open thread – January 3, 2025

by Alison Green on January 3, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Anon for this*

    When does favoritism become something more? I’m in the US.
    1. 5-6 men (all 30ish) hired within past 9 months that share same heritage as foreign-born owner. They are in multiple departments.
    2. These guys (aka favored group) are allowed to WFH when no one else is able to except for owners. Much more vacation time than other employees with same length of employment. 4-5 weeks instead of the 2 weeks everyone else gets (until you’ve been there 5 years, then you get 3 weeks). We know all this as they talk about WFH, how much vacation time they get, etc. No one seems to have told them to be quiet. I thought they were working out of another local office as I’d never met them.
    3. What makes me think this might have crossed the line from just favoritism is that two women in their 60s requested hybrid schedules due to chronic medical conditions. They requested accommodations under ADA. Owner/HR said no. The women have been with company 15-20 years and did the same job while WFH during pandemic.

    What is your take? One of the women is investigating getting an employment attorney.

    1. Trotwood*

      An employer is definitely required to avoid situations where better benefits are allocated to members of a specific gender/race/national group even if they claim there’s a different reason why those people are receiving better benefits. Sounds appropriate to consult with a lawyer.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Just a note that in the USA, EEOC laws kick in when employers have 15 or more employees. (EEOC laws are the ones that make it illegal to discriminate against an employee because of the person’s race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability or genetic information.) If the company Anon for this works for has fewer than 15 employees, this could potentially be legal.* Bad, but legal.

        *Some states have similar state-level laws that apply to businesses smaller than 15 employees, so check on that if this is a <15 employee business.

        1. Tio*

          If there’s 5-6 men ad they’re in multiple departments, I’m betting they’ll slide over the 15 rule.

          In which case, yeah, this sounds like discrimination. As well as failure to meet ADA standards. If this is the case, you can either speak to a lawyer (possibly with a small group, like the ADA women and a few others not in the racial group who are privileged who would be willing) and then take the legal case to the owner with the lawyer. That said, it costs money and will almost undoubtedly implode your working life. Retaliation is illegal in theory but in practice to hold them accountable you’d have to talk to a lawyer… again.

          So this definitely sounds illegal but also will depend on whether you can afford to fight with the company. Which sucks.

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            All the employment lawyers I’ve met just take a percentage of the settlement or award.

    3. Rage*

      When they requested accommodations under ADA – did the owner flat-out refuse to engage in the interactive process entirely? If that’s the case, then it doesn’t matter if it’s favoritism or not, he’s not following ADA.

      1. Orora*

        This right here. The employer must engage in an interactive process to determine accommodations. That doesn’t mean the employee can dictate the accommodations, but it does require the company to make a good faith effort to find something that works for both of them. If the people were performing the work remotely in the past, it does make it harder to believe it would be an undue burden on the employer to accommodate at least a partial WFH accommodation.

      2. Anon for this*

        From what both women told me, the owner/HR refused to follow a process. Answer was just a flat NO. Neither woman originally asked for full time WFH and negotiated down to hybrid. Their original request was hybrid. Our jobs are totally possible to do remote, as the favored group shows by WFH full time. Owner has a butts in seats mentality.

    4. Llellayena*

      This sounds like it was a legal issue even before the ADA accommodation denial, though the denial is what probably makes it viable for a “winnable” legal case. A group of people of the same heritage receiving better benefits and perks based solely on that and not on job type or seniority means discrimination against all other employees. The fact that it’s all men doesn’t help, though if there are other men in the office not getting the extras that’s a tiny bit weaker. The nail in the coffin was the ADA denial, because WFH was provided to the one group and therefore is not an unreasonable burden on the company so the denial does seem discriminatory (both from ADA and sexism sides).

      1. Lady Danbury*

        100% this. Special benefits only to people of the same ethnic/national background is illegal, even without any gender issues at play.

    5. HonorBox*

      It sure seems like this is more than just favoritism. The additional perks seem so far out of balance especially when all of the new hires are around the same age and share the same heritage as the owner.

      I’d love hearing the owner’s justification or “justification” in denying the ADA accommodations. It may not be apples an oranges to the new hires (different job functions, for instance) but it is telling that the women were able to do the job just fine during the pandemic while WFH.

      1. Malarkey01*

        Just a caution that “able to do the job just fine during the pandemic” is not holding up in the courts so far. Most of the employer arguments have been that it was not just fine but they made concessions due to a global health emergency that was short term.
        It’s incredibly easy to justify collaboration needs or performance needs in cases like these (whether that’s actual true or not) and so far the courts have agreed.

        Having the added element of different employees that look like members of a specific class getting to do this may help here but that should be the focus.

        1. Anon for this*

          The women are in the same department and are doing the same job as one of the favored guys who is WFH if that makes a difference.

    6. DJ*

      Sounds like a gender, perhaps age and race discrimination issue.
      Especially when denied a couple of mature age women with medical condition for part of what these, assumedly healthy, men get. And also when the ADA comes into play for these women.
      In Australia there are listed groups who can request flexible working practices and have to be considered (Fair Work Act) which covers age and Disability. As well as state and federal discrimination acts covering reasonable adjustment for disability!

    7. AcademiaNut*

      IANAL, but discrimination based on national origin or ethnicity is illegal in the US, so you wouldn’t necessarily have to get into the gender component. This case sounds pretty blatant too – it’s not just a statistical bias, literally only people with a particular ethnicity/national origin are getting specific perks.

    8. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Speaking from some experience here: go to the EEOC first. This is crucial. Explain the situation, focusing on the ADA-covered medical condition, the women’s age and gender, and request an investigation. It will take time; but once the EEOC investigates and finds the discrimination, then you can go to an attorney. Also recommend that you look for a disability attorney as well as an employment attorney.

    9. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I have seen this before – foreign-born dept head who is either unaware of american labor law (and should be educated) or just blows it off because they’re in charge. Especially noticeable when dept head/boss is from a male-dominant country. I know how that sounds, but I wasn’t the only one who noticed/remarked on it.

      Get the attorney.

  2. Kwebbel*

    Dear AAMers: Next week is my annual performance review. There’s a good chance I’ll get a lower rating than I deserve, and I’d like some advice on how to react to that if it happens, given that I won’t leave over it.

    Some context: Our company uses a five-point scale, with 1 being “exceptional” and 5 being “needs improvement”. About 65% of employees receive a rating of 3 (“good performance”) in any given annual cycle.

    I’m a commercial operations manager, and I’ve been in this role for 2 years (and at the company for 6). I’ve received a rating of 2 (“exceeds expectations”) three years in a row now (correctly, I’d say). But this year, my performance has arguably been even stronger. Not enough for a 1, as I didn’t do anything that really changed the direction of the company, but still a strong 2. I’ve measurably exceeded the objectives that were set for me in 2024: My team does operational support for a commercial team, and they’ve also taken on commercial support as well – which required me to upskill everyone. I’ve had an impact far stronger than expected: Not only did my team’s any my work have the impact (improving efficiency and quality of work produced) on our department that we set out to achieve, but we’ve also improved the output of other departments as well. I clearly live by the company values that we’re all supposed to demonstrate, and am repeatedly told that I’m a role model for them by my peers and even my manager (who’ll be delivering my rating). And my scope has expanded massively: my team quadrupled in size and took on scope of other departments that couldn’t get critical regulatory topics done properly – and I didn’t get a raise at the time.

    I think it’s about 50/50 whether I’ll receive a 2 or a 3 this year. If I do receive a 3, I think my manager’s argument to me will be something along the lines of “A 3 is really great; You should be proud of yourself; We need to get out of the funk of believing only a 1 or a 2 are good; Our company is becoming more complex so we need to raise the bar to really reward the top of the top; working lots of hours is not a guaranteed 2; etc.; etc;.”

    But the real reason – even if this is only subconscious on my manager’s part – will be twofold: First, my team does Operations within a Commercial team, and my manager is the Sr. Commercial Director. To him, the theoretical negotiations with customers over a Michelin-star meal overlooking the Eiffel Tower will always be more important to him than the work my team and I do of (a) working with the Billing team to ensure they can actually invoice for these negotiations, which always involve complex, bespoke regulatory requirements that we’re generally not set up to handle, and (b) working with the customers to ensure they actually pay their bills (because they tend not to if they can avoid it). He doesn’t appreciate the gravity of what we do, so it’ll always be difficult for him to see our work as anything beyond simple admin. And second, my manager has repeatedly told me that I’m the most reasonable of his direct reports. Of my five peers, two of them literally cried at him this year because they weren’t getting enough promotions (they were both promoted twice in the previous three years). His solution was to just give them promotions to appease them. Another threatened to leave after she wasn’t promoted to a director position (rightly, in my eyes – and in my boss’s eyes, as he told me). His solution was to give her the coveted rating of a 1 on her performance review. And another peer of mine, pretty irritated that he didn’t receive anything when his work ethic is arguably well beyond that of those three, received a promise from my manager that he’d get promoted by mid-2025. So, all in all, my manager doesn’t really have any more treats left to hand out, and he figures I’m the least likely to get upset.

    I’d rather like to tell him the above, though I don’t think it’ll do me any good. And nothing will likely change based on my reaction.

    That being said, I’m not leaving over it. I’m only 2 years in to management. If I leave now, I’ll probably be going back to an individual contributor role, and that’s not my goal right now. And my pay and benefits are great given the effort I put in. If I stay another 2 years, I’ll certainly be able to build up something even better than what I already have built, and I’ll be able to leverage it into a far more lucrative position than I could if I left now. And my boss’s boss has hinted to me that he’s planning to restructure his team so I’d be reporting into an Operations Director in a year or so anyway, so all this is very temporary.

    If you were in my situation – receiving a rating below what you deserved, which would irritate you and impacts your salary growth, but you wouldn’t leave over it as you know you’re still overall in a very good situation – how would you react? Would you decide not to say anything, as showing frustration but not leaving would just indicate that they can do it again next year without consequence? Would you say something so that your manager understands that you believe they’ve made a mistake?

    1. Antilles*

      Your boss seems spineless, so I’d suggest trying being less agreeable. Not necessarily “cry on command” or “threaten to jump ship” (never make that threat unless you’re 100% willing to carry it out), but taking control of the conversation upfront.
      Lead off the conversation with a clear, evidence-supported argument that you earned a 1 because you got a 2 for the last few years and this year was even stronger as you can see in our metrics X and Y and Z. If he says that they’re trying to raise the standards, ask him exactly what he wants from you to get the 1 that you deserve, because based on the goals and metrics, you seem to have earned it. When he responds vaguely (and he will), don’t let him be vague, but follow up with an “okay so sales need to be better, what exactly metrics would earn me a 1?”.
      You might notice that I keep saying that you’re looking for a 1 and the reason for that is that based on his history, this feels like he’ll at the very least compromise on “okay well, will you at least accept a 2”. He might not have ‘treats’ to hand out like undeserved promotions, but surely he can at least hold firm to giving you the same grade you got last year.

    2. Kes*

      I would make it clear to him that you’re unhappy. Unfortunately it sounds like making a fuss is likely to be rewarded by him. If you don’t say anything and accept it, you will likely confirm his opinion that because you are “reasonable” he can in fact give you less and get away with it because you won’t make a fuss.
      You may have decided you aren’t willing to leave, but he doesn’t know that, and it sounds like he isn’t likely to stand up to you or call your bluff (not that I’m saying you should necessarily threaten to leave. Just that if you make it clear your unhappy he’s not likely to fire you or even hold it against you but is more likely to give you the recognition you want). It is too bad that he works this way, but since you know that is how he works and that on your team, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, then if you want the grease of recognition/rewards, you need to be a squeaky wheel.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m unclear from what you’ve written: why are you expecting your rating to go down? Aside from the you being “the most reasonable” thing, which I think explains why you’d be the one to not get a “treat” but not why the rating should go down in the first place. Does your boss have only so many 2 ratings he’s allowed to give out and you’re drawing the short straw this year? Something else?

      I think, given the scope expansion of your work and the fact that you’re still doing it to the same level, I’d express surprise and then outline all the things you’ve outlined here re: improving outputs/efficiency not just on your team but on others, with concrete examples. (Assuming that’s not already in your self-evaluation; if it is, just re-iterate it.)

      If your boss counters with “3 is still a good rating!” you should say “I appreciate that it’s a good rating in general. What I’m concerned about is the year-to-year change despite my and my team’s increased output/efficiency/whatever. You haven’t noted any concerns in your evaluation notes [assuming that’s the case], so I’m curious what has changed since last year.” And then sit and wait awkwardly while he tries to come up with something but probably can’t.

      I think the key is just keeping it all matter of fact and not getting too emotional about it, because from the sounds of it your boss is kinda of arbitrary so none of this may matter but by sticking to your points and being level-headed (dare I say, reasonable) about it, he’s more likely to see that whoops, he made a blunder.

      1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

        One million percent THIS: “I appreciate that it’s a good rating in general. What I’m concerned about is the year-to-year change despite my and my team’s increased output/efficiency/whatever. You haven’t noted any concerns in your evaluation notes [assuming that’s the case], so I’m curious what has changed since last year.”

      2. Kwebbel*

        First off, LOVE the phrasing here. I’m going to use this.

        It’s a fair question about why I think my rating will go down. I didn’t mention it in my lengthy post! It’s twofold: First, as you guessed at, I think he won’t have any treats left after handing them out to everyone else. But second, there are layoffs coming at some point next year, and our HR team has been stricter this year on handing out 2s willy-nilly. So I think he will just find it easiest to cut mine. When we had a discussion about 2 people on my team’s ratings, he insisted I lower their ratings below the initial ones I had given them.

        1. ecnaseener*

          there are layoffs coming at some point next year, and our HR team has been stricter this year on handing out 2s willy-nilly

          Meaning, it’s harder to lay off people who got 2s than people who got 3s? If that’s the case, you really need to push for the 2 — you’d hate to regret not pushing for it because you weren’t willing to leave over it, only to get laid off.

          1. not nice, don't care*

            As a survivor of a few economic downturns in a variety of industries, I find that when layoffs are coming there is often already a hit list.

        2. Great Frogs of Literature*

          If there are layoffs coming, definitely argue that you should get a 1 — you don’t want to set yourself up to be the “low performer” who gets cut, just because you didn’t advocate for yourself strongly enough. (You may be saying, “But I’m the only Operations manager,” but that may not protect you if there’s a reorg, too — you want to be a high-performing Operations manager.)

          Also, is there any grievance process for the ratings? If you get a 2 I don’t think you should necessarily follow it, but if you get a 3 you definitely should, since it sounds like you have documented metrics to back you up. I’d use the “I have been a 2 for the past two years and here is the evidence that my performance was stronger last year” language. I wouldn’t get into details about why you think the other people don’t deserve 1s, but if you get pushback because you manager is giving out too many good ratings, definitely suggest that all of your manager’s ratings should be evaluated based on the evidence, not just yours.

          (As a side note, I’m not saying that you SHOULD leave now, but if you’d be going back to an individual contributor role because you think two years of managing isn’t enough, I think you’re wrong — you would absolutely be in a position to apply to other manager roles. With bosses who aren’t a limp noodle.)

        3. Momma Bear*

          Does your company have a formal option to argue your rating and demand a review? If you don’t agree and you bring all the receipts, then I’d formally contest the rating and let him know you will. If he doled out the high ratings for others and has nothing to give you, then that’s a poor management on his part problem. Did his insistence on changing ratings for your team negatively impact those people?

          If you might get laid off anyway, push for the 2.

        4. Goldfeesh*

          I think you should see the layoffs ahead as a flashing, blaring red light and not settle for a 3. Watch the company bring in an outsider to appear impartial:

          “Oh, Mr. Impartial Outsider looked at the reviews and decided X number of 3s will go. Those 3s were deserved or their manager would have rated them as higher. Our decision is final.”

        5. Kwebbel*

          So, of course, I never say never, but it’s unlikely layoffs will affect me. I work in a country where companies legally can’t take performance into account to decide layoffs, as they’re considered too subjective (which is frustrating in some cases, but it does reduce the issues that are listed above in the nested comments).

          The only two things that can be taken into account for layoffs are company tenure and job title. The way it’ll work is that the company will announce which job titles are “at risk” in around 3 months from now. There are 10 people in the company with my title in various departments, and if they cut, say, 20% of us, the 2 people who have the shortest tenure in the company will be laid off. There will also be a voluntary leave package (likely something like 1 month of severance per year in the company) offered to the remaining 8 of us. If 3 take it, the 2 with the longest tenure will be given the package, the 1 with less tenure won’t be and will be told their job at least is safe, and the 2 people with shortest tenure who would have been laid off will also be safe. If 1 person takes the voluntary leave package, then only the person with the shortest tenure will be laid off and the person electing to take the voluntary package will receive it instead of the person with the second-shortest tenure. If no one takes the package and both people with the shortest tenure leave on their own volition (there are usually around 3-6 months between the time we’re told a title is “at risk” and the time the layoffs are completed, so that happens), then no one ends up being laid off. If 3 people leave during the period where layoffs are happening, there will end up being a recruitment process to find a person to fill the role of the 1 extra person who left after the process is finished for the whole company.

          I don’t believe my title will be at risk given everything I’ve gathered about which areas of the company are likely to be affected. But if it is, I’m in the middle of the 10 of us in terms of tenure. They’re very unlikely to cut 50% of any role, especially ours. So I do feel fairly safe.

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      So, I am wondering if you’re borrowing trouble here (and I say this as someone who would have mentally prepared everything you did). I think the message I would deliver is something along the lines of, “I am disappointed to hear that. My impression was that Key Metrics A, B, and C were very strong and ahead of other individuals and departments.” And then just stop and wait and see what he says.

    5. Katie*

      My position is that I am responsible for telling my story to get my good review. Before you go into a review you should know what your manager is going to say. If you haven’t done so already, you already need your manager to know the above and beyond contributions you made so that it’s not a reactionary adjustment to the review.

    6. Not A Manager*

      If you know that tears, threats and tantrums work for other people, why do you think they wouldn’t work for you? I’m not suggesting that you get an academy award for best actor, but a firm “I don’t agree with this score, here’s why, I think it should be higher and I will let my annoyance show” doesn’t seem outrageous.

    7. Generic Name*

      Okay, so a couple of things. This is a lot of angst over annual reviews. Are you generally happy at your company? I know you’ve said that you won’t leave over this. Why? If you know you are staying where you are at, what is the point of getting upset over it. What are you hoping to accomplish if you push back or indicate your unhappiness?

      From the management side, I can tell you that there are factors outside of the bare facts of an individual’s performance that go into what people are rated at. I got a “developing in role” rating at my recent annual review because I recently got promoted, and apparently it’s company policy if you had a recent promotion, you are supposed to be rated as “developing” even if you are knocking it out of the park. Would I rather be rated as “exceeds expectations”? Hell yeah. I was an A+ student, and there still is the part of me that likes getting “good grades”.

      There is also some politicking that goes on in terms of who can get the highest rating, and at least at my company, departments have a limited number of those ratings they are allowed to hand out. I’m a first line manager, and if upper management disagrees with me, or for any other reason, they can change what I’ve rated my staff. Fortunately so far my ratings have not been changed, so I haven’t had to tell my staff, “I rated you as X, but for Reasons, the company has rated you as Y.”

      All that said, you can always say, “I’m surprised to hear my rating because of X, Y, and Z accomplishments this year. Can you tell me more about the factors behind my rating?” This is when a good manager would either have concrete examples of why you were rated lower (IF you are), or they would admit that you should be scored higher, but can’t for whatever business reason.

      But I would rethink why only 2 years of management experience would mean you go back to an individual contributor role. Have you been applying/interviewing for manager level roles elsewhere and been told that? At least in my field, there are a dearth of candidates who are qualified to and who want to manage people. You might be surprised at what you find out if you do a casual job search and only apply to jobs/companies that really excite you.

      1. Kwebbel*

        Yeah, good questions. The reason that I’d be frustrated about getting a lower rating than I deserve is because of the impact it has on my payraise, bonus, and chance of getting a promotion in the next year. Given the extra hours I’ve put in and what I’ve accomplished as a result, I’d like this to be reflected in my compensation and development opportunities.

        The reason I think I’d be unlikely to get a better position is indeed from the fact that I’m always at least peripherally looking around. A few months ago, I started testing the waters to see what was out there. I’ve submitted around 10 applications right now and haven’t got any bites. I know that’s not so many (and indeed, I’ll keep looking!), but when I look at the job descriptions, they were all asking for 3-5 years’ management experience.

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          You can get around their ask for 3-5 years’ management experience by writing a knockout cover letter that highlights your truly stellar accomplishments. Bad / mediocre managers don’t get their teams to do what you’ve gotten yours to do.

          Think of “3-5 years’ management experience” as shorthand for “accomplished manager who knows how to lead a team.”

          It’s not your fault that you’ve hit the normal 3-5 year milestones in just 2 years. :-)

    8. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I would ask “what would it take for me to boost this rating to a 2?” And then keep pressing for specifics, but framed as clarifying questions about his expectations.

      This makes it clear that you would like a higher rating, but also opens the door for genuine feedback about the gap between where you’re at and where you’d like to be. It’s not defensive, it comes from a place of curiosity and seeking alignment.

      And if your manager can’t answer those questions, well…now you have all the information you need to make good decisions for yourself.

    9. ReviewScores*

      Been there done that, both with and without the boss who prioritizes other types of work over my responsibilities.

      Pushing back without specific data backing up your rationale for a higher rating and doing so in a calm and professional way. If you do not have specific data you can use to push back, don’t think you can do it calmly, or think you have a boss who might hold it against you I wouldn’t do it. Please note that even when I have had real data and what I (and a close coworker I shared with later) a good case, I have never once been successful at changing a rating. In many cases, they had already been formally submitted and could not be changed. In some cases the boss explained that he was only allowed to give X (usually 1 or 2) exceeds expectations for all of their reports and never more than one per person (if the ratings are in categories). I’ve worked at a lot if places that didn’t give any exceptional or where exceptional needed the sign off of the CEO so everyone’s ratings got lowered a grade to keep differentiation in place. I’ve even worked in a few places that didn’t allow certain departments to give anything but pass/fail (meets expectations/does not meet expectations) because the powers that be see those roles as less important to the business as a whole so they want to reserve bonus money for those they value more.

      All of this is to say that it’s really out of your control. If you do push back, it likely won’t result in a better rating now. Perhaps it will make them think twice the following year, but that really depends.

      The worst working year of my life I got all exceptional and exceeds expectations ratings, some of which I deserved but some of which I lost definitely did not. The following year which was a higher performing year by any reasonable standards resulted in a meets expectations (my boss claimed it was because he had me create my own job and therefore there were no specific management set goals for me to exceed which he said was a requirement for a higher rating – silly me for thinking succeeding in that environment was a major accomplishment).

      I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s mostly politics.

      Good luck!

      1. I Have RBF*

        I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s mostly politics.

        This.

        It’s politics and institutional stinginess, or, worse, stack ranking and fitting to a curve. Most companies I’ve worked for severely ration the number of 1 and 2 ratings across the whole company, and those are reserved for the darlings of management, regardless of anyone’s actual performance.

    10. I Have RBF*

      At my company, and most other companies I’ve been at in the last 20 years, it takes an demonstrated miracle to get a 1 (greatly exceeds). I can’t even get a 2 (exceeds) without my boss writing a novel worth of praise. 85% of the company gets a 3.

      So IME, getting a 2 is high praise. They only give out a 1 when they are in the process of promoting someone (deservedly or not.) Plus, they never give out a 2 twice in a row. 2 last year is 3 now, they always want more.

      Sometimes a manager’s hands are tied by politics.

      1. Anon for this*

        That last line, yes. I was asked by a couple of my team what it would take to get our highest ranking in the “company values” category, and I was honest with them that per the guidelines I was given, it involved working a lot of unpaid overtime, actively promoting our company’s products on their own social media (sorry, “being a brand ambassador”), and so on, and that the percentage difference in annual raise would have amounted to about fifteen dollars a month. (I did not get a raise last year. Neither did my boss. CEO and top execs, who frequently tell us it’s not about the money, got 15%. My team got between 1 and 2%, and my boss and I fought like hell to get three of them the top possible ranking on the performance scale.)

        It was so disheartening telling my team of fantastic people that all of their hard work, dedication to their clients, and brilliance got them what amounted to a slightly smaller pay cut in terms of actual purchasing power.

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        At my last company, we all joked that the only person who ever gets a Greatly Exceeds is the CEO.

    11. Abigail*

      Is the numerical value attached to a bonus or anything like that?

      I know this sounds harsh, but who cares? I mean, why does it matter if you get a different number if there are no actual consequences?

      1. Kwebbel*

        There is, yes. The rating is linked to salary increases, bonus multipliers, and opportunities for promotion outside of the department.

    12. Red Flags Everywhere*

      As a few have mentioned, it’s not uncommon for the ratings to be set before you have a formal meeting over them. I would get ahead of the situation and send your summary in advance (in the same format as your eventual rating so your boss can reasonably choose to copy and paste). We get the chance to rate ourselves before it goes to our boss and as a manager myself, it’s really helpful to have those reminders of where my staff have excelled and also to point out areas where we have very different evaluations of how things are going so I can focus on effective feedback.

      1. Kwebbel*

        You’re right on this one: The way it works at my company is that employees submit their self-reflections in late November (including their perception on which rating they deserve), managers then write their reviews of their employees in early December (also including the rating they plan to give their employees), then in mid-December there’s a “calibration”, where managers meet with their own manager and defend their ratings. Theoretically, the manager of the employee has the final say in a rating, but in practice the manager’s manager can veto any rating as they choose. That number gets submitted and locked in with HR. In the month that follows, managers share the final ratings with employees. There’s a grievance process, but it’s extremely unlikely that this will result in a different result for the employee. There would have to be clear evidence of foul play on the manager’s side. There’s none in my case: My manager lacks a backbone, that’s all.

    13. JSPA*

      You can keep an even keel, and still first go silent and look at the floor for an uncomfortably long time, then say, “even to a person as reasonable as you know me to be, this is deeply upsetting.” Then excuse yourself politely, and go to the bathroom, and stay for a bit longer than normal.

    14. Part time lab tech*

      If your boss gives in to fuss, maybe spell out to him that he needs to reward being reasonable. Currently he is teaching his team that if they complain or cry, he’ll give in. He is rewarding behaviour he says he doesn’t want.

  3. CommanderBanana*

    Hello AAMers! I am starting a fully remote job in mid-January with a team that isn’t local. I haven’t been fully remote since the pandemic. Any advice, from the practical, setting-up-a-home-office type, to how to cultivate relationships with a team I won’t see in person regularly?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I have a report who is fully remote and lives in another state. When he joined, even though he reports to me directly (slightly different kind of work than the rest of our team), I had him join the team meetings of the two teams that report to the assistant directors under me. That gave him an introduction to his peers in a relaxed small group setting. On his own initiative, though, he followed those team meetings up by requesting 1:1 meetings with each of the individuals on the two teams. It was a great way for him to get to know each person, to chat about work and fun stuff. I thought it was an excellent idea. I wouldn’t have scheduled those meetings for him myself because I’d worry it might be overwhelming to someone starting a new job, but he took it on himself and enjoyed it. You might consider doing something similar–Zoom coffee chats or lunches with new coworkers.

    2. Poet*

      Remind yourself to be frequent and eager in your communication with your teammates. Reach out to them on whatever workplace chat app you’re using a lot. When it makes sense to, set up recurring one on one meetings with people. And of course, try and read the “office” culture and go with it.

      As a somewhat senior person, when I went fully remote I had to break out of my “okay I’m senior, I’m An Expert by now! I’ll look incompetent if I keep bugging my colleagues about stuff.” No healthy workplace will judge you poorly for seeking that clarification.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      This is a small one, but: Be rigorously on time for meetings.

      This was a past discussion, that it turned out for most people waiting for someone to appear on Zoom did feel more “hovering in space” than a physical meeting. Which means you really notice the person who is 3 minutes late on the Zoom call but might not register it at all in a physical conference room.

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed and I’d even suggest you should try to be a couple minutes *early* for meetings, at least for the first few weeks. This means when someone else joins, you can start some chit-chat and help build those relationships.

        1. I Have RBF*

          This.

          Also, for me if I don’t join five minutes early, I’ll get caught up in something and be 15 minutes late.

      2. Kes*

        Beyond looking professional, the start of meetings is often where you get a bit of small talk which can actually be good to start building relationships as well as the actual work. Beyond that I recommend initial 1:1s with key people you’re working with, and just generally show yourself as friendly and professional and approachable and eager and willing to listen and learn how things are done there. Without unduly burdening others (when you can easily find your answers), do reach out when you have questions. And if the team has social opportunities, whether in chat or in meetings, gauge the team norm and follow those but do join in
        Overall, with remote you have to be a bit more deliberate about how you connect because you won’t just spontaneously happen to see people, so it does require you to actively reach out a little bit more, whether for initial 1:1s or for questions or information you need

    4. Just here for the scripts*

      Practical here:
      1. Have a professional background set for your video calls. Our dept has one made that we just uploaded into both Teams and Zoom.

      If you don’t have that, make sure your computer is facing a dead space (wall, bookcase, etc not a hallway, doorframe etc), curate the space behind you and set the background setting to blur. That way folks won’t get distracted by what’s behind you (ie trying to read your bookcase), roommates won’t get caught on screen, and you can focus on your virtual connections.

      2. Get a good pair of noise canceling headphones. One with a directional mic will limit roommate’s voices on your calls (the general mics hear tv and room sharing convos as “voices that should be transmitted” and do so.). Pro tip: wearing one ear in headphones and one ear not will help you regulate the volume of your voice (in case roomies are complaining that YOU are loud).

      3. Get a good professional office chair. Back in 2007 I bought the freedom chair (link in comment below) and while it wasn’t cheap, it has lasted well! I still love it!

      2. a good chair*

        I second the good chair. I thought a $100 chair from Staples would be fine but it won’t stay in the locked position & wants to throw me onto the floor. Good chairs are more than $100

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Re the home office:

      If you can, keep your work space separate from your living space.

      Ex. don’t work on the sofa if that’s where you like to relax and watch TV after your day is over. And resist the temptation to stay logged in when you’re not working. It’s too easy just to peek at email as you walk by (assuming you’re not hourly or on call). Once you have a schedule set, do your best to stick to it — when you go offline, people will just have to wait until you’re on again. At my job, some of us put our core work hours in our email signatures.

      You can do it even in a teeny apartment. I set up a little-bitty cheapo Walmart desk in my kitchen and when I’m done, I turn everything off and go into another room. I also don’t do any work or have any connection to work on my personal computer. The only time I did work on the sofa was after I had knee surgery so I could prop up my leg, but that was a one-time thing.

      Oh yeah, get a COMFORTABLE chair!

      1. not nice, don't care*

        Very much this!
        Having separate space, even in my 700sf house, has been a mindsaver when wfh.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          My apartment is only like 420 sf. When I’m in the kitchen, I just avoid looking at the desk unless I need to use it for something, lol. (Yes, I have walls in between rooms.) When I’m on the sofa, I can’t even see it.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I feel strongly that one-on-one video calls can not only help with team-building, but also smooth communication via email and IM. (I could probably write another thesis on this, but I’ll give you the short version. :) ) I know some people are strongly against turning on their cameras, and I don’t mind being the only one with my camera on. I feel that being able to picture someone saying something verbally reduces the chances of misinterpreting an email or IM. Basically, flame wars are mostly a product of anonymous communication, and the feelings that cause them are less likely to arise if you feel you know the “speaker”.

      1. Ayoyoyo*

        100% this. I’ve been working fully remote prior to the pandemic and being on camera is just something I’m used to at this point. Many times I’m the only one on camera, but what I’ve noticed is that over time the people I’ve been working with cross-functionally will turn their camera on too. It’s so much easier to connect with someone when you can see them and their body language.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      Every one has really good tips! I’d also suggest to make sure you follow through with any tasks you bring up during calls. I’ve been finding that our remote poor performers have a habit of saying they will do a task, and then forget about it once the meeting is done. They aren’t making the connection that calls are real and the rest of the team is depending on them.

      1. Return to office*

        What, you mean not everyone working remotely is “jUsT aS PRoDucTiVe” as their counterparts in office? Say it ain’t so, Joe.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Yeah, it’s not like people can flake out in the office….

          Oh, wait, they’ve been doing that forever.

          So yeah, they are “just as productive” as people in the office. Maybe even more so.

          To be specific: People who are flakes will be flakes whether they are in office or not. Remote or in office does not change a person’s basic inclinations.

          Now, for people with certain issues around noise, visual distraction and crowding will be more productive when remote, because open plan sucks for productivity for most people. People who get energized by being surrounded by people will be more productive in an office, especially an open plan.

        2. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

          I’ve definitely worked with people 100% in person who would say they’d do a task in a meeting and then not. You can be a poor performer regardless of if you are in an office building.

    8. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Figure out a “commute” to start and end your workday. Mine is either making a second cup of tea in the morning or grabbing a coffee out; once I’ve done that I get to work. In the evening I put all the new to-dos from the day in my master list, and jot down my to-do list for the next day. This helps me have a firm start/stop, which was helpful I found myself login on later because I was puttering in the mornings.

      1. I Have RBF*

        This.

        My “commute” is from my bedroom to my office. My morning cuppa and logging on is my startup ritual. The end of my day happens when I deliberately lock my screen and switch my KVM to my personal computer.

      2. DJ*

        The commute can be, after doing breakfast shower dress, is to leave your home for a walk and when arriving back treat it as walking into the front door of your workplace. Repate when leaving for the end of the day!

    9. Lady Danbury*

      If the rest of the team is in the same location, try to make a trip out to meet them in person at some point (if feasible). Obviously there are lots of factors that determine the feasibility/affordability of such a trip, but this may be something that your company is willing to help pay for, especially if it’s for a specific event (team meeting, conference, etc.).

      This has already been mentioned, but I’ve found one on one meetings to be really helpful in both in person and remote roles. The purpose of the meetings isn’t just getting to know you small talk but to learn about the other person’s role and how it fits into the team/company’s structure. That’s something that I’ve found can take a while to grasp remotely, and having a one on one conversation helps me to understand and internalize it a lot more quickly.

    10. ThursdaysGeek*

      Find time for chit-chat, camera on; share something personal occasionally in your chats. You need to be a real person talking to real people, so find ways to connect. Your work connections will be stronger if your teammates get a chance to know you as a person.

      (I’m travelling next week and will get to meet some of my co-workers in person for the first time, right before I retire. But we’ve worked, and talked/chatted together enough that we are already connected.)

    11. Policy Wonk*

      Lots of good suggestions here. My two cents: If possible, do an orientation visit to HQ, meet people in person, get a feel for the operations, so you will understand some of the insider discussion on your Zoom calls.

    12. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      A friend once told me the hardest thing about onboarding during the pandemic was not knowing who to ask “dumb questions” of aside from their boss. When I’m onboarding remote workers I always try to suggest “Peer A is great for X and Y, and if you need anything about Z that’s more of a Peer B question.”

      Try to find that out early if you can. Ask your boss, trainer or the other people you’re interacting with early on if there are go-to people in the department for particular subject matter, or if they can recommend a friendly person who knows the ins and outs of the office and would be able to point you in the right direction when you don’t know who to ask for day-to-day stuff.

      Don’t be afraid to reach out to your peer-level folks for informal one-on-ones. Give them some parameters, maybe suggest a video call (so they can connect with you as a “real person” rather than a voice on the phone, if that’s an option for you), and explain you’re taking 15 with all the team members and are looking for a sense of what they do, their day to day, communication style and some basics about how the team works. Emphasize that you aren’t asking for a big time commitment and stick to it.

      Then, I agree with others that DMs are your friend. Try to ask each team member a work question over the course of a few days or a week and see who responds, how quickly, with what kind of style. This will start to give you a sense of the office culture and who might be the people you make your first stop when you have more qs in the future. Good luck!

    13. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      If you don’t still have it, acquire the right type of mat to protect your floor from your chair. I wrongly assumed that my rolling office chair wouldn’t damage the vinyl floors in a prior apartment, and I am astonished they didn’t take anything out of my deposit for it when I moved out. Same for carpet.

    14. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      re setting up home worksite:

      Don’t rush out to buy stuff yet unless, for example, you have absolutely no surface area for your laptop. Give it a bit of time to see what you really need. When my dept. went WFH, we thought it would be temporary, and when it became perm, my boss and i discussed how, if we’d known, we would’ve spent our $ with the long term in mind.

      YouTube has lots of videos from people who set up home offices, from big space/big bucks to tiny space/tiny bucks. i got a lot of good ideas and esp. found out about inexpensive hacks and gizmos that make things easier, more organized, nicer looking.

      looks count. esp. if your work area has no window, give yourself something to look at besides your computer screen. pictures, stick-on wallpaper, a plant. extra points if it adds color.

  4. Sparkles*

    I had been handling 2 tracking documents (one for Product A, the other for Product B, but entails the same process) for the past year. They get updated 1x/week and the details are then sent out in a weekly email to various stakeholders. With the approval of the director of my team about 1.5 months ago, I handed one of the documents off to my junior level teammate and explained the process and let him know it needed to be updated weekly with an email sent out. For added context, he was hired almost a year ago as a “culture fit” even though he didn’t have as much experience as some other candidates…

    I think you know where this is going, lol, he hasn’t been updating his tracking document for the past month or sending out the weekly email. I’ve mentioned via email when he originally took it over to the stakeholders that he would be handling the document going forward. Now, it’s really not my problem anymore since we each report to the team director, however, the information that goes on the document (which he is supposed to handle) does have to do with what I work on. I had given him this task because I was handled a lot and needed something off my plate. 

    So – what will then happen is during meetings we have with one of the stakeholders, is that when I’m the one talking (and it’s always when I talk), the stakeholder will ask me a question about something that should be on the document my teammate handles, but since he’s not doing it and sending out the emails, the stakeholders don’t have that information. 

    When I’m asked those questions, I give the details the best I can. Honestly I’m just annoyed that our director and the stakeholders know that my teammate is supposed to handle that document, but instead of reminding him or asking him why it’s not done, they play dumb and ask me instead. And our director just doesn’t say anything, even though he knows the teammate now handles it.

    I know I’m venting, but any suggestions on how to best handle this? I feel like reminding them he handles it (“[teammate] actually handles this document” or “I’m not sure on X, the document hasn’t been updated” or “I’m not sure – [to teammate]: what are you seeing on your end?”) is going to come off condescending.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t think it’s condescending to redirect a question to the appropriate point person, so long as you’re cheerful and matter-of-fact in your response. People are continuing to ask you about it because you’re continuing to provide them with whatever information you can, and your teammate is continuing to not to the work because there’s no incentive for them to do it. It’s okay to fully shift the responsibility to them! “Let me loop in [teammate] on that; he’s been overseeing this for the last few months and will know better than me on the status!” or whatever is perfectly fine.

      1. Tio*

        Yes, this. Having people answer for their responsibilities is a good way to get them to take them seriously, and to let it out when they are not taking it seriously. And it’s better than answering the questions yourself on something you’re not handling – you may be missing context (probably not in this case, but who knows.)

        It may be reasonable to mention to your boss that you haven’t seen any weekly emails or updates – in a “Hey, I noticed that I’ve been getting a lot of questions from stakeholders about the report I passed to John and when I looked it looks like it hasn’t been updated or emailed out lately” and then leave it in his lap if he wants to follow up on it. If he does, you let him know early. If not, oh well, not your problem.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah I had to learn this the hard way as someone who instinctively wants to tell people the answers if I know how to find them – if someone else is supposed to be in charge of certain information but coworkers learn it’s easier to get the info from you, they’ll always go to you unless you stop giving them the info and always redirect to your colleague. Make it his problem so it becomes easier for him to keep up with the document than ignore it. Right now he’s not suffering any consequences for not doing so.

      3. Always Tired*

        The frequency with which I say “Oh, that’s a Jane question! She’s handling office supplies now.” or “I don’t know, ask Steve, that’s under his care now.” is astounding. And if I am chipper instead of exasperated, no one reads it poorly. BUT. If I say “Oh, Jane handles office supplies now, but I think the pens are in the left cabinet where they have always been.” They do not stop asking me.

        Sparkles, you must stop giving them the answers, or it remains easier to go to you about it than the person not doing their job. You need to pull an “I’m not sure, I’ll let [slacker] handle that question, as he’s tracking that project now.”

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Yeah, just redirect it back to your colleague. If he doesn’t know the answer, that’s on him.

      I know your director already knows he’s not doing the work, but if you’re still hoping he could do something about it, try the “thing is happening and it’s impacting my work, what is your suggestion for how to handle this” approach, i.e. “Director, I handed Task X over to Colleague six months ago but he still doesn’t seem to be doing it regularly. I’m concerned that we look unprepared and unprofessional in meetings with stakeholders when we don’t know the status of Product A/B. I’m going ton continue directing inquiries about those things to Colleague, but is there a different way you’d prefer me to handle this?”

    3. Kes*

      Agree with the others – right now the ball isn’t really dropping because you’re keeping it up. If it’s your teammate’s responsibility to handle it, it’s not condescending to redirect questions in his area to him. Additionally, if this has been causing more work for you, there’s nothing wrong with raising this issue to your director to say that you handed this off but he hasn’t been updating it and as a result you keep getting questions from stakeholders because they’re missing important information. Alternatively, if you want to be nice, you could talk to your teammate directly first and say that you’ve noticed he hasn’t been updating the document and ask if there’s anything more he needs from you in order to do this, to see if he did have additional questions that were blocking him. But beyond that, if he continues to not do the work and it’s causing you issues, raising this to your boss is the right thing to do here.

    4. JustMyImagination*

      Does it make sense to invite your coworker to those meetings? Then when your stakeholders ask the questions, he’s on the spot and not you.

        1. JustMyImagination*

          Then just pass it right to him!

          Stakeholder: “What’s the status of project?”
          Sparkles: “John, that should be in the spreadsheet, can you provide an update?”

          1. Bitte Meddler*

            This is the way.

            My only tweak would be to say, “John, that should be in your tracker spreadsheet; can you provide an update?”

            Make sure everyone knows that it’s *his* spreadsheet, not yours, OP. Otherwise you might risk the room reading it as a team / department spreadsheet and you’re just asking John to speak up to give him a chance to participate in the meeting.

        2. Kay*

          Echoing everyone else saying pass it back to your co-worker. It would be the same if you transferred from marketing to accounting and someone asked you a marketing question – you wouldn’t answer it, you would pass it to the marketing team!

          I think it is actually more weird that you are answering the question, but they are likely asking because for so long it was you that they asked – its habit! Since you are still answering you aren’t breaking them of the habit.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Another possibility — “I was pulled off that task. Last, I heard it was given to Fergus, but I wouldn’t know if $HisBoss changed anything around.”

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I disagree with this approach only because it will make Sparkles sound both uninformed and perhaps underperforming of a task they themselves delegated out (versus being pulled off of). It’s just too passive when they know who the correct point of contact is.

  5. Poet*

    Happy New Year everyone! Okay, this is a weird and touchy question, but here goes.

    I started a new job in a tech department at a big bank back in November. It’s going pretty well overall, except one of my senior colleagues keeps making weird racial and political remarks. Like, he’ll talk about “white mediocrity” or whatever in meetings unprompted. To be clear, he’s ethnically East Asian and I am ethnically white – we’re both second-gen immigrants but whatever. It’s not a daily thing but it’s frequent enough.

    Anyway, I was bored over the holiday break and looked up a couple coworkers’ socials. This guy’s Twitter is… very weird. He’s posted multiple stories about how white people have called the cops on him for walking his dog, saying he stole it and is going to cook the dog. For the record, we live in a big, liberal city, and there’s no shortage of East Asian people here. I’m bringing that up because I can imagine this happening once, but when he’s tweeted multiple stories about white people calling the cops on him for walking his dog or bringing his dog to the park, it comes off more like weird fan fiction passed off as a true story to me. There’s also usually a bunch of rants about Karens interspersed in there. I get why anyone, especially if you’re a member of a minority group, would feel on edge right now, and any one of these incidents could’ve definitely happened, but this all feels like weird, even if you disregard the “****ing Karens” part of it.

    I’m feeling super weird about this because I understand being on edge in the current sociopolitical climate. I also feel weird since I’m not cool with policing people’s social media activity off the clock. But his behavior seems kinda really… both prejudiced and totally not sane. And I don’t want someone giving me a bad 360 review on racial motivations at a job I otherwise like, or taking credit for my work, or something like that. Would it be that bad of me, as a new employee, to bring this to HR?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would not bring his social media presence up with HR, especially as a new employee. If he says something *in the office* that is unprofessional, I would bring it up first with your manager and say “Joe has been saying stuff like X and Y that’s making me feel really uncomfortable. I feel like criticism of systems of privilege and prejudice is valid, but his words come across as insulting to entire groups of people.”

      1. Poet*

        I understand why bringing up the Twitter stuff would look bad. I started noting the stuff he says in office down after a few “this API was broken, must’ve been made by a mediocre white man!” type quips at our standups and such. It’s unfortunate because I get why he would feel that way, where he’s coming from, and I’d also bet money that we agree on a good 95% of things politically, I just think it’s both not the right place for that and it’s coming off as overly aggressive for no reason.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Yeah, I think bringing this up to your boss with just that kind of wording is great: “I get where he’s coming from, but this is coming across as overly aggressive for no reason.”

          1. Trotwood*

            Yeah this just isn’t appropriate in the workplace…there’s no reason to bring his social media posts into it, but he shouldn’t be displaying open hostility toward any racial or ethnic group in a work setting.

        2. Observer*

          I get why he would feel that way, where he’s coming from

          That’s the thing – I think you *kind of* get it, but not completely. Because your description of his feed is off. I mean, it’s possible that he’s exaggerating, but as others have noted, it’s nowhere near as certain as you seem to think. So, especially if you also happen to be male, it’s probably a good idea to not get too heavily into how *well* you understand him and where he’s coming from.

          I just think it’s both not the right place for that and it’s coming off as overly aggressive for no reason.

          If you stick to *workplace* behavior, this is solid framing.

          1. Poet*

            Thank you, Observer. I feel this is a reasonable and measured critique. I was definitely in the wrong for .

            It’s totally possible for someone to have valid criticisms (which I believe most of his are!) but deliver them in a way that’s totally alienating to people who want to be on their side. Alison has responded to many letters which address such situations, just usually in a less charged context.

            Like I said in another comment, I am of Ukrainian Jewish descent; while my experience in America has generally been very low-key, it wasn’t so for my parents or grandparents, so it’s easy for me to have plenty of empathy for this guy. I would like to believe that I would empathize with him regardless, but I can only confidently speak on material reality.

    2. CherryBlossom*

      I promise to answer your question calmly, but first I do just need to assert this: As a POC in a large liberal city, surrounded by people of my race, I still experience racism, frequently. It may not be as overt, or as violent, as happens elsewhere, but it does still happen, and you should rid yourself of the notion Liberal Cities are always bastions of Progressive Safety.

      As to your actual question: If the political and racial comments are overt and frequent, you do have standing to go to HR, though I would leave his social media out of it. Your use of “Any one of these incidents could’ve definitely happened” makes it seem like you don’t believe they all could’ve happened, and it’s very much not your place to decide how much racism is believable.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yup. That’s a major reason why I would not bring up the Twitter stuff at work (and would probably stop looking at his Twitter altogether). You CANNOT judge what someone else is or is not experiencing.

      2. Accurate Tackurate*

        Liberal city or not–as someone who lives near Springfield, Ohio, home of the immigrants eating dogs and cats comment, I can assure the OP that these things are absolutely happening to your coworker on a regular basis.

      3. different seudonym*

        For real, for real. The recent uptick, where I live, in blatant, vocal public racism against East Asians in particular has been really gutwrenching to witness. I’m talking like, adults yelling slurs in a crowded subway car and getting no pushback.

    3. EMP*

      Let it go, you’re in too deep on this. If he makes comments *at work* that are inappropriate, call them out, document, and mention it to HR if appropriate. Extrapolating this into you’re protecting yourself from a future 360 review isn’t realistic.

      1. Poet*

        He is making those comments at work. If something goes wrong, it’s “white male mediocrity” – he doesn’t ever directly give anyone not of his race a hard time at work, but there’s a lot of “mediocre white male” this, “Karen” that about other stuff in the office. I can discard the social media stuff as irrelevant in this context, but it is a semi-frequently occurrence in the office.

        1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

          I may be off base here, but although I don’t personally use or love the “Karen” trope (mostly because I have two friends named Karen who are lovely people and hate it), I wouldn’t call it racist or even sexist.

          1. Observer*

            It’s both.

            Because the Karen trope is about a white woman who is *sensible* and middle aged, rather than young and attractive who has the audacity to be assertive. I mean think about what the complaint is:

            She’s in her thirties (old hag in training)
            She wears her hair in a short cut (rather than long luxurious hair)
            She drives a min-van, because she has to drive the kids around (rather than a nice car *and* she’s a mother)
            She asks for a manager when she doesn’t get what she needs (because it’s inconceivable that a front line worker might either be incorrect or not empowered to take care of an issue. But ONLY when it’s a woman, never when it’s a guy!)

            1. Tio*

              I’m pretty sure that the Karen complaints are specifically about asking for a manager when you don’t get what you want *despite it being unreasonable*, and moreso, that there is a certain amount of dramatics and histrionics in play, such as shouting and making a scene. I don’t think a regular middle aged woman who had a complaint, asked for a manager, and spoke calmly and clearly about it has ever been viewed as a Karen. Also, there is a male Karen equivalent, and they call them Kens (last I heard) it’s just not as pervasive as a female version. Karens are basically just grown women having temper tantrums when their unreasonable demands aren’t met.

              1. Georgina Sands*

                I think Karen started like that, but now it can be used at any woman who expresses an opinion in any circumstance – I’ve seen women called a Karen for objecting to being called a bitch (in a slang context, rather than intended as an insult) and pushing back at an anxiety diagnosis for physical pain, for example. Sadly I think any term used against women becomes misogynistic after a while

                1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

                  I must run in other circles, because it is not used that way when I hear it at all. It is reserved for unreasonable, racist, classist, and otherwise ridiculous people/requests.

                  I agree that it can be misogynistic since it is not typically used to describe men or, when it is used to describe men (I’ve heard a man referred to as a Karen multiple times) it indicates he is being “womanly” and stand corrected.

                2. Caramel & Cheddar*

                  I think this is the language drift problem — “Karen” started as a term to specifically describe the dynamic between entitled white women interacting with Black employees in custom service environments, but has basically evolved into “woman I don’t like” the broader its usage becomes. The term annoys me for that reason — that people are using it incorrectly, and often as a veil for their own misogyny — but that ship has probably sailed at this point.

                3. Rosey*

                  Yeah, agree. I totally understand the original meaning of Karen, but it’s definitely being used now to put a chill on women speaking up in situations where speaking up is totally reasonable. I’ve had it used on me (sometimes by young women) for calling out bad behaviour.

                  It sucks because as a no-longer-young woman you are just starting to get the confidence to stand up for yourself and/or others (the magic confidence that comes in your 30s and 40s) and now all of a sudden there’s this super useful misogynistic term that folks can throw at you. Makes you think twice.

          2. DefinitiveAnn*

            My daughter is named Karen and her admin is named Karen. When I found out the admin’s name, I expressed delight that their enemies won’t know what hit them. My daughter replied, “Yes, we are going to speak to ALL the managers.”

        2. Eh.. I won't out him, this time*

          I’m not saying these kinds of comments are acceptable for the workplace, but hear me out. My white male husband throws around the “mediocre white male” and “Karen” terms at work (so do his co-workers)! I, a white woman, use the both of these as well when whipping out some flair. Mind you – I’m not saying these are our finest moments – by any means, but I guarantee it would be received differently if it were being said by a person of color. I would sit with that for a bit.

          Being of the demographic that might be seen as being okay with the things your co-worker is posting about on Twitter, trust me, it is happening more often than you would like to think.

    4. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      You really don’t know anything about his “behavior.” All you know is what you read on his social media.

      Also, a white person policing and POC’s experience of racism is a really, really bad look.

      Calling someone’s experience of racism “not sane” is an extraordinarily bad look.

      None of this is any of your business. Focus on his behavior at work, not online. Mind your own business, do you work, go home, live your life. This really comes off like you’re creeping on your coworkers looking for reasons to be angry at brown people. Don’t be that person!

      1. Yankees fans are awesome*

        “…looking for reasons to be angry at brown people” precisely *isn’t* what’s going on here, as the comment notes. Please read more carefully before making such a tall accusation.

    5. Observer*

      Would it be that bad of me, as a new employee, to bring this to HR?

      Is he your manager or in your chain of command? Does he have a high level of influence that’s higher than indicated by his formal rank (eg he has the ear of your manager.) If not, I’d leave it be for now. The fact that he’s a senior colleague doesn’t mean he’s going to affect your reviews and career progression at the company. The key is going to be being scrupulously professional around him and just being good at your job in general.

      Now, if he is part of your chain of command, or is close enough to people who have direct influence on your work life, like your manager, then I would go to HR. Same if his behavior escalates to frequent direct rudeness to you or refusal of necessary cooperation. (But do be careful not to let your annoyance cause you to overstate the case.) Do not mention his social media feed. Not even “in passing.”

      What HR would need to know about, assuming they are competent, is his workplace behavior. So, if your manager were making comments about white mediocrity, you would be on solid grounds bringing up a concern about how your reviews are going to be affected by this stuff that he’s expressing. Or if this colleague starts saying rude things to you or about you that’s something you can also bring to them.

    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Seconding what CherryBlossom said, but also white person to white person in general: you have to get over the idea that when someone talks about stuff like “white mediocrity”, they’re talking about you specifically. And if for some reason they were talking about you specifically that’s an invitation to actually take a hard look at yourself to see what prompted it, because I promise you white folks are exceptionally good at not noticing the ways in which we are, indeed, mediocre but have been buoyed along by white privilege. Your example of you both being second gen immigrants is illustrative: you might be second gen, but you still benefit from the effects of whiteness in your workplace in a way your colleague doesn’t.

      Your colleague could probably find better ways of discussing systemic bias in the workplace than just interjecting “White mediocrity!” into the convo unprompted, but I’d be curious if it was actually unprompted or if you weren’t able to make the same connections he did that prompted it, similar to how you think being 2nd gen immigrants is somehow equalizing. It’s okay to not know or see these kinds of connections — everyone is at different stages in learning this stuff, including your colleague — but I’ve found the best reaction when I feel like I’ve got my back up about something like this is to ask myself “What don’t I know?” or “What aren’t I seeing here?” and try to be more thoughtful about it.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I agree with this, and as a fellow white person, I would encourage OP to examine why these comment make her uncomfortable, or why she doesn’t believe he would experience that much racism. Introspection is called for here.

      3. Poet*

        Your colleague could probably find better ways of discussing systemic bias in the workplace than just interjecting “White mediocrity!” into the convo unprompted, but I’d be curious if it was actually unprompted or if you weren’t able to make the same connections he did that prompted it,

        We work in a SWE department, and if something like an external API isn’t working, he’ll say something like “you know it must’ve been made by a mediocre white man!”. I mentioned that elsewhere, but it’s not your responsibility to read every comment, so no big deal. :)

        similar to how you think being 2nd gen immigrants is somehow equalizing.

        I meant it to say that while our experiences are not equal, I can relate and extrapolate somewhat. Please don’t assume the worst of others and use that as a launchpad to attack them – Alison says that in the rules.

        1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

          I don’t see anything in Caramel & Cheddar’s comment that is “assum[ing] the worst of others and us[ing] that as a launchpad to attack them.”

          They used the info provided in the original comment to suggest alternative reasons and reactions on your part. Pretty calmly, actually. Encouraging self-reflection is not an attack. :)

        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          If I was assuming the worst of you and using it as a launchpad to attack you, my comment would have read much differently. I invite you, again, to examine the reasons why you may have your back up when someone, in this case pretty gently, pushes you to think more about why you’re feeling the way you do.

        4. Observer*

          I meant it to say that while our experiences are not equal, I can relate and extrapolate somewhat.

          Yeah, as the daughter and wife of immigrants, I can tell you that it’s highly unlikely that you can extrapolate anywhere near the level that you think you can. Some people are pretty good at it, but not everyone. And given the rest of your comment, I suspect that you are nowhere near as good as you think.

        5. Yankees fans are awesome*

          I wouldn’t bother, Poet. Here, with rare exception, you will be deemed to be in the wrong, full stop; there is no escaping that fact no matter how valid your question. It’s a common hammer looking for any available nail situation, unfortunately.

          On that note, and FWIW, I agree with Observer’s comment above 100%.

        6. Elizabeth West*

          Right there is an opportunity for you. Use that reaction to examine WHY you had that reaction. I’m white also and I saw no attack in the comment, just “Hey, you may not know, so here is how to do the work it was kindly suggested that you do.”

          When we first start to deal with the unconscious (or conscious) bias that all white people have, it can be uncomfortable. We have to be okay with being uncomfortable once in a while — that’s how we learn.

        7. Observer*

          I meant it to say that while our experiences are not equal, I can relate and extrapolate somewhat

          Understood. What you seem to be missing is that there is a limit to that.

          Some people *are* really good at this, but not everyone. And based on the rest of your comment, I think that you are nowhere as good at it as you seem to think. Which is ok, as long as you recognize this.

          As a daughter, wife and relative of immigrants, I can tell you that the experience of immigrants is not universal. Your experience as white child of immigrants is going to be very different from the experience of children who are visibly different from the “mainstream”. And if your parents’ first language was English vs any other language (even if those parents learn to speak English very well) that’s also going to make a huge difference in the experience of a child growing up with it.

        8. Melty Snowman*

          “you know it must’ve been made by a mediocre white man!”

          Completely unnecessary and racist comment. Your coworker has issues, justified by other’s actions or not.

        9. Irish Teacher.*

          We work in a SWE department, and if something like an external API isn’t working, he’ll say something like “you know it must’ve been made by a mediocre white man!”. I mentioned that elsewhere, but it’s not your responsibility to read every comment, so no big deal. :)

          I wouldn’t make too much of this. I’d just take it to mean, it must have been made by somebody incompetent who only got their position through privilege rather than “must have been made by somebody white and male since those people are useless.”

          Generally, referencing mediocre white males in that context isn’t implying that white males are less competent than people of other genders and races, just that the incompetent ones are more likely to get jobs/promotions than incompetent people of other genders and races. Which…is true really. People of other races and genders often are held to higher standards.

      4. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

        Excellent comment. I will also add that if you are new and this is a senior colleague who is making these comments in the open, there is a very good chance that what he’s doing is fine with your workplace.

        I’ve re-read Poet’s comment like 5 times to try and give it a fair shake but it does come off as offended white fragility and maybe I’m not seeing the whole picture, but I hope Poet strongly considers why they’re feeling so weird about this. The hypothetical 360 review is a reach and presumably if you aren’t mediocre then you have nothing to worry about.

        1. Seashell*

          I think it shows poor judgment to generalize about people in the workplace on the basis of something they can’t control or change. The other post indicating that this guy is talking about “Karens” indicate that he’s fine with sexism.

        2. Poet*

          I feel offended by this because my parents are Ukrainian Jews, and I’ve received plenty of comments referencing many stereotypes about both those groups, but mostly Jewish people. Discarding the debate about Jewishness and whiteness, and how they intersect, I think that it’s justifiable for anyone to be offended by a comment that’s like “all X are like this.” That does not mean that we ignore past or present institutional racism, it means that everyone, society, the world as a whole should move on from bigotry and stereotyping.

          1. Observer*

            I feel offended by this because my parents are Ukrainian Jews, and I’ve received plenty of comments referencing many stereotypes about both those groups, but mostly Jewish people.

            You’ve received comments. But the thing is that if you are not visibly Jewish you’re not likely to get stopped in the street by someone who decides that you “don’t belong here” or other types of street harassment. And if you don’t attend Jewish spaces on a regular basis (eg a synagogue), you are not likely experience the ongoing harassment that comes up all too often.

            The specific workplace behavior you are describing does sound problematic. But your comments about his experience in the world are problematic. And, again unless he’s in your chain of command, your concern about how it might directly affect you is a bit over-wrought.

            Which makes me wonder about something. Have you been subject to so much antisemitism that this is your “normal”? If yes, why would you think that his experience of racism is substantially different? (Remember, he can’t even “pass” as white, while you probably can.) If this has not been your experience, why are you jumping to such a level of risk to yourself while downplaying his possible experience?

            Your thought that it’s because you are in a “liberal” city ignores reality. NYC, where I grew up was always considered a “liberal” city, but I remember a time when crimes against obvious Jews (and Blacks, tbh) were just not taken seriously. I mean like calling 911 about a crime in progress and not getting any response level of “not seriously”. That’s fortunately history, but the bigotry that was the underpinning of that kind of thing is still alive and well, unfortunately.

          2. MouseMouseMouse*

            What is it that you feel offended by? The term “white fragility”? The comments saying “you have nothing to worry about”?

      5. Busy Middle Manager*

        Off of reddit/parts of twitter, it’s going to be viewed very oddly and unprofessional to mention in a meeting. You mention “there might be other causes” – well mention those specifically. “Sally’s code didn’t work again.” Why resort to a vague sociology term that incriminates multiple people while not even stating what the problem is, let alone propose a solution? That’s not how even very progressive workplaces function!

      6. Tea Monk*

        Yea the way he’s saying it is a bit much, but we don’t want to become the sort of people who sues for discrimination if there’s an Asian ERG or something. You both need to think about how you’re coming off to the other.

    7. AngryOwl*

      I think this might be a good opportunity to inspect some of your own reactions/assumptions, namely:
      – That big, liberal cities inherently have less racism (it may be less *overt*, but it’s very likely still there in full).
      – That him taking credit for your work is an example that came to mind (why?).
      – That you’re categorizing his reaction to the racism he’s experienced as “totally not sane.”

      Your comment here has an air of discounting his experiences — I say this not because I think that’s what you’re *trying* to do, but because if that’s how it comes off here, it very possibly will if you try to raise it at your company and will not lead to any kind of positive resolution.

      Stop looking at his social media and focus on what’s happening in person. Note comments that make you uncomfortable, be really clear on *why* they make you uncomfortable, and you’ll be in a better place to talk with your boss—if you do decide that this is something you feel you need to tackle.

    8. Anonymous By Choice For This*

      As an observation, I work in a workplace where publically being aware of people’s personal social media is generally frowned upon. It is always interesting to read from perspectives and questions from those where that does not appear to be case.

      The question strikes me as being outside of your jurisdiction. As far as your comment about “weird fan fiction passed off as a true story to me” Yikes!

      @CherryBlossom, Brava! I too live in a liberal progressive haven. That’s calmest I can be right now. I’ve seen the comments (including my own) that get removed regarding race. I don’t seem to have the knack for striking the right tone.

    9. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I wouldn’t. Using your limited capital to go to HR over something that’s on his personal social that you acknowledge may have genuinely happened to him, based on a theoretical “what if this impacts my 360 in the future” concern – that’s a hard sell. Your colleagues likely have established opinions about him and his judgement – but they’re just forming their opinions about you and your judgement. Do you want one of their early impressions to be “told HR a colleague was racially targeting you based on posts of their personal experiences with racism on their personal social media?”

      It would be reasonable to call out the comments at work, in the moment, though. Like if he says something about “white mediocrity” in a meeting, you can say “whoa, that’s a racially loaded term that strikes me as inappropriate at work, can we stay focused on [substantive work issue]?”

    10. tabloidtainted*

      I’ll add another voice as a woman of color (South Asian)—what he is saying is inappropriate for a workplace and there are people of color, especially in senior positions, who don’t realize that they are capable of contributing to toxic workplace habits by talking about race the way they might talk about it amongst friends or online. And men of color seem to feel they have a free pass to be misogynistic if their criticism of (always women) is race-based.

      I would, however, recommend being cautious as a new employee about reporting to HR. Instead, maybe bring concerns about his workplace behavior to your boss.

      1. Poet*

        And men of color seem to feel they have a free pass to be misogynistic if their criticism of (always women) is race-based.

        As a white man with progressive politics (some would phrase it “progressive white man,” but I disagree, that puts a certain emphasis on the politics, which you can’t see that if you see me on the street or at the store, while there are a ton of things that you or I can see about each other from a glance), I see many other white men who self-ID as liberal, left-wing, progressive, etc. making similar comments to white women. That’s not to diminish anyone’s experience, but to concur with you that misogyny is pervasive, and never acceptable. Bias and prejudice are bad, and it’s kind of a bummer in this case as this guy and probably agree on most everything and would likely be great friends if he wasn’t so weirdly aggressive about it.

        My stance is genuinely: “hey, you are very justified in feeling a certain way and even assuming a random white person you don’t really know holds negative stereotypical beliefs about you, because there’s a lot of white people here who do think that way, but the weirdly, inappropriately hostile tone makes me feel worse about you.”

      2. Yankees fans are awesome*

        Great post, tabloidtainted. I know exactly what you mean, both professionally and personally. Ultimately, toxic is toxic.

    11. Accurate Tackurate*

      Liberal city or not–as someone who lives near Springfield, Ohio, let me assure you these things are probably happening to your coworker on a regular basis.

      1. Poet*

        Whether or not you live in Springfield OH, that doesn’t seem particularly relevant. The horrible racist libels being spread over the summer were about Haitians in Springfield. Bigotry and negative stereotypes are real, and should be diminished, but those situations are two very distinct ones.

        1. Accurate Tackurate*

          I invoked the city as a matter of ethos. I have friends, relative, former co-workers, etc. who live in Springfield (a liberal city although in a red state) and have shared the horrible things happening to them as a member of any BIPOC background–not just Haitians.

          If calling the cops on people while walking their dog seems “like weird fan fiction passed off as a true story” to you, you have little understanding about what racism looks like.

        2. Observer*

          Bigotry and negative stereotypes are real, and should be diminished, but those situations are two very distinct ones.

          Not really. The stereotypes about people of Southeast Asia eating “pets” are very deep rooted. Which means that if it’s been happening i Springfield since these accusations hit the papers, it’s probably been happening for a long time elsewhere to people in that demographic.

          Also, you seem to be unaware that a lot of people either don’t know or don’t care that the accusations actually referred to Haitians. All they “know” is that “those terrible illegals” are stealing pets and eating them. Which means, in their minds, that if someone who “looks foreign” is walking with a dog, it’s “reasonable” to suspect them.

          It’s ridiculous. It may even be unhinged. But it’s still real.

    12. Cordelia*

      Do you genuinely not believe that people of colour living in a diverse liberal city don’t experience racism? You’d accept that it could happen once, but anything more than that is “fan fiction?”
      I haven’t read anything that suggests he might be going to give you a negative review because of racial prejudice, or take credit for your work – that sounds like the fan fiction in this story.

    13. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      I think this post is great for the phrase: “You can love the employee and loathe the person. And you can dislike the employee and really like the person.”

      As Alison says, focus on the issues relate to their performance at work (if you’re their leader) or on getting your own work done. Social media use is not your concerns, especially if they are getting their work done without an impact to you. It seems like, from your post, that isn’t happening since the comment only includes a few hypothetical outcomes at the end.

      If the comments AT WORK are creating a hostile work environment or making you uncomfortable, you can go to HR. But the rest needs to be left out of the meeting.

    14. Busy Middle Manager*

      I think some of the comments are missing how some people operate on social media and are assuming everything is meant to be literal and truthful. I have a second cousin who does what you’re suspecting the coworker does. Constant posts that have “and everyone clapped” endings that seem ridiculously fake or logistically tough to occur, yet people respond that they hope she’s OK and they’re upset the thing happened to her. After the umpteenth story of a “Karen” or someone screaming at her out of a car window or of refusing her service, we’ve surmised she’s knowingly making up stuff to fill a psychological void, or to gain followers, or gets off mentally on the rage bait and attention from responses.

      People who don’t do it or see it don’t realize it’s a trend. Look at malicious compliance stories. 70% are impossible, yet there they are.

      It’s also very possible that one incidence gets rewritten to appear like multiple incidences.

      1. MouseMouseMouse*

        But like… does your second cousin get colleagues complaining to their HR over things she said on social media?? Genuine question, as I’m assuming you shared her story for relevance.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          I wouldn’t know, but why did that need to happen for my story to be relevant? 80% of the OP’s comment is “am I crazy for thinking this,” which is what I was addressing. I am also addressing the bulk of other comments that have taken the “don’t ever question the veracity of twitter posts” stance which I am disagreeing with. I didn’t comment either way on whether people go to HR

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            No one is saying “don’t every question the veracity of twitter posts” they’re saying “don’t assume you’re the expert on the racism other people say they are experiencing.” There’s a reason why a lot of people are saying to ignore the social media posts entirely: because you don’t know if they’re true or not, and ultimately don’t matter for the advice on offer.

          2. MouseMouseMouse*

            Here’s the OP’s question:

            “Would it be that bad of me, as a new employee, to bring this to HR?”

            Let’s assume the “this” in their question includes the fake posting, which is what you referenced.

            I read the others comments as saying “don’t assume that the racist incidents described on social media are ‘not totally sane'”. You say that the commenters said “don’t ever question the veracity of twitter posts”. Can you please quote exactly which comment said that?

            Because if you can’t, and if you have no opinions on the actual work situation, then unfortunately, yes, your story is irrelevant.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I don’t think people are saying that nobody does what he suspects his coworker does. Sure, people lie on social media. But there is no evidence his coworker does. Maybe the coworker is lying. Maybe he’s not. Without evidence to prove otherwise and with no real reason to particularly care, it’s generally best to assume the coworker is telling the truth, although perhaps keep an eye out for other indications the coworker might be given to exaggeration.

    15. WoodswomanWrites*

      I’m addressing here only what your colleague has said at work. His social media is not relevant to your work situation. Here’s an approach that avoids starting with an antagonistic action of reporting him to HR.

      As a white person who is actively engaged in anti-racism work, I’m wondering if there’s a reason you don’t ask him directly about his comments at work one on one. I mean initiating the dialogue politely with the perspective of listening to hear about his experience. I see that as starting with something along the lines of asking if he’s open to talking about a comment you’ve heard him make in meetings so you can understand.

      I had to learn through formal trainings how easy it used to be for me to make assumptions about the experiences of people of color based on being white in the US, even having grown up in a multicultural community. Hearing a story like yours makes me think that this is a time to engage and learn.

      Come into the conversation by asking if this is a good time to talk and saying you want to understand something he often says. If he says yes, you can bring it up in a way that’s just a question about why he says it. Remember that you are walking into a conversation with an inherent racial power imbalance and he may be annoyed and/or defensive. It’s important to not argue with that.

      I can’t map the conversation for you, but the key on your end is an open dialogue, not coming in with an agenda of being “right” but instead an approach of empathy, understanding, and problem-solving. You’ve having a conversation, not an argument, and you want to respect whatever he shares as genuine. I hope that through that, you can share how his comments land for you.

      All of this said, consider your timing. Since you’re new and he’s senior, this may not be a conversation you want to initiate until you’ve been in your workplace longer and he has gotten to know you as a trustworthy person. You want to come out of the conversation just as trustworthy as you were when you started it.

      Will this be uncomfortable for you? Probably. Will it go perfectly? Probably not. But it sounds like the right thing to do in your situation regardless. An imperfect conversation is better than none.

      1. Yankees fans are awesome*

        As a woman, I’d have a reeeaaallly hard time being empathetic with, and understanding of, anyone labeling me as a “Karen” because I’m a woman.

        I’m also part Middle Eastern, yet look more like the Caucasian side of me. Yet, a ME co-worker or two (really, a few) have informed me that I should be more understanding of MEs that generalize, stereotype, etc., which is truly a savage irony, especially considering the behavior and comments I’ve endured.

        Some behavior simply doesn’t deserve to be understood.

        1. WoodswomanWrites*

          First, I missed the part about gender and you are spot on.

          I’m realizing that I left out a very important part of my post, which is that the goal is to change his behavior. My advice was about how to discuss it *including* that the language is offensive with the goal of getting him to stop. What he is saying is not okay in any way, and I apologize for implying that it is.

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I would suggest taking a step back from the implications and simply call out the work comments in the moment.

      I’ve seen people get a lot of mileage from the phrase, “Hey–I resemble that remark!” If you want to get serious follow that up with a statement that it’s not a great look for him to make sweeping generalizations along racial lines.

    17. Msd*

      I think we can all agree that no one at work should say “must have been made by a mediocre ”. Maybe say “must have been made by a two year old”. When someone does say “mediocre ” reply with “ouch” and continue on as though the words hadn’t been uttered.

  6. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

    I did not think that my first Friday afternoon of 2024 would be (literally) filled with job interviews but in a couple of hours, I’ll first be speaking with a hiring manager at Company A and after an intermission, a hiring manager and 2 team members at Company B. Both are 100% virtual.

    How I got to here- I was contacted for HR/TA phone screens for both on the same day (but chose not to schedule them on the same day). All my correspondence with Company A was last week but Company B’s happened extremely fast- all on New Year’s Eve Day!

    What I’m the most nervous about answering is “icebreaker”-type questions. I have social anxiety and no serious “interests” to speak of- work is truthfully where the majority of my socialization occurs. but I’ve been trying to think of some general “fun facts” that might make for a little less awkward silence. So far, I’m almost stumped- the only one I’ve come up with is saying how many states I’ve been to (23, with notable omissions) but even then, I’m not so sure if that would even be appropriate.

    To the socialites, extroverts or anyone who’s interviewed recently- I welcome all suggestions.

    1. my cat is prettier than me*

      Social butterfly here, and I think that’s a great fun fact. Maybe prepare for some follow up questions like, “which was your favorite?” or “what’s the coolest thing you saw?”

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        Thanks- sounds like a real possibility. The awkward part is I haven’t added to that total in 15 years so I’m really just going off of what I enjoyed the most (but they don’t have to know that ;p).

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          That in itself gives you another point of casual conversation — Are you hoping to add to that number in the near future?

          If the job involves travel, you can even point out that it means you like traveling.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      “Any trips planned in the new year?” or “Any fun plans for the new year?”

      This can then segue to past trips, which is a reliable polite chit chat topic.

      Also, in all seriousness: Do you know anyone who recently got an adorable pet, and would give you an anecdote to share? “Adorable puppies” is a winner for a reason.

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        Pets is an interesting topic- while I don’t own any, there’s something about a Labrador with its tongue out will always put a smile on my face.

        Somewhat similar- I also don’t have any children but am a millennial woman so a number of acquaintances/people I’ve known in the past are starting families- I suppose I could say that I got a chance to see one of my friends’ who moved away’s infant on camera for the first time last week or how my cousin’s toddler is learning new words and things so fast.

        1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

          As a hiring manager, I would adore this response in an interview if the candidate was asked about pets: “while I don’t own any, there’s something about a Labrador with its tongue out will always put a smile on my face.” It reveals some of your personality and anyone who hates animals is a terrible person (hyperbole) in my book.

    3. VoPo*

      It sounds to me like you do have an interest in travel! If you get a “what do you like to do outside of work?” question, you could say something like “I like to see new places. I’ve actually been to 23 different states!” or something like that. Also interests don’t have to be social. What do you do when you aren’t at work? Read? Watch tv? Go for a run? All of that counts.

      And remember, these are interviews. You can keep the outside of work stuff pretty short. The focus should be on your fit for the role/company.

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        LOL- I mentioned in a reply above that all of my travels were basically during my teen and college years so at the moment, I really don’t have an interest in travel. The pandemic probably exacerbated that even more.

        Regarding entertainment, some of my music tastes are NSFW and I definitely watch more Youtube than traditional TV and movies where I’ve found some semi-educational rabbit holes lately (genealogy, anti-MLM). I also know that despite what some might think, sports is not an appropriate topic to bring up in an interview unless the interviewer had a poster on their wall of a team or athlete you like.

        The last interview I had where I was asked some variant of what I like to do in my spare time, I don’t remember exactly what I said but I think it was something along the lines of I just like to drive around and I’ve always loved to use the computer (yes I am in IT).

        1. Elsewise*

          How about something like:

          “So what do you do outside of work?”
          “Well, like any good IT professional, I spend a lot of my downtime time on my computer. Lately I’ve been going on some educational deep dives on a few different topics. I’ve also traveled a lot. I’ve been to 23 states. Just two more and I’ll have hit the halfway mark!”

          That puts the travel at the end so it’s what people are most likely to ask follow-up questions on (if they do ask about your deep dives, I’d avoid saying anti-MLM, as some people might be a little put off by that if they’re in an MLM.) It also leaves your travel as past tense without drawing attention to it.

        2. Kes*

          use the computer is maybe a bit vague for an IT position but I think a lot of this is how you position things, for example – “In the past I’ve done more travel – I’ve actually been to 23 states – but these days my travels are more limited to going for drives around the area. I also like to learn about different things – recently I’ve been getting into genealogy and learning about x aspect” (I would play it safe and not bring MLMs into the conversation, but nothing wrong with genealogy). I would be prepared for follow up questions like what’s your favourite part of the area to drive around or what’s the interesting thing you’ve learned about genealogy

          1. Frieda*

            The genealogy example seems good to me too – you could easily create a list in advance of interesting things you’ve learned (just from my own list: a great-aunt lived in MyTown for a few years, even though my family is all from OtherDistantState; I was able to learn the address of, and then see the house my grandparents rented when my dad was a toddler on Google Earth; both sides of my family had homesteads in the same area but didn’t know each other before my parents met; my grandmother and her sibling lived in the same small town as Important Historical Figure and there are some sweet stories about her in a family memoir.) Or even: I’ve learned a lot about how my family’s story fits into historical patterns of migration/agriculture/etc.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Genealogy might get you into a really deep rabbit hole in the interview too — People who are into it can be Really into it!

        4. Sara K*

          As someone who also heads down a few youtube rabbit holes from time to time, a fun thing to talk about is the way the algorithm decides what you ‘like’ and how sometimes that can be really on point and other times so, so off. If you have any examples of that, it can be a funny and light kind of icebreaker. So for example, “Lately I’ve been getting really interested in genealogy, especially as it relates to X and Y, and I’ve watched some really fascinating documentaries/vlogs/presentations. But of course now the algorithm knows I’m into family trees and it keeps trying to show me videos about the history of the Danish monarchy for some reason. I have nothing against the Danish monarchy but it’s not really what I’m looking for, you know?” This can all be said with a smile and a shrug of the shoulders because I’m pretty sure this is a universal experience and so it’s a good way to talk about something relatable.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      I’m an extrovert and have conducted a lot of interviews, but I don’t think I ever really ask icebreaker questions like that. My icebreaker is usually “what interested you in this role/our organization?” Then I plunge into the behavioral interview questions to draw out how people handle various situations and challenges in the workplace and get an idea of what they would be like as an employee, colleague, or boss. If you want to be prepared to talk about your non-work self, I think travel is one that is nicely innocuous and easy to talk about. Think about some high points of your travels or maybe funny stories about what has happened to you while traveling. Or you can talk about books you’re reading/have read recently, as long as they’re the kind of thing that you’re comfortable discussing in a work environment.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Congratulations and good luck on the interviews!

      For small talk/interests/icebreaker ideas, do you ever do any of the following activities:
      – watch TV shows
      – watch sports
      – watch movies
      – read books
      – cook food
      – something in the realm of hobbies/repairs, such as knitting, sewing, car repairs, home repairs, etc.

      Remember that the point of small talk/interests/fun facts isn’t to get to some sort of “deep truth” about you as a person. Ideally it helps both you and the interviewer feel a little more comfortable. So even if you aren’t a big movie buff, saying “I recently saw [Wicked/Gladiator/etc.]” can give your interviewer something to relate to. Similarly, you don’t have to love cooking or home repairs to make a bit of polite chit chat about it during an interview. “Oh, outside of work I mostly spend my time puttering around the house. Seems like there’s always something that needs [fixing/improving/to be done].”

      I think your 23 states fact is OK, not great but not bad. If there’s a little something extra you can tack on to it (along the lines of “including Alaska during the winter” or “and my favorite one to visit is Wyoming”) that would give your interviewer a few more things to respond to/comment on.

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        Ah- you gave me another thought with the movie suggestion- I could simply mention the last movie I saw (which ironically enough was Boss Baby).

      2. Jack Straw from Wichita*

        Years ago, I was asked in an interview what the most recent book I read was, so I’m always prepared for that question with both a fiction title and a professional development book I can talk about. (They asked for both since it was an interview to be an English teacher.)

        This can also be answered using podcasts: “I’m not much of a reader, but I listen to a ton of podcasts. My favorite ones are___________. [or] There was a really interesting one on ______ that I listened to recently.””

    6. DisneyChannelThis*

      Read a book / Listen to audiobook. Then you’ll have a great one to use in the future. It’s broad enough to have a lot of follow up options (I’m thinking about trying the goodreads 52 books in a year challenge, I want home reno to have built in shelves, I collect bookmarks, I’m the last holdout not owning a kindle or I love my ereader, I discovered Im a fan of audiobooks at 1.5 speed isnt that fascinating etc) and good segues back to the other person (what’s your favorite genre, what do you think of the new e readers, do you use the library libby app).

      Pick a favorite animal. My fun fact is my favorite animal is X. I’m so glad the (nearby zoo) has one/I can’t wait to travel to (far away) zoo sometime to see it. My wall calendar this year is all animal Xs. Expand back on other city attractions, or tourist city with zoo attractiosn. Or go the Did you have a favorite animal as a kid? Is it the same animal as an adult?

      Pick a favorite food. Similar to animal, name a resteraunt you like or want to try. If job is in new to you city, ask about it. (Tacos, I love the taco gas station truck we have here in X, how’s the foodie scene over in Y?)

      The social questions in an interview are just there to see how well you interact with other. And maybe to ease into the interview. From the other side of the table, I’m looking at can you be friendly, do you treat men/women/different ages equally in that moment, nothing deep. Everyone will have some level of interaction socially at work, being friendly makes it easier to train you, easier for you to train others, easier for you to share knowledge.

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        I really like the point in your last paragraph and I’ve definitely been rehearsing some answers/discussion points I may be asked about and how to sound my best.

        1. Marz*

          I found at my last job interview we had a little extra time and it depends on who you are talking to but I’ve found a good bet is to ask things about the job itself, anything you had trouble with/questions about. Mine was in person job so you might not have this, but like, they will ask about how you got in, you say something about parking, where you live, how far/close/easy the commute was, ask about their commute/the parking. My interviewer said he biked to work, we talked about biking, etc. So yeah, it is just about being personable but maybe be ready to fill some of those moments with a question or two that could lead somewhere and is something you genuinely want to know about, you might learn something and it’ll be generic enough that you’ll have something to say.

      2. Heidi*

        I second the suggestion about discussing a book you’re reading. You don’t even need to have read the whole thing, just talk about what you’ve read so far. With movies and TV, a lot of people don’t want to be spoiled with too much info, but that doesn’t seem to be as much of a problem with books.

    7. Yankees fans are awesome*

      I’m not sure whether you should have to work so hard to prepare, so I’d cut yourself a break. Be yourself and make the best of the interviews. Both places value you as a candidate, so start with that. If either or both places emphasize the “trivia about you,” perhaps it wouldn’t be a good fit, anyway.

      Good luck!

  7. Cabbagepants*

    I’m putting in my notice this afternoon. tips on what to say? I like and respect my boss enough that I can’t just say “I’m leaving in two weeks for new opportunities” and then mic drop.

    In my past career review, I emphasized that I wanted to be promoted because I would see it as recognition of my accomplishments.

    I got promoted (yay!) but still am deeply bored by the work, and there are cultural issues that I don’t think are going away any time fast. I’m in a remote branch of a large company and the big decisions are always going to be made at the headquarters. I don’t want to move. but I feel that I’ll never really have ownership of my work as a result.

    Any tips for what to say to my (local) boss when I give him my notice? I respect him a lot and I know he went to bat to get me this promotion. he has enough pride that I don’t want to say anything that he could take as reflecting badly on him. like if I say “the big decisions are made at headquarters” then he might take that to mean that he is not an important player making big decisions. (which I do believe but I think he is in denial.)

    1. Lissa Landon*

      I’d suggest having a piece of paper that simply says that you are resigning your position for new opportunities and your last day will be xxx. Thank you for the opportunities I’ve been given here.

      Then, when you go to give that to your boss, just tell him that you got a great opportunity that you couldn’t pass up, and that you appreciate all he has done to support your career. Answer any questions he has and then thank him again and get out!

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      “I wanted to let you know that I’ve accepted a new opportunity and my last day will be X. I really appreciate all of your support and mentorship over the past X years (add specifics as you like) and hope our professional paths will cross again in the future.”

    3. Just here for the scripts*

      Have the bare-bones 2-week notice in writing to hand in. As for conversion, I’m not sure that you really need to elaborate the way you think you do. If you do, you can say nice things about him “I learned a lot from you” (which is true—like the fact that decisions are made elsewhere), “I appreciate the support, and I know the timing isn’t great, but this opportunity just fell in my lap”, etc..

    4. Parenthesis Guy*

      There’s not much you can do at this point. Did you talk to him about how you were deeply bored by the work and wanted to do something else? If not, I don’t think you can be surprised if he’s annoyed.

      I might mention that I didn’t feel like it was a good fit here, but then, he may not be happy that you didn’t give him a heads up. So, I’d probably go with the strategy of saying I got a great opportunity fall into my lap and couldn’t say no.

      1. Kes*

        Yeah I wouldn’t bring up that you were bored or didn’t feel it was a good fit. Don’t burn any bridges. Do make it clear that you’ve appreciated his support in your time there. If the question of why you’re leaving comes up, you can either keep it vague and just say a great opportunity came up as others have said, or if you do need to mention something, try to keep it positive, same as you would in a job interview, on what great aspect of the new job made it impossible to turn down (higher salary, opportunity to really take ownership of a bigger area, etc)

    5. ecnaseener*

      I actually wrote out a whole little script for myself because I was so nervous! I don’t still have it, but it was basically “I have some bittersweet news…I’ve accepted another job, so I need to give you my notice” and then a bunch of lines/responses that could be slotted in in any order, like “I’ve really enjoyed my time here and I’ll be sad to leave, but I’m excited for this new job” and “thank you for being such a great manager” and all that good stuff.

      If your promotion was recent, I’d lean a bit more heavily on the “I so appreciate you going to bat for me and I’m sorry the timing is so bad, this fell into my lap” angle.

  8. Peep*

    Low stakes but looking for new ideas! My workplace (historic/cultural museum) is going through a renovation of public spaces for the first time in 25 years since it opened. It will be pretty different, and I’m attached to certain details. I have a few more open public days (Sunday is the last public day), including a festival, and then we’ll be doing a lot behind the scenes after that to prep. (aka, I’ll be on site / not blocked off immediately.)

    Is there anything particular you might take note of, at your work / somewhere you have memories? I plan to take photos, some timelapse video, and maybe some audio snippets of different spaces, but I’d love input on ways you memorialize spaces. Happy new year, AAM folk.

      1. Peep*

        Oh, this is a beautiful memorial to such a nice old building. Thank you for sharing! I love the casting idea, and the rubbings. The photos are touching!

    2. Bike Walk Barb*

      Attached to certain details meaning the existing spaces, not the new things, I take it. Is there any chance they’re removing something you could actually have a small piece of to make a paperweight or other suitable item? If so that would need to be arranged for before they start the renovation work. I’m thinking of things like a piece of molding, flooring, etc. Could be something bigger if it’s possible and if it interests you–things like a window that could be turned into an indoor or outdoor art piece. Someone in my neighborhood put out a call for doors people weren’t using and turned them into an amazing fence painted different colors.

      1. Peep*

        Oh, yes, you’re right — I’m attached to the existing spaces. (The external walls will be the same, but the internal bits will be scrambled.) That’s a great idea about the flooring as a paperweight!! Thank you! I do love the flooring, I’m not sure if it will be changed, but I’m sure a little piece could come to us/me. :D (It’s made of end cuts of wood turned on their sides, like old printing press rooms. So simple but neat.) I love that idea of old doors as a fence, too! Your ideas are giving me ideas to see about repurposing removed details — our behind the scenes area often has little “historical monuments” to previous exhibits/etc so this would be great. Thank you for the brain sparks!!

        1. LMS manager*

          Maybe your patrons would also like sentimental reminders of the old building. You could use this as a potential fundraiser!

  9. Out of options*

    I’m probably going to get fired soon. So … I wanted to check if there is any hope in my situation.

    I have 20+ years of experience and work in (supposedly strategic) external affairs in a rapidly growing startup. I have a first-time manager (“J”), and until recently it was just the two of us plus some consultants.

    J is … beyond difficult. Toxic and narcissistic seem like only the tip of the iceberg. They micromanage, only provide negative feedback, aren’t communicative, and always think they are right – and every deliverable is wrong unless it is exactly how they would have done it. When they think of something to do, it needs to be done right away, no matter what. (I work 70-80 hours a week on one to two dozen projects, so it’s impossible to prioritize everything.) They are not open to feedback and get visibly annoyed if you disagree with them about anything. They don’t let me take any high-level engagements on my own (or speak in the ones I attend with them), and berate me about the wording of routine emails. They swoop into random situations and leave chaos everywhere. They don’t like doing regular management work. I’ve never had a performance or growth discussion; we have no objectives, job descriptions, or strategy docs, and wing everything. I’ve worked in politics and other high-stakes jobs but have never encountered someone like this before. The military is less hierarchical than our two-person team, and at least in prior jobs with bad managers it felt like a team working towards a common mission, instead of serf and lord.

    After a brief honeymoon period, J seemed to sour on me after our company started growing quickly and we organized a big public event, where J treated me like a line chef and assigned me hundreds of logistics tasks. They routinely blew up the project plan when they fixated on one thing and felt it needed to move faster, or arbitrarily changed their mind on event scope or direction. After three 90-hour weeks in a row, I said once that I was too busy to do something right away because I needed to do the other dozen urgent things they had assigned me that day. I know I shouldn’t have said that, but it seems a bit much to never be forgiven either. Following the event (which was a complete success) I was dressed down for an entire hour on how everything I had ever done at the company was wrong, told I clearly couldn’t handle the job, and functionally gaslighted.

    I know J is under pressure (e.g. people telling the CEO to get a more experienced hire, now that the role is more high profile). But rather than partner with me to make things work, I am their punching bag. They take credit for everything that goes well and blame me for everything that doesn’t (which is apparently almost everything I do – including the recent event I put on that got international front-page positive news coverage that I got written up for doing “badly”). They uninvite me from meetings I organized, assign me dozens of hours of busywork, and routinely ambush me in our 1:1s. I’m regularly being formally cited for things I was never told to do, or that became irrelevant 6 months ago (like updating a contact spreadsheet when we’ve switched CRMs twice since then).

    The biggest problem is that I don’t know what my job is or how to do it. When I ask for guidance, I’m told “I expect my employees to show initiative” and “your job is to know”; when do work on my own I get chastised “for doing it wrong” or “not having the authority to decide that”. J also doesn’t share relevant info – they recently hired someone new onto the team but didn’t tell me that a role was open, much less that someone had accepted an offer (our process requires at least 6 interviews). When I asked to be notified of proposed changes to the team, they said “I’m telling you now” and shut down further conversation. They also brought on their college buddy as a consultant; her role is seemingly to rubber stamp everything J thinks and she has more authority than me, including participating in hiring discussions, doing hiring manager screens, and essentially serving as a chief of staff.

    I have no idea whether this level of dysfunction is typical of startups or if I won the reverse lottery. Every day there is misery, and I’ve given up on any chance of any promotion, recognition, or even satisfying work. But I’m trying to survive until my first vest a few months off. And I’m just not sure what to do. The company uses “fast fire” so everyone is scared of losing their job and won’t help. HR signs off on the write-ups, and is notorious for protecting management. I can’t transfer departments because the manager of the best option is (reasonably) scared of J retaliating against them if I leave. And J is protected by the CEO and a triple minority with a public profile so I doubt they will ever get fired. I’m job hunting but the market is rough, but frankly I’m incapable of interviewing well right now.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Agreed. This place is full of killer Caerbannog rabbits stuffed full of bees. Run away, run away!

    2. Reba*

      Assuming your vesting is options, my suggestion is to put that factor out of your calculations totally. (If it’s 401k or other incentives this may not apply)

      Your workplace sounds like a never ending series of booby traps. If you can swing it, consider quitting asap. Your job hunt might go better when you are not constantly subjected to stress and overwork.

      Finally, I can hear you are stressed and understandably cynical, but check yourself on the triple minority comment, that’s pretty ugly thinking IMO.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      I don’t see any way you don’t get fired from this job. J is making sure you can’t win or do well enough in their eyes. (Check out the latest Captain Awkward letter for the dating version of this behavior.) Eventually J will probably have enough and then fast fire you right before vesting, just to make sure.

      I’m sorry this is happening to you (though startups are pretty crazy from what I hear). Nothing like a person like this to break your brain :/

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Agreed. At least part of this dysfunctional beatdown is to make sure nobody vests, or at least as few people as possible. Don’t send any more of your energy into that pit, LW.

      2. I Have RBF*

        Eventually J will probably have enough and then fast fire you right before vesting, just to make sure.

        This.

        In that kind of toxic environment, it is often habit to push people hard right up until first vest, then “fast fire” them a week before they vest. It gets them the maximum work product out of a person looking to benefit from those golden handcuffs without actually having to pay out the money.

        Expect to be fired before you vest. Make sure you have “fuck you money” socked away. Because they will fuck you over.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s a startup, and yet you work on “one to two dozen projects” every week.

      I’m struggling to envision a business case or industry where this makes any sense at all.

      Because startups should concentrate on doing a few things well, not throwing spaghetti against the wall.

      Get out.

      1. Out of options*

        These are projects for my boss. Mostly arranging meetings, finding internal company spokespeople, and arranging executive engagements. Most of it is related to the core team function, but my boss is scattershot and doesn’t prioritize. I’m not allowed to decline any inbound meeting requests of any kind (I tried a couple of times and was shot down).

    5. Llellayena*

      How many months is “a few” and is there a risk that they’ll fire you just before you vest to avoid you vesting? If we’re talking 2-4 months and lower risk: head down try not to be noticed then quit once you’re vested (and do a lot of deep breathing). If we’re talking more time than that OR a high risk they’ll drop you before you vest, start job hunting now (you suddenly have a medical issue that requires a lot of appointments…). With 20yrs in you can always tell future employers that you’re trying to hold out with your current company until you’re vested and you have a start date of 2 weeks after vesting.

      1. Out of options*

        It’s a one-year options vesting cliff, 3.5 months away. People get fired here all the time and just disappear, so it always was and is high risk. Especially since my manager seems to dislike me so vehemently and tends to be vindictive/nasty/angry. (Note that was 20 years total experience, I am 8.5 months at this startup.)

        1. I Have RBF*

          If it’s options they usually aren’t worth investing time in hell for. They will fire you before you vest. The company saves the options for the golden children, and they get maximum work out of you by holding that illusory carrot in front of you.

          Run.

        2. Llellayena*

          Ok, that changes the calc slightly. Start job hunting (see aforementioned “medical” issue for the excuse to use the time). It might take 3.5 months to find something anyway, especially if you’re working 70-80 hrs/wk. You’re still valuable enough with 20yrs total experience that asking for a start date past vesting is an option. But with that short a time in the position and the overall risk of an early start up, how valuable is the vesting? Is it worth the hit to your mental health vs what you could get elsewhere with 20yrs experience?

        3. A Significant Tree*

          I would 100% plan on being fired just before that 3.5 month mark. Since working hard isn’t getting you anywhere, I agree with the advice to drop back to 40 hours, let go what you can, and let them fire you when they get around to it. You’re in a no-win situation right now, which sucks and I hate it for you. It truly sounds like your best bet is to claw back some mental energy so you can job search as much as possible.

    6. Lady Lia*

      I think we might we might work for the same asshat. I wish I had some sage advice to offer, but I’m in a very similar situation. Sadly I can only offer sympathy and commiseration. None of this is your fault, but that doesn’t make the reality any easier to bear.

    8. H.C.*

      Staying at that startup looks very no-win; even the prospect of surviving a few months to vest seems dicey given what you said about your employer’s tendency to fast fire.

      Job search & get out ASAP (if you have the financial reserves, I’d even advise get out ASAP then job search for the sake of your well-being); in meantime, try to document all correspondences with J so there’s something you can point to if they or others ask why handled a project/task/etc. a certain way (if those J interactions took place over phone, video meet or in-person, recap/reiterate over email shortly after for that document trail.)

      Good luck!

    9. Double A*

      Drop ALL the extras. Work 40 hours a week. Stop caring even a little. You need to quit, but make them fire you first so you can collect unemployment. This situation sounds utterly insane and you need to get out. Firing sounds like an absolute gift they could give you, so take back control and make that your plan that they will fire you for no good reason. Maybe they won’t get around to it until you vest, or maybe they will. Vesting isn’t worth it.

      90 hours a week is more than 2 full time jobs. Are you really making double what you would if you were in two full time jobs? This job is going to kill you if you stay.

      1. The New Jane*

        This!! I was in a similar situation and stayed until they fired me. I’m sure they hoped I would quit, but I couldn’t afford to. Instead, I saved like crazy while I had the job. When they did fire me after 3 months, I was able to collect unemployment. Between that and my savings, I was okay.

        1. The New Jane*

          To add, I think the OP needs to job hunt immediately, but I don’t think they should quit without having a new job lined up.

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      “your job is to know”

      Is code, nine times out of ten, for “MY job is to know, but I don’t; thus, I project that onto you.”

      This person is trying to deflect their own inevitable destruction onto you. This whole place is a bee swamp and the sooner you leave, the better. Start looking. Never mind, right now, what shape you’re in for interviewing–cross that bridge when you come to it. Right now your brain is set on “I am trapped in this hellhole forevermore and thus must try to secure a berth,” which is blocking actual, real-life options.

      Even if you have to totally switch career paths temporarily, or temp, or take a “regular” job to cover your bills for a while, make getting out of there your one and only priority. J has amply demonstrated that any energy invested in the company is going to be wasted, by them. Don’t keep handing over your work and talent to a human incinerator.

    11. The New Jane*

      Oh, wow. I’m sorry you’re going through this. As others have suggested, I think you need to get out as soon as you can. There is no fixing this. Your company and its leadership (not to mention J) are toxic, and they won’t change.

      I went through something similar a few years ago, but not at a start-up. I replaced a popular employee we’ll call Jane, who had left for a new job. I was given no real training or time to get up to speed. They wanted “plug and play” (their words). I did everything they asked, and there was no pleasing these people. I was fired just before the end of my 90-day probationary period, and I had never been let go by an employer before. The gaslighting I endured was awful. But in the end, I found a job at a much better company with better people, better benefits, and The Bad Place is just a bad memory.

      1. Name Nerd*

        Oh, it looks like a crazy ex-boss of mine is still employed, haha! You even used their correct initial.

        Joking aside though, I have been through this: It’s not worth it. Even the time you took trying to explain why you are justified in feeling trapped wasn’t worth it. I relate to just wanting to explain yourself to anyone who will listen because it is so invalidating to be constantly gaslit and scolded. As someone on the other side of it, you will *never* please J or their ever-shifting expectations. Eventually, J will just fire you. My J got rid of as soon as they had the power to do so.

        It sucks to think you are helpless and cannot fix the situation, but you cannot fix this situation. You can’t win over this boss determined to hate you who has no faith or trust in you. J is making all the decisions because they don’t trust you to make any. They will hate the decisions you made just because it was you made them. In the end, no one will protect you because you are being made an example to set fear in others. I would guess that they will try to keep you from vesting so you may want to just let that go. If you get there, great, but don’t count on it.

        What can you actually do? Act like you are already unemployed. If you have any money to set aside or leave accrued figure out what you need to do now. Are there expenses you can cut out temporarily? Can you use a vacation or sick day and focus on getting your personal stuff in order? Update your LinkedIn profile and add people you think might be useful contacts. Reach out to former colleagues you are on good terms with and let them know you are searching for a new position since your current one isn’t a good fit. Update your resume. You may or may not find another position before being let go, but you need to shift your energy away from defending yourself from J and this toxic place and towards a future where you don’t work there anymore.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      That sounds so hellish I would rather go back to temping. At least tempting you can tell your coordinator that you have unpleasant people around you and want to be reassigned.

      ( And yes, many staffing agencies do provide health coverage for employees who hit a threshold. )

    13. Kay*

      Startups are typically a very challenging environment and new managers usually have lots of struggles – throw those 2 together and it is a recipe for disaster.

      Lots of people hang tightly onto “vesting” in startups, but, do you really think this startup is going to make it long term? Really really stop and think about that. What will you actually get out of this “vesting”? Are you just hanging on to the hope of “vesting” as a way to get out of facing the reality that you need to work on your exit plan? Keep in mind, the statistics for business failure rate is very very high – even for good, functional ones! How are you going to feel if you try to hold on for another few months and in the end your reward is nothing? Hope is a powerful drug, so try and take a step back, analyze your situation, and do your best to make a rational plan for your exit. Wishing you all the best.

    14. I Have RBF*

      The call is coming from inside the house…

      Seriously, this has more red flags than a CCP PLA military parade in Red Square.

      You are burned out and being gaslighted. In your place, I’d be looking for a doctor to prescribe a stress leave. Take two weeks, reset your head, and start applying. You may not feel capable of interviewing, but you have to.

      I would be willing to bet that these people plan to use you up and throw you out. They will keep pushing, gaslighting, and using you until you burn out and flame out in a spectacular fashion.

      Run.

    15. Observer*

      . But I’m trying to survive until my first vest a few months off.

      Forget it. Don’t plan on vesting, because I would be willing to bet that they will make sure to fire you before you vest – even if it’s the *day before* with no notice.

      Get out asap.

    16. Matrix*

      I don’t think it’s worth trying to wait until the vesting TBH. Because this company sounds so poorly run that I don’t actually believe your retirement account is real. So I’d focus on getting the hell out of dodge immediately. Even a desperation job at like, Walmart is probably an improvement, morale-wise, at this point.

    17. Brevity*

      Getting vested in this sh!tshow of a startup isn’t worth it. Leave as soon as financially possible, and then GLASSDOOR their ass.

  10. HannahS*

    Give me your best vegetarian packed lunch ideas–recipes and specific products welcome.

    After working from home for a few months, I am heading back to fairly intense in-person work, which means a return to packed lunches. I really need to pack them the night before. I tend to make the same things again and again: tomato/lentil soup, chickpea and vegetable curry on rice, and egg salad or cheese sandwiches. My sides are always whatever raw fruits or vegetables we have around. I’m bored!

    1. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      My lunch is grapes, cheese, red pepper hummus + everything bagel pita chips, a handful of mixed nuts, and a wrap with lots of spinach, cheese (usually provolone), sauce (usually chipotle ranch), and roasted veggies with either tofu, turkey, or chicken. I sheet pan roast those all together on Sunday and pack the whole week’s worth of lunches in one go. It takes about an hour. I used to do a hard boiled egg in there but I got fed up with boiling eggs. Sometimes I add a V8 juice of some kind for a little sparkle.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I was going to suggest this — the Dash egg cooker makes six or seven eggs at a time. I love mine. You still have to peel them, but plunging them into an ice bath directly afterward helps.

          I have also been known to purchase prepackaged boiled eggs when I just do not have the spoons to prep anything.

    2. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

      I make a lot of chickpea salad – mashed chickpeas / mayo / whatever spices or herbs strike your fancy, maybe some green onions or other aromatics. I might pack with crackers, or bread if we have it.

      Hummus + crudite is also always good, esp if you fancy it up a little (walnut topping? pair with a nice chopped salad of tomato/red onion/pepper?)

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      Grain bowls are great and flexible–I make a couple of dressings and a bunch of roasted veggies and mix and match throughout the week. (Personal fave is a peanut dressing)

      Sesame noodles with a huge pile of cucumbers (like these: https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/08/takeout-style-sesame-noodles-with-cucumber/) also travel well

      These tomato beans are also excellent and pack up well for lunches: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1025325-creamy-spicy-tomato-beans-and-greens?unlocked_article_code=1.mU4.UDRM.BsP_YpoZdFtg&smid=share-url

      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        Yes grain bowls! Mix it up with different grains, different beans, different veggies, different dressings. You can go hot or cold, mild or spicy, sweet or savory – and none of it really requires a recipe, you can work with whatever you’ve got on hand or whatever’s on sale that week.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Hummus with pita and veggies, maybe some tabbouleh, and possibly Armenian string cheese
      Pasta–maybe with some white beans or TSP added in for protein. Easy to make a bunch in advance, portion it out, and freeze the individual portions.
      Veggie chili–you can portion and freeze like with the pasta
      Burrito with rice, beans, and cheese (wrap in foil, then unwrap and heat while covered in the microwave)
      Lentil or bean salads
      Leftover pizza–in fact, make use of leftovers often! Another good one that reheats well or can be enjoyed cold is quiche (I love caramelized onion and mushroom).

    5. ThatGirl*

      Other soups, maybe? Minestrone, vegetarian chili? Other toppers for rice: seasoned black beans + corn + cheese?

      I also like to keep a few frozen meals on hand for when I don’t have good leftovers but don’t want to spend $$ on carryout. Saffron Road and EVOL both have good vegetarian options, among others.

    6. Constance Lloyd*

      I’m not vegetarian, but I am a bean enthusiast, so I have a few vegetarian favorites from Rancho Gordo. I’ll post links in a response to this comment.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        https://www.ranchogordo.com/blogs/recipes/baked-cassoulet-beans-with-summer-squash-corn

        https://www.ranchogordo.com/blogs/recipes/smoky-confit-d-beans-with-olives

        https://www.ranchogordo.com/blogs/recipes/yellow-indian-woman-bean-and-wild-rice-salad

        They’ve renamed the beans used in that final link, but the URL remains unchanged. They have a ton of recipes on their website as well as two cookbooks for further inspiration, if you’re an analog person.

    7. Reba*

      I do the sheet pan meals from Rukmini Iyer and it’s easy enough to pack my lunch at the same time I’m packing up the rest of the dinner leftovers. My most used cookbook at the moment is East by Meera Sodha, the sides and sauces are fantastic, not all the dishes are quick but most are weeknight approachable I would say.
      Hearty soups/stews (I like a white bean soup or beans and greens) or what about baked sweet potato or potato with side of beans?

      1. Imprudence*

        I love a mixture of giant couscous, chick peas and halloumi flavoured with smoked paprika as suggested by Rukmini Iyer. it’s good hot the night before and cold or warm for lunch.

    8. WellRed*

      Big fan of Tex mex inspiration. Burrito bowl with rice, beans, salsa, cheese, guacamole, fajita veggies or anything else you like!

    9. CTT*

      I love to do a faux-Mediterranean pasta salad; bed of pasta, cucumbers, tomatoes, pickled red onion, chickpeas marinated in vinegar and olive oil, feta, and vinagrette. Only annoying thing is that you have to do most of the prep day of (I make the pasta, chickpeas, and onions ahead of time, but it’s better if the veggies are cut fresh) but it’s so good and easy.

    10. Zephy*

      Salads are pretty endlessly flexible. My general salad formula is:
      1. base (bean/grain/pasta/leaves*)
      2. 2-3 fruits or veggies (raw or cooked as appropriate/to your preference, eg bell pepper, carrot, zucchini, sweet potato, beets, orange slices, apple slices, fresh berries, whatever you like)
      3. a protein (animal or plant-based, shredded chicken or bonus beans or tofu or whatever)
      4. a crumbly cheese if desired (e.g. feta, goat cheese, crumbled bleu cheese)
      5. a vinaigrette-type dressing

      *if your base is leaves, either pack the dressing separately or pack your salad “upside down” in your chosen container – sauce, then protein, then heavy veggies, then lighter veggies, cheese if using, and finally leaves. You can shake the container to distribute the ingredients, or dump into a bowl.

      Salads are easy to prepare in batches as well, and then you have 3-5 days of lunches ready to go on Sunday/Wednesday (I do my prepping once a week and my lunches are still good by day 5, YMMV).

    11. DisneyChannelThis*

      Veggie quesadilla? Chips and salsa with it? Reheating microwave can be weird though

      Pita sandwhiches – chickpeas, veggies, sauce. Naf Naf has a good menu if you need to get inspired by options.

      More creative salads might be nice. There’s lots of online stuff about layers and what ingredients to keep separate to not end up with soggy lunch.

      Hard Boiled egg is always a solid protein.

      What are you transporting your soup in? I’ve had rotten luck with soups spilling…

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Glasslock containers are great – I’ve never had a leak! (You do need to use a different cover for microwaving or you risk the lid falling back into place and pressure-sealing.)

      2. Rose is a rose*

        I use the plastic screw-on lids you can get for mason jars. No spills and easy to microwave with the lid loosely on to contain splatter.

      3. HannahS*

        I use snap-lock glass containers. They aren’t necessarily the name brand, but I find the kind that’s a glass bottom with a plastic lid that has a rubber gasket and four “snap” arms is very good. No leaks. I microwave with the lid off, and use a damp piece of paper on top of the bowl to avoid having to clean out the microwave.

    13. Lady Lessa*

      I’ve stocked up on chickpea and lentil soup at Aldi’s and like it a lot. If you were to try to make it yourself, the base is similar to a barbeque but not sweet.

    14. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      America’s Test Kitchens’ vegetarian cookbook has a lot of great recipes that I’ve made for work lunches before, my favorite being their “best ever vegetarian chili” (it’s really good). The New York Times cooking section also has a lot of good vegetarian recipes that I’ve packed for lunch (I recently made the brown butter lentil and sweet potato salad and it was awesome). In the summer, pasta salad with some garlic bread is one of my favs, and in the winter I love a good hearty soup or risotto since they freeze and reheat well. I also agree with the person who recommended having some frozen dinners on hand for days when you forget/can’t/don’t want to pack a lunch for whatever reason.

    15. Not A Manager*

      Ratatouille
      Grilled/sheet pan vegetables rolled in a tortilla with some hummus
      Frittata
      Pasta salad with chopped grilled veggies and kalamata olives

    16. Yes And*

      One of my favorites: store-bought cheese tortellini tossed with spinach and garlic just wilted in olive oil.

      Spanikopita is also good, and easy to make in bulk if your grocery store carries phyllo.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        Does this work ok cold? Or do you reheat in the microwave? I’ve always thought of this type of pasta as needing to be cooked fresh (though maybe yours is a different type to what I’m picturing)

    17. Pentapus*

      i love cooked white beans, chopped avocado, cucumber, tomato, pepper and feta. with olive oil, balsamic.

      otherwise leftovers.

      bad mornings: loaf of bread, cheese, knife and apple

    19. ruthling*

      I make extras of dinners and take them for lunch. Lots of soups and stews work great for this, with rice or bread or crackers or something. If your dinners would make good leftovers, make a lot extra.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        +1. I generally skip bringing in the pastas because I don’t like microwaved pasta, but otherwise I just make large batches on Sunday and Tuesday nights and package leftovers for the other meals.

    20. Nonsense*

      I’m not vegetarian but I try to have a couple meals a week without meat. Roasted red pepper sandwiches/roll ups are one of my favs, with hummus, spinach, red onion, cucumber, and feta. Nut butter and banana sandwiches are pretty good too. My sides are almost always some cheese, crackers, and whatever fruit looked good that week.

      Like others have mentioned, I’ve found that setting aside part of dinner works well too. Most recipes I make are for 2-4 people, so immediately portioning some into lunch containers means I’ve both got lunch and I’m not overeating. Batch cooking on weekends is an option too, but I usually get tired of the same lunch by Thursday.

    22. BlueWolf*

      I made Stanley Tucci’s pasta fagioli soup recently. I used chicken broth, but you can just use vegetable broth instead. It was pretty easy and tasty. It is recommended to keep the pasta separate from the soup for storing, otherwise the pasta will absorb all the liquid. I just added the pasta in when I reheated it.

    23. WoodswomanWrites*

      HannahS, thanks for posting your question. I’m bookmarking all these great suggestions for my own lunches!

    24. Flit*

      I like baked potatoes, which can be topped with whatever you like. I prefer to bring the potato raw and microwave, but you could easily bake a batch ahead of time.

    25. A Pocket Lawyer*

      I’m not vegetarian but for some reason what pops into my mind is some sort of cold soba noodle situation with a soy-peanut dressing and a lot of scallions and crunchy veg like carrots and cucumbers.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        yum. i will be right over!

        Trader Joe used to have a cold noodle salad like that. the peanut dressing was spicy. it’s been gone a long time.

    26. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      My fav veggie meal:
      Maccaroni cheese with either mediteranean veg (grilled mixed pepperss, aubergines, tomatoes) or a side salad of cherry tomatoes, beetroot & tiny pickled onions

      Fav vegan meal:
      Falafel, quinoa, walnuts, red cabbage, samurai sauce or spicy peanut sauce

    27. goddessoftransitory*

      Can you heat your lunch? If so, angel hair pasta in jalepeno pesto sauce is easy to make and assemble, and quite delicious!

    28. sb51*

      Some slight variations on your existing rotation: “curry” can be a lot of things — if you’re doing an indian recipe, what about a thai coconut-milk curry even if it’s the same vegetables? What about tossing in some hardboiled eggs in the curry instead of the chickpeas occasionally? (Or other protein, but I assume that if you liked tofu or tempeh or seitan you’d already have them in the rotation.) Or a garlic-ginger-soy type stir-fry sauce. Bring noodles or flatbread along with a curry or stir-fry instead of rice for variety.

      Other hearty soups: kale and white beans (i.e. kind of like Italian Wedding but no sausage and extra beans/vegetables to make up for it), West African peanut stew, broccoli-cheese soup.

      Further afield: make a lasagna and box it up in daily portions. Ditto enchiladas, and “lazy enchilada pie”, where you make enchilada filling and make or buy sauce and then layer like a lasagna is easier. (Basic recipe: two 15-oz cans beans (whole or refried), 8-16 oz shredded cheese (depending on how cheesy you like it, ~12-16oz enchilada sauce, 2-4 bell peppers, 2-3 large onions, 0-4 jalapenos depending on how much spice you like and how hot the sauce you’re using is, other vegetables as desired (corn, sweet potatoes, broccoli, spinach). Use the larger amounts of peppers/onions if no other vegetables. Sautee the onions and peppers with some garlic and a couple teaspoons of cumin and ground coriander (and chipotle or other hot pepper to taste, and a splash of lime juice (and a splash of tequila if you like cooking with it). The veggies should be slightly over-seasoned when you finish them as they’re going to get mixed into the beans momentarily. Cook any other vegetables to at least mostly-done, either with the onions/peppers or separately depending on vegetable. Mix beans and vegetables and most of the cheese together, saving a little cheese for the top. Layer with sauce and corn tortillas like a lasagna (you can use wheat tortillas too, but they can get a little mushy, I prefer corn), top with a little cheese, bake like a lasagna until bubbly (cover with foil if the top starts to get too golden).

      Mini-calzones (homemade hotpockets, basically), which can contain the traditional ingredients or just about anything (I’ve stuffed leftover vegetable curry into pizza dough, and it was great).

      Most of these freeze pretty well, so if you get tired of them or they go off before you can finish one, put most of it in the freezer. (Cut and freeze in lunch-sized portions, can go straight from freezer to lunchbag.)

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Thanks for the “enchilada lasagna” suggestion! I’ve had a can of enchilada sauce for a long time and for whatever reason haven’t made actual enchiladas. This would be a good way to use that up.

        This reminds me that my mom used to make something I think she called enchilada pie that involved Ritz crackers as a layer. This was a loooong time ago when lots of recipes called for ingredients like this. They definitely got mushy but didn’t disintegrate. I can’t find it in a quick search but now I’m curious. Someone must have scanned recipes from all those women’s magazines she subscribed to.

    29. Yankees fans are awesome*

      My go-tos:

      black beans and rice (I batch-cook the black beans part [veg. recipe] and freeze in individual portions, then make one portion of rice the evening before [because I am OCD about cooking on my stove the same morning I leave for work])

      Veg. chili (and see above)

      Homemade soup

      fresh fruit (I like apples, oranges, grapes, and pears)

      packets of instant oatmeal and small boxes of raisins

      pb & j sandwiches

      cheese sticks

      homemade bean burritos (batch-cooked and frozen for later use)

      linguine and sauteed mushrooms topped with fresh parsley

    30. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Try middle eastern! Turkish lentil balls. Hummus. Baba ganoush. Falafel. Stuffed grape leaves (meatless variety). come summer, Stuffed squash.

    31. Llama Wrangler*

      Repeating a lot of what people have said, but generally a lot of things with beans: bean + grain bowls; bean + veggie stews or curries; stuffed peppers; baked casseroles; bean salads (in the summer I love a raw shredded vegetable, bean, a lot of herbs, dressing, and nice bread on the side).

      Smitten Kitchen, 101Cookbooks, and Meera Sodha are some of my go-tos. A couple of things I keep in mind when I’m planning – if I have to eat quickly, soup and salad can be hard; andthings that take a lot of composing (tacos, or a grain bowl with a separate sauce + pickled topping) are not ideal.

    32. Pretty as a Princess*

      Burrito bowls! Rice or quinoa, with black beans, cheese, corn, peppers, onions (cheat and buy frozen veggies at Trader Joes or somesuch), a little cheese, and some tofu or other protein you enjoy. You can just make up a pot of rice or quinoa one day and assembly line together a couple days worth of lunch in containers.

    33. AnotherLibrarian*

      I love to make a vegetarian lasagna (I use the Cookie and Kate roasted veggie recipe) and I adore it. It reheats really well, so it is one of my go to options. I also make a lot of grain bowls. There’s a mushroom-halloumi one from New York Times that’s fantastic. Also, Budget Bytes has a roasted vegetable sheet pan salad that I made and add chickpeas too. So, a few suggestions.

    34. Bike Walk Barb*

      This Vegan Richa recipe for spicy ramen with gochujang tofu is in standard rotation for me and I make double or triple batches, add in veggies if I feel like it (broccoli, bok choy, carrots, could be anything that sounds good). The ramen does soak up all the sauce so you might make extra on the side and add it in if you freeze portions. I also make the gochujang tofu on its own using the air fryer setting in my oven. Makes a great snack and you can also mix it into salad, grain bowl, or any kind of wrap. I sometimes make Vietnamese banh mi rolls and I have a batch of the carrot/daikon mix so I make sandwiches with the tofu. https://www.veganricha.com/spicy-peanut-butter-ramen/

      Roberto Soup made with vegan Italian sausage freezes great. I always make it with mushrooms, occasionally throw in other veggies especially if I have something that needs to be used up. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/kitchen-notes/the-many-lives-of-roberto-a-soup

    35. Retired now*

      Look up recipes for walnut loaf – it’s a wonderful vegetarian dish. That’s one of the few vegetarian proteins that I like. You can slice it and freeze it and have it available

    36. Nightengale*

      When I was in my pediatrics residency I estimated I was going to pack 12,000 bag meals to eat at work if I worked until I was 80. I work from home 2 days a week now so it isn’t quite that dire but I realized I had to do something before I burned out on hummus and PB sandwiches. I eat largely vegetarian. In winter I try to always have a hot lunch.

      Today I had rice and I crumbled some roasted nori on it and some cubed tofu tossed with soy sauce and sesame seeds. Yesterday’s lunch was the rice and seaweed with pieces of omelet. (New Years Day dinner at home was egg sushi. . . )

      Other favorites

      leftover cheese grits
      oatmeal – I bring it dry mixed with dry milk powder and then add water and microwave. good with applesauce
      leftover stir fry and rice. OK so I really like rice
      noodles with peanut sauce (usually I make one serving spaghetti to eat hot at home and the other half gets the peanut sauce for work)
      pasta salad with whatever vegetables and cheese I have tossed in
      pancakes and jam
      if I wake up early enough to fry an egg, an egg/cheese/English muffin sandwhich. I wrap it up in foil and it stays warm to lunch

    37. cncx*

      I can’t think too much around lunches so I have a sandwich of the week (some kind of nut butter or cheese usually). I buy a lot of different bags of mixed nuts and dried fruit (that is where I get the variety) and then I pack my lunch box with a couple different silicone muffin holders like those bento accessories and I throw in my nuts and dried fruit and pretzel sticks. I also snack on cereal dry (weird habit) and I have a baby Tupperware for that.

    38. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      Fruit, vegetable, or herb frittata: they can be made ahead, and taste good at room temperature.

      Try including apples; potatoes, onions, or both; or leftover roast root vegetables. Or fresh herbs, if you have most of a bunch of herbs left after using some in a different recipe.

    39. KathyG*

      Greek Lentils! They take less than an hour to make, freeze beautifully, and taste way more savoury than you’d expect from such a simple recipe. The bay leaves are NOT optional. I’ll put the link in a separate reply.

    40. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I strongly recommend having protein sources that are easy to grab and go if you don’t have time or forget to pack the night before. My grab and goes of choice are yogurt, cottage cheese, hard boiled eggs (I go ahead and buy them already made for me), and string cheese. Sometimes, I went ahead and crammed 3 days of them, a 5 serving bag of baby carrots, some fruit, and a few protein bars into my lunch bag and left it in the break room so I had lunch for a few days if needed.

    41. Mid*

      I’ve been extra lazy lately, so my lunches have been 1/2 bag of salad mix (the kind with dressing and cheese and other additions in the bag), 1/2 block baked tofu (pre-marinated from the store and then crumpled up into the salad), 1/2 bag of quick rice, and 1/2 can of beans, all mixed together. Add additional sauce/seasoning to taste. I make the whole bag of salad/beans/tofu/rice and then divide it into two containers for lunch. I mix up my salad flavors to keep things slightly interesting.

    43. RedinSC*

      I have a little kitchen at the office, so I bring in pita bread, hummus, sprouts, cucumber, carrots (anything else that would go in a pita) and make it up there for lunch. I warm the pita up in the microwave and then fill it with hummus and veggies. It’s delicious.

      1. Tired*

        frittata /spanish omelette – I make a huge one in a baking dish. A variety of veg, either leftovers chopped or a bag of frozen or a medley of fresh chopped and softened in a pan), herbs and seasoning, pour over beaten eggs, bake in the oven. For more carbs adding chopped potato or cooked rice or pasta is good. Cut into pieces, eat hot or cold, keep swell for a few days.

        Many variations are possible – add cheese or pulses for more protein, make a breakfast version (peppers and onions, vegetarian sausages chopped up, cheese, hash browns or home fries type potatoes if you want carbs in the dish itself).

        Also goes well in a wrap or sandwich.

        White nut loaf (Rose Elliot has an excellent recipe) or lentil and cheese bake make good sandwich fillings or stand alone lunch elements. Home made lentil based pates are easy too…

  11. softcastle*

    Any advice on giving notice to a toxic small business owner?

    I’ve finally received a great offer yesterday for a nice new job and am expecting to receive another one from a second one any day now! Once everything is all squared away and I’ve made my decision, I will need to tell my boss that I’m leaving the company. This in theory should be really easy to justify and explain (she’s selling the company and I don’t want to go through a merger, these new jobs have more remote days, pay, benefits, etc., I want to get back to a corporate atmosphere…)

    However, she is very dramatic and a perpetual victim, prone to externalizing and blaming her situations on others “betraying” and “using” her, and quickly turns on people when she feels they are taking advantage of her “as an empath” (she is not, but, ya know). I’ve only been there 7 months, and I’m afraid she’s going to make my last two weeks miserable or even try to potentially retaliate (I’ve seen her fire multiple people and tell us that she “knows everyone in our city, and will make sure they never get a good job”). Mostly, I’m just super conflict avoidant in general, so the thought of putting in my notice and potentially getting yelled at is making me very anxious indeed.

    Any advice? I do think I owe it to her to do it in person, and she is certainly the influencer darling of our city and I have no doubt she would try to make my life hard if I just ghosted her and didn’t put in the two weeks (as is sometimes advised with toxic jobs).

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You’ll be going into a new job that you’ll already have, right? I know it’s easier said than done, but what she thinks truly does not matter. You can even stand up and walk out if she yells at you. She can’t fire you. If you find yourself getting yelled at, just remember you will be done with her in a very short amount of time.

      Just be prepared not to work those two weeks, whether it’s because she kicks you out or she makes you so miserable you want to leave. Unless you have a contract that specifies otherwise, two weeks is a courtesy, not a law.

    2. Tio*

      You don’t actually owe it to her to do it in person, especially for someone you’ve only been with for 7 months. You may want to do it in person to save some capital, but here’s my question – what do you think she’ll do differently if you did leave early, even if it’s along the lines of “put in your two weeks, she starts abusing you and you say I can’t put up with this and leave”? You do have another job (or two!) lined up, so you don’t need her reference, and a 7 month job will probably not count for anything on a resume (especially since she doesn’t seem like the type to give a good referral in any case). So what does her making your life hard look like functionally?

      Also, don’t tell her where you’re going, and block her on any social preemptively.

      1. Zephy*

        +1 to your last sentence. Do not tell this lady where you’re going, she isn’t entitled to that information.

    4. Zephy*

      You don’t have to justify or explain anything to her. You can just say “I’m leaving and my last day is X.” Send her an email stating the same thing and BCC your personal email address to CYA. If she starts throwing a tantrum about it, you can say “In that case, perhaps it’s best if I just go now,” (and send another email stating that, perhaps as a reply-all to your original resignation email, making sure to re-BCC yourself), and then grab your stuff and bounce, as long as you won’t be ruined by losing two weeks of pay.

    5. Reba*

      Congrats!

      Well, you already know how she will react, no matter what you say or how nicely you phrase it. You can’t control how she acts! Put in your notice with two weeks, but be ready to cut it shorter than that if she is nasty. Seriously, if she yells at you, you can say, “on further thought, I don’t think it’s productive to continue and today will be my last day.”

      There are many, many letters on this site like “my boss is mad that I’m leaving and is heaping work on me/giving me the silent treatment/blackening my name around town.” Remember it is normal to leave jobs! You are not the villain here!

      1. Kes*

        Agreed with this – you can’t control how she reacts to this news, only your own actions. There is no magic way to make her take it okay. You should consider how she is likely to react and plan accordingly. If she’s likely to react badly, plan to give notice in a way that will minimize the impact to you. If she reacts badly and threatens to give you a bad reference, or you know she can’t be relied on as a reference anyway, consider whether it does make sense to give two weeks’ notice or be prepared to cut your notice short if she treats you badly. You could even tell her you’re leaving and then if she gets upset with you, suggest it might be easier to make a clean break for you both now rather than drawing it out (but only do this if you think you actually can make yourself do this and won’t let her push you into whatever she wants).
        Keep in mind that the whole point of leaving, beyond your better job, is that you no longer need to sacrifice yourself to her desires and tantrums. You’re leaving. She won’t stop you from being employed in this city – you already have a new job. Stay professional but keep that light at the end of the tunnel firmly in view and moving towards it and remember that you don’t have to put up with her BS anymore.

      2. Yankees fans are awesome*

        “…it is normal to leave jobs!”
        ____________

        lol that’s the t-shirt I’d be tempted to wear!

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s not personal. She behaves this way with everyone, which means: It’s. Not. Personal.

      If she was a photocopier that made terribly loud noises when it malfunctioned, it might be annoying, but it wouldn’t be frightening. It’s a machine that’s failing – it’s not failing AT you, it’s just failing. Go into this with your brain already wired to consider your soon-to-be-ex-boss as a bad photocopier.

      Also, she may get lots of hits as the influencer darling, but I’m positive that anyone who actually works in your sphere knows that she’s a loon. The C-level execs of your competitors and suppliers do not spend their days on TikTok.

    7. Rick Tq*

      Announce your resignation and see what she does, but don’t grant her more control than being your current boss.

      You call her the ‘influencer darling of our city’ based on what beyond her own claim to fame? Some followers on TikTok or Instagram?

    8. HonorBox*

      First, congratulations!
      Second, and I mean this very respectfully (and as someone who does this, too), the only conflict you’re creating right now is that which is in your head. Don’t give too much thought to how your boss is going to react. Don’t dwell on what might happen. Make a plan, resign in a professional and respectful way, and then whatever happens is going to happen. She might be more understanding, given that she’s selling the business. She also might not. But don’t give it too much additional thought because (I know from experience) you’ll stress yourself out unnecessarily just going through what ‘might’ happen.

      Also, please know that if she yells or treats you poorly, you have recourse. You can choose to shorten your notice, especially because you have a job that you’re going to. She doesn’t have any control over that, so if she lashes out, you can tell her that you’re ending your notice period early if she is disrespectful.

  12. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I was offered a freelancer gig on Friday, December 27th. They were supposed to email me the contract on Monday, December 30th, with a start date of Monday, January 6th. When I didn’t hear from them, I emailed them yesterday for an update, and still haven’t heard back. I get that it’s the holidays but it’s looking like I’m not starting the role next week (if at all). I’m really disappointed, as it’s with someone in my network I trusted. Thoughts on how to navigate this?

    1. Tio*

      Have you called your contract? They might be buried in emails, but a time sensitive thing like this is something you should call about

    2. Pickles*

      Probably the holidays, also lots of illnesses going around. I think you will hear back but it might be next week

    3. WestSideStory*

      Just sit tight. They may not be ready for you to start, so I wouldn’t expect anything unless you do not hear anything by, say, Friday. You already emailed, anything more looks harassing.

      My advice is don’t look too anxious to work or you may wind up causing them to think you are so desperate for freelance work they can abuse you.

      You have good information (they may not be the most organized folks and deadlines appear to be fluid). Rest up and roll with it.

  13. Deflated tire*

    Last week, I posted about my colleague Mary. Here’s an update since then. Update only, no advice really needed right now.

    To recap: Mary is the administrator for a ticketing software at my employer. She’s been in her role for two years, still comes to me for tech support despite me saying I can’t help her, and when I was recently OOO she emailed me and asked who else could help her with troubleshooting (no one, and there’s no reason for her to believe anyone at our employer can be her tech support). She definitely has the resources to figure things out: the software vendor has an online learning center and she can open a support ticket.

    Mary’s grandboss told my boss that he had hired a new employee to help with the technical stuff. When my boss told this to me, I did push back and suggested that we really understand this new hire’s role. I pushed back because the new hire’s title (Data Engineer) and job responsibilities don’t suggest they are going to help Mary with the technical parts of her role, like troubleshooting a software configuration. We had a meet and greet with Mary’s grandboss and the new hire (let’s call her Ann) and it turned out how I expected it to. Ann’s role is mostly concerned with customer data. If there’s any questions/troubleshooting related to the ticketing software, the primary contact is still Mary…Mary who still asks me for tech support after two years…and eve started asking if there were other colleagues who can help her. Ann is still to be cc on correspondence, but IMO that’s so she can be aware of anything that relates to her responsibilities…I don’t think her responsibilities extend to helping Mary figure out what’s wrong with the software.

    I really hope that I opened my manager’s eyes. IDK how long Mary can still persist in her role. I’m trying to be understanding that maybe there’s a mismatch of abilities and role expectations (I don’t think it’s a situation of weaponized incompetence), but I really need my boss and my Product Manager (PM) to support me in pushing back on Mary’s requests for help. I’m going on vacation for a whole week and I’m sending my boss and PM a reminder: if Mary or anyone in her department asks for my help/other Web Developers help with the ticketing software, then please reply that we can’t offer tech support. Any requests for tech support need to be sent to the vendor.

    It’s really wait and see what happens at this point. I’m glad I’ve been reading AAM and the comments because now I know how to articulate the issue and the impact.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Leave your phone and/or laptop. If you have work apps on your phone, block them. If for whatever reason you can’t do that, block Mary specifically. Anything she sends to you gets an autoresponder.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      I remember this one because it reminds me of a few past jobs! I don’t get it. People make such a big deal out of entering tickets. It’s such a mental block I’ll never get. You have a question, you enter a ticket, you go back and check on it out of curiosity, or read the automated emails the system sends you, no? Well, some people mentally freeze writing tickets and take a few days to do it, then you look at the ticket, and it’s one sentence. But to your point, continue pushing back!

  14. BellaStella*

    What is the oddest/weirdest/nicest/roll-your-eyes-est/coolest “leaving” email you have seen? I can share that today I read my boss’ retirement email they sent on 31st Dec. They praised our big boss a lot (who was just removed from all managerial duties in November for the org because they are, frankly, terrible), and did not mention at all the three direct employees who reported to them for the last 5 years. Which, ok whatevs, but jees wtf. Another I saw a couple of years ago called out all the great people the person worked with and was very kind overall, but offered to find jobs for people who wanted to leave so a bit …. odd.

    And I am really looking forward to going back to work next week a lot, because I have a new manager (whom I have worked with about 2 years in this current team on a couple of projects), and am moving to a new team with a known good director, a team that is not dysfunctional like this one was. So yay!

    1. a sheepdog*

      I can’t think of any that stand out but after my leaving announcement someone sent an a reply all and worked me into the Drake meme which was very cute.

    2. Elle Woods*

      A former colleague wrote a farewell email which included a line about enjoying working with some of us and included the line, “you know who you are.” No one missed him at all after he was gone.

    3. DefinitiveAnn*

      Not a job leaving email but an acquaintance put up a post once “Griselda and I have been married for 18 wonderful years. There were also seven additional years.”

    4. TheBunny*

      When I left a company a few years ago, the subject line of the email announcement my boss sent out was “Farewell to Our Esteemed Colleague”.

      It sounded like I died.

    5. Wolf*

      I’ve seen one use the term “If you have any further questions about my projects, please don’t hesitate to not ask me.”

  15. Kate*

    It’s incredibly embarrassing to have to ask this at this point of my life, but here we are.

    I’m a woman in my thirties who’s dealt with debilitating chronic depression, anxiety, and OCD my entire adult life. This, combined with a past as a “gifted” child who naturally aced tests without ever having to actually study means that I just… never developed a real work ethic. I’ve worked since I was 19, but I always end up torching my reputation.

    I’m sick of this, and sick of myself at this point. My question is… how does one develop a work ethic from (basically) scratch when your brain chemistry and learned habits all stand against it?

    1. Just here for the scripts*

      By not trying to do it on your own. If you were my friend and you brought this up, I’d recommend Therapy, medical help (via therapy) and other supports.

      It’s a skills set we all learn over time—there’s no magic bullet. And we all learn it with /from supports. Starting at the things that you feel are getting in your way (ocd anxiety etc) is the right place to start. And those can be reviewed and addressed through medical/therapeutic supports.

      1. Kate*

        Thank you. I haven’t seen my therapist in a few months (because money), but I’ll book a session.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Well first question is, do you have mental health support? Do you feel like those issues are being managed? I feel like it’s gonna be easier to shift mindset if you’re not fighting all your brain gremlins constantly too.

      After that … maybe you could try a pomodoro method where you focus intensely for 25 minutes, then take a break? you can stretch that a bit longer as it becomes easier?

      1. Kate*

        I do. I have a psychiatrist I trust, and finally found meds that seem to work.

        I used the pomodoro when I was a student, I could try it again. Thank you!

        1. Lady Danbury*

          I would recommend finding a therapist/psychologist as well. Psychiatrists are great for the medical issues around mental health, including prescribing meds. Psychologists/therapists are great for the behavioral aspects of mental health, which it sounds like is where you’re currently seeking guidance. Most people I know who have clinically diagnosed mental health conditions have both, as they tend to serve different functions in practice (even though psychiatrists are also trained to address behavioral issues). This obviously may vary in your location.

        2. ThatGirl*

          I’m glad to hear that, and agree that a therapist may also be helpful, especially if you have a specific goal in mind.

        3. maybesocks*

          I’m so glad you have found medication that seems to help. It can take forever, and it is a grueling combination of symptoms and side effects all at once until something works. Most healthcare providers don’t seem to understand.

          I hope the new meds make your concerns easier to cope with.

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      Ooh, that sounds like a tough situation and I’m glad you feel able to ask for help!

      One question: How do you end up torching your reputation? By not doing work?

      Also, this is the sort of thing that a therapist would likely be really helpful for–there’s a lot going on here and having dedicated time and space to sort it out would likely be beneficial.

      1. Kate*

        It was hard asking for help (because it feels like I SHOULD know this by now, you know?), but I’m glad I did! You’re all being so helpful.

        One thing I forgot to mention is that I also have hypersensitivity, which means that I get overwhelmed very easily. I end up torching my reputation because I push through the overwhelm, and keep pushing… until I can’t anymore and burn out. I haven’t found a way to keep a sense of proportion, everything seems major.

        I do have a therapist, but I haven’t seen him in a while. I’ll book a session.

        1. Tea Monk*

          That’s a different issue than wotk ethic. If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t push through. Remember to take breaks. I often have this problem of focusing too much and getting exhausted

        2. Hatchet*

          I’ve had those phases of “I SHOULD know it”…or for me, it was more “fake it till you make it”. But I’ve learned (and had to remind myself) that it’s okay to ask for help, whether it be clarification on something, or suggestions from a boss or colleague on how to get started. You can also ask them if there are other resources that could help you with these types of questions. (I know I hate bothering my bosses when I know they’re super busy. BUT 1) part of their job is to help me when I have questions. And 2) I’d rather get clarification on a task early in the process, rather than be on the wrong path without their help and finish it, only to have to redo the entire thing.)

          When you get overwhelmed, can you get down to what exactly is overwhelming you? Is it the amount of work to do? The not knowing how to get started? The feeling like everything is vitally important to get done? Again, talk to your supervisor or colleagues and get ideas from them.

          You mention being overwhelmed. Without knowing specifics, can you…
          – if it’s too much on your plate, can you talk to your boss about what can be taken off your plate and/or what you should focus on doing first. (Alison has plenty of articles about this “To be able to take on Y, I need to take A off my plate.)

          – for prioritizing on your own, if you aren’t familiar with it already, Google the Eisenhower Matrix – that’s the one that has the Important and Urgent, Important and not Urgent, etc… I use a combo of this and mentally “what’s the most important thing/s I need to get done today?” “What would be nice to get done today, but can be pushed to tomorrow if needed?”

          – Along with this, if you don’t have a good way to plan (daily/weekly planner, bullet journal, post its, online task lists), try a few out and see what works and doesn’t work for you. If it’s a system for you and it’s not working, then try something else.

          – I know others have said it, but break down tasks into smaller, manageable-to-you pieces.
          –Even with this, give yourself time to spread out tasks. Our brains can get tired of looking at spreadsheets, or filing, or doing math problems for too long. If you can, spread those big brain pieces out over the day or over a few days.

          – I’ve found that knowing when my prime focus time is during the workday also helps me a bunch. If I have important tasks, or those requiring a lot of mental focus, my best time is to do them near the start of my day, because after lunch, my brain is ready for the tasks that don’t require as much focus or brainpower. I know others who operate better later in the day.

          – Also, it’s okay to not have tasks fully completed all at once, or to not have them perfectly done. For 90% of my work, I’ve learned that putting forth a solid effort is good enough. (The colors or fonts don’t have to be perfect as long as they are readable; the plan doesn’t have to be polished and finalized in one go – it’s okay to make a draft, try it out, and go back and make edits as needed. In my vernacular, I call these stepping stones.)

          Good luck! You’ve got this!!!

        3. Student*

          As someone with sensory processing sensitivity, as well as mental health conditions, I can identify with the overwhelm and burnout. I dropped out of the workforce entirely after burning through multiple jobs. I’m re-establishing a new career now and I have to constantly remind myself not to be overly invested, to take breaks. It’s really important for me to get away from my desk, even just for a few minutes to eat my snack or walk outside. I also turned off the pop up notifications on Outlook and Teams so it’s less distracting and messages don’t feel as urgent. I check them frequently when I have a good stopping point. But the most helpful thing for me is having a hybrid position so I’m not exposed to the lights and the scents of the office everyday; I get a recovery period.

    4. CherryBlossom*

      As someone who’s dealt with exactly the same thing, the main thing that helped me is to remember that I’m not being graded.

      I know it sounds silly to say, but as someone who flew through education and gained a lot of self-esteem on how easy it was for me to get As, it really helped a lot in the working world. My grade won’t be lowered if I ask questions, or make some small mistakes, or don’t understand something and need extra help, because there is no grade!

      There are times when I truly do think to myself, “I’m not being graded. This doesn’t need to be perfect or pretty, it just needs to get done”. Yes, even well into my mid 30s. My powerpoints are hideous now, and it’s okay.

      Best of luck; I know it’s a hard process, and a lot of it is easier said that done. I’m rooting for you!

      1. Kate*

        It helps to find someone who’s been there! Thank you for the advice. It seems potentially very helpful!

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Baby steps and lots of lists. Similar experience to you. Trying to be 100% amazing work ethic wasn’t a feasible goal. Trying to only take 1 phone break in the first 3 hours of my workday was, and weirdly satisfying to achieve! Many small to do lists (listing steps instead of overall thing) helped me gamify getting stuff done, my brain likes crossing off lists (ie reply james email became research issue, review past data we have, summarize data, draft reply, send).

      If you don’t have an in person job look at things like focusmate where you work on camera for a set time period with someone else as an accountability partner. I find parallel tasking works amazing for me, if someone else is working my brain says oh ok its time to work. Coffee shops, coworking spaces, in person work all work well for this. Even like calling a friend and both washing dishes at the same time.

      Also think about developing work ethic in fun stuff first instead, not work stuff. Like training for a 5k, 10k, half marathon, marathon. Or starting and finishing a crochet project. Or beating a video game. Keeping a plant alive. A multi part recipe. Learning to do a backflip. Something where the reward is worth the work and will encourage you to keep going.

      1. Kate*

        Ooh, focusmate sounds intriguing! Parallel tasking tends to work for me – which is why I spend entirely too much money on coffee shops when I have deadlines.

        I really like the idea of developing work ethic in fun stuff first. I’m currently on vacation, so it’s a good time to try this.

        Thank you!

      2. Antilles*

        +1
        The baby steps is absolutely the way to start. Set a realistic achievable goal, build up a work ethic on that. So to use the “fun stuff” example of running, your long-term goal might be to run a 10k. But if you’ve never been a runner in your life, your first goal might be as simple as “I will commit to running every morning before work”. No distance targets, no time targets, just that you’re going to start by simply building the habit of getting your body moving. Then once you’ve got a solid routine and habit of running every morning, THEN you can start adding targets of how far you want to run, how fast you want to run, etc.

      3. Kes*

        Agreed on breaking things down, making lists of the steps that need to be done and then making yourself do the first step/setting a goal of when you’ll get the next step done by. Keep pushing yourself to get the next step done within a reasonable amount of time (rewarding yourself for achieving the step but also immediately putting a timeline for when you’ll do the next step by), so that you are continuously making some progress. Hopefully with at least some of this or over time you’ll find that doing that one step gets you into it and then you can keep going for a while. But consistently getting yourself started and making some progress (making sure the pace you’re making progress on matches when the work needs to be done) will help make sure you actually do get your work done

    6. MouseMouseMouse*

      Ultra basic question: what makes you happy/satisfied? What gives you dopamine or serotonin?

      I ask because I think the first, most important step to work is to not hate the kind of work you’re doing. You don’t have to love it, but doing something you actively dislike is hard even with an iron-clad work ethic.

      To use myself as an example, I enjoy the feeling of completion, or accomplishment. When I wrote novels, I loved finishing the first draft. But the actual writing part sucked — my work ethic didn’t stand a chance against it. So I turned my back on being an author. Instead, my current office job has several administrative duties that can be quickly and independently done and thus marked as “achieved”, which gives me enough satisfaction to get through the less-pleasant parts of the job like vendor calls and project meetings.

      My colleague is the opposite — she’s happy to talk all day about our subject area and enjoys being the SME, but doing admin tasks is a slog for her; she doesn’t see each task as an achievement, but rather an annoying boulder in her way that she has to clear before she can continue to the next meeting.

      I would also caution against internalizing the mindset that your brain chemistry or habits are inherently wired against work ethic. We’re learning more and more about the various ways in which people differ from each other, which means it’s more generally-accepted that work terminology like “work ethic” or “productivity” cannot be applied uniformly across the human population. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot before you’ve started!

      1. Kate*

        I’ll think about it! I have a general idea, of course, but I’m not sure how to apply it to a job search.

        Thank you for your warning, too. After so many years of this, and actively having to talk myself out of “wow, I’m useless” spirals, it’s easy to feel hopeless. I’ll keep your words in mind.

        1. MouseMouseMouse*

          In terms of applying it to a job search — are you able to look back over your work history and identify periods of time when you felt most content/stable/at equilibrium? Can you identify anything in common?

          Best of luck!!

    7. StressedButOkay*

      As a potentially undiagnosed ADHD girlie, I feel you. I’ve managed through gritted teeth to pull myself through my own brain traps. But what I really recommend, and should do myself: therapy. If you have ADHD, there are coaches out there, too – so, not therapy but day-to-day skills.

    8. Whomst*

      Don’t let other people define work ethic for you. Figure out what you actually want (finishing projects? not procrastinating?) and then figure out a process likely to get you there.

    9. NaoNao*

      I drilled down to the “why” but also used systems and gave myself some grace.

      There’s thousands maybe millions of jokes and memes and videos about how nobody genuinely wants to be at work so you’re not some extremely weird person–“working for the weekend” is 100% a “thing” that’s very normal.

      Leaving that aside:

      I work in an industry that’s under heavy critique right now (for good reason) but I keep refocusing on my immediate users and those affected by my end product. I want to help others, and this is a small way to do so.

      I don’t have to work 100% of the time 8 hours a day every day. I’m salaried. Some days I do work 7-8 hours, others 3-4 and that’s okay. Very occasionally I put in a 9 or 10 hour day. I’m paid for my knowledge and experience, not my presence, so I’m not nickel and dime-ing myself on hours.

      Systems:

      I have a daily schedule and daily/weekly tasks. I found waking up at the same time and working a “shift” did help me focus and get stuff done.

      Every Friday is “admin day” where I write up a weekly recap, go through emails, go through my one-note, and so on. Mondays I write out my priorities and I use a “bullet journal” style note-keeping system through the week.

      I also keep a kudos file at work, it helps the motivation.

      1. Sparky*

        > I work in an industry that’s under heavy critique right now (for good reason)

        AI or health insurance?

    10. Romano Tours*

      Seconding all the therapy recs!

      If we are similar (reading through your post and replies, I think we are!), it’s really not that you have no work ethic. Rather, it sounds like you don’t quite have a steady/sustainable work ethic that can endure and serve you over a long period of time. For me, that came from having unrealistic standards and porous boundaries.

      I will say for a long time I had jobs that sort of followed a boom and bust cycle that kept burnout in check or allowed me to recover (think: school-based roles that were intense but came with long vacations, issue-based political campaigns that disbanded, etc.). That worked suprisingly well until it didn’t (also around my 30s). It’s still a work in progress but adjusting my expectations through therapy and, very boringly/frustratingly, making incremental lifestyle changes sustained over time seems to be the solution.

    11. sb51*

      It’s OK to find a job that works with your brain rather than making your brain work with the job. Maybe right now what you need is a job that provides constant differing stimulation and a clear “what to do next” that is easily accomplished. Like, working a deli counter. (I use that example specifically because getting nostalgic for my teenage job at a deli counter is how I tell I’m burning out a bit; I don’t really want to work that job any more, but the very straightforward tasks, the fact that people generally were really happy with the service I provided them and I was getting a steady stream of earnest “thank yous”, coupled with excellent management/a good atmosphere meant that I liked going to work.)

      Now, granted, finding that job in this economy and having it be one that will cover your bills? Possibly not easy at all. But at least envision it: what kind of work would help you not NEED a “work ethic” yet? Can you get such a job in order to help repair your relationship to work in general, even if it’s not a long-term career? Then once you have gained some confidence and healing, you can start figuring out how to build the kinds of structures that work for your brain into a job in “your field” (if you still want to be in that field). I learned that open-ended projects are just a ticket to burnout; a job with a lot of them is not for me. A job with a handful of them amid more straightforward tasks, maybe, and then I need to build scaffolding for myself so I don’t ignore them in favor of the straightforward tasks. Etc. But give yourself space first.

    12. Georgina Sands*

      The good thing is it’s very doable. I’ve done it, though in my twenties – I have very hyperactive ADHD, so perhaps some of this advice might not be applicable, but maybe some of it will be useful for you. The bad thing is it’s a lot of work.

      My first recommendation would be to start looking at it like a hobby, as it can be genuinely fun and takes a lot of the pressure off.

      A lot of ADHD people have a lot of negative emotions around this sort of stuff and dealing or not dealing with those emotions often prevents us from really engaging rationally with developing systems. This might not be true for you, but perhaps continuing to use systems that don’t work for you for many years could well have had a negative psychological effect on you. Which would be natural and normal if it did, but guilt, shame etc are not very helpful to problem solving, so I certainly found it worth exploring and coming to terms with those feelings first, so I could approach making systems with simple curiosity.

      What I did was totally stop listening to what everyone was telling me to do and had told me to during my life – therapists, influencers, teachers, etc – and I looked solely at whether something worked for *me*. And if it didn’t, then it wasn’t because something was wrong with me, or I was a failure, or if I just tried harder it would work, like people had spent a lot of my childhood telling me, it was just because it didn’t work for me. So I would try something else, or modify that thing, and so on. Basic trial and error.

      Eventually I worked out a system that works for me, and more importantly, I have the confidence that I can work out a solution when I encounter a new challenge, or if my situation changes and my systems don’t work for me any more. I think that it’s that system to develop systems which is more important than any individual technique (although I find many useful!)

      I found this quite difficult to write about because it feels quite personal, so please forgive if I’ve said anything clumsily – none of this may be relevant to you at all, but there’s gotta be other people in the same situation I was in, so I feel like it’s worth sharing!

    13. Chicago Anon*

      Just looking at this thread, you’re doing great at coming back and thanking/interacting with the commenters. This seems like something you could work with! Sure, they’re trying to help you, and not all jobs involve working with people who want to help you (tends to be the other way around), but some sort of do, as in the deli counter example. And validating people’s efforts is definitely a component of many jobs. I guess this means I agree with the commenter who said you need to not hate your work, and to look for something where it feels easy to do some of the core tasks.

    14. I Have RBF*

      This sounds similar to what I had to deal with. When I was in my 20s I had no work ethic. I never learned to do homework, and procrastinated everything. I am ADHD (childhood Dx), unmedicated, and had low level depression. I was a “gifted” kid, which meant I could mostly mask my ADHD dysfunction with being a fast learner… until I hit college and not doing homework meant I couldn’t do the problems fast enough to pass the tests.

      My solution was to get my ego involved. I still don’t do “homework” (after hours work that is unpaid and optional), but I do on-call and weekend stuff that is part of my job. I had to basically get invested in my reputation as a person who could fix things and get them done right. Even if I think that others don’t notice, I tell myself that they do, and I take people’s thanks for fixing their thing as an incentive to keep doing things right and on time.

      Yes, I still procrastinate, and I still have executive function problems, but the “other people are counting on me” is a positive motivation, because it feeds my ego and keeps my imposter syndrome at bay. While it may seem to be “people pleasing”, it’s more a case of feeling that my work has a positive impact for other people, so it actually matters more to be done fast and right.

      Part of what gets me out of bad in the morning is “what will I do today that will make someone else’s life easier/solve someone’s problem?”

      Yes, all of this is a psychological trick for my wacky brain, but it works. (Also, when I started taking daily Vitamin D, my depression receded significantly, but that doesn’t work for everyone. Check with your doctor.)

    15. Zona the Great*

      This is a serious suggestion and not meant to be flippant or dismissive: have you tried or considered micro dosing with psychedelics? I suffer from ADHD, depression, and anxiety. Psilocybin has completely changed the game for me.

    16. AnotherLibrarian*

      Fellow person with a very similar list of challenges (though absolutely not identical.)

      First off: Therapy. Lots of therapy. Medication, etc. You have to be treating the root causes and that’s a lot of work work, but mental health is a chronic medical condition and just like any other chronic medical condition, you can’t ignore it and just “push through.”

      Other things I use: Pomodoro. Love it. Also, Bullet Journaling really helps me. Not the pretty, fancy kind you see on the internet, but the kind described in the book by Ryder Carroll (the Bullet Journal Method). I don’t use the whole method, but I’ve adapted parts that work for me. In-Box Zero techniques. (Email triggers my overwhelm) Anti-Planner is a book for people with ADHD full of strategies to get stuff sone when you don’t want to. I don’t have ADHD, but I use it all the time.

      Lastly, find ways to make it fun for you. I love stickers. My personal planner is full of them. Bright colorful and fun. I look forward to using my tools, because I get to bust out a new set of stickers! (I realize not everyone loves stickers, but finding ways to make things fun does help I think.)

    17. Rosey*

      Some of what you describe could describe me. One thing that helps me is trying to find work that fits me rather than the other way around. For example, I really thrive on any sort of work where a lot of immediate problems need solving and any deadlines are very short. I am not great at holding myself accountable for long-term unstructured work.

      I would also try to be kind to myself, if I were you. It doesn’t sound like you have no work ethic or are lazy. You want to do the work. You just struggle with a certain kind of work, probably more than most.

  16. ThatGirl*

    This week in the Life of a Creative:

    – take a look at a new project, ask for additional info on audience and messaging
    – am told “what you see is what we have”
    – do my best on an initial draft and post for approvers
    – get told it’s all wrong and am provided with a bunch of additional info on audience and messaging
    – beat head against desk

    1. Tio*

      The petty part of me would want to email back and be like “Thank you, this was the info I had requested at the beginning of the project. Is it possible to have this info included at the start of a new project so we don’t have to rework these items in the future?” But that is very subjective to your audience and would not be ok half the time

      1. ThatGirl*

        I actually did reply with something along those lines – aiming for breezy but “thanks for the info, this is the kind of thing that would be helpful to know up front” – the requestor is new and the project manager keeps dropping the ball on asking good questions so I’m a little more annoyed than I might otherwise be.

        1. Kes*

          Yeah, it might be worth even from your side putting together specific questions about some of the information you need and/or when you start the work, come up with the list of assumptions you’re making and share that back so that either they can tell you then if they’re wrong or at least if they later prove wrong you know that you did tell them and did what you could

          1. Tio*

            Having worked in compliance for a long time, I LOVE checklists/questionnaires like this. I had several that I used to hand out for classification and onboarding.

    2. Llellayena*

      And this is why I spent months with a coworker developing a “project handoff” document (sanctioned by management) to ask all the specific questions that makes a project easier…only to be told “oh we’re not using it on this project…or this project…or this project…”

      1. ThatGirl*

        We have a very thorough project brief! The problem is that sometimes either it doesn’t get filled out well in the first place, or it gets filled out at a high level for the overarching project (e.g. launching a new product) but not the individual pieces (flyers, sell sheets, e-mails). Sigh.

  17. Jenny*

    Question for Federal employees—

    What is your gut feelings on return to office this year? I’m not in DC or Maryland (I’m in a field office in the midwest) and have been in the office 1 day per week (there have been a few weeks per year when I’ve gone in more) since April 2022. I’m not classified remote. I’m hoping it is a lot of talk and not a lot of action and we’ll be able to go kind of keep doing what we are doing.

    As an aside, we were 2 days telework prior to COVID and my boss and the person that works for me are both in a different office than I am.

    1. so… how many cats you got?*

      All going to depend on agency, are you remote or telework and if you are a BU or not. If the incoming President decides to void all telework/remote then one of the big federal unions will sue, probably in DC District. By the time it goes through the courts the current POTUS will probably be out of office.

      But right now is really too early to say.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      It depends on your Department/Agency and its deal with its federal unions. If there is a labor contract with the bargaining unit it may include telework or remote work. I understand over half of federal employees are covered by some sort of collective bargaining contract, so there may be one that covers you, but not all contracts include remote work.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Not a Fed but my partner is. We live outside of DC (in very reasonable commuting distance) but he’s full-time remote. It’s too soon to tell but we’re working out plans for a potential commute just in case. We’re basically expecting that he will have to go in most days. In the “extra annoying” column, we recently moved from DC– and a 3-minute walk to a Metro stop– to the suburbs where the logistics are slightly more complicated.

    4. Anon a fed*

      I’m a fed with NIH. My boss anticipates big changes to telework, but we know that we literally don’t have enough office space for our group to go back to in-office 4-5 days/week. We’re guessing mandated 4-6 days per pay period, either at the HHS level or government-wide. It’s a shot in the dark, but preparing for a worse-than-current environment is what it is I guess. Not excited, since my situation currently isn’t monitored in any way and no one cares how many days I’m in or not, since I have no in-office duties and get so much more done at home.

  18. Visually Impaired Guy*

    Alison:
    Thank you for taking the time (when you redid your website) to find the best way to display the font for the letters. It used to be in italics, and is now indented. With the republishing of letters this past month I read some of the previous ones in italics, which I’m capable of doing, but it was a reminder of how much I appreciate that you changed things.

    Thank you for being so thoughtful about accessibility!

  19. Weekend Warrior*

    2025 Suggestion from a Retiree

    At the end of 2025, consider writing yourself a “holiday letter” covering your work year. Gather notes and ideas in your planner during the year, and then in December create a 1-2 pager highlighting a few events and capturing just enough detail to get a sense of the year. A few photos could be good too. Cartoons? Jokes? A brief profile of a great colleague? Yes, it could be cathartic, and fun, to write an anti-cheer letter, just as people do to parody over-the-top personal holiday boasting letters, but write a positive one to yourself as well. That’s the one you will be glad to read again in the future. The only audience is you so make it fun!

    While you’re in the thick of your work life/ career, it may seem that you’ll never forget the highlights and lowlights that make up the days. And maybe some of it you do want to forget! But time will erode all the experiences and when you look back over 30-40 years, you will be surprised by how fast it passed and how much the years blended together. Retirement is great and looking forward to new things is a big part of that. But I wish I had recorded a bit more personalized detail during my working years to better record such a large chunk of my life. Somehow, all those paper and then digital planners dryly noting dates for meetings, deadlines, and reports just don’t lead to a flood of Proustian memories. :) And neither would rereading official annual reviews and project reports, even if I had kept them. What I wish I’d done is write the equivalent of a holiday letter to myself at the end of each year.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You know, it’s not too late for me to do that for myself for 2024, thank you.

    3. Bike Walk Barb*

      Fabulous idea! I go back through my personal journal and do a recap of the year’s highlights, which always includes some work things, but it isn’t this detailed. I’m going to take this to my team as a fun idea and also a great way to think about and celebrate their growth and accomplishments, including barriers overcome.

    4. Weekend Warrior*

      Thinking about how it isn’t too late to write something up about 2024 has got me thinking that it also isn’t too late for me to think back over my career and write up a few personal highlights and memories. Not in the detailed Artist’s Way memoir way – whew! – but just enough to capture what, and who, still stands out. Glad this post is resonating with some!

    5. Peep*

      Great idea — I like the letter to yourself idea. I still struggle with figuring out what I do long term because there’s so much chaos day to day, but I’m trying! Coworker memories is what I’d like to keep track of, especially, so that might be easier. Thanks!

  20. trans at work (uk)*

    Advice on coming out at my new job?

    I have been at my new job for a few weeks. I don’t talk about my identity but I look queer and I think everyone already thinks I’m nonbinary as they all call me they/them (I’ve never said anything about pronouns but I think it’s meant respectfully.) It’s actually normal for all staff at my work to wear the free pronoun pins provided, which I have avoided so far because I would be happier not having to think about it or feel like I’m drawing attention to myself.

    Over Christmas, I finally recieved the dates for my gender clinic appointments and I also chose a new masculine first name. I want to legally change my name in the next year and I would like to start going by my new first name at work + have my email changed if possible. I already dress and act the way I will, but hopefully within the year will start to medically transition also. I prefer he/him pronouns but since I am kind of nonbinary I feel like letting everyone continue to use they/them for me might be best but I don’t know really.

    How should I navigate this at work? I think work will be generally supportive, and though it’s possible I’ll be the first trans employee they definitely have trans students at least. Other than my new name being respected, I don’t really want any fuss or notice or to talk about it. I’m early 20s and this is my first job so I haven’t seen anyone come out at work before either. Any advice appreciated, thank you

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Tell your boss/manager first. Ask them how best to share. They’ll probably offer to give you 5min at the next big group meeting or to send an email. Also, they’ll know the steps for HR stuff and IT email change stuff. Usually HR stuff matches legal name, so paycheck, insurance etc might need to wait until legal name change. IT might be able to do preferred name/nickname sooner.

      If you know whose also a big workplace gossip, telling them and asking them to share the information with the rest of your coworkers also works well.

      I’d consider wearing the he/him pin for a month or so at first, just to help people remember the change.

      Weirdly enough, Tumblr has some good blog posts on coming out stuff.

      1. trans at work (uk)*

        Thank you, good ideas :) I forgot to mention we all have to wear name badges and I know for sure those and our IT stuff don’t have to match our legal name HR uses so that should be doable. Going to my manager first was my thought so glad to hear that’s probably good

    2. Alicia*

      Congratulations!
      I har that you don’t want a lot of fuss but IMO it’s important that you communicate to people what you want them to do. Hoping that they will pick up on it from changing your name tag and email display name is depending quite a lot on people attending to details. Announcing, or having your boss or someone from HR inform people, of your name and pronouns and that you don’t want to have discussions about it – I think that kind of clear communication will actually cut down on the gossip. (But you will know your workplace’s vibe best of course.)

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, my thoughts on this was that you have to decide for sure what you want and tell people openly. If you don’t want to be “they” but are considering letting people do it because it’s easier for them, but secretly don’t like it…just bite the bullet and say “he,” already. That’s what stood out to me on this one.

    3. Elsewise*

      Preface: I’m not trans, but I’m queer and I have a lot of friends who’ve transitioned in the workplace. I’m also based in the US so I’m not sure if there might be some differences.

      I would start with your boss or HR, depending on relationships. Let them know that you’re planning to change your name in the new year and ask them what you’ll need to change it in the systems. You’ll probably need to share a timeline on legal name change for HR purposes, but it sounds like they’ll be fine to use your preferred name in the meantime.

      Talk to your boss about how to share this with the team. I’ve had one boss send out an email for someone changing their name (last name after marriage), but I’ve generally seen it come directly from the person. An email announcement to the whole team usually, in my experience, takes the structure of “love how inclusive this place is, I’m being more authentic, here’s my new name and pronouns, here’s a bit about what to do with external partners if relevant, thanks in advance for the support”.

      Email tends to be the culture at places I’ve worked, but if you’re not in a very email-heavy job, I know people who have announced at a team meeting and people who have just told one coworker at a time. I do know one senior-level person who changed their pronouns in their email signature with no announcement and just waited for people to notice. I wouldn’t necessarily *recommend* that, but if you feel like being a little chaos gremlin, that’s always an option.

      And congrats!

    4. Kes*

      Agreed with the others and since you’re planning to change your name, I would suggest that is a good time to change your pronouns as well since you want to – easier to connect the two new things at one time. It may take your coworkers a bit of time to adjust so there may be initial slip-ups but since you haven’t been there very long, it’s actually probably easier to do it now since their image of you isn’t all that set yet anyway

    5. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’d change your pronouns along with the name – easier to just do a fresh start for both; I think that would stick in people’s heads better! You can be low-key about it, too; you don’t need to provide any details. Just debut the new name tag and pronoun pin, and if you have the option in an email signature or electronic ID, do that too. Then send out an email or mention it at a staff meeting or whatever makes sense. You don’t even have to mention gender stuff – just “Hey everyone, I wanted to let you know that I’ve changed my name! I’ll now be going by ____ and using he/him pronouns.” Bam, done. A place that already has pronoun pins and defaulted to they/them for someone without one sounds like they already know their stuff and it won’t be a big deal.

      Source: am nonbinary and this is how it’s gone for me and a number of coworkers. (:

    6. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Here’s how I went about things:
      – Talked to my boss, let him know I wanted to change my name at work, asked if he had any info about the bureaucratic process (he didn’t)
      – Talked to HR, they connected me to IT to get my digital stuff changed over (email, chat screen name, etc). We agreed on a cutover date
      – Talked to my immediate colleagues one-on-one, the Friday before the IT update. I had a couple of sentences that I opened with and then let each conversation turn into a chat – some of them were very short, some of them were longer, all were friendly.
      – Monday of the IT update, I sent an email to the organization – this was totally optional, but I worked with enough different teams that it seemed like the easiest and politest solution – “Friends, my name is ____ and my pronouns are masculine.” I got a lot of “congratulations” type emails for the rest of the day and then it died off. I was not the first person to come out or change my name at that job, so it wasn’t a big deal.
      – Sent a separate email to my larger, customer-facing team with some info about how I would like them to handle it if a customer used my old name – “If you’re in a friendly conversation and someone uses my old name, please update them: ‘he goes by ____ now’ but if you’re in a contentious situation it’s ok to let it slide’ kind of thing.

      Oh, email signature – I interacted with a lot of customers by email. I added (Please note my new first name) in a line under my name for about 6 months. A couple customers commented but overall it wasn’t a big deal for them.

      Congratulations! Good luck! I hope it all goes swimmingly.

    7. trans at work (uk)*

      Thank you for the advice everyone :) I think I will talk to my manager when we go back to work and I expect it’ll just be a matter of talking to IT to get a new email + namebadge, and I’ll probably just talk to everyone in my small department together (we’re frequently all chatting in the same place) to let them know the new name + pronouns situation. I think for the wider college I will ask if my name change can be noted in the weekly email. Most people at work don’t know me yet anyway so I think I’ll be able to just introduce myself normally with my new name when it comes up. I’m feeling better about it all now.

      One thing I am looking forward to about coming out at work is being visible for the trans students :)

      Thanks again for all the help!

    8. Sparky*

      I think this depends a lot on the specific people at your workplace, but overall when I came out at work people were super understanding. I think people were surprised I didn’t change my name to something more masculine or gender-neutral tbqh (my given name screams “American white girl”). I recommend going straight for your actual preferred pronouns rather than using they/them to try and keep people comfortable. The sort of people who would be genuinely less comfortable with he/him will probably also not be cool with they/them, and well-meaning people will find it easier if you have a simpler, clearer message around what you want pronouns-wise (learned that myself when I tried to be wishy-washy and say any pronouns are fine rather than comitting to something — most cis people are even less familiar with that and get anxious about fucking up when you give them options, I think!)

    9. JSPA*

      Pick a date a little in advance, and let people know that from that date, you’ll be transitioning to the new name and to regularly using he/him pronouns (but that you welcome people using them sooner). That way, nobody feels they’ve been unkind, and you can pair a new nametag with the pronoun tag.

  21. Dr Bunsen Honeydew*

    As part of my professional development goals for 2025, I told my managers that I’d do management training of some kind (for growth, not because of negative feedback). As we all know there’s a lot of crap out there in this field, so I’m looking for recommendations! I’m down for any format – virtual, in person, asynchronous, a book. (I have of course already read the entire AAM archive and book!) Psychology, sociology, or other science/research-based content is a plus.

    1. Kes*

      Some management related books I’ve read and recommend:
      – Radical Candour by Kim Scott
      – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni
      – Turn the Ship Around! by L. David Marquette
      – Difficult Conversations by Bruce Patton, Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen (not exactly directly a management book but this is a management skill as well as a life skill)
      – Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen (again, not exactly a management book – it’s more about receiving feedback – but understanding how feedback can trigger people is still useful as a leader giving feedback as well as for yourself)

      and if you’re a woman:
      – How Women Rise by Marshall Goldsmith and Sally Helgesen

      1. Dr Bunsen Honeydew*

        Thank you for these suggestions! I am indeed a woman, though I’d argue that men should also read books like this.

    2. cactus lady*

      The Stanford School of Business has some great online courses. I took one a couple of years ago and found it really helpful. It was online, asynchronous, and not graded, though they did supply a certificate of completion which my work required. Highly recommend.

        1. cactus lady*

          I took one on creativity in management that’s unfortunately not still offered. It was great! The format is really engaging even though it’s asynchronous.

    3. Bonne chance*

      Management in a Changing World seems to be either the actual or the spiritual sequel to AAM’s Managing to Change the World and I’d recommend it! The Management Center’s trainings have also been helpful for folks at my org.

      1. Dr Bunsen Honeydew*

        I failed to mention that I work at a nonprofit, so this is especially relevant. Thank you!

        1. Bike Walk Barb*

          Ditto on training from The Management Center. I was fortunate enough to go through two rounds in different cohorts when I was a nonprofit ED. Really great, very actionable, lots of tools, and relevant for all kinds of workplaces.

          1. Dr Bunsen Honeydew*

            That’s great to hear! Their trainings look really promising. Which ones did you take?

    4. Bike Walk Barb*

      My team has been reading the book Your Brain at Work and discussing it. Really helpful insights into neuroscience and ways to deal with the things your brain does to make it easier to do what you need to do.

      That started me listening to the podcast from the same group, David Rock’s NeuroLeadership Institute. They put on leadership trainings and I’d definitely take one of those if I could. I’m going to watch for future virtual trainings. I’m currently listening to a podcast episode on how to structure conferences and trainings to be more effective and it’s going to change how I put together the flow and format for anything like that I’m doing in future.

  22. Amber Rose*

    Question for folks in higher risk industries: who takes lead on your worker’s comp and modified work agreements when someone is seriously injured? Is it HR or safety?

    1. Tio*

      I believe most comp claims start with HR – we have a large warehouse network that gets these kinds of claims not uncommonly. Safety I believe goes in and cleans up whatever may have caused it, and the issue will be reported to them, but the comp and accommodations (modified work agreements) would be HR.

    2. E*

      In my last 4 companies (construction), Safety for writing up the initial incident report, HR submits it to OSHA / insurance and handles everything.

    3. HSE Compliance*

      Been in HSE for almost a decade, larger manufacturing, including foundries.

      WC has typically been started by Safety – incident report + entry into the insurance company – and then anything past that has had HR involvement, though we stay involved as well. WC/alternative work has always been a joint effort to ensure that we stay right for the employee, OSHA, employment law, and any union requirements.

      This is going to depend on the size of your company, though.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah, that’s sort of what I thought. I’ve been in safety for a decade but only at a smaller company. I’m now at a place with 300+ and 10 locations, and I’m trying to get a grasp on what’s different because it’s a bigger company and what’s different because these people are a disaster.

        Right now I’m it for worker’s comp. I can’t even leave my desk or work on anything that isn’t injury management, which is a real catch-22 because if I could do other stuff I might be able to help reduce these absurd incident rates. But HR just keeps telling me to do it all.

        1. HSE Compliance*

          I can give you a couple examples.

          1. 50 person company. No onsite HR. HSE did everything onsite, but general decisions for WC/alt work were with Corp HR. (very rare instances, tbh)
          2. 14k person company; my site had 1100. Onsite HSE and HR. I had a person that was in charge of WC reporting to me; this position worked very closely with site HR to set up work duties, do DoL stuff, etc.
          3. Where I’m at now – 1300 person company, 15 locations. Onsite HSE and HR, though all positions cover 2 locations. Onsite HSE & HR cooperate from WC reporting on. Expectation from Corp level (me) is that sites are able to determine their own alt work strategies with guidance from Corp, and HR is heavily involved when it comes to anything regarding employment law.

          I’ve never been at a place where Safety does *all* of it – we don’t have the employment law background to catch all the items right (i.e. FMLA); and often HR doesn’t have all the background on OSHA to make sure everything’s caught there. If you’re safety and you’re spending all your time on WC, you’re fighting a reactive battle and will never get ahead. Been there, and it sucks – internet hugs!!

          I’ve found sometimes that this type of thing is really pushed away by the sites. It sounds like half your battle will be to drive site ownership of some of this, which I’ve had luck with by contextualizing it into the site’s production/productivity and HR’s turnover.

      2. Lady Danbury*

        This is how it works at my company as well. Safety is responsible for any reporting requirements, whether internally or externally. Return to work, modified duties, etc would be both HR and Safety.

  23. AnonIn2025*

    I’ve been at my current job for about 8 months.

    I like my team. They seem to like me (as much as they can as I’m their boss) and things are going well.

    Except for my boss. She’s…inconsistent at best.

    In November I received feedback that I was being too friendly with them. OK. Not feedback I usually get, but fine. So I was much less friendly. I then get feedback that I’m unapproachable.

    I replied that follows a I’ve been intentionally less friendly.

    Her reply? That the unapproachable feedback goes back to before I was too friendly.

    What? I can’t be both.

    My question I’d love advice on:

    How do I stick this out? My job before this was 8 months (a start up who wasn’t truthful about their runway) so I really want to be at this job for more than a year, as the jobs before the 8 month one were 5 and 6 years.

    Do I just do my job and ignore the feedback? She only seems to give it when she’s annoyed about something else… so i should be able to duck it. I’m trying to keep the end game in sight.

    Commentariat, what say you?

    1. MouseMouseMouse*

      Can you ask her to give you concrete examples that support the broader feedback?

      If not, I call BS.

      1. AnonIn2025*

        She never has examples. After the unapproachable one she told me she wanted to set up a time to meet when she was in office (she’s remote but in office once per month). Still waiting. It’s been a month. She’s been here twice since.

        I did ask for feedback in specific on one statement that the team didn’t think I knew how to use all the systems (I definitely do) and when I pushed back on it, I was asked if it could have been from a few months ago when someone resigned.

        Hmmm. Is it possible at 4 months into the job I wasn’t 100% proficient at it? Sure seems possible. And if that was the case why didn’t she mention it???

        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          Don’t wait for her to schedule — take the lead on scheduling yourself. And if she’s hard to pin down (or even if she isn’t), start documenting. When you first got the feedback and what it was. The second batch of feedback where you were both. Approximate times when she said she’d schedule a meeting and didn’t. Times you tried to schedule with her. Etc.

          And if your HR seems at all competent, I’d strongly consider looping them in: lay out that you’ve gotten confusing and contradictory feedback from your manager (and what it is), and that you’ve tried to get her to give you additional guidance on what she wants you to do, and haven’t been able to get any details from her. You’re concerned that you’re going to be given a bad review or possibly fired, without ever having gotten any clear metrics for what she wants from you. It might also be worth mentioning that you’re concerned that she may retaliate for you reaching out to them.

          1. AnonIn2025*

            She is HR.

            I’m not pushing it. Making her mad and deal with me is opposite my desire to do a good enough job to make it a year. And I haven’t received any documentation on performance so I’m pretty safe at least for now. I think.

            She clearly gets mad and then blows things off. Heck on our last 1 on 1 (she keeps about half of them) she told me she didn’t have anything to discuss.

      1. AnonIn2025*

        I have, at least as much as I can as it’s a rough spot for them.

        But when she and I are both on office they do come to me before asking her things, so she can at least see that they are interacting with me.

    3. Goddess47*

      That last part is key… “only when she’s annoyed”

      If the criticism is specifically work related – i.e. you are doing X wrong — then I would listen and see what I can fix.

      If the criticism is about you or your management style — i.e. the too friendly thing — I would nod my head and keep doing what I’m doing… (Later, you can be “Oh! Was that a directive? I need to study that idea/direction more, could you write it up for me so I can work on it…”)

      Bring it back to the work. If you’re in a position to do so, ask “How is that related to completing task/project X?” and see what happens.

      Good luck!

      1. AnonIn2025*

        It’s never work related. And if it is, it’s vague and not actionable.

        And when I push back that I don’t think something is accurate she immediately drops it.

        1. WoodswomanWrites*

          Are you pushing back consistently or only sometimes? Even if she’s being unreasonable and you disagree, perhaps some of the time you can say something innocuous like, “Thanks for the feedback. It’s important to me to be a good leader.” Or some other empty phrase. And avoid looking annoyed. Using her warped lens, this could avoid her perceiving you as confrontational.

          1. AnonIn2025*

            Only sometimes. A lot of the time I just say ok, thank her, and say I appreciate her helping me be a strong leader. That usually shuts her right up.

    4. Kes*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t completely ignore her feedback but I wouldn’t let you derail you either. Consider if there are things you could be doing better, and then keep going.
      Also, if you have long stints previously and the other short one was a startup, which are notoriously not always stable, I wouldn’t worry too much about leaving if you feel this is a bad fit. But it depends how much of a negative dealing with your boss is for you.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Agreed – I would not let this feedback actually change much about your demeanor or work. You’ve tried that and you still got negative feedback, so you know it’s not you. It’s your boss.

      2. AnonIn2025*

        I’ve considered all of it. It’s just too inconsistent to do anything really actionable with unless I turn myself into a pretzel.

        I’m not too stressed about the year thing but it is something I want to achieve.

        I’m not going to stay until I’m miserable, and I am looking for other things, but I’d like to stick at least the year.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would just do your job and ignore her feedback. She sounds really moody and inconsistent.
      Good luck!

  24. Jazz and Manhattans*

    I’m in a conundrum and wondering if others have had success stories – I like my job. I’m good at my job (dare I say very good considering the feedback that I get). If someone asks me to take on something new, I don’t have a problem trying to figure it out. The problem though is two-fold: I’m not going anywhere in this job. It’s a small organization with little growth potential. You can be promoted once and that is about it. So now I want to look for another job, but I have little confidence that I will either find one or that it matches the unicorn that I currently have or, and this is the worse, that I can do the job. I know I can do any job that my current job throws at me, but I know everyone; I know our org. I’m scared that I will get into a new job and not have the safety net that I do at my current job. I’m mid-to-late career and while I am adamant about wanting to continue to progress and learn, I’ve moved jobs before (this one is 5 years in) and I’ve never had this confidence issue before. Anyone else felt like this but made it work?

    1. a sheepdog*

      I felt like this at my last job and I just started looking casually to see what was out there. I had the mindset of I’m happy enough here so if I don’t get something that’s ok but I may as well look. I did end up finding something that looked like it fit my experience and skills and getting it. The position was kind of a lateral move but still entry level for the new company. I was nervous because it was a related but different industry and I felt like I was starting at the bottom again, but I just got a promotion after a year and a half and there’s still way more earning potential down the road and room to grow and learn. I was nervous to leave my job because it was familiar but I’m so glad I did. I also had a feeling that they wouldn’t promote me because I was so good at my job and everyone relied on me too much (in admin, which I’ve told my current employer I want to move away from and they’re all for helping me do that). I’d say go for it, but it’s ok to be picky and wait for the right fit.

    2. Jeneral*

      I haven’t moved jobs in exactly that way but I think I understand what you’re saying. I think it’s smart of you to really think through it.
      My situation is somewhat similar. I was in a unicorn job I loved, but I had to leave after massive leadership turnover. I knew it would be hard to find a similar job at that level and I was right. I’m still in the same field, and at a good employer, but at a lower title and salary. At my last job, I had a ton of responsibility and respect, and very little of that transferred here. People are nice and I get lots of positive feedback, but I no longer have a real path to advancement. It’s just not the same.
      It was hard for me to adjust to that. What’s finally helped is accepting it and looking into other fields, other jobs. Seeing what else is available in my area made me realize I’m actually being paid better than I thought and made me appreciate the amount of PTO I’m getting and other benefits. I’m still planning to leave eventually, but I’m more content in the meantime.
      My advice would be to start job searching. You may decide to stay where you are, or you may find something better.

    3. Kes*

      What makes this job a unicorn? It sounds like you like it because it’s familiar and you’ve gained organizational knowledge, but there’s nothing to say you couldn’t do that at a new job, and in fact you’ve had, and presumably succeeded at, multiple jobs in the past so signs actually point to your ability to do this. Yes, this will take time, and yes, change and unknowns are scary, especially when you’re used to leveraging what you do know, and yes there is some risk to changing jobs, but it sounds like you know what you need to do, you’re just scared to actually do it. Start by looking at what other jobs are out there, and applying to ones you think might be a good fit – this doesn’t require you to commit to actually taking a new job, and by the time you do need to commit what you’re committing to will be a bit less unknown which will hopefully help

      1. Jazz and Manhattans*

        I consider it a unicorn since it has so much of what I like to do and I’ve made it that way. I see something I want to do (and no one else is doing it) and I do it. My schedule is very flexible although we do have a butts in seats new VP so I’m going in a few days a week just to be seen. I really like my boss as she really let’s me just do my job and really trusts me to get things done. Honestly, right now I’m not even working to 40h a week as the workload is low as it comes in ebbs and flows. I’m not seeing that the next flow is coming any time soon so I’m working on doing fun things to me and also getting certs and additional training. With all of that, I am thinking hard at – and why *do* I want to leave? No, there isn’t advancement but the work and pay is good. I may be at the point of thinking I need to leave since I have been here 5ys and that is long for my career (no job hopping but there were layoffs; departments closing etc.). So lots of soul searching happening!

        1. Ronaldo*

          This describes my previous job so much. I was there 4 years, not 5, but had all of the autonomy, respect, trust, and all of the security (or perceived security) that comes along with that. Small organization.

          A year ago I got contacted about something where I would be a smaller fish in a bigger pond. I interviewed and accepted it because of the growth, advancement, and challenge.

          I definitely don’t have time to make room for a training anymore, and I’m not the “go to” person anymore, and I don’t have that feeling of being “irreplaceable”. But I’m much happier because I’m being challenged and exposed to more of the field. My confidence is higher because I have been able to handle a big change, and now it feels like I can do it again one day.

    4. Generic Name*

      I was at my last company for 12 years. I had been getting increasingly unhappy my last few years, but never applied to anything out of fear. I had been at that company and in that industry for so long that I was worried I wouldn’t be able to do anything else. Well, an incident at work made me basically rage apply to jobs, and I got a new role in a few months. I’ve been at my new company for a little over a year now, and I’m apparently kicking ass at it. I got a promotion less than a year in, and I get heaps of praise. I also was worried about moving from a company where I was a trusted known to a new company that didn’t know me or my work. Well, I was very wrong. Apparently word of my work has spread far in my new company, and I have a very good reputation here. My job is not exactly the same as my last job, but it uses the skills I’ve amassed over the years. And I’m really enjoying it! So I know how it feels to have a unicorn job at a company you know. Do I know all of the processes at my new job? No! But it truly is no big deal to ask someone a question or for help. It’s a functional company, so folks are happy to help show a new hire a process. My only regret is not leaving my last dead end job sooner.

      1. Generic Name*

        Oh, and I got a MASSIVE raise when I joined my current company. When I started, my new title was equivalent to my old title, but with my promotion, my title is now a step up from what I had before. And I now manage people whereas my old job managed a thing.

    5. Throwaway Account*

      I got a “unicorn” job in late 2021. In late 2023, my boss left.
      Long story short, I no longer have a “unicorn” job.

      I’m just sharing to remind Jazz and Manhattans (and everyone) that your boss can change, your job can change, other things you love or find comfortable can change. So getting on top of the change before that happens can be the best thing you can do for yourself!

    6. is the math right ?*

      Looking is free, if you have time and bandwidth.
      Just because you look at a position, doesn’t mean you apply.
      Just because you apply, doesn’t mean you have to accept the interview.
      Just because you interview, doesn’t mean you have to accept the offer.
      It may be that you’ll be more at piece knowing that this is really the best situation for you. Or you’ll find a whole field of unicorns.

      That being said, if it’s a small field or you’re using your network. that’s a different thing. But browsing job postings and submitting resumes to ATS typically won’t hurt anything

  25. Drowning faculty*

    I am a STEM faculty member at a SLAC, where my department will be more overloaded than we’ve ever been. The past few years, I’ve struggled to keep up with grading, and I think I’ve built up a weird mental block surrounding it. This one thing is dragging down my evals and therefore my performance reviews. Any tips for slogging through the One. Thing. no one wants to do and still maintaining a healthy work-life balance?

    1. Alicia*

      I wonder if your standard for the level of detailed feedback you intend to give are unrealistically high? If you are subconsciously delaying that task because it’s overwhelming, maybe giving yourself permission to do a “decent” job instead of a “perfect” job will help?
      And, you have rubrics, right? Clear ones? If you don’t, the teaching and learning center at your school can probably help you design them. Or improve them, if you have them but are finding it hard to place individual assignments in the rubric.
      Good luck!

      1. Alicia*

        One more idea – if you structure the assignments so that feedback is formative, you may feel more motivated (since it is helping students in a more tangible way, rather than just a paperwork task to check off).

      2. Maestra*

        Yes, rubrics! They do so much of the feedback work for you. I’ve had students tell other teachers that I am really good at giving feedback and 99% of that is just from having detailed rubrics that acknowledge the work that they’ve done. I don’t write very many comments on their work beyond that. I am not a big believer in using AI to do my job for me, but I do find that one thing they are really good at is making rubrics, so you don’t even have to do that work yourself.

        If you’re grading more problem solving stuff, that might not be as easy, but you could still have standard feedback ready to go to copy and paste in some way, maybe?

        1. Drowning faculty*

          I haven’t really considered using rubrics for the problem-based work, but I do have them for labs/lab reports. I’m not fully satisfied with them and I know for a fact that most of my students ignore them, but rubric or no, checking for accuracy is one of the more time-consuming things I need to do when grading. Especially when they’re writing code.

          1. Derivative Poster*

            Could you use unit tests to automate (or partially automate) evaluation of their code?

          2. Tulip*

            Hi, Drowning Faculty. I teach English at a community college, so a different discipline and type of institution, but similarly crushing grading load. One suggestion I haven’t seen yet in the comments is to reach out to colleagues at similar institutions (in my case, other English faculty at CCs in the state) to ask what they do to deal with the grading load. I’ve reached out with a brief email before, and I’ve received helpful ideas from those colleagues.

            In a similar vein, are there regional or state educational organizations/conferences for your area? I’ve found excellent ideas for tweaking rubrics from these orgs.

            A final thought: can the students grade their own code? (It would be a formative assessment, and the final summative assessment could be automated; that way, you’d only need to do the heavy lifting of setting up online assignments for the summative assessments.)

            Even if none of these ideas are useable, thanks for reflecting on your teaching/assessment practices and trying to do the best you can.

    2. In the middle*

      Not a 1 to 1 example but-one year I taught half the school (about 300 students in 12 classes) and was expected to enter at least one grade for every single student weekly. At first I tried to do preformance tasks to really show that the students understood the material (which I did not care about and had no knowledge in as they randomly decided I-the librarian-had to teach a computer course with no curriculum) like writing skits and other project based stuff. The amount of grading was insane. I ended up just using google sheets quiz feature and having it grade for me. It wasn’t worth it. Good enough is good enough. Farm out what doesn’t REALLY matter to automoated grading.

    3. Goddess47*

      What “in the middle” said… if your school has an online course management system, or your textbook has an online back end, use it for the tedious “show me you read the textbook” and/or “basic homework” grading. If you have an even semi-robust test bank, set it up for 2 or 3 attempts (I found unlimited unwise), and let the system do the automatic grading.

      For things that need hand grading/response, set up a rubric you can use so you can tick boxes 98% of the time. (And, sorry, if you can’t set up a grading rubric, then how are you doing your grading? I used to do instructional support and groaned when faculty would tell me, “well, it looks like a B+”)

      And get your instructional support people to help you. That’s their job. They’d love to dig into your course and help you sort out what you can streamline, what you should pitch, and what you should keep. It will be painful and feel formulaic. But by the end of the second time you use it all, you’ll be glad you did it.

      Good luck!

      1. Drowning faculty*

        We don’t have much instructional support left, and unfortunately they’re also drowning with helping students directly. So we’re on our own. I think part of it is just approaching burn out as I’m teaching more classes than aver, to more students than ever, with more extraneous duties than ever.

    4. Jeneral*

      My experience is with grading writing, but this might help: For the feedback on assignments, switch as much as you can to whole-class verbal feedback. Identify a few main themes in what students are missing/doing wrong as a whole. Instead of writing out that feedback to everyone, project /show the examples (anonymized) in class and discuss them. At least for K-12 students, this is much more effective anyway for students’ learning, because the students will take in much more through the discussion than they would from reading through your comments on their own.

    5. Derivative Poster*

      This may not work depending on your classes, but could you hire students who have already taken the class to help with grading? I got a STEM degree at a state university and worked as an undergrad TA. In practice, this meant being available for an hour or two each week to help with homework, plus grading. We got paid ~$10/hour, but someone might be willing to do it on a volunteer basis because it would look good on grad school applications.

      1. Drowning faculty*

        They’ve slashed our TA budget, or I would. I know I can’t get my students to do it for free. I’m struggling just to get in-class TAs right now, so I may not even have those for the lower-level classes.

    6. Frieda*

      I’m personally reducing the amount of grading I’m doing (handwritten exams not papers, so I don’t have to mess with AI-generated plagarism which was demoralizing and took a huge amount of my time) and am staggering assignments between courses so I can hopefully avoid getting too overwhelmed.

      You might also consider things that grade themselves, like quizzes on your learning platform (a good multiple choice assessment is still a good assessment!) If you can give those in class you’re there for any questions and can construct an environment that works for your couse (open book, or not, for example.)

      1. Drowning faculty*

        My material is heavily mathematical, and without requiring the students to pay extra for outside materials (Mastering, etc.) I’d be putting the problems in our LMS myself, which I definitely have no time for. I have a few multiple choice assessments, and would love to have more, but it takes me about 3 times as long to develop a good one of those. I need to really take a closer look at those during the summer.

        1. Coffee*

          ah, I see you say your math based. I have put a bunch of my physics problems on the LMS. doing anumerical answers is time consuming but it really has saved me in the long run

          1. Drowning faculty*

            I’m working on it slowly. But I can’t get it all in there before the start of next semester.

            1. Coffee*

              i hear ya. there’s so little time to get ahead and almost no support. if I hear our Administration talking one more time about some Grand idea that the faculty have to implement with no support or reduction in overall course load…

        2. Chem prof*

          I know you said Mastering is too much for your students, but it really has saved me with grading. It gives tiered question hints, feedback for their wrong answers and randomized numbers in the problem so no two students get the same answer which makes cheating trickier and allows you to show them how to work through it without actually doing it for them. You can put homework, quizzes, tests, whatever you want on there and, unless you add an essay question, it will fully grade it for you.

          As far as lab reports, I have moved to having that be a group project and only two a semester because they were the literal bane of my existence. That, coupled with a detailed rubric, has made it bearable, though I still hate grading them with the heat of a thousand suns.

    7. Grading*

      Isn’t this what TAs are for? Or get a work study person you think can handle it if you can’t use TAs.

      1. maybesocks*

        At a small liberal arts college, slac, there are no graduate students. All office hours and grading are done by professors. This is supposed to be a plus for the students.

      2. Drowning faculty*

        If I had TAs, that would be amazing. But what maybesocks below says is correct; our TA budget is lacking, we have no graduate students, and our top undergrads are already too overcommitted to be TAs.

    8. Coffee*

      I’ve cut back on the number of assignments ( by focusing on the ones that really matter), a good amount of time editing my rubrics so that there are really usable, and whenever possible reduce the number of things that require my attention: for example all of my quizzes are done on the student’s own time in our learning management system and I no longer have short answer questions on quizzes ( because they were open note they were plagiarizing them anyway)

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      SLAC — Small liberal arts college?
      I can’t not read it as Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.

      1. Tiny Clay Insects*

        omg thank you for that! All I could think of was the accelerator, even though I knew it was wrong.

    10. LMS manager*

      Ex-stats prof here. I leaned on auto-grading homework packages and gave generous points and re-dos to encourage students to use them. I also did semester-long applied projects rather than a final exam, with multiple deliverables of equal value, so that the final deliverable was just one piece of the total grade (and became easy to grade at the time of the semester when I had the least energy).

      To ensure that students worked on the project in a timely manner, lab time was dedicated to hand’s on learning together, and then it was project time. I walked around and answered questions.

  26. hypoglycemic rage*

    Hi! I’m currently working as a law office clerk but am looking to transition into a legal assistant role where I can leverage more of my MLIS skills, particularly in research and project management. If anyone has suggestions on skills I should highlight, I’d appreciate the input.

    My current boss can be a bit challenging and doesn’t seem to trust me with even basic tasks. For example, she checked a carafe of hot water I filled to ensure it was done correctly before an event. Moving into a legal assistant role within my current firm isn’t an option, so I’m carefully exploring new opportunities while trying to keep my current job pleasant. I’m conscious of salary considerations, and I want to ensure a smooth transition. This process may take some time, and I might stay at my job for a while longer.

    During my recent performance review, my boss’s boss mentioned I could work on being more independent. They said my boss should be able to give me a task and trust that I’ll complete it without constant supervision. I do my best to stay on top of everything, but since I’m the only clerk at the moment (we’re supposed to have two, but my co-clerk recently left), some smaller tasks, like updating inventory when I take a pen or stocking coffee, occasionally slip through the cracks.

    For example, my boss asked me to update the office phone list by 12/30, but then sent me a reminder that same morning, asking me to finish it before lunch. While I wouldn’t have minded a reminder later (the next day), the timing felt unnecessary.

    I really try to handle tasks independently, but I’m unsure how to improve this skill. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    TL;DR: My boss’s boss wants me to be more independent, but my boss doesn’t seem to trust me. I’m managing tasks alone, which can cause some things to slip through the cracks.

    1. Goddess47*

      Document, document, document. Since you have two different levels of bosses telling you different things, you need evidence. (Ok, it’s a law firm, I had to use that word.)

      Since your immediate boss seems to thrive on micromanagement, get them to do some of the documentation for you. Do you have a file system where you can share documents? Create a daily to-do list and share it. But anything they add to the list will be tagged with their username, so you can show who added anything to the list. “You added ten things to the list, can you prioritize them for me?”

      The list alone should be helpful, if you already aren’t a list person. Fewer things should slip through the cracks.

      And document what the missing person would have done. “Ordering pens was a task Gwen did before she left and I didn’t realize that even needed to be done. I have followed up and ordered pens.”)

      Good luck!

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        I do love to-do lists! And I should def be documenting stuff ,because boss also changes what she says too often….

        but basically, anything the old person does, I now do. so it’s a lot more juggling of tasks – and getting interrupted. bc I might be updating the spreadsheet for inventory, but the doorbell will ring with a delivery, which means I also have to drop that off and note it on the deliveries spreadsheet. but I might also have to scan it before dropping it off…. there are so many spreadsheets…..

      2. Kes*

        I don’t know if they actually are different though – both sides suggest that boss currently doesn’t trust OP to do work independently. This could just be that boss is insecure in delegating, or that they don’t feel they can trust OP because things have slipped through the cracks at times (or even both). We can’t really know which this is (and boss’s boss may or may not even know either, or may just be going on what boss has told them).
        I do think keeping a list of what you’re working on may be good both for you, so that things don’t get lost, and so that you can keep your boss informed of major things, or if certain work is going to be delayed, etc

        1. hypoglycemic rage*

          grandboss said that she’s observed this as something that’s happening with me. I’m not saying there’s no truth to this, because there is. but I don’t think this is something that came from my boss herself.

          but I am the way that I am (or act the way that I act) largely because of my boss and how she acts. so I’m wondering if she doesn’t realize how boss acts, since their relationship is obviously different.

          hopefully this comment makes sense.

          1. Kay*

            Are you saying you miss things because your boss micromanages you?

            Your grandboss probably expects your boss to micromanage you if you are missing things, so I don’t think focusing on your boss/grandboss relationship is productive. Finding a way, and I agree lists are probably an excellent way to do this, to make sure you don’t miss things should be your focus, even more so because this is hugely important in the legal world.

            It may be worth moving to a different firm but in your same position so you can move up there. I hesitate to say this since law doesn’t lend itself to easy to work for bosses – and if you are saying you are struggling due to your boss’s style that might be worth considering for your future success. If this has to do with your current workload being too high then this is a whole different situation where you need to be able to tell your boss whether your workload is, or is not, manageable.

            1. So outta the firm*

              Agree with Kay; bosses at law firms are difficult to work for. In the past I worked for attorneys and it was not unusual to have two attorneys have grammar battles on a document I was responsible to edit, rearrange classrooms and then rearrange them again, order meals instead of admin me ordering them (but I had to pick them up!), etc. I think its the nature of the work, and its competitiveness – an LSAT score can limit a law student’s choice of schools! I didn’t work in Big Law, so it might be different there, but it might be worth reflecting whether that’s the right field for you, or if you could apply your skills somewhere else.

    2. Mid*

      You have an MLIS already, correct? You could skip legal assistant (I’ve found most postings to be very entry level and not great pay—not that you can’t move up the payscale and seniority in those roles, but it’s hard to be hired beyond entry/very junior level) and go into legal records and research, which typically pays more, and would appreciate your MLIS. If your goal is research and project management, legal assistant is not really the work you want to be doing. A lot of LA work is more replacing legal secretaries and junior paralegal work, doing more of the admin side of work so the attorneys can focus on billable work.

      I’d look at job postings for top 40 firms (more likely to have large internal research departments and therefore job postings) and companies like Thompson Reuters and see what their commonly highlighted job requirements are for roles that interest you. Conflicts, records, research, document management, EDiscovery, all those might be more aligned with what you’re looking for (though roles in all those areas vary widely, of course.)

  27. BonjourHi*

    Are there any reader who attended a coding bootcamp during the past 5 years? What are your outcomes?

    I spoke to some graduates who went to a now-defunct coding bootcamp. They thought the education was a ticket to get out of their low-paid or dead end jobs, but the tech layoffs coincide with their graduation. Now they are thousands of dollars out but no entry-level tech jobs in sight. They have been angry at the bootcamp that continued to admit students despite the trouble to find jobs for their graduates.

    1. VoPo*

      I can’t speak as a graduate, but I did used to work for a recruiting firm that specialized in filling analytics/data science roles. We had a lot of candidates coming to us from bootcamps, and they were very very hard to place. Companies were skeptical of bootcamp rigor and preparation for an actual job in the space. This was before the tech layoffs. I don’t know the landscape now as I’m in a very different industry, but back then, we would tell people considering bootcamps that it usually wasn’t worth the money.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I remember being desperate for a job and a boot camp approaching me back in 2020. They sounded good, 95% employment rate of grads, good courses, etc but digging into them made me unsure. I noticed a lot of the grads from them worked for them in some form (inflating that employment rate I’m sure). And you had to pay your own lodging in Boston ($$$$) and moving to Boston downtown without having a guaranteed job in Boston seemed too risky for me (breaking lease, moving costs, new lease for a 3month camp that might end up not being a Boston job). It seemed like an unpaid internship with a lot of extra steps honestly. The partnered companies were very desirable though!

      1. Rainy*

        I have a friend from grad school who did a coding bootcamp after her humanities PhD, and while she did learn what she was there to learn, I think it was more because of her own efforts and the way our academic discipline taught us to learn, rather than some inherent virtue of the bootcamp. She had chosen it because of their claim of a 98% placement rate, and when she finished and couldn’t find a job, they hired her back to do some web design to keep those placement stats up, as indeed, she discovered, they did with MANY of their former participants. She has a dev career now, but it took her something like a year and a half to break in, and I don’t think the bootcamp was worth what she paid, which iirc was something like $14k.

        My experience in the years since with people who went through those bootcamps has been pretty similar. I think the only person I know who had a satisfactory experience with a bootcamp did a UX/UI bootcamp about 8 1/2 years ago, in the first cohort of that particular organization, and her employer paid for it. Everyone else seems to wind up feeling that they at best wasted their money on a nonsense credential and at worse were outright scammed.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I have a couple of former colleagues who did a program that was specifically designed to transition people from academic (STEM) jobs, which was quite effective. The key was that the participants had high level skills, and were looking to fill in a few gaps for tools that are used more in industry that academic research, to polish a portfolio, and learn how to interview well outside of academia.

    3. DataWonk*

      I attended a bootcamp recently, but I am mid career and already have a 4 yr degree and a couple of professional certifications AND was paid for by my employer.

      Bootcamps came out of an industry need 15 years ago for coders. Nowadays, that demand isn’t there. Buyer beware like anything else, it’s not on the bootcamp (or college) to make sure there are jobs available.

    4. TX_Trucker*

      I live near a City that received a federal grant to provide free tuition to attend various boot camps (mostly coding and/or nursing). No personal experience, but I have read the coverage in the local newspapers. For folks who were making minimum wage, it was like winning the lottery. These folks promptly got jobs that paid much more than they were making and they were ecstatic. But for folks who were in low-paid jobs (but already above the minimum) the results were not as good. Most were able to find jobs in the tech sector, but the wages were similar to what they were already earning in different industries.

    5. Jeneral*

      If I could ask a follow up question to people in tech– how would you advise people enter the field/get entry level jobs in tech instead?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I would advise you to choose another field to pursue and avoid Tech until it grows up.

      2. Decidedly Me*

        I know several people that entered tech via a boot camp path. I know many more that entered via a degree path.

        Outside of those (or possibly in combination with) – start in an adjacent role, learn on the job, and move over and up. I know quite a few people that worked in tech support (or even straight customer service first) and have moved into more technical roles over time.

      3. DisneyChannelThis*

        Honestly just keep applying. It took a couple months were I ended up postdoc-ing as a temp position (boy was that awful, got everyone’s least favorite tasks), but then I got an interview for a dream company and it went well and I ended up accepting an offer from them to move cross country.

        For new to workplace and don’t have relevant skills we ask different questions. One of which is have you ever modded a video game, do you know how to alter a save game file to do random stuff. It’s an easy metric for do they have the ability to learn the type of skills we need, and do they have the curiosity that leads people to do well. So not even “real” coding experience! Other ways you can show job skills without previous experience include having a github with well annotated code projects on it, shows you understand git and can install basic programs.

        Recent new students and applicants seem to lack PC/Mac/Linux experience, they aren’t comfortable using folders, they’ve never used a Readme file before, they don’t know how to troubleshoot (guy got stuck when his file was zipped, didnt know that as a concept weirdly enough). They seem to mainly have used tablet type functionality (smartphones, ipads etc) where you just tap the one screen until you see your icon. We’re having trouble screening for that, it’s not something you write on a resume (can use a start menu and untar or unzip a folder).

        1. Jinni*

          Wow? I’m not a tech person but have modded many a game. My son and I do it a lot. Especially for The Sims and Minecraft.

          My professor friends predicted this a decade ago. People were conflating phone use with tech savvy.

      4. DataWonk*

        I would advise another field, and doing tech-adjacent work there if you truly want to learn. Coding is a small piece of the job, you need to know what problems to solve.

        I started in biology (at the bench), and through that I learned python and SQL to aggregate data from my own experiments, and then more and more experiments. I now do data engineering in biotech. Entry level is hard here as you need to know what biology problems to solve, too.

      5. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I entered tech through a tier 1 Technical Support role at a SaaS company. You still need to learn how to code (book, website, online course, meetup group…), but my tier 2/3 colleagues with appropriate skills had no trouble moving to Engineering roles.

      7. fhqwhgads*

        Get a tech job in a not-tech industry. Learn while you’re there. Get good enough til you’re bored. Then switch to tech tech jobs.

      8. is the math right ?*

        Why tech specifically ? Is it for the $$ ? WFH flexibility ? Everyone says it’s good so you want to try it ?

        Do you like computers / are comfortable with coding (not just Excel and PPT, but actually working through errors, etc) ? If not, there are TONs of free online tutorials, courses. Pick up a language – python is popular and has tons of resources and do something (anything) with it start to end. If you hate it, maybe you don’t actually want tech, but having the skill can only help.

        If you love it, then maybe think about a tech role. Tech companies are one option, but there are many tech roles in non-tech organizations. What is your current role / industry ? Most orgs have networks that need a sysadmin, databases that need managing, processes that could benefit from automation, etc. Maybe your current role would allow you to branch out that way, or you could reach out to the technical folks in your org to see if they have openings.

      9. Ron McDon*

        My son (in the UK, not US), got an apprenticeship at a tech company about 6 years ago. He completed it successfully, stayed with that company for another couple of years, and is now working as a software engineer for a different company.

        He’d had a friend who did a boot camp, and was quite keen to do the same; he’d seen his friend get helped to find a (very highly paid) job by the boot camp company, which encouraged him! In the end, I think he felt the outlay of £4,000 (iirc) for the bootcamp was too risky for him to commit to, and he was really happy he went the apprenticeship route instead; the company he worked for recruited apprentices at lots of levels from school leaver through to post-graduate.

        He’s been consistently promoted into higher level roles since completing his apprenticeship, so his is a real success story, but I feel he is also very suited to software engineering- he’s got a very analytical brain.

        I’m a huge fan of apprenticeships, and wish the UK government and schools promoted them more, instead of trying to increase the numbers going to university, which is not the best route for everyone.

    6. OneInTech*

      I have not attended a bootcamp, but I do work in the industry. Overall companies are skeptical of hiring people from bootcamps because it’s not as solid a foundation, so they both are more likely to lack important foundational knowledge and it’s much easier for people to skate through a short bootcamp than a full degree. That’s not to say there aren’t good developers who have come from bootcamps, but it’s not as reliable or trusted as a source of coders. Additionally the quality of bootcamps is very variable I believe.

      They were successful for a while because the demand for developers was so great a few years ago that standards for hiring were much lower. Since then there have been a ton of layoffs and the supply is much greater than the demand, so companies have raised hiring bars significantly (and lowered salaries). I think there also continues to be more people trying to enter the field than there are entry level jobs (plus all the people from the past couple years who couldn’t enter the field then).

      If you do want to get in, I would recommend getting an actual degree, preferably one that has co-op terms or internships built in so that you can get some actual experience during the degree to give you a foot up (and that may hire you back after you graduate, if you’re fortunate). Otherwise (and potentially even with that) you’ll need a strong resume, portfolio (github and/or your own website), leetcode skills and general interview skills as well as technical. But even with all of the above bootcampers would probably find it harder at present to get interviews because they may get filtered out before then

    7. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’ve never been to a bootcamp, but as a programmer, entry-level is just a toxic nightmare these days. I’m coming up on 25 years out of college and 30 out of high school, and I’m not qualified for half the entry-level jobs out there–5 years of Ruby, 5 years of C#, 5 years of Rust, 5 years of ASP, 5 years of SQL… And you’ll want to guess the next few flavors of the month lest your entry-level job also be a dead-end career. Not to mention we’re under similar pressure to other composition-based careers (e.g. ChatGPT can write buggy, bad code for free).

      Everything is a specific employer’s legacy stack and the expectation is that you bring their exact experience cocktail to the job, usually because there are zero resources available to teach those experiences if you lack them. The idea of transferable coding fundamentals has been backsliding into fantasy.

      If I could survive financially starting over in a new career and get out of programming, I would do it tomorrow.

    8. Qwerty*

      I’m a volunteer with a local bootcamp and have worked with a lot of bootcamp grads in the last few years. Some of the best of the engineers I know are either self taught or went through a bootcamp BUT I would call them the exception – a large portion of the bootcamp grads I know are way behind. (the following data is based on people trying to get tech jobs – its a bit different for people trying to integrate coding in their current field)

      A 3 month coding bootcamp is basically an abbreviated re-skilling program. It is not a substitute for a college degree, nor was it designed to be.

      The people who have done really well were doing a mid-life pivot and previously had developed strong skills in problem solving and communication, plus they knew how to learn on the job. So while they had less technical skills than the average college grad it was balanced out by all their other skills and they could catch up.

      The people in the medium well category usually had partial schooling in a tech related field but dropped out and kept trying to learn on their own before using the bootcamp to finish up their education. They’d graduate with the tech skills of a college grad from a lower tier school so they’d integrate well into an entry level job. As long as they were able to stay in learning mode and keep up their motivation, they did well once they found a job with good mentoring (not always the first job out of school)

      Unfortunately, a lot of bootcamps advertised themselves as an easy replacement for a degree that pipelines you into a cushy job, so a lot of people got sucked in who weren’t ready for the years of work they’d have to put in. When enrollment decreased, so did the acceptance criteria, with some people with very little problem solving skills getting accepted and saddled with a large bill. The market got flooded with people who knew how to code a couple things and told they were “engineers” but couldn’t figure anything out on their own. The education provided by a bootcamp skips the foundation in favor of trying to get the grad to pass an interview. I’ve interacted with many bootcamp grads with 3-5 years professional experience who were still very junior compared to a college grad from a good program (which usually includes 2-3 internships).

      My city is flooded with bootcamp grads because we have multiple bootcamps here so every three months there’s over a hundred new devs searching for jobs that don’t exist. It isn’t just the students you are friends with who are angry about the admissions – I know some former bootcamp teachers who are also very upset with the bootcamp industry.

  28. Alicia*

    So I am looking for a new job, and getting interviews :) but – I am kind of terrified. My current job is very stable, not dependent on grant funding.
    I keep seeing newspaper stories about people getting sick or having an accident and suddenly they lose their job and become homeless.
    But the idea of staying at a job I don’t like anymore because I’m afraid to take a risk makes me feel powerless and cowardly.
    Any thoughts?

    1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

      Please do not obsess over anything you read in the news.

      The great thing about looking for a better job while you still have one is that you hold the power and you can choose where you want to apply. I would recommend simply going with your gut feelings about each company you interview with, whether they’re good or bad.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        THIS *100000!!

        Looking for a new job does not mean you’re going to take just any job that comes along. You’re going to interview them as much as they’re going to interview you. You do not have to do anything you don’t want to do.
        Good luck!

    2. MouseMouseMouse*

      There are many, many ways to end up homeless. I assure you that taking a new job is one of the least likely!

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I think there are three things to do here:

      1- Stop reading newspaper stories about people suddenly losing their jobs and homes. Yes, it does happen to some people but there is an overwhelming negative bias in the news in general (“John and Jane Doe are both still gainfully employed and paid their rent on time for the 40th month in a row” doesn’t make the news). You might feel less terrified if you read fewer bad-news stories.

      2 – Are you in a place where you can beef up your savings/lower your expenses? There are things outside your control (getting sick, getting in an accident) and there are things inside your control (what you spend your money on, how much your save, etc.). Taking action on things inside your control will feel better than worrying without any action.

      3 – Related to point 2, your job search is in your control! If leaving your current stable job for a grant-funded job feels too risky for you, ask at interviews how the position in funded and turn down grant-funded jobs. Your job search might take a bit longer, but you won’t be staying in your current job because you’re “powerless and cowardly.” You’ll be choosing to spend more time looking for a job that is a good match for you.

      1. Kes*

        Agreed with all of the above. Keep in mind there are backup plans for this kind of thing (see: accidental disability coverage, for example) and you can also build your own, including having an emergency fund (which is something everyone should have if possible), so that you know you have your own safety net and backup plan even if something should happen, as well as assessing what kind of risk you are comfortable taking in terms of stability of a new job, which doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t look for a new job at all

    4. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      There is a reason you are looking for a new job. Go with the flow, do your best on your interviews, and if it feels right — make the jump.

      1. I’ll Take My Talents Elsewhere*

        You can be in a very stable field/position, and still get blindsided. I was. Many others have been, too.
        Unless you’re the ONLY person who knows how to knit sweaters for hairless zebras, it’s very rare to have 100% security, ya know?
        I don’t career hop, but I have moved more than my friends, and I’d say it’s been worth it both financially and mentally.
        To that end, my position was eliminated last January. Completely unexpected. I landed on my feet-ish 6 weeks later- the work is fine, but it’s a small org with outlandish policies and a smarmy CEO that I have to interact with entirely too often. So I’m looking, because why stay?
        I have some genuinely great colleagues who have let it slip that they’re miserable, and I want to shake them and say SO WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE (they’ve been there for years, they’re not looking, they’re in a rut.)
        It might take awhile, but I don’t want to stay somewhere I’m not happy. It’s 8 hours a day- that’s a large chunk of my life!
        One senior exec at a past job said to “swing wide”, and I’ve taken that to heart.
        Another extremely bratty ex-coworker said she was “going to take her talents elsewhere.” I could have done without her hair slapping me in the face as she turned to exit, but hey, point taken.

    5. DJ Abbott*

      I stopped trying to read or watch regular news years ago because it’s so depressing and scary. They make everything sound like the end of the world to keep people watching.
      The once or twice I’ve seen stories like you describe, the people ended up homeless because they didn’t have savings, or credit cards, or friends or family they could stay with.
      If you can manage your life so you have all those things, and get a good job that’s not grant funded, it’s not likely to happen to you. If you get a new job that doesn’t work out, look for another one, and if you end up getting fired from that job, you can get unemployment comp.

  29. Lady Lia*

    I work as a freelancer, albeit with a single client. The company will likely go bankrupt soon due to the owner’s incompetence. Getting paid is a constant struggle, and the owner blew up at me yesterday after I inquired about getting paid for an invoice that was past due. I have no confidence in him paying me for future work without a protracted argument. My question is this, Do I continue to do work for him on the hope that I’ll get paid eventually or do I require payment in advance, which will likely lose me my only client? I’ve started job hunting, but I’m not independently wealthy and still need to pay bills until I find a job. Please advise.

    1. nearing the hill*

      Stop working for this client without pay. Invest the time you would have spent working for free on job hunting and/or getting new clients.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This. Either way, you’re not getting paid. Use the time you’re working and not getting paid to do something that could lead to you getting a job that WILL pay you. And start looking into legal action.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Can you interact with someone other than the owner? i.e. do they have a finance person you can inquire to directly about overdue invoices? Your client sounds like they’re managing their cash flow on the backs of their freelancers and other people they have to pay, tbh.

      I wish I could say there was some amazing trick to getting them to pay on time, but there isn’t. A friend is a freelancer who had multiple clients but one that was the majority of his income for the year and they sounded like your client here. He eventually tried to move to a pre-paid system with late fees, but ultimately a company that struggles to pay you will struggle to pay you in any circumstance you come up with. My friend worked with them directly on financial stuff so he saw the writing on the wall before the company did that they wouldn’t be able to keep using his services going forward.

      If these guys are going out of business, you’re going to lose them as a client eventually anyway. You have to decide if fighting with them about going to a pre-payment plan between now and then is going to be worth it financially for you, i.e. even if they agree, do you believe you’ll be able to collect your compensation on time and with the frequency you bill them?

      1. Lady Lia*

        The “company” consists of only 5 people, all of us freelancers, so there is no one else to turn to. He holds all the purse strings. None of my coworkers are getting paid in a timely manner either. The only leverage I have is to require prepayment, but he might choose to simply fire me instead of paying me.

        2. WestSideStory*

          I’ve had these types of clients. Demand pre-payment for any next work, and tell them you will not do any new work until the arrears are paid.

          Sure, he may just drop you. But at least you won’t have worked for nothing. Use the time to find better clients.

          By the way, do you have written contracts for the owed work? Confirming emails at least? If they stiff you, keep sending bills and consider formal collections to collect.

          Lesson to ALL: never ever do freelance work without a written contract that stipulates deadlines for deliverables, how to handle late payments (I charge a late fee after 30 days) and how to manage fee disputes (I use American Arbitration Association clause language).

          Sympathy to you. Consider it a learning experience, and move on.

    3. Mutually supportive*

      If the money isn’t coming through then your choices are
      – don’t get paid, but do the work anyway
      – don’t get paid, and spend that time finding other work (is getting other freelance work an option?)

      You’re going to need a different source of income when this company goes bankrupt, so that has to be the priority.

      It might be worth also doing some work for this client alongside in the hope they pay, but only you can judge that. Could you do part time hours to give time for job hunt? Payment upfront sounds reasonable (or essential!)

    4. Kes*

      I wouldn’t take on more work until they’ve at least paid you for the work you’ve already done that they owe payment to you on. If they can’t pay you even for that work then they’re very unlikely to pay you for future work, unless they’re out of money now but there’s actually a reason to think they’ll have more money in the future (and even if this is the case, I’d still be looking for new clients and/or a new job). If you can’t expect money from this work, you need to focus on finding a new source of income that will pay your bills

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      He can’t / won’t pay what he already owes you and he is likely to go bankrupt soon.
      Why do you think he might pay you for future work? The triumph of hope over experience? If you don’t think he’ll pay then don’t do any more wotk for him.

      Just stop working for him and use the time freed up to find other clients – who are not on the verge of bankruptcy.
      If you can’t find another client, then hunt for a regular professional job. If you need to pay bills now, do temp work or retail/food until you find something that better fits your skillset.

    6. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Don’t sunk-cost-fallacy yourself into doing more work for free for this company. They owe you money and are not solvent! Asking for money up front isn’t going to fix their solvency issues.

      Do not do any work for these people that you would not be happy giving away for free.

      A business that is struggling to pay its employees/contractors is a business that is going out of business. This is not going to magically get better. Cut your losses, set a reminder to pester the owner about your past due invoices once a week, and move on.

    7. Rainy*

      No more work until he ponies up for what he already owes you. Start working your connections and add more clients, job hunt in a very focused way, consider taking a bandaid job in the meantime to bring money in. Doing unpaid work doesn’t pay your bills–in fact, doing unpaid work is both not bringing in money AND taking the time that could otherwise be spent on job hunting, expanding your clientele, or working some random job to make ends meet while you’re waiting for the job search to bear fruit.

      Continuing to do work for this guy while he doesn’t pay you in the hopes that he will pay you for some work before he goes bankrupt and you don’t get paid for any work is the definition of sunk-cost fallacy.

      Also, you might consider reaching out to an attorney to have a formal demand for payment written. It might scare him into paying. You know he’s going down the tubes, and if you’re going to get any money out of him you have to squeeze it out *before* he goes bust.

        1. kalli*

          And it’s usually a strongly recommended or required first step towards formal debt actions, so if it’s not complied with it’s easier to move to that stage then getting another few weeks go by unpaid and then having to send a letter of demand and wait the required period before lodging a formal claim – and a longer intervening period before that point is more time for this dude to declare bankruptcy and the chances of recovery go down. This is especially the case if it’s a jurisdiction where there is a bankruptcy/administration/insolvency, types of debts are prioritised and those that aren’t secured or already in collections fall as a lower priority than those. Freelancer invoices don’t typically get considered as wages for the purposes of insolvency proceedings either.

    8. Bike Walk Barb*

      Start requiring a deposit to begin work on any new projects. Not prepayment for the whole thing but a reasonable percentage.

      Make sure you have invoices submitted for everything and start doing weekly progress billings. If they file for bankruptcy you’re a creditor as long as they have some record of owing you something.

      If he’s not paying you, that’s not going to pay your bills. As others said, unpaid time searching for new clients is ultimately more lucrative. In the meantime, these steps are reasonable business practice and provide a tiny bit of shelter from the potential bankruptcy.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A good freelancer might be able to do very well with a temp agency.

      And how to curiosity are you correctly classified as a contractor/ freelancer? You might want to check the aam archives — you might to be more properly designated an employee by federal definition. And that means unemployment pay!

  30. Seems Reasonable*

    I have a boss who is fixated on supporting the career development of the young people on our our team – and only the young people on our team. This boss acknowledges that they have this bias; I’ve heard them say many times that they believe they have a “responsibility to help young people” more than other employees. Mid-career people are on their own; the boss ignores their professional development. Not only that, but when this boss reports out to executive staff or presents at all hands meetings about big, complex projects led by their mid-career employees, this boss often piles on the praise for any early-career employee who was involved, no matter how little they contributed to the project (and it usually isn’t much, just the typical admin work expected of someone in a junior, entry-level role). The boss spends little to no time highlighting the huge strategic, analytic, and research contributions by the mid-career employees who successfully lead these incredibly challenging, complicated endeavors. If we get mentioned at all, it’s an afterthought when the boss is signing off after doing the presentation, and after everyone in the meeting has already gotten the impression that the early-career young person(s) did all the work and congratulated them multiple times on a project they didn’t actually lead! (I’m not exaggerating: the boss’s focus on spotlighting the young person(s) is so over-the-top that people literally leave the meeting thinking that the early-career employee was responsible for the project’s success.) The consequences are that the executive team doesn’t get to learn about the mid-career employees’ achievements. I think it affects how they view us; I’m worried it could also affect us mid-career employees when they’re deciding on promotions, raises and bonuses. Here’s my question: I led one of those gigantic projects in 2024 and today my organization learned that it has been an enormous success. It was one of the most difficult, challenging things I’ve ever done – so much work it was like having a second job. And when my boss presents on it at our all hands meeting, I want proper credit for leading and absolutely crushing it on this project. Does anyone have any suggestions for having a respectful discussion with my boss about giving me public credit for this achievement?

    1. Cookie Monster*

      I think it depends on what kind of relationship you have with him. I would maybe ask for a meeting with him to discuss the project’s results and say things about it that really emphasize your role.

      Then you can calmly say “I get that you want to support young people but in previous meetings, you’ve talked them up so much that people leave our meetings thinking the junior team members were leading projects. As you know, I worked really hard on [project X] and I’d like to get proper credit for that in front of the executives. Can you make sure that happens?”

      I’m not totally sold on the last question but I think something along those lines is what’s needed. Something to get him to verbally agree to what you’re asking.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes!

    3. Pickles*

      Maybe a heart to heart-I worked my butt off on this project and I’m hoping that the company and executives know what my personal contribution is, along with my colleague Jen X.

    4. Part time lab tech*

      That sucks. Is there an ally who can help?Anyway someone else could present the info or could you (or the ally) write up the presentation notes so it’s harder to overlook the middle career people?
      Could you write a pre presentation email with more accurate responsibilities to everyone. (I say before so it looks proactive rather than defensive.)
      Could you explain that it’s upsetting to have newbies contribution magnified to the point of lead and middles diminished to barely contributing? Adding in a point about not doing newbies that much of a favour if they can’t answer questions?
      Would mentioning age discrimination to HR help?

      1. Seems Reasonable*

        Thank you so much for these suggestions Cookie Monster, Workerbee, Pickles and Part Time Lab Tech, I really appreciate it. Reading your responses helped me get re-centered in my head about this issue and realize there are actionable things I can do for myself here. Thanks again!

  31. Echo*

    In one of today’s reposted letters, Alison said “People with good judgment usually don’t rush to dump negativity onto a new hire and will be more discreet.”

    In light of this – is there a discreet way to warn a new hire about her boss? What I wish I could say is “hey, I saw that you’re reporting to Millicent. She’s brilliant but the nitpickiest human I have ever worked for, and while her feedback is largely spot-on, she delivers it in a way that borders on bullying. If she’s mean to you or makes you feel constantly scrutinized, please don’t let it get to you and don’t question your own expertise. She’s like that with everyone.”

    1. MouseMouseMouse*

      It’s very kind of you to look out for the new hire! I would give it a couple weeks for them to have had more than a few interactions with Millicent. I think it’s best (though tough) for the new hire to experience the unpleasantness first, so that your warning isn’t too out of context or alarming.

      1. Owlette*

        I agree with this. It happened to me as an intern – the junior staff above me took me aside to say “She’s brilliant at X, Y and Z but can be hard to work with”. I’d already experienced this (within 5 min of meeting her I was told I’d be sent home for bringing incorrect paperwork, which was not actually incorrect). I was on edge and having the reassurance “It’s not you” from someone senior was so important. Like MouseMouseMouse said, the context meant it made me feel relieved, not anxious, as I had already experienced the issue

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I always feel like I want to give people a head’s up, but ultimately we’re all different people and this new colleague could end up being the perfect fit for working with Millicent (someone who both loves to be micromanaged and has a really thick skin? I’m sure they’re out there!).

      The new person probably won’t be a great fit for Millicent since most people hate working under someone like this, but I think it’s important to give people the chance to figure that out for themselves and then if they make a comment to you about it, then you can share your own experiences and, where relevant, coping mechanisms.

      1. Tio*

        I have actually seen this work – a person who was insecure and a bit needy, given to a boss who liked to micromanage. She got the security of being constantly watched, and she was effusive enough in her thanks that it made the micromanager preen a bit. I’d have hated either side, but hey, every pot has a lid I guess.

    3. Elevator Elevator*

      I think the only “warning” you can give is to set the expectation that she can expect Millicent to have a lot of corrections/edits/whatever form that feedback takes, but you need to keep that as neutral as possible or frame it as a semi-positive (aka with the emphasis on Millicent’s feedback being spot-on or her having a good eye, not on her terrible delivery). As a new employee I’d want to know that an avalanche of edits is my manager’s standard practice and not a sign that I’m doing disappointing work, if that’s something Millicent can’t be counted on to explain herself.

    4. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I would offer to share facts but not opinions, and only if you’re in a role where it makes sense for you to mentor them. So like, if you’ve reported to Millicent for 10 years and this new hire is on your team, you could say “Millicent is brilliant but nitpicky. I’d be happy to offer you some thoughts on how to navigate that and deliver on her expectations if that would be helpful.” And then stay out of the emotional reaction part (at least until you’ve built a lot more trust with the new hire), stick with advice like “If Millicent finds a single typo in a document she’ll be a lot more critical of the rest of the document, so you’ll get more signoffs on first drafts if you proofread super closely.”

      And if you’re not in that kind of role or can’t offer those kinds of concrete suggestions, I’d steer clear. Your new hire will figure it out on their own or decide this management relationship won’t work for them.

      1. Echo*

        Thanks everyone for your comments, and Cat Lady in the Mountains, I think your comment has the most important takeaway for me – I’m not really in a role where I can mentor Cary (the new hire). I’m in a role where I am helping her with some questions about a specific project, but unless Cary directly approaches me about Millicent I’ll steer clear. My hope is that Cary will find mentorship, and my extra hope is that maybe—like Formerly Frustrated Optimist—Cary will mesh well with Millicent’s management style and she’ll have a great experience!

    5. NorthernTeacher*

      Pergaps sticking to simple facts that naturally fit into regular conversation might help. For example, when the new employee indicates something has happened. You can share that you have had a similar experience, “He forgot to tell me about two meetings last week as well.” Or if they indicate they plan to do something that you know will lead to the problems, “Our boss has strongly discouraged using Times New Roman in the past.” But I would advise not using generalization, “She always does that” or opinion/judgement statements, “He is a micromanager.” Anything you say can and will be used against you if it gets back to the person.

    6. Formerly Frustrated Optimist*

      I agree with the other commenters here: Tread lightly. For one thing, you really don’t want to risk being quoted (or even misquoted) for badmouthing this boss.

      Instead – if appropriate to your role – you could offer to look things over for this new employee, while they’re learning the ropes. And then this new employee would hopefully see you as a trusted, kind person, if they do develop a problem with the boss.

      When I started in my role, I had a couple people “warn” me about one of the managers I’d be working with. They’d say, often with a sneer and an eyeroll, “He’s *very* particular.” To which I would deadpan, “So am I.”

      Indeed, this manager and I had similar values around accuracy and thoroughness, and we ended up working together beautifully. After I’d been there a while, when someone would come at me with the “he’s so particular” line, I would actually say honestly that we had a great working relationship.

    7. HonorBox*

      I don’t think I’d outright say something, but make an effort to get to know this new hire. Ask about them, ask about how they’re liking their job, the company, etc. See if they bring something up. If they don’t, then maybe you’ve opened a door to be a person to talk to if there is something that needs deciphering or if they need counsel later.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      There are ways to spin a lot of this to be a positive for the newcomer.

      For example, Millie “likes to be kept involved with the details of a project” could let a newcomer know how to start off on the right foot with a micromanager.

  32. Elevator Elevator*

    I commented last week about the new job I’m starting next week that had gone radio silent for a few weeks because of the year end rush/the holidays. I emailed yesterday to ask what time I should arrive on my first day, and now the HR contact is flooding me piecemeal with all the forms/questions she presumably meant to send earlier (insurance enrollment, W4, direct deposit, questions about whether my work email is set up/whether I have access to Facetime etc). Not sure why it can’t just wait for Monday at this point, especially since apparently the system access that was supposed to be ready for me day 1 won’t be and onboarding paperwork would be a good way to keep me busy, but I’ll take it over silence!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Haha, the amount of onboarding paperwork I had for this job was MONUMENTAL. It was almost a job itself. The background check was even more intense. I half expected someone to knock on my door and ask me for a drop of blood. 0_0

      Congrats on the new role!

      1. Plate of Wings*

        OMG same for my job! Not a huge multinational, just a few hundred person company. I don’t know where they even had time to collect this many processes.

  33. Laurel*

    I’m so frustrated today! I work with a ton of super smart people. We’re in pharma, so most of us are scientists, at least by education. That includes me, though my job is project manager. I have one project team of all men, including the clients. Clients are really great, but two of the dudes I work with are just…not. They are both super intelligent and knowledgeable, have PhDs, and one is actually very well known in our field and has been honored with many awards. But I cannot get them to actually do their jobs sometimes. For example, aforementioned client’s project is going spectacularly well, which is awesome! We’re moving into the next phase more quickly than I’ve ever seen a project move. That requires a new contract. Typically, these guys would be the ones writing up the technical aspects of the contract. But we’ve had a lot of changes to the process lately, and so it’s murky as to who is responsible for what. One guy wants to be totally hands-off, which is problem for obvious reasons. The other wants to be totally hands-on, except he won’t actually be at all hands-on. So I ended up writing the contract. My science bkgd is close to what we do, but not exactly the same. The technical parts I wrote are not perfect; why would they be? Hands-on guy is all bothered by it, tore it to shreds, and acted put out by having to review such garbage. I’m not offended by that part, but it’s like, dude I had to do your job for you because otherwise it would never get done!! You don’t get to be annoyed!! You’re 4 pay levels above me, and I had to do. Your. Job. I’m the one who gets to be annoyed here.
    I’m so tired of chasing these men (and it’s only men who act like this here) to do their jobs, especially when I know damn well they’re making 2-3x what I make and since hands-on guy brought the client in, he gets a bonus based on every contract we execute. I don’t get a bonus for it, yet here we are – I’m writing the contract, he’s getting the glory, aka the money. I’m so sick of it. It’s been brought up to mgmt so many times, but there are no consequences. Maybe if I were male and had a PhD, I could rest on my laurels and let everyone else make money for me, too….
    I’ve had the same problem with 2 others, both men. And there’s a new guy who has told people he refuses to write contracts. I haven’t worked with him yet, but I’m sure it’ll be so much fun when I do.
    Just had to vent! I don’t know how much of it is sexism, how much is straight up entitlement and/or ego, and how much is laziness, but I’m so over it. FWIW, the women in the same positions never behave this way.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think a lot of this is sexism and laziness, but also: But we’ve had a lot of changes to the process lately, and so it’s murky as to who is responsible for what. You’re the project manager: is part of being a PM not documenting the changes and then updating RACI chart or whatever you use to make sure it’s clear who is responsible for what? Are the process changes actually working if you end up writing the contracts? Also, do these guys not have bosses?

      I think these two are going to behave like jerks regardless of what you do, but I do wonder if there are easier ways to coax what you need out of them (e.g. you write the contract without the technical stuff, and the technical stuff is just in an addendum they can add at the end).

      1. Laurel*

        They do have bosses, but they don’t really seem to care much about who’s doing what, as long as it gets done. We were bought by a new company a year ago, and the process for contracts/addendums keeps changing, mostly because there are a handful of guys who don’t want to write them or who do the bare minimum and then pass them off to someone else to finish. No one can make a decision on how this should work and stick with it, so it’s become a free-for-all.
        Your second paragraph is how it’s supposed to work, or at least that’s how it was supposed to work. It used to be that PMs wrote them, the scientists would flesh out the technical parts, and then they would be priced. We have good templates. It worked pretty well. But now, with no clearly defined process, it’s just chaos. But if hands-on guy says he wants to write them, then I expect that he’s going to write them, not just let it languish until the project has stalled – which is very, very bad. That is where we are now, and if I didn’t write it, who knows how long it would be…It’s like learned helplessness or something. It’s driving me nuts!

          1. Laurel*

            It really has been! I used to love working here, but the last year has been very challenging! We have great people, so I’m hopeful it’ll get under control eventually.
            Just met with the project team. Turns out hands-off guy has also reviewed what I wrote, made some minor changes, and has it like 98% ready to go to the client. So, surprisingly, it has worked out well! Maybe I need to chill out a little lol

    2. Lady Lessa*

      That explains very clearly why PhD means Piled higher and Deeper.

      My sympathy, I’m a woman and a chemist, so I’ve seen some of the same things.

    3. Kay*

      Can you just… not write their part? Ask them for their part and do the rest with an “insert blurb from Dr. Dbag here when he finally gets around to it (I mean “to come”)”?

      I guess my point is, why are you doing their job instead of letting them fail?

      1. Laurel*

        Because then we fail the clients, which is crappy and makes us (especially me!) look bad. If it’s something that won’t affect a client, I’m more than happy to let them fail. And it cases like this, I’m very vocal about how things went down, but it just falls on deaf ears.

        1. WestSideStory*

          Let them fail. A few failures and things may improve. Right now you are doing extra work for nothing, and far more invested in the process than these two jerks, who will be happy to continue to coast on your labor.

        2. Kay*

          So what are the consequences if you/(they) look bad? Is this a damage your reputation so you won’t be able to get another job in the industry type look bad, or, what appears to be happening with your co-workers, you look bad and there are no consequences?

          You can’t care more than those above you, and if they aren’t willing to do anything when you continually raise this you can either a) do everyone’s job and have feelings about it b) find another job or c) accept everyone will look bad and be okay with that.

  34. Tradd*

    I would like to be able to use my personal AirPod Pro 2 with my work Win11 desktop instead of the bulky wired headset provided by the office. Sometimes they connect, sometimes they don’t. If they do connect, I can hear the little notification beeps and such from my computer and the people on the other end of the call can hear me, but I can never hear them. Volume on PC is up. Any ideas? Thanks

    1. Emperor Kuzco*

      IT person here! In the sound settings on your desktop, is the input/out put both changed to your airpod? And in the app you’re using for calls, does the input/output show the airpod?

      Also, Apple things don’t always play well with Windows devices – just something to be aware of. (and vice versa)

    2. MouseMouseMouse*

      Ask your IT/support desk! Work devices often have layers of security to prevent randon peripherals like earbuds or USBs from connecting. Your IT folks should be able to help.

    3. Tradd*

      Thanks for the comments, but the issue just appears to have resolved itself! Someone called me on Teams and I could hear them fine! Weird tech stuff! LOL.

    4. No name today*

      I work for city government and our windows 11 laptops and desktops ONLY connect via Bluetooth if there’s a dongle in a usb slot (think of the way cordless keyboards and cordless mice connect). So I don’t think your AirPods will ever consistently work the way you want them to.

      Instead see what single-based wireless headsets with mics will work with the make/model of your computer.

  35. Clementine*

    Looking for an outside perspective, if I am reading too much into this or if there’s something to be concerned about…

    I’ve worked for a small/medium family-owned company (about 50 employees) for 4 years. It’s good overall, but has a lot of the “but we’re a family here” issues you’d expect, which came to a head for me this summer when I asked for a raise. The company does not do COLA and merit increases are upon request.
    I am a high performer by our internal metrics and all feedback I have gotten from management over 3 years was extremely positive, but I got a lot of runaround when I asked directly for a raise. One of the talking points that upper management brought up repeatedly was that the company offers benefits beyond base salary as a way to increase total compensation. They cited Christmas gifts specifically a number of times – the year before I started at the company the Christmas gift was about $2500 value. Since I started they’ve ranged about $250-500.
    This year, our highest revenue year in the company’s 20-year history, the Christmas gift is about $75 value. And it’s something that the company makes. Say we are are a printer and make high-end coffee table books; this year we all received one of the books we printed this year.

    Normally I wouldn’t use this kind of thing as a barometer of the company’s health, but I was told repeatedly by upper management this year that when the company is doing well, they share that with the employees through things like Christmas gifts.
    Am I just in BEC mode? Or is it reasonable to interpret this as a sign that the company may be floundering?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The way I look at this, they are just stingy in general.

      As for this year, it could be that high revenue equals low profits: having to pay out lots of overtime, dealing with capital expenditures to support that revenue, etc. It’s really hard to know with a privately-held business like that, and I think in the end it doesn’t really matter. Your employer is stingy, they don’t give COLA raises, and promotions/merit raises require a lot of negotiating. None of those are things I look for in job.

    2. Elevator Elevator*

      Any chance the company has grown a lot in the last few years (or in the few years before you joined)? $2,500 gifts might have been something that made sense when they had ten employees but not at 50, and ownership hasn’t wrapped their head around the fact that spending a total of $X on “perks” doesn’t mean as much per employee as it did 5-10 years ago. I’ve worked at places where the company’s self-image hadn’t caught up with some of the changes that necessarily came with growth.

      (Also, my first admin job was at a small business that hired two of us at 30 hours rather than a part timer, and once pointed out a time someone ordered Papa Gino’s for the office as a perk that offset the lack of health insurance. Employers can be delusional about the perk/salary tradeoff.)

      In any case – either they can’t afford to give you the raise you deserve, or they can afford it but they won’t. Not sure it matters what the reason is.

      1. Angstrom*

        Makes sense. The kindest interpretation is that it’s selective memory, and their past “generosity” is blinding them to their current behavior.

    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      Definitely not BEC. This is why, according to various surveys, 55-60% of Americans think we’re in a recession. For the most part, money isn’t trickling down much anymore after those historically large wage increases in 2021.

      Things look austere around you, but the company is actually doing well (in terms of earnings, though some companies get those good earnings through cost cutting)

      In your case, I’d lean a bit towards “greed” because you say there is record revenue, but I’d dig one more layer and look at costs. How are material costs? Legal/compliance costs? Rent or property taxes? Health insurance costs? I’ve definitely seen large expenses rise more than inflation. Maybe since insurance is going up 6-7% every year, they’re running out of money for raises?

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      A Christmas gift is not compensation! You’re not being unreasonable. Even when the gift was valued higher, getting a gift from the company that is something the company themselves makes isn’t some amazing piece of generosity. Oh, you had extras? Cool. It’s inventory reduction, not a gift.

      Can you pay rent with the gift? Buy groceries? Take a vacation? Pay for medication? No? Oh. You’re not being unreasonable, these people just suck.

      1. Special K9*

        Here’s a gift you didn’t ask for and likely didn’t actually want! Now don’t ask for fair compensation! We’ll just keep paying you 3% less every year as inflation eats away at your earnings, and you’ll say thank you.

        No that’s not BEC, that’s truly enraging stuff.

    5. Clementine*

      To be fair, they did eventually cough up the raise. But I felt that they were trying to stall until I dropped it, and it left a really bad taste in my mouth.

      Thanks commenters for the reminder that this is just another data point about how the company operates, and not something to worry about individually. I was planning to ramp up my job search this spring anyways!

  36. PropJoe*

    In a turn of events that surprised me not in the least, earlier this week I was diagnosed with ADHD and was started on a non-stimulant pharmaceutical (atomoxetine, for the curious) to help treat it. I have a followup with my psychiatrist in about a month.

    Other than my partner, I haven’t told anyone, not even my siblings (who I’m sure would be supportive & entirely unsurprised).

    Is there any benefit to disclosing my ADHD status at work? I see little risk of blowback within my dept, as my boss is a very kind & empathetic person, and another of my colleagues almost certainly has some form of neurodivergence too.

    2. Cordelia*

      No benefit in disclosing purely as an FYI, but are there any accommodations you intend to ask for? Or any performance weaknesses at work that might be more accepted by your team if they knew your diagnosis? Basically, I think it’s whether you want anyone to do anything differently than they currently are.

    3. cmdrspacebabe*

      I think this varies a lot by workplace and by person. Disclosing has been great for me – though I waited until a) I had a strong reputation and b) I needed a specific accommodation that the ADHD clearly justified. I think framing it through an accommodation request might have helped set the tone – if you just say “I have ADHD”, they won’t know what the implications are for them, and might fill in the blanks with negatives. If you say, “Can I have a quieter desk to help with my ADHD” or what-have-you, it’s a lot less nebulous – just a clear need to be met with a clear solution.

      I don’t think disclosing affected people’s perception of me because I’d already made strong impressions – and because my workplace happens to be very open to neurodivergence. In my case, it actually helped my work; my role intersects with a lot of diversity and inclusion initiatives and being able to discuss and contribute based on my personal experiences helps to establish credibility and build connections. My offhand comments about meds or coping mechanisms have also helped quite a few of my coworkers figure out their own diagnoses or just be more comfortable working in ways that suit their quirks, which is a nice perk.

      If you’re starting meds and your habits might change, people might also notice and ask about it, so it could be worth having a line in mind if someone mentions it. Either to tell them it’s ADHD meds, or just to have some other excuse on hand if you’re not comfortable with that yet (personally, I would go with “my New Year’s resolution was to get more sleep, it’s really paying off!”).

    4. Bonne chance*

      I think that I’m pretty noticeably neurodivergent but I’m also pretty private; I’ve shared that I have ADHD in professional settings where doing so was relevant, so it’s not a secret, but it’s also not something I have formally disclosed at work. Some of my colleagues feel more themselves at work by being vocal about ADHD as part of their identity and/or working style, and I suspect that other colleagues may have a formal diagnosis but would never share that info with me or anyone else at work. I’m team “Do what you need to stay safe, and what you want/can to create the kind of culture(s) you want in the workplace.”

      As a manager who has ADHD, I’ve found it most helpful when my direct reports name the issue they are trying to solve for or the accommodation they are seeking, rather than sharing their specific condition/diagnosis/neurotype. I would like to think I am a generally kind boss, and my current workplace is pretty accommodating, so it’s not a matter of blowback. It’s more that the same diagnosis presents differently and different people have individualized needs, so having ADHD doesn’t actually give me much info as a manager (or give much info beyond stereotypes to my manager, either). Being specific about what I or others need to do good work is more helpful.

  37. Emperor Kuzco*

    A general question for yall: how long do you stick it out at jobs? I think Alison generally recommends 2 years. I’m currently at the 1 year mark, and while I won employee of the year in December (honestly not sure how it happened!), the company did not have a spectacular year so our raises were limited to 2%. Which is 60 cents for me. I understand the reasoning and I’m a bit bummed out, but I’m really more concerned about staying here another year and ending up with another measly raise, when there’s always a chance I could move on to another job with higher starting pay. I live in a kind of expensive area so being able to save money while not spending all my paycheck on housing is a big worry point for me.

    What are your thoughts? What made you stick it out at a job, and was it worth it? Or, did moving on end up being a great idea?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      What does your previous job history look like, and what’s normal for your industry? (You don’t need to answer here, just for you to think about.)

      Generally, one short stay isn’t a problem. Sometimes people take a job that’s a bad fit, or the company lays them off, or their spouse gets a job offer they can’t refuse on the other side of the country, etc. If you have a history of normal/long-term jobs relative to your industry expectations, I think you can start a casual job search now. (For example, if you have mostly stayed at previous companies 5-6 years or even 2-3 years in an industry where 2-3 year stays are normal, one 1-year job won’t raise any red flags.)

    2. RoadLessTraveler*

      Hi Emperor! I wrote something similar below. I’m getting itchy at the new job where I don’t see a raise coming and it’s three years in March. I think I’ve stayed a year too long but now I have really great references, if that matters. I say start looking. You have the comfort of taking your time and picking the next role carefully. And always looking for growth in each role.

      As for moving on being a great idea, what I told my partner is the next role doesn’t have to be the ultimate step up. But it will be a salary increase and maybe I won’t stay as long since I’ve stayed very long the last two jobs. But to stay with no salary increase in sight, you just won’t get far, so maybe look at the larger plan. I hope you do find something you like and pays you more, though. You sound like a great employee!

    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I’d at least look around and see what you can get salary-wise. Just be prepared to stay there for a few years if you do make a move. As a hiring manager a single short stint that can be explained with “I left for a better salary” would not worry me at all in candidates unless you’d done it 2-3 times in short succession, or if I got indications that your expectations of salary growth were unrealistic.

    4. Nonsense*

      Leaving because of pay is a perfectly valid reason, especially when your raise didn’t even amount to a single dollar. Obviously every industry and job market is different, but 2-3 years is about average now, especially if you’re still earlier in your career. You owe it to yourself to grow and expand your abilities, and that includes your career.

      As for myself… I’ll have been with my company for 6 years come Tuesday, but two years ago I moved to a new state and took on a completely different role. I was good at my old role but I was bored, and I was very unhappy living in that state too. I got very lucky that when I asked my old boss about the possibility of moving to a new office, she was completely supportive and reached out to her contacts. If that hadn’t happened, I would have left within the year, because me and boredom do not do well together.

  38. AManIsNotAPlan*

    I was typing this out, and it honestly seems like such an overdone question. But I guess it’s a common issue and maybe some people could share actual solutions beyond “suck it up, parenting small children and working is hard.”

    We’ve got a pretty good setup for our family right now – I negotiated to get Fridays off when I had my son a year ago, and that 3 day weekend is what keeps everything afloat. (Cleaning, grocery shopping, self care, etc. all happen on Friday.) My husband is working as a flight instructor, but he just hit enough hours to get an airline job, so we’re looking at an interstate move in the next year or so. My company is skeptical of remote work, so I wouldn’t be able to keep this job and even if I could I think it would be bad for my career because of the work culture and being the only one remote. The solution is obviously to find a new job in the area we will move to. But thinking about working full-time while solo parenting a toddler half the month sounds like hell and I don’t want to, and there are no part-time computer programming jobs. Seems like I bow out of the workforce and our finances take a huge hit, or I get a full-time job and burn myself out in no time, but I’m sure there are other options I’m not considering.

    1. MouseMouseMouse*

      Unfortunately I don’t have any experience to draw from, but my main question is: what does your husband think? Where does he land on the two options you’ve mentioned?

      1. AManIsNotAPlan*

        Given that he loves paid work and I do not, and we hope to have another child or two, he thinks we should be down an income until we have our kids in school. But he also doesn’t do most of the budgeting and has expensive tastes, so I think if we were to sit down and really run the numbers (which we haven’t done yet because we don’t know where we’re going to be moved to so there are no numbers to run) he would be a lot less enthusiastic about being a single income family. Honestly though, I think he’ll be most invested in whatever I say I want to do.

        1. Double A*

          Yeah, you need to sit down and have a very serious conversation with him about all this. You’re thinking of maybe having 3 kids and he wants to do it on a single income while maintaining his expensive tastes. I do think a single income is doable if you’re willing to really cut back, and having a person doing to the job of managing a tight budget (and doing the work you would otherwise pay for) helps a lot. I also think if you want to stay home, you should really consider it. That does seem to be the most common set up I see if you’re not really wealthy or don’t have an extended network. Just take into consideration the long term hits that will make to your earning potential and social security. Think about that especially in the event of a divorce or death.

          1. Hlao-roo*

            Just take into consideration the long term hits that will make to your earning potential and social security. Think about that especially in the event of a divorce or death.

            In the same vein as this advice, and because you mentioned in another comment that he could potentially make 3-4x as much in an airline job, if you do decide to stop working, look into opening a Spousal IRA. If you and your husband file a joint tax return, you can still contribute to your own IRA. It’s important for both spouses to have their own retirement savings.

            1. Whomst*

              Off topic, but as someone who is still in their 20s, I think it’s cute that people think that we should be planning for retirement like social security is still going to be present in its current state by the time we hit retirement age.

              2. Abigail*

                I’m in my 40’s and when people mention receiving Social Security it’s so jarring.

                The numbers have never worked for me to receive social security. Since I got my first job at 16, I assumed Social Security is something I pay into and not something I will ever receive.

                I’m just surprised people trust the program.

        2. Kay*

          I highly recommend that you do not underestimate just how hard it is to curb expensive tastes and just how much little things add up. The more drastic the change, the harder it will be to sustain. A trial run for the budget is your best bet if you do choose to go down to one income. For us it took a few months to even be able to get to where we wanted to be, and we only sustained about a year of trying before we sort of gave up. Granted – ours was a little different of a situation, but the struggle was real!

          1. AManIsNotAPlan*

            Definitely concur. I have no doubt that I could manage a one income household because I grew up poor, paid my way through college without parental help, all that jazz. I have experience. My husband grew up affluently and has never had to actually budget, so I don’t think he fully realizes what he’d be signing on for if I quit my job.

            1. Kay*

              He has no idea and it will be a real struggle unless he truly is some unicorn. I’m similar to you and even I found it harder than expected. I think it would have been easier with someone who was as dedicated as I wanted to be, but it gets exhausting being the one to always nix the fun stuff, arguing for lower cost option, citing the budget budget budget – you crack! Also think about how the division of labor is going to play out – if he isn’t helping and you are doing the heavy lifting on all fronts you may grow resentful.

              Things may end up working out well for you – but definitely things to think about beforehand.

        3. DJ Abbott*

          You could sit him down now and show him the budget you have now. That will give him an idea of what things cost so he’ll be more aware re doing one income.

    2. Yes And*

      You mention your son is a year old, and the move will come “in the next year or so.” I found with my kids that day care options get better, easier, and more comprehensive starting with two-year-olds. Threes are easier than twos, and fours are easier than threes, at least as far as day care goes. So there may be a light at the end of the tunnel in that regard. I hope that helps somewhat.

    3. JustMyImagination*

      Outsource! Instead of dropping your salary by leaving the workforce, can you use it to hire a cleaner, a weekend mother’s helper, grocery delivery, etc?

      1. AManIsNotAPlan*

        I’ve never actually had the resources to outsource like this, but I wonder how helpful it actually is. Like, you have to find and schedule and manage and pay any help you get, so the actual time and mental bandwidth savings seem minimal, unless you’re dropping enough cash to have some sort of household manager that handles it all. Could people who have experienced this chime in?

        1. appo*

          Having a cleaner come once or a couple times a month and using Instacart isn’t typically load-bearing for people. You may as well try those out a couple times and you can always drop it if you feel that’s too much for you to schedule.

        2. JustMyImagination*

          I have a cleaner that comes twice a month. It was a little bumpy getting started but once she and I worked out a routine, she just comes every other Wednesday and I pay her with a check or cash. The schedule is pretty much set it and forget it now. Grocery delivery, I build my shopping cart while rocking my toddler to sleep since she’s never been a good independent sleeper. And I select the delivery window when I know I’ll be home. I’ve never used a mother’s helper but I threw that in so that you can have a few hours on the weekends when your husband is away to have time to yourself or get other errands done.

          1. This Old House*

            I’ve been wanting to hire a cleaner for years and have been getting tripped up by the logistics. How do you find someone you trust to be in your house alone? When I ask for recommendations in local groups, 98% of the responses are people recommending themselves! How do they get into your house? Does this near-stronger have their own key to let themselves in? Do you leave work to let them in? Hide a key outside? Do you have to be home the first time they come to show them around? The mental load/logistical hurdles on this have absolutely paralyzed me and we just live in filth instead.

            1. WestSideStory*

              The people to ask are people who already have cleaners coming to homes in your neighborhood. Do you know any of those? I got my first cleaner from a friend who lived a few blocks away – the cleaner was happy to have two jobs close to each other for the time required (we both did four hours every two weeks) so it worked out until my cleaner retired!

            2. Sara K*

              Caveat: I am not in the US and consumer protections may be different in my country. If I couldn’t find a cleaner that was recommended by someone I trust, I’d use a service as there is a usually a contract that governs all of the logistics and mandatory insurance that covers breakages, thefts, etc. Generally with a cleaner you are home the first few times to work with them to identify what you want done and how but also so that they can let you know about what they need from you to make sure it works for everyone, including pets if you have them. Once everything is established you can work out the best way for them to get access to your house (maybe they only come when you are home, maybe you give them a key and make sure they know how to lock up, maybe a neighbour lets them in).

        3. Phoenix*

          I use grocery delivery and a laundry service to deal with my busy job + chronic illness. There’s no finding/scheduling/managing involved because both are on-demand app-based services. It’s very easy and saves me hours a week. I specifically use Shipt and Poplin but there are many options out there.

          I also used to work as a mother’s helper as a teenager and can confirm there was very little scheduling or managing involved, lol. I just got a text a day or two in advance asking if I could work X hours. If families weren’t happy with my work they just hired a different neighborhood kid. It’s usually as easy as adding an email/post to the neighborhood listserv.

        4. Lady Danbury*

          My sister/BIL have 2 young kids and having a cleaner come in monthly has made a huge difference for them. Not having to do the deep cleaning and being comfortable with the house being a little messier towards the end of the month has significantly cut down on the time that they spend cleaning in between. Obviously it doesn’t mean zero cleaning, but a lot less. It may take some trial and error to find a cleaner that works for you, but it’s worth it.

        5. Generic Name*

          Hiring a cleaner (if you can afford it) absolutely saves time! It’s so nice to come home to a clean house that I didn’t spend hours cleaning. We had a set day our cleaner came and we left a check on the counter for her pay (this was years ago). Easy peasy.

        6. Abigail*

          Laundry service, child care, cleaning services, grocery delivery, every single one of them has been worth every single penny.

          No regrets.

        7. DJ Abbott*

          I have not had good experiences with grocery delivery. Instacart worked pretty well the first few years it was around, but since then the shoppers ignore my directions, substitute things I can’t use, and don’t listen when I try to stop them.
          I see some of the people here do have a good experience with them, so maybe it varies by region.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Here are some options I see:

      – You bow out of the workforce. Your finances take a huge hit in the present and you give up years (?) of raises and social security contributions. (Don’t discount the hit to future finances that will come with dropping out of the workforce.)

      – You get a new full-time computer programming job and burn yourself out.

      – You get a new full-time computer programming job and pay to outsource things (cleaning, grocery delivery, etc. as JustMyImmagination suggests) to avoid burnout.

      – You switch to a field with more part-time options. Your finances will still take a hit, but not as big of a hit as leaving the workforce entirely. And staying in the workforce will make it easier to return to a full-time computer programming job in the future than if you had left the workforce entirely.

      – Husband continues working as a flight instructor instead of taking an airline job, you continue working your current job, and life continues as-is for another year? Another two? Forever? Yes And mentions that daycare/childcare options generally get better as children get older. I don’t know what the financial benefits of an airline job vs a flight instructor are for your husband, or if it will be more difficult for him to make the switch the more time passes. But this could be an option.

      1. Jeneral*

        It does seem like your husband waiting a few years to join an airline is worth looking into. If it’s possible to wait, but it’s just that he’s excited about it and wants to do it as soon as possible–that needs to be balanced against single parenting or a major financial hit to your long term retirement security, raises, etc. It shouldn’t just be you making all the sacrifices.

        1. AManIsNotAPlan*

          All things on balance, I think it would actually be most advantageous in the long run to get him into the airlines as soon as possible. Airline pilots have a forced retirement age and make 3-4x as much as a flight instructor in the first couple years, far more than that once you make captain. It would just be tight for the next year or two, with childcare costs.

          1. Tio*

            If you’re anticipating a raise of that kind, I think what you should do is first look at what your budget would look like if you had the same income (even if you won’t!) and what that would look like if you moved. How would you make it work on that income? That’s one plan.

            Next plan is what you would do if you had 2x the income. Where does the other half of that income go? Is it you stay home and that half is “your” income? Do you take it and use it for daycare and/or after hours childcare so you can continue working without burning out? And which of those two things sounds more appealing to you, personally? You have to factor in your loss of potential income in exiting the career path temporarily, but also if you don’t like what you do that much and really do WANT to be home with the kids managing the house directly, that’s valid.

            Bothof these plans don’t fully factor in the move exactly, as if you’re going from a LCOL area to a HCOL area that’s going to affect things. But if you really can have him make 3-4x his income in a year, it may be worth doing, as you said. But you really are going to have to sit down and count out the pennies and agree to a money plan – and stick to it. How good, in full honesty, are both of you at that? Be very honest with yourselves.

          2. Mgguy*

            Out of curiosity, how critical do you see moving/relocating to be?

            I ask because my sister’s husband is a pilot, and actually took a lot of the same track as your husband(worked as an airport flight instructor, etc, to build hours for entry level on an airline).

            He got his first airline job when they were still dating, and he moved to the city where he was based(Dayton, OH for reference). After they married, he moved to the Cincinnati area where my sister was already living/established, and about 2 hours away from Dayton. They were about 20 minutes from the big Cincy airport-actually a bit to their advantage since they live in Kentucky which is where the main airport is-and it was never an issue. He occasionally had to drive to Dayton, but most of the time he just had to get to the closest airport and they’d either schedule him to fly out of there or get him where he needed to be.

            Your husband may know this, but something to keep in mind was that his first few years at the airline-in his case a now-gone regional commuter subsidy of a big 3 airline-were pretty miserable. He was low enough in seniority that he’d sometimes get middle of the night calls or otherwise after legal minimum rest periods. It was actually kind of scary how much they worked him and how little they respected rest periods/time off. Incidentally, he’s no longer with that line-he ended up flying corporate/business jets, got laid off in the 2008 downturn, spent a few years bouncing around corporate jobs he hated, went back to the first airline, then after a year there got called back to the corporate jet line and has been there since.

            He now has a nice, predictable week on/week off schedule and even though I don’t know the ins and outs of their finances nor do I want to, my teacher sister never went back to full time work after their 3rd child(she subs some now) and, well, I’d love to live in their house. Take that for what it’s worth.

            1. AManIsNotAPlan*

              The suckiness of the initial years at an airline is actually why we want to move. If you live close enough to an airport that you can be at home when you’re on reserve, it mitigates some of the issues. We live 2 hours drive from the nearest major airport right now, and that’s not even a hub for the airline he wants to fly with. We’re planning on him commuting anyway for the first couple months so we can get a feel for the schedule and don’t feel rushed to move, but it’s definitely not a long term solution.

    5. Rara Avis*

      My husband started unexpectedly traveling for work when our child was a toddler. So I did solo parenting part of the month while working full time. It was definitely challenging, and we didn’t have family in the area to help. Things that made it manageable: a teenage babysitter one night a week so I could keep doing my music hobby. Great childcare at the YMCA so I could work out (usually only once a week.) lots of chores on the weekends.

      Some things to consider: you might be able to negotiate a 4-day week at a new job as well. Your husband might make enough more that you could afford to stay home until the kid is a little older. Taking daycare expenses out of the equation makes a difference. (Infant care was more than half of my salary …)

      1. AManIsNotAPlan*

        Childcare costs are definitely another point in favor of not working… Another part of our sweet setup now is that a neighbor who is a stay at home mom watches my son for cheap. Moving somewhere without that social network, we would need to spring for far more expensive childcare. And likely lower quality, honestly.

    6. Strive to Excel*

      So – story from my own family. My mom is in the medical field, so her schedule is not a nice neat 8-5. She moved to part time when we were children, and we had a full time nanny on the weekdays she was working. Her work schedule was two weekdays & every other weekend, which meant my dad could cover childcare part of the time. My dad had a regular 8-5.

      In your situation, from my very limited knowledge of what being a pilot involves, your situations are swapped; your husband is about to take on the incoherent schedule (because planes do not fly 8-5), and you have the nice regular working schedule. Once he gets a job, is there a way you can ensure that at least for a few years his work days and your work days do not overlap 100%? This would reduce the cost of childcare (because he can be home) and let you work a regular schedule without burning out.

    7. Pretty as a Princess*

      I’ve been in the software industry a long time and seen just about everything, including lots of people who build software and work PT. I still see plenty of that. You might have to think about different kinds of things (eg if you are working on product now, considering instead internally-focused positions where you are doing development on custom internal systems) but jobs writing code while working part time definitely exist.

      I don’t know what aspect of tech you work in now, but I’d look around at higher education institutions in your new location as a starting point. (That does not mean you’d be writing ed tech software!) They tend to have lots of internal applications development work.

      The other thing is considering what you can outsource. Housecleaning once or twice a month? Having a mother’s helper one or two evenings a week? Grocery delivery – or at least curbside pickup? (Though I confess I’m not such a big fan of this anymore.)

      Or, how are benefits for your husband? Could you do contract development work?

      1. AManIsNotAPlan*

        Thanks for the software specific tips! I’m technically midcareer, but I’ve been at the same company since I was in undergrad so my knowledge of the career options out there is informed by browsing indeed or my college’s career board. I also feel a little out of my depth looking at software job listings because I have trouble seeing how my current skills (code and document generation) are applicable to most listings, which carries over to being hesitant at contract dev work. Gives me a good place to diversify my searching.

    8. Llellayena*

      You say there are no part-time computer programming jobs but are you really sure about that? Once you know where you’re moving to it might make sense to reach out to someone in computer programming in the area (or now to someone who does remote work) to find out if part time could be an option and how to approach it. Also, there’s an option of freelancing or contract work through an agency where you can set your hours. There might be a company out there who needs too much programming for one person but not enough for two.

      1. AManIsNotAPlan*

        Suggestions on how to make those connections? I’m allergic to cold calling or linked in.

        1. Pretty as a Princess*

          College alumni networks and Greek alumni networks, if you were Greek in undergrad, are very helpful.

    9. Morning Reader*

      “solo parenting a toddler half the month sounds like hell and I don’t want to”

      Well there’s your answer. You don’t want to, and potentially, you can afford not to.

      I’ll push back on the “solo parenting hell” aspect, though. I was a single mother and while yes, it had its difficult moments, it was not hellish at all. It was actually easier (from my perspective) than the lives of SAHM friends of mine whose partners traveled for work a lot. Because then all the parenting and keeping the home fires burning was on them, 24/7. (Now that I think of it, all of those friends took jobs once their kids were 5, or 8.) Work, if you like your job, can be a relief compared to spending 24/7 with a toddler. (Who are delightful, of course, but often unrelenting.) The key is good reliable day care. A good friend network helps too but you can develop that with fellow-parent interactions from kids’ day cares, schools and other activities.

      So my vote would be get a job. Maybe part time or remote hybrid or some stretch from your previous industry. Wait til you’re settled in the new place and look for opportunities. You can afford to be picky. It’s best, long term, to keep your hand in somehow.

    10. BigLawEx*

      Girl, I love your name and… I want to call you and hold your hand. This is solvable. But it will probably be a lot of work on your part and having done this kind of labor in a marriage…well it’s not fair. But IME between myself and a lot of friends if you don’t grab the reigns it could be at your peril.

      Let’s dive in.

      First, the household labor is the easiest part of the equation. Decide what you want/need and reach out first to friends, but if you’re in a new community, other moms. Neighbors, etc. I’ve had a weekly housekeeper since 1997. The first was a friend’s housekeeper. When I moved to a new city, I used a service until I could find someone. The next five or six were friends’ housekeepers. My current employee has been with me 7 years. Trust your gut. At the end of the day, it’s usually a woman who understands that she’s really helping another woman and you can have a wonderful relationship on that basis. Decide what your priorities are. For me, it’s kitchen/bathrooms/laundry. Those are three things I wouldn’t want to do under pain of death. My friend LOVES folding clothes and our shared housekeeper does other things.

      Find a part-time nanny. I did a nanny share before hiring her full time for stretches (when the other family moved on). It worked wonderfully. I still talk to her nearly every day even though my son is 14. It’s another situation where you need to find someone who makes you feel safe/comfortable and understands that she’s really helping out another woman. She and I talk about this, often, still.

      Pay and tip generously. Give time off. Be kind.

      Now, on the airline/pilot thing. I have several friends who were/are pilots. I hate to saddle you with this, but when my ex was entering legal practice (we met in law school), I did all the research on the clerkships/law firm jobs because I didn’t feel like we could afford to make a mistake.

      I know you have a kid and a full time job, but before you have more kids or give up that job, I want you to be 100% sure your husband is making the best moves given the best information. Are there some pilots you can reach out to on your own? My four closest pilot friends work for the DOD, UPS, Southwest (after leaving Alaska), and United. I know a few who fly corporate/private. There are ways to work this career to minimize flying time and maximize income, union benefits, and retirement benefits.

      I know there’s a push now to move to airlines because there’s a shortage and this may be the best time to join up, but research will be your friend here. My preference is long haul/international for fewest hours/best pay. But that really requires you stick to big airines near major airports most in HCOL areas. Sure, you an live near a smaller airport, but all that moving around can cost so many hours of ‘commuting time.’

      Lastly, have you heard of Eve Rodsky? If not, please have a look at her website. I met her a few months ago when she did a rare talk at her house about her Fair Play concept. I met her husband as well. Let’s just say that earning the bulk of the money and working long hours should NOT exempt your husband from household/emotional labor. I’d love for you to get that sorted out before any major changes are made.

      Also, all the money advice is dead on. I know women who dropped out. We all have coffee all the time. None expected it to happen. Many miss their old jobs. Most can’t go back. Make sure you have a death/divorce plan is all I’m saying.

      *thanks for coming to my Ted Talk*

  39. Lurker*

    I’m expecting a job offer that I’ll likely accept, but I’ll wait to give notice at my current job until the background check etc is all done and everything finalized. I have an international business trip coming up that will likely be during my notice period so I will have to cancel it. Do I wait until I actually give notice, which could be a few days before I’m supposed to leave, or is there another reasonable excuse for canceling sooner? I don’t trust my manager enough to be open with him until things are final with the new job.

    1. Pam Adams*

      I would keep the trip as planned- if the boss wants to cancel it once you give notice, that’s on them.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Keep the trip. First, you don’t have the job yet. Second, your boss may want you to go anyway. When you give notice, ask what you should do about the trip.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Keep the trip. Background checks often take longer than one expects. If it does happen to be during your notice period, sort it out with your manager then.

  40. LinkedIn Anonymous*

    Starting a new job can be really lonely. I started two months ago, and while I have no desire to return to the dumpster fire of my old job, I miss some of the relationships I had. I haven’t found my people yet, and I don’t yet have a routine in my very small for now workload and I’m just bored and alone.

    1. MouseMouseMouse*

      If you have WFH days, could you fill the empty time with household-type chores? The kind of errands that don’t feel like you’re “slacking off” (if that matters to you). Or could you book virtual nice-to-meet-you chats with your teammates or other partners?

      If you’re in the office, can you choose your desk? If so, try picking a spot near the kitchen and/or the door, if you don’t mind the bustle. Hearing the foot traffic of other colleagues and their conversations may help with the loneliness, and personally I found that my colleagues recognized me more (and vice versa) when I sat near the door since we passed each other so often.

    2. toolate12*

      I feel you.

      I am hoping to switch jobs early in the new year and the part I’m dreading is how empty my life will be without my colleagues. I know that I should not have allowed my job to take up such a large portion of my life, but it’s easier said than done. Plus I kind of dread that early days work emptiness.

      I also felt that way this past year when over a dozen of my colleagues jumped ship and quit our org, including many of my favorite people, some of whom I was kind of trauma-bonded to LOL. My days turned SO gray.

      I know with time this will get better and so will your situation but in the meantime it is incredibly grinding. What I plan to do is spend more time with friends not related to my work and figure out ways to cultivate new work connections (but not let any new work friends in *too* close, if I can help it).

    3. I’ll Take My Talents Elsewhere*

      Yeah, it really can be. Two jobs ago I LOVED my coworkers, I’m actually still very good friends with several. I left because my position wasn’t going anywhere and I don’t regret it, but I miss having that. I have some lovely coworkers now, but it’s a much more siloed company.
      I took the initiative to have “ coffee calls” with a couple people I clicked with (we’re remote), so that’s been good.
      Maybe see if there are some groups around your area that share your interests? Or even remote groups.

  41. Second Breakfast*

    Resume question time!

    Should I list part-time freelance work along with my work history, or should it have its own section? During my time as a SAHM, I started freelance copywriting on a very part-time basis, mostly to keep myself sane. I’ve been including it along with my other work experience (mostly to fill some of my six-year employment gap), but I worry that it comes across as disingenuous.

    Similarly, I’m trying to decide if I should list substitute teaching on the resume. I’ve been subbing in my old district for the past six months to help pay the bills. (I was a high school teacher before my daughter was born). On the one hand, it shows some recent employment, and some of my references from the district might mention my subbing. On the other hand, it’s a step down career-wise, and I can’t exactly list accomplishments. I am also trying to find a job outside of education, and more work in a school doesn’t exactly help my case.

    Thanks for any input you can give. My job hunt is taking so much longer than I thought it would! Even the entry-level positions I’m applying for keep rejecting me, and it’s so demoralizing. This community has been such a great source of guidance throughout the process.

    1. Dita*

      I think it’s fair to list the copywriting alongside other work experience, particularly if it’s more relevant to the positions you’re applying for. And I’d include the substitute teaching, especially since without it, there’s a gap to explain that isn’t even a gap in reality. Even though you’re hoping to get out of education, I feel like substitute teaching takes a lot of adaptability and problem-solving that you’d bring to other positions, so try to frame it in those terms. Good luck!

      1. Hlao-roo*

        I agree with this. One thing you can do is break your resume into “Relevant Experience” (or “[Field Name] Experience”) and “Other Experience” sections. Assuming the copy-writing is relevant to the jobs you’re applying for, your resume could look something like this:

        Relevant Experience
        Freelance Copyediting, 2019-Present
        *accomplishment
        *accomplishment

        Oatmeal Taster, Porridge Emporium, 2012-2018
        *accomplishment
        *accomplishment

        Other Experience
        Substitute Teacher, Anytown School District, 2022-Present
        *accomplishment
        *accomplishment

    2. Whomst*

      Depends exactly on the sorts of jobs you’re applying to whether I’d list these or not, but for most circumstances I’d lean towards “yes.” Even if they aren’t showing accomplishments, they’re showing that you’ve kept your foot in the door of the workforce and professionalism and workplace manners are things that you haven’t forgotten how to do.

    3. ChronologicalIsSafer*

      straight chronological, but be clear about what’s employment vs contracting vs freelancing. I’ve experimented with other options and asked a whole bunch of folks about preferences and people still expect chronological order of your work/life to be handed to them.

    4. Kay*

      Seconding the relevance part on whether or not you want to include substitute teaching. You could also list it alongside your old position a la “Teacher, Fantasmo District 1990-2000, Substitute Teacher – 2024”. Would you rather talk about your freelance work and make that the focus – because that is easy to do, or are you okay with the “during the last 6 years I’ve done a mix of part time work including being asked to return to my previous employer to do X”?

      You have to be comfortable selling yourself, so I would go with whatever you feel you can do best – though I would encourage you not to sell yourself short. That “disingenuous” comment leads me to believe you might need to practice being confident about your accomplishments.

    5. Red Flags Everywhere*

      I listed both freelance and subbing and the freelance work was how I met the minimum years of work experience at one point. I did have to walk HR through my actual average hours (stupid, but whatever works, right?) and do the math for them. It definitely looks better to have some work time listed, and managing even a small contract workload gives you a strong translatable skillset.

  42. BRR*

    Any tips for dealing with a really dry workplace when you work in a cube farm? I bought a small desktop humidifier but it does not help. I’m thinking if I buy a bigger humidifier, it won’t be effective since my work area has no walls to contain the moisture. Has a bigger humidifier worked for anybody? Or has anybody discovered anything else that helps with dry office air?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is the issue lungs/sinus or is it dry skin?

      I’ve dealt with dry skin by using the cow cream moisturizer (aka bag balm aka udderly smooth) 2-3 times a day. I get really bad dry skin on my lower legs so I’m careful about my socks, including not using too much detergent and doing an extra rinse cycle if necessary.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I feel your pain because I’m in the same boat. For me, the biggest things are that I get exceptionally dry nasal passages and I’m constantly thirsty, so I just drink a lot of water and use a nasal spray every few hours to add a bit of moisture. I also have a humidity monitor so I can tell just how dry it is; somehow knowing the number makes me feel less like I’m losing my mind, and helps me figure out why my body is reacting the way it is (“I’m so thirsty! Oh, it’s only 21% humidity in here? I guess that’s why”).

    3. Ama*

      If it’s dry sinuses can you keep some nasal saline at your desk? I have chronic sinusitis and when I used to work 18 hour days running conferences in hotels (which keep their air very dry on purpose), nasal saline every few hours helped a lot (I would just step into the bathroom to use it).

  43. Funemployed not so fun*

    I am supposed to do an internal transfer to a new job with higher pay and responsibility. However, there’s apparently some HR delays in getting this new position approved and I have passed my start date (supposed to be 1/1/25). Not much information coming out from the new department. My current department says I can stay for now but they have also posted my job and are moving forward with replacing me. New department really needs me to join, but I have no idea what the hold up is and I’m worried staying in my current position won’t be an option for much longer! The new job also has a lot of work to do before a big initiative launch, and the longer it takes to move me into the role, the more difficult the time line becomes. I’ve emailed my new boss and asked him to escalate this (after he offered to in a meeting) but instead he keeps passing me off to his admin. I’m getting stressed, any advice on how to make the seriousness of this clear? Note: I have been job searching, but I’d need to relocate for any position outside my company and I’d rather not uproot my life if I don’t have to.

    1. Ostrich Herder*

      Have you gotten much back from his admin? Are you getting the sense that the admin won’t be able to help with the process, or is it just the principle of your future boss not handling it himself?

      I ask because I know executives where talking to the admin would actually be MORE efficient than talking to the exec themself – the admin would just drop everything that needed to be done into their exec’s schedule and to-do lists, and then it would get done. That’s not every situation, but I’m hoping it’s yours!

      More generally, though, I would say the first step is making sure everyone involved – your future boss and his admin in particular – know your current department is hiring to replace you and you’re concerned about being able to get started on the big initiative in time to make it successful. You may have said things to this effect already, but I’d take a look back and see if you’ve done what Alison calls “softening” the message. You don’t need to be rude, but if you haven’t called a spade a spade yet, start there. I also wonder if your current boss could help at all? Would they be in a position to push your future boss a little?

      Best of luck, no matter what, I have my fingers crossed for you!

      1. Funemployed not so fun*

        you make a great point about the effectiveness of admins, unfortunately she apparently does not have the authority to push this through. I’m told HR is the hold up and they’re not budging for her or my new boss, which is why I want it escalated. I’m getting firmer in my messaging but I do worry about alienating my new boss before I even begin (same with going above his head). Any tips for language to use? I’ve explicitly said my current role has been posted and that I want this escalated.

        1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

          Do you have a name of someone in HR that you can ask what the hold up is? If it’s a reference not responding, then you can offer to find another reference.

    2. Llellayena*

      You’ve emailed, but is it an option to just show up at the guy’s desk and ask them to escalate it right there while you’re waiting? Or can YOU approach HR in the same way? Sometimes “email the admin” means the urgency doesn’t translate through the office game of telephone. It’s harder to ignore the annoyed and anxious person in front of your nose.

  44. Yes And*

    I run the budgeting process for my company. The company has two co-equal senior executives; I report to one of them.

    One department head, “Petra” (we’re equal on the org chart), creates her own project budgets (which is great – they’re incredibly detailed and require industry-specific knowledge, of which I have some, but not nearly as much as Petra). The thing is, she always winds up coming under budget, by anywhere from 2% to 10%. On every. Single. Project. Every. Single. Year. To me, this suggests someone is padding their budgets. But everyone else at the company (including her boss, not the same one I report to) regards Petra as a miracle worker, and praises her to the rooftops every time she comes in under her own budget… again. Up until now, I’ve kept my mouth shut, because she has enormous political capital, and frankly, it makes me look good as well to report mid-year expense savings.

    But now we’re budgeting for next year, and facing a jawdropping deficit, which I’m trying to squeeze any way I can. While discussing the situation with my boss, he made a dry remark (like, Death Valley dry) about wanting to get Petra’s department budgets down. Encouraged by his tone, I took a breath, girded my loins, and shared my budget-padding theory. Friends, he agreed so readily and forcefully, I’m pretty sure he’d just been waiting for someone else to say it first.

    So my question is… now what? I don’t have the authority or, again, the political capital to tell Petra to cut her budgets, and she has gotten very prickly about my past attempts to offer my services in collaborating with her on it. Is this just something my boss is going to have to take up with her boss? If so, how do I make that happen?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So is Petra doing something wrong, or is she just making sure she has contingency funds in case a project risk crops up? I think the answer to “who talks to Petra how” depends on that.

      1. Yes And*

        Petra is allocating resources to her projects that history suggests they aren’t going to need. Is that “doing something wrong”? I think it would be an overstatement to call it unethical, but in a time of resource scarcity, it makes it even harder to plan for the overall company’s financial path (which is my job).

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Yeah – ‘wrong’ can have a lot of meanings, and I think somebody has to get more details. Maybe she’s using an outdated process. Maybe she’s not including volume discounts on parts and materials, or doesn’t realize that you get a few percent back from some vendors if you pay early (which is a thing that accounts payable does without telling her). Maybe she’s just more risk averse than she needs to be.

          You used the word ‘padding’, and I’m thinking there might be more to it than that. Of course, it might be hard to figure out, given that she’s got a good reputation and that she has a lot more domain knowledge. But somebody can certainly start with “Petra, we are really cost constrained during the upcoming year; given that you consistently come in under budget, can you [lop 5% off across the board, reduce your risk margin, etc]”

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      So you’re in the org chart at the same level as Petra but you assemble the budget info for all departments? I don’t think you have the standing to tell Petra her department needs to reduce their budget, it would have to come from someone above her in the chart.

    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      Everyone knows what she’s doing. Nevertheless, go through the motions of cutting her budget, understanding her when she acts upset (and it may not be an act, because a former job probably trained her to do this with budgets, and she may be making legitimate efforts to cut costs!), and go on with your week. This is the song and dance that is natural in parts of corporate America!

    4. Rondeaux*

      To me this is an example of “don’t hate the player, hate the game”

      Your company has shown that coming in under budget is what matters, based on Petra’s political capital as you mention. Plus, someone above Petra has been approving her budgets for however many years.

      She may be padding but it doesn’t sound like it’s your job anyway – it’s got to come from above.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      In terms of what you should do re: telling Petra what to do: do nothing. You don’t have the political capital or the authority to tell her what to do.

      But I find it weird that you’re jumping straight to an assumption of budget-padding without actually analyzing why and where she’s coming in under budget. If you’ve already done this analysis and just not mentioned it here, then carry on.

      If you haven’t though, it’s time to pull up her budgets and see what’s going on. Where is she coming in under budget? Is it the same place each year? Different places? Surely she’s presenting you with a budget by category – labor & materials (insert industry-appropriate breakdown here), and just as surely you have some sort of track record of what expenses the department had. How does it compare? Is someone approving her budgets? Are they growing each year/each project?

      And I have to say – if that extra 2-6% is “emergency funds we budgeted that we ended up not having to dip into”, that’s not padding and it’s not necessarily inappropriate.

      Go back, get the data of what’s going on, analyze it, give that to your boss.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Your company is doing you a disservice here by putting you in the position that you have to find places budgets can be squeeze, but don’t have the authority to require Petra reduce her ask or reduce it yourself. However someone in the company must have that authority, presumably her budget “rolls up” into a higher-level one that covers her area plus others. I would talk to whoever has given you the budget-squeezing task and ask whether they want you to handle it yourself with Petra’s boss or whether you are escalating it to them to handle.

      I can understand the frustration here – padding (or whatever the reason is) introduces opportunity cost, because that 5% or so on average is money that won’t be allocated to spend elsewhere, so is now under-utilised. The insidious thing about opportunity cost is that it’s often more risky than you expect, as it’s hard or impossible to quantify. Petra needs to start looking at the company more holistically instead of her little empire.

  45. lookingforperspective*

    Has anyone written a LinkedIn recommendation for their spouse? My spouse has been self-employed/their own business for more than a decade and is now considering entering the workforce or getting a contract position. They have asked me to write a LinkedIn recommendation for them.

    Their argument is that I know their skills better than most. Except I don’t. They talk about the work they are doing, both related to their business and R&D projects. But I have not actually worked with them on these projects, nor do I have a clear understanding of the work they do, since it is not my field. I feel like I’m overthinking this since, as I know part of LinkedIn is knowing how to work the system, but it still feels weird.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I think its better to have no recommendations than have one from a spouse who never worked with you. None reads like ok maybe they didn’t think this section was worth doing. From a spouse whose never worked with you, reads like you couldn’t find anyone to recommend you.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        Seconding this. If I were looking to hire a freelancer and the ONLY recommendation they had was from their spouse, that would be a bigger red flag than no recommendations at all. No recommendations could mean they don’t use LinkedIn, but having just a recommendation from a spouse would definitely indicate bad judgement to me, and make me wonder if their judgement was off in other areas, too.

      2. Tio*

        +1. I would roll my eyes at a spousal recommendation, if I ever looked at LinkedIn recs -which, honestly, I don’t, and I don’t think most hiring managers do anyway. so it’s either a negative or a waste of time.

    2. Cordelia*

      If you were looking at LinkedIn, how much weight would you put on a recommendation written by someone’s spouse, who has not worked with them and doesn’t understand their field? I wouldn’t put any, and in fact it would make me think more negatively of them for thinking this was a sensible idea.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Don’t do it.

      Your spouse should contact some of their old customers to write the recommendations.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      It’s inappropriate for you to give him a recommendation for all the reasons people have mentioned. You didn’t work with him or for him, and he was never an employee of yours. You don’t have any metrics against which to measure how good he is at his job. What does he want you to say “Sounds great in client meetings on the one-sided calls I’ve accidentally overheard?”

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      From what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced, LinkedIn recommendations don’t really offer any value. I think you’re better off not writing one A. because you haven’t worked professionally with your partner, and even if you had you are inherently biased because you’re their spouse so that recommendation won’t carry any weight, and B. even a solid reference probably won’t do any good being on LinkedIn, but there’s the chance a biased one might work against them. It kinda shows meh judgement to have a spouse recommend you in an official capacity, especially for a field they have no experience in.

      It’s right up there with getting a recommendation from a parent. If someone said “my mom says I’m great!” would that make you want to hire them? Your spouse is much better off getting recommendations from clients or other people they’ve worked with.