open thread – July 8-9, 2016

by Alison Green on July 8, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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my mom wants me to help with her business for free, asking for a new title instead of a raise, and more

by Alison Green on July 8, 2016

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My mom wants me to help with her business for free

Before I moved out, I often got into arguments with my parents over money. I didn’t mind taking out the trash, doing the laundry, cooking, etc. I had no issue with these tasks. However, my parents would often ask me to do things for free that a professional would normally do. These tasks took huge chunks out of time out of searching for a job, and were not compensated. I was told I was being “greedy” when I brought up payment for things like selling things on eBay or painting a mural for them. When I moved out, I was then busy enough that I could claim time to not do these time consuming, often expensive tasks.

However, I’m recently on break due to summer, and my mother now wants me to help with a business where I will be designing things to be sold. She wants me to do the research on the patents, file them in her name, make the prototypes, etc. but has never once talked about payment for all of these things. I know things are slow, but I really don’t have the time to devote to this, especially if I won’t be compensated whether or not this ever gets off the ground. She seems to think this will take off by the end of summer, but I know these things take time and I don’t want to take time off of school and work for this. Am I being selfish and paranoid, or should I set up some parameters before I devote any more time to this?

Nope, it’s reasonable to say that you can’t take time away from work and school for this. (Obviously, this is heavily cultural though; there are cultures that would absolutely expect you to do it.)

I do think that when you’re living in your parents’ house, you should try to be as accommodating as possible to requests for help, even if it’s the sort of thing that you described (i.e., beyond normal chores). It’s part of acknowledging how much your parents have put into supporting you over the years. But it’s not reasonable for them to expect that you’ll do professional-type work for them if it would come at the expense of your own job or school.

That said, I think you’re muddying the waters by asking to be paid. It’s hard to say you don’t have time for this and then say you’ll find the time if they pay you. I’d stick with explaining that work and school aren’t leaving you with enough time to take on anything additional, and perhaps offering to help with a less time-consuming element if you can (like “I can do X and Y, but I’d need to limit it to that”).

2. I got chastised for not letting a company know I accepted a different job offer

I recently applied to several admin jobs and was offered a position a couple days ago, which I accepted.

One of the companies I applied to just phoned me to invite me to an interview. I thanked her for the invite but said I would like to withdraw my application as I have accepted another position elsewhere. The woman then questioned when I had found out this news and said I should have notified her. She seemed a bit annoyed.

Should I have notified her? And do I now need to go back and inform all the other companies I applied to say that I’ve found a job so they need to withdraw my application? I applied to a lot of places, so it would seem like a bit of a waste of my time especially if they were not planning to shortlist me anyway.

This situation has actually happened to me in the past, and the person on the other end of the phone just said fair enough and best of luck in your new job. So I’m a bit confused, what is the right thing to do in this situation?

Nope, don’t let one rude person throw you off. It’s absolutely not expected that you’ll notify every company you’ve applied to when you accept an offer somewhere else. If you’ve been interviewing with someone and are still in their process, it’s considerate to let them know so that they’re not still factoring you into their candidate pool. But even if you didn’t, they shouldn’t chew you out for that. And places that you’ve only submitted an application to? No one expects that. (I’d be interested in knowing how vigilant that person is about letting applicants know when they’ve been rejected…)

3. Should I chase down the stuff my new boss said I’d get before my start date?

I’m starting a new job in three weeks — I’m currently halfway through my six-week notice period. When I was offered the job, I was told to expect a hard copy of my contract in the post, look forward to being invited to for team drinks prior to my start date, and keep the Sunday before I start free for a company event (we’re an events agency, so this isn’t unreasonable).

So far, I’ve received none of these. I contacted my new boss when I handed in my notice to confirm my start date and heard nothing, so chased a week later and got back a “Yes, yes, all good, see you on your start date.” I’m cautious about chasing the other things again as I don’t want to be pushy, but I’m starting to feel cut off from a job I was originally really excited about. What would you do?

Don’t worry about following up on the drinks; it they forget about that, it’s no big deal. Do you have an electronic version of your contract? If so, that’s probably enough, but if you don’t, it’s reasonable to follow up on that. If you have a contact in HR, I’d try that person rather than your new boss, but if you don’t, I’d email the boss and say, “Sorry to bug you! I wanted to check on two things: I know you’d said to expect a hard copy of my contract in the mail, and I wanted to check on whether it’s gone out since I haven’t received it. Also, I’m holding (date) for (event) but don’t have details on it yet. Glad to attend if someone will send me info! Otherwise, I’ll just happily plan to see you on (start date).”

4. Asking for a new title in lieu of a raise

I’ve been at my current job for a year and love it. I’ve struggled with learning the business, which is completely new, and received an overall “average” review from my boss (the president of the company) last year. Nothing in the review was unexpected. We have goals set in place for the next year that are perfectly achievable, and I am confident that he is happy that I’m here and I have a good future at the company.

This is a small company and I’m the only full-time recruiter. There is one part-time recruiter – the owner’s husband – who doesn’t report to me.

My boss mentioned that we’ll have a follow-up meeting soon to discuss a raise based on my review. The thing is, money isn’t that important to me. I’m very well paid for my position, and am happy with the current salary. I’d much rather receive a new title, either Senior Recruiter, Lead Recruiter, or Recruiting Manager – the person who formerly held my position was the Recruiting Manager. Would it be unrealistic to ask for a new title in lieu of a raise this year? If not, how would I phrase it?

Nope, that’s totally fine to do! Small companies are often delighted to save money on raises if a title bump will do instead. Obviously, you don’t want to ask for a title that’s wildly out of whack with what you do, or that would cause weird inequities elsewhere in the company structure (like a change that would make you a VP when other people doing work similar to your level are all associates), but in this case it sounds pretty reasonable — especially since there’s precedent for the title in your role. That said, any reason not to ask for both?

5. My part-time job has turned full-time against my will

I started a new job about two months ago, and I was hired as a part-time employee, with an agreed upon four days, approximately 35-hour week. As of last month or so, I’ve been scheduled for approximately 45 hours a week, which is clearly overtime. I’m getting overtime pay, which is fine but I never agreed to the increase in hours. I’m still considered part-time, and as far as I know this company doesn’t have HR or offer benefits (which I’m also fine with) so a full-time promotion would do very little. I’ve hinted to my boss that I was expecting more time off than I’m currently getting, but that went unanswered. What I really want is my part-time schedule back. How do I get that now that the overtime has become the norm?

Stop hinting! Be direct. Say this: “When I was hired on, it was a part-time job — 35 hours a week. I was happy to help out with extra hours this past month, but I can’t continue that schedule permanently. Can we get me back to the part-time schedule we initially set?”

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how do I ask references about a candidate’s personality?

by Alison Green on July 7, 2016

A reader writes:

I am a manager at a nonprofit and hire part-time workers to work in recreation-type centers across the city. Since they are working with kids, adults, volunteers, stakeholders, etc., strong interpersonal skills are part of what we look for. However, interviews make people nervous, and it can be a little hard to judge those skills in interview (but not impossible — we generally do a pretty good job).

My question is about checking references and getting managers to talk about interpersonal skills with us. For example, we recently interviewed someone who was GREAT on paper and quite good during the phone screen, but was just … odd in person. She swayed/rocked nervously when answering, sort of closed her eyes while thinking, and kept her hands very tightly clasped, almost like she was wringing them. It was enough that I was sure this was at least somewhat akin to her regular demeanor at work, but her answers and resume were solid, so I moved forward to the reference check just in case. No one would give me anything other than glowing reviews about her interpersonal skills, and it sounds terrible now that I’m typing it out, but I just wasn’t convinced. If managers had said “yeah, Mary can come across a little oddly on first impression, but she has xyz strengths that helped her build strong relationships,” then I actually would have had my mind put more at ease.

We ended up not hiring Mary for a few reasons, but mainly because it just felt too risky based on our gut reaction to her.

But since this comes up every once in awhile, how should I handle situations like this? How frank can I be when asking past managers about social skills? Can I say “Mary came across a little oddly in our conversation, like she was extremely nervous; is that something that has been an issue in the past?” That question is not well-worded obviously, but I’m just having trouble thinking of some more direct questions to get at this issue!

Yes, you can absolutely ask references about interpersonal skills! Many jobs require a particular type of social skill — whether it’s being able to quickly build rapport with people, or establishing trust with a skeptical audience, or putting people at ease, or dealing effectively with strong personalities, or all sorts of other things.

The key is to think about what’s truly needed in the role. You don’t want to fall into the trap of rejecting someone great because she doesn’t seem outgoing enough if the role is, say, doing data entry by herself all day. In other words, make sure it’s not just about whether or not you like someone’s personality, but about what traits are (and aren’t) linked with excelling in the job.

You can define that pretty broadly; excelling in the job will usually mean not being an arrogant jerk, interrupting people, being rude, and so forth. You just don’t want to get overly broad and reject someone for being shy or offbeat or quirky or otherwise different from the rest of you when it really won’t matter. Sometimes people run amok with this and reject people for simply being different from the rest of their team, justifying it as a matter of team cohesion. You want to watch out for that, because that’s how you end up with homogenous teams with group-think, as well as very little diversity of race, age, socioeconomic background, etc.

Anyway, as for what to say to references, it’s fine to be pretty direct. I probably wouldn’t say “Mary came across a little oddly,” but it would be fine to say, “Mary seemed like she might have been quite nervous in our interview. Did you ever observe nerves being in an issue in her work or in her relationships with colleagues?”

You can also ask things like, “I had trouble getting a sense of what Mary is like to work with day to day. What can you tell me about her personality and her relationships with others at work?” Or “the person in this role will have to establish warm relationships pretty quickly with a variety of personalities. Can you tell me about times you’ve seen Mary do that?”

In some cases, too, it can make sense to ask the candidate about your concern directly. In this case, if you did a second interview with Mary, you could dig into times in the past when she’s had to use interpersonal skills at work, build relationships with people, and so forth. In other cases (although maybe not this one), you can just name the concern for the candidate and see what they say. For example, if you were worried that a candidate was too soft-spoken to be able to successfully deal with your office’s domineering personalities, you could say something like, “This job requires fielding some pretty difficult personalities. You seem pretty soft-spoken and I wonder how you’d approach that.” You might end up hearing that your very soft-spoken candidate has tons of compelling stories about doing that successfully in the past … or the ensuing conversation might solidify your worries. Either way, you’ll get better information by naming your concern and asking about it.

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why video conferencing sucks, how to fend off a time-wasting colleague, and more

by Alison Green on July 7, 2016

Over at QuickBase’s Fast Track blog today, I take a look at several interesting work-related stories in the news right now: why video conferencing kind of sucks, a great piece from HBR about how to fend off a time-wasting colleague, and more. You can read it here.

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interview with a professional belly dancer

by Alison Green on July 7, 2016

Recently a commenter here mentioned that she used to be a professional belly dancer, and I wanted to know more. She kindly agreed to be interviewed, and here’s our conversation.

So you were a professional belly dancer! How did you get into that line of work? 

I started belly dancing classes on a whim at the YMCA. I had done tap, jazz, and ballet all my life up until college, and afterwards I would take the occasional dance class here and there recreationally. Belly dance just captured me from the very start and I fell in love with it. I wound up doing some student and non-professional performances at dance events, and was eventually asked by a pro dancer in the area to perform with her at her weekly restaurant gig. My success there led to booking private parties both with her and on my own, and around that time I also started teaching classes through a local park and rec department. I started performing professionally in 2005, and in 2007 I took it full-time.

I did eventually go back to having a day job in 2010 for financial reasons (it’s very difficult to make a living at belly dance unless you’re a well-known national or international instructor) but continued to perform professionally until 2014. In 2015, I got a new and more demanding job, so I stopped teaching then as well and am currently back to being a hobbyist. So basically 10 years of being a professional dancer.

What was the job like? Did you work through an agency or on your own? At events?

99% of the time it was wonderful! I always worked on my own or through referrals from other dancers. Most of my gigs were booked through my website, which I designed myself. I performed at public events like community festivals and fairs, did educational presentations at colleges and corporate events, and performed at private parties in people’s homes or banquet rooms. I also did lesson/performance combos for bachelorette and wedding showers.

I once got to perform at a Turkish-American wedding where the groom’s family had all come over from Turkey for the wedding, and elaborate Sweet 16 party that was right out of MTV. I performed for the 100th birthday party of a woman who had traveled all over the world. But mostly I was hired by wives to perform at their husband’s birthday parties as a surprise! I always kept things 100% tasteful and focused on all of the guests and not just the guest of honor. I especially loved getting children up to dance with me, which made of the more concerned looking guests realize that my act was family-friendly all the way.

I never performed for bachelor parties or any all male events with one exception. Another dancer had previously performed at some sort of ceremonial dinner for the Masons, where they hire entertainment that might have existed in Medieval times. She said they were highly professional and respectful, so I took the gig but brought my husband along with me just to be on the safe side. My friend was right and the performance passed without incident. It was really weird when at the end of my set, someone stood up and yelled “Huzzah to the King for this wonderful entertainment!”

What did you like best about the work?

As far as performing, I loved bringing something special to people’s celebrations and making them even better. At one man’s 50th birthday party, I got him and his 4-year-old granddaughter dancing together, and his wife said that they’d remember it forever as he was usually very staid and serious. An 80-year-old gentleman serenaded me after my performance at his party and his entire family was in tears. In general my goal for every gig was to come in, sprinkle fabulous all over the place, then leave with the guests happier than before I arrived.

Teaching was also very rewarding for me. I built up a great student base and eventually started my own dance troupe which grew to 10 women. Many students were in a dance class for the first time, and I really loved helping them gain confidence and an understanding of their bodies and how they work. I also really enjoyed passing on my extensive knowledge of Middle Eastern culture surrounding the dance, especially in a very conservative white suburban area where most of my students’ exposure to the Middle East was its negative portrayal on the news.

What do you think it is about dancing that makes people so happy?

I think it’s the energy that a dancer gives off when they’re in the zone and loving every minute of it. It’s infectious; if a performer feels beautiful, powerful, and graceful, people watching will pick up on that vibe and internalize it. And when you’re a talking about a belly dancer? A lot of people who wouldn’t normally do so would get up and dance with me, I think because they figured when would they ever have a chance to dance with one? Unless you’re involved with the community or know someone who is, most people will very rarely get to see a live belly dance performance.

What was the most challenging thing about the work?

The most challenging part was battling misconceptions — that belly dancers are strippers or prostitutes (not that I have a problem with sex workers, but it wasn’t what I or most professional belly dancers do), and also that belly dancing is easy and cheap. I spent thousands of dollars on classes, workshops and DVDs, pushing my mid 30’s to 40’s body harder than ever before physically. People would be shocked at the price for a 10 minute “Bellygram,” but they didn’t get that they were paying for more than that — that price included my experience, trained technique, and very expensive costumes/props/stage makeup. Oh, and mileage – you wouldn’t believe how many clients were appalled that mileage was only included within a 30-minute drive time! I knew so many dancers who were so desperate for gigs they didn’t even realize they were losing money by driving over an hour, but my background in traditional business settings refused to let myself make that mistake.

People are so weird about pricing. When people were surprised by your prices, did they usually come around and pay it anyway, or just go away muttering darkly to themselves?

Well, the sad thing about pricing is that there’s always someone out there who’s willing to dance for free or close to it. Undercutting is a huge issue in the belly dance community, much like writing, graphic art, musicians, etc. I think in those cases people often get what they pay for, but have to learn that lesson the hard way. Most of the time I was able to win them over, but then you had the ones who thought it would cost $25 to hire me to dance for an hour and there was just no way I could convince them their budget was out of whack.

I always valued my time highly and was never upset to turn down a gig for a cheap client. The dancers I knew who took them often found that those jobs took place in less than ideal circumstances and were often treated less than respectfully. By sticking to my pricing and presenting myself as a professional that was well worth it, I believe I got a lot of quality gigs where I was treated wonderfully by clients. I have very few horror stories compared to some dancers I know.

What didn’t you know when you started that ended up surprising you?

How expensive it is to be a working professional belly dancer. You can get costumes for cheap on Ebay, sure. But they’re ill fitting and fall apart easily, and in some cases are unprofessionally revealing. A brand new designer costume is anywhere from $600 to well over $1000, and even the smaller houses are a minimum of $300 unless you’re a talented seamstress and can make your own. Good finger cymbals (real musical instruments and not cheap props) are anywhere from $40 – $80. Silk veils are usually around $50-60, and they need to coordinate with the colors of your different costumes (I have a drawerful that’s easily worth over $1,000). Local classes are usually reasonable, but workshops are in the $40-70 range for big national and international instructors. Not to mention traveling if you don’t live in a fairly large city where these instructor’s workshops are hosted. Many dancers who are serious about their craft will even travel to the Middle East to study with the dancers who live and work there.

I was also surprised at how rich and varied the music and dance of the Middle East is. I specialized in Egyptian style and delved deeply into different folkloric styles like Ghawazee, Saidi, and Beladi, just to name a few under that umbrella. And of course, there are hundreds more when you account for other countries and regions of the Middle East. I think we get accustomed to thinking of the Middle East as one homogeneous area, when in fact it’s incredibly diverse.

I suspect I’m not the only person in the world who dances only when I’ve had a few cocktails. What advice do you have for the non-dancers of the world?

The old chestnut of a saying is true — “Dance like no one is watching.” Because in most cases, they’re really not! I would have so many students nervous in classes or workshops who were terrified of looking stupid, but I would assure them that everyone else was so wrapped up in getting the material down they were hardly paying attention to anyone else. And if anyone is judging you, they’re not really someone who’s opinion you should care about because they’re missing the point entirely.

My husband is a terrible dancer technique-wise, but when we’re on the dance floor at a wedding he’s my own personal Gene Kelly, because I just love dancing with him. When it comes to recreational dancing, emotion trumps sick dance moves every single time.

You’re now a part-time romance writer! How did you get into that?

I started fiction writing very late in life – in 2010, and I’m 45 years old now. Believe it or not, I started out writing fanfiction for a TV show and pairing I was obsessed with. They weren’t a couple according to show canon, but I has so many ideas about how they could/should get together that I started writing about them and posting my stories online. At one time I was one of the most well-known authors for that pairing, but it all fell apart when the show took a very disappointing turn and I lost interest. By that point I’d been writing for three years and didn’t want to give it up, and at the same time didn’t want to pick up another fandom because the other had been so disappointing in the end. I basically decided I wanted to create my own characters, so that I’d be in control of everything that happened to them.

So in 2013, I wrote an original novel called Under the Knife, which I published as a serial work in progress on LiveJournal over the course of a year. It’s the story of two chefs who fall in love while participating in a televised cooking competition along the lines of Top Chef or Hell’s Kitchen. It got a small but loyal following, and when it was finished I did some additional editing and submitted it to a small niche publisher who accepted it in about three days. Under the Knife will be officially released by Less Than Three Press on July 20. People can get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and pretty much anywhere books are sold online. It’s more than I ever dreamed could happen and I’m just thrilled to pieces! I also just submitted a novella to a collection and am about halfway through the first draft of my second novel.

Of course I have to ask this — do you talk to coworkers about that side business? I bet people are really interested if so.

My coworkers and most of the people in my life except those I’m closest to don’t know about my writing. This is because I write male/male gay romance, so it’s a little controversial of a topic to bust out in the breakroom. Also, while my writing’s not exactly a smut-fest, there are a few intimate scenes and they’re rather explicit. I have clients and coworkers who are on the conservative side so I really err with caution, and also write under a pseudonym. It’s tough when really exciting things happen; I got a positive review in Publisher’s Weekly and USA Today requested an advance copy of the book from Net Galley this month, and I was DYING to shout it from the rooftops. But I doubt I’ll make a living as a writer, so I need to play things close to the chest. I already did the starving artist thing with belly dance and I’m not eager to repeat the experience. If I sell a million copies though, all bets are off! :D

Read an update to the interview here.

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I can hear my coworkers getting chewed out, interviews on casual Fridays, and more

by Alison Green on July 7, 2016

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. I can hear my coworkers getting chewed out

I’m about three months in at my first job out of college. I’ve had a hard time adjusting to certain things, though reading your blog has helped immensely. The open office concept is the worst. Those of us in the cube farm can hear what goes on in the offices and vice versa. This is distracting but not a huge deal.

However, hearing everyone receiving negative feedback out in the open has me very concerned. Recently a manager blasted a coworker for not finishing a project. He didn’t close her office door. I’ve heard another of my coworkers called an idiot and get chewed out (very loudly) by another manager. Even in my previous retail job, feedback was given quietly and calmly, with no yelling or spectators. Is this normal? I haven’t been the subject of a rant yet, but it concerns me. Is there anything I can do as a relative newbie? (Background info, my manager is higher on the org chart and I’ve never heard him behave this way, but I get projects from the other managers.)

No, it’s not normal. It’s true that in open offices, you’re going to overhear people getting feedback — but those should be calm, constructive conversations, and anything really serious should happen in private.

Yelling, chewing people out, and calling someone an idiot are things that aren’t generally okay at work; if they feel like the norm in your office, there’s some real dysfunction going on. Managers who do those things typically do them because they have no idea how to manage effectively; good managers don’t need to treat people that way because if there are problems in someone’s work, they have much more effective tools to deal with it.

If anyone does end up treating you that way, I have some advice here about how to deal with it — but the more important thing is not to let this mess with your ideas of what’s normal. Terrible management has a way of reprogramming your norms so that you start to accept really awful treatment and expect it at your next job. Make sure you don’t let that happen.

2. Should I ask or tell my manager when I’m taking time off?

I have been in my position (graduate coordinator) for almost four years. Until about a year ago, I had a different supervisor (from hell). Now I am very blessed to have a wonderful supervisor. She’s fair, she’s kind, she treats our team very well, and we adore her.

With Old Supervisor, we’d have to ask for time off. We’d also have to explain why, and if she didn’t think it was a good enough reason, she’d deny it or say she’d think about it and then get back to you the day of or the day before you needed. (She treated us all like we were children on many, many levels. She micromanaged to the extreme). New Supervisor treats us like adults.

Last week, when I asked for an hour off to go to a doctor’s appointment, she laughed and said “of course,” and joked that it’s not like she’d ever say “no, you can’t go to the doctor” or take whatever time off (I’ve seen this with other members of my team – she really does treat us like adults who know what they’re doing).

Should I ask her (like last week) “can I take this hour / day off” or should I say “I’m taking the day / hour off”? I don’t want to be rude or inappropriate, but since this was the second time my supervisor joked about the permission aspect, I feel I need a new approach.

In professional jobs, it’s pretty normal to manage your own time and just give your manager a heads-up about times you’ll be away — as in “I’m leaving at 2 on Tuesdayfor a doctor’s appointment.” In some cases, people will phrase it this way: “I’m planning to take the 5th and 6th off — let me know if that poses any issues.”

There are managers who want to be asked for permission, but they tend to be (a) overly controlling managers who don’t trust that they’ve hired competent adults or (b) in jobs where scheduling and coverage is a big thing that needs to be managed centrally.

3. Interviews on casual Fridays

I know there’s bit a lot of chatter lately about dress codes and what is appropriate wear. But what about doing interviews on casual Fridays? As the one being interviewed, I always make it a point to arrive my interview nicely and well dressed – as is expected. But on a few occasions, the interview was on a casual Friday for the hiring manager/HR so there I am in my best and there they are in their jeans. This made me feel awkward – my point of view was, I took the time to look my best for you, could you not also try to present yourselves nicely to me?

I expressed this once to a friend and she said, “Why should they give up their casual day for just an interview?” I countered that they could bring a change of clothes and at least look nice for the interviews.

In the end, it doesn’t change how I will behave during the interview and I didn’t feel that the interviewers were any different than others where they were in usual office wear, but I did feel that it placed me at a weird disadvantage. What’s your opinion on this?

It’s pretty common for interview candidates to be dressed more nicely than their interviewers. It’s just … how interviews go. Rightly or wrongly, candidates are expected to wear suits to interviews in most industries (not all — more on that here). If it’s a convention in your field, you’re expected to adhere to it even if your interviewers are dressed more casually.

You’re right that it’s not particularly fair, but neither are a bunch of other things about interviewing (for example, as a candidate you can’t take a call in the middle of an interview, but your interviewer can). The process is rife with double standards! I’m not endorsing that, but it’s the reality of how it usually works.

4. Applying for a different internal role right after getting a promotion

At my performance review a couple of weeks ago, I was told I would be getting a promotion: new (way better) title, 12% raise, more creative work, the whole deal. However, it won’t begin until the start of our company’s new fiscal year, which is about 2.5 months away.

Now, I’ve just found out that someone in another department at my company is retiring (I don’t know exactly when), and there will be an opening. I’d really like to apply for this job. It’s in a department I’d rather work in and am more skilled in, with a much better manager. The people in this department tend to stay for years, if not decades. So the chance to work in this department may not come up again for a long, long time.

Am I obligated to stay in my current department and take the promotion in a couple of months? Would it be considered bad form to apply for this new position (and to take it if it’s offered to me)? If I do apply, should I let my current manager know beforehand? Of course, I don’t want to cause any bad blood with my current department or manager, but I would so much rather be in this other department!

Ooof, this is tricky and depends a lot on your manager and whether she takes this stuff personally. If your manager is reasonable, you should be able to say something like this: “I’m really excited for this promotion — it sounds great to me in lots of ways. But I want to be candid with you that hearing that the X role in department Y is opening up has thrown me — I’d love to do that work long-term. I know how rarely they have openings there and I couldn’t forgive myself if I didn’t throw my hat in the ring. If it doesn’t work out, I’d remain incredibly enthusiastic about the role here. But I wanted to talk with you about it before doing anything.”

The key here is to do what you can to prevent your manager from worrying that you’ll see the promotion as a consolation prize if you don’t get the other job or that you’ll have one foot out the door.

5. When should I mention that I’m in the military reserves?

After weeks of applications, I finally landed a phone interview with a company that I am very excited about. The work fits my background perfectly with a lot of room to grow, and the company is doing great things. Needless to say, I’m pretty excited about this opportunity. My phone interview was yesterday. Everything went very well, and I am scheduled for a Skype interview (I’m out of state) next week.

The problem? I am a drilling reservist. In and of itself not an issue, but I realized last night that it isn’t listed anywhere on my resume and I forgot to mention it in my cover letter. Should I email them right away? Should I bring it up in the follow up interview? I don’t it to look like I was intentionally hiding the information and am not sure how to bring it up.

Nope, there’s no reason to bring it up at this stage. It’s illegal for an employer to factor that information into their hiring decision, so it’s not something you need to raise now as they can’t use the information anyway (but like bringing up pregnancy at this stage, hearing it may unconsciously bias them). I’d wait until you have an offer and mention it then — and frame it as “by the way, I need to let you know I’m a military reservist” rather than “will this be okay?” since the law requires them to allow you time off for reserve duty.

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should I express my frustration with this interview process?

by Alison Green on July 6, 2016

A reader writes:

I submitted an application for an early career nonprofit sector fellowship program on April. The website for the program stated that applications received by that date would have a decision by May 16. A couple weeks later, I was offered a first interview with a program alumna and was provided with her contact info.

I got in touch with her but didn’t hear back for a few days, so I sent a second email cc’ing the program manager. The alumna then replied, we set up the interview for May 2, it went well, and she told me when to expect to hear back from the program manager.

That timeframe came and went, but I was busy with other applications, and on May 23 I received a general update email on a major change to the program structure, but nothing about my application. I also noticed at this time that the final application deadline had been pushed back from June 1 to June 24. Based on those two facts, I assumed, perhaps stupidly, that they were just busy with other priorities.

I admit I also stalled because the program was not my first choice at the time, but by June 13 I decided I ought to check in. I got a swift response saying they “had a bit of a glitch in communication” with the alumna I interviewed with, thanking me for reaching out, and inviting me to a second round interview with the program manager, which took place June 22.

On June 30, I got a form email notifying me that I’ve been waitlisted for the program while they await decisions from other applicants. I also got an email from the program manager saying, “I’ve placed you on our waitlist in (different city) for now due to the fact that we are nearly full and don’t have too many available slots.” The email also suggested that the manager of the same program in a different city thought there might be a good fit for me there.

I just moved to my current city and signed a lease, so that’s no longer an option. It’s hard not to feel that I might well have been accepted to the program earlier on if there hadn’t been the long delay between my first and second interviews, which I acknowledge I could have done something about sooner, but I think it was also the program manager’s responsibility to check in with the alumna interviewer and not just let my application get forgotten.

I’m very tempted to tactfully express this sentiment to the program manager, not to try to win myself a spot in the program, but just to hold them to account, I guess. It certainly doesn’t reflect well on their professional development component when their alumna interviewer and program manager do such a poor job handling an application, either.

It’s also hard to see myself working with this program manager for a year after all this, certainly if I do express my frustration. On the other hand, if I get offered a spot in the program after being waitlisted, I’ll feel like I don’t have much leverage to push for the type of fellowship project I want, unless the program manager were to acknowledge that I was treated unfairly.

I still don’t feel totally certain about joining the program without a better idea of the options for my fellowship project, but I don’t have any other real prospects right now, and I’ve been on the job serach for three months now, so I feel like it would be a bad decision to pass it up. The program doesn’t start until September, so if it turned out that there were no good fellowship project options for me and a better offer came along, I wouldn’t feel too bad about backing out of it, especially now, even though I know it’s still wrong! Then again, I’m already so tired of job searching and I have so many other things on my plate, and it seems unlikely that anything significantly better will turn up.

What do you think? Should I express my frustration now? Wait and see and only do so if I don’t get into the program? Or just bite back my frustration (once again), hope they shape up their process, and focus on other applications?

Nooooo, do not express your frustration.

First, you don’t know that your assumptions are correct. I don’t see anything here indicating that you would have had stronger chances if you’d been interviewed earlier. It’s possible, but far from definite, based on the facts you’ve laid out.

The program alum who first interviewed you — it’s not a big deal that she didn’t respond to your initial email for a few days. A few days of delay in this kind of thing is pretty normal, or at least definitely not an outrage. (Also, it sounds like she’s an alum of the program, not an employee of it, which makes it all the more understandable that she’s not dropping everything to get you a same-day response.)

The fact that you didn’t hear back from the program manager by the time you were told that you would — very, very normal in hiring. In fact, it’s probably more normal for those timelines to be missed than for them to be adhered to. That’s not great, obviously, but it’s not damning either. This stuff just tends to take longer than people think it will.

They did acknowledge a glitch in communications with the alum interviewer, and it’s possible that that meant “we never heard back from her until we checked in with her, and meanwhile we’d already moved forward with other candidates.” But, you know, glitches happen. They’re not reason to express frustration to the hiring manager. It’s understandable to be frustrated by them, certainly, but not to unload that frustration on the employer. Doing that would make it sound like you felt they owed you a spot or a fairer shake, and they don’t. They get to run their program however they want, even with glitches and even with unfairness.

Whenever I say things like this, I’m always concerned that it will sound like “eat whatever crap an organization throws at you and never speak up about it.” But that’s very much not what I mean. There are lots of situations where it’s reasonable to speak up or push back or say “this isn’t okay with me.” But when you want the best outcome for yourself, your calculation needs to take into account your relative power in the situation (in this case, it’s low since you’re both early career and a program applicant they’re already okay with not accepting), how the complaint will likely come across to the person you make it to (in this case, it will seem unwarranted and a bit demanding), and how egregious the situation really is (in this case, not terribly).

I know that’s frustrating — really frustrating — but assuming you want to get the best outcome for yourself, you probably need to forego the momentary satisfaction of telling them that you take issue with how they’ve managed their own hiring process. There’s too much chance they’d just write you off as naive/demanding/off-base, and that doesn’t sound aligned with what you want for yourself here.

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about those interns fired for petitioning for a more casual dress code…

by Alison Green on July 6, 2016

Last week’s post about the interns who were fired for petitioning for a better dress code got a huge amount of attention across the internet and beyond — it ended up getting covered by the Today Show, the Daily Mail, and a whole bunch of other places. Much of the commentary on it was of the “kids today” hand-wringing variety.

Today at Inc., I’ve reprinted the piece but with an intro about the internet’s response. You can read it here.

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my coworker treats me like an incompetent child

by Alison Green on July 6, 2016

A reader writes:

I have been in a new job since March. Due to my past experience and industry knowledge, I went from part-time to full-time quickly, and have also received a small raise recently as well. This happened in a little over a month, when I was informed it could take a year. I receive good feedback from the company on a regular basis. I have past experience in a similar role, in the same industry for seven years, as well as being in supervisory positions in customer service in another industry for 10 years before I was laid off. Basically, management thinks I am doing a good job, and I have lots of experience.

My problem is my coworker/peer. She has been with the company doing the same job for nearly a decade. She provides lots of unnecessary personal feedback. She knows my background, and that I have a lot of experience in my current role. I have spoken to her about the issue many times.

Examples of her unwanted/unneeded advice: making sure I put my chair under the conference room table after meetings (told me this after I pushed my chair under the table), greet customers with a smile, wash my personal cup out after use, how to use basic office equipment, close the door behind me, break requirements (she is wrong), when to take lunch, as well as to follow certain steps that go against the training I received from management. I promise you, I do not need to be told to wash my cup or push my chair, or when to take lunch, but the advice/opinions come anyway. It is not like these things are told to me when needed; they are just offered even after the tasks are completed correctly! It is said in a condescending fashion. She starts her advice with “I know I am not your boss…”

She insists there are policies or procedures that do not exist, and I have confirmed with management that there is no set policy. She also offers poor customer service advice and gets upset/angry when I ignore it. (For example: Don’t be nice to the vendors, you need to be demanding and pushy….don’t try to build business relationships….customers are never right, etc.)

I thought the issue was handled a month ago when we had a lengthy discussion about it. It started again just the other day, and I just don’t feel I should need to go over this every month.

I need to work closely with her, as she is a wealth of information regarding our vendors and clients that is not in our system! Suggesting we put her information in the programs designed to hold the info has been met with resistance from her — “stop trying to change things”.

Am I going to have to constantly deal with her issues, and remind her of our talk to back off of the constant personal advice? Typically I would ignore it but I need to work with her and that means dealing with her bad advice and treating me like a child. I wish I could distance myself from her, but that is not going to happen. How can I help her understand the difference between helpful and nuisance? She has provided me some wonderful beneficial vendor/client info, but the personal advice is wrong, horrible, and demeaning. Is she threatened by me?

Help me nip this in the bud! She is embarrassing me in front of clients! There’s no HR team. It’s a small family-owned seven-person company, and only three of us are not family.

Talk to her again.

I agree with you that it’s ridiculous that the first conversation didn’t solve it, but I wouldn’t assume that having to have a second talk means you’ll need to do it monthly. In fact, more often than not, handling stuff like this takes more than one conversation because the person’s weird ways are so deeply ingrained.

Since it’s a second conversation, though, you can escalate the seriousness of your tone, and that and the repetition mean that it’s possible it will stick this time. I’d say this: “Jane, we talked last month about how I want you to stop giving me unsolicited advice about how to do my job. It’s continuing to happen. I do not want you telling me to push in my chair or wash my mug or when to take lunch. When we talked last month, you said you understood and agreed to stop but you haven’t. What’s going on?”

After that, if it continues, you can address it right in the moment by saying, “This is an example of what we talked about.”

You can also shut it down by just giving her a natural response to ludicrous guidance. For example:

Coworker: Make sure to push your chair in!
You: What an odd thing for you to tell me.

Coworker: I know I’m not your boss, but you shouldn’t be taking your break right now.
You: I’m going to manage my breaks on my own. Thanks.

Coworker: You’re being too nice to vendors.
You: I’ve got this covered.
Coworker: Well, I know I’m not your boss, but I would suggest being pushier.
You: I’m confident about how I’m handling it, but I’ll let you know if I ever want to talk it over. But otherwise, please assume I’ve got it.

And when this gets exhausting, you can also feel free to simply ignore her. Pretend you don’t even hear her. Pretend she’s talking to an imaginary grade-schooler who accompanies her everywhere. Or just give her an exasperated look, like the one you might give an extremely annoying sibling, and otherwise ignore her.

Will this have repercussions for your relationship with her? Quite possibly. But what she’s doing now is already impacting your relationship with her, so you might as go ahead and try to address it.

Also, if you’re not already making a point of keeping your manager up-to-date about the many awesome things you’re hopefully doing in your new job, start doing that. If your coworker complains that you’re not taking her advice, you want your boss to have a solid foundation of seeing that you know what you’re doing.

Relatedly, I wouldn’t worry at all about not having an HR department to intervene. This isn’t something you’d normally take to HR anyway; it’s more of an interpersonal issue that ideally you’d handle on your own. But at some point, if the efforts above don’t work and it’s interfering with your ability to do your job, it might make sense to ask your manager to tell her to knock it off — but you’ll want to have tried to handle it yourself first.

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client accidentally said rude things about my team in a voicemail, what happened to thank-you notes, and more

by Alison Green on July 6, 2016

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Client accidentally said rude things about my team in a voicemail to me

I recently had a voicemail from a dissatisfied client with whom we frequently collaborate. She had called to notify me of a mistake made by my department, but at the end neglected to hang up her phone properly before commenting on my team’s lack of intelligence and other similarly unflattering remarks.

Of course I plan to follow up with her on a course of action to address her initial complaint, but should I make any mention of the end of her message? What do I say?

Assuming that I’m reading your letter correctly and her remarks at the end weren’t intended for you to hear, I’d just take it as useful background information — now you know that you have a client with real concerns about your team. That’s useful to know and can guide your response in ways other than just directly telling her that you heard that.

That said, it’s possible that — depending on the relationship with the client and the situation here — it could be useful to just address it head-on by saying something like, “At the end of your message, before you hung up, the voicemail recorded you saying X and Y. I don’t think that was meant for me to hear, but obviously I want to make sure we address what’s causing you to feel that way. Here’s my take on the situation / how I’m handling the situation / etc.”

2. Do people think thank-you’s for gifts are optional?

For two years, I supervised a graduate student employee. In May, I bought her a graduation gift for her last day. When I handed her the wrapped gift and card, she said a hollow-sounding “Aw, thanks!” and dashed out of my office without opening it. It’s been over a month at this point and I’ve received no thank-you whatsoever. I’m so annoyed about her seeming lack of appreciation and poor etiquette. Amplifying my irritation is the fact that I used my personal money to purchase the items since our office budget does not allow for gifts, and the recipient knows this since she was part of an office-wide meeting where the restrictions were mentioned. I commented about the lack of thank-you note to a younger coworker and she was nonchalant about it, saying she often forgets to send thank-yous for gifts.

Am I expecting too much? I feel like a grumpy elder complaining about “disrespectful whippersnappers”– I’m mid-30s, while she is mid-20s — but have we really gotten to a point where a thank-you note for a gift is optional?

Well, technically, etiquette has never required thank-you notes for gifts that are received in person and where the giver is thanked on the spot. The requirement is for a thank-you, not for one in writing. So your employee fulfilled the letter of the law, although not the spirit of it. Although, of course, since she didn’t actually open in front of you, she should have followed up with you and expressed more specific appreciation once she found out what the gift was.

In any case, how are this person’s social skills in general? I’d be more inclined to write it off to interpersonal awkwardness or lack of social graces from her in particular than as a sweeping sentiment about the state of thank-you’s in general. I know you’re seeing a pattern from the other coworker’s comment, but there have always been people with poor manners (etiquette columns have been answering upset letters about lack of thank-you’s for decades).

3. New badges are creating visual divides

I’m kind of confused about a new policy at work and was hoping to get some perspective. My work (a large specialty teapot maker owned by an even larger general teapot maker) informally rolled out a new badge policy with promises of a full explanation of the changes to come. The new policy is we all must wear our badges on a lanyard around our necks, which is fine, but permanent hired staff and contracted/temp staff have different lanyards. The difference is not even remotely subtle: Permanent employee badges are very plain, while the ones for contractors and temps are a very bright color. This doesn’t reflect any level of security clearance or access to certain clean teapot rooms; a contractor with an advanced PhD who has been working with us for many years will have the same visual designation as a temp here for the day to do some filing.

It’s already something of a cliquey Who You Know environment and I’m vaguely uncomfortable with this Othering of people who, in a lot of cases, have been here for many years and act as essential staff. It’s such a large organization that I can’t imagine actually pushing back on this policy, but I do wonder if my unease is legitimate.

Eh, it’s not a terribly uncommon practice. There are actually solid legal reasons for giving contractors different badges than employees; there are legal restrictions about not treating contractors like employees in a whole variety of ways.

If your company generally treats contractors and temps well, that matters more than the badges. (And of course, if they don’t, that’s the bigger issue anyway.)

4. Is it creepy to check people out on LinkedIn?

I’m an in-house lawyer for a fairly large public service organization. Part of my job is drafting/reviewing leases, permits, and other agreements with external entities and individuals. I usually don’t, however, have any personal contact with these external persons — that is handled by my colleagues. Occasionally, I feel that it’s somewhat relevant to do a quick check on a person involved in an agreement I’m working on — sometimes to help figure out exactly what legal entity they represent, and sometimes just out of curiosity.

Is it a faux pas or otherwise weird to check the LinkedIn profile of such a person? I have a LinkedIn profile that identifies the organization and my position, so they would know who was checking up on them.

The same question would apply if I were in private practice and checking up on clients (without necessarily wanting to connect to all of them) and people on the other side of deals I’m working on (including their lawyers).

I could view these profiles in “incognito” or fake person mode, but first, it’s a bit of a pain, and second, it doesn’t give you all the information that you can see when you are logged in. I’m just curious about the social norms about this.

Nope, it’s not a faux pas. LinkedIn is basically a huge public, professional rolodex and it’s fine to check someone’s affiliations or background there. I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

(If you’re checking daily or something like that, that could certainly feel creepy, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re doing.)

5. Quitting while my manager is on maternity leave

I’ve been feeling for a while that it’s time to move on from my current job. The opportunities for someone in my field are pretty limited at my company, so even though I’m great at my job and consistently get good reviews and praise from my managers, I’d like to work for a company where I have a clearer path upward.

The good news is that I’m close to receiving a job offer with a company in my chosen field. The bad news is that my manager has just gone on maternity leave. If this job comes through before she returns, how should I handle telling her? Is it bad form to go while she’s on leave?

I also feel bad about the gap I’d leave in my team by walking away. We’re very all-hands-on-deck, and the others will have to pick up a lot of extra tasks while they look for a replacement. I know that this would occur no matter when I chose to leave–but doing it while the manager is also gone feels bad. If my offer does come through, should I try to negotiate a later start date to give her time to return? What can I do to keep my team from scrambling after my exit?

No reasonable manager assumes that her maternity leave binds other employees to stay in their jobs until she returns. Imagine if it did — it would mean people would have to put job searches, moves, and other normal life events on hold.

You absolutely do not need to wait until she returns from leave. You should give your resignation to whoever is filling in for her while she’s away, and then I’d also send her an email separately letting her know. (If you’re very close, you could maybe call her — but only if you’re very close and know her well enough to know that she’d want the call rather than feel aggravated by being bothered at home while she’s supposed to be disconnected from work.)

People leave jobs, and it’s rarely at a perfectly convenient time. (A perfectly convenient time usually doesn’t even exist.) Your team will make do. The best thing you can do is to leave things in as good shape as you can, with plentiful documentation (something that you can start working on now, if you haven’t already), and then move on with a clear conscience.

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