open thread – January 10, 2025

by Alison Green on January 10, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. RetirementCat*

    I am interested in experiences with celebrating retirement of remote team members. What have you done or been a part of? What worked well, and what did not work out as anticipated?
    I would hate to see someone just “fade out” after 30 years with the company.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Kudos digital board instead of physical items to sign as a team (guest book, framed photo). But mostly we invite remote workers to attend a celebration in person and then still do a retirement party. We had one remote employee’s retirement party 1.5 months after actual retirement due to travel issues but that was kinda neat to get to hear what they had started to do in retirement too.

    2. ZSD*

      We’ve had Zoom meetings honoring retirees where anyone who would normally be invited to an in-person retirement celebration is invited to the Zoom. You have it at the end of the day, and people are encouraged to have coffee and a donut or whatever during the meeting. The person’s boss usually says a few things about how great the person is, then the retiree says how great it’s been working there for 180 years, and then we just chat casually. It doesn’t work as well as an in-person celebration, of course, but at least the person gets acknowledged and doesn’t have to wonder if anyone has noticed that they’ve left.

    3. Bossypants*

      During COVID, we did a Kudos board and had retirement gifts shipped to the retiree. (Donation collection was through various electronic banking platforms.)We had a Zoom party. We invited the department and related folks as well as non-work people (e.g., family) requested by the retiree. It worked pretty well.

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      Just seconding the Kudos board idea. The system also lets you collect money for a gift card.

      We are hybrid, and it’s a nice way to get everyone involved. (You can have a book made from the board and sent to the person’s home, which I did when a less tech-savvy member of my team retired. It was my gift to her.)

    5. LadyMTL*

      A coworker on my team retired last spring, and though we normally all WFH we went to the office that day to take her out for a nice lunch. We also got her one of those “eternal rose” things, and decorated the desk where we knew she would be sitting with balloons. It went really well!

      Ofc if your team member is 100% remote then an in-person lunch won’t work, but I’d suggest sending a gift to their house and having a group Teams / Zoom meeting the day of their retirement.

    6. Jay (no, the other one)*

      When I retired from a remote job, the team took part of our weekly meeting to say goodbye. There was a funny PowerPoint about my time working there (it really was amusing), a brief appreciation from my boss, and a chance for anyone on the team to say whatever they wanted to say. My previous boss who had taken a promotion also stopped in as a nice surprise. It was lovely and brief. There were no parting gifts unless you count the payout for my unused vacation, and that was fine.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      We had a Zoom party, and sent her a gift with instructions not to open it until the party. We all celebrated, shared stories, she opened her gift – then we all had cake. (I think we also had a cake delivered to her, plus we had one in the office.) She was well liked, so it worked well. I have heard others where it didn’t go so well – no one talking, etc. so YMMV.

    8. Eleri*

      I had one employee retire on my team, and we asked him how he would like to celebrate. He just wanted a small lunch with our immediate team, and he brought his wife. He didn’t want a big party, which was typical of our department. I had lunch catered for our team in a conference room and got him a gift from our approved gift list (public university, can’t go outside the approved lists unless you want to pay for it yourself). I’m glad he chose to do that, because we had an enjoyable time, and he thanked me later and said it meant a lot to him to just hang out with the team – as opposed to a big party where a lot of acquaintances just sort of wander through to get food.

    9. DannyG*

      My team is scattered over 6 states, so in person is out. Our last retirement was about a year ago, we had a 30 minute, all hands zoom meeting during work hours, and just visited, told a few stories, and otherwise just took time with one another. I’m likely to be the next in 2-3 years, and am planning a couple of things for a similar session.

  2. anonthewaterfront*

    Tell me about a time you’ve left a perfectly acceptable job, full of folks who like you and everything you bring to the table, but you need a better culture fit.

    I’m considering an opportunity with a team of colleagues from a past job who know my strengths, work well together, know me and my personal life/needs and support them — this would give me more autonomy and a much better work/life balance to care for my family, plus a super duper short commute, an office (vs my small cube now), and an overall general feeling of warmth and confidence.

    I know how I would frame this to my current job — where I love and believe in the mission but am frustrated with the work barriers and disorganization of our department. But these are people (my immediate supervisor especially) who have gone out of their way to tell me how much they appreciate me, love working together, etc.

    I’m just dealing with the guilt of a transition when, on paper, things aren’t bad, and I don’t want to risk any bridge burning. I know all the talking points — it’s just business, this happens all the time — but it still feels awkward. Someone telling me the logistical probability of a plane crashing does not register the same way when I’m going through turbulence, you know?

    I’d love a little solidarity here, to affirm that it’s going to be weird, but then it’s going to be okay.

    1. NotMyRealName*

      It is weird, but also okay. I left a job that was frustrating, but coworkers I really loved and work that I found interesting and important last summer. The owner of the old company did not value me and coming to this new place where everyone is excited to talk to me and values my experience is a little disorienting! But so, so good.

    2. ThatGirl*

      It may feel a little weird at first! But you’re allowed to make “selfish” decisions – beloved coworkers move on all the time, for a lot of reasons; I am quite sure they will still think of you fondly.

    3. londonedit*

      Just look at the way you’ve written about this new job – your enthusiasm shines off the screen! It’ll definitely be weird, because it’s always weird starting a new job, and the only thing word of caution I might just add would be to go in with your eyes open, because going back to the old team is unlikely to be exactly as it was before. But apart from that, it sounds like you’re really excited about the new opportunity, and a better work/life balance and a really short commute are very important things. Good luck!

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I have done this before–left a job that was a pretty good fit and coworkers I worked well with for a different job. In my case, I was moving to be closer to family, so I told my (soon-to-be former) manager and coworkers “I’ve enjoyed working with you, I’m not leaving because of any issues here, I’m moving to be closer to family.” I felt sad and guilty during my two weeks’ notice, but everyone was very understanding and as soon as I moved/started the new job, those feelings went away entirely.

      Your last sentence is right on the money: it’s going to be weird, but then it’s going to be okay.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Yeah I don’t think this will be as weird as you think! The shorter commute and office are both perfectly normal reasons to take a new job. You can leave on good terms, act maybe a little more regretful than you really are to leave, but gosh that commute, so sad …

    5. Reba*

      “This is what’s right for me” or just tell them it’s a shorter commute ;)

      You can also return all their kind remarks and express how much you have appreciated working with them!

      It’s definitely tough in mission-driven work to step away. I relate to this very hard! They will miss you but they and the company will go on without you.

    6. Rage*

      I think what you wrote in the 2nd paragraph (after the dash) would be all you would need to explain to your current employer. Well, everything but the warm fuzzy at the end. They don’t need to know that. More autonomy, better work/life balance, shorter commute, and office vs cube is sufficient reason to change companies.

    7. FricketyFrack*

      I quit a job that I liked just fine to go back to a job I’d worked at before that I knew I really enjoyed (and only left because of the pandemic), and literally everyone’s attitude was, “well, we’re sad to lose you, but happy for you.” I’ve seen people I worked with there and we still have perfectly good relationships. No bridges burned at all. The only reason bridges would be burned is if you work with total jerks, and since it sounds like you don’t, I can’t imagine anyone would be terribly upset.

    8. On a Break*

      It’s going to be weird, but then it’s going to be ok!

      You have listed very clear practical reasons that people will be able to relate to. This is a thing that happens in jobs – people leave good roles and people all the time because there’s something not right!

      (I’m coming at this as someone who recently left a perfectly acceptable job with nothing lined up, which I found completely nerve-wracking initially to put into motion. But ultimately…it was weird, but then it was okay!)

    9. Tio*

      It’s going to be ok! It might not even be weird at all, honestly! Thinking back on it, have you ever taken a coworker leaving as some kind of indictment against you? That’s because 99% of the time, it’s not about you, and most people know that! Way more goes into having/keeping a job than just “the people here are nice” and honestly, almost all of us recognize that. You will be ok and your coworkers might be sad to lose you but not upset at you, yourself. Enjoy your new job :)

    10. bean counter*

      I have been fortunate enough that every time I’ve left a job, I have been both excited about the new opportunity and sad to be leaving my current work and coworkers. It sounds like you feel like you have to have a “good” reason to leave a job you like but any reason you have is a good reason! Everything to do with announcing that you’re leaving is weird and awkward but hopefully people who you like working with will be happy for you and wish you well.

    11. BlueCanoe*

      Moving on from a job is perfectly normal.. you can appreciate working with everyone at your old job, be thankful for the experience you gained and for what you contributed to your old job, and just generally feel however you feel. Even feel sad about leaving and miss your old coworkers. But sometimes it’s just time to move on.
      I’ve seen Allison advise interviewees to say something like “I really like ABC about my current job and I’m excited about XYZ at your company”

    12. SansaStark*

      I left a job I liked with a boss I loved for a better opportunity. I felt terrible and I did a couple of things to preserve the relationship: give as much notice as I could (3.5 weeks in this case), left a TON of documentation – especially about the things that only I did, and just generally tried to be helpful and proactive to staff about getting as much done as I could and helping them prepare/think ahead for when I’d be gone. I’m still very close to my former colleagues and beyond some very gentle ribbing about my leaving them, it was overall fine and I’m much happier in my new position.

    13. All Het Up About It*

      I can understand the guilt – but you can leave a good thing for a better thing and that’s completely logical. Forget the team you know from the past and the general feeling of warmth and confidence – “much better work/life balance” and shorter commute alone are reasons to move.

      It might be weird – but it honestly might not be!

    14. Ama*

      I kind of did this last summer — although I left to go freelance in a different sector. I had worked at my previous nonprofit employer for 11 years, they really valued my work and I liked the overarching goals of the organization and really valued a lot of the people I worked with (both internal coworkers and the external colleagues my department collaborated with). But it had slowly become clear to me that the Board and senior leadership were never going to commit the resources (staff and budget) to my department to ever get us to a place where we actually had the ability to properly develop new initiatives and had enough staff redundancy that one person leaving, going on leave, or even just having a bad life circumstance where they needed to take a bunch of unexpected PTO put us in scramble mode, and I was tired of constantly fighting to get enough resources to get us to a reasonable work capacity.

      It is a little weird to have this place I was so involved with for over a decade and which I do still want to succeed suddenly be not my problem. (Since I’m freelancing, I do actually do a little consulting work with my old employer but if one of my old coworkers happens to mention something that I would have been very concerned about when I actually worked there, it’s literally not my problem except as far as any questions they ask me on how to handle it.) But I really love the work I’m doing now and so it’s kind of like graduating from high school and being curious how things are going at your alma mater, but with no real desire to participate any longer.

    15. Quinalla*

      It might be a bit weird, but it will be fine. I left a job where things were good for a better opportunity. My boss got it cause I didn’t have much room to grow at my current place, but no major complaints. Generally everyone was like “We’ll miss you and we’re happy for you!” That’s how I always am with folks moving on to something that is a better fit for them. It can feel a little awkward, but honestly less awkward than someone getting fired or someone who sucks who’s leaving and you are thinking “Hooray!” and feeling kind of bad about it.

    16. RagingADHD*

      It’s going to be weird, but it’s going to be okay.

      This is actually how job changes should be in a perfect world – nobody’s toxic, everybody likes working together, but you got a great opportunity. It’s just so common to leave jobs because they’re terrible, it’s easy to forget that something can be good, but an even better opportunity could come along.

    17. chicken sammy*

      As someone who works for a company with great culture and mission, but one that can be disorganized and have a lot of sudden changes from above, and who manages a FABULOUS employee that I would hate to see leave and thank for her patience and good work regularly… I would still say go!

      That’s life, business, and work. If you’ve found something that fits you better, and you’re on good terms with folks, no one would begrudge you doing your thing. If they do, that’s a them thing, not a you thing. It’ll be weird, but you’ll thank yourself later.

    18. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

      I just quit my job yesterday! I love my colleagues, and I really like a lot of the work, and it’s hard to leave a place where people tell you frequently how much they value you, and have for 6 years. For me it was job fit, not culture fit, but I was still feeling very similar feelings of guilt while making the decision.

      The thing about good colleagues is that they want what’s best for you, and the pros from your new potential role sound pretty darn good. Even people who will be sad to have you leave will be stoked to see you happy and excited and doing the right thing for your family. It’s gonna be weird, and then it’s going to be okay :)

    19. Gina*

      It’s definitely going to be OK! I was in this position a few years ago — I decided to leave a job where I was valued (and told so often) and where I really enjoyed my coworkers. There were minor, run-of-the-mill problems, but it was overall great and the only thing that made me move on was wanting to go for a higher salary. It simply wasn’t something they could offer.

      I’ve stayed in touch with many of my former coworkers and, because I’m still in a related field, I send relevant information their way when it comes up. Your colleagues value you — that kind of goodwill doesn’t disappear just because you find a role that’s a better fit for where you are in life right now.

    20. Maotseduck*

      My last job switch fell in my lap. Shorter commute, more money, more in line with what I want to do when I grow up.

      I told my last job I liked working there, but the new job is just a better fit. They didn’t do anything wrong, I wasn’t looking, this new opportunity is just so perfect for me I can’t pass it up.

      They all understood.

    21. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      So first, your feelings are real and valid. But they’re getting in your way and not helping you.

      What’s the guilt about? Do you think they won’t be able to find anyone as good as you if you leave? Do you feel like them being nice to you means you owe them something? I’m guessing it’s this one since you phrase normal appreciation as “going out of their way”.

      I’m also at a loss why you taking another job would burn a bridge. Have you never seen anyone leave under normal circumstances? Have you only ever left when things were awful or only ever seen other people flounce out in a blaze of glory? Or is the company terrible to people who leave and treat them like traitors?

      It isn’t even “just business” – it’s life. Things change, needs change, jobs change. Nobody has done anything wrong by leaving a job or relationship or friendship that isn’t working for them anymore. Do you usually stay long past the bitter end when everyone else has had the sense to leave already – only this time you’re leaving normally and that’s what feels weird?

      I don’t think it will be weird for anyone but you, and it will definitely be okay. Good luck accepting that you deserve nice things just because you want them.

    22. Eleri*

      It will be okay. I moved on from my previous job after about 15 years at my organization. The team I left was a wonderful group of people, and I had a slightly-above-average boss, but I was just burned on the organization as a whole and needed to make a change, especially to a job that was more compatible with my long-term goals (one of which is moving out of state). I framed the move as a “great opportunity” and it all turned out alright. None of them pressed too hard – the ones that understood the pressures of our organization were 100% supportive. So it will be weird, but the weirdness will pass.

    23. Venus*

      I left a boss that I really appreciated and had piles of Reasons lined up (shorter commute, better senior managers, new challenge) but as soon as I started saying that I had a new job he had a big grin and congratulated me. In the end I did give him more details but because he was excited to hear more and not my guilt-fueled defense. A manager who cares about you will be happy for you.

    24. Momma Bear*

      I was once told that if you are leaving when you are done done, you’ve stayed too long. Leave on a high note, when it’s right for you. I would keep it simple – you’ve been presented with a good opportunity for professional growth with more flexibility and a shorter commute. Your supervisor’s actions helped you in the moment but that doesn’t make you beholden to them forever. Of course, only say this when you have a firm, written offer.

      I’ve never regretted taking a good position. I have regretted staying on too long out of a sense of misguided loyalty. It is OK for a job change to be bittersweet.

    25. Emma*

      I have done this before. The day I was giving notice to my manager was nerve wracking. It is normal to feel weird. But I don’t regret it. I’m much more happier in my new job. I was working with amazing people whoses skill I appreciated very much. Before I left, I write each of them a little note of appreciation. It help me with the guilt of leaving them with more work. We were a team of 5, so it was not a lot of trouble to write personnalized notes. But a more generic message of appreciation can work too. If it can reassure you, me leaving for an another opportunity did not burn any bridges.

    26. Priscilla*

      It is going to be okay! I left a work from home job for an opportunity just like that. I was hesitant at first, but once I got here, it has been a great experience. You’ve got to let go.

    27. cat herder*

      Seconding all of the comments giving you permission to take care of yourself and your family first, above all else.
      Your colleagues, while of course they’ll miss you, will be understanding and supportive of you leaving the job for all the reasons you listed. It sounds like the new opportunity is a huge green flag (people you already know will be good work with, a luxury most of us don’t have when starting a new job), better commute and work/life balance, and more autonomy (boo to dysfunctional and/or micromanage-y workplaces). Even good change can be hard sometimes, because change is still change.
      You got this!!

    28. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I did that this year. Pleasant and competent coworkers, frequent positive feedback and appreciation for my work and personality, great pay and benefits, fully remote with no possibility that would change. So many people would kill for this setup. But I wasn’t doing the kind of work I enjoyed (or was hired to do), and what we stood for as well as the process/bureaucracy were grinding against my values every day. So I left! And I’m glad I did. I should have done it much earlier, staying too long burned me out hard and was making me cynical about my career.

    29. Pine Tree*

      This was me last fall. I liked my organization, and my coworkers as individuals. But there were lots of frustrations both from external factors beyond our control, and internal processes and personnel drama that drove me nuts. The mission was great, and I was able to do some good things there, but it was exhausting to get anything done, and I felt like I didn’t have the right personality for the position (they needed a cheerleader, I just wanted to get sh*t done).

      I moved on to a position that is on paper way less interesting, but I am actually learning a lot and also feel like I’m contributing right away. I’m good at this work without having to expend a lot of mental energy. My old job was draining because it was like I was an introvert playing an extrovert at work and then my cup was totally drained by the end of every day. Now I get to be an introvert all day!

      As for my coworkers at my old job – they understood. We were a small group and I had shared my feeling of this position not being the right fit for my personality before, so it wasn’t surprising to them. I think people will understand also if you say you just want a change of scenery. I also think I need a change every 5 years or so. My resume is made up of 4-6 year stints.

  3. Mnemosyne*

    I have a potentially awkward situation I could use some insight on. I am a director at a smallish company (apx 250 employees). Im fairly young for the position (early thirties) and I am 15-20 years younger than the average age of the director and above level staff.

    Recently I’ve begun to notice a concerning pattern with another director who is significantly older than me (I’m guessing late 60s to early 70s) revolving around potential memory loss. Some of it is minor, but there have been a few more significant instances. I also have a family history of dementia/Alzheimers so I’m particularly attuned to this type of situation. I’ve noticed a few other red flags that may point to the problem being more serious (insistence that other people have moved/deleted things, over explaining basic concepts in a way that makes me think he’s more reminding himself, and asking the same question about a program every couple of days). All of these things on their own could just be someone having a rough day, but as a pattern it’s concerning.

    For one of the more recent and extreme instances there were other people around, including the CEO and our HR manager. They clearly took note and afterwards, privately, I made some of my other concerns known to them. They seemed to take the matter seriously.

    I have real and genuine concern for this person, but I don’t have the kind of relationship with them where I feel like I could raise this to them. In addition there’s the age gap which could give the impression of ageism.

    Leaving the emotional part to the side, I feel like I’m now doing the work equivalent of following behind them and making sure they turned off the stove. I’m taking time to double check reports/presentations and make sure they’re acceptable for distribution and I’m taking extra time to send follow up emails after meetings to with my notes because this person isn’t taking any. We both report to the CEO who has noticed this and thanked me for my extra diligence, but it’s not something I’m able/want to do indefinitely.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think this is one of those instances where you bring work-related concerns to your supervisor (the CEO?) and see how they handle it. I can’t tell from what you’ve written if you made it that clear to the CEO how much you’re doing to cover for your coworker.

    2. Bad Janet*

      Could you address it with the CEO and make note of how much extra time your double checking stuff is taking? I wouldn’t lay it out as “I think they are having memory loss/dementia” because it’s not up to you to diagnose them. But since the CEO has already noticed these errors and thanked you for covering it, I would go back to the CEO and say, “I do this double checking because I want things to go smoothly but this has become a pattern and it is taking me significant extra time to double check anything. Could you address this with Director?” That will prompt the CEO to realize you covering this work is not a long term solution and they can address it directly with the Director to find a solution.

    3. Pizza Rat*

      I’m guessing you’re not a physician, but even if you are, you’re not THEIR physician, so it’s not appropriate to speculate that their age + instances of forgetfulness = dementia. “Being particularly attuned to this type of situation” due to family history is not good enough. This person is your peer and colleague. Raise the issues to leadership when and as they occur, but keep your reporting factual and based on business impact (e.g., “As a result of [colleague] missing their outstanding action item, the client deliverable was one week late.”). If you’re resentful about the fact that you’re always taking notes and doing follow-up, say publicly at the outset of the meeting, “[Colleague], can I ask you to take the notes for this one and send out the follow-up?” When it’s not done, report that. Do NOT mention their age or make comments about a “pattern” (that’s the conclusion you came to) – report the problems without your commentary and let the facts speak for themselves. A potential medical cause of the unreliability is almost a red herring relative to the impact it is having – let leadership decide what actions should be taken as a result.

      2. Observer*

        When it’s not done, report that. Do NOT mention their age or make comments about a “pattern” (that’s the conclusion you came to)

        You are conflating two things. Yes, leave the medical speculation out of it. But the pattern is a factual issue and that needs to be named. The LW does not need to perform some routine that then allows them to report what they are seeing. And the specific performance you are suggesting is likely to be quite humiliating to the man. And there is simply no reason for it.

      3. ahb*

        I think the OP was mentioning the medical side more for context – not that they would actually bring it up to the CEO. I agree that they shouldn’t speculate on the cause of the issues, but I do think they should bring up the pattern. They are director-level and that means they *are* leadership, so if they’re seeing a pattern, that’s an important piece.

        1. Mnemosyne*

          You are correct! My plan was never to go to the CEO and say “Hey I have diagnosed Greg with Alzheimer’s” I was more trying to contextualize that I am perhaps more sensitive to memory loss than your average person.

          Me talking to the CEO would look a lot more like “Hey, I’ve been noticing some inconsistencies in Greg’s work. That combined with some of the other things we’ve witnessed have me concerned there’s a larger issue here. I have been doing X,Y, and Z to cover, but that’s a patch not a solution, and I want to flag it for you.”

          1. BurnerPhone*

            One thing to keep in mind – because you have a family history of Alzheimer’s, you may be oversensitive to seeing it in others. I have experienced this first hand. I appreciate that you are trying to look out for this person, but you may also be reading into things too much because you have seen it in family members.

      4. Despachito*

        I think suggesting to the relevant higher-ups that the problem may have a health-related cause is actually kinder than to just point out the mistakes and let them assume there may be negligence and/or malice. It would be the same if the person was suffering from mental illness. I guess the approach of the bosses would be very different – they will have a lot more compassion with somebody who is not intentionally slacking.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Also, “health related” memory issues aren’t necessarily Alzheimers – it could be stress, long-covid, thyroid issues, medications, or any number of reasons. It’s not on the LW to diagnose the cause, but just to notice the pattern of symptoms and refer it to someone who can gently bring it up with the person. The right person to diagnose it is their doctor.

          1. LBD*

            Even something as easily dealt with as low iron levels or a bladder infection can cause cognitive symptoms. The hard part is making sure that there is some kind of medical oversight.

          2. banana pudding*

            Exactly! I had a similar issue or a behaviour pattern in an older colleague (and I do have a medical background), and encouraged the colleague to get checked out. All of my casual observations seemed like possible early dementia was actually a brain tumour.

    4. Jane*

      At this point, you need to pass the baton to the person whose job it is to deal with this issue, which is the CEO. Don’t get roped into assuming administrative or caregiver duties at work for someone you’re not comfortable broaching the issue with, simply by virtue of being a) present; b) a woman (I’m assuming here, though I could be wrong); and c) familiar with those types of issues.

      If you step back from the very real human element and look at this as a work-related problem, you both report to the CEO. Now’s the time to explain to them that you can’t keep doing what you’ve been doing, and allow them to take the work-related action that needs to happen, explain the visible problems with their work, allow them to offer medical leave, retirement possibilities, all the things that you’re not equipped to offer. In the long run this is more of a kindness to the person with memory issues than simply picking up behind them at work ever could be.

    5. Throwaway Account*

      If you brought this up before you started double-checking their reports and sending meeting notes, I would have said not to do it. It is great that the CEO and HR manager noticed some instances, but now you have made the problem your responsibility, and you are solving it for them. They no longer have to take any action.

      I always advise folks to “pass the pain up the chain” to those who can take some action. They won’t do anything if it does not cause them any issues.

      I think you are right, you cannot do more than bring it to the attention of others, as you have done. Now you are going to have to go to them and let them know you cannot sustain the extra diligence (maybe emails with meeting notes is something you can continue, but double-checking his work is not?).

      It was very kind of you to do the extra diligence!

      1. Mnemosyne*

        Yeah, normally I wouldn’t have gone back and done the double check, but it’s a joint report between our departments that really my group is the owner of and sending it out with mistakes would become my problem even if the mistakes weren’t my own and I really don’t want to be playing the blame game later. I always give things a cursory glance before they go out, but a couple of months ago I started to find more and more issues in his sections that weren’t there before.

        I’ve pointed them out to him directly so I’m not just fixing it and moving on, and I’ve sat down with him multiple times to explain what needs to happen. If it was just the report issue I probably would just assume he hadn’t been giving it proper time/care. It’s the combo of everything that has me questioning what’s up.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          You definitely need to tell the CEO that you started noticing a lot more issues in your coworker’s parts of the report a couple of months ago, and that as a result, you’ve had to double-check their work to ensure that the work product your team owns is up to par. You should let the CEO know, “I understand the buck ultimately stops with me on this report, but the time I’ve had to put in to correct Coworker’s work on this is more than I can really spare given my time commitments with X, Y, and Z. How do you think I should manage this going forward?” A good manager will realize they need to have a word with Coworker, and will approach them with the facts and say, “what’s up?” Maybe your Coworker is going through a bad patch for personal reasons. Maybe they’ve checked out. Maybe there is a medical issue. But you can’t keep covering for them indefinitely.

        2. Observer*

          @WantonSeedStitch is right. Bring it up without getting into the medical issue and focus on how to manage the problem.

          Now, it’s possible that the CEO will have a word, and then, depending on what happens manage him out. That can take time – how will things be handled in the interim. But maybe the CEO decides to take a different tack here. But whatever happens, there is not going be a magic “talk to the CEO and the problem gets fixed immediately.”

          So what you really want to bake into your conversation is the question of “How do we get from here to there?” ~There~ being a situation where your time is not being eaten up by this work. Probably there won’t be an answer in that conversation, but you want to make sure that there is a follow up to discuss next steps.

    6. Yankees fans are awesome*

      “We both report to the CEO who has noticed this and thanked me for my extra diligence, but it’s not something I’m able/want to do indefinitely.”
      —-

      As others have noted, you’re taking on responsibility that isn’t yours to take.

      Stop.

      Today.

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      One thing I would say, is I vaguely remember (here? somewhere?) an employee was clearly getting dementia (the whole department could tell), but the employer ended up letting the employee quit?retire?terminating? and then the employee’s wife ended up with him at home, very obviously in the throes of mid stage dementia, with no income. If the employer had put him on disability, it would have been way better for the employee’s family financially.
      Sorry this was poorly written. I remember the overall gist of the situation, but not many of the details. It stayed with me since I tend to handle HR duties in addition to my regular ones and I didn’t ever want to make that same mistake. Not sure how to actually handle this IRL though.

      1. Despachito*

        This is the exact reason why I would prefer to suggest the issue may be health-related. The benefits of it (kinder approach to the employee, disability vs firing) in my eyes largely prevail over the exaggerated political correctness where even mentioning possible health problem is considered a no-no.

    8. Aly_b*

      Because you’re at a director level, I do think you have more responsibility than a typical employee to keep an eye on things, even outside of your direct management chain, that impact the company overall. Under the circumstances, I think you’ve gotta keep doing what you’re doing to some extent.

      Anything that can reasonably become the CEO’s problem should be sent over to him. And you should continue the conversation with the CEO and make sure he is very aware and taking action.

  4. Tradd*

    Low stakes, but fun since a lot of us enjoy stationery. What is your favorite notebook for work use? I don’t need to keep my notes permanently or for project use, so notebook use is more to keep things in one place and to reduce post-it note use. I like the spiral bound 5″x7″ ruled notebooks you can find at any big box store. They’re fairly cheap. I like that they’re small. I don’t like stuff taking up a lot of space on my desk (I already have to work with files).

    1. ashie*

      5×7 college-ruled 2-subject Five-Star! Cheap, sturdy, good quality paper, tears nicely. *chef’s kiss!*

      1. Our Business Is Rejoicing*

        Another 5×7 Five Star fan, although mine are single subject. I also get the kind with the pockets in the front, which allow me to tuck in any scribbled notes from elsewhere.

      3. MailOrderAnnie*

        I second that emotion. I have a 5 Star notebook at my elbow right now – I like taking written notes before I write them up online. I love my notebooks.

    2. snowglobe*

      I too am a fan of spiral bound – though strangely enough, despite being left-handed I cannot get on with reporter-style top-bound notebooks, which you think we would be easier. I’m one size up from you, I think (7×10). I tried using those ones with tabs for different sections built in but moved away from them when I was finding one section always ran out too quickly.

      In an ideal world I would find a notebook which would last me the year. But 10months in I’ve generally filled mine and need to start a new one.

      Notebooks are clearly a controversial topic in my office. I just checked the stationary cupboard and we have 5 different types to cater to everyone’s needs!

      1. Tradd*

        My office only supplies letter sized pads of paper, which drive me bats. We have some freebie notebooks from vendors, but they’re all too big. I supply my own. No one else in the office uses the small ones I like. Frankly, I see a lot of people using scrap paper or many, many post-it notes!

      2. JFC*

        I’ve seen someone in another department literally cry when the office manager didn’t order the exact notebooks she wanted.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I love those cheap spiral notebooks also. They’re so convenient. Especially the thick ones with tabs for different subjects, because then I can divide up my random notes vs my phone messages vs my reminders, etc.

    4. Roy G. Biv*

      6 x 9, spiral bound on top, steno type pad. The office I inherited had a stash of them, and they worked great for daily notes, so I adopted them as my note pad of choice.

      1. This Old House*

        Same. My first office job supplied these to everyone, and I got used to them. I have to make a special request to order them at my current job, but I don’t like any of the styles we tend to have available nearly as well, so I go out of my way to get steno pads. (And honestly, if I can’t order them with office supplies anymore, which might be the case for budgetary reasons soon, I will buy my own.)

      2. Mockingjay*

        I love steno pads. Staples has quad ruled steno pads which I adore for my task/to do lists – personal and work. The squares are perfect for checkboxes and the small size of the grid helps me write neatly.

        My current work fave? The steno-sized Focus Notes with the open Cue column and the lined Notes column. We are assigned tasks per multiple projects, so the Cue column is perfect to write the project identifier and then I can list the associated tasks and progress notes in the lined Notes column.

      3. Ginger Cat Lady*

        I use and love these, too. Would even love to find a padfolio for them so they look a little nicer for client meetings. Mine have two columns, left side is my to-do list, right side a scratch pad or where I write things that interrupt my work flow. So if I’m doing some writing and my brain decides to remind me to ask Bob about something, I can jot it down and tell my brain I don’t need it in short term memory any more.

    5. FricketyFrack*

      I’m a fan of the Prism notepads – the paper is a little bit soft and it makes them really nice to write on. I also like anything that comes in fun colors because office supplies can be very monochromatic and kind of depressing.

      1. Re Flauta*

        I love the Decomposition Book designs. They’re pricier than a lot of the suggestions on this thread but they’re so pretty and it makes me happy to write in them. Just finished donuts and started in on moths, with rainforest animals waiting in the wings

    6. Wilbur*

      I like an A5 soft cover notebok with a dot or grid pattern, Rhodia is good but I’ve been grabbing the Paperage brand at half the price. I mostly use mine for sketching out ideas, notes, and Eisenhower matrices. I used to use a bunch of post it notes for a kan ban style productivity system, but it looked like a huge mess on my desk. I use a passport or field notes pocket notebook for personal notes. I grabbed some fountain pens recently and have really been enjoying those. Monteverde Ritma Gala and a Jinhao 993 shark pen.

      1. L*

        The Jinhao Sharks are great, I love them! I recommend picking up a Pilot Metropolitan as well – their medium nibs are nice, and they come in some funky colours.

        I have a Rhodia notebook that I really like to use with my fountain pens. The paper is smooth and thick enough that there’s minimal to no bleed through, even with my broader nibs.

      2. Kate Lathrop*

        Staology 365 notebooks on Amazon are amazing! Not crazy cheap but the quality is top notch. And the paper is fountain pen friendly.

      3. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Very fond of the Platinum intro nib (Platinum Preppy, Prefounte, and Plaisir all have the same nib, depending on your aesthetic preferences). They write like butter and take forever to dry out.

      4. Raia*

        I’m currently using a Rhodia A5 dot grid! The fountain pens I use are the Kaweco Sport and TWSBI Eco, and I love writing my daily tasks and journaling with those in the Rhodia.

    7. Tio*

      I don’t like spirals because I feel like the spirals themselves get caught on stuff in my bags all the time. I like the flat spine ~5x7ish size notebooks with a nice fake leather cover. We don’t use paper much in the office anymore but I love having them at conferences and stuff where I can take notes.

      1. JFC*

        I have one of those and I really like it. It has lasted me much longer than I expected, too. Most of my work is digital, but I do occasionally need to take written notes. It’s nice and sturdy, plus looks professional.

    8. bean counter*

      I never use the notes pages in my planner so I always rip them out and clip them together with a binder clip. One thing that’s nice about the loose pages is that it’s easy to group together notes about the same thing that were written at different times.

      1. All Het Up About It*

        Oh I kind of love this idea! I DIY notebook. I might do this. I have so many Day Designer Planners and I definitely didn’t use the notes pages there, so they’d work together nicely.

      2. Milo*

        Yes I do this too for notes. Usually I’ll take paper that isn’t needed but isn’t confidential (out of date SDSs for example), tear them into quarters, and keep them together with a binder clip at the top.

    9. Jenny*

      I really like Miquelrius 5×7 notebooks. They are a little nicer quality than standard ones, but not super expensive.

    10. Three Owls in a Trench Coat*

      I like those as well as an alternative to sticky notes. I usually bring one with me whenever I walk away from my desk (my colleagues know that if I don’t write something down, it’s like we never even discussed it).

      For events like conferences, I prefer a disc-bound notebook system. I added pocket inserts for handouts and bought the hole punch to organize all my travel documents, agendas, and registration items. It’s also easy to flip the cover around like a spiral note. Removing/adding papers is nearly silent compared to a 3-ring binder.

    11. Ann O'Nemity*

      I like the Leuchtturm1917 hardcover notebook (A5, ruled). Not a fan of the higher prices, so I ordered a bunch direct from the manufacturer on a crazy sale when they discontinued some colors.

      1. Lefty*

        This is my go-to! They look so pretty, so it brings me joy to write in them, and while I see the benefit of spirals that you can tear pages out– as a lefty, can’t do it!

    12. Lucky*

      I love this one kind of notebook I get on Amazon – spiral bound, A5 size, lined & has a header for the date, day of the week & weather. Search “EUSOAR Spiral Ruled Notebook, A5”. About $3 a piece if you buy a 6-pack.

    13. gold fibre*

      i just had to fiercely google “green project notebook meetings” because i’ve used the same ones forever and really didn’t know what brand they were — they’re Ampad Gold Fibre 7.25×9.5in. Subject line at the top and to-do space on the left that I can use for actual to-dos, doodling, writing my own phone number while I’m giving it to someone on the phone (i cant be the only one who does this) — it’s simple and i love it.

    14. Spreadsheet Queen*

      Another vote for the 5×7 college-ruled spiral notebooks. The ones that have the perforations if you need to tear a sheet out (to file if you still do paper files – whether temporary or on-going, to shred, to make a scan copy for the electronic files, etc).

      Although there are all these cool quirky lined notebooks you can get with funny covers that are like “All the things I was right about” or “Great ideas I had while drinking wine”. I got a couple for my boss for Xmas. (Yeah, I know you don’t “gift up” but they were $5 each or less, so I don’t care.) But to get some similar ones that are spiral, you’re paying nearly $20 per notebook, and I’m not sure I’d like the non-spiral ones so I haven’t gotten any for myself.

      The important thing is that they will fit in my purse if I go to a meeting or something.

    15. UAdmin*

      I’m a fan of the 5″x7″ spiral, too. My favorites have a hard cover. I used to be able to find them in our university bookstore, but now I have to order them online. Miquelrius is the brand I prefer.

    16. Jshaden*

      I use the Traveler’s passport sized system with three inserts, an undated weekly, dot grid, and lined for consolidating key calendar items and quick short term notes. For more extensive notetaking, I like the spiral bound Mnemosyne in A5, and use a Leuchtturm 1917 for personal journaling. All are great with fountain pens because fountain pens are fun.

      1. Jshaden*

        Oh, and I’m dot grid or grid all the way for larger notebooks. Engineer by schooling, and it helps me organize into columns.

      2. Maria*

        Another fountain pen lover here! What’s your current favorite?

        I like the notebooks you mentioned, but my favorite have been the Clairefontaine spiral-bound, at least when I was working in an office. I WFH now and I really like the Endless dot grid notepads with the tear-off pages.

        1. L*

          Not OC, but my current favourite is actually a handmade pen by a local creator – Koka-Bora Creations. Second place is my purple Pilot Metropolitan, with a medium nib.

          Using an A5 Rhodia notebook for my work bullet journal, with a dot grid. Home notebook is an A5 Leuchtturm notebook, also with a dot grid.

          1. Maria*

            I’m really loving my handmade pens right now too – the one I’ve got today is by Carolina Pen Company. Got it at the San Francisco Pen show.

            I use a Leuchtturm as a sort of sewing journal. My favorite notebooks for writing in are with Tomoe River Paper, but that’s precious and I don’t use it for work purposes. Haha!

            1. Lewis*

              I was going to save my notebooks but now I use Hobonichi grid notebooks at work all the time. A5, hundreds of sheets, and I can use my fountain pens with them too. It helps get me through the day. One notebook will last me 9-10 months, so it’s a savings if i compare it to Rhodia use.

        2. Scholarly Publisher*

          TWSBI Ecos. They hold a lot of ink, write easily even if I haven’t opened the cap in a few weeks, and just plain work without a lot of fiddling.

          1. Maria*

            Ecos are so great! I own probably too many of those. I’ve got a blue one inked right now with a sparkly blue ink. (Herbin Kyanite du Nepal, I think.)

        3. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Platinum’s intro nib, which shows up in the Preppy, Prefounte, and Plaisir pens. They write like butter and take forever to dry out. I’m normally an extra fine nib enthusiast (01 Microns and 0.28mm Signos) but for fountain pens I actually prefer the Platinum 03 (fine) and 05 (medium). Shows off the fun colors better.

    17. Reba*

      I love the Maruman Mnemosyne notebooks for spiral bound, as well as the Leuchtturm soft cover notebooks for project notes. I also use mini sized versions for when I’m working in the field.

      For my to do list I like a top-bound steno style, and I try to buy varied and pretty ones.

      1. Fountain Pen User*

        I love love love the Maruman Mnemosyne notebook paper – it’s fantastic with fountain pens, and there are so many different sizes you’re sure to find one to fit your needs/budget.

      2. LBD*

        I really like to use a planner as a notebook too! I checked your link, and those are really lovely planners.
        What I often end up using is a Five Star 3×5 flip top note book, because it fits in my pocket and I need to have something with me all the time. As well, I carry a pen or pencil, a phone, and a large ring of keys. I also curse the designers of the pockets in women’s jeans at regular intervals, and the people who decided cell phones needed to get bigger. What is with the horizontal pockets anyways? They force all of my pocket contents to sit right at the crease of my hip and make it difficult to crouch down without loosing everything out the top, except for the keys, which migrate towards my crotch and force me to grope myself in front of customers whenever I need to pull my keys out.
        Ahem. Rant over. I really do like a nice notebook! I bought one with artwork by a printmaker and illustrator named Angela Harding, and I think I will keep that one for planning artworks and craft projects. And one year I bought a Banksy planner that I still have, with patterns that I worked out for some projects.

    19. Tea Monk*

      Ive used moleskines, Ive used fake moleskines from Amazon, might try a midori- I’m using those for my personal diary though. Im too disorganized to have spiral bound ( remember when you were a kid and the spiral got all janked?)

    21. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      I got a Five Star 3-ring binder that has a soft spine and a more notebook-y feel for school and it blew my mind. Put as much or as little paper as you want in it! Wide ruled? College ruled? Quad? Blank? If it’s letter sized and it’s got three holes in it, it fits! Put dividers in it, or not! Plain, with pockets, whatever! I love this thing.

    22. Derivative Poster*

      Law ruled notebooks for the extra wide margin! They’re hard to find so I’ve ended up ordering a case every 5 years or so. Roaring Spring is the brand I get.

    25. ArlynPage*

      I like a big notebook because I don’t always feel like I can get all of the thoughts I want to keep together on one 5″x7″ page and like an 8.5″ x 11″ at least. My favorite brand is Clairfontaine; it’s so smooth and feels so good to write on. My favorite pen brand is Schneider, and the notebook+pen combo is VERY satisfying.

    26. Rosyglasses*

      I love Fabriano notebooks, 8×11 blank spiralbound, and it has a beautiful linen cover in different colors. I have probably 20 of them spanning over the course of my past and current job – and sadly only can go to an art store to get them – but that’s a small price to pay. :-)

    27. Lucy P*

      8.5×11 college ruled single subject for day-to-day stuff. 5-subject, same size, for a long-term project with many outside players.

      Used to decorate my covers with scrapbook paper and scrapbooking accessories, but now I just aim for fun colors.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        I like to pick up notebooks when they’re on sale for back to school. I probably have too many now, but when they’re 4 for a dollar or 2 for a dollar, I have a hard time staying away from temptation.

    28. Pinta Bean*

      I love any notebook with graph paper; these tend to be more expensive than the same notebook with lined paper. A while back someone accidentally ordered a box of the graph paper kind; now I’m down to the last one and I’m going to live life with abandon and request that the office order me more of them, regardless of the cost! (This is one of those things where I am in a senior position and have a large discretionary budget but it still *feels* weird to buy more expensive notebooks just because I like them. I spend much more money, on stupider stuff, all the time!)

    29. Honeybadger*

      Oh dear. I feel a bit called out here. My favorite notebook is all of them. Legal pads, grid pads, steno pads, spiral bound notebooks of all sizes. And sticky notes. Big ones, little ones, lined ones, hot pink ones. At any given point in time, I have on my desk AT LEAST two different sized notepads and two sizes of post it notes that are actively in use. On the shelf next to me is overstock. Sometimes, a task requires a brand new, untouched pad for proper thinking. Sometimes, a note needs to be on a burnt orange, 5×7 lined post it note to count. This inventory does not include what I have for personal use. That’s an entirely separate supply despite the fact that I WFH 100% of the time.

      2. so many notebooks*

        “My favorite notebook is all of them.”

        A thousand times agree. I just love shopping for and buying notebooks. I was up to 20+ new notebooks when I realized I had way more than I ever needed and donated all of them to the basic needs center of a nearby college. (So I can buy more, ha ha ha. For the kids :) )

    30. Always Tired*

      I was getting the moleskin cahier in the large/A5 size (so half sheet) but swapped to knock offs since I don’t need perfect archival paper for a scratch pad. They have sewn binding, cardboard cover, and rounded corners, which I didn’t think would matter til I found it made them much easier to shove into my bag. Also, no matter the notebook, I love a grid/square rule. Makes indents and splitting the page and tables and sketches much easier. I use them at work (an turned several people on to them) and at home.

    31. NotebookNerd*

      Okay, so apparently I’m a super nerd here but my go to notebook for work is a RocketBook Fusion Plus https://getrocketbook.com/products/fusion-plus-1 It’s an erasable notebook that you can upload to your Google Drive, email etc. It has a monthly planner, and grid and lined pages as well as a couple to do lists. I get them and use them for a few years until I destroy the cover.

      It meets my need to take notes in meetings but then upload them to my email or notes so I can actually remember to do what I need to.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I was gonna say, I write on paper so rarely that I think I’ve gone through a single pad of post it notes in ten years of working remotely, but I just gave all my team leads Rocketbooks as a Christmas/goodbye present because I love mine. (I’m changing departments after today.)

      2. Hatchet*

        I was hoping someone else would also share the Rocketbook love!
        I bought a few of the Rocketbook Core notebooks to use mainly for work conferences and really like them. (Though I’m also really bad about uploading the images so I can reuse the notebook…) I thought that I’d use the larger letter sized notebook more, but the executive size (6×8) works really well when balancing it on your lap in a lecture hall.

      3. Kwsni*

        I’m a vet tech, I take all of my rounding notes on one since I rarely need them for more than a day or two.

        I also take all of my continuing education notes in one and keep them on Google drive for easy access when I need it.

    32. HE Admin*

      I use an A5 journal-bound 5mm dot grid notebook. It is the superior writing vessel and I will die on this hill. The 5mm grid is tighter than college ruled, which still feels too big for me, and the the dot grid makes the paper function as blank, lined, and gridded all at once.

    33. Momma Bear*

      I use a 6″x9″ steno pad with yellow paper and the spiral on top. I prefer spiral bound over perforated or any other kind of binding. I will also use small hard cover journal style books, but I keep coming back to the steno pad. I also like the line in the middle – I use one side for meeting notes and one side for action items. What matters more for me is a good pen. I’m currently using a freebie and I wish I knew what kind of pen it actually was to get more.

      1. Always Tired*

        I did the entirety of college on those steno pads. People looked at me like I was insane but they were the perfect width for how I take notes and fit in smaller bags so I wasn’t tied to a giant backpack.

    35. Tammy 2*

      I use one notebook per year and like to treat myself to a fun or pretty one. This year I’m trying a bigger size (B5) and the jury’s still out on whether I will like carrying something this big around/use the extra writing space.

      I don’t take a lot of handwritten notes but I like paper for my to-do lists/work planning, and I like to keep track of those so I can see what I’ve done through the year. I do a 2-page spread for each week and I like to write out the dates for all the weeks at the beginning of the year (so I can put an item on my to-do list for months away). I’ll also jot stuff down like things I want to mention in meetings, my rough schedule, etc.
      I have some pages leftover for notes or lists for longer-term projects, but my substantive notes are typed and on OneDrive.

    36. I Have RBF*

      I like the 5×7 to 5.5×8.5 spiral bound notebooks, either ruled or dot grid. I prefer the hardcover ones, but I will use the cardboard cover ones. They are big enough to write full sentences on a line or two, but small enough to let other things exist on my desk.

      My current favorite is a “Mikro” spiral bound, hardcover, 6.69×9.44 inch, with grid pages that have a date blocfk at the top, and are perforated (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09FFVY26X/). I also like the Mnemosyne notebooks, the A5 spiral bound with lined pages that have a date and title block at the top(https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01234WPQW/).

    37. Sharon*

      Blue Sky weekly/monthly planner. I like that the daily sections are big enough for a to-do list and a note or two, but not so big that everything gets lost or can’t be accomplished in a day. I’m trying to switch to One Note this year – we will see how it goes.

    38. Tradd*

      Since personal use notebooks are being mentioned, the Maruman Septcouleur are my current favorites. Coil loop “spiral” binding, square grid paper, and a soft cover. You can get them on Amazon for about $10. I have several in different colors for separate purposes.

    39. Kwsni*

      My notes for work don’t usually need to last more than a few days, so I use a reusable RocketBook. You do have to use it with specific (Frixion) pens, but I was using them already. You can scan the pages with an app and send them to whatever platform you prefer. The pages wipe clean with water if you use the pens.

  5. Claire*

    I was talking with a manager of another department, “John” and my coworker, “Jane”, walked in the room. (Jane is married and in her 50s and I’m in my 30s.) Jane looked in our direction and we said good morning to her. Jane kept looking over at us again and I looked at her. Jane then made a comment about how I’ve been coming in “too early” and since I live near work, I should “come in later”. Jane made a similar comment yesterday about how I came in “before her”.

    I’m not sure if Jane is just very awkwardly making conversation or competitive? She also seems to be competitive over male attention. It’s annoying. I’ve also noticed that she has to interrupt me when I’m talking to male colleagues. (She doesn’t say anything to me when I’m alone or talking to women.)

    I want to say something, but am not sure what. Any advice is appreciated.

    1. snowglobe*

      The next time she makes a comment about you coming in early, you could try saying something like “I know! You’ve said that before – I just like to get a headstart on the day.” Said with a smile and a light-hearted tone, hopefully it would come across as “what a good joke we all share” (rather than peeved or sarcastic) but still might give her the nudge to stop commenting?

    2. MCL*

      Honestly I’d probably pause my conversation at her interruption and fully turn my attention to her (making it awkward! Hopefully for her!) and say a deadpan “okay.” And then deliberately return to my previous conversation. You have acknowledged her comment, but it’s a ridiculous thing to say so don’t give it any more thought or air time. You can respond “okay.” to this kind of comment till the end of time.

      I probably would also pause if she interrupted me during a 1:1 conversation (where another person is clearly not invited, not like, a casual convo in the lunch room or something) and ask her if she needs anything and then deliberately return to the conversation. If she continues to interrupt you can tell her that you’re in the middle of working on something with the other person.

      1. MCL*

        That said… maybe before I deployed this strategy I’d talk to her first. Say something like, I noticed you’re commenting on my arrival time a lot lately, and maybe you’re just making conversation but it’s starting to make me wonder what’s going on. My schedule is set and our manager is happy with it, so can we agree not to comment on one another’s schedules?”

    3. londonedit*

      Very odd, and I’d just try not to engage with it. If she comments again, I’d say something like ‘Yep, I’m an early bird!’ and then turn your attention to something else. If she really won’t stop, you could try something like ‘Jane, I don’t know what to tell you – I get in early so I can get a head start on the day. I’m not interested in coming in later’, and if she still won’t get the message you could try ‘You keep saying that, and I really don’t know what to tell you – this is the time I get to work. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop commenting on it’.

      1. MsM*

        +1. You could even throw in a “I’m not sure how this affects you” or “that’s not your decision to make,” but save the latter as a last resort before you need to talk to someone higher up to get her to back off.

    4. Brandon*

      Conclude that Jane is competitive and create a plan.

      As suggested, try a light hearted response. If that doesn’t work, ask Jane for clarification of her behavior. Repeat one or both suggestions as often as needed. And yes, it will be upsetting if you have have to keep doing it.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      The “too early” comments can be handled with the “yup, I like to get here and settled before the day starts too” sort of response.

      The interrupting is more of an issue. Especially if she’s inserting herself into conversations to cut you off or bring up off topic things like the “too early” thing. That can be extinguished by a combination of ignoring, not responding, and “as I was saying”.

    9. Pay no attention...*

      Was Jane’s tone of voice serious and scolding or light-hearted? I wouldn’t suggest engaging in anything that resembles defending or explaining your schedule even if it’s said light-heartedly. That tends to reinforce the people who think you owe them an explanation, when clearly you don’t. Make your response all about Jane or her odd comment and not your schedule:
      “Hmmm, thank you for your concern.”
      “You can arrive any time you like Jane—I’m not keeping track.”
      “Ha ha ha — did you want some time management tips?”

      1. Claire*

        It was awkward like she wasn’t going to say anything, but then decided to when John was there. (I saw her earlier and she didn’t say anything to me, but I was by myself.)

      3. Suggestions*

        [Playfully] “What, you’re not tracking my movements, are you?”
        [Neutrally] “What a strange thing to say.”

    10. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Jane clearly needs to mind her own business, but your mention of her age and marital status strikes me as really weird, like you’re looking to cast blame based on her being old and jealous of you for being younger or something. Focus on the problem, not on her demographics.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Consider why you think that particular background info is relevant here. The only way it possibly could be is if it were “Jane’s 22 and new to the workforce and doesn’t know norms yet”.

          1. Random Bystander*

            Well, it does factor into the weirdness.

            Situation:
            Jane sees Claire, but Claire isn’t involved in conversation with anyone. Jane doesn’t make the weird remarks.

            Situation:
            Jane sees Claire, but Claire is talking to “Sue”. Jane doesn’t make the weird remarks.

            Situation:
            Jane sees Claire, but Claire is talking to John. Jane makes the weird remarks.

            It’s part of a pattern, and it does seem reasonable to think if there is something going on that is related to the demographics of Jane and Claire.

      2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        If people don’t give context, they get scolded for not sharing enough. If they give context, they get scolded for not focusing on the problem.

        How about you take your own advice and focus on the problem?

    11. Momma Bear*

      Is it always just about the time or is it ever about who you are meeting with? Is she thinking you’re sneaking in early for extra face time with a coworker or manager?

      I have coworkers that come in anywhere from 7AM t0 10 AM. We have core hours but nobody cares outside of those times. Is your job similarly flexile? I only mention anything if it’s out of the norm and if we are friendly. Without knowing her why it’s hard to know if you should even care.

      1. Claire*

        She’s only commented on the time. She’ll look at who I’m talking to, but never says anything.

    12. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I’m a big fan of ‘it’s not real until you say something out loud with words’ – what’s up with Jane? Doesn’t matter, she hasn’t said it out loud with words, so it’s not real/not your problem yet. Respond as though she’s commenting on the weather – breezy, cheerful, without substance.
      Jane: “You were here too early.”
      You, cheerfully: “No, it’s fine”
      – “I like early”
      – “Yep!”
      – “Hmm?”

    13. Government worker*

      Is she competitive over men or is she interrupting because she thinks she’s somehow “chaperoning” you? When I was ~30 I worked in an office where a woman my mom’s age warned me about talking “too much” to male colleagues.

    14. BigLawEx*

      The male attention part, I don’t have a comment on. I don’t play those games and always ignore them.

      However, I’m an early riser and love to come in early. Many people have commented as if I’m trying to one-up them or something. I know we live in a society (US) where early is conflated with virtue, so I think I get it. But it’s also annoying as I wake up super early and like to get going. Even in the face of the competition (which in law can be unnecessarily fierce), I usually just comment on being a lark or an early bird or whatever, ad nauseum, and make it boring for them. Make the juice not worth the squeeze for her.

  6. Amber Rose*

    People who work in physically demanding jobs, what kinds of programs do you have to help prevent muscle injury? Our drivers are susceptible to leg pain from hopping in and out of the trucks, and both drivers and warehouse staff are reporting very high numbers of pulled back and shoulder muscles. I want to help them, but I’m struggling to think of ways to reduce the strain.

    For everyone else, please wish me luck. I took 6 classes this semester, and I now have a full time job. I’m definitely feeling like I might have bit off more than I can chew with this one, but I really want to finish this program ASAP.

    1. ashie*

      Your insurance company likely has some kind of injury prevention program and/or resources. It’s in their interest for your staff to stay healthy.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The only insurance is government insurance, and they mostly just like gouging us. Trust me, it’s not in their interest for anyone to be healthy. They are making bank off our premiums.

        1. Tio*

          That may be valid, but a lot of insurance premiums actually do have coverage for things like basic gym memberships included – because it costs them less for you to stay healthy than to cover your claim. Despite that, they don’t necessarily advertise it. If you want to help, I suggest pulling your insurance plans, and reading very carefully through the fine print on coverage. (Similarly, auto insurance often covers windshield glass damage, but hides that info and people don’t realize it. Read your insurance details very carefully, everyone!)

          Secondly, places like Athletico will often do a consultation for free, and then be able to get a recommendation for physical therapy in for people who aren’t fully injured yet. Since the consultation is free, you can quietly suggest to the drivers they get evaluated, which might lead to them getting some therapy and mobility exercise training covered.

          Finally, this one is probably most unlikely, but I’m assuming your company won’t cover or provide any kind of aid devices like back/shoulder braces of back support cushions in the vehicles – but if you think there might be a chance and have some capital, you could consider asking.

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          This is in a USA context, so might not apply to you, but I’d look into your worker’s comp insurance, not just your health insurance. Worker’s comp is what has to pay out when someone gets injured, so they’re generally going to have suggestions on how to keep that from happening and lists of best practices that they’d like you to follow.

        3. Observer*

          They are making bank off our premiums.

          Not if they have to pay out!

          If you are in the US, your disability and worker’s comp carriers are generally for profit companies, even though you are required by law to carry the insurance. And the only way they get to make a *profit* is by keeping payouts as low as possible. Reducing injuries is one effective way to do that. It is a LOT less expensive for them to provide some help than to have higher pay out rates.

          1. Amber Rose*

            I’m not in the US. Worker’s comp isn’t for profit here, but companies with poor performance get hit with massive surcharges. We’re at 60% I think.

            Anyways they typically don’t offer much. We’ve actually had to hire consultants to help us deal with them because they are so difficult to work with.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yep lol. Fortunately for me one of those is just a weekend long seminar, so it’s really more like five classes. And four of the remaining classes are asynchronous, so I can do whatever, whenever. But I anticipate some late nights in my future working on papers.

    3. Generic Name*

      I work for a construction company. Before each shift, as part of the daily safety meeting, everybody does stretches.

    4. NotMyRealName*

      You need to put your life in survival mode for the semester. Outsource and simplify everything you can.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      Helper tools. Stepstools for the drivers maybe? For the folks reporting pulled back and shoulder muscles, what are they doing when they pull them? Moving cargo?

      Stretches are helpful and I agree with them 100% but it’s also worthwhile seeing if you can reduce the cause of the injuries.

    6. SBDavin*

      I used to work at a hotel, and each morning after a pre-shift review, all the housekeepers would do stretches/dance. Is there a local university nearby that has an exercise science program? You may want to get in touch with them to see if perhaps the department may have faculty member who can perhaps advise? Or even the athletics program has athletic trainers who might be able to assist.

      Also, maybe a local physical therapy group or occupational therapy may be able to provide guidance for a small consulting fee? If not, then the insurance company should have someone or a program that can provide a basic stretching exercise regimen.

      Good luck with your course load!

    7. allhailtheboi*

      Could the company employ an occupational health professional to see if any adjustments could be made? Also if people are hurting themselves lifting heavy loads, there exists LOTS of science and training around the safest way to carry loads.

      1. Bruce*

        Lifting injuries is a huge red flag, it sounds like they need more mechanical aids like dollies and lifts, as well as better training. As for hurting themselves getting in and out of the truck, I wonder if training can help with that? A couple of years ago I slipped on the stairs twice in a month, I had to tell myself “use the railing, that is what it is there for!!!” and also put down traction treads, no slips since. So basic common sense combined with improved work surface…

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I was put through a safe lifting class before I became a nurse’s aide (summer job in college) and boy, has it worked out well for me.

    8. My Brain is Exploding*

      Two things: find someone expert in ergonomics (an occupational therapist would be good) to come in and evaluate the situation and make suggestions. Also contact someone who is a myofascial release therapist who can come out for a few hours and compile a list of helpful exercises for drivers and staff. Good luck with classes!

    9. Bike Shorts*

      If you haven’t already – ask your drivers! They probably know exactly what would make their lives easier. Some ideas – step ladders installed in trucks, pull out ramps or hydraulic lifts. Maybe other folks need to pack lighter? Or pack more efficiently so the drivers are taking fewer trips in and out?

    10. HavenRose*

      I work a job that has a high risk of repetitive motion injury due to lifting, but likely not as heavy objects. Our company has athletic trainers who developed 10 minute warm up stretches for everyone to do at the start of every shift. If the company doesn’t want to keep one on full time, it seems like something you’d be able to get a consultant for.
      We also have a yearly training on safe body motion; it’s just a video, but it goes through lifting safely among other things. Since it’s on leadership’s radar too, as supervisors see poor body motion in action they deliver feedback and remind the team the correct way to do things, while pointing out how the current way tends to cause injury.

      1. DannyG*

        I have worked with a physical rehabilitation program that employs an exercise physiologist to work with patients. Perhaps a local hospital or clinic might have one on staff who can consult.

    11. AndersonDarling*

      One of the biggest things is have a for-real culture of safety. Meaning, call out any macho “I don’t need girly safety” statements.
      My hubby worked at many labor intensive jobs where corporate would talk about safety, but managers and peers would openly mock it. “You’re wearing gloves! What a wuss!” “I don’t need some chick in HR telling me how to lift a box!”
      Any talk like that needs to be shut down in the moment by someone in authority.

      2. ronda*

        I would recommend looking at safety programs and see if any of those provide information you can use in your setting. reducing injuries is definitely a safety goal.

    12. Always Tired*

      I work for a construction company, and this year started drilling in that “your body is the most expensive thing on the job site.” I mention it every few months at company all hands, and remind the supers to bring it up at the safety meetings. Drop the TV/chandelier/beam/whatever. Do not put your body in harms way. Make sure there are enough people to lift/maneuver the thing, wait for the hand truck or forklift to be available, stretch, review proper lift techniques, etc. We’ve seen a reduction in back/shoulder injuries (we didn’t have a lot, but we went from 5 in 2023 to 2 in 2024, so I’ll take it.)

      For the drivers, they make retractable truck ladders that can help them get up and down from cabs and flatbeds, and most box trucks can be equipped with a lift or ramp that can help.

      If it’s in budget, I do recommend an ergonomics assessment, but if not, I would start with instilling safety as a value and making time/space for the stretching and taking time to do things safely, and look at the cost of retrofitting the trucks.

    13. h0tg0ss*

      Seconding this. I work with folks in a specific building trade where people die if protocols aren’t followed, and our instructors reallllly drill into the apprentices that following safety protocol is strong and good and tough actually, because it means your friends get to live.

    14. I Have RBF*

      Dusting off my old safety hat here.

      What can help is a habit of starting the workday with gentle stretching and motion warmups. Yes, it often seems silly to start stretching in the workplace while they are loading their trucks, but it can help. Also make sure that people’s footwear is good for a lot of rapid movement and carrying stuff. Finally, you might want to have regular lifting technique reminders and posters.

      Also encourage people to do regular core strengthening exercises, that will help with lifting.

  7. CherryBlossom*

    My resume looks like a job-hopper’s resume, but I keep getting fired for being autistic and being bad at masking it.

    My job history is really spotty, and I’ve never lasted longer than two years at one job. I never received bad performance reviews, missed any deadlines, or let things fall through the cracks. But in all the exit interviews I’ve had, I’ve been told I’m not a good cultural fit, or I don’t gel well with the team, or that it just wasn’t working out. I could always tell they were talking around something, but it wasn’t until a particularly blunt manager said I didn’t make enough eye contact that I pieced it together.

    I don’t know how to handle this. I try my best to make small talk, look people in the eye, remember families and birthdays. But it’s clearly not enough, and it shows on my resume. I don’t like the idea of diclosing my autism. But I’m also tired of constantly scrambling to find a job because the powers that be don’t like that I’m “a little off in a way I can’t put my finger on.”

    Question: My fellow autistics, how have you dealt with this? Did things get better or worse when you disclosed? How were you able to figure out if your office was safe to disclose in? Any and all advice would be so appreciated.

    1. Nicosloanica*

      To clarify, you are looking for suggestions on how to have this conversation in an interview, to explain why your job history is spotty?

      1. CherryBlossom*

        I was actually looking more for advice on whether or not to disclose my autism at work/my next job, but I would also be grateful for advice on how to have that interview convo!

        1. Justin*

          I have ADHD but have the same eye contact issue and it’s hurt me at previous jobs.

          I disclosed during the interview process that “I sometimes don’t look people directly in the eye when (insert reason, I said “excited” or whatever)” and so they made that accomodation. After being established in the job I chose to disclose, but you’re not talking about that part really.

          (And I know autism and ADHD are not the same, just referring to this one trait that’s harmed me in the past too. Or, I would mask and then have strong emotional reactions.)

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          I think it’s often best to focus on the specific things that you do differently rather than telling people you have autism, which can not only lead to discrimination, but also might not be helpful as a lot of people know little or nothing about it and might completely misunderstand what it means. There are still people who think autistic means intellectually disabled and others who think its just a “way to pathologise being shy.”

          It might be fine, might even go well, but I think it would be worth trying stuff like, “I’m not great with small talk,” or “I promise I am paying attention even if I don’t seem to be looking at you” or whatever might get across the message you want to send without risking them assuming lack of competence.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I’m autistic. I have mentioned it to one of two of my coworkers but it hasn’t been a big enough problem for me to need to tell my supervisor or employer formally.

      You don’t say what industry/discipline you’re in but is there another line of work that might be of interest where this wouldn’t be such a problem? (I’m in libraries/archives and my who department barely interacts with each other, even though we’re generally friendly. It wouldn’t be as big an issue. It sounds like you have the reasonable basics covered and whatever is expected of you is a higher level of sociability and conformity than a lot of disciplines would expect.

    3. spcepickle*

      I’m not autistic, but I am generally considered an odd person. I also manage a team of 25 people. I agree that it might be time to look at your career field, I am a civil engineer – and dude, bridge engineers are all collectivity a group of people that never making eye contact would 100% fit into. My friend who is autistic (and has 25 plus years of work experience) avoids offices that are a majority female because of what she calls office lady gossip. Fully acknowledge that comes with its own issues, but there is a data point.

      I think you should be looking at work that
      a) has a union, I work for Washington State most employees are union covered and it means we don’t fire people for “culture” fit. Also it is huge agency that gives people time and space to move around without job hoping to find the office, job, space that is a good fit.
      b) has a history of attracting “nerds” – heavy math, archives, some types of engineering. In my experience these are places where your work will be an asset and autism is a strength.
      c) has done tangible work in understanding that diversity covers neuro diversity as well. You can ask about this in an interview with out disclosing. Ask what their DEI program looks like (a dirty work in some parts of the country I know). Ask about their culture and their expectations. Managers who are not currently set up to support you will give basic answers and be kind of flustered by the question. Those who have done the work will be really excited to talk about what they are doing to support their team.

      Lastly two years at a job is not an issue, if all your jobs were 8-11 months I would be concerned reading your resume. If they were all about 2 years, I would not see a red flag.

      1. Nina*

        As much as I don’t love the “office lady” bit I think this is the best and most comprehensive advice. Selecting for jobs where you are a bit more of a culture fit, like the “nerdy” jobs, can make a huge difference.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      Obvious caveat that what works for me, may not work for you. I’m also in a GLAM field, very ADHD, probably autistic but not diagnosed.

      I honestly think if it’s to the point where you feel you’re being fired for it, you need to disclose it because it is a protected disability. There are ways around it but having official paperwork for some kind of “accommodation” may help in the next place.

      Personally I’ve gotten a little more upfront during interviews (but also comfortably employed so not desperate). I’m used to all day academic interviews and I’ve started letting the main person know I tend to get quieter in the afternoons cause I’ve noticed this tends to make some people worry (even those who talk about how tiring the day can be). And everyone has been very nice about it and honestly it makes me feel better and worry less what they are thinking.

      Very much depending on your field but I feel like you could probably say something in the email when setting up an in-person interview. Like “due to a medical condition I have a difficult time maintaining eye contact, and wanted to let you know [insert something like, so not worried, get distracted, etc. but worded better].”

    5. Redaktorin*

      Hi! I’m AuDHD and I have slowly learned to avoid career impacts by masking harder. Disclosing, on the rare occasions I’ve tried, has been utterly disastrous, mostly motivating people to come up with excuses to discipline me that provide more plausible deniability to their ableism. I wish I had better news for you.

      Maybe we’re both in the wrong field? Mine pays well but involves several meetings with a couple dozen stakeholders on a slow day. I’m just permanently tired.

    6. Dittany*

      Have you looked into WFH jobs? It’s harder for your coworkers to find you off-puttingly weird if they’re not around you as often.

    7. Maple Cheesecake*

      My resume looks a lot like this too. I just hit two years in my current role, and this is the longest I’ve ever held one job.

      These days though, it’s because *I* start to lose my mind at the two year mark. I used to work a lot in food service, and absolutely struggled with the “culture” fit. I’d been iced out a few times, forced to quit in others. I managed to make a shift over into reception work, and found myself in a much better “culture” fit—largely because the vast majority of my coworkers are also neurodiverse. Not necessarily diagnosed (not that it’s my business to know), but my “AuDHD-dar” has pinged each and everyone of my colleagues at one point.

      My advice to you would be to, as best you can in an interview, try to find a place with people like you. Turn your “AuDHD-dar” as sensitive as it will go. In my limited experience, the medical field is loaded with neurodiversity—so if that’s a field you’re able to move towards, it’s worth it!

    8. Stuart Foote*

      I’m not autistic, but I do wonder what field you are working in if you are consistently getting fired for being “a little off.” Most places I have worked it takes a lot to get outright fired. I’m sure a lot of those jobs would have squeezed out autistic folks (although I’ve definitely worked with people who may well have been autistic), but if you are constantly having managers say “you’re fired” there is almost certainly more at play here than lack of eye contact.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        What’s interesting is that I’m an admin, so I’ve worked in a number of fields. It happens most commonly in finance, but it’s also happened to me in tech-start ups and a few more niche fields. I’ve always asked for feedback in my exit interviews, but I can never get more than “Oh, you did well, it just wasn’t a good fit!” so I’m really at a loss as to what else it could be.

        1. Orange*

          You may already be doing this, but see if you can get feedback before your exit interview (or before an exit interview is in the horizon). If it’s clear that you want to use their advice to be a better employee *for them* they may be more forthcoming.

    9. Former Retail Manager*

      Not autistic or neurodivergent, but as someone who has worked with & supervised a few such folks…

      1. You say that you did not let things fall through the cracks, but in my experience, a lack of eye contact and/or slightly odd personality traits or interactions are not sufficient to let someone go. A competent employee who is performing well is not going to be let go for being a little less talkative than others or not making enough eye contact. My advice would be to try and get some very honest, candid feedback from a former co-worker that you believe would be brutally honest with you. This feedback may be very hard to hear, but I think you need a clear picture of how others perceive you. In my experience, people on the spectrum do not always pick up on things that seem blatantly obvious to neurotypical people, so there may be other issues that you aren’t even aware of. The folks that I have worked with that were let go had a mountain of issues. Eye contact and limited small talk were not even among the top 5 worst issues.

      2. As spcepickle said, you should consider trying to find employment in industries where being neurodivergent is more common.

      3. As for disclosing it, I would wait until you are hired, but I don’t know that I would call it autism because some can interpret that very negatively. But I would disclose that over the years you’ve learned that your brain processes information a little differently and sometimes you will do X, Y, Z (not make a lot of eye contact, limit your small talk because you really like to focus intently on your work, or whatever the case is) and you just want to let them know because you don’t want them thinking it has anything to do with them.

      I’ve worked with people who disclosed being neurodivergent and ones that did not, and I always immensely appreciated the ones that told me exactly what to expect from the get-go. It avoided awkward conversations and didn’t leave me second guessing if they had a problem with me or their training or their co-worker or whatever. The ones that disclosed also made a point to let me know that if they were doing something that was considered unacceptable for the work environment or culture, to please bring it to their attention. It made for an open, transparent situation for all involved.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        Honestly, I would love some direct, blunt feedback, but I can never quite get it. I’ve always asked for feedback in my exit interviews, but I can never get more than “Oh, you did technically well, it just wasn’t a good fit!”; even my bluntest manager didn’t say anything more than the eye contact thing. I never hear back from former coworkers, either, so I don’t know who else to turn to.

        I always get the sense that people in my exit interviews are talking around…something, and I wish they would just say it. Right now I’m just trying to fill in that blank and assuming it must be the autism.

        1. Kaden Lee*

          Any chance you belong to any other marginalized groups (such as being a woman, being not white, etc)?

          1. Lisa Simpson*

            I’m a fairly reserved, serious woman and I suspect this OP is a woman. I’ve gotten so many “constructive criticism!” pieces over the years that boil down to “you’re not performing femininity in a way that pleases me.” I do not have any neurodivergences or disabilities, I am generally friendly and well-liked, I just won’t bubble and simper on command like an animal being displayed for show. And a LOT of people have a problem with that.

    10. Maotseduck*

      Another vote for looking for a nerdy job. I’m not sure if I’m autistic (vocational rehab said I was on the spectrum, but my therapist disagrees) but I definitely have an issue looking people in the eyes and just in general being kinda weird to other people. It might’ve been an issue in my first job, there were extenuating circumstances with other mental health stuff that brought my downfall there. It’s never been an issue since (10 years). I’m in an adjacent field to engineering. Also, the job I have now is the only one I’ve lasted longer than two years so you’re not alone there. Keep your head up, and I hope you find a fit soon.

      1. Bast*

        I’d like to add to this and recommend IT sorts of jobs. Both my husband and brother in law are in IT. My brother in law is AuDHD and has a lot of mannerisms some find off putting that I think would make it hard for him to find an office/corporate job — difficulty with eye contact, doesn’t like talking to people, shifts around nervously a lot, and is generally awkward. These mannerisms don’t seem to bother anyone in his current job. He doesn’t really socialize outside of work unless you play the same computer games he does, but no one really cares if the IT guy doesn’t come to happy hour. My husband as well — not AuDHD, but has noticed his share of people who may or may not be neurodivergent in his department (IT), but would definitely be classified as “odd ducks” in a stuffy office type setting or in other departments. As long as you can fix their problem, everyone is happy. He does a lot of the backend stuff, but even if you start out in a helpdesk type of role where you are speaking to others, as long as you’re fixing the issue no one cares if you’re a bit “different” whether that’s because you don’t make small talk or eye contact or whatever it may be.

    11. Bluebonnet*

      I am autistic as well and am so sorry you are going through this! That sounds really tough and tiring!

      I know the youtube channel “I’m Autistic Now What” has a video about jobs that work well for the Autistic community. For example, one of the jobs mentioned in the video involves from grocery store to grocery store and restocking displays (a friend of mine who may be undiagnosed has this job and likes it).

      I have also found seeing a counselor who specializes in Autism helpful. I am working with her to learn to love myself (Autistic and all) after a life of generally not belonging. However, I acknowledge that not everyone has access to a counselor (which is completely unfair).

      I work as a library technician at a higher ed institution, and there are a lot of nerds there (some who appear to have Autistic traits) which is helpful (especially behind the scenes in areas such as cataloging, acquisitions, and/or library software systems). I am slightly extroverted, so have a job where I work partially with the public and partially behind the scenes processing and shifting books and other material. Library technicians do not need library science degrees which is nice (but librarians do).

      Overall, I have had a good experience working in the academic library circuit. The main issues I have encountered include (1) occasional neurotypical co-workers losing their temper with me after I missed cues for a long period of time, (2) being rejected for a library position due to not looking the interview in the eye (I got a position with a different library at the same institution later) and (3) currently having personality bumps with a neurotypical co-worker who is very extroverted and a former teacher (she seems to want to change me over ways I cannot change). I am considering my Autism counselor’s suggestion of taking this co-worker to work to clarify things with her (she may be open to feedback).

      I am rooting for you and wishing you the best on your professional journey!

      1. Bluebonnet*

        Also, to answer your question about disclosing diagnosis, I definitely would not recommend until after you accept a job offer.

        I was in denial about being autistic for most of my professional life so masked and did not disclose it. I just pushed through I’d I was stressed. However, last fall due to a coworker incident I realized that my masking did not work as well as I thought and my anxiety was elevating. I decided to get autism counseling and get a diagnosis.

        I ended up disclosing my diagnosis to my supervisor as well as to a coworker I got along with well who is also autistic. my supervisor was fine with it, but did not seem to know much about it. Sharing it with my coworker brought us closer. So far, I have chosen not to share it with the rest of my team. I just share general info such as that I sometimes miss cues.

        I am now starting to slowly advocate for myself. I got flare calm ear plugs to weed out excessive noise, and requested a blue light blocker for my computer screen. I am also making sure I have more energy energy at work by going to bed earlier, saying no to more events in my personal life, and recognizing when I am getting overestimated/uncomfortable/tired so I can rest and have less meltdowns.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Love Meg’s videos (I’m Autistic, Now What?). She worked in retail for a while before starting her own business related to her special interest.

    12. Momma Bear*

      Well, firstly, it can be very common to only have a few years at a job. I’d be concerned if it was consistently less than a year but two year stints aren’t a red flag necessarily.

      Some communities have support for neurodivergent folks who are job hunting. I wonder if they can help you find a good fit for your skills. Speaking of skills, if it’s always the same kind of job you struggle with, where else could you apply what you are good at? If communication isn’t your thing, is research? Do you by chance work in IT or have you considered STEM roles? I bet a large swath of my coworkers are neurodivergent and their strengths are more important than office chit chat.

    13. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

      I was fired for my autism last year and lawyered up after because I had documented the discrimination they’d been inflicting on me. Having to deal with that totally changed my perspective on disclosure. I do recommend you disclose, but do it in writing and explain very precisely both the support you need and the effects it has on you. I’d previously only disclosed verbally and been very quiet about it. Don’t be like that. Anything you disclose, any discussion you have, do it in writing and keep copies, just in case.

    14. Pomodoro Sauce*

      I have gotten by without disclosing by being in a field with a lot of quiet neurodiversity, but I have noticed a real trend in that field to have admin staff wordlessly compensate for executive function problems, manage environments, and make social connections for project staff. That can be a stressful and unpleasant set of tasks for someone who is also neurodiverse. Did you like your jobs? Were you having a good time at work? Did you like the tasks you were assigned?

    15. Me, surprised but not really*

      I’m with everyone who said don’t disclose until you have an offer. Very recently, I discovered I was placed on the spectrum as a child and am pursuing an assessment to verify it. It explains a lot of struggles similar to yours. This is in addition to a learning disability that severely limits the kinds of work I can do. I’m an admin too, and I’ve focused on getting off the front desk and into project support work that isn’t so people-heavy and veers away from my LD.

      One thing I’ve done since I found out about my possible ASD is to write a list of what gives me the most difficulty and the best ways to accommodate that. Doing this can help you decide what to say if you do ask for accommodations. If you’re not working, this can also help you figure out what kinds of jobs or fields might be a better fit for you. The Job Accommodation Network (JAN)’s website has information about accommodations based on your role and how to disclose — look on their Individuals page.

      Fields like architecture and engineering need admins, and many aren’t customer facing and/or remote or hybrid. My current workplace (engineering firm) has a robust DEI program as well, with a network for neurodivergent employees. This would be something to look for if you’re job hunting — companies often post about employee networks on their careers pages.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s exhausting and discouraging to have to keep starting over all the time.

    16. The Prettiest Curse*

      I also have issues with eye contact. (I am not autistic, but have worked with colleagues who are.) The eye contact thing has been more of an issue when interviewing than in the workplace (I have worked in admin roles in the past) so I think it may more that your former boss just landed on that as the only concrete example he could give, which sounds really frustrating. If you have a few 2-year job durations on your resume, that won’t necessarily count against you, especially as you mentioned that you have worked in start-ups, which are
      known for having rounds of staffing up and layoffs depending on funding.

      A couple of fields which may be friendlier to you than those you have previously worked in are higher education and nonprofits. The disclaimer with both of these sectors, however, is that they have working environments that are terrible and toxic as well as those that are brilliant and supportive. (I’m currently in higher ed in a great environment.) There are factors specific to those two sectors which means that they tend to have greater variability in working environments than other sectors and that those environments that are bad tend to be really bad. But if you hit on the right one, you may find a great fit for you.

      I would also recommend looking into local organisations that focus on neurodiversity in the workplace. You may be able to find useful resources on LinkedIn as well, but it might take some searching.

      There is also a lot of other great advice in this thread, so good luck!

  8. Not a Snow Fan*

    Anyone else have trouble with their boss during the recent snowstorm? My boss was really hot for me to drive across town to check the mail the day after the snow. Everything was ice and I couldn’t even dig out of my driveway. I told her I’d get to it when I could but I was not in a hurry. There was no reason we had to go get the mail right that day – we were expecting a check, sure, but as far as I know there’s no difference between having the check deposited yesterday or the day after. I knew she wasn’t going to pay for my car if I got in a wreck. Every day she asked me if I had gone yet. I finally used work time to spend two hours clearing my driveway and walk since it was so important to her.

    1. Tradd*

      My first question: are you are in a location that regularly gets snow (aka area has infrastructure such as plow/salt truckers to deal with it) or somewhere that rarely gets it?

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Is this an area that gets snow regularly (and thus both the city and individual drivers should be prepared to deal with it)?

      How vital is mail? We don’t get a lot of mail at my job but someone (not me; I live the furthest away) would be expected to retrieve it sooner than two weeks, barring a functional apocalypse.

      Sign up your office for USPS informed delivery so you can see online what mailpieces are waiting for you and tell if you need to get them.

      2. Justme, The OG*

        I didn’t think that businesses could sign up for informed delivery? At least I tried a few years ago and couldn’t.

        2. Melody Powers*

          It seems to be more location-based than anything. I moved into a new apartment last year and this is the first time I haven’t been able to get Informed Delivery. Though that could be because there aren’t a lot of residences in the area so they assumed it’s a business address…

        3. SAF*

          I was able to sign the business up for informed delivery a few months ago after several years of trying.

    3. PostalMixup*

      Sympathy. My kids are on day 5 of snow days/virtual learning. My spouse and I 100% used work time to dig our car out.

    4. econobiker*

      Spending work time clearing your vehicle out of snow is perfectly acceptable in the case of supervisor wanting a specific task completed that required you to drive to the post office or mailbox. And I also hope that you stopped and got breakfast while on the clock too!

    5. Tea Monk*

      Ugh, bosses like that suck. I once ruined my car’s alignment in an ice slide to staff a shop with no customers. My bosses are making a big fuss about how we’re not having a day off blah blah blah but at least they’re not making me drive in dangerous conditions

    6. Mockingjay*

      Did your state or local government issue a State of Emergency, with instructions to stay off the roads? I’ve used that before to counteract a supervisor who wanted people to come in, in clearly dangerous, icy conditions. I downloaded the PDF of the declaration and sent it to her.

    7. Tradd*

      Another thought: if you’re in an area that regularly gets snow/ice and weather is becoming more of an issue, perhaps your company needs to consider going to all electronic payments. There’s either ACH (within the US), wires (international), but you can also sign up with a service that gives you access to a payment portal. You can take credit cards, eChecks, etc. I’m in int’l transportation and there used to be checks sent all the place. It’s almost all gone electronic payments now. Some big ocean carriers will charge a $50-$100 admin fee for each check payment they receive.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Yes, this! Getting our vendors (and sales) to accept direct deposit was golden (one big vendor signed up for it right after a bank employee, not us, stole checks and one of them was for a that vendor. No, we did not hire her to do this…). We got tired of salespeople losing their checks in the laundry etc., so they all went on direct deposit as well (despite the whining of some whom I think forgot to tell their spouses about the actual physical checks).

  9. Farts*

    For those who are looking for a new job right now, or recently got a new job, do you have suggestions on how to tweak your resume to get passed the AI/ATS systems?

    I work in digital marketing and have been trying to find a new job the past 3 months. I’ve only gotten 2 requests for interviews – 1 blew me off and the other reached out saying the position changed. The positions I’ve been applying for are lateral moves for me, and my experience matches them. I try to change some words or phrasing based on the job description, but I don’t know if that’s enough.

    What’s interesting is that with my current job, we hired 1 level above me, and 1 below me, so I saw all those resumes, and they weren’t great. Weird formatting and short points with no SMART goals. But I don’t know, those resumes clearly got passed whatever.

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      First thing, save a copy as a text file. Many systems convert to text or read as text. This means that things that make sense in your word document are out of order when ATS reads it.

      Make sure there’s not any information in the header, footer, text boxes, or tables. Many systems can’t read those.

      Upload to Indeed. There’s no cost, and if it gets seriously jacked up you know ATS won’t be able to parse it properly.

      1. Spacewoman Spiff*

        In addition to saving as a text file, I’ve seen advice to adjust your formatting if you notice that, when applications autofill your work history based on the uploaded resume, everything is in the wrong place. I can’t really say if this makes a difference, but I was able to change my resume formatting so the robots were pulling from it more correctly, so at least I felt confident the AI was scanning the right fields.

          1. Rainy*

            Upload it to an actual job application and click the option for the platform to autofill the backend application form. If it fills wrong and you have to fix a bunch of stuff, your resume formatting is jacking up the platform’s parsing. Any “tools” that claim to do this for you will either cost money (pointless expense) or will be free but tell you your resume is bad and offer to fix it for $200 (because the “free review” is just to sell you the service).

          2. Spacewoman Spiff*

            What Rainy wrote! I just uploaded mine to actual applications and made updates to my resume formatting based on the errors I was seeing in the autofilled form.

        1. SBT*

          Saving and uploading as a text file is not great advice. You should definitely upload as a PDF.

          As someone who has worked in recruiting and HR for over 15 years, there’s a misconception that these ATS (Applicant tracking systems) are run by bots and you have to “get past the ATS” with your resume. Lots of “career coaches” offer resume services specifically marketed to get past the ATS – it’s a scam.

          The only time I’ve seen auto rejections where a real person isn’t actually reviewing the resume is when the application is accompanied by questions and the company sets “knock-out questions” (e.g. “How many years of experience do you have in this function?” and anyone who puts less than 5 would get an auto-reject).

          In your shoes, I’d do the following:
          – get a couple friends/former colleagues to look over your resume and give you advice.
          – Obviously read the stuff Alison has on crafting resumes
          – Take a realistic look at the jobs you’re applying for and whether you’re a solid match. If you are, does your resume reflect that (e.g. the bullets points show off your achievements in that area).
          – Remind yourself that so often, rejections have nothing to do with whether you were qualified. They could be deep in the process with their final candidates and aren’t bringing anyone else in. They could have posted because their policy requires it even though they’ve identified someone interally (hate this policy). The hiring manager might have a non-negotiable that you know a particular software and you don’t – but it’s just one bullet point on the job description so you have no way to know that it’s non-negotiable.

          Job market is tough right now and it’ll take some time – hang in there!

          1. Ginger Cat Lady*

            HR people say “It doesn’t happen that an ATS auto rejects people” all the time, but I absolutely have had auto rejections in less than a minute just from uploading a resume. On a weekend. Several times. Please believe people when they tell you this is happening.
            There definitely ARE systems out there that do this, even if you personally haven’t seen them. HR people need to stop gaslighting job applicants saying that this doesn’t happen. And now with AI, it’s getting worse, not better.
            You DO have to get past the ATS so that a human can see your resume. But every system is different so no one can teach you how to consistently do that. Are there scammy courses? Yep. Are there ATS systems that auto-reject? ALSO YES.

            1. JFC*

              Yeah I agree with you here. SBT is either in a bit of denial or just hasn’t experienced it personally. I have gotten rejection emails within a few minutes of applying for jobs where I knew absolutely I met the minimum requirements, and my application reflected that. There simply wasn’t enough time between application and rejection for a human to review.

          2. Farts*

            just tried it. It uploaded my past few jobs correctly, but then for some jobs 6+years back it skipped over the company auto fill for some reason for a couple of the jobs. could that possibly lead to it being rejected?

          3. Banana Pyjamas*

            Oh yes I should clarify. You save a COPY as a text file for your own review, but you upload a Word or PDF depending what the employer asks for.

    2. MissGirl*

      No matter what I did, nothing worked perfectly. It doesn’t like multiple positions at the same company. Don’t upload a text file as those WILL look like crap when printed. Always upload a PDF and copy and paste everything in when you can. Make sure your customizing your resume with each application.

      1. Lurker*

        The job market is really tough right now but don’t lose hope! New things will open with 2025 budgets and after bonus time.
        I started with Alison’s advice and then used Chat GPT to refine for each job. You can upload a PDF and include a link to the job description and ask it to help you refine your resume for that job. Took me a couple tries to get the hang of it and you definitely need to review/edit the updates it suggests, but it’s a huge time saver. It also helps the bullets on your resume match the language of the job posting. Good luck!

  10. Harlowe*

    Job searchers, how are things going? Any improvement in response rate, or in number of job postings? I’m not seeing much change yet, despite everyone swearing that things would pick up by now.

    2. Emac*

      I’ve applied for a handful of jobs in the past couple of weeks (should be more, but I’m working on it!) – I got one rejection and one invite to the initial interview stage. I knew the one that rejected me was a big stretch, so I’m not too upset about that, but very excited for the other! Trying not to get my hopes up. It would be for a big university that I used to work for and would love to work for again.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This prompted me to look at the job I applied to on April 1 last year, and it’s still listed as “we are reviewing all applications.” I’d read on reddit that this org can take upwards of 9 months to hire so I don’t think this is necessarily out of character, but I did have to laugh.

    5. keyboards all the way*

      “…despite everyone swearing that things would pick up by now.”

      LOL I feel like I’ve been hearing that since 2022 and it still hasn’t happened. And isn’t going to happen. Maybe the retail and food service industries are hot right now (because they’re always hiring because who wants to deal with the public anymore). But everywhere else? No vacancies, no room at the inn, get the hell out :-(

    6. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      In IT here, and still nothing. I’m being told by recruiters I’ve personally met with to network that companies will 1) start posting toward end of this month because new job descriptions within the new annual budget take time to get approved to post and 2) many companies are waiting for the inauguration to happen to see what the market does and any immediate economic impacts (even short term ones).

    8. IndyDem*

      I work in pharma. Started applying mid-November due to an upcoming layoff. Applied to four companies, interviews at two of them in late December, and just accepted an offer today.

    10. Quitting Timely*

      25 applications in so far, 2 rejections (1 bc job was filled). There is one job I applied to that is literally the job I had, just at a different university; that is still under review, so I’m hopeful. I was up for a big promotion at my old job but moved states in November due to health, housing, and politics all going downhill at the same time. Good to be back in my home state but would have preferred to find a job before I quit my old one.

    11. IHaveKittens*

      I just started a new job this past Monday. I was out of full time employment for 17 months and things were looking pretty dire. I had SO many interviews, I thought for sure I would get something quickly. But all I got was a lot of ghosting. Rounds of interviews and then crickets. But I applied to a random job notice I saw on ZipRecruiter, of all places, and this was the one that came through. Small company, doing cool things with AI in my field, and seem really happy to have me join. They don’t seem to care that I am in my mid 60s or that I had high level management positions before.

      As my husband always reminds me, all it takes is one.

    12. Frustrated PM*

      I just kicked my job search up a notch after several months of turmoil at my current company, so I can’t comment on any changes. I made an internal career transition a couple of years ago, which I’m afraid will bite me now because most roles in my new field want 4+ years experience and certifications.

  11. Just a Person*

    I was reminded of this by a recent letter on here that mentioned a Chief of Staff. Is anyone here a Chief of Staff, and what does your job look like? What does your background look like? Or what does a person in that role at your company do?

    Someone suggested that I would be good at it in the future but I’m curious what the role actually entails! (Obviously I need to investigate within my org, too!)

    1. nnn*

      Most commonly I’ve seen it used to mean second in command, the person who does most of the day to day management of other senior staff to free the top person up from having to do it themself. Think how the White House uses it. But in some offices it seems to have more of a “head admin” connotation so it depends on the job.

      1. Joielle*

        I was deputy chief of staff in my last role and it was this – second in command (well, I was third in command) with responsibility for day to day management of senior staff and consulting on strategic work.

    2. JMR*

      I am not one, but at the midsize biotech where I work, the position is a sort of a go-between between senior scientific management and the staff scientists. I imagine it’s similar in other fields as well, where the person acts as a communication liaison. She has a scientific background (PhD, worked as a scientist for moving into the Chief of Staff role) and that equips her to understand what resources and support the various scientific teams need and to communicate that to upper management. Our scientific teams don’t all have dedicated project managers so she does a bit of that work as well, communicating timelines and taking meeting notes, that sort of thing. It sounds nice, but if I’m being honest, it’s not a well-respected position; she’s viewed somewhat as a glorified admin. I do wonder if it’s different in other fields or other organizations.

    3. Lady Lessa*

      If you don’t mind a political book, may I recommend “The Gatekeepers: How the White House Chiefs of Staff Define Every Presidency” by Chris Whipple. I found it very interesting and good.

    4. UAdmin*

      I am Chief of Staff for a school within a larger university. Most schools at my university have someone in my role, but the tasks vary greatly depending on the needs of the deans. We have responsibility for specific units or processes within the school (e.g. communications, faculty hiring/promotion/tenure, facilities, staff training and development, business operations, fundraising, budget, event management) though the areas we cover vary widely depending on the school’s organizational structure. There’s also an expectation to cover whatever the dean needs for us to do. Sometimes I travel to represent the school when the dean isn’t available. I work with our communications team to make sure the talking points are ready for events she does attend. I’m also the school’s representative on several larger university-wide committees and working groups. I love the variety of the work and the chance to be involved in various ways. It helps that I really enjoy working alongside the faculty, staff, and students at our school.

      1. CoS*

        Do you have work-life balance? I’ve been interested in chiefs of staff roles and have useful higher ed experience for a college-level role, but I’m both remote and have good balance so I’ve been nervous about trying to find a role that would surely require in person presence and might also make balance difficult…

    5. RagingADHD*

      It can be really variable. In our company, the CEO/Chairman’s EA was made a Chief of Staff, aka Head of the Office of CEO, which means the C-Suite’s floor receptionist and another EA report to her. Other than those managerial functions, it appears from my interactions with her that the rest of her daily work is the same as any EA to a CEO would entail.

    6. wait wait*

      In my federal agency, there’s an agency Chief of Staff reporting to the agency head, plus each division has a Chief of Staff who reports to the division head. At the division level, the Chief of Staff is sort of like a special advisor to the division head, managing the division-wide systems and special initiatives. Eg. they revamped the system used for tracking and managing approvals, help manage our high-level interactions with other divisions, and directly oversee some special initiatives. I don’t think they supervise any staff, but it’s still considered a fairly important/high-ranking position within the division since they have the ear of the division head. It’s definitely not seen as an admin position.

    7. Wordybird*

      I’ve worked as an EA before and am currently a PM so I’ve done some investigating into being a CoS. I see a lot of those roles advertised on Idealist & Wellfound but haven’t applied for them as they often say they prefer someone with several years of finance/tech experience and/or an MBA (and I have neither). Of the ones I’ve seen, none list any admin-type work but super high-level strategy & operations work and definitely viewed as the right hand to the CEO.

    8. Fluff*

      I was Chief of Staff for our hospital. In hospitals, it is often a rotating role.

      The COS is the chief / lead for all the medical staff: doctors, physician assistants, nurse practionners, residents, etc. to the hospital administration and the board. The hospital also has a Chief Medical Officer. The CMO though is usually employed by the hospital where the COS is an elected track and has privileges in the hospital, but is not necessarily a hospital employee. As COS, you have are also a voting member of the board. You are involved in strategic stuff also representing the medical staff – this could be for conflicts, peer review, policies, etc.

      The role usually is a several year leadership track. For us, we start as Vice Chief of Staff, then go to Chair of Medical Executive Committee and then to Chief of Staff. This way you get on the job training.

  12. MCL*

    Honestly I’d probably pause my conversation at her interruption and fully turn my attention to her (making it awkward! Hopefully for her!) and say a deadpan “okay.” And then deliberately return to my previous conversation. You have acknowledged her comment, but it’s a ridiculous thing to say so don’t give it any more thought or air time. You can respond “okay.” to this kind of comment till the end of time.

    I probably would also pause if she interrupted me during a 1:1 conversation (where another person is clearly not invited, not like, a casual convo in the lunch room or something) and ask her if she needs anything and then deliberately return to the conversation. If she continues to interrupt you can tell her that you’re in the middle of working on something with the other person.

  13. To speak or to message, only*

    Curious on people’s take: if you’re in a small cube area- where everyone can turn and face each other- you’re basically within arm’s reach. You’re working with someone on a document. They ask you a question, for which you need to look up an answer and message/email the answer (let’s say a reference). Do you use your words to say that you’ve sent the info, or just send it, and not say anything?

    1. StressedButOkay*

      If they verbally asked about something, I’d respond that I’m sending/have sent the info – sending it and not saying anything feels a bit cold.

    2. snowglobe*

      Generally, I say something. Maybe because I’m a Brit but it feels rude to just reply by email? Like I’m blanking them in a conversation? Curious if other people feel the same.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        If we’re already in a rhythm of “they ask out loud, I send detailed info in an email” then I may not bother announcing I’ve hit the send button every single time after the pattern has been established. But I would probably respond out loud “got it” or “will do” immediately after the request has been made.

      2. londonedit*

        Also British and I’ve never experienced a ‘cube farm’ environment (they seem to be less common here) but if I’d been having a conversation with a nearby colleague about something and I then sent them the info I’d promised, I’d definitely say ‘Just sent that over now’ or whatever. And if I was the receiving colleague I’d say ‘Thanks, got it!’. Would definitely be weird to communicate via email when they’re right next door.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      If they look like they’re busy and concentrating I’ll just send it; if they look free or we’ve already been talking I’ll tell them I sent it.

    4. Kay*

      It depends. When they asked you for the info did you respond with “I’ve got to look that up-I’ll email you in a second” or did you just not respond, or something else?

      If the first – you don’t need to say anything once you do it, but it might be nice depending on what your culture is, what they are doing, etc. If you didn’t respond at all – weirdly cold and odd. Something else, I would probably say something.

    5. Trotwood*

      I’d probably say “let me pull that info and I’ll send it over” to acknowledge in the moment that I’m working on it, and then 50-50 on whether or not to follow up verbally that it’s been sent. It would depend on my perception of whether the person is waiting for the response urgently or if they’ve moved on to other things in the meantime.

    7. Ama*

      If it’s something that might take a while or I need to finish something else first I’d say something like “I’ll have to look it up when I have a sec – I’ll email it to you when I’ve got it,” but I wouldn’t tell them I sent it . If it was a really quick answer — like I could easily pull up what they needed and drop it in chat/email within a few seconds, I would say “Sending it to you now,” or something like that. But both of those are only if they were a verbal question — if they asked their question by email/chat I’d just respond in that format and wouldn’t feel the need to speak up.

    8. Bast*

      If someone turned around and asked me something I had to look for it, I’d probably look for it, email it to them, and then say something like, “Okay Sarah, I just sent you the X report.”

    9. Nightengale*

      We have a variation on this in my medical practice where we have a staff chat function in our electronic health record. We often send each other info through the function while in the same room. Sometimes I say aloud “I sent you the thing” and sometimes I don’t (and sometimes the other person a minute later is “oh I see the number, thanks”). Often by the time I am pressing send, I am already talking to someone else about something else, or the other person is.

  14. Nicosloanica*

    Okay, I think this comment belongs here and not on the weekend thread since it’s volunteering but it’s about the organization. My church asked me to join the board. I had hesitation but agreed the second year they asked. I am one of the few non-retired people. Their meetings are monthly at 9AM Saturday, via zoom, which is tough for me – it turns my Saturday morning into essentially another workday morning, keeping an eye on the time and joining a zoom. To compensate, I generally skip church that week because I want at least one day out of the week that I don’t have to set an alarm, dress, prep, and arrive to something. Second, the board meetings are not efficient. A lot of rambling/stuff that could have been an email – just what you’d expect. As the newest member, I can’t “make” them do anything differently. What I’ve been doing is saying I’m only available for an hour, or sometimes 1.5 hours, so we need to get to voting/quorum issues more promptly, or critical discussion. If you were on the board, how obnoxious would you find it that I’m doing this? I literally do have other things to do that day most of the time.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      As a human, I probably would be annoyed, although I also don’t think my annoyance would be justified.

      But maybe you’re not a good fit for this kind of thing? I avoided joining a couple of church committees because I knew I wouldn’t have the energy to spend on them.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Lol, I did try to tell them I was not a good fit for this kind of thing! Of course they gave me the usual sad song and dance about how much they need people and it wouldn’t be so hard etc. I am *willing* (not excited) to do it, but it’s clear I will definitely need to put some boundaries in place around participating.

        1. Tio*

          Can you let them know perhaps that you’re considering backing out, and then when they do the “ohhhh nooooo whyyyyy we want you here!” mention that the meetings are taking up a bit too much time since they’re unfocused, and tell them if they would consider sending an agenda for each one you think that would help and you might be able to stay. This might make YOU in charge of the agenda, and I don’t know whether you really want to stay regardless, but that’s the kind of dance I use for this sort of thing.

          1. Southern Violet*

            Yeah agreed with this. If they want you there, they will be vonsiderate of your time. If they won’t be considerate of your time, you dont actually have to stay. They cant guilt trip you unless you let them.

    2. Msd*

      I would request moving the meeting to maybe a weekday evening. 9am on Saturday is kind of obnoxious even for retirees. 7pm on Wednesday or Thursday?

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Back in the day when I worked in a doughnut shop, I would arrive at 6 am in the cold and dark to find the cluster of retired regulars waiting for me on the doorstep. They had been getting up at some ungodly hour for decades and could not stop. I would bet 9 am on Saturday seems like the height of decadence for this crowd.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This reminds me of when I served on my HOA board. Thankfully our meetings were weekday evenings.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        That’s exactly how I view this duty: like serving a term on the HOA board. It’s not something I was eager to take on, but I do think as a member there’s some obligation to contribute to the collective. But I have to put some boundaries around my contribution also.

        1. JFC*

          It may be that this isn’t the capacity to contribute. Maybe there’s some other volunteer work for the church that you can do that’s a better fit for your schedule. I’d maybe talk to the pastor or whoever is the church leader to look for other opportunities and see if you can make a shift away from the board and into something more fulfilling.

    4. Dusty*

      In your place, I would assume the board will not change. I would resign from the board.

      It sounds like you are concerned about your reputation but you don’t wish to risk the possible hit to your reputation. That seems outside of your control.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I think it’s fine to tell them that the timing/time commitment really isn’t feasible for you and you need to bow out. Or start saying “I think we’re getting off-topic here. Can we table this for later, or can Jane and Joe connect separately after the meeting so we can get back to discussing the main resolution?”, and step down if that doesn’t fix the problem. Sure, you’re new, but they sought you out. If they want more/different people to participate, they can take a hard look at how they’re handling recruitment and structuring the meetings, and start making changes.

    5. KayDeeAye*

      A Saturday morning meeting sounds horrible to me. Actually, any Saturday meeting sounds horrible. I would find it totally obnoxious. I probably wouldn’t resign, but once the term is up (I hope it’s only a year or two), I wouldn’t let them elect me to the board again. You can even tell them why, so long as you do so cheerfully and matter-of-factly, e.g., “I am really sorry, but I have a recurring commitment on Saturday that makes it really difficult to get to the board meetings.”

      1. Nicosloanica*

        They do occasionally hold the meetings in-person before or after services, which I *greatly* prefer, but it seems I’m in the minority on that one. It’s harder to come in person than zoom, I do understand, and some of the members are involved in other service activities before/after church. I think of it as 12 Saturdays a year, some of which I will have to miss so maybe 10, and maybe only 8 of them at this time … so I will serve this term but as you say, not renew.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          FWIW, I have found that the members prone to rambling at our church get much worse in person than on Zoom or other virtual meetings, so it’s possible that wouldn’t help!

          Could you pick up a quiet little handicraft to do while on the meeting? Crocheting or knitting? Maybe those are the mornings you get out the really nice coffee for yourself?

    6. Pizza Rat*

      You’re doing the church a favor by agreeing to serve; you are allowed to try to make the operational elements of your volunteer service friendlier to you, but you need to realize that it may not be possible if the Board inertia is too strong. The hard stop idea is a good one — a few other levers to pull, some may be easier than others depending on the culture of the group:

      – Ask that an agenda to be sent 24-48 hours ahead of the meeting (and ask for a proposed time breakdown of each agenda item — e.g. “Discuss landscaping contract, 5 mins”)

      – Ask that no one be allowed to monologue uninterrupted for more than 2 minutes, and agree that if any given agenda item takes more than double what was projected in the agenda (e.g. the landscaping contract discussion was supposed to be 5 minutes but it’s actually approaching 10 minutes), that the conversation is tabled but that action items are agreed upon

      – Ask that every other Board connect is an email, rather than a meeting

      – Meet before or after church service on Sunday rather than having a dedicated yet unrelated time on the only other weekend day (especially if the other Board members are retired, perhaps Saturdays are less critical to them than they are to you); or ask if you can meet on a weeknight instead

      – Communicate that if they are not able or willing to accommodate you, that your participation will be inherently limited — not that you’re holding them hostage (you’re not saying ‘it’s my way or the highway’), but that you have other conflicting commitments which mean that you will join when you can but to have calibrated expectations of what you’re reasonably able to contribute. Boundaries are so tough but especially in religious situations, but they are not contradictory – interestingly enough, one of the original articulations of the ‘boundaries’ concept for the masses was done by Christian pastors – but you have to be willing to have and enforce them; you’re not making demands, you’re simply stating what YOU will do if the undesired behavior continues. Then be willing to follow through/hold the line, rather than giving in and letting resentment fester.

      Good luck!

    7. Colette*

      In the past, I had good luck with emailing the chair of a group I was in and saying something like “I’m finding the meetings are really long, and I’m not able to focus that long. Is it possible to rein in some of the discussion so we make it through the agenda quickly, and leaving the extra conversation for after the meeting? I know I’m part of the problem, and if you notice me taking the discussion off-topic, please remind me to stay on topic.”.

    8. Kay*

      Oh I unfortunately have far too much experience with this. Typically there is at least one other person on the board who appreciates this!

      If your meetings have a scheduled agenda/end time then at the beginning of the meeting I announce that I have a hard stop for whatever the end time is supposed to be – and I was firm about that. If there were important items outstanding closer to the scheduled end time I would interject (on the always off topic blathering) to say that I was going to need to leave shortly and did we need to get to (insert important topic/vote here). I would on occasion email the chair to say I would have a hard stop if there was a particularly full or important agenda to get the point across. Not too long after starting to do that, a few others started doing the same, so I know I wasn’t the only one annoyed by the waste of time.

      If you don’t have an agenda or set time I would email the chair and let them know you have limited time available and would it be possible to set an agenda so you can participate. That is if you actually want to participate! It is very easy to say that you have realized this was too much of a time commitment for you and that you need to resign – they will get over themselves.

    9. RagingADHD*

      I would appreciate it!

      Who is supposed to be facilitating the meetings? Do you follow Robert’s Rules of Order (even perfunctorily)? Is there an agenda?

      If the board needs to meet on a regular cadence for recordkeeping purposes, and vote on things in accordance with the bylaws / charter, then they probably can’t just do emails instead. But in that case, they should follow an agenda and keep at least some semblance of minutes, and being organized about it is going to make the Secretary’s job a lot easier.

      1. Philosophia*

        They could also vote to amend the bylaws/charter to permit email voting on routine matters. I know, I know: defining “routine” would probably entail some politicking. In any case, I’ll add my encouragement to this volunteer to feel free to set boundaries. You can tell yourself that it’s no favor to the board to let yourself be burned out.

        1. RagingADHD*

          LOL, of course they *could*, but one step at a time. Saturday 9am coffee clatch to “this meeting could be an email” is going to take a while.

    10. Freddie Mercurial*

      My husband is on a church-related board that meets once a month on weeknights, usually in person. But it always runs long. It might not bother him but it bothers me at home with the kids. I think part of it is the board is made up of people not necessarily used to running meetings like this. I keep telling him to say he has to leave after 1 hour (or however long the meeting is officially scheduled for) and to stick to that. If you leave before they can vote, then they might figure out things need to change.
      You could volunteer to be the timekeeper for the meeting and keep things on track since that will work to your benefit.

    11. Paint N Drip*

      I tend to find myself in the ‘lets get GOING’ side of things in meetings, doubly so when it’s a volunteer situation that tends to get social/rambly – I am not skilled at actually getting things going in a leadership way, so I would be grateful that you’re scooting things along :)

    12. TX_Trucker*

      I’m on a non-profit board. Anything that requires a vote is always first thing on the agenda. We leave general discussion and new business until the end because folks can’t always stay until the end.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        That’s what I would like to suggest: update and discussion on rambly guy’s pet project goes last, assuming there’ nothing to vote on, which there usually isn’t.

    13. WestsideStory*

      Having served on many boards, I think you should bow out of this one. It appears you are beginning to resent the time you are giving them, and that’s not good. Go back to being a rank and file member and enjoy going to church!
      Don’t know if there’s any chance to change the meeting time? The successful nonprofits I’ve worked with (including 1 church group and my spouses synagogue ) have their boards meet on weeknights.
      This is done to attract non-retired board members.

    14. Pedantry Abounds*

      The older establishment is somewhat unaware that “we want new young blood in our organization” might require making changes to support the expectations of a younger generation. I’m currently on a committee that was full of long-established members, and each meeting had also been practically a social event to the retirees involved. One thing that changed was getting a younger chairperson who is very non-nonsense, and another shift was going to all zoom meetings during the pandemic. We now meet about topics instead of monthly and our meetings are 1-1.5 hours long, as opposed to all evening in somebody’s living room, with tea and cookies provided. So you ask how obnoxious I would find it that you set time limits… answer is, I would be inwardly cheering and very supportive, but if I extrapolate to imagining myself as Mrs Cozy who has been secretary of this committee ever since Mr Cozy’s eyes got too bad, well that might be different. However, I think what you’re doing is exactly right – treat this as much like a workplace meeting as possible, be professional, set limits and expectations, communicate clearly. And if they find it irritating, they can get another retiree to take your place. Alternately, they can get another younger professional person and you can team together and start sending meaningful emails that allow shortening meetings.

    15. Frieda*

      Who leads the meetings? When I was on my church council it was the council president, and that person typically stuck pretty closely to the agenda. You could talk with the person leading and/or the pastor to say that it’s difficult for you to carve out time for meetings that last more than an hour, and perhaps streamlining the meeting process would be useful to you and others.

      That said, I’m a person who loves collaborative work, has mostly happily served on various committees and boards for decades, and I hated church council like nothing else. I began to really resent people who I had previously thought were maybe a little eccentric or somewhat poorly-informed about the world or a little self-important, but once they began consistently wasting my time with long sidebars about other church councils they’d served on, or irrelevent tangents about their political views, or needing extremely basic concepts explained to them because they hadn’t prepared for the meeting … it was not good for me or them or the church I was supposed to be serving. I was not able to be a good neighbor or congregant.

      I gritted my teeth through the whole two years and then stepped down at the end of my term very firmly. You may find you can do that, or you may find that you need to step down early. It’s ok to do that.

    16. ReallyBadPerson*

      I would thank you for trying to inject some efficiency! I’m on our church council, and we run meetings very efficiently. If it’s scheduled for 6-8, we’re packing up at 7:55. There’s no reason why church meetings should tolerate blathering and tangents any more than secular organizations do. But it seems that they do! So say something! Retired people may have time to waste, but they don’t necessarily want to waste it.

    17. Dancing Otter*

      There are several procedural techniques you can use, if the board makes any pretense of following Robert’s Rules of Order.

      Remember the phrase “call the question.” When discussion on a motion drags on with a lot of repetition and off-topic rambling, any member can call for a vote.

      Or ask, as if confused, whether there’s a motion on the table? Could the recording secretary (or chair, or someone) read it back, please?

      If there isn’t a motion on the table, can you make one, summarizing whatever the topic was before the digressions? Even if you don’t get a second, that tends to curtail the blathering and drag things back on topic.

      There’s also the ever-popular motion to adjourn.

      I was on a nonprofit board for a while, and more than one board member thanked me for keeping discussion on point. Of course, this resulted in them electing me chair, which was a mixed blessing.

  15. Vandesdelca*

    My direct report has a unique schedule due to being in school part time and it’s come to my attention that they take extra liberties outside class hours: for example, stepping away from their computer to go to the gym for an hour at 9AM or logging off at 3PM to go see a movie. However! They have never missed a deadline, have a very prompt turnover for tasks, and have a consistently high performance score. They also routinely do work at odd hours, such as between 11PM and 2AM—but still make it into the office for 7AM on in-office days. Managers, what would you think if this was your report?

    1. Katrine Fonsmark*

      I would think it sounds like you have a great employee who does excellent work and you should be happy about that and leave them alone?

    2. ThatGirl*

      Genuinely, as long as they’re available to answer questions/emails and are otherwise an excellent worker, I probably wouldn’t worry about it. Are people noticing it? Why is this suddenly a potential problem?

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Need more information. Are they going to the gym on the clock? Not okay, and maybe this position can be posted/paid for fewer hours if there isn’t enough work to fill up the time allotted for it. But if they’re not counting these activities on work time and are getting everything done, who cares?

    4. Tuesday Tacos*

      They are working and going to school? And they are getting their work done well and on time?
      I’d say let them work the odd hours, which obviously is helping them handle it all. Especially a student who might have had so much brain work in say, the morning, that disconnection for an hour or two helps them de-stress and then they come back to work (even if it is at 2am). I’m not sure what the problem is except that many of us have a tendency to think if its outside the norm then it is no good. It sounds like you have a hard worker. Value them!

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it depends on what “unique schedule” means, i.e. is it Monday from 7am-2pm, Tuesday from 11am-4pm, Wednesday from 7am-11am, etc. or is it “twenty hours per week spread out wherever makes sense to you”?

      I love a daytime movie so I’m kind of jealous of this person. :D

    6. Nicosloanica*

      I agree that I’d rather supervise this employee than one who meticulous about their scheduled hours but didn’t deliver the outcomes as well.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Unless the employee has some coverage/facetime requirements (covering a desk or phone line, for example) this is where I land too

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Also; if that schedule is known to other workers who don’t have the same freedom and it’s causing friction. But if that’s not the case, don’t look this gift horse in the mouth.

    7. Tio*

      Three main points:
      Are they doing these things while clocked in? If so, not ok, needs to be addressed immediately.
      Secondly, is there any core hours requirement? My company allows us to flex hours but the core availability is 10-3, and the second caveat is that your schedule should be mostly consistent, in that you aren’t starting at 7 one day and 10 the next, so we know when we can call on you when urgent things pop up. We still allow people to take an extra hour for lunch for an appointment and flex start times on occasion, but they in turn behave responsibly with it and notify us.
      Third – on that pint, are they telling you when they’re available? Sounds like no. Getting things done is good, but if something urgent comes up and Alex is supposed to be working but not there and you have to cover for them until they come back in at 11pm, that might be an issue. To what degree is that the case here?

      1. Yankees fans are awesome*

        But other people might need a response to something, or are counting on employee to be around at a particular time, etc.

        There are other people to consider. Also, working odd hours can lead to serious burnout. Looking the other way isn’t necessarily the right thing to do, for all involved.

    9. Alice Quinn*

      As long as they’re not clocked in while doing this, I would have no issue. It sounds like they’re an excellent performer and that this isn’t impacting their work, so nothing to manage here!

    10. Alice*

      Since they sound like a great employee in terms of their output, I think your goal should be to retain them.

      If they are hourly and getting paid for the gym and movie time, then that particular aspect is definitely not “great employee” caliber. So, if that’s the case, I think you need to tell them to stop doing this. Either, “you can’t step away for an hour” or “if you are going to step away for an hour, you need to tell me in advance/ask me in advance/make up the time the same day/take PTO/whatever is appropriate in your setting.” But if you want to retain them, be careful about this. “You’ve been taking liberties” will change the relationship. “We need to be on the same page about expectations going forward” could frame the same message in a more collegial way.

      The other thing I would wonder: how exactly did this come to your attention? Is there another employee who is spending a lot of time and effort tracking the activities of another individual contributor? If that person is reporting timesheet fraud, that’s one thing. If that person is just way too interested in the location and activities of a colleague, yikes, maybe keep an eye on that.

    11. CommanderBanana*

      I would be delighted because it sounds like they’re a great employee.

      Reread what you posted. They’re a high performer who has never missed a deadline, is in the office when they are supposed to be, and are fast and good.

      What is the problem?

      1. Rainy*

        Yup. If they’re a high performer despite the demands of their school schedule and they’re getting all their work done to a high standard and meeting deadlines while exceeding performance metrics, what they’re doing is working and you should leave it alone.

        If you start nickel-and-diming this employee–especially if they’re salaried!–expect them to nickel-and-dime you back in terms of performance. If I was this person and my boss essentially made up a bunch of rules to fix something that wasn’t broken just because they were resentful that I was happy and performing well, I sure wouldn’t be motivated to exceed expectations going forward.

    12. Flem*

      I would think I was very lucky to have such a competent, effective and high performing employee on my team. And then I’d be looking at ways I could support them and help them grow in their career!

    13. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      Assuming no timesheet fraud as discussed by others, the only issue I would have is if others on the team are formally or informally covering some real-time job function (at my company it would be client emails) for this person on the assumption that if they aren’t online, they must be in class. If that were the case, it would be kind of crappy of them to take advantage to do personal stuff during work hours.

    14. mreasy*

      This sounds like an excellent employee. Presuming they’re salaried, they aren’t doing anything wrong.

    15. Person from the Resume*

      Define the problem.

      Is it that they have a unique schedule only because of school but they’re worked a 9am gym visit and a 3pm movie into their scheduled non-work time along with classes? (Which no one else can do because they have to work 7:30-4:30)

      Or are they supposed to be “on the clock” but are instead going to the gym or a movie but coworkers/you assume that since they’re not there, they are not scheduled to work? (Which means they’re not working all their hours they are scheduled for and thus could presumably take on more work.)

      1. Person from the Resume*

        And by that I mean, I’m not sure how to answer as I don’t understand what’s the problem.

    16. Can't think of a name*

      Are there core hours to their job that they are ignoring or have they got flexibility to work their hours whenever it suits their schedule.

      Also working weird hours is fine if they’re working on solo projects but are they expected to be contactable during regular business hours as part of a team. And is anyone else having to pick up their work if they’re not responding because they’re off at the gym or at a movie when people assume they’d be at work?

    17. IHaveKittens*

      As a former manager of large teams, I never cared when people got their work done as long as it was done well, on time, and they were not holding anyone else up.

    18. Southern Violet*

      I think micromanaging the time of a great employee is a good way to lose that great employee. Is there a real, actual business reason that this is a problem? If no, if it just “feels wrong”, chalk that feeling up to corporate propaganda and ignore it.

    19. 653-CXK*

      If it were an occasional thing, happening once in awhile, and it’s not affecting their work (quality and production), this is a non-issue. I sometimes travel from my home to the office and vice-versa during business hours, and no one bats an eye (although one time, I did get a panicked Teams message from my boss, asking where I was, and I told them. Now I put it in my Teams message stating I’m in transit and will respond when I reach my destination).

      However, if these were more frequent and began to affect her work, I’d talk to them about it. I feel this direct report has everything under control, and as long as she’s delivering, there should be nothing to worry about.

  16. A*

    I have a colleague I exchanged personal numbers with awhile ago, who has now (on four occasions) pinged my personal and work phones with work-related tasks. First a form we all had to fill out by a certain deadline, then wanting to know if it was mandatory to be in the office for a work event, needing the address of an off-site, department-wide meeting, and the latest was calling/texting me at 9:30pm on a Sunday night because she couldn’t remember her boss’s work phone number, was out of the state, and needed to tell him something.

    After the first time, I stopped answering immediately and now I’m starting to feel more like her secretary than a peer. She never texts or calls me unless she needs something work-related, so I know she’s not actually interested in being friends. At the same time I’m reluctant to put my foot down too harshly because (even though we’re in different working groups) I don’t want to burn a work bridge, or do anything that would look bad to upper management. The only thing I can think of is to just totally ignore these messages until work hours, and respond then. Does anyone have any additional thoughts/advice?

    1. Elevator Elevator*

      Next time it happens, respond (belatedly) explaining you’re trying to keep work stuff to your work device and she should text work stuff to that number going forward. (Since you’re concerned about harshness – you can always frame it as a new year’s resolution to reduce screen time on the personal device or something, and like you’re letting her know you won’t be checking it much, whereas the work device will be checked regularly during business hours.)

      Then mute her to whatever extent your device allows (like setting her ringtone to silent/no vibration) so that if she does keep pinging you, the notifications aren’t bothering you in real time – you’ll just see them when you see them.

    2. Tuesday Tacos*

      Ignoring until work hours would be one of my solutions. But also, tell this person you don’t answer outside work hours, and ask them not to ping your personal phone unless it is an emergency. What did they do before they had your number? I see them taking more and more liberties with this if you keep answering. especially things they SHOULD be remembering, like when and where to be for a meeting. Sounds like they don’t wanna look disorganized to the higher ups so they are asking you.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Can you just silence her messages so they’re not pinging you at annoying hours?

      It honestly doesn’t read like she’s doing anything wrong other than the 9:30 message. You exchanged cell numbers, and not for social reasons, and she’s used it a few times for work questions. That seems eminently reasonable to me. It sounds like this wasn’t what you intended when you exchanged numbers, but I can’t tell what you did intend. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but… your choices anre to either communicate specific boundaries to her (you can do this nicely!) or to accept that she hasn’t read your mind and isn’t going to.

      1. Jane*

        We exchanged personal numbers for social reasons at a party; we have separate work numbers that we can see by looking at the corporate directory.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Ah, that is different then. I understand why you’re annoyed, if you thought you were making a friend and all you got out of it was a coworker texting you at night. Still, silence her number! If she wants to issue a social invitation, you’ll see it sooner or later.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      If I were you, I would ask her to please text my work number for work things and only use my personal number for personal things, because I do my best to keep work things on my work phone and personal things on my personal phone. If that isn’t something that bothers you, it’s probably not worth asking for.

      Do you generally check your work phone and answer work texts/calls/emails outside of working hours? If so, I don’t think she’s necessarily off-base texting your work phone with work-related tasks. You can decide which (if any) of her work texts are worth answering outside of work hours, and let the rest of them wait until it’s work time.

      1. Jane*

        I should have been more clear. What she does exactly is ping my work phone, personal phone, and Teams until she gets an answer, and sometimes she’ll ping them essentially at the same time. She called/texted my personal cell at 9:30pm on Sunday.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Oh, that is very off-base! In that case, I still think you can talk to her (if you want to) to say something along the lines of “I’m often busy outside of work hours, so I probably won’t be able to answer your questions immediately (or at all). Also, can you please just text my work phone once*? Pinging me multiple times won’t lead to me answering your questions faster.”

          Also, if there’s anything you can do to make ignoring her easier (muting her number in texting apps, turning off Teams notifications, etc.), please do!

          *or “send one Teams message” or whatever your preferred mode of contact is

        2. Kay*

          That is annoying! Question to consider – you mentioned a directory – does she have easy access to that? If not I could understanding calling your personal phone on Sunday if it was a work emergency, but barring that – this woman is being obnoxious and I would ask her to remove your personal phone from her contacts for work purposes – then I would stop responding to anything from her on your personal phone/block/silence her.

          1. Jane*

            She’s currently away without her work phone/laptop, so she wasn’t able to get the info herself.

            1. Kay*

              If it were an isolated case I would say this is totally acceptable – I’ve had to do something similar before and I’ve had it done to me, no issues. I think the difference is that she hasn’t judiciously used your personal phone in the past, so this was just ONE. MORE THING. that caused annoyance vs a slightly inconvenient but oh my poor co-worker! type situation. The thing with people who abuse privileges is they also lose them, which is what needs to happen with her imo.

        3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          This would get a response on Monday morning after my first cup of coffee. “OK, I’m back at work. Did you solve this issue in the meantime or do you still need something from me?”

    5. Username required*

      She’s being obnoxious. I’d block her on your personal cell to start with. I’ve had to do that with a couple of people at work who did a similar blast to all numbers/emails to get info that was not urgent and I just say that is my personal phone and I’m not using it for work at all. And I’d put limits on her numbers so they only show up during work hours on your work phone.

  17. Hawk is Bored*

    I need help with ideas of things to do on the public service desk at my library during slow times that aren’t “games” but will engage my brain less than reading/researching/most of the rest of my work. I’m neurodivergent and struggle with transitions. When I’m understimulated, I have horrible insomnia. When I’m reading (even work related articles and research for work projects), my brain goes into immediate hyperfocus mode. I don’t see patrons, I don’t hear coworkers, I feel like I’m moving through water even to pick up the phone. I have some small tasks I can do which don’t take up as much brain power, but still struggle with interruptions with some of them (plus most only take minutes to do, so when I’m done, there’s nothing else to do). I don’t want to be that customer service person that appears to be annoyed that someone they are helping is interrupting them (which I see a LOT at work because we have very little time to do certain duties). I used to do a lot of digital solitaire because it was easy to leave and close, but that’s not a really good look. Right now we’re in slow season and it’s especially difficult to find something to do that doesn’t take as much focus as reading/research but still takes up time. I feel like my manager would also not be amenicable to things like small handcraft, either. I only weed at certain intervals and I don’t have access to most of the things librarians do (I’m a paraprofessional). Any ideas? If you work in customer service, what do you do?
    I am considering volunteering somewhere when I’m not working, but I have limited capabilities for that due to other disabilities.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Would things that are more tactile & physical help? Go over to promo kiosk for next month’s events, straighten the fliers, etc.

      1. Hawk*

        Yes, something physical is helpful.

        We don’t have fliers *sigh* (that is a rant for another day). I clean up all the bulletin boards already.

    2. Qwerty*

      Include your manager in the conversation. They might have some other library related items for you to do (so you don’t have to worry about optics) or could give you some parameters (like maybe as long as it is on the computer monitor it is fine because patrons can’t see it). Maybe something like Sudoku could be useful and build in the habit that every time you enter a number you also look up to check if anyone needs you?

      Friends of mine who used to work reciptionist jobs enjoyed drawing / doodling and found it easy to put down when customers came in.

      1. Hawk*

        If I include my manager I will be asked why I’m not doing my other tasks (I am, I just either finish them quickly or they need more concentration than on-desk time requires). Which is fine, but it would mean I would get new tasks that I can’t get done on the desk (already happened once), or a lecture about why I need to do the work I already have… on the desk.

    3. abeille*

      I totally relate!
      To clarify, when you say your boss would object to a small handcraft, are you talking about a personal project (e.g. knitting) or a work project? If only the former, could you volunteer yourself to another staff member to do their menial tasks? Maybe there is someone who needs papers stapled, brochures folded, paper crafts for bulletin boards/displays made, etc.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I was thinking handcrafts for the library would be an excellent opportunity. Something like paper snowflakes for decoration in the children’s section or something else similar.

      2. Hawk*

        Both are out, I’m afraid. He harps on us at every opportunity to keep the service desk clean (it is, but occasionally we have to print out information for patrons and it gets left at the desk).

        1. Hawk*

          I should add that the supplies for the menial tasks are also kept in the back and I’m not allowed to bring out scissors near the public thanks to a patron that tried to use them as a weapon once.

    4. whimbrel*

      Could you disconnect from something like a crossword puzzle? It’s kind of like reading, but as a fellow neurodivergent I’ve noticed that I can break away from it more easily than reading an article or document, as the individual clues make a natural break.

      1. Hawk*

        I don’t think my manager would like those, either. He said the only acceptable non-work things were “catching up on sports” and other articles.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          It frankly sounds like you have a supervisor problem that isn’t going to change. If reading about the latest football scores is okay but nothing else is?

    5. Other Meredith*

      No idea if this would be available to you since you’re not one of the librarians, but something I do when I’m very bored at the library desk is do make a sample of a craft that the we’ll be doing for an afterschool activity. Or if your library does take and makes (mine does not anymore, alas), you could ask if you can help assemble them. Also, I know you don’t weed often, but what about shelf-reading? If one of the paraprofessionals offered to shelf read one of my sections, I would be forever grateful. Good luck, slow season at the library is rough.

      1. Hawk*

        Shelf reading is good, and I do that occasionally when I can (large library building). I’m not in children’s or teen (which are on separate levels of the library and in job responsibilities).

    6. bookluvrb*

      Ask if you can take other people’s busywork.

      Two librarians at my job do all their weeding by pulling the books and stacking them behind my desk. When I have a desk shift, I pull the whole stack out front and work on it there.

      A couple years ago when we redesigned the children’s room, we’d pre-print long strips of labels, and ask the evening shift to re-label dozens of books at once.

      A couple of the weekend staff are book-mending wizards

      Cut up scrap paper? We keep a box by the staff copier where everyone can dump their bad copies and non-private paper. Then someone cuts it up into smaller squares to hand to patrons who need scrap.

      Definitely talk with a manager first, to be sure no one thinks you’re “taking over” someone else’s job.

    7. Rook Thomas*

      Library manager here – I agree with some suggestions, and definitely agree with asking your manager if they have tasks/projects/etc. Working on the public desk makes staff really visible to the public, so if someone is doing a crossword/sudoku, it can appear that they’re not working . . . . leading to the lovely conversations that involve phrases like “Must be nice to be paid to sit and read (or do crosswords).”
      It’s a truth that public libraries have slow times — but this is perfect for projects like creating displays, creating booklists/bookmarks, walking around and tidying, shelf-reading (especially if you’re looking for books that might be in poor condition/faded spine labels). If your library does craft programs, it can be a lot of fun to have some time to look at different types of crafts, how a take/make can be created — or even put those together (even if it’s just pulling the supplies together is super-helpful).
      Your manager might have some ideas, especially if you frame this as “it’s quiet and I would love to do something helpful, since it’s not as busy at the desk.”

    8. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      There are some cool crowdsource science websites like the fish doorbell where you can watch for fish that need access to a route past a dam and let them through in real time. That’s the kind of thing I’d love to see on someone’s library computer, doesn’t actually require YOU to be engaged at any particular moment so you can be alert to people coming up, but would be lightly engaging and running in the background. There’s also similar tasks that involve transcribing handwriting and other things like that.

    9. Throwaway Account*

      Are there personal things/tasks you would like to learn or do while on the desk. I mean thinks like organize a list of things to do (might be too close to hyperfocus reading) or research for future trips or hobbies you might want to learn.

      I used to gather the info (like build a doc of website links to read later) but not read it while I was on the desk. That kept my focus on patrons but gave me something to do.

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      It’s slow where I work and I’m helping go over inventory sheets, just checking for any outrageous cost errors. It’s a lot of pages but very low-intensity and I can pick up/put down as phone calls come in. Is there anything similar that you could work on at your desk? I find that volunteering for “boring” tasks is a good way to ingratiate yourself with your bosses (but not to the extent that you get stuck with all of them, all the time!)

    11. Anonymous Cat*

      There are various projects where people transcribe old records, often scanned ones. Can you do something like that? The one I saw was through a public library so it definitely looked library-ish!

      Another idea—would they let you do origami? Something with your hands and you have to pause when you finish a piece of paper.

  18. Willa C.*

    How do you address a staff member scrolling on their phone during group lunches instead of interacting and engaging with the people around them? This person is newer to the workforce, so I don’t think they see the bad optics of this (especially if the higher ups are present).

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      is this like a work event lunch or is it just an expectation that everyone eats lunch together? If its not an actual work event then let them be. Sometimes people need to disengage from others for a bit to feel refreshed for the afternoon.

      what does the person do if someone addresses them? If they are newer to your group could they feel like an outsider. Do you see people trying to engage with them? They might be on their phone because no one is talking with them. What have YOU done to engage them?

    2. Msd*

      Are you their manager? If so, have an offline conversation with them and tell them not to use their phone during group lunches. If not their manager then ignore it.

    3. Kay Tee*

      Could you try calling them into the group yourself? Throwing them a “How about you Francesca, how’s your team adjusting to the new XYZ system?” would be a kind thing to do and might help them get the hint. I really admired a senior colleague from my first professional job who was great at bringing people in to the conversation, and I still try to emulate his style.

    4. Banana Pyjamas*

      If these are unpaid lunches that people sign out for, you have no right to decide what they do with that time.

    5. Zona the Great*

      I wouldn’t. It wouldn’t concern me at all and I certainly wouldn’t take on the task of correcting an adult peer. Policing of phone usage is more annoying than the phone usage, IMO.

    6. Honeybadger*

      I do this. I’ve got ADHD and an extreme introvert. Large, in person events even social ones like this are horribly draining for me. I will scroll on my phone as a way of insulating myself a bit so I can survive the rest of my day without being completely drained. If this is just a social gathering at lunch, I’d say absolutely nothing. If it were a lunch and learn (mandatory training or something similar), you only have standing to say something if you are their manager.

    7. GreySuit (they/them)*

      Do they respond to being engaged in conversation/asked questions? If so, I’d make a point to do so, or possibly ask some of your peers or reports to. I remember my first professional work lunch, I was very nervous and quiet, but given a conversational lifeline I managed. It may also help to pull them aside and let them know any norms your business has- price points if at a restaurant, table manners like if they should eat before all are served, yes/no on alcohol, leaving phones away, etc.

    8. Purple Tiger*

      Are you giving them a different break somewhere else in the day if lunchtime is supposed to be work-related? That might be their chance to do the kind of life admin tasks that need to be done during business hours.

    9. Southern Violet*

      Is this their own time? Then you have no say over what they do. Some people just dont like to talk to coworkers during lunch. That’s fine. I’d say the problem is with your office expectations that everyone be “on” even during breaks.

  19. Elevator Elevator*

    Wrapping up a super underwhelming first week at a new job. I’ve never been more bored in my life – I posted a couple of weeks ago that they’d gone radio silent for a few weeks, and while that was understandable with the holidays, I was correct in thinking they’d kind of forgotten about me. It’s just now on day 5 that they’ve been able to set up my access to the system that contains all the data I need to do my job. (They’d originally told me it would be ready when I started, but they forgot to request it until my first day. On Wednesday, I was the one to notice they’d used the wrong form and the request actually hadn’t been submitted at all.)

    My supervisor’s awful at thinking of ways to fill my time, so it’s been a long, long, LONG week of clicking through progressively less relevant e-learnings just for something to do, with maybe an hour a day of watching him do something in the system that, until now, I didn’t have access to. Here’s hoping things pick up next week.

    1. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

      Sounds pretty typical for a new job. I wouldn’t despair yet, my guess is within a month you’ll be busy! I have an IT adjacent job and honestly adding new people to various systems does not make the first round of important level tasks because they’re new and existing users with problems that need immediate-ish resolution are higher priority.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Agree. I had to make sure that it wasn’t my new hire writing this because that’s been their first week on the job.

        1. Elevator Elevator*

          Really? I’ve never been at a job where I’m expected to sit in my office for hours on end with nothing to do and no access to anything. I’ve also never put a new hire in that position (at least not without explicitly saying “hey, I have nothing for you for the next few hours, if you want to read a book or something that’s fine”). At the very least I’d park them with someone else so they can get a feel for how things work even if they aren’t doing anything themselves.

          1. Chauncy Gardener*

            This happened to me once as a new hire and I vowed I would never let it happen to any of my new hires. It made me keep looking for new jobs! I have subsequently fixed the new hire onboarding processes at every company I’ve been at since. There’s really no excuse for this.

        2. Helewise*

          I had this with my last new hire, too. Phone and IT are both external and both were backed up; it was frustrating, but eventually got resolved. People are busy, enjoy your downtime while you can!

      2. Cookie Monster*

        That’s interesting because that is very much NOT the typical experience in my industry. Our first days/weeks are loaded with meetings to meet people, get onboarded, meet clients, etc.

      3. Elevator Elevator*

        Just to reiterate – the reason I didn’t have access is because the person responsible for requesting it forgot, then submitted incorrect request forms until I noticed the issue and found the correct form myself. On IT’s end it was basically a matter of checking a couple of boxes.

    2. Alex*

      This has happened to me at pretty much every job I’ve had. Getting you into the fold sometimes takes time, so be patient and try not to decide how you feel about your job in general until at least a month goes by.

  20. MissBliss*

    How do you stop feeling like work is so important?

    I’ve worked mission-focused jobs my whole career. But last year absolutely, positively, utterly, without a doubt, sucked. Half of it was personal life stuff and the other half was work stuff. I had to take a leave of absence to take care of some things and when I returned I simply did not care about work anymore, on the big level. But on the close up level, when I have a break in work-work-work because I am waiting for other people get back to me, I can’t stop feeling guilty for not trying to fill that time up with other things on the endless list. Even if I won’t get those other things *done*, I can at least make progress. But I don’t want to. I want to take the break that the cycle of work has afforded me. So how do I let myself be okay with it, without feeling guilty?

    1. Dead Bird Walking*

      This sounds like a great time to pick up an absorbing hobby outside of work. Also maybe a happy hour tradition with a friend where you meet up right after work (thus giving you incentive to wrap up and leave, and immediately taking your mind off the job). Can you schedule something most days after work if you can, like a class, gym session, whatever?

      1. MissBliss*

        It’s been hard because of some health stuff (exacerbated by work) but it’s a good idea. I will give it a shot. If it makes things harder, I can stop, but maybe it will make things better. Thank you!

    2. Qwerty*

      I have found having three pillars in my life to be helpful, rather than the common view of work/life balance.

      Make each one more specific than just “personal” vs “work” vs “hobby”. Right now work is on the back burner for you so pick something achievable within your regular work hours like “provide good customer service” rather than a growth oriented one like “become a director” or “solve the X crisis that our non-profit serves”. If you are just trying to provide good customer service and all your tasks are blocked by others, well that’s a good time to take a coffee break or do a lap around the building to clear your head. Taking care of yourself during that forced break means that you’ll perform better when you do get that response.

      When separating from a work mindset, I find getting involved in an external group to be helpful. Maybe it is volunteering, or finding a social group to engage in your hobby. But have it be important enough that you are happy to think about it during that work break and your mind has something else to think about / obsess over / give your brain a dopamine hit other than work. If that’s too much, maybe pick a complex TV show and only watch one episode a night so that your brain can obsess over “who actually did the crime” and “does Sally truly have an evil twin or was it her all along!” during that downtime to drown out the “find more work to do” voice.

    3. Frankie Bergstein*

      Are you open to books that reinforce this notion of de-centering work? If so, check out Dr. Devon Price’s _Laziness Does Not Exist_ and _Work Won’t Love You Back_. I think they talk about how and why to de-center work in a compelling, research-based way. I also think hanging out at Reddit’s anti work could be worthwhile :)

      1. MissBliss*

        Thank you for the book recs! I just read Rest Is Resistance which did help, so I will check these out as well.

    4. Throwaway Account*

      I love the other suggestions for a focus on your life outside of work. But also, I like Alison’s advice for getting out the popcorn when stuff at work is weird or crazy – get out the mental popcorn and enjoy the show. But I do that to myself too! I just observe myself not working and feeling guilty (or in my case, feeling bored). I learn a lot about me and about what I want to do by observing and feeling the feelings.

      Good luck!

    5. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I think in order to get to a place of not feeling discomfort, it might help to start by sitting with your discomfort. As in, the goal isn’t to be fully comfortable taking a break, the goal is just to acknowledge the guilt and let it roll by – and take your break anyway. No one ever died from feeling a bit uncomfortable, and distress tolerance is a skill you can practice and improve. And in practicing, the distressing thing will typically get less distressing.

  21. New Job*

    I recently switched jobs, and my new job is literally half the work of my old job. I’m feeling guilty about only working half of the time for full-time pay. My boss set the schedule of times I need to meet with clients, so it’s not that I’m slacking off, just that I’m efficient in preparing ahead of time and keeping myself organized. Boss is happy with my work and tells me to enjoy the down times.

    How do I do that? Yesterday I read a book. Today I’m watching Netflix. This feels like “stealing time,” but I don’t want to just sit all day and do nothing.

    1. cmdrspacebabe*

      I used to sign up for free courses on platforms like Coursera. You could take something practical and relevant to your work – I used it to refresh my coding skills, which comes in handy – or on something personal. If you pick things that can be relevant to your job, you might not feel as much of that guilt factor.

      1. New Job*

        Great idea! I don’t see anything specific to my industry, but personal growth helps in all areas. Thanks for the suggestion!

        1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          I always took all the communication courses. Because really, we can always improve our communication. It’s never a waste.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        This is a good idea! Organizing a series of online classes/courses that improve your skill set is a good way to use work time–it’s improving yourself as an employee.

    2. CherryBlossom*

      If your boss cleared the down time activities at work, you have nothing to feel guilty about. Enjoy catching up on netflix/books/whatever fun hobby you like!

      That being said, if you really don’t like having all this downtime, you can ask your boss if there’s anything you can take off their plate. You may not end up with anything, but at least you’ll have put in an effort to be available for more work, which might help with the guilt.

      1. New Job*

        I think some of it comes from the fact that this is a brand new team funded by a one-year grant. So we’ve all got defined roles, but maybe they weren’t well thought out when they were established (if that makes sense). My boss is off-site working on the admin side of things, so there’s not a ton that I can take off her plate because of the terms of the grant. It’s a new experience for sure!

    3. ecnaseener*

      I assume you’re salaried? You’re being paid to get the work done, not to fill up 40 hours. So it’s not stealing, you’re just a fast worker!

      That said, if you want something work-related to do during downtime, can you find something low-priority to futz around with? Organizing your files, making a beautiful color-coded spreadsheet of your projects, etc.

      1. New Job*

        I am salaried, you nailed that detail! I’ve also got the prettiest data spreadsheets with conditional formatting and color coding- gorgeous. :)

    4. Oof*

      The same thing happened to me! Enjoy it – because if you’re like me, eventually you will fill your own plate. As I was in my role longer, I found new things to propose, new projects, and in time, I was busy busy busy. :-)

      1. EngGirl*

        Yeah, about 18 months ago when I started my current job I was struggling with extreme boredom during my downtime for about the first four months. Now I yearn for those days

      2. SansaStark*

        Same thing happened to me and now I’m trying to figure out how to scale some of it back! I loved having the down time to be deliberate in what I did and not always feel like I was behind. I definitely had to remind myself a lot that I was getting paid to be available to my staff and for the work I was doing – not for my butt in seat 40 hours a week.

    5. AL*

      You can look at the time as being “engaged to wait.” If a task or a client issue comes up, presumably you will drop the book or the Netflix, so you are being paid to be available to do so! If your boss is happy and doesn’t have more work for you, you can let go of the guilt.

    7. Paint N Drip*

      I have a job like this, and I had come from 2 very busy workplaces before. First of all – you’re good! Breathe. Hit the goals and expectations and meetings, and know that you’ve done what you have been asked to do. My second set of advice depends on how things pan out – maybe things speed up to your normal or maybe you find things to fill your time like Oof noted, OR maybe this speed is THE speed. If this speed is the speed of the office, I’d recommend you design a scaffolding of personal development tasks and goals to keep your mind active and your career moving forward. I guess I can be your warning – I’ve been in this position for a few years and I feel like my work skills are atrophying, my work capacity is lower (I think going back to my former workplace would kill me), and I am understimulated into depression (now I’m struggling with moving on, this job is SO EASY but doesn’t pay enough… but how can I ask for more when it is SO easy? Looking at job postings that should align with my years of work experience, I am finding myself to be really underdeveloped compared to what’s expected)

      1. Brooklyn Otter*

        I feel exactly like this. It’s driving me crazy, and it’s been going on for years. At this point I don’t know if I could do another job, because whatever skills I had have now faded, and getting another job would likely involve both moving out of town and taking a pay cut. I feel very stuck–I have no idea what to do.

    8. Cordelia*

      When in this situation, I try to find myself things to do that are kind of work-adjacent. I work in healthcare, so I might read a popular science book rather than a novel, I would watch a documentary about something health-related rather than a comedy show.
      I’ve also done courses that might not be particularly relevant for this particular job, but would be generally useful in my career (e.g. IT or management skills)
      I also have convinced myself that its ok to do cleaning or laundry, but not something that feels like purely leisure

    9. Rainy*

      I started a new job a few months ago, and my new job is a lot less work than my old job because my old job was three people’s worth of work. :) Enjoy the downtime while you can; there will be busier times for sure.

      I don’t watch tv or anything but I do read sometimes if I’m free, or I get up and move around, do exercises/stretches (I’m currently doing PT for a knee injury and the various compensatory issues that came up while I was waiting for a PT referral!) in my office or on the stairs of my building, go see coworkers in person (if they’re free) instead of Slacking them to chat about something, etc. More work-related stuff I do: improve resources, plan for future improvements, research random stuff that catches my attention, read the many professional organization forums I have access to, that sort of thing. I currently have a data dashboard that IR made for me and I’ve been working my way through the various filter options to get a better picture of what the data is telling me.

    10. Bast*

      I work in a feast or famine office, where I either have ALL THE THINGS or like, fifteen minute’s worth of emails to send out. I used to feel VERY guilty about this, because I came from a full speed ahead, 24/7 office. It’s the nature of the beast, and my boss has acknowledged this, so I’ve come to realize the expectation is not for me to be busting butt every second of every day and have felt less guilty as time goes on. As to what to do during the downtime– this is still something that I am working on. There’s only so many articles I can read before I want to do something else.

    11. Chauncy Gardener*

      Now might be the time to take some classes you’ve been interested in but never had the time to do?

    12. BigLawEx*

      I had a boss like this. I took his advice (in my case, it did not impact raises/promotions). He was kind of a workaholic but really pushed other people not to be. The job had a lot of other problems, but I just dialed it back, and it was fine.

  22. Beauty and Roast Beef*

    I’m once again picking up the work I actively tried to move away from (was promoted to a new role in my dept last year to start learning/taking on new projects) because the person who should be doing it is incapable, and there doesn’t seem to be a plan to get rid of them. We can’t hire anyone else under them because, and I know this from experience having reported to this person prior to my promotion, they are not a good manager – quick to panic, micromanaging, unable to provide concrete support, acerbic/rude when stressed which is often. We are now the same level but I am doing work they should be managing, and frankly I’m not sure what they’re actually doing other than collecting a check. Our mutual boss is aware of the issues but my fear is that if this person is fired, then I’ll have to absorb the rest of their responsibilities and find myself in the same stressful scenario I was in a year ago.

    I’m actively job searching but it’s hard to manage my frustration while I look for my exit. Any suggestions?

    1. Generic Name*

      I mean, unless people will die or major infrastructure would fail, would it be so terrible if you stopped doing your subordinate’s job for them? There likely isn’t a plan to get rid of them because from upper management’s perspective, the work is getting done, so there is no problem.

    2. Ms. Yvonne*

      Do you meet with your boss regularly to keep them abreast in general? Because perhaps you could frame the burden as one of those “I can do my xyz, or Other Person’s ABC, because without ABC we cannot _______. I won’t have time for both, where would you like me to focus?” kinds of scenarios. (Using AAM advice language). Put it into language that makes it clear you don’t have time for Other Person’s workload (yet you keep inheriting tasks) and your own, then keep doing this delivery regularly? It sounds super frustrating, your boss has to absorb some of this pain, too.

  23. Dead Bird Walking*

    My nonprofit is in the process of dissolving. It’s very sad. It also affects me personally because I will ultimately lose my job, which I’ve really enjoyed (obviously, I’m looking). On the other hand, it’s nice to get a long heads up in the hope that I’ll find something. Here’s my problem: the board is meeting regularly to discuss this. My boss seems to think I should be at these meetings and presumably would want to. I do understand, more information is better. But these meetings are stressful to me. I’m not supposed to talk, they’re usually in the evening or weekends, and they’re talking about laying me off. They also have a “private session” that they pointedly ask me and my boss to leave for – totally understand it’s normal and not personal, but I still just find the whole thing unpleasant, sad, stressful. It’s bad for my morale as I try to do the best job I can in the days we have left. What language can I use to my boss to beg off attending these?

    1. MigraineMonth*

      Have you been learning information that’s useful *for your job* in these meetings? If not, I’d focus on that: they’re taking up significant time and you haven’t found them useful.

      You could add that the schedule is inconvenient or that you are finding them demoralizing if you want to, but just “not useful” is probably sufficient (since you’re not there to give input to the board).

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Unless you have some sort of major fiduciary role in your org or you’re in HR, I’d ask if you can just read the minutes going forward since these meetings are taking up a lot of your evenings and weekends without requiring your direct participation.

    3. HugeTractsofLand*

      From how you describe it, it doesn’t sound like your boss feels strongly about this. If he really is just “presuming” that you want to be there, I would try a gentle but clear push-back. Something like: “Can I ask you about something? I’m not finding the board meetings particularly helpful. The hours are tough to manage and nothing comes up that I can act on at work. I actually find it demotivating to attend, since it puts the layoffs front of mind. Can I stop attending, or are these a work requirement?”

      Don’t feel guilty about not wanting to attend. We all cope with bad news in different ways, and there’s no need to stress yourself out more than you already are.

    4. Kay*

      You suddenly have important things scheduled on the evenings/weekends these things are taking place – even if that important thing is relax, eat dinner, sleep – you get my point.

    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Honestly, at this point all you are looking to salvage is a good reference. I don’t know that you need to be all that delicate unless your boss is overly sensitive. This is not a good use of either your work or personal time.

  24. hypoglycemic rage*

    Hi, I’ve written before about issues with my boss at the law firm, but things escalated yesterday, and I’d like some advice.

    I accidentally left an unmonitored door unlocked while I was setting up for a seminar in another area of the office (so the door was not unlocked for the seminar). I was running late due to circumstances beyond my control, and I used this door as a shortcut. Afterward, I went to lunch. A delivery person walked into the office through this unlocked door. Due to the layout, they had to walk a fair distance through the suite to run into another person.

    For some context: This door is often left unlocked when we have meetings or guests, though it’s generally supposed to remain locked for security reasons. It’s not propped open when unlocked. Depending on the duration of the meetings, the door can remain unlocked for a significant part of the day (although that policy might be changing now). We do have a clearly labeled doorbell for guests to ring. In the almost year I’ve worked here, no one has ever just walked in without ringing the bell.

    When my boss found out it was me who left it unlocked, she yelled at me loudly enough that several coworkers overheard. Since this isn’t the first time something like this has happened, I’ve decided to speak with our new HR person. Some of my coworkers who witnessed the incident have offered to back me up if I decide to file a formal complaint. It’s reassuring to know I have their support, especially since I ended up crying in front of some colleagues who checked on me afterward.

    I’m unsure how to approach this. Should I send an email to HR to schedule a meeting, or is there a better way to start the conversation? Do I need to document this incident in writing or prepare a statement? I’d appreciate any advice on how to handle this situation. I am also not looking for an apology from my boss – I don’t think I’d get one anyway. I guess I just want some kind of documentation, since this has happened before.

    Additionally, I’m looking for a new job. If anyone has any suggestions for library-adjacent roles, I’d love to hear them. I do have my MLIS (I got it well before the pandemic and am not interested in working in public libraries as intended when I got said degree).

    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I’m sorry this happened to you. Law firms can be just The Worst.

      What is the outcome that you want from going to HR?

      Also, if the yeller is a partner, odds are HR can’t do a damn thing about it.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        no no my boss is the office manager. so NOT a partner.

        I just want this to be on record. as I said in my initial post, I don’t want or even expect I’d get an apology from my boss. but similar situations like this has happened before. this is just the first time people have directly told me they witnessed it.

        1. Scriveaaa*

          Once it’s on record (or multiple things are on record), what do you want to happen? Like, what’s the ultimate goal of having this on record? I think that will help you decide if it’s worth the effort to do.

          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            I’m going to HR, my mind has been made up about that. I just don’t know how to approach it initially.

            but I want to talk so that if this happens again, I can know that this is a pattern, especially if I go to HR again (but hopefully not). I deserve better than to be yelled at, I am an adult and she can talk to me as an adult. yelling is not appropriate, IMO. especially if multiple people overhear.

    2. MsM*

      Send the email to request the meeting with HR. Tell them you need to file a complaint regarding your boss, and ask what kind of documentation it would be helpful for you to bring to this initial discussion. Even if they tell you that you don’t need anything for now, though, it probably would help to at least put together a timeline of the issues and any steps you’ve already taken to address the problem with your boss, and circle back with the employees who offered to back you up to let them know you are moving forward with this and you’d appreciate statements from them if HR requests those.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        thank you so much for this, it’s exactly what I was looking for! I already have a note on my phone with some of this stuff, that I could edit to make more formal if needed.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        HR should also know, if they don’t already, that the policy around this door is fuzzy at best! It’s supposed to be locked, except when it isn’t, different times and meetings mean it’s locked or not or…

        Not only should this policy be clarified with EVERYONE for safety’s sake, it also eliminates a [specious] “reason” for your boss to be upset (even if they had handled it appropriately, which they did not.)

        1. Hypoglycemic rage*

          I do appreciate this validation that my boss did not handle this correctly, even as I did make a mistake.

    3. Rex Libris*

      Academic law libraries need staff with both an MLIS and a background in law. Some corporate offices maintain private research or legal librarians as well. Or consider public libraries in a Technical Services role (cataloging, collection development, administration, etc.) It’s not normally a public facing role, so there’s not as much of a customer service component to it.

    4. Jenn*

      My suggestion would be to document the incident: date, time, witnesses, and facts of the incident and then send that in an email to HR with bcc to your personal email, requesting a meeting to discuss the incident. If you have documentation of other incidents with your boss, I would recommend bringing those forward to show a pattern. [disclaimer: I am not an HR professional, and have had my own cruddy bosses at a couple of workplaces that have required HR intervention]

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        thank you for this comment. I’ll make sure to get more specific in my note, in case something formal is needed. this is the first time I’ve gone to HR at any job – although there have been times I’ve wanted t o go but didn’t for various reasons. I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with similar situations.

    5. Lissa Landon*

      Much as I hate to say it, in my experience, what HR will hear is that you did something wrong and you’re upset about getting in trouble for doing it. I hope that isn’t the case, but I’ve never seen a supervisor disciplined for raising their voice. I guess I’d suggest you be prepared to deal with the door issue before you get them to hear you on the yelling issue.

      1. Hm.*

        I have to agree; while it was inappropriate for your supervisor to yell, you’re being very cavalier about leaving the door unlocked and not taking any responsibility for this. If you maintain the “it’s not my fault they ignored the sign” argument, that’s going to be what HR focuses on because you seem unaware of the risks of leaving the door unlocked.

        1. hypoglycemic rage*

          I do take responsibility for this. I understand that a mistake was made and that I messed up. I own up to that now and I will also do that with HR (and have also done so with my boss).

          I was just trying to give context to show that this is not the only time the door has been left unlocked, as we unlock it often for meetings, and I know for a fact in the past other people have used it as a shortcut as well.

          I was not trying to absolve myself of responsibility or wrongdoing and I am sorry that that’s how I came across.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            It’s hard to thread this needle between “not my fault” deflection and the reality of how the office handles this door (casually, it sounds like) but I would try to frame it, as I said above, that the policy around it being locked seems to be somewhat blurry (especially if you see your peers or people above you in the company regularly leaving it open/using it as a shortcut.)

            1. Hypoglycemic rage*

              Yeah I’m probably the lowest in the food chain and the door policy was fuzzy at best – because nothing was said, office wide, about how the side door shouldn’t be propped open. I’ll make sure to go this angle with HR.

      2. hypoglycemic rage*

        I appreciate knowing this and will keep it in mind. I just wanted to give context, that this was not the only time the door was open/unlocked. I know I made a mistake, I understand that and will make sure to make this as clear as I can with HR.

        I just don’t appreciate getting yelled at, especially at work, and where other people overheard (even if they have my back). if she had not yelled, talked to me like the adult I am, I would not be going to HR. I can handle getting in trouble, that is not what this is about.

    6. hypoglycemic rage*

      thanks yall for your help on this matter.

      I want to empathize that I know I made a mistake. upon further reflection, I don’t think I realized how big a mistake this was.

      because we also have a side door that people actually do prop open often – it’s one of the doors we use to scan in to our suite, and it’s the primary door people use for the bathroom access. so people prop it open if they don’t have their keycard, if they don’t want to go back to their desks. since this has happened since I started a year ago without any incidents (and again, it’s clearly propped open) and nobody has said anything, I didn’t think much of leaving the unmonitored door unlocked since it wasn’t nearly as obvious.

      my boss sent out an office-wide email reminding us to lock the unmonitored door after a guest has entered (which is a new policy i guess?) but also to not prop open the side door. which it sounds like she was aware of for awhile but hasn’t said anything. which again I think made me not realize how severe this mistake was, because to me, the side door has been propped open and nobody has said anything.

      that said, I am still going to HR because I don’t think yelling was appropriate – especially if there have been other incidents of this happening (side door) that management was aware of but hadn’t said anything.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        There are 2 separate things here that are being conflated.

        1: You did a thing you should not have done. <–You accept this was your mistake. Will fix it/not do again. If boss can speak and not yell, you could talk about how this happened and how to avoid it happening again.

        2. Your boss yelled at you, which they should not have done. <–You do not accept this behavior. Boss needs to fix boss' mistake of yelling.

        Focus on the yelling. As of now, you're writing this as though you think there *is* an acceptable time for your boss to yell, but that this time didn't count. The other incidents don't matter. It's not like 2 wrongs make a right.

        What you want to say to HR is that boss shouldn't be yelling for any reason. Boss is yelling instead of using their words in a calm, professional tone speaking to another professional who made a mistake.

        BTW, you don't need additional witnesses to report to HR. You are a witness to boss yelling at you previously. You can mention this is the 3rd time.

        1. Hypoglycemic rage*

          Thank you for the response!

          I only brought up people overhearing in case HR doesn’t, like, believe me or something. Or if they talk to my boss and she denies or or says I’m making it up. HR could talk to the people I named. (This might not be how things work, I’ve never had something like this happen.)

  25. Panda*

    Hi all. I am the one who wanted to take a new job, but would have had to pay back a large signing bonus if I left my current job before two years were up. Currentjob was a terrible cultural fit for me and I was assigned much different work than I was hired to do. After a discussion with my therapist and my husband, I ended up taking the new job and was even willing to pull money out of my retirement account to pay back the signing bonus. In my resignation email, I told them I received an offer I could not refuse, listed the work I would complete in my remaining 3 weeks, and asked to pay back 75% of the original signing bonus based on the great work I had done while I was there and that I had stayed 1.5 years of the 2 years required. I was the SME expert on areas of compliance and took that on without any training, creating a project plan to complete all the tasks, etc. My manager went to bat for me with the higher ups and they accepted my offer. In addition, my new company gave me a signing bonus that will cover that payment to the (almost) old company and I am still eligible to receive whatever bonus is issued for the 2024 work I received so I will end up ahead. It just goes to show that it doesn’t hurt to try to negotiate something that looks like it was set in stone.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      75%? You should have asked for 25% since you were there for 75% of the time. Don’t know if they would have agreed, but you probably would have gotten something better than you did.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Let me rephrase this for you. Congratulations! This was a hard negotiation, I’m glad it went well.

        If you had asked for 25%, I think you might have gotten that. Of course, I have the benefit of hindsight. Now that you’ve successfully negotiated once, you can be bolder next time.

  26. ROAnon*

    Hi all, got a weird question.

    I’ve been working remote since the pandemic, but am interviewing for a few roles that may be hybrid or in-office. I’m fine with that, otherwise I wouldn’t be interviewing with them.

    My question is: I have a restraining order–a final one, not a temporary one–against an ex. I understand that that isn’t relevant in any interviews or the hiring process, so I wouldn’t bring it up in those. But at some point, I assume that I should disclose it in case my ex decides she wants to cause trouble. So with all that background, the actual question is, when, to whom, and how do I tell my new employer that I have a restraining order against someone?

    Anyway, thanks in advance for your responses everyone.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      So there are a few things you could do throughout the process, but I think it really depends on what the role is. Is it client facing where people would walk off the street and see you first. OR would you be in a separate area where only workers would be.

      One thing you could do is ask in the interview a generic question about the location and security. Depending on the role you could possibly tie the question to the requirements. “I see that the role description works with private data. Can you tell me how the company operates with sensitive information and what security measures you take.” this could help you find out if they have key card access only, etc.

      Once you have an offer on the first day or shortly before you could ask about security. “I have a restraining order from my ex. It should not be a problem, but I would like to know who I can inform if this person comes or calls for me.”

      1. ROAnon*

        Thank you for the response! I do not work in a public-facing role, though once or twice a year I go to industry conferences and I’m sorta “public-facing” in that context, within my industry. However, the ex and I work in completely different industries, so there’s no reason for her to attend those and likely zero reason for them to find out before-the-fact, since I have my socials locked down pretty well and I have blocked her on LinkedIn.

        So, there’s no reason for her to walk in off the street unknowingly, or for a regular business reason I don’t exactly work behind the counter at Chipotle, no offense to fast food workers! The issue would be if the ex sees/finds out about any new job I take, looks up the address, and decides (also, this ex has a firearms permit, which… means I should absolutely alert a new employer)

        1. ROAnon*

          Sorry, accidentally hit submit!

          The issue would be if my ex finds out my new job, and decides to cause trouble.

          It sounds like I should be talking to facilities or HR a little while after I start a new job. As I’m male and she is female, I do feel anxious about the perception there, but I think if I keep it to the facts: “hi, I have a restraining order against my ex. Wanted to bring it to your attention before this person may cause any trouble. Here is a copy. Doubt we’ll need to talk about this again. Have a nice day!” it should be fine.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            I think that’s just fine. At my old job, reception had someone’s photo behind the desk because that person was not to be let in. HR or facilities likely already has a process; and if they don’t, well, now’s the time for them to figure it out.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      If it’s not a job with public access (librarian, clerk, teacher, etc) then I wouldn’t bring it up at all. If your ex shows up at work, then it becomes something to discuss. Treat the RO separately from the employment. If ex shows up at your office, follow the same steps you would at home, notify the police of the violation of the RO.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I disagree that he shouldn’t bring it up at all. He doesn’t need to go into details but he could say that if this person comes please let me know and call the police.

        1. ROAnon*

          I understand where the person you’re replying to is coming from. I’m a man, well over 6′ tall, and into bodybuilding, so I’m a very large man which means it it may look … strange for me to have a restraining order against a woman, especially to people with more traditional attitudes or whatever. And I want to make the best impression from the start of the interview process all the way through my last day at any job. But that all said, I think you’re right, and it’s better to bring it up in advance. That way, if an incident occurs, it’ll be crystal clear that I am not the troublemaker there and they can just escort her off premises, call the police, or whatever procedure security and facilities has for these situations.

          1. Rainy*

            I would bring it up once you’re hired–it’s a kindness to the team to let them know there’s a small risk of someone showing up or otherwise trying to gain entry to the premises, and it’s helpful for your workplace security to know that there’s a person who’s not allowed to be there before they make a terrible mistake by letting someone in who shouldn’t be there.

            And look, if I met you as a new colleague and you said “hey look, I have a restraining order against this person and they have a history of trying to interfere with my employment and/or approach my colleagues,” I would first of all welcome the heads-up so I can be vigilant and second, my assumption, even if you are a huge dude, would be that if you were actually motivated to pursue an RO *and* able to successfully get one, she must have done something *really bad*. Because I have known folks who failed to persuade a judge that they needed a RO against someone who tried to kill them.

            1. ROAnon*

              Well, thank you for your vote of confidence! Though I’m saddened to hear about anyone who wasn’t able to get a restraining order.

              In my case it was pretty simple: she had a history of harassing me (block her on Facebook -> my phone gets flooded with texts and calls, for example), and also owned guns. I presented that to a judge and that was basically it. It was upheld on final review. Also, both her parents own guns, which is cool.

              I’ll leave it till after I’ve started, then I’ll share the info with HR and my manager. I don’t think it’s smart to tell future coworkers about it – I assume most people are rational actors so if they get a crazy email or LinkedIn message or whatever about me they’ll take it to my manager, who’ll know about the RO, and handle it. I have no idea how common manager training for this sort of situation is, but I know that it’s sadly a known phenomenon; if it wasn’t, restraining orders wouldn’t exist.

              Some of the companies I’m interviewing with rent office space, in that case I assume HR will accompany me to speak with the facilities staff about it, or I’ll just ask them about that. Others own their offices outright, and I’d assume that case is a bit simpler: HR probably would just collect the info from me and send out an email to facilities/security/whatever like “new hire has a restraining order against someone. Here’s their name, a photo, and physical description. If they show up call the cops.” I guess.

              1. Rainy*

                Situations like these are tough to deal with because of balancing privacy with a need-to-know, and I think it’s very normal if the tension between those imperatives feels really hard to navigate. But I would assume a willingness to help from your new employer unless you see that they aren’t, and give them the info they need to keep you and your new colleagues safe from this person’s harassment.

                I’m sorry that your ex thought harassing you was okay, and I’m really glad that you were able to get some legal support to mitigate that! Good luck with your interviews and I hope you get a great offer. :)

            2. goddessoftransitory*

              I agree. I would feel horrible if I accidentally helped out someone like this with information because I didn’t know the circumstances.

              1. ROAnon*

                While I’ve never worked in HR, I assume that mature HR orgs have policies for dealing with situations like this. I’m entering all this assuming the best of everyone else. I’d also assume that part of that SOP would be alerting the rest of the department or company without causing a fuss. Again, never done it and never seen it, but I assume it’d be an email blast saying something like “X person is not allowed at our offices, if they show up or ask around about any of our employees, please alert the HR/People Team.”

                It’s a question I’ll note down to ask any future employer’s HR department, once it’s appropriate and relevant.

            3. Dancing Otter*

              Yeah, there was a case here recently that made headlines. The cops hadn’t gotten around to confiscating weapons pursuant to a court order of protection, and she was murdered.

          2. BigLawEx*

            While I appreciate your gender/size – that’s not a defense against a firearm. I’d let them know when hired. Also, it’s a kindness to your coworkers who may not be on alert. (Not that they should know, but someone equipped can call the police before anyone else is in danger).

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Talk to HR, who will likely loop in Security for the practical parts of this.

      A good HR department will already have procedures for how to handle this sort of thing, and may also have internal policies about interpersonal violence / workplace violence that can cover things like abusive contacts outside the org. HR can help guide you through the policy and collect other details confidentially, and Security will get whatever details they need to make sure you (and your new colleagues!) are kept safe, e.g. they’ll take down her name and a physical description, and they may ask you for a photo so they can circulate a “trespass warning” memo to the company that tells people to call Security if they encounter that person, etc.

      I would do this on my first day if you’re meeting with HR as part of your onboarding, or your first week if not (so you can schedule an actual meeting with them). If you’re concerned your ex might do something that first week, I’d get in touch with HR by email prior to starting.

    4. Generic Name*

      Welcome to the club of unstable exes!! :/ I also have a permanent restraining order from my ex. I would wait until you have the job before saying anything, and I would talk to HR as a first step. What else you do depends on the particulars of your office. My current office has a front desk with contracted security, so I gave the folks at the front desk a picture of my ex and explained I have a restraining order against him. Everything was handled very discreetly and I feel very safe.

      1. ROAnon*

        I’m really sorry to hear that you dealt with that. I hope that you never hear from him again, and never have to think about him again, either.

        1. Generic Name*

          Thank you. :) It’s honestly been a completely bizarre experience. I’m just glad a judge took it seriously.

          1. Donottry*

            Just a question do you have to reveal it’s an ex? can you just say that you have a restraining order against someone? I don’t know it would make a difference, but I’m just thinking it might.

            1. ROAnon*

              That’s a fair question, since I don’t want to overshare with any hypothetical new job. The flip side of that coin, though, is that it’s reasonable for Hypothetical New Manager and Hypothetical New HR Department to be curious about what’s up. So IMO, the balance is to just say “I have a restraining order against my ex.” That’s enough info. People may wonder and fill in the blanks as they like, but someone having to take a restraining order out against their ex-{boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, fiance, etc.} is a known thing. It’s just uncommon.

              My gut feeling is that refusing to elaborate beyond “I have a restraining order against this person” would look sketchy and start off my new working relationships on the wrong foot. That’d leave them to wonder if I have some skeletons in my closet, like, I dunno, owing tons of money to loan sharks or something. Meanwhile “I have a restraining order against my ex, here’s the info, I don’t want to make a big deal out of it but I want to be upfront” is an understandable, sympathetic situation.

              Felt like I was channeling my inner Alison there, ha!

    5. Detective Pikachu*

      Am I the only one who finds this kind of extremely casually sexist? There’s a TON of “haha, women are so crazy, am I right?” from both OP and repliers. Which does not align with the statistics on DV and IPV.

      OP, I am not casting doubt on your situation. I’m just suggesting that everyone here do some introspection on their biases towards men and women.

      1. Mauricio Horace*

        I…don’t see it that way at all? The original commenter was very neutral and just described the facts and concerns. He even switched between “she” and “they” to refer to the ex-partner, which would imply that the original person doesn’t find the genders to be especially relevant here.

        I would never deny that misogyny (let’s say that instead of sexism, since prejudice against women is more pervasive and damaging) is real, widespread, and harmful, but the genders of the people involved here haven’t been made to be anything more than a side mention.

      2. Rainy*

        Yes, I think it’s just you. I don’t think anyone has been casually sexist. The OP said “I have a restraining order against someone, how do I let a new employer know that there’s someone who can’t be allowed on the premises”, and the commenters have been giving ideas and advice for how to handle that situation. I treated him exactly the same as I would (and have!) a female friend who had a restraining order against an ex, because there is no difference.

        I am glad he was able to get a restraining order, because I’ve lived in states where they are extremely difficult to obtain no matter how obviously a danger someone is.

      3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        I saw absolutely zero bitches be crazy. Maybe that’s in your own head.

        I mean, OP is acknowledging sexism is real. His experience as a large man with a restraining order against a smaller woman is met with ridicule, but you think his attitude is the problem. And you’re sending him to his room to think about it.

        You might also do some introspection on saying “it’s not that I doubt you, but”…

        1. Rainy*

          I guess it’s possible that Alison has been aggressively moderating this thread and Detective Pikachu saw a bunch of comments that were quickly deleted? But I was refreshing around the time the comment was posted and I didn’t see anything, so I dunno.

      4. ROAnon*

        I’m very sorry if I came off that way. It wasn’t my intention, but I understand once something’s out there, the original speaker doesn’t really have any right to dictate how people feel about their statements.

        If there is something in particular that I said that was misogynistic and would cause people offense or hurt, and you would be willing to elucidate, I’m eager to hear your perspective on it. I have no desire to be sexist toward anyone.

        1. allathian*

          I don’t think that acknowledging the fact that most people who need restraining orders against an ex are women who are being victimized by men, and that men, particularly tall and muscular men, who need a restraining order against a woman may find they aren’t taken seriously is sexist.

          But as someone else said, size’s no protection against a gun.

    6. Sara K*

      I am a boss and we have had this situation at my work. What my employee did was tell HR who then arranged matters with security and facilities so that people on the front desk were aware that her ex was not to be allowed into the facility and that police were to be called if the ex became hostile or aggressive (there were some circumstances that made this likely). I signed off on these arrangements as the boss. No-one else was told about the situation but I think that the employee herself told a few colleagues who were her work friends so she had some day to day emotional support.

      I think in your situation you should definitely tell your HR and ensure that facilities/security is aware given that your ex has a licenced firearm(s). For the safety of not only you but others in the workplace this is something that the people who look after security and employee health and safety need to be aware of.

      I’m sorry you are in this situation. It sucks that your ex is able to intrude herself into your life in this way.

  27. Chaotic*

    Has anyone gone to working 9-5 after years of working part time and very flexible hours? I’m interviewing for full time regular hours jobs but worried I won’t be able to handle it. I took years off due to mental health, which is much better now but I’m also a little concerned about back sliding.

    1. StressedButOkay*

      I’d put in questions of the culture – how flexible are they in letting people work from home as needed, or flexing hours, etc. – into your interview questions. You’re not always going to get an upfront answer (“Oh we let everyone telework 3 x a week!” to find out they do not do that.) but it’s good to ask.

    2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Yes, but I was very picky about certain aspects of the job I took. Which did mean lower pay.

      I work where I have a very short commute. I have a medical condition that can make me very very sleepy by the end of the day and it was physically painful to stay awake on a long trafficky rush hour commute.

      I work where 8-5 really means 8-5. Not “8-5 but we really mean 7-7 and on call 24×7”

      I work with people who truly believe in leaving work at work. (I got a little lucky on this one but I was up front about work life balance in the interview)

      And since COVID proved we did not ALL need to be here all the time – I do work from home on Wednesdays since having that middle of the week at home has resolved many of my fatigue issues from compounding through the week. We are customer facing so someone needs to be here all the time, but not everyone.

      1. Donottry*

        If you’re doing this for financial reasons, is there any way you can look for part-time jobs that would offer you a higher wage or offer benefits? I tried to do this and was spectacularly unsuccessful. I would never work full-time again.

  28. HydroHomie*

    Am I obligated to offer to help my coworker with their workload?

    One of my coworkers was promoted to a salary position recently. They’re learning their new job and still covering the vital portions of their old job right now. (Though they keep getting behind in their old work because they’re busy.)

    I could hypothetically help with one of their vital, time-consuming tasks, but have not offered to help yet because I’ve been behind on my own work the past few weeks (because of the recent holidays and squeezing in year-end projects that were due that I rarely had time to work on because I’m always so busy).

    If I get to a point where I’m caught up on my work, should I be offering to help with hers? I feel very bad that she’s getting so behind, but I’m hourly (and am not supposed to work overtime), always busy (and can easily get behind in work when there’s sudden crisies to deal with), and I wonder if the fact that she got a big pay raise means she should just expect to deal with the stress of a bigger workload for a while until they hire a replacement.

    2. MigraineMonth*

      Do your work first, and since you’re hourly you cannot work overtime without authorization. If you have additional time, why not ask your manager/supervisor if they want you to help with your coworker’s tasks?

      What you don’t want to do is get into the trap of sacrificing your own work (or working illegal overtime!) to prop up your coworker in a way that hides the unsustainable workload from management. In the worst case, it could convince the company that they don’t need to hire a replacement.

    3. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      You do not need to volunteer for this. Your co-worker can manage her workload with her supervisor. If some of her old job work needs to be distributed to you, that should come from your supervisor.

      You don’t need to feel bad. This isn’t your problem to fix. You can certainly feel sympathy for her, but you don’t need to do her job for her.

    4. StressedButOkay*

      I tell my direct reports – do your work first. That’s what you’re paid to do. If you’re asked – by your manager – to assist, then that’s the sign to figure out how to balance your work and (some) of the hers.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I would say that you shouldn’t offer to help unless your boss has said you should. It sounds like it is very easy for your own work to get behind. So you shouldn’t take on a task that could potentially put your other work behind.

      If you are close to the coworker you could suggest that she reach out to her manager or someone else in a similar role for assistance.

    6. Alice*

      I agree with the sentiment people are expressing, that you don’t need to volunteer. (Though I do think you should make sure your boss knows about your workload/availability after you are caught up — don’t leave your boss believing you are still catching up when you are actually caught up. If you ever do get caught up — you said you are always busy.)
      But I am getting a vibe from “if the fact that she got a big pay raise means she should just expect to deal with the stress of a bigger workload for a while until they hire a replacement.” The pay rise is not for doing TWO jobs. The pay rise is for doing a DIFFERENT job. I don’t see why it’s up to the person who is changing jobs to mitigate the impact of the change on the old department. The person who is dealing with the problem of the understaffed department should be the boss of the department.
      If your coworker had resigned from your team to take a salaried job at a competing company, no one would expect them to cover the old job. The old department manager would find a way to make it work (probably by leaning heavily on you and your remaining coworkers).

    7. Goddess47*

      That’s a management decision! They have not backfilled the position and they are responsible for the workload… especially since you are already busy.

      IF you are asked to help, then negotiate overtime or a bonus (and get it in writing!) so that they know you are not simply volunteering.

      The workload of your coworker is *her* boss’s problem to solve. Not yours!

      Good luck!

    8. Chauncy Gardener*

      I say no, unless your manager asks you to. You seem to have a full plate and they do not want you to work OT. It is your company’s responsibility to staff itself appropriately.

  29. Feline Meteorologist*

    sort of a low stakes question, but I have a green, young co-worker who has been running into all kinds of problems on one of our shared projects. he checks in often with a now-retired former coworker to figure out how to approach these problems. I don’t know that our boss knows he’s doing this, but he’s not shy about saying “I talked to Asher and he said this.” He’s also the type where, if the boss were to tell him he shouldn’t do this, he would continue to do it, but just hide that he’s doing it. So I guess, as a coworker and not manager, should I let this go?

    1. Qwerty*

      Yeah, this sounds a little bit of a “not my circus, not my monkeys”

      I think very green people like this should have a mentor on their team who they work with frequently. Do you want to take on that role? If so, then your conversation with your boss would be about taking over mentoring Green Coworker now that Retired Coworker is gone while avoiding any judgment that Green Coworker reaches out to Retired Coworker. Help Green Coworker learn how to figure out the approach himself and build his confidence in his abilities, and he’ll likely naturally decrease how much he asks for help.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Unless it’s affecting your work, or you’ve been assigned his mentor or something, you should let it go.

  30. HugeTractsofLand*

    I need advice on whether to take an internal job offer or keep searching externally. I’m 8 years into my career and feel a little behind where I should be. I was on the fast track to management at my last company and earning a high salary (it was a high COL city), but when I moved during the pandemic I had to take a role that was more entry level with a big paycut and less room for advancement. I’ve been looking externally at remote jobs that earn 20k more than I currently do and are in line with with my skills and where I want to be. However, I was just informally offered an internal position. The internal position has a modest pay bump (5-7k) but is a role with broader impact and would allow me to learn skills I can definitely leverage in the future. My ideal role would be hybrid- not fully remote- and the internal position said they can likely write in X number of remote days into my contract.

    Am I selling myself short if I take the internal role? It’s a sure thing that will set me up to be more competitive later, and it definitely has perks, but I already feel behind financially and in seniority. What factors would you consider?

    1. MigraineMonth*

      Why not take the internal role and keep searching? It would let you learn new skills while also being picky about only applying for really good outside opportunities.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        I’m leaning towards this for sure, I just think it would mean committing to the internal job for at least a year so I can actually build those skills/claim the experience. Not terrible, but still a commitment.

    2. Colette*

      There’s no milestones you need to hit – if you’re making enough to support yourself and are doing work that interests you, that’s success.

      I don’t know what $5 K vs $20 K means to your life, but you aren’t competing with anyone; live the life you want to live.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        I know, but this is a good reminder. A big reason for the job change besides finances is that I don’t find this work as interesting as what I used to do; they’re the same vein, but this is on a much smaller/less impactful scale.

    3. Rex Libris*

      Personally, I’d spend some time thinking about where the feeling of being “behind” is coming from. Behind what? By whose standards? I’d also take the internal offer. A bird in the hand and all that. It’s also not a bad thing for your resume to show promotions and increasing responsibilities at the same employer.

      1. Motivation*

        “Personally, I’d spend some time thinking about where the feeling of being “behind” is coming from. Behind what? By whose standards?”

        This stood out to me too. There are some rational arguments to be made (as how much money is left at the end of the month, a bigger salary should not always be the deciding factor if it is consumed by high cost of living), but I have the feeling that OP is looking at this very emotionally in terms of success and competetiveness.
        OP, do you even like your job? Do you like the company, so you get feedback, do you feel your current position plays to your strengths, do you feel the new position will play to your strengths etc?
        There is a lot more to consider than just salary and hybrid/remote

        1. HugeTractsofLand*

          Finances are a concern given my life stage + salaries not keeping pace with inflation, but I also enjoyed my last job far more than my current one. My last job had a great supervisor, focused on my development, had lots of engaging new projects and a broad impact, and my current one doesn’t. Content-wise, it’s like I used to be a teapot designer and now I just brew tea in one. I wouldn’t say I care about competitiveness, but there’s the emotional factor of knowing I’m capable of more. All reasons to change up the current situation!

      2. HugeTractsofLand*

        Ok phew, I thought internal promotions might look good on my resume, but wasn’t sure if I was just rationalizing. Thanks for the food for thought.

    4. Lanam*

      Take the internal role and keep searching. It might take you a year to find your ideal external job that you actually get a job offer from. So there’s no reason to turn town this role in the meantime – especially since it’s more money, remote days, and skills to draw on that could make it easier to land your next position.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        Thanks for the advice, this is definitely where I’m leaning! I’d love to accidentally fall in love with the internal role while I’m at it.

  31. Justin*

    We have too many systems/programs at work. But that’s fairly normal.

    I actually run our learner management system because I’m in charging of (external-facing) training we offer, and that system runs well (maybe because I designed it, lol).

    Perhaps our least effective system is our performance management system, which never retains passwords, is very difficult to access, is impossible to edit, etc. And ironically it’s called “success” factors.

    I say all this to say that with my ADHD there’s almost nothing I hate more than something not doing what it’s supposed to do, so that means that by the time I write my self-assessment, I’ve grown so frustrated that I write less than I ought to about my work. My boss said, hey man, you’re not giving yourself enough credit.

    So now I’m going to pre-plan for it to work poorly and write out my self-assessment on a document than copy paste it in, allowing for it to break, but truthfully I think that this actually lowers peoples’ assessments, which affects our bonuses. Thankfully my boss knows this all and it’s been fine for me specifically, but I can’t speak for every manager in the entire company. Boo bad programs!

    I’m just venting. What about you all, which company-wide system/program’s poor functioning hinders your work in impactful ways?

    1. Generic Name*

      Huh, my company also uses success factors, and it works fine for me. It logs me in automatically. Do you have on-site IT? I suggest submitting a ticket to see if they can help with your access issues. Maybe it’s just a poorly designed system (in which case they’ll have at least one record of someone struggling to use it) or there is some issue IT could fix. I also get frustrated when stuff doesn’t work like it’s supposed to. (Our timekeeping system kind of sucks) I try to tell myself that I’m getting paid to enter in my time/fill out my evaluation, so if it takes longer so be it.

      1. Justin*

        I am absolutely certain it doesn’t work because of the way our HR has chosen to use it.

        And unfortunately it’s HR that runs the password parts. They help me when I ask, but I shouldn’t have to ask every single time I try to use it.

        Yeah, I don’t get frustrated it’s taking work time per se, I just get annoyed time is being wasted.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      OH HELLO SUCCESS FACTORS. Nice to see you. And by “nice,” I mean “go to hell.” I do absolutely write stuff out elsewhere first and then copy and paste it in, and encourage my reports to do the same when they write their self-assessments. I think that should be part of the training on the product.

    3. Honeybadger*

      My company has a performance management system that is designed inhouse. It’s not terrible. Single Sign-on makes accessing it easy. It’s decently formatted, easy to update, allows interim saves so you can do your work and save without submitting. This allows you to start at any time and simply update as you go. And yet, I still do all my work offline in Word and then copy/paste the final product in when the item is due. I too have ADHD and offline is easiest for me to deal with.

      Right now, my biggest issue is with the major initiatives around security that make use of multiple poorly designed and maintained sites to accomplish business mandatory privacy and security reviews in order to get my stuff published. Big push around leveraging AI Chat Bots for internal work. I have one, first for my group, but I can’t get it moved forward because it requires multiple Ph.d’s to navigate the exception process. Every time I go to do something, I have to plan for an additional 3 weeks of headache inducing effort to get through security approval processes so I can start my project.

    5. Wordybird*

      Being a type of PM and not being allowed to use PM software is right up there on my list. Other departments use PM software but because we have 2 or 3 higher-up people (out of around 30) who don’t like or want to use new software, we have to do everything by email. It drives me crazy.

  32. Lily Rowan*

    I posted once before about chairing the search committee for my church’s new minister, and I can report we have been successful! Woo hooo!!! That last hurdle was a lot of event planning, which is not really my forte, but all worked out. Now we just have to work on transitions.

  33. Anon for this*

    Signing up for a training conference when you’re not sure if you might quit your job before the conference?

    There is a training conference in about 3 months. The deadline to sign up is today. I’m not sure what the cancellation policy is but I do know that if we don’t go, we have to reimburse the company for any nonrefundable attendance fees. I’m not sure whether I should go ahead and sign up or try to come up with some reason not to go.

    If relevant, I’m thinking about applying for other jobs because although my workplace is great, there are some issues in this city that I’ve really been struggling with (the overall culture/attitudes of the general population, cost of living, and access to healthcare are big ones). My managers are well aware of some of the issues and they might suspect that I’ll end up moving away at some point, but haven’t had any direct conversations about it.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would treat this like an umbrella, you know, like you leave your umbrella at home, it will probably rain. You don’t have another job yet, you don’t know when you will get one, so operate as if you will still be in this job by the time the conference comes along. If you don’t sign up and you’re still there, you’ll be disappointed. If you DO sign up and you end up in another job, it will be a hassle but you’ll be better off in the long run.

      1. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

        Is the conference registration transferable? Someone else could go in your place if so.

        1. Anon for this*

          I don’t know if it’s transferrable, but I do know that the company does not limit the number of people that can go. So anyone that wants to go can get signed up today.

    2. econobiker*

      Is the training applicable to anyone else or specifically for you? I wouldn’t sign up if it’s for yourself and it couldn’t be shifted to another coworker. It also depends if the training is mandatory for your position or for a certification required for your position.

      I once attended a technical seminar session,already paid for by my company and scheduled 3 months out, because the orginal attendee coworker was leaving that job the week after the seminar.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I would still sign up for it, because you never know if you will have a different job in 3 months.

      Is there anyone else you could transfer the training to if you decided to leave?

    4. Elsewise*

      I’d do it. If you were in the final stages of interviews with three different jobs and confident you’d be getting one of them, I wouldn’t, but it sounds like you’re at the stage of thinking about applying. I know it depends on your industry, but at least in mine, thinking about applying to actually putting in your notice is a lot more than three months for most people.

  34. multipotentialite*

    Does anyone have any success stories or advice about switching careers? My therapist is convinced that I would have to go back to school, even if the new field is related to my current one/degree(s). I don’t know what field I want to go into, but, for example, I don’t see why I’d need a completely different degree to work in a natural history museum when my BA is in Biology. I enjoy learning, but I can’t afford another graduate degree program.

    1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      I probably would not take career advice from your therapist in this case :) Their advice sounds like it’s informed by their own experience. If you wanted to pursue a career in a field with licensing requirements like therapy or law, yes, you’d have to go back to school. For the majority of fields? Probably not.

      I switched fields 3 times at the beginning of my career- two unrelated to my degree. They were similar entry-level roles within different fields so I had some work experience and transferable skills.

      It really depends what your work history is like and what you want to do. Try looking at open positions to see what companies are actually asking for.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I agree (as someone who works with counselors and therapists) that your therapist should not be giving you this type advice, unless they have some sort of knowledge about the industry, And even then they should point you in the direction of places you can find out more information, not discouraging or telling you no. A lot of times they go directly to school to working in a practice with little to no non clinincal work. They maybe worked part time retail or something in college but no “real world” jobs.

        I think the best thing to do is try to network with someone in that industry, do some research about the job you’d like and what education it requires. You’d be surprised by what just any old bachelors degree can get you.

        1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

          Networking and informational interviews are great ideas. If you need a job now, you can also just start applying! If you see a job that interests you that you think you’d be good at, don’t take yourself out of the running preemptively because you think you’re not a 100% perfect candidate. Write a strong cover letter and resume tailored to the job that highlights your transferable skills, submit your application, and let them make that call.

    2. Qwerty*

      Reach out to people in the fields that you are interested in for informational interviews. They would be better placed to tell you whether those types of roles require certain degrees or might be able to suggest bridge style roles that would be a good intermediate step in liue of another degree.

      If you don’t know anyone, look for Meetups for professionals in those fields. Worst case – try reaching out on LinkedIn to someone who works at your local Natural History Museum and ask if they’d be willing to meet for coffee or do a zoom chat. Make your message focused on learning more about the field. Avoid making it sounds like you want them to help you get a job at their museum.

      1. pally*

        Might try to find a professional organization in the field you wish to pursue. They can help with identifying what (if any) study you may need.

    3. Whale I Never*

      I’m assuming it depends on the field, but I can attest that, for your example at least, a separate degree is not necessary! I currently work in a museum and have worked in an archive, and people definitely float between related subfields frequently. My background is in history and archives, but I have worked in archives, historic houses, and science history museums as well as museums more focused on my actual educational background, and my colleagues have included people with BAs through PhDs in History, Art History, Physics, Education, and Ecology. For most roles, subject matter expertise is nice to have but less valuable than demonstrated ability in writing, object handling, public speaking, grant-writing, etc, whatever SKILLS the job requires.

      There are a few specialized roles where a particular degree is non-negotiable–and in some cases, the level of competition can turn negotiables into non-negotiables. Like, I don’t have an MLIS and I really struggled to get jobs in archives because I’m in an area where it’s a very competitive field, even though I had work experience and a certification. I couldn’t afford/didn’t want to get a second masters, which is why I moved more to the museum side of things, and it turns out I also enjoy that a lot more.

      This comment did turn out to be a little more museum-focused than you may have been looking for, lol, but hopefully it is still helpful.

    4. Rebecca*

      If you are looking for museum work, check job postings for natural history museums to see what they list for job requirements. Most do not require specialized graduate degrees unless you are doing very specific work (curating, archiving). Be prepared though- museum jobs are quite competitive, so have a backup plan in place.

      1. Donottry*

        This is what I was going to say. If you’re looking to transition into a job that already has a lot of applicants with exactly the right degrees and some experience, you may need to think about getting additional education or volunteer experience.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Please do not take career advice from your therapist. Unless she is a certified career counselor.

      1. Plate of Wings*

        Right? Maybe I don’t understand the range of therapeutic arrangements that exists, but I would be really hesitant to continue with a therapist that wasn’t “convinced” when I said additional schooling wouldn’t need to be part of my next step. Between the two of us, wouldn’t *I* be the expert on this particular subject?

        Again, maybe I don’t understand this kind of therapy, but what else would my therapist not take my word about? I would need a therapist that takes me at my word, since that’s how I communicate in therapy.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      Unless the jobs you’re looking at explicitly require a given degree, either in the job desc or via some accrediting body/regulation, I would absolutely NOT recommend going back to school for another degree. Since it sounds like you don’t know yet what you want to go for, you can just avoid the ones that would require this.

    7. Southern Violet*

      Sounds like the therapist is extrapolating from their own career – where you do need specific degrees – to your career. I am concerned that she’s not listening to you about your own experiences, though. Does she tend to dismiss you in other ways? Because you are absolutely correct. And you can prove it as you apply and then get a job in your new career. In the meantime, stop asking her advice about this since she’s clearlt out of her depth.

  35. Triple Hyphenate (Last name)*

    I asked on a previous open thread (under a different username, I forget what it was) whether it was acceptable to put my work as showrunner of an audio drama on LinkedIn and the responses were very encouraging. Similar question–a play I have written is being staged. My day job is in no way connected to theater. Should I promote it on LinkedIn?

    1. fhqwhgads*

      What do you want to get out of it?
      I don’t really think LinkedIn is the best audience for that info, but it’s not, like, bad or anything. Just not clear what the goal is.

  36. Oh No*

    I started a job mid-2024 and so far, its been awful. The new company is a start up that has grown super quickly. I came from very large, corporate environments. I knew it would a risk when I joined.

    My health has suffered incredibly since starting this job. I had already decided to start looking around for another role.

    I found out earlier this week that my current team is splitting up. Myself and a few other folks “might” be moving to a different team. Its up in the air. The company has not provided any details or timelines. We may have to re-interview for our current roles. The one thing I do know is that my manager (who I really like and respect) will no longer manage me. All of these decisions were made without my manager’s decision or knowledge.

    So, things are kind of a mess. I was planning to leave anyway, but now I am nervous about being laid off in a terrible job market.

    1. Qwerty*

      Let me guess, “hypergrowth” time?

      I find the need to re-interview weird – do you feel like the company is financially stable or that a lay off may be coming? Startups tend to overhire whenever they get a round of funding then later lay off half the company when the money runs out. (rinse and repeat for years until they IPO/get acquired or finally call it quits)

      For a startup that is growing, even at a slow rate, expect there to be a reorg every 6-12 months for hands on positions (like engineering) and about 9-12months for other departments (like sales / marketing / HR)

      Sorry this startup isn’t going well and I hope you are able to find something else soon!

      1. Oh No*

        The re-interviewing thing is strange. I dealt with it earlier in my career and they basically used it as an excuse to get rid of people they didnt like and hired folks they could get for cheaper. Some people who “kept their jobs” were offered lower rates or pay and/or demotions. I expect this to happen at my startup. There is also some icky political power tripping happening too.

        Based on what I know, they do seem to be in financial trouble. I didnt know that when I joined obviously. Its pretty well-known that they want to be acquired and are actively working to make it happen. One of their biggest funders is withdrawing support as well.

    2. Le le lemon*

      I recently joined a start up and you could easily be someone on my team (enough details match).
      I’ve always worked in corporate/private and I would say the red flags seem redder in startup. I’ve had multiple WTF/where was the thought, or oversight, moments.
      Hyper growth yet cutting workforce? The math ain’t mathing. Sounds like a big cash flow problem and you’re absolutely right to accept upcoming loss and move on.

      1. Oh No*

        Thank you. Im sorry you are going through something similar. I dont think my working style is suited for startup life. :(

        1. Le le lemon*

          Thank you. It helps that I knew it was the Titanic before I joined (have we hit the ice berg yet? I think so. Am I going to jump on a lifeboat? You bet). I’ve made a list of signs administration is impending. Org being bought would be best case scenario (although still messy).
          I’m going to learn as much as I can, do my job really well, meet people, keep applying for other jobs, and keep work into it’s little box, and doing fun/great things outside of those hours. It’s not my fault for the past recklessness and unmerited business practice.
          Cheering you on for finding ways to improve your health and balance the craziness!

    3. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      I’d start by asking for a 1on1 with the manager that you like. (Preferably off-site – ask them out for coffee?) They might be able to help you in your job search. At the very least line them up as a positive job reference.

  37. No Tribble At All*

    We survived our first working-while-parenting-snow days! (: Mini Tribble was pretty good — he’s just over a year old, so he could entertain himself with books and other toys a lot of the day. We tried to take him out in the snow, which he hated. But it still took ages to give him snacks, change him, etc, and he reeeeeally did not like when we both had meetings and left him in his room alone. At the start of the second day, as soon as I got my laptop out, he flopped across my legs and cried, which is a mood. But bless him, Mr Tribble and I both managed to work roughly a full day, since we both worked before/after Mini Tribble was awake.

    To make this a discussion, my question is: anyone else get absolutely wiped the NEXT day? I felt like the day kiddo went back to daycare, all I wanted to do was sleep.

    1. Generic Name*

      Doing double duty as employee and parent simultaneously is tough! My son is an older teenager, and I brought him to my office one day to tour a department related to his career aspirations, and I was exhausted at the end of the work day. The only thing I could think of was the dual roles (mom plus manager) was extra tiring. I actually disliked working part time because I always felt pulled in multiple directions. When you’re at work, you can focus on work. When you are home with kiddo, you can focus on kiddo. Doing both takes more than twice the effort!

    2. This Old House*

      “he’s just over a year old, so he could entertain himself with books and other toys a lot of the day.”

      I definitely did not expect the second clause to follow from the first clause here! Sounds like it went as well as it possibly could have :-) I think I would have been able to get in ~45 minutes of work during the course of a day if I was stuck home with my 1yo.

      1. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

        That is hilarious to me as I have 14 month old twins who can be left unattended for no more than a very fast bathroom break. You can count on 10-15 minute chunks of not having to intervene when they are well rested and not hungry, but Monday we took hour long turns babywrangling since of course they did not nap at the same time. Tuesday was like a vacation day when they were back to daycare.

      2. No Tribble At All*

        Oh, we know we are very lucky!! He’s very, very good at playing independently. He really wanted to toddle around but that requires more supervision so he got baby-gated in all day. There was a lot of him excitedly bringing socks and other small objects up to my chair, me patting him on the head, and him trying to grab my laptop.

      3. Freddie Mercurial*

        My 3.5 year-old is best at self entertaining, followed by the 11 year old. The 1st grader is the worst. WFH with kids at home is exhausting. Pulled in multiple directions and never fully doing any one thing. When I’m working, I’m on high alert for kid interruptions. When I’m with the kids, I feel like I should be working. I’m also having Covid homeschool flashbacks. At least we’re not dealing with Virtual School Days in my house, just regular Snow Days.

        1. No Tribble At All*

          I literally have no idea how anyone with kids got anything done during Covid. Godspeed.

    3. Scholarly Publisher*

      Being wiped the next day is completely normal. You used your reserve energy to cope with the immediate crisis; now the crisis is over but your reserves need replenishing.

  38. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

    How do you handle co-workers who make you feel dumb or incompetent? I’m a quiet office worker (usually the last person to know gossip) but I make sure that I am reliable and helpful and try to solve problems on my own before asking for help. Recently, I dealt with an issue involving a piece of mail sent incorrectly to the wrong person.

    I didn’t pass it on (someone else incorrectly did) and I got a seething email from a bully co-worker about my “mistake”. I wrote back and said that I didn’t pass it on (as I’ve worked with the sender before) and explained where to send it in the future. Even my fix and reply got put down as well.

    I love my job but my heart dies little by little daily.

    1. cmdrspacebabe*

      If someone you already know as a bully is ‘seething’ about something as minor as misdirected mail, that’s about them and their issues, not anything to do with your performance – especially if they weren’t even directing their angry email at the right person. If your management isn’t already aware of the pattern, maybe they should be. Regardless, that kind of response indicates someone whose opinion you shouldn’t put much stock in. Actually getting that reframe to sink in is easier said than done, though.

      How strong is your reaction to these kinds of incidents? If they tend to linger in your head or send you spiraling enough to ruin your day, you might benefit from something like cognitive behavioural therapy exercises. I have a lot of issues with rejection-sensitive dysphoria, and I found after a year or so of doing CBT worksheets after each spiral (introduced by a counselor I was seeing), the severity and impact went waaaay down. Snide emails or criticisms don’t hit me nearly as hard as they used to, and it makes things a lot easier. I can’t stop other people being jerks, but at least I trained myself to care less when they are!

    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You have already IDed your coworker as a bully. So you should not ever be surprised at them ranting about anything. Your default setting should be that they will be ranting with every interaction.

      That is extremely sad. They must have a very miserable existence. How pathetic it is that they feel compelled to try to put everyone else down to make themselves feel good. Can you imagine how insecure they are? That every little thing has to be blown up so that they can feel some kind of meaning? They blew up about a piece of mail. And you weren’t even involved. They just wanted to yell at you. Also, they didn’t want you to fix the problem. The point was to be mean. You competently fixing the problem makes sense for normal people, but they wanted you to be upset. That’s the whole point, so of course they put down your reply as well.

      You love your job. You know that you are reliable and helpful and a proactive problem solver. You know better than to believe anything the bully says. So don’t! After a miserable interaction with them, go chat with someone else who you get along with. That will help you reset and remind you the bully is the sad one.

      It is a very therapy thing to say, but nobody can make you feel dumb or incompetent. Treat the bully the same as someone insisting the earth is flat. Or like an unreasonable toddler throwing a tantrum.

  39. Koala Tea*

    I’m interested in suggestions for inclusive employee engagement activities.
    I am in charge of planning a quarterly event (4x year) for our approx 65 employees. Two of these events are open to family/friends. I’m looking for ideas that are inclusive, practical budget, and dont require high amounts of physical activity (so no company softball teams). Culture is working class, low income, no suits.
    Things that have worked well in the past: Bingo afternoon on site, bowling at local bar, day at the local zoo w/ family, and picnic in park w/ family.
    Thanks in advance for any input!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Have one of those sip and paint activities come onsite? It’s like basic guided acrylic painting where everyone paints the same thing as the instructor tells you what to do. 65 people is a lot for that though.

      1. Philosophia*

        I have to say that for those of us with less than zero artistic talent, that activity is painful. I had it sprung on me once, with no opportunity to back out, and was miserable. The claim by the teacher that everyone can do it is just bogus. It’s like making a tone-deaf person (who knows she’s tone-deaf) sing.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Prior workplace did a family evening at a place with mini golf. It was summer, so nice outdoors, they had plenty of nonalcoholic and alcoholic drinks out along with nibbles, and there were some other lawn games (cornhole, giant Jenga, that sort of thing) out for people to play if they didn’t feel up to mini golf.

    3. Roy G. Biv*

      I recently attended a putt putt golf night that included 80’s themes, and plenty of freebies and prizes. All attendees got a belt bag with a neon golf ball and sunglasses. There were about 12 putting greens, and every other green had prizes, where you could spin the wheel or pluck a duck to win a neon baseball hat, bubble wand, sweat band/wrist bands. The kids really enjoyed the whole event, and the 80’s swag.

    4. chocolate muffins*

      Board games? Picnic? A visit to an aquarium or museum? Amuseument parks (great for kids, maybe not so much for mobility issues though – I don’t remember them requiring that much physical exertion but I haven’t been to one in a while)? Shakespeare in the Park if that’s a thing where you are?

    5. Jshaden*

      If there is a minor league baseball team near you, that could be a fun family option. Some even have a park/picnic area suitable for this type of event where catering (burgers and hotdog level) can be provided and people can watch the game while kids play.

      A local brewery with outdoor space would also likely have cornhole and other lawn games, which would make a good adults only idea.

    6. Sara K*

      My workplace is government so not a lot of budget for employee engagement activities. In addition to the things mentioned above which my workplace has also done, we have done lunch and trivia competitions with trivia tailored to the demographic of the employees. These have been pretty successful. There are companies that will run trivia competitions for you so some expense but saves you the time of compiling the question lists. We have done them both running them ourselves and using a company.

  40. Hello*

    I’m curious- has anyone left a job because of how others were treating / for reasons that weren’t affecting you.

    I started an amazing job last year. Now that the rose colored glasses are off I’m seeing things I don’t agree with. I don’t know management’s objective and again their decisions don’t affect me but I’m just questioning/ disgusted by certain things. For example a newish manager decided to hire a manager to “mentor” someone who has been with the company for30 years since formed. Said person is the go to guy on literally everything and is now being told they need to train their new boss. This is just one example.

    1. WestsideStory*

      Yes. I was less than a year in a new position when there was an egregious racist incident (following many bias actions and just plain bullying I observed over several months targeting junior staff.) HR tried to sweep it under the rug, and it was clear management didn’t care. I left.
      Values count for something, I think.

  41. I love ice cream*

    How does everyone bring things to work? I work in an office… every day I have my pocket book with my wallet and medication, a bag for lunch, my laptop, and a bag with files that use for work, school (getting my masters) & volunteering. At this point I feel like a rolling suitcase would be easier, but I’m not that “high up” that it would probably look silly.

      1. No name today*

        That’s why I use a backpack. But only works if I’m traveling by car. If I’m commuting by mass transit, I don’t take the laptop—it stays at home and I use the office’s set up.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Look up the old post “how to cope when you don’t have an assigned work space” from May 11, 2023. There are some good suggestions for how to pack many things for a work day in the comments. I’ll link in a reply.

      Personally, I have a laptop backpack that holds my laptop, my lunch bag, a few files (generally one folder or one notebook). My wallet fits in my pants pocket, but if it didn’t I would be able to put that in my backpack as well.

      2. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

        People at my job routinely have 2-3 tote bags for different segments of their job. To the point where it’s a joke that you can tell someone works for our department when we have meetings in other areas of campus because of the tote bags. It’s not infrequently that I have to take two trips to drag everything in from my car (we also have a lot of those folding wagons around because so many people have large amounts of items to leave the office with for events).

    3. Generic Name*

      I use a Patagonia “black hole” backpack to carry laptop, coffee mug, and lunch. I don’t have any paper files, thankfully. This backpack might be too casual in a formal industry or a formal part of the country, but I work in construction/engineering in the mountain west, so pretty much everyone carries a backpack.

    4. Reba*

      A lot of people in the building where I work use rolling briefcase kinda bags, or rolling backpacks, or like the rolling luggage that is shorter, like an “underseat” bag. I don’t think it’s a status thing! Public transit use is common here, so good bags you can walk with are key. I do think a suitcase-suitcase rolling up to the office would be odd, but somehow when the luggage is more horizontal it just reads like a business bag.

      I just use a backpack (or a bike bag when I bike). I don’t usually carry as much as you, though!

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      a super nice Backpack or messenger bag. I have a couple of bags from Lovevook. You can find them on Amazon.

      But I think this depends on your job. It might look odd to have a backpack. I work at a university and everyone, even directors and department chairs, uses a backpack messenger bag.

    6. Medium Sized Manager*

      I’m team backpack! I haaate having multiple bags or having to physically carry anything, so it makes it easier. I also went back to school while working, which people knew about, so I never got weird looks for it.

      I also have a little “clutch” to hold my office essentials (pen, headphones, badge, transit card) so I don’t have to dig around before getting to my desk. I use a green one currently but the company bought us all black branded ones that will probably look nicer.

    7. Jaded Millenial*

      I have a 45 liter tote bag with shoulder strap from REI. I prefer having my hands free when I’m going from car to office, and it allows me to fit in everything and close with the drawstring. It’s not as cute as I’d prefer, but I already owned it when I started looking around for something large enough to fit my insulated lunch bag into along with everything else.

    8. Snarky McSnarkerson*

      What you’re looking for (instead of a rolling suitcase) is called a trial bag. They generally have stiffer sides and wheels and don’t look silly at all! My daughter gifted one to me when I was in school and working and it’s a dream! I do drop the purse though and just put what I’ll need in the trial bag. This is especially helpful when your workplace is in the middle of something called “cardiac hill.” LOL

    9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I have my good old Jansport backpack – is it professional, not necessarily, but I sometimes walk to work and even if I don’t its not a short haul from the parking lot and I have a lot to carry.

      I did trade out my purse for a smaller softside bag that tucks into the backpack more easily but can still function as a purse for running out to coffee or lunch.

      1. This Old House*

        I used to use my Jansport, but I work on a college campus and once had a fellow employee, older than me, who I didn’t know, hold a door for me because “you kids need to get to class on time.” I have since transitioned to carrying too many tote bags. Also unprofessional, maybe more grownup?

        1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          I don’t know how grownup it is to stop doing something that works for you because of one offhand comment. That actually seems like something someone young and insecure does.

          I used to work in a huge east coast city. Nearly everyone carried backpacks, even C suite. Saw many people in expensive wool coats hanging at trendy expensive bars with a backpack slung over one shoulder.

    10. AcadLibrarian*

      Get a roller backpack, like a JanSport. It doesn’t look as formal and most people just assume you have back or shoulder problems. They come in solid colors and patterns.

    11. Girasol*

      Me too on day pack. They make ones specifically for office workers. Those have an internal padded sleeve for a laptop, so they should make you look reasonably professional and not like a school kid or a trekker.

    12. goddessoftransitory*

      Giant tote that’s for a laptop but I use as a purse, since the slots keep whatever book I’m reading flat and crease free. I often am also toting an insulated lunch bag, my paper, and umbrella and a big bag of plastic stuff to sort for recycling (my work uses an intensive recycler that does all sorts of plastics and it’s okay for any of us to bring our stuff in.)

    13. ASD always*

      I use a Lekesky-brand backpack that has a square-opening inner section with a laptop pocket. It looks more “officey” than the usual more sporty or luggagey backpacks, though clearly female-coded. I commute by bus so my main priority is only having one thing to carry and that thing being versatile with how it can be comfortably held (i.e. on my lap, by my feet, in-hand, or hands-free depending on how busy the bus is and whether or not I have a seat or a good place to stand).

      I don’t think one of those too-small-to-be-travel-luggage rolling suitcases needs a certain level of seniority, though. I tend to associate them with professions that wear suits because I only see people use them on trains going to London, but that’s probably a London-commuter-town thing rather than a wider norm.

  42. Times New Sicilian*

    I posted in an open thread a few weeks ago asking for advice about creating shared documents with a coworker whose formatting/writing style was difficult for me to read. Happy to report back that we’ve since had our big meeting about formatting and it went very well! The resources that people suggested were great, and I was able to phrase suggestions in a more productive, less picky-sounding way than I would have managed on my own. My coworker ended up being really happy to work together on a brand-new template and agreed that many of the proposed changes were helpful to her as well.

  43. Yes And*

    I walked in on a member of my team looking somewhat shellshocked. She told me she had been asked to post a job for the title “First Hand” (a common enough job title in our industry). Being new to our industry, and not knowing where to post such jobs, she googled “First Hand job postings.” She had just closed out of the resulting search when I walked in.

    No question. I just thought you might all be as amused by this as I was.

    1. StressedButOkay*

      I’m shrieking, OMG.

      I’m also remembering the time my dad’s coworker typed in whitehouse.COM instead of whitehouse.GOV (iykyk) right as the boss came into the office. The coworker shrieked “Unplug it, unplug it!” as they threw themselves bodily on the monitor.

      The boss just quietly turned around and left XD

    2. Discombobulated and Tired*

      Oh my. I’m lol’ing. I’m looking forward to a new AAM post where they ask if they’re going to get fired because a co-worker walked in on them accidentally searching “First Hand job postings”

      1. Yes And*

        My coworker was wondering if she should preemptively notify IT. I don’t think they’re keeping that close tabs on us here, but in some places, it wouldn’t be a bad idea.

        1. Le le lemon*

          yes, let them know. Context & admitting upfront now will go down far better than what will seem like backpedalling later. at the least, IT will get a laugh out of it.

        2. Pay no attention...*

          it might be a good idea to double check that the site didn’t download some malware to her computer. Plus, if it’s a common job title in your industry, they might want to block problematic websites so it doesn’t keep happening.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Oh dear, sweet summer child. :D

      That search would definitely turn up some surprising results and probably not ones you actually want to hire for.

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      Over 20 years ago and pre-IMDB, a coworker had a question about the movie Jungle Fever. She also closed out pretty quickly once results started showing up.

    5. Rocky*

      OMG, thank you for the giggle!

      But now I have to know what that phrase means in your industry! Please enlighten!

    6. Buni*

      My friend, in charge of a class of 8-9yr olds, was teaching about community and wanted to show some pictures of group efforts, teamwork etc. etc. On the big class screen she googled ‘Coming Together’….

      Personally, in a Biology 1-1 lesson with a 16yr old boy, I meant to say “Some of the more exotic organisms”. I got ‘organisms’ right. I did not say ‘exotic’….

    7. Riley*

      Oh, I did something like this googling a company name. The name is a well known actors last name and is a word that has a common NSFW usage, but somehow I thought putting “Inc.” after it would make it ok, or whatever. There was one split second before I hit enter where I thought, “maybe this is the wrong way to search,” and then I hit enter anyway. It was bad. I screamed out loud, and the entire room turned to look at me and my search results popping up on the screen.

      So what’s a First Hand, anyway?

    8. Brevity*

      ,,,, and then there was the time I was online shopping during my lunch hour, looking for a way to keep my hands extra warm on freezing cold days waiting for the train in my city. I wanted to get what’s called a muff, basically a big roll of fur you stick your hands into and hold in front of you. I’d never seen one in a regular store, so I figured I’d find it online. I knew I wanted a black one, because dirt.

      Reader, I googled “black muff”.

      From my work computer.

      You know, as far as I’m concerned, consenting adults, whatever; but those were NOT the results I was looking for.

    9. Fluff*

      yup. Me and 2 co workers were looking for a specific news update. Hence, a harmless check for yahoo news. I typed yahooo.com.

      We all were frozen in surprise staring at the result.

      Then over our heads, big boss casually commented, “It’s always the last o that gets you,” and strolled out.

  44. Startup Advisor?*

    I’ve started doing some technical advising for startup founders – ideas on how to leverage this on my resume / leverage it into job opportunities? I’m doing this for free currently for a couple people in my network – my goal is just to help them out and put some of the lessons I learned at some disaster startups to good use. None of these are going to be unicorns or get-rich-quick startups, it’s more good people who want to run a small company well and make a modest income.

    1. How do I put this on my resume? Only of the three companies even has a name – the other two are just individuals finding their way (pretty common in tech)

    2. How do I find more people who would find this useful? I’m taking a break between jobs for a couple months so I’m trying to be as useful as possible now since my bandwidth will go down to nothing after I get my next job.

    3. Are there any resources or online classes that could make me better at this? Right now I’m just using my personal experience. I found BoardLearn, but it is more focused on governance for non-profits. Open to self improvement

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      1) I would position it as a consultancy, independent of the companies. You don’t need to name them (since they don’t have names!), but they should be able to speak to your work like any other kind of reference.

      2) This feels like a networking thing, e.g. making a post about how you work with burgeoning start-ups and if you know anyone looking to get started, send them your way. I assume you have lots of LinkedIn contacts from start ups who may know people or who may be starting something new themselves.

      3) No idea.

  45. kiramman*

    I was just laid off for the first time and I’m absolutely terrified. Does anyone have any short-term advice? I filed for unemployment, but otherwise, I’m still reeling. I feel really ashamed even though I know it happens literally all the time to just about anyone. Help.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Make yourself a schedule. Get up and get dressed and brush your teeth every morning. It really helps mentally.

      Don’t spend all your time job hunting, make regular downtime and time for things that bring you joy.

      Don’t be afraid to tell people you got laid off, word of mouth is how a lot of people find jobs, you want to tell people so you can leverage whatever connections they have (my sister’s hairdresser’s cousin is the hiring manager for role… level of connection!). Reach out to your former coworkers and managers too, no shame in lay offs, and they might be able to help or at least be a reference.

      Keep up with grooming (shower regularly, exercise, go for a walk outside, etc) it helps mentally but also with confidence when interviewing.

      Be honest with yourself about your financials. How long can you make it without a job, do you need to get worst case scenarios in place (moving in with family/friends, taking low level job as at least some income, selling off some belongings etc). Once you’ve done that, don’t dwell let yourself dwell on it, you have a plan in place, so worrying more wont do anything. Remind yourself of that.

      You will make it through this!

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      In addition to the above, if you can afford to just give yourself a week to not think about your next role, do that. Take showers, wear comfy clothes, eat food you like, watch your favourite shows, go for walks, etc. Give yourself a bit of time to process before you dive into the job search.

    3. Cyndi*

      If you get a part time job as a stopgap, be really attentive to whether it impacts your unemployment benefits! In my last period of unemployment I was working 10-20 hours a week and getting partial benefits and I had to do some math up front to determine that that was the sweet spot–working under 10 hours a week meant I didn’t have enough combined income to pay my bills, going over 20 would have disqualified me from benefits. Your state probably has a formula for this that you can look up.

    4. Friday Person*

      Ugh, I’m sorry, it truly sucks, but you will get through it!

      It’s totally fine to grieve or be upset. Try to really internalize the idea that it isn’t a meaningful judgment into your worth as an employee for that company, let alone your worth as a worker or as a person overall.

      Reach out to your network in whatever ways make sense and let people know you’re job hunting. Now is a great time to get coffee and catch up with a bunch of people, both for the job leads and the emotional support.

      If you’re in a financial place to do so, take some time to use this as an opportunity to reset: really think about what you want out of your next job, also take some time to live life in the way you can’t when you’re on the hook to an employer.

      When you’re negotiating for your next role, don’t lowball yourself just because you’re so glad to be employed again.

    5. Lady Lessa*

      Please give yourself a chance to mourn as well. It is hard, the first time. (and hopefully, the only time.)

    6. Helewise*

      I found it really helpful to volunteer a few hours a week. It let me get out, be with people, and feel useful in a way that I wasn’t feeling at that point. For me it encouraged a much healthier headspace, which was also more productive when it came to looking for work.

    7. ronda*

      my first layoff.. we knew they were coming, but when I got the call ……. this feeling just ran through me.
      having feelings is something people do.
      I was very nervous for sometime after cause no more structure to my days… I didnt really need to be anywhere. I got used to it eventually.

      Work on your resume.
      Tell people you were laid off. If there is any help they can give you in job searching ask them for it.
      work on how to answer the question about why you left your last job. practice it so you can talk about it calmly when asked in interview. (everybody seems to ask this)

      The last time I was on unemployment, they made me attend some classes about job searching.

      Check if there are any job searching groups or networking or professional groups in your area that may be helpful for you job search.

      Volunteer work if you would like to have some regularly scheduled work while you job search.

      Financial: do know that if you have a 401k and you decide you need to take money out of it to pay for your life, you have to pay taxes on that money and a penalty for early withdrawal. So it is best to have them withhold and send money to the government from your withdrawal. It is best to use other sources of money if possible to avoid the extra taxes, but it is possible if needed.
      Insurance: for your medical insurance you will be offered COBRA to stay on your employers insurance for 18months but you have to pay all the premium(I think you have 90 days to decide, they will send you a letter). You can also switch to obomacare and get a subsidy if your income is in the correct range. I switched to Obamacare as it was cheaper for medical. but did COBRA for dental as I had some major dental work going on. you are able to enroll in obomacare when you lose your employer plan.

    8. Girasol*

      It’s nothing to be ashamed about. I was laid off on the same day that my company laid off their most celebrated lab researcher, the Senior Fellow of just nine people awarded a corporate fellowship, who was and is a rather famous scientist. It helped me to know that brilliant people can be laid off. Smile: you might be one.

    9. Beach Read*

      I was in a financial industry notorious for layoffs every couple of years. Learned a lot during these times.
      If you are able to do so, consider job hunting a few times a week outside of your home. I scheduled myself several days of the week to job hunt from our local library instead of from home. I arrived at time of opening as if I was expected to be there. (Also to nab my fave desk lol) Not only did it give me needed structure and routine, but it also got me out and about and seeing familiar faces every day. Sitting at the desk area and using the clunky old computer gave me a sense of being ‘at work’. I was able to get a lot of work done without the distractions at home.
      I got to a point where I was able to enjoy the time away from work, although I was somewhat disappointed in myself that I didn’t use some time to enrich my life by learning knitting or training for a 5K or volunteering at a hospital.
      Most importantly, I didn’t burn myself out job searching 8 hours a day every day. I was less stressed, and I believe that helped me have better, more confident interviews.
      Best of luck to you going forward.

  46. Adoption Gift Ideas for Coworker*

    If anyone has experience adopting (esp a non-newborn), I’d love to get ideas for a nice celebratory gift for a coworker. My coworker and his husband recently adopted a young son who they’ve been fostering for a few years. The coworker and I aren’t super close, we don’t hang outside of work, or even work on the same team; but we work in the same building and chat frequently getting coffee and have spoken a lot about his experience as a foster parent, including a former foster child they’d raised from birth and hoped to adopt, but was sent to live with a relative of the parent along with the very long court process to finalize this adoption.

    It’s been a long process and I’m so excited for them. I want to get them something to congratulate their new family unit, but am not sure what. Their son is 4 or 5, so you can’t buy typical baby stuff. And I don’t know their home style or what they already have, so I don’t want to try to buy something custom. But a gift card feels too impersonal. And do I get something for their son or for them as a family?
    If you’ve adopted or know someone who has, I’d love ideas for the kind of gift that would be appreciated.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I don’t have first hand experience with this but I think it should be for the family as a whole. I know you said gifts card is not personal but I think if you put thought into it, it can be really wonderful gift. A gift card to a local family friendly place is good as long as you tailor it for the family. If the kids are younger I’m thinking something like a children’s museum, or children’s theater. If the child is a little older (like around 10 or more) someplace like a theme park/ indoor trampoline park or skating rink. Or something to the local movie theater or zoo. Gift cards don’t have to impersonal if you put thought into it.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Seconding museum/zoo/aquarium memberships! They make great gifts. A 4 year old doesn’t need a lot of toys and you don’t know what toys they already have so that’s alittle more tricky.

      Another idea would be a gift certificate to shutterfly or similar, for photo printing. I know for most fosters you can’t share pics on social media etc. So being formally adopted means lots of photo sharing suddenly.

      1. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

        I vote for the experience membership! Or if you live someplace where it would be more of an overnight trip to go someplace, a gift certificate for a hotel along with tickets (I’m thinking about where I live – the closest city with a zoo or real children’s museum type experience is 90 minutes and the other two are 3 hours each way). This would be a great gift and something the kiddo will be old enough to (semi) remember if they go overnight for a weekend.

    3. A Teacher*

      Yes! I am your coworker (jus kidding lol). I adopted my daughter at 7 from foster care. It is hard because a lot of people don’t recognize it the same way as the birth of a child or even adoption of a baby. Can you think of experiences in your area that might be fun for them as a family? Giftcards for food or to regular stores like Target–it lets the little one pick something out too. Have they started a college fund? If so, maybe contribute a small amount to that. Please avoid things like “adoption is love” or signs like that unless you know it is something they would value. My kid wanted to be adopted but she also essentially lost the ability to ever be reunified with her family–so while adoption is essential and a loving choice, it creates one family while disrupting another.

      Thank you for thinking of your coworker! I wish more of my colleagues would do the same for adoptive parents vs. natural birth.

    4. MissBliss*

      Thirding an experience gift, and on a similar vein to DisneyChannelThis’s suggestion, maybe a Polaroid camera and some film?

    5. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Adoptee here who also worked placing children with adopting families for a decade – honestly anything that acknowledges the milestone would likely be appreciated, as many people don’t treat adoption with the same significance as a birth (or just do nothing because they don’t know what to do). But unless you know the kid and are certain it would be welcomed, I’d focus on a gift for the parent(s)/family rather than for the kid directly. Adoption is a super emotional process and even if it’s a really wonderful thing, often comes with grief for the family the adoptee lost – which can show up even in very small children. (I’ve personally experienced this even though I was too young to have concrete memories of my birth family.) So a message of “yay for your adoption!” along with a gift for the kid can feel like celebrating something that’s both very happy and very sad, and may not be welcome if you can’t get that nuance right for the child and where they’re at.

      1. A Teacher*

        I wish I could like this–adoptive mom and the conflicting feelings thing for those in the process if a very real piece of adoption that people don’t understand.

        Experience gifts, gift card, or possible a contribution to like a college fund (small of course) would be better routes. We appreciated the people that gave us things like dinner giftcards and places to visit, it let us do fun things but was low pressure on my daughter and I.

    6. Adoption Gift Ideas for Coworker*

      Loving these recommendations about experiences & memberships! These are the kinds of things I always gift my nephews, so I can’t believe I didn’t think of it myself. I also love the idea of a shutterfly gift card as we have talked about how they couldn’t post pics on social while fostering.

      I also really appreciate those who’ve shared their experiences in and around the foster and adoption process to help avoid accidentally thoughtless or hurtful gifts. Very valid points and I value the perspectives. Thank you all so much!

  47. tr-6 woundwort*

    Hi all, I was wondering if you could offer me some words of advice/reassurance on navigating a difficult manager change.

    I am a shy, technical individual contributor. About five years ago, I was headhunted out of a very dysfunctional org to my current company. My boss at this company was absolutely the best manager I’ve ever had – praises in public, raises issues privately, advocates for me and encourages me to get out of my comfort zone and grow in my career. I wanted to stay with this boss and grow professionally with them. The work is often hard and prone to fires due to upstream organizational decisions, but I was content with it because I knew I was well supported.

    However late last year, our team reshuffled our functions to consolidate certain subject areas. I ended up moved out from under my old boss, to a new boss with triple the direct reports. I was told this would be beneficial as new boss has technical resources that can help resolve some process issues I’ve been experiencing in my function. My new boss is extremely hands off and in the middle of an all-consuming project, and told me to think of them more as a fellow coworker than a manager. They are in a different time zone from me, but block off a significant portion of their overlap hours with me to spend time with their family, and no-show 80% of meetings, including my first 1:1 with them.

    These are all concerns to me, but I know I have to keep an open mind as they are also adjusting to having me as a report. However… my transition was horrible and I have been pretty miserable ever since. My old boss wanted to transition more gradually, but apparently our grandboss pushed for it to be done immediately. As a result, despite reassurances that they would stay the same, my responsibilities have increased significantly and my stress has increased catastrophically. An example – I have 20+ stakeholders in my function, and deal with them regularly, but my old boss was in charge of setting overall strategy and consulting with the very high level stakeholders, which is standard for my position. During the one transition meeting we had, I came away with the expectation my new boss would also handle this. Then immediately, they no-showed on an important call and left me alone with two vice presidents. We were in the middle of a reporting cycle where I was already 130% over capacity due to ongoing technical problems. I realized I had no support in this area going forward. I left our office holiday party early and pulled two consecutive all-nighters to finish both my work and the work that would have traditionally gone to my boss.

    Since then, I’ve continued to be outwardly professional and friendly, but have been running on a mixture of adrenaline and despair for two months. I basically act as if I have no boss at all. I could theoretically leverage this to get promoted, but I’m just burnt out. I’ve had hands off managers and have been dropped into the fire plenty of times, but this feels much worse to me due to the circumstances. Plus, I still see my old boss on team calls, talking effusively about how well their team is doing, and it’s like salt in the wound. My plan for now is to ride this out for 6 months, then reevaluate and try and float the possibility of a lateral transfer to my old boss’s function. But in the meantime, does anyone have any advice for how to weather this storm?

    1. Alice*

      Have you talked to your old boss? Not in a “I want to get around my current boss” way but in a “You’re a valuable mentor, what’s your advice about how I should handle the situation” way?

      1. tr-6 woundwort*

        I have spoken to them a couple of times – the main thing I’ve raised with them was the issues surrounding the transition. They were extremely apologetic about the way it went, admitting it was handled poorly and expressing some frustration with senior leadership that initiated the move. They’ve also given me some advice on working with executives in the above situation and have made it clear that they will still be available to me. I plan to reach out again in the future, but I want to be careful to not come off as badmouthing my current boss too much (they are at the same level in our team).

    2. Reba*

      Ugh, how terrrible and no wonder you are stressed!

      I suggest that you talk with your old boss and ask for their discreet advice on first raising the issues once more with new boss (not expecting a change) and then to the grand boss. Do keep your old boss aware that you’d like to go back to them, they can be an ally for you as they already know your work is good.

      Meanwhile, let balls drop. Work at 100%, not 130%. Don’t do your boss’s work, and leave an email trail of these workload issues. “Based on the time we have left before the deadline, I can do X and Y but not Z. Let me know if you want me to change priorities.”

      1. tr-6 woundwort*

        Hey, thank you for your advice – I definitely need to pull back and be explicit in communicating what my bandwidth and priorities are. As it stands, I can’t really push back on doing my boss’ work per say – my grandboss has visibility into our work and can see that I am taking on these responsibilities, and they are essential to our function’s performance. Instead I’m trying to delegate out my lower-level tasks to other coworkers and asking for help when needed. I suspect that grandboss approves of me stepping in here – they have a bit of a sink-or-swim management style at times and I suspect they do want to push me to take on a manager role based on the latest org chart I’ve seen.

        I’ll definitely keep my old boss in the loop – I’ve already informed them about the issues about the transition and they were extremely concerned and apologetic. I’m holding off on sharing additional concerns with them for a little bit – my new boss’ project will be ending soon and allegedly they will be able to give me more support. I’m skeptical, but would like to see what this support will entail before I meet again with them.

  48. NopeNopeNope*

    Updating on the employee with no accountability situation…

    I talked to her boss, who was highly apologetic. And said she would talk to her.

    The next day, after that conversation, but apparently before they met, the problematic employee asked my direct report to debrief an event that I run with her involvement and mostly to benefit her unit. They already had debriefed before she went on vacation, leaving numerous documents locked and not providing us with materials or budget information pertaining to it as we had to do end-of reporting. My direct report, who’s very stressed out by this person, basically replied that they had debriefed and she has since debriefed with me, and we’d get back to her on next steps soon. Well, the problematic person then wrote a very aggressive email about how we (meaning me and my direct report) couldn’t debrief HER event. That was followed shortly afterward by an apology from her supervisor that we received that.

    Shortly thereafter, the problematic person’s girlfriend (who also works with us) got fired and the problematic person responded poorly. HR ended up counseling her that she is on thin ice and needs to curb numerous behaviors and also counseling her about maintaining inappropriate relationships with other executives.

    She appeared in my office yesterday with all materials, sent me an email with all outstanding deliverables, and appears to be on her best behavior now.

    So, that changed quickly.

      1. NopeNopeNope*

        I asked for advice on approaching her boss, since she was being, variously, obstructive, territorial, and gatekeepy. Culminating to a degree in her wrapping up a poorly-run event that she wasn’t providing appropriate visibility into by locking all the shared documents and becoming non-responsive for 3 weeks. But she also was BFFs with another executive, who was coming into my office and trying to intervene, even though the issues involved didn’t have anything to do with her. She’s been with the company for 8 years and has been moved and won’t be interacted with by like half the company. But she still works for us.

  49. HailRobonia*

    My New Years Work Resolutions:

    1: Do not leave a cup of coffee or tea on my desk overnight.
    2: Do not forget to add attachments to emails.
    3: Do not but into work conversations that don’t involve me.
    4: Don’t let my email get “past the fold.”
    5: Update my resume (maybe this should be first?)

    1. Anonymous Cat*

      Also, always always click send on emails!!!

      (And if your emails “never arrive” check your drafts folder. So I hear…..)

  50. Very anon today*

    I’m out on FMLA/short term disability right now. My HR rep opened an application with our long term disability insurance provider on my behalf. At first I didn’t want it, but the more I think about it, the better the option seems. I’d originally planned to work a couple more years (I am close to full retirement age according to Social Security), but my health is not great and it would be really helpful not to have to worry about work while I go through the treatment process.

    But taking LTD will mean leaving my job and having to sort through health insurance, Medicare, etc. on my own. (I’m aware that my local social services dept has someone on staff who can help me navigate the options, but it’s still a daunting prospect.)

    Has anyone here used LTD and then returned to work for the same company? Or, taken early retirement instead of returning to work? What was your experience like?

    Thanks for any insight you can give me!

    1. CheerfulGinger*

      I had a coworker go on LTD while undergoing cancer treatments. However, the particular LTD insurance that my company had allowed recipients to still work up to 8 hours a week. So, my coworker kept checking emails and chiming in on projects when they were able. Once treatment was completed, they came back to work full time.

    2. TemporaryOrPermanent*

      Every LTD policy I’ve had was meant to be for permanent inability to work and you did not qualify/were expected to use STD if you would be able to work again. They require medical documentation supporting this. Obviously, your policy may be different.

    3. TX_Trucker*

      Disability policies vary greatly. At my company STD lasts a max of 6 months, and then employees can get another 6 months of LTD. After 52 weeks if an employee is not able to return to their original job, employment is terminated. It is quite common for folks with “temporary” disabilities like cancer treatment to return to work even after bring on LTD. Folks whit chronic medical conditions typically collect disability payments until they reach the 1 year mark and then they either quit, retire, or get fired.

    4. Very Anon*

      Thank you all, it’s helpful to know that LTD policies differ and what my company offers may not be standard.

  51. Writer Seeks $$$*

    I have a job offer! very exciting. But it’s going to mean a lot of changes for my family, and I’m having a hard time making a decision.

    Pros:
    -much better pay (like more than 2x what’m making now, plus bonuses)
    – health insurance premiums paid for by employer
    – work stays at work (strict separation)
    – get the job title and experience ive been looking for
    – work with high-quality colleagues

    Cons:
    – long commute
    – 100% in-person for first six mos (after that hybrid, 2 days in office)
    – full-time versus current part-time, very flexible
    – limited PTO and a lot of restrictions (no option for unpaid time off)

    We will need to do things like lease a second car, get additional childcare, and my partner will need to act as the primary contact for schools, etc. I have done that (gladly) since our first kid was born but this opportunity fell into my lap and I feel so conflicted. Any advice??

    1. StressedButOkay*

      Oh man – that is so tough. The one thing I would do (if you already haven’t) is price out that second car lease, extra childcare, gas, etc. against the increase in pay. I’d also look at how seriously the impact of limited PTO and the long commute would be against your personal and family life – the pros might outweigh all of that but it might not!

      For me, more money is great but I’m never working in an office again, especially with a long commute. We’re down to one paid off car and it’s lovely.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Seconding all of this. Twice the pay is great, but if your car lease, childcare, etc. are going to eat that all up, it may not be worth it.

        That said, I’d see if there’s room to negotiate on the 100% in person bit. I assume they think it’s necessary because training/orientation/whatever, but if everyone else gets to WFH part-time then I question the value of you being there when they’re at home.

        1. Writer Seeks $$$*

          Yeah, I explained my constraints – specifically I said that one particular day I would not be able to come in person but could work from home. Their accommodation is for me to come into the office before 6 am (meaning I leave my house at 4:30 or 5 am) and then leave work two hours early. They really don’t seem flexible about time and location at all and I think I’d just have to accept that.

      2. Double A*

        This is very good advice. Definitely price things out.

        But also, don’t underestimate the power of being able to sock away extra money at this point in your life. Double pay for even just a few years can make a huge difference to your savings and retirement, and being able to top up retirement now vs. later is HUGE. Six months of a long commute isn’t that bad, with that going down to 3 times per week. I work from home but I’d kinda love to get out to an office a few times a week, even if it was a longer commute.

        Honestly, I feel like the pros seriously outweigh the cons — good pay, good work — and it doesn’t have to be for the rest of your life but it will open some serious doors for you and set up your family financially.

        1. Wilbur*

          I agree with you on the pay and the health premiums are really great but it’s double pay at full time vs part time. The part about retirement benefits is especially good.

          My question is: how does this job fit in your life in 5 years compared to the current part time job? In 5 years, you might have more PTO at the full time job. If you switch to a full time job in a few years, you’re going to be at a lower PTO limit for that much longer. Does the partner have the flexibility to handle being the prime contact?

          How does switching to a full time job now look for your retirement prospects?

          1. WellRed*

            If it’s double pay at full time vs part time, then OP needs to factor that in as to me, it’s not really double in that case.

            1. Writer Seeks $$$*

              This is such a good point. I’ve been working as an IC for the past few years and basically if I were to work full-time in my current IC role, it would be a bit over half this new proposed salary. However, as a parent of young children, in a chapter of life when unexpected things happen all the time, I often take unpaid time off to take care of a sick child, not working full-time has been great

        2. Writer Seeks $$$*

          Thanks for asking good questions. Yes, I have also been approaching it as “the first six months will suck and then it will get better,” but I don’t know that for sure. My husband described this period as “hazing” and that their policies sound like they treat their employees like children. He’s not wrong…
          As for retirement: The employer contributes to the account (the employee does not). I think the full benefit comes about after six years
          but I’m a bit confused about it.

    2. Great Tim Horton's ghost!*

      While I agree that price and cost comparison is important, let’s also consider future items:
      – What are the retirement and investment options, and employer match?
      – Will net income (after childcare and leases) allow you to do more personal investments, pay off debts or more?
      – Does it really have to be a positive cash flow to consider it?

      And there’s the non-cash benefits of ‘the job title and experience ive been looking for’ and ‘working with high-quality colleagues’ that don’t happen near enough.

      Yes, you have kids but you also have to have a life and prepare for a future life when the kids are self-sufficient. Can this job prepare you for their self-sufficient years when you need something else to keep you on your toes.

      Honestly take it even if the net income is slightly negative (how much is up to your family). It’s automatic that parents have to ‘see how the numbers work out’ when it’s not always about the numbers. Your kids don’t have to go to college on your dime. Invest in yourself first since you’ve gladly done so for your partner.

    4. Camelid coordinator*

      Career-wise this sounds great, but is your partner on board with a change of this magnitude? Does the long commute mean they have to handle kid pick-up and dinner prep every weeknight for six months and whenever you are in the office thereafter? You’ll probably help less around the house at least at the beginning because you’ll be so tired from the schedule change and increased workload.

      My advice is to have that conversation and plan for how you can keep your household going without everything suddenly falling on to your partner.

    5. WestsideStory*

      Please consider this an opportunity. One suggestion I have – let your partner take on all the child-related functions you do now – including searching out childcare options.
      A professional media field couple I know literally “took turns” being the at home/on call parent whenever the better opportunity surfaced. They did this till the kids hit college. It worked out great, one benefit being the children didn’t inherit the idea of rigid roles in family life.

    7. Helewise*

      I did something similar to this and am in year three. It’s been both really hard and really good. I miss the time with my kids and feel really stretched all the time. At the same time, the extra money for college has been a big (BIG) deal for us, the kids really don’t need me there so much, my husband has taken on a lot more which has been good for us, and this has been a tremendous step forward for my career. I would do it again, but it hasn’t been easy.

      One thing to keep in mind is that no decision is forever – if this doesn’t work well for you, you can always switch it up again.

      1. Writer Seeks $$$*

        Thanks, I really appreciate hearing your experience. How old were your kids when you started? My youngest is only two so the decision feels especially fraught. I wonder if I could join the company in a few years when all my kids are in school for a full day.

    8. LBD*

      While being more available when your kids are young is a great benefit, will being further ahead financially and career-wise when they are pre-teens and teens allow you more availability at that time? Older kids don’t need as much hands on care, but they may have activities and events that have more rigid schedules, and putting in the commute time etc may pay off in the future with more flexibility on your end.
      Example: family holidays can be taken almost any time with small children, as long as your work schedule can accomodate it. Older kids are restricted to times when they are out of school, and their extra-curricular activities aren’t in session.
      Good luck with your decision!

    9. TX_Trucker*

      How much do you like driving and what is the commute like? From my user name, you can probably guess I do lots of driving. For me, a long commute on country roads with low traffic is much better than a shorter commute in intense city traffic.

    10. Jinni*

      Please consider the tax implications as well. Use one of those online calculators to calculate: local, city, state, federal tax and what the net may be. I’ve lived in two states where there’s a tax for where you live and a separate tax for where you work and that’s before state and federal. If you’re in a HCOL of living area affected by the tax changes under the first Trump administration, there may be limitations on deductions so those taxes could add up if you have other large deductions.

      The bottom line is I’m chiming in late to say, please make sure that net calculation adds up to enough extra $$ to make up for the inconveniences including another car, extra childcare, gas/commuting costs, work-appropriate clothing for in-office days, and extra services you made need to substitute for labor you did at no $ cost.

  52. Nusuth*

    Celebrate a bright spot with me – my annoying, but not horrible, coworker’s last day is today! I think I’ve written one or two comments on open threads about him and could’ve written many more …. He is a fine guy, but very much not a personality match and, my guess, insecure in a way that made him kind of an annoying coworker – constantly trying to subtly catch me out not knowing something, anxious about things that didn’t matter and unwilling to believe me they didn’t matter, bad listener, definitely used AI in his writing. Phew. One last meeting to discuss handover and he’s gone. The transition picking up his work will be annoying g but we’re already interviewing replacements.

    1. KitKat*

      I have a whole long list of people who I would have a little private celebration on their last day. Lucky you!

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        To quote an old Charlie Chan movie: “Even a gravedigger has clients for which he performs his task with pleasure.”

  53. Name name name*

    Looking for advice handling coworkers who keep forgetting things.

    One is my boss. He forgets conversations and conclusions reached in them constantly, sometimes during the same meeting. You’ll confirm something minutes later in an email, he’ll agree, then immediately tell someone the opposite. I think he’s totally overwhelmed but it’s functionally challenging and I’m a little worried about him. We’ve worked together for years and it’s worse but so is his overwhelm.

    One project manager I supervise is fine some days and both forgetful and confusing other days, mixing up project names or other major things, jumping from topic to topic in odd ways. It’s hard to describe precisely which makes it hard to give clear feedback that doesn’t spiral into more confusion.

    Last one is another project manager I supervise who consistently loses notes, misses parts of instructions we give, forgets all kinds of details and can’t find them in a messy pile of notes. I’ve suggested checklists and reviewing notes, keeping notes together, and she’s definitely trying but it hasn’t improved much and seems like it’s not getting at the underlying source.

    I want to find strategies to be accommodating if any of these are medical or neurodiverance things but also do need project managers to manage their projects. These are not entry level positions at all.

    1. GreySuit (they/them)*

      I am a person whose memory is a black hole that immediately swallows things I’m told out loud. Unfortunately a lot of what helps is things I had to figure out- my OneNote to-do list is sacred and I’ve started medication that is like magic for my processing words- but if you have the bandwidth, ALWAYS put important details in writing to refer back to. It’s a bit slower than a normal memory but if the decisions and action items are in a meeting notes email, I can find them again.

      Good luck!

    2. DefinitiveAnn*

      This kind of problem is not acceptable in a project manager. Their job is to keep track of details and keep things on track.

  54. Alice*

    Does anyone have thoughts or experiences running a to-do list that separates out TASKS and PROJECTS?
    I’ve seen some systems where every task has to be nested into a project, and — sometimes a task is just a one-off reminder to do something, and shoehorning it into a project or creating a whole new project is just overkill.

        1. Alice*

          TBH I am using Trello now, but I find it really hard to work at multiple levels of granularity. The cards that represent whole projects, with checklists on the card, get lost in the crowd if I start recording one-off tasks in individual cards. And when there’s a card for a project that has one included task that should be in the “doing” column and one in the “blocked” column, for example, I find that a challenge too.

    3. PM by Day, Knitter By Night*

      I use Monday and have a separate task list that I use for either one offs, action items, or tasks I don’t want to put in a project plan. (My project plans are somewhat high level.) Mine is structured with a Group for each project and a “miscellaneous” Group for anything that doesn’t fall into a project.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Can you have a fake project called “General” or something similar so that all your non-project tasks gets added there?

      I haven’t encountered any systems that do both these things well, so I just have an overly elaborate OneNote notebook that does both but loses the automation piece most software has that pulls everything together from different projects/lists/whatever.

    5. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’ve been having some success with OneNote for this. I have pages for each project, and a catch-all “Misc” page for any one-offs that don’t fit in the other buckets. Then I use the tagging system to mark individual lines as to-do, waiting-for, in-approvals, etc. Turn on the Tag Summary feature, and it collates everything into a list sorted by the tags used, regardless of where in the notes it’s written down.

    6. MsM*

      Can you create a Miscellaneous/One-Time Projects “project” and just stick the tasks that don’t fit anywhere else under that?

    7. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Also following this. I use an Excel workbook with sheets for every project plus a sheet for random to-dos, but having so many project sheets means I inevitably miss things. I’ve tried SmartSheets with limited success but I might give it another go (and take training).

    8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So a useful frame for me is tasks that recur, versus tasks that are one-time.

      One-time tasks are either part of a project, or are in effect a project on their own. “Move stuff from closet in room 108 into cold storage in the basement” can be its own thing, or it can be part of project “Onboard new hire SME with special office requirements”

      If I have to use the same software for recurring tasks, I always put a note in there “after completing, create a follow-on task for 30/90/360 days later.”

      If I find that a very large amount of my tasks are recurring, I’ll get a paper calendar just for that and annotate it a few months in advance. (Or do the equivalent in Google calendar or whatever).

    9. mreasy*

      I use Asana at my workplace and I have one “project” that is just my to-do list. I make the sections “backlog,” “this week,” “in progress,” “waiting,” and “on hold” and have the view where I can easily move from section to section. I also used to use Trello in this way.

  55. New Business Owner*

    TL;DR, any tips for a tiny business hiring a very part-time employee? (Probably about 10 hours a week, almost entirely remote).

    My husband and I are transitioning to fully take over his business; his parents are co-owners and they want to be done and fully retired. It’s a tiny business, my husband is the only employee but my stepfather-in-law manages the invoicing, so that job would need to transition to my husban