I accidentally peed on a fabric chair at work, why have policies that aren’t enforced, and more by Alison Green on February 3, 2025 It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go… 1. I accidentally peed on a fabric chair at work I’m close to tears writing this. I was drinking some water at my desk and some of it went down the wrong tube, which led to a coughing fit. I coughed so hard that I peed. This is the first time this has ever happened and I’m mortified. Worse still, it happed on a specially ordered orthopedic chair with a cloth seat. And yes, the urine soak through. What do I do?!? I’m afraid if I tell my manger they’ll be horrified and wonder how I could possibly be incontinent. I don’t want to be the coworker who peed on the chair. Will I totally ruin my professional image? As much as I just want to not tell anyone I don’t think the chair is salvageable and it stinks of urine now. Someone is bound to notice. Do I have to change my name and live life as a hermit? Help! You do not have to change your name and live as a hermit! You are a normal human with a normal human body, and normal human bodies sometimes do weird things. You are far from the only person who has had this happen. (Here are some other letters with similar stories if it helps!) Anyone who would hold this against you is a jerk; most people will just be sympathetic. (In fact, it’s entirely possible your manager or whoever you end up talking to about it will have had something similar happen to themselves at some point.) Talk to the person who’s in charge of ordering furniture and say this: “I had a medical incident that unfortunately ruined the cloth seat of my chair, and I need to order a new one. What’s the process for doing that?” 2. Why have policies that aren’t enforced? Having seen this in real life and reading about it frequently in your column, I’m curious: from a manager’s point of view, what’s the purpose of policies that aren’t enforced and when there’s no intent to enforce them? Why have these policies at all? Obviously sometimes policies are made at a high level that’s detached from everyday operations, and managers don’t care about them, and no one will really notice they’re not enforced. But in situations where managers do have meaningful authority, what’s this all about? This could be dress codes, WFH vs working in the office, timeliness or absenteeism, or any kinds of procedures — situations where there’s a definite rule, something a manager says must or must not be done, but they openly ignore when the rules aren’t followed or refuse to enforce them. Affected underlings sometimes have cynical interpretations of what’s going on here, but I’m curious what the people with authority think they’re doing. There’s a bunch of explanations. Sometimes the policy was made by someone other than the manager and they don’t agree with it, or don’t think it’s a big enough deal to enforce (and may think it’s counter to more important goals, like treating good employees well). Sometimes the policy sounded right when it was made but has turned out not to be a big enough deal for anyone to bother enforcing it, and no one has gone back to revisit it. Sometimes they really should be enforcing it, but the manager is too wimpy or too negligent (those are the same thing, really) to do it. Sometimes the policy wasn’t thought out well enough and so it doesn’t contain the nuance that the manager has in their head — for example, a manager might think “I need people to do X except in situations Y or Z” but they don’t bother to call out Y or Z as exceptions in the policy, so it looks like the policy is just going unenforced (or worse, being inconsistently enforced), whereas if they’d written the policy better their intent would have been clear. And sometimes there’s more of a cumulative aspect to it — if you break the policy once or twice, it’s not a big deal, but if you’re breaking it all the time it’ll be more of a problem and worth addressing. Related: how strictly should managers enforce company policies? 3. My manager’s brain injury is causing problems on our team My supervisor had a traumatic brain injury 11 months ago (workman’s comp). She has gotten treatment (sort of); she is very religious and delayed treatment based on her religious beliefs. After nearly a year, she is still out a lot, has memory issues, is late, is irritable, works remotely a lot, and has accommodations that — at least to our staff — are mysterious and undefined. Early on I stepped up, worked extra, helped out and went the extra mile. We had been friends before working together. Then about six months ago, she bit my head off, told me I had overstepped, and told me to stay in my lane. Fine — I went back to working my actual job and minding my own business. But she is clearly not okay. Now she flip flops between “I feel like we are estranged friends” and asking weird things like wanting to give me her password for a software program, which is strictly prohibited by institution policy. I am at my wits’ end. This is above your pay grade to solve! Please talk to HR about what’s going on. Not to get your manager in trouble, but because these are problems that you can’t handle on your own, and someone above you needs to know what’s going on so they can step in and help (which could include coming up with more effective accommodations, connecting her with different support, changing the way your team is managed, or all sorts of other things). 4. Technology stipend purchases — my property or the company’s? Two years ago I accepted a job that advertised, under the “Compensation and Perks” section of the job posting and official job description, a $1,500 technology stipend. In our negotiation emails, the owner of the firm said that the salary offer plus my professional development budget plus this technology budget “pushes you over (desired salary) for the year, with lots of room for upward mobility. Plus when you earn X certification, you’ll be eligible for a $5,000 raise.” I assumed — based on this correspondence and my spouse’s previous experiences with technology stipends — that I would have a budget of $1,500 to spend on whatever I wanted for tech for my home office, and that it would be mine to keep. There was no mention of returning the purchases at any point. And I did spend it on whatever I wanted (no instructions or guidance provided by the employer), which was a laptop, monitor, ergonomic keyboard and mouse, and some other smaller things specific to my home office. I submitted receipts for reimbursement. Fast forward to last month, when I gave notice. The owner of the firm was very upset. He said many inappropriate and rude things to me, but what he did not say then, during my exit interview, or on my last day, was anything at all about returning the items I’d purchased two years earlier with this stipend. And I didn’t think anything of it, because I was under the impression that this stipend had been compensation. My final paycheck had an error in it that shorted me about $150. It was a mistake due to negligence, not anything malicious, so after trying to resolve it with the payroll company directly, I reached out to my former employer because apparently only he can remedy the mistake. A month later, I checked back in to ask if he’d seen my email, and he replied quickly to say that he wants me to mail him my laptop and monitor, and then once he receives it he’ll Venmo me (?!) the mistakenly withheld wages plus the shipping costs. I don’t even know how to reply. It seems retaliatory for him to be asking for this now (why didn’t he mention it literally at any point earlier?) and it doesn’t match my understanding of the stipend’s terms (which of course aren’t written down anywhere). Not to mention that Venmo’ing me seems like a weird thing to do — the $150 is supposed to be taxable income. What do you think? Is it worth even pointing out to him that he’d offered the stipend to me as part of my compensation package? Would it be egregious to tell him that I’m unwilling to handle the packaging and front the postage costs myself, but if he sends me packaging with prepaid labels I’ll send the items back? Some companies with technology stipends do require the items to be returned when you leave, but they clearly spell that out so you know. I suspect that is not how your manager intended it since if the plan was for you to return the items all along, it wouldn’t have made any sense to include it in “pushing your salary over $X” (just like you don’t include the cost of other work-provided equipment in your salary calculations). Plus he didn’t say anything about returning it until you asked him to remedy the payroll error and when he was already upset about you leaving. You could reply to him, “My understanding from our negotiations when I was hired was that the stipend was part of my compensation, and there was no discussion of those items being returned. If you documented something different, I am happy to take a look at it (although would then ask that you prepay for the shipping back so that I’m not covering that myself). Meanwhile, for the payroll error, I don’t think we can Venmo it — it needs to be through payroll so that taxes are taken out correctly and so the state has a record of it. Thanks for handling it, I appreciate it.” You might also look up your state’s law on final pay and when it’s due and what the penalties are if it’s late, just so you have that in your pocket if you need it. (Google the name of your state and “final paycheck law” with no quotes.) 5. What state do I file for unemployment in? Federal employee here. I live in State A and work in State B. If/when the axe falls, do I apply for unemployment benefits in State A, State B, or (for whatever reason) Washington, D.C.? You apply for unemployment in the state you worked in. You may also like:I wet my pants at my new jobnew hire keeps kneeling in front of meafter I asked for a raise, my boss told me I buy too much coffee { 319 comments }
RLC* February 3, 2025 at 12:20 am LW1: Recommend you talk to the furniture ordering person and/or your manager ASAP. Perhaps a professional upholstery cleaning service will be able to treat the chair to remove odor/stains, and for best results the cleaning should be done soon.
Successful Birthday Rememberer* February 3, 2025 at 11:04 am I will go against the grain and say that OP might not even need to say something! I have had a lot of pets and a child who wet the bed until puberty. Accidents happen. A good enzyme spray will work wonders (Nature’s Miracle has one. For odor, Ozium and Angry Orange work great). It can soak into the seat too – that’s okay. Spray it down really well at the end of the day and let it work and dry overnight. Maybe let it repeat a few times. Even if it needs to be professionally cleaned, that’s still okay. Things happen.
i like hound dogs* February 3, 2025 at 11:14 am That’s what I would do in this situation — douse it in Nature’s Miracle in secret, let it dry overnight. (I also have a kid and many pets who have peed on so many things in my house, lol.)
Resentful Oreos* February 3, 2025 at 11:41 am The Nature’s Miracle Advanced Formula for cats – it’s a foam in a spray can – is truly a miracle worker. If it can get out cat pee it can get out human pee. I gave a friend a can – she has no pets but she does have a grandchild – and it completely removed the evidence of human barf. Nature’s Miracle is great stuff! While the chair may need to be professionally cleaned, give Nature’s Miracle a try. Oh, and don’t be ashamed of your accident. Stuff happens, especially as you age and/or have born children, and coughing can cause accidents.
Salsa Your Face* February 3, 2025 at 1:33 pm This, plus a little attention from an upholstery cleaning device like the little green machine, will do wonders.
Sashaa* February 3, 2025 at 2:20 pm Yep I wouldn’t assume the chair needs replacing. Assuming this was a laugh-induced leak and not a complete loss of bladder control, a bit of a clean-up is probably all you need.
Leslie* February 3, 2025 at 10:50 pm apple cider vinegar does the same thing as Nature’s miracle and even better, have the chair cleaned too, don’t just cover up the smell
Joielle* February 3, 2025 at 11:23 am I have five cats and I swear by Resolve for removing urine spots, and Zero Odor for smell! I have removed a lot of cat pee from a lot of things this way.
DoctorOfTranslation* February 3, 2025 at 11:25 am Dear LW #1 – Life happens, please don’t be mortified! People will take their cues from you, so hold your head up and take from the many good suggestions here. I will personally recommend [Biokleen Bac-Out Carpet Stain and Odor Remover Spray Lime Essence — 32 fl oz ]. I find it in stock at our local Tar-zhay, and it WORKS on human urine on/in upholstery. Caring for aging relatives had me quickly looking for reliable, pleasant-smelling products that break down urine by ENZYMATIC activity. On-line testimonials led me straight to Bac-Out, and the rest is history. Even if your Facilities people say the chair is a write-off, you might be allowed to bring the chair home, revive it with Bac-Out, and have a good desk chair for a home office, just sayin’… And with that, I raise a cranberry-juice spritzer toast to you :-)
Reluctant Mezzo* February 3, 2025 at 7:56 pm We had small children throw up on things at the tax place. You can clean that chair with a fair number of products which take out the problem. Set it aside for a day or so after, it should be ok.
Smurfette* February 4, 2025 at 4:39 am Please don’t be mortified OP1. It has happened to lots of us. That said, I would also be pretty uncomfortable disclosing it. I’d probably try to clean it and use one of those magical smell-removing sprays, before I actually asked for it to be replaced. You can also get elasticated covers for office chairs, which would cover up any lingering marks on the fabric.
Christina* February 3, 2025 at 12:24 am LW#1: I know it’s hard to believe this now, but it will be okay! Years ago, my first week on the job when I was still training, my workplace had a blood drive. I had never given blood before but I was eager to help and to also be a team player so on my lunch break I went and donated blood in the van in the parking lot. Unfortunately, my blood pressure dropped too rapidly, I started going into shock (technically vasovagal reaction, but similar symptoms) and convulsing, and the next thing I remember is waking up on the ground having pissed my pants. I had taken the bus to work so I couldn’t even just leave. I had to call my roommate to bring clean clothes to me at work and just hid in the bathroom with piss pants until they got there. My co-workers were absolutely nothing but sympathetic and not a single person ever teased me about it or made me feel bad about it in any way, and I worked there two more years before moving on. Biological events happen! We’re humans with human bodies! Your employer will understand that. Solidarity!
Heidi* February 3, 2025 at 12:38 am I agree with this. When LW’s are predicting these terrible outcomes, like “people will be horrified and judge me forever for this,” I always wonder, “Is that what you would do if it were happening to someone else?” I’m guessing not. If this helps at all, my sister’s water broke while she was sitting in her office chair. They replaced it and no one said anything.
Ellie* February 3, 2025 at 1:09 am My breast leaked while I was at my desk, in an open plan office, when I was in my first week back from maternity leave. I work almost exclusively with male engineers who for the most part are not known for being tactful communicators. No one ever said a word about it, and they were all extremely kind as I re-found my feet. I promise you OP#1, unless you work with a bunch of psychopaths, no one is going to judge you for this.
Michigander* February 3, 2025 at 5:24 am I think a lot of the time we still have the mindset of what would have happened when we were young. Pee on your chair in middle school and you will inevitably be made fun of. Pee on your chair in college and eh, 50/50. Pee on your chair as an adult, most people have enough compassion and experience by that point to feel sympathetic and understanding.
Tenebrae* February 3, 2025 at 8:32 am Eh, I think it’s the mindset of being afraid of what will happen in middle school. Not a perfect equivalent but I had a heavy period in grade six and bled through my pants and onto my chair. My classmates were incredibly gracious about it. The day after, a couple of girls boasted about covering for me with the boys and other than that, it was never mentioned again.
But Of Course* February 3, 2025 at 1:03 pm When that happened to me in 7th grade, my classmates teased me about it for years. It’s not something that “could” happen in middle school, it’s something that didn’t happen to you, and popularity plays a big role in how middle school peers respond. As adults we tend to have more understanding and life experience, but I have to admit, the times I’ve had an accident as an adult have been marked by that memory.
Smurfette* February 4, 2025 at 4:56 am I remember this happening a few times when I was at school… to me and others. Generally people were surprisingly sensitive about it, and would get you a new pad / give you a jersey to wrap around your waist / help you clean up in the bathroom. I don’t remember anyone ever being bullied for it.
Marion Ravenwood* February 3, 2025 at 6:50 am I think that reframing these things as “what would you do if it was your friend/relative/coworker?” can be really helpful. My therapist used to ask me that when I would beat myself up about things or worry that people would blame me or think I was weak because I couldn’t handle something on my own or was worried about something, and it made a big difference to how I thought about myself in those sorts of situations. I think it could easily be applied to this – if this was a coworker chances are OP would not say anything and would probably be sympathetic (if they even noticed which I doubt).
Arrietty* February 3, 2025 at 5:15 am Yup, I’ve passed out and wet myself in public twice. Not fun, not cool, but I was the person most bothered by it by far. (In my case there was a medical issue.)
Seashell* February 3, 2025 at 7:10 am I’m more disturbed that you convulsed after a blood drive, and neither the people taking blood nor your co-workers thought to get you medical attention. Unless that was a recurring problem for you and they knew you were safe, that’s crazy.
Christina* February 3, 2025 at 3:40 pm haha In retrospect, I should have gone to the doctor, but once my blood pressure came back up, I felt okay, so I just carried on. I have never donated blood since, though! I’m too scared to try again.
Mouse named Anon* February 3, 2025 at 7:57 am Yupp, I am struggling right now with some heavy periods. A few months ago my husband had to run me up a change of clothes because of it! Also (I have had 3 kids) a few years ago, I laughed so hard I peed my pants at work. Lol. It happens more than you think. Especially to women!
KitKat* February 3, 2025 at 10:25 am This is what I was going to say… anyone you work with who has been through pregnancy has more likely than not peed themselves!
learnedthehardway* February 3, 2025 at 8:14 am OP#1 – you can likely salvage the chair on your own with an enzymatic cleaner. You can get them at pet stores or on Amazon. Drench the chair with it, and it will break down the urine so it is entirely denatured – ie. it will be broken down at the molecular level, so it won’t even be urine anymore. It also will not smell. I’ve used pet enzymatic cleaners for urine, vomit, blood – they work essentially by digesting the stain. They work not only for pets, but also for humans – saved a mattress my kiddo had otherwise destroyed in a bout of the flu.
Cat and dog fosterer* February 3, 2025 at 8:44 am I came to suggest the same. Enzymatic cleaners work so well!! Get one from a pet store and soak it into the seat. Don’t bother with spraying little squirts, really soak the chair, use at least as much liquid as was originally the problem. I have known people in rescue that saved a lot of furniture with these cleaners. It might change the color, that is a risk, but I can guarantee you the smell will disappear! If it doesn’t then use more. If the color changes then put a pillow cover on it. Good luck!
Scholarly Publisher* February 3, 2025 at 9:16 am I was also going to suggest this. I’ve used enzymatic cleaners on a mattress that was peed on by a cat and a sofa that was peed on by a kid; it works great. People leak. It happens to everyone at some point in their adult life. You’re fine.
TenTen* February 3, 2025 at 9:22 am Seconding (fourthing?) this suggestion. Enzymatic cleaners have saved my furniture from so many human- and pet-generated messes!
Cat and dog fosterer* February 3, 2025 at 9:35 am I noticed after I wrote my comment that the same suggestion was made in the next thread so it’s well past second and fourth :)
Gudrid The Well-Traveled* February 3, 2025 at 10:41 am Ok, yes it may be salvageable, but this chair is company property and they get to decide. OP can’t use this to get out of telling anyone. Urine is a body fluid and even if OP could make the chair as good as new, it still needs to be Facilities’ call.
Elizabeth West* February 3, 2025 at 8:44 am This! Once at an old job, we had a pregnant coworker who was sitting on the (cloth) chair in our boss’s cube, when her water broke. Yes, it ruined the chair. It was no biggie — they replaced it. It’s just a chair, and stuff happens.
TenTen* February 3, 2025 at 9:20 am Yes! Also, please don’t be too embarrassed, LW#1; incontinence is so, so much more common than most people realize. My workplace distributes free hygiene supplies to unhoused people who need them and incontinence pads are one of our most common requests! Peeing when you cough or laugh too hard is an incredibly common experience, and I get that it’s embarrassing to have it happen at work, but the thing itself is nothing to be ashamed of.
Contracts Killer* February 3, 2025 at 9:21 am I’m having flashbacks to my first week of taking insulin, squeezing my finger to release a drop of blood, and it SPURTING across my desk and all over my papers and office supplies. I was very lucky I was able to clean it all up but if it had hit my chair, I probably would have had to request a new one.
I NEED A Tea!* February 3, 2025 at 9:34 am LW #1 My mom used to say about embarrassing situations “you are not the first to do this and you won’t be the last”. You are in good company. It happens.
LifebeforeCorona* February 3, 2025 at 11:08 am I was in a meeting and didn’t want to take a bathroom break. The meeting finally ended and I stood up and peed myself. Lucky I was wearing darker pants. As soon as I felt myself let go I excused myself and went to the washroom. Paper towels were able to get most of it out. My desk was by itself so I stayed there for the last hour of the day and made it home ASAP. No one noticed because everyone was busy chatting. Since then I never try to hold myself.
FunkyMunky* February 3, 2025 at 12:26 am #1 – I’d low key pre-treat it with something like what people use at home on pet urine? at least to kill the smell (Enzymatic cleaner). hopefully no need to ask for a new chair, I wouldn’t be comfortable having that conversation either
Metal Gru* February 3, 2025 at 1:14 am This is my thought too, I’m not sure exactly what I would use but there are “cleaning influencer” forums etc with loads of resources that will have an answer. If it was LWs own chair at home rather than a company one they probably wouldn’t go straight to replacing it.
Ellephant* February 3, 2025 at 3:28 am The product “MyPetPeed” will make it like this never happened! Legit miracle product. I would check the label and spot test a small inconspicuous area first to make sure it doesn’t ruin the material, but I have used it pretty indiscriminately and never had an issue. It’s a hydrogen peroxide based product, but is somehow even more effective at disappearing anything organic without a trace.
Try Hydrogen Peroxide* February 3, 2025 at 4:01 am Yes, hydrogen peroxide works. The plain stuff you get at a drug store not only made the smell and stain disappear, it’s also a disinfectant. Worked like a charm for me on a mattress.
Mid* February 3, 2025 at 4:22 pm Peroxide is very likely going to bleach/lighten the color of fabric (assuming the office chair is black or dark grey fabric, which are the most common colors.)
Lacey* February 3, 2025 at 9:46 am Brilliant idea. All the people suggesting that this will not be a big deal are not functioning in the same work-space reality I’ve been living in. This is a real solution.
JMR* February 3, 2025 at 11:04 am I don’t understand this comment… No one’s suggesting it isn’t an embarrassing situation, or telling OP to just pretend it never happened and continue to use her pee-stained chair. We’re saying (1) people understand that human bodies are gross and unpredictable and will be sympathetic to OP, and (2) there are things that OP can do to try and clean the chair before having an unpleasant conversation with whoever orders the office furniture. Enzymatic cleaners like Nature’s Miracle are marketed for pet stains but will work on human stains as well.
Ellen N.* February 3, 2025 at 1:29 am My veterinarian recommended Anti Icky Poo. It is appreciably more effective than other pet waste cleaners I’ve used. https://www.mistermax.com/product-page/anti-icky-poo-unscented-gallon-size
TMarin* February 3, 2025 at 4:10 am I found this recipe on line. I’d stay late one night, or late Friday afternoon, and spray it and see what happens. But, to tag onto what others have said, it’s probably less of a deal than it has expanded to in your mind. Old urine stains In a bowl, mix 10 ounces of 3% hydrogen peroxide, 3 tablespoons of recently opened baking soda and two to three drops of dishwashing liquid. Mix until the baking soda is dissolved. Pour into a spray bottle. Pre-test the upholstery by spraying some cleaner in an inconspicuous place.
Marion Ravenwood* February 3, 2025 at 6:52 am As someone who owns an old lady cat who has a tendency to occasionally throw up on cushions/rugs etc (it is mostly being managed with medication but sometimes accidents happen), I may have to make some of this up to keep on hand!
a bright young reporter with a point of view* February 3, 2025 at 7:10 am I’ve tried the baking soda home remedy that you rub in and then neutralize with vinegar and it was not very effective. Admittedly I did not try peroxide. I ended up buying nature’s miracle and that worked. I’d also suggest a hot water extractor.
Seeking Second Childhood* February 3, 2025 at 7:22 am Nature’s Miracle is worth it’s weight in toddler mattresses.
Contracts Killer* February 3, 2025 at 9:23 am YES! And cover it with a warm (not hot!) damp cloth. The heat and wet will cause the enzymes that “eat” the stain to multiply. (Too hot and it will kill the enzymes). A carpet installer taught me this!
Ace in the Hole* February 3, 2025 at 1:09 pm To be a bit pedantic, enzymes won’t multiply because they aren’t alive. However, warmth will make them work faster! Heat speeds up chemical reactions, so the warmer it is the quicker enzymes work their magic… but too hot will permanently inactivate them (sort of like they melt).
RC* February 3, 2025 at 12:05 pm Side note, but can anyone speak specifically to the perfumes added to the various cleaners? We use Nature’s Miracle for cats (in part because way back when it was the first one who worked for cat pee) but several years ago they reformulated and the scent is SO STRONG and I’d be a bit hesitant to use it liberally in an enclosed office. Maybe/hopefully some of the others are less in-your-face about it? (I don’t know why they did that, even! The old smell was totally fine and not overwhelming!)
Azure Jane Lunatic* February 4, 2025 at 4:58 am Straight up white vinegar is my go-to for old urine. (Apple cider vinegar works the same, just smells better while it’s being applied. And if you’re using apple cider vinegar for routine cleaning, I recommend checking the prices at your local restaurant supply store.)
Cat and dog fosterer* February 3, 2025 at 9:39 am Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda will bleach the cloth, whereas Nature’s Miracle and other enzymatic cleaners won’t impact it as much (although they may change the color, but are less likely to do so). I would skip this recipe and go straight to something designed to break down the enzymes, especially because the seat will need to be soaked with the liquid (trust me, spraying a bit on won’t be sufficient). Your recipe is great for dogs sprayed by skunks, as I have used it that way several times.
knitted feet* February 3, 2025 at 4:15 am Yeah I’ve done this on a child’s mattress and it came out perfect. Enzymatic cleaner made for pet urine is good stuff!
Hypatia* February 3, 2025 at 5:36 am The Resolve version, Pet Expert stain and odor remover, works amazingly on upholstery and rugs , even for human accidents. It doesn’t affect the color either. I’ve also had success with hydrogen peroxide and baking soda, though that was on a wooden floor after a cat got stuck in a closet and pointedly let her displeasure be known.
Falling Diphthong* February 3, 2025 at 6:41 am Adding to the chorus that enzymatic cleaner doesn’t care whether a human or puppy peed on the mattress.
Heirloom Tomato Heiress* February 3, 2025 at 10:56 am My human puppy (aka a 14 month old) loves to pee the instant the diaper is off… and thanks to the daycare plague if I get a bad cough, it’s so hard I pee nearly every time. Thanks, baby… Not so much to soak a chair since I’m wearing fleece pj pants almost exclusively and expect it (so I go way before I need to to prevent leaks when I have a cold) but enough I change undies.
CityMouse* February 3, 2025 at 8:02 am I had a cat who peed on things and Enzymatic cleaner AND a layer of baking soda on top that you can vacuum off. That worked for the mattress my old man cat peed on.
MK* February 3, 2025 at 6:02 am Since this is office equipment, I think it needs to be professionally cleaned at least. I am not sure how long ago that happened and what has OP been doing in the meantime (use another chair, or some kind of cover?), but OP should use something to clean it temporarily that will kill the smell, and go to her boss to ask about the process of cleaning the chair, no need yo tell him exactly what caused the stain. Maybe it’s nit salvageable anyway, but that’s where I works start, not ask immediately for another chair.
Cuteness Central* February 3, 2025 at 6:13 am I was coming here to say this. I had a similar accident on my brand new chair at work and the enzyme cleaner for pet accidents I used worked perfectly. No shame. Life happens.
raincoaster* February 3, 2025 at 7:16 am As a pet-sitter I can confirm these really work. There are ones that break urine down on a cellular level.
Funko Pops Day* February 3, 2025 at 7:40 am I used an enzymatic cleaner on toddler messes and wound up with stains appearing again months later— apparently some cleaners are “magnetic “ (not actually but equivalent) and will attract and bind new dirt unless totally washed off when applied. All of which is to say, feel free to try, but it’s also fine to say it’s beyond a small spot treatment solution and just ask for the replacement.
NothingIsLittle* February 3, 2025 at 10:08 am Mentioned below, but using an upholstery cleaner (like Bissell’s Little Green) takes the enzyme cleaner right out. I have personally used this on a few types of fabric and haven’t had issues.
Funko Pops Day* February 3, 2025 at 12:46 pm Perhaps, but certainly not reasonable to expect OP to buy a cleaner machine for this purpose.
WillowSunstar* February 3, 2025 at 8:01 am Yeah, I would at least try cleaning it first. Can you come in a bit early or stay a few minutes late? At least then you wouldn’t feel like you were being watched. (This as a woman who has gotten periods unexpectedly at work.)
Mockingjay* February 3, 2025 at 8:47 am Nature’s Miracle Pet Stain and Odor Remover. It’s an enzyme cleaner. Available at Wally World, the Temple of Bezos, and lots of other places. I saved a mattress with this stuff. It also works on household stains. Clean the chair at the end of the day so it dries overnight. Follow the directions exactly. It make take a couple of applications.
Eli* February 3, 2025 at 9:16 am Yes, and there are tiny furniture steam cleaners that you could look into.
LA* February 3, 2025 at 9:32 am This! I have a spot cleaner (Bissell Little Green Machine) and it’s still using the pet stain cleaning solution (because we had a lot and that’s basically what small children are anyway). And it’s what I use on all the cloth chairs in my house… and carpets… and stairs….
NothingIsLittle* February 3, 2025 at 10:02 am My grandfather had Alzheimer’s which resulted in several accidents as it progressed. Enzyme cleaner works absolutely the same on human urine and completely fixes the smell! I have one of those upholstery cleaners, but your company’s janitorial team probably has one or could rent it. You almost certainly will not need to have the chair replaced!
Artemesia* February 3, 2025 at 10:58 am I thought I posted this last night but can’t find it. Anti Icky Poo is a great enzyme cleaner. Our elderly cat peed repeatedly on a brand new guest couch/bed and we didn’t catch it because we thought the cover was waterproof — NOT. I tried many products and none really worked until I tried this stuff. With several soakings and sprayings it totally took care of it. I would be embarrassed and try to take care of it myself this way. Maybe have a seat pad while sitting on it and soak the stain with enzyme cleaner. Cat pee is worse than human and it did save my very expensive guest bed.
coffee* February 3, 2025 at 12:26 am LW1, I really feel for you. You’re human and this kind of stuff happens to everyone! Before you talk to anyone, I would try using an enzyme cleaner, like the kind used to clean up pet urine. They’re specialised cleaners and can completely eliminate smells. I’m not sure where you live but I have seen them at pet stores and hardware stores. Don’t mix any other chemicals with it – just use the enzyme cleaner and follow the instructions. If you do it before you leave then you can leave it to sit overnight.
Regina Philange* February 3, 2025 at 12:28 am LW 1: this type of thing has happened to me enough times that I now have an entire desk drawer with extra stuff in it. I have a non descript tote bag stuffed info my desk drawer that contains: underwear, leggings, a t shirt, pads, baby wipes, and – this is the most ridiculous but important item – a couple pairs of depends. I also keep a cardigan at my desk for warmth but it also comes in handy if I need to cover up the spare t shirt that I’ve had to put on. now, if you do this, you will prob never have to use it. but I bet it’ll make you feel less worried about potential emergencies! I had pneumonia a while ago, and for like a month I was coughing and peeing at the same time, constantly. I also spill a lot so extra clothes are just practical.
Sleeve McQueen* February 3, 2025 at 1:08 am Two children later, I also worry about this stuff. Aside from having to stop dramatically and cross my legs if I am about to sneeze, I also find that wearing the light-range period underwear gives me a little bit more reassurance.
Lucy* February 3, 2025 at 1:18 am My gynaecologist taught me to stand up straight and rotate my upper body to the right before coughing or sneezing. This prevents the pelvic floor from pressing down on the bladder and isn’t as obvious a per- prevention strategy as crossing your legs. I can confirm it works.
knitted feet* February 3, 2025 at 4:16 am Oh good tip! I’m usually good until the third consecutive sneeze but after that all bets are off. This is useful to know.
learnedthehardway* February 3, 2025 at 8:17 am Thanks – I have pelvic floor weakness after cancer treatment. Nothing quite like going from being fully continent to completely incontinent in a matter of weeks. I had to relearn being continent, and now coughing or sneezing is the bane of my existence. I had realized the “keeping body straight” thing – but that’s hard to do when sitting. Hopefully the “rotating torso” will assist. It would make a tremendous difference to my quality of life.
Not on board* February 3, 2025 at 9:52 am This should be at the top! I’ve had a bad cough for weeks now (had an x-ray and ct scan so no pneumonia) and I’ve accidentally peed a little at least once a day. I’m going to implement this pronto.
Meg in VA* February 3, 2025 at 8:08 pm I’m so glad I read this tip! Long ago I saw some advice online that when you feel a cough or sneeze coming on, bend forward until your head and torso are parallel to the floor (or even lower, if you can) and you won’t leak when you sneeze or cough. This has worked for me 99% of the time but, obviously, it’s going to call attention to you at work or in public. Standing straight and rotating to the right will be much more discreet. Thanks for posting!
Smurfette* February 4, 2025 at 4:41 am Oh wow, thank you for this. After 3 pregnancies I also sometimes leak when I cough or sneeze :(
Colleen Whitley* February 3, 2025 at 2:36 am I recently had surgery to fix this issue as having given birth to 2 kids plus issues with stamina and activity while dealing with Covid related lung issues has caused a 20+ lb weight gain. It did take a year to see a pelvic floor specialist but she was wonderful and didn’t make me feel embarrassed at all during the exam, which of course triggered leaks. I was recommended surgery to implant a urethral support and what a difference! I can cough/sneeze without running to the toilet, I can hop off a stool without slowly lowering a foot down first, and I can join my teens in activities I had to decline before. I mention this as too often issues regarding women’s health isn’t talked about or is seen as shameful. Please, LW give yourself a hug and know that MANY humans have also had accidents of this nature. If anyone makes a fuss that is on them, not you.
Emmy Noether* February 3, 2025 at 3:17 am This is the public service announcement I always feel compelled to make when this topic comes up: pelvic floor reeducation is really helpful, and everyone should do it after childbirth (yes, also after a caesarian)! Check if your health insurance reimburses it as a preventative measure, or else I’m sure there are cheap or free resources to be found online (not as good as in person, but better than nothing). It’s much more sophisticated than “just” Kegels. You learn to recognize and control your pelvic muscles, learn how to gently strengthen them and not stress them. No sports than involve jumping or even running for at least 6 months after birth, and be careful after that. Sitting hunched over is bad. Sports that involve balance are good, as is horseback riding and belly dancing. Core strengthening (Pilates, Yoga) is good, but you have to do the exercises in a way that your core isn’t pushing against your pelvic floor. If you can find classes that specialize in new mothers, that’s good. You also learn how to mitigate the effect of a sneeze. When you feel it coming, straighten the torso to give the lungs room, lightly activate the pelvic floor to hold against the pressure. I know this sounds like one more of those “Optimize Your Life!” things that goddess knows mothers can do without. I’m not doing my daily exercises diligently either. But really just learning about it and knowing how to access those muscles (which were completely mysterious to me before) helps immensely. And knowing that incontinence is not a life sentence!
Four Lights* February 3, 2025 at 8:09 am Ditto. I went during pregnancy and fixed the peeing problem in a week.
Hanani* February 3, 2025 at 9:07 am Absolutely! I had pelvic floor therapy for a different reason, but the process of learning how to feel and do something different with those muscles is really something.
Chidi has a stomachache* February 3, 2025 at 9:19 am Seconding this. I saw one both during pregnancy and after the birth, and it helped tremendously. My pelvic floor therapist also recommended following Dr. Mae Hughes on instagram for more casual information.
lou* February 3, 2025 at 10:40 am I’ve never been pregnant but went to a pelvic physiotherapist when I developed an overactive bladder after a particularly bad UTI (went from a slight twinge to peeing blood within two hours — delightful). She was worth her weight in gold. I like to say that everyone with a pelvis should go for pelvic PT.
Not a Girl Boss* February 3, 2025 at 1:31 pm 100%. Never been pregnant but managed to develop pelvic floor symptoms anyway – according to my pelvic floor phsyical therapist, some women just carry stress in their pelvis and get muscle knots just like you would in your shoulders. Doing kegels would have made things worse. Within a month all my symptoms were resolved, now I just go back for the occasional tune up.
Michigander* February 3, 2025 at 5:21 am I’ve had two kids in the last four years. Now every time I get a cold I have to remember to wear extra protection because inevitably I will pee myself a little bit after a bad cough.
Artemesia* February 3, 2025 at 12:11 pm Those underpants designed to catch leaks also work well when it isn’t major. I wear one over my cotton pants if I have a cough or will be in a situation like travel where I might not be able to head for the head timely. It is a great peace of mind thing. They also work as backup for tampons.
Ace in the Hole* February 3, 2025 at 1:16 pm I always recommend keeping a spare set of clothes at work… it’s useful for so many situations. Personally, I started doing this after I got splattered with some nasty chemicals. I did NOT have extra clothes with me that day. So after showering, I had to walk home (a mile down busy main street!) in disposable tyvek coveralls. Just to illustrate how common this sort of thing is, I’ve loaned spare emergency clothes to coworkers at least five times for various reasons: unexpected period, shirt got caught on something and tore, slipped and fell in a mud puddle, bathroom accident, and realizing partway through a workday that trousers were not fully opaque!
Accidental Cough-Pee-er* February 4, 2025 at 10:54 pm Period panties. They’ve been a lifesaver for me and you can get some from Hanes for pretty cheap.
Honey cocoa* February 3, 2025 at 12:29 am LW1, yes, you might just need a new chair. But as someone whose dealt with animal, toddler and senior incontinece it may be worth trying an enzyme cleaner. If you can come in on a weekend morning, apply a bunch of enzyme cleaner and let it sit all weekend, it might be salvageable. And it might not. I’m so sorry this happened to you. We are all human and our bodies don’t cooperate sometimes. Take good care.
Artemesia* February 3, 2025 at 12:33 am Anti Icky Poo is very effective for these stains. I have tried them all after an elderly cat seriously soaked a new guest bed before I discovered it. I tried several enzyme cleaners and this is the one that actually worked. It took a few thorough soaks/sprays but it did work.
GammaGirl1908* February 3, 2025 at 2:27 am I worked with a cat behaviorist when I had a cat that was eliminating inappropriately, and she highly recommended Anti-Icky Poo. It is powerful enough that cats and dogs can no longer smell where they eliminated.
Penelope* February 3, 2025 at 12:35 am I’m in the same boat as LW5. The state I work in is notoriously chintzy with unemployment benefits. *sigh*
Lady Lessa* February 3, 2025 at 6:08 am I had to do the same thing, when I lived across a river from where I worked. The worst part was when I had to report to Missouri’s Employment office for an in-person thing. All it involved was signing into a computer that was in their lobby. What a waste.
Elizabeth West* February 3, 2025 at 8:58 am Ugh. I’ve had to do that every time I had UI. You have to log in on their onsite computer so it shows you showed up. The best office was near my mom’s place — they had actual humans working there. At least in Missouri you can get people on the phone, or you could in the past anyway. Here in Mass, they’re pretty generous with benefits, but if you need to ask a question, fuggedaboudit. I forced DTA (the agency that handles EBT) to call me by uploading a document entitled, “NOBODY ANSWERS THE PHONE AND I HAVE A QUESTION PLEASE REPLY.”
Dr. Rebecca* February 3, 2025 at 7:29 am God forbid the LW does have to apply in DC, as those penny pinching glassbowls will stonewall you until you give up, and if they do ever pick up the phone, they’ll pass you around until you, surprise, give up.
DC Resident* February 3, 2025 at 9:40 am I am a DC resident and have had great service/support from multiple DC agencies. The people at the paid family leave office made getting paid for leave during cancer treatments flat out easy. Related to the whole cancer thing, I let my professional license lapse for several months without even realizing it — I was able to get the license reissued within 4 business days. And heck, several years ago, when I went to the DMV to get my license transferred, the woman taking the photo looked at it, looked at me, and said “let’s just take that over again.” I’ll never know what horrific photo I could be looking at every time I open my wallet. DC UI is about to get absolutely inundated with UI applications and demands for city services, while contending with a federal executive branch that will be impeding it in every what that they can. Throwing shade is not going to be helpful to people who need UI nor to the people who work in the program. It is unlikely to be smooth, nor will anyone be truly happy. But let’s hope that folks get what support they can to sustain themselves during an impossibly difficult, entirely unnecessary, manufactured societal cataclysm.
Dr. Rebecca* February 3, 2025 at 11:14 am I’m not “throwing shade,” I’m saying what happened to me. I sued them, and won, because of their horrific treatment, shoddy attention to detail, and careless attitude toward the people they’re meant to serve.
phira* February 3, 2025 at 12:45 am LW1, I haven’t had this specific problem at work, but I have IBD and have had very obvious accidents while literally in the middle of teaching. Like, mid-sentence. It’s mortifying but you will be okay, I promise! I honestly don’t even think about any of my accidents anymore unless LWs write in with similar issues, and then I chime in to let them know they’re not alone.
Marion Ravenwood* February 3, 2025 at 6:55 am That’s just reminded me I once had an IBS attack in the middle of a check-in with my boss in a previous job. Thankfully I was WFH so I could end the call quickly and then reschedule for after I’d cleaned up, but I felt so mortified at the time. She was lovely about it though and just wanted to make sure I was OK!
PDB* February 3, 2025 at 12:47 am LW5:If you work in one state and live in another, you claim unemployment in the state you live in. I did it once. It’s called an interstate claim and it’s a PITA.
Myrin* February 3, 2025 at 1:02 am Is there a “can” missing here before “claim”, meaning you can also claim unemployment where you live if you so choose, but it’s a hassle? Because if not, that’s exactly the opposite of what Alison’s saying, so which one is it?
RCB* February 3, 2025 at 3:12 am That’s why you don’t file where you live, file where you work. I live and work in different states and filed in the state where I worked, not lived. They have your records so it’s much quicker, if you file where you live then it is the pain like you found it to be.
Whoosie whatsie* February 3, 2025 at 4:24 am I read that wrong and was imagining a scenario where you go into the unemployment office to file a “PITA claim”.
Try Hydrogen Peroxide* February 3, 2025 at 12:54 am #1–Hydrogen peroxide not only removes body fluid odors but is a disinfectant. It might do the trick without having to tell anyone or ordering a new chair. I have used it directly without diluting it on a mattress and it worked great. It dried quickly and just to be extra safe, I did a second treatment a little while later. It was perfect. If you look online there are various instructions. Hydrogen peroxide can discolor delicate fabrics, but that’s unlikely for an office chair. You can try it out first in an inconspicuous spot if that’s a concern.
D* February 3, 2025 at 1:42 pm Also, enzymatic cleaners designed for pets. They work wonders on cat urine; I imagine they’ll help with the human variety, too.
Suze* February 3, 2025 at 1:08 am Question #2. In my experience the most common reason for this is to give power to managers an excuse to get rid of problematic employees if needed. Normally the manager doesn’t enforce pesky rules to submit every receipt for every expense or be in the office 8 hours a day 4 days a week etc, but if they want to get rid of somebody they can enforce every little rule and make their lives unbearable until they quit.
Metal Gru* February 3, 2025 at 1:19 am As a manager there are lots of things I don’t enforce but could if I chose to or needed to. Management discretion. It does make me wonder though, because I talk to other managers who have different styles and are more sticklers for the rules about things like lateness (where it doesn’t have an actual impact) and I start thinking is it “fair” that different groups of people managed by different people get held to different standards. I don’t know the answer to that one but if this ever comes up, of course I would say this is due to my decisions, rather than throw them under the bus.
linger* February 3, 2025 at 3:45 am It’s not fair to employees when they are transferred under a manager who enforces the rules differently. Under those conditions it really should be each manager’s responsibility to spell out to their reports exactly where they are and aren’t enforcing discretionary rules, and also to be clear to the employee where other managers may treat those rules differently. Two particular caveats, though: 1. Rules that exist to promote worker safety should be enforced, with minimal discretion given to individual managers. 2. Managers should be consistent, and provide both advance warning and justification for any change in enforcement. Indulging in some strategy of suddenly shifting to enforce said rules on certain employees (e.g. to force them out) is dishonest and disrespectful.
Kisa* February 3, 2025 at 5:36 am Well, I agree with linger; all emplyees deserve to know the rules they are expected to follow, as clearly as possible. As in “the corporate standard is X, in my team we do Y, because Z”. But i think its important that managers have some autonomy to dictate how they enforce the rules. Especially in big companies with various responsibilities and occupations, no amount of wording can make the rules apply to all possible teams and individual situations. And a team manager, or whoever is in charge of individual processes should be able to use some consideration. The goal should be that the processes run smoothly and employees experience equity.
Jen* February 3, 2025 at 7:01 am “As in ‘the corporate standard is X, in my team we do Y, because Z’.” Yes, and this doesn’t even have to be about justifying things – “we do Y because Z” can make Y easier to remember!
MigraineMonth* February 3, 2025 at 12:02 pm I agree that there needs to be some level of manager discretion, especially when there are teams/units that don’t really match the rest of the company. I’ve seen it time and again where a new company-wide mandate comes down that just doesn’t make any sense for our team, and trying to enforce it would be either an exercise in frustration or malicious compliance. => The new WFH initiative doesn’t really work for the culinary/catering team => Helpdesk shouldn’t be required to attend a week of trainings on the newest sales techniques => Ending the workday at 3pm on Fridays in the summer is not actually a perk if you’re paid hourly
DJ Abbott* February 3, 2025 at 7:12 am “Indulging in some strategy of suddenly shifting to enforce said rules on certain employees (e.g. to force them out) is dishonest and disrespectful.” And obvious. If this was being done to me, I would feel scapegoated. If I was watching it happen to someone else, I would be wondering if I’m next. Either way it’s demoralizing, and I would be looking to leave.
Meg in VA* February 3, 2025 at 8:29 pm About safety rules: I worked in public schools for a long time, and one year there was a new item in the employee handbook: no standing on chairs to reach or hang anything. Instead, teachers were supposed to see the custodian and ask to borrow the ladder. You can imagine how well that was obeyed and enforced/s. My library assistant and I figured someone had fallen and gotten injured the previous year, and it probably cost the district some money. The next year, the rule was expanded to say that anyone who saw a coworker standing on a chair needed to report it to an administrator, and if they failed to, they’d be written up, too. We figured the higher-ups didn’t have enough time or enough willingness to challenge such an ingrained habit, and hoped making peers serve as the enforcers would save them from liability if anyone fell.
Not me* February 3, 2025 at 7:40 am This kind of rule creation/enforcement doesn’t always work out that way, though. I know someone who was fired for not following an office rule, but got that firing overruled by submitting pictures of the board of other staff, including the manager who fired him, not following the same rule he was fired for, and his firing was overturned. Unfortunately, he remains a problem employee and now nobody is willing to try to fire him for legitimate reasons since the prior illegitimate attempt didn’t work.
KitKat* February 3, 2025 at 10:28 am I would think this would be a huge red flag for a discrimination lawsuit, no? i.e. there’s a rule that’s not generally enforced, it’s used as justification for firing one person, that person is the only person (or even one of a few people) with X protected characteristic. It’s at least a risk management takes with selective enforcement like you’re describing.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:45 am Exactly. Every employment lawyer that I follow keeps on repeating a version of this. Even (maybe even especially) the employ*er* side lawyers. It’s kind of “staying out of court 101”.
hbc* February 3, 2025 at 8:21 am I really don’t think anyone is creating rules and ignoring them to have the latitude later to enforce them oppressively. I think the motive works in the opposite direction–if an otherwise good employee has something happen and works from home twice this week, is it really worth starting a progressive discipline process and potentially pushing one of the best workers out the door? Of course, some vindictive managers will lean on all those rules to force someone out. But in my experience, the worst employees are often the ones taking advantage of the flexible enforcement and going against the spirit of the policy. “Oh, you let her wear conservative black sneakers instead of dress shoes on days she claims to have foot pain, but you’re not letting me wear my neon Crocs? So unfair!”
Smithy* February 3, 2025 at 8:56 am Yes. I do think that this often feels this way when you are on the receiving end of those rules enforced more strictly. That it is being done for punitive reasons – either collectively or individually – but I don’t find it to be a 100% reality. I used to work at a place that had a number of universally enforced rules for everyone and the end result was that it really didn’t make for an equitable experience. Our core in-office hours were 9-4, with an arrival time of 8-9am, and departure time of 4-5pm. We were a legal nonprofit, and given the nature/security of the legal work – when I was there – all work needed to be done in the office and you needed to have security code access to be in the office before 8am, or after 5pm (though technically it was more when the last code access person left). For the most part, this had most people working 40 hour weeks, and if you did have a week with extra hours – you could make it up the next week working 9-4. It was enough balance for most employees. I had a nonlegal job, and it included going to evening events. Because I also had to be in the office by 9, but then occasionally would be at an event in the next town over – my working day might not end until 10pm. Eventually the person who processed our payroll felt so bad for me, he gave me tips on how to claw back some of that time. But it was a real eye opener in the difference between equal application and equitable application of policies.
My Boss is Dumber than Yours* February 3, 2025 at 9:46 am “I don’t think anyone is creating rules and ignoring them to have the latitude later to enforce them oppressively” Tell me you don’t pay attention to racial issues in the (American) legal system without telling me…
TeaAndToast* February 3, 2025 at 10:19 am I agree that the American legal system does that but it’s pretty clear that hbc was talking about reasonable-ish workplaces
My Boss is Dumber than Yours* February 3, 2025 at 10:44 am “As long as everyone acts reasonably and doesn’t abuse the system, there’s nothing to worry about” is literally how systemic oppression starts.
Leenie* February 3, 2025 at 11:34 am Comparing systemic oppression to “Sheila gets some out of policy WFH days because she’s reliable and always gets her work done, while Jane doesn’t get extra WFH because she disappears and misses deadlines if she’s out of sight for more than a day” really, really, deeply diminishes the gravity of systemic oppression.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:49 am it’s pretty clear that hbc was talking about reasonable-ish workplaces This has nothing to do with what the legal system does, other than documenting the problem. Because there are LOTS of very *not* reasonable workplaces. Or even reasonable workplaces that have some not so reasonable / not so competent managers. @Suze is flat out wrong that this is a reasonable and realistic way to manage. But that does not mean that there are not a lot of companies or managers who “manage” this way. It exists. And some of the fallout is what we see in the legal system.
TeaAndToast* February 3, 2025 at 12:48 pm Not sure if My Boss Is Dumber was talking about employment law or The Law in general and I agree that you should never count on the reasonableness of employers. I just think hbc’s comment didn’t merit the “you don’t pay attention to racial issues” response
Stuckinacrazyjob* February 3, 2025 at 10:56 am Yea, it can be weird if the rules are different for different people. My work nemesis and I are exempted from going to the office on Monday because we have worked a long time and that confused a new worker and my work nemesis noted that she just doesn’t obey the rules and I noted that I try to go but sometimes I don’t have the energy ( my work nemesis is exempt probably because she cussed a few people out and I think they thought I’d also get mad or something
MigraineMonth* February 3, 2025 at 12:19 pm Interestingly, when you study bias and the reason minorities have to work so much harder to succeed in the workplace, that is a frequent place it manifests: not in creating special rules that oppress the minorities, but in exempting non-minorities from the rules. The boss isn’t thinking, “I’ll come up with a way to force Aaliyah out, I’ll write her up for being tardy twice this month.” Instead, they’re thinking, “Chad was tardy twice this month, but when I ran into him at church he mentioned he’s been going through a rough patch in his marriage. I’ll cut him some slack, because he reminds me a lot of myself at that age and if he was fired the company would lose his leadership potential.” In the boss’ mind they aren’t discriminating *against* a black woman; they’re just following policy when disciplining her and making an exception for Chad because he’s otherwise a good employee and seems to fit into company culture. And so white privilege is upheld without anyone “being racist”.
Antilles* February 3, 2025 at 9:07 am Why would they “need an excuse” to discipline or get rid of employees? If your experience is encountering managers who need “violation of expense report policy” to discipline workers for being problematic, you’ve worked for some terrible managers. Also, the idea of enforcing every little rule to make their lives unbearable is laughable, because once they realize that you’re not actually going to enforce discipline about the policy (which they’ll figure out pretty quick), they’ll just stop paying attention. The real reason that company policies are detailed in writing is because it provides clear guidance to serve as a starting point for everybody in the company, regardless of role. There can be additional managerial discretion on top of that for rules which aren’t really necessary in your role, but having everything written down still provides an easy reference to check against.
My Boss is Dumber than Yours* February 3, 2025 at 9:50 am You need an excuse when you want to get rid of a six year tenured employee who has received department awards nearly every year because you want to hire the guy from your church. Suddenly, none of those awards or great performance reviews matter, all that matters is the “mandatory” meeting he missed three years ago which the previous manager approved so he could travel to his mother’s sixtieth birthday (and first since his father died). Nope, that meeting was MANDATORY so the employee requesting it as time off proves he wasn’t a “team player”.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:51 am You need an excuse when you want to get rid of a six year tenured employee who has received department awards nearly every year because you want to hire the guy from your church. Sure. But any company that *intentionally* creates the kind of system to “manage” taht way is terrible. And any company that allows a manager to abuse a system that was built for reasonable reasons, is not doing its job.
NotAnotherManager!* February 3, 2025 at 9:58 am This would never fly with my HR department, who has to approve terminations. I have pretty broad discretion on how some (but definitely not most) policies are implemented, but I have to be able to explain any deltas and they can’t be singled out to an individual (unless that individual is the only one who performs their job/in their team or there is a documented performance issue that conflicts with a more liberal application of a policy with wiggle room). I can’t let the whole team, for instance, sit on receipts for months and approve all but Bob’s when they are finally submitted. I feel like people need to understand the reason behind policies, too. Bob is allowed to work from Florida because we are licensed to do business there, and Jane can’t work from Nebraska because we are not (and there are tax and workers’ comp implications). I cannot approve any customer project receipts after 60 days because they can no longer be put on client project invoices by the terms of the contract. We have a minimum FTE coverage requirement and will deny vacation once we hit the minimum because, even if the day ends up being really quiet, one of our team’s responsibilities is to have someone available for ad hoc needs and I have no way of knowing a month in advance if it’s going to be quiet or if all the dumpsters around us will spontaneously combust.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:43 am but if they want to get rid of somebody they can enforce every little rule and make their lives unbearable until they quit. Here is the thing with that. Any company that allows this is asking for a lawsuit. Because what happens is that someone sees that they are being treated differently, gets fired, and then they sue claiming discrimination. And if the person who got fired has their ducks all in a row, then the company winds up having to settle or it goes to trial. And even if they win, that’s a major cost. It’s not illegal to be a jerk and do unfair and stupid things – and what you are describing is deeply unfair and terrible management. But when people are treated unfairly, they are more likely to go after you in whatever way they can. Which can mean a lawsuit, even if there was no illegal behavior involved. And if it turns out that the person you fired or penalized is of a different protected demographic than the others who were allowed to break those rules, you will lose that law suit, even if the real reason had nothing to do with it. Because courts an juries will see the selective enforcement of rules as pretext. eg There are 4 people in the department. One of the women comes in late on a regular basis and you look the other way. One of the men gets dinged every time he’s 5 minutes late. Even if the *real* reason you are on his case is because you think he’s an idiot and it takes him too long to do various tasks, the fact that you are focusing on the lateness when you let someone in the same role but another gender be late is going to get you into trouble. And if you go into court and say “well, Joe was rude to a customer last Tuesday, and it also takes him 5 minutes longer to ring up a sale than it takes Sally to” you’re going to get asked why all the write-ups are for lateness? And what did you do when Joe was rude? Have you given him some more training so he can ring up sales more quickly? The way to deal with problem employees is to *deal with them* not to rules lawyer them with inconsequential rules that are nothing but a trap.
fhqwhgads* February 3, 2025 at 1:47 pm ….that’s a really clunky way to go about that. If an employee is problematic, just fire them. Shouldn’t need to make up reasons.
Eryn* February 3, 2025 at 1:13 am LW4: Is the $1500 reflected on your W2 from your first year? If it is, that’s your stuff. If it’s not, it may still be yours, but there would be a super clear cut path forward if you paid taxes on it.
Roland* February 3, 2025 at 3:55 am Right, I want to know if you were taxed on your reimbursement amount. Check your paystubs. If that’s the case, they are welcome to have it back once they refund you for (your highest tax bracket) percent of 1500.
Roland* February 3, 2025 at 3:56 am Oh, plus an extra amount of money to offset the taxes on this new refund if they’re going to be using payroll to send it.
Freya* February 4, 2025 at 10:20 pm This. Here in Australia, these things are dealt with via Allowances. This would be a Tool Allowance or Other Allowance (subtype H1: home office) because it’s an approximate amount intended to compensate the employee for expected expenses; it would be a reimbursement were it an exact amount verifiable by receipts. Tax would have been withheld from the Allowance (but no superannuation would apply because it’s not OTE) and the employee would claim the actual cost (or the depreciation in value after purchase) as a deduction against the income on their tax return. As a side note, the effective life of a laptop according to the Australian Tax Office is two years, and so after two years, it’s effectively worthless for tax purposes.
Honey Badger* February 3, 2025 at 1:14 am I was on my time of month and had a huge, gushing accident all over the fabric chair, my clothes, the floor. I stood up like Carrie and coworkers came to help me, bring towels. No one cared. No one brought it up again. The chair was professionally cleaned. You’re human. We leak.
Grizabella the Glamour Cat* February 3, 2025 at 2:32 pm “You’re human. We leak.” This is a great way of putting this, and it makes a ton of sense. Human bodies are, after all, around 60% water, and our bodies contain an assortment of water soluble fluids, the amounts of which vary widely according to various medical situations. It stands to reason that we’re going to spring a link from time to time!
Lizzshi* February 3, 2025 at 1:16 am LW1, unfortunately, I had a similar issue (although on my couch at home, not at work) when I had COVID. Nature’s Miracle worked well.
Try Hydrogen Peroxide* February 3, 2025 at 1:47 am This was my situation, too. Covid, in bed and on the carpet. As mentioned in my other comment, hydrogen peroxide did the trick.
Nodramalama* February 3, 2025 at 3:02 am In my experience, a policy is often there to used when it’s needed but isn’t always. It’s there when someone says “well who says I can’t do this?” oh, it’s in writing. If someone is late once or twice, ok. The manager uses their discretion. But when someone is always late, there is a policy there.
Butterfly Counter* February 3, 2025 at 9:24 am I’m a professor and I feel like this is similar to writing down class policies in the syllabus. For me, I weigh the pros and cons of making enforcing a rule “a thing.” If I notice a student on their phone during the 15 seconds of down time while I’m waiting for other students to catch up on the notes: no problem. It’s way more of an issue to call a student out for texting during a time they can do it without being distracted. However, if the student is actively texting while we have a guest speaker or during important parts of the class and they’re missing content and being rude, it’s way more of an issue to not call them out. Plus, it’s in the syllabus you can’t be texting during class, so it can be enforced. Also, if you ever wondered why professors have some weird comments and rules in their syllabi, it’s because at one time, a student argued that because their weird behavior wasn’t addressed in the syllabus, it wasn’t against “the rules.” (Example: I once had a student mad that I gave extra credit because “it’s not in the syllabus we can get more points on an exam.”)
Username required* February 3, 2025 at 3:06 am LW1 – easiest thing to do is drop a large beverage of your choice on the chair – oops, clean up at desk 1. Black coffee will stain. Flat white or cappuccino will smell because of the milk.
OrdinaryJoe* February 3, 2025 at 8:29 am That was my ideas as well! Coke, coffee or tea with cream/milk, something that will require cleaning or at least allow you to clean it yourself if you feel comfortable.
Elizabeth West* February 3, 2025 at 9:02 am Hahaha, I did this once by accident (upended my water bottle into my lap). No peeing involved, but for the rest of the day, I looked like I’d wet my pants. FWIW, no one made fun of me.
anonymous worker ant* February 3, 2025 at 10:41 am If you want something that’s going to be reasonable similar smell/appearance wise, chicken soup.
N C Kiddle* February 3, 2025 at 12:46 pm Hopefully not while it’s fresh but as the proteins break down you may get a similar smell.
anonymous worker ant* February 4, 2025 at 11:01 am It’s salty, and animal-smelling, and looks vaguely like urine especially when soaked into fabric, and needs the same cleaning solutions, and notably, does not smell like coffee or spoilt milk. And as response above says, as they both age they have more in common. I suggest this from experience having spilled chicken soup on my chair first week of a new job and been very paranoid that the smell was similar enough people would think it was something else… In my (admittedly limited re:urine) experience most people aren’t actually all that good at smelling; if the strongest note is salty or just sort of mildly off umami and you give them something in the same family as an explanation, they will make it fit and never question it. Non-aged adult human urine in one-accident quantities shouldn’t really be that strongly scented; if it is you’ve likely got some kind of issue you should look at and also drink more water and less coffee.
Famous Amos* February 3, 2025 at 3:17 am Traumatic brain injuries are an emotional nightmare. Side effects can be changes in personality and temperament, new sensitivity to light, sound, smell, and so much more. I hope somebody in the office can help with the understanding the tbi recovery is extremely serious and it can take months or years. It’s a medical issue, not a personal one.
Samantha Parkington* February 3, 2025 at 3:40 am The problem is that her coworkers are now having to navigate it with no information because relevant facts about her accommodations are known to her superiors but not the people who actually have to work with her so they don’t even know where the missing stairs are.
MigraineMonth* February 3, 2025 at 12:46 pm This gets tricky, because HR actually shouldn’t tell OP3 what the accommodations are. They shouldn’t be discussing the manager’s health condition or accommodations with anyone who doesn’t need to know, and OP3 *isn’t* the manager or the one overseeing the accommodations. OP3, I know you want to help your manager, but she’s already asked you to stay in your own lane. At this point, I think you need to accept that you don’t own this problem and cannot solve it. What you can do is flag–to HR or maybe your grandmanager if you don’t trust HR to handle it well–that there are work problems that need to be addressed.
Abigail* February 3, 2025 at 5:58 am This is where accommodation gets really difficult. On one hand, people with a TBI do not deserve to be fired because of their injury and legitimately out of control behavior. On the other hand, people at work are not trained in TBI’s. It does not really matter that the manager can’t help their behavior, this is still unacceptable treatment at work. Some people are able to take abusive behavior and put it in a box in their brain labeled “this person has a medical issue.” Some people are not. And I don’t think that is a moral failing of the people who can’t do that. If this was my manager I would be very sorry for them indeed AND I would be job searching. Because I can’t put up with this for 40 hours per week, full stop.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:56 am If this was my manager I would be very sorry for them indeed AND I would be job searching. Because I can’t put up with this for 40 hours per week, full stop. Exactly. Yes, be understanding. But the person *still* cannot do the job *as it stands*. Can something be changed to improve the situation? I hope so! And I would hope that when the LW talks to whomever, they go in with “How can we mitigate the problem?” Not “Manager needs to be fired!” But ultimately, this needs to be fixed.
MigraineMonth* February 3, 2025 at 12:52 pm Exactly. OP3’s manager has a new disability that is interfering with her ability to do her job. Of course it isn’t the manager’s fault and we hope that the company can find an accommodation that will let her keep doing her job, but “allowed to be temperamental and yell at reports for months or years” is not an acceptable one. If they cannot find an accommodation, I hope they can switch her to a non-management role and then let her return to her original role with a clean slate after she recovers.
Unpleased* February 3, 2025 at 6:47 am I was struck by the LW’s discussion of the religious angle in this regard. I am not religious but I do have a kid who had a months-long battle with the after-effects of a concussion. I understand being really frustrated in the LW’s position, but brain injuries are scary and such a process to deal with. The employer needs to do a better job bringing some clarity and support for all of them if possible. But the religion thing feels unnecessarily personal. It’s a bit of a red herring. Her life may never be the same. Yes, go to HR about the work problems. But if you can find some room to acknowledge that this is tough and scary in ways you don’t really get, that might help take some of the frustration out of this.
Sar* February 3, 2025 at 7:19 am I assumed the reference to her religion was to explain the delay in treatment, so that commenters could understand how the supervisor’s course of recovery may differ from the norm.
Hastily Blessed Fritos* February 3, 2025 at 7:21 am It was mentioned in the context of having delayed treatment, which may be exacerbating the current symptoms. The reason for the delay isn’t relevant but the fact of the delay may be. (Not a doctor and never had a TBI, so I don’t know.)
OP* February 3, 2025 at 9:25 am Hello, I am the OP. I would like to clarify a couple of things about the post. The fact that my supervisor is a person of faith is well known and long standing, and it was originally part of why she stated she was delaying treatment. I felt that was relevant; it was not something that I, nor anyone on our staff gave her guff about but I also think it is relevant. What I didn’t include is that post TBI she started making explicit faith based comments in staff meetings as performance encouragements; this was not how she was pre TBI. It is also something that has held me back from going to HR because it will get her in trouble, that and I know that HR doesn’t withhold the name of the person who makes a complaint which means even if I go to them out of concern there is no way she is going to receive it like that.
Venus* February 3, 2025 at 9:50 am “I know that HR doesn’t withhold the name of the person who makes a complaint” Oh my goodness, I don’t know what to suggest in that case! I think Alison’s idea to go to HR works but make it sound as constructive as possible – that the accommodations need to be tweaked a bit? It sounds like she’s likely to retaliate (not that she would intend to be mean but if she had issue with your earlier help then it’s not going to be any better now).
red dog* February 3, 2025 at 10:21 am I’m perplexed as to what religion downplays going to a doctor. It’s certainly not Christianity, which operate some of the largest hospitals in the country. It’ not Islam, which encourages people to see healthcare. The fact that your supervisor belongs to a fringe religious group, which are the only people that oppose medical care on religious grounds, might be pertinent to your situation. While “live and let live” is usually the way to go on religion in the workplace, if their religious beliefs are having an outsized effect on the work environment then it’s an issue.
wavefunction* February 3, 2025 at 10:48 am There are plenty of Christian churches that downplay going to a doctor in favor of “faith-healing”. The incidents I’ve personally seen were at non-denominational churches, but I have seen MANY denominations downplaying mental health care. There are so many Christian denominations that it’s very difficult to accurately say anything about Christianity or Christians as a whole. The same applies to Islam, as making sweeping statements about the beliefs of nearly 2 million people is bound to be incorrect.
Irish Teacher.* February 3, 2025 at 10:57 am Yes, I was just making a comment about how Christian denominations run the full spectrum from “seeing a doctor is not only the sensible thing to do but is also often the moral thing to do as it reduces the chances you will spread communicatable disease” right through to “put your faith in God and he will heal you. No need to rely on science. If your faith is strong enough, God will make you well.” I think most of the large mainstream denominations tend closer to the former but there are denominations at the other end of the spectrum too. I assume it’s the same in other religions, but Christianity is the one I’m most familiar with. There are also charletans and faith healers who play on people with serious illnesses, so it’s possible this might not be even a specific tenet of her religion so much as a specific pastor or other person who convinced her that God will heal her if she just pays him. People of many religions can be susceptible to this.
MigraineMonth* February 3, 2025 at 12:35 pm Yes, many faith practices link mental and spiritual health and advocate using only prayer, faith-based therapy and community to treat mental health issues. If the TBI treatment involved any mental health medications, the manager’s faith community may have discouraged her from taking them regardless of their faith’s official doctrines. (Personally, I take an all-of-the-above approach. I need community, exercise, therapy, meditation, a good diet *and* a medication that addresses the neurotransmitter imbalance in my brain.)
Chas* February 3, 2025 at 10:50 am It could be that it was only a part of the treatment that was at odds with the religious beliefs, rather than the whole concept of going to the doctor being discouraged. (For example, I know that Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, so it could be something along those lines.)
TeaAndToast* February 3, 2025 at 10:53 am I don’t want to speculate too much about this specific person’s beliefs but Christian Science is an example of a denomination that asks its adherents to use faith healing in some situations. I don’t know that much about Christian Science but I’m mostly trying to say it’s certainly not unheard of
TeaAndToast* February 3, 2025 at 10:56 am Sorry, didn’t refresh to see that other people had replied! Don’t mean to bombard you
JustaTech* February 3, 2025 at 2:40 pm My mother had a professor in college (back in the 60’s) who was a Christian Scientist and had been in a car accident and suffered a head injury (probably a TBI). She refused all treatment for it (don’t know what they could have done then) and one of the side effects was that her mouth and her thoughts ran at two different speeds, so periodically she would just skip over a big part of what she thought she had said. My mom described it as an incredibly frustrating class.
Insulindian Phasmid* February 3, 2025 at 10:56 am There are definitely subsets of Christianity that at the least look down on going to a doctor over allowing God to heal you
Enai* February 3, 2025 at 11:03 am Cristian Scientists do. So do any number of splinter groups of various faiths.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 12:00 pm The fact that your supervisor belongs to a fringe religious group, which are the only people that oppose medical care on religious grounds, might be pertinent to your situation. You’re making a lot of leaps here. And even if you were right about her being part of a “fringe religious group”, it would not be relevant. I think that if the LW goes to HR, they should not mention the reason why Supervisor delayed getting help. In fact, it might be better to not even mention that. Because it’s actually not relevant. What *is* relevant is that she’s having these issues and something needs to change.
valprehension* February 3, 2025 at 1:08 pm Many religions (including various versions of Christianity) take issues with specific kinds of medical treatments/technologies, moreso than being against all medical treatments.
ubotie* February 3, 2025 at 1:41 pm “I’m perplexed as to what religion downplays going to a doctor. It’s certainly not Christianity, which operate some of the largest hospitals in the country.” Ha ha ha. Sorry. It’s just that Christianity is a huge spectrum, both in denominations and how individuals interpret it. So yeah, you could have someone who’s a Christian and is also like, “Jesus is the only doctor I need!” One only needs to spend like, 5 minutes on forums run by people who grew up in fundamentalist Christian families (like the Duggars) to see some examples. A somewhat more mainstream example (IMHO) is something maybe involving TBI treatments and stem cell research, and the OP’s boss being opposed to said treatments on that grounds. If they’re Catholic, then generally speaking, anything involving the words “stem cells” tends to be an immediate NOPE NOPE NOPE even before you can explain further why said cells don’t have anything to do with what they’re thinking of. (When the OP said their boss was delaying/opposing treatment on religious grounds, that was honestly my first thought).
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 12:03 pm <i. It is also something that has held me back from going to HR because it will get her in trouble, Do you have to mention this aspect when you go to HR? I would totally understand why you would want to bring it up, but I don’t think that being honest means that you have to say *everything* you know. What you described on the original letter is enough to go on, and if HR finds out about the rest on their own that’s on them. The bigger problem here is that it sounds like you HR is not the most competent.
I'm just here for the cats!!* February 3, 2025 at 9:56 am That doesn’t give the person an excuse for the behavior or for violating internal policies of giving someone else a password to software. OP needs to bring this up to HR because who knows what else might be happening. I feel for the person, and I know things like brain injuries are terrible to overcome. But maybe she needs to go on long term disability or a different job.
NotAnotherManager!* February 3, 2025 at 10:05 am It’s a medical issue that is causing issues in the professional environment. It is possible to be both understanding and compassionate of the individual while also recognizing that the end-result of this particular TBI is that the manager is no longer able to fulfill the duties of her position (not being able to remember key details, asking staff to violate policies, behaving erratically or lashing out at employees). Having a medical issue gives you access to reasonable accommodations to do your job (like flexibility to work from home more often), not to be fully excused from the professional standards to which everyone else (like asking your subordinates for information they are prohibited by policy from providing).
HonorBox* February 3, 2025 at 10:21 am It didn’t read to me like the LW was not understanding. It seemed more like they’re trying to navigate the business side of things without having all the information needed to do so adequately.
The Unspeakable Queen Lisa* February 3, 2025 at 2:15 pm It’s both. Two things can exist at the same time. It will always be personal to me if someone yells at *me* or tries to get *me* to break a policy/rule/law. I exist, I am a person as much as the person with a TBI. I assume you’re projecting from your own experience, but nobody is calling the boss a bad person when they say her behavior is unacceptable. And her POV is not the only one that matters.
Where oh where* February 3, 2025 at 4:21 am Regarding Letter #5, Alison, can you be more specific? Especially with so many remote work situations. When you say the state you worked in, do you mean your physical worksite location (for wfh this would be home) or the location you report out of?
Rational Lemming* February 3, 2025 at 11:50 am This is my question too. Hadn’t thought of it before LW5 brought it up! Work in state 1, report to leadership (“local office”) in state 2, corporate office is in state 3.
fhqwhgads* February 3, 2025 at 4:53 pm WFH doesn’t change this one as far as I know. If you go to work in an office in state B, you’re working in state B. If you live in state A and WFH, you’re working in state A. Alison’s answer “the state you work in” applies to both cases.
Ohio Duck* February 4, 2025 at 12:11 pm What if the company you work at is in Chicago and you WFH in Indiana? I’m pretty sure you would file unemployment in Illinois.
bamcheeks* February 3, 2025 at 5:17 am I have another one for the Bad Policy file: when a manager introduces a Policy rather than actively managing one or two people. I had a job a few years ago which was full of this– details have been changed but this is the gist. We had a front desk that was supposed to be covered 8-5pm every weekday, although it would often get closed on Monday mornings and Friday afternoons due to other activities going on in that space. 18 out of twenty people did this perfectly happily, just signing up for 2-3 hours a week, swapping shifts if something came up, and it was all fine. However, Rod, Jane and Freddy consistently avoided scheduling their shifts, didn’t schedule them until the last minute, never picked up swapped shifts, or deliberately scheduled them at times when the desk was most likely to be closed/unavailable. This was noticed, and a few people grumbled about it to their managers. The senior manager above my level didn’t like to come down too heavily on individuals, so his solution was to institute A Policy that everyone had to do a minimum of 6 hours a fortnight. I joined as a manager when the policy had been in place for about six months, and it was a flipping nightmare to administer. People were constantly anxious about not making their six hours a fortnight; they would come to me in a panic because they really needed an hour this afternoon to get some other work done and there were already two people scheduled on this afternoon but if they didn’t do their shift they wouldn’t make six hours; they would complain about the desk being shut because they were worried they wouldn’t get their six hours in; I had people working overtime because they had to get their six hours on the desk and they stay late to finish another piece of work. We spent RIDICULOUS amounts of time in team meetings with people trading off their shifts to make sure they hit exactly six hours in a fortnight and not seven or five, and we often had three people on the front desk where we only needed two. I told my team not to worry so much about the six hours, and that it was a guide rather than a rule. But it was written down as Policy, and everyone was paranoid that if they weren’t complying, they’d be On A List. (It’s fair to say there were other issues at play, as well.) To me it was really obvious that a better fix would have been more actively managing Rod, Jane and Freddy, and their managers tracking them for a few months to make sure they were doing a broad spread of shifts and averaging the same as the rest of the team. To me it was ridiculous to have something so formal in place for what should have been much more lightly managed when 90% of the team was absolutely fine.
Emily* February 3, 2025 at 5:59 am This has been my #1 complaint in every job I’ve ever had. If managers would just more actively manage the couple/handful of people who aren’t doing what they are supposed to do, the problem would actually be solved without so many difficulties/complications, and stress on the people who are doing their jobs. The same goes for team meetings when a manager addresses an issue to an entire team when it is only a couple people doing it. Those should be individual conversations between the manager and those people.
Elizabeth West* February 3, 2025 at 9:14 am Yep, it’s the old when-one-kid-throws-an-eraser-punish-the-entire-class school of managing.
Kendall^s* February 3, 2025 at 7:55 am I used to volunteer at a makerspace, and the site manager instituted Rule Zero: don’t do anything that will force us to make more rules. It worked pretty well for a rather long time.
bamcheeks* February 3, 2025 at 9:28 am Oh I like that VERY much! I could do with that for my seven-year-old. (“Yes I know I’ve never told you that you’re not allowed to mix crushed oat cakes, porridge oats, water and torn up coloured paper on the living room carpet but — “)
Be Gneiss* February 3, 2025 at 9:41 am My boss has a rule that is basically “I don’t care what you do as long as I don’t get pulled into a meeting about it.” Flex your hours, work from home occasionally, don’t explicitly follow dress code, decorate your cubicle, have a mini-pot-luck of hot dips….
Chauncy Gardener* February 3, 2025 at 12:22 pm I love this. Like my perfect dress code policy “Dress appropriately”
sswj* February 3, 2025 at 5:49 am LW3 – Definitely go to HR. These are classic symptoms of a still-healing TBI, and it can take a long time and a lot of work (as in professional help) to teach the brain new pathways and develop coping skills. My husband had a TBI and it was a good 2-3 years before he was as close to ‘normal’ as he’ll ever be. Some things are still more difficult than they used to be, and 7 years later he’s still learning new habits to deal with his altered brain. FWIW, he work a professional job and does well, but it has been a long road to healing. And the thing about brain injuries is that the affected person can NOT recognize (in the moment, anyway) that they are not functioning well. Their brain isn’t working right, and all those assessment skills are buried under the larger effort of just existing at all. I hope she will accept help because there is a lot that can be done, but it’s a long road.
Chairman of the Bored* February 3, 2025 at 6:18 am I have experienced many cases where “rule exists but is not enforced” is ultimately a result of the company/manager planning a CYA. Imagine a workshop where safety glasses are technically required and provided, but nobody is actually made to wear them. If a worker injures their eye, the company can still say “We told him to wear safety glasses and even gave him a pair; he got hurt because he wasn’t following the safety precautions.” A whole lot of corporate safety/ethics training exists so that when there is an incident bosses can claim that the people involved were rogue employees who were breaking the rules, rather than just regular people whose behavior was consistent with demonstrated norms.
Junior Assistant Peon* February 3, 2025 at 7:22 am I think a lot of companies do this deliberately by creating cumbersome official procedures such that anyone following them to the letter would never get anything done.
Ashley* February 3, 2025 at 8:34 am I know a place that wrote a personnel policy manual for insurance reasons. When I asked about the alcohol policy because my group was planning an event in line with company norms but against policy I was told not to worry about it. It was infuriating because they could have written the policy they wanted but couldn’t be bothered. (I was also probably one of only a few people who actually read it cover to cover before signing it which also made me unpopular.)
Chairman of the Bored* February 3, 2025 at 8:59 am This is a perfect example. The people writing that manual didn’t *actually* care if there was alcohol at company events, they just wanted something they could point to and say “this event was against policy” if somebody got hurt or wrecked their car etc. Learning which rules and real rules and which ones are pretend rules is a large part of successfully navigating complex organizations.
Junior Assistant Peon* February 3, 2025 at 9:25 am “Learning which rules and real rules and which ones are pretend rules is a large part of successfully navigating complex organizations.” This is pure brilliance!
Rebecca* February 3, 2025 at 9:07 am The last school I worked at had a policy of asking for doctor’s notes for illnesses. In 3 years working there, I had never been asked for a doctor’s note. I only knew of one employee who had been asked for one – someone who they thought was abusing sick days and was out every week. They wanted it on the books so that in the event of a problem, they had something to fall back on to solve it. That scenario actually made perfect sense to me.
Yankees fans are awesome!* February 3, 2025 at 10:26 am But how would anyone force a person to wear safety glasses? I mean, safety protocols aren’t really a good example here. Policy commands me to wear safety glasses, I choose not to, I get injured, well, that’s on me. Or, I choose not to wear them and get written up for it. Same for hard hats. steel-toed boots, etc. Seems to me that the better examples of inconsistently-applied policies don’t involve liability, e.g. lateness.
Enai* February 3, 2025 at 11:16 am Throw them out of the working area when they don’t? Write them up with the consequence of “three writeups for the same offence means immediate dismissal”? Dock their pay for performance issues (not wearing safety equipment)? … But maybe first try if something’s wrong with the safety glasses? I had a pair that would fog up every two minutes. It is not actually safe to wear a device that essentially renders you blind. Swapping them for a pair with better ventilation helped a lot.
Freya* February 4, 2025 at 10:36 pm The safety glasses I was issued with for school were One Size Fits Most. I am small, with a proportional head, so I would literally put them on over my regular glasses and watch them fall off my face (the best I could do was have the earpieces hooked over my ears and the actual glasses either balanced precariously on my chin or swinging beneath it. If someone was being pedantic about how I wore them, I could put one earpiece over an ear properly and demonstrate that they were over an inch too wide for my face by sticking my hand over my other ear, under the glasses, or just letting the other side fall). The policy also said that people with prescription glasses could just wear those instead of safety glasses, so I have no idea why certain teachers would get on my case about wearing the useless things.
JanetM* February 3, 2025 at 12:57 pm I have a friend who was the safety officer for his department. His way of getting people to wear their safety equipment included passing around a pair of safety goggles with a shard of glass jammed part-way through the lens and describing in some detail just what would have happened to that person’s eye if they had not been wearing them.
Emmy Noether* February 3, 2025 at 2:14 pm WHAT? You don’t wear safety glasses, you get reminded, then you get reprimanded, then you get fired. You put them on or you’re walked out, permanently. Even where I live, where firing people is really hard, outright refusing to wear safety equipment is grounds for immediate dismissal.
Emmy Noether* February 3, 2025 at 2:06 pm I mean, they probably think it’s a CYA, but they’ll have a nasty surprise. Enforcement agencies, courts of law, insurance, or whoever gets involved after an accident aren’t dumb. They won’t stop at checking if there’s a policy in theory, they’ll also check how it was communicated and enforced, especially if an employee tells them it wasn’t. A policy that isn’t enforced won’t count. And a lot of those safety things are also laws, and not enforcing them will really, truly not save a company from being held responsible. Unless they can bully the victims into keeping quiet because they (the victims) weren’t following policy. Which might work, until you get the wrong person or something really bad happens.
Spooz* February 3, 2025 at 6:41 am #1: I think you can be even vaguer than “medical incident”. I think you can say, “Something got spilled on my chair that has unfortunately ruined the fabric.” The fact that it got spilled from your bladder via your urethra is irrelevant. It’s OK! You can gloss over this, get what you need, and move on.
Cordelia* February 3, 2025 at 7:59 am If I was LW I would actually deliberately spill something,, like a milky coffee or some soup. Then ask for a clean up
I'm just here for the cats!!* February 3, 2025 at 9:58 am I understand the reasoning for this, but if they are going to clean the chair they should know that it is urine and that they will want to use an enzyme cleaner.
Cordelia* February 3, 2025 at 1:55 pm Enzyme cleaners work on organic material, so would be needed for milk or soup too.
Mentally Spicy* February 3, 2025 at 7:04 am #3 You have my sympathy. Over a decade ago my best friend suffered a traumatic brain injury at work. It took him a long time to physically recover, but the changes to his personality and demeanor are unfortunately permanent. He became increasingly paranoid, convinced that perfectly harmless or inadvertent behaviour from other people were personal sleights against him. Worse he started believing conspiracy theories. All of them, and the more outlandish the better. His Facebook feed became a toxic pile of bullshit. As his friend I tried to get him through it, I tried to get him to see reason, and just generally tried to support him. Unfortunately it culminated in him getting irate over something innocuous I had done or said (I can’t even remember what now) and sending me a very long, abusive, nasty text message. That’s when I cut ties with him. I still feel incredibly sorry for him but I needed to look after my own mental health. The tragic thing is that on the day he suffered his injury my friend ceased to exist. My funny, talented, carefree, irrepressible friend. He’s gone. And I miss him terribly. But he’s never coming back.
Alicent* February 3, 2025 at 7:33 am I’m so sorry for your loss. That must have been so confusing and upsetting. I had a college course that was actually hands on managing a business. The man who had run the program for decades was an institution at the university and was supposed to be really wonderful and kind. Except to me he became verbally abusive, harsh and as I found out later, imagined really negative feedback from my other students. He berated me during our end of year feedback/grading session until I was in years and said my colleagues hated me and called me a female dog. He did it again in public at our end of year banquet and completely ruined the whole experience for me. Others who had known him before figured I had done something really awful. Shortly thereafter I was informed that he was only retiring because he was dying of brain cancer and really wanted another year of managing the program as his last wish. He passed a few months later and had a building named after him. I didn’t attend the ceremony with my classmates nor did I attend the orientation for the new group of students because it was so traumatizing. It may be a medical issue for OP’s manager, but it doesn’t mean that people will stay and deal with abuse due to it.
JSPA* February 3, 2025 at 8:18 am There are a huge range of TBI’s, and of underlying brain plasticity between people. I would not want readers dealing with TBI (themselves, in the family, at work) to come away with the message that as a blanket rule, all changes are permanent. Some are, others are not (or not entirely). In some sense, the TBI is only backstory to the issue (and even more so, the religious motivation and the delay in treatment, which could have been edited out without changing the essentials of the question). The LW should pretty much deal with this as they would any other boss who has been largely kind and effective in the past, but is now functioning in a problematic manner. “She’s a good person,” “I feel sympathy,” and “this is not working” and “it’s unrealistic to expect the situation to change in the next few weeks, we pressingly need a plan B” commonly coexist. That’s the piece to focus on.
Mentally Spicy* February 3, 2025 at 10:14 am I wasn’t trying to give blanket advice. I was just sympathising with the letter writer because I have been in a similar situation. I know every situation is different.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 12:09 pm “She’s a good person,” “I feel sympathy,” and “this is not working” and “it’s unrealistic to expect the situation to change in the next few weeks, we pressingly need a plan B” commonly coexist. That’s the piece to focus on. LW, even with your addition comments, I think that this is the key piece of advice.
OrdinaryJoe* February 3, 2025 at 8:51 am “The tragic thing is that on the day he suffered his injury my friend ceased to exist. My funny, talented, carefree, irrepressible friend. He’s gone. And I miss him terribly.” So, so true and like many mental health issues or brain injuries & illnesses – beyond devastating for everyone involved. The person *looks* the same but isn’t. They are a true tragedy.
Rock Prof* February 3, 2025 at 9:48 am One of my favorite students who had worked in my research group had a brain injury and the shift was also so extreme. They barely eeked out graduating, going from funny and friendly with good grades to really combative about everything and failing. It was really sad to see, and I really hope they’re still getting the care they need.
Hroethvitnir* February 3, 2025 at 8:29 pm Yeah, man. TBIs that “just” cause long-term health problems are bad enough (I know multiple people dealing with that). I did see a conversation about TBI-induced personality changes where a couple of people who have experienced this weighed in. Both commented that it was very surreal and clearly very upsetting for the people in their life, but it’s like that other person had never existed. Which makes sense, but is pretty scary to contemplate.
Junior Assistant Peon* February 3, 2025 at 7:19 am #2 – I’ve seen a lot of situations where a new policy is created in response to An Incident. Often, the new rule is wildly impractical to implement in real life, and is quickly forgotten even though it still exists on paper.
Irish Teacher.* February 3, 2025 at 8:45 am Yeah, as a teacher, I always say that if a rule seems to be utterly ridiculous and just there for the sake of having a rule, the odds are high that it was created in response to a particular incident.
Aggretsuko* February 3, 2025 at 12:41 pm I’m reminded of my old volunteer job. We had an instructor who insisted that he ABSOLUTELY HAD TO be listening to (reasonably loud rock) music while he did his torch demos. Unfortunately the torch area was located in a loud area of the studio, which had to be loud because of the equipment/blowers that had to be on and could not be turned off, and there was another class being held nearby. That class ran rarely and there wasn’t anywhere else to put them, so it wasn’t a usual thing going on. The class complained they could not hear each other talking over his music. The music was the only sound thing that could be adjusted. The instructor said no, he had to have that music going to keep his sanity/attention going. So they had to institute a no-music policy to force him to stop, and the instructor quit after the class ended. They never actually followed that policy again after that that I can remember. A place I volunteer at now has a few pages of “Things You Are Not Allowed To Do Here” that you have to read aloud and sign off on at the start of every session, and they will tell you that every single thing on that list was implemented because somebody did it. It ranges from “don’t spray hairspray indoors” to “don’t show children porn or give them alcohol….”
JustaTech* February 3, 2025 at 2:50 pm Or it was created because there was “An Incident” somewhere else (in the company or in the industry) and no one ever remembered to even tell the people at that site about the policy. For example, I was looking for some document and discovered the “policy” (but not official policy because it wasn’t in the official document system) of the dress code for our facility. It said that we are expected to dress “business casual”. “Business casual”, as discussed here, is an incredibly wide range of clothing descriptions, but unless you really pulled on it there was no way to describe what we all wear as “business casual”. I saw my boss in a suit jacket twice ever, at the holiday party, and almost everyone wears jeans every day. We’re not sloppy or slovenly, but we live in a casual dress part of the country and we work in a casual dress part of our industry. So I put that “policy” back in the memory hole where it belonged.
Jennifer Juniper* February 3, 2025 at 7:29 am I am so sorry your friend suffered an injury. I am sorry for your loss.
BW* February 3, 2025 at 7:30 am #2. Back in the Dress for Success 90’s, my company’s owner liked everyone to wear a suit. We were a computer company and nobody saw us while we programmed or answered the tech hot lines, but we were dressed in suits. Then casual Fridays became a thing. The problem was that none of us had casual work clothing. We had suits and we had Saturday clothing, which was tooooo casual for business casual. Every week a new rule would suddenly come out. – No shorts. – No T-shirts. – No sandals. And then: – Everyone must wear PANTY HOSE. The men complained. The rule was never enforced. And finally: – No more Casual Fridays.
Butterfly Counter* February 3, 2025 at 9:38 am Ugh. The pantyhose thing. In the late 90s I was a temp in an office where if you were wearing a skirt above the ankles (ladies only), you had to wear panty hose. In Texas. In July. I am a Rule Follower. This was probably my first taste of civil disobedience. I was only called out on it once because I think half the office women weren’t wearing pantyhose either. Also, our Casual Fridays would not allow for denim whatsoever. Khaki pants only. Or skirts (for women) and culottes were verboten. I also got written up for wearing a skort on Casual Friday.
Juicebox Hero* February 3, 2025 at 9:57 am AT my first job, pantyhose were required, even in the dead of our hot, humid summers in a building were the air conditioning was on the fritz more often than it worked. I used to wear long skirts and knee highs, because how were they going to enforce it?
I'm just here for the cats!!* February 3, 2025 at 10:00 am I remember my mom doing this too! She would wear a long skirt and then have the pantyhose socks. She’d say “Like what are they going to make me lift my skirt?”
Phony Genius* February 3, 2025 at 10:13 am After the recent malicious compliance columns, I’d be tempted to wear the pantyhose over my head, like a bank robber.
Middle Manager* February 3, 2025 at 7:44 am #2: My company has a dress code policy that utilizes terminology that is wildly outdated and almost never enforced. Here’s an excerpt on footwear: WEAR Loafers Leather boat shoes Heels Flats Dressy sandals Boots (excluding work and hiking boots) DON’T WEAR Flip flops or casual sandals Athletic shoes Slipper The word “dressy” appears in our guidelines seven times, but what exactly is the line between a dressy sandal and a casual sandal? We have exhaustive lists like this for every part of the wardrobe. It’s very open to interpretation; I have no interest in spending time and energy policing this nonsense. Instead of having someone take the time to review and update the policy, every so often, they double down and send around the policy to everyone….who continues to ignore it. Make it make sense.
HonorBox* February 3, 2025 at 9:53 am When I started at my current workplace, I joked with my boss that the dress code written in the handbook was oddly specific and very dressy for the work we do. He said it was put in place by a former boss because things had gotten too casual. So I rewrote it to make it work better. Because lord knows I wasn’t wearing a sport coat all summer…
cat herder* February 3, 2025 at 11:26 am ^THIS! I started a new job this summer in a very casual office, and the written dress code was so specific and outdated. Example: “no flannel, no combat boots” (I felt personally attacked, lol). Also, “no athletic shoes”. Meanwhile most everyone wears sneakers, and plenty of the higher ups even wear jogger pants or leggings. Go with the flow, I think. There are more important parts to the employee handbook IMO.
JustaTech* February 3, 2025 at 2:58 pm This is what our hypothetical dress code is like too, and I’d say that 90% of the staff don’t even know that we have a dress code. Interestingly it’s actually more strict than the dress code we do know about, which is the “The Inspectors Are HERE!” dress code. Which was once described by a coworker as “interview clothes” and was also completely ignored by senior leadership (no jeans, nothing with tares, no t-shirts). (There’s also the safety dress code, but that’s easy – no open toed shoes in the lab.) If anyone ever tried to enforce the policy I would volunteer to re-write it for our actual area and field.
Reed Weird (they/them)* February 5, 2025 at 9:28 am Ha, my company’s dress code is generally reasonable, but it includes that for people representing the company outside the office, facial piercings and “provocatively colored dyed hair or eccentric hair styles” aren’t allowed. My coworker and I go to several conventions a year and run company booths, she has an eyebrow piercing and I usually have a bright red or purple undercut.
TheYellowDart* February 3, 2025 at 7:47 am LW1: This is so common that I originally thought Ask A Manager was reposting a past letter. You’re fine, don’t worry!
Sitting Pretty* February 3, 2025 at 8:17 am #4 During COVID we were all sent home with our work laptops. When I mentioned to the facilities manager that I did not have a good chair at home, he put a Herman Miller Aeron chair in my car for me. Fast forward to 2021, and there was a big layoff. I got laid off. Returned the computer. Nobody ever mentioned the chair. I still have it.
LaminarFlow* February 3, 2025 at 8:23 am LW3: I feel you here! When I first started my current company about 5 years ago, my manager had a terrible car accident that resulted in a TBI. She took FMLA for a while, but brains are weird, and healing is a long and complicated process. My team was able to carry on with business as usual while she was out. When she returned, things were just off, which I get – a TBI is a TBI! I expected that she would need extra time and attention with bringing her up to date on projects, but I did not anticipate her erratic mood swings. A few people who had more experience with her approached HR out of concern for her healing and wellbeing, as well as how her behavior was impacting the team. She ended up going on an extended medical leave for a few months, and it was a really good call. The progress that she made during the second leave was really incredible. Definitely gather some data points, and meet with HR. Your manager is struggling, and she might not know what to do, or where to start.
JustaTech* February 3, 2025 at 3:01 pm I used to have a coworker who’d had a TBI a few years before she started at my company. I never knew her before her injury (which she said was part of why she’d picked our company, so no one was comparing her to her “before” self) and while she absolutely had both disabilities related to the TBI and quirks related to the TBI, it was all very manageable. Which is mostly to say that brains are hard and weird, but it is possible that the LWs boss will get to a workable “new normal” with time and support.
Irish Teacher.* February 3, 2025 at 8:23 am LW2, I think it’s often a case of either the manager not liking conflict or just…picking their battles. Like if the dress code says business suits or something, a manager might overlook less formal dress in an employee who won’t be meeting clients because it’s not that big a deal. As a teacher, I will also say that sometimes rules are made to…sort of cover yourself. Like one time I was in a school and it was decided that a rule was to be made that students should keep their phones in their lockers and not have them with them in class, but the principal said if we noticed a phone in a schoolbag, but the student was not using it and it was switched off and not creating a disturbance, we should ignore it. The aim was so that if a student was playing with their phone under the desk and then said, “oh, but Miss, I was only switching it off,” that would be no excuse and parents couldn’t complain that we had treated the kid unfairly by punishing them, because regardless of whether they were actually playing a game on it or texting or “just switching it off,” it was against the rules for it to be in the classroom. I suspect there can be a bit of this in workplaces too, where a technical breach of the rules might be overlooked in a good employee who shows good judgement. Again with the dress code, a “no slogans” on t-shirts might be overlooked if the slogan is harmless but enforced if it is something inappropriate for the workplace. Or if work from home is restricted because some people weren’t as productive when working from home, an exception might be made for somebody who is. This isn’t always exactly a good idea. It works with stuff like the phones because students will just assume that wasn’t seen, but with things like slogans on t-shirts, it gets confusing and makes people think it won’t be enforced at all. And I think sometimes stuff just…doesn’t get changed. Like work from home may not have been allowed before 2020 because the infrastructure to make it work might not have been there, but post-lockdowns, it might be far more feasible and just…nobody bothered to update the policies.
She-Hulk SMASH* February 3, 2025 at 8:27 am On policies which aren’t enforced: A previous org had a ‘smart’ dress code policy, but we were an infamously relaxed office and it hadn’t been enforced in about a decade. Then we had a new colleague join, and once they got comfortable, they started to dress in a way which a number of outraged colleagues referred to as ‘cross-dressing’. Newbie was in fact dressed noticeably smarter and more traditionally ‘office-y’ than anyone else, but god forbid someone with a masculine name wear a skirt… One of the senior managers in the office heard the bullsh*t being talked, the threats of making formal complaints that Newbie was dressing ‘unprofessionally’… and quietly made it known that if they heard ONE MORE WORD about Newbie’s clothing, they would enforce the dresscode. Rigorously. (Including insisting that everyone with tattoos – which included most of the noisiest complainers – keep them covered at all times.) But that however enforced the dresscode was, *Newbie would still be allowed to wear a dress*. Silence reigned. Permanently. Sometimes a policy which isn’t enforced but still exists can be a very handy stick to beat bullies with.
Blarg* February 3, 2025 at 9:55 am That is AMAZING. Strong work to your organization and your colleague who dressed for their own success — they were certainly aware of the whisper campaign, and didn’t back down.
She-Hulk SMASH* February 3, 2025 at 2:15 pm It was one of the most ELEGANT uses of power I’ve ever seen, because at one stroke it made clear that not only was the behaviour unacceptable, but that Newbie (who in addition to preferring gender-nonconforming clothing, was both young and shy/quiet) had the full backing of the second most senior person in the entire office… and all without involving our frankly dreadful HR. Last I heard, Newbie is still there, still wearing their (very cute) outfits, and doing brilliantly.
Pippi’s mom* February 3, 2025 at 10:04 am This feels like the chaotic good. Or maybe it’s lawful good because it’s technically about following the rules to the letter, but either way, good on that manager for standing up to the complainers. (Chaotically lawful good?)
ColoradoWinter* February 3, 2025 at 8:30 am LW2: In some cases, there may be accommodations that you aren’t privy to. It really depends. I have a coworker who never has their camera on during Teams meetings and is almost never on the office. We work in an office where many positions can be done remotely, but our VP lives is too be in person at least once a week. I don’t know what the circumstances are, and it’s none of my business. On the other hand, I worked in retail years ago and had coworkers who were allowed to go on smoke breaks whenever they wanted, while the rest of us were held to our regular breaks – seemed like there should have been less flexibility in that policy. All of that to say, things aren’t always going to be the same (“fair”) across the board, and in many circumstances, we just should worry about ourselves. Personally, I don’t want to ever create a situation where I make life harder for someone else because I start poking at a policy over perceived unfairness. Obviously, there are exceptions to everything.
Abigail* February 3, 2025 at 9:20 am Sure but this letter describes actual harm to the LW. It is not about a vague sense of unfair rules. Reasonable accommodations is not defined as a license to move goal posts on your employees.
ColoradoWinter* February 3, 2025 at 11:07 am The LW brings up: “This could be dress codes, WFH vs working in the office, timeliness or absenteeism, or any kinds of procedures — situations where there’s a definite rule, something a manager says must or must not be done, but they openly ignore when the rules aren’t followed or refuse to enforce them.” Many of these do not cause “actual harm” and could easily fall under reasonable accommodation. Someone working from home more often than I do does not cause me harm, and it’s probably none of my business.
Bunch Harmon* February 3, 2025 at 8:32 am My old man cat was throwing up a lot and it turned out to be a thyroid issue. If you haven’t gotten your old lady cat checked, you might want to.
Bunch Harmon* February 3, 2025 at 8:33 am Nesting fail! That was meant for Marion Ravenwood’s comment about her cat throwing up.
Marion Ravenwood* February 3, 2025 at 10:46 am She has been, and she’s on hyperthyroidism meds and anti-nausea meds, both of which seem to be helping. But the odd rogue puke still gets through sometimes.
Bunch Harmon* February 3, 2025 at 6:32 pm Oh yes! We still deal with that too. It’s a lot less than before he was medicated. Most of it seems to be when he’s off schedule- like when we had a cat sitter come in for a recent trip, and she gave him his evening meds a couple of hours earlier than we do.
Dust Bunny* February 3, 2025 at 9:27 am My cat was always a barfer from youth, but it was finally diagnosed as chronic pancreatitis. She’ll be on low-dose steroids forever but at least the barfing is cut way back.
SchoolHouseRockStar* February 3, 2025 at 9:04 am LW 2 I have a coworker asking the same thing about policies at my work, although not about dress codes and more about sharing and receiving data/information and they are extremely by the book about it when managers have never enforced or required the specific documentation that the policy dictates we should do. I don’t get paid the big bucks to yay/nay these things but I agree with Alison’s various reasons why they don’t get enforced. Add in sometimes policies go unenforced for so long it turns in to “that’s how we’ve always done it” and people don’t challenge that explanation to keep the peace at work.
mango chiffon* February 3, 2025 at 9:05 am RE: policies, my office used to have a policy that on days before a holiday, we could leave at 3 PM and during the summer, we could also leave at 3 PM on Fridays. When we went remote for COVID, this policy was removed because we could “flex” our schedules. However, some team directors have continued this policy on their teams unofficially once this previous policy was removed and we returned to hybrid work. I support multiple teams and multiple directors, and this has made me upset, because it’s applied unevenly, and I can’t exactly “just log off” at 3 PM because one of the many teams I support.
Someone Online* February 3, 2025 at 9:27 am Clorox Urine Destroyer in the black and yellow bottle gets cat urine out of carpets and indoor car upholstery, so it is just about magic. Highly recommend.
FuzzFrogs* February 3, 2025 at 9:48 am My family uses Nature’s Miracle, from Petsmart, for all of our biological stains, from pets AND humans. I remember being mortified when my husband had to use it when I was pregnant, and I started peeing when I coughed/sneezed/laughed/farted/etc. Now that we have a toddler spreading his fluids everywhere, I’m so grateful for these modern products.
HonorBox* February 3, 2025 at 9:50 am Yep. The chair may not be destroyed at all. Hit it with some of this, spray it with Lysol, and you’re probably good to go. I’ve spilled stuff on my chair before – coffee with creamer, yogurt (thanks to a funky foil lid) – and used these types of things to ensure there’s no lasting impact. I think you’ll be fine doing the same in this situation.
B Wayne* February 3, 2025 at 9:33 am A decade ago my step kids and son in law did a long term construction job in a New England state. At the end of the job and with winter coming on, everyone was “laid off” because of the weather break. We’re all in Southern, low unemployment benefits states but since the job was in the NE, they all filed there. The atmosphere was much less combative as to how long you planned to be unemployed and the weekly check was well over twice the size of the local ones. The guys were never hassled once about looking for work in the winter. Let’s hope the state you work in has higher benefits and lasting longer.
Juicebox Hero* February 3, 2025 at 9:39 am Once, thanks to a nasty bronchitis/sinus infection combo, I had to take several courses of antibiotics that wrought hellfire and damnation upon my digestive system for months after the infection was gone. You can guess where I’m going with this. My coworkers were nothing but kind and concerned. A couple of them helped put plastic bags on my car seat so I could go home and clean up, and the next day, my chair and everything else were clean. Despite all the crapheads out there, more people really are kind and understanding, more than you might think.
I'm just here for the cats!!* February 3, 2025 at 9:41 am #1. Do not feel bad. My coworker once had a sudden onset of diarrhea and was wearing a skirt. Everything was cleaned up by our wonderful custodian crew and she luckily had a spare set of clothes. You might not even need to have them purchase a new chair. You should talk with your manager or facilities and see if it can be cleaned. All they’d need is an enzyme based cleaner and a shampoo machine that works for furniture.
My Boss is Dumber than Yours* February 3, 2025 at 9:42 am The answer to “why have policies that aren’t enforced” is to allow selective enforcement as an end-run around discrimination and other worker protection laws. Those policies will never be enforced, but then the first BIPOC employee gets hired, her manager “can’t shake the feeling that she doesn’t fit in”, then BAM she’s written up and fired for not properly setting her away message when using the bathroom.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 12:15 pm The answer to “why have policies that aren’t enforced” is to allow selective enforcement as an end-run around discrimination and other worker protection laws. Not is smart companies. Because that stuff *does* wind up with EEOC / DOL / Court. And companies that do this, generally lose.
Apex Mountain* February 3, 2025 at 9:43 am #1 sounds embarrassing, but I’m not sure why you couldn’t just clean the chair rather than getting a new one
Juicebox Hero* February 3, 2025 at 10:11 am I think LW1 is catastrophizing a bit right now (understandably!) and assuming the chair is ruined. Once LW realizes they don’t need to hide in a cave on Mars for eternity, they’ll know what options are available :)
HonorBox* February 3, 2025 at 9:48 am OP4 – This reminds me of a friend of my family’s. He was a pastor professionally, and part of his negotiation with the parish he served (mine when I was a kid) was a lower salary plus some stipends for vehicles, books/continuing education, and technology. It gave him ownership of those things and lowered his and the parish’s tax hit. But when he moved on to a different church, that stuff all went with him. Because instead of an extra $100 in each paycheck, he had those other things. The way your offer was made, and the way your boss talked about all of the compensation leading you to higher pay, your setup is the same as the pastor. That’s yours. Why else would someone package that with salary if it isn’t supposed to be interpreted as “pay” and therefore yours.
Bronzage* February 3, 2025 at 9:53 am In my younger days before taking medication to manage the situation I’ve bled onto fancy chair in the office of a difficult client (heavy periods, yay). Was too scared to say anything at the time and pushed chair under desk and left without a word. I’ve also bled onto the car seat of a rental car on a long drive with few toilet stops as my job involves remote field work. I offered to clean the car when we got back and return the car hoping my male coworker wouldn’t notice the stain and think I was helpful. I got the stain out no problem and my coworker didn’t say a thing but probably because he was tactful. I’m happy to read the advice on these posts and others because 20 something year old me was mortified. But after going through these experiences and being a bit older and less self conscious I agree with above advice no reasonable would care about the pee. I suspect it’s easier to clean than blood, and chances are they’ve had something similar or worse happen to them so would understand it’s a medical issue not you being gross.
JS* February 3, 2025 at 9:54 am As a woman of a certain age after having kids- I deal with some “surprises” when I cough or sneeze sometimes, too- I promise you are not alone.
Not your typical admin* February 3, 2025 at 10:53 am Seconding this! I promise this has happened to more people than you can imagine.
Juicebox Hero* February 3, 2025 at 10:13 am I think LW is catastrophizing right now, which is understandable.
Adventures in Grad School* February 3, 2025 at 10:04 am LW1, as embarrassing as this feels I think it’s very common. Talking with other women in their mid 30’s onward – many of us pee a little when coughing, sneezing, ect regardless of if we’ve had kids. Heck! My spayed dog has this and takes supplemental estrogen to keep her muscles strong so she doesn’t leak. Obviously some medical conditions cause or exacerbate the issue. I have a family member who can’t laugh intensely or well…you know what happens! My point is that, even though we dont talk about it at work, many people should be very sympathetic if you did need to request a new chair or have some other support. If I were your boss and the chair was extra expensive, I might discreetly look for an upholstery cleaner off site, but there wouldn’t be any judgement behind that.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* February 3, 2025 at 12:14 pm I have read that 1 in 3 women aged 35+ are not reliably continent
Anon for this* February 3, 2025 at 10:14 am As someone who just finally got a completely senseless policy repealed after saying “this is objectively a stupid policy” for more than three years, there are a lot of roadblocks to getting policies updated. Reviewing policies takes time, it’s done by the highest level people in the business (at least where I work, because they want to be sure they approve everything that goes into policy) and there’s a limited number of policies they’ll look at in every given month. Fortunately my boss is one of those people, and I was able to convince him of the policy’s senselessness (and a few others, for that matter), so after months of pushing he was able to get it on the schedule to review and strike from existence.
Save Bandit* February 3, 2025 at 10:15 am LW1, you’ve gotten lots of great advice in the comments about how to clean your chair yourself, but I just wanted to chime in and add my reassurance that you’re not alone! I had such bad bladder prolapse from having my babies that I eventually got surgery to repair it. Before the surgery, however, I would pee at the drop of the hat. At one point a few years ago, I got a pretty rough case of covid that left me with a cough so bad that I’d almost throw up at points. You can only imagine how much I was peeing my pants during that awful time! I got one horrific coughing fit at work that was so bad I peed through my pants, onto my chair, and on the carpet in my office. I was MORTIFIED. I had to tie a sweater around my waist to walk down to the bathroom, grabbed some cleaning supplies on the down-low, and came back to my office and had a little cry as I did my best to clean it up. I did some version of the cleaning suggestions mentioned in the comments here the next day, and no one ever ended up knowing.
Raisin Walking to the Moon* February 3, 2025 at 10:38 am #2 / LW2 / OP2 I am having a strikingly similar situation and I’m not comfortable going to HR in my case because it will be obvious that the report came from me, and we work so closely together. I really wish Alison had different advice, since it feels like all I can do is keep babysitting my manager.
Just Thinkin' Here* February 3, 2025 at 10:40 am LW 5 – unemployment benefits are paid through employer taxes. The unemployment tax would go to the state you worked in. Unless the states have some special reciprocity agreement, then you would file for unemployment benefits in the state you worked in. Your home state may provide supplemental benefits, but unlikely. Federal government pays for unemployment through the UCFE program, operated by the DOL. They reimburse after-the-fact for unemployment claims to former Fed employees. Reimbursement goes to the state where you worked. For those commenting about the DC unemployment, the district/city could easily be overwhelmed if there is mass layoffs, although MD and VA could also be impacted depending upon the agencies involved.
YesPhoebeWould* February 3, 2025 at 10:42 am Regarding #2, there are many reasons to have enforced policies. For many certifications (such as SOC 1 and ISO certifications), you are required to have certain policies in order to pass the certification. It is very common for some of these to not be terribly applicable to a specific company, so they are not enforced, or only sparingly. Others are aspirational policies. A policy that “allows for” work from home may be in place because that is something that might be worked towards, but isn’t in place yet. In the governance literature, there is actually a heart debate about “descriptive versus aspirational” policies. Should policies described what is happening and expected now? Or should they be used to motivate progress to something in the future that a company wants to get to, and can use policies as a way to organizationally prioritize working towards them.
Ann* February 3, 2025 at 10:49 am Not exactly the same but when I was in labor with my son my water broke over my office chair, staining it. It was embarrassing but I lived to tell the tale. It’ll be ok.
LAM* February 3, 2025 at 10:52 am LW2, another reason is that managers might not have the resources (time being the biggest) to fully enforce policies. My government department has records management duties, and we have a number of policies because of legislation. But there’s only a handful of us and more and more records get created everyday. Things are going to slip through the cracks, so it’s more about enforcing the big things like long retention and higher likelihood of audits. Sadly, the penalties for not bring compliant are low and it has to be pretty gross negligence for any of these penalties to apply. Managers might want better compliance, but it’s hard to monitor. File naming is another one. We would be spending weeks renaming files and weeding duplicates just for one packet. Our policies are there to help steer people in bring consistent and to give accountants some power to tell llama groomers to name their files in a specific way. Humans will be humans, but there’s less variety because of policy. Also, by the time something gets to me, the amount of the process has been skipped is so much that the capital needed to get people to redo work is too high to maintain good working relationships. Getting their bosses involved to improve compliance going forward is more worthwhile to do. I’d love if we had the time and people. But since I don’t, I have to pick my battles on when to push for policy compliance.
Marshmallow* February 3, 2025 at 10:53 am This may have already been mentioned but there are a number of enzyme products on the market specifically for urine on soft fabrics. If you want to try to deal with it yourself to save face you could order some and try to see if that fixes it. I have one at home called “urine gone” for pet accidents and it works great! Maybe see if there are any human specific ones or if the pet ones will work. Even if you let facilities deal with it they may try one of these cleaners too! Also… no shame. Bodies are bodies. I have definitely peed myself at work. I even had to go home once for a small surprise diahrreah (I don’t know how to spell that) incident (no furniture was affected luckily). I also heard so many stories from operators in the plant about when they “shit their pants” at work. Many of them had spare pants at work for such reasons! It happens to adults more than you might think!
Nikko82* February 3, 2025 at 11:12 am I’m not sure why LW1 didn’t try to clean the seat? if not right away but as soon as possible instead of letting it sit there and fester?
Dahlia* February 3, 2025 at 1:08 pm Not right away because they had to clean themselves first and that might have included going home to change clothing. Possibly not right away because most people don’t have that kind of access to cleaning supplies at work. A couple of clorox wipes isn’t going to do it.
Letter Writer 1* February 3, 2025 at 7:10 pm I tried to use some wet wipes to clean it, but was unsuccesful. I didn’t have anything else to clean with.
SunnyShine* February 3, 2025 at 11:15 am LW2 – as a manager, if I don’t support a policy, it’s because the policy is more harmful than helpful. Despite my feelings, I’ve agreed to uphold the policies and try to do so. Some policies are tone deaf though. I usually bring it up to HR. As they try to figure it out, I won’t address it with my people.
London Calling* February 3, 2025 at 11:27 am If this helps, OP, many of us have been in similar situations https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/i-wet-my-pants-at-my-new-job.html
Superanonforthis* February 3, 2025 at 11:33 am LW1: This is the height of mortification for me, but I’m sharing to hopefully give you some reassurance that you’re not alone. A couple of weeks ago, I was having pretty significant issues with hemorrhoids, and since I don’t have much experience with it, I bought some suppositories, inserted one, and went about my day. A couple of hours later, I stood up from my fabric work chair and saw an oily stain. The suppository had apparently melted and leaked out, through my clothes. I didn’t even feel it happening until it was too late. I had to go home to change because there was no removing it at work. I scrubbed my chair with a disinfectant wipe as discreetly as I could, but the oily spot is still there, albeit faded. This morning while I was in a meeting, a coworker borrowed my chair, then when he gave it back, he pointed at the spot and joked that he hadn’t caused it. I wanted to *die*. I plan to try something else to clean it as soon as I have some more privacy, but being a woman scrubbing away at her chair in an office full of men is just…so awkward. Also: never again will I see a stain on an office chair and think, “Eh, it’s probably just coffee.”
Resentful Oreos* February 3, 2025 at 12:20 pm Dear LW1 – please do not be ashamed! You live in a body, and bodies sometimes do funny things like leak when you cough. You might need to have the chair professionally cleaned (though try Nature’s Miracle first – it really is a miracle) – but unless you work with snotty teenagers, who make fun of everything and everyone, your coworkers will be sympathetic. Believe me, lots of us have been there and done that!
London Calling* February 3, 2025 at 1:03 pm I came across a great comment (actually about health anxiety but applicable in this case) – The body is very noisy. Healthy human bodies produce all sorts of physical symptoms that might be uncomfortable, unexpected, and unwanted, but not dangerous. And that if your body can embarrass you, it will. Be that incontinence in a meeting, an ill timed fart or belch, or just a rumbling stomach (mine) that caused a uni lecturer to tell a whole class ‘well I could explain further but it sounds like some of you want your lunch.’
OlympiasEpiriot* February 3, 2025 at 12:23 pm Do we think that federal employees will actually be permitted unemployment benefits? Sorry to ask this, but, there is such chaos.
Nauseously Nervous Fed* February 3, 2025 at 12:36 pm What if you work overseas for the federal government? Does your state of legal domicile have to pay or are you SOL?
Pet Patrol* February 3, 2025 at 12:43 pm Is it terrible that now I’m hoping for a letter headed “I deliberately peed on a fabric chair at work”? I suppose the most likely version would be written by an animal co-worker.
Resentful Oreos* February 3, 2025 at 12:53 pm “Dear Alison, I deliberately revenge peed on my boss’s fabric chair at work. Did I mention I am a cat? Sincerely, Fluffy.” I had a revenge pee-er, though she never got the opportunity to pee on a work chair.
Little Miss Helpful* February 3, 2025 at 2:07 pm ‘My new coworker keeps trying to sniff my butt! I slashed him with my nails, but my supervisor said he was “Just trying to be friendly” and “we all need time to adjust” so I pissed on her chair.’
Letter Writer 1* February 3, 2025 at 7:00 pm Funnily enough I do have a cat who has occasionaly revenge peed. When my wife and I got married we had to leave her home alone for a few days and our cat was NOT happy. When we returned the cat made a point of peeing on the train of my wedding dress.
Andrea* February 3, 2025 at 1:07 pm I have read through all of these and don’t see the most common reason we have policies that don’t get enforced at my employer: because they were demanded by shareholders who have no idea how the business works. We had record profits after moving to a flexible hybrid work schedule, and the response from the shareholders wasn’t “wow, that was a great way to increase productivity!” It was “wow, imagine how much higher profits would have been if we HADN’T let employees out of our sight for 8 hours a day!” And they reversed the policy and required us to be in office. And most of the managers saw with their own eyes that their employees were more productive when they were able to be a little bit flexible, so they don’t enforce it.
Kevin* February 3, 2025 at 2:15 pm LW2, Pretense. Instead of openly firing someone for discriminatory or personal reasons, they can couch the firing behind a supposed breach of policy. If the policy is only applied arbitrarily like this, the fired person can technically challenge the firing, but realistically won’t be able to collect proof that the policy is mere pretense.
Observer* February 3, 2025 at 11:57 pm That’s actually not true. It happens surprisingly often that companies do lose such cases.
Jessica* February 3, 2025 at 4:05 pm For story number 1. Go online and look for a product called My Pet Peed. It’s amazing for removing stains and smells of that nature. And don’t be embarrassed….I think we’ve all had those times where we coughed or sneezed so hard there was an unintended bodily function.
The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2* February 3, 2025 at 5:02 pm The stipend situation. Yeah, when I left one job I had two laptops. I wanted to return them, and then two different departments got into a pi$$ing contest over who was going to pay for the FedEx shipping label. Finally I sent out an e-mail = “I’m going off for some time to enjoy my retirement. If you want your laptops back, make an appointment to come and get them, if you can’t determine the simple matter of a FedEx label.” My former manager got involved and the box arrived two days later. Somehow I managed to get the stipend issue conflated with the urination competition in this poat.
Smurfette* February 4, 2025 at 4:53 am OP2, in addition to what Alison said – sometimes in very large companies, people aren’t aware of all the policies. Even managers. The bigger the company, the more policies they have. And new policies or policy changes are often not communicated well. Something else that’s a factor is how often the policy is needed. – You must come into the office 1 day a week – easy to remember – If you run out of personal leave, you can go into “negative leave” for X many days, where X = years of tenure – difficult to remember Sometimes the policy can be ignored at your manager’s discretion. At most companies I’ve worked for, you can’t take more than 3 days of sick leave in your first 6 months. If you need more, you have to take it from your “holiday leave”. I got covid in my second month and was off for a week. I negotiated with my manager to go into “negative” sick leave rather than having it deducted from my holiday leave. That was possible because I had worked for these people previously and had some capital from that. The last thing I’ve seen (again in big companies) is that policies often address 80% of situations, and not all the edge cases. So if the policy is that you must wear closed shoes (because most people are working in the warehouse), that might not be relevant to office staff who never go into the warehouse.
HalesBopp* February 4, 2025 at 2:00 pm LW #2 – Don’t discount that policies may not have been reviewed (or updated) in recent history! While we’ve implemented a number of changes to individual policies over the years, last year our HR team sat down to review our full policy manual (possibly for the first time ever). There were a number of policies which were super outdated but did not have a disciplinary impact, which is likely why they had not been flagged previously. For example, we had a policy that non-exempt employees could take PTO in half hour increments, but exempt employees could only take PTO in half day increments. I thought this may be some federal guideline. Nope! The only reason this policy existed was an HR manager of yesteryear had said, “If you’re exempt, and it’s under four hours, you can just flex your schedule, no need to take PTO.” While that maybe makes sense in theory, it absolutely did not account for the scheduling commitments of some our exempt staff. Everyone can now take PTO in half hour increments :)
Tigersmom* February 5, 2025 at 3:01 am LW1: Many years ago my water broke at work! My OB ordered me to stop work about a month before my due date due to high BP. I went back for a couple of hours so my coworkers could throw a baby shower. It was very obvious and they enjoyed pointing out the chair where it happened forever! But were sympathetic at the same time. Baby boy was born healthy a couple of days later after I was induced, 3 weeks early.