turning down an internal promotion, is this company stringing me along, and more

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Turning down an internal promotion

I have been with my company four years exactly. I am a senior admin to a VP and director supporting 40 people involved in more than the traditional admin duties. I applied for a pricing analyst role in the same department. After three months of interviewing, I was just told I got it. I received the offer letter. I spoke with my current boss and to-be-new boss saying this is great, but now I do not want the job and want to stay in my current job. I just do not feel that job is where I want to go long term. Is it too late to decline? Will I be blacklisted and lose respect and chances of raises or future promotions?

I only received the offer letter but have not signed anything saying I accept. There was only a verbal conversation. I said I think I will take it. But after thinking this over, I do not want to take it and want to stay where I am presently. I would still be working with these people… will they lose respect for me or feel I should not be given anything at all? I am fearful that by declining I am setting myself up for disaster. Is it too late? And what is the best most professional way to decline and a way that will not harm my current role and future chances of getting a raise and promotion?

Oooof, this is tricky. Rightly or wrongly, if you proactively apply for an internal promotion, it’s usually pretty much assumed that you want it and will take it if offered, as long as long as you can come to terms on salary and other details; they’ll assume that as an insider you know enough about the culture and the role that you wouldn’t be going after it if you didn’t really want it.

That doesn’t mean that you’re stuck taking this job, but it does mean that you should be prepared to talk about what changed your mind and how you see your future there. It’s possible that it will change the way you’re seen and/or what opportunities you’re offered there in the future, but it’s hard to say that for sure without knowing more about what your reasons are, and why things played out the way they did (i.e., why you didn’t realize you didn’t want the job until now).

2. Has this employer already hired someone for the job I interviewed for?

I applied for a position I thought I would be a great fit for, and after a very rocky phone screen with a recruiter, I somehow managed to snag an in-person interview.

Before my interview yesterday, I looked for the job description online and it was removed. This was my first red flag. When I walked into the lobby, there was an interviewee there with HR, discussing work hours, dress code, etc. Also a red flag, but I told myself that maybe the interviewee just ran over her time. I was scheduled to meet with a director first. When I walked in, he said he was really busy, asked if I had any questions, and so I asked some general questions about the position, and he told me the next person I talk to would know better about the day-to-day duties and that if I didn’t have any specific finance questions, I could sit on the couch outside his office and wait for HR to collect me. So I waited, and then went to the next interview with a different department VP. She was very pleasant, but again, didn’t really ask me any questions. She said “I assume you’re comfortable with numbers, based on your resume?” I said yes, explained my last role, and then we chatted. It was pleasant, but not at all like any job interview I’ve ever had. There was no HR portion, and this VP basically walked me to the elevator and told me where the parking lot is. Both people I talked to have been with this company for less than a year.

Are they just terrible interviewers, or is the job probably already filled? I do have to add that at one point during my talk with the VP, someone came by her office and looked through the window with questioning eyes, as in “how’s it going?” She said everyone is eager to fill this role and they’re hoping she does it quickly. I sent a follow-up email today to the VP expressing my excitement about the position. She replied, “It was great meeting you, thank you for coming in.” Ahh, I hate job hunting!

Well, I don’t think all of this is red-flaggy: The job description being taken down doesn’t necessarily mean anything; lots of companies take postings down once their application deadline is up and they’re not accepting new candidates. And I don’t have a problem with you spotting a previous candidate wrapping up their interview; that’s not outrageous or a sign of anything bad. The people you spoke with do sound like bad interviewers though. And sure, it’s possible that that’s because they’ve already picked a candidate for the job and were just going through the motions with you, but it’s also possible that they’re just bad interviewers. I think you’re reading into every small detail (like the person who looked in the window — there’s nothing to conclude from that); instead of trying to decipher all of this, I’d focus on figuring out if you’d even want the job if offered to you.

3. New company wants me to start earlier than I want to start

I’ve got a job offer from a new company, and they are requesting me to start one month earlier. The notice period in my current company is two months, but the new employer is asking me to serve one month notice and saying that they will buy me out for the second month. How can I politely tell them that i would like to stay and serve the two months notice to complete my job handover and responsibilities?

“My company requests two months notice from employers, and I’d like to comply, both in order to preserve a good relationship with them and because they’ve always treated me well.”

That said, for some roles (especially more junior ones), asking to push your start date to two months away can be a hard sell (at least in the U.S., where shorter notice periods are common). If it’s a deal-breaker for the new company, you’ll need to decide if it’s a deal-breaker for you.

4. Explaining why I’m not licensed yet

I’ve been working in Human Resources for almost two years now and am ready to take on more responsibility so I am actively job searching. A lot of the job advertisements I see are asking for the professional certification; I’ve never been licensed (as a certified HR professional) because the cost of the designation is about a month’s worth of my current salary. Part of the reason I want to move up is because I’m not being paid at market rate for my skills. It wouldn’t be an issue for others in my field, but I struggle just to get my groceries, so adding a licensing fee is too much for me, and it doesn’t benefit me in my current position.

How do I explain, in my cover letter or resume, that I am eligible to be licensed but have not due to cost considerations? Or should I not mention it at all? I’m not sure how to approach this.

Being eligible to be licensed isn’t at all the same thing as actually licensed (since you haven’t actually passed the certification exam), so I just wouldn’t mention it at all.

If you’re asked about it in an interview, you could say, “It’s not something that would be an advantage in my current position, but I’d like to take the exam in the future.”

5. Is this consulting company stringing me along?

Recently, I underwent a pretty extensive interview process with a consulting firm. They packed three interviews, as well as a “case study” which they asked me to produce for them, into less than a 10-day period. After I submitted the case study, I was told I would hear back from them “early next week.” I should mention that the case study made me uncomfortable, as I felt maybe they were using me for free work. They did also ask a lot of questions about my “connections” in the region in which they work.

Well, that was over three weeks ago. After about a week, I emailed my interviewer, who claimed that his CEO was still “deciding.” I never heard anything else. Then, this morning, my interviewer added me on LinkedIn. I find this bizarre and am not sure how to respond. Is this just further evidence that they are trying to milk me for my connections, or are they finally going to make me an offer?

I think your interpretation is off-base here. It’s not unusual for hiring decisions to take a lot longer than employers originally think they will; that’s very, very common. And it’s very common for consulting firms to use case studies as part of hiring assessments (they’re actually known for it), and it’s pretty rare for responses to those to be usable as actual work for the company, and even more rare that a company would actually use one that way. All in all, this sounds like a pretty typical hiring experience with nothing that should be raising alarms.

Adding you on LinkedIn doesn’t really indicate anything other than that your interviewer sometimes connects to job candidates on LinkedIn; some people do that. As for whether they’ll eventually make you an offer, there’s nothing here to indicate either way; in fact, there’s never anything that really tells you that, short of hearing the words “we’d like to offer you the job,” because you can never know what might be going on behind the scenes. It’s always safer to assume that there’s no offer until you actually receive one, regardless of what signs you think you might see in either direction.

{ 110 comments… read them below }

  1. charlotte

    I think OP 1 really needs to make a solid case on why he/she is rejecting the offer that she initially applied for. I don’t think anyone will lost respect for you because of the decision you chose to make. In the long run it’s better to stay at something you enjoy and lead you somewhere you want.

    OP2’s question is something quite frequent I saw on AAM. At the end of the day, there isn’t any sure way to tell what your interviewers are thinking. So, keep hunting for jobs until an offer comes along! ;) after an interview, you just need to move on because the ball is no longer in your court. All the best! I was in your situation a year ago as a fresh grad.

    1. MK

      I think a lot hinges on the culture. There are fields where being offered an internal promotion and turning it down to remain an admin will make people, well, maybe not lose respect for you, but dismiss you in the future as “always a secretary”. It might be prejudiced and unfair, but it happens.

      From a more rational point of view, there is the fact that the company might have been counting on the OP accepting the job and this might have affected their hiring process. They might feel that the OP has wasted their time, unless there is a very strong reason for why they no longer want the job or why they didn’t realise it sooner.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.

        Yeah, the OP likely cost at least a few people a bunch of time, and now here they are, back at square one or two with no one to fill that job.

        Honestly, I’d be pissed. Pissed in the banging my head sharply on the desk multi times way, not in the throw things and yell way. I’d be angry for 10 minutes then throw my hands in the air and say “People!” and move on to fixing the situation by finding somebody else for the job.

        Unless the OP gave a really good reason why things 3 months ago when she applied are different 3 months later, it would be hard for me to consider her candidacy for another internal move.

        OP, focus on that explanation. It’s likely the difference in how higher ups people view you next.

        oh and PS, if you are good at your current job, the people you work with daily are I’m sure happy that you aren’t moving on so, that’s a good thing.

        1. Cheesecake

          Judging on these “3 months”, i guess company went to search for an external candidate. Either because that is the policy or to make a case to give OP the role “well, we tried but did not find a better candidate”. In any case, they will be pretty pissed. Veeeeery pissed. And they will make a note to never consider OP for another move.

          If I were OP, i’d try the new job. Well, before i would do my homework, talk to pricing analysts, volunteer to help them, do some work shadowing – anything. I am not sure what OP actually did. But if she did not do any of that, yes, i’d try the job to at least have some evidence that i don’t want it because i suck at it. It is a risky move, but if you never try you never know.

          1. Laurel Gray

            I agree! If the OP has a rapport with the manager of the new position, I think she should ask about the possibility of a “trial” period – 90 days?. I think that way it will work out for both sides.

          2. PeculiarHR

            I work at a very large company and we don’t have a recruiting blacklist. You could decline 100 offers and the next recruiter would have no idea. The only way to really blacklist yourself is to work here and be involuntarily terminated.

            1. Cheesecake

              I also worked in a very large company, and yes, there was no official blacklist. But office politics knows no boundaries. I had a colleague who got a promotion and moved to another country. That was a big deal (this specific case, don’t want to elaborate too much) and a lot of people “up there” vouched for him. Fast-forward 6 months, stuff went wrong on that job. And all the doors were shut to the point that he had to leave. Obviously this story is not similar to OP’s. But my point is: you can of course decline offers, but declining career move offers after 3 months being on board with it without a very valid reason why will damage your future chances. People maybe don’t update official employee records with “declined the offer!” comments, but boy they talk!

          3. Sunflower

            I think OP should talk to her current boss before doing anything. Boss might be able to give more guidance. It could backfire on her if she takes the job and doesn’t enjoy it. Yes I would be pissed if I went through this whole process to have OP turn it down but I’d be even more pissed if a couple months into the job it ends up coming out that she didn’t want it in the first place. Talking to current boss could air out concerns and they can proceed how to go from there. He might be able to assist with the fallout should she decide to not take it or at least it would be out in the open that she might not be the best fit for the job.

            1. Cheesecake

              I actually said it bellow, just didn’t copy in this comment. I didn’t mean “just go for it”, i meant “make it happen that you try the job”…better with boss’s help.

          4. Artemesia

            I agree. Having applied for the position and wasted 3 mos of their time, I would think that all bridges would be well and truly burned at this business if you turned down the offer you applied for. You might have withdrawn before the offer was made as you learned more about the position, but not having been given the offer. The only way this might not be true is if some dramatic change in your own life made accepting it an issue. e.g. you are pregnant, or a child has just been diagnosed with something that will require enormous efforts of care, or you have been called on to take in an ailing elderly relatives. A huge personal change like this might make withdrawal plausible although it might still mean you get no more chances. But to apply, wait 3 mos for an offer and then turn it down is going to assure you don’t get considered again.

        2. PeculiarHR

          I think it depends on your company. My peer interviewed for a lateral move for a team that we work closely with and got a job offer. After going through the interview process and hearing more about the work and job function, she realized that her growth there was more limited. She ultimately declined and the other team moved on to the next candidate on the list. They might have been a little annoyed, but that is why it is good to have 2nd and 3rd hiring choices so the hiring is only delayed by a few days. My manager and senior manager were both happy she stayed, so there was no issue there.

      2. doreen

        There are different sorts of harm, though. If I turned down an internal promotion at my agency, there wouldn’t be any sort of fall out on a day-to-day basis. I wouldn’t be dismissed as ” just a ______” and no one would lose respect for me – but I would never be offered another promotion.

        1. fposte

          That’s what was concerning me–the OP talks about later promotion possibilities, but I think a lot of employers would be reluctant to offer her a promotion again unless there’s a specific reason (like a health or family thing) that’s come up since she applied and won’t be a factor in future.

      3. H

        Yes, my previous job was such that if you turned down a promotion, then you had missed your chance to be promoted again.

  2. Cheesecake

    OP 1: I have same question as Alison. Why did you realize you don’t want the job just now? I’d understand if you were rushed into the new job without time to think. But 3 months is more than enough. That will be your question #1 and you will have to give a really good reason. Did you do some “work shadowing” and check what your pricing analyst colleagues do daily? Is that the reason you don’t want the job? Without exact knowledge of what people in this job actually do, it is not right to immediately assume “oh, it is not for me”. If you are scared of the unknown, talk to the boss(es) and voice it. There is a chance they allow you to try the new job with a chance to return to the old one. It is a small chance, because again, you had 3 months to speak up. In terms of the future, you will not alienate people, but possibilities of getting another position not related to yours.

    OP5: you had 10 days to prepare a business case? My friend, who applied for consulting job, had 2 days for the first business case and an hour for the 2nd one. I’d say your interview was “mild” and not as excessive as you think. And if the interview process baffled you, i am not sure you will like the consulting job.

    1. ReanaZ

      Yeah, I’d look way more favorably on an employee who tried a new job and ended up asking to transition to something else than one who wasted 3 months of a job searching process actively seeking a role only to blow it off after an offer was made.

      I really hope OP1 comes back to give more context. But I would highly recommend someone in this situation speak to their boss (or the boss of the new department, or both) with a vibe of “I have some concerns about the role that have come up in the last few weeks, can we talk about them?’ not “I definitely don’t want this job.” even if the second is your ultimate aim.

    2. kalicat

      Hi, I am OP5. I meant I had the interviews and the case study all in the same ten-day period. The case study came at the end, and I had 24 hours to complete it.

      1. Cheesecake

        Hello OP5! I have friends who work in consulting (and because of what i hear, i don’t want to work there), so what AAM told you is spot on. This whole nerve draining interview process is what all of them do (also to give you a glimpse of what is awaited for you at actual job). So no, no red flags. I was only a little surprised they asked about your connections, but i am not sure what exact job you were applying for. Anyways, assuming you did not get a job and mentally moving on is the best advice here. Also because it usually takes enormous amount of time for a consultancy firm to have a final decision on your candidacy as there are so many parties involved, who travel constantly or are just too busy. You definitely can’t waste that time waiting. Good luck!

        1. Sarahnova

          Consulting is generally heavily relational. I think they just wanted to know whether you have networking skills and a good existing network. It sounds to me like a totally bog-standard consulting recruiting process. Are you already in consulting?

          1. Cheesecake

            Nope :) But i have friends in consulting and i am quite often contacted by the firms because i have all sorts of business transformation experience. I am honestly not very interested, i like working for one company rather than for multiple clients.

            What OP describes is indeed bog-standard consulting recruiting process.I guess i am more surprised about word “connections” because they usually ask about companies you work at or for and hands on experience rather than actual “network”. Maybe OP was recruited for a very senior/business development role? But again, i am mostly talking about big4 and known consulting companies. I am not familiar to how small ones operate (but i assume interview process will be very similar)

            1. CheeryO

              When I interviewed at a small (~100 people) consulting company, the CEO asked if I had any business connections in the area – and that was for an entry-level role! They were desperate for work, though. I assume that only a more senior person would need to be bringing in the bacon at larger firms.

        2. abby

          I am not surprised OP5 was asked about connections. I left the consulting world and have no desire to go back. At least in my former fields, consultants are expected to sell more than they ever used to, and even mid-level employees are often expected to bring business to the firm. So connections are a very big deal, at least in some consulting industries.

  3. Swedish Tekanna

    OP#1,

    When I read your letter I felt that some of it could have been written by me a while ago. I wonder if it is just the thought of a major change or a dose of imposter syndrome that is making you think twice now? Although only an organization of jerks would dismiss an EA to a VP (plus giving support to 40 other staff) as “just a secretary” no matter what the circumstances, you must have felt ready for a change of occupation/job title when you started the application and something must have made you go for that role in particular. So why not just take the plunge while you have the chance? It must have been something you wanted to do, and something your employers think you are capable of. You say it is not something you want to do long term, but why not work hard at it and see what happens? If all goes well you could look at it as a medium-term thing instead, then decide you either like it after all or see where it can take you next. Business, technology and opportunities are changing all the time in the 21st century so nobody can tell.

    But best of luck in whatever you decide. Being successful in your current role is awesome too.

    1. Dutch Thunder

      I wondered about this too. It would be interesting to hear from OP#1 about the reasons she is no longer interested in the job, and whether they are related to the work she’d be doing or perhaps an indication of cold feet.

    2. Nikki T

      This is also what I was wondering. It doesn’t have to be ‘long-term’, you don’t have to stay forever, but if you *want* to do the job, why not do it for a while? It may eventually lead to something you like better, and I doubt it could hurt.

      Best wishes to you.

      1. AnotherAlison

        I also agree with this. I’ve been with my company 10 years, and many admin assistants have moved to many other things successfully. Some tried one thing, and moved to another after a couple years, or back to their previous role. Why not try it and be sure? I was in a previous position for 6 years, and my manager and I agreed it was time to move on, but when I left, the line was “there’s always a place for you in this group.” You could be in a similar position.

        That said, it’s also totally possible that you might just be fantastic at administrative work. Personality-profile-wise, some people are off the charts good at admin work and love the juggle of supporting 40 people. Pricing analyst sounds like it’s probably much more of an individual contributor role with less administrative tasks, but that could lead down a path to project manager or something where your excellent admin skills would again be valuable. Good luck!

    3. Ama

      Yeah, I didn’t do it after being offered the job, but right before I went to the interview for my current position I freaked out and convinced myself that the job description (which seemed perfect for me) was really just code for the same drudgery I was currently doing and I was going to get there and discover it was really mostly a receptionist position (which I was trying to move away from). It had a lot more to do with how my then-current job handled my position then any actual red flags from the new employer — and really spoke to how badly they had destroyed my confidence.

      Thankfully, my boyfriend was able to talk me down and I got the job, which has been an even better fit for me then I’d hoped.

  4. Elkay

    OP #1 Without knowing exactly what’s caused your change of heart it’s difficult to suggest whether you’re doing the right thing but I’ve always found that when I get a new job offer I suddenly find that my current job isn’t that bad. For me it’s always fear of change. Are you worried that people who see you as successful and confident (because you rock your current role) will now think differently of you because you’re going into a role where you won’t know everything?

    OP#2 How do you know the person you saw was interviewing for the same job as you? Maybe they took the job description down because they have enough applicants for now.

    OP#4 Would your current employer not pick up the price of certification, even if it means agreeing to stay with them for a set period it might be worth it.

    1. vox de causa

      For #4, that’s what I was thinking as well. Is there a way to have them pay for your certification, or even part of the cost? The lack of that piece of paper might be part of what’s keeping you below market rate, if a lot of the jobs you’re looking at are asking for it.

      1. OP#4

        There’s a chance they would cover the cost but I don’t want to take too much if I’m going to be departing soon. On top of that, I had asked them to fund taking some extra courses to keep my skills fresh. They agreed to it but when I took the second course we got a company-wide notification that our talent department had run low on budget and nobody who had applied for funding would be receiving any (or, if you were, you were funded at 50% but you had to be a lucky one to get in that group).

        As for the lack of license meaning I’m not paid at market rate, unfortunately I’m federal so the pay structures are very rigid, having a license wouldn’t change my pay at all. The reason why I’m underpaid is because we have an inaccurate job description. I have pursued having it re-evaluated in the past but have been told by my manager “It’s been tried a million times before, it won’t happen”, so I’ve resigned myself to looking outside the company.

        I guess it’s all just a morale-killer so I haven’t asked for anything in awhile and am hesitant to start again.

        1. OP#4

          I should also mention, as Alison referred to it in her answer, that there has been a revamp of the certification in my region so as a practitioner I could be licensed now simply be paying the annual fee. I do not have to take the licensing exam unless I upgrade to the next level of certification. I’m on track to be able to write the exam in the next year, but if I paid a fee right now I could put the initials at the end of my name and be licensed.
          I have considered just sucking it up and paying the fee but we’re trying to buy a house this year and already cutting a lot of our unnecessary costs (this means lots of Kraft Dinner and ramen noodles for dinner) in the hopes we’ll be able to power-save our down payment. It just seems excessive and frivolous if I don’t end up finding another job prior to the renewal, and then I’ll be stuck with the renewal fee as well (as I’d hope new company would fund renewal, something I’d be negotiating with an offer).

          1. MACCT, SHRM-SCP, SPHR...cert cert cert

            I know how you feel!
            I work in HR & Accounting (1 of 3 qualified people in my whole state) and I recruit for Tech. I hear a lot of “we need this cert, that cert, this qualifications, that many years in x, y, z” that sometimes it feels like they’re asking me to find unicorns (in recruitment we actually call it “the purple squirrel”). Increasingly the certifications/acronyms are used in the hiring process because it’s an easy way to disqualify people. It’s a lot easier/less time consuming to say “hey look some acronyms, that must mean they know basic x, y, z” instead of interviewing and testing to see if candidates know x, y, z. Hiring managers are trying to short cut through a stack of resumes. It doesn’t mean people who don’t possess certs don’t know what they’re doing.
            I do need your clarification on “I could be licensed now simply be paying the annual fee” … does that mean you have a cert already (PHR) and wants to have another (SHRM-CP)? Because if that’s all that means, then you don’t need to pay for anything, as long as your SHRM membership is up to date.
            If you’re a member of SHRM, renew your membership and join a local HRMA chapter! That’s how real HR people find jobs, through networking with other people. My chapter has jobs announcement at the beginning of every luncheon. SHRM and some HRMA groups have online posting for job openings so having membership give you access to job listings not available to the public. You can bypass the cert issue and not having exactly matching qualifications through networking. There are tons of HR people in our HRMA group who don’t have certs, and they’re employed.

            Also I wanted to clarify: certification and licensing are 2 different things. A certification is usually achieved by passing a test. Licenses (such as license to practice law, or public accounting, etc.) are issued by each state within the US, based on certifications and various other factors such as a clean background check & prior job experience, etc.
            I’m studying for the CPA exam, which is both a certification and a license. You pass the certification, based on the AICPA. Then you have to get licensed in each state you practice doing public accounting and pay each state their licensing fee yearly. You can’t perform accounting for the public without a license, but if you work for a private company then all you need is the certification (not sure why you wouldn’t license if you have the cert already, but who knows).

          2. Not telling

            If paying the licensing fee gets you a better-paying job, you could not only recoup your expenses but be better on your way to your down payment for the house.

            It never hurts to ask if you can submit the fee as a reimbursable, but also be sure to ask if there are any stipulations. Many employers require that workers be employed for six months or a year after being compensated.

        2. Colette

          I think you can still ask whether they’d cover some portion of the licensing fee. The answer may be no, but that’s not worse than where you are now. You say you don’t want to take too much if you’re going to be departing soon, but it may take you a long time to find something else.

      2. KJR

        I passed the SPHR almost three years ago, my company paid the entire cost. I realize I am pretty lucky in this regard, but there is no way I could have paid the out of pocket on my own at the time. I believe most of the people in my prep class were also covered by their companies. It’s pretty common.

  5. Lily in NYC

    OP#1 – I was in this exact situation – an executive assistant offered a role as a marketing manager (which I campaigned for). All of a sudden my gut was ringing alarm bells not to take the promotion – I can’t really explain it but I just knew it was going to be a bad fit (I have reasons but don’t want to make this too long). I was brutally honest with the marketing director and told her exactly what I was feeling and she completely understood. I don’t regret it. This was 4 years ago and I am still very friendly with the marketing director and there’s been no fallout.
    I can see both sides though – and I’m sure there are places where it would be frowned upon, but I just wanted to let you know that it doesn’t always harm someone to turn down a promotion.

    1. some1

      I think you reiterated what Alison and the other commenters are saying with your experience — you were able to explain why the role wasn’t right for you without coming across as flaky or unaware. I think that’s key here.

    2. Sunflower

      I agree that it’s not the kiss of death to turn down a promotion but also that you’d need to give a strong case for why.

      I’m a little confused by OP if she has or has not talked to her boss about not wanting the position but if not, I strongly recommend she sits down with him to have a real talk before formally declining. Declining without talking to him is going to warrant a sit down anyway. Although it may not be apparent from the surface, maybe this job is a good stepping stone for where OP wants to go at some point or maybe it’s a terrible move. But the boss may be able to give some insight into this as well as assist in softening the blow if she does end up declining.

  6. Lily in NYC

    #5 – Consulting firms always give case studies during interviews. I’m trying to say this nicely, but no consulting firm worth it’s salt would use case studies to get “free work” from an unknown element (interviewee). It’s a weeding tool, and a good one. Also, the case study is usually culled from an internal project that’s no longer active.

    1. kalicat

      Thanks. I should have added that the “case study” was actually a free-form business plan in which I was asked to draft a proposal for a JV in one of the firm’s sectors of expertise “using existing connections.” They even went as far as to suggest that “If hired, the case study may serve as your first assignment.”

      / OP5

      1. Lily in NYC

        Oh dear. That could definitely be shady. We give case studies during the first interview, and they have 30 minutes to finish. The “who do you know” thing also gives me pause, but enough people here have given reasons why it might be ok. I guess keep your eyes open and follow your gut . Good luck!

      2. Sunflower

        Have you researched the company at all? Used your ‘connections’ to find out about them? I would start there, that will probably give you more info than trying to decipher their interview process.

  7. Oryx

    OP #1, without knowing why you changed your mind, it sounds like this is a much different role than you’ve been doing with and I’m curious if this is possibly just Impostor Syndrome where you feel a little nervous making a leap to something you are unfamiliar with and would prefer to stay where you are because it’s comfortable and you know what you’re doing.

  8. BRR

    For #2 and #5, we have visited this topic in a while but don’t read into things too much when job hunting (this bit of advice saved my sanity during my own job hunt).

    #5 This sounds like normal sample work. As for the timing you just don’t know. The CEO could still be deciding, they could have decided but the offer is being held up by bureaucracy and don’t want to tell you that you have an offer pending, you could be their second choice and they’re waiting to hear from their first, funding for the position could be held up, etc. Unless you’re on the other side you don’t know what is going on.

  9. The Cosmic Avenger

    OP#3, does your current company always gives people who are being downsized and/or laid off months of notice? Do you have a contract stating your required notice period? If you answered “no” to both of those questions, then it’s really your choice whether to give one or two months notice. If you’ve already given one month, that’s kind of awkward, but you could still change it, as there’s no actual requirement to give any notice, it’s just a courtesy, and two weeks is pretty standard. As Alison has said before, if your company is truly respectful and considerate and you trust your bosses, you might give notice as soon as your plans are finalized (accepting a firm offer), but that’s an exception, not the rule.

    1. BRR

      Yeah two months seems really long unless they’re pretty senior. It’s pushed beyond a professional courtesy and it certainly isn’t a courtesy to you. This also assumes you’re in the US.

        1. BRR

          How often do you reply with a follow up question when the LW emails you? I really hope this question also leads to online dating advice.

          1. Ask a Manager Post author

            Ha :)

            Generally only when I feel like the response will impact the gist of my answer or when I can’t give a good answer without knowing something more.

          1. ReanaZ

            Except she explicitly says the new company is willing to buy out her second month.

            I’m outside of the US now and my contract requires 1 month notice (this is standard in my currently country, although 2 isn’t totally unheard of, especially senior roles). I have to either serve out the notice period or pay out the notice period (i.e. the equivalent of my salary for the portion I don’t serve out). On the flip-side, they have to give me an equivalent notice period if they let me go (or fire me for anything other than gross incompetence) or pay me a lump sum of a month’s salary.

            In practice, it seems to be that companies almost always pay out the notice period when they let someone go, rather than asking them to work it. In smaller places or for critical roles, I’ve also seen kind of an informal mixed situation–“We’ll keep you on the payroll for the month rather than officially pay you out, and the general expectation is you’re available for questions and help with transition, but not keeping office hours or doing your normal load of work.” (Although maybe people work out their notice period more often and just no one announces the situation until the person is leaving? I can only think of one situation where I knew someone was being let go in a restructure, but they worked the whole month.)

            On the employee-leaving-voluntarily side, I’ve seen it all over the map. Most people work it out, because of the financial penalties of not doing it. But the new company buying out the notice period is not particularly rare, nor particularly thought poorly of. Some people also use their accumulated vacation payout to pay off part of the notice period. Also not particularly weird.
            Look, I think it would be thought poorly of if you quit tomorrow and gave zero notice and did no work on transition. But working half your contractual notice period and paying out the other half probably wouldn’t raise an eyebrow in any normal, non-toxic situation in my current country.

            I also suspect from your letter that one month is the standard notice in your country as well, even if you’re contractually obligated for two. (Your new company’s behavior makes me suspect this.) If this is the case, even if your old employer is pissed, I don’t think they’re going to be able to trash your reputation with “She worked one month of her notice period and wrapped up or transitioned all of her projects professionally! Then can you believe she PAID OUT THE SECOND MONTH, as she is legally entitled to do by her contract? I know we have a non-standard notice period, but how unprofessional!”

            A contracted notice is different than a voluntary notice period, because you have both the legal right to take either option (work or pay) and the legal responsibility to pick one of those options. So there’s less damage to your reputation when you chose not to work out your notice period, because future hiring employers have something other than your personal voluntary willingness to provide notice to ensure you manage your transition in a way that is positive for the organisation (i.e. the law).

            tl;dr–This is in my experience way less of a big deal and way less messy when there’s a contract then when there is not.

      1. INTP

        In the US it might be valid in some positions where it would really leave the employer in a bad place if you left before a replacement could be found, like a teacher. But I agree, we need to know the reason for the two month notice to suggest how OP should proceed. I’m guessing it involves a contract since they mentioned the new company “buying them out.”

    2. Eric

      If 2 months is a condition of receiving a pay out on vacation, or receiving a poor reference, etc, then the employee is between a rock and a hard place.

      2 months is ridiculously excessive.

        1. Leah

          I would love a two-month notice! Time to find and train a replacement, wrap up all loose ends, and get used to the change. Two weeks usually feels like there’s at least some scrambling involved for the job you’re leaving.

      1. UK HR Bod

        2-3 month notice is not unreasonable above certain salary levels in the UK – basically mid-level professionals. Employment law also provides a week’s notice per year of service to a maximum of 12 weeks. The plus side is that the employer has to give you this notice as well. Realistically, most organisations will negotiate.

        1. Mike C.

          Also, I’ve heard that in the UK employers have to pay out wages (maybe benefits as well?) while enforcing a non-compete/gardening leave clause. Is this true?

  10. The Cosmic Avenger

    OP#5, I find it bizarre that you find it bizarre. Receiving a request on LinkedIn means you either are still a viable candidate for the job and they are looking for more background, or at worst they are going with someone else but like you enough that they would consider hiring you in another capacity. I generally try not to read too much into other peoples’ actions, but why would anyone voluntarily add someone to their network if they didn’t like them? I mean, unless you’re family. :D

    1. BRR

      I agree that most people view connecting on LinkedIn positively. I swear there have been letters on here that go “Someone from the company connected to me on LinkedIn, do I have the job?” I also find it weird that people ask if they have a job offer. Like Alison will be able to crack a code all hiring managers know.

    2. Meg Murry

      Or it could also just meant that the interviewer accidentally hit the button on LinkedIn that says something like “connect with all my contacts” where it tries to connect with everyone in the interviewer’s email address book, or OP popped up as “do you know OP” and the interviewer accidentally hit connect. Or the interviewer is the kind of person who does try to connect on LinkedIn with every single person he has had any kind of business interaction with, not just people he knows well.

      I’ve accidentally hit the wrong button on my smartphone and had to quickly rescind a bunch of connections I didn’t mean to make – this kind of thing used to be more common at the beginning of Linked In, but its still not uncommon now.

      1. Not telling

        +1. Many people have their LI accounts set to automatically ‘connect with my contacts’ every time they log in to Linked In. Receiving an invitation doesn’t necessarily indicate an overt or thoughtful gesture from the hiring manager.

        Now, I did once receive a personal invitation from a hiring manager, which was also a response to my application–they had decided to hire a temp to fill the position but wanted to keep in touch for future opportunities. Obviously this was a personal invitation and not an automatic ‘connect with all my contacts’ action. But I still don’t have a job with them, so clearly even personal invitations are no indication of anything from a hiring manager!

    3. INTP

      Yeah, even recruiters-notorious for adding everyone possible on LinkedIn-usually aren’t going to extend an invite right before rejecting you. The last thing you want is to give a potentially disgruntled rejectee another way to contact you!

      1. Kalicat

        That’s exactly what ended up happening, though! They sent me the LinkedIn invite, and I got a rejection three days later.

        -OP5

  11. brightstar

    OP # 2 and #5, it’s can be very difficult to not read too much into every thing pertaining to an interview as a “sign” of whether or not you will get the job. But it really is better to try to just forget about it and keep applying to other positions until you do receive an offer.

    Being part of the hiring process for the first time was hugely illuminating for me. Usually ads are up during the time they are accepting applications, that’s a specific date range that doesn’t mean they’ve found anyone. And we wanted to make a quick decision after interviews but there was internal debate over candidates (we use a panel interview process) that took weeks. One person wanted one candidate while the other three, including myself, wanted a different candidate. Then there were talks of restructuring the section. So we had meetings about that. And this was during a time when no one was on vacation. And our conference/meeting room is all glass and lots of people walking by look in.

    As Alison has said repeatedly here and has been backed up by commenters, hiring takes a while and as a candidate you have no idea what’s going on within the company.

    Looking for signs can be a way to try to hedge your bets, but it can also make the already hard job seeking process even harder.

  12. AvonLady Barksdale

    OP #5: I’m curious as to why the questions about your connections raise red flags for you. In your position, I would use that as a bonus; most firms I know love getting connections, sure, but they wouldn’t jeopardize those connections by going around the connector, so playing up the fact that you have connections could work in your favor. I wouldn’t read the invitation to LinkedIn as an attempt to cull your network. It might be nothing more than an invitation, or it could even be an attempt to get a glimpse into exactly what your connections are– and that could push you in the direction of getting an offer.

  13. Joanna

    #3 Reading the advice, is there much difference with this then between the UK and US then?

    The reason I ask is that I’m in the UK and I wouldn’t say that I was senior in my role or in my pay (eqates to not much over $40K a year) but I have to give three months notice, and it’s a requirement for everyone in my pay band. My understanding is that having longer notice periods is a bit of an indication to a prospective employer that you have a pretty key role in your current firm, or at least you’re valued to some extent. I think it would put off some firms, sure, but if I were to say “I’m sorry but my current firm requires me to worke throguh my whole notice period” that wouldn’t be unreasonable.

    1. Cheesecake

      Where i live your notice period can be 6 months if you are a key employee director level, 3 months after one year with the company and a little less if you, say, were just over probation period. So anyone who could start “in 2 weeks” is a “fired” alert :) But US is US

    2. The Cosmic Avenger

      Welcome, Joanna, you must be new here. :D

      Yes, we’ve discussed this recently in the comments. Contracts are exceedingly rare in the US, most people, even well-compensated professionals, are working “at-will”, which basically means you can be fired for any reason at any time, as long as it’s not for a few specific reasons (discussing pay, organizing a union, being a member of a protected class, etc.). The only good thing about being “at-will” is that you can up and leave any time you like with no notice whatsoever, although two weeks notice is considered a professional courtesy.

      So my company has found work for people whose roles disappeared, kept paying people who had to be let go for a few weeks more while they looked for jobs either from their office or at home, things like that, so I would give as much notice as I could, but that’s only because my current company has earned my loyalty and respect.

      1. the gold digger

        At my old job, there was a guy who just didn’t come back after lunch. This was the place (the not-Sergio CEO who is not from Argentina) where the CEO refused to buy employee nameplates because it was too expensive. Hmm.

        1. Mike C.

          At my last terrible job, this would happen all the time. In fact, if you took a week vacation or more, folks would start asking you before if you were planning to come back. The weird thing was that the employer gave a ton of vacation out, so many times someone would quit in anger over something shitty the owner said, and then they would “come back” a few weeks later, having “taken a paid vacation” as if nothing had ever happened.

    3. Judy

      In the US, unless you are a top executive, two weeks is standard. Once you are high enough, you might get contractual terms that go with non compete agreements. At least in my experience, those are given in corporations to people with hundreds if not thousands of people working for them in the hierarchies.

      1. Zillah

        Or in certain professions – teaching generally includes a much longer notice period (on both sides) than two weeks.

    4. LBK

      Yes, there’s a huge difference in the US – standard notice period is 2 weeks, with a month being generally the max most companies are willing to wait. It would be tough to find somewhere that would be okay with waiting 3 months for you to start.

    5. Sunflower

      You would be surprised at the amount of people in the US who give notice at their job and are shown the door on the same day. I didn’t think it was terribly common but I’ve seen a fair amount of letters and comments on this site from people this happened to.

      I’m in the US and upon taking a job, I would not agree to anything more than a month’s notice and that is pushing it for me(I’m 4 years into prof. work). If you took a new job and agreed to give 3 months, you would be reducing your chances of securing a new job in the future tremendously.

      It would love for 3 months to be the standard. People have great difficulty finding jobs when they are trying to relocate and this would help out a lot.

      1. cuppa

        I’ve seen this a fair amount in sales jobs or when someone leaves to go work for a competitor. I was under the impression that for affected people, they understand that as a possibility and are usually prepared for it.

    6. Liz

      I used to live in the UK, and found 3 months was fairly common, so the standard 2 weeks here was a bit of a shock!

    7. HR Manager

      I am in the US but was the HR person for UK employees, and yes, it’s quite different not only from notice period and start dates (UK and much of Europe like to start new hires on the 1st of a month because of the common monthly pay cycles), but of course also employee relations and disciplinary processes. All our employees were required in their contracts to provide a 2 month notice period. There were occasions where this had to be broken, but it was understood this was an unusual ask and was not viewed favorably without a good reason.

      Showing someone who gives 2 month notice out the door can happen in the UK too, but then we would often give them the 2 months of pay in lieu of the proper notice period.

  14. Macedon

    #5. Depending on the company, three weeks are often barely enough time for a junior HR officer to get approval from a manager to get approval from admin to get approval from a PA to get approval from a hiring manager to get approval from a chief executive to start offering sparkling water, and not just coffee, to interviewees.

    Try not to read into the delay (though I understand a degree of frustration at HR not providing an updated timeline after a few weeks).

  15. grasshopper

    #2 Taking the job description down is pretty normal once the application deadline has passed. If I apply for a position, I make a copy of the posting and description in case I’m called for an interview. If you are looking for signs, it is better that the company is regularly updating their website rather than having old information sitting there long after the deadline has passed. In terms of the style of the interview, it could be that the interview you went to was intended to be more informal and a get-to-know-you for fit. As Alison said, there are no huge red flag signs.

    1. Sunflower

      I recently applied for a job that was forwarded to me by another person. The job posting was an emailHR as opposed to apply through site to posting. I couldn’t find the posting anywhere on online so figured it might be filled. I decided to apply anyway and they contacted me for an interview. So no it doesn’t mean the posting is filled at all!

    2. Stranger than fiction

      True but this did happen to me once and maybe like I did the Op got a gut feeling. In my case it felt like they were just going through the motions if not downright rushing through it and sure enough later that same afternoon they emailed me they were moving forward with another candidate

  16. AnotherHRPro

    OP #1: The reality is that backing out of this new job will probably hurt your reputation. Not necessarily in how people treat you in your job, but if and when you ever decide to apply to another internal position. And to be clear, you would be backing out of it, not just turning it down. You basically accepted the position by saying “I think I will take it” and I’m sure to the hiring manager believed that was an acceptance.

    I am not saying you should still go for the new job. Only you can decide that. One thing you really need to figure out is why you applied, went through an extensive interview process, accepted the position and only then started to think you may not want it. That is the real issue.

    If you decide you do not want the job and are willing to live with the possible reputational damage (i.e., being someone who does not know what they want to do and/or unable to commit to a new opportunity) you will need to be able to explain to both your boss and the hiring manager why exactly you have decided to back out of this opportunity.

    I really do encourage you think about were you want to go with your career and what development and experiences you need to achieve your aspirations. Good luck!

    1. Sunflower

      Yes to all of this. I would be most concerned with you saying ‘I will probably take it’ and then all of sudden having a strong statement of not wanting the job- it doesn’t seem like there is any ambivalance about whether you’d want the job or not.. That’s something the company might red flag you for and as AnotherHRPro stated, not saying you should take the job but realize it’s something that is definitely in the air there now. Did something go wrong between the verbal offer and the written offer? Was there something in there that you didn’t previously know about? Or were you just nervous and didn’t know how to declime so you said you’d ‘probably take it’

  17. AnotherHRPro

    #3: Asking to give 2 months notice is very odd. Even for senior level positions. I am not surprised that your new employer wants you to start sooner than that. Once they have selected a candidate and they have accepted they want to the person in the position ASAP. And from personal experience, I think it is always best to move on as quickly as possible. You also do not know how much leverage you have. If they have a close #2 candidate who will start sooner, they may withdrawal their offer and go with that person.

    1. Rachel

      As other people have said above, OP#3 is probably not in the US, which makes their notice period a lot more typical!

  18. CollegeAdmin

    …if you proactively apply for an internal promotion, it’s usually pretty much assumed that you want it and will take it if offered…

    Alison, a follow-up question to #1 (but I am not the OP):

    I’m currently a candidate for two internal positions at work, both in different departments (and different from my current department). The two departments I’m interviewing with don’t know about each other. If I’m offered both positions, I’ll obviously have to turn one down. (Also, I’m more interested in one than the other, but I didn’t find out about the second until after applying for the first.) Is my reputation in danger here?

    1. LBK

      I don’t see how it would be in danger any more than if you were applying for multiple external positions. Most hiring managers understand that people who are job hunting will be fielding a number of different opportunities, it’s pretty normal to lose a candidate because they got another offer.

        1. Cray

          Hi, a follow-up question on this. If I was offerred an internal position for which I verbally said yes, and then took another internal position later on, only to realize the first one was much better. I am kicking myself for doing this everyday but if I go back and say I want position 1 would it look really bad?

          I know it would but I can’t stand this new position. And I know the other one hasn’t been filled yet.

    2. Joey

      That actually helps your rep. It confirms that someone else within the company recognizes your potential. And it shows you’re committed to staying at that company at least for now.

    3. Swedish Tekanna

      For my penny’s worth, I should say it shows a loyalty to your organization or at least an intention to stay and grow there. Also, my experience is that HR departments have built-in radar and they would probably have flagged this up with you if there was a problem about it. I’d say go for it and decide from whatever offers are made.

    4. Kyrielle

      What they said, and also, you haven’t verbally accepted either yet – you’re pursuing them, but you haven’t said “yes, I’ll probably take this” (especially not to both of them), right? I think that makes a big difference between you and question #1. (Also, yay for multiple good opportunities!)

      1. CollegeAdmin

        I have not accepted either, but I was asked to apply/headhunted by the heads of the departments. The first department is not “officially” headhunting me, since they would have to tell my manager; they encouraged me to apply but are moving slowly. The second one is moving quickly and going through official channels – they spoke with my manager’s manager before talking to me. (Which is great, because I want the second one more.)

    5. Mephyle

      Should CollegeAdmin tell the two departments about each other proactively, or should she wait and only do so if necessary (like if she gets an offer from the one that interests her less)?

  19. AnotherHRPro

    #4: Having only 2 years of experience is the real problem that you are experiencing. Employers ask for a certification as it shows the candidates has specific broad HR knowledge. I find that once you have more experience, the certification is really not valuable. The reality is a junior HR person’s experience and knowledge can vary greatly depending on the organization they are coming from. Instead of focusing on having or not having a certification, showcase your knowledge and experience. That is what companies really want. The certification is just an easy way to verify that.

    Good luck!

    1. Joey

      thats true across the board though. im sure you’ve seen plenty of people who’ve been in their jobs for a long time yet don’t know crap. more experience just means you’ve been doing it longer. it doesn’t mean you actually gained more knowledge.

    2. Urban Dictionary

      I’m going to second AnotherHRPro. The certification is realistically not a make-or-break when I’m hiring HR people. It is when I’m hiring engineers (a PE) but that is because it comes with the ability to stamp drawings that will be accepted by DOTs, Railroads, etc. The HR certifications do not give you additional abilities or authorities. It shows that you studied and passed an exam and can certify that you have x years of experience or y years of experience plus education. I would focus more on strengthening your resume and cover letter and not worry about the certification aspect.

      1. OP#4

        Thanks to you and AnotherHRPro. I have been working on that, taking lots of workshops and attending any relevant courses on the side (on top of my classes in HR at a local college which are on the side and paid out-of-pocket as well). I’ve also let my higher ups know (and my manager has backed me and forwarded it to other contacts in corporate) that I’m willing to take on any extra projects or be part of a team to revamp any of our processes, as our HR department does that a lot. I’ve presented a few ideas to my manager and with her support I’ve done a few extra tasks – like leading presentations or facilitating manager training.

        I think I have built up a pretty good resume but, of course, it’s an ongoing process. It’s hard because our unemployment rate is quite high so finding opportunities is a difficult task. I’ve had a few calls but hopefully something meaningful will come up soon.

  20. Joey

    Wow three months of interviewing and now that the recruiting process is nearly over you’re ready to back out.

    Unless there’s some life situation where it’s impossible for you to work the hours or do the job Id see you as either afraid to fail or wishy washy.

    If you would have withdrawn a lot earlier it would have been different.

    Decline if you wish, but don’t be surprised if they dismiss you the next time you apply for a promotion.

  21. C Average

    I’m just one data point, but I turned down an opportunity for an internal promotion several years back (because I feared I wasn’t smart or experienced enough to do the job) and I regret it Every. Single. Day.

    I’ve watched the person who got that job make exactly the kind of beginner mistakes I would’ve made, and guess what? He was forgiven and coached, and he got better at the job, just like I would have.

    And I’ve sensed the subtle change in the way people view me. They’ve concluded (perhaps fairly) that I’m not ambitious, that I fear rather than embrace challenge, that I’m complacent where I am. Who knows how many opportunities that’s cost me?

    Think about this really hard, OP. This kind of thing doesn’t come with an undo button.

    1. Kyrielle

      And sometimes it’s still worth it – though the one I turned down, sought me out, I didn’t seek it out. I was very clear when I turned it down, too, that it was because I wanted to advance along the technical track, not into a management role. (And, to be frank, especially not that management role.)

  22. HR Manager

    OP#1 – I agree that it all depends on the reasoning you provide. I would encourage you to think this through carefully and make sure you do have sound reasons, because it could come back to bite you. If you just had a ‘changed my mind’ moment, this could signal to HR and the hiring manager that you are flaky and might be pursuing other opportunities on a whim, rather than a serious effort to move your career forward in a strategic way. There is an assumption that if you are internal, you have the means and the opportunity to learn about the new role and would know exactly what you’re getting into should you be offered the job, and so having an internal offer progress this far without citing any prior concerns could be red-flag worthy. I would just make sure you have your reasons in good order to prepare for that conversation.

    OP#4 – Are you in the US? There’s not many corporate HR roles that I know of that require licensing (maybe you mean certification?). Many orgs ask for certifications, but I have found there are plenty of people who are happy to take experience over a cert. I’m not certified and when I’ve inquired of colleagues who have gone through the PHR, most tell me it’s a mixed bag on whether it’s worth the time and money. There are some specializations that are truly worth a designation or certification (i.e, training, compensation, benefits, payroll) to note your expertise in that area, but broad HR certifications don’t seem to carry much weight in my region and industries.

    1. OP#4

      Hi HR Manager,
      Yes – I do mean certification. I’ve been using the terms interchangeably. I’m in Canada. Most of the job opportunities I see ask for the certification or, at minimum, say it’s an asset. My organization, however, is very nonchalant about it and it was never a consideration in my hiring.
      Since I’m fairly new to the field (2 years), I think it would help. I also have quite a bit of education but it is only loosely linked (BA with a sociology major and an unrelated college diploma) – I’m currently taking part-time courses in Business Admin with an HR focus to get that edge.

      1. HR Manager

        Do you know what you want to do in HR? I have found MBAs and business degrees vastly more helpful for HR professionals than broad HR certifications. Perhaps there is a slight difference in Canada. It’s not unusual to find PHR or a similar designation listed as desirable in the US too, but I have never found my lack of this limiting my opportunities. Most of my more seasoned colleagues or peer HR professionals who’ve been great to work with don’t have a cert either.

        1. OP#4

          I’m not sure – I’m working on narrowing it down. My ideal career path would be going to law school and specializing in labour relations, but unfortunately Canadian post-secondary institutions haven’t caught up to things like online part-time course work for their law schools, so it’s not a reality for me while I’m working full-time. There is a timing issue, with working FT, but also a funding issue as I’m paying for any additional education out-of-pocket and my pay is pretty measly (and I’m trying to save for a house with my spouse who isn’t bringing home much bacon either).
          The issue really could be with my inexperience. Especially considering the limited opportunities available. I live in a fairly rural area and I’m applying to positions within a two-hour drive (the nearest city centre) because in my immediate area I might see one HR posting every 6 months. The only opportunity within 30 minutes from home would be to take my manager’s job, once she retires, but that’s a chance that I’ll have to take 5 or more years waiting for and wouldn’t be worth it if I’m not the successful applicant.

  23. Stranger than fiction

    Op5 just wanted to add that companies using your case study is t all that uncommon my boyfriend’s last two jobs did just that. But of course he got the positions but both times he was surprised to find out they had already implemented whatever he had done by the time he started!

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