open thread – April 17, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,390 comments… read them below }

  1. Sunflower*

    How do you let your network know you’re looking for a new job without being obnoxious? My company doesn’t know I’m job hunting so I can’t exactly blast on LinkedIn that I’m interested in new opportunities. Is sending individualized emails to people okay or obnoxious? I have a lot of contacts at work that might have leads but they are in contact with my boss too. Seems too risky to let them know I’m looking.

    1. fposte*

      I lean toward individual emails anyway–if you want an individual response, you want to use individual communication. So I think it’s not obnoxious and is preferable to a LinkedIn announcement anyway.

      1. thisisit*

        I agree, people are more likely to help you if you send more personalized requests tailored to what they can specifically help you with. Make sure you include a blurb about yourself and what you are looking for so people can forward to others.

        Depending on your relationship with people, you can certainly say that you are starting to scope out the job market and making casual inquiries but not necessarily publicly looking so you would appreciate their discretion, and etc.

    2. Adam V*

      I would probably send emails to your friends and to those closest to you at your current company, but only those you trust to be discreet. Just try to be specific about what it is that you’re looking to change (closer to home? something more senior?) so they don’t point you to a positions that aren’t a fit – I think there are few things as discouraging to someone who’s trying to help than to hear “thanks, but that’s not exactly what I’m looking for” without more details as to why.

    3. Pizza Lover*

      I think that it probably depends on your relationships with those people, as well as their relationships with your boss. I don’t think most rational people would fault you for using your network to see what opportunities are out there, but again, their relationship with your boss is probably key here.

      1. Sunflower*

        If my boss found out I was looking..I really don’t know what would happen except it wouldn’t be taken well. I work in an environment where people are always watching but they’d rarely confront you about things. So if he saw or heard something suspicious, he wouldn’t confront me but he’d start watching me like a hawk. Then if more things came up, the conversation would most certainly not be of the ‘what can we do to fix this’ variety- I see it something like ‘well if you aren’t happy here you should just leave now’ I have heard from people that he stalks people’s LinkedIn accounts watching for activity!! Not that the activity on your LinkedIn account means anything but…

        1. 22dncr*

          I would lean towards not telling them then. You never know what people are going through in their lives. They may be on a PIP and throw you under the bus to save their skin. I’ve had this happen to me SO MANY times. Better not to give them any info that can be used against you.

    4. Jubilance*

      When I started hunting, I sent a LinkedIn private message to select folks that I was connected to. That way I could inform my network without making it super obvious that I’m looking.

  2. Christy*

    I’m asking about picking between two employers, with salary and benefits completely equal.

    I’m a federal employee who works for Office A. I’m currently on a temporary assignment to Office B, and I’ve worked a lot with Office C while working for Office B. Offices B and C are both going to try to hire me at a promotion (exactly the same pay/benefits/structure, and I’d be working remotely for both of them). I’m definitely going to go work for one of them, as a promotion won’t happen in Office A for several years at least. I started as an intern with Office A in 2008 and I’m now an analyst.

    The question: do I want to work for Office B or Office C? Office B works with Office A, and I would have SharePoint responsibilities in addition to some program responsibilities. I would have a wider variety of work, and it would likely be lower-stress than Office C. My concern is that I am kind of sick of Office A, and I don’t know that I want to keep working with them regularly. I would work with Office A probably 5% of the time most of the time and then 40% of the time sometimes. I would have flexibility to work with Office C as well, and Office B has been very supportive. Office B is mostly women.

    In Office C, I would be basically only doing SharePoint. I like SharePoint, but I’m not sure I want to do only that. They also have a really high workload. That boss is also pretty good, though not as great as Office B. I’ve met many of the Office C people in person, and I like working with them. But I don’t know if I want to get pigeonholed into just doing SharePoint, particularly because I don’t have a lot of other technology skills, though I enjoy learning. Office B is mixed male/female, but I’m the only woman working on SharePoint, so I’d end up working with only men most of the time.

    I guess my question actually is: what is strategically better for my career? Office B: I’d be working in a program area, doing SharePoint (which my organization really values, at least now), but with more flexibility to move around and work with other offices on program issues. I’d do some work with my old Office A, Office C: I’d be developing SharePoint sites, working with other offices, but mostly in an implementation capacity. I’d probably be working with more offices, but not as deeply. Which allows more room for advancement? Do tech workers get pigeonholed?

    Thanks, everyone, for reading. It’s a great problem to have.

    1. Anie*

      It really sounds like Office B is the better option, to me. From what I understand, the main negative with B is the work with Office A. That’s doable, especially with the distance you’ll be getting. For me, I always going with the better boss.

      1. Christy*

        Oh! That’s the other thing! I know my big boss is great, but I’m getting a new little boss in Office B. They’ve posted the position and they’re hiring soon, but that’s an unknown. It could be the woman who’s acting in the role, who is great, but it could also be a man I’ve worked with (and professionally disagreed with) in the past, and I’m not sure how it would be to have him as my supervisor. (We used to have to argue about a certain topic when I was with Office A and he was with Office B as an employee.)

        The little boss just got promoted to be the big boss, so he’s still quite involved.

        1. BritCred*

          Do you have space to wait to see who the boss of Office B will be? And do you really want to work aside that person as a colleague even if he isn’t the boss?

          1. Christy*

            He’s in a manager training program, so he’ll leave to be a manager somewhere. He’s currently acting in another office. I think we could be coworkers, I just wonder about him supervising me. (I’ve also not really worked with him while I’ve been in Office B because he’s be acting elsewhere.)

        2. Connie-Lynne*

          That’s cool for the little boss!

          I was coming here originally to say, definitely go with B. I understand the appeal of working in a mostly-women office, but you don’t want to be pigeonholed as only in one technology. But then you posted this and …

          Having professional disagreements isn’t the end of the world, but it can occasionally make things awkward. Is potential-new-boss-guy the sort of person who holds grudges? Is the matter you two disagreed on likely to mean he is going to instruct you to do things his way instead of your way, and that will make you unhappy? Is it a matter that leads you to believe you two will have other clashes? If so, wait and see whether he gets the position, if you can.

          1. Christy*

            We were both arguing our offices’ official positions, so that part wouldn’t be an issue. I don’t think he would hold grudges, although I’ve definitely had to acknowledge even to big boss how adversarial Office A can be. Which is a good point. Big boss has gotten over the arguing, even though we were on opposite sides, so potential-new-boss likely would too.

    2. Businesslady*

      congrats on finding yourself in such an enviable position!

      my take on this sort of situation is that there’s no way of objectively determining the “better” option–even if you decide it’s C for XYZ reasons, any of those could shift in such a way that B looks preferable in hindsight (& vice versa).

      so here’s what I do when I have a seemingly impossible choice: flip a coin. not because I think it’s a good idea to leave major decisions to chance (I absolutely don’t) but because I often find that a coin-flips reveals the gut feelings that get drowned out by intellectual pro/con assessments. once the coin gives you an answer, you’ll probably feel either a little disappointed or a little relieved–& then you know which one you should choose.

      (in the event that you feel truly, absolutely neutral after this exercise, then I guess my plan-B suggestion is to talk to as many potential future colleagues as possible & see if that helps.)

      1. Moo*

        Ahhh, you mean the Phoebe Buffet Pregnancy Decision Strategy. I concur, as does Rachel Green.

    3. ThatOneRedhead*

      Congratulations on the opportunities! I’d go with Option B. Personally, I’d value a better boss and more diverse work over a more technically deep role.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’d go with B, with federal jobs one question I think people should ask is if the job is something they’d be happy with doing for a long time. I think having a variety of work is really important too.
        The more things you are able to do, the less likely it is for you to get stuck and the better chance you have at career mobility later.

    4. Sunflower*

      I think Office B is the better bet. The only downside is still having to work with Office A occasionally but that seems to outweigh the negatives that come along with Office C.

      I don’t work in tech(have no idea how important SharePoint is) so my reply might not be that helpful but I can’t see how taking a job that solely focuses on doing something you don’t want to solely focus on would be a good idea.

      1. Christy*

        Hah, that’s a really good point. I’ve been focusing on work with Office A/not work with Office A, but you’ve hit the real question: Do I want SharePoint to be my whole job? And I think it could be my whole job, like I think I can handle it, but I don’t think I prefer it to be my whole job. And I don’t think I want it to be my whole job forever.

        Thank you. (Thank you all.)

    5. thisisit*

      when people leave Offices B and C, where do they go or what do they end up doing? Especially those in positions similar to yours.

      What exactly do you not like about Office A, and what are the differences between B and C bosses?

      Do the kinds of jobs you’d like to pursue in the future tend to be those that value depth or breadth of experience?

      1. Christy*

        These questions are great. I don’t know that people really move on from either of these offices. They’re generally destinations for people. Many go into management or retire. There aren’t many young employees in either office, though I know of at least one who’s in his 30s in Office C.

        I feel like Office A doesn’t have any power and doesn’t have a strong director. Offices B and C both have power. Office B has a pretty strong director who will go to bat for you, and Office C has a lot of power to get contractors and stuff, but not a ton of day-to-day power for the employees–they build based on others’ requests.

        Let’s be real. I have 40 years left in the government, and I’d like to be an executive. (I think. It’s either that or a technical advisor, which is a GS-15 analyst position.) An executive values breadth. A technical advisor probably values depth, but probably not in technology areas.

        1. thisisit*

          It might be worth taking the long-view then. I put up with a crappy big boss for a few years because it was good for my career. But I did move on when I couldn’t maintain my own professionalness/got too miserable.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I also would probably pick Office B, but then I like my client, so I’m having trouble judging how much Office A has gotten on your nerves. Would you be more working with Office A or for them? Working with someone you don’t like is more tolerable than working for them, especially if their management style or personality is the issue, because you’re often more subject to those things working for them.

      1. Christy*

        With, certainly, not for. I would end up working in opposition to them on some issues (nature of the offices), and perhaps collaborating on a big project. A BIG project that I don’t know that I want to work on at all. (Of course, Offices A, B, and C will all end up working on this project. That’s a good point, self.)

      2. Moo*

        “Working with someone you don’t like is more tolerable than working for them” DING, we have a winner. It really does change everything.

        As an aside, I’m going to say something that may be unpopular but I am saying this as both a (female) peon and as a supervisor: do take staff gender into consideration, even if it’s a stereotype. While it’s rough having few women in tech (I have experience in this), having all women also has its disadvantages (I have experience in this, too). It’s not all roses and glitter. (well, not all the time anyway.) If I had to pick right now and the only thing to choose from was gender, I would go with the opposite gendered office as it eliminates a looooot of messy day to day garbage. Mixing it up, for me, created some really productive and happy teams which I had to curate from a (painful) one-gendered department.

    7. The Strand*

      What is your long term goal?

      If you interned 7 years ago, I’d gather you’re still in your early to mid twenties. If you don’t yet know what you want to do with your career, even a general direction, Office B might be better, for giving you some more time to test the waters. I also think that if you leave on good terms, your existing relationship with Office A might allow you to get your work done more easily, because you know where to find resources, who to talk to, etc.

      Office C will give you a leg up in tech, and I believe Sharepoint is a valuable skill to have (though it’s outside of my specific wheelhouse) where you could get other jobs in the private sector. Yes, tech workers get pigeonholed. And if you’re female, tech is not always a happy industry to work in (though my personal and observed experience is that technology jobs in a government institution are usually not as “gendered” as they might be in a private company, and the Nerf battles are more likely to be kept as a special occasion thing). If you think you might want to become a technology leader some day, Office C is a good place to start, but even a successful person specializing in tech to that degree could be marginalized at some institutions and not seen as part of the big picture. YMMV, but read TechRepublic to get a sense of how this happens at some companies and organizations.

      If you value money and a skill that will make you valuable to a variety of employers, or want to be a tech leader or professional, Office C. If you want to be a leader of the big picture (eg program development, selection), deciding what direction your institution is going in, or want to keep your soft skills stronger, Office B. I could be wrong (I’m sure Katie the Fed would have better advice) but I get the impression that Office B will be more interesting and less boring to you.

      1. Christy*

        Thank you. This is really good advice, and I’m going to seriously think about it. I think I’m leaning towards staying with the government, but it’s a good point that Office C would give me skills that transfer elsewhere.

        I’ll check out that TechRepublic link.

    8. RG*

      I would go with Office B, especially since you’re not sure if you want to focus only on SharePoint.

    9. ac*

      I would not focus on the amount of time you’re spending with office A colleague as a negative for office B. Even if you’re not happy with them now, the dynamic may change when you are in a different reporting structure, e.g., they could be crumby colleagues but great clients, or acceptable in small doses but not so great in larger doses.

      I think the balance favors Office B.

    10. yup*

      It sounds like you’ve identified your concerns about each office.
      If you’re trying to keep promoting by making new connections, office C sounds like the way to go because you will be in meetings with higher ups from several different departments listening to and solving their problems. Word will get around that you are doing a good job from more than just one or two people, which helps you establish a track record of working well with lots of different people and personality types. You also said the workload is high, so, are you ready for it? Prove your point and get promoted again quickly, if that’s your goal.
      You stated that you might not want to do SharePoint exclusively; however, I would argue that it would be actually reflect well on you if you were able to master this specific software, for a couple of reasons: 1) not very many people in government know how to use SharePoint very well; I work in state Gov’t so I see failed attempts to use it well, a lot. 2) Everyone you work with and work for knows what you do and how you contribute. 3) When you’re ready for a change, people will understand that this wasn’t the end-all for you, which shows that you’re a skilled individual who can take on many roles and learn new things, transferable talent.

      Office B you’ve already been on temporary assignment to and you like the boss. Would the boss go to bat for you with HR to keep promoting you? If so, that is a strong factor. A good boss who cares about your advancement is very, very valuable and rare, and your happiness at work is important. This sounds like the “safer and closer to home choice” but if you feel you will not be able to network as much, it might be smart to turn away from the familiar and branch out to Office C.

      You made some comments about the demographics (mostly men vs. mostly women). I don’t have any advice other than listen to your own internal dialogue about what that means to you and why. I was told that I would work in an office with mostly women once and I just shrugged it off because it didn’t matter to me, but I’ve seen some coworkers get seriously worked up over male-female power imbalances, so give it a good thought. Good luck!

    11. LQ*

      No one wants all SharePoint all the time :) B sounds like an option with more variety, especially with a strong boss. That would really drive me.

      Trends change, if something new comes out, or if SharePoint is no longer the cool thing and you take C especially as a more tech job it might be difficult to transition out of it. But with B you’ll likely get to transition out of SharePoint and into something else more easily, either if you go, I can’t look at another list or library or create another workflow! Or if MS decides to get rid of it. (I know they say they won’t, but…)

    12. Camellia*

      Do tech workers get pigeonholed?

      Absolutely. I’ve worked in IT for 35 years and can attest to that. “Oh, your last role was SharePoint for X years? We don’t need a SharePoint person.”

    13. Thinking out loud*

      I haven’t read the other comments, but I’d go for Office B. You say the manager there is better, and that’s 90% of what’s important for me. You also seem to have some reservations about being pigeonholed into Sharepoint work, and Office B gives you more opportunities. It seems like the only downside is working with Office A, but I think that Office B is actually easier from that standpoint too – tell your manager at Office A that you’ve enjoyed working with them, but you think that it makes sense to transfer to Office B since you’re loaned out to them already anyway. (In my experience, it’s awkward to report to one manager but do all of your work for another one.)

  3. Rose*

    I got the job I posted about a few weeks ago! The thing is I still haven’t received my offer letter though I got a verbal offer last Friday. Do I wait it out? Contact them to follow up? Thanks!

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’d call them in case they think you’re not interested!

      I’m not sure where you are from, in the UK offer letters and employment contracts are common place, but from what I read here in the US not so much.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you positive that they plan to send one? Some places don’t do them as a matter of routine. But if they said you’d be getting one, it’s reasonable to reach out to say you haven’t received it and just wanted to make sure it hadn’t been lost in transit (and then to ask about the timeline for receiving it).

    3. LizNYC*

      In my current job, I was waiting for a letter or, at least, a formal email. Turns out the company didn’t usually do that (though they offered to do one if I needed it). I’m glad I followed up because I almost lost the position because I was waiting! Follow up and find out what their procedure is.

  4. Anie*

    I have to share a recent work interaction. It involves me crying in the workplace, but I feel like this is the sort of incidence where that doesn’t reflect badly on me.

    Sitting in my office, reading a book (I’m on my lunch). Two co-workers stop in the doorway of my office, in the middle of a discussion. I look up but they’re not talking to me, so I tune them out. After a minute or so, after a burst of incredibly strong swearing, I realize they’re having a very heated argument.

    I think I said something like, “Are you seriously fighting in front of me right now?”

    One woman immediately turns to me and tells me to “Mind your own f*ing business.”

    Who does that?! Yes, I could have phrased my initial comment better, but I was appalled to realize that kind language was happening two feet from me. We’d previously had a decent working relationship (5 years), so I responded by looking shocked and saying, “Hey, that’s uncalled for! Knock it off.”

    This enraged her. Apparently it’s a phrase her mother used often and she had negative associations with it. Her rant included the comment that I’m “not her mother and she’ll she speak to me however she damn well pleases.”

    I stated firmly that, as a co-worker, it wasn’t acceptable for her to talk to me like that. She did a 180, suddenly all smiles and insisted she was just joking. Things like this have popped up on AAM before, so I tried to use the advice from those instances. I was firm, and said that it still wasn’t acceptable to speak for me that way. The last thing I wanted was for this to happen again in the future and have her brush if off as a joke.

    She…lost it. Screaming. Swearing. Saying she’d always hated me. When she moved to physical threats, I immediately stood up, moved past her, and went to management. We had a sit down, she and I plus management. It was basically me crying for an hour while she first repeated how much she hated me, admitting every single thing she’d said, and pointedly saying what a great worker she has been. Finally she apologized. She used phrases like, “I probably shouldn’t talk to co-workers like that” and “I would never hurt a co-worker.” Not exactly reassuring, right?

    We parted on the terms that, obviously, she’s never to speak to anyone like that again and that this issue could stay between us. I spent the rest of the day, when asked why my face and eyes were so red, saying my allergies were flaring up. Apparently she spent the rest of the day, and the following days, telling everyone how awful I am and how going to management “just wasn’t done.”

    I hate to go back to management and say the issue hasn’t been resolved, but I feel that’s my only avenue, right?

    1. Blue Anne*

      Oh my god. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. That would almost certainly have me in tears at work as well.

      Yes, in your shoes, I would go back to management, as much as that will suck. Geez. Ugh.

    2. Sadsack*

      What happened to the original person she was fighting with?

      I think I may not go back to management unless she said something to me directly. What she is saying to others is second-hand, unless she is talking to them in front of you. I can’t believe anyone would take her seriously and see you in a negative light based on the way she has acted. I think she is really only damaging her own credibility.

      1. Anie*

        Nothing happened with the other person. They didn’t complain about whatever their issues was. More willing to let it go, I guess…

        1. oþ hund cnea werþeoda gewitan*

          Is this the same office where the HR guy was harassing you and throwing things at you?

          If so: you should really find a new job.

          (Also, I’d love to visit this place. For approximately the same reasons I’d love to visit North Korea)

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Yeah, I would’ve cried to. That’s verbal assault in my book and I would probably lose my handle on my emotions. You did the right thing. Your coworker is cray cray and not to be trusted ever. Management probably didn’t handle that well either. I don’t think a sit down with all of you and allowing her to blast you was the right move.

    4. Pizza Lover*

      Uh wow, for the record, she sounds insane and it sounds like you handled it the best way you could.

    5. Adam V*

      Holy crap, that’s horrible. I’m shocked management hasn’t already been in your office asking if things are fixed now – that’s behavior I would never allow. You’re right, I wouldn’t hesitate to go back and say “she’s still telling people I’m horrible” and wait for them to sit her down and tell her to “knock it off”. (Seriously, they should use that phrase. I would want to be a fly on the wall when they do.)

    6. Delyssia*

      That is awful. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

      I wouldn’t go back to management unless/until she said something directly to me. I wouldn’t want to go to management to report on the gossip about the situation I’m hearing from other people. I would also ask that people not tell me about whatever she’s saying. If anybody came to me and asked what they should do about it, I’d suggest that they talk to management themselves.

      1. Sospeso*

        Yes, I agree! If others go to management with their concerns, they’ll get a much fuller picture of this employee’s outrageous behavior.

        Frankly, I am surprised there doesn’t seem to be anything else happening as a result of this person’s actions (although, it’s possible it’s going on behind the scenes and Anie just isn’t aware of it).

        So sorry this happened! I would have had trouble keeping my composure, too. But it sounds like your response was thoughtful.

      2. Snoskred*

        Delyssia wrote : “If anybody came to me and asked what they should do about it, I’d suggest that they talk to management themselves.”

        This point is extremely important. Especially the person who was being treated badly – that person needs to speak up, ASAP.

        I worked in one place with a real bully. One night, a co-worker was on her break and eating a lasagne she had just heated up in the microwave. Our supervisor went off at her – for eating at her desk, for eating on her break, for the smell of the food.. It was so shocking and quite aggressive.

        I did speak up when it happened, once I could get a word in, and said “Stop. The way you are treating (name) is totally inappropriate, you need to go outside and calm down.” The supervisor was so shocked that I said anything, she actually did what I said. It turned out later that she’d been bullying this employee for a while, and nobody else had stood up to her when she did it. I don’t tolerate bullying of any kind and I do speak my mind.

        Said co-worker was in tears by the end of it, and she did not want to tell management what had happened. Not speaking up is why it kept happening to her, and I wasn’t about to allow that to continue. I personally went to management myself and reported it, as well as telling them everyone who was there to witness the incident and suggested they should speak to everyone re this because other staff were upset about what happened, *and* I privately said to everyone else there that they approach management themselves.

        That supervisor was demoted as a result, and she was never rostered on at the same time as that person ever again.

        I’m really sorry this happened to you. :(

      3. ExceptionToTheRule*

        I’m going to disagree. I have a colleague who can a complete asshole to people (for lack of a better term) and he’s been getting away with demeaning & belittling people FOR YEARS because nobody ever goes right back to management. They shrug their shoulders and say “obviously there’s nothing they are willing to do” until it flares up again in a major way and management looks at you and goes “why didn’t you tell me?”

        Go talk to your manager again.

        1. LBK*

          I think the point is that she shouldn’t go to management based on hearsay – if there’s a direct incident, that should definitely be reported, but right now it sounds like it’s just rumors that the coworker is still talking trash or other people reporting it to the OP. That’s not enough to go to management, because then it’s just he said/she said.

          1. Cordelia Naismith*

            Yes. In that situation, if a coworker came to me and said “So-and-so is still saying how horrible you are,” I would ask that coworker to report it since she is the one who heard the comment. I wouldn’t report hearsay to management, just any incident I witnessed directly.

            1. Mints*

              Right, I think this distinction is important: if Anie has any further confrontation, she should bring it up to management. But if coworkers are saying “Hey Anie, HorribleCoworker said XYZ about you,” she should encourage that person to go to management, if nothing else just to say “The bad mouthing made me uncomfortable.”

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      That sounds awful! What a terrible coworker.

      I’m with everyone else, I think you need to go back to management. It’s clearly not resolved.

    8. Lizzy May*

      I am so sorry this happened to you. She is way out of line and I don’t think there is anything wrong with following up with your supervisor about your concerns. Some of those comments she made would be fireable where I work and that she’s not willing to move on from the event and keeps talking about it is something I know my manager would want to know about. Keep to the facts and don’t editorialize but certainly say something.

    9. ZSD*

      I’m so, so sorry that you’re going through this. And I’m sorry your management isn’t more supportive!
      I’m not sure what exactly you mean by “management,” though. I’m not sure if you share a supervisor with this woman, and you went to that immediate supervisor, or if you went to both your immediate supervisor and hers, or if you went to someone higher up.
      I think I would have gone to my immediate supervisor. I hope that your supervisor, at least, is being supportive in some way.
      But in general, I’m just really sorry. Obviously, you were in the right here, if that makes you feel any better. And I don’t think the crying at work is a big deal in this circumstance!

      1. Anie*

        She works in a different department. My boss actually was nearby and heard the whole thing, but mostly stood there in shock. I didn’t go to the woman’s boss–I went to the highest level in the building. So my boss’s boss.

        And thank you.

        1. LizNYC*

          Maybe you should go to your boss, who overheard the entire thing, to tell her/him what happened that day. It’s possible your boss thinks everything was resolved.

          And I’m sorry this happened to you. I’d be crying too–and then wanting to barricade my door from this looneybin.

          1. Afiendishthingy*

            Seriously. That is so incredibly beyond unacceptable that I think she should have been fired on the spot . Do you know if upper management got statements from your boss or any other witnesses, if there were any?

            I think I’m with the “don’t complain to mgmt based on hearsay” camp, but I would definitely go to them if she confronts you or you actually witness her complaining about you. I’m so sorry and I hope she is gone soon!!

    10. BethRA*

      Wow. Just wow.

      I am so sorry that happened to you, and so wicked impressed you managed to remain professional for as long as you did in that situation!

      Those women were out of line from the jump having a loud argument in such a public area. It’s just rude and disruptive. And then to pile it on with her reactions? Dang. IMO, at the very least the management should have sent her home for the day.

      If she’s still trashing you, yeah, i would go to the bosses. It might help to frame the discussion as “how should I handle this” to start, but she is way out of line, and given her previous reaction to you, it’s not reasonable to expect you to address her directly again yourself.

    11. Ann Furthermore*

      OMG, that is terrible! I think you handled it the best way you could. It sounds like she’s trying to deflect her bad behavior by trying to make you look bad. But she was totally out of line speaking to you that way, fighting with someone out in the middle of the office, and using profanity. I’m no prude about foul language, but I rarely use it in the workplace.

      I think you should make one last-ditch effort to resolve it with her directly, but do it via email so you have it documented. Say something like, “Jane, I’ve heard from several people that you’ve been discussing what happened between us the other day with them. My understanding after our meeting with [Manager] was that the matter was considered closed, and we could put it behind us. What about this incident do you still feel is unresolved? I’d be happy to sit down with [Manager] again and talk though anything else.” This lets her know that you’re aware of what’s going on, but doesn’t veer into finger pointing territory — don’t even address the fact that she’s trash talking you to other people. She should be able to infer that.

      You may very well get inundated with vitriol, and if you’re lucky she’ll do it in an email. If she responds the way you think she will, then you can go to your manager again and say that you again tried to resolve the problem yourself, but she was very hostile and not receptive at all.

      And I’m sorry you’re going through that. How awful.

      1. Anie*

        I love this. This is perfect. Your phrasing is impeccable. I’m not sure I will do this, if only because she might infer that I’m threatening her. The man I went to about the issue ended the meeting with the caveat that I continued to feel comfortable working with someone with actions like hers. If not, she’ll likely be transferred.

        1. BritCred*

          Sorry, she’s overstepping her bounds and especially with that caveat I would go to that level. Otherwise this will likely just fester for a while before blowing up again and becoming worse.

        2. Snoskred*

          Anie – Me personally, I would not go the email route on this occasion, I think that could come back to bite you in the rear even if it were perfectly worded.

          I think another trip to the man you went to is the better option, and I would do it as soon as possible. :)

          1. LizNYC*

            Depending on what state you’re in, you could confront her in person with the language above and have your phone recording the interaction completely legally. You know, for when she decides to curse your firstborn.

          2. TeapotCounsel*

            And yet again, I agree with Snoskred. No email to cray cray lady. Go to management instead.

        3. Connie-Lynne*

          I had something like this happen once, a coworker flew at me and lost it, obviously being physically threatening in front of another coworker. I also cried when speaking to management, and I am not a crier. The coworker was let go within the hour.

          I am sorry your management team has not taken similar steps. I understand being frightened about whatever action she might take if she feels threatened, but this is the only step that’s likely to get her moved (!) or dismissed. Maybe there’s a particular time of day you can send it that makes you feel more secure, like in the morning so that you’re unlikely to be alone or walking to your car when she gets it, at night so that you can send it and leave, or maybe ask a coworker to “buddy” with you for the next day or two after you send it?

          The only other thing you can do is, as others have said, request that instead of telling _you_ about her trash-talking, ask them to email management.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yeah, I feel that OP’s boss did not do enough. To allow this other person to rant on and on for an hour is a situation totally out of control.
            I had a subordinate get going on me one time. We went to a third party for discussion. (Silly me, I thought it would help.) Forty five minutes into the conversation I was STILL explaining my actions. It was the same explanation over and over for forty five minutes. At the forty five minute mark I ended the conversation. I realized my mistake. That was a conversation that should not have taken more than twenty minutes. There was nothing to be gained after that point in the conversation.
            However, the point is that a person who is this enraged is not ready to have any conversations. She should have been told to gain composure before meeting with you. If she could not regain composure other steps should have been used that did not involve you.

        4. Observer*

          Even with that caveat, there is no hint of threat in that note. If she infers a threat that’s on her.

          But, if you really thinks she’s that unstable, then you need to go back up the food chain and tell the boss that she’s still trashing you and that at this point you are really concerned that you can’t even ask her what’s up. Keep YOUR manager in the loop – perhaps even specifically ask for her backing. It’s one thing to not have done anything in the moment. But at this point, it’s her job to go to bat for you.

    12. TheLazyB*

      The fact she repeated everything with management present…. wow. At least no one can accuse you of exaggerating, I suppose :-/

      I know this is no help to you, but my last job was public sector in the UK where it’s hard to get fired, but I’m pretty sure that if someone had done this they would be on a final warning and any repetition would involve them actually getting fired. So, yeah.

      No one should have to deal with that. Kudos for dealing with it so well.

      1. Laurel Gray*

        Yeah – I don’t know how management let her sit there and repeat all that in front of the person who she obviously hurt without saying anything.

        Anie, I am so sorry this happened to you. If I was in eye view or ear shot of this whole altercation I would have stepped in, I absolutely loathe people like this coworker and what she did borders on bullying. I can’t just sit there and say nothing and be associated as someone who thinks this is okay or is comfortable with this happening in the work environment.

    13. The Strand*

      I’m so sorry, it sounds like such a terrible place you’re working at. She physically threatened you? This is much more serious than a “sit down talk” where ostensibly you’re both at fault. She sounds like a negative, caustic person who is a liability issue for the company.

      If you don’t get an inkling that this behavior is being monitored and paper trailed, with a goal to getting her out of your company, I would start doing a paper trail yourself. Also update your resume and probably change your routines.

    14. yup*

      Sorry you went through this. You’ll recover from the trauma over time. Take care of yourself and forgive them

    15. brightstar*

      I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. Like others, I find the entire situation shocking.

    16. Lionness*

      I am not one to usually recommend going to management over “office talk” but I think you need to do so, here. This is so unbelievably serious on so many levels. I can’t even fathom how someone could think that they could maintain employment after acting like that.

      Go back to your management team. Tell them this is continuing. And be honest about whether or not you feel comfortable continuing to work with this cow.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      You could go back to management and/or ask the people who are telling you about the ongoing rants to go to management. If you have witnessed it yourself be sure to include that when you go back to the boss.

      I have worked with people who have these types of behaviors and I can say it does not go away.
      If you are holding back because you are afraid of costing her the job she has, stop thinking along that line, please. No one can work in an environment this tense. In the process of trying to help her keep her job, you will end up forfeiting yours. This because you will find yourself having to quit because of the stress. Don’t start down this road. Apparently, they will transfer her? Maybe that needs to happen.

      I am wondering what happened to the person she was fighting with. Did anyone speak with her?

      I know you did not ask this question, but in the future when you decide to break up a fight at work, take a second person with you. Don’t do it alone. You will be the witness for the second person as much as the second person will be a witness for you. Hopefully, this is an absolutely useless piece of information because you will never encounter this type of thing again.

      1. Windchime*

        I didn’t get the feeling that Anie was trying to break up a fight; rather, she was pulled into it because they came to her office door to have the fight! The correct response from the fighters should have been, “Ooops, so sorry, we’ll move/close the door/be more quiet.” “Mind your f’ing business” is seldom a work-appropriate response, especially if you are saying it while standing in the business-minder’s office doorway.

        I would probably say something to management again, honestly. It seems that this back-biting and telling others how awful you are could be interpreted as bullying. It’s just not to your face.

    18. Clever Name*

      So based on this, and other stories you’ve shared, your workplace sounds incredibly toxic. You may not see it that way, seeing as you are in the thick of things, but to an outside observer, it looks toxic. I really really hope you are looking for other jobs. You do not deserve to be treated this way. Nobody deserves to be treated this way. Hang in there. You seem really lovely, and I hate to see you (or anyone, really) being treated like this.

    19. Anon for today*

      I am sorry that you had to go through this :(
      Good for you for going to management. We have a bully at my office and most people just say things like: “Oh! That is just his personality! He talks like that to everyone! Oh! well…just let it go and do your job!
      Well, I said no! this has to stop! I was not going to take it anymore! So I went to my boss and he recommended that I go to HR. I spoke with HR about the bully! And my boss spoke with the bully’s boss.
      The bully did not speak to me to about a month. Which is fine with me. And as time passed, we talk as needed for work related stuff. He is still a bully and others complain about him all day long!
      I wish my company would make more of an effort to take care of the “bully” the best way so that other employees can have a professional, safe and team oriented work environment.

  5. Cheddar2.0*

    Since when are jeggings/leggings acceptable business casual wear? In place of pants, I mean. Probably 1/4 of the women in the building I work in wear leggings without a tunic shirt/skirt/dress over the top and it just seems a bit… too casual to me. We’re supposed to be business casual! It may be California, but still.

    1. Anie*

      In California? I always feel the rules there are a little different. I think, too, is the overall office atmosphere. That’s just accepted more easily at some places than others.

      In the interest of full disclosure, I’m totally wearing leggings as pants today…but all the goods are covered with a long blouse. I still look more dressed up than the old jeans and t-shirts on my co-workers.

    2. Jennifer*

      In California, you’re just lucky if people show up with all of their naughty bits covered and flip-flops on their feet, honestly.

      I do not like the leggings-as-pants thing either. Wear them like tights–also, who really wants their ass in spandex hanging out like that?

      1. Cheddar2.0*

        Hahaha! True. Maybe it’s just my department, but even jeans will get you the side-eye here, unless it’s a day you have no meetings and will be hiding in your office all day.

        1. yup*

          reminds me of the time when, without knowing it was faux-pax, I wore jean-shorts to work on casual friday!! “Bold” they said, haha. Well, it was 102 degrees out…

      2. Bea W*

        I swear I have seen people where what look like tights as pants. Those are probably leggings I guess…leggings that aren’t 100% opaque when stretched over a butt.

    3. Allison*

      If you didn’t specify business casual, I might’ve asked if you were at a tech startup in San Fran where nearly anything goes. I try not to judge clothing choices just because they’re outside the range of what I’d wear, but yes, for business casual, that’s definitely not appropriate. I’ve even heard that leggings as tights isn’t really professional either, but that might just be for super conservative offices.

      1. brightstar*

        Most of the offices I’ve worked at that emphasized a more professional dress code also forbid leggings, even under skirts or dresses.

        Anytime, even outside the office, when I see someone wearing legging as pants I scream internally LEGGINGS ARE NOT PANTS. I never say anything to the person, though.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          This is one of many things that I just don’t get. It’s like Comic Sans. Why do people feel so strongly about this? I don’t really care what other people wear, and I don’t really care what font they use.

          (Separate from the question of whether to wear/use either at work. Just generally.)

          1. Allison*

            Yeah, I don’t really get it either. There are worse things than seeing someone in a tacky outfit, or seeing the outline of someone’s butt. Then again, I danced ballet for years, so I’m used to seeing people in skimpy, tight clothing. I live in the city, I only concern myself with someone else’s behavior when it’s actually inconsiderate.

            1. Windchime*

              Agree. Pants, to me, are articles of clothing that have two connected cylinders (one for each leg), an opening at the bottom for your feet to come out, and enough fabric to cover your lower torso. Therefore, leggings are pants.

              That doesn’t mean that people should wear skin-tight leggings that are opaque enough that I can see your undies or your camel toe. (People do it, though). So….leggings are pants, but their not pants that this chubby middle-aged lady would be caught dead in.

          2. brightstar*

            It’s just one of my pet peeves . I’ll admit it affects my life in no way.

            I also get annoyed if the cars parallel parked outside my building aren’t facing the same way.

            Those are just 2 of my quirks I guess.

          3. nonegiven*

            I convert anything I have to read into Comic Sans, if possible. It’s easier to read.

          4. skyline*

            I don’t personally care for the leggings as pants trend, and I understand why some folks have a poison eye for it. (I do to!) However, I’ve been trying to be more careful about how I express and when I express it, because some of the comments I see on the topic are way too much about policing women’s bodies than anything else.

            That said: not work appropriate. (I don’t mind them under anything that’s tunic or dress length, and have worn them under dresses when I had a position where more casual attire was fine.)

        2. Sarah in DC*

          Wait, what’s the difference between leggings and tights if they are under a skirt? I totally understand and agree with not wearing them as pants, but if you are wearing a knee length dress, why does it matter?

          1. Beezus*

            I don’t think it matters for knee length, but I think people wearing leggings tend toward shorter hemlines than they would wear barelegged, and I think that’s what a lot of dress codes that forbid leggings are trying to curb.

            I once stopped a woman at work to let her know that her dress was riding up on her leggings – it was just on one side and almost up to the hip, and from my vantage point it just looked like static cling riding it up, and I would want to know in her place. Turned out, nope, it was a tunic with an asymmetrical hemline, and it was supposed to look that way.

    4. nona*

      Leggings aren’t pants. Jeggings… depends on whether they’re the dark-blue-leggings-with-orange-stitching kind or the extra-stretchy-but-still-jeans kind?

    5. The Strand*

      Nope, not even in California.

      When I hear “leggings” I think of stirrup pants and the thicker fabrics that were popular in the 1980s and early 1990s; leggings today are more like tights with no feet.

        1. The Strand*

          They were comfortable, but as for how they looked (especially with an oversized sweater or sweatshirt)… what were we thinking??

          I had reason to remember (and see) stirrup pants thanks to the previous AAM discussion about Units… Still can’t believe people wore those.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I’ve noticed, actually, an uptick in pants-weight leggings recently, probably because so many people did start wearing them as pants. Nonetheless, it’s a casual look, and not for most workplaces. That said, if 1/4 of the women working there are wearing them, it’s likely OK there.

        1. Cheddar2.0*

          My building has 20+ different labs/departments/divisions, but we’re all within the same umbrella organization so maybe it just depends on the culture in each. Honestly, I was kinda hoping people would say it’s fine so I could start wearing leggings, haha!

    6. Meh*

      If they are getting work done and doing it well…who cares?! People need to stop focusing so much on what others wear and more on how they do. Do good work. Produce good work. Treat customers/co-workers well.

      1. The Strand*

        I used to have that attitude in every situation. Then one day in college, here I am wearing a print T-shirt (groan) and knit pants at my summer job at Big Bank (so yes, I missed the “Great Moments in Professionalism” queue), when a Vice President dropped in. We were not a business casual workplace except on Saturday (again, Big Bank). I spent the day hiding in my cubicle and making sure no one could see me.

        I was not ashamed of what I was wearing (it was Friday, a dripping hot summer, I was the office “college kid”, and only then starting to build a wardrobe), but my big boss had become a mentor (still one of the best, and most caring, I ever had) and I realized it would potentially send the wrong message about her, not just me.

        That’s when I started thinking about clothing differently and how it sends a message. Wearing leggings in a business casual (rather than casual casual, such as a retail store, call center, or job where you haul equipment) environment says, “I care more about being comfortable, and trendy, than anything else.”

      2. Clever Name*

        Honestly, very few people can get away with wearing whatever they want and not have it reflect on people’s perceptions of their ability to do their jobs. Those people are ninjas/rock stars/whatever, and can name their price to work wherever they want. The rest of us need to think about how we present ourselves to the world.

    7. LAI*

      I’m in California and I’m wearing stretchy black pants that could potentially be mistaken for leggings – they have seams though, so by my definition, that makes them pants.

      1. Cheddar2.0*

        Seams? I didn’t realize that made a difference… I have 2 pairs of what I would consider “leggings” and they both have seams! I guess I think about it more from the angle of “are these pants pretty much skin tight? Are they not denim? If yes, then leggings”

        1. Mpls*

          +1 – leggings can still have seams. Tights usually just have seams at the toes (if they have them at all), but leggings, even made from stretchy fabric, still has to be sewn together (seams) in order to become body shaped.

          If you can pull them on without unbuttoning, then you have leggings.

          1. LQ*

            I have straight up jeans (not tight jeans, loose bootcut ones) and trousers that can be pulled on without unbuttoning…they are not leggings….Who made this rule.

            1. Kelly L.*

              Yeah, that rule doesn’t work. I used to have a pair of (amazing) pants that were dress pant material, wide leg, pretty loose, and elastic-waisted. They were completely opaque, not tight, and gave the impression of dress pants everywhere I wore them. Loosely fitted dress pants, but dress pants. They weren’t leggings.

              To me, leggingness is about how snug they are on your leg and having an elastic waist. So skinny jeans are skin-tight but don’t have an elastic waist, so they’re not leggings. Elastic-waisted wide-leg pants aren’t leggings, because they’re loose. I think you need both.

              1. Juli G.*

                I used to have some like that from Express and I lost them and have never found a replacement pair. Where did you get yours?!?

        2. peanut butter kisses*

          I used to wear a pair of leggings to work in the 90’s. I was a size 12 at the time and was having health problems with weight gain and loss so I went to the plus size department and got a size 3 x pair and they looked loose and comfortable and in my work environment – appropriate. They got me through the year until my health recovered. They just looked like loose knit pants.

    8. Sparrow*

      I wear legging jeans all the time in the fall and winter tucked into boots. However, they are thicker, jean material. I also have Ponte knit pants that are like leggings in that they are fitted through the leg. In both cases, I always wear a top that covers my butt and crotch.

      I have actual leggings that I wear at home for lounging, but not to work. I have seen teenagers and women wearing leggings with a shorter top and I agree, it’s not always a work appropriate look.

    9. Snoskred*

      I worked with a woman who wore leggins as pants, and she wore them until you could see right through them to her underwear *and* butt crack – and then instead of kneeling down at a desk, she would bend over with her legs totally straight and rest both her arms on the desk.

      Butt crack in the workplace is never a good thing, in my opinion. :)

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          Exactly! My daughter and I have taken to giving one another the “butt report” upon returning from an outing — that’s how frequently we see unintentionally-uncovered butts out in public.

          Me: I saw three butts today.

          Daughter: I only saw one — but I saw one yesterday! Can I count it?

          That’s how bad it is around here.

      1. Jennifer*

        This reminds me of my mom’s comments about her supervisor’s wearing a thong and how everyone can see it.

    10. Koko*

      I don’t know that they’re business casual, but I know fewer and fewer workplaces with a business casual dress code these days. More and more people I know who don’t see clients/customers can wear whatever they want as long as it’s well-fitting, clean, and not obscene. I’ve actually noticed an increase in this as recent as the last few years. I frequently wear (thick) leggings and stretchy skinny jeans at work, but the only people who see me are my coworkers.

    11. Anna*

      Under dresses or skirts I have no problem with. As actual pants, just no. I work with young adults who haven’t quite figured out what a dress code is and I see leggings as pants all the time. It makes me crazy. I wander around muttering it under my breath, “Leggings are not pants, leggings are not pants.” Although I did have to school a coworker once that while leggings are not appropriate as pants, it’s not the wearer’s responsibility that it might make the young men around “think things.”

    12. Clever Name*

      I am really glad you said this. I feel like a catty beeyotch for thinking this, but our new admin, who has been here less than 2 weeks, wears stretch pants (or leggings for you young’ins). With a normal top. You can see her whole butt. I actually am currently wearing leggings now. However, I am wearing them with a sweater dress, and I didn’t go into the office today. Heck, I feel like I’m being daring when I wear skinny jeans with a long cardigan.

  6. Ali*

    So I ended up getting fired on Monday. I returned from vacation on Sunday, went to work Monday morning and my boss promptly called me to a meeting when I tried to sign on, then disabled my access to e-mail and everything right away. I hadn’t had my phone on all night, and he left me two voice mails and texted me to get me into the meeting, which I felt was kind of harassing like. (I’ve never had to have my phone on 24/7 as part of my job.) I filed for unemployment immediately after getting off the call and sent in my paperwork for student loan deferment.

    I have to admit that even though I’m upset about being unemployed because everyone else I know has a job and I feel kind of worthless, I’m also relieved to be out of my toxic environment. No more constant scrutiny and being written up for every little error. No more frequently changing schedules or being tasked with the shifts no one else would do. No more being told I can’t grow within my company. (And I worked for a BIG company, so I was upset they would not find anything else for me to do.)

    I had a phone interview yesterday for a position that didn’t seem to be the right fit, and I’m still waiting to hear back from a company I interviewed with before my vacation. I really hope something works out soon, but I’m also considering trying another industry. (I want to break into the nonprofit sector.) We’ll see what happens…I just wish something good would occur!

    1. some1*

      I have been there and I am so, so sorry. Please don’t feel worthless because it’s happened to almost everyone. I know there was a thread awhile back where people shared horrible firing stories that felt really cathartic to me, because so many commenters one here that I like, respect and know to be professional and articulate had gone through it to.

    2. Adam V*

      > (And I worked for a BIG company, so I was upset they would not find anything else for me to do.)

      Some years ago, I was let go from a big company right after Christmas, and I felt the exact same as you – you’ve got so many different development positions, you can’t find a group to put me into?

      Best of luck with the job search!

      1. Bea W*

        When I got laid off I and also one of my friend as well who worked for an even bigger company, we were both told we could apply to internal positions, but it wasn’t any different than applying internally when not being laid off. It really would be a benefit to both the company and the employee if companies would be more pro-active about trying to place at least some of those RIFs into unfilled positions.

    3. Chorizo*

      I got fired from a job in which I knew I wasn’t performing up to my manager’s expectations. I was upset when it happened. The next day, I felt like a huge weight had been lifted from my shoulders. Got everything crossed for you!!

      1. Ali*

        That’s what happened to me! My boss just said “You haven’t improved to our standards, and we’re letting you go.” Towards the end, I felt like the only standard they would accept was perfection. In my final warning, he even wrote how he “will not tolerate” anymore mistakes from me, even though he admitted that other colleagues made them too. Yeesh.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You boss does not know a lot about management. I hope that thought gives you an ounce of comfort as you picture him struggling on and you are about to launch a fresh chapter in your life with a fresh slate. And he is… well, stuck in the same crappy place.

    4. Minding your biscuits...*

      I’ve been in your situation and it’s a weird feeling – you’re relieved to be out of there but still feel bad about not having a job. Just know that you will land on your feet – and probably with a better job than you had before! :)

      Several years ago I was fired from a truly dysfunctional workplace. My manager was really unethical and I have reason to believe that she blamed me for things that happened that *she* actually did. This workplace was having an effect on my health, and not a good one. I had been job hunting for a few months prior before being let go, and I ended up starting a new position within three weeks – AND I got a 15% raise!

      Keep your chin up, work towards trying to find a BETTER position, and when you’re ready – reflect on what you would have done differently in your old role (if anything). It took me a very long time to get “over” being fired but I’ve realized in my (older) age that I would have handled a few things differently.

    5. Allison*

      I’ve been there too! I was fired from my first job around this time last year, and while I felt like a failure for getting fired, I was also relieved when I realized I no longer had to go back there and deal with those people anymore! I’d been feeling sense of dread on my way to that job every morning. Something better will come along!

      1. Ali*

        So much this. I was on vacation last week, and on my last day, I was in tears when I realized I had to go back to work.

        I also forgot to mention that my company isn’t paying out any of my remaining vacation time. They decided to “call it even” on the days I had taken to date. That’s extra income I really could’ve used, so that’s tough.

        1. fposte*

          A lot of places don’t, but some are required to. Is it company policy to pay out? Are you in a state where it counts as compensation?

        2. Nerdling*

          That may not be legal, depending on whether you had already earned the time. You might want to check with a lawyer on that one.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            You could even ask at the unemployment office. If you see the eye roll then you will know that you are not the first person they have done this to. Never underestimate the folks at the unemployment office they know all about what is going on in various businesses. They know who has a good rep and who does not.

        3. TeapotCounsel*

          Another vote with checking on lawyer. It may not be legal for them to keep your accrued vacation time.

    6. Retail Lifer*

      Been there, although is was a far less toxic environment than I am in now. Honestly, since I can’t seem to find a new job, I almost wouldn’t mind getting fired just to get out of here. Almost.

      Good luck, and at least you’re out of there!

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Good luck with the job hunt. I’m glad you are out of the toxic workplace. I felt the same way when I got laid off–ugh, I have no job and I suck, but I was actually relieved to finally escape the madness.

    8. Tris Prior*

      Really sorry to hear that, Ali – but I know you’ve been struggling with this place for a while and that it’s been a very toxic place. I hope you find something that is worlds better!

    9. Carrie in Scotland*

      While I’m sorry to hear this Ali, I think it will lead to better things for you in the end and then this job/workplace will be like a bad dream.

      Keep your head up and be kind to yourself.

    10. Sunflower*

      I’m so sorry. I know it’s been tough there for you for a while. Hoping you find something good soon.

    11. Golden Yeti*

      Hi, Ali. Just wanted to say I’m sorry things have broken down to that extent. I am happy, though, that you are able to finally move on completely. Best of wishes for better and brighter days!

    12. Helen of What*

      I’m sorry that you’re unemployed, but hopefully you’ll find a better job soon! I was fired in February from a painful job. The worst part of it after the initial indignity was working out how to explain it in interviews. I want to tell them how the awfulness of my company drained my enthusiasm and made it easier to be overwhelmed and burnt out…but of course, I just have to take the hit of saying why I was let go and risk them thinking I can’t handle a fast paced environment (so not true!)
      But hey, I’m not in the poorhouse yet and I now know a lot more about the warning signs of bad management! (There were red flags from the interview which I ignored, ugh!) I bet you’ll also have an easier time heeding those red flags.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I’m sorry but I am relieved for you, all in the same stroke. I hope that makes sense. You had a boss that thought that your failure implied he was successful. And that is so distorted, I can’t even begin to comprehend that, but there it is. New Nice Boss is right around the corner, keep believing that.

    14. Jean*

      Carrie in Scotland: “Keep your head up and be kind to yourself.”
      +1. Actually, +a lot more than one.
      Being forced to part with a toxic workplace is a blessing. It may not even be a blessing in disguise!
      Good wishes to you as you move forward from this unhappy situation to something better. Take care of yourself along the way.

    15. Lady Bug*

      I was fired from an extremely disfunctional workplace in November. I definitely felt worthless and had a few crying spells. It took me 4 months to find a job, but I ended up at a much more functional place, with a 25% higher salary, doing what I really wanted to do. I probably applied to close to 70 jobs and only had six interviews, 4 of which were clearly a bad fit, so don’t get discouraged. My husband kept saying it only takes one good one! I couldn’t be happier now. And I learned from my ex coworkers that in January paychecks started arriving late and bouncing! So, even though it sounds like total cliché bs, everything happens for a reason.

  7. Pizza Lover*

    Happy Friday! I’d love to get some feedback from the AAM community on how best to deal with tension between coworkers.

    My boss (the Director) and our new hire (Deputy Director) do not get along at all. The relationship started off fine but became patchy very early on due to miscommunication and misunderstanding on both parts. They’ve sat down and talked about their issues at least 3 times, but it seems to me like it really comes down to totally different working styles and neither of them being able (or truly willing) to adapt much. While the new hire is a lovely lady, it’s pretty clear to me that she was not the right choice, since you also have to hire for culture as well. At this point they have come to a hesitant truce, but there is so much tension. My boss and I have generally had a great working relationship, but now the dynamics have totally changed because the Deputy expressed to my boss that she was feeling like the third wheel. So whenever I joke around with my boss now, I feel like I’m committing adultery or something because it’s now only in her office quietly or via email, it’s so bizarre…

    I’m rambling, but I guess I would like some insight on how best to deal with this situation. We share a very small space (my desk is literally a step away from the new hire’s) and so I don’t want things to become awkward between us. To make things even more uncomfortable for me, she is about forty years my senior, a very sweet lady, and appears to be very sensitive (for example, she reads so much into email tone that she gets offended, thinking that person has a problem with her when no, they were probably shooting off a quick email from their phone or something). I’d love to just keep my head down, and that’s pretty much what I’ve been doing, but it’s impossible to ignore the tension in the entire office, especially since with only 3 employees there are very few distractions. Any other suggestions?

    To give some background, I am a coordinator in a 3 person office. My role is administrative mixed with managerial duties. I’ve been here the longest and our office is more lateral than hierarchal, but technically I’m the low man on the totem pole. I am also the youngest employee.

    1. Adam V*

      I’d do what you’re doing – keep your head down and stay out of it. If you’re explicitly pulled in and asked for your opinion, try to stay objective, but if it keeps happening, I don’t know that I wouldn’t go to your boss sometime and say “boss, I know we need a deputy director, but I really don’t know that Sally is working out – you two always seem to be arguing about something – and it might be better to let her go, re-open the search and pay more attention to getting the right culture fit next time”.

    2. ac*

      I have a somewhat similar situation — I was hired by and primarily work for Sr. Boss, and a few years ago Jr. Boss (who has the same title but is more junior and has less power than Sr. Boss — but more experience & power than me) was hired into our office. The venn diagram of working styles between Jr. and Sr. Boss barely overlap — I’m not sure you could hire two people with different working styles if you tried. The plan for Jr. Boss to taken on work with Sr. Boss has just not gone anywhere because of this disconnect, but our work is such that Jr. Boss primarily works with others in our company so he’s been pretty successful anyway.

      For me, I try to keep out of it and make things a little easier/more comfortable when the opportunity presents. E.g., I mention “Jr. Boss and I were talking about how we should do ___” in a meeting with Sr. Boss since I know the two literally do not talk to each other. It’s a weird and uncomfortable situation at times, and I just pretend that it isn’t as much as I can.

      1. Pizza Lover*

        This is pretty much how I feel, except they are not at the point yet of not talking. I have to “translate” a lot of the correspondence between them. Either they are really short with each other or overly nice. If it wasn’t so awkward it might be kind of entertaining!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think we all have to change a little bit at least to adapt to a new job. Don’t put yourself in the middle of it, but if she asks your opinion or asks you to explain something the do so. Explain in a manner that if your explanation was repeated to the boss, the boss would be proud of how you handled it.
      What I am picking up on here is the sensitivity issues. Role-model a balanced perspective. It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things so this should be almost natural for you.
      For example: If she comments on a email that seems to short, then say something like, “oh you will see a lot of that here. People are always hurrying. The most important part is that they acknowledge you when you talk to them, which a short email is an acknowledgement.” If you can, expand that explanation out as to what she will be doing, “As you go along, you will get busier and busier too, so you will also be sending those short emails, too.”

  8. Minding your biscuits...*

    I interviewed for an internal position about a month ago – let’s call it a Senior Teapot Maker position. At the time, I was very excited about the position, as well as the person I would be reporting to.

    Since interviewing, I found out that someone else will indeed be leading this team (Teapot Leader). They are hiring for this position currently. I believe that they are trying to fill this open Leader position first, and then hire the Senior Teapot Maker.

    If I am hired, I would like to meet with the Teapot Leader before deciding to accept the position. It’s very important for me to have a similar outlook/management styles with my leader and make sure that we sync up on the important issues. The department that these roles are in is essentially being rebuilt because of lots of issues/dysfunction so having a leader that I align with is even more important. Would it be reasonable to request to meet with the Teapot Leader before making a decision?

    1. Adam V*

      Yes, that makes sense to me. Honestly, I’d be surprised if the new Teapot Leader didn’t want to weigh in on the new Senior Teapot Maker opening anyway.

    2. sittingduck*

      I think its a reasonable request – as long as the timeline works out.

      If they are hiring for both positions right now, and come to you with an offer, but haven’t chosen a new Leader yet, what are you going to do? You could ask to make your decision after they hire the leader, but depending on how long that takes, it could be a long wait, and they may not want to wait to fill your position that long.

      So I would just be prepared for them to say that you can’t meet the leader, because they haven’t chosen one yet.

    3. Jazzy Red*

      I think it’s absolutely reasonable to do so.

      At my former place of employment, I was interviewed by the guy who would be my manager, his boss, and the big boss of the division. I liked the guy I would be working for, so I took the job. When I reported for work, I found that they had transferred him and hired a new guy, who would be my boss. I never did care much for him, and when he left 2 years later, the first guy came back to that job. I felt like they did a bait-and-switch with me, but eventually I came to realize that all the management at this company was completely clueless about running a business.

      It’s a big deal to “click” with your boss. Your work life is just so much better when that happens.

  9. Ann Furthermore*

    Just venting today. I asked to take a training class to learn how to use a tool that I’ll be implementing later in the year. I’ve never used it, or anything like it before. I found a class but it’s very expensive. But there’s an option to take it virtually, or locally in a few months so at least there would be no travel costs.

    Request denied. Not my boss’s fault, the training budget for this year is laughable, and our parent company keeps slashing further, making everyone give back money, which is leading to projects being cut or put on hold. My boss said that they were exploring having someone from one of the India locations come here to train a few of us on the tool, and it is someone who knows both the front end (my focus) and the technical side, which others will need to know.

    So yeah, they’re trying to come up with alternative solutions, which is better than nothing. But this is just so aggravating. Parent company, how do you expect us to support your multi-billion dollar business if you won’t cough up any money for us to maintain the infrastructure?

    1. OfficePrincess*

      Wait. I get that the training budget is tiny, but I’m not seeing how taking a virtual training with no travel is cheaper than flying someone in from India and paying for hotel, meals, etc. I can definitely see why this would be aggravating!

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          Yep, there are 2 of us that really need training. The first is me, who will be implementing from the front end of the application, and a developer, who will be building the data repositories and so on. Evidently the resource in India knows both sides of things, so he can train us both.

          But OfficePrincess is right — for both my co-worker and me to take training classes would be a minimum of $10,000. Bringing someone here from India would probably cost about that same amount. But that money would probably come out of a different bucket in the budget where there’s more money (i.e. flexibility). It’s a stupid shell game. But the person from India could also work on things with others in the office while he’s here, maybe it’s the best use of funds in the long run.

  10. Sunflower*

    For long distance job hunters- do you prefer to put a local address on your resume or write ‘relocating to city in X month’. I’ve been writing ‘relocating’ and it hasn’t got me anywhere. At what point do you fess up that you actually don’t live there and don’t have a place to live yet and how do you acknowledge it to the interviewer? I only live about 1.5 hours away so getting there for an interview on short notice isn’t too difficult

    1. Christian Troy*

      I do not write relocation to x city or use a local address. I mention at the end of the cover letter that I do not require relocation assistance but draw anymore attention to it. If you live an hour and a half away, I don’t see why it would be a huge deal breaker but I also think it depends on your competition and field.

        1. Christian Troy*

          Oh you know, just cruising Ask a Manager to improve McNamara/Troy operations… ;)

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’ve never done that, but it sounds good!

        In the past, when I’ve done cross-country job searches, I’ve put my current address and then just mentioned in the cover letter that I’m moving, when, and why.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        The potential downside of that is that if they just skim your cover letter, they may miss it. Or they may read your resume first (I do that a lot), see you’re not local, and move on.

        Also, resumes often get passed around when cover letters don’t, so you want it on there in case they’re separated.

      3. Christian Troy*

        The issue I personally had with that was that people told me to contact them when I was done moving, like they weren’t going to start the interview process until I actually got there. It certainly depends on your situation, like if you plan on moving to New City because of your SO, but in my case I was applying to jobs that seemed like great opportunities in many different cities.

        Similar to the poster, I applied to some jobs at a city about two hours away but because they had a great university with a great grad program in my field, they had a great pool of local applicants.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I had the most luck when I had a firm moving date. I started sending out my cover letter and resume (mentioning my move date in both – on the resume like Alison describes below) about 4 months before moving. I started getting far more responses around 6-8 weeks before moving, but it was a 2000 mile move, so you may have better luck sooner since you’re only 1.5 hours away.

    3. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Honestly, maybe it’s just because I’m in DC and a 1.5 hour commute on the daily is not unheard of, but I’d try out not mentioning it at all on a couple applications, just using your current address, and seeing what happens. If you know, in your context, that that would be crazy, then just ignore me, but it could be the you’re calling attention to a problem that, for at least some of your employers, isn’t a problem at all?

      1. Sunflower*

        I very clearly live in a different metro area- I live in CC philly and I am looking in NYC. I know there are people who it can take that long to commute into NYC from north jersey so I almost wonder if I’d have more luck if I put an address in central NJ!

  11. Blue Anne*

    Following on from sexist work atmosphere discussion from last week…

    It’s gotten worse this week. On Wednesday there were a LOT of bad comments. Eventually in the afternoon one of the guys said “You know what an advantage of being a woman is, you can get a load of time off work by having a baby.”

    I went full “WOW. WOW.” on him for that one and everyone laughed at him quite a bit. Also worked in a sarcastic comment about what a wonderful atmosphere this was to work in, with all the comments like this. It went down well, not hostile but I thought they got the message.

    It’s been a bit better since then, except that not ten minutes ago the manager made a “funny” comments about killing strippers. I immediately sent him a message on our inter-office communicator asking him if he could please not. He said he understands and apologised.

    I’m out of the office all next weekm but back on this assignment the week after. Let’s hope they’re starting to get the message…

    1. Blue Anne*

      Oh! Actually, I have a question!

      One of the things that bugged me that I found out on Wednesday is that all the men in our department are arranging to have social activities together outside of work. It’s specifically a “guy’s drinks” – all the men in the department are invited, but the women are not invited. This weekend they are going to the races, about a dozen men. This is apparently the second time they’ve had a men-only outing together.

      I know there’s no way to control people’s social activities outside of work, and I wouldn’t want to, but… this bugs me. Am I being unreasonable? Is there any good way to address it?

      1. Christy*

        You’re totally not being unreasonable. This is like taking employees golfing at the (all-white, all-male, all-Christian) country club. It’s not acceptable.

      2. Anie*

        I always feel weird about things like that. On one hand, I probably don’t want to join, but on the other I’d like the option. It’s choosing not to participate versus being actively excluded.

        1. Blue Anne*

          “It’s choosing not to participate versus being actively excluded.”

          This is EXACTLY the issue.

      3. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Totally reasonable. You’re missing out on networking opportunities because of your gender. Definitely not OK.

        1. MT*

          if the company isnt paying for it then, its up to them who they invite. And if everyone is peers, no management, then its fine as well.

          1. Koko*

            That’s what I’d say too. If managers go, then it’s denying opportunities to women for face time with bosses. If it’s all a group of peers it’s just a social activity.

      4. Sunflower*

        Is your company organizing or paying for this? If so, then yes definitely bring up with management that people are being left out of networking activities.

        If not…then there isn’t really anything you can do. People can chose who they want to spend time with outside of work. I mean, is there even networking or work related talk going on? If I went out with the ladies but not men in my dept, just to get drinks or hang out, I’d be pissed if someone complained to management about it.

        1. Blue Anne*

          It’s not being paid for or organised by the company. So yeah, I’m leaning towards thinking there’s nothing I can do.

          But I’m annoyed because… It’s not a small department, and the guys organising know I know about it and answered my questions about it. There’s maybe 50 people in our department and it’s split pretty evenly gender-wise. So it’s not like if I asked a couple of my buddies who happened to be women… This invitation has been extended to about 25 people, but there’s not so much as I “we didn’t think you’d like the races but you’re welcome if you’d like!” when I found out. Because I’m a woman.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            OK, if someone walked into your office right now and said to any that could hear “Hey! Anyone interested in going to the races this weekend?” what would be your immediate reaction? Would this be something that you would want to do? Because if it is, and they’ve already answered your questions about it, there’s no harm in asking if you can come too. “Percival, when you were talking about going to see the trotters and pacers this weekend, do you think it would be OK if I came along? I’ve never been to a horse race and it might be fun”. Granted, you probably don’t want to go because they’re a bunch of sexist eejits and you get enough of that during the work week to not want more of that on your time off. And, they’ll probably use the time to complain about Work! Women! Political Correctness! or whatever gets them fully wound.

            But here’s the thing, if these are colleagues who are planning this as a social thing in their time off because they don’t have wives/children/families that they are accountable for, there’s nothing you can do about it. Birds of a feather and all that. Unless you want to start your own Stitch n’ Bitch club that none of the boys will want to go to and network just you girls on the weekend/week night. Yes, it sucks but there is nothing you can do. At OldJob, certain colleagues were in a band, a band that played at work functions. All those (male) colleagues did the “we’re all friends together” thing and it did help their careers but unless you played a mean slide guitar, others weren’t “in”. You think when you grow up that all the stupid cliqueishness of high school would end but it’s like that stuff is just training for adulthood — where being part of the “right” network/club/hobby group/executive meeting/whatever really counts. :(

          2. Sunflower*

            Any chance you’re working with a group of men who believe in ‘reverse sexism’? I’ve noticed there are men who believe they are missing out on opportunities and being unfairly discriminated against because they are not allowed to be part of the women’s initiative program at their company.

            1. Blue Anne*

              That is absolutely a possibility. The firm has set aggressive, public targets for increasing the percentage of women at the higher grades in the next few years, and there are persistent rumours that many of the ambitious men are looking to exit the firm as a result because they feel “men won’t get promoted here in the next 5 years”.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Sounds like that’s what they’re doing with the activities. They’re closing ranks.

                I hate working with dinosaurs. (Unless they were actual dinosaurs, mind you–but brontosaurus, not velociraptors!)

                1. Blue Anne*

                  I would totally love to work with actual dinosaurs. That would make audit so much better.

                  Metaphorical dinosaurs are turning out to be a pain.

              2. Juli G.*

                HATE those rumors. Yes, we have an aggressive strategy to increase female leaders but seriously… do you see a shortage of men around here? Did 2 not get promoted last month? Men are going to be okay.

        1. Blue Anne*

          I’m not sure whether the boss is going. I’m trying to find out without being super obvious.

          1. Laurel Gray*

            If the boss is involved, he is contributing the most to the low morale in the office among the women and may be a central part of the problem than the pigs you work with.

      5. Laurel Gray*

        I’ve never worked with men who only want to socialize with male coworkers. Especially when they have an opportunity to get away for a few hours from their families and let their hair down. I’m even more surprised that at least one person in the group hasn’t asked about women or extended the invite to women. The men you work with sound like weirdo chauvinist losers. If these outings are not company paid, I would let it go.

        1. MT*

          that is a harsh statement. There are lots of times, I would rather go out with male friends then with a mixed group.

          1. fposte*

            But she’s talking about male co-workers, not men generally, and male co-workers who *always* go out in a single-sex group, not who feel like it sometimes.

            And preferences wouldn’t be enough to keep it from being non-discriminatory if it ended up being associated with advancement or other benefits. When it’s work related, the law matters more than individual tastes.

            1. MT*

              if all of the men in the group are peers, and these outings have nothing to do with work. Then people should mind their own business who hangs out with who.

              1. Stephanie*

                I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Inevitably, shop talk will come up. There’s a history of boys’ club outings like this being where at least informal networking happens, excluding others.

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                But you’re looking at it in a vacuum. You can’t uncouple this from this historical context, whereby women were systemically excluded and harmed by not being include in male colleagues’ out-of-office socializing. It’s a well-documented issue that has had real ramifications on women’s careers.

                1. Dynamic Beige*

                  Right — but what are you going to do? Run crying to the boss that it’s not fair that all the boys go out with each other and exclude all the girls? These are not corporate “taking a client out the strip club” or for golfing at the exclusive country club that doesn’t allow women players on the green sales jerk trips. These are a bunch of guys who — for whatever reason — want to hang out together. They could be collaborating on their own startup or LARPing or building battle bots or doing men’s choral singing and this “going to the races” is just cover. You can’t legislate other people’s social lives. Even if it sucks and it means you don’t get the same opportunities to network that they do. If this was actively being condoned or funded or pushed or joined by upper management as a good example of team building in off hours, then you might have some toehold into how it’s exclusionary. But a group of like-minded guys on the same level of the hierarchy who are all “Hey Bob, wanna go to the titty bar tonight? Sam, Brian, Earl, George and the rest of the gang are in.” isn’t something that you can change. They have to be willing to change that dynamic within themselves. And until they get girlfriends and wives, they aren’t likely to.

                2. MT*

                  People who name call, “weirdo chauvinist losers” and “pigs” based on someone’s sex, may be a reason why people tend to socialize with people they have the most in common with.

                3. LBK*

                  Wait, really? You think the chauvinism accusation is purely because they’re men and not because they’re clearly exhibit chauvinistic behavior?

                4. MT*

                  what is chauvinistic behavior about guys wanting to hang out with guys. I dont see any women complaining when the girls have events. The term was thrown out becuase someone was upset this wasnt 2nd grade soccer and someone was left out.

                5. LBK*

                  Also, Dynamic Beige, that is a shitty attitude, and I don’t know how else to say it. You’re basically saying women should just suck it up that they don’t get networking opportunities because there’s nothing they can do about it? How about the men stop being exclusionary? I’m hard pressed to believe there isn’t a single activity the team could do as a group that would interest people of multiple genders. Plenty of women like getting drinks after work, for example, and it sounds by Blue Anne’s description that that’s all this group is doing. You’re telling me that’s somehow an event that only “like-minded people” (who are coincidentally all male) can participate in?

                  Look, I’m not saying you can have your close group of friends at work that you hang out with more often than others. I certainly do – I have lunch with the same coworker every day and we don’t invite anyone else. But if you’re openly discussing a group activity in the office and there’s as clear a delineation along gender lines as there is here, you need to at least stop and think twice about whether that’s appropriate.

                  It’s also really gross to think that somehow men are only capable of being appreciative or inclusive of women unless they’re dating one. Just wrong on so many levels and frankly insulting to both genders.

                6. LBK*

                  They specifically called it a guy’s night and did not invite women. If your friends are all coincidentally male, whatever, although I’m skeptical that that’s possible for anyone who isn’t categorically excluding women from their social life, unintentionally or otherwise. But deliberately inviting only the men in the office to an event that you’re clearly openly discussing while at work is blatantly exclusionary.

                7. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Well, one thing she could do is talk to someone in a position of power and say: “The firm has set aggressive, public targets for increasing the percentage of women at the higher grades in the next few years. Simultaneously, we still have a culture where my male colleagues routinely make sexist remarks around me and organize male-employee-only social events. If we’re serious about creating an equal playing field for women, those things need to be addressed too, not just hiring targets.”

                8. Dynamic Beige*

                  LBK, I can’t reply to your comment directly, the “reply” thing isn’t there.

                  “You’re basically saying women should just suck it up that they don’t get networking opportunities because there’s nothing they can do about it? How about the men stop being exclusionary?”

                  OK, please provide a way to get people to do this. Seriously. You yourself say you have a work friend and you go to lunch with only each other. What if other people in your company resent that you and Jane are such fast friends and why do you only hang out with each other? Why don’t you go to the vegan fusion restaurant instead of Meaty McMeatersons, so that I, a vegan may eat with you? That is not fair and you are being exclusionary to people who don’t eat meat by repeatedly choosing only the restaurants that I as a vegan/celiac/kosher individual cannot patronise. How quickly would you resent being told where you could or could not eat every day (or with who) so that more people from your company could go along with you so that they, too, can network or interface or get more Face Time with you and your friend? Where you spend your lunch, and who you spend it with, is entirely your choice. Your friend is someone you get along with, you probably have similar interests — what if you both were avid knitters? Just choosing that as it’s something that most men are not usually interested in. What if you started a “learn to knit” club on a specific weeknight for yourself, your work friend, maybe you invite Penelope from accounting, or [these other women at your company] because they had all expressed at one point or another what an awesome knitter you are and they wished they could knit like you. Should the men in your company automatically get pissed off that you will be able to talk and network around this activity that they are not interested in? Even if you had permission to put up a sign-up sheet in the kitchen so that anyone who wanted to could go? Should they go to your boss or CEO and demand that you change your group into something that both sexes can do or would participate in?

                  Don’t get me wrong: it sucks that these dudes do this. They suck. They are obviously perpetuating stereotypes and doing a lot to not only skirt the edge of creating a hostile work environment but also to intentionally exclude those they do not like. But what can you do about it? If they are not willing to change, and nothing they are doing is illegal, then there is nothing that can be done. How many times has it been said here that just because it isn’t fair doesn’t mean it’s illegal?

                  I’m hard pressed to believe there isn’t a single activity the team could do as a group that would interest people of multiple genders. Plenty of women like getting drinks after work, for example, and it sounds by Blue Anne’s description that that’s all this group is doing. You’re telling me that’s somehow an event that only “like-minded people” (who are coincidentally all male) can participate in?

                  But don’t you think that if these guys were genuinely interested in something that both genders could do, they wouldn’t be doing it already? And, please remember that this isn’t a company-sponsored event. CEO hasn’t said that this is something *he* wants to do and then gone around to only the men in the company to invite them to his super-secret men’s drumming retreat. If these guys were interested in making it more inclusive, yes, they could have movie night, or board game night, or drinks night. But they’re not. And as someone who is not in management is arranging these for the people he likes to hang with — or thinks will advance his career — there would need to be someone higher up in the company who would have to sit this guy down and tell him to tone it down, that this company is not a social club and if he wants to arrange outings for his group of friends, then he should be doing it on his own time and being quieter about it as the optics of it are not good. But short of firing this guy, no one can tell him not to do it. Even if they did fire him, he could still do it, it’s his personal time.

                  It’s also really gross to think that somehow men are only capable of being appreciative or inclusive of women unless they’re dating one. Just wrong on so many levels and frankly insulting to both genders.

                  OK, fair enough, but we are not talking about all men. There has already been substantial evidence that *this specific group of men* are not interested in including the wimmenfolk, do not see anything wrong with not including them, and see nothing wrong with the comments they are making or the views they are espousing and are frequently repeating back to each other in their own echo chamber. So, how would you go about changing that? If these guys do not have a wife or girlfriend, the only time they have exposure to women is at work. If they do not have someone at home who will insist upon being treated like an equal, or that certain language or phrases aren’t used because they’re wrong/demeaning/hurtful, where are they going to pick it up? As much as it’s “gross” to you, I have seen guys who, once they get into a relationship, change because now they get it. Or after being shot down for the millionth time, they clue in that being a sexist dweeb isn’t going to get them what they want and decide to examine their attitudes because they don’t want to be single forever. You can send someone to Paging Dr. Nerdlove, but you cannot make him read it or open his mind if he’s determined to keep it shut. Even Dr. Nerdlove started out by embracing the PUA community… but was smart enough to not stay mired there.

                  If this company was genuinely committed to gender equality, there would be female executives/managers, an effective HR department, sensitivity training, zero tolerance on some of the comments that Blue Anne reports. But there doesn’t seem there is any of that. If management is so tone deaf that they don’t know they shouldn’t be attending an male only event arranged by one of their employees/direct reports, who is going to show them the evil of their ways? Who is going to stick around at that company long enough and put up with that crap, and document it to show that male bias by paying enough attention to see who gets the promotions or plum assignments to file a discrimination lawsuit? And then take all the flak for filing?

                  So, since I’ve apparently set you off, LBK, I am going to suggest the one thing that Blue Anne can do: start arranging an after work drinks event that is open to all comers (or other thing: ultimate frisbee, darts tournaments, pool). It could be once a week, or once a month. It could be at the same place all the time, or as a way to try out different places. If she can get it so that she is just one of a team of people (both male and female) who are doing this, so much the better because there are enough letters here from women complaining that they are solely responsible for birthdays/parties/making cookies/being social convener. But, then there are going to be people who grouse that they can’t go because they: don’t drink and drive/have a commute/have kids to pick up/other reason. It may not even be something that she has to arrange herself. There could be a Meetup or other thing in her community for people in her industry that already exists that they could all benefit from.

                9. Blue Anne*

                  Alison – I think that’s exactly what I’m going to do. I’m on the gender steering committee for my office and we have a call next week. I’ll bring this up during AOB.

                  If nothing else, I’ve noticed that as the most junior member of that committee, I definitely see stuff happening “on the ground” that the senior folks assume isn’t a problem because no one would dare make those jokes around a partner. So even if nothing gets done, it might be a good idea to raise it.

              3. Blue Anne*

                I’m also not even sure about the “peers” thing. I work in public accounting. My big worry would be if a partner is showing up to this stuff. But below that, I know for sure that people with seniority over me are going. One of the assistant managers is the one who confirmed this stuff for me when I asked.

                1. Stephanie*

                  Oof. Are you at one of the Big 4 firms? I know a couple of people on here are alumni, so they could more accurately comment. From my understanding about a lot of professional services firms, your long-term success definitely depends on your ability to network into the right projects (that was the impression I got when I interviewed for a non-accounting role at one of the Big 4). So I could definitely see this being problematic.

                2. Koko*

                  Yikes, that’s not good. If anyone who has any sort of sway over hiring, firing, promotions, raises, work assignments, etc. is attending then it’s discriminatory not to allow the women the same opportunity to network with those higher-ups.

                3. Blue Anne*

                  Yep, Big 4. (You may be able to guess which from my username.) I’ve only been here 8 months but networking seems really, really big. I mean, I’m seriously considering taking up golf.

                4. PoorDecisions101*

                  I find it interesting that some gender diverse industries may have more of these issues than heavily male dominated industries.

                  I’ve worked in mining all my life, often as the only non-admin female person, and I always got invited to after work drinks and get along well with most people.

                  I wonder if the men in more gender neutral work places feel more threatened since they can lump all women into one homogeneous stereotype rather than as individuals.

                5. Stephanie*

                  Two are blue! Yeah, I interviewed at the blue and green one in advisory and they pretty much made it sound like I’d need to turn into a professional schmoozer past the first couple of rungs on the career ladder.

                6. Blue Anne*

                  Ahh, I thought the blue and green one is trying to get people to call it the “green dot” these days. ;)

                  There’s actually a regular golf competition between the two blue firms in this city. Yep.

              4. Laurel Gray*

                @MT…those were my statements. You call it harsh and now say I made them based on sex – I did not. I made my statements based on Blue Anne’s specific incidents with these men, which she has posted about before and my opinion stands.

                1. MT*

                  it was a reply to the historical context. If i ever heard someone spout off name calling like that, i wouldnt want to do anyhting with them outside of work.

                2. Blue Anne*

                  MT, is it possible you are suggesting that all the men in my department want to avoid hanging out with women because some women sometimes call men ‘pigs’?…

                3. MT*

                  no, sometimes guys just like to hang out with guys. My behavior is different if I am out with guys, or out with a mixed group. A lot of men are the same way. If women heard some of the unfiltered language, more than likey the word pig would fly often.

                4. LBK*

                  What kind of language are you talking about? Like if they heard you spouting sexist crap about women? Yeah, can’t imagine why they wouldn’t want to hang out with you then…

                5. CA Admin*

                  @MT

                  Then go out with your male friends who aren’t coworkers. You’re allowed to do that. My husband and his buddies do it all the time. What you can’t (or shouldn’t) do is deliberately exclude coworkers from bonding experiences on the basis of their gender.

            2. Sunflower*

              To be far, this is only the second outing they’ve had and we don’t know if they are only attending mens-only events. It’s entirely possible they often attend events with women as well.

              1. Colette*

                But they’re deliberately excluding women from work events (I.e. Open only to people who work there, and presumably planned using work resources). I suspect the company lawyers would not approve.

                1. MT*

                  why would the lawyers care. Planning a male only non work event, is not illegal. It would be hard to single out this one occurance where, salaried people spent time talking about non work events.

                2. Colette*

                  I’m not sure the courts would see it as a non-work event. It’s only employees and planned using work resources, and they’re discriminating based on gender.

                3. Blue Anne*

                  I honestly don’t see how it could be seen entirely as a non-work event. It’s organized on company time and using the company’s email, and involves only employees of my firm, including managers. Even if everyone’s paying their own way, that seems like a work event to me.

                4. thisisit*

                  this reminds me of arguments about sexual harassment. if it happens off company property, say at a bar, the company could still be liable for it, so it isn’t as if there is a clear line between work and not-work.

                  so it isn’t just about a group of male coworkers hanging out, but the possibility of a systematic exclusion of the women in the office. if it involves management or partners, then it looks especially bad, because some people (women) are clearly being excluded.

          2. steve g*

            I agree. The point of any equal rights movement is for people to get treated equally, and name calling isn’t going to help get rid of tension and create equality (if it isn’t there already). I had a different take, I’ve worked with two guys who turned into hot messes around any girl that was remotely goodlooking. If we went out with a mixed group, they usually found a reason not to go. It wasn’t a chauvinistic thing if they only invited guys to lunch.

            1. Blue Anne*

              I agree that name-calling isn’t useful and I certainly wouldn’t do it in the workplace (or elsewhere, for that matter).

              However, I do want to point out that the reason I wouldn’t call my male co-workers names is that I respect them. When they don’t invite me to events because I’m a woman, tell me jokes about killing strippers, or frequently and openly judge the women they see (including women they work with) on their physical appearance and clothing, I do not feel – at all – that the respect is mutual. And those are just the things I’ve mentioned on this site.

              1. Steve G*

                I’m surprised this is in an accounting firm, just noticed that. I was picturing a car repair shop or something with the comments made. I do think this is a problem in Accounting, especially because those firms have so many layers of management; it’s highly unlikely just one layer of employees will show up.

      6. brightstar*

        I don’t think you’re being unreasonable.

        When I worked with all men every outside function that involved work (like company is taking us golfing) was for men only and I was forced to work solo while they got wined and dined. I was never very happy about that. It had started before my employment there and continued after, when they hired a girl to replace me and also left her out of group activities.

      7. Anx*

        My coworkers organized girls nights in our mostly female workplace, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
        If the men in our org did the same thing, that’s wouldn’t bother me at all, either.

        I think the type of industry you work in makes a huge difference here. I wouldn’t begrudge a group of guys having a boys night in our situation because there’s not a whole lot of ‘getting ahead’ here, they are a numerical minority, and we have our own girls nights.

      8. ali*

        we do women’s dinners outside of work every few months – we also invite women who used to work with us that no longer do.

        completely outside of work, involving people not from work. for the most part, we even use our personal email addresses to arrange. no managers involved, either, since all the managers are men.

        so, in your opinion, would this also rub you the wrong way?

        1. Blue Anne*

          No, that seems different to me, because it’s involving people from outside the workplace and isn’t arranged through work.

          Although I don’t think that there should be female-only events organized by workplaces either.

          1. CA Admin*

            Also, women’s only events don’t come with the history of sexist baggage that men’s only events do. Men don’t have a history of being excluded from informal networking events, making it harder to get promotions. Women do. Reverse sexism is not a thing and these types of events don’t happen in a vacuum.

            1. mt*

              What a sexist statement. All i can say is, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

              1. CA Admin*

                Hardly. Men and women don’t have comparable history and power gaps still exist between the sexes. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a reality? Yes.

                Talk to me when we’ve had parity for a few hundred years and power structures are set up as gender-blind.

      9. Mints*

        I don’t have anything helpful to say, but yes, this is gross. The fact that it’s large scale and an evenly mixed group is what makes it gross. If it was one guy organizing some buddies, or if it was a bunch of people in an 80% male office, it’d be different. But this pretty clearly looks like men are deciding to do men only activities. Eugh

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      I honestly don’t see how it could be seen entirely as a non-work event. It’s organized on company time and using the company’s email, and involves only employees of my firm, including managers. Even if everyone’s paying their own way, that seems like a work event to me.

      OK, on company time, using company resources I think that is something you can definitely take to HR. It’s been an “interesting” day for me, so I’ve missed half the comments. Since you are a big firm and not a medium-sized one as I originally suspected, there must be some form of HR department. If there are policies being put into effect to address equality issues in hiring and the men are reacting badly to it, that is a genuine concern., especially to you as someone who just started 8 months ago. If you have these concerns, other women in the company probably also have them, especially if there aren’t new conduct policies in place or they aren’t being enforced. The trick is going to be in figuring out how to go to HR and what language to use. They may be addressing their staffing, but do they have any procedures in place regarding this sort of thing? They may not, as it may not have been such an issue before, and that may be the way to address it.

      “[HR person], I was wondering what the policy is for using company resources to plan social events that are not company sponsored and I hope you can help me clear this up. If I were planning a birthday party for myself, I don’t think the company would approve of me using my company e-mail to send out the invitations, correct? Or spending office hours to speak with caterers, booking a venue, talking with my guests, right? Because if that’s the case, I’m confused. I’ve noticed that Parsifal spends a lot of time each week planning social events during business hours. Please do not think I am spying on him, he has not been discreet with the events he has been planning, I don’t think there’s anyone in our department who doesn’t know about them. I don’t know if planning social events is part of his job, though. If it is, then I don’t understand why only the men in the office are being invited or why these events aren’t publicly posted somewhere so that any employee may learn about them and attend. Also, the events aren’t something that have broad appeal, they seem to be very traditionally masculine things like cigar bars. I mean, I understand that what Parsifal does in his private life is his business… but I don’t think he would like it if I were planning dinner parties in the office, inviting only my bosses and he could hear everything about it, knowing he was being shut out of that. He might think that I was using that time outside the office to network to people in the company and to press an unfair advantage over him by developing social connections with my bosses. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening here, there could be some legitimate reason why Parsifal invited x# men only to attend the Indy races last month — perhaps there is a bonus programme I am unaware of and that was part of it? However, if that is not the case and it was a purely social outing, someone looking at that situation from outside the company might think there’s gender bias at work there, and that could damage our new gender equality initiative. If it was general knowledge in the industry that that kind of thing happens here, we might have trouble attracting/retaining the best talent. I know I have felt hurt/excluded from these things and I know that I can’t expect to be friends with everyone, this isn’t grade school. Maybe if I understood the context of how and why these events were being planned or executed, I would be able to see that I’m not being purposely excluded due to my gender, but some other performance issue? Maybe I could volunteer to be on the planning committee if it is some company perk I’m just not aware of?”

      If you’ve only been there a short period of time, would they take your concerns seriously? It may be that you need to reach out to a more senior woman in the company, or a male executive who is sympathetic (if you know of one) and speak with them first. Or maybe discuss it with other women in general (quietly) and see if they are also concerned enough to address it with you. I don’t know if there is an anonymous reporting system in place that you could use instead, if that would be respected or is considered a joke.

      Because another problem is: if reverse sexism is happening, then the one who reports this is not going to be thanked, they are going to be targeted for spoiling the fun and it’s going to become “blah blah blah effin’ feminists! We can’t do anything any more because all feminists suck.” [insert every horrible thing you’ve ever heard about feminists] Which is still not right and it’s not a reason to not fight this if you feel strongly enough about it. It would just be better if you didn’t fight it all by yourself.

  12. Lurky McLurk*

    I might be slightly biased because I’m involved so do you think the message below could come across as rude (I didn’t write the email which is why I’m asking)? The only contact my organisation has with the organisation this was sent to is via email when they request additional information from us.

    “Hello

    Here are the requested details. Just to point out this isn’t really a 3rd chase since we replied to the original request on Stark & Rogers 5/3/15 and Fury, well, we did him back on 13/11/14.

    Unfortunately with the first 2 I can’t tell you anything more than we did then as they are AIM teapots. Now I realise why you keep sending AIM teapots to us, two teapot manufactures in the same building is bound to cause confusion but and this bears repeating with White chocolate teapots and Caramel teapots we really can’t do anything, literally nothing, so again please see below.

    Hope this helps

    Hydra Teapots
    (email signature) Please send all White chocolate teapot queries to Grant Ward and Caramel teapot queries to John Garrett at AIM teapots as they have taken over the production of these teapots. (end email signature)”

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      If I’m really reading into it, I think part of the comments like ‘literally nothing’ and ‘it bears repeating’ could come across as odd or rude. Anything that strays from ‘Sorry, this is not our department, please contact the appropriate departments’ I think has the potential to be taken the wrong way.

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        Yeah it was the bits like that I was concerned about, especially as this has been an ongoing issue for a while and AIM teapots are fed up they can’t get the info they need.

      2. Sadsack*

        Yeah, but to me that sounds like they have already expressed this several times and here they are having to do it again. I think they are putting it in the nicest way possible.

      3. jag*

        I don’t think “literally” is rude, but it’s an odd word to use in a a business communication. “Nothing” is “nothing” – there is no need to add “literally” to make it firmer.

        “Bears repeating” might seem rude, but it’s essential – it’s pointing out that the recipient ignored the previous notes, which is pertinent. So they get this back that them.

    2. Adam V*

      (I wouldn’t count on Grant Ward or John Garrett for anything, which is why they’re sending the queries to you. Am I right?) :)

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Yeah. I’m with you there. They’d be better off reaching out to Coulson or May, really, if they want something done now.

        1. LBK*

          Who even knows with Coulson though – he might secretly be building a teapot factory across the globe.

    3. Cristina in England*

      I don’t think it is rude, but if that is truly their first contact with you, it makes no sense, unless there was an initial query on your org’s end, but from what you’ve said it sounds like that is not the case?
      If your company and this one have never exchanged email before, then it’s spam, or it went to the wrong person by mistake.

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        We have exchanged emails before and had already said we couldn’t supply the info as it was nothing to do with us. I suspect they didn’t get a response from anyone else so tried us again.

    4. thisisit*

      it’s hard to know if it’s rude because it’s like walking into the middle of the conversation. depends on the tone of other emails? but more punctuation might be nicer. :)

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        The other emails go something like this:

        Them: Dear Collegue please can you fill in the information missing from the attached spreadsheet and return it within 3 days.

        Us: We have looked at these teapots jobs and they are not being manufatured by our company. Please contact AIM as they now make these teapots.

        Them: (several months later) Third Chase, we need this information ASAP, please supply it or we will be forced to escalate the issue.

        Us: Responded as above

        Most of the emails between us are short and are basically us emailing a spreadsheet back witht the missing info

        1. thisisit*

          it sounds to me like someone who is getting frustrated with being confused for someone else. fair enough. but it might have just been easier to say – “you keep getting us confused with AIM. we are not AIM. please contact AIM @ XXXX to resolve your issue”. end of story.

          1. Mints*

            Oooh this explanation makes so much more sense. I don’t think the original email is rude, but it’s confusing. And the “not third chase” bit is unnecessary to me, because since they’re asking the wrong people, why would you care how many times they ask? I wouldn’t nitpick that part of their emails. If anything: “For the third time, we are not AIM. Please contact AIM —–“

            1. thisisit*

              that could work, though i would be worried about getting sucked in deeper. if however, there could be any reason you could be considered partly responsible for the resolution of the issue, the phone call might not be a bad idea.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                I guess you kind of have to decide the phone call is to stop the activity for once and for all. Almost like a mini-intervention, where you are going to do what it takes to get your points across.

                This does not have to be horrible. What I have done in some instances is ask a series of questions that lead the person to conclude on their own, “whoops, I have the wrong person.”

    5. matcha123*

      It depends on what relationship the sender has with the recipients.

      If they know each other and get along well, it seems fine to me.
      On the other hand, “Here are the…” sounds abrupt and “Just to point out” also sounds kind of rude. Casual words like “well” or colloquialisms like “…can’t do anything, literally nothing” also sound rude or just snarky.

      Again, it all depends on the relationships between the two parties.

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        It’s basically nameless person one emailing nameless person two from generic email accounts so it’s not as though it’s two people who regularly exchange emails, the emails could be sent by a different person every day of the week.

        1. matcha123*

          If I were on the receiving end of such an email (the original one you posted), I’d feel turned off by the tone. And if the number of people who are also turned off is significant, it might be worth figuring out a way to convey that to those on the sending end.

          1. Lurky McLurk*

            Yeah the tone didn’t seem “formal” enough for the situation, if it was two people who knew each other well the tone wouldn’t feel as off as it does.
            And no ones said anything about it so I’ll probably write it off as one of those things.

    6. Kelly White*

      I don’t think its rude- it reads to me as though the wrong division/company keeps getting asked for info about the other division/company.
      I think it shows that they are trying to forward the info to the appropriate person, but the original requester should be requesting it from the correct person, and may not realize that they are not.

    7. Artemesia*

      I understand this as someone is repeatedly asking for information about something you don’t manufacture e.g. they have Apple computers and are emailing service at Hewlett Packard (and good luck to them).

      If this is so then all the verbage is unnecessary and confusing. Just say “We are getting repeated requests for information on the Mach 6 Carmel Teapot but since this is not our product but a product of Acme Teapots, we can do nothing for you. PLease direct your queries to Acme at XXX 434 5456.” Or whatever.

      Or did I miss the point?

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        Nope that’s the point it’s too waffle-y, twice as long as it needs to be and as LAI pointed out not that tactful.

    8. LAI*

      I wouldn’t call it rude necessarily, but it’s certainly less tactful than it could be. I think that a frustrated and annoyed tone is definitely coming through and I’m not sure if that’s what the writer intended. Also, I agree with other posters that it’s not very well written and could use some more punctuation.

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        That’s it, that what was bugging me, didn’t seem that tactful (and it’s badly written)

    9. Beezus*

      What’s your company’s relationship to AIM?

      If you’re getting negative feedback on this kind of response, I’d try either being more or less helpful, depending on your relationship with AIM Teapots. If you are Hydra Teapots, a Teapot Umbrella Corporation Company, and they are AIM Teapots, an Teapot Umbrella Corporation Company, I’d consider actually copying John Garrett on the email and asking him to respond. (I work for an umbrella corporation with multiple operating companies in the same industry – we get cross-inquiries sometimes, and we handle it with a more direct handoff like this.)

      If you are Hydra Teapots, former manufacturer of the AIM Teapot design, which has now either been spun off into its own separate company or sold to another company, I’d refrain from identifying a specific person and emphasize the break in relationship between your company and AIM Teapots. (“AIM Teapots is no longer affiliated with Hydra Teapots; we spun them off into an independent company in November, 2014. Please direct your inquiry to AIM Teapots, Inc. by emailing Requests-at-AIMTea.com.”) I would not provide a contact name – as a completely separate entity, you wouldn’t be expected to know who does what at another company; even if you knew who to reach out to when the split happened, that information may be old and it’s best to direct people to a more general mailbox or main switchboard number, if you give them contact information at all. I also would not reference that you happen to be in the same building.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s more frustration than rudeness, really.

      But the point is moot, because either way they need a response because they are just going to keep asking you for these inputs.

      I don’t believe that abruptness or rudeness gets me off the hook for answering someone who is asking me a question, in most cases. I only feel relieved of that obligation when a person’s behavior is, without a doubt, inappropriate. If I feel doubtful, I just continue on.

  13. Nervous Presenter*

    Has anyone dealt with serious, like almost crippling, presentation anxiety? I can’t seem to get past it, and it’s at the point that I think it’s beginning to impact my career. And now, I have an interview lined up for a job that seems like a great career move for me that involves a presentation, and I’m concerned I’m going to totally tank it.

    Training, practice, and experience aren’t helping enough. I end up completely sabotaging myself because a feedback loop starts in my brain that goes “they’re going to think this is stupid,” “you did it wrong,” “you’re going to forget to mention A, B, and C! You always forget something!”

    It’s not a stage fright issue per se: I used to perform in stage and dance productions when I was younger, and was fine. This seems to be exclusive to my speaking to my own work or ideas. I also suffer from a case of imposter syndrome, so I’m sure that’s feeding into this. I’ve tried approaching it as if it’s not my work, or logically thinking through the worst case scenario and realizing it wouldn’t really be the end of the world deal it seems like when I’m trying to speak, but nothing seems to translate to the actual presentation speech.

    Any advice? I’m struggling with ways to get over this since I feel like I’m trying all the usual suspects with little impact.

    1. Christy*

      It sounds to me like it’s a symptom of the underlying imposter syndrome rather than something on it’s own. I suspect that as you work on the imposter syndrome, the presentation anxiety will improve too.

      My anxiety therapist (clinical general anxiety) has helped me with my imposter syndrome. Not saying it’s the only solution, but it’s definitely a good solution.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t know how helpful this will be, as I’ve (luckily) never had any anxiety about presenting. But I do know that my presentations got better — more engaging, useful, and fun for me — when I started using stories to illustrate what I was doing.

    3. E.R*

      Have you considered therapy, like cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT)? It helped me immensely in overcoming anxieties related to work, namely the self-destructive self-talk loops that I learned to get rid of ,even though at the time I thought it would be impossible. I think this is something that’s really common, but people don’t talk about a lot.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I had this issue with writing in grad school. I’m typically an excellent writer, and my work at the time was also pretty high quality, but I developed exactly the kind of rumination loop that you describe: “You haven’t considered everything. They’re going to poke all these holes in this argument. You’re just embarrassing yourself…” etc.

      I went to therapy, I tried a whole bunch of other ways of getting my thoughts on paper (dictation, starting with a rougher outline, talking through the whole paper with my boyfriend), and none of it helped.

      The only thing that really helped me was just writing a really crappy paper, getting really critical feedback on it (and not even constructive, but exactly the stuff I’d been hearing in my head: “the prose really sucks and your argument is weak.”) It was embarrassing, but it didn’t kill me, and ever since then I’ve been able to replay that situation to myself to remind myself that the worst possible thing that can happen in this situation has happened, and I survived just fine.

      I know that’s probably the LEAST helpful thing to hear right now but honestly it really helped me. It doesn’t sound like your presentation skills are actually poor, moreso that you’re just anxious about using them, which is what reminded me of me. Good luck!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh, that is so true of this kind of fear–it grows in the dark, but when you drag it out into the light, it poofs into a pile of dust like a vampire in the sun. Sometimes I have to tell myself, “Just do it,” when I get anxious about something. I imagine the worst that could happen and then think, “Well, that’s not so bad–it’s better than [insert something spider, bear, or tornado-related].”

      2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        I was going to recommend something almost exactly like this! When I was younger, I was just aching, cripplingly shy. I decided one day that I was going to overcome it. I was at the kids’ version of a conference (a big competitive thing where students from across our 14 school district came together to compete; Future Problem Solving if any of ya’ll are familiar), and I did two things: first, I forced myself to go to each and every team at every table and introduced myself, chatted for a bit, etc. It was excruciating. Then I went to the middle of the room, and did a music-free interpretive dance that was *attempting* to be the YMCA, but probably resembled nothing of the sort. People just stared until I sat down.

        Both things were super hard and kind of embarrassing. But ever since then, public speaking has been totally NBD, and I was at least 50% less shy, and have been chipping that away more and more ever since, to the point that now I’m pretty sure I’ve transitioned from introvert to extrovert.

        It’s like, when you allow yourself to live through a sort of worst-case scenario, not only do you learn that you can come out the other side just fine, you tend to feel pretty positively about the actual experience, because even if it was awful, you *own* it, it’s yours, it’s something you made happen and you used it to affect the outcome you wanted. It’s pretty empowering!

      3. Nervous Presenter*

        Yes, this definitely sounds familiar. I actually went to business school so there were plenty of presentations, mostly to an audience who would do their best to poke holes in your argument (at least, this was the case in my program!)

        I actually think it may have helped me if I had totally failed at this exercise at some point, but I always made it through with reasonably convincing answers. The weird thing is, once I have to explain or defend something, I usually do better. It’s just the longer, planned part where I struggle.

      4. catsAreCool*

        One thing I’ve done when I’m writing something and feel stuck is to just write, even if what I’m writing seems stupid. Sometimes especially then. If I start with something that’s too blunt, I can fix it later.

    5. thisisit*

      YES. THIS IS ME. presentation anxiety, imposter syndrome, etc. you know what really helped? practice. i set up my web cam and just recorded myself talking/presenting/answering questions over and over and over again. and watched it over and over and over again.
      practiced with friends and let them ask questions. it all got me more comfortable with what i was saying, and feeling more natural.
      also having some good notes that i’ve practiced with so i don’t have to rely on them too much.

      also, beta blockers.

    6. the_scientist*

      Without delving to much into armchair diagnostics, I would recommend doing some reading on generalized anxiety disorders and perfectionism (the serious imposter syndrome is a red flag for perfectionism to me) and seeing if those symptoms apply anywhere else in your life. The negative feedback loop you are describing sounds a LOT like ruminating, which is a classic anxiety symptom. It also sounds like you’ve worked really hard to overcome this on your own, and are having little success, which must be really frustrating- and is possibly a sign that you need some assistance with it.

      Even if your anxiety doesn’t rise to a “diagnosable” level (i.e. generalized anxiety disorder), it can still make your life difficult! When it reached a point where my anxiety was making me miserable, I went to my primary care doctor and got a referral to a counselor- someone who has training or is familiar with cognitive behavioural therapy techniques is ideal. If you can’t access a counselor, does your employer have an EAP? I used a telephone counselling service through mine, and it was actually more effective than in-person counselling for me. The counselling wasn’t a long term thing, but gave me a few really helpful thought exercises to “retrain my brain” and to identify anxiety triggers and recognize the signs that I’m getting into one of those negative feedback loops. More immediately, you can find a lot of these CBT techniques online.

      Finally, regarding the perfectionism/imposter syndrome thing, I highly recommend the book “When Perfect Isn’t Good Enough”. Actually, I can’t recommend this book highly enough, it’s been so helpful and illuminating for me- it talks not just about perfectionism in the context of school/the workplace, but how it impacts your personal life and relationships as well.

      1. nona*

        +1

        If this isn’t anxiety disorder related, the same things that help people with anxiety disorders could still be useful to you. I’d look into these recommendations.

    7. nona*

      Yep, I’ve been there! I’m fine with presentations now. What helped me might be the usual suspects you’ve tried, but here it is:

      -Writing an outline or an actual script to practice.
      -Practicing at least once, earlier than the day before the presentation.
      -Going over it mentally in the place where I’ll give the presentation.
      -Knowing that a lot of people in the audience feel the same way that I do. They’re sympathetic.
      -Reading about research on how evident a speaker’s nervousness is. Turns out that the audience generally thinks everything’s cool. I’ll dig up a link to this when I get home tonight.
      -More than else, having to give a presentation every week. Exposure therapy?

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Aside from all of these (which are excellent suggestions IMO and sadly most presenters do not do) — you are there to make a presentation. So what if the audience thinks it’s stupid? Believe me when I say this, after being in the graphics end of this industry for 20 years, I bet you are not half as bad as you think you are. Because if you were, the powers that be would find a way to make you stop presenting and your career path would reflect that. No matter what happens, the presentation you give is one moment. Unless you get drunk and fall off the stage, few will remember a month from now exactly what you said or did beyond the overall impression of it. I have listened to, worked with, watched hundreds maybe thousands of presenters and only remember a few handfuls of them.

        But there is the other side of it: if it is well and truly stupid, can you change it? Can you suggest different language or better visuals or structuring it differently? If you’re doing all of this in a vacuum, get someone to help. Whether that’s hiring someone or someone in the organisation who can give you the feedback you need and work with you to improve the bits that don’t work. A fresh perspective on something can do wonders. When you work on things a lot, you get really attached to them and lose the ability to step back and see the overall picture.

    8. GOG11*

      I once read a quote or excerpt that an author said something to the effect of, if you want writers block (or to be crippled by anxiety about whether or not your work is good enough), try to write or create (i.e. draft) on expensive, official paper. Essentially, the set up implied where the work would end up and it brought up all the implications of failure for the artist. If you’re scribbling on napkins or on the back of receipts, there is so little pressure to be perfect that it can really help you focus on getting the content out rather than on fears about how the material will be received. Is there a way you could trick yourself into making it no big deal? Is there some sort of napkins and old receipts format that could apply to you?

      When I get anxious, sometimes I mentally follow the timeline. For example, if you do a presentation and your ideas are poorly received or you realize they’re terrible as you’re talking, what would be the consequence? And then what would happen after that (and so on and so forth)? This helps me because I am focusing on a sequence of events (which can be planned for and possibly overcome) rather than a vague, undefined and untackle-able feeling of dread.

      Focusing on events is also helpful because, even if those things do come to pass, you will still survive. How it can be helpful is captured by this quote, I think, “P.S. You’re not going to die. Here’s the white-hot truth: if you go bankrupt, you’ll still be okay. If you lose the gig, the lover, the house, you’ll still be okay. If you sing off-key, get beat by the competition, have your heart shattered, get fired…it’s not going to kill you. Ask anyone who’s been through it.” – Daneille LaPorte

      I hope you’re able to work through your anxiety. It’s a terrible feeling.

      1. catsAreCool*

        This may be why I find it easier to write when I’m using a paper notebook instead of using Word.

    9. LAI*

      I used to have terrible presentation anxiety when I was younger. In high school, I faked being sick to avoid doing a presentation (which didn’t work, I just had to do it when I came back). In college, I dropped a class once because it involved presentations. But in my first job, I had to do a lot of presentations and I eventually got used to it – it helped that I was presenting to smallish groups at first, and that I was presenting on topics that I felt very comfortable with. I didn’t get as nervous about not knowing an answer, or saying something stupid because I felt very confident about the material. I started to think of it more as a conversation that happened to be mostly one-sided, and not a presentation, and that helped a lot. Can you start by practicing outside of work with a topic that you know really well, like how to fry an egg?

      1. Arjay*

        It sounds counter-intuitive, but the thing that helped me the most was having my presentation videotaped and then watching it back during a critique. While I did draw some areas for improvement from the critique, it was overwhelmingly positive to see that I didn’t actually look or sound like the crazy, nervous wreck I felt like.

    10. TeapotCounsel*

      Nervous Presenter,
      You asked for advice, and I have it. And, unlike some of my other posts, I promise promise that I am exactly right in this advice.
      JOIN TOASTMASTERS
      It is a public speaking group for people exactly like you. It is made up of various folks who are all very supportive and helpful. My attendance at Toastmasters transformed me into a very comfortable speaker, such that I became a jury trial lawyer.
      So I’ll say it again:
      JOIN TOASTMASTERS
      Google it and find a nearby meeting.

      1. catsAreCool*

        I agree. Toastmasters has been really helpful for me. Here’s the web site http://www.toastmasters.org/ It has a “Find a Club” button in the upper left corner.

        Toastmasters is a great place to try things. It’s encouraging and supportive. People understand your fears because they’ve had the same fears.

    11. Anx*

      I’m taking a public speaking class this semester.

      I’ve come to realize that for me, I am totally fine doing a freeform presentation where time isn’t really a huge factor. But trying to get the timing down and staying organized? That’s difficult unless I memorize. And I’m trying to break the pattern.

      I realized that the reason I’m doing so badly in my class is that when I go to speak, I’m trying so hard to make sure it looks like I prepared (which I did, but not enough*) than to just present my speech.

      *I am a recovering procrastinator/perfectionist and I had never finished a paper more than 10 minutes before it was due/I had to leave my computer for the day until this year. I am trying so hard to prepare more for this class, but it means committing not only to a topic earlier, but practicing what you’ve come up with without changing it.

    12. Nervous Presenter*

      Wow, thanks for all of the suggestions! These are really helpful.

      I actually have considered seeking some kind of counseling or therapy around this and the imposter syndrome but (a) frankly wasn’t sure if it would even make sense, and (b) had no idea what type of help to even look into, so this definitely gives me somewhere to start if I end up going that route.

      I’ve tried to unpack this over time to try to figure out what was going on and there’s definitely a lot of imposter syndrome and perfectionism happening there, which I think is the root of the issue. I actually am an extrovert and am comfortable being up in front of people. It’s more the fear of looking like an idiot when I’m presenting work I’ve done or screwing up and forgetting something that I need to mention.

      I really appreciate all the responses. If nothing else, hearing about your experiences has made me feel like I may eventually be able to overcome this!

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Another suggestion I haven’t seen mentioned yet, that I found very helpful for my own presentations: trying to divert the soundtrack in your mind off the “me me me them them them me them me them” and onto “the material the material the material”.

        If was giving a presentation and my brain tried to go off on things like “oh I’m going to forget x”, or “what are they going to think of me?”, anything to do with me, or the listeners, that would just be immensely unhelpful – that way for me lies being flustered, nervous, and so caught up in their perceptions that the quality of what I was saying would deteriorate.

        Instead, I’d focus very firmly on the material, the substance of what I was trying to say. The sorts of presentations I’d make would be focused on helping the audience understand the concepts I was trying to convey (I was usually giving technical presentations), or helping the audience to absorb the ideas/information that I was trying to convey to them. So the soundtrack becomes all about the “understand understand material material knowledge knowledge”.

        For me, the imposter syndrome stuff would get repelled pretty severely by me reminding myself that never mind what they were thinking, because I knew the material and they didn’t. Or I understood it, and they didn’t (yet), and the whole point of me giving the talk was because I had useful stuff to impart. You’re the expert on what it is that you are trying to convey; the audience isn’t (even if they are knowledgable, they still don’t know your take on it, until you tell them).

    13. Jazzy Red*

      Since you have performed on stage in the past, consider the presentation as a show that you are in. Not you, exactly, but you acting as your favorite performer or character. I used to pretend to be my Aunt Caroline, who was much more experienced, confident, and outgoing than I could ever be. She had a very professional and friendly demeanor, and I admired her so much! I imagined myself wearing her clothes, her hairstyle, her makeup, etc. – I “put her on” and did what I had to do. It really helped me get through many anxiety producing situations.

      Another thing to try is to speak like actor Michael Caine – only say three/words at a time/or at the most/four. Taking little breaths between short phrases was also very helpful for calming my nerves.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      You can also try some homeopathic remedies. Check at an organic food store. Rescue Remedy is fairly tame stuff, you could start with that. There are other natural things that help to reduce stress levels also. No magic bullets, you are still you and you will not be able to sleep through a presentation, so nothing is totally numbing. But you might find something that takes the edge off so you can begin to function.

    15. Mz. Puppie*

      I’m surprised no one has suggested a beta blocker before the presentation. It’s a well-known quick fix for public speaking nerves. Many speakers rely on it. (Failing that, maybe 1/2 Xanax beforehand, but the beta blocker is really better)

  14. accounting princess*

    I interviewed at a job on March 30th. I thought it went well, but they said they weren’t expecting to make a decision for at least a couple of weeks. I emailed my interviewer the weeek of the interview to follow-up and she never responded. Should I follow up again? I’ve already moved on, but I really liked the company/position.

    1. Michele*

      Do not contact them again. Do not stalk your interviewer. Depending on the type of position, they may not have made a decision yet. Also, if they are on the fence, and you are a pest, it will not help your case.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think most places respond to followup emails; it’s not like they’re conversations. Also, it’s not even past the timeline they told you–cut these poor folks some slack! Stick with that “moving on” idea and you’ll be all the more delighted if they do extend an offer.

    3. thisisit*

      i always either double the time frame i’m given, or just tack on two weeks. so i would wait until the end of the month at least before saying or doing anything.

    4. steve g*

      I feel for you. I apparently didn’t make it past the long phone screen for a specialist job in my small niche industry. It went great, the recruiter was having fun, I have to be one of the few people with experience because it is a niche, and I was totally positive, not saying anything remotely negative. The salary also lined up with my expectations. I 100 percent expected a call back, despite the one caveat that they were willing to hire someone with less experience (but I thought, why hire and train if you don’t have to). Based on the info I have, I think they made a mistake. Hopefully there is something big we are missing about these jobs.

  15. Help with hiring!!*

    I work at a small company that struggles a lot with hiring. Any input on how to attract candidates who might just want an office job but not necessarily a career? Especially since the economy is picking up? Thanks!

    1. AMD*

      When you say “don’t want a career,” do you mean that your company does not have a lot of room for growth? That you are looking for people who would be content in their original position long-term?

    2. some1*

      Pay well and offer great benefits. If you can’t, offer perks (flex time, summer hours, casual dress code).

      1. Laurel Gray*

        Some1 is on the right track. If you want someone who isn’t looking to move up but you know needs a job and will commit to it, make sure the pay is reasonable and if you can offer health insurance, please do. Definitely look into perks like a reimbursed train pass and the suggestions above.

    3. Cristina in England*

      I am assuming what AMD said about limited growth opportunities. I would make that clear in the interview, and also make sure that you reward excellent performance in other ways, if promotion is not a thing. Also, all other advice from Alison about attracting good candidates also applies, such as setting clear goals, giving regular and clear feedback, having good benefits and health care, etc. There are LOTS of people who don’t want a “career”, but who want to do excellent work in a job. Good luck!

    4. louise*

      I would be upfront during the phone screen/interview process that these are not really roles with room for growth. A lot of people actually don’t mind that.

    5. Julie*

      If it’s a job without a lot of growth potential, I’ve found that people who are looking for a “second career” to be good fits. I come from government so that often means teachers who are done with the classroom for retirement purposes but still need income before they can draw retirement, SAHMs whose kids are old enough, men and women who were laid off with 5-15 years left in their system. Targeting them often means guaranteeing a job without increasing responsibilities or earnings so if you’re looking for a fast-paced person on their toes you may have trouble with that.

      I’ve found that you need to use coded language in the job description (relaxed environment, long-term position) but the phone screening is a must here. Be clear who this position reports to, the frequent reasons people leave (they want to move up or are looking to retire), and that this job will have xx duties and you don’t expect those to change or lead to the kind of professional development that will prepare them for other positions in the office. Ask about their career goals. Like you said, the economy is improving so you should have more choices. If salary is limited, make sure you can offer something like flex time as a perk to reward someone whose career won’t improve year-to-year.

      I’d also urge you to consider part-time employees. The office next to mine has two part-timers that split the tasks for the day so each draws a regular income but neither would define their job as a career. One’s a mom who needs to be home in time for kid pickup and the other is on a lot of boards and wanted more human interaction than her regular scene. Both are great at what they do, overlap for about 30 minutes with the other to connect on tasks and deadlines, and have been doing it for over 3 years for the one and close to 7 for the other.

      1. Cristina in England*

        Yes, this! I wanted to find a way to say “people who don’t define themselves by their job but still work hard and do a good job” but couldn’t. Your first paragraph is spot on.

      2. Help with hiring!!*

        It’s interesting because we have some of these benefits (flexible schedules). We are starting to consider part time and have discussed what our minimum hour requirement would be.

    6. Anx*

      What do you mean by ‘not want a career’?

      Do you mean that you aren’t looking for someone long term? That you expect them to move on quickly? That you won’t offer full-time hours or benefits?

      1. Help with hiring!!*

        We have about 25 employees so there’s a lot to do and you can get responsibilities that are beyond your job description, but we can’t get ahead in hiring (people keep leaving due to limited growth potential but at the same time our business is expanding and we have more work than we can handle.) We are trying to hire more people who want to punch in and punch out without necessarily looking for growth.

  16. ACA*

    It’s been a weird but good week regarding job stuff.

    Good/weird thing 1: I had my performance evaluation meeting yesterday, which in the past have involved my boss telling me everything I’d been doing wrong over the course of the year and being angry that I’d kept making the same mistake for eight months despite him never telling me I was doing it wrong. This year, he thanked me for supporting him and the division over the last year, told me to keep up the good work, and he’ll be increasing my responsibilities in the areas I suggested in my self-evaluation. I’m still in shock.

    Good/weird thing 2: Back in late February, a friend of mine emailed me to let me know that a job in her office would be opening up, and to send her my resume if I was interested. I was, I sent it; she had a followup question a few weeks later about something that was actually covered on my resume, but otherwise I heard nothing.

    And then Monday, I get an email from HR at her company asking if I have time to talk on the phone to touch base about the position. At this point, I know nothing about the job except for where it is and that it’s vaguely within my skill set, so I’m assuming this is purely an informational call. I let him know my (limited) availability; he gets back to me on Tuesday day asking if I’m free that afternoon or first thing the next morning. This is when I realize it’s a phone interview…for a job I haven’t applied for yet. The next morning wouldn’t have been possible, so I made up an excuse at work and left an hour early so I could get home in time for the call..

    Considering I didn’t even see the job description until after we spoke, it seemed like it went really well! He wanted to make sure he spoke with me before he met with the VP of the division on Wednesday – so that he could tell the VP about our conversation when he presented my resume – and told me he’d follow up within a few days.

    The job was finally posted yesterday; I’ll be applying today. We’ll see how this goes.

  17. Michele*

    We have a round of interviews coming up that I will be leading. After reading today’s fight or steal letter, I am going to make sure that no one is asking anything insane. Before the round starts, we have will have a meeting to discuss what we are looking for and I will bring it up there. Also, our interviews last all day, and the candidate usually meets with about a dozen people. At the end of the day, I always ask if they had any questions or if there is anything they would like to clarify. I am also going to ask if there is anything like this going on. Years ago, we had a problem with an interviewer being a rude jerk and we put a stop to it. I would hate to have a good candidate chased off by someone asking what kind of tree they are.

    1. JMW*

      We sometimes use variations of the tree question (animal, book) toward the end of an interview. It asks candidates to identify their most defining characteristics. Obviously, they have to tell you why they chose the tree (or whatever). But if I choose bamboo over oak or pine, because it’s flexible, self-replenishing, versatile, ripe for development for new uses, economical, and persistent, then you have learned a lot about me from this simple exercise. One might choose other trees for their seasonality, fruit-bearing, ability to grow in a wide variety of environments, the strength of the wood, the wide canopy, the deep roots, the straightness of the trunk, the height to which it grows…

      These sorts of questions also ask the candidate to think comparatively (higher level thinking and related to the ability to connect to ideas outside oneself) and to have a little bit of humor.

      1. NJ anon*

        No offense, but I hate these questions. I can’t even come up with a serious answer. Fortunately, I haven’t run into them in my most recent job search.

        1. Arjay*

          They also presuppose a breadth of knowledge about trees that I lack. So in addition to researching the industry and company, I guess I need a botany course. (If I had to answer this right now, I’d sound like the Hulk. “Oak tree. Big. Strong. SMASH!”)

          1. periwinkle*

            I’d hire you in an instant based on that response.

            Which is why I’m not a hiring manager.

          2. Sara*

            I almost told an interviewer that I’m like a pine tree, because like a pine tree, I smell good. (I smell fine, but the real reason was that I suddenly could not think of any other types of trees. My boyfriend and I now share a running list of “Types of Trees” as a joke.)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I think that the tree question is too subjective. For example: I heard of an Eastern saying that basically concludes a willow is better than an oak because it bends in a storm where as the oak breaks. Personally, I never would liken myself to a willow, they break, they are messy, etc. The tree question presumes you know something about trees, but a lot of people have no interest in trees.

      2. M*

        omg. Please don’t ask that. It’s a horrible question. I wouldn’t even know how to answer it with hours of thought, let alone on the spot.

      3. Sara*

        I agree that these types of questions are ridiculous. If you want to know about my personality or working style, ask about that. I have literally never paused to consider what animal, vegetable, or mineral best embodies my personal traits.

      4. Treehugger*

        I’ve always wanted to be asked what tree I would be. Never have though. I’d be an aspen. They’re clonal so when you see a grove of aspens they are all the same organism so really a grove is just one tree. The oldest (clonal) organism is an aspen named Pando that’s estimated to be 80,000 years old and it’s also the most massive organism on earth. I also love how they have flattened petioles so they flicker in the wind. I’ve always thought they embodied the wind beautifully.

      1. Sara*

        I know a guy who does, along with at least 20 other completely ridiculous questions. If you’re looking for a job near Boston I’ll point you towards him. You will not face any competition from me, at least!

  18. Hannah*

    Does anyone have any experience with Successfactors? My company is going to start using this for performance reviews and I did not find much on the web about it.

    1. MaryinTexas*

      We just started with Success Factors. Their performance review platform (Navigator) is very cumbersome and not very intuitive. They have something called “Keys to Success” which is the “how” part of your perfromance (how you met your goals. They focus on “what”…i.e. the goals, but more focus is on “how” you achieved your goals. The business has really complained about this, b/c managers are spending way to much time on this than every before. I hope your experience is better. Good luck!!

      1. Carrington Barr*

        Had to use Success Factors at Old Job. Mary is correct — far too much time & effort for what you get out of it.

    2. EA Anon*

      We have it at our firm, mostly everyone hates it. It is not user friendly, people have complained so much that we now going to another program.

    3. Ebonarc*

      My company used Success Factors for years…and this year switched to what was basically excel spreadsheet based forms instead. There was much rejoicing. Success Factors, at least our implementation of it, was clunky and counterintuitive.

    4. I make the computers go*

      My company uses it. I really hate the interface. Multiple people in our IT department have had problems navigating it. I had to get help entering my goals this year because the link to enter them was hidden in some text.

      It requires you to enter comments in every comment box, but doesn’t tell you that until the very end so you have to navigate back to fill them in.

      Making me most mad is the fact that it won’t calculate your goal percentages for you. Each goal you enter has to have a % of total score, but this is just a box you enter a value in. If they don’t equal exactly 100% it tells you at the end and you have to go back and figure out how to weight each of your goals.

      The one saving grace is the writing assistant. Each time you do a review you rate yourself in several areas. You have to leave comments on each rating and the writing assistant has lots of suggestions for nice phrasing about that area.

    5. SC in SC*

      We also use it and it certainly is not one of our favorite pieces of software. I agree with most that it isn’t ituitive but it works well enough once you understand the logic. The main complaint we have is that everything is treated like a separate document and your review doesn’t build throughout the year. Your goals are one document. You create a copy of your goals as a new document for your mid-year. Your boss can read your mid-year comments but can’t see them while he adds his mid-year comments since they haven’t been combined yet. Process repeats for year end only now you don’t see the mid-year comments. You can always open the other documents but it means you have to export them and switch back and forth.

      Another issue we’ve had is that the system doesn’t propagate changes very well. Year end goals are copied from your original goals so any adjustments made during the year have to be made again. The whole thing is just very clunky.

  19. Amber Rose*

    A customer complained about my husband to his boss, saying he was “cold”. He works at our version of a DMV. They’re all cold, because their customers are all hateful violent jerks.

    Now he might lose his job.

    I’m not asking a question but I’m really pissed off at his boss for not having his back and I needed to rant.

    1. Anie*

      That’s such a minor thing! I could see if someone is rude with word choices and it’s a customer facing job–but slightly standoffish? It frustrates me when people act like those who deal with customers must be super over-the-top peppy.

      When I was 17 and working the register at a gas station, I had this pop up once. I’d tried to make eye contact with a customer and offer her a half smile as I rang her up but she wasn’t paying attention to me. When she finally decided to acknowledge me, she said she was going to report me as unfriendly.

      I stared her down and said that I was working on my day off as a favor, had just come from a funeral, and the world doesn’t revolve around her. She left with her tail, rightfully, between her legs.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I try to remember if I run into a brusque cashier or waiter that (a) it’s exhausting being chipper to customers all day and (b) they could have had a scenario like Anie’s. I’ve definitely had days at jobs where I don’t feel great and no one threatens my job and stiffs me on a tip, so I shouldn’t do so to the service worker.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Thing is, my husband can come across a little rude, but if nobody tells him what he’s doing wrong, how is he supposed to get better? Firing someone with even a cursory attempt at coaching is such bullshit.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Unless he’s in sales or hospitality, it should be much more important as to whether he actually helps people accomplish what they need to accomplish than if they think he’s “nice”. I’ve run into some very brusque yet helpful people, and I would much rather have them help me than someone who is incredibly sweet but useless.

          And I totally agree about being given a chance to work on it, too, Amber Rose.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Yeah. But he doesn’t know why. I’m no help, I don’t think he’s rude at all. Or rather, he used to be when I met him 10 years ago and he seems totally fine to me now. I’ve been coaching him on his worst offenses and he hasn’t had a problem in years that I know of.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      It’s minor, like Anie said, and also vague. What does “cold” mean? Did the complainer have any specific examples? That must be such a hard job. People in those positions don’t make the rules, but they have to enforce them, which sucks. But people are so rude and hateful. I’ve found that if I take a moment and say hello and ask how they’re doing, I get much better service. I also do it because those really are awful jobs, and I greatly respect anyone who can do them without becoming homicidal. I wouldn’t be able to do it.

      1. Jennifer*

        I dunno…I kind of wish people wouldn’t ask me how I am when I am serving the public because I have to smile and say “Wonderful!” regardless of how I actually am. It doesn’t really make me happier to serve because I have to be faking happiness even more if you ask.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          +1.

          Yesterday I had someone make a big deal of comforting me because I couldn’t answer his question. Um…. my not being able to answer your question doesn’t mean I have impostor syndrome, it means you need to ask the person on the other desk over there. I don’t need that much attention to my feelings, thanks.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Except he very well might, since his boss told him she’s going to advise the owner to get rid of him.

        1. misspiggy*

          Awful. Sounds like the problem is not so much the rudeness complaint but the boss, who seems to have been waiting for an excuse to get rid of your husband.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Honestly, if I were at the DMV, I’d rather have a competent and efficient worker than a friendly, chatty one.

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        Seriously. If you’re an employer forcing your support workers to be “warm” and “friendly”, you’re not actually improving the CS experience for introverts like me.

        (It’s worse because I can’t think of a way to -say-, “please, I don’t feel like chatting right now, can you just drive the cab/finish the haircut” without sounding like an elitist snob.)

        1. Tris Prior*

          oh god, yes. I HATE getting chatted up by cashiers. When I was a cashier, I HATED having to be chatty and perky because, if I were my customer, I would’ve been thinking, “how soon can I leave this store without seeming rude?”

          1. april ludgate*

            There’s one particularly chatty bagger who I purposely avoid at the grocery store now because every Sunday morning he’d literally say the same things as small talk and one of them was, “Now that you’re done grocery shopping are you going to do something fun for the rest of the day?” No, I wasn’t doing anything fun, I was going home to do laundry. And the reason I get up early to shop on Sundays is so I can avoid dealing with people.

            1. Tris Prior*

              Is it Trader Joe’s? There’s one at my store who always does this and it drives me insane.

              1. april ludgate*

                No, it’s a Hannaford’s. Although TJs employees always are super talkative for some reason.

        2. So Very Anonymous*

          At my grocery store they make a big deal of asking if you want help getting your groceries to the car. I’m extroverted but my public-facing job wears me out, and the last thing I want is to have to make small talk while someone else pushes my grocery cart. I just hate the dance around having to say no. I always wonder if the baggers want to do this to get a few minutes out of the building.

    4. Allison*

      That sounds so petty! I’ve dealt with plenty of “cold” customer-facing people before, but I’ve only ever reported people for being really terrible, like actually swearing at me.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve been a customer at our DMV many times, and I’ve not seen anyone who was a hateful violent jerk, neither customers or workers. Our DMV has a few impatient people, but generally is filled with quiet people waiting their turn, and served by patient and pleasant workers trying to get to them at a reasonable speed.

      What is it about his business that only attracts that kind of customers? Especially something like a DMV, where all sorts of people have to go to? If there is that adversarial of a relationship with the customers, then perhaps the boss has a point? (Not that I want your husband to be fired!)

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I was wondering about that. Or is there something in the process that frazzles their nerves before they talk to the reps? (I think problematic automated phone systems kick a lot of people up to rage before they get to CSRs, for instance.)

        1. AVP*

          ooof, I do this sometimes and its so hard to train myself out of it. My least favorite are those systems where you have to input all of your key info into the system a few times, repeating a bunch of times when the automated answerer doesn’t understand, and then ten minutes later you finally get on the phone with a live person and they haven’t gotten any of that info. So you have to start over. I know it’s not the live person’s fault but I’m so frustrated by the whole thing that it’s hard to be fresh and not hold it against them.

          I would start with not assuming that all customers are violent, hateful, or jerks, and then see where that gets everyone.

          1. nonegiven*

            I hate those things. It doesn’t understand me saying ‘representative,’ which is what it told me to say, so many times I start swearing at it. That usually gets me a representative.

      2. Amber Rose*

        It’s government policy. People have a problem with it, they want the staff to tell them it’s fine not to follow it, and it isn’t. Or they don’t like the hours. They’ve had to call the cops a few times on people slamming into the locked doors or threatening staff members for telling them things they don’t wanna hear.

        1. Colette*

          That’s a couple of times, though, not all. If your husband is going into interactions with customers expecting them to be hateful, violent jerks, that’s one thing he can change that will affect how he comes across.

            1. Ruby*

              Your initial comment said this was all his customers. Now it’s a couple per week? That’s a pretty big difference! I think Colette is right. If he has the same mindset that you had in your first comment, that’s going to come across very badly.

              1. fposte*

                I think this is mostly a loyal wife posting in indignation, though; I don’t think that’s the same thing as the actual job poster.

            2. Lionness*

              I am deeply curious as to what country/region you are in where your version of a DMV has such a violent clientele. That seems…insane. I don’t doubt you, I just want to be sure to avoid this area.

      3. Jennifer*

        If you are in a business where people generally don’t have to go to you unless there is a problem, you will end up with a shitty clientele.

      4. peanut butter kisses*

        I have never had a problem at the DMV with the employees. I tend to take bad pictures and each time, they smile and ask if I want another one. That is so very much appreciated by me. The DMV in Texas rocks!

        1. Lionness*

          I only had one issue. I had the manager yell – and I mean really YELL – at me when I asked if there were any alternative documents I could provide to register my vehicle (as the state I moved from did not provide the document the new state required). I asked just once, perfectly calmly and she freaked the heck out.

          But that was just one person, one time. And she is kind of infamous in our city as someone no one wants to deal with.

      5. Not So NewReader*

        I’m with you, ThurdaysGeek, I think there is something else going on here.
        There are two DMVs in my area. In one of them everyone is very nice, they chat, they help you and it’s pleasant. People go there rather than mail in their paperwork because it is pleasant. There is another DMV that the boss tells her help to be rude to the people. She tells them “it keeps the lines” moving. I don’t know if the lines move any faster but the whole time you are standing in line all you hear is people arguing with the employees. It is a very unpleasant place to be and the workers are very unhappy.

        OP, how does the boss treat “customers”? The boss sounds like an impatient person with no sense of how to work with people. If your husband’s “problem” was that serious, why hasn’t she been coaching him through it? This is not the type of thing that should fall down from the sky. people should be given a chance to remedy.

    6. Dynamic Beige*

      Wait, what? There are people who work at vehicles licencing that are as warm, friendly and accommodating as the best waiter at your favourite restaurant? Or as complimentary as the person who gives you facials (seriously, do those people attend some How to Suck Up Without Being Obvious 101 style course?)

      I think the only thing he could do is speak to whomever his boss might listen to and request feedback on what he might do to improve or otherwise remedy the situation. Maybe there is some sort of procedure he is supposed to follow, or a training course? If not, is this one of those situations where this complaint is just the last straw for this manager? She may just not like him for whatever reasons and has been looking for a reason to dump him for a while now. For all you know, he could remind her of her first ex-husband or her father or something. We’ve all read the letters where it’s “So-and-so is coming in late every day. How do I tell them to not do that? — Oh, actually, there are other performance issues about this person I don’t like so I’m fixated on how late they are in the mornings” all this “cold” stuff might just be masking the real issue. Even if that real issue is the manager doesn’t like working there, so is taking it out on everyone.

    7. Jennifer*

      You have my sympathies. This kind of thing is why I am being over the top cheerful at work. I may be “fake” but at least I’m obviously trying to be happy. My neutral self is “rude and mean” according to the public because I do not naturally bubble over.

  20. ZSD*

    I had a Skype interview Wednesday. Thank you, Alison and AAM community, for all the Skype interview advice you’ve given! I had practiced looking into the camera instead of at my interviewers, tried out various lighting configurations, etc.
    Also, when asked a question about what I’d do if I were supervising an intern who wasn’t getting her work done, I pretty much said, “Well, I’d [insert AAM philosophy here].”
    My interviewer laughed and said, “That sounds great! I think I’ll delegate that task to you!”
    I took that as a good sign.
    (Of course, now I’m trying to read the tea leaves of the follow-up emails…)

  21. bassclefchick*

    Just a few updates today. A few weeks ago I posted that I found my “dream” job at a local performing arts center. Unfortunately, I didn’t even get an interview. That’s OK, it was a bit of a stretch for me and I didn’t meet all the requirements. I wasn’t really expecting an interview.

    However, the most disappointing thing that happened was at my current assignment. I’m currently a temp at a Fortune 500. I’ve been here as a temp for just over a year. There was a really good permanent opportunity and I applied for it. I noticed that they pulled the posting fairly quickly. But then about a week after that, they reposted it. So, I contacted the hiring manager and asked about it. He said to contact the in house recruiter. I did that. Not 5 minutes after finishing the email exchange with the recruiter, I received the reject notice stating I wouldn’t even be getting an interview. That was a harsh blow to absorb!
    BUT – even worse? Last week my manager pulled my team into a conference room and announced one of our team had accepted the position I applied for! This company is really big on promoting from within, which is great if you’re already in, but rather difficult if you’re trying to GET in. So not only did I NOT get hired on permanently, I have to smile for my teammate who DID get the job. After I was repeatedly told by the hiring manager that he wasn’t expecting any internal candidates!
    And now, a week later, I’m sitting with absolutely nothing to do because they are massively changing my job and moving from a paper system to electronic. And my manager didn’t even offer to train me on the departing teammate’s job – she’s supposedly keeping me in my current role and bringing in another temp to learn the other job. Because they’re on a hiring freeze again so she can’t hire someone to replace teammate.
    I really have to find something permanent. I have the distinct feeling I’m going to be told soon that my assignment will be ending.
    Thanks for the enouragement everyone! Time to push out more applications!

    1. BritCred*

      Wait, they are on a hiring freeze and had previously said that they didn’t expect internal candidates for the role your coworker got…?

      1. bassclefchick*

        They had a BRIEF window of being able to hire…then they announced a giant merger so back to the hiring freeze. Since this position was posted during the hiring period, they could go ahead with it.

        1. bassclefchick*

          And yes, I was told at least twice by the hiring manager that he really didn’t expect any internal candidates to want the position. The position was posted before the merger was announced, so none of the permanent employees were in “OMG it’s a merger, we’re all losing our jobs” mode just yet.

    2. Colette*

      Sometimes “hiring freeze” may actually mean that they’re cutting some groups – so it’s possible your coworker got the new job because her existing job no longer exists. In other words, they prioritized taking care of existing employees over hiring someone new.

  22. Knitting Fog*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to efficiently schedule a bunch of people with shifting, variable, and frequently unknown availability?

    I was asked a couple of months ago to take over some training as part of my duties at work. I don’t mind doing the actual training, but I don’t have a car and it’s a two-and-a-half hour, five-bus trip to the training office, and the same back again. Each training session runs for about four hours, so after taxes and paying transit fares in three different cities, I end up netting around $20 for nine hours of work and travel. Given that, I’d really like to limit the number of training sessions I have to hold.

    Theoretically, I should be able to do this because I’m the one who sets up the training schedule–I’m given a list of the people who need trained, and then it’s my responsibility to schedule the appropriate training sessions. My problem is that I’m having trouble getting more than two or three people in at once.

    It’s a 24/7 industry, there aren’t any standard shifts at our company, and many members of our staff have second jobs, so that makes it difficult to find a time when multiple people are free. On top of that, the work schedules usually aren’t finished until the start of the week to which they apply, and even then they change so much over the course of the week that they’re pretty much useless–I’ve had multiple people cancel training because their work schedule changed after we set a training date.

    I suggested that perhaps the operations managers could schedule training when they schedule people for work, but that suggestion was met with dead silence. The managers haven’t even told the staff they need training–I have to explain it when I call them–so it’s obviously not a priority for them. (We could lose a major client if we don’t get our people trained, so it is important.)

    So…any thoughts on how to get this done in as few sessions as possible? Or do I just need to suck it up and train them two at a time?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Does it need to be in person training? Could you develop training packs for people to work on themselves and take any requests for assistance by email or use video conferencing? (Google hangouts are very good for that sort of thing)

      1. Knitting Fog*

        Oh, how I wish I could do that! But no. I can’t change the format of the training – we’re a tiny, tiny vendor for a very large client, and they’re not going to change their standard training just for us. Plus some of it is legally-mandated, so I’m not sure they could change the format even if they were willing to.

    2. Kat*

      Offer two times/dates. Have the main office tell them it is mandatory and let them know they must have this training to continue working there.

      At some point, the employees need to work with your schedule, even if they have another job. They may complain and whine, but hold to it.

      1. Knitting Fog*

        The trick is getting the main office on board with that! But thank you! I may try suggesting that to them and seeing if I can get any traction. It would simplify things considerably.

    3. LCL*

      It is time for a meeting between you, the operations managers, and a representative from whatever management is requiring the training. At the meeting, you should have copies of last month’s schedules, and the current schedule. Explain to all involved how your company’s schedule works, and show how hard it is to get people in for training. Then throw it at them, and ask for help in solving this.

      Why does the training have to be done at a remote location? Would it be possible to do some training on site? And why do people cancel training to work? Aren’t they getting paid their regular hourly wage for training?
      Are the operations managers making them cancel their training? With shiftworkers, there is no way around holding multiple training sessions. But you could really minimize that if your company had a more coherent schedule. But again, it sounds like you don’t have any authority over the schedule.

      I schedule for a group of shiftworkers. Our schedules are posted for 4 weeks at a time, and most people’s shifts don’t vary. I am also the person who schedules training. And I am one of the persons who is the equivalent of an operations manager. It is definitely easier to schedule training if you control the schedule.

      1. Knitting Fog*

        Thank you! I think that you’re right–a face-to-face meeting is what’s needed. The company is not going to approve getting the client involved in this, but maybe I can wrangle a meeting with the schedulers and try to sort things out that way.

        As for location–most of our work gets done at client sites, and the handful of admin people, including me, do most of our work from home. The training office isn’t exactly remote–it’s about a fifteen-minute drive from our main client site. But I don’t have a car, and the oddities of bus routes mean it takes sixty to ninety minutes to get there by bus from the client site, or two to two-and-half hours directly from my house. (The client site is an hour away from me, so it works out to about the same time either way.)

        What happens with cancellations is that when our people are asked to work, they assume their training has been rescheduled because they assume a degree of organization and coordination that does not exist. I do keep the operations managers up to date on who is scheduled for training when, but I don’t think they pay much attention to that.

        So yes! I think I need to do this face-to-face, if I can somehow drag them all in. I’m the most junior person there, so it might be a challenge, but I’ll try.

        1. Celeste*

          Can they lease or rent you a car? It seems like it can only help for this venture. Also maybe you can stay overnight to give a 2-day window for trainings. It seems like that might also help with shift work, if you are willing to be on a different shift for it.

          I think your small company needs to decide if it wants to be a little more big-time. At least with this client, you’ve gone as far as you can go on a shoestring.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            That is pretty wild that it takes so much money to go to training. I wonder how many other people are feeling the pinch. I hope extra money is tacked on to this client’s contract because of the expense involved in getting people training.
            But my main though is, OP can you schedule yourself to go with someone who has a car and would not mind giving you a lift? I have a car and I usually look around to see if someone needs a ride because there is usually someone who does. It’s not a big deal- I am going that way anyway! ;)

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Why not take a taxi from your office and expense it, if it’s only 15 minutes away? If I were your manager, I would be shocked to find out you weren’t doing that already!

          1. Knitting Fog*

            In the beginning, I used to try to organize shuttle runs from the main site using one of the company cars for employees undergoing training who didn’t have cars. I stopped after I was lectured by management for wasting gas. I think it was a ridiculous complaint, but given that history, I’m hesitant to ask for money for a taxi just for me – I fear I’d come across as demanding special privileges.

    4. HumbleOnion*

      Can you company pay to rent you a car for the day? Or at least pay for your transportation? If you’re having to go to another site, they should be covering it.

      1. Knitting Fog*

        The training office is pretty much their only office–it gets called the training office because that’s the main thing we use it for (apart from storage), but they don’t have any other space. The admin staff all work from home, and everyone else works at client sites. So I’m not really going to another site, I’m just going into the office. (They didn’t have this office when I took the job–I was supposed to be working entirely from home–so I didn’t know that it would be an issue.)

        But it would make it more palatable if I weren’t spending so much (and so much time) on transportation!

        1. misspiggy*

          They should still pay your transportation costs if these are additional to your original working setup.

    5. LAI*

      I don’t know how often you need to schedule these trainings, but when I’ve had to schedule meetings for people with really busy schedules, I’ve used free doodle polls. You pick a few days and times, put them on the website and have everyone say which ones they can attend. Then you pick the ones that the most people are available for, and that’s when you schedule your meetings.

      1. Knitting Fog*

        I love doodle polls! But sadly they won’t work here–it’s not a white collar environment, and a lot of our older staff members don’t have email addresses or internet access.

    6. Xarcady*

      Another angle to attack is asking your manager how many days you should be devoting to this training, rather than your regular work. I mean, if you have to travel to the training center twice a week for 5 weeks straight in order to fit everyone’s training in, how are you going to get all your other work done? Also ask if the company can either rent you a car orpay for a taxi or otherwise get you to the training site more quickly.

      Someone needs to make it clear to whoever is scheduling the trainees that the training is important and time must be scheduled for it. If not you, then someone who has the authority to make the managers of the trainees sit up and listen. If they aren’t listening to you, maybe they will listen to your boss.

      1. Knitting Fog*

        I’m part-time, so they aren’t too worried about my travel time, because it’s my time I’m losing, not theirs. They don’t have to pay me for it, and they know I’ll still have enough hours left in the week to do the rest of my work.

        I think one of the issues is that the administrative people who deal with the client know that the training is important, but the operations side is rather grudging in their acceptance of that fact. Unfortunately, operations outranks everyone else (it’s a small company), so there’s really no one who can force them to play along. But maybe if I can get some buy-in through a face-to-face meeting where we schedule together, that will help.

        Thank you for the suggestions! You’re right–one way or another operations needs to recognize that the training has to happen.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think you need upper management to get involved. You tried on your own, now it is time for management to step in and say “Okay, we asked nicely and that did not work. Now we are not asking, we are telling you that this is mandatory.”

  23. Nancypie*

    Hello – I am looking for advice on where to get summer tops that are short-sleeved, aren’t sleeveless, that would like under a jacket or cardigan or on their own.

    My office is business casual but really it’s much more on the business end of that spectrum.

    I actually struggle with this year round, as I don’t really like button down dress shirts.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Love21 is Forever21’s “grown up” branch. They have some higher quality items that I’ve found to be work-appropriate and have gotten lots of compliments on. But you do have to dig through a lot of stuff and it’s very hit or miss.

      1. Nancypie*

        Do they have actual stores for Love 21? I’ve gone into Forever 21 and there’s definitely nothing for me there, either professionally or casual style (in my 40s).

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          No, they don’t have separate stores but they should be buried among the regular clothes. If you’re willing to do online shopping, you can sort by label and find them easier.

    2. Anie*

      Depends on your region and pockets. In the Midwest, just out of school, I favored Maurices. Now on the East Coast and with a better paying job, I focus on Anne Taylor/Loft and Banana Republic.

      It’s difficult to find your style. Good luck.

      1. Nancypie*

        Thanks – East Coast. I usually only find tank tops at Anne Taylor (but on the plus side there’s an outlet nearby) – will have to try BR. I rarely go in there.

        1. Kara Ayako*

          I would also recommend Banana Republic and Ann Taylor, but a note: Don’t ever buy anything full price at either, unless you love it so much that you can’t risk not having it. Most of their items eventually go on crazy sale, usually in the 40% range off the regular sale price. If you can shop online, sign up for their emails, and you’ll get very regular emails from both about significant discounts. I typically pay about 20-30% of the original price.

    3. Lo*

      check out work fashion websites like corporette–search for short sleeved shirts and I am sure you will find some great options!

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      Try Target. They have some pretty cute clothes, and they’re reasonably priced. For things like simple, plain tops that you want to wear under a blazer or cardigan, it’s a good option. Also try Old Navy. I go through white tops (tank tops or short sleeved shirts) pretty fast, because I’m large-chested and sometimes no matter how careful I am, I end up having some kind of lunch mishap. It bothers me much less when I’m wearing a top from Old Navy or Target because even if I have to toss it, I haven’t spent a fortune on it.

    5. thisisit*

      Ann Taylor (not Loft) is pretty good, I think. I second Banana Republic. When I lived in DC, the TJ Maxx near Metro Center had fantastic work clothes (other branches not so much), so you could explore that.
      I also remember a line at Macys I liked – INC maybe? There’s also Nordstroms.

      Do you have Zara? Desigual?

    6. Stephanie*

      J. Crew…when they have a sale (their stuff has gotten ludicrously overpriced for what it is).

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        My recent J Crew secret is to pull the clothing ID number from their web site and then search for that number on eBay. It doesn’t work for everything…but I’ve gotten 2 full suits that way. At way less than retail.

    7. Laurel Gray*

      I just purchased 4 from Ann Taylor to tuck into pencil skirts and cropped work pants. They currently have a 40% off sale and a wide variety of patterns and styles. I got lucky with a 60% off sale last week and my shirts are $18-40 each.

    8. Jubilance*

      Try Target. They have a variety of Merona t-shirts and some are thicker/dressier than others, and they also have cute shell tops. Also maybe try the clearance rack at Ann Taylor? There’s where I tend to get my work tops.

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        Nordstrom Rack–specifically Pleione or Daniel Rainn tops. They have a website now.

    9. Sparrow*

      The blog Capitol Hill Style may have some suggestions. Check out the “Ask Belle” category. At the mall, I would cruise through stores like Macys, JC Penny or Sears. I also like The Limited and maybe White House Black Market or H&M.

      1. Addy*

        I second the capital hill style recommendation. She does round ups of this sort of thing weekly

      2. Pipes*

        I buy basically all my nice / work clothes from White House Black Market. They will style for you – you walk in, tell them what you need, and then you go to a fitting room and they bring you clothes, which I love.

        That being said, not cheap. I go maybe twice a year. Today was one of those days. 4 tops and 1 jeans later, it was $335 (before my coupon).

    10. Mz. Puppie*

      I basically only wear exactly what you’re asking about.

      August Silk brand short-sleeve sweaters, available at Macy’s and elsewhere. Thin and breathable, still appropriate without the jacket.

      Also, printed short-sleeve tops made out of polyester & spandex (and sometimes a bit of rayon). The kind of tops that you can squeeze in your hand and it still doesn’t wrinkle. Like this: http://www.jcpenney.com/dotcom/worthington-essential-tee-plus/prod.jump?ppId=pp5003070787&cmvc=JCP|dept20000013|cat100240005|cat100250043|RICHREL&grView=&eventRootCatId=&currentTabCatId=&regId=&rrplacementtype=item_page.dpcontent1

      JC Penney always has tons of those kinds of tops, but Macy’s etc usually have them too.

  24. thisisit*

    I received an offer! Worked out the details of the package this week. Went through a whole internal drama about negotiating, came up with an estimated amount they’d offer, my internal settle point, the amount I’d counter with (and negotiate down from), some arguments for why I’m worth it, etc. And then she goes and offers MORE than the amount I was planning on countering with! So fumbled a bit. We did work out some more favorable benefits, but overall I didn’t negotiate much. I regret it a little, only because I think women should negotiate more, but I couldn’t fault the offer. AT ALL.
    So super happy, but now need to get everything sorted for a move in 6 weeks. Eeek!

    So here’s a question – I had tentatively agreed to do some contract work in October for someone. I don’t want to do it now as I’ll be busy enough with a FT job (I’ve been working on contract for last 2 years). I plan to email her and say I can’t do it anymore because of FT job, but have been warned that she’ll push back and try to pressure me into doing it anyway. How do I hold my ground? I don’t want to just blow her off because we move in the same circles and all that.

    1. Malissa*

      Congrats! Not every offer has to be negotiated. Sometimes they know what people are worth. :)

      1. thisisit*

        i know, but i have this thing about women not negotiating and being too quick to agree, hence the urge to negotiate. for womankind. :P

    2. TheLazyB*

      I’m sorry, it won’t be possible for me to do the work any more. Repeat if necessary.

      You could offer to help her find someone else to do it if you might have useful contacts, but I wouldn’t even do that tbh.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. The less words the better. Using more words seems to invite discussion. NO, this is not a discussion, “I have made commitments that I must keep”.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Congrats on the new job!

      I think giving her six months’ notice that you won’t be able to do the contract work should be enough. Just say “I’ve really enjoyed doing contract work for you these past two years. I’ve just accepted a full-time job, so I wanted to give you as much heads-up as possible that in October I won’t be available to continue that work with you. I’m confident you will be able to find someone good to replace me on this week, and I’ll certainly let you know if there’s someone I can refer to you as well” or something like that.

      The stress here is on:
      1. You have enjoyed the work. You liked working with her.
      2. You are trying to be considerate of her by giving her as much notice as possible (six months).
      3. If you can help out in other ways (finding someone else), you are willing to do so.

      1. thisisit*

        thanks for the pep talk/tips. funny enough, i hated working with them, but i did like the project.

    4. nonegiven*

      “I’m no longer available for your contract work in October.”
      Maybe you have some other people you could refer her to?

    5. thisisit*

      I guess I should be more specific and say that I’m a bit concerned about being given a guilt trip and her having hard feelings about it. She tends to be… very focused on her own needs.

      My new job is in an area related to what she does, and she knows all the big players. I just want to ensure there are no hard feelings. In theory, 6 months is a lot of time for notice and a reasonable person would be fine, but she’s a bit… erratic.

      I’m tempted to maybe fall back on the whole “new job won’t let me take on side gigs in related areas without extensive review” type of thing…

      1. TheLazyB*

        I’d just stick with ‘I’m sorry you are upset about this. However it won’t be possible for me to do this work any more.’ Less is more. Don’t give her anything to try to bargain with. I bet that if you tell her that she’ll try and get you not to tell them/keep it a secret.

      2. Lamb*

        But if she knows all the big players, she may try to use her contacts/clout to get the side work “approved”. Either she’ll find out there’s no such rule, or they’ll tell her they’re fine with you also doing her work (or there really is a rule you can’t do contract work without permission, but since you don’t want to do her work, the new job having a contract review process doesn’t actually do you any good). There’s nothing to gain by giving her that specific excuse.

  25. Forrest*

    How soon do you often hear about a job after an interview? I had an interview last week and am used to either hearing yay or nay right away. In fact, the longer it takes to hear anything often means you didn’t get the job. But anyway, just wanted to poll the audience: how soon after your interview did you hear if you got the job?

    1. ThatOneRedhead*

      At my company, we try to schedule all of the interviews for the position within a couple of weeks, so if you’re the first one to be interviewed, it could be 3 weeks.

    2. TheLazyB*

      I have always heard within 10 days, I think.

      Anecdata – I had an interview on 9th April and an interview on 16th April (yesterday) and was offered both of them yesterday :)

      About 12 years ago I had two interviews on the same day. I was offered one of them the same day and the other about ten days later (after I’d given up on it in all but name).

      (interestingly I often seem to get two offers at once. Because all you need to get a job offer is another job offer. They’re like buses!)

    3. thisisit*

      Depends on the field and your level of experience, I think?

      I just got an offer this week. The timeline:
      mid-Dec: application deadline.
      early Jan: screening.
      mid Jan: written test.
      late Jan: video conference interview (nothing for several weeks, then heard in mid-late Feb for next round)
      early March : in person interview
      early April: request for references
      mid April: offer.

      I’m a mid-level person.

    4. LAI*

      For my current job, I didn’t hear for over a month. It turns out that it is a sign of how bureaucratic our processes are, and how long it actually takes to get simple tasks done, but I still like the job overall…

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I had an interview last week and am used to either hearing yay or nay right away. In fact, the longer it takes to hear anything often means you didn’t get the job.

      I don’t know what industry you’re in (I’ve worked mainly worked in and around education/schools), but that hasn’t been my experience at all—either as a candidate or as a hiring contact. One time, I had a full two months after an interview before more follow-up interviews and an eventual offer.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Uk teaching interviews are insane. Apparently it’s not uncommon for candidates to be kept in a room together, one person is offered the post,if they accept the others are told thanks but no thanks.

        So glad I am not a teacher.

          1. TheLazyB*

            I know!! I thought I was being bullshitted (even though I read it in an interview prep book!) until a friend of mine who is a teacher told me about it.

    6. SP*

      Mine was:
      early January: applied
      mid March- interview
      late March- reference check
      early April- offered the job

  26. I have a question*

    Suppose a male manager, Persival, is told by a female subordinate Penelope that another female subordinate Violet isn’t wearing appropriate undergarments. Should Persival address this with either employee? Persival travels quite a bit for work and is in the office 2-3 days a week so he doesn’t see his employees every day. There is a dress code but it doesn’t require undergarments specifically. This is a business casual environment, and notice is given when visitors (vendors, customers) will be at the office. Dress code probably gets more casual when the boss isn’t there.

    1. ZSD*

      Can we get a little more detail? Are you saying that the co-worker doesn’t wear underwear? Doesn’t wear a bra? Or wears both of these things, but at least one is somehow inappropriate?
      Mostly, I’m wondering how Penelope is *aware* of this.

      1. I have a question*

        Penelope was annoyed that Violet wasn’t wearing a bra (all I know is it happened once, don’t know if it’s a pattern for Violet) so she reported Violet to the manager. Company is too small for hr.

        1. Ezri*

          How did Penelope know Violet wasn’t wearing a bra? I mean, if Violet was wearing no bra and only a thin shirt so that certain anatomical details were visible through it, I could see that being a problem at work. But some women can get away with a layering tank top under a dress shirt without it being as obvious.

          1. MaryMary*

            We had an issue in our office where a young woman wasn’t wearing a bra and chose to wear a sweater dress to work that day. She wasn’t well endowed, but it was VERY obvious. If she’d worn button down and a blazer, I doubt if anyone would have known.

        2. BritCred*

          It depends why she knew that she wasn’t wearing a bra.

          I wear sports tops for comfort instead of bras and if the office gets cold i could see a “nip issue” occuring. I tend to wear heavy shirts so at work you wouldn’t know. However if I was wearing a thinner top its possible someone could assume I wasn’t wearing anything.

          I almost hate asking what view she got to come to the conclusion…

        3. ZSD*

          Thanks. In that case, I would say that Penelope should not have gone straight to Violet’s manager. She might have talked to Violet privately (not accusingly, but rather in a, “I’m not sure if you realize…” way), but going straight to the manager seems ridiculous.

        4. Connie-Lynne*

          What’s the work-related reason Violet needs to wear a bra? I was trying to come up with one and, frankly, I can’t think of one outside “Violet is a model / actress and her costume requires one.”

          If it’s just that Penelope can see a bump for Violet’s nipples or extra sway, IMO it’s on Penelope (and any other coworkers Penelope might be concerned about) to figure out how not to be distracted by Violet’s clothing. I was once instructed to wear a bra by a male manager — while I was wearing one, and a thick sweater.

        5. misspiggy*

          I often don’t wear a bra due to health problems, and it’s never been an issue at work. I can’t see how it would make any difference to observers, assuming clothing is professional and not transparent or gaping. Bras are for improving the comfort of the wearer and smoothing the line of clothes. Having a slightly lumpier than ideal silhouette isn’t going to distract a reasonable person from their work, so why should it be a work problem?

          Unless bras mean something different in America. I once visited an American colleague in her hotel room after she had changed into a t-shirt, and she apologised for not wearing a bra. I hadn’t noticed anyway, but was bemused – it’s not like she was walking around in the nude.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        What about if Violet had high-riding day-glo butt-floss (thong) showing? That’s rather unprofessional, and I actually have a friend who complained about her young coworker wearing low-riding pants and high-riding underwear.

        1. Kara Ayako*

          Then the problem is not the thong but that the person’s shirt wasn’t covering their mid-section so the thong was showing. And then the conversation is about the shirt and exposed midriff, not undergarments.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Ah, I get it. Excellent point.

            But I think the real issue is that this very sensitive and subjective complaint (at least, we don’t have enough specifics to know exactly what was the issue) was received third-hand, and it didn’t affect Penelope directly, so why did she mention it? Was it about the appearance of professionalism? Getting Violet in trouble? Or was it made up? (I wouldn’t normally suggest that, but as I said, there was a lack of specifics.)

            1. Kara Ayako*

              I agree with this. If there was a problem that Penelope saw, and this was coming from a place of wanting to help Violet, then she should have addressed it directly with Violet. Why involve a third-party? Why _complain about someone’s underwear_ to a superior?

        2. Malissa*

          I can tell you everyday what color underwear twoof my coworkers have on. I hate that I know this. Not as much as I hate the fact that they don’t know that you can buy low riding underwear to go with the low riding jeans.

    2. Katy*

      How the heck did Penelope see Violet’s undergarments? Is the problem that Violet isn’t wearing a bra? Otherwise, my vote is that underwear is pareve when it comes to officewear – no judgement call allowed.

    3. Sarah Nicole*

      I’m just wondering how Penelope knew Violet wasn’t wearing the “appropriate” undergarments. Was she wearing a brightly colored bra under a white shirt? I pretty much tend to think a person can wear whatever under garments they want as long as they aren’t showing. Were they?

    4. nona*

      It depends on what exactly the issue is?

      If it’s “I saw Goody Violet’s bra strap once!”, Persival should tell Penelope to mind her own business.

      1. Anx*

        Truly.

        My best fitting bras all have loose shoulder straps. I am not gluing straps to my shoulders. A slip could happen. I don’t wear tank tops, I also wear short sleeves sometimes.

        1. fposte*

          I wish shoulder straps were all really adjustable. However, I have a few wider-cut tops and dresses that I’ve just gone ahead and sewn in the strap-holders to; they really are a blessing, and they’re cheap at JoAnn type places.

          1. Anx*

            I am so doing this this summer if I have an internship where I’d wear cap sleeves.

            I have been pretty short on cash the past few years and started trimming the straps down and reattaching them when they start to stretch a bit. It’s been a lifesaver. So I think I’d be capable of this. Thanks for the suggestion!

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t really see that it’s that big an issue unless it is a repeat issue and it happens in front of vendors/customers.

      That said, if it does become an issue, the male manager can simply say it’s been brought to his attention that her attire lately hasn’t been in line with the company’s dress code.

    6. Observer*

      I think that the key question is how Penelope know this? *IF* the reasons reflects a real problem, then it depends on how often this is happening. If not, Percival should tell Penelope to focus on her work, not her co-worker’s undergarments.

      If there really is an issue, then Percival does need to take it up with Violet, but that conversation is about problem, not the undies. So, if it’s sheer shirts, that’s the problem you address. If it’s Penelope finding a way to look down someone’s shirt, Penelope needs to get a life.

  27. april ludgate*

    What do you do when your coworker tells you they’re planning on asking a new hire a very personal question? A woman I work with has been talking for awhile about how she and her husband want to get pregnant soon. Honestly, that’s something I would consider an overhsare but it’s her life and her prerogative to share. Lately, though, she’s been fixated on the fact that another woman at the same level in the department is also trying to get pregnant and she’s been mentioning it frequently, as though the entire department would collapse if two people were on maternity leave at the same time (it would be inconvenient but we’d survive). This week it was announced that a new hire will be joining the department at her level. He’s a younger man and he mentioned having a wife in casual conversation at his interview and my coworker thinks it’s appropriate to ask if he and his wife are planning to get pregnant. I didn’t feel comfortable saying anything at the time because she is above me in hierarchy but I feel like that is so inappropriate. Pregnancy is such a personal and potentially sensitive topic I can’t imagine ever asking a coworker that question. What if his wife had a miscarriage? Or they’re dealing with infertility? Or they just don’t want kids? I know she’ll likely mention it again and I’d like to have some sort of response other than my WTF? face.

    1. Elkay*

      WTF face is right. What you’ve said here is dead right, it’s inappropriate and insensitive, tell her that.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        You’re right — but I wonder if this isn’t a “how will this company survive!?!” and more of a “Wow… I’m going to be a parent. Other people around me are doing the same thing. I guess it’s true what they say about these things all happening in waves/at the same time. What a coincidence we all want the same thing right now” thing. It also sounds to me that there’s a “race” component to it. If this person is highly competitive in other ways, she may want to be the first to get pregnant, the first to have a baby in the office in X years. Still not appropriate to grill other people about their plans for baby-making, though. There are some people who if they found out that they were having a boy, then found out their friend/coworker/whoever next door was having triplets would feel like they were being shown up. She may be one of those people who is just not happy if others are doing “better” than she is in some way.

        1. april ludgate*

          I’d never thought of it that way, it’s possible that part of it could be a competitive type thing. Mostly, she’s just very controlling, has to have her hand in everything, and I think she’s worried how other people wanting to be on leave at the same time would affect her plans. She’s like that with everything. A coworker at my level told her they might be selling their house/moving, so she went and talked to the head of the department about putting together workflows in case they leave. Their house isn’t even on the market yet.

    2. Sunflower*

      So not appropriate. Especially because this is such an iffy topic in the workplace that I doubt anyone is going to answer honestly.

      1. Nanc*

        She’s essentially planning to quiz someone about their sex life (and discussing her own), not appropriate indeed!

    3. Alison with one L*

      This is literally my nightmare. Please stop your coworker from asking such an inappropriate question. ESPECIALLY, because her concern is based on so many hypotheticals and assumptions.

    4. TheLazyB*

      So inappropriate that I can’t even speak. I would have to have very eloquent WFT face in your situation.

      1. Windchime*

        Super inappropriate. I won’t even ask my son and his bride of 6 months this question because guess what–it’s none of my business! In my opinion, it’s much too personal a question to ask of anyone unless they bring it up first.

        I am, however, bookmarking cute baby things to knit. Just in case.

        1. Marcela*

          Please accept the eternal gratitude of somebody who was told, every time I visited my in-laws, that they wanted a baby. It was the last thing they would say to me at the airport: “next time, come with a baby”.

    5. steve g*

      After living in Czech rep, I find your coworkers fixation odd. Such conversations were….more understandable there because the person would be out a year. maternity is short in the usa that there is a tiny chance that the leaves would overlap unless they all gave birth the same months

      1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        I don’t think this question is understandable anywhere, to be honest! Given that
        1) The coworker is not even this person’s manager
        2) This person has, to our knowledge, never opened discussion on this subject let alone announced an intention to take parental leave
        it would be very out of the blue and inappropriate for the coworker to start grilling him on it.

        I live in an European country where mat leave is very generous and I get that a team needs to plan to accomodate that, but I would be pretty miffed if a rando coworker started asking these questions of me just because I’m young/possibly married.

        1. april ludgate*

          Exactly. She’s not a manager, the new coworker will be at the same level as her (and she’s been here less than a year, so she will barely even have seniority over him) and he hasn’t even started work yet! She said something along the lines of, “Since we couldn’t ask him during the interview process…” so it was obviously something she’d been thinking about for awhile. And we’re in the US so maternity leave is pretty short and paternity leave is basically mythical anyhow.

        2. Steve G*

          I wasn’t even thinking about appropriate vs. not, I was just thinking that even logically, it makes no sense. If the usual maternity is 3 months, the three women in question (one of them who doesn’t even work there!!) would need to have their kids within 12 or 13 weeks of eachother for their to even be any overlap – which was the nosy coworkers’ concern. The chances of that are highly unlikely!

          1. TheLazyB*

            After years (literally) of no women being pregnant in my building, in 2011 5 of us had babies in the space of I think 10 weeks.

            Two of them were in IT , but luckily the rest of us were all different departments.

            In fact thinking back I think the first baby was late and the last was early so it was maybe within 10 weeks.

            That was about 10% of our building out on maternity leave for between 6 and 12 months.

    6. Not Good At These*

      Say exactly what you’ve expressed here. “Jane, I don’t think you should ask Sam about his procreation plans. It’s really none of our business and can be a very sensitive topic for many people. I’m sure Sam will tell us if/when his wife becomes pregnant. Now, what do you think of this teapot design from Teapot Design Team A?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, really. “Jane, why would we need to know that? What will we do with that information if we get it? And if Sam says they plan to have kids, will Sam use that question against the company later if he is denied a promotion or another opportunity?”
        Sometimes asking questions about the next step is enough to stop the first step of a process.

    7. Anx*

      I think one possible scenario here is that she feels like she wants to have a baby, cares about the impact it has on her employers, and letting that cloud her judgment.

      I know some people who are choosing not to get pregnant because they don’t want to ‘do that to their company’ while someone else in on maternity leave or because someone else wants to get pregnant more. Or they are afraid that if they all do get pregnant, they’ll be setting women in the workforce back because hiring young women did end up costing the company after all.

      Maybe she feels responsible for covering all the bases? She seems like she should relax. It wouldn’t be her fault if you ended up short-staffed. That’s just part of doing business in the US (I’m assuming you’re in the US).

    8. BeckyDaTechie*

      “Their decision to have kids or not isn’t really relevant to working here. There’s no reason to pry. And I can’t help but feel that it’s too soon to worry about you and Coworker being out on maternity leave at the same time, so we’ll cross that bridge if we come to it. (Topic Change).”

    9. Lamb*

      You could always point out to her that she is essentially planning to ask this near-stranger whether he’ll be having unprotected sex with his wife soon.

  28. Windchime*

    I’m wondering if managers can chime in on this one.

    We have a person on our team (“Sam”) who is a really, really nice man. He has had a long and difficult life, including prison camp and escaping his home country in a rickety, scary boat. He worked for years to get the rest of his family out of that country. He is now approaching retirement age, but says that he needs/wants to keep working a few more years because he is financially responsible for a lot of his extended family. He is just a really good person.

    However, he is also not so great at his work. Our team was formed several years ago by moving people from existing teams to this one. The current managers were not involved in the choosing of who was moved to this team. Sam previously worked independently, so if he wrote a big pile of spaghetti code it didn’t really affect anyone other than himself. Now, however, it affects the team. About 90% of his work ends up having to be redone because it is fragile and bug-prone. The bulk of our help-desk tickets are for work that he has done. When he fixes the problem that the ticket describes, it usually causes another problem.

    Management is working on this situation and I fear that it will end badly for Sam. Here is my question: As a manager, how does one balance out having to fire/demote someone who does poor work but who is truly a really good person who will suffer real (financial) consequences if he loses his job? I’m just so worried about all this. I’m not management, but I can see the handwriting on the wall. On the one hand, I will be relieved to no longer have to clean up after him, but on the other hand–he is just such a good person.

    1. Christy*

      Everyone, pretty much, has real (financial) consequences when they lose their job. And really, most people are good people. It sucks for Sam, but he’s being paid to do his job well, and it sounds like he’s failing at that.

      1. Carrington Barr*

        Exactly. This is the same sort of BS that childfree people often face — “Oh, but we can’t fire Bob, he’s got 3 kids to support!”

        **Everyone** has obligations. Some people are just more … vocal about it than others.

          1. NacSacJack*

            I am not a manager either, but something someone in HR told me once sticks with me during layoffs. Remember that the person (manager) on the other side of the table is a person too. And she told me to remember that remark applies all the way up to the CEO. Managers have to make decisions all the time that affect people . Those decisions, good and bad, impact the manager emotionally. The manager is going to feel bad about laying someone off or firing someone. They have emotions too. They have to deal with them in their own way.

          2. fposte*

            Sure, but that’s why firing is tough–it’s rare that you’re firing a genuinely bad person, or somebody who’s privately rich and won’t be impacted by the loss of a paycheck.

            And the person who will have the job when he goes is likely also to be a good person who really needs the paycheck. Why should she not get to save for her retirement as well? I think for you this is hard because you’re only seeing that one person in front of you and not all the other relevant people. Which is fine, because you’re not the manager, and you can afford to do that. And you can always take the usual emotional shortcut and blame the manager :-).

            But from a management standpoint, not firing people (or managing them out) because you feel bad about what will happen to them is how you get a lot of the miserable work situations people write in about. Everybody in this situation is significant–your manager, your co-workers, your company, the person who will be hired; it’s not just about the guy who may be fired.

            1. Windchime*

              This is a really good point to remember. Today was very, very rough. His code broke the build (again). There were several more confusing emails and trouble tickets, and then it was discovered that he is maintaining a copy of an old, deprecated database that was supposed to be retired a YEAR ago, and is still manually producing reports out of it. This could actually be the last straw; I think our big boss will probably come unglued (in his professional, mild-mannered way) when he hears this news.

        1. jag*

          Yes everyone has obligations. Yes, some are more vocal than others. But some actually have more than others. They do.

          I’ve got money in the bank and for years had no dependents. I had less obligations than someone with a bunch of family members in another country who rely in part on remittances. That’s just true.

    2. yup*

      I’m not a manager but perhaps, as his coworker, you can take him out to lunch and give him a heads up about what’s going on in an honest and genuine way. He would want to know (wouldn’t you?) so that he can go into his performance meeting already articulated what he’s going to do about it (whatever he can). Might save his job. Maybe he makes mistakes at work because he has so much going on at home, too, so he might need a reminder to get extra focused on his work quality for the moment.

      1. NacSacJack*

        If Windchime is a manager too, or privy to discussions about his employment, he or she cannot give him a heads up.

        1. Windchime*

          I’m not a manager but I can tell by the kinds of questions and documentation that I’m being asked for that steps are likely being taken. I have tried in all the ways I know to help him to succeed but it’s just not happening.

    3. Christian Troy*

      Why is he writing a pile of spaghetti code? Does he not have the skill set for the job or is he doing poorly because of other reasons? Is it something more training or a workshop could address?

      I’m not a manager so I don’t know what the best course of action is but I agree with Christy. Everyone has financial consequences when they lose their job. Maybe Sam’s story is more obvious because he’s disclosed it, but it doesn’t meant other people aren’t facing similar hardships just because they haven’t articulated them.

      1. Windchime*

        I’m not sure why he does things the way he does. I believe he’s just really old-school and isn’t able/willing to change. I can’t tell if he doesn’t understand of if he just doesn’t care. I am not his manager, but I am more senior to him. I have written countless documents with screen shots to help him, but I don’t think he ever looks at them. I have explained things over and over, and we have implemented many processes (that the whole team must follow) in an attempt to keep his work between the rails. Trainings and workshops don’t seem to have much impact; the only time I have been in training with him, I could tell that he wasn’t really absorbing anything.

        1. Sunflower*

          I think this is the issue right here. Truth is, I totally get where you’re at and I’d feel the same way too. Is the writing on the wall as clear for Sam? The only thing I think you can do is take him out and explain if he refuses to change, he’s going to lose his job. That should be enough for him to change his ways if he really wants to keep his job.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            I’ve worked with a Sam, and I don’t think he is able to change. Even if he knows he will lose his job. He will try to change, but I suspect he’s simply not capable. He’s learned how to do things one way, and isn’t cut out for the constantly shifting landscape of computer work.

            1. Windchime*

              This is really what I suspect. It’s a shame, because he’s just such a good person. But it’s exhausting having to do my work and clean up his as well.

              1. Nicole*

                I admire your concern for this person. Frankly, no matter how nice someone was, if they couldn’t or wouldn’t do the work required, I’d start to resent them and dislike them.

        2. Ezri*

          I think I’d have more sympathy if Sam realized he was falling behind and was making an effort to improve, but it doesn’t sound like that’s happening. Does he know his job is at risk? You said you’ve provided trainings and guidelines, but has his manager told him directly that he’s not meeting the requirements of the role? If he thinks he’ll be kept on no matter what, I could see why he might not be motivated to improve.

    4. brightstar*

      As a manager, you have to be focused on more than one person. Having to deal with this is probably affecting your entire team, and that has to be one of your priorities, the morale of the whole group. If your entire team is suffering because of one person, that has greater consequences than just one person having a hard time. Basically, it isn’t personal. You can think someone is a wonderful person who should be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize but if they aren’t suited for that particular position and it’s affecting everyone else negatively, that has to be your concern more than “He’s such a great guy”. It doesn’t mean it’s easy, but you do have to be pragmatic.

      1. Windchime*

        I agree with everything that you all have said. It’s just really sad to watch this slow-motion train wreck.

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      Not a manager, but is there anything Sam does do well? Even if there’s no role for him anymore at your company, it may soften the blow a bit if you can tell him what kind of job he could excel in.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      In these circumstances, and assuming that he had worked for the company for a number of years, AND that he’s co-operative and pleasant, I’d do my best to reposition him.

      Success rate is only about 50/50 when trying to reposition people, but it’s worth trying.

    7. AE*

      There is certainly something that he can be trusted to do right, or right enough. His years with the company should have given him knowledge that can’t be duplicated, too. It may be for upper management to fix if he’s not a good fit for his current team. In many places a demotion in responsibility doesn’t necessarily mean a demotion in income, and even if it did, it would be more than unemployment compensation.

      1. Windchime*

        I’m hoping that they can find another role for him, even if it’s a demotion. He’s certainly not functioning at the Senior level role that he currently occupies.

        1. SadManager*

          I am a manager who had to fire a Sam once. Lovely guy, had been with the company forever and had family obligations. He was very knowledgeable, and could tell the team a lot about historical decisions. Unfortunately, the work he was doing poorly meant either someone else in the team picked up his slack, processes he worked on were a mess, or he gave customers incorrect information. I tried to work with on it, but at the end of the day it was the way he approached work and life more generally – he wasn’t able to change. Although I looked for other internal positions, the reality was that he would have bought the same “game” any where he was in the company. I was very sad to have to let him go, but have never regretted it – the team works better without him, and I was able to fill his position with someone who was a better fit.

    8. BeckyDaTechie*

      How much is language a factor in his difficulties? Could that manner of help be part of a PIP to make one last-ditch effort and keeping a dedicated and long-time employee productive?

  29. Sophia in the DMV*

    This is such an awful proposed bill because it would effectively make all faculty members managers. They don’t understand that service to the department, university and profession is both voluntary but also an expected part of the job. The three legs of being a faculty member are: research, teaching and service. Depending on where you work, there’s more emphasis on one or more over the others, but those are the pillars.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/04/17/ohio-bill-would-effectively-bar-faculty-unions-public-colleges

    1. BeckyDaTechie*

      And people wonder why I’m so proud to be *from* Ohio but don’t live there any longer. :(

  30. Violet Rose*

    It’s Transphobia Week in my office this week! And when you start identifying weeks by which prejudice was most prominently on display, you know you’re in the wrong office.

    In short: I have tentatively suggested a few times now that we include an option for gender in addition to “male” and “female”, on the grounds of inclusivity. Based on this, I was asked who was left out, so I started giving examples. Truly, I probably could have explained myself a bit better, but I think even the most polished and persuasive proposals would have failed given what happened next:

    “Mid-transition” and “third gender” have become running jokes.

    Yup.

    As a cis woman, I’m not always the best judge of transphobia, but the whole situation made me feel gross. To make matters worse, I feel like I’ve gained the title of “PC Police” for even making the suggestion. I know now this is an office where I would NEVER feel comfortable being out, and that alone would be enough to nudge me towards the door.

    This is part of a long pattern of “everything that is not me”-ist behaviour from the CEO, and now others are joining in. This week has pushed me over the edge from “I’m having a difficult time with one of my higher-ups” to “I just want to be *gone*.”

    1. ZSD*

      Yuck. In a perfect world, you’d be able to speak up about this and educate people, but I can see why that might just not be possible.
      But yuck.

      1. ZSD*

        Oh, I hope it’s clear that I mean “yuck” to your colleagues’ behavior, not “yuck” to the people they’re making fun of.

    2. steve g*

      I totally agree with the first paragraph. Everyone should be focusing on different things (more work related).

    3. nona*

      Oh, gross.

      P.S. what if the options were replaced with a fill-in-the-blank? I can’t think of anyone who would complain about that.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        There’s actually a lot of research/thinking available on how to handle gender identities on forms. Some folks feel that listing various identities helps to make it safe for trans* folks to identify themselves.

        My last employer did a lot of thinking on this. Last I saw, we included a pretty long list (Male, Female, Male to Female, Transgender, etc.) and an “Other:_______” option. But I definitely got pushback on that, too.

        1. nona*

          IMO, that can single people out. For example, the options “female” and “male to female” force a differentiation between women who would both describe themselves as “female” and may not want to disclose anything past that.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Oh, sorry, yes – this was a list where you could check as many as you like.

            But more to the point, what I really meant to get across is that lots of folks with actual expertise in trans* advocacy have done a lot of thinking about this.

            1. Violet Rose*

              Yeah, I did some reading up when I was trying to come up with an alternate proposal and found some really interesting stuff! Give the constraint of “at most three options or withheld,” I spent some time trying to think of a less alienating choice than “other” (since “decline to state” means just not making a selection). So far the best I can come up with is “neither”, which isn’t really accurate. I like “check all that apply”!

            2. nona*

              OK, sounds good!

              I do have a lot of experience working and being involved in local LGBT community. My opinion here’s just based on that – no “expertise.” :)

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Oh geez, I just realized that it sounded like I was sniping at your lack of “expertise.” I actually meant to emphasize MY lack of expertise. :)

                1. nona*

                  Don’t worry, I didn’t read it that way! What I mean is – what I know about this is anecdotal.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Gross. Are you comfortable speaking up and saying something like, “Joking about this is actually really offensive and a good way to create an unwelcome and hostile environment for people who might be different from you. Can you please stop?”

      1. Violet Rose*

        Unfortunately, 90% of this comes from the CEO, and he has a long and documented history of alienating behaviour like this. I raised concerns with my manager re: some sexist undertones, and the upshot of the conversation was, “He’s hard to deal with sometimes, but he’s not going to change”. He did say come to him [manager] if he [CEO] said something really egregious, and I probably should try, but I have serious doubts that he’d even see why it was offensive.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      Where are you suggesting including gender? For toilets? For job applications? It seems like there are some cases where it matters and others where it doesn’t.

      I’m not saying it’s ever ok to joke about it, although I’m not surprised. That’s often how people react when they are uncomfortable with a conversation.

      1. Violet Rose*

        Ah, whoops, context would help! We’re looking to launch an, er, social media service (think snapchat or Twitter; something with accounts and basic profiles). Really, I think gender is only being collected for marketing, which frustrates me on a whole other level, but I can deal with my distaste for gendered marketing. The chief exec has been very adamant that there be only two options in the past – at one point, there was talk of making this required information, but fortunately, we went with “streamlined registration” instead

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, in that case, if people are asked to identify, they should have options. It sounds like your company is trying to make sure their only customers are those who are completely comfortable with only two options being offered. And, uh, is that legal?

          1. Sarah in DC*

            Unfortunately there are very few protections for people who don’t identify as either male or female, so in this case its almost certainly legal.

        2. The Strand*

          Yeah, that makes a huge difference. Couldn’t “other” or “prefer not to answer” be offered? (many women don’t want to say so when they’re gaming, for one thing).

          What are competitors doing?

          1. Sunflower*

            I like having both Prefer to not answer and Other:________. They can either fill in the other or just check other and leave it blank.

          2. Violet Rose*

            At the moment, it’s a pair of buttons, only one of which can be selected at a time – and once you select, you can’t deselect. Now that a third button has been so soundly shot down, I’m hoping to persuade the lead programmer to at least allow deselection.

            Come to think of it, I’m not sure any of our competitors ask for gender at all. The service is targeted at groups of friends who know each other, rather than strangers, so the only purpose I see is collecting demographic data – which would be inaccurate with only two options anyway!

        3. Andrea*

          Can it be a fill-in-the-blank question where users self-identify if they want, and can leave blank if they don’t?

          1. Violet Rose*

            Ooh, I like the idea of including both the more generic “other” and “it’s complicated”.

      2. The Strand*

        Too right. Is it a battle worth fighting?

        These jokes are hurtful and bad, but it’s because the coworkers and management are threatened and scared. It’s actually the baby steps like language that can be the most threatening, versus say, someone well-liked at work who might announce, “I’m transitioning”, who everyone won’t just joke away at. Those teaching moments will come.

        Whether something is a meaningful change, a need that has to be filled, versus something that you think makes the environment more “inclusive” are two very different things. If you want to see change, you really have to strategize about what you want and what will help your cause overall. Getting gay or queer people marriage and partner benefits will be a net good for them and their partners and children, and will go a long way to resolving how non-gender-conforming people are treated in the workplace. Moreso than telling people they have to use certain terms and not others. But you can’t tell people how to think, just how to act. That’s a lot easier if you have something for them to *react* to.

        I’ll never forget how upset a training class became when a very young, very well-meaning HR rep corrected a coworker in front of everyone and told him, ‘It’s not Deaf, it’s hearing impaired.” (She was, alas, full of it – there are many, many ‘hearing impaired’ persons who call themselves Deaf and consider it a distinct culture.) Cue about thirteen people at once saying, “I can’t say Deaf? Calling someone Deaf is offensive now? Since when is Deaf not OK?” And you know, do you think they thought at all, afterwards, about actual disability efforts they could do, like providing braille on signs, subtitles on videos, learning sign language, and making websites usable by the blind? No, they went back to their offices and coworkers and ranted about how the HR rep accused the man of prejudice.

        I’ll never forget a former boss’ reaction when I mentioned reaching out to the gay community in a service project we had been assigned. She took in a big, big breath and stifled. That told me that something minor and obvious was a fairly big deal to her. She doesn’t know (or want to know) that she has gay and bisexual people working for and alongside her. She had a clash with another coworker that had cultural differences at their core. Her boss? Not willing to work on disability related needs until the legal consequences of not following Section 508 were spelled out to her by people at higher paygrades. In that type of environment, I would wait until there was an egregious case of discrimination or bad behavior to speak up, because that’s where I think there would be an opportunity for growth.

    6. Enigma*

      As someone who is trans, that is really gross and transphobic. I’m sorry you have to work with people like that. Good on you for suggesting other gender options, though. Even if your company won’t go for it, that’s awesome that you tried.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        As someone for whom this is an issue, what would you like to see? Not that I’m saying you could ever speak for every trans individual everywhere — but for myself, this is not a choice or situation that I would ever find myself in, so I’m just curious what, if anything, would be an acceptable way to handle this from your perspective? I can see that it’s kind of a double edged sword, it would be nice to be recognised, but that recognition might open people up to discrimination or worse.

        1. Enigma*

          Hey sorry for the late reply- I hope you see this response!

          Personally (and like you said, I can only really speak for myself) I think it’s best handled with a wide variety of options to chose from. If you have a form where you can check “man” or “woman”, why not add other options like “trans”, “trans man”, “trans woman”, “non-binary”, etc.? If someone doesn’t want to out themselves, they can easily select “man” or “woman” and not worry about it. But it’s a lot less “othering” to have options spelled out for you, rather than just “man”, “woman”, and “other” and it makes it readily apparent that this is an organization who is up-to-date on gender issues and, on some level, cares about them. Which puts me more at ease in general.

          Also I know that, for me, I’d be more likely to write in my gender in an “other” space if there was already a wider variety of options available (I’m non-binary, for the record, which is not an option that is always available even on the best of forms). If there are half a dozen options for gender, I know that that place is more likely to be accepting and so I’m more likely to be open about my own gender. If I only see two options, I’m forced to go with the lesser of two evils and it immediately puts me on edge. Or, if it’s an optional survey or something I’m filling out, I’ll just stop answering.

  31. vecurabe*

    Getting nervous about giving notice on Monday. My boss considers me a friend and brought me over from our previous company, but for the past two years, I’ve been absolutely miserable at this company. On the one hand, I feel like I’ve fixed all the very serious problems the company had, so I’m leaving them in a much better place. On the other hand, I think my boss was expecting me to let him know when I was thinking about leaving. Honestly, I knew since my first day I wouldn’t stay.

    Wish I’d felt comfortable telling him that I planned to leave, but I wasn’t sure how long it would take me to find my next job versus how long it would take him to find my replacement. Will be glad to the “giving notice” discussion over with.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Think of this as practice here. Try to come up with one or two things that you can sincerely thank your boss for. Sometimes miserable jobs teach us a lot, did you learn a lot on this job? Did you meet some good people? You got some experience in successfully fixing serious problems, can you work that into something that you are grateful for?

      If he mentions the timing, just say you are sorry, this just came up and you had hoped for better. Tell him you are willing to help with the change over as best you can.

      OTH, be prepared for surprises such as he tells you he is looking, also. Maybe this will not be as tough as you think.
      Good luck! And congrats on the new job.

  32. Jennifer*

    This week, my country-music-playing coworker *finally* got told she has to use headphones. She is not happy about it (keeps grumbling about the headphones and that “it’s so quiet”, but has been relatively not super pouty about it, so that’s nice. Still has it on before 8 a.m./when she can get away with it, though. And she still sings along.

    Well, what can you do. But I’ve managed to go a few days without HEY BARTENDER! screeching at me 4 times a day, so that’s something!

    1. Snoskred*

      Jennifer – YAY re the lack of “Hey Bartender” in your ears, I will hope it can continue for a long time, with the only possible exception being in a restaurant with an actual bar. :)

      1. Jennifer*

        Oh, now she’s sneaking turning the radio on when the boss isn’t here.

        So much for THAT.

    2. Beezus*

      Uhhh, did you send her to work with me? Because my open-plan strictly no-music office has someone playing country music right this minute. I even like country, but I don’t want to listen to someone else’s music when I am trying to concentrate and finish up my day.

  33. TheLazyB*

    Yay open thread time!

    So I took voluntary redundancy at the end of March. It was a really hard decision but definitely the right one to make, but I was really scared that I’d become one of those people who was unemployed for 6 months or a year, especially as I was pretty well paid for what I did before (PA) and want to move into a new sector – public health.

    I’ve applied for three jobs so far, and amazingly, I’ve been offered two of them!!! Amazing I know (and clearly I was wasted on my previous employer haha). I’m taking one that is working for a really flexible employer and will be working 2 days from home (which I’ve never been able to do before – again, yay!).

    But – my son is nearly four, and I’ve been working part time since he was born. So, I’m after hints on three things:
    1) how to transition back into full time employment after not working full time for a long time – my last day of full time work was 31st May 2011!
    2) how to support my son into dealing with me going from part time to full time. I’m very much an attachment parent and it will be hard on us both. Oh, and anything to consider that might make that transition easier for me too :-/ (my husband might reduce his hours a bit to compensate, which would be fab)
    3) how to deal with remote working! As far as I can tell only one member of my team will be based in the same office as me and she will be new too (same role). I’m really pleased that she’ll be based with me and we can work together but the rest of my team will be far away. I’ll travel to team meetings and we have meetings where I can dial in and all that – the organisation is really set up for that kind ofthing – but it’s totally new to me so anything that will help me or anything I might not have thought of would be fab.

    THanks in advance to anyone who can help!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      The nice thing about attachment parenting is that you usually get very secure little people who will probably handle being apart from you better than you will handle being apart from them! I am not sure what to suggest except letting him get used to the daycare setting or whatever/whoever the new care arrangements will entail.

      The third item is the one I have the most experience with, and in short, start off with an in-person team meeting ASAP, and try to get everyone webcams.

      See, I’m sure everyone has had an email or blog comment misconstrued, and part of that is the lack of context. You don’t know me, so you don’t know my intentions, how I joke, whether I’m sarcastic or a rah-rah cheerleader, and it’s hard to have that kind of context without having spoken to someone in person. When I ran bulletin boards and web forums, I always tried to meet with my fellow moderators and community managers, and I found that it went MUCH more smoothly after that.

      And the webcams are a big help even when you do know each other. You know how different it is to participate in a conference call than it is to be in the room? Video conferencing solves 90% of that. You can see peoples’ reactions, you can see who is squirming in their seat, and you can tell whether it’s out of boredom or out of eagerness to contribute. We had offsite staff that had been onsite previously, and they LOVED being videoconferenced into the physical conference room where most of us were meeting in person. They felt much more involved and heard.

      Good luck!

      1. TheLazyB*

        Wrt my son – Luckily he can go full time where he’s been every morning for 3 years :) so that’s fab and will help.

        Re the third point – THANK YOU! That’s really helpful :)

        1. april ludgate*

          I worked at a daycare for awhile and one of the best things you could do to ease your son’s transition is to find out the schedule the daycare follows for meals and naps and start him on that schedule now if you can. That way his body will at least be used to eating and sleeping on daycare time so he won’t lay awake half of naptime and falling asleep during playtime. I saw more kids struggle with adapting physically than emotionally. And if he’s already familiar with the daycare it will only make for a smoother transition. Good luck!

    2. OriginalEmma*

      PA – personal assistant or physician’s assistant? Either way, congratulations! Public health is a great field!

    3. The IT Manager*

      Find someone (or someones) to mentor/guide you that you can call and talk to to help you navigate the virtual team. Use IM frequently for those questions you would turn to a co-worker and ask. Also IM is a great help during meetings when you as the newbie needs context (to include “who’s talking now?” until you learn people’s voices).
      Take advantage of those face-to-face meetings to build relationships that you can leverage when you’re virtual. Maybe start virtual meetings with small talk to try to get to know your team members a bit more fully. I have been on teams where that was the norm, and on teams where the talk is all professional and you often never get to know anything about anyone besides how they work. I think the small talk and sharing is important for relationship building. But most of all follow the team culture.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh wow thanks for that. I’ve literally never had access to IM in work before so i might struggle to remember it even existsatfirst :)

        1. The IT Manager*

          For us IM is the equivalent of asking the the person next to you a questions. They can ignore you if they’re on a call or busy, but your question doesn’t get buried in email.

  34. A*

    A bit unsure what to do here….

    I am a University student with a new part time job in retail. When I applied for the job, I gave my availability as 8am-8pm on the 5 days of the week where I don’t have class which they agreed to. I gave these hours because I am 100% reliant on public transport and in my city, it doesn’t start running until 7am, unless I walk 2km in the dark to get a night bus from a very sketchy area which is full of nightclubs. Now they are giving me 5am shits to unpack delivery and I have no way of safely getting there unless I pay for a taxi and I’m now spending half of what I make for the 5 hour shifts on the cab fare to get there. When I’ve tried to approach this with management, I’ve been told to ‘deal with it’.

    How can I handle this? It’s affecting my budget, I’m annoyed they went back on what we agreed to AND I’m extremely annoyed at the lack of safety considerations for me as a young female employee.

    I’ve resigned myself to looking for a new job, but I’ve only been at this one about 3 months, how do I handle it without looking like a ‘job hopper’?

    1. matcha123*

      I think that in university, with part-time jobs of this sort, no one expects you to be there long. There aren’t many jobs that students have that last for the long-term. And if someone asks you about it, you can tell them that the commute and schedule didn’t work out and you decided it would be best to find something closer/etc.

    2. thisisit*

      i wouldn’t worry about the jobhopper bit since you are at university and it’s assumed you work around your school schedule. did you get the 8am start time in writing?

    3. MsM*

      You’re allowed a couple of non-starter jobs, particularly early in your career. And it’s totally fine to say that management insisted you do regular shifts outside the availability you’d provided. It may even wind up being a good way to flag other employers who are going to jerk you around like this before you find yourself in a similar situation again.

    4. Dawn*

      You told management that you can only work 8am to 8pm five days a week, yet by showing up for your 5am shifts you are proving that wrong. So stop showing up to 5am shifts! Tell management that you can no longer show up for 5am shifts, period end of sentence, so you will have to be scheduled between 8am and 8pm, and can they accommodate that. And if they cannot, then leave.

      “Job hopping” like we talk about it here tends to be more about professionals who leave an established workplace after only a year or two multiple times over. I doubt anyone will hold any part time retail work you did in college against you- hell, I didn’t even list that stuff on my resume after I graduated.

    5. Jennifer*

      This sounds like every retail job I’ve ever heard of. It doesn’t matter WHAT you put down as availability, they will give you whatever shifts you specifically told them you could not make.

      Can you get a job at your college? Those are the only places that will respect flexible scheduling.

      1. nonegiven*

        My niece had 3 small part time jobs on campus, at the same time. One was a reception desk, one was grading papers, I think.

    6. Retail Lifer*

      Dealt with this for my entire life! I’m a manager, so I have to jump when they say jump, and they sometimes require me to jump before or after public transportation is running. However, I’m full-time, a manager, and making an OK salary, so taking Uber now and then can be expected of me. It’s completely different with part-time associates, though. From a common sense standpoint, they hired you knowing you were in school and thus had limited availability and they were willing to work with that. They have managed to not schedule you while you have class, so they should be able to manage not scheduling you outside of your other requirements.

      Keep in mind, though, that people that don’t take public transporation don’t have to worry about these things themselves, so it legitimately might never have occurred to them that you can’t get there before or after a certain time. Speak up. Take a bus schedule and show them if you need to. Ensure that they know that if there is a mandatory meeting or an occassional special project taking place during off hours that you would be happy to spring for a cab, but it’s not something you can afford regularly.

      If they don’t agree, then find another job. You have an entirely valid reason for leaving. Just make sure you’re clear and up front in your next interview about what you can and can’t do. Some managers will not be willing to work with you on that, and it’s better to find that out before you start.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        I do something similar with my clients, because rush hour around here is insane but, the train schedule isn’t nice and neat. If someone wants me to be there for 9am, it requires some mental gymnastics to figure out what train, how long to walk/take transit. Sometimes I ask if it’s OK if I’m a few minutes past the hour when I know (or suspect) that being there on the dot isn’t crucial and explain that I will be coming on the train, it gets in at X time, sometimes it’s delayed. Usually, they’re OK with that, but it’s good to know when they’re not so I can adjust accordingly.

    7. The Strand*

      Don’t worry about it. I went through something like this at the beginning of my career, was treated like crap, quit, and it didn’t hurt me in the long run. (In my case, after being hired for daytime (yes, in writing), I was told to work the graveyard shift… in a sketchy area with nightclubs and no transportation.)

      You’re in college so some shorter positions are expected. Just be factual if you get asked about it: “I was looking for a standard 8 to 5 position during school. They suddenly switched my schedule, and had me coming in at 5 AM before transportation was available, in a transitional neighborhood.” Many, many people will just nod in recognition – and not have a problem.

      More importantly, quit spending your earnings on taxi cabs. Be firm with them and if you have to, quit. Go sign up with a temporary staffing firm and explain you can only work normal daytime hours; then sign up with some others. Call in every morning until they offer you a basic (one day) assignment, then do well. They’ll offer you something longer if you keep at it.

      1. Anx*

        The only problem with that, I see, is that you have to get to the interview stage before you can explain that.

        I am not sure if this person is in university right out of high school, or if they have a longer history of having part-time work that may look a little job hoppy.

        1. fposte*

          It’s still really not likely to matter once they graduate. It’s pretty rare to put pre-college jobs on a post-college resume.

    8. AE*

      Leaving when you have a good story is a good way to leave. Plus, when you interview for your next job, telling them that you’re quitting because of the early schedule pretty much guarantees the new place won’t do that to you. Your current employer was dishonest with you. There’s no shame in leaving them.

    9. Cee*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t worry too much about the job hopper thing working part-time in school. It only really applies when you’re out in the full-time workforce. Are there any work-study and/or campus jobs you can apply for? Those tend to be really good about working with your class schedule.

  35. Trixie*

    Looking at a new PT gig contributing to a blog (!). Short contract to start with, see how it goes on both ends, and then a longer contract after that. This is extremely vague but what kinds of things should I keep in mind when looking at contract work? I specified some things in my quote. I know the company/staff really well and am confident we’ll tackle any issues together until we find a solution we’re both happy with. But short-term contracts are new to me.

    1. thisisit*

      make sure you have a very clear statement of work that indicates what your responsibilities are.

      are you getting paid by the hour? by the deliverable? is there a fixed start/stop date? is there flexibility for meeting deadlines?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        And what’s the timeline for payments? You want that spelled out so that you have something to point to if suddenly there’s a long lag for payment.

  36. Alison with one L*

    I’ve recently realized how much I truly love my job. I’m doing meaningful work, learning more than I ever expected, regularly given more and more responsibility, and contributing to the public in a meaningful way (healthcare -field). I get regular positive and constructive feedback from my managers. Honestly, I’m really happy.

    What I want to ask about is for my husband. He is not currently happy with his position. His manager says things to cut him down and remove his pride and “ownership” of his own work/projects. He sees a lot of issues in the company culture that I’m not sure can be readily changed. I don’t know how to help him. Has anyone had any success with changing an attitude towards a bummer workplace?

    He wants to stay for at least a few more years before he gets his PE and starts out on his own. What can he/I do to become happier with his work in the mean time?

    1. Lyra Belacqua*

      Not to sound super hippy-dippy, but I’ve actually found mindfulness-type books and meditations to be really helpful in recognizing where I’m identifying with something ephemeral or where my ego is causing suffering. I’ve been working in a boring office environment with some territorialism that I wasn’t used to, and it’s helped me to remind myself that my job is not my identity, etc. I actually just finished reading Eckhart Tolle’s book “A New Earth”, and it had a lot of nice insights. It starts out kind of obnoxiously but it gets better as you go.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Pretty much he can only change himself since the situation is not fixable.
      Is there anyway he can accelerate his plans? Is there another job he could take for the interim?

      Explain to him that his unhappiness at work is a quality of life issue and ask him which is more important- the job or the quality of life?

      My husband was at a job for eight years that was miserable. The last three years I nagged. I think he got sick of listening to me. Explain to him that the damage from jobs like this stays with us longer than we expect. Is it worth it??

  37. TheLazyB*

    And a question for my fellow UK readers!

    It’s always strange to me when on here I hear tales of people being interviewed and even getting offers without then ever hearing anything again. I have always had a phone call or email from an interview, whether good news or bad. Have I just been really lucky, or do UK people in general find this?

    FWIW I’ve always worked in the public sector, but had interviews for both that and the private and third sectors.

    1. Elkay*

      Post interview I’ve always heard but I’ve definitely had some applications go into a black hole.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh most of my applications have gone into some black hole. But once I’m interviewed people do seem to come back to me.

    2. Macedon*

      You’ve been really lucky. This sort of oversight is increasingly contagious, and big name companies I’d have thought weaned on PR & etiquette have taught me differently.

    3. Xarcady*

      One interview went really well. I followed up three weeks later and was told they were still interviewing, but that I was definitely in the running for one of the three positions they had open. Then silence.

      I found out months later that they reduced the three positions to one, and hired back someone they had fired two years before.

      Nothing better for the ol’ self-esteem than realizing they’d rather hire back someone they fired than hire you.

    4. Short and Stout*

      Nope. I once travelled 200 miles and paid my own B&B costs to interview with someone I knew from a previous job and never heard back. This was for a very small company without a HR department.

    5. Carrie in Scotland*

      I’ve had a bunch of applications go into the dark, dark space vortex but I think almost all of my interviewers have followed up in some way or another: either by phone (both successful and rejection), email or letter (!! – which by that point I’d figured out I wasn’t getting it).

    6. Cristina in England*

      I’ve never had an application get to interview stage and not heard back. You’re not alone!

    7. Maisie*

      Most of my black hole applications were to minimum wage jobs in retail/call centres etc.

      I work in the third sector, almost all charities got back to me in a reasonable time, but they usually worked with well known recruiting firms like GoodMoves or Bruce Tait.

  38. SickOfBossyBoots*

    How do you deal with ‘bossy boots’ in the workplace in a way that is firm but also still respectful?

    I’m an ‘older’ retail employee (I’m 25 and doing University studies later in life) but easily pass for 18 and look the same age as my colleagues. For some reason, many of them have taken to bossing me around, which I actually find quite insulting given they are on my level and 7 years younger than me (none of them are supervisors in any capacity, just kids wanting to feel important) and the fact they often give orders and then don’t do anything themselves. I don’t want to cause drama in the Workplace, but I’m starting to get incredibly sick of these kids, how can I handle it?

    1. Alison with one L*

      I read this, and I approach it with the opposite perspective from you. I’m significantly younger than most people in my same stage in life and certainly most of my colleagues. When you say that you are “insulted” that these people are giving you “orders”, it comes across that you feel that you’re above these “kids” because you’re older than them. If you’re truly peers at work, then your reaction shouldn’t be impacted by the age of any of your colleagues.

        1. SickOfBossyBoots*

          Plus it’s the fact that these people are not in any way above me at work. Classic case of ‘you’re not in charge of me….stop ordering me around’

      1. SickOfBossyBoots*

        I don’t like being spoken to in a condescending tone by anyone. The fact they’re much younger than me just makes it all the more insulting somehow. It makes me feel like they think I’m particularly ‘useless’ for my age and can’t do anything without guidance even though I can and that I’m not useless.

        1. Alison with one L*

          To me, it sounds like you’re feeling this way. I doubt these coworkers have that attitude about you, especially if you say you look younger than you are. But you need to remember, you have worth just by being you, not to mention you are going back to school. That’s awesome and you’re rocking it.

        2. yup*

          I’d write it off as they may be inexperienced and they may suck at work interpersonal skills. Besides, you have more things going for you than this retail job. I’d just let it be entertaining to you while you’re there (here comes the bossy one! and just smile at them).

        3. Anx*

          I do think you need to treat them like they’re equals (it’s obvious that they are not).

          I have run into some similar issues, mostly with college students. They assume that anyone worth anything will find a professional job right after college (which was right after high school) and look down on anyone who is doing this later in life.

          The biggest challenge for me was not stooping to their level and pulling out the ‘you’ll see one day’ card or anything.

          Two things that helped me with being less annoyed by it was feeling better about myself for not having behaved that way at a similar age (it would drive me nuts when friends talked down about older workers doing the same work we did; I wish I had spoke up) and reminded myself that I don’t necessarily want to be ‘in’ with them in the first place. It’s always good to get along with your coworkers and fit in, but I made sure not to let getting looked down upon by the ‘cool kids’ get to me.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Assuming you already have your own set of assigned tasks, can you just respond with ‘Sorry, [Manager] has already tasked me with doing [x].’ Or even just, ‘Sorry, my plate is already full.’

      You can say it quite sweetly, while reminding them that you have your own responsibilities that are not under their control.

    3. Xarcady*

      If you look the same age as your colleagues, how do they know you are older?

      If you’ve been telling them you are older, why? What were you hoping to accomplish? It could be that they think you are telling them that you are better than them because you are older, and this is the way they have chosen to retaliate.

      If they don’t know how old you are, on the other hand, then they aren’t bossing you around because you are older. They are treating you as the peer you are.

      Watch their interactions with each other. Do they say the same sort of things to each other? Then that is just part of the culture where you are working now.

    4. The Strand*

      They sound childish and insecure. Secure people don’t need to throw their weight around, while insecure blowhards are always trying to test boundaries.

      Be firm, polite and pick your battles.

    5. Shell*

      They’re younger than you age-wise, but are they senior to you work-wise? You said they’re not supervisors, but do they have seniority on you?

      Senior coworkers–by tenure and by title–often have said or unsaid power to delegate to junior employees. If you’re busy with stuff, let them know that, and if they’re particularly snotty you can call them out on that too. But the fact that they’re younger in age doesn’t necessarily mean they can’t tell you what to do.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Retail is a lot of drama.

      You can chose to ignore them.
      You can chose to counter with, “Okay, I will take care of A and you take care of B”. (This one works so well it’s amazing.)
      You can go to the manager and explain that people are giving out orders and you are concerned about it.

      The rest is self-adjustment.
      Every other time you hear a condescending tone, chose to overlook it.
      Decide that as you age, more and more people are going to be younger than you and this is prep for that time.
      Realize that people do not always know how they sound. Matter of fact, we don’t know how we sound to other people. Try to understand that they could be responding to something they perceive in you.

      It could be that this place totally sucks and you just need to get out, that is also a possibility.

    7. BeckyDaTechie*

      “I know how to do my job, thanks,” in a rather bored tone often does the trick with people who are truly inexperienced and don’t realize they sound like a jerk. However, you can only get away with that if you do, in fact, know the task in question to 100% of the manager’s expected level. You might try “I’ve got a handle on it, but if I need help I’ll ask.” By not specifying *who* you intend to ask, you’re leaving the window open to talk to a manger directly and review with her/him what the right way is. I also encouraged my register and floor associates to come to me directly if a non-manager corrected or inserted themselves because I’d rather teach them how to do it right 2-3 times than have 2-3 other people simply teach an associate how to do it wrong in a different way. (Bloody price-tags…)

  39. squids*

    About to give a public presentation about some aspects of my work. Half hour before I head over there. I’ve done this sort of thing before, but it’s always a bit nervewracking. I’m a chronic over-preparer and I am not sufficiently over-prepared for this…

      1. yup*

        +1 for the TED power body language video.

        it actually does kind of work…if you need to psych yourself up

    1. squids*

      All went well — had a full room, and despite a few “I can’t think of the word I want” moments it was overall well received.

  40. MsChanandlerBong*

    Can any of you recommend some good resources (books, workshops, etc.) for someone who wants to be more concise and speak in a more professional manner? My husband is very intelligent, but that often gets lost in the fact that he takes three paragraphs to say what could have been said in two sentences. When we talk to other people, I can sometimes sense them losing interest because it takes him forever to make his point.

    BTW, I’m not some mean wife complaining about her husband; he asked me to post about this because he realizes his current style is detrimental to his professional prospects. He has a bachelor’s degree, but he’s been working low-wage factory jobs since he graduated. I think part of the problem is that he doesn’t give concise answers to interview questions/make a great impression when networking.

    1. Dawn*

      I loved “Mastering Communication at Work” by Becker and Wortmann. It’s aimed at managers in some ways but it helped me understand how people communicate and how people need to be communicated to- and it lays out how to learn how people need to be communicated to. It’s short and simple but extremely useful.

      1. DaBlonde*

        Second the Toastmasters suggestion. They have varied lengths of speeches and a designated timer at each meeting so your husband can practice making his point succinctly.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      See if he can internalize an 8 second rule. I taught myself to speak fairly quickly and concisely in junior high because I had a particularly jokey, talkative group of friends. I was getting frustrated because they would *constantly* interrupt me and each other, but nobody else seemed to notice or care.

      So for a few days, I more or less stopped talking, and started counting when any of them started talking, and took mental note of how long one person could speak before being interrupted by someone else. The mode seemed to be 8 seconds. So, if I didn’t have a thought I could adequately express in 8 seconds, I skipped it. It really helped me take things town to brass tacks and, honestly, I think it still shapes my speaking today.

    3. The Strand*

      Improvement of his writing probably wouldn’t hurt, either.

      Even Twitter, or trying to write haiku poetry is a good way to practice concise communication. (WRT Twitter, w/o the shorthand or cutesy speak, OK, L8er?)

      Sometimes it’s not about speaking more professionally, but knowing your audience. It starts by being a better listener. If you listen better, you pick up the speaking styles and expressions – as well as the ideas – of other people and adjust accordingly. With this person you say, “I feel that…” … while this person over here wants to hear numbers. He may want to think about learning how to read people better. Or he might consider what field he’s in and whether it attracts certain types of communicators. There are fields where his communication style may be valued.

      “Emotional Intelligence” and “You Just Don’t Understand” are two books I’d recommend for him to read.

  41. Shell*

    Posted this in the wrong open thread last week–sorry, Alison!

    Workplace linguistics question: I know the term “secretary” is outdated, and the current term is “administrative assistant”, “office administrator”, and similar. However, I’ve seen people’s backs up over the term “secretary”; is there a particular reason why? It sounds outdated because it is outdated, but I don’t know if there are implications that I’m not aware of. It doesn’t sound any more offensive than, say, “personal assistant”.

    What’s so viscerally annoying about “secretary”?

    1. fposte*

      I’m interested in this too. I personally feel like the annoyance is misplaced and that it’s a tad disrespectful to secretaries, even if you’re young enough that you’ve never encountered secretaries as the term for administrative assistants.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think part of it is that ‘secretary’ is so gendered today, while ‘administrative assistant’ doesn’t have the same baggage. But that’s just me.

    3. some1*

      It’s outdated because back when the term was used, it was almost exclusively women who weren’t seen as educated or skilled.

      I have never heard the term in my working life not used derisively, i.e. the time a high-level can’t believe she was mistaken for “just a secretary”

      1. TheLazyB*

        But secretary can also denote a really high-level position – corporate secretary. Or in the UK senior government ministers are ‘secretary of state’. Maybe that’s why in the UK it’s a muddier picture?

      2. Shell*

        How is that any different from a person saying “just an admin”, though? I think the majority of admins are still women.

        To be clear, I don’t agree with derisiveness towards admins at all. I’m just not seeing how “admin” and its ilk is any better than “secretary”.

        1. yup*

          I dunno I guess “admin” has more of an “I’m in charge” connotation in American parlance in the office environment. Totally agree with previous posters that Secretary is also a top-level title. A Secretary of an agency I worked for before was a 2* (Major General) in the army. Apparently a rank that has you leading upwards of 15,000 people.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        But not using “secretary” for that reason reinforces the whole problem — it signals that there’s something “less than” about the work, so we’re going to use a different word to cover that up.

          1. fposte*

            There’s that great Miss Manners answer to a woman who was tired as being summed up as “just a” secretary–Miss Manners said the questioner should draw herself up proudly and say “Oh, no, you’re mistaken; I started out as ‘just a’ secretary, but now I’m a full secretary.”

      4. fposte*

        Right, but that’s saying something about the high-level person, too, and I doubt she’d have been happier to have been mistaken for an administrative assistant.

        And I was in the workforce when that was the regular term, and it definitely was not limited to women who weren’t educated or skilled.

        1. Cat*

          And tangential, but I don’t actually think high level women are upset about being mistaken for secretaries or administrative assistants because they don’t value that work – or at least, not all of them. It’s because there are still people in the workforce who assume that men are professionals and women are not, and that’s really frustrating. There’s nothing wrong with being an assistant but someone who assumes the woman he’s talking to is an assistant and the man is her boss is being offensive for reasons having nothing to do with the dignity of being an assistant.

    4. MsChanandlerBong*

      I don’t have a problem with the word. In fact, my mother is a medical secretary, her job title is medical secretary, and her name tag says “medical secretary.” If anything, I think people who insist that secretary is a demeaning term are actually being demeaning toward people who still hold the title.

    5. anonima in tejas*

      also, what do you when your coworker’s position title is ____ secretary. Do you ignore it? call them an admin instead? I get dirty looks for doing either or both.

    6. Steve G*

      I may be wrong but I always thought secretary = more writing/typing/note-taking/filing, Admin Assistant is those things but more phone/spreadsheet work

    7. MaryMary*

      Related, can someone help me with the exact iob title for a PA? It’s come up several times on this site when discussing administrative positions.

    8. The Office Admin*

      As an office manager, I would infinitely prefer the term secretary over office manager or office administrator or office assistant or any other politically correct phrase out there, especially because each of those titles has an undercurrent of hiererarchy, pay and status to me.
      And I should add, I’m 26 and female. I see no feminine connotations in the word secretary and find it more annoying and offensive having to explain what my job entails as opposed to just saying: I’m a secretary.
      Speaking of, I’ve applied to two Fed secretary positions over the last couple of weeks and the one I applied to on Monday closes today, you better believe my fingers are crossed!!

    9. The Strand*

      I think that secretary has that connotation of potentially being part of the “typing pool”, floaters who are all at the same level… People do still use the phrase “just a secretary”. Interesting thoughts here as well – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=112496

      Having a title like “medical secretary” or “legal secretary” designates that this is someone with specialist knowledge.

      Administrative assistant, on the other hand, conveys that this person keeps the administration (or administrators) running. It may make it easier for those folks to climb into the management of a business, and to be acknowledged as the people who *run* that business.

      1. Ihmmy*

        ^^ this right here.
        Sadly I don’t even get ‘administrative’ in my official title, I’m a ‘clerical assistant’ but I work in a pretty great environment and have a good amount of autonomy

    10. Sunflower*

      Good question. I’ve always wondered why the term steward or stewardess stopped being used? I’m 26 and only remember them being called ‘flight attendants’. When I heard older people say stewardess I had no idea what it was.

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        It’s because it’s a gendered term. “Flight attendant” is gender neutral.

  42. bad at online naming*

    Anyone have tips or tricks for working closely with someone you just plain dislike, who is also not a high performer?

    I’ve worked not-closely with people I’ve disliked before, and it wasn’t bad at all, but it’s a strain to interact with this person every single day, often multiple times per day.

    Some of this dislike is just, well, I don’t like everyone, and some of it is the experience of repeatedly spending hours/days cleaning up after this person’s incompetence a few months ago – even if partially it was their management’s fault for not training them nearly enough – and some further awkward history.

    My manager knows that I’m not thrilled, but can do nothing.

    But someone else picked up on my dislike without explanation, which clearly means I’m not trying hard enough to get along. Help?

    1. NJ anon*

      I have a really hard time working with people I don’t respect. I don’t have to like them but if they are incompetent, it makes me crazy. I just try to stay professional.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is right on. Find something you both can agree on. Ideally, it should be the work itself.

        I worked with a woman that was the total opposite of me. You name it- if I said day she said night, if I said left she said right. UGH. We worked fine together. Because we both agreed about the work itself. Here’s how bad it was, we could not even take a break together because we had absolutely nothing to say to each other. We had nothing in common.

        Look for things you both agree on, start there.

    2. It's tired, and I'm late*

      Going through this too right now. The person I don’t get along with just sent an email to an external person (copying me) that was full of grammatical errors and typos, and I am unreasonably irked by it.

      What I’ve been trying is to make an effort to recognize things this person does or says that are good. So if they say something in a meeting that makes sense, or do something helpful, or even if I just like their shoes that day, I’ll make a point of thinking “So-and-so did well there”. It’s helping… a little bit. I still don’t trust them as far as I can spit them, but that’s a whole other story.

  43. MK2000*

    Any tips for a potential negotiation? I’ve received notice from the search committee that I’m the candidate they’ve selected for the hire (yay!), and now I’m waiting for the package from HR.

    Relevant details: the job is 20 hours a week, part of a state college system, and it offers benefits. Some salaries are public record but not all, so I can’t tell how much, for example, my supervisor makes because he’s new enough to the job that he’s not in the published data. The job posting listed a salary range spanning $12k (I assume it’s the entire pay band for the job category), the top of which would be absurdly high when you calculate the hourly rate it represents, but the very bottom of which would be too low to accept. I basically have no idea what ballpark salary offer to expect.

    I have more than a decade of experience in higher ed, so I know I could justify my request for negotiation, but I’ve read all of the AAM archives about salary negotiation and don’t want to sound tone-deaf and botch the process. If I feel that the offer is too low, what is a reasonable percentage increase to request? Can one negotiate PTO at a state institution? My last positions were grant-funded so all of that was set. I’d appreciate any feedback from you insightful commenters!

    1. thisisit*

      advice i was given was not to counter with a percentage, but with an actual amount, presumably one that you would then move down from and to your settle point. so if they offer 50K, you counter with 70K because you’d really like 60K. (these are example numbers – you should make the gaps smaller or bigger as you’d like, keeping in mind the pay band).

      also i’ve been told that everything is negotiable, but in practice that’s institution-specific. if they won’t budge on salary, you could always ask if there’s room for negotiation on certain benefits. in which case, be prepared to say what you’d like.

      1. MK2000*

        Thanks for the feedback! I wouldn’t actually say “I want 9% more!” But I’d read a post where commenters were saying that asking for 20% more than the offer (say, asking for $60k after a $50k offer) made the candidate look out of touch. With a half-time salary, it doesn’t take many dollars to reach 15 or 20%, so I was just curious if there was a specific guideline that I should keep in mind so I didn’t look naive or unreasonable.

        1. thisisit*

          well you are working with a specified salary band? so i wouldn’t extend beyond that.

          another thing i was told was to put all your requirements on the table at the same time, and not one by one as they agree to things.

  44. SaraV*

    So I’m going on 3.5 years of being unemployed/underemployed. (1.5 years unemployed, 2 years underemployed) This came about because of moving for my husband’s job without a job lined up for myself.

    I would really like to get back to working a full-time job, but I have to wonder if my underemployment (about 25 hrs/wk on average between two jobs) might be hurting me in some way. Not to mention, my two jobs don’t have very many similarities with what I’d like to do.

    Am I incorrect in thinking this?

    1. Valar M.*

      Depends on your field. I’ve been in the same boat, and have managed to get fully employed again and get offers. It’s very important that you use any time unemployed or underemployed finding ways to stay as involved as possible in your field of choice. Volunteering, participating in groups or conferences, taking classes, and the like. It makes a difference.

      1. yup*

        +1 for volunteering or taking a college class to fill your gap in your hours. 25 hours a week isn’t very much work.

    2. Anx*

      I am in a similar boat, but I have never had full-time permanent employment to begin with.

      I gave up on volunteering after a few years. It was just so expensive. Conferences, classes, etc. all cost money and all ended up being dead ends. If you have the means, it may be worth while. People swear by it. For me, though, it eventually left me more grumpy and defeated.

      I had to let some professional licenses lapse because I never got a job in that field. I ended up going back to school on loans. It may or may not help my employment, but it definitely helped my mental health, even if it’s only temporary.

  45. Sadsack*

    Anyone have any recommendations for improving listening skills?

    At times, I have a difficulty taking verbal instructions. I was recently working on a project in a fast-paced setting where the nature of it required for someone else to tell me what steps to take at certain intervals. He’d give me some instruction, but each time I would forget some small details. It was frustrating for both of us. I asked for feedback after the project was completed. He said that it seemed like, as he was telling me the steps, my mind was already moving to the next step and I wasn’t really focused on what he was asking me to do in the moment. It is very useful for me to know this, but now how do I improve in this area? I have noticed that I do this on other occasions and I really want to improve.

    Thanks for any suggestions!

    1. gloria*

      Can you carry a small notebook + pen with you, and if someone is about to give you instructions take a moment to get it out and say you want to jot some notes down so you can make sure you’ve got all the important detail? I don’t know what degree of fast-paced you’re talking about but if it’s doable, it might help increase your focus and also demonstrate to the person you’re listening to that you are in fact paying attention.

    2. BRR*

      Do you write things down? I used to think I was good with verbal instructions. Key words being used to.

      1. Sadsack*

        BRR and gloria, yes, I normally write things down. But there are moments when that is not possible. Even going from the instruction being given to the act of writing it down, I may miss a detail that seems like I couldn’t possibly forget it. Maybe that answers my own question – write down every single detail. But, there still are times when that won’t happen. I guess I was looking for some online tutorials or discussions, or other exercises to help me learn to retain all details when they are given verbally.

    3. fposte*

      In addition to the writing down, what about asking for a “repeat back” phase, where you repeat what you heard and noted back to make sure you got the steps all down?

      1. yup*

        +1 for writing stuff down and repeating it back to the trainer for verification. This shows them that you’re doing your best to pay attention, even if you won’t get it 100% perfect after the first training. At the end you can quickly re-cap all the stuff you wrote down and if there’s a gap your trainer can fill it in, so that it’s not a problem down the road.

    4. Amber Rose*

      Try repeating them back out loud. It’s easier to remember what you say than hear. Even just whispering under your breath.

      Practice at home too. Listen to like, a youtube instruction video and practice memorizing steps/repeating them back.

      1. Sadsack*

        fposte and Amber Rose, I actually did do that some of the time, but I think my problem is even though i am saying it, my mind is actually on to something else! Maybe I just need to slow down some times.

    5. Florida*

      Join Toastmasters. Toastmasters is designed to improve your public speaking skills, but it will improve your listening skills. In each meeting, you will be assigned a specific role. Most of these roles require you to listen intently. It is a safe environment, where everyone is trying to improve. If you go to one club and you don’t like it, go to another club. Each club has its own personality.

      I cannot say enough good things about Toastmasters, but for me, it improved my listening skills more than my speaking skills.

    6. Nanc*

      As I’m a visual and not an auditory learner, when I’m dealing with a trainer who gives verbal instruction, I record it! Those little mini recorders with built in USB ports are great. Recording on a cell phone might work, too, but my recorder has much better audio playback.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I’m kind of like that; my brain jumps around so much it’s not even funny. I have to take notes. It slows things down, sometimes considerably, but if I do it, then I don’t usually have to ask again. I type up my notes later and if there are any points on which I am unclear, then I go over those.

    8. Anx*

      I wish I did!

      I have a very difficult time with this. I also find that many people are unaware of how difficult it can be to listen to instructions for some people. It makes me feel very dull. Unfortunately, many lower level jobs have a lot of verbal, unstructured instructions. So I am not very good at jobs more people would consider ‘easy.’

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Can you ask him to email it to you, so you can refer back to it?

      When you do the process itself, take an extra minute to ask yourself “did I cover everything here?”.
      I have to go over most of my stuff twice. This is because I am constantly changing what I am doing and I am fighting brain drain. So I check my stuff a second time. My boss thinks I do not make a lot of mistakes…I get discouraged by how much I miss the first time through.

      Let your past mistakes teach you. If you had a problem in the past doing process A where you skipped step 3, make a deliberate effort not to miss step 3 again. Use the memory of the previous mistake to trigger you to do a double check in a similar new task.

      You may need to ask more questions or check in with the boss a little more often. For example, I frequently face new things at work. My chances of missing something are very high. I get the task done as far as I can go, then I check in with the boss. I remind her that I have never done one of these before and have I missed something? Usually what happens next is she realizes BOTH of us have each missed different things. I tweak it, she approves and out it goes. We are both happy that I asked.

      For the most part I am a big fan of memory triggers. When I do form A, I have to do form C also. I have a mental image of A linked to C. This odd type of thinking works for me.

  46. Not Today Satan*

    I had my sales interview yesterday. During the phone screen, they made it seem like there would be no cold calling–but it turns out there’s a LOT of cold calling (and even showing up unannounced). It’s not the job for me. =\

    BUT I also had an interview for a job that I am very, very interested in, and it seemed to go well. Wish me luck.

  47. dawn schafer*

    If I have an outstanding debt on my credit report from my information being fraudulently used 4 years ago (can’t get it removed because by the time I discovered it I had no proof of address), should I tell that in advance to an employer conducting a background check? There are two, one less than $1k and one I think around $3k. Other than that I have no problems (I’ve never actually even had a credit card, and graduated undergrad debt-free). The job is not in finance or any position where I’d be dealing with funds or even have access to them, and I’m not sure they’ll even check the credit on the background check (the interviewer suggested it was for criminal activity) but it does say in the consent form that they might.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Have you written to the credit reference agencies to inform them the information they have about you is incorrect they might be able to help you clean up the problem.

      I’m not sure how these things work in the US but in the UK you have a legal right to add a notice of correction to your credit file, basically it is just a statement from you to explain your position on what happened and it has to be given to anyone who has a copy of your credit report.

      1. fposte*

        In the US, those don’t carry a lot of weight, though; it’s just the word of the creditee about the issue.

        dawn, my inclination is that you’d be better of noting it. Just say you had an identity theft incident four years ago and the damage is reflected on your credit report.

        1. gloria*

          Thank you both for the perspective (and fposte, thank you for reminding me “identity theft” is a phrase that exists)!

          1. dawn schafer*

            oops, that was me – I used a different name for ease of ctrl-F’ing this tonight ///o\\\

  48. epilo*

    I have a question about internships. I am nearly done with a Master’s program in Museum Studies, and in order to graduate I need to do an internship. I am applying for internships in museums, but they are few and far between (the field is totally saturated where I am). In addition, I am beginning to think that rather than museums, where I want to be is urban planning and design, so I’m thinking seriously about architecture.
    I talked to a woman a few days ago who suggested I cold-call architecture and design firms to ask if they would take me on as an intern. Is this a good idea? There are a ton in my area, so it’s feasible that someone would not be put off by being cold-called, but at the same time I hesitate because I have heard that cold-calling is just seen as irritating.

    1. fposte*

      Is there an architecture program at your school? Can you connect with them? (For that matter, isn’t there anybody in the Museum Studies program with some additional assistance on internships?)

    2. Another Museum Person*

      Can you get an internship out of the area you’re in currently? It’s pretty well known if you go to one of the meccas for Museum Studies that coming out you’ll have to move or be highly competitive. There are tons of internships out there in less desired places and plenty more than are unpaid. You can cold call in the museum world. I did it several times early on as many internships aren’t listed so they don’t get flooded with applicants.

      If you’re set on giving up on museum studies, do you have something feasible for turning to architecture? Did you study museum architecture and design? Or urban planning as it relates to museums?

    3. JMW*

      You might also look for local history centers. They deal with many of the same issues as a musuem. Also many art galleries maintain provenance records and preservation. You might put together a list of bullet points regarding what you hope to learn, reasons the organization might like to offer an internship, and what would be required of them (paperwork) to host you.

      1. Nanc*

        I second the historical society suggestion! You could also check with libraries, government offices, non-profit groups, theatre companies, chambers or commerce or any big businesses in your area, you’d be surprised how many groups have in-house historical museums or might be interested in starting one. Our local fire station in my tiny town has a museum in the lobby of station 1 and the tourists love it–great photo ops!

    4. Xarcady*

      Will your school accept an internship that is not in your major field of study? That’d be my first question.

      Second, do you have any background in architecture? If you want an internship, you should have some coursework or skills to make you attractive to the hiring company.

      Third, isn’t there anyone at your school who assists with finding internships?

      But my main concern is that you want an internship for a field in which you have not studied. In the academic circles I’m familiar with, this would not fly.

    5. it happens*

      A number of architecture firms do exhibition design – that might be a good mix for the skills you have learned in school and the work that is in your city (as well as entree into the related field). Maybe do a quick search of the firms in your area to see who does this work. Or, would they accept a retail internship? A lot of the same exhibition skills can be put to use in retail environments. (That might be a little further from museum studies…)

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I’ve seen Anthropolopgie advertise for design interns (they can have some pretty elaborate storefront designs).

  49. Reflection*

    I have a problem with a coworker that I’d love some feedback on. Let’s call him Sam. Sam is a project coordinator at our company and is responsible for a lot of logistics and vendor hiring. The position is pretty critical when we have conferences and events. Sam is known for not doing his job. He often skips out on days his presence is critical. He regularly angers vendors by not responding to time sensitive issues. He overspends his budget. Some days Sam doesn’t even pretend to do his job but spends his time at his desk surfing the web or doing home related projects during work hours. Sam is not remotely apologetic about this and does it blatantly. Normally I’d say this wasn’t my business because those things shouldn’t affect me, and what Sam gets done is Sam’s business. Sam’s boss is well aware of the situation. The boss’s solution to the problem is to at the last minute, distribute Sam’s work around to the other employees in unrelated departments and demand that they get the work done before the deadline. Even going so far as getting angry when other worker’s don’t complete Sam’s tasks or help Sam out. When Sam’s tasks do get completed by other workers, the boss lavishes praise on Sam’s work. It’s hurting the rest of the business as it takes time away from other critical tasks and employee time, punishes other employees for not being able to get their work done because they’re helping Sam, and last but not least of all is killing morale. Any suggestions? Or is it just time to get out of the broken system?

    1. fposte*

      Have you talked to your own manager about this problem? If you have, and no solution’s forthcoming there, I’d say this might be The Way It Is.

      1. Reflection*

        Yes. My own manager ranks somewhere between Sam and Boss and is pretty powerless in the scheme of things. But my manager agrees with me that Sam is detrimental to the organization. The hardest part is Sam is a really likeable guy. The kind of person I would be friends with outside of work. I don’t want to see Sam fired. I just want to see Sam suffer the consequences of his own actions once and awhile or at the very least have the boss or Sam acknowledge all the outside help they are getting. I think the way the boss treats Sam insulates him from it and makes him even less aware than he already is of the problems he causes.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It sounds like a manager who is affected by this needs to either put Sam’s boss on a PIP if they’re high up enough, or talk to whoever is directly over Sam’s boss, because Sam is the immediate problem, but Sam’s boss (SB) is the enabler and the root of the whole issue now. SB obviously knows that there is a problem, and their solution is not working (nor is it appropriate, since presumably other managers don’t want that time taken away from their projects).

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      If his boss knows and doesn’t care, I’d say it’s time to get out of the broken system.

    4. yup*

      I think you’ve just painted a pretty clear picture of what your org’s culture looks like.

      Maybe a paper trail of “can’t get my work done because I’m doing Sam’s work” from a number of employees, showing true and real negative impact to the org’s functioning is the way to go here.

      If that cannot be easily compiled, it’s probably some exagerration happening about how much Sam’s disregard is actually affecting the team.

      1. Reflection*

        Paper trail is a good idea. I think it could be compiled and enough people are fed up that they would participate. I might try that.

        I am sure there is some exaggeration as there usually is when people get irritated with someone like we are with Sam. Sam is definitely the weakest link on this team and majorly affecting everyone with his behavior.

  50. Ann*

    Does anyone have experience with security clearances? I’m in the DC area, and I see so many job ads that require (not prefer) top-secret security clearances. I understand that a clearance is essential for a lot of positions and companies would prefer not to pay for the clearance themselves, but some of these requirements seem odd, especially for entry-level positions. Are there really a lot of people with only a year or two of work experience who have top-secret clearances?

    I haven’t applied for any of these jobs because I obviously don’t have the clearance, but I’m wondering how serious they are about requiring it. Thoughts?

    1. Elkay*

      Are you sure it doesn’t mean that if you get the job you will be required to go through security clearance?

      1. Ann*

        I don’t think so. The ads seem clear to me that you must have a clearance to be considered for the job. Like:

        Requirements:
        Bachelor’s degree in English
        1 to 2 years of experience editing technical documents
        Top-secret clearance

        1. IT Kat*

          Apologies, my below reply was before I saw this one. That does seem very odd. But can it hurt to apply anyway, maybe with a note in your cover letter that while you don’t currently hold a top secret clearance, you will be able to obtain one?

    2. IT Kat*

      Is it worded as being required before applying? Or just as you have to be capable of passing the clearance?

      I’m not in the DC area, but as a federal contractor, I didn’t have one beforehand, and went through the process after selection…

      1. Ann*

        I’ve definitely seen a few that say you must be capable of passing the clearance, but the ones I’m thinking of list the clearance as a requirement to be considered for the position. It’s usually grouped in with the college degree and work experience requirements.

        1. Ineloquent*

          Sometimes them asking whether you’re capable of obtaining a clearance is to find out whether you’re a US national, which may be relevant in certain circumstances (such as for jobs dealing heavily with ITAR material, for example).

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Katie might be able to chime in but I work with a lot of folks in the cleared space. My hubby has one and my employer is talking about getting me one because of the work I do with cyber/DOD related stuff.

      If you are desirable enough then the company will pay for the clearance. However, mid-level and up they actually want you to come with it. Clearances are expensive and time consuming. Several months in some cases.

      For entry level, while they may say it’s required, they may also look at people who are “clearable”. That is you think you don’t have anything in your background that would make you ineligible. That’s definitely a key word to put in a cover letter to get you looked at. It’s not going to hurt to apply to the entry level stuff that requires it, if you are clearable.

      I’m hosting a job fair with the gov’t agency that protects the president on Monday. If you search for that agency name + “mega job fair”, you should find the link to register. It’s open to the public as well as my students and alumni. Hiring managers are present. It might be worth your time. Make sure you bring a federal resume though. The event is about halfway between DC and Baltimore.

      IF you come and ask for the director, you’ll get me and we can have a little AAM meet up!

      1. Ann*

        Yes, I’m leaning toward applying to lower-level stuff that requires the clearance, just because I’m certain that I’m clearable. Thanks!

      2. TL -*

        “several months in some cases”
        An old roommate of mine was on the waiting list for nearly a year; she thought she was going to lose her job because the government was so backed up.

        this was not in DC however.

        1. Ineloquent*

          My sister used to do the very in-depth backround check interviews for clearances. There’s a reason that it takes so long, especially if you’ve lived/worked many places or if you’ve lived overseas.

    4. Fuzzy*

      From my limited DC experience, they do a background check and get you the clearance once you get the job.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        No. If they’re requiring applicants to have a clearance, then you need to have it already.

        This is like hiring lawyers who must have passed the bar. It’s a binary input. You either have it or you don’t.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            You can’t get your own clearance. You have to have a job that requires one and they’ll sponsor you. So unfortunately it becomes a Catch-22. You ultimately have to find a job that will sponsor you for the clearance.

    5. Traveler*

      “Are there really a lot of people with only a year or two of work experience who have top-secret clearances?”

      Veterans, many of them have top secret from their military time but don’t always have a lot of experience in a specific area.

    6. E*

      If you don’t have the clearance but have nothing in your background that would make you ineligible, I’d say apply for positions requiring lower level clearances. It’s hard to go straight to the top secret clearance without some experience working in government with no or low level clearance.

    7. Sarah Nicole*

      Hi, I think I can shed a small amount of light. Most job ads will say whether they expect you to already have a security clearance, or whether you need to be able to get one. If it says they want you to have one, in my experience you need to have it already. I’m in the military part-time and have a security clearance (although not TOP secret), and I could apply for these jobs that require secret.

      The benefit to hiring someone who already has one is that they take a ton of time to get and they’re expensive. Typically current or former military, FBI, other government agency is who they are looking for with these postings. In my experience. Not sure if this is different on the East Coast, but here in California that seems to be the norm.

      1. Ann*

        Thanks! The ads I’m talking about seem clear to me that they require a clearance; I’d say they outnumber the “capable of obtaining clearance” ads almost 10 to 1. I definitely understand why they don’t want to deal with the hassle and expense of getting a clearance for someone, but I kind of wonder how many viable candidates they’re getting when they’re asking for a very high-level clearance but limited amount of work experience (although the military suggestion makes sense).

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Yeah I sort of wonder about that, too. Most jobs I see asking for a clearance only want secret, which means anyone with military experience and an active clearance could apply. I don’t know which types of jobs get up to top secret, but it’s possible that they’d be willing to hire someone like that, but that didn’t have a ton of experience working in the job they’re hiring for. It sort of makes sense – getting a top secret security clearance is way more of a hurdle than training someone to do a job if you hire a person who learns well and has a good work ethic.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          They’re getting enough, or they wouldn’t be doing it this way.

          Quality of the people they’re getting, on the other hand, is a different story…

        3. E*

          As a former HR person who’s filled these positions before, I’d say I received some resumes reflecting a current clearance, but a lot without. Depending on the government agency, getting a new clearance initiated can take longer than desirable for the start date of the job, making it impossible to consider candidates who don’t already have a current clearance.

    8. CanadianUniversityReader*

      I’ve worked entry-level positions where you need higher level security clearance. I was a lifeguard at a military base and I had to go through two background checks to get hired. I don’t remember what the security level clearance was called but I had to fill out some forms that those who need Top Secret clearance level. I think it’s probably pretty important to have the clearance.

    9. Katie the Fed*

      Yes, there are plenty of people with only a year or two of work experience who have top-secret clearances. Many of them are recent military. Some are jumping from other contracts.

      So what’s going on right now is there’s a downward pressure on contracting. Government is trying to save money and contractors are finding demand isn’t what it used to be, so the amount the government is willing to pay is going down. With that means lower wages, which means you’re generally getting less experience – that’s why there are so many openings looking for just a few years of experience.

      But when the companies bid, they are promising the government that they’ll have X number of people ready to go, and they have to keep a certain fill rate for the contract. So they need people who are already cleared so they can move quickly to fill the positions. A clearance can take up to a year – that’s not worth the financial risk.

      If they require a clearance, they are 100% serious that you need it. You won’t get in the door without it.

    10. Nanc*

      Anytime I’ve needed it the potential employer has paid for it–my hire was conditional on passing it. I have no idea how it all works, other than I often got phone calls from friends, neighbors and former coworkers after the fact saying a police detective or FBI had been asking about me.

    11. The IT Manager*

      I’m wondering how serious they are about requiring it.

      They’re probably very serious. It’s expensive and more importantly takes a long time to get a clearance. It sounds like these companies need someone who can start right away so they need someone with a clearance already. Former military and contractors will have a clearance that remains active for a couple of years (I think) after leaving a job requiring it. So they’re looking for these people or people who are presently in a job requiring a clearance.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        You re-up your TS clearance every 5 years, so the number of years depends on how long until that 5 years is up.

    1. Minding your biscuits...*

      I never bring mine, not because it’s skimpy (it’s a one-piece) but just because I don’t want to risk seeing coworkers at the pool. But that’s just me.

    2. Kara Ayako*

      At a conference? If you’re going to the pool/beach on your own time, I don’t see the problem in wearing whatever you’d normally wear. Just be smart about it: don’t wear your badge while sunbathing, wear a coverup while walking through the hotel, try to avoid conference areas when you’re going to and from the pool/beach. Don’t hold meetings at the pool.

    3. Elkay*

      There’s part of me that would love this to turn into “Because our manager thinks it’d be a really good idea for us to have a beauty pageant as part of our teambuilding conference”.

      1. Nanc*

        I would totally do enter this as I have an old-fashioned bathing costume complete with cap, stockings, bathing shoes and parasol! How the hell did women not drown when swimming in 1910?

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Completely fine. I guess I’d default to one-pieces only, but it’s hard to say because I only ever wear one-pieces.

      I always bring my swimsuit when I travel for work. I rarely use it, sadly – both because I’m busy, and because when the end of the day comes around I just want to hide in my room alone. Introverts yay!

  51. De Minimis*

    OK, so now I’m trying to figure out the best time and way to give notice. My wife is halfway across the country and starting her new job soon. I’m here in our mostly empty house trying to get things squared away for its closing in a few weeks. I had thought about trying to keep working here until I found a job long-distance, but I’ve talked to recruiters and even had one interview last weekend at an employer I’d been e-mailing with, and the general consensus seems to be, “Call us when you are here permanently.”

    So I think I may need to bite the bullet and move without a job—but I’m going to need to find something ASAP due to the high cost of living in our new location. There do seem to be plenty of jobs.

    My thinking is, give notice around the time of the house closing, just let them know what’s happened and probably give them a month to at least plan for my departure. Hopefully that will allow me to leave on good terms. I think in a normal job it would for sure, but who knows here….my boss and her husband work in different states and only see each other maybe a few times a month.

    I haven’t decided for sure yet. I would like to build up some leave that would provide somewhat of a financial cushion, but that would involve staying longer. I am supposed to get some kind of awarded leave for performance, so that will help a little bit.

    Thought I would basically portray it as having to leave vs. wanting to leave…guess we’ll see.

    1. De Minimis*

      Or should I give notice sooner and give them more like 5-6 weeks? I think it’s safe to give notice now because the house sale has finally cleared every potential hurdle and the only thing stopping it now would be the buyer just deciding at the last minute to cancel.
      The likelihood of them deciding to let me go immediately is very low to non-existent. It would put them in a huge bind and also they may not be able to at this point, I passed whatever probationary period we had long ago.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        If that awarded leave for performance is very likely, I’d wait until it was actually awarded before giving notice. If possible, that is.

          1. De Minimis*

            Ugh…and I just found out I won’t be able to cash out that leave. Not allowed I guess since it isn’t actually earned leave.

            Oh well, guess I will stick around long enough so that I can at least use it. It can at least save me some money since those days will be fewer nights I have to spend at the motel [going to be living in a motel nearby and then staying at my parents’ on the weekends.]

        1. De Minimis*

          Yeah it’s not that I really am worried too much about them, I’m just trying to figure out what would work best for me as far as leaving, having more money before I go, accruing leave to cash out, etc.

  52. Minding your biscuits...*

    Work attire question:

    I’m on the hunt for some new black leather spring/summer work shoes. For context, I work in a conservative office, though there is a shift towards “smart casual” (whatever that means). I know some workplaces (hospitals, for example) don’t allow open-toed shoes. I would prefer closed toe/wedge style shoes. I don’t like super high heels (like anything over 3 inches) in general. Can anyone recommend a good brand/styles to try? I’m willing to spend up to $100 on them.

    Another related-question – are open-toed shoes really appropriate for most workplaces?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I really like shoes that are sort of ballet flats in shape, but the heel is half an inch or three quarters of an inch rather than totally flat (not kitten heels but a wide heel).

      Personally I hate seeing people’s toes so I’d advise against open toed shoes at work.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      For variety I’d look at Nine West. I love their shoes for work. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a peep toe in the office. Most of my spring/summer shoes are peep toe or full open toe. I’d say that smart casual allows for that. Not a sandal though. Naturalizer might be brand to look at for the lower heel/wedge that you want.

      1. Traveler*

        Seconding Nine West. I have 4 1/2 inch heels that feel like flats from them. They are pretty amazing.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        Ditto. I had 4″ NineWest boots that were so comfy I wore them 2-3 times a week in the winter. They lasted 7 years before I wore a hole in the bottom. Comfortable and sturdy…hmmm…I wonder if they are having a sale now? …please excuse me.

    3. matcha123*

      Have you checked out Timberland? I used to think they only made one style of boot that I didn’t really like, but a few years ago I saw a great pair of boots in a store and since then have bought a few pairs.

      The shoes I have bought have been very comfortable, and depending on when you buy you can find some serious discounts online. In fact, all of the shoes I’ve bought from them have been at least 50% off :)

    4. puddin*

      Earthies, Naturalizer, Aerosoles (but they are mostly not leather), Rockport, and Hush Puppies all get my vote. Like you I prefer a >3 inch heel, prefer wedges, and I really do not like synthetic leather. These brands have enough options for me – I am not a shoe collector though.

      I think open toes are fine, but if your office is conservative I would avoid a totally open shoe – like one strap across the toes and one around the ankle.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Seconding Aerosoles! They’re always super comfortable for me, and have medium heels and a lot of good basics.

    5. Nanc*

      I love Beautifeels but they are over your price point. They do last forever–I have my first pair I bought 20 years ago! They’ve had new heels and new soles put on by my local shoe repair guy but they still look fantastic. Worth every penny.

    6. Sunshine*

      I have also found Clarks to be comfortable, for the most part they majority isnt superstylish but a few of their products fall into trendy/stylish.

    7. YWD*

      I recommend Clark’s. I have a few different styles and colors and have not been disappointed yet. I primarily wear flats or a very low heel.

    8. Sparrow*

      I like Life Stride. Not sure how many leather options they have, but they have a cushioned footbed that is very comfortable. Sofft and Born are also good brands. If you’re shopping online, I like DSW and Zappos. 6pm is also good and has the same brands as Zappos, but lower prices. The only thing with them is that shipping is free, but returns are not.

      I work in IT and my workplace is extremely casual. Some of the mean wear shorts and sneakers in the summer, so open toed shoes would not be an issue. Everyone sits at their desk all day, so there are no safety concerns either.

    9. skyline*

      My experience for work shoes under the $100 mark is that quality varies wildly, even within a brand. I’ve had good luck with Clarks, Naturalizer, and Cobb Hill, but they usually won’t be under $100 unless you find a sale or coupon code. I’ve also had good luck with Cole Haan, but those are even pricier.

      If you specifically want a spring/summer shoe, and are open to D’Orsay styles, you might look at the Clarks Sage Glamour pumps. I tried them recently, though had to return them because the fit wasn’t right for my feet. They have a moderate heel, closed toes and heels, and look relatively formal despite having open sides. They’d be great for a smart casual office, but maybe not a very conservative business office. I was sad to return them.

      (My definition of smart casual: basically business casual, with neat, non-distressed, dark denim being allowed on days other than Friday.)

      Open-toed shoes: depends on your industry and geography. I’ve worked in a lot of places where they were quite common.

  53. Sick of sharing*

    I share an employee with another manager. I’ve been unhappy with this employee’s performance and productivity for months and I’ve documented it. The other manager is happy and says it’d be harder to rehire to find someone who can do both parts of the work well. My own boss won’t get involved. Now what?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I know I tend to get stuck with bad employees until I have overwhelming documentation that they have been spoken to, coached, and performance still hasn’t improved after many, MANY tries. We go the counseling, training, warning, write up, write up a few more times, then eventually fire route. If you have documentation, then you *should* have grounds for some sort of write-up, performance improvement plan, etc…I hope. I don’t know how having another manager involved impacts your ability to coach the performance of this person.

      1. Sick of sharing*

        I think the reason this has dragged out is that my low performance evaluations are neutralized by the other manager’s high performance evaluations (and very public praise) of the employee.

    2. Ama*

      It sounds to me like the current employee is *not* doing both parts of the work well if your half of it isn’t getting done the way you need it to be. I don’t know if making that point to the other manager would help.

      Is there any way you could make the case for splitting the job into two, or is that really not an option?

    3. fposte*

      Can you talk in budget terms? Is the employee 50% theirs, and can you just have them be a 50% time employee for them then? Is there budget for you to hire somebody else and then you can just hold your nose and let Problem Employee get 50% salary for doing nothing?

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I can’t afford to pay for half this employee’s salary and hire a replacement. But I wonder if I can “fire” the employee from my team and budget. That leaves the other manager to figure out how to make it work on their end. Meanwhile, I can reallocate my budget to hire a part-timer, contractor, or even try to make the numbers work for a full-timer.

        1. fposte*

          That’s what I’d try. It’s then your co-manager’s problem to figure out out to retain the employee.

  54. Lyra Belacqua*

    Good news – I have a new job I’m starting in a couple weeks! I was really worried it wouldn’t work out – they at first wanted the position to be a 1099 independent contractor, but how they described it does not work at all with being a 1099. They’re owners of a small business who’ve never hired a full-time employee before. I did some research and talked to an employment lawyer, and stated my concerns, and they agreed to go ahead with it being a W-2 employee position. Yay!

    1. Lyra Belacqua*

      Also meant to add that this means I’ll have to give my boss my resignation – I’ve never resigned from a job before? Any tips? I’m sure he’ll understand – I’m really bored at my job and it’s obviously not a good fit, but I do good work and I think he’ll be bummed.

        1. Lyra Belacqua*

          Yup, I’m planning to today. I think it’ll be a pretty straightforward conversation but I’ve just never done this before.

          1. De Minimis*

            Most of the time it’s not as hard as you think it will be. Sounds like he’s pretty aware that it’s not the right job for you.

    2. Lyra Belacqua*

      Update: I talked to my boss, and all is well. As soon as I asked if he had a few minutes to chat I think he knew. He was very gracious and down-to-earth, which is kind of how he is in general. Whew!

  55. TotesMaGoats*

    I’m so excited for my second round interview this coming Thursday. It’s from 9-1 and I’m meeting with everyone under the sun. It’s heavy but I’m so stoked. Given the length of the interview, the participants and how they bent over backwards to accommodate my hellish schedule…I’m reading a whole lot into it. :)

    Added to that I’ve gotten several comments from coworkers about will I be applying for a newly vacated AVP position. It would be trading one form of crazy for another but it’s nice to know that people want me to take that job because they want me as their boss.

  56. Fuzzy*

    I get to help* pick my next supervisor! I’ve had a great experience with my current one, and I’m wondering:

    1. What’s the best way to thank my current supervisor for being awesome? I’ve already verbally thanked her and mentioned her awesomeness to our mutual boss, but is there a non-weird trinket I can get her? A small plant, a thing of tea, etc? We have gone out drinking as a group before–I can spring for a round?

    2. How have you adjusted to new supervisors? I have *some* say in the hiring process, so I’m sure we’re going to get someone awesome, but is there anything I can do besides keeping up my performance and being clear and communicative?

    3. My department is also getting a college intern. I am 1 year post college, and will have “some” supervisory role. How can I make the lack of age difference un-weird?

    Thnx all :)

    1. khoots*

      Hope to give out some insight as we just had this happen in my office as well.

      1. I got my entire team together and just gave a bottle of wine with a nice thank you note and a Starbucks gift card. That was for her last day and wasn’t anything crazy (think under $30) just a little token to say thank you.

      2. Most important thing to remember is to make sure they will fit with the culture of the team, and realize they won’t always be doing things the way that you’re used to. I like to be up front and honest with what my expectations are of them and want them to be up front and honest about what their expectations are from me. AAM also has a great post about questions to ask when hiring a manager that I used during the interview.

      3. As for the intern if you don’t make it a big deal they won’t either. Go with the flow and relax :)

      1. Fuzzy*

        Thank you for the responses!

        1. The only problem is that she isn’t technically leaving–we borrowed her from her real job for a while, and now she’s going back. Same office, just pulling something off of the job description.

        We all do like wine. That may just be a fun way to celebrate the transition!

  57. matcha123*

    Question :)
    My mom is working at a place where she has to take care of her own taxes (state and federal, they don’t withhold anything). She says she’s only paid for the time she’s in the office, but due to the nature of the work, a lot has to be done outside of “office hours” or appointments in order to keep things running smoothly.

    Has anyone worked in a similar type of setting? Are there any things she should be aware of? She’s been there over a year, but she’s never worked in a place that doesn’t withhold state/federal tax, and neither have I. At least one of her paychecks has bounced due to insufficient funds on their side and it doesn’t sound like the people in charge know much, either.

    1. Malissa*

      Your mother needs to find a new employer.
      They are treating her like a contractor–but is she really? It sounds like she’s doing a t lot of work for free.
      Bouncing checks are a never a good sign for staying.

    2. E*

      Red flags all over on this. She should consider talking to someone at the Dept of Labor to report the issues, or at least make comment to her bosses that her understanding of labor law is that she should be paid for time worked, including time outside of “office hours”, and that the company should pay her taxes to be in compliance. (Just so they don’t get in trouble with the government, don’t you know, wink wink)

      1. yup*

        second. payroll bouncing is a serious issue that violates state and federal laws about timely payment for time worked.

    3. variety*

      She definitely needs to find a new job. As far as taxes go your mother should be filing quarterly estimates to both state and federal. If they aren’t taking out income taxes they probably aren’t paying social security or medicare either. These would also be on your mother to pay and she would need to pay both employee and employer parts.

    4. matcha123*

      Thank you all for the replies. I’ll be passing this information on to her. She is looking for other jobs, hopefully she will have more luck when she gets some needed certifications.

  58. Nani*

    Can someone tell me what we’re legally allowed to do when hiring if we want to increase the racial diversity of our staff? I know we can’t make hiring decisions based on race but are we allowed to consider race when deciding whether to advance someone in our hiring process before the decision stage, like interviewing someone who we normally wouldn’t have interviewed? I’m very on board with the end goal of hiring more diverse employees but uncomfortable with some of the means that my coworkers want to use to get there. What does the law say? What do best practices say?

    1. E*

      My understanding is you are supposed to hire or promote the most qualified person, regardless of race, gender, or other protected characteristics. The best idea I’ve found for increasing racial diversity is to advertise job openings more prominently to related job boards and groups, like women business group job boards for example. Try to increase diversity in your applicant pool.

      1. Nani*

        Yes but what are you allowed to do in all the stages before you make the decision of who to hire? Are you allowed to consider race in who you advance to a first interview or a second interview?

    2. Anon for this*

      I’m actually super curious about this, too. In literally every hiring process I have been a part of (dozens) hiring staff of color has been a clear priority, sometimes in extremely direct ways (e.g. “I want to hire a person of color for this role” to more strategic, e.g. “I won’t move to interviews until 50% of our applicants are of color.”)

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I am not a lawyer, so I’m going to punt on the legal question.

      I don’t think you should interview someone who you don’t think is likely to be successful at the job. It’s just a bad situation for everyone involved. However, I think you need to do some data analysis on the root of the lack of racial diversity on your staff. Are your applicants disproportionately White? Then you’ve got a recruitment issue. Are your candidates of color moving forward in the interview process at a disproportionately low rate? Then you might have a candidate profile or interview process that contains unintended bias. Are you hiring lots of staff of color, then they’re leaving? Then you’ve got to focus on performance management and retention.

      Without tons of info about what the strategies your coworkers are suggesting, it sounds like they’re not being very rigorous in their examination of the problem. If you’re not clear on what, specifically, the problem is, legal or not, you’re not likely to be able to solve it. That’s where I’d start if I were you: asking my colleagues how these solutions specifically get us to the root problem.

      1. Nerdling*

        I agree. The key is to make sure you’re getting more diverse, well-qualified *applicants* and make sure you’re not then hiring only, for example, white women from that diverse pool. Once your pool is diverse and your hiring process isn’t unconsciously biased (or is less so), then the diversity of your workplace should increase naturally over time. And if you’re having a retention problem, then it may not be that you need to hire more minority applicants; you may need to look more closely at your corporate environment and overall retention policies.

        1. Nani*

          Yeah. We’ve tried that. Believe me, we’ve tried that. We’ve done everything we can think of to get more diverse candidates into the pool. It’s not working. That’s why my coworkers are resorting to the stuff I was asking about.

          1. Jillociraptor*

            If you’re unable to recruit a diverse pool, that’s where you should start. Dig more into that — do you have recruiters who are people of color? Do your recruits look at your company’s materials and see all White faces? If you can’t even get people into the pool, I think you probably have some kind of image or narrative problem, either just in terms of what your recruitment process looks like, or more broadly.

            And the thing is, legal or not, your colleagues’ strategy of more aggressively advancing candidates of color through the pool isn’t going to be effective if the root issue is that your company is not as welcoming a place to work for people of color. Maybe you’ll hire more people of color, but retention will be an issue and you’ll continue to see year over year the same demography in your staff.

            If I were you, I would keep pushing back on my colleagues to explore why recruitment is falling short. I’m a little curious about why your company is prioritizing diversity, actually…in my mind it’s absolutely non-negotiable that every workplace make themselves the kind of place where people of color want to work and feel valued, but I also realize that it’s kind of a buzzword and a “cred” thing in some places. Do your colleagues have a real vision for why it matters to have a racially diverse staff? Because if they lack that, or if that vision is “we want our company picture to look diverse,” I can see how everything else is falling through the cracks.

            To be a little more succinct, definitely look into the legal issues here, but I think that’s a much more tangential question because I don’t think this strategy is going to get you what you want even if it is legal.

          2. thisisit*

            are you posting the jobs in places aimed at candidates of color? almost every major discipline has a membership or association of people of color – do you know the one for your field? if not, can you find out? (you could ask at a HBCU for help on that).

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the only fair and legal way to do this is to recruit heavily underrepresented populations to apply. I don’t think there’s anything illegal or unethical about targeting underrepresented populations for the application process. You’re just getting more people in the pipeline.

      Once they’re in the pipeline, though, it gets a bit shadier legally speaking. I don’t know if there are explicit laws about considering race in advancing through different stages in the hiring process. Certainly you can’t make the final hire based on race. I’d love to hear what any HR folks or lawyers have to say about that.

    5. LillianMcGee*

      If you’re in the US, check out eeoc.gov/laws/practices for what you can’t do.

      Here’s something the ACLU adds to their job postings:
      The ACLU of Illinois is an equal opportunity employer. We value a diverse workforce and encourage applications from all qualified individuals without regard to race, color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, age, national origin, marital status, citizenship, disability, and veteran status.

      Maybe all you really can do is encourage people of all backgrounds to apply!

    6. fposte*

      If you’re in the US, do you have a state office that can help, like a commission on diversity or a branch of the EEOC? Might be worth poking around to see.

  59. Algae*

    Well, we’re having a bit of fun here yesterday and today. I work in QA.

    Scheduled audit with customer had just started. Introductions, go over the agenda, that sort of thing had basically concluded when the front desk called.

    Large Government Regulatory Agency was here, ready to do one of their unannounced, comprehensive audits.

    My boss is ready to tear her hair out.

  60. Malissa*

    I’ve had an interesting week . I applied for a job on Sunday and got a request to interview on Monday. This was a job I had been recommended for but wasn’t entirely sure was even open. 30 minutes after I sent my resume in, I got an email asking for an interview. Weird, but hey I’ll roll with it. The interview was a fiasco. Showed upon time, the guy that set it up wasn’t in the building. Interview started 10 minutes late. It was with the Boss and the person currently doing the job. The Boss grilled me for 5 minutes about team work. Then tells me the job is a solitary position. It just gets weirder from there. The person currently doing the job is giving off hints that she really hasn’t been able to keep up or do it well in the past year. She also has the sound of a person who has been defeated by the job. Red flags everywhere. I left there thinking that I really don’t know if I’d take the position if offered.
    On Tuesday I had a way better interview in a different industry. Got turned down Thursday because of a candidate that had industry experience. At least they got back to me…
    Surely something will come together soon. Right?

    1. Dawn*

      Yeah, because when you do interview for Perfect Job, you’ll have already had plenty of interview practice already and you’ll totally NAIL IT! :)

  61. Xandrine*

    I’ve been job searching for over two years now. I just found out that I need knee replacement surgery as soon as possible. My dilemma is this: do I keep applying for jobs, knowing that I’ll be laid up for six to eight weeks, probably with very little advance warning? I can’t promise a specific start date, since (due to insurance reasons) I have no idea when the surgery will happen. This is assuming that I get an offer after stumbling into the interview with a full leg brace and a walker! So, keep on applying, or put it on hold indefinitely?

    1. yup*

      Keep going. We often plan for things to happen at a certain time and it happens later than planned. Plus maybe you could do some part-time telework while you’re laid up. They may appreciate it since they won’t have to pay you benefits :-D (or something such that you can still work while laid up)

    2. The Strand*

      Yes, keep on applying. You don’t know when things will pan together.

      Good wishes for your surgery!

    3. fposte*

      Agreeing, but also wishing you good luck! My colleagues who have had knee replacements say the PT is hard work but the outcome is really worth it.

  62. Lady*

    Wow I am actually up early enough to post! So here is the scoop, I need opinions! I wasn’t sure if I should write this for Fridays Free for all or the weekends, but since it does involve working and the job climate I decided to ask here. Sorry it is long winded:

    My young sister in law did not do well in traditional high school, and wound up quitting school between her junior and senior year (when she turned 18). First she was going to get her GED, but once she realized there was a fee and process etc. she decided against it and enrolled herself in an alternative high school with a flexible schedule, with some idea that she would join the military afterwards. SIL was puts in the minimal effort, earning her a D average “because no one looks at your transcript anyway, and D is a passing grade”. She learned from the school (whom she should have asked in the first place) that she needs at least a C average to graduate, and was very annoyed but started to work on her grades.

    In the meantime she decides she needs “fun” money she takes a part time job at a restaurant. An entire shift of workers is caught stealing and fired on the spot. Because she is there, and not on that shift, and doesn’t steal, she goes from entry level at minimum wage to shift manager at 15.00 an hour in a month and a half on the job.

    The money is good, she has no bills, no obligations and her mom will let her live rent free indefinitely unconditionally. Because she is already 19, the business is not subject child labor laws so they started to schedule her inconveniently, and so now she wants to drop out completely. Based on her experiences so far, she feels she needs neither a GED nor a diploma. She likes to point out that she makes only a dollar less than someone like her brother who has gotten his bachelors and now owes 30,000.

    We are trying to tell her that she is being short sighted, and that if she ever has to quit that job or is fired, that the next job might not be so easy to come by or pay as much. Unfortunately she reads articles which suggest bachelors degrees are useless, and takes that to mean so would be a diploma or GED. Her friends have convinced her she doesn’t need it, and we need someone outside the family to tell her otherwise, because we are just trying to sell fertilizer.

    Is having high school diploma or GED something well – paying employers don’t care about anymore, is it truly not worth the paper it’s printed on? I am “biased” and told her she should finish school, even if it’s only because she can, but according to her it is “just a piece of paper”. My opinion is that lightning probably will not strike twice, and when this business goes under, (it may shortly) she won’t be able to get another decent paying job. Her mom would like her to either graduate or get her GED, but short of threatening to kick her out of the house if she doesn’t (which mom won’t do) mom has no leverage.

    Please, help us make the case either way. She could be finished by August if she enrolls in summer courses, is it a waste of time? Thank you.

    1. E*

      Just from my experience in hiring candidates, a GED or high school diploma is required for our data entry positions. I’ve heard that construction requires a high school diploma to dig ditches (expensive machines don’t get run by just anyone). While her mom can’t make her graduate or get a GED, she can encourage some research, possibly a visit to the unemployment agency or temp agencies to see what options would be available based on her current circumstances compared to having a diploma.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Here’s how you make the case: No school, no free living arrangement. Parenting is the obvious problem here. She will be finished in August. It’s completely ridiculous to not finish, and the mom has the leverage to make her do it.

      I am the mom of someone wrapping up his junior year of high school, and I tend to fall into the sink or swim mindset. Kids this age are old enough to make their own choices, and as long as I’ve done my job to inform him, I’m fine with him making the wrong one.

      From a “case study” POV, my SIL does not have a diploma or GED. She is 42 and has spent life waiting tables and receiving various forms of public assistance. She never has a decent car or place to live for very long and whenever things are good for her, it’s because she’s found a man with a little money to take care of her. Lack of ambition + no credentials is a terrible combination and it sets you up for a crappy life.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (When my kid makes the wrong decision, though, he will no longer be living under my roof spending my money while he does it.)

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I would say that the vast majority of jobs with any sort of career potential, outside of restaurants or similar, are going to require a HS diploma or GED. It’s a gate keeper to the most basic, entry level positions just about anywhere. Plus, if she ever wants to go back to school she’s going to need at least the GED.

    4. matcha123*

      It might be good for her to work and save up money and then when she’s got a good bit saved, finish her education.
      Sure, it’s possible that she lucks out ad has some great paying jobs without a GED. But, the chances are slim. And like the Girl Scout motto says, “Always be prepared.”

    5. Bekx*

      I work in an industry that is considered a trade. The minimum requirement we have is a High School Diploma or a GED for even our lowest on the totem pole employees. If you want to work in the office, most require some college experience.

    6. yup*

      It sounds like she is the kind of person who sees the bare minimum requirements and just does that. She’s not in a place where being in school is going to be useful other than “checking the box.”

      I wholeheartedly agree with AnotherAlison. If she’s earning with the sole intention of spending it all as fun-money (and have all real responsibilities taken care of by someone else), she should probably be kicked out to get her own place soon and pay her own way, or else the cycle of comfort will probably continue for a while.

      When $15.00 an hour no longer looks so attractive and there’s nothing left at the end of a month of bills and rent, she may try and better her life situation by going back to school and fully realizing that school is the means to that.

      Or everything may change when she meets a man (not a boy) and just work itself out.

    7. Creag an Tuire*

      Maybe read those articles yourself? I suspect what they’re actually saying is that a Bach degree is “useless” in distinguishing you from the crowd of applicants, not that you don’t need them anymore.

      Also, this may be a case where the old canard of “you need to have the Right Words in your resume to get past the resume-screening robots” could actually be useful.

      1. Lady*

        You are preaching to the choir. She has never read an article on the matter in her life, she just sees that I am working for wages similar to hers, but with crushing debt, so she doesn’t see the point. She deliberately misinterpreting the things she hears when she fights with her mom, and mom, who retired from working over 25 years ago to be a stay at home mom doesn’t have much ammo at her disposal.

        I also agree with you about the “Right Words”. The problem is for my SIL, the words she is listens to come from her friends who have it sweet now that one of them has a car and perpetual gas money. She is free, those are people she wants to hang out with, so why would she stay home and study?

    8. Elizabeth West*

      She’s too close NOT to finish, and every single job I’ve ever applied for wants you to have a high school diploma or GED. If she leaves school and doesn’t have one, she’s likely screwed whether she goes to college or not.

      It’s just a few more months–she can do it.

      1. Elsajeni*

        It also might become a lot harder or more expensive for her to get her diploma or GED after a certain point — most alternative high schools won’t enroll anyone over a certain age, credits she’s already earned might expire, etc. This might not carry a lot of water with her if she doesn’t see any value in getting the diploma, but if she’s at all thinking in terms of “Whatever, I can go back and finish later if I decide it’s worth it,” looking into the options that are available to her now vs. what would be available to her when she’s, say, over 25 might motivate her toward doing it sooner rather than later.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Good point–there are adult GED programs, but it’s even harder to do that when you’re working full time and paying rent, taking care of your own household, worrying about bills, etc. Right now, living at her mum’s, she doesn’t have to do that.

        2. The Strand*

          Oh yes. If she thinks it’s tough now, try going to school while you’re raising kids!

    9. The Strand*

      I hate to say this, but sometimes people have to make their own mistakes.

      A childhood friend of mine was in a field that was rapidly going in the crapper a few years ago. She had no college degree, and our hometown has one of the highest ratios of college-educated people in the US. Without being too specific, it was pretty obvious that her company was going the way of the dinosaurs. She has never wanted to live anywhere but our hometown.

      I suggested she might consider going back to school, just in case, to get that bachelor’s. (In our hometown there are many people with bachelor’s who are underemployed. The labor pool is skewed big time.) Community college is cheap; then you transfer. She told me she was too weirded out by being ten years older than the average college student, and was fine where she was. She was still doing the same job she’d done ten years earlier and resisted attempts to move her into management. Fair enough – not everyone is ambitious.

      Well, she got laid off. She had to downsize her whole lifestyle. Now she’s going to school (and is 15+ years older than the average student), making slightly better than minimum wage, and complaining. But you know what? She had to figure that out on her own. No one was going to convince her of anything. She sought out resources that affirmed what she already believed, too.

      Yup has a really good point here. She’s not feeling the full ramification of her decision. Momma doesn’t have to throw her out, but just ask that she start paying rent, utilities, and for food.

      1. Lady*

        Mom asks absolutely nothing of her because she is terrified that if she pushes too hard she will just move in with her boyfriend (who has no rules and who has already offered), and return pregnant. Mom can’t afford that, so she is trying to appeal to her sensibilities “as an adult.”

        In my opinion, if this is what is going to happen, it’s going to happen anyway and these tactics are about as effective as “talking” an escaped wolverine back into its cage. My husband and I agree she needs to bring out the big guns and actually start treating her “as an adult” with obligations to pay rent etc, but chances are slim it will happen. It’s bunk, but talking is the only thing Mom will allow.

        I just wanted make sure I wasn’t somehow out of touch and being stubborn about my position.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          That is too bad. Your mom is making matters worse here. You may need to take a step back because this is mostly between the two of them.
          Yes, she does need a high school diploma. There is nothing wrong with saying that. When she compares her setting to yours, remind her that this is temporary. Remind her that you are working on goals and your setting will change in the future. Then make sure you are working on your goals and not getting caught up in this. I find that situations like this take up huge amounts of time and energy. And in the end it’s for nothing, because the person does as they wish anyway. If it were me, I would use this real life story to push myself along and make sure that I am working on my own stuff.

          And for your mom, she can either tell Sis NO now or later. She can say it now when there is no baby or she can be forced to say it later when there is one and she can’t afford to help. Ugh.

          1. Lady*

            Thank you Not So New Reader. I apologize for the confusion about “Mom”, who is technically my Mother in Law. Unfortunately this has been going on for months. The larger picture is that widowed Mom may lose a portion of benefits if daughter does not remain enrolled in school; if this happens, we might have to kick in to keep Mom afloat. One would think this would be dire enough to take some action, but things are at a complete standstill.

            More tragically in the not so recent past, one of my brothers in law dropped out, and vanished without a cent to his name. Every once in a while people show up at the house looking for him (Mom calls the police), and things disappear from the yard all the time. Right or wrong Mom blames herself for being too strict “and driving him away.” She is terrified of pushing her other kids out of the house.

            Obviously we don’t want that to happen either, but you are right about having only so much energy to deal with stuff like this.

    10. Cordelia Naismith*

      Employers do care about high school diplomas, but sometimes you have to let people make their own life mistakes, you know? But if she’s still living at home and has no expenses, she probably doesn’t have a real understanding of how much (or how little) money $15/hour really is, and therefore has no motivation to do anything else. Mom should at least insist that Daughter pay her rent — and she should charge whatever the going rate is in that area. This might make the reality of her situation a little clearer to her…or at least be an encouragement to leave the nest and try to make it on her own! It might take a few years for her to mature enough to be ready to make a commitment to going back to school — or she might decide she likes her life the way it is. Either way, it’s ultimately her decision.

    11. Anx*

      I think that a GED or HS diploma is very valuable. I agree that this situation won’t last forever and that she probably needs to get one. But work experience is also very valuable. FWIW, she makes more than I do, and I have a B.S. Most importantly, she has a job.

      I’m not sure I’d be able to walk away from a job, especially one that pays so well and has promoted me. If she’s making more money now, could she put some of the money she is making aside and do her GED instead of a high school diploma? That could maybe let her build up some work experience while studying on her own time. Have you seen instances in which she shows more motivation than she does toward her schooling? That may make a difference into what is the best path for her.

      Could there be a situation where she keeps her job as it is, and makes a commitment to do the GED? Perhaps within 1 year, or within 6 months of losing her current job if she does? Perhaps you could look into when she would no longer qualify for job corps or alternative high school.

      1. Lady*

        Thank you for responding Anx. What we are attempting to do at the moment is what you are suggesting.

        In the state she lives in, her school has to sign off on papers explaining why getting a traditional diploma is less suited to her needs than getting her GED, and she won’t take the trouble to do this, schedule the test, or pay the fee. This is actually what she wanted to do before she realized it was more than just showing up at the testing center at her leisure. When she found her alternative high school it was much less work to enroll, so she did that instead.

        For background, this high school is incredibly flexible; she meets one on one with a teacher for an hour each week, and there is a resource center onsite where she can just walk in anytime on Weekdays and Saturday mornings if she needs extra help. Her class assignments are done online at her leisure.

        Though she only has to be at an actual location once a week, she always claims a schedule conflict with work. Her Mom tried to reason with her restaurant manager, that her daughter is a student and needs time to study, but now that SIL is age of majority, they are not subject to child labor laws and hour restrictions. The restaurant’s attitude is that they have business needs, and if the schedule she is assigned doesn’t work for her, then that is not their problem.

        Unfortunately I didn’t have much time writing my original post, so I didn’t make it clear that my SIL feels she is being faced with a choice of risking her job to get her Diploma, or keeping her $15 dollar an hour job and dropping/failing out of school. That said I honestly wouldn’t have such a problem with her delaying school for a bit if there was a promise of return and she was using this job to save for college (or something regarding her future), but that is not what is happening. The going is good and she is counting on it being that way forever so she just spends it on “stuff”, and is at the moment refusing to commit to anything.

        1. Anx*

          That’s so frustrating!

          It sounds like she has a really great opportunity here to enjoy having a job AND working on getting her degree in case she wants to or has to move on in the future, but isn’t taking advantage of it.

          I don’t think the biggest issue here is whether a job or a GED/HSD is more important. It seems like the issue is one of motivation and responsibility.

    12. AndersonDarling*

      My hubby was stuck on the same path. He worked in restaurants since he was 14 and didn’t need a GED. But in the last few years, you needed a GED to get good paying restaurant gigs. There are some jobs that don’t require anything, and he ended up working with felons and being treated like crap because the managers know you can’t find a job anywhere else.
      He had 24 YEARS of experience managing, serving, bouncing, and cooking, but couldn’t get a decent job without the GED. When he was young, he would come home with pockets full of tips and he felt rich. But restaurant wages don’t stretch that far when you have rent, bills, and a busted up car. So at 36 he got his GED, went to trade school, learned a skill, and got a certificate.
      If your sister is making $15 an hour, she is super lucky. Ding dang, super lucky. But what will she do in 10 years when she is still making the same $15 an hour. Because one person hired her without a GED doesn’t mean that anyone else will.
      If my husband could go back, he would tell himself to get the GED while he was still young and had the time. Working restaurants is hard, stressful work and you can’t do it forever.

      1. Annaliese*

        True for all values of true. I do have to ask, though – has anyone explored exactly *why* her high school experience was so awful she quit with only a year to go? While I can’t say for certain, is there a possibility she has a learning disability? Was she being bullied to the point where the whole educational process was contaminated by it? This situation sounds like she was working hard to protect herself against something. This might require some digging. There were more than a few occasions when I would have bailed on high school, if it had been a real option for me.

    13. Dynamic Beige*

      Just as a question: has she been tested for learning disabilities? I’m not saying that school is the answer for everyone, but if she’s got dyslexia or something that’s making it harder for her to achieve, it’s no wonder that she’s not interested. And to a certain extent, she may be right. If she has trouble with school/learning and a bachelor’s is no longer a guarantee of a job that it once was and she prefers a job where she can move around… there’s always the trades — whether that’s being an electrician, a plumber, a hair stylist, a mechanic. That may be more interesting to her than the traditional white collar world.

      Otherwise, what are the other adults in her life like? If her parents are doing well without degrees, she may have a skewed idea about what work is like. Definitely the money she earns at her job should be put towards rent, if everything she takes home she just gets to blow through, she’s not experiencing what it means to be responsible. Her mother may be happy to have her kid around forever… but Momma ain’t gonna live forever.

      Also, I have no idea what the requirements are to get into the military. It may not be necessary to have a high school diploma or GED if you want to be enlisted, but if you want to be an officer? If you want to go into a specialised branch of service? There might be some reason why having that paper is worth it if the military is something she definitely wants to pursue.

    14. thisisit*

      have 3 friends who had kids before they finished high school, and dropped out. All ended up finishing within a few years or getting a GED. All have managed to get really great and well-paying jobs (with additional education/training) but everything has required the diploma/GED. i just don’t know how you can progress without it?

      honestly, mom should charge rent and maybe half of groceries. she needs to learn what things cost.

  63. LV Ladybug*

    Crazy things while interviewing new applicants. I have recently been interviewing for entry level positions and I worry about how much worse it is going to get.
    First, the ad we had posted said to please email your resume. I would get emails that stated “I really want this job. Please call me.” And no resume.
    * Someone sent a picture of their resume as an attachment… like a picture they took with their phone.
    * Someone called after being a couple minutes late for an interview saying that they were lost but will be here soon. No problem. A few more minutes go by, she still isn’t here. I receive another call. She tells me she is down the street, and I give her simple directions from where she was… never showed.
    * Most of the resumes had high school information from 10+ years ago.
    * I most likely wasted an entire ream of paper because most of the resumes weren’t formatted correctly and were 5 pages long.
    * One of my interviewees stated that she was a workaholic, and when she wasn’t working she contemplated suicide. NEXT!
    * One lady who came in was dressed in a lace top and 5″+ heels, one of my coworkers asked the receptionist if I had a hooker in my office.
    I just wanted to respond to each person with a link to AAM and tell them to try again.

    What are some crazy things you get when you hire?

    1. Minding your biscuits...*

      1. I once interviewed a guy for an internship. I was the last person he was scheduled to meet with and the interview was supposed to last for 30 minutes. He would not shut up. It ended up lasting for almost two hours. I tried EVERYTHING – verbal and nonverbal cues (standing up, attempting to walk him out of my office) and he still kept talking. I finally had to tell him I had another appointment, walked over to him, and literally guided him out of my office. He was a sharp guy and qualified but we did not hire him.

      2. I was interviewing another guy for an internship and he ended up asking me on a date at the end of the interview. It turns out that he flirted with the other women who interviewed him as well. It was hilarious. And no, he didn’t get hired either.

      1. Minding your biscuits...*

        Just thought of another one…

        When this happened, I worked a marketing company. It’s been several years ago now. We had posted an ad for an entry-level position and asked the applicants to make themselves stand out. One applicant made a six-foot-tall cutout of themselves, broke into our building early one morning (no, really) and put it near the elevator with copies of their resume, so that every employee would see it when they came in to work that day. It got our attention but it was man – was it ever creepy.

        Another applicant sent a monsterous sheet cake with their resume (in frosting) written on it. Of course, we dug into the cake as soon as we saw it. The applicant never followed up with email with their contact information, resume, etc. so we never did figure out who sent the cake. It’s a shame because if I remember correctly, the person was pretty qualified for the job. The cake was professionally made from a well-known bakery in our area, so I’m sure it cost them some $$.

        As luck turns out, we ended up hiring a guy that was friends with a coworker. He didn’t do anything “creative” except sending in his resume.

        Never again did we post an ad like that.

        1. yup*

          I love the cake story.

          “Well we would have read your resume and called you back but we were too busy eating it”

        2. Steve G*

          I still don’t know what marketing/ad type jobs mean when they said “include something interesting about yourself” or “what makes you stand out” or something like that in the application. Everything “interesting” about me is already on my resume.

            1. Sunflower*

              Ha I think that’s why the post ended with ‘Never again did we post an ad like that’

    2. AnotherAlison*

      This is fascinating for me. I have no crazy stories like that from my job. (My “crazy” interviewees are more like entry-level candidates who want to be in management in a year or two, which isn’t really how it works in my industry.)

    3. LadyTL*

      Just wondering why the high school information is classed as a weird thing. Is it an age thing or something else?

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        I think when high school is more than 10 years in your past, it’s pretty irrelevant.

        1. Cordelia Naismith*

          Yeah — as soon as you have college experience to put on a resume, take off the high school stuff. Nobody cares.

    4. Creag an Tuire*

      “One of my interviewees stated that she was a workaholic, and when she wasn’t working she contemplated suicide.”

      :: blinks ::

      I’d have responded to that with the number of the Suicide Hotline.

      1. Sunflower*

        I think the person was trying to say ‘i’m a dedicated worker’ but man did that come out the wrong way

    5. Tris Prior*

      I think my favorite was the person who submitted sexually explicit poetry for the required writing sample.

      1. A different handle today!*

        Oh, you’ve gotten that sample too? Was it the one about Regina and her, well, you know, the body part that rhymes with Regina if you pronounce the I in Regina as a long I?

    6. LillianMcGee*

      Not wacky but I had one young woman interviewing for an internship with me who could not form a coherent sentence in the interview. It was 100% word salad. I felt so sorry for her! I try my best to make intern interviews relaxed and informal (because who wants to put the screws to an unpaid intern!?) but she must have been all nerves. I ended up not hiring her, and I reported the reason back to the school in the hopes that they’d address it with her and refer her to someone who could help her build interviewing skills. :(

    7. NJ anon*

      I just don’t get it. I was recently hiring and received the worst resumes! One had no name on it, another couple had no address. The font for the name on another took up at least an eighth of the page! Overqualified (CPA applying for a part-time bookkeeping job), under qualified, it goes on and on. Actually had resumes from Texas and Virginia with no mention of relocation.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          I totally just did this recently by accident. I was changing some of the details on my resume and accidentally deleted the header and didn’t even notice (until a few days later when I had to print it for something!) I was so mortified! haha

    8. Today's anon*

      Someone I interviewed spent the first 10 minutes after introductions telling me how he still was hungover from this wild party he had gone the night before and he couldn’t wait for the weekend…

    9. The Strand*

      I was hiring interns for a women’s organization.

      I received “Dear Sirs” emails and letters. More than one.

    10. Anx*

      * One of my interviewees stated that she was a workaholic, and when she wasn’t working she contemplated suicide. NEXT!

      While this is definitely inappropriate for an interview (enough to remove a candidate from consideration), I wouldn’t judge the actual thoughts. It’s incredibly difficult to keep up mental health when unemployed (at least in a country like the US). While I’ve never contemplated suicide, I’ve wondered where I fit into society since I couldn’t find a job. It’s incredibly demoralizing and takes a major toll on your self-esteem and self-worth. I wouldn’t judge for feeling suicidal if they aren’t able to find a job.

    11. Windchime*

      We once got a resume from the county jail, on notebook paper and in pencil. The person was not even remotely qualified, but I had to give him points for putting himself out there.

    12. BeckyDaTechie*

      When asked if a candidate would take a full-time position if I was able to offer it, he replied “I don’t want to work full time because then we don’t get as much SNAP and I lose out on time to work on my car.”

      Well okay then.

  64. katamia*

    I have a Skype interview coming up, and I have a couple Skype/webcam interview questions I was hoping people could weigh in on. Has the debate over where to look (at the screen so it feels like you’re making eye contact or at the camera so they can make eye contact with you) ever been settled? Thoughts? Also, I think I’m going to want to take some notes during the interview. In a face-to-face interview I’d have paper and a pen, of course, but I’d really rather take notes on my laptop as we go (which is also what I’ll be interviewing on). Will typing as the interviewer talks make me look less engaged, or is it worse to look away and scribble something on a piece of paper by the computer?

    1. Lila*

      I do a lot of video conferencing for my side job, editing papers, and I think looking at the camera is more important. Obviously don’t stare them down but it loose more engaged. As for notes, I think whichever you are more comfortable with is fine.

    2. fposte*

      I think if you’re the interviewee, you want to look at the camera. I’m a little wary about the typing notes while you talk–can you try a test with a friend to see how it looks and sounds when she does it and whether it makes the camera move at all? I’d say unless it’s silent and invisible, stick to pen and paper.

      1. Mints*

        I think the pen and paper will look less weird too, if you set up the computer a bit far from you. Like at a kitchen table, across the table, so it mimics the normal distance.

        Also, I think I saw this advice here — googly eyes on top of you camera to help look a little more smiley when starting at the camera. I love that idea!

      2. katamia*

        Thanks. Yeah, I know people can hear me type when I use the webcam. :( Too bad because I was hoping to not have to decipher my horrible handwriting, lol.

    3. BRR*

      If you’re the applicant look at the camera. I also strongly guess it will look bad to take notes on your laptop.

      There’s an article on here about Skype interview tips. If I wasn’t on my phone I would link to it.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’d do a test Skype call to make sure that your microphone won’t pick up the typing noise– that’s my major concern.

      1. katamia*

        Yeah, I know from past webcam usage that it does, unfortunately. I didn’t think of that and was hoping to avoid having to write because my handwriting is so bad, but I guess pen and paper it is.

    5. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      I’ve interviewed 5 candidates via Skype/Google Hangouts over the last week or so. As the interviewer, honestly I haven’t even noticed where the candidates were looking. It hadn’t occurred to me to take note of that until I read your question, and I’m straining to remember where they each looked. I think maybe it was a mix between the camera and my image on the screen?

      For note-taking, also not a big deal. Most candidates haven’t taken notes- but those that have use pen/paper. It’s not awkward or disruptive for me to watch them jot down answers to their questions- totally fine as long as they’re not writing paragraphs. (Typing on the other hand would be loud and more awkward because then they’d definitely not be looking at me. )

      More than where you’re looking, what’s important to me is:
      – You’ve chosen a well lit, quiet place where you won’t be interrupted
      – You’ve looked at whatever is behind you to be sure it isn’t distracting. (If there’s a nice shelf showcasing your liquor bottles behind you- move them out of the frame, please!)
      – You dial-in to the meeting on time
      – You dress like you’re being interviewed (not as nice as in-person, but business casual for sure)
      – You’re your relaxed self as much as possible– I love to see a bit of your personality- which is partly why we do skype interviews :) I want it to be a conversation, not a one-sided quiz.

      Hope that helps. Best of luck, knock ’em dead!

  65. Lila*

    Can anyone recommend good books along the vein of “You Don’t Need a Title to be a Leader” that would assist with developing peer leadership and career skills? I am entering my second year at my job after a huge internal promotion (bottom of the totem pole in yn new department though) and while I’m not ready to pursue further promotions I would like to learn more skills and how to better navigate corporate politics etc. Thanks!

    1. AB Normal*

      How to be a Star at Work — excellent book based on 10 years of research by a professor from Carnegie Mellon.

  66. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    Late to the thread but I just need to get this out whether someone sees this or not. I was promoted to manager a few months back for a new group at my company. It was sort of a “hostile takeover” of an old group and everyone in the old group was angry about it for various reasons (losing their old manager, none of them being promoted up to manager instead of bringing me in). This resulted in their feelings being taken out on me. I’ve never managed anyone before, or even supervised for that matter, so I was very underprepared for this. My manager works remotely and while he was aware of the issues, there really wasn’t much he could do while he was out of the office. Without going too into detail, things continued to get much, much worse and while I really wanted to quit, I didn’t. I just told my manager that I didn’t want to manage this group anymore. He asked me to stay on to work with him on special projects, still a part of the group. I agreed, thinking that I could at least hang in there until I found something else.

    This whole situation makes me feel awful. I thought that stepping away from managing would help things but it really hasn’t. Everyone seems very angry that I’m still around. I want to quit so badly. It’s taking a serious mental and emotional toll on me. I have never had personality issues or work ethic issues at work but both are being called into question by my new co-workers and I’m at such a loss on how to handle.

    I’m not sure that I really have a question here but if anyone has any advice for sticking things out when you are feeling close to a mental breakdown, I would appreciate it. I haven’t been able to find a therapist nearby who is available late enough to go after work. I feel like I’m just looking for “permission” to quit but being unemployed and not eligible for unemployment is scary, no matter how much money I have saved it seems. I have a good support system in my boyfriend (he wants me to quit and focus full time on finding something new. we work at the same company so he knows what is going on) and my parents but it’s all getting to be too much.

    1. JMW*

      Wow. You were hired for a position (management) that you did not have experience for, put in a hostile situation, and then left unsupported. No one would blame you for quitting. However, if you decide to stick it out, maybe try to identify something you want to learn from this, and focus on that. For example, most of us need practice with creating and negotiating boundaries, so you might choose someone in the group that you could practice that with. Or you could identify one management or leadership skill that you would like to get better it, like active listening or communication in writing or consensus-making or one-on-ones. Just pick one thing to get better at, so this won’t feel like a loss to you.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        I really appreciate your comment. I was so excited to be promoted into a management position but, without trying to sound like a victim, I definitely feel like I was set up to fail with this particular situation.

        Your idea of pinpointing specific skills or lessons I can take/work on is very helpful. Sometimes I feel so consumed by the drama going on around me that it is difficult to focus on the actual work. I think that finding a particular idea or skill-set I can work on is a wonderful idea and I will spend some time today brainstorming on the things I can learn for myself to keep going as long as I can.

    2. bassclefchick*

      First, I’d like to say (as a child of the 80’s) – LOVE your user name!!! Made me giggle!
      I would say that depending on your state, you MAY be eligible for unemployment if you quit. In my state, if you quit and have a really good reason (as you certainly do) they will most likely grant you benefits. But I would certainly try to talk with the unemployment office before you quit just to make sure.
      As for tips for getting through the day – I don’t really have very many suggestions, but just try to remember this mess was not your fault. Try to realize that the team is mad at the situation and although they are taking it out on you, you did nothing wrong by taking the position.
      And, I’m pretty sure there was a reason no one on that team was promoted to manager, right?

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Haha, thanks! That brightens my day just knowing someone likes my username:)

        While you certainly make a good point in saying that i should check it out, from what I have read about my state, I would not be eligible for unemployment. I will certainly consider looking more into that though.

        I am trying hard not to take this all personally but some days are better than others. And yes, you are right regarding the comment about no one else on the team being promoted up. I’ll try to keep that in mind. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. Sometimes there isn’t an immediate solution to a problem but feeling supported and understood goes a long way!

        1. bassclefchick*

          You’re welcome! I’ve been promoted too fast for my skill set. It wasn’t a great fit for me at all. So although I don’t have any practical suggestions, I do relate to what you’re going through!
          I guess what I would suggest though is to make sure that you’re taking care of yourself on your off hours. That could be anything from binge watching your favorite TV show, reading your favorite books or just getting outside for some fresh air now that it’s nice outside.

    3. Windchime*

      I’ve been in a similar situation where I had hostile coworkers and the work was high-volume, difficult and nearly impossible to do under the circumstances. I had to take some FMLA time off for stress and ultimately left the company. Years later, the train wreck of poor management, mean coworkers, and management who is unable to focus on a decision for more than a week continues.

      Can you make time for doctor’s appointments during the day to see a counselor? That is a perfectly acceptable use of your sick leave and it sounds like you could sure use the support.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        This is actually a great idea regarding the counseling. I would likely only need to use an hour or two every session and I certainly have a lot of sick time saved up. And if it was scheduled in advance, I think it would be easier for me to leave early on those days. Thank you for that suggestion.

  67. regina phalange*

    Is there a polite way to respond to a recruiter on LinkedIn who has obviously not read your profile OR your response? I was contacted about an entry level position across the country. I politely responded saying I was not interested in relocating. They responded and gave me a choice of two other cities to move to. It’s so frustrating when recruiters clearly do not read either your profile or your response. It wasn’t like I singled out the original city, I said I didn’t want to move, period, so why she felt the need to follow up is baffling, especially because this job is entry level and I’m far outside that. So frustrating!!! Maybe I should just get over it, but things like this annoy me. If their job is to recruit, they should work harder to pay attention to details!!

    1. shirley*

      I suppose recruiters probably think it doesn’t hurt to ask. I think it’s a numbers game for them. I only really get annoyed when they get snippy back at me like, “Ok well I think you are missing a big opportunity and I’d hate to see you burn this bridge.” That was an actual line from a recruiter email!!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve run into this a bit lately. Isn’t it so weird to feel so rude for saying to someone, “There is no world in which I would be right for the job you’re advertising!”

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Heh, my understanding was that you can feel free to ignore recruiters like that as much as you want. (Assuming you’re not actively looking for a new job, that is.)

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t think you were contacted by a recruiter, it was a used car salesman in sheep’s clothing. Its just a salesman assuming that if he sends hundreds of random hooks then someone will bite.

    5. Clever Name*

      I had a couple of back and forth messages with a recruiter. He didn’t accept my polite way of saying no (happy in my current position). It finally ended with me telling him that I was unwilling to work for a company in his industry for personal reasons. (It’s an industry many regard as “the bad guy”). So that was fun. :/

    6. Nicole*

      Lately I’ve been getting emails from recruiters for jobs for which I’m not remotely qualified. I’m not actively looking for a new job either. I’ve never worked with these recruiters so I just ignore them and delete the email. I don’t think there’s any harm in that and you avoid wasting your own time and getting frustrated.

  68. TheLazyB*

    I wanted to celebrate a bit. I recently took voluntary redundancy after7.5 years in my job. I’ve only applied for three jobs and have been offered two of them! I didn’t think I interviewed really well for either of them, but apparently both interviews were really strong.

    So, yay me :)

    1. Sunflower*

      This is the second mention of voluntary redundancy I’ve seen on this week’s thread and I have no idea what it is! Please explain? Where do you live? Is it common? What is it??

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        It’s a UK thing, I think. I think it means the company is going to need to lay people off, but they ask for volunteers first. I think.

      2. TheLazyB*

        Haha was I the first person to mention it too?!

        It’s voluntarily being laid off, I guess. Our company has been sold to the private sector and needed to reduce the staff complement, so they gave people in certain business areas the chance to apply to leave for a payoff. I was successful.

  69. Gallstones and Job Hunting?*

    I wrote in a while ago about my nervousness about getting the surgery itself. There are still more tests, but what about job hunting while all of this is going on? I’ve postponed haranguing my Dr’s office to take care of the paperwork, because I am going on an already-paid-for trip. But when I get back- haranguing and tests, and… job hunting?

    I’m near the end of my savings and need to find something soon. Should I be looking for temp work, a career job (which was my original plan before this started), wait until after the surgery, or once I have a timeline? I get jaundiced and excessively fatigued (when the ducts get blocked, for those who know about this), so there’s that. I’ve been looking at remote partially for that reason. (Also, because I believe I work well remotely and I enjoy it).

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Once you get the surgery, you should be able to work a desk job after a week and a half. More recovery=better, but I wouldn’t postpone looking simply because you think you will need ~ 6 weeks off after. My manager just had her gall bladder removed. She had the surgery on Thursday and came back Wednesday, which was what her doctor told her would be fine. She thought she should have taken a couple more days. YMMV.

    2. yup*

      There’s another poster in this thread asking about job hunting when she needs a surgery in the near future. My advice is the same—keep looking! And when that opportunity comes be honest and genuine about it. A really great job will appreciate having a heads up about your situation so that they can make the best informed decision while you would be away.

      Sorry that medical things get in the way. However, I still think being upfront and honest if you get a bite is the best policy. Be reassuring to them that you’ve done your homework on what capacity (and incapacity) you are currently in, and what you’re normally like when you’re healed.
      GL

    3. Gallstones and Job Hunting?*

      Just an unfortunate but funny coincidence- I’d started my comment before the other one was up, & only saw it after submitting. In any case, thank you both! Sometimes it’s tough to step back when there’s so much going on at once.

      It’s reassuring to know that I won’t be out of commission too long (but to plan for that week and a half minimum!). I also appreciated the “be honest” point- it’s not in my nature to be deceptive, so that was reassuring too. It’s also really nice to know that a great employer would respond to honesty, provided everything else is a strong match and that I can physically do the work. I just feel like I’ve lost years of my life not being able to work consistently at full speed, (though I masked it pretty well bc most of OldJob was remote). I want my life back.

      Again, thanks, because I would have undersold myself out of desperation, and then I’d be back at square one.

  70. Jillyan*

    I’ve been told I made a mistake on a project at work. The person who says this is not my manager but one of the senior people that works in my department. We’re still trying to figure out what happened but he has been telling many others in the department that I am a poor employee. My manager is starting to distance himself from me. I’m really not sure what to do, as if I made a mistake I would admit to it and put in measures to make sure its not happening again. My contract is set for a renewal in two months so I’m not sure if this is a tactic to get me out. Any advice? It’s weighing on my health now, because I feel as though no one will trust me to do anything. This is the way it is here.

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      Sounds like an awful place to work. But now for something more constructive: I would go to your manager and ask about it directly. If someone is telling everyone in the office that you’re a bad employee for one mistake, then that’s a problem with that other employee. No one deserves that – everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

      As for your manager, if he really is distancing himself from you, I think you’ll be able to tell if you speak with him directly about this. if that’s the case, I would either suggest speaking with HR or just looking for a new place to work. No job should make your health suffer, especially if you’ve made just one mistake!

    2. yup*

      You can still salvage this. Go directly to the senior person that brought this up and have them explain to you what the mistake is. Repeat what they say back to them: “I now understand that by doing X, the adverse event of Y happened.”

      You should thank this senior person for caring so much about the project and thank them for working with you on resolving the problem. Ensure them that you won’t make this same mistake again.

      Before long, this senior person will change their opinion of you and that will get back to your manager that you’ve remedied the situation (and you’re not a problem anymore).

      GL

      1. Cee*

        You can try this, Jillyan, it’s a good script/method, but there’s still no guarantee senior person will turn their opinion around/stop badmouthing you. Try your hardest to fix mistakes, yes, but at the end of the day, some people are just jerks and nothing you do will appease them. That’s on them, not you.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I’d go to the boss and ask if you can help find the problem. Let him know that you are willing to be responsible for the mistake if it is yours and you are also willing to help even if it is not your mistake.

        Let the boss talk.

        If an opening comes in conversation, you can say, “I understand some people are very concerned about my work and that also concerns me.” If you feel you can do this continue on to explain that you know your contract is up for renewal and you would enjoy staying on.
        With stuff like this your worst enemy is not your badmouthing coworker, it’s the silence between you and your boss. Don’t wait for the boss to find you, go find the boss and speak up about your concerns. Let him know you will help in anyway possible. See, it’s not how we handle things that are going well that is important. What is important is how we handle things that are going poorly. Decide to show the boss the professional you that is willing pitch in and work along on a difficult situation.
        If the boss reacts like a jerk- that is on him, not you.

  71. Maisie*

    So I… Have a problem.

    My supervising manager is changing as of today. No sinister reasons, just a reshuffling to accomodate a few new employees.

    My previous manager was always fantastic. He was calm, matter of fact, and I always felt that my opinion carried a lot of weight with him. Unfortunately, my new manager is.. A lot of the opposite. Things become crisis mode when they’re not that bad. Anxious requests for information and constant prodding for resolutions and timelines. I’ve never worked with this manager on anything solid before, but my colleagues have and they’ve warned me very heavily that my recent experiences are absolutely typical of my new manager, and are the reasons they worked to be transferred to my old manager. Most of my workload is based with these colleagues, and not with the group that work with my new manager. I value their opinions very highly.

    Honestly, I’m a little frightened. I’m a very anxious and easily stressed person by nature, and the fact that my manager was a very calm, matter of fact person helped me immensely to cope with the stresses of this job. This is my first after leaving education, and I’ve been here for about nine months now. I’m the sole person in my role in the organisation (a national non-profit) and I know my work is absolutely indispensable because nobody else has the knowledge here to do it. Unfortunately that means that my managers are very unfamiliar with the technical challenges that my role poses, and I have to self-manage to a much higher degree than I’m used to.

    How do I work with this? What should I be doing to counter the panicked reaction that almost instantly hits when my new manager goes into crisis mode? I’m not good with being assertive. I internalise – probably a good thing, as my predecessor was apparently prone to outbursts.

    Help.

    1. Mina*

      Wow, I could have written this. I’m in the exact same situation, including being the only person in this role in the organization. Fortunately there are open lines of communication with those who are above my manager – any chance that may be true for you? Especially if your work is indispensable, that could give you a little more leverage to develop some mentoring/coaching relationships with others, some of whom may be aware of your manager’s “issues.”

      But it also sounds like learning how to be assertive, not internalize, deal with a difficult manager, etc. could serve us both well in the long-run. After all, we are likely to run into these types everywhere! Your predecessor was leaning more towards the aggressive side…there’s a middle ground. I’m reading the book “Non Violent Communication” and it’s giving me a lot of ideas about how to calmly state my side of things. Another book that’s supposed to be good is, “Crucial Conversations.” This may sound hokey, but I’m starting to think the universe keeps putting me in this situation so that I will finally learn how to be assertive with difficult folks.

      1. Maisie*

        ‘Above’ my manager is my old manager! I guess the lines of communication are there, but the step above that is our CEO – and while the CEO asserts that his door is always open, I don’t exactly want to make going to him a habit. :-P

        I rely super heavily on the coworker that I share an office with. The advice they’ve given me has been helpful up until now – from what I get, they totally failed at dealing with my new manager and now avoid them as much as is possible.

        I guess I need to learn to deal. It’s a learning experience. Thank you for the recommendations!

    2. yup*

      Maisie and Mina,

      In management shuffles, it is common for the new manager to be a little more “hands-on” and “nosey” and “uncertain” with you than you’re used to because, on its face, you are someone new for them to manage and they aren’t as familiar with your skillsets and productivity standards as your former boss.

      Google “surviving a micromanager” and you’ll get plenty of tips for how to communicate effectively with this personality type. It can be done! They are prone to uncertainty and anxiety (as any two strangers who are first meeting would be) so the more you can do to LESSEN their uncertainty about you, the better the relationship will be from their perspective (they don’t have to worry about you anymore).

      Focus on re-assuring the anxiety and stressed manager. You can be their rock. GL!

      1. Maisie*

        I was a little shocked because our offices face each other. I’m always in and out of their office bouncing things off them and letting them know things – my old manager was the director of the department and so was barely around in the first place. I honestly think they’re slightly more familiar with me than my old manager ever was, I just trust them a lot less. We have a tiny department, so everything’s really intimate.

        Thanks for the tips – from what I gather, this is just how things are. My other concern is that I now have to manage expectations across both managers because my workload is firmly focused on two fundraisers who are with the dept head.

      2. Mina*

        Thank you, that’s good advice…unfortunately though, some managers are just prone to being more anxious/paranoid. In my case, it does seem to be my manager’s personality as he is doing it to everyone. He also makes a lot of statements that speak to paranoia (that certain people are deliberately snubbing him, etc.) It is really challenging because no matter how diligent an employee I am, he is always suspicious. I’ve been waking up really early in the morning, worrying about it…but I think this is where I also need to learn to stop internalizing things – an admittedly big problem for me.

        1. misspiggy*

          In that case your key task is to make him feel like you’re on his side. Treat that task like a work project which is your only route to a big payrise, and put work time into it. Give yourself clear targets and indicators – how would you tell when he does start trusting you, and what behaviours would you then want to see from him which make your life easier?

          Outside work, force yourself to switch topics if you catch yourself worrying about it. You are handling the problem at work, and you’re not being paid to deal with work stuff outside of working hours.

  72. Recent Grad*

    I was recently flown out for an on-site interview. I was struck by how much the company constructed an image of themselves. For example, in talking to one of the taxi drivers (paid for by the company) I found out that when driving people to this company, there was a specific route the taxi drivers were supposed to take (presumably to show off the best parts of the city) and that they weren’t supposed to say bad things about the company or city. I am obviously going to try to find out as much as I can about the position and company and not rely on the constructed image that they presented to me, but I’m curious how typical it is for companies to manipulate and sell themselves this much.

    1. JMW*

      The company is making a big effort to make sure you have a pleasant experience and that the city and company are shown in their best light. I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. It says they are careful; they don’t want a rude taxi driver or a drive through a construction zone to put you off the job before they have had a chance to meet you. It’s no different than the candidate who is showing him- or herself in the best possible light.

    2. yup*

      I think that’s actually a huge plus, Recent Grad, because it shows they have put some serious thought into courting quality candidates (and making it more of a 2-way street situation). You should be honored to interview with such people.

      I would say this is not common. Most companies take the opposite approach: “We have a job, so let’s make you jump through our hoops like a circus act.” This company’s culture sounds like they treat their employees very well (red carpet for a new grad? lucky)

      1. Recent Grad*

        I agree that the company putting that much effort could be a good thing. The interview process has involved a fair number of hoops to jump through (assessments and personality tests, etc.). The company has a bit of a reputation for long hours and burning some employees out pretty quickly, so it made me wonder a bit. Of course, a company that is aware of its reputation and is trying to change it could be a good thing.

    3. Clever Name*

      My husband was recruited for a job right out of engineering school. The company flew him to a different city from the dinky airport by our college town. He stayed in a fancy hotel downtown, which was like 30 miles from the plant. (To be fair, hotels that were nearer were not that great) I think they were just trying to sell the city and the company to bright young engineers from a top engineering school. I wouldn’t assume anything sinister, but I do think it’s funny you got the cab driver to fess up.

  73. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am on my way home from what was supposed to be a well-managed 3-day in-person session with an out-of-state colleague that ended up pretty stressful and fraught. I’d been feeling like I was thrown into a lot of things with very little guidance, and this person was getting frustrated with me, and basically I was being set up to fail. I learned that I don’t have the whole picture– she agrees that they “haven’t set [me] up for success,” but I also learned that she THINKS she says things to me or tells me to do things, but… she doesn’t. Twice in three days I heard, “Wait– didn’t I say that out loud?” No. You didn’t. She’s also pretty disorganized and chaotic in her life in general, while I work really hard to manage and compartmentalize my time and tasks.

    I really like her, she’s very good at what she does, but I fear this is going to MAKE ME INSANE. We work on very high-level projects together (she is in charge, I am her second and I have only been with the company for 4.5 months). What can I do to get a handle on these things? I still don’t know all of our processes yet, and I feel like I’m still getting dinged for things I haven’t been told about in the first place. For what it’s worth, when I finally managed to get her to sit still long enough to work on the project I’d flown up to do in the first place, we had a really successful session and I felt great about it. It’s the chaos that is killing me.

    It makes me nuts because my boss is so different– very organized, very structured but very calm– and he won’t touch my clients with a 10-foot pole, so I feel like I’ll never get a chance to work on anything with him.

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      ” I heard, “Wait– didn’t I say that out loud?””

      Oh Gawd. One of my clients is like this. We’ll be talking on the phone and they will be saying “So you know how we’re doing X with Y and…” and I’m “Nope. This is the first I’ve heard of that.” “What? I thought we had this conversation?” I think that what’s happening is they are thinking about telling me the X with Y… and then that thought becomes ‘it happened, we discussed it’. Fun times.

  74. Tris Prior*

    What do you do when you’re promoted into a position that your colleague is resigning from, you’re told that you’ll be thoroughly trained, but said colleague is basically refusing to train you? Every specific question I’ve asked is being answered with vague responses like “well, how do YOU think you would do this?” or “you should be able to figure that out on your own.”

    I talked with my manager about it as diplomatically as I could, and she basically told me that everyone understands I’m going to have a learning curve and will make mistakes, and that I shouldn’t worry too much about it if it takes time to figure stuff out.

    So… that’s the attitude I’m going to take. I don’t like being thrown headfirst into things I don’t understand, but it doesn’t seem that anyone but me is that concerned. But I’m just really taken aback by this – EVERY job I have left, I’ve been careful to leave my work in good order, to meet with the people who are taking it over and answer questions to the best of my ability. This includes jobs that I hated and had one foot out the door. Is this a thing now?

    1. Sparrow*

      Wow, I’m sorry, that is a tough situation. It seems ridiculous to me that the resigning collegue won’t train you. Are you able to tell your manager point blank that the person is witholding information and refusing to train you? Is there another co-worker that can provide information or is there any sort of documentation or training material?

      Ugh, that person sounds really annoying and I don’t get why someone would want to act like this.

      1. Tris Prior*

        … sort of? I think most of it lives in this employee’s head, unfortunately. Hopefully he will document things in writing before leaving. I did get a bit of actual information out of him today, so that is a good start.

        The managers know that this is going on, but are not pushing back on him regarding training me. I have NO idea why. It doesn’t make any sense.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          They probably told him to chose between resigning or being fired. There’s more to this story that no one is mentioning to you.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      I would ask the questions via email, and hopefully your resigning colleague will respond the same way. That way you’ll be able to show that you made the effort to get trained, but were thwarted at every turn.

      1. Tris Prior*

        That’s a good idea. Perhaps also copying managers. All the stonewalling happened during face to face conversations.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I had that happen and it was because the departing employee never really learned how to do her job, so she couldn’t train me. If this is the case, then your boss may be acknowledging it by saying there is a learning curve.

    4. KJR*

      When I first started in my current position, I had some of the same issues, as far as getting vague & unhelpful answers. I finally resorted to coming up with (somewhat) outlandish solutions that I knew my “trainer” wouldn’t like, and he quickly did a 180 and suddenly became quite helpful. I don’t know if this will work in your situation or not, but thought I’d throw it out there.

    5. Windchime*

      I don’t know if it’s a thing now, but the last person who left our office did this. In fact, I would go so far as to say that she may have deliberately sabotaged us. The instructions that she gave to the person who is going to do a part of her job were completely wrong: Mentioning files that no longer exist, incorrect passwords, wrong IP addresses. She claimed to have trained someone that she didn’t. She supposedly gave a complete list of all her tasks to her manager, but conveniently forgot to mention the reports that she wasn’t supposed to be doing any longer (but still was) and all the manual work that she claimed was automated long ago.

      So yeah. Some people do this. I am so glad she is gone.

  75. T*

    How do you deal with people at your office who talk down to you like you’re 3 years old? There’s one person at work who does this to me and I honestly can’t take it anymore.

    1. Adam V*

      Just be straightforward. “I’ve noticed sometimes you talk to me like I’m a child, or explain things as if I didn’t understand (or whatever she’s doing). Is there a specific reason?”

      If they respond with “I didn’t realize I was doing that”, or similar, you can close with something like “Please just be more cognizant in the future.” If they respond with “well, that’s because back in July, I asked you for something related, and you were completely lost”, you may need to respond more like “I understand, but you continue to do it when it’s not necessary, and I’d prefer you stopped.”

      1. yup*

        I’m with Adam halfway on this. Be careful about accusing them of talking down to you because they might not realize they are doing it. If you’re 100% certain it’s malicious and bullying, then that’s different.

        You’re going to want to think about a standard reaction to give when this happens so that the person doing it will have a mirror turned on them. Like Allison Green’s typical response to wtf’s: “Really?” and then just create an uncomfortable pause which forces the person to think about what they just said or how they said it. If that doesn’t work itself out, I guess you could take the militant approach and be assertive and say “stop doing that!” but that might cause some angst that won’t be able to be healed (people never forget how you make them feel).

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          “they might not realize they are doing it.”

          I’ve found that sometimes people with small children go into this mode. It’s not that they think you are a child, they have gotten used to speaking like that and it’s become their default way of speaking. Or at least that’s what I keep telling myself when I have to deal with people like this.

    2. TheLazyB*

      Transactional analysis? That really helps me to remember I can always react like an adult…. no matter how I’m being treated.

      If you don’t know it I can find a link.

    3. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      Aaarrgh I SO sympathize with this! However you end up doing it– definitely tackle it head on. It went on for 6 years, until I left that job. When I joined the company, she’d been there 10 years, I was just out of college. And even though I was higher up than she was, I never felt comfortable addressing it. It drove me CRAZY and I should have said stood up for myself.

  76. Not Inordinately, No*

    So bear with me, this is a bit of a storytime situation, but I really haven’t told anyone about it at all and I NEED to lament about it.

    Backstory: I work in one program of a multi-service non-profit, and our current contract consists of me, a colleague in the same role as me who I’ll call Barbara, another colleague, and the director. A few months ago, the AMAZING director decided after several years that it was time to move on, and so for the past 3 months Barbara and I were tasked with orienting our new director and adapting to her management style. Then unexpectedly, just as we were starting to get on a good flow with her, a family emergency happened and she had to resign immediately. Which means that as upper management tries to refill the role, Barbara and I are floating around here with NO SUPERVISION on a daily basis.

    More context about our work: We work directly with clients here, and our target population is a particularly challenging one. Barbara and I each have a rotating and ever expanding caseload of approximately 30 people with whom we have to complete certain points of service to hit our targets. Because our role consists of direct client service, group facilitation, outreach, reporting, and constantly sourcing referrals and opportunities for clients via research and actually going to off-site events, both Barbara and I are often here as late as 7 or 7:30 p.m. trying to finish everything. It’s extraordinarily stressful, draining work. It’s important work, and it does pay off, but it’s an enormous amount of work for two people to handle.

    When I get stressed, I tend to ruminate on mistakes and beat myself up, but it’s all internalized- or I’ll do something like lock myself in the bathroom for 10 minutes with my headphones and have a secret dance party to some black metal and then come out like I’m fine. Or I’ll cry at home. Barbara, on the other hand, is more external with her stress, and recently she has ramped it up to an alarming degree. She will quite literally walk around the office sighing, moaning, singing about how stressed she is, exclaiming, “Help me, Jesuuuuuuuuus!”, making this very particular noise that’s half a song and half a wail that’s not even transcribe-able. In addition to all her non-verbal vocal stylings, she has actually said out loud, “I can’t take this, I’m quitting non-profit,” “Don’t ever work in non-profit,” and “All these people are sucking my blood.” I’ve tried to half-jokingly be like, “Everything okay, Barbara?” and “You CAN hear yourself, right?” but the “sucking my blood” comment actually riled me enough to call her out on how inappropriate it was, and she responded with one of those “sorry you’re offended” apologies. She never did this when we had a director, and now that we don’t have one, she’s always careful to do it when upper management isn’t around. She will, however, do this in front of any other staff and also IN FRONT OF CLIENTS. My breaking point came the other night when she was saying five hundred times that she had to leave the office but first she had to do another afternoon’s worth of work, and another colleague was hounding her to just stop and leave like she said she wanted to, and then the client she was speaking to on the phone said the wrong thing and Barbara literally SCREAMED at him, “AAAAAAAUUUUUUGGGGGHHHHH I CAN’T WITH THIS, I’M HANGING UP.” Bear in mind that a large part of our work with our exceptionally challenging population is to model appropriate professional norms!

    I am so shocked and upset by all of this. When our old director was still here, she’d cautioned me for far less than what Barbara’s doing, and I feel like if she’d had any inkling that this was happening she would be absolutely furious. As far as what I can do, I feel like my hands are really tied. Whenever I try to initiate a discussion about what we can do to minimize the stress, or have an idea to share with her that might help things feel more structured, or I just want to know, “Are you actually okay? Is there something else bigger going on?” she doesn’t actually want to talk about it, but she’ll then walk around the office wailing and moaning and sucking her teeth, and then if God forbid I have a question or want to tell her something, I can hear her at her desk like, “Ugggghhhhhh….”. I don’t feel like I can tell anyone about it because a) no director, and upper management doesn’t really have a protocol for handling stressful situations, and b) I feel like it wouldn’t be taken as seriously coming from me, since in terms of numbers/appearance of seniority she has the slightest of edges on me. And quite honestly, if I were to tell someone and she were to get disciplined for it, I’m afraid that at best it will make our relationship totally adversarial, and at worst if she’s let go I WILL BE THE ONLY ONE HERE. WITH NO DIRECTOR.

    I’m really trying not to fall into Bitch Eating Crackers mode, but it’s so hard not to feel like I’m a part of someone else’s global Bitch Eating Crackers siege. I love the organization, I’m still active as a volunteer with another program in it, and I used to really enjoy coming to work every day, but now I’m just feeling super de-motivated- and the worst part is that I’m waiting to hear back from a highly regarded graduate program I really want to attend that would have me doing field work at my site, which means that if I’m accepted I have to commit to the organization for another two years. Plus we did recently get a new hire to help us out with one part of the work, and I don’t want her to notice it too and get scared away before we’re able to make a dent in anything.

    I’m still friendly and talk frequently with my first former director. I’ve thought about asking her for feedback, but I think she’s also friendly with Barbara, and I don’t want it to get back to her or sound like I’m tattling or complaining or whatever. How else should I manage this so I can actually feel okay about being here?

    1. MsM*

      You should really track down AAM’s post about how the concept of “tattling” in a workplace context needs to die, or at least be reserved for actual “bitch eating crackers” situations. Barbara is yelling at clients. If someone doesn’t put their foot down, that’s going to make everyone’s lives harder. Tell management (and if they refuse to do anything, talk to your prospective grad program about how difficult it would be to find another site), and start telling Barbara maybe she should take it outside until she calms down, because her venting’s just making things worse.

    2. fposte*

      I would check with the former director but I’d be prepared to take it to upper management if it didn’t look like a director was going to be in place any time soon. They don’t need to have an official protocol in place–you can just query the person whose name you know and go for there. It might be a good idea to have a suggestion in place so that they don’t have to think through an action–do you want somebody to stop by more often, or remind the office that it’s important professional norms are observed? Or both?

      But I also think you might want to try to loosen your mental grip on this a little. This is a person performing her job poorly. That’s going to happen, and it’s a shame that it’s happening in a situation where she’s supposed to be helping people. But you can only do what you can do, and you’re absolutely going to encounter this again in your professional life. Just as you can’t fix all your clients, you can’t fix every work situation and co-worker. Maybe regretfully letting go of some of your expectations for the behavior you can’t control–hers–would help you ride out the situation with less stress.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It won’t be long, someone will report her and she will get investigated.

      Basically she’s burned out. She probably cannot do the job any more.

  77. _ism_*

    My boss and I are frustrated with each other on a daily basis. Ever since I disclosed my Asperger’s diagnosis to her (which I don’t even 100% believe) she’s treated me a a little differently, and I can see that she’s visibly frustrated with me over small things far more often than before. She also has begun to explain things to me repeatedly, five or six different ways, very condescendingly. She has a low-functioning autistic grandchild, and I wonder if she’s using similar tactics to relate to me like she uses with her grandson. Sometimes she’ll make fun of how fast I type (and yes, I can type a quick note or keyboard command that takes 1 second while I’m having a conversation with her) and demands I stop what I’m doing to listen to her at a moment’s notice. And she continues to cut me off when I have a complicated question or long explanation for something we are working on, and derails the conversation from the actual task at hand. I don’t know what to do!

    1. JMW*

      Could you say to her, “I have noticed that since I disclosed my Asperger’s diagnosis, that you treat me differently.” Give an example, and then describe what would be more helpful for you. Ask her if that would work for her. She may not realize she is doing anything differently, so it could benefit you both to bring it up.

      1. _ism_*

        I’m afraid that if I describe what would be more helpful, it’ll just be a re-hash of a conversation we had prior to my disclosure. In that conversation, I let her know that watching over my shoulder really flusters me and I lose focus if she’s hovering there waiting on something. I don’t know why, but I forget all my muscle memory keyboard commands for our ancient computer system when she’s watching. If she’s not watching, I can do it just fine. I also let her know that when she yells to me or comes up to me about something I am not working on right that moment, I need her to hang on a second so I can mentally switch gears, or else I’ll get distracted and make mistakes. So we had agreed to communicate a little better, but in that conversation is when my Asperger disclosure fell out of my mouth. And now this.

        1. Marcela*

          I don’t think this is going to help you, sorry about that, but I also seem to lose all computer abilities when somebody is watching me. I can be repeating something I did just a couple of minutes ago, but the moment I notice somebody looking at my screen or keyboard, my mind empties and I just sit there, trying to gather my thoughts.

          1. _ism_*

            I know right! This is a new problem for me… but then again so is a the boss who stands there and watches while I do routine things.

    2. yup*

      File this one under “difficult individuals” and keep on truckin’.

      I like to continue typing while I’m looking at someone just to be funny, sometimes. When they get irritated by seeing that your attention is only 75% on them and 25% on typing, flash a big knowing smile, then stop typing and pay attention. It’s an awkward power trip this person is on, so have some fun with it.

      1. _ism_*

        My attention isn’t even on typing! I’m literally just doing page up/down, scroll left/right, copy and paste, highlight some text for her attention, REALLY SIMPLE STUFF that takes one second and is totally relevant to what we’re doing. It’s like it confuses her or she can’t keep up, or she thinks I’m doing something magical and complicated because I can make a document go to the next page without reaching up and using my mouse. She is the one who told me they were wanting “new blood” and “younger people” to come in during their hiring frenzy last year. In my interview she said they wanted people who would grow with the company and help the company update its technology use and process. That’s my bag, but they’re resistant to it. Someone from corporate will print out a spreadsheet, scan an image of the sheet, e-mail it to us, and then someone here will print out the scan, mark it up or do their work on paper, scan that, e-mail it back to corporate. All of this could have been done simply by trading the Excel attachment back and forth with changes. When I suggest things like this and even say I’m willing to train people, I get rebuffed. Everyone except me and the temp labor are from the Boomer generation.

    3. nona*

      It sounds like she’s seeing a lot of things you do in light of that diagnosis – including random things like having learned to type quickly, explaining something in detail when needed, or wanting her to stop looking over your shoulder.

      I would be tempted to remind her that you’re the exact same person you were before you were diagnosed, when you were hired, and before she found out about the diagnosis. Nothing about you changed. Only her behavior’s turned weird as hell.

      I mean. Don’t say that.

      1. _ism_*

        I think so too, I just wonder what “light” the diagnosis seems to be casting on my (unchanged) work habits in her view. I stated directly that I hadn’t told her before because I do not feel I need any special disability accomodations to do my job.

        1. misspiggy*

          Minimise her standing over you. When she wants something, go to her desk and work it out on her computer. If she demurs, say, ‘Don’t worry, I’m sure this will be easier for you at your desk’.

          At other times when she approaches you, change it up by turning completely away from your screen, pulling up a chair for her, and giving her your undivided attention with a pen and paper to write down everything she wants. Behave like a gracious duchess receiving an unexpected guest. Then say, ‘Great, I’ve got everything you need down – I’ll get right on it.’ Big smile, stand up to put your notepad away/get a file, a drink of water, whatever – that should send her the signal to get back to her own space. Basically get her out of those situations where she gets irritated with you, turning them into settings where the physical power relationship is more in your favour and she isn’t able to scrutinise how you do things.

  78. Jillociraptor*

    I have an interview next week for a position consulting in the type of work I currently do. I have no experience with actual consulting, but I’m really comfortable and have lots of success with the subject matter. Any advice for breaking into (nonprofit) consulting and “speaking the language” when it’s still really new?

    1. yup*

      Gonna defer this to people who have done consulting before.
      If I had to speak on it, I’d say you’re pretty much a problem solver: Get in there, do a full report of what’s going on at all levels, whos involved and doing what, and then let the people who are owners of the situation work it out. It’s probably not your job to prescribe the solution, but to organize the data and facilitate a discussion among leadership to arrive at some options for improvement (which you can’t prescribe without buy-in from them, anyways, so just record the progression and present it to them as a “minutes/action plan”).

      A consultant is like an outside opinion because someone’s within an org if you’re too familiar you can’t see the inefficiencies right in front of your face. Find those!

    2. misspiggy*

      Emphasise your networks and understanding of how that world operates. Show how your experience gives you good insight into the priorities and pressures of consultancy clients. I’m not sure if you’ll be operating as a contractor for a nonprofit or joining a consultancy firm, but if the former, check what types of liability insurance and other cover you might need to arrange for yourself, and factor that into your fees.

  79. JPixel*

    I’m feeling grateful to work for a company with great benefits and a supportive boss. I had a death in the family and was immediately sent home on bereavement leave with instructions not to return for a week so that I could be with my family. I’ve really been struggling at work (feeling like there is no growth left for me there) but this made me reflect on how work is more than just climbing the ladder.

    It has been a challenging week, but I’ve felt so relieved about not having to worry about my job or feel guilty that I’m not there. I have checked in once or twice to tie up a couple loose ends, but I’ve only “worked” about 15 minutes total. It’s a sad time for me personally, but it has put some things in perspective for my professional life.

    1. Sparrow*

      So sorry for you loss and that you’re going throug a diffcult time. That’s good to hear that your boss is being supportive.

    2. S*

      I’m sorry for your loss. But on the bright side, at least you have a new perspective on your company now, and you can see that they do truly value their employees.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This brought to my mind my post from last week about how the question of what to wear to an interview is job and location specific. So all the people saying in response to this article that her clothes would have been fine for their company are kind of missing the point that we have no way of knowing if they were fine for the one she was interviewing in, since there are certainly plenty of places where it wouldn’t be. I personally would have found her inappropriately dressed. You really shouldn’t be showing cleavage in a job interview.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I feel bad that she missed out on the job, but I’m with you — inappropriate for an interview. It would probably be fine for *work* in my office, although I personally might give you the side eye, but not for an interview. Team Suit would not have had this problem of looking “mildly sexual.” (Unless you were intentionally going for the sexy-but-suited look.)

        She should appreciate that she received this feedback, so she can take that and dress more appropriately next time. Instead, she’s raging on the internet.

          1. Marcela*

            Yes, you can see she has boobs. You can see where the curve where they start. But I find very funny that you’d think that’s inappropiate cleavage, since you are not seeing _anything_.

          1. Windchime*

            Yep, there is cleavage. I am also pretty questionable on the lacy edge on her jacket; it seems a little boudoir for an interview. If I was interviewing for a programmer and found her skills and personality were a good fit, I could let the clothing slide. But if it was a close race and the other candidate was more conservatively dressed it could cause me to think twice about this candidate.

            1. Windchime*

              Oh, and she was also late and apparently had a run in her tights. So the overall picture isn’t one of promptness and attention to detail.

          2. Nicole*

            Yes, thank you! I wouldn’t wear that to work even if I saw other women dressing the same. Reminds me of that old show The War At Home – the wife wore cleavage-baring shirts (even worse than the one this woman wore) to work all the time. I know it was just a TV show but it still blew my mind.

    2. Karowen*

      The outfit’s not bad as an outfit, but it’s definitely not appropriate for an interview. All those people in the article tweeting about people working in jeans, guy wearing a robe…I sincerely doubt they showed up to the interview liked that. I’d bet they were dressed in a full suit (or in the very least exactly the same but without the jacket).

      1. Buu*

        I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coder in a suit at an interview, it’s quite normal to wear smart /casual clothes to an interview for non client facing companies in tech and IT. That said looking at what the company do they do seem pretty cooperate, so I suspect the feedback about clothing has come entirely from the corporate side of things and not the jeans wearing coders.

        I think the feedback was pretty rude though the clubbing comment screamed talking down to someone young, and the tights comment seemed nitpicky when she was running late, there’s better ways of phrasing it. I hope she learns from this and asks about dress code before the interview or else applies to companies where her style of dress would be OK.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, if I were the boss of the feedbacker we’d probably have a brief talk about what kind of feedback is appropriate. But that doesn’t make it untrue.

      2. CA Admin*

        My husband is a programmer and he wears jeans to his interviews. Nice jeans with a collared shirt and nice shoes, but jeans nonetheless. For a programming job? She was dressed better than most guys in the same industry do for interviews. I get why she’s pissed.

    3. MaryMary*

      Agreed, the rant is worse than the outfit. She is hardly the first college student, male or female, who lost a job opportunity because they didn’t dress conservatively for the interview.

      I was a business major in college, and there were always a few students with non-traditional personal styles (blue hair, multiple peircings, etc). The first year or two, they were sure that there were tons of employers who didn’t care what they looked like, and “if they wouldn’t hire me because of my hair/piercings/tattoos, then I don’t want to work there anyways.” By the middle of senior year, those same kids had traditional hairstyles, removed their piercings, and wore conservative suits to interviews.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      That was not an appropriate outfit for an interview. Especially not for that type of job. A job at Panera? Maybe. It was far too casual. But her rant was really over the top and to put it on FB/Twitter? That will haunt you forever.

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        It was in inappropriate, especially for a Cleveland-based healthcare IT company. Now, the HR person could have just said they had concerns with her judgement and professionalism based on lateness and dress and left it there.

        1. KJR*

          Yes, this exactly. I live mid-point between Oberlin College and Cleveland, and the two environments might as well be worlds apart. All the more reason to know who you are interviewing for.

          1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

            I was confused until I read she was an Oberlin student, because a Case student would have known how to dress. When I was there, the business and computer science folks got all the job-hunting resources, and there was nothing for liberal artists.

        2. TotesMaGoats*

          Yeah, I wouldn’t have said she wasn’t hired because of how she dressed. That opened a huge can of worms.

    5. fposte*

      I also think there was much brushing off of the fact that she was late. Telling people that you’re running late helps, but it doesn’t magically erase being late from the record. If there are other aspects to your presentation that make me wonder, that late’s going to count.

      Also, she mentions her top was “a little booby but what isn’t on me.” I get that higher necklines aren’t flattering, and that there’s an unfortunate irony that the bigger the chest, the less flattering the higher necklines are. But for job interviews, you’re generally better off with a crewneck tank or shell under your sweater than lovely, flattering cleavage.

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        I agree, the lateness was one part I thought was very unprofessional. I understand sometimes things happen beyond your control, but we drive out to interview sites early in case there is traffic or you get a run in your hose. I remember my last interview at my current job where I hit really really bad traffic due to a hug accident. Luckily for me in my county in SoCal, there was a route through farmland that would get me around the accident. But I still wouldn’t have made it on time if I hadn’t left early – that route adds several minutes. It’s hard to do, but you have to plan ahead for emergencies in order to make a good impression.

        Also, about the outfit, I thought it looked unprofessional for an interview, no matter what company. I am a curvy gal with DDs and I have to accept that some things look frumpy on me and don’t flatter me well or make me look professional. It’s not about wearing what you think is cute or goes with your style or getting ready for hours with lots of make-up. The main thing is to look according to social norms just for that moment. Once the interview is over and you have a job, if it’s a casual place, that outfit would be great and totally cute.

      2. BRR*

        Yeah I’m not a fan of how she just made excuses for everything that could leave a negative impression. This is good advice she should take to heart.

    6. The IT Manager*

      I was late.” (Bentivegna says she told them she was running late ahead of time.)

      Well, it’s polite that she called them to say she’d be late, but that doesn’t make her not late. It seems like a double whammy of not quite professional. You need to be on youre best professional behavior in an interview so that means not being late and being more professionally dressed than you have to be when you work there.

      I think the online rant proves she’s not as professional as she thinks she is.

    7. Cruciatus*

      I was going to post this but thought someone might have beaten me to it so I searched the page–glad I did! I read two articles, and one mentioned that she was late (she called them, but was still late), there was also a run in her leggings/pantyhose (whatever), and she just didn’t look put together. I think it’s weird the recruiter told her she would have had the job for her skills and personality if it weren’t for this problem (this is when she asked for feedback). Why not just say “We didn’t think it was a good fit. We wish you the best of luck.” The article posted doesn’t have her rant, however, on social media (that her “friend” posted–hopefully with her consent). She ranted about driving to Cleveland, paying $20 for parking, and that the interview went well and how dare you not hire her because she showed a little booby. As we regulars here know, good interviews or driving out of your way doesn’t mean you have the job. We don’t know if maybe they wanted her but someone came in later and blew her interview out of the water. She came off as very entitled to me and the company is probably glad they dodged this bullet. And she should be glad she didn’t get the job since it sounds like it wasn’t going to be a good fit anyway.

    8. The Strand*

      People who are programmers often do show up in much scruffier clothes.

      And it’s a pain, but women are held to a higher standard for clothing. Judgment usually is directed from women against other women.

      I would bet that the comments came from the woman hiring manager. And that she comes from outside IT originally.

      She has no idea if the “clubbing” etc comments are verbatim from OneShift or whether they have been shaped by the recruiter.

      Anyone could have a run in their tights, right before a job interview. A complaint like that seems very catty to me, but I agree that the clothing was not professional enough for an interview.

      “ReVirgin” (quoted in the article) then told one of the people discussing this topic, “Y’all make a million excuses for caucasity.” Which is too bad, because she had been making an interesting point earlier about how, as a black woman, she was more aware of the fetishization of her sexuality and body. She argued that white women don’t think about their sexuality in that way, that it’s entirely different. I actually think this is too limited; all you have to do is watch “Working Girl” to see how white women’s sexuality and bodies are viewed differently through class lens. And in this case, the programmer needed to think about the message she was sending about her youth.

      Now, the comment addressed to OneShift was terrible, and really stupid. Way to shoot yourself in the foot, in the long run.

    9. Marcela*

      I take offense in two things: first, the heavy makeup. I have very big dark spots covering, at this point, I’d say 1/3 of my face. So yes, my foundation can look very heavy, because I’m trying to hide something beneath it. But that doesn’t have any correlation with my behavior, nor my capabilities. If she went to the interview wearing bright colors, well, that’s another thing.

      And second, the clubbing part. It’s perfectly ok to say that you are not appropriately dressed for the interview. I don’t have a suit, I’ve never owned one and I’ve gone to interviews, conferences and I’ve given talks without having any problems or comments. But that’s my specific area, where most of the time I am the best dressed person in the room, often being told that. But as unprofessional she was, not wearing a suit, the company was when they pressumed thay had some right to infer something about her life outside work, just because of her outfit. That’s they kind of crap some old people feels can do to young persons or young women. I doubt they would have told the same thing an older woman or male, with a similar inappropriate outfit.

      And not, two wrongs do not make a right. The facts that she was inappropriately dressed, late and ranting, do not diminishes in one bit the horrible attitude of the potential employer.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think it was a horrible attitude so much as a very poorly phrased response, though. As you say, it’s okay to consider somebody’s appearance insufficiently professional for the situation. Their attitude about that was fine. It was just their statement about it that was badly worded.

        1. Marcela*

          I’m not sure about that. I mean, I could accept it was just a badly worded response if there was only one bad statement, for example they only said something about makeup _or_ clothes. I can’t pretend all my communications have been impeccable and sometimes I’ve discovered I’m saying something that can be very offensive without actually meaning that (I mean in my native language: I know I’m not exactly elegant in English and I do my best to check and re check what I’m writing/saying :D). But those two things together make me think that poorly written statement or communication is the result of a very specific mindset aimed at a very specific group of people. I truly believe an employer who judges me by my makeup has a horrible attitude.

          1. fposte*

            But as far as I know there was only one bad statement–there’s the one they made when she asked for feedback. They haven’t said anything else since then or during the interview, have they?

            I think you’re overweighting the statement as a signifier. I mean, I’d do the same thing if I were her and tell myself I’d dodged a bullet, as we so frequently say, but in reality, an individual on the hiring end can do something that really isn’t representative of the hiring process or the company. And we have no idea whether the company thought the feedback giver was absolutely right on, you go, or whether that person has been talked to sternly for the wording.

            1. Marcela*

              Well, yes, you are right: I was considering the statement as a statement from the company, instead of thinking it could be just one person’s opinion. My experience is betraying me, being in environments where even if I was hired by a big organization (university), I was only exposed to the rules and ideas of the principal researcher of a given group. But hey, that’s the reason I read this blog and the comments. To understand how different is the working world and the American world from my know world. See for example my other comment about cleavage: I truly didn’t know that was considered inappropriate cleavage.

              Thanks, fposte.

    10. Clothes etc.*

      I could see that outfit *maybe* flying in some arts jobs, but you also have to present a professional image & it sounds like she did not. I’m getting a sense of entitlement from the article- like “How could they -not- hire me?”. That’s assuming you know more than your interviewer about cultural fit & what the job entails. There’s the fact that she went to the press. There’s the friend posting on social media. Image is important: torn stockings, lateness, making a pubic scene when you don’t agree with feedback- these are not things that scream “professional”.

  80. Crazy me, again!*

    Two things… I posted last Friday on the open thread about two much older (20 + years) co-workers asking me on dates after barely even speaking to them. First thing – Does anyone have any verbiage they recommend when people are being inappropriate with you?

    Generally, I say something like, “Sorry?!” and give them a crazy look or I know Alison has said to say something like, “I’m sorry but I can’t understand what you’re saying as anything but inappropriate” but I’d love to have an arsenal of good phrases to use.

    Second thing – (I’m embarrassed to post this…) one of the much older men who asked on a date has been using the women’s restroom. It is the type of restroom that is just one stall with a lock on the door (not multiple stalls) and I found several times the door would be locked when I went to go to the restroom which is WEIRD because I am the only woman on this floor. I understand if it was an emergency but it has happened several times… Well, finally I saw him exiting the women’s restroom and another coworker has also reported seeing him going in there.

    There usually isn’t a line for the bathroom, there’s only a few people on the floor and with the addition of him asking me on a date, him using the ladies room is really weirding me out.

    I am the only other woman on the floor, it is a small company, the owner works remotely 90% of the time, and we have no HR department.

    Advice, please. :(

    1. Karowen*

      I feel like I’m going to get rained down on for this comment, but whatever.
      I’m coming from the flipside of the bathroom issue. The bathrooms closest to my office are the only private bathrooms in the building. You’re supposed to use the bathroom closest to you, but people come from across the company to use ours because it’s more private. I personally haven’t used the men’s room at my office, but my (female) co-workers do all the time because it’s almost always empty. (I guess the guys in the building don’t care about peeing next to people but the girls do?) So yeah, the guy’s weird, but not necessarily super creepy from my POV.

      Now, if he’s using it regardless of whether the men’s room is empty, that’s a different (and weird) story.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think the bathroom thing is weird, but not a hill to die on. Or even a hill to visit.

      UNLESS he is leaving it in any way messy. If so, feel free to shame him at some point if you see him leaving, and say something like ‘Hey Fergus, I’ve noticed that this bathroom has had some messes recently. I’m the only woman that uses it, but since you use it also, please keep it clean!’

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        If there are a lot of men in the building, the men’s might be dirtier/smellier than this guy likes or can handle and being less frequented, that one wouldn’t be as messy, you could rely there was TP in there. At least he locks it when he uses it. While not great that he does use it, it would be way worse if he was forgetting or intentionally not locking the door, hoping he would be able to renew his addresses. Short of having locks installed with codes on them, I’m not sure if there’s any way to stop it. You can report it to management/HR but no one is going to want to play Bathroom Cop.

    3. Xarcady*

      I’m not sure I’d call an older man asking a younger woman on a date “inappropriate.” It’s really just a guy asking a girl on a date. People with age differences greater than 20 years date and marry all the time.

      What’s inappropriate is that you are co-workers. So go with that. “Sorry, I don’t date co-workers.” If they ask you again, use exactly the same words. “Sorry, I don’t date co-workers.” If they ask you a third time, give them a very puzzled look and say, “As I have said before, I do not date co-workers. Why have you asked me this again?” If it happens a fourth time, go to your supervisor, because at that point, their behavior is bordering on harassment.

      This is the professional way to handle such a situation.

      While I can understand that you don’t like their attention and would like to let them know just how much you find their attention creepy and inappropriate, it is probably not a good idea to tell someone, “Hey, you’re creepy. Leave me alone!” when a simple statement of fact, “I don’t date co-workers,” should get them off your back.

      If you start getting into reasons why you won’t go out with them, you only give them ammunition to argue with you–“No, I’m not creepy,” “No, it really is appropriate,” “Why don’t you just go out with me once?” Stick with a statement of fact, “I don’t date co-workers,” and they will have much less to talk to you about.

      As for the one guy using the ladies’ room, I’m wondering if he might not have some health related issue that makes having a private bathroom necessary, or at least desirable. Since you have no HR department, do you have a manager/supervisor you could talk to about this, and have them deal with the situation? If not, then you need to contact the owner and have her address the issue. I’m guessing that you are not comfortable tackling this yourself–I can’t blame you for that, given the circumstances.

    4. Crazy me, again!*

      I should note this is the same guy who asked me on a date who is using the restroom which is why it is making me uncomfortable… and he didn’t start doing it until after the “incident”

      1. Sadsack*

        I think you should follow Xarcady’s advice regarding the date requests. Xarcady and the others may also be on to something regarding the bathroom use. If he isn’t leaving it messy, why does it really matter if he is using it? If there were other women in your area, then you would be waiting for them to leave the bathroom before you could use it, so what’s the difference?

      2. fposte*

        I think you need to take some deep breaths :-). There’s nothing threatening about being asked out (and yes, I do remember your account) and there’s nothing sacred about a bathroom. Guy likes to have a locked room to himself; lots of people do. It sounds like there are other bathrooms you could use, so unless they’re a huge haul that’s difficult for you to make, just use the other bathrooms.

    5. Crazy me, again!*

      Thank you everyone for their comments.

      I guess the bathroom thing is just weird to me because I would never use the men’s room unless it was a special case. I should note that there is a men’s room that is private right next to the women’s on our floor. This bathroom is also locked, single room… I would understand if it was once, but this guy seems to only use the ladies room now. Who knows, maybe the ladies is cleaner?

      I think I will follow the advice of fposte and just use the bathroom on another floor because there’s not really much to do in the situation.

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Eh, about the bathroom, it’s sort of whatever as long as they are leaving it in nice condition. I work at an IT company with just a few women and almost all men, and I see them use our 1 stalled women’s room all the time. Sometimes even when the men’s is free. I never use the men’s – I just don’t want to. I think this probably has nothing to do with him asking you out. I get that it’s weird at first, but really no big deal in the long run.

  81. NeedNewManager*

    Is there a tactful way of asking that you be moved to a new department within your office?

    Right now, I sit within Department A and am the only person who does what I do. There’s another department, Department B, with which I work closely and there are several people on that team who do what I do. Not all of our work overlaps, but probably 75% of it does.

    My manager, in Department A, is not a good manager, at least not to me. She routinely ignores my emails, doesn’t seem to care about my professional development, and doesn’t show up for our weekly check-in meetings. Whenever I try to bring up issues, she brushes them off.

    I have a great rapport with the Department B manager and would much rather work under her. She has a management style I respect and is accessible and easy to communicate with. In an office filled with politics, is there a way to diplomatically suggest that I be switched into Department B?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I think it depends very much on your office’s policies and also how much you can trust the various *individuals*.

      If I were in your shoes and the rules were like my company’s (you are supposed to go to your manager and say you’re interested in an internal opportunity before you can throw your hat in the ring), I would start an informal, off-the-record conversation with Department B manager. First find out if she’s receptive to the idea, because if she isn’t, then there’s no point poking the bear with your own boss.

      If she is, she’ll probably have some company-specific advice for you, and at least you can approach the conversation with your current supervisor with confidence. NOT that you then go to your boss and say, “I talked to Jane and she wants me to join her department!” But you can go and say, “I’ve had a great experience working for Jane, and now she has an opening on her team. Would you be open to me having a conversation with her and exploring whether I might be the right fit?”

      1. NeedNewManager*

        Thanks. I agree that it’s probably best to start by opening a conversation with the manager of Department B.

        For clarification, this isn’t about me wanting to apply to an open position on her team. This is about wanting to restructure my role so that it reports into Department B now, and not Department A. So the conversation isn’t about wanting to throw my hat into the ring, or being considered for an opening. The conversation would be something like, “considering the work I do and who I routinely collaborate with, I’m wondering if it would make more sense to join Department B and report up to that manager.” (Though I’m sure it would be implied that, hey, I don’t like you as a manager!)

        1. fposte*

          I still think Manager B is the place to start, because there are many workplaces where that’s way out of convention and might even be held against you for asking. Manager B can give an idea of whether they do that where you work or not.

    2. it happens*

      Starting with Dept B manager is the way to go. Talk about how much your work has overlap with their area and how it might make sense from an organizational perspective to move because you would be closer to the action, have more peers for support, cross-training, blah blah blah. Understanding that moving headcount from one department to another can be a bear, depending on the organization. Many managers count their worth in their FTE count (I know, they should be concerned with results and how they contribute to the company’s success, nonetheless…)

  82. TGIF*

    A few weeks ago I wrote in asking how to coach someone who is a “black and white” type of person when many things about the job are in the “gray” area.

    My senior analyst and I sat down with our team member and explained what we were seeing and how it needed to improve. We both offered to have her shadow us while we walk through some cases so she can see what we look at, what our reasoning is as to why it is or isn’t suspicious, and how we write our notes on the case. We made sure to tell her to ask as many questions as she needs to; we know this is something she hasn’t done before and the “gray” area is a struggle sometimes. She was very enthusiastic about doing it.

    She walked through some cases with my senior analyst and then earlier this week she sat with me while I did some second reviews on cases. (She’s the first set of eyes and decides whether to open a case. I’m the second set of eyes and look at the cases she created.) It went really well. As it turns out, the cases I looked at were real doozies and I was struggling with them as well. But we talked through why it could be suspicious and why maybe it isn’t after all.
    I think it helped her to see that this really can be difficult sometimes and that even the senior people, and their manager, have a tough time with it. Seems like she’s feeling better about it.

  83. Jennifer*

    In other news: they are once again going to be VERY SHORT STAFFED on my birthday next week. So much for my group going out to lunch for it like we were planning. I am so sick of being short staffed. My mom was griping at me for not wanting to take vacation during busy seasons and was all “why is everyone else out and you’re the only one there?” Because I never get sick and I don’t have kids or an ailing husband at home, that’s why.

    I am seriously considering whether or not to “call in sick” or just flat out tell my supervisor that I’m taking the day off as a vacation day. Because I do not want to spend my birthday, of all days, spending 4-6 hours answering the public phone line and PRAYING FOR DEATH. Of course, that probably isn’t okay either.

    1. Steve G*

      That sucks. At my past job we handled blackout prevention. Since my birthday was July 15th, my birthday was sidelines 3 of the summers I was there because of actual electric blackout prevention emergencies. It does hurt a bit that 2 of those times, my coworkers didn’t schedule anything for after the fact (though they did this summer, thankfully).

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I’m starting to understand that stuff like this matters to some people, but keep in mind that a lot of people don’t care much about birthdays. For me personally, it’s just another day, so I would be a bit bewildered if I was your supervisor and you were upset about working on your birthday. You can celebrate another day.

      (In general, I definitely get where you’re coming from, just not the birthday logic. I wanted to take a half-day last Friday, but couldn’t because we had to stay and send some things out and have only had a couple vacation days this year, while one coworker has taken long European AND Asian vacations in the past 6 months.)

      1. Jennifer*

        I normally never take my birthday off and don’t really care, but I really don’t want to spend that day of all days doing the worst part of my job for six hours straight. Especially since I have to drive that night and can’t get drunk after another day on the phones like usual.

        I know it’s stupid. I’m well aware. But I am very sick of being the only one around while half the staff is out every damn Friday, too. Don’t ask me why an entire department can get approved to leave early today… but I never have any reason to not be here because I have no kids/husband to deal with.

        1. Jennifer*

          Yeah, basically I ONLY don’t want to be here that day because of six hours of phone and no staff, once again. I was fine with being here on a birthday before, but this is even worse and crappier than the previous Fridays for the last month in which half the staff got to leave early and I’m still here.

          Yeah, I’m bitter.

    3. Sunshine Brite*

      I usually try to take my birthday off in any job I’ve had for that reason exactly. I have other things I want to be doing when celebrating me.

    4. yup*

      You can make it clear to them that it is personally important to you to have your birthday off of work each year, way in advance of your birthday, so that when the time comes they are not even surprised that you are gone on a vacation day.

  84. Jo*

    I applied for a position in one department at a company a few months ago. I didn’t get the job but the Hiring Manager was very position, cited that they decided to go with someone with more experience in a specific area but told me about another position at the company they were hiring for. I applied for that position that she suggested but I really did not have the experience for that either and did not get a phone call. Now fast forward, the organization is hiring for another position in a different department that I feel like I have more experience for and its under a different hiring manager. I applied already but I wondering if I should reach out that previous hiring manager I interviewed with. I only met her once, but I think the feedback was good. What do you think?

    1. yup*

      I don’t think reaching out is a good idea because it puts the former manager in an awkward position to recommend you for the job even though they didn’t select you; it comes off as pushy/trying to pull strings that aren’t yours to pull. If it comes up casually, mention that you enjoyed interviewing with the other manager and that you feel like working with them (even tangentially) would be a pleasure, but second to what work you’re going to do for the manager who ends up hiring you (since you work for them, not this previous connection).

  85. Cayce*

    So I applied for, and just accepted, a lateral transfer with my company. I also found out that I am expecting. What obligation do I have to the manager WRT notifying him that I will be taking leave at the end of the year? Should I have told them in the interview?

    1. yup*

      It’s a lateral transfer so you’ve already proven your value to the company. I think as much heads up as possible notifying the manager of your leave (and asking them to keep it in confidence) is the right thing to do.

  86. a-NO-NO-mous*

    I think I need to vent more than anything. I’ve been at my current job several years. I am salaried and working a 40 hour week is a rare blessing. We are under staffed and unable to get everything done that is requested of us. My boss is getting hammered from above and as a result we have constantly shifting priorities and everything is OMG we need to drop everything and switch to this task NOW! Then in the middle of that task we’ll get another OMG we need to put this other thing first! As a result it is taking weeks and even months (YEARS in a few cases) to deliver some of these supposedly do or die requests.

    It’s been worse than usual lately and my boss told me that I was salaried and could work more than 40 hours. I told her I DO work more than 40 hours. How often? Um…every freaking week! Last year I worked every freaking weekend and was putting in about 60 hrs regularly. I am always the last person here. I’m not working weekends anymore, but I’m minimally putting in 45 hours of office time. My co-workers all go home between 3 and 4 pm after an 8 hour day. Some just flat out refuse to work more than 40 or adjust their hours.

    I was dumbfounded. WTF? Really? Did you seriously just ask me that when you were regularly giving me comp days to make up for the craziness?

    So…why can’t I get things done? Why can Wakeen and Joaquin get this assignment done but I am telling her 2 weeks us not enough time to write a 350 document? Um…well Wakeen started on his tome MONTHS ago. Joaquin has been working on his tome for a month, and guess what, neither of those documents are done. I’m supposed to churn this out in 2 weeks? Oh hell no. I might have a shot at it if I was constantly being pulled off priority work for other priority work.

    So we agree on dates for delivery of 2 uber high priority items, and then when reviewing my other outstanding things one of those is now the #1 priority on top of the other #1 priority. This is why things don’t get done! I could go back to working 60 hour weeks and still not deliver all of the #1 priority items.

    I actually love my boss, but this is now out of control. I was totally insulted at the implication I must not be working hard enough, especially when my reputation is being a button buster. There are people who are giving bare minimum. Are they getting a talking to as well?

    I decided to keep a simple log of what I work on. This is mostly for my sanity, but my boss is interested in showing the folks up the chain what kinds of things are eating up our time and how long these tasks actually take. No one seems to have any clue of the time needed to deliver all 9f these items. My boss is even under estimating the time it takes to do these things and not factoring in just how disruptive and how many distractions we have between requests and day-to-day activities. I hoping with hard numbers that can change. So frustrating!

    1. Laura2*

      My response to this would be to start doing 40-hour weeks. Maybe you have an exercise class or other pressing engagement every day after work.

      1. yup*

        Agree to Laura2. You obviously love what you do or you wouldn’t be putting in these hours. “Having to be somewhere else” is a great excuse to not work yourself to death and set a limit to an otherwise endless workload.

    2. Helen of What*

      No one seems to have any clue of the time needed to deliver all 9f these items. My boss is even under estimating the time it takes to do these things and not factoring in just how disruptive and how many distractions we have between requests and day-to-day activities. I hoping with hard numbers that can change. So frustrating!

      Ugh, that part reminds me of my last job. I was working 55 hours a week on average, 6-7 days a week (and only cause I was all “screw you guys” and decided I needed to NOT work on Saturday). I was doing high-priority (as in, if I don’t do this we can’t function as a business) work that filled a 40 hour week, and then still being given less urgent/important work by the owner that was “very important”. Of course, since these things didn’t impact the day-to-day like my normal tasks, the were last priority. I basically lost my job because I couldn’t get those “important” tasks done every day when the vital tasks got 4x more complicated than they were when I started out AND I was expected to handle all the random emergencies that happened weekly. When I said I didn’t have the time to do those things? “Start earlier and end later.” At least you like your boss!

      1. a-NO-NO-mous*

        I couldn’t get my day-to-day tasks done which left some of them to reach critical mass. I started setting one day aside each week to do these small but vitally essential things. People over my head routinely attempt to pull me away from that thinking oh just a couple hours off task won’t matter. The thing is it never just a couple hours one time or just this one week. It’s EVERY WEEK.

        All of these #1 priorities aren’t things that will cause death and destruction or business failure if we don’t do them OMGNOW! The things we’re forced to neglect are the things that really cause problems on a widespread level.

        Darn. I wish I had thought to mention to my boss sure Wakeen and Joaquin are further along with their document, but they both have a huge backlog of essential tasks they are perpetually putting off that will bite us all in the butt in the long run, and no one likes slogging through backlogs of tedium.

  87. brightstar*

    I’m a newish supervisor who is wondering how to handle an employee who seems unhappy and has withdrawn from tslking to almost everyone.

    It’s a new employee whom I had to give a performance evaluation that wasn’t glowing. While I mentioned strengths, I had to detail performance issues that they disagreed with as being an issue. Since then, withdrawal and seeming disengagement. Their performance has improved since then and I’m trying to be encouraging. I feel like I’m not their favorite person amd that factors into it. I’m not sure trying to talk to them would help.

    1. Dasha*

      Have you tried a simple – Hey , I’ve noticed you haven’t seemed yourself lately. Is everything OK? Is there anything we need to discuss? I am free now or we could schedule a time to talk.

      I have a feeling this person may just respond with, “No, I’m fine,” but at least you tried.

    2. Jennifer*

      I don’t think talking to them would help. They feel like crap about themselves, and they SHOULD feel like crap about themselves. Of course they don’t want to talk to everyone–especially if how they relate to other humans was part of the critique. They’re trying to be perfect and focusing all of their energy on that and not getting into more trouble.

      (Been there, am this.)

      Honestly, just leave them alone. If they don’t want to talk, why do you want to force them to anyway?

    3. yup*

      Did the employee go into their evaluation knowing that they were performing sub-par, or did you blindside them with it? If it’s the latter, you have to take some responsibility for demoralizing them. Nobody wants to think they are doing a good job and find out that they aren’t out of the blue.

      If you are honestly being as forthcoming with them as possible about your expectations for their work and they still aren’t meeting the bar, there’s not much more you can do “Lead a horse to water…” comes to mind.

      1. brightstar*

        I made sure they knew they were performing sub-par, and what the evaluation would say.

        I figure it’s just not enough time for them to have completely recovered, and as they are performing better I’m making it a point to tell them that on a regular basis. I’m updating them once a week on their performance and since the evaluation, it’s has significantly improved.

    4. fposte*

      How long has this been going on? Is this an actual work problem affecting morale and productivity or is it just her thing? When you say withdrawn from talking to almost everyone, are people bringing this to you?

      I feel like your description could be a couple of different things. I can’t tell if you just want to feel like this employee likes you more, if she has a serious thing going on (that may not even have anything to do with her review), or if her demeanor is to the point where it’s a work problem.

      1. brightstar*

        It had actually started about a month before the evaluation. I don’t want to encroach on their privacy, and it may be a personal thing this person is dealing with, compounded by work issues. No one has mentioned it to me, I’ve just noticed that they aren’t talking to people like before.

        I honestly don’t care if my employees like me, as long as everyone is civil and getting the job done, that’s my major concern. The performance has improved, and I’ve explicitly told them that it has improved and how. I’m keeping an eye out for disengagement, but that hasn’t seemed to happen even if they are quieter.

    5. Nobody*

      It might help to meet with the employee and tell her that you have noticed that her performance has improved since the evaluation, and you’re pleased that she listened to your feedback and took action on it. I’m not sure what you mean by “trying to be encouraging,” but if you haven’t explicitly said you have noticed improvements, she may still think you’re not satisfied with her performance.

      I can’t tell from what you said whether her withdrawal/disengagement is affecting her work performance, or how long it has been going on, but if it’s not affecting her work performance and it hasn’t been a going on for long, I would recommend holding off on saying anything about that. Telling her that she is being too withdrawn and you want her to cheer up or whatever is only going to piss her off more, whereas if you let it go, she might just recover and get back to her usual self soon. On the other hand, if she is, say, refusing to cooperate with other team members or doing something that is negatively affecting her work performance, you need to address it. If that is the case, though, address specific behaviors that are problematic. Don’t just say something like, “Stop being withdrawn.”

      1. brightstar*

        Both you and fposte raise a good point, this is not affecting performance and I’m going to leave it alone.

    6. Dynamic Beige*

      “While I mentioned strengths, I had to detail performance issues that they disagreed with as being an issue.”

      So here’s a question for you: were the issues simple ones that were easy to fix? I had an annual review where… let’s just say it wasn’t pretty. Manager suggested I do X, as “Jane” had done it and it had improved her work substantially. I replied that I had already done X, as I had graduated from there. Jane also didn’t have the long commute that I did or the family commitments I did and I knew for a fact that all the courses Jane had taken, she wasn’t given time to attend all of them — even though they were night school courses. Because when something happened and we were all working late (again), you were expected to cancel your outside commitments that were considered hobbies — client deadlines were more important than your personal fun. So I sat there, knowing that what Manager wanted me to do wasn’t something I was able to do for several reasons and that Manager was either completely out of touch or didn’t give a crap and probably both. I think it was that review that set in motion that I was being too stubborn for my own good, trying to jam myself into a round hole and it was way past the time to leave.

      If your employee is arriving late, then getting up earlier is something they could and should do. If you suggested that your employee needs to pay for courses or a training programme in order to get to a place where they would be promotable — could they afford it? Or is it something that they would never be able to achieve? If, like another review I had one time somewhere else, you want your employee to dress more professionally, does their salary allow that? Do they have the resources (websites, information for consignment shops) to do it? Some people seem to be born knowing how to put together an outfit, others like myself need remedial education on that.

      If there had been nothing but “you’re doing a great job!” and then the review wasn’t like that, it’s also possible that your employee is just trying to process that. Someone I know was blindsided in a review and it sent them into therapy — which made them get to the point that they realised the job itself wasn’t working, the person they were working for was toxic/had a style that was not working for them and they had to get out.

  88. Mina*

    Weird situation: the top candidate for a position I’m hiring for sent thank you notes (very brief ones) to everyone except for me, the hiring manager. Any insights into why someone would do that?

    1. NoMoreSympathy*

      Have you been in contact with the person at all?

      I’m realizing that a lot of places are not clear to candidates as to who is the hiring manager. And the hiring managers are often the last loop in the interview process. Just my experiences. I went to one interview, where I was asked if I had spoken to the hiring manager or if he had contacted me–he hadn’t. They said, they would take my app pkg and send thier notes on, but the hiring manager will be in contact with me to decide if they are moving forward. Another instance, I’ve been to interviews where the interviewers make clear to me, that I’d be wasting my time to send them a follow up thank you–yet they can’t even give me a name as to who to send it to. I end up sending a thank you to who ever scheduled my interview. I’ve also been rejected by a hiring manager, who never even contacted me or spoken with me. The hr assistant I had been working with had a few follow up questions for me, so I was surprised when she inform me the hiring manager had rescinded the offer.

      1. Mina*

        Good question…yes, I initially contacted them and had a 30 minute phone interview. Then we exchanged emails prior to them coming in (I sent them the list of people they’d be meeting with, etc.) But yeah, I think it may still not be clear since we have kind of a flat organizational structure. What’s weird though, is why I didn’t get a note, even if the person just saw me as part of the team. Maybe it did get stuck in spam! I’ll try not to worry about it too much.

        1. Sadsack*

          You mentioned that you exchanged emails with this person, but I am not sure if you meant that you also interviewed him in person. Maybe he sent thank you notes to the people he actually met with and it did not occur to him to follow-up with you afterward because you had already exchanged correspondence.

    2. yup*

      If they really are a top candidate, it was a simple oversight on their part, nothing personal.

  89. Anon for this*

    I’m kind of bummed about my latest performance review. It wasn’t bad, exactly, but it wasn’t the glowing, effusive review I got the last time around, and it left me wondering where I went wrong. The most perplexing part was where my boss lowered my rating on “teamwork” because, in her opinion, I do too much work. It wasn’t that she thinks my work is rushed or sloppy — on the contrary, the one area where I got the top rating was for the quality of my work — but I guess she looks at it like it’s my fault that some of my coworkers aren’t carrying their share of the workload.

    My instinct was to be conciliatory and promise to go along with her improvement plan for me, which was to let the rest of the team do more of the work, but now I am second-guessing myself and wondering if I should have questioned this more. My experience has been that she is not very receptive to pushback, so I was afraid to antagonize her, but… Really? I do too much work? Maybe I should have asked for examples of when my excessive work caused problems, or which projects she would have liked me to blow off. I am also confused about why I frequently get praised and thanked by management and peers for getting a lot of work done, and now it is being used against me. I feel like I can’t win.

    My boss wants me to delegate more to my coworkers, but I really don’t think that’s my place. We all get our main assignments from the boss, and then pick up the smaller things as we get time, and I simply take more initiative to pick up those smaller things. My peers don’t give me orders, and I suspect they would resent me if I started giving them orders. I was disliked at my old job because people thought I was too bossy, so I have made a real effort to get people to like me here, and I don’t want to throw away the goodwill I have worked so hard to get.

    1. MsM*

      Maybe she feels your peers need to be developing these skills so that if you’re sidelined for some reason, the stuff you’d normally pick up doesn’t fall by the wayside. Or maybe what you see as “taking initiative,” your peers actually see as not giving them a chance – sure, they probably appreciate not having to do the work, and if they’re good team players, they’re happy to see it done well, but they may still wish you’d have more confidence in their ability and willingness to do it even if they don’t work at the same pace as you. If I were you, I’d start giving it a little more time before you jump on things, or saying stuff like “I’m happy to do this, but if someone else wants to or can help with X part, that’d be great.”

      1. Anon for this*

        Everyone has roughly equal opportunities to pick up the little things, but some just don’t take the initiative. Instead of jumping on these things when they finish their main assignments, they will surf the internet or play cell phone games, etc. Even on days when other people finish their main assignments a few hours earlier than I do, they don’t pick up these smaller tasks. They could if they wanted to, but they don’t.

        1. MsM*

          But that’s what I mean. Unless the things have to get done that day, it may not be the worst thing in the world if they sit until tomorrow and your coworkers can start on them with new energy. And if the things do have to get done and you don’t have the bandwidth to do them because you’re still working on your main assignment, you shouldn’t be conditioning them to think you’ll cover for them in case the day ever comes when you really are too slammed to do anything else or otherwise unavailable.

          1. Anon for this*

            It may be the case in some situations that other people would do things if I didn’t get to them so quickly, but there are a lot of things that other people have ample opportunity to do and they still don’t. There are certain things that have to be done once per calendar month. Some of these things have not been done for April yet. Other people have had 17 days to do these things but have not touched them. So when I do them next week, nobody can say I didn’t give anyone else a chance. Plus, we work rotating shifts, so there are times when I work the beginning of the week or the early shift and get the first chance to do something, but other times when I work the end of the week or the late shift and others get the first chance.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      “My boss wants me to delegate more to my coworkers, but I really don’t think that’s my place. ”

      She’s telling you that it IS your place. Don’t ignore that just because you don’t want to do it. My office set-up is a little different, where our entry-level people are supposed to ask senior level people for work, and then go to the manager if no one has anything. The point is we don’t want Jack to hoard 40 hours worth of billable work while Tom is sitting there charging to overhead. Tom could possibly split up that 40 hours with Jack, and in a couple days, more work for both of them could be available.

      It sounds like your boss needs to split the assignments more evenly, but you doing your part to delegate is part of how she is going to accomplish that.

      1. Anon for this*

        I actually am one of the most junior employees here, so I don’t think the more senior employees would be receptive to me bossing them around. And really, there is always plenty of work to go around (none of which is externally billable). I work hard all day long and could still find another 12 hours’ worth of work to do at the end of the day. The main assignments are the most urgent things with strict deadlines, but there are always things that need to be done any time this week, any time this month, any time this year, etc., and we have never run out as long as I’ve worked here.

        I do think some of my coworkers might be receptive to me suggesting assignments. Some people would just prefer to surf the internet as much as possible, but I think some of the more inexperienced people might actually not know how to figure out what things with longer-term deadlines they should work on when they’re done with their main assignments. I suppose I could help these people figure out what they can do to contribute after they finish their main assignments, which is what I promised my boss I will do.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Maybe you could suggest that your boss give the other employees a heads up and add managing department work to part of your duties? I don’t think it matters if you’re senior or junior, but if you are good at staying on task and managing your workload, she could tell the group that she has asked you to do this and to expect “Anon for this” to be divvying up more work around the department. I definitely understand not wanting to do that, but it sounds like it would be to your advantage to take on the responsibility.

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      Maybe she’s also addressing it with your peers who aren’t doing as much work. It doesn’t sound like it’s being used against you, per se.

    4. Sparrow*

      You can clarify this with your boss, but she may not necessarily want you to give orders to your peers. Perhaps just offer to see if any of them want to pick up the small piece of work. In my work, that’s something that could be accomplished via email. Or if you have a weekly status/staff meeting maybe you could bring it up there to see who has bandwidth to take on more work.

    5. Mina*

      I know you said she’s not receptive to pushback, but it sounds like you need to find a way to gently approach her for more clarity. Otherwise I think it become a situation where you are constantly second guessing your decisions to complete projects, and that’s not a good place to be…I have a hard time with this so I’m not one to give advice on how, but trying to get to the specifics behind what is “too much work” and which projects/tasks she wants you to leave untouched is your best course of action. You could even approach it as a general discussion about what she sees as your role on the team.

  90. Calla*

    I completely forgot about this!!

    My fiancee, who has been looking to get out of her home health aide job on and off for like, 2 years, finally found something! It’s temp to perm, but the “temp” part is a one-year contract so even if it doesn’t go perm (fingers crossed it does), she’s had time to save and experience outside home healthcare to let her find something else.

    Also, changes are coming to my job, and a re-org/reexamination of responsibilities is likely going to lead to me taking on some things I’ll enjoy and getting a promotion. So hopefully I won’t dread my job anymore :)

  91. TheExchequer*

    So I did the professional thing and sent a thank you email to the company I interviewed at last week, even though I am 95% sure I wouldn’t take the job. Even though they said they would make a decision by the middle of this week, I haven’t heard from them.

    I have a phone interview today, but it’s around the same area as I’m working now, so the commute would be the same. On the other hand, if I get paid a fair wage on time and respected for taking on more work rather than scolded for not juggling two and a half full time jobs exactly the way my bosses think I should, maybe it’s worth it.

    Our customer calls this morning have me saying thank goodness it’s Friday!

    1. Steve G*

      Can I ask what you wrote in the email, especially since you aren’t interested? I have been having a bad case of writer’s block with thank you notes. I can write cover letters all day, but a thank you note? IDK what to say.

      1. Fuzzy*

        “Thank you again for meeting with me this afternoon. I really enjoyed learning more about the Teapot making process and how I might become a part of your team. Please let me know if there is anything else you need from me, and I look forward to hearing from you in [agreed upon timeframe].
        Best,
        Fuzzy”

      2. TheExchequer*

        Since the interviewer was worried about the fact I had no experience in the field, I wrote something like “Thank you for the opportunity. I know I don’t have the experience or reputation you’re looking for, but I believe that I would quickly gain both if you offered this position to me.” Then I told him how reliable and hardworking I was and closed the e-mail.

        I figured since there was a 5% circumstance I would take the job under, I might as well try.

    2. TheExchequer*

      2nd phone interview on Thursday! And I will continue job hunting this weekend. (Why is it always easier to job hunt at the library than at home?)

  92. Steve G*

    My BS meter is going off. I just got quoted a salary about $15K less than I make now + bonuses. I asked about the bonuses, and this was the response:

    “As I have explained to you the other day, there is a team component as well as individual when it comes to bonuses. So you will certainly be in the appropriate range when combined with the base salary.”

    There was no explanation the other day about how the actual bonuses work. Why can’t I just get a schedule? You bring in $100K, you get $2K, margin is above 30%, you get 1% of revenue, or something like that?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      It IS BS, but I don’t think they are BS-ing you, if that makes sense. (I agree with your irritation, but this seems in line with how I have seen things done.) A long time ago, I interviewed somewhere that had a bonus structure for all professional positions, and they didn’t give me a schedule. They did say that you could expect it to be in the X-X% range, but said it was never guaranteed and depended on business conditions as well as individual performance. They didn’t give any split on company vs. individual, either. That was a big reason I didn’t take the job, because it was more like 70% of my current pay, and I couldn’t afford to take a weekly pay cut at the time.

      1. Steve G*

        This company also has a 1.5 out of 5 on glassdoor. Some of the people were nice but one of the higher ups was extremely negative, even by my cynical/sarcastic standards:-). It just really bugs me that they aren’t negotiating better / offering more to offset the bad ratings/negativity.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Yeah, I had a job once where they quoted me a low salary but then talked up the bonus potential.

      We made our “monthly” bonus all of twice in the two and a half years I was there. Granted, I’m in retail and retail is always sketchy, but still be wary.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Yeah, I would think, “If you’re so certain I’ll make that much, why can’t you write that into my base salary?” Way too much uncertainty and discretion of people who may or may not be on your side involved in bonuses to rely on them.

      1. Steve G*

        Word to that! I still haven’t responded to their 2nd interview request for Monday. I’m 90% sure I don’t want to at this point.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’m betting they don’t want to provide the schedule so they won’t be tied to it if they change their system.

  93. NoMoreSympathy*

    I have a friend who is seconds away from being terminated. I met her about 7 years ago we both were hired the same time (different departments and supervisors). At the end of that year she was fired because of an incident. I felt really bad for her and believed she had been treated unfairly. Fast forward, she found a new job and has been there about 5 years –but they keep switching her around because of the same issues she had when we work together. So now, i see it’s not so much her employers but her. I’ve tried to gently tell her she needs to change her attitude but she gets very defensive. She now says she doesn’t care, if they fire her because she will collect unemployment, file a lawsuit…yada…yada. Yesterday, I tried to remind her that eventually she wants to get in graduate school and work in a more senior role in this field and she burning bridges every where she goes. I’m trying to be a friend but she has lost sympathy from me.

    1. Sparrow*

      There’s only so much you can do from your end. Unfortunately, if she’s not willing to change on her own it won’t happen no matter how much you talk to her.. Hopefully she will get to the point where she wants to change and will remember some of the advice you gave.

  94. Anon,*

    I have my first pre-employment (yay!) drug screen next week. What should I know (it’ll be clean, but hi, anxiety)

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yes, don’t flush! It is so hard to stop the flush response, but it nulls the test if you accidentally do. The last screen I did the attendant said, “Don’t flush, I get paid the big bucks to flush for you.”
        It is a weird experience, but the attendant will walk you through step by step. Just be ready to follow the instructions you are given.

        1. TheLazyB*

          I don’t understand! Do you not pee into a urine sample container? I guess maybe that’s too easy to fake?

          1. BeckyDaTechie*

            You do, but they also put food coloring in the toilet so you can’t water down a sample if you somehow smuggle in a vial of ‘clean’ pee, etc.

            Here’s how mine went: nice older lady walked me to a restroom and explained about the dye in the water, handed me a sample cup and showed me where to put it, noted the line on the side I had to fill to, and left the bathroom after 3 admonitions not to flush. So, I did my thing, set the cup where she needed it, stopped myself from flushing, and washed my hands. She came in once I unlocked the door, took the temperature of the cup contents and noted it on the form, checked and flushed the toilet, and we signed the paperwork.

      1. Helen*

        Suddenly, I’m curious! (I’ve never had to get tested nor would I be likely to need to be tested, but the whole thing boggles my mind.)

    1. OfficePrincess*

      Drink lots of water before you go. If you can’t produce a sample in a certain amount of time they kick you out and you have to reschedule. (Hi shy bladder here)

    2. Steve G*

      On my first one the girl giving the tests came into the bathroom with me. It felt really weird going to the bathroom with a girl standing right behind me. But that has never happened again. So if the person giving the test follows you into the bathroom, please have the guts to say “do you really need to be in here!”

    3. Retail Lifer*

      If you’re a weirdo like me and take a spectrum of herbal supplements, do some reading about what they might test as. Apparently valerian root can test as valium, but my last employer apparently didn’t mind that. And there’s that Seinfeld episode where Elaine tested positive for opium after eating something with poppy seeds in it, although…that was Seinfeld.

      1. fposte*

        Also Mythbusters–and it didn’t take very much. So lay off the poppy seeds for a while just in case.

    4. yup*

      if your urine is dark, you’re dehydrated. If it’s mostly clear, you’re well hydrated. If it’s cloudy, you have an infection.

      Drink 1-2 Liters (32-64 oz, or 4-8 cups) of water a day, it’s good for your kidneys :)

      Nothing to do with drug screenings, but if you don’t do drugs, I don’t think you need to worry, haha.

    5. Nicole*

      Did they tell you it was a urine test? Because at my most recent pre-employment drug screen they CUT MY HAIR! Granted, they took it from underneath but I was shocked as that has never happened to me before so heads up!

  95. Blue Anne*

    Question for folks who work in business/finance/big corporates: is having a decent golf game still useful?

    As discussed up thread, my firm has a bit of an old-boys atmosphere and I’m considering taking it up (also I live in Scotland so I feel like I should know the rules at least) but I’m wondering if it’s an outdated thing outside of this one conservative firm.

    1. Malissa*

      I think it is still relevant. But my bosses go to about 50 golf tournaments a year and network.

    2. MaryMary*

      I’ve been considering taking up golf too. In my industry, it seems like a lot of sales and networking happen over golf. And it has to be better than sitting at a desk on Friday afternoons!

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      If you’re interested in playing golf, then try a few lessons and see if you like it for its own self. It will take years of practice to get to a point where you will be good enough. I mean, yes, I think for certain segment of business, knowing how to play golf is an asset — but you have to know how to play. If you’re some kind of duffer, you won’t be invited back to that same foursome again. There are charity networking tournaments and all kinds of other ways but golf is an expensive game to play and, if you don’t like it or don’t have some ability to play it, you are going to hate the whole thing of it. If your company does conferences, or incentive travel, there are often golf packages built into that from what I’ve seen. Some clients choose their conference site based on what the golf is like nearby.

      At SecondJob, one of the partners (yes the “sales” partner) had a membership at one of the top clubs in the area, tens of thousands of dollars per year and routinely took potential clients there or just met top CEOs there, because those guys also had a membership. But, they sold, whether out on the course or having drinks at the 19th. About 10 years ago, one of my former colleagues would go to a course, get assigned to a random foursome and he said that it was so easy to just chat with the others, it was a natural topic of conversation — what do you do? Oh really? I’ve been thinking about revamping my website… a few hours later, new client. But, that guy was a decent player who could hold his own with the others. And, as a freelancer could go in the middle of the afternoon when executives might also decide to head out for a round.

  96. Stargazer*

    Just need to vent.

    I’m really, really frustrated with my job, to the point that I resent almost everything about it. I like the actual tasks of the job itself, but the commute, pay, people, and boss are driving me crazy. I drive farther than anyone else who works here (35 minutes one way, not horrible, but an hour-plus on I-95 every single weekday for almost three years got old a while ago). I have asked several times if I could work from our parent office, which is ONE MILE from my home, but my boss, a mediocre manager who hides in his office and won’t make decisions or commit to anything, keeps pushing me off. I’ve shown time and time again on snow days, etc. that I get just as much done, if not more, when I work from home but that hasn’t changed anything. I’m tempted to stop being a good little polite worker and just TELL him I’m working from the other office on slow days, but I suspect that will prompt him to suddenly decide to pull rank and tell me no. I’ve also complained, as has my predecessor, about the other two women who sit in this part of the office. They’re catty and do things like ignore me and email each other about me while I’m sitting three feet away. There is NO REASON for me to have to work from this office five days a week. We also just got a new system that allows everyone to smoothly and easily access all of their content remotely. My boss wouldn’t even let me switch seats in the office because there was some concern about “splitting up the department.” Right, like there’s SO much collaboration and teamwork to speak of. I’m actually trying to get a job in a different department back at the parent office, but that’s going very slowly because we have to wait on some bigwig I don’t know, who’s dragging his feet. It’ll be a bit of a pay cut but I’m okay with that.

    Just a few more hours until I can leave for the weekend.

    1. Colette*

      Was the job at your current office when you took it? You seem to be focusing on the fact that the location is far from you, but they’re not obligated to let you work out of the other location. Some managers like to have people in the office, some offices don’t have empty desks, and there are legitimate advantages to sitting near the people you work with.

      1. Stargazer*

        It’s not just the commute. If my co-workers weren’t catty and there actually was teamwork and collaboration going on, I wouldn’t complain nearly as much about having to drive here when another office is so much closer. My overall issue is that I feel like my boss isn’t interested in (or skilled at) keeping his employees happy, preferring to avoid conflict and hope problems just go away so he doesn’t have to deal with them. But if I were to try to deal with my problem myself, by arranging a work situation that works better for me with minimal impact to my department, I feel like he’d decide to go on a power trip and start acting “managerial” and order me to stay at the current location. I’ve made smaller requests, like asking to move desks, but was told no. The working remotely (and it’s not even that remotely since it’s with our other team) is a last resort request.

    2. yup*

      “commute, pay, people, and boss are driving me crazy”

      I think that’s like 4 negatives versus the 1 positive (the actual work). Can you do the actual work for another org? Maybe time to look at what’s available.

    3. Nobody*

      Can you suggest a trial run of working from the other office, say, for two weeks, just to see how it goes? You can tell your boss that if working from the other office ends up being a problem, you’ll stop asking, but if it works out, you can discuss making it a long-term arrangement. That might make it easier for him to make a decision, because you’re not asking him to make a huge commitment, but just to let you try it for two weeks.

  97. Elisabeth*

    I started my job eight months ago; since I started, my first supervisor quit, her replacement was fired, and now they have pushed me and one other coworker onto another team. None of these changes were announced to our team — even to our most senior member — until they’d already been decided. We had no input. Higher-ups made and then canceled meetings with us and ignored our emails for months.

    The supervisor for my new team is an abrasive micromanager who has dismissed me from all the duties I was assigned when hired (and have historically performed well). She repeatedly promises us new responsibilities and then just does them herself — over and over again, no matter how many times we ask. She makes changes to our work without telling us, sometimes drastic changes. Our titles were Senior Teapot Makers, but now we’re being treated as Assistant Teapot Makers on a good day — and our new manager very clearly prioritizes our work well below that of her primary department. Her manager loves her because she toes the company line (and we suspect our department is considered nothing more than an annoying burden).

    All of the members of my original team have quit or are in the process of doing so — including my only immediate coworker, who’s putting in her notice on Monday. I’m the only one left; I’m miserable, I cry all the time (at home! not at work!), my sanity has taken a deep nose-dive.

    I have enough experience in the teapot industry to quit and freelance instead. It would be a struggle, and I’d lose my benefits and probably take a paycut in the short term. It would certainly be stressful, but not the level of stress I’m living now.

    If I quit, it would mean no one working in my immediate department besides our new supervisor (although she could probably switch a few people over from her side). I’d kind of feel bad about leaving her in the lurch — but also I wouldn’t at all. And quitting to freelance — not even for another job! — is such a slap in the face. Do I owe these people anything? Should I just tough it out?

    1. Colette*

      Get out. You’re miserable, and you have another plan. If you don’t want to leave them in the lurch, you could offer a longer notice period (I.e. A month).

    2. Stargazer*

      I don’t think freelancing has to be slap in the face. Sure, it’s more complicated in terms of having to set up all your benefits yourself and not having as steady of a paycheck, but there are lots of perks to freelancing–not the least of which is getting to bow out of situations like the one you’re in!

      1. Elisabeth*

        True! I more meant it as a slap in the face to my manager — like “I hate this so much, I’ll leave even though I don’t have another full-time job.”

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          If I were your manager, I’d see that as a career move for you. You’re great and you have enough experience to work for yourself – that’s a great thing, not a slap in the face! Any sane manager is going to be very happy for you having reached this point in your career.

    3. yup*

      Sounds like you are being “siloed” in the midst of organizational power shift. To stay is death to your career, unless you can align yourself with the new people in charge. I had to jump from one of these situations because I went from being one of the most well-connected employees to getting almost no communication from outside my immediate department. It was death to stay.

    4. Lulubell*

      Is there a reason you wouldn’t look for another full-time job instead? It’s always easier to find a job when you have a job, and you have more bargaining power. Of course, if freelancing is your dream, now is a great time to start. But I’d probably try to find another full-time job first, if that were an option.

  98. S*

    Next week is my last week at my current job! I love this office and I’m sad to go, but it’s also time to move on to other things. My office is very close-knit and birthdays / good-byes are really big deals. I’ve learned to love it, but I’m also afraid that I might get a little emotional during my good-bye. Tips for keeping your cool when everyone is saying how much they’ll miss you?

    1. GOG11*

      It’s generally a good idea to keep displays of emotion low-key in the work place, but if tearing up while saying goodbye wouldn’t be viewed negatively in your office, could you work on accepting that it’s okay to show emotion in that context? Or do you think that it will be viewed negatively and you need ways to keep from showing too much of what you’re feeling?

      1. S*

        Oh, no, I don’t feel like it would be viewed negatively, but at the same time, I would probably just get really embarrassed by it and that’s not necessarily what I want my last interactions with co-workers to be like.

        I’m also the youngest in the office and while that has never ever been a problem here, where senior staff is 5-6 years older at the most, I’m aware that a display of emotion like that coming from the youngest staff member would possibly be looked at weirdly in other offices.

        1. GOG11*

          If it won’t be viewed negatively, would you be okay with allowing yourself to get outwardly emotional (in reasonable ways, obviously not yelling, sobbing uncontrollably, etc.)? It might not be appropriate in other offices, but other offices may not be as tightly-knit, either, so they’d be less likely to bring about those emotions in the first place. Yes, this might be a good opportunity to learn how to control them completely for the future, but I don’t know that it will come up for you again unless it’s in the type of office that wouldn’t frown upon that sort of thing. I hope that makes sense.

        2. GOG11*

          Posted too soon – you’re going to be doing a lot of wrapping up (or maybe you already have been). Maybe looking at those activities as a transition will help you to wrap your head around everything, move you along in the process and help you process some of your emotions ahead of time. I would also recommend cleaning out most of your stuff ahead of the day when you’ll be saying goodbye to coworkers because I imagine packing everything up could be a pretty emotional thing and doing it all around the same time might be too overwhelming.

          In a previous open thread, someone recommended acknowledging and accepting that you might cry. If you stop wasting energy on fighting it, you may end up relaxing and letting go enough to not end up crying after all (my paraphrasing is butchering it, unfortunately).

  99. It's tired, and I'm late*

    For the first time ever, I’m thinking of throwing my hat in the ring for a job even though I’m not actively job searching. I’m happy where I am and had planned to stay for at least another couple of years before starting to look at other options, but I just saw a job posting that’s a really good fit, and I figured, why not?

    My one hesitation is that they want someone to work from their office in Location A (in another country), but would consider allowing someone to work from Locations B, C, or D. I am not within commuting distance of any of these places and can’t move due to spouse’s highly specialized job. I reached out to a couple of people I know who work for this company, and they said people in that job title work from home all the time. I’m not sure if I should contact the hiring manager to ask if this would be a possibility for the current opening, or just apply and address the fact that I’d have to work from Location E in the cover letter. Thoughts?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I don’t know if this is good advice or not, but I’d inquire with the hiring manager first and get all of the details. Applications and cover letters can be draining, so I wouldn’t want to waste my time if there was no possibility.

      I might just be drained from doing a million applications and cover letters myself, though.

    2. Anon E Mouse*

      I would definitely contact them expressing your interest and include what you have heard from other people in order to determine if they might accept someone in that role that is in a work from home situation. Even better would be if one of those friends had a friend that could introduce you to the hiring manager. If it sounds like a good role, there’s no harm in finding out more information.

      1. It's tired, and I'm late*

        Coolbeans, thank you both! I was leaning that way but I’ve never applied to a job that wasn’t in my current location before, so I wasn’t 100% sure. I’ll see if one of these contacts could connect me with the HM, too.

  100. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    Hi all,
    It’s been three weeks since an on-site interview, and nearly two weeks since the decision deadline for a job (it was a fast turnaround). I was told I would be reimbursed around a week after my on-site…but we’re now hitting 3 weeks and nothing has arrived to my home. I’m out 1/2 a month of pay for my travel expenses, and I have everything in writing. I’m not even sure if I would want to take the job at this point if I was offered it. How should I approach this situation? I feel like it’s awkward to ask about the status of a reimbursement, when no offer/update on their timeline has been sent to me for nearly two weeks.

    1. yup*

      If it’s a big company, their accounting/payroll is probably tons of red tape. This is an awkward situation, though, because no job yet, either. Since it’s been only 3 weeks, maybe hold out one more week? If you said you have the documentation that states they will pay you back, you can always reach back out to that company and ask them to honor their word anytime later down the road, without risking losing the job that you may or may not get. I don’t think they are under any legal obligation to pay you back, though. Hopefully they just offer you the job and you get both!

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        They aren’t under a legal obligation, but I have emails and signed paperwork saying I would be reimbursed. I’m really regretting it at this point…I was nervous about out-of-pocket expenses because of possible delays. At this point I don’t think I would accept an offer anyways, since I am moving forward with new prospects closer to home (this one was very, very out of state for me).

        1. fposte*

          The less of a deal you make it, the less of a deal it is. “I just wanted to check in on the travel reimbursement–do you know what the timeline is, and is there somebody I should be contacting about it? Thanks.”

    2. Colette*

      Have you confirmed they have everything they need to reimburse you? I wouldn’t tie it to the job or an offer, just ask when you should expect to be reimbursed.

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        Yep; all I needed to do was sign paperwork confirming the amount. Got a photo copy of it as well.

  101. Not Today Satan*

    Why do y’all think that so many employers make you fill out a paper application when you get to the interview? I really don’t get it. (I mean a full application with education and job history, etc.)

    1. Retail Lifer*

      We have policies that require an application to be on file, but I don’t know why. It’s all just a regurgitation of your resume. At least for an online app you can cut and paste directly from your resume.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If it was for an entry job, some places want to make sure you can read and write and didn’t have someone else fill out the online application. But doing the whole application again is overkill.

    3. Sarah Nicole*

      In order to be compliant with laws regarding hiring practices, records of applications have to be kept for a certain amount of time. Many companies don’t have an online application tool and don’t want to pay to implement and maintain one. It costs nothing aside from paper and ink to have an applicant fill out a paper application that they can file away whether or not they hire a person. I think it comes down to cost and technology for most companies.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Actually, they have to keep ALL the records, so they couldn’t use this as a way to get around keeping the other materials. It would just give them a second set of things to keep.

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Oh, I was just saying that for those companies with no online application, those employers with paper ones get by cheaper and without having to implement an online system. I sort of read it like X company posts a job, you send in your resume and cover letter, then go to an interview and fill out a paper application – no online portion. I’m assuming they would just keep all of that in a paper file.

    4. yep*

      Ugh, I hate when I’m handed a job application when I arrive to an interview. Maybe to give the interviewers time, I don’t know but atleast warn me so I get there 10 minutes before the interview and not 5 minutes beforehand. Or simply have a copy uploaded to the website

  102. Elizabeth West*

    Nothing of note workwise, except I’ll soon be remoting in from abroad. We’ll see how that goes. Watch me get stopped in customs for having two computers. Meep!

    If I can even go–my knee exploded last Friday for some unknown reason, and I can barely walk. I went to the doctor and he said he thought I’d pulled a muscle. He told me not to use the stairs. Well, it was feeling better, but this morning it popped in my sleep and woke me up and now I’m back to hobbling. And guess what? The elevator at work is broken.

    Wish me luck…. :\

      1. fposte*

        I felt there was more than just applicant craziness in there. Certainly a goodly helping of unintended humor on the writer’s part, as well as some great examples of really bad hiring and training. (And I hope he’s paying really well to have only one person staff a stately home!)

    1. Malissa*

      Ouch, ouch ouch! At least you should be able to get a wheelchair ride and priority boarding at the airport.

      1. fposte*

        Definitely worth asking for this, Elizabeth. And also, drugstores have knee braces, the low-profile kind that can just slide on under pants–you might find one really helpful.

        1. Shell*

          Although it might be worth getting one of those heavier duty ones–the ones with a patella cutout and spring reinforcement for the ligaments.

          They’re hot and itchy, no lie, but when I busted my knee, I still felt like Superman with one of those on.

          Feel better Elizabeth!

          1. fposte*

            Getting slightly adrift here, but the drugstore ones seem to come in several varieties: the lowest is the sleeve type, which is basically a pull-on Ace bandage, which I find pretty much useless, but there’s a type that has a patella cutout and modest side bracing but still slide on under pants, and I love, love, love those.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I’m wearing one of those Ace ones now–all it really does is provide a bit of compression.

              I bought one of those, but my knee was so swollen it didn’t fit. It still might not–it said large, and my legs have muscles–I’m not a stick insect! Why didn’t the damn doctor just give me something! If I have to wear one, I’m wearing leggings and it will be OUTSIDE my pants. And I’ll limp like hell. Maybe they’ll feel sorry for me and I’ll get an upgrade. ;) But the flying isn’t the problem–I have to walk everywhere I go when I’m there. Why is everything going wrong!?

              If I need a walking stick, they have ones I can afford at James Smith and Sons. I can’t afford any of their brollies (approaching £200, gah), but they have sticks at £25 or so. Then if I’m going slow and anyone gives me grief/tries to mug me, I can beat them with it.

              Or, the universe could just STOP WHACKING ME WITH THE CRAP STICK.

        1. Sunday*

          Call your airlines, and ask for a wheelchair due to an injury. It makes things much easier. Also preps them to perhaps find a better seat for you (where you might be able to stretch out your leg). And they are more likely to be ready to get you quickly from one gate to another when you transfer flights rather than assuming you didn’t make it.

          Tuesday is really soon. Does your doc have an after hours service? If you might need pain meds (even just for the flight) you’ll want time to pick them up and to have the prescription with you. I’d call and ask for advice. I’d also look at what your insurance can do for you if you want some support while there. And if there’s a PT or an MD affiliated with the rink or club, I’d check in with that person insofar as possible, too, for advice.

          Have a great time.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      Aside from the health problem (poor Elizabeth!), it’ll be fun to work from abroad, no? Is this a temporary assignment or a vacation?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It’s a personal trip for an event, but month end is so busy and I didn’t intend to go back this soon, so I volunteered to do this. I also would be way short on PTO at year-end if I didn’t.

  103. Jessica*

    I’ve installed StayFocusd on my browser, but I’m still having a hard time focusing on work at work. Any tips, besides ‘just bucked down and do your work?’ And, any recommendations for an timer that I can install to my desktop?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Considering how many replies I’ve posted on here today, I can’t help. But I will be checking back for suggestions!

    2. Anon E Mouse*

      White noise helps me, or podcasts, depending what I’m doing. With mindless tasks, listening to podcasts is a nice break. If something requires more focus, I like white noise. I use http://simplynoise.com/ and choose “pink noise” with oscillation.

      Do you take walks or have the ability for a brisk one to clear your head? Sometimes that can help.

      Doodling can also help. Even if you just draw a little stick figure to get something “fun” out of the way before buckling down can be tremendously helpful. I hope this helps!

    3. GOG11*

      In another open thread earlier on in the year someone suggested timing yourself. And then next time you do that task, see if you can beat your time. If the urgency of a deadline helps motivate you but there’s no deadline, I imagine this could help provide some encouragement to get it done.

      If you’re having difficulty staying focused because a lot of what you do is vague and poorly defined (and the idea of DOING ALL THE THINGS is insurmountable) and getting started is more of the issue, I find that mapping out my plans in action items/things I could see or hear helps me tremendously. So, instead of “do project X” you would map out “run X report to obtain Y data,” “write first draft of proposal, using Teapot Handle Proposal as a template,” and “find 3 sources on best practices in teapot glazing.” It might be just another step for some people, but for me it really helps.

    4. E*

      I like Spotify’s radio stations, there’s some for “focus” that are perfect for background noise on headphones while I keep working away.

      1. Mints*

        I was overthinking this way too much one time – but besides the very good Pomodoro strategy – I think Pandora or sitting in front of a window is good for productivity because my mind will need a teeny tiny break, like I wrote an email, and I want a second before re-reading it, so I look out the window or listen to half a song, then re-read and edit. But, if it’s totally stimulation free, I will read a 20 page article on the Atlantic instead, and get super duper distracted for like half an hour.
        My point is, I’m pro-music at work (headphones if needed)

    5. Bentoro*

      I use tomato timer for pomodoros. It sits on the task bar and pops up when it’s time for a break.

  104. Anon E Mouse*

    Hello! It’s been about a month since my update at this thread (https://www.askamanager.org/2015/03/open-thread-march-13-2015.html) with my lament on my boss picking my time apart, and not much has changed. (Backstory to my TL;DR post over there: I’m in a telecommute role, full-time, and the contract is “at least 40 hours/week” but he wants more every week regardless of life circumstances.) We rarely communicate (I have a few other coworkers I work with directly on projects, and he oversees us all) and it seems as if our relationship is irrevocably damaged since I said I wouldn’t be able to work 55 hour weeks like my colleague has done on occasion. I’m not sure how to fix this or if I should if he won’t put in theffort, too.

    I do call him and give him updates on what I’m working on when time presents an opening for either of us, in addition to our time sheet policy that requires weekly reports on tasks and time put into work, but he generally just seems to be either too busy to converse or hyper-focused on every mistake I’ve made. It’s been hard moving from having a boss like last year before my layoff who frequently was pleased with my work and praised me for it to having one I only hear from when he’s unhappy with me.

    I’ve basically just kept my nose clean and put in as much time as I can (42-43 hours/week on average) and haven’t heard any other complaints about it. I still like the job situation – working from home is SO much more productive for my type of work than an office – but I think in a few years will move on to something else or maybe be self-employed by then. I have had tons of freelance projects coming in – some I’ve had to pass onto other people – and so once I have my 3-6 month savings cushion, I may take the plunge. If that doesn’t work out, FlexJobs is always a possibility. We’ll see.

  105. HR Director*

    What are your thoughts about attending an interview wearing obviously expensive clothing and/or accessories (I’m thinking a watch worth thousands of dollars, $700 shoes, a very expensive handbag, etc.) Alternatively, does it matter if a person is wearing cheap clothing and/or accessories? Assuming that the interviewees are neat, clean and presentable does it not matter at all? Does the position (level or type) the person is interviewing for make a difference?

    I’ve heard comments such as, “they don’t need this job, they have a $2000 handbag” or ones like, “she had a INEXPENSIVE STORE NAME suit on.” I am wondering if others have expereinceed these types of comments (that seem to always be about women’s attire and acessories.)

    1. fposte*

      Next thing you know they’ll be driving to interviews in several thousand dollars’ worth of car!

      I think this is abhorrent and most frequently sexist. If somebody’s clothing isn’t appropriate for the job, whether it be because a ballgown and a tiara are too much or it’s a job where polish is really required and the suit didn’t fit very well, that’s a legitimate point to bring up. But otherwise, if somebody gives a damn about where an applicant bought the clothing or bag (and how the hell do they know how it was acquired anyway?) they need to go watch Real Housewives of Wherever instead of judging people for actual jobs.

    2. A*

      My personal opinion is if someone’s a great candidate, I don’t care whether they are independently wealthy (expensive handbag) or not. As an employee, I don’t really want to know what my coworkers’ financial situations are like.

    3. Stephanie*

      Eh. That stuff could have been consignment or thrift or a gift. If they didn’t need the job, they wouldn’t be interviewing.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        They may have worked part time at a fancy retailer and got the “damaged” items for pennies. Or it could have been gifts from the ex.
        But I would be put off a bit. Right or wrong, I would wonder if the candidate would fit in with the current workplace culture. Unless everyone was wearing $2k shoes, then it would be fine.

    4. Afiendishthingy*

      Shouldn’t really be hiring based on financial need anyway! And yeah, totally sexist and obnoxious.

  106. bike_whisperer*

    Hi all,
    My position has recently been terminated (about three weeks ago), and I’ve been unable to find a job similar to the one I left ever since. I guess this is not that unusual, but it’s rather frustrating and depressing for me because I’m running out of money and have no jobs lined up as of now.

    I got called by one of the prospective employers today (it’s an admin position at a bank), and they found that I’d be a good fit – except that I’m graduating this summer, and they only want to hire students/part-timers. They’re probably looking for someone long-term. Now I’m terribly afraid that I will not get hired for these type of positions for such a short time – which shouldn’t be a problem, I guess; I can always work retail for that time, or take somethings temporary (most of my jobs had been retail or serving before I got the one mentioned above). My only concern is that applying for office jobs will be difficult if I start working in retail again – that is, if I don’t have a “continuous office job history”, if that makes sense. Do you think my concerns are valid? Have you ever found that prospective employers either look down on people coming from a retail background or dismiss their application? I don’t know if I should keep trying for office jobs for this short time when I’m running out of money and probably wouldn’t get hired anyway.

    1. yup*

      Take the bank job and be forthcoming with them that you will still accept part-time work even after you graduate.

      This is the truth. You are desperate right now. And they want a loyal part-timer!

      1. bike_whisperer*

        Thank you for your answer! :) They promised they’d call me back around Tuesday, so that’s the next time I’m talking to them. I will definitely ask if this could be a possibility.

  107. Ineloquent*

    I’m frustrated with my job. My opinion of my direct manager has been steadily declining over the last several months, and I’m hearing more and more from my coworkers about how they think that he’s ineffective, lacks key knowledge, dismissive, insulting, etc. At first I thought that his flaws were due to not having managerial experience before now. However, it turns out that he has managed before, just in a different industry. The silver lining is that he’s disclosed to me that he’s probably not going to stay in his position for more than about a year. As suspected, he views his current gig as a rung in the ladder, and wants to move on as soon as possible.
    I would love to take over from him once he’s gone. I’m currently working on obtaining a difficult and coveted license in my industry, and I believe that between that license, my operational knowledge of the stuff I do, and my ability to forge good relationships with all the parties I deal with, I could take over his position. His bosses also really like me, and have made it clear that they value my contribution a great deal. The problem is that I have less actual experience than many of my coworkers. How can I work, over the next year or so, to minimize that disadvantage?

  108. Uncomfortable*

    I’m 3 weeks into a new job and finding myself very physically uncomfortable. I have fibromyalgia and pain is a regular part of my life but I am having trouble sitting in the same chair for 8 hours a day. Previous jobs involved a lot more movement and better chairs. I’ve tried every chair in the office, bought a different keyboard and trackball, as well as wrist pads and a foot stool. I’m still uncomfortable.

    How have you found ways to make yourself more comfortable at work?

    1. yup*

      Get an ergonomic evaluation if the company offers it. Some people make other people comfortable at work for a living. As for the fibromyalgia, talk to your doctor about it and tell him/her that you’re really suffering at work. Maybe a physical therapy referral can be of assistance.

      1. Uncomfortable*

        I’m not sure I can get that in my office. I work for a very large company, but at a sattelite office in a different state than headquarters that is really small. We don’t have all the perks that all the bigger corporate offices have. I’m not really sure how to ask for them to arrange that here and I feel a but weird asking for things like that when I am only 3 weeks in. I know that is probably ridiculous.

        1. TCO*

          It sounds like this could a reasonable accommodation under the ADA, and getting a new chair and/or assessment would be a very minor accommodation for a big company. You just need to ask! It’s not being high-maintenance to ask for a chair in which you can sit comfortably. Your boss is probably very happy to help make you more comfortable and productive.

          You can probably get this accomplished without even disclosing your disability: “Boss, due to some pain issues I tend to need a specific chair and desk setup if I’m going to be sitting at my desk all day. I’ve tried everything I can do adapt my current equipment and I’m still experiencing pain. I don’t want it to interfere with my work. In the past, having X brand chair has solved the problem. Is that something we could consider ordering?”

          If your boss denies you this, then you could follow Alison’s advice for requesting ADA accommodations from your boss or HR–but it probably won’t be necessary. Good luck!

          1. Uncomfortable*

            Thanks for the helpful wording. I may try that. I’m sure you are right that my manager would try to accommodate me. I have noticed that some other employees have some special chairs so it’s probably a thing they will do. My company is pretty progressive and actually has a very good attitude about ensuring a positive work environment and focuses on things like work/life balance. I think they would want me to be comfortable.

            I just feel weird about it, which I’m sure is silly. I don’t really know my manager that well yet. And this is a relatively new diagnosis for me. Previously I dealt with it without asking for accommodations at work because without a diagnosis its hard to explain a medical need and saying I was uncomfortable wasn’t good enough.

            I actually do have an office chair that is unused at my home at the moment that would be great. I’ve been considering bringing it in, but that seems a strange thing to do also.

    2. TheLazyB*

      On the off chance you’re in the uk,access to work will help.

      Do you not have desk assessments in the US? We call them DSE assessments and your workstation is assessed every couple of years ensure you’re sitting comfortably :)

      1. Uncomfortable*

        Not in the UK unfortunately. These are definitely things I need to look into at my company though. I never would have thought this would be something they would offer.

      2. Anx*

        That’s so cool! I actually don’t use my school library nearly as much as I would like because we have horrendous chairs. None of the ones on campus are adjustable or anything, but some of them are more modern and less painful.

    3. Oh Anon*

      Have you asked about a new chair, one you pick out? I was able to do that at my last job. We were also able to get up frequently & take a walk down stairs or around the block if we needed it too…8 hours of sitting is awful.

      1. Uncomfortable*

        I haven’t asked about a chair. I should. My co-worker, who started at the same time as me, also finds the chairs uncomfortable. So perhaps they are particularly bad chairs.

        I can get up and walk around if needed. The office is small so there aren’t many places to walk to. I can come and go as I please and I have been getting up twice a day to take a 10 minute walk around the parking lot. There is actually a wellness room in the office that I haven’t checked out but I guess I should in case there is something in there that might help.

  109. Lalla*

    I’ve been in a bit of a career rut for a while…I’ve started to develop some ideas of the kinds of thing I want to do but haven’t managed to get much further in actually moving towards doing them.

    Then this week, out of the blue, my manager told me that another department in our company had requested for me to be seconded to them for a three-month project. The role is in the region of the things I’ve been interested in, perhaps a slightly more technical job than I would have felt confident applying for – but it gives me a foot in the door of the area I’d like to move into, and I think getting experience of the technical side of it can only be a positive.

    I feel like an opportunity has just fallen into my lap, and I feel excited about work for the first time in ages. :)

  110. Nervous Accountant*

    Not asking for advice or ranting but just want to say…tax season is over!!!! The office feels so calm and free now.

    I do admit that I cried a little the night of the 15th…..from real emotion or having been up since 5 am (so total 16 hours) I don’t know.

    I’ll be catching up on sleep this weekend!

  111. Meg*

    I just started training a new employee at work. A lot of what we do involves trouble-shooting and trying new methods. When I was trying to show him how to handle something difficult and he said “I have to ask… so have you done this before?” in a really skeptical tone.

    This isn’t the first time I’ve gotten male chauvinist vibes from him. Does anyone have suggestions on how to shut this kind of thing down?

    1. fposte*

      Are you his manager, or are you just a colleague training him?

      In a situation like that, if I were a colleague, I’d generally speak to the manifest issue rather than your suspicions. “If you’re having problems understanding, I’m happy to go slower or repeat areas; you can also talk to Boss if you’re struggling in a way that goes beyond my ability to help.”

      If I were a manager, I might go with “Can you explain to me the reason you’re asking this?” And then if I had collective examples or the tone really was bad, we’d have a talk about the attitude that’s valued at this workplace and that I expect to see from him in future.

      1. Steve G*

        good wording, I was gonna add that I don’t see this as “male chauvinist” because guys totally do this to eachother all of the time.

  112. Katie the Fed*

    OK, update from last week. I want to thank everyone who took the time to weigh in. The readings about people who might be on the autism spectrum were really helpful and I’ve adjusted my approach and things are going much better. Again, not making a diagnosis, just trying to adjust my style and communication accordingly.

    Someone suggested I make a play book of sorts – and I did! I sent him a list of norms and best practices, kind of like a how-to of basic office communications. Like: these types of things go to your boss. These types of things go to a colleague. These types of things you should find on your own by going to resources A, B and C.

    I didn’t know how it would go over but it actually went really well and he thanked me for it, which was surprising because I was worried it would offend or come across too harsh. I’ll see how it goes, but there seems to have been an improvement in basic interactions. I’ve laid out some clearly defined projects with very overt descriptions.

    The hardest change for me is being SO blunt. I’m direct, but this is requiring an excessive level of bluntness that I’m not used to. Like “If you have asked me something, do not go ask 3 colleagues the same thing – they don’t have time for it. I am in charge of this division and my answer is the final one.” It’s so basic and blunt but I have to keep doing it on different issues.

    I’m not 100% sure this is going to work out – I need to see the quality of his work, but I feel like I’ve really improved in my ability to communicate.

    1. Malissa*

      I’m glad the playbook idea went over so well. I had to make one before and it really did help.

      So glad it’s looking up in general!

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      The best feeling ever is when you try something to deal with a difficult situation, and it actually works! Glad you’re seeing some progress.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yes, especially once you admit that you’re going about it all wrong in the first place (that’s the hardest part!)

    3. thisisit*

      it’s good that you are giving it a chance and adjusting accordingly, and seeing some results.

      on the improved communication thing – a friend of mine worked with children with sensory issues, some of whom might be on the spectrum too (or it might all be related, I’m not sure entirely). She had to overhaul the entire way she relates to people (she used to touch people a lot, but now she’s really careful about people’s space). One thing she’s noticed is that it’s actually carried over to other parts of her life too – communicating with her children have improved greatly.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Wait…I thought my dad had retired?!?

      I joke because my father is absolutely unable or unwilling to pick up on most social cues. I’ve had to yell at him before just to get him to stop yelling at myself or my wife while we’re driving. He really doesn’t absorb the message otherwise, but after a few visits of doing that, it’s started to sink in. I now wish I had written him a playbook for visiting us.

  113. Anon for grad school question*

    I’m thinking about studying nutrition or dietetics.

    If anyone here works in nutrition, what advice would you give to yourself, knowing what you do know, when you were looking at schools? Or at the beginning of your career?

    1. yup*

      I don’t work in nutrition but I’ve worked with registered dieticians.

      Get your full licensure is all I can say because you won’t be hireable without it.

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with yup–a nutritionist is a meaningless term. You could hang your shingle out as one now if you wanted. If you’re going to put time into study, might as well do it in the field that gives you registration and official status.

  114. Marie*

    For almost a year now, I’ve been working at a small nonprofit as an admin assistant. The executive director is my boss and the only one in the organization that manages me. In the past few months, I have had some issues with how she addresses issues with me. I feel like she goes off the handle over very small things or things that could easily be addressed with a simple “please don’t do this again” or “I prefer you to do things this way.”

    Overall, my work is good and she often affirms that. For the past few weeks she’s given me nothing but praise- until yesterday. Yesterday we had a small meeting with a few other coworkers and something I said set her off to where she asked me to stay afterwards. She went in on me for how I asked a followup question. She said a lot of hurtful comments to me, things she has obviously been suppressing, that were completely unnecessary and rude and asked me if I had some type of mental disability, like autism. I am not autistic.

    This isn’t the first time she’s asked me an invasive question about my mental health. I’m absolutely uncomfortable and I don’t know how to address this with her. I clearly need boundaries, but how do you set boundaries with your difficult boss? I wish she was more objective and rational when it comes to matters of my performance. I know that I need to be accommodating to her needs as her employee, but I feel she crosses the line with me, unnecessarily, when she gets attacks me on a personal level

    For the record, I asked my other coworkers if they felt like I crossed a line during that meeting, and they pretty much confirmed that they felt like she overreacted.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      So, the unfortunate thing here is I don’t think you have a lot of good options. You’re asking her to change her behavior, and I sincerely doubt you’re going to be successful at that. I’d say you have a 5% chance of her changing, and a 95% chance of you needing to find another job to get away from this.

      One thing you can try is approach her during a quiet time and say something like “Boss, I am trying really hard to exceed your expectations, but I’m really uncomfortable with the way you’ve given me some feedback. I welcome feedback to know how I can improve, but I feel like it’s crossed a line into accusations that make me deeply uncomfortable. You’ve asked me several times if I have a developmental disability – is that something that actually concerns you, or are you just expressing frustration? Is there a way we can have these convesrsations more constructively so I know what I need to do?”

      Honestly though – she’s so far out of line I don’t know that she’s going to change. I mean, if you look at my post above – I’m dealing with someone who might ACTUALLY be on the autism spectrum, and I’m not being a jerk to him. I’m trying to work WITH him. What your boss is doing is insane.

      You also don’t have to stay there and be talked to that way. You can say “I’m sorry, but I’m not ok with being spoken to this way,” and walk out of the room. Unfortunately you probably have to keep walking because that’s going to be the end of that job, but you don’t have to put up with verbal abuse.

    2. fposte*

      How big is the small non-profit? If there are at least 15 employees, including the director, the ADA does apply and she is risking a breach. Not that I think you can complain anywhere that will do anything, but maybe you could manage something along the lines of a helpful “I think questions about disabilities are against the law because of the ADA, aren’t they? We probably don’t want to breach federal laws” (additional points if breaching the ADA would be particularly ironic in light of the nonprofit’s mission).

  115. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    So here’s what’s on my mind.

    Whenever conversations about customer facing positions come up in our wonderful AAM world here, I feel like there’s a lot of negative talk about them in the comment section – customer service, sales, etc. (If my perception of that is off because of my POV, please correct me.)

    This bothers me because we’ve obviously have a lot of people looking for work also hanging out here, and customer facing jobs *don’t* all suck, they aren’t all soul sucking and they aren’t all low paid. And sales *doesn’t* automatically mean having a job that makes you an annoying person trying to talk people into buying things they don’t want to buy.

    I worry that dissuading people from exploring the potential of customer facing jobs is costing opportunities. Do you think my perception is accurate?

    For my part, I had half a college degree and not a ton of other career opportunities. Choosing first customer facing, and then second, moving into sales very much changed my life. I went from low paid to six figures in the early 1990’s, in a span of just a few years. And I’ve held a job I love with a passion ever since.

    So, I worry.

    Do you think I worry for nothing? Do you see what I see whenever any customer facing conversation breaks out? Do you think those jobs get bad press in the comment section here?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think your perspective is probably a little skewed because that’s your baby they’re talking about! I feel the same way when discussions of government come up – there’s a lot of misinformation and untrue assumptions out there.

      So, I haven’t noticed it to the extent you have, but I wouldn’t worry too much – I think people will still apply to it if they’re interested in the work.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Such a good point about government jobs. The entire internet must annoy you on that topic.

        I’m sure my perspective is skewed at least a little, which is why I asked so many questions. I know that nobody can mention a call center here without a bunch of commenters assuming there are poor wages, soul sucking work and draconian rules. I’ve never worked in a true call center but I don’t think everyone in every call center hates their work or has to live under one of those nasty point systems. Zappos is the most visible example but they aren’t the only employer who values the people who face customers.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I think you make a good point, and it’s a valid concern. During college in the 1990s, I had a brief contract telemarketing job hawking long distance service for Sprint. We were in a converted mall space, so I wasn’t exposed to other parts of the business and I wasn’t there long enough to really see other people move up. Therefore, this was nothing but a j-o-b to me, but in retrospect, it could have been a great career path. I even know a few people who started with Sprint in no-degree-required entry-level jobs in the 90s and are still there in higher mid-management jobs today.

      Today, I work for a big engineering and construction company. Our top/best positions all have a customer-facing component. You need these skills. I’ll say it again. I started as an engineer, and I still need customer service and sales skills.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (And I do see it in the convos here. . .people might say they’re in customer support apologetically, but I see it with many other professions, too. Customer service and sales are like teaching and nursing. EVERYONE has some interaction with people in these fields and has an opinion. Unless you happen to own a power plant or want to build one, you probably won’t cross paths with me. You can generalize about your geeky engineer neighbor, but you won’t be as opinionated as you are about other jobs.)

    3. De Minimis*

      I think it’s because there’s an overall perception of those jobs as being bad, maybe because a lot of lower wage jobs that people point to as bad jobs [retail, call centers, food service, etc] are customer facing.

      I think people shouldn’t necessarily rule out customer facing jobs…I’m not an extroverted person but I enjoyed a lot of the aspects of my retail job. The key was I had a genuine interest in and a lot of knowledge about what we sold [it was a bookstore.]

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      In my experience, the bad rap customer-facing jobs get from both customers and employees stems entirely from how much power the employee has to make things right. If an employee can’t help a frustrated customer, the customer will likely end up behaving badly and the employee will be stuck feeling both powerless and abused, regardless of local support by a good manager.

      So it’s not the customer-facing jobs that are the problem, but the limiting parameters frequently forced on those jobs by (in my experience) larger corporate policies.

    5. Steve G*

      I think this is a valid point. I don’t read every AAM article/comment section because they are so long, so I haven’t seen negativity about sales per se. A few comments on your comment:

      1) I have seen self-proclaimed introverts here complaining that their boss is trying to force them into customer facing work that they are not comfortable with. I think this is a problem worsened by the recession, the whole “everyone is in sales” BS mentality. I do think it helps a little for people to look for places where money is being lost + where more $ could be made, but not everyone has that type of mentality.
      2) Customer Service – I think the underlying issue in all of these complaints is pay. Pay in this area has been stagnating for 10+ years. I think that if CSR pay kept pace with inflation, more people would be willing to take the dealing-with-difficult-customers part seriously
      3) I want to give similar props to another similar job, Account Management. I don’t think many nerds realize that a lot of AM jobs are only 20-30% customer facing, and the rest of the time is spent on data crunching and prepping powerpoints and dramatic spreadsheets for meetings. They can be a good middle of the road type for someone who is somewhat introverted but also wants to step out of their comfort zone and expand their industry experience by dealing directly with customers, on a more technical level

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Forcing anyone into a customer facing position is dumb. Curiously, though, I have seen introverts excel customer facing. A couple of my top account reps are introverts and enjoy the job. They are excellent listeners and intensive problem solvers. Account generation would probably be a poor choice for these employees (cold or warm calling) but account development gets them a solid base of loyal customers.

        Customer service pay – I agree that you get what you pay for. If you don’t pay people well, you aren’t going to get high satisfaction marks. It is probably true that jobs that pay better don’t call the job “customer service” because of the reputation of low pay. That reputation didn’t start in the AAM comment section.

        1. Anon for this*

          One of the issues with call centres is that they handle hundreds of thousands of calls in a day, and there aren’t a lot of good ways to monitor how well they’re doing. You get what you measure, so if you measure success by customer surveys, unhappy customers won’t get surveys. If you measure by the length of the call, customers with complicated issues will get disconnected.

          It’s possible to build an organization where stuff like that happens rarely, but it’s expensive and you have to be thoughtful about how you measure success.

      2. Anon for this*

        My last two jobs were in aspects of customer service and paid well. I didn’t work in a call center but did work with call centres – I’m sure the people there did not get paid as well. Even if you take pay out of the equation, though, it’s not for everyone. I was third level support for one of those jobs and could do a lot for customers, and I loved helping customers who had a real problem. On the other hand, I hated helping people who just wanted to blackmail us into giving them something for free, lied about what happened, or caused the problem themselves.

        I also learned not to answer the phone so that I didn’t get ambushed by irate customers – I’d make them leave a message and call them back after I remembered who they were and what the issue was.

    6. fposte*

      I don’t think you’re wrong, but I think it’s complicated. I think some of it is, weird as it may sound, a courtesy–there are a lot of people here in bad jobs like this, and it’s our way of acknowledging that they can be tough. But I also think that “customer service” doesn’t always literally mean customer service; it gets used to mean a certain kind of low-paid entry level work like food service, retail, and call centers. But that’s misleading, because tons of other jobs are customer-service, including much of librarianship, lots of work at schools and colleges, etc.

      I think sales is a slightly different matter, because I think sales is like the Rh factor–you either have it or you don’t, and if you don’t, it might kill you :-). That doesn’t mean sales is inherently bad, but I think the consequence of a mismatch may be higher than in other positions.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Yup, the courtesy part makes sense. And it’s right. Facing customers is often draining, even if you like your products and your customers. (Sample conversation from today, me: “Oh for the love of god. She wants what WHEN? She’s a good customer but she is on my last nerve.” Rep: “Don’t I know it. I’ll try to wrangle her under control.”

        So that make sense.

        About sales though, I still think many people have a mis-impression. The one thing I knew I never wanted to do was go into sales. It was only after working with salespeople in my company that I realized it was nothing like I thought it was and that I wanted to try. I think the match between the individual and industry/product/potential customer base is more important than Mad Sales Skillz.

        1. fposte*

          That could be true about sales; I guess I don’t really know all the various flavors there either, and am overweighting the commission based stuff and the cold-calling. I suppose not all of it is Glengarry Glen Ross.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            I LOVE Glengarry Glen Ross. I do a pretty good Alec Baldwin speech out of it. :-)

            Here is what is seriously true: the way I sell is the same way I talk here on AAM, only I more of an expert in my world than here. I know my products. I find people who have problems (needs to be met). They tell me their needs. I ask more questions about their needs. I scratch my head, figure out some logistics and present solutions. They either buy my solutions or they don’t. If they buy, I do a really good job of executing, and they are so happy that next time they seek me out to fill their needs.

            The time waster and annoyance would be trying to convince someone that they had the problem to start with. Why would I waste my time with that? That’s the mis-impression I see of sales, that a sales job is convincing people to do something or dazzling them with footwork and fancy phrases. Those are the bad salespeople who try to skate by with that.

            1. Tris Prior*

              “The time waster and annoyance would be trying to convince someone that they had the problem to start with.”

              THIS. I’ve been in sales roles before where the focus was on helping people choose the right product for their needs, and it was OK if it turned out that our products did not meet their needs. Even though I am not really a good salesperson, I had zero issue with this.

              I do have issue with sales roles where you’re expected to make every person who walks through the door spend money. I…. simply cannot do that. Especially when the product is clearly a want, not a need. When I was in jobs where management expected me to do that, I failed. If someone tells me they’re just looking, I respect that, because I HATE it when I tell salespeople that and they keep pushing me to tell them what I might want to buy. And some managers REALLY did not like it that I would not continue pushing for sales with shoppers who clearly did not want to talk with me further. “It’s your job to make them want what we have?” Uh….

              1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                I fail at anything like that, too!

                Let’s be rational. You want potential customers to feel comfortable “just looking”. There is a sales cycle from the time someone is first considering a purchase to the point where they are ready to purchase. The buyer (mostly) controls this and it’s a lot of fruitless effort to try to change the cycle. What you *want* is to be available to the customer and considered by the customer at every step along her sales cycle so that when she *is* ready to buy, she buys from you.

                Inviting someone to buy a bit sooner than she shouts “ready to buy now!” is fine. Sales and other inducements to “buy now” can work if she’s up to the point in her cycle where they are attractive to her. There are a thousand tasteful and non annoying ways to invite someone to buy from you (called “asking for the order”), that have nothing to do with trying to talk somebody into something they don’t want to do. (And at no point do you actually say: “May I please have the order”)

                Here’s a thing that is true: chasing customers out of the store because they don’t feel comfortable “just looking” is not going to get more business, yes?

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        Facing customers is can be draining regardless of personality type, too. I hear a lot of “oh, you’re extroverted, you must enjoy this!” I may be an extrovert, and I’m unhappy without people interactions, but working with patrons, especially when they’re working from exaggerated or just plain wrong assumptions about your abilities/responsibilities/role (doesn’t help when management promotes these kinds of expectations), can get seriously draining for me. Extroversion may be about getting energy from people interactions, but, since I do draw energy from being around people, bad energy can go right into me and do a number on me. I try to think in terms of finding ways to balance the difficult interactions with more engaging ones.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          This is fascinating to me and something I haven’t considered once.

          Bad interactions with customers, and especially bad outcomes for customers I like, take a big toll on me. I never thought about how, as extrovert, I might be more susceptible to those depths than an introvert/less extroverted person.

          I try to think in terms of finding ways to balance the difficult interactions with more engaging ones.

          This is SO true. This is what I do.

          We are generally happy people with generally happy customers but good lord, you can run into a patch of problems or difficult ones. I have often said that I do not know how the woman who runs our problem resolution does it. I wouldn’t last a week doing her job. While customers with problems can be very nice, and she does get positive energy back from resolving their issues, that wouldn’t be enough for me.

          I literally never considered that personality type might help you weather more bad energy than the next person (me, who would be sucking my thumb curled up on the carpet).

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            Yeah, it’s taken me awhile to be able to articulate that extroversion means a kind of heightened sensitivity to interactions. But I’ve worked in fields that usually get talked about as being for extroverts (teaching for example), and my experience as been most people in those fields would call themselves introverts (at least in university teaching). I also noticed that lots of teaching burned me out badly (still does), because it was too much of a certain kind of interaction. I think introverts are better able to turn on and off because they know they have to sort of play an extrovert in order to do their jobs, but then they can turn it off, when they’re done. I can’t turn it off.

            It can also be hard for me to work sometimes with a lot of introverts who are turning it on for work and then turning it off, because they don’t want to engage with me: the put-on extroversion is just for students/clients, and after that they’re done with the people thing. I really need to be someplace where there’s more of a mix, so that I can have some collegial relationships (i.e. ones where I’m not The Possibly-Fallible Expert or The Authority Figure or The Person With The Gradebook) along with the patron/student interactions. It’s something I’ve definitely come to realize over time.

            I’ve also been told that my particular Myers-Briggs type, ENFP, is the only E type that really needs quiet/alone time to recharge, which I also find to be true. I really need both good interactions and time alone. Funny how that works!

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              Ha! ENFP also and I know exactly of what you speak.

              Very interesting introvert observation. I think I’ll be able to use this to predict success/job match a little better. My successful at sales introverts have mystified me a wee.

    7. Mints*

      In my new job, I’ve started working with Sales, and I think about you occasionally. The sales manager here is really great, and I feel like you would get along with him haha. (I also wondered if maybe my company was buying swag from your company, but then I learned the swag company is only in California. [“Swag” is the technical term, right?])
      The Sales people here have the same philosophy as you: they’re subject matter experts, and they offer you a good product and a good service. If it doesn’t work out, that’s fine. When they’re tricky at all, it makes us (Operations) really uncomfortable, and if it’s borderline lying to customers, we bring it up to the manager, who shuts it down.
      I don’t think I’m as sensitive to it as you are, but I do think there’s a difference between “customer service” and “customer facing.” Because “customer service” to me means call centers and retail, and generally sucks. “Customer facing” is anything, including high level, that includes customers. Maybe that distinction is just me though.

      1. Steve G*

        This made me think of one of the errors managers at my last job made that scared people off from sales. Salesy things were given to new or newer employees so they could prove their value (also creating the assumption that salesy, customer facing things are harder than other work). They new employees never know enough about what we did to be confident or convincing when dealing with customers, and they all struggled.

        It would have made much more sense to have senior staff confident in what we did and with the ability to handle all of the “what if” type questions do the salesy stuff like asking for renewals, upselling, and asking to be put on bid lists. They come across much more smoothly over the phone.

        I think those initial awkward encounters scared new employees away from sales-type things for the rest of their tenure.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          I think those initial awkward encounters scared new employees away from sales-type things for the rest of their tenure.

          This is exactly what I am talking about!

          I can teach almost anyone with subject matter knowledge (who doesn’t have a phone phobia or otherwise dislike talking to people) to be at least moderately successful at sales. (Sales when the leads are incoming or very warm, I should say. Doing outgoing sales to generate leads is another matter.)

          This mean error manager who scared people off sales make me mad. Ultimately, like any other job, it’s not right for everyone, but I think it is right for so many more people than ever try it, scared off by ham heads like error manager.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I can’t imagine being customer service at the electric company is fun. I hardly know anybody who does that kind of customer service and I guess I’d like to talk to a bunch of people to find out about their jobs. I do know somebody who does cs for QVC and she loves her job. Doesn’t pay great but she likes her part time hours and she likes her company and she likes the customers who call her.

        I’m not convinced customer service = uniformly bad paid, unhappy job. (Although if someone told me they did cs at the cable company, I’d have to bite my tongue to not say “oh I’m sorry” without asking questions first. How much would that suck if they liked their job though?)

        Backing up, “swag”, you made me smile. There’s a bunch of names for what it is we sell. Happy for people to use any name as long as they order from us! We position more toward gifts, ourselves. There are so many competitors in the marketplace that we carve out our spot as a slightly more upscale place to shop, but I’ll sell “swag” all day long if that’s what someone wants to buy from us. :-)

  116. MorganLiz*

    I’m attending a professional conference next week (SIOP, if anyone happens to be going!) and want to take business cards with me. Unfortunately, I don’t have them in my current role, so I’m curious if anyone has suggestions for what I should include on business cards I make for myself (or tell me if that’s just weird and inadvisable).

    I’m currently pursuing my MA in Industrial and Organizational Psychology while also working full time for a large organization. I was planning to list my personal email address, as I’ll also be networking/discussing career opportunities for post-graduation, but I’m torn on whether or not to list my company and title since it is relevant to the field.

    Should I include that I’m a graduate student? Should I list my title and organization even if it’s not a company branded business card?

    I would appreciate any advice, as I’m hoping to get them printed ASAP and be able to exchange cards at the conference.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. yup*

      walk up to someone on the street who looks very professional and ask them for their card — copy-paste-edit, done. Chances are they have been through a number of different types of cards and they can probably tell you the answer to that.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Are you attending on your own dime, representing your grad program, or representing your employer? Is your employer paying for your grad program at all?

      I don’t think it would be appropriate to put your company name on business cards you’re buying yourself, but if it’s a small company who just doesn’t do business cards and they’re cool with it, okay. That said, this would violate all types of policies we have at my Large Company. I also wouldn’t be handing out branded business cards with the company name at a public event without permission because you have no idea who knows someone in your company.

      The flip side is that if the company is paying for you to go, it’s equally odd to hand out your own personal contact cards to network for a new job.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with Another Alison–no company on personal business cards. I think it would be okay for you to have your student status, though, and you may even be able to get cards through your university. (Our students can.) In cases like that, there’s usually a template you can follow.

  117. This is Me Not Being Me*

    Oh man oh man oh MAN wish me luck. Interviewed with a second company today. (I have so far applied to two companies and been interviewed by two companies, so I think my resume and cover letters are at least passable!)

    I haven’t heard back from last week’s yet, but that’s not surprising; they weren’t planning to have the next step be until next week at the earliest.

    I don’t know when today’s company will do their next step; today was a series of interviews with the technical staff, not the hiring manager, so I didn’t have someone to ask the question of who knew what the next phase of the process was.

    Interviews are a two way street. I hope I sold them on me. I know they sold me on them, and on this role. I want this job SO VERY MUCH.

    (And I know I need to let go of it and not be over-invested, but I’m going to let myself enjoy the hoping and the “this would be awesome” feeling for a little bit yet before I let go of it, because honestly, I’m excited and that feels great. Sometime before it turns into fretting, it will be time to move on, whether that’s temporary or not.)

    1. Erika*

      Good luck! As a hiring manager who gets a lot of people who are not remotely enthused, it’s nice to see someone so excited about a job. :)

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        Thank you. Trying to move on and breathe now, but oh I hope I get this job.

  118. Erika*

    Started a new employee in training this week and I’ve already had to give her the “This may not be the place for you” spiel. On her first day, she forgot her SS card for the new hire paperwork. On her second day, she called out sick (understandable, but the beginning of a pattern). On her third day, she made a pointed joke about wanting to leave early. Today (day #4) she was late (she called, but not a good pattern so far).

    Any chance of salvaging this one? I’m starting to think this is a waste of my time.

    1. fposte*

      I think I’d have hit the same spiel as you did. How did she respond? Do you have, mentally or officially, an end date for trying? Was there another candidate for the position who might still be available?

      1. Erika*

        I got a lot of “Yes, yes, I understand,” but it didn’t seem like she was really listening. I told her that if we experienced the same issues next week, I’d have to let her go. We have a very intensive training program that takes several weeks and when I make a new hire and it takes a while to make sure they’re up to speed.

        1. fposte*

          Sounds like you’ve got a solid structure to follow, then, and she’s had a solid warning. Hope for either unambiguous failure or success next week, just for clarity’s sake.

  119. Isben Takes Tea*

    Last night I had a dream where I was hired for a job but kept getting passed from person to person, each changing the job description. Instead of freaking out (my normal dream reaction), I stated calmly and firmly that I needed to know the job expectations before moving forward.

    There you go Alison, you are literally the advice-giver of my dreams.

  120. Jerzy*

    I am a fast worker. I always have been. And I’m not sloppy about it either. My product may not be perfect in it’s draft form, but I can get to a strong first draft in half the time it seems to take most people, and I make needed revisions fast as well. My background is in journalism/communications and project management, where deadlines really matter, and I guess I am just in the habit of making things happen fast.
    Because of this work habit, I often find myself twiddling my thumbs. I will ask supervisors and even co-workers if there’s anything I can do to help them, but they often respond as if I’d be wasting their time if they tried to bring me up to speed on what they’re working on, or I get the feeling they think I must be just avoiding doing my own work.
    I want to be busy, and I work well under pressure. Any advice to keep me from spending my time at work just trying to look busy?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m in the same boat and unfortunately, the only work there really is to do (besides my own) is the work of a coworker who is really lazy and I just don’t want to do his work because of that. I don’t have any useful advice for you, but it’s frustrating!

    2. Erika*

      Look around, see what needs to be done but isn’t or that will help other people work more efficiently, and then go to your boss to ask for approval to start doing those tasks (don’t just take them on without talking about them first because it can end up duplicating work or you could create a process that’s in conflict with the work someone else is doing).

      My favorite employees are the ones who look for the gaps in our processes and try to fix them!

  121. Ruth (UK)*

    I recently saw a job posting on the window of an optician’s that stated “must apply in writing, NOT TYPING. Handwritten applications and cover letters only”.

    This was for a receptionist position that paid £6.60 an hour (just slightly over the minimum wage).

    At work the next day I said (during a casual conversation) something like “I saw a job posting in an optician’s window that said [what it said] the other day. What a weirdly specific request, and I bet it would put loads of people off applying who would otherwise be strong candidates for the job”

    A person who works part time in our office argued very strongly against me. She argued that lots of people would still apply. I said I never said no one would apply, but that there would also be many otherwise good people put off applying for a low-paying job that requires a time-consuming hand-written application. I said basically they’d only have candidates who have few, or no other job options anyway.

    She argued very strongly against this and claimed the handwritten job application is in fact a good idea, since then you’ll know who has good handwriting (which we’re all assuming is something they care about in this job).

    She also seemed to argue as if I was stating that all the good candidates have bad handwriting (she said ‘not all the smart people have bad handwriting you know”) which was never my argument. She insisted repeatedly that it won’t put off any good candidates, it would only put off people with terrible hand writing… I said it would put me off and my handwriting is fine and she basically told me… that I was wrong and that I wouldn’t be put off applying? I guess that was her argument since she continued to insist that no person would actually be put off by this requirement.

    Seriously, would anyone else be put off by this request for an application for a low-paying job?

    1. fposte*

      Most people would be, even if their handwriting is good. Your person was just argumentative.

    2. Jennifer*

      Yes.

      I was put off by a job application that required three written letters of recommendation AND a formal typing test, NOT DONE BY ANYTHING ONLINE, MUST BE DONE THROUGH A TYPING SCHOOL. What the FUCK? Where does one even find such a thing as a formal typing school that does speed typing? And it was for a damn clerical job that they wanted me to hop through all of these other silly hoops for (but those are what I recall). I was all, “this job is probably not worth this amount of effort they want just to apply.” Hell, where I work now has easier standards and this was a lower tier business compared to there.

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      I’d take a picture of it and use it as an anecdote/question to the masses (like you have) but go nowhere near the job itself.
      Plus, my handwriting sucks (sadly!)

    4. Beezus*

      Yes. Or, I would pick up the application, fully intending to fill it out, and then completely forget about it. I have nice handwriting, too.

      If clear, readable handwriting is a requirement, there are better ways to screen for that.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        I did wonder about other ways to screen for readable handwriting. The best sounding idea (at least it currently seems ok in my head)I could come up with was this:
        a) make sure it mentions in the job posting that being a neat/fast hand-writer is important for the job
        b) in the interview, have a short-ish sentence (like 10 words) and explain to the candidate that you find it important they can write neatly and ask if they’d copy the sentence. obv provide pen and paper.
        c) don’t stare at them as they write

        Then you get a handwriting sample and also know they didn’t just spend oodles of time specifically on that sample but are messy when writing at normal speed or something.

        I wonder if people would find this an odd request or awkward in an interview though? Assuming the neat handwriting is genuinely important to them though, I felt this sounded like an ok plan as it would only take literally like 15 seconds of the candidate’s time…

        This particular job posting also struck me as hilarious since it was an optician’s. As someone who does medical admin, I can basically tell you that optician’s letters are typically so unreadable it’s often a major challenge to work out even vaguely what the patient is getting referred for. It’s also one of the reasons I thought to mention it at work since we had recently been decoding a bunch of poorly scanned and barely readable ophthalmology referrals…

        1. Beezus*

          That’s what I was thinking of, too. I’d probably mention the need for clear handwriting in a phone screen, too, just to make sure it’s not skimmed over as a “nice to have” instead of a “must have”. I would find a way to work a handwriting element into an in-person interview, but I wouldn’t necessarily tell them that’s what it is for – a simple written skills test could serve a dual purpose, there.

        2. Anon for this*

          I think that’s reasonable, but I’d make the sample longer and make sure it used words relevant to the job.

    5. The Strand*

      I’d be put off, yes.

      One of my former coworkers told me that handwriting samples are very common in Europe, in countries like France, where they are put through handwriting analysis. I’m not sure if this is crap or not. Could one of our European folks, such as Sandrine, weigh in on this?

    6. Anonymouse*

      I had an argument with someone the other day where they basically told me I didn’t feel the way I did, so I totally feel your frustration. Those types of people also make you doubt your sanity and good judgement. You’re not wrong here and a lot of people would be put off. I would be, too.

    7. voluptuousfire*

      Definitely. My handwriting stinks, especially since I started using the internet. I’m lucky I can read what I wrote half the time.

      I see a job posted every so often that requires a handwritten cover letter. They ask you to either fax it or scan it and send it to them. The company is strange in that it makes their salespeople write handwritten thank you notes to their clients. I kind of understand it (building a personal rapport) but it seems rather archaic, IMO. I didn’t apply to that job either. The effort involved would be way too much for me to consider applying. If it will cost me money, I won’t do it.

    8. Afiendishthingy*

      I would definitely see it as a hoop I’d rather not jump through if at all possible. I am not sure what your coworker’s problem is.

  122. CRC Anon*

    Hi – long time reader, first time commenter…

    I ran into this problem with my husband and his job this week. He is in manual labor, and essentially runs the shop – dispatching orders, training new hires, things of that sort. Being that it is construction, the standards in interaction aren’t exactly what I would expect in my hospital office – yelling isn’t unheard of.
    In his new position, he’s not really happy. I try to get him to see the big picture and not define himself by his 9-5 (or 6-5 as the case may be) but I still sense his unhappiness. I have built a resume for him and do frequent job searches, but I don’t see anything that pays him what he currently makes, or even close too. I get discouraged by his attitude, and then struggle to be supportive of him in his new role. Any idea how I can be supportive of him professionally and personally?

    1. fposte*

      Does he have to make what he currently makes? Or would a shorter-hours job at lower pay be a reasonable decision?

      And when you say new position, do you mean he just got promoted to running the shop but doesn’t like it? Would he be okay going back to a less managerial role, since it seems like he liked that better?

      1. CRC anon*

        Yes, thank you for responding!

        He was promoted to a dispatching position, managing all the trucks and loads and ins and outs of the day. He would need to make close to what he makes now. He can’t go back to the operator roll, but after a long talk this weekend, I think he is going to give it some time and also keep his options open. He is very task oriented, and not really a big picture type – so he and I are working on that and strategizing ways to make his new position flow better for him.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Is he not happy and actively seeking to leave the current job, or just that the new job means he has some tasks he doesn’t like as much or that require him to branch out and learn added skills? From your post, I can tell *you* want him to find a new job, but I can’t tell if he really wants that new job. The best advice I’ve learned the hard way is patience – you definitely get input, but it’s ultimately him who has to decide if he really wants a different job and what he wants and doesn’t want out of that job, including how much it pays.

      Don’t let yourself and your husband be the next AAM story like the RN whose husband resigned for her!

      1. CRC anon*

        Thank you for responding,

        I actually don’t want him to find another job. I think his manager is wonderful and takes great care of us. He was working 5AM-5PM Mon-Friday and half a day Saturdays four years ago with the same company. I worry that he would have to go back to that to work his way up. Also, he has great benefits and a pension.

        I think he wants to be more challenged. He’s been with this company for nearly 20 years (his whole adult life) and is looking for a challenge. I want to be supportive and can see how far he has come. I would love for his to see the same

  123. SoBurnedOut*

    Has anyone here refused to sign a termination agreement after resigning? I’d love to hear your story!

    I finally walked away from my job. After my two weeks, my former employer emailed me with the termination agreement asking me to sign it. I don’t have a severance package and am not after one. I’m also not concerned about references. I don’t want to sign it– is there another consequence here that I haven’t though of?

    1. fposte*

      I’m about as bureaucracy-friendly as they come, and I don’t see any reason for you to sign it (I’m also slightly piqued, because things like these should be negotiated earlier than this, and I suspect they didn’t do this very well). Out of curiosity, did you see what was in it? Were they offering you anything in it, and what were they asking from you? I’m not sure it’s even legally viable unless they offered you something, but maybe they just try it on and hope people don’t know.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        They told me they’d like me to sign one but didn’t have it ready before I left. It’s a TINY and terribly disorganized nonprofit– I’m employee #2 after years of one misclassified “independent contractor” after another, so I’m not surprised. The documents were emailed to me this afternoon, several days after I’d left.

        Before I’d resigned I’d raised the issue of my initial misclassification (I was hired as an independent contractor for my first 10 months, although I functioned exactly as I did in my capacity as a payroll employee). After much dispute they said they would go ahead and reclassify me, although they maintained that there was no problem (I’m confident that there is, given that I spoke to three separate employment lawyers). I know that I didn’t have to approach them first and could just submit an SS-8 form on my own, but I wanted to approach them in good faith about it and give them a chance to fix things first.

        It’s my first job out of school– I suppose they could tell me they won’t go through with the reclassification. That means I’d have to take it up with the IRS myself (it seems like a pretty cut and dry case). It just leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth for this organization.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Don’t sign. That sounds like a general release form, and it’s the form people sign in exchange for receiving severance. If you’re not receiving severance or something else that you want, there’s absolutely no reason for you to sign that.

          1. SoBurnedOut*

            I absolutely just want to be left alone, especially now that I have a number of good references from clients and advisors in the org. I do understand that my manager could bad mouth me if the recruiter goes off my list and calls him, but it’s one bad word against several people willing to vouch for me. I’m not signing– thanks, Alison!

    2. BRR*

      Do you get anything from signing it? What would you be giving up (right to litigation is my guess)? What are they going to do, fire you?

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        My thoughts exactly!

        I’d be giving up right to litigation. There’s also some language about confidentiality, non-compete (I’m in California), and a one sided non-disparagement agreement.

    3. Clever Name*

      What does the termination agreement say? Is it a rigid noncompete agreement or a non disclosure agreement where your former employer expects you to foot their legal bill if they decide to sue you? I definitely wouldn’t sign that

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        It’s both, including a one-sided non disparagement clause. It seems like overkill– I’m not really sure what the motivation is behind any of this.

  124. Amber Rose*

    I don’t have to stay to the end of this work event.

    But I’m the bartender. I can’t escape! :O

  125. RB*

    Rant time. On Monday my boss pulled me aside and told me he was promoting me to a level 3 and gave me a raise that made my jaw drop. In five years with the company, I had never come close to getting such a significant raise. Then the other shoe dropped. A key member of my team is leaving the company, and he needs me to pick up the slack until a replacement is hired. Then I found out that three more specialists are transferring out of the department and a manager put in her notice as well. And this is the problem with my department. Everyone is stressed out and frustrated, so they’re looking for other opportunities. They leave, the rest of us have to pick up the slack, and get more stressed and frustrated. Hiring at my company is a nightmare. Postings need to be approved by 5 levels of leadership, and then offers have to be approved by those same 5 levels, so offers can get tied up for months. On top of that, most of our responsibilities are fairly specific to the company, so new employees can’t exactly hit the ground running unless they’ve worked there before. Everyone is pulling double duty and will be for the foreseeable future.

    My boss knew that I was just as frustrated as everyone else, and I’m pretty sure he had figured out that I was looking for something new. I know that the raise was his attempt to keep me at the company. I’ll take the additional pay and as much overtime as they want to pay me, but there’s no way I’m going to stop looking.

  126. Jessica*

    So, I just started a new job and finished training. Everything is awesome and the company is great except…I have a weirdly immature and self-involved coworker. She talks constantly about herself and inserts herself into conversations that don’t really involve her to do so. It was painfully boring to hear her drone on about her life at times. I felt like I was getting snippy by the end of training and I don’t want to be at all! Any tips? I can’t stand bragginess, but I want to have a good working relationship for a long time. I *do* think it will be better without being in such close confines, so at least there is that.

    1. Afiendishthingy*

      She was part of your training class? If so and you’re not going to be working as closely with her things will probably improve. She sounds annoying and I would have to hold myself back from snapping at her too. No real advice because I go a little crazy when people do that too, but if she’s the worst thing about the job you’re still pretty lucky! And hey, maybe she won’t last.

      1. Jessica*

        I know, I know… the job and company is pretty great, so I’m lucky. :-) I just hate to already feel like I have *that* coworker and worry about my snark streak.

        I’m really hoping it was just the close confines, but we will be on the same floor/department, just a few desks apart. She’s just so strange! For example, we were talking about where we lived and she reassured me that, “it’s OK to live in suburbia” (to which I replied that I loved where I lived and didn’t need to be reassured). Just stuff like that constantly, not always directed at me. Very narrow-minded view of what a “good” life is. I always just feel like if you constantly have to talk about how awesome and amazing your life is…it’s probably not that great.

  127. So Very Anonymous*

    If it’s not too late, I could really use a pat on the head — a job I interviewed for rejected me, and I got rejected to present at a conference that you basically need to be able to breathe to present at. This has me feeling like I’m never getting out of my current job because I’m kind of a hybrid mix of several fields, and the conference rejection is just another reminder that people in the field I’m working in seem generally uncomfortable with this hybridness– I’m not easily categorizable. I’m doing well at setting up projects that I’ll enjoy doing, and am finally getting attention for those, but I feel so trapped at my current job, and sometimes it seems like this “hybrid” problem is keeping me from getting anywhere better.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s a frustrating combination, and I’m sorry, especially since it sounds like you’re looking to grow right now. I know the hybrid thing can be tough sometimes, but it really can work well when it works. And the job was interested enough to call you in to interview, so they didn’t just find your pedigree unfathomable.

      So take a little time to be sad, because that kind of thing knocks you off your game, but it’s really not a global referendum on you; it’s just one job and one conference.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      I can understand where you’re coming from. When you’ve had a varied or in your case “hybrid” background, it makes it hard for people to connect the dots. For all of the noise so many companies make about “thinking outside the box,” they’re loathe to consider someone who isn’t inside that box.

      For myself, some companies do prefer an eclectic background like mine but they usually tend to be start ups who usually tend to be pretty fickle with hiring. :(

    3. So Very Anonymous*

      Thanks, y’all :)

      fposte, I have the feeling we’re in similar situations, PhDs doing alt-ac things at universities. I’ve run into a fair amount of weirdness around my PhD, which is holding me back at current job in various subtle (and not-so-subtle) ways.

      I’ve had a lot of success in the past year or so with finally being able to carry out some projects which are exactly what I want to be doing (with a GREAT collaborator!). My cover letter is changing rapidly as a result, which is kind of fun, and I’m glad to be getting phone interviews here and there. But, I know I’m competing with people who have been groomed/trained specifically for what I want to be doing, and in this very tight market I feel like hiring folks are going with those “in the box” people rather than someone like me who has wide-ranging (but relevant!!) experience. There are soooooo few jobs, and I’ve been getting phone interviews but haven’t made it to the next step for awhile. I’m wondering if I need to start thinking even further out of the box regarding things to apply for.

      I’m also feeling pretty desperate to leave — I was told originally by advisors that I should take this job (against my gut, meant moving very far away from family and friends), get some experience, and then that I should easily be able to move on after about two years. It’ll be five years next month. The experience hasn’t been great, our pay’s been frozen most of the time I’ve been here, and I work with so many people who, unlike me, aren’t interested in growth at all. I really don’t want to spend the rest of my career here.

      Someone once told me to think of these things the ways athletes do (not being an athlete AT ALL, I wouldn’t know!), which is that you just shake it off and try again. But I think I’m also going to do a non-athletic thing and do some comfort baking as well :S So in thanks, I will offer you both a homemade cinnamon roll…..

  128. Anonymouse*

    What are your best tips and techniques for coping with a stressful or toxic work environment?

    My friend just says she “doesn’t let it bother her” which is not helpful for me; if I was able to let it roll off my back that easily, well, I wouldn’t be here.

    I understand that the long-term solution is to get out, and I am applying for jobs, but until I am able to leave, what are some techniques you use that I might be able to try as well?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish I had good coping methods to recommend to you. Unfortunately, the only tip that’s worked for me is “find a new job ASAP.”

    2. BeckyDaTechie*

      Silly putty or poster putty in easy reach. Start getting frustrated, take a short fidget break and tear/snap/pop a putty ball. And don’t forget to stand up and stretch or take a quick walk as long as it doesn’t get in the way of getting stuff done.

      1. Anonymouse*

        I sometimes take walks during the work day if I’m really upset about something but for some reason I feel guilty for “shirking” work. I guess I have to change my thinking about that one. It’s a good idea, though. I should take more walks than I do.

    3. Anonforthis*

      There are a number of posts regarding this topic with very helpful advice. In addition to searching this site for those threads, search for the specific issues that bother you. One thing I’ve done is take a snippet of the advice and put it on a post-it note in my desk drawer. It’s not enough text for someone else to know what it means, but it reminds me of the advice from Alison or other readers.

      A rundown of commonly seen advice:
      – If you don’t have an exercise routine, get one. It can be as simple as a 5 minute walk.
      – Have a life outside of work that you can draw on for support and fulfillment — friends, family, volunteering, crafting, cooking, etc.
      – Drawing on the above, find other ways to feel accomplished and appreciated, especially if that is an issue for you at work. For example, if it bothers you that your boss doesn’t recognize good work, look for that recognition in other facets of your life.

      1. GOG11*

        +100

        I recently had a lot of difficulty dealing with work because it was overwhelming me and I was using up all my mental energy (so I had nothing left to dedicate to hobbies or activities outside of work). When work is the only thing giving you input, and all that input is negative, you’re not only dealing with a lot of negativity, but very little positivity to counteract that and no other experiences to provide perspective and to weigh the input you’re getting at work against. This can really mess with your head and be very difficult to cope with.

      2. Anonymouse*

        Thanks for the advice! The last point is especially good, but I will keep all of it in mind!

  129. Friday Open Thread Question*

    Is there a duration of time when you can assume that the question you asked AAM would never be answered by Alison?

    I emailed Alison a question on Wednesday (4/15/15), but I still haven’t gotten a response back from Alison yet. I am not sure if it will be answered tomorrow or sometime next week?

    I really want my question to be answered next week. But I am not sure if it is appropriate to put my question in this Friday thread tonight.

    1. nona*

      I’ve had answers in about a week. She gets a lot of email. Maybe hold it for next week’s open thread?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Feel free to check with me and I can tell you whether I have it on my to-be-answered queue or whether you should go ahead and post it here. But yeah, as nona says, I get a lot of email (50+ questions per day) so it’s rare to get a response within just a couple of days.

  130. Just Anony*

    A few weeks ago, I wrote in about my company being one of the finalists in a contest, and the last step to determining the winner was having a film crew come in and film day-to-day operations with some interviews. That filming occurred this week.

    Oddly enough, they allowed some people to request days off, but I was always of the understanding that we were expected to be there. For those of us that were there, they flinched if we said we didn’t want to be on camera. That leads me to the next thing –

    I thought in order to be on camera – deliberately on camera and not in the background of a news crew out on the streets (for example) – a person had to sign some sort of a waiver to say they agree to be on camera. Well, no waiver here. Maybe I should have been more proactive, but I didn’t want to be the Negative Nancy of the bunch. These clips will be shown on the contest’s website, and probably later on YouTube (as previous contest finalists are). I’m curious about that. I never signed anything about being filmed, and I’m hoping the company sign something on the employees’ behalves.

    1. Delyssia*

      I’m pretty sure that at my company, there’s something in the new hire package and/or employee handbook (not sure if it’s a form we have to sign or just a statement somewhere) that says that the company can use photos or videos of us in perpetuity (maybe not phrased like that, but definitely where they can still use the photos or video even after you’ve left the company).

      I obviously don’t know if your company had anything in writing covering this eventuality beforehand, but it seems entirely possible to me that they might have signed something on behalf of the employees.

      1. Johr*

        Yep, we have a video/photo consent form that all new hires sign that allows us to use their photos in any marketing material/websites/etc. This might fall under the realm of that – I think it’s intentionally written with pretty vague language so they can apply it broadly.

      2. Just Anony*

        The employee handbook I saw for maybe 10 minutes, and I’m afraid that if I asked to see it again, I would be questioned to the nines about why I wanted to see it again. Even so, I know some of the everyday rules have changed, and it is just told to us verbally. I don’t recall anything about photography/filming. I’m thinking that if there wasn’t, they’ll somehow sneak it in now in case someone were to ever have a complaint. The film company wasn’t exactly double-checking with any of the employees to make sure they wanted to be on camera. It was basically if you were working, then you were expected to be on camera in some form.

        Some people who normally work on Fridays took off. I was very surprised by that, and I thought it was expected that all Friday employees show up and not dare request off.

        1. Johr*

          Do you have a company Intranet? Most companies keep a copy there that can be accessed at any time.

          1. Just Anony*

            Not that I’m aware of. I could only guess they do; they made it sound like though that the hard copy was the only copy.

  131. voluptuousfire*

    Do any others here feel like they’re at a point in their job search where you really don’t quite know if it’s you or them in why you’re not progressing?

    I ask because I had a phone screen on Monday for a role and I got a rejection email this evening. The call was about 20 minutes and I was told about the miscommunication in the job description (apparently it was written that it sounded like it was client facing when it was back office stuff, which is more than fine by me) and then asked if I had any questions. During phone screens, I usually keep the questions rather general/light, mainly because I don’t know about the role and if I advance, I can ask more specific questions later. I asked my questions with a more specific one thrown in (asking about how someone would use their “analytical skills” in this role, since it seemed to be a strong preference).

    I’m not trying to figure out why I wasn’t passed on. I think it ultimately was a stretch role at best and my experience didn’t line up with what they believe they needed. The JD didn’t necessarily communicate that, but there’s nothing I can do about that.

    I’m at the point in my job hunt where I can’t figure out if it’s me or if it’s them. Sometimes I bomb interviews and sometimes I rock them but even rocking them doesn’t seem to go anywhere. Rocking the first interview brings me up against another interviewer who paints a different picture of the role than the first interviewer did and then I get rejected. It’s most likely due to the fact that I didn’t have x experience that second interviewer spoke of when first interviewer painted it as a a minor task or didn’t mention it at all.

    The more I interview, the more I question if people truly know what they’re looking for in a candidate for a role. I either get an interviewer who does the 180 degree thing or it’s more of a question and answer period than a dialogue. Also, more often than not, I get interviews for the stretch roles than the jobs I’m almost a line to line match for. What is up with that?

    I’m not worried about my resume. I know it’s strong and gets me in the door but I just can’t seem to pull the trigger on anything. It’s frustrating me.

    1. misspiggy*

      It sounds a little like you’re casting your net too wide. You may need to decide which types of jobs you’re really skilled and motivated to do, and only apply to those if you can.

  132. To friend or not to friend*

    I am an editor at a small local paper. I have a personal Facebook page and a number of the friends I’ve made through work are my friends on the page, although I try to keep it for personal stuff only (i.e. don’t send me story suggestions that way … I check my work e-mail frequently enough that I’d rather just “disconnect” when I’m on Facebook). Recently I’ve had a few requests from people that I only know through work and don’t particularly care about getting to know personally. One, in fact, sent me a friend request and a story suggestion (while I was on a rare vacation). I have not responded to their requests; I’m not sure if I should delete the requests, accept them or leave them as is in limbo. I feel “deleting” would be an insult (because they would see me as Jane the Editor rejecting them) but “accepting” would lead to work-related stuff in my inbox. (I don’t care what on my profile they see, because I am extremely judicious with what I post.) If I don’t do anything, I see their avatars on the right hand side of my Facebook every time I log in, reminding me of this conundrum. Help!

    1. GOG11*

      Would it be possible to just ignore things on facebook? For instance, if they sent you a work-related communication via facebook and then they followed up later, could you say, “Oh, sorry – I only use Facebook for personal stuff. Work isn’t even on my radar when I’m on there and I must have overlooked it. I’m always available via my work email so be sure to send work inquiries that way. Thanks!” If it’s important, I imagine they’d reach out in person or via work email, which WOULD be appropriate, and if they learn that’s the best and only way to get a response, maybe they’d just use what gets a response.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Leaving in limbo is the best course of action. If you reject the requests, they can just request again, which you’ll have to reject once again.

      1. Anonymouse*

        This is what I would do, too.

        At least with Facebook, you can claim it’s for your personal life. I had this one person at my current company friend me on LinkedIn and I left it in limbo for such a long time, and then he used my work e-mail to pester me into “connecting” with him so I finally did, much to my chagrin. I will spare you the details but I detest him at work. I can’t wait until I leave and I can finally unconnect and block him forever!

    3. AnotherFed*

      I’m perfectly happy to ignore requests from work people I don’t know very well, but I’m also rarely on facebook. If leaving the requests in limbo bugs you, will unread messages from these people bug you? Will posts and messages about work things be irritating? If so, it might be best to just reject the friend request.

  133. QA grump 42*

    I’m moving towards a more technical role at my company, and mostly it’s going OK. But I have one coworker, A, who’s our expert on a particular system and who I seem unable to communicate with effectively. He’s a bit intimidating, and every time I ask him a question I find I’ve said something idiotic, or contradicted myself, or totally misread his answer to my previous question that I’m following up on. This doesn’t happen around other coworkers who help explain other systems to me. I don’t know why I keep doing this, or how to stop. Any advice?

    1. CSNewbie*

      I’m new at my job and still learning the codebase, so what I do right now is to send my questions via e-mail, or write them down on a notepad, so I can be sure I’m expressing myself clearly. What I especially like about e-mail is that it can be a bit longer, so I can include background information. In general, my e-mail format has been to start off with my progress report (what I’ve done, successes, problems), then a list of my assumptions/current understanding, and then a numbered list of questions clarifying points I’m unclear on.

      This gives my supervisor the option of getting to my questions when he’s free, shows that I’ve tried things myself, and gives a clear list of questions he can either answer in e-mail or come by to discuss in person if it’s more complex. I make sure to have extra notes and diagrams around if it becomes an in person discussion.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Keep a running list of questions as you work, and see if you can answer them yourself by going over materials you already have. If you still can’t answer it, put it in a draft email and hold it for a bit. Go back through as often as makes sense for your work (end of the day? next morning? end of the week?) and if you still can’t answer it and it’s a sensible question, send it off.

      If you find that you’re getting lots of email responses or a mix of sources, consider starting yourself a document/manual with everything you learn and drop everything relevant in there. That’ll help you keyword search later, which is especially nice if it turns out that your coworker has been anticipating and pre-answering potential follow-on questions that you don’t realize you need answered until later on.

      1. QA grump 42*

        Thank you! Definitely going to try sticking to email rather than chat going forward. It’s a bit hard because usually everything’s in a rush, but I’m going to try to take this as a reminder to start leaving more slack in my time estimates (start doubling them all?) and saying no to things that don’t fit.

  134. ThatLibTech*

    Going to attempt asking my for lack of a better term “direct boss” for a reference while I update my resume and references. They don’t know I’m job searching atm, but I really do actually need to update the resume I was hired on three years ago (!!!). I’m amazed I was even hired, knowing what I know now about resume writing. Hah.

    Nervous, but needs to be done as I look for part time work to supplement my current part time job.

  135. Liane*

    Update: Started my new second job writing for the new blog run by a small gaming company, whose forums I have moderated for years. I have several articles in various stages. I also am now officially the Copy Editor.
    It is not something that will bring me much money, but I love it–which was why I took the gig in the first place.

  136. Johr*

    Out of curiosity, is anyone else seriously intimidated by the C-level executives at their company? I’m pretty close to the bottom in terms of the totem pole, and working in payroll/HR is one of the behind-the-scenes thing that isn’t really on anyone’s radar unless it goes horribly wrong. I’ve been at my company for four years and still get nervous if I’m stuck in the elevator with one of them. Though they’re always pleasant and friendly, I’m always afraid of saying something goofy though this might have something to do with the fact that I’m painfully awkward in all social situations. This week I was tasked with making a powerpoint presentation for the chairman/owner of the company (about ~600 employees) for an internal event with absolutely no guidance other than the topic of the presentation. I must’ve reread the email that basically said ‘hello, here’s your powerpoint to review and let me know what changes you want to make’ a thousand times before I nervously clicked the ‘Send’ button. He replied to thank me for my work and tell me I did a great job (huge sigh of relief) but I know I’ll have to work with him on it next week and its intimidating, even if I really appreciate the opportunity to make a good impression on someone who probably has no idea what I do. Anyway, I’m not sure if this is a common thing, or a leftover from my previous job from hell where the COO walked around the cubicles to make sure no one had a cell phone out, monitored employees’ internet usage by having a list of the top ten offenders placed on his desk every week and watched the front door at 8 AM so he could email the supervisors of employees who came in late to ask them what was being done about the attendance problem…

    1. AnotherFed*

      Being a little intimidated is pretty normal. If the exec you have to work with on the presentation is any good, he’ll be aware that you’re nervous and recognize it’s because you want to do well and make a good impression. Just try to remember he’s still just a person and has to put his pants on one leg at time like everyone else!

    2. Anonymouse*

      Next time, if you’re not sure what direction you should take with an assignment, ask the person who it is for. Sometimes I find it’s easier to figure that out if you talk to them in person (my boss is incapable of communicating directions by e-mail) though I know that’s not always possible.

      It sounds like you’re coming off from a bad work environment, so you’ll need to think more consciously about why you’re behaving a certain way, especially if a situation makes you nervous.

  137. Disclosure Norms*

    I have some trouble understanding the norms of disclosing information with coworkers, and I want to get a better understanding of it so I know what information to disclose and what not to disclose in the future.

    I understand that we almost will never disclose our salary figure to coworkers, but what about other information such as our workplace reimbursement amounts, employee discount percentages, etc..

    For these types of financial perks, given that not all employees can get them in my company, I usually just let my top managers know (for my top managers must approve before I can get them). I avoid discussing it with my secondary managers and coworkers in my team. Sometimes when a colleague ask me about them, I said that I will talk about it some other day because I am not sure how I should disclose these information. I responded this way even when the question isn’t specifying a dollar amount, but is just asking something like, “what type of certificate is it?”
    I worried what if the coworker starts asking: how much does the certification program cost? Your division let you have this much covered for your expenses?! Etc.

    I know that I am likely to come off as odd for answering some inquiries this way, but I get a bit worried that I might be disclosing information that I should have kept hidden. I sometimes also worried what if I accidentally told the information to a coworker who later on might turn out not be a nice person. Currently, I experience no conflicts or rude behavior in my company, but I do sometimes fear of giving too much information.

  138. Colette*

    I don’t think you are obligated to keep that stuff confidential if you don’t want to. I’d consider how disclosing might make the other person feel – is it something they can get, too? Is it a perk for doing an outstanding job? Will giving them that information change how they treat you?

    If you think they can handle the info and you want to share, go ahead.

    1. Disclosure Norms*

      Most of the workplace reimbursement perks I get are based on manager’s approval and company division budget. Some colleagues might work with managers/company divisions that are not as generous as mine. Determining if they can handle the information is the hard part for me. Determining if they are good people to disclose to is hard too.

      And I hear close friends have advised to disclose my workplace perks until after I am done getting them, such as waiting to finish the certification program before disclosing to coworkers that I enroll in the program and got workplace help to pay for it.

      But I am still unsure if I can hold their advice, because my top managers know and what if they mention it to my secondary managers? How would my secondary managers feel knowing that they are not the first people to know this?

  139. N.J.*

    Okay AAM community–long time reader posting for maybe the second time ever! I interviewed in February for a stretch position that aligned with a field I had previous experience in, but would be a big step up in responsibility. I made it to the final round of consideration and was one of three final candidates. I never received a rejection notice but did see a local news article announcing the person selected for the position (it is with a community organization). A professional contact reached out to me by email a few days ago and asked how that particular job process was going as I let him no that I had not gotten the job. He works in the same circles that the hiring organization does and just told me that the new hire has already left. What is the best way to reach out to say I am still interested? Ideas for wordimg of a short email maybe?

    1. TheLazyB*

      Yeah, I’d just write a short email saying that you have heard the position may be open again, you’re still interested and would love to have a conversation if possible. And then I’d let it go and let it be a plus if they get in touch.

  140. Nervous Accountant*

    Ok I am SO late to this and I wonder if anyone will even respond….I’m not sure if this is too late to post but this happened last night:

    the CEO of my company made a note of how often I go to the bathroom.

    The context: work party, open bar. Everyone’s standing around and talking and drinking. It’s a loud bar and pretty relaxed atmosphere. He joked that “Nervous Accountant and I say Hi about 7 times a day…..she drinks a lot of water.” It took me a second to get that…. His office is right by the bathroom.

    I’ve never been to a work party, so I have no firsthand experience to draw back on. Am I overthinking it (like, omgz the CEO is monitoring my bathroom breaks!)? I laughed it off but is this something I should be thinking about?

    1. Delyssia*

      Hard to say without knowing your CEO and the overall environment. That could be a completely innocent joke (like, I have colleagues in other departments who I see regularly in the kitchen at work, but don’t interact with otherwise, and we’ve been known to make an offhand remark about it in some way), or it could be a snide commentary disguised as a “joke.” That said, unless you have firsthand knowledge of the CEO having a history of snide comments disguised as jokes, I would take it as a joke and let it go.

    2. TheLazyB*

      Oooh that’s a weird one. It would make me uncomfortable too. I don’t know that I would change the water drinking though :/

      Do you think you could ask him about it? I guess it’s probably best to get it out in the open but…yeah, I wouldn’t want to do so either :/

    3. Nervous Accountant*

      Well I’ve never really spoken to him before except for a Christmas party where I introduced myself (had just started 2 weeks prior). He doesn’t come in to the office everyday but when he does we usually acknowledge each other with a smile/nod/good morning/goodnight. No other dialogue beyond that (but i don’t see any of my peers having conversations with him either).

      FWIW the 7 times was an exaggeration. not that I keep track of other ppls bathroom habits but I feel like I do go often more than others, sometimes Bc of IBS sometimes I drink a lot more throughout th day. But my work isn’t suffering Bc of it (I don’t think it is).

      1. misspiggy*

        I wouldn’t worry about it. He was probably searching for small talk and a way to include you in the conversation whilst being amusing, and came out with a less than sensitive quip because of the booze. Not perhaps the best social skills on his part, but unlikely to indicate a genuine problem.

  141. Ruffingit*

    I really wish people would stop leaving me voice mails at work that sound like they are auctioneers or those people who read the terms and conditions on television advertisements. SLOW DOWN PEOPLE! Especially when you’re leaving a telephone number of some other important info. There are some messages I’ve had to listen to multiple times just to hear the phone number you’d like me to return the call to. I prefer it when people slowly say who they are, the phone number, the message and then repeat their name and number at the end.

  142. Malissa*

    So after the week of weird interviews I sent an application out today for something that is quite the stretch. If I get it I would be thrilled. But I really don’t think they’ll even call. But after going on pointless and weird interviews I’m send an app above where I’ve been trying to get. Maybe by shooting for the stars I’ll finally land something. It’s worked twice before.

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