how do we hire people who won’t be alarmed by our cardboard coworker?

by Alison Green on March 18, 2026

A reader writes:

Recently my manager asked me to help revise a job posting and the hiring process because the last two people we hired left only a few weeks after starting. One said she didn’t think our workplace had a professional environment, and the other said she realized her values didn’t align with the company. Since I’m the most recent successful hire, my manager wants me to help her understand what was different about how I was selected.

You’re probably assuming my workplace must be toxic or terrible, but honestly it’s the most fun place I’ve ever worked, and that might actually be the problem. Nothing about it fits the usual idea of a bad workplace, but it is definitely … peculiar.

People often eat lunch together. Not everyone every day, but a few times a week most of us end up eating with coworkers. (Not everyone participates. The person who splits tasks with me says she already sees us enough at the office and never joins us, and no one minds.) Lunch is where most of the unusual things happen.

One employee created a betting sheet for which celebrity will be the next to die or get involved in a scandal. You can add one name per month, and if you guess correctly you win a day off. It sounds worse written down than it actually feels, but the people who participate genuinely enjoy it.

Lunch conversations can also drift into very unprofessional territory. The week one employee resigned, the lunch debate was whether extraterrestrials are capable of orgasms. That discussion lasted more than one lunch break because people kept proposing different possible alien anatomies.

But the least professional thing we do might be the cardboard figure sitting at a desk named Robert. Robert has been part of the company culture long before I joined. The story behind him is about a former employee who would arrive, greet everyone, and then disappear until it was time to go home. No one ever knew where Robert was, and whenever someone needed him they couldn’t find him, but the work always appeared completed.

One day the company needed a team photo, and someone grabbed a cardboard box, drew a face on it, added a badge, and included “Robert” in the picture. After the real Robert retired, the box eventually evolved into a full cardboard cutout that now sits at its own desk.

At the end of each month we usually have less work, and there’s a game where someone hides Robert somewhere in the company and everyone searches for him. At the end, everyone gets candy. Not everyone actively participates, one person keeps a map coordinating where Robert hasn’t been searched for yet, some people give suggestions, and others don’t care about the game, but no one objects to it except HR did ban hiding Robert in the interview room and the public-facing areas.

Both employees who resigned witnessed a “Find Robert” search. They didn’t mention it specifically, but I imagine it might have contributed to their impression that the environment wasn’t professional.

My manager wants help finding people who would think these things are funny rather than strange, and she asked how I felt when I started. I happened to begin (luckily or unluckily) when people were decorating Robert with a heart-pattern tie and a box of bonbons while discussing what kind of box Robert would like as a girlfriend. I thought it was weird in a funny way, and it didn’t bother me enough to reconsider the job.

Outside of lunch and the occasional Robert hunt, people are actually very professional during working hours, aside from occasionally greeting the cardboard coworker or decorating him for holidays. We’re a very productive and inclusive team, but I understand how it might seem strange to someone seeing it for the first time.

I honestly don’t know how to help my manager find competent people who would be comfortable with this environment. The person who interviewed me said the team was laid-back, but that definitely didn’t prepare me for what the office is actually like.

Someone suggested hiding Robert for a while, but wouldn’t it be better for new hires to know what they’re getting into? How could we find people who would feel comfortable discussing whether the aliens from Arrival understand sex and also think it’s perfectly normal to greet a cardboard coworker?

I realize your answer might be that our company isn’t the wonderful place I think it is and that we should behave more professionally. But considering that our CEO once hid Robert in his own office during one of the searches, I don’t think the culture will change. (Still, feel free to say so if that’s your view, sometimes an outside perspective is very different.) I’m mainly looking for ideas on how to select people who would actually find this kind of thing fun rather than uncomfortable.

I don’t think people are quitting over Robert, unless Robert is way more of a focal point than it sounds like he is. Lots of offices have Robert-type traditions that people have fun with.

If it were just Robert, then the way to screen for people who won’t be unhappy in your culture would be to talk about your culture in interviews — explain the Robert tradition as a way of painting a picture of what working there is like.

But I think the issue is more likely to be other aspects of the culture. The biggest problem with talking about whether aliens have orgasms isn’t that it’s unprofessional; it’s that a lot of people don’t want to hear their coworkers talking about sex, period, and you’re in territory where it’s going to be very easy for people to feel working at your company requires tolerating a sexualized atmosphere that they don’t want at work, which is a form of sexual harassment.

Now, maybe the alien orgasm conversation was an anomaly, but you said that lunch conversations drift into “very unprofessional territory” regularly. And here’s the thing: if a topic is inappropriate during work hours, it’s inappropriate during lunch too, if you’re eating with colleagues. If the topic might make someone feel sexually harassed at 2 pm, that doesn’t change just because it’s happening at 12:30 over sandwiches. And legally, employers are responsible for it all.

You might figure you know everyone is comfortable with it — but (a) you definitely can’t know that when you have new hires, and (b) even people who have been around for a while won’t always speak up when they’re uncomfortable because they don’t want to be seen as a party pooper. That’s why you need to just steer clear of that stuff at work, period. There are still tons of interesting topics that don’t involve sex (or religion or violence or politics, the other big ones to avoid).

If what your boss is really asking is, “How can we hire employees who won’t object to working in a sexualized environment?” … well, that’s the wrong question to ask. The question needs to be, “How can change our culture so people don’t feel this is a sexualized environment?” You mentioned you’re an inclusive team, but by definition this isn’t inclusive — so if inclusivity is something you value, this is something that you’ve got to change.

{ 569 comments }

{ 569 comments… read them below }

      1. Andrew*

        Get some smoked fish too, because I agree with Alison that Robert is a red herring here. LW’s company having trouble retaining employees likely owes FAR more to the wildly unprofessional lunchtime talk (which sounds like it might legally constitute harassment at times!) than to a quirky piece of office decor.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I find the celebrity death pool pretty gruesome too. It’s one thing to say “always happens in threes” or something, but betting on death? Ick.

          1. e271828*

            It’s not just betting on death, it’s employer-rewarded betting on death (winners get a day off)! What the what?!

            1. Terrie*

              But it sounds worse than it is! Which, given how awful it sounds, leaves lots of room for it to be really, really bad.

            2. Dawn*

              Which basically compels people to participate even if they don’t feel comfortable with it, because, and I need to stress this, the reward is an extra paid day off.

            3. Immaterial*

              yeah, this feels much wilder when it is sponsored by the company.

              Plus I can see how this would read as pretty unfair and weird to base employee compensation off of.

          2. Spaypets*

            My newspaper had a ghoul pool, but the winner got the pot, not a day off. But death is news, not morbid, so our perspective might have been skewed.

            1. anotherfan*

              this might be situational. Every newspaper I ever worked at during a nearly 50 year career had some form of celebrity death pool, even if it was just in name and not putting money in a pot. We also had a “still alive, who knew?!?” pool. I mean, the library is called the morgue, right? Newspapers deal in death and destruction all the time and dark humor is a tradition. But a lot of places are not newspapers, and people can find joking about death in poor taste. I’d find most of this pretty amusing but I can see why people find it off-putting and it’s better to err on the side of inclusion and keep the squick for private conversations not at lunch.

          3. Caffeine Monkey*

            Back in my days in the newsroom of a local newspaper, we had a death pool, but there was nothing official about it – it was 10p to enter, and first death won the pot. There definitely wasn’t any time off at stake.

            (Anybody who worked in news in the 90s knows we prided ourselves on our callousness. Hopefully that’s changed, but I doubt it.)

          4. Boring Mosasaurus*

            Yeah, Robert wouldn’t bother me at all, but the death pool would skeeve me out. Betting on death is not for me.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Definitely the lunch topics. I might enjoy a conversation like that with coworkers IF we were talking about it at a pub, off-hours, at a voluntary social get-together. But at work, nah.

          Robert wouldn’t bother me at all. I would probably think it’s cute. I used to work at a place where someone left behind a cardboard Frankenstein’s monster (the Karloff one) they’d brought in for Halloween, and we would hide it all over the place and scare each other with it. My boss put it behind the door in the bathroom and got me good. :)

          They also left a rubber rat that we’d put on each other’s lunch in the fridge. I still have that rat — it’s on my windowsill right now. :)

          1. Ellie*

            My last office had a giant toy bear that had its own desk, chair and work pass. They used to joke about how he was often the most productive member of the team. I agree that whatever the problem is, it’s not Robert.

            OP, if you haven’t already, have a look at the demographics of the people who have stayed vs the people who have left. If you’re driving out everyone over 35 then there’s a problem. If you’re driving out every woman who doesn’t have a hide of lead then there’s a problem.

            1. Esmae*

              My library had Scary Baby, an unsettling baby doll puppet that occasionally appeared at people’s desks or in their desk drawers. We did not have staff lunches where we talked about alien sex. (I mean, as far as I know).

      2. BurnOutCandidate*

        My last workplace had a stuffed Spider-Man, about six feet tall. One tradition was he was decorated for the holidays.

        1. COHikerGirl*

          One of the departments at my job has a cardboard cutout of Jeff Goldblum. The worst he ever does is make someone think someone is standing in the area out of the corner of one’s eye.

          I believe he currently has a hat on and is holding a soda.

          1. Nightengale*

            I did my fellowship training in a department where the head was well known in our field and traveled a lot. At one point before I started, he was away on a trip, They made a “Cardboard [NAME]” and then proceeded to take pictures of it with coworkers in a conference room, looking pensively out the window, etc. It was charming and in character for both him and the department, and he loved seeing the pictures when he got back.

            The problem here is definitely not the mere presence of a cardboard coworker.

          2. Media Monkey*

            another office in my old job had one of barack obama. we got used to him popping up in the background of teams calls, wearing tinsel at christmas and maybe a flower garland for the summer.

        2. Beebs*

          I have a cardboard cutout of my boss in my office (the cutouts were made for a very specific promotional purpose, and then one day one just showed up in my office). I’ve grown fond of it and no one else cares. It’s not Robert that’s making people flee.

        3. Reluctant Mezzo*

          Now I know what to do with my extra Hawaiian leis and my rather huge collection of Mardi Gras beads!

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        We have a teensy tiny ghost taped to a pipe near the ceiling, just peeking out. One manager changes his hat/outfit to fit the season, so you glance up and he’s wearing an Easter bonnet, or a Santa hat.

        2. Potatohead*

          When I worked in a factory, my station had a tiny cardboard cutout of Bigfoot that we hid in places for the next shift to find. Only rule was that it had to be visible from the working bench. Lasted a few years, but eventually died out after a new supervisor was hired and the weekend shift couldn’t ‘borrow’ the boom lift to hide him in the ceiling birders anymore.

      4. The Rural Juror*

        We had a cardboard cutout of a manager who traveled extensively, so he was only in the office like 1 week a month. I don’t even remember who took the time to make it (we have a huge printer that uses 36” rolls, so they made it in house) but it was hilarious. It was called Flat John. He had holiday hats and wore a flower lei when Real John was out on vacation. Sometimes he played pranks on people like hiding behind the door of a conference room. Several people on Zoom calls asked me about him when they could see him in my background.

        Then Real John retired and requested that Flat John go home with him. It was kind of a sad day.

      5. Max*

        When I last worked in an office, we had one of the those inflatable clown punching bag things that got moved from desk chair to desk chair.

      6. Lurking Mothman*

        This wasn’t at work, but my partner hates social events, and for their prom (year 11) they sent a cardboard cut out with their face on. There are group photos with the cardboard cut out and everything

    2. That Paralegal*

      Lordt. Robert is not the problem. Days-long conversation about alien sex and orgasms? Uh, ew. No thank you? I’m not a prude in my personal life but I don’t want this kind of thing at work. And when everyone ELSE is enthusiastically participating? It’s clear I’m not a good fit, and it’s hard to know how that plays out in regard to projects, promotions, etc.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Not to mention the Celebrity Death Pool. That’s pretty likely to upset some people. If I understand correctly, betting on who dies first is not only allowed but *officially* rewarded with a PTO day (that one can only be awarded if one participates)?

        I’d be pretty upset if one of my coworkers was really happy when Jesse Jackson died, even knowing the context.

  2. my cat was prettier than me*

    Maybe I’m weird (okay, I’m definitely weird), but I would love working here.

      1. Malarkey01*

        I once inherited a new team that was the “fun kooky group” that everyone loved and had such a great office vibe where people could oft out and management was fine with them…. When I had my first one on ones with each person, the majority said they did not actually like how the team acted and it was just 4 ringleaders, my new director told me that one of my first tasks was to get things under control, and the manager of the team next to mine begged me to please calm things down on behalf of her team.

        All that to say that it’s usually really rare that everyone likes what’s happening.

    2. EPluribusYourMom*

      SAME! I have a whacky sense of humor/whimsy and this sounds right up my alley. I’d be like the Split Task person and leave at lunch but it sounds like that isn’t considered weird either.

      The tradition with Robert had me cracking up. We had something something at my last job where our CEO would come into the office, leave his glasses on his desk, and then take off for the day. A lot of people assumed he was in a meeting because who would leave their glasses?

      When he finally retired we put a pair of glasses on his office wall as a joke.

      1. Amy the Rev*

        I loved the Robert tradition, too!!

        We do a very silly yankee swap at christmas time (we’re a church and so most of the staff get their items from the church thrift store, its really just for giggles), and one year one of the gifts was a mannequin head, fully make-up, with blue, purple, and pink hair. We hide her in various spots around the staff offices and refer to her as “the head of staff”. She’s currently sitting atop the clothes hanger that my clergy robes are on…

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Robert is fun!

        Having to avoid all lunches with my team because they might decide to have long discussions about orgasms, bet on which person is going to die first, or other “extremely unprofessional” things would not be fun.

    3. MJR*

      Honestly, me too. They sound like a bunch of weirdos. As long as we’re keeping the genitalia to the non-human variety I wouldn’t be offended. However, I could see how others might not find that brand of humor funny.

      1. Stoney Lonesome*

        I used to work at an aquarium and there was a sexual harassment accusation while I was there. They brought in an outside firm to investigate. I think they interviewed most of the staff. One of the thing they asked about was lunch time conversations and whether inappropriate topics ever came up. All of us weren’t really sure how to answer because, although we did not talk about human sex or genitalia, non-human genitalia came up a lot! But it was part of our work and animals have no shame on the subject. In fact, one of the sharks loved to rub his male parts on the glass directly in front of visitor faces. We weren’t going to not talk about that at lunch.

        (The sexual harassment accusation ended up being unfounded, but that’s a story for a different time.)

        1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          But the difference is that your shark wasn’t fictional. This was your actual workplace. I used to work somewhere we hired actors to play medical patients and those employees had to be in their underwear and a hospital gown for their work shift, so they were half dressed in front of their coworkers. But that was relevant to the job.

          The lunch topics here are going to get someone in trouble.

        2. CoffeeTime*

          Yea I think that’s the one element where Alison’s answer doesn’t quite land for me – I know that officially speaking these topics are Not Allowed At Work – but I don’t think that can realistically be blanket applied to the real world.

          In large part because the workplace and industry have an impact on whether this kind of conversation is a huge no-go or more of a “read the room” to gauge where the line is vibe. If the LW works in anything adjacent to the entertainment or advertising industry there’s a solid chance that comfort with being in the room for adult humour and conversation is not just an expectation but a requirement.
          Whereas someone working with a strict religious organization may be considered crossing the line by talking about spending a weekend at their partner’s house before marriage would be considered inappropriate.

          1. different seudonym*

            Uh, friend, it is perfectly possible to avoid sexual topics in social conversation. That is true everywhere, for everyone. If the human mind is capable of recognizing the category, then we can make choices about whether to discuss it or not.

            Saying this standard “[can’t] realistically be blanket applied to the real world” is just declining to care or bother.

            1. Anna Is Tired*

              I kind of agree with both of you here.

              SHOULD people and workplaces be capable of this? Yes. Unambiguously.

              ARE people capable of doing better, in the way most folk are capable of washing their hands after using the restroom? Yes.

              But. If you’re within the system, you can’t avoid the nature of the aggregated experience. As a woman in tech, I’ve seen a distinct scatterplot of things that will grind you down if you’re surprised by them – if you believe them to be *entirely avoidable* – or worse, if you make yourself the face of change.

              Should they be tolerated? No.
              Can you avoid them? Well…
              You avoid them by getting a different job (which is like avoiding radiation by leaving the scene of the meltdown) or avoiding the people in question (building a lead bunker) or growing a thicker skin (wearing a radiation suit).

              I want to be very careful here not to indicate that *putting up with toxic industry norms* is unavoidable. There are ways of navigating bad dynamics that don’t involve knuckling under. But some industries are like nuclear power plants – you have to have a plan for if there’s a meltdown.

            2. Scrimp*

              Can you really not concieve of any job ever, anywhere, where sex/genetalia would be just totally fine and normal to talk about?

              I can think of at least 6 such jobs right off the top of my head.

              I will say that it seems like it would be relevant if the LW were in such a job, so we probably would’ve been told that in the letter if they were. But, we had strayed a bit from that point I think.

              1. Magnolia Cordelia*

                If you’re a gynecologist or a urologist, then talking about body parts between the legs is part of your job. That is completely different from a lunch conversation where people talk about the genitals of aliens from other planets. Since there have been no official reports of aliens on other planets visiting Earth (no, conspiracy theories don’t count), there is literally no job where talking about alien thang-thangs and hoo-ha’s is necessary for work (with the possible exception of sci-fi and fantasy movie writers and producers. However, I have a feeling that LW doesn’t work for a company that produces alien sex films, because if so, they would have mentioned it in the letter).

          2. Observer*

            If the LW works in anything adjacent to the entertainment or advertising industry there’s a solid chance that comfort with being in the room for adult humour and conversation is not just an expectation but a requirement.

            It’s not for nothing that the Harvey Wienstien scandal happened in that industry. I mean #MeToo wasn’t just entertainment, but at least in other industries there was *some* pretense.

          3. MigraineMonth*

            I agree that there are some workplaces where it’s acceptable to talk about topics that wouldn’t be acceptable in other workplaces. The SNL writing crew is going to be exchanging ideas with a lot of adult content. An employee at Planned Parenthood would need to be comfortable discussing STDs. Some gallows humor is often allowed in jobs that deal with death frequently.

            I think “anything adjacent to entertainment or advertising” is way too broad, though. There’s no reason for writers for Sesame Street or marketers for a brand of cheese to have to put up with sex talk at work.

            1. Katie Impact*

              There was in fact a landmark sexual harassment lawsuit (Lyle vs Warner Bros, 2006) over conversations in the writers’ room for the sitcom Friends that ended up being dismissed by the court because of the nature of the job. That doesn’t mean it should be a free-for-all where no boundaries exist, but courts have historically given a lot of leeway to talk that’s plausibly related to work in creative fields.

            2. Southern Violet*

              The difference in all those examples is that it is relevant to work to talk about it.

              In no way is the conversation discussed in the letter professional or related to work.

          4. Southern Violet*

            Uh if you can’t avoid sexual topics, that’s a you problem. And you should really fix it before you cost your company on a harassment suit.

      2. Observer*

        As long as we’re keeping the genitalia to the non-human variety I wouldn’t be offended.

        I’d be willing to bet that they are not. Because they also had a discussion about what kind of box Robert would like as a girlfriend. I’d be willing to bet that it wasn’t just about “personality”.

        Also, it’s not just the genitalia. It’s also the betting pool. Talk about “values”.

    4. MsM*

      I think I’d have a lot of fun hanging out with them at game night. But I’d have serious concerns about their ability to recognize when they need to rein it in if I found myself in the middle of an explicit discussion about alien anatomy during the workday, much less over the course of multiple days.

      1. Lacey*

        Yeah. I think, this could be a fun bunch of people – but it can’t be that ONLY people who enjoy this type of fun can work there.

        I work in a quirky office myself. But when I was new, I did not understand some of the quirks and I actively avoided dealing with one coworker inparticular because his behavior made me uncomfortable.

        The moment he realized this – he stopped. Now that I know him better – I wouldn’t be uncomfortable anymore, but part of that is him being able to realize that just because everyone else in the office doesn’t mind a thing – doesn’t meant the one person who does has to buck up and deal with it.

      2. But what to call me?*

        The multiple days part is what would really get to me. One lunch could be one conversation that went a little off the rails. Continuing to bring it up over multiple days makes you wonder if it’s ever going to stop or if alien genitalia is just your life now for as long as you work there.

    5. Not on board*

      Yeah, I’d be fine to work at a place like this. However, I probably wouldn’t ever bring up anything remotely innapropriate as a lunchroom topic of conversation. I’m sure I wouldn’t be offended, and if something bothered me I’m comfortable enough speaking up to tell others to knock it off.

      But this is not for everyone. A lot of people want to fit in at work, but maybe aren’t comfortable with the lunchroom conversations, and are conflict avoidant or introverted and don’t want to speak up. I think limiting conversations to stuff that won’t be deemed unprofessional, or even just encouraging people to speak up if a topic makes them uncomfortable, would be my suggestion.

      1. Miette*

        I too would love this place, but perhaps instead of encouraging speaking up, a safe word could be established for anyone to use for any reason? This could extend beyond saucy topics to someone not wanting to talk about a co-worker’s surgery or about childbirth or whatever – there are any number of topics some folks just don’t want to participate in, I think

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            That sounds perfect and really in keeping with the culture. They could sort of establish a norm where if the conversation becomes uncomfortable, somebody says, “not in front of Robert” in mock-disapproving tones or something along those lines, which would be a reminder to rein it in while maintaining the fun atmosphere.

          2. Princess Sparklepony*

            This is making me wish for a like button! That would be a perfect way to add a “cool it” function to the group.

        2. xylocopa*

          I get what you’re saying, but if I joined a workplace and was promptly given a safeword that would send me running.

          In general though there’s value in a culture of making it easy for people to change the subject.

          1. A banker*

            OMG that comment made me cackle out loud! yeah, “welcome to the team, here is your assigned safe word” isn’t really the first impression they ought to be going for.

    6. Popinki*

      My office is a lot like this. We have plenty of conversations that are definitely NOT professional and we have our own silly things we do, like the Birthday Scarecrow until it fell apart.

      There was one time one guy (coincidentally named Robert) was on vacation so I took a balloon and drew his face on it, and taped it to the headrest of his chair in case his office mate wanted to cuss him out while he was gone. When he got back he was delighted, and kept it around even as it shrunk down to tiny size.

      1. Amateur Linguist*

        We had a team meeting in a boardroom that had ended up as a storeroom for broken medical equipment until someone got round to fixing it. Those CPR training dummies (or some kind of more sophisticated mannequin, IDK what it was but it was human-shaped and life-size) can look very realistic, particularly if they’re wearing scrubs and lying on a hospital bed. This was not a major hospital with people running back and forward with stretchers and drips and so on, although that hospital does have some inpatient clinics, so the bed wasn’t necessarily out of place.

        Also I once posted a picture to an eBay forum with two soft toys of Looney Tunes characters in a compromising position. Like, completely accidentally (we were all buying them from a shop that had a promotion on them then trying to flip them — this was 2005 so a while before HMRC caught on to a lot of people trying to make money off eBay and started forcing people to adhere to consumer regulations and so on) but still, you know, not the best picture of plushies to show off.

        That’s the sort of humour I can get behind. But again, if it’s chafing at other people’s sensitivities then I can see why you’d want to do it sparingly. It loses flavour if you do it too often.

      2. Jay (no, the other one)*

        I came back from vacation once to discover that one of my officemates had acquired a label maker. The two of them had labeled every single thing on my desk. JAY’S COMPUTER. JAY’S PENCIL (on every pencil). JAY’S POST-IT NOTES. On the back of my chair it just said JAY. You get the idea. It was hilarious.

    7. Jennifer Strange*

      I’m the same. That said I worked for a long time in theatres which tend to be a bit of an anomaly since sometimes the subject matter of a show is something that otherwise wouldn’t be professional (I wasn’t in the show, but I worked in fundraising so we often did have to discuss the show in certain ways). I can see why it wouldn’t be someone’s cup of tea, but I alos know folks who would absolutely thrive here.

    8. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      I’m also weird and a lot of what the LW describes would be appealing to me. The Robert thing is adorable. I have a dark enough sense of humour that the celebrity death / scandal betting wouldn’t bother me (and I’d probably participate, TBH).

      Where you lose me is the sexualized atmosphere. Even if I didn’t have objections to the specific topic of alien orgasms, the environment would leave me seriously on edge, worrying about what the next topic of conversation would be and whether I’d be asked personal questions I don’t want to answer. The group has demonstrated that the collective perception of where the line separating appropriate and inappropriate topics at work is very different than in a typical workplace. It’s entirely reasonable to question what other topics are on the table here that would never fly at most workplaces. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that one new employee left the week that those conversations happened over lunch.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Yeah, my team tends to be very casual with each other, and we have a lot of conversations that entertain us but are definitely not for everybody, but there are definitely times where conversation veers into something marginally questionable and somebody (usually me or somebody else on my level – aka more senior than a big part of our team) will say, “That sounds like a beer conversation,” to basically shut it down and move us on. We’re not against the conversation, and have often picked them up outside of work hours/events, but we know there’s a time and a place.

        Without hearing from the OP that the office has a sense of which conversations need to happen elsewhere or not, I definitely agree that they’re the problem and not Robert.

        1. Observer*

          Without hearing from the OP that the office has a sense of which conversations need to happen elsewhere or not, I definitely agree that they’re the problem and not Robert.

          Based on what the OP says, I would say that they absolutely do *not* have that sense.

          For one thing, they admit that the topis *sounds* bad but it’s really ok because is doesn’t “feel bad” to them. And there was an ongoing conversation over several days! that happened the week someone resigned – which tells me that that person *was* uncomfortable, but no one noticed or they noticed and did not care.

          Note that the OP says that their boss wants to find someone who would think this is “funny”.

      2. Chirpy*

        This, I did once work at a place that not only had one normal “Roberta” but also a creepy one. It was fun until people went WAY overboard with it (both were left in places that would have been very awkward if a visitor had seen them) and the director had to put a stop to it.

        BUT. While we definitely had some wild conversations, they didn’t veer into harassment territory. OP has a conversation culture problem. Robert is just the goofy icing on the uncomfortable cake.

      3. HQetc*

        Yeah, 100%. Honestly, the fact that the LW thinks this is about The Robert is, to me, the most concerning thing here, because it suggests to me that their sense of what is likely to make people uncomfortable (for very good reasons) is pretty miscalibrated. The Robert is kooky, and I’m sure there are plenty of people who wouldn’t like it, but that falls under legit culture mis-match to me, and it’s totally reasonable to select for people who would find it fun or not care.

        The sexualized conversations are inappropriate and exclusionary. I say this as a fairly uninhibited person, but sex talk is not for work, even if it’s non-human sex talk. Sex is personal, private, and frankly pretty fraught for a lot of people. I don’t think it’s appropriate at all, but if you want to take an inclusivity lens, the set of people who are likely to find sex talk *exceptionally* uncomfortable could very possibly fall along lines of stuff like religion or sexual assault or harassment history. And you don’t know that shit.

        Thought experiment (I am not saying I think this is the case, just that it’s a possibility worth considering) – it’s possible that your coworker who never comes to lunch would actually like to socialize with her colleagues and build the types of relationships that could benefit her both personally and professionally, but she is actually really uncomfortable with the topics and decided to just take the hit on relationship building to avoid feeling uncomfortable and maybe harassed and othered. There’s not really a way for you to know one way or the other.

        1. Arrietty*

          I think there are also people who would be uncomfortable talking about aliens as though they were real (whether for religious reasons or not), and while a one-off conversation would be tolerable, repeatedly returning to the topic does seem more unusual and uncomfortable. Add the sex aspect and it crosses the line for me.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          That was my thought as well: I’m betting that person would like to be able to occasionally have lunch conversations with coworkers without wondering from one minute to the next what NSFW topic would be next.

          It actually reminds me a little bit of the manager who got in trouble for having an exclusionary team. She took the team on mid-day beer runs and always left the one report who wasn’t interested in drinking to cover the office. Yes, it’s best to let people opt out of non-work activities, but if you’re always leaving out one person then they’re going to be excluded by the team.

      4. Jojo*

        I agree with Grumpy Millennia. Robert is fine, but the alien orgasm thing would make me very uncomfortable. I would end up avoiding the lunch group and feel like a bit of an outsider.

        Something else that came to mind, LW what kind of work do you do? We have fun in my office, and we play pranks. However, our work is pretty important and there are serious safety matters that we handle. When those things are in play, we stop the joking and the pranks. So maybe reflect upon the type of work you do, and consider if your company culture might be a bit jarring in relation to the seriousness of your work. (I realize that you don’t want to give identifiable information, and this may not be relevant, but just another perspective to consider.)

      5. LureKing*

        Yeah, I’m surprised the top comment here is “I’d love to sexually harass new coworkers”, which Allison spelled out so clearly is the problem.

        1. my cat was prettier than me*

          All I said was that I would love it. I never want to make people uncomfortable, so I definitely wouldn’t have these discussions around new coworkers until it was clear they were cool with it. I don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

          1. Rags*

            But what Alison is getting to in her response is how difficult it is to make sure people are comfortable with it, especially when you have new people who don’t have the capital to speak up about something. That’s why some topics are better friend topics than workplace ones.

          2. Orora*

            The problem is that you may never know who’s “cool with it” and who’s not. Many people (particularly new hires) may not feel comfortable speaking up about certain subjects, especially sexualized ones. The existence of alien orgasms may be a fun topic when having a beer with your friends, but it’s just not appropriate for a workplace. I speak as someone who came of age during the dot.com boom and it was the wild west for “fun” workplaces. More than once I had to corral the conversation back to appropriate topics when it got too sexual, even in meetings. Often, it went far beyond what I was comfortable with, but I didn’t want to say anything sooner for fear of being the “girl who can’t take a joke”.

            It’s pretty easy to find interesting topics to discuss that aren’t a potential harassment lawsuit.

            1. PotatoRock*

              This is bringing back all of the feelings of being the only woman as an intern, sitting in the lunch room, listening to the senior (all male) engineers discuss the beach volleyball Olympics match on the break room TV. I was absolutely uncomfortable, and I was absolutely not going to speak up.
              and someone saying “oh if you’re uncomfortable, you can just say ‘Robert is uncomfortable’ and we’ll stop immediately” would not have changed that.

          3. MigraineMonth*

            I get what you mean about wanting to work there. I often have NSFW conversations with my friends, and I would love to be able to spend my workday hanging out with them.

            That’s very different than having NSFW conversations with strangers, though. You don’t know how far they’re going to go, or if it’s a prelude to more direct sexual harassment. That’s the situation every new hire is walking into (they don’t know these coworkers yet), so I’m not surprised they’re losing their new people.

            1. Boring Mosasaurus*

              This is where I land – once people start down the inappropriate road, you don’t know where it’s going to end up. And if everyone else is laughing and going along with it, you’re going to feel very uncomfortable and like an outsider.

          4. Southern Violet*

            But you can’t ever know if they are cool with it or just avoiding confrontation.

            Nor should anyone ever have to decide whether they are cool with sex talk at work (that isn’t directly related to the job eg gyn).

      6. Clisby*

        Agreed. Also, I find it odd that these co-workers eat together so often. Kudos to the co-workers who doesn’t participate, saying she sees enough of these people at work. I’ll bet she does.

        1. Claire*

          I worked at a small office where 90% of the staff ate lunch together every single day and I hated it. Sure, you could leave if you had an errand, but otherwise there was a ton of implicit pressure to come sit and eat lunch and talk for 80 minutes a day. It was the office staff in an academic department, so I don’t think they had any idea of how suffocating others might find it. There were also issues with power dynamics with faculty and nearly every faculty member constantly misgendered the one trans person on the team. The chief of staff thought it was a sign of a good culture, but really it was just a sign of *their* culture.

      7. NoMoreFirstTimeCommenter*

        Extremely good point about people worrying about the next conversation. I wouldn’t necessarily mind a conversation about alien sex (depending on the exact details) but I wouldn’t want to discuss MY sex life at work. If hypothetical sex stuff comes up a lot in the discussions, it’s a very realistic possibility that you would start to wonder, what direction is this going to and will it get uncomfortable soon?

        And discussing aliens, I don’t really understand why people often imagine them to be very human-like with just some small details different. Maybe there are aliens who reproduce asexually. How cool would it be if they could divide themselves to two new individuals, like bacteria here! Maybe they do reproduce sexually but don’t particularly enjoy the process and only do it when they actively want to make new aliens. They would probably find it difficult to understand why humans use their baby-making parts so “wrong”. And so on, there are numerous possibilities… but somehow I think this kind of speculation wouldn’t really fit in in OP’s lunch group. It’s probably more about sex than creating topics for speculative fiction!

        1. Bay*

          I had a similar reaction– I wouldn’t mind this topic with friends, but the focus on orgasms in particular seems to plant it more in ‘edgy! Scandalous! How fun–!’ territory and less in the natural (?) direction for this kind of thing, which in my opinion would be a debate on the evolutionary advantages/disadvantages of asexual reproduction in various possible not-Earth ecosystems

      8. Terrie*

        I worked in a call center where the nature of the work meant we were all a little loopy. Lots of nonsense. Lots of sarcasm. Lots of silly traditions. (“On Wednesdays, we wear black. Some of the guys are too chicken to wear pink”). There was a small wildlife area near that office with a lot of geese, so “Don’t make me put a goose under your desk” was a common joke/threat. Alien orgasms would have crossed the line.

        1. Becky Erring*

          I also use the goose threat, but one or two individuals have suggested they might enjoy it.

    9. Not Everyone Can Wear Sandwiches*

      I would need to know people pretty well before alien reproductive anatomy became a fun thing to discuss… and I work in an environment where bodily functions are not TMI (Animal health) but we do tend to keep discussions of anything related to humans a little more restrained.

      Robert, however, is hilarious. We have an ongoing (despite our best efforts) scavenger hunt in our lab for pieces of paper with pictures of our specialties (microscope etc) that were supposed to be found prior to an audit, as a reminder to check ALL the locations for cleanliness.

      They were hidden too well.

      1. Jackalope*

        Yeah, I worked for awhile at a zoo where we were breeding animals as a part of the endangered species rebound program (not the official name), so talking about reproduction was literally part of the job. And then when other animals decided to breed (not wanting to be left out just because they weren’t endangered), especially in front of visitors, it was also a common topic of conversation. But I don’t remember any such discussions bringing in humans or human mating behavior, and while some discussions could get a bit explicit that was because it was appropriate to the job.

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          I was at the zoo with a friend and her five-year-old when I saw giraffes doing…what they do to get more giraffes. I told my friend about it afterwards when we were out of five-year-old earshot and she was very annoyed I hadn’t told her in the moment. If it had been my kid I probably would have, since we were very open and direct about such things, but it was her kid….

          1. Lady Lessa*

            I was on the monorail trip at a wild animal park, the driver/tour guide pointed out that some mountain goats were being frisky. I thought it was good terminology, and allowed the parents to control how they talked to their kids. (I also praised them in a letter to management)

            1. Magnolia Cordelia*

              “allowed the parents to control how they talked to their kids”

              You mean human kids or goat kids? (sorry, I couldn’t resist)

        2. HQetc*

          I think the human/non-human distinction is not really the right lens. The more relevant element, as you note, is work-related/relevant or not. Of course discussion of animal sexual behavior comes up in these context, and might drift beyond the boundaries of strictly necessary for the work, but you’re also talking about sets of people who, by their career choice, have signaled some level of comfort with those topics, and thus the line for appropriateness still exists, but is draw in a slightly different place. But you still don’t want to go too far beyond the work-related boundaries, because then you lose the knowledge about what coworkers are comfortable with. I am assuming that alien orgasms are not related to the topic of work OP does, but even if they are, it sounds like they got too far from the “safe zone” of what the work demands comfort with.

    10. MK*

      Have you ever worked at a place like this? Because if not, I wouldn’t bet on whether you, or anyone, would actually love it. I think a lot more people think they would love a workplace like that, but in fact wouldn’t, at least not long-term.

      As someone who wouldn’t mind any single one of the things OP mentions in isolation, I wonder if all together wouldn’t end up being exhausting after a while. And more than that, this office seems very committed to its quirkiness, which makes me wonder if there are more issues, like the antics getting in the way of the actual work, or the company having a reputation in the industry.

      1. CTT*

        Yeah, I was a summer associate at a firm and my intern class happened to have a lot of jokesters who did some elaborate pranks the last day (that I did not participate in because I was trying to finish my case note for law review). This was very well-received by the firm and it seems like these summers were a culture fit, but it was SUPER disheartening for my exit interview to be 75% talking about the fun pranks, 25% my work product.

        I’m fine with a wacky environment, but not when it becomes more important than the woe being done.

      2. Abogado Avocado*

        I think we ought to ask if anyone here has worked for Southwest Airlines. I don’t think alien sex discussions are part of that workplace, but Southwest is renowned for having a fun and quirky workplace while getting customers safely to their destinations and on time. For example, when a newly hired gate agent goes out to direct a plane into the gate, it’s not uncommon for the pilot to spin the plane in a circle before coming into the gate. Southwest’s Halloween parties at their Dallas office also are renowned.

        Quirky workplaces can be great places to work.

        1. CTT*

          I think that’s an allowable amount of quirk, and balances with airlines being a highly regulated industry with tons of checklist and safety procedures. This workplace sounds like daily quirk, which as someone pointed out below, also doesn’t seem very laidback or fun if there is a requirement to participate.

      3. AMT*

        Yeah, first thought was that the letter-writer might have glossed over what “unprofessional” actually means here or picked the most innocent-sounding examples. Sure, there’s a scenario here where this is an office where people get work done and behave respectfully toward each other *and* have a corny sense of humor. But multiple people don’t normally resign over a cardboard box wearing a tie, so I have to wonder what the few examples the LW mentioned say about the larger culture.

        Is it loud and chaotic when people need to concentrate? Are they prioritizing silly stuff over deadlines? Do the LW’s coworkers feel excluded or bullied if they happen to have more reserved personalities? Are some people always the butt of the joke? I’ve definitely worked with people who thought they were the funniest people on the planet and wanted me to be their designated audience all the time (think Ricky Gervais in the original version of The Office), so I can empathize with the people who might feel exhausted by that. The LW and their friends might just…not be as funny as they think they are.

        1. BridgeofFire*

          And it’s even more damning if you are right in that. I’m not a prude, by any means. Just the opposite, and I might well participate in that chat about alien genitalia. But the fact that I am using that phrase to describe workplace lunch convos is…something, and if THAT’S a more innocent sounding example…just what DOES raise enough flags for the OP to not mention.

        2. Annie E. Mouse*

          The Office (either version) is exactly where I went while reading this too. It makes for funny tv, but trying to be productive in an environment where everyone is just so quirky that they can’t stand it is exhausting. Add in that people don’t seem to be able to distinguish between a quirky gag like Robert and detailed enough conversations about orgasms that it’s getting into types of genitalia (even if it is alien) and carrying over for days is worrying. I might personally not be offended by conversations about orgasms, but as a new hire I would seriously be wondering whether I would have any recourse if the topics veered into topics that would be a problem for me. Depending on the industry, I might be wondering whether this might have an impact on my reputation outside of the company as well.

      4. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I worked in an office where we spent a LOT of time talking about one coworker’s dating life, not sex life, but still, and were not afraid of an inappropriate remark, to the point where when the whole company had sexual harassment training, we all came out of it like, Hahaha, are we in trouble? I was in my 20s, thought it was fun, but it was actually terrible, I now realize!

    12. Nobby Nobbs*

      In a vacuum I’d love a conversation about hypothetical alien orgasms! In practice it sounds like a good way to find out that one of your coworkers doesn’t believe women can orgasm or something else equally offensive that you can’t un-learn about them.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is a really good point. I found out more stuff about the people I worked with in 2016 than I wanted to know.

    13. tiny dino*

      I used to work in an office/industry where none of this stuff would be out of place. And by itself, a lot of it was fun. But it was definitely the tip of a pretty dysfunctional iceberg–lots of gossip, backbiting, pettiness, favoritism, inequality, exploitation, and so on.

      I don’t know if that’s also the case here (I hope not!) but I admit that I’m wary of this kind of workplace now. Hopefully some offices are able to achieve moderate whimsy.

    14. Crazy Cat Dude*

      Same here, on both counts – I’m definitely weird, and I would enjoy working there.

      It’s certainly not for everyone, but the same is true of a more traditional office. I find the average office incredibly stifling, but I can also acknowledge that others can thrive in that environment. I don’t really buy that there’s just one definition of professionalism.

      1. Crazy Cat Dude*

        That said – I think giving a tangible benefit like PTO for a bet is a bad idea. People shouldn’t feel like they have to participate to get access to the same benefits as everyone else.

      2. Observer*

        I don’t really buy that there’s just one definition of professionalism.

        The thing is that this is not about professionalism. And the fact that the LW thinks it is, is concerning.

        When you are having conversations where you have to tell everyone that “it’s not as bad as it sounds” that’s a huge red flag. And a multi-day non-work related discussion of orgasms is deeply problematic in a different way. I don’t care how “professional” it is.

    15. Feral Humanist*

      I don’t think I’d hate it, either, though I think some of what is described certainly crosses the line from what I’ve been socialized to expect even in casual, friendly offices. As someone who has been in and around Star Trek fandom, the discussion of alien genitalia is not, on its own, off-putting, but I would be take aback to encounter it at work. (On the other hand, the number of times I had colleagues bring up watching Heated Rivalry to me during the height of that discourse was surprising…)

      I think this is a little bit like the dog-friendly office debate. For people who like this culture, working in such a place is a perk and they don’t want it to change. But there are (MANY) people for whom it would not work, and the question is whether the culture needs to change to be more inclusive of those people or whether they need to hire specifically to fit the culture. The latter is… problematic because it results in people hiring only people who remind them of themselves and that is bad for many reasons. Ultimately these sorts of cultures tend not to survive companies scaling up for that reasons… which is a bummer to people who were there from the beginning but possibly for the best overall.

      1. Death-cat*

        Bringing up Heated Rivalry in the same thought as alien genitalia is… interesting. Obviously, your coworkers might have crossed the line with how they discussed HR. But on its own, I don’t see any difference in work appropriateness between HR and any other HBO show containing sex.

        1. Southern Violet*

          Yea I’d have to know how they talked about it. Did they just say they watched it? Did they talk about the plot and skip the sex? Then that’s fine.

      2. But what to call me?*

        Alien genitalia is also a perfectly acceptable topic in my fandom discord community – in a channel that was specifically set up for NSFW conversations, which everyone who doesn’t want to hear those conversations can easily avoid with no fear of repercussions because no one in that community has anything to do with their ability to make a living or to coexist peacefully with the people they spend 40+ hours per week with. It can be a fun and interesting topic when the only people involved are the ones who have freely opted in. Unfortunately, you just can’t assume that to be true at work, especially with new employees.

    16. Yellow*

      Sign me up. Sounds like a fun place. And when I started at my job we had 2 cardboard cutouts! I loved it. I don’t know what happened to them, but I miss them.

    19. Immaterial*

      the Robert thing seems fine to me, but I would hate working there. I feel like these types of work shenanigans will favor younger, newer to the workforce folks.

  3. RIP Pillowfort*

    I’ve seen people anthropomorphize a traffic cone. He had a little safety vest and hard hat. So Robert, to me, isn’t the crux of the issue.

    But the lunch discussions are kind of yikes. I doubt that stays confined to lunch discussions and would bleed into other parts of the culture.

    1. Jennifer*

      That’s exactly what I thought, especially when the alien conversation lasted more than one lunch time. You’re telling me people completely stopped talking about it altogether for the rest of the workday and just dove back into it as soon as everyone sat down for lunch? Seems extremely unlikely.

      1. Varthema*

        I dunno, I’ve seen this kind of dynamic. sitting at the table, there’s a lull, someone’s like, hey, remember this funny thing we were talking about yesterday? And starts it back up.

        1. Skipper*

          But the point is that it’s not OK at lunch, just as much as it’s not OK any other time of the workday.

    3. D C F*

      That definitely leapt out at me, too. When LW goes on to say, “But the least professional thing we do might be the cardboard figure sitting at a desk named Robert,” my reaction was that The Cardboard Figure Is Not the Problem! I hope LW’s phrasing was just unfortunate and doesn’t actually indicate that they’ve lost perspective to that extent. Phew!
      Good luck to you and your management with re-establishing healthy boundaries in your office’s culture, LW! How to do that without creating resentment toward so-called killjoys, buzzkills, party-poopers, or “morality police” is a tough issue.

        3. darsynia*

          It’s never just the garlic, or the Iranian yogurt, but it DEFINITELY is the mixed-together rice. *shudder*

      2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        Yup. OP has so internalized the culture that they are not recognizing what the real problems are. That says, to me, that this culture is far more unwelcoming to outsiders than they think.

        1. Decima Dewey*

          Yes. It’s weird, and in a way that new hires wouldn’t anticipate.

          OP and others enjoy the culture and think it’s okay. But newbies would be thinking “this office may not be full of bees, but what about the swarms of millipeds under my office chair?”

        2. Dawn*

          I also have to wonder what OP is glossing over with “very unprofessional territory”. Are alien orgasms the worst of it? Or do the conversations go in directions where people who belong to certain demographics might feel uncomfortable? That line about how a former employee “said her values didn’t align with the company” really makes me wonder. That’s not phrasing that’s commonly used to mean, “this office is too wacky for me!”

    4. Antilles*

      Exactly. Robert is a bit quirky, but plenty of companies or offices have a corporate mascot or an unofficial office mascot. And there are a lot of employees who might bring in their own bobblehead of a local sports team or similar item to personalize their desk, so it’s not like this is unheard of even on an individual level.
      But the lunch discussions are kind of yikes. I doubt that stays confined to lunch discussions and would bleed into other parts of the culture.
      I agree, because it lasted “more than one lunch break”. Not only did they have a discussion that went off the rails and beyond the normal limits of workplace chitchat, but people were perfectly fine with going back to it the next day! Normally, if a discussion goes beyond the bounds of commonly accepted professionalism, people will quietly realize that “whoops probably shouldn’t have been chatting about that at work/with co-workers” and it gets quietly left as a one-off.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. The second day’s discussion was doubling down on the R-rayed topic. Professionalism needs to keep it PG.

        I remember having to reign in some cubicle talk about Game of Thrones or American Horror Story to leave out the explicit parts (also to avoid spoilers when episodes had just aired).

        2. No Tribble At All*

          Ugh yes I remember when Game of Thrones was a popular topic. I had to leave the room when there was a particularly rape-y episode being discussed.

      2. 98 degrees*

        Yeah, the last time I worked at a university, a life-size cardboard cut out of the school mascot had been left in the building from some previous open house event. (and the mascot is a mythical creature). Student affairs forgot about it so the mascot was in my building for several months. I wound up occasionally moving it around the building just for my own amusement. I always made sure that it was not blocking any doorways, or fire exits, or otherwise not in anyone’s actual way. When I came in one Monday and saw that student affairs had finally taken the cut-out back, I was honestly very bummed out :-(

        Since I was often in that building by myself and had occasional downtime, moving “Merv” around was just a dumb, silly thing to break up the monotony.

        1. Amateur Linguist*

          Good for you — sincerely. The most common safety issue I had to report back when they used to come to me to fill in was crap collecting in stairwells. Yes, we know it’s raining. I’m sorry, but leaving your bike in the exit stairwell means that if there’s a fire, it’s just one more obstacle to get in the way.

          Someone who knows how to have fun without putting anyone’s life in danger (or allowing combustible waste to pile up) is rare enough.

      3. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! I work at a health agency, so we can have work-related conversations that might be iffy elsewhere but are perfectly acceptable, because sometimes you have to discuss things that wouldn’t be appropriate in “polite company.” But there are limits to what you can discuss with coworkers, even casually at lunch.

        That seems more like a “happy hour that went on to long with coworkers who are also now good friends” conversation. Not a “casual lunch including new coworker” conversation.

        1. Kevin Sours*

          Especially casually at lunch. There is a lot more latitude when it’s related to the job.

        2. CDL Admin*

          Agreed! Gonna out myself slightly if any of my colleagues are on here, but I work at a CDL trucking school so we’re a little less “professional” than some, but even THEY know when to pull a conversation back. If we start veering too far off the beaten path, someone will say something like, “Annnnnd this is how we ended up in HR!” which signals to everyone that we should move on.

        3. Magnolia Cordelia*

          Come to think of it, even in a gynecologist’s or urologist’s office or other office where sex and sex organs is part of the business of work, there’s still a line to be drawn about what kind of talk is appropriate at lunch. Alien sex might be one of the things that crosses those lines, and talking about your own/your coworkers’ sex or sex organs certainly would be.

      4. Starbuck*

        It’s also a very, schoolroom juvenile attitude. Like, we can’t say this stuff at our desks during work time, but in the lunchroom anything goes. That’s how middle schoolers act, you know? Saying all the things they can’t get away with during class time at lunch when the adults aren’t around. They know it’s out of bounds, that’s why it’s happening at lunch.

      5. But Of Course*

        I tell new coworkers my office is unicorn-themed because my favorite coworker is scared of unicorns. He knows he’s my favorite, we work remotely and are very rarely in the office at the same time, and he’s not phobic of them, it’s a funny joke that grew out of organic unicorn collecting I was doing prior to meeting him.

    5. Richard Hershberger*

      The lunch discussions remind me of college bull sessions, Sci-fi nerd division. I remember them fondly. But no, not for everyone.

    6. Becca*

      If *nothing else* (and I will leave it to the more HR-minded professionals to discuss all the “else,”) this laid-back, friendly office needs to make sure it has a mechanism for curtailing discussions that are veering into inappropriate territory, have the discussions *remain stopped,* and not let whoever put a stop to the conversation be the bad guy. Like, it’s one thing if people start talking about alien sex and someone goes, “Okay guys we need a new topic” and everyone goes along with that. It’s another thing if someone asks for a new topic and people act like that’s a problem.

      To me, part of being easygoing is that you also make it easy for people to opt out. If you’re not doing that, your workplace isn’t easygoing, it’s unprofessional and (at best) clique-ish.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        My team at work has / has had several members who are extremely private and generally quiet. Like, they have mentioned that they’re private people. Which has meant that other staff members have been uncertain about what it’s OK to ask those folks about, since nobody wants to accidentally ask a question that turns out to be too personal. Our solution was to have a spoken agreement that if anyone was asked a question they didn’t want to answer, it was 100% OK to say they didn’t want to and everyone else was expected to be completely cool about it.

    7. Kevin Sours*

      This is definitely taking a “Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking” construction and following up with “and I think people are put off by the Jaywalking”.

    8. The Prettiest Curse*

      I love office mascots and would be totally fine with Robert, just not the celebrity betting pool (unless limited to scandals only – I think betting on deaths is a bit tasteless) or the lunch conversations. It’s also strange that HR got involved with dictating locations for Robert but is apparently fine with discussing alien sex organs!

      1. Amateur Linguist*

        Probably because they don’t know about the discussion (and it’s reasonable to not want interviewees or clients to have to join in).

      2. Nobby Nobbs*

        Even keeping the betting pool to scandals is all fun and games until somebody comes in heartbroken that their favorite author turned out to be a multiple rapist. Who wants to win money off of that?

        Even if you try to institute limits, where do you draw the line of good taste? Is it funny or sad when the pope says a slur?

    9. But Of Course*

      Same. I have no problem with Robert (and we have an empty office …) but I have a huge problem with “very unprofessional” lunch discussions. Not just the content but also my assumption that some people are egging the conversations on for reasons of their own. FTR, I work in a traditionally “work-hard, play-hard” industry (not a gay steel mill, though) and literally had a conversation about alcohol tolerance yesterday with coworkers I’m traveling with next week because we want to attend a famous bar where we’re going. That’s still not “let’s sexualize this conversation.”

    10. Abundant Shrimp*

      The alien lunch discussion brought up a memory. We had a coworker from hell. In multiple ways. My personal beef with him was that he gave me the third degree about my accent and, when I cut that off, he put his hands on me and called me “honey” to make sure I wasn’t offended. And that was just his first week there! Tried getting handsy one more time. Pulled out his phone and asked if I would mind if he took a photo of me when I was in the breakroom heating up my lunch; was shocked when I said no.

      Full-on harassed one of his teammates, yelled at her, threatened to come to her house and HURT HER CATS (??!?!), to the point where she was afraid to come in to work knowing he’d be there. Her boss was backing her up and wanted him gone. HR said no. “He didn’t know he couldn’t do that. We talked to him and he’ll be fine now.” Rinse, repeat.

      His boss retired and they hired a replacement. A very professional, knowledgeable woman. This man tried to HIT ON HIS BOSS. Did I mention that she was the only Black woman manager in the department? Yeahh. She left soon after. Wonder why. Anyway, on to the lunch talk story.

      This guy crashed another team’s lunch once. They let him stay and shared the food they’d gotten for the team, all good. But then they played a team-building game and things went off the rails. The team was supposed to take turns saying what animal they would like to be and why. The guy’s turn comes and he quotes an old email joke that I remember making the rounds 25 years ago. “I want to be a pig. Because a pig’s orgasm lasts 30 minutes!” as he digs back into his lunch without a care in the world.

      Multiple people called HR as soon as the lunch ended. Guess what HR said? “We talked to him. He didn’t know he wasn’t supposed to do that.”

      All told it took several years to get rid of the man, and in the end he was let go for performance. Yep, on top of making everyone else’s life hell, he wasn’t even good at his job! He didn’t want to leave, tried to break back in, security was called and we had extra security on campus for a week in case he decided to come back.

      This is the type of coworker that I thought of when I read about the lunch discussions. Now imagine that you’re new to the team, you’re all sitting at lunch together, and everyone around you is that coworker! And the next day, and the day after that! Yeah I would leave too. Robert can stay, assuming he’s behaving professionally.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Because hearing “threatened to harm animals” should not equal “well, maybe this grown adult professional didn’t know you aren’t supposed to do that, so…it’s fine.”

        2. Laser99*

          “Well, to be fair, it doesn’t state in the employee handbook to not threaten pets…” Whaaaaa???

  4. Carys, Lady of Weeds*

    Yeah…the moment you mentioned the betting sheet and the lunch conversations, you made it clear this wasn’t about Robert. Robert is harmless and silly. Sexualized conversations and betting on people dying (!!) are wildly outside of any workplace norms I’d be comfortable with. I’m not at all surprised two people have quit quickly.

    Alison is 100% on point. Your company has a serious culture problem and until that’s addressed new hires won’t stay.

    1. Doc*

      This was what leapt out to me, and I was surprised Alison didn’t address it. People can “earn” a valuable benefit (a day off! in an era when free time is at a premium!) by winning a tasteless-at-best gambling competition? Come on man, we’ve been over this before.

      1. Dido*

        Yeah, I think gambling for the day off is probably the biggest issue here. Sure, people don’t technically have to participate in betting on people’s deaths (which most people would be uncomfortable with), but then they don’t have the same opportunity to earn a work benefit. Since some religions prohibit gambling, this really seems like religious discrimination, and perhaps an intentional effort to purposely drive off employees of certain religions

        1. Dazzling You Too*

          I’d be more cool with the day being a prize for finding Robert. But yeah gambling on celebrities dying is a close second in the cringe rankings here (behind the sexualized extraterrestrial convo).

      2. anonymous worker ant*

        Yeah, that was what really stood out to me! Robert is silly but as long as it’s not interfering with people’s ability to work, it can continue being silly. The work conversations are iffy – like the aquarium person, I work in a place where sex-adjacent things are sometimes work-related, so it wouldn’t seem super off to me to discuss alien sex in the breakroom. Deadpools are kinda dark, but traditional, and fine if they’re informal and optional. But the minute you’re offering a value work benefit for participating? It’s not informal and optional, and it’s probably a larger sign of stuff that would be fine if informal and optional not really being informal and optional.

    2. Doc*

      Yeah this leapt out at me and I was surprised Alison didn’t address it. People can “earn” a valuable benefit (a day off! in an era when free time is at a premium!) by winning a tasteless-at-best gambling competition? Come on, man.

    3. KTbrd*

      My husband and his friends have a “dead pool” where they make predictions at the start of the year of which celebrities will pass, but it’s not for money (or time off! wtf!) and they keep it mostly to themselves. I would feel uncomfortable with something like that at work, and the “prize” would make me feel like I had to participate (because who doesn’t want extra pto?)

    4. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

      Yeah, Robert isn’t the issue at all. A cultural expectation of eating lunch together and discussing sex for several days in a row is the issue! Even if new hires know it’s “okay” to skip these lunches – not a given – they have to either eat at their desk or listen to it.

      Although frankly, if I started a new office and saw a death raffle on the wall, I’d turn around right there. Going to point out that last Friday I asked about how to handle a coworker who constantly talked about death & killing and absolutely nobody’s response was “laugh it off.”

      1. Clisby*

        Another option might be to leave the workplace entirely for lunch. In my 40+ years of working before retirement, I never worked at a place where I was confined to the building for lunch.

        1. metadata minion*

          Yes, but depending on the location and someone’s transportation options, that can get annoying. If I’m bringing a packed lunch to save money, I can eat in the staff room or I can eat outside. And without a car, there’s really no food options I can get to in time to eat lunch and get back within my lunch hour. I realize I’m in a particularly awkward corner geographically, but employees shouldn’t have to deal with logistical hassles to avoid sexualized conversations at work.

        2. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

          When I had to go to work during the covid lockdown, I ended up eating meals in my car because it was the only place I could go and feel I could safely unmask. There were no open restuarants or other places to eat.

          It was an uncomfortable solution to avoid becoming ill; it would be even more uncomfortable if it was the only solution to avoiding unpleasant discussions. We do not have enough evidence to know if there are other places to go, if they are affordable, etc.

        3. Observer*

          Another option might be to leave the workplace entirely for lunch.

          People should not have to leave the office for lunch. More importantly, behavior that makes reasonable people feel like they need to leave is NOT ok.

    5. Potion Seller*

      I wonder if there’s also a lot of peer pressure to play along and not be That Guy who spoils the fun for everyone. Because that mindset is obnoxious regardless of how quirky or boring the traditions in question are.

      I’ve worked in places where there were some odd/unprofessional traditions (nothing that involved death though) but people were not smug about it and if you weren’t interested they’d stop bothering you about it..

    6. Productivity Pigeon*

      For me, the worst part was actually the betting. I realize they’re not doing it with a malicious intent but something just seizes up in me at the thought of betting who will die, even if it’s ”just” a celebrity.

    7. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Yeah, those were the ones that got me. I was like, “ew, dead pools, that’s uncomfortable”, then they got to alien orgams over *two lunches* and my eyebrows shot up. I would bet the coworker who doesn’t talk to people at lunch does it for this reason.

    8. goddessoftransitory*

      Yeah. The problem is that Robert is a straw/cardboard man for the real issues; sexualized conversations and betting on death.

      LW, your boss can see the problem of retaining employees, but not the cause–that your office has kind of grown in on itself and is not able to separate “fun hanging out at lunch” from “we really should not discuss orgasms or who’s going to die soon, no matter how much we insist it’s totally fine to not participate.”

      Because when you’re in the office with this stuff, it basically becomes something you HAVE to deal with, every day, no matter where you sit at lunch or whatever, and when you’re walking into a hothouse orchid environment like this plenty of people are going to nope out.

    9. Dark Macadamia*

      Right? Ridiculous amount of focus on Robert when they are literally gambling (about real humans’ tragedies or crimes) and going into graphic detail about sex on a regular basis. I feel like LW knows exactly why people leave but focused on “we’re fun! we’re quirky!” because admitting the real problem is the other stuff means they would have to stop doing it.

    10. Coverage Associate*

      This, and if I understand correctly, the celebrity talk is also during lunch, so people are winning a day off during their time off, which is also often a sexualized time and place in that workplace. Not to mention all the reasons someone might consistently lose or not want to play the “game” re celebrities, from religious objections to that type of “game” or to the types of entertainment that makes celebrities, to having other interests.

    11. Business Throne*

      I also agree that Robert probably wasn’t the issue, but a small part of me wonders if the coworkers who left quickly knew that Robert is also an actual person who worked there at one time. I’m in the minority of people who wouldn’t really be fazed by alien sex discussions or dead pools at my workplace (people have some surprising release valves in the helping professions), but the thought that some peccadillo of mine could become A Thing that’s still going after I retire would make me nervous. That aspect of the back story could be the reason OP thinks of Robert as the “least professional” part of the culture.

      2. AnonyMoose*

        Our office’s March madness trophy is named after a former employee but it’s just a basketball in a cup that the winners sign– we still occasionally work with the former employee and I told my boss I almost mentioned it to him and he said he was pretty sure the trophy was actually named after he left, so the guy has no idea! it wasn’t based on anything he did though; if I remember correctly, when setting up the next year’s tournament the former employee was erroneously mentioned as the previous year’s winner, and the real winner had a (fake, good-natured) hissy fit about it so they decided to name the trophy after the former employee. it doesn’t feel targeted/personal the way this cardboard coworker does!

  5. Bespoke Budget Formatting*

    If the Robert hunt is part of the problem at all, I think it’s more likely the final straw than the biggest problem the ex-employees had

  6. I Need More Coffee*

    hmmmm….my office has a similar culture of eating lunch together. We are a bunch of nerdy/geeky scientists and we often have strange conversations. However, even we avoid sex and politics and while I could see us betting on the next celeb to have a scandal, we wouldn’t bet on the next death.

    as Alison says you can still have a quirky culture without discussing sex

    1. 98 degrees*

      Yeah, like I mentioned in another thread, my previous work team could have some crazy conversations to break them of the day. But the few times we veered into something kind of over the top*, people spoke up and we reeled it back in.

      *examples:
      1– there had been something in the news recently about a celebrity hiring a hitman, which then failed spectacularly. Which turned into a conversation about how this is not the first time a celebrity has been accused of doing that, and also how do these people even find hitmen to hire???
      2– the long-retired founder had recently died, and people were sharing all sorts of “zany” stories about him—AKA stories that actually showed what a jerk he could be. So that crossed a few lines and we had to rein it in (but really the blame was on the founder in the first place, for being an extremely problematic fave, like the moderating filters might flag any specific examples I give)

    2. DataGirl*

      Right? I hope the people who quit see this letter and realize they have very good grounds for a lawsuit.

      1. kanada*

        i get how someone might feel uncomfortable, but sexual harassment? doesn’t feel good to put lighthearted discussion of alien sex in the same category as propositioning someone who works under you.

          1. MN Nice*

            Maybe I’m just over prude/purity culture, but I’m really chafing at the idea that full-grown adults talking about adult things over lunch in a light hearted manner (I mean, they’re talking about aliens, not their spouses and what positions they did last night) is a “sexualized work environment”. That feels a step too far. I’ll agree that maybe they should keep that to like after work happy hour or something rather than at the office, but that just feels like therapy-speak or chronically online gone too far. I will allow that I’m old and grumpy right now though.

            1. A. Lab Rabbit*

              What the law considers to be wrong and what individuals consider to be wrong are two different things, though. The talkative coworkers don’t consider this to be an issue, but the law would, and if someone pressed, there could definitely be legal repercussions.

              This isn’t therapy-speak or chronically online, it’s just the law drawing a line (albeit a somewhat fuzzy one) that some people are okay with and some definitely aren’t. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and not everybody is going to be happy with where it is.

            2. Eldritch Office Worker*

              MA and 18+ warnings on media content aren’t just for parents, they’re also so people don’t have to be exposed to things that they are not comfortable with. There are a myriad of reasons people don’t want to discuss “adult” topics at work that have nothing to do with purity culture, and even if it was because they’re prudes they are legally entitled to not have to navigate those things in a workplace.

              It’s also very, very worth noting that for a lot of women a sexualized culture is also a violent one by nature.

              2. Turquoisecow*

                Yes, 100%. If a new hire has a history of being sexually assaulted, and then they sit down to lunch and have to listen to people discussing alien orgasms? You can definitely see how that would make such a person extremely uncomfortable and, as the new person, also extremely uncomfortable feeling like they could ask the discussion to stop.

                And then they think, well that was terrible, but surely it was a one off, and then day two it happens again? Yeah, I wouldn’t blame them for just walking off the job and chalking it up to a bad fit. That’s not an environment that will be comfortable for them, and they’re not alone.

            3. mango chiffon*

              I don’t think that saying you shouldn’t talk about sex in the workplace is the same as prude/purity culture.

            4. Tiffin*

              I think it’s less prudishness and more that leaving a buffer zone around unacceptable behaviour making the line clearer for everyone involved. It’s harder to speak out against unwanted sexual jokes or comments when perpetrators can (quite correctly) point to some kinds of sexual talk being accepted or encouraged within the company culture.

              Personally, I’d probably would be okay with a degree of that kind of talk in the right crowd. But at a company scale, I still think it’s better to draw a hard line than allow creeps wiggle room to rules-lawyer over whether their jokes are ‘going too far’ or not.

              1. Jam*

                this is it – even if for some reason you were not concerned about people’s feelings (and you should be!), this is the very practical reason to cut this out.

            5. CTT*

              Purity culture is “you’re a slut for having sec outside of a religiously-sanctioned relationship.” This is “I do not want to hear about bodily fluids and sex organs while I eat lunch.”

            6. Kevin Sours*

              People have different tolerances for “adult things”. Some people don’t really want to discuss them — even in a light hearted way. And, light hearted or not, it sounds like they were getting pretty detailed.

              And that’s fine for adults who want to joke around but the reality of the work place means that somebody who wants to exclude themselves from the conversation needs to exclude themselves from the lunch room. If that sort of thing is the common topic of conversation it means that people not comfortable with it are going to excluded from people part of the group. Part of the team. That’s not good for the environment, the office, or people’s careers. It’s not really fair to harm people’s jobs because they don’t want to participate in conversations about alien orgasms.

              Yes, it’s hard to draw a fine line because there is always that person offended by completely anodyne material. But it doesn’t mean you don’t do the best you can. From some of the replies here I think you’ll find what is described in the letter is way beyond any reasonable place to draw the line.

              1. BethRA*

                You also have to wonder whether someone who did feel uncomfortable with the “off the rails” lunch discussion would feel comfortable enough to say something in that context, or would they fear being ostracized.

                1. TipTopTap*

                  Given that LW could specifically name who doesn’t attend (and that there are real work benefits like PTO days offered) my guess is that new hires would absolutely feel pressured to attend.

                2. Turquoisecow*

                  As a new person? I very much doubt most people would feel like they could object to a topic of conversation in the office – even at lunch – never mind something like a death/scandal pool where the prize is time off.

            7. Productivity Pigeon*

              It’s not prudish to not want to discuss something many people consider to be highly personal and private at work.

              1. Laser99*

                Yes, exactly. There is such a thing as privacy, after all. I don’t want to talk about religion at work, for example. To me, it is a deeply personal subject. It has nothing to do with “being closed off” or “unfriendly” or whatever.

            8. Amateur Linguist*

              People like a modicum of control over that kind of thing when they don’t want to talk about it. I swear like a trooper on some other internet forums, but I don’t do it here because I know it makes more work for AAM herself and the discourse is a bit different.

              No one is suggesting you can’t blow off steam when you’re with people who don’t mind it, but there’s an element of audience here that overrides your particular proclivities. Your right to say what you want does not trump my right to a professional atmosphere — and I’m ok with PG-13 banter. But it took a disturbingly long time for people to drop the rope on a particular conversation about what to do with a litter of kittens that someone was trying to re-home, and the darker side of a few people came out. My boss stopped that one very quickly. Even if she hadn’t had four cats of her own it was a sick thing to talk about, and I with my new cat was embarrassed because the discussion had started by someone asking about how she was settling in and then someone else told us her cat was expecting. Then it got really dark really fast and it was not the side of people I really wanted to see or discussion that anyone wants to have at work.

              It’s the price we pay for the general team support and assistance in other aspects of work — that we stay cognisant of the limits of rowdy behaviour and things that attempt to be transgressive but just come across as tawdry. There are lots of places where you can discuss some things — just remember that other people in a shared environment are much more sensitive to something than you are and act with caution and respect.

              1. Oh That Lazlo!*

                I could do without the successful attempts to be transgressive at work too, frankly.

            9. dr worm*

              Idk man, I’m old and grumpy and don’t like purity culture and also have sexual trauma and enjoy not being surprised with in-depth stuff about genitals at work.

              1. D C F*

                Another old grump who is way more tired of sexualized work environments being shrugged off as no big deal. For my entire life I’ve been way more likely to encounter gross jokes about sex than prudery.

                1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

                  But they’re lighthearted! It was just a joke! What’s your problem?! /s

            10. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

              A big difference is that, with the exception of the truly wealthy, we basically all have to have a job in order to be fed and housed. In most other circumstances, people can avoid uncomfortable environments and do other things. Like, if you don’t want to see any kind of nudity, don’t watch Bridgerton or go to a burlesque show, and just do something else. That’s not an option in the same way when we’re talking about people getting their material needs met so they can stay alive.

            11. TipTopTap*

              I used to be very comfortable with sex and sexual topics, and then I got SA’d and now I’m not. Work is probably the absolute last place where I’d want to be reminded of what I’ve lost.

            12. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

              “The week one employee resigned, the lunch debate was whether extraterrestrials are capable of orgasms. That discussion lasted more than one lunch break because people kept proposing different possible alien anatomies”

              I am not a prude by any means, but multiple lunch breaks to discuss different configurations of genitalia, alien or otherwise, would not be something I’d want to hear about at work unless that was part of my job (in which case it actually wouldn’t bother me at all, because it’s the power dynamics and sneakiness that is difficult for me, not the content).

              Feeling trapped and made to listen to sexualized things (and more than one lunch break comprised of ‘would xyz genitals facilitate an orgasm’ sounds pretty sexualized) is really activating for me, and I imagine for others. And the fact that the LW says this happened the week an employee resigned makes me wonder if they meant they see a connection.

              1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

                Right? Like, a running joke with my partner is her saying something moderately inappropriate and me responding with, “yeah, I read that fanfic.” But that’s just the two of us and it’s not a constant thing, just a gag we do occasionally when it’s just the two of us. We’re both actually asexual and while I’ll read all kinds of things if they catch my eye, I don’t care to discuss them in a public place with a group of strangers!

            13. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

              You might grumpily reflect on the fact that you are basically making the same argument that harassers make. It was fun. It was lighthearted. What’s your problem. You’re such a prude. We’re full-grown adults.

              If you have to announce what an adult you are…

            14. KB*

              As others have said, this isn’t “purity culture.” This is a sexualized work environment, which people might be uncomfortable with for a lot of reasons. The *only* time I had to speak about a sexualized environment was, ironically, to two young women student workers. They were doing a bit of locker room talk and were easily overheard by a male coworker, who *did not* want to learn about their sex lives and had the right to a work environment where he was not forced to do so. His reasons for not wanting to hear this could be many. They don’t matter. Maybe he was uncomfortable because complaints usually go in the other direction—that is, women students are typically seen as vulnerable to predatory older men, and he didn’t want to find himself anywhere near that kind of discussion. Maybe he was a bit prudish. Maybe he hated to hear men being objectified. Maybe it was just annoying levels of giggling. Doesn’t matter. He had a right to an environment free from it.

            15. fhqwhgads*

              The second the topic is “orgasms”, regardless of what beings are involved or how lighthearted, that is absolutely a sexualized conversation.

        2. Tio*

          Sexual harassment isn’t just propositioning someone. It definitively includes repeated sexual comments or discussions – which OP outright uses as an example in their letter. People have the right to not be subject to discussions of sexual situations in the workplace, and this is over the line.

          1. I'm Just Here for the Cats!!*

            exactly, and if you are new you wouldn’t know that the others DON’T go away from aliens and onto humans

        3. Snow Globe*

          Of course, there are degrees, but when these kinds of discussions are ongoing, regular occurrences, then it would likely meet the legal definition of harassment.

        4. Dido*

          I’m sure Mormoms, Muslims, and members of other religions that prohibit gambling have a great religious discrimination case, since they aren’t afforded the same opportunity to earn PTO as coworkers who are comfortable betting on people dying.

          2. Tio*

            At this point maybe AAM can start a pool betting on how many lawsuits this company can rack up /s

        5. hernamewaskitty*

          sexual harassment isn’t just someone propositioning someone — it also includes being subjected to hearing sexual conversations. Because it’s reasonable to expect to work in a professional setting without hearing about sex.

    3. Andrew*

      Yeah, there are a few topics you do NOT bring up in professional situations (unless directly job related), and sex is one of them. This might legally constitute sexual harassment of anyone within earshot who doesn’t want to hear it, in fact.

      1. Laser99*

        I’m dating myself here, but the rule used to be do not talk about sex, politics, or religion at work. I would like to point out that half the letters to this site are complaints of sexual behavior at work. There are also quite a few concerning co-workers disagreeing on politics, trying to convert those of a different religion, and so forth. Maybe it’s time to bring back the rule.

  8. I should really pick a name*

    If you think Robert is the reason people are leaving, you’ve been at this company long enough that you’ve lost sight of typical office norms.

    Bets about who’s going to die are going to put off a lot of people.

    You need to be more specific during interviews than “the team is laid back”.

    Give examples of the kind of conversations people have. If practical, let them tour the office when this kind of thing is happening so they can see it for themselves.

    1. Tio*

      I read the bit about betting on when people are going to die and was aghast. That’s ghoulish. What about people who like those celebrities, or people who’ve recently had a death? What seems funny at one point can change very quickly. I can’t imagine having to hear about celebrity death bets the week I was crying in the bathroom over my cousin’s death, for example.

      Robertis straight up normal in comparison to your lunch topics, OP.

      1. mango chiffon*

        Also, they get a paid day off if they guess correctly!! This isn’t just some coworkers doing something morbid, this is sponsored by the company!

        1. Silver Robin*

          Yeah, the paid day off struck me too. Never heard of a company giving such a substantial reward for a silly staff bonding activity.

          Not to mention, I am somebody who does not know much of anything about celebrities, so while I guess I could just put down something random, it feels like the office diving in on a conversation I cannot really participate in, on top of being kind of morbid and mean spirited. I do not care for the rich and famous, generally, but I also do not want to spend energy functionally wishing them ill?

          1. Sneaky Squirrel*

            Some people really have a need for all the PTO they can get too. Even if I wasn’t into it, I may feel like I’m obligated to participate. There’s probably no way to decline if it’s too morbid of a topic for me and still be considered for the extra PTO.

        2. Caryn*

          So true–and if you aren’t comfortable betting on death, you will never have a chance to win that extra day!

      2. sparkle emoji*

        Also, given how frequently celeb scandals veer into workplace sexual harassment territory, I don’t feel great about that as fun lunch chat either. If someone has been on the receiving end of workplace harassment, it can still be a loaded topic even if you’re talking about a celebrity doing the harassing.

        1. RegBarclay*

          Yup, sexual harassment, sexual assault … there’s a lot of celebrity scandals that are just not fun. For every Timothee Chalamet light-hearted gaffe there’s a lot of Weinstein/Cosby/Ezra Miller. These are real people causing real harm to other real people.

      3. Productivity Pigeon*

        I’m not a superstitious or religious or spiritual person but joking about who’s about to die is just plain wrong. Don’t tempt the universe like that.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “Bets about who’s going to die are going to put off a lot of people.”

      Yeah, the alien thing is a legal nightmare but this is would be the thing that made me leave.

      OP, if you’re writing something down and it sounds bad written out, usually that means it’s bad. If you can’t explain it to another person without worrying about their reaction, that’s also how you should be thinking about it coming off to new employees, regardless of how the employees you currently have feel about it.

      And to be clear, just because the current employees tolerate or even engage with it doesn’t actually mean they’re not uncomfortable. Social pressure is a beast and people want to fit in at work for a variety of reasons that may have nothing to do with them enjoying an activity.

      1. Tio*

        “It sounds bad when I write it out” (or say it) generally means that everyone involved has been avoiding thinking about how bad it is.

        1. Labbie*

          Yeah. It’s like when people complain that “it sounds bad when you put it like that but”. There is no but. It is just removing the filters that someone used to rationalize something they know isn’t ok.

      2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        The LW did say that a few people opt out of the group lunches entirely, and dollars to donuts that that is due to the lunchtime conversations.

        Also, I’m thinking through the death-betting-pool idea and are people like “woohoo, Redford kicked it!”? Or, geez, if someone had someone who died in a disturbing/sad way like Gene Hackman or Rob Reiner?

          2. Margaret Cavendish*

            Yeah, that stood out to me as well. I mean, if I squint I can maaayyybe see the “celebrity death pool” as harmless fun on its own – it’s obviously not for everybody, but it’s not the worst thing in the world. But when the prize is anything other than bragging rights, it’s gone too far; and when it’s something that’s paid for by the company, it’s gone way too far.

          3. CityMouse*

            Yeah that gets way, way over the top. You guys have a celebrity dead pool that results in a work benefit?

            And sure, you don’t know them but some celebrity deaths can be upsetting due to circumstances or because they’re similar to a death in your family (like say your sibling was battling colon cancer and someone got a day off because Van Der Beek died of colon cancer.) It gets messed up fast.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          Plus celebrities are still real people. Non-celebrities can know them. They start betting on the death of family friends because they don’t realize I know them? I mean I guess if I won the pool I’d get a bereavement day to go to the funeral despite them not being family…

          1. For So many Years*

            I lived in a town with an athlete that was so popular that bumper stickers were commonly on cars touting him for president. It may have been heavier exposure as a home-town hero, but he was a nationally known meme at the time as well. (Almost like Joe Namath but a different sport.) I casually brought him up as an example of something during down time in the office, and my co-worker confided she had been secretly dating him for a year! She was attending a barbeque at his family home that weekend, but they kept the relationship private to keep it out of the news. It just shows that no matter how ubiquitous you think a meme is, it can be personal for someone in a way you can’t predict.

    3. AnonymooseToday*

      Yeah, Robert thing, totally fine. Alien conversation for me, borderline and I wouldn’t participate (this is like something I would talk about with a work friend or two, who I knew would be fine with it already, but not a group convo out in the open for anyone to hear). The betting on when people die, totally offensive and I would view anyone who participated differently.

      1. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

        I not even sure the Robert thing is totally fine. Because they are talking about a girlfriend for Robert. Given the alien talk, where might they go with this? Are we going to find Robert and GF in a compromising position?

        OP, your office isn’t laid back, it has wandered into some unprofessional norms. Stop and think why you are barred from hiding Robert in public facing areas or the interview room. Because people not in on the game — which would be any new person too — find it extremely off putting.

        Your boss needs to find some other way for ya’all to relax a bit on Fridays (hey let everyone go home early if you have time to Hunt The Robert). Because otherwise this problem will keep coming up.

        1. Flavor Flav's Clock*

          I had the same thought about Robert’s girlfriend. why would he need one?? there’s no mention of him bringing his gf/ wife to work and presumably the current employees don’t do that either so where is that joke going? are they weird with Robert in other ways? I’m not opposed to the idea of a robert but the execution sounds exasperating

          1. Slinky*

            I had a similar thought. It feels like a short trip to talking about Robert’s genitals and whether he has orgasms …

    4. NerdyKris*

      Yeah, I think focusing on Robert is a red herring. The real issue is the things like the death pool or the sexualized conversations at lunch.

    5. Not on board*

      Yeah, the dying thing was also too much. If you want to limit it to celebrity scandals of the “Timothee Chalamet said nobody cares about ballet and opera” type, I think that would be okay.

      2. Jackalope*

        I think too that scandals are different because they’re rooted (most of the time) in decisions made by the person caught up in the scandal. Death is less likely to be like that, and if it’s self-inflicted that adds an extra layer of awfulness to the betting. Plus many scandals are going to be about ultimately silly issues (I might recommend drawing the line at, say, SA scandals to keep it okay for all coworkers).

    6. Anonymoose*

      I find the idea of guessing scandal to be a little amusing, whereas guessing death seems less work-appropriate. My workplace tends to be pretty open to various topics at lunch including politics and religion, so we are far from prude, and we might comment happily on someone evil dying, yet hoping for a celebrity death and discussion of sexualized topics is outside scope for us. We are analytical so any discussion of politics and religion tends to be more factual and not our own opinions (I don’t know if it’s possible to discuss politics in some countries without it being divisive, whereas in Canada we have many political parties and no strong personal affiliations to any party so I’ve found that it’s easier to discuss political parties’ plans and actions). Most of us are atheist or agnostic so any rare discussion of religion is always factual and not personal. I wouldn’t normally suggest those topics, and I know it only works well because of our culture, yet I mention it because even then sexualized topics are completely avoided and viewed as inappropriate.

      1. Tenebrae*

        Also Canadian. Hard disagree that politics are not divisive here, especially these days.

    7. Anon4This*

      Agreed, Robert would be amusing. Sexual discussions at work lunches would definitely not. As an ace person, I really don’t want to hear about anything like that at the office, lunchtime or not. And the betting on celebrity deaths at work is also really weird.

    8. stacers*

      I worked where we had a Ghoul Pool (also called a Death Pool), but it worked a little differently than what the OP described. Still, you did contribute to a pot each month and won it if the celebrity (all were over 80 years old) you had drawn out of a hat died that month. If none of the celebrities ‘in play’ died in a given month, the pot rolled over until one did. We had a lot of participation but not everyone.

      Then again, I’m a journalist and newsrooms are notorious places of zero boundaries, bizarre happenings and odd people. Nothing OP describes would seem weird in a newsroom. Far, far worse — both in conversation and in action — has happened in every newsroom I’ve worked in. That doesn’t make it right, of course, and I’m sure there have been people who were offended (and people who crossed the line egregiously did suffer consequences, sometimes), but there is very much an attitude of anything goes and dark humor.

      HR’s work in a newsroom is a nightmare, I’m sure.

      1. mango chiffon*

        But I’m assuming that was not officially sanctioned and you didn’t win paid time off, right?

        1. stacers*

          No, no company perks. Just winning the pool, which at times did get to $200+. I had Strom Thurmond as my first person, but he was the second person to die in June 2003, so I won nothing.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        To be fair, you also had a vested interest in knowing which famous people had died, because that is, in fact news. (The betting pool isn’t great by any stretch of the imagination, but I think you could be betting on much, much worse things that are also newsworthy.)

          1. Amateur Linguist*

            That was a plot point on Drop the Dead Donkey in the early 1990s. One of the newsreaders — the grumpy old Walter Cronkite/David Dimbleby expy — spotted his own name on the shelf full of obituary tapes and blew up when he watched it.

            It would be really uncomfortable in real life, though. It worked for the newsroom comedy and I guess it’s happened in real life newsrooms, but for us in healthcare it would probably be a bit grim and tasteless, even in A&E.

            1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

              I think something like that happened on the Mary Tyler Moore show, too.

      3. SMP*

        I had a celebrity divorce pool with some friends where you all picked 10 celebrity couples that you thought would divorce in the next year. We only did it once because it seemed depressing. And it wasn’t death nor was it at work. This is definitely a questionable work environment.

    9. Lexi Vipond*

      The DeathList is a thing, and I wouldn’t consider it unmentionable at work – it’s not ‘I wish X would die in flames’, it’s ‘David Attenborough is 100 now, how much longer do we think he can last?’ (Lots longer, I hope!)

      1. stacers*

        This was exactly our attitude. Though I confess that I first had picked Strom Thurmond and someone else had already won the pool in June 2003 when Thurmond died — I may have made some jokes about screwing me over in death as he had in life …

      2. Phony Genius*

        One of the most popular death pools on the internet quietly shut down this year. No explanation, they just didn’t post a way to enter for 2026 and stopped providing information on who had died.

      3. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        We had a celebrity death pool at my workplace years ago, but it got really icky and pretty much ended when a few people stopped going for the 90 year old celebrities but picked people like Brittany Spears (it was the year she shaved her head & people thought that might lead to suicide).

    10. Immaterial*

      our office takes interviews to lunch with the staff. staff don’t make any hiring decisions. but it lets folks get a chance to see and ask about office culture.

  9. migrating coconuts*

    I think Robert is hilarious…something like that would make me feel like I found my people. However, I don’t consider myself a prude, but a discussion on orgasms including explicit descriptions of genitalia, over multiple lunches, would put me off. If there are many other discussions involving sex, body parts, bodily functions, or just plain gross things, etc I think I might elect to eat lunch alone. Which would make me unhappy. I’d start weighing other things, such as boss interactions, PTO, health insurance, flexible schedule, pay rate etc, which would be a reason to stay. But those aren’t always a good enough reason to stay.

    1. Michigander*

      Yes, alien orgasms and genitals are not something I want to talk to coworkers about, whether at lunch or otherwise. You could eat separate from everyone else, but then that would make it feel like you’re being isolated for not wanting to participate in odd office sex talk.

    2. Double A*

      I would have absolutely found that kind of lunch culture fun in my 20s, but I would not enjoy it now in my 40s, even though in many ways I’m more open-minded and radical now. I would bet that the office is actually a lot more homogenous culturally (or age-wise) than the LW is thinking. Honestly, the vibe your office is giving off is “immature,” and that is what is putting people off.

      That being said, if it’s truly okay that people don’t join for lunch, I just wouldn’t join for lunch.

      1. Office culture*

        “I would bet that the office is actually a lot more homogenous culturally (or age-wise) than the LW is thinking.”

        Agreed.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      Yeah, the Robert thing is funny at best and annoying at worst. The rest of it sounds like the kind of “edgy” stuff teenagers talk about to try to seem cool. Mind boggling to see it from a whole office of adults.

  10. Yup*

    A company where people have odd yet fundamentally deep and meaningful conversations (it’s not about the aliens orgasming, it’s about the connectivity that creativity brings), play fun interactive games, and genuinely connect and bond and like one another and get all their work done? SIGN. ME. UP.

    You’re right – you need to find employees who thrive under this. Never change it. The world needs more of this. It’s real and human and vulnerable and weird and meaningful. How often do we get that in life?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      You can find that in a variety of places in life. Work is not one of them.

      You cannot screen for employees who will tolerate sexual harassment. Regardless of how much you enjoy it, legally, that’s what this comes down to.

    2. Tio*

      You can have deep, meaningful conversations that aren’t about alien sex or strangers dying. Deep or creative conversations don’t have to be as wildly unprofessional as these are.

      1. Bathyphysa Conifera*

        Yes. This has vibes of “You can tell I’m artistic because I’m flaky.” Actual working artists making a living at it turn out to not be flaky.

      2. Flying Fish*

        I’m with you – these are weird things to discuss at work. Or taken to weird levels. I wouldn’t be put off by a discussion of aliens, but I’m not really into sex conversations at work. And speculating on celebrity mortality isn’t that weird, but betting on it seems very very weird.

        Love the cardboard mascot, but I’d fear this workplace would put him into compromising positions or add annatomy or somesuch, and then be surprised that people didn’t love it.

    3. MsM*

      I dunno, I feel like if you’re creative enough to speculate in-depth on how aliens might differ from us, you can find some other angle for exploring that topic if you’re not sure everyone’s 100% opted-in to an X-rated conversation. Which is not only not something you can assume at work, but not really something you can confirm is an acceptable topic for discussion without also potentially making people uncomfortable.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      However, creative people could create that connectivity without having sexualized discussions at work.

    6. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      It’s possible to have close bonds/creativity/etc. without (a) sexual harassment via alien orgasms discussions and (b) alienating people with a ghoulish death lottery. The person who said it wasn’t a professional environment was right, and I’m not uptight about professionalism.

    7. CityMouse*

      The tone on this stuff also really, really impacts it. If people are allowed to pivot without ribbing.

      But there are also types of people who like deliberately getting a rise out of others and how things are directed and framed can really impact a comfort level. Some of this can be entirely non verbal. Someone laughing along versus someone leering, for instance.

    8. Aerie*

      We definitely need more whimsy, but it doesn’t have to be sexualized. (I say as someone who works with romance novels…which definitely means sexualized conversations are a regular part of my work! But I keep the most explicit conversations just to my team, who have all actively opted in to working on these books, and not in spaces with other teams, as not everyone wants to hear what we’re doing in our weird little department)

      1. Cats make the worst bosses*

        Unrelated to the topic above but I’ve been wondering for years: when an audiobook reader gets hired to read a romance, they’re informed of how steamy it is before they agree, right? Please say that’s right.

        1. Aerie*

          I actually haven’t worked on the audio side, so I can’t say for certain! But since that info is a big part of pitching the book for publication and to sales, I’m sure it’s given to narrators as well.

        2. Amateur Linguist*

          If you’re working in that arena, yes, you get to choose. My BIL is a freelance videographer and he gets the content description up front.

    9. stacers*

      This is absolutely the culture of every newsroom I’ve ever worked in. Sadly, though, newsrooms are shrinking and disappearing at an alarming rate. While I’m still a journalist, I work from home full time, so it’s not the same.

      I have mixed feelings about it — I can see how inappropriate it is and I do feel bad for people who were/are offended, but it was a work environment I whole-heartedly enjoyed, where I thrived and where a lot of hard work, long hours and dark humor built a lot of camaraderie.

      It definitely isn’t for everyone.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I have worked with a lot of nurses (they were retired from active nursing but still kept their qualifications). I think nurses and journalists could go toe to toe to n the dark humor department.

        1. earlthesachem*

          Nurse here. Yep, dark humor is an essential part of the Nurses’ Code.

          We see people on their worst days. We see people die. We see people who have been horribly injured. A dark sense of humor is essential to keeping our sanity.

      2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        The hard work and long hours are what built the camaraderie. Dark humor is a side effect of working with deaths and injuries – it’s a coping mechanism.

    10. Anonymoose*

      “A company where people have odd yet fundamentally deep and meaningful conversations, play fun interactive games, and genuinely connect and bond and like one another and get all their work done?”

      I have this, and it really is a wonderful place to work! Yet I think it’s stronger because we have limits and boundaries that make it more inclusive. We very rarely have issues, but sometimes a topic is uncomfortable for someone and we respect that.

    11. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You can be real and human and vulnerable and weird and meaningful and ALSO respectful. If you feel so constrained by being decent to other people, you’re not actually that creative. You’re going for the same tired topics as everyone else – sex and death. Wow, so original.

      The world does not need more bro culture, thanks, I’m up to my ears in it.

    12. Immaterial*

      the thing is, I don’t really want connectivity to people at work. I want to do good work, get paid, go home and have connectivity with the folks there.
      so yeah it is a values mismatch for me too.

  11. Chrysoprase*

    Yeah, Robert’s not the main problem here. Robert can’t sexually harrass anyone, and that seems like a much bigger issue – literally veering into illegal territory!

    That said, it’s quite possible that people might be put off by the overall goofiness of the place, particularly if they feel pressured to participate in it rather than just tolerating it. Like, the make or break for me wouldn’t be the presence of Robert or the fact that other people were having fun with him – it would be whether I felt I was *expected* to perform a ton of enthusiasm about it rather than just “OK, you guys have fun!”. LW says that not everyone participates in Robert-hunts and the like, but are they nagged to do so? Do people say they’re no fun for sitting out? Would a person new to the company understand that it’s really OK not to participate? That would make a big difference for me.

    2. Too much*

      “That said, it’s quite possible that people might be put off by the overall goofiness of the place, particularly if they feel pressured to participate in it rather than just tolerating it.”

      That was my thought. Alien orgasms feel abstract enough to not be offended, but to keep this up for several days? Betting on deaths? Greet cardboard coworkers?
      Each on its own could be ok, but alltogether, that would be too much.
      As a new hire who wants to connect to other people, I would feel pressured to participate and fake enjoyment.
      And even if some of the topics were actual fun for me, I wouldn’t want to be thrown all in and discuss those things in my first week, before I might have meaningful professional interactions with said colleagues. First impressions go both ways.

  12. Tired*

    I’m surprised Alison’s answer didn’t flag the whole betting on celebrity deaths and scandals. Death is definitely something to not place a bet on.

    1. Dugong*

      And benefits like days off aren’t a gambling reward at work. Especially not for such a gross gamble.

  13. hazzle freak*

    Three topics I never talk about, or want to hear about, at work: Politics, religion, and sex.

  14. Varthema*

    The Robert running joke sounds harmless and funny and the kind of humor I enjoy. I agree with AAM that if the alien orgasm conversation was a one-off, it’s the kind of thing that happens with coworkers who know each other well, but… like, know your audience. If the new person is there, maybe skip the weird sex chatter, or change the subject. You’ll get a read on them eventually, but that’s impossible right away.

    The dead celebrity pool is the one thing that made me recoil a bit. Dude, they’re human beings with families and loved ones. Gross. That’s the kind of thing that would make me a bit upset even just knowing it existed. A scandal pool I be fine with, even participate in, because scandals are nearly always of their own making to some extent. but death? really?

    More than anything, though, I bet it wasn’t any of these things specifically. All of these things, down to and especially the CEO’s participation, make think that it’s a young office, with kind of college-y feel. There are probably a million other micro ways in which that manifests, and I bet it’s those in compilation (plus, I’m guessing in this market, not super exciting comp) that is driving the resignations. I could be totally off-track here, but it’s my sense.

    1. Dulcinea47*

      We didn’t have a betting pool, but when I worked in a public library some of the librarians would in fact try to guess who might die next. Peoples’ books/music/etc tends to have a surge in popularity when they pass away and they’d have to be ready to get a display up quickly.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      I would hate a scandal pool more than the death pool because everyone dies eventually but scandals these days seem to involve horrific crimes

      1. Not on board*

        I think as long as the scandals are of the “Chalamet said nobody cares about ballet and opera” type, I think you’re safe. Definitely avoid Weinstein type scandals.

        If they had to make up silly scandals to go along with the celebrity guess, that would be funny.

      2. bamcheeks*

        Yeah, I don’t think either is great for a workplace, but I’ve had a few friends-of-friends groups who had a celebrity death pool going the same way you’d have a fantasy football league. It didn’t get into weird speculation about how they’d die, everyone just had a list of ten names and they’d get a point if one of them died that year. “Scandal pool”, on the other hand, seems like it would pretty quickly turn into jolly japes about sexual abuse or assault.

    3. Lemons*

      A gaffe pool would be better than a scandal pool in my opinion, I would much rather talk about celebrities getting dragged for saying no one goes to the ballet than about them doing domestic violence, cheating on on their partners, or yelling slurs at cops, which I wouldn’t be surprised are the types of scandals they’re betting on. This group strikes me as the “talk about the most salacious stuff” kind.

    4. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

      Your last paragraph is spot on. It probably feels more like a college dorm than an office. Professional doesn’t mean stick in the mud, no fun. But it does tend to the blander side of fun. Very generic. And definitely no talk of s*x even if its about aliens. And girlfriends for box people. They can find their own dates on their own.

    5. PurpleShark*

      “The Robert running joke sounds harmless and funny and the kind of humor I enjoy.”
      IDK, if I were Robert and even retired, I would be pretty hurt that a cardboard cut out of me was the office joke.

      1. Silver Robin*

        I mean, maybe do not be a ghost in the office, then? Nobody is saying his work product was bad, they are poking fun at a clear pattern of him not really existing in the space to the extent that he is not around for photos or when people needed to ask him a question.

        Besides, if Robert is retired, who cares if he has become a legend via robot? Surely the job is no longer part of his life?

        1. H.P.*

          Hard disagree on this. He didn’t do anything wrong, his work was always done – he just went about it differently than others and is mocked for that even beyond retirement.

          This fits in with my general impression of the situation: It’s not only that these people are having unprofessional conversations over lunch – this is a culture where it is considered okay to be unkind (mocking former coworkers, betting on deaths for crying out loud). Working here would make me constantly worry about not making any mistakes/behave in a way considered outside the norm lest I become the next “Robert” being made fun of, and I would also worry whether I could expect any empathy/support in case of a bereavement since people here are so casually callous about this topic.

    6. The Original K.*

      I worked somewhere (big company that has only gotten bigger since I worked there, you’ve probably heard of it) that had a celebrity couple breakup pool. (I tied with a colleague but I forget who my couple was.) I think both people in the couple had to be famous, so like Ben Affleck and J.Lo, not Matt Damon and his wife. Celebrities were topics of conversation in our field though.

    7. spiriferida*

      Absolutely agree. I think it’s the atmosphere in aggregate. This sounds like a fun group of friends during lunch times, and very difficult to opt out of as a work environment. The LW says that everyone is professional, but even with that being the case, I can imagine that for someone outside of it a boisterous lunchroom conversation could get aggravating to work through, and that one off jokes could be coming up in meetings or elsewhere in ways that make these little conversations hard to opt out of.

      It may also be that people would be fine with this atmosphere around friends but aren’t around higher level folks, and feel like it results in an ‘in-group’ with management who are essentially rewarded for being more audacious.

      1. Happy Temp*

        This reminds me of other letter writers who talked about how a new hire not opting in to these norms, or how the one person who didn’t “go along with” the office culture, are seen as the problem, and Alison has pointed out how to avoid hiring so that every single person in the office thinks the exact same way/likes the same things. Diversity also means diversity of thoughts and feelings and interests, so if you’re only hiring people who fit in with your “quirky” group, you end up with a kind of closed loop of employees, if that makes sense. (This is nowhere near as important as the sexualized office environment, though, in this case!)

  15. Morning person*

    Yeah the sex talk was the one thing that stood out to me as soon as I read it. Fee lucky that these people quit and didn’t sue- then it should be made clear to everyone what appropriate fun is vs. inappropriate fun.

      2. Ally McBeal*

        Sexual harassment. You do not have to be the direct target of the harassment to report it or sue for it – if your company is condoning sexual harassment in the workplace, you can sue because that’s illegal. What kind of damages you’ll get is debatable, but in many cases the suit is meant to stop the company in its tracks and take the law seriously.

      3. Tio*

        Those sexualized conversations are GREAT grounds for sexual harassment. People are probably just quitting instead of going to the trouble to sue, because even a winning suit is expensive and takes a lot of time, but if someone was so inclined then just what OP wrote here makes a great starting point.

      4. Joan of Snark*

        Sexual harassment. Anything that creates a sexualized environment at work is sexual harassment; and employees discussing orgasms for *several days* is absolutely creating a sexualized environment.

      5. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Alison’s response noted that it creates a sexualized environment. That is grounds for a lawsuit.

  16. Veryanon*

    The Robert thing sounds like a hoot, but yes, the inappropriate conversations are very off-putting to many people. True inclusivity means making everyone feel comfortable.

  17. Rachers*

    Robert wouldn’t bother me at all, but the lunch convos would. It creates that feeling of wanting to fit in even if the topic isn’t one you’re comfortable with.

  18. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    I agree that it’s not Robert. (Or, because Robert is so visible, Robert Is A Metaphor.)

    Both of the other examples are inducing major side eye. The alien thing for exactly the “it’s still sexual harassment if it’s over lunch.” The death thing both because rooting for terrible things to happen to people is off-putting, and because the prize is a day off from work which is not something most office fun things (like an Oscar pool) are in a position to offer, so management is running a “Who dies next?” contest?

    And if those are just two examples of how lunch gets extremely unprofessional… some people will deal with that like your coworker, by never having lunch with the group. And some will quit.

    (When I worked in house, most of us ate lunch together. We had normal safe-for-work conversations because that’s what most people do talking to colleagues at work.)

    1. Yes And*

      Yes, this is the key. I certainly wouldn’t want to participate in a celebrity deathpool, but I’ve worked in enough “creative” spaces to just quietly opt out. It’s that the prize is something only management can award, making this an official employer-sponsored activity, and one that ties a tangible benefit of work to a highly suspect social activity. That’s what’s risible about this.

  20. Pay no attention...*

    Unless Robert is getting decorated as a sexualized alien, I doubt he’s the real problem. What sort of business is this though?… because if this is a, for instance, a warehouse, this sort of culture probably wouldn’t really make most people blink, but if this is a bank, your office culture is so out of step with other bank environments that you probably won’t find another candidate with banking experience that would fit your specific office.

  21. A. Lab Rabbit*

    That meme where the guy looks at the paper and then looks up with a “wait, what?” look on his face. That’s me right now.

    I’d love to visit this place. Not entirely sure I’d like to work there, though.

  22. Sara without an H*

    “Robert” wouldn’t bother me, but the alien-sex-life-and-anatomy conversations would — especially if I were trying to eat lunch while they were going on. The fact that one of the employees who resigned left while this was a topic for discussion should be a heads-up.

    LW, maybe it’s time for a team meeting to establish some norms for conversation. I’m sure you don’t want to be stuffy, and you and your team mates actually sound like a lively bunch who are fun to know. But I agree with Alison that, if your culture favors raunchy lunch hour conversation topics, it’s probably time to rein that in.

  23. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

    I have certainly experienced worse, but then I worked in the news business. (I’ll never forget the reporters who brought in a Ronald Reagan inflatable punching bag that was definitely used in some unexpected ways.)

    1. No Tribble At All*

      News rooms makes sense for this. Same with EMTs (during lunch at an on-site, two of my team members who were respectively a former EMT and a former army medic looked at me when I sat down with them and said “actually you probably don’t want to sit in on this conversation” which I appreciated).

      This office just sounds like most of them have Committed To The Bit for too long.

      1. Business Throne*

        I agree. I’m also in a “helping” profession where a lot of the day to day work is inherently upsetting and (non-public-facing) graphic jokes and gallows humor are pretty widely tolerated. But if that described LW’s workplace, how to go about gauging people’s receptiveness to this kind of stuff wouldn’t be such a mystery to their manager. They could just ask candidates, “As you might already know, this field is notorious for gallows humor. What are your feelings about it?” The fact that they’re both struggling to frame this in a way that’s forthcoming but not alarming to candidates should tell them (the manager especially) that their team dynamics are problematic, not just unusual.

    2. WS*

      Yeah, if this was healthcare I wouldn’t blink. But then you’ve been seeing people die and talking about bowel movements and genitals at work anyway.

  24. Dulcinea47*

    I think things like Robert are pretty funny… but I would be upset if I had to eat lunch around a bunch of people talking about alien sex in great detail. (I’m picturing a break room situation where one might use the communal refrigerator, etc. even if you’re not part of the conversation in question.)

  25. xylocopa*

    Yeah, I’m up for weird conversations, but if I’d been at a place for just a few weeks and those weeks included multi-day alien orgasm analysis and betting on who’s going to die, I too would feel like it wasn’t the place for me.

    Neither of those things particularly offend me, but I feel like I’ve kind of outgrown that humor. And more importantly if that’s my first impression of a workplace I’m going to be wondering what’s next. Betting on coworkers’ sex lives? If I’m uncomfortable with the next big hilarious topic, can I avoid it without being ostracized?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      This, absolutely. Hard to tell when the focus of the conversation will turn to something painful.

  26. Onyx*

    You’re clearly immersed in a very strange work environment, so it makes sense that your read of how it would look to newcomers is off, but the fact that you thought Cardboard Robert was the “least professional” thing the office does compared to 1) extended speculative sex discussions and 2) betting on people dying suggests that your view of work norms has been turned on its head. At your current workplace, this probably allows you to fit in and connect with the coworkers who are enthusiastic about these, but it has the potential to cause major problems for you when interacting with people from outside your office or if you look for a different job.

    If you’re not already a regular AAM reader, I would suggest using both this site and other resources to try to develop a better understanding of typical office norms and taboo topics, so that you will have that awareness even if you continue to participate in your office’s activities. As you will see if you read through Alison’s columns (especially some of the columns where she invites funny stories on some particular theme), a lot of offices have extremely weird *silly* traditions like Cardboard Robert that people enjoy and bond over that don’t cross the lines of serious office/general taboos like sex talk and death bets. It doesn’t have to be a free-for-all to be fun, and you’re more likely to not scare off new people (or to fit into a new job in the future) if you focus more on the safe-for-work sillyness rather than the edgy “fun.”

  27. Lemons*

    I wouldn’t stay there either, for one the sexualized environment is gross, for two, the betting about someone DYING is even grosser. The grossness trifecta is completed by the “or have a scandal” part because celebrity scandals are often either sexual or violent in nature. That’s not like, a fun thing to joke about.

    Robert isn’t your problem, the problem is whatever edgelords on your team are encouraging this culture. I would be surprised if there wasn’t a cruel gossip streak in the office as well.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Definitely agree about the scandal bit. A lot of times those scandals have victims and that’s not something that I would find humor in.

  28. Not A Manager*

    I think all of this is hilarious and I would love to work at your company. BUT… my guess is that this is a “culture fit” issue run amok. You’ve developed so many in-jokes, and such a tolerance of college-dorm style interactions, that anyone coming in who’s not absolutely attuned to this is going to feel really uncomfortable.

    The issue might be the content – sex and death are endlessly fascinating, and really NSFW – but I could see being equally put off if you were always debating the best doctor in Dr. Who, or riffing off Monty Python sketches, or arguing about Magic:The Gathering.

    It’s tempting to want to screen people to be good culture fits and to be happy to geek out on this stuff, but you risk the usual legal liability (older people, people from different cultures, etc.), and you’re going to lose people who could potentially, you know, be best their actual jobs.

    I do think the culture at your job needs to change. Maybe not in kind, even, but in intensity.

  29. H.Regalis*

    Robert sounds super fun! I don’t think that’s unprofessional at all.

    Like Alison and others have said, I think it’s stuff like the dead pool and talking about things like alien orgasms. This sounds like somewhere I would have loved in my 20s! But now that’s stuff I would talk about with interested friends and not at work. I’ve been working long enough where I’ve either been the one who’s uncomfortable with something but felt like if I said anything I’d be the No Fun Person Who Ruins Everything, and I’ve also seen people be made visibly uncomfortable by things but clearly not want to speak up for the same reason.

  30. Dust Bunny*

    Robert sounds fine, but the rest of this sounds like I already went to high school once, thanks, and I don’t care to repeat the experience.

    If you find yourself saying “it sounds worse than it is”, it’s probably that bad and you should reconsider.

  31. CityMouse*

    I’m skeptical any of this is truly why people are quitting. Does this stuff potentially interfere with work time or disrupt concentration? If someone doesn’t want to participate are they ribbed or excluded?

    I just wonder how someone outside of the dynamic would describe it. Is there an aspect where this is cliqueish?

    1. HonorBox*

      I’d bet that it is cliquish, in that you have a core group of people who are well-established and have worked together for a long time. They’ve lost the “coworker” filter. Even if someone new was invited and openly included, the topics of conversation have strayed so far into inappropriate territory for a workplace that the clique then excludes people who don’t like that kind of talk, especially in the workplace.

      1. CityMouse*

        You articulated it way better than I did. It’s not so much the individual things described as much as the picture of the overall workplace it starts to portray and the things that typically accompany this kind of workplace dynamic.

      2. Electric Bagpipe Machine*

        Very much this. Given that the CEO participates in the Robert hunt and gives days off for the celebrity death pool, it seems extremely unlikely that people feel safe to push back on things they’re uncomfortable with. And let’s not kid ourselves, just because the inappropriate conversations are confined to lunch hour, the vibe is not, because everyone knows that the entire management structure is on board with the inappropriate stuff and will not have their backs.

        OP, your workplace is very much the opposite of “inclusive.” The fact that this behaviour is sanctioned by upper management means that they are actively filtering out diverse viewpoints – you’re either on board with this stuff, or you need to hide in your cubicle all day. The impact of the lunchtime conversations doesn’t stop at the lunchroom door even if the conversations do. When people don’t feel they can trust management to be reasonable about even the most basic, obvious, broadly-understood concepts of a respectful workplace (like “don’t talk about sex”), of course they won’t feel they can trust management to be reasonable about pushback on anything day-to-day (like “this process is weird and confusing” or “I don’t think that solution addresses the underlying problem” or “I’ll book the earlier, more expensive flight so that I arrive early enough to safely drive home” or whatever else).

      3. spiriferida*

        Yeah, this is a good point. It’s possible that trying to look for people who will just be able to leap into this environment instead of growing into it with the people already there will actually result in filtering for people with inappropriate behaviors and a lack of boundaries.

    2. xylocopa*

      I think one element is that even if everyone already working there feels like it’s not cliquish, and it’s fine to skip alien sex lunch…someone who is new doesn’t know that. When it’s your first impression, you’re going to be feeling like this is what you have to do.

  32. Burn It All Down*

    We have a life-size, cardboard Pete. He is the model employee, quite literally. We have discussed getting an actual mannequin Pete, but no one wants to explain that expense to the Corporate office. Pete does not get hidden, however, and he lives in our training room (and makes the occasional appearance in training videos). All this is to say, I don’t think Robert is your problem. The lunch conversations may be the problem. The problem may also be that you are a very insular group- are your traditions welcoming to new employees?

    1. The Original K.*

      I’ve mentioned here that an ex of mine had (he may still have him, I don’t know) a colleague that looked so much like Burt Reynolds that when I saw a picture of him I asked if Burt Reynolds was a client. The guy and the team leaned into it so whenever the guy was out, they put a life-sized cutout of Burt Reynolds in his office. There’s a picture of him posing with it.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My organization’s “face of mandatory training requirements” is literally a cardboard box with a smiley face on it. He’s a whole character and shows up in our in-house communications.

  33. Nasty hobbits*

    It’s not Robert. It’s the lunch talk. I worked in a fun, playful environment. Loved almost everything. There was a large group that would have just awful lunch topics. NSFW, gross, nasty stuff.
    I avoided that lunchroom whenever they were there. Thankfully, there were other places to eat.
    If I was new and forced into that?
    Nope.

  34. Ama*

    I agree with others that Robert is not the main problem – if he was the only weird thing happening I bet there wouldn’t be a problem retaining new staff. It’s definitely the lunch discussions and death pool.

    Another aspect of this is if the lunchroom is so small that someone who doesn’t want to be part of some of the wilder topics still has to sit there and listen OR if the conversation is audible outside the lunchroom. That would mean even someone who isn’t participating in the conversation is having to listen anyway so it’s not nearly as “optional” as OP thinks.

    1. HonorBox*

      Related to your second paragraph, I mentioned below that the lunch conversations may be permeating the workplace throughout the rest of the day, too. Having to hear them discussed over the lunch hour is bad enough. But if people are still chatting throughout the rest of the workday, it would be exhausting.

  35. Madame Desmortes*

    I started typing, and then deleted, a whole discursive excursion into cybersecurity workplace cultures. The piece of it that’s relevant to OP’s question is that several forms of cybersecurity workplace culture are exclusionary, intentionally or un-. Even leaving aside the situations in which that’s questionably legal at best (and oh, they do exist), the more adrenaline-floody or in-jokey cybersec workplaces can exclude quieter, patient, methodical people that much cybersec work actually really needs.

    So I think what you and your colleagues need to ask one another, OP, is whom your workplace culture is excluding, why the excluded people are valuable, and how you can dial it back to keep those people without losing everything you enjoy about your workplace. If you need more incentive, consider some of the wilder stories in AAM’s archives, such as the new young manager who tried to kick out older coworkers because they didn’t participate in over-the-top office shenanigans. You don’t want to go there, or anywhere near there! And I do think you’re some way down that road.

    There won’t be a perfect solution, I don’t think. You and your colleagues will feel some loss as you adjust. With all my heart I believe it will be worth it in the long run, though!

  36. MsM*

    I will say, if LW and the higher ups are absolutely not interested in changing the culture in any way, we may finally have found the one place where “what kind of tree are you?” interview questions actually make sense.

  37. morethantired*

    I have worked at a place like this and, jeez, at the time did I think it was fun. But I look back and realize we were being incredibly unprofessional and probably made more than one person very uncomfortable in a way that people shouldn’t have to be at work.

    OP, you all have just gotten way too comfortable with each other. You all became genuinely friends and forgot yourselves. It happens but now is the time to reset.
    Because you’re being asked to help with the job description, maybe bring it up to say “I really love our discussions and games but this situation has made me realize maybe we ought to tone things down a little. Like just keeping lunchtime discussions PG and maybe taking the celebrity death pool to a private chat. I have started to see how some of these things could make people really uncomfortable and could open us up to legal issues. I know we all like to have fun but I know I think I’ve let myself get a little too casual in the conversations, and it probably goes for everyone else, too.”

    1. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      Someone upthread noted the density of the in-jokes becoming off-putting. Every time the office adds a new in-group marker to the already high total, it becomes harder to find the prospective hire who will think “My people–I align to all 87 in-jokes!.”

      1. morethantired*

        What’s odd is it seems like people make the in-jokes without regard to the fact that there’s a new person present. And that’s rude. Like my best friend and I have in-jokes but we don’t often make them if we’re hanging out and we’re with our spouses or other people. Because then you have to be polite and explain it, it’s almost always not as funny to the other people, and then it’s not like they’re going to enjoy the references even with the explanation.

    2. Theaz*

      Yeah I think this is a huge part of it – it might be that everyone is having a good time currently. It also has become the case that having a good time with this is a prerequisite for thriving in this workplace, when it actually has nothing to do with the work or the skill needed to do what the workplace is for. It’s hard sometimes to see why it would be a problem that everyone is really close and similar and boundaries are blurred and we’re having so much fun! But part of the problem is that that’s not actually what the workplace is for, and it changes what’s required to thrive there from concrete professional requirements to vibes, which are invariably based on certain kinds of similarities and norms that often exclude people on the basis of predictable and problematic lines.

  38. LordSalamanella*

    I used to work in a company like this one, way back in the days.
    We thought we weren’t toxic or unprofessional, but trust me, no workplace comfortable in talking about orgasms (unless it’s in a medical field or adult entertainment industry) or death with an ongoing bet pool is a balanced, professional workplace.
    You realise how many bad habits it gave you once you leave (usually because you outgrow your own role).

  39. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    There are a few things here:
    1. The Robert thing doesn’t seem like a huge deal, but taken collectively, this just sounds like A. Lot. Of. Screwing. Around. That might be super fun, but it’s not for everyone – I’d be clear in interviews about what the typical day looks like including how weighted it is toward “fun” things. Some people do better in a more social environment and it absolutely can have real positive impacts on the work and team dynamics. You’re looking for those people, but it’s not a universal thing.
    2. The lunch conversations…oof.
    3. Dressing up a cardboard Robert seems like great fun. The fact that the joke was built on the back of a former employee makes it less funny and a little bit mean, especially if people Robert reported to are in on the joke. Why wasn’t Robert’s absence addressed and, you know, managed by management? I wonder how many other instances there are where the CEO or other managers are prioritizing fun at the expense of good management. (You can be a fun colleague and also a good manager within reason, but making fun of people or problems you have the power to change is not the way. Not everyone is going to feel great about a CEO who has participated in running jokes about staff performance problems. Maybe consider renaming Robert and divorcing him from that history.)
    4. I always ask this in an interview: “What job have you most enjoyed the work environment in, and why did it work so well for you?” And, “What’s the work environment you’ve felt least aligned with, and why didn’t it work for you?” This reveals a lotttt about how candidates think about culture. (Of course you still need to tell them, in detail, what your culture is like as well.)

    But seriously, rein in the alien-orgasm talk and predicting celebrity deaths stuff. You can be creative, fun and silly within the bounds of acceptable work behavior.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      The amount of goofing around also stood out to me. I like a little fun, but it seems like a lot. And there are benefits coming to the people who participate in stuff, like days off. In contrast, I had a teammate a while back who hated all that stuff. She figured she was paid to get stuff done and she wanted to come in, do her work, then leave. I figure she would see the extra time spent on silliness to be just extra time she had to be at work where she wasn’t dealing with her to-do list. As well, her disinterest in participating in frivolities would mean she’s not eligible for the days off in the death pool.

      And good point about the Robert situation showing that either management was potentially negligent in not addressing him just disappearing (depends on whether other people’s tasks depended on them being able to find him in a timely way) and/or staff not raising the issue with management because they didn’t trust management to deal with the problem effectively.

    2. Good points*

      A lot of good points!

      I think OP fitting in was pure luck, and no strategic screening. If somebody told me a team was “laid back”, I would think of a relaxed atmosphere or a lot of watercooler talk, but not of what OP was describing. If everybody thinks Robert is the main problem, and if they think they are “laid back”, their self assessment is completely off and they will continue to run into problems.
      Maybe have applicants meet a larger group in the office and see if they connect immediately?

    3. Seraphina*

      #1 is a great point. I love a goofy environment, but I’ve had colleagues who really aren’t into it at all, and that is valid. Their need to focus on their work is more important than my desire to belly-laugh for three hours.

  40. Not That Kind of Doctor*

    When I started my current job, the office atmosphere was best described as Frat House. I hated it. We had someone who would randomly sit on a coworker’s lap, pass gas and laugh as they walked away saying “there’s a kiss for ya!”. Another who thought it was hysterical to hide in the industrial sized shredder box and pop out to scare random people walking by. Even the most benign work conversations could take a sexualized turn if just the right word triggered it. Like OP, with clients everyone was fine, but amongst coworkers, behavior was routinely out of bounds. Fortunately the biggest instigator left after a couple of years and our office recovered nicely.

  41. HonorBox*

    I want to go on a Robert hunt! That sounds like fun, and I would guess that Robert has nothing to do with why people have left. I’m curious how long others have been with the company, because it feels like the topics you highlighted for lunch talk have veered firmly into the territory of conversations you’d have while not at work with friends. I also wonder how those lunch conversations have made it beyond the lunch table, too. There’s nothing wrong with a conversation about the NCAA tournaments, and if you want to put up brackets for some friendly competition, that’s great. If two people are chatting later about whether Northern Iowa can beat St. John’s, no worries. But prolonged conversations about alien sex and betting on celebrity deaths is clearly not that.

    I’d be looking more closely at the culture that’s been established by long-term employees, because it seems like they’re far more comfortable than they should be talking about topics that are not work-friendly, and that’s exceptionally difficult for the new person/people. You had two people who highlighted discomfort with professionalism, and I’m guessing it has everything to do with what they’d heard either at the lunch table or throughout the office based on the lunch discussions.

  42. Ash*

    I think y’all sound fun. Also, I work in a law office and nothing offends me anymore and I’m neurodivergent. Pretty sure the neurodivergent and geeky are who you are looking for.

    1. Kindly Egg*

      idk, I’m also neurodivergent and geeky, and i think this sounds horrible. the longer i spend in the working world, the more i appreciate a clear boundary/expectations around what’s appropriate.

      1. Varthema*

        Yeah ND and geeky and very much with you. I like offbeat, really don’t like being uncomfortable.

        1. Magnolia Cordelia*

          I’m also ND, though not as much geeky, and I feel the same as you and Kindly Egg.

    2. Yup*

      This. I don’t know how to fit in working in an office where the conversations are always professional and straight. .It makes me feel uncomfortable and like I don’t know what to say. I don’t mean office talk should be inappropriate or that someone’s complaint about a lunch topic shouldn’t be taken seriously, but this kind of vibe would finally make me feel like a normal employee in an office and not some alien who doesn’t get the pace of office talk and perpetually feels left out and odd. if it’s weird and creative, and everyone’s part of it, and there’s space for pushback as needed, please please please bring it on.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        There is a lot of room between always “professional and straight” and alien sex, though. I would say my workplace has plenty of good-humored, not-really-work-related side-talk, but we can do it without mentioning orgasms.

        1. Amateur Linguist*

          Same here. ND and enjoy banter. I’ve been around a men’s cricket team and not been offended. But I wouldn’t want that kind of talk at work — it’s all about audience and code-switching for me. As ND I’ve also made jokes that landed really badly and tested boundaries unintentionally, but always pulled back when I sense them rather than bulldoze my way through.

          (Although I do find as someone living in the south of England that northerners assume things that actually aren’t true. I’ve had good-natured banter with northerners who don’t realise other northerners move down south and assimilate, but then I tell them that my dad is from Bolton — near Manchester — and my mum is from Northern Ireland and I was born in Carlisle, last stop before Scotland, and then they go a bit quiet. And no, this isn’t a euphemism for something else — it’s a genuine and still fairly contentious issue that we forget about down south but still very much occupies Northern minds. Again, privilege issues dictate that I don’t clap back too hard unless it’s to reveal that I was born just about as far north-west as you can get, but then I remember my mother bonding with someone at church in London who made Irish jokes in her presence with English jokes in response and realise that turning the tables can be effective, at least between relative equals.)

      2. Kimmy Schmidt*

        It sure doesn’t sound like everyone’s part of it though, nor do I see any evidence of pushback.

      3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        But you/we all should feel a little restrained at the office. That’s kind of the point. You and I both keep our sharper edges padded so we don’t accidentally hurt other people when we’re all supposed to be doing a job. Take off the pads when you get home.

        You’re not at work to have fun and you’re not working with your friends.

    4. The OG Sleepless*

      I don’t know. I missed the first time around that the original Robert was someone who didn’t play along. I went to vet school with a clique of loud jokesters who semi-openly made fun of the nerdy people, and I wouldn’t like working with people who put this much energy into silly off-color jokes and made fun of the non-cool kid.

  43. Ex-Prof*

    Yeah, I’d definitely be skipping lunch in that workplace.

    And Alison didn’t mention the celebrity death list, so I’ll just point out that celebrities, annoying as they may be, are people.

  44. TallTeapot*

    Actually, the one piece that rubbed me the wrong way is that the coworkers who opt to particpate int he betting pool fo who is going to die next can get a PAID!!! day off! That is not OK.

  45. mango chiffon*

    Wait so not only does the betting pool during lunch involve betting on someone’s death, you can win an extra vacation day? So in order to get extra time off work (a significant workplace benefit), you have to participate in this? This is literally work sponsored and not something that people are doing for fun? No wonder someone left saying this workplace didn’t have a professional environment. The cardboard Robert is not the issue here

  46. I'm going to nope out*

    I suggest you add a line like this to all your job postings and phone screens:
    Our company culture is to regularly break the law by subjecting employees to sexual discussions without their consent and creating pressure for them not to object. The company also rewards employees who root for the death of other human beings.

    Or the company could make changes so these things are no longer tolerated.

  47. AnonSpeaks*

    This sounds childish, exhausting, and the absolute opposite of “laid-back.” A cardboard cutout co-worker sitting at a desk could be amusing, but all the nonsense around it? I’m tired just reading it! Silly conversations about celebs and even sex (as long as it’s not personal, because ew) are easy enough to ignore once or twice but often, while everyone is all together at lunch? Ugh. I’m trying to think of the phrases you could use that would let me know NOT to apply for this job. Maybe:

    High-energy
    Work hard, play hard
    Fun-loving/close-knit team
    Like a family
    Fit with the company culture

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I’m also pushing against the concept of this offer being laid back. You are all putting A LOT of mental and physical effort into this culture. I’d say your culture is aggressively anti-professional.

  48. Diane Chambers*

    I feel like this is drifting into beer-run/”I unmanaged my employee” territory. The priority shouldn’t be to find a person who’s OK with the work environment. You want a person who’s good at the job, and you shouldn’t be passing on good people because they don’t think alien sex conversations are funny.

    1. CityMouse*

      I also thought of the beer run letter. There’s an aspect to where these things start permeating all of work.

  49. Dasein9 (he/him)*

    The cardboard coworker is a straw man.

    Taking bets on who’s going to die next is pretty gross. I would question the judgement of people who think that’s fun.

  50. MissAgatha*

    This team sounds awesome and I want to be on it! I was on a team at an old job that was somewhat similar, it made a stressful job where I didn’t particularly love the work bearable. We had our own version of Robert, a green balloon named Winston. He was leftover from a team building exercise “minute to win it” type game, where we had to blow paper cups off a table using the air from a balloon. He made it back to our desks, acquired a face, and was our official mascot until the day he was accidentally popped. People were legit sad and we had a memorial to him at somebody’s desk. This was in 2017 – none of us work together anymore, but to this day we still text each other when we encounter somebody named Winston in the wild.

  51. Resume Please*

    The Robert thing is cute. The rest…

    1) You get a DAY OFF for guessing a celebrity death correctly? As in, “Ha, Fergus, you correctly guessed the death of a beloved ‘90s WB star! Day off for you!” It’s appalling. Perhaps it’s less callous than that (and I felt gross writing that)…but is it ever really? These are people. “Teehee he/she is a strung out musician/former child actor/etc” is still incredibly gross.

    2) Other inappropriate talk at lunch. Inappropriateness doesn’t have an on-off switch, it’s not like people are generally “professional…professional…LUNCH TIME ALIEN ORGASMS LUNCH OVER…professional…professional” There’s a bleed through

    3) People can be open to talking about any of this stuff in their personal lives, but still feel incredibly uncomfortable talking about it at work. What they say can be used against them if there’s ever any unrelated HR infraction, it can be deemed sexual harassment, it can be noted by a higher up as a personality trait that prevents them from future job growth. It doesn’t matter if a boss is in on it – the subordinates may not have leeway to speak as freely, and there may be pressure for them to “join in.”

    4) New people want to try to be friendly and social. I’ll guess the coworkers who say “no thanks” to the ‘quirky’ festivities have been there a while?

  52. Lord Doctor Fergus*

    I agree with the advice and most of the commentators that Robert isn’t the main problem here, and that the bawdy/dark humour lunch conversations are a much bigger deal – but can we go back to the coworker who quit because the company’s mission didn’t align with her values? Does the line of work itself touch on things that are controversial?

    Some of these things might also hit differently if it’s, for example, a niche part of the medical field or a company which sells some sort of adult product or other. It might make certain parts of these lunch conversations more or less understandable in context.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I think the departing employee said they didn’t align with the company’s *values*, not the *mission*. So whatever the mission is (making teapots) was less controversial than the team values (complete lack of professionalism at all times).

  53. alabastergreen*

    But also that death pool you get A DAY OFF OF WORK. That means it is a work sponsored activity and not just a group of people doing something like that.

    Cardboard cutout seems fun and silly, the rest seems gross and a serious problem (and could face a lawsuit even!)

  54. CR Month*

    A lighthearted workplace like this sounds fun to me but clearly not for everyone

    I don’t know how you screen for that in an interview unless you have lunch in the office with the candidates

  55. No Tribble At All*

    Robert? Hilarious, you do you, goofballs.

    Multiple prolonged conversations about alien sex? Betting on who’s going to die next and who’s going to have a scandal? So far over the norms of professionalism that I’d be afraid of what you’d talk about next.

  56. Anony-moose*

    I am highly skeptical that the off-putting topics are confined to lunchtime, especially if your co-workers are making jokes about which female-genital-innuendo would make a good girlfriend for your cardboard coworker. This sounds cliquey and uncomfortable. Imagine how people who recently had a loved one die, or experienced sexual assault, would feel coming into this environment.

  57. WorkerDrone*

    So wait, refusing to bet on when a person is going to die means you miss out on the opportunity to win a paid day off?

    Yeah, the cardboard cutout is not your problem here.

    1. Resume Please*

      Yeah, that’s really bad.

      LW – If there are employees who solely pick actors in their 80s and 90s, then you know those people would rather not participate but want to fit in and need an extra vacation day.

    2. Silicon Valley Girl*

      Yeah that seems like the biggest red flag to me! It’s a random PTO reward, when PTO should be part of employee compensation. Not cool.

  58. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    I worked at a weirdo place like this for 5 years and totally fit in because I, too, was a weirdo. The Robert thing reminds me of an item that was proudly displayed in the GMs office for years – an artificial butt that was used for people learning to give injections (we were a reverse logistics facility for pharmacies and medical clinics and would sometimes get back very weird items). He even kept it there during client meetings! Everyone who worked there had some form of oddness to their personality and usually had a varied and sometimes unrelated job history – I often referred to our office as the Island of Misfit Toys.

    In my case, I had come from one of the stuffiest employers ever, and even mentioned in my interview that one of the reasons I was looking for a new job was because the old workplace absolutely discouraged individual expression and diversity of interests/personality. While I do agree that sexual talk and possibly the death pool would be turnoffs for most people, being upfront that your culture is unconventional and socially creative would probably at least give the candidates and opportunity to probe further or ask for examples to determine fit.

  59. 98 degrees*

    The alien sex discussion is a bit much but I’ve worked on teams that frequently engaged in other digressions and I enjoyed it. That was 3 jobs ago and I still keep in touch with most of that team, including my boss. I think what helped is that we could engage in these discussions but still also get hard work done since they were happening over text threads. And our work was writing and editing so the majority of the time we were all working independently on our own. And that can get isolating, even for the most devoted introvert (or misanthrope).

    I guess you should specifically mention some of the activities in the job description or definitely the interview?

  60. CTT*

    Did anyone else think before reading further that “Robert” was a cardboard cutout of Robert Redford because he was the last celebrity on their death list to die? I was really curious about the cardboard cutout budget!

    1. Miss Chanadaler Bong*

      That actually would make it so much more enjoyable to have random office pictures with Robert Redford in them or him at a desk

  61. Tobias Funke*

    This does not sound laid back at all. Silly and laid back are not the same. This sounds really intense.

    Maybe this is my age speaking, but it really feels reminiscent of being in high school in the late 90s/early 2000s and trying to one up each other on who could be the “edgiest” (many of whom currently wear red hats) or the “randomest” (talking about liking cheese and such). ONE wacky thing is quirky and endearing. This many wacky things…it’s going to keep costing you potentially good people.

    1. AnonSpeaks*

      Yeah I got high school vibes too, specifically those kids who didn’t want to leave because HS would forever be the best memory of their life. This job needs a way to attract applicants who once were kids that didn’t want to grow up, while deterring applicants who once were kids who couldn’t wait to be adults.

    2. HonorBox*

      As someone who I think is similar age as you, my brain went right to backwards red baseball caps a la Fred Durst from Limp Bizkit.

      1. Magnolia Cordelia*

        I’m also the same age (ok, slightly older as I graduated high school in 1996), and I thought they were talking about the Red Hat Clubs for senior citizens, and thought, “We’re not THAT old!”

  62. raaaleigh*

    Robert thing aside (lol), I worked in a place kind of like this…but I was a newer hire and not part of the clique, and it was super uncomfortable when the topics drifted into “very unprofessional” territory. It was a small space, and basically impossible to avoid overhearing people’s conversations from my desk. I tried to be cool about it, but I kind of hated working there!
    And I’ve also worked places where I know I was part of the problem, because for me it’s all about WHO you’re having these inappropriate convos with… being on the other side definitely helped me draw better lines at work for myself.

  63. Petrichor*

    …LW, are you hiring? Because all of this sounds like so much fun. Especially because it sounds opt-in (I wouldn’t do the celebrity death thing, but I would debate alien reproduction at lunch).

  64. Joseph*

    This sounds like a great place to work.

    I worked somewhere with a fake employee called Ted who got the blame for everything, it also had a silly hat day where we all – shockingly – wore silly hats, we had a cowboy hat we’d pass around when we were doing unauthodox work arounds in code and the other one I can think of was that we had a little trophy which was passed around to someone who could do something silly whilst also being professional – I won it one day using “V for Vendetta” when spelling with the phoentic alphabet.

    100% everyone there would’ve looked for Robert

  65. Apple White*

    To echo the rest of the comments: Robert is the least of your concerns. I’m the biggest curmudgeon in town, and I’d laugh at a cardboard cut out (or a traffic cone with a little baby safety vest, as someone listed above).

    But a betting sheet for which celebrity will be the next to pass away or get involved in a scandal??? Where the winner gets PTO?? This is awful, cruel, and heartless. “Someone got caught doing something morally unforgivable to a child; enjoy your day off!” I’d flounce out of there too.

    Not to mention it could get politically messy; There’s no way someone isn’t submitting political/controversial figures, and what happens then *The* headline finally drops? This must be making someone uncomfortable, even if no one is brave enough to say it.

  66. MtDoom*

    I have strongly held beliefs about gambling/betting. If I worked someplace where a game of chance was the way to get a day off, I’d be very upset. I wouldn’t say anything because I’ve been mocked and called old fashioned about this. However I would quit over it.

    1. Seraphina*

      Good point – I also strongly dislike gambling (it literally ruined several family members’ lives) and this scenario is not an equitable way to reward people with PTO.

  68. LizW*

    I work in a condom factory. We do not discuss those types of things. Major no-no.

    We will discuss particularly odd ball complaints or the gentlemen who think they would be great “models” for our products but usually go only so far as “what were they thinking?”

  69. M*

    This letter is wild, and I really hope OP takes the time to read through these comments. OP, when it comes down to it, you’re basically asking how to weed people out that will 1) Be willing to either participate in or overlook sexual harassment; and 2) Be willing to either place bets on when human beings will die or forego their chance for an extra paid day off. This will eliminate a lot of highly qualified candidates. This is a workplace with adults, not a college dorm. If you want to discuss alien orgasms or bet on people dying (?!) outside of work, that’s your call. But this workplace needs to do some collective growing up, or there will inevitably be a lawsuit.

  70. Jenga*

    I can’t help but wonder what the industry is. I worked in what would be considered a creative field and this sounds like a pretty typical day in the office. But we were always pretty sure the lunch conversations at the insurance agency a floor below us were quite different.

  72. Browncoat*

    The lunch time conversation would be a fun discussion to have with my friends, and maybe with one coworker that I’m especially close to, but not a lunch room wide conversation with several different people. I personally wouldn’t quit my job over it, just not be thrilled to be part of the discussion.

  73. Amateur Linguist*

    Yeah, I don’t mind social offices and we all look out for each other. I’ve been to an amusement park with a manager colleague (not the one I report to but the one who manages my old building and therefore one I come into contact most often with casually). I’ve talked numbers stations and air crashes with my colleague in compliance and he’s shared that he used to get drunk alone at night with his cat after his divorce and order things from random magazine’s in the cat’s name just to get some post that wasn’t bills. He now has an American partner who uses spicy language about DJT which wouldn’t necessarily be SFW but we let him off because we agree with her and it doesn’t violate our own political neutrality in the UK.

    But that sounds too strange an atmosphere, even with my own love of hijinks and knowing that my work bestie has seen me drenched coming off a log flume. The male colleague above has been fingerwagged by my boss a couple of times when the conversation got too dark — and that’s what a good manager should be doing. My boss said she’d never heard me swear and I said that, truthfully, I swear a lot outside work but didn’t want to go too far as I have trouble masking and can get carried away.

    Work can be fun, I have the sense of humour of a hyena and we all know roughly where the borders are. It never goes into territory that we can’t come back from. But if it was costing us new team members, that’s when it goes too far. There are other letters in the archives where someone is misjudging the definition of cultural fit or snarky atmosphere, including one where HR took notice and rectified the situation unilaterally, and so I think the really important thing is to clean up your act before someone else notices and does it for you.

  74. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    While the letter is landing as “We do quirky things A (the sex thing), B (the death thing), and C (cardboard dude)–I think C is putting people off” those seem to be examples from a much longer list.

  75. Somehow I Manage*

    “Didn’t think our workplace had a professional environment.” See: betting on celebrity deaths and scandals.

    “Her values didn’t align with the company.” See: multi-day discussions of alien sex.

    A workplace can be fun and quirky. See: Robert.

    But if the company is officially sanctioning wagering on the death and demise of anyone – and they ARE because you’re getting PTO – you’re likely to find that more people than not are going to find that unprofessional, or disrespectful, or downright cruel.

    OP, if you’re really interested in finding people who are good for the business, and don’t just fit in with the clique that has been established, you need to start from the inside. You can’t design a job post that effectively vets candidates to ensure they’ll put up with the poor behavior. You need to adjust the workplace so the norms aren’t going to turn people off. You can still have fun and enjoy your workplace and your colleagues. But you’re going to continue to lose people because you’re looking for someone who is good at the job and puts up with the behavior and discussions.

  76. Sneaky Squirrel*

    The Robert cardboard cut out sounds like an overall harmless inside joke. I have had friends who have tried to explain their inside jokes to me so that I could play along too but sometimes you had to be there to really get it. Maybe it’s just one of those things that has outlived it’s amusement for people who aren’t in the know.

    This seems like an office environment that I would probably enjoy working in, but I suspect that’s because I’d fit the appearance and personality traits as a large number of the in-group members.

    And I wonder if that’s where the problems lie. It sounds like the type of group where it’s easier to feel included if you have the right “personality”, which can be read as whether you meet similar diversity dynamics of the in-group.

    It’s not easy for someone who doesn’t fit into the mold to speak up and push back on conversations about extraterrestrial orgasms or celebrity scandals when they feel like they’re part of the out-group. And if they’re feeling like that multiple times in a day and witnessing their bosses participate, then I could imagine it’s easy to feel like the only option is to get out.

  77. Ginger Cat Lady*

    We bet on people dying, we have raunchy unprofessional discussions, but Robert? He’s definitely the issue we need to make sure people are okay with!
    OP, you are so very much missing the point.
    Curb the unprofessional raunchy talk. Stop betting on who will die.
    There’s a big difference between weird fun and stuff that is completely inappropriate. Robert can stay, but the other stuff has got to go ASAP. “It sounds worse written down” because it IS terrible.

    1. allathian*

      Robert was created to mock a real person who preferred to avoid office socializing and didn’t participate in the “fun” stuff, but he got his work done. Office mascots are fine as long as they aren’t used to mock anyone.

      As a new employee I’d worry about being the next person to be mocked if I didn’t participate in the lunches, even if the talk made me uncomfortable.

  78. Kristin*

    Being that I’m a sci-fi/horror writer outside of work, I wouldn’t call that lunchtime topic “unprofessional.” It’s at lunch, and no one is objecting.
    If I were not happy at my job, I would be applying. Seriously.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      The thing is, though, you had two people who left after only a short time and they highlighted unprofessional or misalignment with values. So while they didn’t call out the lunch topics specifically, it is something that at least needs to be considered when considering their feedback.

      That no one objects in the moment also doesn’t make it OK. If someone doesn’t feel like they’re able to object, you don’t just gloss over the fact that they may be concerned.

    2. dr worm*

      No one’s objecting? People are *quitting*.

      I love sci fi, horror, dark humour etc. as much as the next weird dork who was goth in high school. But I’m not so excited about my own weirdo status that I think this is great stuff for the office. We can be proud of our wacky!zany!creative! selves somewhere else.

      1. Amateur Linguist*

        Yup. Given the effort it takes to find a job these days, someone quitting over environmental issues should be a big wake-up call. It’s ‘I would rather go without a salary at all than listen to this’ and it is definitely a complaint.

        1. mpe1*

          Disclaimer: I have *mercifully* never experienced a loved one being abducted, tortured, and murdered. But if I had, I know exactly what I’d want to do with the oh-so-amusing Disappearing Robert and his oh-so-amused colleagues.

          People really do suffer and die. Paid employment should not be reserved for people who cannot and/or will not grasp that fact.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I hope that you at least can see that for many, many people, those topics would be problematic. Your own comfort level is not the definition of what is and isn’t professional. Some topics are not good topics for work.
      And while no one has specifically objected to lunch conversations, people ARE leaving the company and citing the unprofesssional environment and values that they cannot align with.
      Those are objections to what’s happening, even if they don’t mention those conversations specifically.
      It’s so egregious that they are not speaking up, they’re just leaving. So not only is the company culture really unprofessional, it is not a culture where people can raise issues at all.

    4. Sneaky Squirrel*

      We can’t be sure that “no one is objecting” because everyone is cool with it though. New hires aren’t exactly in a position of power to raise objections in the company especially if their manager is observed playing along.

  79. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

    I have two reactions to this:

    1) Cardboard box hunt aside, alien sex aside, your office rewards people for betting on death and that ALONE is reason enough to get gone. To repeat what I said in a reply, I’m the one who asked last Friday about handling one single person in the office who liked to talk about who “needed to” die and absolutely no response was “Wow, she seriously sounds like fun!” LW, your office is encouraging *everyone* to talk about death on the daily – and incentivizing it with PTO!

    2) Alison is going to get enough material from these comments for a whole post of “unusual office mascots/inanimate coworkers.” In my case, ex-animate; when I was a teenager I worked for a camp who had a whole set of traditions about a stuffed deer head – up to and including throwing it surprise birthday parties. And yes, I did think it was hilarious to sneak quietly into the dark room where it was so the thing wouldn’t “hear us” but I was 17 at the time.

  80. Rachel*

    I think I have shared this story before, but in the vein of “Robert-like” traditions, my dad’s office back in the day used to have a birthday party for a mylar balloon. The balloon had lasted so long that they would bust it out each year to celebrate its birthday, complete with snacks. Once my dad was making some brownies, and my mom asked him what they were for, and he said they were for the balloon’s birthday party. Then my mom went nuts, saying that she “has to do actual work” at her job!

  81. BigLawEx*

    I think the original Robert called it. He disappeared, but did his work. Did anyone ever ask why?

    I find it deeply ironic that someone who may have been trying to avoid this ‘laid back’ culture became an icon for that very culture.

  82. Georgia*

    I work at a similarly quirky place and you HAVE to know where to draw the line. We have one guy who just doesn’t get it and regularly steps over it with both feet into sexual harassment territory. You haven’t lived until your nearly elderly male coworker tells everyone about his time as a “entertainer” and gives a brief, gyrating example. This guy has made one woman quit partially due to his behavior.

    It’s ok to be a little weird, but you also can’t be having in depth sex conversations on company property. I think sometimes close knit groups lose sight of boundaries as there’s a bit of creep over the line.

  83. anonymouse*

    I love your company energy, but I wonder if it can be channeled into work safe topics. Like instead of a celebrity death pool, why group brackets about inane things, like cake vs. pie, or the best Disney Channel animated show (both things I’ve seen online). Someone could set up the bracket, everyone could vote, there could be snacks. Or, depending on interest, you could have a weekly D 20 viewing party at lunch.

    Like I said, your company culture sounds pretty fun. Y’all just need to channel it in work appropriate ways.

    PS – never lose Robert Hunting. Create a Where is Robert pool during Robert Hunting season (and if there isn’t Robert Hunting Season, there should be – declared at random)

  84. Happy Over Here*

    At the risk of sounding like a party pooper…this all sounds pretty immature to me. I love a good inside joke and would definitely participate in some occasional shenanigans. But when you combine a mascot that was basically created to mock an employee, games featuring the mascot with candy as the prize, and really inappropriate group conversations, it kinda sounds like there are no adults in charge. Right or wrong, I’m picturing an environment with a lot of loud chatter and activity, which can really be grating. The graphic conversations and horseplay open the door for so many issues – complaints, lawsuits, injuries, and drama over who is working harder than whom. There are much better ways to foster a healthy culture where people feel safe.

  85. Not your typical admin*

    I wouldn’t be a good fit for this office.
    I enjoy a fun environment, but this seems very juvenile with an “in group”. I wouldn’t want to be the office party pooper trying to get work done, or to be the next Robert.

  86. Hildie*

    This office sounds like some kind of frat party straight out of National Lampoon’s Animal House. I wouldn’t want to work there. Laid back does not include betting on someone’s death (and being rewarded with a day off for guessing correctly) and extended conversations about whether or not ET has orgasms.

    This workplace sounds rather creepy, and there’s a whiff of self-congratulatory superiority about what the LW describes. Yeah, we get it: you all are just so much cooler and more laid-back than the uptight corporate drones in other offices. Uh huh. I’d pass on that.

    1. Amateur Linguist*

      Yeah, the attitude sounds like Beer Run Lady or the guy who christened the C-suite as the ‘Ding Dongs Merrily On High’. I’m a complete hyena when it comes to naughty humour, but there’s a very thin line between naughty/transgressive and just sickening/embarrassing/tawdry.

  87. DramaQ*

    And now I know what is going to rattle around in my ADHD brain all day.

    Given the honest to God professional conversations I’ve had during my career that outside of that particular setting would get me sent to HR the alien conversation doesn’t bother me.

    That being said it is not a conversation for the workplace be it at your desk or in the lunch room. It definitely should not have extended multiple days. Take that to a private group chat.

    The betting pool is off putting but the part that really gets me is the reward is a DAY OFF?!

    I would find it tacky if coworkers were betting amongst themselves but this sounds like an office/manager approved game if you are getting a day of free PTO. That isn’t fair to people who find the activity distasteful and wish not to participate. You are actively rewarding employees participating in the betting pool. PTO is part of compensation and those who are not participating get short changed.

    Robert doesn’t bother me in theory but if Robert is constantly a participant in office work besides sitting at his desk it would get distracting and annoying very quickly.

    I am wondering exactly how much work gets done? We play little games with each other to break tension but it is respected that we also need to be able to concentrate and focus. We buckle down when we need to. It is respected that this is a workplace not a dorm room and if we need to keep our heads down that’s what we do.

    Does your office do that or is there always some weird wacky “cool” thing going on? How much work is actually getting done during a day? Are people able to quietly focus or is there constant distraction going on that you’ve learned to filter out?

    If all your wacky stuff is bleeding into other people’s work/work areas/lunch then it’s a problem. Yes you can say it is no big deal Jane doesn’t participate but a brand new person isn’t going to intuit that. A new person is going to feel pressured to join and fit in and not be seen as a stick in the mud while trying to build capital/goodwill.

    Your managers need to start managing and clean up the frat boy culture you have going on if you want to attract employees. I don’t mind having fun with my coworkers but I don’t want to live in an episode of Impractical Jokers for 8 hours a day either.

  88. kingofsquash*

    I work at a whimsical workplace. Culturally, it’s somewhat expected (think quirky coffee shop), but there are plenty of roles that are more behind-the-scenes (think accounting). Here’s what it takes, imo, to make a workplace fun without being unprofessional:
    -humor and discussion at work stays strictly PG.
    -newer and quieter people are overtly welcomed, without being overwhelmed. Ideally, nobody feels that they have to act a certain way to belong.
    -work takes precedent. Nobody feels wary to interrupt a silly discussion if they have an actual work question.

  89. Anon For This One*

    This reminds me of Criminal Minds 9×12 (the ep with the ‘HR talk.’)
    Garcia (whispering): who blabbed?

  91. Flavor Flav's Clock*

    there’s already so many comments but just in case LW looks through, I’ll leave my 2 cents:

    I’m curious about WHO started the discussion about alien orgasms. not the person’s name or anything but who on the team. someone in management? and it’s not one of those things that just “started as a group”; either the conversation started somewhat neutral and someone sexualized it, or someone came right out of the gate with it.

    does this same person have a tendency to turn regular conversations sexual? is it the same person that’s suggested robert needs a girlfriend? where could that joke be going if not somewhere sexual?

    if it’s not the same person, is it a regular occurrence that nonsexual topics become sexual, by various people? I’m a very silly and open person but I just left a job where a person i had to regularly interact with could (and would) turn everyday average conversations towards sexual topics and that kind of environment is not goofy and playful, and you shouldn’t try to screen for more people who fit into it.

    example: I couldn’t mention videos or pictures without him bringing up porn/ only fans/ hinting that I was “making my own” media. do you know how hard it is for a records/ archives manager to not talk about videos and pictures?!

    Robert As an idea sounds funny but is also a symptom that management doesn’t actually manage in a meaningful way and if I were feeling harassed I wouldn’t trust management to handle it appropriately, since they couldn’t even find their own employee when they needed him and never addressed it with him.

    I also suspect that these are the things you’ve picked out as the most egregious examples because everything else has been normalized and there’s much more going on.

    these are just some things to consider, and keep an eye out for. if you notice this occurring, there’s your answer and people will continue to leave.

  92. BethRA*

    I also don’t think the issue is “Robert” and if your bosses really want to understand what’s going on, they should have someone reach out to the employees who left and ask. And then listen.

    Some of what you describe sounds fun, but all of it together? It’s a lot. And I’m willing to bet that the folks who walked aren’t the only people who take issue, but some folks either don’t want to speak up for fear of being ostracized, don’t want to bother because they don’t think it will change anything, or have lost their sense of what’s reasonable (see “missing stair”)

    1. Kyrielle*

      Or can’t afford to be without a job and are desperately job searching while trying to do their work while trying to “fit in” enough to stay there without losing their minds. I feel for any such people still in this office.

  93. LadyByTheLake*

    Robert is hilarious and fun. Full stop.

    A discussion of alien orgasms out with my personal friends — count me in! But at work, no — unprofessional and potentially illegal.

    Betting on whether people will die? Ugh.

  94. MM3891*

    Let me see if I get this straight. The real Robert, who preferred to do his work and go home and not be juvenile and performative all day, was turned into a cardboard caricature that’s STILL the butt of office jokes and games after he retired?

    There’s your problem. Singling out the person who didn’t participate in these antics for years is very, very far away from being inclusive. The message your company is sending is, “sure, you don’t have to participate in our shenanigans, but we’ll mock you if you don’t.”

    1. Abundant Shrimp*

      Oh, I missed that. I skimmed that paragraph and assumed that Robert was slacking off. Nope, Robert was the only one working and letting others do their work in peace.

    2. CityMouse*

      Yeah the thing about Robert being problematic is that Robert is based on a real person. If this was something like Flat Stanley that would be a very different situation. Making a model of a real person and making jokes crosses a line.

      1. Tea Witch*

        Sidebar: I’ve never heard anyone else mention Flat Stanley in the wild! I did the Flat Stanley project in elementary school. I mentioned it at work randomly not that long ago and got a room full of blank stares. No one else had even heard of it. And yes – I still live in the state I went to school in.

        Thank you for the validation that I didn’t make this up, and that it wasn’t a fever dream.

  95. SB2*

    I have such mixed feelings about this.

    In my 20s, I would have been delighted by all of this. In my 40s, only Robert appeals to me.

    It’s not that I would be offended by the death pool or the alien sex…it’s more that I have enough responsibility now that I would feel obligated to keep re-steering the conversation. And I don’t want more work. You know when you’re a kid and all you want to do is play and scream and run at the pool because it’s fun? That’s me in my early 20s in the workplace (metaphorically, of course) Now I’m a lifeguard and I am exhausted.

  96. Beth*

    I worked for a company that was multi-discipline – Tax, Audit and Consulting. The consulting team, who I was aligned with, was more “lively”. There was a statue of a golfer that said on the landing in the main stairwell and it would freak me out from time to time (undercaffeinated, running up stairs and catch a small person like figure looking at you, you might jump too – but I kept that to myself).

    One day I was sitting at my desk when one of the consultants, who was offsite that day, asked me if there was anything unusual in the elevator. Turns out he had been in the evening before and had placed “Jeeves” there – where he rode up and down with people until about 10 am.

    From that point on Bill and I claimed Jeeves as the consulting teams mascot, dressing him up for holidays, even taking him around the office for a photoshoot, including one in the parking lot appearing to look under the hood of Bill’s car. As we were bringing Jeeves back in, one of the Audit partners caught us and gave us major side eye. Never laughed more and still think of Jeeves from time to time.

  97. Susannah*

    I also would find the alien sex talk to be very uncomfortable and inappropriate. And honestly giving people days off for winning what s supposed to be a non mandatory quiz about dead celebrities is pretty unfair.
    That being said, the Robert thing is friggin’ BRILLIANT.

  98. Bruise Machine*

    I don’t hate the sound of this work environment, but it really swung back and forth for me, just reading about it.
    Cardboard Robert = cute and kind of charming.

    Betting on the death of people you don’t know and sexual conversations at lunch = uh oh.

    Listen, I can talk about all things sex and kink in a completely casual way. I’m Queer, I’m an erotica writer, and I am truly a connoisseur of Werewolves. But the thought of my coworkers (non-erotica environment btw) repeatedly discussing alien sexual organs really skeeves me out, even if I can perfectly discuss the same things in a private discord with my friends. Especially because the way I can picture them talking about it really pushes it into the territory of “this is not a safe environment for genuinely non-conventional (i.e. Queer) people”

    and that’s not even getting into the company (!!!) giving a paid day off if you can correctly predict a *person’s death.* That’s crazy work. Gallows humor is also, I’m gonna say, generally not something that should be in the workplace, even though I’m perfectly fine with it in private settings.

    Some things should stay in the group chat and out of the workplace.

    1. JennG*

      “Especially because the way I can picture them talking about it really pushes it into the territory of “this is not a safe environment for genuinely non-conventional (i.e. Queer) people””

      Bi, poly fantasy writer here and I had this exact thought too. Besides just understanding the issue around harassment, I would worry that in participating I would open the door to judgment in some way.

    2. queer at work*

      Same. I would guess that most of the office is straight people. I don’t always want to hear about sex from other queer people; I *definitely* don’t want to hear whatever nonsense straight people come up with regarding “aliens”.

    3. Immaterial*

      gallows humor pop up a lot in professions where people are under strain. see all the nurses etc. commenting here. Its a coping mechanism and often gets a pass because the workplace is inherently stressful, it is not a fun sign of a professional workplace.

  99. Indie*

    To be honest, the cutout Robert would creep me out way more than the inappropriate lunch talk. My skin starts crawling just at the thought of having a static figure sitting in this place each and every day and no way of escaping it. I can tune out the sex talk, but I can’t tune out the creepy factor.

    1. MM3891*

      My boss would agree. Our company recently acquired an almost life-size cutout of a famous athlete who was a guest speaker at an event we sponsored. Since we created the cutout, apparently that means we got to take it home. Storage space in the building is limited, so for now it’s leaning with its face against the wall in a corner of my boss’ office. He’s weirded out by it (and he’s one of the quirkiest people I’ve met in a professional setting!).

  100. thatoneoverthere*

    I worked in a place sort of like this. While I loved it at the time (and actually made some really good friends who I still am in contact with) it ended up being a very toxic place to work. My friends I still have were fine. But boundaries were crossed all the time. There was little accountability for management and things felt chaotic all the time. I am not saying this is the case for OP but I just wanted offer my experience. Some people simply didn’t see it at all. While there was a period of time I absolutely LOVED my time there, the majority of it was awful.

    OP just make sure, no boundaries are being crossed and no over sexualized talk at lunch. There isn’t much you can do about management (unless you are in that position).

  101. Tall Broad*

    I worked for a company with a very similar culture in the 2000s – 2010s. I had a great time, but looking back, I’m fairly horrified at what was considered appropriate lunchtime conversation. Those of us who were cool with it had all been interviewed by one similarly inappropriate VP, so I think that helped weed out folks who wouldn’t appreciate that kind of atmosphere. The irony is that the company sold corporate compliance courses. (I feel comfortable saying that because they no longer exist, having been bought by a larger company that completely subsumed them.)

  102. swanjun*

    I would find Robert amusing. I would find a prolonged discussion about orgasms extremely icky.

    1. allathian*

      I would find an office mascot amusing, as long as it wasn’t used to mock anyone. This mascot was created to mock a real person who preferred to opt out of the office shenanigans.

  103. GL*

    The thing is, there are work cultures where “sexual” topics are part of work, especially in online spaces where that content is allowed. Or maybe you work in a culture that is far less Puritanical than the US (or on the flipside, more).

    This may or may not be true here but my point is more that there are ways to interview for comfort around those topics. I worked at a tech company that allowed adult content and part of our process was discussing with a candidate if they would be comfortable offering customer support to a customer based in that (CS was part of the job). One candidate made it as far as in-person who ultimately opted out; their last role had been at a religious org so it wasn’t particularly surprising, but we let them opt out of the process vs. assuming they’d not be up for it.

    This becomes more challenging if it is culture vs. the work itself, but I still think it can be framed somehow in the interview process. And if opting out of team lunch doesn’t impact someone’s work relationships then I don’t think that particular topic needs to be there.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      To clarify this: if sexual topics are part of the work, discussing them (within the confines of the work itself) isn’t harassment. It’s the work.

      But if it’s not part of what you work on, you can’t legally decide your culture is one where people have to be comfortable talking about sex and screen for that in your hiring; federal law is very clear that that’s illegal.

      Harassment law also stays in effect during lunches, happy hours, and other things where your colleagues are present. There’s no “it’s not harassment because we’re off the clock” exception in the law.

    2. DramaQ*

      VERY different when it is part of a work conversation vs a debate about alien orgasms in the lunch room for multiple days.

      You had to be comfortable talking about animal sex in my previous job but that was part of the job. Everything would grind to a halt if we couldn’t get the animals to cooperate and several of us were involved in that process. I’d regularly be reading scientific papers about the topic and I know WAY more about certain animals breeding habits than probably one person ever needs to know.

      Those were academic/professional conversations. If a office person walked by they might raise an eyebrow if they missed part of the conversation but I could easily show that this was a work related subject.

      It is quite different being expected to tolerate sex conversations about aliens or Robert’s cardboard girlfriend. You cannot legally ask people if they are okay with that because you have a right to not hear about that stuff in the workplace.

      You have a right to do your job. You don’t have the right to be immature frat boys.

  105. timeisacircle*

    Let me just first say I would probably most of your workplace. But, your workplace doesn’t sound very welcoming to newcomers or a diverse employee group. You may call it “inclusive” because you all similarly enjoy alternative humor or antics–but they actually result in excluding many potential employees. Your quirky workplace appears more important to your candidates than the work you do.

    My first suggestion would be to tone down the inappropriate lunch conversations. Go have a drink after work and talk about whatever, but in the workplace politics, religion, and sex are taboo topics in a group setting unless it’s part of the actual work your company does.

    Having a group betting pool on what public figure is going to die next is creepy –and even creepier that the CEO actually awards paid time off for the correct guess.

  106. Miss Chanadaler Bong*

    I’ve worked in health care for years and so have a dark, twisted and gallows sense of humor but in changing to a different type of healthcare I realized that my particular sense of humor and general interaction with co-workers wasn’t necessarily appropriate at all work places. Even I wouldn’t participate in discussions about alien orgasms. I love a good and fun lunchtime discussion ( best teen movie of the 90’s/00’s, BSB vs NSYNC, if you were doing the job you said you wanted to do when you were 5 what would you be doing, etc.) I find it interesting that it didn’t occur to you that some people may not feel comfortable with that. You want the people who join your office to be good at their job, that should be your primary focus. Isn’t that what you are all there for? I think the Robert thing is fun, though in reading other comments agree that you seem to be singling out the individual who opted not to participate in your specific activities. Are people who don’t participate truly not excluded in other ways? Getting a paid day off for guessing a death sounds like a benefit that not everyone is eligible for and it is pretty cringy. Your question shouldn’t be, “how do we hire people who won’t be offended by our culture” but rather “is our culture preventing us from recruiting and retaining the employees we need to be successful as a business (or whatever field you are in)?

    1. MM3891*

      +1 to your last point. I get the feeling that this company is worried so much about their cringe culture and not the actual work they (supposedly) do. Things like productivity, ROI, revenue, client satisfaction. You know, BUSINESS? I’d be curious to know what its reputation is like within its industry or geographic area. Companies get known for things whether they realize it or not, and if word is getting out about poor retention and questionable behavior, that’s really going to affect the bottom line eventually.

  107. Just your friendly neighborhood recruiter*

    Aside from the fact that there are aspects of this particular company’s culture that are questionable, I’ve worked at some pretty ‘fun’ work environments. Here’s how I’d generally recommend interviewing someone for culture:

    -Be transparent about the fun, oddball things your company or team does. That kind of stuff may actually be a real selling point to the right candidate! Use it in employment branding and make a point to bring it up in interviews so folks know what to expect and can self-select out if it’s not for them. Feel free to make your job descriptions a bit more ‘fun’ or include humor as an initial indicator. Bring candidates by Robert on an office tour during their interview.
    -Introduce a Peer Q&A or casual lunch/coffee interview as part of the process so potential new hires can get to know team members and hear about more of the culture. One of the big questions candidates always ask is about company culture and this is a great way for them to get an authentic window into it.
    -Ask candidates what they liked AND what they didn’t like about previous company cultures where they’ve worked. That will help you see if there’s a potential misalignment.

    1. MM3891*

      I think a group lunch could be a good idea, provided everyone knows to keep the topics PG. I would encourage them to be themselves and show their personalities, because you’d want the candidate to get a true picture of what these folks are like, but nothing sexual or graphic. That feels like that should go without saying, but maybe not with this group.

      I don’t think this is something any company can really solve for, but it’s just important to keep in mind that people’s workplace preferences can change. As others have said, they may have liked a place like this at one point, but not where they currently are in life. People’s attitudes and tastes can change over time, and what felt fun and bonding 15 years ago is now an annoying, distracting hassle. I think there may be candidates who think they’ll be okay in a place like this, but it doesn’t take them long to realize it’s misaligned with the current version of them.

      1. Insulindian Phasmid*

        IDK, if the point is to find people who do want to hang out with the unfiltered group on the job, then you’d WANT the team to be their unfiltered selves so the candidate knew what they were in for.

        1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

          I wouldn’t want to expose interviewees to potential random sexual content during an interview, regardless.

  108. TerrorCotta*

    I’m fairly well known for being the filthiest potty mouth in the room, who can make an innuendo out of ANYTHING. I work in an industry where that’s not a problem, but I still had to figure out how to make sure I’m not running roughshod over other people’s obvious (or not so obvious) discomfort.

    And in my previous edgelord days, I even *bragged about* their discomfort being the best part of the joke. I can almost guarantee at least one of the Lunch Club is instigating and encouraging that level of competitive raunchiness for the same reason, and not just at lunch.

    So yeah, even “lol, what kind of BOX are we getting Robert for a girlfriend” probably wasn’t intended to be cute, either. OOP (and some of the comments here) seems to think the office is offering “open and free fun and whimsey, no one gets cancelled for being a goof, even when we’re a little naughty!” and the problem is accidentally hiring the easily offended.

    But I speak from experience when I say you have to Edge the Lord with panache and consideration, otherwise you’ve just got an office full of tedious, sexually-harassing hacks.

  109. HireMePleaseandThankYou*

    I’ve never wanted to work more at a company than OP’s company. I don’t care what they do. It sounds like the most perfectly quirky place to work and it makes my heart happy.

  110. RetiredInnkeeper*

    I could work here. It’s not required that you participate in anything other than the work you’re there to do. I cringe at some of the things we used to do at work back when it seemed like the entire company was between 25-40 years old.

    If your workplace is truly inclusive, anyone who didn’t like the topic of conversation could say so without repercussions. Can they? And do they know they can?

    (There probably aren’t too many TV shows that can be talked about without someone being upset. I had to keep saying, ‘GOT? Nope, gotta get back to work now!’)

    It’s possible the people who left thought things were going to get much worse than what they witnessed and it was going to be a useless job to have on a résumé somewhere in the future.

    If you’re not pranking colleagues, or ostracizing them because they don’t care for certain topics, if there’s no detriment to their career for non participation, then your best bet in hiring is to be totally upfront that your workplace is more open than most, but everyone is welcome to participate, or not, in the fun. To make sure that doesn’t backfire on you, it should be clear that this does not mean they’re looking for a job at Animal House.

  111. anonymous worker ant*

    LW if people are leaving for culture fit issues, you’re not inclusive. You might be inclusive of explicit -isms, but you’re implicitly excluding people anyway.

    The way to fix the Robert issue is to introduce them to Robert at the interview, he’s right there in the office, it shouldn’t be hard (take the chance to introduce other workers as well, of course.) If someone can’t handle a cardboard coworker they probably can’t handle a diverse workplace, that’s not really an inclusivity problem.

    The solution to the lunch room conversations is to have someone who’s willing to speak up when there’s new people (or quiet) people in the room and say “Hey, this might be getting a little not safe for work, can we switch topics?” (Thanks to AAM for giving me the confidence to be that person in my workplace.) It can be something that’s press on manager/supervisors that it’s their job, it can be you. This doesn’t mean you have to never talk about alien sex ever again; it means demonstrating to new people that you value their comfort over your conversation, and modeling that it’s okay to speak up if they’re not comfortable and people will support them. If that’s a habit, you will probably settle into a new norm

    The solution to the deadpool is to have the prize be something *not funded by the company* and make it very clear it’s not an official work thing. And to think very hard about what else that you think is informal and optional is actually, in fact, not informal and optional, because you’ve clearly lost sight of that.

  112. Rags*

    Having read the comments, it’s interesting to note that the “my office has a no-humor policy” letter also had a lot of “I would LOVE to work at that place” comments (may these two sets of commenters never work in the same place). What I thought about that letter holds here too – if this workplace is committed to behavior that is outside typical work norms, they have to make that extremely explicit to candidates. Both so the people who don’t want to deal with required whimsy (or being reported to HR for a copy machine joke) can avoid it, and so the people who would love it know it’s the job for them.

  113. raincoaster*

    I really enjoy these “The problem you have isn’t the one you think you have” responses.

  114. Person from the Resume*

    I’m in an organization (not workplace) that is having this problem.

    A couple of loud gregarious people tend to discuss sexual things. Other seemingly more mature folks go along with it, and find it hilarious. And I’m discovering people are just silently leaving the group. As one person said, I’ve organized my life to avoid associating with immature dudes like this.

    Why would a new person speak up and say that makes me uncomfortable when all the other employees don’t. They don’t want to get labeled a prude or no fun or uncool; they just leave because they’ve realized they don’t fit in.

    Also it is interesting how ingrained the LW is in the culture it appears LW thinks the cardboard cutout coworker is as big a problem than discussing alien orgasms and genitalia for multiple day or the crassness of an ongoing celebrity death pool.

    1. D C F*

      Yep, being the One Who Speaks Up is not a fun, comfortable role to play. And then having to keep working day after day with people whose feelings are ruffled due to your speaking up is even less fun and comfortable.

    2. Magnolia Cordelia*

      “I’m in an organization (not workplace) that is having this problem.”

      Please tell me it’s not church! (Sorry, again I couldn’t resist.)

  115. RagingADHD*

    Yeah, the framing of this question is really unfair to Robert. Robert is the one person we can be sure isn’t out here sexually harassing people.

    I’m also pretty sure that the employee who quit because the office didn’t align with their values wasn’t talking about Robert, either.

  116. Diane Chambers*

    Couple things:

    1. As others have said, the paid day off for the celebrity death pool bumps this up a level – there is buy-in from above? Not good.

    2. The Robert thing is kind of funny, but the fact that it’s based on a real person seems mean.

    3. I think people misunderstand what “work cultures” are ok to select for. It’s one thing if your office has a lot of last-minute emergencies, to let someone know “we need people willing to be a little flexible on the hours and projects they work.” It’s different and not OK to say “if you don’t think sex jokes are funny, this probably isn’t the office for you” (unless the job is, like, writing for the Onion). Not only is it not inclusive, it’s irresponsible to the bottom line if you’re screening out good candidates because of personality traits that have nothing to do with their ability to do the job.

    Again, this reminds me of the unmanaging boss who seemed to think the office existed as a place for her and her friends to have fun, not to, you know, sell real estate or whatever it was.

    1. mpe1*

      Your point 3 is spot on – and that’s also the way abusers start sounding out targets/enablers. (‘Hey, I was only joking, can’t you take a joke, don’t you have a sense of humour’ etc. ‘No. No, I don’t. Goodbye.’)

      1. Diane Chambers*

        It’s funny- I was actually a little hesitant to write this, thinking I might get an “Ugh, clearly Diane Chambers has no sense of humor.” And honestly, this stuff wouldn’t bother me too much, though I wouldn’t see it as a plus and would probably be rolling my eyes quite a bit. But that’s your exact point- a person shouldn’t suffer at work because they don’t have “a sense of humor” as arbitrarily defined by their coworkers.

  117. Moon Shoes*

    A very close friend of mine worked in video game development, where a culture like this was the norm for years, apparently almost expected.

    Eventually the company expanded and enough new hires who quietly hated this aspect of the job (including some highly celebrated employees) pushed back hard, and the office degenerated into two camps: “But this these things are FUN and we can’t be productive if things aren’t FUN, this is a FUN industry” vs. “We don’t want to talk about dead celebrities and alien orgasms at work, this is unprofessional, other companies will look down on this, and it’s taking up a lot of energy and time at work we could all put to better use.” My friend was in the latter camp, and some of the things he described were very gross, worse than the dead celebrity game, and contest winners were routinely rewarded with free office beer, swag and merch, and other perks.

    The group that wanted a no-holds-barred environment tried a wide variety of tactics (“You guys can all sit together far from us” … “Stop squashing our first amendment rights!” … “You don’t understand industry norms” … etc) but all failed in the face of legal consequences. The company HR ended up firing the most enabling manager and whoever replaced them slowly but surely got the office under control.

    Who knows what would have happened, though, if that group of employees hadn’t banded together and pushed back against this stuff.

  118. Baygull*

    This sounds more like a sitcom about an office than an actual office.

    Personally I’m not a prude but I am pretty asexual, so I would find the sex talk boring (and uncomfortable, because I’d feel like I was expected to contribute.)

  119. Casual Observer*

    Giving people a day off based on games conducted during lunch? Where not everyone joins? and based on games in which people might not want to participate even if they did join? Oh, hell no. That’s essentially treating people differently, which is not okay.

  120. Antigone*

    Robert is fine. Death betting pools for PTO, and protracted discussions of genitalia, are not. If you really want to hire for this I think at minimum you have to start with discussing that you have a quirky and very social office culture, that there’s a lot of team meals and skipping them can cause you to miss out on team culture and PTO opportunities, and maybe even the scandal pool as an example. I can’t see how you work the cloaca discussion into it, but weeding out at least the folks who aren’t into team lunches and office death gambling will be doing both you and them a favor.

    But you’ll really want to run that by HR and legal first if they’re not already good and aware of the death pool.

  121. Cheap Ass Hellmouth*

    Your lunch discussions are the kind of thing I’d enjoy with my friend group because:
    *I can leave/not show up whenever I feel like it
    *I can shut down or excuse myself from any conversation I don’t like or am not in the mood for
    *I don’t miss out on perks or get penalized for not participating
    *in a friend group I can control for the people who will be participating

    At work, I am going to feel pressured into participating, intimidated from drawing boundaries around what I am and am not comfortable with in the moment, stuck around coworkers who may not care about other people’s boundaries, and not have the same opportunities as the edgelords.

    Sexual harassment laws don’t exist because our society is run by humorless, tyrannical haters of fun. They exist because sometimes you just want to go to work, get paid, and go home without having to think about your coworkers and orgasms

  122. anon cat*

    Oh my lord. I work at a company where we talk about sex because it’s in many of the books we publish, but that’s made very clear during the hiring process. Even then it’s a bit awkward and nobody does more than joke about how it’s handled in the books.

  123. PatM*

    There’s something about the day-off deadpool that bothers me. Like if it was a day-off for a March Madness bracket or award show predictions or something similar, I would be fine with that. Or if the deadpool prize was funded by the participants, like an ante or buy-in, I’d also be fine. I would probably pick randomly with the former and just not participate with the latter. Maybe that’s the difference, I’d be missing out if I didn’t participate and participating requires me to think deeply about an uncomfortable topic.

    Lunch conversations at work with your coworkers should stick to SFW topics, and boy does your company not do that.

    1. MM3891*

      It doesn’t require you to think that hard, though. I’m surprised at how many people are shocked at the celebrity death pools. It’s never been done at my own workplaces but I’ve heard of them since I’ve been in the workforce (20-something years now). Most people don’t go all deep-thought on them. You do pick randomly, usually older celebrities. And, you’re not saying you WANT these people to die. You’re just accepting that we will all die eventually and laying odds on who will go first.

  124. Liz R-H*

    I was sexually harassed at work by a colleague who, when she could no longer get me alone, would continue her harassment by bringing up sexualized topics in group discussions like the lunch you described. It was a vicious tactic that showed me I would never be safe in that workplace, and I quit shortly thereafter.

  125. Seraphina*

    To me, this workplace generally sounds like a BLAST. Sign me up. The Robert humor is my kind of weird/goofy.

    However, talking about orgasms of any species, real or pretend, would fall under sexual harassment at most companies I’ve worked for (that convo would make me feel pretty uncomfortable, too). And, I can see how some people might feel uncomfortable predicting celebrity deaths.

  126. Maurice Ratted Me Out*

    None of this strikes me as strange or funny as much as just juvenile and STUPID.

    The way some people choose to waste their time…

  127. earlthesachem*

    All the other issues aside, the important question here is, where did the real Robert hide every day to get all his work done.

    Did he find an old, forgotten storage closet and set up shop?

    Was he hiding in the basement next to the boiler?

    Did he discover a portal to a parallel dimension that allowed him to work in relative peace and quiet, interrupted only by the occasional kaiju incursion?

    1. Employee of the Bearimy*

      Just popping in to say I appreciate the “Kaiju Preservation Society” reference.

  128. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    Like a lot of people, I first read it as Robert was a slacker who mysteriously couldn’t be fired.

    But rereading, Robert was not a slacker–all of Robert’s work got done on time, he just didn’t take part in any of the office shenanigans. Thus did he become a cardboard cut-out who couldn’t escape said shenanigans.

    Perhaps the people leaving figured they wanted to get out while they hadn’t made much of an impression, and so couldn’t become part of the running joke.

      1. Bathyphysa Conifera*

        It’s like the ouija board–I don’t believe in anything associated with them, but nonetheless it’s a weird mousepad choice, like the vibe becomes I’m accidentally summoning various spirits while filling out this spreadsheet.

        Even if Robert is well out of there, making the cardboard cutout (while he was still there!) of the one person who just did his work and couldn’t be looped into the death pools and such–I’m rethinking whether “That’s Robert. It’s what we do to people who don’t play along” might have greased the track to the exit for the new people.

  129. Tea Witch*

    OP, if you are honest with yourself, I think you know Robert is not the issue.

    This entire letter gives me “tech bro startup” vibes. There’s a significant difference between a quirky and fun workplace, such as a cardboard coworker with a charming story attached to it, and inappropriate lunchroom convos that almost certainly don’t abruptly cut off at lunch. All it takes is one coworker to swing around in his desk chair and kick off with “But I’m just saying…” and the inappropriate convo resumes.

    I think it’s significant that both new hires who left abruptly are female-presenting; I also think it’s significant that the coworker who opts out of the group lunches because she “spends all day with her coworkers” is female-presenting. Two people uncomfortable with the culture felt they had to leave rather than speak up. One that has stayed excludes herself from a group activity. Even on a team of 30 people, 10% have expressed some level of discomfort with the professionalism. If your team is smaller – say, 10 people – now you have 30% who are expressing they aren’t happy with the culture in one form or another.

    I think it matters, too, if these are “growth” hires or “replacement” hires. If you hired Sally and Jan because Ken and Martha moved on to different work, that’s one thing. But if Sally and Jan are hired the company has grown and you need more people to do all this work, well… not everyone is going to be OK with Hunger Games – Celebrity Edition.

  130. Caliphate*

    I don’t think Robert is the problem. I’ve worked in more than one place that had “flat coworkers” that went with us on trips and we had a “flat Ruth” little RBG cartoon that had her own IG account that we all loved.

    The problem is that you’ve had two people quit over your company’s culture. That’s a giant red flag. I would not at all be surprised if you have lost other employees that maybe didn’t feel comfortable raising their concerns and you probably will lose more.

  131. Donna Moss*

    LW: I am going to say this bluntly: I am 99.9% sure that Robert is not the issue (or at least not the main one).

    As Alison said, it’s the sexualized discussions that are the issue. It doesn’t matter if people don’t have to participate or not, people should not be subject to sexual discussions at work, even if it is just over hearing it.

    Also, betting on which celebrity will die next seems pretty mean-spirited, and it would make me seriously side-eye my co-workers if they were taking bets on something like that.

    The Robert thing seems fun, and I would really enjoy that, but the rest of it would greatly concern me.

  132. HannahS*

    I think that sometimes people misunderstand what “inclusive” means. An inclusive workplace is one that welcomes many different kinds of people and accommodates for them. It is not a group of lovable mis-fits who create a culture that suits themselves. I see it happen sometimes, where a group of people who have felt excluded from “stuffy” or “typical” workplaces band together and create something they love, and then FEEL so included, but aren’t considering who is being excluded by the culture. I have to wonder if that’s what’s happening here. Is your organization really inclusive? Do you have people of various ages, ethnicities, religions, sexualities/gender IDs, abilities/disabilities, family status? Or is everyone kinda the same?

    1. Abundant Shrimp*

      You’re bringing up a very good point – people don’t typically leave an inclusive workplace because it’s too inclusive for their values. Well, non-horrible people don’t, and I get the feeling that neither of the two people who left were horrible people.

      1. HannahS*

        Yeah. Like, obviously a workplace that is vocally and committedly inclusive to queer people might make someone homophobic feel unwelcome, but that’s ok by me!

        It also occurs to me that workplaces can be inclusive of people without centering them. A workplace can be inclusive of people who prefer a quieter environment with fewer jokes while still being overall noisy and fun; you just have to let people opt out. But what the OP is describing isn’t that. Robert is described as a competent employee who didn’t participate and was then made into a joke while he was still working there and after he left. That’s not inclusive.

    2. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      This is a good point.

      Statistically, we like being in groups of people exactly like us. So hiring for conformity tends to make people happy and comfortable. But all those rigidly conformed people–even if they have rigidly conformed to The Official Quirks Of Our Wacky Group Of Iconoclasts In Unison–don’t bring a variety of perspectives and new ideas to the table.

  133. Port*

    So that workplace is A Lot. I would quit too, just too much chaotic energy going on. I’m also bad at pretending things are funny when they aren’t, which I’d have to do there it sounds like all the time.

  134. tsts*

    I think the box sounds fun, alien sex talk is… I could grit my teeth and tolerate it, but the death pool would have me immediately job searching. That is ghoulish.

  135. Office Plant Queen*

    I might feel bemused about Robert, even if it was way more of a thing than this letter implies, but I would be deeply uncomfortable with the multi-day conversation about alien sex. If it comes up once briefly as an off color joke or comment I’d brush it off. Not great, but whatever. But any more than that and I’d be questioning if I should keep working there. I certainly wouldn’t feel like I fit in with the culture

    And like, I’m no prude. But I’m pretty clear on my boundaries around who I’m willing to have that kind of conversation with and what level of detail I’m willing to discuss. With coworkers, the only level I’d be fully comfortable with is something like, “we want to start trying for a baby right after the wedding”

  136. Hellbent on Peace*

    I would love working here.
    Please post any open positions. I will move if I need to.

  137. Observer*

    LW, I haven’t read most of the replies, because I’m late to this. But I want to say that your framing makes me suspect that the culture in your organization is actually quite bad in a frat-bro adjacent way.

    To you the “BIG” issue is Cardboard Robert. But the lunch topics are NBD. And that is utterly backwards.

    Whenever you feel the need to say something like “It sounds worse written down than it actually feels” you should stop and think about how bad it probably really is to most people and what it says about your norms and culture that it’s *normal* there and you think it’s ok, and everyone else is too uptight.

    I’m not sure which is worse – the employer backed ghoulishness (the betting pool on which celebrity will die or be engulfed in a scandal) or the incredibly sexualized wide scale conversations. *Either* of those would be a real problem for a lot of people. Being stuck in a workplace where *both* are normalized? Yeah, I can see why people nope out of there.

    This has nothing to do with age. And you don’t need to hide Robert. But you *do* need to understand that “How could we find people who would feel comfortable discussing whether the aliens from Arrival understand sex” is actually the wrong question to ask. Because that’s an incredibly problematic dynamic in an office. And this is the toned down version of the discussion you described.

    So, not the answer you wanted. But the answer you need. And I hope an answer you make use of.

  138. Ramona the Pest*

    I love the “Jay’s pencil” label and all. In the vintage Mts. Piglet Wiggle books the selfish boy has all his personal items labeled until the petty level cured him. The solutions were so creative (the never want to go bedders got to stay up all night) and the names were like Percival Wigginsby. There was always the obnoxious parent who responded with , “ Oh, Gwendiva always shares while playing. She shares all her toys with a rotation schedule so every child gets a turn!”

    1. Magnolia Cordelia*

      I remember that story! Everything was labeled “Percival’s pencil, don’t touch!” and “Percival’s book, don’t touch!” Then finally, one of his classmates put a sign on Percival’s back that said, “This is Percival. Don’t touch him!”

  139. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    I am floored by the thought that Robert is the problem. Robert sounds awesome. I’ve had a couple of jobs where a Robert-like experience was the best ice-breaker.

    That LW can’t separate laid-back Robert fun from the rest is part of the culture problem. “It’s just in fun” is a huge problem when it is used to remove all boundaries

  140. IDK*

    “Someone suggested hiding Robert for a while, but wouldn’t it be better for new hires to know what they’re getting into? How could we find people who would feel comfortable discussing whether the aliens from Arrival understand sex and also think it’s perfectly normal to greet a cardboard coworker?”

    These are such out-there questions that it’s hard to take anything about this company seriously, and I’m guessing that’s the biggest reason the exiting employees didn’t feel it was a good fit. It seems like an incredibly unprofessional work environment with lackadaisical management.

  143. Mildly Cold Orbiting Body*

    I will read alien sex, I will write alien sex, I will make references to things that people in the know might get a giggle out of.
    I do not under any circumstances want to talk about any kind of sex at work. Alien sex, human sex, animal sex. It doesn’t belong in a workplace that I want to be a part of.
    Equally, I don’t want to joke about celebrity death. If I’m betting on scandals I want it to be which celebrity puts their foot in their mouth this Oscars season, not who is found to have been hurting people.
    Robert is not the problem. Robert has never been the problem.

  144. Raida*

    Robert would be easy to bring up in interviews – at the end of every month we have a carboard cutout called Robert who’s hidden and teams works together to find “him”.
    That sounds fun, especially when it’s combined with “our workloads naturally dip by the end of the month so it’s only spare time used”

    “We have a board in the office of celebrity gossip but only the most negative stuff”. Well that sounds tacky as fck and should not be something that is larger than a little board at a person’s desk. Where is it, in the lunch room?

    “We often eat lunch together in the office, very casual, couple times a week, different people, some people never do and it’s never been an issue.” Cool.
    “We often eat lunch together, and it’s a no-work-talk zone between 11-2pm” Very Cool!
    “We often eat lunch together but if any of these [list] of subjects sound like not-a-good-time you’d better each ALONE.” Huh… Thanks for the warning?

  145. Duck, Duck, Goose*

    Honestly I worked at a Catholic K-12 school for 5 years (you know, where people teach children) and this honestly sounds more tame than a lot of the staffroom talk.

    I currently work in industrial agriculture (for 5 years now). Where inappropriate epithets are thrown around endearingly.

    So I mean… I guess some workplaces aren’t for everyone?

  146. Jane*

    Alison hit the nail on the head. I was like, “This isn’t about Robert. Forget Robert! This is about alien orgasms!”

  147. RamonaThePest*

    Alison absolutely gets this one right on the continuing lunches with colleagues debating aliens having sex and orgasms. Cardboard Robert is not the problem here.

    I was once part of a conversation between my all female colleagues and their sex lives with their husbands. It was way, way more than I wanted to know. When your husband wants to have sex, how your first born was conceived in a blizzard–just noping it out right now. I made a joke of running out of the room with “Lalala not listening right now!”

    One said, “X ethnicity girls are so prudish ab0ut sex.”

    Yeah, two HR violations in one right there. OP, it’s not cardboard Robert that’s the problem.

    1. Me Three*

      For me personally, the Robert hunt isn’t the main problem, but it’s part of the problem. The idea of physically hunting down some cardboard figure with my work colleagues every month would get old for me very fast. I might find this fun to do with my friends, but not with work colleagues. Part of the issue here is that I don’t think the LW feels that there is a large difference between those two groups.

      As others have said, the whole atmosphere smacks of late nights in the college dorms, of people in a certain phase in life where your personal life and your professional life kind of run together. I can not imagine any type of conversation about orgasms with my current work colleagues. With a few exceptions, they’re not my friends.

      The implied “you’re not much fun” towards the people who don’t want to participate doesn’t help.

      I’m guessing the office has a lot of relatively young people who are not really settled down or have had a lot of personal hardships (if a lot of people close to you have died, a death betting pool does not sound like fun). I wonder if this atmosphere is in the best interest of the company’s goal of hiring the best workers.

  148. LifeisaDream*

    Personally, I wouldn’t want to work in your office either. It sounds creepy with the death pool and juvenile with the sex talk and the cardboard cut out.

  149. Despachito*

    I also think it is not Robert.

    I find the sex conversations and the betting on people’s death very off-putting and weird, and I wonder to what extent this weirdness permeates other interactions in the company.

  151. Over Analyst*

    I really like the answer here. I would really enjoy working at this workplace except for the (multiday?!?) discussion of alien orgasms. I don’t want to talk about sex in any form with my coworkers ever. Robert sounds fun! And since the celebrity pool also covers scandals I don’t think it’s necessarily morbid either.

  153. EmmaPoet*

    At one of my previous jobs, I once told my boss, who jokingly asked why we didn’t have normal conversations, “We do have normal conversations here! It’s just that our ‘normal’ is everyone else’s ‘Back away from them slowly and don’t make any sudden moves.'” We dealt with a lot of heavy stuff, and could definitely spin towards dark humor. We did hire for people who could handle the weird, because it was an everyday experience when working with the public and if you didn’t laugh you’d scream or cry. We still managed to avoid death pools in the office and openly sexualized conversations.

  154. WorkingRachel*

    OP, two people quitting a few weeks in is a pretty big deal, assuming this is a typical office environment and not something with a lot more turnover, like a call center. That’s not “didn’t accept an offer.” That’s not “realized it’s a bad fit and stuck it out for a year.” That’s someone had an “oh shit, this place really sucks,” and left ASAP. Especially so if as far as you know they didn’t leave straight for another job.

    As everyone has said, sex talk over lunch is a big deal. With my friends after work? Great. In the workplace? Absolutely not.

    The celebrity death pool didn’t bother me, until you mentioned that people get extra time off for winning! That makes it discriminatory/pressure filled.

    And I’m not entirely sure about Robert, either. It would not bother me to have a cardboard cutout or other inanimate “coworker.” That’s cute and fun. But the part where he’s based on a past coworker gives me pause. If the Robert culture at all involves mocking a past coworker, that would raise all my red flags about how this workplace handles conflict and even the management style–why on earth was Robert not fired far before it escalated to someone creating a cardboard cutout of him for a team photo?

  155. MCMonkeyBean*

    Yeah, I also really doubt it’s Robert. That sound strange but charming. Death pools and orgasms however have no place in the office break room IMO and given that this is just a small list of examples I have to wonder how many other extremely uncomfortable things are happening there…

  159. too many cats*

    Oh my god, this place sounds exhausting. I don’t want to be Doing A Bit all day, I just want to do my work and collect my paycheck.

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