the office with the cardboard coworker, part 2

by Alison Green on April 6, 2026

Remember the letter last month from the person asking how their office could hire people who wouldn’t be uncomfortable with their culture and quickly leave? Among other things, they mentioned a cardboard cut-out coworker (Robert), a celebrity death betting pool where winners would get an extra day off, and a lunchtime discussion of whether aliens can have orgasms. The letter-writer provided more info after my response, and agreed I could share it and respond here:

Thank you for responding to my letter. After reading the response and comments, I realized that the alien orgasm example drew more attention than I expected, even though I had meant it as one particularly bad example rather than the main issue itself. I wanted to add a little more context and clarify a few points.

The alien orgasm example was an outlier, and one of the worst examples I could remember, which is why I used it. The “alien anatomy” discussion was also less about sex itself than about whether extraterrestrials would experience pleasure or physical sensation the same way humans do, especially if they did not even have bodies like ours. I understand that it was still inappropriate, but some commenters seemed to come away with the impression that sex is a regular topic in the office, and that is not really the case.

A more typical version of these conversations would be discussions about books, movies, and TV shows. We have had conversations like which horror movie character was so stupid that you actively rooted for their death. We have also had conversations like which politician you would “make disappear” if you could get away with it, but when someone pointed out that it was inappropriate, the conversation moved on without any fuss. In general, the conversations tend to get strange in a morbid way rather than in a sexualized one. That is still a problem, of course, just not quite the same one some people focused on.

The office betting pool is less about hostility toward specific celebrities and more about the kind of morbid joking people make about public figures who seem as though they have been old forever. The attitude is usually more “I cannot believe this person is still alive” than “I want this person to die.” Similarly, the “scandals” people talk about are usually things like cheating, wearing something provocative, or being rude to a fan, rather than actual criminal behavior. I do not participate in the betting pool because I would feel too guilty winning a paid day off by correctly guessing someone’s death, but people do sometimes mention their picks during lunch.

I mentioned lunch because that is usually when the conversations can get strange. Most of our work requires concentration, so there is not much chatting during the day, and many people wear headphones most of the time. Team lunches also really are optional. We are a small team inside a large company, so the whole team does not eat together every day, but there are usually six to eight people having lunch together, even if it is not always the same group.

I described cardboard Robert as the strangest part because all the other things are occasional, and lunch itself is optional. Some people never have lunch with the team, and that is completely fine. But Robert is there every day, sitting at a desk and being greeted. It took me about two months to find out there was a death pool, and some time before I heard one of the more inappropriate lunch conversations, but I was introduced to Robert on my first day. My manager even told the team to act normal during my first week so they would not scare me off. The monthly “hunt” for Robert is optional and avoidable, but comments about him happen every day, and new employees are introduced to him as though he is simply part of the team.

In your response, it seemed as though my letter came across as asking, “How can we change our culture so people don’t feel this is a sexualized environment?” I can understand why, given the example I used, but the help I was really hoping for was a little different. What I was trying to ask was something more like, “How can I help my manager hire someone who is likely to fit in here, while also giving candidates a fair sense of what the office is like, so neither side feels misled?” Someone suggested inviting candidates to join a typical team lunch, and that was much closer to the kind of suggestion I had been hoping for.

I also appreciated your point that inappropriate conversations are inappropriate no matter when they happen. I do know that, and I think at least part of the team knows it too, given the ongoing joke that there is probably a reason our room is physically as far from HR as possible. But I am not a manager, and honestly I do not want to be one. My manager decided that because I was the most recent hire, I was the right person to help her think through this, even though I do not really have the authority or the tools to change how the team operates. I will pass these points along to her, but I do not think much would change without rebuilding the team almost from scratch.

To be clear, I do understand why these things are a problem. I am not trying to defend them or suggest that people are wrong for not wanting to work here. I just wanted to provide more context so I could get advice that was more specific to the situation I was actually asking about. Some of the comments were genuinely helpful, and I was hoping that with a better explanation I might get more of that. But if the answer is still simply that the culture needs to change, I do understand that, and I appreciate your response anyway.

Sincerely,
The Person with the Cardboard Coworker

I do get what you’re saying, and this adds helpful nuance, particularly that this is mostly happening at lunch! But yes — my answer is still that the culture might be the problem.

Your letter didn’t come across as if you were asking, “How can we change our culture so people don’t feel this is a sexualized environment?” It was clear that you were asking how to hire people more likely to fit in. It’s just that the culture is the thing your boss should be looking at.

If your boss truly wants an inclusive culture, she’s got to take another look at things like giving people extra days off for winning celebrity death pools, sexualized conversations that extended over multiple days (and I take your point that the alien orgasm conversation was an outlier, but it’s a thing that happened and stuck in your mind enough to mention it), and what sounds in general like a sort of doubling down on silliness to the point that it permeates the office in a way that a lot of people would just find exhausting.

And to be clear, companies do have their own unique cultures, and it often does make sense to screen for people who will be happy there. But when the last two hires both left after a few weeks and cited the culture as their reason, you do need to take another look at whether this is the culture you should be protecting and preserving, and whether it’s serving your organization’s goals (like hiring and retaining the people you want to hire and retain) or whether it would benefit from some revisions. That does not mean “rebuilding the team from scratch” — it could be that some fairly minor tweaks could have a big impact (as a start, get rid of the extra days off for people who correctly predict when other humans will die — the fact that the death pool has official rewards for participating is a problem).

Your boss also might talk to the people who don’t generally join the group at lunch to find out how they’re experiencing the culture, what their take on the office’s inclusivity is, and how comfortable they think the office might be to new hires who have a different sense of humor or different interests — not because it’s a problem not to join everyone at lunch (it’s definitely not) but to make sure she’s hearing the perspectives of people outside that core group.

Maybe there’s not even a significant problem to fix. Maybe those two recent hires who noped right out were outliers! But this is the first stuff your boss should be looking at with a critical eye while she’s assessing what happened. After that, she could think about things like sending finalist candidates out to lunch with a group of would-be coworkers, letting finalists talk one-on-one with people who would be their peers, and talking explicitly in the interview process about things that make the office’s culture unique, so that people get a clearer picture of what life is like there and can self-select-out if it’s not for them (although none of that is foolproof, since not everyone is great about assessing this kind of thing while they’re interviewing, particularly when they need a job). But it would be a mistake to skip over the first, more fundamental part.

Also, though, keep in mind: this is your boss’s to figure out, not yours! You don’t need to solve this just because you were the last person hired who didn’t immediately leave.

{ 374 comments }

{ 374 comments… read them below }

  1. Asloana*

    OP, one thing I didn’t always realize was that when we champion diversity as a strength – not just a moral and virtuous thing do, but because it truly means your team is better equipped to face a range of challenges, because you don’t all have the strengths and weaknesses – it means that some of the “in group fun” has to naturally die down a bit, by definition. You have to make space for humorless people (who will also be the first to pick up that typo everyone else totally missed, or point to a compliance hole you’ve all been overlooking), people who don’t get your pop culture references, people you might not pick to go get a beer with, people who don’t want to join the softball team, etc.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I agree. OP, you have twice asked about how you can find the right person to fit your culture. I see quite the opposite. You need to fix your culture so you can find the right people.

      Let me explain. Your group is so committed to being the “different” ones that you are clearly excluding others, if not actively turning them off. The problem is not that you are explaining this poorly; it’s that your culture is EXTREMELY exclusionary to others. That is why you asked the same question twice and you’re still getting the same answer.

      Take Alison at her (now twice-said) word. You have a big culture problem and a boss who is bad at her job. This is not yours to fix, but neither can you continue to ignore that this is a problem.

      1. Pineapple Colada*

        Agreed! I found myself thinking that this letter clearly parallels some others we’ve seen in the past, except with a nerdy flavor to it.

        It’s so easy to see that a culture fix is needed when someone writes this version: “We have a work hard, play hard culture, and we all just like to go drinking together after work! Nobody has to come, but if they do, they need to be comfortable understanding that we do talk about sports a lot and we are occasionally going to have conversations where we may be rating the bodies of our favorite cheerleaders. It’s all in good fun! How do we screen for someone who will fit in here?”

        I don’t see the OP’s workplace as that much different, except it’s Island-of-Misfit-Toys style.

        1. cat with an iphone*

          Absolutely this. And unless they’re completely isolated, I guarantee this team has a reputation around the office/professional field and that others don’t love or even avoid working with them. If I were a new hire and caught a whiff of that, I’d bolt to avoid guilt by association.

          2. Kay*

            I remember when this first ran thinking -OMG, can you imagine what sort of warped nonsense will come from working there? My boss will end up being the reference saying something horrible like “OP was such a great employee, even though she never did win the “Dead Celebrity” competition!” and tanking my future career.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          Agreed, except I think it’s more “morbid and bizarre” than “nerdy”.

          I’ve worked at some toxic places, and I don’t think management at any of them would have *tolerated* people betting on when someone was going to die, much less *officially encouraged it by giving paid days off to participants*. That’s actual WTF territory, and I would immediately check for the nearest exit, keeping in mind that it might be behind me.

          (OP, you are not responsible for fixing any of this! But it seems like you’ve been telling yourself that these things are fun/cool/okay, when you’re actually uncomfortable.)

          1. Pineapple Colada*

            Haha, true! Maybe “kooky” would have been a better choice of adjective. Certainly morbid and bizarre!

          2. EmmaPoet*

            Yes, as someone who has worked in several science libraries, I love nerdy workplaces because we could get into a lot of really interesting questions. But death pools and alien sex isn’t nerdy, and it’s going to put a lot of people off.

        5. Ellie*

          100% it’s a team of geeks. When OP mentioned the sex thing as really an alien thing and then doubled down on it, it was so, so cute that they thought that that made things any better. OP, there is a very large demographic of people who never, ever want to discuss anything sci-fi related. I say this as a huge sci fi fan and Trekie myself. It also doesn’t help that many of the great science fiction works of the last century go hand in hand with sexism – just see how many negative comments Star Trek Discovery got online due to its inclusive storylines. It will be a problem at some point, because your team has no filter. They even had to be warned to be careful of you during your first week!

          Listen to the people on this forum, OP. Your lack of diversity will eventually come back to bite you. At some point they’ll be a fantastic applicant who could do so much good for your team, and they’re going to self select out because of the weirdness. The betting on dead people bit is really very bad. It would breed resentment anywhere where I worked.

          But none of this is your problem to solve, OP. Frankly, I’d just tell your manager to have a look online at how to attract diverse teams and how to avoid groupthink. The tools are out there, if they’re serious about fixing this. This isn’t your problem to solve.

          1. Annie E. Mouse*

            The warning to be careful during OP’s first week is the biggest glaring red flag to me. The boss knows the team’s behavior is problematic. Instead of saying “behave while you are here because this is a place of business and all employees should feel comfortable,” it’s “behave for a week when a new hire joins so they don’t immediately realize what they’ve walked into.”

        6. MBK*

          It’s like going to the doctor and asking how to improve your health without giving up your all pizza/no exercise lifestyle.

          1. Gumby*

            “… more the sort of thirty-nine-year-old whose daily consumption of cheese and carbohydrates was more likely to be classified medically as a cry for help rather than a diet.” (Fredrik Backman, Anxious People, which really tickled my funny bone but also leans a little to the morbid in places)

    2. Lord Cheezhead*

      Well said! I think often when businesses go for “diversity”, the team LOOKS diverse to where an outsider wouldn’t be like “oh, all the managers are White males”…but if the people all share the same way of thinking, the same personality traits, same working style, then it’s very superficial diversity, but not truly inclusive. Same thing when there are insiders and outsiders. Admittedly, though, there is a fine line between culture fit and homogeneity.
      Alison has mentioned several times in other letters (usually about discrimination) that when someone isn’t included at lunch or doesn’t feel welcome at group activities, it can hurt their career. It reduces their visibility to the team, it can cost them networking opportunities, etc.
      Just as we wouldn’t want someone to miss out on a promotion because they’re a woman who wasn’t invited to Guys Night Out, you also don’t want people being excluded because they’re uncomfortable talking about celebrity deaths at lunch.

    3. WeirdChemist*

      Yep. When I was in grad school, I worked in a lab that was very “close” and “fun”. On the surface that seemed great, but in reality it was extremely clique-y and anyone not in the “in group”, there was exclusion, bullying, etc. Requirements for being in the “in group” was things like getting hammered every Friday at the bar (if you didn’t go you were bullied, if you tried to stop at one drink you were peer pressured), going to weekend parties that included keg stands, and going out to lunch once a week (and if you didn’t any of the weeks you were bullied about it). The “in group” was very collaborative with each other, but you were basically on your own if you weren’t a part of it.
      Luckily, because it was a lab staffed entirely by grad students, there was turnover every 5-6 years, so it was easier to change the culture. Me and one of my fellow grad students in the lab worked hard to change the culture to one that was more inclusive. Friday drinks became just having a beer or too if you wanted, or just hang out and don’t drink, or if you don’t want to go then that’s fine enjoy your weekend! Weekend events became rarer, and usually didn’t involve drinking. Weekly lunches became fully optional, and we switched some of them to bringing external food back so that people who didn’t want to buy food could still participate.
      The overall culture became much more inclusive and positive. However, the prof in charge (he did not attend any of these bar/lunch/weekend events and was pretty oblivious to the bullying) kept lamenting that the lab didn’t seem as “close” anymore. C’est la vie!

      1. Cafe au Lait*

        I also noticed the “in-group” aspect of OP’s view. Every community will have its own micro-subgroups. The goal is for the subgroups to weave in and out with each other, and none are consistently dominant.

        If one group is consistently dominant in your workplace, then it’s worth giving a hard look at to why that’s happening.

      2. Nightengale*

        When I was interviewing a residency programs, several of them brought up as a feature that everyone goes out on Friday night for drinks together. (Except presumably whoever was still on call at the hospital those nights?) I asked about people who didn’t go and the question just – didn’t register. How could such a person exist? Based on prior experiences, this supposed positive feature was terrifying and off-putting to me. Would I be ostracized in actual work situations?

        The program where I ended up at had a group who went drinking regularly. And some people who didn’t do anything social ever. And some people like me who went to a few special events such as a baby shower or Halloween party now and again. For me, it was a huge feature that whether or not you went drinking together on Friday night had no impact on your ability to work together on a team Monday morning.

    4. RIP Pillowfort*

      Thank you. Because this is exactly what I thought of when OP started trying to defend the conversations.

      They’re not allowing other people to exist in this space. They want them to fit the culture when, in reality, people are vastly different. Your culture has to have space for them in it. And that means toning down the rough parts.

      1. Dawn, higher ed*

        I think this might come from the OP’s position as someone new to the group who has been put in the position of providing advice about how to allow the dynamic to continue. In a sense, they’re being asked to “defend” the culture by their boss.

        1. Lizbot30316*

          I get the feeling OP really gets a kick out of all this and wants it to continue themselves. (I’ve assumed a “he” all along but maybe not.) I can see a newer hire, perhaps on the young side, having insufficient experience and exposure to norms to understand what they’re missing from the workplace when they have to try so hard to explain that it’s “actually” not THAT unprofessional. (“I know it sounds bad, but the vibe of the conversation was more…”)

          Great AAM advice, in one ear and out the other. OP needs a new social outlet.

    5. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      I recall a study that people most enjoy being in workplaces where everyone is exactly like them. But for work it produced workplaces full of happy employees who all miss the compliance hole in lockstep, because those outsiders who thought about things differently didn’t last. (Shades of the exclusive team/beer run manager.)

      A workplace that was better at producing work tried to have a range of different people offering different perspectives and different strengths and blind spots. And yes, this probably means the overlap in the middle where people socialize at work is blander. Like your office movie option should be a popular PG movie, not horror or raunch or mocking.

      1. metadata minion*

        This is I think another reason why smaller businesses can be either particularly terrible or particularly good. In a large enough company, you can have the group of people who go out drinking on Fridays, and the group who are always knitting during lunch, and the ones who talk about their kids… but if it’s a team of seven people, it’s really easy to end up with five close friends and two people on the sidelines.

        1. Lacey*

          Yes. I worked in a company with 5 other people. 4 of them went to the same church and had for years. There’s nothing wrong about that. But it did make it hard to work there, especially since it was a niche kind of church with a very specific culture.

          That said – I stayed a long time and part of why I staid was that they did their best to ameliorate the situation and include me and the other outlier.

          And, because of that, the company grew to have more diversity and that made it stonger over all.

        2. Technically Australien*

          My experience with larger companies is that even with the best accommodations and diversity efforts there’s still a very rigid set of expectations. Even when some people say those expectations are flexible, at best you’re getting a deviant microculture within the larger pattern. Charitably, it’s a determined mediocrity.

          Smaller companies have higher highs and lower lows, but on the whole it’s easier to make exceptions to the rules. I’ve got a fair bit of experience with talking to the company owner(s) and getting changes made. Sure, sometimes the change is “can you two stop yelling at each other in meetings, the whole office can hear it”, but more often it’s “when you interrupt me I lose track of what I was doing, and it takes 30-90 minutes to get back to where I was. Please email when it’s not urgent” and the owner goes “ok, I’ll only do that when I really need to”. But as often they don’t have to be asked, they see me ride a bicycle to the job interview and either reject me on the spot or just assume that I always arrive by bicycle :)

          Done well that supports a diverse office without really trying. Of course Rosa leaves at 2:30pm to pick up her kids from school then works 7pm-9pm, that’s what she needs to do. And Stefan is always testy during Ramadan, you would be too if you hadn’t eaten all day. Etc.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        Thank you for this, it’s given me some ways to think about my own workplace (and maybe start nudging towards change)

    6. Thegreatprevaricator*

      I love this explanation and I think it explains well why the culture is a problem and should be considered more fully. The culture is exclusionary and rather than encourage diversity of thought, the manager is looking to find people who think the same way. I’m not in management or Hr, but I have seen how having similar thinkers can limit innovation and best practice.

      I think a further sign the culture is a problem is the approach taken by the manager. I can well imagine that reading the comments section on the previous post must have been challenging, but it isn’t the letter writer’s job to defend the culture or really to advise management on how to retain people. Management is essentially asking the OP to tell them that they aren’t the problem. The update confirms that this workplace has a culture problem. I don’t expect the workplace will change, but I do hope the LW has helpful insight into why people might find this a culture problem and why, as they move through their career.

    7. Not Everyone Can Wear Sandwiches*

      Even more generally: you need a workplace where people with other obligations will thrive. Whether that’s parents, people who are too old for shennanigans TM, or people who don’t gamble even if it’s not for money. (Though the celebrity death pool is certainly more morbid than awarding a prize to someone for picking this year’s world series champions etc.)

      This does not mean that the cardboard friend has to go away, or that you can’t have a fantasy football league, but it has to be less of a formal part of the workplace. A break and not part of the established scope of work.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        One thing you made me think about: a couple of my Muslim students wouldn’t even take part in a school raffle due to a religious prohibition on gambling. So it’s possible that regular betting might make people of some religions feel uncomfortable too.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          There are a lot of people who object to gambling for non-religious reasons, too.

          I was irritated when I started my job to get multiple invitations join a group of coworkers that pools their money to buy lottery tickets every week. It seems so detrimental to my happiness to spend money and time fantasizing what I would do with money I don’t have, rather than appreciating everything that I do.

    8. JustaTech*

      A small side note: at my last job the person who was most likely to spot the typos, math errors and compliance issues was *also* the person most likely to say something inapproporiate. Like, it took years of coaching on my part to get her to exchange “fat heads” for “fat cats” and then down to “big wigs” when talking about upper managment (because she would have said that to their faces). Or to stop making a full-body gesture when using the phrase “remove your asshats”. (At least, in meetings. In the lab, whatever.)

      Humanity is a rich tapestry.

      1. KitKat*

        Yeah I was going to say – our compliance guy is pretty funny and happy to cut loose over a few cocktails!

    9. Usoki*

      Your point about “inclusive is also about petsonalities and not just outward traits” is huge. As someone with peer-reviewed AuDHD, this place sounds great. But it also means that you’re going to have a lot of people who think along the same rails of thought– and of it were me, that could mean anything from “hyper-focused on small details while the deadlines go whizzing past” to “crams in a lot of value adds but forgets the original goal”. I’m great as part of a team, but if I had to work with five clones of myself it would be a hot mess.

      Possibly I am reading too far into it, but I think OP is bristling because we’re reading into the literal words they use and not the vibes that are harder to describe. I don’t think the lunch convos start out as lewd or morbid, or that people are intentionally trying to steer the convo in that direction. I do think that people start with a premise, more people join in with what ifs and odd thoughts, and because no one has a strong filter about keeping the topics appropriate– eventually they’re talking about xenobiology sensations or how the world would be different if X politician suddenly disappeared. And no one involved bats an eye because they were there for the convo’s full evolution. But that doesn’t mean the convo was okay. And everyone must know that, on some level, if “at least we’re far away from HR” is a common joke.

      OP seems to be in an office culture with a mantra of “I did not intend to cause offense, therefore nothing I do is offensive.” And unfortunately, that simply isn’t true. Talking about how whether or not aliens would have a sense of touch or taste seems fine. Talking about alien sex is a step too far for the office, based on social norms- even if no one present objected.

      I am sure that it true in a literal sense that the people who don’t attend lunch are not being punished. But I am very curious as to how they perceive it. I have to wonder how many are just smiling and nodding at their coworkers’ antics and counting down until the day ends.

      1. Dawn, higher ed*

        I think the comments about HR could indicate that the group sees HR as unhelpful, critical, and wrong about what workplace conversations should be like. This is reasonable (though not correct in this case) as HR is there to protect the company and help employees is incidental.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          In context, I read it as “HR would shut down our conversations/traditions as inappropriate for the workplace”, which seems like an accurate assessment. Since they’re continuing the conversations/traditions, I think they see HR less as “wrong/unhelpful” and more as an authority figure enforcing rules they don’t wanna follow.

    10. Smithy*

      I think this is really well put.

      I joined one team that clearly had an “in-group”, where a number of people were very close friends. And while none of the conversation topics or external events were all that notable, the difference in closeness was very clear. Where it was most visible is that when folks who were part of the in-group would go on vacation, their desks would be “pranked” (i.e. covered in post-it notes, or similar). But the longer you were on the team, it was clear that this also impacted how work assignments and promotions also followed.

      So no, I didn’t want to come back from vacation and necessarily see my desk covered in post-its – but I did want those better assignments. I did want to be promoted. And when that wasn’t happening, and you’d see the social group aspects pop up in other aspects, then that would be more infuriating.

    11. Lacey*

      This is such a good point! Often people who don’t fit a particular small company culture provide a benefit because they don’t fit.

      They have other strengths and insights that are helpful.

      That’s not always true, of course, but when it isn’t it’s going to be in more boring ways. Like, a person who enjoys short quick projects – is probably going to find themselves a bad fit for a company that has longer term projects. Or a person hating telework, in an entirely remote company.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        This reminds me of one time in a staff meeting when we were put into teams for something or other and I was on a team with none of my friends and with people I don’t usually have much to do with and you know what? We worked brilliantly because we were such different people that we all had different strengths and weaknesses. If I were with my friends…well, quite frankly, we all share a lot of the same interests and working styles and there are some areas like what sports teams the school has and how they are doing, that we would know nothing about.

    12. Heffalump*

      Interesting that you conflate detail orientation (ability to pick up on typos) with humorlessness. I’m very good at finding typos. Some years ago a friend lost it on me and said, “Enough with the Jeffrey Dahmer jokes already!” (I wrote about this in more detail on AAM in the last 2 or 3 years.) I pulled back on the really dark humor, but I’m not humorless.

    13. Heffalump*

      If the original flesh-and-blood Robert retired, then he was decades older than the OP and the coworkers who share his/her sense of humor. Presumably some other employees are likewise.

      If the company can afford to give the death pool winners a day of PTO on a regular basis, they must be doing very well financially.

  2. Olive*

    “whether extraterrestrials would experience pleasure…”

    This conversation with coworkers gives me more ick than alien genitals.

    “usually more “I cannot believe this person is still alive”…”
    Oh no.

    “the “scandals” people talk about are usually things like cheating, wearing something provocative…”
    OH NO.

    I didn’t see this kind of office culture as a problem when I was younger and less mature, because I wasn’t thinking about all the people it was excluding. With experience and distance, I can see how unhealthy it was.

    I don’t believe that no one in an office can be friends. But where I’ve seen this kind of behavior most often is when people have very poor boundaries between personal and professional life.

    1. That Paralegal*

      Right there with you on those responses. Nothing in the explanation made it better.

      1. Eden*

        The casual rooting for death for fictional characters and real people is actually much worse than the original letter.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          I’m 100% OK with rooting for the death of fictional characters. Because they’re not real. But I also limit that to discussing a book/show with someone and commiserating over hating a character–it’s totally fine if you’re both fans of a horror movie and one of you says “Oh, and I thought Person A was actively stupid about Horror Movie Threat, I just wanted it to take them down by 25′ in”. Because it’s not real!! The movie is fiction and it’s fine to hate someone in it! Maybe don’t make this the focus of every discussion about a book/show/movie, but if you had that reaction, it’s fine to talk about it!
          However, to say “OMG I cannot believe that Rita Moreno is still alive, I bet she dies by June of this year” is not OK. Rita Moreno is a real person, and we do not bet on such.

          1. Olive*

            I’m ok with it in theory, but in reality, I’ve too often seen it be an outlet for someone’s misogyny or personal issues where they tangibly hate female characters.

            I have a personal tendency to get too intense over opinions and part of professionalism IMO is toning down my opinions. Mentioning I don’t like a character is fine, but monologuing about it with a lot of emotion isn’t work appropriate.

            1. Glitsy Gus*

              I get what you’re saying, but there is a big difference between Mitch always wanting the last girl to get bumped off and saying, “dude, you go down in that basement when the power has clearly been cut? Not sure what you thought would happen.”

        2. Audogs*

          Agree. When I read both letters I remembered how I came to realize that gossip and wild speculation about co-workers or family members was so corrosive, like rust. It may have started “innocently”, but as it carried on it was only negative.

      2. Emma*

        100%. As I read this, I thought about how aliens experiencing pleasure was not something I would ever hear discussed at my work, and I’m really glad about that!

        It’s just not professional and not what I would consider workplace appropriate. It gives me the ick.

        1. wendelenn*

          Plus she’s on my “They’re in their 90s and I hope they make it to 100!” list, along with William Shatner, Julie Andrews, Carol Burnett. . .

          1. wendelenn*

            Oops, nesting fail. This was a response to AngryOctopus’ post mentioning Rita Moreno!

          2. Heffalump*

            Sophia Loren, Willie Nelson, Mel Brooks. Dick Van Dyke has already made it to 100.

      3. Heart&Vine*

        I was shaking my head too! Wishing for fictional people to d1e or for politicians to “disappear” is not much better than betting on real-life celebrity de@ths! I have a delightful morbid streak myself and would probably get along well with this group, but when you have these discussions in a professional environment, things can take a hard left fairly easily.

        What if someone only lists women or people of color on their “next to d1e” list? What if someone starts to talk about how they wish every progressive politician who supports LGBTQ rights would disappear? You may think you work in a mutually-fused organization where everyone has the same values, but that would be foolish. These topics are an extremely slippery slope and what starts as light-hearted “what if” discussion can turn into an HR nightmare with no effort at all!

        I’m not advocating for every workplace to be stuffy and uptight, but surely there is a middle ground here that would help people feel relaxed at work but not so relaxed that they think nothing of excitedly talking about death, politics, religion, s3x, etc. at the lunch table.

        “How do we find the right candidates who’ll fit our culture?” isn’t as important as asking “How to we adjust our culture to be welcoming to the best people for the job?”.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          There doesn’t have to be disagreement or for it to be a progressive politician for it to be an HR nightmare. Wishing for a politician’s death *is not an okay conversation for work*, even if you and your coworkers all share the same politics. A lunch conversation with coworkers outside the workplace is still “at work” (and might be worse, if someone overhears or records you).

          Also, marveling how weird it is that an old person “isn’t dead yet” *is not an okay conversation for work*. How would a 76-year-old new hire feel about joining your team? What about someone whose parent or grandparent is still alive at 98, and who is hoping for one or two more good years?

          1. Tom*

            As someone whose grandmother is over one hundred, and hoping that she lives long enough to see me married and get her daughter a grandchild…I would not take it amiss in the least, because I’m familiar with concepts like “average life expectancy,” and regard death as an inevitable part of life that there is no point in fearing.

      4. Starbuck*

        Yeah as someone who could see my friend group going on a tangent in a similar direction, there’s nothing inherently that wrong with the convos…. but I absolutely uninterested in these topics at work with coworkers because it is not the vibe at all! The boundaries of friendship are VERY different.

    2. CityMouse*

      I agree. None of OP’s attempts to lessen this actually really came across as such. This come across as a bit of the frat type culture you can experience at certain workplaces.

    3. Snarkus Aurelius*

      And I strongly suspect the “wearing something provocative” largely refers to a *specific* demographic.

    4. morethantired*

      yeah, LW is so used to all this they don’t see how explaining it makes it worse. LW — you all can still talk about this stuff, but take it someplace AFTER WORK! Or start a group text and keep it there! It’s great to be friends with your coworkers but you have to know that finding the right people for the job means working with people who you can be *friendly* with but who are you not *friends* with. Keep cardboard Robert but the boundary pushing conversations need to be taken elsewhere.

    5. No Diet Coke*

      The additional context doesn’t make the work environment sound better, in fact I’m even more inclined to say it sounds like an absolutely awful place to work. I like edgy humor, but at home. With family. Not with coworkers. This sounds like one of those “we’re all like family here” workplaces. No thank you. I just want to get my job done without all this ridiculous chitchat swirling around me.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      “Oh but we’re not just inappropriate about sex and death! We also cross boundaries about politics!” Nottttt the solid defense you think it is lol

      And yeah, the alien thing is so disturbing to me because it’s essentially “are humans the only creatures that feel?” I would… question the empathy of this group, for a lot of reasons.

      1. Not Everyone Can Wear Sandwiches*

        Just from a purely biological standpoint: you don’t get a surviving complex organism without at least aversion and reward, i.e. pleasure and pain.

        So I question the scientific literacy of the group as a whole, but that’s not relevant to the workplace, probably.

        1. Andrew*

          You’re not wrong, but that kind of discussion still has no business (pun intended) being workplace lunchroom banter.

    7. brjeau*

      Tbh “wearing something provocative” really jumped out at me that for all the self-conscious edginess in most of the examples, these coworkers also think grocery checkout tabloid-style sexism is an interesting topic.

    8. glib_result*

      Yeah, I found the explanation of the betting pool to be particularly tone-deaf. When your job gives out a perk because a famous figure died, that’s a problem. It’s weird to me to think the problem has anything to do with whether people *like* that person or not. The problem is that the job is giving out perks because someone died.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Except it’s actually worse than that. It would be really odd (and tone-deaf) if the manager said, “Everyone gets a day off because Ray Anthony died!” but at least that would be equitable.

        Instead, management is giving out a valuable perk (an entire day of PTO!) *only* to people who feel comfortable gambling on and “winning” when another human being dies. Anyone who is uncomfortable profiting from someone’s death, like LW, is excluded from the perk.

    9. Kay*

      I agree that the letter increasingly plowed through -please just hand over the shovel- territory. I couldn’t figure out if it was MORE disappointing reading the OP say “I understand this is all bad!” when they sadly did not.

    10. Glitsy Gus*

      Yeah, you summed it up pretty well here.

      Work doesn’t have to be a 100% boring, no personality zone. Robert sounds like a fun part of the team! I really think he’s the best thing you have going. Though a quarterly hunt may be better than monthly.

      But this sounds very cliquey. The whole, “there’s a reason they keep us so far from HR! Haha!” is what tipped me off there. I doesn’t even need to be talking about sex or that kind of inappropriate stuff. “Did you see Bjork’s dress at the Oscars?!” is fine, 30 minutes about who’s dress is the most slutty is not. But constant banter or in-jokes during lunch can feel just as exclusionary. You say it isn’t obligatory, but I would ask the folks that don’t join very often if they do ever feel left out, or like they are going against the grain. That would be telling.

      What is standing out to me is that this feeling of ‘we’re the “cool kids”‘ coming through that I think may be the problem. I’ve been on that team; it was fun for a while, but overall it got old. If someone joined that team that wasn’t interested in that vibe, especially if they dealt with it before, they may decide they aren’t interested. Especially if they get another offer from a place that doesn’t have that going on.

      I actually think Allison’s advice is great, it was good for her to ask you, but she should be checking in with multiple members of the team, especially the folks that don’t opt in to most of the social stuff.

    11. Tio*

      I mean, OP came in and was told that basically there are a bunch of lawsuits waiting to happen with this team. They came back and said “But it’s not THAT bad, really, here are some more details.”

      OP, the details don’t change it. This is a bad culture. What you think you’re asking for is “How do we find people like us?” What you’re really asking for, for those of us outside of the situation, is “How do I screen out people who aren’t like us, despite the fact that the people here are doing bad things?”

      OP, I think you really need to sit with the version of the question we’re throwing back at you, because it’s a problem. You need to understand that when there is such a large, negative reaction to a situation, it is very possible that you are the frog being boiled and need to reevaluate from a different angle than the one you’ve grown accustomed to.

  3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    Don’t get me wrong – the world is better with some weirdness and whimsy in it. But it sounds like there is a hard core of OPs coworkers who have doubled down on it so far that they’ve become overbearing and insufferable.

    I don’t want lunch to be a live-action niche Reddit forum every single day, and neither do a lot of other people. Especially if it’s the same narrow clique always choosing the topics.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Right, exactly. This sounds exhausting.

      “Some people never have lunch with the team, and that is completely fine.”

      ^ This stood out to me from the letter. Because it’s fine if they’re choosing that for personal reasons like they want to spend their lunch catching up on social media or whatever. It’s not fine if they’re avoiding this environment because it’s offputting or unwelcoming. I don’t like how casually that’s being shrugged off.

      1. Antilles*

        To be fair to OP, I read that statement as indicating that people are allowed to opt out; there’s no forcing people to participate or (overt) punishment for eating lunch by yourself.
        But I agree that if Boss is concerned about the team culture, the boss should certainly be checking why they’re opting out.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          This. Because certainly you’ll have some people who say “I eat earlier” or “I don’t do lunch, I prefer to snack at my desk through the day” or “I prefer to read while I eat my lunch”. But you’re probably also going to have some “Oh, the conversation topics are weird” or “I don’t like that they’re always talking about what old celebrity is going to die next or that some pop star wore something they thought was inappropriate”. And those last ones matter to establishing culture.

          1. HonorBox*

            What you really need to think about are the folks who say “I don’t do lunch” or “I need to catch up on some things while I eat my sandwich” because they don’t want to highlight the real fact that they’re opting out of lunch with the group is because of the topics.

      2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Yeah, that hit me as:
        “and it’s fine [with those of us who have these conversations and activities because we still like them and work with them.]”
        and not
        “and it’s fine [because they don’t have lunch in the office, so they don’t feel excluded, they are choosing to be somewhere else no matter what we do].
        There’s a difference.

      3. Lost academic*

        “I don’t want lunch to be a live-action niche Reddit forum every single day, and neither do a lot of other people.”

        What a perfect encapsulation of the problem! which is good because I feel like OP more than doubled down on it with the response….

        The line between work culture and social culture is movable and blurry but OP…. it’s really far behind you, period .

    2. That Paralegal*

      That is the PERFECT description of this kind of conversation. “niche Reddit forum”

      I will bet dollars to donuts they have had multiple “who would win in a fight, [this superhero] or [that monster] or Chuck Norris” conversations, and probably think they are being hilarious and not exhausting. That’s the vibe they are giving.

      1. RIP Pillowfort*

        At this point I would take the superhero discussions. The morbid betting pool is sending me because WTF ya’ll?

        I love weird stuff and I’m a goth kid deep down in my bones, but I know very well you have to meet the social common denominator on the acceptable level of weirdness at work.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          This! I’m not a prude. I love these conversations.

          And I understand they alienate others. So not at work.

          1. NotBatman*

            Agreed! I’ve been known to joke about celebrities dying, *and* I’d never do it at work *and* if I worked in an office where I heard such jokes every week then I’d be one of the people quitting ASAP.

        2. Mockingjay*

          “social common denominator”

          Please put this on a plaque.

          I mean, it’s WORK. Not play, not fun, not entertainment. Generally companies hire to fit skill and business needs, which means you get a cross-section of people – personalities – on the team. Some outgoing, some not, all with different personal lives and preferences and ick factors. Therefore you have to have a social common denominator of professional norms for everyone to get along enough to get the job done. The core of that commonality is a workplace environment that everyone feels comfortable to be present in, even if they never go out to lunch with the team or join random water cooler convos.

          Advice for OP: please take a good read of what we are saying here. Your boss is not a good manager and as Alison noted clearly, it is not your role to fix things. What you are seeing and participating in daily is NOT a professional environment.

        3. MaybeMossy*

          Yes, this.

          As a Total Wierdo, I love what most people call morbid, gross, etc. and I’m not about to change that for people. But we live in a Society and sometimes, ya gotta rein it in a little bit.

          1. Properlike*

            Same! My thought was that this seems to be a company of neurospicy folks with weak filters. I dig it, and I’ve worked in more than one place where this would be on the tamer side of things (creative fields.)

            So maybe these conversations should be part of a “knitting club” equivalent, and not the daily conversation.

          2. Starbuck*

            Same. Sure I’ll have weird convos with friends sometimes, but it is really not hard at all to turn it off at work.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      Here’s another thing – you don’t have to have an awkward conversation often for people to want to nope out of the culture.

      There’s a handful of topics that I am not interested in discussing at work. Anything sexual is one of them. Not even once, not even in a goofy manner. Zero times. If I hear a group talking about it once? OK, that’s weird, but anyone can sound weird out of context once. A second time? I am no longer socializing with that group during lunch/off time if I can avoid it, and if it’s happening in the office a lot, I will be doing my best to wear headphones and avoid talking to that coworker in any nonprofessional capacity.

    4. spiriferida*

      Yeah. I think the litmus test that the LW (and the managers) need to take into consideration isn’t just ‘is everyone in this room at the moment comfortable with this conversation’ – which it seems like the lunch regulars are – but ‘would any old coworker feel comfortable walking in/by while this conversation is happening?’ If the answer is regularly no to that second one… then these conversations probably need to become more a group chat thing.

      1. spiriferida*

        As a corollary, ‘feel comfortable’ doesn’t just mean that they wouldn’t be actively upset by the content, wrt the morbidity, sexual content, etc. It also means, generally, is it accessible to them, or do they have to be Very Online, or Very Into Show X, or Very 90s Kid, etc., to really get what’s being talked about?

        2. Guacamole Bob*

          This gets it exactly right. Coworkers are going to find shared interests and chat about them, and that’s fine! Sports, TV shows, their kids’ activities, whatever. But when a single theme dominates the group to this degree, it becomes very exclusionary and problematic. I would opt out of these team lunches in part because I just don’t pay attention to celebrity gossip and wouldn’t know a lot of the references, and probably wouldn’t have seen the horror movies they’re talking about. The morbid humor vibe would just cement that it was the right call to stay away.

          OP, how many people are on the team and how many participate in lunches? When the share of people who are part of a subculture gets too high, it becomes exclusionary. If 3 or 4 friends on a team of 20 wanted to talk about their pop culture related hobbies over lunch, it would probably be fine even if the conversations were weird. But when it’s, say, 8 or 9 out of 14, it takes over and makes it hard on the people who don’t participate.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            Yeah, it’s generally the rule that you don’t include more than half a group unless you are going to include everybody.

          3. Boring Mosasaurus*

            Yes, and I’m wondering how old these people are? They sound like early 20s and I’m well past the age where I find arguing about weird subreddit stuff amusing. I wonder how inclusive this team in ages as much as anything else.

        3. metadata minion*

          Though with that I think the reality check has to look at whether the topic comes up all the time. I don’t think it’s exclusionary for the breakroom to have the occasional lunch where everyone somehow ends up talking about early-80s cartoons or succulent gardening or whatever, so long as everyone else has an equal chance to have a Random Niche Interest Lunch some other day.

      2. unreliable narrator*

        Yes, any old coworker, or if for whatever reason that’s hard to envision in a concrete way – would your parent/older relative feel comfortable having lunch with your team? Would YOU feel comfortable having them there? That’s the level of conversation you should be striving for in a work environment.

      3. glib_result*

        The thing is, LW specifically states that they DO know that not any person walking by would feel comfortable. There is an “ongoing joke that there is probably a reason our room is physically as far from HR as possible.” They know that someone outside of their group would have an issue with their behavior, and their answer is to keep away from those people.

        1. Kay*

          Yes! When your group is effectively called a walking HR nightmare, it is your group that is the problem. The fact that OP just breezily throws that in without seeming to fully grasp the gravity of it is concerning. You don’t want to normalize being an HR problem – this is not a good thing..

      4. MigraineMonth*

        I feel like any *old* coworker, in particular, might find repeated conversations marveling about how certain older celebrities “aren’t dead yet” and betting on when they will kick the bucket to be particularly alienating.

      5. KateM*

        Group chat would probably go out of hand, too – they’d end up betting which of their older coworkers will die next.

  4. metadata minion*

    I can see why the cardboard cutout stood out as the most “ubiquitious” bit of weird, but to me with the additional context, that still feels like the most innocuous part of the office culture. Sure, there are some people who just really don’t like that kind of aggressive whimsy and they might be a bad culture fit. But otherwise while the cutout is *there*, it sounds like nobody’s obligated to interact with it, and most people probably get used to it after a few days even if they’re not going to say hi to “Robert” in the morning. It’s just odd and silly, not inappropriate, and wouldn’t make the average person uncomfortable.

    The death betting, the lunchtime conversations that get morbid (Since you haven’t mentioned it, I’m assuming you’re not in a profession like emergency medicine where this kind of gallows humor is a common coping strategy?), and anything else that would make people uncomfortable or offended rather than just confused is what your manager should be focused on.

    1. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

      The trend towards the morbid is really offputting to a lot of people. I don’t want to talk about death all the time — or even a lot of the time.

      OP, there’s a reason some people never eat lunch with the team. It’s most likely they don’t want to hear the topics trend towards the morbid on the regular. But they don’t want to be the ones who speak up and allegedly ruin it for everyone else. So they are off by themselves, not really being part of the team. The death pools are just another aspect of this — and making them voluntary doesn’t make them acceptable. Even Robert is an offshoot of this. Ya’all are having a cardboard cutout of a guy no longer there in a physical sense even if he is still very much alive at another job.

      I know you are just tasked with working through the problem with your manager — but this is what your manager needs to hear: the culture is the problem. There is an in group who sit around at lunch and discuss morbid things and bet on people’s death and there’s an out group who don’t participate. New hires are picking up on this and not wanting to be in the in group because its goth high schoolers all over again but not wanting to feel left out either. So they go elsewhere completely.

      1. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

        There is an in group who sit around at lunch and discuss morbid things and bet on people’s death and there’s an out group who don’t participate.

        THIS! It’s not that it’s fine that people don’t participate, they’re noping out of what a subgroup has decided that they need to participate IN.

      2. B’Elanna*

        Yeah, the fact that Robert was a real person who they knew personally makes that less innocuous to me than it might otherwise be. Like, if your silly cutout was C-3PO or even a public figure like, I dunno, Keanu Reeves, I wouldn’t bat an eye.

        But Robert was a real coworker, and, critically, was considered weird for just getting work done in private. He has since been made an object (literally) of fun every day for what sounds like *years*. If I came into a working environment like that, I would wonder what foibles of mine would become a daily in-joke. If his not being around was a problem, that should have been brought up with a manager, not turned into an elaborate running joke. It produces a chilling effect on anyone who might stand out as different.

        1. CityMouse*

          I agree, Robert being a real person who got turned into a long term joke is by far the bigger red flag than if they just had a fictional character. It sends a message that you’ll become the butt of jokes if you don’t play along.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes, very much. I wouldn’t say they need to get rid of Robert otherwise, but given this context they should. It’s not okay that he’s based on a real person who purposely separated himself from the group.

          1. Andrew*

            Alison, this is a bit of a tangent, but are you familiar with the term “Chunnibyou”? It’s a Japanese word for exactly the kind of immature, and typically edgy-to-a-confrontational-degree, mindset a lot of this LW’s workplace seems stuck in.

            1. Freya*

              I came across this term a while ago, and it’s perfect for describing the kind of adult who acts like a young teenager with delusions of grandeur trying to stand out and just ends up being cringey in a way that makes you want to go talk to someone else, forever.

          2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

            OP, this is what I meant by being exclusionary. You are so immersed into this off-putting culture that you don’t see the who Robert cutout as a way of mocking someone who chose not to be a part of it. As a new employee, I would see Robert as at least a yellow flag that outsiders will be mocked.

        3. Bathyphysa Conifera*

          I wouldn’t be surprised if the people who left fast, did it with the thought that they wouldn’t have made enough of an impression to be turned into a running joke like Robert.

        4. Tulp Bloem*

          I think someone needs to secretly swap out the Robert cardboard cutout with one of Robert De Niro. Then maybe people wouldn’t be worried about being turned into a joke and maybe the former Robert can fade into obscurity.

          1. Smithy*

            I think this is a really good suggestion.

            I do think that inevitably part of changing this culture inevitably may include aspects of being “the no fun police”. And anything that can be done which still includes aspects of levity and humor, but directs it to something more mainstream and less in-jokey is a benefit.

            In one job, I worked on a project where I ended up with some merch connected with the artis Kaws. And if you’re not familiar, a big aspect is that his characters have x’s for eyes – which can give a somewhat cartoonish death look. This was truly cartoon merch I had because of a work assignment, and yet folks I worked with who were unconnected to the project found it a bit creepy. I get why it was ultimately the professional move to have it in a less visible part of my cubicle, but it was also a “less fun” move I made. Personally, I addressed this by getting something else fun to have in my cube, but broadly speaking finding ways to pivot that aren’t just telling people to stop is helpful.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I will point out that it isn’t LW’s job to shift the culture. It’s their manager’s job, and they should be willing to be “the No Fun Police” and tell people they can no longer win PTO by betting on people dying (!!).

              LW, whether you tell your manager that the culture is the problem or not should be based on what is best for *you*, not what is best for the manager/team. Only be frank with her if she has demonstrated in the past that she acts on feedback and doesn’t shoot the messenger.

              1. badgerdog*

                Yes, this. We can analyse the culture problems at this workplace all day long, but that doesn’t mean it’s LW’s job to take all our many, many thoughts back to her office and try to make them happen. She’s not management and she’s not even been there very long, perhaps not long enough to gauge how they’re likely to respond to the new hire trying to disrupt a well-established set-up that the core group enjoys.

            2. Kaaaaawwwssss*

              I had a client who clearly spent lots of money becoming what I can only assume was the largest KAWS collector out there. If simply shown a photo of the place I would have guessed overcrowded single artist gallery exhibit, not office where humans work. Going there… was an experience. I found it funny on someone’s first visit the receptionist says to them “Don’t mind the disarray, we are in the process of moving” while the person’s eyes are wide and darting around at all the ogre sized sculptures and walls covered with corresponding likenesses.

          2. Glitsy Gus*

            Agreed! I will admit the part of the Robert story of him being a rather private coworker had slipped my mind. In theory the cardboard teammate is fun, the fact it is to kind of make fun of someone is not. Danny DeVito, Robert DeNero, or Han Solo could all be a great coworkers that don’t make anyone think of someone who used to work there in a weird light.

        5. cloudy*

          Yeah as someone who tends to keep to myself, I would have serious concerns about Robert. In the sense of “Did real Robert find it just as funny as everyone else? Was he in on the joke? Do I have to be afraid of becoming the next Robert if I’m not sociable enough in the way the team wants?”

          – If Robert loved this whole thing, that’s great. I love a silly little cardboard guy.

          – But if Robert wasn’t in on this joke / wasn’t enthusiastic about it, this is kind of scary in a way that’s evocative of childhood bullying.

          The framing around Robert is vitally important. Is everyone laughing with real Robert? Or are they laughing at him? If the former, be sure to lead with his seal of approval. If the latter, the tradition needs to be replaced and/or discontinued. You don’t want to be a workplace that continues to bully former employees for years after they’re gone.

          1. cloudy*

            If you do want to do further self-reflection into the Robert issue and try to figure out whether it is being read as bullying by your new hires, I would ask questions like this:

            – Is anyone in the department still in contact with Robert? Does he still share a friendly connection with the current team? This could be things like: some team members going to get coffee with him once a year, exchanging the occasional email, providing “how is Robert doing” updates to the group in a warm way, giving him updates on how his box self is getting on.

            – Do you share fond memories of Robert as well, or is it just the story about how he was turned into a box? Do people seem to genuinely like and respect real Robert? Do they talk about things Robert was good at? Positive stories from their interactions with him over the years he worked there?

            – Has Robert explicitly said that he likes the box-self? Did he actively contribute to box Robert shenanigans?

            The goal is essentially to figure out if you have a friendly, collegial relationship with the person who is being poked fun of. This is the big difference between friendly ribbing vs bullying someone who is not part of the group.

            If any one of these is a no, I’d strongly encourage scrapping the tradition or replacing it with something not based on a real person.

        6. metadata minion*

          Ohh, right, I completely forgot about this from the first letter and yeah, I take back my argument that Robert is harmless quirkiness. Having a cutout of a *former coworker* is the exclusionary kind of weird.

        7. Kimmy Schmidt*

          I totally missed this important piece of context, thank you for pointing it out.

        8. Dame Marjorie "Maude" Chardin*

          Especially since the reason the cutout was created in the first place was that Robert was never around to interact with people. Maybe he was made uncomfortable by the sex-n-death talk and so kept to himself and just did his work. And now, years after he’s left, he’s still being mocked for it. It gives lie to “Sure, anyone can opt out, no problem.”

        9. Chirpy*

          Ooh, I didn’t catch that Robert was a real person when I commented previously that my workplace had its own “Roberta”. Our Roberta was a cardboard cutout that was originally part of a promotional/advertising thing, not ever a real person. Turning a former coworker into an effigy like that is *super weird*!

      3. Myrin*

        To be fair regarding the “some people never eat lunch with the team” thing, I never eat with the group that’s loosely formed as lunch buddies either but that’s because I eat over an hour later than they do; it has nothing to do with them but rather with the fact that because of stomach issues, I need to eat in somewhat regular intervals and their normal lunch time is simply too early for that.

        Another coworker doesn’t join them, either, but that’s because she eats lunch with her dad in the retirement home next door, and yet another person likes using her lunchtime for some light exercise and as such doesn’t participate in the group lunches, either.

        Now obviously there’s no way for me to tell whether the people not joining the lunches in the letter do so because of their (the lunches’) nature or because of something like what I mention above. But I wanted to bring that up nonetheless because several of the comments here (and to the original letter as well) seem to be very focused on that aspect without apparently taking into account that there could be numerous reasons people don’t participate which have nothing at all to do with “not joining” but rather with “doing something else”.

        1. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

          This is highly possible. But I am willing to bet dollars to donuts there is an overlap between the people who never eat lunch with the group and don’t participate in the betting pool. They probably also avoid participating in the Hunt the Robert game on Friday.

          The fact all of this is voluntary makes it very easy to make excuses for why some people don’t participate. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. But a good manager looks out for consistency in non-participation and changes things up so everyone gets something they can participate in occasionally. This department is no different than if all the activities were ziplining and hiking and all the discussions were about ziplining and hiking.

          1. mreasy*

            whoops! you already said what I said and used the same folksy expression! were you ALSO thinking about getting a donut this morning? lol

        2. mreasy*

          My colleagues have totally fun and inclusive conversations over lunch. I just prefer not to eat in a group. And possible that’s the case for a lot of OP’s coworkers… but dollars to donuts there are some who would like to eat in a group and would join if it weren’t for the topics of discussion/cliquishness.

          1. AngryOctopus*

            This. I mostly prefer to eat lunch both earlier than my team, and also to give myself a little recharge time with reading. However, if we plan a group lunch or someone comes to eat with me, I have zero problem with that, as our conversations are good. That is not the case with the group in question. A lot of people who might want to eat in the group will be put off by the group’s attitude and topics of discussion in OP’s office. This is what the boss should be looking at. It doesn’t matter if some people don’t join the group because they don’t want to do so. It does matter if there are people who would *like* to join the group but are put off by the discussion topics.

          2. Not Everyone Can Wear Sandwiches*

            Yeah. My work gets lunch together irregularly. We have talked about things like the bubonic plague over lunch before, but 1) it was appropriate to the work we do and 2) none of it was mean-spirited. Some of the activities OP reports are mean-spirited, i.e. the death pool, the exclusion of the original Robert.

      4. bird in the hand*

        I’m not a squeamish person by any means (and have had jobs that involved death and gross fluids) but I still wouldn’t want to hear morbid discussions while eating. The fact that people in LW’s office don’t seem to understand this very simple correlation is concerning.

    2. HQetc*

      Yeah, and it seems likely that, given that Robert is the most pervasive part of it, that it’s also the part folks would have seen while interviewing? If I’m wrong, please ignore, but if they saw Robert and people’s interactions with him/it during their interview, they are probably fine with that aspect of it, so it stands to reason that the other stuff would be the off-putting element.

      Also, I mentioned this on the last post, but I want to re-underline the point that some of these lunch topics seem to actually have some discriminatory elements lurking in them. Wearing something “provocative” feels gendered to me, and the betting pools being around people who have “been old forever” has an ageist tinge I don’t love (I say this as a person in my 30s who finds most jokes about old people and aging to be really saddening and kind of mean, as part of the broader societal habit of dismissing or infantilizing elderly people). I’m not trying to say I think your coworkers are all sexist, ageist jerks. Just that part of the reasons why work place lines are drawn relatively conservatively is because pushing people to feel they have to opt out of lunches to avoid dealing with topics that hit a particular way for them often had professional implications.

      Of course, to Alison’s point, this isn’t yours to fix, so maybe I’m feeding a fed horse in pointing it out. But if your manager is open to hearing it, it might be worth flagging. I could even imagine leaning into it in a way by having a weekly “normie” lunch or something. Like, people can still talk about whatever weird stuff sometimes, but there should be spaces for relationship building away from that. (This feels particularly true if, as you note, there isn’t much time for socializing outside these lunches.)

      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        Thank you for “feeding a fed horse”! Putting that one in my mental file cabinet alongside “feeding two birds with one scone” as a nonviolent metaphor.

    3. Artemesia*

      I thought the cardboard co-worker was fine as an office joke until I realized that they were ridiculing a former co-worker who was apparently tormented when he worked there. This is pretty monstrous.

  5. S*

    Also, all this stuff just doesn’t sound that funny or enjoyable. I’m actually a quite goofy person, but if I worked in a place with running in-jokes that are only funny in a “can you believe we’re still doing this?” kind of way, I think it would just get old. Allison hit on exactly the right word: exhausting.

  6. Madame Hardy*

    ” But when the last two hires both left after a few weeks and cited the culture as their reason, you do need to take another look at whether this is the culture you should be protecting and preserving, ”

    Nailed it. Thank you for saying this so clearly.

    1. LTR; FTP*

      Yup. I’ve worked in some offices that were flat out bonkers with the excessive drinking and inappropriate discussions (I’m talking about 10 hour long pub crawls with colleagues blackout drunk by the end of it, playing Cards Against Humanity over lunch, you name it) and in hindsight I can clearly see there was in an in-group and an out-group. The in-group members participated in the shenanigans and the out-group members never really stuck around for long. And anyone I saw hired in my time there was clearly vetted as a likely in-group type.

      It was fun when I was young, but in hindsight I am mortified that I participated in any of it.

    2. B. Mariner*

      I would also bet money (say, the equivalent of a paid day off) that these examples are symptoms of the real culture problem, such as coworkers being insensitive, not reading the room, making offensive comments and not caring who is upset (or alternatively getting very upset by the idea they upset someone and derailing), prioritizing “fun” over work, unreasonable workplace expectations, the fact that the newest coworker is being tasked with fixing the culture…I could keep going but you get the picture.

      To quote Reddit, “the Iranian yogurt is not the issue here”

  7. Genusalice*

    This is probably going to sound much harsher than I mean it to, but I wonder if part of the issue might be the fact that the coworkers who participate in these… antics… have cultivated a culture of “look how unique and kooky and not mainstream and professional we are!”

    Meaning, the issue isn’t so much around the weird lunch jokes and the cardboard dude, but more around the business version of “I’m not like other girls.” Because that is exhausting.

    1. 2 Cents*

      “We’re misfits and look how much!” (I’m saying this as someone who’s never felt like she’s fit in, but there’s a time and place and degree to which this is appropriate and this workplace sounds like it’s dialed to 11 at all times.)

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      Yes, it all feels very “edgy teens trying way too hard.” I remember when I was like 12 hanging out with a group of friends and 1 kid was making sex jokes, most of us were uncomfortably laughing and pretending to get it, and 1 kid left the table. That was when I realized oh, hey, maybe this isn’t a great topic and the one who left had the right idea. I just can’t get over LW and a whole office full of adults thinking “oh the people who leave quickly are just losers” or something and not “is there something wrong with our office culture?”

    3. Box of Rain*

      Yeah, the phrase that kept popping up in my mind was “Wow. Your workplace is SO STUCK UP and proper. Listen to the things WE do at MY workplace.” 100% giving “not like other girls” and “I’m not a regular mom; I’m a cool mom.”

    4. Unreal Sonia*

      These feel like the sort of people who used to run around shouting ‘SPORK!’

    5. Boring Mosasaurus*

      Yeah, the original letter made me think a bunch of teenagers had somehow been hired to run an office.

      1. Darrowby 2297*

        A part of me has been thinking of the letter writer whose life unraveled after she managed her cliquey, unprofessional, nasty staff into driving away the business’s star performer. She was definitely doing the “I’m not like the other managers” and was pretty dug in to the idea that work should be fun with your friends.

        At first she was really defiant about her poor attitude, but things got so bad that she was finally forced to see what the issues were. This place honestly sounds a lot like many places I’ve worked, because I’m in creative industries, but even I would find this exhausting and the Robert thing too based in cruelty to enjoy.

        I dunno. It seems like the manager could do a lot better here and OP should give this a little more scrutiny from a different perspective. Also, when you have to write such incredibly detailed and lengthy letters, that might be a sign that you’re trying too hard. It’s worth a really good look at all that you’ve said.

  8. MsM*

    Sometimes when people insist on answering the question you didn’t ask, it’s because it’s pretty clear from an outside perspective that why you’re not asking that question is part of the problem.

    1. Asloan*

      Yeah if I were OP I could totally imagine my response being like, “oh no, they’re STILL NOT GETTING IT, should I explain more?” but I don’t think my opinion has massively changed from the first letter. You don’t have to decide the culture is bad and a problem that you need to fix, but you might need to talk about ways you can create a healthier opt-in/opt-out community where different types of people are tolerated. Definitely don’t double down on needing to hire the exact right kind of nerds. Remember, your boss asked everyone else to tone it down and that helped you settle in. Follow that instinct, not the “but it’s fun in the in-group” feeling (which I totally sympathize with, it IS fun in the in-group, and most people in a clique don’t feel like they’re in a clique, but you have to more heavily weigh the experience of the outsiders in a workplace).

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I think my opinion hasn’t massively changed, but my advice has. My opinion remains “the culture is problematic”. But the advice before was “Danger Will Robinson, sexual harassment lawsuit on the horizon”. If that really was the one-off – it’s still a big problem and needs to definitely not happen again – but if it’s not consistent and pervasive, then the culture is still a problem, and not really worth retaining, which is different from going to the boss with Hello You Have a Giant Legal Liability On Your Hands. If that particular incident was one off, and quite a while ago, then it’s a significantly less pressing concern.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yes, though discussing the scandals of celebrities that wore “something provocative” or marveling that some celebrities have been “old forever” and are “not dead yet” makes me think there’s still some potential legal liability for a hostile workplace on gender and age classes.

          The group is making jokes about it being lucky HR isn’t close enough to know what they’re up to. The manager knows that what the in-group is doing is out of line and exclusionary, and instead of self-examining they’re asking LW for advice on how to keep getting away with it.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      This is where I landed as well. I would just dread having to go into work and socializing with these people, and would probably end up eating lunch in my car.

    2. WorkerDrone*

      This clarification makes this workplace actively sound even worse than it did in the first post.

    3. Mallory Janis Ian*

      “Your boss also might talk to the people who don’t generally join the group at lunch . . .”

      I agree with Alison that this is a conversation the boss should have with the people who aren’t joining the group at lunch, but it would be so . . . vulnerable a feeling to have the boss noticing and commenting on my perceived lack of fitting in with the rest of the group.

      This is what that kind of culture sets up that is problematic: There is a problematic in-group, and people having to feel as if *they* are in the out-group for not participating in ceaseless juvenile shenanigans. I don’t mind some shenanigans once in a while, but having it aggressively promoted all day, every day would be so tiresome.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, the boss has to do some groundwork first to make it safe for the employees to be honest. If she’s been turning a blind eye to this behavior for years, that’s going to take some vulnerability and a real commitment to turning things around.

        That goes for LW as well: unless your boss has acknowledged that she’s screwed up and allowed culture issues to fester, you shouldn’t risk being too honest with her about the need for culture changes. She has the power to make it safe to give feedback; if she hasn’t done that, you don’t owe her any.

  10. 2 Cents*

    I am a nerd — like would love an argument over the best Star Trek series and would find Robert *existing* funny. However, like Alison says, I would find the overall team culture exhausting and highly juvenile and if I had a problem with any aspect (the discussions, the activities) would find it isolating. So, yeah, I think your manager is a problem here in not encouraging a more open atmosphere. I’m not saying your team can’t have unique aspects, but it sounds like there is an “in” crowd and then there’s everyone else.

    1. Asloan*

      I actually think I’d like it – but that’s not the point! You don’t want to reject / be rejected by all the qualified people in this comment section saying it wouldn’t work for them and pick me instead – you want to pick and retain the best people for the work purposes of your business! Whether someone thinks this stuff is funny should be beside the point.

      1. EarlGrey*

        Yes! I want to plus-one the comment that this workplace does sound pretty fun to me – but the fact that it would be fun for a lot of people is NOT the point.

        (And more accurately I think i would enjoy these conversations and pranks and in-jokes with the right people at the right times…but the approach by your manager here including the official day off for the celebrity pool, and the way these things feel unavoidable in the office, do not give me confidence these are the right people or the right times.)

      2. Van Wilder*

        Yeah I think Asloan does a good job expressing the most important point, which is kind of getting lost in all the discussion.

        As a nerd myself, I get the appeal of laughing with other funny nerds, but this is really no better than the manager that wrote in years ago saying that their 40-something coworkers weren’t fitting in with their drunk rowdy 20-something team, and defended their desire to only hire people that fit the “culture.” (And then doubled down in the update.)

        2. Darrowby 2297*

          Oh thank you, thank you! I wrote above about this letter because I was worried I might be the only one thinking of her! I’m glad I’m not!

          1. Van Wilder*

            Yeah, now that I went back and read the second update, I feel bad. Hope she’s doing better now.

    2. Unicornia*

      Yeah, this strikes me as a standard Star Trek question (alien orgasm). There’s quite a lot of range in terms of how shocking one’s approach to the topic can be, from fairly mild to very blue.

      I’m just weirded out because my job intersects with asking and discussing questions about the history and future of niche science. Presumably, the conversation was blue enough to have been worth mentioning or it wouldn’t have been mentioned. But the key words “alien” and “pleasure” seem to, themselves, be tripping some people out, and that makes me a little disoriented from my admittedly niche position.

    4. Teapot Translator*

      I was coming here to say that I would find this situation isolating. I like finding like-minded people at work to make the work week better, so if my only contact with my close colleagues is these weird lunch conversations, I would not be happy and would look for another job.
      But also, hiring loners who will not want to join others for lunch is not a viable option either.

    5. happy red panda*

      Robert would be funny for a little while after he left but YEARS?! Ffs he needs to go. If I was brand new to the company and saw that the cutout was there for an employee *who hasn’t worked there since well before my time* I would be afraid to stay there for any amount of time. I wouldn’t want to be the butt of a joke that never ends, even after I’d leave.

      Has anyone checked in on the real Robert to see what he thinks of the cutout still there?

    6. Andrew*

      “Juvenile” is exactly the word for this behavior; as I’ve mentioned in a couple other threads, it brings to mind a Japanese term (“chunnibyou”) that was coined to refer to all sorts of adolescent-esque mindsets in people old enough to know better, but became specifically associated with the melodramatic types (and especially the performative-brooding-edgelord ones, usually with a side order of main character syndrome).

  11. VoPo*

    If I were managing there, I think I’d definitely start with the lunch situation. While it’s good that eating together is not expected and totally fine to opt out of, my worry would be people are opting out not because they don’t want to eat lunch with coworkers, but because they don’t feel like they fit in with the group that does eat lunch together. Lunch seems to be the most telling part of the culture.

    I kind of love the cardboard coworker.

  12. Pay no attention...*

    Honestly, if the cardboard coworker really is the problem with new hires, why keep it? Jokes get played out. When I was in college my apartment got ahold of a life-sized cardboard Shaq after a promo at a convenience store someone worked at ended. It was hilarious to have Shaq “hiding” in different places for a time — we all took photos — we invited people over (to witness him I guess), and then… it stopped being hilarious and we got rid of it. All of the other things are problems, but if you say they’re outliers then okay, they’re unlikely to be an ongoing problem… maybe. But if the OP and boss are convinced it’s Cardboard Robert, then throw a going away party for Cardboard Robert and the joke will eventually die off.

    1. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

      It’s not the cardboard coworker, though. It’s really not. It’s the lunch talk and the paid time off perk.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        Except we are meant to take OP’s at their word, and even if the cardboard person wouldn’t run YOU off, it is strange enough to run others off. As the OP stated everything else is avoidable. If I had other job options, it would be the unavoidable part of this work environment that would make me think about quitting.

        1. Andrew*

          No, we’re supposed to assume LWs are being HONEST. Saying “I think you might be overlooking something big” is a lot different from saying “ your nose is a mile long and your trousers just spontaneously ignited”!

        2. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

          I do keep forgetting that Robert is an ex-coworker, which ups the upsetting factor significantly.

          1. Kyrielle*

            Yes, this. I also wonder whether people *explain* that to the new hires or they just think there’s a cardboard guy named Robert for some unfathomable reason tho.

      2. B’Elanna*

        I think it might also be Robert, though. Robert was a real former coworker who became the butt of a running joke. That could easily be an unnerving thing to run into as a new employee.

        1. NotBatman*

          Oh man, that’s a good point. Because I used to work in an office with a cardboard cutout of a *current* employee — the guy found it hilarious when we’d include his cardboard copy in photos, and the cutout itself was something of an honor because it advertised our mentorship program by advertising his role in said program.

          From the original letter, none of that is true of cardboard!Robert. Sounds like it originated as a way of mocking an employee behind his back. For that matter, Robert sounds like a slacker rather than a terrible person. So like, if the new people are “meeting” Robert and wondering if they’re going to become the butt of the joke for the next decade, that could be the problem.

          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            from the original letter:
            No one ever knew where Robert was, and whenever someone needed him they couldn’t find him, but the work always appeared completed.

            1. Chickadee*

              I wonder if Robert stayed scarce and focused on his work because he was trying to avoid the office culture? It’s what I would do if I didn’t have the luxury of quitting.

              1. NotBatman*

                Probably. Jeez louise. I was assuming the joke began because he wasn’t doing his work, but you’re right that it seems more like he couldn’t be found because he was trying to avoid exactly the kind of treatment the cardboard cutout implies.

  13. Im going to Lemkin*

    To me personally these things sound pretty mild, but the fact that you’ve had two recent hires quit over this means something needs to be looked at

    1. llama mama*

      I agree that none of it sounds terrible and I’m willing to take LW’s word that lunch is a mix of people and not always the same 6 individuals. However, as someone who helps plan activities for a once a year occupational celebration week (think llama tech week), a monthly day long search for this cutout sounds like A LOT.

      I think the issue for the LW to consider is that this is not their problem to solve. They’re being asked because they were the last hire to stay, but I don’t know that that makes them qualified to offer opinions on how to screen for culture fit, since they are not going to have insights on what parts of the culture are off-putting to others. It sounds like they are just guessing.

      Did the last two people who left specify what it was that bothered them about the culture fit? It seems like drilling down on specific complaints would be the most useful, who knows maybe it was the things LW mentioned, or maybe it was attitudes about overtime or the fact that all the work is pretty solitary (per LW) and they wanted something more interactive, or anything else. If the two people who left literally said that that the cardboard coworker was the final straw, then yeah, maybe it’s just time to put that one to rest.

  14. ColoradoWinters*

    I’m convinced that OP really doesn’t understand that everything they’ve mentioned is problematic. And it DOES sound like they’re defending it.

    OP – I know that you’re asking how to help hire people who won’t bounce after seeing just how out-of-pocket your office culture is, but that’s the wrong question to be asking. Why are you defending what goes on in your office?

    And look – I get it. I’d never been particularly popular, and in my current office, I suddenly found myself part of the “cool kid” clique. It took a long time for me to realize how much they excluded others, and how they were perceived by those on the outside. It wasn’t positive, even though their work was incredibly impactful. Now that I’ve removed myself, I know that I’m not part of certain conversations, and I’m okay with that. I’d rather people respect me than think I’m part of some group that purposely leaves others out.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think this is a case of your norms getting warped when you’re in an unhealthy space too long. Not a “punching people in the face is okay” extreme case, but extreme in a different way.

      Because I agree. They enjoy it and defend it and don’t see what everyone else is reacting to.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          THAT’s the one I was thinking of, thank you! Much more interesting than punching.

      2. MsM*

        Yeah, I get that it’s not fun when a significant chunk of the internet reacts with disapproval to something you thought sounded awesome. I also get that OP doesn’t have a lot of power to implement changes, and maybe that’s why they’re focused on less systemic solutions they think the higher-ups will actually accept. But my primary takeaway from the initial post was “these guys just need to know when and where to dial it back.” Doubling down on trying to justify or downplay the stuff that made people who are effectively encountering this office culture for the first time go “whoa” is making me a lot more worried this is closer to a “we chased off a genuine rockstar because she didn’t fit in at the kegger” situation (second “you may also like” link).

      3. JustaTech*

        It’s sort of like the funny (or “funny”) stories from college can suddenly sound completely unhinged when you’re telling them to non-college friends 20 years later. Mine have usually ended up with me thinking “wow that was dumber than I remembered”, but I’ve talked about things at previous jobs where I was like “I can’t believe we thought that was OK!” – at the time it seemed fine, because that was the environment.

        It doesn’t mean everyone in OP’s office is terrible, but is absolutely means they need to take a hard look at the whole culture and ask “is this actually a good thing?”.

    2. Asloan*

      Yeah I said above, it always feel good when you’re on the inside, that’s the point. Someone once told me I was in a clique and honestly I didn’t even see it, I just saw it as hanging out with people I liked, as far as we knew we weren’t deliberately excluding anyone or creating an exclusive space/culture. But sometimes that’s how it goes.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        Yup. I recently had dinner with someone I’ve known since childhood. Our husbands were with us and at one point I said “Friend was much cooler than I was in HS.” Friend replied “Oh, we really didn’t have that cool kids/uncool kids thing, did we?” I let it go in the moment but – yes, we did, and it was much more visible if you were part of the uncool.

    3. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      Like how Cardboard Robert was created while Flesh Robert was still there, because Flesh Robert just quietly slipped off and got his work done without engaging in hijinks.

      2. Fungus Among Us*

        Yeah, if my coworkers did that to me, I’d have quietly slipped off and not gone back.

        One of my interns recently left and, because they always sat in the same place in meetings, someone made a little shrine to her at that spot at the conference table. We all immediately panicked because we thought she’d died. Jokes meant to be cute often aren’t.

      3. Dark Macadamia*

        Yeah, I missed that before and it’s… pretty shocking! I would be so uncomfortable if someone made a life size replica of me, period, and then for it to be specifically intended to mock him? And it’s still there even with him gone? WTF. The concept of a cardboard “mascot” is fine but it’s literally a prop used to bully an outsider, and showing it to new hires is essentially saying “this could be you if you don’t fit in”

        1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

          “this could be you if you don’t fit in”

          This clearly explains the feeling I had about Robert that I couldn’t articulate.

      4. SB2*

        Did Robert actually get his work done? Because the original letter said no one could ever find him. There’s no indication he was productive. He might have been doing non-work stuff.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          “No one ever knew where Robert was, and whenever someone needed him they couldn’t find him, but the work always appeared completed.”

  15. Eldritch Office Worker*

    OP, I say this kindly. Your clarification didn’t make it sound any better, or change the general takeaways I think you should have gotten from the last comment section.

    1. A Reader*

      There’s a Nick Hornby novel that I read nearly 20 years ago that opens with the narrator asking her husband for a divorce while sitting in her car in a parking lot. She muses about how she’d never have thought she’d be the type of person who would ask their husband for a divorce in a car park, but “sometimes we must be judged by our one-offs.”

      Even if not for the clarification (which I agree did not make this sound like any better an environment), I think it would still be fair to say, “This is your one-off, and it is fair for someone to form an opinion based on it.”

      1. glib_result*

        A friend once told me that “who I am” includes who I am under extreme or unlikely circumstances. So I didn’t get to dismiss something I did as “not like me,” because it literally was. I think it’s a bit simplistic, but a good point nonetheless.

  16. Unicornia*

    Does it matter what kind of workplace it is re: alien orgasm discussion–wherein the substance is about xenoanatomy? If the workplace does research that intersects with theoretical xenobiology perhaps, or possibly how sexual anatomy works across known species? If you study, idk, asexual reproduction or explore theories on how non-carbon-based life forms might exist… well, “would aliens experience pleasure in a mutually comprehensible way, and would it likely be tied to reproduction?” seems like a question that can be got at by reasonable and on-topic extrapolations.

    I studied e.g. the sociology of sex in college, and wouldn’t have been at all surprised (or upset) to hear a conversation about how conceptions of sexual and gender identity morph over time, and how they might express in the future, or appear among aliens with different anatomy and living patterns. I said that clinically, but I can imagine a conversation like that having moments that could be accurately summed up as “how *would* aliens fuck anyway?”

    1. Viki*

      It doesn’t matter, unless I suppose you’re working in NASA because how aliens fuck is not a conversation I want to hear or participate in a workplace.

      The same with any animal, I don’t want to hear a discussion about how they/anyone fuck at work.

      I have a PhD in anthropology, with a lot of courses in sexual identities etc over the ten years I was in the field and I still think it’s not appropriate workplace lunch conversation, if we’re throwing credentials around as why we think it’s an okay conversation at work.

      How aliens fuck is a perfectly fine personal NOT at work conversation with people who are willing to opt in. It’s not a lunch room conversation because the people who aren’t opting in have to leave the room to avoid it.

      1. Unicornia*

        There’s a lot of slippage regarding how intense or sexual this conversation was or could be — but “throwing credentials around,” on the mild end, this would be a non-noteable conversation for work-adjacent socialization in my field.

        As would a conversation about the evolutionary pressures that led to developing the cloaca. Or, yeah, plenty of NASA shit because I never worked at NASA but it’s not unusual to run into people who used to.

      2. Unicornia*

        Okay. So the element of trapped audience — lunch *room* specifically — factors in. That’s very fair.

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I would generally agree that context could play a role in how inappropriate this conversation is. The thing is, I would assume that someone studying such things as a job would at least not be shocked enough to quit over it and that LW, who felt the need to clarify would have mentioned it.

    3. Gruber*

      This is basically “not everyone can eat sandwiches” but in reverse.

      “You should have considered this possible scenario where it actually would be completely appropriate to discuss alien orgasms at work “

      1. Heinous Eli*

        Precisely. This level of bizarre contortion to create a hypothetical where sexual conversations at work are somehow a-ok is such a very, very tired phenomenon.

        I’m reminded of a situation years ago, back when I was woman on a blog network of mostly women. Our niche community was dealing with a reckoning regarding gendered harassment. Some (male) genius decided to create a hypothetical where an evil wizard in space was ordering the SA of a member of the network in order to prevent said evil wizard from destroying the world. In this hypothetical, he mused, was SAing one of us truly immoral?

        He really thought he was doing something with that.

    4. Spencer Hastings*

      This strikes me as more of a “midnight bull session in the dorms” type of conversation, though.

    5. Tiger Snake*

      If you do cyber security with the police in any capacity, you will see pedophillic snuff at some point. It is sadly and sickeningly inevitable. Heck, there used to be a point of time where the IT Security community accepted anyone who had to do email security would see that shit no matter which company you worked at.

      You still don’t see anyone in the field suggesting that this is an acceptable topic to have hypothical or funny discussions about.

      Sexual topics are NSFW, and that is not mystically some amazing new rule that you can quirky your way around.

    6. redheadedscientist*

      do you actually think that LW’s office studies xenobiology and non-carbon lifeforms or are you just trying to be difficult

  17. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    The use of “morbid” strikes me, because this doesn’t sound like it’s an environment (like a pediatric cancer ward) where people use dark humor to cope with the dark realities of the job. It sounds like the department developed a critical mass of “but let’s turn this morbid” folk.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yeah even in real situations where dark humor is a common and accepted coping mechanism for the reality of what you’re dealing with day to day, you still ease new people into that and think about who might overhear your conversations. You don’t make jokes on the pediatric cancer wards where the parents can hear you, for instance.

      Morbid and unaware of why it’s problematic is a red flag. I don’t know why morbid is being used in a context that makes it sound like “it’s not bad it’s just morbid”.

      1. Silver Robin*

        I absolutely work somewhere that uses dark humor to cope with the horrors of the job and we are still so very careful about how it gets used because these situations affect our clients in ways they will never affect us. We cannot use it so much that we fry our empathy, even if it is a valuable way to cope.

      2. JustaTech*

        On easing people into morbid office jokes: at OldJob my boss had a running joke of, when something completely outside anyone’s control went wrong (usually when something broke or didn’t get delivered on time) we would say “you’re fired!” to which the “firee” would respond something like “sweet! I can go home now!”.

        This could be incredibly cruel, but there was a lot of important context which was clearly demonstrated before the joke came out in front of a new person.
        1) My boss never actually blamed anyone when something went wrong – errors were disucssed but there wasn’t a “blame” thing.
        2) My boss did not have the power to fire anyone (I don’t think), and it was generally known in the whole company that you had to do something *really* egregious to get fired (like stealing).
        3) The joke was only ever directed at people my boss was sure would not be upset by it – a couple of old-timers who had been through dozens of layoffs and were both confident and jaded.
        4) it was actually and genuinely funny to the people on the receiving end of the joke (it’s only a joke if it is funny to everyone).
        5) It was rare – like maybe once every couple of months, not a daily barrage.

        But again, it doesn’t sound like the OP’s office is like this, where the weird or quirky jokes or conversation are done with consideration of everyone on the team/in the room, and not just what the in-group thinks is funny.

    2. Nightengale*

      Obviously different people’s experiences vary. The hospital where I trained did not have a separate pediatric cancer ward, but did take care of children with cancers. And. . . even there there wasn’t really a lot of morbid humor and jokes about death. Jokes sure – one oncologist told corny jokes and the other one had sort of a dry sense of humor that not everyone recognized – but they weren’t jokes specifically about the patients or death in the way people imply is common in those settings.

      1. JustaTech*

        One of my friends is an ICU nurse and she told me years ago “never go drinking with nurses, they will break you by accident” – specifically talking about how very, very dark the humor could get. But note that she said “go drinking” – these weren’t jokes in the breakroom, they were off-site.

  18. GigglyPuff*

    Just get rid of Robert and go from there. But otherwise agree with doing a team lunch so potential employees can judge the team culture.

    1. Reluctant Manager*

      I was going to say keep Robert and get rid of the other stuff! If OP’s manager wants to hire a whole new team, by all means get rid of Robert, but otherwise he’s harmless, and keeping him is a way to keep a friendly oddball spirit so that the team who works there doesn’t either revolt or completely lose morale.

    2. Box of Rain*

      I say keep Robert. He falls into the quirky and “you had to be there” kind of office jokes. And there’s no way someone will feel excluded unless now one tells them about Robert. Unless, of course, the real Robert is dead or something.

    3. JustaTech*

      The team lunch as part of the interview is a really good idea! Years ago my team was interviewing for a new scientist for our team and we insisted that we be allowed to take the candidates out for lunch. Partly to get to know them in a more casual setting (if you’re going to be workign with people in a lab you need to know if you’re going to drive them crazy quickly), and partly so we could be *really* honest that the whole company could be going under at any moment, so if the candidate had a more stable option, they should take it.

    4. MrsThePlague*

      Yeah, it took this latest round of letter/comments for me to fully realize what I found surprising and a little off about Cardboard Robert.

      Turning a former coworker into a years-long joke is really only the kind of thing you can get away with when said coworker is fully in on and approving of the joke (and even then, it’s a risk). The way it’s described sounds like Robert was a fine employee, just didn’t want to be around his coworkers much (or their shenanigans) and management was apparently fine with it? Singling him out so spectacularly just comes across as mocking someone for not being/want to be part of the group. Which may not have been the intent, but it would be so easy for it to come across that way. It could totally see a new employee feeling unsettled by it.

  19. Bambue*

    A lot of the topics feel meanspirited and judgemental. As a tween, I was part of a group that used judgement of others as a way to establish the in-group as superior and that a lack of participation would create judgement of you. I would hazard that the problem with Robert is that when people don’t engage with the joke, they feel excluded.

    1. Guacamole Bob*

      +1

      Robert being a former coworker who is a subject of mockery, death pools, celebrity indiscretions, even the framing of disappearing politicians or which horror movie character is stupid are all indicative of a culture where it’s accepted to be mean-spirited about others. Even if it’s mostly about people who are famous, it still sounds very unpleasantly negative to listen to, and also like it could easily carry over into how people talk about or treat others who aren’t present.

  20. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

    LW, I’m sorry, but I don’t think you’re focusing on the right part of the conversations. It’s not that the lunch conversations are “getting strange.” It’s that by your own description they’re CONSTANTLY swan-diving into deeply inappropriate and unprofessional territory. Sex, death, sensual pleasure, politics – the only “don’t discuss at work” topic you don’t mention is religion.

    I wouldn’t care less if there was a cardboard coworker. I cared enough to make formal complaints when someone kept which politicians and celebrities needed to die.

    1. Insufficiently Festive Cheap-ass Rolls*

      *sigh* …kept talking at the office about which politicians and celebrities…

  21. anonymous worker ant*

    LW I am more on your side with some of this than a lot of the commentariat, I think. But if multiple new hires are quitting over culture fit, then the problem is the culture, not the “fit” – because it’s keeping you from retaining the people you want!

    And you really need to drill in on the fact that the death pool has extra leave days as a prize. That makes it not an optional thing that some coworkers choose to participate in! That makes it an officially sanctioned activity where you are excluded from work-provided perks if you choose not to benefit. That’s where your culture has gone wrong – that nobody seems to be seeing that. I think if you look a little closer at where that line has gone astray, you might see more of where the real issues are.

    (I have been in offices that were fun and quirky and none of it was, on its own, work inappropriate. However, if you wanted to engage in the specific kind of fun and quirky the managers encouraged, you could spend many hours a week just playing around with coworkers. If you didn’t want to engage in that specific kind of fun and quirky, you got written up in evaluations if you weren’t 100% focused in on task all day every day, and also written up for not being a team player.)

  22. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    OP, could your question be phrased as “How can we screen for people who want to work in the department that is farthest from HR for good reason?”

    Because, while joining a team lunch is a good answer, I have doubts about the question.

    (And I suspect the people who left quickly were reacting to “We’re farthest from HR for good reason.” Assuming the departures were even about office culture rather than the work tasks.)

    1. B’Elanna*

      Yeah, the “farthest from HR for a good reason” thing would be a GIGANTIC red flag to hear as an employee, especially a new one. It indicates that you know that your culture is not just unprofessional but inappropriate, that you don’t particularly care and have no intention of changing it, and—crucially—implies that wanting to go to HR over issues you might have is against the team culture. As a new employee I’d wonder how far that went, and what social repercussions I would have if someone (for example) harassed me. Would the rest of the team close ranks against me because I hadn’t kept to a culture of staying far from HR, literally or metaphorically?

  23. Annie*

    We’ve had some weird conversations among my friend group at lunch, but that was in a huge manufacturing lunch room where there were thirty tables and it was just three or four of us, so anything NSFW was limited to people who we know would be okay with it.

    We’ve had pools on who the next GOT person would die, but nothing like real celebrity deaths. That’s pretty morbid even for me.

    I’d be very anti-Cardboard Robert, and definitely outside of lunch I’d rather be focusing on my work, so Cardboard Robert would get old fast for me.

    But all that said, in a much smaller environment I can certainly see how all of the lunch time talk and especially the death pool is out of control from a culture standpoint, and needs to be calmed down for a reasonable office culture. That is up to the OP’s boss to deal with. But if new employees step into this culture and immediately get something that makes them uncomfortable, I can see why they’d leave quickly.

    If there are no limits to the topics, what could come up next that could definitely cross the line for new employees?

  24. Joe*

    This is maybe a small pet peeve, but I am really put off by conversation “prompts.” Who on earth is initiating these bizarre conversation topics? Are they pulling from a deck? Even when they are relatively benign, it’s just such an off-putting way to initiate conversations. Practice organic small talk.

    1. metadata minion*

      It’s a pretty standard thing among the flavor of nerd I tend to hang out with. “Hey, I thought of an interesting thing — who else wants to play with it?”

      This doesn’t mean it’s appropriate at work, and *definitely* doesn’t mean the alien sex prompt was appropriate at work, but plenty of people do like that kind of conversation. I often find “organic” small talk kind of exhausting. I can do it, but I’d really rather just infodump at each other about beetles and argue about what kosher law would look like for vampires.

      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        Pretty sure this is the one and only time I’ll type “kosher law cannibalism” into a search bar. I figured that was the logical entry point to the vampire question after my first thought, which was “Well, dairy isn’t an option, given their dietary requirements”. Learned I could have typed “kosher law human blood” and found answers.

        Based on a quick skim of a few pieces, I think the vampires are out of luck. Now to see what kinds of ads get served up thanks to that search string.

  25. Ginger Cat Lady*

    None of this defensiveness makes the situation sound the least bit better than the original post. There’s no good way to spin the things you describe, OP. You’ve just become used to it, so you cannot see the forest for the trees. I urge you to be more open to what people are telling you from an outside perspective.
    Leave the hiring stuff to your manager, and speak up/don’t contribute to the problems.

  26. Snarkus Aurelius*

    The fact that your boss asked you to fix a problem that is technically hers is another red flag as well. Anyway…

    Your letter is exactly why I hate the term “culture fit” because employers have historically used it against people who are rightfully uncomfortable with questionable office practices, behaviors, and management styles. Yeah, I don’t want to hear about that alien stuff at work. I don’t want to hear about death pools either because it’s weird to celebrate the passing of a human being no matter the shock at the decedent’s age. (That’s still awful, by the way.) Bob would annoy me, but I could live with that. Your manager already knows this culture is unorthodox as noted by her concern about “scaring” you off during your first week. The added context doesn’t help your case at all.

    The point you and your boss are missing is this: impact vs. intent. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how noble or well-intentioned you are; what matters is how your actions land with the other party, especially when you don’t know their relationship with death, aliens, or celebrities. (Do you want to find out the hard way that you work with William Shatner’s second cousin?) That’s the message that your two recent departures are trying to tell you.

    As for the people who don’t join you for lunch? Did it ever occur to you that just because they’re being silent doesn’t mean they’re okay with your office culture either? Maybe they like the work or the paycheck and they see these shenanigans as the price to pay to work there. But you don’t know for sure so please don’t say things like, “Team lunches also really are optional.” You may see it that way, but what’s “optional” to you may feel like a silent obligation to someone else, especially if they’re in the minority demographics-wise.

    I hate small talk, but your letter is why people in new situations with fresh faces tend to rely on it to build intimacy. It’s not because we’re lame or too uptight.

    So, yeah, knock off the weirdness for a year and see where that lands your office. I suspect your retention rates might go up.

  27. Sabrina in FL*

    “My manager even told the team to act normal during my first week so they would not scare me off.” – how does the very fact that there was a need for this not raise some concern in this office??

    LW I thank you for the update but I’ll be very honest it comes across as someone trying to backtrack and continue to excuse some deeply concerning behavior. And as others have also said, the Robert cutout is the least thing that you should be focused on.

    1. Happy Temp*

      I came here to make the same comment about that from their letter!

      “My manager even told the team to act normal during my first week so they would not scare me off.” How can you write this and not see it as a problem?

      This should tell OP everything: that there IS a problem with their current culture *and* why they have a hiring problem (and now a retention problem). And the “hiring problem” to solve isn’t “how do we hire people exactly like us?”

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Right, it’s weird that OP and their manager don’t see the clear line:

        1. Act normal week one (don’t scare them off)
        2. Let it out week two
        3. New workers leave after “a few weeks”

        I get that OP themselves can’t change the culture. But the boss asked for feedback so they can (theoretically) do something. That’s the feedback OP should give.

        Also, OP, telling yourself “the only possible way to improve things would be to scratch everything and start over” is excuse-making and enabling yourself to resist change. What have you tried? Nothing, and you’re all out of ideas. Instead, make a list of things you could try and find out if they help.

    2. Reed Strange*

      Yeah, my college club sport team joked about “be normal until the newbies pay club dues, and THEN you can be weird”, but that has been mostly phased out over the years. Turned out, it had started from one (1) member who had a Very Specific sense of humor and the coaches didn’t have a great way to handle it at the time. The club culture as a whole has evolved and grown much more inclusive (though it is definitely still a bunch of college kids and they make me feel so old now that I’m coaching!)

  28. AnonSpeaks*

    I commented on the first question and I still think this sounds utterly exhausting. It’s like the “fun banter” I always skip at the first 10 minutes of all those oh-so-crazy-Millenial-lady podcasts. But it’s an office! You say this is all optional but I wonder what all the people who don’t participate think of the silly pop culture obsessions and kooky group activities.

  29. IVantToVerk*

    When I started a job in late October, my bosses spent time that week making fake vampire teeth in the lab. They were delightful to work for, their professional skills were exemplary, and in my own personal life I’m kookier than many, but I was still somehow– offended?– that my onboarding time in a professional setting was being diverted that way.

  30. Diane Chambers*

    This reads like a long list of justifications that don’t help your case at all. And no, your letter didn’t come across as asking “How do we change the culture?” That’s the problem.

    One important point: “Lunch is optional” is not the good point you think it is. Yes, it’s optional, but if people exercise that option because they’re uncomfortable with the conversations, they lose out. They lose out on connecting with team members, which can lead to missed work opportunities. Plus, there’s the risk of gaining the reputation of being the not-fun, unpopular one.

    2. KitKat*

      Another way to look at this is what would happen if a new employee DID want to build social bonds with teammates, but didn’t want to participate in these topics? If a new hire has
      to choose between participating in a celebrity death pool and self-ostracizing, you have a problem.

      1. Midwest Problems*

        Worse, what if you get someone who DOES want to participate and has the exact right personality to pour gasoline on this smouldering HR fire

  31. king of squash*

    When I used to onboard people to our union, I ended up talking to a lot of coworkers who were a bit outside what I’d consider to be the main social circle of my workplace, mostly because they were older and worked offsite from the main location. While it was always nice if people felt like showing up to social functions, ultimately we live in a capitalist society that requires we work for a living. There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing up, doing your job decently, and leaving. It is a neutral thing to do, and people who choose to do this deserve the same respect and access to benefits.

  32. J*

    My previous office (where I worked for several years) had an office culture that was really grating on me by the time I left. When I started, a coworker and I would take our lunch breaks together, reading and eating at a table in the kitchen. Everyone who walked in would make jokes about how boring we were. There was constant sports talk and pressure to participate in things like March Madness, and a LOT of sports- and non-sports-related gambling (and gambling talk). I am an anxious person and gambling stuff can be really triggering to me – I knew it wasn’t realistic to make the whole office stop doing that, so mostly I put my headphones on and got through it. There was also a lot of diet talk, which I eventually had to shut down in my presence by announcing I was in ED recovery. And there were a lot of sexist expectations, like that I would answer phones if needed or help one of my bosses with writing checks to pay his bills with the unstated reason of “because I was a woman.” When we started working from home in 2020, I realized what a toll that had taken on me. If I walked into an office like that again now, I would walk right out. I would imagine that most of the people I worked with had no idea that they had created such an off-putting environment for people who were introverted, averse to gambling, not into dieting, etc. But they had! I guess the question is – do you want an office that is welcoming to the best candidates / employees, or do you want one that has weird lunch discussions and morbid inside jokes? That’s the question facing OP’s boss.

    1. EarlGrey*

      ” If I walked into an office like that again now, I would walk right out.”

      I think this is a really important comment because it shows the effect of working in a (sadly too common) toxic office culture – LW, I’m guessing you came to this office from relatively friendly environments in previous jobs, so your first impression of Robert and everything was fun and harmless. But put yourself in the shoes of someone who’s been bullied or had to deal with endless misogyny, pressure to drink or gamble, etc and then imagine encountering a very in-joke, sexual or morbid conversation topics focused team. You’d be worried it would turn out like your nasty old workplace, right? you wouldn’t be going in assuming things would stay chill and friendly? you might just leave rather than take the risk of staying and getting to know the team and culture better.

    1. SB2*

      I really like office cultures that are friendly and warm. I like making friends at work! It annoys me when people push hard on the opinion that “Your coworkers are not your friends.” because sometimes they are.

      But when you’re at work, you have to be in work mindset. These questions/conversations are fine with your friends when you’re not at work. It’s the same as adjusting your behavior to be appropriate for a classroom, or at church, or even the grocery store. Your friends are still your friends in those places…but what you discuss openly and how you behave changes.

  34. Defying gravity*

    I agree with the commentariat that this office culture is problematic, and that it likely stems from an in group dynamic. I’ve been part of one of those offices before, and it was deeply unpleasant – the conversations weren’t always inappropriate, although they were sometimes – but it was always a very in crowd type feel. But I’d be interested to hear from Alison or other commenters about how you were supposed to change this type of dynamic. Sure you can ban all talk of death, sex, etc., and that’s a good place to start – but the end crowd may just move to other topics that aren’t as inherently uncomfortable but still leave the inside clique driving away any outsiders. How do you handle this? I got the sense that OP works in a small office and I know that they’re prone to this sort of thing. But I’d love any input on how to change these dynamics because I also find them deeply uncomfortable and they contribute to me wanting to leave work environments.

    1. JustaTech*

      Here’s how I have seen those dynamics change:
      New people come on and some of the people from the original group see how the new person reacts and adjust their conversation to match the norm of the new person/people. (It helps if it’s more than one new person and if they new person is relatively senior/ solid in themselves.)

      New person comes in and actively changes the type of lunch conversation – this can be by introducing something new (like, hey, let’s do a crossword/ sudoku during lunch) or it can be an explicit “hey, let’s talk about something else, like Y” or even “can we please not talk about Z?”

      Members of the old guard leave and the dynamics naturally drift – when the three baseball-obsessed people left the office, suddenly there was a lot less baseball conversation.

      How can you as one of the people who is already there and on the inside change the dynamic? It takes effort and risk (of being excluded) but the OP could try by actively offering different lunch prompts (I know someone upthread said they hated these, but here’s a spot where they’re useful), like the classic “is a hotdog a sandwich?” or “how about that moon launch?!” Get everyone out of the rut of squicky conversations. Or participating less when the conversation is NSFW. Or say “hey, this is a weird thing to talk about at work, let’s not.”

      None of these are quick, or easy, or guaranteed to work and not have blowback, but they can work and may be worth trying.

    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      The manager could stop the practice of someone getting a day off for having successfully predicted which living human being is going to be the next to die.
      That would be a start.

    3. Be the Change You Seek*

      In my case I was an outside contractor but had to spend a lot of time with individual teams. I was also politically well protected and well liked, which helped a lot I think. I’m also pretty confident with zero issues being assertive when necessary.

      I at first was just an observer (not for long), then I raised the issue with the most relevant party (whoever had day to day power over the teams in question). Lets face it , being as this type of behavior doesn’t happen under good strong managers, I would then start to say something in the moment. It was usually said with a lighthearted/joking/friendly tone but along the lines of “You did not just say that!?/Did someone forget to send me the “we are trying to get ourselves sued” memo?/You must really keep HR busy!”. If that doesn’t do the trick then comes the “That is my queue to leave/I’m outta here/That is a line I shall opt not to cross/I’m exiting before the scandal breaks” coupled with walking away. Inevitably this curbs some things, but not all so then I have to go with the “How have none of you been fired yet?/If HR turns the corner do we all lose our jobs?/What is wrong with you people?”

      Usually there were a few more serious conversations with the people in charge about my concerns. I think other things help too like new team members, company situations that cause overall crackdowns, but sometimes just constant commentary does it. I realize my position is pretty privileged so not everyone can expend capital like I did, but there have been plenty of times when I had zero capital – I just said things in a chipper enough tone with the right about of hardyhar to get the job done.

      Funny enough I can’t think of a single team that hasn’t significantly improved or eliminated the behavior while I’m there.

  35. Jane*

    I’m so glad Alison used the word “exhausting” because that’s exactly the word that came to mind for me – EXHAUSTING. Also – UNFAIR. I love a fun work environment, but I wouldn’t want to talk about a freaking cardboard cutout every day. (EVERY day?) I wouldn’t want to miss out on free PTO because I don’t want to participate in a death pool. This company really needs to grow up. Sorry, OP.

  36. Dawn*

    I think maybe the reason we were so laser-focused on the “alien orgasm” comment was two-fold: One, if that was your one example, which conversations weren’t we hearing about? And second, because I think an awful lot of us would have found that one incident significantly offputting, even if it were an outlier, especially within our first couple weeks/months.

    I think the point still stands that newcomers are leaving for their stated reason: the office culture is a major problem.

    1. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      Whether extraterrestrials would experience pleasure or physical sensation.

      This discussion sounds like a group of people who are trying to be loudly edgy, but don’t know much about biology. So it’s just frustrating to try to engage in the conversation even if you identify as a nerd super into this science stuff, who reads a lot of sci fi.

      One day in June, the pine trees where I am are going to emit vast clouds of pollen, coating everything in sight. I doubt there’s a physical pleasure mechanism involved. There’s biology in your yard you can query about this stuff.

  37. marymoocow*

    Respectfully, I would be miserable in this office. None of the clarifications make this situation feel better and I’m not sure you’re getting the point.

    My team has a standing lunch every week so we can check in on each other, make time for non-work convos, and maybe vent a little. It’s one of the highlights of my week. When you turn off so many coworkers and they skip team lunch, they’re missing out on valuable connections that are so much more important than the culture you’re committed to defending.

  38. PatM*

    Management needs to stop giving out PTO for silly contests. If there would be a revolt if the deadpool was eliminated entirely you could change the prize to cash, or getting to have a trophy on your desk until the next winner, or if people can transfer leave have them ante some hours and pay out the day off from the antes.

    Also if people are able to end inappropriate conversations without them restarting why didn’t that happen to the alien one?

  39. OddlyAdministrative*

    Maybe this reflects poorly on me… But I’d love to work at a place like this. It also sounds like people are comfortable tapping out of the goofy goings on when they like? I also think Alison may be right and the two newcomers who left could have been outliers! After all, lots of things can impact why someone stays or goes, and sometimes a vague “This isn’t the right ‘fit’ for me” isn’t the full reality, but a gentle way to depart without welcoming additional, unwanted questions.

    Does this place sound perfect? No. But considering the nightmare stories I have read here and experienced myself, this is not a dumpster fire of a workplace. Hell, if the biggest problems I had at work was my coworkers dressing up a piece of cardboard named Robert I probably wouldn’t be looking for jobs right now.

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      If my “comfortable tapping out” you mean “quit the job over this” then sure. They are having trouble keeping roles filled over this, and that’s a problem worth fixing. It’s not okay to just drive people out with betting over death and discussions of alien orgasms.

    2. saradactyl*

      I also feel like an outlier for thinking that not only do the clarifications help, but this place sounds cool and interesting with interesting people to work with.

    3. Amaya*

      I think the handwriting is excessive. but then how could the OP attract someone like you?

    4. Kay*

      I truly think striving for more professional workplaces, not less, is better for everyone. That this doesn’t fall under the worst of the worst isn’t anything to celebrate. No one should be proud of their boss telling the team to tone it down for the newbies, or the team having a reputation linked to HR, and on.

  40. Antigone*

    OP, your clarifications don’t meaningfully change anything about my prior advice. Your cardboard coworker is fine, a mild bit of silliness that would have very little impact on a new hire if everything else were reasonable.

    The rest of what you describe is really not okay. It’s not your job to change it, but since you’ve been asked for input I really think you should suggest a serious effort at culture change. A workplace can be sociable and enjoyable without any of this.

    At a bare minimum I’d start by decoupling days off from *anything* that happens at optional lunches, not just death pools. People need to be able to use their lunch time for errands, appointments, decompression, or whatever without missing out on a big work perk.

    1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      This x 1000: “start by decoupling days off from *anything* that happens at optional lunches.” That’s the strongest possible signal that only the cool kids get to have nice things.

  41. Andrew*

    Being morbid and edgy to the degree that it comes off as confrontational is pretty much GUARANTEED to drive away LOTS of reasonable people who don’t want to be surrounded by frat boys and chunni goth types, LW. (FYI: Google “chunnibyou.” It’s a Japanese term for a very adolescent mindset.) The death betting pool needs to die itself, for starters, and nix all the NSFW discussion in the work lunchroom next.

    And I still think Robert needs a side of smoked fish, because he’s far more “red herring” than “red flag”!

  42. cloudy*

    I actually think Robert may be worth some self-reflection too as well as far as company culture goes. Not because he is a cardboard cut-out, which seems perfectly normal, but because he is based on a real Robert.

    If I were interviewing there, my first thoughts would be: Was real employee Robert okay with this? Did he find it funny too? If I join this office as someone who does keep to myself due to general social anxiety, do I need to worry about becoming The Next Robert? What if, because I eat lunch by myself, my team makes a cardboard cut-out of me and turns it into a running joke that continues long after I’m there?

    This kind of sounds like the stuff straight out of my high school bullying nightmares.

    If real Robert found it hilarious, then at a very minimum I would be sure to lead with that.

    1. brjeau*

      This stood out to me too! The games around a cardboard cutout aren’t all that off putting or weird on their own, and I could see finding them fun. But the context of who Cardboard Robert is based on makes it feel much more exclusionary and, frankly, mean.

      1. Immaterial*

        yes, and it seems like part of the reason Robert has been so memorialized is because he didn’t fit in with the culture.

    2. Emma*

      Agree!

      Like can you imagine if one of your former workplaces had a cutout of you that they paraded around for years, without you being cool with it? It’s upsetting to think about.

    3. MrsThePlague*

      Agreed. I think there’s a lot of clarification needed on the Cardboard Robert situation because reading it a second time, it feels pretty meanspirited? Even if that wasn’t the intent (and I’d believe the LW if they said it wasn’t intended that way), I could see a new hire coming to the conclusion that if they don’t participate in the office culture – even when they don’t like it – they could be similarly mocked. It sort of puts the lie to the idea that ‘lunches are optional’, you know?

  43. Slow Gin Lizz*

    You know, it’s the celebrity death pools and the company-sanctioned day off if you guess correctly that’s really giving me pause here. I tend to have a morbid sense of humor myself but I don’t think guessing the day someone dies is humorous and it’s especially weird that the company itself thinks these pools are so okay that they are endorsing them with a benefit for winning the pool.

    I suppose I think that guessing the day of someone’s death is kind of gross in a way that joking about death isn’t. Sorry, OP, this would make me nope out of your company too.

  44. Bitsy*

    The trouble with morbid humor, or risky/risque humor in general, is that if a receiver doesn’t appreciate the joke, it risks making them think of something horrible, that could be genuinely upsetting to them. It’s much riskier than just not being funny.

    Think of someone whose relative died in a certain way, and now the group is joking around about a celebrity dying in the same way. Is that person going to speak up? Or just feel awful and disengage?

    I’m not saying we should never use morbid humor at all. But a little bit goes a long way. And regardless, it runs a real risk of hurting people.

    2. glib_result*

      It reminds me of a John Scalzi saying, that the failure state of “clever” is “asshole.” The failure state of dark humor is genuine trauma or grief.

      1. Bitsy*

        Yes. I’m thinking of Anderson Cooper, whose brother killed himself. He’s said that whenever suicide is a plot point or a joke in a movie or show, he can’t watch anymore.

  45. Anony-moose*

    OP, as Alison said this is not your problem to fix. But I think you need to think about if people really would feel free to disagree/shut-down conversation and move on when Robert, your prime example of the work culture, is a cardboard version of a co-worker who apparently did all his work but did not participate in the company culture and is *still being made fun of* long after he left. From the outside this sounds like a cliquey nightmare and I’m not surprised people are leaving

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      That struck me as well. The fact that the team continuously (daily in fact) mocks someone who left and “didn’t fit in” says all you need to know about how truly fun the culture is.

    3. JustaTech*

      It might be very insightful if the OP were to suggest that cardboard Robert be changed out for something else – a giant stuffed animal, a cardboard cut out of a movie character (like a C-3PO or something) and see how the lunch crew responds.
      If they’re delighted, well, then it’s that they like being quirky and any “thing” will fill that need.
      If they’re mad because it was about that specific Robert, well, that says a lot also.

      1. Anony-moose*

        I think this is a really good idea. If the joy is in the absurdity than certainly a carboard cutout/other fun item would fulfil the same need

        1. Neptune*

          Switch it out for a cutout of a fictional Robert. Robert from the Office, Robert Baratheon, Sideshow Bob.

  46. Yes And*

    Sorry, but I think OP and Alison and most of the commenters are burying the lede here. The winner of an optional, social competition gets an extra paid day off. People who opt out of these non-work conversations, for any reason, are forgoing a company benefit. That the topic is icky/controversial/”morbid” is just adding insult to injury.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I definitely think the solid reward attached to the tomfoolery is an issue, but so is the more subtle issue; the very obvious support of management. If you don’t want to join in lunch conversations, or greet Robert, it’s going to be hard to imagine that you’re impressing the boss on an equal footing with those who do. Clearly this stuff is important to the leadership, and people look to the things that the boss approves of/rewards for their own guidance.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      That’s not burying the lede. That was addressed in the original and hasn’t changed at all since.

    3. Immaterial*

      and no one even told OP about this benefit for months. OP acts like that makes it better, but to me it makes it worse.

      1. Spiderling*

        Fully agree. (I said it another comment before I saw this one, haha.) It suggests that people aren’t even being told about this opportunity to “earn” extra compensation if they aren’t part of the in-group, which is a massive issue.

        To be clear, it would still be problematic even if management was open about it: compensation should be based on work performance and seniority, not your willingness to participate in gambling or your ability to guess correctly.

        1. Decima Dewey*

          The prize should not be a paid day off and should not be given by management.

          An actual prize given a staff group? Fine. The sillier the better. A Hot Wheels car to put on your desk. A small trophy. A Dead of the Dead sugar skull stress ball. A toy from a current kid’s show.

  47. Account*

    “doubling down on silliness to the point that it permeates the office in a way that a lot of people would just find exhausting”

    Yes, this! I am pretty hard to offend, so none of the described would really be offensive to me. I would roll my eyes at alien sex and celebrity death pools. But it sounds exhausting and annoying. I can definitely imagine the type of person who would think “Coolest office ever!”– my fourteen year old son, perhaps. But it’s a VERY specific type of person. If you want an office that is even *slightly* diverse in terms of background, culture, personality, you’ll need to tone it down.

  48. Tea Monk*

    Yea I’m weird but this makes me nervous because I wouldn’t know exactly where the line is. I prefer things a little more professional and would probably skip lunch a lot.

    I wouldn’t quit a job with insurance over it but..

    1. PatM*

      … but if its been a few weeks and you get an offer from a different company you’re going with the devil you don’t know over the one you do.

  49. Insulindian Phasmid*

    The only “good reason” to be sat far from HR is that you’re so scrupulously professional and inclusive that no one can even imagine HR needing to talk to you about your behavior.

  50. Resume Please*

    Look, one-off odd lunch discussions happen sometimes. Per the original post, the alien convo took up more than one lunch, and the death betting is not a simple “oh wow (name of public figure) is so old, I thought they died like two years ago” comment but a monthly event that gets tracked and the winner gets a day off. It doesn’t matter that some people don’t participate. Also, Robert was a real employee, so it’s pretty strange.

    Your team takes things too far.

  51. WhoKnows*

    I used to work in the entertainment industry (think corporate, but still creative) and with the exception of the alien conversation, all of these conversations would have been perfectly normal in all of my workplaces. My sense of normality is obviously skewed, but 100% we would have said things like “can you believe X actor is still alive? I wonder when he’s gonna die” and it would have been laughed at, not frowned upon.

    Not saying it’s good, just saying, that kind of stuff can get normalized pretty easily depending on where you’re working.

  52. EarlGrey*

    “I was introduced to Robert on my first day. My manager even told the team to act normal during my first week so they would not scare me off. The monthly “hunt” for Robert is optional and avoidable, but comments about him happen every day, and new employees are introduced to him as though he is simply part of the team.”

    Previously I was on team “Robert is not the issue here” but whew, reading this bit of the letter, he kind of is! The hunt is genuinely every month? You had a formal introduction? People are greeting and commenting on him DAILY? This is so much devotion to a joke – especially one that is inherently a bit exclusive since it’s about someone from before LW’s time and certainly before the two newcomers who left – that I’m exhausted reading about it. No workplace joke is really THAT funny for THAT long, right? If this kind of playing out a joke or conversation or betting pool well past where it might have quietly expired in another culture is normal, I can certainly see how new people feel like they’ll never fit in.

  53. Samwise*

    Only happens at lunch — that means some people can’t use the lunchroom when the gruesome crowd is there. Maybe the people who don’t eat with the group like going out or eating at their desk. Maybe not.

    1. Teacher Lady*

      Right, I’d be so annoyed at having to steer clear of the lunch room to avoid this!

    2. Brooks*

      Yes, this sounds like a group that would have me turning around and going elsewhere to eat in peace.

  54. Ellis Bell*

    I think this is symptomatic of a very hands off manager who’s never had to have difficult conversations with staff before now about what is, and what isn’t professional. I’ve worked in places where the odd “fun” character had death pools going, but I’ve never known management actually back it with time off?! So, this manager is still not even considering the state of their own culture after losing two hires to a culture that’s gone at least a little rogue (and honestly I believe OP that the co-workers can be fun, but at the end of the day they’ve had multiple conversations where they only consider the comfort zone of the in crowd and not the new person; that’s just ignoring basic manners). Why is the manager trying to hire for the culture they’ve got instead of shaping a more inclusive culture? Because it’s easier.

    1. PatM*

      “Hands off” might not be right considering they offer leave for the deadpool. Its more like they’re steering into the weirdness.

  55. Do these bananapants make my butt look big?*

    I appreciate the follow up, but it doesn’t change my initial reaction that hiring for “fit” is always a red flag. It’s wonderful when a new team member appears and just drops right into the shenanigans, but you run the risk of missing great people who would enhance the mix by being different if your environment is SO [anything] as to be alienating. And worst case, fit is just fancy talk for discrimination.

    1. Immaterial*

      yeah, hiring for people who fit into the culture is a great way to explain your discriminatory hiring practices.

  56. HR Exec Popping In*

    OP, the question your boss needs to ask themselves – is the department set up to have the best results given it’s culture. I do find the antics a bit extreme and inappropriate. But if I put that aside, are you able to attract and retain the talent needed and does the team deliver very strong results. As others have pointed out, the culture may work very well for some members of the team from a fun/enjoyability perspective. Other may tolerate it. And others walk away from it. Now (again removing the appropriateness of some the examples) does this contribute to or hinder business results? That is why you all have jobs, why your department exists. Most people want to enjoy their work as well. But sometimes when we focus on enabling joy for a few, you actually create an obstacle from enjoyment from others.

    I strongly think the team is too focused on celebrating and protecting their quirkiness. So my recommendation would be for your manager (not you) to talk to people in the department (individually) about the culture – what do they like, what don’t they like, what do they simply tolerate. And then figure out what you should keep, what you should remove and what you should build.

  57. L*

    LW seems not to understand that the alien discussion was simply *unacceptable* in the workplace. It’s just not defensible. It strains credulity that a discussion about genital anatomy and pleasure sensations could not be perceived as sexual. You saying you saw it differently isn’t necessarily a defense to someone else’s perception of it being unwanted sexual talk connected to work. Is this really what you want to be saying? Like another commenter said, this type of humor is risky, as in your workplace could face a lawsuit over it.

    If the culture cannot become more inclusive, you’re better off just accepting that you’ll have higher turnover. But, hopefully management is receptive to drawing a line at illegal harassment and discrimination.

  58. Bathyphysa Conifera*

    “How can I help my manager hire someone who is likely to fit in here, while also giving candidates a fair sense of what the office is like, so neither side feels misled?”

    OP, do you think an answer to this is “Bring Robert to the interview, let him ask questions, and explain that if the applicant doesn’t join it with the office culture they, too, will become a cardboard cutout, engaging in hijinks long after they have left for a different company” ?

    1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Another bit of onboarding information for the prospective new employee: “of course if you don’t fit in here and eventually leave and become famous for some reason, it’s possible the staff will gamble on when you will die so they can be rewarded with a paid day off”.

  59. oh well, whatever, nevermind*

    In a workplace with adults, we all have an understanding that sex and death occur. Some of these conversations that the OP and coworkers seem to view as avant-garde, are pretty tedious or maybe immature, (exhausting as Alison aptly put it). I might offer, when I read the original post, my thinking was, “wouldn’t any species that sexually procreates have a natural drive/reward urge?” How on earth would that conversation go on for more than a few minutes?

    As for the cardboard cutout, my rural midwest DMV did something similar with a 6 foot stuffed animal (putting it in empty work stations, making a name badge for it, etc.) I only know this because when I asked about the giant stuffed animal, the DMV worker told me about the antics. She also explained they eventually became bored with it.

    1. Bathyphysa Conifera*

      Pollination by wind is a thing. Also mass spawning in corals.

      But yeah, if reproduction involves moving around to find a member of your species, of the appropriate gender–and possibly then ascertaining their attractiveness as a mate, such that mating with them seems worthwhile–then there is probably some sort of biological reward mechanism involved. Or you would just sit there.

      1. oh well, whatever, nevermind*

        Thank you!

        I felt like I might get caught on my lack of biology knowledge, but yeah, this is what I meant.

  60. Uff*

    I want to know what your team staff meetings look like. Are they also off the hook, like everything else you have described? Is the core group of people interrupting the manager with off-the-cuff comments? Or does your manager even have an all staff meeting? Your manager should be setting the tone for the team. Since it sounds like this person doesn’t really have experience leading (because which competent manager offers PTO for a death poll?!), I would recommend they ask HR or a peer for development growth opportunities. They need to see how others manage teams and implement some of those learnings to your team.

  61. middlemgmt*

    When I was in college, i had an internship that turned into my first real job after graduating, so i didn’t have a lot of context about what office culture should be like.

    My boss was a ‘let’s make it fun’ person. they did wacky things, we had wacky outings. they hired a bunch of other interns along with their two DRs who were also brand new grads, and this quickly became the norm, and i thought, ‘hey this is great, it’s so fun!’ except sometimes it wasn’t. there were signs that i didn’t see as red flags at the time. like how i hid that i had a new boyfriend for about 7 or 8 months because i knew that if i talked about having a relationship, my boss would ‘jokingly’ call them in the middle of a staff meeting or otherwise pull them into our wackiness. this was a real thing that happened to other people, and i wasn’t wrong in the end. boss was ‘hurt’ that i hadn’t told them. It wasn’t until after this boss left that i realized how toxic all of that was, but most of all, i also only learned then that my boss’s “tight” culture on our team alienated us from the rest of the company. Once boss left I came to know people from other departments better. I was told that boss’s dynamics had put them off of interacting with us. People actually told me “i had no idea you were so great to work with because (ex) department boss was not very welcoming and made it clear we were not part of the clicque”. i’d been so enmeshed in my department culture that i didn’t even realize that it was costing me working relationships. i simply thought hey, my immediate team is great! and not “i wonder why people from other departments never chat with us”. It was a real eye opener to hear that after the fact and something i’ve taken to heart ever since. I hope that you are also able to take a step back and look at it from a wider view.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I think new grads are so vulnerable to exactly this kind of cliquey leadership because this kind of leader only wants to hire new grads. Why? They don’t have any frame of reference so they’re happy to accept whatever the situation is and they’re also desperate to learn professional norms so there’s an added incentive to deny and ignore any internal discomfort. I definitely worked in more dysfunctional environments the younger and less experienced I was, especially if everyone else on the team was equally so.

    2. DramaQ*

      Yeah the comment “We joke that our office is far away from HR for a reason” is very telling. If you take pride in the fact that you are far enough away that HR can’t hear you talking your conversations are probably not work place appropriate and I’m sure other departments they interact with notice too.

      And likely influences being able to move around the company if this department has that kind of reputation. We all knew the labs nobody wanted to work with and we all knew which ones were the ones not to stick your neck out for if they wanted to move labs.

  62. L*

    I’m surprised that LW is still defending the sexual alien lunch conversation. And LW is (probably unintentionally) running through the playbook of what employers say to excuse and enable an illegal hostile work environment:

    -I don’t think it was sexual (when convo was about anatomy and pleasure sensation, denies victims’ thoughts and feelings)
    -It only happens at lunch (misunderstands nexus part of the law)
    -People choose not to have lunch (ignores that the choice could be because of hostile work environment)

  63. MN Nice*

    I don’t know y’all, everyone in the comments is assuming these things happen all day every day and addressing it as such (using words like “overbearing” and “exhausting”) but it really sounds like outside of the cardboard guy it only happens over lunch with a few select folks? A lunch you don’t have to go to or participate in? Which means the cardboard guy is the only culture thing everyone is exposed to? I’ll echo Alison in your boss should be asking folks who usually don’t eat lunch with the others how they feel about the culture. I bet you’d hear a way different story. However, I can see why new people might be eager to join coworkers at lunch as a way to build rapport, and being subjected to weird conversations might be off-putting to some. So maybe just tell folks to cool it for a while when there’s new people, and let them get to know you more slowly. Also – get rid of the death pool. Or do it amongst yourselves without an official work prize like a day off.

  64. Immaterial*

    I feel like the added info makes things worse. You can get a free PTO day ( a benefit worth money) from the death pool, but no one is even telling new hires about this benefit?!

    1. Spiderling*

      That was my thought, too. In order to get the free day off (a HUGE benefit for many people!), you have to:

      1) Know about the betting pool in the first place – presumably by being part of the office “in-group.”
      2) Be okay with the idea of gambling on somebody’s death…or at least be willing to put your personal ethics aside for the sake of fitting in and/or earning an extra benefit.
      3) Correctly guess the death and win the bet.

      Benefits shouldn’t be allocated based on lucky guesses, and they *definitely* shouldn’t be allocated based who’s most willing to participate in a morally-questionable activity.

  65. Dido*

    I could actually see myself participating in most of these activities with my friend group, but all of it together in one workplace borders on ridiculous. How does anyone have time to actually get work done? And while I’m not prudish with my same-age friends that I’ve known for years, I do not want to hear my 55 year old married coworker discuss orgasms, whether human or alien. Because that leaves an opening for them to make inappropriate innuendos that are not really about aliens with plausible deniability. These people think they’re on a sitcom or something

  66. Golf Schmolf*

    There’s an old letter about golf that Alison answered, where the writer was asking about a golf trip when the women in the workplace were choosing not to go – I’d highly recommend you give it a read, OP. It’s not a 1:1 of your workplace, but there are good lessons to take.

    You have activities in your office (the lunch convos), that many enjoy and think are fun. And people are opting out, and are therefore losing out on facetime and connection with their coworkers. Even though the activities are optional, and no work is happening during the activities, and people are just choosing not to come, to quote Alison from that golf letter, “Yes. They’re choosing not to.” So you have to make sure there are activities that let people feel included in the group, and get facetime with coworkers.

    You have evidence that people’s relationships are affected by not joining in on the activities (Robert didn’t participate, and got made fun of). If somebody is avoiding the conversations because they have a religious objection to gambling, or a religious objection to discussing death, you might be accidentally discriminating based on religion, which (I think?) is illegal. Even if you’re not discriminating in the legal sense, you’re still making things uncomfortable for those who don’t want to participate in these conversations.

    You’re at work to work, and you need to be able to work with people cordially and well. That includes people who love baseball, hate sports, watch GOT, don’t like fantasy, people who have only seen 3 movies, people who love Disney, and people who don’t enjoy talking about death in any context. Currently, your workplace is prioritizing fun conversations over making people talk about comfortable topics that include more people. Stopping these conversations may make work less fun. And again, to quote Alison, “It’s still what you need to do if you want to be an inclusive workplace.”

    I know your question was about how to hire more people who will enjoy this workplace. The thing is, that’s the wrong question. The question should be about how to change the workplace so more people will find it enjoyable. Hopefully your boss will listen to that, as no matter what, it’s not your job to fix this anyway.

    2. Just Here for the Llama Grooming*

      +1000!!

      Making a place for people of all kinds to feel included is (a) the decent way to behave (b) required in a truly inclusive work environment (c) a learnable social skill.

      EVERYBODY has some kind of niche interest that they can geek out about. The place to look for other people with that interest CAN be work; the place to do the actual geeking out is NOT at work.

  67. Lady Lessa*

    Like many of the others, I would be extremely uncomfortable with the culture of LW’s company, and I tend to have moderately weird tastes, don’t mind some bodily fluid talk, etc.

    But as a start to changing the culture to make it more welcoming to all, not just those that fit into a narrow clique. What about changing the PTO betting pool to “Hugo winners” or “NYTimes best sellers” or if there is an organization that rates graphic novels, etc. Just to be clear, when I mention graphic novels, I am referring to the books that tell the story with art as much as or more than with words.

  68. glib_result*

    This hits me hard, because while I’m shuddering at how *wrong* this is, I also see myself in LW and her coworkers. I don’t know if it matters, but I also wonder how old she/they are.

    I bet a lot of us here remember being a “weird kid” who eventually found a friend group of other weird kids. And for me, since I was used to being part of a small social group that clearly didn’t fit within the larger school or college or workplace, it never really occurred to me that my social group was capable of being exclusionary. And because it feels so validating and empowering to find your people, it’s hard to acknowledge that the very same things that make you feel welcomed are actively making people feel left out.

    LW, I think you & your coworkers sound like people I would love to hang out with. (Y’all have a standing invite to my craft & coffee meetup.) And it’s hard to see comments like these without taking it personally or feeling defensive. But I hope you can sit with some of the responses here, and reflect on them. And think that there can be a balance at your work that will result in a stronger overall team.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      That’s the thing, though: This isn’t a friend group, this is a workplace. They can be friends and talk about whatever they like on their off time.

      1. DramaQ*

        I’ve had weird conversations with coworkers but we know our audience.

        We have an entire lunchroom away from our department where we can break off into our individual groups.

        It’s not a share lunchroom where it’s either you have to sit and listen to us or go eat alone in your office.

        We’ve had fun in the area there are still little plastic ducks lurking everywhere that were “hidden” a few months ago but it’s not a disruption to others and their work like the scavenger hunt for Bob is. You don’t either have to join or sit alone in your office.

        The problem is this department has decided it is the “cool” department and while you can argue all day long people have a “choice” to not participate they really don’t because it’s happening all around them and it is very obvious who is in and who is out.

        They made the cut of Bob specifically because he chose not to participate and they decided one way or another he would. Instead of making Bob feel welcome they made a fake version of him that fit their narrative of what a coworker should act like.

        That’s not inclusive.

        People who see that and hear teh story of how Bob originated are going to be worried they will be the next cardboard cut out if they don’t play along. That’s not inclusive that is peer pressure.

        I was also the weird kid in school and I know how hard it is to not fit in. Which is why I feel for the people stuck in their offices.

        The manager is making it crystal clear what type of personality and behavior she prefers and will reward. I doubt it stops at the extra day of PTO but it’s likely not as obvious in those other situations to people who aren’t in her group.

        That’s not inclusive. It’s the exact opposite.

        There is a VERY wide bell curve between only being allowed to talk about the weather at work and a celebrity death pool/alien sex talk. This department needs to find that middle ground if they want to attract and keep talent.

      2. glib_result*

        I’m worried that you think I disagree. The point I wanted to make is that LW seems to be unaware that her work culture is exclusionary, which is a) something I personally have had difficulty with, and b) something I see as common among people with a particular social background.

        I feel like one of the main reasons we *have* boundaries about what is and isn’t appropriate at work vs personal life is that it excludes and penalizes people unfairly.

      3. Amaya*

        I mean, you spend most of your waking life at work so keeping it a sterile pleasant corporate environment won’t always happen….

    2. Ellis Bell*

      What you’re saying reminds me a lot about the Geek Social Fallacies, especially #2 and #3, ‘Accept Me as I Am’ and ‘Friendship Before All’. This group 100 pc operates like no one would criticise them, like no one could say “Actually, can we not talk about this?” and the manager is actually trying to protect the culture… why?! As Dust Bunny very astutely pointed out, it’s not even a friendship group! They’re at work! But I think we do take our hangups from school into the workplace sometimes. Sometimes people try to create a little clique of “like us” people and it comes before the discomfort of outsiders, or even the main point of the workplace.

    3. AnonSpeaks*

      I was a weird kid, and I don’t get weird kid vibes from this group at all. I’m surprised so many people have said they’re like outcasts, nerds, etc. I just get stunted mean girls who think they’re sooo crazy and fun. (Which, even if they’re not like that, might be coming across that way to new hires.)

      1. glib_result*

        That’s a good question. I think it was the alien anecdote. Now that I look at the other examples, they don’t have that same feel to me. Most of the rest just sounds, like you said, sooooo crazy and fun. The alien sex convo sounds like “look how extra nerdy and out there we are.”

  69. Jessam*

    I get your dissatisfaction. It feels like a lot of the commenters are scolding you for enjoying your workplace. Most offices are boring as hell, and you have to try to be as boring as everyone else to fit in. Your office sounds rad, and it sucks to hear people tell you “be less yourselves”.

    I think the issue here is considering this the “team culture” instead of “the personality and interests of some people within the team”. If not everyone on the team is on-board, then it isn’t team culture – it’s a clique forcing (even if participation is “optional”) their fun on everyone else. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the lunch-time conversations or the scavenger hunt. They sound really fun! But they shouldn’t be overwhelming the office or having any connection to work-related things like days off. That said, the dead celebrity betting pool should probably be concluded for everyone’s sake.

    None of this is your fault or your responsibility, of course. Your manager has allowed this to get way out of line. She needs to rein it in! If she really doesn’t want to, however, maybe she could start including, like, Myers-Briggs tests in the application materials? NP types are more likely to be okay with this kind of culture. Not sure how legal that would be.

  70. Dust Bunny*

    My workplace is in the process of hiring for a pretty significant position and obviously culture fit is a concern, but it’s not a “write to Ask A Manager” concern. I sort of think that if you find yourself writing to advice columns about something like this, you need to at least consider that the problem might be you: Your culture, your hiring process, your compensation, etc. We’ve had a few hires who didn’t work out over the years but not many, and they weren’t such drastic misfits that it created big-picture worry.

  71. DramaQ*

    My husband says thanks a lot because I asked him the alien sex question after reading this.

    Your boss is asking the wrong question. The question should not be how can we find someone who will fit in it should be how can we make our culture better so people don’t feel like they are outliers.

    Your boss is too concerned with being seen as the cool hip fun boss. She needs to be a manager. End the betting pool and remind people that this is work and certain conversational topics need to be left at home.

    The fact that there is a regular joke that your office is far away from HR for a reason should tell you that the culture has gone beyond “fun” into a clique where everyone is reinforcing each others behaviors.

    I imagine new people are getting a very different view of the company from HR, the recruiter and your boss who is on her bestest behavior when interviewing. Then their first day at the office they walk into coworkers talking about death pools and alien sex.

    Sure you could have people come to lunch with you but that’s still missing out on talent because you are biasing your team towards people who think, act and talk like you. Just because it is “totally fine” to not participate doesn’t mean those people feel that way about it. It can be very isolating for some to have to eat in their office just so they aren’t bombarded with morbid talk and death betting pools every day. Most people work to live not the other way around so it may not be they okay with opting out, it’s they don’t have an option because they need to pay their bills or need the insurance etc so they suck it up and eat in their office.

    It also does not mean that an environment hasn’t been created where unconscious bias is coming into play with promotions and other opportunities.

    This is the same case women make about locker rooms, golf courses and cigar lounges. Sure we “have the choice” to come or not but the atmosphere makes it very clear we’re only being tolerated because we have to be not because we are welcome. So we miss out on the wheeling, dealing and shmoozing that comes with those “voluntary” activities and it is reflected in our pay, project assignments and promotions.

    Deep down you didn’t choose “John” because he was the better pick professionally you picked him because he reflects your personality and group think. Meanwhile Jane has a perspective on the project you may never have considered before and never will because you don’t give Jane much though outside of what she looks like on paper.

    Your boss needs to start forcing your department to be more like the rest of the company and less “fun” if you want to attract and keep talent. You can still have some fun quirks but it still sounds like your department is less “fun” and more stepping back into high school.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I’m just here to upvote the phrase “cool hip fun boss” because that is 100 pc what’s going on here.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          In my profession it’s the colleague who’s the “fun teacher”. It just makes everyone else’s job harder.

  72. Spiderling*

    The original letter made it sound like the celebrity death pool was a spontaneous/casual thing that a coworker put together for fun – but this letter says that the prize is a paid day off. Am I correct that this means management is in on it? If so, that makes it a *much* bigger issue, IMO.

    PTO is part of an employee’s overall compensation package, so that means people can earn extra compensation through gambling (and gambling over morally-questionable subject matter, at that). I can absolutely see why this would turn off new hires: it suggests that perks are earned through being part of the in-crowd (and happening to guess correctly!) rather than work performance.

    LW, I know you think that the better pool is less of an issue because you didn’t even know about it until you’d worked there for awhile – but that actually makes it worse in my opinion. If people are missing out on perks because they weren’t in on a joke, that’s a huge problem.

    1. Spiderling*

      Whoops – that should say “betting pool” in the first sentence of the last paragraph.

  73. Box of Rain*

    Aside for all the other things said, it’s not a kindness to allow younger employee to think this kind of thing is okay. Imagine poor Caitlyn when she gets a job elsewhere and asks about their death betting pool and tells them about the alien “pleasure” (sorry, but this is worse than the original topic description) conversation to get their take.

    Anything Alison says about interns can really be applied to any situation where early career folks are involved.

  74. Jules the 3rd*

    OP, in many ways I would fit your on team (down to the alien orgasm conversation) *if* it were my social group. We get into those kinds of conversations and more. One friend recently ‘inherited’ a stuffed alligator and we’ve been having a lot of laughs about that. I just deleted a couple of other possible friend group stories as ‘nope, work blog, that’s TMI’.

    I don’t do that stuff at work. I only do my harmless weirdnesses at work. Talking about giving an interpretive dance to amuse a coworker? Yes. A belly dance? No, I’m not going to bring that up.

    Death, intestinal distress, and sex are physically and emotionally intimate topics, and you’re usually not at work to get intimate.

    They should not be casual conversations at work. A serious conversation about a relative’s death? Fine. Joking conversations and bets about strangers dying are not. The only place I would say, ‘ok, I get it’ is the professions that use dark humor to deal with work trauma, like EMTs and nursing.

    Aside from that: jokes are the #1 way that abusers set up an atmosphere to cover their abuse. People who are aware of that strategy are going to be doubly uncomfortable with this at work, where it’s harder to step away from it.

    This workplace may not be toxic (though I suspect it is), but it is deeply unprofessional, and when you move on to a new job, make sure you draw your boundaries waaaaaaay short of casual chats about death and sex.

  75. Victoria*

    I could see how it would be hard as a manager to stop the death pool when there is a valuable reward, so my suggestion would be to switch to something more positive, possibly even stating outright you want to move to a more positive, inclusive activity.

    I suggest a sweepstake–they’re not just for sport! We do winner of the Great British Bake Off, as well as various major football and rugby cups. At my work they’re informal and you buy in for £1 and are assigned a team/person, winner taking the pot. You could easily do an opt-in for free with the leave as the prize. This removes the gambling element and the hoping people die so you can have a day off element, and allows for a wider breadth of interests to be covered that may include more colleagues.

    Personally I couldn’t care less about sport normally but I definitely get more interested when there’s something to win!

  76. wounded, erratic stink bugs*

    It feels to me like OP through their questions was misunderstood or at least read with a skewed understanding. I get that, it’s super frustrating when that happens, especially when you’re looking for advice! But… I think the situation here is more, “ask a problematic question, get an unsatisfying answer.” Alison identified that there’s a bigger problem at play than the one you are specifically asking for help with. I’m guessing it’s not satisfying to hear, but it will probably be more helpful in the long run.

    1. Workerbee*

      This. Hopefully OP has the gumption to sit with being uncomfortable at the less positive reactions and dig unto why the workplace is a problem.

  77. LinesInTheSand*

    OP, one social dynamic that is really hard to pin down is when a certain trait/quirk/culture is so pervasive and, for lack of a better word, loud, that it shifts everyone’s focus all by itself.

    This is, incidentally, why I hate puns. I’m trying to say something and all of a sudden someone makes a joke that totally changes the direction of the conversation. Nothing wrong with a good pun at a well-chosen moment, but you have to pick your moments, because a pun totally changes the trajectory of a conversation.

    It sounds like your office culture might be so loud and pervasive that it’s moving everyone’s focus away from the work tasks they’re all in the office to do. I’m willing to bet that everyone who has been there a while can balance it pretty well, but for new hires, it really is aggravating. I don’t want to hear about the cardboard cutout, I just want to know how to file this form. That sort of thing.

  78. I'll Have What She's Having*

    I’ve worked at several places with a Dead Pool, although not company sanctioned, and a group of friends has had a Dead Pool for years. You’re not wishing people dead, and all picks had to be over the age of 21. Was never my deal, but it was/is very popular, particularly with the current Administration.

    Alien orgasms? Amateur hour. Try a best fake orgasm contest, ala When Harry Met Sally.

    You just have to know your audience, especially at work, and make sure anything remotely offensive to anyone else is talked about (or performed) out of office. I don’t find any of these more than just weird, but maybe that says more about me. :)

  79. raincoaster*

    This reminds me, more than anything, of a typical letter to Dr. Nerdlove. Bear with me while I stretch a metaphor.

    “Dear Doc, I am awesome. Quirky. Fun. I get lots of first dates but never any second ones. How can I screen women better?”

    And the good doctor replies, “My dude, have you considered that the problem could be you?”

    If your company culture (or personality) is such that people who initially responded positively CONSISTENTLY back away muttering “Nononononono…” then the problem is you (culture, personality, whatever), and you have to become, well, less repulsive if you want people to stick around.

  81. FunkyMunky*

    yeah I don’t think the explanation moved the needle in any direction. I was going back in mind to some of the conversations I’d have with my team as casual banter, and what I’d hear from the kitchen when a group of people would have lunch there – and your office conversations seem best left for private group chats and subreddits

  82. Saturday Manager*

    One problem with a culture where people seem to enjoy being provocative and outrageous is that it keeps escalating. Pretty soon people are working hard to find topics that entertain the group and the topics get more and more and more inappropriate. It starts at quirky but ends up at legally actionable.

  83. Workerbee*

    Hmm. No, despite all the rephrasing, this office culture still does sound highly problematic. If the cardboard cutout is really the litmus test, it sends a clear and horrid message that anyone who doesn’t think what y’all are doing is just being fun, or, quirky, or whatever consciously shrug-we-can’t-help-being-amazing adjective you want, they get made fun of. And the cardboard cutout is just one of the more visible ways this is done. I would worry about all the covert shit.

    For yes, even if the person in question never finds out, you’d better believe it pervades and taints the atmosphere. People _should_ be running – away from your company.

  84. Orion's Belt*

    OP, I have think your clarification has helped. You have seen the problems for what they are. Since you were asked about how to get people who are okay with the culture, the answer is you don’t. The culture has many problems.

    What you can do is point this out to your boss. Do this as long as you have a good standing with them. Getting a free day off by guessing someone’s death is unfair and inappropriate. Mention the problems of the culture.

  85. jquellen*

    My husband worked for a company that was like this, but it was a double whammy in that it was not only “fun” but also “like family”. They were hoping to hire the same employees as OP’s company – they wanted people with a “sense of humor”.

    Most of their antics were “frat boy lite”, so they didn’t rise to the occasion of hazing but they could be mean spirited. They loved photo shopping employees faces on movie scenes or current event photos. For example, if you got into a mild fender bender on the way to work last week, your face would probably be photo shopped on the image of Tiger Woods next to his overturned vehicle and send out as a mass email to the whole company. The photo shopping was usually initiated by a VP level employee. The expectation was that people would laugh – even if they were the subject – and move on.

    This is problematic on so many levels:
    1) People who found the email distasteful are unlikely to say anything because the VP sent it out.
    2) Many of the company employees were young – recent college grads in their first jobs – who wouldn’t have the experience to understand this behavior was not normal and would not be tolerated at other employers.
    3) Small disrespect gave permission to larger disrespect – The company was banned almost annually from their summer picnic venues because the employees would drink too much and cause property damage. Property damage is definitely not funny.

    There were a lot of people who were tolerant of the culture, but what was probably keeping them there were other policies – very lenient dress code, awesome health insurance, very flexible job hours, etc. I think it is really important to remember just because people don’t complain doesn’t mean the culture is OK.

    The other thing about “fun” cultures, sometimes they just put the “fun” in dysfunctional. Allison has said many times that people who are actively in dysfunction can’t always see how dysfunctional their environment is.

  86. Trivia*

    I think there is some nuance in this, to be the devil’s advocate. I come from a country where relationships at the workplace are much more casual and relaxed. It’s pretty common to eat lunch with your team, or with work friends. Yes, it can result in some clique behaviour, but most people are professional enough to not let that get in the way of work getting done. I’m always surprised in these letters how stiff and inauthentic the office culture in the US seems.
    I’m, also the person who wrote in some weeks ago about maintaining casual relations with my reports as a manager, and I decided not to follow the advice. The friendship wound down on it’s own (though we still chat) and I decided to spread the contact around, like I invited another report to go to the movies with me and my friends, while he invited me to a party. It all works out.

    1. Disagree*

      I do not think that’s the case, though.
      I work with a lot of engineers and physicists with their own special kind of humour. Even though they think they are hilarious and super witty all the time, a lot of the humour is niche-y and relies heavily on inside jokes and special knowledge. It is tiring to try to have a random “normal” lunch conversation that is inclusive of all the people at the table. OP’s situation is not very different.
      They believe their workplace is so funny! and not awkward at all. But people at OP’s workplace do not only cringe, they actively quit. That is so much worse!

  87. Chickadee*

    I’m a biologist, so I’ve read papers like “Good vibrations: a novel method for sexing turtles.” I know a *lot* of weird facts about animal sex and wouldn’t blink an eye at a freezer full of road kill. I also work in a laid back office with googly eyes and hidden gnomes. So believe me when I tell you: your office is taking things too far and is going to become toxic if it hasn’t already. I worked somewhere like that once before and never will again.

    1. Chickadee*

      Most notably: y’all had an in depth, multi-day conversation about alien orgasms and somebody quit. Instead of addressing the culture that made that kind of conversation normal/okay, your office is blaming the person who quit for not fitting company culture. If your office doesn’t already have a sexual harassment problem, it’s going to develop one.

  88. Ohio Duck*

    I really appreciate the Letter Writer/OP coming back to give more details and clarification!

    I see a lot of people in this comment section saying things like, “This sounds just as bad as the first letter. You need to stop explaining and just take Alison’s advice.” But I don’t really see the point of criticizing this letter in this way! OP didn’t have to keep engaging with us and provide more information. It’s their boss’s problem to solve, fundamentally. Why would we discourage follow up letters in this way?

    It doesn’t even come across to me like OP is making excuses or arguing that it’s a good culture; they’re just trying to make sure we have an accurate picture.

    I really love reading updates and engagement from the OPs on this site. Can we try to keep a light touch on the criticism? We get plenty of entertainment from reading the posts and engaging with interesting social situations. There’s no need to be getting our engagement from commenting stuff like “You need to take the advice already and stop making excuses.” The advice is out there. Posters can take it or not depending on what’s realistic for their lives.

  89. The Other Dawn*

    “Your boss also might talk to the people who don’t generally join the group at lunch to find out how they’re experiencing the culture…”

    This right here. There may be a reason why these people are not joining for lunch, other than just wanting to do their own thing. They might feel alienated from the group or ostracized because they’re not participating. Maybe they find the discussions offensive. Or maybe they really just want to do their own thing. But as a manager myself, I’d be worried that the office culture is making them uncomfortable and I’d want to know that.

  90. Spaypets*

    It’s so odd to me seeing the pearl clutching about the dead celebrity pool. I worked at a newspaper with a Ghoul Pool. Admittedly, we were putting up cash, not getting days off when our choice kicked off, so it likely wasn’t management sanctioned, but I don’t recall any of us thinking twice about it. To my knowledge, no one thought it was creepy or morbid, just very cynical, the way reporters usually are.

    The death would come across the wire and someone would ask “Hey, who had so and so in the Ghoul Pool?”

  91. RagingADHD*

    The advice to ask the people who avoid group lunch, never participate in the betting pools, etc, is spot on. I wouldn’t be surprised if this morbid, constantly inappropriate weirdness isn’t actually the team culture at all. It’s a clique that the manager enables, and everyone else tolerates by avoiding them because they can’t afford to quit.

    The manager is giving *extra days off* to people who play along, that people who don’t participate in this supposedly “optional” stuff aren’t eligible for.

    Which would mean that the real team culture isn’t quirky joking – it’s cliquishness and favoritism. And that absolutely needs to change.

  92. Review again*

    I have seen a lot if comments in the original letter that tried to point out problems in your office culture (getting benefits for betting on death, the coworker being made a cardboard instead of managed, cliquish behaviour etc) without focusing on the alien orgasms. Also, here’s AAM’s updated answer. I can only recommend reading them again. And maybe another time.
    Just because you, as part of the in-group, are not having problems, doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems.
    With your first letter, your office came across a bit immature and unnecessarily quirky, but this letter makes me exhausted just reading it.

  93. Aspiring Great Manager*

    Hey OP,

    I think you need to consider that your boss is not really asking your help, but is using this question/task to manipulate you. It is extremely odd for a boss to ask the newest person to contribute to maintaining an office culture that is already causing many to have questions and concerns.

    It’s not super clear whether the manipulation is to get you to double-down in supporting this exclusionary social culture of your office team or if it’s to stop any questioning you may have had in the past or bringing up any concerns.

    But here is the thing, your second letter makes it clear that there are unfair labour practices in your workplace. The fact that an employee can be granted an extra day off for winning a competition that is not sanctioned by the employer is A Big Problem and, whatever culture you are working in, is definitely something that the employer should be concerned about. If nothing else, this is something that HR should be very concerned about. I would also suggest you to consider reporting this issue to HR, if they have any HRness to them, they will look into it, and some things will start to change. If you are nervous about suggesting a change of culture to your boss, an informal chat with HR on this practice could potentially be the trigger to a necessary culture change that maybe could not be ‘blamed’ on you (your mileage may vary with your HR, of course).

    Please be careful! You may be facing a much more skewed situation that it appears. Just taking your description of the dynamics at face value already looks pretty rough, not gonna lie, but when things are a bit off (and in your letters you know that they are!) and you are asked to help continue them/don’t report/don’t let others know, you are also being asked to compromise and give up something.

    (Because I’m a nerd, I’d add that from a sociological perspective, bear with me!, it looks like a sort of indoctrination in getting the newest member of this team to become a Full Member and to defend the culture by training/indoctrinating the next generation, akin to how mothers are unwittingly a major part of the continuation and maintenance of customs that directly harm women, as one example).

    All this to say, please OP look critically and soberly at the data of what is happening around you and look out for yourself. A workplace will throw you under the bus at the first opportunity, do not doubt it so it’s worth always analysing in detail any informal requests from from management+ and considering what burden you are being asked to carry.

    All the best

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