open thread

by Alison Green on March 7, 2014

Olive LucyIt’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

{ 1,332 comments }

{ 1,332 comments… read them below }

    1. Julie*

      Are the kitties playing or scuffling in the photo? It took our dog a few months before he decided that the new puppy was OK (now he loves him), but I don’t really know how cats are with newcomers. I hope they get along!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Cuddling, a little. Olive really wants to cuddle, but then after a few minutes she can’t resist launching an attack, which infuriates Lucy and ends the cuddling.

      2. Jen RO*

        Mine (5 months old and 3 years old) like to fight. Or, rather, the older one wants to be left alone, while the younger one wants to play. It ends with cats running around the house at full speed. It’s fun!

        1. Lisa*

          Mine too, only the older one will at one point put the little one in a head lock to groom her. The little one sometimes puts her head near her paws so she will do it and just lays there until her ears and nose are licked and her eyes glaze over in kitten cuteness.

          1. Jen RO*

            Mine do the same! Except the little one hates being groomed by the big one, so this also degenerates in cats running at top speed.

    2. Anon E Mouse*

      Or for those of us who work nights!

      I just want to say that I *love* the pictures of your kitties, and Olive is getting so big!!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        There are a couple more sponsored posts coming that will feature them, so hold on to that feeling :)

        And yes, Olive is getting huge. She’s almost as big as Lucy now. It’s bizarre to watch.

        1. Seal*

          Both your cats are adorable! I adopted a 5-month old kitten my idiot neighbors abandoned outdoors just before Thanksgiving. He gained a pound in the first 2 weeks I had him and now at 8 months old weighs as much as my full-grown cats. It’s been fun to watch him grow – his tummy gets round, then he gets taller, and the the cycle repeats. He’s going to be a big boy!

          1. Meg*

            I adopted a feral-born kitten that hadn’t been weaned from the mother yet, but he was always crying and I had been sitting (crushed) hard dog food outside and water. He was the only one I saw or heard. The mother is an orange and white striped cat, and the father is a large black and white tom. This kitten is a smokey gray, but you can see some faint darker gray stripes in his coat. We didn’t know if it he was a boy or a girl kitten until his genitalia descended, which gave us a good estimate for his age.

            At first, for a few days, he would hide under my couches from my dog, a 7 year old female pitbull. She just wanted to love on him, and lick him to death. He warmed right up to her, and would play and scuffle and cuddle. He is about 5 months old now, spoiled rotten, very energetic and outgoing kitten who doesn’t take shit from the dog and will purposely instigate everything when he wants to play.

            And he’s grown so much, and is already the size of the last cat I owned almost 20 years ago. I have a feeling he’s going to be as big as his tom cat father. Beautiful dark gray coat though.

        4. Jessa*

          Olive is a foster fail right (you were fostering her and wouldn’t let go cause she’s so adorable?)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes, we were just supposed to foster her for a month or so. What I learned is that you should never just foster one at a time — you will get too attached. (I fostered two sisters a few years ago and it was much easier — less of an intense bond developed. Er, kittens, not children.)

    3. Dan*

      Or just up late because the boss means it when he says we have flexible hours and I won’t show up until about 1015 tomorrow ;)

    4. Rayner*

      Thank you, AAM! It’s nine am here, and I’m just tucking into AAM and Breakfast :D

  2. Anonymous*

    I’ve just been asked for my first ever second interview. I’m thrilled. 6 years out of college and I’ve been looking to move out of my current position for the past 3 years.

    Now, what can I expect from the second interview? I thought I was asked all they needed to know

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hiring someone is a big deal. Talking to them one time for an hour shouldn’t cut it. And same goes for you — your next job has the potential to make you truly miserable or really fulfilled — don’t you want to screen them through more than a single interview?

      As for what they’ll ask, expect a deeper dive into your experience and their needs, and possibly talking to other people involved in the process.

      1. Anonymous*

        I get that feeling, thanks to your blog which played a big part in me getting this far. I’ve met four people already now I have to meet with the 2 directors. I guess I never really thought it could be this strenuous.

        How does one go about getting time off without having the current employer suspect something. I’m also in a position where if my current boss finds that I’m looking to move, she will let me go immediately.

        1. Dan*

          How actively are you interviewing? If it’s just the one job, you could probably get away with “doctors visit with follow up”. If you’re doing it more frequently, then I’m not sure what to do. I guess if you really really had to, you could try some variation of “family member needs regular assistance” ie, mom fell and you have to take her to rehab every Friday for six months because she can’t drive until her right foot gets better.

          1. Dan*

            I realize you might have to take *every* Friday afternoon off or something like that, but if you really are actively interviewing and don’t want to raise *any* suspicion, you’ll have to get creative and make a few sacrifices.

          2. Rayner*

            I wouldn’t lie like that. It could definitely backfire if someone were to talk to your parent or someone familiar with them, or that you slipped up.

            Weaving an unnecessarily tangled web for no reason is a bad idea, in my opinion.

        2. some1*

          If this is the only interview on your plate now, just tell/email your boss, “I have an appointment Thursday afternoon and I will be leaving/arriving for the day at X:00. I will use X hours vacation time/PTO.”

          People have personal appointments all the time that aren’t doctor’s appointments (like meeting with a loan officer, lawyer, financial planner, contractor, etc) that can’t take place outside work hours.

        3. AdAgencyChick*

          If they want to interview you more than twice (and even if they want to interview you twice), ask whether an interview before or after hours, or at lunchtime, would be possible. You may be able to do at least a couple of interviews in such a way that you’re not even absent at a time that would be noticed.

          Good hiring managers know that if they want to hire someone who is currently employed, they need to acknowledge that that person has a work schedule — and it’s pretty obnoxious, IMO, to schedule multiple interviews during normal working hours on different days.

      2. Dan*

        Interesting perspective. In my field, the only time I’ve had a second interview, it was unexpected, and I got rejected. Every single other job I’ve had or interviewed for only had one in person interview.

        That said, my interviews generally consist of meeting four different people (at a minimum) over the course of a few hours to a full day. For lower level jobs with multiple interviews, are they just meeting the same one or two people?

        I haven’t really thought about whether or not I would want to screen through more than one interview. In my field, it’s kind of hard to figure out *exactly* what I would do during the interview anyway. When I ask, they tell me they’ll figure it out when I onboard.

        1. Jen RO*

          For the company I’m currently interviewing for, I had 3 interviews so far and I’m waiting for the fourth.
          1. HR
          2. Potential future peer (the other person with my title)
          3. Product manager (also a peer, sort of)
          4. Department manager (the hiring manager)

          In my experience, this is fairly common. Maybe not 4 interviews, but at least 2, on different days. Most of the time it’s a HR person and the hiring manager, but for my ex-company people were also interviewed by the team leader in addition to HR and the manager.

          1. Jen RO*

            And I see you asked for more details below. To be specific, I’m a technical writer. The interviews with the various people weren’t that different from one another: they all asked about my background, why I was leaving my then-job, what I knew about their company. When I interviewed with a hiring manager or a potential peer, we also talked shop – what tools they use, what departments they interact with, what kind of specific skills they’re looking for (e.g. ideally they want someone who can already document APIs, but they will consider someone who knows the basics and can learn the details).

            Oh, and most interviews also included a written test, which in my field is a must. To me, a company not testing their candidates is a red flag.

            1. Meg*

              It is similar for my industry. I’m a web developer and currently a contractor. So my interview process tends to be like:

              1. Phone screen. Really not an interview, just some clarification on skills and possible fit because the recruiters usually have little to no programming background and just looking to see if it matches with what their client is looking for.

              2. Phone screen with another developer, or technical lead of the contracting company to evaluate knowledge of skills. Often times, it may be a code sample, or simple project. Once I had a PSD and had to make a high-fidelity prototype (or mock, something that would typically be used for usability testing and not a production-grade application or page).

              3. In-person interview with the client, where I’d see the work site and meet with my on-site manager and other developers, get a feel for the type of work I’d be expected to do, some sort of technical evaluation.

              I don’t actually discuss salary requirements with my client; my contractor hashes that out with HR on my behalf. I’ve never been asked for a salary history either, luckily. But my manager doesn’t know what I make, so I don’t really get raises. If I want a raise, I’d go to the contracting company. Usually though I’m locked into a rate by contract, but say the contract was expiring and I was negotiating a renewal or an extension – that’s when I would ask for a raise.

          2. Emily K*

            My employer uses a process like this:

            1. Phone screen with HR.
            2. In-person first-round interviews with supervisor and supervisor’s supervisor.
            3. In-person second-round interviews with director and three peer-level colleagues.

            The phone screen is just to make sure you’re aligned on things like start date, salary expectations, and more procedural things like that. The first in-person interviews are more in-depth going over the position and what you’d be doing in it with the people who will be setting goals and managing you day-to-day. If someone makes it to the second in-person interviews, at that point it’s either because we want to hire them and want to check for cultural fit and increase the team and the candidate’s exposure to each other before making a decision, or it’s down to just 2-3 of candidates with very well-matched qualifications and the hiring managers want to hear the rest of the team’s thoughts on who is a better fit.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Congrats!

      Second interviews are typically extended to a smaller group of final candidates.

      The interviewers can be an entirely new group of people. They might be peer level or they might be the higher ups. In my world, I usually only interview at 2nd interview, after the candidates have been screened to final group.

      We’re primarily looking for cultural fit at second interview.

      This:

      How does one go about getting time off without having the current employer suspect something. I’m also in a position where if my current boss finds that I’m looking to move, she will let me go immediately

      We are sensitive to this anyway but especially at 2nd interview, realizing the person has already taken work time once for the first. We’ll arrange interview hours at off times (8 in the morning, 6 at night) if the candidate requests.

      Hopefully this helps!

      1. Dan*

        What type of people are you hiring? As I posted above, second interviews make me curious — I’ve only had to do them once, and never for the four professional offers I’ve received. Just for the sake of conversation, my current position started me just shy of six figures, so it’s not as if I’m interviewing for really low level positions where they’re just willing to take a chance.

        It’s probably worth adding that in my field, employers expect to interview out of town candidates so they’re used to setting up a process where everything gets knocked out in a day.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          *nods*

          I think the out of town thing is the key. If we were bringing people from out of town, that would be the defacto second interview, because we’d only take their time and our money for a group of finalists if travel was involved.

          But, we pretty much never bring people in from out of town so not an issue there.

          In our world, all jobs have a second interview with different people interviewing than the first. Warehouse, sales reps, marketing, graphic artists, clerical, accounting, IT, programming, everything.

          Second interviews are conversations. When I second interview, I don’t take a pad and pen, I don’t take any notes. I just sit down and talk to the person. (I do not second interview everybody, I’d go mad. I second interview people who are more closely in my sphere but everybody gets second interviewed — except temps, who just get first interviewed.)

          1. Dan*

            Fair enough. Generally, “Interview #1” is a phone call with technical staff or management. It’s always interesting to see who they decide gets to make the decision to come onsite for the interview. Sometimes it’s an analyst, and sometimes it’s a VP of sorts. Oh, sometimes there’s an “Interview #0” which is a chat with HR. That doesn’t really count in my book.

            If I make it on site, I most certainly will meet with the key decision makers as part of the day, as well as others in the “chain”.

            Everybody who interviews me has my resume in front of them. But you are right, for me, the best interviews are “conversations”. If you stick to a canned script, forget it. If you want to talk about who I am, what I do, have done, and can bring to the company, I’m all for it.

            One of the things that I find interesting with this blog is reading different people’s interview experiences, and the crap they have to put up with for presumably a lot less money.

            So far, Operation Smile takes the cake. All of that crap for $12.50/hr? WTF?

      2. De Minimis*

        At OldJob, if you got to a second interview you had a really good chance at getting an offer [it was the type of place where they hired several people at once, so you weren’t really competing for a limited number of spots.]

        The first interview was to determine a general sense of “fit,” and the second interview involved meeting with the people that you would be working with, and also to give you a sense of what it was like to work there. They were really mindful of the idea that it was a two-way street and the need to sell the candidate on the idea of working there.

    3. OP 2nd Interview*

      Now that I think about it here is how it really went down;

      1st day – phone screen
      2nd day – skills test (went in casual, that’s what HR insisted)
      3rd day – 4 people interviw (1 hour each separately)
      4th day – been asked, need to agree on time

      See where my dilemma; I’ve had 3 day requests already. At most I thought it will be 2 days off. Now I’m guessing if all is well I’ll need a “drug test” day.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        That seems awfully inconsiderate. I hope the job is worth it and you get it.

        We do a phone interview mostly at your convenience. Any skills testing is combined with first interview so, absolute max 2 hours there. 2nd interview is max 2 hours, usually less, and we’ll accommodate around your work hours if requested.

        Of course, we’re not a special snowflake employer who can afford to drive off good people with unreasonable time demands.

        1. OP 2nd Interview*

          I think it’s worthy it. My salary will change from 36K to 56K. My commute time will cut the distance in half. I just hope it works out, I’m hopeful. I don’t think I can go through this again for another 6 months.

          1. VictoriaHR*

            Wishing you luck!! I’m sorry your current boss is such a brat. She shouldn’t be in management if she’d let someone go just for looking elsewhere.

          2. Dan*

            Good luck! We’ve seen people sweat over $5k and a longer commute. I’ve been known to point out that taxes and increased commuting expenses are going to suck up most of it, and you’ll see relatively little increase.

            But $20k and a shorter commute? Sounds like heaven, and no wonder why you’re anxious.

            Good luck.

          3. Anonymous*

            If you think your employer will let you go as soon as you give notice (assuming you get the offer and accept) then you may want to mention that to the place you are interviewing at. I did that because I knew my Old Job would ask me to leave right away (IT related) and I didn’t want to go 2 weeks without pay. I didn’t have vacation accrued to fall back on. They agreed to an earlier start date if I was asked to leave immediately which I was. Just a thought.

        2. Dan*

          Same here. I’ve had on-site skills tests combined with the first interview. Lately, I’ve done web-based skills tests from home, no need to take off work for that.

  3. Anon Today*

    Wow, this is up early! Anyhow, perfect timing. So I just got a new job, and started this week. Its kind of boring, just being that I’m still learning things, but I think I’ll like it. With that in mind, I have 2 questions.

    #1 How proactive do they really want me to be this early. Its a sales role, and while I am doing some shadowing of people and listening in on calls, a lot of it is just me getting familiar with our product and competitors. I’m kind of letting my manager dictate what I should be doing, and I have a check in with him at the end of every day and he is like “I know you are keeping yourself busy” and things like that. I don’t want to look lazy, but I also feel like I should just follow his lead.

    #2 Is about hours. So my first day the owner (who offered me the job since its a smallish company) told me to be in at 9am. In order to not to look lazy, I didn’t ask about an end time. I figured it would be 530 or 6. Well, my manager and the owner who both came in after me, left before me. Thats fine, since I know how it goes when you have been somewhere a while, but I never really got a sense of when I should leave. Finally yesterday I asked about the “standard” hours. He basically said people usually work 9-6 or 8-5 with an hour lunch. If you don’t take the full hour, you can leave a bit early. I personally am more of a morning person, so I’d prefer 8-5, but he comes in at varying times. So today I got in at 830, but he wasn’t there til after 9, so he doesn’t know when I got in. In order to not look bad I ended up staying til almost 6 (with no real work going on AND a shorter lunch). Should I just suck it up and do 9-6 for now for appearance sake?

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      In regards to #2, I would work 9-6 until you’re more on your own. If the person you’re shadowing comes in at 9 (or a little after), there’s no point in being in before him.

      2. Anon Today*

        Problem is, I’m not really shadowing one person. There are 2 other sales people, a guy and a girl, in my area that I’m kind of watching and working with at different points, and both of them come in and leave at different times each day, depending on what they have going on. The guy has more sales, and stuff in the pipeline, so he definitely stays longer. The girl on the other hand, I’ve been in before her everyday, and she still leaves before me, and that connection isn’t lost on me. As I said, I have no problem staying a bit later once I have work, but for now, I’d just like to figure out a normal schedule.

        1. Jen RO*

          Since you’re so new, I’d go with 9 to 6, to be on the safe side. If you come in at 8 and leave at 5, the people who come at 9 might think you’d only been there since 8.55. Once you’re more established I’m sure you’ll be able to be more flexible.

          1. Jen RO*

            Oh, and I’ll also add the obvious: ask! Since everyone else’s hours seem to be all over the place, it won’t be weird to clarify with your boss.

            1. Anon Today*

              Like I said, I did ask, and he just said “8-5 or 9-6 is what people work”. So it seems like he was giving me the “option”, however as you said, if I get in at 8:30 and others get in at 9, they don’t know that I didn’t get there 5 min before them but am leaving a half hour before.

              1. Just a Reader*

                I actually got dinged on this once–my workplace had a mandatory 55-hour work week. So I would come in very very early (like 7) and leave at 6.

                I got into trouble for “leaving early” because nobody ever saw what time I got in due to a late-working culture.

                It was a salaried writing position. And possibly the worst job I’ve ever had.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      The only thing that is important in a sales job, especially in a smaller company, is sales. The way you make a good impression is sales. The way you make a bad impression is appearing overly interested in things that aren’t sales, like what hours you work, how long your lunch is, and when you get to leave.

      Sales jobs are super simple this way. There’s not much to worry about it and politics mean nothing as long as you are selling.

      Since you can’t sell yet, the one thing you don’t want to do is leave before your boss does, even if you come in at 4am. Work hard at learning and start selling as soon as you can. Once you are selling, if you do well, you can likely work however you please and whenever you please as long as the numbers are there.

      1. Anon Today*

        I get that, but my boss is preparing for some big conference next week, so the last couple days he has been putting in crazy hours, and it will be like him, me and maybe 2 other people in the office. So I’m trying to base it more on when my colleagues leave, but they are all over the place in arrival and leaving time. I’d like a bit more of something set while I’m still getting my feet wet. Of course I know that when I’m selling, I’ll have to come in early, stay late, or both, depending on clients. But for now, it just feels unnecessary to never have any clue when I can leave.

      2. E.R*

        Eh, I disagree with this. I’m a salesperson and a sales manager, for a company of about 10 people. I’ve also worked for huge companies. On the one hand, your sales definitely matter. Of course they do. Just like if you were a marketing person, your marketing really matters. But its not ALL that matters. How much effort you put in, how you get a long with your co-workers (because sales doesnt happen in a vacuum, you are representing your company and often working with people outside your sales department to get things done. If your coworkers like you, you will get more done), being a team player etc. No matter how great a sales person you are, you are doing to hit rough patches where you are not bringing in that much. If you’ve got the rest (attitude, work ethic, company support) you have a much better chance of being kept on board until things improve. If you want to be defined solely on your sales numbers, and not worry about all that other stuff, go for it. But if will hit a rough patch eventually, and nobody will miss you.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Yeah, my answer was over simplistic and your answer is more complete. Mine was a 101 answer and yours i s the 201 and 301 answer.

          A good sales person also has to sell internally to get cooperation. We all know “that guy” who is obnoxious to/uncooperative with support staff, for instance, who is a disaster waiting to happen. It’s hard to sustain success when people around you are rooting for you to fail.

          My over simple answer was about time in/out and appearance politics. There’s so short a window when it makes a difference, after that it’s numbers that matter. Appearing hard working/focused on learning so you are ready to sell sell sell when it is time IS important, but other people stop thinking about it as soon as you are selling.

          * disclaimer: there’s a whole “call report culture” which is different from this and an environment that I think is dysfunctional and unproductive. Sales reps in this culture are overmanaged and judged also by what they put on their call report and get to enjoy sales manager questions like “why do you have 3 appointments scheduled for this day instead of 5” and “what do you mean you need half an office day on Friday to do paperwork, do that at night, schedule more appointments”.

          Nothing you or I said applies in one of those dreary places.

    3. Dan*

      WRT #1: Those kinds of people drive me nuts. I’M NEW DUDE. I need some hand holding for a week or so.

      My current organization is a 700 person group in a 7000 person company. My boss told me where expected to find our own work and pitch in where we can. Um, dude, I’m new, and I don’t know anybody. What am I supposed to do, walk down the hall with my hand held out holding a plastic cup in one hand, and a sign in the other saying “will work for food?”

      They *want* you to be a fully trained employee day one. Ya ain’t gonna be. So be “proactive” until they tell you to stop. Delicate balancing act.

      FWIW, I ended up quitting one job, because after a year, I was tired of asking for work.

      1. Anon Today*

        Exactly. I don’t think it will be bad for too long, but I’d at least like some guidance on what to be doing, looking at, researching, etc. I don’t want to just go up to one of my colleagues and ask to look over their shoulder all day, because I don’t know who the manager wants me to work with for what.

        To make matters worse, since I’m new I’m trying to avoid browsing the net for non-work stuff, so even though I could easily entertain myself in the down times, I’m not doing that muc.

      2. De Minimis*

        That is the exact situation I found myself in…they just set a bunch of us loose to sink or swim and find something to do. You had some people who had interned before and had a network in place, the rest of us had to scrounge around just to get someone to let us make copies.

    4. Cube Diva*

      I think it depends on if they’re as concerned about your hours as you are. When I started my job, I was told what hours I should work, which weren’t the same as my boss’s. Then, everyone was gone for a pre-planned meeting my entire second week. I didn’t have to check in, my boss assumed I’d work my hours, and on the list we talked about before everyone left. I was treated like an adult, and when they returned, the focus was on what I got done during the week, not if I worked 7.5 hours one of the days.

      Also- my boss comes in and leaves about an hour before I do each day. It’s just assumed that the rest of us be here to get our stuff done. I realize this may not be the case at your new position, but if they’re not concerned about it, just make sure you’re learning and doing what you need to be doing. They’ll notice that more than random half hours.

  4. Sandrine*

    Hi all! I recently wrote to Alison about a possible internal transfer that my friends were saying was a bad idea… and did not get it (instead of “strong characters” in that department, it’s more like “catty b******” and the manager thinks I’d be eaten alive).

    Now, my boss has made it clear that I am on the priority list for a transfer next time one comes up. Only thing is, of course, no one knows when that might happen.

    Since my call center job has been driving me crazy for the past two years and a half, any tips to help me wait a little more? I want to stick it out until I’m here at least three full years (better on the résumé) and I’m already at my breaking point…

    1. Dan*

      Make up little games to keep yourself entertained or little challenges to focus your mind.

      Odd thing with call centers: I do analytics work, and it turns out that one of my coworkers and I used to work for the same company about ten years ago. He used to do call center work, where I worked “in the field.” I told him that I hated to tell him this, but I know your job sucked while mine was awesome, and I bet he cussed me out when I had to call the call center. (They didn’t like employees calling in, although we kinda had to from time to time.)

      FWIW, I had a huge problem with 800 FLOWERS a couple of years ago, they tried telling me that they attempted delivery three days in a row and nobody was home. I got on the phone with the call center, and told the rep that I had nothing to do for the next two hours, and that I knew he couldn’t hang up on me. So he had a choice: Find a way to get my flowers delivered *pronto* or I’d drive up his call stats. Keep in mind they wouldn’t give me the contact info for the local florist or have the florist call me.

      I got my flowers delivered. It totally pissed me off, because they were delivered within 15 minutes after they “caved” (I think I was on the phone for an hour or so). And when I saw the address on the card, the florist ist at *least* 30 minutes away, and not the “around the corner” florist. Meaning they were in the neighborhood and wouldn’t circle back. That made me mad, ’cause I was home all day and heard nobody knock.

      1. Sandrine*

        As for the games, well, sometimes I do write down my call stats down to see how they progress during the day, sometimes I have a stack of paper to draw on (you’d be surprised at how much you can draw when you can’t hang up on a customer having difficulty programming their phones because they just won’t listen to you) … sometimes, despite it being forbidden, I just have a stash of food (that I share, though) and then sometimes the ultimate “THIS IS NOT ALLOWED” … I use my phone.

        I’m not a rebel by nature, mind you. And I do everything as discreetly as I can, not making noise, no food noises to customers (loving the mute button for that when you’ve just taken a sip of soda and… you know…) , desk always neat, I pick up my trash and am a team player and all…

        What’s sad about your 800 FLOWERS story though is that in my case, there are tons of things we cannot do as phone operators (unlike other providers) because, apparently, ever since the service started my company realized some assholes employees were abusing the system so their scrapped some responsibilities (like changing the e-mail once account is verified or changing their bank information) .

        Thank you for your contribution, every bit helps, even if someone comes in and tells me to suck it up xD .

        1. Dan*

          One of the sad things with work is that many times, your only choices are to suck it up or leave.

          I know that when I lead projects, if my subordinates object to the way I do things or the way things are going (and they can’t convince me to change my mind) their only real choice is to leave if they can’t suck it up. Boss put *me* in charge for a reason, and sometimes I have to draw the line.

          Don’t get me wrong, I do listen to those underneath me, but if my boss likes the way things are going, the client likes the way things are going, and I like the way things are going, it’s going to be harder for those in the trenches to make much changes.

          1. Sandrine*

            I do get that, but sometimes, it’s eerie how things just simply don’t make processes go any easier.

            For example, for the email thing I was talking about. Used to be that a customer would verify a few things, I could change the e-mail to whatever they wanted me to, boom, done.

            Except we get customer service surveys sometimes, and some coworkers would change the email to theirs, wait until the survey came in, give themselves a boost, and change the email back (or so the rumor says).

            And now I’m thinking… why not fire those people, instead of punishing the others ?

            Just like note taking on files when dealing with a call. Every call, we create a note to indicate that today there was a call, then we can create different tabs sub-notes to differentiate between questions.

            As silly as it might be… they decided to get rid of the ability to copy and paste when leaving those notes. When you just have to write “Info about service in X plan” it’s good, but when it’s more complicated (like questions about an invoice that you’d need to get the details for) you find yourself having to retype it all… worse, if the system breaks, you can’t even copy your note and have to restart all over o_o .

            I know these are probably nitpicky, but I pride myself in my integrity to do great work while honoring guidelines, and it makes me sad to see that they only see bad people doing things so they get rid of “perks” that made our jobs easier :( .

            1. Dan*

              Sometimes sh!tty management is just that, and call centers seem to have their own special place when it comes to that.

              If it makes you feel better, I once had a job that required us to break the rules every day we showed up to work. At that job, they required 3 people to do Function X. I worked midnights, where Function X was a major part of our responsibilities. But they only staffed us with 2 people. So how were we supposed to do our jobs and stay within guidelines?

              They made things worse when somebody at a different location had an accident while performing Function X with less than the “required” amount of people. The guy had been with the company for like 19 years, and they fired him for violating policy. And they sent out a company wide announcement about it.

              Other than that, I liked that job. But these days, I thank my lucky stars that I have a job where we act like adults and get treated like adults, we can come and go as we please, take vacation without having to worry about finding coverage (and take our full allotment without crap from management), not work more than 40 hours a week, work from home at the first hint of snow (no worries about being the crazy person who’s too afraid to drive), oh, and not have to deal with the general public.

              1. Chriama*

                This reminds me of the Series of unfortunate events book “The Austere Academy” where the principal made one of the characters work in his office every day and then punished her for being in the admin building. So bizarre it’s amusing!

            2. en pointe*

              I can see how that must be frustrating – when they implement things that make life harder, and effectively punish everybody, because a few employees act without integrity… rather than just dealing with the employees acting without integrity. Hope your transfer comes through soon!

      2. Jen RO*

        First time I read this I thought you were having 800 actual flowers delivered… derp.

    2. Jen RO*

      No advice, I just hope you have nice coworkers to commiserate with. And I’ll take you out to lunch next time I’m in Paris, if it makes you feel better :P

      1. Sandrine*

        Jen RO, I’d be more happy to have lunch with any AAM commenter coming to the city ;) .

        And to be honest, I do think that my coworkers have made up for some of the stuff I’ve been feeling. Especially one of them who’s just a fascinating person that I can’t be thankful enough for!

    3. Josh S*

      Call center work is hard because so much is tied to your media like handle time or calls answered.

      There’s 2 routes to go to make the next months bearable : the first is to find something to occupy your mind and entertain yourself so you’re not focused on how miserable you are. Drawing, etc.
      The second is to find a way to make your work itself more meaningful (and therefore less unbearable) . This is harder, but more fulfilling. It might be working on a filing /organizing project, or making sure the call routing IVR has enough people staged on each skill /prompt to keep queue handle times equal. Our finding way to make the work less miserable for your coworkers.

      If you choose #2, it will be hard. But you’ll accomplish 2 things. A) demonstrate that you’re not just in a holding pattern til something better comes along (even if that’s true), and b) show that you’re *already * doing the work expected of someone who is a supervisor.

      Good luck, and hope that promotion comes soon. Call center work is no fun.

      1. Anon #2*

        #2 is great advice, Josh S.

        Sandrine, in addition to the advice offered, also consider increasing your level of enjoyable activities outside of work. The more positive input you have in your life, the more diluted the dissatisfying areas at work will become. There will still be the effects of dissatisfaction, but hopefully they’ll be less bothersome.

        Also, by increasing your activities outside of work, you may end up forming relationships with people who can be influential if and when you choose to move on from the call center.

        Best of luck as you wait out the 6 months (or sooner, if a transfer comes through before then)!

        1. Sandrine*

          Thank you. I actually applied to be a sort of supervisor three times, and despite acing the tests, I bombed the interviews and didn’t get the opportunities (but I get really nervous in interviews… ouchies) . Thing is, one of the supervisors, that I was friendly with during a special work week together, told me I should avoid it at all costs anyway because it’s a soul sucking experience and they’re not treated any better than we phone monkeys are.

          So right now, the aim is to get somewhere where I can get rid of that pesky “phone” thing :P .

    4. Tiff*

      That kinda sucks, and I’m sorry. I work in customer service with the public daily, and people can sometimes make you wonder how we even survived the Stone Age. I had a crappy job for almost 2 years, and I tried a lot of tricks just to get myself through the day – doodling, commiserating, munching. All I got from it was a few extra pounds and proof positive that I would never have a career in art. What DID make me feel better was documenting my accomplishments (just an email to myself that I kept in a folder on outlook), looking at jobs I wanted to get and making plans on how I could get the experience needed to get those jobs. In the face of gloom and despair, productivity and ambition made me feel much better.

      Just thought I’d share what works for me.

      1. Sandrine*

        Thanks for sharing!

        The food thing is kinda problematic for me because we have 30 minutes we can take as a break every day, and the most common way is 3×10 even though we can negociate for a different arrangement if need be. No more lunch hour, weee!

        Which means that I usually wake up at 4:30 AM, get up at 5:30, leave at 5:50, leave work at about 3 PM and I’m home by 5:30 PM… if I’m lucky (it’s usually more like 7:30PM to have something that resembles a social life outside of work). So I can only eat a real real meal right after work, and *at* work I mostly get either salty snacks that I eat during breaks, or sugary stuff that will help between calls (or during calls when I really need that sugar boost).

        To Anon #2, I forgot to reply that I’m actually trying to find new things to go. There’s a writing workshop once a month. I have a newly found obsession with nail polish (amidst -forgot spelling- all that, I finally managed to stop biting my nails! woohoo!) . I want to buy a bike. I’ll be in New Jersey at the end of May for a wedding. I adopted two cats. Moved into my own apartment at the end of January. And am quite happy geeking out with the HDMI cable between the TV and the laptop so that my TV becomes a glorified Skype/OtherTabs screen when I’m reading AAM or Facebook :P.

        I also write songs, and try to sing (even though the French version of American Idol would say I’m a major fail… that’s a fun story for another day) . So all in all, I can’t really say I don’t have anything to do… but sometimes it feels like it’s not enough :P .

        I really, really appreciate the time you all took to reply *_* . Just that act makes me all… I don’t know, hopeful. Optimistic. And smile.

        Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    5. Emma*

      Someone here* suggested, to another call center peon who needed motivation ages ago, to pretend that her customers were time travelers to the present. So…pretend you’re helping Dr. Frankenstein program his phone so he can send a selfie with his monster to Igor?

      1. Sandrine*

        Oh darn it didn’t post from my phone :( !

        Good one, Emma. I do wish I had a Tardis to show people around, though. Might be more useful than trying to teach them.

        Sadly, I only have a screwdriver that beeps and lights up… I need a blue police box ASAP :(

  5. Emma*

    I’m looking into occupational or physical therapy as a possible master’s degree/career.

    Any current or former students or practitioners want to give me the low-down on those two fields? What you like and don’t like? Ease or difficulty in finding relevant, full-time work after graduation? How fulfilling is the work compared to your expectations?

    1. A Teacher*

      Well, this is cool this is my niche. I’m an athletic trainer and worked for a large physical therapy company full time before switching to teaching full time and working as an athletic trainer PRN for a smaller company. I also am an adjunct at a college that has a PTA program and teach a prereq needed to get into OT/PT school. Okay, so specifically: job stability is good and you have a lot of options when it comes to settings to work in for both OT/PT. You have to be good with people because you should be working 1:1 especially when you are working with Medicare (this is a legal thing, some companies violate it though) for up to an hour at a time. You will be dealing with patients from all walks of life which is cool if you like to learn about people and deal with diverse populations. Some of the injuries/illnesses that you help to treat are interesting and its always rewarding when you help a patient on their path to wellness. Most companies compensate fairly well and finding a job shouldn’t be that complicated–at least it hasn’t been for my many, many friends that work in the field.

      Downfalls: can be very tedious; paperwork sucks–it just does; carpal tunnel and low back problems are common. Insurance mandates are not fun to deal with (and more paperwork). A lot of the bigger PT companies, at least in the Chicagoland area that I’ve worked in and have friends in, tend to have pretty high turnover. Backstabbing to get ahead is an issue that you will see. Burnout tends to be higher too.

      The job is very rewarding, I don’t think that ever stops. Even working part time, helping people is rewarding. You do learn to draw a line and at times I think you do depersonalize your patients. I didn’t like working in a PT clinic because it was the same thing day in and day out–but there are a ton of options for PTs and OTs after graduation. Most of my friends have stayed in their various settings for 2-3 years for the first job and moved on. Several have been through 4 different positions in the 8-10 years they’ve been in practice, its common to move between companies where I’m from. All of my PT/OT/ATC friends like their degrees and what they do, they may not like a specific employer but they do like their professions.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        FWIW, PTs and OTs often end up in the management roles in allied health jobs (rehab hospitals, nursing homes, skilled nursing facilities, etc.). From what I have seen, there is a lot of ability to change employers in allied health–much greater than other fields.

        From what I understand, the DPT (Doctor of Physical Therapy) is now the required degree (not Master’s), so you should be aware of that. I agree with what A Teacher says above–to that I would add: if there is a particular population or practice area w/in PT/OT, be sure to do a grad program that allows you to gain as much experience in that area as possible (ie, pediatrics, geriatrics, sports, stroke rehab, etc.). Good luck!

    2. OhNo*

      I don’t have any insight into what the profession itself is like – but I can tell you that if you decide to go the OT/PT route for a career, your patients will (for the most part) appreciate the hell out of you. I spent 6 months in physical rehab, and I still remember every PT I ever worked with, and I still go back to visit some of my favorite therapists occasionally, six years later.

      From what I’ve seen in my area, working part time seems to be the norm for most therapists. If that is true in other places, I don’t know.

    3. anon*

      My husband is enrolled in a physical therapy grad program right now. He loves it. He worked as a physical therapy tech and took a lot of prerequisites at a community college before getting into school.

      He’s a really active kind of guy who never wanted to sit at a desk job all day. But he wanted to enter a well-paying profession with a good career outlook that involved helping people. With baby boomers aging, physical therapists are supposed to have great job security (unlike a lot of other professions where things can constantly change). Plus, you can enter a lot of different specialties throughout your career. You could work at a rehab center, an outpatient clinic, a hospital, a nursing home, etc.

      From what I’ve seen, I think you have to be a really good communicator who is comfortable working closely with people all day long (people who may be in pain and not at their best, too). You also need a strong academic record to get into school. Hope this info helps!

      1. anon*

        And one more thing — compared to other medical professions, physical therapists work pretty ideal daytime hours. They don’t have to be scheduled on night shifts or be on call like physicians do. If you are concerned about family-work balance, this can be a big plus.

    1. Anonicorn*

      That would be interesting, though not for my part since it would be a picture of me in front of a computer, sometimes avidly typing and other times leaning back and throwing a ball against a wall.

    2. Jamie*

      Yours is more moving – but it reminded me of the funny ones.

      Just google “what my parents think i do” and your profession.

      Love this one:
      http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8o8k5BlTg1IAVl2JzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzY211NWg5BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyMDhmZWEwODJhZjQ1NjFlNDlhZjk3NzBjMTlmMGE2MwRncG9zAzQxBGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dwhat%2Bmy%2Bparents%2Bthink%2Bi%2Bdo%2Bcomputer%26n%3D60%26ei%3Dutf-8%26fr%3Dchr-greentree_ff%26fr2%3Dsb-top%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D41&w=800&h=565&imgurl=weknowmemes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Ftech-support-what-my-friends-think-i-do-meme.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fweknowmemes.com%2F2012%2F02%2Fwhat-i-really-do-meme%2F&size=76.0KB&name=%3Cb%3Emy+%3C%2Fb%3Efriends+%3Cb%3Ethink+I+do+%3C%2Fb%3E%E2%80%93+%3Cb%3Ewhat+my+%3C%2Fb%3Emom+thinks+%3Cb%3EI+do+%3C%2Fb%3E%E2%80%93+%3Cb%3Ewhat+I+think+%3C%2Fb%3E…&p=what+my+parents+think+i+do+computer&oid=208fea082af4561e49af9770c19f0a63&fr2=sb-top&fr=chr-greentree_ff&tt=%3Cb%3Emy+%3C%2Fb%3Efriends+%3Cb%3Ethink+I+do+%3C%2Fb%3E%E2%80%93+%3Cb%3Ewhat+my+%3C%2Fb%3Emom+thinks+%3Cb%3EI+do+%3C%2Fb%3E%E2%80%93+%3Cb%3Ewhat+I+think+%3C%2Fb%3E…&b=0&ni=240&no=41&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11lupvfe2&sigb=14h9v6drt&sigi=12r9te08r&.crumb=vkV03T0D7dW&fr=chr-greentree_ff

  7. Trixie*

    Also watching the 1980 production of Price & Prejudice on Netflix. After all the various themes and spin-offs written, someone should write one from Anne DeBerg’s perspective. Maybe see her settle down Colonel Fitzwilliam!

    1. LisaLyn*

      I’ve always felt bad for poor Anne. It wasn’t her fault she was sickly — it was probably because her mother never let her leave the house.

    3. LPBB*

      Each time I re-read P&P, I’m still a little sad that Lizzie doesn’t end up with Colonel Fitzwilliam. Even though he’s only in it for a chapter(?), it seems like he and Lizzie have better chemistry than Lizzie and Darcy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m always happy at the end that she ends up with Darcy, but there’s always a little “what if” for me during that portion of the book.

  8. MJ*

    Woohoo, loving this timing! (Waves at everyone from 6.40pm on Friday in New Zealand).

    Putting my question from last week’s thread out there again as I was about 1100 comments down last time!

    I’m looking for advice/resources on plus-size corporate fashion, specifically for a big but very hourglassy shape. Most of the corporate fashion blogs are more mainstream-sized. Any recommendations?

    1. Pepper*

      Fellow Kiwi here!! No advice sorry, except have you tried Ezibuy? They have plus size, not sure about corporate but worth a look. Quality can be iffy though.

      1. MJ*

        Ezibuy are so hit and miss, some of their stuff is amazing and some of it is complete rubbish! I do always keep an eye on their website though :o)

    2. Stephanie*

      Ooh, I struggle with this too! I’m that awkward size where I’m just slightly too large for some straight sizes, but too small for plus sizes. I just wear a lot of dresses/skirts as I find they’re more forgiving size-wise.

      Unfortunately, I don’t know of any blogs offhand. I’ll be monitoring this thread myself.

      1. louise*

        Me too! And I’ve just, um, grown into this stage so I’m really awkward when I shop and have no idea what dept I belong in! The last time I was on the bubble of needing different depts, I was 12 and my mom would run back and forth while I tried things in (and/or had a meltdown, ha!). Now I’m all by myself and I almost cried at kohls recently!

      2. en pointe*

        I love Asos, and they have sales all the time. I’m pretty sure there’s a separate plus size section with curvier models as well, which could better allow you to see how things are likely to sit and so on.

      3. VictoriaHR*

        Check out Gwynnie Bee, it’s basically a clothes sharing service where you can “check out” cute clothes (up to size 32) and they will mail them to you, you wear them until you get bored, send ’em back, they send you something else. I’m in my one-month free trial at the moment, haven’t received my first item yet. But they do have ASOS items, so you can try the fit/style before you buy things.

        http://goo.gl/iUjOSa

        1. VictoriaHR*

          Ooh just saw you’re in NZ, ok Gwynnie Bee wouldn’t work for you, but maybe there’s a NZ equivalent. Oh well, my post might help someone else :)

        2. Sarah Says*

          You should check out eshakti.com -they customize a lot of the outfit to your specifications

    4. Rayner*

      Yoursclothing is a life saver – uk sizes 14-32, and a wide wide variety of clothing from corporate to not. Their shipping is really reasonable too – pretty much world wide, I think – and they’re always having a sale.

      I cannot recommend them enough – when I was panicking because nowhere in a brick store had nice clothes for plus sized people like me, they saved my life. No more wearing sacks and being told that was it – I could actually wear nice clothes!

      *Not paid to endorse this, I just really really love that company.

    5. Dan*

      No advice, although I’m traveling to Australia in a few months. First time Down Under, although I’ve been to SE Asia several times.

      Travel times from the US East coast to OZ are INSANE if you travel through Asia. I’ve got a 14 hour flight followed by a 10 hour flight, with only one stop.

      Considering it’s less than 8 hours to Europe, those kinds of travel times are nuts. It’s like flying on the longest flight you’ve ever been on, followed by a flight longer than it takes to get to Europe. Ugh.

      1. Stephanie*

        I get really antsy on long flights. I think just because I can’t really see the trip progress (just hours and hours of clouds). I do love watching landing and takeoff, especially if it’s like DC, NYC, or Chicago and has a cool-looking approach. But I find the whole experience an unpleasant necessity.

        Some of it, too, is that I grew up doing a ton of road trips. My sister’s autistic and flights were a little too stimulating when she was young (it was exactly like that airport scene in Rain Man), so we just drove everywhere (like 1000+ mi trips).

        So yeah, reading you had 24 hours of flying just made me tense up. But I suppose your other alternative is…a boat? Probably not.

        1. Dan*

          Other choice is not go. This trip is strictly voluntary :) I’ve been really lucky with the frequent flyer mile game, I’ve collected over 1.5 million miles over the last couple of years. So, my tickets are free and I don’t have to fly coach, which makes things so much more tolerable. Sometimes even enjoyable. If I had to fly this far in coach (and pay for it) I probably wouldn’t go.

          The funny thing is, I’ve been to more countries than I have states at this point (we’re talking 20+ countries). I joke that I might actually see some of the US when I run out of miles and have to start buying tickets.

          Long car rides bore me after awhile though. When I fly, I can grab some booze, zone out, watch movies, and get waited on hand and foot. I kinda like it.

          1. Stephanie*

            Yeah, they can be boring. But I do credit all those trips with never getting motion sickness (and being able to read pretty much anywhere).

            Main advantage to driving (in the US at least) is that there’s a ton of stuff I never would have seen without taking some detour on some 16-hour car ride (like all the national parks in the Western US).

            1. Jen RO*

              A road trip through the US is on my (nonexistent) bucket list. It’s unlikely it will ever happen, but it sounds really cool!

              1. en pointe*

                A friend and I have been talking about a US road trip since high school as well. We need to wait till we’re a) 21 and b) less poor, but we’re heaps keen.

                Although, I’m also pretty jealous of you tbh – you can visit so many other European countries so easily!

                1. Jen RO*

                  That’s true, Paris is only a 3 hour flight away for me. Being in the EU has been so amazing, the difference is huge compared to 15 years ago. I have Turkish friends and everything is horribly expensive for them, even though it’s just one extra hour of flying. I don’t care about the economic aspects, but I absolutely love the EU for making travel so easy. And maybe one day they will pressure the US to waive visas for all EU members! Though, as my boyfriend so nicely put it, now that I’m old (30 :P), the US might give me a visa after all.

              2. Stephanie*

                Every time I head to the Grand Canyon, I’m amazed at the number of foreign visitors.

              3. louise*

                Ooh! I live a mile off a *very* famous road trip route through the US and my favorite coffee shop caters to the European tourists who fly to Chicago, rent a car, and drive to LA. If you ever make that US road trip, I’ll treat you to coffee!

                1. athek*

                  I work a mile off of this same route, but I’m assuming in a different part of the county, since I’ve never heard of this coffee shop. :)

      2. MJ*

        Ha, we really are so far from anywhere!

        I went to the Philippines a few weeks ago. 1 hour flight to Auckland, 11 hour flight to Hong Kong, 2 hour flight to Manila. Then back again three days later.

        1. Dan*

          I’d do that only if work made me and told me I didn’t have a choice. 14 hours of flying time gets me to Japan or China or something like that, so I wouldn’t do it for a vacation of less than a week. (I did China for a week in grad school, that was fun…)

          But one of the major differences with your part of the world that may make that somewhat tolerable is that you’re dong mostly North-South flying with few time zone changes. For us in the USA, for that much flying, we’re crossing a sh!t tone of time zones, which wreaks havoc on the body clock. Only exception is flying down to southern south american — that’s 10 hours of flying and only one or two time zone changes.

          1. MJ*

            What? Noooo, not at all. New Zealand is GMT+12, almost no one is in our timezone. The east coast of Australia, the closest country, is two hours behind us. Hong Kong/Indonesia/etc is 5 hours behind.

          2. Anonymous*

            Hey! Do you have any advice for a first time flyer (on United) going to Venice from the Midwest (USA)? I have no idea what to pack and or even what to expect. Any tips would be appreciated. I’m not even sure what type of luggage to buy. Can I bring my own snacks?

            1. Anonymous*

              Check the United website to see how many bags you can bring, the maximum dimensions, and the maximum weight. Yes, you can bring your own snacks to eat on the plane, but not your own liquids (bring an empty bottle to fill from a water fountain). Use seatguru to check out how much space you’ll have. Make sure you have your passport and have called your credit card company to tell them you may be using your card overseas.

      3. Meg*

        That’s how it was when I went to Guam (my brother is in the air force, and is stationed there. I spent a few weeks there with him and his wife). I live on the east coast, and had stop after stop… Philadelphia to Houston to LAX, then LAX to Japan, then Japan to Guam. It was about 5 hours from Philadelphia to Houston to LAX, then about 14 hours from LAX to Japan, and another 3-4 hours from Japan to Guam.

        My SIL is from California and she flies back and forth a couple times a year, especially when he’s out of the country on assignment and she’s by herself. And she flies into San Jose or San Francisco, and says its usually a 19-hour flight from Guam to California.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Lucky!!! I want to go there.

        I’m trying to figure out and plan a trip to the UK this year. I went to London as a high school graduate, to visit my aunt who lives there (my mother’s sister, who at the time was married to a Brit). I absolutely loved it. My ancestry is English and I felt really connected to it, even as a tourist. Unfortunately, I was never able to go back.

        I’d like to see my aunt again (she’s in Surrey now, I think). Although we’ve visited when she came here, I haven’t seen her for a few years and I haven’t met her current bf and I want to see England again. I have several online friends there, a young friend from here who moved to Bath, and I’d like to visit Cardiff if I can. And I desperately need to get away from here for a bit. FAR away. My mom was supposed to go in March but she had to put it off. She’s planning to go in the fall, because she wants to avoid the tourists. I could not care less about that; I don’t need to mess about with tourist stuff in London because I’ve already seen it. I just want to GO.

        Airfare is going to be the worst part. Ugh.

        1. athek*

          I feel you– I’ve been to the UK three times and I just can’t stop. I had a dream I was there the other night…. I’m desperate to go back!

        2. Poe*

          I am living in the UK right now, and I LOVE IT. I spent years dreaming about it, and it has finally worked out. I only have a 2 year work visa, though, so my dream is time-limited, but I don’t care. As much as I’ve struggled with money, work, whatever, it’s been something I wouldn’t trade for stability and cash :)

          Cardiff is awesome – I was there for St Davids Day and it was a great weekend. Can’t wait to go back.

      2. Anonymous*

        US person here, who vacationed in NZ. There is SO much to do and see, a lot depends on your interests of course. I spent most of the time of the North Island and I loved Lake Taupo, which is in the middle of the North Island:
        http://www.newzealand.com/us/lake-taupo/

        I only made a short foray to the South Island, just to Nelson and Abel Tasmen National Park which was STUNNING!
        http://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/national-parks/abel-tasman/

        The flight is brutal and that’s just how it is…but when you get off the plan you’re in paradise so that helps :)

      3. MJ*

        Where exactly are you going? There is SO MUCH to see and do, so if you let me know where you’re headed (and for how long) I can absolutely give some advice :o)

    7. themmases*

      It won’t work if you prefer pants, but have you looked into eshakti? They make dresses, skirts, tops, and jackets and you can pay a small fee to customize the size to your measurements. They usually have a pretty solid collection of work-appropriate clothes, and often they’ll let you customize the length, neckline, and sleeves too to turn something work-appropriate.

      I am also very hourglassy, so I usually pay to customize things there and it has worked out great. They are also having a buy one, get one 50% off sale right now!

      The owner is in the U.S., but the blog Already Pretty also tends to have recommendations for plus-size women and women with specific body types. They style of the writers is more casual, but they’ve pointed me to several sites I’d never considered before.

    8. BB*

      check out nicolette mason dot com. She also writes ‘Big Girl in a Skinny World’ for Marie Claire US and has some stuff on Marie Claire’s website.

    10. NHNonprofitDirector*

      MJ, you might check out Sally at AlreadyPretty.com. Not only does she frequently do features on plus size items per reader requests, but on Fridays she posts links to other fashion blogs and LOTS of them feature curvy and hourglassy very put-together women.

    11. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Blogs: Hems for Her, Wardrobe Oxygen, Grown and Curvy Woman. There are lots!

    12. NOLA*

      I’ve had good luck with Pepperberry. Once you pick your size, you can further customize some items by ordering Curvy, Extra Curvy, or Super Curvey depending on how much room you need up top.

      I had bad luck with the customization at eShatki. My top, waist and hip measurements are starkly different. While the dress I ordered technically fit my measurements, the seamstress didn’t compensate for the extra fabric at the waist so it ended up being weirdly blousy. I had to go get it altered further. Maybe it was just the style I chose or maybe I’m just built funny, but it didn’t work for me.

    13. LD*

      I don’t wear plus-size but just this week I was searching for options to wear to several upcoming weddings and stumbled across igigi.com. They have lovely plus-sized clothing. You might have success there. Good Luck!

    14. Amanda*

      I’m plus sized as well, and from Australia. Corporate fashion is pretty ordinary for plus sized people here too, but my corporate wardrobe mostly consists of:
      – Talbots
      – Lands End
      – Myer (very hit and miss, but sometimes I strike gold)

  9. A Teacher*

    TGIF! I took a personal day (getting my taxes done) so I get to sleep in a bit and enjoy a day off :). My students just debated a career related topic: Should your employer be required to pay for birth control? in class. It lead to some very interesting viewpoints and great discussion with 16-18 year olds for an hour.

    2. Chuchundra*

      It’s the wrong question, though.

      The correct set of questions would be:

      1) Should the government set minimum standards for health insurance as to what is covered?
      2) If 1, should that include birth control?
      3) If 2, should your employer be able to opt out based on moral/religious grounds?

      In my opinion, nobody’s employer is buying their employees birth control, unless they’re handing condoms out at the office. Your health insurance is part of your wages. It is no more accurate to say that your employer is buying you birth control if it’s included in your health coverage then for them to say that if you use the wages they pay you to buy it out of pocket.

        1. Anonymous*

          And 3a would be what religious beliefs are “allowed” for the employer to be exempt.

      2. Rayner*

        I loathe this concept in the right winger lingo that it’s a right of an employer to dictate what healthcare an employee should or not should not receive.

        I feel that the company should not be allowed to pick and choose what they offer.

        Birth control is, for women especially, important because it allows them to control their career paths. Having children is expensive, and can often delay or significantly impact the mother’s career so giving women access to choose birth control is good for them so they can choose when and how they’d like to have children. Likewise, birth control is often prescribed for medical conditions, not just for stopping babies from happening, and hurting those who use it for that reason by taking it away for ‘religious or moral’ reasons is unnecessary and cruel.

        If a company doesn’t want people using birth control, then they should sit down and stop interfering in the healthcare of their employees. A company’s focus should be on their own issues, not on what goes on inside an employee’s body.

        1. Anonymous*

          It’s not just allowing women a choice, in many other countries it’s been showed that having free/easy access to birth control and abortions helps women’s health by lowering fetal and maternal deaths, and in the case of abortions actually lowering the abortion rate by a significant amount.

          1. Rayner*

            Exactly. Women in the workforce is always significantly helped by giving them access to birth control. It improves poverty as well, education rates, and raises their income potential because guess what? You can work more and in a better place, and go to school for longer, and have the opportunity to earn more if you haven’t got a gaggle of children biting at your ankles all the time. Not to say that’s impossible if you have them but for most people, it helps not to.

            Birth control is also important for trans* people, and shouldn’t be ignored either.

            It’s an absolute no brainer. Giving people access to birth control improves their lives. :D

            1. Dan*

              There’s reasons why I want health care separated from my job. TBH, an employer telling me they won’t pay for some health care related service that is commonly available (and paid for) under other plans is actually worse than the government getting involved in my life. Particularly when it’s done on religious grounds when they don’t require you to be a practicing member of the faith to work there.

              We have separation of church and state, which means the government can’t deny me access to things on religious grounds. Employers shouldn’t either, unless I have to take a vow of that faith to work for them.

              1. fposte*

                There are *so* many bad consequences of health care being job-dependent in the US. (Plus, it’s just illogical.)

      3. A Teacher*

        Well see, I give them a list of topics and they frame a debate and create their own question. Then we debate philosophical chair style. For being 16-18, they did a pretty good job and the discussion while focused lead to a few related tangents. For high school students it was well done.

        1. HappyLurker*

          Kudos to you and your class. I just love to hear about young adults forming and discussing opinions in a creative and non judgemental way. It is wonderful to see people’s intelligence develop and grow.

      4. AndersonDarling*

        That is a brilliant perspective. I sure that is what I have been thinking about the situation but I haven’t been able to explain it!

    3. Zillah*

      Like Chuchundra said, though, that’s the wrong question to be asking. It’s not about whether employers should pay for birth control – it’s about whether employers should be able to dictate what medical services their employees have access to.

      The employers don’t “pay” for their employees’ birth control. A company is not charged a percentage of the health insurance that a given employee uses – they’re covering part of the cost of the insurance, period. That cost does not change depending on how an employee utilizes health insurance, and their employer isn’t entitled to know details about their use. The employer isn’t paying for birth control – they’re paying for health insurance. The insurance pays for part of the birth control, and the employee pays for the rest.

      The problem with setting birth control aside as its own special category has two major issues.

      First, it completely fails to recognize the fact that hormonal birth control/IUDs are a valid medical treatment that many, many women utilize for a wide variety of reasons. Barring women from medical services that are directly linked to their sex is both sexist and presumptuous, especially since most people in charge of those decisions are men.

      Second, it sets a precedent for allowing companies to decide what services they will allow their employees to access overall.

      How would you respond to a company who refused to cover insulin for people with type 2 diabetes, and justified it by saying it was the employees’ fault for being lazy?

      Or an employer who refused to cover cholesterol medication, because if people would just get off their couches they wouldn’t need it?

      Or an employer who refused to cover anti-depressants, because they believe that people just use depression as an excuse?

      Or, to take it to its logical conclusion, employers who refuse to provide health insurance at all because they think everyone has to accept their lot in life and just trust God?

      None of these things are acceptable. Why is birth control any different, and why is it so different that people are willing to set a precedent for all the things I listed out above?

      1. some1*

        All of this. And the moral grounds issue is crap, imo. You don’t hear about non-married men being denied Viagra.

    4. anon*

      I wonder, are there allowances for it if you don’t use it as birth control? There’s so many things it is prescribed for besides actual birth control

      1. Rayner*

        I would say it would be unlikely because how would you be able to tell if it was used for that or not? Make employees bring in a doctor’s note to staple to the insurance claim?!

        1. De Minimis*

          For me that would get too much into privacy issues…the employer should not have access to my health records.

        2. Stephanie*

          I think there is some way to classify how it’s used for insurance purposes. I got it for an off-label use once and I remember my doctor saying she’d make sure to note it was bring used for that (versus contraceptive reasons). She was like “Personally, I don’t care. It’s dumb that insurance will cover your baby, but not your birth control. Seems like it’d be cheaper for them to cover it, on questions asked.”

          1. De Minimis*

            Yes, there would be a different medical code, and that would affect the billing. But the employer would have no business knowing about that.

            People would be livid if employers tried to restrict how they spent their salary, yet some are okay with employers trying to restrict health benefits.

      2. Del*

        In my experience, no. I had health insurance through Anthem back before Obamacare went through, and even though I was prescribed birth control as treatment for a medical condition, my insurance refused to cover it. My doctor even went to bat for me, calling the insurance company and arguing with them at length, but they wouldn’t budge.

        1. TL*

          God, that sounds awful. I definitely need my bc to be a functional human being for 1/4th of every month.

      4. Zillah*

        The idea of allowing its use as long as the woman isn’t using it for birth control makes my skin crawl even more, tbh.

    5. Scott M*

      I think things would be much simpler if employers didn’t offer health insurance at all. We should all buy our health insurance outside our employer. Of course, that’s not the way the market is structured yet so it’s difficult to do that economically.

      1. Anonalicious*

        I actually really agree with this. I wish health insurance worked more like car insurance where there were not only minimum standards at the state and federal level, but companies were competing heavily to give me the best deal, and reward people who make healthy choices just like you reward people who drive safely.

        But health doesn’t work like that. You actually have a lot less control over your health than your car. Sure you can eat healthy, exercise, and all that, but you can still lose the genetic lottery and have high blood pressure, cancer, etc.

        What we really need is a more fundamental shift in how we think about these essential services, and begin to see that if everyone pays in and supports everyone else, AND we have the ability to make healthier choices, we all win. But our collective attitudes right now don’t support that kind of change.

      2. Emma*

        IIRC, employers started subsidizing health insurance for their employees when they were unable to provide raises/COL adjustments sometime in the early to mid 1900s. And then that just kinda…stuck.

        2. NylaW*

          Yup. It was also used as a perk to attract applicants during the boom periods when there were shortages of some in demand jobs. People started relying on it, I think to our detriment, and now it’s stuck. I really do wish the free market really could work as well for health insurance as some people seem to think it would, but insurance companies have become too much about profit and all they want is your premiums. The free market for health insurance is a joke, much like it is cable and internet providers and their localized monopolies.

          1. Ahh*

            I am SO glad I live in Australia. They are really messing up our country right now (attaching fees to ‘free’ healthcare is one move our new PM is trying to get way with) but knowing that regardless of employment if I’m sick/injured/having a baby I can’t front up to a hospital or bilk billing GP and not pay a cent. I have the option to pay for better service and the option to pay for health insurance, though that’s way outta my price range.

            I pay for medications, but ‘essentials’ like antibiotics, contraception and Viagra are capped at a pretty affordable rate it you fit the criteria (some versions of the pill are dearer unless you legitimately need them because you can’t tolerate the cheaper ones, and I think Viagra is full price unless it’s causing mental distress).

            Our private health isn’t very healthy- it costs a bomb and the caps and limits usually mean you pay out way more than you can possibly be reimbursed. But, you still have that choice, if you can afford it.

            My heart absolutely breaks for those who need health services and can’t access them.

  10. MJ*

    Oh, and on a non-work related note, hubby and I are looking at starting the IVF process by the end of the year (I have to be below 28 BMI for treatment, currently a little over that). Considering the option of paying for three cycles in advance, which means we get 70% of the cost back if all three cycles are unsuccessful.

    Exciting, and terrifying. Working through all the budgets, I’m finding it hard not to be resentful of people who don’t have to shell out the better part of $30k just to get pregnant, which I know is horrendously unfair.

    1. abankyteller*

      I don’t know, I think it’s okay to be resentful about that. I’m sorry it’s happening that way for you. =( I hope IVF works for you!

    2. Dan*

      I live in Washington DC and borrowed just shy of six figures to go to college and get my MS. If I had to pay for IVF on top of that, I’d sh!t my pants among other things.

      So, just for the sake of conversation, if you guys realized that you couldn’t rationally afford IVF, how would you feel if you never had kids? I look at the mountain of debt I have, and the bigger mountain it will take to save for a down payment and buy a house out here, and I don’t know how I’d pay for kids on top of all of that. (And that’s assuming normal conception.)

      1. MJ*

        We’re really lucky to live in New Zealand where study costs are nowhere near what they are in some other countries, and study loans are provided by the government and paid back out of your wages, interest-free, at a really reasonable rate.

        In all honesty, though, I don’t think not having kids is an option if there’s anything we can do about. However, everyone feels differently about this, obviously :)

          1. Nodumbunny*

            I won’t speak for MJ, but many people who are going through infertility get really tired of hearing this. They are aware that fostering or adopting are options, but they are options they’ve considered and decided aren’t for them at this time. For one thing, adopting in particular is often a path filled with as much heartache and disappointment as infertility. Infertility can be very painful, emotionally – for me, it was one of the most difficult things I’ve ever been through. Please don’t dismiss it with “well, you could adopt.” Stepping of my soapbox –

            MJ – good luck!!!

            1. fposte*

              And speaking as an adoptee, it’s not good for the kids to be just plugged in as if they were born to you; adoptive parents need to be able to deal with the fact that their kids have biological parents and influences that matter, too. That’s not something everybody’s up for.

          2. TL*

            Yeah and I think it’s a valid point that you may not be able to love an adopted/foster child like your biological child. Some people don’t see a difference, but some people do and it’s not fair to say one is the same as the other for everybody.

    3. Anonalicious*

      As someone who went through fertility issues, I felt the same way. And that’s okay. You are allowed to feel all those things, even though you might logically know it’s silly. Let yourself feel them so you can move on. Every stage of the process will have setbacks and gains. Feel how you’re going to feel, don’t berate yourself for not feeling or doing what you think you should do.

    5. VictoriaHR*

      I personally think it’s BS that your BMI has to be a certain range before they will help you. My BMI is 39 but I lift weights and am muscular. Dr’s don’t give a crap about that though. I wanted to donate my eggs and/or be a surrogate in my younger years, but wasn’t allowed to because of my weight. Hmm. 2 healthy pregnancies and 2 healthy deliveries, perfect recoveries, and happy healthy normal-weight children. Imagine that.

  11. Canadamber*

    Hey, so, some of you may remember that I was dating this guy from my work. WAS dating. I just broke up with him on Tuesday, and we still have to work together, so bleh.

    A) Should I ask the manager to tell him not to come through my till anyway? Because he wasn’t allowed to when we were dating, and just today he came through my till and paid for a drink in all small coins. Ugh. Jerk.

    B) Has anybody else ever had this situation?

    He works in the grocery department, and I work in cash, but the grocery guys do price checks and exchanges and whatnot for us cash folk, and I don’t want to have to deal with him showing up if he’s the only grocery guy in the store (at least, not right now).

    I’m going to try to switch shifts that I have with him for a while, and will probably update my availability so that I (hopefully) don’t get scheduled any more on Wednesdays and Thursdays, when he seems to usually work (he works all Thursday nights, I think, and I’ve been getting scheduled for all Thursdays lately as well). I need the Wednesdays off, anyway, because my tutor comes on Wednesdays, and there’s often a lot of assignments due on Fridays, so I want the Thursdays off as well for convenience. (I’m still in high school.)

    I, just… ugh. This situation really sucks. I regret dating a coworker, and I regret dating someone who was 6 years older than me. I guess now that I just have to deal with it… /rant

    1. Canadamber*

      I might look for another job anyway, because I kind of want more than 11 or 16.5 hours a week (which is all that this job can really give me), especially once the summer rolls around, but it’s going to be tough to do, especially since I would probably only be keeping it until the end of August, when I’m moving away for university. Thoughts???

      1. Pepper*

        Hate to say it, but I’d just probably suck it up…he sounds like a dork, paying all in coins, but the best way to deal with people like that is to behave as though you don’t care. The more you show he bothers you (switching shifts, asking your manager to get him to avoid you), the more you play into the drama and you feed his possible desire to be difficult – you’re showing him how easy it is to make you uncomfortable, so if he’s that kind of guy, he’ll just keep doing it.

        Imagine if he sees you happy, confident, looking him in the eye, laughing with colleagues….he’ll see he isn’t affecting you, and he’ll move on (probably, I don’t know just how much of a jerk he is).

        And then before you know it, you’ve moved on, and life is back on track.

        Good luck, keep your chin up.

        1. Lalou*

          I agree. Just try and treat him the same as the other grocery guys. If he tries to play up, keep showing him how little you care are and he’ll get bored with it. If you’re really bothered by being around him at the moment though – discreetly switching a few shifts for the next few weeks to give yourself some space from seeing him all the time would likely make you genuinely care even less about whatever games he may or may not be playing.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This. Do your job, be professional and demand the same from him.
            You both need/want your jobs, if nothing else maybe he will agree that you both have that in common and he will dial it back.

            Definitely hold your ground.

            I am surprised the bosses allow people to ring up BFs (former BFs)/family etc. I would think that if a person had an outside relationship with the cashier they would have to chose another line to pay for their stuff.
            You might try that angle, too. I have worked in places where a friend or family came in, I could not ring up their purchases for them.

      2. abankyteller*

        16.5 hours a week and you’re in high school? That sounds like plenty!

        If you’re university-bound you’re probably 17 or 18, which would make this guy 23 or 24. He needs to grow the hell up. Paying you in all small change, really? Ugh. His antics only reflect on him, not you. Keep your chin up.

      3. some1*

        I was a cashier when I was your age. A good manager understands that high school seniors probably don’t want to work there forever, so I don’t think your college plans (5-6 months away) will be a big deal.

        As for the coins thing, are you sure that he did it to annoy you, or is that just what he had to pay with? I think it’s easy to assume malice about it because the break-up is new right now.

        Even if he did do it to annoy you, on the list of things ex-BF’s will do to piss you off on purpose, in 10 years this will be peanuts. I’ve had (older) friends who can’t get their ex-BF to sign over titles to cars and move out of their house after break-ups.

    2. BCW*

      I mean, it depends. I don’t think just because you are mad at him that you can say that he can’t come to your register. Is he threatening or harassing you? If not, I think you just have to deal with it. You can’t just say you don’t like him anymore and expect your boss to keep you separated. Thats the risk you run when you date a co-worker.

    3. Graciosa*

      Yes, you do just have to deal with it. This is why you shouldn’t date co-workers (okay, that ship has sailed) but having done so, you have an obligation not to let your personal life cause any disruption in the work place.

      You need to behave as if you had never dated and have no particular feelings for or against him that would be different from the way you feel about any other co-worker.

      Do you switch shifts to avoid all your other co-workers (kind of a logistical impossibility unless there’s only one person on swing)? If not, you don’t switch shifts to avoid him.

      Do you ask other co-workers not to go through your lane? If not, you don’t ask him.

      Nor do you ask your manager to ask him, which is worse – that would be asking your manager to get involved in the fallout from your personal relationship which is a huge imposition, completely inappropriate, and shows that you do not understand how a professional behaves in the work place.

      Yes, this is one of those times when you need to just deal with it.

      1. some1*

        Right, dating a coworker is a mistake a lot of people make. If you find yourself being attracted to a coworker in the future, my advice is to ask questions about his old relationships as you guys get to know each other. You can never predict exactly how someone will act when/if you have to dump him, but if he claims all his exes are crazy or talks crap about his ex-GF’s, he would probably do teh same to you.

      3. FormerGroceryGal*

        Whew! As a former grocery store worker (years through HS and College), please remember this is small potatoes and you have plans. Stick to them. This person is a blip and will pass.

        I dated many people in my 5+ years at the grocery store and the one time I dated a total wack job and notified my management about it…they did nothing. My parents made me go to the local PD (who knew this person by name and sight – ugh) to report harassment. Do not give this person anything to fester on, hold your chin up and know you will be gone in 6 months.

        Good luck – my grocery days have left me with many excellent memories and friends. I always tell people to “have a nice day”. It’s strange, I have been gone for 20 years and I still say it.

  12. AspiringCatLady*

    Long time lurking, first time commenting, yay!

    So… I need advice about asking for a raise.

    I’m in a strange situation right now. I’m on a small, new-ish team in a large org. I’ve been in my role a little less than two years, but I’ve gotten to do a lot in that time and am very much considered the expert in my area. I’m not perfect by any means, but I’m definitely considered a high performer. I know my boss considers my role to be one that people stay in for about two years. She just left for maternity leave, and we have plans to talk about what’s next for me when she gets back. I was planning on asking for a raise at that point – hopefully as I transition into a new position, but even if not, I know I bring value to my team above my current compensation.

    My team is in the middle of a big project that has the eyes of senior management. As I mentioned, my boss is out on maternity leave. We knew she would be leaving! But when three member of my team resigned in a two week period just after she left… that was unexpected. The day the third person quit, about four of my co-workers told me I needed to ask for a raise right now. They’re afraid that the company’s going to pile work on me and never reward me if I don’t act now. There is no doubt I’ll be taking a LOT more responsibility within this project because everyone’s left. Thank goodness – people from other parts of the business have stepped in so I won’t be alone or doing anything super-far outside of my experience; but I will definitely be making decisions my boss or senior co-workers might have made before, driving the project in ways I’ve never had to before, communication with higher levels of management, and providing a base of knowledge and continuity within to a team of new and unfamiliar players – oh yeah, and then there’s our day to day work outside the project that’s I’m also managing as we transition to having less people. It’s a lot! And less than two years into my first career-ish job. People are telling me I have lots of leverage now, and they are right – if I left, both this project and day-to-day operations in my department would take a huge hit.

    So, there’s all that. But but but. The project will end. My boss will return. Then I won’t have this extra responsibility anymore. I’d just be back to day-to-day til the next one. And with my boss out, I’d have to go to her boss to ask for a raise… a VP who knows my name but it’s especially familiar with my work. But maybe that’s just nerves? I just… I don’t know. Am I better off waiting for my boss to come back and doing this as I’d originally planned, or acting now when I have maximum leverage even though it feels weird? Will I be worth as much when this project’s over? Or will I be worth more, because it will add to my record of accomplishments? I don’t know. Especially since I’d probably want to ask for a large-ish raise, which I think my manager would understand – but would it seem outlandish to not-familiar-with-me her boss? I’m nervous and torn and also adjusting to all this change. It’s been quite a week! What should I do??

    1. Lalou*

      Yikes! I’d be tempted to wait until your manager was back to bring up a pay rise. That way you will have already demonstrated your talents and impressed people and you’ll have a much stronger case. I can see why you would want to ask now because you have all of this responsibility now, but I’m sure if (when!) you do an awesome job at all of this you’ll be given more responsibility in future too.

      1. Jen RO*

        I agree. (Assuming you are in the US and your boss is out for 3 months and not a year+.)

    2. LadyB*

      If you are confident that you can make a case for your role in this project being at a higher level, at the least I would negotiate for an ‘acting up allowance’ for the duration of the project. Phrasing it as time limited, i.e. to the end of the project, will make it easier for the boss’s boss to recognise the additional responsibilities and decision making that you are taking on, but gives them a get out when your boss comes back.

      If all goes well, by the time your boss comes back, you should have proved yourself at the higher level and it should be easier for her to make the case to keep you at that level. And if not, then you have a higher salary to use in negotiation elsewhere.

      Good luck

    3. Chriama*

      Question: are you willing to do your job at the current salary until you find a new position? If the answer is a definite no, you should ask the VP right now. You run the risk of her saying no, but if you won’t tolerate this pay you have nothing to lose. Also, you are in a strong position. You totally have the VP over a barrel, but I bet she’d remember it later and resent you for it.

      If you’re ok with where you are now (it’s time for you to move on anyway, and you have the experience to show) for as long as it will take to find a new position, wait until your boss gets back and ask her then. I think Alison has mentioned before about doing strong work and using it as a basis for asking for a raise. If you do the project really well, your boss should pay you more because you’ve improved your skills and are positioned to take on even more projects. The subtext to that conversation is that you’ll take your newly acquired skills and experience to a company that’s willing to pay market rate for it.

      TL,DR; It depends on whether you’re willing to stay at this company at your current salary for as long as it takes you to find a new job.

  13. Ali*

    Love the timing! Now I don’t have to come out of my Zumba class tomorrow and fight with 300+ comments! (I’m a participant, though I do have a license to teach it.) I’m also up watching West Coast hockey (I’m out East) so I can type in before I go to bed.

    So I’m pretty excited right now, as I applied for two jobs this week that are actually outside of sports. Both were at colleges in my area. I know it’s probably hell of hard to get into a college for an open position (these are staff roles; I have no desire to get into academia and get a PhD), but several of my family members went to the one school and the other one just had a job open that matched my skill set. I responded to both after seeing them on Indeed.

    Second, I was just wondering this: Has anyone ever had a moment where you don’t feel you’ve had career success? By all accounts, I am supposed to feel successful. I have a job with a decent salary, benefits and I have been there for a while after starting as an unpaid intern. As I’ve said, I also work from home. So naturally people are jealous and tell me how lucky I am, but I don’t feel successful by any stretch. I think of things like how my manager is a few years younger than me and he’s already being tasked/trusted to manage a team (disorganized by his own admission though he may be), or how my writing on the side has not paid off at all. Other people at the site I write for to keep up my portfolio, even first-time writers, get social media promotion, articles in the newsletter, etc. My editor tells me I’m “solid” and I get compliments from my co-writers, but I never get the recognition others do or the job opportunities some of them have gotten as a result of their work. I can’t seem to get paid for my writing at all, and all people can do is tell me to write for a newspaper or a content farm. (I have no desire to do either.) Furthermore, at work itself, I am worried I’m not as smart as the coworkers on my team and that one day, my manager may figure out I have no business being in the job I do and want to let me go or demote me. He gives me good reviews, but I worry about this anyway. I even envy my best friend, as we are in the same volunteer organization and she has had success with them and gotten into the “in crowd.” She is the vice president and handles a lot of the social media/photography/PR stuff. Everyone always recognizes her for the work she does and says things like “You’re amazing!” and “You work so hard!” I ran for the board of the organization too, but lost because my friend told me I wasn’t as popular as the person who did get the position I ran for. I am jealous of the attention she gets, even though I will be one of the first to admit she puts a lot of effort into the organization.

    Being on the job market does have me a little more worried about this more than usual. In a market where only the best and brightest are getting jobs, I feel like I just don’t fit that category. I feel like I’m “good but not good enough” or that I’m not worthy of the jobs and opportunities my friends and colleagues receive. Anyone else feel this way?

      1. FRRibs*

        Don’t define personal success in life by what other do; someone is always smarter/stronger/better connections/luckier/richer/more artistic/etc. Define it by what you think is important, constantly re-access for reality and as you get older, different things could equate to success.

    2. Stephanie*

      Heh, “a moment”? More like all the moments. I had what I thought was a great idea career/job wise post school and found it was a horrible fit for me. Still trying to right the ship.

      It’s still a work in progress for me, but I just have to keep telling myself that I haven’t stumbled on the right thing for myself yet, but that I will and that it’s ok to be a career “late bloomer.” I also used the missteps to get a solid idea of what I DON’T want and what I won’t excel at. That helped a lot in guiding me.

    3. Joy*

      Some of this sounds like Imposter Syndrome (search this blog for some good discussions of it), but other parts sound like something I have been dealing with as well – not having an internal sense of what “success” and “achievement” really mean.

      External metrics are important to watch, so you know if you need to improve, what you should keep doing, etc. But you’ll do yourself a disfavor if you *only* rely on external signals, because you can always find someone who’s better than you, sometimes you’ll get overlooked even if you did something brilliant, and some times no one is going to be there to let you know how you’re doing.

      Finding your own sense of what achievement, improvement, and success really mean is a way to stay grounded when external feedback isn’t available, or when you’re tempted to make comparisons. It’s not easy, but I’m finding it really worthwhile. Sorry if this sounds cheesy, but it’s late here, and I’m typing on my phone!

    4. Jen RO*

      I was thinking about something similar this morning. I had been talking to a friend (and former coworker) about the job I applied to and about not hearing from them in weeks. She replied that they would be stupid to hire anyone else, because I was the best person on the team.

      Now, I agree with her – I was pretty damn good. However… I was only comparing myself to a few people, some of which were downright low performers, so that’s not saying much. My friend is not interested in the field as a whole, so while she is well-intentioned, she doesn’t really know what’s “out there”.

      On the other hand, I read a lot of professional forums/email lists/LinkedIn groups and there are *so* many people who have been doing this job since before I was even born! There is so much more to learn, and sometimes I’m afraid I never will. There are also significant parts of the job I’ve never really done – hell, it’s a *writing* job and I’ve mostly done editing! Now, I do love editing, but what if I end up in a job where I have to write everything from scratch and I’ll crash and burn?

      And so on… that’s what’s going on in my head nowadays. The good part is that I really do love my field and I enjoy learning new things. Maybe one day I’ll be like one of those experienced people…

      [Yesterday I did get an email from the company I am interviewing with. I’m not out of the running, the process is just dragging out.]

      1. Ali*

        I’m actually an editor right now! The jobs I’m applying for involve more writing, as I’m not looking to stay an editor forever, but I am just trying to tell myself that if it’s meant to be, it will be.

        One of the jobs I applied for had a closing date on the posting, and the other didn’t so I don’t know if they’re considering applicants as they come in or what is going on. But I am just trying to remember the advice here to “move on mentally.”

        1. Jen RO*

          Thing is, I used to be a copy editor, and I also know other copy editors who are much better than me… ugh!

          But editing rocks. It’s not even a job to me, it’s a compulsion.

    5. Sunflower*

      I feel this way all the time. I have a job but I’m starting to mentally lose it I’m so miserable. Combine that with being stressed about what I want to do with my life and the fact that what I want to do might not even matter because who knows if I can even get a job doing it- is just a lot of stress and causes a lot of overthinking.

      Job envy sometimes about the grass seeming greener on the other side. Some of my friends envy me because i get to travel to cool place and work in a hip field- a lot of people think I have the perfect job. But I’m miserable and get treated like a child at work. You are feeling jealous of people the same way they feel jealous of you- no one really knows what’s going on unless they are in the job them self.

      My issue is that I feel qualified to do this work (most of the time) but I feel like there is always someone better. When you’re competing with hundreds of people for one job, it’s hard to not get down on yourself.

      Try not to compare yourself to others. I have friends that are more successful than me because they came right out of college, went into a job and stayed and got promoted. However, some of them are not very happy in their jobs because they never took the time to look around and ask themselves if this is what they wanted to be doing. These are also things people don’t tend to talk about with others. I have a couple close friends that I’ve talked to about these things but for the most part, none of my friends have any idea how insecure and unhappy I am at my job.

      Keep applying for things and try to stay involved in things you like. I think it’s really cool that you teach and do Zumba! I’m kind of jealous- I am trying to get more involved in things I enjoy but I let the stress of ‘where is my life going’ overpower that sometimes. Try to look at all of this as a stepping stone to get to where you want to be eventually instead of the next position has to be the best one.

      1. Ali*

        I mostly do Zumba right now. It’s really tough to get an instructing job here, and since I’m still struggling with my weight, it can be hard feeling like I “belong” as an instructor. But before my job got crazy, the gym where I take classes was willing to let me sub, and the good thing about Zumba is that they seem welcoming to all backgrounds, shapes and sizes. One of the teachers at our gym is a guy in his 50s and the women who take his class LOVE him! I got my license back yesterday b/c it seemed like a no-brainer to go back to something where people support me and encourage my talent rather than expecting that I will work for free forever until I have “paid my dues.” So I have some hope!

        1. Poe*

          I am really late to this party, but PLEASE APPLY TO TEACH! I used to hire fitness instructors, and I loved hiring ones that were great teachers and not whippet-thin. People look at instructors as role models, and having a rotating cast of model-types is not my idea of a well-rounded staff. If you are healthy and fit, I don’t care if you aren’t a size 0. Our surveys of participants consistently showed that “imperfect” instructors were some of the most popular.

          1. Stephanie*

            Seconding this! As someone who’s overweight, I really appreciate “imperfect” instructors–it just makes them seem more human and relatable. Even if the instructor is a size 0, I really love it if they admit to an exercise being hard or eating pizza earlier in the day.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      When I was at another job, I was bent on “working my way up the ladder.” It wasn’t going to happen there, and it made me feel like I wasn’t succeeding. It was a corporate world with lots of backstabbing and fraudulent activities.
      Then I went to a non-profit where I found work I enjoy doing everyday, and the work I was doing had meaning. I earn enough to pay the bills and save a bit. I now understand that that is success (at least for me). Not worrying about bills, and being happy when I come home… in the end, I think that is all anyone needs. We just don’t know that is what we want. :)

    7. Not So NewReader*

      What is your definition of success?

      It can’t be besting someone else or even doing as good as someone else.
      Hint number two: Success is not a house/dog/2.5kids/spouse.

      You don’t feel you have hit success yet because you keep moving your own target. You will never get a bull’s eye that way. (Am referencing all the comparisions to others.)

      Picture yourself living somewhere that you do not know anyone. This removes all the comparisions. Next, picture yourself HAPPY there. What are you doing? What is absolutely important to you? What surprises you to realize it does not matter?

      If I compared myself to most people I know I would come up on the short side most times. But I am happy with my life. Which is really very odd considering my givens. See, we all have our own individual definition of success. And it changes over time, too, which is all okay.
      So. Mull it over, don’t answer here: What makes you feel proud of yourself?

  14. Pepper*

    I have a question about a colleage, following on from AAM’s post earlier in the week about complaining about a colleague.

    I’ve done all the recommended things, explaining clearly and rationally why my colleague is a disaster, and my manager knows about and acknowledges all the problems the colleague causes.

    We are about to go through a major restructure, where all jobs are contestable, but the new structure has the same two positions available that me and my colleague currently fill.

    Do I tell my boss that if she re-hires the nightmare colleague, I’m leaving? In other words, boss has perfect opportunity to get rid of acknowledged disaster zone, but knowing boss, she might just be useless enough to retain the disaster zone.

    Do I pull the ‘its her or me’ ultimatum? I know it sounds dramatic and OTT, but it really is that bad. I won’t go into the issues, but suffice to say there has been personal abuse, multiple serious mistakes, incredibly poor professionalism, and a host of other problems.

    I literally will not work with her any more, after the re-structure.

    Do I tell my boss that, in crystal clear terms?

    1. PEBCAK*

      No. You need to focus on the impact this is having on your job, and/or the impact it could have on your new role, i.e. “I’m not willing to take a new role where I’ll have to do X and Y,” where X and Y are things the coworker is supposed to be doing, or whatever. And you can only do, even this, if you are REALLY willing to walk.

      1. Pepper*

        Been there, done that, got the worthless t-shirt. This is kind of do-or-die time, nothing a rational boss would respond to has worked. I am job hunting, for obvious reasons.

        And I am willing to walk.

        I guess I’m just wondering if, given all that, anyone thinks a boss would actually pay any attention.

    2. Anon E Mouse*

      I would absolutely not give an ultimatum. It is very likely you will be the one out of a job at that point.

      I would start looking for another job now. If you don’t find anything and the boss gets rid of the co-worker, great! If the boss doesn’t get rid od the co-worker, you have a jump start on the job search.

      1. Pepper*

        Thanks – I’m not sure why you think I’d be the one out of a job?

        If Person A is really, genuinely useless, and has many other problems besides that, and Person B does 75% of the work, without the blow-ups, walk-outs, mistakes and multiple other issues, why would you get rid of Person B?

        Would a boss be so annoyed at the ‘her or me’ thing, that they would get rid of the productive person who is at the end of their tether?

        1. Rayner*

          Because if Person B puts an ultimatum on the table that the manager cannot fulfill – maybe the department needs two people, maybe someone upstairs likes this stupid coworker A senior to the manager, maybe the company needs time to cover paperwork and to find a suitable replacement quietly before they fire this person – and insists that they be prioritized before anything else, then the manager might not feel so warmly about it.

          It’s not as simple as “B doesn’t like A, get rid of B.”

        2. Colette*

          Because if you say “If you don’t do X, I’m going to leave” and they don’t do X, they will be expecting you to leave and may, in fact, help you out the door.

          There’s also a bit of an element of a temper tantrum, here. If they give in to this demand, what is next?

          If you’re sincere about it, and if you can phrase it regretfully (more “I am not happy in this situation so I will have to move on” than “you have to do what I say or I”ll leave”), you can say it – but you’d have to leave if they don’t do it.

        3. Brett*

          “Would a boss be so annoyed at the ‘her or me’ thing, that they would get rid of the productive person who is at the end of their tether?”
          Yes. Because “her or me” means that either way, they have to hire a new person to resolve office conflict. And the goal of firing one person and hiring a new person will be to resolve the conflict.
          Since you would be the one giving the ultimatum, you would be the one most likely to have a conflict with the new person, prompting another round of hiring and firing.

          (And even if you survived this round, if the next person doesn’t work out and you give another ultimatum, you might become the “difficult person”, even if you just had the bad luck of two bad co-workers.)

    3. Rayner*

      No.

      What you’re doing is telling your manager how to do her job, if you say that. And you’re pushing her into a position where she might have to let you go.

      You don’t know why they haven’t fired the coworker, and that’s the way it should be. It could just be that they’re waiting for this restructure, or they need to prepare documentation, or whatever. The point is, it’s not your business to interfere with hiring and firing.

      Also, unless you are a major major genius hotshot, it’s unlikely that telling your manager that you will not work with someone will endear you to her. From her perspective, you’re being obstructive, and difficult if you do that. What’s she supposed to do? Give you authority to hire and fire? Let you influence her decisions? Let one employee dictate the way department works?

      Don’t bother.

      Focus on you. Prepare your job seeking materials, start a soft search by just sending out feelers into the job world, and if the worst comes to the worst and the coworker is rehired, start actually searching to move away.

      You cannot control the manager. You can control your own career path.

      1. Pepper*

        All good points.

        I don’t live in a country where people can be fired at will, it is very hard to fire, so thats why she is still there. Why they haven’t done anything like put her on a performance improvement plan, I do not know, because that is an option.

        I guess I just have this dream that they will actually use this wonderful opportunity right in front of them to get rid of her, I’m afraid they won’t, and I was fantasising about giving them the nudge they need to suddenly see clearly what they need to do.

        But you’re right. Not my position.

        Thanks.

        1. Rayner*

          Like I said, the mysteries of the world of hiring and firing are often convoluted and deep. *shakes head* What makes sense in the common sense often doesn’t translate in the hiring, firing sense.

          *shakes head* Batty. Absolutely batty.

          On the other hand, this is a great opportunity for you to explore your market worth, and to find out if you do want to move. And what you might find out there. You may decide to take a new opportunity anyway, regardless of whether or not the co-worker is rehired. Spin it as a positive, not a tense waiting situation where one of the outcomes will make you scream, and it’ll definitely help your mindset to get through this.

          1. Pepper*

            True, I’ve seen some batty stuff in my life but this takes the cake. This person has made my life really really difficult, she has screamed and yelled at me, sent me abusive emails, hung up on people, stormed out of the office more times than I can count, comes in late, leaves early, makes mistakes on a daily basis, my manager knows all this, and yet she does…nothing.

            The sad thing is, without this person, this could be a good job – leaving aside the obviously useless manager. I was so excited when I got it, and now 15 months later I’m in hell.

            I’m looking for another job, but I don’t want to just jump into anything for the sake of it, I’d rather wait for an awesome job to come up. So I’m looking for how to make this one bearable.

            Maybe I can’t.

            1. Rayner*

              I would say that you can’t and realistically, you need to be working with the mindset of “I need to bail out of here soon” and find a job that matches your needs financially and culturally. Don’t worry about it being the perfect job, or the best job, or whatever. Just a job, that will let you survive, decompress from that stupid coworker, and then see where it leads you.

              Your manager won’t manage, and she’s allowing that *insert expletive* to run riot over the office and you. It won’t improve, and based on that new information, it’s highly likely that during this restructure, they may not lay this person off. Useless managers don’t tend to get un-useless after restructures for no reason.

              If the manager doesn’t manage, get out.

              1. Lacey*

                :-( Ugh, home truths. So hard to hear, but so…true.

                Thanks Rayner, you’re telling me things I need to listen to.

            2. Colette*

              As has often been pointed out, you don’t know that your manager is doing nothing. It wouldn’t be appropriate to share what she’s doing with you – just as it’s inappropriate for you to tell her how to manage.

              1. HappyLurker*

                Just sit back and watch. You know you are in the right place if your manager does take this opportunity to get rid of the dead weight. If they don’t then start looking pronto!

            3. Aisling*

              I would actually say that the issue here is with your manager. You have a horrible coworker that your manager will not manage. Even if this coworker is let go, you still have the same manager… who has shown she will not manage. It’s quite possible the next person hired will be great, but if that person isn’t, you’ll still have to deal with that, because your manager won’t manage. I’d look for another job.

            4. Ahh*

              If it’s that bad, then they aren’t a company you want to work for or they’d have dealt with it by now. What if you give the ultimatum and person two is just as bad? What if they don’t replace that person at all, but expect you to do the job of two people and constantly dress you down for not completing work?

              Find another job. Period.

            5. Poe*

              I totally worked with someone like that. Layoffs were coming up and our 2 positions were going to be turned into 1. I stupidly assumed she would be the one to go (I figured they’d be dying to get rid of her, since she was an acknowledged issue), so you can imagine my shock when I was the one let go.

    4. Jen RO*

      Are you really going to quit if they keep the coworker on? If you are 100% sure, then tell your manager. Not as an ultimatum, “it’s her or me” kinda thing – just as a heads up that you might not be around for very long. Then start looking for a job. If you find one fast – yay. If you don’t, you can see first hand what happens after the restructuring and, if coworker stays, at least you’re ahead in your job search.

      Some managers really don’t get how bad some employees are and how it’s wrecking morale for the others. I had a coworker like yours and it took more than a year for him to get laid off (I’m also in a country where firing someone is very difficult – it it hadn’t been for the restructuring, it would have taken even more time to get rid of him). Then, a year later, it took two people quitting (me included) before he realized that NO, we were not kidding when we said that we were tired of scrambling every day due to decreasing headcount and increasing responsibilities. After we left, boss suddenly managed to get 7!!! new positions approved, after telling us for a year that he couldn’t even get 2. Glad I’m out of there…

      1. Anon*

        I did this once. I had a unique situation where my manager was a long time friend of the CEO (small company) and she was terrible. She kept me from being able to do my work, be productive, help customers, etc. I had spoken with the CEO and he made it very clear that he trusted her and she was just that way and it wasn’t going to change. While I disagreed with his approach, he owns the company and therefore his decision. But I made it clear that I could not continue to work like this, not in a her or me way, but in a I want to be a great employee and do great things, but I have tried everything to make this relationship less toxic and I can’t do it anymore. They ended up moving me to work with another manager and I continued to have a lot of success with the company. She continued to drive people away and they continued to let that be okay. But once I moved I accepted that was how it was going to be and never brought it up again. My CEO did from time to time bring it up and I would very calmly tell him, you know how I feel about that and unless you are ready to do something, I would rather not discuss it. I had a great relationship with the CEO and could be this honest with him.

        Proceed with caution if you decide to go this route, and know that it might not work out this nicely. I did it because I was at a point that I had accepted this conversation might mean I have to search for a new job.

    5. EvilQueenRegina*

      I read that and thought that could have been me at my last job. I also had a coworker (who I call Philomena on here) who made lots of mistakes, some major, didn’t do much apart from corner people who didn’t want to be cornered and go into too much information about her ailments/ex husbands/entire life story, screamed at me down the phone and slammed it down because she blamed me for her getting into trouble for not calling in sick, picked fights with me about things that happened six months earlier.

      In the end it got to the point where she wasn’t speaking to me directly – it was all “I’m going to lunch now, M”, “Can I have next Tuesday off, M?”, “Who’s taken over dealing with John Doe now, M?” (M being the coworker who shared our office. Philomena did have to check with me about office cover too and I most likely knew who had the Doe case).

      It did get to the point where I started wondering how much longer I could continue to work with her and considered moving somewhere else. However I did know that Philomena had asked our manager about going part time from November, and allegedly our manager had said that if she could slot her in somewhere she would, so I decided to wait and see what happened there first. Before it got to the time when that would happen, a restructure was announced where we all had to apply for our own jobs and there was a possibility of people being moved to different teams. So I waited it out to see what would happen and in the end, Philomena was let go and is now to finish at the end of March (and I hope this remains the case, I have to admit – while I did move teams myself in the end, the work I do now is closely enough aligned with my old team that I have still had to have dealings with Philomena at some times.)

      I also live somewhere where it’s a lot more difficult to fire people than it appears to be in the US, and often wondered why Philomena wasn’t being performance managed (that was an option).

      I do agree with everyone else though that an ultimatum really isn’t likely to get you the result you’re hoping for.

  15. mango284*

    random non-urgent open thread appropriate question:

    If cover letters are so important (which I agree that they are), why do so many online applications not require them? So often they say “optional.” FWIW, I always still include one, but I’m wondering if they even bother looking at applications without a cover letter? Why wouldn’t they just make it required?

    1. PEBCAK*

      Because, if a cover letter sucks, it’s wasting my time, i.e. I’d rather get no cover letter than go to the trouble of opening a file that has one sentence in it (Dear hiring manager, attached is my resume, love, job-seeker). So when it says optional, I think it’s more like “either do it right or don’t do it at all.”

      1. Char*

        I think if they didn’t request for a cover letter, it’s better not to include one? It also hints at one’s ability to follow instructions. In this way, customizing your resume to the job would be important – the employer should be able to tell you’re a suitable candidate by looking at your resume.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          No, no, always include one! You’ll never be penalized (by anyone halfway sane) for including one, and it’s an opportunity to explain why you’d excel at the job, beyond what your resume shows. Don’t squander that chance!

          1. Pepper*

            There are industries and countries where that isn’t the case – my husband is in IT, and the other day there was actually a job ad he was looking at that said ‘extra points for not including a cover letter’. In his 20 years in the industry, hiring and applying, he has never, ever written or received a cover letter.

            Know your industry, at the end of the day.

            1. Jamie*

              That’s not a standard industry thing, so unless they say that I would include one anyway.

              I don’t think I’d be capable of not including one.

              Fun fact, because of being in IT there were bets before my first interview on 1. How much help I had and 2. if I had written any of it.

              It was apparently too well written to have been done by someone in IT. Breaking stereotypes one well worded letter at a time.

          2. Dan*

            Question for you… we know you’re a proponent of cover letters. Is your strong support for them just personal preference, or do you think most other managers like them as much as you do? (And by that, I mean *good* ones, not just “Dear HM, give me job, love job seeker” types.)

            For me, I’ve found that for the jobs I can write a compelling cover letter for, my resume stands out on its own, so the letter becomes obligatory, but useless (IMHO). And for jobs where I can’t write a compelling cover letter, my resume holds its own but by no means rises to the top.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Not just personal preference! Good hiring managers absolutely will read them. And I get so much mail from people who tell me that they started getting interviews once they changed their cover letters in the way we talked about here that I feel even more strongly about it. (Seriously, the letters I get on this are insane — like people saying they got zero calls for interviews for six months, changed their cover letters, and then got multiple interviews in two weeks. And I get at least a couple of these letters a week.) It’s truly powerful.

              (That doesn’t mean it works for every job, of course. Some managers just aren’t into them. But it will hugely change your overall odds, for most people.)

              1. Char*

                I’m one of the person you’re talking about. Although writing in the way you mentioned on this site makes the letter longer, it adds a more “human” element into it, I think. Also, I think the cover letter functions as a good summary, highlighting and putting relevant skills for the position together in one place. Although I didn’t receive interviews for ALL positions I applied, I’ve to say I received more than I ever had.

                But I noticed some online application only ask applicants to attach resume. So for those, I’ll normally not attach a cover letter.

              2. Chriama*

                Speaking of cover letters: would you be willing to post more examples? I know you haven’t really been thrilled about the response from commenters, but after seeing the 3 or 4 you posted here, I feel like I’m starting to get the hang of them. I know my cover letters aren’t great and I’m still struggling with them but seeing the concrete examples has really helped me understand your other posts on what a cover letter should do.

                1. TheSnarkyB*

                  Alison, even if you’re uncomfortable posting more CL examples (which I’d understand), how would you feel about an open thread (like yesterday’s “workplace setup” question) that asks people to share their favorite sections of our own CLs or comment on others’?

              3. Laura*

                I’ve always gotten a lot of interviews (no jobs unfortunately:( ) but I totally got more once I changed the cover letters to the way you suggested! For the interview I had this past Monday, the first thing the interviewer said was “I liked your cover letter”.

                Most jobs I apply for, probably 80%, specifically ask for a cover letter, so I wouldn’t think of not including one, but I love them for jobs where it isn’t obvious from my resume that I’d be a fit, but I could explain well in a cover letter.

              4. Elizabeth West*

                I’m pretty sure this is my problem with query letters; but when I changed my cover letters per this blog, I ended up with an amazing one that I’m convinced got my foot in the door for this job.

                Now if only I could get the queries half as good! :P

            2. Joey*

              I always look at résumés first and cover letters after that. After that a really good cover letter will probably get me excited, a lukewarm is the equivalent of no cover letter and a bad one will leave me pretty skeptical.

  16. Char*

    Hi everyone, I have two questions:

    – do you think I should send cold calling email cover letter to the executive director of a company that I’m interested in working for but is not hiring? There’s no HR department so I’m thinking of sending to the executive director. I think the ED manages and approves all the projects. It’s a really small firm specializing in event management. Is there any suggestion on how to write a captivating subject line that might increase the chance of getting my email read? Or simply be straight forward -e.g. seeking job opportunities with company X?

    – I’m a recent graduate and there are a few graudate trainee programs offered by companies opening up in July. I’m really interested in those but waiting till July to possibly get a job is a tad too long, and I might not get them. Plus, if I wait till then, I might lose out on opportunities now – which makes me kind of end up having nothing :(

    Any suggestions would be helpful! Thanks!

    1. kas*

      I’m a recent grad as well and I’ve sent quite a few “cold emails.”

      I’ve either sent them to their careers email address or whoever was listed on their site. I’ve received responses from a few thanking me for my interest and that they would contact me if a position does open up or they have sent me other similar positions to apply to. I probably could make my subject line a little more interesting so hopefully someone has a great one to share.

      I would say go for it but maybe others on here in high positions will advise otherwise.

      1. Char*

        Hey Kas! Thanks for sharing! A division manager, whom I previously worked for, told me it’s better to send cold call to the manager of a department you want to work for rather than HR because the former is the one who knows whether they need people or not. I was quite ambivalent about this position so would like to hear from others! I guess I should just send them, what’s worse could happen right? :)

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Sending a cold email to Google is pointless, but for smaller companies, why not?

      Not only do we get cold emails, we’ve hired from cold emails and we *like* getting cold emails. They are effective > job with us when the person has a particular reason for choosing our company to email (relevant experience, knowledge of the industry, etc.). We’re a little more structured now but back in the day we’d have hiring needs that we couldn’t even get to posting up jobs for so cold emails were a blessing. And we still take them seriously.

      For the love of all that is holy though, please do not call me on the phone. :) I am happy to look at your resume and letter on my own time, and then circulate to whomever else might be interested but do not call me on the phone.

      (I’m looking at *you* temp agency also!)

      1. Char*

        Hey! Thanks! Glad to hear that people are open to receiving cold emails. The company I’m sending to is pretty small (or what I’m assume) – it is a subsidary firm of something way larger in Germany.

        Any interesting/appealing cold email subject lines you’ve received?

        I do think calling is really extreme, even though I have heard people saying that calling reflects enthusiasm :S

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Nothing I can remember, sorry.

          I’d go for a salesy subject line myself but then I’m in sales and marketing so, take that all with a large grain of salt.

          Resume of [name], very interested in working for [company]

          Likely bad advice but it would work on me.

          1. en pointe*

            Honestly, I don’t even find this all that salesy. I think it’s quite to-the-point. Salesy to me would be something like

            “Professionalism, Experience, Passion, Trust – Jane Smith offers a wealth of unique skills to your organisation.”

            (To be clear, I’m not advocating this – it’s obviously cheesy and ridiculous. But I do work for someone who refers to herself as a “sales superstar”, and sends emails like this, so my experiences of what constitutes salesy are fairly over the top.)

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              omg I would laugh so hard.

              But it would be fun to circulate with the “here’s another one for my book” notation.

              I would also probably interview her just to find out if she was that hardcore in person.

      2. Brett*

        Actually, Google recruited me based off a cold email and application when they had no open positions for me. When I was in grad school, I sent it in on a whim. 6-12 months later, I picked up the phone and it was my first phone interview. I personally know several other people this happened to.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          HA! That’s excellent.

          I always use Google as my “well, we’re not Google” example but even Google does cold emails. That’s great.

    3. Anon*

      I guess I’m the outlier. No. Don’t cold call me for a job. Check online to see what we are hiring for, if anything and IF you are qualified apply.

    4. Laura*

      I got an internship once through a cold email at an organization that didn’t usually hire interns. I think for me , what was most effective was explaining why I wanted to work there. I happened to be really passionate about the organization, and had some involvement with their programs in highschool.

      My instinct is that phone calls are too much, because a phone call forces the employer to respond instantly, and email you’re giving them time to think about it on their time . Also they’re going to want to see your resume, so you might as well send it in first contact

      Mine was for a newspaper and I sent it to the editor in chief. I can’t remember the subject line I used, sorry!

  17. kas*

    Soo I’m going to Europe! Planned a trip for the end of the month to London and Paris and would really appreciate suggestions on places to go/eat/see etc. I feel like I’ve exhausted all of the online resources.

    I’m going with 2 friends and we’re all in our early 20’s so other than the obvious Eiffle Tower and what not anyone know of any fun/interesting things we could do?

    1. Char*

      Hi! It depends on what type of people you’re (e.g. love arts? Adventures?). I would recommend Rouen (1.5 hr from Paris by train). It’s a small and quiet town where you can meet French people who ain’t as busy as those in Paris. Beautiful view and architecture. From there you can also visit famous Monet’s garden. Since you’ll be in Paris, it’s easy to travel to southern Germany. Any cities in Germany are nice, I’ve only visited most in the South so can only say for that. Oh, for Paris, go to st. Michel area in Paris for more affordable meals. They have a full course meal (ala carte + salad + drink + dessert) at really affordable price. Recommend that you walk down the street and look at the menu before deciding. :) have fun!

      1. kas*

        I’m open to anything but my friends are more into adventure and the obvious sightseeing of major attractions. I’m hoping to get a museum visit or something in, nothing too historic though.

        Thank you for the suggestions!

        1. Char*

          Visit Lourve in Paris. It’s free on Sunday but go and queue really early (like at 9am). You gotten queue for a while. The museum is worth it. There’s everything for everyone. Oh, and museum Pompidou would be recall awesome too (great building, great display, and you get get a bird’s eye view of the Eiffel tower there). Would definitely recommend Pompidou over Louvre if I could choose one.

          1. GH*

            I’m told that the way around the huge line at the Louvre is to buy some kind of Museum Pass ahead of time. It’s only a little extra and saves huge amounts of time. I’ve not done it personally (I went to to Louvre in 1994 when the lines were shorter and haven’t gone back) but it sounds like good advice.

            I also recommend the Bateau Mouche trip down the Seine in Paris, I did it in 1982 and in 2012 and enjoyed it both times.

            In London, I highly recommend the docent tour of the Globe Theatre if they’re open at the time of your trip, and the Tate Modern is right nearby and afterwards you can walk across the bridge to St Paul’s cathedral. Quite a nice day all in.

            And I found the London Eye ride was great, far greater than I expected really. I got discount advance tickets via Amex or Visa that saved quite a few $$$ off the gate price.

            1. JustKatie*

              Yes, you can buy a multi-day pass that allows you to bypass the main line at the Louvre (which allows you access to many more museums and attractions either for free or for a reduced rate). You can order them online, get them at the Office du Tourisme, at any FNAC (electronics and media chain store), or at any of the participating museums/ monuments. See en dot parismuseumpass dot com. (I’m a former French teacher who has organized FAR too many Paris trips!)

        2. LMW*

          I just went to Paris in November! Loved it. I stayed in the 7th arr. (district) – I liked it because it was more residential and less touristy (near the Eiffel Tower, right off Rue Cler, which is adorable). I felt very safe and comfortable walking around in the dark alone. Comfy shoes! No matter what you end up doing, there are so many stairs and hard cobblestone streets. I ate a ridiculous amount food (even took cooking classes) and still wound up losing 5 lbs from all the walking. My favorite area to walk around was the Marais (and I almost skipped it — I only went because a lady in my cooking class suggested we go eat crepes together). And the Latin quarter seemed to be the happening young crowd, but was more touristy.
          If you are a light sleeper, bring ear plugs – Parisian walls are thin!
          I got the Museum pass, and it was worth it for me — I did at least two museums a day. But I am a die-hard museum fanatic and that was the main reason I went. Well, that and food. Art and food. If you aren’t into museums, then it might not be the best value for you. The Louvre is great for older art and ancient art (and I recommend going in through the Carousel entrance – if you are facing the museum and the pyramid, walk through the arch on the left and go around to the outside of the museum. No line at all), but if you are into the impressionists, go the Musee D’Orsay. It’s impressionists heaven. And if you aren’t museum people at all and just want to see one quickly, consider the Musee D’Orangerie. You pretty much go just to see one exhibit (although they have a small exhibit and a traveling exhibit in the basement) – Monet’s Nympheas (Waterlilies), which is just a stunning experience where you are surrounded by his gigantic paintings in two large galleries (and you can get through the whole museum in an hour).
          If you are considering going anywhere that is considered a garden attraction (Giverny or Versailles), make sure it is actually open and the garden is in bloom. Versailles was impressive for scale but it was the one thing I wish I’d done in season – all the statues were covered for winter, none of the fountains had water, no flowers, etc.
          If you guys are foodies, I highly recommend a cooking or market class. Oh, and a boat cruise is a good way to get your bearings and figure out what you actually want to go see — I was doubtful, but glad I did it.

          1. Chrissi*

            Ooh we stayed in the same area when I visited and I really, really loved it! We were only there for 3 days, so no museum pass for us, but we prefer walking around the neighborhoods anyway. We did go to the Musee D’Orsay, but it was under construction and some of their best paintings were in storage (all the Monet’s and Manet’s – argh). But it was still pretty cool. We took a river cruise at night. Just a cheap one that lasted about an hour. It was lovely.

    2. samaD*

      I’m a big fan of the ‘Hop-On Hop-Off’-type tours – every city I’ve been in that has one I’ve done it :)
      they give you a map (always useful) and the trip gives me a real sense of where things are in relation to where I am and what looks interesting enough to come back to. Best is if you can get one that’s live-narrated because they usually crack terrible jokes :)

      1. Jen RO*

        **Paris**
        * Make sure you check the zone you will be staying in. If you’re gonna use public transport a lot, a week pass (Navigo) may be worth it. It was around 30 EUR last time I was there (week pass + price of the actual card), for zones 1+2. You will need a passport-type photo for it. FYI zone 2 extends almost to the outskirts of the city, but if you want to go to La Defense you’ll need zone 3 too (or you can get off one stop early and walk, it’s not far). And always save your ticket! Some metro stops won’t let you exit unless you slide the ticket you used to get in; if the ticket is not valid in that zone, you won’t be able to exit.

        * The Latin Quarter is nice for having a drink in the evening. Lively and fun (though touristic). I also like Montmartre; if you go there, walk up to Sacre Coeur at least for the view. (You can also take the funicular with a regular bus ticket.)

        * Go see Notre Dame de Paris, but be warned that the queue to go up in the tower can be very long. I waited in line for ~2 hours a few years ago in April. I think the view from the tower is amazing, but it might not be worth it if you’re in a hurry.

        * Crepes! I looove crepes. 5 EUR should be the most you’d pay for them, and that’s at the base of the Eiffel tower.

        * I’m not a fan of museums, so the Louvre didn’t impress me at all.

        **London**
        * I don’t know if this is still valid, but a few years ago if you had an Oyster card you stopped being charged after you went over the price of a day pass. This doesn’t make much sense, so I’ll elaborate: say I charged my Oyster card with 10 pounds, and the price of a day pass was 6.50 pounds. Once the price of my trips hit 6.50, the following ones would be free on that day. I found it really cool, and when I was too tired to walk, but didn’t want to go back to the hotel yet, I just took a “free” trip on any bus, took the front spot on the upper floor a double decker and enjoyed the view.

        * I loved the Museum of Science and the Museum of Natural History, but there is no way you can see both in a day unless you have great stamina.

        * I took a hop-on, hop-off and it was really cool, I got to see a lot of things I couldn’t have during a short stay. And the guide was really funny!

        * If you’re a fan on musicals, definitely go see one. This was the highlight of my trip (I saw Avenue Q).

        * Covent Garden was one of my favorite places – more hippie-ish, I saw a few cool street performers there.

        Overall, in both cities, I just enjoy walking around the historic parts. The architecture is amazing!

          1. Jen RO*

            I’ve never been to a Madame Tussauds, despite being in cities that had them several times. It always seemed so expensive and I just couldn’t justify it for something I might or might not like.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              If you go to London, go to the original one. I have no interest in the copies after having been there. The Chamber of Horrors is pretty cool, hehe.

    3. Colette*

      I’ve been to the Tower of London almost every time I’ve been to London. (I always seem to go with people who haven’t seen it.) Definitely recommended if you’re interested in history.

      And I totally agree that hop-on, hop-off tours are a good way to combine transportation with a tour, although I think you probably learn a little more about the place on a regular tour.

      1. Sam*

        +1 on Tower of London. It’s historical, but it’s got some pretty gory history, so it’ll interest even non-history buffs.

        1. Colette*

          Yes, I’m by no means a history buff, and I’ve enjoyed it every time. They also have guided tours (that I believe are included) which definitely help.

          1. Sam*

            Oh yes, DEFINITELY take the guided tour. The beefeaters (is that what they called themselves) where fascinating. And at the time, I was 18 and my only goal when arriving in London was to get as drunk as possible.

            1. athek*

              +1 to the guided tour! It is excellent!!!
              Also, I LOVE Westminster Abbey, but I’m a history buff.

    4. AVP*

      For Paris- try David Lebovitz’s blog for food suggestions (www.davidlebovitz.com) – he’s an American pastry chef and food writer who relocated there years ago and writes a ton of reviews and interviews with local Parisian chefs and food-makers (in English). I’m sure he has an app or a guide or something as well that you could print out and look through.

      Also – if you want something cultural that’s lower-impact than the Louvre – the Musee D’Orsay is beautiful and you’ll recognize a lot of their works (the major Impressionists, mostly), but it only takes about an hour or two to get through. It’s in an amazing old train station so the building itself is an experience.

    5. JM*

      Paris:

      The view from Le Sacre Coeur is amazing; honestly, one of my favorite parts of the whole trip. We were there during the week and they’re happened to be a few school trips making it quite crowded, but so beautiful. If you want to go to a museum, obviously the Louvre is the most famous but I enjoyed Musee D’Orsay which is right on the Seine. If you can, see the Eiffel tower at sunset.

      This is my own personal preference but I loved Paris so much more than London. I went to Paris first and I think it tainted my image of London; if I had to do it again, I would do London first and Paris second.

      London:

      We did all your typical touristy stuff: Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Westminster Abbey, Hyde Park. We ate a few good pubs, I wish I could remember the name of them. I really liked the area by the London Eye and like Jen said all of the architecture is amazing!

    6. Natalie*

      If you don’t find it morbid, I really enjoyed the Catacombs in Paris. It’s cheap and pretty cool, although there is a fair bit of walking involved.

      1. Jen RO*

        And there might be a horrendous queue! I tried to see it on my last day there and the queue seemed to be 2+ hours, so I had to leave or I’d have missed my flight :(

    7. Anonymous*

      Cafe du Marche was good. It’s just a couple of blocks away from the Eiffel Tower.

      Get a Paris city pass. It’s a one time fee that is good for certain days and let’s you get into certain attractions. It paid for my Louvre entrance and Arc de Triomphe. I don’t believe it covers the Eiffel Tower though. You can climb the Arc though and get views of the city the tower doesn’t provide. You can order the pass from Stateside; just let your credit card company know before you hit the order button.

      See all of the typical city sites. Try to get Versailles in. If you’re a Disney fan, they have a nice Magic Kingdom to see at DisneyLand Paris.

      As for London, I wasn’t there long but long enough to see a few things. Listen to Big Ben at noon. And remember to look right first, left second crossing the street!

      Have fun. That’s the best advice I can give!

      1. LMW*

        I will also give a huge thumbs up from Cafe du Marche. It was right around the corner from my little hotel and I ate breakfast there several times.
        Also, second Covent Garden and Hyde Park. I love the British Museum, but as noted above – museum fanatic. It is really cool to see so many things that you learned about in school though!

    8. kas*

      Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions! Noting it all down so I can plan my days in Europe, definitely going to keep the long wait times in mind.

      Thanks again!!

  18. anonjustforthis*

    I’m glad I caught this. I hope to maybe get some opinions on this. My workplace has part time and full time workers. Most people are hired at part time and it takes years, 4-5 on average, to get full time hours and it’s usually not even in the same store, just another site within the same company. (Example, a former coworker just got full time after 8 years and her commute increased by 30 minutes because she had to go to another store.)

    I was hired part time in 2012 and have a good performance record. We hired another part time worker late last year and they gave her full time hours at our same store two months later when someone else left. No one asked me if I wanted full time hours. I still feel very betrayed by this. Everyone I talk to from my company at other stores say it isn’t fair and I should have been asked. I don’t orchestrate these conversations, what usually happens is people find out the new girl got full time already and they say to me, “oh, you didn’t want the full time hours?”

    I know management doesn’t owe their employees explanations for their behavior but I still feel like this sucks. I mentioned it to my manager after talking about something else with them and they said that they didn’t know I wanted full time (bull, because I’ve covered more than my own hours lots of times and expressly said I’d like as many hours as possible) and that “business can be very cold”. I have an opportunity to take a part time position at another store within my company with a different manager. Should I go?

    1. Dan*

      Yup, you go. Subordinates generally have a tough time getting their superiors to change their behavior or make different decisions. You have a better chance if you’re a rock star employee who they can’t afford to lose, but clearly that’s not the case here.

      They blew you off when you asked, they know it, and you know it. If they can’t be bothered enough to volunteer what it would take for you to get full time hours at your current store, don’t waste any time and run.

    2. bev*

      I went through the same situation though I was the new part-timer that got full-time. Sometime after I got one of my previous jobs, I realized I needed more money so I asked my supervisor for full-time. She said there was nothing at the moment but if it came up she would tell me. Months later, I got it. Then one day, I was talking to a colleague who had been there longer than I have but was part-time. She just made a quick comment saying, “why don’t they just give me (her) full-time already?” I just thought to myself, it’s probably because you never told them you are interested in a full-time position.

      Even though you have covered more than your own hours and told them you wanted more hours that is not the same as telling your managers that you are interested in a full-time position. For one thing, your supervisors don’t know what else is going on in your life. What if you had another part-time job or less than part-time job? Or doing something that was more like a contract job? They have no idea.

      If you like your current store and the people you work with, there is no point in transferring. If you do though, let your manager there know that you are interested in a full-time position.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would go. And tell the new manager you want FT as soon as possible, say it clearly. Find out from him first, if that is realistic for his store given his number of employees/seniority and so on.

      For whatever reason, you fell off the radar at your current store. (Maybe you wore purple socks one day and “everyone knows” do not wear purple socks. Ahhh- the joys of retail.)

  19. Poly, Esquire*

    I’ve been in a polyamorous relationship for most of the decade that my husband and I have been married. My other partner shares a house with us, all our in-laws know, and we regard this as our permanent family situation. We’ll probably adopt in a few more years.

    I’m starting my first job out of law school this fall with a big firm in flyover country. We’re in a blue state, and our city is very gay-friendly, but other than in a few big coastal cities (Boston, San Francisco, NYC, maybe a few more), poly families generally aren’t “out” publicly.

    No one at my firm knows about my other partner, but if I like the job and stay long-term, I don’t know how I want to handle this. It’s not an arena with a lot of role models to look to. We’re planning to be pretty open as parents – we don’t want to raise kids who feel they need to keep secrets for us or feel ashamed of their family – and I know the school systems around here aren’t going to make that a big deal (our community has quite a lot of poly families, it’s just that none are “out”).

    The firm I’m joining has a large percentage of lawyers with spouses and kids, even among the junior associates, and I just think it would feel awkward (and maybe painful) to have to hide or censor my family around my co-workers.

    I don’t know if I’m asking for advice or encouragement or what, but I wanted to throw this out there, because the Commentariat here is so fantastic. Anyone else poly and hiding that in the workplace? Any lawyers care to speak to this issue from the perspective of firm life? It’s worth noting that I am generally a pretty private person, so if I ultimately end up at a firm where people don’t talk about their families all the time, this could be a non-issue.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Dunno but I would love to see this as a plot line on the next season of “Suits”.

      If it were me, I wouldn’t explain a damn thing about my personal life, I’d act as if it was the most natural thing in the world since my choice would be natural to me.

      I don’t think you can show up to +1 events with a +2, though, so if your family is okay with your husband always being your +1 , the rest of everything else may take years for people to fully catch onto…like when you adopt and the family pictures on your desk are baby and three parents.

      If your family isn’t okay with your husband always being the +1, that will put you in the limelight a lot faster because you’re going to have to offer some explanation for changing partners at events, I would think.

      1. Poly, Esquire*

        We’re a pretty realistic set of people, and my husband will be my +1 at any firm events. I have long-term, not near-future concerns.

        Generally, I don’t explain a damn thing about my personal life, and life works well that way! Thanks for your comment – I always enjoy what you have to say here on AAM.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Thanks. :)

          Hopefully you will get some lawyer input because if you were operating in my world, you could manage to never say anything or be completely open on your second week and nothing bad would happen from either choice.

          Even though our company is family owned, by a reasonably conservative family, there’s always been a high tolerance for and acceptance of personal choice. We had openly gay employees who brought their partners to company events 25 years ago. And we’re in the suburbs! ;)

          I wouldn’t know what the law world is like though, other than, most of the the Suits people wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    2. Anonymous*

      I really could never imagine doing something like this. I think in a way this is selfish. What about your children? I could never do this to another person. Love is commitment. I love the show Sister Wives but honestly they sometimes seem a little sad.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Hey, this isn’t Dear Prudence. Poly, Esquire wasn’t asking for our opinion on her personal life choices, she asked a work question.

        I think your offering an opinion on her life choices is way out of line.

          1. JustKatie*

            “I really could never imagine doing something like this.”
            The nice thing is that you don’t have to. It’s not your life. Since they’re all consenting adults, OP isn’t “doing” this to anyone- they’re all on board and committed to each other. It just might not be the way you’d want to commit. Don’t make this about you.

            1. Anonymous*

              This isn’t about me. I would never do something this awful or stupid. This is about my opinion that some others may have also.

      2. Poly, Esquire*

        I am committed, and so are my partners – we’re committed to one another.

        Our child or children will have three committed parents who love them. Of course, many children with step-parents have three or more parents who love them and care for them. The difference here is just that our household isn’t split – we are one unit.

        Selfish? The “think of the children” argument you seem to be making wasn’t a good argument when it was used against gay parents (and still is used), it wasn’t a good argument when used against interracial parents, and it’s not a good argument against poly parents.

        I have not seen Sister Wives, but I can vouch that no one in my relationship is reluctant or unhappy. We aren’t in this relationship because of any religious beliefs, but only because we love each other – period.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          JMHO, but this is exactly what I wouldn’t tolerate if I were in your shoes. I’m not going to explain or defend my family choices to anybody.

          Which is where you end up deciding as a family how “out” you want to be at work. The more information you give people voluntarily, the more entitled they feel to chime in about what they think about your choices. How do you handle this conversation at work when it makes you want to throttle somebody?

          It’s none of their beeswax.

          1. Poly, Esquire*

            Eh, I’ll engage online, because I’ve found that, fairly often, commenters like Anonymous simply haven’t thought out their assumptions. In my nine years in this relationship, I’ve never explained myself to anyone offline.

            Of course, we’ve also been careful that no one finds out about our relationship unless we’re 99% sure they’ll be accepting, with the exception of telling our respective families.

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              Unfortunately, “Sister Wives” and “Big Love” haven’t done poly any favors because they perpetuate the traditional idea (not entirely unfounded) of poly being a means to subjugate women.

              I’m not poly but it gets exhausting even for me to have conversations where it’s like, no not that poly, we’re talking about the other poly.

              It would be very helpful for there to be a popular cultural show about the other poly. Going with Suits.

              1. Gjest*

                I think Sister Wives has done a disservice to the issue mainly because the guy (can’t remember his name) is such a douche. I don’t have any issue with their situation/choices, I just don’t like watching a such a tool.

              2. Poly, Esquire*

                I think there’s a great sitcom to be made, actually. Even More Modern Family?

                :-)

        2. Anon*

          Love is love is love. What works for someone won’t work for others. You go Glen Coco!

      3. Anonymous*

        I’m also seriously not getting the advice from AAM that sex workers shouldn’t be stigmatized but somehow polyamory is something that should be hidden under the rug.

        1. fposte*

          I’m not sure what you’re saying here–do you think Alison has expressed disapproval of being poly? I haven’t seen that. The only poly-related post I recall was the OP whose partner inappropriately asked for work stuff from the OP’s boss. (I also think “shouldn’t be stigmatized” isn’t at odds with “but currently is, so you’ll want to take care of how that impacts a workplace.”)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’m confused by this too! I don’t think any of it should be stigmatized, but since both are, I think people need to recognize that and proceed with caution.

            1. fposte*

              I wasn’t sure if “not getting” meant “not understanding” or “wasn’t receiving”–the comment could mean basically two completely opposite things. But the second one would seem like it had to be a response to something else that I didn’t see, so the first seemed likelier–and also incorrect.

      4. Anon E Mouse*

        Poly relationships are committed. She’s not going to adopt with complete strangers. Just because it’s not your cup of tea doesn’t mean it’s selfish.

      5. Sadsack*

        If you are interested in better understanding this, check out Dan Savage’s advice column, Savage Love.

        1. KLH*

          Especially since he had a convo with an attorney who specializes in legal polyamorous family stuctures and the law recently. The same woman popped up in an article in The Arlantic Online too. Diana Somebody.

          There’s also a blog by a woman in Minneapolis with a triad family including 2 small kids–it started as personal finance and was a very interesting look at their family structure. She had the family finance manager role and was making lots of long-term plans. I don’t remember what it was called though.

      6. some1*

        No, you’re right, Anonymous, I’m sure the kids they want to adopt would be much happier in foster care.

        2. Anonymous*

          You know Some1 I am thinking about children. Are you? Believe it or not behavior like this does affect children. They grow up having to hide things. Making references to foster children doesn’t change that. I am a mom and believe me I am thinking about the bigger picture.

          1. fposte*

            Children always grow up having to hide things, though–we just call it “being private” (or else we happily let them talk about the family budget and parents’ pubic hair all the time, which is dull); how much they have to hide poly parents will depend on where you’re growing up, just like how much they’re allowed to talk about Grammy’s drinking or Dad’s good friend the real estate lady or Mom’s politics.

            And ultimately this is one of those circular arguments that’s undone by acceptance: interracial relationships aren’t fair to the children because they won’t be accepted; gay parents aren’t fair to the children because they won’t be accepted. So accept them then.

      7. Anonymous*

        “I really could never imagine doing something like this”

        I have some marevelous news for you! You don’t have to do anything like this if you don’t want to. Isn’t that amazing? you get to decide what you liek to do, and then do it! And – here’s the really awesome part – OTHER PEOPLE get to do the same!

        I know, how perfect is that? People doing what works for them/not doing what doesn’t. Pretty great, huh?

        2. Anonymous*

          I have some marvelous news for you too. I have been in a committed marriage almost 32 years, raised three wonderful, responsible kids and to most people this is not acceptable. Sorry, that is the way it looks. Selfish like having affairs. A committed relationship should be between two people, not three, not four, not five. Children do need to not feel they have to hide things. This will affect children. You can try to justify it all you want but it doesn’t change things.

          1. Anonymous*

            If you were as happy with your life as you claim, you wouldn’t be trolling online to criticize other people.

            People like you, who focus on what others are doing and judge them and demonize them, are avoiding looking at the problems in their own life.

            Truly happy, content people don’t behave the way you’re behaving. And you can try and pretend that’s not true but it doesn’t change the fact that it is.

            2. Anonymous*

              Alison, I’m sorry. I didn’t intend to come on so strong with my viewpoints. I do not want to hurt anyone. I didn’t realize how strongly I was expressing my views. Thank you.

            3. Anonymous*

              I much thought, I don’t believe this blog is for me. If someone has an opini0n that is very conservative they are told their opini0n isn’t the place to comment here. So I don’t think I want to read or comment here any longer.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                The way I see it, this blog is my living room and I’m hosting you all here. I doubt that you would think it was okay to come into my home and insult my guests’ relationship choices. You might decide that my guests weren’t a group that you wanted to continue interacting with, and that would be your prerogative — but you’d presumably be polite to them while here.

        3. Stephanie*

          +1,000,000

          Don’t believe in polyamory? Then don’t get in a polyamorous relationship. Simple.

    3. FRRibs*

      I’m not, but two of my co-workers are poly (not sharing homes or children though). If anything, it’s led to some interesting conversations. Don’t worry about it until you have a better read on the culture and co-workers?

      1. Poly, Esquire*

        I’d love to hear how you learned about your co-workers’ situations and what industry you’re in! I’m guessing you aren’t in a southern state?

        1. FRRibs*

          Nope; I’m in New England, in an area that is about as openminded as cow country can get. Likewise my employer is publicly dedicated to supporting diversity.

          For the first person who told me about their lifestyle, it just came up in conversation over time. I’m known as a pretty open minded person and genuinely curious about everything, so at some point it organically flowed into the conversation. At the time when we first started talking about it he lived with his legal wife during the week and with his…I don’t know what you’d call it…on weekends, and his wife would be with hers. I was confused about his relationship thinking it simple infidelity, which is when we starte talking about poly.

          The second was a facebook friend and I commented in jest that he seemed to have a lot of pictures with one lady who was not his wife, and he told me about being poly. It wasn’t a big deal; it hadn’t touched on any of our conversations in the years we worked together so he hadn’t brought it up.

          I guess you could say then that if it isn’t relevant to the conversation, it needn’t be said. Personally, I see more people get grief when they use their identity as a political position rather than just being who they are. Not that you have to “hide” anything…just that who you are is an amagamation of attributes, not just a cartoon “(whatever)”, and if you simplify who you are to others, it allows them to simplify their opinion. I would hate to judge people on just one facet of who they are, because otherwise I would never talk to my daughter again for being a NY Yankees fan.

          On reflection, my first girlfriend was a member of a ring of boys and girls who were in some kind of group relationship. At the time I met her I was still pretty vanilla (altar boy, didn’t want to take sex ed, hadn’t kissed someone my age, etc), so it was a massive shock to the system. I refer to her jokingly as my “timeshare girlfriend” whenever I speak of it. While I’m still somewhat traditional I’ve met a lot of interesting people with relationship permutations and it wasn’t until I started online dating after my divorce that I learned just how many folks identified as nontraditional/other.

          1. Anonymous*

            “I’m in New England, in an area that is about as openminded as cow country can get”

            My guesses: Burlington VT or Northampton :)

    4. Lacey*

      Couple of pieces of advice:

      1. Ignore the comment from Anonymous, they are being judgmental and horrible.

      2. On the other hand, imagine that at least 50% of the people you will work with, will think this way. That might be more or less true, but lawyers, particularly older ones, can be pretty conservative. I certainly can’t imagine any lawyers I know publically living this way, because of the risk of judgment. Keep it to yourself until you are very, very certain that people can deal with it without it impacting on your career.

      1. Poly, Esquire*

        1. Too late! I can’t resist challenging what I see as bad arguments that malign something that is simply misunderstood (and often tarnished by association).

        2. All good points. I am certainly not planning on ever outing my family to anyone intentionally if they don’t seem like they would be accepting. I highly doubt I will even consider letting a co-worker find out within the first few years I work in law, regardless of how accepting they seem.

        I very much hope that I’ll see widespread tolerance (maybe even acceptance) of poly families within my lifetime, but I am prepared to work around hurdles in the meantime. If that eventually means lateraling to a smaller or more liberal city/job/etc., then that is probably what we’ll do.

      2. Dan*

        Truth be told, I’m all for people setting whatever boundaries they think they need to. If Anonymous isn’t comfortable with Poly, then that his/her choice. And I’m not so sure he/she needs to keep those opinions to themselves, anymore than Poly Esquire needs to keep her home life to herself at work. But Anonymous also will have to accept the consequences of those boundaries, particularly if they publicize them.

        In this case, those consequences will have little impact on Anonymous. But if he/she said that she didn’t want to work with , they have every right to voice those opinions, but will find their career prospects extremely limited.

        FWIW, I’m separated from a spouse whose family is a candidate for just about every Jerry Springer episode ever made, and she wouldn’t set boundaries with them. It is hard as hell to deal with, and was one factor that lead to our break up. So yeah, I got to deal with first hand a set of folk who made truly sh!tty decisions with their lives. “Shut up and MYOB” is easy advice to give out on the internet, but when you have to deal with it in real life, it’s much, much easier said than done.

        1. Anonymous*

          I don’t agree that MYOB is hard IRL when it comes to what strangers do with their lives.

          50 years ago (and I’m being generous, it’s probably a lot less time than that), an interracial couple walking down the street hand and hand would have literally been risking their lives in parts of our country because people didn’t want to keep their opinions to themselves.

          I do think that people need to keep their hurtful, judgemental opinions to themselves about stuff that has NO impact in their lives whatsoever. It literally changes nothing about my life if a stranger is in a straight relationship, a gay one, a poly one, etc.

          1. Dan*

            The problem is, we live in a country where we are free to *speak* out about things we don’t agree with. We are not free to commit crimes against other people who do things we don’t agree with.

            People have the right to do what they want to do in front of me. I have the right to tell them I don’t like it. If you don’t want to hear my opinion, don’t do or discuss that thing in front of me. If it’s not my business, don’t make it mine.

            1. Poly, Esquire*

              There are rights and then there are “shoulds” I think. Do you have the right to tell a gay couple sitting next to you at a restaurant that you saw them holding hands and you find that disgusting? Yes. Should you tell them? No.

              Of course that doesn’t stop some people, but it doesn’t reflect well on them.

              The more stigmatized something is, the more likely it is that complete strangers will succumb to their urges to offer unsolicited comments. In the US, people who are overweight and obese get unsolicited rude comments frequently, for example. The fact that people have a right to make such comments doesn’t mean that it’s right to do so.

            2. Anonymous*

              “If you don’t want to hear my opinion, don’t do or discuss that thing in front of me.”

              Under your theory, any modicum of polite society falls apart. Using the example of the interacial couple, by going out in public, they are inviting the verbal abuse of anyone who sees them because they are “doing that thing” in front of them.

              Who gives a shit whether they have the “right” to do it – society cannot function if all of us verbally unload on any stranger we see in public doing something we don’t like.

            3. Anonymous*

              Dan, I agree with you. Everyone has their opinion. If Poly, Esquire thinks just because she thinks this is so great the majority of people will, she is wrong. Of course, she can do as she pleases. But, you cannot be committed to one person the way a marriage is and have lovers or whatever they are on the side. That is not love. People are people and yes there are conservatives out there that think like I do. We have our right to our opinion just as she thinks she does. If she is vocal on this some may think this is odd like I do. That is my opinion, my right, same as she has.

              1. PJ*

                “But, you cannot be committed to one person the way a marriage is and have lovers or whatever they are on the side. That is not love.”

                Shouldn’t you preface that with “In my opinion…”

                Because in Poly’s world, the relationship she shares with her two spouses appears to be, judging from her writing, most definitely love. She does not have a lover on the side. She has two commited spouses. Not your cup of tea, I get that. But there is no need to label her family as “not committed” just because it looks different than yours.

                1. Anonymous*

                  Sorry my dear that isn’t marriage. Marriage is between two people last I heard. That is just a live-in lover. For shame.

                3. Stephanie*

                  Whoa, Anonymous, that same argument about “hurting families” has been used to justify banning same-sex marriages, interracial marriages, and second marriages (and divorces).

                  It sounds like what Poly, Esquire has works for her and that everyone involved is a consenting adult. It’s totally valid that that’s an arrangement you might not subscribe to, but there’s no reason to claim it damages families. There are all kinds of familial arrangements outside a two-parent nuclear family (siblings raising siblings, single parents, grandparents, etc) that produce well-adjusted children.

                4. fposte*

                  It’s not illegal to do this, actually. It’s illegal to marry more than one person, but it’s perfectly legal (in most states and federally, anyway) for me to have a household of several devoted men who all love me and we all go out together and maybe they’ll do all my laundry and I’m getting a little overinvested in this fantasy now.

                  And marrying more than one person isn’t illegal because of families; countries where it is legal to have more than one spouse have families too. It’s just the way culture, religion, and property transmission have been handled in some regions that prioritizes monogamy. The property thing is already something law is running to catch up with, given surrogacy, gay parents, and the possibility of genetic chimera, so I don’t see any reason why polyfamilial inheritance would be such a big challenge to surmount at that point.

                6. Anonymous*

                  “that same argument about “hurting families” has been used to justify banning same-sex marriages, interracial marriages, and second marriages (and divorces)”.

                  I assure the other Anonymous is 100% against gay marriage, secretly (wouldn’tadmit it here) against interracial marriage, but ok with divorce.

                7. Anonymous*

                  In reply to the other Anonymous, yes I am against gay marriage, no not against interracial marriage at all and understand divorce happens. I know divorce hurts families. My heart goes out to those who have had to go through this. I am not going to suppose something the Bible is against and to me seems strange anyway. But, that isn’t what we were talking about. We were talking about trying to have your cake and eat it to. I think to have 2 or more men in that kind of relationship is cheating on your real husband.

                8. Anonymous*

                  The values, principles and morals of society have went down so far that now others are wanting anything goes. Well, for me I still believe in the Bible and I still believe your actions hurt other people. The marriage relationship is sacred or should be. It is not a game. To me it is a relationship between two people that love each other and choose to live their lives together. Man and woman. Like the Bible says. This poster can certainly do whatever she pleases but if others find out some will have my viewpoint. There will always be people that want to justify wrong actions. You cannot have the strong marriage you want and be doing things with someone else intended for your husband or wife only. The commitment isn’t there no matter what this poster says. I have been married almost 32 years and I am speaking from experience.

              2. Corporate Attorney*

                Erm, monogamous marriage has by no means been the rule through history (see: King David), nor is it universally the case today (see: millions of Muslim families throughout the world). So maybe marriage is “between two people the last [you] heard,” but I’m guessing that the last weren’t paying attention during the Old Testament readings last Sunday.

              3. Colette*

                You’re allowed to have your opinion. You’re just not allowed to expect everyone to agree with you or to live their lives in a way you’re happy with.

      3. Anonymous*

        Lacey, I am a wife and mother and I can assure you that more than 50% of people that are conservative will think like I do. I would be ashamed to tell anyone I was married and had a guy on the side.

        1. PJ*

          “A guy on the side?” This is a discussion about polyamory, in which three people are committed to each other to create one family. This is not about “a guy on the side.”

          2. Anonymous*

            Have you ever heard of marriage vows? Cleave only to him or her as long as you both shall live. This is not a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. It is cheating.

            1. PJ*

              You are assuming that the beliefs you hold are the only viable ones. And you are assuming that everyone took the same vows as you, and anyone who breaks YOUR vows is “cheating.”

              Your definition of “marriage” is suspect also — not too long ago (and still is in many places) the definition required that the two parties involved be of the opposite gender.

              Open your mind. There are other people in the world whose opinions, lifestyles, experiences, beliefs and choices differ from yours. That doesn’t make them wrong.

              1. Anonymous*

                I still believe marriage is between a woman and man. So did most people until recently. My mind is open, but closed to things that are wrong in the eyes of God.

                1. Corporate Attorney*

                  Re: the eyes of God and what most people believed until recently, please review the story of Jacob, the story of Moses, the story of David…shall I go on?

            2. fposte*

              Ah. You’re arguing from a specific religious perspective. I think that’s a different matter than child welfare, then–if it’s wrong to you because of Scripture, that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean it’s a breach of a child’s welfare to let it have bacon.

              1. Anonymous*

                Yes fposte from a moral and religious principle. I believe God is for families and this way of life isn’t in the best interest of anyone. That includes children. You have to have a moral compass in life. There is a right and wrong. We all know it deep inside. Some people just try to make wrong right but it will never work.

                1. FRRibs*

                  I will be honest; _I_ find it the idea of balancing multiple partners daunting; it’s difficult enough just trying to be happy with one partner. But just because that is so with me, does not mean people are incapable of having such relationships. Poly Esq. said she has been in this committed relationship for nine years now. US census data from 2001 indicated that on in five marriages end in divorce, and only one in four marriages last 15 years or more, Nine years is longer than between 55-60% of marriages, so I would say yes, it can work.

                  As for the religious angle, there are a few examples of larger-than-two marriages, King David and his seven (possibly more) wives being a good example.

                  As a person of faith, I try to worship and emulate when I think is “right” in my thoughts and actions. I assume the best way to improve my relationship with the divine is not to waste energy judging others, but focusing on what I have control over ie: myself.

                  I don’t say it to be snarky, but if one has time to grade others on their righteousness, then they must feel they have already attained perfect grace. That, of course, is presumptuous.

                2. Anonymous*

                  To FRRibs. No, I do not judge anyone. Not my place. That job belongs to God. I do believe that thou shall not commit adultry is in the Bible though. Just stating my opinion like everyone else here.

    5. Anne*

      Hi Poly, Esquire – I’m poly too and yes, I’m hiding it in the workplace. My husband and I have been living together for a few years now, and each have other relationships, including a boyfriend of mine who I’ve been dating for longer than my husband. It’s very stable, but… still impossible to explain to some folks. When we have kids, we’ll be open with them about it. I have so much sympathy.

      My rationale so far has been that even if my co-workers would be supportive (and I think at least some of them would), all it takes is one manager who reacts like Anonymous above, you know? Even if it isn’t damaging in a concrete “I can’t give a promotion to that sicko” way, it has the potential to make things uncomfortable.

      The flipside is that, as you say, it’s pretty awkward to have to hide/censor major parts of your life around your co-workers. You might decide that for you, that’s a bigger consideration, and I think that would be completely understandable. My husband works in a much more liberal field and workplace than I do (I’m accounting, he’s IT development), and after putting out some subtle feelers to co-workers he was close with, discovered that there are actually four or five people in his department who are poly. Now they come to the local poly meets. That can happen!

      I don’t know if this is really helpful. I guess what I’m saying is just to do what feels best to you, and realize that either way there are potential ramifications for the some aspect of your life. Upside is that poly folks have usually got a pretty good handle on foreseeing and handling potential social weirdness. :)

      So much moral support for you.

      1. Loquaciousaych*

        My parents are poly and their usual explanation is something like this:

        (using fake names to protect them etc)

        LadyK and SirT are married. MisterS is their housemate, who is dating MissC.

        At first, it was after knowing an individual person that any of them revealed their situation. As they have gotten older, it has become less and less of something they hide.

        As the child of poly parents, having extra adults involved in and responsible for loving, caring for, setting examples and being supportive of a young person is NOT selfish. It can be truly caring. It’s a strange variation of “it takes a village”, but in my experience, it leads to healthy relationships and ability to interact with adults, as well as giving kids space to talk to adults that are NOT THEIR PARENTS about “important stuff”.

        It *IS* weird at times, and there’s no way around it. Having 6-8 parents even outside of divorce, remarriage etc can get overly complicated and make you feel like you are ALWAYS being watched. But it’s downright awesome to get that many extra birthday wishes, hugs, pieces of advice and more.

        Good luck.

        1. Anne*

          I can’t thank you enough for posting this. It is really reassuring for the future. I kind of assumed it would be possible for it to work out that way, and it seems to be working well in one or two poly families I know, but it is fantastic to hear from someone who has grown up in that environment and doesn’t have any reason to tell me how great it is other than it being great.

          Thank you.

          1. Poly, Esquire*

            +1000

            Thank you so much for sharing your experience, Loquatiousaych. And thanks for your encouragement. I suspect that, like your parents, we will be less guarded as we get older.

      2. Poly, Esquire*

        Thanks, Anne. I’m with you on the reasoning (*sigh*), but I don’t know how my priorities will change once we’re parents. At least I have several years to figure that out!

    6. Brett*

      Which flyover state? The blue flyover states, especially the college towns, can make San Francisco look like Provo. Depending on location, it might not be as big of a deal as you think.

      2. Poly, Esquire*

        I’d rather not say, just in case someone I know is reading these comments, but it’s about Madison/Ann Arbor/Austin levels of liberal, maybe one step down from them. Like I said before, I know the school systems here won’t blink if we are open about it down the road, but law (even in liberal cities) is just a different ball game.

        1. Brett*

          That does sound like a tough call. If it was more like liberal Iowa or Minnesota, I would think that even with law you would likely be okay. But if it is on tier with less liberal but blue cities like those… although, you could still probably directly translate your experiences from the coasts, since those cities you named are decided more socially liberal than the coastal cities you have dealt with.

    7. MK*

      I’ve worked at a national LGBT advocacy organization in the past as a public policy attorney and met several people who were in polyamorous relationships. Since most LGBT organizations are progressive, my coworkers felt safe to be as open as they wanted about their personal lives. I think whether or not you want to be open about being in a polyamorous relationship depends on what your workplace is like and how transparent you want to be irregardless of what others think.

      1. Poly, Esquire*

        Yes! I think it’s possible that I might eventually seek a job with a liberal cause-related organization, like the ACLU or the FFRF. These would definitely be safer environments for people to find out that I have a poly family.

  20. Chocolate Teapot*

    It depends on what you are interested on doing/seeing in Paris. I quite like walking around the Rue du Faubourg St Honore and looking in the shop windows. The open top hop-on hop-off bus tours are a good way of getting your bearings too.

    And from experience, if you are planning on visiting Versailles, be prepared for a massive queue!

    1. Stephanie*

      Oh, Alison. That was the last thing I heard before heading to bed. I hope I don’t have a dream involving that laugh.

  22. Stephanie*

    Suggestions on moving on from an interview? Had a final interview last week that went well, but I know the job’s not mine until I get a written offer. I’ve definitely applied to other things since then, but I’m having difficulty shaking the “Eeeeee! This could finally be the one!” feeling.

    1. Rayner*

      Write down the EEEEEE! feelings, and put them in a drawer or shred them, if you like symbolic acts.

      The other thing I would do is if you have a spreadsheet of interviews, highlight it in a different colour so you know that you’re most interested in that one.

      And then just tell yourself firmly that the position is not in the bag until it’s in the bag, and that you have to find another “this is the one!” job while you’re looking. Don’t let yourself relax for a minute or get complacent about job searching or you’ll get really really down if this job doesn’t come through.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I am a horrible downer, but pretend you didn’t get it. Seriously. It can be a nice surprise if you did, but meanwhile you get to move on, not agonize, focus on other openings, and not be devastated if it turns out you didn’t get it for real.

      1. Stephanie*

        Not a horrible downer at all! This is what I keep telling myself. Just need to really believe it and use it to light a fire under my ass. Helps to see other people say it.

      2. Jen RO*

        Not related to interviews specifically, but I love that you’re giving out this kind of advice. This has always been my approach (to everything) and I kept getting told that I’m too negative… I just see it as self-protection.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

      I’m no help. I ‘m excited for you.

      Listen to Alison instead.

    4. In progress*

      I’m excited for you! But yes unfortunately putting too much on it can lead to major disappointment. I’ve even struggled with having that disappointment stall my job search, since it feels like “why even bother?”
      Best bet? Find other jobs to be excited about.

    5. Graciosa*

      I completely understand, and even agree with Alison’s comment, but I’m going to give you a somewhat different perspective.

      Pretend you KNOW you didn’t get it for purposes of continuing your job search and managing your finances.

      Pretend you KNOW you got it for all other purposes.

      The number of things I could have taken care of (but didn’t) while I was out of work still makes me wince. I was very focused on my job search – and keeping my spirits up – and worrying about my finances – so I never seemed to get around to cleaning out the garage, putting my wardrobe in order, weeding out my bookshelves, figuring out what was on my old unlabeled VCR tapes, touching up the paint in the laundry room, etc.

      Completely understandable, of course, and I told myself there would be time after I landed a job before it actually started – which there was, but much less than expected because I wanted to start right away.

      So my advice would be to pretend you got it and have to start on Monday for purposes of doing all the things you don’t have time to do when you’re working hard at a new job.

      – Which I really hope you get. :-)

    6. ChristineSW*

      Completely agree with Alison, but I’m keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you anyway!

    7. Laura*

      I totally have that same problem – and have been rejected several times after I’ve had those feelings and been in the top 2-3 candidates, which made it worse. In fact I am currently having those feelings about an interview I had on Monday. I keep trying to tell myself I didn’t get it, but my brain will not cooperate and I can’t stop myself but thinking that I could. I’ve been rejected after being in teh top 5 or less so many times, yet I am still an eternal optimist for some strange reason. Don’t know how to help myself!

      The fact that I found a really promising job at somewhere I used to work yesterday helped me feel a bit better.

  23. Rayner*

    I’m having the issue that when I return home from Finland, it’s going to be a while before I can find a job again – like, months, it’s looking at the moment. It’s frustrating, but at the moment, I can’t apply for any of the jobs that I do find because they want people to start immediately and they pop up in cycles. My field of work is having a squeeze time again. D:

    That said, I did retail at a job for two and a half years about three years ago while going through another tough time, and wouldn’t mind going back there to earn some money while I wait for this stupid job market to come back again. I didn’t leave on a bad note – I had to go because of moving house, and was sorely sad to say goodbye.

    My question is, how do I approach my old manager? Or even do I? There’s no email address so it’s phone or in person only and idk what on earth to say for either! “Hi, I want a job, give me a job, I need money to live and to feed myself?”

    Help!

    1. Chris*

      I work retail, and we hire people all the time that are only going to be available for short periods for whatever reason. It never is a huge deal and you have the perk of being already “trained”, having worked there before.

      I would just call the number, ask if so and so still works there and explain that you are moving back to the area and are looking for work, and didn’t know if they had anything available currently. I wouldn’t tell them you are job searching beyond that because you could be there awhile. Just explain when the time comes that you found an opportunity that you couldn’t pass up and that you are ever so thankful to them.

    2. Char*

      Perhaps you can just make a call saying you’re back in Finland and ask if he/she has any time for coffee and catch up? Perhaps you can tell him you are looking for a job and if there’s any opportunities at the previous company via phone, or you can keep till you all meet up. That’s how I would approach the situation. Even if there’s no position available, meeting is a form of networking which might lead to recommendations and such.

    3. IronMaiden*

      I think you have nothing to lose by reaching out to your retail contac, especially as you left on good terms. The worst they can say is no. Make the call and good luck.

    4. Elsajeni*

      “Hi, Manager, how nice to see you again! Yes, I’ve just moved back to the area — very exciting! And, actually, I’m looking for work, and I wondered if you might be hiring currently? You are? Awesome!” At which point they’ll probably tell you how to proceed — whether you need to go through the formal application process again, or if they can just rehire you and put you back on the schedule with no fuss, or what.

      (I went back to a retail job that I’d left to go to graduate school, and it went about like this — I didn’t get to speak to my manager in person, but I spoke to the employees who were on the floor at the time, dropped off my application with someone I’d worked with before, and the manager called like 6 hours later to say, “Awesome, you’re re-hired, can you start tomorrow?”)

    2. Rayner*

      Trawl through the archives of AAM and make one resolution based on the article(s) that you read.

      Ex: “I will not be the annoying coworker who steals other people’s lunches. I will buy my own.”

    3. FRRibs*

      Trawl wherever you purchase your reading materials and buy a book by an author you haven’t read yet. I recommend Richard Russo (any book, but Empire Falls would be a good introduction) or John Irving (Last Night in Twisted River) if you haven’t read either of them. If you like business shennanigans in historical settings, David Liss would be a good choice.

      If you’re in an area where it’s night, bundle up as warm as you can and go outside and look at the stars…they’re always crisper when it’s cold out.

      Click on random article on Wikipedia and start reading.

      If you haven’t watched them, pick the first episode of Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Shield, Justified, Sopranos, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Lost, or some other top tier drama series that you haven’t seen yet, watch it, and decide if you liked it enough to watch the rest of the series.

      Make a list of dishes you have never cooked, and plan out a meal that requires preparation; send invitations to friends to make it together.

      Make lists of things you can do in an hour, and pick the one you want to do the most.

    6. Anne*

      Circulate around the office stealing bits of hair from coworkers so you can cast spells on them later.

  25. en pointe*

    Cheers, this timing is a nice surprise on a Friday night.

    I was one of the OP’s on a short answer post a few weeks ago, asking about how / whether to tell my boss I’m going to be shaving my head for a cancer charity campaign. This isn’t really much of an update, so I thought I’d just post it here quickly, in case anyone is interested.

    Basically, being the wimp that I am, I kind of just sat on this for a few weeks. But the event is coming up soon, so a couple of days ago, I brought it up with my boss, using pretty much the phrasing suggested by Alison. I needn’t have worried because she was fine with it, mentioning no negative concerns. Also, while we have a no-solicitation policy, the company itself is going to sponsor me (my boss is the owner), something that I was not expecting.

    Thank you to both Alison and the commenters for your insights. I found the advice offered valuable, and the related discussions that went on (about reasonable attitudes and expectations toward conventional appearance in the workplace, and also the concept / value of charity campaigns like this one in a broader sense) really interesting.

    Also, I’m a dog person, but crikey that picture makes me happy!

  26. In progress*

    It’s been a busy week with a practice interview, an interview today and an interview tomorrow! Things are finally starting to pick up since I started applying during the winter holidays. No offers yet. I’m disabled so I have someone who specializes in job placement for DVR.

    The only thing is, I wonder if they’re holding me back? My job coach contacts jobs on my behalf, and has gone with me to interviews to observe and support me. I know that having a friend do this would be a bad idea, so is it different since she is a professional? Do companies understand this? This doesn’t mean I can’t hold a job or do a good interview. I’ve gotten positive feedback on both. Should I turn down her help?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ooooh. I can’t imagine this wouldn’t impact how you’re being perceived, but maybe more context will help here. How is it explained to the companies you’re interviewing with? (If it’s being framed at all as “emotional support,” that’s going to be a negative for most companies — who will worry about what kind of support you’ll need on the job.)

      1. In progress*

        Alison- we approach it as neutrally as possible. I just introduce her as a job coach. If I explained the disability situation, that might make it more understandable, but of course some companies would hold that against me. There is an argument that I would not want to work for a company that would discriminate anyway. But I’ve been told all my life that my disability is something to keep hidden. Thanks!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Okay, no, you can’t do this! I’m actually amazed employers are allowing it (I wouldn’t, not without it being explicitly connected to a disability in some way). There’s no way this will reflect well on you. And the fact that she doesn’t realize that and is encouraging you to do this is very, very concerning about her competence!

          1. In progress*

            In that case, would you suggest I disclose I have a disability? Having her there is a help since social anxiety is part of the disability and I can get feedback on the interview. Otherwise, I could just get a pep talk beforehand and try to do my best on my own.

            1. Jen RO*

              This is what I would think if I were a hiring manager: if your social anxiety is so bad you need a job coach with you in the interview, are you going to be able to face the actual job without the coach?

            2. Zillah*

              I don’t want to be unsympathetic, because I totally understand how terrible and debilitating anxiety can be – I grapple with anxiety, too, and it’s really, really tough. Like, days where I can’t get out of bed tough.

              But.

              I don’t know all the particulars of your disability, obviously, but whatever it is, I think you need to learn how to handle it by yourself. I’m not saying that your coach can’t be helpful, but I think she needs to be helpful from the sidelines – e.g., helping you prep for interviews, giving you companies to contact, etc. Being unable to do an interview on your own isn’t good. Explaining that it’s related to your disability would, IMO, make things even worse, because then you’re not just naive, you’re explicitly presenting yourself as incapable of functioning on your own, you know?

              Again, I really, really get how hard anxiety can be… but I think you need to get a hold of this now. Maybe it will mean more anxiety which means you can apply to fewer jobs, but I think that’s balanced out by having a much better chance of getting hired.

              1. The IT Manager*

                +1. Companies are thinking if you can’t go to an interview without your coach right there that you won’t be able to work without someone looking over your shoulder.

            3. College Career Counselor*

              If at all possible, I would recommend the pep talk beforehand (like RIGHT before) if at all possible. I agree with Alison that someone who shows up with a second person for an interview (as a job coach, even) is going to be off-putting for most employers. Even connected to a disability is going to be difficult for many employers to understand because they will likely feel, as others point out, that if you need the support during the interview, then they’ll question your ability to do the job. (And I understand that the interview is for many people the most anxiety-inducing part of employment…)

            4. fposte*

              As an interviewer, I would assume that if an assistant were to be included in the interview it’s because she would have to be included in the workplace. That would require considerable workplace accommodation.

              1. athek*

                +1. And as someone who had this happen to me unexpectedly in an interview, it made me feel all sorts of uncomfortable and raised so many questions about accommodation and ability (and I strongly feel that I wouldn’t have had as many concerns without the presence of the assistant).
                If you choose to proceed with this, be very careful. I felt the assistant was overstepping her support and unfairly helping the interviewee by feeding her things to say in the questions. I would recommend that you guys clear boundaries ahead of time.

          2. Confused*

            Think of it in terms of Alison’s go-to dating analogy. Imagine if you went on a date with someone and they showed up with a dating coach or parent.
            I understand your coach is there to help you with your anxiety and interviews are more stressful than everyday life but they are probably wondering how you would be able to handle stressful situations at work by yourself if you’re not able to interview by yourself.
            Is it possible for your coach to stay in the car or go to a nearby coffee shop while you interview? Maybe…?

            1. In progress*

              Maybe! I’ll try it out tomorrow. To be honest the interview tomorrow is not one I really want (I said I could do something I don’t feel comfortable doing because I didn’t think I could turn it down). So I won’t lose anything by trying a different strategy.

        2. Dan*

          I don’t know what DVR is and google just tells me it’s another word for TiVo, which I don’t think applies here.

          In any event, I think you have to explain the disability or leave the coach out. Bringing someone with you to an interview is so outside the conventional norm that you need a compelling excuse. “Job coach” isn’t going to cut it.

          You also have to be *really* careful how you interpret feedback. In this society, we will tell you one thing to your face, and say another behind your back. In fact, Alison posted a list of “lies employers tell job seekers” just the other day. They may tell you they’re not bothered, but if you get no offers, you get no offers.

          1. In progress*

            DVR is Department of Vocational Rehab in my state. I’m not sure if that’s true for all states.

            Thanks for replying! Hm. Thankfully I’ve only been to two interviews with her along. The one yesterday, which I really wanted, I acted on my gut feeling and decided to do it alone. My job coach is already accompanying me to tomorrow’s interview so I’ll need to think fast if I want to nix it or disclose.

            1. Dan*

              Ok, I saw that reference too, but the way I interpreted your phrasing, I thought it was a reference to a disability and the job coach specialized in that. I didn’t catch that it was a government worker.

              Since it’s late and I tend to be blunt, nix the coach. I don’t know the nature of your disabilities, but you’re better off just dealing with it yourself. In my line of work, we deal with a lot of smart, socially awkward people, so we’re used to people who aren’t the most polished in interviews. If someone showed up with a job coach, they’d just set off all kinds of alarm bells.

              Just be your quirky self and exhibit confidence that you can do the job, and whatever happens, happens.

              All we try to figure out is: 1) Can this person do what their resume says (you’d be surprised) 2) Can I work with this person 3) Do they have confidence in themselves?

              I’m a math geek and software developer. If “polish” was required to get a job in my line of work, I’d be on unemployment forever.

              Nix the coach and good luck :)

            2. Elizabeth West*

              I’ve been in VR (in it now) and I’m puzzled as to why they are going with you at all. In my experience, I’ve been coached and all the interviewing, etc. was my responsibility. I don’t know the nature of your disability (and I’m not asking you to reveal it). This just seems odd to me.

    2. In progress*

      Also (because of the disability) I’m being financially supported by my family. My mother in particular does not really “get” the limitations I have, and how things are different now. She hasn’t had to look for a job in 20 years. I keep getting pressured to do things that aren’t useful (cold calling), or show excellent progress for things that are out of my control. For example, after applying or interviews I prefer (as Alison suggests) to just not put too much on it. But for her, I need to make it sound like the best! thing! ever! and of course I will get it. Emotionally, it gets really difficult. But of course I don’t want to be ungrateful for the help I receive and jeopardize our relationship.

      Mostly I’m just venting. But if anyone has input about getting a job w/ disabilities (and government support) or dealing with family that works against what’s best for your job searching, but you can’t shut out, that would be great.

      1. Char*

        Hey I know how pressurizing it is when people (for e.g. your mum) is urging you to do something about your life. Something like what I’m going through now :( I don’t really think it’s a good idea to have your job coach with you as a form of emotional support, because anxiety happens to everyone, though in different intensity. I think what you want the potential employer to do is to see you in equal light as any other people interviewing for the job. And having a coach there kind of sets you apart.

        I’m not sure what’s your disability is exactly but if you think you should say it, then honesty is the best policy. I hope you (and me as well) could find a job that we would really enjoy soon.all the best!

      2. Kay*

        I actually work on the other side of that as someone who places people who have disabilities. I agree with what Alison said about bringing a job coach or an employment specialist into the interview or even having them do the contact work for the employer. In my experience most employers don’t really know how to handle this situation and the majority don’t like having it surprise them on the day of the interview. It’s very difficult to broach the subject ahead of time without mentioning disability, although many of my clients use it as an opportunity to disclose. They usually say something like “I just wanted to let you know that I usually have a (job coach, dog guide, etc) to help me get to the interview. This won’t affect my ability to interview or perform the job, but I wanted to make sure you had a heads up”. Most employers prefer to hear it ahead of time, and if they pretend that the position has been filled after that…it wasn’t a place you wanted to work anyway.

        However if you prefer to not disclose, one of the best methods I’ve found for my clients, especially people who have aspects of anxiety, is networking. Occassionally going through channels like internships or work try-outs takes the pressure off a little bit (on both you and the employer) and makes the process slightly less formal.

      3. Anon*

        I am a deaf person and while legally I could request an interpreter at interviews, I don’t. Because if I can’t communicate with them without an interpreter, how am I going to be able to do my day to day job? I adapt my needs and show that even if I ask them to repeat that I can do an effective job. I am able to speak and listen.

        While I get people are trying to be helpful, even someone in my situation would be better off communicating in their natural language because the interview is to see how you would function in their workplace. They’re not hiring the coach, they’re hiring you.

        So the question to you would be: if you can’t do an interview without the coach, how would you cope in the job? That is the sort of answer you need to come up with yourself.

        1. FRRibs*

          We used to have an HR person who was deaf; they had a sign person follow him around and sign to him whenever he left his office. Nice but weird and more than a bit overboard, imo.

      4. Joey*

        If at all possible go to the interview without your job coach. Employers want to to see the person you will be on the job, not the person you are when you’re job coach is there. If you absolutely need your job coach that’s fine, but if you don’t then leave her behind for the interview.

    3. ChristineSW*

      I can completely empathize. In addition to the vision, I also have some anxiety and used to use a job coach. Years ago, my coach (who, honestly, I miss very much) initially made all the contacts, then after not getting many interviews, handed the reins to me; this helped because I got more interviews. She still accompanied me, which yielded a few hiccups, but one employer–where I eventually got a job–was incredibly supportive.

      All that said…

      I can absolutely see everyone’s point about the downsides of having the coach with you. Yes, I think most interviewers knew it was a professional and not a friend, but having been through the ringer myself, I know that employers would have a lot of hesitation if a candidate brought along someone, even if it is a coach. I think it’s okay to have a coach to help you practice interviewing and helping you talk out concerns. But see what you can do on your own–I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised :)

      Best of luck to you!!

      1. Jen RO*

        Christine or OP, can you explain what a job coach *is*? I’ve never heard about this and I’m kinda confused. Is it a person offering you (moral) support when you’re job searching? Someone who can explain your limitations to employers and advocate for you? Something else completely?

        1. ChristineSW*

          Depending on a person’s given situation, a job coach can do all of that. It’s called Supported Employment and is geared primarily towards those with developmental disabilities or severe mental illness, though I think they can work with any type of disability provided they qualify for the service. A job coach may help you select appropriate jobs to apply for, help with resume writing or interviewing and, with those with more severe limitations, accompany you to the interview. Once employed, they can help you acclimate to the job and perhaps help the employer understand your needs and assist in determining appropriate accommodations.

          Granted, this was all back before I went to grad school. I know in many states, they’ve been really trying to overhaul employment services, so I don’t know if the nature of job coaching is any different now than when I was using it. Kay (who commented above) might know more than me. (FTR: I did have a coach briefly when I was looking for work after my layoff, but nothing really panned out).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked in an adjacent field. It was always my understanding that the employer understood BEFORE the interview what is going on.

      The process should be something similar to this:
      The job coach or other coworker calls the employer and enthusiastically explains that they have some one for x position. Because of [limitations/needs in aclimating to the job/insert correct wording here] this person will be assisted by a job coach for x period of time at no charge to the employer.
      The requirements of the job (usually a job description) are reviewed to make sure the job is appropriate for the candidate.
      The employer and job coach come to an agreement OR decide that the position is not suitable for the candidate. (Too much lifting/standing/requires fine dexterity/etc.) Once agreed, the candidate goes for an interview.

      All this should be done BEFORE the interview. Therefore it would be perfectly appropriate for the job coach to go to the interview with you. Key point: The employer knows the plan here.
      The employer does not need to know the nature of the disability. But they do need to be able to figure out if reasonable accommodation can be made. For instance a concert hall is not going to be able to accommodate the need for a quiet work place.

      Ask your job coach what the employer is told. You have the right to know that. You should also have a clear idea of how the job coach will assist in getting into the swing of the new job. How long will she stay with you? What goals will she target with you?

      If she has been a job coach for any length of time she should be good at answering questions such as “What if x happens?” Or “How do I handle y?”

      The point in having the job coach go with you on the interview is because she has to learn about the particular job, too. Since she will be assisting you, she needs to be oriented to the major tasks and the key people that you will be working with, too.

      Yes, there are a lot of employers out there that are happy to work with job coaches. And yes, some employers have no idea what a job coach is or does. This is why that preliminary phone call is so important. It could be that the job coaching company has an on-going relationship with the employer or it could be that they are just starting with a new employer. You can ask the job coach that question also: “has your company ever placed people with this employer before now?”

      You have the right to know how the job coach does what she does. It’s totally fine to ask her questions.

      Now. Let’s say you ask a lot of questions and you just plain are not happy with her answers. Matter of fact, you start thinking that the relationship with this particular coach is not working well for you. You can ask if there is another coach who can work with you. BUT. Really try to give this coach a fair shot first.

      Keep accepting her help until you either a) settle into a job and are okay OR b) can see beyond doubt that you are better off on your own.
      I have seen too many happy stories come from working with a job coach. If you think there is a chance she can make a difference for you- keep working with her.

      1. In progress*

        This might be a bit late but thank you! I’m still weighing my options but at least I know that having a job coach assist me could work out. I’m not sure if she contacted the employers before the interview, but now I know what to ask if I decide to have her help.

      2. ChristineSW*

        Great post NSNR–what you described sounds fairly similar to the process I went through.

        I’m curious though–in your experience, have you heard of people with college or advanced degrees benefiting from job coaching or similar services? I’m one of those oddball people who have strong academic skills, but struggle a bit with interviewing and the work environment.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is late, I hope you get to see this.
          Typically, the people who have degrees also have a disability- I mean complete with doctor documentation and testing etc. The times I have seen it done, the person has been in a severe accident or had a terrible debiliating illness. In other words, extreme situations.

          But my world is as big as one square foot on this planet.

          There maybe people who will work on a less formal basis with less documentation and for private pay. (As opposed to government pay.) I would start looking for the answer to this by contacting the local employment office. They may be able to steer you towards helpful resources. I know the employment office near me had some type of group sessions where people could talk with each other about their job search.

          On the other hand you may find someone who is a life coach that would be willing to help. (Not all life coaches, so this might be a bit of a hunt.) Life coaches are good at hammering out a plan to deal with a question. It’s a lot of work but if you are willing to build a plan and follow the plan, this might help.

  27. Karin*

    I need to break up with my trainer. I started about 8 months ago and I exercise with him 3 times a week. My schedule is getting busier and it’s hard to make the time for a 3 times a week standing appointment (when I can work out on my own when it’s more convenient in my day) and I’m finding it harder to justify how much I’m paying each month. I like him so it’s just about wanting to prioritize other stuff right now. But I’m dreading telling him. I pay a month in advance and it’s always assumed I’ll be re-upping for another month but I want this to be the last month for a while. So what on earth do I say? I feel like I’m going to hurt his feelings – he really invests in his clients personally and it’s a pretty intimate relationship and I’ve gotten to know him fairly well.

    1. Lacey*

      “I have to focus on a few other things in the next few months so I’ll finish up at the end of this month and get back to you when my schedule is less hectic.”

      Don’t make it personal, just make it about the hours.

    2. Zillah*

      He may invest in his clients personally, but ultimately, he is still providing you a service that you are paying him for. Would he still be your trainer if you said, “I can’t pay you anymore”? Probably not. The same is true of your time.

  28. LittleMonkey*

    Had a phone interview today.
    The job description was pretty generic, and I didn’t think I had the exact skills they needed.
    But ouch! when I got the rejection email just two hours later.
    That’s the quickest “thanks but no thanks” I’ve received yet.

    Lesson learned: Be careful when applying to job ads that are fuzzy on details–your ego might get bruised! :/

    2. Trillian*

      I’ve been rejected before I even applied. I wrote away requesting application forms, as required by the advert – it was in the pre-internet days – and by return of mail got a rejection letter.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Mind readers don’t need apps.

        You dodged a bullet. I wouldn’t want to work with people who could read my mind.

        Sigh.

    3. Dan*

      I once applied for a job that I was perfectly qualified for. The next day, I found the rejection letter in my mailbox. Made me wonder just how fast they got that thing written, and what I did to piss them off. I had really good experience in exactly that line of work, so I was truly curious what the deal was.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        They had an internal candidate, most likely, and were just posting the job per legal requirements.

  29. AdjunctForNow*

    Okay, so I accepted a full-time academic position beginning mid-July. I want to connect with some of my new colleagues on LinkedIn. But to do that, LI wants to know how I know them and all that. Is it too early to add my new position to my profile? The fact that I’ve accepted the position is known to my current employers and everyone at the new school and everything, I just feel like it’s somehow presumptuous.

    1. AdjunctForNow*

      And LI won’t let me put a new position with a future date. The only way to do it is to say that I work there starting in the current month.

      1. Jen RO*

        Can’t you just choose the “friends” option that doesn’t request any other info?

        1. Fiona*

          Ditto, I use the “friends” option 90% of the time. IIRC, you have to put in an email address to “prove” you know them, but if they are future coworkers, then you probably have or can guess that info.

            1. Alicia*

              Perhaps that is because you share an employer or educational institute. If you don’t have any obvious paths that cross-over you need to “prove it”.

              That’s been my experience where I work in a building with three different employers. I see them every day around lunch, and email them once and awhile, but we don’t have obvious overlaps. So you have to type in their email.

    2. Brett*

      Put the current date. In the description of the position say, “Accepted an appointment in the Dept of Chocolate Teapots beginning July 2014 and teaching Dark Chocolate Teapotology beginning Summer 2014.”
      You can update the start date later once you start.

  30. Carrie in Scotland*

    I just need to rant about how dire my work situation is. I just came back from holidays and all my managers were in a.meeting (I came in later due to an appt) and I opened my emails and I was just lost as to where to start and what had been done, what needed to be done. When my manager came out of her meeting for a tea break she gave me the most rushed handover ever. We have a new start monday and someone has handed in their notice (I wish it were me!) so it isnt going to get any better… //end moan.

  31. Rayner*

    *sighs*

    I just added up the degree I did+ the masters that I want to do in Norway, and it’s coming off as about £55,000. (Near enough $100,000)

    *sighs*

    And after all that, the bachelors that I got the first time around had terrible grades – a result of depression and undiagnosed mental health issues. Is it worth going back to improve my bachelor’s grades? To do a whole new one – maybe even in a different field, and to make it not look like I’m a failure academically because I’m not. I went from A grades to D grades overnight. Or is it worth topping it up with Masters grade qualifications instead?

    I have international experience with my university – my degree title is “Blah blash with blah balsh WITH international experience” but idk. It just really depresses me when I look at the value of my degree and think that it’s not strong at all.

    Blargh.

    1. Anony*

      If you have a qualification higher than another sometimes you can get away without listing the grades of the lower one. Sometimes employers can ask what grades, but not always.

      1. Char*

        I think grades are not as important as your work experience. Going back to bachelor to pull up your grade is a waste of time. If you’re interested in getting a second bachelor in something you’re interested in (which is what I’m thinking) than it makes more sense to go for it? You need to know why you wanna study again. Nothing is perfect and there’s no point making your academic grade perfect because it’s not a good measure of you at work and as a human being generally.

        I didn’t do well for a-levels though I managd to get into a good uni, and I’m embarassed to mention my grades for job application sometimes. But I know I’m a better person (in term of knowledge and perspective) than I was back then. Never stop learning but know why are you doing something you’re doing.

    2. Jen RO*

      Serious question: does any employer care about your grades? I really doubt that. I mean, the general manager of my first professional job asked about them, but he was a weirdo. None of my other employers gave a damn. You do have the degree and that’s what they will care about. (Or not – mine is in a completely unrelated field and it’s never mattered.)

    3. Katie*

      Um, no.

      It might make sense to talk about this with Norwegian professionals, but in the US, no one cares about your grades unless its your first job out of school. I personally know a few people in a similar situation who are are doing fantastic professionally despite having a tough time in school.

      1. Ali*

        I just did a job application that asked for my high school GPA. Considering I’ve been out of high school for 10 years this year, I am just praying the number is right.

        1. fposte*

          I still think Katie is right–that’s a box-ticking question rather than somebody genuinely caring.

  32. Anony*

    I’ve been rehired on a perm basis pending my trial period review by a company I’ve tempted for in the past. My salary is slightly lower than it was before and I was told this is because I’m now a perm (which makes sense). When I was hired HR said I was up near the top of my pay grade with a chance to get trained up to the next pay bracket. When I previously worked there it was as a temp/contractor during their busy period, our department was bigger and all on the one big project working directly with our department head.

    I’m now finding myself with tons more responsibility; attending meetings, scheduling my own work etc that I have not done before. I’m feeling really stressed, and keep making embarrassing mistakes (I’m a introvert and find social situations challenging). Since I temped before people don’t always explain what I am meant to be doing or how to do things, which as you’d expect have sometimes changed since I worked there. Boss is new since last time I worked here so in that respects it’s like a new job. Boss is also on another project so I rarely speak to him, apart from the occasional “hi”. . I was expecting more training /support. I don’t know if the pay gap between temp and perm is wider than I thought or if New Boss is very hands off or wrapped up in his own project. It may just hopefully be that he thinks I am doing OK so is leaving me to my own devices.

    My trial period review is coming up and I don’t know how much of this I should confide in my boss. I am usually very critical of myself, I’m dreading the feedback meeting, in case he asks me how things are going before he’s said anything. My friend tells me it’s OK to be stressed out and to ” fake it ’til I make it”.

    Any tips on what to do?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Tip 1:

      Take a breath!

      I will bet things are going much better than you think and you are spinning yourself into anxiety unnecessarily. You have the job. You aren’t a temp employee anymore, “trial period” notwithstanding. Companies don’t like to get rid of employees.

      As far as the pay thing goes, forget about that for right now. I don’t like that you are being paid less as a perm than a temp (that’s weird to me and not something we ever do), but the upcoming meeting isn’t the place to talk about getting a raise after so short a time as an employee so….take the pay off of your mental plate.

      I’d focus on two things:

      1) what can your boss/the company do to help you do your job better. “I think I could be more effective at XYZ if I had ABC training”

      2) requesting feedback on areas that your boss would like to see you improve

      Employers are a sucker for #2. I bite on it every time, even when I know I am biting on it, I still bite on it. If I have question marks about a new employee’s performance, and that employee proactively asks me what areas I would like to see her improve, I immediately turn soft and helpful.

      Oh, be sure you bring a pad and pen and take notes, too. Sucker for that also.

      1. Katie*

        Fantastic advice!

        New job stress is normal. I basically can’t function normally and am super tired for the first 2-3 months of a new job. It’s not you, it’s everyone.

        Don’t disclose your anxiety to your boss. Ask for feedback and training, but don’t go the emotional route. It’s not their job to help you calibrate your emotions, and in all likelihood they notice you struggling less than you see yourself.

        Get comfortable with what you’re doing, then get good, and when you’re good, advocate for the raise/promotion.

        1. Anony*

          Thanks. OP here really good advice. I like the idea of being proactive in the feedback meeting. I am glad I am not the only one who feels drained at a new job!

          1. Chriama*

            I don’t think you should wait until the feedback meeting if it’s possible. You know there are areas that need improvement. You should be getting informal feedback all the time, and don’t be afraid to ask for it. The problem with waiting until the trial period review (is it mid-period or at the end) is that if there are real issues you might not have enough time to fix things before your probation is up.

            Talk to your boss now, either about specific things (how to I learn more about task xyz) or a pattern of things (I find that people expect me to know certain things, but I don’t have the proper context because I was only a temp. What are some good strategies for learning about this stuff?)

  33. Detrich B*

    I’m curious if anyone here has some suggestions for me.

    I have two different disabilities: high-functioning autism, which impairs my ability to understand others’ emotions and react in a socially appropriate way, and a vision impairment serious enough that I’m legally blind without correction.

    No one will hire me. I have had some interviews, but never hear back. The vocational rehabilitation people have written me off and told me to apply for SSI. I refuse to lower myself to that.

    If I can complete a Master’s degree, I can certainly work with proper accommodations.

    I’m 31 and have never worked before. This has to end.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Google:

      Specialisterne

      (I’ll also reply with a link but links typically get held up in moderation and hopefully Alison is sleeping atm.)

      If you are in the US and you haven’t contacted Specialisterne yet, try that. You are pretty much the employee that they are looking to match up re autism as you are high functioning and educated. This is what they do.

      You may have to relocate.

      Re legally blind, they match I think mostly with tech jobs. I don’t know a lot about legally blind accommodations other than knowing that legally blind accommodations on computers and online seem to serve people well.

    2. In progress*

      Dang that’s too bad. I know there’s opportunities out there. As far as employers giving you a chance? I don’t know the answer to that. Don’t give up. I think going back to school is great for making yourself a better hiring candidate. What kind of work do you feel comfortable doing? I assume they did a workplace assessment where you proved yourself. Can you volunteer somewhere to show that you can do it?

      I’m a little curious though. As I understand you need glasses? That shouldn’t be a big deal for a workplace. And there’s certain fields where autism is pretty well accepted (from what I hear- I have a couple relatives on the autism spectrum). It doesn’t sound like they’re even trying to help.

    3. FRRibs*

      Not that you’d get paid for it, but if you’re a good listener have you ever thought about volunteering for your local suicide/mental health hotline? My Dad who was blind found it rewarding if often emotionally difficult.

      1. FRRibs*

        Totally skipping over the autism aspect; wish you could edit typing-faster-than-thiking-speed posts.

    4. Kay*

      I’m sorry that your voc rehab people have reacted in that way. I work on the placement side of things and I know how frustrating it can be to have the counselors burn out. Have they tried to set you up with internships? That would be a good way to get work experience on your resume, and often they can be sponsored by your counselor.

    5. The IT Manager*

      Have you tried looked into the government? I do not know if that is the answer for you. I know they give hiring preference for disabled veterans, but theymay also give preference to non-veteran’s with disabilities.

      Also, a question, because I’m curious, with correction how is your vision? I mean, I am also legally blind without correction, but I correct to near 20/20 so I never refere to that as a disability. OTOH I have friends from college who are legally blind and their vision cannot be corrected. One is a computer programmer/developer now so it can be done. It seems to me now that his biggest problem is actually getting around since he cannot drive. He lives in a city and even then the American public transit system is a problem since it doesn’t go everywhere.

      1. hilde*

        yes, I work in a state government where applicants are afforded a disability preference (South Dakota).

    6. Anonicorn*

      If you get into a master’s program, you could look into internship options, school organizations, etc. You could also get to know your professors, and, even though interpersonal relationships might be an obstacle, you will usually have to work with these people anyway. And they can see how dedicated and competent you are and maybe recommend you to employers.

      Another thought I had is looking up organizations that seem especially understanding, charitable, or humanistic – places that have that sort of language in their mission statements. For example, lots of healthcare systems need “behind the scenes” people in administration, IT, etc. and might be more sympathetic.

    7. AnonHR*

      Are you interested/educated in a tech field? Adaptive tech is such a growing industry, and almost all of the gainfully employed blind/VI people I know are working in adaptive tech, higher education, or support fields for vets or other people with visual impairments (out of those, with your additional disability, tech sounds like a great fit). Masters degrees have really helped a lot of people I know in those fields, so it may not be the worst idea.

      My suggestion is to contact your local reps for the NFB or ACB, and see if you can find state/local VI advocacy orgs in your area. I know there are some people even there who would just tell you to take your SS and stop looking, but overall, they have very little patience for that bs, and as political and messy as they can get when you get involved in them, they’re invaluable for networking. They may also have local business partnerships to get you into a “starter” job or internship to build your resume.

    8. Tiffany In Houston*

      Was also coming to suggest looking into state/local government. My husband works for the state Health and Human Services commission and currently has 2 ppl on his team that have visual impairments and have the necessary accommodations made for them. Good luck!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Get new people.
      Seriously.
      I am not clear on legally blind with out correction.
      Does this mean glasses? surgery?
      How do you access this blog? You got here. Tells me a lot about you already.

      The people surrounding you are maxed out for ideas. So as you are doing now, keep looking for new people to talk with.

      My suggestions would be companies or agencies that work with vision impairment. This could be advocacy groups, companies that build adaptive equipment etc.

      My boss, who is legally blind in one eye and the other eye is not doing so hot , was talking about an mechanical arm that would hold her computer monitor at the exact level she needed to have it so she could read it with ease. She found it somewhere. (Probably similar to desk lights that have an “elbow”. Then some way of attaching a monitor to the end of the arm nearest the viewer. I hope I am making sense here… it’s late.)

      I never heard of such a gizmo. But it made me aware that there is a lot of stuff out there that makes the impossible become possible. This mechanical arm would be an example of an adaptive equipment company.

      I am a firm believer in going toward what you know. If life has given you extraordinary experiences, use the learning that comes with the struggles to move forward. Start there. You do not have to stay at any job forever. But you do have to start somewhere that has some familiarity in order to get your footing so you can proceed.

      (My friend started with what she knew. She got herself oriented and got into the flow of things. After a bit she was able to change jobs and do something else. Her circumstances were difficult to over come, so she worked in an arena that related to her own personal setting. She went with what she knew/understood and then branched out from there.)

  34. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Anybody else have questions that they are waiting for open thread to ask and then can’t remember what the questions are?

    DAMMIT.

    Two weeks running, different questions.

    No idea now. I’ll remember again on Saturday when open thread is either over participation or over 1000 posts and hopeless to tack onto.

    I either need more sleep or more coffee.

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      During the week, if you think of something you want to ask on the open thread, jot it down on something near your computer. Then it will be there when the thread opens.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        You clearly have never seen my desk.

        Come to think of it, neither have I. It’s under here somewhere.

        Okay, I guess I send myself an email.

        1. Anon E Mouse*

          LOL! Sounds like my desk used to look. The only reason it doesn’t look like that now is that I share a desk with 3 other people. During my shift, it looks like a hurricane hit it, but I have to clear it off before my relief gets here.

          Of course, that’s the desk at work. The *two* desks at home still look like that.

          Sticky note on the edge of the monitor?

        2. Jen RO*

          I think this is the proper place to squee: I finally got a cabinet! I moved all my crap inside and I can see my desk!

        3. Laufey*

          You can put it in as a private event on a outlook calender so it pops up Thursday night or Friday morning.

    2. Jen RO*

      Two weeks, same question! I always remember it mid-week and promptly forget it again.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Ha! I am not alone.

        For what it’s worth, I think that you should choose option A, in answer to whatever your question was. I hope that helped.

    3. ChristineSW*

      Yup, that’s happened to me too. Sometimes I’ll remember after there are several hundred comments. I’ve also had it where I was all set to ask the question–while I remember generally what I wanted to ask, it doesn’t come out nearly as coherently as I’d wanted. I’ll have to try writing it down in the future.

      P.S. I love your posts, WTL!

  35. Jess*

    I have a very important question: Is it better to match your clothing to the shade of fur that will end up on it, or just pick something and hope the cat sleeps somewhere else?

      1. Anon*

        Ugh. I live in Toronto and lint rollers are so expensive! Like $10 for a decent one. Costco is in suburbia and I’m not willing to venture out and leave the core. WHY ISN’T ANYONE MAKING AFFORDABLE LINT ROLLERS FOR CAT PEOPLE!

        2. KarenT*

          It’s time to leave the core! Costco sells the Scotch tape ones (super sticky, awesome for pet hair) at 6 rollers for $11.99.

      2. vvondervvoman*

        Isn’t there a lint roller that’s reusable? Like no sticky sheets, just a weird plastic that you can rinse off.

        1. kas*

          Yes, I have the sticky sheet one and the reusable one and the reusable one is very annoying. Peeling off the sheets is much easier and more convenient but it’s great to have a backup if the sheets run out.

    2. Jen RO*

      I try to avoid black, I keep the cats away from the wardrobe, and I love my lint rollers.

      1. Jen RO*

        I have two cats – one is a brown tabby, the other is half brown, half white. I’m screwed with dark *and* light colors!

    4. Sascha*

      I know your pain. I’ve invested in lint rollers. I have a large, cream-colored dog that sheds in clumps and he likes to brush against my legs, so by the time I get to work, my black pants are pretty much white from the thigh down.

    5. Yup*

      I just go with it and hope that others mistake the fur for a cutting edge fashion treatment, like space dye.

    6. Diet Coke Addict*

      I have one dark cat and one light cat, so basically the cat is not allowed in the bedroom, and we buy lint rollers in bulk. And I keep one in my car.

      1. Lara*

        My dog is black and white, so the black fur shows up on light clothes and the white fur on dark. Lint rollers are a must, and I also recommend the Bissell Pet Hair Eraser vacuum!

      1. Nodumbunny*

        I got a second golden last winter and now I’m constantly covered in fur from the knees down.

    8. KAS*

      I don’t put on “work clothing” until right (as in minutes) before I leave that house. That limits my exposure to Maine-Coon-Fur-Bomb.

      1. Mints*

        Me too. (Pre-morning, I need to put my clothes away right away and can’t leave them out.) My routine is that as soon as I get out of the shower, I put on sweats or flannels. Then I do grooming, eating breakfast, checking email, packing lunch, feeding the kitties, petting the kitties, stumbling around until I’m almost late. Then I put on my work clothes and leave right away.
        It’s also warmer without needing to wear a coat inside

  36. IronMaiden*

    Woohoo, only 177 comments.

    I was very annoyed today when an admin person walked from her end of the building to ask me for a piece of information that she could have found for herself. She then proceeded to email me asking for it and CCing the team leader. I sent it to her but am puzzled by the CCing? Can anyone offer any insight or is this a weird idiosyncrasy (that will annoy the TL is she does it for every request for info).

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      My guess is that the piece she needed was related to something the team leader had assigned and she was leaving a trail that she’d done her part in requesting the info. The annoying thing is that you now have to cc the team leader back in providing it.

      Some people are over cc’ers. If she does it enough, the team leader will tell her to cut it out.

      The generous outlook on over cc’ers is that they aren’t in tune with the social conventions of who should be on a cc and when and mistakes they make are unintended.

      The ungenerous outlook is that they are either self-important or have ill intentions of documenting lack of followup from another person.

      I like to go with the generous outlook until proven otherwise.

      1. IronMaiden*

        Thanks Wakeen’s, your generous approach is about what I thought. I didn’t CC the TL either when I provided the info. Really, this admin could have accessed the info herself, without disturbing me in the middle of something technical and time sensitive.

        1. Nicole*

          That’s a case where I’d be super friendly in providing the info while also explaining to her, in the email, how she can get the info on her own the next time so she doesn’t have to wait on you. I’m a firm believer in helping people be self-sufficient. :)

      2. The IT Manager*

        Wooohooo! My email inbox has less than 700 messages.

        Given that, I do not look kindly on over CCers and might suspect that this person is trying to look busy to prove to their boss how much they work. I had some people that did that to me.

    2. Chriama*

      Ignore the cc thing unless you know it’s becoming a problem for you (e.g. Team leader tells you to cut it out, at which point you say it’s admin but you will certainly tell her to cut it out).

      As for interrupting you for info she could get herself, if it’s a one-time thing I’d let it go. If it happens frequently, you have a couple options:
      1) talk to her about the general pattern. “You frequently come see me with information you could easily find yourself. Not only is this disruptive to me, but it’s an inefficient use of your time. In the future you need to first look it up yourself, second email/call me, third come see me only if it’s time sensitive and urgent”(modify those steps to suit your preference).
      2) If it’s really hampering your productivity, talk to team lead. “Admin frequently interrupts me for things she should be able to do herself. When she does that it prevents me from doing my own tasks a,b,c on time. How should I handle this? Is there are resource I can direct her to for training purposes?”

      I would only go with 2) after you’ve tried 1) or the admin has proven really unreceptive to feedback in the past.

  37. Christy*

    Yay open thread. My job is driving me crazy/making me depressed, and I need advice!

    Should I go back to community college to get a web design certificate? It is a short program that would help round out my graphic design degree (which did not include web design when I graduated) and has the added perk of making me a student again, so I can apply for an internship locally which I haven’t been able to do because all the places around will only take students (which is another rant)

    The biggest issue I am having with this scheme is that my current job will not work with me on this, so I would have to switch shifts and drop to part time. Everyone here is telling me that this is the worst idea ever, but to me the potential gains seem to outweigh the risk. It’s not like I want to work fulltime at my current (not creative) job for the rest of eternity. I want to transition into my degree area, but haven’t had any luck since graduation two years ago. Everyone seems disappointed about no web design experience, lack of internship experience, and I think this could help greatly.

    Has anyone been in this position before? Thoughts/Comments?

    1. Jen RO*

      How short is short? Could you live on a part time job? Could you get this experience by learning web design on your own?

      I personally suck at learning anything by myself, I need a classroom environment, so I’d probably go for the program unless it wasn’t long (a semester tops). Everyone also tells me that I should just learn alone! (I’m looking at Java.)

      1. Christy*

        I’m trying to learn myself, but I am going slower than I’d like and don’t know what to focus on. The program is only two years long but I can transfer most of my previous credits over, so it would most likely be one year for me.

        And yes, I can live on part-time, but I am getting hung up on everyone (mom/boyfriend/friends) predicting doom and gloom- in that the job market sucks, that I shouldn’t give up full time because I’d never get it back…but I really don’t know what else to do.

        1. Jen RO*

          I have no idea about the US job market, but web design is a booming business here, so this seems like the kind of degree that would help a lot for your future jobs.

        2. Another Sara*

          For what it’s worth, I started a part-time graduate program in the fall and I’m so, so glad I did. I’ve spent the last 8 years working as a self-taught, non-traditional programmer in a non-IT role. I decided to go back to school because I eventually want to transition into an official developer role, but I have a hard time assessing my own level of skill against “real” programmers. Like Jen RO, I also find it much easier to learn in a classroom environment.

          I’m two quarters in, and I have already been able to apply what I’ve learned to projects at work. It’s not so much that the information is brand new to me, but that the structured classes are connecting dots for me and providing a context in which everthing I already know becomes more useful. It’s also demonstrated that I really do know what I’m doing, and made it possible for me to explain my skills and background in terms that hiring managers in the field understand.

          My situation is different, because I’m able to continue working full-time, and because my employer has a generous tuition reimbursement program. However, I would have done it even if I had to foot the bill myself and switch to part-time work.

          I can’t say that your experience would be the same as mine, but I just wanted to give you a success story to combat the doom-and-gloom :)

        3. bev*

          Yes, get the certification. Even though your family and friends are scared about the future, if you don’t get the certification, you will never move up in your career if employers keep asking for things you don’t have.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I am chatty cathy tonight/this morning. I really am going to stop and do work soon. Apologize for all of the bandwidth I’m sucking up here!

      Anyway, I do have to jump on this because I am stymied by the lack of web experience I am seeing on people coming out of art school.

      We hire entry level graphic arts frequently, as in a new batch about every six months. I sift through the piles looking for people who are qualified to do the production art job who also have any background in or even interest in CSS.

      I have web designers but could really use people or persons who could do occasional CSS work and then learn and eventually move into a web designer position if they show aptitude. This works with print marketing but I’m just amazed I can’t make it work with web marketing.

      So, obviously, my answer to your question is a loud “Yes!”. There are a zillion graphic artists looking for jobs and not nearly as many of them are able to work on the web as you would think.

      1. Fiona*

        So, how do I get on this entry level train of yours? Because I’d love a job that has this kind of variety in its workload.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Er, actually, it’s not an interesting job full of variety at all, unfortunately. It a routine job, full of many of the same things over and over again. :(

          We do inject alternate work as possible which is how some people have been able to move onto print marketing and maybe one day, somebody who likes CSS will get some web work.

          Definitely best for entry level. We hire with no experience. As long as someone is ready to move onto something else in 1 to 2 years, it’s a good deal kind of job. After that it’s pretty dead end. :(

      2. Sunflower*

        You might be the perfect person to answer this quetsion!

        Do you have any suggestions for someone with no real web editing experience? I graduated college 3 years ago and have background in copywriting and web content marketing but a lot of jobs want some sort of web editing experience. I don’t have the funds or time to take a formal program but are there short courses or books I can read to get some skills? and which ones would you recommend?

        1. Mints*

          This isn’t part of my job, but I like codecademy. My job is boring enough that I spend lots of time on that site.
          There are a few courses on each language, and then you can build websites from scratch on their platform. I’ve done html& css, which were fun. I started Javascript, but it was really boring. Anyway, I’m now just building new dummy sites with different formats.
          I’m considering making a more polished site with custom graphics to make semi-public (like on the tumblr platform). I feel like I’m learning, though, so I like it.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Well, I’m self taught, but I’m not an actual web designer. I just know enough to be able to read code to make simple changes or write very simple pages from an editor.

          Basically, I know the amount that I’d have hope that somebody who is a copywriter or content marketer would know. (All of my copywriters and content marketers know *basic* HTML, but we’ve taught that in house. None of them came to me that way.)

          CSS is a bitch. I hate it. I can do it but I hate it. It’s not linear!

          Hopefully these jobs you are looking at are talking about basic HTML which is a breeze to pick up….but anyway, I got started way back in the day by just fiddling around and making my own websites.

          So! You can see I’m not much help! The only suggestion I have is to jump in, but I’m sure there have to be free or cheap online thingies you can follow to learn. (I don’t think certs matter at all for a writer/marketer, unless it’s fancy places who like certs.)

    3. Jane*

      If you go back for web design, be sure to develop strong CSS & html skills (do not rely on programs like Dreamweaver!) Also, be sure to focus on usability. Take as many UX classes as you can. I’m in the industry, and finding a graphic designer who can balance good design with great functionality is unbelievably difficult. So many of them just make “pretty” things without remembering that website visitors actually have to use them.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        + 100000000

        I have one. And you can’t have him! (I only let him out of sight occasionally but there’s an embedded GPS tracking chip just in case he tries to slip away.)

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        oh and Dreamweaver is evil.

        All of the crap code. The humanity! If you are going to use Dreamweaver, you have to learn how to read and edit code anyway so you can please clean it the heck up before publishing, thankyouverymuch.

    4. Mason*

      My suggestion is that instead of spending money on school, invest time in yourself. One of the things about technology based careers is that a couple of years after you’ve gotten your degree, half of what you’ve learned is outdated and not used any more. You’re better off teaching yourself and acquiring the ability to acquire abilities! To be successful, you’ll have to keep learning new techniques, and you won’t want to pause your career every couple of years to go back to school.

    5. Jamie*

      Do you need the cert to learn what you need to learn, or is it just for other people.

      I’ve hired web designers and I’ve never asked or cared about certs – it’s one of the few jobs where it’s all show and tell is irrelevant.

      But if you need to pick up some extra skills they can teach you, that’s another story. But don’t do it just for the paper.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I love community colleges. Number one fan here.

      The only caution I have is when it comes to their certification courses.
      Find out how many of their graduates from these courses get placed at a permanent job.

      Do employers feel their course work makes a valuable employee?
      The only draw back I have ever seen with community colleges is that people end up disappointed that their certifications did not help them land a new job.

      I took some web design courses at a CC here. I loved it. And the people in the computer lab were just the BEST. I learned as much or more from them than I did in class.

  38. Kim*

    I am curious if someone can shed some light into my situation?

    I am currently working as an assistant executive for a non-profit organisation for the past 1.5 year. Last September, I completed my Bachelor’s degree on a part-time dissertation.

    I am now wondering if I should leave my current position and pursue a greater role, or stay put in my current organisation to gain some experience?

    P.S. I am now dealing with stress and unfriendly colleague, and this is partly the reason why I am seeking greener pastures elsewhere.

    Please advise, thanks!

    1. Katie*

      If you’re dissatisfied, and you feel you could get something better with your new degree, start looking for a new job while you’re at your old one. Job searches take a long time, and you might have an additional 6-12 months experience by the time you find something new.

      Do you feel like you’re still learning at your current job?

      2. Kim*

        Katie, thank you for your comments!

        To be honest, I am now in the midst of a job search, and it’s extremely depressing that there isn’t any replies from companies as yet. But I’ll press on and continue with that, though it can get really depressing at times.

        As for learning on my job, unfortunately I feel that I am now reaching my bottleneck. Just to let you know I am doing corporate communications at my work place. While I am still keeping myself afloat by producing stellar work (and coping with occasional panic attacks), I can no longer derive anymore satisfaction from my work. It’s now more of hitting Key Performance Indicators for myself and pleasing my internal customers who are desperate to showcase their work to the general public, without discerning for themselves if their project are worth mentioning at the first place.

        To make matters worse, the community of support I got from my co-workers was lost. The once close-knitted office environment is now getting cold and unfriendly. Now most of them no longer talk to me and I find it extremely hard to continue working. And this is also the reason why I feel the urge to leave the NGO soon.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Can you make a lateral move within the company?
          Is there a near-by competitor that would be very happy to hire you?
          Check out affiliates- other organizations that interact with yours.
          If you need to make an emergency bail, then that is what you have to do.
          But, yeah, it could be a bit to transition, no matter which way you go.

          1. Anonymous*

            Dear Not So NewReader, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, there are no suitable openings at other departments within my company (which I once explored), neither is there any affiliates with my organization. So I guess the only way for me to go is to wait patiently, and head out thereafter.

          2. Kim*

            Dear Not So NewReader, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, there are no suitable openings at other departments within my company (which I once explored), neither is there any affiliates with my organization. So I guess the only way for me to go is to wait patiently, and head out thereafter.

  39. Anne*

    I just wanted to say that my husband had a surprise appendectomy last Thursday, and I called his manager on Friday for him. Manager was very understanding and thanked me for calling. I couldn’t help thinking of this blog and the advice “you should only ever call your spouse’s work for them if they’re in the hospital and can’t call themselves.” Well, it happened! :P

    (Husband is absolutely fine. He got prompt and fantastic treatment, is recovering very well, we signed 1 form in the whole thing and only paid for a taxi ride home. God save the NHS.)

    1. Elkay*

      Glad to hear your husband is fine, I’m a firm believer in the statement that in an emergency the NHS will do what it’s supposed to (except that time they’d only give me one x-ray despite hurting my ankle and my wrist…)

      1. Lalou*

        The quality of care in different NHS hospitals varies so wildly in my experience. I live in a town smack in the middle of 3 big cities, and I have a little experience with the hospitals in all 3 thanks to my rugby playing other half and what I can only put down to a complete lack of fear on the pitch. One of the NHS hospitals I would certainly only visit in a DIRE emergency after a few fairly major misdiagnoses (ie being told to walk off a leg fracture) and some quite rude staff. The other two are great though!

      2. Anne*

        Yeah, care for ongoing issues does seem to vary a lot. I’m up in Edinburgh and the emergency care and staff at the Western General have been brilliant every time we’ve been there. (Got glassed a while ago… I’m truly Scottish now!)

        But the care for ongoing stuff is pretty hit or miss. My GP is pretty dismissive, and when I’ve had tests for various things they haven’t been very good at letting me know when results would be available or how to get them. When I was trying to get my anxiety under control, they were happy to put me on medication, but anything else was pretty much my own problem.

        Still way better than my experiences back home in the USA. I pay my taxes cheerfully.

        1. Lalou*

          Finding a good GP makes so much difference. I had an amazing one growing up who always at least appeared to take me seriously and would really try everything if something was wrong. I was spurred on to find her when I had a previously unknown penicillin allergy diagnosed as acne which was so obviously wrong (It didn’t look like acne and I was like 7) Since I moved to another part of the country for university and work and I haven’t found another really good one since.

    3. Anonymous*

      A *surprise* appendectomy?

      You really suck at birthday presents!

      (OK, I’m fairly sure you meant emergency, but the thought of party poppers and balloons amused me)

  40. Jen RO*

    The poster traveling to London made me think of musicals. Share your favorites! Extra points if you can recommend something really cool to see in London in May-April. (I’m planning on going in May because that’s when the Miss Saigon revival starts <3 )

    As an aside, I am jealous of people who live in countries where musicals are actually popular. Only two have been staged here, as far as I know: Chicago (ages ago, before I even knew what a musical was) and Romeo et Juliette (a French musical).

    1. Elkay*

      The Book of Mormon if you’re not easily offended. The best musical I’ve seen in recent times. I’m going to see Matilda later this year as that also gets rave reviews.

      1. Jen RO*

        Not easily offended at all, and an agnostic anyway :) Thanks for the recommendations, I’ll look them up on Deezer.

        1. Elkay*

          They were running a deal of no booking fee if you book 12 weeks in advance for Book of Mormon. I just bought the soundtrack and will be listening to it on a loop in the car for the next few months.

      2. Stephanie*

        My friend and I tried to get lotto tickets in NYC. We were all hopeful until the guy next to us said he had been entering the lotto for two years and still had no luck.

    2. Katie*

      on Broadway: Mamma Mia! It’s relatively easy to get supercheap tickets for it since it’s been running for a while. And Les Miz is back! I haven’t seen it since I was 11 and want to go back. I’ve seen Avenue Q 3 times.

      I just saw Once, which apparently is the thing to see, but I just wan’t that into it. Neither was my sister. We got a a good deal on rush tickets, and couldn’t imagine spending $200 a seat on it.

      I’m you’re in NYC, or travelling here, check out the Broadway for Broke people website and the Broadway Spotted rush report. Those two will help you figure out how to get cheap tickets directly from the ticket office (prices are better than the TCKTS counter).

      1. Jen RO*

        I’m on another continent unfortunately, so London’s West End is the best I can do.

        …And I thought Les Mis wasn’t playing there, but I was wrong! OK, my list of things to see in London just got bigger – thanks for prompting me to search for tickets!

      2. Audiophile*

        I use Gold Star for tickets to some shows. They tend to have deals pretty frequently. But nothing beats rush tickets.

      3. Fiona*

        I don’t know if either of them are playing where you are/will be, but my two favorite musicals that I’ve personally seen are Mamma Mia and Lion King. Lion King is probably my favorite ever. It was so good.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I don’t think I’ve ever seen a musical at the theatre, only operas. Although I have a couple of musicals on DVDs.

        1. Stephanie*

          I love the opera! I am usually the youngest and swarthiest person there nearly every time.

    4. Claire*

      Les Mis, definitely. Wicked is always popular. The Lion King is spectacular. I loved Priscilla, Queen of the Desert when I saw it in the West End a couple of years ago, but I think it’s touring now.

      I highly recommend the TKTS booth in Leicester Square for half price theatre tickets on the day. When I’m in London for the weekend I go there first on the Saturday morning and see what they have available, and I’ve seen some great shows I might not have bothered with otherwise by doing that. They also have a website so you can check which shows they’re likely to have available.

      1. Jen RO*

        Thank you! I’ll be sure to check out the TKTS booth. I think I’ll buy tickets in advance for Miss Saigon and Les Miserables, but maybe I can find something extra to see for cheap!

    5. Laura*

      ALL the musicals:)

      I really really want to see Matilda the Musical, but it hasn’t come here yet. I live in Toronto where we get most Broadway touring casts, but not that one! I believe it’s in London though.

      Other that I’ve actually seen and loved (no idea if they’re in London or not)
      – Rent
      -Wicked
      -Avenue Q
      – Legally Blonde the Musical
      – Mamma Mia
      – The Lion King
      – Book of Mormon
      – Chicago
      – Cabaret
      – Hairspray
      – Les Miserables

      I loved, and have seen, all of those! I’m sure some are in London. As you can see, I’m a big musical fan.

      1. Jen RO*

        Since you’re in Canada, did you happen to see Notre Dame de Paris? (Are French musicals even shown outside of Quebec?) That was the first musical I got hooked on, and I’m really sad that there’s no way I’ll ever get to see it.

        And your list of musicals sounds eerily similar to mine.We seem to have similar tastes, so I’ll add the ones I haven’t heard (Lion King and Cabaret) to my playlist. I’m super jealous that you got to see them all live – especially Rent! *swoon*

        1. Laura*

          They don’t show French musicals outside Quebec , so I’ve never seen one!

          There are 5-6 musicals a year here, and it’s what I spend my money on:) I’ve actually seen Rent 3 times, but only once was the Broadway touring cast. Lion King I’m going to see again in May – I haven’t seen it when I was a kid. I’m sure Matilda the Musical will come here eventually, but I want to see it now!

          I also had season tickets to mirvish, which is where the Broadway touring casts though, so it makes it more reasonable.

      1. Stephanie*

        “Is that fiddle player?”
        “No, it’s piccolo player.”
        “‘Ow can ya tell?”
        “It’s pipin’ hot!”

        Interestingly enough, my first exposure to that musical was in an Opera Appreciation class. Apparently it’s a weighty enough baritone role that (some) opera companies are lending credence to it.

      2. Jen RO*

        For some reason, this is one I didn’t like… maybe because I listened to the movie soundtrack and they are actors, not singers.

        (Just like the singing in Les Mis, the movie, wasn’t really *bad*, just impossible to compare to the stage version. I just couldn’t listen to Russel Crowe after hearing Philip Quast for so long.)

        1. Stephanie*

          Stage version is definitely better. I think a really powerful bass-baritone/baritone is required for Sweeney Todd…which Johnny Depp definitely is not.

          I enjoyed the movie, but the singing did seem kind of tinny.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yeah, the only actor in the movie who was a professional singer was the woman who played Lucy. But overall they did okay.

            I love to bellow “Epiphany” in the car. I’m not a baritone, but I LOVE that song. :)

            1. Stephanie*

              They all deserve to die, tell ya why, Mrs. Lovett, tell ya why…

              I love the transition from that to “A Little Priest.”

    7. Schuyler*

      Here are some of the musicals I’ve seen that I particularly enjoyed:

      -25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee: This one was a fun show.
      -Anything Goes: I enjoyed this one a lot too, and would definitely see it again. The music is great and the story is
      -Brigadoon: I’ve only seen it once, and it feels a bit extra sappy, but I still enjoyed it a lot and would love to see it again.
      -Mary Poppins: This was a fun show. I love the movie, too.
      -My Fair Lady: While the main male character makes my blood boil every time, I still love this one.
      -Oklahoma: I got a chance to see it last year with the 10 minute dance interlude that is usually taken out, and it was marvelous!
      -The Light in the Piazza: This has a lovely score, different from a lot of musicals that are in production in the last several years; it’s almost operatic to me.
      -Ragtime: I get the idea that this isn’t a widely appreciated musical, but I thought it was fantastic. It’s a sung-through work (which means there’s little to no dialogue, it’s all taking place through song), but the production I saw was wonderful and the music was great. Not staged often, though.
      -Rent: I liked this more than Les Mis, but I’m not a *huge* fan of musicals that are sung through… Rent isn’t my favorite musical, but I’ve seen it a couple times and liked it (well enough to see it twice!)
      -The Sound of Music: Though I like the film–it’s my favorite movie–more than the two productions I’ve seen, I’m planning to see it again in a few months at Lyric Opera.
      -Thoroughly Modern Millie: I thought this was fun. Not the best musical I’ve ever seen, but I enjoyed it.
      -Wicked: My favorite; luckily it was running here for a few years when I moved to Chicago. I love the music in this, and there’s a lot of comedy, too. If you get a chance to see that one, I recommend it.

    8. Worker Bee*

      Les Mis, Lion King the list goes on and on. Even tho this wont find any audience since it is a German speaking production only, I need to mention it because it is my absolute favorite musical. It is called dance of the vampires (YouTube: Tanz der Vampire) I love the stage settings, the music, the costumes and the dances. And this has been runnin for years before the second vampire hype (as in twilight etc.)

  41. Maggie*

    Question…what happens to funds employees contribute towards HSA/FSA cards when the employees are terminated? I was let go last month but Former Job is saying all the money I paid towards the HSA card is no longer mine. “Too bad, so sad” is their attitude.

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      I believe they are incorrect. You cannot continue to contribute money towards it, but any money already in there is yours. Period. Who is telling you this? If it’s not HR, contact them immediately.

    2. Lore*

      I think it does vary by company, at least for FSAs–HSA may be different. I know at mine, your year’s whole allotment becomes available 1/1. So you can spend money you haven’t technically deposited yet, and if you leave the company “owing” money you don’t have to repay it. But the trade off is that if you leave with money in the account, you forfeit it. That’s leaving voluntarily though–I would imagine you’d retain it for the length of your severance if you were let go.

    3. Katie*

      When I was laid off a year ago, I had to spend all the funds by date x. In past job changes, I had to spend all the money before I left the organization.

      1. Maggie*

        They are saying I had to spend my contribution by my termination date. The termination was a total surprise when it happened & I had not had any health care expenses yet.

    4. fposte*

      From what I’m seeing very cursorily, FSAs are subject to forfeiture but HSAs are not–options (which may depend on the vendor) include keeping it there, rolling it into another account, and cashing it out (which is a taxable event).

      Call the actual HSA provider. It may not even matter what your employer thinks if you can get things straight with them.

      1. Maggie*

        I called the Plan Administrator, they will be returning my unused funds to Former Job in about 2 months. I sent Former Job an email requesting they forward my refund on to me. Hopefully they will. It is, after all, my money.

    5. AnonHR*

      There is a difference. Your contributions to an HSA should be yours as far as I know. If your HR is telling you otherwise, contact the HSA administrator directly and see what you can find out.

      If it was an FSA, you can still get reimbursement for any expenses incurred before your termination date, but the rest is forfeited. It typically goes back into the plan, which means that your funds hedge against losses the company could incur from employees who spent their full yearly election in January but then got fired in February before they contributed it all (there are a couple of other options, too, like they could use it to pay plan admin fees or pay out everyone in the plan a small amount).

      But, if it is an FSA, and you didn’t use the amount you’d already contributed, and your employer has over 50 employees, you should be offered the FSA under COBRA, which some companies don’t realize. You lose the tax benefit for future contributions, but it allows you some more time to rack up expenses to spend the funds on. If you want to take serious advantage of it, not only could you use those funds, but you could actually use the rest of your yearly election, no matter what you already contributed, the first month you pay for it under COBRA and then drop it. (Yours Truly, An Ex-COBRA Commander :])

          1. fposte*

            Okay, the “but” made me unsure. Wow, I had no idea about the COBRA thing with FSAs! Good to know. Thanks for the info.

            1. AnonHR*

              It was rambly :). The “but” was for the “you forfeit your money when you leave BUT you might be able to get it back”

      2. vvondervvoman*

        This explains why I got a notification for COBRA eligbilty when I enrolled in an FSA but declined the medical coverage. I panicked and emailed hr thinking I messed up declining it.

  42. Katie*

    Want your advice on following up with a hiring manager.
    In February a manager from OldCompany approached me about joining their team. OldCompany is a vendor to NewCompany, and I’ve had a lot of contact with OldCompany since joining NewCompany. The jobs sounds like a great fit, I loved OldCompany, and wouldn’t have left if it wasn’t for layoffs.
    Things seemed to progress smoothly for about a month, I had coffee with the hiring manager, a phone interview with the hiring manager’s manager, sent in my references. The next steps on their end were to set up a formal interview with the team and post the job. That was almost two weeks ago, and I’ve heard nothing about interviews and I haven’t seen the posting online. I do know that they talked to two of my references already, most recently early this week. So I know I’m still in the running, I just want to get the process moving.
    Since OldCompany is a vendor, I was required to disclose that I’m interviewing because of our ethics regulations, my current manager knows that I’m interviewing, as a do several of my coworkers. While my current manager is very supportive, they’re also slowly transitioning my work away from me. I’m anxious that the new job won’t work out, and that I’m working myself out of my current position. On top of that NewCompany is about to reorganize, and it’s hard to have conversations about where I would fit in after the reorg since so many people know I’m pursuing an outside opportunity.
    So here’s my question, how frequently should I follow up with the hiring manager? We’ve been doing quick calls around every other week, initiated by me. I assume that they moving forward on their end, but I’d like confirmation. I know how long these things take, but I’ve already gone through the hiring process with OldCompany once, and this is definitely taking longer.

    1. Graciosa*

      Take a look at some of Alison’s posts about candidate time versus employer time. This subject is pretty well covered, but I’ll give you a summary.

      Yes, you want it to move faster. No, there is nothing you can do to make that happen. The hiring company should be setting the expectations in terms of contact – if you don’t know, ask – but reaching out more frequently than expected is risky, and can make you look pesky or desperate, so you really need to be careful here. Learn to manage your anxiety about the process so you don’t drive yourself crazy or torpedo your chances.

      Good luck.

      1. Katie*

        I know, and I agree. I just wanted someone to tell me something different from the obvious. Since I worked at the company before, I have decent understanding of their process. I think there’s some delay in posting the vacancy. Venting here helped.

  43. IronMaiden*

    Dan’s post upthread about flying to Australia got me thinking. Do any of y’all meet up? Has anyone met an AAM-er in real life?

    2. Jen RO*

      There are a bunch of threads about meetups in the LinkedIn group. (See the blog sidebar for a link.)

      If anyone happens to travel to Bucharest, Romania, coffee is on me!

      1. AVP*

        I wish! A Balkan Grand Tour is on my bucket list…maybe we can do an apartment swap if you ever get your USA road trip wish!

    3. Fiona*

      I’m going to my first Twin Cities AAM meetup next week. I’ll let you know how it goes (I’m sure it will be awesome).

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Tuesday, March 11, 6:00. Dunn Brothers on Lake Street and the River Road (next to the Longfellow Grill). Yay!

    6. fposte*

      There was a Chicago meetup and I missed it :-(. (Not actually in Chicago but might have been able to drag myself in.)

  44. a.n.o.n.*

    So, as I stated in last week’s open thread, I emailed the CEO of Company A to see if the job is still available. Haven’t heard anything yet, but I know he’s pretty busy with something over there at the moment so I’m not too worried – yet. I plan to email him again next week to say I’m still interested and that I’ll be launching a new job search sometime next month. Hopefully that will prompt him to call and not put it off like he did last time. That’s how I ended up at Company B.

    I’m now starting to wonder what kind of job I’ll apply for if I can’t get the one I want at Company A. The reason I want this job is because I’ve discovered I no longer want to do what I did for nearly 20 years, and it’s working in the same size company as my former job which means more freedom and independence, a more open atmosphere, and lots of different, challenging things to do. I’ve also determined there’s one other aspect of my former job I no longer want either. So now I’m stumped as to what I should be looking for. I’m guessing it would be pretty hard to find the type of job Company A has given the industry and the size of company I want to work for.

    Just gotta say, it’s really challenging to go to a job I dread everyday. I did it for the last several years of my former job (I had my reasons for staying). Sucks that I’m at that point after just a month at the new job.

    1. Katie*

      I wouldn’t let him know you’re launching a job search. That’ll just inform him that this opportunity is the farthest along, and that he can take his sweet time.

  45. MovingRightAlong*

    Kitten Friday!

    I just started a new position this week and for the first time in years, I don’t feel like I’m at a deadend. I have to credit Alison and this blog: they’ve been invaluable.

  46. Is This Legal*

    I’ve never found a job through a network or lead. I have had 4 jobs in total, 2 minimum wage and 2 professional. All I found on my own. The profession once I found through LinkedIn and the minimum wage were through company’s website.

    Here is the irony though, at each of these jobs I’ve brought in someone where I literally gave them the job.

    1. meesh*

      I’ve never been offered a job through network or a lead but I have interviewed multiple times via networking… I think thats worse!

      congrats though!

  47. Small Raises*

    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to word asking for a bigger yearly raise? Or more specifically, what to ask for in order to achieve a larger percentage (like I’ll do this, this or this)?

    I have asked this before, but I’m not sure if it was taken under consideration or maybe I didn’t ask correctly. I just don’t know what else I can do – my raise was less than last year, but it’s also always consistently less than my other coworkers. However, I know I had really good results this past year (completing projects) while my other coworkers have not. People who are not in my group have told me that, so I don’t particularly assume it is me being biased toward myself. I feel like I can work myself to death and not get anywhere – I’m often the go to person to work extra, work weekends, or travel since I don’t have kids.

    On the other hand, I’m absolutely certain I’m not anywhere near my boss’s favorite. I just don’t know what to do now. Apologies for the rant – just depressed after my raise! Any thoughts are helpful – even if it’s just get a new job :(.

    1. Re:*

      Go in and explain to your boss exactly what contributions you made to the company over the year, how the company has succeeded because of you, and say therefore I am requesting x amount of a raise this year.

      (Don’t say “I deserve a raise, I work so hard, you guys need me!” or start threatening or ranting)

      has nothing to do with being your boss’s “favorite”

    2. fposte*

      “like I’ll do this, this or this”–well, don’t do that :-). “If you give me a raise, I will do this thing that I’m not doing” really doesn’t work, and it undersells your current value.

      I think you need to have a conversation with your manager about your work and compensation. You can’t just say “How come everybody else is getting more than me?” but you can say “My completion rate is well above the average for my unit, and I was surprised that that didn’t seem to be recognized in my last pay raise. Can we discuss what kind of performance the organization is looking for for a x% raise?”

      I do think that “look for another job” is a likely piece of advice here. If they’re genuinely shorting you on raises, that is a statement about how they view the value of your contribution, and it’s not likely to change just for the asking. However, it’s worth considering: would you be happy with these raises if you didn’t know what other people got (considering that other people aren’t always the most truthful anyway), and can you really rule out the possibility that there are other significant factors–lower start rate, different hire times, etc.–that are relevant to the discrepancy?

      1. Small Raises*

        Hmm, I really like that phrasing! Thank you; it was what I was looking for!

        I think “look for another job” is true, too. It’s just always difficult to come to that! And I think I wouldn’t be happy with the raises, no. I think I can rule out the possibilities as well – almost everyone makes more than me and was hired later than me. Plus, I asked for a salary adjustment, and it went up to HR two years ago and they agreed I was about 20% underpaid. So it is looking like “find a new job” is the case :(.

        Thank you so much for your comments! I will definitely use that phrasing in during my review :).

        1. Chriama*

          So you asked for a salary adjustment, they told you you were underpaid, and they still haven’t adjusted your pay? Your company has told you everything you need to know about how they value you. Seriously, find another job.

          If I’m reading this wrong and they adjusted your salary but now aren’t giving you equivalent raises, I think you may be able to have a decent conversation come raise time next year. “I know market rate for this position is x, and I’m currently getting x-y. This year I contributed in ways a,b,c, so I would like a raise to amount z.”

          I don’t know how to have a convo with your boss about the general pattern of getting smaller raises, so I would focus on the above. Ask for what you’re worth, and the subtext is always that you’ll look for a company willing to pay that if they don’t give it to you.

          1. Small Raises*

            Yes to the first paragraph :(. I’ve been waiting for over 2 years. They say it is because they are doing a full site review (my company is quite large), but still, 2 years. I’m not sure how it is typically done here, though.

            I did present the information for a salary adjustment two years ago. Whenever I follow up, there is no update.

            I guess it is time! :(

            Thanks for the advice! I will try it again this year as well and see how it goes while looking around for other jobs :).

  48. Amazing Interview*

    I had an awesome interview earlier this week with an organization I really want to work with, one of the best I have ever had. They told me they will let me know about next steps by next week.

    I sent the senior person whom I interviewed with a thank you email, and got a response back! She said, “Thank you for the “thank you,” It was a pleasure meeting you. Stay tuned; we shall see what we shall see.” Best, xxx”

    I know Alison says there are no “signs” but does this sound like a good letter or a bad letter?? Next week cannot come quick enough!!

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, I think you’re still looking for a sign and I don’t think it is one–I think it means that they’ll be in touch when they decide, and nothing more.

      1. Re:*

        Thanks fposte :) It felt neutral to me too, although I don’t feel out of the running either!

        1. fposte*

          I’m with Ruffingit in thinking it was slighly strangely phrased, so I would probably have taken some time to parse it too. My guess is that it was just somebody straining to avoid suggesting anyway and turning things slightly weird as a result.

      2. Ruffingit*

        Agreed. I also think it’s weird personally for her to say “Stay tuned; we shall see what we shall see.”

        The best thing you can do for yourself mentally is to move on from anything that isn’t “Here’s your job offer.” It’s hard, I know. But once you start doing that, you will end up with a ton of peace of mind because you don’t read into things, you just take them at face value and move forward.

        Best of luck in the job search!

  49. Anon this time*

    My partner got a new job across the country and started last month. For a variety of reasons, it doesn’t make sense for me to move there until next spring/summer (current work contract and local obligations).

    I guess I have two questions:

    A. When do I tell my boss?
    B. when should I start a job search in New Location, bearing in mind that it’s a 6 hour flight minimum from here? Should I just plan to start after I relocate?

    And if anyone has tips on keeping a relationship going strong with separation like this, those would be great too. We have Skype and plan monthly visits (the new job pays well, better than the old one).

    1. Katie*

      OMG don’t tell your boss until you have an offer! I disclosed a job search to my boss because it was required by our ethics guidelines (I’m interviewing with a vendor that I was managing – had to get rid of conflict of interest) and almost immediately my phase out started. I’m optimistic about the new opportunity, but if it doesn’t work out. I’m SOL.

    2. TFG*

      Re: long-distance, Skype and in-person visits are great, it really does make a big difference, I think , to see the person and not just hear a voice when you are separated. But don’t count out old-fashion snail mail letters. Maybe it was just because our long distance was a military deployment, but it was always so great to check the mail and have a letter there, even when we did get to occasionally Skype or have a phone call.

      But try doing date nights where you both start the same movie on Netflix at the same time and have Skype on while it plays and eat dinner or some such thing.

      Send surprise care packages too, just little things he likes to show you’re thinking of him. Best of luck!

    3. AnonHR*

      I don’t deal much with contracts, but if you are working through the end of yours and planning on leaving no matter what at a certain date shortly it’s over, it seems like you could tell your boss anytime to give them some time to plan.

      I like TFG’s movie date night idea, I used to “watch tv” with a friend who lived far away, we’d both watch the same show and IM each other throughout it. It was actually a lot of fun.

    4. AmyNYC*

      Start networking now – look on LinkedIn for your college alumni group in New City, or email the college alumni directly if there isn’t one. Ask mentors/higher ups (just not in your current office) if they know anyone in New City.
      I assume you’ll be visiting your SO, try to meet someone in your field for lunch when you do so they see you as a person not just an email.
      Start APPLYING 3-4 months before the move.

    5. Chriama*

      Start networking now! Also reach out to contacts in the area and let them know you’re looking. Long distance job searches are hard, but you’re moving in a few months anyway so I think you can start applying now with your new address. Just add a line about when you’ll be moving to the area.

  50. TFG*

    I applied for a great job that seemed like kind of a reach after spending the past year and a half looking for a new job and getting nowhere.

    Shortly after, my company encouraged me to apply to this great training program that I was accepted into that requires a week out of state and the rest to be done online.

    The job I applied for ended up moving quickly, very quickly, and have been doing a great job at keeping me in the loop. I’ve already interviewed and have been in touch with the person who would be my manager fairly frequently (when he initiated contact) so while I know it’s not a guarantee, there is a chance I’ll get this job and they said they’d have their final decision for me by the end of next week.

    The training program for my current job starts in about two weeks. *If* I got this other job, how do I handle this? My current boss knows I’ve been thinking about leaving (he and my department are great but they know this just isn’t what I want to do forever and the company is notorious for how underpaid we all are) and I even asked when they offered this opportunity for me what would happen if I wasn’t able to complete it.

    However, I never explicitly said I’d applied for other jobs and may not be employed here anymore by the time the 6 week long course ended. I think one of the reasons they want to send me on this trip is to help encourage me to stay.

    If I get the job I’d tell them right away, I don’t want to go on this trip and then come back and yell “PSYCH! I’M OUT!” but they’ve already paid my tuition and travel expenses for this program. Is it likely they then charge me for what they paid? I can’t imagine they’d let me spend my last month here after I’ve given notice being trained for something I will be doing for another company. Since I was accepted as an individual but also kind of as a rep for my company can they bar me from going to it at all, even if I end up having to pay for it myself?

    I’m like 98% sure there’s now realistic way to ask the new company this so I’m not planning on doing so, but if I got an offer could I potentially tell my new employer I was accepted into this program that would also be a big help in my role for that company and see if they’d be willing to let me attend underneath them instead?

    1. Chriama*

      Training employees is a cost of doing business. They can’t put that charge on you. It would be different if it was tuition reimbursement or something, but this is pretty clear to me. As for going to the training: it’s likely that they can get some money back or credit for another employee so I doubt they’ll give it to you if you’re no longer working for them. Letting you go on your own dime is a maybe, complicated by the fact that you’d be traveling during your notice period.

      Is it possible to work out the start date so that you do this training in between jobs? I can’t imagine what kind of training would require a company sponsor, although the cost might be prohibitive.

      1. TFG*

        Thanks so much for your response! I was thinking if I’m offered this job and they ask about start time explaining the situation and seeing if they’d rather me put off my start date to do it or if they’d rather have me start as soon as possible. I was hoping to give 4 weeks notice to my current office because of how tedious and long their hiring process is. Most of the course is online and the time out of state is the first week so it’d fall right around that mark.

        As far as the company sponsoring, the details of my acceptance and the arrangements made and all that were done through the company, so it wasn’t really made clear to me if I am going as T, who happens to work for ABC Company, or if I’m going as ABC Company rep T, if that makes sense? So I don’t know if the program can or would withdraw my individual acceptance and replace me with another employee or if I was accepted just as me. and go independently or perhaps as XYZ Company rep T.

        Financially it’d be a stretch but I can’t imagine it being okay to suggest to a brand new employer that they pay for me to go to training before I even start for them.

        Also, current company booked my hotel room and flight, so if they just cancel those reservations and I’d have no way to get there or a place to stay.

        I felt really torn about agreeing to the training because I didn’t want to be in this awkward position of seeming like I’m taking advantage of their time and resources for me to not even stay working for them long enough to use the skills. But, I knew that no job is guaranteed and I’d be so upset if I missed this opportunity and didn’t get the other job. Plus I couldn’t refuse without giving a reason and “I’m hoping I get to resign before then” wasn’t a viable reason to give. But now I don’t know how to navigate the situation without burning bridges or making the new company think I’m flaky.

        1. Chriama*

          I agree that it would be hard to ask the new company to pay for that training, but asking about the start date is perfectly ok.

          As for the training itself, if you really want to go just reach out to the training company yourself. I really find it unlikely that they’d stop you from going without a company sponsor unless there are certification rules or something. They probably only care about getting paid. If it turns out they really do need you to represent a company, pay for it yourself and ask company b if they would let you go on their behalf (letting you use their name is more reasonable than paying for you to go, IMO).

          Basically: if you really want to go to the training even if you have to pay for it yourself (including transportation and lodging), try the following:
          1) contact the trainer and ask about the logistics of paying for yourself. Find out if they need you to go on behalf of a company or if you can just attend as long as it’s paid for.
          2) Negotiate with the new company about the start date. If you need a company sponsor for the training ask if you can attend on behalf of them (make it clear you’re not asking them to pay for it, just to let you use their name to attend)
          3) When you announce your resignation, ask your company about the training. Maybe they’ll let you go. Maybe they’ll split the cost with you for a longer notice period. Maybe they’ll sell you the hotel/transportation so you’re paying the corporate rate

          If training is something that’s important to you in general, also be sure to ask the new company about professional development opportunities as part of the overall interview discussions.

          1. TFG*

            Thank you very much, that all makes a lot of sense and feeling like I have an idea of what to do just significantly cut my stress levels over this!

  52. WorkerBee*

    I teach at a private language school. They work me six days a week and treat labor laws like gentle suggestions. I asked my boss (two months in advance) for two days’ vacation to go on a trip with some friends. (We have Thursday and Friday off because of the government, plus I have Saturday off on normal weekends, and I want the Sunday and Monday. Monday can be covered, but Sunday is a problem.) She says she can’t do it because no one wants to cover my classes on a holiday weekend. No big deal, I wouldn’t want to do that either.

    I asked if maybe I could move my classes to another day (which practically every teacher has done at some point this year). No, because reasons. (Seriously, they couldn’t come up with any good reason why.) This school is already making me work through all the stats up to the May holiday with no extra compensation – not in the US, for the record. I also know for a fact that the schedules have not been made up yet for that period. Since it’s a holiday weekend, probably none of the students will show up anyway, so I’d basically be sacrificing my entire vacation for 2-3 people and we’d probably wind up watching cartoons.

    If they want several bitter, resentful teachers over one day of classes that can easily be moved, well, I just don’t know what to say. Not really asking for advice, just wanted to rant about my dumbass company.

    1. Jen RO*

      No advice, just wanted to say I was curious what country you’re in, I clicked through to your blog, I liked it and I subscribed :) Fingers crossed that your employer stops being a jerk…

      1. FRRibs*

        Ditto on the blog. I live in artillery range of the border and I always get a chuckle when the weather report says things like “It’s 40 degrees here…and -20 in Montreal.” (This in July.)

    2. matcha123*

      You’re in Japan, amiright?
      I’ve never worked at those types of places, but I’m pretty sure they have to give you the government days off either on those days or as substitute holidays.
      Since I can imagine the type of place you’re working at, I wouldn’t plan on taking any time off on major holidays. If you can switch to a different place, I’d recommend that. Eikaiwa places really don’t care about you, they don’t care about your mental health and they don’t care about your vacations. Unless something’s specified in the Japanese contract, you can’t do much of anything. And of course your Japanese coworkers will just take it in stride when their holidays are cut.

      While I’m not in the same exact industry, I feel ‘ya!

  53. Tips for interviewing university students?*

    My situation is a little weird: I’m on the exec team of a university association and we’re looking for next year’s team. This year I had problems with some members on the team not following through with work, not answering their emails, and basically acting as if they didn’t exist between meetings.

    I think our process will be good at screening for skills (I’ve learned a lot from Alison about testing people on the tasks they’d actually have to carry out), but how do you screen for “work ethic” or “fit”?

    University students have no references (large classes so their profs don’t know them, many have never worked or are from different countries so we can’t really contact their former employers), and the closest thing that comes to previous experience is if they have been part of other clubs or on event committees.

    So my question is: suggestions for interviewing university students for an association?
    Follow up: how would you screen for fit or work ethic?
    Follow follow up: what’s a decent proxy for checking references?

      1. Audiophile*

        That is unusual. I didn’t get my first job until I graduated high school and was well into my second semester in college, which made it difficult to get interviews, because most of my peers had been working since age 16, and I was 19.

        1. Anon*

          I didn’t have my first job until college either (university housing office), and I think they only hired me (with no previous experience) because I could work full time (because I wasn’t taking summer classes). Everyone else was part-time

      2. Chriama*

        To clarify, I’m not hiring. I’m a student myself and I’m interviewing people for a university association. It’s like a club — totally volunteer basis. Lots of students join clubs so they have leadership experience for their resumes.

        Also, depending on their background, lots of students have never had jobs before. If they had wealthy parents and didn’t have to worry about saving up for college, why work in high school and interfere with all the scholarship opportunities (grades, advanced courses, volunteering, etc)? I think your frame of reference is a little limited if you can make a blanket statement like that. In my case, not only would I miss out on some great potential candidates, but those are likely to be the strongest ones if they really did a lot of leadership things in high school. People who have to worry about paying for tuition aren’t that eager to put 10+ hours/week into an unpaid activity.

    2. fposte*

      How about adding on a different dimension? Involve successful current students. Have them recommend people they think would be good; have them advise you on processes. If you can get a recommendation chain going, that’ll save you a lot of work (my father’s retirement home staffed its dining room, all high-school kids, based on teacher and current staff recommendation).

      And you know, you can specifically ask about work ethic. “Since we’re hiring young people, a lot of them have no employment record for us to go on; it’s therefore important to us to find out if you’ve been able to hold down a responsibility and demonstrate a commitment. Can you tell us about a time when you’ve done that?”

      1. Chriama*

        I totally intend to casually ask around. There are a couple students that I know have been recommended by profs for other things I’m involved in, so they’re at the top of my list.

        Sorry if I didn’t make it clear that this is an extracurricular activity. They’ll be self-governing, and I’m having a hard time applying typical workplace advice to this scenario because their success is basically dependent on their own interest.

        I know things change and someone can seem totally interested and then just fall apart during the semester because of classes or whatever, but all the problems I’ve seen this year would have been prevented with better screening. They just don’t have the right mindset for the position, but I don’t know how to suss that out.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, yeah, if it’s for a volunteer situation what you’re describing is pretty common. I don’t even think it’s just because people lack job experience–it’s just that this is how a lot of people treat volunteer situations.

          1. Chriama*

            I get that. I’ve just poured a lot of work into this association and I want to find people who are that interested and devoted to it as well. Do you have suggestions for interview questions? I plan on asking higher level things like what they hope to achieve in the roles and what their vision for the association is, but what kind of situational/behavioural questions would be good to ask?

            1. fposte*

              I still might try the “tell me about a time when you had responsibility/had to make a commitment and deal with it under competition for your attention” thing–the value there is not only that you’ll learn about their experience, but also you’re signaling to them that it’s what’s expected.

  54. FD*

    The timing is perfect!

    Okay, so I’ve been at NewJob since Thanksgiving of last year. Through a series of events, they’re shifting my responsibilities significantly on a trial basis. I’m taking over acting as a controller for our department for our hotel to start with, and if all goes well, will be overseeing our department at four hotels by the end of this month.

    I didn’t feel I could push too much for a bump in title/pay at first because it was a trial basis, but at the end of the month, I hope to be able to show very significant savings to the company due to my work. Would it be reasonable to push for a raise and title change at that point, or do you think it’s too soon since I haven’t completed a full year at my company yet.

    1. fposte*

      I think when there’s a significant expansion in responsibilities, it’s perfectly legitimate to open the possibility of a significant expansion in pay and that you’d regret not raising it. Sounds like you’re quite the success there–go you!

    2. Chriama*

      It depends on what’s important to you. It’s a different job and so presumably commands a different market rate. If you ask right away and get rejected, will you be resentful that you’re not getting paid a fair wage? On the other hand, are you ok with doing the job? At that point it’s easier for you to walk away if they won’t pay you (you can put the increased responsibility on your resume even if you don’t have a title change), and you can show a whole year’s track record as evidence of your value.

      I think you do have a strong case for speaking up if the trial period is successful, and if they say it’s too soon you still have the option of bringing it up at your yearly review.

  55. Reference Check*

    If I want a friend to do a reference check for me, what should I have them ask? What sort of questions would a hiring manager normally ask a former supervisor?

    Context: I quit a job last summer two days before my official end date because I was going to have a breakdown if I tried to push myself two more days. (It was NOT a good situation or place to work for me.) I know this was a crappy thing to do, and that based on that my supervisor would probably give me an pretty awful reference. However, during the vast majority of the summer, she was extremely happy with my work and consistently praised me and gave me additional responsibilities. She also said she’d be happy to have me come back and work for her this summer. I’m curious to know what she would actually say if I used her as a reference in my upcoming job search. I’d like to have a friend (or possibly my dad, who has hired people before) call her posing as a hiring manager to see what she’ll say about me, but I don’t know what they should ask. Are there typical questions to ask during a reference check?

    1. bev*

      Alison has answered this question on the blog before. You would have to go through the archives by most relevant tag.

  56. matcha123*

    I’ve always wanted to try and participate in these, but it’s hard to do from Japan! I love reading this site at work and I’m wondering if I could get some advice.

    I’m looking for a new job, and when I quit the place I’m working at now, I’m wondering what the best way to tell them about the main reason is. Really, the salary is too low; the “responsibilities” are meh, and the ability to move up is severed restricted by me being a foreigner.

    Because people here in Japan typically get their first job straight out of university, and because most Japanese parents pay for their child’s university and housing, base wages start low and are unrelated to ability.

    I get that in an American context it would be strange to bring up salary because of one’s financial situation v. ability. But in this case, I wonder if along with talking about my abilities (only staff with translation experience/proven results related to translation/and a lot more) along with salary?

    Honestly, I don’t even make enough to save and I’m working another part-time job just so I can make an extra $100 to put away. Unlike the Japanese staff, I have university loans and other higher living costs; I can’t live with my parents (like they do) to save money. If my salary was based on ability and they decided that my ability amounted to X, I could deal with that. But, it’s not and, despite working 40hrs a week, they classify me as “part-time” and say that part-timers cannot get raises.

    If you guys work with anyone from another country, please be kind to them! Sure they may have chosen to work in your country, but it’s incredibly stressful to work in a foreign country, even if you speak the language. If you politely explain things to them, I’m sure they would appreciate it. I know that hearing *why* Japanese people do XYZ is a lot more beneficial than hearing “Because this is Japan and that’s how we do it.”

    1. rollcake*

      I’ve never commented on one of these posts before, but since I also have work experience in Japan (although it was with JET, where the situation is a little different from other flavors of eikaiwa…) I thought I might weigh in.

      If you’re definitely leaving the company once you’ve found a better position, then you could probably be honest with them about their having kept you as part-time in order to deny you benefits other workers are getting and the low pay. Who knows, it may make them treat their next foreign employee better. Or it could just remind them why the position has a high turnover.

      Make sure that you bring up any concerns about these issues when you interview for your next job, to see if they’re going to treat you like a proper full-time employee just like everyone else!

      Good luck! I had a series of unfortunate events trying to find the non-eikaiwa job I wanted after I left JET, even with work experience and N1 under my belt, so I ended up returning to the states. I hope your search goes better!

      1. matcha123*

        Thanks for the reply! Don’t know if you’ll see mine, but…
        I was also on JET, but not as an ALT. And I have N1. And no one here knows what it is. :(
        My company has gone through a number of foreigners…and a ton more Japanese. I’ve talked with my supervisor? about things and if he’s sympathetic, I can’t really tell. There’s just so much miscommunication between the Japanese staff and us Western staff. I’ve been spending months thinking about the best way to present my issues.

        I’ll be needing to make my way back to the states soon, too… (._.)

  57. LauraG*

    So…we have had a lot of changes happening around my workplace recently. As a result, some duties got shifted and people have taken on new things. As we’re learning the new things, unfortunately, some old things have been missed, so this led to my boss emailing our team about everything that’s been missed. Now, most of the things that have been missed have traditionally been the duty of Ben.

    I looked over the list, did my thing, and went to Ben and said I would do task X (filing some paperwork). It’s not difficult, just time-consuming, but it can be done and interrupted easily. He said he needed to finish something before I could, so I said to hand them to me when that was done and I could easily handle that filing.

    That was Monday. Tuesday, I got caught up in something else and forgot. Wednesday, I was out sick. Thursday, I played catch up, realized I never received X, so I emailed Ben and told him I’d have time to do X on Friday.

    I walked out of my office a few minutes later to see him doing task X.

    Now, if X was the only thing left and I saw that all the other stuff on the list had been done, I would have thought he got caught up! But it’s not. There’s still other things that need to be done.

    My question: do I bring this up? I’m not his boss, but I am senior to him, if that makes sense. I feel like I’m just tattling if I say something to our boss, but it bothers me that on a list of at least 5 things, he took the time on one I said I would do so he could focus on the others.

    1. fposte*

      It’s annoying, but I don’t think it’s report-worthy. In the future, I’d put a deadline on your “I could do this” window, so that if you didn’t get the stuff from Ben by the window’s close he’d know it was on him.

      Has Ben’s direct manager realized that the dropped balls have been largely in Ben’s court? That’s more of an issue.

      1. LauraG*

        I think she’s aware of it, but I don’t know how much of it is something I could have stepped in and helped/done sooner.

        I could try the idea of giving him a deadline for my help. Thanks!

    2. Chriama*

      I second the deadline on task handoffs. It could be he forgot to get it to you and then felt awkward about handing it off so late, and by the time you emailed him again he was almost done. You should probably mention something to him and also tell him “in the future, I’ll need you to hand stuff off to me by end of day”. If the problem persists then he has issues with organizing his work and you can use Alison’s post this week to talk to your boss (if it’s impacting your work, of course!)

  58. the SAHM Letter Writer!*

    Hi, I wrote this letter a year ago and I’d like to report that I have a PT position that I gained through my one of my contacts through my high level volunteer work:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2013/02/job-searching-after-being-a-stay-at-home-mom.html

    However, the job is temporary at a large organization, and I’m also underemployed (i.e. I can do more than what I am doing, and I am always looking for more work). The title is below what I did before (I know that is the price you pay when you’ve been a SAHM out of work for years) and not exactly what I what I want to be doing long term.

    What is the best way to explain this in an interview?
    I figured to be doing *something* was better than nothing and it would at least get me a foot in the door at this very large organization (where I would definitely work if the right opportunity came along).

    My boss likes me and I like her, but this position is grant funded and, as I said, temporary – I’m there to fix some temporary problems and I don’t see a long-term role there. She knows I’m looking.

    In a way, it almost is like a paid “returnship” like I mentioned in my original letter….

    1. Ursula*

      I was a stay at home mom for 10 years before I went back to paid work. I did a temporary gig at my former company, which allowed me to apply for jobs as an internal candidate. I got an admin job and, through being agressive with cross-training, have an analyst position that I love. My advice to you is to keep your eye out for projects/tasks in your company that you are interested in and jump at the opportunity to show that you can either learn or do them. Good luck!

      1. the SAHM Letter Writer!*

        Did your company offer cross training or did you find your own (in person or online?)
        Thanks!

  59. The IT Manager*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for books or long articles on how to work on and manage a virtual team? My team members are scattered all across the country and most work from home. Even those that don’t are not co-located with any other team members so we do all our collaborating over phone, email, IM, and conferencing software.

    Despite that this is becoming very common, I haven’t yet found any books about how to do this well. I’m personally hoping for scientific self-help like The Power of Habit. I like understanding the background, research and getting advice on how to do better at it.

    1. A Jane*

      Unfortunately, I haven’t found anything specific to virtual teams. If anything, I read many sites with a productivity and tech focus (lifehacker, lifehack, etc), and I try to apply what they talk about there.

      Also, The Power of Habit is an amazing book! Highly recommend to the world.

    2. Lisa*

      You need a central database to assign tasks and compile notes that are not all in emails. I love Basecamp as you can have project and people with their own to-dos and notes for every to-do. You can put dates on things, but you don’t have to.

    3. vvondervvoman*

      My husband is on a remote team, and they use Teamwork PM. There’s a fee associated, but there are free options like Trello, Basecamp, etc.

      From what I see on the outside, the things that really work are using those tools, along with Skype for conference calls. Also, they get together to go to a yearly conference in their field, makes it more personable to hang out with someone you talk to daily.

      Some things they have done around hiring to me are a mixed bag to me. Because hiring remote folks is a big leap in trust, they have hired 4-5 contractors and offered full time gigs to the one they liked.
      But on the other hand, they also have 4 family members/personal referrals and it’s difficult to hold those folks accountable (not for day to day stuff, but more like overarching skill sets that should have improved in the last 3 years but haven’t).
      The only person who didn’t fall into either category is my husband. They put him through a 4-5 hour phone skills test after his initial interview, and then hired him FT exempt.

      Having a solid team from the get-go is even more important in this setting, so hiring is probably where I’d start. Interview questions should include items like work habits, set-up at home, how they will manage the balance between personal/professional time etc. It took my husband a good year to solidify his at-home routine, but he had the work ethic to always finish his tasks, even if it meant 60-90 hour weeks.

  60. Short Fuse*

    TGIF! I am seeking some advice regarding feedback I got from my boss in my annual review. She raved about my work, experience, willingness to jump in and learn new things, and general expertise.

    It was not unexpected, but the only thing she dinged me for was that I can be very opinionated and some people find me unapproachable and/or intimidating. One director, who I really like and get along with well, told my boss that he thinks I’m kind of a hard-ass, but that he really respects my expertise.

    I do know this about myself. I don’t mind being challenged or questioned, because in my line of work you need to consider things from all angles to find the best solution. But I have little patience for discussing the same thing over and over and over again after a decision has been made, and for people who won’t speak up and/or ask questions, and then complain later.

    I told my boss that I am aware of this, even though it probably doesn’t seem like it, and that my issues with being warm and fuzzy are usually a function of my stress level. Early in a project, there’s time for hand-holding and soothing. When deadlines are looming, that stuff falls by the wayside and I’m more like, “This is what we’re going to do, and you’re just going to have to deal with it.”

    Does anyone have some advice for how to cultivate a warm and fuzzy side? I’m a cut-the-BS type of person and I struggle with how to deal with people who aren’t.

    1. Chriama*

      I find your description sort of telling. You don’t need to be warm and fuzzy to be approachable, and I doubt people are intimidated by you because you don’t hold their hands. Diplomacy is a useful skill, and I get a sort of contemptuous vibe off of what you wrote here.

      Ok, now to be helpful: you don’t like people complaining about a decision after it’s been made when they didn’t speak up. During those meetings, can you explicitly state that? At the beginning say “once we move forward with a decision we won’t be changing it, so I need everyone who has concerns or suggestions to speak now or forever hold their piece”. Basically make it a habit of encouraging people to speak up at appropriate times and letting them know you won’t be entertaining further discussions at a later date.

      Second: is there a role model you can look to? Your boss, or a coworker or a senior project member? Observe them and also explicitly ask them for advice. If you can’t think of anyone, ask your boss.

      Third: ask your boss for suggestions! They should be giving feedback with suggestions for improvement, not just dumping things on you and telling you to fix them. Bring your own suggestions to the table so you look proactive, but they should be able to point you towards someone or something that can help you.

      1. Short Fuse*

        Hmmm. I certainly did not feel contemptuous, or feel that way when I was writing my post, so even this is valuable feedback. Thank you.

        I’ve discussed this with my boss before when we’ve talked about dealing with people outside our department. But this time there was something about how my co-workers can find me unapproachable. I know who this came from, because I worked with this person almost all of last year on a big project, and we had never worked closely together before. What I find amusing is that she herself is very opinionated, and everyone in my department has a hard time working with her because while she is extremely intelligent, she feels that she is smarter than everyone else, and can be quite condescending to others. She is accustomed to steamrolling over people to get her own way. If I feel strongly enough about something, I will absolutely not back down if I disagree with someone until I feel that my concerns have been addressed. And by that I don’t mean that I dig in my heels and refuse to budge because I’m being obstinate, but that if I think a given course of action will cause issues down the road, I will not cave in and let someone have their own way until I feel confident that the issues I’ve identified can/will be resolved. Or, sometimes it will turn out that something I thought would cause problems actually won’t, and if that’s the case, then I’ll agree to move forward. So I’m sure my co-worker is not accustomed to people pushing back as hard as I will, when I feel it’s appropriate, and that translated to me being unapproachable. My boss asked me for feedback for her evaluation, so I’m sure she asked her for feedback about me. I knew this would probably come up, and I’m not perfect, so I just hoped that she was fair in what she said, and said it with good intentions, as I did for her.

        When I say hand-holding and soothing, I really don’t mean that in a condescending way. I do ERP implementations, and those are huge and overwhelming for people. I get that you’re taking the system they’ve used for a long time, and gotten accustomed to, and replacing it with a gigantic beast that can be very intimidating. So I know that new users need alot of reassurance that the new system will work, and that they’ll be able to learn to use it and continue to do their jobs. So in the beginning, yes, it’s important to spend time helping them get comfortable and build their confidence.

        But as the project moves forward and the launch date approaches, the time for that has passed. The focus needs to be on testing what’s been designed. And — for example — if a user is complaining about not being able to do something, or something being very cumbersome, but in the next breath saying they haven’t done any testing or spent any time in the test environment, then it’s hard for me to be continue to be sympathetic. I empathize with how hard it is to do these projects as a user, because most of the time you still have your other regular job duties to worry about. I’ve been there. But at the end of the day, it’s in the user’s best interests to be active and participate, because it will have a serious impact on their job down the road. And if they’re not active and engaged, but then come back and complain later, that’s what I struggle with.

        1. Jamie*

          I do ERP implementations, and those are huge and overwhelming for people.

          End users should be sending you thank you notes just for not smacking them.

          That is a high stress project, I’ve done it twice and I am sure it’s taken years off the end of my life.

          If I could I’d buy you a drink – I get it.

    2. fposte*

      I’d like to hear Jamie weigh in on this, because I know she’s talked about a similar negotiation.

      I think also that time is less of a factor than it feels like–a softer startup, as the psych folks say, will likely save you some time in the long run with the people who are trying to talk to you about stuff you feel is a done deal. Just a handful of prefacing words can take the edge of “It is what is is” or “The decision has been made.”

      If you deal with animals, it can help to remember that people are animals too :-). You don’t just grab the dog by the scruff of its neck and move it around–you pet it and talk to it and then clip the leash on, and if you omit the petting and talking part you’re going to end up with a pretty anxious dog. (This sounds like I’m saying your co-workers are going to start peeing on the carpet.)

      1. Jamie*

        Very similar actually, although I’ve never been told there was an issue with my being opinionated. Needing to remain approachable under stress is what I get.

        But it’s what everyone who reports to my boss gets and it’s what he admits he’d get if someone were reviewing him. He hires people with a very similar style to him, because he respects it and it works, but he knows there’s room for improvement for all of us.

        I have a two part answer for this – first is my honest feeling that some people need too much hand holding and warm fuzzies in order to work properly. Not most people – and we always need to be professional and civil no matter what is going on (and my boss admits I’m always this, I’m just not always welcoming, if that makes sense.) But some people don’t want to send an email about a problem because you didn’t have time to ask about their weekend or look at pics of their new grand baby…in a perfect world those people wouldn’t be catered to.

        For 3-4 years the running joke would be that I would do the best I could to address this (and I did) but at some point I am who I am and sunny and chatty while the server has a processing block or an upgrade pooped the bed isn’t who I will ever be.

        Part two – what works. We can’t optimize for the ideal world, we need to optimize for the real world. This is something I actually made some major improvements and I’m still amazed at how little effort it took.

        I just made one little change – when buried and frazzled I assumed people knew I was working as hard as I can to get the situation resolved and that was true, but that didn’t mean they felt I had heard them personally.

        No matter how busy I’ll shoot off a quick email thanking them for bringing X to my attention and an eta which may change for resolution.

        When speaking or in email I started going out of my way to let them know I knew it was frustrating for them and I am working to fix it as soon as possible. People hearing that I consider their needs important even while I’m being honest that there are other priorities at the moment went a loooong way.

        And when people would say, “I’m sorry for bothering you again” instead of “it’s okay” by which I meant it was okay but I think came off like yeah, you’re bothering me but that’s fine, I made it clear they were doing me a favor by alerting me to X and it’s not a bother, it’s info I need.

        Which led into reiterating why I need it in email, so I can refer to it and see the screen shot and take care of it asap…so “send me an email” took on a helpful tone rather than the “stop talking to me in person” message I think may have snuck through before.

        Another thing – I have a very expressive face and I am an eyeroller. People can think it’s at them, when it’s at the system or issue. I don’t do that any more and if my bitchface is solidifying I make sure to make a line or two of chit chat about how X is frustrating for all of us – so they don’t take it personally.

        I have my own office and we have a private bathroom – those are my eye rolling spaces.

        And (and I hate advising it and I hate that it works) I make a conscious effort to smile and say hi when greeting people even when marinating in my own stomach acid. I don’t know why this is so important to people, but it puts them at ease.

        This has resulted in my overhearing people talk about how awful X issue was for me because I was working so hard and trying so hard to get everyone back up and running – there was empathy. Before, I’d have been working just as hard but the talk I am sure was about how long things were taking and how people were nervous to ask me for stuff.

        These are the most basic, superficial, no effort changes and I cannot believe how easily this worked.

        I look at it as “non-optional social conventions.” I don’t need this personal stuff from others, but clearly some need it from me so I give it to them even though it doesn’t make sense to me.

        Like birthday cards. I send them to people who send them to me because clearly they mean something to them…but I don’t get it. A text is fine imo…or nothing is okay, too.

        On the intimidating thing. That was an issue for me based more on culture than my personality. In manufacturing there can be an us vs them mentality from some of the people who work in the factory to management and when you add in a language barrier and someone not prone to smiling for no reason…people can be intimidated when someone at the director level shows up at their workstation with a clip board (I’m lead internal auditor.)

        That isn’t about me as much as it’s about the dynamics. So I start off every audit explaining it’s not a gotcha game and I smile and make eye contact. Deliberately. I’m still not comfortable with it, but I do it and it helps. A couple silly things also help in my environment:

        We wear IDs on lanyards and mine is Hello Kitty. I always wear Hello Kitty Vans for an audit and my clip board is Barbie pink (although not Barbie themed – I am a professional.)

        This won’t help in some places and will hurt credibility in others, but it always gets a genuine smile from people who don’t know me and takes some of the scary director vibe away and replaces some of it with softer and more quirky facade. And neither is a front – I mean I am both serious management and kinda quirky and (imo) fun so it’s just a matter of letting them see the parts which will facilitate a more comfortable conversation.

        And it doesn’t take anything away from credibility. No amount of whimsy on my shoes will make it pleasant if I find bad things on your computer or I find you willfully violating QC procedures.

        1. Short Fuse*

          Jamie, I think we might have been separated at birth, because you sound very much like me.

          Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. There’s some great advice there, and I’m going to try what you suggested. I think my demeanor is similar to yours, and just a few little superficial changes for me might well have the huge return that you got. I also prefer communicating via IM or email, so I can have something to refer back to later, and I think, like you said, answering with “it’s OK” can come off as dismissive even if you don’t mean it that way. Email and IM lack the face-to-face aspect, so without the inflection things can be misconstrued.

          My boss did give me a great piece of advice though. I don’t do it often, but once in awhile something will really make me mad and I’ll fire off a response that in my mind is tactful, but doesn’t come across that way. She said she struggles with the same thing, and she has started imposing a gag-order on herself, and giving herself until the next business day to respond. I do that, but I think I need to start being stricter with myself about when to respond right away, and when to give myself a chance to cool off.

          I’ve gotten the “unapproachable” feedback before, and I do try to work on it. This was the first time I got “opinionated,” and like I said above, I’d bet money that it came from my co-worker that also has a very strong personality, and is not used to people challenging her like I will, if I feel that her suggested solution is not necessarily the way to go.

          1. Jamie*

            The opinionated thing bothers me, because you were hired to have opinions. They hire anyone to not have an opinion.

            Someone giving their opinion weight merely because it’s their opinion while refusing to listen to feedback or factor in other POV which may bring up issues you didn’t see – that’s a problem. But you’re not doing that so, yeah, I’d lay that at the feet of your projecting co-worker.

            The email thing is great advice. I will never send an email I wrote even slightly pissy – because while I can guarantee it won’t say anything overtly unprofessional I need time before I can accurately assess my own tone. A drafts folder is a good thing.

            For me the hardest thing to get past was my own stubbornness and belief (that I still have) that I shouldn’t have to give out these kind of verbal hugs when I’m killing myself to fix the problem or meet a deadline. Why should I have to smile at you to make you comfy so you’ll tell me all about your computer problems. Why don’t you just tell me because you have a problem, it’s my job to solve it, and I won’t yell, speak harshly, or hit you for bringing it to my attention. Why do you have to come away from every interaction with me feeling personally validated? What’s next? A nice massage and then I’ll give you a little bath and bring you some soothing tea?

            Clearly an issue I still feel strongly about.

            But I finally accepted that this wasn’t a fight I was ever going to win and, albeit begrudgingly at first, began to accommodate their need for…comfort? I don’t know what the need is…but it’s a need.

            Case in point a couple of weeks ago I did an ERP upgrade – should have been routine but due to various issues on the vendor end it was a descent into hell. I think Dante has to write a sequel to include that circle.

            I am the only IT of a couple hundred users all having multiple issues of varying degrees of urgency. Treating them as fellow victims of an SP gone wrong rather than gnats circling my face…I’m telling you it was astounding. I still won’t blame the system because I need people to trust it was a glitch and not a reliability issue (all true) but by acknowledging how frustrated I know they are and how I want to get them back up as quickly as humanly possible did more than address my being more approachable. It bought me empathy and time. And their requests were less snotty and judgy which helped mitigate additional stress on my end.

            So there were actual benefits to me with all this – more patience and cooperation. Who knew?

            But yeah – I totally get it and if you ever find a company where it’s okay to be polite but not smile at people when you’re trying not to vomit let me know.

        2. HappyLurker*

          That was great and I have written down a couple of your things for my own reference. I think the reminders to smile, and make eye contact when saying “Hello” are so important in every interaction (and something I may have forgotten).

  61. BB*

    Just saw an article on Huff Post about average starting salary of a 2013 college grad: $44,928. Humanities/Social Sciences are still coming in at $39,992.

    If this is true, I need to remove my 3 years work experience and look for an entry-level job.

    2. A Jane*

      I’m located in NYC, and the $39 – 44K is what I’ve seen for entry level positions.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        This is why I hate those “average starting salary” things you read on blogs–they are rarely based on national averages, and usually taken in a major city with a high cost of living (NYC, Boston, DC, San Francisco, LA). AAM’s post about “what do you make” was insanely helpful after reading tons of articles like that.

      2. BB*

        I would expect NYC to be above average since the cost of living is higher than average. But yea only goes to show how skewed these reports are.

      3. meesh*

        i’m also located in NYC and actually getting paid $39-$44 is rare.

        My first job was 37K and my 2nd was 38…I’m now going on job # 3 (interviewing) which is also entry level in NYC and its exactly the same.

        It all depends on industry-not just location

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’m very reluctant to trust *average* salaries because they are so skewed by the mega earners. Look for *median* salaries; they’re more realistic.

    4. Jamie*

      These things mean nothing without specifics – especially industry and region.

      The best way to check this stuff is do your own research. I had to do it once when my boss wanted me to get market rate for my job (don’t ask) and my job is a weird amalgam but even if it wasn’t – the generic sites aren’t accurate.

      I culled site after site (craigslist, indeed, dice, etc.) for positions similar is not only duties and size – but scope of responsibility and my goal was to get 20 for a sample. I couldn’t find a full 20 with salary ranges in the ads in my area so I broadened it – sticking to other cities with similar local economies and cost of living.

      It was a lot of work but the results had more weight as I vetted each data point for relevance.

  62. Amy B.*

    My BF is applying for jobs and received a call for a phone interview for a customer service position. The caller asked if he had “reliable transportation” and he answered, “Yes, the city bus.” (which he has been using for years). She made a noise and he asked if that was a problem to which she replied, “Yes” and then hung up on him.

    I told him to 1) Be glad he didn’t get a job with someone like that and 2) Just answer “Yes” to that question. Unless they need him to drive his own car to perform the job, it should not be their concern what his reliable transportation is. Is this reasonable?

    1. Zillah*

      I think it’s completely reasonable to just say yes rather than elaborating – I actually think it’s a little weirder to specify!

    2. Sascha*

      I think a simple “yes” is fine. If they ask further, he could say “the bus.” What a jerk to hang up on him like that! Dodged a bullet there.

  63. LV*

    I just wanted to say that I have an interview this afternoon and another one next week (different organizations). I’m really excited! And nervous, but mostly excited.

    I found the contrast between the emails from both potential employers to be interested. One said something like, “We’d like you to come in on [day] at [time]. Does that work for you? If you would need an alternate time, please let me know.”

    The other said, “You’re invited to an interview at [date and time]. Rescheduling will only be permitted for religious reasons, death in the family or cases of serious illness. A doctor’s certificate or other proof will be required.” It… kind of rubbed me the wrong way, especially since I got fairly short notice (Wednesday evening invite for Friday afternoon interview). Having to take hours off work in the middle of the day on such short notice would be tricky for a lot of people. I’m just fortunate in that regard because my current boss knows I’m interviewing and is fine with it (since my contract is up at the end of the month).

    1. Fiona*

      I’ve had interviews where only specific windows were available, and on somewhat short notice (tell me on Tuesday interviews are from 10:30 to noon on Thursday? Sure, my boss totally won’t mind that I scheduled a “doctor’s appointment” on top of our standing project meeting!) but I’ve never seen one that had all that extra. I’d seriously reconsider whether I wanted to work for an org that strict. If the entire company is run that way, there’d be a definite culture clash for me.

      1. LV*

        It’s definitely a red flag for me too, but it’s a temporary position until the end of this year. I figure that if I do get an offer (and this is the only offer I get), I can handle 8 months in a strict organization that’s not a good cultural fit for me.

    2. Smargie*

      That would rub me the wrong way too! What if you had another interview already scheduled for that time with another company? They are acting like they are the most important place on the planet which is never a good sign.

    3. bev*

      Wow. Can you imagine what it would be like if you needed to ask for time off? Make sure you ask this company lots of questions so you can figure out if you would still be interested after the interview.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The second employer feels that employees are a dime a dozen.
      “If you don’t show, we have ten more that will take your time slot.”

      If you keep that second appointment, keep your eyes wide open.

  64. R*

    As I’ve mentioned here a few times, I’m beginning a new job next week. I’m organizing my closet and getting mentally prepared, but I’ve been thinking a lot about what kinds of habits I’d like to begin at my new job. (I’ve also been thinking about what old bad habits I’d like to leave behind!)

    So, my question: What good work habits do you have?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Do not involve yourself in gossip. Just don’t do it. It’s easy to get caught up in that at a new place what with wanting to fit in with co-workers, etc. But don’t go there. Life is easier if you don’t invest in the office drama.

      1. A Jane*

        Agreed. The longer I can stay away from office gossip, the better/more productive I am. Allows me to stay open minded and focus on solving problems.

    2. AmyNYC*

      Get a notebook, and make in the only place you make notes. Lists, to-do, I made the last 3-4 pages of mine into reference so I don’t have to look up that one thing a million times.

      2. R*

        That’s a great idea! It’s one that I usually attempt, but somehow I wind up with four different notebooks, a pad of Post Its, and a scrawled agenda with notes on it. I might invest in an attractive notebook holder so that I’m more inclined to use it.

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          Have you ever heard of the company Levenger? They make really nice, high-end office supplies — things like portfolios, notebook covers, etc. I love all that kind of stuff so I can get lost for hours browsing on their website.

          1. Ruffingit*

            I could max out a credit card on office supplies, especially the ones with lovely leather notebook covers, etc. Le sigh. Love it all.

      3. Lalou*

        Yes! Keep a log book of everything you do. It doesn’t have to take long to just jot down things you think future you may find useful. As a programmer of some pretty unique systems it is so useful to be able to refer back to my old notes and reasoning behind decisions when I have to look back on what I’ve done to fix it or alter something after a long time.

    3. HappyLurker*

      Love both the previous ideas. Plus get to work 10-15 minutes early. It helps you get settled, and you can plan your day.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Protien for breakfast, every day, without fail.

      Before I leave at night I write a list of things I need to start with in the morning. It’s never a comprehensive list. It is just enough to jump start my day. I sleep better if I do this.

      1. AmyNYC*

        I made mini-quiches – kales, eggs and cheese (+whatever veggies you have in the fridge) baked in muffin tins. Quick to grab on my way out the door and keeps me full until lunch.

      2. AmyNYC*

        I made mini-quiches – kale, eggs and cheese (+whatever veggies you have in the fridge) baked in muffin tins. Quick to grab on my way out the door and keeps me full until lunch.

  65. Elkay*

    I’ve come here to do a little happy dance because I got to do something I enjoy while helping someone out. It started off as a seed of an idea then I went to buy lunch and during the walk there and back I worked out where I could find what I needed to know and how to pummel it into submission. I came back and did a dummy run, got the information I needed and gave someone what they needed in less than five minutes. At least I hope that’s what I did, I’m now having doubts about how helpful I’ve been and hoping I didn’t overstep.

  66. Sloop*

    I always get nervous requesting time off (I have no idea why…I have three weeks I have to use this year and my boss is pretty cool and is always telling me that I shouldn’t be afraid to use my time.) Does anyone have suggestions for a nice way to phrase the email – I feel like I should *ask* but I feel immature when I do that!

    1. Sunflower*

      I get the same way and I think the best thing to do is make the email the same as any other emails you said to him. By trying to ‘convince’ him or ask nicely, it will only further feed into this nasty habit you want to break

      ‘ I was planning to take the week of x/x off. Wanted to make sure it wouldn’t be a problem. Thanks’

      Part of your bosses job is handling employees and their time off request. Think of it as the same as you sending an email about a project.

    2. Fiona*

      Ditto Sunflower. We use our clock in/out to log PTO requests, so my emails usually read, “I put a request in Paychex to take Monday off. Please let me know if there’s a conflict.”

      I assume the yes, but acknowledge that it could be vetoed.

  67. Janet*

    Last year, I relocated with my company for a new position. I did not sign a relocation agreement. A few months after I moved, the company announced my job would be moved to another state and I was required to move again. I ended up taking a new job with a different company. My old company owed me a bonus from last year, however deducted relocation expenses from it. I have asked for the relocation agreement (there wasn’t one), and both hr and payroll now refuse to speak with me. Do I have any recourse? Another person from my same department was not forced to payback relo costs last year when she left the company, so there is a precedent set.

    1. Ruffingit*

      Get a lawyer. If they are refusing to speak with you now, this may be your only recourse.

      1. fposte*

        But get specific with the lawyer about fees and how much you’re willing to pay to chase this, because if this issue goes beyond the stern letter stage it would be easy to pay a lawyer more than the relocation expenses.

          1. fposte*

            My WAG is that this is a case where a stern letter might suffice, and I’d sure think it was worth it.

            1. Ruffingit*

              That’s what I was thinking as well. If they refuse to talk to Janet, they might start opening their mouths when it’s a lawyer on the line (or writing the letter, whichever the case may be).

        2. FRRibs*

          Most important thing I learned working with lawyers:

          If they ask if you want a cup of tea, say “no”. The 15 minutes it takes to make that tea will cost you $50+.

    2. Chriama*

      Check your company handbook. If they have a policy in there it might be binding. I don’t know that you have much recourse if they just don’t want to pay it out though. Maybe try contacting someone more senior in HR or payroll?

      To find out if what they did was illegal you may need to see a workplace lawyer (there may be rules about deducting expenses from paychecks, or it may be that they can’t unilaterally decide what the relocation expenses are if you didn’t agree ahead of time, etc), but at that point it might cost more than what you stand to recover.

      I would try to resolve it as diplomatically as possible at first. Could you get your boss to intercede on your behalf?

    1. Joie de Vivre*

      Yup! Love spending time with my friends kids, but no regrets that I don’t have any of my own.

    6. Sadsack*

      Yes! I have nothing against kids, I just don’t feel compelled to have my own. There have been times over the years when I thought I would like to have children, but then I realize that I like my life and my relationship with my significant other (of ten years now) just the way it is. He has grown children of his own. At times when we have discussed my interest or disinterest in having children, he basically said that he would if I wanted that. However, we just don’t feel any need to have children together. I don’t feel the need to have children at all.

    7. 22dncr*

      Yep – ever since I was a child have NEVER wanted kids. Thank goodness my extended family does not pressure and we were all raised to be independent thinkers.

    8. BB*

      I’m childfree for now- I don’t care for children and always thought I would eventually change my mind but I’m not sure that’s happening. It’s a weird feeling but I’m starting to realize it’s totally okay! Sometimes people gawk at me when I tell them I’m not sure but I can’t help but consider all the great benefits that come with no kids. Having a nice salary and the freedom to travel doesn’t sound so bad in my book..

      1. Jen RO*

        I used to think my body/brain will one day decide “OMGKIDS!”, but it never did… and at some point in my twenties it occurred to me that, well, I don’t *have* to have kids. My mom isn’t happy, but I’m lucky to have friends who are moms themselves but understand my lack of desire to go the same way. I’ve actually had nightmares of being pregnant – they were horrible.

        1. Trixie*

          This. I know my mom wants me to be happy towards whatever direction that entails but I do find it a little heartbreaking that she won’t have grandkids from my sister or myself. Have to wonder, what are the odds that TWO sisters end up not having children. But we do adore our fur babies!

    9. LPBB*

      Very happily so! I’ve never regretted that decision even though it’s cost me several relationships.

    11. Jess*

      Me too! I have a dog, two cats, two guinea pigs, a tank full of fish and a husband, though.

      It gets a little lonely sometimes though. I feel like I’m the only thirty-something married woman I know who doesn’t have kids or desperately want kids.

      1. Trixie*

        And this. I think we know there’s plenty of us out there, its just finding them in our local communities. I think that’s how I found meet-up groups so helpful in my last city because everyone I was meeting on regular outings didn’t have kids and maybe therefore had time for said outing. Its hard enough making new friends but at the family/SO dynamic and its a whole other level.

      2. Elkay*

        I am now the only married person in my group of friends who does not have/want kids. It seems like every week I’m getting an email announcing another pregnancy. I wish I knew how to find people who were the same as me.

    12. LV*

      Yes, and I’m very happy with my decision.

      The one fly in my ointment is that since I’m only 25, most people assume I’m going to change my mind. As a general rule I never say never, but I’ve known since I was 13 that I never wanted kids and my husband doesn’t want them either (and even got a vasectomy, so…)

      I have a lot of relatives who keep asking WHEN I’m going to have a baby. My grandmother grumbled the other day that “I was married at 19 and had your father at 20!” so what’s MY excuse, and my mother occasionally does stuff like email me photos of my dad holding a family friend’s grandchild with the caption, “Doesn’t he look great in the role of grandfather?” Very subtle…

      1. LPBB*

        Do you have siblings? I can’t tell you what a relief it was when my sister got pregnant, because it meant that my parents would have at least one grandchild and I would not have to feel guilty about depriving them. Not that they would have made me feel guilty about it, but I could win a gold medal in the Feeling Guilty About Things I Have Absolutely No Reason To Feel Guilty About Olympics.

      2. Jen RO*

        I just turned 30, so my mother made sure to point out that her plan was to have her kids before 30 and she managed it (me at 28, my brother at 30). I told her I don’t understand what that’s got to do with me…

      3. Ruffingit*

        I got the you’ll change your mind crap too when I was in my 20s. One of the best things ever about being in my late 30s is no longer having to deal with that nonsense. It really irritated me when people assumed I didn’t know my own mind. It also irritated me because no one would ever say that to a pregnant women in her 20s as in “Well, you know, kids are a life changing choice, you’ll change your mind…” Apparently people in their 20s who have children are perfectly capable of making that decision, but make the choice NOT to have kids? Oh, you don’t know your own mind.

        So that rankled, but it’s been less of an issue the older I’ve gotten. You get more credibility as you age so hang in there!

    13. CTO*

      Me (and my husband) too. When I was younger I always assumed I’d be a parent and my now-husband and I used to assume that we’d have kids together. But around the time we got engaged (in our early 20s) and kids became more of a real, concrete thing that people did and might expect us to start doing… we both lost interest in being parents, at least to babies.

      We do share an interest in foster parenting older kids/teens, so we might make that happen eventually. But the “traditional” parenting route is not for us. That could change someday (we’re not even 30, so we do have time) and I’m open to it changing, but also perfectly happy if we stay childfree.

      1. vvondervvoman*

        This is where my husband and I are. We both legitimately do not believe in making little humans (mostly for environmental reasons). Right now, we also don’t feel the need to raise children. But any parenting urge will go straight into fostering!

    15. Anon E Mouse*

      Hellz yeah!

      I get VERY tired of people telling me I will change my mind and want kids. I’m 45. I have zero desire to have children. I like my child-free life.

      On the other hand, I have 3 cats, and foster kittens several times a year, so….

      Luckily my brother had kids, so my parents don’t bother me with grandparent lust.

    16. kas*

      I’m only 22 but I plan on being childfree, I have no desire to have children. I have way too many young cousins and I’m usually the one babysitting and that has definitely made me realize how much I enjoy my freedom.

      I want to get married, travel the world and live life spontaneously – I can’t do that with children, having to either worry about a babysitter or plan child-friendly vacations.

      My sister feels the same way so no grandchildren for my parents ..

    18. Not So NewReader*

      Yep. I am a firm believer in playing the hand you’ve been dealt, usually. (ie: What is, is.) By extension, I think that you make choices in life and part of that decision is to recognize that you can’t keep rehashing/regreting your own conclusion. Make the decision, realize it is best for you and move on. There are many aspects of life to experience, go find them.

      So part of the childfree choice for me was seeing that I was (am) going to be on a path less traveled. (There are a lot more childfree couples now.) I would need to actively carve out a life for me, I had very few role models.

      I don’t think that any one life decision makes you happier or sadder in life. I think you have to chose to be happy each day no matter what path you take in life.

  69. AmyNYC*

    Similar to the carpooling coworker from earlier this week – I leave around the same time as a coworker, and a few times a week, we end up walking to the train together and sometimes even in the same train car, making awkward small talk.
    I’ve tried saying “Oh, my stop is at the other end, see you tomorrow” and she just says, “oh, I’ll wait with you!”
    She’s nice and I don’t mind talking with her – for a bit. But I’ve been in the office all day, I’ve got roommates, I just want my commute to be 30 minutes of me. Is there a polite way to say BUZZ OFF?

      1. R*

        Or a book. Or even a fake phone call that lets you wave politely and situate yourself in the back of the train car all alone. I’ll admit, I’ve sometimes walked in a circle just to avoid chit-chat when I’m not in the mood!

    2. College Career Counselor*

      I had something similar happen to me a few years ago. I finished several hours worth of interviews with folks on campus, including the Dean of the College. After I was done, I got a box lunch from my admin contact, then made my way to the train station, hoping to eat on the train while mentally decompressing.

      There was the Dean of the College, waiting to take the train to the airport, too. Cue an additional 30 minutes of post-interview small talk waiting for the train, boarding the train, etc. I can be as gregarious as the next guy, but after the typical meet-everyone-on-campus interview gauntlet, I’m DONE!

    4. FRRibs*

      Cultivate nonverbal cues that get the message across but aren’t rude. I’ve trained my co-workers to know the difference between when I’m available to chat and when I’m busy and would prefer to focus.

    5. Kit M.*

      Book. This is not ideal if you’re like me and really just want to use your commute to stare into space, but it’s worked for me. An Ebook reader is best for this because then it’s not so obvious if you’re not turning pages. Make a little small talk and then say, “Now if you’ll excuse me, my commute is the only time I get to read.” And start reading/staring at your book.

      If you feel comfortable being a little blunter, once you get on the train you can say, “Excuse me, my commute’s my only ‘me’ time and I’m going to zone out.” If she talks to you after that, look startled and ask her to repeat herself before answering. This is what I have done with overly chatty strangers on the subway, with moderate success.

    6. Amy*

      I walked to the train with a coworker, we chatted, and then when we got on, she took out a book and said, “I don’t mean to be anti-social, but I’ve got to read this before class tonight.” It was so clear and polite, and set the precedent for future rides together – sometimes we’d chat throughout the ride, but if either of us wanted to read, we would just take out a book and do so. You could also take out a book and say, “Have you read this? It’s great so far” as a transition into “we are going to stop talking now.”

  70. Ms Enthusiasm*

    I would love to hear everyone’s opinion on how to motivate an employee with a negative attitude. I know some people are beyond help and there is nothing you can do. And I also know that different people are motivated by different things. So some people might want recognition and some people might want monetary rewards. But I’ve recently had an encounter with someone who really stumped me. He basically said he was only interested in making money. We tried to give him stretch goals and told him if he met those goals then that would be considered going Above and Beyond and having a reputation of doing great work would help him with future roles. He never even tried the goal. He used the anaology that if you want more from someone/something you need to put more money into it first. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt: he is young and inexperienced and hasn’t had too many jobs under his belt. We tried to dangle developement opportunities in front of him but that didn’t work either. I know this one was probably a lost cause. Not only did he have a bad attitude but he was also arrogant (Of course he could do the job, he has his Masters degree). But then he kept making mistakes and was even caught sleeping on the job!

    I guess what I’m trying to ask is how do you motivate or engage someone like that? Is it even possible to pull them back from that horrible point? I think it is more than just an attitude change – it is a change in their whole way of thinking. Do any of you have any canned speeches/pep talks/expressions that you like to use to get someone excited and happy again?

    1. fposte*

      He’s got the wrong logic–I don’t spend more money on something that hasn’t looked to be worth it.

      However, it sounds like he’s a lazy and bad employee, and I’m not sure why he still has a job. (I suspect that answer is related to how somebody like this got hired in the first place, and whatever you can do to fix that hiring practice will help you in the future.) If you can fire him, do. If you can’t, PIP time, and an explanation that the money he’d like to make comes when he demonstrates he’s valuable, and right now he’s not succeeding at that.

      1. Ms Enthusiasm*

        He is actually gone now. He was a temp but even though the work he was brought in to do wasn’t finished we got rid of him. Hopefully the next temp will be better. If he had done a great job one of the rewards could have been a recommendation for a permanent role someplace else here where I work which really would mean a lot. We are a large, Fortune 100 company and are awesome to work for. We tried telling him that if he showed how great he was we would be happy to recommend him but he didn’t seem to care. Again, he was a lost cause. But I always will wonder if there wasn’t some magical expression I could have said to him that would suddenly turn his attitude around. Is there a perfect motivating speech out there or is it all just too subjective since everyone is motivated by different things?

        1. Chriama*

          I remember learning that people will pay more to avoid a perceived loss than to acquire a perceived gain. In other words, stop telling him about what he gets if he’s a good little worker, and tell him that if he doesn’t meet standards a, b, and c he’s fired.

          There is no motivating speech. If he was doing the bare minimum to get paid you would have kept him around. He wasn’t.

        2. fposte*

          Too subjective. If there were something universal like that either everybody would know it and the world would be awash in diligence, or it would be a special secret told only for a payment of a million bucks.

        3. AVP*

          Unfortunately I think that kind of motivation has to come from within, and for whatever reason he just didn’t have it.

        4. bev*

          Glad to hear he was only a temp and that he’s gone. This situation has nothing to do with him being an unmotivated worker. He’s just immature and doesn’t know how the real professional world works. There is no need to try to explain how things work in the business world. It’s not your job. He will learn it on his own one day. You were too nice to him and it sounded almost like you were his mother instead of a supervisor. Your company is a Fortune 100 and that kid ruined a great opportunity. He should have been fired after he made the comment about needing to be paid more before getting more from the person.

    2. Jen RO*

      I started to answer this, then I realized I was projecting my own experience. To make it short, I think both of you are wrong. He shouldn’t be asking for more money upfront, and you shouldn’t ask him to go above and beyond with no potential reward. In my opinion, you should outline the ways in which his hard work could accomplish his goal of a raise. I doubt there is a pep talk that can motivate this employee, especially if he’s been burned before (but if he’s new to the workforce, maybe he’s just getting really bad advice from someone?).

      1. fposte*

        That’s a good point on the Above and Beyond–I was distracted by the fact that this employee seems to be Below.

        1. Jen RO*

          Good point, I also forgot that he is actually sleeping on the job! In a previous job, above and beyond only got you a pat on the back and more work – no promotion, no merit raise, no support from management. I didn’t turn into a bad employee, but I also didn’t have any motivation to do anything extra. I sure as hell didn’t start slacking, though!

          1. Ruffingit*

            Yeah, been there too and there is a definite difference between not doing anything extra, slacking, and completely failing at the job. The latter encompasses sleeping on the job. That goes well beyond even slacking.

    3. Mason*

      Everyone boils down to being motivated by the stick or the carrot. The carrot isn’t just money, it’s opportunity, it’s praise, it’s better work, etc. The stick is negative consequences for unwanted behavior. Sounds like this guy was asking for the stick.

    4. Jane*

      Why are you bothering? There’s a fundamental problem with this employee and there’s no speech that’s going to change that.

      He behaves this way because he’s been allowed to. Remember that old quote “appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive?” If you somehow do manage to motivate him it will likely only be temporary. Do you really want an employee who holds you hostage every few months for undue praise, encouragement, and potentially monetary rewards? Crazy. Let him go and replace him with someone you won’t need to drag through their career kicking and screaming.

    5. Scott M*

      No.

      Rather than focus on his attitude (which is subjective), you need to focus on behaviors (which are objective). Create clear and measurable goals and expect him to meet them. Communicate the consequences if he doesn’t meet them (reprimand, performance improvement plan, eventual termination). Then follow through.

    6. Chriama*

      This guy was a bad employee. Good employees take pride in doing good work.

      I don’t like the idea of telling someone how they can go “above and beyond” if they haven’t asked for it and/or you aren’t their mentor. It’s skeevy to evaluate people on implicit standards. Either they’re expected to meet a certain standard or it isn’t a criteria for evaluation. That standard might include proactively seeking more work, but then tell them that.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe this does not fit, but you might want to ask directly. “If I am going to recommend to my boss that you get a raise, what basis shall I use? Typically raises come for x,y, or z. How do these things apply to your setting?”

      Yeah, pretty much a hopeless situation.

      I have only encountered one severe hopeless situation. This woman would stand in the middle of the sales floor and do nothing all night. She stood in the same spot for hours. She could have been a living manniquin but she was not wearing our merchandise. If I spoke to her she would not answer. My boss blamed me…. until my boss worked with her. She was gone after that.

  71. Lolwut*

    I received a rejection email this morning for a job I applied to last night. They took less time considering/rejecting me than I did applying. SMH.

    1. Ruffingit*

      They likely took no time considering you. A rejection that quickly usually means your application didn’t contain some key words or whatever that their automated program was looking for. It sucks, but you’ve dodged a bullet. These are not people who are doing their hiring well.

      1. Lolwut*

        Oh yes, definitely. It’s such a shame that my beautifully worded cover letter will go unread. On to the next one!

        1. De Minimis*

          I can beat that, I interviewed one morning and got the rejection back as a response to my thank-you e-mail that I sent a couple of hours later. So from interview to rejection the cycle time was around 3 hours….

          They said I did have potential, but they ran into a candidate who had experience in their very specialized field, which was unusual so they felt they had to go with that person.

          1. Lolwut*

            You got me. Just to be clear: in the three hours between interviewing you and sending you that note, they managed to make a hiring decision, put together an offer, and then have the candidate accept said offer? Three hours? I’m sure that worked out well.

            1. De Minimis*

              Basically it was an accounting firm that audited school districts, and that’s all they did. One candidate actually had experience performing that work, so that’s who they went with. They had recently terminated an employee so the position had to be filled ASAP. I probably would have made a similar decision, if I had the opportunity to hire someone who would require little training.

              It was [and remains] an extremely tight job market in that city, and professional type jobs are hard to find, so it’s likely that an offer would not have been that difficult to put together and would have been immediately accepted.

              1. Ruffingit*

                Yeah, but…wow. That just seems like a super short time frame. I can imagine feeling a little put off by that, even with their good reason.

  72. ryn*

    So, I work in the office of a small machine shop. Like, less than 25 people small. About a year ago, the old owner sold to our new owner/boss. I also work with my mother. She was promoted to office manager a while back, and therefore, is now my manager, even though I always have answered mostly to her.

    I’ve been here for three years now and since new boss has come in, i’ve been given a whole lot of new, important tasks straight from new boss. He’s told me many times how much he trusts me, and how important this stuff is, and how much it helps him to have me doing these tasks that have doubled my work load, at least. My mommanager thinks it’s time for me to have a raise. How do we go about this? She wants me to ask him, but I’m not sure if that’s right, as i’ve asked someone else for advice, and they seem to think me asking him is going over her head, but they admitted it’s a difficult situation. Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      Ugh, this is an example of the problems of reporting to family. My inclination is to say that if the organization is okay with your mom managing you, then she has to manage you, which includes promotion and compensation decisions. If she’s authorized to give you a raise, she should give you a raise; this sounds like it might require a title change as well. I would suggest for her sake more than yours that she provide a business justification for the change, hopefully drawing on some market info.

      1. ryn*

        ugh, it’s gonna be like pulling teeth to get her to do that. i’ve been asking her to talk to him about it for a while, and then this week, she decided i needed to talk to him about it at the end of the month. and at the same time, i don’t actually know how much authority she really has outside of a title change herself and going to meetings she didn’t go to before. it’s honestly a messy situation. part of me has been wanting to ask my head boss if i can be out from under my mom’s management and directly under him, as more and more, i’m becoming his administrative assistant.

        idk….

        1. fposte*

          *Totally* ask your higher boss to change the chain of command. It’s wildly inappropriate for her to manage you (though probably don’t put it that way, since the org was okay with it), and you’re going without a manager because your mom won’t manage you. That’s not fair.

          1. Ruffingit*

            Yes, fposte has it right. This is really an unworkable situation. Your manager who happens to be your mom is refusing to manage you. If you have a good relationship with new boss, I’d say you could have a meeting with him to ask for the raise and if he says you need to go through your manager, you could lay out the issues with that. Would you not do this if mom WASN’T your manager? In other words, if you had a boss who wasn’t your mom who refused to manage you, refused to talk to the new boss about a raise, etc., what would you do? You’d have to go over their head. And, in this case, you’ve got the added bonus of your manager telling you to do just that. So do it. Talk to new boss and let him know what you’d like to have happen, give business justification for it (that is, you’re doing more and more work for him) and be open about the issues mom as manager is creating now. Communication is the key to getting anything done in this situation.

    2. Jen RO*

      Would it be possible to ask New Boss what he thinks? He could decide whether (in your particular case) raise discussions should be handled by himself or by Momager. (That word makes me think of Kris Kardashian…)

      1. ryn*

        Honestly? I want her to ask him that. And I think she needs to. she’s very very very new to being a manager and I think he knows that and is okay with her asking for help. This is one of those things that I think she needs to know. Because we’re so small and he’s very open to us talking to him and because she’s so new to this, i seriously doubt it will be held against either me or her.

        1. Jen RO*

          Yeah, I don’t see a problem with her asking, it’s an important thing to have clear, IMO. I hope she is willing to do this!

        2. Hooptie*

          Ask Mom if you weren’t her daughter would she still want you to be the one asking the boss for the raise, or if she as the manager would be the one to go to him?

          1. ryn*

            good point. I think i’m gonna ask her to ask him, just in general as well, because I don’t think the chain of command is clear to her in terms of raises at all, and i’m gonna ask her about the daughter thing.

            thanks guys!

            1. Chriama*

              The chain of command really isn’t clear in this instance. The owner is the one who assigned you new work, so he’s the one who should be paying you for it.

              Also, it’s a tiny company and your boss is your mom. I think she’s doing you a favour by wanting to eliminate all appearance of favouritism. If you ever want to work somewhere else you should have a reference other than your mom to call on.

              1. ryn*

                well, new boss has already told me that whenever i move on, he’s happy to give me a good reference, so, that may be a cue that I should go to him. It’s honestly kinda messy, as you can see by the various responses i’ve gotten from ‘don’t have your mommy do it’ to ‘your mom needs to be your manager if she’s gonna manage you.’ :| I’m really just trying to not step on toes at this point. I have my case to make to new boss with or without my mom going in first, but I don’t want to piss him off by seeming like i’m going over her, and i don’t want her to seem like she’s playing favorites.

                Ugh.

                1. fposte*

                  To be honest, ryn, in a small, informal organization that gets along well, the hierarchies may not matter as much anyway. I’m mostly annoyed at the situation and a little bit at your mom for letting it work against you and for not asking somebody else to step in if she’s recusing herself. But I think given the situation it would be okay to say “I’ve discussed this with my manager, but as you know, she’s my mother, so she felt uncomfortable bringing this forward to you and we agreed that I would speak to you directly. And while we’re at it, especially in light of my changing job duties, would it be possible to rearrange things so that I report to you rather than to my mother?”

                2. ryn*

                  Out of reply space.

                  fposte, I think you’ve summed it up well. I think that’s where I was headed as it was, but I wanted to make sure that it is okay going forward that way, ya know?

                  Thank you so much though. I feel more sure about it than I was.

                3. Chriama*

                  I like your phrasing fposte. Ryn, I think you should also have the “big picture” convo about the current structure where you report to your mom.

                  For what it’s worth, even if the owner had told you to talk to your mom it wouldn’t have been a big deal. Just tell him that you wanted to eliminate any appearance of favouritism and were worried about asking your mom to decide your compensation. Unless he’s completely unreasonable, he wouldn’t be mad at you for going over her head even if that’s how he saw it.

    3. Chriama*

      I think you need to be in charge of your own career. It’s awkward that you report to your mom when she’s not the owner, but the company sounds small enough that the owner can be considered your boss.

      Honestly, you wanting your mom to ask the owner on your behalf reminds me of the time I was in elementary school and asked my mom to write a note for my teacher telling her I hadn’t slept well the night before so I might be drowsy that day (for some reason it was a big deal for me that I couldn’t fall asleep lol. I don’t think I even showed it to the teacher).

      You are a working adult, and capable of asking for things on your own behalf. Your mom shouldn’t decide your raise because she’s your mom. Yes it would be different advice if you weren’t her daughter, but you are so the point is moot. See the owner on your own behalf. If you feel up to it, broach the subject of how to deal with situations like this in the future when your mom is your manager.

      But, YOU do it. This isn’t grade school anymore.

      1. fposte*

        The reason I’m disagreeing (though not completely about what ryn can do) is that this is actually ryn’s manager’s job to do whether she’s ryn’s mother or not. And if she can’t do it, it’s her job to find somebody who can. It’s not grade school to expect your manager to do her job.

        1. Chriama*

          But I think she did that by telling ryn to talk to the owner. The company is tiny, and the owner is directly giving her work. There likely aren’t any layers between mom and owner to pass that responsibility off to. I don’t think there’s another way mom could have handled that ethically, although she could have done a better job of explaining to ryn why she needs to do this herself.

          1. fposte*

            It’s still her obligation to tell *her* boss that she’s doing it, though, so that he knows her subordinate isn’t just going over her head, and it doesn’t sound like she’s done that.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think the three of you should sit down together and discuss.

      Explain the complexity and the concern. The main point here is that no one wants to step out of bounds. That is a GOOD thing.

      So tell the new boss that you have a 2 part dilemma. The first part is you answer to your mom. (Not very transparent, potential for the perception of nepotism.) The second part is that you would like to ask for a raise but have no clue how best to handle that question BECAUSE you have to ask your mom. (You feel you can prove worthy of the raise but asking your mom murkies the waters.)

      If you have a good boss, which it sounds like you do, she will instantly see the need for her assistance. (In the role of a nuetral third party.)

      You guys are trying to do the right thing. And in the end, that will be obvious to the boss. Once you sort all this, you can ask “going forward, how do you want me to handle these types of questions?”

  73. KC*

    I got a verbal, then emailed offer yesterday for a new gig! I’m so excited about the opportunity. I’m trying to negotiate a higher starting salary for the first time ever.

    I replied to the HR rep’s email with the salary I’d be more comfortable with, my reasoning behind it, etc. The HR person has now asked to talk to me on the phone this morning–I’m a nervous wreck! I keep trying to do the: “The worst thing they could say is ‘no.'” mantra–but I keep feeling like I’m going to screw it up somehow. Does anyone have some advice to help me zen myself before this call?

    1. Hooptie*

      Are you ok with the salary offered? If so, then congratulate yourself for having the courage to negotiate, and if you can get more, great. If not, it sounds like you’re pumped about the job enough that it’s ok if you don’t get much, if anything over the offer. Congratulations!

    2. Chriama*

      Know your arguments! You know the justification for asking for a different salary. You know at what point you’re willing to walk away (if at all). You know what you’re willing to take in lieu of more salary (e.g. higher vacation time).

      Don’t let the HR rep push you around or intimidate you. There’s nothing “dirty” about wanting to be paid for your work. If they tell you there’s no room for negotiation, tell them you’re happy to take the job at the stated salary (if that’s true) but you’d like more info on how how future compensation will be determined (is it a strict step increase based on years of experience and education?).

      Seriously, just know that there is nothing wrong with what you asked for. It sounds like you’re pumped about the job so I wouldn’t be aggressive about negotiating, but be assertive. Get as much information as you feel you need to in order to feel good about your decision.

    3. KC*

      @Hooptie and @Chriama —

      Thank you so much for the advice!

      The salary offered (when benefits of my current job and that job are factored in) only works out to be about $1k more than I’m making now. I’d say I’m being compensated pretty fairly, though.

      When I talked to her on the phone, she let me know that what they offered was top of the range for that title. However, the team there felt like I would be “fast tracked” to the next career tier for the job relatively quickly, which would come with a base salary bump and 5% annual bonus (standard for the next tier).

      I was prepared to accept the offer whether they said yes or no to the counter-offer, but the conversation I had made me feel better about the decision (I’m not going in feeling like I was low-balled in any way).

      So, yay! I start this job on the 31st! :)

      1. Chriama*

        I’m glad this worked out for you. I understand why she wanted to have the conversation over the phone, and it sounds like she was respectful and reasonable, so good on ya!

        Congrats :)

        1. KC*

          Thanks, Chriama! Yes, she was respectful and reasonable–and very willing to have a dialogue about it. So I can go into my next job with warm and fuzzies. :)

  74. Elle D*

    I’ve found myself in a tough (but temporary, hopefully) financial situation, and it’s really stressing me out. Does anyone have any experience working a full time M-F 8-5 job and working an additional part time job (nights and/or weekends)? Is it even possible to get, say, a retail store to hire you when they know you have a full time “career” position? Is it feasible to do both at once without going crazy?

    1. Diet Coke Addict*

      It is possible, but it can be hard, depending on the jobs involved. Is your full-time job stressful/mentally challenging/emotionally difficult? Does it involve occasional long hours–i.e., will you run into trouble if you stay late? Are you looking to do something fairly low-key retail (like in a low-traffic store) or something more intense? Some retail places don’t want to hire people who are only available nights and weekends, at other places you’ll be competing with high school students for those shifts.

      Tread with caution at first–it can get really overwhelming really quickly, especially if you’re the kind of person who needs Time Off to refresh and recalibrate yourself. If you think your career-job performance might suffer as a result, I’d rethink it. Is your job the type that you could look into occasional freelance work on-and-off, rather than retail? Or to do something more casual–newspaper delivery, pizza delivery, etc., that won’t be so tied to a retail store hours?

      It is definitely doable if you are the kind of person who thrives on Being Busy, and neither job will suffer for it. But if you really need that time off to relax and drain your brain, I’d consider something else.

      1. De Minimis*

        I did it for a while, although my full-time job was in the evenings so my part-time work was during the day.

        It’s very difficult and draining, even when the jobs themselves are not strenuous [these were both sedentary office-work type jobs.] I wouldn’t recommend it long term, I’d look at things where the part-time gig was for a limited term.

    2. KC*

      I tried doing this last fall so I could try and get some outstanding debt paid off faster.

      I ended up working an extra ~10 hours a week doing some work-at-home website content management. I also tried picking up a couple shifts a week waitressing. It didn’t work for me (I went crazy). My day job is VERY mentally demanding; and I found out I needed a LOT more R&R than part-time jobs (on top of 50ish hours at my day job) afforded me. I couldn’t hang.

      YMMV, though. I’m sure there are folks who manage to do this.

      1. Elle D*

        Just out of curiosity, how did you find the web content management gig? That would be ideal, but I’ve had a tough time finding anything of the sort, which is what made me start thinking about retail. I work in marketing and used to manage my former company’s website and social media, so something like that would be a great way to earn extra cash and build my resume. I’ve scanned sites like elance, but it seems like a lot of those potential clients want the moon and want to pay you $15.00 to do it…am I just not looking hard enough?

        1. KC*

          Hi Elle,

          This happened to be a Craigslist posting (I trolled Craigslist for a couple of weeks). The guy was a local businessperson. I’d been looking into retail/restaurant jobs and the pay was pretty dire. This guy only paid $13/hr, which is WAY less than I made the last time I was contracting for this kind of work ($26/hr–which was also a steal), but it was something I could do from home.

          I finished out the project for the guy, but decided that the anxiety dreams weren’t worth it.

    3. thenoiseinspace*

      It’s very difficult to get a part-time position after you already have a full-time one, in my experience. Managers don’t want to hire you because you have so many schedule constraints, and the part-time job will be seen as just a short-term thing to make ends meet. Despite the fact that it’s completely unrealistic to want an employee to commit to a low-paid, part-time job for a long time, most employers want a long-term commitment, and the market is bad enough that they can demand it. If you really need the second job, it’s very likely that you’ll have to lie to get it, honestly. I know that no one likes doing that, but that’s been my experience.

      1. Elle D*

        That’s what I was thinking. I know if I were a retail hiring manager, I’d be hesitant to hire me with my limited hours. I’m a terrible liar so I’m not sure if I’d be able to pull that off.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You will be fine. You have nights and weekends which are the hardest spots to fill. You will find plenty of places.

          My word of caution is to look at what time they close. If the place closes at 11 just automatically assume you will be the night person staying to 11. This works in to 11:15 or 11:30. The holiday hours will be at least one hour longer.

          Tell the truth, up front.
          You will find that many of your coworkers also have day jobs.

    4. Jubilance*

      I’ve done it – I worked FT in a lab, and then PT at a retail store 1-2 evenings a week and a few hours on the weekend. I never had a problem getting hours but I started to resent having to go to work again after being at work all day – I didn’t get to relax until about 10pm at night. Then there was the time I came home at 10pm after working both jobs & discovered my apt was flooded thanks to a leak in the apt upstairs, had I not had to go straight from Job 1 to Job 2 I could have stopped the damage sooner. Anyway, have you considered that getting a retail job may not be the best way to make the $ you need? Are there other things you can do, like freelancing, selling things, cutting expenses, etc? Most retail places are going to give you $10/hr max & after taxes , gas, etc it may not be the best way for you to make money.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        Yeah, this. Retail is 99% guaranteed to pay you minimum wage, and is that really the best way to go for $100 extra dollars (pre-tax!) every week?

    5. Aunt Vixen*

      I agree with everyone who says adding another job on the same days as your existing job is or can be a challenge. (I had two part-time restaurant jobs one summer and that was a scheduling nightmare – at least in your case you’d be able to say you’re never going to be available M-F 8-5, instead of trying to fit one part-time schedule around another one when neither was ever the same one week to the next.)

      Weekends can be a different matter, though. I have an extremely part-time weekend job as a church musician, which brings in some welcome extra cash – it does mean I work a five-and-a-half-day week, but the church gig almost never even coincides with the day job, much less conflicts with it. (This week I had to split a little early on Wednesday in order to be on time for the evening service. But usually it’s Sunday morning and that’s it.)

    6. Sunflower*

      I waitressed for about 2 months while I had a full time job. Keep in mind- I knew going into the waitressing gig I was only going to do it for 2 months so knowing there was an endpoint was the only thing that kept me going.

      My full time job was one that was in and out, same time everyday so I never had to worry about getting stuck at work and missing my shift. Also, since I knew I’d only be working a short time, I felt full speed. I worked 5 days a week waitressing, weekends included, so I didn’t have a day off for 2 months. A day when I didn’t waitress was a day off to me. I made a little over 2,000 in tips so it was nice for my savings but I’m not sure I could have done it longer than that.

      I’ve been looking into promo work. It’s higher pay than hourly plus you pick when you want to do it so you don’t have to work around a schedule and request off. So far I haven’t found anything though :(

    7. littlemoose*

      I did this for a year and a half, but it only worked for me for a few reasons:
      1. I had a long history of working at this retail establishment previously, and so my manager was willing to hire me back at about 8 hrs/wk with limited availability. Without a pre-existing relationship with an employer, I think that schedule would be difficult to get.
      2. I had very predictable hours at my full-time job, and it was close to the store where I worked. I never got held up at my FT job to the point I couldn’t make it to the store.
      3. I really liked the people I worked with at the store, and I got a great discount. While the extra income was nice, it wasn’t much, and these other factors helped make it worth it for me.
      That said, I did feel stretched thin a lot, and my apartment was often a mess because I had trouble finding the time and energy to keep up a better cleaning schedule. It’s certainly doable, but that’s my two cents.

    8. wesgerrr*

      I’m currently doing this, Elle D! It’s an odd situation since second job is at a small store where I used to be a manager, in college. I had tried this first at another store, an unnamed department store, and it was too depressing and dragged me down. For this to work, you have to really love both jobs. It’s not all fun and extra cash, though. My normally clean apartment is an absolute wreck constantly. And I don’t get to work out like I used to, every day.
      To answer your question: you’ll be a little crazy, always looking for clean socks and underwear from the laundry you forgot to do between works, but slightly richer. You have to like both jobs for it to work. Retail stores know that many people work two jobs, and they aren’t shy about hiring people with other commitments. Let both jobs know about each other to prevent any confusion. I hope this helps.

    9. LV*

      I did it for a few months – full-time internship, 8 to4, and then 10 hours a week working at my uni library (5-10 one weeknight, 12-5 Sundays). It wasn’t terrible since it was only 10 extra hours, but I was glad when my internship ended and I didn’t have to do both anymore!

      I don’t think you’ll have too much difficulty finding a retail job if you can commit to working weekends. But I also think there’s only so long you can work 7 days a week before burning out. :( Take care of yourself!

    10. Trixie*

      This best luck I had with this was a seasonal PT job in the evenings/weekends. It happened to be in a doll catalog / call center so super busy over the holidays and it was fairly easy to pick up extra hours if you so chose. My goal was paying off debt so I had finish line in mind when things got tough. If I were to do this again I would keep an eye out for a holiday gig again and then decide if it was feasible to stay on after the holidays.

  75. drunner*

    Do you think adult children should be required to go on family vacation? I’m 25 and have an older and younger sibling. We are all 3 years apart. I don’t want to go on my family vacation this year. I have limited vacation time and will need to take 6 days off- half of my vacation time and I’d rather use those days on other things. This is over the summer and I am in a summer share beach house and I will have to miss 2 weekends for this. My mother doesn’t understand that. She thinks I don’t love her because I won’t go. I feel guilty though. What do I say to make her understand it’s not that I don’t love her, I just would rather do other stuff with that time?

    1. fposte*

      What does “required” mean here? It sounds more like you’re just being begged and feeling guilty. (Understandably–your mother sounds pretty good at the guilt. Really, after 25 years of knowing you a failure to appear for a two week vacation means she’s suddenly unloved? Tell her she raised you better than that.)

      I personally don’t think you have to do a damn thing with your family once you’re over 18 if you don’t want to, and that if you’ve been doing this annually even since then, you may well want to start breaking this habit so you’re not resentfully vacationing with your parents forever. (I’m surprised your other two siblings have been going along with this for so long too, and I suspect if you bow out they may delightedly follow your lead.)

      However, I think you want a magic solution where you don’t come but her feelings aren’t hurt, and there isn’t one there. You may be able to figure out some kind of mollifying action–offer an unexpected weekend with her later, plan some regular Skyping if you’re not already (are you close enough with your siblings to see if they can have your back on this, maybe with the agreement that you’ll do the same for them?). But I think if you want to pull out of this thing, it’s totally fair to do so. You just have to negotiate the Mom obstacle–and just as letting you go is part of her task, negotiating the Mom obstacle as you separate is part of yours.

      1. drunner*

        The thing is I live 30 minutes from my parents. I go home at least once every week or two so it’s not like I never see my parents. The issue is I don’t make much money so my mom doesn’t understand why I’d turn down a free vacation. My parents helps me out every so often and buys groceries for me sometimes and still keeps me on her phone plan. I can’t deny that that little bit helps A LOT. Last year I tried to do this and my sister told me my mom should completely cut me off financially. I guess my real question is this grounds to cut someone off completely?

        also I obviously have a lot of family politics going on and have been seeing a therapist about navigating all of this.

        1. Jen RO*

          Well, you can’t exactly frame family relations in terms of “having grounds” to do something… even if your mom is wrong in the view of everyone on the planet, she can still cut you off.

        2. fposte*

          I don’t think anybody can really answer the “Is this grounds for cutting somebody off?” question, because the reason why families cut people off or don’t are utterly individual and require no logical justification. They shouldn’t, in my opinion, but then in my opinion your sister shouldn’t have suggested it, either, so you see how much my opinion gets you.

          I’m wondering a little about the summer share and how that came about in light of the other stuff. Is it paid? Did you take it knowing about the conflict with the vacation? Is it possible you were hoping that would help extricate you from the situation? I actually think it could do some work on the extrication, but the time to mention it is when the family vacation first comes up–“Oh, but I booked that place with Jane this summer!” However, it sounds like being financially beholden to your parents really makes you feel beholden, period, so if you had to pay for the share that money might have bought you more if it staved off some need for parental contributions.

          Ultimately, the kind of people who would find it easiest to maneuver through this are the kind of people who didn’t grow up in this family–somebody who can say “Of course I love you, Mom, I see you every weekend!”, give her a hug, and head breezily out the door (while telling sister “Seriously? It was one Barbie fifteen years go–get over it”) would be just fine here. But growing up in this family means that’s probably not you, and that you’re worried that wanting to take this vacation away from her maybe *does* mean you’re a bad offspring and that you don’t love your mother the way you should. And you’re a fine offspring, and you love her just fine; the question is whether you can stay sure in that while choosing your vacation over hers.

          1. drunner*

            I do the share every summer(about 6 summers now, it’s completely paid off) and we go on this vacation every summer. They always overlap and I have been trying to maneuver out of the family vacation for a couple years. This is the first year I’ve had a salaried job and vacation time I needed to work with though.

            I’m more bothered by the emotional blackmail than the money. I’m going to try to assert myself and if it isn’t well received, I’m going to bring her to my therapy session with me. My therapist has asked about me bringing her a few times and I’ve been very hesitant but if this is something that is going to cause this much ruckus, I should give it shot.

            Thanks so much for all your help. Just need to learn to assert myself more!

        3. Colette*

          What’s more important to you – the financial support or the ability to choose when and if to go on vacation?

          I think you’d have more standing to bow out if you weren’t financially dependent. (I’m actually pretty strongly in the “adults pay their own way except, possibly, in emergencies, BTW.) Your parents can cut you off because you don’t go on vacation, or because they don’t like who you’re dating, or because you cut your hair too short.

          Should they? No, they should provide support (or not), without the guilt and manipulation, but that is not up to you or me.

      2. Jamie*

        I personally don’t think you have to do a damn thing with your family once you’re over 18 if you don’t want to

        Note to self – make sure fposte never speaks to my kids near the holidays because the three of them standing in front of the tree for a picture is non-negotiable. I no longer make it a card and send it out, I respected their views on that as soon as I was asked to stop. But for me? Dozens and dozens of cookies, and loaves of cranberry bread, and ham that I make because they love even though I hate it…and getting all their personal favorite candy for their stockings…

        They can stand there, smile, and pretend they love each other once every 365 days. I mean…technically they don’t have to. I won’t kick them out or anything…if they want to break their mother’s heart that’s okay…

        Seriously, I think their grumbling about it and then caving is my favorite part of Christmas.

        Seriously though, I agree. It’s nice to be invited – but I don’t feel entitled to my kids time off and I wouldn’t guilt them into going because my kids aren’t shy about expressing their boredom and I don’t have to pay and leave home to hear people whining about stuff. I can just listen to myself.

        Regarding the OP: financial help from a parent doesn’t purchase your unquestioned obedience or control over every aspect of your life. I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d cut any of my kids off financially if they needed me…but has your mom ever indicated she would do that? Or is your sister just running her mouth?

        Because on a weekly basis I get the helpful suggestions from one of them to toss one of the other ones out because they take too long in the bathroom, didn’t feed the dogs before going out so now I have to, or the heinous offense of eating the last of the Count Chocula.

        But as fposte says there is no grounds for cutting someone off. Some people do it over an argument and others put up with years of toxic abuse and never do.

        You’re gaining independence and finding your way in the world and that’s really exciting but it’s also scary – for both you and your parents. I worry far more about my kids now than when they were small and I wouldn’t have thought it possible – but the real world has problems that can’t be fixed with a kiss and a popsicle and we know we have to let go…and we want you to be independent, happy, successful adults. But it’s a difficult transition on both ends, so remember that and be kind.

        IOW maintain your boundaries but make sure mom knows you’re just opting out of a vacation – not the family.

    2. De Minimis*

      I had to put my foot down a while back regarding that, especially when it’s a situation where they expect you to do the driving. It’s up to you what you want to do with your vacation time. I decided I did not want to spend it going places I didn’t want to go or doing things I did not really want to do.

    3. Anonymous*

      I don’t understand that bit about the summer share beach house. Are you saying that you already have a vacation planned and it conflicts with your family vacation? If not, I honestly would just suck it up and go on the family vacation. As a data point, I’m a year older than you. I used to hate being ‘forced’ to do things with my family too. This advice column response helped me change my thinking on this: http://www.theawl.com/2013/12/ask-polly-my-mom-keeps-guilting-me-about-visiting-for-christmas.

      1. drunner*

        Basically I have a beach house every weekend over the summer that I pay flat rate to have all summer. I don’t have to take days off of work to go down to the house. If I go on family vacation, i will have to take 6 week days off and will miss 2 weekends at the beach house. It’s not a planned vacation but I do technically lose money by not going down.

        The problem is this is not THE ONLY thing she wants from me. I see my parents once every week or 2 and my mom complains that isn’t enough. Spending a couple hours with her is draining. She isn’t abusive in any way but when I do see her, all I hear is that I’m not trying hard enough to find a new job or find a boyfriend. You can kind of see why I don’t want to be trapped with that for a week..

      2. fposte*

        I love Heather to fierce little pieces, but I think this is a different situation–drunner is already deeply involved with her family, while the LW at the Awl was talking about a once-a-year visit to people she didn’t otherwise see much.

    4. Jen RO*

      No, you shouldn’t be required to go – by which I mean your mother shouldn’t be using emotional blackmail to convince you to come with them. You’re old enough and your family needs to understand that things change and you nevertheless still love them.

    5. Graciosa*

      This is a tough one. No matter what you say, it’s really hard to convey a credible message of “I love you dearly and don’t want to spend time with you.”

      That said, I am actually firmly on your side. You need to act like you’re an independent adult with a busy schedule who just can’t manage the proposed trip. Then you need to continue to do other things (not sure what is appropriate in your family – regular phone calls, emails, whatever) that demonstrate your continued affection for your family and your desire to stay in contact.

      Your mother is probably reacting to the perceived loss of her family. Her children are now adults, and accepting that is a big deal, especially when coupled with the belief that the first “family vacation” without the whole family marks the tragic end of an era.

      A couple thoughts on interactions. An independent adult does not have to justify her decisions to refuse invitations.

      Mom: But WHY can’t you come?
      Daughter: Because it’s just not going to work for me this time (said firmly, but pleasantly). I’m so sorry that I won’t be able to make it.

      M: What could be more important than being with your family?
      D: It’s not a matter of importance, it’s a matter of scheduling, and I won’t be able to make this trip. I’m sorry it just isn’t going to work out.

      M: You don’t love us any more! If you did, you would want to spend time us!
      D: Mom, I know you don’t mean that. Are you telling me that I have to do whatever you ask to prove my love to you? Because I know better than to fall for that, and you wouldn’t want me to believe it coming from a boyfriend. The proper response would be that if you love me, you wouldn’t ask me to prove it, but I’m not going to argue with you about this. You know I love you and Dad very much.

      The key to doing this successfully is actually your attitude. Whining, arguing, and resentful capitulation are all signs of immaturity. You need to be comfortable enough with yourself to stand up to them (okay, let’s be honest – defy your mom, which isn’t easy) as a confident adult who isn’t going to allow this to turn into a drama. This may even require excusing yourself from interactions (“I’m sorry you’re so upset, Mom, and you’re clearly not up to continuing this conversation, so I’m going to leave / hang up and give you the time you need to compose yourself. We can talk again when you’re more yourself.”). As odd as this sounds, you may need to train your mother that you are not going to respond to emotional blackmail, tantrums, or tears.

      I hope that this isn’t as difficult for you in practice as you fear it might be – and if this is just normal angst over your growing up and your mom is basically reasonable, you will get through this. You should know that you will probably need to do this at some point, and it’s good practice for when you are summoned for major holidays (with grandchildren) to multiple locations and you really want to stay home.

      Good luck.

      1. drunner*

        Thanks I really appreciate this. I have been working this out a lot with my therapist and this is pretty much the exact advice she has given me. This is definitely more about me needing to assert my independence too. My therapist has asked a couple times about me bringing my mom in and I don’t want to but if she doesn’t respond in a good way to these things than I might have to.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Bring her to the therapist with you, no matter what the outcome here.
          Since this is her pattern, one example is not going to change her pattern. If you get her to back down over the summer vacation the battle will only start up over something else.

          No how, NO way, does your refusal to go on vacation with them have anything to do with loving or not loving them. This is manipulation. See boyfriend example above.

          And yes. money always comes with strings. They feel that they have purchased a part of you by paying for groceries , etc. In order to make them let go of that feeling of entitlement, you will have to let go of the money.

          See the pattern of manipulation here?
          If arguing about love doesn’t work their next tactic is to argue over money.

          You are supposed to feel guilty- that is their goal.

          When I was 19-20 I got my first car. All my on my own. I was broke after that and the car needed tires. I priced tires and concluded I needed $400 for tires. (I actually needed someone to help me pick out cheaper tires.) However, a family member offered to pick up the tab on as a loan. Even though it was dangerous for me to be without snows, I said NO to the loan. Family member’s interest rate included arriving at her place at 7 am every Saturday to clean, run errands and so on. In other words, she would own a part of me and would run me ragged with an endless to-do list.

          I sweated it out that entire winter with my lousy tires. That was awful, but it was easier than taking on a debt that I could never entirely pay off.

    6. Del*

      I actually had my parents thank me when I declined to go on a family trip — they were taking my niece and nephew to Disney World, and I’d only just been a year or two before, so I told them to skip forking over the money and I’d see them at Christmas. They were appreciative since they didn’t want to be out the money for a vacation I wouldn’t enjoy very much.

      Maybe try taking that approach with your parents? Make it less about “I don’t want to do the thing with you” and more about “I don’t want to do that thing but let’s do a different thing together at a different time.”

  76. A Jane*

    The IT Manager’s post above prompted my open thread question. What business books would you recommend? The Power of Habit is one of the better ones I’ve read in a long time.

    1. Noelle*

      This a business book per se, but Women Don’t Ask is a great one. It’s about how women tend to hurt themselves in the workplace by not sticking up for themselves or asking for opportunities like raises, promotions, bonuses, projects, etc.

      1. Lore*

        Yes! And its “sequel,” Ask for It is the follow-up training course in developing negotiation skills. Geared toward women but applicable to anyone with anxiety about asking for anything, and unbelievably useful.

        1. Noelle*

          I loved that they actually address the WHY, and not just the what. I thought it was so interesting that even today, many employers have huge double standards for women, and how a lot of managers still expect to pay men what they’re worth (and demand), whereas they try to pay women the salary they NEED.

          1. Alicia*

            Oh my gosh, this! Thank you for saying that. I am in the process of going through a negotiation and I got stared at like I have two heads.

    2. hilde*

      ITA with The Power of Habit. I don’t love business self-help books usually, but this one was very engaging and had some fascinating stories in it. It really made me think about my fountain pop habit in a new light.

  77. ChristineSW*

    Drat! Already nearly 400 comments! Gonna try this despite just getting coffee into my system.

    Another question related to my possible PhD quest: Has anyone taken the GRE recently? I’m trying to get a sense of the experience. When I took my social work licensing exam, it was pretty much just me in the testing room and everything was computer based. Is the GRE the same way?

    1. Noelle*

      I took the GRE a couple years ago, and it is completely computer based. I was put into a room where there were a bunch of little cubicles and a computer in each one.

      1. Lara*

        I’m studying for it now- taking it 3 weeks! They do have a few online practice tests that simulate the actual test experience, which has been really helpful.

        1. Noelle*

          I used Kaplan and the Princeton Review books to study. Both of them were helpful, but I also did MUCH better on the actual test than I did on the practice tests.

      2. ChristineSW*

        Oh so it’s not like a classroom-like setting where there’s one proctor giving verbal instructions and everyone takes the test at the same time? I have no idea why, but that’s what I’ve been envisioning even though my LSW test was completely independent (and blissfully quiet!). D’oh!

        1. Noelle*

          Nope. When I took it, they explained the test format first (and let you practice on the computer as long as you wanted to get comfortable before starting the test), but it was basically a queue where you would get to go in and take the test as soon as someone else finished.

        2. bev*

          No. Actually the GRE can either be done on computer or on paper. It depends on the location (it’s either or but not both types).

    2. LPBB*

      It is completely computer based and you can schedule the day and time you want to take it.

      FYI, they are VERY strict about searching your pockets for contraband. I think I ended up having to empty my pockets two or three times before I could start. Also, don’t try to stretch out your back in Child’s Pose midway through the test because the proctor will scold you!

    3. Stephanie*

      Yup, took it a month ago. It’s all computer-based and adaptive (i.e., the subsequent sections get harder if you do well at first). I liked the Barron’s books–I found they best mimicked the actual test’s level of difficulty. The PowerPrep software from ETS’ website is good for simulating the computer-based testing experience.

      For vocab, I liked the Kaplan flashcards. They come in a little box that you can carry around.

      I would schedule it now, as test centers can fill up pretty fast (especially if you live near a large university).

      1. ChristineSW*

        Thanks everyone! I’ve been on the fence about the PhD, so is it even worth my time to take the test? I know the scores are good for, I believe, 5 years, so it’s not like I have to decide immediately.

        Here’s the rotten part: Because of my vision impairment, I’ll need to request screen magnification. It sounds fairly straightfoward–in fact, the accommodations process for my licensing exam was, to my recollection, not that bad. However, with the GRE, if you need to request accommodations, ETS requires you to submit, by mail, the documentation BEFORE you even apply for the test! It could be up to six weeks for them to approve the accommodation. Only THEN can I register for the test. That’s another big reason I’ve been holding off–the process sounds like a giant PITA.

        /end rant.

  78. Noelle*

    Discussion question – How important is it to you that you like your coworkers? I just left a dead end job where the coworkers were awesome. Now I am in a job that is much better for my career, but the coworkers are not great. I’m mostly ok with that, but one day it would be nice to have both!

    1. Jules*

      Research says you feel happier at work if you have a best friend at work. When my best friend at work left at a previous job, it felt lonelier. Especially when you need that social interraction. But not everyone need them. There are loners who are fine with being impersonal at work. That is ok too.

      1. Noelle*

        I had a best friend at one of my old jobs. Even though it was a terrible job, having someone to commiserate with made a huge difference.

      2. Jamie*

        I read somewhere once that if you have 2-3 work friends that’s the difference between work being pleasant and miserable – all other things being equal.

        My social needs are few but even I would find it hard to work in a place where I didn’t have any work buddies. No matter how fulfilling the work.

        If there is someone in the meeting with whom you cannot make eye contact because you know they will want to laugh/cry at the same absurd stuff that just struck you….that makes all the difference.

        1. Noelle*

          Yeah, that’s the thing. My office is divided into people who are creating the absurd stuff, and people who are sucking up to the people creating the absurd stuff. It’s not unbearable, but it’s hard not having a lunacy buddy.

    2. Sunflower*

      How long have you been there? Things could change..

      When i worked in a restaurant, it’s pretty much all about your co-workers. They are almost your family. It’s really cool to have that but at the same time, it was very cliquey and very obvious when people were left out of things or didn’t want to include people in stuff.

      It’s definitely more important that you got out of a dead end job though! No quality of co worker can overpower that IMO

      1. Noelle*

        I’ve been here about three months. My coworkers aren’t awful, but they are annoying. I’m also the only female in the office, which is a bit of a factor.

        I also used to work at a restaurant, and I feel like you meet a lot more people and the setting makes it easier to become friends. In this new job I work in a small office and there’s very little turnover. I love the work, but not the people.

        1. Sunflower*

          Restaurants are definitely easier. Some days I really miss working in a restaurant honetsly..

          This is tough though. I like my job but am really annoyed by my co-workers. If you took my job and put it into a bigger office with better people, I’d be really happy. My one co-worker literally wont shut up unless you physically walk away from her. My boss is constantly trying to prove how cool he is (bro I really don’t care). One won’t stop telling stories even when you ask him not to.

          I’m not sure if it’s the actual people or just the environment we are in. All people do is complain about this and that here but no one does anything about it. I’ve only been here about a year so I have no pull. 2 of my bosses have been here for 9 years- it annoys me that they complain and then do nothing to try to fix the situation.

          1. Noelle*

            I miss working in a restaurant too! Except, you know, working for less than $2 an hour and having customers yell at you and smelling like old food and dish rags every night.

            I also used to have a coworker who was a yapper. She would come in to my office and talk for HOURS, and if I tried to stop it she would go to my boss and complain about me being “mean” to her.

    3. Jen RO*

      Very important. My job got much, much better once a couple of new people joined the team and I clicked with them more. Before that, I was considering quitting; I ended up staying 2.5 more years.

    4. Yup*

      There’s degrees of like. Awesome coworkers make a bad job bearable and a good job even better, but my minimum requirement is just that you’re reasonably polite and do your work well. We don’t have to *like* each other, we just have to be able to get along. You’re right, having both the great job and the great coworkers is the ideal, but a great job with okay people is still pretty good. And FWIW, there are some people that I didn’t click with initially that I warmed up to over time.

      1. Noelle*

        Yeah, I feel like loving the work makes up for being indifferent to the coworkers. And I get along with them pretty well, they just have a lot of personality quirks that rub me the wrong way.

    5. Scott M*

      It just really depends on your personality. I have very few friends in my personal life, so it’s not important to have friends at work. I value my private time and like to be alone (although I am married and have a family).

      All of my current coworkers are nice, but I wouldn’t call them friends. Even when I occasionally had a coworker that I ‘clicked’ with, it wasn’t a big deal when they left. People move in and out of your life all the time, that’s just a fact of life.

      But then perhaps I’m weird. :)

    6. CollegeAdmin*

      If I didn’t have such wonderful office mates, I would have left this job already, and I’ve only been here for a year. My bosses are crazy, the pay sucks, the commute is terrible, and there’s no room for advancement. But my little office of 4 is awesome, so I am putting up with the rest for another year or two to 1) avoid a job-hopper resume and 2) to earn my masters’ degree with tuition reimbursement. If I hated my coworkers in addition to everything else, I would have left months ago.

      1. Noelle*

        I’m fortunately in a field where job hopping is not a big problem, but I still want to stay here for at least a year or two. Fortunately, although my coworkers aren’t ideal, the rest of the job is good.

    7. Lindsay*

      I have two coworkers and I dislike both of them. I have friends elsewhere in the building, though. It is very important to me to have people that I can be friendly with at work, if not friends. I am miserable working with two people that are crazy/condescending. This is probably also a workplace culture thing, though.

      1. Noelle*

        I fortunately have a few friends who work nearby so I at least have people to get lunch or coffee with. And I think our office has a similar workplace culture thing, because they all think they are super smart and awesome, and they spend a hell of a lot of time bragging about it.

    8. ChristineSW*

      It’s not a deal-breaker, but having a good rapport with coworkers is pretty important for me. I’m not necessarily looking for a BFF, but I’d like to have someone I can at least have lunch with a few days a week.

    9. Anonyyyy*

      I wrote in a couple months ago about wanting to ask about employee’s ages because I’m 25, have a bad work environment/bad pay and don’t click with anyone at my current job. Even though I’m getting good experience at my job, I am miserable and can’t help but feel even if I had 1 friend here things would be a lot better. For my next job, it’s obviously very important to me that I like my co-workers. But I can see as I get older that not mattering as much.

      1. Noelle*

        I remember that letter! I hope you have luck in finding a job with a better atmosphere. Maybe one thing you could do without being too blatant about asking about culture is ask if you can meet people you’ll be working with beforehand.

        I’m at the point in my life where it’s not essential that I have friends at work, but it would definitely be nice. It’s not even so much an age thing, because we’re probably all within a decade of each others’ age.

  79. thenoiseinspace*

    I’ve posted this before, but I’m trying again in the hope of more responses this time…

    How do you go about finding a recruiter, especially long-distance? I’m job-hunting long-distance and I think a recruiter in the city I’m moving to would help, but I don’t know how to sift through and tell the scams from the good ones when I don’t have the money to fly over and meet them in person, and have next to no connections in the city yet. Does anyone here have experience with a good recruiter from across the country?

    1. Anonicorn*

      I’ve never sought one out, but they keep finding me on Linkedin. So that might be a place to start.

      I have worked with Robert Half before, and can vouch for them (at least the office in my area). The representative seemed to know that specific employer well, and he gave me tips about the kind of personal qualities they desired and helped me better match my resume for the position.

      1. bev*

        I second Robert Half and other large temp agencies (including AppleOne, Kelly Services, etc). These generally offer their clients benefits.

    2. Elle D*

      I would also use your network. You might not have any immediate connections in the new city, but someone you know might know someone there who can help.

      When I was looking for a job in my current city, an acquaintance mentioned that her sister was a recruiter in that area. It was a long distance job search so I wasn’t able to go meet with her in person, but the acquaintance put us in touch over the phone. Although she was just an acquaintance and not a close friend, she knew me well enough to tell her sister that I maintained a neat and professional appearance and had good communication skills – two things that a recruiter might be concerned about if they couldn’t meet with you in person. The phone interview went well and the sister was able to act as my recruiter during my job search.

      Also, look for recruiters that have offices in your city and the city you want to relocate to. It may be possible to go to the local office for an interview and have a local recruiter pass along their evaluation to a recruiter that operates in your target city office. I’m not sure if all firms would do this, but the one that I was working with suggested this as a possible solution depending on how my phone interview went.

  80. JH*

    I’ve been working at my current job for about a year and a half. My boss recently hired a new, very sharp employee. She works out of one of our offices located a few hours away from mine. I’m pretty sharp myself, and I can appreciate the fact that she is very intelligent and will be great at her job.

    My boss recently told me the new employee had expressed interest in my duties. I specialize in one very specific area, and my job duties include research and writing, problem solving, leading meetings, and teaching others in my profession. My job is unique. It is the only one of its kind.

    My boss told me he wanted me to involve the new employee in some of my projects, or to allow her to take on some of my projects. He also assured me he wasn’t trying to replace me. I was cool about it, and I really wouldn’t mind involving her in some of my work, or handing off a project to her now and then. But I wonder if I should be worried? What do you guys think?

    1. fposte*

      Maybe I’m a Pollyanna, but this sounds like an opportunity to me. You can expand, secure, explore, etc. with a lieutenant stuff you can’t on your own. I was a one-man band for a long time in a similarly unique situation, and while it took me a little bit to get used to having somebody to work with, it’s been really gratifying.

      However, it does depend on the person–I got to pick mine, which made a big difference.

    2. Chriama*

      Use this as an opportunity to grow. You can mentor/train another employee and use that extra bandwidth to take on additional projects of your own. Unless there’s a reason to doubt your boss’ word, don’t worry about it.

      However: as she takes on more of your work you shouldn’t become redundant. Keep growing in your skills and maybe try taking on more experimental projects. You should be able to show your growth and progression to potential employers even if you aren’t looking, because those are the same arguments you would bring to your current boss for raises, promotions, etc.

    3. JH*

      Thanks for the advice guys. I just thought of a great way to include her on one my current projects. In doing so, I will be able to take some of the burden off my shoulders. I’m liking this so far.

    4. Laura2*

      I don’t think you should be worried for now. It sounds like a good opportunity to have another person to work with, who might bring a different perspective on some things and sometimes it’s easier to have two people working on something than one.

      I’d only start getting worried if it looks like she’s getting the good assignments before you have a chance to ask for them.

  81. Jules*

    It’s been a rough few weeks. I went to a conflict mgmt class and that perked me up a lot. So I’ve been practicing.

    How do you evaluate when to give peer to peer feedback and when you don’t? My co-chair has been doing something (technical IT related) that I understand is important where he came from but it doesn’t make sense in this environment. I didn’t want to discredit his idea so we discussed it in a meeting with other technical people and they didn’t agree with him. I took the coward way out and told him to consult with the vendors if what he wants to do is even doable.

    He is an introvet/reserved/quiet and I don’t want him to stop speaking up. But I needed to say ‘no’ to this one item. I usually explain why the decision is made but I can see him mentally tuning off when I try. I know he thinks he knows more then I do, but I have implemented many systems before so I look not only at the system but also the most practical way for it to work for the department. Should I say something about his attitude or walk away from it. I want to concentrate on the work, not personalities. It doesn’t help that I’d prefer to avoid confrontation at all cost.

    Have anyone else who hates confrontation deal with something like this? What did you do?

    1. Scott M*

      Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that someone will be upset with your decisions and may not like you very much as a result.

    2. Chriama*

      Since you’re worried about shutting him down, I think you should start by asking him what his reasoning is for the task, I think the best thing to do is plan out the discussion ahead of time and come up with rebuttals to his potential responses.

      You say he mentally tunes out when you try to explain things to him. That’s a problem that needs to be addressed asap. If he does things after you’ve explained why it isn’t feasible and in the face of significant advice to the contrary (e.g. the other technical people), you need to talk to your boss. Not “tattling”, but let him know that this is a problem and you need help to relate to him better. It’s different because he’s a coworker instead of a subordinate, but if you’re jointly responsible for the project his actions affect your work and you need to make that clear to your boss.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Bob, it feels like you are tuning out on me. Is there something that you feel I am missing? Or something you would like me to know?”

  82. jennie*

    My husband and I are both somewhat dissatisfied with our jobs lately. We both love to travel and experience new places and I was thinking it would be great if one or both of us could find a job in another country for a few years to experience another culture. We’re Canadian. He’s in corporate communications and I’m in HR. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with seeking overseas jobs? We’d really be open to anywhere – the US, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America… not picky. Unfortunately we’re not fluent in any other languages but I have decent reading comprehension in French/Spanish/Italian.

    Where to start?

    1. vvondervvoman*

      If you’re in your 20’s still, you can try a working holiday visa. From what I’ve heard, Canada has plenty of agreements, unlike the US. I think US, UK, Australia, maybe New Zealand and Ireland.

          1. vvondervvoman*

            Another option may be to search for remote work (understandably difficult for communications/hr) and apply for a long-term tourist visa wherever you decide to go. That’s what my husband is planning on doing when we move abroad, but he already has the remote job. Many countries would love for you to come in (with a fat amount of $ in a bank account to make sure they won’t have to support you later) and spend you money but not take a job away from a citizen.

            With the lack of language skills and the competition for visas in English speaking countries, I’d suggest looking into teaching English as a foreign language, especially if you both want to work. I’ve heard of so many couples doing this together and planning on a year, and ending up staying for 3+ years because they love it so much. You both may have a shot of being able to teach business English or corporate English since you’re both in general business. fields.

    2. bev*

      How much would you guys like/need to earn? How much or how little are you willing to live on? It’s very hard to get a job pretty much anywhere right now and being a foreigner will make things even harder. Have you thought about finding a job with a multinational company in Canada right now and transferring later?

  83. TheSnarkyB*

    Damn, the first time I remember to come on early for an open thread and it’s a midnight one!

    Ok y’all- email greetings and signatures. I need your help. I’m really awkward and have a hard time sending emails to people I don’t know. A big part of that is that most of my job search consists of the “resume + cover letter” cold call type application, so these emails are really important and I agonize over every little thing.
    Questions:
    1. Do you think it sounds odd to say:
    “Greetings, Ms. Lastname,” -is “greetings” awkward? Do you call a contact Ms. Lastname if you’re the applicant and you’ve never met the person?

    2. What are your favorite email greetings and sign-offs, and do you have any advice for me?

    1. AVP*

      I like “Hi, ___” or “Hello, ____.” “Greetings” is fine but makes me giggle because sounds a little like “Greetings, earthlings!”

      I think you’re probably overthinking this though – for job-hunting, unless you put something REALLY strange, no one will think twice.

    2. JH*

      Mrs. Lastname,

      My resume and cover letter are attached for your review.

      Thanks,

      Jasper J. Jones

      Unless the ad only includes a first name. Just use the first name in that instance.

      No greetings or salutations or hellos. Just business.

    3. Jules*

      Don’t mean to be snarky but when I read the word greetings… I hear, “Greeting, earthlings…” Maybe it’s just me. Hi works just as well I think. Hi! or Hi First Name! Last name seems weird unless the industry requires it.

    4. Yup*

      Are you talking about application emails? For those, I stick with medium-formal for the first go (Dear Mr./Ms or Dear Hiring Manager, and signed Sincerely or Regards) and then follow their lead on the subsequent stuff. So if they reply, “Hi Yup… Thank you, Susan”, I reply ‘Hi Susan… Thanks, Yup.”

      If you’re talking about general work correspondence, I usually start with “Hello FirstName… Regards, Yup” and adjust accordingly based on their replies. Unless there’s cultural aspects or really important titles (Brigadier General, Reverend, Madame President), using first names in business emails is pretty typical and “Dear/Hello so-and-so” is fine.

      1. TheSnarkyB*

        Talking about application emails- often where there is no job posting or ad to go off of. Thanks for your input!

    5. c*

      I think “Hello Mr./Ms. _________” is perfectly fine. “Greetings” sounds strange – no offense, but I think I’ve seen spam messages from Nigerian princes start out that way. As a sign-off, I agree that “Thanks” works, or “Best” if you want to be more formal.

      1. TheSnarkyB*

        This is one I was thinking about. Is it weird in an email to reference the timing? If you send an email after work hours, and you know they’ll read it in the morning…?
        And is it presumptuous to imply that they’ll read it right when you send it? (I know I overthink some things… These are the thoughts that occupy my mind.)

        1. JH*

          I think the good morning/afternoon should correspond with the time the email is sent. This philosophy does become problematic if you send emails at night, in the evening. When I was unemployed, I avoided sending resumes and cover letters after 5:00 P.M on a business day. My rationale was that most people in an 8-5 business setting will see a notification pop up as soon as your email arrives and will, hopefully, take a look at it right away.

          My only fear with using good morning/afternoon is that I will accidentally say one and mean the other. It happens sometimes that you lose track of time and don’t realize it is already afternoon, so you say good morning instead. It then becomes just another silly thing to worry about, which is why I prefer leaving out a greeting of any kind. If you feel you must include a greeting, a simple “Hello” will suffice.

    7. Mints*

      For initial cover letter, I usually go with Dear hiring manager: & Sincerely, (first and last).
      For scheduling, once they’ve introduced themselves, I go with Hi (first), & Best, / Regards, / Thank you, (first)

      I think it’s probably something people only notice when it’s unusual, though

  84. AVP*

    For the curly-haired ladies out there – I started using Miss Jessie’s Super Slip shampoo and Quick Curls cream about a month ago and I am SO addicted.

    I don’t think I would have bought them on my own (their marketing is mainly directed at African-Amnerican hair; I’m white) but BirchBox sent me some samples and I ended up buying them immediately. Another friend tried it as well, even though we’ve never been able to use the same curly-hair products – worked for her TOO.

    1. Sascha*

      I must try this. I have curly/wavy hair. It’s basically just a frizz fest. I was using shea butter conditioner for a while but it was making my hair too oily. Thanks for the tip!

      1. AVP*

        Oh I have one more suggestion for you then! I also can’t use the shea butter conditioners because they get too oily…but what I’ve started doing is mixing just a few drops into my regular conditioner before I use it. You get some of the benefits of the stronger stuff without the heaviness. (I think the one I use is called Shea Moisture Deep Conditioner or something like that. It smells really nice.)

        Or you could try putting some straight argan oil in your hair before you go to sleep, and washing it out the next morning. If you’re going to do that, it’s definitely cheaper to just buy Argan Oil and not bother with the branded “Moroccan Oil” – same active ingredients, half the price. I do that maybe once every other week.

        1. Sascha*

          Thanks! I will try that.

          Do you wear a shower cap or something on your head to keep the oil from getting all over your pillows? I just worry about it being TOO oily and feeling greasy all the time.

          1. Stephanie*

            I wear a satin cap at night. It looks goofy and I’ve had way too many “teachable moments” with non-black roommates, but it’s awesome for keeping in moisture and keeping your pillow clean.

            1. AVP*

              Oh that sounds awesome! Right now I just ball it up into a bun and hope it doesn’t get everywhere.

        1. Sascha*

          I’m a bit scared to. I just don’t want to get too oily, I can’t stand it when my scalp gets greasy feeling, but I may have to get over that.

          However I remember back when I thought my face was super oily, the problem was actually my skin is dry and I was plying it with products in an attempt to control the oil, which was just drying out my skin and causing it to produce more oil. It’s quite likely the same thing is happening with my hair/scalp. I may need to just bite the bullet and do these things and then it won’t be so oily as I think. This method certainly worked for my skin (I don’t wear makeup or use anything except a once-a-day wash with an organic soap and then a light moisturizer), but it was a painful few months to get through.

          1. Stephanie*

            Oooh, hard to say. I do know it takes time to adjust. I’d also only use a tiny amount of conditioner to start.

            My hair naturally tends to be dry (and I live in the desert on top of that) and I have very coarse hair, so I welcome the grease and oil.

            1. Mints*

              I alternate Co-washing and shampoo every other day. If I’m Co-washing a couple days in a row, it can get greasy if I don’t rinse all the way. I’m not sure if that defeats the purpose of Co-washing, but I just rinse until my hair feels normal, even if not squeaky clean like with shampoo

              2. TheSnarkyB*

                I don’t know if this matters, but there are also products specifically designed for co-washing. I use one called Coconut Cowash by some brand with a very brown/natural/likely marketed to
                Black ladies label. It’s a cute little pot you dig your fingers into.
                I’m really happy with my hair right after I co-wash, rinse it completely out, and then use a different conditioner. I just realized I’m probably wasting money. Whoops. Oh well, it makes my hair happy, and then for the next 3 days or so, I just condition lightly and leave some in.

    2. Z*

      I’m intrigued! I have curly hair too and have been getting along fine with regular shampoo, but would be interested in hearing more about other sorts of products. What exactly do the shampoo and cream do? I have thick and kind of coarse hair and have noticed that a lot of the stuff that works for my friends with finer hair doesn’t work on me, but I’d be up for trying this out.

      1. AVP*

        I have the type of hair where if I brush or comb it, I ruin all the curls, so I have to kind of detangle it with my fingers in the shower while it’s still wet – the shampoo REALLY helps with that and it detangles itself much better now (less work for me).

        The cream I put in while its damp and them diffuse it a bit. My problem in the past has been that it’ll start to frizz while it dries, and it’s been so much better at not doing that. I also like the Ouidad Climate Control for this, btw.

        1. Z*

          Thanks! I have the same issue re:brushes or combs with my hair, so I think I’ll check it out!

      2. Stephanie*

        Not sure of your ethnicity, but try products targeted toward African Americans (or multiracial people). I tried Kinky Curly products and found they didn’t work very well on my hair (super coarse), but they may work for you.

        1. TheSnarkyB*

          Also, everyone should check out the Curly Nikki website. She’s awesome and really thorough in her product reviews.

          1. Stephanie*

            +1 to Curly Nikki. Although I try not to get too deep in the forums–those’ll make me convinced everything I’m doing is wrong and I’m about to lose all my hair.

  85. Hooptie*

    General question. My friend Google was not helpful on this and actually caused more confusion.

    If a company has ‘lactation rooms’ that are actually very nice relaxing places, would it be discrimination if someone other than a nursing mother wanted to use the rooms and was told they couldn’t?

    The rooms must be reserved in 15 minute increments.

    We are wondering if, for example, a new dad could use the room with the nice comfy chair for 15 minutes of relaxation since he was up with the baby the night before, or if someone with migraines could relax in there with the lights off for 15 minutes to try to alleviate a headache.

    And what about people who just want a quiet place to meditate, or take a cat nap, or whatever?

    No one is begrudging the nursing moms their need to pump – we are just curious as to the legalities of the situation since HR is saying the rooms are for new moms only. Since they sit empty most of the day and since they are reserveable it doesn’t seem like access for the moms is a problem.

    My personal opinion is that anyone needing quiet time/a dark room/relaxation should be able to check out the room for 15 minutes as long as it is open. I have an employee with migraines and she sure could use the quiet, privacy, and relief the rooms offer when a headache comes on. Conference rooms around here are in very short supply so that isn’t a possibility for her either.

    I would like to see the rooms called relaxation rooms and have the usage expanded to relief of any type of medical or mental health condition even if it is only “Wow I am so stressed out and need to hide from people for 15 minutes”.

    Anyone have any idea of the legal side?

    1. fposte*

      It would not be discrimination to tell other people they couldn’t use the rooms. There’s no legal employee right to a quiet room sometimes.

      The federal law about breastfeeding spaces (which only applies to non-exempt workers) requires them to be “free from intrusion by coworkers or the public.” It is probably easier for the employer to say “It’s not for you, Dad” than to arrange a system that makes sure lactateuses aren’t disturbed by people just wanting a quiet moment.

      I get what you’re saying, but if the organization wanted to create relaxation rooms, they’d have created them. You can always propose that they become relaxation rooms as well, so long as you figure out a way that breastfeeders have priority and can kick other people out but can’t have the door knocked on while they’re in. But most organizations honestly aren’t that big on employees taking a relaxation break during the work day, however beneficial it might be.

    2. Chriama*

      No legal issue unless the migraine sufferer is under the ADA and the room would be a reasonable accommodation.

      However, you can make a case to HR about the benefit to worker health, productivity and morale.

      I’m not sure how the current set up works? Do the nursing moms reserve the rooms ahead of time, or do they just walk in? If you already have a formal reserving system, limit the times that other people can reserve the room, e.g. moms can do it days in advance but others can only do it on the same day.

      If you don’t have a formal system, you need to figure out a way that you can signify the room is occupied without making nursing moms feel self-conscious or rushed for time. A nursing mom should be able to get the room whenever she wants (legal restrictions), but she shouldn’t be worried that someone will interrupt her or that she’ll leave the room to a line of people waiting to use it.

      1. fposte*

        Even the ADA doesn’t require a specific use to be a reasonable accommodation, though, or automatically cover a migraine sufferer.

        1. Chriama*

          I agree. I was just pointing out that there’s no legal requirement for making accommodations available to people who don’t have a legal right to them.

      2. Hooptie*

        They have to reserve the rooms ahead of time. I think most just set up a recurring meeting request to keep it simple, and in line with their normal break times.

        Basically, if the door is closed, someone is in there, though you are expected to check to see if ANY room is booked before just walking in.

        As a side note, I think these are our only reserveable rooms with locking doors. Yes, let your mind wander as to why and you’re probably right. :)

        Sometimes law is fascinating. I often read Supreme Court decisions as a spare time activity, and am always interested in what makes protected classes protected and what the limits are. At what point does a protected class or the law actually punish or not allow equality amongst people? At what point can the dad say, “well hey this is discrimination because I am male”? When does it become ok for a non-parent to say, “I am not being treated fairly because I chose not to have kids (yet). ” Or better, at what point does it become a legal case that a court would actually agree to hear?

        I may just have my employee ask for use of the rooms under a reasonable ADA migraine accommodation and see what happens. It just doesn’t seem right that the rooms sit empty most of the time and others could be helped by being able to use them.

        1. fposte*

          Are you asking about what’s fair or what’s the law? Remember, the US tendency is to leave law out of it until it has to be brought in (often kicking and screaming) to deal with something that’s really hurting employees, not just something that isn’t a completely level playing field. It’s not discrimination against males because non-pregnant females aren’t allowed in either, and there’s no protection for the non-pregnant class generally, because they haven’t been discriminated against and thus there’s been no legal need to intervene. Somebody with actual legal experience can correct me, but from what I can see, landmark employment cases are generally dependent on their being representative enough to draw big-name alliance and possibly funding.

          If your employee has migraines, then by all means have him ask for the use of the room. I feel a little bit like you buried the lede if that’s the issue :-); it doesn’t seem like it rises literally to the level of a federal case. In general, though, the use of a private room to do something other than work in and use for bodily functions at work isn’t established as a right, and a court isn’t really going to care if access is unequal, any more than they care if vacation days are handed out unequally to employees, because there’s no right to those either.

        2. A bit anon*

          I think this is going to present some scheduling issues – I find it hard to plan recurring calendar notices for my migraines.

          Further, I am happy to stand up and protest if anyone tries to discriminate against males who need privacy to pump breast milk for their newborns.

    3. ya*

      I am not a lawyer, but I would guess that it is perfectly legal for them to ban non-lactating mothers from the lactation rooms. The law requires that certain employers provide a place for nursing mothers to pump. It doesn’t require anything else, like that the room be made available to new dads or people with migraines, so I don’t think there is any complaint to be made about legality.

      On the question of discrimination, only legally protected classes can be discriminated against (in a legal sense). Some of the examples you used might be protected classes (ie, medical disability) but even then, I think the employer would only be obligated to accommodate the disability, which they could do in other ways besides for allowing access to the lactation room. In general though, “non a lactating mother” is not a protected class, so there really is no basis to call this discrimination.

      You say the rooms sit empty a lot, but I don’t think their usage should be widely expanded unless you can guarantee that lactating moms, the people who actually have a legal right to them, will have unfettered access.

      I could also argue that my boss’s office sits empty a lot because she is often out on business, but that doesn’t mean I have a valid argument to move into her office!

  86. Career Changer*

    Hello all!
    I’m currently in social media/digital marketing and looking into going back to school for a post-bacc pre-med program so I can then go onto med school. I’m particularly interested in OBGYN. I’m not sure how many nurses, doctors, etc. read AAM, but I would love and appreciate any advice and insights you may have about post-bacc pre med programs, med school, OBGYN practices, and the health care field in general.

    1. vvondervvoman*

      I’m not a medical professional, but I did a year of Americorps in a Healthcorps program, and nearly 75% of my cohort were in the process of applying to med schools. A few had done a post-bacc program, and the general gist I got is that you need a prestigious one to be considered a competitive candidate.

      I’m not going to lecture you on making sure you want to be a dr., because I’m sure you know yourself better. But at least 3-4 folks in my cohort were planning on applying for med school and changed their minds during Healthcorps. It’s a one year contract position, and it allows you to work in a community healthcare setting, meet and talk to lots of medical professionals, get plenty of advice, and you’re able to start taking classes while you’re working. It’s full time for a living stipend, but you get $5k for school on top of it. It’s a great way to confirm that this is your path and a much cheaper way of finding out that it’s not your path.

    2. Stephanie*

      There are a few postbacc programs that tie in med school matriculation, assuming you do well.

    3. the_scientist*

      So I’m not in med school, and we don’t have post-bacc pre-med programs in Ontario but I have some indirect experience with them. The “best” programs boast a ~95% acceptance rate to medical schools, but they fudge those numbers considerably. If your grades aren’t high enough, while they can’t “block” you from applying to medical school, they will STRONGLY discourage you from applying and may even decline to support you in the ways that stronger students are getting support. So just beware that even doing a post-bacc isn’t a direct route to medical school and you could end up dropping 60K or so for nothing.

      Secondly, what are your undergraduate grades like? A friend of my boyfriend’s got accepted to the program at UVA, I think (he’s originally from there) but they invited him for an interview. When he went to the interview they again, STRONGLY ENCOURAGED him not to do it. He was a math major in undergrad, and although he’s incredibly smart and has an advanced degree in applied math, appl math is just not one of those programs where you get straight As, you know? Unless your undergraduate GPA is impeccable, even good postbacc grades won’t be enough.

      Thirdly, realize that going through with medical school requires: 1). uprooting your life and moving for a postbacc (maybe), 2). uprooting your life and moving for medical school (definitely), 3). uprooting and moving again after 4 years for residency and 4). uprooting and moving again, maybe, to find a job. And residency and med school don’t exactly leave a lot of time for socializing or dating- sure, you do things with your classmates, but the reality is that your life is med school for the foreseeable future. If you’re single and interested in having a long-term relationship, you may meet someone in med school, but then have to decide whether to couples match or break up prior to residency, and that can require starting all over. I have a lot of friends who are doctors (just have high-achieving friends, apparently), and most of them say that they probably wouldn’t do it again if they had the chance. As much as they love it, it becomes your entire life and entire identity.

      As an extension of that- could there be another career that is equally rewarding to you, but significantly less onerous? What about nursing? Midwifery? OT/PT? Respiratory therapy? Paramedic? Physician’s assistant? There are many ways to work in health care and have a real impact on patient’s lives without becoming a doctor, and I think people sometimes lose sight of that.

      Sorry for TL;DR, I hope this is helpful!

      1. vvondervvoman*

        The scientist said everything I didn’t have the energy to type out this morning. And to expand on suggestions like midwifery. There are so many mid-level options if you’re interested in OB/GYN. There is a huge need for mid-level folks and the job prospects are much better. Schooling is shorter and not as much prep classwork is needed. Check out Certified Nurse Midwives, Physician Assistants, Nurse Practitioners. All of those can be specialised towards women’s health and you’ll get to do women’s health in your job, where you’ll have your own patient load as well. Of course they don’t pay as well, but you’ll also have less debt to pay off.

        If you still want to go the MD route, check out the med student forums. They get a little nuts because med school applicants are *hard* *core* but it does provide lots of information on the process/ways to qualify.

  87. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    I got a major haircut this week: took off around 10 inches, colored my hair for the first time in a decade, etc. It looks fine, and I’m not one to care too much about imperfect hair cuts because, well, they grow out.

    But this one is disappointing. I went a new-to-me salon (I know, big mistake; I’m between stylists and didn’t want to wait until I had six months of experience with someone to do this cut). They had great reviews on Yelp, and the colorist won “Colorist of the Year” (or something like that) from Allure Magazine.

    The cut and color are both good. They just aren’t what I asked for, in ways that aren’t really arguable. I asked for an asymmetric chunky cut, and ended up with a sleek chin-length bob. I asked for ombre hair and got stripey highlights.

    What should I do? I’m sure if I complained they would do… something? to fix it (not sure what’s actually possible – the hair is shorter than I wanted so I think I just need to wait it out; maybe they can adjust the color, but I know that color correction is dangerous). I’m obviously not going back for my next cut and color, so I’m somewhat inclined to just suck it up, wait for it to grow out a bit, and then pay someone else to fix it.

    Ugh. Thoughts?

    1. Jen RO*

      I’d suck it up and wait. But I’m just about the most non-confrontational person, and the very idea of calling them to complain makes me cringe… so I’m probably not the best person to give advice!

    2. Mason*

      Whenever you complain you should have a goal in mind as the outcome – so “I don’t like your service, do something” isn’t going to get you much. “I don’t like your service and I’d like you to give me a $5 discount on it” will get you $5.

      Next time you’re dealing with a new stylist, take a picture from the internet or magazine of exactly what you want so they don’t have to interpret what you’re saying.

          1. fposte*

            I’d bother. If I were running the place, I’d want to know. You’re probably not the only person this has happened to (especially if this stylist is claiming to be able to do ombre and only knows how to do highlights). I love Former’s language below.

            And if they’re dismissive, then you know heading elsewhere is the right thing to do.

        2. Hooptie*

          That’s a big difference – I would definitely call the stylist and ask for a re-do.

          I’ve done this before. It was a week after the cut, not what I really wanted, but I thought if I gave it time I could get used to it. Didn’t happen. I called the stylist, she got me in right away and in 15 minutes had it the way I wanted it.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          If it were me, I would have to ask if the style is even doable for my hair.
          I have baby fine hair that has a mind of its own. When I bring in a picture I have to ask- “is this going to work out for me?” Half the time the answer is “no and here’s why…”

          The part about the color though –that is a whole different story.

    3. Former Stylist/Front Desk Girl*

      Hi Victoria! I’m sorry to hear your hair didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to. It is completely acceptable to call the salon and ask to speak with the manager or owner and pleasantly explain to them what you said here, “Hi, I had my cut and hair colored here on X with Y. I was referred to your salon by the great Yelp reviews you have and loved my experience. I hate to do this as my cut/color are great, but it isn’t what I asked for. I asked for A cut, I received B cut. I asked for C color, but I received D. Is there a way we can fix this?” Most salons offer correctional services free of charge (or, at least, they should) within a certain time frame. If you had images on your phone or pictures you brought with you to show the stylist, I’d mention that as well as it builds your case.

      Hair styling is an odd profession in the sense that you’re providing a service for someone, but then we can take it so personally when someone doesn’t like the work. However, I just want to reiterate that it’s okay to speak up if you’re not happy with the end result, especially as it’s drastically different from what you requested. When it comes down to it, your hair is currently an advertisement for their salon. I think they’d rather have something on your head that you liked and would speak enthusiastically about rather than an, “Ugh, yeah, thanks but it’s SO not what I wanted…”

      Re: color correction- Taking out highlights isn’t terribly difficult if you’re fine with going darker. If you wanted something lighter all together, there are ways to work around the already processed hair. Also, your current highlights might make it easier to achieve the ombre effect.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Thank you – I love the script!

        One thing that makes it a wee bit harder: The colorist IS the owner. Sigh.

        Obviously I should have said something in the chair. I’m just a weenie. :)

        1. Hooptie*

          Nope you’re not a weenie – I wish I wouldn’t have commented above now. :) I would say, “I thought I would get used to it but it just isn’t happening; what can we do to fix it?”

    4. vvondervvoman*

      Ideally, you would have said something in the chair. But you definitely should speak up and use the ABCD language below from Former Stylist. I would ask for a fix rather than money.

    5. Chrissi*

      I had this happen once and I went to another salon and paid to get it fixed. But when I called that salon and explained what happened, the stylist told me that if it was her client she would REALLY have wanted them to call her and let her know and allow her to try and fix it. She was very emphatic. I think you just need to go into it no assuming that she’s going to get offended. She probably just wants to make it right and make you happy so that you may come back in the future.

  88. Anonicorn*

    I keep seeing articles about how sitting at work all day is “killing” you. Basically, despite any extracurricular exercise, sedentary work environments are reportedly linked to some serious health problems, such as heart disease and stroke. However, most of the articles refer to a single study conducted with only male participants*.

    I don’t dispute that sedentary lifestyles can be unhealthy, but at the same time I wonder how much I should be concerned. What do you guys think? Is anyone here trying to be more active during the workday? And do you feel it’s beneficial?

    *http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2010/05000/Sedentary_Behaviors_Increase_Risk_of.6.aspx

    1. Sascha*

      I try to just get up and move around for a few minutes after sitting for a while, usually an hour or two. I think that helps. I’m fortunate to have a work situation where I can do that. I also try to take walks during my lunch break or do other types of exercise. Just the simple act of getting up and stretching my legs and back helps. I think it’s beneficial, both for my body and my mind – it helps me clear my head to walk around for a bit.

      I attended a week long training last week and had to sit still for 8 hours each day. We had breaks but I sat for long stretches of time, and my body hated me for it lol. My legs and back hurt quite a bit at the end of each day.

      I don’t know if you should be concerned as most new stories make it sound, but just from my own experience, I feel a lot better by having the freedom to move around when I need to.

        1. Sascha*

          It was more like 4 hour stretches of sitting still, since we got a lunch break, but still. And listening to someone talk the entire time. I caffeinated myself so badly that week lol.

    2. Lindsay*

      I use a Fitbit! Look it up, it’s great. It’s a fancy pedometer that syncs with your phone and you can compete with friends for most steps.

      I have a desk job, so I walk at breaks and at lunch to get in my 10k steps a day. Makes me feel so much better and I know I’m at least hitting a minimum physical baseline. I think that having a desk job is still bad for you since humans aren’t designed to sit eight plus hours a day, though, but I do what I can!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, I hate these. They sound so extreme–basically, if you sit at work, no amount of exercise you do any other time will do any good. That just doesn’t sound right to me.

      I try to get up at least once an hour so I don’t stiffen up. It’s easy if I drink a lot of water, because then I HAVE to get up. People here do stair walking. I could do that, since I’m on the third floor, but I hate climbing stairs (crappy knees), so it’s a matter of motivation. But I just read an article about how helpful that is (and it’s aerobic and I need to punch up my exercise) so I probably will start doing it. :P

    4. Nina*

      I have tendonitis in my shoulder from years of sitting at a desk and poor posture. It’s difficult to keep your back aligned properly when you’re like a zombie staring at a computer screen. :(

      I would use bathroom breaks as an excuse to get up and stretch my legs, until my boss told me that they were getting concerned about my bladder/digestive issues. So I stopped doing that. Otherwise, I would take the stairs often and walk around my very tiny office.

    1. vvondervvoman*

      I think it’s a question of knowing the company’s culture. The head of her company called her brilliant. That sort of makes sense, since they’re in the business of creating videos they hope will go viral. Her quitting via viral video only solidified her talent and directed attention to her former company.

      I do think it matters that she didn’t actually disparage her company. She gave up her life and was miserable, but only because that was the job (in Taiwan, which she hated), not due to malice on the company’s part.

    2. Chriama*

      I find that seriously unprofessional, but she didn’t use the company’s name or her boss’s name, so that’s her saving grace. I honestly didn’t find the video that great, which is ironic since she’s talking about how she cares about the quality of content, and I think if it was better I might have been more amused.

      However: I know some creative industries are seriously kooky, so it really is about knowing your environment. There are employers out there who would love this, and she did keep her everyone’s name out of it except her own, so there was no bashing going on.

  90. Sascha*

    Exercise question.

    So I really want to be stronger and more healthy overall. My question today is bodyweight exercises. Do any of y’all have bodyweight type exercises you do that you really like and are effective? I’m specifically looking for things to help strengthen the muscles around my knees, and my core, as those are both very weak areas.

    I’d like things where I can use my bodyweight or the 10 lb hand weight set. Gym membership or other paid services are not an option right now.

    Thanks everyone!

    1. fposte*

      I’m all about the living room and not the gym myself.

      I quite like vinyasa yoga, which is a bodyweight exercise (you can easily find video for workouts if you want guidance). However, since you didn’t mention yoga that may not be your thing, and I grab a lot of bodyweight/dumbbell exercises from exrx.net–you might start at the directory here: http://www.exrx.net/Exercise.html

      1. Sascha*

        Awesome! Thank you! I do enjoy yoga. I will check these things out. I’m trying to start small – my goal is 10 minutes a day. I’m not very active and I hate exercising, so it’s baby steps. :)

      2. Sascha*

        I’m almost overwhelmed by the choices on EXRX, but this is awesome! I didn’t realize there were so many variations for working different muscle groups.

        I’m also happy to know I don’t necessarily have to do push ups to work my chest. Damn the push ups! I hate them so much lol.

        1. fposte*

          They do have the guidelines for creating a workout, so you could start with that.

          I like the choices–I enjoy being able to reject so many options :-).

    3. NOLA*

      Squats
      Lunges
      Body builders (also called squat thrusts)
      Boxer jumps (feet together, squat down and touch the ground, jump/spring up into the air in an x shape like a jumping jack)
      Push-ups

      I also like to do high intensity intervals of basic moves like jumping jacks, kicks/punches, or any other calesthenic exercise. Do it as hard as you can for 45 seconds. Catch your breath for 15 seconds. Repeat 10 times (switching up excersies). Viola! You’ve done your cardio for the day.

      Nerd Fitness is a great website for ideas

    4. Colette*

      My Monday class at the gym recently did a 300 workout.

      25 knees to chest (kind of like a sit up, but pulling your knees in as you crunch)
      25 burpees (substitute 50 jumping jacks or 100 skips if, like me, you’d happily never do another burpee)
      50 supine rows (This would be hard at home, you could probably do other rows instead)
      50 squats
      50 push ups
      50 ball curls
      25 burpees
      25 knees to chest

      I wouldn’t recommend doing this for long, though – I did it three times, a week apart, and by the end it was taking me 18 minutes, which was about 60% of how long the first time took.

    5. Stephanie*

      For knees:
      Lunges
      Biking really helped strengthen my quads (if you have a bike)

      Core:
      Pushups
      Planks
      Burpees (the worst)

      1. Sascha*

        Thanks! Seems like burpees were invented by the Devil himself. I might skip them. :) I would love to bike around the neighborhood, I need to get my hands on one.

        1. Stephanie*

          Craigslist! Seriously, there are some cheap bikes on there. (There are also $5,000 road bikes as well.)

          My martial arts dojo borrowed something even worse from the CrossFIT folks: thurpees. It’s a burpee with hand weights where you do a pushup with the weights and then do a shoulder press instead of a jump.

    6. Tinker*

      I didn’t do it for long because I got kind of enticed into weights, but I rather liked “Convict Conditioning”. The gimmick — basically, learn the hardcore secrets of the prison strength masters — is a little weh, but they have a nice difficulty progression of bodyweight exercises for all the various parts, that basically go from absurdly easy to sufficiently difficult that some of them may be only hypothetical for any given person (I’m not holding my breath on one-handed handstand pushups, for instance). A friend of mine actually did it for awhile, and speaks well of it.

      There’s also “You Are Your Own Gym”, which is a bit less of a program and a bit more of a menu of various bodyweight exercises.

    8. judy*

      Check out You Are Your Own Gym!! It’s an awesome book/app all about bodyweight exercises.

  91. vvondervvoman*

    I had asked a few open threads ago, but I’m going to take another go at it. Great discussion, but I’m looking for specific websites, articles etc.

    I’m looking for resources on how to find job listings/prepare application materials for jobs in the EU. I have a strong preference for the country, but will go for UK, Ireland, Malta, or France, probably in that order.

    As a heads up, I’m not concerned with the taxes or other costs of living abroad.

    If it helps, I’m in public health/health education, and I’m looking to move in the next couple of years toward global health.

    1. Graciosa*

      I can’t be as specific as you wish here; all I can offer is advice to search for examples of CV’s rather than resumes and do it by specific country. I can always tell when I’ve hit a cultural issue in applications – those for my positions in certain countries will all come in with photographs (my U.S. brain blinks) and much longer resumes / CV’s than would be normal in the U.S. I’ve seen a minimum standard of 3-5 pages even for junior positions, and the inclusion of a lot of information (marital status, children, age, hobbies) that would never appear even on a poorly written U.S. resume.

      You need to make sure that your application is above average for the standards of that position – but I can’t recommend any particular blogs or sites based on anything more than a general search. You might try focusing on international organizations that have placements in a wide range of countries, as they will be more likely to take cultural variation in applications into account while still offering expat placements.

      Good luck.

  92. Kevin*

    I was just at a conference and I have to share the awful situation one person described in their office. A new director came in and in the 12 person department they fired 10 people. The new director wanted a clean slate to work with. This included an administrative assistant who had only been there four days. I told the person I met to get out, it doesn’t matter if they survived the massacre this time.

    1. Yup*

      Yikes, how bizarre. And self-defeating. Who’s going to do the work of the fired people until they hire all the replacements? Who’s going to show the new hires how to do the work, since practically everyone is new?

      1. Kevin*

        To me it’s like the more I think about it the more problems I can think of. It’s basically the best example of how to do everything wrong.

    2. Chriama*

      This person plays serious hardball and they are a jerk. They think the best way to get results is to throw their weight around and demand obedience. Upper management is also out to lunch. The cost of severance and hiring new people + onboarding has to be ridiculous.

      The only caveat to this would be if those people were found to be involved in some seriously shady dealings that you didn’t know about. It sucks to be told nothing, but sometimes that’s just how it has to be.

    3. Beth Anne*

      My mom works for a church and this is her BIGGEST FEAR. There are pastors that will get transferred into the parish and fire the whole staff and bring in “people he knows” to do the job. I really think this is an awful way to operate.

      On the same note it’s like getting a new boss I know people that haven’t had this issue and didn’t get along with the new pastor so they ended up leaving anyway…but at least that was their choice.

      2. Chriama*

        I don’t see how this is healthy for the church. Churches depend on informal relations and volunteers way more than a typical corporation, so I don’t see how getting rid of all the people who’ve formed relationships with your community will help you form better ones. I know people who have left churches when the priest is changed, but I just look for a church where I like the people and the management is mostly sane.

  93. Ollie*

    Question: I was recently hired by a staffing agency to fill a temp. to hire position for another company. How do I write who I work for on my resume/who do I say I work for when friends/family ask? I’m unsure what to do because I’m doing work for the company, but I’m under the impression that I technically work for the staffing agency since they pay me. (If I just put the staffing agency on my resume, then it would look like I was doing staffing agency work, but the work I’m doing nothing related to that.)

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think friends or family matter hugely, but I’d always say “I’m a temp, and I’m currently working at Teapotmania.”

      I believe Alison’s addressed the resume question, so you might want to check the archives (should be a piece of cake for a budding archivist :-)). But I’d say the important thing is that you put both the temp and the de facto org. “Teapotmania (contracted via Too Many Temps)” for a single long-term gig, or for several shorter it might go the other way: “Too Many Temps (contracted to Teapotmania, Teapotsthefailedstartup, and Holy Teapots).” But check the archives for specific formatting clues.

  94. Ollie*

    Behind the scenes question for Alison: Somewhat recently, you contacted a letter writer from three years ago to ask for an update. I was surprised you still had the e-mail address, and I’m wondering how you organize/preserve all your blog related records. Do you save every single e-mail forever? Do you keep your posts on word documents and make a note of the letter writer’s e-mail address there? (I was studying to become an archivist, so that’s why this sort of thing interests me. :P)

      1. Ollie*

        Seven years?! I didn’t realize the blog had been around that long. Even though I’m sure the number of letters you got when you started wasn’t nearly as many as you get now, it must still be a pretty staggering amount of letters in total.

        Thanks for satisfying my curiosity! :]

  95. Z*

    For any Economics PhDs out there, do you have any insight into what you need to know before applying to programs? Or alternatively, why you decided to pursue a PhD, what the programs are like and if they helped you in your field.

    I have been thinking lately about applying for a PhD program but am still kind of on the fence. Currently I am doing economic research and think it would help me get ahead in the field, but a PhD is such a big time commitment, and I don’t know if I would be able to do it while working full time. Any advice would be appreciated!

  96. Hopeless*

    I just want to take a moment to vent and maybe get some perspective that I hadn’t considered. I graduated with a liberal arts degree a couple of years ago – I know, already off to a great start. I tried the engineering/hard sciences track, but it just wasn’t for me. Anyway it’s all done now, so short of applying to some random graduate program, there’s nothing I can do about it. I figured my best option was to try to get an entry-level position at whichever organization that would take me, learn the ropes, show some initiative, and let good-old-fashioned work ethic do the trick. I managed to get a foot through the door at a local government agency. The past couple of years, I have worked my behind off doing things beyond what is expected. My performance reviews have been excellent. I’ve earned a lot of praise from almost everyone around me. That’s well in all, but when and how will I advance? Our department head has made it clear that he isn’t interested in promoting me or giving me a raise. Knowing this, I started job hunting to find a company that is interest in employee development. I thought with the skill set I managed to build here, I wouldn’t have too much difficulty finding another job. I thought wrong. At this point, I have no clue what hiring managers are looking for. I followed AAM’s resume and cover letter advice, with no success. I’m starting to think I’m just a big fish in a small pond; I have nothing of value to offer outside of this organization. I’m not going anywhere. I guess grad school it is.

    1. Hopeless*

      BTW, when I say that the department head isn’t interested in promoting me, I mean definitely not in the next five years, probably not in the next ten.

    2. E.R*

      Aw, hey, dont get so down. What if you frame your search as, “What do I really want to do with my career?” and then think about the specific skills and experience you need to get to the top of that? It helps to think about what you really want, and then focus your energies on getting there, rather than thinking about what hiring managers want in general. I’ve struggled like you in the past as well. and focusing in this way is really helpful. Good luck!

      1. Chriama*

        I agree that grad school is a terrible idea unless you have a specific career in mind and have done your research.

        Have you tried having a candid conversation with your director? Are they uninterested in promoting you because they don’t care about your career growth or because you’re so good at your job that they can’t “afford to lose you”? Is there a specific role or department that you’re interested in? Can you take on some self-directed projects? Outside of work, can you take a course online or at a local college?

        If you really want to leave your current employer I think you need to do more research. You say you don’t know what hiring managers are looking for. Have you asked? Reach out to your connections, your friends’ connections, your coworkers’ connections, etc. Build your network now. It’s slow, but it’s a good long term investment.

        1. Hopeless*

          I think it’s a combination of them not being interested in my growth as well as them being able to get me to perform duties way beyond my regular job functions at a fraction of the price. Which is the predominant culture around here: milk employees dry without giving them anything in return (but a measly, static paycheck).
          I have been trying to move forward with building my career for a while, brushing up on AAM posts, reading through different employer websites, research different roles I am highly interested in, going through the whole nine yards. And despite feeling like I’ve crossed my t’s and dotted all my i’s, I know I must be missing something. It must be that I haven’t been able to network, which is another reason to consider grad school I think.

    3. The IT Manager*

      That sounds like a bad plan. You must have learned some transferable job/office skills in your time at local government agency. You need to turn that into a new job. Grad school will not give you anymore experience than you have now. Many people come out of grad school and have trouble finding jobs.

      I see two options. 1) Keep job hunting for anything that matches your current skill set 2) Figure out what you want to do and get skills and education needed for that new career.

      Grad school for the sake of something to do is a bad idea.

      1. Hopeless*

        Thank you all for your responses. I am a little puzzled by one thing, though. The general consensus seems to be that grad school is not a good idea now, but you all seem to agree that I should pursue extra training/education to build more skills. Since graduate programs tend to be highly specialized, why wouldn’t I be able to build more skills that way? Also, I think that most employers put a lot more emphasis on education that you’re implying. My liberal arts degree is just not strong enough, even with the long list of software and language skills I have to add to it. I think I’m losing out against candidates who have a professional degree alongside candidates with tons of experience.

        1. fposte*

          I work and teach in a graduate program, so I’m not against graduate degrees by any means. But it sounds like you may not really know whether people thriving in your industry have master’s degrees or not, and it’s not clear if you even have a specific degree in mind–MBA? JD?

          In general, people don’t go to graduate school just for skills. Even with a professional degree, you can pick up the skills more cheaply elsewhere. They’re skills, AND contexts, theory, contacts, informed experience, signs of commitment, credentials, etc., etc. If you’re in a field that you really know you want to grow in and that requires an MBA, that’s one thing, and it might be worth thinking about in that case. But it sounds more right now like you’re feeling stuck and you think some kind of a degree would be a way out, even if you’re not sure where “out” will take you. Grad school is a hell of a lot of time and money to spend if that’s the case, and a lot of competitive programs won’t take you unless you have more focus than that anyway.

          So I’m all for changing it up, but I’d encourage you to check things out more before taking any plunge. Talk to people who *are* doing what you might want to do, talk to whatever programs are you’re looking at (and if you don’t have specific programs, start looking at them). You really don’t want to feel the same way three years later and $50k poorer.

          1. bev*

            +100.

            That’s exactly what I was thinking except that grad school might be more than $50k. It could be between $50k – $100k.

            You might consider going through a temp agency to try different kinds of jobs. In any case, I agree with the previous commenters that you need to figure out what kind of career you want first.

        2. The IT Manager*

          Grad school provides education but not necessarily job skills and not experience You already mentioned that hard science/engineering is not for you, but those tend to be the areas that provide skills in addition to the education in college.

  97. Juliette*

    I just started a new position at a small nonprofit. Among what appear to be some red flags, it looks like my predecessor was only in the position for 8 months, her predecessor only 2 months!, and so on. Also it appears none of my references were called. Should I be worried?

    1. Izzy LeighGal*

      Don’t worry… yet. From what I’ve seen, non-profits are notorious for high turnover. How long ago (days, weeks, etc) did you start? I wonder if some of this is new-job jitters.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Sure, some nonprofits have high turnover. But that’s because there’s something that’s not working right, not because it’s inherently true (and therefore nothing to worry about) in the sector.

        There are a lot of reasons for turnover to be high: bad management, terrible hours, bad working environment, etc. But I think it’s often bad hiring: choosing the wrong person for the role, either because the person doing the hiring doesn’t understand what they need or isn’t willing or able to describe that to the people they are considering.

        This is especially true, I think, for entry-level jobs that have a lot of crappy elements. It’s hard to say to someone: “Yeah, you really are mostly going to be entering the data from surveys our program participants are doing. There might be some opportunity for analysis, but you should be prepared to spend most of the time focused on making sure you get the details right.” Much easier to say “You’ll be in charge of transferring the data from paper evaluation forms to excel. But you’ll also be doing the analysis, and we’ll really depend on your in-depth knowledge of program participants’ experiences to shape what we do with these programs going forward.”

  98. Anon for Now*

    Does any one have real-world experience or examples of why a bad manager is kept in a managerial position, when upper management knows it’s an issue?

    Case in point – my manager can’t barely do her own job, let alone manage her subordinates. She is emotionally fragile, easily offended and stresses quickly. Her subordinates are always on edge. Upper management knows this.

    In addition, upper management knows that other departments find this manager so incompetent and un-personable, that they deliberately avoid working with her.

    I’ve been wracking my brain… and come up with:

    * It’s a way to drive out subordinates without having to fire them.
    * The coaching/prof development of the bad manager is priority number 1, even if it causes bad morale and a toxic environment in the process.
    * Politics, nepotism or the bad manager has dirty laundry on someone.

    Thanks all for your thoughts!

    1. Yup*

      A simple answer is that upper management knows there’s an issue but doesn’t consider it a firing issue. Two examples from my own experience:

      John was a disaster at 85% of his job, but the boss loved the 15% he got right. Loved it so much that the 85% didn’t matter.

      Mary was so incompetent couldn’t find her own way out of a paper bag but she dealt with all the sales stuff that the boss didn’t want to do. Replacing Mary would mean that the boss would have to do something he didn’t want to until Mary’s replacement was hired, and maybe even beyond.

      Other examples include Mike the dimwit who kept his job because the board really liked him personally, Sue who was a rageaholic nightmare but did a bang up job on extremely complex big-dollar project, and Chris who was abrasive and unlikeable but apparently brought in lots of excellent clients.

    2. Sascha*

      My manager, and other poor performers in my department, are kept around for these reasons:

      1. The VP of the department hates conflict and won’t deal with bad performers.
      2. We work at a state institution and it’s ridiculously difficult to terminate anyone.
      3. Whenever my manager is put on PIP, he shapes up just enough to get taken off, then lapses again, and the process has to start all over. The process can be repeated an infinite number of times as HR does not put an end to it unless the person on the PIP does something egregious, like punch someone or embezzle funds.
      4. The VP is friends with some of the poor performers and values the friendships over getting results so she won’t fire or discipline them – instead she gives them raises and promotions when they whine to her about their personal problems.
      5. The director, just under the VP, has his hands tied by the VP. Even though he is the direct supervisor of the poor performers, he is unable to do anything about them because of the VP.

      So in my case, it’s mostly red tape and trickle down bad management.

    3. Windchime*

      I wish I knew the answer. I think at my job, it’s your second bullet point. There is a manager here, “Ted”, whose sole job seems to be walking around and visiting with people. He does have an office, and when he’s in there, he is usually doing is side job of day-trading on his tablet (using the company’s guest wireless).

      He has been a manager for several years, so my guess is that they have invested time and money in him and don’t want to have that all go to waste. He manages to fly just under the radar; he does just enough to avoid getting too much negative attention but honestly, he is a laughing stock to most of us. He isn’t our manager so we don’t spend too much time worrying about it, but it is perplexing how he manages to keep his job.

  100. littlemoose*

    So I have a friend who would like to work but whose options are currently very limited. Her husband works full-time and takes evening classes as well, and she is the primary caregiver for their three small children. So, she is hoping to find some type of part-time work at home position. She has a degree in English. I realize that this is a tall order, and that many such offers are scams. Any suggestions for legitimate starting points? (I feel like this may have been addressed in a prior open thread, but I searched the archives and came up empty.)

    1. Jamie*

      When my eldest was small I did child care for Jazzercize classes.

      It was a couple of hours 3 days a week – but I started at $18 an hour in 1990 so it was some supplementary money. And I brought him with me so it was like a play group for him.

      Doubt it would work with 3 kids, but throwing it out there for others – it was a cool option at the time.

    2. Frieda*

      Look into copyediting/proofreading classes. Most book publishers freelance that work, and if she is an English major and has editing experience she’ll have a better starting point. An in-demand copyeditor or proofreader needs more skills than just being able to spot typos, which is why I recommend taking a class specifically in copyediting, and it can be hard to break in w/o connections to publishing. That being said, LinkedIn can help you find people who hire freelance copyeditors and proofreaders, and any worthwhile class should be able to offer networking opportunities (ask this if they don’t advertise it). If you’re good and always meet deadlines (and can take rushes) you can make $30-$40/hour working any place or time you’d like (as long as you have a computer).

  101. Jamie*

    I am making an edict that from this point forward the following are no longer to be considered IT responsibilities:

    1. Phones. Managing plans/swapping out desk phones/etc. Phone network issues are ours – pbx, etc. Nothing else.

    2. Copiers/printers. I’ll network the big ones but I will never know how to print double sided and collate so stop asking me.

    3. Label makers. Just because something has a chip in it doesn’t make it our problem.

    4. Why some people don’t reply to your email. Email service is working just fine, we can’ t make people like you enough to respond.

    5. Social networking for the business. Just because it involves typing doesn’t make it an IT function and unless you want me blogging about all the stuff that annoys me (you don’t) content isn’t my wheelhouse.

    It’s been a very long week…

    1. AVP*

      I have always wanted to work somewhere that had a Technical Coordinator or something like that. Not IT, but someone who really knew how to work the printers and phone systems and all of the other stuff that IT has rightfully disowned but no one else seems to understand!

      1. Jamie*

        If I had someone here willing to take that on (as it wouldn’t be a full time job) and they did it well I’d consider getting them more money to compensate for that my hill to die on.

        It would be my pet project until their raise went through.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        That was my job when I was a receptionist. I was expected to know everything. And change the toner, which only happened on days when I wore khaki pants. >_<

      3. Mints*

        I could do that job! Not at my current place, these people annoy me too much, but I’d do at Jamie’s. Let me just move across the county real quick!
        I’m actually not even that experienced, I’m just good at googling. Plus I’m patient enough to teach people from scratch
        I kind of want this job now

        1. Jamie*

          I’m just good at googling.

          And with that you’re more advanced than 90% of end users.

          Careful what you wish for, I took on this role as an office manager back when the Dowager Countess was a young girl…for many of us it’s a slippery slope headfirst into IT.

    4. Izzy LeighGal*

      1000 x YES on social networking. I laughed out loud at the “Just because it involves typing doesn’t make it an IT function” comment.

      But as someone in marketing, just because it involves Facebook and Twitter doesn’t mean anyone could do it. Leave it to the marketers and PR people.

      Although I think an IT blog on all the ridiculous things you see, hear and do would be fabulous.

      1. Jamie*

        Thank you! People underestimate the work involved in doing this. I have been fighting to outsource the SN stuff to a professional for years. We’re not big enough to need someone full time and no marketing department, so contracting this out would make me so happy.

        Unfortunately that’s not a fight I’ve won yet.

        1. Izzy LeighGal*

          UGH, sorry that’s not a fight won yet. and totally agree how it’s underestimated….

          No, you posting pictures of your dog and pizza on Instagram doesn’t mean you can run SN for a whole company.

          Something that I’ve found helpful is Feedly. It’s a news aggregation app – so you can set it up to pull news, blogs and articles from different publications, and it’s all in one place for you. If your company has a Twitter, LinkedIn or Facebook, it’s a good way to pull content to share.

          And I really like Tweetdeck for the schedule function – set a couple in the morning and then you’re set for the day, outbound messaging-wise.

    5. Anonsie*

      Man who DOES know how to work the big complicated copiers? Seems like no one ever does, it’s like a big enigma box.

      “Legends say if you press the magic buttons juuust right, it will staple your packets for you!”
      “Yeah right, grandma.”

      1. OfficePrincess*

        I stumbled on getting that to work one day trying to fix another problem. I’m looked at like I’m a witch any time I do it and it’s only further cemented my position as the person who fixes anything remotely technical in the building. I’m not IT, but I’m the office supervisor, so I’m clearly expected to know everything and I’m young, which means I’m willing to fiddle with things and can reboot the time clock, phones, and copier, clear a jam, change the toner, and, most impressively, call Cannon tech support.

      2. Fiona*

        I still don’t entirely understand how our phone system works (or how to fix it when it goes on the blink) and forget about the server, but I CAN work magic with the copy machine.

    6. LadyB*

      I also work in IT.

      I see your things with chips in, and raise you things with plugs on…..

      1. Jamie*

        I knew I forgot something – yes, plugs. And no, we won’t call the coffee machine people because Keurig has a plug and lcd screen.

    7. Jen RO*

      We don’t have an IT person on site anymore, but we’re a software company, so people who know about computers, right? Due to layoffs etc, the people in one of the offices are going to move in the empty space in the other office. What is the company doing now? Sending the IT person from *Israel* to Romania just so he can move the computers. I get that it’s a good idea in a way (let’s not distract the programmers from their srs bsns!), but wow, overkill. Nothing needs to be installed, no servers are being moved. Everyone could have taken their monitor, their CPU and their UPS and the move would’ve been done in half an hour.

      1. Jamie*

        Wow! And even if they didn’t want you doing it yourselves (?) there are no local contractors who could use the money? It would have to be more cost effective than this.

      2. Windchime*

        All my acquaintances think that because I know how to program in C# and SQL that I should also know how to set up their home network, fix their printer, and set up their social media accounts. I don’t. “But you’re so good with computers!”

  102. JM*

    Is anyone gluten free? We’re thinking my niece might be gluten sensitive so we’re eliminating gluten from the house for a month to see how it goes. It’s only been a week and I’m finding it really difficult because we have so many special events coming up. Is it rude to bring our own food? Obviously, if she was diagnosed with celiac or something more concrete, I’d have that reasoning. Most people are like, just give her the chicken from the pasta or something else that could potentially encounter cross contamination (the reason we’re eliminating it from the whole house). At this point, someone has already given her two clearly gluten products this week and at this rate I feel like it’s going to take a month for us to even get to the point of elimination before we can even see if this is the cause.

    1. AVP*

      I don’t think it’s rude at all to bring your own food.

      Also – depending on the event – you could try to let the organizers know in advance and ask if they can accommodate you. I occasionally have to manage food for events and it drives me nuts when people show up and tell me about their special diet at the last possible second. If you give me a heads up the day before, or even the morning of, I will get a special meal for you and fully commiserate about cross-contamination and food dangers. But 5 minutes before the food is served doesn’t give me a lot of options! /end rant

    2. fposte*

      I think actually it can be rude to bring your own food, depending on the circumstance, so I’d tread carefully there. How old is your niece? Is she old enough to reliably say no to food offers? (And if she isn’t, how’d she get a busier social calendar than me?) Eating beforehand can be a solution sometimes too if she’s old enough.

      If you’re genuinely thinking she might have celiac, by the way, they don’t *want* you to go gluten free before the test–it’s the annoyed reaction to gluten that gives them the diagnosis.

      1. JM*

        She’s 2.5 so there’s no way she’s turning down a cookie. These are family events like a 1st birthday, going away party, etc.

        The doctor doesn’t think she has celiac but said she might be gluten intolerant because she has some symptoms. Our biggest issue is bloating, stomach pains, constipation, etc so the doctor suggested a gluten elimination for a month.

        1. fposte*

          Ha, yes, a two-year-old is definitely not able to look out for herself. However, a two-year-old is also generally easier to exempt from the “don’t bring your own food” prohibition, and I bet lots of those occasions are kid affairs where you can easily say to the parent in charge that Pookie’s got a medical thing so you’ll be bringing your own cupcake for her. And even at multi-age events toddler parents will often have the private cheerios stash–you can just have a private something else stash.

          1. AVP*

            haha, and I was thinking more in terms of big corporate events where no one would really notice whether you were eating from the buffet or not. I hope Pookie doesn’t have to go to too many of those :)

        2. Anonymous*

          As someone who had those symptoms, I definitely sympathize with your daughter! (In my case, it was lactose. I drank lots of milk…)

    3. Anonymous*

      One of my friends is Celiac and was diagnosed in 2000. Things have come a long way since then. There are so many more food options out there and there is so much more awareness now. Especially with the topic of food allergies in general. It will be overwhelming at first, but it will get easier. I promise. A few Gluten free brands that I like are: Glutino, Kinnikinnick, and Udi’s. LaraBars, BumbleBars, Tinkinyada (rice pasta that is pretty similar in terms of taste and texture to a gluten-containing pasta.) Hail Merry (They make tarts. The lemon is absolutely delicious. They make lime, coconut and chocolate ones too) If you go to Whole Foods, some locations have a Gluten Free aisle.

  103. KatyKay*

    Any advice for a PA (Personal Assistant aka Executive Admin) wanting to move up from a secretarial role? I have a Liberal Arts Degree Summa and have been with my current company for 9 years. I am fairly certain that I will have to leave my current employer as the company has no career path for admins and only two admins have moved from a non-exempt role. Both moved to a technical role – database/excel/ppt. Those roles come up only every few years. I am quite good at what I do but I am really done doing the calendars, fetching lunch and coffee, and making travel arrangements. I’ve had multiple conversations with my managers and with others and ask for projects so that I can show my abilities. They promise to look into it but never follow up even after I contact them a 2nd and 3rd time. Would getting a PMP and learning Project Management and SharePoint help?

    1. Chriama*

      I would look at building experience another way before paying for a certification. A PMP with no experience isn’t likely to make you a strong job candidate.

      I think you should decide on what career path you’re interested in and then do some research. Network like it’s going out of style, and reach out to people for informational interviews. University degrees are useful for alumni networks, and LinkedIn has an alumni search tool that allows you to look for people in companies or roles or cities that interest you.

  104. Sunflower*

    Is anyone else feeling super burned out by work and just life in general? I just moved into a new place and am in the middle of doing that, plus job hunting plus now being worried I might have to move already because there aren’t any jobs here. I’m frustrated at work- not that I have a whole lot to do- and frustrated by my job search.

    Just venting….

    1. The IT Manager*

      Yes! I have disconnected from work over the weekdn and not worked overtime this week, but feel stressed about how much I have to do before the night before. I would take a day or two off, but I know my email inbox would just be full and I’d end up farther behind.

      Our project has an end in site, but I am not sure it is soon enough for my sanity.

    2. Anonalicious*

      Yup.

      A lot of things have just piled up and I’m really feeling the need for a change.

    3. Jamie*

      Yep. Sometimes no matter how fast I run that hamster wheel still goes no where.

      For me I can tell when it’s a phase based on work load and when I start careening wildly toward burnout.

      If you address it in the early stages you can often avoid the wild ride to the bottom where you’re driving home crying wondering why in the hell you you what you do for a living and furious you weren’t born 200 years ago where I would have just died in childbirth or in a random butter churning accident rather than having to get a job.

      I remember being seriously, legitimately, jealous of tv housewives …and don’t even get me started on Carol Brady with a live-in housekeeper. At least Shirley Partridge worked at a bank before she took up singing.

      1. Tinker*

        I know things are getting fun when I start reading things by monks, soldiers, or people in the federal prison system and thinking wistfully of the simple life.

        1. Jamie*

          Seriously. When I’m flipping channels and see people in prison cells and my only thought is they don’t get bills in their mail and envy them their freedom from responsibility and decisions I know something has gone horribly awry.

          1. Tinker*

            I think my nadir when I was looking for a job after grad school was when I ran across and devoured the blog of a guy who got one of those short-ish federal prison sentences for insider trading or something.

            “You mean you get nice green work clothes and sturdy boots, and every day you get to go out and weed whack ditches, and the guards comment on how nice it is that you’re a reliable weed whacker? And then you get to come in to your nice bunk and your bookshelf where you keep all the books that people mail you, and read books and write essays to mail out to be put on your blog… what was it you did again? Exactly?”

    4. Tinker*

      Argh, yes.

      This week has actually not been half bad objectively speaking, but in some other sort of sense I feel as if something is just grinding on my last nerve. Mostly it’s that although I’m making progress, the things I’m having to do to make progress are frustrating or play to my weak points or end up encountering unexpected obstacles. Or involve the cat eating things he shouldn’t, and us both later suffering the consequences.

      One of the things that I’ve had in the “need to be an adult and do all the things including this” bucket all this week has been to activate my new debit card, which had been sent to me as my data was in the Target breach. Kept on thinking, “oh, I’ll take that to work tomorrow and activate it at the ATM by the bus station” or “I’ll just wait until Netflix goes through” or whatever. Well, this morning I checked my account and found that I’d supposedly spent $200 at a Babies-R-Us in Pennsylvania.

      At the moment I’m kind of turning over in my mind whether that is the last straw after which I’m just going to run down the street screaming “SCREW ALL THIS CRAP” or words to that effect.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, argh. I’ve never had any problem with getting stuff like that written off, but it does take mental space and I’m with you in feeling a little short on that this winter.

        I’ve been enjoying The Billfold, which is sort of a writerly/interviewy/browsable/young-aimed (so I’m not it’s demographic) money blog, and one recurring feature is “It’s a great day to do that one thing.” Not even the whole list–just that one thing. I like that approach.

  105. Frieda*

    I’m working with the director of my department to put together some data to present to our new COO to support our request for more staff (the data that our workload has increased 177% over the last 3 years while staff has only increased 10% did not sway the outgoing COO). Does anyone have advice for how to frame the argument and/or what data is most persuasive for this kind of request? We’re all exempt salaried employees, so the more work = higher labor costs doesn’t exactly apply because everyone just works more hours for the same amount of money (and “everyone is stressed and burning out” hasn’t been persuasive thus far).

    Shorter question: how should we frame the argument that you need to spend money to make money?

    1. Chriama*

      What’s the cost of attrition? How many people have left because of burnout? How are your competitors attracting candidates or doing the same work better? How would productivity improve (including the cost of preventable errors)? What else would get accomplished if you had more people? How would employee costs decrease? How does the employer plan to stay competitive once the economy picks up? What isn’t being done now (realistically, not all the work is being done if you don’t have enough people)?

      Overall, I think you should push and then pull. Push by pointing out the downsides of not enough help (turnover, errors, performance compared with competitors, etc). Then pull by showing the attraction of new employees (i.e. everything you could accomplish by hiring new people that you aren’t current;y doing).

      1. Frieda*

        Thanks–those are all great approaches! I am certainly going to look into how I can answer them quantitatively.

        But I’m also concerned with the ” What else would get accomplished if you had more people?” because right now the answer is really “We’d get all the stuff done that you think we’ve been doing but that hasn’t been getting done.” Which I guess is where the real problem lies, which is that any compelling argument for more staff is based on the fact that, as you said, we’re not getting our jobs done now, and no one wants to have that conversation. I’ve been arguing that this is exactly the conversation that we need to be happening, and that we shouldn’t apologize for falling short of expectations when expectations are unrealistic, but haven’t found many converts yet.

    2. Jamie*

      When I have some time later I’ll google the actual data, but there are some general formulas to use to determine the cost of turnover by position.

      Entry level/unskilled positions it can be less than their salary or even negligible if you have plenty of qualified candidates and you don’t incur UI or WC costs.

      Mid-level I think it was about 1.5-2x yearly salary. This depends on how much institutional knowledge/training one needs to be up to speed.

      Upper level – it really depends on the company and role – but some will be > 12 months before even the most talented can make the role fully their own because of the complexity involved.

      You could replace me tomorrow with someone far more talented and brighter than I and it will still be a while before they hit their value apex because of the specific institutional knowledge involved.

      This isn’t what I was thinking about – but I love this article and it applies far outside of the programming sphere.

      http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Up-or-Out-Solving-the-IT-Turnover-Crisis.aspx

  106. madge*

    My husband and I own a business that has grown to four locations, with a fifth one possible this year. We have an employee who has been with us for several years (we’ve been in business for six) and we proposed a new salary structure to her. She would manage the original location (which has seen growth from 26-43% each year). Instead of being an hourly employee, she would keep the profits from that store (we manufacture plus have retail spots so we would make our money from providing her with product).

    We have had numerous conversations with her and answered every question. She has access to all financials. She’s been indecisive about whether she wants the new position because her husband thinks she should have something with guaranteed salary. We’re past the deadline that we gave her for an answer (she was given a little more than three months) and now she wants us to meet with her husband.

    My husband is ready to rescind the offer because of her indecisiveness, and because the phrasing of her request made it sound as though we should answer to her husband. I’m on the fence about how strange it is that her husband has additional questions for us and requires reassurance from us before he’ll allow her to accept the position. Is it normal to meet with an employee’s spouse? He seems nice, we just feel like enough is enough with this issue.

    1. fposte*

      Okay, I wouldn’t meet with the spouse, but never mind the spouse–I’d have a lawyer if I were her, and for that matter if I were you. What’s your plan if the profits fall below the exempt threshold for the period? Or below minimum wage, even? How does this work for your withholding?

      Granted, I’m not in retail so I don’t know what’s customary, but to me this sounds like a non-standard proposal being greeted with a non-standard response.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yea I have to agree with this. This is probably a lot over her head which is why she wants the spouse in the mix. She should get a lawyer to make sure you guys are on the same page.

        1. madge*

          This is a good point. She’s very capable and intelligent and owns a small services-oriented business. Her husband is also an independent contractor. It makes sense that this could feel overwhelming to her, though.

    2. Chriama*

      I don’t think it’s unusual that she wants you to meet with her husband if he has more of a head for business. The new relationship wouldn’t be an employee relationship so she has every right to involve a business advisor if she wants one.

      On the other hand, I’m not sure what you guys are after here. It sounds like you basically want a franchise agreement (she sells under your name, pays you for materials, keeps the profit). In that case she’s no longer your employee and is responsible for her own income taxes. I think you should get a lawyer to draw up a proper contract and she should get a lawyer to review it.

      I’m not psyched that she’s so indecisive, but in any case you need a contract so everyone understands the terms of the agreement.

      1. madge*

        We met with our attorney and accountant prior to creating the position. She didn’t seem to want an attorney for herself. I should have mentioned that.

        It is similar to a franchise agreement. Based on our growth each year (really, even if we stay at this year’s numbers), she stands to make a lot more money. She would also have free reign to manage it as she sees fit, structure the hours herself, etc. Basically, she would be taking the headache of that location’s staffing from us so we can focus on the overall brand, distribution, manufacturing, etc. We’re pretty much handing her a winery that we’ve established. We will still pay insurance, half of utilities (she uses the facility for her other business whenever she likes), and an hourly wage to her when she helps with winemaking (in which she is also very skilled).

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If you just want someone to take over the headache of staffing, why not structure it as a regular, salaried manager position and drop the profit-sharing piece, which seems to be the piece that has her so hesitant?

          That said, though, I agree with Graciosa below that the way she’s handled this gives me some pause about how she’d perform in that role.

    3. Graciosa*

      She isn’t ready for the position – rescind the offer.

      Running a business like this requires a certain level of independence that she doesn’t have. The operation of the store will require her to make critical decisions – sometimes with insufficient information – and do it on a timely basis, knowing that the consequences will be significant.

      Such a manager can – and should – take advantage of the advice and expertise of others, but must ultimately make difficult calls and be prepared to accept the results of them – good or bad.

      So far, she has:

      1. Declined to get appropriate guidance to help her understand the relevant information she has received;
      2. Inappropriately inserted her spouse (rather than appropriate business professionals like her lawyer or tax adviser) into business discussions she should be competent to handle herself; and
      3. Signaled if not her lack of interest in this opportunity, certainly her inability to make timely decisions even when provided with sufficient information.

      She doesn’t have the mental fortitude for the position you offered and you need to move on. You should know that your business would not have succeeded under this type of indecisive management, led by someone who was too risk averse to take chances even under favorable odds.

      I think your husband is absolutely correct.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think she is seeing a risk here that she is not willing to bear.

        I understand the need to have a steady and sure income stream. What is lacking is her determination/drive. She has no little voice inside her head saying “I can do THIS. Green light, GO.”

        Some people are steady paycheck people. That is who they are. You can kind of recognize them when their eyes glaze over at the mention of “percent of profits”. That set amount each week (month) means more to them than the possibility of making huge amounts in the future. A bird in hand…

        Please approach this conversation softly. You will probably find out that she is relieved the whole decision has been removed from her plate.

  107. A Jane*

    One more question for the group.

    Best Practices on Transition Documents?
    Right now, I’m creating a excel doc with work activity/function, high level steps, location of documentation, and additional notes.

    1. Leslie Yep*

      This might already be on your radar but I would also create a communications/relationship transition plan if you work closely with anyone. Make sure they are introduced to the new person and know when the new person will fully take over responsibilities. Also make sure that you take time to document or go through with the new person all of your key relationships (“Jane is just coming back from personal leave so if you make requests to her keep in mind that she’s working part days on Mondays and Fridays” “Wakeen is extremely motivated by relationships so take a little extra time up front to get to know him and your work will go even more smoothly.” etc)

  108. Cody c*

    Quick question. I have a friend (really me but for the sake of sounding less idiotic) this friend only got a phone number post interview and now is hesitant to follow up for fear of being annoying. Can this friend call and ask for an email address? He has tried searching linkedin and the company website for tips on how the email addresses are set up.

    1. Chriama*

      If you got a phone number from the hiring manager as the method of communication, use it. When you call you can say something like “in the future, is there an email address that would be more convenient for me to reach you at?”, but right now they gave you a phone number and I’m assuming that’s how they expect you to contact them.

      If the phone number is for the main switchboard and you have no contact with the hiring manager, email the person who first emailed you to set up contact and ask them who the appropriate person to follow up with is.

  109. a.n.o.n.*

    UGH I just committed my first gaffe in a meeting. I was on a conference call (everyone else was gathered in another location) taking meeting minutes. I had the phone on mute. The meeting was running WAYYY over and I was checking an email on my phone. Suddenly somone asked for my opinion on the current item and I blanked. I had been listening, but missed the last couple comments. I unmuted the phone and apologized that I had the phone on mute, implying I actually started to give an answer. Oops. Meetings are non-stop in this place and I’m unhappy here so my mind kind of wanders a bit. UGH. I’m new so hopefully no one thought too much of it.

    1. Izzy LeighGal*

      Don’t be so hard on yourself – this is something that happens all the time, to many different people. I’m sure that as you said, no one thought too much of it. Especially considering you were remote, on mute and it ran over.

    3. Jamie*

      This happens to everyone.

      So does being in a webinar and thinking your phone is on mute and making a snarky and highly insulting comment about the presenter…and finding out you are not on mute and remaining frozen while they try to figure out who said it.

      Not that it happened to me. More than once.

        1. Susan*

          So the question is – is realizing you are not on mute two seconds after you said “Who is a kitty?” in a silly voice better or worse? Not that I’ve done that.

          (And my cat never did answer if she was a kitty. )

          1. a.n.o.n.*

            I’d say better. That just means you love your kitty. An insult to the presenter is way worse, I think.

    4. a.n.o.n.*

      Turned out it was a non-issue – the question wasn’t even directed at me. My boss told me the person looked directly at her to ask the question and accidentally called her by MY title. I feel better now.

    5. Embarrassed (and hence Anonymous for this)*

      My gaffes with muting / unmuting include:

      1. Placing a fast food order on a project status call;
      2. Programming an appliance which beeped loudly every time I pressed a key; and
      3. An emergency visit to the bathroom.

      The last still makes me wish that everyone on that call would just leave the company so I would never have to think about it again. To be specific, I found out I was not muted by getting a “You have been muted” message part way through #3.

      Trust me, a.n.o.n. – yours was nothing to worry about.

  110. AVP*

    Is anyone else just completely dying for the return of Spring/Summer clothing? I just bought a denim overall dress online and I can’t believeI;’m bringing back overalls, but I can’t wait to wear it! Without layers and tights!

    1. Sunflower*

      UM YES! I was in Wal mart picking up shampoo this morning and managed to find myself in the middle of all the summer clothes. So many colored shorts and tanks and dresses. Crazy how much more spring/summer clothes I have than winter. I love spring because you can wear crazy colored pants/jeans and not sweat the way you might in the summer.

      Now I’ll just close my eyes at my desk and prevent I’m on the beach

    2. Sascha*

      I am normally a big fan of winter – well, my idealized version of winter, I live in Texas – but I feel like it’s been dragging on too long. As much as I love my boots and sweaters, I’m ready to break out the sandals tank tops.

    3. Jen RO*

      Yes! It was almost spring here for a few days (15C!) and now it’s back to rain again, feels like fall… And our winter was nowhere near as bad as in the US!

    4. The Other Dawn*

      I am, but, sadly, my new job doesn’t allow capris in the summer. I don’t think they’re that much cooler, but they make the day feel a little more breezy and laid back.

    1. Sunflower*

      I think you can take good stuff from this article and reject the bad. She makes a good point about embracing problems on your resume or job history instead of avoiding them which isn’t going to do you any good.

      I’m really skeptical of these boot camps. What kind of unique, amazing information does she have that will land you a job? I don’t believe there are really any job search tips out there that haven’t been heard before. If you read articles about getting jobs, they all repeat the same info. Network, Use resources, tailor your resume, do research. I want someone to take this boot camp and tell us what happened because I’m definitely curious…

      1. Stephanie*

        I did take good stuff from it! (And sent a thanks to the original sender.)

        I don’t get what magical “tips” are available at these things either. I’m thinking they function more as pep rallies. I read Bait and Switch by Barbara Ehrenreich a while back and she pretty much confirmed that a lot of these workshops weren’t that insightful.

    2. BB*

      I love getting emails of encouragement..Not.

      I got one from my dad that said the average starting salary for a 2013 grad is almost 45k. So since I graduated 3 years ago, there must be a TON of higher paying jobs for me right????

      Ugh can’t blame people for trying, esp parents, but sometimes it ends up being more discouraging than encouraging

    3. Trixie*

      I really, REALLY dislike Liz Ryan’s columns. Just so much fluff / flash and no real substance. Every time I see her articles on LI newsfeed, all I want to do is reply to every comment with AAM’s blog.

  112. Anonalicious*

    A very good work friend/colleague has accepted an offer at a Fortune 100 company in another state. It’s a fantastic opportunity for her, more responsibility, more room for advancement, significantly more pay, and a better environment for her young child to grow up in (better schools, more activities). It’s really everything you’d hope for in a new job. It’s not her dream job, but it’s a great job. She’ll be done in a few days and it has left me a bit jealous, but also desiring a change.

    So I’m attempting to put together a 5 year (or less) plan to get out of this job and this town, and on to something better for me, my career, and my family. Except I’m not sure how to do that. Thoughts?

    1. Katie*

      Would your next thing require additional training? That’s something you can plan out. Also, transitions often require money, so I’d add savings to your plan.

    2. NylaW*

      Katie has good ideas. Moving is always more expensive that you think it will be or than it should be.

      You might also start looking at jobs you would want to apply for that are open now to get an idea of what requirements they have and what companies are looking for in those positions. You could also start checking out companies and seeing what they are all about to have an idea of where you might want to apply and which ones to keep an eye on.

      If you are going to need to buy a house or rent an apartment in the new area, start keeping an eye on the real estate and rental markets in areas you want to live, or even just start looking into areas you would want to live. You’d be able to get an idea of costs and save towards that, also keeping in mind that those costs are likely to go up if you don’t make a move for 3-5 years.

      1. bev*

        I agree. The first thing to look up should be the cost of living. Do you want to move to a bigger city? A similar sized city? The next thing to look up is the weather. What type of weather do you want to live in? Can you live in a snowstorm during the winter? Do you prefer sunny most of the year? Some things to think about.

  113. Elizabeth West*

    Gah, 500+ comments before I even got in. But kittehs!!!

    Spring break is next week. I’m going to use it to get ahead of the schedule on schoolwork. I’m on track with assignments, but not with readings. Urgh.

    I have decided that I’m not taking a class this summer. I need to write a sequel to the bank robber book and study screenplay writing (just in case) on my own time. This is non-negotiable. Whether I go back or not in the fall is still up in the air. I ran my revised opening to CurrentBook by First Reader and he was pleased with it. I’m hoping to start querying soon. This book has come together much faster than the last one, once I finally actually finished the thing. And I’m thinking big thoughts, dreaming big dreams, and I keep having a feeling that something major is going to happen but it has nothing to do with school. I’m going to roll with it because http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/your-thoughts-can-release-abilities-beyond-normal-limits/

    And I want to take that UK trip, just not sure exactly when. We only get 40 hours of PTO rollover at FY end in June, which kind of sucks, because I won’t have enough time to take it later but I don’t have the money to take it now. Arrgh!

    1. AVP*

      If you’re looking to learn about screenwriting can I recommend William Goldman’s Adventures in the Screen Trade? When I was in film school it was pretty much required for everyone, and he’s hilarious. I think there are sequels as well.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Ooh, yes, thanks! I’ll look for it. First Reader recommended that if I sell this book that I try to hang onto the movie rights. He said if I can write the screenplay I can make more money. Since he’s both a novelist and a screenwriter, I defer to his judgment. But it would be nice if I knew how! Plus, I have an idea that might work better as a screenplay. And vague dreams of an Oscar someday…. ;)

  114. Seeking Interview Wording Advice*

    It’s been a while since I was job searching so please bear with me. I realize a standard answer to why are you looking to leave your current job is “looking for more challenges”. I’m looking to slow down instead. My role is in public accounting and I want to change to focus on 1 entire organization’s set of records instead of for so many companies. That’s my next goal- to leave public accounting.

    After a restructuring of our firm, things have went south. It’s 7 months post-restructuring and it’s a clusterfudge. We have almost no managerial support, situations where the partners need to step in – they don’t, and 1 partner routinely throws staff under the bus. Of course it’s NOT a good idea to say that in an interview so how do I explain that I’d like to change from public accounting?

    “I’d prefer to focus on just 1 organization’s set of records” or “would like to slow down and specialize in accounting in the teapot industry”.

    Critique please. Thanks!

    1. AAA*

      I’d go with something between the two. Something like “I am looking to shift the scale of what I do and focus solely on the teapot industry. I’ve realized that I am much more interested in going into depth within the scope of one organization, rather than stretching myself to cover the breadth of organizations I cover now.”

      Good luck!

      1. De Minimis*

        It’s a fairly common transition for people who have worked in public for a while.

        I might go with something along the lines of “I provided accounting services to the teapot industry, became more and more interested in it and would like to make the transition to working in the financial division of a teapot company.” I wouldn’t portray it as wanting to slow down or wanting to get out of public accounting, but more along the lines of “I gained exposure to this during my career in public and would love to work in it full time.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Reframe this.

      You have been in and out of a wide variety of situations and concerns with your current job. You understand numbers and how numbers tell stories. Your experience has allowed you insight to many, many stories.
      You would now like to take all this experience and focus on just one company. You are an asset because range of experiences working with numerous companies.

      A friend, who is an accountant just took a new job and decided to give up other part time jobs he had. The new employer jumped at hiring him because of his range of experiences and his ability to draw on those experiences to make improvements/clean up messes/etc.

      Reframe- this is a good thing and advantagous to the new employer.

  115. OP#5 from yesterday*

    I’m the person who wrote in about the secret project my CEO gave me; Alison answered my question yesterday.

    Well, that project is still secret, but CEO stopped by my office yesterday and introduced me to Bigshot Consultant, and informed me that Consultant has been hired to do the long-term strategic plan for our organization and I will be the project manager from our side of the project. So, more seconded work, but at least I can talk about this project to my boss. I think I should also be able to cloak any additional work the CEO gives me under the guise of the strategic planning work. A little disingenuous, but at least more workable.

  116. Jess*

    Does anybody know any good blogs that focus on stuff like organizing tips and tricks for administrative/support people? I’m not really looking for hardcore help but I think it’s fun to see how other people organize their work, what their “best practices” are, etc.

  117. chewbecca*

    Oh, yay! I missed the reference discussion a couple weeks ago because I was on vacation (getting engaged!), so I’ve been waiting for the open thread.

    I’m in a bit of a pickle. I’m not comfortable using the supervisors at my two previous jobs as references for various reasons. I was let go from my last job (I transitioned to working from home mid-way through my time there and learned the hard way that I’m not well suited to working from home – which I’m always up front about in interviews), and the supervisor at my job before that was fired shortly after I left for misconduct.

    This means I don’t have a reference from a supervisor since 2006. I have a reference from a coworker at my current job (since I don’t want my supervisor knowing I’m looking), but I’m starting to think my reference history might come off a little shady because of the gap.

    I got a lot of positive feedback from my supervisors at my last job before I worked from home, but I think my performance after might tarnish whatever reference they’d give me.

    Any advice on how I should approach this with interviewers?

    1. Jamie*

      Yay – congrats!!

      Are there other members of management from those jobs you could use, even if they weren’t your direct supervisors?

      1. chewbecca*

        I’m still on good terms with one of the nurses for the doctor I worked with, she’d actually be able to speak to my performance more than my boss at that job.

        (On a side note – I’ve been lurking on here for at least a year and just recently started commenting. When I saw you replied I got all “Jamie replied to my comment! I’m in now!”)

  118. BB*

    I could be wrong about this but I thought I saw a section on the site where Alison links to other good career blogs or just other blogs she enjoys? I can’t find it…

    On that note, what are other good career blogs?

  119. Ash*

    I am so late to the party today…

    Another open thread, another week, still no progress on new job. I am awaiting news on THREE jobs right now and every day that ticks by is misery. I am home sick today and just so ready to quit. /rant

    No question this week, just need to sulk.

    1. Audiophile*

      I can relate. Though, I’ve had no new interviews since last month, I am so ready to quit my job.

  120. Anonsie*

    I can’t remember who it was who told me to sort of jiggle my slides when Gram staining last week, but thank you! I did get way better color that way, although I have yet to decolorize my G- very well, it really helped.

  121. Twin Cities Meetup!*

    A few of us from the Twin Cities are getting together next week:

    Tuesday, March 11, 6:00 p.m.
    Dunn Brothers: 4648 E. Lake Street (on the river)

    I’ll be there (Victoria Nonprofit). Hope to see others!

  122. Jamie*

    Does anyone else hate the Office 365 admin interface? I don’t know how you make it so user unfriendly unless it was done on purpose.

    I hate this thing.

    1. AVP*

      I don’t know about the Admin interface but I hate the whole thing in general. I thought it would be convenient to go subscription-based (based on the fact that I have a similar set up for the Adobe Creative Suite and it works brilliantly and saved me a lot of money).

      Setting up Office 365 was a nightmare and it still logs me out every other day. And tries to tell me I don’t exist. And tries to force me into setting up a microsoft/outlook email account. Among so many other annoying quirks that didn’t exist before 365!

    2. Jess*

      I haven’t used Office 365 but I do hate all things Microsoft with a passion (Don’t get me started on how illogical and user-hostile Outlook is). Too bad they’re the only show in town as far as my workplace goes.

      1. Jamie*

        I’ve been as close to an MS fangirl as you can be without the t-shirt…because I kind of make my living running a Windows shop – but they are losing me with this. It’s not just 365 it’s how they are over complicating everything when it comes to volume licensing. I am scrupulous about licensing – I will not use illegal software and I am happy to pay for an maintain per usage agreement everything we need…why do that have to make it so freaking complicated for me to do so?

        They should be bending over backwards for people like me who are religiously compliant to make it easy for us to make payments, add licenses, etc. Last time I had a billing issue I called their tech support and her solution? Void my purchase and have me make a new microsoftonline account and repurchase it.

        No – I’m not having my users spread across two accounts and I’m not doing something to ass backwards and clunky because you don’t understand how your billing works.

        So yes, I am in a fight with Microsoft and we’re not speaking. I’m sure between them and me I’m the only one who cares.

        (I’m also giving Comcast the silent treatment because I am furious with how they have configured their ondemand nonsense.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Thanks for the notes on 365. We were looking at getting this but now, I think it just moved to no how, no way, not ever.

          1. Jamie*

            I don’t like it for the admin screen – it’s still a really cost effective way for a single user to get Office.

            Not a huge fan, just saying if you’re one person this is much better/cheaper than the old licenses.

  123. DCQ*

    Here’s a fun one I accidentally sent to Allison (meant for another blog) who mentioned it might be good to post here —

    What do you use as a work bag that is big enough to carry a padfolio or files? I carry a Modalu Pippa (http://www.modalu.com/shop/pippa-bags-handbags.html/) which is a great bag, but too small for my folio and files. I am a small person and totes overwhelm me and I would like something a bit more structured than say a longchamps nylon tote.

    Let’s say budget is $500 and below… and go!

    1. Stephanie*

      I have this in green and get tons of compliments: http://www.fossil.com/en_US/shop/women/gifts/gifts_under_200/sydney_shopper-zb5487p.html

      It’s got lots of built-in pockets and credit card slots. It also has a key hook. There’s also a handy hidden exterior pocket, which is great for a cell phone or keys. I’m not petite (so ymmv), but I find it’s a good size without being GIANT. I can fit my 16″ laptop in it.

      It’s also constantly on sale as Fossil seems to rotate different colors and patterns in and out.

      Longchamps bags kind of baffle me. I looked at one at Nordstrom like “This is it? This is $128 and doesn’t even have an interior pocket?”

      1. Windchime*

        Stephanie, this is so cute! I’ve been looking for something like this; nice, but not all blinged-out. Simple and classic and leather. Love!

    3. Jamie*

      Cheaper than what you’re looking for – but this is the one I’m carrying now…http://www.ebags.com/product/heritage/jamie-b-17-laptop-tote/253785

      And I have a couple more from Jamie B. My boss bought me one once because …that’s my name and she thought it was cute…that the label already had my name. We’re adorable around here!

      Not high end fancy, but nice looking and professional and really hold up – and I am brutal on bags. Works for a laptop and or a couple of iPads or folders, when I’m going old school paper.

      1. Audiophile*

        I bought a Fossil bag, about 3 years ago, I hoping to use as a laptop bag. Laptop hadn’t come in the mail yet ( it’s Lenovo, so it was coming from Singapore) well when it finally came, it just barely fit in the bag. For the $200+ I had paid for it, I returned it.
        I may look for the one Stephanie listed above, as I basically stopped carrying a padfolio because I had nothing to put it in and never took notes.

    5. Cat*

      I use a basic leather tote bag on a day-to-day basis which I like but is not really big enough for a laptop or files. However, I just got the Lo and Sons OMG bag for times when I do need to take files/laptop/commuter shoes etc. It’s fantastic. It’s also big enough to use for a weekend trip.

    6. Trixie*

      I regularly check out the totes at TJ Maxx, Marshall’s and Ross stores. My last purchase was a decent size $25 Nine West tote that was both professional and non-flashy without all the buckles, studs and doodads.

      1. Stephanie*

        I got a great plain navy tote for like $50 from Marshall’s that I use for interviews. No buckles, studs, rhinestones, or cutouts in sight!

    8. Graciosa*

      I alternate between small totes and messenger bags, usually Coach. More specifically, I’ve used the Madison East/West tote in Saffiano leather (better color selection than the messenger bags, and the size lets me slips a non-bulky purse in with my small laptop) and the Bleecker Legacy courier bags.

      One personal irritation with the Coach site – you have to switch to the men’s section to see traditional business bags. Seriously? No one has figured out that women use these too?

  124. Stuck*

    Background: I am the only support for two attorneys. I handle a/r, a/p, payroll, scheduling, clerical and a teapot process for clients from our IOLTA account. If I got hit by a bus, they would be in a real bind because they (and no one else) knows how to handle the IOLTA teapot process. I told my boss a year ago that I would probably be moving in spring 2014. My husband got a job in another city and I gave notice to my boss in mid February. My husband leaves April 1 and wants me to go with him at that time. My boss is balking. He hasn’t had a single interview (and he went on vacation for two weeks in late Feb, after I told him about my move). He wants me to stay through at least the end of April to give him enough time to bring in another person and train them on teapots. Teapots is a very intense, deadline driven, complex process that takes about three days out of every month. Six weeks should be enough time in normal job circumstances but this teapot process is difficult to learn and takes several cycles to get it right. He is in denial and dragging his feet about searching for a new person. I do have a list of resumes for him to review (an aside: holy crap are most of them really bad – mistakes, too long, bad formatting, etc). I want to compromise and say I’ll stick around until the end of teapot process in mid April. Maybe I can come back in May for spot check the new person if he pays my travel expenses. I don’t want to just up and leave. I plan to be out of the workforce for a while to be home with my medically complex son so will definitely need him as a reference – I can’t burn this bridge. How do I navigate this?

    1. The IT Manager*

      I plan to be out of the workforce for a while to be home with my medically complex son so will definitely need him as a reference – I can’t burn this bridge. How do I navigate this?

      This throws in wrench in my suggestion to leave and let your boss deal with the problem he’s created.

      You don’t owe him anything; you gave him a lot of notice and fair warning. He’s the one dragging his feet. Given that you want to keep the bridge open your suggestion of coming back if he pays you in May is a good one. My concern, though, he will continue dragging his feet until you force the issue and he still might be mad and not give the most positive reference.

    2. Fiona*

      I would talk to him about letting you start interviewing on his behalf – and just have him and attorney #2 meet with the finalists. You sound like you know at least as much, if not more, than your boss does about your job and what kind of skill set would be needed to be successful.

  125. Biff*

    I could use some help with a situation…. (couldn’t we all)

    The background information: (there’s two of us in this question) a few years ago our jobs picked up and moved to a city. Compensation dramatically increased and made it feasible to move here along with the job. About 3-4 months after we got here, the market went NUTS and we are experiencing unprecedented rises in cost-of-living. A crappy apartment (living la vida state college style) costs an astronomical ~3-5k. Food prices keep nudging up and gas is typically 50 cents more than outlying areas. According to the local newspaper, the area is also seeing unprecedented population growth as well. Traffic went to bad to worse.

    We came here with the anticipation that we’d only be living in the college-style apartment (complete with vague carpet stains) for 6-9 months while we got together the money for a condo or a house. We also thought we’d maybe move to one of the outlying areas to get some space/open air. With house prices more than double what they were when we got here and traffic having stretched commute times, none of this is feasible. (We can’t afford a house in the suburbs, and if somehow we could, we’d have 2 hour commutes twice a day, which seems utterly pointless.) We’d need raises of 60-70% just to keep up with the market, but even typical raises seem unlikely. (There were none last year, either.)

    We’ve come to realize that without raises, we may very well get trapped in the crappy apartment as our ability to save is whittled away by rising prices. We think we’ve got about 6 months to a year before this turns into downhill slide, so we asked our manager about maintaining our current pay but moving to a branch office in a city with a more reasonable cost of living. Our manager suggested a location and we really liked it. It was a significant improvement over the situation here. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out.

    A few weeks later our manager suggested another location. It’s cheaper, but only by a slim margin. It doesn’t address most of our concerns, and it’s an area that appears to be just a few months away from going bonkers with business (same as what happened where we are now.) In short, it looks more like it will delay the issue, not solve it. It’s a BAD option for us. But I’m concerned that if we don’t take this option, we will be perceived as troublesome.

    We really like our jobs. I can’t overstate that. We also really like our manager. But realistically this problem isn’t going to conveniently go away so that we can enjoy the good job with the good boss. I wish I could keep on ignoring it, but I’ve stopped being able to.

    Does anyone have any thoughts?

    1. bev*

      Would you be willing to rent a room in a house? I live in southern California and even to live in an apartment on a college lifestyle, $3k – $5k sounds outlandish. I don’t know how far away your apartment is from the company but have you also considered taking public transit? You can save a lot of money that way. Then maybe save up for several months to find a better place to live. Or another alternative: carpool. There are websites for this.

      1. Biff*

        I think I probably didn’t explain the problem very well….

        I have a small family — we aren’t going to all cram into a single bedroom. I see how it might have seemed this way, but I’m not talking about a situation where we’re doing entry level work right out of college. Between the two of us we make almost 200k a year. (Which is absolutely reasonable compensation for what we do.) We have a two bedroom apartment and it’s pretty tight some days. The lack of a yard is a Big Problem.

        Public transportation is really spotty here, in some areas it’s quite good and in others it either doesn’t exist or simply doesn’t work. (I mean, really poorly thought out. In my neighborhood, the buses stop running before most people get home for the evening.) We don’t drive to work right now, we walk or carpool, so money isn’t being wasted on that for now.

        The real problem is we cannot find a home in a reasonable price range unless we commit to a four-hour commute each day. If not longer. Once we add in the gas we’d burn/monthly passes our housing would be more adequate, but our monthly outflow would be the same, or perhaps even worse if prices go up.

        I know this sounds ridiculous. If I didn’t live here, I wouldn’t believe it either. But we are utterly stumped.

          1. Biff*

            Forgive me for being stupid but I’m not seeing how renting a house instead of an apartment would help that situation all that much. A cheap house with a yard would be even more than what we pay right now, which is a rent increase or two (depending on the size — our neighbors got hit with a several hundred dollar increase all at once, but another person said they usually aren’t that bad) away from a significant concern.

            I’m not asking really, how to save money or cut more corners to stay put. I honestly don’t WANT to stay put — I want to go to one of the branch offices like my boss originally offered. I guess what I’m asking is how do I explain to my boss that there’s no band-aid solution to the problem we’ve run into — reasonable pay is not enough in this area for us to make careers out of the jobs they would like us to make careers of, and they won’t let us move to an area where we can make careers out of these jobs (because in those areas, reasonable pay would afford a professional, not college-student existence.)

        2. short geologist*

          You have the advantage in that you already have a high salary. So you should be able to move to a lower-cost area and keep something similar to your current salary (yes, yes, current salary shouldn’t be the automatic default for a new job’s salary, but often it is).

          Why do you feel you need to stay in this expensive place? Schooling for the kids? Family? If it’s just the job, why are you sticking with this employer?

          If the job is so awesome and doesn’t pay you enough to live on, it is Not An Awesome Job.

          I picked up and moved from an expensive place to live to a cheap place in a different region of the country. We saved so much money, we could afford to live on ONE salary. Do I miss some of the culture/big city excitement? Yeah, but now I can actually AFFORD to go out and experience what little culture there is out here (kidding, there’s actually more going on than you’d think).

            1. Biff*

              Yeah…. I was really hoping to not have to do that since I like my job, I’m good at it, AND I have a great boss. I mean, it does seem stupid to leave that.

          2. Biff*

            I guess what gets me is this SHOULD be enough to live on. Anywhere else it WOULD be enough to live on, and party hearty every weekend if we felt like it. It’s only due to recent surges in this area that this salary is out-of-step. People that purchased houses a couple years ago/have always lived in the area (and thus have controlled rent) can still live on what we are making — we just showed up at the right place at the wrong time to get hit by a wave.

    2. Arthur*

      If you can’t afford to live there, and the transfer options at work aren’t favourable, you need to start job hunting now for a position that will pay you enough to live there, or that will enable you to move to a location with lower cost of living requirements. It sounds like your employer is trying to help, but there will only be so much they can reasonably do.

      But you already know that, don’t you?

      1. Biff*

        No, no, we know that. We just, like I said to geologist, don’t want to give up a good thing without a fight. And I figured that there miught be some magic way to explain this to my boss that I wasn’t figuring out on my own. Sometimes I feel like I need to speak in unclear metaphors to get points across, and I’m not that great at coming up with punchy metaphors.

  126. Anonanon*

    Does anyone have tips for dealing with a severe lack of motivation? I’ve been struggling with this for awhile now and it’s starting to take a toll on my work. I feel the problem began since I returned from vacation. I had a very busy and hectic period before then and have been dealing with some family issues since. I now feel a bit drained and spend my time at work doing the bare minimum, particularly when it comes to a certain project that I’ve found quite challenging. Any suggestions on how to overcome this?

    1. Biff*

      I’ve had the same problem recently — work blew up for six months, some personal stuff happened and I’ve been struggling with off-and-on motivation for months now. I think it was because there was no light at the end of the tunnel. It’s just been a lot of grinding. Vacations have not helped me that much. You might honestly have too much on your plate and need some of it taken off.

    2. In progress*

      It sounds like burnout and like you’re still recovering. I’ve noticed when I can’t do anything it’s a sign I need to rest more.

    3. Jamie*

      Little victories will do wonders. Long term complex projects can be tough since you don’t always get those awesome little wins along the way to keep you up.

      Find something at work you can win – not against someone else, but something to master, solve a problem…whatever. You need to win one to get momentum going again.

    4. bev*

      I would consider taking a class or hobby in your spare time. It feels like you are feeling drained because both work and personal life is pulling you down right now. Find time for fun.

  127. giginyc*

    Question about resumes:
    I have 2 focused resumes (one editorial and one office). The office has Recent and Other sections to explain chronological gaps.
    I interviewed with a recruiter and she said to blend them together so it shows I don’t have chronological gaps, and to show hiring managers I’ve been keeping busy regardless of what job it was. I explained that was what the Recent/Other sections were for, and she said hiring managers like to see it listed, one after the other, b/c their eyes are looking for that time order.
    Doesn’t this look unfocused? 2 editorial jobs here, one office job there, another 2 editorial, office, editorial… What say you on this?

    1. Ollie*

      I think office and editorial jobs are in the same-ish category (as opposed to totally different things, like having an office job, then being a baker, then working as a swim teacher, then taking another office job,), so I don’t think it looks too unfocused.

      Presumably the recruiter works closely with the company hiring people, so they would know how to organize the resume in the most appealing way for that specific company?

      1. giginyc*

        Thanks Ollie. I see what you mean.
        Receptionist vs. Editorial Assistant/Staff Writer (I worked as a receptionist before graduating college vs I now have a Bachelors in Professional Writing); I am applying to 2 different types of positions so I created 2 focused ones. I followed AAM for the ‘Recent’ and ‘Other’ experience, so I was thrown off when recruiter told me to blend them.
        Editorial Assistant jobs are hard to come by as many now are being relabeled as internships (though Editorial Assistant is a step up from Editorial Intern). So I’m applying to Receptionist/office assistant jobs.
        I don’t want to appear overqualified with my college+3 internships + freelance writing experience when applying to be a receptionist.

        1. Similar situation*

          I recently wrote a letter to AAM about not including 3 internships on my resume if I felt they’d make me look overqualified for a job, so I totally get where you’re coming from.

          What I think I learned from writing that post is not to listen to every recruiter. Some will prefer one thing, and some another. I’d probably keep doing it the way you’re doing it, esp. if that’s how AAM recommended. I think I got really thrown off when I actually got some feedback from a recruiter, because you usually don’t, but that’s not necessarily how most people are perceiving it.

          1. giginyc*

            Thanks Similar situation. I had only submitted the blended resume to the recruiter as suggested, and kept my original separated resumes as they were for my independent applying. I saw/read your AAM post awhile ago! :)
            If I leave off the internships entirely, that would leave a huge and very questionable chronological gap if I blend the 2. It only makes sense to list all the (editorial/writing) internships when applying for Editorial/Writing jobs. Only (my most recent) 1 internship is on the Receptionist resume for chronological/gap reasons, but sectioned off as ‘Other’. I guess that’s where all my confusion started. Both the 2 focused resumes, and the 1 blended resume all make sense when it’s explained to me, so that’s why I got confused.

        2. Fiona*

          If anything, I’d expect to see “Relevant” and “Other” experience on the more specialized (editorial) resume, and less breakdown on the office version.

          1. giginyc*

            Thanks Fiona
            I have enough editorial/writing experience for it all to be relevant for an entry level editorial job/all on 1 resume; my receptionist experience is kind of old, thus the ‘Relevant’ (office experience) and ‘Other’ (editorial–more recent job experience–to fill the time gap)

  128. Minnie*

    Due to merger my job title has changed from Branch Service Manager to Client Service Manager. ( I am basically an Assistant Branch Manager). How would I incorporate both titles on my résumé. Or do I use the most current title.

    1. bev*

      I think it’s like this:

      Client Services Manager March 2014 – Present
      Branch Services Manager (month/year) – March 2014
      Company Name
      Location
      Accomplishments/Responsibilities

      This is assuming nothing else changed about your position. If there is more to your role now, I would separate the two positions.

      1. bev*

        I just reread the original post again. If the company merged with another, then I’m not sure you would still be able to use the above format. Maybe you do need to separate the two positions so it shows both companies’ name.

    2. Fiona*

      If the company name has changed and the role is essentially the same, I’d list it as:

      Client Service Manager / Branch Service Manager March 2008 – present
      ABC Company (formerly XYZ Company)
      -bullet
      -bullet
      -bullet

  129. Jamie*

    Have you ever met someone where you just don’t get the hype?

    I know I’m not a people person, but I don’t dislike people easily. Most people are irrelevant to me until I like them…you usually have to work to get into my column of personal animus. But every so often it will just happen that everyone thinks X is just super awesome and they get special treatment and everyone bows down before the genius of X and…I just don’t see it.

    It’s not jealousy – I am absolutely not immune to that but this is in an area I have zero interest. The special treatment is less than what I receive…I am happy with the level of respect people seem to have for me. I don’t feel less than – I just see competent and highly adequate where others are seeing brilliance. I know from others snarky comments that I’m not the only one who sees the Emperor’s New Clothes are a little light on fabric – so it’s not just me (although I would never voice an opinion either way aloud)…but it’s just weird when people whose opinions usually respect just see something that I really don’t think is there.

    And it’s feeding an arrogance that isn’t warranted. It’s not aimed at me, I just see it in general attitude and it baffles me. They are buying their own hype.

    The others who talk about it openly are well qualified and their work is highly valued and are in a far better position to vet this person’s contributions than I. And they don’t get it either.

    And no schmooze, not great social skills…not particularly liked personally by those who revere him.

    It’s just the damnedest thing.

    1. 22dncr*

      Happens to me ALL the time. Maybe because I was taught to make up my own mind?? No idea why. And being ex-dncr I saw it a lot!

      Goes along with how people “forget” all the bad #$%# about what a co-worker has done the minute said co-worker gets promoted. I’m usually the only one that “remembers”.

      I guess being from the artiste spectrum has made me see through bs since I was around it so much? Plus I know really famous people and they are not like that so there’s that.

      Does this make sense? Never really been able to articulate this ability. The song “Doctor my eyes” by Jackson Brown about sums it up.

    3. Graciosa*

      I once read a comment from an elementary school teacher talking about her observation that other people (kids in this case) take you at your own assessment in ways that didn’t make sense objectively. For example, a child who believed she was unusually pretty was often perceived as the prettiest child in the group by her peers even when that child was not the prettiest based purely on physical appearance. The teacher found it a little baffling.

      There could be some of that going on here – maybe some people are so convinced of something about themselves that they manage to convey that certainty to others even where it is not objectively warranted. If you’re less responsive to that subtle expectation that you too will bow down, that may cause some of the disconnect.

  130. mango284*

    ugh, totally just blew a phone screen. Anyone else get more nervous for phone interviews than in-person interviews? I HATE the phone… always have.

    My mind went blank from nervousness at one point and then I totally downplayed my experience. ”

    Interviewer: Do you have experience with _____?
    Me: No, not really…

    what?!? I DO have experience with that! I don’t know what I was thinking… I’m so afraid of saying I can do something and then looking stupid on the job when I can’t do it as well as I should be doing it, based on my experience. It’s easier just to say I don’t have experience with it. And lose out on job opportunities as a result… :(

    1. Yup*

      Do you ever practice phone screens with a friend beforehand? I’ve found it really helpful for getting a handle on the nerves. A friend and I act as each other’s interview buddies — we’ll literally schedule a time and one will call the other to “begin” the mock interview.

      1. mango284*

        That’s a really good idea.

        I’m still cringing thinking of how badly this phone screen went. Luckily it wasn’t for a job I was that crazy about getting and I kind of got the impression right off the bat it wouldn’t be a great fit.

        1. Lore*

          I’ve totally done that. The worst: a phone screener asked how familiar I was with a certain, fairly common method for one of the major components of my job, and without thinking, I answered, “Well, we don’t do that at all here [here being my current job that I’d been at for many years]…but [realizing I’d just shot myself in both feet] I do have experience with it from x and y freelance jobs.”

  131. Ashley*

    Today is my last day at my current job and I have been working my a** off for the last two weeks trying to wrap everything up. I am so stressed out, trying to get everything done by the time I leave today, and so glad I’m going to be out of this place soon!

    No question, I just needed to vent.

  133. AskingForAFriend*

    I’m asking this for my SO. He has been in the same job (a store manager for a high-end retailer) for several year. He has managed several stores in our city and has always exceeded the sales goals consistently. He was moved to an underperforming store about six months ago and has done a phenomenal job turning it around (sales are 200% above their goals, a good staff in place, etc).

    He has mentioned to his boss several times that he would like a “higher priority” store. His boss told him that at the beginning of this year that he will be moving people around and that he will consider my SO for one of the higher priority locations.

    Well, today the boss announced the changes – and my SO is exactly where he’s been. He is so hurt by the decision and just can’t figure out what he’s doing wrong.

    His boss favors “certain types” of people over others and my SO doesn’t fit this mold. That’s the only thing I can think of that might be holding him back.

    I’ve been encouraging him for months to start looking for outside opportunities, because I don’t think he’ll continue to move up under this manager. My SO also wants to get out of this type of work and into a more “9 to 5” type of job, so now seems like a good time to make the transition.

    Has anyone else went through this? I’m all out of advice for him.

    1. Susan*

      I can’t really comment on whether he should start looking or if his boss has it in for him, but I think in situations like this sometimes it’s not as hopeless as it seems because you can really get caught up in that frustration sometimes when you clearly deserve a promotion or whatever it is.

      I had one friend who really wanted to do one thing, and she was getting a lot of experience in that area, and a job opened up in that area, and her boss knew she wanted it, and totally got someone from the outside! She was crushed (and annoyed), but maybe 6 months later she did get that job. I’m not sure what happened exactly, but I think maybe sometimes just continuing to let them know you’re interesting without coming off as passive aggressive, just a friendly nudge, is helpful.

      I can also think of a friend in retail who kept getting overlooked for an assistant manager position and eventually she got that too. I mean who knows why managers do what they do sometimes. But maybe there’s something to that adage of good things happen to those who wait.

      I’m not trying to say that it will definitely work out for your SO. If he is in an unhappy situation, a new job might be the answer. But if he stays part of his plan should be to keep letting the boss know he’d love to be at a different location and not just taking this as a sign that it will never happen.

      1. AskingForAFriend*

        That’s a great point – good things do happen for those who wait.

        I didn’t mention this in my earlier post (because I didn’t want to overly complicate the story) but my SO was actually moved into a higher priority store a year ago. His sales there were great – one of the highest in the region. He was there for about six months and his manager started complaining about the staffing there. The manager felt he wasn’t doing a good job recruiting. So, the manager moved my SO to a lower priority store (where he’s currently still working) in order to improve his recruiting skills and of course, to turn the store around because it was a mess. The recruiting issue was the only reason given for the move.

        Since then, my SO has rolled up his sleeves and worked to improve upon this area. He has done very well and has a wonderful staff in place, which isn’t easy especially for part-time retail work.

    2. AVP*

      Might it also be that, if his talents are for turning things around and improving sales, they specifically want to keep him in the types of stores where he’ll make a big bottom-line impact? Maybe they figure that they can move a more placid person into the flagship because sales there are fine, but they want SO in a place where he generates sales that others wouldn’t be able to.

      If that’s the case I do think he needs to start the transition process.

      1. AskingForAFriend*

        AVP, you are correct – my SO is very good at turning around underperforming stores in a relatively short amount of time. He’s done it several times.

        The odd thing about the flagship stores (at least in our city) is that their sales are struggling. Meanwhile, my SO’s store sales have flourished. My SO’s manager has brought in managers from outside of the company and they never last more than a few months, so one might think it might be a good idea to give an internal candidate a chance.

        My SO has continually and respectfully expressed his interest in moving to a higher priority store and it continually falls on dead ears.

    3. Graciosa*

      So your SO was told he would be considered for one of the higher priority stores at a specific time and didn’t get it – did he ask his boss why? I understand his being hurt and unable to figure out what he’s doing wrong (the answer may well be nothing, the boss just isn’t going to do it) but his boss’s answer to the question should be enlightening.

      Either he’ll get some specific feedback – or specific insight into the boss’s thinking (for example, another factor that played into the decision that has more to do with other people than your SO) – or he’ll get a really vague response that avoids answering the question. This should give your SO valuable insight into whether he really can have a future under this boss.

      If he can’t, I have to say it sounds like he has some fantastic accomplishments that should help him find another job where he can succeed the way he wishes – and deserves.

      Good luck.

    1. Susan*

      Oh, I read that. I though it was very immature on the part of the receiver (which was ironic because her whole message was condescending). I think women like the sender know that they don’t *expect* a response from queries like this, but they certainly don’t expect such a negative one either.

      The woman strikes me as someone who gets a lot of her self worth from bullying others. I mean her response was so long–it’s not like it was a matter of not having time. She was just hellbent on being mean! And clearly, it wasn’t just a lapse of judgment since she did it before. I honestly think it’s great this went viral because her behavior was unacceptable.

  135. Sarah*

    I have a really aggravating situation at work. I work at a nonprofit where I write and manage grants that support our operations and programs. My CEO has asked me to raise an additional $20,000 next year to support our education programs. The education programs are contract-based with the school district and fee-based for workshops, classes, summer camps. What I need to raise money for are the two program administrators (they do not directly teach). I went to write a grant for our in-school programs, and asked the program manager to supply some information, including a program budget with her salary included. She refuses to disclose her salary (I have a pretty good idea of what she makes anyway). My CEO is sympathetic to this, and wants to find a way to not call it personnel costs or to break it down into a percentage so her entire salary isn’t disclosed. As an experienced grant writer, this is completely idiotic. How can I raise money to support your position when you won’t tell me what you make?! Fellow grant writers/fundraisers, any advice?

    1. Susan*

      My only idea is to research what salaries are for similar positions elsewhere. Then perhaps touch base with the woman again and let her know that you’re basing your funding for her position off of research at similar facilities and if your figures are egregiously off-base with what she’s used to, then she should let you know before you finalize your proposal. Then she doesn’t even necessarily need to respond if your figure is fine, although it sure would be nice to not be in the dark here.

    2. ya*

      That is ridiculous! I am not a grant writer so I don’t really know what you should do – but I think you should sit the CEO down and explain to her that this is absolutely standard practice, and no funder will take you seriously if you aren’t transparent, period.

      The CEO’s salary is probably public record as well, right – on the form 990? She can use that as an example to the program manager, it might help her feel less singled out. Also – you don’t need the PM to disclose – the CEO can do that if she chooses to, and she needs to.

      Yikes, how frustrating!

      1. CTO*

        Great advice. It’s really not ethical to report a made-up salary, and you could land in hot water if you intentionally report an incorrect budget or hide information. That could come back to harm both you personally and the entire organization. It would definitely endanger future funding if you were to get caught. Does your CEO understand the full potential consequences here?

    3. So Anon*

      At one organization I worked in, we had a rate we included for each category of staff, with the expectation it all evens out in the end. And it did, although it made me uncomfortable. Beyond just raising the money, part of good stewardship is the donor knowing you can back up your numbers. What happens if you over or under budget based on bad information and then have a variance? When it comes to reporting and renewal time, you could have some ‘splaining to do.

      Couldn’t your CEO could just give you the information?

    4. Trixie*

      I’m a little surprised in a NP the CEO isn’t sitting her down and saying this is something we need to do because it could come up again and again in future funding requests. If anything, her salary may be included in 990s within the last 4-5 years when more staff salaries were included. (I think this has changed recently.) And, what happens when the two admins end up being paid the same if not more than the manager because she didn’t share?

  136. Susan*

    I have an interview for a more corporate assistant type job Monday, and I think I’ve been a little nervous because I’ve been self conscious recently about gaining some weight and decided to psyche myself completely out this week by reading articles on how overweight people have a challenge getting hired!

    I think, fortunately, I’ve had enough time to also realize that thinking all that is not at all productive and will only hurt me, so I’m trying to spend the weekend on good thoughts! Getting my brows done tomorrow and got an awesome new suit that fits really well! Would love positive thoughts!

    1. Erika*

      You’re going to rock it! It always helps me to remember that I’m interviewing them too, and maybe they aren’t the right fit for you.

      Be awesome. :)

    2. Trixie*

      Groomed eyebrows are such a treat, and do so much for that confident, polished look along with a properly-fitted suit. There is so much to be said for simply being confident in yourself, your own space and abilities. That’s the kind of person I want to work with. Keep us posted!

  137. Fiona*

    For anyone who recalls the online vision test discussed a couple of weeks ago – I think it was in an open thread? – where you have to put the blocks in the correct color order to form a gradient…well, , there’s a phone/tablet puzzle game that does the same thing. It’s called Blendoku and if you think if you think those kinds of tests are fun, you will be instantly addicted.

    1. Jen RO*

      Thank you! That gradient test was really fun. (Even more fun was seeing how much my boyfriend sucked at it.)

  138. Seattle Writer Girl*

    So my boss refuses to give me a raise (even though I am $30k underpaid), tells me my work is fine but I need to “own my career” and write my own ticket there, but refuses to approve any of my project ideas. He also refuses to give me any suggestions or help on how to get promoted or a raise.

    Any suggestions on what I’m doing wrong? I feel like I’ve done everything he’s asked but I’m still not getting ahead. Am I missing something here?

    1. CTO*

      I think your boss is the problem, not you. You’ve tried several ways to progress and your boss has actively blocked them all. Alison has written a lot about how bad bosses aren’t going to change. Start looking elsewhere.

    2. Jubilance*

      I’d “own my career” by looking for a new job. Clearly he doesn’t want to reward you, and he wants to give you conflicting information that isn’t getting you to where you want to be. Be loyal to yourself first – if you can’t reach the level/salary you want at your current company, you owe it to yourself to look for new opportunities.

    3. JustKatie*

      You need to start looking for another job. If you’re truly $30k underpaid, you’ll find something new. And if your boss asks why you’re leaving, you can tell him you’re “owning your career” :).

    4. Graciosa*

      If I were in this situation, not only would I find a new job, I have to admit I would have some fun resigning. I would write a very professional letter of recommendation and present it – beaming happily – to my boss with effusive thanks for all he had done for me.

      “Thanks to you, I finally realized I need to own my career. I found this great opportunity at [X] where I will be making [Y/lots] more money and have a chance to [develop new skills / work on specific great project / really advance my career] and I owe it all to you! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the great coaching and advice you gave me. This is a huge step forward to me, and I owe it all to you!”

  139. Anon For This*

    I’m late to the party, but I’m hoping I get feedback because I really need some advice.

    I work on a small team. Last year, we were short-staffed and desperate, so we hired a new employee (Bob) with no experience. We’ve sent Bob to formal training twice, but he’s just not picking up the skills he needs to be in this position. When the manager attempted to put him on a performance improvement plan, Bob became irate and accused the manager of racism. (I heard all this through the wall when the employee started yelling.)

    Since then, Bob’s work ethic has further deteriorated. He has attendance issues and goes missing a lot during the day. This is directly affecting the other employees on the team, as we’re required to pick up the slack and fix his mistakes. Also, Bob shadows each of us on a rotating basis. He needs direct supervision at all times or he will goof off and make costly mistakes. Worse, Bob shuts down when he’s given any coaching or criticism – he goes silent, won’t make eye contact, starts breathing heavily, and will not resume work. If we press the issue at all, he accuses us of racism. As a group, we’ve gone to management about our concerns. We were told that Bob cannot be fired at this point due to his accusations of discrimination.

    I’m not in any position to tell management what to do. But I have serious concerns about continuing to work with Bob, especially when he keeps calling us racists. I feel like I can’t properly supervise Bob, can’t comment on his work, and can hardly talk to him at all because I’m afraid he’ll make more accusations. But unfortunately, this means that I’m treating Bob differently than I would another co-worker. I just don’t know what to do anymore….

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Is management (and are you) documenting all these interactions? Because they need to be. But no employee cannot be fired. I think you guys need legal advice. It sounds like Bob knows quite well that pulling the racism thing will make everyone scared to fire him. He’s manipulating everybody.

      1. Anon For This*

        Thanks for responding.

        I’ve been documenting the interactions I’ve witnessed or been a part of, and I’ve shared these with my manager. I’m sure sure what management is doing; I expect they’re building a case or something.

        Not only is working in this situation making me miserable, I’m also starting to worry about his defamation against me, and the potential for it to get outside the company.

    2. Erika*

      I would say you need to have a very candid talk with your manager about this. And they need to talk with a lawyer, stat. If all this has been well-documented, I can’t imagine that you guys would actually get into trouble for firing problem-child Bob, but what worries me is that it sounds like your managers are willing to be hamstrung by him.

      I really think you need to sit down with your manager (sans Bob) and explain just how difficult his continued presence and unwillingness to cooperate is making things for you.

      And possibly start a job search, too.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Thank you.

        Yes, I’ve had several talks with my manager. I know he’s been in communication with upper management, but I’m not sure if lawyers are involved or what.

        I’ve been working on my resume and touching base with references, just to be prepared.

    3. CTO*

      Yikes. Do you have an HR department, and if so, are they involved yet?

      I agree that you might want to start looking for another job if your management refuses to properly address this. Have you asked them explicitly for tools and guidance to continue working with Bob? What if you said something along the lines of, “When I ask Bob to do X (normal expected job task) he accuses me of being racist. That affects my ability to do my job in Y ways. How should I handle this in the future?”

      I once worked with someone who played the discrimination card to the point of filing a lawsuit (and, as it turns out, had done so at past jobs as well). They were still let go for cause (poor performance) within a pretty swift time frame. Our management handled it perfectly–sharing information with us on a need-to-know basis, being open when we had concerns, and protecting us from the worst of this other employee’s wrath, all while still being respectful and compassionate towards the troublesome employee. It’s possible to handle a situation like this well. It doesn’t sound like your management is equipped to do so. Is that indicative of how they usually handle other problems, as well?

      1. Anon For This*

        We’re a small company, so our “HR” is more about benefits than resolving employee issues.

        When I’ve asked my manager for advice, I’m told to act professionally, document everything, and involve the manager asap. The manager said he didn’t know what else he could do. Although he hasn’t said it aloud, I get the sense that my manager is LIVID that we’re all stuck in this situation.

      2. Anon For This*

        I forgot to answer your last question. Up until now, I’ve been happy with the way my company has handled problems and performance issues. That said, I don’t think we’ve ever had a problem like this. Small company with low turnover.

    4. fposte*

      Can you clarify the chain here? Does Bob report to you or to the manager he yelled at?

      Right now it sounds like you might have some supervision expectations without sufficient administrative backing for a difficult situation. If that’s true, I’d meet with whoever the yellee was and talk about how to proceed. However, it also sounds like your organization is just going to fervently hope Bob goes away, and if that’s what they’re choosing to do, you may need to prioritize damage control over management.

      And whatever you did for the hiring, don’t do that again. (Any chance references weren’t even checked?)

      1. Anon For This*

        Thanks for responding.

        Bob and I report to the same manager – the one he yelled at. However, that manager does not have a lot of technical experience. So Bob always shadows one of the regular team members (one of my co-workers or me). We’re the ones who are capable of checking his work, but none of us have any real management authority over him.

        For the hiring issue, this was a break in our normal procedures. We were short-handed at our busiest time of the year, in an area with one of the nation’s lowest unemployment rates. I know that Bob was referred to us by one of our biggest clients, but I’m honestly not sure about his other references. The company thought that we could pay for Bob’s initial training, start him on easy work, and see how it goes. Well… this is how it’s going.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, maybe they don’t want to try that method again.

          If you’re not supposed to manage him and his manager isn’t managing him, I think all you can really do here is damage control. Also, I’m not liking the notion that higher-ups have been talking to you all about whether Bob might be fired and why not–that’s kind of a whoopsie trifecta with the bad hiring and the bad management.

  140. LV*

    How often do you guys think it’s reasonable for parents of adult children to expect said children to visit?

    I’m asking because my mother’s making me feel really guilty for not visiting her often enough. The thing is, I live 3 hours away and don’t have a car. Taking the Greyhound bus is not *hugely* inconvenient or expensive, but it’s enough of a pain that I’m not inclined to do it more than once every six weeks or so. The last time I visited was for Christmas, and I was there for a full week. Every conversation with my mom for the past few weeks has involved a lot of complaints about how it’s been so long since I was there, and I’m equal parts fed up and guilty for feeling fed up.

    (She keeps asking WHY I want to spend weekends in my city, do I have any events to go to, etc. and it makes me feel like I need to make solid plans ahead of time to justify spending the weekend in the city where I actually live!)

    Also… I’ve lived in this city for 3 years and during that time, my mother has visited 3 times. And once was for my wedding, so it doesn’t really count. Every time I tell her she’s more than welcome to come visit ME for a change, she says that it would be too inconvenient… because she doesn’t drive and would have to take the bus!

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      Stop feeling guilty. You mother sounds a bit unreasonable if she’s expecting you to always be the one to visit, especially when she knows you don’t have a car.

      If you want, try inviting her to your city – and not just as a follow-up to her invitation to you. Maybe there’s a restaurant/show/shop you could suggest as a planned activity?

    3. Sascha*

      I’m sorry. I feel you. I don’t visit my parents or in-laws much more often than once every six weeks, and they both live about 20 minutes away from me.

      When I first got married (7 years ago on Monday – wooooo), my mom had a hard time letting me go and would pull the same guilt trips. I just had to keep repeating the same things to her – I am busy and I need alone time. You shouldn’t have to justify not wanting to spend the money and time to make a bus trip. Eventually I got that boundary set with her. I don’t know if you are in need of setting boundaries here but that’s just my experience.

      I like Ann O’Nemity’s suggestion of planning an actual activity instead of just asking her out. Would offering up something concrete like that entice her to come?

    4. Graciosa*

      Every six weeks!?! Wow.

      You might suggest that you alternate visits, which would let her set the frequency (if she comes only after six months of no visits, you owe her a visit six months – not six weeks – after hers).

      “It’s your turn to visit, Mom. You know I’d be happy to see you whenever you want to come.”
      “But it’s too inconvenient! I’d have to take the bus!”
      “I understand that it’s not the kind of thing you want to do every weekend. Whenever you do want to see me, just let me know and we’ll be happy to have you here.”
      “Why can’t you just come here?”
      “I did come there, and my willingness to make that trip is the reason we were able to see each other last time, but I can’t do this every weekend / every month / too often, so I think it’s best if we alternate trips so that we can still see each other regularly. Once you come to visit me, I’ll make the next trip to see you.”

      Actually, let me revise that. You do not suggest that you alternate visits, you inform her that you have decided to alternate visits. This is about setting boundaries, and the trick is to find a way to retrain your mother. You cannot reward any behavior that you don’t want to encourage (whining, tears, pouting, attempted guilt trips, etc.). You may need to disengage to short circuit this (the “I’m sorry you’re not up to discussing it / chatting right now. We can continue this when you’re more yourself – goodbye” response).

      No one can “make” you feel guilty but you – it’s a choice. You have to have the inner strength to choose not to respond to this type of attempted manipulation.

      If you try to start setting some boundaries with her, you can expect her to escalate the behaviors that have worked in the past – calling to complain more often, or bringing in other family members or whatever. You need to be prepared for this. As long as you keep rewarding this behavior, it will continue.

      The good news is that you live three hours away! You can control this much more easily – you have no obligation to talk on the phone as long as she wants (or be berated or whined at or anything else). You can hang up. You can turn the phone off. You can disengage. The calmer and more matter-of-fact you are about this, the more effective it will be.

      If you feel guilty about it, you may want to resort to sending her actual letters instead. It’s easier to manage this type of communication, and it can show that you still love her and want to share your life with her – just not by sitting on a bus for three hours each way on the weekend.

      Good luck.

    1. Stephanie*

      Blah, I find DST annoying just because where I live (Arizona) doesn’t observe it and I have to deal with lots of confusion.

      “Wait, it’s not 2 pm there? Aren’t you in MST?”
      “Well yes, but… Just give the appointment time in your time zone and I’ll extrapolate on my end.”

      1. Cath@VWXYNot?*

        Oh, like Saskatchewan. At least you have warmth and light down there already; if I lived in Saskatchewan right now (especially up north) I’d be changing my clocks this weekend whether the government observed DST or not.

        I do love the looooong hours of summer daylight at northern latitudes, but the dark winters are Not Fun.

        1. Colette*

          Ah, Saskatchewan, where the time stays the same and the TV schedules change. :)

          (I’m from Saskatchewan, and my family still lives there, which means that when I call them, the time difference will be different on Sunday than it is today.)

          1. Cath@VWXYNot?*

            Yes, my regular Sunday Skype with my parents back in the UK will be disrupted for a while too – they do change their clocks, but on a different date (of course, because otherwise it would be logical and convenient)

        2. Stephanie*

          Even weirder about Arizona and DST: there’s a “donut hole” in the NE part of the state that does observe it. The Navajo Indian Reservation observes it since its borders cross state lines. Within the Navajo reservation, there’s another reservation (I think it’s the Hopi) that doesn’t observe it since the entirety of that reservation lies within the state.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        Yay for that! I still can’t believe stupid Channel 5 cancelled it in the UK just for the sake of more reality tat.

        1. Laura*

          Love the username! The Wicked Witch of the West is coming! I loved how the last episode/mid season finaled ended – I was getting frustrated with the show, and it really improved the last few episodes in Wonderland. We get it an hour earlier here in Canada than they do in the US :)

    4. A Jane*

      True Detective! Also, have you seen the Joel McHale parody going around? It’s quite amusing

      1. Noelle*

        It was hilarious. Even though I like the show, I fully admit that I never know what the hell is going on.

  142. AnonForThis*

    My position is being eliminated and I am considering three potential internal moves.

    Option 1: The work would be a good bridge from what I’ve been doing to what I’d like to do more of. I don’t know the manager or other members of this team well.

    Option 2: A role that’s more operational than I would prefer (but senior level; like a COO for the team). But this is the team that I most want to be on. I LOVE the manager for this role, both as a person and as a manager. I really value his philosophy of management and the values he brings to work.

    Option 3: A promotion, and a stretch for me (both in terms of whether I would actually get the gig, and then the work itself). The work of this role is most exciting to me – shifting directly into the kind of work I want to be doing in the future, and taking on some big and exciting projects. I respect the manager in this role but am a bit intimidated by working for him: He’s exacting and highly focused on process and metrics, while I’m better at working in fluidity and solving problems as they come.

    How should I be thinking about these options?

    1. LMW*

      I’m a huge fan of pro-con list. And also of thinking about not only how much I’ll like that job, but what I’ll do after that job.

      Just a note for number 3: I’ve worked with bosses with different approaches from me and it’s worked really well in a few cases because 1) we acknowledged and celebrated our different working styles as something that rounded out our team, often made it easier to divide and conquer the workload, and gave us an advantage and 2) I gained new skills having to deliver things that might not be important to me in the way my boss wanted (metrics, for example. Often the metrics they find useful are not the same measurements I use to do my job, but it was really useful to learn what they need and how they want it delivered because I learned more about how my role feeds into the big picture for the company).
      Good luck! I hope you land something you enjoy.

  143. Audiophile*

    Here’s my quandary for the day: I filled out an online job application, which had additional questions (a haiku, two doodles) I left these all blank because I did not know what it was referencing and writing that repeatedly seemed redundant. I submitted my app and got an auto response about how that company wanted their app to be different and stand out. Anyway, I went directly to their website and they have a direct app there, though I still couldn’t find some of the things referenced. Should I submit an app from their website or write an email explaining why I didn’t submit doodles and a haiku? Or just leave it alone?

    1. Erika*

      I would just leave it alone. Better than looking disorganized by submitting twice or weird by emailing an explanation of why you didn’t include a haiku and two doodles (also, what?!).

      For the record, these people sound nuts.

      1. Audiophile*

        That is what I was thinking as I applied. But then again, I also saw a job posting this week where it asked why I was the best candidate, as a yes or no question.

    2. fposte*

      *Literally* a haiku and two doodles? I thought you were being fanciful. What the hell is wrong with people? Alternatively, what job is this for that requires day-long haiku and doodle creation?

      1. Audiophile*

        I wasn’t kidding. In fact, I just looked again. I still don’t get it.
        Then I went to the company’s site and found their terms, that said by submitting them, I allow them to use them across social media and sites, perpetually.

    4. Stephanie*

      Uggggh, you know what’s different and stands out to me as a jobseeker? A simple, non-buggy application.

  144. Erika*

    Head, meet desk.

    Extended an offer to a very promising candidate back in January. She’s several states away and we don’t start training generally until the end of March anyway. She had a series of questions, so we sent several emails back and forth. I told her that if she needed a few days to think about it, that was fine, and to let me know by the end of the week. At the middle of the following week, I still hadn’t heard from her, so I left a message on her cell phone. Finally, I sent her an email saying that I really needed a response within the next couple days or we would have to move on (this would be by Jan. 29).

    Cue the crickets.

    Now today, out of nowhere, I get this email from her about how excited she is to start work March 30.

    What is wrong with people?!

      1. Erika*

        Oh yeah, a month ago! Now she’s trying to argue with me about this over email. I finally said something to the effect of, “You have to understand that as an employer, I had to move on when I found you to be unresponsive.”

        I can’t help but think she was looking for a better position elsewhere, couldn’t find one, and hoped we would just…give it to her because she’s pretty or something? I don’t know.

        I’m just hoping she doesn’t show up here March 30.

        2. Yup*

          What was her argument? She’d sent a response that you never got, or something else? Because if she concedes that she never responded, there’s a certain chutzpah in sending the “See you on march 30th” email. I’d almost have to slow clap for that kind of brazenness.

    2. Sascha*

      Yikes. I’d say maybe the email didn’t go through or something, but clearly other emails did….also why is she trying to argue it? Like you’ll just create another position or fire the person you hired and give it to her? What’s done is done. However it happened, it’s over.

  145. Noelle*

    Rant time. I am so angry!

    I left my old job a couple months ago, and I had a bunch of projects that were done but my managers had sat on, sometimes for more than a year. Not great management there. Well, now that I’m gone, suddenly EVERYTHING I worked on is a huge priority and they are constantly asking me for my help with projects they couldn’t have cared less about while I was there.

    On the one hand I am glad that some of my stuff will actually be used (better late than never, right?). On the other hand, I am really annoyed that they waited until I was gone. I’m also annoyed because they aren’t just asking for help on my old projects, which isn’t very labor intensive because all my work was basically done. The people taking over my issues are also constantly calling me and asking me to basically do consulting work and make tough decisions for them. I’m trying to be nice, but I’ve been very clear that I have a new job now and am working on new things and I can’t continue to do my old job for them for free.

    Has anyone else been in a situation where you left, but the work follows you? I’ve avoided helping too much on things not directly related to projects I did, but maybe I should stop helping with all of it since they’re not getting the hint.

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      One particular piece of work that used to be dealt with by my old team has now been handed over to my new team, and it looks at the moment like I’ll be taking the lead on it since I’m the one who knows how to do it. Since it’s on an official basis rather than people bugging me for help, and I did need the work anyway, I don’t mind it though.

    2. H. Vane*

      You have two choices: politely shut them down and tell them you can’t help them since you’re no longer employed, but they can find your notes and files in X location, or else tell them you’d be happy to help, once they sign a contract stating that they’ll pay Y hourly consulting rate for your services (Y being at least double your current rate of pay). Just don’t work for free.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed. Anything more than a quick answer needs to be paid (or requested through your manager, if you moved internally).

    3. Jen RO*

      I left my previous job 6 months ago and I still help out from time to time. It’s not out of a sense of responsibility, but because I was friends with my coworkers and I know just how bad the situation is there (only one experienced person left on the team, and she’s the end of her rope).

  146. Anonymous*

    Oh gosh, I’m so late, but I have a resume format question. If you’ve worked in several positions in the same company, do you list them all in your resume?

    I’ve had four positions in 3 years, so it looks a little clunky to list them all, but they also show progressive growth.

    1. Leslie Yep*

      Yes, this is what I do:

      Stark & Sons, Winterfell, Westeros (bold)

      King in the North, March 2011-Present
      – accomplishments

      Lord of Winterfell, March 2010-March 2011
      – accomplishments

      Lordling of Winterfell, September 1985-March 2010
      – accomplishments

  147. Dustbunny*

    I was ill and took a sick day on Wednesday and I just heard second hand that my boss spent the day fretting that I was at an interview.

    I’m not sure whether I should speak to him about it- I’m not looking for a new job, but there’s a chance I might be in six months. I’ve been here a couple of years and recently learnt that I can’t get a promotion my boss was hoping to give me. So I could understand why he might think I was a bit fed up.

    I also wouldn’t use a sick day for an interview (as fortunately the person my boss confided in reassured him). Ugh.

    1. Graciosa*

      Why would you want to reassure your boss? You took a sick day because you were sick. There’s not much to discuss here – and I don’t think there’s any down side to letting your boss worry about retaining you.

  148. giginyc*

    HALP!
    Back in Oct I had an informational interview at ‘XYZ’ company. It took us 3 months to finally schedule/back and forth correspondence. She said she was sorry there weren’t any openings, but that since I’m interested in web/online angle for ‘XYZ’, she’d pass along my res to the web editor. After the info interview, I sent her a Thank You card. I haven’t heard anything back from her or corresponded with her since.

    I saw a job posting today for a position at the aforementioned company.

    Would it be out of term/bad taste to approach her now? At the time of the info interview, I was a full-time employee elsewhere and didn’t foresee quitting that job as soon as I did.

    1. giginyc*

      If so, how do you suggest I reach out? Email her w/ job post link and tell her I’m interested? I mean – more professionally than that, but in so many words. I don’t know if she has any direct influence on the position/hiring.

  149. Laura*

    Just had an impromptu phone interview, and I hate those! You know, where they call you out of the blue and ask you if they can ask you a few questions right at the very second. I know I should say no, but thinking on my feet is a weakness of mine, so I said yes. I did remember applying, but I couldn’t remember the specifics of the job (i hope they don’t expect me to!). I think I did ok, I’ll see by Monday, but those impromptu phone interviews are something I hate.

    1. kas*

      Had one last week and it was so awkward. I applied late last year and didn’t have time to jump on my laptop and bring up the job description that I saved.

      The interviewer was so dull and I had to ask him to expand on almost all of the questions because they were so broad. I’ve had impromptu phone interviews before that were fine and lead to jobs but this was just weird and around dinner time so I was annoyed that he didn’t schedule it.

  151. Jess*

    Is there any reason why hiding a current part-time job on an application might be bad? I wouldn’t normally, but I’m currently working in parochial type job, and the field I’m working in isn’t always known for its tolerance. Pretty sure that’s been covered here somewhere but I wasn’t finding it.

    1. Graciosa*

      The test is always whether this will add to your candidacy more than it detracts. Possible down sides to leaving it off could include gaps in your work history – which you could be asked about – but being unemployed may not be much of an issue in this environment if you believe including it is the higher risk.

      Sorry I can’t be more precise without more information – I hope that helps a little.

  152. Volunteer*

    I am having an issue at the place where I volunteer.

    We are pretty autonomous and unsupervised. There is a man that constantly brings up political things and draws others into a discussion. I don’t want to seem overly sensitive or bring anything up, but I think I might need to because I’m starting to consider dropping off the schedule because it gives me a lot of anxiety. I feel like I have to constantly try to deflect the conversation and it’s far more exhausting than the actual work.

    1. bev*

      Do you work in a small office? If you can’t work at a distance from him, changing your schedule might be the best option.

    2. Ollie*

      I assume that so far you’ve just deflected the political conversations nicely/gently/subtly? It might help to be more blunt with your deflecting, otherwise he’ll probably never realize you’re deflecting and will continue to bring politics up. Like, “I really don’t want to get into an argument about something so political here. Let’s talk about something else.” If he insists it’s okay, then keep repeating, “I’m really not into discussing politics. Let’s talk about [whatever].”

      Or just tell him what you said in your post if you can get him alone for a minute—if he’s reasonable, he’d be surprised/unhappy to find out that he was making someone uncomfortable and will dial back on the political topics. It’s totally reasonable to not want to have conversations that are making you feel anxious—you’re not being overly sensitive. If he makes a big deal out of it, then any awkwardness/unreasonableness is on him, not you.

      1. Anonymous*

        +1. People can be clueless much more than they are malicious.

        (On the other hand, independent of this jerk, it might be a good idea to work on why those kinds of discussions make you so anxious to begin with)

  153. RunGirlRun*

    Another career change question to throw out: any former teachers who’ve left K-12 education for something better? I’ve taught high school English for nearly 15 years, for several districts. The last few years, during the recession and massive RIFs, have been the toughest, with short-contract jobs and assignments with some of the meanest, most juvenile teenagers round. Although I still love several aspects of the job, K-12 education is also in a state of total mass chaos, which makes me want to bolt. Part of me still wants to stay in education somehow (and am willing to go back to school), but I’m also interested in possibly returning to the private sector; just not sure in what role.

    Just as long as the work environment is happily free from sophomores, SnapChat and female superdrama.

    1. Adjunction*

      Can’t guarantee any workplace will be free of sophomores (people who act that age anyway), drama regardless of gender, or SnapChat, but with an education degree, you might consider corporate training and possibly adjunct teaching at a local college (assuming you have at least a master’s degree). The adjunct teaching doesn’t make much money, but I’ve enjoyed it and it’s a way to teach that gives you more autonomy than the k-12 arena does.

  154. Cruciatus*

    Is there anyone who worked as an AA at a university/college and was able to work up to other positions? I”m sure it happens, I just want to to know if it’s likely to happen or if it’s risky to expect that. I work at a small medical college now and there isn’t room to grow. But now that my work experience is as an AA in a college, those are the jobs I tend to seek out. But I never thought I’d be an AA in the first place (though I like it much of the time, just certain things I dislike (but that’s true of anything, right?). I got this position at my current company after working in another department as an assistant. It was only the slightest move up, but it’s now about the highest I can move in the company). I may end up loving being an AA at other larger schools (especially ones that pay a living wage) but I’d still feel better knowing that, yeah, sure, after some time you might be given the chance to do something else. If you couldn’t tell, I may have some anxiety about my current job search!

  155. ThursdaysGeek*

    This is hard. For Lent, I’ve given up reading AAM comments at work, even when waiting on a long query (because I didn’t instantly get back to work when the query was done). So I only have a little bit of time on the weekends, and there’s such great content in the comments too! Plus, we’re losing an hour tonight, so it’s already time to quit for the evening. I already miss you all. (Sorry, let me rephrase that: I already miss all y’all!)

  156. kyal*

    I got called in to work 5 hours early today and then was told that I must take two forty-five minute lunches to avoid going into overtime. My shift only ended up being 12:07-9:52. So doesn’t that only require me to take one 30 minute lunch? Are they allowed to make me take two 45 minute lunches?

  157. Melissa*

    Seriously, where are all the jobs? I was laid off about two years ago, I’ve been temping but I cant find anything full time! I really feel all my temp assignments are hurting my chances of getting a great FT position. Help!

  158. Mena3019*

    So I was recently referred to a job position by a friend of mine. She asked me to email her boss my resume and gave me all the details, however I am a bit confused on how to address what could be my future employer. I know her name, lets just say it is Mary Smith, but how do I address her and what should I say? Should I assume that she is married and address her as Mrs. or Ms.? I of course would like to thank her in advanced for the opportunity for a position with her company but should I say anything else?

  159. Mike Anonymous*

    I accepted a position after receiving an offer letter stating my title which includes the name of my field, as well as the person I would report to which is the manager of said field. When I started the job, it was a totally different position and I reported to a different manager. The company hired 10 analysts including myself. The same thing happened to 3 out of the 10. I spoke to both managers about the matter and both said this is a good opportunity. I absolutely hate the job and this position is a demotion from what I was doing previously. I was hired under false pretenses and now I’m afraid that I messed up my resume as well as my career. I have been there for 1 1/2 months. I need advise on what to put on a resume or cover letter since I plan to look for a new position.

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