open thread – March 4-5, 2016

by Alison Green on March 4, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,322 comments }

{ 1,322 comments… read them below }

  1. 12345678910112 do do do*

    Rice Sculpture

    I’ve noticed that “Rice Sculpture” is Alison’s new example-du-jour. A quick search of the AAM archives reveals that rice sculpture or sculpting is not mentioned before Feb 12, 2016,

    February 12, 2016 post “people keep telling me how hot my field is, I got a bad reference but don’t know who it was, and more” – “so tell me about Norman’s new RICE SCULPTURE!”

    February 15, 2016 post “letting a manager know employee is job-searching, texting recruiters, and more” – “It’s like how you wouldn’t put, say, your weekend RICE SCULPTING hobby on your resume, but it would be perfectly appropriate to include your job doing PR for the Rice Sculptors Union.”

    February 18, 2016 post “attending an employee’s wedding, interns and gift-giving, and more” – “Hey, we’re giving Fergus this amazing RICE SCULPTURE that we found on Etsy”

    March 3, 2016 post “how do I write a compelling cover letter when I don’t have much work experience?” – “I founded and led a campus drive to raise funds for a RICE SCULPTURE of the university president”

    My question is, what is rice sculpting? Are these sculptures cut from a single grain of rice or from many mashed-together grains? Short, medium, or long-grain? Is there a particular rice sculpture that has inspired this new metaphor? Is it related at all to underwater basketweaving? Is this a diversification of the teapot market?

    Also, the word Sculpture looks funny when you write it this many times.

    1. Adam*

      I googled to see if this was really a thing (and of course it was) and I saw lots of images of figures assembled from what I can only assume would be thousands of individual grains of rice. Many were pretty impressive. It looks like white rice was what was commonly used but I’d be curious to see if rice of different shapes and colors could be integrated into the designs as well.

      Just one problem for me: a piece of art like this I would want to be able to touch, because I bet the texture would be amazing.

      1. AMT*

        Next you’ll be telling us that you can’t really make teapots out of chocolate. I’m losing faith.

        3. Anonsie*

          Recently I had a story on here about teapots at work and had to put a side note that it actually was teapots in this particular situation, not a euphemism. I now wonder if this is the first time someone has posted here about a job in which teapots were actually literally part of the gig.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            While we aren’t really a teapot company (gah! I have spoiled the illusion!), we actually have a few teapots to sell. They came into our product base after “Wakeen’s Teapots, Ltd.” came to be on AAM and you can imagine I was like: OMG!! TEAPOTS!!!!!! :-)

      2. 12345678910112 do do do*

        Oh wow:

        And when I picture them being sculpted, I picture that Demi Moore scene from Ghost (minus the Patrick Swayze distraction).

        This is amazing.

  2. Anon for today*

    I’m looking for a help for a friend re-entering the workforce. She’s been out of the official working world for a while, at least a decade, and needs help with her resume.

    More specifics: my friend is a woman in her mid-fifties. Her marriage of 30+ years is ending and he was the breadwinner. She worked early on in their marriage, mostly odd jobs and sales type positions I think, but once his business (auto/home insurance) got going she moved to being a stay-at home mother/homemaker who would also assist with various administrative aspects of her husband’s business here and there. It’s been years since she had an actual job, but she does do volunteer work and is fairly proficient with computers. She has two kids who are fully grown and out of the house.

    She has lots of friends who will help her with contacts to possible positions, but she needs help putting together a resume and I’m not sure how best to advise her considering her circumstances. I don’t know if she has any idea what she wants to do, but I get the feeling just paying the bills is a more pressing concern than finding something truly satisfying. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. ZSD*

      Wow. What a rough situation for your friend. Send her my best wishes.
      In terms of putting together a resume, this is really basic, but I’d start with sending her yours in Word (or other editable) format so that she can just copy your formatting. Figuring out how to format a modern resume might honestly be one hurdle she’s facing!
      Then, I’d suggest having a conversation with her about accomplishments that she can list. This should focus on the admin work she did for her husband’s business and on the volunteer work, not on the work from 30 years ago.
      And of course she should read the AAM archives on resumes.
      The good news is that if she’s just looking for something to pay the bills, not something challenging and fulfilling, she can apply for more entry-level positions, where demonstrating lots of accomplishments might not be as necessary.
      (Then there’s the problem of how to deal with age discrimination…)

      1. EA*

        I agree. I watched my mother re-enter the workforce after a 10 year break. She thought the admin volunteer work she did for our schools didn’t count, because she wasn’t paid and it wasn’t full time. Once I restructured her resume to include that, she did much better. Obviously, its complicated because she worked for her ex-husband. I would just recommend she presents everything objectively. She can call herself an admin, and say she did intermittent duties as needed at the company.

      2. The Butcher of Luverne*

        I would not even raise the specter of age discrimination — it’s too negative and unhelpful. I also think that today, 50 is hardly over the hill or an automatic “she’s too old.”

        If she’s going for entry level, her attitude will do more to position her favorably than her resume. Businesses appreciate a level-headed, loyal, dependable worker who knows what true customer service means. Help her see that she can fill a need, not that she’s the needy one.

        1. Observer*

          I also think that today, 50 is hardly over the hill or an automatic “she’s too old.”

          Unfortunately, that’s not how many employers think. I agree, it’s stupid. But we all know that a lot of people are stupid, and a lot of smart people have a few stupid ideas. And, this is one of the common ones, unfortunately.

          1. TootsNYC*

            then again, I know employers who would leap at the chance to hire someone that age who’s coming into the workforce at a salary point that’s more entry level.

            1. Observer*

              The smart ones would. The not so smart ones – or the ones who think that classes like the one @gold digger mentions are widely necessary – not so much.

              If you think you are going to have to teach someone the very basics of what needs to be done in an office, they just are not so attractive, even for an more entry level position.

          2. the gold digger*

            I was so happy to see a new hire announcement at my job a few months ago saying that the guy had 30 years experience.

            I was not impressed to see our recreation center offering classes on how to use email for adults over 50. Honestly. My mother, who is 73, has a degree in computer science.

            1. Observer*

              Tell me about it. My mother doesn’t have a degree, but she does email just fine.

              On the other hand, we run senior centers. Some of our seniors are savvy enough to be something like backup tech support for the centers. Some, on the other hand really don’t know the basics. And there is everything in between. I know that there are plans to do a class on getting good photos with your smart phone at one of the centers.

        2. Development Professional*

          I have to say that I agree. Depending on how proficient she is with computers, I know of at least one open position at my organization that’s basically entry level that no one would bat an eye at hiring someone 50+ for.

      3. Anon for today*

        When focusing on the Admin work how would you structure it in a resume? It wasn’t an official position, so for a traditional resume format she would be making up a job title and all that. Would you list the time served as well, even though it wasn’t a day-to-day, year-after-year type thing?

        1. The Butcher of Luverne*

          Maybe something like:

          Administrative Assistant, 1988- 2014, as-needed basis
          Auto/Home Insurance Company Name
          Bullet point tasks

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I’ve hired a few return-to-work women in the last several years. I would advise the following:
      – Don’t try to pad the resume a la “CEO of household”. I don’t need a CEO. Highlight relevant work experience from the insurance business and volunteering.
      – It’s okay to admit that you need the work. Money is a need.
      – Don’t apologize for opting to stay at home.
      – Be enthusiastic about returning to work. My return-to-work people are some of my best employees and they seem to appreciate this new season of life, even if it isn’t what they imagined.
      – It’s okay to focus on a job vs. a career. I don’t expect everyone I hire to make this the great passion of their life – just a piece of the puzzle that they appreciate and enjoy.

      Good luck to your friend in this new season!

      1. HR Recruiter*

        I agree with all of this. As well as making sure she includes her volunteer work and skills she used there. A good cover letter explaining the motivation for wanting a X job after being out of the workforce is great too. Just leave out personal information like the divorce.

      2. RKB*

        I’m glad you highlighted that women (and men, but this is more of a sociological aspect with gender and work) really enjoy returning to work as its a new part of their life.

        It’s not the same thing — but my mother is 50 and she just got promoted to a different position in a totally different office with different duties. She made her first ever six figures. She is so delighted. She loves the work she does and enjoys these new challenges.

        Too often I think employers, employees, and even women themselves write off their abilities after their 40s because they presume it’s time for grandma years and thus they have no value. No way! Women excel at any age. My immigrant mother could have never imagined a fulfilling career at 50, but it’s possible for everyone!

        Thanks for what you do!

        1. Natasha*

          Hey RKB,

          My immigrant mother is in a similar position at a similar age, and I am so proud and happy for her! She did stay at home with my brother for nearly a decade, so she also faced the difficulty of reentering the work force the writer above mentions, though I don’t have any advice to add besides that having friends and connections is a big part of making the transition work and that a person in their 50s may be more likely to have a wider circle of people in a position to help. So that’s one advantage that comes with age, and I agree with your statement that women can excel at any age.

    3. Anna No Mouse*

      It sounds like your friend would meet the definition of a “displaced homemaker.” I am familiar with the program that exists to help them within my state, and it’s not the most helpful thing in terms of finding a job, but she should start by finding out if there is such a program in her state. They can offer training, job search assistance, and even childcare if needed.

      Also, in terms of paying bills, her state may have short term assistance available for things like utility bills. She should look into that while she job seeks. Because of her break in employment, it may take her longer than average to find something, so her first priority should be keeping her lights on and a roof over her head. Pride may have to take a backseat for now, but being secure is the best way she can be in the right mindset for finding a job.

    4. Turanga Leela*

      I like ZSD’s advice about giving her your resume so she can copy the formatting. Help her work on a cover letter as well—that’s a good place to explain that she’s been out of the workforce while she raised her kids, but she’s looking to work again now.

      This must feel like such a scary time for her. I’m glad you are there to help her (and it sounds like she has other friends helping too).

    5. Sualah*

      I don’t know if it’s the same now, but when I was using temp agencies to apply for jobs (gosh, 10 years ago), no resume was required. They had an application to fill out, and things like typing proficiency tests, but a resume wasn’t required. She would probably look like a really attractive candidate if she submitted a resume and cover letter to those places with the application. Once she gets her foot in the door with a temp job (or temp-to-perm job), she will have some more traditional things to put on a resume for the next job.

      Also, depending on your area, if she would be OK working a call center, those are almost always hiring, and usually 4-8 weeks paid training before actually starting on the floor. That was my foot in the door at my job. It can be draining for sure, but at least it is a job that once you walk out the door, you absolutely leave it behind, no emails at home to follow up with.

    6. Student*

      Realistically, what is she qualified to do? Given your presentation of her prior work experience, it sounds like she probably needs to aim lower than work that usually requires a resume. If your depiction is accurate, she doesn’t have any professional accomplishments or skills worth mentioning on a resume, so what exactly would be the point?

      There are lots of jobs that are unskilled and geared at unskilled laborers, and those are probably where she should aim until or unless she acquires some relevant job skills. Store cashier, physical labor jobs if she’s in good shape, maybe work at a cleaning agency or as a janitor, young-age childcare facility, stuff like that. If she’s good with computers, perhaps a technical help-desk type job at a local school or small business. I won’t say the jobs are plentiful, but it sounds like it’d make the best use of her homemaker experience and give her an avenue to build up more professional-level skills for a couple years down the road.

      Otherwise, maybe it’s time for her to try to drum up money for some professional training of some sort. Local community college program? Training program for a low-level healthcare worker? Volunteer work somewhere she can develop specific professional skills? Any local or state-run resources that might help her? If that’s not in the cards, she’ll pretty much have to hope someone hires her based on pure friendship and/or nepotism.

      1. lawsuited*

        Erm, she has experience in sales and administrative duties so I assume she’s be looking for a sales or administrative position? Where I live, even people applying for a cashier or retail sales associate position use a resume (they may complete a job application form as well), and certainly anyone looking to work as a receptionist or administrative assistant would need a resume.

      2. Observer*

        These are some very odd suggestions, in my experience.

        young-age childcare facility, Do you really think that this is “unskilled labor” that doesn’t need a resume and / or some background? Think again.

        If she’s good with computers, perhaps a technical help-desk type job at a local school or small business. Seriously? No reasonable place is going to hire someone who has NEITHER formal training NOR recent relevant work experience. And, that means ACTUALLY SUPPORTING people. “Being good with computers” does not come CLOSE to being a reasonable background for that type of job.

        On the other hand, her experience does mean that she probably DOES have the skills for an office admin / office manager type of job. The issue here is not the skills, but a way to show a prospective employer that she has one.

    8. Susan*

      I’d suggest that she also go to a local government employment office. They should be able to help with her resume too and they may have good connections with employers looking to hire for entry level roles. Also she should contact recruiters like Robert half office team.

  3. Someone else*

    Is there a way to encourage coworkers to think critically and troubleshoot things on their own instead of coming to me for ideas? I don’t mind because I’m good at it, but I feel like it could strengthen the team if others were able to do it. Since I’m only their peer, I don’t know if there’s a way to do this without coming across as bossy.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think talking them through it is the best way to go. It takes a little more work on the front end, but it will pay off more in the long run. It’s the whole “teach a person to fish…” concept.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      And if they’re coming to you for help, you aren’t coming across as bossy if you actually tell them what to do.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Can you ask questions?

      I do this a lot with my staff. Rather than saying “go do X,” I start with “what have you tried?” And when they come back with nothing I’ll try something like, “What did you try last time when Y happened?”

      I’ve found tone is the key to this (because I often have to do it for my boss!) if I sound caring and helpful, people react well and feel great that they solved the problem.

      1. HR Recruiter*

        This! If you always give them the answer they will never leave you alone. I learned the hard way you have to teach them how to find the answer and point them in the right direction. But do so in a way that sounds helping. If you are too harsh they won’t come to you in the future which leads to them making big mistakes. But if you guide them then they will start only coming to you when they truly need your help and have exhausted other options.

        1. TootsNYC*

          They ask a question about how to do something in Word, and you say, “I don’t remember, I think there’s something in one of the drop-down menus. Have you rummaged around in those?”

          So you say, “No, I won’t help, have you tried Tactic?” (Not solution, tactic.)

    4. Adam*

      Always ask what ideas they considered and tried before coming to you. That will at least get the concept going in their head that they can solve things on their own without your input. If they keep coming to you at first blush without thinking about it beforehand perhaps you can gently point that out?

    6. Shiara*

      Something I’ve had some success with is making them wait 15ish minutes while I finish whatever I’m in the middle of, and then if they haven’t gotten it figured out themselves when I follow up, asking what they’ve tried with more of a “I don’t want to rego over solutions you already attempted” than a quizzing tone, and then trying to do some of my troubleshooting aloud.

    7. Kay*

      Yeah, Alison’s covered a lot of this kind of thing in the “advice about your coworkers” section. You can use the “search this site” box near the top of the page if you want to narrow your results.

      1. Someone else*

        She just posted a helpful link above! I thought I remembered reading about it but thought it was targeted toward managers. So much for my own troubleshooting/critical thinking skills ;)

    8. K*

      “What have you tried so far?” is a good question. It implies that they should attempt to solve it themselves, and it starts the troubleshooting conversation.

    9. Kimberlee, Esq*

      On the obverse of this, I have become better at troubleshooting myself rather than going to a manager by thinking for a moment “What is the first question Manager will ask me?” Usually, I know what it will be, so I can go through the steps to make sure I can answer the question. Sorta like power-cycling your computer before calling tech support not because you think it will help, but because you know it’s the first thing they’ll ask, and they’ll make you do it anyway. And of course, sometimes it works. Then I just keep working thru questions until I don’t know what she’ll ask me anymore, and then I go to her for help. This process has helped me find dozens of solutions that I was initially inclined to ask my manager for.

    10. TootsNYC*

      I feel like we’ve covered this in comments lots of other recent posts, so rummaging around here might help.

      Especially the one about the boss who won’t answer a question.

      There’s the “tell it to the duck” school of debugging: explain your problem in depth, and suddenly you see the solution.

      Also–don’t help them. Be too busy; then it will be EASIER to figure it out than to ask you.
      Right now they ask you, and you do the heavy lifting. Stop.

      My mother used to say to us, “What would you do if I weren’t here?”

      1. JaneB*

        My mother used to say to us, “What would you do if I weren’t here?”

        And we used to say:
        “wait ’til you got home” or “ignore it” or “eat toast for tea” or “set the laundry on fire”

        My sister and I weren’t the best of students in the home context…

  4. TGIF*

    I just found a job posting that sounds right up my alley. However, before I started on the application, I realized that employer is a small company where a former co-worker, let’s call her Judy, is now working.

    Judy was the head of marketing/public relations where I’m currently working. I didn’t directly report to her but I saw her every day and we did work together on occasion, mostly when I was assisting with front desk duty or with a public event. She was really nice and I know she liked me, but I don’t think she thought much of my capabilities. She often complimented me on always being willing to pitch in with any task but was constantly correcting me for minor things (if I didn’t give the perfect greeting when talking to customers or if I wasn’t fast enough to transfer calls). Never mean or harsh but I always felt Judy was nitpicking on me above everyone else (maybe because I was the youngest and newest person in our whole department?). There were others factors too that all gathered together made me think that she appreciated my effort but I didn’t live up to her standards.

    So all of that makes me think that if she heard I was applying, she’d have them toss my application. Plus there’s the fact that she’s still in close contact with my supervisor and the other departments heads so she could potentially give them a heads up that I’m searching around.

    Given all this, should I just skip this posting? Should I apply and hope Judy doesn’t get wind of it (unlikely, it’s a small company and I think this posting would work fairly close with her)? Should I reach out to her to ask about the post but also request she not say anything to her former workplace?

    1. fposte*

      Apply and don’t fuss about Judy. Either you’ll get it or you won’t, but there’s no point in trying to manage her on this.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yup. You could be right about her…or maybe she was like that with most people, and you didn’t notice; or she thought you were extremely capable, and that’s how some people try to “encourage” those who they think are not living up to their potential.

        Or maybe she’ll have nothing to do with the hiring, so it won’t matter. There’s only one way to find out….

        1. Dan*

          I have “nothing to do with hiring” either, but that doesn’t stop our HR department from asking me what I know about people from a former workplace. Some people I know better than others, and some people I know more based on reputation. My current org has hired several people from my former work place, and now, they basically say that they won’t hire others from there unless one of us here can give a strong recommendation.

          If a former coworker who I couldn’t “recommend” reached out and tried to manage me, they wouldn’t get far. My obligation is certainly to my current employer than it would ever be to someone who I couldn’t get a strong positive reference to.

          At the same time, there’s really nothing to lose by applying.

      2. limenotapple*

        This is great advice. Also, without having concrete evidence, it is hard to know what is really in another person’s mind. It’s hard to know why she nitpicked, and what she thinks now. Apply! Good luck!

    2. Elle*

      Another angle to consider…maybe she saw a lot of potential in you, and so tried to steer you in the right direction on certain matters she saw as correctable. I could be totally misreading it, but as others said, you don’t have much control of what she does, so you might as well proceed with your application.

      1. K*

        This is true. If she wasn’t your direct manager (meaning your performance didn’t reflect back on her), and she made the effort to give you feedback that may be a sign that she thought you had potential. I generally don’t put much effort into people that are lost causes. But, at the same time since she wasn’t your manager and nitpicked you there’s a high change that she just has a meddlesome personality. You may want to think twice about whether you’d want to work with her again at a small company.

    3. TootsNYC*

      What do people think about reaching out to Judy: “I saw that position, and I think it’s right up my alley. What can you tell me about it? Do you think it would be a good match for my skills?”

      Maybe even saying, “…a good position for me, especially now that I’ve got more years of experience.” To remind her that you are more experienced than you used to be.

      (also, if she’d like this frequently, that may make any negative comments be taken with a grain of salt, or she may even know she’s kind of picky, and will not apply her narrow standards to you now.)

    4. Another Job Seeker*

      If I were in a similar position, I’d probably pass on this position. Since Judy is in close contact with your supervisor and others in leadership roles at your current company, might she feel obliged to tell them that you are looking for a new job? Best wishes to you – whatever you decide.

  5. Over Development*

    I just wanted to give a huge THANK YOU to everyone on the open threads who has offered advice or sympathy about my frustrations with my current job and boss.

    I have a new job! I’m going back to a big organization and will be raising money for something I am truly passionate about.

    But honestly, without AAM and this open thread, I don’t know if I would have gotten over my apathy and anger enough to be a good candidate. THANK YOU!

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Will you say more about this part: “I don’t know if I would have gotten over my apathy and anger enough to be a good candidate” — what helped you do that?

      1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

        There were a couple of things. From reading AAM, I realized that I had become the person my coworkers could be writing in about because I was so miserable. Also, your answers to people’s questions also made me take a long hard look at the fact that things in my office simply are not going to change. I refer to our department as an “Emperor’s New Clothes” situation because no one will acknowledge how bad of a manager my boss is (for point of reference of her four-person team, we have two vacant positions, and both of the remain folks have put in notice)

        From the folks on the open thread, I saw that some of the things that were frustrating me were common (i.e. board involvement), but because of my other issues, I saw it through distorted lenses. There were also a few folks that offered harsh but true criticism of my outlook, which forced me to confront why these things were such big issues. This also made me start refining what my “perfect job” would be from a unicorn position to the job I actually applied for.

        Finally, I bought your book! As I was working on my cover letters and preparing for interviews, I realized that I was still carrying my baggage with me. I was working on a cover letter and muttering pissy comments to myself, and it was a wake-up call that I couldn’t carry this attitude with me. I have not prepared for interviews like this since I was applying for my first job. I enlisted two different friends to have me practice, and they grilled me on the “why are you leaving this job” question.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            And now you have inspired a few people. We may never know just how many.
            Congrats.

        4. Fish Microwaer*

          Thank you for your forthrightness. We are often told that we can’t change crap, only our reaction to it and to do that one must start with honest self evaluation which is difficult. Your experience shows how valuable this can be when approached with courage and resolve. Best wishes on your success. You’ve earned it.

    7. HardwoodFloors*

      I second that AAM has been lifesaver in a stressful (8 month) job search for me. I am awaiting a written job offer from a company that a former supervisor of mine is a higher up at. I found relief in reading others had some of the same frustrations: horrible ATS questions, interviews with unprepared interviewers (‘Of course the big boss who interviews everyone and is always here is not on site today so we can’t go further with you interview process, ever’), validation that a former job was a toxic environment-And no need waste time crying over the past. And of course some of the laughs really, really helped. Thanks a million to Alison and community.

      1. Jean*

        >And of course some of the laughs really, really helped.
        +1 million
        Humor is almost always helpful.

    9. Jean*

      Congratulations and thank you! It’s good to hear that you found a better situation after accepting reality about your Exjob (rather than being immobilized by your wish that the situation would change) and assimilating some tough-to-hear feedback. If you can do it, so can the rest of us who feel hip-deep in glue, peanut butter, or another sticky, unhelpful substance.

  6. isthisreallife?*

    Please let me know if I’m being oversensitive. Yesterday at 3 or so, the VP of the company sent out an email to several departments saying that the CEO scheduled a meeting for today at 1. No other info. Most of us work remotely, so a last minute meeting is a real inconvenience and the lack of info made a lot of people panic. The CEO heard about the concern and worry, laughed about it, and still refused to share any information. Is she as much of a jerk as I think she is?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Did anyone reply to the email? I don’t know if “jerk” is the appropriate label (could be a jerk or clueless). Honestly meetings with no agenda are scary. They’re not often “Surprise! Everyone’s getting a 25% raise!” announcements…

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I got one of those on a Friday once, for a Monday meeting. Normally responsive boss ignored my follow up request for anything I might bring/do in preparation.

        It was not good news, that Monday. And I spent the entire weekend wondering what the hell was going to happen in this meeting because the messaging was so out of character. Note to bosses: don’t do this. If you’ve got perceptive people on your staff, they’ll figure out that something’s up. So either have the meeting that day, or don’t call for it until you’re ready to have it right then and there.

    2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Not oversensitive at all! It’s like getting a note that the principal needs to see you!

      One of the best tips I picked up from AAM was to always tell people why you are calling them into your office (or in your case a virtual meeting).

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I’ve been in education for over 20 years, but I still have never gotten over “the principal wants to see you” feeling.

        1. Callie*

          One year my principal put all teacher’s contracts for the next year in their boxes except the “specialists” (art, music, PE, dance). she said “come to my office to talk about your contracts” to us and of course that scared the life out of us. Turns out she only wanted to do that so we would have to come to her office and talk to her about some spring festival she wanted us to do. WTF. It was one of many things she did that always made me feel like I was about to be fired and it made me want to quit. But I was super stubborn and stuck around until after she retired.

    3. F.*

      This is not unusual when the company wants to announce something big and not have it be leaked or unduly speculated about. There may be absolutely no reason to panic, either. At any rate, being over-anxious prior to the meeting isn’t going to help in the long run. Best of luck, and I hope the meeting is to announce something great!

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Seems like there’s a lot of missing information here to jump to the conclusion that the CEO is intentionally being a jerk about this. Who saw the CEO laugh? Is it possible that in the already stressful situation of an unexpected meeting, they are misinterpreting something benign? Is it possible that the VP was supposed to communicate more information, and didn’t, but the CEO doesn’t know?

      There’s a possibility that your CEO’s a jerk, for sure, but not enough info right now to jump to that conclusion.

    5. fposte*

      Can’t say until after the meeting, and it’s mostly whether it makes sense to call people in or not.

      I know people get nervous about meetings, but it really isn’t her obligation to reassure those prone to knee-jerk anxieties–especially if there is reason to be anxious.

    6. FS*

      We have had a few of these meetings where I work. You come in to a meeting notice at 7:15am, private, all employees. Unfortunately, some of these were about layoffs. They haven’t actually included most work groups but they need the information presented at the same time, consistent message. It’s definitely intimidating, but for those meetings, it’s generally incredibly important to not let rumors fly around about sensitive work information. Good luck!

    7. hbc*

      I imagine if I had good news to share and couldn’t let a whiff of it leak, I’d do something like laugh. Not in a “Watch the peons panic” gleeful way, just a “Yeah, what are you gonna do?” kind of way. Or maybe if I had the order from the Board or Owner to not say anything, and I asked if I could at least tell them that it was good news, there would have been an “I knew it” laugh.

      I guess you’ll find out in 90 minutes or so whether it’s a jerky laugh or understandable.

    8. Ama*

      I don’t think she’s being a jerk if there really is no reason for people to worry — but she could be a little more sensitive to how people might interpret a last minute/no details meeting request.

      Our current CEO and her predecessor used to send out requests like that and it would turn out that they had arranged for snacks, sometimes just because and sometimes because we’d had several very good things happen that week and theywanted to celebrate them. But after we went through a couple of last minute/no details meetings that were not for fun (layoffs, the first CEO resigning unexpectedly), we started having “Happy Friday snacktime” meeting requests. I don’t know if the CEO figured it out on her own or if someone pointed out to her that the lack of detail was making everyone panic.

    9. BRR*

      It’s not the biggest jerk move in history but it’s kind of crappy. I think there are times when a meeting agenda can’t be shared but at the very least a “it’s nothing bad” or some sort of general statement would be nice.

    10. CM*

      I say yes, she’s being a jerk — meaning that she’s being really insensitive to all the people who are panicking that they’re about to lose their jobs. I agree that “don’t worry, it’s nothing bad” would go a long way. (And if she is firing everybody and laughs about it…)

    11. SophieChotek*

      I agree. it sounds rather insensitive but can hope it’s something good. (Although the last two times the CEO of the company suddenly called a meeting, it was to yell at everyone, and included a company-wide quiz.)

      keep us updated and fingers crossed it’s just Friday snacks or celebratory!

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I was told, learn to put up with it. I think from a practical standpoint, the advice is good. We have to be able to roll. Indeed, I found toughening up a little bit has only helped me through stuff like this.

      From a realistic standpoint, I think if the boss does this too many times, the boss discredits herself. People are concerned for their jobs and their workplace. to laugh at that or use that against people sends a message, “You are silly for worrying about your job and work place.” A wise boss, looks for unintentional messages and acts in a manner to reduce problems with covert messages.

      In your example, how hard is it to say, “I have good news, we will talk about it in detail”? Apparently, it’s incredibly difficult for this boss.

      However, my advice is that to survive working under this boss you could develop a “wait and see” attitude and encourage others along the same vein. I hope you chuckle: One thing I have told myself is that if the message was urgent or the message was directed at me, I would receive the message immediately and in stereo. In some cases my reasoning would continue on to point out, it can’t be that important if there is time to play head games with it. The latter part of this reasoning would kick in for me with a boss that routinely played “guess what we are going to talk about now”.

    13. Elsie*

      The first time I got one of these emails, it was to let us know that the company had been sold. Big news, but didn’t really affect us peons day-to-day.

      The second time, about a year later, it was to let my department know that all our jobs had been eliminated.

      So… who knows.

    14. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I had a CEO once who did that … usually to announce something bad (restructuring or someone being let go). I think it’s a jerk move totally – but it’s possible that it’s something she doesn’t want to announce beforehand.

    15. Florida*

      I had a CEO who used to have bait-and-switch meetings to give us bad company news. We had an ice cream social at the end of the day to celebrate a successful United Way workplace giving campaign. At the ice cream social/meeting, they announced that the company could no longer afford the janitorial service, so everyone would have to sign up to do a chore (clean the bathroom, vacuum the hall, etc.). I’m not joking. I didn’t stay around much longer (at the ice cream social or the company).

  7. Evy*

    Quick question on reference check with a snapshot of my work experience-
    Past work- 3 years as Role A. Enjoyed this work.
    Recent work- 2 years as Role B. Didn’t like the work.
    Currently I am out of job and looking for Role A again. For reference check I am giving people with whom I worked with in Role A. Is it going to be a red flag that I am not naming anyone from my recent company (role B) for reference check? If so, any advise on what I can do?
    P.S- I am not sure I will get good referrals for my work in Role B. My colleagues agreed to give me good referral but I dunno if they have changed their mind since.

    1. limenotapple*

      If I were the hiring manager, I would wonder why there was no one from your most recent position that you named as a reference, but I’d still be willing to talk to you if the rest of your resume fit my needs.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Keep in mind Alison’s observation (advice?) that potential employers can check any references they want. Not listing a reference doesn’t prevent people from checking with that person. Also, reasonable employers (not all are reasonable, but you don’t want to work for unreasonable ones if you’re already leaving a place you don’t want to be) will take with a grain of salt bad references from a current place of employment, especially if they can ask detailed questions of good references.

      Is there really no one (doesn’t have to be a supervisor) who can give you good reference from Role B?

      You can’t do co-worker from Role B who knows your work well but didn’t manage you and then manager from Role A?

    3. AFT123*

      Not necessarily, I would probably assume that you don’t want anyone from your current role to know that you’re looking. And a few years ago isn’t that long ago to make those references less valuable.

    4. Kyrielle*

      They’ll almost certainly want to speak to your most recent supervisor since you’re not still there; if you were, you could do the whole “my supervisor doesn’t know about my search”, but that’s not going to work in this case. I think it will cause concern, but I’m not sure how to manage that.

      I’d be tempted to list your last supervisor at role B but perhaps also explain that you don’t think role B was the right fit for you and you want to return to role A where you really excel and can contribute more. But I’m not sure if this is a good idea or not, just what I would probably try.

  8. Collie*

    We have an intern with three framed photos and a 2’6″(ish) model of a famous structure (think Big Ben) in her work area. One of the pictures is of her with a significant other, kissing. It’s all outward facing and visible from the walkway in front of her cubicle. We work in different departments and it doesn’t affect me at all, but I’m kind of curious how others would receive this. Is this standard or over the top?

      1. Collie*

        I think I’m just more conservative with my work space. I find the model to be a bit much, as is the “PDA.” But, like I said, it doesn’t really affect me — I walk by it once a day, but I’m not traumatized. Just curious about others’ thoughts. :)

        1. EA*

          I would classify it as a little eccentric/immature. Not a big deal, but I would notice. My coworkers have some engagement announcements at their desks, but they don’t place them in outward locations.

    3. Kelly L.*

      The framed pictures in and of themselves seem normal. Big Ben might be too big if it’s in the way or takes up too much of her space–it probably depends on how much space she has and whether she can still work normally and walk around freely, kwim? I used to have a sizable bust of Nefertiti in my office (she came with the office!), but she wasn’t in the way because she sat up in a tiny window that was of no other use.

      The kissing…I guess the context of the picture might matter, is my first instinct. Wedding pic? Not weird. Kissing in front of Big Ben? Probably also fine. Red Solo cup party? Perhaps not so much. It’s silly, but that’s my first thought–does the event look vaguely dignified?

      1. hermit crab*

        A bust of Nefertiti!!! The only thing that ever came with an office that I got was cookie crumbs in the desk drawers.

          1. Nanc*

            I am clutching my pearls upon your behalf and also thinking that if I found this and knew the culprit this is an absolute Gibbs Smackable offense of office etiquette!

          2. Heather*

            !!! I will admit that I do keep clippers in my desk (hardcore nailbiter who’s trying to switch to clipping & filing instead of chomping). But I don’t save the clippings in a drawer and I do make sure to clean up anything that falls off the clippers when I put them away!

        3. Ife*

          I got a bunch of Dilbert comics from one of those page-per-day calendars. I read through them, laughed, and recycled them. In hindsight, some of them were pretty accurate…

        4. Resident of Apartment 23*

          I’m on my third desk-side cabinet. I got my second one after the office remodeled, and it came with a can of Campbell’s condensed chicken noodle soup. Swapped it out for one that I could actually lock and inherited a half-empty bag of Dum-Dums.

        5. Kimberlee, Esq*

          I inherited a My Little Pony!

          And I also have a plush Zoombini on my desk. I hope that nobody thinks I’m immature!

          1. JaneB*

            I inherited an odd video tape about the city I was moving to and half a diary – literally, the pages for the part of the year that had gone were torn out, and the rest left.

            And the guy didn’t even leave the department, just moved offices (I was new to city, company and job).

      2. Karowen*

        These were basically my exact thoughts, but then I’m a tchotchke & picture person. I probably have more than the average amount of clutter for my workplace, but not by much.

    4. Collie*

      Yikes! I think I came off as more judgmental than I intended for this, based on responses. Sorry, y’all. It’s just something that strikes me as odd because I don’t see it elsewhere in this environment. I think it’s just a combination of the conservative environment and the way I like to keep my own space. I really don’t have an actual problem with this or anything.

      1. Cube Farmer*

        That is how I took the question: Just asking what is *normal* in other work spaces.

        In my previous work space, that would be tame. A coworker once had an inflatable three foot Sponge Bob (think the Christmas yard inflatable kind) in her cube.

        In my current work space, the display you describe would be considerably frowned upon and most likely a request would be made to remove it.

          1. StudentPilot*

            I’m making really big eyes right now. I want to work in your office so.bad.

            Also, I’m getting a new office in two weeks (as in being built right now) and now I know how ro decorate. (Just smaller)

          2. ExceptionToTheRule*

            I’m extremely jealous. I used to have a cardboard 6′ Mr. Potato Head that we liberated from Burger King, but his cardboard eventually wilted and died…

      2. Lillian McGee*

        I’m the only one in my office who has brought in artwork (not just family photos–actual art prints) and if anyone’s giving me the sideeye I haven’t noticed! They are pretty eccentric pieces but not inappropriate. I wish more people would put up art! But I haven’t inspired anyone yet…

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          I’ve been to a handful of those BYOB painting classes and brought most of those in to hang in my office along with a few pieces I’ve done on my own. Occasionally folks poke their heads in to see if there’s anything new. A number of folks have asked about putting together a group outing, but we haven’t gotten around to it yet.

        2. Anonymosity*

          I have nerd posters in my cube–the Starship Enterprise, a huge Gryffindor Quidditch banner, and the Star Wars 1977 A New Hope poster, the one with sexy Luke and Leia. That last one is in the corner of my cube where you can’t really see it that well if you walk by–we do have cube patrol once in a while to check for confidentiality issues. So far, no one has objected.

          I wanted to hang the complementary Batman and Joker prints I bought at a convention, but Joker is holding a rocket launcher and I didn’t think my company would let me have that.

          1. AnonEMoose*

            I have posters from “Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow,” and “Stardust.” I also have one of Optimus Prime from the first “Transformers” movie. I also have an action figure of Jareth (the Goblin King in “Labyrinth”) and a little Dancing Groot.

            But then, we almost never have outside people in where I work, and my coworkers are used to my nerdy ways.

      3. BenAdminGeek*

        It’s better than the former co-worker who had a digital slideshow that included pictures of his partner giving birth. And not neck up photos- all the goods were on display. He couldn’t understand why he was asked to take it down.

        All other photos are judged by those from now on.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Well, I’ll be the prude here and say that I think a kissing photo — especially arranged to face outward specifically so others see it — is odd and especially something I wouldn’t want to do as an intern.

      1. Christy*

        I’ll offer that basically everything in my cube faces outward unless I’m specifically trying to hide it by having it face away from my cube opening–and that always strikes me as odd. So maybe it’s a situation like that for this intern.

      2. Anne*

        I agree with this. Honestly I don’t much care for kissing photos being prominently displayed period, I have one from our engagement pictures on my nightstand and I think there’s one from our wedding displayed in our hallway at home. But at work, ehhh. I have a ton of pictures at work in my cube but they are mostly of my toddler, a couple of family pictures and one of our dogs.

      3. Ife*

        Yes, the kissing photo, even if it’s just a kiss on the cheek, or even if it’s a wedding photo, seems really weird to me. The Big Ben thing, probably depends on the office culture. We have a lot of strange displays at my office. There are flamingos on top of some cubes.

        1. Karowen*

          A kiss on the cheek doesn’t seem weird to me – or it wouldn’t if it were in a place where really only the intern would be able to see it.

    6. anonanonanon*

      In my last company, this was pretty standard. In my current company, only a few people have pictures of their partners or kids, and even then they’re printed pictures taped or clipped to the walls, not framed photos so something like this – especially facing outwards – would look weird. Mostly people just hang art if they want to decorate or don’t decorate at all.

      I think it depends on your office environment. If no one else does this then yeah, it’s going to stand out more. I have noticed in both my offices, though, that interns and some assistants do go above and beyond with decorating so maybe it’s just a matter of not knowing office norms and culture?

      1. De Minimis*

        We have one person where I work that has very elaborate decorations in their cube to where it looks like something from a teenager’s bedroom. I think it’s a bit unprofessional but we’re a nonprofit and our location tends to be a bit quirky.

        1. anonanonanon*

          There’s one person in my office who has probably three dozen of those Pop! Funko toys in their cube and it’s a little weird tbh. Nothing so offensive that I think they should put them away, but it’s definitely out of the ordinary for our office.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            At first I thought maybe you work at my company…but there isn’t just one person with that kind of stuff in their cube/office, so it’s not that weird here. :)

          2. Anonymosity*

            A few people here have bobbleheads and action figures–some sports, some nerd-themed. I went to the IT department once to ask someone a question and there was Star Wars stuff everywhere. I was all OMG I wanna sit here.

            Though it was kind of funny–I said hi to the person I had gone to see, and all these dudes popped their heads out of their cubes like prairie dogs. It was like, “There’s a girl in here!”

          3. Oryx*

            This makes me appreciate working at a place where these sorts of items are everywhere (I have three Pop! figures, one was a gift from a co-worker). But it’s definitely a culture thing here. At previous jobs those would have been very out of place.

            1. De Minimis*

              The person at my work has things like cutout pages from magazines on the wall….

              1. Oryx*

                Yeah I have a bunch of co-workers who have magazine cutouts in their cubes.

                Again, it’s very culture specific but these things aren’t out of place in our office.

          4. Fawnling*

            Oh gosh. I have a Pop! Funko, one 3″ Star Wars figure, and 3 ship models in my cube and now I’m feeling super self-conscious. Are people judged heavily on this stuff? I work in IT but the only people that see my desk are my co-workers.

            1. ThatGirl*

              I hope not! I have various photobooth pictures, a calendar with my dog’s pictures on it, a few WALL-E figurines and a couple stuffed animals…seems pretty normal for this company.

            2. ThursdaysGeek*

              I think us IT geeks are allowed to be a bit different.

              I have assorted Lego min-figs and other Lego toys; half a dozen plants; a 6′ tall ‘Dimensional Man’ poster* showing the circulatory, skeletal, and muscular system; books and magazines and photos and office supplies; various shaped Rubik’s puzzles, some modelling clay, rubber band balls, a dozen+ small plastic lizards… ok, there’s too much more to even bother listing them all.

              *I like the poem posted with my Dimensional Man, a poem I wrote decades ago and looks like a speech bubble from him:

              Doesn’t matter if your skin is black,
              Or white, or pale coffee.
              Inside your mind
              You’re still mankind.
              Underneath, you look like me.

            3. anonanonanon*

              The only reason I mentioned that specifically is because my coworker literally has about three dozen of them. A couple wouldn’t seem unusual, but enough to cover almost all the free space in the cube just seems like overkill.

              I know part of that is because I’m very minimalist when it comes to decorations so too much seems like clutter to me and makes me twitchy (but that’s my own issue), but it is very unusual for our company to have that many decorations and I know other people feel awkward about it too. It’s definitely a culture specific thing, so I wouldn’t worry about it too much if no one’s commented on it or it’s no unusual in your office.

    7. hbc*

      I don’t believe I’ve ever seen an outward-facing kissing pic in an office, and don’t really want to. I’m not the kind to go around gossiping or starting a campaign to bring it down, but my judgment of the person’s professionalism goes down a notch or two.

      Of course, I don’t believe there’s any photographic evidence of my husband and me kissing (unless you count the indirect evidence of my kids existing), so I might be unusual.

    8. Beezus*

      Arranging the photos to face outward is odd if that means she’s looking at the backs of the photo frames where she normally sits. If she can also see them, or they’re displayed along a back wall facing the whole room including her, that’s not so weird.

      The kissing photo is a little personal for a work photo, but I wouldn’t think a lot of it unless it’s super sloppy or her relationship seems to distract her at work.

      1. Collie*

        They’re on a desk that’s a few feet away from cubicle but still within the confines of her cubicle’s space. I’m not sure what direction her desk faces within the cubicle, but I don’t think she could be facing them based on the outside setup. It’s a really weird design. Like so: where the top is the wall and the bottom is the walkway, her work space is to the left with the opening on the right. Her items are on the wall side of the counter on the right, kitty-cornered (the X’s). I don’t know if her work space is on the left side of the left section or the bottom (walkway) side of the left section. Either way, I guess she can’t really be facing it.

        _____________ _____
        | | X |
        | | x |
        | | | |
        |_____________| |____|

        Man, that’s beautiful work right there. Definitely putting that on my resume. ;)

        2. Karowen*

          I think I get what you mean…and that makes it weirder! Pictures where you can look at them: totally normal. Picture of kissing where you can see it: Probably not work appropriate, but also not insanely bizarre. Pictures where you can’t see them at all: weird.

          1. Christy*

            Oh, like she has photos displayed on another surface of her cubicle area, but not where her actual desk/computer are. I have a few coworkers who have the space for that–just pictures of kids though. Personally I would leave the kissing photo by my computer, not on display like that, but I have a better sense of your objection now.

          2. Tea Pot Dome*

            My last boss had a photo of herself with a famous playwright, facing out so visitors who sat in front of her desk could see it. She routinely criticized the staff for the items they displayed at their desks, so the placement was a frequent inside joke. Fortunately, a reorg eliminated her position.

    9. Audiophile*

      My current job, feels like my first real professional job. Although, I did have another one briefly before this. At the previous one, a director had photo-booth pictures taped above their desk. Of course one or two in the set, were of them kissing their partner. It wasn’t something that would immediately draw your attention, so I didn’t think much of it. In my current job, most people have a framed picture or two of their partner (usually a wedding photo) and any other photos (kids, pets) are taped to the wall or door.
      If I were interning, I wouldn’t be putting up a kissing photo or making myself appear so “cozy”. The most I’ve put in my office is Poppin office supplies and even that I’ve sneaked in.

    10. General Commander*

      This seems like the best time to share the stuff a former 40-year-old coworker had on his desk.
      The first thing to know is that we worked shifts, so he shared his desk with someone else who would come in for second shift.

      The items pinned to his cube walls (and every inch of one half of the cube walls were COVERED) included:

      A framed “Nickelodeon” magazine featuring a 14-year-old Larissa Oleynik as Alex Mack.
      The sticker you peel off a new television that gives you the specs for the TV. (55″, LCD, etc)
      Several slipcovers for Criterion Collection DVDs.

      The rotating dioramas on his half of the desk included:

      Two photo albums of him as a child, and each day he would flip a page so we’d get to see the next photos in the series.
      Dragonball Z DVDs, along with several action figures.
      And the best ever — Miniature Barbie dolls from Happy Meals, along with one (just one) child-sized pink princess dress-up high heeled shoe.

      As you may have surmised, he was completely nuts.

    11. EddieSherbert*

      What field do you work in? I think that can make a difference as well.

      My partner isn’t allowed to have those kind of photos because he works in mental health care. He actually isn’t allowed to have any type of personal photos that are easily visible when someone walks into his shared office – and his desk faces away from the door (so if the photos face him, they face the door… if they don’t face him, they are against the wall/window). I ended up making him a 5×7 collage photo of about 10 pics that is “small enough” you can’t see anything specific from the door.

      On the other hand, I probably could but don’t like kissing photos :)

      1. Alma*

        When I was working for BigBank (before interstate banking, before anything but platform computers), our security training was to turn your name plate on your desk or station face down if anything happened. We were also told to limit family photos, have them facing us, not the rest of the room.

        One of the affiliate bank’s president had received a call at work from people who had identified his home, and were holding his wife and children at gunpoint. This was 4:00-ish, after the children had returned home from school.

        There was a ransom request, demands for transport, etc. It was really awful. All were safe in the end.

        With sick people carrying on with senseless acts of violence, I think back on that training, and see the wisdom in it. If you are not outside-customer facing, there’s a lot more leeway; it is one thing for someone to walk past your work space and say, “my son is a Sponge Bob fan, too.” It is another thing for an intern to have a 2′ plus photo that is as described. Newlyweds or partners may have a small 5″ x 8″ framed photo, but it is placed for their appreciation.

        It sounds to me like one of those office culture things the intern hasn’t become aware of yet.

  9. Camellia*

    It is thunder-stormy here so I am looking for the positive! Name something good that you got to do, or saw done, at work this week.

    Mine is that I sent an email to their respective managers detailing the fantastic job that three of my co-workers did on a project. I drafted it last week and opened it during yesterday’s acceptance meeting. As soon as the project was ‘accepted’ I sent the email. Thirty seconds later they popped up out of their cubes like a whack-a-mole game, waving and giving me thumbs up. I was so happy for them; they deserved it!

    1. Mallory Janis Ian*

      A career counselor at our college met with a student who needs a wheelchair due to a degenerative muscular disease. The student’s insurance was refusing to pay for the wheelchair, and the student didn’t know what to do. The career counselor asked for advice through our college “personals” listserv, and so many people offered the names of organizations that would assist. Within about four hours, the student had a lead on a used power wheelchair, and the college HR person compiled the list of resources onto our intranet in case it is ever needed again.

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Our personals listserv is usually used to alert people to the presence of leftover food or to give away unwanted ballgame tickets, but once in awhile I’ll see the faculty and staff really pull together to help someone. A few months ago, for example, someone wrote that they knew a 10th-grade boy who needed a pair of size-15 shoes and his mother couldn’t afford to buy him a pair. A professor in our department had just bought a pair of tennis shoes in that size that he was thinking of returning, but instead he gave them to the staff member for the boy who needed them.

    2. themmases*

      My boss asked me where I got my glasses (which I’ve had wayyyy too long but haven’t had time to replace, so great to hear someone thinks they look good), she liked the place I recommended her, and said she’d drop my name when she goes (awesome since I am going soon). Then I was able to find a really great coupon for her in my email! I love when recommendations work out like that.

      I am learning a new-to-me stats package (Stata) and really liking it so far. I can definitely see myself using it in the future, especially because I am learning to do some pretty advanced analyses with it that I don’t even know how to do in “my” software (SAS). Excited to be able to put it on my CV and be more flexible in the future.

    3. Prismatic Professional*

      I have two!
      1. A client asked for my supervisor’s contact information to sing my praises! I can’t tell you how excited that made me, the rest of the week has been extremely difficult clients.

      2. A different client complimented me on my poise and graciousness when dealing with conflicting directives relevant to making an eligibility determination. She appreciated my transparency and open communication. :-D

    4. Headachey*

      I worked from home for the first time! My manager has been encouraging me to try this for a while so that it’s an established option should I want to do it more often/regularly – not sure why I waited so long to try it out :)

    5. Audiophile*

      I was included on a long chain of emails, in one email my manager’s boss gave credit to my manager for catching a mistake. In actuality, I caught it. My manager chimed in on the email and gave me credit for catching it. I was impressed, because I’ve worked under a few managers who would have let it go or taken the credit.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      1) My boss interacting with the people. She is very good at explaining complex things so the average person can follow along without feeling insulted. I’m proud of her.
      2)Boss said, “Oh don’t worry about x. We won’t need it and it can wait.” My intuition went in to overload and I did x anyway. Sure enough. We needed it. And it was done. Dang. This does not happen all the time, so it’s tough not to throw our fists in the air in victory, albeit, a minor victory.

    7. Ama*

      I found out my very first solo grant application (for corporate sponsorship of a grant my org gives out) got funded! It’s exciting for my org because it is a new corporate sponsor at a time when one of our older corporate sponsors looks to be scaling back. It’s exciting for me both because I’ve been expressing interest in getting grant writing experience for years (over two jobs) and this is the first time I’ve been allowed to do more than just proof and provide background data, and because I have at least one grant funded before we even start the next grant cycle.

      1. Camellia*

        Thanks, I appreciate it!

        It’s great reading the responses; a nice ending to a difficult week.

    9. Nye*

      2 things:

      Did a pilot run of a fiddly 2.5-day lab procedure that uses a lot of expensive reagents, and I’m cautiously optimistic that it’s working. It’s my first time doing it in a new lab and with very small and precious samples I spent the last year collecting, so this is a big relief.

      Finally sent a manuscript of my 4th dissertation chapter to my advisor! It’s taken over a year to get the time and energy together (I’m on a new project now), so has been weighing heavily on my mind. Hoping I can get it submitted to a journal soon.

  10. Anon for this*

    My husband wants to take a leave of absence of 1-2 months to deal with mental health/addiction. He has the vacation time available, but he is fairly high-ranking at work and he has several long-term projects he’s heading up. Any advice from managers how you would like your employees to broach this with you? I think they will be supportive, but my husband is anxious about it (for obvious reasons.)

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I haven’t taken time off due to mental health issues, but I’ve had to “come out” to managers before (and negotiated projects off my plate). I think his best bet is to treat it super straightforwardly, as he would with any other health issue. Imagine the conversation if he were telling his boss that he was going to be out for a month because he’s finally having that back surgery he’s been putting off. “Tenzin, I wanted to give you a heads up about something that’s come up for me. I’ve been struggling with my back/an addiction for some time, and I’ve decided that I need to be proactive in tackling this. The treatment plan I’ve decided upon with my doctors involves surgery/in-patient rehab, and it means I will need to be out of the office for eight weeks. I appreciate your support, and here are my proposals for how we handle my workload while I’m out.”

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Err, I should say “come out” with mental health issues – not coming out of the closet (which is obviously none of my employers’ business).

        1. BenAdminGeek*

          That did confuse me at first! I imagined it as “Tenzin, I’ve put off back surgery for too long. Also, I’m gay. Anywho, I’ll be out 8 weeks for the surgery, here’s the plan.”

    2. LCL*

      Boss, I am having a serious health crisis. I must take 1-2 months of medical leave for treatment, per physicians recommendation. Or I will continue to get sicker.
      He doesn’t have to tell anyone the nature of his illness.

      And good on him for seeking treatment before everything falls apart.

      1. fposte*

        And, presuming it’s applicable, “This is an FMLA-covered absence, so what paperwork do you need for that?”

        1. Anon for this*

          FMLA applies, definitely. He’s been struggling with how to word it, and the suggestions here are great. His immediate boss is not very discreet so he wants to be as vague as possible. Thank you everyone!

          1. Engineer Girl*

            FMLA applies, but hubby needs to make sure he doesn’t qualify as a “key employee”. FMLA rules are different for key employees VS regular ones.

      2. A.S.*

        I would second this–unfortunately, addiction still has a stigma in our society and I worry about the unintended biases your husband’s boss might bring into the interaction. The phrasing I would go with is something like: “Boss, I’ve been dealing with some health issues lately and unfortunately things haven’t been improving. I met with my doctor and she has told me I need to take 1-2 months of medical leave for some more extensive treatment. I do expect to be back to full health afterwards and return ready to continue where I left off. In the mean time, I want to make sure everything is lined up so that my work will be taken care of while I’m out on leave. I can get started on creating a workplan” etc. I would also do this either during a weekly check-in or just put 15 minutes on your boss’s calendar so you can do it behind a closed door.

      3. Busytrap*

        I like this approach. Unless my coworkers really want to tell me, I wouldn’t want/need to know about the specific medical issue, just that it was serious enough to trigger FMLA and that they were going to need some time off (and then I’d offer support, ask if there was anything I could do, and remind them of our confidential EAP).

    3. BRR*

      As fposte mentions, FMLA might be applicable. I think he needs to just say he’s going to need X time to take care of a health issue and frame it as working out logistics. Just because he has the time doesn’t mean he can just request it off. But think of it in the same way if he left for another job or got hit my a bus, there are situations where they will need to figure out how to complete projects without him.

  11. Cass*

    I’ve been asked to help out on a TV shoot at my workplace tomorrow. (I’m in radio, but background in TV and looking to transition to the TV side at my workplace so I’m pumped to have the opportunity.) It will be a 15 hour day and in general I usually dress business casual for work. However, in the past when I’ve done long TV shoot days, I know from experience things are a little more casual (jeans, maybe sneakers.)

    Is there a wording someone can help me with to ask the executive producer what kind of dress code she expects? I’m concerned with the shoes I’d pick, since I don’t really have a business casual style shoe that would also be comfortable for 15 hours. I mean it more as “hey, what are your expectations of the dress code because I’d like to be prepared” but anything I come up with sounds like “Hey, I can’t dress myself so please help.” Any input someone could give would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Dot Warner*

      I think the wording you used here: “hey, what are your expectations of the dress code because I’d like to be prepared”would be fine. Since you’re concerned about shoes, also ask if it’ll be outdoor or indoor – IDK where you are but a lot of places are hella muddy at this time of year, and you wouldn’t want to get your nicest shoes all muddy.

      1. Cass*

        I’m fairly certain it will be inside, thank goodness. And you may have a point, I think my mental block from this is coming from being low on the totem pole and having imposter syndrome. (I just don’t want to come across as unsavvy or bumbling in a way if that makes sense.)

        1. BenAdminGeek*

          Don’t worry at all- I continue to obsess over dress code for these sort of events. In my experience, no one cares that you asked, except if they’re happy you asked.

    2. overeducated and underemployed*

      If the issue is mainly shoes, can you just wear a business casual pair and pack a more comfortable pair to switch into, either right away if everyone is casual, or later when your feet need a break?

      1. Beezus*

        Yeah! My job mostly involves sitting, but I had a streak where I’d have an unexpected running-around day anytime I wore heels, so I started keeping a pair of basic black flats handy to switch to. Blisters suck.

    3. fposte*

      I think you’re overthinking :-). It’s a perfectly reasonable question, and most ways you phrase it would be fine. “Can you tell me how the assistants usually dress for a day like that?” is one among many options.

      1. Cass*

        Ah, yes. Something like “Can you tell me how the production assistants usually dress for a day like tomorrow? I usually dress business casual, just wondering if that is in line with the norms for you guys.” (I think this way if she says something like yes business casual is fine, then I will suck it up and wear nicer shoes, but not heels. I guess I didn’t want to come across as asking for permission to slum it up with jeans and sneakers.)

    4. Heather*

      I think you could do it just the way you did here – ask what the dress code will be and if she doesn’t give you all the info you need in response, just explain that at the past shoots you’ve been on people wore jeans and sneakers and ask if it will be the same tomorrow. If she takes that as “I can’t dress myself,” she’s an ass ;)

      Good luck, I hope it helps you move into the TV side!

      1. Heather*

        Haha – this is why I don’t post that often; it takes me so damn long to write out my thoughts that by the time I hit submit 3 other people have already said the same thing! Oh, the joys of being a copyeditor with ADHD….

    5. evilintraining*

      I like low boots for that kind of thing. They’re usually comfy but still look nice.

      1. em2mb*

        I was just about to suggest a low bootie for this kind of thing. I’m a reporter – when I get dressed for the day, I’d like to think I’ll be home by 5:30, but that can change without warning. So comfortable shoes are a must. Steve Madden makes a lot of very comfortable booties with low heels (about an inch) that hold up well. I’ve also had good luck with a brand called Diba.

    6. Kim*

      I’m an EP working in television and would absolutely welcome the question as you state it here. (I’ve had PAs show up in the most inappropriate clothing possible). In our shop we have logo shirts that we require for everyone on a crew but other places have different requirements. Also, conditions in the field play a role in what to wear. It’s always a good idea to ask if you’re new to the role. Shoes are crucial though. You have to have comfortable feet for a 15 hour day. If you can’t buy business casual shoes with good support, get out your nicest sneakers or athletic shoes and give them a good clean and some shoe polish so they look as nice as possible.

      1. Cass*

        Whew, glad to hear this from you and ElCee. I think I’ll ask, but plan to wear something business casual and feel OK pairing with sneakers. Nothing makes a long day more exhausting like foot pain….

    7. ElCee*

      It’s no problem to ask! My partner works in TV and if it’s something fancier (jeans/boots or sneakers is the norm for most technicians/PAs), he just double checks. Totally normal question.

      1. Cass*

        Thanks to everyone for their input! I emailed the executive producer asking, and she reassured me comfort was key so jeans, sneakers and a nice sweater would be fine.

        And the day turned out AWESOME! (16 hours of hard work, but enjoyable!) I was doing the functions of more a PA role (production assistant) and I was really rocking it so the Exeuctive producer asked if I wanted to step up my role for parts of the day to produce some of the interviews. All in all, got some great Face time with several producers at my station and I’m fairly confident, secured some great recommendations for any future video producer jobs that may open up.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure about now, but it used to be that certain patterns bled on screen in a very distracting manner. I believe herringbone was one example. I am not sure if this applies any more. My inclination would be to wear solid colors if I knew I was going to be videoed for tv.

      2. fposte*

        And I now have Sue Ann Nivens in my head saying piteously, “Strobing and bleeding!”

  12. Anon for this*

    Those of you who’ve had Bad Job PTSD, how have you dealt with it? Last summer, I took a job that was a lousy fit; I knew it would be but was in a bad situation and so desperate to escape I refused to consider that I’d be getting myself into a worse one. That was a dumb thing to do, and the consequence of that dumb thing is that I lasted all of a month at the bad job. The good news is that a few months ago I got a new job where I can actually be successful, but the bad news is that all the crap from Bad!Job keeps haunting me at New!Job. When I make a mistake, I can hear my trainer from Bad!Job telling me that I “can’t even do Task X, which is something interns can do” or that they “can’t work with someone who trembles and cries” and I start worrying that this is going to end badly just like my last job did and I’m in the wrong profession, etc.

    I need to get past this or I’m hosed. Any thoughts?

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you, but I’m looking more for ways to deal with the anxiety aspect of things and while that post was useful, I didn’t feel like it addressed my specific situation. Thank you for taking the time to respond, though.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Definitely keep reading AAM. It will help you to see other people going through stuff and how they are doing with it. And it will help you learn new skills and learn new ways of looking at old things.

          Anxiety can come from many root sources. So a good thing to do is to reassure you that YOU will help YOU. Start there. use affirmations.

          Next.Knowledge is power, anxiety is the absence of power. So what kind of knowledge would you like to grow? how about reading up on how to deal with difficult people. Gather some tools and put them in a tool box that you carry in your mind. All of us can always learn more on this topic, so dig in.

          Next, realize that your body has been taxed, depleted of vitamins and minerals. How about a protein drink or some electrolytes? Get something into your body to help your body support your brain. Realize that your brain might be physically exhausted as well as drained thought-wise.

          Lastly, realize that this going to take time. BUT. As the weeks and months roll by you will have good moments and even good days. If you knew for a fact right now is the worst it will ever be, does that change the picture at all? Live as if you know for a fact this is not going to keep getting worse. You will keep trying various tools and you will hit on things that actually help you.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      From someone who still struggles occasionally… *hugz*

      I thinkt eh biggest thing that’s helped me so far is just experience and being here for a good while.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Honestly, sounds like some therapy could be useful. Or at least a trusted friend you can talk it through with. For me, honestly, it would be my mom — I could cry it out with her and she would reassure me that the problem was Bad!Job, not me.

      Good luck. You can do it!

      1. Anon for this*

        Honestly, that had occurred to me too, but then I was like, “Ugh, no, it was just a stupid job, what kind of whiner goes to therapy over that?” But since I just moved to a new state and don’t know many people here yet, maybe that is the answer…

        1. BRR*

          I started therapy when I was struggling with my last job and my manager was less than perfect at time. I was fired and four months into my new job and I’m doing great but I can’t shake it. Time has been what has helped the most. When I get particularly anxious, I make sure to get out at lunch if I can. I just walk a little or get a quick chair massage. The physical distance between myself and my office helps me calm down.

        2. Lily Rowan*

          I feel like you can go to therapy for any reason without being a whiner! (And should take my own advice…)

        3. Lady H*

          It may seem like it’s just about the job, but speaking from experience, once you go to therapy to talk about bad job PTSD, you can make connections to all areas of your life to clear the way for smooth sailing in the future. Therapy isn’t just for people who have had Awful Things happen to them! It’s a really smart, proactive way to deal with things and move past them. It gives you coping skills and makes you a better employee/friend/partner. Look at it like going to a professional conference or taking a business course. You wouldn’t think that you were a whiner for needing to develop business skills, and it’s the same thing with what you learn in therapy—we’re not born knowing this stuff!

          Maybe your old job was so bad because you weren’t able to set boundaries, or when you did, people disregarded them, so you’re panicking in your new job because you still don’t feel comfortable setting and enforcing them. (This is just an example that was true for ME, not trying to project on you!) Or maybe you’re unaware of why a bad management style really rubs you the wrong way even after you’ve left that job—it could be related to another person(s) who made you feel the way your manager did. My therapist has taught me that the way to process trauma* is to follow the feelings even if you’ve forgotten the action that caused them.

          *Trauma really is anything that’s impacted your life in a negative way. It doesn’t have to be big to anyone else, just to you! Honestly, once you start therapy you’ll be like me and try to talk everyone into going because it’s massively helpful. It’s impacting you to the point where you’re seeking out advice from internet strangers, why not trust a trained professional? :) (Not saying that posting this question won’t be helpful for you, internet strangers can be wise—especially here!)

        4. Anon for this*

          I went to therapy over my job. It was getting to the point where I was miserable and anxious and that was making me unproductive, which made me more miserable and anxious and unproductive. A year later, and I’m in a much better place (mentally – still at the same job but happy and productive again).

          1. TootsNYC*

            Your job is such a huge part of your day! I don’t think there’s any shame in getting some help to deal with the affect it has on your mental and emotional health.

    4. LizB*

      Call your EAP. Seriously. Get a few sessions with a counselor that specializes in trauma and/or anxiety, describe your problem, and ask for some tools and coping strategies you can use during the workday.

      I’m currently in therapy for several reasons, but the thing that actually made me get off my butt and find a therapist was a terrible, terrible job that’s left me with a lot of anxiety and occasional flashbacks. I’ve only done a few sessions, but I’ve already learned some interesting coping strategies that have been working really well to calm me down. One that I like is the idea of a “container” — my therapist had me visualize some kind of container, being very specific about what it physically looked like, its size, its shape, its color, etc., and had me mentally place it in her office. Whenever I have some anxiety come up that I need to put aside, I close my eyes, imagine my container, and imagine myself putting the memory/anxiety into the container and closing the lid. It sounds incredibly cheesy, and I was definitely skeptical, but it’s actually been working really well!

      For crying: yawn and/or drink water. It’s really hard to cry when you’re yawning or swallowing.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you so much! This is great advice. I’m not sure if my current employer has an EAP but I’ll definitely try to find out.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I agree with the concept LizB is bringing up which is that there are many, many useful mental strategies that are available for you.

        I found cognitiive behavioral therapy to be really usefl. It’s a skill, actually!

        Crying: I’ve heard, “look up.” When your eyeballs roll upward, it’s hard to cry.

    5. A sex addict*

      If the above recommendations from Alison don’t help, you may need to seek professional help. I had to do it because a previous boss triggered some deep rooted and highly involved PTSD from my past. If you can find someone who specializes in Trauma therapy that would be best. Hopefully you won’t have to seek professional help.

    6. anon968*

      Try some CBT type techniques for yourself. Try and pick out the thoughts/behaviors you want to change and then when you notice them happening work on challenging them. It will probably take some time to develop new habits and so on.

      I’m in a similar situation. It took me 6-9 months to stop being utterly terrified of conversations with my manager (as at my last place any conversation would end with abuse screamed in my face). I still have hang ups though, e.g. I’ve just had some time off sick and I’m unbelievably panicked about getting in trouble (you simply weren’t allowed to be ill in my last job). I’m getting there slowly though.

    7. EddieSherbert*

      Hey Anon:

      I feel you and I’m sorry you’re struggling!

      I definitely think you need some time to adjust and get used to things at New Job. I moved from super micro-managing Old Job to “you’re an adult and can handle your own schedule” New Job several months ago and I STILL occasionally find myself asking my manager’s “permission” for things (like… a slightly long lunch).

      Don’t beat yourself up when you have those “flashback moments.” And if you have a bad moment where your “trembles and cries” comment comes into to play – and that’s how you feel – seriously, just give yourself a moment to recalibrate. Walk to the bathroom. Do a lap around the building. Whatever. Give yourself that moment and don’t worry.

      And you didn’t ask about this, but you mentioned moving to a new state in the comments. I also moved away from my friends/family. Get involved. Seriously. Find a bowling league, volunteer, join a knitting club or a gym, something. It’s going to feel SO awkward the first time or two, but it makes a huge difference.

      I started volunteering at a local animal shelter and started doing yoga. I’d never done yoga before, wasn’t really interested in it, but it helped me meet people and gave me something TO DO. If I was sitting at home getting worked up, I could get my butt out the door and distract myself at the animal shelter. And I met people there too.

      Best of luck!

    8. NicoleK*

      You’re not alone. I left toxic job two months ago and still haven’t dealt with it all.

      1. JaneB*

        Also, small things that help with realising you aren’t THERE any more – I’ve found actively collecting evidence that I’m competent and that my environments are sane useful – a mix of an email folder for any email from coworkers or clients that says thanks or that what I did was what they needed and a paper notebook or word document in which to jot a note every time someone says something positive or does something sane and helpful. As a naturally anxious person with bad imposter syndrome even before I encountered Toxic Situation, I found the act of actively looking for the positivein order to record it very helpful in recalibrating my thinking once I was out of the Toxic Situation. It’s easy and natural to be looking for signs that things are going wrong again, or that you’re in trouble, and if you’re looking for them you’re more likely to find them. By looking for good things, you start to retrain your brain a bit, in my experiecne.

  13. Jubilance*

    I emailed this to Alison but I don’t think it’s going to run, so I’m throwing this out to the group.

    My question is about listing a Six Sigma certification on my resume. For context, typically Green/Black Belt certifications are done on a company by company basis, though there are organizations like ASQ that also offer the certification. It’s not like a PMP where there is 1 certifying organization. I have worked in process improvement since 2010. At the time, I worked at Company A, which is known for implementing Six Sigma throughout their company. I learned Six Sigma/DMAIC methodology through completing several different Six Sigma projects; due to funding issues my company was unable to send me to a class right away. I wound up leaving that company and that role before I could go through training, but I did complete 3 projects during my time there. I’ve been at Company B since 2012, and I completed Company B’s Six Sigma training and passed their Black Belt exam. However, the company has gone through a major restructure and they have scrapped their Six Sigma program – both curriculum and roles. I’ve used DMAIC methodology in subsequent projects, but there’s no one to go to “sign off” that I’ve met all the requirements as a Black Belt.

    I feel stuck – I completed the required number of projects at Company A but did my “official” training at Company B. I don’t have a piece of paper that says I’m a Black Belt, but I have lots of experience in this area. I’m looking for a new role and there are roles that I’d like to apply to, but most of them require a Black Belt. Should I say that I have it and hope they don’t ask for that piece of paper? In the interviews I’ve had, I’ve explained my situation with training & projects between two different companies, but I don’t have that opportunity if I’m answering a yes/no question on an application. Should I just suck it up and pay for a certification from an organization like ASQ?

    1. Liza*

      I’d be leery of saying you have it when you don’t, but if you’re faced with a yes/no checkbox on an application system… can you explain the situation in a cover letter? If you can, I think you could check “yes” in the application system because anyone who looks at your application and reads the cover letter will know the whole story. Would that fit your needs?

    2. MT*

      I wouldnt waste the money. Every company I’ve ever been with that cared about having green or black belt when hiring will usually require you to go their program.

      1. MT*

        I have my certifications from GE,a well known company for their black belt program, but have worked at 2 separate companies that still required me to complete their black belt program.

      2. Jubilance*

        Curious – when you apply for a job that requires a Black Belt certification, they send you to training all over again? Do they ever ask for proof of your original certification or do you start with a clean slate?

    3. AmyNYC*

      Not to make a joke of this, but I didn’t realize SixSigma was real – I thought it was a fake buzzword-y thing made up for Jack Donaghy on 30 Rock. (Like, synergy, but now I’m at a big corporate company and SYNERGY is real!)

      1. pugsnbourbon*

        Me too! When my husband started the work for it I was seriously amused that it’s a real thing.

      2. Tea Pot Dome*

        I had a dream about it once and in the dream it was called Six Dogma and involved chanting and wearing blue shirts.

    4. Engineer Girl*

      You could mention training without the certification. You could also mention it in your cover letter. On a yes/no box, I’d be inclined to answer “no” unless there was an additional box for clarification.

    5. TootsNYC*

      Can you list “Six Sigma training” instead of “Six Sigma certification”?
      And maybe “completed Black Belt–level classes”?

      1. the gold digger*

        And re-reading and realizing that is not what you were proposing at all, which I should have known because there is nothing you have ever posted that indicates you would lie!

        My comment was based more on my insider knowledge of how ASQ works. :)

        I apologize for even implying you would lie!

  14. Anoning it up*

    Revisiting salary — I recently joined a large organization, and people at my organization and in my role are generally paid according to a salary scale that is published internally. I received my job offer and agreed to a salary some time ago, before the salary schedule was set for this year and with the understanding that I would receive my 2016 salary even though I was starting in 2015, and shouldn’t expect a raise when they are announced. This year’s salary schedule was recently published, and when it was I found out that I am below the minimum of the range for my position – apparently the raises were higher than they expected when I was made an offer.

    I can’t figure out if I should ask anyone about this. I am not unhappy with my compensation, but this is the kind of thing that can compound over time. I’ve asked a few friends/collegues and gotten differing advice. I don’t want to look like I’m asking for money so soon into a new job, but I also don’t want to get caught being paid low on the salary range for the rest of my career because of what seems like bad timing with my start date and offer. What do you think I should do? Is this possible to revisit given the circumstances?

    1. fposte*

      If I’m understanding correctly, I think this is the rare situation where this is revisitable. Go to your manager and say that the plan when you were hired in late 2015 was that it would be at a 2016 salary, and it looks like the estimates for the raises in 2016 were low–would it be possible to adjust so that you are indeed getting a 2016 salary for your position?

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Revisit it in a year when you have a good track record. Right now you don’t have the personal capital to take a stance. And the company may surprise you and bump you anyway…

      1. Anoning it up*

        They didnt bump me anyway – I actually submitted this to Alison about a month ago but it wasnt answered so I thought I’d toss it out to y’all. It was getting to the point where if I wait much longer and then decide to ask it will be weird that I waited so long. Asking now and bringing it up at my review are the two conflicting bits of advice I cant decide between!

        1. fposte*

          I’d say it depends on your management, your company, and your feelings. And also the specifics of the conversation about your hiring salary.

          You don’t have to answer but I’m curious–how much difference are we talking about, percentage-wise maybe? (I utterly agree it compounds and matters if only for that–I’m just curious if this is egregious enough that I’d say talk to the manager now.)

          1. Anoning it up*

            Haha its ok. It is about a 3% difference in salary from where I am to the bottom of the range, 6% from where I am to the top of the range. Part of my concern is actuallyhow close I am to the salary for the position below me – my actual salary is basically the midpoint between one rung down and my proper rung. Either way though I am happy with my salary as a number, I just dont want to be undervalued my whole career.

            1. fposte*

              I’m a poor academic in a state where we’re lucky to get a 1% raise, so 3% would be a lot to me, especially if it continues that way. What about a compromise? “Manager, I noticed that the eventual 2016 raises put me 3% below the band we were slotting me into–is that something we could correct with raises for 2017 or should we talk about it now?”

        2. Master Bean Counter*

          Ah, well. It’s one of those things that you really have to know your people. if you’ve been great since you started and they are reasonable people, then it might be worth a shot.

    3. Zahra*

      I’d be matter of fact about it: “Hey, I saw the new pay scales and that I’m below the minimum. What can we do so my salary is at least at the minimum for the position?”

      As a last ditch, I’d accept no raise this year, but a merit raise next year, to be calculated from the minimum of the scale at that moment. So, if your performance warrants a 5% increase, your current salary is 48k, the minimum of the scale when you get the raise is 50k, you should get 52.5k.

    4. HigherEdQueen*

      I had the exact same situation happen to me at a state job. I was hired at the minimum (which was already a damn good salary) of the salary range. Their policy was that no one could be below the minimum. So two months after I started, I received an $8000 raise! I would advise consulting with your HR department to see what their policy is.

    5. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      You should definitely bring it up and not wait for next year. At OldJob they adjusted the minimum of the salary band just after I was hired (not that I knew this happened) and I was not bumped up.

      Instead, during the yearly merit review, I was given my merit raise first and then the bump to minimum. That really irritated me since it meant I was getting paid the same as someone who just started at the company, and in some cases I was getting paid less than people who had been their a few months less than me.

      So yeah, ask now.

  15. AndersonDarling*

    My husband was “let go” today. I commented a few months ago that he got the job offer after almost a year of unemployment but I couldn’t be excited about it. Well, it was an awful job, terrible, horrible, unbelievably bad job. I must have been feeling the bad vibes. He was desperately looking for something else since he started, so this is kind of a good thing. But it still feels crappy.
    But the job he applied to 8 months ago is still interested. He had a third interview with them 2 weeks ago. But at this pace, it will be 2017 before he is offered something.

    1. JMegan*

      Aw, that sucks. If there’s anything worse than being let go, it’s being let go from a job that you didn’t even like! Hopefully he’ll find something better soon.

  16. Lily Evans*

    I just resigned from a job for the first time ever and I was so nervous but my supervisor took it really well! She was really excited about the new position I took and we started planning the next couple weeks and I’m just so relieved.

    1. AFT123*

      Good for you! That is a really tough conversation to have, even for people who have been in the workforce for a long time and have had the conversation before. You should be proud of yourself. Congrats!

    2. Merry and Bright*

      I’m glad the resignation part went so well. I remember how I felt and it is a big thing. Your supervisor sounds really nice.

      Well done on the new job and good luck!

    3. Florida*

      Congrats on the new job! I think the thought of having the resignation conversation is usually much worse than the actual conversation. Glad it went well.

    5. Snazzy Hat*

      When I handed in my retail job resignation to my favourite manager, she was disappointed but understanding. About a half-hour later, we met up again in my department (I may have been coming back from break) and she jokingly said, “I talked it over with [the other people in this department] and we decided to tear up your resignation letter and not let you leave.”

      It honestly was light-hearted. All of us in the department made it a habit of keeping each other’s spirits up on a regular basis. (I visited a couple of days ago and it’s still like that.) On my last day two weeks later, one of my coworkers brought in brownies as a “thanks for the memories” gift.

  17. Ms. Didymus*

    I am looking to return to my hometown (in addition to being really uncomfortable with some recent maneuverings within my current company) and as such have begun job hunting. I did two phone screens yesterday. One was with a large, established company in a position created through growth.

    The other is in a small (less than 10 people) company looking for someone to oversee multiple aspects in a company that is part of a fringe market that is often seen as scammy and shady.

    The pay and title are roughly the same at both. Benefits are pretty comparable. I know the stable one makes more sense for what I need in life but…I weirdly feel bad for deciding to decline an interview with the smaller company. The recruiter mentioned they’ve had a really hard time filling this role and how I seemed like such a great match and how he was excited to bring in the CEO for the next step, etc etc.

    Obviously I know I have no obligation to continue (and really, since I know I wouldn’t take the job I have an obligation to bow out) but is it weird to feel bad?

    1. F.*

      Sounds like they were applying some subtle guilt pressure on you to interview. Remember, the process is two-way. If they had a bad vibe about you, they would end the process. You have every right to tell them that you have decided not to proceed further with them and to not feel guilty about it.

    2. rek*

      No, it’s human to feel bad, especially if they were really enthusiastic in your phone screen. I think it falls somewhat close to that “kicking a puppy” feeling. A couple of things to keep in mind: (1) They’re in a field you indicate is at least on the border of shady and (2) you have no way of knowing if this “you’re the best” spiel is one they roll out whenever they get an promising application.(Kinda fits the shady / scammy profile.)
      In any case, be glad you have other options, and listen to that internal voice that is urging you away from a red-flag situation. Best of luck on your search and upcoming move!

      1. Ms. Didymus*

        Thanks rek! I am actually really grateful that, while I’m not incredibly senior, I have enough experience and a strong enough candidacy that I am comfortable saying a job isn’t a good fit for me. It wasn’t too long ago that I would have felt if I didn’t take X job, no other job would offer so I had to take it or be unemployed. It is better to be on this side.

    3. NJ Anon*

      Is it weird? I don’t know but you have to do what is best for you. And of course the recruiter said it was a great match, they probably get paid based on hirings.

      1. Ms. Didymus*

        That is the weird thing. He wasn’t even a “recruiter” He was their marketing manager…who just happens to recruit because they are so small.

    4. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I know this isn’t what you asked but are you sure you want to “bow out” of the smaller company? I have worked for big companies and I have worked for small companies (I was person #7). The smaller company had been in business for over 15 years and had an excellent reputation in the field. I so much more enjoyed working for the smaller company. There was no bureaucracy, it was a true *team* effort, and it was more of a family atmosphere. There was no office politics or clicks. You may want to reconsider the smaller company but of course, do what is best for you.

      1. I'm a Little Teapot*

        My experience has been the exact opposite – that very small companies are horrendously dysfunctional, with no higher authority to keep an abusive or incompetent owner in check. And since Ms. Didymus said what they did was “shady,” I bet it goes double.

      2. Shortie*

        I’ve had a similar experience. While small businesses can be terribly dysfunctional (and the one I worked for certainly was), at least they do not have all the bureaucracy, reporting, and work-very-hard-but-accomplish-little type tasks that larger businesses necessarily have to have to control costs and track results. I am really missing working for a dysfunctional small business right now.

        That said, Didymus mentioned that the small business is part of a fringe market that is often seen as scammy and shady, so that makes a big difference and departs from my experience. I probably wouldn’t consider that either.

        My response here is totally unhelpful, but I just wanted to chime in since I’ve been thinking a lot of late about the general topic of large business versus small.

      3. Ms. Didymus*

        I appreciate the advise and I’ve worked for small companies and loved it. That said, I really need stability and security in my career right now. Certainly no job is a guarantee but smaller, newer companies in a fringe market are less stable larger corporations in stable industries (particularly well rated employers).

  18. BRR*

    I’m looking for some working at home tips. I’ve gone through the archives but am hoping some readers have some additional advice. I recently started working from home two days a week and am having a hard time getting my work done.

    I have a dedicated work space with a large desk. I don’t have anybody at home bothering me. I don’t mind being isolated (and it’s a welcome break as I work in an open office environment with low cubicle walls) but it can be too quiet and I find myself spending too much time figuring out what to play for background noise. My laptop is small and I think that’s part of the challenge. My employer will not pay for any additional equipment. I really just don’t feel as motivated at home. If I didn’t have a super long commute I would consider not working from home but it’s really not an option as it was so exhausting I would burn out. Plus I do enjoy getting to work away from a couple of chatty coworkers. Thoughts?

    1. Erin*

      I like to play lyric-less music in the background so there’s something going on. Create a Pandora station from the French band “Air” or try Google Music’s “Focusing” station.

      Also, allow yourself to take quick 10 minute breaks – take a quick walk around the block, or even a quick yoga video or something, to break up the monotony and get those juices flowing again.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        Seconding Air, although my personal “concentrate” music stations on Pandora are focused on: 1) the bands Agalloch, Alcest, & Opeth when I need background music to take my mind off the passage of time; oh hey, that song was fifteen minutes long, so it’s now fifteen minutes later than when it started, or 2) K-Pop groups Girls Generation/SNSD, f(x), Orange Caramel, and T-Ara when I need to stay awake. I also listen to this one when I’m doing laundry or cleaning.

        And then there are the soundtracks for the Katamari games and the Project Diva games.

      2. zora*

        My other alternative to lyric-less music, is music sung in a language I don’t speak, so I still can’t get distracted. There are a lot of world music stations out there, African music, Bossanova is great, and French music stations, too.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      I like Simply Noise (google it) with headphones. I also find it helpful to identify my priority projects for work-from-home days ahead of time. I have a lot of different tasks to try to keep up with; some are better suited to home and some better to the office. Sometimes I catch up on phone calls (which I hate but has to be done sometimes); frequently I write reports, tabulate data or other things that are best when you have a good chunk of uninterrupted time. (My office is also very chatty, plus people are way more likely to need my input on a work issue RIGHT THAT SECOND if I’m physically present, even if I’m wearing headphones.) Having a nice clear work surface is good, which I definitely don’t have at the moment at the office or at home. Sometimes I give myself star stickers for being on task every time a timer goes off (I’ll set an alarm on my phone and just keep snoozing it so it’s every 9 minutes).

      I’m better than I used to be at working from home, but it’s still really challenging at times. Good luck!

    3. overeducated and underemployed*

      Sometimes “too quiet” is a problem for me too, especially for tasks that you need a lot of concentration and time to get into, so I get into procrastination cycles for that kind of work. (Simple stuff I can cross off a list is no problem.) The best way I have found to get out of them while working from home is actually to put on Netflix or a spoken word podcast, so I can feel like I’m listening to something engaging, and somehow that takes away the psychological intimidation barrier and allows me to dive into the work. Of course, it has to be something I don’t really care about following, because as soon as I am concentrating, I tune it out.

      Just mentioning because this seems to be the opposite of most other people’s methods.

    4. Lady Kelvin*

      I work from home full time since I’m a grad student in Miami but Lord Kelvin has a full-time “real” job in DC. Here is what I have learned thus far:
      For background noise Pandora has some really good classical music stations that you can mix together and have and “work time” playlist, I like their Hans Zimmer station, but they have lots.
      There are some people who thrive when working from home (I’m one of them) but some people don’t. Some people just need the fact that other people can see that you aren’t working to motivate you to work. Also, when my house is a mess/laundry needs done/etc I have a harder time focusing, so make sure that all your house ducks are in a row the day before you work from home. Otherwise you’ll justify not working to take care of things around the house.
      Despite the fact that I am productive to work from home, there are still days that I need to get out of the house. I don’t do well in coffee shops, but I like to go to our local library for an afternoon if I need a few hours of solid writing time. Then there is no commute but you also have a change of mindset so you are in work mode.
      Also think about shutting off your internet for periods during the day, fewer distractions will help you focus.
      As for the laptop being small, invest in an inexpensive extra monitor. It is unfortunate that work won’t buy you one, but I’m not surprised since it sounds like you are not being required to work from home, just doing it for convenience. That being said, the second monitor is incredibly useful.

      At the end of the day, you might find that you never become used to working from home and you’ll know that despite the commute you need to go to work every day. It sucks, but it takes people who very self-driven and motivated to be able to successfully work from home consistently. Good luck!

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        Small laptop? They drive me nuts. Could you connect to a larger screen and more comfortable keyboard? Even second hand is ok for me, it it makes me more comfortable.

    5. AFT123*

      Give yourself a few months to get in the groove – It took me probably 6 whole months before I really felt 100% productive as a remote worker, but once I got the feel for it, I loved it and had no problems with getting work done. You’ll get into a pattern that works for you. I think if you have some kind of large project to focus on, that will help kick-start the feeling as well.

      1. AFT123*

        Also, I had a small laptop but I also had a desk with two big monitors. After awhile, I actually preferred just working from the laptop. I would do a LOT of my work while lying in bed propped up on pillows, with my coffee and my dog, and that was when I was most productive. For me, the physical comfort of being cozied up made working feel less like a chore. My desk and monitors ended up very dusty.

    6. Gwen*

      I usually listen to music (I don’t mind having music with lyrics while I work), but if I’m feeling distracted I like Rainy Cafe, which lets you adjust sounds of both ambient coffee shop back ground noise & rain as you like. http://rainycafe.com/

      2. Windchime*

        I lasted about 5 seconds with all of the clanking dishes.

        I have a white-noise app that I use sometimes, or I’ll put on a Pandora station with Zen-type music. I only work at home one day a week and my office is right next to the laundry room. Before I start work for the day, I sort out the laundry and throw in a load. The washer/dryer makes a nice, non-distracting noise and I get a little break every 45 minutes or so to put stuff in the dryer or fold.

        1. Tea Pot Dome*

          I have the same set up. Between the washer and the dishwasher, I’m all set! Having to unload clean dishes allows me to stretch and bend, too.

    7. IT_Guy*

      I’ve done a 2 year tele-work gig and occasionally still work from home, and the biggest thing that has helped me is to get a super-cheapo USB mouse. If you do a lot of typing a good keyboard is pretty cheap if it’s corded. The cordless keyboard and mouse combo are a good move, but pricey.

      The biggest problem that I had when I worked from home was two-fold. I live in a very rural area and would literally see nobody but my immediate family all day. I’m a very social person and this got to me after a while. The other problem was that the fridge was too close. :) I solved these problems by going out in the morning and just getting a cup of coffee from the local convenience store, and just say no to the fridge.

      As far as background noise I just used Pandora and set up a playlist that was just middle of road soft-rock that I would start and ignore.

    8. The IT Manager*

      Connect a monitor to your laptop to get two screens.

      Don’t start doing house work or chores or napping instead of work. You don’t want that habit to develop. I do spend time not working when I should (that can’t be helped), but I’m always still in front of my work computer.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Music without lyrics helps me concentrate and stay awake. Sometimes when I work from home, I get so damn sleepy. Of course, now that all my neighbors have decided to collectively own six thousand dogs, that’s not really the case so much as music helps drown them out….

      I used to also put on the TV to a boring channel or a marathon of shows I’d seen a bunch of times already, like Kitchen Nightmares marathon, with the volume low. A news channel might work too. It provided talking to ignore, as in the office. I don’t have cable anymore, so that’s not a thing now, but if you do, it might help if it doesn’t bother you to have it on.

    10. Hollster*

      I work from home full-time (and love it!). I have a laptop, but it’s attached to a docking station and I have a full sized monitor, and a wired keyboard and mouse (thankfully, all paid for by my company). That makes a huge difference – I would find it very difficult to work on a laptop all day long. If you can afford it, I suggest that you invest in a monitor, keyboard, and mouse (better for you ergonomically, too).

      I also echo what others have said about music. I listen to local public radio all day. It’s close by, so I can easily mute it when the phone rings. Helps me feel like I have company!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Do you make a grocery list of tasks each night to do the next day? That might help keep you bumping along. Make a game out of it. “How many of these can I get done before lunch?”

      Sometimes I need to add a strong negative image into the mix to motivate myself. Can you motivate yourself by picturing yourself trying to explain to a ticked off boss why your work is incomplete?

    12. Lady H*

      I’ve worked from home for almost four years now, and my secret weapon is…the Pomodoro method! (There’s a lot of information on Google about the method and quite a few free downloads—I use one on Mac called Pomodoro Time, or you can get a simple kitchen timer.) I find that it’s hard to give myself permission to take a break, so I end up feeling like I’m doing something illicit every time my attention wanders. The Pomodoro method gives me regular excuses to get up, make coffee, browse AAM or personal email, then get back to work. The structure is awesome.

      I’m introverted and wouldn’t trade working from home for anything, though I do struggle to keep focused without anyone here to keep me on task. However, compared to the constant interruptions in an office and those 5-10 minute time wasting conversations I’d inevitably have every day with coworkers it’s likely I’m far more productive at home than I ever was in the office. So don’t beat yourself up for feeling distracted!

      My favorite white noise generator is called Coffitivity. They say it “recreates the ambient sounds of a cafe to boost your creativity and help you work better.” You can play it right from their website.

      2. TootsNYC*

        That Coffitivity would work for me! I did my best concentrating in a table at the edge of the Student Union cafe.

        1. JaneB*

          Seconding coffitivity, I find it very useful.

          Setting myself a work list the night before helps.

          If you have trouble starting work, why not leave the house, take a walk around the block or to the nearest coffee place, then come back and go straight to work? Having a ‘fake commute’ which is short, pleasant and involves a bit of fresh air and a change from ‘home’ to ‘work’ modes (even though you end up at the same place, your house, the act of moving seems to help me believe I’m now ‘somewhere else’) might help with the transition.

          I DO do chores, myself – I make a list of quick 5-10 minute jobs, like cleaning the bathroom mirror, taking out the trash, a short burst of laundry folding or appliance emptying/loading, set a timer on my phone or computer, and take a break every hour – I findthat without the interruptions and natural stroll-excuses of work (check my mail box/see Pete in accounts/copy this/pick up printing from the central hub) I sit too long, and that makes my back unhappy and me very sleepy, so moving for a few minutes every now and then is healthy. On the rare occasions when the house is clean and there are no small chores to do, I do a quick youtube search for a poppy song from my teenage years and bop around (the cat finds it hilarious, no-one else can see) for a few minutes – Abba, Queen, Duran Duran. Youtube because you can get ONE song, and things like spotify draw me in to other distractions…

    13. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I worked from home for about 7 years. It seems that my difficulties were totally different than yours so I am not sure how helpful my suggestions will be.

      It is good that you have a dedicated work space. Is it in a dedicated room? If not, I suggest if possible, that you do move it to a separate room. You should also decorate it as an office. Put up degrees or certifications you have. Have a small office supply “cabinet”/drawer. Only have 1 or 2 truly personal items in your area.

      If you are not doing this already, I suggest that you shower, get dressed, have breakfast, and do everything else that you would normally do as if you were “going” to work. Truly *think*, act, and talk as if you are going to work. If needed, get in your car, drive around the block or so, and then arrive at “work”. If you usually brought your lunch to work, fix it and pack it before you leave to go to “work”. When you get to work, close the door to the room you are in so you are not distracted by other things in the house and also to reinforce that you are at “work”. Do not leave “work” except to go to the bathroom.

      At lunch time (and take a dedicated lunch time) and leave *work*. Again think, act, and talk like you are leaving work for lunch. I suggest (at least at first) that you go out to eat. If you tended to bring your lunch to work and/or can’t afford to and/or don’t want to go to a restaurant to eat, still leave the house and if possible, eat in a park or someplace similar. This would also give you a chance to interact with other people. Be sure and return to “work” after an hour (or whatever your normal lunch time was). Repeat the morning routine.

      At the end of the day, leave “work” and don’t return until the next morning.

      The concept is to get in the mindset that your “work” area is for work just like you would be going to work in a different location.

      I really like some of the other suggestions that others made, such as creating a task list and checking things off as you get them done. You can even put a completion time on the task if needed so that you know you have to get it done by a particular time.

      Can you maybe provide status reports (via email or some other non-intrusive method) two or three times a day so that have someone to hold you accountable? Can you maybe have an instant messenger installed on your and other co-workers computers so that you feel more connected to them?

      For me, what worked was truly making it feel like a true *work* environment as much as possible.

      1. Lady H*

        I do the exact opposite. Your advice is what most people think is the way to go, though, so I know it works best for most people, but not me! For me, the perks of working from home are that I can wear ultra comfy clothes. I can get out of bed right before I start work—I’m not a morning person, so I’d prefer to just jump right into work instead of getting up early for any other reason. I can take a shower and get dressed when I feel like it, not because I have to. It’s the same with food, instead of having to plan the night before, I just make sure that I have a variety of fairly quick and healthy foods around. I usually eat breakfast an hour or two into work because that’s when my body likes to eat.

        I have a dedicated work space but I also let myself work from bed for the first hour, and if I get tired of sitting at my desk I’ll sit on the couch. If I need a break from work, I’ll do 15 minutes of housework and I love that I can get things done at home like laundry or loading the dishwasher and come back to work refreshed. And if I want to leave and enjoy a walk at 3pm because it’s beautiful out, then I’ll do that and pick work up after dinner. (Note that I have a lot of flexibility because I’m a contractor, so I understand not everyone working from home can choose working hours.)

        If I had to treat working from home like a regular office job then I would be miserable. It’s not that I’m undisciplined—I bill by the hour, so I have to be efficient with my time, otherwise I would “work” 12-14 hours without making any money. As I said above, the structure of the Pomodoro method keeps me on task even if I’m wearing sweatpants and am sitting on the sofa. I would honestly advise people to try embracing what makes working from home different from working in the office instead of trying to recreate the office feel and see if it works for them!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I’m with you! Obviously people should do what works for them, but half the benefit of working from home for me is that I don’t have to treat it like going to an office.

    14. MegKnits*

      This may be more seasonally appropriate in 6-9 months but the Fireplace channel or Aquarium channel was the perfect background noise for me. Drowned out any neighbour/hallway sounds for me but monotone that I could concentrate and take phone calls with it on.

    15. Fawnling*

      I worked from home for the first time this week and found that RainyMood.com and aSoftMurmur.com, coupled with ambient lighting, really helped my concentration.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        OK, aSoftMurmur may just be the best thing ever! All The Sounds and I can adjust the volume of each individually?

        1. Fawnling*

          Yes! And you can also set it to “meander” which will take the specific sounds you’ve chosen and raise/lower the volume slowly to keep things interesting.

    16. lmgtfy*

      Music: Try the epic movie scores on google play music or download the Noon Pacific app on your phone.
      Productivity apps: Forest is good for setting up blocks of time where you are not distracted, there are some pomodoro ones as chrome extensions but I’ve found them not that helpful, since while I’m working I’m often also looking stuff up on the internet.
      Set up: Look on craigslist for an external monitor, spend $15 on a mouse on amazon if you don’t have one.
      Lifestyle: It’s great to get up and shower if that’s how you operate, but since I sometimes work out in the afternoon, I don’t always do that. I do change my clothes – out of pajamas, into… well, running clothes honestly and maybe the same ones I wore yesterday, but it’s a change. Brush your teeth also – when I worked from home intermittently and the kitchen was in between bedroom and bathroom I didn’t always manage to do that before noon. Oops. If the cleanliness of the house distracts you, spend the time you make coffee cleaning up the kitchen, or give yourself 45 minutes to work and then a 10 minute sweeping break. If you can IM with your coworkers, it’s a good way to feel in touch and have some background “noise” throughout the day.

      1. Bibliovore*

        When I work from home, I get up around 6:00 am, have coffee and a smoothie, work until 10:45 then go to the gym for a swim. Come home and have lunch. Work until dinner. I work with a laptop on the couch with the little dog tucked under my arm. I return phone calls and email after lunch, otherwise I get sucked into the vortex. I prefer NPR in the background so that it isn’t too quiet.

    17. Mkb*

      I bought a second monitor from Craigslist ($20) and a mouse on Amazon for $7, if made working from home much better

    18. Irishgal*

      Hi…
      The brain tends to work in 20 minute long focus blocks and in offices there are lots of in built natural pauses that cater to that. At home that tends not to happen so focussing can seem more daunting. Arranging to work for 20 mins then a 5 minute break to change music, grab a drink, do a stretch and then heading into another 20 can help. This website is really good and recommended a lot in the industry I work in .. you might find it helpful https://www.mindtools.com/pages/main/newMN_HTE.htm

  19. I'm not a CPA*

    I am a part-time admin at a CPA firm. I’ve been interviewing (for writing/editing/marketing positions, so a huge step up for me) and it’s been going well. If I get an offer, I may be leaving my employer during the worst possible time: tax time.When I got hired two and a half years ago, my boss knew I was overqualified and feared I might leave, and I told wouldn’t leave during tax time. Which I really regret now.

    I didn’t realize at the time I would be forgoing significant opportunities only being able to job search seven and a half months out of the year. My priorities in what I wanted out of a job have also changed significantly – I had come out of a toxic environment before, and working in a normal, sane office was most important to me. But now money, and lack thereof, and doing, you know, what I actually want to be doing, has become much, much more important.

    In addition, if I do get an offer, I’m traveling the week of May 8th, which I expect might make it difficult to negotiate for an after April 15th start date. So I may really end up leaving my CPA boss right before tax day, and I do feel awful about it.

    But honestly, I am sick of seeing all of my peers grow and prosper in the fields they want to be in while I stand at the sidelines. I’m sick of seeing them make thousands and thousands of dollars more a year than I do, while they buy houses and have babies, and I’m still in my crappy apartment paying off my college debt.

    Not that they don’t deserve these things – they certainly work hard at what they do – but I deserve them, too. I have the education, experience, and drive to get a better position in my field. There is more worth to me than, “How may I direct your call?”

    I am one of those people who constantly worries about what other people think of me, and disappointing others, and always putting others first. I don’t want to screw my employer over. I have worked through bronchitis because it was tax time. I have scheduled a vacation, when I rarely get to travel, for an inconvenient time to work around tax time (and subsequently had bad weather on my vacation). This is actually affecting my own vacations and personal time now. I need to finally do what’s right for me.

    And the truth is, there is never going to be a great time to leave.

    After April 15th, my other part time position is going to offer me full time (which my employer has wind of and is not happy). In which case, it wouldn’t be a good time to leave because this other employer would just be committing themselves fully to me.

    If I wait until summer, well, I have just never had any luck job searching during the summer – it’s like employers are either on vacation or are mentally on vacation.

    So I’d realistically have to wait until fall, in which case, I’d have only a small window frame of a few months to job search before it would be January, and thus, tax season once again.

    I know Alison has said before that there’s worse things than a burnt bridge, but I’m still having a hard time alleviating my guilt over this, and I haven’t even received an offer yet.

    1. F.*

      You might be surprised about negotiating an after-April 15 start date and still getting the week off you need in May. The wheels grind slowly at many companies. And you’re right, there never is a good time to leave.

      You didn’t ask, but you might want to re-frame your perspective by not comparing your career track to your peers. Everyone progresses at a different rate and in a different direction. Some people are slow to start, but then their career really takes off when they find their niche. Based on expectations of me when I was in school, I was supposed to set the world afire. That didn’t happen for a number of reasons. However, at the age of 55, I am a happy person and reasonably content with my career progression and see it getting even better in the future. You will find your place to bloom, too.

      1. Kerry (Like the County In Ireland)*

        You know, 2.5 years into a job is a perfectly reasonable time to leave. Especially if it is part time admin work. Your boss, if he’s not dumb, should be expecting you’d be leaving soon. Write up all your procedures and let him hire a temp.

      2. TootsNYC*

        seconding the “you might surprised negotiating an after-April 15 start and still getting time off”

        It’s pretty powerful argument to your commitment and professionalism, that you want to stay at a TAX place through April 15. It should make you look good to someone else hiring you. And you should flat-out tell them that this is a plus you offer–that you would show them the same level of commitment during crunch times, and not just at the end of the job 6 years from now, of course.

    2. AFT123*

      You don’t owe your employer your life. You need to do what is best for you!!! Yes, it will hurt them a little, but as an employer it is their responsibility to plan for these very normal things, like employees leaving. It isn’t your responsibility. Also for what it’s worth, I agree about trying to find jobs in the summer – strike while the iron is hot, get yourself the job you deserve, go through the awkward period of leaving your employer, and live your life. :)

    3. AVP*

      I think you have to take this new job if you get it. I know, it will be terrible for your current boss, but she knows you’re in the market for a full-time position and really, if she can only offer you part-time hours, she can’t begrudge you the opportunity to make a living wage. If she has wind of your other job offering you more hours, she might (hopefully?) already be thinking of how to replace you.

      Almost half the year is an unreasonable demand for people to not leave during. If it was like “March 15-April 15,” okay, but as you point out the current situation only leaves you with a very small window of time to job hunt. You might burn the reference, but that just means you need to be extra careful about making sure the right place is a great fit that you’ll be at for awhile.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Their lack of redundancy/preparation is not your responsibility. It is a bit confounded by the fact that you said that you told him that you wouldn’t leave during tax time, but really, after a few years of part-time work, I don’t think you owe them anything rather than maybe 4 weeks notice during tax season instead of 2 weeks. Because the boss could claim that it takes 3-6 months to get someone up to speed, so you can’t leave during the fall or winter either…oh, and lots of people file for extensions, so it doesn’t end in April, it ends in August!

      And you definitely shouldn’t stop searching at all, even in March — you never know when you’ll apply for a job and they won’t get back to you for months!

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oh, and don’t forget the old saw, what would they do if you got hit by a bus/won the lottery tomorrow? Unless the answer is “I own my own company/am one of only # certified X’s in the country/I have all the root passwords”, the answer is they would be inconvenienced, but they’d survive.

    5. CM*

      Just do it, with apologies for leaving at an inconvenient time.
      This happens constantly — there are always letters here from people racked with guilt over leaving their employers in the middle of a big project, or right before that conference that the company paid for, etc., etc. You’re feeling guilty because you’re conscientious. That’s a good thing. But like you said, you need to finally do what’s right for you instead of always prioritizing what’s good for your employer. It is totally normal and fine. You don’t need to feel bad about it.

    6. CMT*

      April 15th is really soon. Unless you’re getting an offer like, today, I don’t think asking for a start date after then would be problematic.

    7. AMT 2*

      Tax time is a terrible time to leave a CPA firm – if you are staying in accounting. I stuck it out through tax season at my (hopefully) last job in a CPA firm (taxes are not for me!) because of that. BUT – you made that promise to your boss 2.5 years ago; I would say that as part-time admin that promise was good for your first tax season. They cant expect you to stay indefinitely. I would not worry about it, you stuck through two (?) tax seasons and your boss knows you are not going to stay there forever. Besides, as others have pointed out, if you start looking right now you might not even get an offer for awhile, so the point will be moot. Let go of the guilt – it can kill you! it nearly did me (I spent my last tax season trying to not cry on the way to work every morning).

      1. Granite*

        Exactly this. For a part time job, I would never hold that promise beyond the first year. I’m also a CPA, though I lasted exactly one day doing taxes, and that was ~15 years ago.

    8. The Butcher of Luverne*

      You said it yourself: you need to do what’s right for you.

      People leave jobs all the time. Your old job will cope.

    9. SbucksAddict*

      I’m going to disagree with a lot of y’all – I work in management at a CPA firm and I can tell you it would really burn the bridge. We had an employee who gave us notice on April 2 last year and negotiated a “after season start date” of April 16th. Her replacement has really struggled because it’s impossible to train and document anything during the last two weeks of tax season/the first two weeks of a quarterly report month. April and October are the worst two months in a CPA firm. They just are and anyone who leaves at that time does cause bad feelings in their coworkers and boss. Everyone is pushed to the max already and then they have to step up and train a new person when they don’t have the time or energy. She did not get the normal tax season bonus because we gave it to everyone else who picked up and helped to do her job during the month of April. Hopefully she’s smart enough to not list us as a reference in the future as the way she left really impacted the firm and we’re still finding issues from that time.

      That said, I think you should job hunt starting in early April if this isn’t the field for you and you’re leaving accounting totally. Our ex-employee was leaving the accounting profession entirely so the way she left was not important to her. If this is a field you’re going to stay in, though, I’d really suggest you negotiate a post tax season start date. I think tax season is a fairly well known time of stress for accounting firms (the grocery clerk even commented to me about it last night!) and I would think most employers would be understanding if a new employee didn’t want to leave their old employer in the lurch during this time.

      I think it’s reasonable to want to leave and grow in your career. I wish you a lot of luck in that and I hope you find something that makes you happier. Tax season stress isn’t for everyone and finding that out for yourself is really good because now you can use that knowledge to find a job that’s more in line with the lifestyle you want for yourself. You should look at that as a positive and a step in the right direction for your career and not consider this job a stall as you seem to be doing.

    10. Observer*

      If you like your other part time job, take it when they offer you full time. The fact that your current boss is “not happy” is just too bad. Retention is always an issue with part timers, and it gets worse as you go up the skill ladder. That’s something your employer should understand.

      If you like this other job better than your other current job, and they offer you a job, take that. If you think it looks highly likely, but they have not made an offer by the time OtherJob makes an offer, that’s one of the situations where it’s legitimate to ask them about timeline and status.

      But seriously, leave the guilt behind.

  20. bassclefchick*

    I had a very positive job hunting experience this week! I applied for a State job and they did open interviews at a job fair. I thought that was a bit weird, but OK. So I started at their booth and answered their questions. Will be a couple of weeks before I hear if I get a full interview.

    I figured I shouldn’t waste the opportunity while I was there, so I stopped at a few other booths. I talked with the recruiter for a different staffing agency than my current one and she interviewed me right away! She DID confirm my fear that being a temp for 5 years might be making employers wonder why I haven’t been offered a permanent position. But she thinks she can help me. She looked over my resume and thought it looked good (THANK YOU, Alison!) but had me make a few minor changes.

    I’ll take their tests this weekend and hopefully she’ll have a posting that will be a good fit for me. She made me see that my current service isn’t doing anything for me and that even though loyalty is good, I need to do what’s best for me and move on.

    Hopefully this will finally be the year for me to get a permanent job! Thanks, everyone, for all your support as I look for something better.

  21. Internal Interview*

    I’m waiting to hear if I got an internal job I applied for. I work closely with everyone I interviewed with, and I feel so awkward interacting with all of them since the interview–like I’m interpreting everything as evidence that I will or won’t get the job. I just want to know already.

    2. Granite*

      I’m in a similar position, though interviews haven’t started yet in my case. It is definitely anxiety inducing.

    3. Jaydee*

      I’m in a similar position, and it is totally nerve wracking. I hope you get some good news soon! I’m reaching the point where I don’t even care if I get the job, I just want to know and be done with the waiting.

  22. Gwen*

    Just wanted to share some good news – thanks to the advice here, I had a frank conversation with my manager last year about feeling like I was underpaid/undervalued at the company (using the major projects I’ve succeeded at & the responsibility I’ve taken on that I felt was higher than my pay grade as leverage), and after my performance review I just found out that I will (in two stages) end up with an 18% increase to my salary over the course of this year! I know I would have stewed in silence without the tools that AAM has given me – so thank you!

    3. Gwyn*

      This is really weird. You have my name, you have my exact experience (to the percentage!). Am I sleep posting, or are we AAM doppelgängers?

      Hello friend!

      1. Gwen*

        Alternate universe AAMers! That’s amazing! (I will confess that Gwen is a nickname and not what I go by IRL, but still)

  23. Anon today*

    My manager was supposed to give me critical feedback on my largest and most important project this morning. This feedback will determine the entire route of the rest of this project, which is the company’s largest yearly spend. It’s feedback I need to move forward in a timely manner.

    She walked up to my desk, picked up my proposal, scanned it for .5 seconds, then said, “I don’t care. I really don’t”, then walked into her office and slammed the door.

    I am supposed to have the finalized proposal to the executive team by EOD today. I have no idea what is the correct thing to do. I guess I’ll proceed with my proposal and hope for the best.

    1. Fabulous*

      Maybe take a couple key areas you’re needing specific feedback on to her after lunch and ask for input? That way she’s doesn’t have to digest the whole thing at once. Might be less stressful and time consuming…

    3. Kyrielle*

      What Fabulous said, but also (especially if you see any further signs of push-back), maybe ask her, “If this isn’t a good time for you to review this, is there someone else you can recommend to have a look at it, before I give it to the executive team at the end of today?”

      Which reminds her there’s a deadline and lets her shove you to someone else if she’s not up to handling it…if there is possibly anyone who can do it, and if she cares at least enough to do that.

      2. Anon today*

        That was great advice. Thank you. But just my luck that she said no one else has authority to review the proposal and got cranky that I brought up the idea of involving someone else.

        1. Kyrielle*

          *groans and winces* Ouch. Not a good day. :( Well, at least you know for the future. Sorry it worked out that way.

    4. Dynamic Beige*

      I was having this discussion about reports earlier this week. People are busy and for some of them, even 500 words is too much. It was suggested to a colleague that they put an Executive Summary on the front with key points as bullets. I don’t know if that would help in this case, it sounds like she’s having a bad day?

  24. Oy*

    I’ve had 3 interviews this week and one more this afternoon – that I’m in no way prepared for! I was so focused earlier this week on prepping for the two back-to-back interviews I had yesterday. I figured I’d have time to prep for this one last night, but I ended up not getting home until nearly midnight due to some other obligations I had. Any last minute advice?? Eeek!!

    1. Collie*

      Whew! Go get ’em! The fact that you’ve got so many interviews speaks volumes to your ability and confidence already. I wouldn’t worry too much. Take it one minute at a time, relax, and know that we’re rooting for you.

    2. overeducated and underemployed*

      Google and confidence will get you through! You’ve just had lots of practice, after all! Good luck today.

      1. Oy*

        I’m one of their top 3 candidates, but I was pretty sure of that before going in. Now for the waiting game!!

  25. Momnonymous*

    I posted in January about how my kid was having trouble napping at day care. I wanted to give an update: it’s going much better! His teachers swaddle him, rock him to sleep, and then put him down, and he’s been sleeping for up to an hour at a time. He seems to love day care, and I haven’t had to leave work to get him.

    Thanks to everyone for your comments!

  26. limenotapple*

    My boss plays games like solitaire or jigsaw puzzles or whatever in her office for most of every day. She says she doesn’t have a lot to do but the rest of us are swamped. It is also hard to get her to help us with anything because she will get confused, and doesn’t really know how to do most of our jobs. We’re kind of at wits end. She makes about twice my salary to do mostly nothing, and I’m not sure how to go on from here or if I need to just run away. Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of jobs in my oversaturated field to even apply for, so it’s hard to run! I appreciate any ideas anyone might have for dealing with it.

    1. fposte*

      There are two things going on here: you’re ticked off that your manager is playing solitaire, and you’re swamped with work. If you could only change one, which one would it be?

      The first you can’t control–you really can’t tell your manager to quit playing games, and it’s not something worth going over her head about. The second, however, you may have some power over. “I can get to projects A and B, but there isn’t enough time for me to get to C and D, and Lucinda and Percival’s plates are too full to take it on. What do you want to do about C and D?”

      BTW, it sounds like you think she’s a poor manager for not knowing how to do your jobs, but that’s pretty common and nothing to hold against her. She’s not even a poor manager for playing solitaire. She’s a poor manager for not dealing with the fact her team is overloaded.

      1. limenotapple*

        I appreciate your advice. The idea to worry about what I can control is gold, and I am definitely going to think more about that.

        In my field, the manager/director should have some experience and understanding of each facet of running our department. It’s hard to get into more specifics without revealing myself, but this person should have some expertise and experience in at least one of our areas, and usually to get a job at that level you would have a experience in more than one. But you are right, what makes her a poor manager is that she is really not dealing with how overloaded we are and how much isn’t getting done because of it.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, yeah, there are fields where that makes sense. But the “why is this person being paid more when she’s doing less?” issue isn’t actionable and the anger will eat you alive, so focus on clearing your own path.

          And develop as many skills as you can there so that you *can* run if you can’t take it any more.

      1. fposte*

        Maybe, but 1) then the boss should be paying more attention and 2) it’s still going to be a dubious complaint to take to your boss’s boss. My concern isn’t what my boss does that isn’t managing; it’s whether her lack of management is causing work things to fail.

  27. Lillian McGee*

    I survived my first audit! Thanks to yall in previous open threads who advised me to chill. The auditor was pretty emphatic in her praise of my work and there were no material errors (yesss!) but among the recommendations was that I get some additional accounting and nonprofit financial training. A lot of my answers for why I did things a certain way were “I just did it the way it was done before” or “[CPA consultant] told me to do it that way…”

    While I don’t relish the idea of going back to school, I would be open to seminars and courses that last a few weeks at most. Any suggestions for where I might start looking?

    1. LQ*

      That is awesome!

      In my state we have a council for nonprofits that does a lot of support for nonprofits and I know they offer a few seminars for finace. I would absolutely start looking at a place like that for the non-profit specific aspect. For general accounting things I think it might be good to look online like at Coursera or the like where you might be able to take some free things online that would be helpful.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Industry associations or you can look to your state CPA society or the AICPA for training on those topics. You don’t have to be a CPA or a member to take most of the classes.

    3. it happens*

      Congratulations! Why don’t you ask the auditor if she has any specific suggestions? Also, the nonprofit centers recommendation is good – there are lots of them, even geared to specific kinds of nonprofits.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m preparing for my first audit at this job [and first ever.] Similar situation, nonprofit-I’m a bit anxious.

        Only positive is I wasn’t here during the time period under audit, but I have done journal entries backdated to that time frame, so some things could still be my fault.

    4. CPALady*

      Yay! I’m glad the audit went well and you’ve got direction for the future. How quick are you to learn new things in a self-paced atmosphere? You may want to just start by getting some course textbooks for Principles of Accounting (usually there are two courses for this in undergrad programs). Buy used textbooks and just go through them chapter by chapter. The principles taught in those classes generally don’t change, and most of the textbooks are basic enough since nearly all business majors have to take at least on Principles of Accounting class.

      Alternatively, if you’re really doing mainly bookkeeping work (you have a CPA consultant that it sounds like you could rely on for more in-depth situations), take a look at the textbooks from the American Institute of Professional Bookkeepers. They have a certificate program, as well, if you’re interested in that.

    5. Nonya*

      I second the suggestion about looking into AICPA courses. They are comprehensive and should give you a solid foundation. There is even one course that specifically covers nonprofits. Even if the majority of what you do is bookkeeping, there is value in understanding the broader picture.

  28. Emilia Bedelia*

    Got a lesson in “you just don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes” this week- I interviewed for a job a few weeks ago and have anxiously been waiting for updates. Last week, they let me know that I am a final candidate and asked about salary and ideal start dates- yay! I was hoping for an offer earlier this week and spent a long time checking my phone and email obsessively. Monday afternoon, I get an email from the recruiter with an update… it’s her last day with the company and I have a new point of contact. I never would have imagined that would happen- just goes to show, you never know why it’s slow!

    Related: it’s been almost a week- can I ask for an update from my new recruiter contact? She’s only been on the job (or on my case, at least) for 4 days or so, so I totally understand why I haven’t been contacted, but is it ok to remind them I exist, so to speak, and ask for an update on their timeline?

    1. BuildMeUp*

      I think you can definitely get in touch with the new recruiter! If you haven’t already, you can introduce yourself, say you’re looking forward to working with her, etc., then say you’re following up about X job that you interviewed for on Y date and are a final candidate for.

    2. Audiophile*

      I would wait until next week. If I’m understanding this correctly, this is an outside recruiter? Not an internal recruiter for the company? Regardless, I would still wait until Tuesday of next week, as Mondays are always crazy.

  29. Rusty Job Searcher*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m in my first job out of college and am preparing to start looking at options for my next position (I’ve been here two years). I’m feeling rusty in my job search skills, despite being a steadfast lurker here, and am hoping you all can weigh in on a few questions.

    1. What level of detail should I have on my LinkedIn profile? Just job titles? Titles and accomplishments? And does the level of detail vary with the recency of the position (for example, a position I held in college vs. my current job)?

    2. What is the best way to network without any faux pas, given that all of my best networking contacts, by far, I met through my boss? It’s fine if he knows I’m looking, but I don’t want to make my contacts feel like they’re picking sides between my boss and me.

    3. “Don’t go to grad school unless you need to” seems to be a mantra, and I agree…but how do I tell if I need to for the types of jobs I want if those jobs aren’t posted right now online and I don’t have insider contacts in organizations I’m targeting (or I do but they’re too senior to bother them for this type of thing)?

    Thank you!!

    1. Turanga Leela*

      1) Dealer’s choice. I see this both ways. My LinkedIn gives minimal information, just workplace and job title.

      2) This is tricky. If your boss introduced you to someone and you have an independent relationship, it’s fine to ask for that person’s help. If the person is more your boss’s contact than yours, in many jobs it would be weird to reach out to that person about jobs. (I’m assuming your boss herself isn’t helping with your job search—it’s different in an internship, where your boss knows you’re leaving and may help.) Do you have friends who can introduce you to other contacts? Maybe meet people through conferences or professional associations? Also, don’t stress too much about “networking”; it can be helpful, but you can also get a job by just applying.

      3) What kind of job do you want? The AAM community might be helpful with this. This is where networking or informational interviews can be helpful; it’s how you learn about what is required in your industry.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Your LinkedIn is really up to you, but mine is fairly detailed – it helps me keep track of my accomplishments over the years and promote myself to an online audience. I do occasional freelance editing, so it helps me sell myself for that too.

    3. Erin*

      1) For my LinkedIn, I include smaller, less important jobs in addition to the ones I list on my resume – the resume should just be your highlights, but on LinkedIn there’s more room to add something like, working at Barnes & Noble for six months. Or like, I have a scuba certification and have taken a few continuing education type classes I have on my LinkedIn but don’t include on my resume.

      I don’t think the level of detail should vary too too much, but I think it would certainly be acceptable to have a little less detail for jobs a long time ago. Just keep in mind there is more room to add more stuff on LinkedIn, and you should use that, but do not go overboard with it.

      2) If you’re okay with your boss knowing you’re looking, I think it would be acceptable to shoot an email to a couple of your contacts through him either saying you’re looking for a job in X field if they know of something to please keep you in mind OR you could offer to buy them coffee sometime for a more casual networking thing. (I’d be interested to hear others thoughts on this one though.)

      What would definitely be acceptable though would be to follow their careers in whatever way makes sense, thus keeping in touch and staying on their radar without actually asking for something. For example, if they have a blog, be a regular commenter. If they regularly post articles on certain topics on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever, comment on there, or share an article with them. “Hi Bob, I see you post regularly about tips for remodeling your home – I saw this piece on do-it-yourself tiling and thought you would find it interesting.” (Weird example, but you get me.)

      3) Hmm, I don’t think you need to worry about that too much. As you grow your network and look at job postings I think that answer will come to you. Maybe you could look at job ads for the type of job you hope to get at some point, even though it’s not what you’re applying to right now, and see if they require a graduate degree in the description.

    4. themmases*

      Regarding #3, that really depends why the jobs you want aren’t posted.

      If you haven’t been considering this long and nothing you’re interested in for the future is posted *right now*, I’d recommend setting up an alert on a few sites like LinkedIn and Glassdoor so you will get emailed when relevant jobs are posted. While you wait, research the industry other places. See if anyone in your field blogs about it. Look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics handbook to see whether growth is expected for that job and what is usually the entry-level credential.

      If you have been thinking about this for a while and it’s not common for you to see your goal jobs posted, it’s even more important to look into why that might be. Look for networking contacts, blogs, reports from professional organizations in the industry, etc. to see if these roles are often filled internally, if that job is just really competitive to get, or even if it’s on the decline. Even if a graduate degree is a requirement for a certain job, there is still no point in getting it if that job has no growth.

      When in doubt, just keep working. As you get to know your industry more, you’ll get a much clearer picture of your possible paths even without having to aggressively network. Your sense of what degree to get, or whether to bother getting one at all, will evolve in ways you probably can’t anticipate. And unless your job is totally irrelevant to the degree you would want to get, your work experience will make you very competitive for professional programs if you ever decide to go.

  30. Jayne*

    I am curious to know what you all think about this situation:
    I am a receptionist at a large company with many departments, and I receive a lot people who come in for interviews. Usually I get a list of names of who to expect, and who their interviewer is, but when I don’t get a list, I ask the interviewee who they are meeting with. Sometimes they don’t remember the name of the person (which I get, sometimes that can be hard), so then I ask what position they are interviewing for. Every now and then, I get someone who tells me they don’t know that either. I don’t understand this! How can someone not know what position they are interviewing for? One person yesterday said this: “I don’t know what position– someone just called me and set up an interview…Teapots Inc.?” I wanted to wring her neck! I don’t know how someone can prepare for an interview when they don’t know what they applied for. She couldn’t describe what type of job it was either. I thought maybe she couldn’t remember the department name. But she couldn’t even answer that!
    Is this a common thing? As a manager, how do you feel about your candidate not knowing what position they are applying for? Would you factor that into your decision of whether or not to hire her?

    2. Kelly L.*

      It actually happened to me! I was applying to a large university, and had applied to a specific position, but unbeknownst to me, my application put me in a pool for similar positions elsewhere on campus. I got a callback from one of these other departments first. There was a vague connection between the disciplines, so initially I thought it really was connected to the first listing, but I wasn’t sure, and spent part of the interview trying to feel out what this department actually did! :D

      So I guess it matters whether your company puts applicants into a pool–they might be getting called by someone very different from who they thought they were applying to.

      1. Anonsie*

        I was going to say this– it wasn’t at a university, but this happened to me several times. I applied for one job and they brought me in to interview for another one without giving me a lot of information, like as if that wasn’t extremely important. In all cases I came in anyway but if someone had asked me what position I was there for I would have squirmed. I wonder if there are some departments at your company with a penchant for this.

        At the same time it would not surprise me at all of a portion of all applicants that forget what job they were applying for would shrug at this question, but if you get it a lot I would suspect something is up with your company on this.

    3. Emilia Bedelia*

      A similar thing happened to me when I was applying to internships- I’d apply to multiple internships, which would have the same title (Summer Research Intern or whatever) , but would be in different departments. So when it got to the interview stage, I had 3 different interviews for kind of similar lab jobs with different departments… and none of the interviewers would use titles that matched up with any job descriptions I had! I also wasn’t familiar with a lot of the internal terminology, so things like “you’ll be working with the downstream group” made no sense to me. I was too nervous to ask a silly question like “so, what’s this job called, anyway” so I went through multiple interviews not really knowing what jobs I was interviewing for. I managed to get one of them, remarkably, but I certainly felt lost.

    5. Audiophile*

      I worked as a receptionist for a long time and would regularly find people not just at the interview stage (but more than one at the first day stage) who did not know the job title, department, etc. I was bewildered. Certainly more bewildered by the people who had accepted a job offer and still weren’t sure about the job title or department.

      Then a few months ago, it happened to me. I had a applied for an internship, but also applied for a job at the same company. I got a call and the conversation couldn’t have been more vague, asking me to set up an interview and when I called back, there was still no information given. I ended up canceling it later on.

    6. katamia*

      I’m super forgetful, and I’m pretty sure I’ve done this, especially when applying for admin jobs–you have administrative assistants, receptionists, secretaries, office assistants, etc. Maybe there’s a difference I’m not aware of, but the job postings, at least in my area, seem to use all of these to refer to the same kind of job at different companies. If I were applying for a bunch of admin jobs, I might not be able to remember what your company called it. Now, if they’re applying to be senior vice president of marketing, I’d hope they would remember that, but for admin-type positions, I think you should mentally cut them some slack. Interviewing is hard and nerve-wracking, and they may be so busy trying to remember a time they dealt with a difficult customer or a conflict with a boss or whatever they think they’re going to be asked that they’re not thinking about the exact job title.

    7. Observer*

      I see two possibilities. If you are seeing this a lot, then odds are that there is an issue with the way your company is listing jobs or setting up interviews (or both.) If you have the right relationship with someone who could make a difference, I’d bring it up.

      If it’s not common, then it’s probably the person. In that case, it’s information the hiring manager needs to have. And, the person who didn’t even know anything is probably a flake or having a really bad day, regardless of what the rest of the process looks like.

  31. Jimmy Jack Funk*

    A member of my team recently left the company. So, I gave the other team member his old office because she’s been here a while and a good worker. We are now hiring his replacement and it looks like the person will be more experienced, credentialed, and have a higher title than the woman who now has the office. We only had one office to give. How do I go about taking it back from the person who I believed earned it in order to give it to the new person who will also be overseeing some of her work?

    1. NJ Anon*

      Ouch! My initial thought was that you don’t take it from her. That would be really crappy. Perhaps you explain to the new hire the situation and let them have the next office that opens up.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        Yeah…If that happened to me, I’d be looking. “We value you! Wait, just joking, we don’t value you as much as this new person who just started.”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          This is fascinating to me — you and others would leave over this, even if it was explained to you and your manager was super apologetic? I never would have predicted that as a common response (and think it’s not uncommon to have to give up an office to someone more senior).

          1. katamia*

            It would depend on how it was presented. If it was “This office is your reward for being a good worker,” then it would feel like a slap in the face, although I don’t know that I would leave over it if I were happy otherwise. But if it was just “Hey, you’ve been here awhile and we like you. Want this office?” then it wouldn’t be so bad.

          2. CMT*

            I would view this as similar (but obviously not exactly like) to a raise, or other perk that comes with seniority. You wouldn’t offer somebody a raise and then take it back because you had to use it to pay a new hire.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Can you just say that you did not see this one coming and most certainly if you had you never would have put her through moving into the office and having to move out again? Explain that you were trying to reward her good work and it backfired on you. Tell her you will keep her in mind for other forms of recognition.

      1. Audiophile*

        Ooof, no. I just went through an office move and the one of the many things that bothered me about it was lack of communication. I don’t think you can reasonably take it back and expect her to stay put. I’d feel really undervalued, especially as a long time member of the team.

    5. Doriana Gray*

      Take the L on this one and let her keep the office. The new person coming in presumably doesn’t know the person they’re replacing previously occupied – for all she knows, Jane has always been there. Let it go, and I agree with someone above who said that when a new office opens up, make sure your new hire is first in line for it.

      1. Shortie*

        +1 – the new hire probably won’t think anything about it because she’ll assume that Jane has always been there.

      2. Shell*

        I disagree, since the new hire is supposed to be overseeing the Office Dweller’s work. I’m assuming this means that the newcomer may be managing the Office Dweller in some capacity. It’d be really weird for a manager to not have an office but her direct report has one.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      Go talk to your worker and explain what happened! Tell her you still want to honor and reward her hard work. Ask her if you could offer her X or Y instead. Maybe offer to pay for a class? An office is only one way to show that a worker is valued.
      If your new replacement is overseeing work then it is practical and essential that s/he get the office.
      One way to build trust is to admit when you screwed up AND be willing to make it right.

      1. Engineer Woman*

        I second this.
        The explanation provided (new hire more senior than originally expected and will now supervise part of your work) makes complete sense to me to unfortunately require new office dweller to move out.
        Agree also to offer old employee something in return to acknowledge his/her contributions.

  32. Christina*

    My best friend (work or otherwise) and person who has kept me sane (honestly we’ve kept each other sane) in a very insane place just gave his two weeks notice :-( He’s leaving for a great opportunity, and is advocating for me to get a (about 5 years overdue) promotion, but damn. It’s going to be rough when he’s gone.

    1. Mouse in the House*

      I’m sorry that’s happening. :( I feel you! Are you able to move to a different (more sane) company?

      I wasn’t as close with this person, but a coworker of mine–who is arguably the most professional and best person in the whole organization who can deal with the politics here–is leaving today. I used to look to her as a source of inspiration and strength when the politics would flare up in the office. I’m going to miss her. And I’m taking it as a sign that I have to stop telling myself I’ll look for a new job and actually just do it.

    2. NJ Anon*

      You need to follow their lead. This happened to me in reverse. I left insane place first, friend left soon after.

    3. themmases*

      Agreed you should follow their lead. I had a friend like this in a toxic place, and it would keep me up nights worrying how I would handle it when it looked like she was going to leave first. (I was leaving for grad school so I couldn’t really leave early.)

      I ended up winning the quit race after all, and I know it was hard on her the following year until she could leave, even though she also became friends with my replacement. It was hard for me too as her friend to keep hearing about the terrible job I was trying to move on from.

      When your promotion is 5 years overdue, it’s a sign it may never come, or be worth having if it ever does. This happened to both me and my friend. One of the doctors we worked under freaked out at the thought of losing me, reassessed both our roles, and pushed hard for my replacement to be hired at a better title and for my friend to be promoted. Ultimately neither happened, for the same dumb reasons they hadn’t happened in the last 5 years.

      1. Christina*

        Yeah, we’ve both been looking for a long time. We have a new director who I’ve gotten along with excellently so far, and that will be a big help for the promotion and addressing my insane manager in general. Honestly, being able to put a new title on my resume will be a huge help in my job search. And the money would be nice too.

        It actually probably worked out for the best that we were each others “this is crazy, right? It’s not just me?” or he would have jumped for something a lot sooner, but the position he ended up waiting for is an incredible opportunity (basically moving up 3 levels of management in one move).

    4. pomme de terre*

      Keep job hunting, but now might also be an excellent time to angle for a promotion or raise if you’re in the same department and you’ll be picking up some of his work and the bosses want to keep you around.

  33. ACA*

    What’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever found in your desk/office, that was left behind by its previous occupant? For me, it was four unopened DVDs of the Canadian edition of some obscure Brendan Fraser film.

    2. Virginian*

      The person I replaced left her tax refund information and a lot of the projects she did at a previous university. She must have left in a hurry.

        1. Virginian*

          I sent it to her house, but whether she received it or not, I’m not sure. She took a job overseas but her partner was still living at their house from what I heard.

    7. Gandalf the Nude*

      A hoard of highlighters. Like an entire file drawer full of them. Months later we found out he didn’t like other people using highlighters (what?), so he kept them hidden from the rest of the office. But the office manager didn’t realize, so every couple months she’d figure we were out and order more, and he’d hide those as well.

    8. F.*

      Her body odor and stains in the carpet around where her desk was. I had to keep the window open for a week to air the place out, and it still smells bad when it gets too hot in the room (six months later).

    9. Lillian McGee*

      I found a… geez, what is this thing even called… a big rubber band with handles that someone would use for exercise. Resistance band?

      Also mounds of crumbs and what seemed to be a thin glaze of maple syrup over EVERYTHING and, eventually, a cockroach. In the drawer.

        1. CMT*

          I really hope you and hermit crab work together. I don’t want to think about the possibility that there are multiple people out there doing this.

        1. Florida*

          Maybe their co-worker wouldn’t let them have a trash can (unless they signed the no food oath), so they had to put the nail clippings in the drawer.

    11. AFT123*

      A detailed log with time stamps of her boss’s activity… who was now my boss…. We also found a thighmaster in the closet.

    12. MaryMary*

      A catalog for Reniassance/epic fantasy (think Lord of the Rings) costumes and props. The mental picture of my former coworker in chain mail and a cape was priceless.

    14. NJ Anon*

      Underwear (new, unworn). Apparently the woman who had the office before me bought it at lunch time and left the bag in her drawer (her drawers in a drawer!). She still worked there too.

    15. evilintraining*

      My boss resigned under pressure last month, and another coworker and I had to pack all her stuff to be delivered to her house. Right before that happened, she brought in her Shepherd for a checkup (we’re an animal shelter with a clinic). The dog was a little wigged out and was stress-shedding. Everything we packed had a pretty good coating of dog hair all over it.

    16. OwnedByTheCat*

      A wooden dildo.

      I’m in fundraising but it was part of a sex-ed program that my org does. Apparently they’d been handed out by a program staff member with a particular sense of humor and just been forgotten. Just amazing.

    17. CM*

      This thread is the best! I thought loose raisins and a million tchotchkes from trade shows were bad… I’m most intrigued by the short story about coworkers. I’m imagining that Dan the engineer is having a torrid affair with Terry from accounting, who is found under a desk surrounded by paper clips and Post-It flags…

      1. Kelly L.*

        I had a former co-worker who wrote a play script about everybody that worked there, but it wasn’t found after she left, she showed it to us while still working there! We were all saying/doing whatever had become our stereotypical activity or catchphrase. Lots of inside jokes.

      2. Hello Felicia*

        There was some relationship stuff in it and it was the equivalent of Dwight and Pam having an affair. It was hilarious, but not in an I’m going to show this to the rest of the office kind of a way.

    18. literateliz*

      Hahaha! Mine are from an assistant language teaching job in Japan, where (a) you are expected to leave behind lesson plans and notes for your successor, some of which can be goofy because you’re working with kids, and (b) there is a… different… standard of professionalism (lots of teachers just out of college, some of whom don’t take the job very seriously).

      1. A full-color photo of Kim Jong-Il. (It was with other photos of world leaders for a “Who is this?” activity, so it made some kind of sense, but… yeah, I went with anime characters instead.)

      2. A printed lesson plan with suggestions for debate topics, one of which was “Who is the best/worst teacher at (our school)?” Handwritten under that: “Don’t use this. (Head English teacher) CRIED.” Uhh… okay, noted.

    20. Audiophile*

      A floppy disk. To my understanding, there hasn’t been a computer in the building that took a floppy disk in about 10 years, so I doubt it belonged to the previous occupant.

    22. Ife*

      I also mentioned this upthread, but I found Dilbert comics from one of those page-a-day calendars. In hindsight, they may have been an attempt by my predecessor to warn me about some things ;)

      Also, he forgot his badge a lot. One of the drawers was filled with temporary badge clips they give us when we forget our badge.

    23. Hattie McDoogal*

      A locked drawer that no one seemed to have the key to, that apparently held something delicious for ants. They exhausted the supply of… whatever it was within a couple of weeks and stopped marching across my desk/computer, but that was an annoying fortnight.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Eeeew, this would squick me out so bad. I can feel them crawling on me now. *shudder*

      2. Audiophile*

        Did you ever get it unlocked? I really want to know what they were after in there.

        1. Hattie McDoogal*

          I never did! My best guess was sugar, since another one of the (unlocked) drawers had tea bags in it.

    24. Mononymous*

      A cup full of loose change, several souvenir items (pen, small bottle, etc.) with gold flakes in water inside, and a 70s-vintage macrame wall hanging of an owl. All in the same desk drawer.

      1. Jules the First*

        Eight unwrapped toothbrushes (but no toothpaste), $77 in random coins in six currencies, 34 chipped suit jacket buttons, and (I kid you not) the roll bar from his Lotus. And a Polo mint.

    25. InsideTheBox*

      Hmm. That’s a tough call between the piece of an office chair (and I’m talking just the metal bit that connects the back and seat) and a photo of the team from 20 years prior with all the teams signatures. Only 1 or 2 people were still on the team from that time.

    26. NicoleK*

      Some one left their resume and cover letter saved to the shared drive (cover letter was dated in 2012). Said person is in a different site, but still with the company

    27. Windchime*

      I didn’t find this, but my sister did. This awful man who wore stained shirts and did the bare minimum finally resigned, and left all kinds of personal stuff in his desk including a whole stack of pay stubs. Not only did she have to throw his crap out, she found that he made a whole lot more money than she did.

    28. Rubyrose*

      Two tubes of KY jelly. It was found by our admin, who was packing up the desk of the guy while I was firing him. A small portion of the reason he was being terminated was that he was caught surfing the internet for pictures of scantily clad women. Admin told me about it right after we had escorted him out the door with his personal possessions. Yuck!

  34. Carrie in Scotland*

    Work related updates: this is my second full week of unemployment. I’m still waiting to hear on 2 jobs I applied for – I’m trying to apply for different admin related jobs, rather than just admin assistant ones, so there’s a co-ordinator role I’m waiting to hear back on.
    I’ve got an appointment with a temp agency next week as well, so fingers crossed for that. Hopefully something will come from it, they seem quite keen for me to be on their books.

  35. T3k*

    For those who apply for out of state jobs, particularly for entry/junior level positions, do you say something in your resume that you’re ok with moving or assume they know that if you’re applying anyways (assuming it’s not the type of job application that lets you create a profile and select “yes” to relocation)? I guess you could say I’m in the ideal position where I’m not married, no kids, and in my mid-20s, so I’m up for moving pretty much anywhere in the country (I was never a homebody person).

    1. Virginian*

      Yes, I always mention that I am willing to relocate when applying to out of state jobs, but you also might have better luck if you have some connection to the area where you’re applying.

    2. CMT*

      I’m looking to move and in my cover letters, I’m mentioning in the first paragraph that I’m looking to move to X location this spring. (I don’t actually have a set date. I’m hoping to get a job and then move, and really even the location is up in the air at this point. But they don’t need to know that.) Then in the last paragraph, I reiterate that I’m moving and I write that I’m willing to pay for the cost of relocating and traveling for interviews. I totally am willing to pay for those; it’s not standard in my industry that a prospective employer would pay those costs. I want employers to know right up front that it won’t be a problem.

      1. Sunflower*

        Funny I put the part about moving and paying for relocation costs on my own in the fist paragraph right after my opening sentence

    3. fposte*

      You really have to say, and you have to make it convincing. Locals are less trouble, and you’re competing with them. I’ll follow with some AAM links.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      do you say something in your resume that you’re ok with moving

      I think you say something stronger than that. Give some context as to why you’re moving (why that particular company or that particular city is appealing to you).

    5. NJ Anon*

      I’m not but please do. As a hiring manager, it blows my mind that I get resumes from 10 states away with no cover letter. They go in the circular file!

    6. Sarah*

      I did this about 2 years ago (with great success – I got quite a bit of interest and found a job that fit my skills/experience within 3 months from halfway across the country). Similar to CMT I always mentioned in my cover letter that I was planning to relocate to X location in the spring/fall/winter whatever even though I would only move if I got a job. I never explicitly mentioned that I was willing to cover costs associated w/ interviewing but I was and did.

    7. AnontherFed*

      Definitely say something in the cover letter. If you’re looking in places that tend to be magnets for new grads (nearby big city or to an area famous for your industry), that’s enough. If you’re being less specific/standard on location and/or moving far, then you need even more emphasis in the cover letter for why the job, company, and location are exciting to you. Otherwise, you’ll get thrown out because no one expects you to want to live in Super Rural Area, deal with Northeast weather, relocate to a flyover state, etc.

  36. Mouse in the House*

    When I first started my current job, I worked very quickly and felt pretty productive. After a while I felt the work slow down and one day, I literally had nothing to do. I told my supervisor, he gave me some work, but this happened a couple more times. Eventually I just started wasting 1-2 hours every day and working more slowly because I was afraid I’d hit another point where I didn’t have any work and I felt really awkward to keep having to tell my boss that I didn’t have enough. I’m unhappy working more slowly (which does not come with a positive of being more accurate or anything), and I want to work at my usual pace but I anticipate reaching another point where I have nothing to do. I’m dreading that point. Any advice? (Also, I feel like Alison answered this kind of question not too long ago but I can’t find it now. If you have the link, please do share!)

    1. Journal Entries*

      Don’t rely on your supervisor to give you more work, find more work. Is there a new spreadsheet/database/guide you could write to help yourself and others in your position? Filing to do? Manuals to study? I want my employees to fulfill their basic duties, then take initiative and keep busy. That’s what makes an employee more promoteable to me.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know what kind of work you do, but when I’ve had office jobs and felt the work was slow, I would just give myself tasks to do—improve our current systems, write more thorough documentation. And then I would start doing things that would directly benefit me that would indirectly benefit the organization (teaching myself a programming language, reading up on trends in our industry).

    3. Clever Name*

      That happened to me at my last job. I was in a small satellite office, and I kept asking my boss for more to do (and I was supposed to be 99% chargeable on projects) so I couldn’t really find stuff to do on my own. It sucked, and is another reason why I left that job. (The primary reason was my boss was a terrible person and boss)

  37. CascoBay*

    Two questions on higher ed staff applications & would love to get input from anyone who has gone through the process of getting a job at a college or university (leaving aside the rant about how annoying long, involved applications are):
    1. I’ve left seasonal work off my resume because it’s essentially irrelevant (I have 20+ years work experience, most at one company). My gut feeling is that they’re looking for relevant work and that it might also be ok to drop off some of my very early positions as well. Or is this like government and that’s going to cause issues?
    2. Every higher ed app I’ve come across has requested previous salaries. I’ve gone with all sorts of variations to avoid putting that down ($0, confidential, etc.)—and I also haven’t heard back in most cases. Am I shooting myself in the foot? My previous salary is out of the norm for my new location and seems just as likely to take me out of contention if I put it down as if I don’t. Thoughts?

    Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it depends on the institution type. I used to work at a large, private university in a major metro area. All applications, regardless if they passed any sort of screening, were sent automatically to the hiring manager, who then weeded them out based on his/her own level of criteria. I think to answer #1 above, you’re fine to leave on irrelevant positions. #2 is trickier. I don’t think anyone at my old job even looked at this section, but YMMV.

      FWIW, my old office would likely have screened out someone with 20+ years of experience for a lot of our positions (most openings were at the Assistant Director or Associate Director level), because they would have been wildly overqualified.

    2. Lia*

      Higher ed staff here

      on #2, if the salary is a required field and you put in $0 or confidential, you will be screened out here, sorry. The reason they ask for that is that most of our positions are salary banded by position level.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          At my old job, we’d publish the salary grade, which corresponded to the salary band, which was easily findable on our website. So, we wouldn’t post the actual range, but you could get a vague sense of the salary by looking at the grade.

      2. Ms. Anne Thrope*

        Question–I’ve had a couple of these that wanted salaries from ALL the jobs on my resume. So, we’re going back to 1993 here.
        a. I have no idea
        b. What possible relevance can that have?
        c. It’s honestly none of their business.
        So if I fudge on these are they seriously going to toss my app??

        Also–what about in a relo scenario where my pay for Small Town is a good $25k less than its equivalent in Big City? Are they going to expect me to take a de facto pay cut on the grounds that I should be happy w/ a ‘raise’ of $whatever?

    3. CascoBay*

      Thank you both, this helps a lot! (especially the wildly overqualified part!) I’ll proceed accordingly.

    4. HigherEdQueen*

      I work in higher education and I am also a hiring manager.

      If the seasonal work is unrelated, leave it off.

      Where I currently work, salary is optional on our applications and many leave it off. If it’s not optional on the ones you are seeing and will only take numerical entries, fill in $1. Trust me, if you have the right qualifications, you will still get called for an interview. I don’t think people should have to disclose salary information. It can only be used against you.

  38. A nonny miss*

    How do people job search while employed, without their boss knowing? It wouldn’t be the end of the world if my boss figures out I’m looking for a new job, I just think it could be awkward. My employer is fairly flexible about working from home and taking time for appointments, and I do have several days of vacation I can take. But how can I suddenly start taking more time off on random days/times for unspecified reasons, potentially with less notice, without it being incredibly obvious that I’m interviewing? I may be overthinking this, but this is the first time I’m looking for a job while employed (first job after university, previously I’ve always been in school when applying for jobs), so I’m wondering how people usually handle this.

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I usually try to schedule appointments for after work hours and it’s almost always been possible. Employers understand! When it hasn’t been possible, I try to schedule it as late in the day as possible, and head out early “for a doctor appointment.”

      1. T3k*

        Same. The few interviews I’ve had while working I try to do before I need to be in (my workday doesn’t start until 10am) or I schedule to leave early for an appointment.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t done too many secretive job searches (in fact, I think I’ve done only one ever), but it was fairly trivial. Most of the time, you’ll do phone screens before doing an actual in-person all-day interview. So the phone screens you can schedule for before work, after work, or even during lunch (as long as lunch is off campus or you know you won’t be disturbed/overheard). Perhaps you’re super in demand, but I generally will get only 2-3 on-campus interviews in one job search (a lot more phone screens), so you can use vacation days for those… or if they’re not all-day interviews, you may be able to leave work early or come into work late those days.

      That said, if there’s any way (i.e., your boss is semi-reasonable and won’t fire you on the spot or try to sabotage your search) to make your search non-secretive, I’d highly recommend that. Lots less sneaking around. You can actually use your current manager as a reference. Your current manager may even help you with your job search. You can possibly help choose and train your successor.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Like they said, it’s really not a big deal — a couple “doctor’s appointments” and a “waiting at home for the cable company,” and Bob’s your uncle.

    4. Development Professional*

      Unless you start getting A LOT of interviews all at once, it’s not going to be that much time off, especially if you can schedule at least some of it for early/late times that won’t be noticeable. Don’t over think this too much.

  39. Changing jobs?*

    How do you know when it’s time to move jobs?

    I’m a senior associate in BigLaw. The hours aren’t bad in comparison to other firms, but still plenty of late nights. However, there is a bit of a culture shift afoot, bringing higher target hours with it and I’d rather work fewer hours than more in the future. And, the billable expectations is less the issue, it’s more the conference calls on a Sunday and the unnecessary fire drills (the partner in my team is insecure and terrified that clients will leave him if he doesn’t turn everything around within five minutes). It’s the unpredictability and the fear of your weekend or evening plans being ruined, more than them actually being ruined all the time or even that often.

    I don’t think I want to be a partner here, but I don’t know whether I’d want to be partner anywhere. I like the work I do now, but I am an introvert and I hate marketing, schmoozing clients etc. However, it’s not really clear to me what I would do in the alternative, as I don’t want to be a career associate either. I want to progress. If I did stick around, I think I would make partner here in a few years, but I don’t really relish the prospect. Couple that with the fact I have serious motivational problems in that I can barely get any work done unless I absolutely have to, I figure these might be signs it’s time to move on.

    That said, I really like the people I work with, we have a great fun team and generally (when I can be bring myself to do it) I like the work. I have a good reputation here and I’m concerned that moving on to somewhere else may be a mistake. There are roles out there and I interviewed somewhere this week where the recruiter indicated they would come back with an offer, but I’ve been here since I left law school so cutting the aprons strings is hard.

    How does one decide whether it’s time to move on, other than when you absolutely hate your job (I don’t love it, but I wonder if part of that is just boredom, because I have a pretty good deal here).

    1. Elysian*

      I don’t think you can answer “where should I go next” at this stage in your career without at least a sense of “where do I want to go eventually?” If you want to make partner somewhere, that is a very specific career trajectory. If you want to go in-house, depending on your year, right now or very soon, before partnership is on the table, might be the right time to make a move. If you’re interested in government, it will depend on where you are, what type of practice you have, etc. Moving between firms isn’t too unusual, but the later you get in your career, the more it becomes a question of “why move if you’re so close to partner?” and if you want to make partner, making a move could make it that much easier or harder, depending on your prospects. I think “when should I go?” is really dependent on where you want to go, so you’ll need that answer first.

      1. Changing jobs?*

        Yes – this is exactly the bit I struggle with. I haven’t got a clue. Being partner was always the goal when I left law school and then I realised I don’t want the marketing side of it, but I haven’t got a clue what I would do instead. In-house or government doesn’t really appeal. I feel so stuck because of this as I genuinely haven’t got a long-term plan and I’ve been struggling with that for years (which has been one reason why I haven’t moved anywhere).

        1. Elysian*

          It sounds like you’re in an ideal position for informational interviews (in the way they should actually be used). I know networking is awful, but you might considering looking in your law school’s alumni directory or something and finding some local alums with different types of jobs, seeing if you can get together for coffee, and trying to get a sense of what they actually do in a low-pressure way. It isn’t the schmoozing type of networking, but I think people will understand if you tell them you’ve been thinking about your long-term career goals and are trying to get a sense of what is out there, do they have a few minutes to talk about what their job is actually like? You might also think about how maybe pro bono and CLE could help you answer this question instead of just being checks-in-a-box.

          Or maybe you’ve practiced for a while now and want to transition out. There’s no shame in that either. Would another type of job entirely get you more excited? You don’t have to “burn out” to decide that you’ve done law for awhile now and it was good, but you’d rather move on to a different type of opportunity.

          1. CM*

            I was coming to say the same thing as Elysian. I was in the same position as you a few years ago (well, midlevel rather than senior associate) and I did a lot of networking. Whenever I met other lawyers, I’d ask, “Do you know anyone local who does X type of law, and could you put me in touch with them?” People were totally willing to talk to me (over coffee/phone — I asked them what they did, what they liked and didn’t like about it, how they got there, and if they had any ideas for me about what I could be doing) and I ended up in my current job, which I didn’t know existed before the networking.

            1. CM*

              Also: if there’s a partner at the firm who you trust, consider confiding in them that you’re thinking about leaving, and ask for advice. They may be in a position to help you identify and get a new job.

        2. Triangle Pose*

          I’m curious why in-house doesn’t appeal to you. If you find the right role (a sizable and functional legal department with a Fortune 500 company that is doing well financially), it seems to be it would allow you to practice the kind of work you’re interested in without the billable expectations, numerous Sunday conference calls and the unnecessary fire drills. There is also less marketing because your clients are internal ones so you often use your work as the marketing tool – they come back to you because your work is good, there is less competition, unlike competing with other firms/partners for the client.

    2. Turanga Leela*

      I’m not a BigLaw attorney, but word on the street is that people who move from BigLaw to in-house positions are happy with that choice. I’m guessing you’ve looked into those jobs? Senior associate seems like a good time to make that transition.

    3. Busytrap*

      Oh my gosh, I was you (albeit with less years in when I made the jump), down to the insecure partner. I jumped blindly because this job seemed interesting, which could have gone terribly (and did for a year or so), but got better with time.

      I want to second the advice from Elysian and CM. If you get a lot of client contact, and have a good relationship with a few of them, reach out and get some perspective about how their practice is different from yours. If you get an offer from the other firm, do the same thing — reach out to someone who is a similar spot and see if they can help you figure out if it’s a good move. Lawyers like to talk about themselves; maybe they could help you figure out the direction to take. :)

      And good luck!

  40. Rick*

    Two minor questions about dealing with pushy recruiters:

    1. How do I politely get someone who’s trying to get me to join their company to leave me alone, without burning any bridges?

    I work with a rarely used programming language at my current job. This one startup in my area uses it extensively, and every month or so their head recruiter contacts me through email or LinkedIn. I have zero interest in working there for a bunch of reasons, like the bad impressions they gave me when I did interview with them. So I always politely decline with some variant on “thanks for keeping me in mind, but I don’t think $COMPANY is what I’m looking for, but I’ll let you know if that changes.”

    The other day the head recruiter asked me if I’m interested yet again, but this time it was a text. That’s WAY too personal for me, especially after I’ve told them I’m not interested in working for their company a bunch of times. Should I say anything, or just ignore them?

    2. What about the other side of the coin, when they approach you thinking you’re a hiring manager?

    A recruiter called me a few hours ago, apparently thinking I’m in charge of hiring for my team. They started telling me about this great candidate they have. I’m not a hiring manager, so I clarified with something like “sorry, but I don’t handle resume screening or hiring, so I don’t feel qualified to answer this.” They basically pushed back with “okay, let’s say you were. Would you bring this person in for an interview?” I just gave them a similar answer of “that’s not my decision to make, so I’d rather not give you an answer that turns out to be inaccurate.”

    Is there a better way of handling this?

    1. Quirk*

      1) You seem quite sure you don’t want to work for this company. Unless you really feel there is a real likelihood of this changing at some point in future, I wouldn’t be too concerned about bridge burning. It’s fairly clear from the way they’ve kept reaching out to you that the power dynamic favours you; they’re much keener than you than you are on them, so you can afford to be quite blunt. The recruiters won’t cease to want you simply because you’ve made it obvious that they’re annoying you, and there is no impact on the people you would work with there in any case.

      2) Your answer was about perfect. Again, you could afford to be blunter. Third party recruiters make their money by treating you as a commodity. They’re sometimes depressingly resilient to rejection. You don’t need to go out of your way to treat them kindly, especially when they’re breaching etiquette.

      1. Rick*

        Straight to the point. Thank you for your advice!

        1. I’d have considered working for them in the past. Not my top choice, because they’re located just over the state line, complicating my tax and commute situations, and I’m very doubtful about their long term success. Thinking a little more about it, it’s kinda nuts that they’d think texting someone who declined multiple times before is a good idea. So, I’ve written off the idea of working with them unless it’s the only way to pay the bills.

        2. True, I just default to being very polite, especially when I’m working. The entire exchange was really strange to me. I can understand asking hypotheticals like “well if you were looking, what would your ideal job be like?” But “if you were a hiring manager right now, would you interview this person, based on a 10 second description over the phone?” That doesn’t make sense!

    2. Elysian*

      I would second a request for more info about handling pushy recruiters. Apparently they think its acceptable to call me at work during the middle of the day, and email me at my work email? I’m a lawyer and other lawyers tell me this is normal, but I am just aghast at how out of line this all seems (my contact info wasn’t published at my last job, so this is just a problem for me as of late) . I usually just ignore them, but like Rick I don’t want to burn bridges! There seems to be no acceptable way of making this stop.

      1. Rick*

        That’s bizarre. I’ve encountered it before, but it never stops being bizarre
        to me. I automatically disqualify any recruiter weird enough to look up my
        office phone number — probably an effect of the tech job boom going on right
        now. My personal phone number and email address are on my resume, so it makes
        zero sense to me that someone would dig up my work number rather than try and
        get me through one of those.

        Is it just me or are they always really coy about it? Like my phone will ring, I’ll pick it up and it’ll go a little like this.

        “Hello, who’s this?”
        “Is this Rick?”
        “I’m sorry, who is this?”
        “Is Rick speaking?”
        “You called me, this is my office number, who are you?”
        “Can you put Rick on?”
        “One last time: who are you?”
        “I’m Jimbo, I’m looking for Rick.”
        “This is Rick, is this related to work?”
        “Yeah, I’m a recruiter with XYZ agency and”

        And then I hang up.

    3. CM*

      #1 I’d text back, “Please don’t text me, thanks.”
      #2 I’d say, “Sorry, I am not hiring.” And if they kept talking I’d say, “Sorry, I’m not hiring, and I don’t mean to be rude but I need to get back to work. Goodbye.” And if they still kept talking I’d say, “OK. Goodbye.” (click)
      Blunt, but if people are that persistent, I think some bluntness is called for. You don’t owe them your time and attention.

      1. Rick*

        I like these! They’re quite direct and show respect for my own time, two things I want to work on.

    4. ginger ale for all*

      One of my old bosses told me a trick to handle angry customers that might work. He said that once you have explained yourself and they still do not get it, start using the same stock phrase over and over. So when the patron was upset over how high their fine was the phrase would be “it’s 25 cents per day per book” and he would repeat it again and again. Perhaps you can just go back to your last e-mail and copy and paste the same refusal again and again. Maybe even shorten it to make it more terse? Some patrons would ask him why he was giving them the same answer over and over again and he would just tell them that they keep asking the same question over and over again.

      1. Rick*

        That’s a cool idea! The last couple of times this company (or an agency recruiter who contacts me claiming to work for them, they’re getting a ton of buzz right now) I sent them a copy+pasted thanks-but-no-thanks. I think either this recruiter thinks they’re being “innovative” and “disruptive” by texting me now. Either that or lazy. At the very least, this saves me time!

  41. AFT123*

    Any awesome resources for exploring other career choices? I’m so interested to know else is out there that is completely different than anything I know of, but I’m not really sure where to look.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Don’t know if you’re a Redditor, but AskReddit has had many threads in the past about interesting jobs. Might want to take a look and see if there is anything there that interests you!

    2. NDQ*

      Read blogs by people in different industries/professions. Find people to follow on twitter who are doing interesting work. Ask your FB contacts about their work. Go to the library and read books about different topics than you usually would read. Watch documentaries about things you don’t know about and see what interests you. Read biographies. Read job postings to see what types of jobs exist and the entry requirements. Look at lists of companies that are members of your local chamber of commerce, then visit their websites to see what they do and the types of jobs they offer.

      NDQ

  42. AnotherFed*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago about having a pair of otherwise very qualified candidates for a posting who had resumes with identical histories/locations (different titles and accomplishments, but always in the same company), making us joke about conjoined twins. It turned out that one of them no-showed for his phone interviewed and never got back to us, but the other interviewed well. New running joke is that it’s really a Jekyll/Hyde multiple personalities thing, and we’re thinking we talked to Jekyll.

    Also amusing – one of Jekyll’s 3 references never could tell the two of them apart!

    1. F.*

      We had identical twins (middle-aged men) apply. The one we were more interested in would not interview without a guarantee that we would also hire his twin brother! Needless to say, neither were interviewed.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Now you need to let us know if you hire him. I hope you didn’t hire Hyde as well as Jekyll.

      Oh, maybe it was one person that managed to snag two jobs for double the pay! That could be why the reference could never tell them apart.

  43. Persephone*

    I’m stuck on how to phrase something without sounding condescending. I’m sure this comes from watching Office Space a million times, but if I want to say something like:

    “I need X, Y, and Z in order to finish A today. If you can get these to me by 2pm, that would be great.”

    How do I phrase the “that would be great” without sounding condescending? I was thinking of using something like “helpful” instead of “great” but that still doesn’t sound right. The best word I can think of that isn’t condescending is “awesome” but it’s not really a great word to use in a professional setting, especially reaching out to people outside my company.

    Thoughts around this? Or am I overthinking?

    1. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

      I usually change it to “Could you please get these to me by 2pm?” because I am not a fan of “that would be great” either (but I don’t find it awful to be on the receiving end of it).

    3. Woods-comma-Elle*

      What happens if you don’t get them? That sort of affects the terminology.

      “That would be great, nice, etc” suggests it’s not absolutely required by 2pm. If it is, I would turn it into a question or just say “Please send me X, Y, & Z by 2pm” and explain your deadline/the consequences.

    6. LCL*

      ‘I need X, Y, and Z by 2PM, so I can finish A. Thank you.’
      The problem with that would be great isn’t that its condescending. The problem is it’s a squishy phrase. What does it mean, exactly, in this case? Is it optional? or must have?
      Speaking as someone who is sometimes perceived as condescending, I get in the most trouble when I use squishy language trying to be polite. People hear vagueness as condescension, sometimes.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      If they’re TPS reports, I think you should keep in “that would be great” (ducks as people virtually throw fax machines at me).

    8. Marketeer*

      How about: “I need X, Y, and Z in order to finish A today. I would appreciate if you could get them to me by 2pm.”

    9. Granite*

      How about, “I need X, Y, and Z in order to finish A today. Could you let me know if you won’t be able to get those to me by 2pm?”

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        I like this wording. I’d probably throw in a please and/or “I appreciate it” but I think your wording balances urgency and consideration.

  44. MarmaladeChainsaw*

    Thanks again to everyone who responded to me on last week’s open thread! I hope you got my reply in that thread to everyone!

    I’m nervous because I’m getting a new department manager on Monday. My situation is kind of unique because when I started this job, I only worked with my manager for 3 months before she was fired. Then it was just down to my coworker and I who were named “co-managers”. We stayed that way for many months until about 2 months ago when my coworker was fired, leaving just me.

    Basically I’ve become used to running things how I see fit, and only answering to the Vice President/CEO of the company (both of whom are very busy and so I don’t deal with them much). I’m very nervous about a new manager starting and having to work in close proximity to authority/being told what to do again. But more than anything I’m nervous that the new manager will be just as awful as my manager who got fired. She was very mean and nasty, and I used to feel sick to my stomach just coming to work and knowing she’d be there.

    Not looking for advice I guess–there’s nothing much I can do–just venting a little, and wondering if anyone else has ever had a similar experience/handled getting a new manager.

    As always, thank you to all who read/reply! I love this blog (=

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Every manager is different. But you know that. Just as you want her to be fair to you, then you should be fair yourself. This means decide that she is a witch AFTER she is witchy, not before you even meet her. Tell yourself you are going to postpone your nervousness until you actually see there is something to be nervous about.

      I think it’s pretty normal to be nervous though. You do have leverage here, you know the people, the work and the culture. You are not unarmed. If she is smart she will want you as an ally.

      1. MarmaladeChainsaw*

        Thanks for your reply! Yeah, you’re absolutely right that I need to just wait and see before making any judgments. Unfortunately I’m a chronic worrier and my mind always seems to jump to the worst possible scenario first. But it’s definitely not fair to her. And maybe having a manager again will actually make things better for me (I struggled a lot here after losing my first manager and having to figure out everything on my own pretty much).

        I’m just going to try to stay positive and see how it goes! Thanks again!

  45. Michaela T*

    Has there been an AAM question about the pros/cons of renting a desk in co-working spaces? I am not sure how to key work search this without bringing up…everything.

      1. Michaela T*

        I would too! I don’t personally have a specific question about it, other then “Have you done it? What did you think?”

        1. NJ Anon*

          I gave it some thought but decided against it. Felt too weird and that I could probably just work from home and save the money.

          1. Michaela T*

            For me I’m interested in it as an alternative to working at home. A chance to get out of the house and be around people in an office environment while working remotely for my own company.

            1. Helen of What*

              I would say it depends on what you do. If you need quiet, make lots of private calls, etc., it may not be the best idea. They’re almost always open plan, and the noise level can be high.
              The customer service of the office mgmt can be iffy depending on the place. The internet connection can be reeeealllyyyy problematic, especially if you need WiFi, since having so many people on one connection leads to issues. Also, they like to throw events and depending on the location of your desk, things might randomly get SUPER LOUD AND DRUNK at 4:30pm on a Thursday. Conference rooms are always in demand.

              But the pluses are interesting desk neighbors, great networking, and getting super loud and drunk for free on a Thursday.

              Source: I have worked in two different coworking spaces.

    3. Development Professional*

      I’ve used co-working spaces a little bit, but mostly to meet with clients for my side business (I get a small conference room instead of a desk). The one I use is great – clean, easy, and people generally keep to themselves. For me, that’s what I want.

      The only thing I’ll say in the negative column is that I do find it kind of expensive, so I don’t do it all the time.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Ooh, I’m interested in this too. I’ve been thinking about it because one of the coworking spaces in my city also includes use of some storage spaces, and I’d appreciate not having to have lots of boxes of materials in my apartment…

      Anyone have experiences with co-working spaces?

    5. katamia*

      I have friends who are self-employed and have done it and absolutely love it. I know at least one of them hangs out with her “coworkers” in her free time sometimes, too. I’m self-employed and work from home too, but I would never want to do it. One of the biggest perks of working from home is not having to get dressed until I want to. I also have a lot of trouble with noise I can’t control (other people’s conversations, chairs squeaking, even footsteps), and I can control the noise better when I’m at home than when I’m surrounded by *shudder* Other People. Plus I don’t think they’d let me bring my (neurotic, overexcitable) dog to a co-working space.

      For people who generally enjoy the office environment and feel really isolated working from home, it might be a good option. But I have never enjoyed working in an office, so I’d basically be paying money to replicate an environment I can’t stand. No point in it for me.

      1. Michaela T*

        If I decide to reach out to one of the local places, I’m planning to ask if it’s possible to rent or sublet a desk for only a few days a week. I like working from home, but my loved ones feel I’ll get “weird” if I do it every day. I think they’re afraid I’ll go feral :)

        1. katamia*

          Haha, I’ve definitely gone a bit feral since I started working from home. But I’m also happier and more productive at home (as well as more successful in my work), so I don’t feel too bad about that, honestly.

          1. JaneB*

            I prefer to think of it as reverting to a more natural state – only a few hundred years ago nearl;y EVERYONE “worked from home”, getting all your workers in one place where they can be overseen is mostly an industrial revolution type development.

            I mean, part of the POINT of working from home is the opportunity to go a little feral, work in sweatpants if you choose, cook something ultra smelly for lunch (tuna fish AND garlic, heated in an open pan, followed by smelly cheese and durian fruit if you want!), sing to your spreadsheets, wear fantastical hairstyles that are entirely inappropriate to your age and professional milieu (my hair is really comfortable in three rolled knots secured with pencils or chopsticks, but it looks ridiculous even to me) or just not brush your hair for a few days, decorate your desk with offensive mini-sculptures made out of paperclips, never wear shoes… as long as you are still productive, that is.

            In my case, my job has three elements – one requires me to be at a physical location in the office about 50%, the other 50% is email email email (so as long as the internet is up can be done anywhere), one involves too many meetings so has to be done at the office, and the third requires intense concentration and creativity, and is almost totally on me (I share near-final drafts with others doing similar stuff for input, but mostly either AM the boss or have no underlings/collaborators for). The latter is almost impossible to do in the office, even though I have a space of my own with a closable door, and is excellently suited to being done at home – being feral and letting out my natural eccentric actually seems to help me be more creative, and being messier and worrying less about appearances helps me be more precise in my work. So working from home some days makes a big difference in my ability to do that part of my job – and going feral is definitely part of it! If I was 100% work at home – parts one and two can be done remotely through e-conferencing and the like, and are in some companies – I’d probably want a day a week somewhere too, mostly to remind me how lucky I am the rest of the time (and to prevent me becoming totally renaturalised – living alone and not having much ‘natural girliness’ or need for socialising in person, pre-industrial levels of personal hygeine might be a real risk after a month or two)!

  46. Callie*

    I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who responded in a previous post about suit options for plus size women. I did find a Calvin Klein suit online in a lovely charcoal gray and decided to take a chance… and it fits! It’s a little baggy in the waist but perfect in the shoulders and hips, so I’m hoping I can get it taken in some in the waist. The gray is great. Dark enough that it goes with everything but light enough that it doesn’t look like funeral wear.

    Coincidentally, the same day it arrived, I got invited for a campus interview! The interview date isn’t set yet but I’m so excited because it’s my first actual campus interview.

    2. periwinkle*

      Good luck with the interview!

      Calvin Klein plus-sized career wear is a new favorite. I bought a CK gray-on-gray shift dress for an important interview and felt invincible! (got the job, too)

      1. Callie*

        I’m going to have to look into more CK stuff. It’s one of the better attempts at plus size professional clothing, ie, not cut like a giant garbage bag!

  47. NewTraveler*

    I’ll be traveling to Muscat, Oman for business in the next few weeks. Has anyone been there and have suggestions about things to do, or things I should watch out for? I’m female, and will be traveling by myself, although I am meeting up with colleagues for a conference while I’m there.

  48. Vanishing Girl*

    I saw some mention of career counselors in the open thread last week, but was too late to reply. My partner (PhD in Philosophy) wants to find other paths besides the dismal job market of academia, but isn’t sure where to look or even start building skills. He’s mentioned he wants to see a career counselor, but doesn’t know how to start finding one.

    Does anyone have recommendations for career counselors that have experience with academia and/or getting out of the academia-is-the-only-way mindset?

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      Is your partner a member of VersatilePhD.com? There are several career counselors who post there and discussions about career counseling in the forums. If not, some PhD institutions make subscriptions available for alumni.

    2. Callie*

      The Professor Is In is super expensive but she is very, very good. She is blunt and honest and one of her specialties is post-ac careers. She also has a lot of advice on her website and she has a book that’s like $9 on Amazon with lots of advice for jobs inside and outside academia.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Second The Professor is In. The book is very practical and inspiring. (in a non-woo woo sense) I have bought more than a few for my academic tenure track comrades.

          1. JaneB*

            The organisation vitae is mostly aimed at people in the gap between PhD and academic, but does have materials on searching for ‘alt-ac’ careers, and lots of good advice on what you can do whilst searching to develop appropriate competencies

  49. SepalsOnAFlower*

    Trying to solve a work project: does anyone have any recommendations for simulation software to help analyze the impact of installing a turnstile in a busy lobby? Or helping analyze foot traffic if something is built in the way that will impact the foot traffic?

    1. AnotherFed*

      Excel, first. That sounds like a pretty simple discrete event simulation, especially if all you’re trying to do is get a feel for how long the line will backup at the turnstile or how long people will have to wait in line.

      This sounds very similar to a classic homework question in modeling and sim, so you’ll probably be able to find example solutions to apply no matter what tool you want to use.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        This sounds exactly like some of the homework questions I had to do in my modeling and simulation class, so I think AnotherFed’s suggestion of looking for examples online (particularly for solutions in Excel) is right on.

        If you’re having trouble finding something to use as a reference, you could try something like SimQuick, which helps automate the process in Excel and simplify the inputs.

        1. SepalsOnAFlower*

          I don’t think that would work but thanks for the suggestions. We’re trying to figure out what would happen if we place the turnstyle in this spot vs this spot so I think Excel would be too linear of a process. And we want to buy software where we can upload floor plans and see where the traffic jam would happen.

          1. AnonAnalyst*

            Sorry about that! I think there might still be a way to do that with an Excel model minus the visualization component, but this type of model (clearly) isn’t something I typically create so I can’t offer any other suggestions. Hopefully others with more knowledge will be able to offer better ideas!

          2. AnotherFed*

            I think you can still do Excel, but you need someone who has the background to do the pathing (particularly turning it into equations). I’d probably use a random gas model, under the assumption that people are about as rational, especially when getting in the way of other people, but YMMV. The big deal is to work out what measurable things you want to get out of the model/sim. Then you structure your model to give you that data. A model can’t tell you which option is better, it can only tell you the specific metrics you ask it for.

          3. Jules the First*

            We use Golaem for Maya, since we’re already running Maya and we don’t need a ton of mathematics. When we do need it 100% accurate, we outsource to someone with Pedestrian Dynamics or Oasys MassMotion (the latter does a 30-day free trial, but will need AutoCAD or Rhino skillz to get maximum benefit)

  50. Rat Racer*

    An open letter/rant to the IM abusers at my company:

    If someone is in a meeting, please do not ping unless you have a question that is urgent – as in, if you don’t get an answer within the next 30 minutes, you will miss a critical deadline. Please do not ping to ask for an opinion about a strategic issue that requires a 30 minute phone conversation.

    If you initiate an IM conversation, it’s on you to keep it going. Please don’t ping me with “hello,” and then let five minutes lapse after I respond “Hi, what’s up?”

    And finally, please don’t use pink italic font – it’s hard to read.

    Phew – now I feel better…

    1. Sadsack*

      I sometimes IM people marked busy if the person’s calendar is fully booked and there’s no other open time anyway. Sorry! Many times people are marked busy who are actually not because their meetings ended early. If you tell me it isn’t a good time, that’s cool.

      1. Rat Racer*

        If you’re trying to hit a deadline, I think that’s totally legit. And I’m certainly not in a position to make up hard and fast rules for everybody; however, in my experience, there are some people who choose to use IM for questions that could be answered over email, and it’s very annoying.

    3. Violet_04*

      I never IM someone if they show “in a meeting”. Sometimes I’ll ping someone with a busy status if I have a quick question. Yes, I hate it when I get questions via IM that are really better suited to email. Sometimes I’ll just tell the person to email me so I can take the time to research their question and get back to them.

      1. Violet_04*

        Oh, and how could I forget this one? The IM that comes in asking me to respond to an email you sent me just a few minutes ago. At least that’s better than the person who used to stop by my desk to explain in person the email she sent a few minutes ago.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I get a lot of IMs from people whose status says “in a meeting,” so I’m usually pretty lax about initiating those conversations, too. I suspect a lot of the time these coworkers are actually watching a boring webinar or have forgotten to switch their status back to “available.” But asking for an opinion about a strategic issue that really should involve a phone call? Yeah, that’s annoying.

    5. Ife*

      The people who initiate an IM and then seemingly run away from their computer drive me nuts! It’s like when you miss a call and immediately call the person back, only to get voicemail.

    6. Glod Glodsson*

      This is one of my biggest pet peeves! About 25% of my coworkers just ping me with ‘hi’ and nothing else until I recognize that they said hi. What’s even worse is that some of them follow up with asking me how I am without getting to the point. Maybe I’m too task oriented, but I don’t really want to spend 5 minutes IM-ing about the weather when you just want to know if I can help you with a planning bottleneck.

      1. Thinking out loud*

        I used to work at a software company where we regularly had clients connected to our computers remotely. It was a standing rule that if you IM’d someone, you said “hi” and waited for them to respond to be sure that no one else was watching their screen. Maybe your coworkers are using “hi” in the same way as a check on whether it’s an okay to talk?

    8. catsAreCool*

      And maybe write out your question instead of saying “Hi” and making me wait while you type. It’s hard to get any work done in that time between the Hi and the question, and the pause is usually long enough to be annoying.

  51. Eager Job Seeker*

    So I finally heard back from the PAC that blew me off and I didn’t get the position. They said it went to an internal candidate. Obviously this can vary a bit, but can anyone speak to a good application to interview rate?

    2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I would talk to others in your industry who are also job hunting, if possible.

      As someone who is job hunting in a field where there is A LOT of competition, but the size of the competition pool can vary significantly based on the position and the area, I would say the application to interview rate could range anywhere from 25:1 to 100:1, depending on so many different factors. For example, there are probably fewer applicants to a position in a remote North Dakota town, versus a job in San Francisco.

  52. Carla*

    How are people staying sane at work during election season? This is my first time working in an office during an election season like this one. I love talking politics but I stay away from the topic at work for obvious reasons but I do like to put in my 2 cents if the topic comes up. I won’t tell them who I’m voting for and who I disagree with but I will comment on things like – it was funny that Ben Carson asked for someone to attack him at one of the debates. One of my coworkers who I actually like said that she couldn’t wait for Trump to be president so her could get rid of the immigrant criminals in the country. I’m a second generation immigrant and I was very bothered by that but didn’t say anything. Do you stay away from the topic completely?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think you should free to say, “Eeeww, I really disagree, but let’s not talk politics so that we retain our ability to work together.” (I’d also stop commenting about stuff like the Ben Carson thing though, because you’re sort of inviting the discussion at that point.)

    2. Florida*

      Don’t engage with people who see the world totally differently than you do. If someone says that she can’t wait for Trump to be president so we can get rid of immigrants, it is so tempting to respond and tell her that all immigrants aren’t criminals, etc. etc. Instead just say something like, “That’s an interesting point of view.” or something that is equally meaningless. If she asks hat you think, don’t engage either.

      As fascinating as this election has been, there really isn’t any good side of discussing politics at work. The one exception is if it affects your business. For example, if you work in a real estate office, you can discuss the latest planning board meeting. Or if you work at an immigration law office, you can discuss Trump’s views on immigration, but not his views on women or guns or anything else.

    4. Ife*

      Sigh. I was at the on-site gym yesterday and one of my coworkers (huge building, had never seen him before) came in and turned on Fox news. When the TV couldn’t get a signal, he switched to CSPAN and it was some kind of speech by Mitt Romney (possibly about Trump? I kept my headphones on full volume because I did not want to hear anything about politics). I feel like it should be an unwritten rule that you do not set the shared TV to politics when there are other people around!

      As for coping strategies, definitely do not engage. My usual strategy is to pretend to know as little as possible so they don’t have anything to latch onto (“I didn’t hear about that/That’s frustrating/I can see why that upsets you”), or if it’s something that hits too close (like the immigrant issue might for you?), I just say something noncommittal like, “Oh,” and remove myself from the conversation. Physically remove myself if possible.

    5. BRR*

      I will always try and stay away. You really have to keep a hard line though. With the Ben Carson thing, it will come off to some people as it’s ok to talk about. I usually go with something like “I follow the rule of not discussing politics or religion at work.” If it’s a more harsh political comment like your coworker, I would probably be more direct and ask them to not discuss it again.

      1. Windchime*

        We don’t really have a choice, we just have to deal with it. I just make it a point to stay away from anything political except if it’s *real* news (not infotainment) and I even limit the real news. It’s exhausting and depressing. I’m just glad I don’t have a landline any longer; when I did, I would come home from work to find a half-dozen messages on the voicemail and they were all political messages.

  53. anon for this*

    Let’s talk salary – namely beginning salary. What did you make when you were starting out in your first office job? I ask because I don’t know if I’m making good or even decent money at my first job, and it’s hard to get accurate data (I’m Canadian, but would be interested in hearing from other countries for sure). As a basis, I’m 27 and make about $36,000 a year as an admin.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      There are other factors to consider, though—what are your responsibilities as an admin, how big is your organization, what’s the cost of living like in your city/town?

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Definitely. That’s a good salary for an admin here–average range for jobs below executive assistants (including receptionists) is roughly $13,000–30,000. The most I made before I got this job was around $22,000. I would have starved to death on that if I lived in a larger city, even in this Midwestern state.

          1. Doriana Gray*

            Yeah, I fell somewhere in that range as an Office Assistant working at a for-profit school as my first post-undergrad job. It was technically a part time gig through a staffing agency that paid $8/hr. After four weeks of working there, I was hired onto the company and promoted to a non-admin role. My pay was something like $13.49/hr – this was in late 2010.

            I was only in that job for four months before my position was (thankfully) eliminated, and I then began working at a law firm, which hiring managers since have considered my first “real” post-grad job, making $31,241.60/year. This was in 2011 and in the Midwest where the cost of living is cheaper.

      2. Rat Racer*

        And year – don’t forget year! I could tell you my starting salary in Washington DC back in 1999, but that’s meaningless against the wages people make in that market today. When my dad, who was a corporate litigator until he retired last year, got his first job as an associate in a San Francisco law firm in 1972 after graduating Magna cum Laude from Harvard) earned $6,300 year! Just threw that in because it boggles my mind, although I’m sure that was a totally respectable salary back then.

        1. Triangle Pose*

          Yep I’ll bet it was respectable, and I am SURE that Harvard Law charged way less back then. When law firm partners complain that junior associates make “so much” and harp on how little they made when they started, I always have to fight asking them what law school cost back then and how much in loans on average law student had to take out to pay for law school.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This is really hard to ascertain in a vacuum. Where do you work, what size office, what’s the market rate in your area for your role? Are you more secretarial/reception, or are your duties more project-management or executive assistant focused? Alison posted a great open thread a while back about salaries. That might be a good place for you to start to get an idea of what is similar to what you do/where you work. Link to follow.

    3. Hey Arnold*

      I made 40k at my first post grad school job. This was about 5 years ago with a well known non-profit. Very large downtown city. USA.

    4. anonanonanon*

      This really depends based on industry and location, but I made $17,000 after taxes in 2008 for a small 5 person doctor’s office job (no healthcare either) and then $24,000 after taxes in my first entry level 10K+ employee corporate office job in 2010 in a big East Coast city. Those were not good times.

    5. QA Lady*

      In the Vancouver, BC suburbs I made $10/hour for part time work from 2003-2005 as an admin in a small business (me plus the owner).

      I moved to Edmonton mid-2005 and got full time work at about $13.50/hour and then bumped to $14.50/hour doing admin work but more related to my degree (but still entry level).

    6. Rabbit*

      My first “real” job (meaning not in retail) was $35k in LA, basically entry-level. For the hours, it was sh*t, but it was OK.

    7. Undercover*

      I am pretty similar to you. Canadian, Administrative Assistant (Medical though), 27 years old. As for a narrower idea I’m in Ontario in a fairly large city but, not Toronto.

      I started at $24.50/hr plus benefits in 2013 approx. $45,000 a year based on a 35 hour work week. Currently making $26/hr plus benefits.

      Wage varies a lot though, I was lucky enough to be employed by the University/Teaching Hospital. Others I graduated with are in community practices and a few years out are still barely making more than minimum wage.

    8. Felicia*

      It really depends on what part of Canada, and what type of company. In the Toronto area, for a non profit, and for an admin job, that’s about average. It’s what I made when I started my first office job just over a year in a half ago in Toronto, and my friends who all gravitated towards non profits made the same.

      In other parts of Canada, and in other types of companies, it’s likely different.

    9. Jen*

      Boston area. Started making 27k a year working in a research lab at 22. That was a decade ago and my salary has changed substantially after an additional degree and career change.

      1. Jen*

        University research lab…so, nonprofit. The next company I worked for (private sector) paid the receptionist, an entry Level role, 40k. That was approx 2009.

        1. Bibliovore*

          First “real job” not retail clerk. non-profit, museum manager. 12,500. 1985 Philadelphia.

    10. Mkb*

      I started at $40k in 2007 at my first post college office job in Connecticut. It was a project management type role in market research.

    11. RevengeoftheBirds*

      I’m Canadian (Vancouver) and recently finished my masters.

      My first job was 43,000 (not degree related) and then I moved into the 60’s (degree related) when I found a job in my specialization.

      I specialize in a particular area of human resources though and my masters is tailored to this area.

  54. themmases*

    My thing is related to grad school but I think job seekers will be able to relate too.

    My PhD application process confirmed for me that the best possible fit is where I already am and I should stay. However I applied to some “reach for the stars” type places and other programs I was very interested in just in case. I wrote about my transcript being lost en route to my other favorite program a couple weeks ago (they were very nice but didn’t reconsider), and I got responses from the other programs today. The decision I was going to make anyway, to stay at my current program, has been made for me. I hate that feeling!

    I know I have nothing to be embarrassed about because I was told by a top program that they loved my application but weren’t sure they could match me with a mentor. A technical skill I mastered for my MS thesis is not a strength of their department. However, I still *am* a little embarrassed and I’m glad it’s Friday so I can have a glass of wine tonight and wait until Monday to tell the people who recommended me.

    Also glad Friday is my work from home day so I can be a little bratty in private about getting good news, just not dream news.

    1. SophieChotek*

      So…if I read your comment — you are in a Ph.D. program, you had a couple other programs you were interested in (one which refused to consider you because transcripts were lost, and another becuase they didn’t think they had the right mentor/faculty advisor for you).

      Congrats on getting accepted to a Ph.D program! That’s great news no matter what.

      Regarding not having a good mentor — that can so make or break your job search later; good mentors can help you get a job. I’m from the humanities, so I am not totally sure I agree with the mentor not an expert — many of my colleagues of course were more expert in their dissertation topic than their advisor–but their advisor could still help the shape/mold their dissertation

      Congrats — enjoy the wine and the weekend!

    2. Anonsie*

      I’m sorry, that sucks. I got rejected to every grad program I applied to this year after spending the last three years working ~70 hours a week in a FT job and doing all my prereqs half time, and I’ve been pouting about it like an angry 12 year old for a couple of weeks now. Indulge the brat a bit.

      The absolute worst part of this process is having to update the people who wrote me letters/gave me other coaching through this process about it. Though if I had gotten in anywhere at all it would not have been a bummer conversation for everyone– just me.

  55. LawCat*

    One year ago I switched teams at my current organization. I have been with the organization for 4 years. My current manager is awesome. One of my old managers, who was not happy about me not taking certain work with me to my new team and who is micromanagey, passive aggressive, and just not someone I enjoyed working for, has been in an acting more senior role (above my current manager) for months. When that occurred, it made me nervous. Since old manager been in that role, he has been able to foist work upon me without regard to what current manager wants. The longer old manager is in the role, the more anxious I get that it will become permanent and I will de facto be made to work for old manager.

    In under a year, I will be eligible to apply for promotion. I am in government and eligibility for promotion is strictly when you have a certain level of experience regardless of whether I switch to another another government organization. I am torn between applying out at my current level. On the one hand, the uncertainty is giving me anxiety and making me feel restless. On the other hand, if I got another job at my current level at another organization, would it look very “job hoppy” if I were there for 8 months and then started applying for promotions, which could be with other organizations?

    I don’t want to kill my hopes of getting a promotion as soon as possible after I am eligible, but I also don’t want to feel anxious and uncertain about where I work. Suggestions/advice?

    1. NJ Anon*

      If things are working out in general, try not to stress and stick it out until you are eligible. You may be getting nervous for no reason.

  56. HeyNonnyNonny*

    Microsoft Word!

    The Excel tricks thread a while back was so amazing, and I don’t think I’ve seen one for Word. So, what are you favorite Word tricks?

    Mine:
    If you want to bring in another user’s tracked changes without merging the entire document, turn Tracking OFF in both docs, then just copy/paste the section you want into your working doc. The changes they made will remain tracked to them, and separate from any other tracked changes in your working doc. This was life-changing to find out!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Compare Documents. It’s not much of a trick, I suppose, but I find lots of people don’t even know that it exists, and I use it all the time to find the differences between two versions of the same document.

      2. Anonsie*

        I learned about this in college when a professor straight up told us about it when he was making us do serial revisions of manuscripts. He told us he’ll take our previous draft and do a compare document to the one we turned in he could see exactly what was changed.

        I think someone’s hand shot up to ask what that was and how you used it and we all wrote it down, haha.

    2. MaryMary*

      The paragraph marks button (I think some people call it formatting marks). It looks like a backwards P. If you click it, it shows all the “invisible” things in your document, like spacing, tabs, page breaks, columns, tables, etc. It’s invaluable when you can’t figure out why your paragraph is mysteriously stopping in the middle of the page, or how the previous user managed to format the text that certain way.

        2. Escalating Eris*

          I used to LOVE WordPerfect. It did exactly what you told it to, no more and no less. There was none of this “You look like you’re typing a letter. Would you like me to insert some unnecessary numbered lists and rogue capitalisation?” business with WordPerfect.

      3. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Yes! THE BEST way to find mysterious section breaks that are making everything terrible.

        1. linguaignota*

          Another great way to find mysterious section breaks is to use the Find/Replace function. If you click “Advanced Find” or “Replace,” there is a drop-down menu where you can select formatting marks, including section breaks. Then you can either delete them by hand or replace them with whatever your hear desires.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My favorite trick is right-clicking on a style and using “Update [style] to match selection”. I get SO many documents where the “title” is body text, bolded, 24-point font. ARGH! It’s not accessible, it’s generally not convertible (to a PDF or HTML) without losing the style. USE THE STYLES, PEOPLE!

      So this trick not only lets me easily add styles where they should be, if there are frequent 16-point bolded lines and I turn one of them into Heading 2, Word will make ALL identical lines Heading 2!

      Oh, also, the automated Table of Contents rocks! I get so pissed when people manually create a TOC, and then a page gets added or removed, and I’m supposed to renumber the whole table?? (Some of the documents I work on, the TOC can extend 4-5 pages or more.) Screw that, I just replace it with an automated TOC…which, IF you’ve used the built-in Heading styles, can be generated automatically in seconds!

      1. LQ*

        I’m with you 1092741730597810% on all of them except the middle thing. WHAT!? What sorcery is this? It doesn’t do this with my documents, even if there are 10 16pt bolded lines I have to go through and update all of them to say H2. How do I make that automagic? Because that is pure sorcery and I love it.

        (So much yes to TOCs. Why do people make things hard, so very very hard?)

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          I think it happens when they’re all the same position and font…it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I know it’s happened! I swear!

          OK, it’s been a while, I’m not too sure about that part, but these documents are so huge, I was sure I had not had to go through and touch EVERY “header” to update them.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            The automated TOC is great but when it messes up, it can be REALLY hard to figure out what happened. I have had to dig into its formatting and boy was that a PITA, especially with the tab stops. >_<

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Oh man, I really need to get better at styles so that I can do this with my 100-page documents that no one formats consistently!

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Just start with the built-in styles, then start customizing, that’s usually the easiest way. And then if you make sure ALL the chapter headers are actually Header 1, it’s very easy to change Header 1 so that ALL THE CHAPTER HEADERS CHANGE APPEARANCE! I love that!

        2. Kelly L.*

          Oh, man, the Frankendocuments we have around here. They haven’t so much been written as they’ve accreted. This part over here’s from 1998, the next section is from 2003, no one remembers who wrote either and they’re in wildly different formatting and probably the content’s wrong too…

          2. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Yesss! It’s like cleaning the layers in a teenager’s bedroom, or playing Katamari Damacy with all the weird sections mashed together…

    4. themmases*

      Styles and style references.

      I learned about them so I could, say, make the name of the current section of a document print at the bottom of the page. It turns out you do this by referencing the style the header is in, so it’s a great reason to create styles for your documents– in addition to saving time compared to manually formatting everything. Add a field to a header or footer, set the type to be “StyleRef”, and then edit the field to tell it what text style to point to.

      Style references can also be used to create an automatic table of contents. You can even create new table styles which is great for me because I create a lot of reports that are supposed to have my research center’s branding/colors throughout.

      Related to that, it is worth the time to create new color themes in Word or Power Point. My university has official templates, but especially for Power Point they can be really busy (I even got marked down on a class presentation for design when I used one!). A good alternative is to define a new color theme that uses your organization’s custom colors. You’ll be able to apply the theme to any template you want, including Power Point themes, and graphs and other visual elements will automatically use the theme colors with no extra effort from you.

    6. Triangle Pose*

      Copy formatting paste formatting shortcut!

      I didn’t even know this was a thing until someone showed me. I used to always struggle to get the formatting of something right, or switch back and forth between formatting to look just like another section, until someone showed me that you can just highlight the text you want it to look like, hit Ctrl+Shift+C, highlight the text you want to change and hit Ctrl+Shift+V!

      It has changed my life!

      2. Florida*

        You can also use the button that looks like a yellow paintbrush to do this. Highlight the first text. Click the yellow paintbrush. Then highlight the second text. The second part will change to the same formatting as the first.

        1. Observer*

          You don’t even need to highlight the origin text. Just make sure your cursor is in the correct section.

    7. BRR*

      Paste and match destination format. If you right click it’s an option. It automatically takes text and matches the formatting you have. This way you don’t have to format paint.

    8. katamia*

      Alt + I + S to bring up the symbol table.

      I also add a lot of my common typos to the autocorrect dictionary (my n key on this kepboard is less responsive than the others, so I tend to leave a lot of n’s out of words–do’t instead of don’t and so on) so I don’t have to go back through and fix them later. I’ll also add words with more obscure accent marks (like ś and ā) to the autocorrect dictionary.

    9. Mimmy*

      This thread makes me realize that I know WAY less about Microsoft Word than I’m willing to admit. Nothing ever seems to work right, so I never bothered trying to learn styles and all that other fancy stuff :/

      1. katamia*

        I actually hate styles. Every time I’ve dealt with a file someone else created that used styles, that file was always a huge mess. I’d have to copy and paste everything into Notepad to strip everything out and then reformat everything manually. I don’t know if the people whose files I’ve worked with have just been especially inept or if I have absurdly high standards or what, but I am definitely not a fan.

        1. mander*

          They probably didn’t know how to use them properly. Styles are essential, IMHO. At least in long documents.

    10. Cath in Canada*

      Shift-F3 to toggle case (upper, lower, sentence) – not specific to Word, but more useful there than anywhere else
      Styles and automated TOCs
      Find and replace to remove double spacing (I’ve always thought this was obvious, but I’ve talked to a few people who’ve been astonished that you can do this with F&R)
      Shift-F7 thesaurus shortcut

      1. Observer*

        Find and replace to strip out or correct almost any error or anomaly in a file. I’ve used this for text files that have hard returns at the end of each line (rather than just at paragraph end), hard page breaks. “null” characters (usually in tabular material), or various formatting marks.

        You wouldn’t think some of this stuff would still happen, but I still regularly get this issue coming up. And, this also works in Excel.

    11. oranges & lemons*

      CTRL-F3, then CTRL-Shift-F3 to move text to a new document and preserve change tracking. It does cut rather than copy the text by default, so you have to be careful not to delete anything from your source document by accident. But this is great if you work with large documents with lots of tracked changes.

  57. CMT*

    Thoughts on moving from state government to something in the private sector? I’m in Bitch Eating Crackers mode with everything to do with my current job, so I can’t tell if I really want to change, or if I’m just letting frustration get to me. I’m in my first post-grad school job, so I’m worried I’ll look flaky if I go apply for something totally different.

    3. CM*

      State gov here, it seems totally common to move back and forth between public and private sectors. When you get tired of being poor, you go to the private sector. When you get tired of not having a life, you go back to the public sector. :)

      1. CMT*

        That’s good to hear! I can easily see myself switching between those two mind sets over the course of a career.

  58. MeridaAnn*

    We have a “fun” situation at work today – a notice regarding a website some of us use for training was sent out to about 700 people at all the different branches of my work and it has blown up into a ridiculous “Reply All” storm. In the last 5 hours, I have received 130 reply all emails on this same subject. About 5% were people actually responding to the initial email, about 80% saying either “remove me from this list” or “everyone stop hitting reply all”.

    Then, on top of all that, the remainder have been from people who think that they’re being “funny” – posts like “Am I the only one entertained by all this drama?” and “Hey anyone want some donuts? and even “Go [various spots teams]!” Four of the emails (still sent to all 700 people) actually involved someone starting a game of Tic-Tac-Toe and others responding. Seriously?! That is so unprofessional and rude!

    Email #130 was finally someone from an Information Security Officer at one of the locations, citing the handbook and telling people officially to cut it out, so hopefully that’s the end of it, but the whole thing is just incredibly obnoxious. The “Reply All” button can be a dangerous tool and must be used responsibly, or not at all!

    1. evilintraining*

      Yikes! Sometimes I really hate that button! This gets sort of bad where I work, but sometimes I think the sender is to blame. I wish, in some cases, people would email just a couple of appropriate teams, instead of the full staff. I doubt that an accounting person would care much about where certain clinic items are kept, but whatever. But getting a bunch of “reply all” emails with ideas on that is a real distraction that I don’t need.

    2. Florida*

      I absolutely hate Reply All.
      The benefits of it do not make up for the problems with it.

    3. Ama*

      There are two functions no current email program has that I wish someone would build in:

      -The ability to unsubscribe from an email chain (I know Gmail and some other programs have “mute conversation” but I don’t want to even receive the emails when they get as bad as you describe above.)

      -The ability to group bcc’s so I can bcc a large group of executives and their assistants (thus eliminating the reply all problem) but let each individual executive/assistant pair see that the other has been cc’d. Right now I have to choose between a potential reply all disaster and having three or four assistants email me to check which of the executives they assist the email applies to.

    4. Crissy from HR*

      Tangiently related: my office has a white elephant holiday party with prize raffles. Last year, one of the prizes was a 4 inch binder of all of the All Staff/Reply All responses that were declared useless/dumb.

      My personal favorite? An employee was chummy with our Events Manager, who sent an all staff email about our office party. His response? “Can’t make it, still have the runs.”

      I still snicker internally whenever I see him walking towards our bathroom.

      1. april ludgate*

        Someone here once sent an email to the entire campus detailing his struggles with kidney stones…

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, this happened at my work (not this bad thank goodness), and the president actually replied “STOP USING REPLY ALL!”

      I mark those Ignore and they go to the bye-bye folder.

    6. LibrarianJ*

      My institution recently sent out a message explicitly encouraging anyone who receives mass e-mails to use “Reply All,” complete with instructions on how to set up our e-mail client to default to it. Sigh.

    7. CM*

      OK, yes it’s obnoxious, but… the Tic-Tac-Toe emails did make me laugh.
      I just ignore reply alls like that. They don’t happen that often.

    9. martinij*

      If you have Outlook, you should select the “Show as Conversations” settings, under the View tab, as well as turn off your notifications. That way, when you hit Delete you can do so once vs. 100+ times!

  59. Alternative*

    Unfortunately, I am job seeking again, after being in my current position for only 9 months, because my employer is closing our local office. So our entire division is being laid off this coming June. I have been planning to explain this in my cover letter.

    Do you all think that would be the best way to handle it? I was thinking that just being straightforward about the situation was best, so employers aren’t wondering why I am looking again so soon. Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I think in this case it might be worth it, but keep it to kind of a throwaway “Due to my division’s recent closure” style mention rather than letting it take up more space.

      1. BRR*

        I like this and it’s how I would do it. Try and mention it in passing so it explains why you’re looking but not make it a big point.

  60. Dr. Johnny Fever*

    AWESOME NEWS!

    I got a new job!

    Last week, I posted 4 applications, got 2 bites. Come Monday, I had the other two.

    Two recruiters reached out to me for interviews, one scheduled, the other pending. I interviewed on Weds for a plum role, lateral move, and it’s a complete click – panel interview, including a former colleague who would be a peer.

    Yesterday, they presented me an offer. I was shocked! I asked for a higher amount and a day to think, that I had another interview pending, and I really didn’t expect everything to happen so quickly. They said OK.

    I call the other recruiter to find out my app status and discover that the position was filled. I wasn’t surprised – it was my stretch role and highly coveted. I go home, tell my husband the news, and we toast to good luck!

    This morning, a new offer comes in – double my ask if I drop the other opportunity and say yes today.

    So I did.

    I just turned an insulting raise and determination to leave into a much higher raise and a new job in two weeks.

    What the hell just happened here?!? :D

    9. Ama*

      High five!

      This is kind of what happened to me — it’s funny how even when you know your work is being undervalued, it can still be a shock to find someone who sees your proper worth.

  61. Another Engineer*

    I’m one of the many affected by oil prices. Last February I was laid off and didn’t find work until November. I’m still looking as this position is rather underpaid, overworked, and it’s a rather toxic environment.

    The problem is I don’t have much to add to my resume from this position. Let’s say it’s a Teapot Engineer role, but about 85% of the work would fit under more of a Teapot Drafter role. My degrees are tagentially related, say Kitchen Mechanics and Aero Teapots. Most of the work I’ve done is CAD modeling and cleaning up old designs, but zero original design. I was basically hired under the impression that this was a Teapot Design Engineer position (which I’d love) and it’s everything but.

    How do I polish up my resume when my current role isn’t really related to what I want to be doing (and what I was doing before the lay off)?

    1. Development Professional*

      Since you haven’t been there very long, I don’t think it would be a problem to just give less real estate on your resume to your current role, and more to your previous role that contains what you want to be doing. If your most relevant experience is from your previous role anyway, that’s not going to look weird. So like 3 bullets under your current job and 5 under your last job or whatever makes sense.

    2. Not really anon*

      Hi – I am also in oil & gas – Right now I only know of a possible Control Systems position. I am on the LinkedIn AAM group. My last name is Mirza if you want to connect.

  62. hola soy milk*

    I hope this is work related enough…but basically I have recently had issues when my spouse travels for work. I don’t want to feel this way anymore.

    My spouse is loyal to a fault, so that’s not the problem. I just worry about everything. It’s hard to explain. I’m just momentarily filled with dread at times while spouse is gone. It’s embarrassing to feel this way.
    [I’d like to add that I do have other friends and family and hobbies and whatnot, so spouse and I are not unhealthily attached to each other or anything.]

    I travel for work about once a month, but when I’m gone I am in frequent communication with my spouse because that’s what I like to do. That is not spouse’s MO and I don’t think it would be fair to spouse to also expect them to do the same thing for me all the time. I’m trying to find a happy medium.

    Any advice as to what I can say to myself to calm my nerves? Other helpful advice? I know this will pass, but in the meantime it feels awful. This is very painful for me to admit, so thanks in advance for any suggestions.

    1. Lies, damn lies, and...*

      We typically do not connect much when traveling, but maybe you can set some ground rules for you guys when your spouse travels – please reply to my texts before you go to bed, if I want to call I’ll check first that you’re not at dinner with colleagues via text, I’ll only call during day if it’s an emergency.

    2. fposte*

      It can be really destabilizing to be missing a key piece of your life. But it does sound to me like your level of distress is higher than it needs to be, so here are two things that come to mind. 1) figure out what you *are* willing to ask your spouse that might help and then ask it (“Spouse, I feel really empty when you’re gone. Could we institute a nightly phone call?”); 2) consider talking to a therapist to see if you can get some cognitive tips on self-soothing.

    3. TheLazyB*

      Did I post in my sleep?!

      It’s really, really hard. I have no suggestions except for being really clear with your spouse that you know it’s your own issue and that it’s nothing to do with trust.

      Do you suffer fom anxiety? Since childhood I’ve always been terrified if loved ones are even a little late back. I am better than I used to be but it’s still scary.

    4. ThatGirl*

      A) Get spouse to agree to a certain amount of communication per day that’s agreeable to both of you

      B) Keep yourself busy while they are gone

      C) If you are truly filled with dread and having trouble managing it, consider seeing a therapist for a few sessions

    5. AnonForThis*

      If your spouse is gone a lot, you might want to check out some of the forums and online resources for military spouses – that’s a whole community of people who have to figure out how to deal with lots of spouse travel (and many assignments will be lots of short travel rather than long deployments).

    6. LQ*

      It isn’t quite the same but can you have things that are presets or other kinds of things. If it is I miss the sound of Spouse’s voice then having them record a short message can be nice to listen to at night. Or having some love notes to reread. Can you reach out (an email or voice message about what your day was) even if you don’t get a long response getting a “thank you for sharing your day” can be nice?

    7. anon968*

      keep busy, can you pick up a new hobby or skill as that may make you feel more fulfilled? or make sure you get some exercise?

      it’s not unreasonable to ask for a compromise on communication, that doesn’t have to be a lot, but it could just be a text at lunch and a 10 minute chat before bed.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Times when I have been over come by dread that had little basis were also times when I was eating crappy, getting dehydrated and so on. Take a look at your habits when your other half leaves. Are you eating pizzas for three meals a day, when you ordinarily eat better? How’s the rest going? Do you stay up later and then wonder why you only got 4 hours sleep? Nothing like sleep loss to exasperate normal feelings. I know when my spouse went a way it was extra stress for me for many reasons. Take a look at some of your reasons. Let’s say you decide that you worry about your car breaking down. Okay, make a plan for what you will do if the car breaks while your spouse is away. Now, what else? Then you decide you are worried about the furnace. These are legit concerns. Make a plan. What will you do if the furnace breaks while spouse is gone.
      Keep going like this until you have gotten a plan for each of your major concerns.

      There’s a subtle message here too, by working through this stuff you are affirming, “YES! I will take care of ME while spouse is gone.” And sometimes we have to make these affirmations, it’s not really unusual.

    9. Rebecca in Dallas*

      No advice other than what the others have suggested already, but I just wanted to say I feel your pain! I’m already an anxious person, so it feels hard to have my usual routine messed up. What’s worse is that when my husband travels for work, they go out to an area that has very sparce reception, so even though he is normally good about checking in, he usually can’t.

      So you’re not alone! And it’s not out of bounds for you to ask him to check in at certain times, maybe just a quick text when he arrives and a phone call before he turns in for the night. That’s not unreasonable and should help ease your mind a little.

    10. BRR*

      My now spouse and I were in a similar situation when we started dating. Our solution was before trips we would figure out when we could talk. Like hey I can’t monday night but tuesday night we can. I think if you tell your spouse you would like to talk more when they’re away it’s reasonable as long as you don’t turn them into the person who is always texting. Now we’re the opposite and I’m more silent. I learned to appreciate the quiet time.

  63. LizB*

    I seriously need to vent about my manager, who is driving me BONKERS. I am becoming more and more convinced that he has absolutely no idea what he’s doing. He’s completely oblivious to things that are 100% normal for our field and also 100% common sense even if you’re not involved in the field. He apparently has the memory capacity of a goldfish, so I end up having the same conversations with him over and over again. His reading comprehension and attention to detail are nil — he constantly misspells client names in official documentation and misses or misunderstands key parts of emails that are at most four sentences. He’s asked us to record various project updates in two different places because he doesn’t understand how to work the “official” recording system, and then doesn’t seem to check either of them because he’ll ask me for information that is updated in both places, AND that I’ve emailed him about, AND that I’ve told him about verbally. He moves internal meetings around willy-nilly to suit his schedule, completely disregarding important external meetings that we have scheduled (sometimes weeks in advance) and then gets annoyed when we can’t make the new internal meeting because of the conflict. He says he doesn’t want to micromanage, but is constantly texting us for updates on non-time-sensitive things, calling us to remind us about recurring meetings that have been on our calendars for months, and giving us detailed instructions on how to format spreadsheets that only we are going to be using. He has a hard time making really basic decisions, and will often try to passive-aggressively pass them off to us — not directly asking us for input, but repeating whatever the problem is over and over until we just tell him what we think he should do. If something goes even mildly wrong, he gets visibly and audibly upset, with lots of “Oh man, oh no” and “This is bad, this is really a problem” and putting his head in his hands and sighing loudly. The man is a disaster, and I find myself taking lots of deep breaths before responding to his messages and psyching myself up for meetings.

    The kicker, announced in our team check-in this week: he has volunteered to be a campaign manager for a local politician on top of his full-time job with our organization. CAMPAIGN MANAGER. That’s like a job and half all by itself! And requires a ton of attention to detail! How in the world does that decision make any sense?!

    Aside from him, I love my coworkers, I love my organization, and I love the work I’m doing, so I’m not leaving this job any time soon. But I so wish I had someone halfway competent managing me.

    1. Hopeless Librarian*

      I can identify so much! My manager doesn’t just go “Oh man, oh no” though she swears a blue streak. She sends us instructions that are incomprehensible gibberish most of the time. I don’t know what to do.

      1. LizB*

        My manager hates swearing, to the point where he’ll make a disgusted face if someone says “hell.” Thankfully I’ve worked with kids for years and know how to turn my language down so the strongest words in my vocabulary are “heck” and “darn.”

    3. stressfulfriends*

      wow, are you my coworker? Because this sounds like my boss. He is not suited for the position he is in, but there it is. I frankly tell him which decisions he should make, and have recently started to prewrite emails to clients for him. I learned over the years he is a visual learner, which means he will not even try to comprehend written text if there is a picture to look at nearby. Misunderstood written information is as frequent as him phrasing stuff in words that are similar to the intended meaning but end up misunderstood/insulting.
      The memory bit could be a strategy though, this I have experienced with two different bosses. If you have a discussion and he isn’t happy about the outcome, he will ‘forget’. You will have the same argument again, and again, and again.

      1. LizB*

        I legitimately have no idea how my manager could have successfully interviewed for this position. My only theory is that he was so bad at his previous job in this organization that they pushed him into my department just to get rid of him.

        And the misphrasing! I’ve tried to ask him a few questions to pass on to the higher-ups in the organization, since he knows absolutely nothing. Unsurprisingly, I’ve gotten no useful answers back. I’m sure this is because he either garbled the question he asked them or garbled their answer back to me. But I can’t go over his head to get real answers, so I’m stuck doing whatever my coworkers and I agree is best and hoping it goes okay.

      2. Development Professional*

        I was wondering if there was a visual learner thing going on there too. Or at least something about having very low literacy/reading comprehension. A challenge like that only gets compounded when you have more stuff to remember or keep track of, but no reliable way of referring to notes for it.
        LizB, do you think he’d be helped by a voice memo thingy?

        1. stressfulfriends*

          The ways I deal with the visual type:
          -make as much of my progress report in figures/diagrams/flowcharts as possible, use as little word as possible
          -only show one at a time. We usually sit around a table and everyone brings printouts for weekly updates. I show one picture per page, discuss, then cover up the picture before showing the next one.
          -don’t rely on him to proofread written works (i get good feedback on figures, but not the rest). Made a pact with a peer that we proofread each other’s things.
          -when we contact clients etc, and I normally would only send him a list of facts so he can write to clients, I now put the facts into an email I write for him, addressing the client. He then just copies and pastes the text, maybe changing some bits.
          Luckily, his ego is not so oversized and he appreciates the help, acknowledging his weaknesses.

  64. Lies, damn lies, and...*

    Pregnancy. I’m pregnant, but not enough to tell my coworkers. How to manage stuff being scheduled for after I can no longer travel/when I will be out? Nothing needs to be booked yet, but I get a little weird around whether my calendar is open in November (no, but I’ll say yes). Also rant on stupid US maternity polcies and how I have to stockpile my leave to get a few weeks pay while I am out, but that was expected huh?

    1. AFT123*

      Hey me too! It kind of sucks, right?! Feeling awful all the time but not wanting to tell anyone yet… I can sympathize. This is my first, so I don’t have any ideas here, but am interested to see what others post. Oh and agree about stupid US maternity policies.

      1. Lies, damn lies, and...*

        Congrats! Yeah, I need to snack all the time otherwise I feel like puking, so hopefully no one raises an eyebrow on that one…

    3. Anne*

      I’d just keep it as vague as possible (“at the moment I’m free in November” or whatever) and then tell them as soon as you feel comfortable, which for me was the 2nd trimester. That still leaves at least several months before no traveling and maternity leave, which for my job is plenty of notice.

      Also, boo for US maternity leave policies. Do you have short term disability? It covered 6-8 weeks at 60% pay for me without having to use vacation/leave days, then for the rest of my leave I was able to use my paid time off to get 60% pay the whole time.

        1. NJ Anon*

          In NJ, short term disability is through the state. Have you checked with your state’s dol?

    4. Ineloquent*

      Congratulations! It is super hard to be dealing with early pregnancy at work. I’m only about 6 months pregnant right now, so I really get where you’re coming from.

      If you can, try to get people cross-trained by talking more generally about contingency plans, planned redundancy, etc. It will make your later months hopefully less stressful. Don’t worry about booking stuff for the time you’ll be off – odds are good that if you successfully cross train you’ll have someone to fill in for you.

      Major boos on the lack of good maternity policies in the US. I have very excellent short term disability, so I’ll be covered for most of my FMLA 100%, but without that I don’t know what I’d do.

    5. A Non E. Mouse*

      Congrats!

      What I did with my pregnancies: waited until I was past the first trimester, then let my immediate boss/coworkers know. I had some early losses, I wasn’t comfortable discussing it until then.

      At the point I started showing, I acted like It Was A Known Thing, and mentioned it when we were planning items, i.e. I won’t make that November thing, I’ll be on leave, but So-and-So would be good to loop in on that.

      Then two months out from term, I basically implemented a No New Projects rule and made sure I was documenting the shit out of what I did. I blocked off the calendar a week before my due date out to when I planned on coming back, marked it Out Of Office and named it Leave. So in case someone pulled up my calendar but was remote to me (couldn’t see me waddling the halls), they would at least know I wouldn’t be in those approximate times.

      At four weeks out, if it wasn’t on fire it had to go to someone else. I still handled hot items, but mostly made sure what was coming in was documented correctly, and someone else knew how to do it.

      Two weeks out I just put my feet up and hoped for the best (with the first two, last one I was on bed rest by then and PANIC ENSUED at the office despite my careful documentation of All The Things prior to that).

      Hope that helps!

    6. fairyfreak*

      Figure out when you want to let them know, and wait until then to work out the schedule. It’s hard! I was in internal audit during my first pregnancy and they announced the travel schedule a couple weeks before I told my manager. I had the best schedule ever. EVER. Norway, Australia, Canada…I was supposed to be in Germany on my due date. I’m still sad, thinking about that schedule, and it’s been 5 years! :)

  65. JBurr*

    So, has anyone else had success sharing Ask a Manager advice with colleagues?

    We had a candidate come in for a final interview this week and had her meet with the folks she’d be managing so they could ask her some questions and be part of the vetting process. We’ve never done this before, so most of them had no idea the type of things to ask, so I sent them the link to Alison’s post on interviewing your potential manager. They all really appreciated it, and some even brought printed and highlighted copies to the meeting!

    1. Grumpy*

      Yes, I shared one of Alison’s rants about entitled and clueless employees.
      It was printed off and posted on bulletin boards (with the link crediting the website) all over work. Eventually senior management ordered it taken down because entitled, clueless employees were getting offended. Many of Alison’s scripts are shared with managers too.

      The company promotes people for the wrong reasons and therefore has managers with no solid management skills. Don’t get me started, it’s the weekend! Time to chill….

  66. Ask a Manager* Post author

    This week’s reality check post where you could ask people whether your job was normal or sucked seemed to go really well! (I ended up not having time to read everything but my sense at least is that people liked it.) Do y’all want that again in the future, and are there any other similar posts you’d like?

    1. AFT123*

      I thought that was great! What an excellent idea.

      I love the intermittent open threads calling for commenter contributions. It’s fascinating to me to read about people’s experiences, lives, jobs, etc in real life, outside of my own bubble.

    2. AnonForThis*

      I liked it, but I think it would be better as a one-off or annual thing rather than a regular event.

      I’d like an “is this normal/good/weird?” post on interview questions, but I recognize that I’m kind of fixated on that right now because we’re in college recruitment season and others might not care so much!

    3. LQ*

      That was awesome! I got totally shifted around in my thinking on mine so I feel really glad I was able to ask it. And some of the other things were amazing. It would be great to see more like this now and then (like every year or two maybe). Thanks so much for hosting it and jumping in where you did. And for everyone who responded (to mine especially of course, but there were so many comments that were helpful).

    6. Triangle Pose*

      I was late to the “how much money do you make?” party, but man I found that post SO FASCINATING and I’ve endlessly looked at and discussed the 2 spreadsheets readers kindly put together. Maybe it’s too soon, but I’d love to have another round of that, especially given the changes in the economy/job growth and if your readership has changed since then.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        I’d like to see another thread like that too so I can plan my next career move.

    7. BRR*

      I liked it and wouldn’t mind it again but I don’t think I would like it as much if it was very frequent. I found all of the comments very interesting to read but I some started to drift a little towards complaining and I feel I would grow tired of that.

      I really enjoy the posts where the comments have a theme like the reality check, salary, AMA, and the one you did about running a blog.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Oh, the ask me anything! I remember that with very fond memories. For some reason I thought you were talking about something distinct from that.

    8. CAA*

      Sorry to ask this, but next time, could you avoid the word “sucks” in the title? Our stupid Kaspersky software blocked it as not work appropriate. I’ve never had an AAM post blocked before, so that’s the only cause I can think of.

    9. jesicka309*

      I’d love to see a post like “things you wish your careers counsellor had told you”.

      Another cool one could be “jobs you didn’t know you could do in high school”. Some of the jobs out there I had no idea existed until I was in my mid 20s and I would have considered them if I did!

  67. TheLazyB*

    So I came across the concept of a To Don’t List the other day. Ignoring the terrible name, I’m intrigued. Does anyone use them for work? (I will post about using them in personal life tomorrow if that’s OK with Alison!) I am terrible for getting distracted and going off task and this seems really simplistic but at the same time I think it might help!

    Links to follow.

  68. Jennifer M.*

    I was a little bold yesterday. I got laid off at the end of September and have been job hunting ever since. I applied for a federal gov’t position as a PSC (not the bold part). They require that you list every supervisor with contact info on your resume. The people who are acting as my references already know they are my references. For those that aren’t on that list, I was just reaching out to inform them that this was happening (in my industry this isn’t unusual). One of my old supervisors (probably the best manager I’ve ever had), called me back to say hi. When she heard I wasn’t working right now, she said she might have some short term work for me. And then the cell phone signal dropped. I started to type up an email to let her know I was interested and available. In the middle of this, she called me back. She had already talked to the Sr. VP for the department whom I had worked with also back in the day and he said “sign her up!”. She told me to send her my updated resume and my rate.

    This is the bold part. I went big on the rate. Well, not even that big necessarily, but bigger than might necessarily be my inclination. I took my previous full time rate and first converted to a daily rate using the industry standard of annual salary / 260 working days in a year. I then added approximately 23%. Now, I’m not pulling this out of no where. My last job had the official policy of adding 25% to someone’s full time rate when they were converting to short term consulting (my industry involved a lot of government consulting). This 25% is to address benefit and tax stuff that you don’t get as a consultant. I used 23% because it resulted in a rounder number. Now, I softened it a bit by saying in my email that my ideal rate is $X, but we can discuss it when we talk about the specifics of what she needed me to do. My first inclination was to ask for my old annual salary converted into a daily rate, but I don’t want to be one of those women who gets short changed because she doesn’t attempt to negotiate. Since I’m not planning on being a career consultant, establishing a consulting rate that is higher than my full time rate isn’t as critical for my career. I’ll totally take less. I have been unemployed for 5 months and will have used up my severance by the middle of the March and will have to start to dip into my emergency fund, so I need some income. But I wanted to try to swing for the fences.

    1. AFT123*

      Good job!! Be proud of yourself! You never know what could happen! Keep us posted! (I’ve had caffeine, can you tell? :) )

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      That sounds totally reasonable. When I was submitting my salary requirements for a short-term contract position my boss got for me (complicated, but he couldn’t take it and I actually am the subject matter expert not him, so he put me up for it) but he recommended taking my current salary and adding 40%, so 23% seems totally reasonable. Remember if it’s contract work and you are getting a 1099 not a W-2, you need to add the extra social security tax that you will need to pay, I might be slightly mistaken on final numbers, but I believe it was that your employer pays around 7.5% and you pay 7.5% so when you are self-employed or a contractor you pay the whole 15%.

      1. Jennifer M.*

        Yeah. In addition to paying both halves the social security, you start moving into the realm of quarterly taxes. Luckily, even if this does come through with a start sometime next week, I’m pretty sure they still pay consultants only once a month so I would be paid April 10 at the earliest and I’d be clear for quarterly taxes for Jan-Mar.

  69. BlackEyedPea*

    I had my first legit lead for a job after being out of work for awhile and sending out many applications. Yesterday, I found out that I didn’t get it. I unserstand why (I was not the most qualified candidate), bit it still sucks. I’m doing everything Alison says, but no job yet. I’m starting to get extremely depressed and wonder if I should have stayed in OldJob, even though it was so bad and toxic that it was affecting my health.

    1. Mirilla*

      Hang in there! I’m job searching too but still at old job. It’s hard to stay positive but it’s so important.

    2. Engineer Woman*

      Echo: hang in there!
      I have been unemployed for sometime as well (living in a city that doesn’t really have a lot of opportunities for what I do) and no legit lead as of yet.
      Only 1 application has resulted in a prelim call from HR to which no interview ever came of it…

      1. BlackEyedPea*

        That’s where I’m at right now. It’s soooooo crappy. How are you dealing with it?

  70. evilintraining*

    Anyone ever have those little rubber bracelets made for something and have to mail them out? If so, can you tell me how you sent them? My organization just went through a little bit of hell with this, and I need some ideas to do this better without breaking the bank on postage.

    I did consult the USPS, but what they suggested ended up being a giant pain: if we just put them in envelopes, the bulkiness made them a “parcel” ($2.54 for up to 3 oz., pretty expensive for just one). If we taped them down to a piece of paper before putting them in an envelope and kept the bulk under 1/4″, they could be sent as a “flat” ($.98 for under 2 oz.). The taping was time-consuming and difficult; each bracelet was individually wrapped by the manufacturer, so we had to unwrap each one and turn it inside out so that the tape wouldn’t peel off the message on the bracelet. Ugh.

    1. LizB*

      That sounds like a huge pain. Could you have wrapped a piece of tape around the middle of each bracelet while it was still in the wrapping to make them slightly more flat? That would have been my only thought. Mildly harder for the recipient to open, but it would save a bunch of time on your end.

      1. evilintraining*

        Sadly, no. It still popped up the envelope too high, and we would have had to pay parcel postage. :(

        1. LizB*

          Ugh. Stiffer cardboard envelopes, maybe? Like the kind photos and other items that shouldn’t be bent sometimes come in? Those might be more expensive than the parcel postage, but if you can get them in bulk, maybe it would be doable. (Buy one or two from the post office to test the idea first and get their okay, obviously.)

    2. MeridaAnn*

      Hmm. What about rectangles of cardboard that would slide inside the bands – just barely stretching them so that they end up flat along the sides? If you could get the right combination of thin, but sturdy cardboard, cutting the rectangles in bulk and sliding the bands over them might be easier and more consistent than individually taping the bands.

    3. LisaLee*

      My company did that, but I believe we had the manufacturer mail them out to the recipients.

      I believe FedEx has some sort of mass business mail discount too.

    4. InsideTheBox*

      Not sure if this works for you – but we send them in bulk. These were bands sent through work to other co-workers though for participation. I think if it were not in bulk we would have asked the maker to send as well.

  71. Angie*

    Can anyone with experience working abroad (outside of the US) share how it helped/didn’t help their career?
    I’m a young professional (just 1 year out of university), and I’ve just been let go from my current job. I’m considering a lot of options, including staying with my current company (in a different position), applying to another company, and even applying to positions outside of the US. One of the biggest obstacles that I’ve encountered, is definitely the lack of entry level opportunities abroad, especially since I don’t have a finance background. I do have language proficiency in one of the Asian countries, but I’m not interested in teaching English or doing anything academic – my background is in marketing and communications.
    I definitely feel like I’m at a crossroads, and would really appreciate any insight into developing a career path and working abroad.

    Thanks all.

    1. Jennifer M.*

      I don’t know if it would be interesting for you, but if you have a high level of fluency, you could look for linguist positions. I know a lot of large US-based construction/engineering/architecture firms often have these types of openings. One company to look at is AECOM. They are the one of the world’s largest engineering and design firms with openings all over the world including the US.

      1. GlorifiedPlumber*

        Excellent suggestion! Angie, other engineering/technology companies with global focus who might benefit from east asian language proficiency: Bechtel, WorleyParsons, CH2M HILL, Technip, Jacobs, UOP, Fluor, Chicago Bridge and Iron (CBI), Samsung, Mitsubishi.

    2. katamia*

      I spent a few months working in Asia last year (had to quit the job for health reasons, had to come back to the US because I was on a work visa and would have only been able to find similar positions to the one that was causing my health issues). It was a great experience. I’m desperate to go abroad again, although probably not to the same country (nothing wrong with the country, just that, well, I’ve been there and would like to try somewhere else). I’m planning to try to move again next year once I get my health issues under control.

      It’s been too soon to really say how much it helped or hurt my career because I only came back in December and was able to get my best freelance position from before I left back after I returned. But I feel like I’m a stronger worker at this freelance position now (the jobs are different but related, with lots of overlapping skills), and I definitely learned a lot.

      If your fluency is high enough, you could look for translator or interpreter positions in the country(ies) you’re interested in going to.

  72. NarrowDoorways*

    I feel good about things again! It’s been two months since my entire department was fired (except for me) and I finally feel like I’m not drowning.

    It was two months of 15 hour days and, not going to lie, I worried I’d be next if I didn’t preform well enough. But after working with the owner and the chief operating officer on a day-to-day basis, I think they’re happy with me.

    It’s such a relief. Maybe I can become a regular commenter again…. <3

  73. alice*

    My company is violating labor laws and refuses to do anything about it.

    We hired an unpaid intern last month. Before he was brought on, I made sure everyone (we are a four person company) knew how to handle the internship. Every single day he’s come in, my boss has deliberately ignored the rules. The intern has been left alone in the office for hours at a time, been instructed to answer phones and act as a secretary, and his work is not being overseen by anyone. I can’t do that because he works in a completely different role than I do. This guy has no idea labor laws are being broken, but my boss and co-workers do. They’ve repeatedly told me that if the intern doesn’t have a problem with how he’s being treated then there’s no problem at all. I’ve brought this up pretty much every day the intern works. Should I go to the department of labor? What else can I do? If someone found out, we would get fined at a minimum.

    1. fposte*

      What do you want to do? I’m a rule-lover, so I get the impulse to right the disturbance in the matrix, but I think it’s worth considering the outcomes. I doubt that the intern getting paid will be one of them, so I would probably do it soon so he can find another internship. In a four-person company, with only one person talking about how the intern needs to be treated, it’s pretty likely they’d know that you’re the one who called–are you okay with the effects of that?

      I’m not saying not to do it–I’m just saying that you want to factor in the consequences of the report as well as the wrong that’s done.

      1. LQ*

        Unfortunately I’m with fposte here. My other question would be how long is the internship? Is this a one off or something that will happen often?

        1. alice*

          The internship lasts until June. Yeah, I’m super disturbed by broken rules, especially when they involve laws. Do I want to lose my job over this? Of course not, but that is a real possibility. (I know there are protections against retaliation of that kind, but still). The internship isn’t horrible – the guy seems happy and he is learning a ton. Ugh. I’m so torn.

      2. Ife*

        Another consequence to keep in mind, is that if the internship is being used to complete a course requirement and the student loses the internship for any reason, they’re usually required to repeat the course. That could delay graduation or affect their GPA, so even if the intern knows they’re being treated illegally, they may prefer that to retaking the class.

    2. F.*

      If this is an internship in partnership with an educational institution, someone should definitely clue them in so they do not place any more interns there until they clean up their act and follow the law. As everyone else is saying, you do have to consider the consequences, though.

      1. Observer*

        Yes, but don’t do it till this intern finishes. The reason is that at this point, he would be hurt more than helped- he’d lose his internship and have to redo it, or even redo the whole course.

        It stinks, but it’s probably the best you can do. Also, when you clue the the placement people at the school, please tell them that you need them to NOT mention that you said anything.

  74. MechE31*

    I’m officially putting in my two weeks today. My boss has known for about a month due to the required government background investigation.

    I’m moving from managing a small team at a small company to a senior individual contributor at a large company working on an awesome project. I’m super excited about the opportunity not to mention the 30% raise and future growth potential.

    Here’s my question, how can I make it clear that I want to take a path to a program management role without sounding like I took the job to get my foot in the door, which I didn’t? I’m genuinely excited about the role I got hired for, which fits nicely with my background, and an not looking to move on right away. Should I wait to bring up mid to long term career progression until I get settled in?

    1. fposte*

      Congratulations! And yes. Don’t bring up a new job, even at the same place, until you’re clearly ensconced in the one you have.

      1. Lady Kelvin*

        Yeah, this is something that you want to bring up at your first performance review. Lord Kelvin has to write goals for himself, so if he was interested in management one of the things he would discuss with his manager is “I’d like to take on projects, etc that would be beneficial experience to moving into a more supervisory position in a few years.” Then discuss what type of things you could do to build that skill set.

  75. Nervous Accountant*

    Am I wrong to feel this way? I haven’t said anything but I certainly feel irked, and I don’t know if it’s justified.

    Quick bkgd–I helped a friend/acquaintance get an admin job at my company last year. As with most admin jobs it’s either a step in the right direction (admin stuff then slowly adding accounting duties etc) or just a placeholder job–nothing wrong w either one IMO.

    She no longer here but she’s always talking about how crappy my company was, a waste of her time/skills, not useful etc. She had some legit points about specific things (pay, workload etc), but on the whole–it bugs me when it’s framed that way. She’s happy at her current place so it’s on the tip of my tongue–“well your job here helped you get a job there so it wasn’t a total waste then was it?” But I hold back because I dont’ want to come across as one of those people whos like “hey I did you this favor and this is how you act?” >> I’m forgetting the word/phrase for that, but I just don’t want to be one of those ppl.

    I just remember that she was complaining about not finding a job. Having been in that situation and wanting to pay it forward….and also seeing that she’s a bright, intelligent, educated awesome person…I took a huge risk (I say risk bc I had JUST started when I recommended her to my boss). I mean it worked out well for the company, bc she was loved by everyone (upper mgmt, coworkers etc) but still.

    FWIW my company isn’t perfect but when someone helped me get a job, I would be a little more conscious of it.

    This experience makes me not want to ever help anyone with a job again.

    1. Sadsack*

      I think you can say that in a light or curious tone and it would be fine. I think you may be taking your friend’s comments personally, but I can also understand why.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        yeah, I think thats it, taking it too personally–that’s why I haven’t said anything.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So she was there a year or less? huh. Yeah, I would be a bit slower in recommending people, myself.
      I guess you could say, “I am sorry you felt the job was crappy. I feel badly about that. I just wanted to help. Everyone there loved you, so at least you had that good part.”

      It could be the position itself and not your friend. You might decide that you won’t recommend people for that position. Give it time see how things look in a few months. The dust will be more settled then.

    3. CM*

      I don’t think you’re wrong to feel that way, but your friend is probably just thinking she’s criticizing the company and it has nothing to do with you. She probably also isn’t thinking about the risk you took, since it turned out fine and ended up not impacting you (or if anything, impacting you positively because you recommended somebody that they loved). Still, you could just tell her, “When you complain so much about the company, it makes me feel bad because I helped you get a job here. I’m glad you’re happier at your current place, but I’d appreciate it if you’d cut down on trashing the old place to me.”

    4. Tomato Frog*

      Your friend is being rude and thoughtless. Repeatedly complaining about the outcome of a favor someone else did for you and insulting their workplace is some textbook rudeness. You are well within your rights to say “Please knock it off, you’re making me feel like shit.” There’s a reasonable chance she doesn’t intend to make you feel bad, and would stop if she knew she was. I like CM’s phrasing, above.

      The fact that you’re so hesitant to speak up makes me wonder if she’s a bad friend in general, one whom you can’t trust to care about your feelings — or if you just let this build up so much in your head that you have completely lost sight of the basic fact that of course you can ask her to stop saying these things to you.

  76. Cici*

    Utlizing AAM’s advice, I crafted an amazing cover letter and navigated through three interviews with a company that I was super excited about. Received an offer earlier this week and am TOTALLY bummed out! So many red flags, with the biggest being exempt from OT when this role cannot be exempt (it’s an Admin Assistant position). The company does not have an HR person and when I brought up the issues and how they are in violation with the employment standards legislation, I was brushed off. Needless to say, I declined the position. Thank you AAM for making me a better informed job searcher!

  77. Ayla K*

    I’ve recently quit my job as an analyst (thanks to everyone who helped with that in a previous Friday thread!) and I’m trying to get a job in HR – with little to no direct experience. What should my LinkedIn “title” read? I know it’s one of the first things people see/search for. I’d like to say “HR Generalist” but that’s not true yet. And I don’t want to keep “Analyst” there since all my recommendations are based off that.

    1. Cici*

      Just out of curiosity, why have you chosen the HR field? Most places will be looking for someone with previous HR experience if the role is HR Generalist as this may be the only HR role they have within the company. I am in the HR field current and do not have a formal background/training in the field. I started off as an HR Assistant and moved up with experience and going back to school. Basically the HR Assistant role is similar to an Admin Assistant but your primary duties will be to support the HR department or person.

      I would not recommend using a title that you have no experience in. It would seem like false advertising and hiring managers will be put off by that.

      1. Ayla K*

        Right, I’m applying to HR Associate/Assistant roles, since I know those are the most “entry-level” in the field. I guess I didn’t mean Generalist for the title, but I don’t know what to put that shows that I’m LOOKING to be in HR but not there yet. I do have some background in L&D/training, so I’m using that as my main thing.

        1. Development Professional*

          Having quit your job, I think it’s one of the few instances where it makes sense to have a headline like “Seeking a Human Resources opportunity” and then in the description section, talk about why you want to go to HR and what relevant skills you have. Then below that, you have all of your existing experience. If it’s not a secret that you’re looking for work, LinkedIn is the one place where it makes sense to be really clear about your search.

          1. Ayla K*

            I recently read that that comes across as “tacky” and not a good thing, but I’ve seen both sides – I trust this community more than anywhere else though!

    2. RevengeoftheBirds*

      I’m on HR and would suggest not using HR Generalist in your LinkedIn.
      It’s a coveted title and one that many never attain – it also implies a breadth of experience and knowledge in all or most of the practice areas.

  78. lfi*

    does anyone have any advice on not making mistakes at work?

    we had a project plan for something.. and i did it, according to said plan. noticed a huge error before everything was finalized, and it was ultimately fixed. my higher ups said that the project plan looked off and great catch.

    then.. two days later.. down at bottom of project plan had a date at the bottom to avoid said error, but was still lacking information needed to complete said project correctly.

    i don’t want to be reamed for this.. but after noticing the lack of additional info i’ve also updated process instructions and plan documents. and, we only have three more pay periods of having to do this.

    any thoughts/ideas on this? part of it is having people bark up your tree for everything RIGHT NOW OMG and it’s hard to turn it off and not let that into my head.

    for what it’s worth i’m in my early 30’s and this is my sixth month at a new job/position.

    thanks!

    1. AnxiouslyAnon*

      Honestly, I have post-it notes on the bottom of my computer monitor reminding me to get certain things settled before I turn things into my boss. Not super in-my-face, but enough of a contrast that it’s been subliminally getting into my brain, I think.

      That’s all I can offer, sorry!

    2. RVA Cat*

      “part of it is having people bark up your tree for everything RIGHT NOW OMG”

      Having something immediately and having it error-free are contradictory goals. Only one can be accomplished. I would follow up with your boss to see which is more important, but it sounds like accuracy is. In that case, there should be some reasonable baselines set for turnaround time to push back on the impatient people.

      1. lfi*

        Yes… that’s what it’s coming down to, I’m afraid.

        What’s strange is people audited this before it went through and no one caught it… I’m just thanking my lucky stars that I noticed it before we hit submit, that’s all.

    3. CM*

      Checklists!
      But… it takes a little time and experience to develop checklists, which you may not have yet only 6 months in.
      If nobody else is catching these things either, and you’re proactively noticing and fixing them, it sounds like you’re doing fine.

      1. lfi*

        thanks so much for this – i appreciate it.

        we are about to have a huge change with our current processing system, so only one more month and then things will get infinitely better (no more dates, etc… everything should feed over automatically!)

    4. A Non E. Mouse*

      Post-it notes and checklists are helpful; the other thing I will do on a large document is the same trick my high school English teacher taught me – read it backwards.

      Reading it the same way you created (wrote) it can make you miss things. So when I’ve got something large I start at the “bottom” – last page, last sheet/cell in the workbook, etc.

      I also will print it (I know, I know, “paperless society”) and take it elsewhere to read it over. Getting away from my desk and looking it over uninterrupted helps me find formatting errors, things that don’t look like they make sense, etc.

  79. Age discrimination with a twist*

    I changed my career path and industry when I was 35, from quiet bookstore management to *wild* wine sales. I got into the industry through wine retail. Anyway, most folks start in this industry soon after college – or if no college, then in their early 20s because they were probably restaurant servers and managers. People tend to hit a *sweet spot* in their careers at around 35 years old, I imagine it’s like that in most other industries.
    Well, I’m 50 years old now, and I realize age discrimination does indeed exist. It really sucks because I am at the same knowledge and experience level as a mid-30s management type, but certainly not at the same professional and wage earning level.
    So I’m seen as an old hack or a peddler. Most buyers in my industry are in their early-mid-30s. They prefer dealing with younger salespeople and managers, and I do *understand* that. They can go until 2 in the morning and whoop it up (I did that before the kiddos came along). People my own age who are in much higher senior management roles – where I aspire to be – are whooping it up only until 11pm! I’m certainly friendly with people close to my age in the industry. as it is a very social industry by nature. And please don’t misunderstand, I do get on well with some young buyers. But my professional “inexperience” really seems to be holding me back every year.
    This is a rant, so forgive me, but if anyone has changed career paths and gone through this, please let me know how to get over it. Potential employers tend to be my age as well, if not younger, and the vicious cycle continues.

    1. LCL*

      I know very little about your industry. I just started reading about it. What struck me is that the people who are actually making the product-the vintners, the property owners & etc are often 50+ and making wine is a post retirement second career. Maybe talk more to them, and to the owners of established upscale restaurants?

      1. AD with a twist*

        I do try to speak to proper winery owners whenever possible, it is a trophy 2nd career for many of them. But they have gatekeepers just like other company owners. These gatekeepers are generally sales managers, and that’s exactly the role I’m shootinf for. So they keep those openings closely guarded, and I get the “if I hear of anything I’ll keep you in mind” talk from them.
        Restaurant owners don’t really want to be bothered with these issues, they have their own to deal with.
        I hate to sound negative…the wine industry looks SOOOOO romantic to the consumer but it many respects it’s a bit dog-eat-dog.

  80. Christie*

    Hi all!

    I am having some trouble with an employee not giving the best customer service. She is part-time and works mostly in the evenings so I rarely get a chance to work with her. I have observed her in the last week rolling her eyes at customers, telling customers that she can’t do something for them which she can, and at one point complaining about a customer on the phone to another staff member while still on the call (not placing the customer on hold or anything just moving the phone away from her face). I did approach her about putting customers on hold when she has a question for a colleague regarding the call and her response was “I don’t want to put people on hold because I’m afraid I will lose the call.” We were the only 2 running the department at the time and it got too busy for me to address it at that moment. I will not work with her again until Monday evening (one of our busiest times) so I am wondering if I should send an email to address this issue ASAP or wait to speak with her face-to-face. I want to be timely, but I also want to make sure I am addressing this in the best way possible. She has worked for us for about 8 months and this is the first time I am observing this behavior and it may be due to some stress in her personal life. Not making excuses, just trying to explain. Thanks for any help!

    1. fposte*

      Are you her manager or a co-worker? If you’re not her manager, who is?

      Assuming that it is in your remit to correct her, I’d talk to her next time you saw her, and if you’re technically her manager I might make a special trip in to talk to her, because these are pretty big things in a customer-facing position. Stress or no stress, that’s the kind of thing that gets somebody fired.

      1. Christie*

        I am her manager. Thanks for the advice! I’ve had to sit down with both my full-time employees for various issues (nothing customer service related), but it was much easier since we work together so often and I could address issues immediately.

        1. fposte*

          And in future, something like an eyeroll and a lie to a customer are things that you correct her for pretty firmly on the day, as close to the offense as you can. I wouldn’t bring up the stress, and if she brings it up you say “I understand that you’re facing some difficulties, but we need still need you to be respectful and helpful at your job. Not meeting those standards would put your job here in jeopardy.” I say the last because I think it should and I hope it does, because those are pretty bare minimum standards, and because I think she’s really feeling like she gets to do what she wants to do without any consequences, from the sound of it.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreeing with fposte that she knows she can get away with it. If you are seeing this much when you are working with her then I wonder what she does when you are not there. If you can schedule yourself to work with her for a few shifts so you can see what is going on. If you have videos or voice recordings look at those things. Is there a shift leader that works with her? This person may need to be aware of your goals for this employee. And you may need to make sure this shift lead feels she has the authority to correct these things at any time from anyone.

            My experience has been that people who are willing to do this in front of a boss are absolutely unbearable to work with when the boss is not there.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Whoops, wanted to say, if she does not know how to use the hold button then there is no way on this green earth she should be making a remark about a customer on the phone. So her ability to get the phone to work correctly really has no bearing on that situation.

  81. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I just met a deadline after pulling a 15 hr workday and am in the office today. Besides rewarding myself with coffee, what other things can I do around the office in this lull period to recharge? (I have internets on the phone).

    1. OwnedByTheCat*

      I always like cleaning up my desk really thoroughly after a big crunch. Go through all my active files and shred what I’m done with. Wipe the whole desk down. Clean my keyboard. Make it feel all nice and tidy. And then treat myself to a nice lunch or a donut or something else I typically wouldn’t eat on an average work day!

    2. Ama*

      I like to organize my email inbox after a deadline — I find a big project really floods my inbox and also makes it more likely I dropped the ball on my usual filing.

  82. Just Wondering*

    Okay, so I want to be taken off a project where the other person in my two person team is making it impossible to succeed. I’ve had meetings about this with my boss before, so my complaints are on record, but I just had the final straw yesterday and I need to be reassigned (or for the other person to be replaced on this project). This would be about a third of my working hours, which if push came to shove I could afford to lose, although my boss sounded sympathetic to the situation in our meeting last November. (If my colleague were removed from a project, that would be half her working hours.)
    So my question is, I’ve written a two page summary of how my coworker is sabotaging the project, what I’ve tried, the steps we agreed on last time and the results, and the reasons I’m convinced that it would be impossible for the project to succeed with the two of us working on it. My conclusion is that I would rather walk away from the project, and the job in general if need be, than continue bailing water out of a sinking ship where the other person is poking holes in the bottom. So, should I send this summary to my boss in advance of our meeting, or wait to discuss this sensitive and potentially inflammatory subject in person, using the summary as my own notes and forwarding it later upon request? I’m a bit apprehensive about sending it first. I don’t want the boss to find counter arguments to convince me to continue in the project (“would you really wish this work onto someone less experienced?”), and I don’t want the letter floating around the company until I’ve talked to the boss about who might see it. But then, it seems only fair to give the boss the information ahead of time so she isn’t forced to react before she’s had a chance to consider the issues and my ultimatum.
    I’d love to hear your thoughts, and whether it’s from the perspective of a manager or the employee.

    And I do know I’m taking a huge risk with my reputation on this one, but I’m well respected at work, my colleague is known as difficult to work with, and the stress of the situation is taking a toll on my health, so it’s a risk I’m willing to take.

    1. glow-worm*

      Oof. I don’t know if I’d be comfortable sending that over email until I’d had a chance to sit down with your manager. You could print out copies for the two of you and then possibly send it after, depending on the reception you get.

      1. Just Wondering*

        Yeah, I do want the issue to be recorded in writing, but I would definitely prefer to talk about it face to face, with tone and body language to ease the message.
        I don’t want my boss to feel ambushed or blindsided, but…

        I can’t even write out what happened without getting furious all over again.

        1. F.*

          I would also include in the letter the steps you have taken to try to mitigate the situation. Most managers don’t like a pile of problems dumped into their laps without seeing some evidence that something has been attempted to be done about it. Your manager may view this as a personality conflict and not want to get involved, too.

        2. stressfulfriends*

          I would give it to her in person, but not pressure her for a final decision. If you tell the boss “I don’t want you to feel ambushed, so if neccessary, take time to think about this and we can make a decision tomorrow.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Be aware that there are some people who do not deal with ultimatums period. So no matter how right you are the ultimatum sinks your argument.

      If you knew for a fact that the ultimatum ALONE would cost you the job would you still make that ultimatum?

      If you want to have a strong chance of winning this one your best bet it to frame it as why it is in the boss’ best interest to take a closer look at what is going on here. That could be expressed as “This project is taking three times the amount of hours that it should” or “We have 30 percent wasted materials on this project and ordinarily we run about 7 percent.”

      Think about this carefully. It might be better to go in and just offer your resignation. “I believe Project X will damage my professional reputation because of [reasons]. I have no control over these reasons but I do have responsibility for the poor outcome. I cannot afford to have this poor outcome on my record.” I had a friend do this. His resignation was accepted and the shoddy work went on without him. This crap happens and it sucks.

      1. Just Wondering*

        Good advice! I know my boss has given in to other people’s ultimatums in the recent past, so I’m pretty sure it won’t cost me my job, but I’ve decided this is a hill I’m willing to die on if need be.
        I worked my butt off to get the project back on schedule after a meeting about the issues back in November. I had a family emergency that took me away for five weeks, which I just came back from, and despite her having had help from other people, the project is five weeks behind schedule again, with none of the deliverables we agreed on being completed while I’m gone. I’m done.

  83. De Minimis*

    I am interviewing more students for part-time positions…having a difficult time filling them. Either they don’t have enough availability during our operating hours [one of them thought he could work for us on evenings/weekends] or they turn us down for other positions. Hoping the people I meet today will work out.

      1. De Minimis*

        At this point they would need to do something terrible during the interview for me to not offer the jobs to them…

        I’m just afraid I may hit a snag because one or both of them may be international students, but I know we’ve hired others in the past. The semester will be over before we get someone hired!

        1. De Minimis*

          First one went okay, but the person has a thick accent to where it might be difficult to communicate sometimes.

          But we have a full time person here who has an even thicker accent. It’s no reason not to hire someone, at least not for this type position.

  84. KT*

    I work for a large Fortune 500 company that is infamous for not promoting people. There is almost 0 chance of career growth. The funny thing is that I’m not asking for a promotion or a title change. My boss told me that he will be able to allocate some different projects to me that would expand my knowledge in the field I’m working in. For example, I’m doing mostly Teapot Coloring but these new projects would give me insight into Teapot Design. Big step. The program manager I collaborate with is managing Teapot Coloring and has since told my boss I am mostly done with that sector and can move on to other projects that are more related to Teapot Design. Technically, my boss and I agreed that we could reassign me to Teapot Design March 1. It’s now March 4 and I sent him an email a couple days ago with no response since. Program manager has also not heard back. It’s definitely lowering morale to find out the boss has gone mum now, this is 2 months after I got reassigned to the main floor from an office without my boss updating me. I feel pretty disposable by the company now. Essentially I am supposed to take over Teapot Design from a person who fell through after a background check. I just can’t help but think how crappy it would be if they decided to hire another person and haven’t told me.

  85. Jade*

    How do you deal with an unresponsive company? I posted last week about a company I interviewed with not responding to me within the timeline they gave, meanwhile having my current boss asking if I’d like to take on more work. I took the advice I got here and emailed HR on Monday to summarize the situation and ask for an updated timeline. They still have not gotten back to me.

    At this point I don’t know how to proceed. I would contact them again- perhaps this time by phone, perhaps contacting a different person I interviewed with- but I don’t want to come off as pushy. I know for a fact that this company sends rejection letters to candidates they aren’t interested in, so I know at some point they will answer me one way or another. If they can’t stick to their timeline, then a simple update “We’re still in the hiring process” or something would be helpful.

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      I would write it off and not keep your hopes up at this point. My experience with delayed rejection letters is that a lot of places will wait to send them until someone has accepted an offer, so they have backup people just in case.

      1. Jade*

        In between the time I posted and now, my rejection letter came in the mail. I was pretty much expecting that and had started looking for other jobs before then. It’s hard not to be upset because this job was a like a unicorn- it sounded like had everything I wanted, but I guess it wasn’t meant to be. It’s also frustrating when a company says “We’ll call you within X weeks,” but you get nothing but radio silence long beyond that deadline.

        1. overeducated and underemployed*

          Aw, I’m so sorry. I got rejected from my “unicorn” job after multiple interviews last week, and yeah, being upset is absolutely natural. I hope something even better will come up for you soon.

          1. Jade*

            Thanks. I keep telling myself maybe I would have been wrong about it being a good job anyway. After all, I thought my current job was gonna be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it was a big let-down instead (hence the reason I’m looking elsewhere).

    2. NJ Anon*

      Move on. I am getting there now. Interviewed 4 weeks ago today. Hadn’t heard anything so I sent a quick email today but so far no response. I haven’t gotten a reject letter but have decided it was time to let go.

  86. Anonymous Educator*

    Last week I was able to catch up with some friends (former co-workers) from a job I had a few years ago. I moved away, and they were in town for a conference. We met up for a meal and caught up. I don’t really miss working at that place, but I do miss the people—I had some really great co-workers. Anyone else like your co-workers (or former co-workers) much more than the actual place of work?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      God, yes. I just came back from a weekend trip to visit a friend from a past job. I’m so grateful to no longer work there, and so grateful that my friend is still in my life!

    2. some1*

      At one former toxic place, it kind of went hand-in-hand. It was a small enough location that everyone knew my work clique, and if management didn’t like my friend, they would treat me differently.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Several from Exjob, though I only see my old supervisor sometimes for lunch. The rest I don’t see though we are Facebook friends. Most of them aren’t at Exjob anymore (one still is and will probably retire from there). We don’t talk about work, usually.

      That reminds me; I need to message FormerSup and see if she wants to go to lunch. She is actually working not that far from me, which makes it easy! :)

  87. Two Tickets to Paradise*

    How do you know if it’s time to switch careers? What can you do if you’re just not passionate about your work? Does it matter if you’re not passionate?

    I’ve been in my industry (marketing/communications/PR) for almost a decade. I currently work in a corporate environment in a non-management role. Overall, I have a “good” job – a little boring at times but well-paying and not terribly stressful. It’s the best paid job I’ve ever had, and I’ve had to scratch and claw and fight for every pay increase I’ve ever gotten in my career. I work at home full-time, so no commute and my manager (who I like a lot) stays out of my hair. Prior to this job, I worked in marketing at a children’s hospital. I LOVED the work and was actually a volunteer there for a long time before becoming an employee. I ended up leaving because my boss and department were both utterly dysfunctional. Prior to that job, I worked for several years in an ad/PR agency. Again, LOVED the work I did but horribly paid and couldn’t afford to pay my bills, save for the future, etc.

    The thing is, I have very little motivation to do anything else. I’ve always been a very ambitious person, working towards the next goal, coming up with a plan. I feel like I’m at a crossroads now. It could be that I’m heading into another part of my life (getting married in a few months and hopefully starting a family in the next year or so) and that’s coloring my feelings.

    1. Age discrimination with a twist*

      I switched careers at 35, and while I love my new industry, and I can’t see working at anything else, it hasn’t been kind to me. I actually posted my gripe about it above yours a few minutes ago. Just my own thoughts.
      But you have to be happy and make sure it pays enough, obviously.

    2. Ife*

      Yes, I am there with you on the good/stable job but “meh” about the work. From talking with others, it sounds like a lot of people are “meh” about their jobs, and are ok with that. Others make a job/career change to have more meaningful/interesting work. And there are the rare people I don’t understand who just LOOOVE filing TPS reports all day.

      In terms of what to do about it, I guess it really depends on how you rank your priorities. Right now, the stable job/money is more important to me, but in 5-10 years, I will probably be in a position to choose something I’m more passionate about or allows for better work-life balance. That gets me through the “meh” right now.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        In terms of what to do about it, I guess it really depends on how you rank your priorities.

        Same here. For me, working is just that–working to pay bills. I do my thing (writing) when I’m not on the clock. Unfortunately for me, I chose something that probably won’t pay enough to quit working unless I suddenly inherit a long-lost trust fund!

        Two Tickets, is there something you’re more passionate about that you can do in your off time? It doesn’t have to be a career and it might recharge you a bit, or lead to something new.

  88. Jennifer*

    Am I still obligated to call my references to let them know they “might” get a phone call when I get a job interview? I know it’s polite to give a heads up and all that, but I’m pretty sure they’ve never been called for a reference check and I’m starting to feel really stupid that I’ve called them and then don’t even get the second interview. I just don’t really want to have another hopeful conversation and then have it go to hell again, really.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would wait until you’re further along in the interview process before giving them the heads up. It’s been my experience that recruiters/hiring managers will let you know that they’re going to start calling references. That’s when I send the heads up note.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I alert my references anytime I start seriously job hunting. They know to expect calls until I tell them I found something. But they are all pretty awesome people.

    3. Ife*

      I send an email with the job description after I do an in-person interview. Then I have some more information about the job and why I think I’d be good at it, so I can add that too.

    4. BRR*

      I email when I start a job hunt and email again if I know they’re going to be contacted.

  89. Anon for this*

    I’m kind of embarrassed to post this– but how do people deal with breakups/divorces in the workplace and still keep it pushing?

    I’m not new to the workforce (midlevel specialist/manager) and I’ve battled depression/PTSD since leaving the military. I’ve also had breakups, but I’ve (luckily) never had them overlap. But I’m going through a rough patch with my life partner and with depression and haven’t been able to handle both and my workload without feeling like I’m sinking or crying in the work bathroom.

    Does anyone have any tips to managing your work when it feels like you just absolutelycandamnnot anymore? I feel a bit silly asking this here, but I read an article AAM linked to dealing with depression in the workplace and figured someone could offer some tips.

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      1) If you are not talking to a professional, you should. Having multiple stressers occur while dealing with depression/PTSD is very difficult and you should not try to just “push through it”.

      2) Consider taking some time off of work (vacation time, a Leave of Absence) if possible.

      3) Focus on small tasks, one at a time and block your time for those. When I was recently dealing with some depression combined with an ill family member that was the only thing that got me through work. When I was not fully focused on a task is when I would start to break down and the stress and depression would creep in.

      Good luck!

    2. TCO*

      I’m sorry to hear that you have so many heavy things on your plate right now–it’s entirely normal to feel distracted from your work. I bet nearly everyone here has encountered a breaking point of some sort.

      Does your employer offer an EAP (employee assistance program)? I’d recommend starting with that if you can. An EAP can offer some resources for balancing work with your personal circumstances and can offer counseling (often at least a few sessions are free) if you’re not already working with therapist.

      I’d also keep reading those AAM archives, and maybe Captain Awkward, for a lot of great advice about balance, if/how to let your boss know that you’re struggling, etc.

      There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there.

    3. Rabbit*

      Don’t be embarrassed! Breakups and divorces happen to the best/all of us. My solution (this was in my mid-20s, so take it with a grain of salt) was to absolutely throw myself into my work. Thankless project no one else wants? I’ll take it! Unpaid overtime? Anything to keep me from home (where I’m alone and sad)!

      I’d rather be occupied with thoughts about my shitty work than my shitty love life. Plus, throwing yourself into work usually yields decent results (bosses notice, etc).

      If you have a close-enough relationship with your manager/boss, maybe let them know part of what’s going on, so hopefully they can be on your side. Best of luck in getting through this rough patch! I like to remind myself that when life becomes super hard, I must have leveled up. :)

  90. Angelica*

    I asked this question last week at the end of the open thread, so it didn’t get many replies, so I’m going to ask it again.

    Does anyone know why jobs in Canada are more credentialed than jobs posted in the USA?

    I’m researching other careers and I’ve been browsing all sorts of job boards, just to see what is out there, and I’ve noticed that every damn job in Canada is soooo credentialed. There’s always a SPECIFIC form of education required for almost everything. I’m so amazed that a BA in ANYTHING can get you anywhere in the USA. In Canada it appears that you have to get a damn DIPLOMA in Office Administration to become an admin!!!! Does anyone know how or why it became like this? I really want to switch fields, but it looks like I’ll have to go back to school regardless of where I want to go. I hate, hate, hate that I can’t just look at my transferable skills, write a good cover letter, etc. bada-bing bada-boom apply for new jobs and get interviews! I’m already exhausted thinking about it!

    1. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Mainly it boils down to completely different education systems, infrastructure-wise. For instance, in England (and Canada, which might likely be a commonwealth country answering to the queen like Australia, etc), university is only 3 years long and you come in immediately knowing what you want to specialize in. For those doing foreign languages, you may find yourself in a different country two semesters in. It’s intense in a good way, but different from American educations which emphasize exploration on a 4-year track, and flexibility (if you want to change majors 2 years in you can graduate on time, if you double/triple up classes).

      This probably extends to the structure of certifications. The rigorous nature of England/Canadian academics probably puts people on specific career tracks that show themselves through need for certifications (whereas for the USA, that’s not necessarily the case).

      This is based on my experiences talking to students abroad, merely thoughts/possible theories.

      1. Felicia*

        University in Canada (at least as far as I know) is almost always 4 years long, but otherwise I think you’re on to something. Education in Canada is generally more specialized, sooner, even at the high school level. e.g. especially if you want to go into STEM in university, the courses you choose in grade 11 make a big difference for that. By grade 11 -12 most of your courses are up to you to decide. E.g. in grade 12 I took 4 courses in the English department, French, Spanish, World History and one spare. The only thing required in grade 12 is English then you can do what you want. I think even in American high schools, more breadth is required. Then in university, i think we take far more courses directly related to our major, when American universities seem much more random. In university, probably 80% of the courses I took were related to my major, starting in first year, so university is more like getting specialized education on one subject, rather than the breadth that seems to be found in American universities. That might be it! Also, at least in my part of Canada, in my field, a bachelor’s degree in anything is fine, and it’s really the work experience that matters far more. So it could be possible that you’re generalizing, both about Canada, and the US, just based on your experience? They’re are both big/diverse countries!

        1. Belle diVedremo*

          University in the Province of Quebec is often 3 years, but follows a 2 year period at a CEGEP after finishing high school in 11th grade. So total number of years of education come out the same by the time you get your BA/BS, but in a different pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEGEP

          1. Felicia*

            In Quebec it actually ends up being more years of education, since Ontario got rid of our “grade 13” about 13 years ago or so. That’s why (i think?) people I know where accepted to Ontario universities only after 1 year of CEGEP. I’m from Ontario, but only 25 so too young to have experienced how the 13th grade worked back then

  91. Very Anon for This*

    I’ll preface this by saying my intent is not to start a debate about unions!

    I work at a very big company that’s about 1/2 union and 1/2 non (it’s split by job type, mine is non). Every time the union is in negotiations, the company plans for a strike by forcing the nonunion employees to train to take over the union jobs, and if a strike happens, they have to travel to the union job locations & work 72 hours/week for as long as the strike lasts. Some positions get overtime for this, some don’t. The company pays for travel, lodging & food but not for the cost of covering your home responsibilities (child/elder/pet care, etc.). If you refuse the assignment, you can be fired.

    Negotiations on the latest contract have be going on for the greater part of a year and the company has said as explicitly as possible without violating the law, that it is playing hardball and its goal is to break the union. I have a strong moral objection to this and don’t want to contribute to this goal. BUT, I also don’t want to lose my job if I can help it. I’m not the only one who feels this way, but most people who do just suck it up & don’t say anything…I don’t know anyone else who seriously considered saying no.

    Anyone with experience at this company or its competitor will probably know what I’m talking about although, I suppose it could also be a tactic in other industries too. What I want to know is, how likely it is that I’d really be fired for refusing the assignment if a strike happens?

    Again, please don’t argue the pros & cons of unions or what I think. I just want to know if anyone has firsthand knowledge of how serious they are about firing people.Thanks!

    1. Disordered*

      I went through this with a very large telecommunications company. I was in sales and trained for a union position. We still had to meet our sales quota — and not just during training – during the strike we would have been expected to do two jobs and still make our sales numbers! I don’t recall talk about firing for refusing to do the new job, but I’m sure that would have happened. The union did not strike, so the other job never happened.

      I am convinced that they do this for leverage with the union. They do not expect to have middle-aged sales managers climbing telephone poles. Look it as a the threat that it is and enjoy learning a new skill.

      1. Very Anon for This*

        Thanks for responding!

        The last time, there was actually a 2-week strike and the “management” employees were deployed for that time. So it’s definitely a threat to the union, but not an empty one. I know people who have had to do it 3, 4 times.

        The job I was assigned isn’t a skill I have any desire to learn, so unfortunately there’s no silver lining there.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I feel like this is talking out of both sides of my mouth. I was a union member. I am not a big fan of unions.
      I think this is typical in a unionized workplace, lots of drama, lots of empty threats, lots of tension. If you are going to stay at the job, try to view it as live theater. You are watching actors on a stage lay out their arguments pro and con. Sometimes they get very angry with each other and things get heated, then words fly.

      In the end, all the upset and all the constant tension contributed to me leaving the job. My husband’s degree was in labor relations. He said contract negotiation was a lot like a very long game of chess where each party is trying to be more clever than the other party. Negotiations are also an endurance test as each side tries to tire out the other side. So yeah , things drag on and on. It’s the nature of things. What you are talking about sounds normal in my experience.

      I would be remiss if I told you NOT to take the threat to fire seriously. That would be irresponsible advice on my part. However, more than likely they will never ask you to go on the assignments IN MY OPINION. (If they do ask, assume that you will be fired for not going- this is the conservative, safest way to view this.) But, like many things, this is a gamble/guess. Part of what I noticed in my union job is that people were upset about something all the time. If it wasn’t x then it was y. There was always something driving the upset.

      Short answer: If they ask and you say no, then you may actually get fired. I am betting they don’t ever ask. Check with people senior to you to find out past history.

  92. glow-worm*

    I’m trying not to be frustrated with the intern in our office, but frankly, it’s hard! I vividly remember my (recent) intern days, so I certainly sympathize with the ennui of doing boring/inconsequential work without pay, but I definitely don’t sympathize with the superiority complex. She’ll outright refuse tasks, or worse, decide not to do them and never let us know. She’ll barge in to answer questions that many other people in the vicinity are better qualified to answer. It’s not that she’s clueless or not smart, so I have no idea what’s going on here.

    I wonder if her behavior could be improved by having someone inform her of office norms, but unfortunately, I’ll never get to find that out. Her supervisors won’t manage her (not even a talking-to when she messed up an important file that took several hours of other people’s time to fix, or even when she told her manager that she would be 20 minutes late to the weekly team meeting because she was “busy”). And she wouldn’t take any advice well from me–she’s four years older (it’s a bit of an unusual situation all around).

    The frustration would be a lot easier to bear if I knew that there was an end date on the horizon. Currently she’s living with her parents, one of whom also works here and got her the job, and she’s not in school so it’s not as if she’ll leave at the end of a semester or something. Essentially, she’s here until she finds a paying job she’s satisfied with, which will never happen because she’s applying for Manager positions with a very slim real work experience–and I happen to know that she’s been fluffing up her qualifications in a way that is fairly obvious to hiring managers. So I guess this is just a new condition of the job! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    1. fposte*

      She’s annoying, but it’s her manager who’s really blowing it. Does your manager know that she’s screwing up your work?

      1. glow-worm*

        My manager knows, but unfortunately she’s not in the office much and she has a limited store of cards to play for intra-office politics. We’ve also let her manager know, but…uh….radio silence :) So now we just avoid giving work to her.

    2. Meg Murry*

      IMO, the root of the problem is that she’s an unpaid intern, which makes the bar to firing her harder and easier for her to blow off tasks she doesn’t want to do.

      Not to mention, why do you have unpaid interns messing in the only copy of an important file? Whenever I have even the tiniest bit of doubt about someone’s ability to work with a file (or my own, for that matter) I back up the original and/or save a copy as “working copy” and only work out of that one.

      I’m guessing you probably don’t have any say in the matter, but if you ever do, I would suggest hiring paid interns (at least at minimum wage) for fixed periods of time (that could be re-upped if mutually desired). Unpaid, indefinite intern = you get what you pay for, and if I was her supervisor I wouldn’t be happy about babysitting her either.

      1. glow-worm*

        Re: paid interns–I wish! I and several others have been advocating for pay for interns for a while now, but it’s hard to convince anyone to take that step when this is very much the industry norms.

        Also, it’s my understanding that she was in that file by accident….which I’m well aware does not redeem us in the slightest….

    3. F.*

      In the USA, UNpaid interns aren’t allowed to be doing anything resembling work. If they do, they must be paid. As far as her behavior, it could be that she is clueless if she has never had boundaries set before. If she were an ordinary intern, I’d suggest befriending her and offering little tips about what is acceptable and not acceptable workplace behavior. However, with the nepotism thing going on, she already knows she is privileged, so I doubt anything will change her behavior. Her manager may have been told that she is “hands off”, depending on just who her parent is. Just try to do damage control as much as you can. We have one of those in our company (the owner’s nephew). He has a much higher paying position than I do, and it is all make-work. Nepotism sucks!

  93. Pineapple Incident*

    What do you do when you’re being asked to re-orient staff who suck at the same job you do, but get paid more?We’re admins for a clinical area in healthcare. Raises here are entirely based on seniority/prior experience and not performance. I’ve been here for 2 years and I rock at my job- frequently lauded for making people’s lives easier where we work and doing things in advance of being asked.

    I’m supposed to come up with days that I can come in during the shifts this other coworker works, come in and retrain her. She is 35 years older than me, has been doing similar jobs since she was my age, and doesn’t have the best can-do attitude. This is gonna get hella awkward, right?

    1. fposte*

      You just do it. No reason for it to be awkward for you–if she wants to feel awkward about it, that’s her call. Do you have any kind of final assessment or anything–IOW, something where you can report to whoever tasked you with this if it looks like you’ve done your best but she shows no inclination to change? (Which may be the expectation–could be this is a step toward termination for her.)

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Acknowledge that the situation is awkward.
      I’d start with. “Hey I know it’s awkward having me here, but I’ve been asked to share some tips and tricks with you that I’ve found make the job easier/more efficient.”
      Try your best not to completely discount the way she’s been working. If you can find an approach that acknowledges what she knows and builds on it in a way that makes it obvious that what you are showing her is an improvement or makes her work life easier that’s the best way to go.

      1. Sadsack*

        I would not tell her this is awkward, I think that makes it awkward. You are just updating your coworker on some procedures, and hopefully she’ll already be aware of this before you show up.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Also don’t worry about the pay difference. Something tells me she’ll retire from her current position and you are being flagged as someone who will move up.

      1. Silver Radicand*

        Agreed. Write this down on your list of accomplishments for the year. Bring it up when raise/promotion time comes around. It is a good sign for you.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. It’s very difficult to teach attitude. Do you know what her sticking points are, what you need to get her to do differently?

      I would be heavy on explanations. “If you do X first then Y and Z are easier because of [reason].” Or “Yes, sometimes that machine stalls out but you can fix it by unplugging it, counting to ten and plugging it again. It’s handy to know this because the machine does tend to drop out a couple times a day.”

      Aim for a conversational tone. This may mean saying, “yeah I agree. The machine is a PITA when it quits like that. And you’re right it does fail a couple times a day.” Here you are simply acknowledging her frustration. This might be enough to help her soften her attitude on her own, in turn it may by you some inroads you do not see now.

      You may find yourself repeatedly using these techniques before you see changes. Or it could be that you never see changes. Be sure to let your boss know if she is refusing to change or using excuses not to change. In extreme situations, your boss might pull you off of the refresher if things go very badly.

    5. BRR*

      It might be awkward but you have to walk in with an attitude that it won’t be awkward.

  94. Anonymous in the South*

    We are implementing new software at work. This is supposed to make it easier for people to sign up for workshops, etc.
    It will not be easier. Instead of purchasing the complete system that is available from the designers of our database, we are going to have 4 systems that need to “talk” to each other and transfer data so that everything matches. I think it’s going to be a nightmare.

    My specific concern is the new software is complicated and not user-friendly. Even though I should not have to work with it, I was asked to sit in on the training. I assumed that they wanted me to learn and possibly sit-in for whoever was going to get this assigned to them. Well, I just found out that 4 coworkers basically “volunteered” me to take on the responsibility of entering all the workshops and events. They claim it’s going to be “so easy!” when the system is set-up. Nah, not buying it. If it was that easy, they wouldn’t be wanting other people to do it.

    I plenty of my own work to do. Assigning this to me would make my workload disproportionately heavy. How can I address this without sounding like I just don’t want to do it? I don’t want to use “It’s not fair” because I know things are not always fair, but honestly, that is the way I feel.

    1. NJ Anon*

      I think you answered your own question. It is taking away the ability to finish your job. It’s a workload issue.

    2. LQ*

      Ahh an LMS?
      (I want a real one but keep having to cobble together things to make stuff happen on my own.)

      Is this a direction you want your job to go? Do you see value in it for your career?

      It seems like this is something that once there is a process and system in place that the person creating the event/workshop should be able to enter it in, they’d have the information and wouldn’t have to go hunting it down to make sure they know all of the things around it to get it entered in.

      Could you make the Here’s How It Is Done document and then everyone is responsible for entering their own? Could you tell your supervisor entering is going to take X hours, and let them decide if it is a priority?

      (I both welcome and dread the day we finally get our LMS up and running, but given that I work in government I figure that will be another 5+years.)

    3. Meg Murry*

      Can you ask for something else to be taken off your plate, so if you are doing all the entering of workshops and events, your other co-workers can handle the teapot evaluation TPS reports? Or can you use this as a resume builder by writing out documentation for how to use the system (excellent to put on your resume!) and then passing it back so that everyone can do the entry, not just you?

      You should also keep a log of how much time you are spending doing this work, and how much time you spend holding users hands that are trying to use it, and perhaps that will make the case that buying the complete system will pay for itself in X amount of time.

  95. Jenna*

    Reference question-
    I recently quit my job in home state because I wanted to marry my boyfriend from another state. I am an introvert person and NEVER discussed my private life with colleagues. So my co-workers were surprised that I even had a boyfriend. Things changed and we have called off our marriage. I am looking for jobs in my home state again. But my ex-colleagues may wonder why an organisation from home state is calling for reference check.
    1) Should I explain my references (ex-colleagues) of my situation? It would be awkward to tell them personal matter all of a sudden. As an introvert I don’t want to. Any advice on what to do or what to say?
    2) What should I tell my potential employer for the reason I quit? Again I feel shy explaining all this and would rather say I quit for personal reason. Any advice on what to do or what to say?

    1. fposte*

      If you didn’t tell your references you were leaving to get married, you don’t need to mention that part; I would, for the heck of it, drop them a note saying “Plans changed and I’m looking in the state after all–I just wanted to let you know for when the reference requests come!”

      On 2) I think “a planned out of state move didn’t come off” should cover it nicely. It’s also possible you won’t get asked.

    2. some1*

      In both cases, just say that you had planned to move but it fell through. It doesn’t matter why you were planning to move or why it fell through, really.

    3. overeducated and underemployed*

      You quit because you are moving back to your home state. That is also why you are looking for jobs there. If they ask why, personal or family reasons.

  96. Anon Accountant*

    I wanted to thank everyone again for helping me edit my cover letter (posted a few weeks back). I’m applying for a few jobs and will update as to how it goes.

  97. whataweek*

    Help! My senior manager (two levels up) has just invited me to a fairly high-level strategy brainstorming session. No problem, except that he didn’t invite my direct manager…who would be the one responsible for managing the outcomes of this meeting.

    What are some scripts I can use to suggest to him that my direct manager should probably attend this meeting (rather than me)?

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      This is not necessarily unusual. Sometimes organizations want to bring in fresh perspectives for these types of meetings. They purposely invited you and not your manager. I do not think you should tell them who they should invite. They know who they want there and it is you! That is great. Prepare for the meeting and speak-up (that is why you are being included – they want to hear from you) and don’t worry about your manager not being there.

      1. whataweek*

        I suppose one other thing I should have mentioned for context is that my direct manager (fairly new in the organization) is a bit paranoid about being “undermined” by what she tends to perceive as the “old timers” in the organization. Even though I didn’t send the meeting invite, I predict that her exclusion from the meeting will blowback on me.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Maybe he only wants you there? The only thing I might ask is why Fergus wasn’t there if it doesn’t become obvious in the meeting.
      Go and observe. You don’t have all the information yet and doing something that suggests your senior manager might be wrong before you have all the information isn’t the best move.

    3. Thinking out loud*

      I think you should try to add your manager because you said you’re Vicente he would be unhappy otherwise but don’t think that you should try to get yourself uninvited. “This looks like the kind of thing [direct manager] would be interested in. Do you mind if I invite him too?”

      1. Thinking out loud*

        Really? Vicente? That should be concerned. And I see that you referred to the manager as “she” in your comment, so double fail.

  98. Overwhelmed new social worker*

    Last summer I graduated with my Masters in Social Work and have been job hunting ever since. I had a few temporary jobs to help my keep afloat financially, but haven’t had much luck landing a full time position until recently. I was offered a job as a foster care case worker, and I accepted, mostly due to to the fact that I desperately needed a paycheck at this point.

    I started the job a few weeks ago and feel I made a terrible mistake. I struggle with anxiety and panic attacks, and I’ve come to realize that foster care may not be the right path for me. My job is highly stressful and overwhelming, and I don’t even have a full caseload yet. I realize this is my fault for accepting the job, however there were aspects of the job that were minimized or left out during the job interview and hiring process. For example, I was told that the staff rotates covering the emergency cell phone, and I’d be expected to be on call 24/7 for a week every couple months. I was fine with that, however once started I realized that they are severely understaffed, and I will be on call much more frequently than they originally told me. The staff is burned out and my supervisors make me feel like an idiot for asking questions. My anxiety is at an all time high and I’m terrified of making mistakes. I have to talk myself into going to work in the morning and have trouble sleeping.

    I’m feeling like a failure, and not sure what to do at this point. To complicate matters, before going to grad school I had a series of temp and short term positions, and two internships for school. I’m concerned if I start looking for another job I will look flakey and like a job hopper. I’d appreciate any advice on how to handle this.

    1. NJ Anon*

      You won’t look like a job hopper if you explain that the job was not a good fit. How long have you been there? Maybe you don’t even have to put it on your resume.

      1. fposte*

        “Good fit” doesn’t get you out of the job-hopping look, but grad school does. From a social work standpoint, this is the only short-term job you’ve had, and NJ Anon is right that you’re not obligated to put this on your resume.

        I suspect that what you’re experiencing isn’t uncommon in social work and other helping professions–that what you actually have the capacity to do isn’t as broad as you might have expected, and that the infrastructure in these underfunded areas is often no help. So please don’t feel like a failure–that’s a job that would overwhelm a lot of people.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Being new at this and fresh out of grad school is a good enough excuse. Start looking right away.

      My husband went through something similar – he got his master’s in counseling and took the first job he was offered, at a teen psych hospital. It was terrible, a bad environment, bad management, highly stressful (and he struggles with anxiety) and he left about six weeks later. He was as honest as he could be with subsequent interviews about it being a bad fit (and got another job a month or so later). You’re still trying to find the way you want to use your degree; you don’t get too many chances but right now, I think you’re still OK. Try to make sure the next one is a really good fit so you can stay for a few years, though.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same thing happened to my mum when she got her Psy.D. The first job she got SUCKED. She actually got let go–and was really upset about it, but I told her it was a blessing in disguise and that people survive being let go all the time. After that, things got much better for her, though she had to move to find a better job because there just wasn’t anything in the area where we lived.

  99. TCO*

    Just discovered Zapier this week and it’s awesome. If you rely on a lot of mass-market apps/programs (Google products, Todoist, Evernote, SurveyMonkey, Dropbox, etc.), you might like it too!

  100. Pokebunny*

    I have been wondering how do people start their first few jobs when they are green and have no experience. I have a degree in X, and my internship is in X, so I am only looking for jobs in X. Is it possible to look for jobs in Y, if Y is only tangentially related to X? If I’ve been paying attention to AAM, it seems that changing careers is only an option if you already have a ton of experience (and therefore transferable skills) and an astounding cover letter. Am I being pigeonholed into X as a fresh grad with just internship experience (I don’t mind really, but more options are always better)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, even when you have more working experience, switching careers isn’t that easy. You absolutely get pigeonholed. I think you should hedge your bets and apply for jobs in X and in Y (if Y is, in fact, tangentially related to X). Someone in Y might take a chance on you.

      1. Pokebunny*

        I agree. I’ve been applying to Y too, but they’re tech jobs, so hard skills matters quite a bit, and I just don’t have the professional experience to show the hard skills in Y. I just wonder how people (in my country) get into fields completely different from their degrees straight out of college (degree in chemical engineering working in an investment banking firm).

    2. AnotherFed*

      As a fresh grad, I would say you are much less pigeon-holed. It’s an easy explanation that your internship in X was not interesting to you as a career path because of whatever, but you still learned tangentially-useful things. Entry-level positions expect to have to teach/train a lot, especially in technical fields where people have academic experience with tools/skills but not real world practice.

    3. KW10*

      Focus on transferable skills – i.e. what you learned in X that can be applied to Y. Things like writing skills, attention to detail, customer service, etc. (search for transferable skills on AAM or on Google and I’m sure you’ll find better examples.) In your cover letter, be sure to explain why you’re interested in Y – if you can point to something demonstrating that (even volunteer work), that’s much better. The difficulty is that for entry-level jobs, you’ll be competing against people with similar levels of experience but more focused on Y. If you end up getting a job in X, don’t take that to mean you can never change careers. I worked in a field I didn’t love for a few years out of college, then applied to fairly entry-level jobs in a field I liked better and was surprised to find that I was getting a lot of interviews. I got one of those entry-level jobs and was able to move up fairly quickly.

    4. BRR*

      I think career switching is easier at your stage. Switching when you’re older brings with it expectations of salary and responsibilities from employers.

  101. Anonymous Educator*

    What can you do if you’re just not passionate about your work? Does it matter if you’re not passionate?

    I don’t think it matters. I think it matters if you’re passionate about something, but it doesn’t have to be work. Some people are fortunate enough to get fulfillment from their work. You just have to get fulfillment somewhere.

    The thing is, I have very little motivation to do anything else.

    Do you mean you don’t want to go through the trouble of switching careers, or do you mean that while you’re doing this job, you don’t have the motivation to pursue other interests (painting, hiking, writing a novel, etc.)?

  102. NotMe*

    What do you say to colleagues who are being laid off? And when do you say it? We are currently going through lay-offs and I have several colleagues (not really work friends) that I see daily and we all know they are being let go. There is the general, “I wish you well” and “it has been a pleasure working with you” but that is really all I have and I will continue to work with these individuals for several weeks. I don’t want to make it more awkward than it already is.

    1. fposte*

      You say it once when you hear and once at their farewell, and in between you don’t talk about unless they really want to.

  103. AnnaMariaVetter*

    I’m feeling really guilty about leaving my current job and am wondering if I’m making the right decision?

    Within a week of graduating with a literature degree, I landed a job at an investment firm in a big city as their receptionist and office assistant. My parents weren’t willing to help me out so I needed to take the first thing that came my way. This job is actually very good. It pays about 60k with overtime and is dead easy.

    However, I really want to be in HR, which is my main interest. I find this job stifling and almost oppressive. I literally have nothing to do for hours of the day–the phone rings once a half-hour. A lot of the investment professional employees barely acknowledge me or ignore me. The administrative staff also treats me in a fairly condescending manner. I’ve worked a lot of retail and I can deal with the condescension, though. It’s really the boredom that kills me. I ask for extra work daily and mentioned my desire to take on more at my (perfect) performance review. The thing is, even if I eventually get more projects and am promoted to administrative assistant–that’s not really what I want to do. Besides, I do feel that I am overqualified for the role, having interned and worked at much more challenging jobs in the past. I also went to a university ranked 17th in the world.

    I’ve been here about 10 months.

    On a whim I applied to a role as HR/Recruiting Assistant with a rapidly expanding trading firm. I would be working directly with the HR Director and COO to help develop their recruiting efforts and build their HR department (it is a young company). The pay is only slightly less with potential for a 10-20k bonus. I got the job!

    They said I could give my current job 3 weeks of notice. I think I am going to take the offer, but I am feeling horribly guilty for leaving a job that has treated me very well for no other reason than it doesn’t challenge me. I’m 23, by the way.

    Is this the right move? Should I feel badly?

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      Of course you should take it!! You have an opportunity to break into the field you are interested in. Many people find breaking into HR difficult. Your current company has treated you well, which is wonderful, but if you aren’t being challenged, aren’t interested in that work and don’t have a clear career path that will get you into something you want to do then you don’t owe your company anything. Companies understand that people leave jobs. Especially for a very good reason, which you have.

      Good luck and welcome to the HR family! :)

    2. NJ Anon*

      Right move, don’t feel bad. People change jobs all the time, it is to be expected.

    3. Meg Murry*

      Take the job! Say thank you to whoever hired you and that you have been well treated but are looking to move on. Spend your 3 weeks notice writing up a procedure manual for whoever replaces you (this is how you transfer calls. The UPS pickups go here, the FedEx pickups go there, etc) so you leave on a good note, and more on happily.

    4. Anna*

      Congratulations! I agree with everybody else–accept the job. Not just because it’s the area where you want to work in, but because you will get to help build the HR department. That’s a great opportunity that you might not have again.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        This!

        (And on another note, depending on which city you live in, I’d be happy to take the $60k gig off your hands. :) )

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is probably how you got this job, your predecessor moved on for similar reasons. Go!, enjoy and congrats.

    6. BRR*

      It’s business, not personal so don’t feel bad. Echoing others. You get to help build the HR department (looks really good on a resume). People change jobs all the time.

  104. Dulcinea*

    i work in a unionized workplace and have been elected to the union leadership. I want to create a simple website/forum for employees to log on and discuss workplace issues. Also available on this website would be some basic documents people might want to refer to – our union contract, certain health insurance information, etc. It would have to be something accessible only by logging in .

    Does anyone know of a free/cheap service that would set this up for me? I know nothing about making websites and I’d rather not have to learn much. Or, anyone think this is a really bad idea for reasons I haven’t though of? For what it’s worth, it is a pretty small workplace and I am pretty confident my co-workers are professional enough to refrain from posting anything really offensive or inappropriate. All suggestions and advice appreciated.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I could be wrong, but I think that this is what Microsoft SharePoint is all about. Prices vary on what you need, but it’s about $5/month per user.

      1. LQ*

        About 75% of my job is working with SharePoint, while it can secure, I don’t wish it on anyone, except people I hate who think they are super tech savvy, because I’m a horrible person.

    3. LQ*

      I can think of a bunch of reasons for not doing this. Does your union have some kind of an attorney that works with you? If so I’d chat with them first to make sure you aren’t putting yourself in any potential trouble that way.

      How secure do you need it to be?

      (I think putting up your contract/insurance info/etc is a FANTASTIC idea, and there is no real need to keep that behind a wall is there?)

    4. Meg Murry*

      Do you already have logins/email addresses? Is there any way to work with your IT department to tie it in that way, rather than creating a separate outside system you have to manage.

      My concern is that managing logins and passwords for people is a nightmare – we have a web portal, and the poor woman in charge is constantly getting calls because people can’t log in – most of the time it is because they forgot their password, although they swear they didn’t and have it right. And how would you manage keeping track of who is no longer there and should have their login removed?

      Also, what is so secret that it needs to be behind a login? If it’s that secretive, it probably shouldn’t be on the web at all, especially not behind a free/cheap service.

      Can you contact the national union and ask for advice? Chances are you aren’t the only branch of the national to have thought of this.

    5. Dulcinea*

      Thanks for all the comments, everyone. The reason we would want to have it behind a login is so people can discuss concerns without those conversations coming up when our organization is googled. We are spread out over a wide geographic area and in-person meetings are really hard to organize. I feel like a centralized dialogue would (maybe?) reduce some of the rumor mongering and misinformation that results from the current system of “whisper down the lane.” We also have an important vote coming up and I want people to be able to have meaningful conversations about it so they can come to the big annual meeting feeling like they can make an informed decision on how to vote. There are about 30 people involved total. One thing I didn’t think of was the constant resetting of passwords issue! That would be a PITA.

      To be clear, as a member of the leadership, when leadership has a message for the members we try to get it out promptly and delivered in writing to their private emails, and the member ship has contact information for their elected leaders for when they have questions. The purpose of the web forum would be to facilitate dialogue among members.

      1. Dulcinea*

        (And I intend to ask the national org about this but there are some issues with our rep there so I wanted to look into it separately)

      2. Semi-nonymous*

        Could you setup web meetings through WebEx, etc? Or conference call-in meetings? When I was in a union, one of the items in the contract was that supervisors could not prevent employees from attending the once-a-month meeting (so if coverage was required, the supervisor had to find a non-union member to cover the desk or phones).

        I personally would start with a Google Doc/Google Group for the things that wouldn’t be so bad if they got out onto the web (the contract, insurance info, etc) and wait a little while on the forums. Because the other part of the forums is that if you didn’t monitor them constantly, the could provide an even faster way for incorrect rumors to spread.

      3. LQ*

        What about something like an FAQ that people could send in questions for and get feedback on?

        I think for some of the more back and forth things something that was like a webex/video call (you might even record and save) would be a good idea. Especially since that would let you correct misconceptions right away.

        A forum is likely to require constant heavy monitoring. Even with only 30 people. Even behind a key. Even something like an opt in or opt out email group.

        One thing I would strongly recommend against is trying to do this anywhere at/with the employer. The union is a separate entity and you don’t want to have the business have control over your union space.
        (WordPress might be a nice easy way to get started on putting some of the public things out there, but I do think talking to the national org will help a lot.)

    6. Anna*

      I would wait until you lead the union for a while before you decide on starting the forum, just so you get an idea of who/what you are dealing with. The union leaders I know deal with some pretty crazy stuff and receive long ranting emails on a daily basis.

      I know a lot of people who use livebinders.com. I think you can set it up so that it’s private, but I’m not positive. If you mostly want to share documents, you can set up Google accounts and have shared folders.

  105. Meg Murry*

    Just got back from a work conference that involved cross country travel. Mad props to all of you road warriors – this trip kicked my a$$ so hard, I could not keep this up regularly.

    Regarding the conference: anyone here been to any industry conferences that did anything especially well or uniquely that worked? Or anything that really fell flat? We’ve been asked to give feedback and I wondered if there was anything new under the sun to recommend?

  106. Rachel B*

    Long time lurker…and I’ve even had a letter answered here! Here’s my current thing…

    I’m not sure what to do. My husband and I work closely together (not unheard of in our industry), and we have over the course of a couple jobs. We currently work for a company that allows us to save a huge amount of money, but it’s slowly killing our souls, plus it’s 6-8 months away from home at a time.
    I was just offered a possible opportunity for both of us to work together in a position that is more in line with what we’d like to do, but the pay might choke us out and drain our savings. Plus it’s only for the summer, as opposed to the recurring 6-8 month contracts for the soul-crushing, yet well-paying job. It’s possible that it will open more opportunities in line with our goals in the future.
    I’m scared about what to pick. we’re still young, and we do have savings…is this the time to make a choice like this (and possibly make a huge mistake)?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think Plan A is long-term workable. How long would you have to do Plan B, and what’s Plan C? How bad is the pay at Plan B–is it really impossible to downsize or move to live on it? Will it springboard you for a trajectory in Field B or is it a one-off?

      1. Rachel B*

        So I work in entertainment. Job A is more like Theme Parks and Cruise Ships. Flash and Trash stuff, but isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Job B is working in a real theatre, and with children. This uses our skills in a similar, but different way. This is what we really want to do, and the guy who offered it to me has many, many contacts throughout the country.
        Job B is temporary, just the summer. They pay our housing, and travel. The problem isn’t living expenses; I can live off rice and pasta lol. It’s our other bills I worry about: student loans for both of us, my car payment (only a few more thousand! lol), our insurance.

          1. Rachel B*

            I could, but I have a contract lined up now that is have to back out of, and I’m afraid I’ll be burning a bridge, even though I’ll give them plenty of time to find someone else. I think I’ll have to find something Job A-like, if not Job A itself.

        2. Meg Murry*

          Can you take Job B, and look for a Job A contract to follow Job B to make up for the lost income from the Job B timeframe? And then while on Job B talk to the guy who offered it about future Job B-like contracts? Any way you could swing this into doing Job B type work in the summers and Job A work the rest of the year until you can land longer term Job B work?

          Also, if your student loans are federal, could you apply for a deferment for the Job B time since you won’t be paid as much then? If you have savings, could you calculate how far they would dwindle if you had to make your insurance, car payment and loan payments out of that? Could you do something radical like sell the car?

          1. Rachel B*

            I did have a contract lined up right when this job will start. I’m also afraid I’ll burn a bridge by backing out, even though it’s months out, and no one has signed anything (they’ll have time to find someone new, I’m not worried about that). I could find something Job A-like, I’m sure. And that’s another option.

            It might just be that I fear change a little bit…which I suppose is a detriment for the entertainment industry.

            If we’re frugal enough, we might be able to make all payments with only a slight dent in the savings account.

        3. fposte*

          And in addition to Marina’s question, can you make a plan C? Your life is not either the job you have or this job you’ve been offered. Is there a job you can move to that doesn’t require all the travel and that pays reasonably if not as well as job A? Could you look for one and consider that after job B?

          1. Rachel B*

            We’re also looking at some Plan C options. My husband recently applied to a 9-5 job that’s still very related to our field, and would be delighted to accept.

            I also think I’ve sent out about 50 resumes and cover letters for work over the next few months.

            It’s just nerve-wracking, like all job searches.

        4. Anna*

          Spending 6-8 months on a cruise ship sounds like hell. It sounds like you are ready to transition, and if you have the savings to back you up, then why not go for it? You could tell Job A that you and your husband want to settle down and start a family, which may or may not be true, but it sounds better than “This job is killing me!”

          I wouldn’t count on the Job B Boss’s contacts for further employment though–I’d start planning for what happens after summer as soon as possible. If there aren’t a lot of jobs, maybe you two could start your own business or non-profit. Some states have arts organizations that will assist you in grant writing, etc.

          1. Rachel B*

            We’ve been doing ship stuff for about 4 years now. We are ready to move on. We’d planned on doubling our savings before we moved on, but this kind of came out of the blue…ish. And yeah, I probably wouldn’t write to my boss about how I really feel about ships.

            I wouldn’t count on Boss B’s contacts, but the industry is so small that people would probably but quite a bit of weight on a reference from him.

        5. Silver Radicand*

          I really curious, does this job involve doing one week musicals? Where you come into town cast, practice and perform it in a week?

          We had a pair of folks come through our town and do that and it seemed like they really enjoyed it.

          1. Rachel B*

            I actually know about that program! I was offered that a few years ago, but both people have to act and direct sometimes, and my husband would rather chew glass than perform lol. That was a couple years ago though, so maybe…

  107. LBAI*

    I’m a new manager at a very large international company, and I’d like to ask for the group’s advice on how to word something. At my company, there is a trend of not firing problem employees, but rather passing them along to the next department. This practice drives me BONKERS! I would very much like to not be part of this particular problem, and also not fall prey to someone being passed along to me. So, what’s the best way to find out from another company manager if this person is a superstar or a problem? Is there a “face-saving” way to ask the question? And likewise, if it were my problem employee going on to another department, what’s a professional way to warn them of any issues?

    1. NJ Anon*

      I would just straight up ask! I feel your pain. I have worked at places like this before and it drives me nuts as well.

      1. Grumpy*

        I currently work with just such a bouncing problem employee. Omg. I need to start expensing the wine and hairdressing appointments to cover the grey hairs I now have because of this…

    2. Anna*

      I’ve technically warned someone about one of my employees before, but the reason I did it was because I wanted the transfer to be successful for both parties. I said something like, “Lumpy Space Princess is a good worker and has great customer service skills. I felt that she did her best work when she was given clearly defined tasks with deadlines. She is social and outgoing, but has a strong personality and several opinions about how things should be done. I found that she works well alone or with a partner who is very easy-going and doesn’t get offended easily.”

      As for the new employee coming to my group, I might say something like, “Can you tell me a little bit about the Ice King’s working style and preferences? I want to make sure that his transition into our group is successful.”

  108. LisaLee*

    I just went to the weirdest job fair. Highlights:

    -The Army recruiter who would NOT leave me alone, even after I told him repeatedly that A) I had no interest in joining the military and B) I was certainly not going to enlist after a college degree and multiple years in the workforce. He kept repeating that they wanted more women and I was like…this is not how to do it, then?

    -The recruiter for a multinational corporation that told me that advertising was “too specific a field” so they didn’t have positions for that.

    -And the one that took the cake was the man from a small local company who was trying to sell me on his company being “fun!!” Apparently every afternoon the whole company gets together and does “fun” things like hotdog eating contests, truth or dare, and dance parties. I think he saw the horror on my face because he then switched to talking about how great their food truck was. This company has nothing to do with food.’

    I knew going to this fair would be a bit of a long shot, but sheesh. On the bright side, I had a good conversation with a woman from a company I *am* interested in, but they’re not hiring at my preferred location right now.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Military recruiters are interesting people. Back in the day I was in the top ten of my graduating class. I got at least 5 different books touting the advantages of being a West Point graduate. I even got a call from their recruiting office. No was not an answer they wanted to hear.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I also got the military hard sell! Someone is teaching this, somewhere, because the recruiter was actually a really nice dude and well known at my high school. But the second I graduated, BAM, he was at my doorstep and pushy as all hell. It was like he’d been possessed by the ghost of a Kirby salesman, except for the military.

        “Soooooo.” (really insinuating voice) “What are YOUUUUU going to do after high school?”
        “Oh, I’m going to (college).”
        “Coooooollllege.” (sneer). “And how do you plan to pay for that?” (smirk)
        “Oh, I have scholarships and financial aid–”
        “Oh. I see. Schooolllllarships.” (scoff)

        And so on in that vein. Does this work on people?

        1. De Minimis*

          I got it a lot when I was a senior in high school–we were required to take the ASVAB and I scored well on parts of it, so I kept getting hounded by Navy recruiters.

          BTW, is it still common to make high school students take the ASVAB test?

          1. ACA*

            The only high schooler I know who took the ASVAB is my nephew, who’s planning on going into the Navy anyway.

          2. Kelly L.*

            We didn’t, but I have no idea what was standard elsewhere, or what’s standard now. I graduated in the 90s.

          3. Anna*

            We weren’t forced to, but I did. I remember getting a 13% on the mechanical section of the test. I think the only question I got right was “What type of screwdriver would you use on this screw?”

            1. De Minimis*

              I think it may be a regional or small town thing to have students take it, I went to a small town high school in the southern Plains.

      2. LisaLee*

        Yeah, in high school I was top of my class and got a very good ACT score, so I was getting phone calls left and right! I thought I’d be done with it after college, though.

        This guy didn’t even know anything about me, either. He was just very obviously pouncing on whatever women happened to be there.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Yeah, I finally got it to go away after I told one of the recruiters that I would revoke my American Citizenship and move back to Canada before I’d go to West Point.

          1. Anna*

            Good choice. I had a friend who went to West Point her freshman year, and she hated it, because according to her, it was too militaristic. Well, yeah. I’m not sure what she was expecting.

      3. Ama*

        Heh, I did also, but unbeknownst to me I had the perfect out. This is basically the conversation I had with almost every branch of the armed forces:

        Recruiter: “You know the Army has a program in just about any degree you might be interested in.”
        Me: “Oh, well I’m planning on majoring in dance and being a ballerina.”
        Recruiter: “…. Well, uh, good luck with that then.”

        I actually ended up majoring in English, but when my plans changed I wasn’t about to tell the military that.

    1. lfi*

      all of our offices are having some sort of social (ice cream here!) and we all got branded items on our desk when we came in today.

      2. Anna*

        I wish someone would bring me some ice cream, preferably a Frosty. Being sent home early would be acceptable too.

  110. Cruciatus*

    My boss is Dolores Umbridge. She’s back from a week off that a coworker and I were hoping would chill her out (a few weeks ago I got a letter from her with all the ways I’ve been lacking and my coworker frequently gets yelled at for helping faculty too much or not asking for help in situations neither he nor I realized help was needed in the first place). Anyway, every time I check back into my email today, there is a new decree of some sort telling us to do things that were perfectly fine in a new, more time-consuming way. She is micromanaging her good employees out the door! My coworker is already looking but I’ve only been here 7 months so feel I need to stay longer. The benefits are good and it took me 1.5 years to even get this job. But…gah!

    2. Ama*

      Do you have anyone above her that you and your coworker could drop a discreet word to on the way out the door? Or do you have a centralized HR exit interview? Academia seems to be particularly bad about letting problem managers fester, possibly because it’s so easy to manage up and hide how much your reports hate working for you, but every now and then someone finally notices and takes action.

  111. Marketeer*

    Has anyone ever gone on an interview where the interviewer basically talks the entire time about themselves/the company without letting you get a word in? In the past few months, I have dealt with 2 interviews like this. I don’t know how it’s possible for them to get to know people by interviewing like this. I am generally pretty good about incorporating relevant information when interviewing and it’s a conversational tone; but I’m clueless on how to deal with interviewers like this. Is this normal? Do I need to be more aggressive in conversation?

    1. Kelly L.*

      Yyyyyyeeeep. I didn’t figure it out, sadly. I also didn’t get that job, but it was a bullet dodged because he really wanted to pay 1 salary to do 2 jobs. Not that the two problems were related, but still, it was a bullet dodged.

      1. Marketeer*

        I didn’t get either job, but I’m thinking it was a red flag and dodged a bullet also.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I did and I took the job and after 4 months I really regretted it. Now I’m hoping that those two and a half years of my life will just be forgotten and all of the bad habits developed out of necessity will just go away.

      1. Marketeer*

        That makes me feel better that I didn’t get an offer from either. My friends said it was a good thing and I’m beginning to think they were right.

    3. Rabbit*

      Companies like that usually, in my experience, just need a person to do the job–not a great employee, or even a qualified employee–just a person. Let them hire someone else to do it.

  112. GOG11*

    A coworker who is very difficult (and not just to me, though I’m the person he works with most closely) just announced his retirement. I will refrain from going into the myriad reasons why, but I am SERIOUSLY. SO. HAPPY. This person is MISERABLE and takes it out on others and it’s such a win-win. I don’t even care that there will be more work for me to have to juggle as a result.

    SQUEEEEEE!

  113. Fawn*

    Would anyone involved in the career or academic counselling field be willing to tell me a little bit about hiring norms in the field (especially in Canada, but I’d love to hear from elsewhere as well!)

    – what led you to the field?
    – was it challenging to break into your role?
    – what do you like/dislike about it?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      On the off-chance that you’re still reading, I have done both academic advising and career counseling for most of my career. While I can’t speak to Canada, I can say that the norms are that for academic advising are master’s degree in counseling, student personnel, higher ed admin, etc. sometimes it’s also other liberal arts degrees, esp. related to the area that you’d be advising students in (sciences, humanities, social sciences, communications, etc.)

      I broke in a zillion years ago (right time, right place situation) without a grad degree. I subsequently got a degree in an one of the liberal arts degrees listed above, not a counseling degree). There are a lot of PhD’s who are looking at alt-ac careers in academic advising (because they know the field, the institution, higher ed in general, etc.) for the stability/benefits. I would look at the national academic advising association for resources, education, job listings, etc. I suspect it’s a lot more challenging now to get in than when I started. I loved working with students, helping them navigate the academic process efficiently, turning them on to intersting classes (making connections and telling them about courses they didn’t know existed that were relevant to their interests)

      Career services has something of a similar track–master’s degrees in counseling, student personnel, social work, higher ed, etc. I’d look at NDCA.org for more info/background/requirements. Same thing as academic advising for me–helping students figure out and articulate what they’re good at and interested in and how to train up for entering those fields. Great field if you’re willing to keep learning (ie, keep current) and like working with students. Lots of variety.

      As I’ve said before, the discouraging part is students who don’t follow through on their action plans (or tell you what they did), or who have unrealistic expectations of what your role is (“find me a job”). That last is fairly rare, but if you’re working in a college or university, that expectation of career placement is coming back again.

      The more experience you have with a particular institution (even as a student) or a particular population, the more likely it is to get a job in a similar field. That said, I’ve seen people who have played heavily on their transferrable experience coupled with legitimate enthusiasm and a willingness to learn new things and who have subsequently landed jobs. In some cases, those people have leap-frogged established professionals. That’s not always the case, obviously, but it does happen (and I’ve been the beneficiary of this myself).

  114. Dangerfield*

    Alison, I’d like to thank you! I wrote into you about three years ago and you (very kindly) told me I was being silly and needed to get over the problem I was having. Thanks to you, I managed to get a much better job and once I was out of the awful environment I really appreciate that you told me I was wrong. I’ve just received a big promotion in that better job, with a big bump in salary, title and leave, and even managed to negotiate my salary up – again, all because I’ve spent so much time taking on board your advice. Thank you so much. You don’t know how appreciative I am.

  115. Anon in nonprofit*

    Oh my goodness, I’m so glad today is open thread day.

    My boss, the ED of our nonprofit, just gave her three weeks notice. I am the Development Coordinator, which is the only other full time staff position for our tiny nonprofit.

    1) Is there anything I can do to speed up the hiring of the next ED? In general I would prefer to leave that to the Board, but, uh, the dysfunction of the Board is the main reason the current ED is leaving. Can I offer to help with some of the admin parts of hiring, like posting job ads? Can I offer suggestions for revising the ED job description?

    2) I give it 50/50 chances I will be asked to be the Interim ED. What should I ask before deciding whether to accept?

    3) What do I need to make sure I get from the outgoing ED in the next three weeks?

    Of course, our annual gala is coming up in May, and I’m sure we won’t have a new ED by then. This is just… very exciting for a Friday……….

    1. Good_Intentions*

      Wow, you certainly have my sympathies!

      What a stressful situation, especially given that you are the only other full-time staff person. Do you expect other staff members will follow the ED’s lead and give notice soon?

      Also, were you caught unaware by the ED’s decision to resign from the organization?

      Forgive me if I’m being too nosy, but I’m incredibly curious.

      Best of luck with the situation and keep the AAM community posted!

      1. Anon in nonprofit*

        I was not caught unaware. The ED has been pretty unhappy here for a long time. The two part time staff members are pretty unhappy too, but… I dunno. I hope they stay. I think how the Board handles the transition will have a big impact on whether they stay or not. If they’re expected to do more work without more pay, I’m sure that would be more likely to push them towards leaving. If they’re treated respectfully and shown they’re valued, I think they’ll stay, though.

    2. LQ*

      When I was at a SUPER tiny nonprofit (also 2 people FT) we hired someone to do the bulk of the search. He came in, lead the board through every step, and handled some of the ED duties in the meanwhile. Basically it was awesome and I would highly recommend it. (My old ED brought him on board while she was in her last few weeks.)

      1. Anon in nonprofit*

        That would be incredibly helpful for us I think, and maybe that’s what I’ll put my efforts towards. We actually are already working with an organizational development consultant who was very active in hiring for my position and has been a huge resource for me. Unfortunately the Board now has a dysfunctional relationship with her as well (go figure, right?) and I doubt that they would either listen to her advice, or that she would be willing to work that closely with them again. But maybe we could find someone specifically for the ED/transition role for a few months.

    3. Anon in nonprofit*

      Oh, and did I mention the founding Board President was also planning on stepping off the Board in May, and there is no President Elect lined up to replace him?

      This is going to be a fun couple of months.

        1. Anon in nonprofit*

          That is absolutely true and something I am working to resign myself to as long as I stay in this job. I do have some hope that since the worst offenders are due to rotate off, and we’ve already got three new board members I really like and a couple others in the pipeline, things could get better there over time. (Although there has been some chatter about how they’ll “just change the bylaws” to allow founding members to stay on the board indefinitely. Let’s just hope that never, ever, ever happens.)

  116. MsChandandlerBong*

    I have a dilemma. A contact of mine referred one of her clients to me. She mentioned that he was a little disorganized, but nothing too egregious. I talked to him, he seemed nice, and the project is interesting, so I accepted. Now I am regretting it. I’ve since come to find out that I am his fourth writer. Every time we talk, he says he’s in a hurry to get the project done, but he never stops coming up with ideas. If he’d just let me write, I’d have the whole thing done in about four days. Instead, he keeps sending me revised outlines with more and more information. The project is never going to get done at this rate. Additionally, my contact has since told me that he changes his mind a lot, jumps from idea to idea, etc. Had I known that ahead of time, I wouldn’t have even take a call with the client, let alone taken on the project.

    Basically, I’m the Leo Marvin of the writing world (bonus points if you get this reference).

    I don’t want to back out because he hired me through a platform where you are rated on your work, and I don’t want him to give me a poor rating for dropping him as a client. However, if I am going to back out, it would be best to do so now before I start writing. Thoughts?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Does your client have a deadline–you said he’s in a hurry to get done? Could you say (nicely), “Joe, you’ve got great ideas — but there is a point where I cannot keep incorporating in all your ideas in a timely manner so that you can get this project done by X, as you requested.” Plus he might want to save some fo those great ideas for future projects, etc.? (Though it sounds like generating an idea isn’t the issue, just sticking with one.)

      1. katamia*

        I like this. I’m similar to Joe in the sense that I’m always coming up with new ideas and wanting to implement them right away. My sense of time is terrible, too, and I often can’t even guess how long something will take me, much less someone else who may be doing work I’m not familiar with at all.

        I’d also suggest adding a sentence like “Please send me your final thoughts by X time, and after that time, I can’t make any more major changes” if at all possible. That gives him a hard deadline to provide any last changes instead of just cutting him off right then and there (which I would be very frustrated by, especially if there were a legitimate last-minute change I wanted). That deadline would give me the chance to do a final review of the idea before locking it in.

      2. MsChandandlerBong*

        There’s no specific deadline, but the project is being sponsored by a company that is eventually going to want to see a finished product so they know their money isn’t being wasted. When I submitted the (revised) outline to him, I did say, “We should finalize this outline before I start writing so I know what to include and what to delete.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you couch it in terms of how it is to his advantage?
      “Joe, part of what you hired me for is to actually finish this task. If more ideas keep getting added, I will never finish. I don’t think that is what you intend. I think that you would actually like to successfully complete this project.”

      1. MsChandandlerBong*

        I’m getting paid per word, but I haven’t written anything yet, so I have nothing (monetarily) to show for the time I’ve spent looking at his revised outlines, talking on the phone with him, etc. If it was hourly, I wouldn’t care; I’d happily bill for every outline and call it a day!

        1. Marina*

          One thing I’ve seen as a common thing for contractors is including a specific number of revisions in your price. In the future I think it’d be very reasonable to include something in your contract like, “$.X word for finished project. 3 outline revisions included, revisions beyond that charged $X/hour.”

          Even with this current project I think you could do that at this point. “Joe, we’ve made X outline revisions so far. I’ll be able to do Y more for you, and if you have revisions after that point I will need to start charging an hourly fee of $Z for further revisions.”

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          So you’re basically getting paid for the project, not the time you’re putting in. I agree with Marina that it’s time to set boundaries with this guy, and I really like her wording.

    4. Mephyle*

      I bet he envisions it taking much longer. I wonder if you told him “I can get this done in four days once we freeze the specs,” it could shift his thinking and motivate him to finalize it and let you write.

  117. QA Lady*

    Just got my first paycheck after having been out on maternity leave for a year and discovered that I got a 4% raise that nobody told me about! That’s at the higher end for a cost of living bump at this company so I’m pretty pleased–my husband also works here in a different department and he got just under 1%.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think our systems are heartless and useless, they aren’t a hand up, they are a kick down. He is right about appointments taking all day. I see it around here. One person told me that they would let themselves starve to death rather than use our food stamp program again. The person said they could not live with being treated that shabbily, it was so degrading that death was preferable in this man’s mind. I hear it over and over. Our country should be ashamed of ourselves.

      1. Undercover for this*

        I can tell you why it takes so long to get an interview for food stamps. My son works for the state and he does phone interviews with people who are trying to either get or understand their benefits (food assistance and other types of government assistance). He has been chastised for working “too fast” on the phone. The state has determined that a typical case should take 20 minutes, so if he can buzz through 2 or 3 calls in that time frame (while still offering good care and help to his clients), he gets marked DOWN on his stats. That’s right, marked DOWN. So people are waiting on the phone for literally hours at a time, but he has to make sure and take only an average of one call every 20 minutes, because otherwise his stats suffer and he gets dinged on his performance.

        It’s ridiculous. He hates it and is trying to get a job as a fireman or a cop because the pay is terrible and he feels bad for the clients who are on hold forever while he is tidying up his paperclips, waiting for time to pass till he can take another call.

    2. fposte*

      Ha–I just posted about that elsewhere today. I disagree with the conclusion, but I think it’s a great article about the bureaucracy of poverty.

      1. Christy*

        Yes! Thank you–I couldn’t articulate it well for myself, and I think we felt the same way.

        Isn’t the big problem with life skills that you don’t have any evidence for them? Like isn’t that why it can be harder for freelancers–because they don’t have coworkers or bosses who can attest to their work in the same way?

  119. Busytrap*

    Hello! This is my first open thread question and I’ve been waiting all week to ask it!

    I’m a solo GC who was the first legal hire for my company, and am about to make my first additional legal hire. This company hired me pretty fresh into my career because they were nervous about creating this position and thought I’d be easier to handle than someone seasoned. It’s been a bit of a bumpy ride because they didn’t really understand what it meant to hire an attorney, but we’re finally at a point where they know and trust me and I’ve built a solid reputation where people come to me proactively for advice instead of re-actively (or well, hiding things from me). I’ve been here a little over four years now, and finally about to meet the experience level where traditionally it would be ok (though still a bit of a stretch) for me to be GC for a company this size, but the work has grown to a point where I really need some help.

    The position I’m hiring for is specialized due to the hiring budget (it makes fiscal sense because we can save some outside counsel spend to help pay for the position), and even though I said I was looking for five years experience, I keep getting applications for folks with 10-15 years. I read this blog everyday, so I don’t want to filter these resumes out automatically (they might be looking for a step back from a big firm!), but I have about 6 years cumulatively and it makes me a nervous to hire someone with more experience. I know that it might be best for my company because it would save more outside counsel spend, I’m also frankly concerned about my own job and managing someone more senior than me. I worry that if I end up disagreeing with someone on the legal advice to give, they might undermine me simply by having more years under their belt. I of course wouldn’t discount their opinion, but there are always different tactics/strategies/interpretations you can make – the law isn’t called gray for nothing! That also doesn’t take into account potential intentional undermining because someone doesn’t want to work for a kid (I’m in my early 30s). I tend to think of law as pretty rigid where if you’re been practicing longer, you’re more senior, but this is my first in-house gig, so I could totally be wrong.

    My question for the hive is — is these concerns valid or am I reeking of imposter syndrome right now? Should I interview these folks? Do I just knock it off because it’s a good thing for the company (even if it’s not ultimately a good thing for me)? Does anyone have any advice/experience navigating this that they could offer? I love my job and the work I do and I’ve fought really hard to be an accepted member of the management team in a very flat organization. I’d hate to have all that undone. Similarly, I want this person to take my day-to-day research projects and small-risk contracts off my desk – any advice on how to screen for this/scripts for letting people know that’s going to be the case (basically, yes, you’ve got 10 years’ experience on me, but you’re still going to need to do my junior associate work because I’m working on the fun, strategic stuff and giving the advice to the board/exec team), and no, you can’t have my GC job in five years because we are super flat and I’m not going anywhere.

    Any help would be appreciated!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Given your experience, could you be happy in a junior position such as this with not a lot of opportunity for advancement?”

      The other half of it comes from you. You have to decide to take control over your own emotions and your own concerns. It will help you to be forthright with this person – the job is what it is. You can’t fix that, nor should you try to hide it. Tell the person exactly what to expect. Then ask if they are still interested. Only pick people that you think will be an asset to you. A friend recently had an opportunity to hire a new employee. It boiled down to a choice between up and coming superstar who would move on in a short while OR a more stationary type person who would do well at the job but probably not want to move on any time soon. My friend chose the second person because she needed someone who would stay with the job.

      My point is that years of experience is only one point of reference. There are numerous points that you should be looking at before deciding. It is possible that you find a person with 15 years experience that has NO interest in advancement and they indicate this with clarity in their interview conversations. Hire the person that you think will stay with the job.

    2. Anna*

      Will you be supervising this person or are you just doing the hiring?

      I’m not a lawyer, but I think your concerns are justified. I agree with the other commenter that experience is just one point to consider, though. You might get someone who has a lot of experience and is perfectly content to play the junior associate. Is it possible that the wording of the job announcement could have been interpreted as “at least 5 years of experience”?

      If you are the one calling for the interviews, I might say something like, “I see that you have a lot of experience in this area. I don’t know if it was clear from the job posting, but this job is a junior level position and there is little room for advancement. Of course, we value experience, but I just want to make sure that this is the type of position you are looking for.” If they are still interested, then schedule the interview, and when they come in for it, make sure to reiterate these points.

      I agree with you that a person with experience would be an asset to the company, but you are also an asset to the company. They wouldn’t be willing to hire another lawyer if you hadn’t worked out so well. Besides, more experience doesn’t necessarily = good. In my field, 30 years of experience can either mean a wise veteran or someone who refuses to use computer.

    3. Renee*

      I worked a temporary position for a GC with significantly less legal experience than I had, though mine was in litigation rather than in house. She was also a lot younger. It was fine. She was still my boss and I was still respectful, but she also solicited my opinion on the more “gray” areas and rather than undermining her, I went out of my way to support her. She is a fantastic attorney and manager and I had the experience to recognize it. We had a good relationship.

      I think a lot is going to depend on personality. I’ve always been perfectly content to be second chair and my jam has always been the writing, forensic, and support stuff. I’ve never really wanted to be in charge, and at the time I was also applying for jobs that were more admin/support in nature. I think your concerns are valid, but I also think some honest discussions (phrased similarly to the way you’ve done it in your question) should help you hire the right fit.

      You might also consider looking at experience that is not exactly on point for the position. I was desperately trying to leave litigation and I will always be grateful that she gave me the chance to move into a different field. It was a long-term temporary position (covering some leaves of absence), so I did eventually have to move on, but I enjoyed the work and would have stayed, and the experience was invaluable for my current position, which is more of an administrative manager position with some in house legal duties.

    4. Vulcan social worker*

      I’m late responding but maybe you will still see this.

      This is a sincere question and not a sarcastic one. You are the lawyer and I am not: is it only an issue with age discrimination if you bring someone in and don’t hire her because she is 40+, or is it a problem if you dismiss her resume out of hand because she is too old/experienced (which is a pretty good proxy for too old)? If you are dismissing people who are 15 years out of law school, aren’t you butting right up against age 40 for anyone who went right out of undergrad, and older if they took off so much as a year? I guess it’s hard to prove the negative of why you weren’t called for an interview anyway.

      This is also pushing certain buttons of mine today. I have an interview coming up and early 30s/40ish are the ages of my interviewer and me, and those are my fears. I have more years of experience in the field; she has a PhD to my master’s and probably lots of other qualifications that I haven’t gleaned from LinkedIn. From the other side, I can’t get too concerned about working for someone younger though — at every job I’ve had, the ED or department director has supervised older employees. In a non-profit that is likely to happen unless the oldest person always gets the promotion or the board only hires someone older than the rest of the staff. I went back to school in my thirties so I had a couple of professors younger than I was and I was able to show them appropriate respect. I just hope the younger interviewer didn’t have to overcome any trepidation about calling me.

      1. Busytrap*

        Thanks for this. Without getting into too much detail, I don’t believe it’s a problem if I’m dismissings omeone because of their level of experience when I’m advertising for a junior position. I have zero concerns with the age of the person; my concern is that it’s a junior level position. I’m looking purely at years of experience, not at age — if someone was in their 50s (lawyer as second career) with five years experience, I’d 100% give them a call.

        Your second paragraph is exactly why I wanted to come here for advice – from reading this blog, I know that there are likely candidates out there that do know it’s a junior position, think they’d still be a good fit, and are genuinely interested and wouldn’t mind working for someone younger. It’s pretty clear who I am if you look me up on LinkedIn. It’s just that we’re a smaller company, flat, and they’d be doing junior level work. I wanted to suss out how to find that person that’s interested and set clear expectations, instead of just denying all applications with 10-15 years’ experience outright.

        And good luck on your interview!

    5. Sutemi*

      IANAL, but I think your concerns are justified. Consider if you instead had 20 years of experience and were looking to hire someone for an opening at the junior associate level. Many of the concerns with hiring an overqualified applicant would still be valid, that they would not be content doing junior level work, would expect higher pay and would expect to move up quickly, would they leave soon while keeping an eye out for a better position. I would screen for cover letters that address they fact that they are overqualified and give a reason why a step backwards is the right move for them.
      There have been several letters here that address what to look for in an overqualified applicant and why a junior person may or may not be better for a particular position.

    6. Busytrap*

      I’m so sorry for the late reply, but want to say thanks in case anyone is still seeing this! I will be supervising the person and doing the hire, so these comments was incredibly helpful. I very much appreciate the scripts and feel better knowing it’s a legitimate concern. Much, much appreciated. :)

  120. CPALady*

    I’d like feedback on whether my irritation with this is valid or invalid.

    My boss (who is the CEO, so everyone’s boss) will pass around articles for everyone in the organization to read. These are typically industry news, trends, etc. There’s a sign off sheet for each person to sign when they’ve read and are ready to pass along to others.

    Occasionally, CEO will send around “Notable Women in the Industry” type of articles. They are interesting, I’m happy to read them. However, it bothers me that CEO marks out all of the male employees’ names on the sign off sheet – indicating that these articles don’t need to be disseminated to and read by them. I’m sure this is well meant and not indicative of any intentional bias by the CEO, etc. The articles are meant to provide great career examples/inspiration. I fail to see how an example of a Notable Women, though, can’t be inspiring, etc. to my male colleagues.

    It reads to me as a little tone deaf and with hints of institutional sexism rather than overt sexism. I’m not aware of Notable Men in the Industry articles that circulate for just male employees to read. Those are disseminated as just normal Industry News articles.

    Are these feelings valid or invalid? Would you say something to CEO that this practice may come off a little tone deaf?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Your feelings are totally valid.

      Whether you should say something to the CEO or not, though, depends on what your relationship is like with him (you don’t say your CEO is a man, but I’m hoping a woman isn’t this tone-deaf in this particular way—I could be wrong). If you feel comfortable, I would definitely say something. Don’t make it a huge deal, but you can just say “That article you sent around was awesome. Maybe next time you should have the men read it, too.”

        1. fposte*

          Maybe I should keep posting this with one more letter removed each time until it is all gone.

    2. Sadsack*

      Uh, that definitely sounds tone deaf, to say the least. Would you feel comfortable asking him his reason for doing it? I wonder if just raising the question will make him realize how wrong-headed it is. I am thinking that as soon as he starts to answer, he’ll realize it…hopefully. Whatever his response, you could say that it would benefit all employees to read those articles.

    3. fposte*

      Ouch. Yeah, I wouldn’t like this either. Whether you actually say anything depends *hugely* on your relationship with the CEO. I could see saying something if it were my dean (though a dozen people would get there before me), along the lines of “I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but the way you circulate the articles about women’s achievements make it seem like their achievements couldn’t be significant to the male employees. What if all the interesting articles just went to everybody?”

      One of the problems, to me, is that I would care less about who saw the articles than I would about the way the CEO was thinking, but I think you can only ask for a change in the articles.

      1. CPALady*

        I have a good relationship with him, and part of why I’d like to say something is that I really think he’s just not realizing how it appears when he distributes the articles this way. He has two adult daughters with professional careers and his wife is a CEO at another company, as well. He’s a little older, but is definitely not A Sexist in any sort of over-the-top way, just in those little hard to change norms kind of way.

    5. Anna*

      When I was teaching, we were required to teach about Black History month. I followed the curriculum and taught pretty much the same topics I learned in school–slavery, the Underground Railroad, the Civil Rights Movement, etc. I noticed that my African-American students were uncomfortable during the lessons, whereas everyone else seemed to be interested in the lesson. (I’m a white woman.) So I explained what I had noticed to my principal, an African-American woman, and asked how I could make the lessons more comfortable and engaging. She told me that despite what the curriculum said, I should include more focus on living African-Americans who are making history rather than on bondage. Also, I found out through subsequent conversations with my African-American students that they already knew all the black history stuff because their parents taught it to them.

      My point in sharing this story is that I wouldn’t have known that I could serve my students better unless someone told me the truth. Even though I have African-American friends and co-workers, I don’t know what it’s like to be one, and sometimes I need them to spell things out for me.

      Your CEO sounds like he does care about the advancement of women, and I think it’d be okay to suggest that men read some of those articles too. Maybe explain to him why. (I bet what will happen is that he will go home and tell his wife, and she’ll say something to the effect of, “Well, duh.”)

  121. Menacia*

    Does anyone work for a company that has telecommuting options for those who work in telecommutable (?) positions that also have some other alternative for those who work in positions where telecommuting is just not an option? I work in a blue-collar industry, we have field personnel as well as office personnel so the culture is that you come to work to work. Even in inclement weather, the company prefers everyone be in the office, but that is just not possible at times. Our department has a system whereby if the weather is bad enough, we have the option to work from home, or take PTO, but this is not a company policy. I think it ultimately comes down to fairness, how do you make telecommuting fair if not everyone can benefit from it?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think everybody has to be able to take advantage of a benefit for it to be fair to offer it, though. And if it’s really that you would like to telecommute sometimes, I’d just start by asking your manager if it were possible.

    2. Marina*

      Fair doesn’t mean “the same”. People who live in a full house without a separate working space, for instance, wouldn’t benefit from telecommuting.

      Or, perhaps another way to look at it, is that pay is not equal throughout your organization. People get paid different amounts depending on the jobs they do. They can also telecommute if and when that works for their job and their department. It won’t work for everyone, nor would it work for everyone to get paid the same amount as the CEO. A benefit can be job-specific and still fair.

  122. Anonsie*

    I’m looking to get a job in another city right now* where my best friend lives. He told me I could stay with him briefly when I first move to find an apartment and also use his address for applying. I have two questions:

    1) If I’m not moving until I get a job, will people think it’s weird/dishonest to use a local address without having a set point at which I’d be there? I have heavily mixed feelings about this, since on the one hand it would be my address at first and I have ties to the city. On the other hand it will only be my address after I get hired, and knowing people’s preference for local candidates I wonder if some employers will feel I was intentionally misrepresenting myself and be put off. It’s one thing if they just want local candidates and don’t continue with me, I’m more worried about leaving a bad impression.

    2) How do I explain the timeline & the why I’m moving bits? I don’t know if “closer to family” fits entirely for living near friends. Mostly I’m tired of my current city, there are many many many more job opportunities in my friend’s city, and when I’ve visited I’ve really liked it there. Not sure how to make that sound less grumpy than “I need a change of scenery.” For the other piece, does something along he lines of “I’m looking to secure employment before relocating” sound ok?

    I’ve job hunted in other cities before and moved around a lot, but it’s always been with a timeline for when I was moving independent of the job and a much more compelling explanation as to why I was going.

    *I mentioned also looking overseas, I am doing this too but also in some other cities in the US.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Here’s the thing practically speaking (ethics aside for now): if you list your friend’s address as your address, potential employers will think that you live there and, more importantly, that if they want to come in for an interview, say, two days from now or two weeks from now, you’ll be available. So crashing at a friend’s place is great if you’re moving in May and staying there May 1-15, with the intention of getting your own place May 15 and onward. But claiming to live at an address you will stay at for two weeks and then move back away from semi-permanently… that’s going to look deceptive to hiring managers.

      1. Anonsie*

        This is what I was thinking.

        On the other hand, if you knew you were going to live somewhere after a move permanently but didn’t have a timeline, no one would bat an eyelash at giving that address. So then my feeling is, I’m not in a different situation than if I was going to be roomies with my friend long term as far as the job is concerned, so why does that seem so different? The part you’re trying to get across is “I have a plan and a place to go and a connection to the city,” and that’s true in both cases. So frustrating to also feel that the address being more temporary eliminates my ability to give the same shorthand as if I wasn’t going to move out right away.

        I can just write that out in my cover letter to some extent but “don’t worry I’m gonna crash my friend’s couch and like we’re SUPER good friends so I am strongly committed to going to this city already” feels way too personal to actually detail.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’ve been involved in hiring out-of-town applicants, and I’ve also been an out-of-town applicant myself, and I think just being up front is the best thing. Just say you’re planning to move there in (just name some rough time like “This summer”) and you will be in town staying with a friend during these two weeks, in case they’d eventually like to do an in-person interview before the summer.

          If I were a hiring manager, that would already give you a leg up on a random out-of-town candidate, because I know you are going to be in town and when… and the fact you’ll be in town at all means it’s less likely you’re completely lying about moving in the future (not impossible but less likely). It also means, without you explicitly pressuring the hiring manager for an interview, the hiring manager knows “Oh, if I do want to interview this candidate, maybe I should shoot to have her come in when she’s actually in town.”

  123. katamia*

    Had an interview this week for a job I was 75% sure I didn’t want but that I was willing to be pleasantly surprised by, but it turned out to be even worse than I’d imagined–lots of unpredictable overtime (including until after midnight on some occasions), where I wouldn’t know when I came in that morning whether I’d need to stay late. They could also call me randomly on weekends for more overtime if they needed me, and I would basically be unable to say, “Oh, I’m busy and can’t make it.” I’m sure I looked horrified in the interview, but they wanted to hire me anyway. It has never, ever been easier to turn down a job offer. Props to them for being clear about this in the interview, though, and in all fairness, a lot of the overtime is based on “We can’t control how much mail we receive on a given day” rather than “Management is totally inept,” although for all I know management could be inept too.

    And now a question: For those of you who do social media-heavy work, do you have some sort of social media portfolio you show potential employers? Do you show them your personal social media profiles, or do you have “dummy” ones that are “personal” but don’t have anything incriminating on them? If you do have a portfolio, does it typically include/could it include work you’ve done for other clients or employers? Or is it enough (to work at a normal, non-boundary-crossing company) to just say things like “I’ve had a profile on X platform for Y years”?

    1. the.kat*

      I’m not sure about others, but I don’t have a social media portfolio. Instead, I take specific posts/strategies that provided results and present them. I’ve found that with social media, saying “I’ve had a profile on X platform for Y years” isn’t as strong as saying, “designed branding standards for all official company users of X platform, ensuring that social media presence was cohesive” or “implemented best practices for tagging partners in Facebook posts, leading to a 20% increase in likes over a period of Y weeks.” That’s been my experience, but I’d love to hear what others have done.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! I’ve been on social media for a long time, but I’ve been having a hard time figuring out if I’m qualified for social media-type positions, and if so, the best way to demonstrate that. It’s helpful to see what’s worked in the past.

  124. I Want to Tell You*

    I want to thank Alison for her fabulous advice, especially in regards to conversations with one’s boss about issues in one’s personal life that bleed into work (because I needed to use that advice this week), and also ask the readers for advice in navigating said issues.

    I used AAM-type wording earlier this week when I had to tell my boss about a potential health crisis I’m facing. I kept it vague and brief, but I let him know that I’m potentially facing something very serious and that I would need time away to tend to my health at some point in the near future and that I’d be applying for FMLA when I get an official diagnosis. (My doctors think I have colon cancer; my gastroenterologist found a tumor during a colonoscopy after I’d complained of rectal bleeding and changes in bowel habits. I’m still waiting on pathology and CT scan results, but the gastro and my colorectal surgeon think the tumor is highly suspicious. Even if it’s benign, I’ll need bowel resection surgery to remove the tumor.)

    My boss thanked me for looping him in, told me to reach out if I need anything, and directed me to HR for the FMLA process. He asked this morning if I knew any thing more, but I have nothing more to share with anyone at this point. (Much like interviewing, I keep telling myself the doctor’s office will call when they call. The waiting is so difficult!)

    Anyway, does anyone have advice on dealing with the FMLA process: What to expect, how it generally works, what your experiences have been, etc. Also, if it is cancer, what’s a good/effective way to inform co-workers? Is it odd to keep things vague, or is being vague okay? I don’t have the best working relationship with some of my department, and I was in fact job searching before all this began. I obviously know not to go into all the details, especially since it’s GI-related, but how much or how little is okay or standard to reveal? What have others’ experiences been with dealing with cancer at work? This is all new to me, as I’ve never had major health problems before this.

    Also, let this be a PSA to get those vague, persistent symptoms checked out, even if you’re young and/or otherwise feel healthy. I’m in my early 30s, and never in a million years did I expect to hear “tumor” or even “polyp”. I was expecting inflammatory bowel disease, based on my symptoms and family history. I’m grateful to have doctors who are very thorough and insist on covering all the bases. My gastro thought it was just hemorrhoids but insisted I have a colonoscopy just to make sure and I’m glad I listened to him, and I’m glad I listened to my primary doctor when she was insistent I see the gastro for my symptoms. Now on with the waiting game…

    1. fposte*

      Ugh. I’m sorry you’re going through this. Good luck with pathology and resection.

      In my workplace, FMLA is easy-peasy. Fill out a form, get a doctor to fill out their part of the form, hand it in. I thought I’d be back earlier than my workplace requires FMLA to kick in last time, and I wasn’t, and it still wasn’t a big deal to get it done while I was out. Hopefully it’ll be as easy for you.

      I think asking how to handle it is a good plan and I think I’d do the same–but don’t feel you have to know for sure or even feel the same way two days in a row. I would probably tell at least close co-workers, because that’s a hard thing to keep to oneself and it can put possible diminished focus into perspective.

    2. CPALady*

      Good thoughts for a better-than-expected diagnosis. I agree that the waiting is very difficult.

      I can’t comment on FMLA because I’ve not used it before, but I would encourage you to share with you coworkers whatever you’re comfortable with. No one is owed a detailed explanation. However, a basic “I have a serious medical situation, here’s a heads up on how long I’ll be out, etc.” is probably just common courtesy. Personally, I’d probably share with my immediate boss and ask him to tell the larger group once I was out of the office for treatment. I dislike the small talk that happens around medical issues, even if it’s mostly meant in the nicest of ways.

  125. Sarah*

    I’ve been in my current job for about 4 years. At the beginning it was hard to adjust as it’s not one that played to many of my natural strengths, but it was interesting and I learned a lot. For a few years I was good at it, once I got the hang of it. Now I’m struggling again. I think it’s a combination of burn-out/boredom and it being something, again, that doesn’t come naturally to me. I’m really good at certain parts of it but as I’m put on more advanced programs, those parts are fewer and farther between. I’m looking for something new but for various reasons it will probably be quite a while. My question is what do I do now – I don’t know how to improve, it just seems like an innate thing that I’m not good at. I am stressed every day and hate going into work and hate that I’m not doing well at it, and that makes it even harder to do the small parts that should be easy. I feel like I need to talk to someone (supervisor or senior coworker) but I don’t have a solution or improvement plan – just “I know I’m not doing well but I don’t know how to fix it.” Any advice?

    1. NJ Anon*

      You may want to your supervisor and see what they suggest. If not, maybe looking for another job will help.

  126. Wendy Darling*

    Can I be another person saying Alison’s advice fixed my resume?

    A week or two ago I changed up my resume to pull out all the bad advice my outplacement company gave me and replace it with AAM-approved-type content. After I started applying to jobs with this shiny new resume, I suddenly started getting calls back. I am now multiple interviews in with two different companies, and far enough along with one that they asked for my references. (I also declined to be interviewed by a third company with appallingly low pay.)

    So basically if you suspect someone might be giving you bad resume advice, you are probably right, and AAM will probably confirm it.

    1. Jonikat*

      After I followed the advice written in this blog, I actually received my first interview request and got my first job (PT) after 6 years of unemployment (due to illness, then going back to school). I wasn’t getting any interviews before changing my resume around with the information found here, even with jobs in the same industry. So thanks to AAM and the commenters!

      I kinda sound like an ad, huh? I swear I’m not! Just grateful.

  127. discarvard*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m a 2014 college grad and have been in retail for over a year. I am trying to get a job in the sciences, related somewhat to my degree, in a non-lab setting. Any advice for how to move from retail into a non-customer- service role? Stories?

      1. discarvard*

        More like entry level bioinformatics, working with data, keeping records, possibly computational research, that type of stuff. I like academic and research settings, just not being the one standing at the lab bench. Although advocacy and product development are areas I don’t know much about and might be interested in.

    2. Anxa*

      Probably not very helpful:

      I’m a 2008 science grad and I tutor at a community college, part-time.

      Colleges with a lot of health science programs tend tend to have a lot of students who aren’t science majors, but have to take a few core bio and other science courses.

  128. SillyOne*

    Hi all! I’ve been at my current job for about a year and a half, and just got a promotion. Yay! The problem is, I’m going to be leaving the company in about a month to pursue a different opportunity.

    My question is, how do I handle this on my LinkedIn/resume? Would it be bad to just sub in my new title? (So, my title for the entire 1.5 years would be Teapot Manager, which is what I was just promoted to?) I feel like that’s kind of misleading, since I was only at that title for a month…but the alternative is separate entries for each title, and that means that the entry for the new title will end up showing only 1 month at that title, which looks a little sad and makes my resume longer.

    Anyone else dealt with this before? Thoughts?

    1. Jubilance*

      How about this: use your promoted title and then when you list your accomplishments, note something like “Promoted from Teapot Analyst, February 2016”. Would something like that work?

        1. skyline*

          I have this situation on my resume. I worked for two years in a civil service setting where positions were numbered to show seniority/level of experience. As in: Analyst I, Analyst II. I included both titles, since I was at the lower one for 75% of my time there, and then added the bullet as suggested above. So:

          Organization, City, State (Start Date-End Date)
          Analyst I & II
          * Accomplishment I
          * Accomplishment II, etc.
          * Promoted to Analyst II on [date]

  129. Kate H*

    My question is about the possibility of negotiating scheduling during a job hunt. I’m currently working a part-time position eight hours a week and I really need something more substantial. I also spend two days a week (one weekday afternoon plus Saturdays) volunteering with a non-profit. The organization depends on me to be there as I’m currently the only volunteer who can do what I do.

    Is there a good way to say “If at all possible, I would like not to be scheduled during these hours but understand if it’s a necessity?” Would something like this make me seem uncommitted or difficult? I recognize that I might have to stop volunteering in favor of my new job but I’d prefer not to. Especially because their work is related to two fields that I’m considering to build my career in. The positions I’d be applying for would all be entry-level, think retail or office without experience.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Do you mean scheduling the hours that you would be working at the new job? Or do you mean scheduling an interview? Are you looking for part time work or full time work?

      1. Kate H*

        Scheduling the hours I would be working. I have plenty of availability for interviewing. I’ll be looking at both part and full-time work, although I imagine a full-time job isn’t going to be flexible.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I guess I would look for a job that closely matched my available days, first. If you are thinking of retail this may or may not work. My second choice would be to have a more flexible range of availability. If I could not find out the hours/days of the job then I would wait to see if they made that preliminary call and ask which days when they called.

  130. fposte*

    Interesting piece at The Billfold (I’ll follow with the URL) called “Life Skills Belong on Resumes.” She’s talking not from the usual SAHP perspective but from the view of somebody who’s had to negotiate the tremendous bureaucracy of poverty, and she’s saying that putting life skills on a resume should be right alongside a living wage as a goal.

    I think she writes very well about the terrific burden being poor in America puts on your time and energy. I don’t think she’s right about the benefit of putting life skills on, though–if it becomes okay, then everybody will put them on, and they still won’t be judgeable; I think people will end up in much the same hiring hierarchies as they are now with just more on their resumes. But I’m curious to hear what others think.

    2. overeducated and underemployed*

      I loved this piece because I think it does such a good job of pointing out the amount of work, skill, and persistence we require of poor people without giving them credit for learning to navigate the systems. I was actually thinking about what people on AAM would say as I was reading it, so funny that I returned here and saw you’d posted about it! What occurred to me was that people here might say resumes are for more objective work experiences and accomplishments, but cover letters would be where someone could tell the story of the incredible qualities they’ve shown in their personal lives that would apply to work.

      However, that’s just a quibble about where you put the experience, what matters is whether it’s valued. For example, her dog walking experience was something she was quantifiably successful at in a professional capacity (I mean, I’m really impressed that she could earn $40K doing that, there must be great numbers to fill out a resume there!), but she talks about hiring managers being put off by it because it’s not “professional” enough. Navigating bureaucracy, persistent follow-up, financial management, etc. are skills you can tell stories about, but if the stories are poverty stories, she’s right that we’re socialized to put negative instead of positive value on those.

  131. Yetanotherjennifer*

    This isn’t for work, but I’m hoping some of the professional fundraisers can help. I’m involved in starting a Lego robotics league at my daughter’s school and my job is to find the funds. I’ve written one grant application and am looking for other sources of funding. Someone recommended a local foundation for which I need to write a request letter instead of a grant application. Can anyone point me to a good resource for writing this type of letter? Or can you provide a sort of paragraph by paragraph formula? All I can find for examples are letters to a bunch of anonymous donors; like a food shelf writing to the community. I’m targeting a specific foundation. Thanks!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have done a tiny bit of grant work, others are more familiar with it than me. Why not start by calling them up and asking them what types of information they need? I have done a little work on both sides- giver and recipient. I have always been glad to talk people through the grant process and people are usually happy to help if I am on the other side as the recipient or representing the recipients.

      Local people are much easier than other sources. They basically want to know if your project is successful, what will that success look like? How will it benefit others? The applicants I have spoken with usually as the same general questions, so if you can think of questions, someone else probably has asked those questions, also. The people running the grant are used to this stuff.

    2. ginger ale for all*

      The library that I work at is a member of the Funding Information Network and that means (for us) we have an online database that is open to the public who can come in and research funding opportunities. We even have a librarian who specializes in helping our patrons use the databases and books in our collection to get grants.

      Google this phrase – ‘funding information network’. Then click on Funding Information Network – Foundation Center (first result. Then on the first page, in the center column, look towards the bottom at the end of their introduction of their program, click on the ‘find your nearest location here’. This will pull up a page where you enter your zip code to find the nearest library that has this network database that you can go in and access.

      This database is all about matching up grant seekers and grant funders. They have resources on how to write your proposal. You may even find more sources for funds than the one you are thinking of. Good luck.

  132. TotesMaGoats*

    This is just a vent because aside from looking for another job, which is what I”m doing, there isn’t much I can do about the situation. I’ve kind of given up. I have no upper management support and I can’t fight WW3 on every little issue. So, you don’t want to change your admit letter to be better and make my life easier, ok. You want to send out a badly worded survey that essentially severs relationships with potential students, no problem. I don’t know if people are just that clueless or are intentionally trying to sink the ship and that goes ALL THE WAY up the chain. Got to get away this place. Hate that I made a bad choice but know there was no way I could know how bad it was ahead of time.

  133. Cruciatus*

    In Excel, is there a workaround for when you have multiple workbooks open and want to undo changes to only one document and not all the changes you’ve made collectively since you’ve had the multiple workbooks opened?

    1. Van Wilder*

      I don’t know if this helps but if you open multiple instances of excel and keep each workbook in a separate excel.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Ha ha ha!

      I have been using Excel forever and just recently was so embarrassed to discover how this is easily done. Open a different instance of excel for each workbook. It’s just that easy.

  134. Anonsie*

    I have a follow up question.

    How do you negotiate salary when moving from nonprofits to for profits, or when you were very underpaid before, if an employer likes to play the base-it-off-your-last-salary game? Let’s say the “I’m looking for something in the $X range” didn’t deter them from pressing about your previous salary.

    For the record I’m talking a big difference in salary, like 20-30% higher on the for profit side. Enough that I find it hard to believe that an employer who wants to know past salaries would be totally cool with actually giving me the rate they should/would give most people.

    I can be very rough around the edges and I find this is even less well received than normal because I’m a petite female and people REALLY don’t like pushy short women, let me tell you. So my natural inclination is to very frankly say it was a nonprofit in a budget crunch, it had a much more limited scope than the jobs I’m going for and that’s why I’m leaving there anyway. It was un-challenging and underpaid (in more eloquent terms) and I’m looking for a higher responsibility gig in a higher paying industry. But I feel like pressing that at all is gonna get me tossed for being out of line.

    FWIW I am qualified for these other roles, by the way, the skills and experiences are overlapping but the nature of the work is shifted. These are in tangentially related industries, health care to pharma.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I forget who originally said this, but “When someone tells you who she is, believe her.” If the employer is being this pushy about finding out your previous salary and then low-balling you in the offer, that tells you what kind of employer you would be working for if you took the job. Do you want that employer?

      Now, I know we don’t always get to be picky in our job searches. Sometimes you just have to pay the bills. The extent to which you can be picky, though, consider that pushiness/stinginess a red flag and a mark of things to come (Will you get a raise? No. Will the benefits be generous? Probably not.).

      1. Anonsie*

        Generally I would give this advice to others, but I’m in a work situation I need to get out of yesterday so I’m more willing to go somewhere that might have this kind of culture than if I was looking with a more relaxed pace. So on the one hand yes, on the other hand I’m more lenient with this type of shenanigans right now than I probably should be.

    2. Marina*

      If they insist on a specific number for your past salary, I think it’d be fine to say, “My last salary was $X, and one of the reasons I’m seeking a new opportunity is because I am looking for a salary in the range of $Y.” It’s not being pushy to let them know what you’re looking for, if you let them decide whether or not they can give it. Saying you want $Y salary doesn’t guarantee you’ll get it, but if that’s what you’re looking for then you’re not going to accept a job at $X salary anyway so you’ve got nothing to lose.

      1. Anonsie*

        Oooh thank you!

        I don’t think I’m pushy but some people sure do. I’ll be straight with you, though, I am a level of assertive that would still stand out if I were an average sized dude and would still be negatively received here and there. Just not nearly so often as now, and never with such gendered descriptors I’m sure.

        1. Anonsie*

          Also your pitch in that post is very similar to what I wanted say, so this is good. My concern was that it would more often be taken as delusional, but hey: WWAMWMD?

          I’m sure for some hiring managers they’ll still have a lingering bias that I can’t be worth more if I did it for less before, but you can’t convince everyone.

          1. Mreasy*

            I had to deal with this situation (not non-profit to for-profit, just severe underpayment to a realistic salary) by simply saying, when asked about my current salary, “I’m being unrealistically underpaid right now, and while that’s not the only reason I want to leave, it’s one of them. The salary I’m looking for is $X.” I got the job. I’m also quite assertive, and knew I was an excellent candidate for a very niche position/field so ymmv – but when it comes to this type of situation, if you can make it clear that the salary you previously made is unrelated to what you’ll accept now, you’ll be on the same page. Also assertive women of any height FTW! :)

  135. Anxa*

    I’m about to turn 30 and am kind of freaking out. I have never had a full-time job that wasn’t seasonal.

    Does anyone have any success (or semi-success) stories of getting onto a full-time job tract later in life?

    Anyone else feel as though their resume and/or transcript carries a scarlet letter of sorts that that they’re permanently unemployable?

    I’m especially interested in any more recent stories.

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      High five, I feel you! Turned 30 this summer. Spent my 20s as a grad student and a part time and seasonal worker, currently a temp and lowly-paid adjunct. Still working on getting a full time job, but I am getting some interviews so I just hope that one of them will turn into an offer sooner rather than later.

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        Similarly, I had my first “real” FT job just before turning 30, in part because of the years I spent in undergrad, grad, and working abroad. This situation is not uncommon in academia, where a lot of us have outside experience and have taken time for more education. It’s nonetheless frustrating.

        Anxa, you didn’t indicate your field, but I think that it’s fair enough to say that it’s possible to find the right fit in an organization with people who understand your work history and background as it is.

    2. Eva*

      Turned 30 last November and started my first full-time job one week later. Spent my 20’s as a student and working in part-time “fun” jobs that turned out not to be as fun as they should have been, until I got my act together and finished my business degree and got a job at a large multinational company in their graduate programme (I’m probably the oldest grad they’ve ever had but I don’t care because I love it and there is so much potential for growth and development)

    3. katamia*

      I’m turning 30 this year, and I definitely feel that way, too, although I think people assume I’m younger. I took my college graduation date off my resume years ago because I graduated in 2007 but didn’t have the first job I’ll still generally admit to until August of 2011 (still part time, but something that wasn’t horrid and didn’t end in a metaphorical explosion), so I think people have been assuming I graduated in May of 2011. And while I’d never lie if they straight-out asked for my birthdate or graduation year, I’m happy to let them assume I’m younger (and therefore more marketable) than I am for now.

      For me, the biggest problem has been that my skills and work style don’t match up very well. I’m very good at clerical-type stuff and very detail-oriented by nature, but the jobs where I’ve been happiest have been more physical, and I’ve been absolutely miserable every time I’ve been stuck in a 9-5-type job even though that’s where my skills are. So now I’m trying to focus on careers where either I’ll be up and about more often or where I can freelance and control my schedule a little bit more–if I have to do something clerical, I’d rather work 7 days a week for a shorter amount of time each day ancd take more breaks than work 5 days a week and have two days of nothing.

      1. Anxa*

        I do this, too.

        I think I look younger than I am to most people, and I went back to school to brush up on some classes. I definitely think my internship supervisor thought I was like 23 or 24, and I was a little worried that if he knew how late in the game it was for me–or if anyone did–that whlie my skills may be catching up, that they’d guide me differently.

  136. Bea W*

    UGH! There is someone recently moved down the hall in my office who CONSTANTLY SNAPS their fingers (or maybe it’s gum but it’s too much in rapid succession to probably be gum). It is super loud, louder than when people down that end of the building have conversations. It makes me feel absolutely stabby!

    1. Rabbit*

      One co-worker I had the unpleasant experience of sitting next to would constantly talk or laugh to herself/mumble under her breath/tap her pen constantly/etc etc. I would look around confused and ask, “What is that sound?” or “Did you say something to me?” (Pretending to be confused, not angry or pissed off.) I don’t think she realized how loud she was being and would usually stop (temporarily).

      Maybe it’s passive-aggressive of me, but I would probably stick my head in/around where that sound is coming from and ask, “I keep hearing this snapping sound–does anyone else hear it or is it just me?”

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh, my cube neighbor knocks! Both when he’s thinking, and also sometimes in conversation to emphasize. every. word.

      I sympathize!

      1. Elle*

        I have a coworker who does this during meetings…just knocks on the table while he’s talking. It’s fascinatingly bizarre. I hardly hear a word he’s saying because it’s so distracting.

    3. Nanc*

      I see your snapper and raise you a ball point pen clicker!

      I have no helpful advice . . .

      1. Bea W*

        I had to permanently ban myself from clicky pens. I can’t be trusted around them. They just ask for clicking!

  137. Morgan C*

    Hello,

    I have an odd question. My wife was hired as a nanny/assistant at a daycare for a three day trial period. She filled out no paperwork, and at the end of the 3rd day she was asked if she’d like to be 1099 or W2. I advised her to go the W2 route because 1.) i don’t think she’s a contractor.
    Anyway, today when time came to sign documents, they gave her 10 minutes and said that she couldn’t use the translator on her phone (English is not her native language), and the pay scales were different on the paperwork than what she had agreed to. They said she couldn’t take any paperwork with her. Then they started screaming at her, and she said that she can’t work there anymore. They paid her for 3 days (via check) and she left. A call back to them said that they’d be paying her as a 1099 employee anyway because for less than 800 dollars they don’t need to pay any employment taxes, and that’s always the way it is for “trial” periods. I’m skeptical. Two questions.

    1. Can she file for unemployment?
    2. Is this 1099 stuff legit?
    We are in Illinois if that helps.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m in Illinois too. I do not believe she would qualify for unemployment unless she was already on it before.

      This all sounds shady as hell, but I don’t really know about the 1099 stuff. She’s better off rid of them for sure.

      1. Morgan C*

        Thanks. Its a place that employs mostly immigrants so it seems they feel they can push everyone around to their heart’s content and no one will push back.

    2. BAS*

      Did she fill out an I9 and a W4 or a W9? Either way, she can probably file for unemployment b/c the position sounds like it would be, per federal wage and hour rules, filled by an employee not a contractor as it is in the scope of the company’s normal business. So no, that 1099 thing is not legit. This place sounds shady, so don’t be surprised if they fight a claim.

    3. Megs*

      I think most states you have to have worked a certain period of time before accumulating unemployment, but I’m not sure. The broader situation does sound shady, though – maybe look around for a legal clinic, government office or nonprofit that might have info on their website or be able to answer some questions. Maybe someone would be interested in checking these guys out.

    4. BRR*

      Check Illinois’ unemployment website. She probably will not be able to collect as you usually have to work a certain amount of time.

      She is likely not a contractor as I’m going to assume they would want her there at certain times. I’m also going to guess (not a lawyer, just an opinion) that it’s illegal to have her be a contractor for the trail period. I would probably just let it go but you could file a complaint about misclassifying employees if you feel like it.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Unemployment goes by state law and you usually need to have worked X number of weeks in the last X time period to be eligible for it, X being in state law. It usually doesn’t have to be the same job that you worked X weeks at but you need to look into your individual state.

      1099, yeah, no. They’ll probably get away with that until somebody or somebodies presses the point, or some kind of audit. 3 days of pay isn’t going to catch attention but it sounds like they’ve a pattern going on there.

    6. Marina*

      Here is the phone number she should call: (217) 782-1710 It is for the Illinois Department of Labor Employee Classification information. Hopefully they can help her figure out if she can make a complaint.

  138. overeducated and underemployed*

    When you’ve just been turned down for the two jobs you have been most excited about in the past year, and you have interviews coming up for one you’re much less excited about, but feel like you might be at the point where you need to settle for anything with more stability and room to grow than your current job, rather than holding out for the sort of job you’ve been hoping and working toward for years…well, how do you get yourself excited for the “settling” job? I’m at the point where I’ve been holding out for almost a year, and I think that by the time it hits a year, the career cost of stagnating where I am now could wind up being higher than the cost of moving more slowly or in a slightly different direction than I’d hoped.

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      The only advice I can give is that you never know what a job is actually like until you’re in it (in most cases).

      Maybe this job will turn out to be better than expected!

  139. A Bystander*

    This is sort of a follow-on question about a situation similar to the post a few weeks ago about being written up for “faking” a panic attack.

    What would you do if you were a a coworker of someone who said they were discriminated against, for an “invisible” disability? Obviously you’d only get one side of the story, since HR / Management could comment on neither performance nor medical issues. What signs would you look for that the employer might be discriminatory? What would you do if you saw those signs? What would you if you didn’t? How do you balance your responsibility to stand up for what’s right, with your responsibility to earn an income for your family?

    1. fposte*

      It depends. I wouldn’t necessarily take this on as a mission I was committing to, but my antennae would probably be raised in key situations. Which situations are key would probably depend on what the person said had happened, and also on which situations I had control over. I would be especially vigilant if I were involved in hiring, because that’s a really big threshold and an easy space for discrimination to occur. And, of course, that would be an even better reason for “Guys, seriously not cool” if anybody made any jokes or demeaning comments.

    2. Megs*

      What’s your goal here? Supporting your coworker? You can do that by taking them at their word that something is wrong and asking if there’s anything you can do for them. If you’re uncomfortable with what they ask, say no. It not, say yes. Pushing back on your employer for discriminatory practices? This would depend on the specific actions going on. Other than supporting your coworker, it’s not really your job to resign in protest over something like this, or try and intervene on your coworker’s behalf. fposte mentioned pushing back on jokes or comments, which is generally a good ally act. Other than that, again, I’m not sure what you’re thinking about doing.

      I’m also a little put off by the tone of your question but am trying not to read into it too much. You use quotes around “invisible” and your questions seem targeted at verifying the coworker’s claim. Why?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I remember trying to answer this question a few open forums ago.

        OP, I think we need a little bit more info to go on before we can offer advice that is meaningful to you.

      2. A Bystander*

        The former employee in question was a friend of mine before we both joined the company, and is still a friend after he left. He wants me to leave the company because of the discrimination. I know he didn’t get along with his manager, but I never saw their interactions directly, just what my friend told me from his own perspective of events. I definitely never saw anything clear cut like derogatory jokes. I don’t have many details, and I can’t ask for any more, because soon after my friend left, my boss’s boss told me not to talk to him about the company at all, just in case of a lawsuit. I guess I am afraid that I’m missing something so I’m trying to figure out what signs I might be overlooking due to confirmation bias. I’m just not sure what to look for.

        1. Marina*

          Why does he want you to leave the company? Would that benefit him in any way? Does he believe it would benefit you in any way? Are you only staying because you’re not sure his story is true?

          It is not your job to figure out whether your friend’s complaints are valid or not. If you want, you can encourage him to find a lawyer or contact the state department of labor to investigate his complaint. But you staying doesn’t make his story any less valid, and you leaving wouldn’t give him his job back.

          1. A Bystander*

            I think he wants me to leave primarily to get revenge on the company. Secondarily to stand up for what’s right, show that I believe him, and am offended by the treatment he got. But yeah, it won’t get him his job back.

            1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

              It is not your job to “get revenge”, first and foremost.

              Secondly, do you *want* to leave? If so, go ahead and start job hunting to eventually leave once you are gainfully employed elsewhere. If you don’t want to leave, it is time to have a reality-check talk with your friend. Explain that you truly feel for them, but that you have bills and responsibilities, and while you do support them, that support can’t extend to quitting your job.

              And be prepared to lose a friend. I can’t imagine asking a friend to leave a company because I am upset with them. That’s just…not appropriate. I understand your friend is upset, but right now, they should be channeling their anger into a solution or a new job, not trying to get a friend to quit their job!

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Your leaving the company is nothing but a moment. Life goes on and the company will go on. So punishing the company is an illusion, it’s not real.

              You have a rock and a hard place going on here, because no one wants to support discriminatory practices and everyone wants to support their friends’ concerns. Ugh!

              I think the best you can do is tell your friend that if you see something you will most certainly speak up. And you can google and get up to speed on what work place discrimination looks like. There have been some excellent discussions here. I would start by trying to figure out if he is in a protected class. Then I would move on to reading relevant laws and news articles.

              I also think that encouraging your friend to find a good lawyer would be helpful. Remind him that an army of friends could quit and that would not do anything, they would just hire someone else. What he needs to actually do is seek legal advice.

              I don’t know where I would land on this one, because I have never had a friend challenge me in this manner. It could be that in the end, you decide you cannot deal with ultimatums no matter what the issues are. Or it could go the opposite way, where your friend’s lawyer builds a good case and you want to help.
              Anyway, remember that if you quit the job you have done nothing to really solve your friend’s problem. They will just hire someone else and continue on as if nothing happened.

      3. A Bystander*

        I don’t mean anything negative, I just put invisible in quotes because I wasn’t sure if it was an appropriate term. As opposed to some more visible protected class like race or gender or being in a wheelchair. A lot of the company is white males but it’s a tech company so I don’t know that is indicative of anything.

  140. Jonikat*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m excited to have an interview for a full-time position of my current part-time job. Our agency still follows a very formal interview process, even for internal interviews of this type (we’re treated the same as external applicants). I applied for this position before but froze at having any questions to ask.

    I know the full-time role’s additional responsibilities already, so asking about increased responsibility will not be genuine, and they’d be aware of that. If I still asked it, I would worry they’d think, “Shouldn’t she know that by now?” but I can clarify that with a former manager if it’d seem strange or not at the very least. I also hope to ask about additional training. Would AAM readers may have some ideas for other good information to ask if they have been in a similar situation.

    Thanks for any input anyone might have; my googling is only coming up with internal department transfer question ideas which aren’t really applicable.

    1. Marina*

      Personally I think internal interviews are a great chance to ask about ways the position fits into the organization’s future growth or any projects you know are coming up. It’s hard to say without knowing specifics.

  141. Marvel*

    So I had a nice phone screen with this company on Wednesday, and we scheduled a follow-up phone interview involving a few more people for 4pm yesterday. At 4:15, they still hadn’t called, so I emailed my contact there to ask if something had come up, using this wording (to be clear, I’m in a profession where a fairly casual tone is very normal and expected): “I hope I didn’t miss your call! I’m not seeing anything on my phone–let me know if something’s up and we need to reschedule.”

    She emailed me back saying she had called me and gotten my voicemail. I replied within 1 minute: “Oh gosh, I’m sorry, that’s really strange–I’ve been sitting by the phone and I definitely don’t see any missed calls. Should I call you back or should we schedule for another time? Just to confirm, my number is (###) ###-####.”

    It’s now 3:30 on Friday afternoon and I still haven’t heard from her, so I sent another email: “I’m not sure what happened with the mixup yesterday, but is there another time we could reschedule for?”

    I’m confused and I guess a little upset about why I haven’t heard from them. My phone has never had an issue receiving calls before, ever, and I was sitting in a place with perfectly good reception where I have taken countless interview calls before, so I can’t fathom what might have happened. Can anyone weigh in on this? Is this kind of radio silence normal, or does it sound like they’re blaming me for the mistake and I won’t be contacted again?

    1. fposte*

      Blergh. How frustrating. I don’t think they’re blaming you for the mistake, unless they’re really inexperienced, but you can still fall out of the queue when something like this happens.

      I don’t think there’s much you can do right now–I think the immediate followup and then the followup today are a reasonable amount and phrased well, but the ball’s in their court. Fingers crossed that they pick it up.

  142. ACA*

    Guys, what is a reasonable proofreading rate for 96 pages of magazine layout? I just got offered a freelance job by someone who “doesn’t have a budget,” and I don’t want to undersell myself or charge too much. (All my previous freelance proofreading gigs have paid a flat fee, so I don’t have an hourly/per page rate.)

    1. ThatGirl*

      Can you estimate an hourly rate for yourself based on previous gigs? Did you feel they were paid fairly? Don’t undersell yourself, the person in question can always try to negotiate down if they truly think it’s too high.

      1. ACA*

        They were paid fairly, but they were books, and paid differently depending on the length/difficulty – this would be my first magazine job.

    2. stressfulfriends*

      You have all the data on hand, you can do totally do this: try to remember the previous gigs. Which ones payed reasonably? How many hours did it take you to complete those? Former pay/hours = your rate. Or do it by amount of pages.

  143. A.L. Dent*

    Following up from my quandry last week, in which I’m applying for both a new job and a promotion in my current job. I had a second interview yesterday with the new job and the director told me that he was going to push really hard to get me hired, and that he definitely wanted me on board, but it might be another two weeks before a decision was made. Today I was offered an interview for my former manager’s job at my current workplace.

    I really am ready to move on, and don’t particularly want the manager’s job. I also don’t want to get the position and immediately resign. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time here. How can I go about this in the most considerate manner possible, without alerting my current supervisor (who will be interviewing me) I’m looking elsewhere?

    1. Jade*

      If there’s one thing I keep learning the hard way, it’s that nothing is ever for certain. If I were you I would interview at your current job too. That way if the external job doesn’t offer you anything, you still have a promotion. If your current job does offer you a promotion before you’ve heard back from the other one, maybe you could ask for as much time as they’re willing to give you to consider it. If they offer you the external job after you’ve accepted the promotion, then I guess you have to decide if the better job is worth possibly burning bridges wiht your current employer.

  144. Alistair*

    Hey folks,

    The update on Monday about the church-event harasser got me upset and anxious about the future. I’m a father to a 3 1/2 year old daughter, and while I don’t have to worry about this stuff just yet, I know in the future I’ll have to teach her how to identify jackasses like James, and then SAFELY fend off their advances. However, I myself need to better learn the signs of a harasser and how to deal with them now, before she gets too much older. And the entire situation has given me a desire to identify harassment situations in general and help end them if necessary.

    So, during a harassment situation in a workplace context*, assuming that the Bystander, the Harasser, and the Target** are all peers***, how can the Bystander identify harassment, and what can the Bystander do to help the Target, hopefully ending the immediate harassment situation? Can the Bystander also extend that help to curb or end the overall harassment entirely? If so, how? As I am Male, I’d like to hear any thoughts on a Male Bystander especially.

    My (few and poor) thoughts so far: If I am the Bystander, I think I would prefer to avoid being the Knight in Shining Armor, as I know that can be an opening gambit for a Harasser. Furthermore, it seems to me that having the Target shut down the Harasser is more likely to lead to the preferred outcome (the Harasser quits harassing the Target, and hopefully never does so again). But without the direct action of “fighting off” the Harasser for the Target (i.e., Knighting), I’m rather at a loss as to how I can intervene. Or if I even should intervene in the moment? Is saying something after the fact to either the Target or Harasser acceptable, and if so, what should I say, especially to the Target? Just being the … Safe Guy? … at the meeting/convention/whatever seems like it’s too passive. I want the Harasser to know that I can see him for what he is, and I want the Target to know someone is on her side (stereotypical gender roles, I know, but also most likely to occur).

    So AAM, what can I do? What can I say? How can I go about making my little corner of this world a better place for my daughter, and in the process, learn skills I can pass on to her in the future?

    Thank you,
    Alistair

    *I plan to ask this same question in the general open thread this weekend, but placed into a social setting.

    **I think I prefer Target rather than Victim. Victim opens the door to shaming of the person, implying that they did something to welcome the harassment. That’s bullshit. Instead, Target implies the Harasser is doing something bad on purpose by choosing the Target, thus putting the blame squarely on the Harasser’s shoulders.

    ***Hierarchy generates additional complications that vary greatly by each person’s level within said hierarchy. This is a worthy discussion that I would like to be saved for a future post.

    1. knitcrazybooknut*

      You didn’t ask for this, so please feel free to ignore, but the best thing you could do for your daughter is allow her bodily autonomy throughout her life. Let her give hugs instead of being forced to hug someone she isn’t comfortable with. Allow her to pick her own appearance (within reason). Teach her that she alone is totally in charge of her own body, and she will not brook interference from creepers, regardless.

    2. stressfulfriends*

      You are overthinking this. How does ‘victim’ imply anything of the sort?

      Also, bystanders as peers simply can respond ‘woah, this remark is unappropriate, James’ in the very situation. When a harrasser tries to mask remarks as jokes (because apparently you are untouchable if you meant it in a humorous way), you simply don’t laugh and ask ‘Oh, I didn’t get the joke, can you explain, please?’.

    3. fposte*

      Seconding stressful that you are overthinking this. Treat people well, let her see you doing it, reward her for questioning as well as compliant, and trust her to figure most of this out herself.

    4. Van Wilder*

      I think your instincts are right not to try to be the hero. I think all you can do is let the target know that you witnessed the harassing behavior, that you don’t think it’s normal or ok, and that you’d be willing to back her up if she were to complain or with anything else she may need. She may be conflict avoidant and wish to do nothing. Or she may need more time to digest what happened. But sometimes victims want to report stuff like this but are made to feel that they’re being over sensitive.

    5. Analyst*

      Work on expanding your “sight” to this sort of thing, in all contexts. I also have a 3.5 girl and have been working to strengthen my feminist and intersectionality spidey senses. I point it out to my husband every time I see A Thing That’s Ridiculous, like aggressively gendered toy marketing.

      Watch interactions between your wife or any other grown women in your life, in all settings, with both known and random men. Are the women interrupted more frequently? Are their ideas heard or dismissed? Can you gently level the playing field by guiding the floor back to the woman? Bonus points if you do this in front of your daughter.

      If you see a dude acting like James, call him out on it! It’s easier for the bystander to speak up than the target. And jackasses like James don’t see women as equals to himself or he wouldn’t prey so hard with no regard to their reactions. But these jackasses are more likely to take notice when a man points out their nasty ways.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        +1. “Hey, is everything all right here?” or “You OK?” directed at the person who is the target is a great low-key way to check in on public situations where you suspect harassment. You are offering assistance to that person while affirming that they are in control of the situation, and you are there for support if necessary.

    6. LQ*

      Sort of related: Don’t think about protecting, or wanting to protect, her as Your Daughter. Think that she (and all people) deserve autonomy and respect because they are their own people. This might sound odd but if you shield and protect her, or do things like “don’t say that to her, she’s my daughter” it diminishes the reason to not do it, or for her to stand up, or for other people to not do it to others. Which should be. “Hey look a person. I should treat them like a person.” (Not “She’s someone’s daughter/mother/wife/sister/relation.”)

      1. Anonsie*

        Absolutely. Adding on to that, the end goal here is not to protect her with the idea that she’ll never get harassed (which is a nigh impossible sort of standard to set and will only serve to shelter her) but to empower her throughout her life to stand up for herself and be comfortable pushing back on people. Don’t penalize her for “talking back” or arguing with you/demanding explanations and discussion when you set rules or punish her. Don’t penalize her for asking for things or trying to negotiate with you. Your goal is not to shield her, it’s to always show her that she can insist on being treated with respect to anyone. Because the fact is she is moving in a world where you can’t prevent her from being on the receiving end of people’s bad behavior, and she has to be able to protect herself.

        This is advice I’d give to everyone about all their kids, though, not just girls. These are important skills to build and there is evidence that kids who are allowed/encouraged to argue with their parents are less likely to do dumb, risky things when prompted by other kids because they have the ability to feel comfortable and confident saying no.

    7. Alistair*

      Thanks everybody. I probably am overthinking this, and ya’ll provided some nice doses of common sense. A natural worrier gets even worse when worrying about things he can’t directly control, you know? I appreciate the feedback and other points of view.

      knitcrazybooknut: I appreciate what you said, and I’ll try to incorporate those ideas more strongly in the future.

      stressfulfriends, Snork Maiden: Those are good phrases that I need to keep in mind.

      Analyst: I’ll definitely work on my feminist spidey sense. I’ve already started seeing plenty of Things like you describe, but I know I can expand on that more.

      LQ, Anonsie: Great ideas for better parenting, I appreciate it.

      Van Wilder: Good to know I’m not off base in my general thinking. Thanks for the ideas.

      fposte: Succinct and well spoken as always. Thank you.

      –Alistair

  145. Van Wilder*

    Headline: My supervisor told HR I’m taking too many sick days but I’m not.

    Last week, HR called me down and told me I was taking a lot of sick time and wanted to offer their services and employee assistance programs and blah blah blah. I asked for the data but she didn’t have it. She kept emphasizing that I wasn’t in trouble but it was her job as HR to make sure everything’s ok with me. I asked if my performance was suffering from this supposed sick time. She said not in terms of deliverables being late but in terms of setting an example for staff who might think “why can’t I work from home or take sick days?” I am a manager. We have flexibility in time/location of work hours and that is the only thing that makes this job bearable because we work 80-100 hours / week during busy season.

    When I got back to my desk, I queried my sick time. A total of 6 days in the last 12 months. I’m sure that’s more than some people but far from a lot of sick time. What happened was that I had sent emails saying that I wasn’t feeling well 3 out of 4 mondays in the last month. The first time: I had a cold and I was more comfortable working from home (still a full working day). Two weeks later: I explained that I had gone to the ER over the weekend for an allergic reaction and it was critical that I follow up with my doctor that day (all 100% true) but my doctor ended up not being able to see me and I worked from home a full day. Last week: I was just very sick and needed to sleep half the day and worked from home the other half of the day.

    Unfortunate that these incidents happened all in a row but life happens. I’m a strong performer, I’m a manager, and I think I’ve earned some flexibility. I ended up talking to the partner in my group (my project supervisor didn’t talk to him or anyone else before going to HR). He agreed that I get my work done, I keep everyone updated as to my availability, and my time is not an issue. I’m annoyed that HR was given incorrect information but he said it’s not an issue right now and don’t make a big deal out of it.

    I’ve just let the whole thing blow over but I don’t know what to do with my supervisor now. We usually get along really well and are work-friends. She doesn’t necessarily know that I know it was her that went to HR, but I told my counselor and the partner and they agreed that it was her. So, how do I work with her? How do I deal with being friendly with her? We also share an office. Do I no longer trust her? If she had actually been concerned about my health, she would have talked to me first. It’s her personal opinion that managers should always be in the office for their employees but most people here do not share that POV and many managers work from home up to 40% of the time (however I am in the office about 80-90% of the time).

    Oh also, I’m pregnant. I was looking forward to telling everyone but now I feel like (a) I don’t want to and (b) I am being forced to. I don’t want to tell her and have her be like “Oh! No wonder you’ve been taking so much time off!” Because I don’t think I’ve been taking any more time than anyone else and I really have been having food allergy issues. Frustrated.

    1. Megs*

      Maybe give it some time? I guess I could understand how she might be concerned if you took three Mondays off in a row but felt too uncomfortable talking to you about your health directly. Assuming this is the first time it came up, it seems unpleasant but not worth hurting a relationship over. What is your concern about trust – that she didn’t talk to you about it first? You’ve framed this as her giving HR incorrect information (you’re abusing sick days) but maybe she was just concerned about the sudden change in behavior (going from very few days out to three in three weeks) and thought HR might be in a better place to help.

    2. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like she may just have noticed your email trends 3 weeks in a row and been concerned. Unless you have some other reason to jump to not trusting her at all, that seems overboard. Personally, I would not want to discuss health issues with my supervisor and would be much happier with getting resources offered without him at all involved in the discussion unless/until I decided to take advantage of something he needed to know about.

    3. Ama*

      I do think it’s probably those three Mondays in a row that are messing with your manager’s perception. I once had to intervene when a boss thought a coworker was taking too many days off — he said it directly to me because I kept track of her scheduled off days (she was a contractor and I handled her timesheets), and I was able to point out that she’d only taken four days in the past six months — 2 for illness, and 2 scheduled PTO. It just so happened that those days were within about two weeks of each other and happened to be the only four days boss was in the office that month, so he decided she was “always” gone.

      Did you point out to the HR rep that called you down what the actual numbers were? If it really is your boss who complained and she’s making HR her go between that seems like the place to start when clearing this up.

    4. BenAdminGeek*

      It’s the Mondays. I had an otherwise wonderful boss who could not get past the fact that I was sick 4 times on a Monday in the first year he managed me. It just became part of his narrative that “BenAdminGeek takes a lot of Mondays as sick days, but he’s a great employee other than that.”

      Here’s a great comic strip on it: http://dilbert.com/strip/1996-04-17

      1. Van Wilder*

        That’s great. My cousin once had a thing where his workplace called a meeting to discuss this issue. Apparently 38% of sick days were taken on Mondays and Fridays. …

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am not clear on where HR was given the incorrect information.

      However, I think Alison would say if your manager asked HR to talk to you to see if everything was alright, then that is her prerogative. Instead of stewing, why not just ask your boss to ask you to your face if you are alright, instead of sending an intermediary? She may have been concerned for your privacy and that is why she asked HR to talk to you.

      At any job I have had if I missed three Mondays in a row, I would expect someone to come running to talk to me about that. I don’t think that is all bad. It depends on how they come at me with the subject, it depends on where the conversation lands and so on.

      As far as your boss’ point of view regarding managers not working from home, I think that you are free to disagree with her, but since she’s the boss she gets to call the shots.

      I am a little concerned about how you gather other people’s opinions. It’s fine to ask others what they think, but I believe that at some point people have to speak directly to each other. I think the convos with your counselor and partner are making you more angry not less angry and I am not sure why.

      Look at it this way, you described the boss as an at work friend. Your question is legit- why couldn’t your at work friend/boss ask you to your face if you were okay? I think you should go ahead and ask her. Soon. Before you have more side conversations with other people and you get yourself more upset.

      Oh and FWIW- the point about other people take just as much time as you do- that one does not fly. Count on the boss/HR to have some trump card on that one. I think in your case they might say, “Other people don’t take three days in month” or “Other people don’t take every Monday for three weeks in a row, they mix up the days”, etc. In the end, they will just say, “We aren’t here to talk about other people.” So I would let go of that point, because it probably will not gain you any ground. I think you can gain ground by asking your boss to speak to you directly instead of using HR or other people.

      1. Van Wilder*

        I might be coming across as angry, but I’m actually not. I just feel like I should be on guard with this person where I never thought I had to before. I was upset at the time. I spoke to my counselor (that’s his job) and my partner (my actual boss).

        Another thing is that I referred to her as my supervisor but she’s not actually my boss. I totally agree that since she’s the boss of me on this project (I work on multiple projects at once and none of my other supervisors have a problem with how I manage my hours but regardless…) I should try to adapt to her working style. That’s why I come in the vast majority of the time but sometimes it’s not feasible for personal reasons.

        I really appreciate everyone’s feedback here and it’s highlighting for me what I sort of already knew was the main problem: perception vs. reality. I worked full days on 2 out of the 3 previous Mondays that I said I was “not feeling well” or had a medical emergency. The third day, I took a half a sick day in earnest and worked the rest of the day from home. But I think that since I said I had to work from home because I’m not feeling well, it comes across as worse than if I said I have to work from home because I’m expecting a delivery (or something else).

        As to the comments that suggest she was legitimately concerned, I appreciate your input but I just don’t think that was the case. She doesn’t hesitate to talk to me or ask me about personal matters, even when she should. I actually think she was “telling” on me. Backed up by the fact that she told HR that staff might not think it’s fair that they don’t get to work from home.

        Anyway, I’m trying not to dwell on it but obviously I should be more careful about the way I present myself and the amount of personal information that I share.

        1. Van Wilder*

          And to be clear, the problem I have with her telling on me is that she’s my superior and if she thinks this is causing a performance issue, I wish she would discuss it with me.

          1. Van Wilder*

            …and she’s been super super nice to me since my meeting with HR so I think they must have told her that I have a medical condition but I still resent being called in there in the first place.

  146. Anxa*

    I am scheduled to go to local conference for work on a day I’m not usually scheduled to work (a weekend).

    My employer is paying for the registration fee.

    I’m assuming that it will not be paid. I’m an hourly employee. Is it perfectly okay to not be paid for this?

      1. Anxa*

        The conference is directly related to the job, but I wouldn’t be doing the activities I normally do at work.

        It is voluntary.

        Thank you.

  147. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

    Last week I was a bit grumpy about the gal moving into my office who is a smoker. This week I need help! Is there ANYTHING that can mitigate the smell? I’ve shared the same office with a smoker before and while it didn’t smell great, it didn’t force me out of the room so that my eyes didn’t water and coughing start up.

    She didn’t want to move into this office and she’s been here longer, much longer, than I have, so I feel for her. But dear god! Three times today this happened!

    1. Megs*

      Things I have done as a smoker to try and be considerate to my coworkers (YMMV as to how comfortable you’d be asking her to do these things):
      – Hang my coat in a closet rather than an enclosed office space (like most people I rarely wash my coat in the winter and it definitely can accumulate smoke smell)
      – Wash my hands every time after smoking before coming back to the office
      – Avoid hair spray (for whatever reason I’ve noticed that it seems to trap the smell in my hair – I do this for me more than anyone else because it drives me bonkers)
      – Have a fan pointed at me and away from my coworker

      I don’t know if any of these would help, but maybe? Good luck!

    2. Van Wilder*

      Sorry I haven’t dealt with this issue but I’m going to suggest maybe chewing gum? Only because I’ve heard it keeps your eyes from tearing when you’re chopping onions.

    3. Helen of What*

      Maybe keep some Febreeze by your desk and spray as needed? You should probably talk to her and tell her you’re sensitive to smoke, maybe she’ll even Febreeze herself.

    5. Sutemi*

      I brought in my own air purifier when I shared an office with a coworker that smoked and residue on clothes/coat. I had an Ionic Breeze model but there are several out there.

  148. Helen of What*

    Among the many things I am kicking myself for these days, I just realized that my official title at work is not the one I was offered when hired. I’ve been here 5 months, and only noticed when an org chart was sent out due to some new hires coming in. Instead of Customer Service Associate, as it said when offered the job (and when interviewed), I’m listed as Customer Service Assistant. Not only does that sound ridiculous but I do the same exact work as full time coworkers titled “Manager” (just part time). There’s even another part time worker who works the days I don’t, same hours and duties, we even share a computer, and she was listed as “Associate”. From what I can tell, I have more experience. WTF.

    This is a survival job, part time, that I am hopefully never going to have to refer to ever again. Is it worth the hassle and embarrassment 5 months in to ask them to correct this? For what it’s worth, I think they generally use inaccurate titles to take advantage of the mostly under 25 years old employees here and pay them less.

    2. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      I would just assume it is an error, and ask for it to be updated.

      Maybe something like, “Hey boss, I don’t know if you noticed as well, but on the org chart that was recently sent out, my title is different from what I was hired as. Is this something that could be updated?”

  149. Fawnling*

    I am in the negotiation stage of a new job and I was wondering how high I should negotiate. If they offer on the low end of the scale do I counter with middle, or just a few thousand dollars more? (Low and middle are about a $12,000 difference) I don’t want to offend the hiring manager. I am also single, no debt, living away from hometown – how do I successfully negotiate more vacaction over more pay? Time with family is more important than a few thousand dollars a year.

    1. Jen*

      What is it in terms of percentage? If you are looking at a 150k offer and counter with 162, it’s very different than 30k countering at 42k

  150. Dee*

    I’m having a hard time finding work in my career field right now. I’m only working a few hours a week, like 3-10. I’ve been thinking adding a second, easy to get job like retail (I have a long background in that) to pay the bills until I’m able to find a decent FT job in my field. I’m concerned that my resume will make me look like a job hopper. Is it okay to take a job like this and just leave it off my resume and put my current job in my field on thee instead? Will potential employers be none the wiser then or will they find out anyway?

    1. AnotherFed*

      There is nothing wrong with leaving a job or two off the resume, especially when you have more relevant experience that you would rather highlight. They might find out if you have to list everything for a background check, but at that point they most likely wouldn’t bat an eyelash – its pretty reasonable to take on extra part time work to try to make ends meet!

  151. MuseumMusings*

    Thanks to everybody who gave me input on the museum education field. I’ve started looking at my past jobs and trying to compile what I liked about them and why and what other jobs and fields use these skills.

    ….and then I got the part-time museum job I applied for on a lark. I am beyond thrilled. Following that was a request from another one of the education organizations I volunteer for for a programming update I suggested in January, and then a new museum asked me if I’d be interested in working in marketing and exhibits for then as a volunteer. And I said yes to all, because apparently sleep is for the dead.

    I’ll keep working at my temp job (my current manager is freaking amazing and accommodating because she wants to keep me), plus the part-time, and the volunteering because I love it. I’m looking at some 50+ hour work weeks (plus volunteering), but to be completely honest, this is the happiest I’ve been about a job in a long time. I’m not going to let this stop my previous research, but I really feel confident about this.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Oh, so tricky. I answer questions sometimes up to a couple of months after receiving them, but I know it’s not fair to ask you to wait that long. I’d love to say wait three weeks, but I know stuff can be more time-sensitive than that. Hmmm — email me if you’re in doubt and I can tell you if I’m likely to publish it or not?

      (And I should note that me not publishing it doesn’t in any way indicate it’s not an interesting or useful question. I just have way more than I can answer!)

  153. Sara*

    Looking for tips/language to use with my colleague (we report to the director, so we are senior in our roles managing quite a few teams). I’m a month into a new job, and my colleague and I are in the same role but managing different projects. She’s is suppose to be training me, but it’s not happening, as she is far too busy. I’m happy to keep on and figuring things out, but there are at times I reach a point where I need her advice/insight/decision as parts of my project are in transition. I don’t need training on how to do the job, but rather, processes/client knowledge/feedback from previous projects to consider. When I’ve asked for this info, I try to be as resourceful as possible and dig for as much as I can on my own, and I always try to present my way forward. When I ask her (sometimes via email but I try to avoid that) she is stressed/busy/rushed/doesn’t reply and will always ask if I’ve done steps 3-10 on top of all the ones I tried. It’s getting tiresome as I have usually exhausted my efforts and need help. (Once I was asking for her approval on my proposed next steps as we were missing key info even after two days of intense follow-ups on my part. After she asked if I had done steps 1-10, she finally asked if I had tried following up with this contact in the last ten minutes. I hadn’t, but I had tried within the last hour. She told me to try once before asking her. I did, and as the last two days, no response and I then had to go back and confirm if my proposed way forward was ideal – there are a lot of sensitive client issues so having her buy in is important.) I realise she is busy, but it’s getting difficult for me to get on with what I need to do. A few mistakes have happened as she wanted to review my work, but didn’t do so thoroughly, and she takes no accountability for her part in errors. She’s also a micro-manager and will “help” me when it comes to really nit picky preferences (like my outgoing out of office message) but not on bigger picture items (budget approvals, work in progress). She assigns tasks to me without me knowing, but then chases it up saying it’s now overdue. And she talks over me when I’m giving direction to others, so she can give the direction.

    I’m at my wit’s end, and considering leave the job one month in. (This is a stressful role to begin with, so I’m not saying this lightly.) I’d like to meet with her and have a discussion on this, but I’m worried because of my stress levels and feelings, it will all come out terribly. Add to this, our roles will have an overlap on my project as she is the account manager for the client as our client doesn’t want the change, but my director wants to move her off to other clients.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I’m sorry. This is a tough situation.

      The first thing to do is to sit down and talk to her, not in the heat of the moment but in a sit down meeting. Your approach is that you understand how busy and overworked she is, but these are the challenges you are finding. What can you do better to get the help that you need?

      Then you see what happens next.

      If you can’t solve it one on one with her, then you need to go to your director and do the entire thing over again. Your director wants you to be successful. The director is going to assume you are getting all the help you need unless you tell her otherwise.

      But try to work it out with co-worker first.

      1. Sara*

        Thanks Wakeen, I’m hoping an honest conversation will help us come to some understanding. Appreciate your thoughtful reply and will keep in mind how things go after the conversation and looping my director in.

  154. Rocky*

    I have an employee, Roscoe, who has been on my team for a few years. When he was hired, an employee in another department, Lucinda, trained him for a part of his job that’s detail-oriented and requires a lot of critical thinking. Roscoe now thinks of Lucinda as his mentor for this part of his job.

    So…what Roscoe doesn’t know is that after his training, some of Lucinda’s ongoing performance issues got worse, and she was placed on a PIP. I wasn’t her supervisor, but I was privy to a lot of details just by being on the management team, and worked with her enough to encounter all the performance issues and raise them with her manager. She eventually found a new job and left, but she was on the road to being fired. Bridges were burned. She’s now in a similar position at another company in the area.

    Roscoe and Lucinda have a good professional relationship to this day. He sometimes talks about problems in “What Would Lucinda Do?” terms. It comes up sometimes when I’ve asked him to reconsider his approach to something, e.g. “Lucinda taught me to do it this way.” So far I’ve restrained myself from blurting out, “Roscoe, Lucinda quit before she could be fired for not doing her job, and you should take all her advice with a shaker of salt.” I have just said things like, “I know Lucinda had ways she preferred to do that, but I’d like you to try doing it this way instead,” or, “You’ve had a lot of experience doing this now and should use your own judgment.” Once he asked me in some depth if I Lucinda was going to be at a professional event and if I might be talking with her, and I finally said, “Uh, between you and me, I’m probably not one of Lucinda’s favorite people.” I feel like my attempts to be professional are just making things confusing and weird, and like Lucinda and I just had a personality conflict. Should I even try to explain things diplomatically, or should I just accept the awkwardness?

    1. Koko*

      Ooh, this is a tough one. In some abstract sense I feel like Lucinda’s privacy should be protected, but to the extent that her poor performance caused publicly visible problems, I think it’s reasonable to attribute those problems to her performance. So you don’t need to get into the details, but you could say, “Unfortunately, Lucinda’s shipments had more quality control issues than we can accept, so I need you to use Approach X to avoid having those issues.” or “The amount of time that Lucinda spent approving teapot designs because she felt she needed time to digest them often caused us to miss delivery deadlines, so it’s important that you review all designs on the day you receive them, despite what you saw from Lucinda.”

      One thing I notice is that you’ve softened your language in your examples to almost be suggestions instead of instructions. “I know Lucinda had ways she preferred to do that, but I’d like you to try doing it this way instead,” sounds like it’s just a matter of preference and you’re asking him to change it simply because that’s your own whim or preference. Which could be your prerogative as a manager, but the instruction would probably be better received if you said, “I know Lucinda always used the Schwartzman Method of evaluating chocolate formulas, but the Baker Method is the gold standard that I want you to use because it will get you better results.” Make it clear, without getting into gossipy details or saying anything about her as a person or her character, that the reason you’re asking him to do things differently is because Lucinda’s way was not optimal and/or caused problems.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s not his fault that Lucinda was assigned to train him. Please keep that in mind. At some point you may need to say, “the way Lucinda did things was not up to current company standards. I need you to bring current standards into this work and keep things up to these pars.”
      I vaguely remember a coworker training me wrong. It was jarring to find out so much was wrong. I was nervous because I did not know if there was more stuff she told me to do that wrong. It was like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

      So you have two problems. You have to let him know that Lucinda is not the hero that she appeared to be initially. And you have to watch to make sure that he feels he has accurate information now.
      Keep telling yourself that Lucinda was presented to him as the trustworthy and all-knowing. So a) this is not his fault and b) this information may rock him for a bit and he may have trouble moving forward. Personally, my first question in that situation would be how do I know I finally have correct information? How do I know that I will not lose my job because I keep getting wrong information?

      1. Rocky*

        Thanks. It’s not so much that he was “trained wrong” (a lot of the training he got from Lucinda was just fine, and he mostly gets it right on his own) but that he continues to model his approach after Lucinda. The fact that it’s not his fault, that Lucinda was presented him as trustworthy, and it might freak him out to find out that Lucinda sucked at her job, is exactly why I’m being so careful about this.

  155. Elizabeth*

    Looking for advice…I work in a Marketing position that has some creative design responsibilities. I put in my two week notice exactly one week ago. Today I was asked to give our HR/Financial person a tutorial on how to use Photoshop and InDesign. Short backstory – when I gave my notice they said they figured I would leave (they restructured my position 6 months ago) so they were not surprised and do not intend to hire anyone to fill the void. At this point in time I feel like they’re starting to take advantage of me…I’ve already said “no, not able” to starting two new projects to be completed before I leave. I don’t want to leave on poor terms, but I also don’t want to be chewed up and spit out. Advice on how to proceed? Thank you!

    1. Megs*

      Well, it sounds like they might just be wanting you to train in this other person to do some of the creative parts of your job which seems perfectly normal since they’re not replacing you. Assuming you can do this in the time you have left without working more than you normally would or neglecting something else they want you to do, what is it about the request that makes you feel taken advantage of?

      1. Elizabeth*

        I think what bothers me is that since I’ve given my notice I’ve been asked to do a lot of work before I go, which I understand because they’re not hiring, but I think the workload is a bit much. It’s always been my understanding that giving two weeks notice is to allow for time to tie up loose ends…not start new projects. I could understand training someone on process but to train someone how to use a design software…that is a huge undertaking and would take far more time than a week. Also, I am not leaving the company but going to a different department. It seems as though they figure I’m going to be available for as long as they need…so it’s been a free for all. But perhaps these feelings are more emotion than just business.

        1. Tris Prior*

          Yeah, there is no way you can teach someone PS and INDD in only a week or two. Unless they just need to know how to do absolute basics. Ugh.

    2. Koko*

      I think you should keep the focus on the resources and time you have left vs. what they want you to do with it.

      If you have the time, you should just do whatever they ask. That’s your last two weeks of “other duties as assigned.” Don’t get bogged down in whether it’s right or fair that they’re asking you to do this particular type of work. It’s not taking advantage of you to ask for your help setting them up to be in the best position possible after you’re gone–that’s just part of a good transition plan even if it includes duties totally beyond what you do day to day. I once gave one month’s notice at a job and spent last 2 weeks screenshotting and typing a step-by-step description of everything I did in order to create dozens of “manuals” for every aspect of my job and training my replacement. It wasn’t my normal work but it was exactly what they needed from me to have a smooth transition.

      On the other hand, if you’re rapidly running out of time with a mountain of projects you’re trying to wrap up before you leave and they’re still dropping one new project after another on you, and it’s the volume rather than the type of work that you’re objecting to, then you treat it like any other workload issue: tell your manager, “With the time I have left here, I still have A, B, C, and D left that I’ve been asked to do, but I’m realizing that realistically it’s only going to be possible for me to do two to three of those things. What are the most important things that I should prioritize finishing before my last day?”

  156. Salary Requirements*

    I’m currently happily employed, but I get contacted pretty frequently by recruiters and industry contacts pointing me in the direction of job openings they think I’d be a fit for.

    These postings pretty much never list a salary range and I haven’t had much luck getting the information from the recruiters, who play coy, and the non-recruiter contacts, who usually say they aren’t privy to that information since they aren’t the HM.

    My employer has given me a generous merit increase of roughly 8-10% a year (with a 20% increase tied to a promotion one year), which means it’s not worth it to me to put together an application unless the move would come with at least a 15-20% salary bump, i.e. something appreciably more than what I’m likely to get just staying in my current satisfying role for another year.

    It also means that I’m not really sure whether I’m overpaid. I work in nonprofit digital marketing which means that market salary information is really hard to come by on sites like Glassdoor etc – nonprofit salaries for doing identical work already vary wildly and it’s made worse because digital marketing is such a new field where positions/titles haven’t really been standardized and positions that on the surface seem similar can actually command vastly different salaries.

    So for these jobs that don’t advertise salary range and ask for me to include my salary requirements with my application, I mostly have shied away from applying because I worry that maybe I’m overpaid and the range they have in mind for this position isn’t even as good as what I’m currently making, let alone 15-20% better.

    What’s the best thing to do here? If I did apply and my salary requirements are wildly higher than they intend to pay for the position, do I risk looking so out of touch that it will damage my reputation? Is there some other way to figure out what the range is or should be for the position or positions like it in general that I’ve overlooked? I work in a niche area where everyone knows everyone, so my application wouldn’t be just an anonymous applicant – I’m someone they will see at networking events, coalition meetings, industry functions, etc. Am I overthinking this?

    1. Rocky*

      I think it’s perfectly fine to say, “I’m happy with my job and my employer treats me really well, so the salary would have to be in the range of $X for this to make sense for me. Is that in the ballpark?” You must be a pretty attractive candidate if you’re being recruited regularly, so I don’t think your employer is overpaying you – they’re paying you what it takes to keep you there. If your salary requirements are way more than another firm can possibly pay, that just informs them that they can’t compete with the top salaries for people in your line of work. FWIW, I work for an employer that has a reputation for good salaries, and no one thinks I’m out of touch – just lucky to be well-compensated.

    2. Mike C.*

      You’re not going to damage your reputation by asking for money. No one who needs to cash a paycheck to live is going to suddenly turn their nose down at you for having the gall to want to be paid well for your work. At worst, they will consider someone else. This coy bullshit (and yes, it’s absolute bullshit) isn’t something you need to put up with and frankly they’re wasting your time. That would piss me off if it were me.

      So, since you’re already happy where you are and you’re making good money and they’re coming to you, so you get to drive this. You can say things like, “I can’t seriously consider this position until I hear a firm salary range”, “My salary? That’s confidential, but know that I’m well compensated and I love working here” and “I’d consider pursuing this further for at least , depending on your benefits package”. Don’t skimp out at 20%, you need to factor in things like differences in benefits, commute, healthcare, work environment, etc so pad it a little more. It’s a negotiation and you need to give yourself some breathing room. If they can’t meet your requirements then you have nothing to worry about.

      Again, they’re coming to you, not the other way around. If they want you, they’ll start answering questions. If they get pissed off, tell them you’re no longer interested and that you need to get back to work. Then hang up the phone. If they change their minds, they know your phone number.

      Oh, and get rid of this idea that you’re somehow overpaid. Are you creating value for your employer? Are they happy with your work? So happy that they seem to want to pay you even more each year? Then you’re not over paid. If you were, they would stop paying you even more or even lay you off. So take that thought and stick it in the garbage can where it belongs.

  157. ElectricPearl*

    Longtime reader and lurker. Just wanted to write in and thank this blog and the community for your part in helping me land my new and quite dreamy gig. I had been working at the same BigCorp company for almost 6 years, and it was rough to suddenly be out on the market and searching again, even though I was happy to be out of that toxic environment. I took much of the advice here on cover letters to heart, and penned cover letters that were drastically different from anything I would’ve considered 6 years ago, when I thought cover letters were mostly BS. The result to my most passionate one was a phone call from the CEO of a company I dug very much and am a consumer of, asking to meet in person. Although I was probably not what they’d originally assumed they’d be hiring in terms of background or budget, they let me build out my ‘dream role’ playing to my strengths and I’m very pleased with the result. Thank you, AAM!

  158. Alice*

    Does anyone know how to cope with a new manager that turns everything into a capital T “Thing”?

    My manager used to manage another department, but recently they let my former manager go, and instead of hiring someone to replace her, they just have this woman managing two departments. The new department is full of degreed professionals and her other department is not. Every person on her new staff has more experience. Every conversation with this manager is strained and a simple question turns into a ten minute treatise on what we are doing wrong. In addition, she is a world-class micromanager which I am completely unused to.

    Obviously, I am looking for a new job, but how can I manage to keep this relationship together in the mean time? she has already snapped at me a few times over petty stuff.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I would try a soft approach first, try to be calming and reassuring as often as possible. By this I mean say things like, “Okay, I will do that right now.” or “I will help with that.” Simple statements that indicate you are hearing what she is saying and responding. When you can work it into conversation indicate you see that she has an awful lot on her plate and let her know that your intentions are to give her as much support as you can.

      It will take awhile for her to hear you say this. Weeks? Maybe months? Meanwhile, this technique gives you a non-adversarial approach to handling the problem. You just want to to do a good job, be a good employee, etc. All of which is true, btw.
      When she gives you a strong negative reaction, think of stepping on a dog’s paw or walking backward into a small child. Think of their surprise and sometimes they express it as anger. The first thing we do is say something to the effect of “I meant you no harm”. When she gets short with you, think to yourself, “I need to let her know I meant her no harm.”

  159. Ruffingit*

    Gave my notice at work today because I got a new job making nearly twice what I’m making now and with great benefits. My current workplace has deteriorated to the point where, in the last three months, I will be the sixth person to leave on a team of less than 20 people. This last week, they started requiring doctor’s notes if you take unplanned sick days. My manager told us in the staff meeting on Wednesday that she was aware of some dissatisfaction on the team and that her door was open and we could come talk to her. So I did (as did several others) and I told her the doctor’s note thing was not a good idea for the reasons Alison has cited here. My boss seemed flustered and unable to articulate why she wants them. My feeling is that it’s a way to stop people from job interviewing. Which is ridiculous given that the wage here is basically poverty level and there are no benefits.

    I took this job three months ago to get out of one that was awful. It has served its purpose. I generally stay in jobs for a good length of time, but given the offer I received, there was no reason to stay where I (and my colleagues) am not appreciated. So…I will be working through next Thursday and then I will take a week off before starting the new job. WOO HOO!!!!!!!!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Congrats, you made it outside of that whole big storm. What an endurance contest, holy crap. Wishing you much luck/success at your new place!

    8. Ruffingit*

      Thank you everyone, I really appreciate it. It is amazing how many managers just do not get it. In my discussion with my manager yesterday regarding the doctor’s note thing, she became flustered and defensive though I was perfectly professional about it. It’s as though they don’t think these things through. If you claim to want a cohesive group and you claim to have an open door to discuss concerns and you claim to want workplace harmony, then don’t do something that is going to destroy all of that and cause employees to resent you and then get upset when someone points out that those are the consequences. Anyway, I’m just glad to be moving on, though I will miss my co-workers, they are truly a special group of people and we’ve really bonded even in the short time I’ve been there.

  160. Gene*

    Hiring to replace the guy who died a year ago is actually moving along! The rewritten job description has med it through HR and is now in the hands of the Labor-Management board. Yesterday the union president sent it to me and asked if I agreed with it; I told him since I wrote it, I agree with everything that’s in it. :-)

    Assuming the union doesn’t have problems with it, the next step is the Civil Service board meeting, end of the month. Then advertising, grading supplemental questionnaires (no civil service test for this), first round of interviews/practical testing, sending out grades, appeal period, Civil Service Commission approving list, hiring interviews. We might have someone on board by July.

  161. Rebecca*

    So here I am, 1000 comments in, and zero time during the work day to even pop onto a website and read a few words. My manager’s words ring in my head. “I will never tell management we can’t take on more work”. Meaning us, not her. Now people are starting their vacation times, we have people out sick, and we are drowning. Her answer is to work more and more and more and…nope. Not doing it. I’m tired, and I have a life that does not revolved around work. Just. So. Frustrated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      A manager can say yes to everything or they can manage, they cannot do both.

  162. MB*

    I’m thinking of making a career switch into accounting (obviously going back to school for it), but I’m wondering… am I too OLD to be an accountant? I’m only 27 and everything I read online goes on and on about how public accounting firms only hire fresh young grads… are there other areas of accounting I could enter at, like, the age of 30? I never would have thought that there was an age limit to become an accountant, but it looks like there might be?

    1. De Minimis*

      I think you’d be fine anywhere except possibly the Big 4, but even then you might have a shot, because I’ve known of some thirtysomething people starting out with them and doing okay [that is, getting a few years of experience and moving on.] I had a bad experience with them as an older new hire, but some of that was because the recession hit right as I started working for them–also it just wasn’t the right place for me.

      The main thing is making the most of recruiting opportunities when you’re back in school.

    2. BRR*

      I know someone who did something similar. She went to undergrad to be a teacher. Was a teacher for a year or two. Hated it. Got a masters in accounting. Got a job at a big four firm and is younger than her peers by a couple a years.

    3. Ekaterin*

      My boyfriend is an “old” future accountant – he’ll be 30 by the time he finishes his master’s degree and takes all his CPA exams. He did get the sense that he has probably aged out of the Big 4, in that the reps at his college career fair (which was aimed at grad students, not undergrads) were pushing the idea of unpaid internships and were not optimistic about entry-level paid positions. But there are other opportunities in the field – even without a degree, he’s on his second accounting job which pays well enough given that we’re a two-income household.

      1. MB*

        Oh that makes me feel a bit better, lol! When I think about it again, I’ll probably be like 31/32 when I graduate, so I’m glad to know I’m not COMPLETELY out of the league. Compared to my current salary (in public education), lol an entry level accounting salary would be a step up.

        1. Ekaterin*

          It’s funny that you say that, because I’m the one bringing in 60% of our household income, and I am a public school teacher. :) (I work in what I am fairly certain is the highest-paying district in the country.)

          1. MB*

            Haha, I’m actually not a teacher though. I live in an area where public school teachers are pretty well paid, but I don’t LOVE the school environment.

    4. Jessi*

      I think it’s more a matter of how much time you can commit to work. Some of my friends did grad programs with the Big 4 accounting firms and there are certain times of the year they don’t go home for days on end (and being paid only a grad salary). I think part of the reason they prefer younger applicants is because they’re less likely to have outside commitments like children, and not purely on age itself.

      1. After the Snow*

        Agree with this. My niece quit her big 4 accounting job because she was working everyday of the week. The only time she didn’t go to the office was Sunday mornings when she went to church.

        1. MB*

          Ahhh, that makes sense. I work in education right now which gives me so much time off, for better or for worse, so I’m not really sure that I’d be able to handle a big 4 accounting job.

          Is it imperative to get a job with the big 4 to be an accountant though? Like, is that the only way?

          1. De Minimis*

            No, absolutely not. It’s the most publicized path and in my opinion schools push it way too much, but there are so many other things you can do with an accounting degree. After my false start with the Big 4, I ended up in a fed job for a while and am now working for an education-related non-profit, and I figure I will probably be in a good position to eventually move toward working for a college or university finance department sometime down the road.

  163. Rebecca*

    Sorry for the second comment. Has anyone ever made the transition from Accounts Receivable/Collections (reconciling payables and disputing/collecting chargebacks) to Accounts Payable? I spotted a job opening for an Accounts Payable position, and one of the requirements was previous experience in Accounts Receivable or Accounts Payable.

    1. Mirilla*

      I’ve done both, currently working in A/R now, but ideally I’d like to move into bookkeeping where I do both at the same job. Once you understand the concept, A/P and A/R are really two sides of the same coin. Now that I’m doing A/R, I am amazed at the amount of A/P staff who don’t reconcile their monthly statements. If I didn’t call to remind them they skipped an invoice for payment, I think most of them would never pay it. When I did A/P, I made sure our records matched the vendor statements every month. I’d say the job is worth checking out for sure. It’s good to have experience in both aspects of the process and the fact that they said experience in A/R or A/P leaves it open for you to apply.

  164. EvilQueenRegina*

    Anyone ever had a coworker who sprays themselves with body spray right in the middle of an open plan office several times a day? What did you do about it, did you say anything to that person or just suck it up?

    Mulan’s on a temporary contract with us, started in September and finishes at the end of March when our Defence Against the Dark Arts position is finally cut. It’s only been recently that I’ve noticed it, well, there was a time before Christmas when she was coming in smelling quite strongly of BO. That seemed to have gone away but has recently come back and her way of dealing with it is to keep spraying the body spray.

    There have been several reasons why up to now I’ve been sucking it up and ignoring it. One, I do genuinely like her as a person, we have a lot in common and after three years of Cruella, Maleficent and Ursula at my last place I appreciate her along with our coworkers Ruby, Kathryn, Aurora and Lily. Two, since she is going anyway and for part of the rest of her time one or the other of us is on holiday it’s not something I’ll have to put up with for much longer. Three, she’s had various personal things going on which aren’t for me to share and I kind of would feel really bad about saying something. But the constant headaches and choking from the spraying are getting a bit much. The bathroom is two minutes walk away from her desk, she could spray there.

    Has anyone else ever had that?

    1. Anonsie*

      I think it would be pretty inoffensive to say, hey, when you spray that right here the smell is really intense. Can you do it away from the desks?

      Since you’re not commenting on her odor but the odor of the body spray, I don’t think it’s a delicate conversation at all. I have a very poor sense of smell so people I work with have had to warn me about the scents of things I use on several occasions like, “that air freshener is really awful,” “please warn me next time you’re going to wipe down your desk with those surface wipes because they smell really strongly,” “whatever lotion you just put on your hands is giving me a headache, can you not use that in here?”

    2. Jessi*

      Sorry I don’t have advice for this issue but you’ve just reminded me that OuaT is back this Sunday and I went squee!

    3. Belle diVedremo*

      Yes. Bathrooms hold odors pretty well, so asking her to spray herself there will likely make the bathroom unusable for a while too. Had to ask “the perfume temp” to not spray herself in the building, as it sent me out of there within 15 minutes. Only time anyone’s perfume at work got to me, hope it’s the last.

  165. Sarah*

    I’ve been told now by several people, two of whom do hiring (neither of them hire in the field I’m interested in, and both are pretty young), that I should put my perfect ACT score on my resume. I’m a year and a half out of college, and don’t have my undergrad GPA on my resume because it’s fine but not great. I am kind of weirded out by this- most people above the age of 30 probably don’t even know what a good ACT score is, since its popularity is relatively recent, and I feel like the lack of GPA would make it even weirder.

    I’m trying to get a job in law and am wondering if this would actually help at all. What about my LSAT, which is pretty respectable as well?

    1. AnotherFed*

      ACT score would be really weird! IANAL but LSAT score also sounds strange, assuming you already have your law degree.

      1. Sarah*

        I don’t have my law degree. I’m looking for paralegal/legal assistant positions but don’t have a certificate (in a city where many paralegal positions require it). So I thought the LSAT score- which I just got a few months ago- would indicate my relative legal ability.

        But I do agree that adding either score does sound strange in the end. It’s just that two people I know well and who are in charge of hiring for entry-level positions have mentioned to me that I should put my ACT score on. They hire for a marketing research firm and a tech startup though, so maybe the conventions are different?

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      If you’re out of college, don’t put your college board scores on anything that doesn’t require it. If you have your JD, don’t put your LSAT score down; if you’re not a lawyer but are looking for legal work, maybe it could help. Depends on what you’re planning to do with it.

      Context: I took the SAT and only applied to colleges that asked for SAT scores (and this was in the day when a perfect score was 1600, not 2400), and ACTs never came up then or since, so I don’t know — without looking it up — what a good or perfect ACT score would be. I left my SATs and my National Merit Scholar *Semi-Finalist* (good but not great) off my resume, although I think I mentioned my perfect verbal SAT score when I was applying for a tutoring gig in my sophomore year. Only when it was really relevant, anyway.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      This would be weird, even if people knew it was a great score. My feeling is that promoting high school metrics looks like you haven’t done anything similarly noteworthy since you were 17. (Not that it is true, but it might look that way.)

      Although, fwiw, I am in my late 30s and thought it might be funny to hang my old high school Outstanding Senior Math Student plaque at work as a joke. I didn’t, though.

      The LSAT might be different, since it’s more recent and field-related.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Last is not as field related as one might think. It’s supposed,to predict Inez’s ability to do well in law school, not as a paralegal. I’d leave off both act and last scores unless specifically asked for them. Some financial services firms ask graduating seniors for sat scores because they view them as a proxy for intellectual ability. They also have, you know, the actual grades to look at, which are a much better indicator of a student’s ability, my opinion.

  166. Ariel*

    In an essay to be read by a potential employer on the subject of “interpersonal skills,” would it be imprudent to use an anecdote from a romantic relationship? From a friendship? Or should the examples given to illustrate the interpersonal skill be strictly workplace oriented?

    2. AnotherFed*

      Professional experience would be much stronger, if you have it. If not, then talk about volunteering experience, and failing that, group academic work examples.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I would not use romantic relationships as an example of interpersonal skills. Your interviewer will be at best distracted and at worst will question your judgment in sharing from your romantic life.

  167. straordinaria*

    RE: Twitter: What would you consider appropriate topics to tweet about on a personal twitter account?

    For reference, I’m doing a graduate degree in a politics-related field at the moment, but my top choice of work is in the drinks industry. I’m slightly worried that I’m coming across too strong – politics because it can be so divisive; drinks in case I come off as an alcoholic (although I don’t think that’s the case – it tends to be more retweets from industry figures and news rather than HERE’S ME WITH A HANGOVER LOLZ). My other big interest is feminism and social justice issues, which can also come across as quite divisive. Yet I don’t want to stop tweeting about any of them because they’re all fields I’m interested in working in. (I have another private account for more personal tweets, but they’re overlapping a lot at the moment.) Thoughts?

    1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

      Set a weekly limit, and stick to it. Make sure you’re mixing it up with other topics that aren’t divisive. The accounts I prefer to follow are those that have a mix of information on a variety of topics. I don’t want every single thing to be about REALLY INFLAMMATORY TOPIC X.

      I don’t think there is an issue, as long as you don’t make it your only topic.

  168. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

    I was off work today. I don’t normally log in and check work email when I’m off, but for some reason I just did. And I found out that my supervisor has left the company effective immediately. She wasn’t awesome boss of the year but she was a lot better than the other manager on the team, who I’m now worried is going to make things even more unbearable. She’s also the second supervisor in less than a year to leave.

  169. Miles (is not my given name)*

    I just don’t understand how the system of applying via the normal channels leads to a job any more. I feel like HR takes one look at the first line of my resume and moves on to the next candidate. At one job I’ve held I was presented with a “smoking gun” statement about why my 4 promotion & 5 raise requests (submitted by my manager) were denied because the person who approves them “thought you were middle eastern” just based on my name… and each was approved within a month after that was cleared up.

    Surely not all HR managers are like that… but I graduated in a high-demand field, and all of my friends either had jobs lined up when we graduated or found work within a month, and here I am, unemployed for almost a year now. I’ve had 3 interviews, of which one was an automated recording where my internet cut out in the middle, and the other two were round 1 interviews for identical positions with the same person — who hinted that the final decision on whom to invite back was made by someone I’d never met.

    I don’t even know what to do any more I’m losing hope.

    1. BRR*

      I’m sorry you’re in this situation. I know it sucks. I’m in my late 20s and out of the three full-time jobs I’ve had, two were just from applying. This included applying to a lot of jobs with no connections and interviewing for a few. I’ve basically only used normal channels.

      1. Miles (is not my given name)*

        I just don’t know any more. In the only job I’ve had where the hiring manager saw my name before my face, he later told me I was the only person that even applied. Anywhere else, it was either through a connection, meeting the director and asking (a food service place that was that severely understaffed), or one time I walked in and asked for the status of my application, they gave me an interview on the spot and later told me I was hired but they couldn’t find my paperwork and I’d have to redo it.

        If I could just find some evidence that I’m being given the same consideration as anyone else, so I can hold on to it & remind myself… but the whole hiring process is so secretive

        1. Let it Snow!*

          If you’re concerned your name may be stopping you from getting hired, have you tried applying with a nickname? Don’t disclose the full name until you get your new hire paperwork.

  170. SuperAnon*

    One of the things that attracted me to my current job was how welcoming and supportive my boss was throughout the interview process, which has carried over in my first six months as well. Other people hired for similar positions to mine have said the same thing. I have heard rumors that he is not so kind to people who are entry level or below but they sounded exaggerated to me based on my interactions with him.

    Well, someone I trust witnessed first hand the reaction of someone entry level who was nearly driven to TEARS after an interview with my boss. There are about a dozen other reports of this happening that were not as well confirmed but now seem plausible. Apparently he “stress interviewed” this candidate by asking him open ended questions, letting him talk for a while, and then ripping the answer completely to shreds.

    I am trying to understand the thinking behind this approach – is it some sort of weeding out process or hazing ritual? If so why apply it to some candidates and not others? There is no clear pattern based on gender, professional interests/skills, etc. and it doesn’t seem to be him taking out his frustrations on people either as before and after this interview he was in a good mood – joking around and such. It seems like an intentional tactic, but WHY?

    1. Miles (is not my given name)*

      Could be anything. Some professors very famously don’t like freshmen, I’m sure some managers don’t like rookies/entry level employees.

      Maybe he has some perception that a person fresh out of college might struggle in the “real world” and is weeding out people who can’t handle the stress? The only way to know for sure what his reasoning is is to ask him.

    2. Mephyle*

      • For some reason, he sees reaction to stress as the most important thing that will set apart the most desirable candidates.
      • He just can’t let a ‘bad’ answer (by his standards) go – he loses track of the context (i.e., a job interview) and insists on correcting it vigorously – he is the kind of personality that Must Be Right in all circumstances.
      Do either of these seem to fit?

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      What is wrong with people? What the hell is wrong with people?

      I could see, maybe, *maybe*, the “stress interview” technique with a high level candidate. The few times we have had higher level positions, I’ve pushed some back and forth to see how the candidate dealt with a pushy back and forth (since that would happen on our management team), but making entry level applicants cry?

      Sounds sadistic and an abuse of a power position to me.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I don’t care what level I am interviewing at, if an interviewer makes me want to cry I am withdrawing my application, ON THE SPOT. I have been very fortunate in that any job I interviewed for people were gracious. It was only after I went to work for them I found out what they were really like.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Yeah, I mean, I’ve never interviewed and hired very high level people. Do you stress interview a CFO for a $150 million dollar company? I don’t know. I don’t have an opinion and I don’t care because that candidate should be able to defend herself.

          The few higher level report positions I’ve interviewed, while we were gracious, congenial even, I’ve pushed certain buttons because I’ve wanted to see how the person worked with a vigorous back and forth. I was looking for either condescension or extreme defensiveness, which we needed to avoid. That’s as close as I can get to understanding the “stress interview” crap.

    4. AnotherFed*

      This seems really strange given that all your other first-hand experience with him has been positive and supportive. What was your interview process with the boss like – did you get open-ended questions, and successfully answer them? Did you have feedback on your answers in person?

      One thing I’ve noticed with many entry-level candidates is that they are more likely to have limited work experience, and some of them really don’t answer the questions being asked. Obviously, ripping them up and making them cry is way overboard, but I have accidentally brought one close to tears when I had to keep repeating/rephrasing questions and asking tons of follow ons to get any detailed answers.

  171. Olivia*

    I have a question for those who are well into their careers. Do you ever get to a point where your learning hits a plateau and when did it start to happen? I’m still early in my career, so every time I join a new company, I’m excited to learn a different way of doing things, learn new skill sets or build off of existing skills, and learn about new industries.

    But I think about the managers I’ve had, who’ve been working for 20-30+ years and have a wealth of experience to draw upon. They’ve already worked in a variety of companies and dealt with every kind of work situation. In their shoes, I have to wonder at what point do they stop adding to their skill sets? If they are the ones managing people, they don’t necessarily need to stay current with new technologies, right?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It depends on what I am learning. Some stuff grates on me, but it always did. I get annoyed at things that are needlessly complex. I get really annoyed with plans that are obviously bad from the start.

      People are vastly different one to the other. Some people define themselves as old when they hit 40 and they just slow down. Other people are still going strong at 70 something. I have seen people refuse to learn a particular aspect of a job and because of their seniority everyone just picks up that person’s slack. When I was in my 30s I refused to learn to drive a forklift. (That was a mistake.) But my reasons had nothing to do with my age and everything to do with my already staggering workload.
      I worked with a woman who was 80 and could not get the knack of turning on her computer. Yet, the man who comes to repair my personal computer is 82. He drives for an hour to get here. If it is snowing I have to call him, if I do not call him then he WILL show up here! Differences in people.

      I have seen people burn out and just stop adding to their skill set. And then some people have health reasons interfere and they just cannot take on more new stuff. These things (burn out/bad health) can happen at any age.

      It might not be true right now, but in the future I think it will be a fatal decision to decide not to learn the technology because of age. The technology is growing so fast, I cannot picture it slowing down. I think that in the future if a boss does not try to keep up the boss will render herself useless to the company. It won’t be optional, keep up or leave.

      I think about how much just cars have changed. My father passed in 94. If he came back and saw what we were using, I honestly think it would take him a moment to catch on. And he was not a dull-minded person at all. My belief is we should commit to learning until our dying day. That commitment will only help us, never hurt us.

    2. NicoleK*

      Maintaining your skills and staying current with technology will depend on where you work and your priorities. If you work for a small company, you typically wear several hats so it’s important to stay current with trends, skills, and technology. I also believe that depending on the company and department, it’s important for a manager to be able to step in and do the jobs of their direct reports. So again, even if said manager has been managing for 20 plus years, manager should stay current.

    3. Love to learn*

      At 57, in a director role now, I learn new things every day. In the search to always improve, to meet the customer’s changing needs in new and innovative ways, to better serve employees, and to develop the organization in ways that are sustainable, I spend much time reading, researching, digging into stats, and meeting with others to figure out what’s next. Every team leader in our organization shares this responsibility and every employee is invited to contribute. It’s a continuous cycle of learning!

      Organizations that don’t adapt and evolve tend to wither, and the longer you are in a career and the higher your level of responsibility, the more you must take charge of your own continuing education.

      If your organization does not offer opportunities for your continued growth and development, you might need to change jobs. In our organization, we do not have a lot of team lead roles, but we still offer opportunities to learn and to take charge of projects to anyone who is ready.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      54, it’s never stopped, fortunately, as I’m addicted to learning new things and would have big issues being engaged and productive if I wasn’t .

      But it’s never stopped. (and I’ve been in the same industry and the same company for almost 30 years)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think that addiction is a trait of a good manager. I have seen people my own age or younger get absolutely worn out by learning a new thing. But often times my reaction is my curiosity takes over. Some days I catch myself saying “oooohhh, new/shiny/INTERESTING, must find out more!”

  172. NicoleK*

    So I was inspired to share this story after reading today’s questions about siblings in the same department. Sibling work story from hell coming up.

    Many years ago, my two cousins (sisters; Mary and Jane) and I worked in the same department. It was a department with about 35-40 employees. Mary was older than Jane by several years. Jane did not approve of the guy Mary was dating so Jane physically assaulted Mary at work. Her goal was to get Mary fired. Jane got canned instead. Jane is still a bit of a mess and Mary moved to Europe several years after the incident. I’m not sure if they still speak to each other.

      1. NicoleK*

        Jane likely assumed that if the two were involved in a fight, one or both would be fired. Obviously Jane had issues.

  173. Ms. Elizabeth*

    So, I started a new job not too long ago. I’m finding if there’s a question of where things are regarding my projects, or if there’s an issue that a customer raises, my co-workers either approach my manager first or they email a whole bunch of people (5 or 6 people and cc’s they department manager). Of course that annoys me because they don’t bother asking me first. We’re all in the same office and closeby. Most often, my manager will tell them to ask me if it’s a question as to the timeline. However, the e-mails are terribly annoying. How do I get my co-workers to break this terrible habit and approach me first as I’m in charge of the project? I really hope that they’re not trying to make me look bad.

    1. The Commish*

      I have the same issue at my new workplace. I think it is partly because I am new and there isn’t a lot of comfort there yet, and partly because they were used to handling all their issues this way (it could be as innocent as that). It is good that your manager is sending them back to you, but I would consider telling them yourself that you would prefer to deal with any issues with your projects directly. You might also ask the manager to be more firm in telling staff to direct the issues back to you.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      If you are good at your job, this will likely sort shortly. Trusting “the new person” takes time, as does fully understanding what “the new person’s” job is.

      If you’re pleasant, helpful and responsive, soon people will learn to cut out the middleman and go straight to you.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Just keep doing your job, and answering their questions quickly and politely when they are re-routed back to you. If the job has been vacant for a while, is new, or had a poor communicator in it before you started, these people may have all just had to work around that however they could for a long time.

      If it’s still going on in a few weeks, could you post or send project schedules out periodically? It sounds like that’s one of the main things people are asking about, so if you could proactively push that info out for them to have before they need it, it might reduce questions and make other people realize you’re on top of your stuff.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d give them 6 months. If you do not see a significant change in that time, then ask your boss to step in and redirect them.

  174. Midwest Manager*

    I am hoping for some honest feedback on my situation at work. I am the new director of small county healthcare agency in a rural midwest state where I manage 12 people, but only directly supervise 4 people. Everyone but me is non-exempt and paid hourly, and most have been on the job for 15 to 30 years. It has been a rough first year, as the person I am replacing was there for 20+ years and in my opinion let the staff run wild. Staff came and went as they pleased, took WAY more than their allowed half hour lunch, ran person errands on work time (going to the grocery, visiting friends, etc.), and literally spent hours online shopping and surfing social media. I have talked to them all about being promptly at work when they are expected to be, not running errands on personal time, not spending all day online shopping and face booking, etc., and things have improved somewhat. I still have trouble with people showing up on time, asking for approval before taking time off, and things like that. I am tempted to just let the smaller stuff go because there has been some improvement, but it still bothers me.

    I have been trying to move us toward what I feel is an acceptable level of work ethic and discipline, but I am afraid that I may be expecting too much, or that I am pushing things too far. Can anyone in a similar public sector small office tell me if what I am expecting is normal, or am I being too optimistic and naive about staff behavior? Maybe this level of discipline is not normal in a government sector job, even though I feel strongly that it is? I am a first time manager, am 34 years old, and I am hoping I can benefit from some of your experience. Thanks in advance.

    1. Love to learn*

      I’ve been in a similar situation. Some thoughts for you:

      – It takes about 3 years to shift culture when you take on a role like this. Change happens one step at a time.
      – You will get resistance. Some people do not tolerate change well.
      – Over my first year or so, I established expectations, situation by situation, and those became the basis for a rewrite of the employee manual. We reviewed it at a staff meeting and it is now part of our onboarding.
      – Expect some turnover. You cannot make everyone happy. Employees with a good work ethic will appreciate the changes and will be inspired to stay if you raise the bar.
      – We try to be goal oriented rather than rule oriented wherever possible by aligning our expectations with the organization’s mission statement and our aspirations for creating a positive work space. One tenet of our mission statement, for example, talks about good stewardship of public funds which precludes online shopping when one is on the clock.
      – It may take a year or so to develop a vision for the type of workspace you want to create. It should consist of both what the organization needs to be successful and what the employees need to be successful and fulfilled in their work. This will guide you as you make decisions.
      – Change is hard, and if the organization you have taken over is one you hope to develop, change must become a regular occurrence. Driving this takes a surprising amount of energy.
      – Allow flexibility where you can. Maybe it’s okay for people to start 30 minutes late or to take a longer lunch if they are off the clock for it and still getting their work done.
      – It gets better!

      Good luck!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Nice job on this explanation, I totally agree.

        If your department is audited by the state or county you can look into what their check points are. That is what you want to work toward.
        There are other reference points to check too, such as ethics/legal/etc. You can use these as your beacon in the night to keep walking toward.

        All the while you are instilling this discipline- make sure that:
        You are following the rules yourself.
        You be fair and be approachable. They know they can talk to you.
        You back them when they are right. Make sure you go to bat for them when they need to you.
        you teach/explain. And when you just about cannot explain one more thing, continue explaining anyway.

        See it’s just as much about what you give to the situation, too. Be that boss that people want to come in and help. Be that boss whose people go home and night and tell their families- “my boss listened to me today” or “my boss said we could use my idea today” or “my boss went to bat for me today”. It takes time to build this reputation.

        I think the time can be less than three years, but situations do vary so I could be wrong. I would expect that you will start to really notice differences at the one year mark. It takes strength and there are times where you will have to examine your own thoughts/motivations/perceptions. If you are doing the job right, you will do these internal searches and self-checks many times, just my opinion though.

  175. Graduate To Be*

    *Groannnnsss* I need encouragement. :(

    I’m in the midst of a full-time job search. I have 4 years of experience and almost constant part-time employment over the course of my 2 year graduate program. I’m trying to switch industries and function which I know makes it tough but my experience is pretty applicable to the new function.

    I’m in talks with a company that has seen some of my work first hand and really likes me. They know I’m graduating in the next few months.

    The *groan* part is that they just offered me a summer internship instead of the full-time employment I had been hoping for. Need for a stable full-time job aside, salary would be a third to one half of what some of my classmates are making! (Don’t get me started on how I always end up as the one managing class and club projects…)

    Now I’m sitting here feeling really depressed and wondering if I’m really so bad that a large company can’t take a chance on offering me a job. I feel like I’ve already put my time in through numerous paid and unpaid internships. I JUST WANT A JOB! :( Blah. /rant over

    1. The Commish*

      If you like the company and would enjoy the work, then why not accept the position until something better comes along? Internship income is better than no income, and you can keep applying elsewhere and leave the internship early if needed. Worse case scenario is that you end the internship with more money and experience than you started with, and will have made some great contacts in a new field.

      Of course, this is assuming a part time internship pays the bills. Good luck!

    2. Lisa*

      ~hugs~ You sound super stressed out and I’m bummed out for you! Early stage job hunting SUCKS, and unfortunately a lot of employers take “student” as “internship candidate” not “job candidate” automatically. Keep your head up. It’s not just you, so many employers just don’t have true entry level roles available anymore. What used to be entry level is now 2-3 years experience.

      Despite your 4 years of work experience if you’re looking to switch industries, unfortunately IMO you should probably take the internship if it’ll be the first thing on your resume in the new function. It’s so costly to turn over a role when the hire doesn’t work out that a lot of employers won’t take the chance on someone switching functions. It sucks and the suck is on their side not yours, but the recession made everyone pretty paranoid :*(

      1. Graduate To Be*

        Thank you both of you. I’m definitely feeling better today and your advice was good advice. I do like the company but I am so worried about not being able to pay the bills when the internship ends. I’m sure if they have head count that they’ll hire me at the end of the internship but who knows if they will have it.

        I’m debating between this internship and holding out to see if I can find a more entry level position that is at least full-time and stable.

  176. Lisa*

    Damn I feel like I’m an advice-hog here lately, I post in almost every open thread… if anyone is still in here and willing to lend some encouragement, can I get tips on managing negativity in yourself when an aspect of your work environment is terrible but is unlikely to change & you’ve already decided not to leave over it? I have to work regularly with an executive who suffers from a severe mental illness (this isn’t me using “mentally ill” as synonym for jerk, she actually is unwell and seems to be getting worse). Without giving a lot of detail that verges on exposing someone’s medical information, I’ll just say that it is impossible to work normally with this person. Simple things like having a 1:1 conversation or giving/receiving feedback become monumental tasks. Almost everyone in the company has been burned at least once by this person, but the CEO has so far decided to keep her on staff.

    I was handling this well for a long time but a recent encounter in which she accused me of a serious offense I didn’t commit (and could easily prove it) has left me bitter. I know that it’s fully within my power to end this abuse by leaving the company, and I know it’s been my own choice not to do so, so I would like not to feel negatively about this to the point of obsessing. Honestly I am coming to loathe this woman, which is not how I want to feel about a sick person.

    Anyone have any positive self-talk, meditations, self-care rituals, readings, books, audiobooks, podcasts, ANYTHING that can help me own my choice to remain in this environment and focus on the positives?

    1. NicoleK*

      I went through a similar situation with BEC coworker at Old Job. I did end up leaving partly due to BEC coworker but here are the things I did and learned:

      1. Assume that she is coming from a place of good intentions
      2. remind yourself of her strengths
      3. if you find yourself avoiding her, go out of your way to interact with her
      4. try to figure out her communication and work style
      5. stop caring so much about what she does, doesn’t do, and etc
      6. getting away from the office and from her helps
      7. tell yourself that she’s sorry about the serious offense
      8. acknowledge that this isn’t easy for her either

      1. Lisa*

        Thank you, this is some of the stuff I try to keep in mind but find slipping more and more over time… I have learned over the past few months that she lives in a reality very different from mine, so she may be acting with “good intentions” in a world where the things she believes are true, but unfortunately her reality is littered with so much false information that her good intentions lead her to attack people and try to force them out of the company believing she is doing everyone else a favor. She does not seem to have any level of awareness that some of the things she believes happen don’t actually happen in objective reality.

        It definitely is not easy for her. She seems very lonely and in a lot of pain. When I try to reach out or make small talk, she turns and walks away, sometimes giving one or two word responses, sometimes none at all. Other times she will unload on me crying, but usually about things that are not true in my reality so I don’t know how to support her in dealing with them when in my world they did not happen.

        I feel awful for her :( but I also hate that she takes up so much of my thoughtspace either through sympathy or through my growing, unwanted dislike for her!

        1. NicoleK*

          My two cents…..Don’t sacrifice your mental health over a job. Obviously only you can make that decision. But I was in your shoes, in your place several months ago. And it was not a healthy place to be. I literally came home every single day ranting and raving about BEC coworker, sucky conflict avoidant boss, and toxic workplace. It was so stressful I feared I would have a nervous breakdown. BEC coworker consumed my life and I couldn’t stand her. Sevens months of dealing with BEC coworker was the worst experience in my professional career. I regret was that I didn’t start looking for a new job sooner. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I’ve moved on from that job but I’m still dealing with aftermath.

          1. Mirilla*

            I agree that this job sounds like it’s consuming you. I’ve been in your shoes. It’s a horrible place to be and the months of working with this person in my case has taken a serious toll on my mental health, as well as the mental health of my coworkers. In my case the person is no longer there but I am, and given how the company ignored the situation for so long, I no longer want to work for these people because I don’t feel future issues would be handled any differently. I’m just letting you know that even if this person isn’t there in the future, you may have lost respect for the company and would want to leave anyway. I wish I had started my job search much, much earlier in the process. Once I lose respect for a company or the way it’s managed, there is no going back and it’s time for me to move on.

            1. NicoleK*

              Yes, that’s exactly what happened. I lost a lot of respect for my boss when she did nothing to address the issues. And I came to the realization that I really can’t work with people I didn’t respect. I didn’t want to work with my boss and BEC coworker anymore. So I left.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The reason people leave is because it is almost impossible not to get negative and not to obsess. I know first hand that the accusations of serious offenses will only increase and it will pull down your health. In her mind she has a goal of pulling down other people, she will not stop until someone stops her.
      It is what you see and it will probably continue to get worse. In the end, I know that no amount of meditation, eating healthy, self-talk etc can go up against this. If you chose to stay then understand that each day will be a struggle. That is what it is. I watched my coworkers develop heart conditions and in the long run two others of them died.
      I am not clear on why you have decided to remain in this potentially dangerous situation but that is not what you asked about. So it’s only fair to warn you that these things do not go well. At all.

      1. Mirilla*

        Agreed. You can’t underestimate the effect this will have on your mental and physical health. I tried everything to not let this person get to me, and at the end of the day, nothing helped. Let’s be honest here. We spend more time with our coworkers than our families in many cases. We don’t have to like them but when mental illness/severe personality disorders pop up, being around this person can be hell on earth. You keep thinking “I can deal with this. I can reason with this person and get though to her” but you see, you can’t. Their reality is not the same as yours (and everyone else’s). I’m sure it’s not just you that she’s affecting either. It amounts to an unhealthy work environment. I blame management though that turns a blind eye when one employee causes the company to implode.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I could write a book about this stuff. I have all the patience in the world for someone who is in crisis (of any sort) and working on their problems. Matter of fact, I have done some strange stuff in my work life in order to help a person in crisis who IS working on their problems. To me it is a privilege to offer something of value to someone else.

          I draw the line at a person who is in crisis (of any sort) who is NOT helping themselves AND they become abusive to me. (Notice the AND, there are two parts to my reasoning. Sometimes people cannot help themselves but they are not abusive.)
          My definition of abuse includes: repeated yelling; cussing AT me; manipulating my words/actions; lying; interfering with my relationships with others in a harmful way; tampering with my work or setting me up to fail in some manner; etc. And I need to see several of these behaviors before I am convinced I have a problem where I need to change what I am doing. It’s easy to misunderstand things, that is why the check and double check.

      2. Lisa*

        Hopefully you have email for followup comments enabled since I took so long to get back to the thread (apologies, I make Saturday my minimal-technology day). My reasons for staying are pretty convoluted but the big one is I’m a team lead and without me my team has no real protection from this person, which is even worse in my mind if I abandon them because I hired all but one myself, relocated one and brought two with me from previous jobs, so they are there because of me. (All were hired before I realized this big huge problem in the company.)

        I’m also heavily invested via equity in the company and think it still has a legit shot at greatness. And, two of the other execs are people I’m very fond of and don’t know if I would find leaders I like so much in another company.

        1. Observer*

          Don’t stay because of your team – they also have the ability to leave.

          If you CHOOSE to stay, OWN the choice and don’t be a martyr about it. That’s step one to (possibly) not getting bitter. Step two is to reframe how you see this person. It’s like a lion or some other untamed predator. They are dangerous and you have to protect yourself from them. But you don’t get ANGRY at them or bitter about their existence. So, you protect yourself from this person, but you do so realizing that this has nothing really to do with you.

          I would ask myself, though, if allowing someone to be this abusive and out of touch with reality is really good leadership.,

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I came back looking for you, but I don’t know if you will see this.

          So you are basically using yourself as a human shield to protect autonomous adults?

          The problem with these environments is that a person’s skills start to slide, as survival does not depend on work skills but rather survival depends on one’s ability to deal with someone who is not rationale. This is nothing you can put on a resume and nothing that will advance your career.

          However, allowing yourself to be a human shield WILL put you in the hospital, as you absorb all this nonsense in effort to protect your people. It starts with aches, headaches, stomach aches, back aches. Then it moves on to problems sleeping, problems waking up. Oh it keeps going, as you can find yourself snapping at the very people you are trying to protect. Then heart arrhythmias, stomach ulsers, and then the real fun stuff starts.

          The reality of it is that there are many companies out there that have a good solid shot at greatness. This is not the only one.
          No this is not a great company, they are harboring this individual and doing nothing about it. This individual will sink their entire company. That is how these situations go. This is what weak management looks like.
          You are worried about abandoning your people, what if they abandon you and you get stuck holding the bag? You might be able to hire them at the next place you go to. This would mean not only do you save yourself but you also save them, too.
          You have two execs you like. That is good. The world is full of very likable people. If you stay there you will only meet two of them.

          Wait. We haven’t even gotten to the years of therapy you will need to function in a normal environment again as you have to relearn how to trust people, how to work with people who are competent, how to take people at their word and so on.

          Please google and read up on the characteristics of Adult Children of Alcoholics. All the things ACAs have to learn to survive will be the things you will have to learn to survive this. You think you are protecting your people, in reality you are making it easier for this situation to continue.

          You are in a very dangerous situation. You need to plan a way out. Not the answer you wanted to hear. Truth be told, no one can help you cope with this woman. She needs treatment/counseling. I have over 30 years personal/work experience dealing with issues like this. I am giving you my absolute best advice based on my experience. And I am worried for you.

  177. Nonny Nina*

    I posted this in the reality check thread, and a few people suggested I repost it here for any opinions and discussion:

    I have a small dilemma – I wonder if someone could help me out with a reality check.

    I was hired at my current job a while ago, and accepted an initial wage far below the industry standard for my profession – it’s above minimum wage, but not by much – because I was fresh out of university and still had a lot to learn and a lot to be trained in on the job. It was essentially a “probationary period” wage.

    Two years later, I’m still in the same job and still on that probationary period wage. Living costs have been going up, so I’ve been asking about a raise every time I meet with the CEO who does our six-monthly performance reviews, and every time, I’m told that’s not on the cards for me yet because I have performance deficiencies. I’m meeting my targets, I’m getting everything done, but I apparently need to work more on my “soft skills” before they can consider me for a raise.

    I’ve asked other people in the same profession as me, and their opinions have been varied. Some have said that I’m being taken for a ride, and that they’re just saying I have this deficiency in soft skills so they don’t have to pay me any more and it’s an area that’s not measurable – if I was really that bad, they wouldn’t have kept me on after the probationary period, or would have fired me by now. Others say if I’m not up to scratch then I’m not entitled to a raise, and raises are only to reward absolutely stellar employees. (Still others have called me an “entitled millennial” and say I should just be grateful to have a job at all. I don’t know if this is true – that’s why I need a reality check – but there are certainly more constructive ways they could have said it!)

    Really, I don’t want gold bars and company cars – I just want to be paid at the industry standard and be able to start paying off my student loan. Meanwhile, I can’t get another job (I’ve been looking) because this one is my only reference and they say I have performance deficiencies that are holding me back.

    So, where am I going wrong here? Reality check, please? Am I probably truly a bad employee who isn’t yet worth more money, or am I naively being strung along? Is it normal to keep a bad employee around and just not pay them any more than minimum wage?

    Responding to the comments in the reality check thread: no, I haven’t been given anything measurable, or any specific examples of where my “soft skills” are deficient and what I need to do to improve. For the first few months, I assumed I was improving as I settled in and gained more confidence; since then, I’ve been trying to put plans in place myself to try and get help with it:

    I had another employee of the company in a client-relations role sit in on my consults with me for a few weeks to give feedback on how things came across that I might not be aware of, any mannerisms, tics, phrasing, eye contact, that sort of thing, and whether I was explaining things clearly in discussion with clients. He gave me some very useful tips about the software I was using, and once or twice pointed out privately that my office was far too hot and the client was sweltering while I’d hardly noticed (I’m a cold fish), but besides that, after a few weeks said he couldn’t see much point in continuing because as far as he could see I had good client rapport and wasn’t doing anything he would change.

    I’ve done several courses – in my own time and at my own cost – in communication and teamwork, and made a conscious effort to take notes and put specific strategies in place.

    Most recently, I’ve seen a professional coach to see if I can get some one-on-one help with soft skills, and she (with the OK of my boss) spoke to some of my colleagues and managers to see if she could get some anonymous feedback on specific soft-skill things for me to work on. That’s the small update since I posted in the reality check thread – the people she spoke to have said that I sometimes undercharge clients for my work, but that I’m a “very pleasant person”, easy to talk to, and one manager said that I’m “a pleasure to work with” and that she wished I was in her department. (Which warmed my heart, I must say, since I was starting to get a bit down in the dumps about all of this.)

    So once again, I’m stumped. Does anyone have any suggestions of other things I could do to work on this?

    1. Lisa*

      Is looking for another job an option? It sounds like you may just not be exactly the kind of person they want to develop. “Very pleasant” is not necessarily glowing feedback in every culture. In one culture that might be exactly who they want to keep on long-term and invest in, but in another they might actually be looking for someone they’d praise as “a real go-getter” and “a stone cold killer” or any number of other more aggressive terms. It could be (and I hate to phrase it this way, ugh) they like you as a meets-expectations performer, but your “cultural fit” is not allowing you to be an exceeds-expectations performer deserving of a raise.

      How do people who do receive raises and promotions in your organization behave? Do you notice any big differences between their style and yours?

    3. NicoleK*

      I knew two individuals (at different jobs) who had been on PIPs, were actively being managed out, and both received annual increases (paltry but increases nonetheless). Honestly, if it was me, I’d stop trying to make it work at current job. I’d focus my energy on the job search, resume, cover letter, interviewing, building confidence, and networking. If you’re concerned about the lack of references perhaps you can get a part time position or volunteer position. Through that process, you’ll likely gain additional skills, additional contacts, and other individuals as references.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Well I don’t like your boss.

      We once had a rep who could not understand, objectively, why we kept telling her her soft skills were terrible. She thought she was fabulous and her customers loved her and, from the slice she was telling, she wasn’t wrong. She was very smart, very organized and for customers who overlooked her blunt way of speaking, she was good at executing their orders. She was kind of a train wreck, though. Our style is white glove and upscale and she sounded like somebody at the DMV. (An example would be, if a customer called in asking about a rush order, another rep would smoothly guide the customer through and she would start with “well, I don’t think they can do that but i’ll check for you, blah blah” << starting with doubt and a not small amount of harshness in her voice about the request.)

      We coached, we gave specific examples, we did a lot, but mostly she just argued back about how we were wrong. We ended up moving her to a non customer facing position (which royally pissed her off) where she was successful for a number of years before she flamed out brilliantly for unrelated reasons.

      So! I tell this story mostly as a benefit of the doubt for your boss (whom I don't like) that maybe you can't see the forest for the trees in how you are interacting with your clients. If you think this is possible and someone will give you some solid freaking examples, for pete's sake, it's worth working on for your next job as it will only help you.

      To the main issues here:

      IDK what's going on. From the way you tell it, something smells. There is some reason they are holding you back. Let's assume it isn't pure cheapness because if you're working with clients and pricing your own work, which is alluded to in this post, that means you are bringing in income and there's not a reason to be cheap with people who are bringing in income. It's just a bad strategy.

      I would want an answer to my question: I need to make $X. You tell me that I can't make $X until I improve something. Could you please tell me, specifically, what that something is so I can work on it?

      Right?

      "Soft skills" can mean a zillion things!

      I am very irritated that you have to come to the internet to have strangers try to play a guessing game re what's in your bosses' head when he could just tell you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Since you have brought in other people to try to help you with pointers and these folks are basically coming up empty, my suggestion is get a new job.

      My real thought is this company you work for is a bunch of users and you need to move on.

      If you want to though, go back to the CEO, tell him all the things you told us here. And tell him you want your raise. See what he says. If he still gives you the same bs line, skip it and go directly to applying for a new job somewhere else.

    6. Observer*

      By the way, you can get another job. You are not the first person in this type of position, and lots of them don’t stay around waiting for their current bosses to decide that some nebulous soft skills have appeared. One thing that might help you is to ask that they not contact your current employer. A lot of places will honor that kind of request.

  179. JN*

    Backstory: I botched my first attempted at giving a disciplinary action last year. An employee was nodding off on the job, when the supervisor wasn’t present, and it frustrated her coworkers, we (the supervisor and I, I’m her manager) talked to her, we said it had been brought to our attention she was falling asleep when the supervisor wasn’t around, she denied it was happening. Because she’s night shift and we felt this was the best course of action first to have a casual discussion and give her a chance to correct things, we asked her to just be wary that if she gets tired to take breaks, or go home get rest, etc. because sleeping was unacceptable behavior and next time we had to discuss it more serious consequences would occur. A few months later it was happening again, this time a coworker took pictures. Between when it happened and when I was told and could do anything about it, she had asked the supervisor if she was in trouble for something because she heard people saying she was and he told her not to listen to people gossip, that he would talk to her directly if there were any issues. We decided this time it would be written up. When we were able to pull her aside to discuss a couple days after it happened she felt like she was being ambushed because her supervisor had just told her not to listen to other people saying she was in trouble for something. First we talked to her, she denied it, we had the pictures but I didn’t feel comfortable using them because I wasn’t sure if it was legal, she demanded to know exact times, couldn’t give her exact times it happened only the days, she said she’d seen other people sleep and they don’t get into trouble, the supervisor hadn’t seen or heard of other people sleeping so we couldn’t do anything about it if we didn’t know it was happening, but we knew for sure she was. She continued to deny it and absolutely refused to accept the disciplinary action if we couldn’t give her exact times it happened. I know I didn’t handle the situation well, and I was also not adept at responding to direct conflict like that. She even went to my boss and said she would never do anything like that and that she wasn’t signing anything because she didn’t do anything wrong and hasn’t ever slept o the job and nobody else has gotten in trouble and she’s see other people do it, etc., which he sort of shut down by asking, “so you’re telling me you’ve NEVER fallen asleep on the job, EVER?” But we resolved it by going to HR together and agreeing that she knows sleeping is not allowed. Because she felt that other people had slept without reprimand, HR suggested that I remind the team that it’s not acceptable and if they see inappropriate behavior, they should bring it to their supervisor and then it will be handled accordingly. That’s a long backstory, recently I sent an email reminder to the team and I requested everyone reply that they understood the content, it detailed correct practices for taking breaks and meals because there was a trend of variances from the policy happening across the department. I felt like this email with a response from each individual was a way for me to document them saying they understood I sent a similar reminder email in the past, but what I didn’t do the first time was get confirmation that people understood. I got an email back from the “sleeping” employee that said she didn’t understand why, if this was already explained in the past and if it was still an issue, weren’t people getting reprimanded for it. And she said, “To me, it’s frustrating to see things go on such as this issue and it doesn’t seem like anyone gets held accountable for it. I could be wrong and they are but I just don’t see the change.” So, I just feel like she is taking this dismissive tone towards me which I partly understand because I am new and I know my learning curve can negatively affect things, but I also don’t appreciate it, all things considered, I just don’t feel she needs to be talking to me like that. And it annoys me that she talks about me holding other people accountable when she sat there an told a boldface lie about sleeping even though I had definite proof it happened but couldn’t use it. So, comments, ideas how to handle this employee, these situations? My response to her was that we did talk about these issues before but I decided to reiterate it to everyone one, especially since we have new hires, that any individual counseling would be handled by me and the supervisors as we deemed appropriate, that I appreciate her understanding of what is asked and that she can provide a positive role model by following them. But I know she will continue to respond to me like this, saying it’s frustrating seeing other do things even though she does them herself and I don’t know how to respond because I know there is truth to what she says, I do need to improve my management skills and learn how to hold people accountable more effectively, but still…like Bernie Mac said, “Lord, I know you’re testing right? Send the devil down here to tempt me with evil thoughts.”

    1. Love to learn*

      Your response to her email sounded fine. When an employee who is being reprimanded starts pointing out others doing the same thing or some worse thing, they are employing a tactic to distract you. I usually make a simple statement that I always follow up on complaints, and then redirect the conversation back on course.

      I recommend Cy Wakeman’s Reality Based Leadership for understanding drama dynamics better.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Way, way, way too much drama. If you’re a manager you have to be above drama, not get drawn into. You have the authority level but if you let yourself get drawn into the drama of a situation, not only does that put you on even level with the people you are managing, you can also “lose” to someone who can out drama you. This employee seems to be very good at drama and you’re getting pwned.

      So, reset.

      First of all, the employee should be primarily evaluated on the quality of her work. If my best employee fell asleep at her desk one day, I’d be like “OMG are you okay, what is wrong???” Right? Because that’s my best employee and I’m not going to give her crap for that. If my worst employee was caught napping, I’d roll my eyes and add that to the list of reasons why her performance was lacking — but I wouldn’t make a huge deal about that particular incident.

      Reset. You all have said your piece about whether one should or shouldn’t sleep at the desk. It’s over. Don’t continue the conversation. Move on from here and see what happens next. Address any things that happen next without getting into back and forth and back and forth.

      Also: if you find yourself in a situation where you feel you have to send pictures to defend yourself, you’ve gone too far and you need to calm down and strategize a better way to close the conversation out.

      1. JN*

        Yeah I agree with the reset. I think the drama is what I’m not used to and I got pulled into it by not knowing how to respond best when she flipped out at me and she got the upper hand because I let her like you said. I know that the drama is very heavy on that team because I was an employee in another related department before I was assigned to manage them both. It’s very deeply ingrained in them already as a team to blame each other for everything and it’s something I’m working on this year with them. I did let myself get hardcore pwned by it lol. I didn’t resort to the pictures, those were taken by her coworker without my knowledge until they said they had them, I never felt comfortable about them so that’s why I never brought them up.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is really important- in families and in other groups when the members are lashing out at each other it CAN be because they are all angry at the parents/bosses. Studies have shown this.
          See, it is acceptable to tell your coworker to go to hell. You will remain employed. But if you say that to the boss, you just lost your job. So coworkers lash out at each other with all the energy they would use on the bosses, if they could safely do so.
          My guess here is that you replaced a toxic boss or a marshmallow boss, they are very angry with this former boss. Just my guess though.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’d shut down the part about other people.

      “I do not discuss other people with anyone. We are not here to discuss what other people do or don’t do.”
      Then she will restate and try to drag in other people AGAIN.
      So you repeat, “I have already said we will not be discussing other people. We are talking about you and about your work. That is the limit of our conversation here.”

      The reason she is getting traction with her statements is because there is an element of truth to what she says. REMEMBER this will happen to you a LOT. So get ready to handle it. People who are doing wrong very often will drag up actual truths in their counter-arguments. In among the lies will be truths, expect to see this over and over.

      Tell her that if she has problems with your leadership she should have been in your office before now to ask you about it. The fact that she has waited until you try to address the problem with her work then that makes her statements circumspect. Conclude with “On another day we will discuss what you need from me as a leader. Today’s discussion is focused on your sleeping at work and developing a plan so this does not happen any more.”

      1. Glod Glodsson*

        Yes, exactly. I also think this is one of the most telling examples of differences between good employees and ‘bad’ ones. A good employee will, when confronted with a mistake, take responsibility and correct the error. They might mention that they’d seen others do the same thing so they figured it wasn’t that big of a deal or something. But shifting the blame to others instead of taking responsibility just shows an unwillingness to actual improve (and in some jobs an unwillingness to take responsibility for the people you’re paid to take responsibility for). To me, it’s not so much mentioning that it’s happening a lot more than I might have noticed, but the way it’s used to shift blame.

        I’ve come across this line of reasoning as well as a manager and it always baffles me privately. Like, the only way you’re able to tell if it’s wrong if by checking how many other people do it? It suddenly becomes less wrong if others do it as well? Or is the fact that I’m discussing the issue with you THAT much worse than just ensuring it doesn’t happen?

  180. CA PM*

    I was hired as an entry level project manager. In my job prior to this, I worked as an administrative assistant, did some work on project coordination and small projects. I wanted to get into project management and this job was a stretch for me. Initially I was very happy to get this job. This past year things have taken a turn for the worst.

    My boss hired me knowing my background and for the first year I received a successful performance evaluation. Much of the time I have been in this role, my boss has compared my performance against the higher level project managers and expects me to work at their level with very little coaching or help.

    For the first six months in this role I had no projects assigned to me and spent most of my time helping the other managers with their project documents. My boss finally assigned me a project, her failing project, and then held me fully responsible for the failure. Most of my weekly status updates my boss would cancel or simply not show up.

    This year I never received a mid-year review. Apparently, my boss completed the review, but never sent or communicated to me that it was available and I was expected to read it. Today, I just received my performance review and there was not one positive comment on the review. She not only rated me as unfavorable for the one failing project, she also included a project that the sponsor decided not to move forward with. She then used the behaviors as more methods to mark my performance as unsatisfactory. Also, she made a comment that when she interviewed me two years ago she regretted not asking me more questions. Maybe I am making a bit of a leap, but I feel she regrets hiring me too.

    There was a recent change in the department and this manger is no longer my manager, however my new manager reports to her. Previous manager gave me my review and said she plans to create a performance plan for me. My question is, is this even possible for a former manager to create a PIP?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Okay, none of this sounds good. I don’t think you’re making a leap to surmise she regrets hiring you, based on your recounting of what she said. It’s an unfair thing to say (in my opinion), when the boat set sail from that port a long time ago, but, she is at least now telling you where you stand.

      (Sure, it’s possible for a former manager to create a PIP. PIP’s are internal to a company and the only limits to them are what the company says there are.)

      They have done a terrible job of communicating where you are lacking, and even that you were lacking, but they are catching up to that now. :(

      So, what do you do?

      1) start job hunting if you aren’t already. this sounds pretty serious.
      2) take the PIP process seriously. As much as you are tempted to, don’t argue. Ask for clarification on any and all points, ask for specific examples, etc. Ask for improvement metrics and work toward them.

      They either want you to improve or they have already decided to let you go and are doing a PIP as a step toward that end. You need to act on both possibilities at the same time to have your best personal outcome.

      (I know it’s not fair! It’s not fair to blindside you with this negative feedback. But you have to work swiftly to have your best possible personal outcome from this.)

    2. Steve*

      It’s possible you might be able to salvage the situation with the new manager. If the old manager gained more direct reports during the reshuffle, she might lose interest in you and/or have less time to pursue it. And maybe the new manager is a better manager and will assign you better projects, coach you, etc. I’d at least give it a shot. Simultaneously I’d be updating my resume.

      1. CA PM*

        Thank you both for responding.

        I plan to work with my boss on improving my performance while I continue to look for another job.

        Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  181. anonykins*

    Hey guys, first time poster. I work at a US-owned small business in a non-US country. Because of this, our office culture is very American but our contracts are not – I am currently on a fixed-term contract with built in yearly raises. I’ve been here two years and my contract lasts for another two years. I have a required 90-day notice period. I’m trying to figure out whether I should
    A) tough it out for another two years and then find something else
    B) start looking for new jobs immediately

    The good:
    – The job pays extremely well all things considered, and I doubt I could make this much back in the US (plus the cost of living is lower here)
    – I like the work I was originally hired to do
    – For the most part, I like my coworkers and my boss
    – I was promoted last year and told I would eventually get to train and manage new employees, possibly in other countries as well (I love traveling)
    – I was given a significant raise at the time I was promoted, to reflect the fact that I was already doing work well above my pay grade. I have been told and shown that I am valued.

    The bad:
    – Management is disorganized, to the point of harming the company. We are often told to immediately incorporate new customer service practices, only to be told to do things completely differently within 6 months. This is confusing for customers and staff
    – I haven’t actually been given any of the responsibilities I was supposed to be given with the promotion, and the idea of opening an office in another country seems to have been abandoned
    – Then again, management never communicates about these things and seems to have a policy of secrecy, so who knows
    – I have been cross-trained in work that is at an equal level to my current work but in a different specialty area. I do not enjoy this work very much, although that may be because my training is inadequate
    – My managers seem to have stopped hiring. I recently realized that, since several of my coworkers have contract end dates coming up, within six months there will only be five employees, four of which will be “managers” if you count me
    – Due to all of the above, my workload is insane. We often end up doing first drafts of highly public documents the night before a deadline, and I’m not happy with the quality of work I’m producing (although management doesn’t seem to mind).
    – Management does a poor job of retaining and firing people, and seems to be somewhat vindictive. I fear a bad reference if I leave for another job, even though I have received nothing but praise so far. I would seriously consider lying about my reasons for leaving (my SO got a job elsewhere, I have a sick parent back in the US, etc…)

    Location (but not necessarily job) related:
    – The dirty smelly city I live in is starting to affect my quality of life
    – I am paid in local currency, which over the last year has decreased to the point where I am concerned that my built in yearly raises won’t even keep me at the same rate of pay in USD. I have student loans based in the US so this is a serious concern for me
    – I have animals I’ll have to relocate with me wherever I move. A very quick, unexpected move is to be avoided

    So what do you think? Start looking to jump ship, or stick it out?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      You probably answered your own question, just writing that out.

      Sure, you can stay, but you’re not happy and it’s already over in your brain and it’s time to move on. <<< is what I think you just said.

  182. Another Millenial*

    Is it normal to create a separate corporate Linkedin account just for employer job-postings? I was thinking of creating a Linkedin account to create a job posting for work, but wasn’t sure if that’s weird especially since my boss knows my personal Linkedin account and might wonder why I made another one.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I’m not sure I understand the desire for a separate account to make a job posting, but I’ve never posted a job on Linked In.

      I can say that it’s weird and confusing when I look somebody up on Linked In and I find two results for them.

  183. inflatedjobtitle*

    Going anon for this –

    “Coordinator” was recently added to my job title; however, I don’t “coordinate” anything. It’s like a change from being called Teapot Handler to Coordinator of Teapot Handling. The change was part of a department restructuring. While I do “coordinate” the work, because I am the only one who does it, it is truly an inflated job title.

    I may be looking for a new job in the coming year. There is zero chance I will have anyone working under me (i.e., anyone else’s work to “coordinate”) or otherwise take on work that reflects Coordinator of Teapot Handling responsibilities. And, the types of jobs I will likely apply for have Teapot Handler titles.

    I worry that employers will be thrown off by the title and wonder why I am seeking roles with less responsibility, when in fact these would be lateral moves. How do I – or, do I even – address this inflated title in a cover letter and/or interview?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I’ve been a coordinator without coordinating anyone else’s work. You are coordinating YOUR work, program or project. I wouldn’t worry about this on your resume. If intrrviewers ask you whether you supervise anybody, you smile brightly and say, “I’m currently a division of one, but I’m looking to become part of a larger team and use my knowledge of the field to supervise the work of others.” But only if this is true, of course.

  184. OlympiasEpiriot*

    I’m in heavy construction, at a professional consultant firm in a major metro area, one of the approx 10% of the firm who is not male (excluding administrative staff). This week I had the pleasure of doing some on-site training of a new hire. It was a pleasure because this new hire was (a) picking up things quickly and (b) asking questions.

    It was a good learning situation as it was two days on a complicated excavation with simultaneous support-of-excavation installation and complex rock units. The biggest issue was actually with the condition and location of one of those rock units. If the contractor had been less observant or more of a cowboy, there could have been a huge problem for one or even two adjacent properties.

    My trainee absorbed a lot in a short time, seemed to gain a lot of confidence, and Monday we’ll be going over all the forms and documentation backup with a fine tooth comb. Said trainee is a newly minted M.Civ Eng. and already has a large amount of knowledge tucked away, BUT, there is a very big difference in my industry between what we get in the books and what happens on the way to getting a structure complete. Most of the problems we will spend our time on are very much not like the classwork. It occurred to me on Friday that I think a large part of this success was because my trainee is female. Funnily enough, in all my years with this company, this is my first time closely training another woman at such an early stage in her time at the firm. I have done this with guys. With only one (1!) exception, the guys all tried to act like they knew everything there was to know on a site. They couldn’t. There’s no way. I was IN the trades as a carpenter before studying engineering and I know I even now don’t know everything about everything on a site.

    I think I’m going to request we only hire women from now on.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      I’m glad you just had such a good experience…but, you’re joking, right? You can’t hire based on gender.

      If you reversed the genders in the story you just told, with you as a man, describing all of the difficulties you’d had with female trainees and how finally you got a male candidate who worked and that’s enough with working with those women, ffs, you see the problem?

      You have to hire for abilities and traits.

      Now, I understand the temptation, although if we understand the temptation we have to say that we understand the temptation of people in men in say, bro tech cultures, to keep hiring bros because they fit in so easily. How far do we want to go down *that* road in being understanding?

      Generally, we generally (and anecdotally) turn male employees over at a higher rate than female employees. (We’re at about 70% female.) That may mean nothing. It may mean that we’re not hiring as well as we should. It may mean that we’re not training as well as we should. But it doesn’t mean that we should not hire men.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am laughing. Years ago I worked in a nursery. Once in a while I would have to go to job sites and do spring plantings. In those years, not many women did this work. So when a woman did a spring flower bed, the running commentary was it looked so much nicer than when the guys did it, the colors coordinated so well, etc.

        The guy who did the flower beds before us was color blind.

        sigh.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          There was a small department I was struggling with for years. Originally, it was a person job and done by a woman and it was done well.

          After she left to move on to other things, we expanded the body count and went through a series of happened to be women, and failures. Then there were a series of men, and failures. (This is over the course of a few years. It was a problem department.)

          A senior woman in an adjacent department came to me and said “You can’t keep hiring these young men for this job. You need women. Men aren’t detail oriented enough!”

          After we scraped my brain matter off of the ceiling, I (somewhat) calmly took her through why not only shouldn’t we say that (legality), but why it’s a bad business practice to make assumptions about gender/age/race, if for no other reason than you’re arbitrarily eliminating a big section of potential employee pool. It makes your chance of success smaller, not bigger.

          Also, hello, there were women in the failed history, also.

          If I had a dollar for every time I’ve been told hush hush “you shouldn’t hire older people, they don’t learn quickly” “you shouldn’t hire young people, they aren’t serious” “you shouldn’t hire men, they aren’t detail oriented enough” etc. etc. (Although, no one has ever had the balls to tell me that a certain job wasn’t right for a woman.)

          It’s the sampling thing + confirmation bias.

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Multiple levels of things going on here…

        Yeah, obvs there’s a joke in that.

        Also, there is a “class” thing. These days (ie: post 1970’s) many people going into civil engineering classes are coming from math backgrounds, not practical backgrounds. I was in the trades and was really culturally and intellectually out of step with classmates in my program, not because I wasn’t well-educated, but because I didn’t tackle the problems the way they did. They saw them as math problems, I saw them as things to be built. I had trouble utilizing general math rules because I saw real situations in my memories that were often really individual. They had trouble envisioning how things were put together and, therefore, where to diagram stresses. I was better at visual representation of phenomena, they were better at deriving formulae.

        Ok. Bring this forward. Most newly minted engineers are very impractical. Go to visit a job site and it is messy…metaphorically and actually. Especially true of excavations.

        The men, though, almost always b.s. their way around a site. Interestingly, the ones who don’t have a similar background to me: they were construction workers who went to engineering school. (This is a demographic rarely hired by my company who prizes PHDs — a rarity in private practice — and often has an unhealthy dose of snobbery during recruitment. But that’s a separate dis ussion.) In our current culture, times being what they are, women also don’t generally try to b.s. their way around a site. The problem for many of them is the asking-questions-don’t-be-shy stuff.

        Probably once the culture changes sufficiently, we’ll have just as many female as male b.s. artists.

        In the meanwhile, it is a sarcastic, sexist wish for something that would, in the short term until I am retiring, make training a lot easier.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          I hear what you’re saying.

          There are specific degrees or educational backgrounds that we either weed out or are cautious about hiring from. They are perfectly fine degrees & backgrounds, but our experience hasn’t been successful, so for better or worse, they’ve become an elimination criteria.

  185. tbd*

    I recently started applying to jobs and am applying to a fairly wide spread in my industry, and want to explore/reactivate some related skills that will get me closer to my long term goals. I already have some strong bites, but they want to hire ASAP and have said as much.

    I started looking this past week. I am really interested in several of the positions, but I barely even know what else is out there at this point.

    Is it possible to cool down a barreling hiring process just a tad without seeming like a flake/not interested? I’m in a job that is growing increasingly toxic that is taking up almost all of my time, so I haven’t been able to devote as much time to my search as I’d like. I’m not even sure I want to stay in the same city.

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I disagree with your approach here. It shouldn’t be about how many companies you apply to.

      For the companies that have reached out to you, just follow Alison’s advice on interviewing being a two way street. Spend some time asking questions that are important to you. Is toxic job full of backstabbing co-workers, to many chefs in the kitchen, and stalling progress? Develop some questions that will help you identify if that is the case.

      If you interview well and it turns out the first company you come across is a good fit then you should not hesitate to go for it. Just be sure to conduct a thorough interview of the company.

  186. PNWAnon*

    I’ve been sick since Friday (either a bad cold or a bad reaction to a flu shot; honestly, I’ve felt worse everyday since Friday rather than better). I have a panel interview for a job I really want Wednesday morning. How bad do I need to feel to ask to reschedule it? And how far in advance should I ask to reschedule it?

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