open thread – January 17, 2025 by Alison Green on January 17, 2025 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer. You may also like:my employee wasn't respectful enough after the company messed up her paycheckmy interviewer sent me an email saying my scars are triggeringneed help finding a job? start here { 1,148 comments }
I'm nervous* January 17, 2025 at 11:02 am Is it weird to send a thank you note to a phone screening? It’s a position I am very interested in!
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:04 am I wouldn’t expect one if I had been the one on the other end of the line, but I suppose if you keep it low key enough, it’s not an issue? Like, keep your most effusive thoughts to yourself until you score an interview and then use them in that thank you note.
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am Yes, this. Keep it more “it was nice to talk to you re: position, thanks for your time” and less “your company seems amazing and I sure hope you’ll invite me to an interview.”
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 3:43 pm I don’t think it’s weird. A phone screening is a quasi-interview. I did it for my last two employers and kept it brief like Slow Ginn Lizz mentioned.
Jasmine* January 18, 2025 at 2:51 am Don’t feel bad … my nesting always fails. This is the only blog I read and I have no kids to explain what I’m doing wrong.
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 am If the screen was 30min or more, maybe, but if it lasted ~15 minutes or less I wouldn’t worry about it. Screens are just that – screening.
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 4:55 pm [Forehead slap.] I will never, never understand why writers and editors are often so undervalued.
Great Tim Horton's ghost!* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 am It’s not weird. I did it every time. The more times you say you’re interested, via a thank you, the better.
Area Woman* January 17, 2025 at 1:12 pm I hire a lot and thank you messages do not impact my decisions. If people sound interested in my discussions, I believe it and I have already received that information. If they can’t make that come across in a screening call or an interview, then a thank you note and another expression of interest rings hallow
Blue Pen* January 17, 2025 at 2:44 pm I would disagree here. No, I don’t think someone should automatically get the job because they were the one to send a TY note. Nor do I think someone shouldn’t be offered the job because they didn’t send a TY note. But if they’re done well, they’re a way to show off your personality, what you were paying attention to in the interview process, etc. It’s more than just saying “thank you,” it’s to make a final case for yourself and candidacy in a personable way.
UpsideDown&InsideOut* January 17, 2025 at 3:08 pm Agreed. And adding that many of them now come accross as ‘gimmicky’, and there is zero room in my very boring mandated rating scheme to give you more points for sending me a thank you. I can however DETRACT points if you send one that’s poorly proof-read, has typos, spells my name or the company name wrong, or gives me any reason to think you aren’t actually the “detail oriented” person you are trying to present as. In my world at least, they can’t help you in any way, but might hurt you.
Helewise* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am I just finished phone screens and appreciated candidates who followed up with a thank-you. It doesn’t hurt and may help if I’m deciding between one of two candidates to pull forward in the process.
Southern Violet* January 17, 2025 at 11:19 am Yeah, I do that, and have gotten jobs because of it. I keep it lowkey. Just one or two lines of “It was nice to meet you, hope to talk again in future, thank you for your time.” Nothing pushy or that requires a response.
Whats That Thing Called?* January 17, 2025 at 11:30 am No but I would only do a very brief email as Slow Gin Lizz said above.
Maple Cheesecake* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm I just wrote one based on Allison’s post for a screening (that, to be fair, was far more interview-y than I had prepared for), and I landed the in person interview! My reasoning was that because I wasn’t as prepared as I should have been for the screening, it helped show that I was engaged, just nervous. Maybe it was a bit much, but I wouldn’t be me if it wasn’t!
Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials* January 17, 2025 at 1:25 pm I do a lot of hiring and while it’s not expected, and you certainly won’t get dinged if you don’t, I like to see it because in my area of work, people who are responsive and communicate do better than those who don’t. So it’s a data point, whether it should be or not.
TechWorker* January 17, 2025 at 2:12 pm Verrry low stakes question – I work in an open plan office but have a lot of meetings so often carrying my laptop/notebook between my desk and meeting rooms. I am also a women with a relatively weak bladder so often need to pee on the way to a meeting! Atm I will either leave my laptop on a desk near the door, or sometimes balance my laptop like, on the sink… is this really weird? Does your office have a better solution for ‘what to do with your stuff if you use the bathroom on the way to a meeting’?
MapleHill* January 17, 2025 at 2:14 pm Not weird and some managers expect it and might ding you if you don’t send one (even moreso for certain types of jobs). I’m not saying that’s right, but I work with a lot of hiring managers and have definitely heard this from multiple people. But just a brief thank you email is fine.
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 11:03 am I’m in the middle of a sticky dress code situation and I need a script to deal with it. My office is rolling out a new, more formal dress code that applies across the board: remote workers, satellite office workers, temps, and contractors. People are furious, but it’s been made very clear that this is mandatory and will be enforced. Here’s where I come in. I’m a temp, with less than two months left on my contract. While I have no problem with the new dress code on principle, I can’t afford a new wardrobe, especially on one that I’ll only use for a few weeks. I’m sure many others will be asking for exceptions to the dress code, but I feel like I have a legitimate case here. I’d like to bring it up to my manager, but I’m not sure how to broach the topic without sounding like I’m just another person whining about not wearing sneakers anymore. How should I phrase this when I speak to her? Caveat: I am not looking for advice on where to find formal work clothes for cheap, potential charities in my area, if I can borrow from a friend, etc. I have neither the time, the money, nor the inclination to hunt down a new wardrobe. I am strictly looking for advice on how to ask my manager if an exception can be made for me because my remaining time is so short.
cbh* January 17, 2025 at 11:05 am I’m just curious…. did you get this job through a temp agency that maybe your placement agent can argue for you that this was not part of the original deal?
Aelstuart* January 17, 2025 at 11:05 am I’m really curious what others have to say, but I think what I’d do is just quietly keep wearing what I already have been and see if anyone says anything.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am I would also do that. Bringing it up means they can say no, which they’re going to do anyway if you keep doing it and then they notice, but there’s always the possibility they won’t notice.
Falling Diphthong* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am Yes, with the end date so soon, this is probably the easiest solution. By the time they start cracking down (if ever), OP can say “I’m leaving in 3 weeks; I don’t want to buy a new wardrobe for that time.” Past letter: OP was working remotely after moving across the state for a few months, something she got cleared before she started doing so. Top brass then decided she had to travel physically into the nearest branch office (a significant distance), and remote work at her usual office from the branch office rather than from her temporary home. Her own manager and the manager of the local office indicated that, while they wouldn’t put this in writing, they indicated they could just not notice where she physically was for the next two months, when she would move back to her usual house and office. And the consensus advice was that this would pass unnoticed if OP just quietly kept on what she’d been doing, being careful not to indicate her location to whoever up top had decided all the remote workers needed to shift position.
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 6:10 pm Honestly, it’s so damn sad that people have to collaborate on these ridiculous work-arounds to ridiculous policies that are clearly only being enforced as power plays against labor. The local management having to collude with their reports only underlines that such policies have nothing to do with work and everything to do with putting said workers in their place.
Radioactive Cyborg Llama* January 17, 2025 at 12:24 pm Yep, the only thing I’d add is to wear whatever stuff you have that’s closest to the dress code and your most boring (non-attention-getting) clothing. I’d like to know how they’re enforcing the dress code for remote workers. I have a fancy blouse on a hook in my office for any meetings that require such. I think the recent RTO/dress code BS is employers having a mass tantrum that employees are starting to think they deserved to be treated like humans.
DJ Abbott* January 17, 2025 at 2:24 pm Yes, I’m thinking keep it under the radar as much as possible. For example if they say no jeans, then don’t wear noticeably light-colored faded jeans, but black or dark-colored ones could pass. Just make it as unnoticeable as possible.
Falling Diphthong* January 17, 2025 at 2:55 pm Agree, this is the time to find your most boring look.
Workerbee* January 17, 2025 at 5:25 pm And it’s like – my knowledge, skill, and caring about this job are not within the clothing I’m wearing. If they’re going to put such stock in the “right” clothing to do a job Or Else, well, they’ll get the level of brains and caring my new shirt has, then.
Blue Pen* January 17, 2025 at 2:52 pm I think this is also what I would do. I’m not sure what the LW is currently wearing to work, but without committing to this new policy, I think I would dip a toe in such a way where—even though I’m not fully participating—I’ll still play ball—e.g., dark skinny jeans instead of formal work pants, ballet flats instead of heels.
Justme, The OG* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 am As a temp, are you employed by a temp agency or by the company where you work? My answer will be different depending.
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 11:11 am I’m employed by a temp agency, though they’ve been aggressively hands-off and always direct me to act as though I’m employed by the company, so it’s up in the air as to who has more say in my wardrobe.
Justme, The OG* January 17, 2025 at 11:56 am In that case I would flat-out ignore the new dress code.
londonedit* January 17, 2025 at 11:07 am I’d probably do as much towards the new dress code as I could with my existing wardrobe, and see whether anyone mentions it. If they do, I’d go with ‘Oh – well, I’m only here for another six weeks, so I didn’t think it was worth getting a whole new wardrobe’ – in a matter-of-fact tone, as if of course they wouldn’t really be expecting you to do that.
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am I would edit that slightly from “I didn’t think it was worth it” to “It would be a strain”. With the wrong person “not worth it” won’t land well.
BlueCanoe* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am Are they giving any sort of grace period? I’d be pretty annoyed even if I were a long term employee and they suddenly expected me to go buy a whole new wardrobe on short notice. I probably wouldn’t bring it up to management, but I would be ready with a response if they talk to you about it. I agree with not using “I didn’t think it was worth it” and go with “it would be a huge strain for me to buy a whole new wardrobe that I’d only wear for 2 months” or “not feasible/practical to buy a new wardrobe for 2 months..” Depending on your job duties, you could maybe also offer to dress up for specific things.. like if you have monthly shareholder meetings or if you have job duties on certain days that are more client-facing. But you might not want to invest in clothes even for that, which is understandable imo.
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 11:36 am They gave about a 5 month grace period, which I think is a little short, but still fair. People here are more angry that they seem to be really serious about it, even for those not in the office. For now, I’ll follow the advice I’ve seen pop up the most: Try to dress as formally as I can, say nothing, and if pressed, explain that it would be a huge strain for me to buy a new wardrobe for 2 months. I hope it works!
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 11:50 am The new dress code is full business formal: Suits, dress shirts and blouses, formal shoes only, muted colors, no loud patterns, etc., and it applies to everyone, including remote workers, contractors, and temps (which is me). How it’s going to be enforced for remote workers is beyond me, but I get why people are mad, even if I don’t share that ire.
JFC* January 17, 2025 at 11:54 am If you are remote, you can probably get away with just adding a dressy blazer or jacket to your shirt, since most cameras are only chest-high or waist-high.
Radioactive Cyborg Llama* January 17, 2025 at 12:26 pm Speaking of malicious compliance, I’d wear the same damn thing every day.
Bitte Meddler* January 17, 2025 at 2:18 pm In my previous company, where the dress code was more formal than my current company, I’d just artfully wrap a scarf around my neck on top of whatever t-shirt I had on. Looked great on camera.
DJ Abbott* January 17, 2025 at 2:34 pm Suits for temps, contractors and remote workers? That’s ridiculous! I was an office temp in the 90s-early 2000s and could not have afforded new suits on my salary. Not to mention, it was even more difficult to find suits that fit and looked good than other types of clothes. It would have been a shopping nightmare. That was in the 90s – early 2000s. And for remote workers? Hanging around home in a full-on suit all day? No one‘s gonna do that! I think some old guy is having a temper tantrum and trying to force everyone back to the good old days. *eyeroll*
I Have RBF* January 17, 2025 at 2:41 pm Yeah, like are they gonna come to my house to verify that I’m wearing the proper toe-pinchers? I work remote, in t-shirt, jeans and stocking feet.
Unreasonable* January 17, 2025 at 5:07 pm No colors? My interview suits and nicer clothes are all bright red, green, blue, or purple – gem tone solids or, infrequently, interesting patterns. I look dreadful in muted colors. I also can’t wear any shoes other than crocs for medical reasons and, also for medical reasons, would sweat through most nicer fabrics unless the office was kept at a reasonable temperature rather than the let’s keep it sweltering most offices settle on these days. Also, how would they know what remote workers are wearing and why on earth should they care?
Riley* January 17, 2025 at 12:19 pm There is a 5 month grace period, and you will be there for 2 months. There is no problem here for you.
Person from the Resume* January 17, 2025 at 12:36 pm I think the grace period is about to be over. For permanent employees not planning to quit soon, I do think 5 months is enough warning. For anyone about to leave the company like the LW I’d resist. Also I totally get the remote employees thinking this is pretty silly and only complying from the waist up if they’re on camera.
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 1:24 pm Yeah, I think I wasn’t clear: They announced this 5 months ago, but will start properly enforcing it in February. From what I can tell, people are mad that they’re actually going through with strict enforcement even for remote and satellite workers, as opposed to anything timeline-wise.
LA* January 17, 2025 at 12:58 pm I think the general plan is good but I’d advise you to have a quiet chat with your company manager there to explain the situation and make it clear that you’re not trying to flout the rules, but you just haven’t been able to find a way to make this work in terms of the timing of the contract and your means. Be earnest and forthright, but clear – you can’t just shut down efforts in that conversation to try to problem solve, so you’re best off just replying sympathetically with “I’ve thought of that and tried it, I wish it could work but can’t at this time” or similar. The reason for this is that you address it early enough to control the narrative and make your job (and those right above you) easier by defining the problem and the solution so that in theory your manager isn’t having to be the middleman between the enforcers and you (which won’t end very well). Then also if others say anything about it in any way, you can honestly say that you’ve had a conversation about it with your manager and hope that it’s enough for management and remind them you’re about to leave.
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 6:17 pm I can just imagine how well hiring future temps is going to go over–“I know they’re only here for three months but they have to wear full formal office wear.” I could see it for banking or law, I guess; something considered conservative in general. But expecting a temp who was hired to say, sort and organize a file room to do so in an expensive, hot, heavy suit and heels is ridiculous.
Seven If You Count Bad John* January 17, 2025 at 12:58 pm Good lord, FULL SUITS?? I haven’t worn a full suit since the last Bush administration! As someone pointed out below, if you’re remote you can probably finesse this quite a bit–plus if you’re remote, you can get away with doing a lot less laundry, at least until they develop smell-o-vision.
Rosey* January 17, 2025 at 4:05 pm Is this return to more formal work attire going to be a trend? Along with a return to open racism and sexism and this weird retrograde conservatism about sex that the youths seem to have? Oh dear god, are we going back to the 1950s?
Who Plays Backgammon?* January 17, 2025 at 5:39 pm I started noticing in my area the trend toward “business casual” coincided w stagnating salaries. As one woman told me, “They don’t pay me enough for all that dry cleaning.”
Rosey* January 17, 2025 at 10:08 pm Well, if the inverse is true and the trend toward more formal clothing also means salaries are going up, then maybe I’ve got this “we’re doomed” thing all wrong, lol
PegS* January 17, 2025 at 5:18 pm I worked for a financial services firm at that time, and even then I never wore a suit. The only people who did were client facing.
blah* January 17, 2025 at 1:00 pm I would add the word “financial” to “It would be a huge [financial] strain for me to buy a new wardrobe.”
Tammy 2* January 17, 2025 at 2:12 pm I have found that on camera, a dark cardigan reads very similar to a blazer. Good luck!
Who Plays Backgammon?* January 17, 2025 at 5:37 pm And given your situation, there’s no shame in wearing the same outfit more than once a week if it keeps you “in code.”
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 6:18 pm Hell, I agree with the poster above who said to wear the same thing every single day.
Ama* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am Yes I would wear the closest things I owned to the dress code and if someone says something just say “I am doing the best I can with what I own since I am only here until X.” (Honestly I would do that even if I weren’t leaving and be honest that I didn’t have the budget for a new wardrobe so I will slowly phase pieces in as I can afford to but since you have a last day I would just stick to that.)
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 3:49 pm I like this. If they get pushy, you could say “It’s not in my budget.”
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am You can probably ask them for an exception based on your known end date, but I would go through the temp agency if there is one as other suggested. Additional consideration: Is there any client facing component to your job? If I worked here, I’d be hard pressed to care about a temp leaving soon in sneakers if a client wouldn’t see them, but if there are clients going in and out and you’re going to stand out a bit, that might change my calculation. But it might change it to “Keep them more in the back office” and not “force them to buy new clothes”
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am What’s the current dress code? Do you definitely not have anything that would fit the bill, or that could tide you over until the end of your contract? I would just say something like “Is there any leeway for staff whose contracts may be ending soon? With me leaving in two months, I don’t think it makes sense to update my wardrobe for the new dress code and I’m hoping there’s some flexibility around that given how different the new dress code is and the financial outlay it would entail to align with it.” Also: is there a possibility of your contract being extended and they just haven’t broached that with you yet? Asking because I know everywhere I’ve worked, people have never been on top of contract end dates even when they want to keep people on, so “two months left” could turn into six or twelve or fifteen or whatever. Presuming you want to stay, which you may not.
CherryBlossom* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am The current dress code is business casual, the new one is full business formal: Suits, dress shirts and blouses, formal shoes only, muted colors, no loud patterns, etc. I’ve been living in sweaters and cardigans for years, and I’ve sprinkled in some fun but still appropriate office colors (maroons, mustard yellows, the occasional subtle floral). The closest I could get to the new dress code is all black and white, but it would still be noticeable as Not A Suit. I do think I’ll try saying nothing and seeing what happens, as other have recommended, but I can’t imagine not sticking out like a sore thumb.
Lifelong student* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am This is an absurd dress code to apply to all personnel. There are many levels of employees with different income levels who cannot afford full business formal. There are many jobs where full business formal is not appropriate. Although this is in the other direction- when working as a para-professional I followed the “dress for the job you want, not the job you have” theory in order to be taken seriously. I switched careers when I achieved professional status and continued to wear the same clothes. I was asked why I dressed so much more formally than all the others (things had changed) and simply said that I had too much invested in my wardrobe to let it go to waste!
Llellayena* January 17, 2025 at 11:35 am Do you have a suit you use for interviews and such that you could temporarily borrow the jacket from (preferably black)? Can you just wear that over your normal office causal attire for the appearance of a suit at first glance?
Spiritbrand* January 17, 2025 at 12:04 pm I agree with this. You probably need at least one formal outfit in order to apply to jobs. Just wear that same thing every day (for spite).
amoeba* January 20, 2025 at 4:44 am I’d honestly just buy a cheap 20 € blazer at H&M, should look good/suit-like enough on camera! (They’re actually quite nice, haha)
Just for now* January 17, 2025 at 11:35 am I would just try to fly under the radar. If they do say something I would politely say “Yes, I saw that change. What is the timeline to require a complete change of wardrobe, for me? I ask because I accepted this job from the temp agency in part because of the dress code. I am not in a position to purchase a new wardrobe for the few weeks I have left on my contract. Can you please help me figure out a solution? I truly cannot afford a new wardrobe”.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 12:03 pm Honestly, it might be worth getting together with some other staff to push back in general and ask the employer to come up with a time frame for changing the dress code. Immediately getting people into business formal is going to be a financial hit for everyone, and I can’t imagine even full-time permanent people making twice as much as you are going to be happy about it. Are they offering a clothing stipend to help ease this transition? I assume not, but if you want people to immediately switch out their wardrobe, there are ways of easing that burden on the staff.
DotDotDot* January 17, 2025 at 12:33 pm No *Colours*? Wow. I have never worked in a corporate setting, but that seems excessive. I would be waiting this out, as it sounds like the permanent staff are going to be up in arms about this. I bet they end up walking it back a bit.
Lady Alys* January 17, 2025 at 2:06 pm Can you turn on a filter on your web cam and make yourself greyscale? That way you could keep wearing your more comfortable and colorful clothing but it’d all be “muted,” per the new (idiotic) dress code.
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 3:51 pm Lol. Off topic, I am beyond psyched for season 2 and admire my restraint in not watching on company time. (I’m even at home!) I definitely deserve some vending machine tokens.
learnedthehardway* January 17, 2025 at 1:26 pm You can put a blazer over a lot of things, and pretend it’s business formal – esp. if you are on video calls. I used to do that back in the days when I was expected to wear a suit at all times. I had some colourful wool blazers (fushia, electric blue) that dressed up a plain black top and pants, for example. Much less expensive than buying suits, at any rate.
Elizabeth West* January 17, 2025 at 4:02 pm I’ve put a blazer over a t-shirt for interviews on Zoom. If you choose dark colors for the shirt, no one can even tell.
Jill Swinburne* January 17, 2025 at 5:34 pm I have seen my husband attend Zoom meetings wearing a nice shirt, a nice watch, and underpants. (Hot day.)
Ellis Bell* January 17, 2025 at 2:11 pm Hmm, do you work for the Matrix? I had to read this twice to really absorb that it’s just suits, or…. suits? Like you can’t even wear a black dress? They let lawyers get away with more than that! I’m assuming it was announced in a really blasé way, like in a blanket memo rather than in meetings or anywhere where feedback and exceptions would be discussed and nobody with a face has actually said anything to your face? If so, I’d go ahead and assume they simply weren’t thinking about temps who were leaving shortly and find my best backstage technician outfit in all black to blend into scenery. Then, blend into said scenery. Something that does pop out in super formal, dressed up codes are trainers with thick bouncy white soles, so if you can wear all black shoes or just very minimalistic shoes, that’d help, but I wouldn’t sweat it if not. If your boss did directly ask you to change into suits going forward, and your sense is that you really, really will be challenged on it, I’d probably buy a longline black blazer to cover a multitude of sins, dig out a long sweater that looks like a dress and when you’re addressed about it, just let them know it’s a challenge, you’re doing your best, without actually asking for permission: “I know leadership want muted colours, so I’ve done my best with that. As for full-on dress suits, I’m only here two more months and can’t really afford to buy more than these one or two items (gesture to your blazer and whatever in your wardrobe most fits the bill).” You could also say you’ve been saving to afford more items…. say it will take you three more months.
I Have RBF* January 17, 2025 at 2:46 pm Business formal for remote and contract people? That’s crazy, and for everyone hideously expensive. Are they giving everyone a uniform allowance to buy all this bullshit? IMO, the whole thing would be a resume generating event if I worked there.
I should really pick a name* January 17, 2025 at 11:13 am Assuming your manager is a reasonable person, just lay out the situation: “I’d need to buy quite a few clothes to comply with the new dress code which doesn’t really make sense considering I’m only here for a few more weeks. It’s not an issue if I just stick with what I’m wearing, right?”
Totally Minnie* January 17, 2025 at 11:53 am Yes, that’s what I would do too. Just go to the manager and say “my contract will be ending in a few weeks and it doesn’t make financial sense to purchase new work clothes that I won’t be using for very long. I will do my best to get as close to the new dress code as I possibly can using the clothes I already own.”
Aggretsuko* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am Well, if you don’t fit the dress code, what are they going to do, fire you? Also, how drastically different is the dress code between what you currently wear and what they want? Are you sitting behind a desk and they aren’t seeing your feet so much? I will note that even if you don’t want to buy a whole new wardrobe (I just get my business clothes at thrift stores), it might be a good idea to have boring business clothes on hand for jobs/interviews in the future. Technically all you probably need are about 5 pairs of slacks and blouses.
Ginger Cat Lady* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am It’s entirely possible! In fact I was wondering if this new super strict dress code was an attempt at laying off people by making ridiculous demands so that people quit. If she’s depending on the income, the possibility of being fired is something to consider.
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 6:54 pm That’s a very good guess. I’d bet money it’s either some old guard temper tantrum or a “creative cost cutting measure.”
Hastily Blessed Fritos* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am Honestly? Even if it’s enforced, it’s unlikely to be enforced aggressively enough and fast enough to affect you. Get as close as you can with what you have, and explain the situation only if you get pushback.
Socks* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am I agree. I’m not usually a “Better to ask forgiveness than permission” person, but this is a situation where I think it makes the most sense to just keep your head down and not draw attention to it. Even managers who are willing to look the other way might not want to explicitly tell someone it’s OK to ignore the dress code.
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 7:02 pm Agreed. A manager might not want to burn capital/credibility with their reports on this, so I’d try not to put the onus on them from the get-go–comply within your limits and be ready to explain if needed.
Venus* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am Agreed, and this is where an aggressively hands-off temp agency might be beneficial. You could maybe say that you’ve reached out to the temp agency for advice given that your contract is nearly done. I don’t know if this would help, and probably won’t, but I wanted to at least suggest the temp agency as an excuse (this likely only works if they are slow to respond, not if they are quick to respond that you need to do whatever the company requests). Otherwise, do your best to comply with what you have and know that they won’t want to fire you when your contract is almost done.
Antilles* January 17, 2025 at 11:42 am This. If they’re just starting to roll out the procedure now, it’s going to be a few weeks before they start really tightening up. Then at that point, if someone says anything, you can say you don’t have anything in the wardrobe that meets the suit-and-tie standard and can’t afford to shop for an entirely new wardrobe for your last two weeks (or whatever). Basically, with only two months to go, you’re just trying to run out the clock.
Wilbur* January 17, 2025 at 11:28 am How are they planning on enforcing this for remote workers? Daily pics to HR?
Mentally Spicy* January 17, 2025 at 1:33 pm Right?! That was my first thought. They want people in their own homes wearing full suits for the whole work day? Why?! That’s absurd. And, like you say, impossible to enforce.
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 6:29 pm The only thing I can think is that the remote workers do a lot of field work, or they have random video meetings with clients/customers that there is no way to plan for in advance
Llellayena* January 17, 2025 at 11:30 am How soon does the new dress code take effect and are they providing a grace period for people to have time to purchase? If it’s going to be another month or more just ignore it. Also, is there anything in your wardrobe the DOES meet the new dress code? Can you just cycle through those items of clothing for the rest of your contract? If you’ve got some but not enough to get you between washes, aim to wear the compliant stuff toward the beginning of the week and lean into an unofficial “casual Friday”. If you do think you need to talk to your manager phrase it as a “this is what I’m doing” rather than a question. “Hey, since my contract is up in X weeks, I can’t get enough clothing to fit the new dress code for that time. I plan to wear Y and Z which is as close to compliance as I can get with my current wardrobe. Thanks.”
HR Exec Popping In* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am As you are a temp with a short term contract I am doubtful they will give you an exception. If their own employees are upset by this they won’t want to say ok to a temp but not their own workers. My advice, take it or leave it, is to try to up your dress a little bit to get closer to what they are asking for given your existing wardrobe and not say a thing. My guess is they will let it slide as they know you don’t work for them directly and will be leaving sooner vs. later. But if you ask, they will tell you that you need to comply. Sometimes with something like this, it is best to let it ride and see how it plays out.
Stuart Foote* January 17, 2025 at 11:54 am I would love to know where you work (or the industry)…I have worked at companies that require suits, but usually that’s a long standing rule vs something that they are rolling out in the year 2025.
EA* January 17, 2025 at 12:41 pm Just keep wearing clothes but only the most sober/preferably black or white ones. I would not say anything. If someone ends up talking to you about it, you can push back with the argument that you’re leaving soon, but I definitely wouldn’t proactively raise the issue.
cncx* January 17, 2025 at 2:48 pm This is what I did in big finance where most employees were expected to dress business formal or at the very least top of business casual. I had a physical job in IT and it was understood I could dress like a stagehand. I wore a lot of black leggings and black sweaters. I was definitely less formal but I blended in
Person from the Resume* January 17, 2025 at 12:42 pm Comply as best you can, but be prepared to see your contract end sooner because you’re not meeting the dress code. Since you’re a temp, they’re planning for permanent employee to return, to replace you, or get by without soon. They may prefer to have you leave a month or so early to enforce the dress code or even send a message to others about dress code compliance.
HonorBox* January 17, 2025 at 12:42 pm While tricky in that you don’t want to be seen as another person whining, I think this is absolutely a legitimate question. Question before my answer: Are you in-office or remote? Or hybrid? If you’re not in the office, I’d find one top that you own that fits the code as much as possible and just wear that every day. If you do have to go into the office, I’d go with “Debbie, I understand the dress code, but I only have two months left on my contract. Given that short period of time, can I continue wearing what I already own and not run out and buy new shoes, etc. I can’t afford that and since I won’t necessarily need it going forward, it seems illogical.” Perhaps there’s something in your contract (either as an independent, temporary contractor or with a temp agency) that gives you opportunity to push back. This is a pretty significant change in expectations and your contract might give you some leverage as you make your case.
Trawna* January 17, 2025 at 1:47 pm Plain black or navy top with fake pearls and neatly combed hair. Every. Single. Day. Anyone who argues that that isn’t business formal for women needs to brush up on their 1950s.
Self Employed Employee* January 17, 2025 at 2:44 pm And if you do wind up needing to speak with them, use “weeks” not “months”, it will sound shorter in their minds.
Artemesia* January 18, 2025 at 7:10 pm I would not ask. I’d look at the stuff I have in my closet and choose something as close as possible to the new requirement and just wear that. Maybe you now have to wear slacks but you just have jeans, but you have a pair of black jeans. If you wear that with a blouse and jacket, it probably works or is close enough that no one will hassle you.
Hello!* January 17, 2025 at 11:03 am We have a lot of flexibility and “fun benefits” at work. I recently had a minor medical issue. It can be serious if not treated, but thankfully it was caught so early the doctors don’t seem concerned. It’s causing me more panic than anything. I have a weekly medical appointment to review this condition, test results, medication. The weekly appointment is only inperson a few times a year, the remaining appointments can be done virtually. I am taking theses appointments during my lunchtime. This will go on at least a year or until I am given a clean bill of health. I know my benefits are earned, compensation and part of my employment. Is it odd to send my boss a quick email thanking her for her flexibility? Maybe some of her favorite homemade cookies (chocolate chip). I keep thinking about gifting up discussions. I am the “baker” in my department I thought instead I would just make sure to include some chocolate chip cookies in the batch next time I go on a baking spree. I’d just like my boss to know that I know she “has to” give me these benefits but I appreciate her going overboard to make sure my medical needs can be taken care of in private and in a comfortable surrounding.
my cat is prettier than me* January 17, 2025 at 11:07 am I think the cookies would be overboard, but a sincere email would be appropriate.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am Just thank her. Cookies or any kind of gift for this are way overboard (and, yes, I would find it odd and uncomfortable). First, you’re entitled to take care of your health, and second, your boss is a human being who probably just sees this as something necessary you need to do and it’s really not a big deal.
Hlao-roo* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am For the cookies: if your department/team has a culture of occasionally brining in treats and leaving them out for everyone, then I think it’s OK to make her favorite cookies the next time you happen to be on a baking spree and leave them out for the whole department (unconnected to any “thank you” to your boss). Your boss will eat some, other coworkers will eat some, everyone will be happy. Especially because her favorites are chocolate chip, and not some rare/unusual type of cookie that may have people thinking “Hello! made these for [boss].”
Justme, The OG* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am An email would be appreciated. Or even a thanks in person.
Not A Manager* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am My instinct is no gift, yes email. Be sure that the tone of the email is “thank you for making it so seamless for me to access what I’m entitled to” and not “thanks for the favor,” if that makes sense.
Honoria Lucasta* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am +1 I’m a big fan of saying “thank you” even if it’s just to someone doing their job (e.g. thanking roommates when I see them unloading the dishwasher) because I *am* grateful and it provides an extra infusion of goodwill into the relationship. But I’m also a fan of being precise about what I’m thankful for, and I think NAM’s point is a very good one: you are not grateful for them doing something extra, you’re appreciating that they made it easy for you to make use of what had already been promised. Baking a gift would be an above-and-beyond response, which is only suitable for an above-and-beyond kind of action.
Dasein9 (he/him)* January 17, 2025 at 12:40 pm I call this “aspirational thanks,” as in I’m thanking someone for what I expect them to be reasonable and generous about and it does seem to help them feel good about being reasonable and generous.
learnedthehardway* January 17, 2025 at 1:30 pm That’s as far as I would go – a “thanks for being just as supportive as you should be” type email. Anything more would be grovelling.
Pomodoro Sauce* January 17, 2025 at 3:35 pm I think you could say that this has been a really stressful time for you, and you appreciate how understanding and supportive your boss has been — that a lot of times jobs have these things on the books but there are bureaucratic hurdles to accessing them — and that you appreciate how these resources are really truly accessible, and that you appreciate the work that’s gone into making them that way. (No gift, I think. You may want to put it in a handwritten card if you feel like it prioritizing your boss’s support — with the email, I’d thank her but I’d also write it towards being something your boss could share with those people who determine benefits, to show what a great program it is.)
Cordelia* January 17, 2025 at 11:12 am A thankyou email is fine, I think a gift would be too much, she’s just doing her job.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:13 am From what you’ve described, I’m unclear where your boss is going overboard to be helpful here? You’re taking your weekly virtual appointments during your lunch hour. Doing them a few times a year in person isn’t an unreasonable amount that you need to be thanking anyone profusely for. If you still want to thank her, though, I would just mention it in passing next time you meet with her, e.g. “I just wanted to thank you again for your ongoing flexibility around my medical appointments” and leave it at that.
Alex* January 17, 2025 at 11:13 am I would just say it to her at some point, like, Hey, I really appreciate all the flexibility here. Especially if flexibility is part of the overall office culture, gushing thanks with gifts would be way overboard and maybe awkward for her. It’s sad that the basic ability to take care of one’s health is such a privilege, but, well, here we are.
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 11:24 am Yeah, I don’t know if it’s the wording or what, but it seems like it’s the company who gives the flexibility and not necessarily your boss, so saying you appreciate it makes more sense than thanking the boss specifically. And also, if you’re taking the appts during your lunchbreak, it doesn’t really seem like you’re using any of that flexibility anyway, you’re just having a lunchbreak and what you do on it doesn’t matter. I daresay that you could even take the appts at some other time during the day and if your company is as great as you say it is (sure sounds great to me!) then it still wouldn’t be a big deal.
Parenthesis Guy* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am I think if you’re the baker in your department and you normally bake cookies that you could give her cookies as thanks. I don’t think you need to do it.
The Prettiest Curse* January 17, 2025 at 11:29 am Agreed that cookies (or any gift) are too much, but how about a nice thank-you card with a hand-written message? I have never regretted sending or getting a thank-you card in a business context.
Teapot Wrangler* January 17, 2025 at 11:30 am I probably wouldn’t. If you were getting extra time off or leaving early or something maybe but you should be taking a lunchbreak regardless and how you use it should be irrelevant to her
Hastily Blessed Fritos* January 17, 2025 at 5:22 pm Yeah, it doesn’t seem like there’s any extra flexibility here? No mention of someone else needing to shift the time of their lunch for coverage or anything, just “I will sometimes have a telehealth visit rather than a sandwich at lunchtime?” There’s nothing the manager even does in that situation!
Ginger Cat Lady* January 17, 2025 at 11:39 am Do not give a gift or cookies, and rethink becoming the office baker, too. At best, say something like “this has been a great place to work, and now that I’m going through this it has been really nice that work hasn’t added to my stress. Glad to be here!” The flexibility is already there. They are not doing anything special for you. It was there before you needed it and it is there now that you do. No gushing special thanks needed, but it can be nice to point out that it makes you happy to be employed by them.
Totally Minnie* January 17, 2025 at 11:56 am I used to be the manager of someone with a health issue like the one you describe, and honestly I was just so happy and relieved to be able to provide her with the flexibility she needed to be able to recover. I didn’t need any kind of gift or extra thanks. She did write me a lovely note, which was so wonderful and kind, but I was truly just trying to be a good boss and a good person, so there was no thanks necessary.
spcepickle* January 17, 2025 at 12:14 pm As a boss who loves cookies I am fine with you bringing them in, but understand that I am going to put the plate in the common area for everyone to share (after eating at least one and putting one in my bag for later!). It is true that gifts should flow down, but people are people and we all like to know when we are doing something well and we we like to hear that you notice our work for you. It is true that your compensation package is earned and it is yours to use, but I read stories on here about all the terrible bosses who make it hard and I know I work extra hard to be make it as easy as possible for my team. A card, an email, a verbal – “Hey thanks for making the work side of my medical appointments so easy” is something I treasure from my employees. If it was a card I would keep it in the file I have of them. All that said it is 100% not expected and if I didn’t get one it would in no way affect my opinion of the employee.
Kay* January 17, 2025 at 12:44 pm If your weekly appointments are truly just you taking your lunch hour and the others are only a few times a year, there really isn’t any flexibility being extended here and it would be odd for an employee to think there was. So, for me, it would be very weird to hear it, even weirder and bordering on bizarre to get cookies for it. Think about it this way, would you thank your boss for allowing you to take a lunch? If so, there are some serious problems. Now if you regularly have meetings that are scheduled during your lunch hour and one day a week that is being blocked for you to take your appointments, then saying thank you would be more understandable. I would just say it in person if that is the case.
WhyDoAnything* January 17, 2025 at 5:11 pm I’m confused – is she arranging for a special place to take these calls? If not, why would she even know about them if you’re using your lunch period? I would find it weird and almost passive aggressive to get a thanks for letting me use my lunch hour to do non-work things- like the person was annoyed I didn’t left them do it on the clock and instead was making them use their break.
Amber Rose* January 17, 2025 at 11:04 am Canadians or people who are good at legalese, I don’t need legal advice I just need to understand hours of work and break regulations. Specifically in Alberta, and specifically: are drivers/couriers exempt from breaks? This is a company that only operates in one province and so is not, according to my law prof, a federally regulated business. What’s throwing me is that the regulation says if it’s “not reasonable for an employee to take a rest period or they’re unable to take their break” then you can just pay them instead, but I don’t understand what would be considered not reasonable or unable to take a break. I’ve been digging through labor law all morning and my head hurts. There’s a reason I only passed my law class by a hair. ;_;
Enough* January 17, 2025 at 11:17 am Not a lawyer or Canadian but my take from past retail jobs would be the situation that there is no one to relieve you so you can go on a break. For drivers/couriers I would think it might be they are not in an area where they can stop to take a break. Such as no places to eat, so no real meal break. Also maybe a delivery that can’t be late so they are in route during a meal time.
Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender* January 17, 2025 at 11:29 am It’s surprising that there’s no decisional law addressing this. As such, look at other laws where a reasonableness or impossibility standard is applied. Analogize from there to the meaning of the regulation and apply it to the couriers from there.
Dinwar* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am I’m not sure about Canada, but in the USA (and I can’t imagine Canada is further behind the ball than the USA on something like this!) drivers are MORE required to take breaks. CDL regs are more or less the cutting edge of work/rest regs, far more aggressive about requiring breaks than OSHA (MSHA–the Mine Safety and Health Administration–is surprisingly aggressive about drivers taking breaks as well). Makes sense, too. When you drive you’re the guidance system for a fairly large missile, and it’s better for everyone if you’ve adequate mental capacity for such work! What may happen is that the driver can’t take their rest period at a specific time–no rest areas or the like–so they have to take it sooner (CDL doesn’t allow you to take it later). Or you switch out drivers. Paying in place of breaks is NOT allowed. That said, I don’t know how this impacts couriers or others who aren’t driving CDL. And maybe Canada is different, but in the USA whether you fall under federal regs doesn’t depend on how many states you work in. If you have a contract with a federal agency you are required to abide by federal regs. I’ve ran into a significant amount of trouble with that, as many contractors that focus on the private sector and are trying to break into federal work simply can’t because they don’t comply with all federal regs. It’d be worth asking someone who specializes in compliance, though, as every government entity deals with this differently.
Amber Rose* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am 90% of starting any labor law related action in Canada is figuring out whether you’re federally or provincially regulated. I had a whole class about it, and my lawyer prof was like, we make our best guess and then we’re wrong and have to re-file. Basically you’re only federally regulated if you’re a federal organization or your work crosses provincial borders, with exceptions related to a bunch of stuff. It’s fuzzy as heck. Anyways, I’m looking at our employee handbook and apparently everyone gets one 15 minute break, period, regardless of shift length, and that seems super illegal? So I want to push back but I want to be prepared first.
ursula* January 17, 2025 at 12:16 pm The biggest factor for whether your workplace is federally regulated is whether you work in an industry that is under federal jusrisdiction, constitutionally (ie telecoms, most large-scale transporation, banking, etc etc). Try looking at the website of the Center for Public Legal Education Alberta (cplea dot ca), which has some good employment law summaries for AB. You can also call/email them and ask – they can’t give you legal advice but they’ll give you legal info if they can. Or ask an employment standards question through your ministry of labour – it looks like they have an online portal. And I’m sure you know this since it seems like you went to law school, but don’t listen to answers on this from outside Canada, however well-intentioned – employment law is one of the areas where we have a lot of variation both between provinces and especially vs comparable other countnries. Good luck! I hope the person in this situation finds a way to get some breaks!
Amber Rose* January 17, 2025 at 12:51 pm Alas, I’m not smart enough for law school, but my current educational program has required two law classes. I did well at human rights law (which is an entertaining topic if nothing else), but labor law just scrambles my brain.
dawbs* January 17, 2025 at 3:04 pm This is actually one of the things that gets weird fast, even in the US…the feds regulate who has a CDL, but they don’t actually dictate breaks if you don’t cross state lines. Mr. Dawbs drives city bus and when he first started, the union hadn’t yet been able to get the company to agree to minimum time between shifts rules. There are federal rules–but those rules don’t apply because the metro-area is in one state and they never cross lines. There were literally people who worked a 12 hour day, had a 5 hour break, and then another 12 hour day. It didn’t happen often, but it was absolutely allowed, because the CDL is just getting the license. The breaks were not under that umbrella. (The union has since gotten a rule into place, but it was a battle. The fact that there are rules protecting trucks of hogs being driven to slaughterhouses (because they cross state lines) but not protecting humans being transported (because they stay in-state) is kinda appalling)
Bird Law* January 17, 2025 at 1:19 pm You can call the provincial work agency to see if you can get some guidance from them, because they are the ones enforcing it. Generally, agency staff fall over themselves to be helpful.
RA* January 17, 2025 at 1:26 pm I googled “Alberta labor laws breaks for drivers” and there’s a result with the title “What are Alberta’s HOS Regulations?” that I believe answers your question. Within that page, there’s a reference to “The Alberta Drivers’ Hours of Service Regulation” that probably has the details you need. (I’m not an expert, lawyer, or Canadian – just someone who likes to hunt down answers!)
Hillary* January 17, 2025 at 4:58 pm Your prof gave you a trick question, it’s not necessarily in the labor regulations. If they’re operating a bus or vehicle weighing more than 12000 pounds the term you’re looking for is “hours of service” in the Traffic Safety Act (the US federal citation is CFR 49 for those who are curious). I’m not sure what the rules are if the vehicle’s less than 12000 pounds, my suspicion is normal labor laws apply. In theory they could be unable to take a break if there’s bad weather, but that shouldn’t be so bad that they can’t take their break late. I don’t know the current Canadian regulation (and trying to figure it out made my head hurt) but the current US rule is a driver must take a 30 minute break after 8 hours of driving. He may work up to 14 hours (of which 11 may be driving) before taking a mandatory 10 hour rest period. After 60 hrs driving / 70 hrs working in a 7/8 day consecutive period he must take a 34 hour break to restart the 7/8 day period. He gets an extra two hours to get parked in adverse weather and the rules don’t apply if a driver runs to/from one location, stays within a 150 mile radius of that location, and works less than 14 hrs/day.
AamAdmi* January 17, 2025 at 8:12 pm I recommend searching the CANLII library for Alberta case law (canlii.org). It has some interesting cases that you can compare to yours to draw conclusions.
my cat is prettier than me* January 17, 2025 at 11:04 am I have a job interview this afternoon! After 2 years of ever-expanding duties and only small COL “raises,” in addition to the addition of a temperamental and out-of-touch COO, I’ve decided to move on. The new job would be the same pay and PTO, but better benefits and less BS. I feel bad leaving my boss and coworkers, but I can’t take it anymore.
ghostlight* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am I have a job interview this afternoon too! Sending you good vibes (:
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am This was me at this time last year. I still miss my old boss and some of my coworkers, but my new job pays a lot better – I even got a COL raise after only 7 months on the job! – and my new boss and coworkers are also great. And I do NOT miss some of the terrible leadership stuff that was happening at OldJob. Feel bad for my old boss who is still dealing with it. Good luck!
Chauncy Gardener* January 17, 2025 at 12:21 pm Well, your boss should have treated you better. Good luck with the interview and remember to interview them back!
Peanut Hamper* January 17, 2025 at 2:42 pm Never feel bad about leaving BS behind. Best of luck to you!
Ms. Frizzle Found her Sizzle* January 17, 2025 at 3:54 pm Good for you for taking this step! Hope the new company has a better attitude, and you find what you deserve!
my cat is prettier than me* January 17, 2025 at 7:42 pm Well it’s a good thing I had this interview, because I got put on a PIP this morning. Twas not the confidence booster I was looking for. I think the interview went well though.
BrandNew* January 17, 2025 at 11:05 am My colleague resigned, and my boss has asked me to the be interim manager for her reports until a replacement has been hired. I’ve never been a people manager before! What resources would you recommend for a new manager?
Helewise* January 17, 2025 at 11:17 am There are great resources on this site if you go to “being the boss.”
RK* January 17, 2025 at 11:21 am If you’re in software, I enjoyed the book “Managing Humans” by Michael Lopp. If you’re not in software, you might even still find some good value in it
spcepickle* January 17, 2025 at 12:28 pm Compassion tempered with an understanding that being passive is not actually kind. But really the best thing to do is take some time and think about the really great managers you have had, what did they do, what made them good, what was their overall attitude. Then spend some time dwelling on bad managers, what did you learn to avoid? Also if you do want leadership books I suggest your local library. Most of them you can read one paragraph or so per chapter and get the gist, see what sticks out for you and your team. But if it does not feel like a good fit, don’t worry there are LOTS of terrible management books. Lastly you are going to mess up, because you are learning a new skill set and we all have moments we would do differently. Treat yourself with the same degree of compassion you would treat a new hire who just messed up. And be forthright in apologizing and/or admitting mistakes when needed, it helps to build trust in your team.
City Planner* January 17, 2025 at 1:35 pm Alison’s book _Managing to Change the World_ is really good, particularly if you’re in a non-profit or government or something similar. I also like the resources available from The Management Center – they are online at managementcenter org.
Stunt Apple Breeder* January 17, 2025 at 1:43 pm I found Crucial Conversations to be a helpful guide. Even reasonable people can become invested in their side of a conflict; tactfully probing intent and developing a plan to reach consensus before jumping into the actual conflict resolution is a valuable skill.
DEEngineer* January 17, 2025 at 2:20 pm I’d be careful doing too much active managing. Typically for interim managers, leadership is looking for someone to do the administrative work and keep things running smoothly. Be friendly, approachable and responsive and be clear with your boss on what she wants your responsibilities to be. Some management resources wouldn’t be applicable for interim positions.
Project Maniac-ger* January 17, 2025 at 4:09 pm Agree! Don’t go in and try to move and shake. Really your job is to keep the wheels turning. Be a safe place and supportive manager and if you notice performance problems tackle them in tandem with your own boss – you don’t know the larger gameplan.
KeinName* January 17, 2025 at 3:17 pm Not specifically for your interim situation but Amy Edmundson gets recommended a lot and her description on how to create psychological safety in teams (ie people are comfortable asking questions, admitting to mistakes, learning without fear, etc)
Eleri* January 17, 2025 at 3:38 pm Be really specific and clear about deadlines and expectations. When I became the manager of my team, I was kind of surprised how often me and my reports weren’t in synch on deadlines and deliverables, even for people I’d worked with for years. It wasn’t a failing on anyone’s part – everyone just interprets everything through their own lens.
WestsideStory* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 pm This site for sure – you can check the archives for many situations that will come up … ….and that can include some scripts for how to ask for additional compensation for taking on additional, supervisory work. The pages here are rife with horror stories about folks who got saddled with manager duties for months because their company discovered that rather than hire a new manager, they could get the work done for free by doubling someone’s workload and not pay them extra, just keep dangling the promotion that never comes.
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 11:05 am Hi! I posted last week about going to HR because my boss yelled at me. It was a weird mix of being validated for my feelings and no manager should be yelling, and trying to get me to see her POV and why she might have yelled. And also that we both made mistakes and now the door policy is clear for everyone and I should not be ruminating on this. I’d say it was successful. But now I have a new problem. Basically, at my performance review a few weeks ago, my boss and her boss said that I need to get more independent and that my boss needs to be able to give me a task and know it will be completed. Which I’d be ok with, but I genuinely have no idea how to do that. I feel like I don’t have any agency. I also can’t always get to tasks she tells me to do immediately, especially if there isn’t a due date, so sometimes she’ll send a “reminder” the next day. Maybe that’s part of it? My boss is the one who oversees everything I do. All the supply orders go through her, she also checks on the supplies in the kitchens (which is my job) and lets me know if they’re “low” and I need to restock. (They are not low, they’re just not filled to the brim.) if there’s a printer issue I have to be the one to fix it, but I can only do so much. If they’re not on a contract we have with a printing company, usually because they’re so old, I can try to google and fix it but I’m not a magician. So then she and her boss usually give it a shot. Any projects people want to give me have to go through her (so she can manage my workload and make sure I don’t have 50 things at once). She’s the first one in her position, and before that I think her boss handled a majority of her job. Like the other day, and to show my line of thinking, my boss asked me to fill up the coffee packets in one of the kitchens, because one of the other kitchens has a coffeemaker that’s out of order and people might go to the first kitchen (we have three kitchens of varying sizes). So, I took the coffee from the defunct kitchen and moved it to the second one, because I knew it wouldn’t get fixed until the end of the week at least. But then she sends me an email asking why there isn’t any coffee in the defunct kitchen and reminds me that people drink coffee all day. Which I know, but they can’t use the coffeemaker in the defunct kitchen….. so I go and refilled the defunct coffee bin. Should I have instead said that I thought the coffee was full enough or something? I think the main thing I have any agency over is the supplies, but even that, she checks and lets me know if something isn’t up to her standards. I’d love to say this is just a me problem, but I watched her do the same thing to other clerks – get on us for supplies being low or not doing a project same-day. I am also unsure because I don’t want to be labeled as someone with an “attitude problem.” Unfortunately I watched a previous office clerk get fired for that exact reason. So, I welcome any advice.
Dust Bunny* January 17, 2025 at 11:12 am I think the problem is that your boss is an unreasonable nut job. Is there anyone at this place who could get her to see reason?
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 7:17 pm Yeah, she sounds like a nitpicking control freak, frankly. Anyone who spends that much time on how much coffee is in which kitchen is not organizing their day well.
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am Honestly, this sounds like a boss who wants you to do, not think. The coffee example – I totally get where you’re coming from and it makes perfect sense to get the unused coffee from the broken kitchen and move it to a working kitchen. You thought about the problem, found a good solution, and implemented it. But it sounds like she wanted you to follow the direction much more literally – fill the coffee packets in the working kitchen from the working kitchen’s stock. I get the sense that she didn’t want you to find a good solution, she just wanted her directions followed exactly. “Should I have instead said that I thought the coffee was full enough or something?” Nope, I would have just followed the direction literally. If there was room to shove 2 more packets into the already-full-enough container, then I’d shove 2 more in there. Same thing with the restock – I’d just restock to the best of my abilities. Even if I think the stock is full enough, she wants them stuffed to the brim, so, stuffed to the brim they shall be. It sucks you should have agency over these things, but I think the reality of your boss is that this is how she manages and it won’t change.
Hm* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am Yes, I think she’s giving you clear instructions, you’re just interpreting them differently. Even if you don’t think the kitchen supplies are really low, if it’s not 100% full and can be refilled, then go ahead and do it. You know now that’s what she wants, even if it’s nonsensical. Also, you say she doesn’t give you deadlines, but you can ask for deadlines proactively. Start doing that with everything and maybe it will train her to give them automatically.
londonedit* January 17, 2025 at 11:31 am Yeah, I’m thinking maybe she’s feeling there’s a lack of communication – if she feels like she has to check up to make sure things are done, and she feels like she can’t rely on you to do things she’s asking you to do, I’d maybe try being more proactive with how you communicate with her. If she sends you a task to do, reply saying ‘No problem – I need to finish the stationery order this morning, but I’ll start on this straight afterwards and will aim to have it done by 3pm’ or whatever. Could be that she’s feeling like she asks you to do things and doesn’t get any confirmation that you’re doing them. Of course, she could also be a micromanager and generally awful, but if she wants to feel like you’re ‘taking ownership’ then I think showing her you’re being proactive is the way to go. Don’t wait for her to tell you to refill the coffee; go and make sure all the coffee supplies are filled up, even if the coffee machine is out of order.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:49 pm I do think she’s just a micromanager. I’ve worked with people who have asked me to do a task and have never followed up or needed me to communicate any kind of a timeline, they trusted that I’d get to it when I could…. boss now is not at all like that, and while I will get better at communicating any kind of timeline, I do think a big part of it is her.
Bitte Meddler* January 17, 2025 at 2:28 pm Oh, for sure, ALL of it is her! But since she’s the boss and, presumably, you want to keep this job, then you’ve got to proactively do things that meet her silly standards. Like maybe put a reminder on your calendar to check the stocks in the kitchens twice a day, and make sure every single bin is as full as physically possible. If this is the hill she wants to die on, so much so that she’s putting it [vaguely] in your performance review, then I don’t see any other choice except to communicate proactively and to do all the parts of your job proactively, both in much more detail / over-the-topness than you’re currently doing.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 3:03 pm I don’t know if the stocking thing is part of what she mentioned in my review, the stocking was just the example I gave because it was a time when I was like “ok I’m going to do this this way” and didn’t ask her before or anything, and then it was completely the wrong move. you’re right tho that I should be doing things to meet her standards. even if silly, and even if they’re not MY standards. she’s the boss…
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 7:25 pm Essentially, it sounds like she doesn’t want you to do things your way, especially without her “permission.” So that means, unfortunately, marching to her beat. She wants you to check in, do things her way? Then that’s what you do.
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 18, 2025 at 9:04 am This is my thought too, that I need her “permission” before I do anything.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am “She wants it to look full” I think is the key takeaway here, and boss just isn’t explicitly stating that. I keep thinking about those videos you see on Instagram of people who have lavishly stocked pantries and I’m convinced the boss here wants similar for the coffee nook because, well, things do usually look much better when they’re full than when they’re picked over. I’ve worked places with C-Suite folks who are really concerned about how the office looks, literally, and I wouldn’t be shocked if OP’s boss was themselves receiving feedback like “The kitchen makes us look destitute when half the shelves are empty.”
Ginger Baker* January 17, 2025 at 12:13 pm My read is 100% this – just think of all the letters we read from Midwest folks who will cut a Last Donut into microscopic pieces to avoid Taking The Last Piece! There’s a similar effect where when the stock on the shelf seems less-than-full, people may start to think there isn’t enough. I would switch to “refill” and “check stock” to not measure against “is there any left?” but instead against “is it full?” and make that your default standard. Also, with the coffee from the currently-defunct-kitchen…can I ask, what was the benefit in your kind of pulling from the not-in-use kitchen? The coffee supplies I presume were not milk or something that otherwise goes bad? In which case, you would only need to refill that kitchen from scratch later when it’s fixed…so, was the benefit that you were running low on supplies (in which case, pulling from there + putting in a fresh order is the right move)? Or was it just that you considered leaving non-perishable supplies in a spot where they would not be used for a few weeks “wasteful”? (This, I do not really get/agree with, again presuming these are non-perishable supplies.). So I think it’s worth answering this question for yourself and really get in the habit of asking yourself beforehand.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:31 pm omg. we are actually in the Midwest and your donut analogy makes so much sense!!! and yes, I do now realize in the long term I was creating more work for myself. but I am by myself in my job right now, so it was a more “in the moment” kind of thinking. I was doing what I could for the situation at hand.
Rocket Raccoon* January 17, 2025 at 6:14 pm I work in a commercial kitchen, and we have a term, “par” that means “going under this amount triggers a restock”. If I check the pasta and it’s 1/2 full, it’s fine. If it’s under 1/2, it needs to be filled, all the way. Every ingredient has a set par value. Usually it is 1/2 of the container, but sometimes it varies. It’s recorded on the order sheet, but everyone eventually memorizes it.
Clisby* January 19, 2025 at 11:56 am That’s how I know when to refill my car’s gas tank. If it gets even slightly below half, I fill it up.
Clisby* January 19, 2025 at 12:21 pm One summer I drove from SC to NM with my daughter. Once we got into New Mexico, we started looking for a gas station every time it got to 3/4 of a tank. There is a *lot* of lonesome road out there.
Jeneral* January 17, 2025 at 11:29 am I agree with this advice. She sounds unreasonable. I’d focus on just keeping all the supplies filled all the way to the brim since that’s how she seems to want it done, even if it seems silly. For the deadline thing, since she keeps following up the next day, it sounds like she is expecting that most everything will be done that very same day. Maybe get in the habit of (a) getting everything you can done that same day and (b) updating her on when you will be able to get to it if you can’t, so she knows you’re not forgetting it. I would also start job searching, especially if you don’t see improvement because it’s not good for your career to keep working for a boss who doesn’t think you’re doing a good job, and because this much micromanaging sounds annoying.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:32 pm I am job searching because this is A Lot to deal with every single day, but also because I don’t really want to be doing admin stuff like restocking the kitchens or doing supply inventory.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:20 pm I like and appreciate this comment, thank you so much! I think that’s the problem, that I’m thinking and she wants me to just, well, DO. (and thank you for validating my line of thinking with the coffee. :) )
StarTrek Nutcase* January 19, 2025 at 4:25 pm In early 2000, I was reassigned to a lawyer to fill in after his nth secretary quit. He knew me & my work, and said he was glad to have an experienced secretary. He handwrote every document, & I typed it & assured it fit court rules. He freaked out! How dare I alter anything! I explained (for ex.: he consistently misspelled the client’s name & “defendant”). Nope, he wanted “exact”. I told him he just wanted “fingers” not a brain so find someone else. After some back & forth, he came to appreciate a secretary with a “brain” and I learned to pretend he was actually micromanaging me.
Random Academic Cog* January 17, 2025 at 11:20 am Sounds like she’s frustrated in general, but you aren’t going to get very far with your current framing. By “acting independently” she doesn’t mean switching equipment around. She means checking the bins yourself every day and making sure they are fully stocked (and stock is rotated in this case since it’s never going to be all used up). She means keeping tabs on the inventory and submitting the order or request with plenty of lead time for delivery, this ensuring nothing is ever less than fully stocked. I’m sure that’s not the entirety, but pretty clear on this specific instance why you’re getting the feedback you are. I would start with following up specific things (stocking independently, immediate notification if you’re assigned something that won’t get done until tomorrow) and see if that improves the situation. Yes, she’s micromanaging, but it sounds like she kind of has to for now and that she’d prefer not to do that.
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 11:38 am Yeah, this. She sounds like a nut job micromanager, but I’d say start with this low-hanging fruit to try to please her: fill all the supplies the minute there’s any space left to fill. And if that doesn’t please her, then I’m afraid Southern Violet (below) is correct and she sucks and isn’t going to change. Honestly, I suspect that is the case anyway, but if you do exactly this thing the way she says she wants it and still thinks you’re failing, at least you have a better standing with HR to say, hey, I did the thing, it’s definitely her and not me. IME, that won’t really get you anywhere, but it might at least make you feel better about the situation.
CTT* January 17, 2025 at 12:04 pm Seconding all this, and want to not that if you’re concerned about being labeled having an attitude issue, doing things X way when you know for sure that boss wants it Y way is a really good way to get that label.
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 2:19 pm Agreed. Hypo, why not think of it as an SOP: supplies need to be at 70% full or more? Seems like that’s the unwritten rule, so maybe make that the official rule in your own head?
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 7:31 pm I’d work out a schedule for filling the stations: Every day at say, ten am and three pm or whatever. I’m assuming she isn’t expecting you to leap from your chair every single time somebody uses one K pod or something. That way you can minimize the time spent on this and look very efficient. If she still complains ask her at what times she’d prefer the restock to happen. Same thing with ordering supplies: make it a weekly task on your calendar.
JustMyImagination* January 17, 2025 at 11:43 am Yes, and for stocking supplies if your standard is “full enough” but boss’s standard is “full to the brim” then you have to fill to the brim.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:24 pm I guess part of it is that my brain doesn’t think “oh, the coffee bin is low, better refill it!” when the bin is, like, 70% full. that is not low to me, and it wasn’t low to the other clerks, either. I think “coffee = low” when the bin only has, like 6 bags left and then I would refill it. BUT if she thinks 70% is low, then I guess I need to adapt that mentality even if it’s not what I would consider low….
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 7:37 pm Yep; it’s all about her perception, unfortunately. Keep a record of stocking and ordering so if you get any complaints you can show her your routine and ask what she’d like changed. (Also if she or anyone else starts complaining about over ordering and supplies piling up.)
BigLawEx* January 17, 2025 at 11:26 pm My mother, who was like this, would panic when the car’s gas tank was 2/3 full. I wasn’t home for too much after high school because this kind of thinking is nonsensical. But if I ever drove to her house, I made sure the gas tank was full. You can’t manage her anxiety in reality, but it sounds like you kind of have to until you can get out. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I’d probably rage quit and live on popcorn for months. (Yeah, I did that once. It wasn’t my brightest moment).
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 18, 2025 at 9:14 am Honestly, if I didn’t leave my job before this one with nothing else lined up (I left when I did because I didn’t want to get fired), I might genuinely just quit. But I don’t want to make a habit out of doing that. My boss is a lot but the rest of my coworkers are fantastic.
Southern Violet* January 17, 2025 at 11:21 am I think this falls under “your boss sucks and isnt going to change”. Rhe only remedy is finding a new job. Sorry.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:25 pm already working on the “finding a new job” part!
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:30 am I think what your boss assumed you would do is take coffee packets from wherever you store them and put them in Kitchen 1, rather than taking them from Kitchen 2 to Kitchen 1 (because now you also have to fill Kitchen 2 once that coffee maker is fixed). Anyway: I think you probably need to have a conversation with your boss about communication and priorities, because a lot of what you describe here could be her micromanaging, but it could be her not communicating effectively what she wants and you not asking follow up questions. A couple of examples: 1) “I also can’t always get to tasks she tells me to do immediately, especially if there isn’t a due date, so sometimes she’ll send a “reminder” the next day. Maybe that’s part of it? ” If she’s not giving you a due date, ask for one! But also: immediately usually means “right now” and “drop everything to do this” and not “when you have time after whatever else you’re doing”, so I assume that’s a pretty big part of why she’s annoyed because she told you immediately and you heard “whenever”. If you have conflicting work that makes that difficult, you have to communicate that, e.g. “I have to finish XYZ for the 11am Operations meeting, but can start this after that” or “I’m working on XYZ today, which one of them would you like me to push back for the time being?” 2) Supplies: it’s your job to check that supplies are low but she seemingly beats you to the punch every time. Maybe that’s her micromanaging, but maybe it’s also an unclear and unstated desire for the supplies to be topped up first thing in the morning and then again after lunch (or whatever schedule makes sense). You won’t know until you ask! Similarly, if the wish is for you to be more independent, you can say “I usually re-stock the coffee when there are five packets left in the storage container. Would you like me to do it more frequently than that?” That way she knows you have a system in place, you’re on top of the supplies, but that you’re open to change if you’ve missed something (like maybe there’s always a six packet meeting at 11am and they scramble every day to find another one). Rinse and repeat for things that are not coffee. Your boss kinda sucks but you need to be able to ask clarifying questions and anticipate needs when you’re in what sounds like a lower level role.
Mutually supportive* January 18, 2025 at 6:03 pm Definitely this point about immediately. Immediately doesn’t need a due date! It’s urgent by default. Think of a deadline for immediately as “by the end of today, ideally sooner”, so if they haven’t heard back by the next day then of course they’ll be chasing up.
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 11:39 am Ok, I think there are 2 problems muddling up together: 1. Completing things on time 2. Not knowing how to complete things or potentially not completing them in the manner they want So, I think you should start with 2. I think in the coffee example it feels like “Since the second kitchen doesn’t have a coffee maker until next week, I thought it would be fine to take some of their supply to restock first room. Would you rather I not?” But here’s the thing, the question I asked myself after reading that: How different is the time between taking coffee from 2 and moving to 1, vs getting additional coffee from wherever it’s held? Because eventually the coffee maker in 2 is going to be back and need coffee, and then you’re going to have to restock that, so all you did in this example was spend time moving coffee from 2 to 1 and then you’re still going to have to go back to stock room and restock, just restock to 2 instead of 1. So you’ve actually kind of made slightly more work by not just getting the restock from the stock room to begin with – which might be ok if the restock room is a significant time difference than pulling extra from kitchen 2. If that’s the case, then it becomes more of a “I thought I’d save some time today because I have X to work on, and refill both kitchens from the stock room later when I had more breathing room on tasks.” This is where 1 comes in – how busy are you? Now, is this kind of nitpicky? Yes, and it does not sound like they’re explaining their thinking well/at all, but it’s not as ridiculous as I could see a complaint being, and they have the position to be a little nitpicky. They’re saying “refill stock” and instead you’re rearranging stock and kicking the can down the road; given what you’ve said about them, I would go back and audit and see “am I doing exactly what I’m told or am I making interpretations like this?”. So if there wasn’t some kind of time reason that you needed to take that shortcut, I would not say anything about it. Given the larger picture here, I definitely would not say anything about this incident either way at this point, but knowing that this may be how they’re seeing it, I would try and avoid doing anything other than exactly what they told me. Now, returning to 1, how busy are you? Do you fill your day? How long does it usually take you to get you tasks done? Have your bosses given you any official prioritization instructions even for general types of tasks? If not, can you write out everything you do in a typical work day and week, and bring it to them and say “This is most of the stuff I’m handling. I have the prioritization of these items looking like this. Does that match how you want me to prioritize? It’s important to me that I get things done on time and when you need them, so I want to make sure I know what’s most important to you.” Also, what does your downtime look like? Do you have any? Do you have any routines built in like “At 3pm I go to the kitchen, check all stock levels, and restock anything low”? Do you make something like that something you do before you start your downtime? Also, nothing I’m writing here necessarily means your boss is right or that you’re doing things wrong, but these are the bosses you have and might help you work with them, so please take it in that manner
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:35 pm so I am the sole clerk for my law firm. there’s supposed to be two of us but the last clerk left and they have not replaced her. as a result, I should be checking and restocking three times a day, but in reality, that does not always happen. if I have someone who needs me to send out a fedex, or there’s an event to set up for, the kitchens are not always a priority like they should be, especially if something is 70% full and I think it’s okay. however, clearly my boss and I are not on the same page about something being “full” so I will need to adapt stocking to “is everything full?” because even though that’s not how I operate, that’s how she does.
The Prettiest Curse* January 17, 2025 at 1:47 pm Your boss’s version of things being full does sound completely illogical, but if she wants it done that way, it’s going to cause you a lot less trouble to just do it that way. My husband used to work for a law firm and, the few times I went over to his offices, the supplies of the free kitchen stuff were always totally full. The few times I’ve been on tech offices, it’s been the same. I think it’s much more of a display thing than a supply thing – their way of saying to visitors “look how well we are doing and how much money we have, we have so many free drinks/coffee supplies/snacks on hand!” So it may help you to think about it like you were stocking a store window or something similar. Regarding your other issue – I think you need to communicate with your boss much more proactively about your task priority list and what you are working on. Since she’s a micro-manager, you might have to micro-manage upwards. So send her an email every morning listing your tasks and priorities for the day. (Don’t make it a massively long list.) When she gives you a task, ask her where on your priority list it should go, if you’re not sure. If possible, get her into the habit of explicitly spelling out which tasks should always take precedence or to give you that info when she is assigning the task. Your boss seems like an awful person to work with, but she also seems quite stressed (probably in part due to being a person down on your team) and it also seems like she gets really anxious when you don’t do things the way she wants you to do them. Given that law firms are notorious for having high standards for office presentation and also for being abusive working environments, your boss may also be getting yelled at by the people above her when things don’t get done a specific way or within a tight time frame. (Of course, this in no way justifies your boss yelling at you, but these behaviours sometimes go all the way down the hierarchy.) I’m sorry that she yelled at you – I have been reading your posts and she seems like a terrible boss. I also think from your past posts and this one that your work and communication styles are mis-matched, and that’s probably contributing to the issues as well. I would also do some reading on managing upwards and effective and proactive communication skills. Even if those skills don’t ultimately work on your boss, the knowledge will still be useful for future jobs.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 3:00 pm Thank you so much – I had never thought about managing upwards, but I will look into this!
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 8:19 pm Three times a day??? How much coffee do these people drink? Honestly, it sounds like you have two different realities clashing here–your boss’s (and quite probably her management’s) version of how things should be, and what can actually happen during a workday. If they need all three kitchens stocked three times a day while also doing the rest of it sounds like EVERYTHING, then you need to schedule your day down to the minute in order to get stuff done, and make sure your boss knows it. CC her on your schedule every day. When she hands you a “now” project, ask her for an end time so you can slot it into the schedule. That said, all you can do as a physical entity is all you can do. It might backfire if she’s confronted with “how/how often she wants this stuff” vs “Everything you’re required to do.” But at least both of you will be on the same page.
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 pm It used to be only 2 times a day – first thing in the morning and then again after lunches were done. End of day was for making sure things like coffee pots were turned off. But then myself and my co-clerk were slacking on the coffee stock in one of the kitchens and she said that we had to be stocking at the end of the day too. I think if it were once every morning, it wouldn’t be so hard for me. But three times a day is a lot. It’s also not just stocking the coffee. It’s napkins and plates and utensils and cold cups and hot cups. Three times a day. All three kitchens. And I’m by myself and trying to balance this on top of everything else, but even if I had another co-clerk, it would still be a lot (and excessive imo). My boss also doesn’t help out most of the time, so I’m really feeling it being the only clerk right now. I think you’re right about the two different realities!
allathian* January 18, 2025 at 12:40 am I hope you find a new job soon, preferably one where you don’t have to restock any kitchens… I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you hand in your resignation.
goddessoftransitory* January 18, 2025 at 5:00 pm In food service this would require at least two full time employees.
Mutually supportive* January 18, 2025 at 6:07 pm Is it worth having a separate conversation, when you’re both calm, pointing out how time consuming this is and trying to get the agreement back to twice per day?
RM* January 17, 2025 at 11:49 am sounds like she is just kind of a micromanager who doesn’t trust other people to remember to do stuff! If she tells you that you should have done something a different way, do you really need to do anything other than say “Of course, I will do it this way in the future” in a positive and upbeat way? Logically, that doesn’t make sense for failing to read someone’s mind on the tiny details of a one-off task. However, I think it might emotionally satisfy her that you are listening to her feedback and care about doing things “correctly.” For the pre-emptive reminders about non-immediate tasks – is there a way to make your to-do list visible to her? Like if there’s a little whiteboard on your desk so she can see that thing she mentioned Monday is on the list to be done Wednesday. Finally, about the supplies, can you create a system? Like ‘pars’ in a warehouse or restaurant kitchen. You just check weekly (or longer interval if you have larger stockpiles) and re-order if you’re under par. She might do less fussing and checking if she knows that Hypoglycemic has calculated weekly consumption of each snack and reorders new snacks every Tuesday if stockpile of the snack is < 2x weekly consumption (or whatever number makes sense). Then she can limit her fussing to I think we need to change the cookie par from 16 to 20. Or she can just update the spreadsheet herself.
Seashell* January 17, 2025 at 11:56 am If she’s sending you an email to do a task and a reminder email the next day, maybe you need to address the first email before a reminder is needed? I’m not sure from your comment if you’re responding to her at all, but if not, I’d go with telling her, “I should be able to get that done by 4pm” or whatever. If you’re not sure when something needs to be done by or when you will be able to get to it, ask if you should prioritize that over whatever other task you’re working on. If something is already done, let her know before the next day so she doesn’t have to bother with a reminder.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:38 pm I think that’s a good point – if she doesn’t give me a deadline like EOD, I get to it when I can. sometimes it’s that day, sometimes it’s not. but I should be responding and letting her know that this is on my to-do list and I’ll get to it after I finish restocking the kitchens/filling the printer paper/whatever. I try to communicate if I don’t think I’ll be able to get something done that day, but I should probably be better about that. if she sends the reminder anyway, which she might, I at least have let her know that it’s on my list and the reminder is on her.
Can't think of a name* January 18, 2025 at 10:55 am If she says she wants you to do something immediately and then you don’t respond/do it until she sends you a reminder the next day then I can sort of understand her micromanaging. In her mind she can’t be sure you’ve done the task because you haven’t responded. So email her and confirm you will do it immediately/by end of day whatever and then email again once it’s done. I’d hope that kind of proactive response would make dealing with her easier.
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 18, 2025 at 11:35 am If she says to do something immediately, then I do it. But if she doesn’t give any kind of a due date, I’ll get to it when I can. If I can’t get to it that day, she’ll send me a reminder. I wonder if she has a due date that she’s not communicating. I’ll be better about asking for one or letting her know if I can’t get it done that day.
BuildMeUp* January 17, 2025 at 12:08 pm She definitely sounds frustrating! I think overall you just need to accept that this is the type of boss she is, and either adapt or find a new job. I’ve also worked jobs where restocking kitchen supplies was one of my duties, and the expectation with those was to do a sweep of the kitchen(s) every few hours and top off anything that people had used. So an hour or two after people started arriving in the morning, I would restock all the coffee pods so the containers were full. It does seem silly, because of course there are plenty of pods and people can still make coffee even if the bin isn’t full. But having the containers be full was an optics thing, and a way to make sure the containers never actually got empty. For the time being, I would just accept that this is one of your boss’s expectations and plan to check the kitchens and make sure everything looks the way she wants it.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 12:39 pm this is a good comment, thank you. I don’t know how well I can adapt to this, but I am going to try, because finding a new job will take longer than I think (I’ve never been one of those people who can find a job in a week).
blah* January 17, 2025 at 1:05 pm When I’m asked to do something, I always reply “When do you need that by?” because I work for multiple people. It helps me create mental deadlines for things. Eventually you learn which things will take priority. As for the kitchen snacks, you now know she wants them filled to the brim, so just do that.
Saturday* January 17, 2025 at 1:30 pm People are saying she’s a hopeless micromanager, and that might be true, but I think it’s worth making some changes to see if things work out better. Starting viewing your job as “keeping supplies fully stocked,” instead of “replacing supplies when they are low.” Try communicating more when you get a task, “Unless you have another deadline in mind, I’ll start working on this this afternoon and should have it completed by tomorrow” (or whatever). Over time, maybe she won’t need to hear that, but it sounds like right now she’d like more communication.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 2:13 pm I will definitely be trying more of the things suggested in dealing with her! I don’t know how much of a difference it’ll make, but hopefully I can make things a little more pleasant even if by just reframing the stocking as filling things up.
NaoNao* January 17, 2025 at 1:37 pm Ultimately it sounds like “job search” but in the meantime I’d start a list of her typical requests, and make it a checklist (perhaps sending it to her for approval) and then just get on top of the tasks as much as you can without asking. Like every day, “check on food levels and top off if needed”, “ensure all coffee is in operational order” but I’d also do *exactly* what she says and not take any initiative. Like she said refill the coffee? Refill coffee only, don’t switch coffee makers around or anything else, don’t interpret or go above and beyond. I’d also send out emails “coffee is refilled in Station A” to document you did *exactly* what was asked.
Seamyst* January 17, 2025 at 1:46 pm It may help your mindset to think of your boss as a rockstar or celebrity who has “ridiculous” demands, like 37 green M&Ms in a cut glass bowl or whatever. Sure, it isn’t something you’d do on your own, but that’s what she wants so that’s what she gets, right?
Kay* January 17, 2025 at 2:26 pm Looking at this it is clear that you and your boss do not communicate the same way. Think of the supplies this way – you and your boss are asked if the glass of water filled at 50% is half full or half empty. Your boss would obviously say the glass is half empty and you would say the glass is half full. Your boss has very clearly been saying that the supplies are not full enough yet you haven’t picked up on that. For the record I would also question an employee that chose to basically do twice the work of stocking the kitchens by emptying one to stock the other instead of just pulling from back stock, or when I asked for something to be done immediately yet I hadn’t heard anything about it the next day. She is micromanaging you likely because she feels she has to – in her mind she has given a directive and it isn’t being followed. Whether the workload is reasonable or not I can’t say. I would proactively be either asking for a deadline or letting her know when you can get to things and asking if priorities need to be shifted when you get more work. If she is managing your workload she expects things to be getting done faster than what you are doing them and if you can’t do that you need to be communicating with her about that. She wants you to be able to manage your workload and understand priorities without her constantly following up. No boss wants to feel like they constantly have to chase employees down for things they expected to be done already. These expectations are going to be present in most law offices or high paced sectors, so you may want to consider a different type of environment if you are looking for a new job.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 2:54 pm while it is now very clear my boss and I don’t communicate the same way, I know other clerks had the same problems I am having. I do want to make it clear that she’d be managing my workload/projects from other people regardless – it’s policy to go through the person’s manager at this firm. someone would not just ask me to do something without looping her in. And by “I don’t get things done immediately” I mean more along the lines of she sends me an email asking me to go around the office and update the phone directory. She wants it done by EOD. I’ll get it done by then, but I might not be able to start on it right away. If she tells me to start on it regardless of what I am doing, I will. I will get better at communicating my timeline of tasks or other things I am doing, if I am unable to do The Thing, like, Right Now. BTW, your “glass half full” example made a lot of sense!! I think thinking of it like that will help. :)
JB* January 17, 2025 at 2:42 pm You need to work to her definitions. If “not filled to the brim” = “low” for this manager, then that is the way you think about it too while you’re working this job. It may be unreasonable or silly. It also may be that the visual of something being full is important here and she understands this better than you because of her position. But if it’s consistently happening that she’s telling you “fill everything in X kitchen” and then checks your work and things are not filled to HER standards, then yes, she is going to feel like you can’t be trusted to do the job on your own. All of this I am saying with the understanding that she’s probably not a great person to work for. Managers in positions like this often are not – the job doesn’t pay enough to attract good managers, and the fact that she yelled at you (which is, yes, never appropriate) also indicates that it’s bad. But if you want to look like a good employee, you do have to do the best to meet her expectations when they are possible, even if it seems silly or impractical.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 2:59 pm that’s the theme I am picking up on in this thread – that yes, her expectations might be silly or unreasonable or whatever, but they’re hers, and I should do my best to meet them. I think thinking of restocking as “fillings everything up” instead should hopefully help a lot. and I will be communicating more with her about when I will be able to get something done. I also wonder if part of this is because over the summer she let one of the co-clerks go because of “attitude problems.” but this clerk had been used to doing things her way (started well before my boss), and I guess there was a lot of stuff my manager didn’t know about (like entire spreadsheets for printer inventory), which we didn’t find out she didn’t know about until after said co-clerk had left. so I wonder if she’s trying to avoid that happening again, her not being in the loop on stuff. she is also the first person as office manager – before her the role did not exist.
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 3:13 pm thank you to everyone who has given advice so far!!! I do really appreciate it. going forward, I will do my best to communicate my timeline of stuff for my boss, and ask for a due date if she doesn’t give one and it’s not something I’ll be able to do that day. if she makes it clear that it’s something that needs to be done Right Now, I drop whatever I am doing and do that. but she doesn’t always make it clear, so I should definitely get more information right when she asks. I will also never see eye to eye with her on the stocking of supplies or things being “low,” but I am going to do my best to do what she says and make sure they’re stocked to the brim. but working for her is A Lot to Deal With and I am looking for other jobs that are not admin-based – or at least not like this. I don’t think I’m the best fit for this job, and while my boss doesn’t help, it’s def my fault, too, and while I don’t love getting micromanaged, I’m sure on some level it’s warranted, especially if she’s getting heat from higher ups. I really don’t want to make anyone’s life harder, so from here on out I am going to try and do better. having typed all that, I do think that a large part of this is just who my boss is (a micromanager) – because I’ve watched her do this to other clerks, too.
Honoria Lucasta* January 17, 2025 at 5:36 pm I’ve read through this whole chain and I *feel* for you! My mom spent two years at a small manufacturer being slowly ground into the dust by a micromanager with trust issues. She’s actually been hit hard by some health stuff since, the kind that is exacerbated by stress, and I have wondered if that time contributed to her problems now. You have my heartiest encouragement in looking for a new job!
hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 17, 2025 at 5:58 pm <3 i'm so sorry for your mom. but it sounds like she's at least out of that environment, which is a good thing!!
BigLawEx* January 17, 2025 at 11:37 pm Good luck. I’ve been reading these every week and I really feel for you. I’m honestly wondering how you’re supposed to do all this kitchen restocking AND fedex and other office duties like making sure filings are out for the filing clerks, etc. As an attorney I was completely blind to this. I mean stuff just happened. I sincerely hope our office manager (whom no one liked, though I never tried to get to why) wasn’t this way. I will say that sometimes people think some attorneys are more picky than we are. I could care zero about how the coffee pods looked or napkins or whatever, but it’s maybe because I’m a woman and I know the labor involved. For the men, they loved perfect paintings and rugs and throw pillows and whatever, but knew nothing of the labor involved. I have no idea if clients care. I can’t be happier to be out of that environment.
Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)* January 18, 2025 at 9:12 am That’s why the kitchens sometimes get pushed back – because I’m supposed to deal with fedexes immediately – which sometimes involves scanning them for people. The thing is, the kitchens aren’t open to clients. They’re just for staff. I’ve never had someone complain to me because the black tea only had 4 bags in the cup.
Orange* January 18, 2025 at 9:01 am One more thing you might try: ask her if she’d be willing to sit down together with a typical busy day’s to do list and think out loud about how she would plan the day. The tone isn’t “see — this is impossible!” but “I want to see your judgment in action so I can have it in mind as I navigate the work.” It will tell you not just how full she wants things but also how to prioritize filling the coffee vs fixing the printer, and it will give you shared vocabulary to use when you need to juggle tasks. It’s important the she get into the “why” behind her thinking; not “do it all,” and not “I’d do them in this order” but “first I’d do anything that the partners will see” or “first I’d take care of anything related to a time-sensitive filing,” etc. When managers get in the weeds they fail to communicate the principles they’re working from — and that’s what you need!
No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 am I’m curious about what people’s opinions are on this job posting below. Especially with the letter earlier this week about the terrible on that was likely generated by AI. It’s long, but I think it does a fantastic job of setting expectations on both sides so clearly. I’ve never seen a posting before where they give you detailed information about pay, benefits, who you’ll be working for and what the position entails. https://ynab.pinpointhq.com/postings/166e1cbd-693f-46b4-b298-81cd2989cdad?utm_medium=social&utm_source=YNAB+Social+Media I just wish I was qualified for it!
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 11:52 am I’d say overall my vibe is that you’ll be getting a workplace with really clear communication, solid benefits, and a lot of expectation that you’ll be self-starting and self-driven. It runs the potential risk of being a bit too peppy, especially before coffee. I’m also seeing distinct undertones of looking for someone passionate about the app itself and personal budgeting in general, which isn’t unreasonable at a small company. I’d be more worried about that if they didn’t spell their benefits out really clearly. As it is I might want to talk with some of the employees there without the manager and get an idea of how closely the day-to-day matches the job description, but that would just be my “covering-the-bases” interviewing process. If I were a project manager, I’d apply without much of a second thought.
Great Frogs of Literature* January 17, 2025 at 3:09 pm It reminds me of the job descriptions at my last job, except even more so, and having seen how that company compared to its job descriptions, I think you’re spot on. The coworkers are probably A LOT, but if it’s an environment that works for you, it’s very likely a great place to work.
MissBliss* January 17, 2025 at 12:13 pm I hear that YNAB is a really good place to work, so I am not surprised that they’d have a thorough job description!
Green Goose* January 17, 2025 at 12:38 pm I love it, especially breaking down the group of people the role would work with. I’m casually looking and I’d love a jd like this.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 1:37 pm I liked it! Sure, it was a little corny but I also thought it gave a very clear picture of what it’s like to work there and what they were expecting.
Nameo* January 17, 2025 at 6:05 pm Hijacking this thread to ask you, Peanut Hamper, how you got experience in product management! It seems impossible to get the minimum 3 years of experience that allll of the postings I see ask for, even for junior/associate positions
Plate of Wings* January 18, 2025 at 4:32 pm I’m not a PM but at a previous company several of the project managers started as content managers or customer points-of-contact or implementation managers at the company then moved to a project manager role. All of those pre-PM roles had in common that they oversaw individual customer launches or deliverables for customers that took a few weeks or a few months. So there was some overlap with project management tasks, but they were too small of projects to have a dedicated PM. They worked with the customer to make and follow a plan for what the customer needed, and they were accountable to the customer. Then they moved into project management (or product management/product ownership) jobs where they did the bulk of the planning and resourcing and organization themselves and they were accountable to the chief product officer (or something like it) and held to the company roadmap. Hope that helps in some way, it was definitely a way to build up to those jobs with more responsibility.
The Prettiest Curse* January 18, 2025 at 5:59 am There were some things I liked and some I didn’t. What I liked: – You get a very clear sense of what the team is like, what the job will be like and what they are looking for in a candidate. 10/10 on this front. – It was also really good that they were specific about where candidates should be based and what the set-up is for employees outside the US and UK. – It’s great that they outlined exactly what the hiring process will look like, with timelines. All employers should do this! – Another thing in this ad which should be standard: provide a contact email for anyone who needs accommodations during the hiring process and details of how to request accommodations. – They told applicants exactly what to write in their cover letter! What I didn’t like: – The first two paragraphs were a bit cutesy and slightly annoying (“spendfulness” – really??), though this may be because I’m a cynical and stuffy British person. – The salary should have been listed at the top of the posting. I sometimes re-post our job ads and I always put salary and closing date directly after the job title so that people who are scanning down the page (which is what most people do when reading job ads) can immediately decide if the salary is in their desired range. – The whole thing was a bit too long, though they may have included all that info because they’re a popular place to work and get a lot of questions. I think they will still get questions, because a lot of people probably won’t read the whole thing. This was an interesting read, thank you for posting it!
AJB* January 18, 2025 at 9:46 am *cries in public school teacher* I really do love what I do most days. But my goodness. The difference between even the best public school and this is a bit depressing.
Asking too much* January 17, 2025 at 11:06 am Can I vent? I am looking for senior- and principal-level technical writing roles. I have over 20 YOE. I am SO SICK of constant job postings that expect me to have years of coding experience. I am NOT a software engineer. If I was, I would do that job, and earn the appropriate salary for it. You want a champagne employee on a beer budget, and you can BITE ME. Anyone else who is looking at job postings that expect the world for free: please go off.
Grrr* January 17, 2025 at 11:13 am Ugh yes, I’m a grantwriter and I increasingly see posts that want the position to write, manage *and implement* the grant. Uh, just writing millions of dollars in grants every year is a lot of work already. Doing all the reporting is pretty common, but my expectation is that program staff is going to do the Big Lift on that (apparently, not so much anymore). If I’m also in any way implementing 40-50 grants that seems like a LOT to add on top of that!!
Ama* January 17, 2025 at 11:35 am I am only looking for contract /part time nonprofit jobs right now (I have my own freelance consulting business and am always looking in case something fits with my prior experience) and the whole sector is completely unrealistic about hiring right now. They either are trying to fill four skillsets with one position or pay what works out to barely minimum wage once you figure out how much time the work they want will take (saw a repeated posting for a 20 hour a week job as a managing editor of an academic journal that only paid 15K).
MsM* January 17, 2025 at 12:21 pm Yeah, if that’s what you’re looking for, you don’t want a grant writer. You want a program person who doesn’t mind writing their own grants. (Which, good luck with that unless you’re planning to pay them in a way that reflects they’re doing at least two jobs.)
Parenthesis Guy* January 17, 2025 at 11:45 am A principal-level technical writer doesn’t make more than a junior level software engineer? That surprises me. I would have thought that someone with that skillset would be making at least close to six figures if not more.
Procedure Publisher* January 17, 2025 at 11:53 am I saw a tech writer role that wanted a CPA or something similar. That was the only requirement I didn’t meet for it. My accountant sister explained why it would be weird for a CPA to want that position.
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 4:26 pm Unless it’s a tech writer role for specifically accounting documentation it would indeed be VERY weird that they want a CPA for it. To my knowledge there’s basically no crossover.
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 6:35 pm Or maybe small business that is trying to get 2 for the price of 1 deal on employment?
An Australian in London* January 18, 2025 at 2:56 pm Or maybe they want to hire someone specific but are obliged to advertise externally before being allowed to hire their preferred person. I’ve seen this in government department scenarios, and also when there are visa sponsorships to satisfy. Have to prove no-one else can do it, so they write a weird job spec that only their preferred candidate can meet.
Procedure Publisher* January 18, 2025 at 12:55 pm It was at an association related to accounting. Even so, I would still think that someone with a CPA would not want this role at unless salary expectations was disclosed upfront.
CL* January 17, 2025 at 12:43 pm Feel your frustration. I wonder if we are going to see more of this combining jobs and part-time writing as the unreasonable expectation grows that ChatGPT can write anything you need.
Mockingjay* January 17, 2025 at 1:52 pm Ding Ding Ding! I completely agree. I’m fortunate to be a TW in an industry that doesn’t permit AI tools for security reasons (yet), but I’ve still noticed a sea change in writing standards – NOT for the better. There are so many generative tools that can produce voluminous copy, even outside of AI, and management and engineers think we’re just here to make that generated text into “pretty” or “nice” documents. They have no idea about all the other things we do: ensuring the doc complies with government and industry standards, consulting with experts to validate technical data before publishing, writing to a prescribed level depending on user/audience, adjusting fonts and format for print vs. screen display, document management and file storage, etc. Now my company has gotten us Adobe Creative tools and we are encouraged to use Photoshop and learn Illustrator (on our own), so we can help out the drafting team by taking small diagrams off their plates and produce corporate brochures for the C-suite. One of my coworkers was asked to fill in as a minutes taker on a new project for months, because they hadn’t hired an admin yet. It’s going to get worse, especially for new and mid-career TWs. Job scope and commensurate pay are going to be issues. I make about what the engineers do (six figures), but I’m an outlier, mainly because I’m old and nearing retirement. My younger colleagues may never hit an equivalent pay level, even though they are far more talented than I am. (I mean that sincerely. Our current doc team is phenomenal.)
Elizabeth West* January 17, 2025 at 4:27 pm Gaaaahhhh. If you want me to learn something specifically for a particular job, then you can pay for it AND adjust my schedule so I have time to learn it. I may have to work until I die, but at least I’m not going to do it on my own time.
goddessoftransitory* January 17, 2025 at 9:28 pm YES. If you want this skill set so badly, company, you can pay for the learning and time.
Green Goose* January 17, 2025 at 12:47 pm I’m casually hunting but I’m looking for a company that is a multinational. The roles I’m looking for are a relatively new thing. It’s been around for about two decades on a small scale but really only started to become popular in the last five years. All of the specialist and associate roles for this are asking for 5 years in this type of role and it’s like huh? For a manager or director that would make sense but it’s just annoying. I have less than two years in this field and feel like I should be a shoe in for an entry level type role and the pay seems low considering they ask for so much experience. Grr.
An Australian in London* January 17, 2025 at 12:59 pm I had a recruiter cold call me for a UK job for a senior DBA who is also a sysadmin and database developer. The ad also wanted multiple rare niche products that are not widely known, and to a senior level. They wanted 7-10 YOE. They offered £35k. I pointed out that was below some starting salaries for fresh graduates, none of whom would know the niche products, and said I’d consider £35k a year for 12 hours/week especially if I do arrange those around a 9-5 day job. There was no second interview.
Banana Pyjamas* January 17, 2025 at 4:51 pm Reminds me of my job search back in 2016. I was looking to transition into private sector, and there’s a lot of attorneys in my niche. A majority of the paralegal positions were listed as entry level, required 5 years of experience, 4 year degree, and the ability to build and manage Microsoft Access Databases. All for $10/hour. I did NOT transition, but I did relocate to a more reasonable job market.
An Australian in London* January 18, 2025 at 11:27 am What gets my goat with these is they are subject to market forces selection pressure: if they didn’t work the practices would drop off. So they must be working often enough to be worth continuing, just like spam emails.
NaoNao* January 17, 2025 at 1:42 pm I’m in Instructional Design and frequently see 5-6 jobs in one, including videographer (which is very irritating as a former job had an entire specialized staff to do that for very good reasons!), graphic designer, trainer, succession planning, professional development, and technical writer. Plus LMS back end stuff.
Procedure Publisher* January 18, 2025 at 1:01 pm I wouldnt mind this but some parts would require an expert guidance and advice.
A perfectly normal-size space bird* January 17, 2025 at 2:30 pm I recently saw a job ad for a copy editor that looked great. The company seemed like it had a fun vibe, was progressive, and the pay was ok. But they had one requirement for applicants that drove me nuts. We were supposed to find the error on their website and note what it was and how we’d fix it in our cover letter. Okay, annoying requirement at the start, especially since there’s no site map, but this is the kind of things I’ve seen before. Except they also said we need to use our browser’s developer tools to look at the site code because the error might be in there. This is a copy editor position, not a coder or web dev position. From the job description, there’s nothing requiring coding experience and they certainly weren’t offering a salary bump for those skills. I decided not to apply but a web dev friend of mine did. She said she couldn’t find an error anywhere and said so in her cover letter. She got an interview, which is when she found out they really want someone to also be a copy editor AND their web dev but they didn’t want to pay for both.
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 4:16 pm Absolutely agree. How underhanded! I frequently proof sections of our website without ever checking under the hood. Our web developer makes the changes or uses my Word file, and all is well!
Eleri* January 17, 2025 at 3:45 pm I encountered this a lot during my last job search. I am in data/analytics, but have held more functional/strategy type roles as opposed to highly technical roles. I was looking for precisely more functional/strategy type roles – since that’s what my experience is, and it’s what I enjoy – and all these companies basically expected their “analytics manager” to be an expert-level developer, a chief data officer, and an operational people manager all rolled into one. With the salary of only one person of course (that wasn’t that great btw). I’m talking big organizations with large data teams – if you want me to manage a team of 15+ programmers, I am not going to have time to do programming myself. I can understand wanting someone with technical acumen to lead the team, but a majority of the job descriptions were really 3+ positions worth of responsibilities smooshed into one. Oh yeah and like 15+ years of “hands-on programming” experience in a ton of languages. Any one of those roles is its own career path – it’s highly unlikely anyone is going to get someone with all that experience, especially at the salaries they were offering.
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 4:10 pm So sorry to hear this and I wish you better luck. I can only speak to the writing and editing arena and am curious if this happens in other fields. Sooo many hiring managers think they ask for a writer or editor while also asking for a half dozen other things. No, I am not going to hunt down new clients. No, I am not going to design for you. No, I am not going to create and implement new marketing strategies. No, I do not have a JD degree, and why did you mention that at the very end? And a tangential pet peeve—saying they want an editor (thus it comes up in my search) when they strictly want a writer!!
Elizabeth West* January 17, 2025 at 4:22 pm I saw one for a technical writer when I was job hunting in 2023 that wanted the candidate to have 1) a STEM degree, and 2) a PMI certification. For $19 an hour. *blinks*
Anne Shirley Blythe* January 17, 2025 at 4:58 pm [Forehead slap.] I will never, never understand why writers and editors are often so undervalued.
CodingRequired* January 17, 2025 at 5:21 pm Maybe reconsider the types of tech writer positions you’re applying for? I made my career as a technical writer who can code and you would be an abject failure at any of the places I’ve worked and most of the hundreds (thousands?) of places I’ve interviewed at if you can’t code. It is a legitimate job requirement for many types of technical writers, as are many other technical skills. If you want to write documentation for a less technical audience, limit your search to those types of positions (maybe include end user in your search criteria?), but don’t complain about the positions laying out legitimate job requirements needed to be successful at the position.
ShazamIT* January 17, 2025 at 11:08 am With extreme cold likely early next week, what’s the best way to phrase asking for work from home or time off? My bosses generally don’t like WFH, so I kinda want to vibe check. I know some places (better places) you could just say hey Im working from home, this cold is intense
Dust Bunny* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am Is there a specific reason that the cold should justify working from home? I’m in Houston, which is due to get uncommonly cold (for the area) next week, but unless there is precipitation that causes things to ice over and make driving unsafe, in which case my workplace will probably tell me to WFH, anyway, there isn’t really any reason I can’t get to work–I just need to bundle up a bit more to do it (I usually ride the bus and train, which are enclosed and heated).
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am I don’t know where ShazamIT is, but in Chicagoland it’s going to be highs in the single digits with sub-zero windchills likely. That can cause cars to have trouble starting and be dangerous for commuters or anyone who needs to walk any distance from transport to office. While we’re used to cold, that’s colder than typical here. Shazam, I would say if you have specific reasons why your commute could be dangerous, I’d probably frame it that way.
WantonSeedStitch* January 17, 2025 at 11:46 am This. If it’s going to make your commute dangerous, or add a ridiculous amount of time to your commute for some reason, then talk about that.
PurplePeopleEater* January 17, 2025 at 11:46 am When I was in Chicagoland and commuted via Metra, I always checked Chicago Public Schools: if they told kids to stay home due to cold, I worked from home and encouraged other folks I managed to do the same if they had any concerns.
CL* January 17, 2025 at 12:44 pm Yup. If it’s too cold for kids to wait for the CTA bus, it’s too cold for you to wait on a Metra platform.
ShazamIT* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am Yes it’s the walking outdoors being unsafe. The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.
LimeRoos* January 17, 2025 at 12:00 pm Yeah, definitely check then. Walking commute with that cold of windchill is not worth it and hopefully they’re sympathetic.
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 12:19 pm Yes, I agree that’s a dangerous temp to be out for that long in, and is a very solid reason to ask for WFH.
Funko Pops Day* January 17, 2025 at 12:22 pm If there’s any kind of Official Guidance you can point to (“The NWS is recommending people avoid spending prolonged time outdoors, and I have a 30 minute walk as part of my commute”/”The City has issued a Warning instructing nonessential workers to stay home”), I think that will also help frame this as “dangerous conditions for my commute” rather than “I don’t wanna go out in the cold”
ShazamIT* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.
HonorBox* January 17, 2025 at 12:55 pm I grew up in the Midwest and understand cold temperatures. Without this clarification, I was going to tell you that you might just have to go in because people do deal with cold temperatures. But, if you’re walking 30 min, that is potentially problematic. Especially at the beginning and end of the normal work day, you’re not going to have tons of sunlight to help you feel warmer. While you have a legitimate request already, I think it might make it harder to deny if you can offer that you’ve checked alternate options. For instance the following: *I have checked around and no one lives close by enough to give me a ride *I did some checking and finding an Uber early on Tuesdays is unreliable at best *Looking at NWS information, they don’t recommend exposure to the temperatures of more than 8-9 minutes. I think the more information you can proactively share showing that you’ve done some due diligence and aren’t just trying to not come in because you’re chilly (I’m not saying that myself, by the way) the stronger your case is.
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am My workplace would also need a specific reason for why the cold meant I couldn’t get in, though, I do live in the Northeast so bad winter weather is very common. The cold alone wouldn’t justify WFH. If you live somewhere not used to winter weather or the cold, I can see why you might be worried about navigating potentially icy roads without the infrastructure to properly salt/clear them and I think you would just say that when asking.
Spreadsheet Queen* January 17, 2025 at 11:29 am Yeah, mine is one where I can just say “I’m working from home.” (And I probably will. My pipes are prone to freezing, even though there is technically sufficient insulation, yada, yada. So, if it’s going to be below freezing for more than a few hours, I have to drip my faucets. I’m not a big fan of dripping them when I’m not home when the cold is more extreme – because something could still go wrong and I want to be there in case I need to shut off the water.) In parts of the country where these sorts of temps only happen a couple of times per year, I think if your work CAN be done from home, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask. Plus, bonus, you can set your thermostat (or run a space heater) however you want instead of shivering in your always too cold in office space.
Anne* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am I would not recommend asking to WFH just because it’s cold, especially since your bosses are pro-WFH anyway. It’s a pretty hard sell. Heck, I’m normally in favor of WFH, and I’m having a hard time believing the cold is a good reason to stay home. (If the roads were dangerous/icy, that would be different. But just the cold? Throw on an extra layer or two and wear proper outdoor wear.)
ShazamIT* January 17, 2025 at 12:00 pm The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me. Yeah I know it’s wimpy to not want to work in person when it’s cold, it’s just a pain to have to do that many layers….
Anne* January 17, 2025 at 12:30 pm I still think you’re going to have a hard sell to your bosses. I would also advise to not mention it is a pain to put multiple layers on when speaking with them; it really does not help your argument.
Tradd* January 17, 2025 at 12:37 pm I grew up in a really cold part of the Midwest. I think you’re going to have a really hard sell. Mentioning the multiple layers of clothing being a pain would not be in your favor.
Don't Call Me Shirley* January 17, 2025 at 2:30 pm That is barely elementary kids get indoor recess cold – it’s a temperature you dress for. I don’t think it’s a compelling case to stay home in a place this is normal cold winter day.
fhqwhgads* January 17, 2025 at 9:41 pm Just wondering where? Under 15F was “indoor recess” where I used to live.
Freezing my beans off* January 18, 2025 at 10:50 am I think you have this wrong. I live in New England and the guidance here is that under 0F kids stay inside. I will walk my kid to the bus if it’s above 5 or 10F. We are a “just dress for the weather” culture here where everyone is in shorts if it’s above 50F. Negative numbers in F are dangerous— your nose hairs and eyelashes freeze when you breathe. You need ski goggles and ski masks to cover every part of your skin. Frostbite can happen in under 10 minutes.
Kay* January 17, 2025 at 2:33 pm Is cold weather typical for your area? If so your bosses are likely going to categorize this as “you are expected to be able to get to work under normal circumstances” and these fall within normal circumstances.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:44 am Canadian bias here, but cold alone would definitely not be justification for WFH in my workplace. Inclement weather, possibly, but mere cold during winter would never fly. I don’t love leaving the house on days when it’s bitterly cold either, but that’s kinda the nature of life in a cold location. Is there a reason you want to WFH due to the cold, besides preferring WFH or not wanting to go outside when it’s super cold (both reasons I fully understand and subscribe to)?
ShazamIT* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 12:07 pm Okay yeah I definitely wouldn’t want to walk for half an hour in that temperature (-22C / – 28C with wind chill for us Celsius folks). That’s the angle I would go with then: my commute involves a half hour walk and this temperature is untenable for that length of time. If your boss wouldn’t react poorly, I’d also say something like “I’m happy to come in, of course, if the company wants to reimburse me for a taxi, which will be $X round trip, but I can also work from home if that’s easiest.”
Funko Pops Day* January 17, 2025 at 12:54 pm Agree but with the slight edit to “this temperature is dangerous for that amount of time”. The issue isn’t that it’s unpleasant, it’s that it could foreseeably result in bodily harm.
Kay* January 17, 2025 at 2:38 pm I think the OP needs to account for the fact that a non WFH supportive office is going to expect an employee to have reliable transportation to the office as a requirement for the job. I normally walk to the office means I pay for my own taxi should I not walk – not, because my chosen form of commuting doesn’t work for me today the company should pick up the tab. The possibility management will not be pleased with this request is probably high.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 3:10 pm Yes that’s why I said only to say it “if your boss wouldn’t react poorly.” If you think they won’t be pleased with the request, don’t ask.
Jaunty Banana Hat I* January 17, 2025 at 12:32 pm I would focus on the risk/danger that the commute will involve, not just the cold itself.
LimeRoos* January 17, 2025 at 11:59 am So it really depends – agree with a lot of others that cold alone usually doesn’t cut it, but the area and wind chill are factors. I’m in Minneapolis and prior to covid, I’d only be working from home when my car battery didn’t start (once it died at work, that was fun lol). Once the windchill gets -20 to -30, that’s when I’ve noticed even the non-wfh companies are more flexible with wfh. Solid chance we hit that next week. I’d go with ThatGirl’s suggestion with framing if you’re in a below 0 area or there’s a big snow/ice risk, otherwise you’ll probably just have to bundle up.
Gaia Madre* January 17, 2025 at 1:28 pm Wait until the day of and say: “My car won’t start this morning, the cold killed the battery, so I’ll work from home if that’s ok, thanks.”
Banana Pyjamas* January 17, 2025 at 5:01 pm If you have paid time off that doesn’t require significant advance notice, I would just take the time and not give a reason.
Scarlett Johnson* January 19, 2025 at 2:48 pm I work at a university that has some policy around this but if campus is open and you are an in-office staff you need to be there. Cold weather isn’t enough to stay home. If you do have to stay home, I would probably encourage PTO. It isn’t your employer’s responsibility on how you get to work. If you walk to work, maybe that isn’t a day you walk. Maybe you take an uber. You make the choice on your transportation and there are positive and negative consequences to those choices.
Throwaway Account* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am I’m wondering how many of you who are exempt from overtime also manage your own time. Meaning: 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? I just want to get a sense of how this works in most workplaces.
Grrr* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am Yes, but I have a very individual-contributor type role. These things kind of depend on that. If I had to be constantly interacting to get anything done, it would not be as easy to swap daytime for evening hours or decide I’ve met my own deliverables enough for the day that I’m going to stop working. Also, in my role, we don’t have time sheets. I’m expected to complete my work in more or less 35 hours / wk but nobody’s monitoring that. My boss would talk to me if I was always weirdly unavailable when someone needed me or if I wasn’t getting my job done.
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Generally, yes, if it’s not too often. If it’s happening more frequently, then optics start to come into play, and I’ll make the time up even if I don’t really need to. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Kind of? We’re pretty flexible and the culture is that some days you’ll stay late, some days you’ll leave early. We don’t do a strict one-to-one exchange, like, Tuesday I stayed late so Wednesday I’ll come in late. It’s more, this week I had to stay late four times. Next month will be our slow period so I’ll leave a little early a few times. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? Generally no (see above). A busy period might mean I don’t get to take flex or comp time right then, but eventually it evens out. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? Nope! 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? Also nope.
IndyDem* January 17, 2025 at 3:58 pm These responses are near identical to what I’d type, so I’m just agreeing and saving some keystrokes.
Tea Monk* January 17, 2025 at 11:19 am My workplace is unique, but mostly I just kinda come and go. If there’s a meeting I’ll be there on time, but sometimes there’ll be a work emergency and I’ll be late. This happens more often to other people. The fact that we always work extra and have on call with no comp time is why my boss lets it slide if I have a doctor’s appointment. I don’t track my time. I usually just decide I’m working 9 to 6 if I don’t have any meetings that require me to work beyond that. Like one day I got home at 7:40. I don’t work as long as everyone else and in general if it’s not done by 7 pm, it’s not getting done. But maybe Im a slacker.
Tea Monk* January 17, 2025 at 11:25 am I do sometimes work on weekends to get caught up, and hate it when people call me at 7 am. ( I’ve trained everyone from calling me on weekends or at night)
Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand* January 17, 2025 at 11:20 am I’m exempt and my manager has set the precedent that as long as the work gets done and emails/calls are answered in a timely manner, it’s ok to take time away during the day for errands or appointments. I don’t track my time but I do try to be available from 9 to 5 most days. If I know I’ll have to be away during the day for an appointment, I’ll usually start working early. My manager often needs to take calls from the car picking up their kids or change times on things due to childcare duties and I don’t mind at all. I get my work finished on time and stay proactive, and that seems to keep everyone happy.
Dust Bunny* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am I am not exempt but about half my workplace is and the general operating procedure is: 1. Not routinely. Unless their position is intentionally part-time the expectation here is that everyone works 40 hours a week, with only rare exceptions. 2. Yes. 3. No. We are virtually never expected to work overtime, nor to do any work outside of a normal work day, WFH or not. 4. No. I think this would only happen if you were actually on a PIP. 5. No. We’re asked to use PTO in half-day/4-hour blocks. Nobody cares if you take an hour here and there as long as it’s not a regular thing. (We’re not understaffed but there is plenty of work to do here. Running out isn’t really a thing.)
Dust Bunny* January 17, 2025 at 11:25 am If this matters, we serve patrons and have core hours, so while there is some flexibility we can’t accommodate, say, someone working from noon into the late evening as a regular thing.
Tippy* January 17, 2025 at 11:24 am For both my current and last job I was exempt, salaried. 1. Yes for current; typically yes for old one just depended on meetings that were already scheduled. 2. Yes for both 3. Yes for both. My current job doesn’t really do flex/comp time and the last one was weird enough that if I pushed for it I probably could have gotten it but in the long run it would made my day to day harder. 4. no to both 5. no to both
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 11:25 am 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Not required to, but I also don’t fuss too much over a daily accounting since I have a lot of flexibility 4. No 5. No, but if I have something that will take more than, say, 20 minutes I count it as “lunch” and more than an hour that’s non-medical, I take a half day.
The Other Evil HR Lady* January 17, 2025 at 11:33 am I am exempt and salary, but I do have “service hours,” so to speak, that I’m normally expected to be at work (I work in-office). That’s the nature of my role because I support a large population of in-person workers. But, if I need to come in late or leave early, I just do. I also work nearly 12 hours every Monday because of reasons (I don’t have to, I just do it to make sure I don’t fall behind). I don’t track my time, but I do punch in and out – I still don’t know why, because I’ve forgotten to punch and I still get paid my salary (I’m new-ish to the company and no one has explained it yet). But, all exempt employees must clock in/out, and I don’t really mind as long as my check looks the same as every other check. At any rate, I don’t see working over 40 hours as me “eating my time,” because my extra hours are not wildly above 40, and I do get flexibility in other areas. At this employer, I don’t have to use up PTO if I’m gone for an hour and only work 39 hours one week. There are other employers who do ask that – but that’s their prerogative, since PTO is a benefit that the employer controls (this assumes that we’re not in a state that guarantees time off, etc. – which I’m not).
PokemonGoToThePolls* January 17, 2025 at 11:35 am I’m required to report at least 40 hours on my timesheet each week as an individual contributor who works on customer and internal projects (less any holidays/PTO), and the level of detail that’s submitted seems to vary by person. I’ve been told I’m one of the more-detailed people, so: 1. I have to have 40 hours/week so the time must be made up somewhere 2. It hasn’t ever been a problem to work longer one day and less another, as long as they’re in the same week (see 40 hours/week timesheet) 3. This has never happened to me but others do work long hours with no makeup, though my boss is insistent that they do not need to do this and have never been asked to do this and rather have been asked to share work so this doesn’t happen 4. We don’t have anything in writing as to how detailed our timesheets need to be, but for mine it tends to look like “30m, start day; 1h, review project notes and make updates; 15m, reboot and update pc; 20m, track time on timesheet” etc. I have been told that I’m more detailed than most 5. No, as long as it gets made up somewhere during the week, this isn’t a problem. I usually do take PTO for Drs appointments, though, since you never know how long they will be or how long you’ll have to wait to be seen, etc, and I’d rather have a less-stressful half-day (we have unlimited PTO)
JMR* January 17, 2025 at 11:40 am I’m exempt and a manager, and I have never tracked hours or “made up” time. I don’t use PTO for short appointments, even personal ones. I do what I can to schedule around work commitments, but if that’s not possible and I have to miss something where my absence will be noticed, I will give my boss a heads-up. (I have one medical provider who never has a ton of appointments available, so I have to take what I can get.) But most of the time, I just block off the time on my calendar and vanish for a bit, and no one cares. I do work after-hours sometimes, but I don’t nickel-and-dime it. Like, I wouldn’t think, “I left an hour early today to run to the dentist, so I have to work an hour this evening to make up for it.” As long as stuff gets done and it doesn’t seem to be happening too often, it’s fine.
sdog* January 17, 2025 at 11:40 am ugh, nesting fail, I ended up down at the bottom: I’d say this varies so much from one workplace to the next and also even internally from one manager to the next. Mine is pretty flexible but asks that we be generally available during the regular workday (I’m not public facing but do work with others who or who work standard business hours and rely on me to be available). So while I manage my own time, I communicate if I know I’ll significantly veer from the schedule. Boss is flexible if I say that I need to flex my schedule, for example, during school breaks (and the reality is that she likely wouldn’t notice anyway), but I let her know her anyway and make sure that I’m putting in the time even if it’s not during the normal hours. If I’m cutting out for short periods to say, pick up a kid or drop kid off to an activity, I don’t announce it and don’t usually make up the time. Today, for example, I’ll likely put in some solid time from 10-4 and call it good. If I’m running late here or there, or need to leave a bit early, I don’t mention it. I have evening meetings often, and those days, I come in late that day or the following day without announcing. I often take longer breaks or take calls while I’m out walking during lunch. Since I often get pulled into meetings, I’ll block off times that I might need for personal appointments and errands but won’t necessarily make up that time later. I work for a government agency, so I do have to report hours, but I rarely track it closely and just put full 8 hour days regardless of what I actually work (unless I’ve requested leave). All that being said, I also often work a lot more than 40 hours. If things need to get done, I do them, even if it means late nights or weekends. I am the only person that does what I do in my group/agency, so it’d be obvious if it didn’t get done. This is why I feel comfortable “slacking” off at other times. I’m conscientious about getting everything done and being communicative where I feel it’s needed, and I like to think those qualities over the years have earned me the flexibility that I now have. I also think I have a reasonable boss and if I ever felt that my workload was requiring me to eat up too many hours, she’d find a way to get me help.
Pickles* January 17, 2025 at 4:54 pm I’m exempt and salaried and am in a high leadership role. I am thoughtful about my time because other people-hourly staff—don’t have as much flexibility and see my actions do I try to keep the variation to a minimum. I also use time off when I am away from the office because I don’t want to be accused of abusing the system. It’s the environment I’m in now, but not worth drama.
Fake Cheese* January 17, 2025 at 11:43 am For context, I’m a project manager in a tech-adjacent services industry. I’m also on the west coast of the US and my team is mostly on the east coast or in Europe 1. As long as it’s less than 2 hours and I don’t have any meeting conflicts. However, due to time zones, I generally schedule appointments in the afternoon so I can leave early rather than arrive late. It’s better for me to cut into “solo” work time than collaboration time 2. On a case by case basis, yes. I am allowed informal “comp” time if I really push and work extra hours to get a project delivered or something. However, sometimes that gets delayed until the end of the project, at which point my line manager generally looks the other way while I work a few shorter days to recover. Again, I generally err on the side of leaving early rather than arriving late. 3. Similar to 2 – it’s case by case. My grandboss is big on balance though, so if I’ve been working 12 hour days for the last 2 weeks of the project, they’ll generally tell me to take a couple short days after it ends (without logging PTO). 4. Kind of? I don’t have to track “I worked 7:25 – 11:53 and 1:02 – 4:35 on Tuesday,” but I do need to log the hours I spend on each project for budgeting purposes. 5. Generally no. Our PTO system makes it difficult to log less than 4 hours. I’ll usually flex my weekly schedule to make up for up to 2 hours, and between 2 and 4 I’ll run it by my line manager. It’s generally understood that in my industry sometimes we’re working 35 hour weeks and other times we’re working 50 hour weeks.
Sporadic Park* January 17, 2025 at 11:45 am 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Yes, although I have a rule of thumb that if I am truly unavailable (or *should* be truly unavailable, e.g. at a doctors appointment or getting a haircut) when I am late or otherwise out of the office, I will take PTO. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Sure. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? Not required that I know of, although a previous boss at this same institution once told me comp time wasn’t a thing (even though I 100% managed my own schedule) 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? Not at all. 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? See my answer to #1. This is generally at my own discretion.
Wilbur* January 17, 2025 at 11:49 am My workplace has gotten much better about flexibility and remote work since the pandemic. 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? No one’s really tracking hours, but the expectation is that you’re going to work 80 hours over the course of 2 weeks. Prior to the pandemic we had a policy where you could work 8 hour days, 4x 10 hrs, or 4×9 and either work every other Friday or a 1/2 day every Friday. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? We can flex our time. I have a lot of meetings with people in Asia, so very early morning and late night meetings are common. They’ve asked us to have core hours from 10-2 and to be in office T/W/Th to the best of our abilities. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? Not really, there is an idea that some weeks will be very busy but you can kind of flex it to a certain degree. Work travel is the most egregious of these, days can be ~12 hours long (travel to factory, workshop, business dinner, more travel). Flying to Asia usually involves leaving on a Sunday and trying to squeeze as much as you can in that week, so it can be hard to flex that many hours. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? No. We do submit our hours, but there’s only a few categories we charge them to. 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? No, they understand if they want me to be flexible for the business they need to be flexible for my life. That being said, while executive leadership approves of these policies they’ve repeatedly shown themselves to be out of touch. My division has made it pretty clear that if the company becomes less flexible, we will also be less flexible.
dulcinea47* January 17, 2025 at 11:50 am I was told several things (by my supervisor, not by HR) that aren’t in line with how salaried jobs are supposed to work. Luckily, I do manage my own time, so as long as I get 40ish hours of work done, I’m satisfied. I also have the kind of job where my work is never “done”. There’s literally always more for me to do.
Medium Sized Manager* January 17, 2025 at 11:50 am 1. We don’t have set start and end times, so yes as long as it’s within reason. For example, I work out in the morning and sometimes don’t start until closer to 930-10, but I am in EST and my team is across the US so they are not affected by these start times. I don’t usually make up the time but will stay later if work needs to be finished. 2. Yes, if we have a late release or long days, can either come in late or leave early. 3. We don’t track super close like working 3 hours extra in one week resulting in flex time, but if I worked 6 days in one week, I would definitely take the flex day. We don’t have comp time to my knowledge. 4. No 5. No – I only take PTO if I was unavailable to work and could not make up any of the time (ex: sick for a few days). Fair warning: I have a very casual culture and my boss places strong emphasis on a work life balance where we are never expected to work more than 40 hours a week. We are also internal and not client facing, which affords more flexibility.
2 Steps Forward* January 17, 2025 at 11:51 am I’m an exempt employee. My company expects me to be in the office from 8:30am – 5:30pm Monday through Friday as a general rule, but I have a lot of flexibility. 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Generally yes. Part of my work is meeting with people, so of course I have to honor those appointments 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Yes, but it’s not expected to be “comp time”. If I have an AM appointment, I come in late. If my work requires me to stay late, I stay late. My boss / company expect that I will be available starting at 8:30 regardless of what other hours I worked unless there is a reason. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? We don’t have comp time, but I have the flexibility to handle personal appointments and things. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? No, I don’t track my time at all. The important things are – the work gets done and that I’m generally available as needed during normal business hours. I don’t have a job where I have to respond instantly during those hours either – I generally respond to urgent incoming requests within an hour, unless I’ve set my calendar to show I’m away 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? No. For example, I left at 4pm last Friday to take my son to an event, and didn’t use PTO. My work is well handled. I may not have worked a full 40 hours last week but it didn’t matter
Red Reader the Adulting Fairy* January 17, 2025 at 11:54 am 1) Yes, if it was less than half a day. 2) yes, technically, again if it was less than half a day. 3) required? Not usually. Does it happen? Sometimes during like project deadlines. 4) Nope – there’s a time card but for salaried folks it defaults to 8a-430p regardless of actual work hours and is only there for purposes of assigning everyone 40 hours a week and monitoring PTO usage. Individual managers have to figure out what works for their salaried reports as far as the necessity of monitoring actual hours. I’ve never had a manager who was super picky about it, but I’ve also never been inclined to short my hours and need closer monitoring. 5) No, our policy is that as long as you work minimum 5 hours it counts as a full day, with an understanding that this is a sometimes thing, not an everyday thing.
Llellayena* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am My job is billable so it’s a little different from many exempt office jobs. I can flex when I come in and when I leave for lunch/appointments, but I need to track my hours and log 40 hours each week, whether work time or PTO. I can’t flex outside of the week (so no making up 2 hours from one week in the next week). I am not required to work outside the 40hrs, but when I do and I log the time, my company does pay overtime (at flat time though). I can choose not to log extra hours but that is somewhat frowned on because it throws the calculation for number of hours to finish a project (it does happen though).
WantonSeedStitch* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am Speaking as an exempt person in a management role who still has individual contributor duties: 1) Yeah, pretty much, but if I’m coming in late, it’s considered a courtesy to let my manager and my direct reports known. 2) Maybe? I’ve never bothered. 3) No one ever tells me I need to work extra hours. If the work requires extra time, I need to put it in, but I hear “get X done by [date],” not “you have to stay until 6 tonight/work through lunch/come in early.” 4) No. 5) For non-medical reasons? No. Vacation time only comes in half-day chunks, so if we’re going to take any vacation time, it’s at least half a day. For medical appointments or logging off early due to illness, we use sick time, but we get sick time that is close to unlimited.
Tradd* January 17, 2025 at 12:08 pm Int’l transportation/customs broker here. Manager. I’ve always had to clock in/out even with being salaried. If you work extra hours or on the weekend (urgent stuff), no comp time. No flex time. You can’t come and go as you please. Hours are set in stone. If I take time for a doctor’s appt or the like, I will either make up the time by only taking 30 min lunch instead of an hour, or coming in/staying late. If it’s a more major thing that needs like a half day off, I’ll take sick time if a doc appt. If you’re late a major amount, it needs to be made up.
E* January 17, 2025 at 12:12 pm I currently have core hours where I’m expected to be available to answer phone calls and emails but otherwise manage my own time. PTO is used for when a whole day off is needed. But I am an individual contributor who works from home 4 days a week. People in other departments do not have the same flexibility. I’ve held the same position at 2 other companies and one was very strict with butts in seat 8am-5pm and the other was more flexible but not as much as my current spot.
Insert Clever Name Here* January 17, 2025 at 12:12 pm 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Generally, yes. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Yes. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? I sometimes have to work emergency situations outside of my normal work hours. I either get comp time, get paid “overtime” (depends on the emergency and is the equivalent of my hourly rate, not 1.5 time), or decide we came out even because I came in later/left earlier that week prior to the emergency. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? I have to submit a timesheet, and we can record time down to 15-minute intervals; my timesheet is usually “Regular Charge Code = 6.75 hours; Specialty Project That Is Outside My Usual Charge Code = 1.25 hours.” 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? Generally, no.
AnonExempt* January 17, 2025 at 12:32 pm I work for a company that requires time tracking because we are a contractors/subcontractor for federally funded projects. The expectation is that our time cards are 40+ hours every week. There are no issues flexing time within a week (I worked 9 hours tuesday and took a long lunch Thursday, e.g.) but we can’t flex across weeks (e.g., if my time card is 50 hours this week, it still needs to be 40 next week). We have no cap on sick time, so things like medical appointments or “I got a migraine and had to stop work early” can count towards the 40 hours. There’s some ability to have managers flex stuff/offer comp time for things like staying late one night/coming in late the next day or working through the weekend before a deadline/taking a comp day in the next couple weeks. (We have core hours so “coming in late”/”leaving early” would be something pretty significant like arriving after 11 am/leaving before 3:30) We take PTO in 4 hour chucks, so I tend to use PTO if I’m going to be out >2 hours in a week and just flex time for < 2, but that's a personal choice and not a requirement.
Alyn* January 17, 2025 at 12:32 pm It’s highly dependent on your manager where I work. My current role and boss are exceptionally good at understanding life happens, and you may need to come in late due to a doctor’s appointment or whatever w/o requiring you to make up the time, or giving you comp time if you end up needing to work on a weekend due to a business need. We’re not required to track time. We only need to use PTO if we want to take half a day off or more. That said, I had a friend in another department who worked for an inflexible manager; the type who wouldn’t care that you were in an hour early on a regular basis (because it was easiest with your commute) and wouldn’t cut you slack to let you leave an hour or two early for an appointment, but instead forced them to take a half day PTO; the type of manager who paid a lot of attention to exactly when you got into the building and when you left (we have a swipe badge system so the timestamps are recorded) and would bring it up if you were 5 minutes late or left 5 minutes early. Those are real examples from events in the past. As you can guess, on teams like mine there is very little turnover, and we are much happier to go the extra mile as needed, knowing that when we need some slack, it will be granted; whereas on the team my friend not only suffered from regular turnover, but due to the inflexibility of the manager resulted in people working exactly how long they were required to and no more. Make them take a half day PTO because they want to leave an hour early for an appointment? OK, you’re only getting 4 hours of work instead of 7 (since a half day PTO = 4 hours), etc. Not sure how new hires deal with it (or if they can find out about those attitudes before accepting an offer) but it’s definitely part of the informal conversations that happen prior to any sort of internal job transfer. I’ve turned down offers to move teams in the past due to what I knew of the manager’s inflexibility regarding timekeeping.
This Old House* January 17, 2025 at 12:36 pm There’s the official answer and then there’s what anyone’s individual supervisor allows. I have a new supervisor right now, so I’m currently playing by the book while I feel out what flexibility will be allowed. 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Officially? No. Under my last 3 supervisors, yes. Under my current (new-to-me) supervisor? Not sure yet, she doesn’t seem to be watching the clock but I think if she’s aware I’m late there’s an expectation I make it up. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Yes. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? No. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? No. 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? Officially, yes. Under my last 3 supervisors, explicitly no. (The first time I requested 2 hours for a doctor’s appointment under my last supervisor, she was like, “Don’t be silly, we’re all adults here.”) Under this (new-to-me) supervisor, I did not get the “don’t bother using PTO for a quick appointment” response the first time I requested 2 hours for an appointment, so I think yes.
Admin of Sys* January 17, 2025 at 12:39 pm We’re pretty flexible – any appointments under 2 hr can just be ignored on the timecard (though we’re supposed to update the shared calendar to tell folks we’re afk). There’s a kind of assumed flex time, but it’s not tracked at all, and folks often drop out early or come in late or run longer errands over lunch and the such. That said, we’re also all on call about once a month, during which we’re supposed be within about 10 minutes of a computer with the ability to connect ack to work, 24/7, including the weekend. And we get paged in the middle of the night occasionally, so the flex in question is considered in trade for the most recent 2am call and such.
EA* January 17, 2025 at 12:52 pm 1. I am currently remote, but yes, I can log in late and not officially make up the time. 2. No, officially we don’t replace extra time worked with extra time off, but eventually we’ll get flexibility. It’s basically a tradeoff of number one; sometimes you’ll work more in a busy season, sometimes less. 3. We don’t track flex/comp time. 4. No 5. No
Manders* January 17, 2025 at 1:05 pm I manage my own time as I see fit. I work at a public university as a researcher and am salaried. I have also worked for my boss for 25+ years, so he trusts me completely. My job can be variable – there are times when I have to come in every day to check mice, or twice a day to check mice, for 2 weeks straight. So when I have a chance to leave a little early I’ve learned to take it. Should I be tracking everything to the minute? Perhaps. But I put in enough OT that I’ve learned to live with a bit of give- and- take. If I’m ill and unable to work I obviously take my PTO for that, and we have very generous vacation time that I take as well. My boss is the opposite of a micromanager, so he really doesn’t care when I do things, he trusts that I work hard and get everything done.
Parakeet* January 17, 2025 at 1:06 pm 1) I have to bill time to specific grants or other funding pools. It’s approximate, not law firm levels of precise. So I do need to put in the time at some point during the half-month pay period (doesn’t matter which days during that period). But my job, including what’s covered under the grants, is pretty broad. 2) Yes. I can come in “late” whenever as long as I’m not missing meetings frequently/too hard to schedule meetings with, as we don’t have set hours. But if I have to work at a truly unusual time (whether that’s late or early, both of which are usually related to time zone differences), my boss actively encourages me to be extra flexible with my time in the next couple of days. Occasionally I even get comp time from it. 3) No. 4) Not closely. Like I said above, I have to bill by the quarter hour to specific funding pools. I also have to put a high-level summary of what I did with each funding pool on my timesheet, but the only one I really have to line item is private funding. For a grant, my summary on the half-month timesheet might be something like “Research and capacity-building, webinar prep, writing.” 5) No, I can flex my time as I please as long as I’m not a pain to schedule meetings with and get my work done. And I do (both flex my time extensively and get my work done lol).
Seamyst* January 17, 2025 at 1:51 pm Disclaimer: I work in higher education on the staff side. I’m expected to be generally available during the workday (unless I’m on PTO), but if I need to go to an appointment or run a quick errand during the day, that’s fine and I don’t have to get permission or even make up the time. My university’s policy is that for exempt staff, we can only request time off in half- or full-day increments, so if my appointment takes 1.5 hours, I don’t need to put in for that time off.
Throwaway Account* January 17, 2025 at 2:46 pm I am also in higher ed and on the staff side! We are now being required to track time very tightly and are also being told our supervisor is being “kind” about this bc comp/flex time is not a thing here. If we are 30 minutes late, we must take PTO or sick leave, but he is “letting” us flex our time. Supervisor is a former coworker who got promoted (Peter Principle). It is kind of exhausting!
Being Exempt is a Scam* January 17, 2025 at 4:16 pm I think this is becoming A Thing in academia (I’m in higher ed too) and I do not like it. We are not children, we can manage our time. Getting my PTO balance eaten up in hour increments for doctor appointments and health screenings is absolutely bonkers and leaves me kind of just hating my job more than anything.
Bast* January 17, 2025 at 2:05 pm 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? This depends how late and the reason. We don’t do “make up” hours here though. If it is longer than a couple of hours, they will tell you to just use PTO/WFH depending on the reason. For example, if my car won’t start, I could elect to just WFH rather than attempting to come into the office or if I really wanted to I could use PTO. If I have a dentist appointment or similar, same deal. If it’s because I want to get my hair done or get a massage or something, that wouldn’t fly. 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Staying late isn’t really a thing here, unless there’s a huge trial coming up, which frankly, does not happen often these days. Things settle much faster than they used to. Most days the boss locks up the office at 5, and if you’re still here, he will tell you to go home. 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? Perhaps if there were a really big trial coming up, but not typically. My boss is really big on not working crazy hours, and making sure that people take a proper lunch/not do OT. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? I have to log my billable hours to bill clients, but I do not need to keep track of every second of every day. 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? Not typically. You can’t cut out early every Friday just because it’s Friday, but if you have a medical appointment, plane to catch, etc., it wouldn’t be an issue.
Green Goose* January 17, 2025 at 2:09 pm I’ve been exempt for the last ten years with about five different bosses, and I think the answer to all the questions are manager-specific. My first exempt-role boss was a total micromanager and I was expected to always work 9-5, and then more hours if my work was not done. That job was hard because it was work that needed to be done by two people but my boss just had me do it all, so I worked late often and many weekends. I had to tell him about Dr appointments and make up that time. However, this was not the case with my other bosses. I usually wait a couple of months before I start asking for flex time or just suss out the situation. It’s always good to check in before you do something to see if it is something that will bother that person. I think I only asked for for some unofficial PTO when my team was in our busy season and we were regularly working 60 hour weeks, which included the week-long summer break, so we were able to negotiate a week off at a later time.
JFC* January 17, 2025 at 2:24 pm I set my own hours, although most of the time they align with 9-5 business hours because I work with a lot of outside clients who follow that schedule, plus the internal colleagues I work with are normally working those hours as well. I work way more than 40 hours a week most of the time, at least an extra hour in the evenings most days and at least part of a weekend day. I’ve had to work both weekend days the last few months because of the volume of work. So, yes, I would say I am eating extra hours without taking comp time. That’s the same reason I don’t use PTO for taking an hour here and there. I only take PTO if I have something that’s going to take me away from work for at least a half-day. There are no requirements to track my time. However, it’s pretty obvious through my visible work output how much I’m getting done. There would definitely be internal and external complaints if I wasn’t getting clients and colleagues the materials they need in a timely fashion, and I think if that happened, I’d get more questions about how I use my time. Absent of that, the bosses are fine letting me do my own thing.
Damn it, Hardison!* January 17, 2025 at 2:39 pm I have a lot of flexibility as long as the work is getting done and I am reasonably available. No one is tracking my time or whether I’m in my seat during the day. I’m not expected to make up time unless it’s more than an hour or two, and even that is at my discretion. I work across several time zones (routinely both US coasts, different European zones and China) in a day so it’s not unusual for me to dip out in my afternoon for an hour, knowing that I have a couple of hours of calls that night or I started very early to connect with colleagues in Europe. I’m currently an individual contributor but will be managing an employee later this year, so things might change a bit when that starts.
Paris Geller* January 17, 2025 at 2:40 pm I am salaried exempt, but my job is partially coverage-based. 1. Yes, to a certain extent, but I have to inform my supervisor ahead of time to make sure there is coverage. Also if it’s more than half the day, I have to take PTO 2. Theoretically, yes, but I don’t have to stay late. I think I stayed an extra half hour once when we were short staff and I came in a half hour later the next day, but that’s happened once in four years. 3. No 4. No 5. No
saskia* January 17, 2025 at 3:06 pm 1. Yes 2. Sure, though I wouldn’t typically ask to do this, as I manage my own time, and I’m sure I’ll make it up with the flexibility previously described without having to make a whole big thing out of it. 3. Required? No. Do I? Sometimes. I do what I need to do in order to get my work done. 4. No 5. No
Being Exempt is a Scam* January 17, 2025 at 4:08 pm Oh this is right in my wheelhouse right now because I’m in a lather about my POW just randomly deciding to take away our exempt time off code and is nickel-and-diming our PTO away if we dare do something irresponsible during the work week like… go to the doctor or get a mammogram. (Yay all the drawbacks of being exempt and none of the benefits! Just suddenly! POOF!) Right now my answer to all of this is just a sarcastic laugh. Places may say you’re exempt because you’re a capital-P Professional, but they treat you like an inmate chained to a desk and beholden to the 40 hours AT MINIMUM rule at all times. I used to like this job but this schedule-policing, Big Brother Is Watching practice has 100% poisoned me against it. Never accept an exempt position. They’ll just exploit you.
WFH4VR* January 17, 2025 at 4:34 pm Our “official” length of time where you need to use sick or vacation time is four hours. Anything under four hours isn’t recorded, and you just make up whatever work you missed. We’re treated like adults who can manage our own time, thank goodness.
JB* January 17, 2025 at 5:02 pm 1. Yes. 2. No. (I mean I probably could on a rare occasion if I felt strongly about it, and if – importantly – it was definitely not my own choice to stay late, but those circumstances are very rare. I’m basically responsible for arranging my own workload such that I DON’T have to stay late, and when I end up staying late to finish things that’s because it’s how I’ve chosen to manage my time.) 3. No. It honestly doesn’t really come up in this role but if I were REQUIRED to work extra hours, I expect I could easily negotiate comp time for it. 4. No. I am only required to make sure I am available to the people I work with during normal business hours, OR to make sure they know if I’m going to be out of contact for some significant amount of time. 5. It wouldn’t be possible for me to do so. Our PTO for exempt employees can only be taken in half-day or full-day increments.
Ann Perkins* January 17, 2025 at 5:14 pm 1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Yes 2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Yes though I never stay late 3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? I’m generally not required to work extra hours. Our department head tells us explicitly that if we’ve worked 40 hours ish and there’s still work to do, then deadlines can be pushed back or we’ll figure something out but he doesn’t want people working more than 40 hours as a general rule. 4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? No 5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? No. My team generally doesn’t take PTO unless it’s going to be about a half day or more. That being said, we get enough PTO that sometimes it’s nice to just take the time anyway.
Flexible* January 17, 2025 at 5:26 pm I negotiate flexibility as a job requirement because of medical needs, so as long as I don’t miss meetings and put in at least 40 hours/week I can work it whenever.
fhqwhgads* January 17, 2025 at 9:44 pm 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. I don’t understand the question. 4. No time tracking at all 5. No, only asked to use PTO if we’ll be out more than 5 hours in one day. And even so, if your work is done, probably nobody’s asking/checking.
AlsoADHD* January 18, 2025 at 11:58 pm So I am fully remote as well (no “coming in” unless I’m at a rare offsite event etc). 1. Yes, I can flex my time to start late (usually—I would try to make any important meetings etc). 2. Due to time zones, I sometimes have to work late for a particular meeting. I can always shift time elsewhere. I often work through lunch or whatever but also run errands as needed and leave early Friday if stuff is all done (sometimes, not always). 3. No, though I don’t clock at all. 4. I’m salaried fully, no tracking. I have expected work hours and update them as needed (so people know when I’m generally available). If I’m doing a big flex, I’ll add it to my calendar for awareness + tell my boss and reports. 5. No, but I also have unlimited PTO (a good version with a range and minimums to take—over a month a year plus holidays, shut downs, and never counting sick time or errands) and don’t really track that either except marking myself as OoO on calendar and telling my team (boss has never asked me to move it but I’m also conscious of good vs bad timing).
Violet* January 17, 2025 at 11:09 am Any advice on dropping to part-time as a parent and the career impact? I (female) just had a baby and my husband is trying to make partner at a law firm. I would really like to work less than full time for the next few years to keep everything running smoothly at home and spend time with my baby. However, I’m currently a an associate director level, and I haven’t seen any opportunities to stay at this level part time. I would therefore be looking for a senior analyst position, a step down. I would love to hear from other parents who have taken a step down and any advice or insight into how it has impacted your career long term!
Zephy* January 17, 2025 at 11:47 am NB I am not a parent, but I have read accounts from parents who tried to do this that it doesn’t really work all that well. Instead of reducing your workload and freeing up time to spend with your baby, you end up having to cram all your work into half the time, and all the time you previously had to rest and recharge from work pre-baby is now claimed by baby. Unless your job can actually be done effectively in ~20hrs/week without grinding yourself to a nub, you end up half-assing both work and parenting and those two halves don’t combine into one whole-assed anything, like how 2-in-1 shampoo and conditioner isn’t nearly as effective at either of those things.
Hlao-roo* January 17, 2025 at 12:52 pm I once worked at a place where one of my coworkers had an 80% schedule (he worked 4 days per week instead of 5) and his spouse (who worked at a different place) also had an 80% schedule, so they only had to pay for 3 days of daycare per week for their child. From the outside, it seemed to work fairly well for my coworker. Some important qualifiers though are that (1) this was an organization that was supportive of part-time work arrangements and (2) he had a supportive boss, who was good at expecting him to do 32 hrs worth of work per week, instead of expecting 40 hrs worth of work in a 32 hr week. I’m not at that workplace anymore, so I don’t know if the part-time schedule affected his career growth. I think dropping to part time in the early parenting years can be done successfully, but I think that it’s uncommon and really depends on having good support from the organization in general and your direct manager in particular.
Violet* January 17, 2025 at 4:43 pm Thanks-I appreciate this take! I would be looking for a new position that is dedicated to part time; there are a couple of other people I know who has a part time analyst position similar to what I would be looking at, but they made a lateral move, not a step back. I most definitely could not fit my job into 20 hours per week; I can’t even fit it into 40-45 now
Harlowe* January 17, 2025 at 12:46 pm Not a parent, but the new terminology for this is “fractional” roles. Try looking for that, I’ve definitely seen them at director level.
Weaponized Pumpkin* January 17, 2025 at 7:52 pm I’ve been seeing it for a while and “fractional” cracks me up — we’ve rebranded “part time” for high-level roles.
JR17* January 18, 2025 at 12:47 pm I think fractional usually means that it’s part-time for the company (often because they’re too small or early stage to need or be able to afford full-time) but still full-time for the person or, often, the firm doing the job because they take on multiple fractional jobs. But certainly it’s a good option for someone like OP looking for part-time work!
spcepickle* January 17, 2025 at 12:56 pm I am also not a parent, but I do both manage parents and have talked through this with many friends. Your FMLA can be used to help you drop to part time for 6 months or so depending on how much time you took for the birth, you get 12 weeks in a 12 month period, and you can use it anytime within the baby’s first year (this assume you are in the US and your company is big enough to be covered by FMLA). My second in command did this for his baby – took the first month off and then before the babies first birthday he did 4 months of half time using a mix of sick, vacation, and FMLA. It was a challenge for both of us to be really protect his time and make sure he was only doing 20 hours a week. It also meant that he had none of the downtime at work, so no socializing or water cooler talks, because he was trying to get so much into 20 hours. Have you asked your current firm about going half time or even 3/4 time. We have had lots of success letting people go to 6 hours a day, it is a good balance for many parents making school / day care pick up easier while still keeping them fully engaged at work. One of my friends who I graduated college with took several years off because she had 4 kids. The ramp back up has been a challenge, both in finding work and convincing people to hire her instead of a brand new college grad. It helped that she had been intentional about staying in contact with her work contacts and keeping up with the developments in her field. The truth is that with her aeronautical engineer degree she is going to be topping her career off at a mid level contributor, the trade off was worth it for her. But it was totally a trade of time with her kids vs challenge and promotion in her career. Her husband is also a very top level manager – so her at home also let him succeed in his career by taking most of the home tasks off his plate. I had a friend go half time teaching while her kids were little, till her husband had an affair and left her with the two kids and no housing (they were living in a house tied to his job). She had to scramble to get back up to full time and figure out her finances, which took a huge hit. I know nobody plans on losing their spouse but I would encourage you to think about if something happens to your household’s main source of income. How would you care for yourself and your kiddo, what kind of safe measure can you put in place now? Also take sometime to think about what you want your career to look like in 5 or 10 years and how a step back now will affect that?
HoundMom* January 17, 2025 at 1:19 pm I went very part-time when I had several children in consecutive years. The advice given to me by a colleague who had done something earlier in her career was to negotiate number of clients or the actual job responsibilities. if you negotiate time or hours there is often an unspoken expectation that there will be overtime. I found that worked well for the decade I was part time.
Generic Name* January 17, 2025 at 1:45 pm This. A woman I worked with when I was a consultant worked part time, so that meant she only worked 40 hours.
Banana Pyjamas* January 17, 2025 at 5:11 pm I just want to bump 6 hour days! They are amazing! We had them during covid and it’s incredible how much more energy I had and how much easier it was to balance life.
Banana Pyjamas* January 17, 2025 at 5:12 pm Oops, I meant to mention I was pregnant and parenting a toddler at the time. Seriously ask about 6 hour days.
Violet* January 17, 2025 at 5:16 pm Thanks! We have a solid marriage and life insurance, but like you mentioned, you can never be too cautious. I guess I was thinking that part time would be easier to ramp back up to full time if I ever needed it than if I were coming from not working. I do like my career, but my husband has way more earning potential and we just can’t both work at our current (demanding) positions while still being good parents
Generic Name* January 17, 2025 at 1:44 pm I was not at an associate director role (it was more a “staff scientist” level), but I went part time for some years when my son was young. I’d check with daycare first to see what they consider “part time” and if they even allow part time. You may find that you end up having to pay for daycare full time in order to keep their slot, even if you don’t use all 5 days. When I worked part time, I found it more stressful than working full time. I crammed all my work into 4 hours and then rushed to pick up my child from school. In the summer, I was in 3 or 4 days at the office, but we were still paying full time daycare because I think part time was 2 days or something. I felt like I was constantly pulled in multiple directions. If I was working, I felt guilty I wasn’t spending time with my child. If I was home with my child, I felt guilty that I was letting the folks at work down. Stuff at home was more stressful because I did a larger share of the housework (you know, because I wasn’t “working full time”). When I went back to work full time, it was less stress because when I was at work, I was at work (and I wasn’t thinking I should leave and hang out with son). I also had the funds to hire a cleaner.
Anonymato* January 17, 2025 at 2:55 pm I have done it and agree on the guilt. Definitely it has felt like burning the candle at both ends trying to prove “still useful “ at work and do a good job as a parent. However, I suspect that probably stands for those parents working full time too. I changed my job responsibilities somewhat to avoid travel and limit people I need to supervise and have more flexibility in terms of when I get my work done (like, around midnight LOL). It meant I was not considered for promotions and was often left out of pertinent discussions. It was hard at times not to go over 20 or 25 hours/week. Having a supervisor who trusts me, understands my situation and is ready to defend me has been super helpful. On the plus side, I got to hang out with my child and my spouse was able to both work and get his degree. I am still part-time 10 years later and generally considered a valued member of the team. Honestly, I am not that ambitious so this works for me (I am grateful to be able to do this) but financially, career-wise and time-wise it has definitely impacted me. Also, we were able to do this because spouse’s job provides family insurance which doesn’t come with my part-time job (and yes, neither do any other benefits), Good luck deciding!
Anonymato* January 17, 2025 at 3:12 pm P.S. To clarify, I didn’t have/couldn’t afford childcare so my work time was around baby’s schedule and my spouse time taking care of the baby. Also, the limited people I’ve supervised have been very flexible and capable.
Banana Pyjamas* January 17, 2025 at 5:19 pm Generic Name makes an important point about daycare. In our area the only way to have flexibility around daycare is to use a home daycare. We only needed daycare from 11 am – 5/5:30 pm, but there was an expectation to have the kids there between 7-8 am if we used a daycare center. Also most daycare centers here are phasing out part time, but the ones that have it have set days usually M-W-F or T-R. We used a home daycare because the had a daily rate and we were able to go W-R-F 11-5:30.
EMP* January 17, 2025 at 3:56 pm New-ish parent working full time, but who thought a lot about stepping back. I have a few examples of it being done really successfully – one friend is an independent contractor (in software), so she sets her hours and bills for what she does, and works 20hrs/week. She’s been doing this for 3-4 years and loves it. I don’t think she’s seen negative impacts. One is a doctor, she has set hours, and does work more than what she bills for because of the nature of the job, but it’s proportionally less than full time (I think she is on the books at ~60% time, and works ~30 hrs a week, but full time she’d be putting in ~60 hrs). I have a neighbor (also female) who is 80% time (M-Th), and says she feels like she’s felt some of the “100% of the work for 80% of the pay”. I think this is the biggest pitfall of part time. So far though, no one I’ve talked to has really felt that their long term opportunities are impacted in any meaningful way.
Violet* January 17, 2025 at 4:47 pm Thank you-these are very helpful examples. The independent contractor situation is close to what I am imagining.
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 4:20 pm My mom did this. A couple factors to consider: * Between her and my dad they had enough money to get a nanny on days she was working, which meant she didn’t have to worry as much about either childcare or housekeeping. * She works in healthcare and the shifts there are a little weird (I think full time is 14 12-hour shifts per month, rather than a standard 8-5), so she could reduce the number of *days* to 2 days a week. * She had a spine of steel regarding not being given the bad rotations. When she was pregnant her director tried to put her on the ‘easy’ rotation. She said heck to the no, I’m staying on my current high-skill rotation until I leave to have this baby. * She’s also always been *extremely* self-driven, keeping up with new technology and skills. * She still ended up having a career impact, as measured by her college yearmates. A ton of her classmates ended up as very high-powered director or teaching jobs; she says that if she’d put in the time she’d probably have ended up somewhere similar. * That said, she doesn’t *like* very high-powered work so the career impact didn’t actually bother her. She prefers working in a less prestigious place, kids or no kids.
Violet* January 17, 2025 at 5:13 pm Thank you! We also would be hiring a nanny, so would not have to worry about child care or housework during work time. I do want a high impact career, but I’m just struggling with if I could still make that happen in the future if I stepped back for five to seven years now
Not that Leia* January 17, 2025 at 6:12 pm I made a nominally lateral move when my son was born to a smaller, much closer, more flexible, less busy, and (honestly) less interesting firm, but with a similar title. I stayed “full-time” but the new role was an absolute max-40 hour situation vs previous job which regularly needed overtime. I stayed there for three years (through birth of my second child) and when I felt I finally had capacity to do more, I was well positioned to move on WITHOUT stepping backwards, or having to explain a resume gap. It worked for me.
Part time lab tech* January 17, 2025 at 11:31 pm I suggest thinking about what both of you want your life with toddlers and then primary school age children should look like. I never wanted to stop working altogether past baby’s 1st 9 to 18 months and yet that is what ended up happening. I stopped 6 weeks before my first was born (2010) and had only odd part time contacts until this contract started in 2022. This enabled my husband to relocate for engineering projects and advance in his career. Mine went backwards due to lack of flexibility in childcare because he worked long hours and no family support, plus moving to regional centres when most laboratories are in metropolitan centres. The biggest mistake I made was undervaluing my career change to follow him in his new job 2 hrs away. The one career regret I have is leaving the job I had at that time but I couldn’t know I’d get pregnant straight after resigning either. (If I’d known and stayed, I would have been entitled to maternity leave, possibly been able to work part time while my first was young, and likely had a much shorter career gap). To make matters worse, the job I changed to was…a learning experience.
JR17* January 18, 2025 at 12:57 pm I did this. For about five years after my first was born, I worked as an independent consultant. A lot of the work I did was as a subcontractor to a consulting firm that I’d worked for 5+ years earlier. I billed hourly and would negotiate the number of hours per week I was available, and they’d staff the project accordingly. It was fantastic as an alternative to staying home full-time. It kept my resume, network, and work-brain active, and I completely felt like I was getting the time I wanted with my kids. (I worked about 10 hours/week when my kids were really little, going up to about 20-25 as they got older.) As an alternative to working full-time, it was ok. It definitely kept me in the game, but it felt like treading water – I didn’t feel like I was making career progress, which was stressful for me and my particular career goals. That said, it positioned me well for the right job that came along a few years later. Which was also part-time and was designed as part-time – my predecessor was, as well. This one has had more of the challenges outlined above, with feeling like I’m working too relative to my family goals and not enough relative to my career goals. But that pressure is mostly internal, not from the organization, so that’s a know-yourself problem.
Tradd* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am Let’s hear the weirdest picky picky thing a customer/vendor has gotten their knickers in a twist over. My favorite: customer flipped when I used a forward slash (/) instead of a backwards slash (\) when putting their reference number on customs clearance paperwork (I’m a customs broker). They’re the only customer I’ve ever had who even cared if we exactly reproduced the special characters (slashes, dash, etc.) in their reference numbers. I hadn’t even noticed the difference.
Angstrom* January 17, 2025 at 11:48 am That almost makes sense if they’re used to dealing with URLs or other machine-read numbers where the special characters DO make a difference.
dulcinea47* January 17, 2025 at 11:51 am I wouldn’t flip, but I’d be asking you if it mattered, b/c there are a lot of situations where stuff like that *does* matter. (it matters to computers.)
Tradd* January 17, 2025 at 11:55 am No, it doesn’t make a difference. This is the same customer (overseas), who didn’t like the way the gov’t mandated customs form shows info and wanted to change it!
Hastily Blessed Fritos* January 17, 2025 at 11:56 am I’m in tech, so I would DEFINITELY want reference numbers to match exactly. Especially given how picky government systems can be. The intersection of the two? Damn straight I’d be insisting you pay attention and get things right. If you can’t tell the difference between / and \ , can you tell the difference between zero and the letter O?,
Harlowe* January 17, 2025 at 12:49 pm Agreed. I work with regulatory bodies, and this is exactly the type of carelessness that gets us scrutinized and/or audited.
WellRed* January 17, 2025 at 12:01 pm They didn’t get too in a twist but ages ago we had a marketing person insist we could not crop a headshot of someone per our style (we’re a newspaper). The person whose headshot it actually was? Couldn’t have cared less.
Procedure Publisher* January 17, 2025 at 12:07 pm Job titles being capitalized when not following a person’s name. Job titles should not be capitalized for the most part.
Irish Teacher.* January 17, 2025 at 12:29 pm It was probably reasonable that this customer complained but their reaction was way over the top. It was back when I was in between my degree and post-grad and working retail for a year. I had just started and keyed in the wrong code and thereby overcharged somebody by…like 50c or something, definitely less than a euro. He threatened to call the police and his lawyer if I didn’t refund him (which I had been going to do anyway; I just had to wait for a manager to sign off on it).
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 12:56 pm I don’t know if this is picky, but we imported pistachios once and they had to get inspected by the USDA for aflatoxin testing. This is standard and non-negotiable. They were mad when the govt wouldn’t accept their testing certificates from overseas (like we told them they wouldn’t…) and then threatened to sue us AND the USDA because the USDA took “too many” of their pistachios for testing. Good luck pal, talk to you never. (our lawyer got a good laugh)
Tradd* January 17, 2025 at 1:13 pm Yeah, I have food importers all the time who think they can get around regulations or their product should be released.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 1:35 pm I spent an entire Saturday aligning checkboxes by hand, pixel by pixel, in a shitty PDF-editor. ONE was a tiny bit off and the client freaked out. Fun times.
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 4:22 pm I was this person on the other side, except I didn’t freak out. Got a pdf form from our HR and all the checkboxes were wonky. One didn’t work at all. I reached out to our HR person and asked if it would be ok with them if I redid the fillable checkboxes because they were driving me crazy. They gave me the OK, luckily!
I can see you* January 17, 2025 at 5:56 pm I mean when it’s something like that, I could see wanting EVERYTHING just so. Who’s to say that a forward slash wouldn’t cause a software program to interpret the numbers in a totally different way than a backwards slash, or vice versa??? And for something like international shipping, customs brokerage, etc, I’d be going over everything with a fine tooth comb.
Esceviche* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am Hi all! I’d love some advice on defining for myself how to “level up” in my career when there is no clear ladder or specific progression in my current role to a more senior level. I imagine for me to advance in my career, move up the ladder and earn more, that I might need to leave my current job and get a better paying job. What that better paying job looks like, and what aspects of it are “next level” for me to aspire to, I am unclear. I work in nonprofit digital communications as a midlevel manager. One way I’ve read folks in my industry define leveling up is through metrics: have what I done for the organization brought in larger numbers and KPIs? Another way I’ve seen is if I brought on more efficiency and order out of chaos and as a result, streamlined processes that saved a lot of time and money for the org? Seeking some feedback and advice on how to think this through.
HR Exec Popping In* January 17, 2025 at 11:45 am Typically, you need to change jobs to advance. There are some roles that expand in responsibilities that result in a promotion in place but that is not the norm. I would recommend talking to people in roles that you aspire to. So if you are a Manager, find some people who are Directors doing what you do and ask them about their job and how they got to that level.
DEEngineer* January 17, 2025 at 2:38 pm Totally agree with this. Also, let your connections know that you’re looking. I was in a similar position having reached the highest position in my function at my location and unwilling to relocate. I found a position that was a slight step back with better pay at a new org, but they are larger with more opportunities and I’m now in a more advanced position.
WantonSeedStitch* January 17, 2025 at 12:22 pm So, what does your current boss’s role look like? If you were to apply for an analogous position at another org, what would be the difference between your current role and that one? For example, I’m in prospect research in the fundraising operation at a university. I am a director, and as high as you can really go in my specific function. My boss oversees my team and two other teams whose functions are related, but not identical, to my team’s function. To “level up,” I would either have to wait until my current boss leaves and apply for her position (she’s actually trying to train me up for this eventuality) or apply for a position similar to hers at another organization. I would likely have to show that I have an in-depth understanding of the other functions that would fall under that position, and demonstrate a history of working with them.
colorguard* January 17, 2025 at 2:05 pm One thing to think through too, since you mention digital communications: It’s possible the next logical job doesn’t exist yet since things change so rapidly. I’m in a similar industry/role, and the last job/promotion I got where the job existed before I was hired was in 2002. So in addition to the things you’re already thinking about, you might also consider: – What skills are becoming more necessary, and can you get them/do you want to do that? – If there are opportunities to test things out or experiment, can you raise your hand for those? – Are there places you want to work, and are they approaching things differently than where you are now? That’s a different kind of leveling up than moving up an existing ladder, but sometimes one doesn’t exist (or doesn’t exist yet) and it’s more of a diagonal move, or a lateral onto a different board. Beyond that, I find it’s helpful to just keep my eyes open for opportunities, internal and external, and look for stretch opportunities. (If nothing else, sometimes they confirm that you don’t want to go a particular route.)
Grrr* January 17, 2025 at 11:10 am Ugh. I had an interview that went pretty well. I wouldn’t be thrilled to take the job – it’s extremely lateral, including compensation – but I would be *willing* to take it because my current job is very unstable, and I’m in DC looking for remote work where I feel there could be a local mini-recession coming. However, after the interview I noticed that the salary range has a caveat buried in the bottom (not where the range is posted, of course) that says the range is “the maximum end of the range accounts for longevity in the role.” Meaning, they’re unlikely to offer me anything more than, what, half, or two-thirds of the range. Why post that range if you have no intention of paying anything like that??
The Other Evil HR Lady* January 17, 2025 at 11:47 am Honestly? To make you apply and get a larger pool of applicants. In DC you have to post the salary (right? Correct me if I’m wrong), and you attract more applicants with the top of the range, even if they’re not as experienced as the people they have in-house. They get more applicants from a range of experience, and they can then decide if they’re willing to hire someone that needs minimal training or more training, depending on who they end up talking to. Does this waste applicants’ time? Maybe, but maybe not. If they find a superstar, they may just go in that direction and offer the top of their range. But if all they get is less experienced applicants, well… they added the disclaimer for a reason.
My Brain is Exploding* January 17, 2025 at 12:00 pm Could that mean if you have years of experience in that role already, just not with that company, that you could get the higher end of the range?
Alex* January 17, 2025 at 2:40 pm I think for “salary range,” a lot of employers post the entire range for the role for everyone, not just the range that they would hire someone at. Unless it says “hiring range,” I usually take it to mean that people in this role have a salary of between x and y, and it is likely that new hires are closer to x. Both places I’ve worked at in the past 15 years do it this way.
Anon for this* January 17, 2025 at 11:11 am I’m looking for ideas on training that might cover these scenarios. Or just general advice on how to handle things like this. I work as a government inspector/compliance assistance person and sometimes we receive complaints from one member of the public about another member of the public (think: nuisance complaints like one neighbor complaining about another neighbor’s noise or smelly trash piles in the backyard). I’m pretty comfortable with taking the complaint and listening to the complainant’s concerns. The challenge comes when I have to call the subject of the complaint to tell them that someone complained about them. I haven’t found anything in our training library about this – all conflict de-escalation strategies I’ve found are geared towards responding to someone who is dissatisfied or angry. None of our training or resources cover having to call someone and initiate, guide, and conclude a difficult conversation which is a vastly different scenario than just.. letting a complaint vent.
JustMyImagination* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am Have you searched for training on having difficult conversations? My company offers that internally but I’m sure there are publicly available options.
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 11:59 am I don’t have any specific training to recommend, unfortunately, but I do have a book recommendation. Difficult Conversations, by Stone, Patton, & Heen is a solid communications book that’s been recommended to me by several folks in the medical field. They use it when dealing with patient conversations, which as you can imagine can be very challenging in a slightly different way.
Weaponized Pumpkin* January 17, 2025 at 7:56 pm I often recommend this book, and have given many copies to friends and colleagues. It’s not an exaggeration to say it changed my life.
Jay (no, the other one)* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm Crucial Conversations by Patterson, Grenny, McMillan, and Switzler. Will post the link in a reply to my own comment. Easy to read, practical, and has scenarios for almost every kind of difficult interaction including ones you have to initiate.
Jay (no, the other one)* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/0071771328
Hazel* January 17, 2025 at 3:37 pm You’re actually doing enforcement then aren’t you? Every municipality does bylaw enforcement for stuff like this. It’s not about guiding a difficult conversation or person; it’s about how to clearly state the requirement (eg the bylaw requires that all garbage be sorted out of sight) and give them a timeline to comply. It’s not about you or them, it’s about ‘this is the standard, here’s what needs needs to happen to meet it’. I’ve overheard bylaw officers at work. One was just really easygoing, nice guy, ‘hey so it seems you have construction materials on your porch, that’s not ok, can you clean it up by x date, yeah I’d be happy with that, no you can’t have 6 months …’. It’s worked well because he was both confident and nice, you couldn’t really hate him. If you don’t have standards in a written policy you need to get them. And you shouldn’t say who complained (in my town bylaw complaints are confidential). I wouldn’t do any of this kind of work based on reading a book. You need rules.
Hannah Lee* January 17, 2025 at 4:01 pm This may sound silly, but I find I’ve learned a lot about addressing issues and de-escalation from watching (on Animal Planet in the US) a tv show called “North Woods Law” where rangers from New Hampshire and Maine patrol parks and other locations and deal with problem resolutions re hunting, fishing, recreation and outdoor activities. They often deal with people having disputes over use of someone’s property or shared outdoor spaces like campgrounds, trails. And they often have to contact someone out of the blue to investigate and resolve issues. For example someone complains that their neighbor is attracting bears to the neighborhood by feeding them, so they have to go visit the supposed bear feeder and tell them to stop doing that. In general they rely a lot on re-iterating regulations and the reasons for the regulations, and having an attitude of “I don’t want to be hassling you about this but it needs to stop, and I’d rather not issue you a fine but I will if you don’t stop. ” And they are good at depersonalizing ie taking the focus off the person who complained and keeping it on the actual rules violation. (Yes Mr Hatfield, I know you and Mr McCoy have some history, but you’re not allowed to feed bears from your front porch) They are also very good at using judgement about when to deal with things on their own, one on one vs when it makes sense to have another officer with them or some other local authority, which is good to keep in mind when you’re initiating contact with someone over what might be a contentious issue.
fhqwhgads* January 18, 2025 at 10:29 am Omg, I love North Woods Law for exactly this reason. And that woman who kept feeding the bears from her front porch was just…incapable of comprehension. Ooof.
HSE Compliance* January 17, 2025 at 5:17 pm Hi! I used to do that kind of thing. The important part is being factual and neutral in your tone. I would look for trainings that are more HR-based – difficult conversations – not really de-escalation. Things like “how do I talk to an employee about personal hygiene” might get to the core of the strategy. Also – all you’re really doing is stating the facts. You’re not there to make it less ‘ouchie’, really. It’s important to be neutral/friendly in tone, stick to the regulation/code, and project confidence. IE – when I had a neighbor call in an open sewage complaint, and I showed up to investigate, the homeowner was at first *really* upset that some random county gov’t person was there. But I explained very factually and as lay-person as I could, with an air of “oh, this is no big deal, things happen, I just have to check it out, that’s my job!!”, and I have found that tends to bring down the energy to a more neutral level pretty quickly. Don’t say who submitted the complaint. And when in doubt, blame the regulation. Seriously. It’s really hard for someone to be mad at you when you apologetically tell them that you *have* to look at this, it’s a legal requirement, you know it can seem a little silly, but that’s the government, ya know?
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 6:52 pm Not sure what country you are in but in the US you may want to check with your local public safety academy. Sometimes code enforcement and similar can take some of the courses they offer and they may have de-escalation or IPC (interpersonal communication) courses that are more in line with what you do then the general ones
LilacliLy* January 17, 2025 at 11:14 am So my coworker and I were both approached to apply for a role in a company that’s in our industry, a direct competitor of our current company, but my coworker was originally offered an interview while I was put on the back burner. She asked me for advice and help to prepare for the interviews, and although she was eventually offered the role she turned it down because our company gave her a great counter-offer. For reference, she shared with me what they offered her, which was the lowest number on the job advertisement’s posted range. A month later, the company reached out to me to interview me and today they’ve offered me the job – but the salary they offered me is significantly below the one they offered my coworker. The pay would still be a bump from what I’m currently on, but my pay is vastly under what I should be at this point in my career anyway, so the number they shared with me was incredibly disappointing to say the least. I have more experience in our industry than my coworker too, so I was hopeful I’d be able to comfortably ask for the higher end of the advertised range, so the fact that the offer they’ve sent me is inferior to the one she got really puzzles me. They tried to argue that I have no experience delivering a project for X, even though I’ve had 3 years supporting and learning X, whereas my coworker has zero experience with X, so this explanation makes absolutely no sense to me. I’m still keen to take the offer because everything else at the company is better than my current one – benefits, career growth, etc. – but I feel like this is such a slap to the face. I feel incredibly disrespected and offended by their offer. Like the company has seen an opportunity to save a few measly thousands per year because they know that whatever they offer me would be better than what I have now so I’d be crazy not to accept it. I don’t know if I have any questions to anyone here, I just wanted to vent. I sent them a counter-offer, asking for a starting pay that was somewhere in the middle of the range they advertised, but they got back to me refusing to even entertain it and doubling down on the original offer. What kills me is that they’re right and I’ll be accepting the job, but I have this huge lump in my throat and fire in my veins. I’m both upset and incensed. I know how much I’m worth and it’s like no one is willing pay me accordingly and I am so tired.
Random Academic Cog* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am This is a sign of how they are going to treat you after you start, so even if it’s a bump, I would seriously reconsider. I probably would have aimed a bit lower – you know they were already going to offer a specific number to your colleague, so that was within budget. At this point, however, you might want to step back or go to your current employer and tell them you’ve been headhunted, but would prefer to stay where you are and see if you get any traction. Normally I wouldn’t advise that, but this case might be an exception.
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 11:52 am Yes, they really have shown that they don’t respect or trust me or my experience and they’ve shown me that they will absolutely lowball people whenever and however possible just because they can, just to save some change. What it kills me is knowing that the salary I asked for wasn’t even that much more than what they offered me and it was well within what they budgeted for the riole. I just wanted something within the posted salary range, like they offered my coworker. Just appalling. I definitely won’t go back to my employer because I don’t actually prefer staying here, but by god do I wish I had the balls and the means to tell this new job that if they can’t even offer me the minimum I know I’m worth that I won’t accept the offer. But they know I won’t, and they’re right, and it sucks.
Parenthesis Guy* January 17, 2025 at 12:10 pm Are you currently working with HR, recruiting or the hiring manager? If it’s HR/Recruiting, then their job is to disrespect you by giving you as little as possible. That’s just what they do. Taking it personally is a mistake. But it doesn’t mean your hiring manager doesn’t respect you. If it’s your hiring manager, then you should be worried. After you’re part of this team, your hiring manager will be working with you and will be recommending future raises. HR/recruiting will have less to do with it. So, you want to make sure that if you’re getting angry, at least understand who you need to be angry with.
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 12:23 pm It’s not the hiring manager thankfully, it’s HR and the CEO. And yeah you’re right, I think it’ll be good to get my foot in on the door, show good work and negotiate going forward. Hopefully I can quickly prove myself and work up to the number I had in mind.
Parenthesis Guy* January 17, 2025 at 1:30 pm The CEO is involved? That’s a red flag. It could be that he’ll change his tune after he sees you do good work and will treat people fairly, but could mean he’s looking to screw people. If he’s offering below the range minimum now, I don’t think he’s changing his tune. I still think you take it, but I’d keep looking even afterwords.
Workerbee* January 17, 2025 at 5:31 pm Stay firm on the salary you want. Walk away if you have to. I know, you want to leave your current job. If your current job has more / toxic red flags, okay, fine, jump. But if you CAN stick it out a little longer, I would. ‘Cause it sounds like you’ll be miserable at the new place. They already don’t respect you enough to pay you what you’re worth.
Parenthesis Guy* January 17, 2025 at 11:34 am Have you been looking at other opportunities? If no, why not? If yes, have those been working out for you. If it’s any consolation, this happens to many of us at one point or another. It sucks and is hard to get past in the moment. Best thing to do is accept the offer and use that fire to propel you to something bigger and better.
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 11:46 am Yes, I’ve been job searching since about April 2023 and I got very few responses overall unfortunately. I landed my current role in January 2024 and the offered pay was really subpar, but it was better than being unemployed, so I’ve continued applying to things here and there. I was really excited about this new role and now I feel like I’ve been punched in the gut. I’m worried about being labled a job hopper but in IT that’s not too uncommon, so my partner says I shouldn’t worry too much. IT companies understand that the only way most employees get raises is by being headhunted and switching jobs so they usually don’t particularly mind a job hopper, but I still wish I could stay somewhere long term! So frustrating :(
sdog* January 17, 2025 at 11:53 am To be honest, I’m not sure that I would accept. I get it that it’s better than where you are at, but it’s jut not a good sign as to how they’ll treat you once you’re there, and it can be so demoralizing to go from one shitty position to another. If you can hang out just a bit longer, I’d use this an opportunity to look like crazy at other opportunities so you can get out. Alternatively, can you do what your coworker did and leverage this for a counter offer with your current company (I’d say, I’d still start job hunting like crazy in the meantime).
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am My coworker only got a counter-offer because she’s been with them longer, but also it’s because, deep down, she didn’t want to leave, and the new job wouldn’t allow her to continue doing her side-gig that she loves. The only reason she’d take their offer was for the higher pay, which they matched. But they also told her not to tell me that they gave her a counter offer, because they’re not extending the same pay rise to me until June, IF they’re giving me one at all. In contrast, this company has better health insurance, more annual leave days, better flexibility, better internal processes and better career progression plans. AND the pay they offered is still higher than what I’m on. I’d be crazy not to take it, despite how bitter I am that it’s below what I know they should have offered me.
Analytical Tree Hugger* January 19, 2025 at 7:25 pm If New Company’s CEO is willing to dismiss your experience to (falsely and incorrectly) nickel-and-dime you on salary, I’d be highly concerned they’d try to jerk you around on these benefits. Such az, “Oh, yeah, those are only available with [random garbage hoops you’d need to jump through that make it not worthwhile].” It sounds like CurrentCompany isn’t great, but bearable, so I agree with others to stick it out and keep searching. Though it does seem to skirt the line of legality (not a lawyer) that they told your coworker not to discuss the counteroffer (assuming you’re in the US), so do try to move on.
Apple Studmuffin* January 17, 2025 at 4:20 pm Perhaps combine the advice above: word your declination so they understand you’d accept an offer at the bottom of their stated range. You know they have that money because they offered it to your colleague. It’s a game of chicken and when they realize their second choice might also slip through their fingers, presumably somebody will twig to being reasonable.
Watry* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am Wait, they offered your coworker the lowest number on the posted range, and then offered you less than that? So below the posted range? If that’s the case, I don’t think it would be unreasonable of you to point that out to them.
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 11:59 am I did point it out to them, but they’ve paid it no mind. I even spoke to the recruiter and he was also confused as to why they offered me below the posted range, but he’s external so his influence on the offer is little to none.
Yes And* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm A company that advertises a range and then offers below that range is not operating in good faith.
LilacLily* January 17, 2025 at 12:37 pm I agree. Even if this is the CEO’s sole decision (which it seems like it might be) a company ran by someone like that is not somewhere I want to stay long term at. I’m sad and dissapointed, but. Onwards and upwards. Hopefully the next one is it.
DotDotDot* January 17, 2025 at 12:41 pm And not willing to negotiate *at all*? Forget it. I think since you were their second choice, they think you should get less than they offered to their first choice. Which is twisted thinking, and doesn’t suggest a company that is going to be generous with raises. They are going to act like they are doing you a favour by allowing you to work for them.
Funko Pops Day* January 17, 2025 at 1:55 pm I’m curious if you’re in a state where there’s a legal requirement to post a range? I’m guessing there’s also some kind of rules about making offers outside that range if so…
Hannah Lee* January 17, 2025 at 4:40 pm Good point. Also, at this point LilacLily, even if there were a good explanation for why they did it, it’s left a bad impression on you. Accepting a job working for people who already have you questioning their judgement and feeling they are undervaluing you and unwilling to collaborate/negotiate with you on things doesn’t seem like a move that would set you up for success there. I’d cut my losses if I were you, decline their offer and focus on your job search. Don’t let this experience psyche you out, or get hung up on why they did what they did. Just figure “not a good fit” and move on.
Spiritbrand* January 17, 2025 at 12:50 pm I know you are set on taking this position; however, I think I would thank them for the offer, but tell them you would not be able to take the position for anything less than the bottom of their advertised range.
Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender* January 17, 2025 at 11:59 am I’d be upset too. Offering you less than what was advertised? Bonkers. Especially since they’ve already been rejected. You’re looking for a new job for a reason, but trading one stressor for another isn’t going to serve you well. Can you keep looking?
Jeneral* January 17, 2025 at 12:02 pm That’s really frustrating but I would definitely take it (unless you see other red flags). Imagine being at your current company 6 months from now still making the lower salary. Take it and keep working to position yourself to earn more on the role after that.
WellRed* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm Don’t take the job. You are already angry with them and starting on the wrong foot.
Harlowe* January 17, 2025 at 12:54 pm I wouldn’t take it. It’s a sign of poor treatment there, and you’d end up hopping ASAP anyway.
Cheap ass rolling with it* January 17, 2025 at 7:18 pm You can accept the job, and then keep looking. You’ll use the new job’s salary as base, to hop to another job with higher salary. You may have to stick out 6 months-1 year, but then hop again.
Shades* January 17, 2025 at 11:14 am Hypothetically, if you were a civil servant currently in the office, all alone on the top floor with access to 6 large windows that face the director’s office and a roll of painters tape on this Friday before inauguration, what would you write?
Dust Bunny* January 17, 2025 at 11:17 am I would at least not write anything that might target us for even more budget cuts.
RK* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am I TOLD YOU Best case, it’ll be applicable to whatever happens over the weekend Worst case, the idea the director would see this and wonder who, specifically, it was could be a little entertaining
Totally Minnie* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm As a civil servant, agreed. Writing a message on the windows is not a move that is likely to improve the agency’s ability to be successful under the new administration, and it might actually result in the agency being targeted for further cuts or for other kinds of poor treatment. Also, presumably other people in the agency know who is working in the office today. It would not be difficult for leadership to figure out who wrote the message and start disciplinary proceedings. The potential consequences are not worth the temporary catharsis. Put your energy into making a plan for how you and your agency can mitigate any upcoming harms and continue to try to do the best work you can do for the tax payers.
Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand* January 17, 2025 at 11:38 am FACTS MATTER. Or SCIENCE MATTERS. It’s a science agency. Too many political types like to twist reality and pretend they can make the facts say what’s politically advantageous for them. Facts matter, though. Plus, it’s not that controversial of a statement.
Insert Clever Name Here* January 17, 2025 at 12:15 pm In a similar theme: FACTS DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR APPROVAL.
Ginger Baker* January 17, 2025 at 12:22 pm SCIENCE! With a heart before or after or both. Non-controversial to anyone who, y’know, likes science, and Officially Not Political.
I Have RBF* January 17, 2025 at 3:42 pm “WE ❤ SCIENCE!” Positive message, boosts the mission of your agency.
tabloidtainted* January 17, 2025 at 2:29 pm Nothing. Stay professional. What are you going to write/say that isn’t going to sound wildly hypocritical? “Facts matter”? C’mon. This country is a mess.
Aggretsuko* January 17, 2025 at 11:14 am So I am totally new to my new industry (trainer) and there’s a lot of complicated stuff I have to learn when trying to figure out people’s job processes. My boss says I am “not getting it,” which is certainly true. However, I’m supposed to be learning by observing (which I haven’t gotten to do that much of, I’m limited on that), asking questions, and reading the (old) documentation. I literally am not permitted to do any hands-on work because they won’t let me have access to the database, and I mostly haven’t been allowed to borrow anyone else’s computer to try keying myself under their name. I tend to learn by doing–and our subject matter experts agree that learning by doing is what you need to do–but upper management won’t permit us access to the database. I’m making myself look bad because I’m being slow/dumb/not getting it, but also I can only learn so much and so well from observing and reading laborious, complicated procedures too. My subject matter experts would be fine with me watching them work, but I have to get permission from upper management and they haven’t granted it yet. Upper management is really overloaded right now and don’t really have the time either. My SME’s are great, but overloaded and have limited time to help me. My boss is great, but she’s only been at work about 3 days out of the last month between vacations and illnesses. She got on me a bit for not speaking up that I’m having trouble when she was in (reasonable), but also she hasn’t been around to talk to, so…. I don’t want to look like complete crap, or be more trouble than I’m worth, or be more extra labor on my boss or anyone else because I’m the weak link here. I’m reluctant to be all, “I’m the problem, it’s me!” and keep saying over and over again that I’m struggling and having problems, especially when she hasn’t been available or feeling really sick. Me being a conspicuous problem was an issue at my last job and even though my boss gets that and says it’s fine to speak up, I’m still reluctant to keep speaking up. Maybe I’m too disabled to learn, I don’t know–I’m worried about that too. Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions when what would actually help me isn’t really an option, feel free.
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 11:48 am Can you tell her that you need more hands on time, that you understand she’s been out of the office, and who should you ask for more resources and training or to ask questions when she’s out? (aka who’s her backup) If she points you to one or more of the SMEs, you can explain the trouble you’ve had scheduling with them and ask her if she could set up the meetings since people are less likely to try and get out of meetings set up by higher level people. If they still do, or if whoever you’re supposed to be working with isn’t accommodating, you need to let her know and find out how she wants it handled. She’ll either have the power to make them do it or have to find a different solution for you. But overall, I think you need to communicate your stumbling blocks on these things with her more proactively.
Zephy* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am When you say you have to get permission from upper management to watch your SMEs work, does that mean someone in upper management has to go in and update software permissions to allow you to do something? Or is it more of a situation where you could physically go watch a coworker fill out a TPS report or whatever with your human eyeballs right now, but ~technically~ Bob needs to sign a form or send an email to “grant” permission? “I can’t do the job I was hired for because I don’t have access to the database myself and I don’t have approval from TPTB to observe the people who do” is an extremely reasonable thing to keep bringing up with your boss. It is in fact her job to make sure you can do your job.
Goddess47* January 17, 2025 at 2:13 pm Depending on the software you’re working with, there should be a ‘training’ instance of the database available… both to use for training and for developers to be able to try updates out before putting them into production. You should be a bit more insistent in getting access to the training database so that you have experience in using it. But asking for access to the ‘training’ or ‘pre-production’ database/software may be just a matter of using the right words. Good luck!
fhqwhgads* January 18, 2025 at 10:37 am Well, it’s absolutely appropriate that they not let this happen been allowed to borrow anyone else’s computer to try keying myself under their name. But they absolutely should be letting you shadow more. I am an overloaded SME and the (far from perfect) way we’ve recently handled people needing training but no one having time is to do straight shadowing. Not teach how the thing, but do whatever work needs doing anyway, with the person watching. They can ask questions of course, and I’d answer, and it’s a little awkward to have someone watching you work, but it’s better than nothing, and slows progress down a lot less than a full on “stop doing work and train this person in hypotheticals”. So it might be worth suggesting something like that.
Hello* January 17, 2025 at 11:15 am I think work has finally broken my spirit and I plan on taking next week off as sick and then speaking to my GP. Have already referred myself to counselling. My job is so horribly dull and repetitive and its a bit of an achievement is giving myself permission to step away from it. Thanks for letting my vent! Boring jobs ca be worse than being overstretched!
PurplePeopleEater* January 17, 2025 at 11:50 am Good for you for recognizing the problem, taking time, and asking for help!
Name (Required)* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm Hope next week is good for you and you can return revitalized.
Insert Clever Name Here* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm I’ve been bored at work and run ragged, and I honestly hated being bored more. Sending you good vibes!
Throwaway Account* January 17, 2025 at 2:56 pm I’m with you on the stress of a boring job! I much prefer to be busy and multi-task. My brain hurts to be bored for 8 hours trapped at work. I’ve used my current work-related boredom to focus on things in my personal life. My “achievement” is in putting more of my energy into doing things I like. And that is how I realized that I don’t have a lot of hobbies or things I like to do! So I’m working on that. Result is, I’m less bothered by the boredom at work.
Possibly Overstepping* January 17, 2025 at 11:16 am We ha da new person start this week and I have been spending a decent amount of effort trying to coordinate with people to make sure he has what he needs to get up and running, usually going to find whoever it is can answer a question and get it answered. However, I’m not a manager or anyone with a lead title, I’m just a fellow developer. I started doing this because no one else was doing it, and I really hate when stuff falls through the cracks, but I’m also wondering if I’m overstepping. No one’s said anything negative about what I’m doing, and it apepars to have moved the process along faster. What signs should I look for to indicate that what I’m doing is too much and that I should back off and let someone else handle it? Obviously, if someone were to directly tell me this, I’d back off, but my company has a lot of people that are extremely conflict adverse.
Pocket Mouse* January 17, 2025 at 12:04 pm Not quite what you asked for, but you’re doing important stuff right now – document it! Better yet, have the new staff member take the lead in documenting it, with your support. The goal is to create a file listing all the things you assisted with/that the new person needed and was shown to be a gap in the existing system, so that the next person to start won’t face unnecessary delays (and you don’t have to be so involved).
Possibly Overstepping* January 17, 2025 at 1:16 pm Appropriately enough, I was already working on updating the documentation when we got a new hire, so I’ve been asking them what is and isn’t well documented so it can be improved!
Pocket Mouse* January 17, 2025 at 1:26 pm Seems to me you’re in an excellent position to continue as you have, then! It’s currently your responsibility to make sure new hires have what they need to get up and running – in the future, that’ll be just via documentation, but right now you’re doing a kindness by getting info you need to get anyway, and sharing it as it becomes available rather than making the new person wait for a finalized document.
WantonSeedStitch* January 17, 2025 at 12:28 pm I’d talk to your manager and say, “I noticed Mark seemed to need some help figuring out how to get the stuff he needs and who to go to in order to answer questions. It didn’t seem like anyone had been specifically assigned to do that for him, so I’ve been helping him out. I just want to make sure I’m not overstepping on this. Should I keep it up, or back off?” Worst case scenario, your boss says “Jane is supposed to be doing that. You should back off and let her handle it.” Best case, your boss says, “wow, thanks for taking the initiative! We really need to work on our onboarding process,” and then both 1) works on the onboarding process, and 2) takes your initiative and your collegial spirit into account at review time and rewards you for it.
Sloanicota* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am So I am job searching and I’m getting really paranoid that I’ve been at the “same level” too long. I’ve been a manager for more or less a decade. Does that seem weird to you? Manager is a broad term. In most jobs, I start off more junior, more and more senior level work gets dumped on me, I ask about promotion and am told it’s not a thing, so I start looking for a new job after 3-4 years. I can’t get a Director level role because they want experience, so I end up chasing the money and taking a higher-compensated Manager role again. How am I supposed to get up? Are hiring managers holding it against me that I haven’t “found a way” and end up not even wanting me as a manager anymore?
Busy Middle Manager* January 17, 2025 at 2:49 pm Probably depends on company, but when I hired for general business ops roles, we didn’t care about titles at all, so “no” would be the answer to your question if we cared or not about your “finding your way.” We experienced one too many people with a VP or Director titles who couldn’t answer basic questions about the industry, or conversely, only knew the basics but wasn’t really an expert in any given area or tasks. We’d focus on the line items of the resume and cover letter to decide who to interview
DEEngineer* January 17, 2025 at 2:51 pm Not weird! Companies have different titles for different things. Also, I think of Directors as a more strategy-focused role and Managers as more operationally-focused. You might be able to ask your org for development opportunities or classes to get more experience in that space.
Hannah Lee* January 17, 2025 at 4:51 pm What level do you want to be working at and why? Do you really want to be a director with what that entails? Or are you looking to advance up “the ladder” for the sake of advancing up the ladder? Once you figure that out, you’ll be able to better aim your job search at what you really want. It sounds like you’re looking for a position where you’re work is appreciated and valued, and you are rewarded for taking on and succeeding at more senior work over time. And that an increase in compensation is a nice to have, but not your primary motivation for wanting to move up. And since “manager” and “director” are both broad terms and used differently at different companies, where the distinction is in your mind, what you’re striving for vs what you’re already doing? Knowing that could help you target opportunities better and be able to speak to how you’ve advanced, your goals, next steps when you’re speaking to hiring managers. Also, know that having to change employers to get real advancement is very common for a lot of people.
Sloanicota* January 17, 2025 at 6:05 pm Lol I’d also be happy to change employers to get advancement, but the way my job searches are going, I’m changing employers to stay the same (but at least get more money). And now I’m hoping I haven’t missed my window to go for a more senior title someday. But you’re right, I really don’t care about being a director, I just care about being compensated fairly for all the work I end up doing.
SB* January 17, 2025 at 11:18 am Anyone have any experience navigating unconscious gender bias? (I mean, some of it may be deliberate, but I’m being generous) I’ve noticed a pattern that keeps causing problems for me. I work in a highly regulated industry, and I have a very specialized skill set. When I know something that men don’t, some of them get super defensive and angry with me. They act like I’m challenging them or being a jerk on purpose. I’m not. I am trying to find the least painful path forward for the team. I can’t make myself smaller and still do my job effectively. And if I point out, “hey, you’re being a little sexist right now. Are you aware?” …well, I may as well throw some mentos in Diet Coke and not expect an explosive mess. Any ideas? I’m in the US/midwest if you need cultural context.
SB* January 17, 2025 at 11:20 am Basically, I am so tired of being seen as “difficult” when I’m trying to help the team and fix something that someone else broke.
Cazaril* January 18, 2025 at 12:18 pm Sometimes it helps to remind them calmly that “we all are on the team and want to fix this broken thing.” Be very calm and matter of fact, cite facts and experience, but don’t back down or make yourself smaller. You’re looking for an air of calm confidence. Also, I agree with others who suggest looping your boss into the general pattern and looking for allies to call out the problem guys.
MissMaple* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am I have found the “stop talking and stare at them without smiling” til they take a second and back down to be very effective, personally.
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* January 17, 2025 at 11:40 am So to clarify – do they: believe that you don’t actually know a thing? believe that what you claim to know isn’t correct? something else? (I’m Midwest male FWIW) If their objection is to the truth of what you’re saying (with implicit bias), that’s marginally better than objecting to the general idea of a woman as their peer. The way to address the first one, at least for reasonable people, is to subtly or overtly reference your credentials. “We spent a lot of time when training for this certification to make sure we knew the difference between X and Y.” “Come on, Frank, I’ve been working with Z for 5 years. I know when these things need to be recalibrated.” I’ve had to use this as a defense against ageism and credentialism.
HR Exec Popping In* January 17, 2025 at 11:55 am For me, I work hard at staying calm and factual. I have no control over how someone else reacts and I realized a long time ago someone else’s reaction is more about them than me. So if challenged or questioned I simply calmly respond with the facts. I don’t defer or get defensive.
Data Slicentist* January 17, 2025 at 12:24 pm I wish I had ideas. I was lucky enough to be able to switch to another team within the org that had more women on it and had a track record of promoting women.
HannahS* January 17, 2025 at 1:19 pm Sigh. Yes. I’ve never tried calling it out. I imagine it would just lead to more defensiveness from them. I am, physically, a short and non-threatening woman. I find that using a lot of subtle manipulation a la My Big Fat Greek Wedding (“the man is the head but the woman is the neck that turns the head,”) paired with cheerful confidence and actually NOT making myself smaller seems to work well. I would say that I in general dress and groom in a relatively gender-neutral way (e.g. I am currently wearing black scrubs; I have long hair but it’s pulled back.) Sexist men are sometimes more likely to acknowledge my personhood if they can downplay that I’m a woman. It’s hard to give exact suggestions without knowing the kinds of conversations you’re having. But I often try to start by agreeing with the person I’m speaking to and then slipping in my ideas until they think that it was their idea from the start. It’s kind of hard to explain. But that’s how I get by.
A Significant Tree* January 17, 2025 at 1:31 pm I (F) had this issue with the de facto lead (M) of a project. I was the only woman on the team and the SME for a specific topic area. Lead didn’t like my position on something because it ‘didn’t feel right’ and he didn’t agree with it. At first I just tried more data, more references, more facts. After a few go-arounds, I started asking him what data, references, and facts he used to come to his conclusion, all framed as sincere curiosity “so I can understand better.” You can guess what he had to offer, and I did understand better: facts weren’t going to matter to this guy if a) presented by me and b) they differed from his opinion. Fortunately, his personal opinion didn’t carry enough weight to veto my facts-based position but it was closer than it should have been. My favorite encounter was a different guy who was trying to position himself as the expert in my specific topic. He made a claim about something during a public presentation, I asked for his references so I could better understand where that claim came from, and he directed me to … a marketing brochure, for a product that didn’t actually exist yet.
Bird Law* January 17, 2025 at 2:15 pm Midwestern young female lawyer here – When I encounter this, I usually make an appeal to external authority and I cite my sources. Your education and role should be enough to make your input “credible.” You shouldn’t try to make yourself smaller because it seems like you might not be meeting your job duties if you take that approach. If your job on the team is to use your specialized skill set to do the job right, you’re not doing the job if you hide that knowledge simply because not everyone else has it and that makes them feel small. Plus, shrinking from the conflict will probably reinforce their lack of respect. It’s weird to have to be an authority after a lifetime of conditioning that women should be smaller. You can’t afford that if your job is to know things that other people do not-your job is to provide a little friction in the process. It might be worth examining why you are trying to spare them pain. You haven’t mentioned this, but I’m guessing that if you’re trying to take their feelings into account, you’ve kept this attitude problem to yourself…. Don’t. Your supervisor needs to know so that when one of them storms in to his office complaining that you’re a bitch, he’s inclined to think otherwise. Very matter of fact: “I’m getting a lot of pushback from Brody and the team when I remind them of a requirement or I diverge from them on matters related to [my specialized skillset]. I think we’re making progress, but I wanted to keep you in the loop in case it escalates and I need you to back me up.” Good luck with the good ol’ boys.
Throwaway Account* January 17, 2025 at 2:59 pm I have always thought that “making yourself smaller” includes making an appeal to an outside authority. As in, it is not ME saying this, it is this paper/conclusion by this other author. It removes your own authority, no?
Oh* January 17, 2025 at 2:28 pm I hope you do not actually suggest they are being “sexist”. In my experience you can have a lot of discussions on how your authority is not taken seriously, but this word will shut down any form of goodwill. It makes men extremely defensive. It is difficult to make suggestions, but I use a lot of “confused attitude”, why some of their suggestions would make more sense than my suggestion? That way you have to talk about real arguments.
Turingtested* January 17, 2025 at 2:33 pm I’m in manufacturing. I wait patiently until someone says mil when they mean millimeter and then I call them out. I’m sure there’s something in your business that means “I know my stuff.” Find it and use it.
spcepickle* January 17, 2025 at 2:44 pm Also a sigh yes. I am a women working in civil engineer / construction. The number of times that people are shocked I am the boss and not the secretary is . . . disappointing. With people in my agency I name it when I think I have the capital and can do it effectively. Hey it seems like whenever I bring up an issue with the specs I notice you get kind of frustrated, whats up with that? I also love the question – “What did you mean by that?”, if I get under the breath comments or snide push back. I also think we need to be okay being labeled difficult by the jerks as long as your also building collaboration with the non-jerks. Are there people in your industry who you like who are a similar level – can you be intentional about building co-working relationships with. The further I get into my career the more I notice just how much word of mouth really matters. Having people who will say good things about you when you are not around is critical. Lastly I create a ladies who lead lunch group. And a few times a year I invite all the female managers in my wider agency who are in my area to lunch. We eat Mexican food and gossip – it can be really useful to hear that others are having the same issue with particular people and what they are doing about it. We have even coordinated push back in the same way and gotten good results. Sorry that you are dealing with this, you are not alone.
Policy Wonk* January 17, 2025 at 3:10 pm I’m a government manager, overseeing a large organization. I am respected in my field and am often asked to speak on my area of competence. And I get men a couple of rungs below me on the org chart pulling this. It never seems to go away. My response generally depends on who is questioning my expertise and how. Sometimes – someone very senior, or with special expertise – I ask them questions. Please explain your position. (They could have a point. Usually don’t, but not always.) If they answer with “I think” I ask for facts, data, etc. Sometimes I just tell them I am the expert (or I am the boss) and we are doing what I just said (almost always follow this up with instructions in writing so they can’t do something else claiming that’s what I said). Sometimes I let them rant until they run out of steam, looking at them like they are a museum exhibit or cranky toddler. Then I ask “Are you done?” and move on to the next item. And I get together with other women at my level to exchange notes, talk about how to handle things. I live in DC, so this isn’t limited to the Midwest (though I am a proud Midwesterner, having grown up there!)
Girasol* January 17, 2025 at 5:15 pm I’m also US Midwest in an area where many people expect that a godly woman would naturally defer to a man. At my company, I’d advance an idea and then hear everyone chuckle indulgently like I was a little girl pretending to be a grown up. Five minutes later a man would think of the same idea (!) and it would be brilliant. The man would visit me one-on-one afterward and explain to me my own idea, slowly, in small words. I don’t think there’s any fixing it. The best you can hope for sometimes is that you say what’s best for the company and let a man take credit, but at least the right thing gets done.
Hillary* January 17, 2025 at 5:25 pm This is why I got out of compliance. The most generous thing I can say is they might not be sexist, they might just be jerks. Look for allies. You said it’s some of them – can you enlist the others? A “dude, not cool” from another guy will go a long way. It’s not (just) about helping you, it’s about productive team dynamics. The jerks are wasting everyone’s valuable time. You can name the pattern without discussing motivations. And as Bird Law said, talk to your boss. The possible outcomes are all worse if your boss isn’t looped in.
Another freelancer* January 17, 2025 at 11:20 am I am about a year into my role and I would like some advice on looking for a new job. Despite the red flags I noticed in the interviews and the bad vibes I had, I accepted the role because I was unemployed. Now I want to leave this job at about the 18-month mark and hope I can hang on that long. When should I start looking for new roles? What can I do in the meantime just to get through each day?
SB* January 17, 2025 at 11:25 am It might help to make a list of what you don’t like about the job. And then think about the solution you would need to stay in the role. Is it flexibility? Is it pay? Is it the nature of the job itself? Once you know what you need, it’s easier to spot in the interview process. To get through the next 6 months, is there a skillset you want to develop to make you a stronger candidate for your next role? Lean into those opportunities if you can. Sometimes it can help to reframe from “this company is using me” to “how can I use this job for my benefit”
AvonLady Barksdale* January 17, 2025 at 11:25 am Start now. The looking may actually help you get through the day. I started my current job after a layoff and I was absolutely miserable for the first 8 months or so. I reached out to everyone I knew, I applied, I responded to every recruiter, I had interviews. Nothing felt right, but it gave me a sense of control. My job eventually got better, but I also resigned myself to staying here for various practical reasons. Also, if something good comes along before your 18-month mark, you can leave.
Sloanicota* January 17, 2025 at 6:13 pm I was thinking, no reason not to start now. If looking job-hoppy is going to stop you, you’ll know because you won’t get any interview requests. But if you get requests, well, I guess it didn’t stop you. You may want to be more picky about the next job you get so you don’t end up with lots of short stays but it’s been a year and could easily be a year and a half or two years by the time you leave, and that’s decent. My job searches seem to take a long time. I have to get “warmed up” on both applications and interviews. Six months would be quick for me!
Employed Minion* January 17, 2025 at 12:50 pm I appreciate your question. I also took a job with red flags because I was unemployed and am reaching the one year mark soon. My advice: 1) Take a breather, it can be great to just go to work for a few weeks but then start looking. 2) find things that help you get through the day: – I started listening to podcasts constantly at work and it has saved my sanity. -Walking, moving my body, during lunch has helped a lot too. – have something to look forward to at the end of the day or week, a hobby, time with loved ones, or a favorite meal. Others here have great advice too!
hotg0ss* January 17, 2025 at 11:22 am I’m currently working on two projects at work that are costly, time-consuming, and (possibly) useless. It’s really apparent that most of the leadership team thinks these projects are expensive boondoggles that we’re only engaged in because the Big Boss believes in them. One of the projects is related to sustainable energy, and we believe it will soon be irrelevant (at least, for the next four years). The other is a reaffirmation of an industry credential that, turns out, was done incorrectly the first time and needs to be started completely from scratch. I can’t help but feel like every day I am wasting resources for no reason. It’s too much for one person, so to do it properly I need some help, but I hate asking for help on a thing no one thinks we should even be doing. My title would imply that I’m empowered to make these decisions, but I’m not. I feel like I’m out to sea. I’ve tried to talk to my boss about it but the entire reason he hired me is that this a language he doesn’t speak (think everyone is llama groomers and I’m a specialist in llama grooming regulatory policy). What do you guys think? How can I make this sustainable for myself?
Required* January 17, 2025 at 2:05 pm I have two recommendations that have helped me in projects like this (although, from the sound of it, mine were less annoying): 1. Just disassociate your self-worth from this project. You were tasked to do it, and you’re gonna have to do it. So, when you ask for help, it may make it easier on you to say something like, “The company/boss/client wants this task completed, and I need help in…” That way, you don’t have to feel like you’re wasting resources, just that resources are being wasted by those decision makers above you. 2. Find ways to learn new skills during the task. Is there a process that can be completed with automation and can you learn how to automate it? Is there an opportunity to expand your network? Is this an opportunity to hone your writing and communication skills? Can you setup and document a guide for the future?
hotg0ss* January 20, 2025 at 8:57 am Thank you! I love the idea that there might be something in here I can learn from- absorbing that lesson will absolutely help me feel like I’m not spinning my wheels.
Kay* January 17, 2025 at 2:57 pm Agree with Required. Reminding yourself that it is not your responsibility to operate the business in an efficient manner nor ensure resources are reasonably allocated. Your responsibility is to follow the directives you receive from your boss in exchange for the money they agreed to pay you. You didn’t choose this path, but since it is your responsibility you can do it to the best of your ability.
hotg0ss* January 20, 2025 at 9:00 am Thank you. It’s so hard for me to not to derive most of my self-worth from work, and so this current situation has been especially bleh. I’m working on it, lol. Every little piece of wisdom helps!
RoadLessTraveler* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am I’ve started my job search but since that may be a career pivot (nonprofit admin to for profit admin) it may take a while to find the right fit. My current workplace has an equity model where everyone at the same level is making similar amounts in salary. So if one gets a raise, it’s considered for everyone at that level. I’ve been here three years and they’ve said the performance appraisal was not the time to discuss salary. Finally, I discussed it anyway. Appraisals are in October. I notice that raises are giving right before October. If I stay here, it seems that I wouldn’t get a significant increase until October. That’s a long time. I’m looking for other positions that are hybrid and also where I can make more but there aren’t as many openings as I hoped. I also love the work/life balance here. I feel people are just getting to know me, but I also feel like I am languishing skills-wise. Do you think I have hope of getting any increase before October? Is it worth giving up work/life balance for more money? Money is a tricky thing because more responsibilities are sometimes more stressful and I don’t really want to trade my calm nervous system for money. This balance is *very* hard for me to suss out in the job-seeking process. I find I don’t really know until I’m hired and there. Thanks for any answers.
Alexandra Beth* January 17, 2025 at 11:23 am Yesterday I apologised for something that wasn’t my fault. But I don’t know how I could have responded differently; I would love to hear your suggestions. The situation: I have been asked to contribute my expertise to a project at work. The alternative was to buy in external support but I said I could give the project some of my time. Not a problem. I was invited to a meeting (scheduled for an hour), Before the meeting, I sent an e-mail listing the particular things we should talk about and I repeated those at the beginning of the meeting. Nods and murmurs of agreement from everyone. 40 minutes later, after I had asked some challenging questions (a necessary part of my job), the person who set up the meeting (“Ben”) said that the purpose of the meeting was to decide whether to get external support or if I had the capacity to help them. I’d already agreed to help and if he’d forgotten, that conversation definitely doesn’t need to be an hour-long meeting with four people! I can only imagine he was frustrated or irritated by my questions. In the moment, I apologised for misunderstanding the purpose of the meeting. But I didn’t misunderstand! Ben is senior to me and I work with him a lot. So I need to be polite. But I really wish I’d had the right words to respond without apologising. What would you have said?
Honoria Lucasta* January 17, 2025 at 11:30 am Maybe just “Ohhh” instead of “I’m sorry” and then the rest of what you said could have been the same? In these situations, I think “I’m sorry” sometimes functions as a kind of symbolic expression that fills the space where a computer would say “re-cal-i-bra-ting.” And at one level, it reads like there was *some* kind of miscommunication at least. You took the meeting invitation to mean one thing and entered the meeting prepped accordingly, and obviously Ben intended something different.
Cordelia* January 17, 2025 at 11:46 am yes I’m a little confused – it sounds like you did misunderstand the purpose of the meeting. You thought it was already agreed that you were working on the project, whereas the meeting was actually to decide whether this was the way forward. No need for effusive apologies, but saying “oh sorry, I misunderstood the purpose of the meeting” seems appropriate.
Alexandra Beth* January 17, 2025 at 12:14 pm Yes, I suppose it could have been my misunderstanding. The reasons I think it wasn’t is that – my involvement had already been agreed by e-mail – making that decision wouldn’t have needed an hour long meeting with four people – when I outlined my understanding of the meeting by e-mail and at the beginning, nobody disagreed – nobody told me otherwise for 40 minutes (and Ben is not shy about disagreeing normally!) However, good to know that my response might have been entirely appropriate after all. As always, most of my problems are only in my head!
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm Dollars to donuts, Ben didn’t read your detailed email. If he had, he would have either said “Oh, I guess you do understand this, ;ets move on to implementation” or “Hold on, we’re not there yet – first we need to decide if it makes sense to use you or an external resources”
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:45 am I probably would have said something like, “I’m so sorry, there was a misunderstanding somewhere. Based on my conversation with Professor X, I was under the impression that this was already settled and I was working on the project. Should we take a step back and talk about whether I would be the right fit?”
DataWonk* January 17, 2025 at 12:10 pm “Ah, seems like we miscommunicated then. I was driving the conversation based on the points I sent out previously and didn’t know we were still on the internal/external decision.” I have been in similar conversations re: deciding on internal vs external contributors and this sounds frustrating given he waited 40 minutes (!), but an honest mistake (unless you know Ben to pull this kind of stuff often). “Giving the project some of your time” often means discussing feasibility at the first meeting. When I am in those kinds of meetings, I say things like “Teapot makers need to gauge whether X or Y”, which doesn’t imply if the teapot maker is you or not.
DEEngineer* January 17, 2025 at 3:04 pm I think you did the right thing. It’s unclear to me if Ben wanted you to help from the start or if someone else told him that you’re the resource and he has to accept it. Especially on technical projects I’ve found that the people on the project who need help tend to be territorial and defensive. I’ve been in that position myself!
saskia* January 17, 2025 at 3:19 pm If Ben didn’t set an agenda for the meeting, that’s his fault. Why didn’t he say anything for the first 40 minutes? I think your actions were fine here.
Tammy 2* January 17, 2025 at 3:29 pm It’s not the most professional word, but “whoops” serves me well in situations like this. “Whoops, my understanding was that we’d already established that I was going to help and we were meeting today to discuss further details.” It smooths things out a little bit without being an apology no one is owed.
Rosey* January 17, 2025 at 9:38 pm I’m sure it’s partly cultural differences, but this “do not apologise for things that aren’t your fault” lark always confused me. It always felt like it was introducing the potential for needless friction in aid of some probably a bit true true but possibly overwrought assertion that “women have been apologising too much, dammit, and it needs to stop now!” I’ve seen it applied in situations where, to me, I’d expect the word “sorry” from anyone no matter their gender, even if they weren’t technically in the wrong, just because that’s part of greasing the wheels of interaction. A lot of the time it would be a mutual, reciprocated sorry and not necessarily a real apology. Just like saying “how are you” when you greet someone, even if you aren’t literally asking how someone is. And in this case, because Ben is senior to you, I particularly don’t think you were wrong to apologise. I don’t think we need to prostrate ourselves in front of our bosses, but a little deference to make things run smoother isn’t necessarily a bad idea. That being said, I do think that after the apology you probably could have then firmly stated that your understanding was the decision for you to provide your expertise had already been made (and maybe you did!). But still, I think an apology was completely warranted. Also! I think in cases where it’s clear that at least one party has misunderstood it’s always a good idea to go in with a mild apology, because you never know. Sometimes even when you are 100% certain at the beginning that the misunderstanding is on the other person’s part, this can prove to not be the case. It happens to everyone once in a while!
handfulofbees* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am Been chewing on this for a while: what right does a person have to a job? Think the shittiest coworker you’ve ever had, and everybody’s so relieved when they go. Someone who cannot keep a job because their performance or attitude are abysmal. They still have to make a living somehow, and no matter how bad they are, they still have to eat. How would a just society work through this? Vs how it is now?
PokemonGoToThePolls* January 17, 2025 at 11:40 am A just society would ensure that every person would have safe and comfortable housing, adequate, healthy food, clothing, healthcare, and the other basic necessities of life without any requirement of work whatsoever.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:49 am This. I’m pro-basic income for a lot of reasons, but I’d love it for people who are awful at their jobs! Their “job” can be not working with me and not driving me crazy. This is a win win.
Charlotte Lucas* January 17, 2025 at 1:08 pm This! And for a lot of those people, the “right” job just isn’t feasible due to economic considerations.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 1:23 pm That’s a huge part of it too. I think about how many people would be much happier as colleagues if they were afforded the opportunity to do something that paid much less but that they were much better suited for. Let’s make that happen for them!
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am Obviously, you don’t have a son-in-law living in your house, paying no rent, sleeping every day away, buying expensive toys with his Social Security income, while you feed and watch and love his kids. When he does get up, he yells profanities at his kids because they’re not self-sufficient enough and he had to get up. His wife works, and they could be saving over $2k a month for buying a house, but in the last year, they’ve managed to save about $5k total. No, I don’t know the answer. But there are people who try and people who take advantage, and there isn’t always a clear way to identify them, nor a clear way to deal with those who only want to take advantage.
Pocket Mouse* January 17, 2025 at 12:10 pm That’s a relationship problem, not a social safety net problem. But re: your last sentence, better to have some people take advantage than to have people who need the safety net not have one.
DataWonk* January 17, 2025 at 12:27 pm We can’t separate relationships from social safety nets. They are the exact same thing at different scales.
Pocket Mouse* January 17, 2025 at 1:09 pm Can you say more? I think the scale makes a very big difference, to the extent we can indeed separate them. The government shouldn’t be monitoring how people spend their SS benefits, but members of a family who are closely and financially interdependent do need to be in some level of agreement about their shared budget. I’m a proponent of housing for all/housing first, but an individual does largely get to decide who they allow to live with them under their roof, and similarly, can press for arrangements around how housing costs will be paid for among members of the household. I’d love for everyone to put effort into making the world a better, more equitable place, but that can’t be required on a large scale. On a household level, the individuals can have boundaries about how much labor they will do that is technically another person’s responsibility, and around the behavior they will and will not accept toward themselves or toward children in their care, and whether and how long to stay in a marriage that isn’t healthy (not saying that’s necessarily the case for the family ThursdaysGeek is talking about, but yelling at one’s kids for needing assistance and problematic spending habits that prevent or delay the ability to live independently don’t sound like a particularly healthy situation overall to me). A just society with ample safety nets would still have people in situations like the one ThursdaysGeek describes; thus addressing that situation falls at the individual relationship level.
different seudonym* January 17, 2025 at 1:39 pm Seriously, no. This is wrong. Relationships are both radically contingent and culturally bound, and therefore often irrational and unfair. The social safety net is (supposed to be) a form of justice.
DataWonk* January 17, 2025 at 2:18 pm Social safety nets depend on culturally bound definitions of what “adequate food, shelter, healthcare” are. These definitions are based in smaller community relationships and aggregate their way up to whatever system would be responsible for maintaining the “social safety net” to begin with.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 12:10 pm There will be people who take advantage in any scenario. We provide for them anyway, because the benefit of providing for everyone else who isn’t taking advantage far and away outweighs the problem of providing for those who are deemed to be “cheating” the system.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 12:14 pm The thing is, even entitled bullies should have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. Preferably not by tormenting family and friends though.
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 12:25 pm Obviously, I do agree with the responses to a degree, since he’s still in our house, still has a roof over his head. And yet, it also isn’t helping him by letting him be a child when he could and should be an adult. Adults should contribute in some way – it isn’t healthy to only take.
Irish Teacher.* January 17, 2025 at 12:59 pm I don’t think PokemonGoToThePolls’ solution would make that any worse though. It might even make it slightly better – for you and maybe his wife, if not for his kids – because he would hopefully be able to afford his own place and his wife wouldn’t be under so much pressure to earn for both of them. I don’t think we need to identify or deal with those who “only want to take advantage.” I have no doubt there are some people in Ireland who make no effort to get a job and just stay on the dole for life. I doubt it’s many because €244…isn’t exactly fun to try and live on, but there are probably some who figure “I’d rather manage on that than bother working,” especially if they have a partner or parents they can live with, but…quite frankly, I don’t care. They’ve left more jobs available for those who can actually be bothered doing them and if we accidentally help a handful of people who don’t need it while supporting those who do (most of whom, in the latter case, have been paying for the supports with their taxes for years before they lost their jobs or if they are younger and haven’t gotten a first job yet, will pay once they do), that seems reasonable to me. And honestly, even with people like your son-in-law, I’d rather they got benefits because at least then there is something they can use to provide for their children, who aren’t to blame for their parent’s laziness and it might also take some pressure off your daughter.
Double A* January 17, 2025 at 1:57 pm But what if he had enough to take care of his basic needs (nothing fancy, just the basics) and not mooch off you? All of society would share the load of freeloaders, which is annoying. But more fair because they exist and take advantage of somebody.
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 1:24 pm It is demonstrably cheaper to give people money and to house homeless people than it is to let them be poor or homeless. UBI tests have universally succeeded and yet we keep not implementing it at any scale.
HannahS* January 17, 2025 at 1:27 pm With tax dollars. Finland did it. Medicine Hat did it. It’s possible; it requires political will and organization. I know more about Housing-First programs than universal basic income, because we have some housing-first programs in my Canadian city. They save taxpayer money because hospitalizing people and incarcerating people is so much more expensive than housing them. Earlier this year, I had a man hospitalized on my unit for 14 days longer than he really needed to be, because we had nowhere to send him. He could not live independently but would have died if we discharged him to the street and the shelters were full; he will never be able to work, and he has no family. The cost to the taxpayer of those fourteen days would pay for fourteen MONTHS of my rent–in a condo with two bedrooms and a sunroom in a desirable neighbourhood.
Apple Studmuffin* January 18, 2025 at 4:52 pm I’ve heard the suggestion of a MUCH higher Value Added Tax on everything; follow this thought: right now people are expensive to employ, so employers automate jobs. If instead OUTPUT/WORK were taxed, government coffers will continue to be filled even with automation and AI. Two added bonuses: income tax could be deleted (so people making a living off investments would no longer have that edge over salaried people); and instead of the commonly imagined dystopia of a future with a few Haves (doing the few remaining jobs) and billions of Have-nots (no job, therefore abject poverty), everyone would have a UBI based on the value add produced by bots/people/whatever who brought a product to market.
Stuart Foote* January 17, 2025 at 1:49 pm That’s completely insane–so people have no obligation to participate in their own survival or contribute to society? Why would anyone accept any kind of undesirable job if they didn’t need a job to survive? Sometimes this site is a little out of touch…
Angstrom* January 17, 2025 at 2:53 pm In theory, people would work because they’d want to do more than just survive.
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 3:11 pm “safe and comfortable housing, adequate, healthy food, clothing, healthcare, and the other basic necessities of life” — if you’ve got all that, why work? That is certainly more than just surviving. And as to my son-in-law above: it’s hard for me to work so hard so he can play so hard. It’s going to come to an end, but that’s the relationship part: it’s not helping him by us helping him.
Head Sheep Counter* January 17, 2025 at 3:18 pm Yeah the way that should be enabled to find a place to live/work and get by suddenly becomes… more than the average person gets for free… is part of how these conversations get dodgy. Good luck on re-establishing more appropriate boundaries/expectations with your family!
Bitte Meddler* January 17, 2025 at 3:49 pm Well, the facts say that you’re wrong. In places with Universal Basic Income, the employment rate stays the same. The number of unhoused people decreases and they types of jobs people take change (because they can, for instance, become a musician instead of stocking shelves at Costco). Just look at Alaska. The state isn’t full of a bunch of bums because The Alaska Permanent Fund hands residents $1600/year. People would still take undesirable jobs because those match their skillsets, or the amount of effort they want to put into climbing any ladders. The jobs would still get done, but the children of the people in those jobs wouldn’t face a day of starvation or living in a car.
Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est* January 17, 2025 at 5:09 pm $1600/year isn’t what UBI proponents are going for, nor is it what OP was pondering. That’s ~$125/mo, $35/week, ~$5/day. That’s a Big Mac per day–if they’re lucky?
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 5:10 pm Yes. All of this. Arts would be able to flourish, people could work according to their abilities without needing to worry about making rent or buying food…
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 7:01 pm That’s one way to look at it. I might be overly jaded but there would be a lot of people who spend their UBI on booze, gambling, cigarettes, weed, harder drugs, guns, and “corn” with a p rather than a c; as opposed to the arts
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 7:12 pm People spend their money on that anyway! Who am I to tell someone how to live?
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 7:15 pm So you would be okay with someone robbing a bank? I mean who cares about the 40 people who just got trauma from witnessing it If it starts affecting other people I think we should tell people what to do. Some of those vices lead to awful things (DV, abuse, etc).
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 8:02 pm Sure. But you’re willing to work so you can pay for them to live that way?
ThatGirl* January 17, 2025 at 10:17 pm Buying booze is not the same as robbing a bank. We all pay taxes for the common good, these are ridiculous arguments.
Camina Drummer* January 19, 2025 at 8:17 pm We already pay taxes for rich people to live like this. Why not pay taxes so the poor don’t go hungry?
Scholarly Publisher* January 17, 2025 at 10:35 pm Sure. Same with rich people supported by trust funds; some of them spend their money on partying rather than on building something that adds to the world. (And some of them start as partiers and eventually outgrow it, and some don’t.) How many people would you consider too many, though? If ten million adults in the US were wastrels using their UBI to lie around inebriated, that would still mean 95% of the US adult population were working paid jobs because they wanted to accomplish something through work or earn enough money for something bigger, or were using their UBI to support themselves while they pursued something that didn’t pay a living wage on its own (starting a business, getting an education to pursue a career they’re interested in, full-time parenting, volunteering, working but only part-time), or were using their UBI to stay housed and fed when they were genuinely unable to work. 95% of people using a benefit well? I’m good with that. (That said, I’m a UBI skeptic, but “some people would use it badly” isn’t one of the reasons without further evidence. I grew up knowing many women who weren’t working because they didn’t need to, and they were by no means wastrels.)
Stuart Foote* January 17, 2025 at 7:04 pm I’m a little confused because no country has an Universal Basic Income, and the example you cite is Alaska at $1600/year, which I’m sure is nice to get but doesn’t move the needle much. Why would anyone want to stock shelves at Costco if they could get all their needs met by not working at all? Or take the example of picking fruit–no one in the world would do that because it matches their skill set or they want to climb the ladder or whatever. They do it because they need to do it to live. There are tons of jobs where that is the case, and many of them are essential for society to function.
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 7:12 pm I’m probably one of them. I have a great job that I love; but if you’re telling me I get to maintain my standard of living just sitting around doing nothing and taking in free government cash. Well of course I would chose that; I think most people would. I think many UBI proponents forget how selfish people can be; and assume that people would keep doing essential jobs for the heck of it. Maybe doctors and lawyers who would be making significantly more money than the UBI amount would choose to; but others. I’m not so sure Now this isn’t to say I don’t support a strong social safety net for those with actual need, I very much do.
Pocket Mouse* January 18, 2025 at 7:17 am UBI is on the level of $1000/month. I strongly suspect that would not be enough to maintain your current standard of living (with income from a “great job”), but it can save a LOT of people from losing their homes because they can’t make rent, choosing between feeding their kids and themselves, getting sick due to delaying medical care, staying in unhealthy relationships or living situations, you name it.
fhqwhgads* January 18, 2025 at 4:09 pm UBI isn’t meant to help anyone maintain their current standard of living – if that standard is in any way comfortable – while sitting around doing nothing. UBI is “prevent you from becoming homeless” level assistance.
Orange* January 18, 2025 at 10:53 am Don’t forget the “universal” part of UBI: a farmer would get whatever growing vegetables earns *plus* the local basic income. This doesn’t entirely negate your argument, but it’s worth remembering that under UBI everyone who is working gets more money than they would by not working.
HBJ* January 18, 2025 at 2:23 am Alaska absolutely has homeless problems. And, depending on the area, $1600 would pay for maaaaybe a very small apartment for 2 months.
I Have RBF* January 17, 2025 at 5:02 pm So, you know how the term “starving” always gets attached to “artist”?? Their contribution to society never gets monetized. If a person’s contribution to society is only measured by how much they can get paid for it, then we have an awful society. UBI would allow someone the freedom to create (and practice creating) without, you know, starving, while they perfected their craft. As far as “Why would anyone accept any kind of undesirable job if they didn’t need a job to survive?” That is a really nasty way to incentivize people to do undesirable work. The whole “work at a shit job or starve” (or, usually “work at a shit job AND starve”) is a damning indictment of late stage capitalism. IMO, undesirable jobs should pay a lot more as an incentive to do them. The free market would work more as intended if everyone had a solid floor from which to make choices.
Jennifer @unchartedworlds* January 17, 2025 at 5:16 pm The essential but unpleasant jobs (like unblocking sewers) would be well paid. Some of the inessential jobs would probably disappear entirely.
Rosey* January 17, 2025 at 9:55 pm That would be great. Currently some of the most important jobs to society are the worst paid, while some of the most useless, or even harmful, are the best compensated. I also think it would be great if people didn’t have to think as much about potential earnings when they were choosing what field to study or train for, or indeed if further education wasn’t only looked on as a factory for producing a certain kind of worker.
Scholarly Publisher* January 17, 2025 at 9:26 pm Depends on where “survival” is set. If UBI meant that with no one working, my family could live in my current house, afford fresh standard ingredients to cook tasty food, have enough money to afford two week’s worth of new clothes and a couple pairs of shoes per person and to replace them when they wear out/are outgrown, have a phone or computer for each household member and a household internet connection, have a reliable and dull car for each adult, keep the house at a comfortable temperature in summer and winter, have our own washing machine, send the kids to college or trade school if they’re so inclined, get all our medical care and prescriptions, and if we’re really frugal have enough extra to splurge on hobby supplies a couple times a year? I like my job, but I’ve been doing it for decades, and given that level of UBI I’d retire in a heartbeat and put more time into my hobbies, my family activities, and my existing volunteer work. That said, in the UBI scenario I’d presumably have had to work for several years to get enough money to buy this house in the first place, and I like privacy enough that I’d be motivated to do that. And once I had it, the call of the fancy craft supplies or the desire to visit my relatives could be enough to keep me working. If UBI meant that I’d be living in a dormitory set at whatever temperature’s cheapest, eating whatever’s on the institutional menu for the day, spending time with everyone else who’s on barebones UBI, wearing crappy cheap clothes that’re washed in the communal machine and stink of detergent, having nothing to do except watch whatever’s on the communal television (and not be able to get away by myself to read a library book), whereas working means I can stay in my house etc.? Then if I can find a job that’s better than the dormitory, I’m working — which still might not be *any* undesirable job.
Redaktorin* January 18, 2025 at 7:13 am Hi, I’m sure you’ve moved on by now, but I want to tell you a secret. I love doing dishes. It’s amazing. I talk to myself a lot, just sort of running through favorite things I’ve read recently or conversations I had/want to have—I think it might be mild autism?—but anyway, activities like doing dishes give me a chance to do that, since my brain and mouth aren’t as engaged as my hands. Also, I have poor circulation and the hot water feels nice on my hands, which are otherwise permanently cold. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’d be thrilled to be a dishwasher, in a world where I didn’t have to provide much more than dishwasher money for my family. A lot of people assume nobody would want X job because it’s not prestigious, it pays poorly, we’ve all been trained to think of it as deeply unpleasant, etc. But I suspect there are more people out there who are intrinsically motivated to do such work than you know.
epizeugma* January 19, 2025 at 4:21 am Exactly the same for me. I’d go back to my “menial” food service job that involved a lot of dishwashing, prep work, and cleaning in a heartbeat … if only it paid a living wage. I think people have forgotten what it was like for low-wage workers in the period of time when we had Covid stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment benefits, and eviction moratoriums. So many people I know were immediately and immensely impacted by the ability to work just one job instead of several, to get treatment for health issues without worrying that missing one or two shifts was going to lead to utility shutoffs and eviction, or even to have a little bit of leisure time to make art or learn a new skill. UBI isn’t about subsidizing an aspirational middle-class lifestyle, it’s about making sure that people can stay housed and fed even when they get sick, or their parent or child or spouse gets sick, or a natural disaster strikes, or they experience some other crisis or trauma. A frightening percentage of the U.S. population is just one unexpected car repair or medical bill away from homelessness. It would be cheaper (not to mention more just and humane) to prevent that precarity through UBI or similar social programs than what we do now, which is … allow people to slip through the cracks, then jail them for the crime of living outside.
Part time lab tech* January 18, 2025 at 1:31 am Adequate means what? Does it mean a room in a lodging house or an independent unit? Or a bed and locker? Our public housing used to mean a 40 to 50m2 duplex with some outside space but most of these have been bulldozed for higher density or sold to developers. Is it a voucher for groceries or money that they can spend on anything? (I don’t have a problem with money. Vouchers won’t stop addicts buying their substance of choice and the dignity of money for the rest is more important.) The problem with some shitty coworkers is that getting one over everyone else is part of their motivation so they’d still be around.
HR Exec Popping In* January 17, 2025 at 12:00 pm The person should find a person that they have skills at or work in a role that doesn’t require them to interact with others if it is behavioral.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 12:11 pm I’m a firm believer that there is a place for everyone somewhere. The trouble is finding that place. It’s extra difficult if you have someone who doesn’t want to look for it themselves. It’s one thing for someone who might not be capable to find Their Place because of disabilities, that’s a different scenario. And there are sometimes organizations and resources dedicated to that. But the capable but unwilling? I’m not sure what the best way would be. I’m really interested in what other commenters will say about this. The simply solution is universal basic income but surely there must be some ways outside of that?
Irish Teacher.* January 17, 2025 at 12:52 pm I think the best option I can see is a decent social welfare system. My opinion is that social welfare/the dole/jobseekers’ allowance should pay enough to cover food, shelter, healthcare, bills, etc so a person who was truly unable to succeed at any job (and I do think they are rare) might not have a great standard of living but they wouldn’t go hungry or be at risk of homelessness. They’d just have to watch the pennies and wouldn’t be able to afford luxuries or to go on holiday or eat out much or anything. They should also have access to free job readiness training to support them to build the skills they need to get a job. Are there people who would take advantage? Possibly. Heck, there are probably some people who don’t try too hard to get a job under our current system in Ireland where the benefits are like €244 a week for a single person, but I reckon there aren’t that many people who’d be happy to just barely get enough each week to live on if all jobs paid enough for at least the odd luxury (I am not suggesting all jobs should pay enough to allow people to winter in the Bahamas but they should pay enough to allow people to have a meal out a couple of times a month or buy slightly nicer clothes than are absolutely necessary or whatever). And anyway, I’m not sure I care. I’d rather see the odd person get €300 a week or whatever when they could get a job if they tried harder than see people end up homeless or hungry because they lose their job.
Head Sheep Counter* January 17, 2025 at 1:19 pm I don’t think one has a right to anything beyond what has been set as rights, laws and common understanding of behavior within one’s group. One certainly does not have rights to a privately provided service/property or job. Society may find it in its best interest to provide for everyone… but one is not owed this. I’d prefer to live in a society that takes care of its own but that also encourages a community mind and a willingness to get creative. If society provides X then its on the individuals in that society to make it possible to provide X by meaningfully participating. I also don’t think we are owed the ability to live and thrive wherever we so choose to go. I think, in fact, we should be a lot more thoughtful about where we locate and get real about the changing environment and the costs associated. There is a separate conversation when the area you live in changes out from under you.
Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est* January 17, 2025 at 3:17 pm I think money clouds the issue; money chases and represents goods and potential services, and ultimately those goods and services are actual quality of life. The results are going to be underwhelming. You said that “they still have to eat” and that’s true: so whatever standard of living you’re going to offer, it’s going to be inferior to farming, because if farmers find the safety-net option more attractive, no one will have vegetables to eat. If construction workers find the safety-net option more attractive, homes will cease to be built and repaired. So on and so forth. Someone, somewhere, has to be working and creating because their alternative is not having anything. I think it ends up looking a lot like what exists today. Begging, shelters, trading dignity for handouts. It’s not pretty, but the reason we have the abundance to donate to those less fortunate is because the alternative is everyone having nothing.
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 4:13 pm And there is another level too: we are happier and healthier when we are productive. The people who know this will always find a way to be productive, but it takes time to learn this, and some people don’t learn it. My SIL (above) is not the first person we’ve had living in our house, and when we’ve offered housing, we’ve invariably determined that the person in need of housing had much deeper problems, and the lack of stable housing was only a symptom. Treating the symptom doesn’t actually help the person, not in the long run. The whole idea that sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they learn to help themselves, the idea of tough love: that is not invalid. Handing things to people with no strings – it’s good to make sure the children are not homeless. But it’s certainly not the entire solution. Nor is it an easy solution, whatever it is. I wish I knew.
Annie* January 18, 2025 at 2:10 am Ah, this is where people who push back on establishing or expanding social programs are coming from! We can still have social programs in place and easy to access for people who need help while making them unappealing for people who can do for themselves, e.g. retooling SNAP benefits to be tied an individually-tailored diet prescribed by a doctor with allowances for convenience foods that meet the diet’s requirements. Another possibility is higher granularity in describing soft-skill job requirements, e.g. “This position will have you in X type of contact via Y with Z type clients/vendors for W portion of the workday, excluding staff meetings, breaks, and lunch. Tasks are of P type with expressed or implied deadlines between Q and R. You will be expected to keep track of N to M things at once in performing your job tasks.” Some places already do this to account for different personalities and neurodivergences. Ideally, that would allow people who would be a bad personality fit, or who would find a job with a certain mix of soft skill requirements to be a bad work/brain fit to self-select out, but it wouldn’t account for people who need just any job, are desperate to break into a particular field or force a certain line of work to pan out, or who lack the self-awareness and any other necessary cognitive skills to discern good fit from bad.
Pocket Mouse* January 18, 2025 at 7:44 am Please keep in mind that housing—and particularly stable housing—is a key component to addressing deeper problems. It is very difficult to work on oneself (as in therapy, perhaps) or adhere to a consistent medication or appointment schedule when you have the immediate need of ensuring a safe place to sleep.
ThursdaysGeek* January 19, 2025 at 7:30 pm Yes, which is why we’ve offered housing to many people over the years. But most of those people started to feel they deserved everything we offered them, without any effort on their part. Pushing them to find and work for their own housing, standing on their own feet has been hard. Maybe we’re just doing it wrong. Those who push back on establishing more or expanded social programs, as Annie mentions, usually object to sharing their hard work or money at all. And they are often those who are richer. I want social programs — the needs are too big for me to make a dent working alone. I think one of our problems is that if a person with benefits starts to work, they lose benefits. We should encourage them in working, adding work means more money, not the same or less.
Girasol* January 17, 2025 at 5:28 pm Really interesting question! I’m trying to imagine the differences between someone who’s hard to work with because he’s a jerk and someone who is equally hard to work with because of a mental health issue. Or perhaps someone who just doesn’t want to work compared to someone whose physical disabilities prevent them from working. I suppose if you felt sure that you were dealing with a healthy jerk or healthy lazy person, you’d quit coddling them and chuck them out to learn the hard way about the consequences of their behavior. You’d still need a social safety net for those with health issues, including those who got chucked out over attitude problems but lacked the mental wherewithal to learn and grow from the experience.
Lala land* January 17, 2025 at 11:27 am I would love some advice on how to reduce my anxiety about a new work policy that’s being rolled out. Short version – we are going from an extremely flexible hybrid policy to a much more restrictive one, dictated by the C-suite. Unless my grand-boss can get some exceptions made, we are almost certainly going to lose some of our high-level SMEs, who have been working remotely for years. Even though the policy doesn’t affect me directly (my role has always been full-time onsite) it has the potential to drastically change my job b/c I primarily interact with one of the SMEs and that’s who directs most of my work. We have a couple of months before this is implemented but I’m already waking up at 4AM freaking out about it. Any advice? I am going to very reluctantly dust off my CV in case things get really bad, but I wouldn’t be looking to make a change otherwise.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 11:54 am Which part of this is causing the anxiety, or is it all of it? i.e. people leave roles all the time, so is the concern that you’re not going to get to work with this SME anymore? That they won’t re-hire the SME? That you’ll have no one to direct your work? Something else?
Lala land* January 17, 2025 at 12:58 pm Hmm, good point. I know it took over a year to hire this SME; they’ve been looking for another SME in this role for over a year as well. We are in a very niche subspecialty; I have some expertise gained on the job but don’t have direct education/experience to really be doing any of the higher level work our SME performs (I transitioned from a related field a couple of years ago). My only colleague in this role has said if the SME leaves, he will look for a new job because he feels like it would put a halt to his career growth. I think my fear is very much having to do my job (and the job of 2-3 others) with minimal/no support for an extended amount of time, and the possibility of making a mistake that could cost the company $$$ and potentially do harm to people (my role is healthcare safety related).
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 1:27 pm I think the biggest argument you can make to the Grand Boss is that this new mandate will result in an exodus in roles that have historically been incredibly difficult to fill because they are so incredibly niche, and for that reason they should consider making an exception for the SMEs who have historically done a great job and have had no issues as remote employees. The main downside to this is that they may not be willing to let Grand Boss know that they’re looking for other work as a result of this policy change, and I suppose that’s not really your info to share either. I do wonder if the SMEs can approach Grand Boss as a unit, though, to make this argument.
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 12:31 pm Make a plan for your worst case scenario. * Finances – do you have a sufficient emergency savings to keep you going for a bit? If not, start saving. * CV – dust it off and put out some feelers. You don’t have to take anything you’re offered, but it can be good to know what the market is like right now. * Work – talk to your boss about contingency planning! Not just for this WFH situation either. If your job is reliant on one specific SME being there – not a role, this specific person – then you could just as easily be destabilized if they have a health crisis or win the lottery. Maybe the plan is that if this SME leaves you will work with the next person in the role. Or take over the work yourself. Or be completely out of luck. I’m not sure which is the option, but your bosses probably are. * Get your personal admin in a row. Healthcare appointments, car repairs, etc – try to frontload things. Sometimes the best way to deal with anxiety is to tell the anxiety demon at 4 AM “yes brain, I did the thing. We’ll be OK. Let me sleep!”
Yes, I'll cry over spilt milk* January 17, 2025 at 11:29 am Working with new graduates, Gen Z. Plot twist they’re only with us a year and effectively earn $7.70 an hour. To note: the government funded program managers aren’t all that helpful in this respect. I’m Gen X and have been in non-profit for 20+ years. In my last org/role we had 3 awesome Gen Z graduates who were fun, exciting and outgoing (and they were all women). In my new role, all our Gen Z graduates are men and very shy, quite awkward. Any feedback, advice, or guidance on supporting, motivating, and guiding Gen Z in what is likely their first (and sadly low paid) job. We’ll onboard a new group in June and I want to implement skill training such as time and task management, inter-personal communications (all three positions talk with those we support so they have external relatonship building reuqirements). I also want us to purchase their CliftonStrength report (Top 5) that they keep and we can all use to help them fine tune their strenghts (I’m not a certified coach, just an interested user) and help us, help them. Other non-profits do this with their volunteers.
Caramel & Cheddar* January 17, 2025 at 12:00 pm I think all these “workplace norms” things are good, and are things you should do regardless of whether or not they’re fun/exciting/outgoing or shy/awkward. For me, when I was young and underpaid, what motivated me was being given the chance to work on meaningful projects. I know a lot of people at this level get to do grunt work, but it’s hard to get excited about the grunt work, especially for $7.70 an hour. They’re new to the workforce, so having an opportunity to work on a variety of things to see what they actually like doing would be good, and possibly more valuable than doing some sort of personality quiz (which is what this CliftonStrength thing sounds like). I’d also assess whether or not it’s actually a problem that your current batch are shy. There’s nothing worse than someone trying to “fix” a shy person if it doesn’t impact the work they’re doing.
Yes, I'll cry over spilt milk* January 17, 2025 at 12:44 pm Yes, I don’t want to fix the shyness or any personality or preference trait. I just want to know how I should approach with respect and understanding. I found it interesting the correlation. I’ll admit I hope for a more engaging bunch, but that’s on me not them. This is our first cohort and we’re still ironing out processes. We have really good projects. Our ‘staff’ went to a meeting with their peers (in the same program) and they said that we’re offering them more work and learning than what their peers are telling them. I’m absolutely amazed at what they’ve done. And hope our next cohort is able to elevate their work.
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* January 17, 2025 at 1:10 pm I think you kind of have your answer in there. You don’t want to judge this cohort based on the 3 people you had last round. So don’t. Be objective and self-aware about what you are doing. When you get a momentary feeling of “Bummer, I wish they were like X from last year”, stop and ask yourself why you think that way. Part of being a manager is getting along with everybody, not just the people you naturally vibe with. So you need to be clear in your own head about seeing the strengths of different people, and then figure out how to apply those strengths to your projects, and how to encourage people to grow in places that aren’t necessarily strengths.
Seashell* January 17, 2025 at 12:31 pm Is it a job requirement that employees be fun, exciting, and outgoing or is that just your personal preference? You can adequately communicate with others without being an extrovert. Being shy and awkward doesn’t make you not “awesome.” Maybe it doesn’t make it easy to get jobs or convince the extroverts of the world that you are worthwhile, but there are a lot of worse personality traits in the world. I have a Gen Z son, and he’d probably be described by most as shy and awkward, but he’s a good person and gets pretty chatty when he’s comfortable with someone. He has his challenges, but I don’t think all the training in the world would alter his personality. Don’t go into this thinking you’re going to get a square peg to fit in a round hole.
Yes, I'll cry over spilt milk* January 17, 2025 at 12:50 pm Ok defensiveness – check. Helpful advice – no check.
Seashell* January 17, 2025 at 1:23 pm My advice is to change your mindset that everyone should behave a certain way. You can try to turn the characters from Silicon Valley into the Prom King if you want, but I think you’re not going to get very far. Maybe focus on training them how to deal with your clientele and, if their personality traits are actually getting in the way of that, deal with it then and tell next year’s hiring manager that you prefer a different type of hire. I personally can’t imagine what someone could do in a nonprofit workplace to be labeled “exciting.” Are they jumping out of airplanes during their lunch break or randomly bursting into song & dance in the front lobby?
Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s* January 17, 2025 at 2:22 pm No one wants to help someone who gives entitled, dickish replies to everything. Read the room. It’s not cute or funny.
Workerbee* January 17, 2025 at 10:24 pm What skills training are you pursuing so you can handle different types of self-expression in the workplace?
Annie* January 18, 2025 at 3:54 am When you say Seashell didn’t give helpful advice, are you really saying, “I’m mostly looking for ways to teach shy, awkward men how to show initiative and perform friendliness and/or happiness to the level expected/required at many workplaces, including mine”? If not, can you give an example of where the fun, exciting and outgoing women differed from how the shy, awkward men approach work and how that impacted your ability to work effectively with either group, e.g. “Ms. X talked about A and B while doing P whereas Mr. Y silently did Q”?
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* January 17, 2025 at 12:53 pm Good point. What one person sees as “fun, exciting, and outgoing” I might see as “unserious, overconfident, and unfocused”.
Anon for This* January 17, 2025 at 12:56 pm You don’t say what they do in their work so it’s kind of hard to say, but give them assignments to do. E.g, if they are going to an external meeting: Please find out when supported person/entity plans to begin x project. Meet named person and ask them about y. Take notes of the meeting and write a summary report. Those kinds of things. Someone who is shy may just hang out by the coffee and not talk to anyone unless they have to – these kinds of things may help. One boss I knew actually went so far as to plant some information with a friend of his and assigned shy guy to ask about it – that way he knew that shy guy had actually talked to him and didn’t just eavesdrop on someone else’s conversation.
deesse877* January 17, 2025 at 2:14 pm I teach at the university level and feel confident offering you two specifics strategies: a) Make sure that younger employees know that required software knowledge, including use of e-mail if that applies, is really required, and serves important purposes (not just a hoop to jump through). Most use only social media platforms personally, and these days educational environments through the graduate level tend to use “learning management systems” that emulate the frictionlessness of social media, and don’t resemble the workplace at all. UNless they’ve already had an internship or professional job, the reliance of most workplaces on non-intuitive, sometimes cumbersome archives– e-mail, internal file systems–will come as a real surprise. b) Related to the first: make sure that younger employees know that independent problem-solving is both necessary and helpful. Many may perceive it as disrespectful or unhelpful to try to figure out something on their own, and most will need to build skills in, e.g., googling solutions for software glitches. Like others replying to your initial question, I perceive a lot of judgment in your initial question and your hostile replies, mostly because you haven’t actually said why being “shy” and “awkward” are minuses for you, and so it comes across as a personal caprice on your part. I think that’s worth underlining, because if you come across that way to the new employees themselves, it’ll obviously be counter-productive. The things that I mentioned, though–tell them that they really have to use the tools that you have provided, and tell them that they really have to think for themselves–are hard to anticipate, since they seem so obvious. I initially felt like it was just a personality thing when I couldn’t get my students to freaking follow directions or advocate for themselves, but eventually a few of them trusted me enough to explain that my specific asks seemed weird and foreign to them. My sense is that lockdown was a profoundly infantilizing experience for most children and young adults, and that many of the shifts it created (such as extremely dumbed-down and authoritarian teaching styles) have persisted. IN short, your empathy has to be radical because it’s actually really hard to anticipate what the kids need.
CTT* January 17, 2025 at 11:32 am Lawyers of AAM, what to do when a client is just…the worst? Not in an ethical way, just extremely difficult to deal with. I was engaged to do a very fact-intensive regulatory filing for a client and they have (1) changed their mind several times on who will even be the filing party, (2) will not read anything I send them and so they keep asking questions they should already have a handle on at this stage in the process, and (3) have not sent me any of the information I need for the filing, even though they demand that it must be done by early next week (it usually takes me 2-3 weeks to put everything together and get feedback on the draft filing and finalize. And the filing itself is a half-day process). I’ve sent lots of emails with action items lists and simplified it down as much as possible, but nothing is getting through to them. I suppose I can be content in just billing them for the fourth time of explaining a very basic concept, but it’s so frustrating!
My Brain is Exploding* January 17, 2025 at 12:17 pm Assuming you don’t care if you keep them or not, you didn’t say. If you can, start raising your rates to them (either hourly billables or specific rates for specific items – depends on how you/your firm work these out). They may seek different counsel. If not, at least you will feel better about doing something so frustrating. Or you could have a meeting with them and lay out everything, stating then IN WRITING (which you may already do) that regulatory items MUST be turned in to you by X dates ahead of time and that if they aren’t, then your billing rate doubles. They may leave over that. My lawyer friend just worked thru this with a client and essentially fired them.
Ginger Baker* January 17, 2025 at 12:30 pm IANAL but I do work with them (and clients) all the time, in a role where I have to get information from people I have no real power over. So! My advice would be, schedule a “working call” where you get on the phone and talk through it all live…and sit on the phone while your client finds and emails various docs to you. Obvs bill for the whole thing, plus prep time and time after to process everything! If you can keep them on the phone and not let them go until everything you need is checked off, you should (albeit it tediously) make progress. Good luck!
Strive to Excel* January 17, 2025 at 12:33 pm Yup. Some people just do not process digital information well and do better with a phone call. Or being in person.
CTT* January 17, 2025 at 12:35 pm Oh I love a phone call in general and a check list call in particular. Unfortunately my repeated requests for one have been ignored.
Ginger Baker* January 17, 2025 at 12:48 pm Honestly…you know your situation better than anyone here, but I am not above resorting to unscheduled repeated chasing calls, depending on the urgency (and “I need 20 work hours to complete this and we are now 4 days away and I don’t have the info, so while I COULD squeeze it in, theoretically, getting this info tomorrow or the next day, it would close to kill me” IS URGENT). I would also consider escalating to other people at the client’s office (their admin of course is a key person to connect with, but also, is there anyone else who could potentially provide this info? or, someone above your contact who can chase? Clearly that last is a serious escalation but sometimes Needs Must.)
BigLawEx* January 19, 2025 at 10:11 pm First have you sent a CYA letter. You can’t care more than they do. Otherwise are you a solo? If so, then you send your letter and maybe fire your client. If you’re with a firm, I’d escalate to in house counsel who deals with potential malpractice stuff. Not that you’re committing malpractice, but they can take certain steps to protect the firm from claims that you didn’t do what was necessary by the filing date. Firms are different because filing the client is not always a solution depending on a million different issues.
Hotdog not dog* January 17, 2025 at 11:33 am My current boss just ranted about how he hates to micromanage, and with zero irony, without even pausing for a breath in between, told me to change the color coding I use on my task list because he feels that red is too aggressive. (I use red for urgent, yellow for important but not urgent, and green for needs to be done at the next convenient moment). We then spent 40 minutes choosing a color scheme more to his liking. For MY task list. Now he is upset because the orange (formerly red) items are still incomplete. All I can say to this is that I am very glad it’s Friday and Monday is a holiday!
LuckyPurpleSocks* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm I feel you. My current supervisor leans hard towards micromanagement when he is feeling overwhelmed. I’ve sometimes had success by pushing back gently with the cheerfully spoken phrase “I’m happy to keep discussing [the exact number of salt and pepper packets we need for the catered lunch or whatever], but is focusing on this task the best use of your time as the [Formal Title]?”
Rosey* January 17, 2025 at 10:01 pm I had a boss once who didn’t even realise that micromanaging was not a desirable thing. She would announce “oh, I guess I need to micromanage so-and-so” without a trace of irony if her anxiety decided they were not performing to her standard. One of the worst bosses I’ve ever had. And all the micromanaging took up more and more of her time, which made her unable to do the things she was supposed to use her time for, which made her more anxious, which lead to more micromanaging.
anonynonon* January 18, 2025 at 4:24 pm Similar experience recently. Several people in a meeting raised a concern that there seemed to be some unspoken expectations from upper management – where it was clear from the behavior Management had something specific in mind, but what they were actually communicating was extremely vague. The group hadn’t found a way to get Management to actually communicate what it is they want. Less than a minute later, the highest ranking person in the room, when asked about what this group was going to be doing for a specific project answer in the most vague, double-speak, lots of words but no actual information answer I’ve ever heard. It sounded like satire, but was his real answer.
Quandry, perhaps of my own making* January 17, 2025 at 11:33 am A longtime colleague who I consider a friend only works from home rarely, but over the past few months, when he does and I have a call with him, he seems, well drunk. Slurring, stumbling over words, showing up for meetings late and unprepared, none of which occur in-office. This has now happened the last 3-4 times he has WFH. This person has a long history of not taking even the most gentle feedback from me well, so I don’t think expressing concern directly is the way to go. Our mutual direct supervisor is on leave so we’re both currently reporting to our grandboss. HR is incompetent, and the person I trust most to raise the issue with is grandboss, but even though that’s the person I want to tell from a “compassionate human” angle, bringing speculation of something this significant to the C-suite seems extreme. I’m not sure what I’m asking for, exactly, but any insights would be appreciated…
Rick Tq* January 17, 2025 at 11:49 am If it only happens if they work at home there may be an issue there. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a silent problem and with the cold temperatures we are keeping our houses closed and running the furnace a lot more.
Reba* January 17, 2025 at 12:19 pm Bringing up this possibility might give you some cover with the coworker, while also signaling to them that no, they are not hiding it well.
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:50 am Unless there is something that affects your job (for example, being unprepared for a meeting means that the goals of the meeting weren’t accomplished), I wouldn’t bring it up. If there are things that directly affect your job, bring it up to grandboss without speculating on why your colleague is unprepared or whatever. Just state the facts and ask for guidance on how to proceed.
Alex* January 17, 2025 at 11:55 am I would stay out of it. You aren’t his manager, and if he is someone who doesn’t take feedback well, it’s hard to see him as being someone who will appreciate your bringing his problems to the attention of the C-suite. You say he is a friend, but if you think approaching him in person would blow up in your face, it would probably not go any better by reporting him to the grandboss. If you MUST say something out of concern, say it to him directly, and expect it to not go well.
Cordelia* January 17, 2025 at 12:01 pm why do you want to tell someone? It doesn’t sound like you feel you are close enough friends to be able to raise this with him on a personal level, so although you might care about him there’s not a lot you can do there. Is his work performance affecting you and your work? In which case you need to bring it up with your manager, but keep it focused on work and not on speculation. “Bob was late for the meeting and didn’t have the XYZ report so I wasn’t able to complete the ABC project”. If it’s not affecting you, leave it to your manager to address his lateness and lack of preparation.
Slow Gin Lizz* January 17, 2025 at 12:04 pm I would focus on the fact that he’s unprepared for meetings and shows up late, rather than say that he appears drunk. If he’s speaking incoherently, that’s relevant too, but if he’s just stumbling over words, that might not be worth bringing up. Fwiw, there are medical conditions that can cause this as well, not just drunkenness, which is why I’d focus on the behavior and the impact on the business needs rather than tell grandboss you think he’s been drunk. For all you know, he’s been WFH *because* he has a medical condition, even if that seems the less likely explanation.
Rocky* January 17, 2025 at 6:24 pm It could also be that he is taking meds that have these side effects (well, bot the lateness!), and he only takes them when he WFH because he knows the side effects. Which doesn’t mean you shouldn’t talk to him, just that you might not want to imply he’s been drinking.
BuildMeUp* January 17, 2025 at 12:41 pm If you bring it up to him directly, I would frame it as friendly concern and leave any speculation out of it. Like, “Coworker, can I talk to you about something? I’ve noticed [X behavior – lateness, etc.] and it’s really unlike you. Is everything okay? Is there anything I can help with?” I wouldn’t mention the slurring of words, and I definitely wouldn’t suggest that they’re drunk. As someone else mentioned, it’s possible they have a medical condition or that something else is going on (extreme tiredness, etc.). If you don’t feel comfortable bringing it up to them at all, I’m not sure if there’s a way to raise it with your grandboss without potentially getting your coworker in trouble, though.
Dwight Beets* January 17, 2025 at 11:35 am Vent post. I’m just super burnt out. My employer just cannot get pay salaries as promised. I’ve been owed money for years. Now my paycheques are just weird amounts, with odd amounts deducted or added with no explanation, and there’s no one to answer questions anymore. If you call the Pay Centre, you only get a receptionist who emphasizes and agrees to make a note that you’ve called. They don’t even assign someone to call you back. Now when my boss asks me to do anything, my first thought is always, “if we can never meet service standards for pay, why are my own timelines so important to meet?” I want to confront her and say, “I thought this department has decided deadlines aren’t important anymore?” And funnily enough, my employer is always doing things like, “please complete this survey on how we can be an employer of choice for the LGBTQ+ crowd.” Ok let’s walk before we run folks.
Antilles* January 17, 2025 at 11:48 am I assume you’re not in the US based on your spelling, so I need to ask: Do you have a Department of Labor or equivalent who is responsible for enforcing paycheck laws? If you’re not sure, do some Google research about “London paycheck law” (or whatever) and see what you can track down. At least here in the US, paycheck law is pretty damn clear that you have to be paid within X days of the end of the pay period…and merely mentioning that to your payroll department can get results even from a normally-slow bureaucracy.
flora_poste* January 17, 2025 at 11:36 am I think I’m about to be offered a job at a partner organisation. Should I take it? Please help! Pros: – Slightly more senior position – More $$$ – More stable contract (2 years; my current contract is up last this year and may or may not be renewed) – It’s a very focused organisation working on one particular issue, so I would gain more specialised expertise in the substance. Cons: – I love my current team/manager, and I am not sure about the new org. I don’t know who my immediate manager would be (although I imagine they will be someone I know – it’s a small pool), and my to-be grandboss is due to leave in the coming month, so there will be a lot of turmoil. – My current role is broad on issues, so I’m not at all penned in in the same way I might be working on just one issue. – The issue in question is quite intense, politically polarised, and difficult. I have strong interest in it, but there will be many people working in the space who have a VERY strong passion for it (which might be A Lot). Potentially relevant info: – My current org might have redundancies/restructure coming up. My role has been said to be ‘mission critical’, but I imagine if I leave it they wouldn’t be able to recruit it, so the team would lose it.
Teacher* January 17, 2025 at 6:00 pm The potential redundancies at your current org, a 2 year v. a 1-year contract, and more money (unless it’s not very much) would all weigh heavily for me, unless there was a very good chance the other job would be outright toxic. It may vary for you depending on how many months of savings you have.
Mango* January 20, 2025 at 12:10 am if you don’t think your current role would be re-hired after restructuring/layoffs, I would very seriously consider whether you are safe from them…esp if your contact is up for renewal.
Justin* January 17, 2025 at 11:36 am I’ve been puzzling on something, I wonder what you all think – I believe that a lot of ineffiency is caused by a confusion between things that are complicated vs things that are complex. What I mean is, these two things are used as synonyms but they aren’t. Complicated things follow patterns. They may have many moving parts that you need expertise to understand, but they don’t change all that much. Like, trains are complicated – you couldn’t build one. But they’re not that complex to use. You get on. You get off. Any sort of machine is this way. Watches, etc. Complex things are much harder to predict. Anything involving human behavior usually falls in here. Communication, and so forth. Politics, in fact. I am saying all this to say, when we apply linear (ie, meant for complicated things) solutions to dynamic (ie complex) issues, we spin in circles forever. I fully understand why we do this, because accepting the inability to predict things is hard. It’s why economists still struggle to accept human irrationality. All this is to say, I run into this issue a lot at work, as an educator of professionals/adults. I am trying to build trainings on topics that are BOTH complicated and complex. And my approach is to be very direct about the complicated stuff – it’s not easy but if you practice, you can learn. Whereas I believe that the complex parts are mostly learned through experience and time. Frankly, as a qualitative research in my spare time, it’s why I only do interviews rather than trying to predict. This is a lot of words to say, I wonder if you can think about times when you or your job tried to apply a linear solution to a complex problem and had it blow up in their face, or vice versa – sometimes there really is just one way to use a system and you need to learn which buttons to press. Anyway, just a work-related thought I was having this morning. I work tangentially in lending, and I feel as though underwriting is complicated, but the relationship between funders and borrowers is complex, and we often confuse the two, which helps no one.
Angstrom* January 17, 2025 at 12:02 pm Interesting. I was just having a discussion with a colleague about the difference between “simple” and “easy”. We were talking about designing and building a fluid delivery system that had to maintain constant pressure across a wide range of flow rates. The task is simple — clearly defined, well understood, requires no new inventions or technology — but we know from experience that getting it right — and proving it — will take several iterations and a LOT of testing. It won’t be easy.
Justin* January 17, 2025 at 12:41 pm That is basically the same thing from the opposite angle. It’s not 1 to 1 but I’d say there’s a spectrum from simple to complicated and a spectrum from easy to complex (or difficult), and the two criss cross in ways that make life the thing that it is.
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 12:08 pm I worked years ago at a chemical testing laboratory. They would test things looking for specified chemicals. Most of that is complicated, but yes, you put the sample in a machine and it checks and you get an answer. Different tests had different machines. They also tested for radioactive chemicals, and that was complex. You had to understand what was going on, the chemistry was more hands-on, you had to interpret the data, had to do complex math on the results. I am not a chemist, but my spouse also worked there as a radiochemist. New management came in and wanted to treat both the analytical chemistry and the radiochemistry departments the same, wanted similar procedures and processes. They couldn’t understand what you’re describing above, that complicated and complex were not the same, and could not be treated the same. It didn’t go well. We both left.
Justin* January 17, 2025 at 12:44 pm I think of AI this way too. (I don’t wanna talk about the environmental impact, I’m making a point.) What it should be able to help us with is things that are complicated. It doesn’t know any more than it’s been told, but it should be able to arrange things in an order, etc etc. But we’re insisting we can use it for complex things (hiring, writing) and it is very very very bad at this because WE are bad at it (overall, individuals are good at it).
Part time lab tech* January 18, 2025 at 1:45 am I think the problem with AI is that it tends towards both averages and a form of a randomness. It’s like fast fashion. It is very hard to find an average person physically but clothes are made for average and so they fit ok but not well but they can be made cheaply. In the same way, AI can fit ok and the randomness can appear to be innovation, but 2 or 3 experienced people will do a much better job, but cost more time and money to do so.
sdog* January 17, 2025 at 11:37 am I’d say this varies so much from one workplace to the next and also even internally from one manager to the next. Mine is pretty flexible but asks that we be generally available during the regular workday (I’m not public facing but do work with others who or who work standard business hours and rely on me to be available). So while I manage my own time, I communicate if I know I’ll significantly veer from the schedule. Boss is flexible if I say that I need to flex my schedule, for example, during school breaks (and the reality is that she likely wouldn’t notice anyway), but I let her know her anyway and make sure that I’m putting in the time even if it’s not during the normal hours. If I’m cutting out for short periods to say, pick up a kid or drop kid off to an activity, I don’t announce it and don’t usually make up the time. Today, for example, I’ll likely put in some solid time from 10-4 and call it good. If I’m running late here or there, or need to leave a bit early, I don’t mention it. I have evening meetings often, and those days, I come in late that day or the following day without announcing. I often take longer breaks or take calls while I’m out walking during lunch. Since I often get pulled into meetings, I’ll block off times that I might need for personal appointments and errands but won’t necessarily make up that time later. I work for a government agency, so I do have to report hours, but I rarely track it closely and just put full 8 hour days regardless of what I actually work (unless I’ve requested leave). All that being said, I also often work a lot more than 40 hours. If things need to get done, I do them, even if it means late nights or weekends. I am the only person that does what I do in my group/agency, so it’d be obvious if it didn’t get done. This is why I feel comfortable “slacking” off at other times. I’m conscientious about getting everything done and being communicative where I feel it’s needed, and I like to think those qualities over the years have earned me the flexibility that I now have. I also think I have a reasonable boss and if I ever felt that my workload was requiring me to eat up too many hours, she’d find a way to get me help.
Sarashina* January 17, 2025 at 11:38 am I don’t know that there’s a good answer to this, but would love to hear all of your thoughts! My department recently had to re-post a job, as the first search failed when the two finalists had to drop out. My direct report really, really wants this position. The problem is… he was already turned down for this position last time around because he did not have the right experience. This was about a month ago, so nothing has really changed. I’ve had a few honest talks with him about his chances, but he’d still really like to apply ‘just in case,’ and he doesn’t seem at all convinced that his experience still isn’t there – he thinks that he’d figure it out if they gave him a chance. Do I just need to let this happen? Is there any other advice I can give him?
Honoria Lucasta* January 17, 2025 at 11:51 am Would it hurt his standing in the company to submit an application again? Or would it just be a waste of his time / a potential disappointment? If the first, I think you should explain to him that since he was not selected a month ago, it would look like he has really poor judgment if he threw his hat in the ring again so soon when his application hasn’t changed substantially in any way. Lay out the professional consequences clearly and then let him decide. If it’s going to waste his time and potentially set him up to be disappointed in the company without actually creating professional blowback, I would be more inclined to leave it at what you’ve already said. He seems intent on applying anyway, and he is the one who has to manage his own time/emotions/expectations. You’ve given him the information and he can do with it what he wants.
WorkerDrone* January 17, 2025 at 11:57 am Have you been blunt that, if contacted as a reference, you’ll need to be honest about his lack of experience and that you don’t see him as a good fit at this time? Even if he could convince the hiring committee to re-interview him and give him a chance, knowing that he won’t get a good reference for this specific position may be enough to convince him. You might also (if this is true in your org) let him know that re-applying to a position he’s already been turned down for so soon would flag him as someone who doesn’t understand the position needs, or his own current place in his career, and that it could hurt future employment chances that he IS qualified for? I know at my organization, someone continuing to apply in these circumstances would get a reputation as someone who just doesn’t get it, and that would stick with them (whereas someone who took a shot once, but gracefully accepted the “no” would not have that issue). If he STILL insists, I don’t think there is anything you can do.
Tio* January 17, 2025 at 5:10 pm This will depend a bit on company culture. In my company, it would probably hurt his chances if he reapplied in such a short period of time with no skill growth, because the needs haven’t changed, just the candidates, and it indicates a misunderstanding of what they’re looking for. He’s probably thinking that they might be willing to take a lesser candidate now that they’ve gone through the pool, but that’s not necessarily the case. Since this is internal, can you speak privately with the hiring manager behind the scenes and ask her what her feelings would be on him? In more of a “he was wondering if the qualifications had relaxed due to the lack of candidates, and if so, would still be interested.” If she does not seem favorable, absolutely he should not reapply, but if she does say she’s willing to reconsider, then he can reapply afterward, if needed. (I’m betting it’s going to be the former and not the latter, though.)
ABC123* January 17, 2025 at 7:34 pm Has nothing really changed? Is there a chance that the hiring group would change the standards or be willing to take people with different types of experience since the first search failed or would that only happen after multiple failed searches, if then
Random Academic Cog* January 17, 2025 at 11:53 pm Won’t help this time, but I’ve seen this used often: “This is a reposting. Previous candidates need not apply.” We have a similar employee. Applies for everything. Does not understand why he’s never the pick. Which is part of why he’s never the pick.
fhqwhgads* January 18, 2025 at 4:43 pm “As we discussed, you don’t have the experience required for the role. It has only been a month. That’s not enough time to have developed the experience significantly. I cannot stop you from applying, but I wanted to be up front with you, your candidacy is not stronger now than it was last time.”
New overtime rules* January 17, 2025 at 11:38 am I am in Germany, not a manager. Exempt/non-exempt does not apply. We all have contracts for 35 hours / week, but most of us regularly work more. If necessary and approved in advance, we can get time off for overtime, not overtime pay. The law requires that time worked be clocked in some way. This is a fairly recent change and has not yet been implemented in the company. We employees have been pushing for a time clock for some time in order to make clear how much overtime is worked. In December, the following plan was announced: Time will be recorded in some way. The first 3.5 hours of overtime per week are “for the house” and won’t be compensated in any form. The second 3.5 hours per week can be taken as extra PTO within a certain time frame. Additional overtime up to 7 hours per week (I think) can be approved in advance or retroactively within reason (that at least is an improvement). We were asked to sign an addendum to our contracts agreeing to the above. As might be expected, there was a lot of pushback to this plan and several alternatives were suggested by the employees. No addenda have been presented yet. Management has run whatever they’ve come up with by a lawyer and had to revise it (allegedly because the way they planned to record hours worked was not legal). The new plan will be announced on Tuesday. I’m interested in y’all’s opinions/reactions – especially from those who are also in Germany. (The reason for the 35 hour week is that when the company was founded the pay was so low – and the idealism so high – that codifying more hours seemed really off. 37.5 or 38 would have been typical.)
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 12:06 pm I’m not German but Swedish but Sweden is also a heavily unionized country. Not compensating you for the first 3.5 hours sounds very weird. I’m trying to think of ways to write a contract that would make that possible. Have you discussed this with a union rep, if you have one available or if anyone of you is a member of one? You might also have a federal or state labor board/agency you might be able to contact.
New overtime rules* January 17, 2025 at 12:38 pm We are not unionized. Not compensating the first 3.5 hours is what the addendum is supposed to cover. We were encouraged to sign, but no one has to. We haven’t been told yet what the final deal is. If it comes through as announced I will be either working 35 hour weeks or 42 hour weeks, but not staying late now and again.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 1:14 pm I don’t know exactly how it works in Germany but here you can get legal advice from unions even if your particular workplace isn’t unionized. Even with the addendum, it’s a very strange setup that seems overly complicated.
amoeba* January 20, 2025 at 8:05 am I’m late but if you’re still reading – don’t know anything about the legal side, but having x hours of overtime per week included in the salary is unfortunately pretty common both in Germany (where I’m from) and in Switzerland (where I work). We don’t have it, but I know of multiple major companies in my field who do. A quick Google search shows me that it is, indeed, legal, as long as there’s a maximum stated – so, “all overtime is covered by salary” would not be legal, but your “3.5 h per week are covered by salary” would be.
amoeba* January 20, 2025 at 8:06 am https://www.advocard.de/streitlotse/arbeit-und-karriere/arbeitszeit/ueberstunden/ueberstunden-mit-gehalt-abgegolten-ist-das-rechtens/ (In German, I assume you speak German?)
WellRed* January 17, 2025 at 12:36 pm What is the point of having a contract if the company doesn’t abide by it? And what’s up with 3.5 hours “for the house?” I assume your company sucks because n other ways?
New overtime rules* January 17, 2025 at 12:44 pm Good question. The company was founded with a great deal of idealism and many of us continue to bring idealism. In spite of everything, this is the best job I’ve ever had and I still believe in the mission. For me, it doesn’t suck. Others would disagree. That said, the 3.5 hours for the house really disappointed me, especially the fact that the have to brought each week before PTO can be earned. As I said above, if that goes through, I’ll either be working 35 hours or 42.
WFH4VR* January 17, 2025 at 3:49 pm I would not sign any contract that states I am required to work for free.
ForComparison* January 17, 2025 at 5:52 pm I’m in the US and my only experience with getting compensation for overtime was the first 10 hours in a week were free, after that you got 30 minutes for every hour of overtime (as an exempt salaried employee in a state that required a minimum of this level of comp time). However, like all time off you needed manager approval to actually take the time and it was never granted. So it was just vaporware (it expired quarterly and didn’t get paid out when you left).
NotSoRecentlyRetired* January 19, 2025 at 11:15 am Not in Germany, but I thought this confusing process would be interesting to the readers. I worked for a US, Government contracting company. I was salary, exempt. We were working 80 hours over 2 weeks (9 hrs M-Th, 8 hrs first Fri, off on 2nd week’s Fri). Hours after the first 40 on the first week were put on the 2nd week, so each week was recorded as 40 hrs. (sort-of having each work-week start at noon on Friday) (with management approval, you could work M-F, 8 hrs/day, but only if that was also beneficial to the program you were working.) OT of 8 hrs was paid if you put over 48 hrs on the pay week. If your timecard had less than 48 hrs, you only got regular pay, but you could flex the time to future. Pushing the time out too far could result in reprimand from management and/or timekeeping, and you couldn’t push it out into the next calendar year. We needed to have very accurate time accounting because, on most programs, the government was billed based on each hour worked. Union/non-exempt employees were paid OT on each hour over 40 per week on timecard. No flex time had been negotiated. There were literally pages and pages of documentation, with screen shots, of how to record your time worked. There were employees who still didn’t understand it after years of working at the company.
Looking for Misogyny Papers/Resources* January 17, 2025 at 11:39 am I am trying to recreate something I made a decade or so when I worked in a different agency where sexism was rampant, very gross, and not dealt with until it hit the front page of national media. Of course, in the assorted moves and computer changes since, I can’t seem to find my original. I had made a table that had a column with the general “type” of behavior (benevolent sexism, mansplaining, manpeating, internalized misogyny, etc), a column with a high level definition, a column with high level of why it was bad, a column with links to articles that were both very scientific & ones that were more accessible like some Captain Awkward, and then a column with bulleted examples seen in that office. I also had a link to a university’s implicit bias tests that I would dearly love to find again… I could have sworn it was Cornell but I can’t locate it. They had multiple tests on all sorts of implicit biases… they were basically ask you a question and then you had to click as fast as you could through a series of flashed up photos of who was most likely to XYZ. Thankfully, I am now in a fantastic office/agency where it isn’t an issue, but a friend is now dealing with a similar issue where every man in the office truly believes they are feminists and definitely do call out any behavior they see in other men that is obvious, but they exhibit a ton of subtle things that are really holding women back there. Everything from it just being a given that the men will drive the 4×4 on field visits and the men being given the late shifts so the women aren’t working alone after dark, to it just being assumed that the women will make the coffee & be the ones to take the meeting notes/schedule meetings. Anything you guys could direct me to so I’m not recreating from scratch including locating the research/articles would be much appreciated!
ThursdaysGeek* January 17, 2025 at 12:11 pm I remember taking an online test like you are describing, and I think it was Cornell as well, if that helps. But it was years ago.
Jay (no, the other one)* January 17, 2025 at 12:16 pm The implicit bias test is Harvard – a search for implicit bias Harvard brings it right up.
Looking* January 18, 2025 at 1:16 am Thank you! Not being able to relocate it has been driving me nuts, but searching on implicit bias test without a university name always returned more results than I had time/patience to search through
BigLawEx* January 19, 2025 at 10:24 pm I have to laugh because I went to Cornell and definitely remember these were from Harvard.
Ginger Baker* January 17, 2025 at 12:43 pm …I don’t have any great links (although DO recommend to everyone that they read The Al Capone Theory of Sexual Harassment!) but would ABSOLUTLEY LOVE if you wanted to share this once you reconstruct it.
Nightengale* January 18, 2025 at 12:27 pm as others have said it’s the Harvard implicit bias tests I am just flagging here if you are looking at sexism through a lens of intersectionality (which we all should be) those tests have some accessibility issues. I do a lot of anti-bias work and ironically I can’t take the tests because I don’t have the visual processing speed and hand/eye coordination to recognize pictures and click on things. I’ve been in a few diversity spaces that imply that you haven’t really confronted your implicit “isms” until you have taken those tests and well, I’ve tried!
This is Just a Vent* January 17, 2025 at 11:43 am I am from an area that was decimated by wildfires and then mudslides few years ago. It’s somewhat recovered but not entirely. I now work across the country at a national organization that has asked me to be in charge of our org’s response to the wildfire situation in LA, and I am floundering. My brain would prefer not to. I spent a whole day Pinteresting on my phone this week because I just cannot. It’s not because I don’t care, it’s because I still have PTSD from the wildfires in my hometown. People at my org want to talk about it ALL THE TIME in a way that feels like disaster tourism to me. I am really struggling with it all. I just needed to vent.
Hlao-roo* January 17, 2025 at 11:55 am I’m sorry you’re going through this right now :( I know you said your post was just a vent, so skip the rest of my comment if you’re not open to any advice. Is it possible to ask your organization for someone else to be in charge of the response to the LA wildfires? “Because of the wildfires and mudslides in [area where you’re from], I don’t think I’m the best person to handle the response to the current LA wildfires. Emotionally, it hits too close to home for me.”
This is Just a Vent* January 17, 2025 at 12:50 pm Unfortunately, they picked me BECAUSE of that and it’s supposed to be an “honor”. I have a fair amount of sway but not on this apparently. The org just DOES NOT get it.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 11:58 am Are you able to decline or do you have to do it? It sounds like a very difficult situation and I don’t blame you for not wanting to do something that is deeply traumatic to you. I think most reasonable people would accept that as a valid reason to turn this down but I realize you might not be in a situation where you’re able to say no. If you have to do it, are you able to perhaps see a therapist who can help you with some distancing techniques?
This is Just a Vent* January 17, 2025 at 12:51 pm Unfortunately not :( this is a special project that I am supposed to be “honored” to do. They do not get it at all.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 12:02 pm Huh, I wrote a comment but it must’ve gotten eaten. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this and I wouldn’t want to do it either if I was in your shoes. I do think most reasonable bosses would see a deep trauma like this as a valid reason to turn it down but I realize you might not be in a situation where it’s possible to decline. I hope you can though.
This is Just a Vent* January 17, 2025 at 12:52 pm That’s the really messed up part – they picked me because I’ve been through it and think I should be “honored”.
Manders* January 17, 2025 at 1:07 pm I would just keep pushing back on that. Just because they call it an honor doesn’t make it true.
Productivity Pigeon* January 17, 2025 at 1:12 pm Oh wow. That’s… something else. I’m sorry you can’t turn it down, it’s a really awful position for them to put you in. Some people are just so clueless and tactless!
saskia* January 17, 2025 at 3:29 pm You keep saying that you have to do this because “they picked you.” Have you actually said no? Tell them you cannot take on this project. Be resolute and forceful. Not sure who “they” are, but if your direct manager isn’t involved, get them involved and get their help in supporting your refusal. “I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear originally — I cannot do this special project. I need to hand over these duties to another person as soon as possible. Please let me know that is so I can schedule a handover meeting.”
saskia* January 17, 2025 at 3:30 pm just realized the title of your post is “just a vent,” so sorry for offering advice. That said, maybe it’s useful to you anyway? Good luck.
This is Just a Vent* January 17, 2025 at 3:47 pm Yes, I am sure for reasons I’d rather not describe because it could be identifying.
Keep pushing back* January 18, 2025 at 2:10 am I agree. Make clear to them that this is emotionally taxing and you need to not do it. That a person with personal trauma will not be equipped to fully focus on the mission because they will be busy managing their own response. I am so sorry for you. I know this sounds really difficult right now, but at some point it will sink in and you can hopefully protect yourself from this.
allathian* January 18, 2025 at 12:22 am Have you tried saying that straight out? As in, “I know I’m supposed to feel ‘honored’ by this, but the wildfires hit too close to home for me.” You may be forced to work with the relief program, but try to change the subject whenever the wildfires are mentioned in a conversation with you. And maybe you should start looking for another job? In any case, I recommend seeing a therapist to help you deal with it all. That doesn’t have to mean seeing someone once a week for years. In some cases, 5 sessions might be enough to give you some tools to help you.
Emily Elizabeth* January 17, 2025 at 11:44 am Informational interview question: does anyone have recommendations of what to actually say in an email request to take someone out to coffee? I’ve read Alison’s advice on how to prepare for the actual interview itself to hopefully not be a waste of time, but am not sure how much to say or not in my request. Specifically if relevant, I work in early childhood education and am wanting to learn more about pediatric occupational therapy. There is a nature-based pediatric OT in my town whose work I have followed and admired on social media for a while. I recently learned they have volunteers and I reached out asking about volunteer opportunities, and learned there are no current opportunities but she will add me to the email list. I would love to still meet up with her sooner and ask her some questions about her path and/or shadow but am feeling very awkward about it! Thanks y’all!
LuckyPurpleSocks* January 17, 2025 at 12:50 pm Maybe something like this (customized by you, of course) “Hello [Dr LastName/Ms LastName, My name is FirstName LastName. We spoke briefly over email/the phone about possible volunteer opportunities at your clinic, and I appreciate being added to the email list. I currently work in early childhood education, and I want to continuing my education in/get a degree in/learn more about pediatric occupational therapy. The information and practices shared on your clinic’s social media and website have been very inspirational. I’m sure you are extremely busy, but I wanted to ask if you would be available for a 20 minute zoom or phone call to chat about the educational and professional path that led you to [clinic name], as I aspire to work in a similar organization in the future [if true] and would love some advice on how to get started. Thank you very much for your time. LastName First Name” I wouldn’t ask to shadow her right off the bat, since you haven’t started volunteering with them yet. Be aware that you might not get a response, or the answer might be “no/not now”, in which case you would respond “