the bread bag files, the dead language, and other broken but sacred systems

by Alison Green on October 22, 2024

Last week, we talked about broken systems that for some reason become sacred and cannot be changed. Here are some of my favorite stories you shared.

1. The bread bags

I worked for a publication that had a bread-bag-based content management system. They were these waxy paper bags designed to hold a loaf of bread, and each article for the issue had a bag with all of the relevant collateral. Anything you did for an article (research, drafts, fact checks, layouts), you had to print out your work and put it in the bag.

They would get passed around the office, and as we got closer and closer to deadline, people’s desks would be piled high with bread bags. In order to properly review articles, you had to take all the contents out of the bag. Things typically got more frenzied closer to deadline, so by the time we closed out the issue, everyone’s fingers were typically covered in paper cuts.

We’d keep the bags in storage buckets for three months after we went to press, just in case we needed to go back and check something, then we’d spend an absurd amount of time disassembling all of them so we could reuse the bags.

This system was in practice until the year of our Lord 2020 when the pandemic finally forced them to find a digital content management solution.

2. The calendars

When I transitioned from one enrollment management office to another on campus nine years ago, my new office had a spot outside of everyone’s office for them to place a print-out of their weekly outlook calendar. I came from an office where our internal IT guy had made the outlook default settings so that everyone could view the high level, but not the details, of appointments. The IT guy in the office I joined said such a setting wasn’t possible and that it was impossible to enforce everyone adjusting their settings so that we could all view each other’s calendars. So people printed their calendars every Monday morning and hung them next to their door.

Do you print a new one if you get a new meeting request during the week? What about if you end up needing to be out unexpectedly? No guidance, no rules.

I just quietly refused to do any printing. And it was never a problem. We had a new director start about two months after me and she asked, as a fellow newcomer, is there anything that surprised me coming into the office. I didn’t take a full breath before I said, “OMG WHY ARE PEOPLE PRINTING CALENDARS?”

The calendar printing lasted about another 14 months, though following my and the director’s lead, new people just never printed them out and the calendar sheets slowly started to disappear. Was there ever an office wide change to the Outlook settings? No. So each new person has to be instructed to change their Outlook settings and some don’t and it’s a PITA.

3. The work space

An organization I worked at was moving buildings. One person ran a solo unit similar to a storeroom. She had a full scale meltdown when she found out her new workroom would not be the exact shape and dimensions as her previous room. They tried to convince her it would be nice to have windows. She insisted it would not. She had been working for 20 years without windows and nothing would convince her to have windows.

They caved into her bizarre demands and carved out a weird interior space for her the exact shape and size of her previous space. She put everything where it had been in the old building: the place to stack incoming supplies, the place to stack empty boxes, her desk and calculator, every single item. We’re in an earthquake zone so there are seismic pylons in various spots, which could not be in her space because that would change the dimensions. So they put walls up in awkward places that left strange, unusable space all around it. The beautiful large windows were in a narrow corridor that heated up in two seconds when the sun was out. Seismic pylons stuck out into other people’s spaces in awkward spots. The entire floor was wonky to navigate due to this one person’s insistence on The Old Way.

And guess what? Six years later she retired. Every single wall had to be taken down and moved to a sensible place, at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars.

4. The dead language

I work in museums. Another museum in our region had a staff member who kept all their crucial records – important not just for day-to-day work, but for the continuity of the entire institution – in a dead language that they were fluent in. It was a deliberate ploy to keep from ever being replaced. They had never actually been managed before a colleague of mine became their supervisor, and when they refused to change, they were let go and the records had to be translated.

5. Fall 2008

My college’s database was created in fall 2008. How do I know this? Well, when you log on, everything from the class schedule to the student handbook to the faculty pages is set to fall 2008 by default. You have to click into a menu, open a side-bar, and scroll aaaalllll the way down to the current term to see what the school looks like now. But if you hit the “Back” or “Refresh” buttons, the page will crash and then revert back to fall 2008.

6. The typewriter

I worked at a commercial real estate company where the owner’s personal assistant refused to learn anything new. Therefore, there were some forms that never evolved to PDFs, or Word, or Excel, or anything logical. These forms were photocopied and filled in, by the personal assistant, using a typewriter.

It was like time traveling. She would take the dust cover off the typewriter, line up every space so the levers would fill in the correct spots and then take hours filling in a single form. The electric motor of the typewriter could be heard throughout the entire office.

When visitors asked what that buzzing and striking sound was, I pretended like I didn’t know. How can you close a $M deal after saying, “Oh, that’s the typewriter that we use to fill out forms!”

7. The phone box in a well

I worked for many years in a social service organization located in a state forest. It was a former camp. The phone system was a nightmare, and we often heard that people could not get through to us. Initially, I disputed this as my phone was not ringing, and there were no voicemails. But then there were times that I was unable to make calls with my phone.

It turned out that, for some insane reason, the main phone connection box was located in the well, above the water line, but why??? So whenever it rained, we lost our phones. Mind you, the rest of the organization’s branches were located in the city, so it was bizarre to explain that we were unlikely to be reachable by phone the next day due to the predicted rain. I worked there for 12 years. They used a local company that was willing to go into the state forest, and that was less expensive than other phone options. They were big on using local companies.

I was there for five years before they moved the phone apparatus out of the well and into a building. I recall having an absolute meltdown at one point and saying to the senior director, “Why are you paying money for a phone system that does not have consistent service? The agency is being ripped off!” I don’t know if that was what finally did it or not.

8. The course catalog

I worked at a private university that was notoriously stingy and resistant to change. The course catalog was in a program created by a former IT director, in a computer language he wrote. He was the only person who could edit it, and even though he was retired, he would still come in periodically and update it. There was no one else who could maintain it. Heaven forbid something happened to him, we’d be registering students with pen and paper.

We got a new dean who was horrified and immediately started researching alternatives. Once a committee selected a software, the transition took over three years. The new company sent a team to help with the transition and people dragged their feet: “It’s too complicated, what if we get hacked? What’s wrong with the old system, we’ve used it just fine for 30 years!”

I was gone by implementation day, but there was so much drama leading up to implantation and then … nothing. The new system worked! My peers went from spending a month on the course catalog to a couple of days. Students stopped calling at 7am registration day because the student portal actually worked.

The best complaint I heard was, “I can’t believe we are putting John out of a job! He’s been so loyal to the university!” John had been retired for YEARS! I hope he went on a cruise or something to celebrate.

9. The server

Way, way back in the day, I worked for a small family-owned publishing company. Computers were just becoming mainstream (no wifi – all of our desktop computers were attached to the main server via individual cables inserted in wall outlets). The server was shaky and would often go down. Only one person in the company knew what to do. When the server crashed, you had to call Jim. If Jim was in the office, that was fine. If Jim was busy or traveling, the entire company ground to a halt. For some reason, no one questioned this process. The server was mysterious, and Jim knew what to do.

Then, one day, we hired a new editor who obviously thought we were nuts. She followed Jim into the server room to try and begin to learn the mysteries of the server so that maybe, given enough time, she could fix it if needed. Turns out that all Jim was doing was disconnecting the power cord, counting to 30, and plugging it back in. Jim was called a lot less after that.

10. The Excel workbook

Several years ago, I started at a new company and was promptly informed that a certain Excel workbook could not be changed or updated, AT ALL. You see, the CFO had set up this workbook 15 years ago and she would be very upset if she decided to randomly open it and saw something had changed. I cannot emphasize enough how ridiculous it was that she would ever need to open this file – this company employed a little less than 1,000 people and there were four managers/executives in between our roles.

This workbook was used for a monthly process and had years’ worth of tabs and data in it. It was incredibly unstable and crashed constantly. I once asked if I could at least delete all of the tabs that were more than a year old. My managers had a meeting with a couple of executives to discuss the situation and what the CFO might do if she ever found out. And it was finally decided that the risk of her wrath was just too great and ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES could be made.

11. The calendars, part 2

I work in law. My old firm had 40-ish attorneys spread across eight courtrooms. Each courtroom has a daily calendar of all cases to be heard in that department. Rather that use any kind of digital record-keeping about what happened in court, this was the required procedure:

– Every attorney prints out a paper calendar for their department each day.
– Every attorney hand writes notes for their own cases on their copy of the calendar.
– Paper calendars get turned in to the office manager at the end of the day.
– The office manager prints clean copies of the eight department calendars, then proceeds to cut up the 40+ individual calendars handed in by the lawyers, and paste their notes onto the corresponding spot on her clean copy of the calendars.
– These frankensteined calendars then get stored in boxes forever.

It was literal cut and paste, with scissors and glue, every day, for almost 50 years. This practice only stopped when the office manager retired.

12. The ticker tape

I started at a ~3,000 employee company in 2022. I was reviewing some invoices for payment and the figures didn’t make sense so I asked one of my team in a different office to send me the backup validating the information. I was expecting an email with an excel file. No – they couriered me a hard copy package with ticker tape attached. Turns out the old manager like to review hard copy and wanted ticker tape to prove out any calculations. It took me six months to convince everyone that the world would not end and people would get paid if we used Excel and formulas.

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my employee takes credit for the whole team’s work

by Alison Green on October 22, 2024

A reader writes:

I’m a fairly experienced manager, but I’ve only been managing my current team for a few months.

I’ve been in a couple meetings with one of my team members that I’ve asked her to take the lead on, and she reports out at every meeting. Twice now, as she’s reporting I’ve heard her change her sentence from “we’re doing…” to “I’m doing…” But she’s not! The whole team is pitching in ideas and support, and sometimes they or I am actually doing the things she’s talking about. It seems like a really low-stakes thing, but we’ve had to have a couple of other conversations about working on a team, like making sure she’s not getting out ahead of my direction and being aware of how she talks about workload around her teammates. It’s been a lot, so I also don’t want to be focus unnecessarily on something that could really be minor. But she’s taking credit for other people’s work, and that’s not fair to them, and I don’t know if it makes her look particularly good, either. Should I bring it up or let it slide?

I answer this question — and two others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • Can I ask my colleagues not to mime shooting themselves?
  • Do we have to offer the job to the only applicant?
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my boss said I looked “unprofessional” when I wore a binder to work

by Alison Green on October 22, 2024

A reader writes:

I have a question about a point that is now, thankfully, moot.

My previous manager, Rufus, wasn’t an especially ethical individual and failed to fulfill many of his expected duties. He was also kind of a creep. We all just put up with his unsavory and unprofessional comments, and occasionally pushed back when we felt it was important to do so.

One situation, though, left me without clear direction. I am non-binary, though I wasn’t out at work (a few coworkers pieced it together, but it wasn’t widely known). When I began to discreetly wear a binder to work, Rufus began to make comments about how I needed to look more professional. Over time, this evolved into getting feedback on my wardrobe as often as a few times per week.

It wasn’t a one-time fluke. It was a regular part of my life for months. I tried wearing an acceptable outfit (chinos and crewneck sweater) with my binder, then again with an underwire bra. With the underwire, I was complimented on dressing professionally. With the binder or a sports bra, I was again criticized. All the while, I was actually dressing above our company standards, which were snappy casual. I stopped wearing jeans and switched to business casual (chinos, khakis, and slacks, always with a structured top and nice shoes). My binder wasn’t visible, nor did it cause visible cleavage. It didn’t matter. One person I worked with closely and who knew my gender identity actually brought my boss’s comments up to me, so I wasn’t just being sensitive.

While I don’t hold Rufus in high regard for a number of reasons, I will be fair and say I don’t think he did this on purpose. I think he just preferred the way I looked some days and didn’t bother to question what, specifically, he liked. It was kind of like when a manager asks a femme if she’s feeling okay when she forgoes makeup. Except it wasn’t makeup, it was my body, and a part of my body about which I am dysmorphic.

I never said anything. I did not feel safe outing myself to him. Instead, I asked him to elaborate what was or wasn’t professional about specific outfits. He wasn’t able to give me anything, but he also didn’t stop the comments until he abruptly quit. He just laughed when I mentioned the frequency of his comments.

Was there anything else I could have done in this situation, other than out myself to him or upper management?

P.S. This story has a happy ending. I am now under a wonderful manager who gives prompt and actionable feedback about my job and only my job. I am learning lots of interesting new skills, and I no longer dread going to work. I have had no contact with Rufus.

Rufus is an ass.

He was indeed harassing you around gender presentation — and around the appearance of your boobs, specifically — whether he was consciously aware of it or not.

And really, when a manager finds themselves giving someone repeated dress code feedback, they have a high obligation to interrogate themselves about exactly where you’re violating expectations and then provide clear and specific guidance on that. “You need to look more professional” doesn’t meet that bar. And “you don’t look sufficiently professional even though you’re in the same outfit I judged professional last week” really should have raised some flags in his mind about what his judgments were based on.

Also, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have gotten this feedback if you were just naturally flatter-chested and appeared that way every day, so either (a) in the most generous reading, he was unconsciously responding to “her figure looks less pleasing to me today” and not bothering to think about why before trying to make that your problem, or (b) he was aware of why and still felt free to make that your problem, which would make it full-on sexual harassment and would make him a terrible person. Either way: a jerk, and just a question of degrees.

If you had a time machine, it would be interesting to go back and say to him, “This is the same outfit I wore last week that you told me looked professional. Every time you’ve given me this feedback, I’ve been in nice pants, a structured top, and nice shoes. I of course want to follow our dress code, so can you please give me more specific feedback about exactly where I”m violating it?” Or simply, “Can you tell me what specifically is out of compliance, so that I can ensure I’m within the dress code going forward?”

It sounds like you did ask him to elaborate and if your framing was similar to this and still elicited no details, then ideally your next step would be HR. HR isn’t useful for every type of problem you might encounter with a boss, but for something like this — where (a) you’re being told you’re violating a company policy and you don’t think you are and/or (b) gender presentation is involved, they’re often much better trained to handle it than a random manager might be. Not always, of course — there’s bad HR out there — but if you’d gone to see HR in person on one of the days Rufus told you that you were dressed unprofessionally, relayed his feedback, explained that he was telling you this regularly, and asked for guidance, there’s a decent chance they’d have talked to Rufus and shut it down (even without you needing to out yourself).

I’m sorry you had to work for such a jackwagon and I’m glad you’re in a better job now.

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staff member says I’m triggering their unresolved trauma, employee calls me his “lady boss,” and more

by Alison Green on October 22, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My employee says I’m triggering their unresolved trauma

I have a question as to how to manage a direct report who has admitted that they have self esteem issues resulting from unresolved childhood trauma. It is evident in any dealings with them that they struggle with any form of authority being shown — they get upset with a simple question about what have they been working on since our last fortnightly check in, particularly if tasks have not been completed. I’ve always made it clear that due to the reactive nature of their role that I understand that the action plan can be pushed to the side if urgent matters pop up, I just need to understand what they are. These conversations almost always end in emotion outbursts, no matter how I handle the conversation.

It has been getting worse and now I’ve been told that I am a trigger for their trauma but they can only say that there is “something about my style” which brings back issues. I have nothing to work with! I don’t shout, I don’t blame, and I make myself available when required even if I’m busy. Other colleagues and reports have no issues with my style and have advised me that they find me approachable. I have my moments as everyone does when I’m busy because I’m human. But how do I deal with someone who has said I trigger unresolved trauma when I have nothing to work with?

You can’t solve this for them. You should let them know that if they can propose specific changes you could make that would help them, you’re open to trying to work with what they need. (You shouldn’t promise you’ll make changes before knowing what they might be, because some could be unreasonable or unworkable, but you can certainly promise that you’ll hear them out with an open mind and try to accommodate them if you can.) But you also need to be forthright about the reality that they do need to update you on their work and answer your questions about their projects; that part isn’t negotiable. If they can suggest ways to make that easier on them (for example, maybe they’d prefer sending you updates in writing ahead of your check-ins), you’ll try to work with them — but the basic facts of having a manager (that they will need to keep you updated on their work and answer questions) won’t change. Lay that out in a kind but direct way, and let them decide if they’re up for that or not. If they decide they’re not, or that they can’t, there’s no shame in that — but you should be clear that it does need to happen if they want to stay in the role.

Related:
my employee asked me not to give him any feedback

2. Was I wrong to refuse to answer coworkers’ questions about my life?

I just started a new job, and my coworkers are trying to get to know me. One of them asked me, “Are you in a relationship or married?” I don’t see what that has to do with work so I said, “Sometimes.”

Another coworker brought her kid to work. She had to tell her child, “Please stay still, you can’t just run around.” She turned to me and said, “Ahh, kids, ya know? You don’t have any kids, do you?” I said, “I might have kids” She gave me a funny look and said, “You might?” I said, “Maybe, who knows?” Could I get fired for this? How do I fix it?

This is an extremely weird way to behave with coworkers. When you work with people and are trying to get to know them, asking if they’re married or have kids is a normal thing to do. In particular, asking if you have kids is an especially normal question when someone is talking about their own kid. Answering “sometimes” to the question of whether you’re married or in a relationship is actually pretty funny, but “I might have kids” is a weird thing to say in any circumstance.

You asked whether you could get fired for this and it’s unlikely — but what is likely is that you’re coming across as rude and cold to coworkers and making people dislike you (in part because you’re coming across as if you dislike them) and that can have all kinds or professional ramifications, from people not wanting to be on projects with you, to not sharing useful info with you, to having trouble getting promoted, to ending up first on a layoff list.

You don’t need to get deeply personal with coworkers if you don’t want to, but sharing some basic facts about your life is usually a prerequisite for having warm working relationships with people. Feel free to immediately pivot the topic if you want (turning the question around and asking them about their own lives is one good way to do it, as is having some impersonal topics you don’t mind talking about — pets, books, TV, cooking) but if you’re not willing to engage warmly with people at all, yes, there will be professional consequences to that.

Related:
should I put more effort into making friends at work?

3. Employee calls me his “lady boss”

I am a female manager in a technical field. All of my direct reports are men. One of my reports consistently refers to me as “my lady boss.” He does not speak English as his first language and his native language uses gendered nouns and adjectives. He has worked in U.S. professional environments for over 30 years and has worked for me for five years. He is in the middle of the pack in terms of performance.

I don’t love the nickname but I haven’t wanted to make a big deal out of it either, except that I get looks and questions when he refers to me as My Lady Boss in front of our colleagues. How would you address this?

“Please don’t refer me as your ‘lady boss.’ I’m just your boss, or just Jane.” You could add, “Gender isn’t relevant when you identify me, just like you wouldn’t call Bob your ‘man boss.’” Alternately, “‘Lady boss’ sounds like you have an issue with female managers, which I know is not your intent.”

Related:
Employee keeps referring to me as his “manageress”

4. Should I tell the person I’m interviewing with that I’m no longer in good standing at my company?

I’ve been at my current company for about three years. For the first two years, I was considered a star performer. Since then, the company’s financials have soured, the strategy has changed, and so have the expectations for my role. I’ve also been moved to a new team where my manager and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things. All of this combined has unfortunately tanked my standing at work, and I’ve now received formal negative feedback on my performance and even had some of my responsibilities revoked.

I’m looking for new jobs, and I have gotten in touch with a former leader of my current company who’s hiring at his new company. He left while I was still a top performer, and I’m guessing he’s willing to recommend me based on that performance. My question is, would it be wise to let him know that I’m no longer doing well? I’m worried that if I don’t, he may reach out to some of our mutual colleagues and hear about it. On the other hand, I’m worried that if I share this info, it will sink my chances at getting hired by his new company.

You don’t need to warn him that you’re not doing well. His experience with you is his experience, and there’s no ethical or professional obligation to disclose that under different circumstances, things went differently. If he ends up hearing about it, so be it, but you’re not doing anything wrong by not volunteering it. (And it’s not at all uncommon for someone to do well in situation X with manager X but not thrive in situation Y with manager Y — and that generally says more about situation Y and manager Y than about the person themselves.)

5. Is a past run for office keeping me from getting job interviews?

I ran for the state legislature in 2020. I job searched in 2021 so I put it on my resume, towards the bottom with other volunteer work I’d done related to my field and only spoke about the aspects of running that relate to what I do for work. I don’t mention the party I was affiliated with or anything like that.

I had it on my resume at the time because it was so close to having run, any google search of my name only brought up information about my run. It didn’t ever feel right mentioning it in a cover letter and I was afraid leaving it off would seem weird once they did a google search.

Now I am putting in applications again. Is it possible continuing to have that on my resume is preventing me from getting interviews?

Now when you google me, there are a few different search results on page one — some related to current and past jobs, some which clearly show I was a candidate.

I absolutely don’t talk politics at work but I worry that having it on my resume makes it seem like that could be a problem. But I worry not mentioning it will come off weird once they search my name. Any advice on how to tackle this part of my professional history while job hunting?

It’s possible it’s concerning some employers. It’s more likely to come up as a concern if you ran on any particularly controversial or inflammatory planks, but even if you didn’t, some employers may wonder if you plan to run again, how it might affect work, etc. Also, by including it on your resume, you’re saying “I think this is at least somewhat relevant to my qualifications,” which may worry them if it the connection isn’t clear.

However, particularly if you were a fairly middle-of-the-road candidate, a lot of people won’t care at all.

Regardless, though, you can just leave it off. It 100% will not come across as weird if they google you and see that you ran for office four years ago but didn’t put it on your resume. There’s nothing shady or odd about not including it on your resume; resumes are marketing documents, not exhaustive lists of everything you’ve ever done. You can simply leave it off and make it a non-issue.

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my coworker escalates EVERYTHING until she gets her way

by Alison Green on October 21, 2024

A reader writes:

I work for a small company (less than 50 people) and Jane has been with us for about four years. She came with a lot of fanfare because she is specialist in her field and has a history of otherworldly production. Jane loves having a squad of adoring colleagues and subordinates and is, to say the least, a diva.

She also escalates every conflict to the C-suite, no matter how small. Tell her no … it goes up to the CEO. Ask her to do something different … same thing. And she’s placated most of the time because if not, her beef goes to the board of directors.

Jane was restricted from purchasing for a couple of days because she doesn’t follow guidelines and of course it made it all the way to the board president, who reversed the CFO’s decision.

I know this is poor management and even poorer employee conduct, but what to do? I am looking for other employment opportunities.

It’s one thing for Jane to escalate to the CEO in such a small company — but the board? The first time that happened, the board should have told her they don’t get involved in day-to-day management decisions and directed her back to her manager. And now that the CEO sees it’s happening so frequently, she should be shutting down the vast majority of the escalations — sending Jane back to her own manager and including making it clear that Jane’s manager has the final call in 99% of what comes up.

Moreover, if the CEO disagrees with the calls Jane’s manager is making enough to want to reverse them so often, that’s a sign that the CEO and Jane’s manager needs to get themselves better aligned so that they’re not making such different calls.

On your end of things: you’re in a cesspool of mismanagement that for whatever reason wants to keep placating Jane. If no one above you is willing to take this on, the best thing you can do is to work on emotionally detaching from it. Remind yourself that it’s their company, not yours, and if they want to bend over backwards to placate Jane on the reg, so be it. It’s going to make you less emotionally invested in your job and less engaged in your work, which is bad for them in the long run, but that’s what happens when a company operates this way.

One caveat: if Jane is truly a rock star, is there any chance she’s right about a lot of what she’s escalating? Particularly if she was brought in to improve operations in her area, there’s at least a possibility that she’s in the right … and if she was specifically brought in to change the way things work, there’s even a chance that she was told to escalate things  … which could explain why she’s getting her way so often. It could be interesting to look at it through that lens for a while and see if it changes anything about your conclusions.

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is it weird to send work emails late at night?

by Alison Green on October 21, 2024

A reader writes:

Last night around 11 pm, my husband suddenly remembered that he had forgotten to email someone back about a meeting request, and was about to respond when I said it looked weird to be emailing at 11 pm. He asked why and I had no good reason, except that it seemed weird to let people know that you’re up and thinking about work that late?

I wonder if I’m extra-cautious because I work as a contractor and so I try very hard not to email at off-hours so as not to give the impression that they can expect me to be up all hours. But you’re not going to lose much time if you send it at 9:30 am rather than something sitting in their inbox when they arrive. What do you think?

I answer this question — and two others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • My team keeps holding lunches at a restaurant that doesn’t accommodate my allergy
  • When I turn down a job, can I recommend someone else?
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{ 195 comments }

argumentative coworker always says, “repeat back to me the point I just made”

by Alison Green on October 21, 2024

A reader writes:

I am a middle manager who works with an employee I’ll call “John.” John does not report to me, but there are scenarios in which I supervise aspects of John’s work and am in a position to give him feedback.

John has a lot of experience (he’s been doing his job about as long as I’ve been alive), but at times he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. He reacts defensively to most disagreements/feedback and regularly gives staff feedback and suggestions that directly contradict what managers have told them to do. He also is willing to die on pretty much every hill (let’s say we were making teapots with flowers painted on them and each flower had six petals; John would loudly and publicly insist it is CRUCIAL that the flowers have seven petals, to the point of making a scene in front of his peers). There have been times when I have had to pull John aside to discuss this behavior.

One thing John does in those conversations drives me bonkers. He will insist I don’t understand his argument, and then say some variation of, “Repeat back to me the point I was just making.”

This feels so condescending and I hate it. I recognize I may be sensitive to this in part because of the gender dynamics (he is a man and I am a woman, and he has done this with other female managers). It feels like he is a professor who is scolding his student.

On the other hand, I don’t want to overlook something I could improve in our interactions simply because his behavior gives me the ick. I now try to summarize his points early on in the conversation (“what I’m hearing you say is…”), but somehow we still usually end up with him pushing me to repeat his argument back to him. It almost feels like an attitude of “Clearly you don’t understand my point, otherwise you would agree,” but of course I don’t know for sure that that is his intention.

What can I do to help improve the quality of our conversations without being a pushover?

Ugh, yes, he sounds condescending.

There are times when it can make sense to say something like, “Can you tell me your understanding of my concern, so we can spot if something is getting lost in translation?” And when I’m managing someone and assigning work, I’m a fan of, “To make sure we’re on the same page and I didn’t miss anything, can you do a quick summary of next steps?” (The latter can be really helpful because managers sometimes think they’ve been clear about their expectations and then are shocked to discover that the other person came away with a very different understanding.)

But the minute there’s any whiff of any condescension in your tone or manner, this will stop sounding collaborative and start sounding obnoxious. And it doesn’t sound like John is doing it in contexts where it would make sense; as you say, it sounds more like he implying, “Maybe you aren’t smart enough to understand what I’m saying.”

Since he clearly thinks this is an acceptable way to communicate, I’m curious what would happen if you start doing it back to him to  level the playing field. The next time he asks you to repeat back his point, do it — and then say, “And now I’d like to ask you to repeat back the point I was making too, so we can ensure we’re both understanding each other.” Do this a few times and he might dislike it enough that he’ll stop doing it to you. Or who knows, maybe it will result in improved communication on both sides, which would also be good!

There’s also the option of simply telling him how it’s coming across. For example: “I get the sense you’re asking me to repeat back your point because you assume I must be misunderstanding or I’d agree with you. That’s not the case.” And maybe: “You’re coming across as very adversarial right now. Is that what you intend?” (You need to say this calmly and in a tone of genuine curiosity — don’t sound agitated or it loses its power.)

But also, John sounds like a tool and, if you haven’t already, it might be useful to share some feedback about his approach with his manager.

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colleague wants help raising money for a bad idea, CEO doesn’t want anonymous questions, and more

by Alison Green on October 21, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Church member at my job wants help raising money for a bad idea

I work for a small church, of which I am also a member. Laurel has been a member for many years and works as a freelance bookkeeper. For many years, the church supported her ministry (for the sake of anonymity, let’s say it’s tree planting trips to Chile) through an ongoing support group and individual donations. She raises about $10,000 yearly. I spent around 100 hours last year working on administrative tasks for Laurel’s project.

I am a terrible bookkeeper and caused Laurel much consternation. I do other parts of the job well, so the church kept me on and has contracted with Laurel to work as the bookkeeper one day a week. We’ve clashed over minor but irritating things, like can a small office fit both the new desk that Laurel added, and a couch that she likes.

Today, a member of her group contacted me to see if I could look for grants that would help pay for Laurel’s upcoming trip. In looking online for more info about Laurel’s work, I was surprised to find out she has no forestry background, no training in habitat restoration, or any background on Chilean ecology. She decides on her own where and what trees should be planted. It turns out that she’s planting trees that aren’t native to Chile and are bad for the soil, and missionaries from our church have a long history in the region of making local people feel terrible about those trees when they die.

I have a graduate and undergraduate degree in forestry, and one of them is specifically in South American habitat restoration. I’ve worked in the field for a decade, spent time in Peru studying tree restoration programs, and published a paper on the topic. While I don’t use that now, I’m qualified to evaluate whether a tree planting program is more likely to harm than help. Laurel’s program is harmful.

$10,000 is an outrageous amount of money to raise for the length and scope of her project. She has always provided financial reports to her group, which I have not read. I suspect the amount is high because of things like Laurel giving money directly to local farmers she’s made friends with. She also pays for a class of travel that an older person would need to be comfortable, and compensates herself for the lost bookkeeping income she incurs during these trips. I don’t think she’s scamming anyone; I do think this whole thing is harmful to Chileans and a terrible use of money.

I assume no one has said anything over the years about Laurel’s planting trips to Chile because “I am called to restore habitats in Chile, will you help me?” is a hard ask to cast doubt on, plus takes some pretty niche knowledge to question.

None of this is sitting right with me. How much of this is my business? How much of this is bitch-eating-crackery about the office couch and sweating to get Laurel’s donation reports right? Should I say something to Laurel’s committee member or my supervisor, and if so, what?

Yes, you should say something to your manager. She’s misusing church money (even if unintentionally) and causing harm rather than helping, and you happen to be particularly equipped to see that in ways that others there aren’t. Frame it as: “Jane asked me to look for grants to help fund Laurel’s trip and in doing that I learned XYZ. I’m concerned because ___ and it seems like a poor use of church money and resources. I don’t feel comfortable with what I learned so I’m bringing it to you.” Make sure to mention your background in the field as well.

It’s your business because you’re part of the organization supporting her. It’s not bitch-eating-crackery because these are serious issues. You might feel extra agitated since you’re not Laurel’s biggest fan, but the issues are legitimate ones that you’d have an ethical obligation to raise even if she were your best friend.

For what it’s worth, Laurel shouldn’t be in charge of bookkeeping if that gives her extra autonomy over the funds that ultimately flow her way. And “compensates herself for the lost bookkeeping income she incurs during these trips” is particularly alarming — does that have someone else’s sign-off? That means the church is essentially employing her on these missions and makes her less of a volunteer, and that amplifies all these concerns further.

2. CEO said anonymous questions about the company cause resentment

My organization lost a major contract recently, and we’re preparing for layoffs of a few departments in the next few months. Everyone’s stressed out about it and there are a lot of unknowns, so the CEO is doing weekly all-staff meetings, optional for non-senior staff. These have mostly been Q&A sessions, with occasional announcements as more information is available.

In our most recent meeting, someone asked whether it would be possible for staff to ask questions anonymously, since some of these are hard topics. We don’t really have a culture where people need to fear reprisal, but all the same, it seems totally reasonable to me why someone wouldn’t feel comfortable asking questions publicly. Our CEO’s response was that in the past, when we’ve had ways for staff to provide anonymous feedback, the people who put their name on theirs were resentful of those who didn’t, and that people should find another way to ask their questions. (For context about those past ways, they were short-lived. Once people started asking hard questions — about DEI concerns, mainly — leadership made excuses to get rid of them.)

Is that answer as BS as I think it is? If we’re concerned about staff being resentful of each other, I’m much more concerned about the people who’ve been denied anonymity being resentful, especially toward leadership and the organization in general! I know there’s nothing I can do about this — I don’t have that kind of influence — but it feels pretty slimy to me and I’d love a reality check.

Yeah, that’s a BS and cowardly answer. When everyone is offered the opportunity to ask anonymous questions, people who choose to attach their names anyway don’t tend to be resentful of the people who don’t! That’s a really odd argument.

If anyone felt resentful at the time, it’s a lot more more likely that it was the leadership — who were getting confronted with uncomfortable questions and who knew the anonymity was making people more willing to ask them.

3. Is it weird to mention you researched your interviewers on LinkedIn?

Is it a faux pas for a candidate to read the LinkedIn profiles of the interviewers — and mention it during the interview during the normal course of conversation?

Are candidates supposed to pretend they are not doing their homework? How many interviewers are not expecting to be looked up at all?

It’s a faux pas if you do it in a creepy way (like you have their complete professional history memorized and make sure to mention you know all five of the states they’ve lived in) or if you try to shoehorn what you found into the conversation in an unnatural way. It’s not a faux pas if it comes up organically and is relevant to the conversation — like “I saw you worked at the Taco Union — I used the research you put out on guacamole-to-jalapeño ratio in my last job” or “I saw you used to work with Valentina Mulberry — she’s been a mentor of mine for a long time” or so forth.

4. My new office building keeps giving me static shocks

My office recently consolidated locations with our parent organization over the summer, which I was fine with (shorter commute!) until, to my horror, I started experiencing static shocks almost every time I touch a metal door handle, elevator button, dishwasher, etc. Every time I reach for anything metal, I am flinching in anticipation of a shock, which has been noticed by coworkers. Sometimes from me yanking my hand back in pain, and other times from the very audible crackle of static.

It is definitely localized to this new office location as I don’t have these static problems outside or at home or anywhere else, but I’ve asked around and no one else has confirmed they have this issue. It is starting to genuinely impact my mood in the office as I am now nervous about anything metal, but somehow it seems like a silly thing to ask about. Is a request to increase building humidity reasonable? Is there any advice for what I can do to make my office day less shocking? Help!

It’s definitely reasonable to talk to someone in facilities or similar and explain you’re regularly getting static shocks in the building, and ask if they can increase the humidity and/or do an anti-static treatment in the building. You could also consider bringing in a humidifier for your own work area (which won’t help with the rest of the building but will at least help with the area you’re in most often), trying an anti-static wristband (although there’s conflicting info on whether or not they work), and also moisturizing the hell out of your hands. And while this is getting way outside of my area of expertise, I do see advice online that wearing natural fabrics rather than synthetics can help. Anyone else?

5. Should I reach out to someone who previously offered me a job?

Two and a half years ago, I was job searching and ended up in a great position — I had two offers the same week. I did some negotiating and when I accepted one offer, I called the other folks and let them know how much I enjoyed the interview process with them. They let me know that they’d love to hear from me if I ever wanted to come work for them.

I’m starting to job search a little now, and I saw a position posted with that agency that fits my experience very well. I applied on the job posting site, but would it be too much to also send an email to the folks I had previously interviewed with? A quick LinkedIn search shows they’re still with the agency.

Not too much at all. They invited you to contact them in exactly these circumstances, and you should. Say something like, “We met in 2022 when I interviewed for the X position on your team. I ended up declining your offer but really enjoyed our conversations and learning about the work you do, and you asked me to let you know if my circumstances ever changed. I’m thinking about moving on from my current role and saw you’re hiring for Y. I’d love to talk with you again if you think I might be a match for that role.” And include your resume.

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open thread – October 18, 2024

by Alison Green on October 18, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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