open thread – January 28-29, 2022

by Alison Green on January 28, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 1,265 comments… read them below }

    1. A Beth*

      I was finally able to buckle down at about 4 yesterday and do a couple good hours of work, but between recruiting the fall class and kicking off the semester I am spent. I was chalking it up to being in a new position (3 months) but maybe it’s just These Uncertain Times.

    2. Amadeo*

      Web manager for a university. I don’t see students much, but I’m so tired. I want our exec staff to approve some work from home flexibility already, but I have a feeling I’ll be retired before that finally comes.

      2. H*

        I work for a University program but I don’t teach. It is a medical school program and there is such a lack of flexibility for WFH. Hence, why I am searching now.

    4. Rock Prof*

      My semester starts next week, so I’m still fine but apprehensive. However my K-12 spouse is not at all.

    5. After 33 years ...*

      For the first time, happy that I am not actively teaching this term, and looking towards retirement.

    6. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      I got more pulled into admissions work this year, and man, it’s brutal right now. There’s just so MUCH going on right now, especially with all the international applicants.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Paralyzed on getting started on projects because I’m never sure anymore if we’re going to have to “pivot” again and all the work I’ve done is for naught. I’m tired of being flexible.

      3. Prairie*

        Yes! I simply didn’t plan a program that happens the first week of spring semester every year. My boss supported me when I made the decision at the end of November but some of my colleagues were like “Your not doing ___!?”
        Welp, our classes got moved online and most co-curricular programs got cancelled for January and I’m so happy I did not waste my time and energy.
        BUT I can’t be bringing that energy and philosophy to all my programs, so I need to be strategic about what’s worth trying and what to drop for now.

      4. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        I’m so there with you. I’ve just … stopped doing anything in person for the foreseeable future. I know some people want it, and we always have better participation with in-person events, but it’s just not worth it.

    8. adminatlarge*

      Just over it. Over the whole thing. I don’t know what has changed with me, but I just can’t seem to buckle down and get any actual work done. Honestly, it’s been hard coming back because it’s recently hit me how much I hate (1) having no office and thus no privacy (2) having no windows at my desk area (3) hating the actual work I have to do (4) wearing a mask all day. I’m so tired of spending my days clicking and typing on a computer. It’s snowing outside right now and I can’t even look at it because the conference room with the windows is booked, so I’m just sitting at my desk staring my computer wondering if I should leave early before the storm gets worse (not really supposed to hit until later tonight). Honestly, the job used to be more fun. A big perk of university life was events and speakers and free food and now (for good reason) we don’t have any of that and it was such a part of why I loved working here and I really miss it. We also lost a lot of great bars and restaurants and the ones that are still open are so expensive that I’ve stopped going. I’m miserable at work now.

      1. Amadeo*

        Your first three sentences. Me too. I also don’t know what’s snapped inside my head. A mid-life crisis, an unreasonable, passive-aggressive boss who wants a programmer but has…me, having come out the other side of a site-wide redesign three months ago after two years of that big ol’ ball of stress. I don’t know. I’m having serious internal struggles with my work life right now. The university doesn’t do the fun things it used to do when I got here, like Thanksgiving dinner before we all leave for Thanksgiving break (and that stopped even before the plague, a few people whined because they couldn’t attend so it just…stopped).

        I don’t even know that another job would help me or I’d be searching more diligently than I am.

        1. adminatlarge*

          same. same. same. Can we start a support group? Because I feel like none of my friends understand. I’m 38 and going through a mid-life crisis where I’m questioning every decision I’ve ever made. It’s like I want to throw my whole-life out the window. And instead of a passive-aggressive boss, I have no boss. Well, technically I have 4 (because this is Academia so naturally I do 3 jobs at my 1 job), but it seems like none of them want anything to do with me or the work I have to do. I have weekly Zoom meetings with my main boss, but she hasn’t shown up to a single one of them since the new year started and my other bosses will only respond to email and they ignore about half of those. Over it.

          2. Amadeo*

            41, so we’re pretty close in age. My mom threatened to get me one of those SAD lamps last night wondering if it would help my attitude. LOL.

            I don’t think it’s just you and I either. I’ve gone from being part of a team of 3 to just me. I’m doing what was once the work of three people. With no raise (I asked for one three years ago, I get occasional updates “We’re still trying”). I’m tired. I’m overworked. I don’t get paid enough for the things my boss wants out of me. And most of all I’m OVER this 8-5 chunk eaten out of my day.

            1. AcademiaAnon4This*

              I will join too! I left higher ed for an edu related org and still feeling the burnout/midlife crisis/languishing.

              I was getting stuck with work piled on from a coworker who wasn’t pulling their weight, then they left, which should be better for me now yet isn’t. Somehow the mess they left behind is still my problem and somehow my fault now bc I inherited it. I was held back from new initiatives, I suspect to not make the coworker look bad? Now my new coworkers are able to do the kinds of projects I wanted to do with no pushback. It’s frustrating!

          3. JelloStapler*

            Yes. I am around the same age. I go through cycles. I still love what my job should be and honestly can’t imagine wanting to do anything else.

            I’m just tired of the typical higher ed stuff: politics, toxic positivity in some cases, lack of resources, constant pivots, higher workload, strategic plans that changed constantly with no follow-through, and the other bigger issues impacting outcomes while pressure to solve things that are out of our control.

            All the while, we all know that institutions often make decisions that hurt retention while they simultaneously ask those on the front line why it is so low. or they want to do 5 things at once that contradict each other but won’t give resources to do it either.

            That said, I have a lot of hope due to a lot of changes up top at my institution that are addressing some of these issues. I just know it will take time, I worry it will be too late for so many colleagues. But I’m also exhausted after years of the struggle listed above. The thought of starting over somewhere new (new place or new career) exhausts me, I also genuinely love my team and my students and what my job should be without all the rhetoric.

          4. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

            I’m 39 and would join that support group in a hot minute. Things in ed are bad, bad, very bad right now. I am hopeful that the pendulum will begin to swing soon, but I am bone tired. Glad to know I’m not alone, but sorry to hear that others are struggling so much, too.

        2. Sparrow*

          The first three sentences hit for me, too. It’s been a struggle since the beginning of the school year, when we switched to a hybrid work schedule. Even though it was only a couple days a week, I was/am SO resentful about having to waste hours of my day commuting (on public transportation!) when I just go into my office, shut the door, and see literally no one all day (with the exception of classes, most things are still online, and I don’t teach, so.) Since coming back from winter break, my motivation has completely ground to a halt. I’ve been debating whether I should talk to my boss about some kind of short leave where I can focus on improving my mental health, but I’m not sure it would do any good. I’ve also wondered whether this would be the time to try to switch into the corporate world since I don’t really see any way to progress from my current position, but honestly it just feels so daunting and I have no energy to spare.

      2. Middle Manager*

        Big ol’ retweet here. We were remote until July, then remote again from winter break until this week because of Omicron, and now that I’ve remembered how much more I love working from home I just…cannot. I’m in a student-facing role and I find myself just not responding to emails for days because I don’t want to and I’m tired of the same questions. My heart’s just not in it and I resent every second I’m still doing this work.

        1. JelloStapler*

          I find it hard to see the same issues over and over that I cannot fix – that need to be campus-wide. Our institution is finally getting to the point where it recognizes that one team cannot fix everything, and it is such a sigh of relief, but it’s going to take a bit of time to move through that. In the meantime, compassion fatigue can hit hard.

      3. Aggretsuko*

        I hear ya. I don’t want to have to go back to the office next week. Perks were fun back in the day.

        I’m also being harassed to join a focus group about a mission statement and I DON’T WANT TO. I DO NOT CARE. MISSION STATEMENTS ARE STUPID AND USELESS. Also I get in trouble for speaking up (guess why) and the last thing I want to do is be encouraged to speak.

        They also scheduled it for me during a regular meeting, so I said no. I hope they don’t ask me to reschedule but they probably will. UGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.

        1. Missing Statement*

          Mission statements are great when institutions follow them versus being empty words. It’s even worse when solid feedback is looked down upon as people being negative. I’ve been there in both cases in the past. I know it’s not easy.

      4. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I feel this. I used to love my field, but now all I can think is how tired I am. I have to go to work almost every day for the next 40 years?!

      5. no sleep for the wicked*

        Chiming in with a me too.
        I am lucky enough to have a hybrid schedule that lets me pick up the household stuff my partner can’t cover because she’s now the primary caregiver for 2 family members. The problem is my schedule is all over the place and I never feel able to settle down and work unless I have a targeted need/emergency.
        New boss, assigned to a diff dept, constant interruptions. Many days I rush home to take care of family stuff then sit in front of my work laptop, staring at nothing. All the busy work and projects on hold while I wait for upper management to get on board with a new service I’ll be providing.
        Faculty never learn to be good coworkers so it’s a constant cycle of entitled jerks every new term (my ‘customers’ are all faculty/instructors).
        I had planned to be working on my farm business by now, but political upheaval and then the pandemic happened, so now I’m calendar-watching for 9 more years until retirement while my little farm slowly returns to a dream.
        It’s soul-crushing, and I’m one of the lucky folks here.

      6. A Beth*

        Really good point about the perks of working at a university. I hadn’t thought about how that was impacting my satisfaction but it makes sense that everything seems a little less…worth it right now. Between the (understandable) loss of perks and the expectation that we still come in just to attend meetings online anyway, it makes sense that I’m feeling less motivated. At least I get to wfh a couple days a week though.

    9. HigherEd Disaster Zone*

      There was a news story a few weeks ago about a private plane that crashed and then got hit by a train – that about sums up our department’s start to the year. The hits just keep coming.

      I am interviewing elsewhere but it is so hard to even focus on articulating what I want in a new job when I am burnt out and don’t want to do anything at all for a very long time. But this afternoon I will smile for a hiring committee and hope for the best!

      2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        Are you one of my coworkers? Because this sounds like us … and there’s so MUCH of this going around. The staff who desperately need help can’t get it because there’s no help to be had.

      1. AGD*

        Me too. I’m tired and looking forward to the weekend, but not to an unusual extent in either regard. Things are going okay.

      2. JelloStapler*

        It’s quiet for me too, but before too long I am sure the wheels will start coming off for many of our students and it will become a monsoon.
        All in all, things could be a lot worse- I am just tired of this pandemic never-ending and keeping all the balls in the air (professionally and personally) and never knowing what shoe will drop next and how it will impact retention in ways we cannot resolve.

    11. Hermione*

      I’m so tired, and I have been for a LONG time.

      At the end of 2020 most of the senior staff in my department opted into retirement incentives offered by the university, and so we’ve been seriously understaffed for over a year now. We’re working on staffing back up, but we all know how long hiring in higher ed takes. Meanwhile, leadership keeps piling project after project and unrealistic deadline after unrealistic deadline on us, and it feels like there’s never the time to really think through an overall strategy, let alone time to take a break and recover.

      We’re all completely burnt out, and nobody in leadership sees it. I’m not looking forward to the fallout.

      1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        Does leadership not see it, or does leadership not care? I’ve seen both where I work.

          2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            I think this is a huge and overlooked issue with higher ed (and, honestly, society as a whole). I’m a recent higher ed refugee and within the last 6 months, 4 VPs at my former institution either left or announced their retirements this June. It’s a grueling job and at a certain point, no amount of pay is worth what they have to put up with.

      2. Medievalist*

        I’m a tenured professor, teaching in person. We have understaffing and too many deadlines too! We’re beginning hiring again, thankfully, but that won’t be of any help for a while, since new faculty need mentoring and take a while to become productive. The service load is killing me, but we’re out of other warm bodies to share in being department chair or doing governance and major recruitment and all the other things that can’t stop happening just because there’s a pandemic. And on top of that, not knowing who will out of my classroom from one day to a next (because of COVID infections) makes planning almost impossible. I don’t feel as desperate as that poor mother yesterday or as my poor junior colleagues without tenure, but everything does feel somewhat impossible.

        And then this was an especially hard week. I feel like I’ve hit the part of the semester where meetings and grading and emails are beginning to pile up, and if I can’t stay on top of everything now, everything will avalanche as we approach midterms.

      3. Gracely*

        We have the understaffing for partly the same reason, and partly because our new admin decided to lay off 17 (yes, 17!) staff back in 2020. They refuse to replace staff, but they’ve been on a VP of this-and-that hiring spree since they got here. We’ve been told that they’re not worried about turn over, and that we were overstaffed. No. We were adequately staffed, and then you laid off a ton of people and got others to retire, and now we cannot do all the shit we used to do AND entirely new shit on top of that.

        And yesterday, we just found out another staff member I work with is leaving to go to a new university. It’s great for her (such better pay, and way more prestigious university), but I don’t know that we’ll get to replace her, and her dept was already short-staffed.

        The one saving grace is that my boss and my grandboss are actually great bosses, and the day-to-day work I do is something I love.

        I just worry that all the good stuff is sitting on a shaky fault line of impending doom, and there’s zero I can do about it.

        1. JelloStapler*

          Re; VP hiring spree: Oooooh the best is when they hire a bunch of consultants, that is telling them the same thing faculty/staff is telling them, then they don’t do any of the suggestions while telling us they can’t because… they don’t have the money.

          This happened at my institution a few years ago.

          1. Gracely*

            They hired consultants and did a survey, and…refuse to give us the results.

            Some good things have been done, I’ll absolutely grant that. But this admin seems to only care about optics and sports, and…we are not a university with a top sports program. Far from it. Lord knows we won’t be competing with any nationally known teams anytime soon, not even as the crappy team that the ranked team has come in to be crushed for the homecoming game.

            1. JelloStapler*

              Refuse to give you the results? Ooph. That is awful. They always gave us results, they just didn’t follow through very well. Granted, that was an issue with our previous upper administration altogether, so I am hoping things are changing.

              1. bleh*

                Yess!! More Assistant Deans and VPs will solve everything. And expensive outside consultants whom you ignore if they tell you what you don’t want to hear. Actual staff or faculty lines – no can do. It’s ridiculous

        2. no sleep for the wicked*

          OMG the ‘plug all holes with more management bodies’ thing. I am so tired of seeing my frontline coworkers denied any kind of extra pay (even though it could be managed via our union contracts) for the incredible work they do, while we hire assistant directors by the boatload.

        3. Pyramids*

          I’m so sorry. I worked at a similar-sounding university for years. I miss my work friends but nothing’s changed and everyone is so demoralized.

    12. Prairie*

      My institution published our official work from home policy. (They started working on it in 2019 lolol.) VPs have a lot of discretion and have to write their own guidelines (that fit within the policy) by March 1. So I may get to start working remotely a few days/week later this spring.
      My VP had us back in person before it was sensible so I was not optimistic about his plan, but his recent comments make me think he has come around to the idea. Maybe he’s seen how well it’s working in other teams. Or realizing that this is the future of the workforce so we need to adapt.
      So with this on the horizon plus new-semester-energy, I’m feeling optimistic

    13. Rosie*

      It feels like we’re a locomotive charging ahead while wheels are loose and wobbling and things are going to crash – hard – soon. We’ve been understaffed for years, and more and more people on the staff side are leaving now for better pay elsewhere. I’m seriously contemplating looking elsewhere (as much as I would prefer to stay) because I don’t want to have things land on me when something big blows up.

      1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        Start looking now. You don’t have to take the first or even second job offered, but you should start looking immediately. You don’t want to start a job search AFTER everything blows up.

    14. Boop Bop*

      So many coworkers are looking for new jobs. My dept is lucky because we have more students than ever but no increase in staff so…. yeah, I cried before work this morning. I work with international students so going from the last administration then straight into a global pandemic and also having a kid under 5 has just all been a lot professionally and personally.

      1. JelloStapler*

        We had a huge Voluntary Separation and RIF in 2020, pay cuts and no raises while area Universities did not. Our salaries were already recognized as low, and our workloads increasing- above and beyond became minimum. People are leaving in droves due to this, and admin notices, is trying, but has been slow to do much that will actually matter (granted we also had a lot of changes in our senior leadership- great changes that will be good long term and they’ve done more in the last month that the leadership before has done in over a year). We’ve had some issues with morale and climate even before the pandemic hit.

        I get so frustrated when I see our student numbers are awesome but staff/faculty don’t see the reward for it, just more work.

    15. AustenFan*

      Feeling really incompetent, as I’m back in the classroom but also trying to Zoom students to class who are in isolation. I’m feeling like I’m not doing anything well. We also do small group work, so the groups have to use Microsoft Teams, otherwise the feedback from multiple Zoom users in the same physical space is horrendous. I’ve been teaching for a long time, but last year was all on Zoom and I was on sabbatical in the fall. Feeling like a D- professor.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        + sympathies – using multiple modes for simultaneous “hybrid” teaching simply does not work; there is no ‘virtual’ substitute for field teaching and research; students using cellphones can’t properly see things on slides that I need them to see… I sent in my “official” retirement notice this morning, to take effect in August. I am rapidly passing through burnout to the anthracology stage.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Man, I feel everyone’s comments so hard and have never been thinking more about retirement than I have lately (and I’m not even close). Been in higher education administration and advising for many, many years, and I can’t freaking focus to advise, manage projects, talk to students, teach, etc. I don’t know whether it’s:
          a) burn-out
          b) covid-brain
          c) adult ADHD
          d) pandemic malaise or
          e) some monster-crappy combo of all of the above

          Desperately trying to marshal my energy to get students engaged in programming and other activities, and fighting an uphill battle all the way (because I think they’ve got some version of A-E as well).

          About 2 weeks ago, I was coming up against hard deadlines for programming. I finally started making policy for these events and saying to the campus covid team, “Hey, I need to give people instructions on how this deal is going to happen, and I’m not getting guidance from TPTB. So, here’s what I’m going to do (insert language); tell me if you have anything to add to that, because it’s going out later this afternoon.”

          Beats waiting for the optimized (and incomplete) directives from above..

    16. MCL*

      UGGGGGH. Honestly, I don’t work with students or teach credit classes, so I’m not nearly as stressed as many of my colleagues. But our giant state university campus is basically leaving it up to departments how they enforce/don’t enforce WFH policies. At least mask mandates are in effect and vaccine adoption is high (but not mandatory). I am basically WFH right now, many of my colleagues are expected to come in, even for desk jobs that could be done at home. I am only on campus once or twice a month right now, and I would not be going if I didn’t have an office where I could shut the door.

      I’m somewhat actively looking for other jobs. I don’t mind working in higher ed, but I’ve been here for the first third of my career and I’m ready to explore new things (or maybe a new institution if I stay in academia).

    17. Forkeater*

      Between our layoffs last year, people voluntarily leaving including two more last week, and omicron, we barely have enough staff to keep operating.

    18. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I’m not either. This week every day has ended with me thinking “TGIF, oh, wait.”

      I’m exhausted and my mood is crap and I am having a hard time caring.

    19. This Old House*

      At a public IHE. They pushed back the start of in-person classes for this semester, but staff are still required to be at work in-person. I’m wondering why staff lives and health are less valuable than student lives and health. Perhaps only because we are literally less valuable to them, as we’re not FTEs. I am not sure if using that lens makes it better or worse.

      1. rr*

        I am not in academia, but yeah, I related to so much of this. I am so alternately tired, depressed, and full of rage.
        I don’t see how I’m going to return to work Monday. I had a big blowout with my boss about my wanting to work from home the last two days of the week after COVID. He thinks I should have been back last Monday. I thought the tracers told me this Thursday, which is what I told him. But they called me yesterday, and I was supposed to be home until today. But I just took yesterday and today off. And now I have 20 hours of PTO until August. Because I wasn’t going back. I still feel crappy, the house is a wreck, and I’ve been working from home and taking care of the immunocompromised person that I brought COVID home to. Plus, I know that the other people who tested positive weren’t following masking guidelines even after their positive tests. I also don’t trust him enough to think that if he were positive he would’ve stayed home and/or masked. Apparently, the CDC guidelines only apply to me in that office.

        I have to keep the job, not for the money or the insurance, but to get another job. I ended up interviewing for something via zoom yesterday, and I just can’t project any enthusiasm. I wouldn’t hire me. And, of course, all the people who I interviewed with – no masks, no distancing. I read posts like yesterday’s about the working mother, and I don’t have kids, but it just seems so impossible right now to go on. But apparently, nobody in charge cares. Or they only care about themselves. I am just so angry and depressed all the time, and now I get to feel guilty and fearful about the possible repercussions of COVID for myself and the person I live with. Because I have a terrible job. But it sounds like so many people have terrible jobs, so maybe I should just give up thinking there are better ones.

      2. HigherStay-cation*

        Oh my gosh yes- faculty and students get breaks but that leaves staff vulnerable and working harder than everyone else. We leave it up to divisions as well and ours does very well and some seem pretty flexible except poor Admissions and few bad apples here and there.

    20. MediumEd*

      I am a professor and program director at a small design college. Honestly, I’m looking to get out of academia and back into my practice. The pandemic made me realize what a toxic industry higher ed is. If anyone has any pointers on how to get out of the ivory tower, I’m all ears!

    21. A Teacher*

      Adjunct here. First semester back on campus in 2 years–taught online zoom combo class. It was an odd week. Students don’t know me so it was like pulling teeth to lighten stuff up.

      Hoping it gets easier

    22. Dragonfly7*

      Keeping an eye out for other public service jobs (3.5 years til possible forgiveness!). I turned down an interview yesterday that was up thankfully up front about what they are able to pay, which is less than what I earn now. Finishing applying for one in a different department over lunch.

    23. Pam Adams*

      Academic Advisor here. My campus has decided that classes will be virtual for the first 3 weeks of the semester in what was to be our real “return to campus” term. Other than that, it’s the usual chaos of helping students find classes, reassuring others that, yes, they are on track for graduating in Spring, and getting my Fall graduates cleared.

      I actually got a few exchange students this term all of whom needed to switch their scheduled classes. It’s nice seeing study abroad opportunities opening back up.

    24. TotesMaGoats*

      Assistant dean here. Fending off the questions from admissions on why new students aren’t getting registered. Fending off EM from butting into the COVID mandate process. Every problem comes out of the woodwork right now. I’ve had a intractable migraine since Nov 2020. So over all of it. Stay in your lane and leave me and my team alone. Meanwhile, can someone look at why admissions is a freaking revolving door? Turnover is normal but not like this.

      Applied for a step up role at a sister school yesterday. Wasn’t actively looking but it’s getting that way.

      1. MediumEd*

        I am going through the same thing with admissions at my college. That department seems to want to blame academics for the reason that students aren’t returning or taking a semester off. We are in a pandemic, nothing is certain. If a student tells me they are taking a leave of absence for medical reasons or because they can’t afford tuition, what am I supposed to do? Force them to register?

      2. HigherStay-cation*

        Thankfully our EM is backing up mandates. But there are so many campus-wide issues that impact retention that our division cannot control and all the meetings and programs won’t make up for it. Plus, tbh, we often wonder if what we are selling is not accurate once a student gets here.
        Medium ED (love the username)- exactly, and giving them some money now doesn’t help down the road when they still cannot afford school or is still underprepared and should not have been admitted, to begin with. Mental Health issues abound and our Counseling is understaffed and cannot meet demand. I agree with what someone said about COVID only being used as an excuse when it’s convenient for them, not as an actual reason thigns are hard.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          To clarify my EM comment, our dean of students office has the responsibility for COVID mandate enforcement. They’ve done a great job. Now EM is butting in with POORLY written emails for us to send and wrong information.

          1. JelloStapler*

            Our Dean of Students has the same charge and has also done very well. Are the poorly written emails and wrong information all written in a sales voice with only information that students would WANT to hear? I could see that happening.

            Thankfully, where I work our EM does a fantastic job with communication and vetting it with others to be sure it is correct and in the right “voice”. But I would be very irritated if that was not the case!

    25. JelloStapler*

      Doing okay, we stayed in person and seem to be stable, but I have colleagues at other Universities who are struggling because of the pivot and uncertainty.

      I’m just tired of our Institution not seeming to understand that the pandemic is still impacting retention and will for years. It’s hard to get our students engaged and all of us are exhausted by taking so much on our shoulders and going above and beyond but not getting much back for ourselves.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        YES. Lots of lip-service for self-care and no recognition that everyone is burned out. Lots of staff turnover in the middle-level management as well. Critical folks who have been here for years and who will be difficult to replace.

        1. JelloStapler*

          Or recognition that is also lip service – the equivalent of hospitals buying pizza for tired and overworked nurses instead of pay raises and enough staffing. I recognize they are honestly trying; but at some point, people get tired of waiting and go look for other jobs.
          Yes, we have lost a LOT of institutional knowledge. When I started here there was a sense that people usually stayed for a long time. That has unfortunately no longer been the rule – although we still have a lot of long-haulers.

    26. Concerned Academic Librarian*

      We start next week and it’s the same old stuff, different day. I have come to loathe being on campus and my department administration is being a giant butt about any working remotely.

    27. Dr. Doll*

      I feel like our univ has tried really hard to be sensible, and fortunately in our state and county there are plenty of regulations to fall back on. We have a vaccine mandate, indoor mask mandates, etc. But everyone wants what they want: The students who want to be f2f are made that we started remote; there are students who never want to attend and want the university to magically create entire online programs from nothing. Many tenured faculty want to move out of the area and teach fully online while making contingent faculty (read: lower paid and job insecure, also more likely to be women and/or people of color) do any and all face to face teaching (while yapping about equity for students).

      I know that faculty are really worn to a thread, especially the contingent ones. My team *thinks* they’re worn to a thread, but they are not, not like faculty and like student-facing staff. I’m trying my best to provide looots of flexibility for my staff, not pile on the work too much, listen to when they say “can we not do this right now” etc.

      I wish that the university as a whole would stop piling on, though. We have had several large initiatives and when I have asked, point blank in meetings with decision-makers, “What are we NOT going to do so that there is space for this?” they will literally *laugh*.

      I plan to retire in ~3 years. We have truly astounding benefits and retirement options, so I want to stay for that. Also, I DO have a really great job, it’s just right for me and I get lots of emotional satisfaction out of it. The plight of the faculty weighs on me, though, and I can do very little to help.

    28. University Schlep*

      Oh my GAH! I was already not doing well and then some bureaucratic nonsense happened this morning that got me so riled up that I used my entire lunch hour to go home just so I could post a rant on AAM without using company resources.

      This is 2022, why are we still doing things like computers were never invented!!!! We just spent the last 2 years pivoting to put everything online and people are still so technology resistant when the one good thing that came out of covid was streamlining a bunch of processes to make them doable remotely and now some dinosaurs want to go back, or even better, do it BOTH ways. Not both like have a choice of electronic or paper. Both as in process it all electronically and then turn it into paper in case something happens to the computers. Like that would be our worst problem if the systems fail. Oh yes and do it twice with fewer people thanks.

      I have kids getting their tuition paid because of this job and I am questioning whether that is even worth it.

    29. Academic Librarian too*

      I am three years away from retirement and if they come up with a package, I would take it in a heartbeat.
      I used to be one of those A-hole passionate people. Came in early, stayed late, worked nights and weekends, juggled many balls, spoke at national conferences, did the whole tenure track thing and was made Full during Covid. For over 30 years. Mentored the next few generations.
      Above and beyond the call of duty.
      And now.
      I spend all my time reacting.
      Putting out fires.
      I notice how little other people put in and think hey, since it actually doesn’t matter at performance review time… I used to just keep my eyes on my plate.
      I’m disappointed in myself.
      I don’t recognize this person.

    30. mdv*

      I work in a non-academic department of a major state university, and feel incredibly lucky that our directors have embraced working from home in a hybrid schedule designed to keep the office minimally staffed. That said, I’m totally fried this week, more than usual. Not really sure where it is coming from.

  2. WFH Set-up*

    Remote workers, talk to me about your monitor set-ups. I’m trying to decide whether to buy multiple monitors, to buy one giant monitor to use split-screened, or some Frankenstein option of all of the above. How did you decide what to go with? Are you happy with your decision, or what would you change?

    There’s so much to consider. Portrait versus landscape, minimizing footprint due to limited space, incorporating a sit-to-stand desk, possibly mixed OS issues due to working on a PC and having a personal Mac…

    1. geek5508*

      If you have the desktop space, I recommend two Landscape-oriented monitors. Seems to provide the most flexibility for me, but YMMV

      Mine are provided by my job, FYI

      1. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. I think two good sized landscape monitors is the best use of space for me. You can kind of ignore one to the side if you’re actively working another screen, but you also have more flexibility of physical space with two vs one giant split screen.

    2. Beast ala Mode*

      I have a single curved 34″ LG, and it’s fantastic. I have it on a swivel mount, and it works with both a Mac and a PC.

      1. Meh*

        My partner has one of those plus two regular monitors – and the laptop. His desk looks like a command center.

    3. cubone*

      I am a laptop + monitor situation! I don’t have an external webcam so I use the built in laptop camera. It’s usually my second screen that has “less” important stuff eg Slack, Spotify, a document for reference I’m not actively reading. My monitor is pretty big so I find I sometimes split screen just the main monitor if I’m working on two things.

      I know it’s not functional for all spaces and budgets, but shelling out for a motorized sit-stand desk was worth it. I am very tall so I STILL have risers for both screens (an arm for the monitor and a cute little wood platform for the laptop that has “shelves” for storage). I regret nothing and i love my setup.

      1. Neosmom*

        This setup works for me, too. In addition, my laptop sits in my keyboard drawer and I have a wired mouse plugged in so I don’t have to use that pad or round scroller thing inserted in the “margin” of the GHB letter keys.

        1. cubone*

          oh yes, I have a Bluetooth mouse. And a split keyboard (the Kinesis Freestyle 2), which is definitely not for everyone but I looooove.

      2. edj3*

        Same set up w/ one monitor and my laptop. I bought a manual sit/stand device that sits on my very, very small desk. It’s easy to move up or down and was about $200 on the river site if you’re looking for something similar.

      3. Llama Wrangler*

        I am a laptop + monitor situation! I don’t have an external webcam so I use the built in laptop camera. It’s usually my second screen that has “less” important stuff eg Slack, Spotify, a document for reference I’m not actively reading. My monitor is pretty big so I find I sometimes split screen just the main monitor if I’m working on two things.

        Yes this is what I do. I have my monitor on a movable arm so I can adjust it as needed, and use an external bluetooth keyboard and mouse. I haven’t been able to figure out a good setup for doing conversion from sit to standing desk, but I think it’s theoretically possible. I have two different cables so that I can plug in both my work (windows) and personal (mac) laptops as needed.

        1. Annie E. Mouse*

          I do the laptop/monitor also. My super low tech sit/stand desk is to put my laptop on top of a couple of boxes and just use its keyboard for a bit. But I have a lot of calls and usually time my standing segments with calls so that I’m not actively doing anything intense where I’d type a lot or need both monitors.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I have a work Mac. I do a lot of development, and so the more monitors the better.

      I have the Mac elevated about 2.5″ on a dictionary, so I can have a separate keyboard and mouse.

      Then I have two large monitors (20″ +) next to each other, above the laptop. It’s an old-fashioned flip-top desk, and the monitors are on top of the upper portion of the desk. So the three screens are in a triangle and I don’t have to move the mouse really far in any one dimension to get to all of the screens.

      1. littlebumbletea*

        I have a very similar setup, only on a standing desk with monitor arm attachments, and it’s been great to have all the monitors. I do a lot of writing and design, so not having to minimize and move around tabs and documents constantly to complete things has been a real help.

        The laptop I have has a terrible mic/camera setup, so I’m able to stick my standalone webcam smack in the center of the triangle for meetings.

    5. Green Beans*

      Mixed OS shouldn’t matter for an external monitor, except you might need to buy a converter to plug in the Mac.

      What kind of work do you do? I like multiple screens because I’m usually working with writing on one screen, researching on another, or main work on one screen, slack/email on another. But if you’re working mostly in one program with a lot of parts (anything in the Adobe suite) or doing mostly data interpretation, I’d personally go for the one giant screen and split when you need it.

      Anything with data entry/analysis, I’d say go for two screens.

      1. WFH Set-up*

        Good point.

        I do content design for medical devices, so I’m using a lot of Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign, but also cross-referencing to extensive Excel sheets and landscape-sized (but detailed) engineering drawings.

        1. Green Beans*

          Oooh, I’d go for a big screen and if possible, also a regular size (landscape, unless your excel sheets are easy to navigate in portrait) one in that case (you could potentially get away with giant screen & laptop, particularly if the laptop is big.) If not, a big one split 2/3 would probably also be helpful – I know a lot of people working in visual data and the giant screens are really helpful.

    6. A Beth*

      I’m using a tv as a second monitor, and it’s not perfect but it’s definitely better than not having a second screen. I have both my laptop and the second monitor on risers, for both ergonomics and to put files and supplies under them due to limited workspace, and use a wireless keyboard and mouse to try to keep things a little neater. But if I needed to go sit-to-stand I would be out of luck at home I think!

    7. MechanicalPencil*

      I use my work laptop screen (on a kitchen shelf divider thing) and then a large-ish 34 in monitor. I have similar space constraints, so I try for “less is more”

    8. A Feast of Fools*

      I have a sit/stand desk that isn’t very large (28″ wide by 20″ deep).

      I bought a monitor arm clamp thingy so my monitor is attached to the desk, not sitting on it. Which means that I can swing the arm back a bit, such that the monitor is not actually directly over my desk. Meaning I get to have full use of the 28×20 horizontal space.

      I have my laptop open on the desk, so that’s a 2nd screen. The I added a side table and put another monitor on it, for a total of three screens. All are in landscape mode.

    9. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I use an elevated extra monitor (handme down from my son) and then my laptop on the desk. Keeps the web cam right in the middle of the action, so I’m able to do virtual meetings and still see all my notes and things. The laptop often gets boosted by a variety of actual books with pages if I’m presenting a workshop and want to perfect the situation.

      I think I need to solve my lighting issue though. May have to swap out my table lamp for a ring one.

    10. ecnaseener*

      I’m boring, but I have a small laptop screen and a nearly-square landscape monitor because that’s what I was provided.

      I definitely find myself using the monitor more, that laptop screen really is uncomfortably small. (And I have a separate keyboard, so I can’t have the laptop screen close to my face because I need to fit the keyboard in front of the laptop keyboard.)

    11. MizChiffon*

      What ended up working best for my mixed OS system was getting a keyboard and mouse set up that let me go between the two (MX Keys and MX Master 2S mouse, both from Logitech). I switch between my personal Mac running Office 365 on Chrome and my PC laptop where I access our network drives and work on spreadsheets.
      I’ve got the laptop up on “blocks” to keep it at basically the same eye level as my Mac monitor and it’s worked pretty well over the past almost 2 years.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I also use Logitech MX input devices to switch between my personal Mac and my work Windows machine – the Keys and the Ergo trackball, for me – and save me some desk space.

    12. Colette*

      I have a floating desk (which means it attaches to the wall and can be at any height) at standing height, and a drafting (higher than normal) chair. The desk is small, so I have one monitor in the middle, my work laptop on the left, and my home laptop on the right. The monitor is connected to both, so I can switch. Both laptops are open, and their screen is my second screen.

    13. Not my real name*

      I have a sit/stand with two landscape monitors on… arms? I had some eye issues two years ago and for a while couldn’t see my laptop. Being able to move the screens around was huge for me, I could pull them closer on bad days and move them further back when things improved. I do have to occasionally switch everything to dark mode because it’s a LOT of light otherwise.

    14. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I have one large HP monitor (I have a Mini Mac) and one portable monitor I use as my second which sits low and off to the side. I’m considering another portable as my third. I’m at my dining room table so I couldn’t take up all the space all the time. It works well for me. I’m considering buying an adjustable rolling table that can nestle into my workspace but where I can roll it away at dinner time.

    15. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I grabbed my husband’s monitor when he went back to the office, so I have 2 23” monitors on risers. It is so much better than my previous monitor + laptop screen (it was on a laptop stand). I almost always need to have multiple window in view at the same time so this set up is perfect for me.

    16. PeanutButter*

      One portrait as my auxiliary/coding screen one landscape is what I use. If I REALLY need an extra utility screen I’ll keep my laptop open while it’s docked to the screens but that has Cat Related Hazards.

    17. Meow*

      I have 3 equal sized monitors in the office, 2 horizontal and 1 vertical, which is my ideal. At home, I have a much smaller desk, so I purchased a larger monitor and have a smaller one off to the side. When I bought my larger monitor, I bought a curved one for funsies, but I actually really like it for work. I feel like I see the edges of the screen better, so it works well for split-screen.

    18. anonymous73*

      When I first started in August on a government contract, they provided me with a laptop. I asked about a monitor, and they could have gotten me one, but it would have taken about a month and I would have had to drive to HQ to pick it up (which is over 60 miles away in Northern VA, no thanks). So my husband bought me a gigantic curved monitor that is big enough to have 2 different documents/screen opened up on it (might even be enough to fit 3). I’ve since gotten a second laptop from my company, along with a 24″ monitor, but my desk was too small for the monitor and I would constantly have to swap laptops depending on the project/meeting. I FINALLY got a bigger desk a few days ago that allows me to roll from one side to the other and have each monitor hooked up to each laptop. It’s so much better.

    19. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a 27″ monitor landscape on the right and a 24″ monitor portrait on the left — I use the portrait one for Outlook (at the bottom), Teams chat (at the top), and a software application that is annoying to scroll, so I just make it tall so I don’t have to. (Sometimes Word documents too.) Excel and most of my other software goes on the landscape one, which is also designated as my primary monitor so that’s where the toolbar/clock etc are. My webcam is on top of the landscape one, about 1/4 of the way across from its left, which is about the halfway point on both monitors together, so it’s fairly central and I don’t look distracted whichever monitor I’m looking at.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        That sounds similar to mine. Two 27″ in landscape, side by side, a 27″ in portrait, and an archaic 17″ that I refer to as a “half screen” due to its resolution (1280×1024) that generally just has a terminal emulator on it.

    20. WomEngineer*

      Right now mine is a laptop with a 27” monitor, provided by my employer. I mostly just use the monitor. I like that it’s wide enough to have multiple windows visible. It’s likely that I’d get a second one once I’m in the office.

      For personal projects, I have a curved Samsung monitor. Again, I like the big area (for designing and computer modeling) and the curve is nice. However, it won’t connect to my laptop unless I leave it unplugged overnight, so if I were to buy it again, I’d get another brand.

    21. Sharon*

      I have a laptop on a stand* with a wireless keyboard and mouse and a second monitor – I like the setup and when I’m in the office I will often use the laptop + two monitors as I do a lot of editing, comparing versions, etc.

      *The laptop stand was recommended to me by my physical therapist some years ago when I was in an auto accident and I love it. It raises the laptop screen up to a better height so your neck doesn’t hurt from looking down all day.

      1. Liz*

        I also have a laptop stand and it was a game changer for me! Prior to the pandemic, and it, i HATED working from home. Finally realized it was only because I didn’t have a good setup. Now I have my laptop on the stand, but a full size keyboard and monitor, which really is all I need and use, and its like having a full size desktop like I do in the office. Now? i prefer WFH to the office!

    22. SarahKay*

      I have two landscape monitors, which was the same as I had on site, but I also now utilise my laptop screen. Disadvantage is that it’s a bit of a space-hogging set-up, as it’s wide, but the advantages of ease of work-flow more than make up for that.
      I keep my laptop screen just for putting things on when I’m sharing my screen on Teams – that way people can see everything on it that I want to share, but any IM’s etc don’t show; they pop-up in my ‘primary’ monitor instead. For daily work I’m usually processing SAP on the right screen and using MS Office on the left screen.
      I love this set-up so much that I’d buy my own monitors if I moved to a new job and was expected to work just on a laptop screen.

    23. Joyce To the World*

      I have a laptop that I keep docked and closed at all times unless I have to use the camera. I can’t see the screen on my the laptop as it is too small.
      I have 1 monitor which is my preference as I have vision issues and 2 would cause havoc.

    24. Professional Emailer*

      I’m hybrid and have one large screen at the office and two monitors at home. I prefer my two monitors because I find that windows want to default to full screen with the in-office set up so I waste a bit of time snapping them to whichever part of the screen I want to work on. Not to mention the startle I get every time I’m the first one to a Zoom call – my face does not need to be that big! At home, the window just fills one monitor leaving the other open for email, Skype, etc. It seems like a small amount of time to move windows around but it adds up when I’m in crunch mode.

    25. Two Dog Night*

      I have my laptop monitor on the left, on a box, which usually shows Outlook (and AAM right now. :-) ). I’ve got two 24″ monitors to the right of the laptop, both currently landscape, although I’m thinking about trying one on portrait. The middle one is the main working monitor; Teams lives on the monitor on the right.

      My desk has a keyboard tray that holds a wireless keyboard and mouse–I really recommend that if you can manage it. I find the laptop monitor more useful when it’s not a desk level.

    26. SC in NC*

      Like many, I went with a sit stand desk. I added a 6″ riser to the back of it with two 32″ monitors. That allows me to set the monitors at a more comfortable depth/height and run all of the connections below the riser. I’ve used multiple monitors for years and could not work without at least three screens including my laptop. This is similar to our set-up in the office but my WFH monitors are significantly larger which I love. Something else to consider, a decent webcam mounted on or above one of your monitors allows you to engage with people while still looking at information on your screens. It’s not critical but it looks better if you have regular calls or presentations.

    28. Just Here for the Free Lunch*

      I have a laptop + landscape monitor in my home office. The monitor is a recent addition, and while I like it because I can use OneNote while I’m watching a presentation on Teams during meetings I need to get a new desk now because the monitor has taken over all of my space and I hate all of the exposed wires.

    29. Nicki Name*

      Laptop + 2 monitors. It was the standard at my office, and my company allowed us to take everything home.

      Both my monitors are in landscape orientation, but some of my coworkers have found it useful to set up one in portrait mode.

    30. RagingADHD*

      I have 2 landscape monitors that I use frequently to draft documents based on reference material. I can keep the reference material open on one and work in the other. Love it.

      One screen is on an elevated stand on my desktop. The other is mounted on a swing arm to the bookshelf next to my desk, so that when I want to use my tall side table as a standing desk, I can flip it around.

      Truth be told, I have yet to use the flip-around-standing-desk option, because I have used that side table as a dumping ground for unfinished stuff and un-filed paperwork for long enough that it’s a hassle to clear it up. But hope springs eternal.

    31. Panda*

      I have a 49″ curved monitor. It’s awesome. The only pain is when I need to share several documents at once on Teams. But otherwise I just share the document that I need to share.

    32. A Poster Has No Name*

      Man, this so much depends on your work. I’m a data analyst, so spreadsheets & reports and whatnot so I have two landscape monitors side-by-side. One is 27″ and the other is 24″. I don’t really have the space for bigger ones, and generally don’t need that much more monitor space, anyway.

      If I did a lot of writing or editing I’d probably want a portrait monitor for that to reduce the scroll, but it wouldn’t be useful for me.

      I have an Uplift sit/stand desk (48″x30″) which is just big enough for two monitors on their stands, my keyboard and general desk paraphernalia. I have a Wavlink USB hub that allows everything to be connected to the laptop that stays tucked under the main monitor stand.

    33. KuklaRed*

      I have been working from home for many years and have a pretty good setup. I have a large L-shaped desk (an original SteelCase – thank you, Freecycle!). On one side I have my personal laptop with an additional HDMI 24″ monitor. On the other side I have my work laptop with 2 24″ monitors, both on stands which have storage underneath. I can slide my laptop into the storage area if I wish or, if I need additional screen real estate, I can pull it out and open it for a 3rd screen.

    34. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I have one laptop on a stand plus a monitor that I pulled out of my cubicle, but I’m actually considering getting an all-in-one desktop that has an HDMI in port so I can use that as my personal computer when I’m not working (currently I have my personal laptop on the other side of my monitor, and it looks very silly!)

      I sometimes wish I had a third monitor, but I just didn’t have the space on my desk for it. I’ve also considered buying one of those laptop monitor attachments that I can use when I am on the go but need dual screens!

      My laptop stand has made the biggest difference – it looks like a metal C shape, and it holds the laptop up a couple inches. I bought a wireless keyboard so I don’t have to use the laptop keyboard and that’s been awesome. Going wireless as much as possible has made my desk so much cleaner and easier to use!

    35. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I use my laptop and one medium sized landscape monitor that was a hand me down from a friend who used to WFH and is not currently working. She actually gave me another monitor too that I would love to use but I don’t have the desk space.

    36. Irish girl*

      I have to large widescreen monitors. I still split screen documents so i can see 4 at a time across both screens. you jsut have to make sure you desk will accommodate them both and if you do sit-to-stand there are monitor holders for 2. Also if you have a universal dock that works with mac and PC you can minimize issues with connections that are different.

    37. Gracely*

      My WFH setup was my laptop and my tablet; everything we share at work is Google Suite/Office/whatever it’s called. They were the same OS, but a different OS than I have at my desk at work.

      Everything that needed typing, I did on the laptop, whereas research, video meetings, etc. I used my tablet.

    38. Quinalla*

      2 landscape monitors is what I have and I love it. I still sometimes will split 2 documents on one screen with something bigger on the other screen, but yeah high recommend. I also have mine on mounts that mount to the very back of the desk, so it leaves nearly the entire desk open for papers, work tools, post-its, etc. which is also awesome.

      I do have a sit/stand desk, I don’t use it a ton, but try to at least use it during meetings so I’m not sitting so much. A solid sit/stand desk is not too much more expensive than a good regular desk, so if you think you might use it, go for it. I have a thing under it to hold my keyboard mouse (again more desk space that way) and my tower PC so it raises up with the desk. It is really nice!

    39. Rain in Spain*

      I have a relatively small sit-stand desk (it’s less than 4 feet in length) and it’s just deep enough to comfortably hold my laptop, monitor, and keyboard/mouse. I am not a physical paper person- I do 100% of my work on my computer. Due to space constraints I went with one giant monitor that’s mounted on a movable arm. I often compare documents and have plenty of space to do that on the one big screen.

      My on-site office has two monitors, which I do use/enjoy (I keep my email and time tracking open on one and then actively work in the other), but it is not *necessary* for me. Depends on what you like!

      Also, I know many coworkers who are working off of a cloud document service to circumvent the OS type issue- but that really depends on the nature of your work, security settings, etc.

    40. Witty Nickname*

      My old set up was Portrait monitor (mostly for space reasons, but I liked having that option for certain tools & sites I used regularly), Landscape monitor (main one I used, so it was in the middle), laptop screen. And sometimes I complained about needing a 4th monitor. Alas, I had no room left for it, and my laptop would only support 2 external monitors. I have a tiny space along one wall of my bedroom to use for work, so my desk is only about 4′ long. The monitors took up a lot of space but it was worth it because my job regularly involved looking at multiple screens/tools, as well as facilitating meetings, screen sharing presentations, and taking notes all at the same time.

      In my new job, I have a laptop that will only support 1 external monitor. It makes conference calls difficult. Unless I’m sharing the notes on screen, I’ve gone back to taking them by hand and then typing them up later. But I’m getting used to it and finding I don’t mind the 3rd monitor as much as I thought I would. Most of the time anyway.

    41. Meg*

      I have a laptop and a portable second monitor and I LOVE it. the second screen is 15″, and so is my laptop. I found for me personally, having 2 screens was more important and helpful than bigger screens. I initially picked the portable one because it would be easier to store in a small apartment when we went back to the office (oh the naivete of the early months of covid). It has ended up being super helpful as I’ve been staying with my grandpa for a couple weeks a time every couple months, and I can bring my entire set up with me. I ended up buying a stand for mine (to replace the folio type stand it came with) and have it on a small shelf/riser on my desk. My desk is a sit to stand and it’s totally stable while I’m moving the desk.

      Even though I initially picked it because I didn’t have a permanent office space in my small apartment, and I’ve since gotten a bigger desk, I’m still really happy with the smaller monitor. Not having a giant screen makes my little office corner feel less obtrusive in my living room. If I were going to work from home full time permanently, AND had a dedicated office room, I would probably get bigger monitors.

    42. Bosslady*

      It depends some on what you are doing all day, but I’ve been working from home for about 12 years and I love my set up. I have the electric “L”shaped ikea standing desk with a large monitor and two extra monitors. I could probably get by with just one extra monitor but I review medical records and write reports so this way I don’t have to do any flipping back and forth. I can be writing and looking at documents at the same time.

      The ikea desk is about 5 years old and was definitely the best price among similar desks and has been great. It has a net underneath to hold all the wires so it looks nice. I always put my desk up at the end of the day so that when I get in to my office in the morning I’m standing. Otherwise I don’t tend to put the desk up until I’m uncomfortable.

      When my high school aged kids were virtual all last year we bought them extra monitors to use with their school computers. They both resisted saying they totally didn’t need it, and within a week both said they didn’t know how they could do without them (and it’s rare to get a “you’re right” out of teenagers!)

    43. Jessica Ganschen*

      Two monitors in landscape and the laptop open in the middle below them for a total of three screens. I adore it and can’t live without it now, but I’m pretty lucky to have a decent sized desk in a decent sized room.

    44. Purple Penguin*

      I work with a medium sized wide monitor (25in?) because a) I have limited space (my desk is 3 ft wide and the monitor takes 3/4s of the room) b) I work in a hybrid of sitting and standing c) that hybrid is Frankenstein-ed with old textbooks serving as my monitor stand when I am standing (a cardboard box holds my keyboard when I’m standing – I cut it to be at my arm height) d) since I’m moving things often, I wanted a monitor that wasn’t too heavy and my medium sized one is relatively easy to move. I’ve also moved work locations a few times and the monitor was small enough to easily pop in my carry on suitcase.

    45. Ultrawiiidddeee*

      Hi! I went from three 24″ monitors (landscape orientation) to one 49″ ultrawide monitor and it has been amazing to work from the ultrawide. I have both a PC and Mac hooked up to the single monitor and can either display both systems simultaneously or easily flip between them depending on the work.

      The only downside to the single monitor is that the split is done down the center line of the monitor and you’re usually looking left or right vs straight on like the triple monitor setup so it’s not exactly ergonomic. Also, it is a gaming monitor, so I had to update the graphics card on the PC to use the full resolution.

      I’m a data analyst, so I’m constantly switching between spreadsheets, coding, and QA windows.

    46. 653-CXK*

      I use my TV set and hook it up via an HDMI cable to my laptop. The laptop screen is for websites and PDFs and the TV set is used for spreadsheets and emails.

  3. Cat Tree*

    I’m on an interview panel for an entry level position, and I only have experience interviewing for more senior roles. So I’m open to advice on questions to ask. For background, I won’t be the hiring manager but I used to work in this role and I’m the SME for several parts of it so I will provide occasional mentoring to the person we hire.

    From reading AAM I know to think about the skills that are important to the role and ask questions to determine those things. Here’s what I have so far:

    -We need someone with a collaborative approach to group decisions. Each project has stakeholders from several departments with different perspectives. We have a consensus culture and it is rare for someone to “pull rank”. I have seen some people get too invested in “winning” at a disagreement and that attitude is just not productive. We need someone who can present their own point of view clearly, but also be willing to change their mind when warranted.
    -We need someone who can deal with changing priorities. We are 24/7 manufacturing and batches don’t always get released in the same order they are made (different markets and demands). We need someone who can adapt to changes. At this level we don’t expect the person to decide how to prioritize, but only to recognize when they need to escalate to their manager. We want to avoid people who either don’t recognize their own inability to complete everything, or are too embarrassed to ask for help and will let things go unfinished for too long.

    My two requests for advice:
    1. What are some good behavioral interview questions to get at those qualities I’m looking for? (I have some ideas but I’m open to suggestions.)
    2. Are there things I should be looking for specifically for entry level candidates? Things that I take for granted with experienced colleagues that a newer person might not have yet?

    1. EngGirl*

      I always try to keep my questions open endedish. Otherwise I feel like I’m driving them to the answer they know I want. So instead of “how are you in a fast paced environment” I go “What is your ideal work environment in terms of pacing? So you like to have many tasks to focus on at once or do you prefer to focus on one thing until it’s complete?”

      For an entry level person I’m just looking for someone teachable.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Thanks. I didn’t mention in my initial comment, but we only do behavioral interview questions. Being teachable or willing to learn is definitely important so I will try to focus on that. I’m trying to think of a way to ask that that doesn’t sound antagonistic.

        1. hamsterpants*

          I interview people where we need similar qualities. I like “Tell me about a time where you had to change your approach to solving a problem” and “In addition to (or instead of) asking your manager, how would you go about figuring out how to solve a problem you hadn’t encountered before?” And “tell me about a time where you and a team-mate disagreed about how to approach a problem.”

      2. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. Unless I really need someone who knows a llama from an alpaca from day 1, I need someone trainable. I’ve asked how they handled a challenge, or how they showed flexibility, or to tell us about something they are proud of – that last one can get interesting and sometimes bleeds into how they meet a challenge. We also need someone to take a direction and roll with it, but also not be afraid to ask for help. Don’t spin wheels for a week because you couldn’t track down SME#1.

        I also look for whether or not they’ve actually done research or if they’re just spitballing with their resumes. If someone clearly doesn’t have an interest in our industry, will they stay long? On the other hand, if someone who may not have industry experience has looked at our website and really picked up on a few things, I am more willing to give them a chance.

        1. pcake*

          Momma Bear, I agree with this 1000%

          “I also look for whether or not they’ve actually done research or if they’re just spitballing with their resumes. If someone clearly doesn’t have an interest in our industry, will they stay long? On the other hand, if someone who may not have industry experience has looked at our website and really picked up on a few things, I am more willing to give them a chance.”

    2. DigitalEmployee*

      I’ve always asked things like “how would you navigate a situation where you need a critical piece of information but the person you would get it from is completely unavailable and the deadline is two hours away?”

      It can give good insight into their thought process, find out if they will escalate, and if they’re aware that there are probably procedures in place for instances like that. It can be tailored to the role as well and give you a clearer idea of the kind of mentoring they will need to be successful in the job.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Thanks, this is helpful. I think the broader skill I’m looking for is just knowing when to escalate in general so I will keep that question more generic.

    3. Project Manager here*

      For an entry level position, you should look to teach your hire how to navigate these things. Expecting them to already have experience in any of what you wrote means that you’re no longer looking for an entry level person.

      Any recent college or high school grad (entry level) may have an experience or two with group project, but not everyone would even have that. It sounds like you’re looking for someone with some experience, maybe 3-5 years, and are trying to push that down to entry level.

      1. Cat Tree*

        So just for context, we are filling multiple positions and some of them are above entry level but still more junior than I’m used to interviewing for. Thanks for helping me to realize that I need to approach them differently. We still want the same traits, but for the true entry level positions it’s more important that they have the willingness and ability to learn these things. I’ll have to think about how to phrase the questions.

        (Also in our industry it is standard for entry level candidates to have several college internships so I still think behavioral interview questions are relevant.)

        1. Hlao-roo*

          One thing you can do for the just-out-of-college candidates (if it makes sense for your field) is explicitly tell them they can use examples from college clubs, class projects, and internships. If they had to resolve interpersonal conflicts on their club sports team, for example, that is a good sign you will be able to coach them on how to deal with interpersonal conflicts in an office environment.

          Some questions you might want to ask to find the qualities you describe are:
          – tell me about a time something didn’t go your way. what was the situation and how did you respond?
          – tell me about a time you had to make a decision as a group (or within a group). what was the situation and how did the group come to the decision? what was your role in the decision making process? (might not need the final question, but a good prompt if the person responds with all “we” statements)
          – tell me about a time you had to deal with conflicting priorities.
          – tell me about a time when plans changed last-minute. how did you deal with the situation?

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        Yeah, this bugged me too.

        Influencing without authority in a collaborative environment and dealing with rapidly changing priorities in a lean manufacturing environment are not entry level skills.

        1. Cat Tree*

          We have had many entry level employees successfully demonstrate this kind of skill. The point is not for them to change the mind of a director in a different department, but to have an understanding their own work (not say “uhhh I think it should be this way”), be willing to listen to other perspectives instead of doubling down out of pride, and to know when seek input/direction from their manager. These skills are perfectly reasonable for entry level employees and even interns.

          You’re weirdly hostile to my company in a way that is completely unhelpful. I’m not going to change the company, the position, or the expectations. I’m asking for advice on making the most of the interview process. You have made it clear that you Formally Disapprove of the way we do things, so I will ask that you no longer contribute to this conversation. You don’t have to like the position or the company and I don’t have to convince you to like anything. Feel however you want, but if you have no actual answers to my actual questions you are just being rude.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            You keep saying I’m weird and insulting me. Why is that?

            Also, I have answered both your questions; you just didn’t like my answers apparently.

            1. What are some good behavioral interview questions to get at those qualities I’m looking for? (I have some ideas but I’m open to suggestions.)
            “…clearly explain expectations about the decision making processes and ask behavior questions about how the candidate handled situations where they ran into tasks they didn’t know to complete. i.e “Tell me about a time you ran into a task you weren’t trained to complete. How did you handle it? What was the outcome of the task?””
            2. Are there things I should be looking for specifically for entry level candidates? Things that I take for granted with experienced colleagues that a newer person might not have yet?
            “Influencing without authority in a collaborative environment and dealing with rapidly changing priorities in a lean manufacturing environment are not entry level skills.”

          2. Trout 'Waver*

            I’m also giving extreme side-eye to the combination of “I have seen some people get too invested in “winning” at a disagreement and that attitude is just not productive.” and “You have made it clear you Formally Disapprove of the way we do things, so I will ask you to no longer contribute to this conversation.”

        2. Loulou*

          I don’t see why not! Especially the first one, which seems like much more a question of temperament and outlook than experience (not that this skill can’t be honed through experience, of course it can). I’ve seen student workers who are great at articulating their ideas and making a persuasive case while also being willing to compromise, and senior leaders who seem incapable of it.

      3. Manic Pixie Dream Grad*

        Somewhat depresssingly (maybe), experience is often standard for entry-level jobs at many large companies. All of the grads I work with did internships before starting, and most (almost all) of the interns had a part time job and/or volunteering experience.

        Yes, they train you, but you need to prove that you’re worth training beforehand.

        1. Manic Pixie Dream Grad*

          Sorry – this reply was intended for Trout ‘Waver! My kingdom for an edit button.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Keep in mind that hiring is a two-way street, now more than ever. If I interviewed for a job and they told me the primary qualifications were those two, I’d think it was a highly dysfunctional workplace with ineffective management. Management should be facilitating decisions making, but they should either be making decisions or clearly defining roles so that decisions are made by a specific person or process. Consensus culture as you describe it is poor leadership.

      Also, constantly changing priorities is problematic. I’ve worked several places that required constantly changing focus to different types of tasks, and we were always able to built out a simple decision tree for figuring out what to work on that didn’t require playing mother-may-I? with each task.

      Also, be wary of being too reflexive and over-correcting for past hires. It really sounds like you’re angry at past employees and looking specifically to avoid certain types rather actively seeking out the right fit.

      Reading between the lines, it appears you want someone who is subordinate in the decision making processes and will ask for help when they encounter a task they don’t understand. If that’s the case, clearly explain expectations about the decision making processes and ask behavior questions about how the candidate handled situations where they ran into tasks they didn’t know to complete. i.e “Tell me about a time you ran into a task you weren’t trained to complete. How did you handle it? What was the outcome of the task?”

      1. Cat Tree*

        Your comment is weirdly hostile.

        I understand that hiring is a two-way street. You’re reading a lot into my comment, but this is tuff most functional culture I’ve ever worked in. Do you really prefer to work in an authoritarian culture instead of a consensus culture? That’s fine if you do, but I don’t most people want that.

        As for changing priorities, that is the nature of manufacturing in a capitalist system. Plenty of us work well with flexibility. If a candidate is rigid then this isn’t the place for them. And *of course* managers are responsible for prioritization which is why I literally said exactly that in my comment. But it’s still the employee’s responsibility to raise the issue and ask how to prioritize. Some people are too embarrassed to admit that they’re not a superhero so they hide it, and that’s what we want to avoid.

        Our company encourages autonomy over obedience. Many people have thrived in these positions so it’s not like we’re looking for anything unreasonable. You seem to prefer a culture where you can just follow orders, so it’s good for both of us that you are presumably not one of the candidates for these interviews.

        2. Hiring Mgr*

          I think your questions and approach are perfectly fine, and you seem to have a good handle on what you’re looking for.

          The only thing I’d suggest is maybe add some context when you ask about the collaboration/agreeing with the decision part…otherwise it might sound to the candidate that a huge component of their job is going to be internal wrangling/frustration… not everyone will be up for that..

    5. just a thought*

      My friend used to ask this question in her interviews for interns in her accounting firm, but it might work for you as well since you need them to recognize their inability to complete everything:

      “One manager comes in and gives you a project that has to be completed by tomorrow morning that’s a lot of work. An hour late, a second manager comes in and gives you a second project that also needs to be completed by tomorrow. You look at both projects and the work they will take and realize there is no way you can do both the tomorrow morning deadline. How do you handle this situation?”

      Generally, they were looking for some variation of talking to one or both of the managers. The details weren’t important, just that the interviewee knew to speak up and let at least one manager know early.

      They would also get responses like “I would work all night to do as much as I can” or “I would try to work on both and get as far as possible”. These answers were not what they were looking for. They didn’t want interns completing impossible workloads and getting burned out.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Thanks for your insight. We only ask behavioral interview questions but I think I can modify those hypotheticals into that format.

      2. Anon attorney*

        I agree that this is a really useful question. Some junior candidates will give an answer that boils down to “I would just work harder” and in my experience, that translates into an inability to renegotiate competing priorities but also a mindset where the person doesn’t feel they can exercise any agency over their own workload, which sometimes works in a hierarchical organization but isn’t conducive to roles which require some initiative and self management.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        That’s a really good question. The answer would definitely suss out someone who was afraid to say something.

    6. Anna Badger*

      for your first bullet point I really like “think of a time when you disagreed with a decision that was made – what did you do next?”

      I’m looking for a combination of:

      – understanding that the decision maker may have other priorities and other information not available to the candidate

      – the candidate doing their due diligence to make sure that the decision maker had all the information the candidate had

      – if the decision was upheld, the candidate then getting behind it and working to make it a success (where appropriate, so not if it was a decision to do something awful)

      1. Cat Tree*

        Thanks, this is along the lines I was thinking of. Those are all great things to look for in the answer.

    7. Gnome*

      Since this is entry level and you want characteristics more than certain learned skills… Do tests for them! For instance, I have seen interviews where a team was there to offer help/advice guidance and they had to answer a “how should we approach this” kind of question. I think they were told that the point wasn’t the answer, but how they got there. Using something similar, you could see, does the candidate ask for opinions? Sit back passively, etc. Also, you could have people on the team assigned roles (don’t tell the candidate).. like Negative Ned, who doesn’t think anything will work or I-dunno Ingrid who is non-committal, or whatever makes sense to see how they handle it. Do they work to form consensus? Try to address Ned’s concerns? Etc.

      I say this because I know a guy who thinks he is the epitome of collaborative behavior… And he is probably the worst collaborator I’ve ever met. But he knows how to talk about it, so it only shows up when working with him! Sort of like management that says they are hands off but actually micromanage.

    9. TechGirlSupervisor*

      I manage software development and we have to constantly change tasks to fix bugs quickly. Or incorporate customer feedback into a feature.

      Here’s a question I used just recently:

      “Tell me about a time when you realized you had to change work priorities quickly and how did you handle that situation?”

  4. Insert Clever Name Here*

    This came up on the post yesterday about being a working mom with kids and several people were unaware, so: You can activate autoplay in Disney plus! If the profile is set as Kids, the default is off but you can toggle it on. On the page where you select which profile you’re watching, click “edit profile” at the bottom, then select the one you want to edit — “Autoplay” is the second or third option down.

    Go forth and enjoy not having to click “next episode” every 8 minutes for Bluey while you’re on a conference call!

      1. PostalMixup*

        I know for certain that Tumble Leaf will play on its own for several episodes, so there must be a way, at least on Fire TV!

      2. NotRealAnonForThis*

        I know that Netflix on my Kindle tablet does a fairly quick autoplay to the next episode, at least on a particular favorite crime procedural. That’s for me, not my kids!

  5. TV Researcher*

    I got a job!

    After over a year of unemployment (outside of some freelance work), I got a full-time, full-benefits job!

    And just in time to, because next month, my CoBRA benefits flip and I’ll be paying the majority of the bill, with my former company paying the minority portion.

    Best part, it’s about a 40% increase over the job that laid me off. Sorry, still bitter, former company laid me off while I was still in active cancer treatments – which is just bad form for a multi-billion dollar company.

    Only negative is that when the office reopens at the end of February, it will be a hotdesking office.

    Still, I have a job!

    15. Fact & Fiction*

      From someone who went through 10 months of Covid-related unemployment last year (being laid off from a new job just a few months after they recruited me from a job where I was happy in a stable job for several years) and who is still recovering from a traumatic injury I suffered in June, congratulations! I’m sorry your previous company did that, and I understand about the bitterness because I feel some myself toward the company that laid me off. I finally ended up finding a new job that lasts until at least late next year, and it was a huge relief.
      Hope your new job is fantastic and that the hotdesking doesn’t suck TOO much!

    16. StellaBella*

      I am so glad for you, well done! Keep safe. When you go back, bring wipes, distance if possible, maskup, etc. Also, am so sorry they laid you off in the middle of your cancer treatments. they suck.

    18. Kewlm0m*

      Congratulations on the new job and the pay increase – awesome! And I hope you are recuperating well and on the road to recovery after your medical treatments.

  6. Junior Dev*

    Aam question

    After 5 years in the software industry I have burned out, and just took a landscaping job at an amusement park. The company was small enough not to be affected by the vaccine mandate when it was in effect and they don’t seem to have any internal policies that are above what the state mandates (must wear masks around customers and indoors when other people are around). I am thinking about how to keep myself safe from COVID — I’m fully vaccinated and had my booster shot as soon as they were available, but I really would like to minimize exposure too, and I know the guy who interviewed me is unvaccinated since he told me. I’m sure at least some of my coworkers will be too.

    One thought I had is that I should probably eat and drink outside or in my car during breaks/lunch. But I am worried about not getting to know my coworkers/being seen as aloof. I figure since I will probably be working outside with other people I can have conversations with them, though I don’t want to be annoying or distract from the work either.

    I’m managing a lot here in terms of transitioning fields, possibly being seen as aloof/pretentious due to my previous job, and trying to not get COVID. I suppose it’s possible my interviewer was just especially bad about taking COVID seriously and the other people I’d be working with will be more understanding.

    As for why I chose to take this job and not one that takes the pandemic more seriously, i figure it’s less risky since most of the work is outside and it’s not directly customer-facing.

    People who’ve been working jobs similar to this during the pandemic: what practical advice do you have for setting boundaries with coworkers to keep safe? And any advice for not coming off as rude while doing so? (While I obviously would like to accomplish both, I’m gonna put my safety first if it comes down to it.)

    1. Observer*

      In decent weather, people might be eating outside anyway.

      It’s OK to chat with people while you are working, as long as you’re not getting into the kind of stuff that really would be distracting. I mean if you are clipping hedges and talking about the latest ~~favorite sitcom episode~~ or commenting about how the weather has affected your commute, that friendly enough and shouldn’t be a huge distraction for most people.

    2. River Otter*

      Socially, I tell people matter-of-factly that I am not doing anything indoors and ask about getting together for something outdoors. Could you do a variation of this for lunches? Something like, “ I am being cautious and avoiding doing anything indoors. How about moving lunch outdoors?” Of course, that assumes it is nice enough outdoors to eat lunch, which eventually it will be.

      1. Cold Fish*

        I find it best not to bring up “I am being cautious…” as that tends to make people defensive. Just invite them to eat lunch outside (if weather cooperates). Don’t point out you are wearing a mask indoors, just wear the mask. There are a lot of people that are just tired of the discussion. If you don’t bring it up, they won’t bring it up.

    3. anonymous73*

      I’ve learned that those that will judge you for being more cautious than they are will judge you no matter what you do. Do what makes you comfortable and stop worrying about what others are thinking. If someone is questioning your preferences, be honest. If they can’t accept that, it’s on them. I realize you want to have a comfortable working environment, but nothing you do or say will make a difference to hard core anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers.

      1. Junior Dev*

        That’s true. I think I’m nervous about being judged in a “oooh, you think you’re too good to eat with us” way. But ultimately that’s their problem if it happens.

        1. River Otter*

          It’s all in how you say it. You can’t completely control another person‘s reaction, but you can do things that make it less likely that someone will see an implied criticism. If you make a caution a thing that you are doing because it’s about you, that has much less of a subtext of “unlike you, you reckless barbarian.”

        2. DJ Abbott*

          When I was wearing a mask and my coworkers weren’t, I just said I’m cautious and have respiratory allergies so I wanted to protect myself from variants.
          Then the delta variant started and management made everyone wear masks.

    4. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I know I’m not answering your question but this is so cool, Junior Dev! I once left teaching and became a dishwasher and then line cook and then shuttle driver and then went to grad school. I’m so interested in your experience. Do you enjoy your own landscaping or will this be completely new to you?

      1. Junior Dev*

        I’ve done a little landscaping for family members and for volunteer projects but otherwise it’s totally new.

        I got fired in October 2021, I had gotten extremely burned out and also depressed from being alone at home all the time. This is my first job since that happened, although I was volunteering twice a week and keeping active in other ways. I’m pretty nervous about going back to work at all, but I think this job will be nice.

        What did you go to grad school for? What are you doing now, and do you like it?

    5. Quinalla*

      I do think advice to just do your thing and if someone asks, have an answer ready – tailored to your personal situation. I know when vaccines were all good for adults and mask indoors was not as much of a thing for a while there, I was still wearing a mask. If people asked, I told them that I was still masking because my kids couldn’t get vaccinated yet and one of my kids is high risk as well for COVID. I never had anyone say a single thing negative about it, even those who I knew were on a very different part of the spectrum of all the COVID risk stuff than me. People understood why I would do that, even if they wouldn’t. I know others have had good luck with “I have a family member who is high risk, so I always mask indoors.”

      I think if you try to be as matter-of-fact as possible, it will go as well as it can. You can’t control people’s reactions, but you can encourage them to be civil by starting out being matter-of-fact and civil yourself.

      1. Junior Dev*

        I guess I can say that my roommate (who I’m currently working on getting a house with) has a chronic illness and is especially worried about COVID. But I hopefully won’t have to even get that far.

        I did have that feeling of masks not being needed inside over the summer when I’d recently been vaccinated and we weren’t hearing about variants yet. I guess if other people are just tired of being cautious that’s their right, within reason. I’m choosing to get a job outside the house even though I know it means increased exposure.

        1. bunniferous*

          If you mention your protecting someone else that should take care of things. I am more pro mask than the majority of my friends but when I point out I have a husband with health issues they tend to not press the point.

    6. Elaner*

      For me, I’d say look into what you can control on your person. KN95s are a really good option for under the radar upgrading your protection, because you can get all the different colors that don’t stand out the same way an N95 with head straps could. And if you are okay going with an N95, the 3M 9105 model seems to have the best price for those. Check out the wirecutter article on how to reuse and it should help.

      I focus on masking, because even if you don’t eat with your coworkers, you can still come over to their table once you’re done and remasked.

    7. Just done*

      You can catch covid from vaccinated people, too.

      I did. And so did a vast majority of my family and friends.
      So, being around vaccinated is really no different from being around the unvaccinated.
      How do I know? We all have only been around each other and we’re ALL vaccinated.

      Wash your hands, eat healthy, get good sleep is my best advice. There’s literally really nothing you can do to prevent infection 100%.

      1. bratschegirl*

        Yes, vaccinated people can acquire and spread COVID, although boosted folks are the least likely, but unvaccinated people are far more likely to do both. It’s absolutely not supported by any current evidence to say “being around unvaccinated is no different.”

  7. EngGirl*

    So I’m pretty sure I’m going to get an earful from upper management next week about failures in another site that I have no control over.

    Anyone have a good way to respond to someone taking you across the coals for (fairly massive) issues that you have no real oversight over and that you don’t want oversight over? Or just tips on how not to cry when getting torn a new one over it? Or waterproof mascara recommendations?

    1. geek5508*

      how much capital do you have? If a lot, stand up for yourself and point out that you DID NOT have oversight of the other site.

      If not, grin and bear it, unfortunately.

      1. Artemesia*

        Probably this. I would be tempted to ask precisely what they would like me to do if this issue arrises again.

        1. EngGirl*

          Yeah, I’m trying to think of a polite way to ask that without having to take on too much additional responsibility as I’m already super overloaded.

    2. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

      Is there anything you can do ahead of time to prepare a story? Why things went wrong, what could be done to prevent it in the future? It always helps me to have talking points. Or, can you pull in the people who do have oversight and have them explain?

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      How about, “I’m disappointed about that too. What can we do going forward to prevent it from happening again?” Or, “what would you have done differently?”
      Tone is important so they don’t misinterpret it as sarcasm.
      Good luck, it stinks to be the scapegoat for something you have no control over!

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Who is in control of that site? I’d refer them to that person for every statement.
      “Why did the sprockets arrive late?!?!?”
      “Have you spoken to Pat? Pat oversees that division.”
      “I thought you were in charge of everything!”
      “You are mistaken. I can’t answer any questions about Pat’s division because I am not a part of that team. I’d suggest you call Pat and ask these questions.”

      1. EngGirl*

        I unfortunately think the person who oversees that division has volunteered me to take on this situation. Unfortunately as that person is above me organizationally and in my direct chain of command I’m probably not getting out of it. I’m just frustrated with the fact that I’m going to have to answer for something I wasn’t in control of at the time and be expected to fix it lol. It’s tricky because it’s going to broaden the scope of my work beyond what I signed on to, but they can make my job description whatever they want.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          Practice this (or something like it): “I agree that there are problems in Peoria, but Peoria has always been outside of my scope of responsibilities. If the plan is changing and I will now be responsible for Peoria, in addition to [CURRENT RESPONSIBILITIES], I will need [ADDITIONAL STAFF, ADDITIONAL MONEY, NEW TITLE– EVERYTHING YOU WILL NEED].

        2. FedUpMarketer*

          Some good advice! In response to you already being overloaded I’d also suggest Alison’s classic – I can take on this site, but it will mean that projects A and B will be put on pause, how do you want to handle coverage for that? And standing firm with what is/isn’t possible.

          And for the crying thing, deep breaths and try to detach. I cry when frustrated as well. If you catch it early enough ask to step out for a minute. Good luck!

    5. Jean*

      Stand your ground and don’t accept blame for what sounds like management’s own failure. “Gosh, I sure wish I could have helped with that but it’s not in my purview. This really sounds like an issue for the person who holds authority over that site.”

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      3 thoughts. Of course if you have irrational upper management who just want to punish someone to make themselves feel better, the first 2 probably won’t be much use.

      1) Why can’t you push back? “Site X has never been my responsibility, I can’t tell those people what to do, and I don’t have any control over their equipment. Why are you talking to me about this instead of Fergus?”

      2) Do you have any documentation? “I’m not surprised that Site X went offline. I told Fergus that the llama grooming sprockets were overdue for replacement last September; I even CC’ed you on it.”

      3) (I’m assuming you’re an engineer from your handle — secret handshake). This psychological tip has worked for me. Upper management yelling at you is no different from a machine making a loud noise as it fails. Interesting data, but it didn’t fail *at* you. It just failed. Management is yelling – they aren’t yelling at you, they are yelling because that’s the only thing they know how to do. If you look at the person across the table as just a bundle of parts that’s behaving in a weird way, instead of as a person, then it all gets much easier to separate out the facts from the emotions.

      It’s a little like the advice for what to do when you’re in an uncomfortable social situation – run a David Attenborough TV narrative in your head. “Here we see the MBA in its native habitat. The loud tie and large fountain pen are used as protective camouflage. Now it’s approaching a group of entry-level accountants and will perform a dominance dance.”

      1. Green Beans*

        Yes for ,(2) – “I flagged this issue by X and Y. Is there another process I should use to report issues?”

      3. Haha Lala*

        This! Especially #3, that’s so accurate for engineers! (I say as a fellow engineer).

        And plan on having a good self care/reward night that evening. I’m thinking ice cream, chocolate, wine, trashy movies or whatever sort of reward you can think about to get you through the unpleasantness.

      4. Suprisingly ADHD*

        Oh man, that third point is brilliant! “it didn’t fail *at* me” is great advice on its own, but I never thought to apply it to someone yelling inappropriately. I’m definitely gonna start thinking that way.

    7. DigitalEmployee*

      This is so tmi but for the not crying thing, focus on clenching your butt/anus. I’ve had it recommended to me and I’ve found that it works.

      And second, have a suggestion for what to do next time (like appoint someone on-site to lead the project and if you have a name tell them who you would pick, offer to mentor that person if they specifically want your skill set, suggest a new procedure to build in safeguards and clearly list who it should be escalated to.)

      I avoid focusing on the failure because it keeps them stuck in the past. If you can bring them into the planning stage for making sure it’s handled better next time, it will keep the conversation moving forward and you will be able to limit the negative outpouring that some managers think is appropriate (I don’t think it is at all).

    8. River Otter*

      I think the question is what they see your role as. You might see your role differently, but if they see you as having a particular role at this other site, you have to address that. If you take accountability for the things that are your role, it gives you a better position to ask how they would like you to handle the things that you do not believe are your role. And this might end up being a very clear laying out of what your role actually is even though you don’t believe it to be so and don’t want it to be so. Sometimes in engineering, you just get responsibility and you have to figure out how to build your influence to carry out that responsibility.

      1. EngGirl*

        Yeah I think this is where there’s going to be a disconnect. I’ve always understood my role as X with some input into Y but no control, authority, or accountability. This seems like they’re going for my role is X and Y, still with no real control, some limited authority, and way more accountability than I’m comfortable with given my other limitations.

        1. JelloStapler*

          So accountability with no control and barely authority? I would find a way to ask how you can be accountable for something that you cannot impact or change. Or ask for it – “in order for me to effectively manage this part of my role, I need X amount of control. If I cannot have that, please let me know how to alert the person that does to intervene where I cannot”.

    9. Lora*

      It sort of doesn’t matter what you say to an unreasonable person. You could do your best Chicken Dance / Macarena, doesn’t matter, unreasonable people gonna unreasonable. So bear in mind there’s not a right way to deal with unreasonable people who are disinterested in solving the problem.

      I have a reputation for being an ice cold b1tch, on account of when men in male-dominated fields want to use me as their therapist or verbal punching bag, I am not nice in return. Weird. But I tend to say things like, “that sounds awful, what do you think you’ll do about it,” “did you want to borrow my 8D Kaizen root cause analysis template?” or “hmm, sounds like you and (person actually in charge) need to have a long talk.”

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Thanks Lora! As a woman who is a magnet for men who are looking for a babysitter, I’m going to use some of these! :)

    10. HR Exec Popping In*

      Spend some time thinking about why the failure happened and then share that and explain what you will need from them to help ensure this won’t happen again. For example…

      It appears that the XYZ system went down and local managers did not realize the issue until after we lost 2k teapots due to quality defects. I understand that this is not acceptable. To ensure something like this doesn’t happen again I need to bring in someone to diagnose the issue with the XYZ system and put new protocols in place for local managers. To do this, I will need $50k for the diagnostic and your support to ensure the new protocols are followed.

    11. anonymous73*

      You say you have no control over the site. Does this also mean the site is not your responsibility at all? Do you have duties relating to that site?

      If the site is not in any way your responsibility, I would ask questions. “Who’s in charge of that site?” “What would you suggest I do in the future as I have no authority over that site?” Don’t allow them to blame you if there’s nothing you could have done to prevent the issues.

      If there were things you missed or didn’t report, take responsibility for those things and ask how to better handle them in the future.

      As for the crying thing, I can’t help you. I don’t cry for stuff like that, but do cry when I am super pissed. Then I get more pissed at myself for crying, so endless cycle. Good luck.

      1. EngGirl*

        Lol I get the pissed off crying too! I’m not normally an emotional crier either, I’m just kind of drained from the situation and I’m definitely a frustrated crier especially if I’m being yelled at for something I didn’t do.

        To answer your question I have input into the sit me but no oversight. So let’s say that I am responsible for telling the site how to mix the paints to paint teapots and defining the color of the teapots. Then the site sends me a complete teapot and approve it. I’m also partially responsible for training the other color specialists at the site for how to evaluate the paint mixers, but I’m not responsible for making sure they’re performing those evaluations or in anyway for the paint mixers or painters at that or any other site. The paint mixers have gone off the book and changed the ways the paints get mixed, but the completed teapots are coming out the right color and the other color specialists did nothing to correct the issue. Now I’m being asked why this happened. It hasn’t caused a deliverable issue but a systemic one.

        1. anonymous73*

          Okay so it sounds like you have no way of knowing if the process of something has changed, because the end product that comes to you is correct. It’s just the way they got to that end product is not correct.

          Even though it’s not part of your job, maybe go in armed with solutions to make sure the process is followed – sign offs, checkpoints, etc. – or if you don’t know who’s responsible for those things, go in with a general plan of how to make it work. Then you could know if the process wasn’t followed and report it if needed. I would also put the responsibility on them to answer their own questions. Instead of just sitting there and taking the blame, ask them how they expect you to know there’s a problem with the process if the end product comes to you with no issues.

        2. Mockingjay*

          Ah, it’s a process issue. They’re not following the process. So you did what you were supposed to, how and when you were supposed to, but they did not. If you flagged that at any point, refer back. “I trained the paint mixers in our process as you requested, but daily oversight of their work is their manager’s purview. The SOP lays out everything they need; I made sure each painter got a copy during training. By happenstance I caught some errors in paint mixing early, but that was just luck. If they follow the SOP, it shouldn’t happen again. Maybe add a checklist or a QC step to the SOP?”

          Use a calm, slightly perplexed tone. You want to convey, of course it’s a team problem, how shall we solve it? without accepting any blame whatsoever.

          1. Hillary*

            OP, are you a six sigma or lean shop? This is a great opportunity for a root cause countermeasure – offering to lead it could deflect the frustration from the leader.

        3. Mimi*

          For this specific situation, I might try an angle of, “This issue happened because I have no visibility into the paint mixing process to ensure that my recommendations are followed. Who will be in charge of monitoring paint compliance in future and reporting to [ideally someone who isn’t me] if something similar happens again?”

          1. River Otter*

            This is a good approach. I would change it a little bit because there is an assumption that management is trying to blame you. I would take more of an approach like,
            “Here is the training for the paint mixers, and here is the training for the evaluation of the paint mixers. I looked into how the site ensures that the processes are being followed, end it seems like there is a gap there which we could close up to prevent this from becoming an issue that would affect deliveries.”
            And of course, you would have gone and having done some homework. You are not accepting blame and you are not anticipating blame with an approach like this. You are problem-solving because you have been identified to solve the problem. Try to move out of the mindset that you were going in to get reamed. Maybe you will be reamed and maybe you won’t be reamed. Either way, dwelling on that is not helpful. What is helpful is thinking about how you are going to move forward in the future.
            Your management gets to tell you that you have responsibility and accountability in this area even if you would rather not have it. So if you don’t have official authority, look for ways to build your influence so that you have unofficial authority.
            Thank you for reminding me of all the things I hate about production environments. Bleh.

    12. Clearlier*

      Give them a minute to vent then shift into clarification and solution mode. It sounds like there’s some ambiguity about responsibility. That needs to be removed even if you don’t like the answer.

      Of course this assumes a good manager. If that’s not the case job hunt over he weekend and daysream about your potential new job while you get (hopefully metaphorically) yelled at.

    13. RagingADHD*

      I have had some success in situations like this by positioning myself as being on the same “side” as the person who is upset. The unspoken presumption is that they can’t possibly be mad at me or taking me to task, because it has nothing to do with me. So we are upset together about the issues that are going on over there.

      It’s the more-formal equivalent of “I know, right? Can you believe what Team X did? Terrible. How are we going to address it with them?”

      This is smarmy and disingenuous when you really are responsible for the problem. But when you aren’t, it is a reasonable way of steering the conversation back toward reality.

    14. Purple Cat*

      Sounds like there are 2 different issues to parse out:
      1- you feel like they’re going to blame YOU for this issue that happened. Seems like that’s totally not the case and you should be able to point out that X was in charge so they can address the issues.

      2 – the other issue is that it sounds like they might want you to be responsible for this work going forward. You’re going to have to stand firm on why your limited authority means you won’t be able to deliver the results they’re looking for and if they want to give you more authority then they have to discuss your title and compensation accordingly.

      And I wish there was any part of me that could successfully do #2, but I’m rooting for you.
      I love the other advise of thinking of them as a broken machine and clenching those butt cheeks.

      Keep us posted!

    15. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Everyone else has addressed the other questions and tips, so I’ll just share my experience that ELF waterproof mascara is in fact, quite waterproof. In case you need backup for those tips. ;)

      Seriously, if you’re going to get stuck with the oversight of it, make it clear you’re trying to get a picture of WHAT went wrong, what they would have approached differently, and what the expectations are if you ARE going to get stuck with the oversight moving forward. Ask for concrete measureable things.

    16. RecoveringSWO*

      It’s not always possible, but you can reach out to someone with some level of authority of that site and essentially say, “I forsee getting chewed out because of [x problems at site]. Do you have any mitigating circumstances, solutions you’re putting in place, etc that I can tell them about in the meeting? That way I can try to avoid your site feeling similar pain?” Then, during the meeting you continuously refer to whoever you spoke to as both having the authority that you don’t have/want and you speak positively about their team working despite [specific obstacle] and trying to implement some solution to avoid repeated issues.

      The point you’re trying to get across is that you see the issue and you took the initiative to bring it up to the person with authority (*who is not you*) to try and get your items through their backlog. Like others said, this helps establish the us v. them line. But, by staying positive about whoever you’ve named, you maintain the working relationship and are less likely to get tasked with anything under their purview. Also, the person you talked to can be prepared to respond better to any follow-on questions that mgmt may ask him/her after your meeting (another point for them having authority and not you). The positivity is a line to toll though–you don’t want to argue on behalf of the team and if mgmt gets pissed at them anyways, that’s not your fault. I just find that management is much more likely to focus on what I could have to better when I present it as, “x site is horrible and the reason why we tanked this deadline/performance/whatever.”

    17. Gnome*

      Maybe disarm them when they start. Like “Whoa! I can see you are concerned/upset about the state of things at Area 51. I am too! It’s really not good that Fergus did Really Bad Thing and the Area is struggling. I know I don’t have any authority over them, but it reflects badly on us here at Area 50. What can we here in Area 50 do to set things straight?”

      Obviously, this won’t work with some folks, but sometimes by siding with them and then verbally making yourself a group with them (us, we type language) AND offering to help, you can disarm a person looking to take it out on another… Especially of you end with a question…makes them think and thinking and emoting aren’t things people generally can do simultaneously.

      Alternatively, go to them first and vent your spleen about Area 51 and your concern for it’s impact on you and what are they doing about it because you don’t have oversight?

      Good luck!

    18. AnotherEngGirl*

      I’ve been in that situation, it wasn’t pretty. Are you sure that you will be blamed and held accountable, and it won’t just be a discussion about plans (and maybe new responsibilities) going forward? If you have seen unreasonable behavior in the past that makes you pretty sure it’s the former, get out as soon as you can. It won’t get better. Engineers are in high demand, always, don’t let them damage your self worth.

  8. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

    I’ve been at my company for 9 years, current team for 6. I’ve been a technical individual contributor and team lead on a very challenging product, and I’m burnt out. After interviewing and considering some outside opportunities (none of which were a good fit), I reached out to my manager and asked him to help me because I’m getting physically sick from the stress. Like, crying at minor inconveniences, panic attacks when managers reach out to me about status, not sleeping because I’m worried about what’ll be waiting for me when I log on. My manager was great, found me a new role in our department but on a different product.

    Problem is, there’s nobody to backfill for me in my old role. It’s been 2 months and I’ve been working my new job 30% of my time and my old job 70% of my time, though it should be closer to 75% new, 25% old. I’m exempt and working lots of unpaid OT, which has always been a thing but on the order of 1-3 hours a week, but I’m at 10+. There’s also been comments that they really need 2 people to come in because my junior team member is also moving as part of early career development assignments. I can’t just forget my old role because there are some regulatory issues that I’m making sure don’t get lost, but more drop in tasks keep popping up and I can’t keep this up without losing my mind.

    A friend knows how I’ve been struggling and is encouraging me to apply to his company in a completely unrelated industry. Is it completely out of line for me to look again, given that my manager did all the right things but they just can’t find someone else that can pick up my old responsibilities? The company has treated me well, and I have a great reputation for doing good work, but we’re chronically understaffed and underfunded. That being said, I’m afraid to burn bridges at the only company I’ve ever worked for.

    1. Jessi*

      But your manager hasn’t really done the right thing. S/he’s paid lip service too it, but you are still majority doing your old role and if you are doing 10+ hours overtime hasn’t helped at all with burn out. You can try going back and saying I can’t keep doing 50+ hour weeks, and ask for help to prioritise 40 hours of work, but at this point I think you would be better to make a clean break of it

    2. Green Beans*

      Go look! They may be nice but they’re taking advantage of you.

      Also, stop working overtime. Flag the issues, state that you’re backing down to the agreed-upon amount of work (35% of 40 hours/week) and then let them not get done. They’re not backfilling because there’s no urgency, so let there be urgency. It is no longer your problem if the other 65% of work doesn’t get done.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Emphatically agree to stop working OT, immediately. With all your overwork, you are solving the understaffing problem, so, as Green Beans said, there’s no urgency to hire. Make the company feel pain.

        Use all that free time to REST, JOB SEARCH, and DO ANYTHING ELSE BUT WORK.

    3. Observer*

      A friend knows how I’ve been struggling and is encouraging me to apply to his company in a completely unrelated industry. Is it completely out of line for me to look again, given that my manager did all the right things but they just can’t find someone else that can pick up my old responsibilities?

      Well, I would argue that they did NOT “do all of the right things” because part of that list is actually RELEASING you from the job. Instead, you’re still stuck with it and working EVEN MORE HOURS.

      Sorry, as this point they need to act as though you are no longer at the company. I mean, what will they do if you actually DO leave.

      Now, even if the ACTUALLY had done ALL of the right things, you would still be ok to look. If your health is being affected, it’s being affected, and you don’t have any obligation to hurt your health because your boss made a good faith effort to address the problem.

      If leaving under these circumstances burns a bridge, then the sooner you get out of there, the better for your long term career prospects.

      I’d have ONE more conversation with your boss. Point out that things are now WORSE than they were and you simply need to stop working more than 13 hours a week on old job. If they push back or just ignore what you’ve said, absolutely leave.

      1. Mimi*

        Yeah, I would draw a clear line of, “This situation is not resolved until someone else is in charge of making sure that we’re compliant with the llama audits. Right now I’m the only person preventing llama compliance from falling into an abyss, and you can either figure out how to get it off my plate now, or you can figure out how to put it on someone else’s plate after I’ve left.”

        Normally I don’t use threatening to leave as leverage, but sometimes when one’s manager is trying to be responsive and things still aren’t moving fast enough, it can get the job done. (I once used it to good effect with “You can hire another junior person to support this team, or you can hire three junior people to backfill when I quit.”)

    4. Colette*

      Can you let any of it drop? (I.e. restrict yourself to 40 hours per week, and let the least critical stuff fail)? Depending on your relationship with your manager you can also be upfront that you need to let some stuff go.

      But to answer the question you ask, there’s nothign wrong with looking elsewhere. What you’re doing is not sustainable.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      It is never out of line to look.
      You only owe your employer the level of work and respect that they give you.

      “we’re chronically understaffed and underfunded” = your current employer is not a good place to work. They can’t get new people because they won’t pay new people.

      I think you should apply to the new place. I also think that deep down, you know all this, and you’re just looking for external people to endorse the decision you’ve already made so that you have less Feelings about it. Long term, you’ll be a happier person and better employee if you let go some of those feelings. Work is secondary, you and your satisfaction are the important things in your life.

    6. I was told there would be llamas*

      I would say your manager didn’t do “all the right things.” It’s been 2 months, if you’re still doing the work, there’s no real incentive for the manager to replace you. How much of your old job is the manager doing? And how much overtime is the manager doing?

    7. Artemesia*

      It is never wrong to take care of yourself. You asked for help and instead got an increased workload and no one to cover the previous role. It is never wrong to make decisions that benefit you. This new job may not be a good choice — you have to carefully consider if it is really what you want to do, but you should definitely be looking for another position given the failure of the current management to look out for you. It is never wrong to take care of yourself.

    8. CatCat*

      Is it completely out of line for me to look again

      NOPE. And you have nothing to lose, but something to gain by looking. The company is not treating you well if they have kept you working two jobs for months now.

      I think you could have a conversation with your boss that the current situation is not sustainable. You appreciate that they helped you find new role in the company, but that is not panning out because you’re effectively not able to dedicate your work time 100% to that new role. In fact, the situation is worse than before the transition because now you have to do the work for two roles resulting in an unsustainable level of overtime every week. And ask, “Given that the current situation is unsustainable, what is the solution going forward?”

      But be looking in case they have no solution or any proposed solution turns out to be lip service. Again, there’s nothing really to lose. Moving on from a job is normal and should not burn a bridge, especially if they are fully aware that the current job is not working out. (Though I have been amazed in the past when I lay out what the issues are and my manager is shocked, SHOCKED when I give notice. It’s happened a couple of times. Didn’t burn a bridge or anything though.)

    9. Emma2*

      Nope, not out of line at all. Arguably the fact your manager tried to make changes but nothing really changed is additional evidence you did not have previously that your current company may not be the right place for you.
      I think it is really difficult to think through decisions like this when you are burnt out – personally, I find I don’t have the mental capacity to be entirely sensible or logical when I feel that way. Maybe take it one step at a time, apply for the new role – that is not committing to leaving, it is really just getting a sense about whether there really is an opportunity there and whether you might be interested. By the time you go through an interview process, your company will also have had more time to improve your existing work situation. At that point, if you get a job offer, you can make a more informed decision about what you want to do.
      Applying for the job is just a very small step. If you apply, you can change your mind at any point.

    10. Stoppin' by to chat*

      Not backfilling your role is not doing everything they can. I mean, technically your manager may be doing what they can, but your employer as a whole is NOT. If the job is still making your physically ill, then definitely look elsewhere! Also, it’s okay to start letting things from the old job drop. I.e. matter-of-factly to your old manager, sorry I no longer have bandwidth for X, but here’s the info about what I used to do, etc. Good luck!

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        It also doesn’t matter whether the employer is doing everything they can. If the situation doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you. Don’t stick around in a job that’s making you miserable just because you feel bad for your employer. Find a new job that works for you and let them find an employee who’s right for them.

        1. Attractive Nuisance*

          (…and by “right for them,” I mean “right for what they’re willing to offer right now.” That employee may not exist, but that’s not your problem.)

        2. Esmae*

          This. Sometimes, as an employer, you just can’t do what you’d need to do to keep a certain employee. That’s okay!

    11. Librarian of SHIELD*

      First: Go ahead and apply for the job at your friend’s company. Submitting and application doesn’t mean you’re obligated to take the job, and it’s probably a good idea to have a way out if your current job responsibilities don’t let up.

      Second: Have another meeting with your boss. They have *said* all the right things, but they haven’t actually *done* them yet. Be super honest. You went to them because you were becoming physically ill from your stress levels, and the actions they’ve taken so far have not alleviated any of your stress. You need your boss to commit to taking your old job’s responsibilities off your plate now. Not when a replacement is hired, not when the workload lets up. Today. You need to stop working overtime. Today. If your boss can’t commit to reducing your workload, then they can’t do all the right things for you.

      I know it’s hard to give up on a company you feel so strongly connected to. But right now, your body is screaming at you that you can’t keep this up. You have to think of your own health, and if your current company isn’t able to provide you with a healthy environment, it’s not a failure or an act of disloyalty for you to leave.

    12. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

      I really do appreciate all the reality checks here. I probably didn’t phrase “chronically understaffed and underfunded” correctly – I’m compensated well for 40hrs/week but the program I’m supporting (new job is a different management team and structure) is not well funded or staffed for the amount of work that needs to get done, hence the casual OT that’s become my normal working time. And my manager’s hands are very tied, it’s management above him that’s been slow to help find a backfill and why I feel bad. There was one identified, but I realized they were expecting him to keep doing his old job while picking up mine too. Which, that’s a huge red flag to me and I’m proud of him for saying “I cannot do that” before I started onboarding him.

      Resume is getting polished and sent off this weekend!

      1. JelloStapler*

        But you cannot put yourself at running on empty to save your manager and their manager’s asses. That’s their job and they are the ones that will need to be held accountable for not…well, managing… the issue. It may not be until they see the urgency and why they need to backfill. So many orgs try to avoid doing what they need if they think they can manage with what is currently the policy, even if it means an employee is struggling. When it falls on them by your manager saying “I’ve had been asking for X and Y and now we are in a crisis- X and Y need to happen now or A and B will happen”.

    13. Florida Fan 15*

      Question: are you continuing to do your old role because they’re requiring it of you, or because you’re requiring it of you?

      I’ve seen a lot of people over the years who are overworked because they take on what by rights is their manager’s job — ensuring things get done. It’s for the best of reasons, dedication to the work, care for their colleagues, concern for clients. But it’s taking on something that isn’t your responsibility. It’s not your job to be both the worker and the manager.

      If this is the case, stop. You have to let people face the consequences of their choices. Poor management will let you work yourself to death if you don’t put up boundaries. If things get lost, then let them get lost. If they don’t get done, then let them not get done. I know this feels like shirking, but it’s not. It’s self-preservation and it’s healthy. Just because certain things need doing doesn’t mean they must be done BY YOU.

      If you can’t do this, or the problem is the expectations are coming from them, then yes, you should probably look elsewhere. Although 1) you can put up boundaries even if the expectations are theirs and not yours; and 2) you might need to work on your boundaries even if you go somewhere else, because people will take as much as you’re willing to give wherever you are, and learning to say no is a lifesaver.

    14. Koala dreams*

      You need to go back to your manager, explain that you can’t work overtime any more and ask them for help to prioritize. If they won’t help, you need to tell your manager a version of “I’m only going to be able to do A and B, I won’t be able to do C and D any more”.

      Do you have any sick leave? Can you take FLMA leave?

      It’s fine to look for other work. Some people find it easier to start over at a new industry after a health issue like burn out, because the old industry has too many bad memories. So, yes, please look at other industries and choose what’s good for you and your health.

  9. Rayray*

    I’m considering trying to find a new job. Short version is that it’s just not the absolute best fit for me and we’re in a slow season and I’m getting nervous if they’ll have to let anyone go. Also, There’s no room to really grow unless I switch positions entirely. Im also at the top of the pay scale.

    I was thinking about reaching out to an internal recruiter just to inquire about what’s open. I will speak to my manager before I make any moves but I want to tread carefully just in case they do have to lay off someone, I don’t want to be top of the list. What can I say to say I am just curious what they have? I don’t want to sound shady by telling them to not tell my manager.

    1. LaDonna*

      I think it’s fine to ask about positions open just so you can browse (but also can you do this on an online portal vs having to reach out to a recruiter?). You could just say, “I’m curious about what open positions there are here. I’m not ready to apply to anything yet, so I’m not discussing it with my manager unless there was a position open I’d be interested in applying to.”

      But also, if you apply for a position, you will likely need to tell your manager. That’s how it works where I am, if you apply you need to let your current boss know, because the hiring manager will likely reach out to them.

    2. DigitalEmployee*

      Have you looked at the internal openings on the company’s job board? You could start by bringing up a role that is open that aligns with 80% of your skills and interests you. I call them exploratory conversations when asking to talk to a recruiter or hiring manager.

      Reach out to the recruiter and ask them about the role while mentioning your desire to grow with the company and expand your skill set. They may put you in touch with the hiring manager just to discuss the role and answer any of your questions. If it goes well, they could invite you to apply for it.

    3. All Het Up About It*

      There’s also always the “I love X company and would love to grow here professionally. Can I ask about internal openings so I have an idea of what sort of skills I would need when I am ready to move up?”

      But also – I’m curious why there isn’t just an internal (or external) job board you can look at? Yes, I’ve worked places where occasionally someone is hired for a job you didn’t even know existed, but those are usually pretty high up the food chain positions where politics etc. come into play. Entry to mid level openings have either been announced and/ or easily found. If that’s not happening in your company, I’d be curious why not.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Third recommendation for the online portal or job board. If someone asks you about it, feel free to say you are looking for a friend. Easy enough later on to say that friend decided to stay in their old job….Or even say while looking for her you noticed something so perfect you had to throw your hat into the ring for the internal transfer.

  10. ThatGirl*

    I’d like to hear about how “return to office” is going – or isn’t, as the case may be.

    I am in Chicagoland, and the company I work for has been pretty chill. They were planning a ‘return to office’ 3x a week back last September… and then Delta came and it got postponed. And then on Jan. 21 (last Friday) we all got an email saying that since omicron was past its peak (BARELY), they were starting RTO on …. Jan. 31.

    We all knew it was coming sooner or later, and there will be some flexibility for parents and people who have other reasons they might not be able to make it in 3 days a week, but I was astonished at the 10 days’ notice. Seems like they could have given us till, say, Feb 28???

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      My employer (Fortune 100 tech, >100K employees) planned RTO back in Sep too. When Delta hit, they said, ‘never mind’. The only thing they’ve said since was a late Sept “here’s the protocol for getting permission to come in if there’s something absolutely essential for you to do on site, but please don’t come in.” No thing since then. Nada. Silencio. Nuttin.

      If your employer continues RTO, maybe you can ask for just two days? My employer was 3x/week even before the plague, and M / F were extremely quiet on site.

      1. ThatGirl*

        The office has been open for people who *want* to go in since last April, so I’ve actually been going in 2-3 days a week anyway. The actual going in part doesn’t bother me too much; people are pretty good about masks (and we still have a state-wide mandate). But the head of my division has specifically said they want everyone in Mon-Tues-Wed for “collaboration” purposes, so I can’t really pick and choose quieter days.

        1. SarahKay*

          My company is also bringing people at office-only sites back in, I think next week, too (I’m in an office attached to a workshop; we’re still strictly forbidden from returning).
          They’re saying it will be three days per week, and that these should be staggered across teams and days to ensure social distancing is still maintained. Do you have any scope to use this sort of reasoning with your division head (or HR if they’re helpful) to push back on the Mon-Weds requirement?

          1. ThatGirl*

            So, from what I’ve heard, the CEO and head of HR both voted against returning so quickly, but they were outvoted by the rest of the leadership team. I do not know who specifically was pushing so hard for a quick return in the first place. I strongly suspect that if I talked to my line of leadership, or HR, they would tell me to work with my manager if I had concerns about being in the office. And my manager is great! But I don’t have any specific personal concerns – I’m just a little annoyed by the overall tone and rush to bring people back.

            That said, they will be enforcing mask usage and conference rooms/meetings will be spread way out; they’re not totally unaware of safety issues. It’s more just “well, let’s try to get back to a new normal, might as well start now”.

    2. DigitalEmployee*

      Ours isn’t going anywhere. We were supposed to return in April 2020, June 2020, July 2020, September 2020, November 2020, January 2021, September, 2021, October 2021, December 2021, January 2022, and now May 2022. Each time they give us notice about a month or two in advance and then delay it about ten days before the return date because of a new variant or spike in cases. I have high risk family members so I’m grateful to still be at home.

      Some people have returned (it’s optional and capacity is limited) but the majority are still at home.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      My company had been planning a return to office, pushed it back, pushed it back again, pushed it back a third time, and then decided that we’re “flexible” for the foreseeable future, with almost everybody (it’s office work, for the most part) working remotely 100% of the time, and others coming into the office only 1-2 days a week.

    4. A Poster Has No Name*

      We started back 2x a week for about 5 minutes in July, then Delta hit and now Omicron. I think there were tentative plans to start back hybrid this month, but from what I can tell the larger org has pretty much thrown in the towel and left it up to individual departments. The offices are open for those that want to go in, with masking required depending on local COVID rates (so, required, AFAIK, were I to go into my office). Nobody I work with is in the office, and that’s the only reason I would have to go into the office, so we’re just chugging along until someone says otherwise. I work with people distributed all over the planet, and for those meetings it’s definitely better for those not in the room to have us all remote, as in-room microphones and whatnot tend to suck, so while there is somewhat less productivity for all of us used to being in the office together, it’s better for those who are full-time remote, so that’s a thing.

    5. Sabine the Very Mean*

      My state gov office is saying to come back 2x per week and I. Just. Cant. It is so stupid and pointless. I’m still remote from the team when I’m the one in the office on Wednesdays and Adnan is there on Thursdays and Zola is there on Fridays. I have zero interest in being in the same space as people so I’m not going to change when I come in. I get close to nothing done because I’m now in a weird uncomfortable space and I’m back to doing that “sitting there so that I’m sitting there because I’m paid to sit there” thing.

    6. WomEngineer*

      I’m in the South with a large company. They’re waiting for community transmission levels to stay low for at least a month and will be requiring vaccination. Only essential people and those who can’t work from home are in the office. We’ll be hybrid once we go back, but they haven’t announced what that will look like. (I at least know where my cubicle will be.)

      It seems like whenever there’s a department meeting, someone asks about the RTO date or if the criteria is changing. Each time, there is nothing new to share.

      Personally, I’m looking forward to not being in limbo like this. I’m living with family until I need to be closer to work. It’s comfortable and much less expensive, but at the same time I’m looking forward to the next chapter of my life.

    7. This Old House*

      We had lots of promises of “plenty of notice” for returning to the office. I got 10 days (in part because the informational meeting happened when I was out sick, but there was no follow-up email and my boss was impossible to get in touch with to catch me up). We’ve been full-time in-person, no work from home allowed, since August 2021. As I mentioned in a thread above, they pushed back the start of in-person classes for students during Omicron, but staff have been required to be in-person the entire time.

    8. Irish girl*

      My company started Phase 3 “new normal” of flexible hybrid in October after pushing back a month. They gave up pushing back anymore and jsut moved ahead. THey still leave it up to individual managers as to how to enforce that. My manager and her manager have done nothing and everyone is still remote and it seems like we will buck the company line. Other departments have been pushing to get people back ASAP. We did get a note that managers could allow fully remote in January and it was just extended through Feb. But at manager and situation specific. 10 days notice is very short time if now you have to deal with school drop off and pick up for a kid or adjust to your commute or even get work appropriate clothes that fit.

    9. Sam*

      I’m in tech at an international financial firm, and we are increasingly on a ridiculous in/out loop. We started a staggered RTO in June 2021, rolled it back to voluntary after one month because of Delta. Reintroduced it non-staggered in October 2021, 3 days a week, rolled it back to voluntary in December. We’re going back again, still at 3/2, in about two weeks, and I give it three months maximum before we roll it back again. Of course “voluntary” is a relative term for support staff – my team in user technology but also catering, cleaning, admins etc. – as is “three days”; people can choose which three days a week to come in, and so we need to have coverage five days a week, ten hours a day. Anyway the ultimate joke is people are coming back into the office after two years at home and looking at our existing technology and going “Huh. This sucks. Can you make this more like my home set-up?”

    10. JustaTech*

      So, mine is a little weird because of my industry. Our manufacturing site (medical stuff) never went home (but they’ve always worked masked so we haven’t yet had any on-site transmission). Non-manufacturing people were WFH, unless you were essential lab staff, and then you only came in for essential lab stuff and did analysis and stuff at home.
      Then fall 2020 other lab staff were asked to come back (masked) and “get back to work” (ugh) which we did until Delta, when a bunch of people went back to WFH most days. Then once everyone was vaccinated (not company policy, more ugh) most lab folks were back on site most days, up until Omicron, when we got official notice to go back to WFH if you’re not manufacturing or essential lab staff (except our director was like “no, you lab people come in”, so we’re in on lab work days, masked).

      As far as I can tell, all the non-lab/building/manufacturing folks have either not come back to site at all, or they were maybe 1-2 days a week. And that’s great with me!

      We just got an email that pushed the “please WFH if you can” back into February, but I know that several departments haven’t really been back much at all since 2020, so I’m not sure who it was directed at.

    11. New Mom*

      We’ve been doing a hybrid model since the spring. We’re expected to be in three days a week but I’ve been going in less than that and no one has said anything. It’s tough because we have a lot of parents working so we have school closures etc.

    12. JelloStapler*

      It has been okay, we are mask and vaccine mandated (higher ed) and 100% are compliant with former and upwards of 90% are compliant with the latter (and another 78% have approved exemptions and regularly test). While WFH depends largely on your office and supervisor, ours has been very flexible. We get free testing and higher-quality masks if needed.

      The only issue is a big event in a month that many of us are surprised is still happening. We’ll wait and see.

    13. 653-CXK*

      Fits and starts…since the pandemic, I’ve been allowed to come in weekly to take care of the mail, but after I got COVID, I didn’t come in for three months after that, and I was planning to return to return to my previous weekly schedule before Omicron came along and squelched it. Our company works with seniors, so our company is steadfastly cautious about us coming back full time to avoid infection.

      I don’t see us coming back to the office full time until at least March. As much as I like working from home, there are things I need to do in the office that can’t be done at home, and sometimes coming to the office once per week doesn’t cut it.

    14. Quinalla*

      People have been allowed to come in since vaccines were readily available with masking anytime not at your desk, desks at least 6′ apart, not required to mask at your desk. If you want to come in, it has to be coordinated to make sure not too many in at once. If you don’t want to come in every day or at all, that is totally fine as well. So many people (like me) are still WFH full time, many are coming in 1-3 days a week and some go in everyday. It is working well for us and there is no plan for return to normal or new normal at all and people are starting to ask if this is the new normal. A lot of us think it should be, we’ll see :)

  11. BEC Mode*

    We had some turnover last year in our department during The Great Resignation (more like a Great Reshuffling, in my profession). We were set to hire a staff person, Beatrice, at a Level 2 but one of the more senior staff people left and that opened up a Level 3. Beatrice has lots of work experience, just not in this type of work, and we thought she would be able to stretch into the Level 3 position without anything beyond the usual learning curve when you join a new company. So she was hired at Level 3.

    I should note that Level 3 is as high as you can go before becoming a manager.

    I am a Level 3 and I am the senior-most Senior, not only in terms of overall experience relative to this type of work but in terms of length of time in the department.

    Since Day 1, Beatrice has acted like she is already a manager. She offers up the Level 1 and Level 2 people to other people’s projects, as if those folks are hers to assign. Most times, they are unaware that she is offering their services to the other Level 3 people.

    She has spent a lot of her time trying to learn our systems when I’ve offered to show her the tips and tricks I’ve learned over the past two years. But, instead, she spends hours Googling videos and scrolling through Help documents, then presents whatever she has learned to our *entire* department as “Look at this great thing that I – and I alone! – have learned. Let me share my great knowledge with you!”

    And I’m like, “Yes, thank you. If you’ll check our teams’ SharePoint site, you’ll see that all of that already exists. I created it two years ago. Perhaps we can combine everything and keep it in that one space so it’s easier to find.”

    In short, she rubs me the wrong way and I am already at Bitch Eating Crackers level with her, even though she has only been on board for three months. (Uggggghhhhhh…. It seems so much longer!)

    I guess I’d like some insight on how people like Beatrice are viewed by others. And I’d like a reminder that I only stand to lose if I say anything to any of my managers about Beatrice’s “overreach”.

    And, hell, I’m just looking for a safe space to vent! :-D

    1. Survived*

      Oh, that sounds awful. I recently had to work with someone who is very insecure. They could only accept praise, not information. They’d leave everything to the last minute, create a crisis, and then declare themself a hero for “fixing” it.

      I have no useful advice for you on how to cope. I’m just relieved that my project with them is over.

    2. Colette*

      I actually think it might be worth bringing this to a manager’s attention – specifically her making committments about what other people will do. Something like “I heard from Beatrice that Level1Person is available to work on my project – is she managing their time now, or should I still go to PreviousPerson?”

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      Ugh. I’m at BEC with her just from reading your post! In my current company people like that tend to rub just about everyone the wrong way until sooner or later it’s called out (and usually either corrected or managed out. )
      There’s a very good chance management is already aware. I wouldn’t go out of my way to complain about her, but if I were asked for input I would be honest about her issues.

    4. betsyohs*

      Vent more! Stories about terrible coworkers are why I come here every day!

      Most reasonable people probably see her the same way you do. They’re rolling their eyes at her antics, and maybe pitying her for whatever insecurity she has that makes her feel a need to act that way. But maybe you don’t work with mostly reasonable people?

      Also wondering if you can come up with concrete examples of how her overreach is affecting your work so you can go to your managers. She’s wasting her time on youtube instead of using your documentation, but that’s not affecting your work, so it’s her manager’s job to fix, not yours. But if she is offering up your Level 1&2 people, and you are having to do more work because of it (filling in for them? telling them that they need to keep working on the projects you assigned them?), that is totally something you can take to your manager.

    5. Bagpuss*

      Is there a way to speak to a manager about it without it backfiring on you?

      Maybe raise the issue of her offering / trying to assign level 1 or 2 people and that fact that this is disruptive and liable to lead to confusion as the people she is looking to ‘assign’ are not aware

      With the shared systems – do you have any sense that anyone else is unaware of the existing resources? If so, then could you offer to give everyone a general update, if not, could you raise it as ‘Beatrice didn’t seem to be aware of all of our systems and processes, and seemed resistant when I offered to show her. I’m aware that this meant she spent a lot of time reinventing the wheel – is there a way to make sure that she, and other new hires, are made aware of the resources we have available so this can be avoided moving forward?’

      I’m not sure whether you’ve actually spoken to her directly, or whether her attempts to assign people is actually affecting anything other that to annoy you. Maybe if she offers anyone to you you can mention then that she doesn’t actually have the authority to assign anyone and that offering to do so is likely to cause confusion.

      Are there any managers that you could speak to informally to mention what’s happening and that it means she’s not using her time very efficiently but also that it is liable to cause confusion – you could ask whether the procedure has changed so that you and other Seniors*can* assign staff

      1. BEC Mode*

        My manager and I are working on me either creating training sessions for anyone who wants to attend or me holding weekly “Ask Me Anything” hours / sessions. I suggested the latter because when we’ve done trainings in the past, most people only needed to know 1 or 2 things from the hour-long sessions and I don’t want to waste anyone’s time.

        So, yes, there are things I know that new people — and even seasoned people! — don’t know and I’m trying to come up with the most effective way to share that knowledge.

        Beatrice’s attempts to assign people aren’t affecting my work but it could affect the Level 1 and Level 2 people, if they don’t know they can push back when Beatrice says, “I told BEC you’d help them with X.”

        The first couple of times she offered up someone to help me [when I hadn’t asked anyone for help, so I have literally no idea why she started doing this], I did the polite, “Ah, no thanks, I’m good.” She made some dumb joke like, “I know you’re good but do you need any help? Har. Har.” Which was also cringe-worthy. The third time she did it, I replied, “I’ll reach out to Level2Person directly if I need them.” That seems to have mostly stopped Beatrice from trying to assign people to my projects.

        Actually, the *first* time she offered help, I thought she meant herself. Which would have been fine because I could have used Level3 help. So I said Yes. And she immediately replied, “OK, I’ll have Level2Person contact you for details.” And I was like, “No, please do not do that. I thought you were offering your own Level 3 help.” And her reply was along the lines of how silly it would be for her to offer to help on another Senior’s project, implying that Seniors only lead their own projects and don’t do any of the actual work. (I’m WTFing all over again!)

        The one manager I mentioned it to is someone who was a peer of mine until four months ago when she was promoted to manager. She and Beatrice were cohorts in our university’s program (that most of us in the department graduated from), so she just thinks Beatrice’s antics are funny.

        The reason I wrote today was that Beatrice sent a department-wide email this morning — including our Sr VP!! — to crow about the separate folder she created on SharePoint that contains the same stuff I put on SharePoint two years ago. I Replied All with pretty much the quote in my original post., so the whole department got to see it. I did my best to make the phrasing sound like, “Good job! Let’s put everything together in one place to maximize its benefit.” [barf]

        And one of the parts about her “Look at the great things I have learned and am sharing with all of you!” that bugs me is that she created the folder in the section where all of our 2022 projects are. Meaning that, even if her info was helpful, it would be hard for a newbie to find.

        *MY* folder, on the other hand, is in the main branch of the file folder tree. So instead of “DeptName –> Projects –> 2022 –> Training Resources ” it’s in “DeptName –> System Training and Helpful Tips”. And, under “System Training and Helpful Tips” I created folders for each of the systems.

        And now I realize I’m sounding petty but, dammit, I don’t care at the moment. :-D :-D

        1. Texan In Exile*

          Not petty. Your folder structure is logical. Hers is not. At a higher level, you are right and she is wrong.

          I say this with solidarity. I had a boss who would rename the files on our shared I had asked him to review, save them to his hard drive, and email them to me.

          My folder structure and names looked like this:
          Board of Directors reports/[year]/[month]/Board of Directors Report Jan 2022.ppt

          He would rename my file to:
          2022-01-28BrdDirRpt

          I do not miss that boss.

          1. BEC Mode*

            Thank you for the solidarity, Texan in Exile.

            P.S. While I enjoyed the laughs you provided in your previous blog [D & S were a riot to read about, but I’m sure they were hell to deal with], I am loving your current one and how you highlight the systemic, *purposefully-placed* inequities between genders.

    6. River Otter*

      Well, it doesn’t really help you to find out how people like Beatrice are viewed in the AAM comment section.
      If you are looking for validation and being BEC, you will definitely find that here. If you are looking for a way to feel more peaceful at work, I recommend you look for ways to reframe Beatrice and think about her differently. You can’t change Beatrice, but you can change how you view her and how you respond to her.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Are the Level 1 and 2s complaining about being “assigned” things? Is it taking them from their normal duties? Is it affecting your work directly?

      She seems public enough about what she’s doing that folks can definitely see her “managerial” performances. If you interact with her day-to-day, I might keep a handful of small wet blankets like “that’s helpful, could you please add that to our SharePoint next to the current information on the same topic,” or “I think Fergus and Jane would be excellent Level 2s to help us with that. Let me check with their manager to make sure that they have room on their schedule.” Just enough to quietly set up the boundaries.

      She might successfully trample the boundaries and bolt up the career ladder, or she might start internalizing some of the structures in place.

      Someone hasn’t clarified how she should be interacting with the Level 1 and 2s, and the rest of it might be over-enthusiasm (or More Enthusiasm Than You Would Do but perhaps not actually over the line — you might want to do a light check in with your colleagues. If they aren’t responding similarly, this might, unfortunately, be a you problem).

      I hear you. And I encourage you to let a lot of it shake out as she learns the ropes. It doesn’t seem like there’s enough concrete complaints to actually bring to management. So find a mantra and see if it gets you through the days. (My personal recommendation … “There could be cocktails when I get home if she’s annoying enough.”)

      1. BEC Mode*

        Thanks. This was the reminder that I said I needed of how bad it would look if I said anything to the managers about her.

        Vent here, then let it go.

        Followed by cocktails. :-)

    8. JelloStapler*

      From another person with seniority and longevity, that would drive the ever-loving crap out of me. In fact, I have been there, and it did. Is it her feeling insecure in the role and trying to show upper levels that she is qualified?

      1. BEC Mode*

        She’s only been here three months and we’re both WFH right now so I can only guess at her motivations.

        But it definitely seems like she’s trying to make sure she’s next in line for a promotion to manager by doing as many Look At Me! things as she can.

        Which would be completely bonkers in our department. It’s really hard to do our jobs well without a fairly deep knowledge of both the different areas of the company *and* the different personalities of the people who run each business unit.

        At three months in, she’s still learning how to filter and export data from one of our more basic, user-friendly systems. (Which, btw, was one of her “LOOK AT THIS AMAZING THING I DISCOVERED AND AM GENEROUSLY SHARING WITH ALL OF YOU” things. ::eyeroll::).

  12. Anonymous reader*

    Hello to the AAM community! I asked this question last week but wanted to try again in search of more ideas.

    I’ve worked in book publishing as a production editor for 10 years and I’m thinking about leaving. Has anyone left book publishing/production editorial and what kind of job did you go to?

    Did your skills transfer to other jobs?

    For those who don’t know, production editors don’t acquire manuscripts. They turn completed manuscripts into books. They hire copy editors and proofreaders and review their work. Then they review galley pages through the final version. They proofread the covers at all stages and make sure everything matches the house style. In short, they follow the book through multiple stages until it’s ready to go to the printer.

    Is there another field where this kind of experience would be useful?

    1. 867-5309*

      Do you want to leave copying editing or just the book industry?

      Many ad agencies have copy editors and proofreaders.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You’ve got some kick butt project management skills. Coordinating deadlines and documents amongst many humans. Quality control. Time management.

      I encourage you to search for jobs using some of the transferable skills as search terms until you spot a type of job that you’d like to focus on, then do searches on that job (e.g, corporate communications offices, or contract coordinator or whatever). Keep a tight look at what skills they’re asking for in the job postings, and write a resume that speaks very directly to those skills.

      You might make a lateral move, or you might end up having to take a step down (and if so, take one in an industry that you’re interested in so can get the new relevant set of skills/knowledge and move up).

      There’s a US DOL web tool at myskillsmyfuture.org that lets you put in a job title and it’ll give you other jobs with related skills. Try that out with a few of your target jobs to see if you can triangulate on a good one.

      1. Anonymous reader*

        Thank you! I’m not used to thinking of my skills that way. It’s more “how to get this book out the door”!

        1. bookartist*

          I was once in very similar shoes (Project Editor which for those who do not know is a file mover and schedule maker role) and did exactly the above – started as a project coordinator/English proofer for a translation agency. I got my PMP after I put in enough hours to qualify and have had several jobs managing Creative team PMs. And now that I no longer *make* books, I no longer scrutinize copyright pages and perfect binding jobs when browsing at the bookstore.

    3. PalmTreeMusings*

      I don’t know the answer to this question… but can I have your old job when you leave it? :)

    4. Siege*

      I was a development editor as well as a production editor. When I left editing, I went back to school and trained as a web/graphic designer, which is more or less more relevant to my job now (communications), but I use my editorial experience as project management experience, because it is, even though I wasn’t the acquiring editor for a lot of the books I worked on. It transfers from the standpoint of working on large projects, but for the work I’m doing now mostly because I have a sense of the lifecycle of a project, not because they’re terribly similar structurally. And I’m a fiend for proofreading. :)

    5. Alexandrine*

      Project management could be a possibility. It sounds like you’re already doing a basic level of PMing; you should definitely have transferrable skills.

    6. Purely Allegorical*

      I used to have a similar job as an editor (long-form academic articles for a journal, rather than books). There are LOADS of ways you can re-package these skills. Things that come immediately to mind: become a web editor instead, publishing pages and managing Content Management Systems (in this day and age I think it’s always smart to lean Tech); become a management consultant focused on organizational management (I do this currently); become a Technical Writer (those can pay really well, depending).

      I’ve done versions of all of the above. If you want to pick up a couple other skills, I highly recommend the consulting industry. Get into a consulting firm trading on your org/process skills, and then jump around to different accounts that focus on different things. That’s what I’ve done, and while I don’t love the consulting field as a whole, I have a boatload of marketable skills now.

      1. Anonymous reader*

        Hello! If you’re still online, could you talk some more about this? What kind of consulting firm did you join? And did they train you for the different skills for different accounts?

      2. Marketing Middle Manager*

        Seconding this. Your skills would be highly transferrable to managing websites or other digital content. You’d be publishing digital pages instead of physical pages, but many of the steps sound similar in terms of project management, quality assurance, and copyediting. Try searching for job titles like web manager, website product manager, or digital marketing (though this can mean a lot of different things at different companies). You can improve your chances of making the transition if you learn some adjacent skills like SEO, HTML, UX.

        I would also echo what another commenter said above about typing your SKILLS into that LinkedIn job search bar, and then see what kinds of job titles come up. The Occupational Outlook Handbook might also be helpful to you for exploring different clusters of similar roles.

    7. Xenia*

      Fair warning: I have no experience with book publishing or copy editing, and I don’t know if this is far enough out that ‘another field’ applies.

      That said: I work for a small to medium public accounting firm. One of our departments is a small but dedicated word processing team. These folks handle financial statements in a similar way to what you describe: they get a rough draft of the financials, make it look all nice and pretty, and wrangle both the client and our company’s team assigned to that client in the process of getting all the correct numbers and disclosures into the statements. I know other firms have similar positions. So if you’re looking for copy editing type work but in a different industry, something like that might work?

    8. MissDisplaced*

      There are still editors at a lot of places that publish content (white papers, finance, reports, research, news, academic, etc.). The main difference between those and book publishing is that the end result will be digital. If you haven’t worked outside of print publishing, you might want to look into a short course on digital media/content marketing and SEO to up your skills.

      Digital Content Editor
      Digital Editor or Content Editor or Content Manager
      Content & Editorial Leader
      Head of Content & Editorial

      You could also switch to marketing, communications, or maybe project management.

    10. Redaktorin*

      People keep responding to this as if you were a copy editor, but it sounds more like you hire and corral copy editors without necessarily being one yourself.

      I’m a copy editor for an ad agency, and your job sounds like my project manager’s job. Which is great! She makes more than me. Go check out project management jobs for ad agencies.

  13. DigitalEmployee*

    I need advice for what to do next. I received a soft offer on a job I interviewed for. I was told they had to meet internally to go over compensation and draft an offer letter. I was also told the offer letter “should be” emailed to me by today (but no firm commitment on timing).

    I’m distracted and continuously refreshing my email hoping for it to come through. The application status on their website says “Finalist” but my biggest fear is I’m going to be passed over due to budget or that I’m their second choice and the first choice passed but then reached back out. I told them it would take X for me to accept which is below the salary max but now I’m doubting that decision too.

    I’m also involved in the hiring process at my current employer (an equally large and well known company) so I know there can be delays. The company I interviewed with is one of our vendors so I could be walked as soon as I give notice too.

    Question: when do I follow up and what do I say? I will go with a phone call rather than an email.

    My anxiety is eating at me. I’ve also been invited to interview with a couple other companies and I’d like to withdraw from that process to maintain the relationship (employee referrals in both cases).

    1. Anon for This*

      I finally had an offer letter go out this week to someone I selected over the holidays. Not knowing how long ago they told you “by today”, I’d give them a few days more. These things never go as quickly as we expect (hope?). If they told you this a day or two ago, I’d give them at least a week.

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t think you should withdraw from other interviews. The worst-case scenario is that you get offered multiple jobs and have to decline one or two, no? That’s not really a problem.

      I wouldn’t follow up before Wednesday or Thursday next week. Being able to meet internally about a new hire can easily get thrown a bit off course if someone is sick, or there’s some unrelated issue that needs urgent attention, etc.

      1. DigitalEmployee*

        I’m definitely not withdrawing until I have a start date and everything is in place. I want to avoid burning the bridges with the other two companies and the individuals who recommended me if I can help it but this role could be worth doing that. It’s a huge career step (which is why I’m also overthinking it and second guessing myself.)

        1. pancakes*

          If they would consider it a bridge burned for you to take a role elsewhere that’s a huge step up for you, they’re not reasonable. Taking a job with them or applying for a job with them should be something that makes sense for both you and the employer, not some sort of loyalty test.

    3. anonymous73*

      Give it another week and reach back out. The worst thing you can do is hound them over and over. Things happen that mess with timing, especially with management who are usually the ones making the decisions.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      Today as in today? If that is the case, you should hold off until the end of the day. If you don’t have it by Monday morning, just reach out. Most companies are doing a lot of hiring right now so the offer might be delayed behind getting other letters drafted. But it would be perfectly reasonable to follow up on the next business day after the offer letter was promised. They would expect that. And don’t withdrawal yourself from other opportunities until you have accepted the new job and passed their background check. Something could come up during that period of time so I would never recommend pulling out of another job interview process until your offer is without contingencies.

    5. Purple Cat*

      If the offer wasn’t supposed to come to you until “today” meaning “Friday” then I would wait until Tuesday morning to follow-up. You can’t follow-up today because that’s before their stated due date. And I feel like people catch up on things on Monday.

    6. BRR*

      I would wait until Wednesday (easier said than done, I know). That would be my advice if they said “we will email you an offer by today” and their message to you wasn’t even a concrete date. I would also email instead of call. There are very few instances in the hiring process where you should call instead of email and this isn’t one of them.

      You also will maintain a relationship if you interview than withdraw, schedule and interview then cancel it, or decline an offer. There are all perfectly normal and acceptable things. Just don’t ghost the companies if they reach out to you.

    7. Haha Lala*

      I agree with the other advice, wait until next week, Tuesday or Wednesday at the earliest.
      Reaching out any sooner won’t do anything to help your case. They’ve likely already made their decision and are just working through the formalities. It’s out of your hands for the time being and you just have to wait it out.

      When you do follow up “Hi Jane, I’m following up on out conversation last week. I haven’t seen any emails come through since then and I wanted to check with you to make sure I didn’t miss anything. Is there anything else you need from me?”

    8. voluptuousfire*

      Keep interviewing until you have an offer in hand. Having other irons in the fire if this ends up not working out gives you other things to focus on.

    9. Public Sector Manager*

      With a deadline of Friday the 28th, I’d honestly wait until next Friday. These things always, always take more time than expected. We just hired a bunch of people, and for the last hire, the offer was delayed by about 10 days just because of circumstances with work (client issues, deadline issues, workflow issues), and both my boss and I were in the office and not on vacation. Sometimes work happens.

      If next Friday rolls around with no word, when you call, just ask if they have an updated status on the soft offer. No need to pitch yourself again. If they are a good employer and they want you to join their team, they will let you know what’s going on. Should they be calling you next week to let you know there is a delay? Yes, but sometimes these things steamroll (Ted in HR is going to get back to them Tuesday a.m., so they decide not to call because it’s just Tuesday a.m., Ted gets delayed to Wednesday noon, now Margie isn’t available until Thursday p.m., and they are wondering what they should tell you). Is it a red flag? Not at this stage.

  14. Bootstrap Paradox*

    I feel like I’ve reached a stage in my career where I may benefit from a professional coach – not an exec. level coach, as I am more mid-level. I stress ‘may’, as I am unfamiliar with the full range of professional coaching services. This thought now seems especially timely/appropriate as a reorg at work and being put on some bigger projects brings leadership and change management much more in to play. This is a refresh, with a new twist, on a question I previously asked not remembering it was XMas Eve until I had posted.

    Have any of you used a professional coach, and if so, would you be willing to share some of your experiences? Are there different varieties of professional coach? Does working in the Government space merit the need for someone with experience in that general arena? What sorts of areas do professional coaches focus on? My tech and communication skills are quite strong, but I think leadership at the higher levels is an area for growth.

    I am usually pretty ruthless about self reflection and examination, as well as having piled up all manner of appropriate certifications (next up – PMP), and have pretty much worked my way through my 5 year list. I do have a couple brief leadership courses lined up for this coming year. But I think some outside…examination? input? may be beneficial when it comes to stepping up to the next level. Also, do you interview potential coaches, or…?

    1. River Otter*

      I have been through both group coaching and had an individual coach. The problem with coaches is, there are 1 million schools of thought and coaching “certifications“ and there’s really no way to tell who is going to be good at it and who is not. Depending on what you want to work on, a therapist might actually be a better bet. There is a fair amount of overlap between therapy and coaching in terms of examining your thought patterns and determining which ones are beneficial and which ones need to be changed. Coaches and therapists can both help you with things like overcoming perfectionism or using assertive communication. Frequently people have to move between coaching and therapy because they might find that their behaviors at work are rooted in something that should really be dealt with by a licensed therapist, such as, their beliefs about authority figures might have been shaped by their parents. So just start with the therapist! Plus, therapy might be covered by your insurance at least partly, where is coaches definitely are not.
      There is an HBR (Harvard business review) podcast by an executive coach. I am afraid I don’t know the exact title, but I hope that is enough information for you to find the podcast. The coach is truly excellent. I recommend listening to that podcast to get a sense of what a very good coach is like to better help you evaluate whether a coach that you find is a good one or not.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      The on-line coaching field is currently exploding. You may want to checkout a service that matches people with coaches to help you find the right one. My company is currently looking at providing the services of BetterUp to our people but I believe they also provide this service to individuals.

    3. Hmmmm*

      I did for about a year. At the time, it didn’t feel like it was very useful.

      But a couple years later, I started seeing how implementing her suggestions had helped me. For example, she suggested a mentor within a nonprofit I volunteer for. I thought she was nuts …that’s THE LEAST corporate environment ever, and what could I learn to help my career. But, ya know, what I learned from that mentor is patience and how to meet broken people where they’re at. And that has changed how I interact with people at work. I thought I was the only broken person in corporate America and everyone else was fine. Nope, a lot of people are broken and need genuine empathy. And that reframed my own defensiveness and made me more open. It did not actually get me promoted, but I’m a better person and better and what I do.

      I honestly wouldn’t pay a coach though. I got this low cost through an educational program.

  15. Burnt In Screensaver*

    This is probably a very dumb question, but I’ve never done it before- I was hired by a recruiter out of college. But, like, how do you begin looking for a new job? Do you just google your job title plus location? How do you begin sorting through the overwhelming number of listings that come up?

    1. Littorally*

      I like working in large corporate environments, so I tend to start by looking at some of the larger companies in my industry in the area I live or want to live in, and check those companies’ career pages for anything interesting. If that doesn’t bear fruit or I need to cast a wider net, then I move on to searching more general sites, but even then I will generally take note of company names and then look for their individual websites and career pages rather than working through the job aggregator.

    2. londonedit*

      Are there any industry/local/other publications in your field/location that host job adverts? In publishing there are a couple of industry-specific magazines that have job listings online, and there are a couple of well-known recruitment agencies that advertise jobs on behalf of publishing companies, so those are the first places everyone looks when they’re after a new job. I’d also look at individual companies’ websites, as they usually have a section called ‘Jobs’ or ‘Work for us’ listing their current vacancies.

      1. Burnt In Screensaver*

        I’m not sure- I’m a programmer. I’ve seen job ads on stack overflow, so I guess I could start there

        1. Eden*

          Fellow dev – I’ve googled things like “best tech jobs in [city]” as a start, as well as just taken stock at apps and sites that I use and like and researched those companies. From there, a lot of looking at glassdoor. Amd of course ask any friends you moght have in the business if they’re happy where they are. The sky is really the limit for a programmer!

          1. Burnt In Screensaver*

            Neat! I guess I’ve been passively doing that already, taking stock of sites that I think are well-designed and seeing if they have openings.

            I do get that feeling, that the sky’s the limit. I think that sums up why it feels overwhelming.

        2. LDN Layabout*

          I’d also consider checking out recruiters if you’re in an in-demand profession as well. Do you have coworkers who have left semi-recently? Are you on LinkedIn?

          1. Burnt In Screensaver*

            I’m technically on linkedin, under my deadname with a very inaccurate picture of me. I’m not sure if I should start over or try to change everything

    3. cubone*

      This honestly isn’t that dumb! Did you graduate recently? If so, your college might have a career centre that serves alumni for x amount of time post grad and you could ask them for some advice. But typically people use a variety of job boards by location. Indeed is one, Glassdoor, I do believe Google aggregates some of these but i personally don’t use Google itself for job hunting. Industries often have specific ones too (eg Charity Village in Canada is where non profit roles are regularly posted). Ask around or search for “x industry job boards”. Also, if you can find newsletters or industry websites, often they might aggregate job boards (eg I think Inside Higher Ed has one for higher education jobs).

      The other method is looking for specific companies and checking their individual websites! This is a good method but requires you to be in a place where you know what companies you want to work for.

      2. Burnt In Screensaver*

        “X industry job boards” sounds like a good idea! I’m not sure how that would work if I want to switch industries, but I could probably figure that out. I’m doing web developement stuff for a finance company now but tbh I want something that aligns better with my values

        1. cubone*

          I’m in a similar boat (switching industries) and don’t know exactly where to look either! It might actually be one of the more appropriate ways to use networking – finding some people with “dream jobs” or in areas of interest, asking if you can ask some questions about it and how they got there, are there tools like job banks or networking groups you should be aware of.

          Also, can’t believe I forgot Linkedin, thanks to fake Giraffe :) I find Linkedin is pretty decent at adjusting their algorithm of recommending jobs. I started clicking on/saving jobs in the area I’d like to work and pretty soon I started seeing way more of them in my recommendations (vs. jobs more aligned with what I’m doing now)

          1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            The nice thing about using LinkedIn is that you can search for people who have a particular job and see how they describe it. No need to go through the hassle of trying to set up “informational interviews” with complete strangers — read the profiles, follow people you’re interested in, and, if you want, start interacting with their posts to get the conversation going.

      3. Xenia*

        Our college had a Handshake profile that I found extremely useful. Seeing if your college has some sort of dedicated job board is a great place to start.

    4. anonymous73*

      I use online websites – the 2 I use the most are Indeed and LinkedIn. You create an account, upload your resume, and search for jobs using filters based on your experience and needs. And if any of your colleagues know any recruiters, reach out to them and see if they have anything available. This is all dependent on what type of work you do – I’ve worked in IT my whole career and am currently a PM.

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      I would recommend starting by looking at job posting on LinkedIn assuming your profession would be included. You can filter by company, location, key word, etc. and most major companies advertise there for professional roles.

    6. Nicki Name*

      What industry are you in? Sometimes there will be a particular job listing site which works better than others for it. For instance, I’m in IT and Dice has been way more productive for me than the other big job sites.

    7. New Mom*

      I had worked as a classroom teacher and then wanted to work in education at a nonprofit so I googled “best education nonprofit to work at in [my location]” and a few lists came up and I looked at their careers page/hirings and applied to positions I was eligible for and got hired at one.

    8. StellaBella*

      I look at LinkedIn, Indeed.com, local job boards. I search on my profession. I am also on a few job board mailing lists too.

    9. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      It might be different in different industries, but I usually start with the free major job boards like Indeed or LinkedIn or Zip Recruiter. Lately, Indeed has been the best one. for me (whatever happened to Monster and CareerBuilder?)

      >Setup a custom search by Current Job Title and Location/Zip Code + 20 mile radius.
      >Refine that search by varying experience levels, or by a broader radius or nationwide search.
      >Possibly refine by broader Job Role Area. Example: If I’m a Digital Marketing Manager perhaps I want to set my search for general “Marketing” or “Communications” Sometimes this will give you related jobs you didn’t think about.
      >I always sort my searches to show only Show Newest Within Last Week to keep down the volume of listings. In my experience, jobs listed 3+ weeks are dead.

      If I need to I might go to niche boards like HigherEdJobs or Dice or whatever fits the industry I’m specifically looking in. There are also some boards for Remote-Workers if you want that specifically.

  16. Orange Crushed*

    My coworkers are very competitive. It’s not like you have to be- we’re not in sales or in an environment where you have to be more aggressive- it’s just how they are.

    They’re competitive socially as well- the manager that I work with “Jon” is always giving me a hard time for being quiet. He brags about the people that he talks with. He hangs out with another manager. She doesn’t seem to like me. She also seems to get mad/annoyed if Jon talks to me. (She’ll call him over to come by her if he’s by me.)

    They also gossip about every little thing- they thought that I was upset one day because I jumped up from my seat and hurried off. (I wasn’t- I had to stop an order from being processed.) Another time, I had to go for a test in another building and when I cam back, my coworker noticed it on my calendar and was like, “Oh, you were over there!” Sheesh! I don’t want to have to explain where I’m going *every time* that I get up from my desk. Sorry- not doing it!

    The culture is very difficult to understand and figure out.
    I’m introverted and even if I tried my hardest, I couldn’t compete with them. I’m always the outsider, never the cool kid.

    Any advice? Has anyone ever been in a situation like this? What did you do?

    1. RagingADHD*

      I haven’t been in an environment that intrusive and obnoxious, but I have nearly always been at least somewhat of an outsider. I guess I dealt with it by…embracing it?

      I’m polite and generally warm and collegial with my coworkers. I’ll be friendly with whoever wants to be friendly. I can get along with anyone who isn’t actively nasty and rude – them I shut down, avoid, and/or ignore. But I don’t chase after people to try and be friends, because my real friends are elsewhere. I’m just trying to make the work environment as calm and pleasant as possible.

      Honestly, people who are as shallow and immature as your coworkers seem to respond best to being treated like someone else’s ill-mannered children. “Oh, okay.” and “How nice for you.” “Oh, was someone looking for me? Did they leave a message?” Sincere, pleasant, slightly detached.

      The less you try to fit in with them or get them to like you, the more they will try to get you to like them.

      1. Cj*

        “The less you try to fit in with them or get them to like you, the more they will try to get you to like them.”
        Kind of like a cat!

        1. RagingADHD*

          I always heard that, but we got our first ever cat this year, and he likes to be scooped up like a baby and kissed on the face. So CMMV, I guess (cat mileage may vary).

    2. Shelby*

      It’s okay not to be the cool kid. I’m an introvert and I can’t compete with extroverts either, because the prize is ultimately…more unwanted conversations! But I understand that some people are uncomfortable with my silence, so if they comment on it, I just explain that I’m more of a listener and that I enjoy hearing about other peoples’ lives (from them, that is, not as gossip) and insights, which is true. (For the record, I hate the “you’re so quiet” comment which seems to be acceptable in our society. I don’t tell people “you’re so loud” or “you never stop talking”.)

      Then I try to check in with co-workers periodically, asking how they’re doing, how are their kids/new dogs, whether they have fun plans for the weekend or summer. I usually speak to them at their desks or in a common area and I tend to be less conversational if someone comes uninvited to my office to chat–I hate being cornered by a talker.

      As for the nosiness, that can be really hard to stop unless management is committed to making it stop (and it sounds like your manager is taking part in it). Is it possible to move your desk to a less conspicuous location?

    3. New Mom*

      Are you new? When I started my job years ago I remember feeling like the team I started on was very cliquey. I was feeling a bit out of my element and was not vibing with my manager and then the other people that were around my age would go into an office and close the door at lunch and it made me feel like such an outsider. This did not last forever though. I think after about two months one of the other women asked me to have lunch with her one day and slowly people started being friendlier, then some people left and the team culture changed over time. I know that everyone’s situation is different, but I have seen people be much cooler when someone is new and people are sussing them out, and after you “prove” yourself people warm up. It definitely sucks to feel unwelcomed at the start, and if it continues it might just not be a good culture fit.

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      Do you work with 6th graders?!? That behavior is obnoxious. I recommend taking the Anthropologist Doing Fieldwork approach and viewing these coworkers as oddities.
      And stick to bright and breezy replies, like when they ask you if you’re upset because you jumped up. “Nope! Not at all!”
      And if they’re looking at your calendar (online calendar, I’m presuming) when you’re away at a meeting or etc, I highly recommend locking your computer screen EVERY time you step away from your desk. Who knows what other snooping they’re likely to do. (Most places that I worked had the policy of locking your screen whenever you were away from your desk, for security reasons.)

      You can be cordial, polite, and cheerful to these people but don’t even bother trying to be friends with them. You’ll just get sucked into their drama.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      That is not competitive behavior, it’s grammar school behavior.

      I will say this, it’s wise to learn how and when to do random interactions with people. This group is not capable of showing you what normal is so maybe you won’t see it at this job.

      However, just under the heading of good to know- jumping up and leaving a room hurriedly WILL attract attention from people. Unless there’s a fire, you might wanna say “BRB” to a person near you. This is very different from a bathroom/water break. And it’s true you do not have to tell people where you are going but the trade off is they may think you are stand-offish and not inclusive. A solution here would be to say something if you hurry out of the room and/or occasionally say something before you leave but not every time.

      If you talk to one person but don’t talk to another person, it’s likely that the second person will get offended. Here a wise policy might be to treat everyone the same. Say good morning or hello to people, carry yourself as if you are willing to converse with anyone.

      You’re introverted. I get it. So am I. I go home from work and I need a nap because of talking with strangers all day. It has gotten easier over the years, there is a learning curve and things will look differently in a while. However, keep in mind that we are paid in part for our willingness to get along with others. Getting along with others means having basic conversations with them whether we want to or not. Don’t forget you are being paid while you are talking to them.

      There’s a few things here, I’d like to look at for a minute:
      “He brags about the people that he talks with.” So this is an insecure person. They have to show you/everyone how important they are. People who are truly important do not need to do this. Tell him, “that’s nice” and return to what you were working on.

      “They also gossip about every little thing”. This happens in a lot of work places. Someone is right there to point out how supposedly strange someone else’s behavior is. It’s like being under a microscope. There is gossip that can be a real problem and there is gossip that can be ignored. Try to see the difference between the two- so you can ignore the running commentary more often.

      “I don’t want to have to explain where I’m going *every time* that I get up from my desk. Sorry- not doing it!” This level of reaction does not match the event that caused it. I do not see where anyone said you “had” to tell them where you were going “every” time you left the room. You jumped up and left hurriedly- they probably wondered if you were fleeing the building and perhaps they should also. It is a courtesy to say “BRB” or some similar passing comment. No, you don’t “have to”. I have a horrible story of someone who “did not have to” say they were leaving the work area to go to X area. While they were in X area they fell and broke BOTH their ankles. Since they did not tell anyone where they were NO ONE checked for HOURS. Yeah. Hours on the floor with two broken ankles. I want people to question things if I am not back in a reasonable amount of time. In order to get that, I do have to give some clue as to what is going on. “I will be right back!” or “I will be back in 2 hours.”

      “even if I tried my hardest, I couldn’t compete with them.” I am not sure why you think it’s a competition. I don’t see anyone competing at anything here. All I see is one person who appears to be a braggart and another person who could be wondering why you don’t talk to her.

      “I’m always the outsider, never the cool kid.” The people you are working with now, have absolutely no way of knowing that. I suspect there’s some life stuff going on here. If you cannot separate your work place from the life stuff then maybe it’s time to sort the life stuff with a counselor. The reality is that many of us were never the cool kid. I wasn’t one of the cool kids (for reasons). Reality is that unless I say that, most people do not know. We don’t have a sign on our foreheads saying “I’m not cool.”

      Do you often automatically distrust people? It might be wise to work on communicating a little bit more than you do.
      And here is a tidbit to hold on to- it does not matter if cohorts like you or dislike you. All that matters is that the both of you retain a civil enough relationship to do the job. I have worked with people who were my polar opposite. We tried taking breaks together and gave up because we had absolutely nothing in common. But some of these people were the hardest working and best working people I have ever had. Please stop putting a high value on if people like you or not. This will not serve you well. Instead take a look at how well things go in general. Are you both generally pleasant to each other? If work needs to be done together how does that task go? Do you both pull in the same direction? Some times pulling in the same direct to get through a task is as good as good gets.

  17. Kramerica Industries*

    I work in the marketing department for an insurance company. I created a few social media ad images, with one that included a person in a wheelchair. Some of my colleagues had concerns about this/wanted it removed because they thought that people would assume that we were talking about disability insurance (we weren’t) and that it could be misleading.

    I’ve worked in non-insurance roles before and it’s part of my normal process to add a mix of able-bodied and people with visual disabilities to promote diversity. While I want to try to promote diversity in my imagery, do my colleagues have a point here? Are there better ways to approach this?

    3. ferrina*

      It depends on the exact layout of the creative and what materials it’s in, but generally, you should be able to include someone with a visible disability without everyone’s minds leaping to Disability Insurance. If in doubt, run some quick ad tests with your market research team/vendor.

    4. Bagpuss*

      No, they don’t.

      I’d suggest that you point out that it is helpful to show and promote diversity, and presumably your company wants to appear welcoming to people across all demographics – perhaps ask whether if the photo showed a woman or a POC that they would thin people will assume that the post was specific to those groups?

    5. LKW*

      I suppose the appropriate question (at the time they made the comment) was: Do people in wheelchairs not need this particular insurance?

      Yes, absolutely ableist nonsense.

    6. Charlotte Lucas*

      They are wrong. People with disabilities use all kinds of insurance too & appreciate being seen as more than their disability.

      On that note, please make sure you include images of different kinds of disabilities, not just those that include use of a wheelchair. And kids with disabilities! Those pics can be hard to find, & we should be pushing the stock photo companies to provide them.

    7. Can't Sit Still*

      As a disabled person, I enjoy the representation! It doesn’t mean something is only for disabled people, just that disabled people exist and could make use of your products or services.

      And, you didn’t ask, but I would love to see more of disabled people helping able bodied people, rather than vice versa. Or an able bodied senior with a younger disabled adult, not helping, just engaged in an activity or conversation.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Agreed! One of the goals in my workplace is getting young people with disabilities (and their parents) to see themselves in the workforce & ready to enter it. More visuals like that would be wonderful from our perspective.

    9. RagingADHD*

      If they were pointing out that the title or copy in conjunction with that image could be confusing or misleading (such as the title being too vague) then they have a point that the mismatch needs to be fixed.

      But that could also be fixed by using the same image with a different piece of copy.

      If they just didn’t want to use the image at all because Reasons, then no, they don’t have a point.

    10. Generic Name*

      I mean people using wheel chairs are still people who might buy insurance, no? If you showed an image of a black woman would they be asking if the insurance you’re selling is for black women only?

    11. Irish girl*

      Nope, I am in insurance that is not disability and that doesnt read disability insurance to me. There should be more inclusivity in images.

    12. Rosemary*

      I am going to have to disagree with everyone saying her colleagues don’t have a point. I absolutely, 100% commend the effort to be inclusive. However, from a communications standpoint I can understand the concern that viewers might assume “disability insurance” when they see an ad for “insurance” + someone in a wheelchair. Is it “right”? No. But human brains work how they work. I work in marketing research where we are often asking for consumers’ feedback on communications, and the language/imagery used and what they convey/take away from it. I am very confident that there would be feedback (from some! not all!) that “that woman in the wheelchair makes me think this is disability insurance.” That said – I think there are ways around it – for instance, making the copy VERY clear what the product is for, as well as including a range of people in the image, not JUST someone in a wheelchair.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      Reminds me of when I worked at the health “diet” startup and the owner got mad because I had photos of average sized people as well as different races. He claimed people buying a diet only wanted to see the “after” skinny photos or super healthy people stock photos because they were aspirational.
      Really he was just fat phobic.

  18. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    Last week, I asked for advice on who to ask for references from my former tenure-track position, since my former supervisor/Chair was non-responsive. I reached out to a couple of other faculty I worked closely with, but everyone seems to have ghosted me? I haven’t heard back from anyone in the department. The job app has a “preferred deadline” for today, and I am really nervous about not having a reference from what was essentially the first full-time job I had after completing my PhD. But I also don’t want to list someone without permission (or list someone who can’t reply to requests promptly!).

    I’m not sure if there is anything to do at this point, so maybe this is really just venting my frustration.

    1. Green Beans*

      How many times did you follow up? It’s faculty so I’d say 2-3 follow up emails on average.

      Also what did you include in your initial ask?

      1. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        I followed up once with each (4 people total). Some I reached out by email, one I actually texted. In my initial ask, I asked to list them as a reference, and said that likely meant just fielding a phone call if I advanced in the job application (so they didn’t think they had to write a letter).

        1. Camelid coordinator*

          It’s a rough start to the spring semester at most places, and I have found that faculty are very slow to respond unless they need something. It sounds like you might be closest to the person you texted. Could you say “I am going to go ahead and list you since the deadline is today, I’ll let you know if anything comes of it. Good luck with the spring term!” I’d probably add something to the tune of sorry to add to their plate in such a chaotic time but that is how I am.

        2. Green Beans*

          So ideally your initial ask would be more like the below (and you can send a third follow up with the below language, just slightly adjusted.) They’re a lot more likely to say yes if you put everything they need right in front of their face when you ask.

          Hi [Name],

          I applied for [position] at [place] which I’m really excited about! I’m moving forward in the process and they require X references, via phone call (not letter). Would you be willing to serve as one? My CV and the job posting are attached for reference and they’re looking for someone to speak to [specific qualities].

          [If needed] As a quick refresher, I worked with your lab/group on [Project], where I was responsible for [Thing]. I collaborated most closely with [Person] and the project resulted in [Publication/Conference/Book.]

          Thanks!

    2. ferrina*

      Are all your references ghosting you? I assume some from somewhere are responsive, right? You can have a mix of responsive references and one potential-ghost reference. Most employers will understand if one out of three (or four) references vanishes.

    3. adminatlarge*

      I would just pick some people who you trust to act as a reference and send them an email stating it as a fact. “I have listed you as a reference for x”. I’ve worked with higher-ed faculty for over 10 years and when they ghost you like this, just do what you need to do and then tell them you did it along with details about what specific thing you need from them next. If someone does respond and opts-out, then you can remove them and note that going forward. But acting as reference is a big part of being tenured faculty, they are used to this and are probably surprised your sending them an email asking for advice on it instead of just using them as a reference. If this is a situation where you need a letter or something else specific from them, you should send an email with as much info as possible (and maybe even write portions of the letter itself) with the deadline and the word “urgent” in the subject of your email. Good luck!

    4. Gracely*

      This might be a timing issue–a lot of faculty are swamped right now at the beginning of the semester, and emails about references are going to wind up on the backburner, since usually academic references require the writing of a letter. Since it sounds like you need a response today, is it possible to look up their office hours and make a call when they’re supposed to be in their office?

  19. Looking for MissGirl*

    Hello! You answered my question last week about production editor-turning into something else and said after getting your MBA, you could see other options you’d had. Would you mind sharing what other options you saw later?

    1. MissGirl*

      Hi, other than UX, I can’t remember anything off hand specifically. I do recall going through the big tech companies in my area and searching their postings and thinking I could’ve done that. I would do something similar. Identify some big companies that have a lot of different types of jobs and comb through their postings to see what things relate and what things you’re missing and how to fill the gap. Your goal may not be to find jobs to apply for initially but find possible paths and maybe get additional training. My goal was to get out of publishing because I was tired of low pay and not many options for growth so I quit and went for a full-time MBA.

  20. cubone*

    Less advice, more opinion: what do y’all think is reasonable to ask for reference checks? Thinking in terms of volume, more than specific questions.

    I just got a reference request that is a written form with 15 specific questions (and more than once includes “please be as detailed as possible”), with two days deadline. I’m… mildly annoyed (at the company, not the person who needs the reference). I’m not sure if I could’ve asked for a phone convo (they didn’t offer) but I think that would’ve taken less time. Ive done ones that were at least this extensive, but those were for grad school applications (often for social work programs). For job references, ive usually either had phone calls with <10 questions or written forms with maybe 5.

    1. alt ac*

      I have a lot of my former student workers who apply for teaching positions. I absolutely hate the questionnaires the districts send over. They’re mostly very similar, but I’ll get bunches at a time and have to sit and fill them all out. I feel much the same as you.

      I’ve started copying some of my more generic responses into a document so I can quickly reference it.

      1. cubone*

        Oh I’ve gotten the teachers college ones too. It’s rough! Usually with those I will ask for their resumes and/or if they could share with me again some highlights of our time working together/why they’re interested in pursuing these studies. I don’t want to make more work for them but usually just a quick paragraph will do and it really helps a lot in making it more specific and refreshing my mind on what to focus on.

        Love the generic responses doc idea though!

      2. Double A*

        Teaching applications have so many burdensome elements. I am hoping that one positive effect of the teaching shortage is maybe some hiring practices will be revamped (but probably not).

    2. Rayray*

      To me this just sounds like another of the insane hiring practices to come up in recent years when companies just can not make a decision on anything.

      1. cubone*

        Yeah, this a big organization with many different departments and I have looked at roles in an area different from the person I’m being a reference for. It is making me less interested in them as an employer, to be honest. The job itself isn’t entry level, but it is far from an executive level and this is just way, way too much in my opinion.

    3. Love to WFH*

      This must vary by occupation, I work in IT.

      I’d reply with my phone number and tell them to give me a call. I’ve never completed long written forms for a reference.

    4. I should really pick a name*

      Not sure what industry you’re in, but I’d consider any kind of written form to be unreasonable (unless it’s a case of the reference being given the option of a phone call or a form).

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      I always ask for a phone call, even if it wasn’t explicitly offered – I have never had anyone decline to do a call. Is it too late for you to go back and ask?

    6. Texan In Exile*

      They are asking way too much.

      I got a similar request. I emailed the requester and said I didn’t have time to complete the document, but would be glad to have a short conversation about the applicant. The requester agreed.

    7. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, a university job made me create an account as a reference and then answer a bunch of formulaic questions that didn’t relate at all to my experience with the person in question (even worse, it was a peer reference, which they had specifically requested, but the questions were as if I was the supervisor) and they sent a bunch of irritating emails too, reminding me of the short turnaround. I was so irked. They were basically holding this coworker hostage. Even worse, I actually hadn’t thought she was that great but gave her all fives because there was no opportunity for nuance anyway.

  21. fishsticks*

    Hi all, I’m in a tight spot. I took a short term contract 6 months ago that is supposed to be renewed (likely into another short term contract) in two months.

    I hate this role. My supervisor is absent and pushes all his work onto me, making me a one person department. Because of this, the whole company has learned that I am the productive person and they only address departmental issues to me. Attempts to discuss this with him and our team lead have gone nowhere. I am not treated very well and there is a lack of respect in the workplace. I found myself crying in the bathroom multiple times a week and I’ve had enough.

    The problem is this: I’m a recent graduate and this is my first post Master’s role. I have about 2-3 combined years of co-op and full-time work experience in my field, so I’m not starting from zero. But I am so frightened of being unemployed, it’s paralysing. My contract doesn’t allow me to quit before the end of my term, so if I sign onto a renewal for stability, I would be 100% stuck in the hellmouth for another 6 months to a year.

    I don’t think staying is an option, but I feel trepidation about sitting on the job market for a long time so soon after graduation. About 1-5 ideal roles in my desired field come up every week, either locally or remotely. If I am flexible, I can find more. Still, I feel like there are so many factors working against me – new graduate, working in my second language in a new region, unfortunate contract terms.

    Any advice on how to cope with a looming job search and how to get through the remaining days? I haven’t been unemployed since I was 15 and I dread it.

      1. ferrina*

        Yes, start looking now. Be flexible about what you are looking at (if you have energy for a lot of applications, do it).
        You sound deeply unhappy, but also paralyzed by your fear of change (“what if I’m unemployed?!”). Your anxiety is currently holding you in the status quo. I think part of you knows that this is happening (that’s why you included these details), but you’re not sure how to get out of it.
        Things that helped me: Looking at my bank account and knowing how long I could be unemployed for; repeating “I am worth more than this” until I believed it (and that took me a long time); having a back up option (is there a non-contracted temp option that you can do?); literally running through the worst case scenario and realizing- yeah, but it’s my life and I get to decide what is okay and not okay, and it’s not okay for my boss to treat me this badly (and your current supervisor is treating you very badly.
        This is a bad situation, and the sooner you get out of it, the better.

        1. fishsticks*

          Thanks to both of you, it helps to clarify. I am sure about leaving and have already put in a few applications and got a phone screen, so that’s something!

          The mental framing you added is very helpful, I will keep it in mind. It’s going to be a challenge but I appreciate the advice so much. Fingers crossed.

    2. Stoppin' by to chat*

      You can always quit a job. Does the contract state there is a financial consequence or something? I don’t know exactly where you work, but if you are in the US it’s likely you’re working in an at will state. But regardless, it’s your life, and you can quit! If there are that many roles in your field, definitely start looking for a new job. It’s not worth spending your waking hours crying in the bathroom at work. You can leave anytime!

      1. fishsticks*

        Thanks for the advice. Not in the US and the consequences for breaking this kind of short term contract can be court cases and financial penalties, so I have to stick it out unfortunately. Definitely an unfortunate scenario and not one I would have accepted if I had known how ridiculous things would get. In the meantime, I’m getting through the day and apply in the evenings!

    3. All Het Up About It*

      Yes! Start looking now when you have a few months on your contract. You might end up with a job offer that you can start right after this one ends. Or you might have several possible interviews and opportunities that the thought of having a gap isn’t as terrifying because you feel confident you will find something.

      Also – as this is a contract role, I am assuming it probably does not include a lot of benefits, though I understand that can vary between industries. But if your job already doesn’t offer insurance, etc., consider what sort of side hustles you could do to get extra cash if you had to have a gap between professional roles. Uber, Shipt, Grubhub, etc.

    4. Purple Cat*

      Look up what the penalty is for breaking the contract. Depending on the amount, it might be well within the range of a new company to give you as a sign-on bonus for starting before your next contract period ends. You can also make sure the terms of the contract are only 6 months, you don’t have to accept a 1-year contract. But otherwise, it really sounds like this job is worse for your mental health than any perceived work skills experience, so I would get out.

      1. fishsticks*

        Good things to think about, thank you. I’m not planning on signing another because, as you said, it taking too much from me and it really isn’t letting me develop at all. Oh well, live and learn.

    5. Hillary*

      “My contract is ending” is a very good reason to be looking and everyone will immediately understand it. I used to literally explain resume gaps with “well, I was a temp and the contract ended” – every time they nodded, usually in sympathy. Focus on the future and start applying now. If you get an offer for a permanent role now it’s 100% ok to quit your contract because you got offered a permanent role, and anyone who holds that against you is a jerk. What’s the worst they can do? Fire you because you quit?

      Also, be kind to yourself. Set aside a couple hours a week for applications, don’t spend time on job boards outside your scheduled hours. Make sure you’re spending time on what brings you joy.

      Every time you get frustrated in the remaining days remind yourself how few you have left. Try to be positive about your future and why you want what’s coming next. You’ve got this.

    6. Happy Lurker*

      Your emotional health is not worth signing on for an extension. GTFO now. Take an hour a day (your lunch time or whatnot) and start looking. This is a good time for you to go. Coordinate your new job start with your contract end date. You got this!
      I always know it’s time to leave a job when I start dreaming about going back to my most hated teenage job over staying at my current!
      Since you are the “go to” person in the department, consider reaching out to some people that you work well with and asking if they would serve as a future reference for you? Seriously, do be scared if they find out you want to leave…you do. You will not be unemployed in this day and age – good luck. Come back and keep us posted!

    7. Koala dreams*

      Could you afford to be unemployed for a while? If not, would it be possible to negotiate a notice period for the renewal? Unfortunately, with contracts like that it’s common to be stuck with periods of unemployment when things don’t line up. Is the contract periods the same in the entire industry, like school terms? If they are different, you might want to consider not renewing the contract so you are open for other jobs. If they are the same, you might need to look at other industries.

      Other than that, I agree with everyone else. Look for other jobs, make some time for a hobby or self-care, save some money if you can, even if it’s just a small amount.

  22. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    It’s my last day at my current job!

    I was really hoping that by giving a month’s notice to wrap up my projects I’d be leaving them in a good place, but everything is still off the rails unfortunately. I thought that once people knew I was leaving they would step up and start to be more proactive and independent, but here I am on my last day, with tons of IMs still asking me the most basic of questions on things I’ve explained, trained to and left documentation on.

    I did have a come to Jesus talk with my boss yesterday about holding people accountable – he doesn’t want to micromanage, but we have several new analysts that have been missing meetings, showing as offline for hours (we are all remote), not sending kickoff emails, etc. He was very receptive but is a non-confrontational sort, so I’m not sure he’ll actually follow through. Still, no longer my circus or my monkeys!

    Thanks to everyone here who offered advice throughout this process. I’m 15 years from retirement and really hoping this will be my last job switch.

    1. Artemesia*

      Look in the mirror and say ‘Oh I’m sorry, I haven’t the time to do that.’ Then ignore the follow up calls for free assistance.

      It is not your problem unless you feel a need to be responsive. I’d give them 5 questions. After that, be unavailable and don’t answer. And on the first 5 — let a day go by at least before responding.

    2. A Beth*

      Ugh, that was me when I left my job. I finally told my boss, “this is part of why I’m leaving” because the people who should have been asking questions 3 weeks prior were just realizing they had to be prepared to take up the slack.

    4. Purple Cat*

      Shall you be changing your name to NEW Gig Data Analyst?
      Wishing you best success in the new role.

  23. Anononon*

    I’m so bummed. A week ago, I got an email asking to set up an initial phone interview sometime this week. I sent the times I was available only like an hour later, and I never heard back. I sent one follow up, but nothing. Ugh.

    1. Rayray*

      I hate when this happens! It’s super rude.

      I feel like whenever I had those ones where you emailed back times you were available , it never worked out. I remember one time emailing back three times and then got asked if I could do a totally different time. I wish more recruiters/companies would use services that actually just let the candidate schedule their time. Maybe something similar to signup genius.

      1. Anononon*

        Yeah, like I would understand (but still be annoyed) if I got ghosted post-interview. But don’t reach out to me to schedule something and then disappear!

      2. All Het Up About It*

        A doodle poll is so simple and free for even smaller companies! I’ve used that method for scheduling times with prospective student workers and it was perfect. It’s so much simpler, especially if you have multiple candidates you are emailing.

        Sorry you are dealing with this!

    2. Forkeater*

      This happened to me this week too, with two different companies! I posted it downthread before reading your post. One job I was ambivalent about but the second would be an amazing move. It’s so weird!

      1. Anononon*

        At least I’m not alone!

        Yeah, I’m generally happy at my current place, so I’m only very casually looking, but this could have been a really good career and salary move, so I’m bummed.

  24. I quit my job*

    I quit my job and gave a long notice period, thinking it would help with the transition, but honestly it made no difference. Oh well, it won’t be my problem soon. Just wanted to share though, because before I always thought it would be classy to give more than two weeks, and in my case it hasn’t made things easier in the way I would have expected.

    1. MizChiffon*

      Thank you so much for sharing this! I put in my notice this Monday and gave my last day as next Friday. I was feeling a little bad about not giving them more time, but I was pretty sure they would just drag out the transition and my misery.

    2. Love to WFH*

      I gave 3 weeks notice once. Never again! I was bored and so checked-out that third week that it was torture.

      It’s not like they’re going to hire and train someone within 3 or 4 weeks anyway.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve had great experiences with giving long notice, but it definitely doesn’t always benefit the employee or employer.

    5. Roy G. Biv*

      I made the mistake once of giving a long notice (6 weeks) notice because it lined up with an onboarding schedule at my new company. I also figured it would give Old Job plenty of time to hire my replacement and for me to train them. Of course they only hired a person one week before my end date, and gave me two days to train them.

      Two weeks is plenty of notice.

  25. Glaceon*

    I’m in the middle of a job search, and this week I applied to a job that looks nearly perfect- amazing benefits, good pay, etc and got called for an interview yesterday! It’s for a marijuana dispensary (weed is legal for both medical & recreational use in my state) but my concern is how will this look on a resume in a couple years? It’s an accounting job for their corporate office. I guess I’m worried there’s still a stigma surrounding it. That said, we’ll see if I even get an offer. My parents believe it would give some future employers a bad impression of me.

    1. OyHiOh*

      My sense, living in a state that has legal medical/recreational is that positions requiring a MED card (marijuana enforcement division) have more stigma than those that don’t. When I was job searching a couple years ago, I applied for a couple office manager positions on grow farms that did require MED cards for employment, and some corporate office positions that did not. But the conversation around town seems to imply that if you end up in a role with a MED, you’re probably kinda locking yourself into that industry at least until federal law changes.

    3. Purple Cat*

      I think it’s going to be fine.
      Like most things in this space, people’s views are evolving. You will run into some pearl-clutching curmudgeons, but for the most part you should be fine. AND even though I would have absolutely no concerns no matter what your role, I think being in Finance (as am I) is also a type of shield for you. You’re *just* running numbers, not pushing the product.

    5. Irish girl*

      I dont think it woul be a problem as like you said its an accounting job. Do people look down on a person who works for a gun company in that position? Or someone who works for Philip Morris? You could always frame the work being more intresting and a challenge due to the legalities around it as a plus.

      1. Peachtree*

        Yes, they do – I have friends who work at British American Tobacco and I do think they are selling out from their values, even though they are in legal. Tobacco causes so much harm (as do guns!) that it’s a real point of contention for me. I’ve been contacted by Phillip Morris recruiters and could not do it.

        However weed has a different cache for a lot of people and I think we are moving in a different direction in how we view weed v how we view tobacco. From my POV we are now aware of how awful the health impacts of tobacco are but are more aware of some of the benefits of legal weed. So the OP should be assured that they are quite different industries to the ones you’ve suggested here.

    7. Xenia*

      It’s legal, it’s a corporate role, you should be fine. But I know Allison’s gotten questions like this from people who worked in odd places before—I think one in particular was for a place that did adult movies and the person who wrote in did their admin? I’ll see if I can track down the link.

    8. Generic Name*

      In Colorado, those are seen as normal jobs. I’d ask about how pay and taxes work since the industry is cash based.

    9. JustaTech*

      If it’s a big enough place to have a corporate office I’d say you’re fine.

      It’s the shady, fly-by-night places that will do you no good, but it wouldn’t matter what industry it was if it was sketchy. My brother worked at a couple of perfectly fine (for a small business) dispensaries and one All Bees All The Time place (he had to rent his apartment from his boss, and when he got paid in counterfeit bills his boss both told him not to talk to the Feds and said he still had to pay rent, even though he hadn’t actually been paid that week).
      But any place that is hiring accountants is going to be on the up-and-up.

      1. superduper*

        I would think probably not for most jobs but might impact future plans depending on your goals. For example, if you wanted to eventually work for a really conservative employer, places that treat addiction, move to a place where it’s still illegal etc.

  26. Dr. of Laboratoria*

    Something happened to one of my coworkers that I have been thinking about a lot and that will probably also happen to me and another coworker.

    We are salaried employees and we work in a clinical laboratory. We’re open 5 days a week, but are also open on Sat/Sundays for scheduled appointments. We are also open on holidays for scheduled patients. For weekends and holidays we have an “on call” list. Our lab work is such that we have to have a person here every day whether or not there are patients on the schedule.

    An interesting thing happened this past holiday season. My coworker had to come in on a holiday for about 2 hours when there were no patients scheduled. They were the only one here because as I said, our lab work is of a nature that we have to have someone here to do lab-related things every day.

    They are salary and they told them that they had to take PTO the rest of that holiday – so 6 hours.

    That just seems so weird to me. You’re not paying us any extra to be here on weekends and holidays because we’re salary… why should we have to pay you (the org) our PTO to cover those hours?

    Anyone else experience this as a salaried employee?

    1. Colette*

      If I were your coworker, I would then expect to take another day off as the holiday day. Otherwise that’s a terrible policy.

      Well, it’s probably a terrible policy either way.

      1. Dr. of Laboratoria*

        Yes, that’s usually how we do it. Whatever hours you work weekends & holidays, you take that back during the week.

        We have to use PTO for a holiday if we don’t work it, but before if you worked a holiday, you banked the entire 8 hours, no matter how long you worked to take back later in the week. Since we’re salaried, we didn’t have to out in any PTO for hours not worked. That seemed to change now – which I think is terrible.

      1. Dr. of Laboratoria*

        Right? That’s what I don’t understand. We work a weekend/holiday, then we take those hours back during the following week. I don’t understand nickle & diming PTO on a holiday.

    3. Anon for This*

      How was the time scheduled? If it was for 8 hours and coworker only stayed for two, that makes sense. If it was scheduled for two hours, I don’t understand why they would need to use PTO for the rest. If you get scheduled like this, bring a book and sit there for the 8 scheduled hours.

      1. Dr. of Laboratoria*

        Time isn’t scheduled, per say – it all depends on the set up & testing we need to do. We may have to be in the lab by 7am, or perhaps we don’t have to be in till 8 or 9am. Someimes we come in at 7am, then have to come back in the afternoon.
        The hours can vary hugely. For example, I’m on tomorrow – tomorrow I only have an hours worth of set up to do. On Sunday, I will be here for 5-6 hours. Sometimes the lab has stuff going on that takes you 8-10 hours. It depends on what you get stuck with.

        1. Dr. of Laboratoria*

          The funny thing is that a few years ago, they made this position salary because they were paying out way too much overtime because sometimes we would clock a full day and half or two days of extra pay.

    4. ferrina*

      That’s weird. Did everyone else get a holiday, but they had to use PTO for the time that they weren’t working on the holiday? That’s either super shady, or a really lazy admin set up that doesn’t care about people.

      1. Dr. of Laboratoria*

        Everyone else – the clinic staff – that would work on the holiday, are hourly employees. So they would have to cover the holiday with PTO. Since I did not work that holiday, I would have to cover it with PTO. (Side note: It’s great to have to pay for 5 holidays out of your PTO bank said no one ever).

        But since we’re salary, we get paid a flat rate – whether we work 30 hours or 50 a week. I don’t understand why a holiday is different than any other day we’re on call.

    5. anonymous73*

      That’s bullshit. Unless you get a regular day off during the week for working on a Saturday/holiday, then no they shouldn’t have to use any PTO to cover those 6 hours. I’m salaried, and we get every federal holiday where I work but some are considered floaters. So if you want to work on that holiday, you can then use your holiday time off for another random day. If I were your co-worker, I’d push back HARD on that one.

    6. Girasol*

      I’ve seen where the person coming in for awhile on holiday and then going home takes the whole day as PTO/holiday, but then the manager offers comp time – time out of office on a paid day – in exchange. A good manager does so generously, like at a rate of two hours comp time per hour of holiday work, or even a full day off in trade for holiday time missed, treating holiday work like it’s a really big favor done by the employee.

    7. Irish girl*

      What does the company handbook say? Why would the holiday be treated differently than a weekend since you woul have been getting the holiday regardless? Does your state have any rules around comp time? Also are you sure your job should be exempt?

      1. SofiaDeo*

        This! The only salaried jobs I’ve ever seen in a lab were the Director. The secretaries, the techs, all were hourly.

  27. Luna Lovegood*

    A former coworker recently asked me to provide a reference for her. I wasn’t her supervisor, but I managed a project she contributed to. She tried hard and thought she was great at the work, but
    …that wasn’t quite the case. I certainly wouldn’t hire her, particularly for the kind of work we did together.
    The thing is, she has a difficult personality, and I was more patient with her than most of our other coworkers were. I’m fairly certain that she doesn’t have any better alternatives for references. I have a hard time saying “I’m not the best person for this” when I suspect I’d actually give a kinder and more balanced (though certainly not glowing) reference than most of the other people she’s worked with. I won’t lie and put prospective managers in a bad position either, though. Is a truthful, mediocre reference better than no reference or a probably worse one from someone else?

    1. Love to WFH*

      I refuse to be a reference if I can’t give a good one. If I can’t say, “yes, I’d hire them again”, I pass.

    2. ferrina*

      What a thoughtful question! I’d give her the option, but with a little gentler context:
      “I am willing to be a reference, but I probably won’t be the strongest reference for you. I’ll need to say that we haven’t worked together much [assuming that’s true], and employers usually want references that can speak to more nuances.” If you think it will help, you can add “I can give a quick overview of the strengths I saw, such as XYZ and the weaknesses I saw, such as ABC.” Depending on her personality, this might help her realize what message you’ll be sharing (though if she’s volatile or might react poorly, don’t add this- just say no).
      Also, were you giving her feedback throughout the project about where her work was falling short? If not, make a note to do that in the future so you’re not in this position again.

      1. Luna Lovegood*

        Thank you, this is really helpful! I did give some feedback, but she didn’t ever incorporate it. My boss allowed her to “help” on the project because she was interested and wouldn’t allow us to take a firmer stance, so we ended up just not using a lot of her work. I pointed out that this wasn’t really a kindness because it let the coworker waste her time and think she was doing fine. It just felt too mean (and time-consuming) to tear her work apart every time when the response was “well, I just prefer to do it this way” with an oblivious smile. I guess I should have been more persistent.

        1. Oui oui*

          I think you could mention that you didn’t actually use much of what she did — possibly implying due to forces beyond your control — so you aren’t able to fairly discuss her work for a reference.

    3. Alice*

      Tough situation. It’s water under the bridge now, but how did she end up thinking that she was great at the work when that wasn’t the case? I don’t work in a setting with project managers so I don’t know whether developmental feedback is normally given by project managers. Kudos for being patient and kind and balanced but was no one in this situation giving the coworker accurate feedback?

    4. LaDonna*

      I would say exactly what you wrote, “I’m not the best person for this, but best of luck in your job search.” You also weren’t her manager, and working on 1 project together (unless it were a several year long project) doesn’t really warrant reference material IMHO.

    5. Don’t put metal in the science oven*

      If it’ll fly, can you just say you have a standing policy that you don’t give references for anyone?

    6. Rara Avis*

      Somewhat different type of reference, but I was once asked by a student to write a reference for a summer program. He had FAILED my class. I pushed back and recommended that he ask someone else — anyone else — but his mother insisted that she wanted me to do it. So I wrote an honest reference. Never heard if he got into the program or not. If she doesn’t have other options, yours might be her best option.

    7. New Mom*

      Was this person fired from your current job? And is she having a hard time finding a new role? Sometimes employers have rules about allowing employees to act as a reference for legal reasons so if you think she would react really badly to you saying no, you could say it’s an employer policy?

      I’m curious, how did she react when you were working with her and she received constructive criticism on her work?

      1. Luna Lovegood*

        She left for another job that apparently didn’t work out, so I don’t think I have a legal reason to say no.

        She did not respond well to constructive criticism. When I asked her to do something differently and tried to explain why, she either disagreed or nodded and continued to do it the same way. When some of my colleagues pushed a little harder, she responded pretty aggressively. As I mentioned in a comment above, she volunteered to help with our project and my manager refused to take her off it, so we ended up just not using most of her work. Terrible management, but I didn’t get anywhere when I pushed back.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      There’s no way in heck I would act as a reference for this person.

      Much younger me referred someone who became a disaster. It was a huge learning experience and I became excessively cautious about referring people. My go-to became, “I don’t give references for people.” The thinking behind this position is that I could break my own rule if there was an extraordinary situation.

      Years later someone under me as a supervisor wanted a reference. This person was a capable person, but in the wrong line of work. Fortunately, at the time of their leaving, chaotic events A, B and C happened. (The events were brought on by this person.) So I simply said because of the chaos, I did not feel I could give a fair assessment of their work.

  28. 20 years experience*

    I’ve been with my family owned company for 15 years. For the past 10, my supervisor-the GM and the owner’s son, has been a state politician, so there were whole chunks of time-months at a time- where he was gone. Without having any real authority, I’ve always kept things running. I have always made it clear I wanted to be the GM one day, and have always been led to believe that was a real possibility, but also that it would be years away as my boss was staying put. People in the community pretty much think I run the place already.

    I am, by far, the highest performer. I did reduce my hours during the pandemic (I was a good news update), but made clear if my bosses circumstances changed, I would want the opportunity to apply for his position. Despite reducing hours, I picked up twice the work, increased our revenues by a whole lot, and generally kicked ass all this past pandemic, often times taking on far more than my own responsibilities and rocking them. I can run this place, I have 20 years experience and that has always been my goal. I can run this place.

    Anyway, our GM’s political career is ending, his choice. He announced to our office Monday he is leaving our business. And his local political director-whose experience in our business is coming in the building to meet our boss-is our new GM. He starts Monday. He literally has zero years of experience. With a straight face, boss told me I would need to help him learn our business. With a straight face he talked about this guy being the “future of our business,” and said he’s “been advocating with Owner for sometime for Guy, and really had to sell Owner on hiring him.” I am floored. I am embarrassed. I am insulted. I am furious. I feel foolish. I know I have to leave, that’s very obvious. And I’m not really sure I’m asking a question here other than WTF? Wow.

      1. 20 years experience*

        If I met with the owner he’d honestly probably halt the whole thing, but why bother? I now know where I stand, and that’s powerful.

        And yes, I can totally start my own business and compete with them. Once I pick my jaw up off the floor, that’s what I’ll do.

        I honestly think I do my job so damn well that they are afraid to move me up and lose me in my current position.

    2. Alice*

      Good luck in your job search (or starting your own company) and I hope that you are a Friday good news update again in a year or so.

    3. pancakes*

      That has to sting. Be mad, but try not to feel personally insulted. Cronyism and politics have a long, long, long history of being interrelated.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. No doubt in my mind this one bites. These people are not who you thought they were. It’s okay to believe them, this is who they really are. Many people who have been shafted in this manner have gone on to launch their own biz and become outstanding in their field/area. From what you say here, you have everything in place to go do that. Since they turned the tables on you, they have opened the door for you to leave and do your own thing. Your loyalty here is over.

        Anger is a bunch of excess energy. Run 5 miles every day, set up a punching bag in your home and use it, do whatever you need to do to burn up that energy so you can be on top of your game and undistracted in your new biz.

        I’d looove to hear you come back at some point and tell us how you are just rockin’ it with your new biz.

    4. Artemesia*

      Family owned businesses. The worst. I could tell you many tales of people I know similarly shafted. e.g. paid in stock then fired the day before the stock vests after doing all the heavy lifting to get the family on line business set up on line.

      I hope you can find something soon and I would not be concerned about two weeks notice. You are rightly furious — not just that you didn’t get the job, but that you were not considered for it.

      1. 20 years experience*

        That’s the thing too. If I’d have applied and been beaten out, I think I could handle that. But not even being told the position was coming open and given no opportunity? Nope.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      New Guy just got handed a job he doesn’t know a thing about by his friend whose dad owns the company.

      Help him within the scope of your work, decide if he’s worth it, or even whether he’ll last. Could be that something else will come along for him, or he won’t work out, and that might help solidify your case with the Owner to fill the position more appropriately.

      Or you’ll have found a better position by then.

    8. the cat's ass*

      Oh, yuck, I’m so sorry, that sucks. Family businesses are the WORST. Hope you eat their lunch with your new business/job.

    9. Purple Cat*

      Wow, I’m really sorry this happened to you.
      I hope you are able to get your ducks in a row and go elsewhere or start your own business quickly. “family” businesses can be the absolute worst in this sense.

    10. Rosemary*

      Wow. That is awful. I agree with the advice to GTFO as soon as you can and move on the bigger and better things. And, if it were me, take some pleasure in watching it burn to the ground. The owner is a fool for allowing this to happen. And it baffles me that someone who had invested so much into building their business over 20+ would be so willing to just hand it over to someone with no experience. My father ran the business started by his father for many years. He always said if one of children or nieces/nephews were interested in taking over the business someday, they would first have to put in time getting the necessary experience – ideally at another company in the same industry. No way would he risk the business that his father had built by bringing on someone just because they were family. In fact, when it came time for him to retire, the decision was made to sell the business rather than “pass it on” to the younger generation (who at that point had no experience in the industry.

    11. RagingADHD*

      Unfortunately, this is what happens when longtime employees go above-and-beyond to an extreme degree, for a very long time, based on the hopes of being recognized and rewarded “someday.”

      There is no such thing as someday. If your work isn’t recognized and rewarded all along, it never will be.

      I am so sorry. You got exploited.

    12. Vermont Green*

      I suggest you quit ASAP, and, if you need money agree to train the new guy for a *hefty* consultancy fee. Meanwhile, you have a little lead time to set up your own business.

  29. Cat Mouse*

    So something I’ve been wondering about. My first boss when I joined the engineering field was fascinated and surprised by my varied work history. The theatre jobs were understandable, I switched from working in the arts to engineering. What she was most surprised by were the high school/early college jobs: retail, office assistant, etc. She had only ever worked jobs in her chosen field, and her son (who was a high school senior) hadn’t worked except over that summer as an intern at her office.

    I’m thinking from what I’ve been reading that it isn’t that unusual to have these varied jobs (and by this point they were not ony resume, but came up in discussions), but I was really second guessing myself for awhile. So I guess I’m wondering how odd it is to only have worked on one specific field, even as a starter job?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I can speak to my experience. My father’s an engineer, and so am I. So from an early age I was messing about with soldering irons, reading his industry magazines, learning to program the first-generation home computers – and pulling chips out of sockets, too. Etc.

      I was fortunate enough that I could pick and choose what to do for part-time work, and so other than babysitting in 7th and 8th grade, all of my work was related to an engineering career. If you’re a high-GPA high school student who already knows that you want to go into engineering or an engineering-adjacent field, there are likely targeted job programs in your town for exactly that kind of student. I worked for the local electric utility for 2 summers, and then on weekends during the school year we had intensive tours of all the other companies who participated in the program.

      Now I don’t think I would have been dumbfounded that you worked retail at HotTopic in high school like your boss, but if he was like me, his work experience was totally in line with his future career.

    2. PostalMixup*

      I mean, what are the odds that her son will go into her field? If/when he doesn’t, he’ll have done the same thing as you. I would assume that many/most teenagers who work do so in fields they don’t stay in. My college job was essentially admin/receptionist work at a construction company…I’m now a laboratory scientist. Nearly everyone I knew who worked in college was in retail or a server. Many of my friends worked at the local grocery store in high school.

      1. Cat Mouse*

        He had already been accepted to VT’s engineering, but in a different branch of engineering. She was an interesting boss that had just started her own company and I was her 2nd employee so not the only thing I wondered about.

    3. Eden*

      I don’t think it’s odd wither way, but it probably speaks to some privilege to have only worked in your field. People who need money more at an earlier age are naturally more likely to take those unrelated jobs compared to those who can afford to focus only on school until they get a job in their intended field. On average anyway, not necessarily true for every person of course.

      I *do* think it’s weird that she was actually surprised you had worked outside the field though! Being shocked that someone may have worked retail at some point is a lot more clueless than just not having done it yourself.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Yes, this. Even if there are paid jobs/interships in your field for high school or early college students, knowing about them also requires some connections/social capital.

        Taking retail/service industry jobs to earn money is extremely common for high school students, so it’s very odd to me that she brought this up. I wouldn’t blink twice at a lawyer/doctor/engineer/other high prestige professional who told me they waited tables in high school.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! I grew up in a very lower middle to middle middle class area with many blue & pink collar workers. Even the kids with high GPAs & clear academic goals had similar kinds of jobs in my high school. We did have a program for kids interested in going into health care, but even a lot of those kids earned their spending money (& college money) by working in retail or food service or those kinds of jobs.

        I knew one girl who worked as a dental hygienist. To this day, it strikes me as an odd job for a HS student.

      3. tangerineRose*

        “it probably speaks to some privilege to have only worked in your field. ” This. I worked in fast food for a while while in college. I worked because I needed to, and this was a job I could get where I could also go to college.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I agree. I think her comment reveals a sheltered life with limited outside experiences.

    4. Haha Lala*

      It’s not weird at all. Most people have random jobs in high school/college before they have enough experience or knowledge to get into a specific field.

      Your boss might not realize it, but that’s definitely coming from a privileged perspective. She must have had connections, or the option not to work, in order to only work in one given field. And she’s passing the same to her son now. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but she really should realize that’s not how the majority of people operate.

    5. Colette*

      It’s very normal to have a variety of jobs as a student, and even later. Your boss had weird expectations.

    6. My Brain Is Exploding*

      My career was in health care and my pre-health care jobs (school thru college, so part-time or summer jobs) included: retail dress shop, camp counselor, accounts payable department, secretary, city file clerk, park district sports ref, and fast food. I didn’t work any health care related jobs until I was in grad school.

    7. Meg*

      I think its super strange to have *only* worked in one specific field for your entire career. Most people I’ve met have done small job in high school/college like retail, food service, etc. But maybe its a privilege thing?

    8. ferrina*

      It depends a lot on family culture and socio-economic status. In my family, we worked whatever job we could, and we had to work to afford anything (such as, food). But I’ve met a lot of people with the financial luxury to choose not to work in high school/college. And if you’ve got that luxury and the resources to intern and otherwise access your chosen field, why wouldn’t you go that route? And it’s not uncommon for these folks to be surrounded by peers who have had similar experiences, so they don’t realize that their experience isn’t always the norm.
      There are obviously a lot of exceptions on both sides, but this has broadly been my experience.

      1. ferrina*

        I grew up low-income and I work in a very white collar field, and people with my background are not the norm.

    9. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I have had a pretty varied career history (science camp counselor, teaching assistant, research intern for various unrelated lab groups, social media/marketing, bakery assistant, luxury retail, and even fiction editor). My undergraduate and graduate degrees are in environmental science and ecology.

      At one point I was considering going into engineering, then zoo science, and now in science education. I wouldn’t say that it’s particularly odd to only puruse jobs in a very specific career field, but it is rare. The dabbling and experimenting with different kinds of jobs is how I think most people work out what career is the right fit for them. I also think those transferrable skills and interesting stories are how I’ve been able to move between several different roles in my last 10 years of professional and para-professional experiences.

      It might also be interesting to consider the priviledge that often allows a person to only work in their desired field – do they have family providing them with access to highly-specific internships at an earlier stage than most people? Do they have the financial resources to choose unpaid internships in their field over paid internships in a semi-related or unrelated field? Obviously there are more questions to ask from that angle, but it’s worth considering. From what I have seen on hiring committees I’ve been part of, underrepresented groups are the ones most likely to have “non-traditional” or straightforward paths to specific career roles.

    10. Hlao-roo*

      Another engineer here to say I worked at a summer camp in high school. I (luckily) had engineering-related internships all my summers in college, and I’ve been working as an engineer ever since.

      Thinking about my friend group in college: one friend worked at a summer camp in high school and college, one worked at a restaurant in high school and picked up a few hours here and there in college (mostly over breaks), two more did not have any jobs before picking up work in labs on campus/engineering internships. So overall a pretty even split between “typical” high school/early college jobs of restaurant/retail/summer camp and “I’ve known I wanted to be an engineer since forever and will only ever work as an engineer.”

    11. Hotdog not dog*

      I don’t think it’s odd. I’ve worked in retail, food service, child care, sales, recycling center, farm labor, insurance, manufacturing, and probably a few more things I’m forgetting. Some were part time, some full-time, and some were side jobs. (I’m a pragmatist, if the bills need to be paid and it’s something I am able to do, I will take the job!) My “official” business is finance (currently compliance).
      The fascinating thing is how much skill crossover there is between “unskilled” jobs I’ve had and my current job. All the soft skills- how to communicate, collaborate, manage my time, learn new tasks- came mostly from those roles.

    12. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I think it is odd and I’ve seen it mostly in people who came from a well-off enough family who could afford to have their kid just studying and going to enrichment things during summer so that by the time they got a job, it was likely in their field of studies because it was an internship.

      I had a lot of jobs. My kid has had a few jobs already and doesn’t turn up his nose at any opportunity to do some work and get money in his pocket. Kiddo’s first was lifting hay behind the baler on a farm for $40 for each afternoon’s hard work in heat at 12. He was so proud when I picked him up from that. He’s now in college w/ environmental science.

    13. Dragonfly7*

      The only people I know who’ve only ever worked in my industry started in my higher ed department as work study students.

    15. Kay*

      I’m hoping you’ve had a long and storied work history since your first boss, because the only instance I could see myself saying what your boss did is in my head when I felt like “Bless your heart” wouldn’t put me high enough on the crappy human list.

      I get privilege can be insulating, but if this was anything recent then a boss not realizing that exclaiming surprise at a varied work history for a young person screams tone deaf is.. oooff.. Its not like interning at dad’s law firm is the norm..

    16. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I have two siblings and between the three of us, we had at least seven majors in college. I couldn’t even guess at how many minors. Even if we had decided as teenagers only to do jobs in our selected fields, we all changed what fields we wanted to go into at least once! I think the idea that a 17 year old is going to know exactly what they want to do for their entire adult career is kind of short sighted. Yes, there are some people who do it and it works for them, but it’s by no means the norm and you’re not unusual for having had jobs outside your field while you were young.

    17. AdequateArchaeologist*

      I feel like it also speaks to having connections (usually family…) in your chosen field. My sister is an engineer, we have family members who are engineers, they were able to help her find internships etc. I’m an archaeologist. If I were to ask family members for help finding archaeology jobs it would be nothing but crickets and maybe an uncle or two offering up an extra shovel.

      That being said we’ve both worked “weird” jobs when we were starting out. Sister went from engineering temp job/internship to being a line cook at IHOP during the pandemic (convoluted string of events, but she enjoyed it). I’ve done barista jobs, childcare jobs, and even worked as a bulk printer , while also doing archaeology work. If anything I think the people who only do work in their field are very privileged, have connections the average person doesn’t, and are frankly anomalies. Or just have really weird luck.

      (Side note: I have strong feelings about this because I have run into am inordinate number of people who act like me taking these side jobs means I’m a lesser person because I’m not “committed” to my chosen field. When in reality these people have parents or spouses propping them up financially, when I don’t. So I guess it really all comes back to privilege? And/or luck.)

  30. Mbarr*

    Last week I mentioned I was interviewing co-op students last week. To provide some clarity (and an update):
    – In Canada, university students are well paid. https://uwaterloo.ca/co-operative-education/about-co-op/co-op-earnings
    – We held our interviews yesterday. They went relatively well – there were only 2 that didn’t incite any interest for us.
    – There was one candidate my manager and I disagreed over. The person was blatantly nervous. You could hear the quaver in their voice. I liked them. They had the skills that we need (but they aren’t our top choice). My manager’s concerns are that the candidate won’t speak up for themselves, or be able to advocate for our team. My thought is that 1) this is the point of getting them workplace experience and 2) I wouldn’t put them in a position where they’d be forced to represent our entire team, simply because they don’t have the experience/training to do so adequately.

    I need to rank our candidates next (it’s weird, but it’s part of the recruitment process for the university linked above). My manager and I agree on our top 2 choices, but it’s the third choice that’s tripping me up. She keeps telling me it’s up to me, and I know she means it. But I’m struggling with the whole, “I want to rank the nervous candidate higher than my manager’s preferred candidate.” (My manager’s preferred candidate seemed capable, but I literally barely remember their interview cause they didn’t have much personality… Which I’m afraid is biasing me against them.)

    1. Colette*

      Are they reporting to you? If so, I’d go with your third choice, not your manager’s third choice.

    2. Distractinator*

      Absolutely go with your own opinion. That’s the whole reason you get to have a list of your own and not a list made by your manager. And by the way you’ve phrased it, it probably won’t make a difference in eventual outcome (if you’re hiring one position and you’re debating whether NervousCandidate is your 3rd or 4th choice – I think what you mean by manager’s preferred candidate, is the candidate they would prefer to rank 3rd, not their preferred candidate to actually hire, right?) Seems like this is a perfectly reasonable place to practice making your own judgment calls.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      Go with your preferred candidate. Someone being nervous in an interview is not reflective of how they’ll be in a work setting. (Even in public speaking.) If you have any references or other materials that give you a sense of how the person would respond, you can use those as backup for your assessment/ if your manager asks questions, but I think you should trust your gut.

      I had a similar scenario recently – two candidates where one was very polished and charismatic, and the other one was soft spoken and less convincing. But everything about the second candidate’s profile led me to feel like they were an overall better fit, and their references were glowing. My hiring committee was surprised I liked the second candidate more, but trusted my assessment, hired candidate #2, and they’ve been outstanding in the role.

    4. RagingADHD*

      So, your manager is concerned about having employees who are too timid to speak up or advocate for themselves.

      And here you are, hesitating over expressing a minor disagreement about your third-choice candidate, even after your manager expressly told you it’s up to you.

      What’s going on with that?

  31. rosy*

    I’m looking for some advice as a new manager. My direct report, Joan, has been a Llama Groomer for 20+ years as an independent contractor. She came to us via referral and does great work – after some shuffling with the budget she is now a salaried employee rather than a contractor, though part-time. Our company recently received government grant money to hire interns on 6-month contracts. So we hired a new intern, Peggy, who is interested in entering the Llama Grooming field. The whole point of the internship is to help young people develop professional skills and learn more about a field (Peggy will be going to school for Llama Grooming in the fall, but has developed her skills as a freelancer/in other internships). Both are reporting in to me but I tried to take some of the more menial tasks off Joan’s plate and give them to Peggy, with direct instructions that Joan should mentor Peggy, i.e. Joan still has final approval but can give guidance and feedback to Peggy to help her develop. Instead, Joan has reacted very negatively, seeing Peggy as a threat to her job, refusing to give feedback and rushing to claim every Llama Grooming task even if it doesn’t fit with her workload. She’s sending me aggressive Slacks questioning why we hired Peggy at all. The overall quality of Joan’s work appears to be slipping and lately she seems to struggle with any feedback or edits. In past contracting roles Joan has been the sole Llama Groomer working for a firm, so I think she’s used to her word being held as gospel and no one ever asking for something different. My boss and I feel that Joan may no longer be a good fit for where we want our company’s Llama Grooming to go. But Peggy is feeling bored and frustrated in her internship, wants to know why it seems like Joan hates her, and my boss is non confrontational and thinks it will resolve on its own. Any advice?

    1. Observer*

      It won’t resolve on it’s own.

      You need your boss’ backing to handle this. Start by talking to Joan and lay out what you need from her. If things don’t improve, make it clear to her that her job is on the line. And then HOLD HER TO IT.

    2. Colette*

      You need to talk to Joan and make it clear that she is responsbile for Peggy’s success – assigning her work and mentoring her is part of Joan’s job, and if she doesn’t do it, that is a serious problem.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree with Colette.

        If you haven’t had a conversation with Joan where you’ve reminded her that training interns is a job duty that has been assigned to her and that refusal to participate in job duties comes with serious consequences, you need to do that. You can also mention that by taking on more work than she’s able to handle, she’s delivering poor quality work that will impact her reputation in the long run, because that’s also important for her to be aware of.

        Overall, the fact that you hired Peggy is not and never was a threat to Joan’s job. But Joan’s reaction to Peggy being hired IS a threat to her job unless she can rein it in.

      2. New Jack Karyn*

        Did Joan know when she got hired that she’d be responsible for an intern’s success? Mentoring is not within everyone’s skill set. Sounds like Peggy got dropped on Joan–she may not be reacting well to it, but she hasn’t been set up for success, either.

    3. Artemesia*

      It won’t resolve on its own. But Joan may be salvageable. I think you need to be as direct with her as you are here. Lay out her role, her mentorship expectations with Peggy and why you do internships. Be very clear what you need to see from her and the negative things you are seeing. Be positive in your expectations she can change and get the job done, but be very concrete about what that looks like.

      And know that you may need to let her go if this doesn’t work.

    4. Hiring Mgr*

      It’s hard to know all the details but as a part timer, does Joan actually have the bandwidth to be training/mentoring someone brand new? Not to justify Joan’s attitude, but I could see not loving suddenly having this dumped on you

      Should you as the manager be mentoring Peggy instead?

    5. DinosaurWrangler*

      Another angle on this: I changed careers in my mid 30s. After I’d been in my “new”profession for over 25 years, there have been at least two instances, in different companies, where a newish, younger person was hired, and it was my responsibility to bring them up to speed. In each of these companies I had several years and an excellent track record, stellar reviews, etc. But in both cases, within 12-18 months after the new person started, my position was eliminated. Can you say age discrimination, boys and girls?

      Both of these companies were self-insured. I’m convinced that it became too pricy to insure me and my spouse, so they just did a “restructure” and booted me out.

      They also eliminated several other over-50 people, and 1 or 2 under 30 – just enough to show it really wasn’t about age. (/s). But you won’t convince me. Yes, age discrimination is illegal, but try to prove it.

      I’m not justifying Joan’s behavior in the least, but the fact that she appears to feel threatened isn’t just due to her overactive imagination.

      The type of things that happened to me have happened to many other people.

    6. Koala dreams*

      Yes, you need to intervene. It’s not fair to leave the intern to fight on her own. You should also look into if it’s possible to find another person to supervise the intern, for example yourself or a full time employee.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Joan probably has no idea what the overall plan is here.
      It sounds like no one has taken the time to explain to her that her job is secure.
      Additionally she has been given a quasi-supervisory position where she does all the work and has no ability to fire anyone. This stands alone as reason to quit.
      It sounds like Joan is not getting extra pay for supervising this person’s work but she is responsible for some (most?) of the oversight of the work. Did she even have say in which intern was hired??? Yet another good reason to quit.
      Yeah, she’s ticked, of course. In her mind this company strung her along for 20 years as an independent contractor. Now all of the sudden there is an intern who just gets handed everything she always wanted. At this point, most people would be ticked. See the above story about someone who worked for a family run business for 20 years in effort to become GM. And then, in turnabout, the job was offered to someone else. People who stay loyal to jobs do expect considerations in return and rightfully so.

      I am not sure you can apologize hard enough for all that is wrong here. And I am not sure if her frame of mind would allow her to accept such an apology.
      Sit her down for a very long conversation. Remedy all that is wrong here, answer her concerns, apologize then ask her if she thinks she can live with this new setting. Be braced for the NO answer.

      Meanwhile your intern is learning all the wrong things about workplaces. It could be that they quit in addition to Joan leaving/being dismissed.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        The LW said that Joan had been *an* independent contractor for 20 years *not* that she had been an independent contractor for this particular company for 20 years – it sounds like she was referred tot his company for work, they liked her work, and were able to get her an employee position. I read it as independent contractor = in business, takes on clients, rather than hired through a temp agency.

        I *would* talk to Joan to see what’s up. It may be that she’s afraid she’s training her replacement. It may be that she’s unprepared for the shift from independent contractor to employee – a contractor wouldn’t be given an intern to supervise without it being written into their contract, but employees can be assigned new tasks by their employer. She may not like the change in autonomy over her own work duties. It may be that she does good practical work on short timescales, but has difficulties with other workplace dynamics. Clarify the role and expectations for interns. If this resolves it, great. If problems persist, the next step would be a formal PIP.

        In addition, I’d take over the supervision of the intern regardless of what happens, because whatever is going on it’s not fair to put her in the middle of someone else’s performance issues.

        1. rosy*

          Yes, Joan has been an independent contractor in her field for 20 years, but only doing work for my employer for about a year (she reached out to us when mutual connections on LinkedIn saw we were looking for Llama Groomers). She only became a salaried employee about 3 months ago and continues to do work for other clients in addition to us.
          My boss and I are going to have a chat next week about how to proceed – thanks for the advice and I think we will have a long chat with Joan about her workload and how Peggy is with us to learn. I am managing Peggy and mentoring her on general work norms, but as I’m not a Llama Groomer we are trying to get Joan to provide some mentoring for Peggy on the specifics of their field (something Joan had expressed interest in, but now that it’s actually happening she seems unhappy). Even before Peggy came on board we had some issues with Joan not taking feedback, like “we’d like this Llama Grooming work to align with XYZ values that resonate more with younger customers” and she just dismisses it entirely. So lots to talk about.
          I think the ages might also be a factor here – Joan is about 20 years older than me (her manager) and about 30 years older than Peggy.

  32. Yet another person*

    If you have been interviewed by a panel (1st interview, 1 hour) how many people on the hiring side are usually participating in it?

    I had 12, which seems like a lot! Especially since they all took turns asking questions.

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      The second and final interview for my last job involved a panel of 8. Luckily, they only asked 2 questions each. Panel interviews shouldn’t have more than 4 interviewers in my opinion – otherwise, it’s just too overwhelming and impossible to build a rapport.

      1. Yet another person*

        I agree, I’ve always been interviewed by either just the hiring manager or 2-3 people – maybe 4 once or twice.

        I wondered if this was a new trend or if maybe they were trying to overwhelm to test me? The manager is very experienced.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh wow. What industry/sector?
      In engineering & IT I’ve never had a panel of more than 3.

      1. Yet another person*

        A project management office. They all seemed very nice, but it seemed very unusual to have 4 times as many people as I’m used to involved, especially for a first interview!

      2. Rosie*

        IT within higher ed here — 6 to 8 people is not uncommon for at least one panel. The hiring committee might include the person who will be your manager, one or two peers from different IT teams, one or two individuals from “client” departments if you’re customer-facing at all, someone from HR, and maybe the next manager level up.

    3. londonedit*

      Twelve people! That’s mad. I think the most I’ve ever seen is three; usually in my experience first interviews are conducted by two people, sometimes three, and then a second interview might be the more senior person from the first interview plus someone more senior still.

    4. LaDonna*

      Usually if it’s a panel like that, most of the people really aren’t involved in the hiring side but rather people you would work with, and they want to make sure whoever they hire is a good fit. I haven’t had an interview with that many people on the panel, but I have had ones where there were 5 people.

      Perhaps they were burned by previous hires who ended up being a bad culture fit, and they want to eliminate that possibility for future hires as much as possible.

      1. Yet another person*

        Good point. A good culture fit is important to them – but I have never seen it approached quite this way before!

    5. A Penguin!*

      My last job before the current one was two panels of 4ish (which combined was effectively all of the engineering staff plus CEO & HR). I want to say it was a lot bordering on too many, but ultimately it worked. They were actually both great conversations, despite being a little intimidating.

      My current job was four 1:1 interviews back-to-back in the first round and a 1:1 plus a 2 person panel in the 2nd.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think I’ve had more than 4 at a time… usually 2-3, though. 12 is definitely a lot!

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      when I moved into my current role (as a manager), I had three interviews — the director who is my direct boss, a panel that was five other directors/managers in our department, and the exec director who is my grandboss.

    9. Distractinator*

      When we do unmoderated panel interviews it’s usually 3-5 people and we discuss what’s on our minds, more of a free-flow conversation but each person usually comes in with some notes based on the candidates resume or brings their favorite pet topic questions. I was just involved with a 7-person panel and there was a moderator who specifically went around and gave each person a turn to ask prepared questions, it was much more formal. I can’t imagine 12, that’s a lot – seems like half the hour would be gone by the time you did introductions!

    10. Girasol*

      I had that once for IT project management. At first I found it daunting but it seemed like none of them was quite sure what to do and they were all hoping that someone else would take the lead. I felt like a mouse who’d backed off a roomful of kittens.

    12. irene adler*

      Twelve on a panel seems excessive.
      More like a firing squad !

      I’ve been through interviews where 13-14 people interviewed me. Separately.

      So I had to answer the usual ice breaker question “so why are you looking for a new job?” sixteen separate times.
      And several more questions multiple times.

      I got to wondering if I should give a different answer each time -just to provide some variety. Or would they compare notes to see if I gave the same response each time?

      So I wonder if they thought the panel format would be easier as each question would be asked and answered one time. And more expedient. If so, they sure didn’t factor in the stress these things cause the candidate!

  33. STG*

    I have an opportunity coming down the line on my current team to become the new manager. I’ve worked with this team for the last 8 years and I’ve done every level of position within the team. I’ve very familiar with the infrastructure so from a knowledge perspective, I’m pretty confident. So, that part of the transition shouldn’t be difficult.

    That being said, this would be my first position at a manager level. I’ve done supervisory type positions a long time ago but never to the level of people management with reviews, promotions, hiring, etc. I’ll also be managing people who have previously been teammates which has it’s own challenges.

    I’ve learned enough from reading this blog to know that I’ll have to lot to learn and I don’t expect to be immediately competent. Thankfully, this blog has also given me a good understanding of things to avoid. I’d really like to get off to the right foot though. I’ve read some tips for first time managers but open to hearing more. I’d love some reading suggestions as well if someone knows of a particularly good book for new managers.

    1. LaDonna*

      I was in a similar boat as you, I was promoted from my team and now manage the team I was on. 4 out of the 5 people were my teammates and there’s only 1 person that is new.

      I’ve been in this position for 3 years now, and even though I’ve been reading this blog for 9 years, it’s all so much more challenging when you have to do it yourself!

      Some things I’ve learned:
      – Don’t assume people understand what you mean, be very direct. Vagueness gets nowhere. It’s better to over explain and add more details than not.
      – Learn to delegate, it’s the most wonderful thing.
      – Be flexible, your people will appreciate it. I work in a department of about 15 teams, and my team is the only one who’s had zero turnover during the last 2 years. I would like to think it’s because I’m very flexible and understanding of anything that happens in their personal lives.
      – Listen and do less talking when working with your people, learn to let them share ideas instead of being the one who decides what the next steps are (this might be your MO anyway, I’m a bit more controlling and had to learn this).
      – Have regular check ins, ask how they’re doing, be genuinely interested in them.
      – Discuss issues at the time they happen, don’t let them build up.
      – Re: above, learn when it’s not a big deal and it’s not worth bringing up. I’m a very picky person and like things done a certain way, but in the grand scheme of things a different approach isn’t a big deal if the result is the same. I’ve had to learn to chill :)
      – Re: also above. Don’t bring up issues months later, people will be like “um why didn’t you tell me 3 months ago?”
      – Discuss opportunities for growth and working on new projects. Daily recurring work is boring for a lot of people, adding variety will keep people interested.
      – It’s okay to make mistakes as a new manager and say the wrong things. I’ve done it a few times, and it’s part of the process.
      – Admit when you’ve handled something the wrong way.

      1. STG*

        Great tips! I can see that I’ll have to be mindful of a few of these based on my own personality.

        Thank you very much!

    2. ferrina*

      First, find a mentor. You’ll need someone well outside your team to bounce ideas and situations off.
      Next, know yourself and your weaknesses. Are you easy to talk to, or a little abrasive? Overly compassionate or overly focused on the goal?Be really honest with yourself and how you may need to develop your leadership style. These types of things are easier to deal with if you’ve already started laying groundwork in advance (such as deciding which policies you are okay with flexing and a few scenarios of what would/wouldn’t make it flexible, which policies need to be absolutely upheld, and which ones you flat out don’t care about).
      Finally, ask HR lots of questions and use HR’s expertise. They’ve done a million of the reviews/hiring/firing/etc., so make good friends with them and use that knowledge (I did that early in my career, and my HR was so happy to have someone that wanted to use her expertise! and she taught me a lot)

      Congrats on your opportunity!

      1. STG*

        Thank you!

        I need to think on the right one but the mentor suggestion is a great idea.

        I like to think I’m pretty mindful about recognizing my weaknesses but I’m sure that I’m blind to some of them. Sounds like it may be time to do a thorough inventory of them. I’m close enough with a few coworkers (that I wouldn’t be leading) that I think I could get an honest assessment of some of those areas as well.

    3. no sleep for the wicked*

      Don’t assume because you’ve done all the things you should expect the people currently doing those things to do them your way.
      A department adjacent to mine recently promoted someone like this and it took him a while to stop treating his former colleagues like children, to the point of looming over them and helpfully doling out instructions like ‘now hit enter’ while reviewing a workflow.
      He also pissed off some very experienced folks by challenging their methods which have worked well for these individuals for years. It’s like he felt compelled to perform managing rather than observe and learn from experts he now manages.

      1. STG*

        Good thing to keep in mind. I work in Information Technology and my team covers a pretty large variety of specialties. I’m already very good at recognizing their expertise. So, I don’t expect to have an issue with the last few sentences of your comments. Still, I do need to be mindful that not everyone works the same way that I do. I don’t want to get into a situation where I’m dictating everything.

        Thank you for the suggestion!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      One thing that has served me well is to always remember I am nothing without them. I thought I became a better supervisor when I viewed my job as serving those who serve the company. This one thought kept me level headed through many difficult situations. A great example is when I had to tell a person to stop doing X. Once I framed it as, “I am serving them by telling them what they need to do to keep their jobs”, it became just a matter of sitting down and saying, “Okay, we need Y, you’re doing X. What’s up.” And then I would listen.

      Since you know the people that will give you a leg up, you will find that you have useful insights that you did not realize you had. And this can also work into that they actually respect you because you have done the jobs/tasks and they are very willing to follow your leadership for this reason.

  34. Françoise*

    I hope it’s ok to ask this question here – it’s volunteer-related for me and work-related for the other person involved.
    I create a monthly calendar with events and birthdays for my church and ask the pastoral staff to send me the information that should be published or to update the online calendar by a certain deadline. For some time I’ve been getting some additions when I send out a version for last corrections, i.e. after I’ve spent a while on the layout, forcing me to re-do my work. So I made it clear that I’d only include late information if it didn’t mean a lot of work reformating.
    Monday was the deadline, I spent Monday evening on the document, sent it out and had new events and times from the youth pastor on Tuesday. No apologies. I included some of it, but not all, and explained again, why I needed the information earlier. She wrote back explaining why she was late and added, “You have my okay not to include the [children’s event].”
    I replied that it would have been helpful if she’d told me upfront that she’d need more time. But what really irks me is the “okay” to leave the event off. I don’t report to her and I don’t need her okay.
    Is there any way to remind her that I’m not in her chain of command that’s clear but not blunt and hurtful? FWIW she’s mid to late 30s and I’m over 60, but I still haven’t mastered friendly and clear boundary-setting.

    1. pancakes*

      I don’t think you can push back on this without seeming churlish. Presumably she meant that she will be understanding / not disappointed if you leave the event out, not that she literally thinks she is giving you permission to leave it out.

    2. Colette*

      Can you try sending an email at the deadline to those you haven’t heard from? I.e. “I haven’t received your updates, so they will not be included in the next calendar”.

      Alternatively, can you give them a specific amount of space, and they need to fit their updates into that space?

      But I also think you know who you need to get updates from, so spending a lot of time formatting before you have that information isn’t terribly productive if you’re going to include it anyway – and you probably do need to include it anyway, because … it’s a church, and if you want people to show up , you have to tell them what’s going on.

    3. Artemesia*

      You are wildly overreacting to her comment that it was okay to leave this off. It isn’t about ‘chain of command’; it is just a way of her stating priorities for her announcements. Making this about your authority is dysfunctional. What she said was ‘sorry this is late, so it is okay if you can’t include this’ — it doesn’t in anyway indicate she thinks she is your boss.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I wouldn’t express this as strongly, but I agree that her comment about it being okay to leave it off was likely just her acknowledging her own mistake and trying to indicate that she didn’t intend to be pushy about it.

    4. Camelid coordinator*

      I see a couple of choices. The one I don’t like is building in a second calendar formatting round (essentially what you are doing now) because they don’t respond/remember until they see the draft. Maybe you could spend less time on the draft so you don’t have as many formatting headaches in the second round?

      It might work better to enforce the boundary (= deadline for calendar entries) for a while so she (and the others) take it more seriously. I can’t imagine you want to do the calendar twice each month, and after a couple of months of you not adding their late information (and possibly receiving complaints from parishioners about it) they’ll remember to put the deadline on their own calendars. Does the staff really need to see a draft? My guess is that they are asking for a draft just so they can see what they forgot. You could accomplish that with a list, not the formatted calendar.

      If is is crucial the calendar be updated as the month goes along and that puts you over the edge, you get to say so. You can propose how you’d like to handle or suggest that the parish admin do the updates outside of your cycle.

    5. ferrina*

      Oh, the dynamics of the church workplace!

      This is so funky because unlike other workplaces, pastors often need to rely on volunteers in order to get the basic resources that they need to be successful. Pastors also have waaaaaay more stakeholders than most workplaces have to deal with (we should form a committee to consider this).

      Best way I’ve seen to deal with this is to be upfront on what you can/can not do (rather than trying to get into reasons, expectations or power dynamics). “Sorry, I have other commitments and can’t redo the calendar now that it’s out. I’ll circle back on [DATE] to get the events list for [NEXT MONTH’S] calendar.”

      Please remember that you are already part of a pastor’s hiring committee by being part of the congregation. If this person is generally great at their job, kind and loving, please give them a pass on not being great on the calendar. If they are struggling in other aspects, are there ways the congregation can better support them or take some responsibilities off their plate? Or if they just aren’t a good fit, you can flag that and decline to do this task and focus your energy elsewhere.

    6. Attractive Nuisance*

      So if I’m understanding it correctly, you do allow late submissions, but only if it doesn’t mess with the format?

      This seems like a problematic boundary to set, because it may not be obvious to others what will and won’t mess up the formatting. It might be better to say that there will be no late submissions and that the final draft review is only to correct mistakes.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      It sounds like she probably thinks you’re just asking what else needs to be included and doesn’t realize her feedback is beyond what you’re looking for! A lot of people honestly don’t understand how much work formatting/updating this kind of thing can be, so start being clearer about what changes can be made. Like when you send it out on Monday say something along the lines of “please proofread and let me know if I need to correct any typos or event times” so people recognize you’re only looking for small scale changes. Then if someone wants you to do more “unfortunately I won’t be able to include that in this week’s newsletter but would you like me to add it to the next one?” Or if you’re willing you might let them know you can update the online calendar but it won’t appear on the print one.

    8. CTT*

      I think the “okay” comment is a red herring – I use that a lot as a synonym for “I’m okay with that/I agree with that.” But getting in late submissions is annoying, and I agree with Colette and Attractive Nuisance that you should be more proactive in reminding people about the deadline and not allowing things in after it’s passed. The “I’ll add some things but not all” is a hard standard and people will push on it (without even realizing they are).

    9. Lyuda*

      Since you’re a volunteer and have made everyone aware of what you can/won’t do, could you reframe it as the other person’s quirk? Like if they feel the need to ‘okay’ things that outside of their purview, that’s an irritating trait, but if you can see it like that, it might alleviate the urge to wrest control back from them. Especially since you don’t rely on them for an income if it comes down to it. Like, the day they say ‘I do NOT give you the okay to leave this as-is’, you get to tell them ‘unfortunately, as outlined in xyz communications, that won’t be possible. Sorry!’.

    10. RagingADHD*

      The problem with a setup like this is that there are knock-on effects if the church members don’t get the information they need about upcoming events. So setting a hard cutoff for everything might mean low/no turnout for things that get left off, people making conflicting plans, etc.

      What other channels are used to announce events? If they can also announce them in 2 or 3 other places, like the weekly bulletin, an email blast, and/or social media, then I’d say it’s fine to make a blanket rule of no late additions for anything.

      Having the cutoff be discretionary or fuzzy is just more work for you to constantly renegotiate what can or can’t be added.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Go ahead and make that cut off a hard cut off. No exceptions. “If I do not have your information by X date/time, then you will need to find other channels to get your information out to the people.”

        Make sure you tell the pastor what you are doing and why.

    11. ClergySpouse*

      Every clergy person in America is losing their mind and burning out right now. The time they blocked off to send you newsletter updates probably got eaten up by a pastoral emergency phone call, a chatty person overstaying, the worship streaming software crashing, the organist getting COVID or whatever fresh disaster struck. Over analyzing their word choice when they were basically acknowledging they missed a deadline is not necessary.

    12. Françoise*

      Thanks everyone – for the wake up call that I should show her some grace and for the suggestions.
      There are reasons why I’m so irritated – a back story that I didn’t share.
      Yes, there are other channels for information (announcements, homepage etc.), but I’d like to have the monthly bulletin as accurate as possible so that people feel like they can trust it.
      I hadn’t thought that allowing changes after the draft might be confusing people and I really don’t want to refuse to make changes just to make a point.
      And what I’m realizing is that maybe I should give up this task to someone who’s a little more laid back.
      Thanks again!

  35. hiring manager*

    This week we had someone show up to our office for a second interview…. that was a zoom call. They were sooooo embarrassed!!

    But they were a great candidate, and we offered them the job!

    Just wanted to give some hope to people that make an honest mistake like that in an interview. If you’re a strong candidate, it doesn’t matter! :)

    1. CatCat*

      I showed up to the wrong location on my first day of a new job so I feel for the candidate. Glad you didn’t hold it against the candidate and it’s a win-win since they were a great candidate.

    2. no sleep for the wicked*

      Tell us about a time… when you showed up for an interview that was supposed to be via Zoom? How did you handle the last-minute pivot?

    4. Be kind, rewind*

      Yup. When interviewing for my current role, I missed the (Zoom) interview with the hiring manager because I misremembered the time. Still got the job lol.

  36. quill*

    Just complaining here, but the day that I go a whole week without coming in to work and confronting mystery storage room puddle, Son of Safety Violation, slip hazard extraordinare, I will be a very happy camper.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I took two days off once and came back to literal blood splatters like. EVERYWHERE. So I sympathize.

      1. quill*

        I mean ANYTHING is better than pig biosample sump pump floods, which I have had before. But Son of Safety Violation is blocking me off from putting things away.

        Were the blood spatters… fresh?

        1. Amber Rose*

          Fresh-ish. They were from the previous day. Dude sliced off the tip of his finger with an exacto knife. Extremely minor injury with overkill levels of mess. He bled all over the production floor but somehow nobody thought to clean up more than the bathroom sink.

    2. Annony*

      Thank you for reminding me that the mysterious person who added water to the half filled soap dispenser need not take up any more of my time than the 5 minutes I have spent wondering… who… why?
      There is a refill of soap right next to the dispenser… refill with water?
      So much better than mysterious puddles and blood – Thanks AAM community!

      1. quill*

        Hey, my puddle possibly contains soap too. And in the last… six? Hours maitenance hasn’t bothered to speak to us about Son of Safety Violation.

  37. Secret Squirrel*

    I’ve been freelancing and completely outside the world of formal HR and management for a million years, but took a “job” a few months ago. I’m out of touch with things like performance reviews and could use guidance!

    I’ve been asked to fill out a check-in, which is a self-assessment of how I think it’s going and how well I feel aligned with the organization. It goes to my HR person, who “escalates” anything particularly positive or negative to my leadership team. We’re a really small team so anything I send will be immediately attributed to me, and I don’t know if they even try to keep it confidential. NGL all this makes me very nervous. I feel like I’m doing a pretty good job but things aren’t clear and I’m not sure how to succeed here. And life is hard right now, so I’m not my best self.

    How do you approach these? How honest are you? I assume it makes sense to be fairly honest about understanding the role and feeling supported, because that’s about getting what I need to be more successful. But things like whether I see myself there in several years, I should say yes even if I don’t mean it, right? I don’t want to be cynical and just check 10s on everything. I also don’t want to be so honest I sabotage myself. My tendency is to focus on the negative so I definitely want to adjust for that.

    1. Artemesia*

      Honesty is a much overrated virtue in such matters. Especially when you are new to self evaluations in a setting err on the side of giving as little information that can be used against you as possible. Of course you will be there in 5 years. Your failures are all things that a little more experience will bring up to speed and you are doing what is needed to improve. Your confidence issues are a closely held secret that you don’t disclose.

      1. Secret Squirrel*

        Thank you. I know that I’ve been tipping my hand and revealing confidence issues WAY too much. Gotta tighten up but not sure how! Life is hard, I’m struggling with personal stuff, and it’s leaking out.

    2. New Mom*

      @Secret Squirrel, this isn’t an answer but since you mentioned you switched from freelancing to a regular job, what made you want to go back? I’m asking because I’m thinking about doing the reverse shift and would love to know what people DON’T like about freelancing because I feel like everyone I talk to only talks about the positives and I know it must be hard.

      1. Secret Squirrel*

        Honestly I only went back in of necessity, a means to an end. My personal life got dumped upside down and with that plus some pandemic business setbacks I didn’t have the hustle in me to rebuild my practice. This offer landed in my lap and I thought this would give me the mental space for my life as well as a big steady paycheck. I don’t expect to stay in more than a couple of years.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am confused. So this is a self-assessment. But if you say something negative— about yourself???— it goes to management? wth.

      Okay so I would not write anything on there that I would not say right to my boss’ face. Period. That to me is how to handle this mess.

      1. Secret Squirrel*

        Well, they call it a self-assessment but it’s more my assessment of the company, not of myself. How well my boss and organization are doing at onboarding and supporting me and if I see myself having a future there. But that’s not much better, IMO. Am I really supposed to feel safe saying critical things about my leadership and organization?

        But your second paragraph is the right way forward. Don’t say anything I wouldn’t say to their faces. thank you!

  38. Fabulous*

    How do you navigate internal interviews? I applied for an internal position earlier this week, and while I hadn’t gotten a response yet, I’m nervous about interviewing! It would be a lateral move, but more aligned with my desired career path and skills (which I did indicate in my cover letter).

    There’s also another caveat to taking a lateral position right now – I’ll have the opportunity for advancement in the coming months because my counterpart is retiring and I’m positioned to get her job once she’s gone. I’m excited at the prospect of moving up to the next salary bracket, but I’ve been feeling like I don’t want to stay in this job for a while now. Why does this decision have to be so difficult?!

    1. Alice*

      In your situation, you’ll be thinking about whether a lateral move now means that the next salary brackett will take longer to reach. But from what you wrote, it sounds like you have a push factor (feeling like you don’t want to stay in this job for a while) *and* a pull factor (more aligned with desired career path). Sounds to me like you should go for it :)

      1. Fabulous*

        Definitely going for it, just nervous as heck :)

        On a good note – the pay range was posted for this lateral position and the top is about $20k more than I make now, and even mid-range is $10k more than my current salary, so I could be in for a decent raise regardless. I’m mainly hoping that if I were to make the move, they don’t cap my raise!

        I also feel super bad that my counterpart is retiring in a few months regardless and we’re the only 2 people who do this job in our department. I hate to leave everyone SOL…

  39. fakelondoner*

    I have a question for any fellow UK-based readers who work in HR: is a CIPD qualification worth it?
    I’m the “de facto” HR person at my very small company and it’s made me realise I quite enjoy this sort of work. I’ve done a lot of self-study and online courses. I have extensive project management and consulting experience, so I’m thinking my next role might be in-house HR or human capital consulting, learning & development, etc. I’d really love to get an official CIPD certification, but I’m afraid asking my boss to fund it would set off alarm bells (I’m not looking to leave immediately, but there’s only so far to go in a sub-10 employee company). Is it worth self-funding? I am a manager and I’d like my next role to be a lateral move. I just worry it would be impossible to move on to a middle management HR role (or at least just not entry-level) without the CIPD qualification. Any insight? Xx

    1. Anna Badger*

      I don’t know anyone who has self funded, which probably tells you something. could you sell it to your manager as wanting to improve your skills rather than focusing on the qualification part? it really is a valuable piece of learning as well as a set of letters, and having a free facto HR person without a wide set of training puts the company at significant risk if something unexpected happens.

      side note: went to the website to see what it actually costs, and one of my former colleagues appears as a testimonial for the Level 5! also they have a January sale on so if you’re gonna self fund you might want to get a shift on :)

  40. Alice*

    Curious about peoples’ thoughts —
    Where I work, individual contributors have cubicles and managers have offices.
    Currently everyone has to come in 50% of the time and can come in more. I come in the minimum amount for a few reasons — my work is mostly Zoom meetings with internal clients who are based in different buildings (and sometimes different states), and I see no reason to do that from the office. But most importantly some people with cubicles in the same open office don’t wear masks at their cubicles. That is explicitly permitted by our employer’s “safety” policy.
    I get that we don’t have space for everyone to have an office — but at the same time I am pretty damn salty about having to work in person in a cubicle next to a person who doesn’t wear a mask in general, and having to do it *while some of the managers’ private offices are empty* leave me fuming.
    I mean, in practical terms, some kind of hot-desking in the managers’ offices when unoccupied would not provide everyone with non-shared air — that’s just arithmetic. And I don’t want any complaints on my part to lead to a new rule that managers have to come in 100% so that their offices are justified — that wouldn’t make me feel any safer.
    Should I just find a new job? Easier said than done of course….

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Our company does the same, but I thought that was safe? If you’re in a cube by yourself, a mask isn’t needed – it’s only when you’re out and possibly close to others that I wear it. Am I exposing other people after all? (Ok, there’s almost no-one in the office, but there is a guy in the next cube over.)

      2. Alice*

        So originally we thought that it spread via large droplets and fomites, so “you don’t need to mask in your cubicle” made sense. Your cubicle neighbor isn’t sneezing or spitting on you :) Any large droplets will fall to the floor in a pretty small radius.
        But now we know that it spreads via airborne small droplets – aerosols – that can float in the air like invisible cigarette smoke. What’s dangerous is inhaling air previously exhaled by someone who is infected (even if they don’t know it). So, good ventilation (to remove exhaled air), filtering (to clean aerosols potentially carrying virus), and masking (to prevent my aerosols from getting in to the air that you breath in the next cubicle, thanks to masks with good fit and filtration) are all important.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          Ok. I only have a cloth mask, not one of the better ones, but I can start wearing it while in the cube too.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            You’ll want to take a good look at yourself in your cloth mask. Does it have any gaps at the sides or the nose? The mask only filters the air that passes through it, so if air is coming in and out through gaps in the sides, that air is unfiltered and it’s probably not offering you the level of protection you want/need. Some of my friends have had success with adding pipe cleaners or floral wire to their cloth masks to make them tighter fitting to provide better protection.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I flamboyantly double mask in my cube through the whole day, and have a small air filter running in my area to suck up stray droplets, and sport a “Nose-Free Zone” sign. I make a point not to eat in the break room when others are there, which spreads out my nose-exposed colleague time a bit.

      I don’t feel like fighting to get a separate space, but I hear you. Have you got any tasks where “spreading out in the conference room” makes sense?

      Get some resumes out if you want, and see how it plays out.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Is your company an outlier or mainstream in your region? What is the prevailing attitude / practice about indoor masking where you live?

      Where I live, the fact that they only have 50% occupancy and require masks at all ever, would make them far more cautious than any other non-healthcare setting.

      It may be worth looking for a new job, but it probably makes sense forst to ask around about norms in your target market rather than general Internet norms. Because the expectations of people on the other side of the country or the ocean don’t translate into real jobs where you live.

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Have you asked anyone in your office if you would be allowed to use an office if it’s empty for the day?

  41. A Cataloger*

    We are considering purchasing branded shirts or pullovers or vests or something to wear for our employees. I really don’t want us to go with one style that is only going to really fit a handful of people (been there can’t wear that shirt). Does anyone have any recommendations of companies that would allow us to offer a few high quality styles or choices that employees can choose what they would like? Preferably the company would be size, gender, style, etc. inclusive. Thanks!

    1. Wordnerd*

      Lands End is very local to me, but my university uses them to order logo’d stuff, and it lasts forever. I would think you could pick a few different options, and they have lots of good options for outerwear (I’m wearing a non-logo’d but Lands End hooded sweatshirt right now, but it reads pretty professional). No idea what cross-country shipping would look like, but worth looking into.

      1. Kage*

        Our company also uses Lands End. It is great as you can get samples of both printed and stitched versions of your logos. We have a logo that I would not have expected to work with embroidery but it turned out really, really well. Definitely pay for the test. You can then also then set up options for all-white/all-black versions of your logos (as those sometimes work better on some colors). Lands End offers a ton of options in style, material, and color so everyone has been able to find a style that they like/prefer. The challenge for your company might be developing some sort of standards for your team which specifies any limitations you might prefer based on your brand standards /logo (such as “the regular logo can be printed on black, dark gray or dark blue color items. If you are ordering a white or other-light color, please make sure to specify that you want the all-black logo version”).

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I believe LL Bean has a branded products offering (if they can monogram your shirt, they can put a logo on your shirt). And they certainly cater to a broader range of people than most tshirt places.

    3. Haha Lala*

      Whatever you go with, I’d recommend getting a few samples in different styles/sizes so people can try them on first. Personally I can be anywhere from a medium to XXL depending on cut, so I hate trying to guess just off of size charts.

    4. Anon for This*

      A friend is in the branded T-shirt business. Right now, with supply chain issues, he is often sourcing from multiple shirt suppliers just to fill orders. I would imagine others are in the same boat, so a variety of styles might actually be helpful. I’d recommend you put together a list of more or less what you think you need, and use that to evaluate any proposed supplier.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Yes, suppliers are an issue. My company provides logo’ed jackets and swag for milestone anniversaries of service. I was due for a jacket last summer; just got it last month because they had to find another supplier. (It’s a REALLY nice jacket – love it.) I’d ask suppliers about sourcing when getting quotes.

    5. Pete the Cat*

      We used American Apparel, who offer women’s shirts with great sizing and fit, not like big rectangles. Two years and many washes later, they’re still looking great! Not cheap, but very good quality.

      1. superduper*

        American Apparel is not friendly for all sizes, their shirts are all ridiculously tight and you have to order 2-3 sizes larger if you don’t wear tight clothes and that is awkward at work where sharing your size already sucks. If you’re at the higher end, you can’t even order larger bc it’s past their upper size limit.

        I’ve had good luck with Land’s End in the past. Whatever you order, give people the size charts with the actual numbers of how many inches wide/tall the shirts are and provide samples to try if you can and are in person. I’m awkwardly proportioned and hate getting branded stuff because I can’t wear or return it.

        Also, be careful about gendered options. I often prefer men’s shirts because they aren’t tight or trying to emphasize a chest I don’t have. One job let me order men’s but didn’t tell me they decided to get different colors, so everyone knew I ordered men’s and I didn’t want to advertise that. Don’t do that… it was so icky on so many levels…

    6. BookMom*

      Lands End for the win! They do a great job with logos, and have a wide range of sizes! Quality is high, too — I have fleece that look good after 10 years or more.

  42. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

    So it has become obvious to me that my current boss sucks and will never change, and that my current employer might change but at a slower-than-glacial pace. With the help of my close friends, I’m working towards a career change after I undergo some critical medical procedures in the next few months. I am, of course, exploring my legal options (discrimination under ADA) as I continue to try to hang in at my current job for the sake of insurance and finances.

    Any advice for how to vet an employer’s accessibility/inclusion practices? I’m queer and have multiple hidden disabilities, but can work in most traditional offices if I’m granted reasonable accommodation. Most of these are not accommodations typically required/available at the interview stage (although my service dog may soon be ready to accompany me on interviews I’m hoping to work remotely). I’d prefer not to disclose either my LGBT+ or medical status during interviews if possible, especially when applying to employers in my geographic region of the U.S, but I’d be open to suggestions on how to navigate disclosures.

    If anyone has questions to ask, specific things to look for, or other tips please share!

    1. Leilah*

      Glassdoor reviews are always helpful if the company is big enough. Their are also certifications like the Human Rights Campaign. However, the best ways are going to disclose right away at the interview stage and that’s the most surefire way to find out — essentially, it’s giving them a chance to discriminate and seeing if they take it. I’m queer and disabled myself, so I understand the dilemma. It all depends how badly you need to leave immediately, and of course, just because they pass the first test doesn’t mean they will actually be great in the day-to-day.

    2. Fikly*

      Also LGBT+ and disabled in multiple ways, some hidden and some very much not, and currently job searching.

      I read the language in the job posts about DEI and non-discrimminatory hiring very carefully. Pretty much everyone puts something in, but what they put in is very telling. For example: when listing the groups they “want” to hire because hey, isn’t everyone special? do they even mention people who are disabled? It’s an unusual green flag. Do they mention accommodations during the hiring process? Also unusual, and I have only once seen a direct way to contact them before an interview is offered.

      Another thing to look for in the language is if they are talking about how DEI benefits them, or how they can benefit their employees. Are they looking to celebrate difference, or provide a safe environment? You start to learn the coded language that indicates whether they are all talk, or if someone there has lived experience that indicates they are actually doing something. An ERG means nothing, but them putting money into something? That means a lot. But pay attention – are the groups they are calling out the popular or more socially acceptable minorities to support, or are they inclusive?

      My question I’m planning on asking in interviews (should I ever get one): There’s a difference between diversity and inclusion, and inclusion is very important to me. Can you give me a concrete example of a time an employee wasn’t included, and what was done? Basically, I want to know how the issue was raised – did the employee have to advocate for themselves, was it a co-worker, manager, or leadership, and was it addressed? And if they tell you it’s never happened, well, that tells you all you need to know right there, because it happens everywhere.

      1. ChipTease*

        That’s an interesting question, but it might not be an easy one to answer while having appropriate regard for an individual’s privacy. I don’t think that people’s disabilities, needs and accommodations are or should be widely known in an organisation.

    3. Mimmy*

      I’ll definitely be following this thread. I have multiple, mostly invisible, disabilities and, after reading through the post the other day about disability inclusion in employment, I thought about posting a similar question in the Open Thread. I’d want to know that an employer truly embraces inclusion and isn’t merely checking all the required boxes.

  43. Delighting in daffodils*

    Suggestions for a more soothing cubicle?

    My pandemic setup of working from the sofa close to two huge windows has made the return to office transition difficult. My cubicle walls are gray, the fluorescent lights distract and hurt my eyes, and I have no natural light. The blah-ness is really bringing me down!

    What can I do to my current cube that might make it a more pleasant vibe? I want large swaths of soothing color (wallpaper? Fabric?). Other suggestions?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Fabric is nice, easy to hang and clean. I’ve wallpapered my cube with pictures of pretty gardens and hung small stuffed animals. Plus I have a huge Labyrinth theme calendar. Also since my cube has a bit of a ceiling, I strung up small, battery powered fairy lights (since otherwise it’s sort of dark). They combat the glare from the overhead fluorescents, which is a nice bonus.

    2. pancakes*

      A desk or table lamp to add some warmth to the fluorescent lighting.

      If there’s a particular fabric you have in mind, you might stretch it over a simple frame kit. I did this with a couple of the frame kits from Textile Arts (txtlart dot com) and some vintage Scandinavian fabric I loved for the hall in my last apartment.

    3. Observer*

      A lot depends on how much space you have.

      Can you turn off the light in your cubicle? In any case, a desk lamp with not-white light might be helpful. If you have space, a small plant that doesn’t take a lot of care can be nice. Also, pictures can be nice, either on your desk or tacked to the wall.

    4. Girasol*

      I have seen workers hang a green leaf canopy (Ikea makes one) from a corner of the cubicle to block direct fluorescent light from the ceiling. It’s an easier solution than bickering with coworkers over whether or not to remove light tubes.

    5. Happy Lurker*

      I have a pretty mountain lake poster. I just love it. Also, personal pictures and a nice calendar. I keep it small and portable.
      I am not good with fabric or plants.

    6. no sleep for the wicked*

      I have found a desk lamp with a plant/grow/daylight bulb and a few plants are helpful. My former cubicle was horrendous and one side has some odd open shelves instead of a wall, so I bought a photographer’s backdrop (basically a giant cloth sheet printed with any manner of art/nature scenery) and hung it over the shelves. It was like $25 and gave a little better vibe to the spot.

    7. tangerineRose*

      When I started getting headaches under fluorescent lights, I asked for one of the lights above me to be turned off and started wearing a wide-brimmed hat that helped shield my eyes. It helped.

    8. Silence*

      There was a thread about decorating a while back that mentioned window frame wall stickers with a variety of views. Plants, air purifiers, lighting

  44. Amber Rose*

    So we hired this consultant. He’s trying to help us grow from two cowboys in a cardboard box into a real company. Mostly this involves hours of meetings where we draw flow charts with markers, which kinda makes me feel like I’m trapped in corporate hell for toddlers, and the words “future state” repeated ad infinitum. That said, it’s helping and I actually respect this dude a lot. Good things are happening, I’m just being facetious because I’m tired.

    But… bad things are also happening. We attempted to hire someone to help me and that didn’t pan out, we had to let her go (and that sucked SO MUCH, that whole situation). And I’m not allowed to try again because the consultant doesn’t want to hire someone into the old way when the new way is coming. Oh, and the person who is theoretically supposed to help is never here and has Covid. Actually, everyone around me has Covid. I’m scared I have Covid.

    I’m drowning, I’m anxious, I feel like I’m going to vibrate right out of my skin. I’m not getting anything done. Supply chain issues mean our customers are getting increasingly angry at delivery times in excess of 2 to 3 months, but what am I supposed to do? I’m hiding from emails and voicemails because I can’t. I just can’t.

    I’m coping even more poorly than usual. Which sucks because normally I love what I do and recently I’ve been given the chance to take on some new things I’m interested in. Unfortunately, I don’t get the time to feel good about it because I’m dying inside from stress and fear.

    1. Distractinator*

      Oh, no, this sounds really frustrating and exhausting. Transitions are really tough even when you have the actual staff to keep doing the necessary jobs, and sounds like you’re lacking manpower for basic functionality. And then being asked to not only stay functional but contribute on the big-picture level while it’s all going on. I’ve got no real advice for you just sympathy.
      And supportive comments: You’re really dedicated to company success, it takes a lot to see them through this transition and I hope they value that!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Honestly even with double the workload, I’m fast enough that I could probably be OK for a bit longer. But it’s not double, because most of the staff I need to support my role are out with Covid now. So little things pile up, like how someone else was going to grab stuff for the retirement party today but couldn’t so I had to. Or how the purchaser is sick so I have to source my own product. It’s… a LOT.

        It’s been fun to watch this tiny little company double and I want to see how big it gets, it’s just a lot.

    2. All Het Up About It*

      This sounds so rough. I get the idea of waiting to hire until the “new way” is here… but what if the new way gets delayed? How much longer of no help for you is truly sustainable?

      Also – is there anyway you could just hire a temp to take some of the burden off of you? Espeically with people out temporarily with Covid.

      1. Amber Rose*

        That was brought up, but my work requires a lot of knowledge that there’s just no way to teach someone in a short period of time. I could probably teach someone enough in a day to offload some of the easy stuff… but the easy stuff isn’t the problem.

        Management wanted to hire someone to re-do our inventory instead of having me do it, but like. How’s an outsider supposed to understand the nonsense that is our inventory enough to make it make sense? There’s a reason I’m doing it and it’s because the inventory lives in my head.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This one here is your top priority: “I’m drowning, I’m anxious, I feel like I’m going to vibrate right out of my skin.”

      Get checked for Covid. Get some at home tests if you do not already have them and consider checking every few days. Not trying to be scary but rather trying to say pay attention to this feeling you described here. Whenever I get this way, I am headed into something- cold, flu, whatever. The last time I had this was over Thanksgiving and I ended up with “knocked flat on my back” allergies. I thought it was Covid, seriously. The home test said nope, and I started loading up on allergy stuff and that did the trick.

  45. Middle Manager*

    Question about how far in advance to announce an out-of-state move to a job where you don’t have the option to work remotely.

    My husband and I plan to move out of state, and hopefully buy a house, within the next year. He is currently full-time WFH, and my job — which was remote until July 2021 — is back to full in-person operations, with the option of one telework day per week. I am actively job-searching specifically for remote roles, but if the right opportunity comes along, we’re prepared to move even if I don’t have a job. (I came THISCLOSE to quitting my job this summer due to burnout, so we know the math will work with one income, especially moving to a lower cost of living.)

    Since I plan to leave my current role by the end of the year no matter what, is there best practice around giving super long-term notice? I hold a lot of institutional knowledge that will be hard to replace, and I know my boss and grandboss are building long-term structural plans around me being here for the foreseeable future. We have a very supportive culture so I know I wouldn’t be pushed out early, especially because they wouldn’t want to lose me (my grandboss has made counteroffers to leaving employees, so that would be her move rather than pushing me out.)

    Any insight or lessons learned from experience is very appreciated!

    1. Observer*

      What kind of track record does your employer have on this stuff? If they are good about working with people who are leaving, give the a nice long notice. Otherwise, keep it short.

    2. Artemesia*

      Long notices are dangerous. I would plan to give two weeks notice but also be very diligent about documenting the state of your work, procedures if you are a keeper of procedures etc etc so that transition is easy. If you have a lot of confidence in the integrity of your management and see others give longer notices and not be damaged by that, then consider giving a month to 6 weeks. BUT only if you know this is not going to hurt you.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      When I planned to move cross country and knew I was safe from being pushed out and would be hard to replace, I gave just under 3 months notice, thinking that would give my department the opportunity to at least start the replacement process, maybe even give me a week or two to train someone before I left.

      They hadn’t even gotten the job posted by my last day. Not my circus.

    4. Anon for This*

      Don’t put in your notice until the deal on your new house has gone through. I had an employee not qualify for his mortgage because when they called to confirm employment HR confirmed he was employed with us, but was leaving in two months. (He was interviewing in the new place, and planned to hang on with us until he had a new job lined up, but had alerted everyone to the situation for just the reasons you state.)

    5. RagingADHD*

      Don’t announce anything that doesn’t have a clear and definite timeline attached to it. In the meantime, start documenting the things about your job that need documenting and tying off all your loose ends.

      “I’m leaving….sometime” doesn’t enable them to do anything, because hiring and training require schedules. They can’t hunt for your replacement without some reference point for a start date. If you put management in a position where they have to plan the dates themselves, because you aren’t telling them anything definite, then you will wind up getting pushed out just because they have to make a decision at some point.

    6. New Mom*

      I would recommend anywhere between 1-3 months depending on your need to be employed until you leave and your relationship with your employer. Also, do you want to do consulting work with them after you leave (also, do they want this?) because you could offer to stay until you move and then stay on as a consultant to support with certain projects until they have a new person onboard.

  46. Optimistic Prime*

    I am looking for recommendations for how I can pick up some WFH data entry work or something similar. I already have a full-time job, but I have a lot of free time and I need the money.

    1. Pascall*

      You may want to look around at local nonprofits and see if anyone needs assistance with their donor database! If you have at least a little bit of clerical background and know-how and a reliable resume, they may be willing to bring you on on a contract basis to assist with data hygiene or clean-up in their system. It’s hard to know who to ask, but it never hurts to try and reach out to their development department or person, if you can find out who that is.

      I do this part time for an NPO that I left (due to personnel problems with my supervisor at the time) for a new job. They have a new development team that I enjoy working with on a contract basis and I’m assisting them with their data maintenance and entry. Smaller nonprofits are more likely to need more help.

    2. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I once hired someone from Fiverr for short term data entry/research per project work. Upwork is similar I believe. Sometimes local job boards or local focused options like Craigslist have part time work.

  47. Andjazzy*

    For the first time in my life, I’m not in a cube. I have an office with a door. A big office, too. It’s amazing!

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      So I stumbled into this situation myself (office with a door for the first time in my life), and I have a question that’s been amusing and perplexing me:

      Was your office a perk of a promotion?
      And if not: “How many people think you’ve gotten a promotion?”

      Because even those who freaking know better here allude to “moving on up!” or something similar. Its not a promotion – I just have the proper space to do my actual job now, after 18 months, where before I stumbled with a too small too open cube.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        I mean, I’d probably say “Moving on up!” or something similar to acknowledge that you’ve upgraded from a too-small cube to an actual office regardless of whether I thought you were promoted or not. Upgrading spaces is still moving up, technically, just not because of a promotion. It’s possible your coworkers are just trying to awkwardly congratulate you and/or live vicariously through you.

        But I’m also just a random internet commenter so please feel free to disregard! You know your colleagues better than I do. :)

        1. NotRealAnonForThis*

          I’m going to go with “the same department? You’re probably correct, there’s probably some awkward congrats in place as I was the only one NOT in appropriate workspace before, and I bet there’s some teasing in there too because we are ALL buttheads like siblings some days”. The other department? Well, they’re kind of clueless as a whole, so its probably more thinking I’ve actually gotten a promotion.

          Its awesome being able to close the door.

    3. Neosmom*

      In the late 1990s, I had an office manager job and the general manager asked me what I liked most about it. I told him, “Four walls and a door!”

    4. no sleep for the wicked*

      Congrats!
      I’m in that same boat myself. It’s pretty cool, but even though 90% of my job can be done remotely 80% of the time, I feel obligated to be onsite more because of the optics of ‘rewarding’ a staffer with a fancy office that sits empty.

    5. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      So lucky. It’s weird but in my career I went backwards with that.
      After working many years with shared offices (not cubicles but 2-3 people in a large office each with our own desk), as a graphic designer/manager I had offices of varying sizes to myself. Then at my previous director-level job, I was removed from my very nice office to a cubicle to make way for a man (who had an office at 2 locations no less!). When that company moved, I was then placed in the open office space with the interns and admins. I quit that place.
      Next job I had a nicer large cubicle, but then we moved to open office/hot-desking. Ugh! 30 years of climbing the corporate ladder and you’re downgraded. The pandemic has been good for one thing and that is WFH. I will never go back to that shit.

  48. MizChiffon*

    Y’all, I put in my notice this week; my last day will be next Friday. I’ve only been at this position for a few months, but it’s been such a bad fit and I’ve been miserable to the point of it affecting my health that I just said enough. I’m good at the job and I’ve been getting great feedback from upper management, but the relief I’m feeling over not having to do it after next week tells me I’m doing the right thing for myself.

    One of my coworkers reached out to me after they found out and told me that my decision helped validate what they were feeling about the role. It’s not exactly a toxic work environment, but it does come with negativity pretty much constantly and my (and it turned out, their) need to make everyone happy did not mesh well.

    I know I’m fortunate to be in a position to be able to leave a job without another one lined up and take some time to figure out what’s next. If you’re in a similar situation and you’ve been thinking about it, maybe I can be that little bit of validation for you too. Cheers!

  49. Still a Temp*

    I’m currently a temp, and this week after finishing a short term contract I had it extended indefinitely. I was absolutely thrilled—I like the work and my coworkers, I have a very positive relationship with the manager and am so appreciative she wants to keep me around, the schedule and location work really well for me. I was beyond excited for some long term stability—and maybe even a path to a permanent job!

    Unfortunately, literally the day after I got my contract extended, I learned from the manager the location I’ve been working at will close at the end of February. The manager said she will try to find other work for me but there’s no guarantees. I am, hopefully understandably, absolutely devastated.

    The problem is that my job is public facing, so I can’t be sad/anxious about this privately in a cubicle, but I’m having an incredibly hard time putting on my typical “helpful, cheerful and proactive” persona when working with the public now. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. New Mom*

      I’m so sorry. I would say that if you have the weekend off, just let yourself be sad about this. Don’t try to bury your feelings. When you are off work do something that helps you unwind (call a friend/family member to vent, take a hot bath and get yourself a nice face mask and/or hair mask, go on a run, or veg out on the couch watching whatever to get your mind off it, and of course a little cry is okay too).

      If you allow yourself some time and space to feel your feelings it might be easier to grin and bear it at work. And good luck with your next job search. I’m sorry that this happened.

    2. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Start job searching. That’s the only advice that will actually help you right now. Be aggressive about it. Apply to jobs you don’t feel fully qualified for.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In the 70’s there was a poster that I adored. It was a picture of a pelican swallowing a frog. But the frog had his “hands” outside the pelican’s mouth and he was strangling the pelican. He could not see that he was successfully rescuing himself, only the viewer could see that he was winning. The pelican was physically unable to swallow the frog. The caption read, “never, ever give up”.

      Such is life. How often do we see that we are actually rescuing our own selves? Not that often.

      If for no other reason, keep your proactive persona going as a way of showing respect for your own hard work you have done right along. Tell Current You not to undo all the good efforts that Past You has done. Don’t let go of the pelican’s throat right now. You have gotten this far, it’s likely things will change for the better in some way. Be ready for that better change.

  50. CatCat*

    I had an interview yesterday that went very well and they already want to do reference checks. I know from the interview that they are planning to hire quickly. I clicked with the hiring manager and also know some people who know the hiring manager, who speak highly of them. The thing is, I won’t accept this job if I cannot get the top of the pay range. Not sure if I should bring that up now so as not to waste their time (or my references’ time). Thoughts?

    1. Leilah*

      If the company published the pay range and you know your expectation is within that range, I’m not sure it would pay to bring it up early. My personal opinion is that it would come off poorly.

  51. Meow*

    Nothing is remotely concrete, and I don’t have a lot of details yet, so I’m probably putting the cart before the horse here, but I was curious what others might think.

    A former coworker recommended me for a position at a large software company whose products I have a lot of experience with. The rub is… I think these products, and especially support for them, have really gone down hill since this company purchased them, and I am actually in the process of replacing them at my new job primarily because we are so dissatisfied with their customer service.

    The job itself however would be an amazing opportunity for me. It would be a huge pay increase, 100% remote, and the experience could be my foot in the door to later apply to companies whose products I feel more favorably about.

    So how do I navigate interviewing with a company who, as a customer, I’ve had a mostly negative experience with? Bite my tongue and stick to positives if they ask for my opinion?

    Of course I’ll still keep my eyes open for red flags, given that there is likely to be some correlation between customer satisfaction and employee satisfaction…

    1. Leilah*

      I always imagine my critiques as optimism – the reason I am dissatisfied is because I know whatever it is could be even better. However, if the role isn’t related to customer service, I wouldn’t bring it up. If they ask about your experience with their products and it naturally comes up that your company is moving away from those products and they ask why, you can be honest but not overly negative.

    2. Distractinator*

      Hard to tell from your question whether policy and intent is at all related to your job area, either from an execution point of view (you’d be in customer service or writing support documents) or a policy point of view (you’d be in meetings discussing product rollouts and market support). If so it could be a really interesting interview conversation – what changes were intentionally made with the acquisition and what was the reasoning behind them, what’s been the impact of those policy changes and was that intentional, what changes might be in the pipeline because of that?
      And when it comes to impact, you’re not just saying “customer service sucks now, why did you ruin it” you’re digging into cause and effect and intent: “wait times seem longer did the size of the department change” or “depth of knowledge seems weaker did you lose a lot of experience employees” or “conversations seem more brusque did you put a lot or weight on call times” or whatever. And then what you care about in terms of employee red flags is the consequence – what would it mean to be dealing with (a smaller department, enforcing call time metrics, etc)
      Or if this is not at all related to your expertise (you’re interviewing for a coding job or something) I wouldn’t plan on bringing it up explicitly, but I’d have a few comments ready to go – as above, not framing it as negative complaints, but as investigating what cultural shifts might have happened and how it would impact your role.

    3. pancakes*

      I think it is really, really unlikely that they’d ask candidates for their opinion of customer service during interviews. Or their broader opinion on the company in general. I don’t work in tech, admittedly, but I have never been asked anything along of the lines of “what do you think of us?” in an interview, and would expect that people who feel strongly negative wouldn’t be applying in the first place. Interviews are for finding promising candidates, not researching user or customer experience.

      1. Meow*

        I guess I could see it might come up in two places:
        1. They are a large company but not like, a household name. So when they ask me what I know about their company, my answer would be that I have been a long time customer and user of their products (and hopefully they wouldn’t make a comment like “oh, how do you like it?” but it wouldn’t be unheard of).

        2. They are specifically looking for candidates that have experience with this kind of specialty software, and I would expect “what products do you have experience with and what did you use them for” to be one of their first questions. I have been informally asked for my opinion on said software during this question before, although I’ve never interviewed by a company that makes it, so you might be right, it would probably be weird for them to fish for my opinions on their (and their competitors) products here.

        I might be overthinking it, I just don’t want to get caught off guard if they suddenly asked my opinion.

        1. All Het Up About It*

          Is there anything still good about the product? Because even if they are going down hill in some areas, but you still like a certain aspect of the product you can give your opinion on that.

          Or even if it’s something that has technically changed, you could still spin it. Okay so customer support has gone down hill, but it used to be awesome: “X company always was always known for such great customer support. That’s why my current company purchased their software originally.” All true. You don’t have to add “But that’s why it’s so disappointing that customer service has gone down hill and we are transitioning away.” You know how they say people don’t hear the second half of a sentence if you have a “but” in it? Skip the “but” and the second half.

          1. pancakes*

            I think this is a good approach. To the extent they do ask, it seems likely they’ll want to know about your familiarity with the product rather than current opinion of it. What it does in terms of functionality rather than how good it is vs. the competition, or vs. how good it used to be.

    4. urguncle*

      I have a feeling I know exactly who you are talking about and honestly, I just would put it out of my mind. Large SaaS companies that do well with little to no customer service do it because they have calculated the loss that they’ll take from mid and lower customer tiers and it’s not favorable for them to continue to support a cost center at the level that they would need to. Instead, they’ll sell their expertise to people who want to do that work for them. It’s not dissimilar to a gig economy.

      Mentioning it might make you sound like you don’t understand why they operate the way that they do, which can make you look like a clueless candidate, or one who will want to change things from the inside. If you do want to talk about your experience with their company, you can mention that the company that you work for used it but its no longer a good fit. Ultimately, though, you’re not interviewing because you love their products, you’re interviewing because you want a job at that company.

      Personally, I would not want to work for these kinds of organizations, but it seems like a means to an end for you rather than a goal.

  52. Ranch*

    Any advice for how to settle down in a career, stop going back for more advanced degrees in related fields, and be happy with where I am? I get bored and underchallenged very quickly and, even in a niche area right now, I still want more but I don’t know why. Thanks.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Can you find smaller, cheaper challenges to scratch the itch? Like one online course or certification vs a whole degree. Or cross-training in other people’s work.

    2. knitcrazybooknut*

      I have the same personality type — predictable jobs are anathema to me. The only thing that stopped me from being a job-hopper for my entire life was finding a job that was never predictable. I temped in HR for four months, and then another four, and then was hired permanently and stayed in HR for 12 years. Any time you’re dealing with people, you never know what’s going to step through the front door. I was specifically in payroll, but there are a lot of aspects of HR that can fit various personalities. It’s not for everyone, but the variety kept me going for a long time.

    3. Leilah*

      I fixed it by becoming my designated team trainer. Somehow teaching other people about what I do has scratched my itch to learn more myself (also listening to podcasts that teach me things all the time!). Every trainee is also a new challenge, which helps.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Do all of those things have to be mixed up together? I was a full time student and full time employee for ten years, so when I finished my intended educational goals, I was kind of adrift — so I just kept taking classes part-time. It’s not a financial hardship for me, and I don’t necessarily need to do anything with them — right now I’m meandering my way through an associate’s in paralegal studies for funsies, but it doesn’t have any direct impact on my career, my hobby of taking college classes is a separate thing that keeps my brain engaged and entertained, and I think that’s okay.

    5. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      Have you considered seeing this trait as a strength and finding a role where you are constantly challenged? I’m in awe of some people I work with who manage change/projects as the fact they are always dealing with issues/never truly reach an end point is my idea of a nightmare – but could be a dream to someone else.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This. Or some kind of consultant or project-based work where the general parameters and skills are similar, but the specifics are really different on each new project.

        2. Marketing Middle Manager*

          +1 to consulting. Every project will be different and it’s pretty easy to move around internally if you get bored. Some consulting companies love to hire people with academic backgrounds, even if they studied a very different field. They’re specifically looking for people with restless intellectual curiosity.

    6. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      My advice: NEVER SETTLE! I’m like you! I love academia and get bored super easily. There’s nothing wrong with this, you do not need to be fixed! We just have a certain personality type, and that’s that. I’d say make a compromise with yourself that you’ll stay in one place for a year and then you can move on to the next thing. Or… why not get a PhD from a program that will subsidize your tuition and give you a job teaching or doing research? That will keep you busy for a few years and then you can reassess what you want, while scratching your itch to learn. And you’ll come out of it with a doctorate!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      How’s things going on the personal side of life?

      Don’t answer here, just mull it over.

      See, it’s normal and healthy to set goals and work on those goals. Keep that part. But start thinking about how you can leverage your established career life to benefit your personal life. What would you like to beef up on the home front? And this can be anything- dog, house, volunteer work, exercise, hobby, or any other thing you can think of.

      It’s pretty healthy, normal to want to grow oneself. Work becomes an obvious place because food/shelter/etc. But if we focus on the work side of our existence we can accidently skip over the private side of our existence which is actually equally and probably more important than work.

  53. Potential HEO*

    This is pretty niche, but I’m happy to take advice from other perspectives too. I’m in the UK and have been offered a job in the civil service, unsurprisingly for a lot less money than I make in my equivalent job in the private sector. That’s fine by me; I’m happy to take a pay cut and I knew the pay band when I applied. But it’s still a lot of money to lose and I think I was a great candidate. I easily checked all of the “Desired” requirements as well as the “Essential” ones, the interview went great, and they came back with an offer in 24 hours. My question is how likely is it that I could negotiate the salary within reason? I know that civil service is very rigid on this and I have no idea how exceptional I’d need to be to change the offer. Is it a bad look to even try?

    1. Leilah*

      If it’s very rigid, and the hiring team are reasonable, the appropriate response from them would be to apologetically tell you they have a cap of $x. If they are at all competent, they know the reality of their situation is not great already and wouldn’t hold it against you to at least ask.

    2. PX*

      I’ve seen some people talk about this, my understanding is that like many governments around the world, civil service positions are in bands/grades. So you could ask about coming in at a higher band if you are overqualified for this one? Or depending on what they offered you, is it at the top of the pay band already? If not, would hitting that number be any better?

      I think you can certainly ask at least, if nothing else to get some understanding/clarity on how it works.

    3. star*

      Congratulations! In my civil service organisation, new starters come in at the bottom of the pay scale, there is a small wiggle room to add something at the bottom of the scale, and there are no pay rises. Now is probably your only chance to negotiate?

      I was able to negotiate my starting salary to the top of the band by providing documented evidence of my (much higher) previous salary. It helped that I was a rapid recruit (temporary) at first; I was able to use that as leverage when I interviewed for my permanent role. It involved a business case to get it approved. This level of paperwork is beyond something I’ve ever had to do as a manager (SEO/ G7) and am only aware of because it happened to me – I’m not a budget holder at all at my grade.

      I wouldn’t find it rude if you attempted to negotiate, but I’d think you weren’t aware of civil service norms. As a manager I might think “look for SEO opportunities for this person soon” if you were good.

      PX suggested asking for the next grade up – in my organisation that would be a separate interview process, if there was even a vacancy at all.

  54. ecnaseener*

    TLDR: How do you write a great interview follow-up note if the nature of the job means you didn’t talk about anything very interesting?

    I had a job interview this week and remembered Alison’s advice on writing a good thank-you note by following up on things you talked about. I pulled up her articles and the great examples, and…realized there really wasn’t any conversation in my interview worth continuing. We hadn’t talked about open-ended things like strategy or vision or how I could fix their problems, it was really just about my experience doing this work, our respective preferences for management style / work environment (fine match, not anything worth emphasizing).

    Do you think this is a sign of a lackluster interview? Or should I have been able to come up with something interesting to say about “yeah I can totally do this work that you need someone smart and reliable to do.” (Don’t spare my feelings, I’m pretty sure the job is not for me and it’s quite possible they agree.)

    1. ecnaseener*

      Omg and I forgot my PS: Big thank you to this commentariat! I needed advice earlier this week and turned to Reddit…hooo boy, the people who responded just did not get the concept of “interviewing to find out whether I even want the job.” People here are so smart and helpful!

    2. Waffle cone*

      Did your interviewer talk about themselves at all? I just sent a thank-you note and was able to reference some of the things she mentioned, like his department being the annual chili cookoff winners or some such. That was not the real example but you get the idea. Something to show that you were listening, you’re engaged, and that you have enthusiasm for the position. That’s all you need.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Not much. But even with referencing a personal factoid, I feel like that doesn’t get at Alison’s advice to actively strengthen your case by talking more about the ideas you discussed in the interview.

    3. Defective Jedi*

      I think a generic interview deserves a generic follow-up note – especially for a job you’re fairly sure you don’t want. Jot something down, hit Send, and move on.

  55. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    what’s the most annoying/funniest/strangest thing your officemates have done? Remote workers too. Today my human office mate is great, she promised Starbucks this afternoon. On the other hand, the other officemates have bothered her so much that she kicked them out of her work area! Then I had to put on birds on YouTube for them so as to be left alone. Spoiled furry butts!

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My personal furry staff member normally knows when I’m working and doesn’t bother me unless IT HAS BEEN LUNCHTIME FOR SOOOOOO LONG. Yesterday she would not leave me alone when I still had an hour or so to go.
      Finally I figured out that I had wrapped up in her Favorite Wooly Blanket, so I dropped one end over her on her chair, and didn’t remember doing it until hours later when the chair started purring.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      I only have one office mate today. He’s been napping on my feet for the past hour, which is fabulous because it’s cold, but eventually he’ll need to move so I can get some lunch. He’ll probably beg for scraps, but fortunately has enough manners not to lick my sandwich if I turn my back!

    3. RussianInTexas*

      One of my furry coworkers comes in to my office, stands behind my chair, and breathes loudly. If I don’t notice he starts knocking on the back of my chair. Then he rolls over for belly rubs.
      He is a cat.

    4. SofiaDeo*

      I was in charge of my department’s new software build/training of a regional company wide upgrade. People were really, really resisting the changes. Someone was overheard commenting in the department lunchroom “my car tires should be slashed”. And someone did.

  56. Heffalump*

    One for the “angry boss writing angry memos” file. A few days ago I was cleaning up my home email database and found the following, which I’d forwarded to my home email at the time.

    From: [CEO]
    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6: 41 PM
    To: All [name of company] Users
    Subject: Internet Abuse

    This is a warning that has been sent out many times in the past, but today I am going to warn everyone for the last time. Internet use is not intended for personal use, but as I walk around the different areas of our company I continue to see people on the internet during regular work hours on web sites that have absolutely nothing to do with the work we do. Obviously, like everything else here at [name of company], our employees head our warnings just long enough until they think no one is watching or cares anymore. Well, I am looking and I can tell you that I am not going to allow any employee to waste company money during their work time to search the internet. This is totally against company rules and it costs the company thousands of dollars over the course of a year, so because we have folks that don’t think this matters I am not going to be tolerant of this anymore.

    In fact, I am looking at software options that will control the use of the internet by our employees. Yes, those of you that do not abuse the system will be effected by those that fell it is OK to waste the companies money. This is unfortunate actions to take, but I am convinced that the abuse will never end unless this drastic action is implemented. Until this software is put in place I am giving fair warning to everyone that if you are caught on internet sites that are not business related during regular working hours I will enforce that strict disciplinary action be imposed.

    There was actually a back story here. An employee in a customer-facing job had been on the phone with a customer when midmorning break time came. Of course she couldn’t tell the customer, “Break time here, I’m leaving you high and dry,” so she finished taking care of the customer’s concern. Then she took her break and went on the internet briefly. She was complying with the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

    One of the company’s Glassdoor reviews said the guy could often be heard yelling at people. I personally didn’t have much direct contact with him, but it was certainly believable. He once kicked off a quarterly company-wide meeting by snarling, “If you don’t like it here, don’t let the door hit you in the ass!” This was not the only example of his all-around disrespect for people. You’ll have noticed that spelling and grammar weren’t his strong suit. I’m glad to say I left this company some years ago.

    1. CatCat*

      Epic. I wonder what the staff turnover costs were for having such a heavy-handed, unpleasant CEO who doesn’t know how to manage vs. occasional internet use unrelated to work.

      1. Heffalump*

        I had forwarded this to another coworker who had the company some months earlier, and he wrote back, “He was the main reason I left the company,”

        The “employees behave themselves when they think no one is watching” line really infuriated me. I have very low tolerance for tarring everyone with the same brush.

        The guy had originally been in sales and at some point he decided that he wanted to go back to sales. One day another coworker and I were standing around a 3rd person’s cube discussing something. I’d been away from my cube (and therefore my email) for several minutes. Suddenly the coworker whose cube it was said, “Fergus has resigned–wow, Heffalump, did your face ever light up!”

        At first I took “resigned” to mean he was out of the company entirely, but not having him as CEO was good enough for me. His predecessor and successor were both decent guys. For my money he wasn’t a very good person, and I don’t say that often or lightly.

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      ::snort:: I’m reminded of long ago “malicious compliance”. TPTB put internet filters/blockers in place for the reasons right there mentioned. And they went about it in a way that can be described as “allow only the following websites” rather than “exclude websites that have .xxx in their headers” or “block limewire” or similar”.

      We were to report every single blocked site we needed access to (and this was the late 1990’s/early 2000’s) but were unable to access to TPTB personal assistant. In person. And because they’d set it up so specifically…each link on a webpage was a separate submission. It took less than a 40 hour week for my department to completely break the system as we were rewriting a manual, and much of what we needed was not searchable on the internet with the filters in place.

  57. Just a name*

    Retiring and my boss doesn’t seem interested in how we are going to transition. I’m retiring in late March, filed my paperwork in early December, have been telling him for a few years that I’m going as soon as I am eligible, he knows my husband retired last fall…yet mostly crickets. We discussed the job so he could post the opening but there are some things I do that will need someone to oversee before the new person arrives. My job hasn’t been posted yet, and it usually takes months to hire. I guess all I can do is draft directions and other turnover as best as I can. I guess I worry that there will be a last minute flurry of questions, but that’s probably what will happen. I guess I don’t need to worry about it if he isn’t worried.

    1. Colette*

      I’d say at in February, you should start asking who will take over various tasks. If you need a long time to train someone, ask at the beginning of the month, but realisitically, the end of February is probably soon enough.

    2. Artemesia*

      the only real decision you need to make is to be unavailable for questions after the first month after you leave. Take a couple of days to get back (no phone pick up — just respond to email) and after x amount of time, let the boss know, you don’t have time to consult and then start ignoring the emails.

    3. Distractinator*

      Do all your coworkers know you intend to retire? Maybe some of them have transition ideas that your boss wouldn’t necessarily think of. If you just volunteered on a team meeting that you’d be happy to talk with anyone about passing information off, that could help.

    4. Asenath*

      When I retired, I expected that it would take a while to replace me, given my employer’s hiring practices, and even though I gave plenty of notice that’s exactly what happened. All I could do was make sure I left good notes on all my practices. So that’s what I did, and didn’t let myself worry about it – not my problem; their problem. I’ve done what I could.

  58. Anon Today*

    Among a host of other functions, I handle the IT equipment for a smaller retail company. I have no management authority or power, just the purchasing authority and keys to the supply closet where spare equipment is kept. A newer worker came to me and asked that a cash register keyboard be swapped out, as they have a disability that makes them unable to depress the keys on the older mechanical keyboard that was present at the register.

    I made the swap without a question (we had a new keyboard that was low pressure which had just never been put out before), and in doing so, inadvertently kicked off The Great Keyboard Wars. Other employees apparently perfer the mechanical keyboard, and keep putting it back. I’m concerned about things escalating beyond people just handing me the keyboard and saying “they’ve switched it back to the good one”, but the worker who asked for the low-pressure keyboard hasn’t disclosed their disability to anyone else on staff or our management. Earlier this week, someone retrieved the mechanical keyboard from the dumpster to replace the low pressure one.

    Do I need to tell management about the disability because I know about it, and this keyboard would fall firmly within reasonable accomodations under the ADA if a formal request had been made? Does the worker who asked for it have to say anything? If I tell them, do I need to out my disabled coworker, or can I just say “someone has asked for this?” Do I need to say anything to the other workers? Anyone have any suggestions or advice on what to do in this situation?

    1. Artemesia*

      Is it easy to switch out so that the employee who needs it can just pull it out and plug it in? Perhaps discuss the issue with them and ‘give it’ to them to use when they are on duty.

    2. not a doctor*

      You don’t need to say who asked for it. Just say that not everyone can use the old keyboard and as much as they may like it, it’s being given an honorable and permanent discharge.

      1. Observer*

        That’s not a really good solution. It IS going to upset people, and with good reason. And if there is someone with carpal tunnel syndrome or something like that, what’s been going on so far is going to be a prelude to the REAL keyboard wars.

    3. Observer*

      All I can say is that SOMEONE needs to disclose or you need to find another solution. Because the coworkers are not being unreasonable here – those low pressure keyboards are extremely uncomfortable for a lot of people to use. Perhaps something like a KVM switch, but in the reverse to allow people to use whichever keyboard they are comfortable with would work.

    4. Colette*

      Can you have a place for whichever keyboard is not in use so they can swap it out?

      If not, you need to raise it to management, and they need to make it clear that the new keyboard stays.

    5. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Not sure if this will actually work, but can you ask those people to swap the keyboard back at the end of their shift/whenever they’re done using it?

  59. I’m hiding from work*

    How do you deal with a coworker who’ll hang out talking after clocking out but you can’t leave until she does?

    I work in childcare and in my classroom I have my coworker’s child, and more often than not I get told that once she gets her kids I can leave. But when she goes to get her youngest she’ll end up talking to the teachers there she’s friends with and then I’m unable to get out on time and have to deal with her impatient two year old.

    And when she finally comes and gets her kid I still need to close the classroom and do all the things I can’t do with children in the room, this all leads to me clocking out 10-15 minutes late almost everyday. I’ve tried talking to my boss but she just gives me a vague answer and nothing has changed. Does anyone have a script or something that I could use?

    1. Artemesia*

      Have you told her ‘I need to clock out at 5:30 and when you hang out talking and Clyde is still in. my classroom it is making me late by 15 or 20 minutes every day. Can you come get him if you plan to be here after you clock out?’

      If you have tried that and your boss refuses to help then try escorting the child directly to her and telling her ‘ you need to watch Clyde so I can close out the classroom.’ If that doesn’t work then, well, pre-schools are having a lot of trouble staffing. There may be another place that would not abuse our time.

      This is a simple solution — your boss makes it clear that she has to collect her child when she clocks out. It is ridiculous that he hasn’t made this clear.

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      Just talk to your coworker! Something like “hey, would you mind picking up Pippin before you get Merry so I can start my closing duties on time?” Less professional but if she’s rude about it or it continues to be a problem I’d be really tempted to just be like “you know when you leave Pippin past his pickup time it means I have to stay longer, right?” because seriously, she should know better especially if her kid is usually your last one.

      Every daycare I’ve used or worked in had a fee associated with picking up your kid late, do you not have that? Is she getting a pass because she works there? I bet your boss wouldn’t hesitate to fine a parent who, say, arrived in the parking lot on time but stood chatting in the hall before signing their kid out, or used the bathroom first or whatever. If that’s an option and a polite request doesn’t work, ask your boss to enforce whatever late policy is in place for other parents and have her be the one to address it with your coworker, just like she would with anyone else who habitually leaves their kid in the classroom while they socialize.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Can you just take her child to her and leave them with her, then go back and close up your room?

      If her 2 yo is the last one in your room, you aren’t leaving anyone unattended. Take them to their mom! If nothing else, “let’s go look for Mom” can be something to do.

  60. Whataremydemands*

    I am pregnant. I am waiting to hear back from a job offer that I’m excited about. I also have been asked to write up my ideal job description at my current role, an attempt to make me happy. The problem is, I’m ok with the role, it’s the support surrounding it that’s the problem. I need to write up something in case I don’t get the other job (or it doesn’t pan out because of healthcare gaps or if they don’t offer maternity leave before 6 – 12 months), but I’m not sure what to say. So far, I’ve considered a flattening for all of my role to show we directly report to the VP. More visibility into changes to the teams we support (hiring decisions, reorg decisions) so we have more time to plan out how to continue supporting. Compensation for learning an entirely new tool, migrating our teams and becoming de facto admin. More up front conversations about upcoming work so that I can plan better or help assign out work.

    Essentially, I’d like to manage the team I’m on, but I feel odd asking directly for that. I also believe the female/male dynamics I’ve seen won’t allow for that (another major factor in me hoping I’ll get another job).

    1. preggotoo*

      I’m in a similar situation, but you may be a step ahead of me on talking with your current job. I am interviewing and have a pending offer that isn’t great. I think I need to talk to my current supervisor and grandsupervisor about how to improve my satisfaction with this job (the hours, pay, etc are all right). How did you start that conversation?

  61. Alternatives to "I'm Sorry"*

    Part of the feedback to the Medical Issues letter yesterday was that people with chronic illnesses don’t want to hear “I’m sorry” whenever sharing their diagnosis with other people.

    Does anybody have good alternatives to use instead? I tried googling and got lists that were relevant for loved ones, but if I told a coworker “you’re in my heart” that wouldn’t fly.

    Is “Thank you for sharing” appropriate? It feels a little blase to me, but I’m struggling,

    1. londonedit*

      A while back I told a friend about an issue I was facing and I really liked their response, which was ‘I didn’t realise you were working with the additional challenge of [issue] on top of everything else; that sounds really tricky’. I really liked the ‘working with the additional challenge’ phrasing and I wonder whether something like that could be useful in this sort of situation.

    2. not a doctor*

      As someone with a chronic illness, “thank you for sharing that with me” would be fine with me. I’m not sure why, but simply “thank you for sharing” reads as sarcastic (well, maybe because it’s often employed sarcastically).

      Honestly, not reacting at all would also be just fine and dandy. Or just a simple acknowledgement, if it’s in response to something like an invitation. “Oh, OK, understood.”

        1. Fikly*

          Actually, yes, in most contexts, asking a person what they would like as a response is an appropriate response, if you are unsure, as it gives them agency.

          What I do, typically, is to say I’m not sure what response is what they want/need, here are a few ideas I have, any or all of the above are fine with me, they are welcome to suggest something, turn them all down, or if they are not sure, that’s fine too. It lets the other person know that not knowing is safe, gives them a few options because it can be easier to choose from something than nothing, and above all, is respectful of them.

          1. RagingADHD*

            If we are talking about contexts like the letter mentioned at the top of this thread, where the person isn’t indicating any need for support or making a personal confidence, then no.

            In most contexts where someone mentions a chronic condition, it’s simply an FYI.

            Asking “what kind of support do you need” is wierdly condescending when there has been zero indication that they need or want any support from you at all.

    4. Minimal Pear*

      Honestly my ideal response is “that sucks dude let me know if you need help with anything” haha

    5. RagingADHD*

      Honestly, I think the takeaway from that letter was that the LW and SOME people with chronic illnesses don’t want to hear the specific words “I’m sorry,” but overall most people with chronic illnesses (like me) just don’t want the other person making a routine statement of fact into an emotional transaction when it doesn’t need to be.

      In my book, “I’m sorry” is a very minimal, non-intrusive expression. It is so commonplace that’s it’s not a big deal, so it’s not worth parsing out some potentially perfect phrase. That’s too much emotional energy already.

      Context matters. If someone is confiding in you that they are upset or struggling because of this condition, then “thank you for sharing” or “you’re in my heart,” or “how can I help” is appropriate, because it makes sense in response to what they said.

      If they are just letting a colleague know something about logistics (like yesterday’s LW), then you should treat that the same as a colleague telling you they need a wheelchair ramp. It’s just a fact. Getting super personal about “your heart” or expressing condolences just doesn’t make sense and could be oddly intrusive.

      Just don’t make it harder than it has to be. Don’t make it weird. If finding an alternative to “sorry” makes you have to think about it real hard, then just use sorry and get past it. There are no brownie points for giving a perfect response.

    6. SofiaDeo*

      I think it depends on the context.

      If it’s as off hand as commenting that the reason they can’t do X is because…….(whatever), your response could be a simple “oh, ok”. Insert (I have my monthly bloodwork for my leukemia) (It’s my turn to pick up my kid) (I have to take my car in early to fix something). No need to actually comment on their disease.

      If the person is upset/seems stressed, and is not a total stranger but a coworker/neighbor, that may be trickier. When someone complains/comments to me they can’t do X because, say, their MS is acting up again, I might respond “oh no, sorry to hear that.” Somehow, there seems to be a difference between saying “I’m so sorry ” and “sorry to hear that.” But it could just be my area of the world. And I try to be sensitive to cues from people who appear to Want to converse more about their issues/challenges, versus those who are just giving an explanation/reason but don’t want to talk about it.

      I worked in healthcare though, and patients occasionally would make comments/want to talk. So those “strangers” were job related. Nowadays, if say, I am waiting at the doctors or the pharmacy and a random person confides something (I have one of those faces strangers confide things to) I’ll use neutral if not sympathetic comments like “oh no” or “sorry to hear that” or “you have some challenges, for sure” depending on what they said.

      If it’s someone sharing in a way that makes me think they are confiding as a friend, my response is different. Sometimes “I see” or “that must be challenging ” or “oh dear” and them let them vent/guide the conversation.

      This is really difficult, because you don’t know if they are coming from a new diagnosis/shock/unsure what to say, or someone who is further along the diagnosis, not emotionally upset when saying it & is telling you more for a reason/explanation for something. The latter are good with an “oh, OK” IMO.

      1. SofiaDeo*

        Sorry, it’s also appropriate for the former. You don’t have to take on the task of their confidante/help them process their diagnosis, as the OP was pushed into. “Oh” can be a complete sentence like “No”.

  62. Feeling Guilty*

    I work in event-based fundraising for non-profits and made the decision a few months ago that I was ready to transition out of the non-profit world for a bit due to burnout from the impact that the pandemic has had on our organization. I decided to make the transition into Corporate Social Responsibility work and started sending out resumes in November and have only now started getting interviews. While it’s likely a little ways off, my events all happen in May and if I were to get a job offer before then I would be leaving my team in a really bad spot. I’m feeling wildly guilty about it because of that and I’m close with our Executive Director. She got me this job a few years ago and I don’t want to burn bridges by leaving at a bad time, but I also don’t want to turn down a good opportunity. If I were to potentially leave six weeks before an event would that burn bridges? Should I wait even though my mental health is really struggling?

    1. Leilah*

      It’s possible that by the time your offers materialize, you can negotiate start dates further out. If your manager is a good human, they will understand though that you have to do what you have to do. If you sincerely do your best to be very organized and have all the materials ready and accessible for whoever fills in for you, and you give as much notice as you can without impacting your other job, they will know you weren’t being deliberately awful and they will survive.

    2. Stoppin' by to chat*

      Definitely take a job offer if you get it and want it. It can be more difficult to get into CSR positions, so definitely take an offer again if you want it. Depending on the timing, you could tell a new employer that you are running XYZ event for a non-profit, but could start and then name a date that both gives you time to wrap up the event AND take time for you. I would expect someone working in CSR to be open to that since supporting/partnering with local non-profits might even be part of their job!

  63. Forkeater*

    New one this week- has anyone else had this happen? I had two different companies I’d applied to reach out to schedule an interview- yay! But after I replied with my availability ghosted. Maybe it’s just slow or the recruiter got sick and hopefully I’ll hear soon but I’ve never had that happen before, normally when I’m invited to interview an interview actually gets scheduled. Is this happening to anyone else? These are higher level positions.

  64. Imaginary Number*

    How do you help someone “get faster” at their job?

    I’ve been quasi-mentoring someone who does similar technical work to what I do (in the same part of the business) and is really far behind on their deliverables. He has all of the skills and knowledge needed to do his job successfully, but is struggling with prioritization of tasks. The prioritization is an area where I think I can be of assistance.

    But the other problem is he just works … slowly. I don’t mean like procrastinating. He’s doing the work and spending the hours. I’m talking about literally moving slowly on his computer. If I’m helping him troubleshoot something and ask him to pull up a file or other simple task, it’s like he moves at a glacial pace. “Oh, that spreadsheet, hm … that’s over here. Oops, didn’t mean to click on that. Okay, let’s see …” *hovers with his cursor over the file for 10 seconds*

    My bosses are asking for feedback on how to help this person since I’ve been working with him one-on-one and other than “he needs help working on prioritizing tasks” which is only part of the problem.

    1. Leilah*

      Some people are just slow. I have an employee of three years, and there are certain jobs I just do myself because she takes twice as long and it impacts our work. I gave her almost a year of doing them independently before I decided it had improved as much as it could. She is just that kind of person, and I am a speedier-than-average person. You have to decide whether the job is the right fit and the trade-offs are worth it.

    2. Girasol*

      What gets measured gets done. Can you measure his speed and set him a target, like so X tickets processed per day? Or is it one of those tasks that can’t be measured?

      1. Imaginary Number*

        The work packages and scope of his responsibility are way to large of scope for that. We’re not really talking about a super junior person. He has all the expertise needed just not the speed.

    3. Purple Cat*

      Oof, that’s a tough one. And unfortunately there’s not much you can do about it. You can train them on keyboard shortcuts and other efficiencies, but if his general computer fluency is low and it’s not getting faster with practice, I don’t know if there’s any way to develop that.

      If your bosses are asking how to help this person then there is a red flag on his work output, does he realize that? People often don’t work to fix a problem unless there’s a big consequence staring them in the face.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Well, I’d focus on results instead of process: late deliverables. Have you asked him what ideas he has for how he can better meet his deadlines? And if he does not have any, are there any consequences (to him, personally) for failing to meet deadline?

      I often am slow and dither over my work, because my brain doesn’t kick into high gear without an external, concrete sense of urgency. I have tried for fifty years to find some way to hit the gas pedal with self-management techniques, psychology, motivational self-talk, skill drills, and everything else. Chemical enhancement helps to some extent, but I cannot make myself care about an imaginary or arbitrary goal when I know that it doesn’t really matter one way or another if I’m late. I can’t fool my own internal BS meter.

      The only thing that really “works” is definite incentives and consequences. If I get X by the deadline, I will receive Y. If I don’t get X by the deadline, I will lose face, get criticized, disappoint someone I admire, or lose my job. Real-world consequences flip the switch that I can’t flip on my own. Then I can get a ton of work done in a very short time.

      I don’t like it, I know it’s not good for me. But it’s not changing, I just have to work with it. Maybe you need to help him less, and incentivize him more.

  65. INFJedi*

    Tldr: How does one ask for their quarterly “paycheck” at a volunteer job?

    I’ve been doing a volunteer job for the past few years. A 4h shift/week sometimes two 4h shifts. Since a year, the organisation decided to pay an amount to cover the expenses (not much, about €15 a week, no matter if it is one or two shifts that week) and this would be paid every three months.

    Even though I don’t do this volunteer job for the money aspect, it is a nice welcoming gift every three months.
    The thing is, there is no pattern / schedule on the exact date when I receive the money. So far I haven’t received any money for the last quarter of 2021.

    And I have no idea how to ask about it, I don’t want to look greedy (since this is a volunteering job) but on the other hand, even that bit of money does make a difference for me because of the current inflation that is happening.

    1. I edit everything*

      Could you talk to your supervisor and just say something like, “Hey, we’re all grateful for that volunteer stipend–it really helps in a lot of ways. But I wonder if the pay date could be scheduled more reliably. It would help me plan, and would probably make accounting for [Organization] easier, too.”

      Alison’s advice to be breezy, “this is a really normal thing,” in attitude will work best for you, I expect.

    2. Distractinator*

      If you’re only asking about right now current paycheck, try a quick note – “do you know when accounts is planning to do volunteer checks? I’m planning whether to [frivolous thing] or not” Doesn’t have to be 100% truthful, it’s really just a filler because there’s no reason you *shouldn’t* be asking about paychecks, you’re just adding something cute/relevant/believable to soften the conversation. whether to… get the large or small cheese platter… fix the snowblower… take a weekend trip… buy that [thing you talked about in casual conversation]

      If you’re asking for a more regular schedule in general, other suggestion is great

    3. RagingADHD*

      If this is ostensibly an expense reimbursement, call it that. “Hey, are the expense reimbursements for Q4 ready yet?”

  66. Albeira Dawn*

    I just started working from home this month and I’m probably late to this party, but I discovered the joys of making my own cubicle walls out of IKEA pegboards. They can clamp to my desk, hold my headphones and pens and everything, and most importantly, they block my view of my comfy couch and my delicious food in the kitchen. Highly recommend.

  67. Skootaloo*

    My Sunday Scaries are getting increasingly gnarly and now are bleeding over into every day of the week. I never want to go to work, I am miserable and running late every morning because I just cannot get out of bed, and I am struggling to do anything but the bare minimum while I am at my job. I find myself almost wishing for COVID every week when I get tested just because it would mean some time off, and then I feel horribly guilty for even having that thought.

    This is my first office job, I’ve been here almost 4 years, and it’s by far the best job I’ve ever had (prior to this I worked food service and absolutely hated it). My coworkers and manager are incredibly supportive and have been super accommodating thus far of the mental health struggles, physical health issues and personal problems that have impacted me during my time here. But at this point, it’s still so hard and isn’t getting any easier, and I am starting to wonder if I am cut out for this working for a living thing at all. I can’t tell if it’s this job in particular or if ANY job would do this to me. Can anyone relate? Is this just what everyone is experiencing two years into the pandemic? Anyone else just need to vent/scream into the void?

    1. ferrina*

      Get. Out.

      Your body is telling you that this is not a good situation. I don’t know why, and it sounds like you don’t know why, but whatever is going on, it’s not right. It could be toxic in ways that you don’t currently recognize, but will be able to recognize later in life (after you leave this job). Or it could be a wonderful place with wonderful people that just isn’t the right fit for you.

      Start applying to jobs and schedule a week-long vacation to look forward to. Start working on an exit plan. Get that resume out- it can get easier as it goes. Come back here if you need advice on your job search or how to keep your spirits up (I used to buy a lottery ticker for every application I sent in. I figured sooner or later I’d get lucky, and it helped me keep going).
      Speaking from experience- Food service is it’s own beast, and it’s so ridiculous that almost anything can seem good next to it. But that doesn’t mean that other jobs don’t have issues.

      1. Skootaloo*

        I think you’re right, and I’ve been told the same thing by many friends and loved ones. I don’t think there’s anything particularly horrible about this job, just that something about it is not right for me and I need to figure out what exactly that is so I know what to look for in my next position. Thank you for the encouragement! Honestly I’ve been terrified of even considering job searching because it always feels like a bad time to do it, but I think I have to just accept that it will NEVER be a “good” time. And you hit the nail on the head about food service – it’s hard to even have a frame of reference for what a professional setting is supposed to be like because it’s just such another universe.

    2. not a doctor*

      Since you have physical and mental health struggles (and clearly this situation is having a severe impact on your mental health), can you confer with your doctor about going on FMLA leave?

      As for “this job vs. any job:” sit down with yourself and write out everything you do like about your job. Are there any duties you still enjoy? Is there a common thread between them? If you hate EVERYTHING you’re doing, is there another kind of role or task you’d be interested in trying out? Identify the things you could see yourself moving on to (maybe after a LONG break) and target those for your job search.

      1. Skootaloo*

        I’m just embarrassed because I’ve actually already taken FMLA leave twice at this job, though the last time was in March of 2021 and it was a dire emergency (ended up in the mental hospital and then doing some intensive outpatient treatment for about a month). I’m also worried about money, because I have very little savings and no real fallback plan right now. On top of all that there is a very large and critically important annual project coming up that I am in charge of this year. But an intermittent leave at least might be in order…the first two weeks of January we were partially virtual and I stayed home a few days a week, and it was much easier to show up and do my job on the days I WAS in.

        That’s an excellent idea about sitting down and writing out a list, there are definitely SOME things I still like about my job and maybe writing those down will help me figure out what to look for in a new situation.

        Thanks!

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          Yes … you and your employer want you to finish the project … so admit that you didn’t get all the way “fixed” last Spring, and work out a plan to stay put as best as you’re able right now, and if that plan doesn’t work, then deal with that when it comes.

          If you broke your leg and went out for a month, and then broke the other one 9 months later, would you feel so guilty and unentitled to time to heal?

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      You are absolutely not alone in this. Before I left my last job in June, I was right where you are – constantly late, dreading coming to work the next day before I’ve even left for that day, doing the barest of bare minimums to keep things going. For me, it was because my leadership was toxic, I’d been the only person in my department for months, was constantly bait-and-switched on job duties and when I’d get support, etc. The actual work was okay – not something I wanted to do forever, but I was good at it – but the people I did it for drove me absolutely batty. (My other coworkers were great! But when leadership is toxic and they’re who you work with most, the other coworkers can’t make up for it.)

      I agree with the advice to figure out what parts of the job (if any) you do enjoy, or maybe even at this point what parts you tolerate. I do think there’s probably some pandemic burnout in there, so try to compare this list to things you maybe liked/tolerated at your food service job(s) too for reference. Don’t be afraid to pitch what you’ve done as transferable skills rather than only looking at 1:1 job fits. I just accepted a new job and it’s nothing I’ve ever done before, but I was able to describe how my experience with X could translate well to their need for Y and highlighted cases where I’ve learned new things in the past, so they’re willing to take a chance on me and I’m willing to prove I wasn’t all talk.

      Scream into the void when you need to. Give yourself as much love and care as you can when you aren’t at work. Surround yourself with people who care and who believe in you (and make yourself one of the people who believes in you, even if you’re the hardest person to convince.) We’re all rooting for you!

  68. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I’m potentially days away from getting my dream job halfway across the company – not trying to get ahead of myself with excitement, etc. but based on conversations, it seems really promising that I might get this.

    I’m wildly excited to do what I’ve always dreamed of doing, BUT. I have an amazing boss and team and I will feel terrible leaving them. Our department has lost four people in the last few months and our health system is in crisis mode (I’m not a clinical employee but in a support role). I’ve recently been asked to potentially volunteer to move to a clinical support role to help out. This is not the best time to leave.

    Logically I know my boss – a super supportive and caring person – would be very excited and happy for me, but I need some advice – I’ve never left a great boss, only a fine boss or an only okay role, etc. How do you quit when times are tough and your boss is amazing? Trying to figure out how I can word this without swinging either too emotional or too blunt.

    How did you give notice to your great boss, if you had that experience?

    1. Sherm*

      I like to think of myself as a great boss (not sure if anyone agrees!), and I feel that the focus should be more on what you do, rather than what you say. Stay for your 2-week notice, or whatever the traditional notice period is in your area. Assist with the transition process and avoid “checking out.” Leave everything in good order, so your boss says “Yep, the TPS reports are where it was said they would be” instead of “Where on earth are the TPS reports?!” And if you do happen to know someone who might be great for the role, you could make the introductions (but don’t feel bad if you don’t).

      As for what to say, all the standard “It was a pleasure working here/I couldn’t pass up this opportunity/etc” is just fine. Good managers will realize that people leave jobs. It’s like the weather. You may not love it, but it’s part of life.

  69. new worker bee*

    (Sorry this is long!) How do you handle it when your boss makes a mistake but didn’t listen to you when you tried to stop them, and now everyone’s going to ask you about it?

    At the end of the day a few weeks ago, my boss asked me to research a particular product to buy for our coworkers. I got started the next morning. I learned that there were a lot of factors to consider and it would be easy to purchase things that were unsuitable or even counterfeit. I started to compile my findings into a report, but then my boss called me around lunchtime and said that he and my coworker had gone ahead and ordered the products because grandboss wanted it NOW. I gave up and stopped working on my report.

    When they started to arrive, I found that some of them were definitely counterfeit, some might or might not be, some were definitely unsuitable, and some were fine. I pushed back on the definite counterfeits, and we’re going to return those, and tried to push back on the unsuitable ones but was overruled and told they are fine.

    Now that it’s time to start distributing the products to coworkers, what do I say if they question me about them? My boss always says he likes to “handle problems in-house”, so he will probably be really mad if I tell the truth, “you are right to be concerned, I am too.” I could play dumb and just keep saying “you’ll have to ask Boss about that” but I don’t like the idea of getting a reputation for being just a flunky who can’t address peoples’ questions and isn’t smart enough to know about the products she distributes.

    Any advice? I’ve only been here 8 months and this is my first office job. At my old job I could have just flat out told my boss, “this is wrong” and he would have heard me out, but I don’t have the same connection with my new boss and there are so many more employees here (about 300 vs 13 at the old job) that it’s just a very different environment. What to say?

    Thanks for reading my comment.

    1. Distractinator*

      Well, it’s a problem you’re trying to fix (pushing back on poor quality items) and presumably the ones you’re distributing are adequate if not everything you’d hoped. You’re right it’s not a great look to just throw blame back on the boss, but you can acknowledge the choices he made especially if you use “we” instead of the accusatory “he”.
      “Here’s your new [headset or whatever], we tried to choose one that will meet everybody’s needs; schedule was important, so we tried to get the order out quickly and ended up with a few products that weren’t quite right. If this particular one isn’t working for you let [me, boss, etc] know what you need.”

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      It sounds to me that these are a safety item. I think any of the responses you’ve mentioned are fine and won’t get you a reputation as either a rabble-rouser or a pushover. “I wasn’t involved in ordering them.” “Well, I mentioned that to Boss but he had already placed the order.” “We did send back some obvious counterfeits but Boss asked me to distribute these ones.” “I understand, unfortunately I’m not sure where these ones were purchased.” “Yep.” Just… remain neutral and factual, and let more established coworkers raise their concerns if they want to.

    3. Observer*

      I could play dumb and just keep saying “you’ll have to ask Boss about that” but I don’t like the idea of getting a reputation for being just a flunky who can’t address peoples’ questions and isn’t smart enough to know about the products she distributes.

      You’re using some very loaded language here for a situation where it simply makes no sense. Is it your job to make these decisions? If not, then there is no reason you should have the answers. In fact, I don’t even see why anyone should be sharing their concerns with you. If they do, don’t “play” dumb – just honestly tell them that Boss made the order and the decisions around it were his. No big production, a simple factual direction to the person who can answer their questions.

    4. River Otter*

      Do not cover for your boss. Don’t throw them under the bus, but definitely do not cover for them. Just state matter-of-factly what happened, “Yes, I did notice that thing you were asking me about, grand boss was asking for things in a hurry so boss had to put in the order.”
      If you don’t want to name names, change it to, “yes, I did notice that thing you were asking me about, the order had to go in in a hurry.”
      Don’t say it in a gossipy way, don’t go into a whole bunch of detail about how you were going to make sure it was right with your report. Just stick to the facts and the matter of fact.
      In my many years of working, I have never found that covering for a decision that I was not responsible for to be a course of action that benefited me in the long run.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I agree with Observer that you are using extremely loaded language, so much so that I can’t tell how important it actually is that these products are unsuitable, and what “unsuitable” means in context. If these items are swag or a perk, and some of them are cheap or less useful, you don’t have to say anything really. They aren’t necessary for the job, they were ordered from different places, and got different lots. *Shrug.*

      If they’re a safety item that is necessary for the job, and being “unsuitable” means your coworkers are potentially at risk of being harmed, absolutely tell them to go to your boss and take it up with him. They should not go into harm’s way with unsuitable gear.

      If it’s a gray area, like these might be N95 masks that the company isn’t required to supply, but the boss wanted to get brownie points by saying “look, free masks!” Then I think that comes under the swag rule. They were ordered in a hurry, from different places, and this is what you got.

  70. Management fail*

    Y’all, I messed up as a manager this week and I feel terrible. My direct report has noted problems with the ways racism has shaped our workplace environment multiple times in the past. These are real problems ranging from the structural level to individual behavior, and have no quick and easy fixes, it’s not one bad apple. They mentioned these again in a big meeting this week. Afterward, my division director asked if said report, with *all four levels of all-white management,* could meet to discuss so we can address the work environment issues. (They were concerned that if we didn’t follow up, we would be ignoring specific problems in our department that they need to be addressing.) I said no way, that would feel intimidating, unsafe, and retaliatory. I offered to instead send an email saying the invitation is open to meet with any level of management along with resources for reporting outside of the supervisory chain, but the choice should be the employee’s of whether to talk further.

    I was hesitant about following up at all because thought direct report would basically say “why are you costing me more time and emotional energy for this, you should be aware what employees of color have told you about these issues already,” and that the issues we do know about are at a larger level than the big boss can easily fix. Trying to make it an email the employee could choose whether to respond to at all was my attempt to minimize the demand while addressing my management’s urgent request to meet. But direct report’s response made it very clear that even sending that email WAS a costly demand on direct report (that impacts their trust in me as well), and I realize I should have pushed much harder against management’s insistence on following up at all. I feel like my job is secure enough that I should have taken more of a risk, instead of trying to compromise between my management’s demands and my own judgment. I know better for next time – and there will be a next time – but managers learning by doing things that harm their reports is really not okay, people are not learning experiences.

    1. Daffodilly*

      Be gentle with yourself. Yes, people are not learning experiences. And if you had set out to create a learning experience for yourself at the expense of another person, you would be wrong.
      That’s not what happened here. Not even close.
      You are in a precarious position, caught between them. You wish you had handled it differently. So learn from it, give yourself grace so you don’t waste energy beating yourself up, and move forward with more understanding of yourself and the people around you.

    2. Observer*

      Explain what management actually wanted and that you were trying to buffer them and give them some agency. Yes, it was not a GREAT response, but given the choices you had, it was not you ignoring everything that they had brought up till then. Then acknowledge that you see that you should have pushed back harder, and that is how you will act moving forward. That acknowledgement and commitment is going to be the key here.

      It’s obviously not going to undo the all of the damage, but hopefully it will repair some of the damaged trust.

  71. Leilah*

    Advice on how to push back on extra work without seeming like a slacker?

    I normally love my job, but they did something pretty awful last week. We get a lot of after-hours emergencies, and they are the main reason people get burnt out and/or leave. I have suggested we work out an on-call rotation rather than what we are now, which is anyone could be called at any time. Instead management swears we can reduce the number of emergencies– this is clearly nonsense, and even if we could, it is not in our department’s control. After 8 months of no progress reducing emergencies, they have now launched at initiative to reduce burnout for people in my position.

    They did a terrible job at it. They forgot time zones exist, and accidentally told all the other groups that we would be in-office and available 12 hours a day, and anything in those 12 hours wouldn’t be an emergency. And they created a system where we all have to log every emergency contact we have. So they added to the workload and wildly extended our work hours (they swear they only want us to work 40 hours a week). And they already told all the other groups we would be doing it, and when it was brought up by us, they were just shocked and mumbled some stuff about just “working with our specific contacts to make sure they understand our personal work hours” — i.e., verbal permission to break the written plan, which to me feels both confusing and like they might not have my back if there is a conflict. So that requires me to imply that I don’t trust them to back me up.

    1. Ashley*

      Since they are saying you aren’t following it, a piece can be how do you want me to handle out of office calls / backup situations when I am out the office / unavailable / lacking cell service. A new hiking hobby or something else where you aren’t able to be reached is really helpful.
      If they revert back to the written plan, I would ask pointed questions, like what kind of schedule should I plan for since 5 days a week for 12 hours means a 60 hour work week. Are we staggering shifts? Maybe even propose a schedule you like with a few co-workers if it helps you are your life. Make it very much like of course our schedule is changing because of these actions.

      1. Leilah*

        The plan is already that if they can’t reach me, they can call anyone else on my team and vice versa. Which is kind of terrible because it means they try to reach someone and then wait an hour (in an emergency) and then try to reach the next person they pick. I tried to tell management how an on-call system would prevent that from happening, too, and be better for everyone, but they insist that we can just make sure emergencies never happen so I need to stop worrying about it. I cannot emphasize enough how impossible it is for emergencies to never happen in this business, and I have no idea why they think that is a reasonable expectation.

        Basically it went like this:

        *proposed plan is put on the screen, shows work hours of “7am to 5pm customer local time”*

        me: this schedule, because of time zones, means we start work anywhere from 4am to 6am depending on time zone and work 11-13 hours a day. Is that what you want us to do now? Because that would be a significant change.

        presenter: Oh. *stunned silence* Uh. No, we want you to work 40 hours a week.

        upper manager: of course if you already have set work hours that are working fine, just keep working those hours only.

        *quickly changes the subject and moves to the next slide*

        as the presentation is ending, the final slide shows us that this schedule was already shown to and agreed upon my the management of all the departments that we serve before being shown to us. Then the last thing they say is:

        presenter: “Please take this schedule and distribute it to the groups you serve. Their managers will also be distributing it to them.”

        me: so are we each editing this document to put in our own work hours before we send it to our people, since you told us not to change our work hours? I think it would be confusing to distribute a plan that says I start work at 6am when I don’t actually start work until 8am.

        upper manager: oh. um. I guess that might be okay? Thanks for your time everyone have a good day!

        End of meeting.

        I wanted to bring up that they will literally be hearing conflicting information from me and from their managers now, but it was like the fourth thing I had pushed back on in a single 30 minute meeting an I felt like a total jerk already (despite being absolutely livid).

        1. WellRed*

          Frankly I can’t follow the math here, but any chance that doing as they ask and the resulting chaos might cause them to revisit?

          1. anonAndOnAndOn*

            I interviewed for a new job recently, and it went well, but I won’t know if I’ll get the job for a while. I’m working on sending a follow-up thank you e-mail. The new job may at times compete somewhat with my old job. For the old job, I signed a non-disclosure agreement. I’ve just re-read the agreement, but as a non-lawyer, I’m feeling a little confused.

            For a software developer (which I am), what are the important things about an NDA? I think I should notify my prospective employer about this (I didn’t think about bringing it up in the interview).

          2. Leilah*

            I only have verbal instructions that it’s okay to work 8am to 5pm. There is all sorts of stuff in writing now in the hands of many groups telling them I’ll be working 6am to 6pm. When the chaos ensues, I look like the bad guy, that’s my worry. It would potential damage my relationship & reputation with the people that are my primary working partners, and do I trust that my bosses will have my back when I get called out? The people I serve don’t cross time zones, and they are hourly with overtime and regularly work 70hr weeks, and often start their days at 4am, so they aren’t going to have any sympathy for me trying to stick to an 8am to 5pm schedule. (I am salaried)

  72. Coenobita*

    Please hit me with your tips and resources for U.S. federal job applications. I am a full-grown adult with a master’s degree and 15 years of professional experience and I can barely even figure out the usajobs resume builder. Help!

    1. Stevie Budd*

      The main advice I have is that if there is a list of questions where you have to rank your experience, do not be humble. I don’t advocate lying, but if you can at all plausibly select the higher option, do it. In many cases, these questions are used by HR to select the candidates who are forwarded to the hiring manager. The hiring manager generally does not have much ability to get anyone else that was not selected by HR.

    2. Overeducated*

      Put it all in. Don’t worry about going over 1-2 pages. Get everything in there. Make sure you include the number of hours per week worked – having that qualifying experience in terms of hours/months/years is critical. If possible, and for a GS job, try to estimate the GS-level equivalent of your non-federal work experience, and definitely use language from the job description in your resume if you can so HR reviewers can mark you qualified easily.

    3. Kay*

      I would recommend a couple things:

      1. Set your deadline, and then do a follow up a set amount of time before reiterating it. If the deadline for getting you info is 5pm on Friday, send a reminder email at noon on Wednesday that any events need to be to you by 5 Friday – then stick to it, anything not received by 5pm is not included.
      2. Is it possible, in addition to #1, to send around an unformatted version of the calendar during the Weds reminder for example? With a note like – please send your corrections, anything not on this draft received after 5pm Friday will not be included in the final edit? If they have formatting input that you take into account on the draft this changes things.

      Doing the above negates any need to have a conversation with anyone about chain of command – you are a volunteer and this is the timeframe you need to work in. You could preface doing the above with telling people that this is due to the increase in last minute changes, making it difficult for you to get the work done, so you are letting everyone know how it should be handled going forward.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Agree with Stevie Budd – if you can plausibly check the top box, do so. When they say you need specific experience, quote the language back at them – e.g., if it says must be an expert llama groomer. Say “I am an expert llama groomer as demonstrated by my certification, five years experience…: Don’t say something like I have significant expertise and am outstanding in grooming llamas – in cases where there are a lot of candidates a computer might do the first sort, and you want to be sure you capture the search term. Answer all questions fully. And yes, feel free to upload your own resume even if it duplicates what is in the government form – HR and hiring managers have different preferences. If you are a veteran, upload all that info so you get veterans’ preference. If you are not, understand you may be competing with people who do have such preference, so may not make a cert even if you are highly qualified and have lots of relevant experience.

  73. CW*

    How do you handle technical questions during a job interview? Because to be honest, I don’t remember everything I learned in college, even though I had good grades. And any time an interviewer asks such a question, I always blow it. I hit a new low just now during a Google Meet interview, when an interviewer asked me for a definition and a concept relating to my background. I hesitated for 5 seconds and got nervous as hell, and abruptly left the Google Meeting. Yes, I know it was a terrible move, but I got really scared like a deer in the headlights. I didn’t want to ramble on about nonsense and I really didn’t know what to say. What should I do?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Say “I would have to look that up,” ideally with specifics about where/how you would look! No job I can think of requires you to work without resources, so a halfway decent interviewer will be fine with a candidate who knows how to FIND the answers they don’t already have.

    2. Haha Lala*

      With technical questions, the interviewer is usually looking for how you would approach the question and the steps you would take. Or they might also be trying to judge your familiarity with the topic, and make sure you didn’t make up parts of your resume.

      If you know the topic but can’t come up with a specific definition on the spot, be honest! “Oh, that’s tricky to define in a few words.” and then give an example of work you’ve done in that topic or something you do know about it.

      If it’s something you really don’t know, try to relate it to something else and ask them a question.– “I’m not familiar with XYZ. Is that a similar process to ABC?”

      The more you do this the easier it’ll get, so I’d also look into other ways to build up your public (or video) speaking confidence.

    3. River Otter*

      I study my résumé before the interview and make sure I remember all the technical details of everything I did, and I study up on the things that I haven’t done in a while.

    4. Purrscilla*

      I have a cheatsheet of basic info that I might be asked in interviews, which I review before going to an interview.

      If I get a question like that that I can’t answer on the spot, I write it down and look up the answer later. And add it to my cheatsheet, so I can do better the next time.

      Also, interviewing is a skill like anything else – if you do more of them, you will get better at interviewing. :)

  74. Don't Call Me*

    Poll: The last time you were asked to interview after applying for a job, were you contacted to set up the interview via e-mail or phone?
    Hiring managers: which contact method do you use for that first contact?

    The last four jobs I have had, three asked me to interview via e-mail, but my current job called me.
    I recently applied for a job and next week I will be traveling internationally and I am wondering if I need to proactively tell this company that I temporarily can’t be reached by phone…

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      Almost always email, but I’ve had phone calls. If you haven’t had contact with them yet, changing your voicemail message to say you’re traveling X dates and won’t have phone service, but can be reached by email, should be sufficient I’d think.

  75. Why is this research so hard? Is it me? It might be me.*

    Hoping someone here may be help with a specific question that’s driving me bonkers, and I’m embarrassed to even be asking, because I feel like I don’t even know how to phrase the question!

    It’s about influencers (I know, I know, but it’s for research and I need this gig):

    I’m trying to find social media influencers who have posted about certain pop culture brands and who have gotten lots of engagement (that’s the word, right?).

    I have found a lot of services – free and paid – offering data on influencers, which would be great, but you need to know who the influencers are in order to get the info. You type in the person’s handle, and get all sorts of data. I need to type in the brand/moment and find out who posted with the most engagement/users.

    Google analytics would be great if I were looking for information on a brand whose account I own, but that’s not the case.

    So, for example, I’m looking for Llama Grooming superfans/influencers who posted about the 2020 Llama Grooming documentary, either as paid promotion or just because they love some Llama.

    If it’s a paid service, I’d be willing to consider. I know this information is out there, but I’m really struggling on finding it.

    Thanks in advance for any info or advice!

    1. Colette*

      Note that I have absolutely no knowledge in this area, but can you try googling ”
      llama grooming” site:instagram.com
      and repeat for other sites (youtube, tiktok, etc.)?

      That might get you a list of potential people to check out.

    2. pancakes*

      I’d think you’d want to be looking at the brand tags on social media, in addition to the brands’ own accounts.

    3. Monday merps*

      You could use a social listening tool for this but all of the ones I’m familiar with are paid and somewhat costly (eg Sprout Social, Brandwatch. The listening topic would be the event/trend you want to investigate, and then you can look at the most influential people posting about it and drill down from there. Otherwise you could natively search for hashtags related to those events/trends, and usually on platforms like Instagram and Twitter they’re surfacing “most relevant” posts first—which would include some posts by high profile users.

  76. L in TX*

    I am retiring from the military after 20 years and will start job searching in areas not related to defense.

    When I interview I will be myself of course, but I am worried that new coworkers will interpret ex-military as code for inflexible, abrasive and/or close minded. I am especially cognizant of this if I am a manager.

    I’m thinking a breezy, Allison-like intro of “Don’t let the ex-Army fool you, I was only in the field for four years early in my career, but the majority of my experience is in policy and hospital administration”

    I am a Caucasian cis-gender female in my early 40s.

    Appreciate any suggestions or experiences that would help ease future coworkers concerns.

    1. Coenobita*

      I think this might be a know-your-audience situation. Are you job searching in a geographic area with a large military presence? Here in the DC area, I think a disclaimer like that would be overkill and a little awkward.

        1. Coenobita*

          Oh, you’ll be fine then! You definitely don’t need to say anything. The DC region is just so chock full of former military/military families/defense-adjacent people generally – your experience will probably be seen as a benefit, or perhaps just a point of commonality to make small talk about in interviews. I work in the environmental sector, about as far away from defense as you can get, and I’ve still had had multiple managers and coworkers who are retired military.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In previous jobs I worked with a lot of retired military. Most ex-service members adjust to civilian work norms pretty quickly, so you shouldn’t worry too much on that account.

      Two pieces of advice, both related to communication. You’ll probably need somebody outside the military (and that includes military families, too, so rule out spouse & kids for this) to do a mock interview and point out any issues.
      1) Make sure you aren’t overly-reliant on military slang, jargon, and acronyms. My CO => My boss, etc. This applies to how you write your resume, too.
      2) Make sure you aren’t answering questions with gruff, short answers.
      compare:
      “So it says on your resume you got your MPH from Rutgers.”
      “Yes.”
      (awkward silence)
      vs
      “So it says on your resume you got your MPH from Rutgers.”
      “Yes, I liked the program, and of course it was convenient to Fort Llamahead.”

    3. Observer*

      I’m thinking a breezy, Allison-like intro of “Don’t let the ex-Army fool you, I was only in the field for four years early in my career, but the majority of my experience is in policy and hospital administration”

      That’s going to be more of a red flag than not, in a lot of cases. Because it’s going to read that either you really are “inflexible, abrasive and/or close minded” and so you’re trying to push back on the perception instead of fixing the problem. or you have a lot of preconceived notions about non-military people.

      @Alton Brown’s Twin has some better suggestions – and the overall idea is very sound.

    4. Valancy Snaith*

      I wouldn’t say anything like that, it will come across as drawing more focus to it than you intend to. And even saying “in the field” is not going to be immediately obvious to nonmilitary people. Your best bet will be to show-don’t-tell, so if you are interviewing, just…try to behave as you normally would, but stay away from jargon or stiffness in speech and manner that would suggest inflexibility or abrasiveness. You could also lean on experiential questions and focus on the “I talked through this problem with a group” issues you solved rather than the “I produced and delivered a full set of orders weekly” side of things or whatever.

      Your future coworkers will likely react more to what you say and do and behave like in the workplace more so than anything else.

      2. Attractive Nuisance*

        I agree with this. As a non-military person, reading your comment I think “oh ok, she’s a hospital administrator who used to work for the Army” the same way I might think “oh ok, she’s a hospital administrator who used to work for Mount Sinai.” The differences in your old and new workplaces may feel very apparent to you, but they will probably not be apparent to your new coworkers, so you don’t need to proactively address them.

    5. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I don’t have advice, just reassurance. It’ll be fine. In my field, if anything, the exmilitary folks are just considered more organized. I have never been in the military, but, I’ve asked to have more ex military in the hiring pool. The ones I worked with were quicker to pick things up.

  77. TiredEmployee*

    I need a way to say “that’s not my job” when no one knows what my job is. The wider office think that because I’m in the same team as IT and generally knowledgable that that makes me IT Support.

    I’ve read past letters about pushing back, and the advice is what I do already – say that I’m busy (true!) and direct them to the correct person – but the problem has persisted for years. I can’t bluntly say “this isn’t my job” or “I can’t do this” because I do make changes to the system, have the same admin access that IT Support use, and when they don’t know how to solve the issue they escalate it to me (a whole other complaint), which means I occasionally send replies directly to the people asking for help. So then the next time they have a problem they skip the IT Support step and message me directly.

    I’ve brought this up with my boss a few times and he put out an announcement a while back asking everyone to send their issues to the IT Support inbox, but people still contact me directly and new starters are being told by others to ask me directly (and we’re recruiting a lot right now).

    This has been stressing me out a lot lately because I’ve got a load of stuff that is actually my job and support requests that are actually meant for me (from newer employees who have taken over tasks I used to do, or need training on things only I know). I wish I could just block all but the handful of people I need to work with from messaging me on Teams, at least emails I can forward to the support inbox.

    What do I do here?

    1. fueled by coffee*

      Instead of saying that you’re “busy” and directing them to the right person, why not be honest? “Actually, please send your questions about X to the IT support inbox first. They’ll escalate to me if needed. Thanks!” Or just forward their requests to the IT support inbox and cc the sender, with a note at the bottom like, “Fergus – In future, please send your help requests to the IT support inbox as a first point of contact. This keeps our workflow running smoothly.” Remind them to send things to IT support first, and don’t solve their ad-hoc requests for help until they learn to start sending things to the right place.

      It’s not about you being busy, it’s about this not being your job, and them deliberately circumventing the workflow.

      1. TiredEmployee*

        When I’m particularly humourless I’ll forward emails without even adding anything, but it really feels like this is what I’m doing already. On Teams I used to say “[Manager] has asked that we route everything through the IT support inbox so we have a better idea of how many and what issues there are, so can you send it over there in an email?” but that clearly hasn’t worked and lately I’ve been so overwhelmed that I’m just ignoring people until they prod me again, then apologise, tell them I’m juggling too much and to email IT support. I have severe social anxiety and autism, so this is absolutely not my strong suit.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Does it help to think about this as helping them learn where to send their questions?

          In your shoes, if I got this a lot, I might write up something that I could just copy-paste and reply to them with. Easier for you (I hope), and makes it less useful for them to e-mail you when they should be doing something else.

    2. PX*

      Just because you have access to things and can certain IT stuff doesnt make it your job. I feel like you’re being too kind/helpful to other people, if its not your job to do the particular thing they are asking, say that! And keep redirecting them (although I appreciate its annoying to have to do).

      I’d also go back to your manager and flag this again as something they need to address. In particular people skipping the process/system to come straight to you is a big no-no, as is training newbies to come directly to you.

      Teams is not my favourite messaging system, but I’ve seen people essentially set up an auto-reply on it that says “dont message me unless X,Y,Z” – could you try that? Or I think you can also set up trusted contacts (or something like that) and then put yourself on do-not-disturb which only allows the people on the trusted list to message you – so you could actually do what you’re proposing.

      1. TiredEmployee*

        I’m not sure how that would fly at this company, the culture at least as far as support stuff is concerned is if you approach someone who can help, they will pause what they’re doing and help. Not that people are demanding or unpleasant about it, everyone is lovely, and I get the same treatment when I ask for IT help that I can’t do myself despite prefacing it with “this is not remotely urgent”. Based on that you’re right that I am probably being too kind and/or helpful, but it feels like I can’t not. Mentioning my mental stuff has sent another reply to moderation, so suffice to say navigating social situations is not my strong suit!

        I will bring it up with my boss again – he’s very hands-off with me generally because of all the fires he has to put out while I just truck on, so it feels like something has to be Important to bring up. I know that’s another “me issue” and that dealing with this kind of thing is part of his job, it’s just very hard to internalise! Yes I am in therapy…

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      “Let’s make sure you get the support you need. I’ve created an IT Support ticket for you here, and they can help you out. In the future, you can create your own ticket here [insert link].”

      1. TiredEmployee*

        That would be great if we had a ticketing system! IT Support is one person backed up by her boss, so this is basically what I’m doing when I forward people’s emails to the support inbox, or ask them to do that when it’s a Teams message.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          That can work, too. “IT Support is whom you want to reach out to for this. I’ve forwarded your request along to her.”

    4. Secret Squirrel*

      Saying you’re busy or it’s not your job doesn’t feel like the right message. I’d focus on the process. There’s a system, requests need to go through it properly, and that’s a neutral redirect. “Sorry, this has to go through official channels. Please submit a ticket and we’ll get on it.” If needed, ask your boss if you can borrow their authority — “We’ve done it a little differently in the past, but Boss says requests have to go through this step first. It’s important we follow this so we can track requests and get them to the right person.” Every time. Don’t let it stress you out, just redirect them.

    5. Choggy*

      I always redirect users and add the comment “So your ticket can be logged in our system.” I have been in IT support for many years, and we have the same process, but people will always try to go around. They will email, chat, or call me directly, and my answer is always the same. It’s human nature to use the path of (what they think of as) least resistance, but I’ve trained most to do what they should. If they don’t, their emails and chats get “lost”, and I don’t pick up my phone (if they get to vm, I have a message that also directs them to call/email the Helpdesk).

    6. Colette*

      I suggest two things: when you get a request for help, don’t answer it immediately. Let it sit for an hour or a day or whatever is appropriate in your environment. Then, after you’ve waiting, reply and say “I’m forwarding this to our IT support team; they’ll be able to help you with it.” or “I’m sending it to IT support as they are often able to handle these issues faster than I can”.

      But it’s a common problem; the key is to make it unrewarding to circumvent the process.

    7. Mockingjay*

      I get similar asks. I redirect to the ticket system EVERY SINGLE TIME.

      “Hey, you need to put in a ticket with IT Help Desk for that. The ticket system ensures each issue is tracked and addressed quickly. They’re a great team; far more knowledgeable than I!” Or, “…They can fix things I can’t; I have very limited admin functions in the system.” And so on.

      It used to annoy me too. These requests were from coworkers who wanted an intermediary so they didn’t have to do “the small stuff.” After repeating my new mantra for six months, most of them got it. (The ones who didn’t – my email is on repeat.)

    8. no sleep for the wicked*

      My worplace uses a ticketing system already, so I was able to request my own queue for my 1-person unit (I was supposed to have help. Ha!) and it’s so nice to redirect line-jumpers there with ‘once you submit your request we can get the ball rolling/tag in the right staff etc.
      It also gives me the buffer I need in dealing with demanding people during busy times when every interruption can cause very public delays and mistakes.
      Maybe you can get a non-personalized email address like job.request@job.com and direct people there as if it were a ticketing queue.

  78. PX*

    I’m trying to think of a good way to phrase a question to a potential manager in an interview which is basically: “how do you support your minority employees in this predominantly white, male, tech space?”. Essentially I want to get at things like, if my opinion isnt being listened to or I’m being dismissed/ignored in meetings – will you actually understand that its a problem and do something about it.

    I’ve got some wording floating around in my brain, but would love to get input from y’all. If it helps, I’m generally a fairly blunt, outspoken person and have other options I’m exploring, so not too fussed about offending anyone with this question (also not in the US so people are more open to being asked tough questions from candidates during the process).

    1. irene adler*

      This might be too subtle for your taste, but what about bringing up diversity during the interview, get their take, and then “How does management support the minority employees?”
      I’m finding that most interviewers are keen to talk about what the company is doing to create/support diversity. So you’ll get the company line for sure. IN fact, they bring up the topic most times. Then, ask the probing questions (“how does management support the minority employees”, “can you give me examples?” “would you consider this example to be a success in the eyes of those minority employees?”) .

    2. rocklobsterbot*

      it sounds like you can use the exact same wording as one of those “how would you handle/how did you handle…” questions you often get as a job seeker.

    3. Emma2*

      Could you ask something along the lines of “Could you tell me about some of the challenges that minority employees have faced in this company/sector and what steps you have taken to support them?”
      I have not dealt with this myself but I feel like if you ask a general about positive actions question you will get some platitudes about whatever corporate plans are in place, which may or may not have any value. I wonder if asking them to try to talk about challenges and not just solutions might be more revealing as it might give you a better sense as to how aware they really are.

  79. I can’t think of a clever name*

    I am trying to get pregnant-fingers crossed. I work for a small company with less than the 50 employees required for FMLA protections. There is no maternity leave policy, and no one has been pregnant while working here. I love my job and my boss is amazing, but the lack of protections/maternity leave policies make me very nervous. Do you think I should stay? Does anyone have advice for how to have conversations about leave when there isn’t any precedent at our company and no policy in place? Obviously this isn’t an issue at this exact moment, but hopefully it’s a bridge I’ll have to cross fairly soon.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Yikes. There’s no parental leave policy at all? I would find that very, very concerning.

      At my last job, also at an org too small to be covered by FMLA, the parental leave policy was bad (6 weeks unpaid) but at least it was there. I was trying to get pregnant (but unsuccessful) and I judged the situation by how other non-parental leave requests were handled. I noticed that my boss was very generous is handling leave requests for other reasons and would often grant more than minimum he had to according to HR policies. YMMV. It was still an uncomfortable situation.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      My last job was like this – too small for FMLA, no actual policy about it at all. Boss/owner intentionally omitted it from the handbook because he thought it was best to remain flexible, though I told them a couple times (had two kids while I was there) that it makes it look like he doesn’t think he would hire a woman who would have children. To his credit, he was flexible though – we once had someone on bedrest for a significant portion of her pregnancy and she was allowed to WFH in pre-covid times when that typically wasn’t allowed, and still took time off after, and I never had a problem taking time off either. This could really go either way in small organizations. If your boss is truly amazing, I doubt it will be an issue to take 12 weeks off.

      Not having any pay for 12 weeks can be problematic though, depending on your finances and what their other accrued leave was like. I did end up leaving that job for a lot of reasons, but one frustration was that the PTO was paltry and I had to pay for my own short term disability to even get that. If you’re otherwise paid well, happy, and have decent benefits, I don’t think it’s necessarily a dealbreaker but if you do want to look for somewhere with paid leave, you’d need to get started right away since most places will require you’ve been there 1 year prior to delivery to use it.

    3. Carlottasouffle*

      I had a similar situation (first one pregnant in office, no known maternity leave policy), but I’m in California where there are some state protections in place even for 5+ employers. I think this is really situational. I knew going into the conversation with my supervisors that they’re supportive (in talk and reality), so when I talked to them about my pregnancy and leave, I was prepared to ask for what I wanted, which was four months off (and also the legally protected amount of time in CA). They were willing to give me whatever amount of time off I asked for, which was a relief to hear (even if it were unpaid, it was nice to know they wanted me to come back). I took four months & received a few weeks paid by the company and some money from the state since there are Paid Family Leave and Short-Term Disability leave programs here. I would recommend doing some research to familiarize yourself with your state’s regulations (maybe even city or county) on family leave, so you can go informed into a meeting with your boss about what you want to ask for to start the negotiation, and also, of course, think about your budget beforehand and what you could afford to take off unpaid. Also think about if you have any unused PTO, and saving it up until you deliver/leave, so you can find out if they would pay that to you while you’re out. Obviously, you know your manager/office best, but I would recommend aiming high on asking what you want and seeing where they go from there. And think about what your minimum asks are, needs, wants (12 weeks vs. 16 weeks for xample, paid, partially paid, not paid). I was anxious and worried about having the conversation even knowing I’m at a good company, but it was ultimately nice to be able to come up with leave that I wanted and then negotiate for it. My priority was time off vs compensation since we could handle that dip in income, so I was hard set on a minimum of four months but okay with not being paid during the whole time. It’s good to go into that meeting knowing what you can and can’t afford, so you can make a decision based on what they end up agreeing to with you. Congratulations and best wishes for a healthy pregnancy!

  80. Mystic*

    I wanted to say thank you to everyone here. Thanks to Alison, this website, and all you lovely people, I had the confidence to apply for a promotion. I made it to the second round interviews! And now I’m waiting for an answer on whether I move to third round, but without y’all, I never would’ve had the courage.

  81. Job Hopping Millennial*

    I worked for 2 years and 10 months at my first job. I was at Job #2 for almost 2 years, but then got laid off. Job #3, I got laid off after 9 months due to COVID. During COVID, I picked up a temporary position that lasted about 6 months (Job #4).

    Now I’m in Job #5 for about 9 months, and I don’t like it. I’m in the final stages of interviewing somewhere else, but I feel really guilty about potentially leaving because I feel like I’m living into the stereotype of millennial job hopper, even though 3 out of my previous 4 jobs I left involuntarily. Should I just stick it out at job #5 for the sake of stability, even if I’m not happy here?

    1. Bluebelle*

      No, don’t worry about it. “job hopping” isn’t really frowned on as much as it used to be. Also, you didn’t job hop. 9 months is plenty of time and the rest weren’t anything to do with you. You can explain the first 3 easily, this current role you can honestly state “It isn’t a good fit for XYZ”
      Good luck!

      1. Job Hopping Millennial*

        Thanks for the response! I realized that actually I was at job #2 for 2 years and 3 months, so Jobs #1 & Jobs #2 were both over 2 years, but still not super long. I appreciate your feedback. I really wanted to be happy and content at Job #5 so I’m disappointed that it’s not working out how I expected. :(

    2. Spearmint*

      Maybe on your resume you could note why the stay was short for jobs 2, 3 and 4, to show you’re not flaky. For instance:

      Job 2, date – date (laid off in restructuring)

      Job 3, date – date (laid off due to covid budget cuts)

      Job 4, date – date (temporary)

  82. ADHD and Copy Editing*

    How does one become good at copy editing their own work while having ADHD?

    This is kind of a high stakes question because me making copy editing mistakes has officially been flagged as a performance issue, where if I don’t resolve it my employment could be at stake. It didn’t come up in last years performance review (my first) but it did in the most recent one. I have received praises on other aspects of my work performance, like being a strong writer, but copy editing has always been my weakness. It was a problem in my last job too. The problem is though, I’m not sure if there really is a solution to this? Of course I always read over my work, but a characteristic of having ADHD unfortunately means my scatter brain will make unplanned mistakes and I don’t know which one will eventually cost me my job.

    So far, the only solutions I have are printing out copies of my work before editing (something I do sometimes but will do more consistently) and talking to my psychiatrist about changing or upping my medication dosage. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Some options:
      1. Read out loud, preferably tracking the words with a pointer of some sort.
      2. Read from the bottom up.
      3. Change the font and/or before proofreading so that you’ll have a different view. Or swap to white on black.
      4. Turn on all of the spelling and grammar checkers (and if they bug you while you write, then just run them when you are in proofing mode).

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is this copy-editing for grammar, punctuation, spelling, and formatting, or copy-editing for clarity, flow, and organization?

      If it’s the former, don’t do the work front-to-back. Chop it up, even randomly, on a page-by-page or paragraph-by-paragraph basis. That forces you out of the narrative flow and into looking at each sentence and phrase individually.

      1. ADHD and Copy Editing*

        It’s mostly typos and formatting errors, but with significant implications. I create graphs for PPT presentations and once miswrote “billion” instead of “trillion” and another time forgot a 0. Grammar not as much because I have good grasp on that. It’s mostly absentminded errors.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Ugh solidarity – I find that these are the worst type of errors to catch (I’m a writer) because no service is going to flag “billion” when you meant “trillion.” I have to approach each slide with a critical attitude – I *know* there’s an error here, and I just have to find it – not just scanning to look for obvious typos or whatever.

    3. Bluebelle*

      Check out the add on Grammarly it catches a lot and gives feedback to help you improve your writing skills.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t have ADHD, but I do have dyslexia. Here’s the things that I do which help me and maybe some of them will help you. One thing you’ll notice is all of these tricks are really meant to force your brain to “see” the actual text, not the text you think is there.

      1. Try to schedule in a “rest” between when you finish the piece and when you edit it. I try to give myself 24 hours, but like 72 is even better if you can swing it. Finish Friday, proof Monday is my favorite pattern.
      2. Work from double spaced hard copy. Also, I put a piece of paper over the text, so I can only see the line I am currently reading.
      3. As Aspiring Chicken Lady suggested, work backwards- so you read the last paragraph first and then work up the document.
      4. Try online tools. I love a tool called, Hemingway Editor, because I have issues with using passive voice too much and this helps me. I’m sure there are others.
      5. Can you find a proofing buddy? I am super good at proofing other people’s work and super bad at my own. So, when I am on a tight timeline, I have a colleague and we sort of double check each others work. I’m happy to work on hers and she is happy to work on mine.
      6. I’ve also done what Alton Brown’s Evil Twin Suggests and literally printed a document, cut up each paragraph, shuffled them into a random order and then worked through the slips of paper. Sure, people looked at me like I was a little weird, but it works!

      Lastly, I got through most of high school without needing to really learn to deal with my dyslexia issues and it wasn’t until college and then grad school that I had to learn to work around some of it. The classic “solutions” people suggested- like using a different font- never helped, but the one thing that did was working in hard copy and learning tricks to force my brain to “slow down” and really see the page. The hardest thing for me has always been that all these tricks take time. And I tend to not want to take the time, but taking the time is worth it and I know that, so I have to force myself to schedule my projects with a built in- proofing- period. I hope some of these tricks might help you.

      1. Poppin' in for This*

        AnotherLibrarian, these are great tips and ones that professional copywriters/print editors use.

    5. Soup of the Day*

      Solidarity. Writing and editing are so often lumped together into one job, when really they’re different skills! I’m a very talented and experienced writer, but I have no attention to detail at all and often make these kinds of mistakes. At some organizations I have had an editor and it was great, but I currently have to do it all myself and I look really silly when I have a basic error in something I’m working on. I use Grammarly and it helps catch a lot of things, but not everything. I also second the recommendation to read the final piece out loud, and slowly. Taking a break and coming back for a final read-through also helps. I honestly just become blind to my own writing when I’ve been staring at it for too long.

    6. Just a different redhead*

      In addition to others’ suggestions (particularly reading aloud, though I could even suggest doing so in a assumed voice or accent to take your mind to a different perspective on it/ give it fresh ears), you could potentially take each sentence or caption and temporarily place it in high-contrast supersize font by itself on a powerpoint slide or similar, and read it through as though each sentence or caption was a super impressive statement. Then just paste the next one in.
      Or just do that to the whole font in the document in the first place, make it an unusual color scheme and giant, or highlight one sentence/caption at a time…
      Something like this might make it easier to see if there’s any pattern whatsoever to the shape or placement of something that makes you more prone to gloss by it.

    7. Delighting in Daffodils*

      Checklists!

      I CE as part of my day job, and checklists keep me on track. Instead of trying to find everything wrong on a single pass through a document (and inevitably getting distracted by other errors), I break it down into as tiny chunks as possible.

      Here are the passes I do:
      -reading for logic/flow
      -reading for grammar
      -looking for any facts that can be checked
      -looking for any proper names that need to be checked
      -looking for misspelled words
      -looking for formatting inconsistencies

      Hope this helps!

    8. RagingADHD*

      In addition to the ideas mentioned here, you could try keeping a list of the most common or highest-stakes errors, and run a “find” for each of them to make sure you are double-checking all the instances.

      For example, if you need to verify all your millions, billions, and trillions are correct, you could run a find for “illion”. If you need to verify that you have enough zeros, run a find for “0” and double-check them.

      Making a personal error-control checklist that you perform the same way on each document will help with consistency and streamline your process so you don’t have to try to remember what to check for each time, and you don’t have to try to remember which checks you already ran or not.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Several people have already given my go-to tips – read it out loud, let it sit overnight, and read it backwards. I go one further on read it backwards: I go word by word so I am not seeing context. Helps me catch the kind of typos/errors you are talking about.

      So instead of reading “cost in billions of dollars” you read “dollars. billions. cost.” That’s how I notice I typed billions instead of trillions. I also tend to make the same typo over and over – my fingers just automatically hit the keys in the wrong order e.g., Untied States instead of United States. So I know to carefully look at that every time it appears.

      Having a colleague review is also a good idea – I don’t always catch my own mistakes – I see what I expect to be there, rather than what is. Definitely talk to your doctor, but this might not be a need for upping your meds, as I am not ADHD and I do this stuff all the time!

    10. ADHD and Copy Editing*

      I just want to thank each and every one of you who replied. These responses are both very supportive and helpful. I’m screenshot-ing all of them to be able easily access later. I’m still a little bit shaken from my meeting earlier this morning because it’s the first time a performance issue has been flagged while on this job (but not the first time in this career), so I appreciate the empathetic responses. I’m currently feeling disappointed and ashamed in myself but I think these suggestions could truly help.

      I will also continue checking this thread until tomorrow at least, so feel free to continue popping off suggestions on here though I know we’ve reached the end of the week.

      1. Kate in Scotland*

        Hi, coming in late to say that by far the most effective editing tool for me is using text-to-speech to read the text back to me. Even if I zone out a bit while it’s reading to me, my brain will ‘bump’ on mistakes and I can then go find them in the text.
        The checklist idea upthread sounds great though, so I’ll add that to the mix. I already use checklists for some exacting and tedious tasks that were tripping me up every time, but I haven’t used them so much for writing. Thanks for starting this topic, some great ideas here.

        1. anonyadd*

          Seconding text to speech, and sending solidarity. I’m also reeling from my first performance issue I was called out on due to ADD. Mine is different but I also have the copyediting issue and worried that it might be more noticeable now that other aspects of my work are being watched more closely.
          I’m assuming you have not disclosed? I don’t want to but it sucks not being able to hide it as well as I used to. For me I think some of it is the additional pandemic challenges and some of it is my
          meds are lower quality generic now and I can’t get the good generic anymore bc insurance says it’s too fancy. I’ve started taking a supplemental extra low dose pill that is not time release I can use for a boost. It helps but now I can’t get as many refills and am being treated like a drug seeker, arg.

          Hang in there you are not alone.

          1. ADHD and Copy Editing*

            Hi anonyadd – I’m am currently considering on whether or not to disclose but am leaning towards no. Basically I might disclose if I can get some sort of tangible accommodation for it but idk what that would be. I already asked my supervisor during our meeting whether there was a way I could get peer review built into my project schedules so that I had someone guaranteed to review my work before it went to print. However she denied it.

            1. anonyadd*

              Yeah, it’s hard. The biggest challenge for me is that you can’t un-disclose once you’ve disclosed.
              I thought about disclosing at school as a sort of practice to see what it would feel like. I’m taking some night classes. The downside there is they are a public university, so if I disclose it’s technically a public record. The chances of someone pulling a FOIA request on me specifically is extremely low, but we have some local rabble rousers who pull requests anytime they have a beef with local elected officials. I’m concerned mine might come up in a wider search.

    11. Fikly*

      You’ve gotten lots of great tips, so I’m not going to add ones, other than practice, practice, pratice, but I wanted to add that I had ADHD and have been copy editing on various levels for over two decades and am quite skilled at it, so it is not an impossible task because of how your brain is wired. This is a skill you can learn.

      It’s not one that is commonly taught, so it can seem very mysterious if it’s not something that comes naturally to you, but it’s totally something you can learn. I don’t know if you’ve read Harry Potter, but I think of this kind of thing as like when Snape would be yelling at Harry to clear his mind, and Harry would be all, but how? If no one has ever taught you the steps to do something, just demands the overall task over and over, of course you get frustrated and it feels impossible.

  83. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    If Job #6 is happy to hire you, then let them hire you. You don’t like #5 so it won’t do you any particular good in and of itself.

    Worry about the Job #7 when you get to it. Who knows how long you’ll be at #6 anyway! Just handwave the middle bit away while muttering “pandemic”.

  84. Golden French Fry*

    “Gifts” flowing up question here. One of the VPs in my company (I am entry level staff) has really taken me under their wing when it comes to mentorship and has taken every opportunity to point out to others that I’m doing a good job. We are on the same team, but they lead a different department that works closely with mine.

    I mentioned that my spouse is interested in transitioning to the VP’s field, and VP has kindly offered to chat with him and keep an eye out for opportunities.

    What’s a good way to thank this person, especially if they’re successful in helping my spouse transition fields? Heartfelt note in a thank you card? I know gifts should flow down, not up (and I can’t think of much that isn’t clutter). There is an internal award system we can use to nominate coworkers, but I think the VP level and above isn’t eligible.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      The nicest thing I have ever gotten from folks I have given some time to is a hand-written thank you card. I know it might seem old fashioned, but there is something genuinely lovely about getting a handwritten note. I treasure the ones I have gotten and I think it s the best way to thank someone.

      1. Golden French Fry*

        Perfect, thank you so much! Growing up, my mom always instilled the power of a good handwritten thank you note and it hasn’t failed me yet. That’s what I’ll do.

  85. Kesnit*

    I know this is foolish and I just need someone to tell me such…

    My wife and I live with her parents. The week between Christmas and New Years, we all came down with COVID. Per agency policy, I took leave the first week of January and returned to the office Friday, January 7.

    At lunch that day, my wife texted me that her father (who was admitted to the hospital on Wednesday due to COVID-related health issues) was not expected to make it. After telling my co-workers, I ran out the door. He passed that night and I took family leave for the next week. (I did go to work on Tuesday, just because there were things I needed to get done and we were at a point where there was nothing I could do at home.)

    I’ve been back for two weeks now and feel so guilty about being out for so long. I feel horrible that my coworkers had to cover for me in court, even though it was just continuing my cases and handling a guilty plea.

    Again, I know this is foolish. It’s not like I just disappeared for two weeks. But this is how I feel.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m sorry about your dad.

      What if you took Covid out of the question? If you were out for a week because you broke your foot, and then you took family leave the next week, would that feel any different?

    2. Decidedly Me*

      You have nothing to feel guilty about. I’ve had some of my reports out for longer periods recently due to a series of things (COVID, other illnesses, deaths in the family, etc) and my first concern is whether they are ok and how I can best support them.

      Their team members that reach out to me ask me if they’re ok – not to say anything about workload.

    3. Colette*

      How would you feel if this happened to one of your coworkers? You wouldn’t resent them for being out, I assume, you’d understand that it was important for them to take time off to recover from a contagious illness and to be with your wife as she dealt with the loss of her father. And they probably feel the same way.

    4. Observer*

      Oof. That’s a though couple of weeks you had there. I’m sorry to hear about your FIL.

      What are you feeling guilty about? If this is really about something else (eg you are concerned that you “shouldn’t” be living with your wife’s parents*), then deal with that. If it really is feeling guilty because you had a bad few weeks there then just firmly remind yourself “I’m not g-d and I don’t get to schedule this stuff” than move on to something else.

      It’s not often realistic to prevent a thought like this from entering your mind, but it generally IS in your control if you ruminate over it or dismiss it. Keep dismissing it.

      *To be clear, I absolutely do NOT think that this is an issue. I’m just using this an example of the kind of thing that people sometimes worry about without acknowledging even to themselves that they are concerned about it for some reason or other.

      1. Kesnit*

        That isn’t the issue. We were living with them in order to save money to build our own house. As it turned out, my student loans were too high for me to qualify for a construction loan last fall. So it worked out in the end, because now my wife and I are in a position to help my mother-in-law keep the house.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Your wife is grieving, so you are grieving and supporting her. Grief is weird.

      Often, you get all these feelings (anger, guilt, sadness, etc) and your brain tells you they are about something else, when they are really about the loss (or about caring for a loved one who is dealing with loss). To put it another way: you react more intensely or less rationally to other events and situations in your life because you have all these grief-feelings bubbling up.

      You are having perfectly normal, understandable feelings under the circumstances. They don’t make sense, because feelings don’t make sense. That’s just how feelings are. Hang in there. It will get better.

      Take care and best wishes.

  86. Divorce' To Be*

    I’m looking for advice on how to handle conversations with prospective employers about my family life when I’m in the midst of a divorce. I have a 3rd-round “on campus” interview for an academic-adjacent job. It’s two full days (including one evening) of various meetings, meals, and tours of campus and the town. Based on past experience, as we’re sussing each other out for a good fit, the conversations often veer into the more personal with questions about your life. (I know they’re not technically supposed to ask if you’re married, have kids, etc., but these kinds of questions often come up indirectly or informally.) I’m at the beginning stages of a divorce that will likely take about 9-12 months to finalize. I don’t want to create any awkwardness or concern about potential personal drama … but I also don’t want to pretend that my spouse doesn’t exist (long-term marriage) or that we’re already divorced. Has anyone had to navigate these kinds of conversations during the interview process? Thanks!

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, I would go with this. Having done many of those interviews (on both sides), I think as long as you are “breezy” about it, as Alison often says, people will take the cue and likely won’t pry.

    2. I-Away 8*

      In casual conversation I started referring to myself as “divorced” or “single” long before my divorce became finalized.

    3. Distractinator*

      You can also talk about your home life with general words like “we” and “family” and skim over specifying “husband” or “ex-husband”, opt out of specific questions. “We live in (neighborhood) because my kids love the schools”, “oh yes I’ve been there we did a family vacation a few years back”. But you don’t have to hide it either, just go with the moment of the conversation. To some extent if you don’t bring any awkwardness, mentioning a divorce won’t be awkward/drama it’s just a fact.

  87. Alldogsarepuppies*

    Does anyone have a good aptitude test they think is good? Preferable if its not “the test is free but the answers cost money”

  88. Spearmint*

    I’d like to hear from people who’ve successfully transitioned from a generalist, “wears many hats” type role to something more specialized.

    I’m currently in a jack of all trades role in a small government office, which is my first permanent position after college. I do everything form project coordination, data analysis, data collection, writing and editing, various IT tasks, and even some project management. I’ve never had the chance to truly hone skills in one area, and I have to spend a lot of time on duties thst don’t come naturally to me.

    I started looking for specialized jobs in data analysis and/or writing a few weeks ago, but the problem I’m finding so far is that everyone wants specialized experience, even for entry level roles. When typing out my resume, I simply don’t have enough experience to fill it out with accomplishments and skills in one or two areas alone. I’m not sure how to pitch myself in my resume and cover letter.

    (I’ve posted this some months but it was late in the day and didn’t get a ton of responses)

    1. SmoothViolet*

      I did a good cover letter along these lines. I pulled out the main theme ‘attention to detail’ and backed it up by showing all the areas in which I had demonstrated this, e.g. reconciling accounts to the last cent, error-checking customer databases, creating detailed procedures for complex workflows, etc.

      Then perhaps an additional theme of being comfortable with a wide variety of document types – have you been involved in writing letters, procedures, databases, articles, emails, internal communications, external communications. Lay it all out there. Your value is your broad range of experience and your knowledge of various communication types.

      Also you’d have skills in managing competing priorities.

      And then apply for positions where you can say ‘I’ve had some experience in X area, I enjoyed this specific part when I tried that work, and I’d love to hone my skills by focusing more in this way.’

  89. ahhh*

    I feel silly even asking this and yes I’m being too sensitive in a good way. I work with a group of 5 people. We’re all in our 40s and 50s. We started out in a pre-covid project and worked very well together. To make things more manageable during the covid lockdown we were put into teams. Since management was impressed with the 6 of us we became a team. As things started opening up we hung out with each other (and other officemates) outside of the office.

    To say the 6 of us have very different personalities and lifestyles is an understatement. Maybe that’s what makes us get along! I’ve always joked that I’m the bookworm of the group. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy happy hour and occassionally dancing the night away, but love a cozy night in with hot cocoa and a book.

    Our company requires us to work x hours a year on a volunteer project. We came up with a great idea and a local non profit organization is so excited to work with us. I made a comment to someone on my team that while this year is chaotic I’m excited when we do it next year as we set things up ready to go this year. They replied with love and respect you are our “nerdy bookworm” and we adore you for this.

    Now I know this was meant as a term of affection and I’m not offended by the term nerdy bookworm, but it got me thinking that this might be how I am viewed in the professional world. I guess what I’m asking is how do you “change” your image. I mean I fashion wise I am more in a classic style but nothing that seems nerdy by stereotypical standards. I’m more on the quiet side but have had officemates tell me that I am one they can confide in and I am fun to hang out with. I’m a mom, married, close to my family, have hobbies, participate in sports teams. I also don’t want to have to change to be something I’m not.

    Is this a bad thing to be known as the “nerdy bookworm”? How do you change your professional image?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In case you hadn’t noticed, nerds run the world now ;-)

      Seriously though, just because this group of 6 people that you work with intently have come up with a pithy catchphrase or personality pigeonhole for you, does not mean that it’s now the sum total of your professional reputation or image.

      Image should be about what you get done more than any stereotypical personal traits.

    2. Pascall*

      It’s totally not a bad thing! “Nerdy” is definitely more of an affectionate term than it used to be. It really just comes down to them knowing that you love books and reading and there’s nothing bad about that. I don’t think it’s something you need to change unless you’re no longer interested in sharing your interest in books- in which case, you’d just want to bring another interest of yours to the forefront, whether it be movies or music or LEGO master building or baking peanut butter cookies. Doesn’t really matter what. People usually associate you with whatever you talk about most often.

    3. River Otter*

      If you really do not want to be known as the bookworm, stop referring to yourself as the bookworm. That’s the first step.

      What would you like to be known as instead? Start talking up that aspect of yourself.

      Think about your audience, as well. Who do you want to change your image in front of? Are you trying to get your coworkers to stop thinking of you as the nerdy bookworm (if so, why?)? Are you concerned about your image in the larger professional world? Think about how you interact with that audience, And make sure that your interactions are highlighting the things you want to be known for.

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      I will share with you the wisdom of Wil Wheaton: “Nerd” doesn’t describe what you enjoy, it describes how you enjoy it, and that is enthusiastically. Speaking for myself, I embrace that I enthusiastically enjoy supporting volunteer projects and I would encourage you to run with it rather than run from it.

      Because, as ABET mentioned: nerds run the world. :-)

    5. RagingADHD*

      People will always perceive you in some way. They are going to refer to those perceptions in shorthand in casual settings. If it’s a shallow and false perception based on temporary or superficial things, it’s easy to correct by being yourself over time. If it’s an accurate perception by people who know you pretty well, then it’s based on the things you say and how you act over time.

      In order to change that perception, you need to change how you act. In what way, exactly, do you want to be perceived?

      If you want to be thought of as a go-getter, kicking down doors and taking names, then be more vocal and assertive. Take bold stances and advocate for them vigorously, undeterred by dissent. Seek out leadership roles and eagerly volunteer for them at every opportunity. If none exist, create some.

      If you want to be thought of as a highly social master connector, then go out of your way to seek new connections. Keep mental (or actual) notes about the skills, interests, and business needs of everyone in your network and take every opportunity to introduce people to each other in mutually beneficial matchups.

      Whatever you want to be known for, you have to do the thing. If you do it long enough and noticeably enough, then that will be how people think of you.

      It sounds like your team has a very positive and accurate impression of you, for things that you like and appreciate about yourself. It also sounds like this perception has not in any way had a negative impact on your work or held you back from projects you want to do.

      Is there some part of your personality that you feel you are stifling at work, or some role you aspire to that you don’t think your team would support you in? What aspect of yourself do you want them to see that they aren’t seeing?

  90. Pascall*

    Any other HR professionals know where to get some sneaky training on Workday when you don’t actually work for a company that uses Workday? I want to be able to add it to my resume to say that I have a basic understanding of it – most huge companies will want experience in it, since it’s the staple HRIS for larger companies, and yet Workday doesn’t want you learning it until you’re actually working for one of their clients.

    I’m wondering if there are resources out there that get around this? Or even just some documentation or videos that someone made at some point that goes over the basics of the system. I don’t need in-depth knowledge at this point, I just want to get a handle on its core functionality and features.

    Any suggestions are welcome!

    4. HRIS*

      You might be able to find manuals/guides that companies/orgs using it have put out for their own users. But this will mostly be very basic things for end users, like how to change your password, search, set goals, things like that. There is also a reddit that gets questions like this a lot. But it would be very difficult to find anything for administrators online outside of Workday’s resources.

      Ultimately Workday is a closed system and they make their money by having companies pay for their workers to receive training. So it’s not in their interest to make anything public. Nowadays manuals have your email watermarked on it so it’d be easy to track down where a shared manual came from. I think it is incredibly difficult to get trained in Workday without being in a company that uses it.

  91. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

    Temporary contractor/COVID response blues.

    I’ve worked for a state government covid response unit since June 2020. I lead a small but vital team and am well regarded in the unit. People from all over the unit come to me with questions about anything and everything because I have a (deserved) reputation for having a wealth of knowledge about the ins and outs of the response as well as often being able to troubleshoot and solve problems. The unit is honestly pretty amazing, tons of talent, incredibly hard working, and we’ve obviously been through the wringer. We’re also 95% temporary contractors with no benefits. I have raised the issue of how harmful and demoralizing it is that we have no pensions, no good insurance, no PTO, but it all seems to be above everyone’s head – it’s a state-level funding issue, nothing my bosses control.

    The kicker is the advice I’m currently getting from most well-meaning state-level employees is “apply for a state position, any state position, because sometimes you need to settle for something you don’t really want to get those FTE benefits, and then once you’re in people move around.” I like and excel in THIS position, and there’s no reason for my position to become obsolete anytime soon. So I need to figure out what I need to do to convince the Powers That Be that my current position needs to become a permanent FTE state position with benefits.

    I’m just exhausted and have no energy to work on improving this situation rn. Commiseration or advice welcome.

    1. Colette*

      When I see “government”, I assume there are going to be rules that govern things that wouldn’t be an issue in a private company. Can you talk to your current manager and ask whether creating it as a permanent FTE position is a possibility? It’s possible that that’s not an option she has, and the advice you’re getting is the way to go. It may come down to taking a less amazing position or going without benefits.

      1. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

        My current manager is also a contractor. The second in command for our 300-person unit says “I would give all of you permanent positions if I could!” Funding decisions are made far above us. I might try my grand boss though (who is just under the second in command who said “if I could I would”) to see if she knows who I even need to advocate to.

      2. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

        I know it MAY come down to taking another position, but I’m not quite done fighting for this one. Our state prides itself on our covid response and we have a lot more funding for it than many states. The way we’re treated doesn’t reflect how important we allegedly are, and I’m not ready to stop making a stink about that. (I am also updating my resume.)

    2. Barbara Moore-Lewis*

      Retired state employee…I’d listen to the advice. I started as a temporary (turning down a permanent job with another agency). I was told that’s the way the system worked. Retired many years later from the place I’d started as a temporary (9 mo). You need to figure out who would have to do what exactly for you to get what you want and then to understand the fiscal/political pressures on them. Otherwise it’s like a list for Santa.

  92. Environmental Compliance*

    Does anyone have any experience with service dogs & an industrial facility?

    We are heavy manufacturing (noise, chemical exposure, large dangerous pieces of equipment, etc.). Our initial thought is that there is no way to keep an animal + employee safe out on the floor. The employee’s position is such that they will need to be on the floor on a regular basis on short notice and there is no way to get around that. To keep details short – they are part of our emergency response team.

    Just looking if anyone has also had this situation and what they did, as I’m not sure if we’re missing something that we can be doing.

    1. Pascall*

      According to the ADA, it does not overrule legitimate safety requirements in the workplace. I think it would depend on how long the employee would need to be out on the floor. If they can be out on the floor without the animal for however long while the animal remains safely kept elsewhere in the building and away from the machinery/chemicals, then it may be worth accommodating that. But if they would need the animal throughout the entirety of their time on the floor, I’m not sure if that would make sense to accommodate, from a safety standpoint. Depending on the safety requirements of the employees, you probably want to consult an actual lawyer before making a ruling on this. It may be super specific to your environment as to whether or not an accommodation makes sense or would cause undue hardship.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        It depends – it’s all emergency response, so it may be 5 minutes or it may be 3 hours. We might be able to put the animal in an empty office if they need to/are able to go without? It can’t stay in the employee’s area unattended, as it’s a relatively trafficked area with no one else attending.

        I really want this to work for them and I don’t want it to end up being “well, you can’t do your job with a service animal”, but I’m not necessarily seeing a good way to support. This employee has had so much incredible bad luck. We’re trying to do some legwork beforehand to make something work to keep them around & working – they came to us recently with a “hey this likely will happen in a few months”.

        My thought is to create an admin role within the same department and shift them into it if they’d go for it. Safer environment, less risk of injury, less worry for all involved on how emergency response would go. Paperwork is a small part of their current role, and if we reassign duties a bit across the team it could be balanced out. But we’d still need to hire an add’l person to cover that shift.

        1. Pascall*

          If it were to stay in the employee’s area unattended for any amount of time, I imagine you could make that work with a covered and locked crate in the area for the pet to be housed so it’s not roaming freely and so it won’t draw too much attention to anyone walking by. But that’s if you go with the first option of even doing that in the first place.

          The admin role may be worth a thought, if they’re interested in that and it wouldn’t effectively be lowering their pay or hours. That would probably be way more amenable to having a service animal at the office. I would propose it to them and see how they feel, if they were to go ahead with obtaining the service animal in the first place.

          Thanks for looking ahead though, I think the amount of preparation that you’re doing will pay off, even if it’s confusing right now.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            No change to hours or pay! Unless they want to change shift, which would be up to them (and still same pay, just whatever shift works for them). We could probably fit a crate for an average-sized dog out of the way.

            I’m worried for them. They’re very overwhelmed with life right now from a few angles.

    2. Colette*

      Is the emergency response team a key part of their duties? I.e. would it be possible for someone else to do that portion of the job?

      Have you talked with the employee about what they think? They’d know their needs better than anyone else.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yes. That is their main duty (>75% of job). They are the only staff member doing that covering that shift. \

        We have talked to them, and while they do not have the animal now, it’s a potential in the future and we don’t want to scramble later to try to get something set up for them – the more we can do now to make it smoother, the better.

        1. Observer*

          Well, I’d say to go back to the employee and explicitly discuss the problem. Ask them if they have any ideas. Is it possible that the animal could be on the floor with employee? Could the employee have a crate and crate the animal when they need to an emergency?

          Now, I realize that it could be that my suggestions make absolutely ZERO sense (or maybe even less.) My point is not really that I have any real idea of what might work. But your employee actually might have some ideas. Or they might be able to talk to the people who train these animals, and they might have some ideas. So, talk to the employee. And do it now.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            We have. For a little more information – employee is….very overwhelmed. I’m hoping a list of our concerns & thoughts will help with communicating expectations across the board, and hoping it won’t just be a “nope, can’t do, sorry”.

    3. Nethwen*

      (Genuine curiosity, not sarcasm) Why is the employee (prospective employee?) not best situated to tell you what they and their dog need? For example, unexpected loud noises would be stressful for many animals, but maybe this service dog is specifically trained to not be bothered by that environment.

      Or are you asking because what the person has suggested has been tried, isn’t meeting the need, and they are out of ideas?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        We’ve asked them, and they have no idea – this may be an issue in a few months, but this is also an issue that just has never been raised at all.

        There is no unexpected loud noise, it’s that it’s just loud as heck regardless (>90db).

        1. Nethwen*

          Oh, that’s got to be stressful on all fronts! Thank you for taking on the effort of doing what you can to keep this person in their job! The only times I’ve worked with people with service dogs, the human told us what was needed and that’s what we did.

          Does the agency that trains the dog have suggestions? Is the dog still in training? Can the person explain their work environment and ask that the dog be trained specifically to be able to work in those conditions? Do they make dog PPE? Could it be made? (Not asking for answers in the comments, just throwing out things that might be helpful to explore.)

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            For sure!! We’re waiting on the employee to get us more info. I’ve been around service dogs primarily in an office environment, which is a lot easier to work with. From what it sounds like, the dog would need to be trained for them? doesn’t currently exist? I’m hoping to help the employee get a list together too of what the expectations for access would be and maybe that would help everyone understand limits etc. Like, we have lots of ways things can light on fire or just *is* on fire.

            I’ve seen chemical protection gear for service dogs, not so much for sharp things/drops from height/fire retardant.

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      I’m assuming your concern is for the dog’s safety in a hazardous environment? There is lots of safety gear available for dogs, i.e. ear, eye, and foot protection, even PPE for chemical protection. I would suggest that if you provide safety gear for your employees, you do so for the dog as well. Just like you might need to provide different safety equipment for Big John, who is a big, big man (sorry, not sorry), and Jane, who is 5′ in her work boots (maybe), so Fido needs different, but equivalent, equipment.

      Other than that, it’s a matter of the dog being properly trained for the environment, which you are absolutely allowed to insist on and demonstrated, just as you require safety training for all employees, as well as safe behavior on the floor.

      I have a heavy industrial background, but it’s been a while, but I can definitely see how one would be useful particularly in emergency response. Those extra-sensitive eyes, ears, and nose could be very handy. We definitely could have used, say, a smoke sensitive dog, since there was always the chance of spontaneous combustion, the slow, smoldering kind, not the explosive kind.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The dog isn’t for emergency response, its’ for the employee’s health condition.

        We have very large, high pressure, high temperature equipment that I’m not confident we could allow the animal by… though I do very much want a doggo with lil tiny steel toe boots and a hard hat, tbh. There’s risks of things dropped from heights which I think is my biggest concern along with respirables. I don’t know how much we can ask about training for safety – that’s a lawyer question of course – but I don’t want anyone hurt out there.

    5. PX*

      Oof. Someone else commented and made the good suggestion that you contact whoever the service dog provider is and ask them for suggestions? I’m thinking that if dogs can be used in search and rescue operations and in airports as sniffer dogs etc, there *might* be dogs that are trained for all sorts of environments including yours. Whether or not that is actually the case is a different story.

    6. WellRed*

      I think there’s not all that much you can do until the employee gets an actual dog and they get all trained up for each other (sorry, sure there’s a better way to put that). The dog will be matched with employee, the employee learns to work with dog (personal, not job) and can then ideally work with you on accommodations. Probably with a side of legal or other advice.

    7. SofiaDeo*

      I am a little confused. A service animal is one trained to do a specific, necessary task or tasks for its owner. The animal generally needs to stay with the person, it can’t be crated away. If the owner has an impending epilepsy attack, or is having an incipient episode of hyperglycemia, or whatever else the dog does an alert for, it needs to be available and next to its owner 24/7. Since this employee’s job involves running around an industrial facility, I am assuming this person doesn’t have mobility issues and isn’t getting a dog for those, and a Medical Alert type Service Dog is needed for a condition more life-threatening. So I am not understanding how this employee “may” need a service animal. It sounds more like an Emotional Support Animal, which is not covered under ADA work accommodations. ESA designations are more for “no pet policy” housing when “pets” aren’t allowed but a person’s mental/emotional health would benefit from having one to care for. ESA’s do not enjoy the same accommodations by law true Service Animals do. Because if it’s a true Service Animal, outside of certain mobility help, it can’t be put in a crate away from its person. An epilepsy dog needs to be there. A diabetes dog needs to be there. A seeing eye dog needs to be there. A panic attack alert dog needs to be there. You can’t/shouldn’t crate a Service Animal away from someone. If the employee is “on board” with the animal being crated, then IMO it’s an Emotional Support animal and you can allow it at work to help him, and put any restrictions regarding areas it is allowed in, and when it is allowed in those areas. Unless there are local/state laws stating otherwise, this is my understanding of an ESA.

      A waist leash is an option for an inexperienced Service Dog/Emotional Support Dog owner to use, to train the animal to stay extremely close to its owner and adjust quickly if running, or sudden starts/stops are common. I have a service dog, and loud noises, etc. were part of his training as well as not sniffing around/investigating anything unless commanded. So your employees dog would not to react to loud noises, or wander around. But I am no longer working due to my disability and have no need to move around a facility quickly anymore. If there are medium to large chemical spills, with a number of people running around doing containment on anything other than small solids or liquids, I am not sure even a Service Dog could easily adjust to this, even a small terrier type used for, say, epilepsy. I can envision positioning an animal safely nearby for smaller spills, but large ones, especially flowing liquids, or fire or gas containment, may not be possible. If people are moving large tubs of containment solids or liquid barriers, a leashed animal would likely be in the way unless your employee is simply overseeing others, or the spaces are large so the dog could safely sit 10-15 feet away. It would have to be discussed with the dog trainers, and the dog specifically trained for acting correctly, in addition to whatever task the animal does for its owner. I would imagine this would involve some sort of training similar to what Police Dogs get (I knew someone who trained Police Dogs in certain tasks), in addition to the Service training.

      But it’s true that workplace safety overrides any employee need for a Service Animal. And if this person has developed uncontrolled diabetes, or epilepsy, or whatever necessitating a Service Dog, they may unfortunately need to be assigned different work. If it’s an Emotional Support dog, you can likely make most any accommodation you like, including crating. If your employee is considering an ESA, it would be a kindness to let him bring it to work, and it could safely stay crated in the employee open area if that’s where this employee generally is. Properly trained dogs are comforted by their crates, not stressed out. But be prepared to offer this accommodation across the board to all employees if it’s an ESA, I think if you decide to offer an accommodation to this person for his ESA you may have to offer it to all with ESA’s.

  93. Susannah*

    Hey all- I am applying for an undergrad level research internship and am working on my cover letter. I’m halfway through my BS, but having to take a break in school because my husband is active duty military, but he’ll be retiring soon. Should I mention his as the explanation of my break in my cover letter, or wait until I (hopefully) get an interview? Mentioning him right away, especially the military connection, feels off, but if they’re looking for students, I need them to know that I am still actively pursuing my education.

    1. Colette*

      If I understand this correctly, you were in school, are not in school now, but plan to return, is that correct?

      If it is, I’d mention it as “due to family circumstances, I am not in school but plan to return in September, 2022 (or whatever the date is).

    2. fueled by coffee*

      I would focus on how this relates to your own career trajectory – so saying something like “I completed XX credits towards my degree between August 2020-December 2021. Since then, I have been working at Teapots Inc. I plan to return to complete my degree in August 2021 (or whatever) with an expected graduation date of ___.”

      Alternatively, if you haven’t been working, you could say something like “I am very excited for this opportunity at ___. I am looking forward to building my skills in Teapot Painting before returning to complete my degree in August 2021…”

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Oops, August *2022.* Pandemic time-warp is real.

        In any case, I think you can talk about this without mentioning your husband’s career — though you can certainly bring that up if you’re asked directly about the gap in an interview. I imagine that during covid there are plenty of undergraduate students who are taking breaks in their education, though.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I wouldn’t mention your husband, because it isn’t really relevant. I’d probably go with some language like, “I’m so excited about X intership, because I have completed XX credits and am looking forward to returning to school in DATE to finish my studies in X. This opportunity will set me up well for X and Y as I continue my studies.”

      I would also check to make sure you don’t have to be enrolled in a program to qualify for the internship. I know that some of the ones I’ve supervised the person has had to be “currently enrolled” as a student for them to qualify. I couldn’t tell from your post if you are currently enrolled or not, so I thought I would mention it. Good luck!

  94. Syl*

    I’m looking to get into remote medical technical writing and editing. I currently work in a microbiology lab, I have 12+ years experience as a scientist, a masters degree, and lots of presentations/abstracts.

    What does this type of position typically pay? I looked on Glassdoor and the salaries vary wildly.

    What’s the best way to transition into this industry? Any advice is appreciated!!

    1. an editor*

      American Medical Writers Association has a salary survey and resources for people wanting to transition into the field.

  95. Minimal Pear*

    I cannot get my sort-of boss to respond to my questions. I am the office admin, and I’m the only one who goes into the office regularly. Because of this, I’m the one who checks and looks through the mail and figures out where it should go. However, I am fairly new here, and we get a lot of mail that I don’t know how to sort. The woman who trained me at this job said that I can ask her any questions about how to sort the mail, especially since a lot of it is stuff that will be something she needs to handle. However, it’s basically impossible to actually get a response from her about what I should be doing with the mail that we get sent. There are numerous letters we have gotten, especially in the last few weeks, about how we are late to pay something or late to send the government important information. I keep telling her every time that I come into the office that we have a new letter asking for us to please do the things that we are legally supposed to do. She has never, as far as I can remember, actually done anything about a fair number of these. I would love to do them myself but they require knowledge and access that I do not have and that I should not have, because it’s not part of my job to have it. For all I know, it’s totally fine that she is ignoring these things, and it has been approved by higher ups of the company. Honestly, it’s not really my problem, because it’s clear that I have been updating her and that the ball is in her court. However, it’s really stressful to come into the office and continually be confronted with letters about how we’re going to lose our health insurance or how we have not been fulfilling our requirements to the government. I don’t know if this is something that anyone higher up in the company even needs to be aware of, and if they should be, I don’t know how to make them aware because we are all remote. Should I just leave it alone and ignore the fact that she ignores most of my emails, even though she told me that email was how I should communicate with her about these things, or should I try to tell someone higher up in the company? I think the most annoying thing is that every once in awhile she will respond to one of my emails with a list of things I need to input on, and will only offer her input on one of them, even though there are five or six items on the list because we get a lot of mail.

    1. Colette*

      Can you set up a meeting where you can go through everything on the list? That might be more effective for you (and her).

      1. Minimal Pear*

        That does work sometimes, the problem is that I can’t always get ahold of her to set the meeting up–and her calendar doesn’t really show her availability so I can’t just send her a request.

        1. Colette*

          I’d suggest that you set up a regular meeting so that you don’t have to go through it very time – i.e. plan to meet every Tuesday at 4.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If it makes you feel any better, there’s a good chance that 75% of these “you must do this thing!” letters are actually scams. Still doesn’t excuse this person from actually fulfilling their end of the bargain, however.

      If you’ve opened the letters, you can probably do a quick “Is XYZ a scam?” search to do some additional sorting on them.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        One of the recurring ones is a scam but the rest are definitely from the government/our insurance. A lot aren’t asking for money, just paperwork/information.

    3. OyHiOh*

      If you have a printer/scanner in the office, I would scan every piece of mail (separate, labeled files so you can keep track!) and if it’s not immediately obvious who the final destination is, send the files to the person who trained you. This puts the problem squarely on the desk of the person who either needs to deal with it or best knows who to send it on to, and it creates an email trail of when you got things and when you forwarded them to be handled.

      I have a bad feeling that missed payments and governments deadlines are going to get blamed on you, if you don’t create a robust email chain of when you received paperwork and sent it on.

      1. OyHiOh*

        And yes, as Alton Brown’s Evil Twin above says, most of the “your SAM number is expiring!!!!!!!” type mail is, in fact for profit businesses charging you for what your boss logs in to a .gov portal and does for free.

        These cards are useful in my office for one purpose: Despite copious calendar reminders and two separate people (me being one) aware of what the registration/renewal deadlines are, my boss has a nasty habit of forgetting annual renewal cycles. The arrival of scammy for-profit mailers has a tendency to provoke him into action.

      2. Minimal Pear*

        I do have an email trail–when there’s this much mail I don’t send her scans of everything but I do say in the email “we got such and such from so and so they’ve been asking us to do this for months and now we have to do an extra step because we’re so late” and then figure I can give her separate scans if needed. Our scanner is also a little broken haha
        A lot of this is stuff I could handle if she gave me like two pieces of info, or it’s stuff where she already has everything she needs to handle it herself she just. doesn’t. do it. I’m not the only one who has trouble getting ahold of her/getting her to do things–people keep trying to go to me for stuff she’s supposed to do because she never replies, and I have to tell them I can’t help.

        1. I was told there would be llamas*

          Can you try guessing who things go to and ask them to correct you if you are wrong and they might know the correct person. For example, I am a tax accountant so anything with the word “tax” or “IRS” gets sent to me and if it’s not me, I know who it should go to.

  96. Today...Anon*

    My partner is in their late 30s and looking to make a career change from janitorial work to IT work. They don’t have a degree but are working on a google certificate and looking into other certificates. They have built their own computer and love computers. They never got a degree (for many reasons including a learning disability). Doing schooling online is great for them so they canearn at their own pace. Has anyone made this transition and have any advice?
    Thanks in advance

    1. Colette*

      Is school an option for them? What kind of IT?

      There are some non-degree programs that might help, but the specifics will vary depending on whether they want to do programming, network support, cyber security, etc. Some employers will want degrees, but that’s far from universal.

      1. Today...Anon*

        They are looking at support right now. The certification they are going for is Googles IT Support Certificate. I know nothing about IT so not sure of specifics apologies.

        1. Colette*

          Support is a good choice, it’s likely the easiest to break into. Do they have a network they can ask for help? Do they currently work somewhere where they could befriend someone from IT and ask for advice.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve haven’t made the transition specifically from janitorial work, but I did transition to IT work from a completely unrelated field without extra schooling or certificates. I’d recommend your partner doing some online support in various software/hardware communities. That has the double advantage of public “How does [your partner] solve problems?” and also belonging to a community, which may actually be networking to help your partner find a job. Maintaining a blog that has articles about how to solve problems (including step-by-step clear instructions with screenshots) can be helpful, too.

      If you don’t have experience, hiring managers in IT want to know what you can do and how you can solve problems. I don’t think certifications show that ability.

    3. Girasol*

      Networking. A lot of companies have a habit of saying “degree required” when actually that’s not what they need, but that could screen him out. So it might be good if he started early telling friends who know how good he really is that he’s looking. They can keep their eyes open for a place where they could put in a good word on his behalf and get him an interview.

      1. Generic Name*

        Yup. Our receptionist (no degree) just transitioned to work for our IT company. I think she probably talked to the owner and convinced him to take her on and train her.

        1. Today...Anon*

          Thank you both! They were focused for a while on not having a degree O am so glad this is a field where that wont hold them back.

    4. 867-5309*

      As others have mentioned, IT Support (first-level) is probably the easiest to transition to.

      I do know that when people want to transition to marketing, the Google, HubSpot and similar certifications are good but they do not necessarily replace higher ed or more in-depth training, and definitely to do not replace experience. Can you look at online community college associate degrees? They also often have good placement offices and if he has a learning disability, they can offer accommodations. (Avoid the for-profit ones.)

      There are also excellent professional organization that he could join that offer lots of helpful resources.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      My partner successfully transitioned from facilities (ie: HVAC) into IT. He does not have a higher level degree of any kind. What helped him was finding a job where they needed both a facilities person and someone who could do basic computer work and from there he was able to transition into full time IT for his next job. I think what helped him in his current position is that he is really good with people and extremely patient. So, when he started as an entry level support person, even though he didn’t have the degree, he had the people skills to excel in providing IT support. Even now, when he hires folks at the entry level, he is regularly shocked at how many people in IT do not actually want to talk to people and the job is 75% answering a phone and talking to people through issues. Good luck to your partner.

  97. Laney Boggs*

    What do you do when you’re 100% checked out, but there’s no end in sight?

    I’m bored and unsatisfied in this role. It’s not in my field and is something I took 2.5 years ago out of desperation, but then the whole world went up.

    Covid protocols are a joke. Management flat lies to us and customers. We aren’t paid well and everyone seems straight incompetent (ask me how long a customer has been sending a request for a $25 refund on damaged products).

    My patience has been going out the window, and, as much as I try not to let it show, it does. Any tips for keeping myself in check during a never-ending job search?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      How much can you find things outside work to bring you joy? I know that’s easier said than done, but when I was at the end of my rope at my old job, it was doing things not job hunt and not job related that kept me sane. Might work for you too.

    2. Chirpy*

      Honestly, I try to eat lunch in my car, facing away from the building just to give myself a few minutes “away”. Doesn’t work really well in January when you live in the frozen tundra, but it’s better than nothing. I hope you find something better soon.

  98. Pinkie Pie*

    I’m anxious about firing a client. Part of me worries I’ll miss the work, but the realistic part of me crunched the numbers and realized they are underpaying me and I’m not making a real profit for the time I’m putting in. We agreed that I would do a job and get paid X amount. I like the client but they’ve shifted so much work to me that we didn’t talk about that they’ve driven down my ability to profit from the work. Basically, I’m being asked to bag the tea, heat the water, and present the cup of tea and QA the presentation when the QA was the thing I was hired to.

    I’m facing my first serious health scare and had a biopsy Wednesday. It’s reframed how I value my time. I just don’t know how to phrase it to the client- I might stay if she returned to the original QA…. however, depending on the results of the biopsy, I may have no choice for several months.

    1. Kay*

      Have you had the conversation with them that because was for QA you need to charge due to the added tea making and serving? If you haven’t, why would you go straight to firing them without first having a conversation about this? If you both like working together something tells me this could be solved with a discussion.

      1. Kay*

        well – formatting didn’t work too well there.. should read..

        Have you had the conversation with them that because your old rate was for QA you need to charge new rate due to the added tea making and serving? If you haven’t, why would you go straight to firing them without first having a conversation about this? If you both like working together something tells me this could be solved with a discussion.

      2. Pinkie Pie*

        She and I are both from backgrounds that it’s customary to do less with more (governmental social services) and I’ve seen this pattern before. I’ve also reached BEC (bitch eating crackers) status with her and her micromanging.

        1. MacGillicuddy*

          Sounds like you need to spell out in writing exactly what you are contracting to do. Ideally you’d do this at the beginning before you finalize your agreement with the client. Then you can handle “delivery creep” by poi your that the new tasks are outside the original project scope, and it will take x more time and y more money to add them.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      “Unfortunately, XYZ task is outside the scope of our agreement and I won’t be able to take that on. If you’re still interested in my doing the QA, we can proceed. However, if you’re looking for someone to do both XYZ and QA, I recommend you find a different provider.”
      Tweak as needed.
      Then to prevent in future, have really clear definition of scope and something in the agreement about scope changes incurring 4x cost or something that’ll either dissuade people from scope creep or make it worth you time.

  99. Whatstheneuz*

    Does anyone who works in higher education/ community colleges have any idea how long hiring takes for a staff position? I have been through two interviews and and they have finished calling my references on Tuesday. I know these things can take quite a while but I’m used to things moving rather quickly after the reference portion.

  100. Ananononymymousous*

    Tl:dr – advice for person who gained skills over the course of ten years in a single… ‘job’/at least place, without that much turnover, who is burnt out for no reason and epically apprehensive about job searching, not least due to reference situations. Do/don’t look? Ask people if they would be references who I trust not to share prematurely?

    I feel kind of awkward because I’m in a good place generally, I’ve been wfh since before the pandemic, I like my coworkers as coworker-people, I mostly like my work, I am unlikely to get Covid and am empowered to do whatever I need to do to keep it that way, I don’t currently have children and do have a wonderfully mutually supportive partner. I’m paid (I think) well and have good (enough) benefits.
    I’ve been in this company for nearly 10 years. All the meaningful references who know my work well are still here with me, since I crossed fields as a beginner into my first position here and developed my present skills here in large part. I don’t feel justified in feeling burnt out, and if I went elsewhere one of my advantages (proprietary domain knowledge) would temporarily vanish. I find even the thought of job hunting is terrifying (I don’t like it at the best of times).
    I have things so much better than so many people. I do understand that I have the right to feel as I feel and I’m not unworthy of consideration in the world just because I AM better off than any other given person, and I can go give CBT worksheets a fresh start to help out, but… I just feel so terribly demotivated for no reason when it comes to my job, sometimes.
    I don’t know whether I’d even find a place that is even as good as this one… I don’t know whether I super lucked out to a place I could be comfortable and learn a ton in, or whether I’d find an equally enabling place if I looked.

    1. Colette*

      Have you kept in touch with anyone who has left the organization? If so, I’d suggest setting up quick chats with them – how did they find the transition, what do they like about their current job, what do they miss about your organization, etc.

      Are there options for other jobs internally?

      Have you taken meaningful vacation (i.e. a week or more) during the last 6 months? Maybe a vacation would give you more perspective.

      But …
      job hunting is scary, and it’s hard to do when you’ve been in the same place for a long time. It might be good to look around, even if you end up deciding to stay.

      1. Ananononymymousous*

        I’m pretty terrible at keeping in touch with any/everyone, though I know I should (and not even that I don’t want to, just “cost of initiating”) reach out to a few folks who have left. Only one of those people knew my work though / could be a reference.
        When I think about it, part of the issue is I’d feel weird about NOT getting a reference from my previous manager, who was my manager for about 6 years through a lot of my skill-ups and promotions. He’s still here as a high level independent contributor now (the transition was last year).
        I know there are jobs posted internally, but… The people I work with in my wider group are such a boon that I think I would rather make a complete break from the company if I were to move along.
        I took a two-week vacation last month, and while it was nice enough and I didn’t have a health flare-up during it for once, I got to the end of it feeling so tired and like I wanted to just magically extend it by a month, even though I didn’t really dislike what I was coming back to. It’s just that it was work. Ugh, I sound so whiny here XD

        1. Colette*

          I think you can start looking – apply for jobs, talk to people, etc. – without asking for a reference; references are often at the end of the process, and that can take some time. And sometimes just talking to people who know you to be competent can be helpful.

          1. Ananononymymousous*

            Thank you, I appreciate your advice.
            I think you’re right, if I reach out a little I may at least get some information or reality check from outside my bubble without just breaking it. There’s no telepathy that’ll make anyone aware that I’m looking around, or think I’m leaving just because I’m considering the possibility, and I’ve been wanting to reach out to the folks who are elsewhere anyway just to check in.
            I think I am on the fence and whenever I look over the top I can’t see what’s on the other side, so my brain says “it… might be a cliff… OH NOOOOOO”

    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Ok, health check time! Blood tests for iron levels, hormone levels, thyroid function, underlying hidden infections (think teeth) etc etc. you can be completely over it AND be low in iron – and getting the low iron level sorted will make a difference to how you cope with being ‘completely over it’.
      And I question “burnt out for no reason” – even if covid had had absolutely no impact of any kind on you, by some miracle, you are still living in a stressed, worried, anxious world now which is filled with people who are affected by uncertainty and tiredness. You also say “I just feel so terribly demotivated for no reason when it comes to my job, sometimes.” You are not demotivated for no reason, global circumstances are having an effect on you too.
      Ask your partner to help you get a few things together that you can use for a few minutes distraction several times a day – eg a jigsaw, with your role to just put three pieces in it at any one time. A colouring book and a few pencils. Some bubble wrap to pop. Where can you spend five minutes in nature, during the day? Can you sing a song in the car? What tiny things can you do for a minute’s ‘time out’? What can you listen to or watch that might make you smile, or even laugh? I recommend the cartoon Bluey for 7 minutes of amusement. Billy Connolly talking about anything. Jorts and Jean for online cat appeal and social change: https://mobile.twitter.com/jortsthecat Tiny steps. And a good health check. That is the start of change. Best wishes to you!

      1. Ananononymymousous*

        Ah, thank you for your suggestions and kind concern. I do have my health managed okay, and I take an iron supplement at certain intervals just as other supplements i.e. iodine. I have never had results indicating anything abnormal with my thyroid. I do have a chronic pain condition, but it is managed ok. I do have things that amuse me and make me happy every day.
        I perhaps wasn’t really clear in my ramble with regard to that this burnout feeling is fairly limited to the topic of work and job searching. When I felt exhausted at the end of my vacation, it was really just towards working again, even though this job is engaging, I have really good co-workers, am otherwise quite privileged relatively to how many others are and even how I used to be.
        I have realized through your and Colette’s posts that I a) need to establish contact with a few former co-workers, b) need to do some CBT worksheets regularly for a bit, and c) need to look around at the job market while assuring myself that nobody’s going to telepathically know I’m doing that and I don’t have to find a job from doing that searching right now.
        Thanks again for your thoughts. Much appreciated.

  101. DeterminedManager*

    I joined a new company last summer and my department was a bit of a mess. Badly managed, wasn’t generating results, had lost the confidence of the company. I initially was an IC and a regional lead. My global boss left and myself and another person were co-leading the team (myself still as an IC). He’s taking some leave for a while (and unsure if he’ll come back) and i’m taking over the team. I’ve got a few years of management behind me, but wondering if anyone has any advice on how to approach the new reports?

    My concerns are 1) they’ve been badly managed for years and have picked up bad habits/attitudes 2) I’m their third manager in 3 months 3) I’ve been a colleague and the role they hired me for was a lot more junior than I’m qualified for – I’ve been consistently outperforming. I’m not sure they realise the experience I do have. 4) we have a LOT of work to do and we need the team functioning, not plodding along until my colleague’s maybe return.

    Any suggestions on how to set expectations without looking like i’ve gone power mad in what could be a very short-lived set up?

    1. The cat's pajamas*

      I’ve been on the receiving end in this kind of situation before and appreciate your thoughtfulness.

      I was younger and didn’t understand the dynamics of how management worked above me at the time, which contributed towards the feeling that the boss was power hungry. It’s scary having a colleague supervise you because they know your flaws and you don’t get a fresh start like you do with a brand new manager you’ve never worked with.

      Are there ways to include the employees and give them some agency in the upcoming work? For example, give them some choice for which tasks to take on first? Set up some small wins.

      Can you help your employees feel more valued in some way? Three bosses in three months sucks. I had 4 bosses in a year and felt very expendable, it’s hard to be motivated to do more than the minimum when you’re not treated well.

      Best of luck to you!

  102. Nea*

    I’m looking for a script for handling the “How would you like to grow your career in the next year?” portion of reviews because – I don’t want to right now. I’m at the top of my field right now, so “up” isn’t an option. And just dealing with the pandemic and everything else (my job is politics adjacent) is taking 100% of my energy; there is none to spare for learning new tools or branching out in new directions.

    But we’re not allowed to say “I just want to do my job, go home, and pay my mortgage” are we? Because that’s what I want for this upcoming year. I just want to do my job which everyone acknowledges I’m good at, go home, and pay my mortgage. There’s nothing left in me for more right now. I’m surviving. That’s my growth goal.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You can always say that you just want to be more comfortable & confident in your current role – there’s always another decimal place to knock off your error rate or whatever equivalent metric you have. You can also say “now that I’m a Senior Llama Groomer I want to spend this year reflecting and being open to new ideas for later.”

      1. Nea*

        Oh. Oh, I like this script! “It’s not that I’m not open to new ideas, just not right now, thanks.”

    2. Momma Bear*

      Maybe say you recognize x, y, z about where you are and your current goal is to maintain and look for opportunities as they arise? Nobody knows anything right now. Will we have an in-person conference? Will it be virtual? Will it be held at all? Everything we thought about 2021 was…not.

      1. Nea*

        That’s the hardest part, isn’t it? We keep thinking “next year we’ll turn the corner, next year we’ll know how to deal with it, and… nope.

    3. not a doctor*

      Is there an area you can deepen your knowledge/specialty of? Maybe you can talk about growing “out” rather than “up.”

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I did a round of development planning for my team this fall, and 10/12 of them pretty much said “I just want to keep doing well at what I do now, is that okay?” and I said yes, absolutely, because while I would love to see people who want to advance get the opportunity to do so, the base work has to get done, and if doing that work is what they find fulfilling, then everybody wins.

    5. Distractinator*

      If you’re looking for fluff tasks that sound good, consider talking about sharing your knowledge, mentoring, “becoming a resource for the team” – though you may have to manage expectations to be sure it doens’t turn into an arduous concrete deadline. I think some combination of “I’m happy where I’m at” and a couple of “looking around for ideas for future activities” and “serving as a resource” woudl totally cover the bases.

    6. Peter*

      This year I want to continue to ensure that my team and I successfully deal with the transition from covid from pandemic to endemic, whilst dealing with “everything else” in a way that the Agency continues to be seen as (insert key Purpose buzzwords).
      Success would be that the team continues to develop, grow and be seen as the best at (insert key deliverables)

  103. Oreo*

    Hello AAM community!
    I applied for a government job back in September of last year (2021), I received the confirmation email after applying but haven’t heard anything back since. I understand that it can take a long time to hear back from government positions, but should I try to follow up? Is it too late to even bother following up? I had to dig a little to find a contact person but I did find an email address associated with the application confirmation.
    Any advice is appreciated!

    1. mah*

      Did the confirmation email say anything else? The last confirmation email from a government job I got basically said “you will only hear from us if we decide to move forward with your application.” Alternatively, can you check on the website of the agency in question and see if the position has been filled?

      1. Oreo*

        The email does say to keep an eye out for emails about the process, but it doesn’t explicitly say “you will only hear back from us if we decide to move forward with your application”.

        Looking at the website I don’t see a way to check if the position was filled or not, but the application process status says “received ” and the job position has been closed. That could mean it’s been filled – or that they’re just not accepting any more applications, maybe?

        1. mah*

          Hm. Okay, I think that it is on the longer side of when you would’ve expected to hear back anything. I feel like over two months with no contact is a bit much. Government jobs do take longer/more red tape sometimes, but this is a pretty long gap — but I’m small government and maybe it’s significantly longer in larger departments? Plus with COVID time is all kinds of fake right now.

          Personally, I think I would only reach out if it was really my dream job. And I’d probably reach out by saying that I’m worried I may have missed something/maybe it went to Spam, and wanted to touch base and check in. Otherwise I’d probably assume that after four months they aren’t going to reach out to me.

          It’s been a few years since my last round of interviews/job searching, but during that time I had actual interviews for two different government jobs, and they ghosted me. (One job that I was less interested in, which I didn’t interview for, actually sent me an email saying I didn’t make it to the next step and I remember being THRILLED that someone had at least communicated that to me).

          Sorry I can’t be of more help! I wish you all the luck for job hunting moving forward.

          1. Oreo*

            Thanks for the insight! It’s city government job in a large to medium sized city (Population ~250k), if that makes any difference. I think I will reach out since it’s one of the very, very few job leads in my area that looked somewhat promising. I’m trying to switch industries (think Teapot Designer to Teapot Production Coordinator) and the position is a perfect mix of the two. If I hear nothing back, I will just cut my losses and continue the job search. Much appreciated!

    2. 867-5309*

      I feel like Alison’s advice here is to just assume you have not gotten the job and move on. If they contact you at some point in the future than wonderful.

      1. Oreo*

        That may be best – I think I will reach out one time in case my application got lost somehow, but otherwise treat it like a loss and continue with the job search.

  104. Grouchy Grouch*

    There’s something bugging me for a while and I’m not sure if it’s justified that I feel so miffed or not.
    Im working in quality management. My role includes training and development of supervisors and employees and I create documents and spreadsheets for them to use.
    I have a steady salary that’s not based on efficiency or output and I don’t have a bonus plan like they do. The supervisors earn more than me plus boni on top, the employees less even with boni.
    Last year during Christmas time, several supervisors fell ill. Since we don’t do training or quality during that time because it’s just too busy and no one has time for that, I was scheduled for time off, but since we’ve been short staffed and I, as our training person know everything about the job, was asked to hop in and help out.
    In fact I did most of the work of two supervisors except the disciplinary management of the employees. In January I received high praise. I was told that my involvement was directly responsible for us being able to finish the deadline for a client that already was disgruntled and not being able to fulfill the contract would have cost us the whole project for sure. Then my boss announced I would get a bonus like the others despite not having a bonus plan.
    Of course I was very happy about that and everyone agreed it was fair.
    Then, all of a sudden, their boss backpedaled and announced that somehow it wasn’t ‘fair’ if I received the same bonus like everyone else since I wasn’t a supervisor or front line employee but ‘just admin’. My boss joked and said that was true, since I did the part of two people I should get twice as much.
    The next pay period came and I got my bonus. The other manager had indeed intervened and my bonus was a joke. I got 15€.
    At first I thought it was a mistake. It’s exactly one tenth of the usual bonus! My boss thought so too and went to inquire. But no, that’s it. She then went to bat for me and did everything in her power but didn’t get them to budge. Her own boss didn’t back her up. Somehow me doing the exactly same work and more isn’t enough to get the same bonus. My boss then declared that this was the first and last time she’d lend one of her quality admins and the next time they could go fish if finding themselves in a lurch. This was met with a shrug and so be it.
    I’m miffed. I really feel, well, offended. It feels as if my work and engagement was deeply devaluated. It also fits in the pattern of my department always being ‘forgotten’ when raises or boni are renegotiated and my boss battling weeks to even get neccessary costs approved, not to mention getting us any raises at all in a timely manner despite us providing all the necessary ground work for the other departments. The job itself is good and I like my work. But I got the impression that’s just because of my direct boss liking me and the company as a whole doesn’t really see my contribution and the bonus was just the last prove I needed to realize that.
    Now I have the strong urge to go elsewhere, to just jump ship and start job searching now.
    But it’s nagging on me. Am I too sensitive? Am I overreacting?

    1. irene adler*

      You went above and beyond the scope of your job, mollified an unhappy customer and in return you get a token bonus? And some praise? And some not serious comments about the value you provided?

      Time to take your talents elsewhere. A company that appreciates hard work rewards that hard work. No joking around.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Nope, not too sensitive! All of that sucks so hard, and the $15 bonus is a slap in the face. (Though honestly a $150 isn’t a super great bonus either, but that’s just me and besides the point.) I think you should start looking elsewhere – you’re clearly in a department that is undervalued and you’re never going to have your contributions seen fairly. Looking elsewhere doesn’t mean you immediately have to leave, but I think you really would benefit from seeing what else is out there.

      And 100% stop doing any extra work for other departments. They don’t get to call your contributions worthless and then benefit from those contributions at the same time.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m not sure I understand the timeline or the pay structure. Are these bonuses awarded every pay period, or annually? Getting 10% of an annual bonus when you only pulled this extra duty for a few weeks doesn’t seem out of line to me.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        My thought is that if this was a prorated bonus, Grouchy Grouch would not feel as miffed and their boss wouldn’t have had to go to bat for them. At the very least, the higher ups could have said “you were only there for a fraction of the time so you only get a fraction of the bonus” and not “nah it’s not your official title so you get nothing”.

      2. Grouchy Grouch*

        Those are weekly bonuses. I was paid later because I’m not regularly on the bonus plan.

    4. Purple Cat*

      So a different department’s boss was able to get YOUR bonus downgraded?
      That’s a big problem right there. I can understand you getting a smaller bonus since you only helped out for a short period of time. But that decision should be 100% your bosses, and his chain of command, not somebody else’s. It sounds like your boss supports you and tries to fight for you, but if the overall company politics leave your department unsupported, then that’s not enough…. You might want to think about switching jobs.

    5. Channel your grouchiness*

      You’re not being oversensitive. No reason to rush, but yes, you should channel your entirely reasonable response to this abuse by looking, on your schedule, for a better job. When you are crafting your resume and cover letter, note that the plural of “bonus” is “bonuses” not “boni” … maybe you were trying to be funny, but if so, I found the joke confusing.

      1. Grouchy Grouch*

        Thank you. I’m not a native English speaker. I just got it confused. I will of course write my resume in my native language, so that won’t be a problem.

  105. Can't Sit Still*

    Home office chair recommendations, please! I am on my fourth chair of the pandemic and it’s a BodyBilt Sola LT supplied by my company. It’s ok, but not great. It’s better than the previous 3 chairs.

    The only office chair I’ve ever really liked and been comfortable in was the Aeron. Is it still the gold standard? I need a wide, short chair with lumbar support that reclines easily, which describes the Aeron. But I wanted to double check and see if I’ve missed anything, since I haven’t had an Aeron in at least a decade, and they aren’t cheap. But I just got my bonus, and I think it’s worth investing a good chair that’s going to last a while.

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Check out the OfficeChairs subreddit (google “office chairs reddit”), they have lots and lots of recommendations, including cheaper alternatives to the Aeron.

  106. Annie J*

    Have a bit of a strange query, but I was wondering if anyone has ever use the concierge service provided by circles.
    My company has decided to add it as a benefit and while it looks interesting, I’m not sure how it works and would like some insight if possible, I’ve looked on Google but the website is pretty vague.

    1. Can't Sit Still*

      Yes! I’ve used them for everything from finding a cleaning service that works on Saturdays to researching cars that matched my specifications to hiring a courier to deliver some urgent items when I was unexpectedly admitted to the hospital. The research was free, but I provided my credit card and they paid the courier on my behalf.

      They can act as a travel agent, buy and send gifts, and do all kinds of research for you.

  107. LC*

    We hear a ton about “team building” and other various “fun activities” that are terrible ideas, that go wrong, that don’t accomplish the goal at best and actively go against it at worst.

    Does anyone have any stories about ones that went well?

    I was recently asked to join my company’s activity committee, which went kind of defunct at the start of the pandemic (I’ve only been there less than a year) but they want to start up again. I think rather than specifically focusing on team building, they want to focus more on “fun” stuff that could just be fun or could also be professionally enriching. I know there is absolutely no way that one idea will make everyone happy, but I’d like for us to come up with a few things so that most people will find at least one that they’ll enjoy.

    It was fairly easy for me to come up with some “don’t”s to suggest (i.e. no mandatory “fun” after work hours, no mandatory “fun” during work hours, don’t have everything revolve around alcohol or doing physical sports or eating platters full of various meats, don’t punish people for not participating/reward them for participating, stay out of people’s health, try to keep it fairly equitable for remote and in-office people, etc.) but actual suggestions feels a little harder. I’d love to hear what’s worked for others.

    Here are a couple ideas I’ve come up with so far:

    “Show & Tell: Work Edition” – anyone could sign up for a 2-3 minute segment to tell others about a cool project they just completed or a new useful feature they might not know about yet or this awesome excel trick they just learned – totally optional to participate as either an audience member or a speaker, doesn’t last too long (30 minutes? an hour?), during work (if it were in person I’d suggest catering lunch but we’ll be a mix of at home/in office split and people who are fully remote in various states)

    Fantasy football/baseball/basketball/etc. – I think a lot of people would like this, but we would definitely need to consider the traditional betting aspect. Rather than people paying a minimal amount to go toward a pot (which I don’t like but have seen done plenty of places) maybe company sponsored prizes for the winner or top few (i.e. gift cards, PTO days)?

    Guest speakers – Talk for employees re: work related things that are actually interesting (Thought of this after remembering one of my favorite podcast hosts, Kristin Russo, does work speaking engagements about creating safe & equitable workspaces, allyship to LGTBQ colleagues & communities, etc.)

    Game hour with Among Us or something similar

    1. Pascall*

      Absolutely losing it at the thought of my department playing Among Us as a team building activity LOL. I think there are card games like Mafia and Werewolf that might be fun too haha.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Show & tells, or lunch & learns, are always good.

      We did something fun the other day — since we’re all still WFH, everybody took a picture of their desk setup and sent it in to our culture committee. They posted the pictures in a Slack channel, we all tried to guess who each one belonged to, and then they did a 10-minute reveal at 4:30 on Friday. We voted on who had best coffee mug, which one best reflected the personality of the owner, etc. It was fun because there was no pressure, it was asynchronous, and it was whimsical.

      2. LC*

        Oohh I like this. I love the idea of something asynchronous but I know the few times they’ve tried something like that in the past, it just didn’t get any engagement.

        I think that’s 100% due to how it was done though so definitely worth another shot.

        I think this is a good balance of being kind of fun and personal but not being super invasive, ya know?

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      At Halloween, my team did a virtual parade — anyone who wanted to participate sent in pictures of them, their kids/grandkids, pets, porch dinosaur, dressed up for Halloween, and I whacked them all together into a powerpoint and shared it out. People who didn’t want to participate didn’t send in pics or look at the thing, and people who did want to, could. That’s a seasonal one, but you could do a pet show or a craft show or “hey everybody send in a picture of your favorite childhood toy/book/whatever”. We also did occasional virtual pitch-ins, similar setup where anyone who wanted to sent in a recipe to share – could be themed, cookies, desserts in general, mocktails, side dishes, I did a Thanksgiving one one year, or you could just throw it open and accept whatever recipes.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        I like this! Every once in awhile there seem to be funny TikTok trends for this kind of thing, like “show the weird stuff in your parents’ house” so something like that could be fun too – like send a picture of the most random tchotchke you refuse to get rid of, favorite souvenir, etc. If it’s the kind of thing your office gets into you could come up with a lot of different themes (have people submit them!)

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Celebrating birthdays with a lunch is simple but has almost always been successful in my experience. My company would pay for the immediate team of the person with the birthday to go out lunch if in person, or get reimbursed for delivery if having a birthday lunch on Zoom.

    5. Dragonfly7*

      Show and Tell went very well for us in a virtual environment. I particularly liked that I got to meet so many people’s pets. Similarly, could folks sign up for a time slot to just talk about something they are really passionate about? Their running club, a hobby, a collection, a lifelong obsession with X topic?
      Something I’ve really enjoyed attending is Battledecks, where people try to do presentations based off of slides they’ve never seen before. It is usually really funny.

      1. OyHiOh*

        Similarly (and because we all know that one person who will take “try to keep it to about 3 minutes” as license to carry on for 10) Pecha kucha.

        Each speakers submits 20 photos/slides. You get 20 seconds per slide to speak and then you’re done. Combining pecha kucha with battledecks could result in great merriment for all!

        1. Siege*

          A social club I’m in did Ignite Lite where I think it was 10 slides on auto-advance and the time was 3 minutes. I would recommend this format rather than open-ended Show and Tell – nothing is worse than listening to the guy in my other club who doesn’t take social cues or outright statements of disengagement and is busily not explaining some kind of collectible card game to a group that is telling him they are uninterested. If I had known he was on deck, I would have avoided the meeting because I have limited patience for him and need to manage it carefully and last weekend was not great for me. I love hearing about other peoples’ interests, but I really like it when the format is one where I don’t have to worry they’ll keep GOING and GOING and GOING.

    6. Decidedly Me*

      We do Show and Tell at our all company meetings and it’s everyone’s favorite part.

      There are a few activities that people can sign up for as they wish – cook together, fitness hour, etc.

    7. Alexis Rosay*

      Oh, one other thing I enjoyed was a “virtual gift exchange”. We drew names from people who were interested like a regular gift exchange, but the “gift” could only be something virtual and free—a meme, a YouTube video, an article, etc, anything online the recipient might like. We had a lunch where we revealed the “gifts”. It was very easy, no one had to spend any money, and it was fun to see what everyone had picked out.

    8. Can't Sit Still*

      Just a note on fantasy sportsball teams that, if there is money involved, it’s considered gambling and if you use email, it’s online gambling, which may or may not be legal in your jurisdiction. Your company may have a policy against using company devices for gambling, too. Definitely check first! Company provided prizes, even cash or cash equivalents, would be ok, though.

    9. Colette*

      Back when I was working for a company that was in serious financial trouble (and thus had no budget for fun stuff), we did an Amazing Race. It went on for 6 weeks (?); teams of 2 had to enter in advance and were allowed alternates if they couldn’t make it, and one team was eliminated every week. Those who wanted to entered; those who didn’t were invited to watch the challenges. We did it at lunch, with the goal of the 2 challenges of the week taking 30 minutes. Teams then left at staggered times the next week based on when they arrived.

  108. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Thanks to everyone who responded last week to my question about my direct report who’d raised her voice to me! I’m happy to report we had a good conversation about it, and our communication has gotten better. I am a bit worried she walked away with the impression she can yell at me to get her point across, but I think we at least laid the foundation for more productive conversations about this in the future if (when) it happens again.

    Thanks!

  109. NoMoreOffice*

    I am so excited! I’ve finally decided it’s time to leave the job I’ve been at for nearly 5 years. I’ve realized it’s been toxic for quite a while now and was kind of thinking I should probably get out soon. My 2% pay raise this year decided me. In the time I’ve worked there, my pay has only gone up $1.97, while my workload has increased exponentially. I can get more money with decent benefits working at a call center, why should I keep stressing about a job where I will never be valued as anything other than a mindless drone?

  110. Alice*

    Is it worth it to negotiate for an increase in PTO?
    I’ve been interviewing and was very excited about a particular job..until I saw that their PTO package is less an half of what I currently get. I recused myself from the process, but then HR came back and said I could negotiate for more PTO as part of my offer. I wouldn’t be willing to accept anything less than the package I’m leaving, but I’m curious if their abismal PTO policy is a red flag that they don’t value quality of life outside of work.

    For background, all of the people I’m interviewing with have been there for 6+ years, so I imagine there are some benefits. However, as the parent of a young child, I’m concerned about having the necessary work-life balance. Not to mention that their current PTO offer is barely the duration of a full COVID quarantine..

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Can’t hurt to try! Oh and make sure you have them specify in your offer that the increased PTO amount is for every year, and not just for this year – just in case they try and do something slimy like take it back next year. Hopefully unnecessary but I feel like I’ve heard stories of people losing negotiated for perks after the first year.

      You should also ask about work-life balance! I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask the people you interviewed with about those supposed other benefits that have kept them around despite abysmally low PTO.

    2. beanie*

      PTO was actually the only thing I negotiated for in my current job! After 10 years at my last company, I did NOT want to start over with a terrible vacation policy.

      Could be a red flag that they don’t offer that as standard, but you pushing back (and if they decline, explaining how it’s not industry standard or competitive) might be something that makes them reconsider their policies.

      It’s a least worth asking so they know that it’s something people are asking for when they can’t figure out why no one wants to work for them. (related to Alison’s recent Slate article)

  111. Oreo*

    You’re not being oversensitive at all. That bonus is hardly worth the extra time and effort you put in, and you have every right to be upset that you’re not getting fair compensation. It’s somehow even more insulting that you only received a small amount rather than no bonus at all.

    It’s good that your boss supposedly has your back – but if the rest of the company doesn’t see your value? Not really worth staying in my opinion. They may or may not try to take advantage of your skillet again, and your immediate boss can only protect you from the other higher ups for so long.

  112. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    So, my 38 year old brother started working for an athletic wear startup back in October. He started off just working in their warehouse, but after about a month got bumped up to “Warehouse Operations Manager.” This is… not a role that he is remotely qualified for, but he told me the owner was “training him on the job” and “the money was good.” Fast forward to now, and he’s talking about demanding a raise because he is “scraping by” and “needs more than a pittance.” Which was when I found out that he was making not too much less than I do… and I’m not badly paid. And that he is supposed to get a pay bump in March that will put him on about the same level as me. Also that he has no budget, gets paid weekly by request so he “doesn’t have to go a whole week with no money” and has no budget. And he’s going to continue renting a house that is WAY beyond what he can afford because he’ll get a roommate eventually (he seems to think one will magically appear). And shortly after that I found out that HE IS 100% BEING PAID UNDER THE TABLE. My mom thinks this is “GREAT!” because “it’s all tax-free!” and… how? How is my family so dumb? Why is my brother 38 years old with zero life skills and common sense? All of this is happening around a really complicated story involving a Hinge date that wound up squatting in his house and refusing to leave, and a history of him turning to the women in his life to constantly bail him out/rescue him from terrible situations that he creates, and I am just… stunned that *I* am the only person in my family who sees anything wrong with any of this. HOW? WHY? Argh. Anyway. He is a grown up and his choices are on him. But he does periodically come to me for advice about job stuff (he just never actually gives me full details/omits anything he thinks I would tell him is not great–he doesn’t know that I am aware of the being paid under the table thing, for example, or that he is not paying taxes). I love my idiot brother, and he probably needs at least one person in his life who isn’t going to just tell him that every idiotic thing he does is great. I am trying to think of a good script (for when he inevitably calls me and asks for advice about work stuff) explaining why working for this dude but not being an official employee is bad, not paying taxes is bad, that I won’t be giving out advice while he is being a dummy, I will NEVER be giving out any money to him, and also that he’s not going to live in my garage when we’re elderly because he made terrible life choices. Help?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you refer him to a financial literacy course or an accountant other authority figure that isn’t you? Maybe he’ll believe the advice if it doesn’t come from you. Even a web course would work. You could generally ask him about his retirement plans especially since he’s not paying into social security.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I’ve actually tried all of that previously (minus the retirement plans since he isn’t paying into social security because he hasn’t called me since I found that out) just because I thought he could really benefit from some structure and basic life/job info. He always enthusiastically agrees that it’s a good idea and he’ll look into it at some point, then passively waits for a woman in his life to sort everything out for him instead. And any time anyone asks him anything that he finds uncomfortable or that might make him feel like he’s not making good choices he gets upset and doesn’t talk to the person in question for a long stretch of time. Sigh.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Does he read AAM? If I wanted to get someone interested in AAM, I’d probably try recommending a question/answer that the person would find hard to resist. Then hope that he keeps reading.

    2. irene adler*

      Assure him you will write regularly when he’s serving his time for failing to file/pay his taxes.
      I have it on good authority that receiving mail on the regular is one of the few joys in life for those who are incarcerated.

      Some people just will not listen or learn. It’s hard because there’s nothing you can do but observe the train wreck when it happens. My brother is in prison. Tried to explain that what he did was not something he’d get out of via paying a fine and/or serving probation. He did not believe me.

      I write to him weekly.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        You’re probably right. He seems to think that things will just magically work out and he will always get what he wants. I just don’t know how anyone could be THAT out of touch with reality… I feel like there are fiscally responsible high school kids who would be horrified by this, so how is a 38 year old man this clueless?

        1. irene adler*

          It’s worked for him thus far. No reason to think otherwise.
          Unfortunately that’s not a very responsible mindset.

      2. WellRed*

        Was coming to say this. “ hey, you will eventually be on the hook for all this money and could go to jail.”

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Right? I just can not get past how this very obvious detail hasn’t been overlooked, it hasn’t even been considered… it makes my brain go all fork in the garbage disposal.

    3. Aphrodite*

      Alas, you can’t help him. And there is no magical script. You really need to find a way to let this go now. I speak from experience.

      These are not forward. thinking people; they are not considering how he is going to manage when he is of retirement age and has no social security, no pension, and possibly no medical insurance. Out of four siblings I have–we are all in our sixties–only one brother and are working or have worked in decades. The other seem to see nothing wrong with their lifestyle and they have been saved by government programs and, oddly, Covid. (Our mother died in May 2020 and we all inherited money, each in the very low six figures. Nice but nowhere near enough to last the rest of our lives.). None of the three seem the least bit worried about it. And I am absolutely firm in my own mind that I will not help anyone of them with anything, not even one penny. Unlike you I have no guilt about it; if they end up on the streets then they want to be there.

      Don’t annoy him with advice; he. really doesn’t want it. My guess is that he is setting you up as a “second chance” for when he does need money; he’ll feel he can come to you, and that you will respond positively, because since you were there with advice you will also be with money. Most of all, don’t cause yourself stress. Stop giving advice and turn it back on him to learn how to handle things himself: “What are you going to do about that?”

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, I think you’re right. My mother has asked me once or twice if I have given him any money in the past few weeks, and I think she and my brother probably discussed me as a bail out possibility for him. I just honestly don’t get how anyone could think “no paper trail, no paying taxes” is a good idea, so I guess my brain is just trying to find the magic words that will cause the growth of common sense.

        1. WellRed*

          So my brother didn’t pay taxes for two years due to money issues (self employed). Bring in the pandemic when he would have qualified for pandemic unemployment and stimulus extra and… he didn’t qualify because of not paying taxes. One way it another, you pay.

    4. PollyQ*

      He is a grown up and his choices are on him.

      Lean in, HARD, to this attitude. Do not make his problems your problems, and your best path to happiness is leave him to live his life as he sees fit, even if he’s making terrible, ignorant decisions. IF in the future he asks for money or a place to live, then you can say no, but you don’t need to alert him to this now.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, I am going to have to just let it go. Though it might be a kindness to let him know in advance that I won’t be his safety net—I wasn’t exaggerating about how he expects the women in his life to do everything for him. Managing his emotions, managing his life, fixing his mistakes—the gender dynamics in our family are and always have been MESSED UP (which is why I’m basically the black sheep—I’m the only daughter and I won’t cater to the dudes). He broke up with his fiancé and our mom is on a fixed income, so he’s going to take my saving his kiester as a given. Last week he tried to manipulate me into manipulating our mother to give him the money that she would have been spending on his rehearsal dinner next year if he hadn’t broken up with his fiancé. :/

        1. tangerineRose*

          “it might be a kindness to let him know in advance that I won’t be his safety net” Yeah, it probably would be. Although he might not believe you.

    5. Koala dreams*

      It sounds very stressful for you, but as you said, you can’t change your brother. Focus on doing other things together. Tell your brother you can’t be his sounding board any more, it’s too stressful, and change to a better topic. Cooking, TV, cute animals?
      “Let’s agree to disagree. Did you watch anything interesting on TV recently?”

  113. mah*

    I was wondering if anyone had any advice/had dealt with something similar: I’m the second in command at a small government job, and despite everyone knowing better we haven’t been dealing with the pandemic well (an employee tested positive, had symptoms, and was able to return to work because he ‘asked nicely’ — not my decision. and required notification didn’t happen because I was out with a planned event one week, etc.). I am doing everything I can to communicate what we need to do/should do to my manager, but because of this he sees me as being ‘confrontational’ and ‘always challenging him’. Which has limited my success.

    I am looking for jobs elsewhere.

    But my question is two part: 1. does anyone have any advice on how to handle being accused of being confrontational when you’re trying to bring up legal issues/safety issues? 2. what are my obligations to my reports, if and when I do get a job elsewhere. About half the people who report to me are equally frustrated and know I’m doing what I can (the other half are the ones who want to come in when they’re sick), but I still feel like I’m letting them down if I leave and they don’t have me to do at least some advocating.

    So yeah, any thoughts would be appreciated, I’m at my wits end.

    1. irene adler*

      Well- for #1- accusing you of being confrontational is simply a ploy to dodge the real issue- safety and legal issues. It may be because manager does not have a remedy for said issue(s). And is unwilling to admit this.

      Don’t bite. Get back to the actual issue(s).

      “No no, the issue here is [legal/safety issue]. Please, can we develop an action plan to remedy [legal/safety issue]? Or is there a reason that management feels [legal/safety issue] is not worth remedying?”

      For #2- there’s no formal obligation to your reports. Let them know of your efforts- names of those you talked to or followed up with, any actions you tried to take, etc. So they know what’s been tried before.

      But if you do quit, you can offer to assist them with their job search. Be a reference, for example. Proofread a resume- if they ask you. Make introductions to those whom you know may be hiring.

      Some places are dumpster fires and the only thing anyone can do is get out.

      1. mah*

        Thank you for this.

        I definitely get frustrated and sometimes flustered when I’m told I’m being confrontational, so having some specific language can’t hurt. (I’m not sure it will work, but it’s something new to try and that’ll help my mental health if nothing else.)

        I still feel bad for them, but I’ll make sure to start some more documentation of efforts to leave with them, and of course make the reference/assistance offers.

        Thanks again for responding! I’m just very frustrated and tired.

    2. pancakes*

      Get yourself out of there ASAP. Hopefully the other people there who are uncomfortable with all this are looking as well, but you can’t wait for them to find new jobs before moving on yourself. The problem doesn’t seem to be that you’re confrontational with your boss, but that your boss doesn’t care about keeping people safe. It does sound like people should be made aware that the notification system is unreliable, if they don’t know that already.

      1. mah*

        Yeah, that’s the goal. But unfortunately I do need to have a job lined up before leaving (for money to survive reasons, curse you late stage capitalism), so it’s a matter of surviving as best I can at the time. I am currently applying far and wide, so fingers crossed I can flee sooner rather than later.

        I will say that the manager is planning to leave in the next two to three years, and I think that some of the others have done the calculations and are willing to stick with it. And it’s possible because I have to deal with him a lot more often then they do, but that’s not something I’m willing to stick around for.

        I have managed to get documents from our insurance provider for COVID notifications, and have managed to get using them as is (almost entirely) approved, so that they’re on file and available for future reporting. Which, unfortunately, still doesn’t mean they can’t be filled out wrong, but it helps. And I think a lot of times it’s the manager saying how he wants things filled out and everyone else just shrugging and going with it, regardless of legally what we need to be saying. When I’m present I can make sure that reporting is taking place appropriately, and I think most of the staff are aware to take the notifications/lack of notifications with a grain of salt, but I’ll make sure to bring it up casually during my check ins with staff. Thanks for that recommendation.

    3. Vaporize*

      I had a tough boss who could get really head in the sand about legal and financial ramifications of things and just…did not want to hear it and would make the whole thing unpleasant. So if you are thinking about leaving, I would differentiate between legal and safety issues. Use the scripts others have suggested to push back about safety concerns. Legal issues are yours to flag, document that you’ve raised, and then CYA that they didn’t do anything about. This might not work for the specific legal concerns you mentioned, but in my case I felt I could ethically feel that it was no longer my problem once I had put in a good faith effort to raise concerns.

      1. mah*

        I have started documenting everything even more comprehensively than previously, but I definitely appreciate the reminder. And I am also being very careful these days on what I actively sign off on, versus what I give to him to sign off on (since I don’t think we should be doing it legally, I don’t want to be in the position of having to justify signing the record). Most of what I’m most worried about are legal AND safety issues. Or maybe, it’s easier to say, I’ve already given up on most legal issues (beyond, as you said, bringing it up, documenting, and CMA), but the ones about safety, specifically where it’s in regards to legal requirements for reporting/planning/training/cleaning about COVID are a bit more personal. Since it’s not a matter of “Manager has decided to ignore this State Act, we might have to go to court/pay a fine/etc.” and more “actively endangering the health of my staff and myself”. Most baffling is this guy was all gung-ho about vaccine requirements, but regularly takes his mask off in group settings and wants positive individuals back at work as soon as possible.

        2. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

          That’s unfortunately common: a lot of people were thinking that masking, isolation, and so on were only necessary while we were waiting for a vaccine. And it feels unfair that we did all those things, and then we got our vaccines and boosters, and we still need to mask and worry about ventilation and distancing.

          Hell, I feel cheated too–but I’m capable of staying home, masking, avoiding crowds, and so on and resenting the continued necessity.

  114. Sloan Kittering*

    Alison’s throwback to her job hopping article reminded me that I need to figure out how to fix my resume. My recent career hasn’t gone to plan, after a six year tenure at one role, and I’d like to job search now but I feel bad about my record. I thought the first two-year job hop was my “gimme” but the job I’m in now would be pretty tough to hang onto for three years – I would be missing out on a lot of money during my prime earning years if I did that. So I will end up having two, two-year jobs back to back, aka, I look like a job hopper. I think this looks better:

    2 year job right after graduation
    2 year job – pretty junior level so I don’t think anyone would be surprised I wasn’t there that long
    7 year job (shows I can stick around)
    2 year job – wasn’t what I thought
    2 years freelancing (to present)
    – client
    – part time position for one year at current job
    – client

    Rather than this:
    2 year job after graduation
    2 year job
    7 year job
    2 year job
    1 year freelancing (FT)
    1 year current part time job while simultaneously freelancing PT

    To be fair, the freelancing situation was during the pandemic, which I think people can be understanding about.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Obviously, I would love it if my next job was a really great one that I could stay at for four or more years happily; that’s my goal. I am in a field that struggles to give people raises or promotions, or I should say, they’re happy to give promotions but not compensate for the increased responsibility. But it’s not a field where job hopping is common. Does it make a difference if I keep on this current PT/PT situation for another year?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it’s appropriate to clump the freelancing stuff together, but I don’t think the “rather than this” section makes you look like a job-hopper.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          Freelancing is one job, really. So your freelancing + PT work I would count as a single entry in terms of tenure.

        2. Colette*

          “freelancing” and “part-time” are important details, though. It’s understandable that someone in a part-time job might be looking for a full-time job; that’s not a red flag. I think you should use the second one because it’ll make it easier if you want to use examples from your part-time job in an interview.

    3. Green Beans*

      I think the first option looks better – but I’ve honestly never quite made it past two years at a job and it hasn’t been an issue-partly because it’s really normal in my field (planning to stay longer at my current job, which is awesome.)

    4. annonie*

      When she responded to you about this on this morning’s post I thought her reply indicated something like this would be fine. She said it’s about a pattern of staying less than 2 years, which is not what I see here.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        She still says three years though! I understand her point that one year is not automatically “safe” and that 2-3 years can still be too short in many fields.

        1. annonie*

          No, she doesn’t say 3 years. Go back and read her reply to you again. She very clearly said 2 or 3 years depending on your field and she said the same thing in the first article you were responding to. She clarified that point to you this morning when you asked about it. You keep turning it into 3 years for some reason.

  115. Former manager*

    What can I buy/make as a thank you gift for my daughter’s workplace?

    They’re a computer services provider to small businesses. They have gifted me a refurbished laptop that has never been opened, just docked, so it looks brand new. Originally, my daughter thought they’d charge me a few hundred dollars, but when she brought it over, she said it was free! So now I’d like to say thank you to her boss and the person(s) that worked on it.

    They do like treats and baking, which my daughter does occasionally provide. Most of them work from home most of the time but they do come into the office sometimes.

    I was thinking of baking, but it would have to last for a few days to catch most people. Does anyone have a better idea? There’s about 20 people in the company.

    1. Dragonfly7*

      If you have the time and energy, could you do smaller batches for a few days, like a “cookie of the day?” Or a jar of the dry ingredients you would use?

    3. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Do they have a fridge at work? Could you make a ‘slice’ of some kind that lives in the freezer, the biscuity chocolaty sort of thing that basically thaws in a couple of minutes? We have had some chocolate brownie cake in the freezer for a few weeks now and that is very yummy, a piece of it goes from frozen to tasty in about two minutes.

  116. New IRS System Freaks Me Out*

    I think this is appropriate for the work thread as it relates to work taxes – if not, I’ll re-post it on the non-work thread tomorrow. Are people concerned about the new IRS ID requirements where you have to upload facial data? I pay quarterly estimated taxes as a freelancer so I am going to have to use this crappy system. I do not want to upload facial data to some creepy third-party ID database which, if not used for evil in and of itself, will certainly be hacked by those who wish to use it that way. Is there any workaround to avoid having to do this? (I’ll include a link to what I’m talking about in the next comment, in case you have not heard about this).

    2. Pascall*

      You’re totally not wrong to be freaked out by it. I think most people are rightfully squicked out about the IRS using a third-party company for this kind of thing. It reeks of Zuckerberg style “all-your-data-are-belong-to-us” business models.

      Unfortunately, I’m too exhausted by past freak-outs about data breaches and privacy concerns, so I didn’t really do a whole lot of due diligence when signing up for it. (They can steal or sell my data I guess, I’m not very interesting and don’t have much money.) But I don’t think anyone who is skeptical about it is wrong to feel that way at all. It feels really sketch.

      Fortunately, you don’t need to register for the service to FILE taxes, but you will need to register to see records of previous payments, see previous years’ transcripts or to access the Child Tax Credit portal. So depending on what you need to do, you may not need to use it at all.

    3. Dragonfly7*

      I also find it creepy! Plus, it creates an access issue for folks who don’t have smartphones, webcams, scanners, or some other way to upload data.

      1. New IRS System Freaks Me Out*

        Yeah, I don’t like it for my own personal reasons, but there’s a whole equity issue apart from that.

    4. Generic Name*

      Wow. That kind of freaks me out too. But the DMV already has our facial data, so….. I file my taxes through an accountant. I wonder how that will impact my tax filing.

  117. Eether, Either*

    Happy Friday, AAMers! I work in the legal dept (there are 4 of us, including a VP) in a very large company (think thousands of employees that builds Giant Teapots). The company is behind the technology bandwagon, unfortunately, but IT has been stepping things up in the last year. We, as a department, need several types of data storage options for large documents–in length and quantity. Problem is that when I make a request for them to look into software to assist us, I hear nothing. My requests are very clear, short and very specific. I suspect our requests tend to be overlooked and, presumably, dropped to the bottom of their priority list because other much larger departments, production, for instance, are seen as more important than legal. Which is somewhat true. It takes weeks and weeks before I even get a “hey, we’re swamped, but we’ll look into this and get back to you soon” email. I send reminders–for instance, today is our department meeting and I sent them a message last week asking for an update from the original December email so I can present it to my attorneys at the meeting. Absolute silence. I send these emails to several people, including the director of IT. Any ideas of how I can move us closer to the top of their list? Thanks, and have a wonderful weekend, all!

    1. BackOnTheMarket*

      Has the VP in Legal reached out yet directly to the Director of IT? In my experience, that is often the only way to get movement on things in a large corporation. I don’t know what your title is but I’m guessing a VP would get a response….particularly an email from the VP to the Director of IT suggesting that the director’s employees have been nonresponsive – I personally hate doing that kind of thing but sometimes it’s necessary.

      1. Eether, Either*

        Yes, thank you! I’m the VP’s admin. She said today I just need to let her know, as she talks to the IT’s VP on a regular basis. We’ve had to do it before. I feel the same about doing it as well and had fingers crossed for another way. But I’ve exhausted all other methods.

  118. Nick*

    What’s the politically correct/HR approved/etc way of saying “1-2 levels above entry level”?

    I’ve been scolded for using junior, early career, etc. Titles aren’t standardized in my role/field. “Blah Blah 2” could be 6 months experience or 10 years depending on the company. My company has levels but they’re meaningless externally so I can just say X3.

    I need someone who isn’t brand new to the work world but isn’t so senior that they’ll turn their nose up at “please do the following 15 things.” I honestly don’t care how many years of experience they have. If someone with 40 years experience just wants or needs to be told what to do and the salary works, awesome.

    I work at a desirable employer, for lack of a better way to explain things. Folks often apply to ANY role just to get their foot in the door with a hopes of moving internally after 3-6 months, which we don’t allow. Others will apply to roles clearly below what they want to be doing in hopes of forcing us to up level the role. Or they’ll show up and then try to push their way into strategy and planning meetings. Ugh.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you just say “Llama groomer” and then list the responsibilities in detail? Do you really need to specify a “level” for some reason?

      It’s pretty easy to tell the difference between:
      “cleans tools and restocks supplies for other llama groomers, shovels out llama pens, maintains grooming records”
      and:
      “develops new grooming styles, performs quality assurance on the work of other groomers, formulates long-range market plans”

      1. Dr. Tea Blender, PhD*

        I think listing responsibilities like this is a good idea and you could throw in something about “this role involves completing tasks assigned by your manager/team lead/etc., with a focus on detail in executing tasks as assigned,” in the job description and communicate it in the interview to convey that the role is more of a “do these things” role and not a high level responsibility role.

        If it’s not so much that you care about a ceiling for years of experience, but you don’t want someone thinking they are overqualified and can jump out of the role, think about translating the role into skills/personality fit (for instance, if you are a very detail-oriented person who likes routine, a role where you’re doing these 15 things might appeal to you). Just continue to communicate “the expectations of the role are x” and look at who is okay with that and who tries to push back.

        You might also, if you get an interested candidate who seems to have the sort of experience that is a red flag that they’ll try to push into strategy, to ask about it in an interview. For instance “I see from your experience on your resume you’ve done a lot of work in strategic llama grooming marketing. This role is more focused on supporting our senior llama groomers doing X, Y, and Z. That’s a shift from what you’re currently doing. Why does this shift interest you?” And have a conversation in which it spells out that you’re really looking for someone to do the specified work.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Mid-level? I feel like that offers a pretty wide range of coverage, I’ve seen it used to mean anything above entry level but below senior.

    3. Haha Lala*

      I’ve seen plenty of postings the specify the job title based on internal levels, but give it more context to make sense. “Level 3 Llama Groomer, job duties includes duties assigned to level 1 and 2 groomers and the following…” That gets the points across that this is a few steps up from entry level.

      I don’t think you’ll be able to write a job description that will weed out people who just want to work for your company. That’s something that would need to be determined case by case in interviews/phone screens.

  119. MusicMama*

    Hi there commentariat!

    Has anyone successfully transitioned from a typical 9-5 job to a creative job that actually paid the bills? The pandemic has caused me to evaluate my career and I was hoping that those who were successful with this kind of change could provide advice/insight on what worked and what didn’t… appreciate any help that can be shared. Thanks!!

  120. Pichi*

    Not quite a question but thought this group would appreciate the story. Earlier today I was to be on a call with some external auditors through teams, I called in on my computer, camera on, and get the “the host will let you in” message. A minute or two go by, nothing, I figured they must be running late. By minute 3/4 I start getting anxious and open the invite again and decide calling in from my phone. Eventually, I connect and apologize for being late, explaining that I was on my computer waiting to be let in. That’s when someone tells me that they could see me all along and thought I had heard everything that was being discussed. At the very least, they saw me scrolling through my phone, half uninterested, half panicked, but now I’m wondering if I was also picking my nose, making weird faces or taking my top off running in circles, and I just can’t remember. I have never hoped for my video to be as blurry as it usually is (my internet is terrible). Feel free to share any embarrassing stories so that I can feel less alone

    1. OyHiOh*

      I just sent out a notice in our direct emailer . . . . . and forgot to delete the “insert your text here” type box at the bottom of the template. D’oh

    2. Watcher of news*

      This story for Pichi is one that some folks have already heard about, but I don’t think it can be beaten for embarrassment. The author Jeffrey Toobin (accidentally?) exposed himself during a Zoom session. “I didn’t think anybody could see me,” he said. He had to take eight months off, but he’s back on TV again, so let the moral of the story be that no matter how awful your experience was, Toobin survived this one, so don’t feel so alone. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/10/media/jeffrey-toobin-returns-cnn/index.html

      1. pancakes*

        Not a great example. He did get fired from The New Yorker after an investigation, where he’d been a staff writer for nearly thirty years, and which is a much more prestigious position than working for CNN.

      2. pancakes*

        I suppose I should add, it’s also a poor comparison because he was pleasuring himself, not merely scrolling on his phone! What Pichi did or may have done isn’t nearly as eyebrow-raising.

    3. Coenobita*

      I spent several minutes today waiting for the host to let me into a zoom meeting.

      I was the host.

  121. Sabine the Very Mean*

    What should I do about my boss? She’s a female misogynist and is open about it. Has said to me more than once that she hates working with women (would she tell Bob that she hates black people or Mohammed that she hates Muslims?). She told me when I started about a woman in the office who had big breasts and did nothing to “control the bounce” as a way to tell me to dress modestly. She’s on a recording from before I started badmouthing my staffer while said staffer was running a public meeting–boss didn’t know she was unmuted and no one felt safe calling her out about it. It’s from 2 years ago and we still have a copy of it because it’s illegal to delete or modify them. Should I send it to HR? She’s about to get a new female boss after 10 years of having a male boss with whom she is part of the good ol’ boys club. Should I tell new female boss?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Holy sh!t yes go to HR, she is acting incredibly inappropriately. And the fact that you have receipts? Perfect.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I discovered we have a civil rights complaint process. I work for a state gov agency. Is my female boss telling me and other females that she hates women and prefers working with men enough of a reason to file such a complaint or do I need concrete evidence of her using that hatred to discriminate against us? I don’t have much more than she is generally a nasty mean person.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I think the fact that she’s a woman might be throwing you off a bit – if a man said they hated working with women, would you hesitate to report him?

          I don’t know how government agencies work and what that specific complaint process entails, but you absolutely should be reporting her behavior somewhere.

      1. pancakes*

        Why not file a complaint about what she’s already said, though? If she starts saying more of the same to or about the new boss, that can be added to it. I don’t see a good reason to wait for more of the same.

  122. Who helps with finances?*

    Looking for the title of a professional “help me deal with money” person for individuals in the United States. I know someone doesn’t need to be an accountant to be a professional tax preparer, but the person we got to do our taxes last year messed up and our refund was delayed for 6 months :( So do we need a whole accountant? We’d ask for help filing personal taxes which are complicated by us renting out our condo, so we’re landlords. Would an accountant also be able to give savings/investment advice? Or is that a financial counselor? I know there are advisors that are legally obligated to give you the best advice you can (none of this “invest in my crypto” nonsense) — are all of those also accountants? What are the terms I should use to search for? Thanks in advance!

    1. CatCat*

      For investing and money management, a “certified financial planner.”

      Probably not the same person who would do your taxes, but may be able to recommend an accountant.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are plenty of small bookkeeper businesses who will handle the grunt-work of money management for your landlord business, and lots of them will who also file your taxes. But they aren’t CPAs, and they probably can’t give you investment advice.

      You may be able to get financial advisor services from your bank, especially if you have a business account there.

    3. Five after Midnight*

      I recommend you look for a “Certified Public Accountant” or CPA in the same state as the condo you are renting out. Typically, a CPA will be able to offer tax preparation and general investment, retirement, inheritance, and tax planning advice. Look for a smaller office run by sole proprietor or 2-3 partners with a few staff – these generally provide the best cost-effectiveness for individuals. For anything they cannot handle, they will likely be able to send you to their professional network (tax lawyer, financial planner, etc.).
      You are right that to prepare a tax return, one does not need any credentials – this is why the tax prep business is such a wild west and invites many unscrupulous fly-by-nighters (not saying yours is one, just in general). “Fiduciary duty” is the name for the conduct of advisors obligated to give the best advice to you in your specific circumstances regardless of their own views and motives. CPAs are held to a very high fiduciary standard and since they are licensed by the state, you can always complain about their conduct to the relevant licensing board.

    4. 867-5309*

      I have a tax preparer AND a financial advisor for investments, retirement planning, etc. Happy to make specific recommendations, if you want one.

      My tax preparer is a CPA.

    5. Girasol*

      My neighbor suggested her CPA when my taxes got complicated. His service isn’t cheap but his good work has saved me more than he charges. He gives me a lot of good advice on how to handle finances to reduce the tax bite in the future too.

  123. BackOnTheMarket*

    I’m afraid I’m looking like a job hopper. I’ve been in the legal field just over 20 years: 10 years in law firms, and now over 10 years in in-house/corporate roles. Beginning in 2011, I had an almost 8 year stint with a Fortune 50 company. I was not looking to leave that job, but my job was relocated and I couldn’t relocate with it. I took another corporate job that was less prestigious, but a reasonable commute, decent salary – but otherwise ended up not really as-advertised. It was seriously underutilizing my skills, and when I realized it was not going to change, I started to look again out of fear that I would end up with outdated skills down the road. I ended up being there just short of 2 years as I was determined to be picky about my next job. I ended up taking a leap of faith on a recommendation of a friend to join a start-up type company with an interesting role mid-2020. I have not met anyone I work with. It’s been a year and a half and while the work has proven interesting, it’s become clear to me that I do not mesh with start-up culture. Lesson learned (again). Now through a combination of bad luck (and arguably bad decisions), I have two back-to-back short stints on my resume. I know how this looks – I will need to break this pattern and stay at the next job for quite a while to break this pattern, so I am terrified of making a bad choice again. I like the people and the job itself is ok but the work-life balance is non-existent. I have spoken with my managers about it and their responses to my concerns are what made it clear to me that this is a culture thing that doesn’t work for me. Should I just keep trying to tough it out with my current position to get some longevity back on my resume?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      You’ll know your industry best, but two ~2 year stints after 18 years of consistency, especially when one of those shorter jobs was a bait and switch, and the second one is discovering you don’t like start-up culture, doesn’t exactly scream job-hopper to me. Also a majority of that time was spent during the pandemic, so I think we’re all afforded a little more leniency while the world burns around us.

      Again, you’ll know your industry best, but if you’re unhappy I think you’re in a good position to start looking now. Who knows how long it will take to find something you really like? I don’t think you need to beat yourself up over this, it isn’t the horrific mistake you think it is.

      Good luck!

    2. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I don’t think that sounds very job-hopperish at all. Especially… Pandemic.
      Plus, you have good reasons for looking. Deciding you do not like the startup culture is a valid reason to look for a larger organization with more stability. Basically, as long as you can speak reasonably as to why your looking and what you’re looking FOR.

    4. BackOnTheMarket*

      I probably should have clarified that the first 10 years of my career/law firm experience was in a couple of firms, including a 1 year stint at a small firm after I lost a longer tenured position due to lingering effects of 2008 recession. Again, I took a band-aid position because I needed a job and leapt at the in-house opportunity that came along a year later. (My recession experience told me to get far, far away from billable hours. ) That was 12 years ago – and like now, a weird time in the ecomony. I guess maybe I should think about it like that. I have some “blips” but they are all tied to global/economic events. I’ve just never been in a position to be able to afford to not have a job and fortunately am also in a position where I can always find one. So instead of having a period of unemployment, I have periods of bad fit jobs.

  124. CalAH*

    I have a good update!
    I interviewed for a promotion earlier this week, for a job that would move me exclusively into Teapot Design instead of Teapot Reception and Design. I reviewed interview tips from this website. The interview went well. This morning my Teapot Design manager told me I got the promotion.
    I do not have a written job offer yet, so I will wait to tell my coworkers. I am excited. I am also a little nervous. During the interview (which was with both my current managers) I was told that if I got the job I will be training my reception coworkers to do more of my current duties. One of those coworkers is the unpredictable person who shares COVID misinformation and transphobic stories at work. Training her sounds nerve wracking but is not an immediate problem.
    I also used the conversation with Teapot Design manager to come out as trans. He was very supportive. Here’s hoping coming out to everyone else goes this well.
    Thank you all for the advice and support.

  125. awesome3*

    Update request — if you’ve ever written in to have Alison help settle an argument, I am really curious about who won and what the other person’s reaction was when you showed them the column. Next update season or even before then, I would love to know the outcome, due to my own nosiness.

    1. Anonymouse*

      Heheh I don’t think this counts but I did write Alison about my coworkers (a very low stakes issue) and they saw the article on line and laughed about that it sounded like us :D Alison told me to leave it alone so basically she took their side anyway, so they won either way :P As far as I know they didn’t seriously believe I wrote the question, although there’s a chance someone suspected.

  126. Ricky Rick*

    I’m in the interview process with a big company (name rhymes with “Froogle”), for a fairly senior role, and their internal recruiters insist on cold calling me for Every Single Thing. Calling me without any advance notice would be fine if, for example, there was an interview scheduled today but the interviewer couldn’t make it. But they are not doing that. What they’re calling me for is just small updates on whether or not I’ve passed the current round or if they need some more information from me — stuff that can and should go through email.

    Honestly I kind of want to withdraw my candidacy because they are seemingly insistent on not getting it. Whenever I get a cold call from them, I say “hey, look, you’re calling me at work, this is not the time, please send me an email,” and they genuinely seem confused! Then when replying to that email, I reiterate, “thanks for emailing me so quickly, I’d prefer all non-urgent communication to go through email from here on out.”

    They sort of have an attitude of “WTF?! We’re Froogle, we’re the best, you should be ecstatic that we want to talk to you” and that doesn’t gel with me, because I like my current job. If I get an offer that’s better than current job I will take it, but the interview process is how we decide on that, and during it, I insist on being treated like the professional with in-demand skills that I am.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’d just stop answering your phone, honestly. “I can’t answer my phone during working hours. I do check my email throughout the day, that will be the best/only way to reach me between 8-6.” And then stick to that. You keep picking up so they’ll keep calling, it’s technically working for them so they have no reason to change.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        Yes, I totally agree. Have you let it go through to VM? Do they just leave a message with that info or do they ask you to call them back?

        1. Ricky Rick*

          If I don’t pick up, they just call back about an hour later.

          BUT, the numbers aren’t always the same aside the area code, and since my parents are older and I’m their emergency contact, I’m reluctant to ignore random calls that are coming from our city.

      2. Ricky Rick*

        That’s not really possible because I’m the emergency contact for my parents, who live in the same city, ergo same zipcodes, as the Froogle guys (so do I, tbf). Not always the same number. So I pick up, because what else am I gonna do — let a call that could be from the hospital go to voice mail?

        2. A Simple Narwhal*

          Most hospitals have the same first 6 numbers for all of their numbers, and only the last 4 change. If you know what the main hospital number is, you can know to look for a call from (123) 456-XXXX. Or just quickly Google the number while it’s still ringing and decide whether to pick up or not.

          Also, you could wait to get a voice message, see who it’s from, and then either immediately call them back if it’s an emergency or ignore it if it’s a recruiter. I don’t know how much of a risk your parents are at and how likely you are to get an emergency call on their behalf, but it seems like you’re putting yourself out on the chance that both of your parents are incapacitated at the same time (or one is capacitated without the other knowing) and a hospital is calling you.

          Again, you know your life best and the recruiters should respect your request, but they’re not, so I think your choices are to either keep answering your phone, google the number before picking up, or not answer all calls and check your voicemail.

    2. pancakes*

      Maybe I’m missing something, but it doesn’t sound like these are cold calls. It sounds like these are calls from recruiters you’ve already spoken with, and/or their coworkers. Why not just screen your calls?

      1. Ricky Rick*

        Maybe, but they’re unexpected, I’m my parent’s emergency contact (relevant because same area code), and I have told them this at least four times so far. Both over the phone and in email. Either way, they’re unwanted. I don’t know any way to be clearer than writing in “please contact me over email unless it’s urgent.” Knowing whether I need a visa transfer or if I know anyone else at “Froogle” isn’t urgent.

        I know “Froogle”‘s internal sourcers and recruiters aren’t the people I’d work with if I took a job there, and I’ll likely never speak to them after I’m done with the interview process. But it’s still incredibly annoying that they do not respect me, and sometimes I get annoyed by it and want to tell them I’m no longer interested because of that.

        1. pancakes*

          The recruiters are being annoying, but if this were me I just wouldn’t answer. I pretty much never answer my phone unless it’s a friend. Anyone calling me for an emergency will leave a message saying it’s urgent, and I’d rather look at the voicemail transcription and call them right back if needed than answer every call from certain area codes. I suppose it depends on your parents. My stepdad is not in super great health but on the rare occasions he’s had a medical emergency he’s called an ambulance, not me.

    3. 867-5309*

      These don’t sound like cold calls since you know who it is… agree with others about just letting it go to voicemail. Also, I wonder if this is their process in a misguided attempt to reinforce how much they want you for the role?

      1. Ricky Rick*

        Also, I wonder if this is their process in a misguided attempt to reinforce how much they want you for the role?

        If so, that’s really clueless IMO. They should listen to me saying “please email” instead the first, definitely the second time, I said it. This has been both email and phone, so they should know. I think that “don’t call candidates, employed or not (I am employed), midday, without any advance notice” is pretty basic and simple. Am I out of touch for assuming this?

        1. 867-5309*

          Not at all! Super annoying and I would feel the same. Just trying to troubleshoot what their thinking might be…

        2. River Otter*

          You are not a good fit for Froogle. You are experiencing a difference in communication styles, and the fact that you cannot identify this speaks poorly to your communication and collaboration skills. No, it is not simple and basic not to call people midday. That is just a preference, and it is not a universal preference. Calls versus emails are another communication preference. Some people prefer the former, some people prefer the latter. Neither is more correct.
          You are very black-and-white about what you think communication styles should be, and that is not going to serve you will in a collaborative atmosphere. Unless you can learn to be more flexible in your communication style and more accommodating to other people’s’ communication styles, you will probably not fit in well.
          Skills are more than just technical skills. Soft skills are also very important. Your technical skills might be very much in demand, but your soft skills, as you have exhibited them here, really need work.

          1. annonie*

            I think this is rudely put but correct in substance. You may prefer email. They may prefer phone. You need to be prepared for both when you are applying for jobs. I can understand if you were privately annoyed but it is part of the deal when you are interviewing. You are going to find it from a lot of employers.

          2. Ricky Rick*

            Your technical skills might be very much in demand, but your soft skills, as you have exhibited them here, really need work.

            This is incredibly rude, condescending, and feels against the rules. My original post was half vent about not being listened to when I ask them to email, half asking if I can make it any clearer. There’s no reason to extrapolate several paragraphs abut how I’m supposedly immature and unqualified from that.

          3. pancakes*

            This is a bit much. There’s nothing collaborative about them simply ignoring his requests to email rather than call, and there’s nothing that suggests he’s been surly when he takes the calls.

          4. Tinker*

            Uhhhhhh…

            Not that soft skills aren’t important, but folks who work for Froogle and in the froog industry in general are if anything notorious for disproportionately having clinical levels of “rigid” and “black and white” social tendencies relative to the general population.

            I assure you, there are people who work for Froogle who don’t do well with unscheduled phone calls.

            Plus which I’d say that actually it is a relatively standard norm that at least verges on “simple and basic” that unscheduled *recruiter* calls during the work day are a party foul even among people who otherwise don’t have problems with communicating on the phone.

            1. Ricky Rick*

              Super belated but +1. It’s a remarkable stretch to assume I have zero soft skills, especially when I am glad to pick up the phone for anyone in my organization. If I have zero soft skills, then how have I stayed in the same industry for a decade, at the same company for half that decade, and why do I keep getting promoted? :P

              Random unexpected calls during the workday are a whole different thing. Especially when you’re a senior’s emergency contact. For a while, we had a home health aide for my father, and they would occasionally call me up to ask what to do when the nurse’s shift was ending a couple of times because my mom was out on an errand that took longer than expected and couldn’t be reached.

              The interview process is a two way street, and my whole question was, “I don’t like the recruiting team’s behavior. They just ignore my requests to not call me midday unannounced, and they barely even acknowledge those requests. Does it make sense to extrapolate this annoying and unprofessional behavior to the rest of the organization?”

    4. Decidedly Me*

      I know some other folks that have interviewed with Froogle and all found the process…interesting. For different reasons than the ones you’ve mentioned, but definitely a common theme of “that was weird”. It seems like their process is geared more toward recent grads than established professionals, too.

      1. Ricky Rick*

        “It seems like their process is geared more toward recent grads than established professionals, too.”

        I also got that vibe. I’ve been through their process before and took my current job instead. Each HR/recruiting/sourcing person I’ve spoken with has asked me how enthusiastic I would be about an offer if I got one today, which is a very weird question to me. If we both decide it’s a good fit, in team, culture, compensation, I’ll take it. That’s all there is to it, IMO.

    5. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      This was exactly my experience interviewing with Facebook. Their recruiters are aggressive. It’s because they’re handling 50 other people. Also, you should take this as a sign of what their culture is like. I’ve never met anyone who was happy with their time at Google.

  127. Alice in Wonderland*

    One of my staff members brought me a concern about our DEI training and the materials around it. He told me the word Latinx is incorrect and it should be Latino or Latina. He said does it not make sense in gendered language and most Lation people don’t like the term. He’s Latino. I’m a white woman. The DEI that made the training and materials are white, Black and South Asian, there are currently no Latino members on the team. I’m struggling with how to bring up his concern. Any tips? I appreciate it.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are published polls from places like Gallup about those kinds of subjects. IIRC, the term that’s actually most popular is “Hispanic”.

    2. I was told there would be llamas*

      I don’t see anything wrong with the way you phrased it here. I’ve read articles online about that before so maybe try Googling to see if you find any if you want more “support” for your position.

      1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

        Please don’t be the person telling a white woman to google “how to prove to my brown colleague that his opinion about his own identity is wrong.”

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          ???????
          Alice in Wonderland is looking for resources to bring her Latino colleague’s concern to the DEI team. She’s not trying to prove that anyone’s opinion about their own identity is wrong.

    3. OyHiOh*

      I just had a conversation about this with a coworker of Hispanic background

      Upshot: Latinx has been in circulation long enough that most people recognize it. However, there’s a growing sense in Hispanic communities that the grammatical form (adding x to the word) is strictly English and therefore a colonialist influence. The pushback preferences are for Hispanic or Latinea in place of Latinx.

      I think that, given clear specific feedback from someone who already works for your company, your DEI team should look at alternative ways to phrase the ethnic identifier.

    4. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      I’m Mexican-American. That’s the term I prefer. I’m not offended by “Latinx,” but it is definitely a term that was made up by white women for their own benefit. There are plenty of people from Latin America who prefer “Latinx,” and plenty who do not.

      I am, however, actively offended by “Hispanic.” “Hispanic” means “from Spain.” I am not from Spain. My family is not from Spain. My Mexican family is of indigenous origin, as are all brown people from Latin America. That term is more colonialist than “Latinx,” I feel.

      1. River Otter*

        I have seen provenance of the term Latinx claimed by queer Latin online communities. Saying it was invented by white women really erases those communities.

      2. Anon for this*

        I’m pretty sure the term was made up by / first adopted in Spanglish-speaking LGBTQ+ communities and in particular was used by nonbinary and genderqueer people. I agree that nowadays I mostly hear it from people within the progressive activist space, many of whom are do not speak Spanish and are not queer. Though in my circles, the people saying this are mostly not white either, since I live in a majority Asian-American community. All that said, I understand why many people don’t like the term.

    5. Anon for this*

      From my POV, the best thing to do would be to just take the concern to the DEI team and let them action it how they want. I would forward it directly – “A concern was brought to me that…” Or you could say you read an article about it if you think there would be retaliation against your staff member.

      If it were me actioning the concern, I’d make sure the guide had a note explaining all popular related terminology and their histories and aims rather than pick just one. The term i hear my feminist native speaker friends use is “latiné.” Or latin@, though I’m not sure whether or not that’s inclusive for non-binary people.

    6. Who is Baby Monkey?*

      No advice, but wanted to add a few thoughts not rooted in personal experience but from the perspective of a white academic whose teaching/research intersect with this topic. Hope that’s OK.

      Building on some of the responses, I’d just say that trying to pin down one “correct” term would be impossible for any racial or ethnic category, but especially for Hispanic/Latino/Latinx, because these terms are comparatively so new and each of them is much-debated.

      The notion of a Hispanic ethnicity – which presumes, for example, Mexican Americans, Cuban Americans, and Puerto Ricans share an ethnic identity (not a foregone conclusion at all) – doesn’t really get popularized until the late 1970s and early 1980s. G. Cristina Mora and Arlene Dávila have fascinating books on this process, which involves activism, the creation of a new census category, advertising, and Spanish-language broadcasting. Yet well into the 21st century, many individuals who check the “Hispanic/Latino” box on the census continued to identify with a national origin group (e.g. Mexican American) – between 80 and 90 percent depending on generation – while only 65 percent identified with an umbrella category like Hispanic/Latino. (These numbers are cited in Latinos in the New Millennium: An Almanac of Opinion, Behavior, and Policy Preferences).

      IME Latinx is widely used in academia and in more left-leaning (I use that term broadly to include NPR, for example). I have seen colleagues who themselves are Latino/Latina/Latinx defend the term Latinx vigorously on social media, but that’s very anecdotal. I have also seen the polls, for example a recent one from the Pew Research Center that suggests only 3% of those who checked Hispanic/Latino/Spanish origin on the census identified as Latinx and three-quarters had not heard of the term at all. (Link in reply).

      When I find myself needing to refer to US residents of Latin American origin or background I tend to use something like Hispanic/Latino/a/x, which is clunky and doesn’t solve all the issues, but does suggest that there is no consensus about the preferred term, which is to be expected given that this group is extremely heterogeneous and even the idea that it constitutes a single group at all is historically quite new.

    7. River Otter*

      DEI has to be intersectional. Latinx is used by queer and non-binary Latin folks, and I think their concerns trump any cis complaints that the word does not fit in a gendered language.
      You are asking us how to bring it up, not asking us for solutions. I think bringing it up just as you brought it up to us would be fine. If you have an employee group for Latinx/e/a/o people, then when you bring up this employee’s concern also suggest that it is something to engage the Latinx/e/a/o group on.

    8. Chirpy*

      First off: I am not Latina or Hispanic, so please defer to someone who actually is. This is just my observations as someone who speaks some Spanish, but it might be useful.

      1. As others have said, although Hispanic was previously used as a blanket term, it is generally now preferred for just people of Spanish descent, with Latina/Latino as a general term for everyone from Latin America, regardless of their ethnicity. Think of it like calling everyone in the USA “English” because of speaking English, when the majority of Americans do not have any English ancestors.

      2. Latinx is a more recent way to try to add a non-gendered word to Spanish, because your coworker is correct in that traditionally Spanish would be gendered. To my knowledge, the problem was that there wasn’t a good way to have a more generic term, and the former way to specify a group of people of unknown or mixed gender was to use the masculine form, which is becoming problematic now (similar to how English used to use generic ‘he’, and has now switched to singular ‘they’, or “fireman” to “firefighter”, only Spanish doesn’t currently have that option.)

      3. One option I’ve seen in the past was “latin@” (because it looks vaguely like both an “a” and “o” at the same time) but that was more around 15-20 years ago and “latinx” seems to have replaced it, at least in the English speaking world. I’ve also seen “latino/a” but it can be one of those kind of awkward things like writing “s/he”. Latinx also has the advantage of including people outside the male/female binary.

      4. One thing I *haven’t* seen much for some reason is there is actually a neuter word ending in Spanish – “e”, so it would be “latine” (pronounced latin-ay) but as far as I know it’s only used for a handful of words, and basically objects. So this might be the equivalent of calling a person “it”. I don’t speak Spanish well enough to know if this would be offensive, though, so I’d err on the side of not using it. It would be similar to how some other gendered languages are creating new gender-neutral forms (like Swedish) but again, I really haven’t seen it in this kind of use in Spanish.

      1. Who is Baby Monkey?*

        I think gender works a bit differently in Spanish – there are plenty of words for individuals that end in -e (docente, presidente) but they are used with a male or female article (there is no neuter gender). The “e” ending is a recent invention but I don’t think it’s problematic for that reason.

  128. Emily*

    This is more of an idle question than an urgent one, but does anyone here have experience with getting a job in Canada, as a US citizen? I assume there are a lot of hoops to jump through, but have no real understanding of how difficult it would be or what the complicating factors are.

    (Context: I recently wrapped up a PhD in a STEM field and am job-searching. I saw a job posting for a Vancouver-based position that looked interesting, and I was curious if I even could realistically apply for it, or what would happen if the company were interested in me.)

    1. SpeedyTurtle*

      I don’t have experience in that but a lot of positions here in the US will write something like “will/won’t sponsor work visas” at the end to let you know whether they’d allow foreign nationals to apply. I imagine Canadian jobs would have something similar.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have applied for jobs in Canada (and been interviewed, though not hired) and hired Canadians to work in the US. I would suggest you apply, because you lose nothing applying. I would suspect any company hiring you would work with you on the visa issues (we did with our Canadian hires). No reason to take yourself out of the running that I can see.

    3. OtterB*

      I don’t know the details, but a colleague’s wife took an academic position in Canada beginning this academic year, so it can be done. She is a US citizen and STEM PhD. They have relocated. He is continuing to work for our organization remotely.

    4. Cormorannt*

      Check if the job you are interested is covered under the list of NAFTA visa professions. If it is, you can get a work visa pretty easily once you have a job offer. The company doesn’t really have to “sponsor” you beyond providing proof that you will be working for them, like an offer letter on company letterhead. I didn’t end up deciding to take a job in Canada, so I didn’t actually go through the visa interview process, but I was assured it was not arduous. Since the employer didn’t have to do any additional work, I didn’t have any problems getting interviews. I did note that I would be eligible for a NAFTA visa on my resume and cover letter. If it’s not a NAFTA covered profession it might be more difficult, since then I think the employer has to do more work to sponsor you. Hopefully this gives you a starting point for a Google journey. Good luck!

    5. Squeebird*

      Often if a company is not interested in dealing with visas, etc., there will be something in the job ad that says “Must be eligible to work in Canada”. I’ve always taken that to mean that you already need to have a visa/be a permanent resident or citizen. If it doesn’t say anything like that, I’d apply – you have nothing to lose but time.

  129. Very Incredibly Anon*

    I cried at work for the first time in my career today.

    Recently, a manager of another team in a completely different function decided that a task that has nothing to do with my work should be assigned to me. It was outside of my role, my skillset, and I did not have adequate resources to even complete the task. Literally anyone on his team could have done the task, but he decided that it was on me. Every attempt I made to express discomfort or ask for support was pushed back to me. I felt like I was being asked to diffuse a bomb and the only support was “just cut the wires” and a like to a Wikipedia article on bomb diffusing. This happened when my manager was out of office, and we talked about it and she agreed with me that it was out of the scope of my job and that she would support me, but I’m still upset with myself for crying.

  130. GreenTea*

    I need some help controlling my reactions to feedback delivered in a pointed tone. Example: I manage several high-level technical professionals, and I was discussing a policy change that we need to implement. The details of the policy are 100% up to us – we get to create it and define the terms, but we just need to have something in writing for our customers. I shared with my team the suggestions my boss had given me regarding this policy. A few them immediately jumped in with a lot of very valid points, but the way they delivered it was somewhat aggressive, and had a “you can’t expect us to do that” feeling. I got flustered and sort of shut down. I am very welcoming with feedback – like I said, all the points they made were valid, and were things I hadn’t considered, and I will definitely be incorporating their points into the overall policy creation. But in the moment, I just got really nervous and wasn’t sure what to say, because my lizard brain felt like they were attacking ME instead of attacking the idea. I ended by telling them we didn’t have to settle on a policy immediately (true), and we’d all work on it together (also true), and if what my boss suggested wasn’t feasible, then he was totally fine with that (also true). There have been other situations in my life when people told me my ideas weren’t good or needed work, and I was totally fine during those times – because they usually had a much gentler tone.

    I felt really embarrassed by how I responded, and I am looking for suggestions from people on how they handle people with much more…aggressive delivery styles? I tend to be non-confrontational (can you tell?), though I try my best to be direct and not sugar coat anything, but I also try to use a tone that doesn’t seem antagonistic. I am a first-time manager and I get along pretty well with my staff, but I feel like I don’t handle it well when people exhibit strong emotions, especially in the workplace, and I’d like to get better at my own reactions and not shutting down. Thanks!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Good on you for realizing the difference between attacking you and attacking the draft policy, even if only in hindsight.

      The technique I use is that when people get very heated or aggressive about this is to delegate some of the work to that person – make them set up the shared document, run down source material from the government, professional societies, etc. If they really care about it, and it will impact their day-to-day work, they’ll put some time and thought into it. If they are just being a blowhard for the sake of being a blowhard, they’ll back off.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Your answer includes what I would say – physically, the act of writing it down gives me something to do while I control my face / reactions. Sometimes I write near-nonsense, underline, star stuff – whatever it takes. If you create a spreadsheet and type in people’s feedback, highlight cells, whatever, it keeps your hands occupied.

    2. SpeedyTurtle*

      I tell myself in my head hey they’re not frustrated with you personally but with whoever decided this new change, and you just happen to be the messenger. Reframing it like that takes my personal emotions and reactions out of it, though it did take me a lot of practice before that really sunk in

  131. Dr. Tea Blender, PhD*

    At what point can we assume an ask to Allison won’t be publish and thus fair game to ask here? I sent an ask almost 3 months ago and haven’t heard anything… I know Allison can’t cover everything, so I’m not complaining, but I would like to, eventually, get some feedback on my question in the open thread, and would like to know when it’s safe to assume that I can do so.

  132. Chirpy*

    I am just at my wits’ end. My department head criticizes me no matter how I do things (both ways she tells me to work are contradictory, either way I do it will inevitably be wrong) and because I didn’t read her mind. I don’t make enough money to live on at this full time job, and will be homeless in a few months if I don’t get basically a minimum of a $2 per hour raise, because I am losing my roommate with no prospect of another one and can’t afford rent anywhere in the county. This job has killed all my friendships and volunteer opportunities, I have no references, and I’ve just spent a week out sick not getting paid because paid sick leave was canceled, which ate any buffer I had for a security deposit. My degree is useless. I hate my life.

    1. Colette*

      I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time. Is there one thing you can do to make life better?

      1. Chirpy*

        I mean, all I can think of is to update LinkedIn and see if I can get it to suggest literally anything I’m actually qualified for AND paid jobs, instead of volunteer opportunities and things that are wildly wrong (literally it keeps telling me various medical/surgeon jobs, when the closest I get to that is a long-expired lifeguard certification.)

        That, or make cookies, but cookies require buying ingredients and I’m just freaking out about money right now.

    2. Slimer*

      Oh, so much sympathy and commiseration on the “no winning” boss.

      It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot right now, and you don’t need to do that alone. If your company has an EAP, call them and ask for help with the housing issue. They should be able to connect you with local resources. Don’t feel badly about using them — they are a resource provided by the company and you have earned their time/expertise. If you don’t have an EAP, then call 211 or your local council/representative/whatever. Don’t worry about trying to find the right person — just call someone and tell them you’re a resident of (wherever) and you need assistance with housing expenses. They will point you to the place with resources.

      For the job, be patient and keep your eyes open. Start following companies that interest you on LinkedIn or other social media and see what kind of jobs they are offering. You deserve a great job and you’ll find it!

      1. Chirpy*

        I work retail, and am single with no kids. Nobody’s going to give me any help. There’s a brand new “affordable workforce housing” building that just opened in my neighborhood, and while the income is capped at a good $20,000+ more than I make, the rent for an efficiency is still *more than my current 2-bedroom* costs, literally twice what I could afford on my own right now. Basically, it doesn’t matter how many bedrooms it has, around here everything costs at least $900-1100/month. Even at my current half of the rent being $500, I can barely survive as is.

        I’ve been trying (admittedly on and off) for 10 years to find a better job. Before that I worked in a non-profit sector that has very, very few paid jobs even before Covid shut down a lot of it, and my actual major is so general as to be kind of “vaguely science”. I moved to a bigger city a few years ago because my hometown literally had no jobs in either field. I seriously don’t know where to even look.

        1. Cheezmouser*

          For the housing thing: are you able to rent a room in a house instead of renting your own apartment? That’s what my boyfriend did, and it was so much cheaper. It does mean having to share the kitchen and possibly a bathroom with the other people in the house, and you don’t really want to just hang out in their living room so you end up spending most of your time in your room, but the trade off is cheaper rent in a nicer neighborhood than you could afford renting your own place. We live in an expensive metro area and rent for a studio apartment was $1100-$1500 while renting a room was $400-$800 at the time. (Note: this was 15 years ago when we were young and unmarried, no kids)

          1. Chirpy*

            The ones I’ve seen are still like $750, and I absolutely cannot handle living with a house of strangers who are college students, which is what’s available. I’ve never handled random roommates well and that would stress me out beyond belief. And still not even in my current price range. The only things around here for $500 are age-restricted for seniors.

    3. Cheezmouser*

      It sounds like you’re stuck in a job that is low pay, bad boss, stingy benefits, no network or references, and little room for advancement or lateral jump. Maybe it’s time to get out. Is there anything you can do to make your resume more attractive? Sometimes libraries have free online courses on things like accounting, Microsoft Office skills, marketing, etc. You just need a free library card.

      What jobs ARE available in your area? See if there’s a company or field you want to aim for and try building yourself up in that direction.

      I recently hired someone into an entry level position on my team who came from the restaurant service industry. She had a similar story: 6 years in same low pay job (waitress), abusive boss, limited benefits, no advancement. She was interested in marketing so she volunteered to manage the restaurant social media accounts and email newsletter. This allowed her to put some marketing experience on her resume. She was also the lead server in charge of training new servers, so she had leadership and staff training experience. And she had experience dealing with difficult or demanding personalities, both from customers and her boss. My field is completely different but I liked this combination so I took a chance and hired her despite her lack of formal work experience in our field. She’s very happy now with higher pay, better benefits, set work schedule, and room for advancement. Moral of the story: pick a field or company that can offer you the type of career you want and then grab whatever experience or learning you can to get your foot in the door.

      1. Chirpy*

        It’s not “time to get out”, it’s far past time to get out, but I don’t have anywhere to go or a way to get there.

        I don’t have time to volunteer, it’s why I have no contacts! My job actually required me to quit one of my hobbies, and has greatly hampered any other volunteer opportunities I try to do! I don’t have money or time to take even free classes because of my crappy job schedule! Accounting is hiring everywhere sure, but it would be my personal hell! I will be homeless in three months if I can’t get a better job in time to convince a landlord to rent to me before then! I don’t know what career I want, which is why I’ve been stuck in retail for eight years because the one I had before that AND the one I trained for both are not hiring! This is why I’m freaking out, I HAVE THREE MONTHS UNTIL I’M HOMELESS UNLESS I GET A BETTER JOB IN TWO MONTHS AND WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO HIRE ME????? A library card isn’t going to cut it. And all classes, even if they happened to be in the *one hour* I could maybe get to the open library after work, are probably canceled due to the current pandemic spike.

        I’m a retail associate. I manage no one. I am in charge of nothing. I can’t even email anyone from corporate to ask questions even to help customers. I am terrible at handling difficult people and the pandemic has eroded any ability I did have because everyone treats retail workers even more like crap than usual. People think retail workers *don’t deserve to live*, let alone get paid fairly, so who’s going to hire me? I last worked in an office 13 years ago, and that job was cut (so they could get two accountants instead). All the “good” skills I have are from jobs so long ago most people would leave them off resumes. And I sure am not going to have great interview skills when I’m freaking out about where I’m going to live. I can’t even do phone interviews during the day because I can’t answer my personal phone at work.

        I just don’t know how I’m going to find anyone who will take a chance on me when nobody has up until this point. Even managers who liked me and knew me wouldn’t take a chance on letting me do anything else.

      2. Chirpy*

        I mean, I’m so out of options I’m asking a comment section for help because I don’t have anywhere else to ask.

  133. Gnome*

    How long do I need to stay…?

    I was hired as a level 2 Teapot Engineer and spent about 3 years in my company working for the Llama Teapot Group. During that time I was promoted to a level 3 then level 4 Teapot Engineer. The last year I was also assistant manager of the Metro Zoo Llama Teapot contract… Which I was ok at, but there were some organizational issues in that group so I transferred to the Zebra Teapot Group where I’m working as a level 4 Teapot Engineer again. However, the work is… Not so interesting.

    Overall, it was there years in one group – with management responsibilities for about a year… Then a new group. How do I best put this on my resume and, if it keeps being uninteresting, how long do you think I need to stay for it to not look weird? The work is very different from what I was doing before, but still fits in Teapot Engineer. If it weren’t for the management stint, I could just lump it all together under Teapot Engineer… Maybe I leave the management part off? Thoughts?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Wait, these are all at the same company right? If you’re worried about appearing to job hop, I don’t think jobs at the same company count. I list jobs like this:

      Company A
      Manager (years)

      Company B
      Manager (years)
      Senior Manager (years)

      Company C
      Director

  134. Calibrations*

    I’m (hopefully) going to be interviewing for a new position soon. How do i word that my reason for leaving current company is that there’s no room for me to advance in my career?

    Current job and leadership is actively holding me back on my professional development while sending my colleagues on trainings I’ve expressed interest in. They’re getting promoted and I’ve been in the same position since i started five years ago, even though I’ve been here longer and have more experience.

    2. OtterB*

      You want an opportunity to grow in direction X, where X is something the position you’re interviewing for would allow.

  135. Loves libraries*

    I was watching a US TV show this week where a policeman made a mistake at work and after investigation the outcome was his was docked 10 days pay. Is that a actual thing in the US? As an Aussie I would say that fining you your pay seems like a very strange work “consequence”. Here, people would get demoted possibly, or put on some kind of probation/improvement plan or even fired but fines seem very strange.

      2. Anonymous Luddite*

        Exactly this.

        To make it more confusing, depending on the local agreements and the situation, an officer could be put on a ten day (unpaid) suspension but then use ten day’s vacation so that it wouldn’t be unpaid.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      This would be very illegal in the US as far as I know. I guess state laws can vary, so potentially there is a some state where this is thing, but I think it’s more likely that the TV writers just thought it sounded good.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Eh, it’s a TV show. TV writers often don’t really know anything outside of their own profession, and they rely on old tropes.

      It used to be a thing in manufacturing (like in the 40s, 50s, and 60s) that you could get docked $0.25 an hour for a few days, that kind of thing. 10 days without pay is like a 4% paycut for the year.

  136. Comrade*

    I recently received an award at work, and I got a lot of congratulatory emails from people, including one from the CEO. Am I supposed to respond to each of these emails to be polite? Or is it ok to just… leave them alone?

      1. 867-5309*

        I should note that I would not expect one if I just wrote someone “congratulations!” but I generally do not like emails.

        (I find the “thank you” responses when I send someone what they’ve asked, or sending a calendar invite and then sending an email that says, “I scheduled the meeting for this date and time,” SUPER annoying.) However, plenty of people don’t so it would not hurt to reply to each person.

    2. Pascall*

      I’d say maybe send a thank you to the CEO or anyone else who is in a sort of managerial/above-you position just for some good karma if you’d like. But anyone that’s on a peer level doesn’t need a personalized thank you or anything, unless you’re particularly appreciative of them for doing something specific to help you obtain that award. Then you can mention that to them individually.

    3. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Yes, just respond. Each response will take you 10 seconds, and what could the downside possibly be?

  137. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    In college, I studied to become an elementary school teacher, and I loved working at camps/outdoor schools/extra-curricular learning centers. My career path since then has gone in a different direction, and I’m currently working in a low level admin/operations job for a research lab, but I do still keep tabs on some of the previous educational places where I worked/volunteered just out of curiosity.

    Today, one of them posted a full-time job for an outdoor educator (a position I would have adored!) for….wait for it….16.50 PER HOUR. That’s just over HALF of what I make now, and I guarantee that I would be working twice as hard as an outdoor educator than I am in my current job!

    I just feel so much despair about the state of the education field in general, and I’m sad for all of my friends and colleagues who are so passionate about wanting to make an impact through education but who, like me, will never work in the industry because of the low pay.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I get it, a good friend of mine loves his job and actually makes decent money (private school), but the stress, demands, insane amount of after-hours work, non-existent PTO, and dealing with entitled parents are killing him and he’s actively looking to get out. The fact that his administration is now also hiding covid outbreaks from him (he only finds this information out from his students since they have to be notified, but apparently staff do not???) is just making an awful situation worse.

      Another friend really wanted to be a teacher, but the fact that she would have to earn a masters degree only to make less than half of her current salary sadly turned her away after years of dreaming about making the switch.

      I have other teacher friends who desperately want to do right by their kids but are getting hamstrung by their administrations. A good friend recently got let go (technically her contract wasn’t renewed) because she was trying to get the awful racism in the school addressed, and it was easier to get rid of her than try and fix anything.

      It just sucks. I wish we treated our teachers like the heroes everyone claimed they believed them to be in March 2020.

    3. Gnome*

      The extra sad downside is that, while there are lots of really good teachers, this also leads to an increase in bad ones in the hardest to fill positions (good ones have other opportunities).

  138. Llama Wrangler*

    For people who have learned Tableau, how easy did you find it to learn? (and what’s your background in similar platforms?)

    I would say I’m moderately proficient in Excel and Stata, and have a strong understanding of the principles of good design, but have very little concrete experience in data viz. In the running for a job where a large component would be using tableau – I’ve never used it.

    1. PX*

      Oof. I personally tried learning PowerBI (similar vein, but maybe Tableau has a slightly easier user interface) and I found it really hard. Mainly because it felt similar enough to Excel that I wanted to just do what I would normally do in Excel, but different enough that it would never work how I expected it to. Caveat here is I’m the kind of person who learns best with some guidance and lots of dedicated time to use a new tool – neither of which applied in my case.

      I’d start playing with it now to get a feel for it (you can likely get a free version/trial for a while) and also think/ask about things like how much of this new job involve handling the data pipeline, cleaning the data, formatting, managing it etc. – because that’s a very different beast than just making pretty dashboards. I feel like the actual design part is easy because there are lots of templates inbuilt or available online to refer to while you get started.

  139. Academics Anonymous*

    People who left academia: how did you tie up all the loose threads?

    I’m so burned out, I think I need a clean break, even if it’s temporary. The problem is all those half-finished papers and projects, especially the ones with students. I feel like finishing everything would take months and I’m at the end of my rope. I’m not officially their supervisor but in practice… Pretty much, and they depend on me. I feel trapped, help?

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Just cut ties. Refer your students to others in your department that can help them out. Be real with them about why you’re leaving. You probably have some students that have dreams about working in academia themselves. They should understand the reality of it. IF you can stand it: Give your personal email address to your star students. Let them know you’re available for letters of recommendation and general career advice.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      *As* a student, if a faculty member I was working on a project with left mid-project, these are things that would be helpful to me:
      1. Referring me to another faculty member to turn to for advice/research help/etc. (and writing the introduction email so that I wouldn’t have to cold email someone I don’t know well).
      2. Depending on the stage at which you are abandoning the project(s), saying something along the lines of – “No pressure on you to finish these projects, but if you would like to take the initiative to do so, you can be first author” (or something to similarly ‘sweeten the deal,’ or whatever your field’s preferred authorship order is), and clearly spelling out the conditions for publication etc. (Should they email you a draft of the final paper before submitting it? Etc.)
      3. Seconding Monkey Fracas Jr.’s suggestion to pre-emptively agree to be a reference/write letters for your star students (honestly even your ‘average’ students) and giving them a way to contact you.

  140. Handheld Analog Calculator*

    I’ve got a question for freelancers…

    I recently departed a grant-writing job following a long-distance move. I’m looking to try freelance grant writing for (hopefully similar) organizations for the next little while, and am wondering about the first step to networking with potential clients. Do I send an email to the executive director with a resume and an elevator pitch? Do I try a softer sell (“hello, I write grants, let me know if you need help with that, I’d be happy to send my resume along”), or maybe ask for an informational interview? How does the appropriate protocol change if I have a contact at the org?

    Any tips would be much appreciated! I know the work well but, as you can probably tell, I have never done this contractually…

    1. Pascall*

      As someone who has done a little bit of freelance grant writing, I usually determine if the organization HAS a grant writer or development person on staff by checking their websites. The larger they are, the more likely it is that they already have dedicated staff members to that. Smaller orgs and orgs run by only a few people will be more open to having assistance.

      Emailing either the executive director or the head of development/marketing (depending on how the org is structured) would be the first step. I wouldn’t jump to sending your credentials, but rather asking, first and foremost, if the organization is currently applying for grants and whether or not it’s in their plans to do so. Explain that you’re looking to work with organizations to assist them in applying for grants to benefit their mission, if that’s something that they may have a budget for. Not every organization will, obviously, so you want to check first.

      Some will try to ask if you’re interested in volunteering- you may need to determine kind language to turn them down if you’re looking to make an income off of it. If you do receive a response from the contact that says they are interested, that’d be when you share your resume (make sure it has amounts that you’ve brought in and what types of orgs you’ve assisted) and offer to discuss over phone call/video call, what-have-you. Then go from there to discuss their mission, their funding needs, how many grants they’d be interested in applying for each year, etc.

      I don’t think the protocol changes much if you have a contact at the org aside from using them to connect you to the appropriate person at the org who will know more about their budget or grant writing needs, if it’s not them.

      I don’t think it’s a one-size-fits-all approach; you’ll have to adjust depending on the organization and what you’re willing to do for them (research on prospects, reaching out to funders via cold calling, constructing grant reports or data reporting, or are you JUST interested in actually writing the thing once all of that is figured out?) and what their expectations and needs are. Definitely prepare before reaching out though- figure out the org’s mission so that you have at least some idea of where funding may come from, even if you don’t have specific prospects in mind yet. (Mostly foundations? Mostly corporate funders or individual family donor-advised-funds?) Stuff like that.

      Once you’re past the stage where you confirm that the org is willing to work with you, the next step is to develop an airtight contract, establish the rate (hourly or fixed? definitely do NOT recommend getting paid depending on how many awards are received), discuss communication preferences, check-in times, etc. That’s really the hardest part.

      Hope that helps! I also do donor database administration for some orgs, so I had to come up with a contract this past year and it was pretty sticky trying to determine the right language to make sure I wasn’t taken advantage of and that the organization is getting what they paid for.

    2. New IRS System Freaks Me Out*

      So this may not help you but I do something adjacent to this and I got into it by working with folks I had already worked with, so I was a known entity, and I didn’t jump to grant writing right away, I actually started working on grants management, particularly grant reporting. A lot of folks in my sector had grants they needed help closing out, particularly summarizing results. If that is successful, you could propose writing or researching grants for them in future, particularly if you identify specific grants that speak to the project you helped them close out.

  141. Wendy*

    I had this exchange with a customer at the fuel center I work at, and I could use some advice on what is the best way to handle it since the exchange left me confused.

    Some background information:

    The fuel center I work at is owned by a *major grocery store chain*
    You earn fuel points when you shop at the grocery store chain which can be used towards how much you pay for gas at the pump

    The exchange happened today
    There was an issue with the fuel pumps pumping gas slowly, and the fuel center lead had to put in a work order for them. His thought was that the filters need to be changed at all the fuel pumps

    The customer came to the window and told me the following…

    I pumped gas at pump 6
    I was able to use 10 cents off every gallon of gas since I earned 100 fuel points
    I was able to pump gas until the pump shut off, but my tank was not full
    So, I paid for gas again, but I was not able to use 100 fuel points; I only got 3 cents off
    I was able to pump gas again, but then the pump shut off after a couple of minutes.
    I tried to pay for gas again, but the pump would not let me

    What would your response to the customer have been?

    I did not know what she wanted me to do

      1. beanie*

        Well obviously. But it sounds like Wendy didn’t have a way to make that happen.

        Wendy I’m guessing it’s more complicated than just apologizing and saying there’s nothing you can do, since you feel guilty that it’s the company’s fault that it kept shutting off. But realistically, it seems like all you can do is apologize and say the company is working to fix that pump. I don’t suppose you have other things you can offer customers when issues come up? Future discount or something? Sorry I don’t have better options!

    2. RagingADHD*

      She’s complaining about 1) her transaction being overly complicated by getting shut off several times, and 2) that she didn’t get the full discount on her whole purchase.

      My response would be, “I’m sorry, we are having issues with the pumps and we have a work order in. Here is the number you should call about your points balance. I’m afraid I don’t have any control over that from here.”

    3. Really*

      Send them to the service desk inside the grocery store. That’s what I did a few years ago when the pump didn’t register right.

    4. Katie*

      My response when I don’t understand what someone wants me to do is “What would you like me to do?” (in a open, curious way, not aggressively). Sometimes they’ll tell you! Then you can let them know if you can or can’t do what they want, but at least you know what they’d like. Maybe this customer wanted you to add a discount, or to explain why the pump stopped working, or to acknowledge the hassle, or something entirely different.

  142. anonAndOnAndOn*

    I interviewed for a new job recently, and it went well, but I won’t know if I’ll get the job for a while. I’m working on sending a follow-up thank you e-mail. The new job may at times compete somewhat with my old job. For the old job, I signed a non-disclosure agreement. I’ve just re-read the agreement, but as a non-lawyer, I’m feeling a little confused.

    For a software developer (which I am), what are the important things about an NDA? I think I should notify my prospective employer about this (I didn’t think about bringing it up in the interview).

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      There’s a difference between an NDA and a non-compete. Your prospective employer will ask you about it in the course of the hiring process. They assume you have one, everyone does. If you have a portfolio, just password-protect everything and you’ll be fine.

    2. beanie*

      Definitely big difference between an NDA and a non-compete clause. If non-compete, is there someone outside of your company with knowledge of non-competes you could have review it to get their take? They vary so much and software devs are known for having some pretty restrictive ones.

      For an NDA, it’s most likely just not taking any confidential data or information covered by the NDA with you that is owned by your old job and their clients. Obvious stuff is account information, confidential sales data, etc. More complicated stuff is code you’ve developed for your job that you could conceivably use in your new job.

  143. Rey*

    I officially got a job offer this morning! Long version: last year, I applied for a promotion in the same office where I’ve worked for ten years. I used all of Alison’s advice to write up my resume and cover letter and prepare for the interview. I felt really prepared, but they ultimately selected an external candidate for the role. I was so disappointed that my company didn’t value me enough to help me grow, and now that I had all of my materials ready, I started my job search. Thank you to everyone here who answered my questions in the open threads and provided so much encouragement throughout my job search! HR called this morning with the official offer and I am so excited about my new company. I’ll give my boss my two weeks notice on Monday, have one week break between the jobs, and then start at the new job after that. When I first applied for the promotion, I thought it was perfect and would give me everything I wanted personally and professionally. But being passed over motivated me to apply outside and I found so many companies with better benefits packages and better work-life balance, compared to the very old-school mindset of the company I have been working for. The upheaval of the pandemic and some changes in my personal life have definitely made me reconsider my priorities, and I’m excited for my future with this job where I will have more time outside of work to spend with my two year old daughter, my biggest love and highest priority.

  144. Anon this time*

    I am PISSED. I took an internal promotion that started this month, and was given a 50% pay rise. I check my bank balance, and my DD matches to the penny what I got under my old title. My kitchen napkin math has me being shorted about $700.

    Mine was the most egregious, but my boss’s paycheck got botched, and so did at least one of my subordinates.

    I reach out to Payroll, they direct me to the “HR” person. That person 1) is out of the office, and 2) could not give two shits about the fact that we’ve had a vacancy for four months and won’t give any updates on the hiring process.

    My employer is a state gov’t agency making headlines for all the wrong reasons, and I have half a mind to contact a lawyer if I don’t hear back by Monday.

    1. Schmitt*

      It sounds like a mistake, not something done on purpose “at” you. What do you hope to accomplish by being pissed?

    2. JSC*

      This seems like a really extreme response to what sounds like a minor glitch that will get sorted out soon and is not just affecting you! Are you OK? Is there something else bothering you, or do you normally react this intensely to minor things?

      1. Anon this time*

        The issues with my pay, I wouldn’t call a glitch. My payroll info would have changed in several ways (base rate, no union dues deduction, increase in retirement contribution, etc), but my stub was the exact same as my last pay period working under my old title. And because our systems are arcane, all of of the data is entered by people.

        I think it comes across as yet another example of people either at HQ or elsewhere thinking of the units/people in my building as punching bags, and I am sick and tired of it. We are understaffed (and have been for 3+ years), overworked (with politically connected people outside the unit trying to strong-arm more work onto our plates), and zero political capital due to turnover within and without the unit.

        1. Katie*

          It sucks for sure, and also sounds like Payroll never got your new information, if your stub is exactly the same when your compensation changed in three ways. Do you have anything written about new classification and new wage, and the date they were supposed to start? Maybe you could send that to payroll. You could also ask for retroactive pay. In a way it helps you that your boss was affected, because they have an incentive to get this fixed, and have more capital than you to get it fixed, probably. Good luck!

          2. Anon this time*

            I reached out to Payroll first indicating the issue, they’re the ones who directed me to the HR person.

            I’ve been in the same agency the entire time; the HR person is the same person who handles interviewing/promotions.

            Given how that imbecile flat-out dismissed as unimportant my boss’s request for an update regarding a four-months-vacant position within my unit, botched another employee’s promotion earlier this month, and took almost a year to process my predecessor’s new hire paperwork, I have zero respect for her.

        2. pancakes*

          It seems quite unlikely that your payroll info was intentionally entered wrong, though. Particularly if your employer is understaffed and relies on manual data entry. Human error is quite likely in those circumstances; intentional malfeasance isn’t, and is a problem of a different magnitude. Your team not having much political capital is a separate problem, but capital shouldn’t be required to get your payroll issues sorted out.

  145. Disgruntled newbie*

    My company downsized the office space from 2 floors to 1 floors during the pandemic and went ‘hot desking’ style. It wasn’t so much an issue until recently, when more people are returning to the office 50 to 100% of the time, depending on work needs.
    The way they implemented ‘hot desking’ is nothing like what I’ve read online.
    The CEO has his office, the HODs have their permanent desks by the window – I pretty much accepted this.
    Each department is still allocated X number of desks – corporate functions get more desks than the sales departments since the sales people go out a lot – so the hot desking only takes place within your allocated function.
    Certain ranking grade and above get permanent desks, leaving the rest of the staff to rotate.
    To be honest I’m in a corporate function so my team has enough desks and the rest of us do not have to fight for desks and as creatures of habits, we tend to end up at the same desks. But we have to keep our stuff in the lockers because technically we are ‘hot desking’.
    But this ‘hot desking’ implementation just screams weird to me and nothing like what I’ve read online. I don’t want to say anything because I’m probably going to sound petty that I didn’t get a permanent desk. I’m pretty new and when I sound out the team, their responses are along the line of ‘that’s how they are like’. I think the culture fit is not there and this is just one of the reasons that makes me feel tempted to leave this micromanaging and traditional mindset of a company :(

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Hot desking sucks. I hate this concept with the heat of 1000 suns. Basically it just means executives and directors get window offices around the perimeter and everyone gets dumped in the fishbowl.

      THEN when you stake out a relatively quiet spot, the managers get pissy about why you’re not sitting with your department. Which of course wasn’t the point of hot desking to begin with!!!!

  146. Cimorene*

    Might be too late to ask today, but, here goes. I’m in that lovely little catch 22 period where I’m waiting for confirmation that I do really truly have a new job so I can turn in my resignation. Getting HR at the new place to update me has been hard so I’m ending the week with no news of yes or no. But the contingent offer letter (via docusign) did register as signed and completed yesterday? To any HR readers, does that usually mean the job offer is official or is it usually followed by another actual official offer letter? The original letter has salary, first day details, and a start date on it (2 weeks from Monday!!). Complicating all this is that this new job requires a move but I can’t apply to the housing I’ve found till I for sure have that job. Too much stresssssss.

    1. Cimorene*

      This is my first official step into typical office jobs and that whole routine is totally new to me. All the jobs I’ve done so far are the type that hire on the spot or overseas jobs with a much different (and far longer) hiring process. Hence my rising level of stress.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      I would definitely wait to be sure that the contingent offer turns into a formal offer (contingent on what, a background check? References?), but I do think you have grounds to tell the new job that you need an official offer before giving notice at the old job. Giving a 2 week notice period is customary but not a requirement, so I do think it’s probably fine to give notice on, say, Tuesday and be a day short of two weeks if need be. You could also potentially negotiate a later start date with the new job if they’re dragging their feet on a formal offer, but know that you do risk some capital there. If HR isn’t being responsive, what about your future manager or the hiring manager? Could they nudge things along?

      Re housing: I don’t know what area you’re in, but you could always start the application process (using the details from the contingent offer letter as proof of salary) while you wait to hear from the new job and just wait to sign anything until you’re sure (you run the risk of someone else nabbing the apartment before you do, but it will also let you move quickly when the formal offer comes through). Alternatively, you could look into an airBnB or extended stay hotel for the first few weeks and then apply for housing once you’ve relocated; this is possibly more expensive but also cancelable if things fall through.

      Good luck! Hopefully a formal offer comes through!

      1. Cimorene*

        That is the rub. I did flat out tell them I wasn’t putting in my resignation till they confirmed the offer (it’s contingent on passing a drug test only as the background/reference check was done before the offer). I did already push back the starting date by one week due to that (or else I’d be starting in one week!). I just wish they would communicate more with me I guess. This is a government job so maybe that’s why they are slow? I don’t have the contact information for the actual hiring manager only HR…

        I’ve decided to go ahead and at least apply to one of the housing options. I hate that that means paying an application fee without having confirmation in hand, but hopefully I won’t lose the gamble. If housing doesn’t work as planned, I can commute from my current city for a week or two if needed. It would be a 1 1/2 hr commute so it’s doable, though nasty.

        Thanks! I’m hoping I’ll find a nice stress relieving email in my inbox on Monday. Until then, destressing by packing…

  147. taxConcerns*

    Is it OK to talk about taxes in general on the Friday work thread? The tax company who does my taxes has created a separate company in a different country. This seems odd to me. Where I live, there are state and federal taxes.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So what’s your concern? Lots of professional services companies are international – lawyers, accountants, architects, etc. They may just incorporate elsewhere for a tax break, but their local subsidiaries are the ones still doing the work. And of course it’s totally reasonable that there’s an accountant in Canada who is perfectly well versed in German tax law and can do the work competently. Just like there are radiologists in South Africa who can interpret an X-ray that was taken in the US.

      1. taxConcerns*

        Wouldn’t an X-ray be the same in the US and South Africa?

        Taxes in different countries are likely to be completely different. I don’t know why it makes me concerned, I guess just because it seems surprising. Why would a Canadian accountant learn German tax law?

        1. Francesca*

          Because they want to be able to help international clients, or have existing clients who are paying taxes in more than one country? Because they are interested in learning new skills and developing their practice? Because they are considering moving to another country in future and are getting prepared? Or just because rhey want to?

          It seems like a positive thing to me. What is it that’s worrying you about it?

        2. pancakes*

          I’m not following as to why you seem to think you’ll be assigned to a new tax preparer abroad rather than remain assigned to one in your own country.

  148. soAnon*

    I’m trying to work on a “thank you” letter after an interview. I’ve been reading the suggestions on this blog, and I still feel so stuck!

    1. Cimorene*

      You aren’t alone! I’m terrible at them. I think the last one was the most successful because it was more about a piece of necessary information that I didn’t cover in the interview vs trying to continue conversations from the interview itself. Good luck!

    2. SG*

      Can you pick out something your interviewer(s) said about the position or the company culture that made you even more enthusiastic about the position, or that made you feel even more so that the role would be a good fit?

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      I just try to make my thank-you notes as genuine as possible, the way I would with any thank-you note. I know it’s not exactly following Allison’s advice, but I just sit down and ask myself–what do I truly want to thank this person for? Is it sharing a candid reflection on company culture? Is it asking really thoughtful questions and listening to the answers? Is it running a fair and transparent interview process? If the interviewer mentioned anything I was unfamiliar with, I mention that I followed up with research on that topic afterward.

      Honestly, I try to make the thank-you note less about continuing to pitch myself, and more about recognizing that the interviewer is a human being who took time out of their day to talk with me. I find that makes it a lot easier to write.

  149. Frida*

    We’re working on introducing a hybrid working policy when we eventually return to office and I’m looking for a common sense check on one point. We’re teapot builders with a small amount of admin and while most of the time attendance onsite is required to build the teapots, there’s a bit of paperwork that goes with that that could be done from home. It is pretty minimal in comparison to needing to be in to build the actual teapots but it does exist. To meet various requirements for safety and production runs we’re hoping that in a hybrid situation people would fix their WFH day(s), eg. every Wednesday etc. My question is for those scheduled WFH days that fall on a public holiday (so a paid shutdown day) should a replacement WFH day be scheduled that week? The teapot production element of the job would reduce a little and the usual practice to now is that admin would be fit around your production hours here and there if there’s a public holiday in a given week. Trying to balance what’s achievable with what’s reasonable. I’m not in the US if that has any impact on the guidance.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      In the US, it seems many public holidays take place on Monday. So maybe that’s not a good WFH day. For other holidays, just have people shift the day that week.

      My work used to not allow your one WFH day to be Monday or Friday. Ideally, if you don’t need to have anyone in the office Friday, don’t do that.

  150. Thoreauvian*

    I started a new job last year. I’ve worked primarily freelance for many years, so I’m not used to having a regular job. The job is low-stress, good coworkers, etc. The pay is much less than I feel I deserve, given my qualifications, but I was desperate.

    I’m sort of my own department. People contact me, send me work, I do it, and they thank me. When they aren’t sending me work, I’m doing a huge, never-ending project. I mean, this project really will never end. This also means that I won’t lack for work, which is fine.

    However, there’s one person who seems to think that she’s my supervisor (and she isn’t). Every now and then, she’ll tell me that Job X needs to be done in a different way, or that Job Y was incomplete. Something about her just gets my back up, and I don’t know why. I’ve only met her in person once (we’re all working from home now, and have been for several months). At that meeting, things were fine. She seemed very nice, and we had a pleasant conversation.

    She’s not the only one to let me know when something needs to be done differently, but for some reason, as I said above, she rubs me the wrong way. Yesterday, she sent me a series of messages telling me that this, that, and the other thing needed to be done differently. I did what I always do – I do my best to see it from her point of view, and tell myself that by doing what she’s doing, she’s actually helping me. I try to frame it that way: she’s helping me.

    But she wants me to do things that simply aren’t my job. I’ve told her, several times, that this isn’t my job, though I don’t use those words. I point out that the things she wants me to do are outside my purview, there are other people in the company who do exactly that kind of work, etc. But she wants me to do the work that is clearly done by other people, though I have told her time and again that I don’t know how to do it, and that I could easily screw things up by trying to do work for which I am, obviously, not trained.

    I’m not sure how to explain it. Let’s say that I worked on an assembly line, and that I had the tools to insert a part in a piece of machinery. And then a coworker – not a supervisor – started getting on my butt about picking up other tools and inserting different pieces in the machinery, even though I had no idea where the pieces went, which way they went in, or what tools to use to put them there. That’s essentially what she’s telling me to do.

    And, again, she’s not my supervisor.

    I’m very careful about what I write in the messages, because I don’t want to have a written record of anything that could be taken in the wrong way. I’ve been as clear as I know how to be that THIS IS NOT MY JOB. Yesterday, she mentioned that “You’re a [insert job title here].” I agreed with her that, yes, that’s what I do. She then sent me a message that is clearly, unmistakably, snotty.

    I didn’t respond, and then she backpedaled and sent all kinds of “helpful” suggestions on doing the work that I’m not trained to do, and am not (apart from her) expected to do.

    So I’m going to contact my supervisor on Monday and talk to him about it. How do you suggest I broach the topic? He’s a very busy guy, and I hate to disturb him, but I’m tired of her hounding me about this. Plus, the longer I let it go, the more complicated things are likely to be. How do I stop her in her tracks? I need to contact my supervisor before she gets the idea to tell him that I should do this work. Not only do I not want to do it, but the chances of things getting thoroughly screwed up if I do it are too high.

    1. 653-CXK*

      This made my blood boil. I am so sorry you have to deal with this awful busybody.

      Tell your supervisor about this tout suite. If you have weekly one-on-one meetings with him, make this the leading topic. “X is giving me information about things that are not applicable this project and is being aggressive about it…what should I do?” If your supervisor thinks she’s undermining the project, he will step in and defend you no matter how busy he is. Forward all her emails to him, and document each and every interaction and conversation with her.

      Above all, stand up to her! You’ve already told her that X, Y and Z is not your job, and her response was to throw a tantrum email. If she can’t stop with the needling and the harassment, confront her. “I’ve told you multiple times that X is not my job, and your suggestions on how to do my project are not helpful. I want you to stop giving me information that does not apply to my job – can you do that?”

      If that doesn’t work, you may need to involve HR.

      1. Thoreauvian*

        The job I have didn’t exist before I was hired, so it’s new for all of us. Nobody in the company had a go-to person for the work I do until last year. The people who were doing the work I now do didn’t want to do it, because they had more than enough to do, and didn’t want to be interrupted. So I’m taking a load off several people.

        Given this fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Coworker really does think that it’s part of her job to tell me how to do mine. I can’t deny that she knows a certain procedure inside and out. Often, when she tells me how something is done, I know that she’s telling me because she knows I wasn’t aware of it (or else I wouldn’t have done it that way).

        When I started the job, it was something like this: “Okay, this is how you operate the system, here is where you find this, there is where you find that. See you later.” Since I’m used to working alone, I thought that they needed me to make changes that didn’t need to be made. I’ve made some mistakes in my work simply because nobody told me how not to do things – which, in my opinion, is just as important to know as how things should be done. Since Coworker is (in a manner of speaking) downstream from me, she sees when I’ve done something that doesn’t work with they way the business operates As I said in my previous post, she’s not the only one who does it. However, she does it the most, by far.

        I don’t have a job description. Nobody said, “Your job is to do this, that, and the other thing,” when I started. The learning curve is a bit steep, as a result. Since I don’t have a job description, I’m concerned that Coworker might try to push someone to get me to do the work that I’m not trained to do. Not only am I not trained for it, it would – this is not an exaggeration – take me years to be trained in it to an effect degree. And they already have people who do this work, so she doesn’t need me to do it; I think she just wants to dump all the work on me that she doesn’t want to do.

        I’ll have to talk to my supervisor tomorrow. Wish me luck!

  151. Withholding my name today.*

    So I encouraged someone I’m friendly with (who is also a former direct report at another job) to interview for an opening I have. She did great, and will hit the second round of interviews. But yesterday, I interviewed another candidate who will, frankly, blow her out of the water. It’s possible, of course, that she may not impress on the second around when she meets with other folks in the department, but it’s also very possible she’ll be the best choice.

    Any tips on giving a rejection to someone when you’re friendly to them? I’m fine at writing standard rejections, but not sure if I should say something to her on email/FB (or chat her on Zoom) after the official rejection, or if I should add anything to the rejection.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      If I’m rejecting someone I’m friendly with, I try to make the official rejection as kind and personal as possible–I compliment some strong qualities they displayed, but also state something the final candidate had that they did not that will help them understand the decision wasn’t personal. For example, I’ve said something like, “We really appreciated the passion you have for Llama Grooming and the strong background you brought in Llama Research, but we decided that a candidate who has more experience in grooming Spotted Llamas would be the best possible fit for this position.” You could also say something like, “You were a great fit for the position as written, but other candidates applied whose qualifications far exceeded the job description.”

  152. Alexis Rosay*

    I’m very late to this thread, so not sure if anyone will see this. Low-stakes question though.

    I’m in the midst of making a career change between two very disparate fields–similar to going from social work to electrical engineering. I am in the midst of wrapping up some freelance/side projects from my first career. I’ve been asked to speak on a panel related to my first career, which would be helpful in promoting a project I completed that I’m still very proud of. However, it feels strange to introduce myself as (for example) “Alexis, electrical engineering student” on a (for example) social work panel. I would understand if people felt resentful or odd about the fact that I’ve left the profession for something totally different, and I’m not sure if that might undermine the project I’m trying to promote. Any thoughts on how to handle this?

    1. Tali*

      Depending on how much room you have, could you add “former social worker” to your title or introduction? That way it is clear why you are there.

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