my boss thinks our obnoxious coworker is funny, medical tech proselytized to me, and more

by Alison Green on February 13, 2026

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. A medical tech repeatedly proselytized to me

An experience I had recently with a medical provider has me wondering if what I felt to be inappropriate and unprofessional is a behavior worth raising with my doctor, who owns the practice.

I live in area of the south where most people assume that everyone is Christian and believes in God — the kind of place where wishing someone “Happy Holidays” is likely to result in a tonally aggressive reply of “Merry Christmas.” Usually I let religious speak in various businesses just roll off me.

I recently underwent TMS treatment for chronic, major depression. As part of that, I received 36 treatments that required me to go to my psychiatrist’s office every weekday for five-minute sessions with one of the techs. Early in the treatment, the tech would reference God and how he helped her, and I just let it ride and wouldn’t engage. But by the final two weeks, she escalated to asking me about my own beliefs. I eventually told her I’m not religious. She spent the next few sessions telling me that if I would just let God into my life, that would make all the difference. I expressed discomfort with the topic (clearly and directly), but she persisted.

So my question is whether this is worth mentioning to the psychiatrist on my next visit. This is most definitely not a religiously-affiliated practice. Part of me feels terrible about the idea of getting her in trouble. I do believe she meant well. Plus, I have to go to the office every few months and will likely encounter her as she is in the front office when not administering treatments. So that could be awkward. But I’m also highly annoyed that I was repeatedly proselytized to while essentially a captive audience. What do you think? Would you want this behavior reported to you if it were your employee?

Without any doubt whatsoever, I would strongly want to know about it! In fact, I would be horrified if I found out this had been going on and no one had told me. Hopefully your doctor feels the same way.

The tech is representing the medical practice and the doctor; she’s not there to proselytize, and you’re not there to be proselytized to. It would be wildly inappropriate under any circumstances, but the fact that she persisted after you asked her to stop makes it even worse.

Tell your doctor what happened. Say it was frequent and persistent, and she didn’t stop after you asked her to, and say that you don’t come there to be proselytized at.

Read an update to this letter. 

2. My boss thinks our obnoxious, racist coworker is funny

My workplace has become increasingly toxic due to poor management and enabling of inappropriate behavior. Our manager is a bully who operates by singling out team members while cultivating favorites and gossiping about colleagues. Her current favorite is Ryan, a 25-year-old man in his first professional role who has been with the team for two years. While Ryan is fundamentally a nice person, he lacks professional maturity. The rest of the team consists of women at least twice his age, some of whom actively encourage his behavior because they want to be in his good graces.

Because Ryan is protected by our manager, he faces no consequences for increasingly disruptive behavior:
* Constant crude humor (fart jokes throughout the day)
* Physical pranks (lowering colleagues’ chairs while they’re working)
* Graphic discussions of his sex life
* Showing explicit images to female colleagues
* Making racist and anti-immigrant comments

When I’ve tried to address this, some colleagues tell me I’m being “uptight” and that he “improves the vibe.” Our manager witnesses much of this behavior and either laughs along or gives him minimal warnings. I’m concerned that making a formal complaint will result in workplace retaliation, both from the manager and from colleagues who see Ryan as popular.

How can I professionally address his behavior without isolating myself or becoming a target?

How’s your HR? Ideally you’d report what’s happening to HR (meaning both Ryan and your manager) and specifically say that you’re concerned about retaliation from your manager and coworkers for reporting it, and ask them to take clear steps to ensure that doesn’t happen. Legally, they’re obligated to do that; permitting a manager to retaliate against an employee for making a good-faith report of harassment or discrimination is illegal — and employment lawyers will tell you that retaliation can be a lot easier to prove than harassment or discrimination is. But companies break the law in this area all the time, so you’d want to have some idea of how your company’s HR handles things.

If HR isn’t an option, the other option is to call it out in the moment and not be deterred by coworkers saying you’re too uptight. Sample language:
* “I don’t want to hear about your sex life. Please stop talking about it.”
* “Don’t use language like that around me.”
* “That’s an awful thing to say.”
* “You could hurt someone doing that, and you’re putting the company at legal risk.”
* “If you show me photos like that again, I’ll ask HR to tell you to stop.”
* “This is getting really boring.”

But there’s no way to push back on Ryan that guarantees you won’t become a target yourself, particularly with the sort of manager you described. Can you work on getting out of there?

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty skeptical that Ryan is a nice person.

Related:
how to deal with a racist coworker
is it worth going to HR about a bad manager?

3. When the reference-checker is an employee I fired

At a former job, two employees on my team were Philip and Elizabeth. Elizabeth’s work was okay, but she was a toxic personality and I ended up terminating her employment. (There is of course more to this story but it isn’t relevant to my question.) Philip and Elizabeth were peers and I believe got on fine. Philip was a great employee. He and I have since also both left for other companies.

Philip reached out asking me to be a reference for a new job, and I am very happy to do so. However I just heard from the recruiter with his potential new employer and the person they want to set me up to talk about Philip with is Elizabeth, who now works there. I fired her not quite two years ago, and I absolutely do not want to talk to her. Nor can I imagine she’d want to talk to me. And I don’t want to harm Philip’s chances. He knows I fired Elizabeth but not any specifics.

What do I do? I’m leaning toward telling the recruiter I’m happy to recommend Philip but Elizabeth and I have a negative history. But obviously this employer must like Elizabeth so I’m concerned anything I say will reflect badly on Philip. Tell Philip he should find another reference? Help!

I agree with your instincts! Tell the recruiter that you enthusiastically recommend Philip but that you have a complicated history with Elizabeth, having worked together in the past, and so you wonder if there’s someone else there who you could offer the reference to instead.

If the recruiter says Elizabeth is the only option — well, ideally you’d suck it up and do it … but if you think that’s likely to harm Philip’s chances, then at that point you should lay it out for him and ask how he’d like to handle it. Sample language for that: “I’m happy to give anyone who asks a glowing reference for you but, between the two of us, there’s some tension between Elizabeth and me, and I don’t want that to hurt your chances at this job. Would you like me to go ahead and talk to her, or would you rather give them someone else to speak to?”

4. Does “don’t take a counteroffer” apply when both offers are internal?

I really appreciated the post that gathered all of your advice on counter offers together in one place! I’ve been curious whether your advice changes when the second offer is an internal one?

How do you approach things when you’ve been holding out for and/or been promised a promotion or a new role
that’s taking forever to materialize — but accepting an interview (or getting an offer, keep your fingers crossed for me!) in another department gets your current leader to make the dangled promised position materialize? Do the same principles apply as when it’s two companies vying for you?

A lot of the same principles apply: you still want to ask yourself why it took you being ready to leave for your manager to get it together for you, and whether it’ll be a similar battle to get other things you’ve earned in the future. And the same caveats apply about making sure they’re really going to follow through on their promises, not resume dragging their feet once the immediate crisis of you leaving is averted. The piece that can be different is that your company is less likely to see you as “disloyal” (a ridiculous concept regardless) — but you should weight the other factors pretty heavily.

{ 314 comments }

{ 314 comments… read them below }

  1. Katia Joy*

    #2, I’m not just skeptical Ryan is a nice person, I’m almost sure he’s not. Professional maturity failings from nice people are mundane things like not realising you shouldn’t talk about your hobbies for too long in meetings. What you’re witnessing reflects on his character. Actually nice people aren’t engaging in sexual harassment (which showing people unwanted explicit images is), racism and pranks that could get people hurt.

    A lot of this is really troubling and could do serious harm, especially with your bad manager enabling it. Please speak up to whoever is appropriate in your organisation.

    1. RLC*

      Ryan sounds offensive and potentially a danger to others, and his manager’s attitude is condoning or even encouraging a toxic workplace.
      I’ve worked with many nice people who lacked professional maturity – those are the characters who chewed with their mouth open, wiped muddy boots on furniture, overshared about their toilet habits, and generally acted like toddlers. Sometimes annoying, and typically harmless.
      Ryan is a menace and a liability to the organization.

      1. Grumpy Daddy*

        Ryan, your boss, and all your coworkers, sound like massive d-bags. I’d focus on leaving them in the rear-view mirror, where you can watch them overheat for the hot young racist from a safe distance.

      2. March*

        Worse: Ryan sounds like he’s (growing to be) an actual asset, to *this* particular house-of-rabid-bees-ass company. Unless LW lives in an absolute employment-desert, their best bet would be to get the hell out of there. It’s not going to get any better and it’s almost certainly going to get much worse.

    2. Richard Hershberger*

      Yup: Not realizing that some people don’t appreciate the inherent funniness of a fart joke is one thing. But the list went downhill from there, and fast.

      1. Lydia*

        Exactly this! The constant fart jokes are boorish and easily addressed. Everything else? He’s a horrible person and so’s the manager.

      2. Jessastory*

        If there wasn’t so many things, I’d give him the benefit of the doubt on the chair thing since he’s being encouraged by management and he’s young enough he may well not realize that could hurt someone. But the explicit images just to female coworkers? The racist, anti-immigrant comments? He’s NOT a nice guy

      3. Ellie*

        Indeed. The first couple of dot points were annoying and unprofessional, but probably not a personal reflection on Ryan and his values. By the time we got to, ‘Showing explicit images to female colleagues’ and ‘Making racist and anti-immigrant comments’ my eyes were standing out on stalks. And he’s done this multiple times? Nah, he’s not a nice person and neither is your manager. Start looking for another job, and submit a complaint to HR while you’re at it.

    3. CityMouse*

      People who tell LW they’re being uptight and the people who protect Ryan are also not nice people. Ryan is not the only racist at LW’S workplace.

      Honestly I’d be looking for another job. A place where multiple colleagues think this guy “improves the vibe”? There’s a deep, deep rot there.

      1. Andrew*

        If there are twelve people at a table, and one is a Nazi, and the others don’t tell them to leave, you effectively have twelve Nazis at the table, right? And the kindest I’ll be to Ryan (who sounds like a textbook example of Affably Evil, AKA “Friendly does not mean good”) is that he might not QUITE reach the level of being literally a Nazi.

        This is not only a toxic work environment, there’s a high chance it meets the legal definition of a hostile one. As others are saying, start polishing your resume. Consulting HR and/or an employment attorney might be useful in the short term, but long-term, a place this toxic and dysfunctional isn’t going to be viable.

        1. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          Thank you for the phrase “affably evil”. It’s clarifying language that sadly will come in all too handy.

          1. Andrew*

            Can’t take credit for it, taken straight from the pop-culture wiki TVTropes. But it’s definitely a useful phrase to characterize people that are polite, friendly, charming… and still utterly unrepentant monsters.

            1. RVA Cat*

              This. Ryan sounds like the kind of popular sociopath who charms his way into power. He is not a safe person and neither are his enablers.

      2. Observer*

        A place where multiple colleagues think this guy “improves the vibe”? There’s a deep, deep rot there.

        You put your finger on the thing that was bugging me the most – and this is a letter that has a LOT to be bugged about.

        LW, please start working on getting out of there. Because the place seems to be warping your sense of norms. All of the people telling you that Ryan is *not* a “nice person” who simply lacks maturity are 100% correct. That fact that you seem to not see that concerns me. And in the meantime, keep reading this site, and finding other sources and connections that help keep you grounded.

      3. EducationMic*

        Exactly. Any place where a majority of people think the vibes are improved by sexual harassment and racism is so deeply rotten. Anyone who has been exposed to his behavior and still says that is gross. GTFO.

        1. I&I*

          I suspect the way he ‘improves the vibe’, given the manager is a bully, is that his actions:

          1. Lower the standards of dignity for everyone else.

          2. Provide a contrast so the manager less fratbro bullying style looks less unprofessional in comparison.

      4. Ellie*

        Yes, it almost implies that they don’t think they can have fun/be friendly without the racist and sexist humour. Which is just sad really.

        1. Orora*

          As Little Red sings in “Into the Woods”, “Nice is different than good.” That has always stuck with me.

      3. Stuart Foote*

        Poor Hans did nothing except not get a banger song. After they realized what a great song “Let It Go” is, the writers just switched the villain from Elsa to Hans, even though throughout the first half of the movie there is no indication he is anything but a good person Plus, his evil scheme didn’t even help him get anything he wouldn’t have gotten anyway! All he had to do was continue being a nice guy and he would have been married to a queen who didn’t have much interest in ruling.

        1. Lenora Rose*

          I have said before there are plenty of ways they could have made Hans more nuanced in the movie; “Sorry, Anna, I don’t love you enough to give you a true love kiss. You were a handy and bearable way out from under 12 older siblings, but nobody really falls in love in a couple of hours.”

          But they didn’t.

          And in the musical, they don’t give his arc that much nuance but they do paint against the pure nice guy view in the first half. They give him at least a demi-banger song, and scenes where he’s helping the people in the sisters’ absence — and talking publicly about his love for Anna, while using it to take over, and get the people on his side — and undermine any authority the sisters might have when they came back. If you don’t know he’s the villain going in, it sounds like a hero song until you think about it harder than you’re likely to for two minutes or so.

        2. Kiriana*

          Yeah I’ve never even seen the movie but I read a really great (-sounding, at least) analysis of how they seem to have pretty clearly been writing him as a genuine love interest, like moments they showed where no one was around so he shouldn’t have been acting, and then the switch comes out of nowhere. Obviously I can’t know how accurate it is but it certainly came across thoughtful and well-versed in cinematic tropes.

    5. DJ Abbott*

      There were men and boys like this where I grew up, and my impression is they were actually hostile. Their “jokes” and “pranks” were ways of lashing out while pretending to be friendly and nice.
      I don’t remember much racism, probably because all of us were white, but they were very quick to lash out at women.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I do remember one though, when I was young and in a fast food job. We had a new colleague. Some of us were hanging out after work, and this colleague said casually, “I don’t associate with n——s”
        He didn’t know the stepfather of the white, blue-eyed woman he was talking to was Black, and her boyfriends we had met were also Black.
        She wasted no time going to management. He was gone by the end of the week. :D

    6. WillowSunstar*

      If I worked with a Ryan and it was clear the boss was protecting him, I’d be trying to change jobs.

      1. Abogado Avocado*

        Dear LW, Alison is right on. This tolerance for Ryan’s actions has created a hostile work environment. My thoughts? Please writing everything down! Nothing prevents you from keeping a daily diary at home, as in: “3-1-2026 – R told 2 fart jokes, described last weekend’s hookup in operations mtg, and made M (WF over age 40) fall on floor when R moved her chair seat down as prank. Manager laughed at all R’s actions and words, and when I protested, said I needed to lighten up.”

        Even in these difficult days, the EEOC loves documentation and a diary can help show that Ryan’s actions (and your manager’s tolerance of them) are pervasive and ongoing. Also, a diary allows you to be specific when when drafting a written complaint to HR or your boss or when you’ve gotten another job and tell them you’re quitting because Ryan and the manager’s actions have made continuing intolerable.

        I’m sorry you’re going through this horrible situation. Please keep us updated.

    7. MCMonkeyBean*

      I’m 100% sure he is not; “nice” is fundamentally in opposition to open racism and sexual harassment.

      I honestly will never understand why “he’s a nice guy, but…” is like the go-to framing for any story about someone on the internet. Why do people seem to think it will reflect badly on them if they don’t say a bad person is secretly good? I guess I get it when it’s a story about your boyfriend and you’re trying (probably unsuccessfully) to cut off the people who will tell you to dump him. But a random coworker? It’s okay to not think someone is nice! Frankly, I would judge anyone who *does* think Ryan is nice.

      1. Paulina*

        The impression I usually get is that the person writing in (with the “he’s a nice guy, but…) framing, is trying to explain or excuse why they’re torn about what to do. The LW at least says they’re reluctant to make a complaint because they’re concerned about retaliation, but in some similar stories there’s also a “I want him to change but not get him in trouble” concern.

        And yes, Ryan is not nice. He doesn’t even care that nobody else there does the sort of fratboy behaviour that he does, as long as he’s catered to.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it might be that people are multifaceted and while I agree that Ryan is most certainly not a good guy, he has probably done some nice things – it’s pretty uncommon for anybody to only do horrible stuff – and we are kind of socialised to believe we should be “fair” to people, that it’s not “nice” to only focus on the bad, that that “makes us as bad as them.”

        I don’t think they necessarily think it will reflect badly on them. It’s more like…trying to give an accurate rounded picture and clarify that he doesn’t just spend his whole day every day making sexual and racist comments and that the people who like him probably like him despite those rather than because of them.

    8. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Yeah, reading that, I felt like the standard for “nice” for men in our society is “he hasn’t engaged in physical violence in my presence” or some other bar so low that it’s subterranean.

      1. Moira's Rose's Garden*

        Somewhere on the interwebs I read a blog post that discussed how many of our cultural narratives, memes, and mores are designed to scrub (white) men’s reputations clean. I’ve never gotten it out of my head, and not only can’t I unsee it, it feels like there are more examples daily.

    9. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Exactly. Someone who is a nice person with professional immaturity will change and improve as they learn and mature. When told to stop making fart jokes, they stop. When their racism is pointed out, they stop saying racist things at work (and ideally do some good hard thinking and change their racism, too). When told to stop talking about their sex life at work, they realize it was a mistake.
      It’s been two years, he’s not changing. He isn’t a nice person.

    10. morethantired*

      Exactly this. Ryan is not “fundamentally a nice person.” Ryan is someone who pushes boundaries to see exactly how much he can get away with. Ryan knows how to act towards certain people so that he gets away with more. Ryan is a jerk who knows how to use niceness to manipulate people.

    11. Qwerty*

      I suspect it is more “Ryan is nice when he’s not being awful” or “Ryan is great when no one else is around”

      A big thing I learned in school is that most of the people who bullied me where actually really great to hang out with if none of their friends were around. Which is really really confusing. In my younger years I was good at getting these people to change (I had more patience then) so I get the mental categorization of whether someone seems “redeemable” or not.

      1. Lenora Rose*

        IME, this is more true if they are the hangers-on or the periphery of the really bad people. The folks who (maybe) think “that was racist but everyone else is laughing so I’ll make like mine wasn’t a titter from shock.” So maybe some of the people who seem to like Ryan can be steered down a better path or be fine to hang out with. But Ryan is the instigator, not the follower.

      2. Andrew*

        So, your classmates in school were like bleach and ammonia? Tolerable and even useful separately, but horrendously toxic in combination?

    13. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      A good person wouldn’t be so quick to continue behaviour that they’ve been told someone doesn’t like.

    14. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – Ryan is a walking red flag, and I’m disgusted on the OP’s behalf that anyone is condoning his behaviour.

    15. Miss Woodhouse*

      There is a huge difference between “nice” and “generally friendly” and a bigger gap between “nice” and “life of the party.”

      Ryan is *not* nice.

    16. Ann O'Nemity*

      This is Ryan’s first professional job, which he started at 23. Unfortunately it sounds like this toxic manager has encouraged this frat boy behavior instead of mentoring him about appropriate workplace norms. He’s far from blameless, but I also think the manager is the real villain here!

      1. BlueSwimmer*

        I teach 9th grade, and none of my male students would do any of these behaviors openly in class. They are 14-15 years old and know these things aren’t appropriate (welp, except that they will definitely snicker if one of them farts but they keep it low key).

        Ryan is just a horrid person. None of this behavior is merely youthful indiscretion or lack of knowledge of norms; he is just a gross, racist, sexist harassing bully.

        1. Kyrielle*

          This. I have two teenage kids and either of them would object to what Ryan is doing. Except the fart jokes. Those, they’d giggle at.

          So, *one* thing that Ryan is doing is just not mature and needs coaching in professionalism.

          The rest of it? Is straight up nope.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yup, I teach teenagers and most would know better than to behave like this. At 23? One is about 10 years past the age at which this is excusable.

    17. iglwif*

      Yeah, Ryan is absolutely not a nice person.

      At most, he’s a person who knows how to be nice to people he wants to impress.

    19. Anna23*

      Ryan is a jerk, and a protected one. Who knows how deeply protected he is. There are ‘official’ rules and ‘unofficial’ rules in every workplace, and these are miles apart in your workplace OP. I would rather get out of there than try to fix it by reaching out to HR (if it exists and if it is efficient at all on these matters).

  2. Msd*

    If Elizabeth worked with Philip then I’m confused why she would be checking his references. Or why she would check references with the OP who is their former boss.

    1. Mid*

      It might be policy that you have to check references, and can’t skip them based on personal relationships, to avoid the appearance of bias.

      1. niknik*

        Sounds kinda ineffective. If avoiding bias were the goal, Elizabeth should excuse herself from the application process altogether and get someone else to check the refs. You can’t really “unknow” a person, however professional you are.

    2. Emmy Noether*

      I think a manager does often have insights that a peer wouldn’t have (and often vice versa!), so it makes sense to talk to a candidate’s former manager even if you knew them as a peer.

      This configuration is awkward, though. I wonder how Elisabeth feels about talking to the manager who fired her – it should probably be someone else checking this reference.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I assumed Elizabeth was one of the hiring team for the job Philip was applying for. Like LW fired Elizabeth. Elizabeth then gets a job at Llamas are Us. Llamas are Us are now hiring for an assistant for Elizabeth and Philip applies. So the recruiter wants the LW to talk to Elizabeth and give the reference directly to her.

      They were peers when they worked with LW but in the new job, she would perhaps be senior to him or his boss.

      2. Venus*

        In a large workplace it’s also possible that Philip would be her peer or senior to her. When I was a junior llama groomer I was asked to do reference checks when we were hiring for a range of expertise in llama grooming. In my large company references must be checked for everyone and I hadn’t met any of the applicants. It would be better if the hiring managers had done the reference checks for any applicants with red flags, but in this case the applicants were strong and it was easy for me to have relatively quick, good conversations. “What are their strengths? Weaknesses? Would you want to work with them again?” I would have flagged anything questionable for further assessment, but thankfully everyone had strong, thoughtful references.

    4. Yorick*

      Because you don’t always know everything about a coworker’s work as their coworker, and it can be helpful to speak to a manager.

    5. AF Vet*

      This is what bothers me. If they worked together, did they get along? Otherwise, what’s to stop her from undermining him via the reference check? Does he know she’s part of the hiring team? I’d flag it for both the hiring manager and Philip.

    6. Hyaline*

      While I can see situations where maybe it’s policy and she’s the only one in a position to do so, why the LW’s poor history with her would matter vis a vis Philip is confusing to me. Elizabeth knows and likes Philip…a stranger, sure, maybe affiliation would have a negative effect, but Elizabeth already knows the affiliation here. Is LW sure it’s not that she just really doesn’t want to talk to Elizabeth? Because I wouldn’t want to talk to Elizabeth so I get it but.

      1. Gruber*

        Agreed, I’m not really following the LW’s logic of how her reference could harm Philip, and I think the root issue is that she just doesn’t want to talk to Elizabeth again. Like you, I’d feel the same, but I would grit my teeth and help my former teammate, because that’s an important part of my job as a manager.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I’m not really following the LW’s logic of how her reference could harm Philip

          The LW says Elizabeth “was a toxic personality.” If Elizabeth thinks the LW firing her was unfair and unwarranted, it’s possible that Elizabeth could hear the LW say positive things about Philip and think “LW was a terrible manager who shouldn’t have fired me, I can’t trust anything they say, I’m not going to hire Philip.”

          I think the LW not wanting to talk to Elizabeth again is a fair chunk of the hesitation, but the LW has more insight into Elizabeth’s personality (and professionalism) than we do, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some additional reasons the LW thinks Elizabeth would let her negative feelings towards the LW overshadow any positive things the LW says about Philip.

          1. Claire*

            But if Elizabeth has the power to not hire Philip because of his association with the LW, why would she even bother checking his references? She’s either going to punish Philip for having worked with LW or not, I don’t see why the conversation itself would change that.

            1. Hannah Lee*

              I can easily see how someone with the characteristics OP described Elizabeth as having could, on one hand, not hold it against Philip that he worked with/for OP – in the past, but could, on the other hand, easily hold it against Philip that OP views him positively, is giving him a good reference, going to bat for him to get a job – in the present.

              1. Paulina*

                There’s also the potential that some of the contents of OP’s reference, if it includes descriptions of good things Philip did, could anger Elizabeth. Philip showed a good work ethic — might Elizabeth take that as criticism? Philip accomplished something important — might Elizabeth think that this unfairly took credit for something she thought was a group effort or should have been assigned to her?

                Elizabeth might get along well with Philip now, but OP’s reference could give her more information about Philip’s work for OP that she would not have yet. This could make trouble.

              2. Kiriana*

                Yeah, or like “OP fired me but she likes Philip this much? He’s not better than me!” Currently Elizabeth doesn’t necessarily know that OP thinks Philip was a great employee, she just knows he didn’t get fired before she did. She could think that OP was an unfair mean manager to all their employees. I can absolutely imagine someone with a toxic personality taking it out on Philip that he was appreciated while she wasn’t.

  3. NforKnowledge*

    #2 I wish people would stop using the word nice when what they really mean is not overtly mean (to me). Though if you’ve asked Ryan directly to stop and he persists, even that much isn’t true! Unfortunately many people, like the boss, disagree x(

    1. allathian*

      Agreed. Ryan isn’t nice at all. That said, the manager and older female coworkers are toxic for encouraging that sort of behavior. Is Ryan conventionally attractive? If the whole team except the LW are crushing on Ryan, whether or not they’re willing to admit that even to themselves, it could be the reason why nobody’s been willing to impose any consequences on him.

        1. allathian*

          Good point. I doubt the manager’s terrified of him, but the others might well be. If not terrified of him personally, maybe wary of potential retaliation from the manager.

          I know the job market’s bad at the moment, but I recommend you start looking at other options anyway, LW.

        2. KateM*

          I doubt these who are commenting on OP being “uptight” and Ryan “improving the vibe” are terrified of Ryan or Manager, but according to OP there are only some of them. Maybe OP should seek out the others who don’t say anything.

        3. Observer*

          Or maybe they’re too terrified of Ryan to make waves.

          Unlikely. The manager certainly has enough power to not need to worry. Also, it’s one thing to not stand up to him. It’s another to *actively encourage* him. And that’s what the LW is saying is going on here.

      2. WellRed*

        This is my thoughts he’s “cute” so all the middle aged women are overlooking his behavior (before anyone screams I’m a woman in my 50s). I find his behavior abhorrent.

        1. Observer*

          This is my thoughts he’s “cute” so all the middle aged women are overlooking his behavior

          That’s pretty ageist and sexist – and the fact that you are in the same age bracket doesn’t change that. In fact it sounds a lot like the people who claim to be so different from all the *other* people in their demographic group.

          Reasonable people don’t lose their minds, ethics, or sense just because someone is “cute”. Even middle aged women are perfectly capable of recognizing bad behavior in genuinely cute *children* where actual immaturity could be playing a role, as well as in surface, physically cute adults.

          These people are toxic for encouraging him.

      3. metadata minion*

        The LW says that coworkers encourage him in order to stay in his good graces, which is the wrong thing to do but sounds like it’s coming out of a place of self-defense rather than actually wanting the behavior to continue.

      4. Observer*

        the manager and older female coworkers are toxic for encouraging that sort of behavior.

        100%

        That’s why so many people are saying that the LW should be looking at an exist strategy.

    2. Cats Ate My Croissant*

      Ryan is nice in the same way as those blokes who go on long rants about how ‘females’ never go for Nice Guys like them (aka “I put all these niceness tokens in but sex never fell out”).

      1. Richard Hershberger*

        I am old enough to have grown up before this trope. To me, the connotation of a “nice guy” was a guy who was inoffensive, but kind of ineffective and clueless. The first time I heard “nice guy” in the more recent sense, it quite startled me. But I have come around to recognize the two versions as related. The older version was having trouble getting laid, but most would eventually figure it out. The newer version never did, and internalized this as an integral part of their personalities.

        See also: fedoras. A fedora to me suggests Sinatra. While Sinatra was problematic, he most certainly was cool.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          To expand on your point: the fedora is a good illustration. The new fedora guys think you can buy cool. That if you display the outward tokens of cool (like Sinatra’s fedora), you become cool. Which of course is not how it works at all. Similarly, displaying some superficial outward tokens of nice (buying dinner, opening doors) does not make one nice.

          For both cool and nice, the more you focus only on being perceived as those things, the less you are those things.

          1. Myrin*

            I will never forgive the M’lady guys for co-opting the fedora because I think fedoras are such nice hats. My sister looks amazing wearing hers but she hasn’t for a looong time because of the unfortunate association. :(

            1. Sarah Bernhardt's Right Leg*

              Fedoras are originally women’s hats, too! They’re named after the lead character in the play “Fédora”.

          3. Irish Teacher.*

            I suspect a lot of those guys are so far from being nice that they cannot concieve of anybody actually being nice. To them “niceness” is a list of behaviours you perform when you want something and people are supposed to then give it to you because you’ve given them the perceived “payment.”

            I suspect they assume everybody else is playing by those rules too and all niceness is a fake to get something.

            We heard it pretty much explicitly said in a letter here, not about romance, but the guy who said he wished his university careers centre had informed him that you are supposed to be nice to everybody in the place you are interviewing and not just those actually interviewing you.

            I also once saw a comment on Facebook related to the “nice guy” thing about well, why would anybody be nice if there were no rewards for it.

            They don’t seem to grasp the concept of caring about others. To them everything is about benefiting oneself.

            Which may also contribute to their resentment of “alphas,” who they assume are also pretending but who get believed.

            1. metadata minion*

              So much this. If I were interviewing, yes I might keep in mind the need to be pleasant to everyone I encounter, but that’s to remind myself to interact a little more than usual, smile a little more than usual, rather than greeting the receptionist with my normal mildly robotic respect and then staring at my phone until the interview. I’m don’t need to remind myself not to be a jerk unless I’m, I don’t know, actually in pain and have to remind myself not to yell at the hospital nurse for waking me up at 3am to take my blood pressure.

        2. Hannah Lee*

          “The newer version never did, and internalized this as an integral part of their personalities.”
          In some cases because there are people on the interwebs making money by selling and pushing that narrative, with a side-order of entitlement and resentment, and claiming to have the ‘cheat codes’ to score with babes the NiceGuys think they deserve.

        3. MCMonkeyBean*

          There is “nice guy” vs “Nice Guy,” and the issue is with the latter who are the ones who declare *themselves* to be A Nice Guy and grumble that the world is out to get them and women only sleep with Jerks (a.k.a. all guys who are not them).

        4. Kiriana*

          I was watching a crime show recently where a guy had died right before his wedding and when informing the almost-widow she said that he was a nice guy. The female cop highlighted it later because “When you’re about to get married, he’s a great guy, not a nice guy.” It was pretty clearly intended in the way you’re more familiar with. I think I heard the more recent version first when I was in my teens but the old version’s definitely still around and Ryan does not qualify.

      2. Commanding Nothing and Loving It*

        Two off-topic compliments:

        1) Cats Ate My Croissant is an amazing username for so many reasons (hope the cats didnt get sick though)

        2) I’m a sucker for analogies and “I put in all these niceness tokens but sex never fell out” is the best one I’ve heard in a long time as well just spot on in general. Adding it to my repertoire.

    3. TotsPotato*

      I read her letter as something ironic or sarcastic, not that she actually believes he is a nice person.

    4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      And he IS overtly mean! Lowering people’s chairs while they’re sitting in them and showing them graphic images IS mean.

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      While I agree that Ryan clearly isn’t nice, I can kinda see why the LW (and others who make similar posts say that). Odds are that Ryan does have some positive attributes – it’s relatively uncommon for somebody to be horrible, all the time, in all ways.

      And it can feel kinda mean to just list all somebody’s negative attributes without qualifying them. I can relate to writing something like this and then thinking, “yikes, I’m making it sound like Ryan just spends his whole day going around antagonising everybody for fun and making our workplace utterly horrible to work in at all times, when…he can be nice sometimes and he did help Mary with that really horrible project.”

      This is particularly the case when everybody else seems to like the person and it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking, “maybe I’m being unfair/too judgemental. He must have some positive attributes or other people wouldn’t like him so much. I should probably give a more balanced account.”

      We had a substitute teacher in our school who was a bit of a Ryan light (she was also much older than him – older Gen X – so it’s possible she learnt to tone it down it bit), but she was:
      – openly racist and not in a subtle way, but in a making “jokes” about a doctor being useless at his job due to the country he was from and assuming that if certain immigrant kids were doing well at school, it was probably because they’d be abused at home if they did badly.
      -making personal comments that might just have been meant in a friendly way and come out badly but given the other things, I’m not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt – like commenting on my eating habits or drawing attention to somebody coughing in a way that made them feel self-conscious about it.
      – interrupting conversations to ask about details that weren’t relevant to her, sort of derailing the conversation (like if one Maths teacher asked another “do we still have to teach such a topic given the changes to the course?” then interrupting before the other could answer, to ask, “what changes are these?,” “when did they come in?” “what does that mean you don’t have to teach?” and so on when she is not Maths teacher and doesn’t need to know).
      -comparing our school unfavourably to others she worked in or criticising colleagues to other people, like saying “I heard x is teaching y. I don’t think he should be teaching that topic. It’s too difficult for the students,” when she was new to the school and often didn’t have the context to understand why we were doing things a certain way. Sometimes she was right but sometimes there was a good reason why we weren’t doing what they did, like they were much larger and had funding and resources we didn’t or we had tried it and found it didn’t work for our students.
      – loudly talking out loud to herself or exclaiming.

      But she also did do some helpful things like covering classes for people, passing on and sharing resources, staying late to help with activities.

      And there are times when I get annoyed by one of the more minor things like her talking out loud (and I mean loudly, not just in a normal tone of voice) when I am trying to work or asking questions that are harmless but are just derailing and aren’t relevant to her, I start questioning if I’m being unfair, if maybe she’s just socially awkward or even has something like ADHD or autism or anxiety that I am judging her unfairly because of. And then I remember the racism (and classism) and tell myself, “nope, none of those things explain that.”

      But I am kind of at BEC level with her and if the LW is at a similar level with Ryan, I can see finding it difficult to figure out when she is being too harsh and should qualify things a little.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I really like this example of the mental steps I know I often take when trying to figure out for myself if my assessment of someone / some behaviour is accurate or biased in some way. And also about wanting to make sure that when I’m giving a summary about someone, it leaves an accurate overall impression.

        You’re also right that the people in question aren’t necessarily nice / good people, even if they do sometimes do nice things. The nice things can’t make up for bad things that are as serious as racism.

    6. EducationMic*

      Or “overtly awful but in a friendly or joking tone.” Racism, anti immigration BS, sexual harassment, even messing with peoples furniture (depending on the context, but I’m giving this guy whatever the opposite of the benefit of the doubt is) are not “nice” and go well beyond just “mean.”

  4. Goober*

    LW #1: That kind of behavior is bad enough in any business relationship, but considerably worse in a medical service, and especially egregious in a psychiatrist’s office, where it takes on a whole new level of coerciveness. It isn’t hard to imagine a scenario where it could be *dangerous*, given the relationship between the provider and the patient.

    If the doctor isn’t as appalled as you are, *he* should be reported to the regulatory agency for allowing it.

    1. Mid*

      Seconding this! Report the tech to the doctor, and if the doctor isn’t upset or immediately working to correct it (by making sure you never have to see that tech again and making sure the tech is not taking advantage of people in vulnerable positions to push their religion on them), then you should report that to whatever governing boards exist for your state.

    2. Liane*

      Don’t wait until the appointment. Tell the doctor now. You need assurance you won’t have to deal with that person again.

    3. WellRed*

      Yes, OP, the first or second time this happened would have been totally reasonable to report this, it’s so egregious.

    4. HonorBox*

      I’ve spoken to therapists and there have been general conversations about God. Not specifically Biblical God, but more as a representative of a higher power. And the therapists have taken their cues from me and my comfort level.

      That the LW has expressed discomfort and pushed back and the provider persists and has escalated is problematic for a variety of reasons. Importantly, I think in reporting this, I’d also suggest pointing out to the doctor that in spite of your raised concerns this is continuing, you’re not confident in the care you’re receiving because the provider isn’t actively listening to you and making the sessions about them. That’s not good care.

      1. metadata minion*

        In this case it doesn’t sound like the tech is even a therapist. It makes sense to gently bring up religion in therapy, since that’s something that’s a major part of plenty of people’s lives, whether as a source of stability or a past trauma. But in this case the person is just setting up the equipment for treatment, like if you went in for an EKG or ultrasound or something.

    5. Anon Psych*

      I would agree. There’s a whole undertone of “if you accepted JC as your Lord and Saviour, then you wouldn’t be depressed” which is especially cruel in a psychiatrist’s office. That’s a strong cultural message in some evangelical circles, and I would CERTAINLY want to know if my patients were being exposed to that while receiving care (even beyond my own feelings as a Jew towards Christian proselytizing.)

      I would definitely suggest bringing it up to your psychiatrist. The language you used to describe it to Alison is very clear, and I would just suggest adding a statement of impact, (“It made me feel uncomfortable accessing care/like my beliefs are not respected/like this practice is unwelcoming to non-Christians/etc.”) and a request (“If I need follow-up sessions, I don’t want to see [tech,] or “I would like you to pass on this feedback to the clinic management.”

      If it’s a hospital or large clinic system, there might also be a patient relations office–essentially a place where patients care register concerns or complaints with the care team, where they then escalate it appropriately on your behalf. Not sure it’s an option for you, though.

    6. Popinki*

      And please remember, you’re not getting her in trouble. She’s getting herself in trouble by acting like that. And if she really meant well, she’d stopped when you asked her to.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Cosigning this important point. If the tech gets in trouble, it’s because of her behaviour, not any actions the LW takes to make other people aware of the tech’s behaviour.

      2. EducationMic*

        And it is the provider’s decision what next steps are appropriate to take care of their patients, be that a strict warning, firing, etc. OP it’s not your job to undermine your provider’s ability to care for other patients to protect this tech.

        It’s not your responsibility to stop it either, but don’t let some concept of what would be “your fault” stop you from reporting it.

      3. Ms. Murchison*

        Cosigning this too! This tech is preying on vulnerable people who are making themselves more vulnerable by seeking out help. It is harassment. And if your doctor tries to frame it as freedom of speech instead of harassment, it’s time to find a new therapist.

      4. NotAManager*

        Here to cosign this – she should have known better than to proselytize in a work environment *especially* in a medical environment and *doubly so* in the mental health space. It’s not professional and, for patients who have potentially experienced religious trauma, it could be especially harmful and triggering, the owner of the practice needs to know.

    7. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

      The fact its a psychiatric office is so much worse. Because I am quite sure the advice was — if you just accepted You Know Who into your life, you would be so depressed. This is actively harmful advice.

      If your doctor doesn’t take your complaint seriously — find a new doctor. It’s worth the effort. Because someone who thinks this is okay behavior is probably not going to be great for you in the long run anyway.

      1. Another One*

        I agree. I assumed this was a primary care doctor and was like that’s not awesome.

        But a psychiatrist? That makes it a lot worse.

    8. Andrew*

      This was literally religious harassment. LW# 1 should probably make a complaint. With the current political climate, there’s a higher than normal risk of blowback, though (since it sounds like the tech is an “approved” flavor of Christian and the LW is atheist). Still probably worth it, but mind your reputation.

      1. Observer*

        With the current political climate, there’s a higher than normal risk of blowback, though (since it sounds like the tech is an “approved” flavor of Christian and the LW is atheist).

        The issue here is not that the LW doesn’t agree with the tech’s religious beliefs, though. And the LW should not frame it as “I’m an atheist so I don’t want to hear about it.” But “I came here for medical treatment not religious advice. The tech needs to not try to push that one me.” Perhaps with a side of “The tech implied that I actually don’t really need the treatment because I could just solve all my problems by accepting JC into my life.”

        1. LW#1*

          Observer, I think your last line sums up how I felt perfectly, and I will plan to use it when I talk to my doctor next week.

          1. menopausal ninja*

            Hi LW1! I am a doctor (physician) and I 100% support you. This person absolutely cannot be doing this. If this were my employee I would want to know and I would do my level best to stop them and then to terminate them if it didn’t improve.

          2. SweetFurg*

            Hi LW#1! Please do! I am in the middle of my TMS treatment and everyone on staff has been nothing but kind and professional with me everyday. I am appalled this topic to come up so much during your treatment and that it did not immediately cease once you clearly and directly pushed back. Please do share it with your psychiatrist, because it is simply unacceptable for you and for all other patients under this tech’s care.

        2. Hannah Lee*

          I agree – I don’t think that LW’s personal beliefs and how they don’t align with this tech’s proclamations are the main issue at all.

          It’s that they are coming in for a specific *medical* treatment prescribed by OP’s doctor, and are being repeatedly preached and proselytized at by a care provider who is focusing on THAT instead of what they are supposed to do, and not taking feedback to stop.
          I’m pretty sure there is no medical billing code for “Blast your religious beliefs at patient” That does not belong in these appointments, in any way shape or form.
          (FWIW, I consider myself a Christian and would find that tech’s behavior unacceptable and uncomfortable too. And would nope out of ever seeing that tech ever again. The appointment is to receive TMS therapy, NOT a religious lecture.)

          1. metadata minion*

            Totally. Even if the tech happened to share exactly my flavor of Judaism, if it was a conversation any more religious than sharing hamentaschen recipes, that’s something that’s very personal and intimate for me, and I don’t want to have a conversation about it with a near-stranger unless I’m at an event where that’s specifically what I’ve signed up to do.

          2. MissMuffett*

            Same, I’m a Christian and I still don’t want people in a lot of settings – but especially medical and ESPECIALLY psychiatric – talking to me about their (and by extension, my) faith. Time and place, people. Sometimes patients might invite the conversation but the tech, as an employee, should not be the one initiating it.

        3. Andrew*

          I’m not sure it’s completely irrelevant, but I’ll agree that even if the patient is 100% in agreement with the employee on religious matters, “at a medical office during treatment” is neither the time nor the place for that discussion!

        4. Glitter Candle*

          I consider myself a Christian, and this would hella get on my nerves. This is neither the time nor the place.

        5. Kiriana*

          The tech could well be saying the same thing to people who do believe the same things as them, which is basically just repeatedly grinding it into them that they’ve failed at fixing their medical problem by not believing or praying hard enough.

      2. LW#1*

        Andrew, yes, this is a concern, and you stated it more clearly than I could have. I am very careful to guard my lack of religious beliefs most of the time because that lack absolutely could blow back negatively on me, both professionally and personally (personally with my circle of acquaintances v. friends). I grew up here (but have lived in more progressive places as well) so am used to not being able to be fully seen except with close friends. But it felt so offensive to have religion pushed at me in this particular context, and I do plan to raise it with my doctor and an appointment next week. I’m curious to see how he responds. Thanks for your comment!

        1. Spreadsheet Queen*

          I’m an actual Christian and this would offend me! I think a complaint is warranted. BUT, I also don’t know how far you’re going to get with it in the South.

          I say this after having complained to the national level of my professional organization about a presentation that was held in my city (but broadcast to the membership nationally, and recorded for the national organization – so they had access to the entire content!) The presentation wasn’t great to begin with, but the main problem(s) is that the presenter opened with a prayer, included a biblical reference during the presentation, and closed with a prayer. The national organization (in the DC area, which is a less Southy part of the South) was all “we got such good feedback on this presentation” and basically blew me off.

          I’ve adjusted to all kinds of prayer at company meals and prayer at public events, etc. but a nationally broadcast professional development was a bridge too far. Fat lot of good it did to complain, but at least there was no blow back (which is why I didn’t complain to my local chapter).

          I wish people would be more considerate of the fact that people don’t all have the same religion or that some people don’t have a religion and WE DON’T WANT TO HEAR IT!

        2. Andrew*

          I believe there’s a Bible verse you could reply with along the lines of “if they don’t want to hear it, brush the dust off your clothes and walk away,” if you want to use that angle.

          Also keep in mind that a lot of the really pushy preacher types are victims themselves (especially fringe/disputed Christian groups like JW or LDS). The leaders of cult-ish movements or flat-out cults insist on them proselytizing that intensely because they KNOW it will push people away. The intent isn’t to gain converts (although they won’t exactly turn away fresh thralls), it’s to isolate their existing congregants and deepen the leader’s power and control.

          (That doesn’t in any way obligate you to endure harassment, mind you! But most of your scorn should be directed at the manipulative wolf-in-shepard’s-clothing that instigated it, not their patsy.)

    9. epicdemiologist*

      Seconding this. If this person thinks that God is the solution to LW#1’s medical problems, would they even deliver the treatment as prescribed? Big picture, they need a different career; small picture, they don’t need to be involved in LW1’s treatment.

      1. Andrew*

        Good point! What’s to say this tech isn’t going to pull a “Mary from HR” from a couple weeks ago and directly refuse to do their legally-mandated job based on their beliefs? (As I noted above though, unfortunately in the current political climate they’d have a very good chance of getting away with it.)

    10. Spero*

      I agree with this so strongly – in no small part because as a resident of the Bible Belt South, there are SO MANY people here are specifically traumatized by their religious institution, abused by faith leaders, deconstructing from religious trauma. While you don’t mention that being part of your lack of belief, it would be absolutely horrific for a person receiving this treatment whose depression stems in part from, say, being sexually abused by a pastor to be proselytized to during the treatment. Report it for them even if you’re unsure of reporting for your own sake.

    11. Elle Woods*

      I agree–especially because this is taking place in a psychiatrist’s office. This tech should not be proselytizing to patients period. That it continues even after you’ve asked them to stop is outrageous and absolutely needs to be reported to your physician immediately. Who knows how many other patients the tech has done this to? Do not feel bad about getting this person in trouble; it’s their own behavior that has gotten them in trouble.

    12. Observer*

      It isn’t hard to imagine a scenario where it could be *dangerous*, given the relationship between the provider and the patient.

      Exactly. This is not just “annoying behavior”.

    13. cathy*

      “If the doctor isn’t as appalled as you are, *he* should be reported to the regulatory agency for allowing it.”

      This!

    15. MCMonkeyBean*

      Yes, proselytizing at work is bad in general–but in this case it sounds like this woman literally told a person coming in for treatment for depression that her depression would go away if she would just accept Jesus Christ as her lord and savior or whatever. That moves it from just inappropriate squarely into full on medical malpractice IMO.

    16. iglwif*

      Yes, what might otherwise just be very annoying behaviour crosses the line into WILDLY TERRIBLE in this context!

  5. Hexiv*

    #1 is horrifying. For those not in the know, when you’re undergoing TMS, you have to come in every day of the week and be basically strapped to the chair, with your head in a fixed position. You can’t turn your head to look up or look down. If something was /really/ wrong, you could tear yourself out of the bonds easily enough, but then the treatment would stop and they’d have to get the doctor in to reset the position and all this stuff, all of which would probably add up to you being in the office longer than you’d planned. So there’s significant situational pressure on you to not move an inch. It’s as close as one can get in a human medical treatment to experiencing the Clockwork Orange machine.

    So attempting to force your religious beliefs on someone in that situation is really awful, it is very much taking advantage of an audience that’s not just captive but like, actively tied down.

    1. Tea*

      Huh, that’s interesting, my TMS experience was not like that! No straps or anything holding me down. But yes, you are stuck in the one position or you have to restart to get your head in the right place.

      1. Hexiv*

        Well, it wasn’t a very serious strap! Just a sticky paper thing. It was sort of for my benefit, because it meant I could wiggle free if I made a voluntary effort, but couldn’t shift myself out of the treatment position just by absent-mindedly shifting my muscles.

        1. stifled creativity*

          TMS Tech here. Depending on the type (deep TMS vrs. Repetitive) or the manufacturer, the machine set up can look really different from one office to another, but the goal and end result are the same. :)

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Does the doctor do the initial setup with you?
      If so, I’d tell both of them right at the beginning that you don’t want religious proselytising but that it happened last time you were treated. Then look at the doctor and pause. If she doesn’t say anything, “please can you instruct your staff member not to force religion on me while I’m undergoing treatment

    3. 2cents*

      One has to wonder how many people just stopped coming because they were uncomfortable with the proselytizing. So this tech is possibly not just being annoying and intrusive but also interfering with people receiving needed medical care.
      In my opinion this is a fireable offense.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Mine too. My experience growing up around people like this is “saving” people is more important than their job.
        If she’s more smart and reasonable than most she might stop with a warning, but I don’t think it’s worth taking the chance. She might keep doing it, and the patients might not report her.

      2. Hannah Lee*

        Especially because in some geographic areas, there may be limited options of care providers/sites who provide this treatment.

        So if this tech drives people – already vunerable people BTW – out of this practice with her egregious behavior, they may not have any other options to get this care, even if they were able to rally the focus and energy to go somewhere else.

    4. Anony*

      I was most certainly not strapped down!

      It’s was a lot more like getting an x-ray done at your dentist office. It just took longer.

      I was strapped down during my initial MRI but that’s standard during an MRI.

      1. metadata minion*

        Oh, interesting! I haven’t been strapped down during MRIs, but it probably depends on which bit they’re scanning. Mine have been cardiac and thyroid. I imagine if they’re scanning your brain it’s more important to keep your head *absolutely* still compared to an organ like the heart that’s going to move a little just by doing its thing.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I’m pretty sure they didn’t strap me down for a brain MRI, but mine was scheduled same-day and in-hospital while in the ER after a fainting episode that led to a concussion, so they may run those differently. (For example, I was not asked if I wanted to pick out music to listen to, which everyone else I know whose had an MRI says is usually part of it. I just got machine noises.) I’m also the kind of person who can get cavities filled without gas and can just hold still for things in general, though. I also may just be mis-remembering some details because I was, you know, in the ER after losing consciousnesses and falling down so my brain was not exactly doing its best work at the time.

          1. skadhu*

            I have never been strapped down—or able to select music! But… the last time I had an MRI, the first song that came on was Pink Floyd, “Welcome to Machine.” It was actually counterproductive to not moving because I started laughing.

            2. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

              I had a brain MRI 10+ years ago and wasn’t strapped down, nor was any music played, of my choice or otherwise. I did get asked to stop moving around, although I hadn’t realized I was moving around, having taken what I thought was the correct dose of Valium based on a prescription for the dog. I also asked the tech why the male doctors weren’t cuter, thankfully not in front of any of them. (Note: dogs have very different metabolisms than people. If you, for example, weigh 120 lbs, do not take two of the Valiums prescribed by a veterinarian for a 60 lb dog.)

              1. Monkeying Around for Money*

                As someone with two dogs within a stone’s throw of my own weight, this insight is both valuable and hilarious!

                I didn’t get any music for my back and neck scan a while back either, it was long enough that I started falling asleep and had to be woken up because I started slumping a bit. 8/10 decent nap.

          2. metadata minion*

            Oh, yeah, that makes sense that if you’ve got a possible injury they’d be more careful. (I get to go to a pediatric hospital for my MRIs, and there they give you special goggles so you can watch a movie ;-) )

        3. Nightengale*

          I’ve had a brain MRI and definitely wasn’t strapped down. I was asked to hold still and was able to do that. I can’t remember if that was the MRI where I got to listen to Pachelbel’s canon or the one where I fell asleep. . .

      2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

        I had a panic attack the last time I had an MRI done, even with an antianxiety medication, and they had to put me in feet first so I could look behind me and see the ceiling (it was for my low back and hips). If I had been strapped down I would probably have chewed my limbs off to get out.

    5. Djs*

      This- also, TMS is not a super common procedure, so the OP may not have the option of just going to another practice. It’s either TMS at this location, or no treatment at all.

    6. LW#1*

      No straps for me, thank goodness, but as you noted, I still couldn’t move without messing up the treatment. Yes to “situational pressure.” I hope TMS was helpful for you! It was for me, despite the preaching.

  6. hut on the rock*

    I used to teach medical assisting/patient care tech for years before moving into administration and curriculum development for the same field. LW 1, this person is shitting all over the very basic tenets of working in healthcare. We are talking literal Day 1 lessons that are constantly reiterated.

    This person is either breathtakingly clueless or purposefully using their position to preach, and both instances are unacceptable in a med tech. TELL THE PRACTICE.

    1. Mel*

      Nurse here. Completely agree. There might be a practice/office manager you can speak to if you don’t want to bring it up with the doctor.

      1. Cool shades*

        Co-signing. It’s either deliberately breaking a fundamental principle of healthcare, or (less likely) not even knowing a fundamental principle of healthcare, and both scenarios are BAD.

        A cousin was hospitalized with cancer and their nurse told the family members (several with a history of eating disorders, just to make it worse!) that we should pray to Jesus and fast for 3 days in order to cure the cancer. My cousin didn’t want us to say anything since this nurse administered pain and nausea relief and they were afraid of the nurse retaliating. I’m still enraged a decade later.

        1. Kyrielle*

          I was hospitalized recovering from a heart attack (after a clot from a surgery site got loose) and had the woman cleaning my hospital room tell me Jesus was looking out for me. THAT was enough for me to report her to the doctor, because I have friends who would be sent into a panic attack by that due to prior healthcare encounters (different from, but as bad as, yours). I am Christian and I made it clear to my doctor that **I** was not harmed in this case but that I felt I needed to tell them before it was said to someone it did harm.

          LW1, that is how seriously I took this. I would advise you to take your scenario as seriously.

  7. Martin Blackwood*

    Sometimes when reading about “nice people” i reframe behaviors into statements about What Nice People Do, like I’m telling someone how to be nice.

    Only nice people show their coworkers porn at work, jerks never do that!

    Nice people only make racist comments to fellow white people. Jerks make racist comments to non-white people’s faces.

    Nice people steal candy from male and female babies equally.

    1. Cat Coworkers*

      I can’t tell you how helpful this is. I have been struggling with someone in my personal life and this just totally reframed my thinking. <3

  8. ElliottRook*

    LW2, this is what Ryan is willing to do publicly, without fear. I shudder to think what he’s like in private. There is no way he’s actually nice. He might be A Nice Guy, but that’s not a good thing.

  9. Corporate Goon*

    LW #1: While it doesn’t fix the core issue of proselytising in the first place (which is beyond unacceptable, but especially in this circumstance!!), I’ve previously found success in wiggling out of faith-based conversations in my admittedly quite atheist country by using the following script: “I have an existing relationship with [God/The Lord/whatever name they’ve used], thank you.” Then, if they persist: “My faith is very personal/intimate; I don’t discuss it with others and hope you understand.”

    Of course, the proselytiser simply don’t have to know what your relationship with faith might be (i.e. non-existent, only seeing God at funerals where you pretend not to know each other, etc…) :-)

    1. LizardOfOz*

      “only seeing God at funerals where you pretend not to know each other” is freaking gold and I love it, got a giggle out of it in a week where things aren’t going great, so thanks for that.

    2. Antilles*

      I seriously doubt that would work here, given that the tech wasn’t in any way thrown by OP refusing to engage during the first few sessions.
      If anything, the fact you were willing to share you had a relationship with God would be seen as a full-on green light for the tech to be even more active in talking about their own faith since you’re clearly at least open to religion.

      1. metadata minion*

        Yeah, that’s a good option for someone who’s genuinely just trying to be friendly, like in areas where “what church do you go to”/”do you have a church” is considered normal small talk. Then “oh, I’m happy where I am” or similar can be a good polite brushoff. But if someone is dead-set on proselytizing, they’re not going to stop.

    3. Resume Please*

      Yes, twll the doctor, LW!

      In situations similar to this (it’s never been this egregious,) I have always stayed silent with a bored but otherwise neutral blank stare. I really lean into the awkwardness. I never respond to statements that aren’t literal questions (“I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on (whatever)…” isn’t an actual question.)

      I’ve also never had anyone outright ask, “What religion/faith are you?” or a any direct question about belief systems. It’s always a flowery, less blunt “Is there anything about your faith that you would like to share?” or “”Does what I’m saying ring true to you?” I lean into that vagueness as well. I say “I’m good, thanks” in a perfectly confident and pleasant tone, and either blank stare ensuing non-questions or repeat “I’m good, thanks” to more questioning.

      I suppose if it came to a “I’m just trying to share my beliefs” or “I’m just trying to have a conversation” you could say “And I’m here for a medical treatment. I’m good, THANKS”

      1. DJ Abbott*

        That would not be enough to stop the fundamentalists I grew up with. They will keep trying to coerce people until they are forcibly stopped.
        Even threatening to call the police or to stop them physically didn’t stop them. The only thing that worked for me was avoiding them.

    4. LW#1*

      Your phrase “only seeing God at funerals where you pretend not to know each other” made my day, thank you!

  10. Capybara*

    #2: If someone falls out of her chair thanks to Ryan’s pranks and is injured, that’s workman’s comp and the employer may be on the hook for medical expenses as well. This asshole can get the company in trouble.

  11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #2 “Ryan is fundamentally a nice person”
    No, racists are not nice people; they are scum.

    I’d first try HR and the union. He and his boss would be disciplined hard everywhere I’ve worked since the 1980s.

    If that doesn’t work, I’d prioritise tackling the racism every time and ignore the rest:
    “That’s a very offensive remark / are you stupid or just a nasty person?”

    Exception, if he tried lowering my chair: “Stop, you fool. That’s dangerous!”

    1. CityMouse*

      Yes, LW, the fact that you call Ryan a “fundamentally nice person” when he says racist stuff at work suggests this place is already getting to you and breaking your sense of normal. A guy who says racist stuff is not “fundamentally a nice person”. Those statements are incompatible and that is a hill I 100% will die on.

    2. Ana Gram*

      Right. Ryan isn’t a nice guy who says racist stuff. Ryan is a racist. I’m guessing Ryan and the OP are the same race so his racism isn’t directed toward them so they’re separating his “niceness” from his racism but racism is part of his personality. Because he is a racist.

      1. Jackalope*

        Yeah, this is different from, say, someone wrestling with the internalized racism that infects the atmosphere we all live in, and occasionally messes it up and then tries to fix it. This is a man who is actively and openly making racist comments on the regular (as well as the sexual harassment, since that’s a related type of issue) at work. That’s not being a nice guy with some issues. He’s a jerk who can perhaps sometimes follow social niceties when it suits him.

    3. Labbie*

      I agree. I think OP means that he is not overtly malicious in their experience. Which is not at all the same as being nice.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Racist remarks certainly feel “overtly malicious” to those of us who are not white.

  12. WS*

    LW1: This is absolutely unacceptable behaviour from the tech. The fact that you are not personally hurt, just annoyed, means that you are an ideal person to mention this to the psychiatrist before someone with serious religious trauma is in the same position. For the sake of other patients, please report her.

    1. battlemage*

      This is the point I wanted to come here to make. I had a horrible childhood and was often physically abused in the name of religion by my mentally ill mother who believed that normal childhood emotions are willful disobedience and caused by the devil and that she had to keep hitting me harder to get the demons out of me.

      I recently finally found the courage to start therapy for all the emotional baggage and trauma I’ve been carrying around all these years and almost all the mental health providers covered by my insurance are religious based. (Why?) I immediately screened all of them out because I seriously doubt that any of them would be able to help me process any of that with objectivity, and any provider telling me I need to turn to religion to fix my problems when religion is the reason I’m there would open up a lot of wounds that I’m trying to heal. Thankfully I was able to find a provider who is awesome so far and has been great.

      1. Jackalope*

        Adding to this for others who are also dealing with this sort of trauma but haven’t found a good provider – I recommend looking for providers that specifically mention that they cover religious trauma if you can. I was fortunate enough never to have someone who was actively pushing religion on me, but I did have experiences with providers who didn’t understand the ways in which religion could affect all of you or how it could be harmful (or harmful and helpful both at the same time), and they weren’t able to help me with that part of my trauma. Finding someone with experience in that area was so helpful.

        (This isn’t directed at you specifically since it sounds like you’ve found someone who can help and that is awesome. But I remember when I was looking for someone and didn’t know that this was something I could look for.)

      2. Frieda*

        I’m religious and have in the past specifically sought out mental health care providers who were either clearly from another religious tradition, or whose “about me” information strongly suggested to me that they were not religious. There’s a category of Christian-based counselor that I am 100% confident would not be a good fit for me.

        I’m really sorry that your mom was so horrible. Nobody deserves that and I’m glad you’re getting care as you heal.

      3. Observer*

        I immediately screened all of them out because I seriously doubt that any of them would be able to help me process any of that with objectivity,

        I cannot speak for all religious practitioners, obviously, but my experience with religious mental health practitioners has really not borne that out. I’ve seen it play out in two ways. One of which is to say “I’m familiar with the religious context and your abuse was counter to the religion your mother claimed to be espousing.” The other is “Religion is not part of my remit. You were abused and punished for being a normal child and that’s left you with wounds and scars that you need help with. Let’s work on that.”

        Now, obviously since you have a therapist for whom this is a non-issue and who is working out for you, this is not really relevant. But it’s worth it for anyone else reading this to know that it is possible to have a religious therapist who won’t let their religious orientation get in the way of effective treatment. Although, yes, caution is warranted.

        any provider telling me I need to turn to religion to fix my problems when religion is the reason I’m there would open up a lot of wounds that I’m trying to heal

        That would be absolutely *horrifying*. And also definitely malpractice.

    2. Unauthorized Plants*

      Also, it is extremely likely you aren’t the only one experiencing this, which extends WS’s point in and of itself, but also, if you are one of several patients getting proselytized to each week, the tech will have a harder time identifying which of you reported it.

      1. Observer*

        Also, it is extremely likely you aren’t the only one experiencing this, which extends WS’s point in and of itself

        Yes, it does. But also makes it more horrifying.

        if you are one of several patients getting proselytized to each week, the tech will have a harder time identifying which of you reported it.

        True. It’s both sad and a silver lining.

    3. LW#1*

      This is a helpful perspective, thank you. I thought about how actively harmful the behavior could be to someone more vulnerable/less confident in their beliefs than I, but I hadn’t considered how especially damaging it could be to someone with religious trauma. This perspective makes me all the more eager to speak up about my experience.

      1. Polly Hedron*

        And it makes us all the more eager to hear how that conversation goes, when you update us next week!

      2. EducationMic*

        I had a friend living down south finally seek therapy after being suicidal who was told by a doctor she needed to accept Jesus. She is an agnostic cultural Jew. Her take away was there would be no help for her unless she first managed to uproot her life and move to a new state. Want to guess whether that helped her impulse to give up on being alive?

        She doesn’t have religious trauma, she didn’t lack confidence in her beliefs, she wasn’t vulnerable in the sense of being low income or undocumented or a minority or anything like that, but it was still deeply harmful. Regardless of audience, the message is essentially “you are incurable” because either you already believe in G-d, and that hasn’t fixed you, or you’re not likely to start just because you were told to by an aggressive rando.

        In addition to harming other patients, she is undermining her employers ability to provider care, which is something most doctors would want to and have a right to know. She’s also essentially standing in a teapot store telling people the best way to make tea is with a bag and a mug, so there’s that.

        To be clear, this isn’t your job to solve. But since you asked in terms of the harm you might do to this tech: your have 0 obligation to protect this tech, and way more obligation to others in your community who need treatment, and to any providers who have done their best to use their training to help you.

  13. Irish Teacher.*

    Honestly, as well as being offensive religiously, the medical tech in the first letter is also giving unscientific medical information. Believing in God does not cure depression and I know a number of deeply religious people who have suffered from depression and find the idea that that should have cured them to be very offensive.

    1. Nebula*

      My gran (Catholic) was once told by a handyman (some form of Evangelical Protestant) that if she just prayed then God would provide and cure her problems with her hip, and everything can be solved by prayer. Gran’s response: “I read in the paper about a little boy who was killed by a lightning strike while playing football. Was that his fault for not praying enough?” The guy shut up after that.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Your gran sounds awesome.

        But yeah, it strikes me as particularly dangerous for a medical professional to tell somebody undergoing treatment that prayer would cure them. It’s practically saying, “this treatment is unnecessary. You could get the same or better benefits just by praying.”

        And well, I tend towards de Valera’s comment that “I do not believe we have any right to expect the Almighty to work miracles on our behalf. If they come by the way and help us, we can be grateful for them, but it is presumption on our part if we put reason aside and rely on them.” OK, my logic is more “we don’t even know if a god or gods exist or if they do, whether they intervene on human behalf, so while I may believe in God, it would be pretty silly to rely only on something we cannot prove when the benefits of medical treatment can be proven.”

        But either way, I consider it both concerning that a medical professional would be implying miracles work as well as or better than medical treatment and I also find it…well, not great religion.

        1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

          Yeah, my take/response is similar–“I believe God gave us brains and wants us to use them, which includes using science and medicine to heal, not just prayer. Besides, how do you know someone else’s prayer isn’t why we HAVE the medicine/treatment/science available?”

          1. Magnolia Cordelia*

            “Besides, how do you know someone else’s prayer isn’t why we HAVE the medicine/treatment/science available?””

          2. Observer*

            “I believe God gave us brains and wants us to use them, which includes using science and medicine to heal, not just prayer.

            Absolutely! And that’s the mainstream view of Judaism. Doctors are there to heal.

            Besides, how do you know someone else’s prayer isn’t why we HAVE the medicine/treatment/science available?”

            I’d go further and say that prayers are probably at least part of the reason we have these treatments. From where I sit these treatments are a gift from G-d presented to us through the work of man. And as humans we should *use* those gifts, not despise them.

            Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with me or see it the same way. But fundamentally, it’s just not the case that “the” religious view of treatment is that it’s in opposition to prayer and other religious works.

            1. Bryce*

              The old joke about a guy caught in a flood who refuses increasingly dramatic levels of help because “God will save me.”

              Dies, asks God why he didn’t help, and the reply is “dude, I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter!”

              1. Kiriana*

                One of my absolute favourite jokes. I’d typically describe myself as an atheist but I feel like if there is some kind of spiritual higher power it lives inside people who cultivate it by caring, so whoever was driving the car, boat, and helicopter in the middle of a natural disaster *were*, essentially, God.

          3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            Totally get that point of view. The only downside of saying that kind of thing to the tech is that it implies that the LW wants to continue the conversation or debate theology, rather than shutting it the heck down. One thing I’ve had to learn is that much as I might want to bring someone over to accepting my point of view (e.g., medical staff proselytizing is inappropriate and unacceptable) and have the Crappy Behaviour stop, the important thing is the behaviour stopping. I don’t need to convince anyone that I’m right and they should see things my way. It’s enough if they stop doing the harmful thing. And if they have feelings about that, it’s not my problem as long as those feelings stay internal.

        2. I Have RBF*

          This.

          My take is “[gG]od/s is/are running an entire universe. It is serious hubris for me to expect them to drop everything to come and cure me, when we have medicine to do that.”

      2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        The handyman is lucky that doesn’t work. Otherwise, people could just pray for their repairs to be done and he’d be out of a job.

    2. Jane Anonsten*

      Yeah, I’m a Christian and my faith is deeply important to me — this tech would have been reported before I left the clinic that day. It’s incredibly offensive!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yep. Faith is a belief in things (not just a deity) that one cannot see. You trust that God is there doing whatever God does — you don’t need him to stick his face in yours and loudly announce, “I AM DOING THE THING.” The understanding of how that manifests varies between denominations, between religions, and even between different people.

        A proven medical treatment is a thing that IS seen — that is, there is empirical evidence of it, and therefore. it is not a matter of faith. But even if a patient went to the exact same church as the tech, that still doesn’t make it appropriate for them to do this at work!

    3. AJB*

      Agreed. My husband and I are deeply religious and he has faced a number of crippling mental health concerns. The tech’s line of thinking is not only just wrong but dangerous because that attitude keeps so many people from pursuing the help they need because they’re ashamed.

      1. What's that in the road - a head?*

        When I was a child, our pastor was fond of holding his bible up in the air and proclaiming things like, “If you’re feeling blue, you don’t need a head shrinker. Everything you need is in this book.” A lot of people really do believe that their faith and the words in that book are everything they need, and nothing else.

        Scary.

      2. Jasmine*

        I am a Bible teacher. If I meet someone in my ministry who seems to have depression I recommend they get a complete physical check up …Then after that see a mental health specialist. I still teach them the Bible but I am NOT a doctor.

        1. ReallyBadPerson*

          Exactly! My church maintains lists of qualified mental health service providers that they give to people seeking counseling for non-religious matters.

    4. EducationMic*

      The fact that clinics like that exist and make money in deeply religious areas where you can get away with this nonsense would be proof enough for most people.

      Also, belief in G-d might be something you can influence to a degree if you try, but it’s not really a choice. I’d love to believe in fairies, because how whimsical and fun! But I don’t. And even if someone promised me $10,000,000 if I could just bring myself to believe in fairies, it would not change the fact that I don’t believe in them. “Believe in this thing that cannot be seen or proven” is not really helpful advice even if it works.

  14. Sara*

    #2. OP said that Ryan is a nice person, so I am going to trust that for the purposes of argument. Let’s say that he is indeed a nice person, who adopts disabled cats and volunteers at soup kitchens, but is immature and can’t tell the difference between a workplace and a fraternity. After all, he is encouraged by his boss so he might not realize his behavior is inappropriate.

    In this case, you should be able to pull Ryan aside, and tell him, in words he can understand, why you would like him to stop the unpleasant behaviors. I think the sex jokes are the easiest to address, if you explain that they make you uncomfortable. The immigrant one is tricky (because it’s just such an emotive topic right now), but maybe you can also explain that you really want to avoid politics at work.
    The chair one and explicit images are hard to address if they were targeting somebody else who doesn’t mind. I’d also leave the fart jokes alone for now, and focus on the most important issues.

    If Ryan is nice and just immature, he should understand that what’s funny to him can make others uncomfortable, and tone it down. If he does not, he is NOT a nice person, and gives you stronger grounds to go to HR.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      It’s been two years, OP has addressed the issues, he’s not learning or maturing. He’s not a nice guy.

  15. Dogmomma*

    #1. yes report to the office manager & the doc. this is inappropriate in a medical setting. you told her no thanks and she continued to push. I’m a nurse & a Christian. Our church isn’t
    ” aggressive” & neither is anyone else I know & I live in the Bible Belt. I would never do this to a patient.

    1. metadata minion*

      I absolutely believe this about you, but I would gently suggest that if you are yourself Christian, you don’t actually know how everyone around you acts when they have a captive audience of someone who isn’t Christian.

  16. MPerera*

    When my mother was getting chemo in a hospital in the Middle East, one of the doctors refused to give her pain medication because he told her that if she suffered on earth, she would be rewarded in heaven.

    I’m sure that in his mind, that doctor meant well too. But as one of my friends said when she heard about this, “The guy has got to choose, doctor or imam. He can’t be both.”

        1. patient care*

          In my corner of Earth, the patients/families that feel the most strongly about not using pain relief wherever possible are Catholic.

            1. mpe1*

              Some time after I gave birth mumblemumble years ago, the actual person in charge of midwives in the UK took it upon himself (!) to announce that it was good for mothers to suffer in childbirth as that helped them bond with their babies. (I wrote to the government minister responsible for overseeing this mess. She (!) didn’t bother to reply.)

              1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

                The things I want to say about this and MPerera’s comments would get me put on some kind of watchlist.

          2. Kiriana*

            Yes, Mother Teresa shared this belief. At least for other people; my understanding is that she did seek proper treatment including pain management for herself at the end of her life.

    2. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

      That principle has some incredibly dark implications. I’m sorry your mother suffered because of this idiot.

  17. Quilt Girl*

    While Ryan is fundamentally a nice person, he…
    * Constant crude humor (fart jokes throughout the day)
    * Physical pranks (lowering colleagues’ chairs while they’re working)
    * Graphic discussions of his sex life
    * Showing explicit images to female colleagues
    * Making racist and anti-immigrant comments

    Screaming voice: Ryan is NOT a fundamentally nice person!!! We have GOT to stop glossing over this type of behavior!

    1. Liane*

      I wonder who told OP Ryan was “nice”?
      Was it the boss? Those other coworkers who are cozying up to Ryan? I am an older woman and frankly, both OP’s boss & coworkers come off to me like they are trying to prove they’ve still Got It by getting attention from Ryan the Cool Younger Guy.
      Was it Ryan saying he was nice? Commenters above have mentioned the creepy, incel types whining/ranting, “I’m a Nice Guy–whyyyy don’t I get dates?”

    2. honeygrim*

      Usually I translate “nice” in these kinds of letters as “generally pleasant and not abjectly awful to be around.” But none of Ryan’s actions even rise to this definition of “nice” so I wonder if the LW is falling into the pattern so many of us have of starting from the assumption that everyone is generally good and deserves the benefit of the doubt when they behave badly. And, you can start from that assumption, sure, but Ryan has already demonstrated he doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt, here. He IS in fact abjectly awful to be around.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        My guess is that he has done some helpful or kind things, like buying lunch for the department, bringing in treats, helping somebody with a horrible project and…it kind of feels mean to write all this negative stuff about somebody who did you a favour. But people aren’t all one thing or the other. Even horrible racists presumably occasionally do nice things.

  18. Jay (no, the other one)*

    Yes, please please please tell the psychiatrist. I ran a medical practice and I would absolutely have wanted to know that.

  19. I just like doing things like that*

    A little confused on #3 – I guess it depends on Elizabeth’s role, but if she’s interviewing Phillip or checking his references I’m sure she knows she might be speaking with OP. I don’t see how it reflects poorly on Philip when they all know each other already anyway

    I think it’s ok to talk to Philip and maybe there’s someone else he can use, but if Elizabeth is involved in this process presumably she knows and likes Phillip already. I wouldn’t think the prospect of speaking with OP would sour Liz on Phil

    1. linger*

      Yes, the one thing that is clear is that OP3 should lay it out for Philip that “You know I fired the person who’s checking the references, so we don’t have a great history, and it might be a problem if I’m the one presenting your reference to her. Should we go ahead, or is there someone else you could ask instead?”
      There is much that is less clear.
      The exact circumstances and mechanism of OP3 firing Elizabeth (essentially just for personality fit? vs. actionable feedback about named workplace behaviours, with PIP or similar due process followed?) may determine whether or not a professional conversation between them is possible 2 years later. That OP3 glosses over all details, and believes such a conversation would be awkward at best and even hurt Philip’s chances, does not bode well for how that went down.
      Best case scenario: proper process was followed, and maybe Elizabeth took the feedback to heart, and got her current (presumably higher-status, if she’s the hiring manager) job as a result. If so, maybe OP3 is worrying too much.
      Also, when hiring Elizabeth, did her new company do any reference check with (former manager) OP3? If OP3 gave Elizabeth a positive reference then, that’s important extra context for the current situation. But if there was no reference check then, firstly, that would mean Elizabeth might not have had to learn any lesson there was to learn from being fired, and secondly, I’d start to wonder what changed that it is now happening for Philip.

      1. Kiriana*

        I would assume that Elizabeth did not use the manager who fired her as a reference and instead provided details of other people who would have more positive things to say about her.

  20. Smug*

    I wonder if that medical tech is hoping that people are more suggestible than normal when they’re getting TMS…

  21. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

    I think LW1 and LW2 have basically the same situation: these people are way out of line and anybody permitting it is way out of line too.

  22. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    #4, how solid was the materialization of the counter offer? In writing with a clear, short timeline? (OP shall be lead pastry analyst as of March 1st, new salary $120K.) Or is it more aspirational, next quarter if the CEO is willing and the creeks don’t flood?

    In the aggregate, I’d say the evidence is that the other department is willing to promote you, and the one you are in is not.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Agree.

      I sometimes think of departments as mini-companies. Dept. A can be extremely well-run, innovative, and employee-centric. Dept. B plods along, doing the same thing for 20 years and not lifting a finger to promote or train staff. Dept. C is the dumpster fire that has staff turnover rivaling a fast food restaurant.

      Evaluate each department with the same rigor as you would an outside org.

    2. Technically Australien*

      When someone has been led by promises the question IMO is: Is the new position a step up from where you are right now?

      Not “have new promises been made”, because it’s well established that the current role has lots of promises. New ones aren’t news. A written contract would be news (unless the current role has a history of written promises that evaporate, per the other recent letter here).

      1. LW 4*

        Let’s say current dept is Pastry Analysis, and I’m currently the Lead Taster. The role that’s been talked about with me for over a year is Pastry Designer. I am not new to pastry design, but I am less experienced with the piping tubes (aka tools used in the role).

        The awful pastry designer left, and the position was posted over the summer. I was on medical leave at the time, and had discussed me interviewing for the role with the hiring manager as recently as 5 weeks prior, but “the business needs changed.” They hired someone who knew how to use the piping tubes and told me there was for sure headcount for one more designer in January.

        Because I am so good at pastry design, I’ve been working as a pastry designer for the past 5-6 months while my boss covers critical parts of my taster job. I’ve proven my skill with the piping tubes, but I’ve not gotten an actual job change or the higher pay that the designers get. Come early January, all of a sudden the headcount wasn’t dedicated to designer role anymore. It could be, but it could also not be.

        TBH my hope is that the other job, outside of pastries altogether, comes through with an offer before any role materializes. I want out for the reasons you all and Alison bring up. If this was a relationship with a person, friend or romantic, I’d have dropped them like a hot potato months ago.

  23. Morning person*

    I don’t understand LW#3. Doesn’t Elizabeth already know Phillip? Didn’t she work with him? And they got along ok? I think just being professional is going to be fine- she obviously knows she will be talking to you and probably just has some basic questions she didn’t know the answer to as his co-worker and needs you to fill in as his boss.

  24. HonorBox*

    OP2 – I could chalk up fart jokes and pranks to Ryan being immature and not fully grasping the inappropriateness of them. Taking the specific “prank” out of the equation, I can say as someone who was once his age, it takes a while to get past the teenage boy thought process of what is funny.

    That said, your list of concerns escalates mighty quickly. While a fart joke or a different prank might land as a 4/10 on the scale of problematic, everything else is a 10/10. A fart joke, while off-putting, isn’t illegal. Showing explicit photos to coworkers may be. Racist statements and detailed talk of one’s sex life are not things that someone who is just a little immature do. And ignorance doesn’t make it OK. It would be one thing if Ryan did this stuff, was talked to and told to stop, and then changed behavior. Maybe then you could chalk it up to him not fully understanding, then not doing it again.

    If you don’t have HR, it might be time to look elsewhere. Because your boss clearly is enabling the behavior, which makes this situation even worse. Someone at some point (and maybe this is you) is going to take this further and both Ryan and the boss are going to be responsible for the harm that is being caused by the sexual harassment and hate speech.

  25. FluffskyMom*

    Therapist here. For poster #1: Unless this is SPECIFICALLY a religious counseling organization and you consented to religion as part of treatment, your experience is a direct violation of the ethical codes that govern psychiatric and therapeutic care. This is a huge violation, and is reportable to the various state boards that can absolutely result in a loss of licensure should the behaviors continue. The psychiatric practitioner absolutely needs to be told, because this is extremely harmful behavior for the tech to be exhibiting, and ultimately the psychiatric practitioner is responsible for the behaviors of the technicians and other providers that they supervise.

  26. Yallidarity*

    I live in the South, and am not religious and am a bleeding heart liberal and all that but I also respect that other people are religious, and I am always really respectful of that. But I got sober 9 years ago, and went through some pretty serious struggles with my drinking before I was able to stop, and ended up in the hospital twice and experienced proselytizing both times.

    I had on urgent care doctor give me pamphlets about god, and hold my hands and pray with my that god relieves me from this. I had another nurse, who was supposed to come monitor my vitals at around 2 am, shake me awake and (gently, at least) ask me why I did this then proceeded to also hold my hands and pray and tell me about how it doesn’t have to be this way. That’s not to mention the treatment from other nurses and practitioners who acted like I was an idiot and a criminal. I was just a 24 year old scared woman who was going through the worst thing I’ve ever experienced.

    In the end, serious mental health intervention and community helped me, but thanks for the thoughts and prayers y’all.

    1. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Oh, this infuriates me. I am so sorry you experienced that.

      I work in hospice. Our team includes a spiritual counselor many of whom are ordained clergy. Not a single one of them would ever – EVER – offer a prayer unless it was the direct request of the patient. If they did and we heard about it, they would be, um, counseled. If they attempted to proselytize, they would be fired.

      In fact, we have a rule in the network that we are not allowed to display anything with religious significance in public spaces. I found out recently that it goes beyond that – nothing showing any kind of affiliation including sports teams. Then they realized we’re the official medical provider for one of the local teams so they had to write in an exemption.

    2. mreasy*

      The only doctor who ever proselytized to me also SAed me later on in the appt. He clearly knew he could get away with violating the law and medical policies in multiple ways.

    3. LW#1*

      I am very sorry you had to deal with this. It sounds like we live in similar areas and have had similar experiences. It makes it all the more impressive that you have been sober for 9 years! That takes serious strength!

  27. DramaQ*

    LW #1 please mention it. that was HIGHLY inappropriate the medical tech should not be bringing in her personal religious feelings at work and preaching to patients. It could make people uncomfortable enough to not continue to seek treatment.

    I reported a couple’s therapist for something similar. We sought her out because we had gone through a lot of major life changes in a short amount of time and needed help figuring out how to move forward from there.

    She kept talking about God. I made some murmurs but then she asked me what my beliefs were and I said I am an atheist. She latched onto this like a dog with a bone and it suddenly became that our marriage was rough because I didn’t believe in God. My husband told her that he has absolutely no issue with that and leans the same way.

    Nope. The final straw was I was in crisis over my mom’s death and DH wanted to know how ot help. She started pressuring me about not praying and not believing and demanding to know why I questioned faith. I shut down which if it had been in person I might have hit a medical professional. DH quickly ended the session because he knew if I went quiet like that it meant I was really angry.

    I went onto our log in page and clicked the I want another therapist button. When prompted I wrote down everything about how she was bringing her own biases and religion into the sessions and not listening to us as the couple about what we needed and how incredibly uncomfortable I was to be grilled like that.

    When I started individual therapy the first thing I told her was that I am an atheist and I won’t tolerate being questioned about my religion and if that was going to be her goal I’d end the session right now. She was horrified and told me if I hadn’t reported it I needed to because that was a serious breach of ethics on the part of the couple’s therapist.

    People have a right to their religion. They DO NOT have the right to force it onto others.

    Tolerance of religion does not mean you have to be uncomfortable when seeking medical help because they can’t separate the two. You have every right to report it.

  28. No Longer a Bookkeeper*

    #1: As someone who has religious trauma, I’m sorry that happened to you, LW, and I hope the psychiatrist takes it seriously! That behavior is abhorrent. I’ve never gotten this in a medical setting, but I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of telling proselytizers “Been there, done that, got the free t-shirt.” They do NOT like it, but it makes me laugh and they can’t argue with me about needing to let Jesus in my heart because I’ve heard it ALL since I was preverbal. Sorry I’m not helping you hit your conversion quota, Janice.

    #2: As other commenters have said, Ryan is not a “nice guy” – but I understand what the LW means, because I had a similar situation where a coworker I got along with suddenly started saying racist things to me, expecting me to agree. (I told him I did NOT agree and pulled way back from the relationship.) It can be jarring to realize that someone is only “nice” to you because your skin color happens to match theirs. But the sexual harassment and dangerous pranks on top of the racism makes me think that Ryan’s behavior is going to escalate because no one is stopping him, which is a recipe for disaster. I would get out ASAP if I were you, LW.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, being nice to white people does not make him a “nice guy”.
      The OP is presumably white,

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I completely agree and I think lots of people are confusing the word nice with the word kind. It’s entirely possible to act nice without actually being kind or genuine.

  29. Sarahahaha*

    LW#1: I really feel for you! I hope you do talk to your doctor. When I was in the process of trying to get a shoulder MRI done. I had a lot of anxiety with traditional MRI’s and claustrophobia. The nurse at the orthopedic surgeon’s office called to schedule an appointment with their open MRI machine. She had read the notes about the trouble I had getting the traditional MRI done. She started talking to me about leaning into God and praying during the MRI. Then she started praying. I got off the phone as fast as I could. I had an appointment the following week with my orthopedic surgeon. She was furious. She said she’d talk to her about that. Also, she made sure it was notated that she didn’t handle any of my care at all going forward. (P.S. I am also the LW from a few years back where my colleague cornered me and prayed for me to come back to Jesus. It’s hard living in the deep south as a non-Christian or non-religious person!)

    LW#2: Ryan is not a nice person. Nice people don’t act like that.

    1. Ally McBeal*

      Living in the deep south as a non-Christian is indeed awful. It’s one of the reasons I left, and I was a Christian when I left (well, a Catholic, which is as bad as a Satan worshipper to many in the deep south)!

      1. Phony Genius*

        I know a Jewish person who lived in a religious part of Louisiana. He said that everybody went to church on Sunday and if you didn’t everybody would want to know why. If you were Jewish, that was OK by them as long as you went to synagogue every Saturday.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Oh yeah, the idol worshipping (“Y’all pray to statues instead of Jesus!”) I grew up Catholic in a rural town full of Southern Baptists and it was . . . something.

        Also, it was my fault we had fish in the school cafeteria on Fridays. “Pizza should be on Fridays!!!!” My dude, we just had pizza on Wednesday; calm tf down.

    2. LW#1*

      Even though I’ve spent more of my life in the deeps outh than not, I’m surprised by how many commenters have had similar experiences with medical providers here. It’s a unique culture for sure.

    3. DJ*

      I had former work colleagues put the religious word on me towards the end of a catch up lunch. I don’t see them very often but this was the last time!

  30. Our Lady of Tralfamadore*

    LW1: I have reported someone to their practice for having a binder open intentionally facing patients with a large font message about how to accept The Lord and they never said a word to me or disrupted our interaction otherwise. Ma’am, please – I am not here for religious guidance, I am here for a damn mammogram

    That person still has their job but I have never seen the binder again, which is frankly all I care about

    “Our patients are NOT your missionary field” needs to be the minimum standard

  31. Observer*

    #1- being proselytized to.

    Two thoughts.

    Do not get into your religious beliefs. It’s not relevant. You could even have been of the same faith tradition as her – not just a Christian, but belonging to her denomination, and it would still have been inappropriate. She should never have started, and once you pushed back she left the line sooo far behind you would need a spyglass to see it.

    Secondly, if she did this instead of, or during the time of, the treatment you were supposed to be getting you need to make that very clear to the doctor. Because that takes it from wildly inappropriate to malpractice.

    Please don’t worry about getting her in trouble. It’s not you but her behavior. And also, the potential for real harm to others is significant. If she *truly* does mean well, then having her boss make it clear that what she is doing is a problem and also harmful should get her to stop without resentment.

  32. stifled creativity*

    #1–I’m a TMS tech, and please, please say something if you feel comfortable doing so. This is horrifying. You hit the nail on the head–you truly were a captive audience, and TMS treatments should always and absolutely be completely focused on the patient’s comfort and recovery. What you described is a huge breach of professional norms and completely unacceptable. I am super angry on your behalf. In our clinic the doctors have the techs talk to patients about research-backed suggestions to help with depression (stuff like get enough sleep! Exercise! Go to talk therapy! Be compliant with medication regimens!) because we’re focused on the patient and their recovery. I’m so sorry this happened to you. I hope TMS was effective for you and wishing you all the best.

    1. LW#1*

      Thank you so much for this! I found TMS to be tremendously helpful and highly recommend it to anyone suffering from chronic/major depression. It worked better for me than any prior treatments, and I have been dealing with depression for about 4 decades now. Your patients are lucky to have you!

      1. It's Fine*

        Same hat! It’s bananas that we figured out how to do this with magnets, huh? I still can’t believe sometimes how much and how quickly I improved.

  35. LW#1*

    LW#1 here. I really appreciate Alison’s answer and all of the feedback from the commentary. I think because overt Christianity is so pervasive here, and because I so often fall outside of the “standard” religious and political beliefs that surround me, that I was feeling like my negative reaction was excessive/unwarranted. I am grateful for the validation that it was not. As some commentators have surmised, the message was very directly “If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you won’t be depressed.” As it happens, I have an appointment with my doctor next week, and I will raise this issue with him. I’ll send an update re: how it goes. Thanks for the support!

    1. Magnolia Cordelia*

      “If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you won’t be depressed.”

      I wish that were the case!

    3. Mrs. Pommeroy*

      Also wishing you good luck with the conversation, LW!
      And would definitely appreciate an update from you afterwards!

    4. I Have RBF*

      … the message was very directly “If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you won’t be depressed.”

      Yeah, that’s sheer BS. Trying to be a Christian made me more depressed as a teen. Rejecting that actually helped me.

    5. iglwif*

      I’m glad you’re feeling validated, and I hope the conversation goes well!

      As a person who has trouble articulating out loud when I feel strongly about something, may I suggest also bringing with you / emailing afterwards a written description of what happened?

    6. EducationMic*

      Let’s set aside the absolutely huge number of people that, publicly or privately, don’t believe, but who also deserve medical treatment, even if they’re the minority.

      What if the person is a Christian? “The one true fix for this that will help anyone with a soul did not fix you” is tooootally going to be soothing and not make you feel completely broken inside and beyond help, I’m sure!

    7. Striped Badger*

      I was feeling like my negative reaction was excessive/unwarranted

      It is often easier to be brave for others than ourselves. That is not a failing; it is a sign that you are a kind and empathetic person.

      So instead I’ll say this: even if your reaction WAS excessive – and it’s not – then why would that even matter? Accepting your boundary to NOT talk requires so little effort on the Tech’s part, that refusal to do so is both disrespectful to you and unchristianly of her.
      That would still be a reason to complain. If your ‘no’ is not being respected as part of medical treatment, then how can any of the treatment be expected to work?

  36. Ryan isn't the problem*

    When you open with “[o]ur manager is a bully who operates by singling out team members while cultivating favorites and gossiping about colleagues”, it doesn’t really matter what nonsense Ryan gets up to. Going to HR over this won’t make the boss a better person. Just leave.

  37. Magnolia Cordelia*

    #1 “This is most definitely not a religiously-affiliated practice.”
    Even if it were, it still wouldn’t be appropriate. In my experience, religiously affiliated hospitals usually mean that some of the nurses are nuns of a specific order who are trained as nurses, or that they pray together every day, or that there is a cross on the wall; not that the medical staff preaches to you.

    Just like your priest, minister, rabbi, or other spiritual leader should not be giving medical advice at religious services, your medical staff should not be giving you religious advice.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I just want to point out that they might not preach (proselytizing is not inherent to Catholicism), but Catholic hospitals do not perform terminations. The one where I used to live wouldn’t even do a D&C. The secular hospital also wouldn’t do them out of “respect” for the Catholic one (huge eyeroll), and I got this information straight from my friend’s doctor wife who worked in the secular health system.

      So yeah, it does affect treatment, and there isn’t really anything to be done about it currently except go somewhere else. Which many of those patients could not do, because care was three to five hours away.

      1. Magnolia Cordelia*

        Yes, I’m aware of that, and intended to include it but I must have had a brain fart (for lack of a better term) My point still remains: they don’t preach the Gospel to you or tell you that prayer will cure you at a Catholic hospital.

  38. Specialist*

    Regarding the medical tech proselytizing–this is very wrong by current medical standards. If the physician owns their own practice, you can file your complaint with them. If they don’t own the practice you may have to go through the office manager. You should file a complaint. I wouldn’t allow that in my practice and most physicians wouldn’t want it, either.

    Regarding Ryan, the description of a fresh out of school person who may be nice can happen. Instead of telling him not to do something because it is offensive, I would ask him privately and quietly if he sees himself staying in his current entry level position for the rest of his career, followed by asking if the fart jokes would be helpful in career advancement.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I appreciate the elegantness of your response to Ryan. I would absolutely be channeling my best Maggie Smith for that one.

  39. tw1968*

    #1: Among comments I’d like to make to the tech but wouldn’t:
    “So far trying to pray away my condition hasn’t worked, so that’s why I’m hear for treatment”,
    “If you believe this so strongly why are you working at a MEDICAL PRACTICE? You should quit this job and open up a ‘faith healing’ clinic” (this actually solves the problem more permanently if the tech goes through with it)

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      For serious! The choice of profession is surprising at best and a deliberate choice to take advantage of vulnerable people in a lower position of power (since patients have to “play nice” with medical providers) at worst.

  40. Melbatoast*

    LW should definitely make a complaint. What kind of blowback are you suggesting OP could face though? This seems extremely unlikely, if not impossible. At worst, I could see them not taking the complaint seriously enough, if their religious values happen to align with the tech’s, but a medical regulator has no authority to cause blowback on a patient filing a complaint (and I can’t see why they’d want to).

    I would hate for LW to see that comment and hesitate to report for fear of negative consequences..

    1. Andrew*

      Nesting fail, but I saw this, so…

      The LW explicitly said they live in the Deep South. Lot of hardcore Evangelical types down there who take mortal offense to anything they think is insulting or disrespecting their religion. And plenty of them, even if not otherwise sympathetic to the ideals of the Third Reich (sadly, quite a few ARE), would rather associate with Hitler himself than with an atheist.

    2. Andrew*

      Building off of my earlier reply but going in a different direction…

      It sounds like you’re assuming everyone involved will hew closely to professional behavior. Notwithstanding the fact that the tech already failed that (or there would have been no letter), I’m not sure how reasonable that expectation is on a broader scale (especially, as I mentioned, given the current political ascendancy of people with similar views to said tech). Most people find it difficult to remain strictly professional when there most deeply held beliefs and values are being challenged, and I’d argue that that’s not always a bad thing!

      Considering again the setting (the Deep South) here, it’s a fairly reasonable assumption that a regulator’s values will be closer to the “literally Evangelical tech” side (it means “spreading the Word,” FYI) than the “secular LW that doesn’t want to hear it” one. You can probably do the math from there: significant likelihood (far from inevitable, but nowhere near negligible either) of the bureaucrat the LW reports the tech to pulling a Kim Davis and siding with a right-wing interpretation of Christian doctrine over the secular law of the United States.

  42. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    LW2, don’t actually do this, but I would dream about starting to fight fire with fire. Sounds like you’re in an “informal office” (i.e., unprofessional den of nightmares), so there’s nothing stopping you from telling Ryan in detail about any perimenopause symptoms you’re experiencing. Or your elderly relative’s difficulties with their bowels. Or the weird puke your pet / child did last week. Or literally anything about childbirth. He started it. You can finish it.

  43. It's Fine*

    #1, Best of luck with your TMS! I had the same treatment and it saved my life. Amazing piece of technology, I still can’t believe it sometimes.

  44. Phone Voice*

    LW #2 : Your coworkers’ and supervisor’s delight in Ryan’s bigotry and toxicity indicate that he’s exposed a lot of rottenness which goes beyond just his own awfulness. I know it’s far easier to say “get another job” than it is to do, but if your supervisor will protect him and your coworkers adulate him I’m not certain what could render this office any less than generally horrible. All good luck.

  45. learnedthehardway*

    OP#1 – you really need to bring this up with your psychiatrist / psychologist – whoever is providing you medical treatment. Not only is the tech making you uncomfortable and overstepping, but arguably, they are trying to practice medicine without a license. And they certainly should not be using their position within their employer’s business to pressure patients to adopt their own faith. That’s just not ethical.

  46. Orora*

    LW2: My advice as an HR Manager is to lead with Ryan’s racism and sexual harassment if you go to HR. Sometimes, HR will hear “fart jokes” and “pranks” as an issue for a manager to solve. Also, while those items are professionally immature and bad judgement, they aren’t illegal.

    But racism and sexual harassment should make HR prick up their ears and take it more seriously. While I like to hope that my HR peers would be sensitive and knowledgeable enough to see that all of Ryan’s behavior is a problem, that’s not always the case.

  47. fhqwhgads*

    Doing these things:
    * Physical pranks (lowering colleagues’ chairs while they’re working)
    * Graphic discussions of his sex life
    * Showing explicit images to female colleagues
    * Making racist and anti-immigrant comments

    is fundamentally NOT NICE.

    Dude might project “nice”, but dude is both unkind and a harasser.

  48. Ann O'Nemity*

    I’m applying for a similar role at a larger company in a different industry. The advertised starting salary is a 30% increase for me, but the title is a step down (Associate Director vs Director).

    I’m a bit worried about how this will look on my resume longer term, like I went backwards.

    Has anyone ever experienced something similar? Did it hold you back? How did you talk about it?

  49. DJ*

    LW#1 that’s terrible as well prophelyising to clients is terrible doing this to a vulnerable person is even worse. Far different to general chit chat over what the tech does in their spare time eg the church I attend had a fete vs the sporting group… That can make a person in your situation feel worse whether you did take up the presented religion or not. For example thrown new thoughts into the mix such as what’s wrong with me for not believing, I’ve converted and it hasn’t worked I’m not trying hard enough.
    Yes report this to you psychiatrist!

  50. Ana*

    LW1, one thing to be aware of is that Alison isn’t from the area you describe and neither are most of the commenters. You may get total agreement here, and you may receive a very different response in your area

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