open thread – March 27, 2015

by Alison Green on March 27, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,556 comments }

{ 1,556 comments… read them below }

  1. Tigress*

    Everyone, I’m a little frustrated and I need your help to understand if I’m crazy or not. In the last month, no fewer than three different teachers (one of which is the director of the program) in my grad program have recommended and encouraged the students to make infographic resumes for their job hunt this summer. The director even posted examples for people to look at. I’ve tried to say that this is a bad idea, that the resume is not the right document for showing off your graphic design skills, and that the infographic thing will work against a job candidate – but everyone just thinks I*m being “old-fashioned.” One of my professors raved about a former student who had made her infographic look like a page from Amazon.com and the employer could “buy” the job candidate. I think it sounds awful. Please tell me I’m not crazy! Do employers actually like getting infographic resumes?!

    1. Joey*

      Cheesy. Dont take job hunting advice from someone who is in a field that has some of the weirdest hiring practices?

      1. Tigress*

        No, and that’s the thing! Everyone seems to focus on how cool and creative is is, but no one can really tell me if it works.

        I feel there are so many stories of people who tried out some weird trick and got lucky and got a job from it, but few stories of all the people who missed out on jobs because they went the gimmick route. This makes many of my fellow student friends think that a “creative” approach is the way to go.

        I wish there were more stories floating around about how candidates were passed over because they went TOO creative. Alison is certainly doing her part in sharing some of the readers’ good stories, I’m sure we can all think of a few…

        1. Ezri*

          I’m a programmers with UI / design / art background, and at one interview the interviewer actually commented on how plain my resume is compared to the typical ‘artistic’ candidate. I got that job, and others, with that style of resume – I like flash and creativity, but you just don’t need it on a resume.

          2. Anondesigner*

            Yeah, I’m also a designer, and other than my logo being up at the top, my resume is also pretty plain. Worked to my advantage when I made a move into a new field that didn’t directly have design as the task.

        2. AMT*

          I’ll be involved in hiring M.S.W. interns this fall and I can say that if I got an infographic resume, I would question the candidate’s judgment. They tend to obstruct rather than convey information, and since written work is a large part of what interns would be doing, this would give me serious doubts about their writing and communications skills.

        3. ECH*

          Tigress, if all of your classmates use this weird format and yours is normal, maybe you will get the job.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I hire several graduate students a year and I would not interview an infographic resume. It’s not appropriate for my field at all (education) and it sounds gimmicky. I would be interested to know if there is a field that responds to this type of resume.

      1. Lizzie*

        Someone in my grad program (in education) last year did his/her entire teaching portfolio in infographics. It was really obvious the entire time s/he was presenting it that our academic advisor and the university internship supervisor were trying to restrain themselves from jumping up and screaming “Noooooooo!!!” I mean, it looked snazzy, but it was also really, really difficult to read.

    5. GOG11*

      I would think this type of thing would fall into the gimmick category. Let your qualifications and achievements speak for themselves instead of relying on a hokey thing like this to get attention from hiring managers.

      2. C Average*

        The green background. The ponies. The third-person narrative.

        Honestly, I’m surprised the text wasn’t written in rhyme.

        I just have no words.

        1. OhNo*

          I’m mostly just cringing every time he refers to himself (or others) as “ponies”. Also that is way more exclamation points than I’m comfortable with.

        3. Creag an Tuire*

          On the plus side, my daughter would hire this guy on the spot.

          On the minus side, my daughter is 3, and can only pay in hugs and imaginary cupcakes.

            1. Mallory Janis Ian*

              Ha. With real cupcakes, she could even hire the illustrious Jamie, if I have correctly interpreted some of Jamie’s comments re: her love of sweet baked goods :-)

      3. Dynamic Beige*

        The horror… and he used Hobo

        I wonder if he got sued for trademark infringement as I doubt he paid to be allowed to use these characters in any fashion, let alone the logos. Oh, the teams of attack lawyers!

      4. Short and Stout*

        Can you print out the article Alison linked to and, you know, casually leave it in that book?

        1. ella*

          Ha! Unfortunately, I don’t think it would stay put for very long. And I’m sure the district has multiple copies.

          I would be really happy if I could convince my bosses to weed out job hunting books that were published in 2003, but, alas…

    7. Sascha*

      You’re not crazy. I’ve been working in higher education for 8 years, and to me this sounds like just another fad thing instructors get excited about. Higher ed tends to get excited about fads. It’s annoying but I’d just brush it off. If any of them make you turn in one as an assignment, I’d just do it and then use your real resume everywhere else.

      1. C Average*

        This. It wouldn’t hurt to have the experience of creating an infographic version of your resume; knowing how to build a decent infographic is a good skill to have. So create one to make the teacher happy, but then create a normal resume to actually use in your job search.

        (The trouble with the infographic idea for an actual job search is that the hiring manager is trying to move through application materials in a systematic and efficient way, and having to deal with a non-standard resume is going to throw off that effort. By turning in something other than what was asked for, you’re being a pain in the ass, not creative. When your boss asks for a Word doc, you don’t give her a PowerPoint.)

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Unless their field is web design or communications (in a sector where infographics might be used a lot), this is a horrible idea. I would toss it right away if I got it for a position on my project.

      1. MsM*

        Agreed. And even in design, I think it’d be better to send a(n impeccably formatted) standard resume with a link to a portfolio that has the more creative stuff.

        1. infj*

          My coworker and I just had this discussion. We are in a design related field (more architecture than web design but still need graphic design skills). I’m in favor of the standard resume with an infographic resume included inside your portfolio (if you feel you want to use one).

        1. Felicia*

          No. That doesn’t change anything, In design and communications, infographic resumes are not a thing (i am in communications). We require a normal resume, and all other companies hiring for a design or communications position, require a normal resume. All your creative stuff goes in your portfolio.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          No. Please no.

          No no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

          I’ve barely recovered from the mess artists’ resumes were when Word Art and “oh look at all the fonts you can get out of a computer USE THEM ALL” became a thing.

          1. Cath in Canada*

            Off-topic, but there’s a contestant called Joaquin on the current season of Survivor. When he got voted out this week by people writing his name down, there were four different spellings of his name, but not one of them was Wakeen. I was so disappointed!

              1. Cath in Canada*

                LOL, Rodney is a doofus. I hope whatshername and Joe and Mike and that other white collar guy form a new alliance to get rid of Rodney and the older misogynistic guy

                (names are not my forte)

                1. Mallory Janis Ian*

                  Ha. My husband and I have entire conversations about our TV shows where we call characters nothing more descriptive than “that one guy” and “that other guy”, and we know what we mean :-) Names are not our forte, either.

      3. Ezri*

        Even if the field is web design – part of good design is making pertinent information as easy to access as possible for your viewer. I’ve seen plenty of infographic resume examples that are harder to read.

      4. Felicia*

        I am in communications and have been involved in hiring for design, and this is a horrible idea in these fields as well.

    9. cardiganed librarian*

      You know what would really make your resume stand out and show that you’re up to speed with cutting-edge trends? A word cloud!

        1. fposte*

          Heh. I just made my first one last year, but just for background when I had to yap for a long time. I was hoping maybe they were old enough to be retro now.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Heh, I dig word clouds.

          If I got a resume with a word cloud, I’d do this:

          “Oh, look at that. That’s pretty cheesy and old. A word cloud.”

          and then I’ d read every word, compare the sizes of the words, chuckle, find cool words I liked, and probably waste 15 minutes because, I dig word clouds, and then recommend we phone interview the person if she had at least the minimal anything we are looking for.

          Word geek. Don’t try this on a random hiring manager.

      3. So Very Anonymous*

        I still see these in library presentations. I keep wondering when they will die out.

        1. cardiganed librarian*

          So true! Librarians LOVE the things. (They also love to keep calm and ___.)

    10. Not Good At These*

      I’m no expert, but this sounds like a gimmick. Employers can have to sort through hundreds of resumes for each job posting, so coming across one that requires extra time to examine might be off-putting. There is the chance that an employer will really like it because it is so unique, but you might want to consider if *you* want to work for that employer.

      My colleague, who is our hiring and recruiting expert, has just advised me that a clean, clear, skimmable document is really the ideal. If you work in a creative field it might be different, but most recruiters want a document that doesn’t require ten minutes to interpret. Plus, you should have a portfolio to showcase your skills anyway.

      Reading your comment made me wonder if the former student was hired based on her infographic resume. It might have been a nifty design and well-executed, but what’s the point if it didn’t help her get hired? Perhaps that’s a question for your professor. ;)

      2. Michele*

        A skimmable document-yes! So few people understand that. Give me something easy to read and pull information from.

        1. Artemesia*

          This a thousand times. The last time I was hiring, we had several hundred applicants. I knew what I was looking for on the initial pass where I weeded out about 65% of the resumes before I and my committee then seriously reviewed the top 35% on our way to 10 to discuss, on our way to 6 to phone screen, on our way to 3 to bring in for interviews. A junky resume that I cannot quickly grasp to see if the person is a plausible candidate is going in the bottom 65%. I got several ‘creative’ resumes — each one shouted squirrel to me. Of course my creative resumes were really awful —

    11. Cordelia Naismith*

      Are you studying graphic design? Because that’s the only way I can think this might be appropriate. Otherwise, no, don’t do that.

    12. INTP*

      If you absolutely cannot convince them that the infographics aren’t a good idea, maybe they could be convinced that they should also attach a conventional resume “Just in case the hiring manager is old fashioned?”

      I’m not sure about hiring managers in graphic design fields but recruiters want a resume where they can find the relevant information to determine whether your resume is worth actually reading or is an instant discard within a few seconds. That means the titles and dates of your most recent positions should be very easy to scan to, as well as school and degree name as these are internship seekers and new grads. That’s usually pretty easy with proper use of indentation and bolding on a Word doc but not so much on an infographic. If they’re tossing most of the resumes within 5 seconds and yours takes 30 seconds to find the right parts to even determine if it warrants a thorough reading, that might not work well for you.

      1. Marcy*

        I’m thinking the other students will be competing with Tigress for jobs soon. Let them use their infographic resumes. Let the competition eliminate themselves!

    14. Melissa*

      This may vary a bit depending on how much non-academic experience the professors in your program have, but in my experience professors usually have very little to no non-academic experience and are mostly to completely unhelpful when it comes to applying to non-academic jobs. In fact, many of them aren’t even very helpful when applying to *academic* jobs.

    15. cuppa*

      I’m fully aware of what an infographic resume is, but if I got one, a “WTF is this?” would definitely cross my lips.

    16. thisisit*

      thanks for posting this! I am assisting some people in my network fill some positions at their amazing org. One of the openings is for an associate comms director. A friend of mine forward me her friend’s resume, and it was this weird infographic-like document with, like, clipart, and other distracting things. I did due diligence and read through it all carefully, and actually she has great experience and could be a good candidate. But I can’t get past the resume. But then I thought, it’s a comms position, so maybe it’s ok?

      But I want to email her back and ask her to send me a standard CV to forward along. Should I say why? Express caution for the gimmicky-type CV? Or just ask for it as an addition?

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Be direct; you’ll be doing her a favor. “This kind of resume format really won’t go over well here or with most people in our field. Can you let her know that and tell her she needs to send over a standard resume instead?”

    17. Swarley*

      I don’t like this idea. You might catch a hiring manager’s eye, but the type of person who would respond positively to this is someone who values flash over substance. Not a manager I’d want to work for.

    18. Austinite Product Manager*

      Tigress, use this opportunity to practice thinking for yourself, and not getting frustrated if people see things differently.

      It’s not your job to convince the other students or even teachers that this is a bad idea–you can ask questions and share your opinion with people who ask for it, but otherwise, just shrug your shoulders and continue on the own path.

      That’s how I built a successful career, ignoring people who said my methods were “old fashioned”. The thing is, you’d probably not want to work for an employer who preferred a resume in form of infographic that looks like a page from amazon.com anyway, so it’s a great way to self-select out of the process with companies that would consider these weird methods to call attention to their resume a good idea.

      You’ve proven that you’re capable of thinking for yourself; in the future, just ignore when someone suggest one of these gimmicks to stand out from the crowd, stick to your guts, and you’ll do fine in your job search :-).

  2. TotesMaGoats*

    I had a phone interview yesterday and ROCKED IT! I’ve never felt so confident in an interview before. I’m hoping to hear back from two other places that I applied soon. I know they are in the application review stage. As I mentioned, negotiation isn’t something that is normally done at my level/in my field. But if we get to the offer stage, how would you phrase the question to find out if that’s an option?

    And fingers crossed for my sister who is one of two final candidates for a position but they’ve already gone a week over when they said they’d get back to her.

    1. Dang*

      Great news! Good luck with the job hunting.

      I’d wait and see about the negotiation. I don’t think it’s necessary to negotiate just to say you negotiated. It’s likely that salary will come up before an offer and you can assess from there, or give your appropriate range if it’s much different.

    2. GOG11*

      Congratulations! And best of luck to you and your sister!

      Are you worried that you won’t be given a fair offer the first time around? Are the reasons for not negotiating legitimate ones (i.e., that the offers are usually generous or fair and it’s entry level so the candidate would have little to base a counter offer on?)?

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Yay! Good luck to both of you!

      I’d say if you are willing to take the position at the offered salary/wage but don’t want to be lowballed, I’d ask something like “Is there any flexibility with salary or benefits?”, so it sounds more like an open-ended question instead of a negotiation. As we saw recently, negotiations aren’t always welcomed.

      3. puddin*

        Sorry to be a debbie downer on this…but your question is not open ended. The hiring manager can answer,”No.” and that leaves the conversation at a dead stop. Any question that can be answered with a Yes or a No is closed.

        If you want to ask, I recommend this instead, “What flexibility is there with salary or benefits?”

        I do alot alot alot of negotiating, and the minute someone asks me a closed ended question, I know that they are not experienced negotiators and I can probably talk them out of what they are asking for.

        1. Artemesia*

          Really excellent point. The suggested phrasing requires a response that may come back to ‘no’ but at least invites something more complex — and it is good to throw benefits into the mix because lots of times there is the possibility of a creative way to sweeten the pot.

    5. puddin*

      Oh do not ask if the offer is open to negotiation – just negotiate, if you want to. If you feel the offer is unfair or less than what you expected build your case for why a higher salary is warranted. Your experience, the rigor of the job, a particular set of skills- skills you have acquired over a very long career, comparable salaries…

      After receiving the offer and asking for a day or two to weigh your options, here is how I would phrase the negotiation, “I am very excited to receive the job offer and I agree that this is a great opportunity for both Chocolate Teapots and me. With my specialization in bittersweet chocolate and the company’s reliance on strategic development in this role – which is my area of expertise – I think that a salary of $30 reflects what I bring to the table, the importance and structure of the role, and is more in line with the market research I have done. What are your thoughts?”

  3. Muriel Heslop*

    In my small department of all women, two of us have become the defacto birthday planners. No one offers to help, buy cards, etc. and despite requests for assistance, no one wants to help out. We are increasingly busy and the birthdays have become increasingly time consuming. Our old department admin helped out but our new one doesn’t want to do so. The next two birthdays are ours and we plan to just let the now-annoying birthday lunch do an Irish good-bye. Other suggestions?

    1. Lia*

      That is exactly what happened in my department, and tbh absolutely no one has complained about the lack of birthday celebrations. To be completely frank, I think birthday parties are great for kids, but don’t belong in the office.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I agree! There are a few people who seem to get weirdly excited about their birthdays which I totally don’t get. It’s a workplace!

        1. INTP*

          I have consciously avoided mentioning my birthday just to avoid the possibility that other people might make a deal of it, lol. If someone is really into birthdays, they can celebrate their own by bringing in cupcakes or something, but otherwise I think it’s fine to do nothing.

          1. Michele*

            I agree. There reaches a point as an adult, where if you want people at work to celebrate your birthday, you bring in donuts or such and call it good.

            1. Judy*

              I’ve never worked in a place that celebrated birthdays beyond the person bringing in treats, except one place did a bit of a pranking (photoshopped posters on entryways, bottle of prune juice on desk, and cane at desk) on birthdays with 0 on the end and another did one monthly cake for an entire division with the meeting notice stating who had birthdays that month.

            2. Ops Analyst*

              I have a few friends who plan birthday parties every year. Like going out to fancy dinners, having people over with catering, and actually having a cake, blowing out candles, and accepting birthday presents!! We are nearing our 40s. I will be happy to buy your child a birthday present but I’m not adding a real gift into my October budget for your birthday every year. I find it absolutely ridiculous. Even the fancy dinners rub me the wrong way because it’s really hard to say no when your best friend from childhood invites you out to celebrate her birthday, but I just don’t have it in my budget to go to a $40-$60 sushi dinner and then also split the cost of her meal.

              I haven’t had a birthday celebration beyond a gathering with immediate family since I turned 30. I might do another when I turn 40. I think it’s one thing to do big milestone birthdays, but every year?

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I do the same thing. If other people would like something for their birthday, I do not mind. But I enjoy a quiet birthday.

      2. Lizzie*

        Totally agreed. In my workplace, staff birthdays are mentioned in the weekly information bulletins (which one can opt out of doing), and the boss sticks a “Happy birthday!” sign to your mailbox. That’s it. No food, no singing, no discomfort-inducing birthday traditions. I think it’s perfect.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      No, that’s exactly what I’d do. Is there someone saying you have to do birthday celebrations? Maybe I’m just anti-fun but I find them to be an annoyance, whether I’m helping to plan them or not. Another suggestion would be to just group birthdays together by a certain period of time (e.g. one celebration for everyone whose birthday falls in Q1, or January, or the first half of the year… or whatever)…. but I’m a fan of no birthday celebrations.

      1. Artemesia*

        It boils down to a couple of women being the organizers and thus in the role of office mom which does not enhance one’s professional reputation. I’d let it go.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      You could also just shrink what you do – for example, only do a communal card. Is there a way you could bring it up a meeting, where you could ask if either (a) people want to let it go or (b) ask who would like to be part of a rotation to keep it going?

    4. Khoots*

      We ended up putting ours to a vote during one of our staff meetings. It was presented as, “Hey X, Y, and Z always falls onto only Teagan and Sara. If we are going to keep doing this we’re going to need to set up a rotation on who’s in charge or we need to get rid of the birthday thing all together.”

        1. Khoots*

          That’s why you don’t want them to always have to be running the birthday celebrations! They want to do other things too!

        2. Noelle*

          My name is actually Tegan (I use my middle name here). Not only do I like Tegan & Sara, but now more people know how to pronounce my name!

      2. Sunflower*

        I’d vote something like this. I wouldn’t want the next person in the rotation to think you just forgot about them. Guaranteed NO ONE will want to keep the birthday thing going.

    5. Sarah Nicole*

      I posted this below as its own discussion, lol. Here is my reply!

      At my old job, my manager had a great idea. The last person to celebrate their birthday would plan the next person’s birthday! So I celebrated in December and the next person on our team had a February birthday. I got a card, passed it around, and brought in a dessert, and I definitely didn’t mind because I knew that would be the only time for me to do it for the year.

      I’ll also mention that this was not a full lunch. We had a meeting time blocked off for 30 minutes where surprised the person and all sat around talking and having dessert. Then we went back to our work. It was the best celebratory work situation I’ve ever seen. Maybe you guys can try this?

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Yeah, that would be fine, too. Either way, at least each person would only be responsible for one birthday a year. And it helps spread the “office housework” type of task to everyone on the team.

      2. Barbara*

        Honestly, I’d hate working in a place that did this. I’m not wild about having my birthday celebrated at the office, and I’m terrible at party planning. For me this would be an unpleasant chore with a lot of pressure to figure out something that wouldn’t disappoint the next birthday recipient, especially if the person before me was good at it and did something brilliant and elaborate (while my idea of a party is a cake and maybe a card).

        1. Ama*

          Yeah, I don’t like being fussed over on my birthday at the office — usually if I’m unable to take the day off it’s because I have too much work to do, so a party that requires my presence is just going to be more inconvenient. At my current office, the office manager keeps track of birthdays and then lets the people they work closest with know it’s coming up. Usually you get at least a card from the CEO and a small gift card to one of the lunch places around here (or Starbucks). This year, I also got an separate extra card from the two other people in my department. I think it hits a nice balance of recognizing the birthday without making too big a fuss.

        2. LizB*

          I would think that ideally, there would be a way to leave yourself out of the rotation. Someone must keep a master list of birthdays to know who should plan for whom, and in a perfect world you’d be able to say to that person, “Hey, I’m not a big birthday person, I’d prefer not to have mine celebrated or plan a celebration — can you just skip over me?” And then the person with the birthday before you can just plan the party for the person with the birthday after you, and you don’t have to deal with it!

          I don’t know if this is how it actually works at Sarah Nicole’s workplace, but I think that would be the best way to handle it.

          1. Sarah Nicole*

            Yes, exactly. I’m not saying everyone has to be celebrated. If I had told my manager that I didn’t want mine celebrated, it would have been perfectly fine. Besides, Muriel didn’t say anything about having issues with those who didn’t want to celebrate, just that the planning always fell to a couple of people. My suggestion is just a way to spread that chore around so that no one feels like they are the office party planner. By all means, if folks don’t want to celebrate their birthdays, I would never suggest making it mandatory.

          2. Anne*

            We have a birthday cake rotation that works similarly, you buy cake (no card, no party) for the person with the birthday after yours. If you want to be in the rotation you write your birthday on the wall calendar that we use for vacation planning, if you don’t put your birthday down you’re not expected to participate.

      3. Nanc*

        Yeah, I worked in an office where this was the practice. The problem: 1. I don’t celebrate my birthday, never wanted to as a kid and refused to do so as an adult except for having pizza and watching a baseball game (there’s almost always a game on my birthday!) and 2. the person with the birthday before mine was the second biggest asshat in the department and had I participated they would go out of their way to plan something that I would dislike. And had we done it so the next birthday was responsible, the biggest asshat in the department would have planned my party! Out of a department of 50 there were only two asshats . . .

        I lean towards a group card at most.

        1. Cherry Scary*

          We do something similar, but keep it to a card. Whoever’s birthday was last gets the card and passes it around for the next person. Individual supervisors have the option to do anything extra, and its usually at the discretion of the birthday-haver.

      4. Persephone Mulberry*

        I worked in an office that did this, except that the only requirement of the “planner” was to bring in a cake. No surprise, no balloons, no passing around a card, just ask the next person in line what kind of cake they like, and bring it in. The office would take a 15-20 minute “cake break” (NO SINGING), and that’s it.

        We never had anyone who didn’t want their birthday acknowledged, but if we did, I imagine they would just be exempt from the rotation.

      5. LQ*

        I would hate this. I would really want to opt out entirely. I don’t want to celebrate, I don’t want to plan. Just leave me out of it entirely. Ish.

      6. little Cindy Lou who*

        I worked at a place where we shared offices (2 to an office) and you and your office mate took care of getting a dessert and card for each other. Then a 15 minute hallway meeting where the team all got together to say happy birthday and have the dessert. quick, low fuss and nice.

        At my current place the CEO buys everyone a cake for their birthday.

    6. INTP*

      I think it’s fine to let it die out. People are probably not volunteering to help because they are not that invested in the birthday events, to be honest, and would rather allow them to die out than spend time helping.

    7. fposte*

      I hadn’t heard the phrase “Irish goodbye” before, but after confirming it means what I think it means, that’s what I’d vote for. It sounds like it’s swollen beyond reason.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        I never hear it either! I grew up and married Irish and I realize we do this all the time! :) I just didn’t know we had a name for it.

          1. SevenSixOne*

            I married a guy with an enormous extended family. Leaving his family’s parties is a massive ordeal that can easily take an hour (Bonus: There’s this weird standoff that happens 2-3 hours into any gathering, where everyone’s had enough but no one wants to be the first to leave, argh).

            We were together for almost a decade before he would even consider the Irish goodbye as an option. He still only does it about 20% of the time, but maybe in another decade or so I can get him up to 50%?

          1. fposte*

            That’s hilarious. I picture you slipping out silently then returning to say goodbye; slipping out silently again and then returning again.

      3. Cass*

        I come from a proud Irish family and I thought the concept was hysterical when I heard it – 0nly because it would be sacrilegious at our gatherings! It’s a whole song and dance to leave.

        1. Cass*

          I should add I explained it to my mother who was very offended and said NO Irish person she knows would do that. (….I wish I could sometimes ;)

    8. Retail Lifer*

      Our office admin takes care of cards and cake, but only for those of us she likes. My boss and I don’t get birthday celebrations, so I’m all for just eliminating them celebrations altogether. But I guess I’m a little biased.

    9. C Average*

      PLEASE let the birthdays do an Irish goodbye, and please (God, are you listening?) let the Irish goodbye happen to workplace birthday hoopla everywhere.

      There are a couple of people at my office who always try to arrange birthday stuff and always have trouble getting participation and help. The reason is simple: No one else cares. I hate having to sign cards for people I barely know, and I hate having to pretend to value cards signed by people I barely know. And I don’t need to hear “Happy Birthday To You” from four cubicle pods over when I’m trying to write code.

      Birthdays are awesome, but I’d much rather celebrate mine with my friends and family and let my colleagues celebrate theirs with their friends and family. And I’m not alone.

      1. SevenSixOne*

        CurrentJob does birthdays better than any job I’ve every had– No singing, no fanfare, no awkward gift collections or passing around a card for everyone to sign, Boss just waits for you to leave your work station, then drops a cupcake and a handwritten card for you to find when you return. If even that is more fuss than you’d like, you can opt out of that, too.

    10. Lizabeth*

      Quietly take yourselves out for a great lunch together to celebrate your birthdays and send an email out that the birthday fairies have retired, cards, cake and all.

      1. Leah*

        Agree with this. No need to take it to a vote, since I’m assuming it wasn’t an official policy to begin with. You actually are in the perfect place to stop it, since the next two birthdays are yours. If people complain, you can explain that you didn’t do anything even for your own birthdays.

        1. Ops Analyst*

          If people complained, I’d just say “you’re free to plan the next one if you like” and hope they take the hint.

    12. Ima Mgr*

      Our dept just uses birthdays as an excuse to go out to company-paid lunch together every so often. No other celebration done (no cards, no cakes, certainly no gifts). We lump them in with whatever is happening, so it’ll usually be something like “Celebrate Maude joining the team and Bertram and Franklin’s birthdays! The company is picking up the tab!” And they only happen about 5-6 times a year. The feedback from the team seems to be that it’s a good way to get “team building” in on the company’s dime without infringing too much on personal time. Plus, free lunch.

    13. Sadsack*

      Why do you have to “do” birthdays? No one where I work really cares about them, except to be thankful when the birthday person brings in food to share to celebrate. I would not want to have to plan birthday celebrations for coworkers, and I do not want one planned in my honor by anyone else. It is really not necessary at all.

      Why not announce that starting on X date, if people want to celebrate their own birthdays, they are welcome to bring in food for everyone to share. Otherwise, department-wide celebrations are coming to an end. And this by no means that people must bring in food on their birthday, it is strictly voluntary.

      1. Sadsack*

        Ha – my last point got muddled – This policy does not mean that anyone is obligated to bring food in on their own birthdays.

    14. CupcakesAbound*

      At one point I became the defacto party planner and HATED it. I don’t believe birthdays/showers, etc belong in the workplace, but that’s just me. Don’t get me wrong – if people want to celebrate w/co-workers on their own time (i.e. lunch breaks, outside of work), I think that’s perfectly fine, but I just don’t believe we need to take time away from the work day to do stuff like this.

      I think your plan of letting it phase out gradually is a good one. If anyone brings it up, you can always do what I did and say, “Since you seem so interested in celebrating, maybe you should be the one to take this stuff over.” That usually puts a halt to the conversation.

      Thankfully, all of the “birthday” people (i.e. the ones who were super into celebrating/being recognized) have since left my department and we don’t really celebrate much anymore.

      And one last thing – if you have to celebrate birthdays/occasions, try to make it as fair as possible. For example, if you get a really nice gourmet cake for one person, don’t bring in box mix bran muffins that taste like cardboard for someone else (unless that’s what they like). That happened to me. :(

    15. Anonicorn*

      So many people secretly (or openly) hate office birthday celebrations. I imagine your workplace would be happy to have them quietly fade out.

    16. Relly*

      At my office for birthdays, we have the person whose birthday it is be responsible for bringing in treats for everyone. That way the choice is on them if they want to celebrate or not. It works, really, really well.

    17. Celeste*

      I vote yes on the Irish goodbye, and I think you should take it a step further and just you two go out to lunch for each other’s birthdays. I think you should reap something for your years of doing this for others.

    18. More Cake Please*

      My office emails a birthday card on each person’s birthday. No physical cards, no cakes, no parties, but each person is recognized. Usually the “card” is just a picture of a generic birthday greeting copied off Google. For those who don’t care, it’s easy to delete the email. For the admin who does it, the whole process takes less than 10 minutes a card and, with Outlook’s Delay Delivery function, it can all be set up months in advance. Our office is smaller but generally close knit and it seems to have worked well for a while.

    19. Michelle*

      My office just does one event a month to cover all birthdays. We have dessert in the kitchen, it takes 15-30 minutes and that’s it for the month. I think it works really well for us. If you’re a small office, maybe do it quarterly? You can cover everyone but if you’re only doing a few events a year it won’t end up taking a lot of time.

    20. Melissa*

      No, I think you should just let it fade out. If no one offers to help then it must not be that important to them, and you don’t want it to cut in on your own work. I’m also one of those Scrooges who believe that birthday celebrations are personal things that should be enjoyed with friends and family not not at the workplace.

    21. JB*

      I love how my office handles it, although when I first started I thought it was strange. You are responsible for bringing cake or other birthday treats for everyone. That way you get what you want and you only have to do any birthday planning one a year. I also like it because it makes it like you are hosting a birthday party rather than expecting others to celebrate you. Not that office parties are demands for celebrating you, but I mean it kind of changes the tone, so nobody feels like they are being forced to buy cupcakes for the birthday of that coworker they don’t like.

      For the card thing though, we have one person who had to take care of buying and circulating a card for one other person, so no one person has to do it for everyone else. And if a card isn’t bought, you in our whose fault it is. Though honestly we don’t really care about the card. We’re all about the cake. It makes you really look forward to other people’s birthdays.

    23. Artemesia*

      Doing stuff no one cares about and is not professional is not the way to establish oneself as a valuable professional in the workplace. Just letting it go works fine — or make an announcement that you are retiring from organizing this and that people are invited to bring in cup cakes or cookies on their own birthday.

    24. Lucy*

      My old department had a monthly “all hands” meeting and they would roll the month’s birthdays into that – i.e., the October meeting would end with the director announcing all of the birthdays that month, and then we would get cookies/cupcakes (something small and handheld, not a big cake!) and could chill out for a few minutes before going back to our desks. Some people liked the recognition, others didn’t but they didn’t mind because the spotlight wasn’t just on them….although now that I think about it, we may have just been bribed with treats to pay attention in the meeting lol.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Exjob would do that at the quarterly meeting. We’d have a big cake for all the birthdays that quarter. If anyone wanted to do anything for their birthday specifically, they could bring in cupcakes, etc. The only exceptions to the cake thing were the married bosses; one of them liked pie and all the office people got pie that day.

        I had the list and we did cards for the office people, but I would send an email for everybody’s birthday (except the one person who opted out). If the birthday person were in the shop, I printed out their email and posted it on the bulletin board out there. I would look for cake pictures online either with their name on it or some huge chocolate monstrosity and post it in the email. For my own birthday, I put this giant Batman cake in my email. Yes, I sent one that said, “Happy birthday–TO ME!” I also picked out my own card.

        Nowadays, I celebrate my birthday by taking it off and going shopping. :)

    25. Ops Analyst*

      Wow. I’m honestly surprised by how many people dislike office birthdays. I mean, I’m not one who likes a ton of attention so I don’t particularly care to have my birthday celebrated in the office, but I didn’t realize so many people seem to almost despise them.

      Question: Old job used to do one party per month for everyone who had a birthday during that month. There was no singing, cards, or gifts. They filled a conference room with tons of cakes, desserts, and coffee. Then sent out a monthly invite and you could go or not go any time during the hour long block. Just wander in and eat and leave or stay and chat.

      That obviously doesn’t work for every office, but is that sort of thing better, without all the awkwardness? Or is it just birthdays in general and the feeling of your work day being interrupted?

      1. AnotherFed*

        AAM tends to collect people who lean towards being more introverted and/or task focused – we may not represent the general population. That said, while free food is good, having to sing and waste an hour EVERY time it’s someone’s birthday sounds like it’s one of Dante’s circles of hell! Optional wander in and grab leftover treats sounds much better.

    26. Amber Rose*

      My boss buys one cake a month. It says Happy Birthday but nobody’s name, and just sort of generally represents all possible birthdays for that month. Nobody is called out and everyone who wants gets cake. Win-win!

      But my prior experience is that whoever’s birthday it is will bring something in if they want to. If i’m feeling ambitious I make cupcakes or cookies for coworkers on my birthday. Just for a little fun. And that way works out fine too.

    27. bridget*

      This may not work if your department is too small (as in, in many months of the year there may be fewer than 2 birthdays), but my current company employs my favorite way of handling work birthdays. Once a month, there are treats in the conference room. That morning, an email goes out saying that there will be treats in the conference room at X time, and the people who have birthdays this month are A, B, C, and D. Its not disruptive if I’m too busy to swing by that day, people feel recognized, and its super easy to coordinate.

    28. Betty (the other Betty)*

      Too many replies for me to read them all, so sorry if this is a repeated idea:

      At my old office, we had a birthday ‘club.’ If you wanted to participate, you were responsible for getting cake for the person who had the birthday after yours. So Sally (April 21) brought cake for me (May 15) and I brought cake for Joe (May 28) etc.

      One person kept the birthday calendar and sent out reminders a few days ahead. I kept a cake-cutting knife, birthday candles, and a lighter in my desk. Otherwise it pretty much ran itself.

      Only participants would be notified of cake, but we would share with others if they happened to be in the area at the time. (There was always enough cake.)

    29. Cassie*

      We don’t really do birthdays in our office (except for the staff who work in student affairs – they’ll get a cake, invite faculty/students/staff, sing happy birthday, etc). In my sis’s office, they used to handle it like you do in kindergarten – if you want to celebrate your birthday, you bring in food to share with others. Now, they have a quarterly birthday cake for staff whose birthday falls within the quarter.

  4. Dang*

    It’s my last day as a temp (after over 9 months!!!!) I start my new job next week and have a week off to relax, do some spring cleaning, and shopping for new work clothes! So excited.

    6. Amethyst*

      Yay, congratulations!! Not being a temp anymore is such a great feeling. Have fun shopping for clothes!

  5. Sunflower*

    I guess this is to anyone who works in a hospital but particularly people close to organ donation. I was just approached out of nowhere about a job as a Donation Coordinator. I’m not totally disinterested- I’ve always been interested in human services and I’m not set on event planning/marketing but this is not a career change I’d ever even thought about before. I’ll also admit the salary/benefits is really what is really intriguing. I’ve never considered myself a sensitive person and the job is definitely more on the administrative side but I will have some interaction with the families and I’m a little nervous just thinking about that. Anyone who works in a similar environment, I’d appreciate thoughts/advice!

    1. C Average*

      I have a friend who had this job for a time and still looks back on it as the most rewarding professional role she’s ever had. (She left the role for family/personal reasons.) She did mention more than once that it was emotionally exhausting at times. And she had a long background in health care, so the life-and-death aspect of the work wasn’t foreign to her. I think it takes some pretty big reserves of empathy to do this job well for a long time.

    2. Dang*

      I just turned down a job working with advanced stage cancer patients (it was research related, but I would have a fair amount of interaction with them), partly because the offer was completely bizarre and I’d have to relocate, but also partly because I don’t know that I could deal with the sadness of it.

      I think it’s a very individual thing, and you don’t necessarily need to be *sensitive* to thrive in a job like that, but you need to be able to show compassion and not take it home with you at the end of the day.

    3. Beebs*

      The organ donation process is definitely a two sided story. While one family is dealing with a tragedy, another family is receiving much anticipated hope and good news. Focusing on the good that comes from the difficult loss is helpful. Also just have a frank understanding of the nature of this kind of work and general compassion. On your time you can also keep a very pragmatic view of the work. You may be surprised to find that it is not necessarily as emotionally challenging as one might expect. I currently sit on the board of directors for an organ donation/transplant, we work with recipients, donor families, and other stakeholders. It is a truly remarkable and resilient community. I think you will find more positive emotions than negative will come from this type of work.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        This is a good point.

        Also, perhaps you could ask in your interview how people deal with it?

        1. Sunflower*

          Good point, I’ll ask about it. I also found out that everyone job shadows before they accept an offer so that makes me feel a lot better about making the decision should it come to that.

      2. themmases*

        I agree with this. I used to do research with children and young adults who had either brain tumors or congenital heart disease. It is just… different than you might expect, and I think these types of jobs might have to be worked to be understood. Fundamentally, patients and their families are just folks this happened to. Some of them are inspiring, some are really unpleasant. Not everyone will benefit from your help, or not the way you imagine. The professional ethical principles of your specific role can help you think deeply about how to treat them all with empathy, serve them best, and have effective boundaries. That can be incredibly rewarding.

        At my hospital, services for patients– for example the chaplains– were also available to employees. There are also popular events like Schwartz Rounds and ethics rounds that are intended for employees specifically to talk about the emotional and ethical challenges, respectively, of caring for patients. We also had “town hall” meetings for all people who filled my role regardless of department and various care/interdisciplinary conferences and educational sessions. They are worth going to every single one you can even if it is just out of personal interest, because you will learn so much about how others experience and think about patient care and meet coworkers that it’s safe to talk to about your thoughts and feelings. If I were going into a patient coordinator role, I would want to know that it’s a priority for me to be able to attend that type of event any time it doesn’t directly conflict with patient care.

    4. Christian Troy*

      FYI, the salary is usually good because you’re on call and can work crazy hours. The positions at my hospital were not 9-5 positions so that’s something to consider.

      1. Sunflower*

        Good point- this was something I was definitely thinking about and wondering if that had something to do with the high salary and good perks. I am actually going through a recruitment agency so I will make sure to ask them about this up-front.

        1. Anonsie*

          Also be prepared to not have a lot of coverage, meaning your schedule’s flexibility can be severely limited in addition to how demanding it is overall.

          And take a microscope to those perks– if you get X hours of PTO, when do you have to use those? Holidays? Regular workday hours when you’re not scheduled, even if you are working at night or on the weekend? What needs to be arranged for you to be allowed to take off?

          1. Anonsie*

            Also– when you’re called in, where can you park and how much does that cost? Can you even park at the hospital at all? What does that mean for your daily commute, and what does it mean for an emergency call?

    5. bridget*

      I have a friend who is an organ donation coordinator at a hospital. She has to be on call for long stretches of time and works a lot of nights, because when an organ becomes available, she has to move really fast. It makes it hard for her to go out with friends on a Friday night, because you might get called in at 3 a.m., or plan vacations, or have pets, or whatever. If you already work in a nursing or hospital environment where this is a typical part of your career, this might not be bad, but it would be a tough transition for me.

    6. GiggleGiggleGigglePop*

      I used to work in tissue donation – but not in consents, actually in event planning/marketing. So if the field interests you and this job has perks you enjoy now, there may be opportunities to move around within the organization (whether you are working for the hospital or the OPO – often the OPO will employ someone who is based at the hospital, if that makes sense.)

  6. CrazyCatLady*

    This is related to question #3 in the earlier post today about leaving your job and then coming back. If you’re a manager, how long would the person need to stay after returning to not burn bridges, in your opinion?

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Two years. At least for us, it takes several weeks (if not a couple of months) to hire someone, and then 4 to 5 months before they are on their feet. Doing this on an annual basis is difficult. I know you could argue that you don’t need the training, but if you’re just there a year or so, you’re basically just delaying them having to go through a hiring process by several months.

    4. August*

      I did this. I am thinking minimum two years. But I think I will be staying as long as my manager manages this team (because she is awesome..!!!).

  7. Worth it?*

    I work for a news website and have a degree in something unrelated. The dangers of picking a major at 19… By the time I was sure that I had made a mistake, I was too close to graduation to change majors.

    It really seems that I can’t advance here or elsewhere without that communications, English, or journalism degree. I’m thinking about going back to school. How does this sound to you all?

    1. fposte*

      For an MA or another BA?

      I’d research the heck out of this in the field, asking people about credentials, and then find the shortest, cheapest program that will get you a gatekeeper-sufficient credential.

        1. Melissa*

          Going back for a second bachelor’s rarely makes sense, unless you’re trying to enter a small handful of fields in which the bachelor’s is really the only thing necessary (like engineering or nursing). Financial aid for second BAs is also pretty limited. Communications and journalism MAs usually have few required prerequisites and take people from all kinds of backgrounds – especially if you have work experience in that area – so if you’re going to spend two years in school anyway, I think it probably makes more sense to get a master’s.

          2. De Minimis*

            I agree completely, it matches up with my experience when I went back to school…I was going to have to take so many courses since it was a new field that it made far more sense to get a graduate degree.

            Actually in my case it was the only option. Space was limited in that particular university system and they stated outright that they were not accepting students seeking second bachelor’s degrees at that time.

          3. Treena Kravm*

            I have a friend in a journalism master’s program and she says it’s really just an opportunity to network and get bylines. The education piece isn’t super helpful in the overall scheme of your career though. Funding a MA will be infinitely easier than a 2nd BA.

    2. GOG11*

      Former English major/BA in English grad here. Would you be able to build a portfolio or would it make sense for your situation to gain experience that demonstrates your writing abilities as a way around having the degree? Or do you feel that you are lacking skills essential to the jobs you want that would be learned in the course of getting the degree?

    3. Kerry*

      I’ve worked in news journalism for eight years (and progressed well into different jobs) without having a degree in it – in my experience both hiring journalists and being hired, your degree isn’t important when you’ve been working long enough to have a good record. If you can’t progress at your current employer without a specific degree, I’d look at other employers before I looked at going back to study.

      1. Jennifer*

        Well, the new trend to rule people out of jobs is to require a specific degree, which seems to be what the OP is running into. I agree with you that degree type should not be an issue in the actual job though.

        But getting a second BA in order to go into writing jobs? Not worth it, given how writers are usually the first to get canned and the pay is low.

    4. The Office Admin*

      My brother in law has his bachelor’s degree in History and when he got out of college 13+ years ago he went into pharmaceutical sales.
      My husband is finishing his degree in Computer Science and will be working as a software developer so….

      Anyway, I have this theory that if you want a technical job like: lawyer, doctor, nurse, software developer ect. get the specific degree you need. It’s totally necessary. If you want to do anything else, you have the piece of paper that says you stuck with college, got your degree and then found out you didn’t like/couldn’t use your degree in real life.
      You have work experience in a media field, stay where you are, ask someone you work closely with to mentor you so you can advance your career with projects or news stories instead of another degree. It’s a better use of your time and money in my opinion. Also, every year you spend in school is a year you aren’t maximizing your income potential. Or so my husbands mantra goes ;)

    5. Retail Lifer*

      I’m going to have to go back to school for the THIRD time if I ever want to get our of my field. I’m really salty about that, although I can say I did enjoy college as an adult the second time around. I took all online courses and made it work around my ever-changing job schedule. Just make sure you pick a field where the starting pay os MORE than what you’re making in your current field. I didn’t do that and now I’m stuck.

    6. soitgoes*

      Is there a way for you to gain more experience in your current role? That way, you could move up in that industry based on experience rather than looking for jobs based on your specific skills.

    7. INTP*

      I’m not knowledgable about your field so I can’t answer questions about whether it’s a good idea overall, but I would absolutely in any case pursue a MA over a BA. It takes half as long and with years of work experience you can likely get into a program. No reason to put more time into a less prestigious degree.

    8. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Ugh, where have you been looking? Of virtually all subjects, comms/English/journalism/writing are the jobs that are typically most available without a credential if you’ve got the goods. I mean, you can prove you’re a good writer in a way that you can’t prove other things.

      Rather than go back to school, I’d first try to create a blog to get a year or twos worth of content up, do some freelance writing if you can, get your citizen journalist on… prove your chops, in addition to continuing to work for the news website. I just cannot imagine that someone who is good at this stuff would need to go back to school to get a degree in it.

      If you’re finding that you’re applying to a lot of jobs that are rejecting you and they *say* you need the degree, that’s one thing. But if you’re getting rejections and you’re not really sure why (or if they tell you the degree thing only if you ask for feedback after applying), you might want to make sure you’re writing is locked down (error-wise) and awesome. Most anywhere that publishes any kind of writing will take a superior writer and editor without a degree over a pretty-good writer with a degree any day. (So, if you’re pretty good at writing and don’t have the degree, you’re at a double disadvantage, but getting the degree is not the best way to address it.)

      1. Worth it?*

        I don’t know the reason for rejections. I’m assuming it’s because other people are more qualified – and because there is a very good journalism school in the area.

        Your first paragraph: This is what I thought, and what I heard before I graduated. But I’m finding that I just can’t get anywhere. My interest is not taken seriously.

        1. Melissa*

          It could be because other people are more qualified, but those qualifications don’t necessarily have anything to do with the degrees. Before you shell out the money I’d try to figure out if there is another, faster, cheaper way that you can establish credentials and qualifications.

        2. ExceptionToTheRule*

          I don’t know what your other skills look like beyond writing, but the days are gone when that’s all media companies want you to do. You need to be able to shoot photos & video, edit video, do some light graphic design, etc. If you lack those skills, you’re losing out to people who have them. A good way to get them is by using online training programs like Lynda.com. If you can integrate that type of work into your current job, you’ll be in a better position.

          A grad degree at some place like Medill is going to cost a fortune and you won’t see a return on that investment for a long, long time.

      2. Tris Prior*

        +1. Honestly, this is the first time that I’ve heard of a company who actually thinks a BA in English (which is what I have) is in any way necessary for employment. :)

        It is incredibly tough to get a paid writing gig these days – so many print jobs have vanished or been outsourced, or are being handled by freelancers willing to work for pennies. I’d blame that more than your lack of degree – unless of course that’s the direct feedback you’re getting from employers; that your lack of a specific degree is the reason they will not hire you.

    9. Gwen*

      I work in writing (started in editorial, moved to copywriting, some freelancing)…I was an english/creative writing major, and in my experience, clips are king. If you have the samples and bylines, no one cares about your lack of degree (and no one cares about you having your degree if you don’t have clips).

    10. Gnome*

      I write without an English degree and know lots of other writers who don’t have a related degree. I also know a lot of unemployed English majors…

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Yeah. Journalism in particular is just hard to break into, and writing in general is tough. If OP is not a great writer, he/she probably just isnt going to make a career out of it (though there are exceptions). Having the degree isn’t going to help if people just don’t like the writing style!

        And even if you’re really good, there are just so many more applicants out there than available writing/comms/journalism jobs.

          1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

            I just don’t think that’s the case. Perhaps the company, or geographical area you’re in, are really niche or something? I don’t know of any writer who first judges other writers by anything other than a sample. You obviously know your situation better than anyone else, but I really just don’t think having a degree or not is the issue here.

            Maybe you can find a professional writer (even like a blogger that you like or something) that you don’t know that might be willing to take a look at your materials and give you feedback? Or have you been asking prospective employers for feedback after a rejection?

            I also obviously have no idea how good a writer you might be, but I will warn you that 1) everyone has a different style, and some people just won’t like yours, and 2) if you’re being rejected because people just don’t think you’re a good writer, they’re highly unlikely to tell you that straight-up, which does make it hard to figure out what you need to do differently. :(

            I wish you luck!

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, I’m agreeing with Kimberlee here. I’ve hired for a lot of writing jobs, and been hired for a lot of writing jobs, and the degree just really doesn’t enter into it. It’s about the quality of your writing and published clips. Clips clips clips.

        2. DEJ*

          This, so much this:

          And even if you’re really good, there are just so many more applicants out there than available writing/comms/journalism jobs.

    11. literateliz*

      Journalism major here. This sounds nuts to me. What is your degree in?

      Granted I’ve never worked in news– I’m in book publishing now–but I always had the very strong impression that journalism was one of the fields where experience counts for a lot more than the degree. All the better if your degree is in finance or science or something and you can bring your background to writing about those things. My degree at least gave me a good understanding of the field (most profs were working journalists), but English… really would not help, IMO.

      Maybe your current company is an anomaly? I’d look around. If you’re worried because job ads ask for a related degree, but you have experience, I’d apply anyway.

      1. literateliz*

        Bleh, posted this before I saw the above responses (thanks, smartphone!) The good journalism school in the area may have something to do with it, and honestly, it is a fairly difficult field to break into in general. If you do go back, I would at least go for journalism or communications over an MA in English. My impression is that the latter is geared towards going into academia.

      2. Tris Prior*

        Former journalist here and you are absolutely right. My English degree had nothing to do with me getting hired; it was my clips and my internships at actual newspapers, doing real reporting work.

        1. fposte*

          But would they have even looked at your application in the first place if you had a degree in Spanish or phys ed? I think that’s what the OP is worrying about.

          1. Worth it?*

            Yeah, that’s it. When I say I’m getting nowhere without a degree, I really do mean it.

            1. fposte*

              Right, but it’s also possible that it’s not the degree–that’s what you need to figure out before you spend money and time. So you need to find out from people who are hiring in the area where you’re looking to work if they’re factoring degrees into their decision.

              1. Tris Prior*

                This was sort of where I was going with my comment too. OP, are they telling you that you’ve got awesome clips and are clearly a skilled writer but they won’t hire you because of a lack of a specific degree?

                I reread your post and see that you’re currently at a news organization. What are you doing there? I wonder if “you don’t have the right degree” is code for “we want you to keep doing your current role” and that you’re actually just being pigeonholed into a non-writing role. Especially if you’re an admin or reciptionist or another role where people can sometimes get stuck. :/

          1. Tris Prior*

            Sorry to say that it was in the late 1990s-mid 2000s. :/ Before the economy went down the toilet.

    13. C Average*

      I have an English degree, and to be honest, your question might be the first time I’ve EVER seen an English degree described as a commodity with any value whatsoever. (I’m excepting the opinion of the English department of my alma mater, which of course viewed an English degree as the portal to many wonderful but vague career opportunities.)

      If you write well and have a demonstrable record of delivering publication-ready work, it really shouldn’t matter what your degree is in. And in most places, it won’t matter.

      What kind of role are you hoping to get into exactly?

      1. april ludgate*

        As a recent graduate with a BA in English “wonderful but vague career opportunities” is so accurate it hurts.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Some of us have a soft spot for the humanities, don’t worry! When I look to hire I want curious minds that know how to think and question, and good writing skills. There are more specifics, but if you can hit those big things I’m happy.

    14. Macedon*

      Experience >= clips >>>>>> journo degree.

      Depending on what kind of journo roles you’re applying for, you’ll need a few years of hands-on experience of writing in the particular field. If you want to do tech or financial journo, for instance, you are significantly better off with a CompSci/Econ degree than with a classical writing one. This is actually one of the few industries where big-name employers are less particular about your education, while heavily emphasising your writing experience: a national might take you even if you’ve never set foot in a journo classroom ( funnily enough, a smaller publication might be more snobbish about this, since a lot of them don’t really… get… news editorial).

      That said, it’s a pretty cut-throat industry, and our job market promises more famine than feast. Give it time. If you’ve already done so, and all lights’re still red, take a good, long look at your cover letter and CV. You’re in writing: your cover letter is your first portfolio piece. Figure out what’s not catching their eye.

      If you’re intent on going back to school for this: do an actual journo degree and look into programmes that require field work for assignments. Don’t assume all of them surely do – very many don’t.

    15. katamia*

      Oh, man, I feel ya there. I’ve been trying to get copyeditor positions (not specifically news-oriented, basically whatever kind of editing would have me) for ages but they all want an English or journalism degree, and mine is in something else. What I’ve been trying to do is kind of go sideways–for the last year and a halfish, I’ve been doing transcription for a couple companies (work at home) and have also taught ESL (so in other words, I do know my grammar). While I have yet to get a response from a job ad that wants one of those precious degrees, I have a 100% response rate from the few places I’ve found that don’t have that silly requirement, so I’m confident in saying that, yes, my degree being in something else is keeping me from being considered for those jobs.

      If you’re up for maintaining a blog (I personally am not and would rather spend my free time writing fiction), that could be something you could use as an example of your writing/editing skills. You can also look at websites and publications geared toward the subject that your degree is in and keep an eye out to see if they’re hiring.

      I wouldn’t go back to school, personally, unless it were an MA.

    16. Come On Eileen*

      I work in communications and my degree is in psychology and political science :-) Not really related to the work that I do at all! I’ve just always liked to write and found a way to incorporate it into my jobs (which it sounds like maybe you’re doing too?) and so now, I’ve never had a recruiter or hiring manager blink when they see my degree isn’t related to communications. My work history backs it up, which I think is most important.

    17. anna*

      You seem set on doing it but I’m going to echo everyone and say it’s a waste. I went to Medill for undergraduate and while I look back at those year fondly, the professors there are more about inflating your ego and pushing you into the integrated marketing communications track. It’s just an age where getting a Master’s in journalism isn’t necessarily going to open more doors for you and will leave you in a mountain of debt.

      Aim for getting more clips. What is your role at the news website?

      1. Worth it?*

        I’ve decided against it for now, after reading advice here (thank you!). I think I’m just frustrated with how hard it has been to get *any* experience, thinking that school would help. I’ll keep working on this.

  8. Mockingjay*

    Happy Friday, all!

    We spend a lot of time on this forum venting about managers and managerial problems. Let’s flip the coin.

    Name an outstanding characteristic of your favorite supervisor/manager, past or present.

    Mine is the quality manager who spent a year implementing real, intelligent processes to save our program. He showed us how to work smarter, not harder. He let the technical leads do their thing and made sure we had the systems and support to do our jobs. 15 years on, I still miss him.

    2. Kelly White*

      I had a manager who, when he received a complaint about something, actually took the time to discuss it with us- not just to assume that we (CSR’s) were at fault. It sounds like a reasonable thing to do- but, out of all the jobs I’ve had- I have only had two managers who responded like this.

      1. Snoskred*

        Me too – my best manager would write us an email asking for our side of the story, she would take time to sit down with us and go through the situation that happened, identify where things went wrong, and put procedures in place to stop it from happening again.

        The best manager always, always, had our back with the clients even if we’d made a mistake. But believe me, if we screwed up, we would never ever make that mistake a second time, and if anyone around us was about to make it, we would speak up and everyone took the speaking up as intended – to do our very best work at all times, not to nitpick or upset each other.

        She was such a great manager that none of us wanted to let her down and she inspired us to hold ourselves to the highest standard. She did all the training herself and she made it hilarious which turns out to be one of the best way to learn. A training shift with her was like stand up from the best comedian ever.

        She also managed the rosters and she remembered every single persons availability and personal situations without needing any paperwork to keep track of things and this was a major accomplishment given that she had a team of over 60 staff across multiple offices, including one overseas where she never got to travel to herself, so a lot of the work with those staff members was over the phone.

        When she left, obviously, no one person could step into her shoes. In fact it took 3 people to take on the role she had covered – one trainer, one rostering person who took a week to put out a roster that she could put out in just a couple of hours, and one manager.

        The people who tried to replace her in all 3 roles were so very bad at it, and most of us who had worked with her were upset to see the new staff were not trained anywhere near as well, we had no end of trouble with our rosters, and the manager could not manage her way out of a paper bag let alone 60+ staff. The new manager would not have our backs, nor would she check in with us for our side of the story. I cut my hours way back, and eventually left as a result, and I was not the only one.

        I’m sad to think I will likely never have a manager like that again in my lifetime, but I do think you have to be very lucky to have just one who was that kind of brilliant, let alone luck into having more than one. :)

    3. Jules*

      He coaches me about the whole department’s function as a whole and let me grow as quickly as I needed.

    4. C Average*

      One of my former managers did a great job of setting a steady, consistent emotional mood for our team. No matter how frustrated, ecstatic, stressed, tired, etc., he got, he maintained a calm and competent persona that let us all know we had dependable leadership.

      I took this completely for granted at the time. But having now reported to someone moody for the past couple of years, I see how much value there is in having a manager who presents a steady-as-she-goes face to the world.

      1. Temporarily anon*

        I think you may have nailed it. I was about to say I knew who I’d list, but couldn’t put my finger on why, and then I read your comment. It was so nice to feel like nothing was on fire, and even if it was, it would fizzle out after talking to her.

      2. Sandy*

        +1

        My favourite boss of all time never (appeared to) let anything faze her, and she was in charge of mediating some really crazy crises.

        It was FANTASTIC. especially now that I have a boss that gets frazzled and yells over the tiniest, least-crisis-worthy things.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, managers, if you can’t do anything else, least get this part down pat.

        If you remain calm you appear more intelligent. Seriously. I have some smart managers that were yellers/throwers. No one thought anything of them professionally or personally. Because the manager knew they had shaky footing, that lead to more yelling/throwing. No job is worth coming unglued over.

    5. Mike C.*

      I have a manager that actually supports us – tools, runs interference with politics get in the way, is incredibly transparent and ethics driven and really, really works hard give us opportunities to learn new skills, get promoted and so on.

      He’s the kind of guy you want to support and do well for not because you have to, but because you don’t want to let him down.

    6. OfficePrincess*

      One old manager recognized that the mental health issues I was experiencing were real and not just an excuse to get out of work, but that there was no way I could continue in the job. He went to bet for me to get two weeks of partially paid leave so that my last day was the first of the month, giving me an extra month of healh insurance (it ended the last day of the month you resigned in, so quitting on the 1st vs the 20th is a huge deal).

      1. Melissa*

        Oh, that was another one of the best things about my old boss. She had a background in mental health counseling, so when I was struggling with mental health issues I felt comfortable telling her about it. She still treated me like a competent and intelligent human being but made sure to ask after me and give me the tools necessary to recover while still working (flexibility, time, etc.)

        Bosses who understand mental health problems are golden.

    7. beachlover*

      I love the fact that my manager does not “manage” me. I am pretty much a self starter, and have been in management before. So she has complete trust in my skills and decision making. I just keep her in the loop on things that are “big” picture.

    8. stillLAH*

      My boss in grad school let me use one of our programs as the focus of an individual study. He let me evaluate it, make and implement suggestions, and even present my final presentation to the board. He was awesome in other ways, too–always made my input feel valuable, had the balance of work and office chat down to a science, and taught me that what we’re doing isn’t saving lives. I met some seriously awesome people in that job. 5 years later and it’s still been my favorite past-job. I’d work for him again in a heartbeat.

    9. HeyNonnyNonny*

      My manager is always careful to shield be from extra work if she’s just given me a huge project– I love that I can buckle down on a big task without worrying about prioritizing with other departments.

    10. Leah*

      My current manager has absolute faith in us. He trusts us to manage our time, get things done, and that we’ll come to him if we need help. He is the best and we love him.

      He also couldn’t care less if we show up on time, as long as it’s a reasonable window and we make up the billable “butt in chair” time.

    11. Melissa*

      I once worked in a dysfunctional department with a lot of problems, but my immediate manager was amazing. One of my favorite qualities was that she took us seriously and incorporated our feedback and ideas into her plan of action. I was a graduate student worker at the time on a team of three, and this particular department tended to disregard the employees as some sort of sub-adult life form (although most of us were mid-20s to mid-30s and several had years of work experience outside of this job – we just happened to be graduate students) and didn’t take our concerns seriously, including our indications about why they were losing quality candidates when they tried to do hiring.

      My manager in my second year at this job was brand-new – she was hired at the end of our first year – but immediately came in and sat back and really listened to us. The year before my two teammates and I ran our area without direct oversight, and so she assumed that we were competent individuals and used a lot of our insights and knowledge when managing our area. She didn’t come in and try to change everything, but when she saw an area of improvement, she gradually incorporated it in while asking for lots of feedback from us about whether it would work in this setting. This made us enthusiastic about supporting her when she did make changes.

      She was great, and happily I found out that she recently got a promotion – she’s now in charge of the entire department, even though she just started at the job like 3 years ago (because she’s awesome). And she’s making significant changes that we had talked about being beneficial for attracting top candidates and improving the services that the department provides to students.

    12. August*

      I think the best managers I had were the people who had confidence in themselves and non controlling. Along with delivering the products/services that we need to deliver, they focused hugely on development the careers of the people who worked for them even if that meant they were losing the employee to take up more senior level positions.

    13. GOG11*

      I had a manager in retail (of all fields!) who always seemed to notice the things you did right, not just the things that needed to be fixed or changed – and he let you know that he noticed, appreciated it, what impact it had, etc.

      He was also great at figuring out what you would excel at and he tended to delegate based on that. A coworker who wasn’t super speedy but who had a great eye for detail was assigned to an area of the store that got trashed somewhat regularly and he made sure to let that person work on that area during their down time. Nobody else had the patience for the monotony of it, but this person was great at it! He matched us with tasks that suited our abilities/interests well and then gave us the time and resources to get the job done (instead of just paying lip service to things).

      1. ACA*

        My best manager was actually in retail, too. She always had my back (even to upper management!), and never made me feel stupid or small when she had to reprimand me. Once I accidentally undercharged a woman by $1000 on her wedding invitations, and my manager was furious…that the customer had deliberately come in on a day my manager wasn’t working, even though it was such a complicated order that my manager had given the customer her schedule for the week to make sure that she (my manager) was the one to handle the order.

    14. Luxe in Canada*

      I’ve had two managers who saw that I was really interested in working my way up. They’ve talked to me about my career plans and what skills I’d need to demonstrate in order to take advantage of any opportunities for promotion. Most importantly, they’ve given me responsibilities so I can develop these skill sets. I know a lot of people might not think “my boss gives me extra jobs” is a good thing, but it’s the difference between just doing my job as a worker bee versus building up my resume and track record in order to move up out of entry-level work.

    15. Michele*

      My best “manager” was my graduate research advisor because I could trust him. He was a new professor, so there was a learning curve on his part as well as mine, but he always did what he thought was best and always had my back. He was also consistent in his instructions and not tempermental.

      It is really common for faculty to misuse students and treat them poorly. For example, I was known for being a very hard worker. Shortly before I defended, one of my committee members went to my advisor and said that he would refuse to sign my dissertation so I would have to stay and work more without making my advisor look like the bad guy. Of course, quid pro quo was expected. Fortunately, my advisor not only rejected the offer, he was so shocked that he told me about it. Fifteen years later, we still keep in touch, and he is the only former boss of mine that I am still in contact with.

    16. LQ*

      My current manager is great because he tries very hard to be a good manager and he’s a good manager for me. (Hands off, gives me the resources I need to do my work, knows I’m interested in new and engaging work, supports learning.)

      My former boss who was the best boss ever was my first Real Job boss and she coached me through everything, “LQ come listen to how I handle this call. Ok any questions? Next time you’re doing it. Great, but do these two things different. Ok now you’re on your own!” And she helped me navigate a job that was a huge shift from what I thought I wanted but was incredible for me. She believed that if I couldn’t get my job done in about 40 hours a week I had too much work or I wasn’t working effectively and would tell me which was which. Etc, she was really amazing.

    17. AmyNYC*

      My current manager works super had and super long hours (and by default, so does her team) that part sucks, but even though she’s super busy and has a million things to do, she takes the time to review work with the team and fully answer any questions I have. Learning so much (almost) makes the crazy hours worth it!

    18. Labyrinthine*

      My current manager gives me real, productive, positive and constructive feedback on a regular basis. He also regularly checks in to ensure I feel supported (as I am the sole member of management outside of the main office) and offers me real opportunities to grow and develop in my role.

      In short, he makes me feel valued and an important member of the team – which is something I haven’t had before.

    19. Bridget*

      My best manager was my very first out of college. In the interview, we bonded over our mutual love of Stephen King and having significant others who work in medical professions. He was very articulate and soft-spoken, and was able to talk me down when I got frustrated (we worked for a national non-profit). I also had an enormous crush on him…so that helped. I think he had one on me, too, but then he moved away and now we only talk occasionally. Which is good, cause, ya know, we’re both married. (And he was 20+ years older than me.)

    20. misspiggy*

      My wonderful manager chose people on personal qualities and potential, rather than just experience, and made it clear she had total confidence in us. She would set us enormously ambitious goals and we would deliver, because we had freedom to determine our own ways of getting there and she was always available for quick advice when we got stuck. Plus she saw her role as protecting the long term goals of the team from the many management reverses and idiosyncrasies. She took a lot of flak for that from upper layers, and as a result didn’t get promoted to the level she deserved, but we really delivered a lot of change in the outside world. Miss her so much.

    21. Molly*

      Couldn’t pick one thing. I’m pretty sure my manager reads this blog – and may in actual fact be Allison’s clone. :) She does it all exactly right.

    22. Windchime*

      My favorite manager ever is my current one. He is really, really smart and skilled in our very technical field *and* he is people-smart as well, which is a rare combination. He is very supportive with regards to helping us in our professional goals and is a big believer in using all of our education/training budget. He’s a great guy and I hope he is my boss for a long time.

    23. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a really wonderful manager right now. He’s sensitive in the best way– he checks in but he completely understands when I freak out. Case in point: I was having a really hard time on my first project, which technically had nothing to do with him, and one evening he asked how I was and I burst into tears. He just smiled and said, “It’s ok, I get it,” and sent me encouraging messages. He doesn’t treat me with kid gloves or like I’m some crazy hysterical girl– he completely gets it when people have to have their freakouts.

      I really, really wish I could work on a project with him. I was remarking to someone the other day that I was super jealous watching our manager work with another co-worker on a new project. He is so patient and collaborative, and he truly believes that work is not the most important thing in life. He looks out for all of us and keeps us sane, and I know he sticks up for me– and it’s only been four months. He also reminds me in my most paranoid moments that he hired me and he is a genius (!), therefore I must be one too.

      As it stands, my clients are handled by other managers in the company, so it will be a long time before I get to work directly with my own manager. One day! Also? He LOVES my dog, and the feeling is mutual. When I bring the dog in, he (the dog) whines when my boss goes out.

    24. AnotherFed*

      My current manager is the best I’ve had, hands down. I learn best by running into the brick wall a time or two before figuring out that I need to climb over it, and he gives me just enough direction and info that I won’t cause any harm with my head butt moment, then once I’ve got it down, lets me run with it without any interference.

    25. S*

      I love my manager a lot, but really, I think that the company culture implemented by my department director is the thing I love the most. There’s such an emphasis on training and mentorship, especially for the younger folks (fellows and interns) so that even if they’re leaving the org in a few months, they’ll have skills necessary to succeed in their next job.

  9. C Average*

    One of the most valuable things I’ve gotten from becoming a regular reader of this blog is a better understanding of professional norms. It’s always interesting to me when a question comes up about a scenario that’s completely foreign to my experience and there’s a consensus in the comments that the behavior described is wildly unprofessional.

    So it made me wonder: What’s the most unprofessional thing you’ve ever done that you didn’t realize at the time was unprofessional?

    Here’s mine: For the first couple of years I was at my current company, I operated with almost complete obliviousness to the corporate hierarchy. If I had a question, I asked the person I figured could best answer it. I very, very rarely went through proper channels. In retrospect, I’m not particularly sorry, because I accomplished a lot of things I’m still proud of in part because I sought and got buy-in from people way above me and wasn’t bogged down by bureaucracy. But I must have driven my management insane.

    1. Joey*

      I talked to folks the way I wanted to be spoken to- blunt and to the point. I soon realized you have to read people and adjust your style to fit them.

      3. TL -*

        I have a similar thing, where I often come off as much harsher than I intend to (usually because the other person is being incredibly dumb and/or inconsiderate but still…)

    2. some1*

      I would say generally I didn’t understand that when I started working in the white collar world is that didn’t understand that there are some unwritten rules that people won’t tell you.

      When I was in school or in retail jobs, if I did something wrong I faced tangible consequences. In the professional world, that’s a lot murkier. For something like having your significant other visit you every day or spending a lot of time on personal phone calls might not get an actual reprimand from a manager or coworker, but it may cause your coworkers to view you less professionally.

    3. Dang*

      When I was a grad student I was a research assistant and shared an office with my boss. I’d frequently chew gum. Apparently like a cow because after I’d been doing it for at least a few weeks(!) he said “this is uncomfortable, but can you not do that?”

      Ugh, I was the cow chewer and I didn’t even know it.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      In my first job, I was the youngest employee by 20-25 years. I addressed everyone as “Mr.” or “Mrs.” with their last name until our CPA told me I was making everyone feel old and to use first names.

    6. matcha123*

      Hmm…In my first full-time job out of university I was dealing with that and being overseas. So, maybe not using my sick time when I could have. Instead, I did what I’d done all of my life which was go in sick (not with anything that could be caught by anyone else) and spend a huge chunk of the day in the bathroom.

      The other was not speaking up when higher-ups asked for my opinion because I didn’t want to offend and didn’t think my opinion was worth much of anything to anyone.

    7. Kelly L.*

      Once, thinking I was helping, I barged into a conversation I’d only heard part of, and gave advice that would have actually been pretty dangerous if the other person there hadn’t smacked it down right away. I learned to be sure I knew what was going on before I opened my mouth.

    8. Jubilance*

      In my first job, I spent boring meetings on my phone. I got chewed out by a program manager about it – until then I didn’t think about what kind of message I was sending by playing on my phone instead of paying attention.

      1. Mabel*

        I thought you meant that the meetings were teleconferences and that you were attending the meeting by phone. For a few seconds I couldn’t figure out why you’d get crewed out for that!

    9. Laura*

      At my first internship, I would leave about 5 minutes early. So if I was scheduled to work until 4pm, I’d usually wrap up all my work by 3:50 and be out the door at 3:55. Looking back I cringe and people probably thought I was an ass who should have stayed until 4pm. I was naive.

      1. Lizzie*

        I did the same thing during my internship my senior year of college. (Although I will say that if my boss had given me more than 10 hours of work to fill my 20 hours per week in the office [especially when I pointed out that I was wrapping up my projects up to 2 hours before I was supposed to leave every day and then pretty much just sitting around], I probably wouldn’t have spent so much time staring at the clock.)

    10. Persephone Mulberry*

      Ah, youth.

      Back in my late teens/early 20s, I had a series of short stays at various retail jobs and repeatedly no-showed on my scheduled day. I was all, “what are they going to do, fire me?” and didn’t even think about the bridge I just burnt.

      In this same period, I also no call/no showed two days in a row and was surprised when I called to check my shifts for the next week and found out I was fired.

      2. Alexis*

        Given the fact that you’ve obviously changed, you give me hope for my sister who is doing the same thing! She gets so upset when she’s fired but doesn’t change the behavior.

    11. kdizzle*

      Oh lord. During my first few months at my first job out of grad school, I created a folder on the shared drive that said “Do Not Open – Private,” and then each subsequent sub folder had a similar title (e.g. “why did you click on that?” and “I told you not to continue”). After about 15 layers of folders, there was a picture of Rick Astley (of rick roll fame) that said “Never gonna trust you again.”

      I still….do…not…have….any…idea…what I was thinking. It was an organization of about 150 people, and everyone had access to it. About a week after I posted it, my boss called me into his office and just started laughing hysterically. That was almost 10 years ago, and he still talks about why that made me the best hire ever. I cringe hard when I think of it.

      3. BRR*

        Part of me thinks this is the greatest thing ever. My ideal workplace would have more things like this.

      4. IT Kat*

        ….I am going to do this once I’m back at home office.

        (In my defense, the company bills itself as most fun place to work in the area and jokes like this on the whiteboard in the kitchenette and around the office are not uncommon. And yes, they are usually quiet ones just left for those who want to join in, not dragging people uninterested into them!)

      6. Sunflower*

        I think this is so incredibly hilarious. Was there any reasoning behind it? Did you just want to see if people would click on it?

        1. kdizzle*

          I’m pretty sure I was just testing the waters. I had no idea that things like shared drives existed, and it was my first few months on the job, so I was likely a bit bored while waiting to get up to speed.

      7. kdizzle*

        I was never going to win any awards for professionalism, but I am truly grateful that I’ve worked at places that seem to enjoy my somewhat strange sense of humor (or at least tolerate it). Let’s see…I gave a presentation wearing a snuggie, I hung a portrait of Nicholas Cage next to all of the other former company presidents, wrote ridiculous fake memos…all within my interning time / first 2 years as a professional. It seems like such a crazy departure from the professional I’ve become that I can’t believe I was so oblivious to realities of a workplace.

      8. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Man, if I had thought of that, it would be like my greatest professional achievement. That ish would be on my resume.

      9. Florida*

        I worked at a timeshare resort where there were about three people who loved playing harmless practical jokes on one another. I wasn’t part of this jokester group, but I loved observing their antics. A common thing they did was to put lotion on the ear piece of someone’s telephone, then go back to their own office and call that person. Normally the jokes where fine and fit the culture of the company.

        One time, a recruiter was interviewing a candidate for a sales position The phone rang. She picked it up and got lotion all over her ear and hair. (She shouldn’t have answered the phone during an interview!) After that, HR intervened and said no more practical jokes.

    12. Lady Bug*

      Dressed like I was going to the club, not work. It’s a skirt right, totally professional (even though I can’t bend over)! I shudder thinking about it now.

      1. cuppa*

        I did the same thing. Ugh. I wore plaid pants (that were TIGHT) and a black tank top to work once. And went out on a business lunch in that. *cringe*

      2. thisisit*

        omg, i feel this one. leggings, tunic-type top that barely covered my butt, and sky-high heeled boots (with buckles *cringe*) and the worst part was that i was like 30.

      3. Sunflower*

        One time I wore a legitimate bathing suit cover up(it was really cute and if made with the right material, would have been an adorable dress) with a white slip underneath thinking that made it okay. It wasn’t until I went out after work and my friend kept asking if I was wearing a bathing suit cover-up that I realized I most definitely should not do that again

    13. Ihmmy*

      This was one I learned pretty quickly, but having to adjust to other peoples communications styles. I prefer doing almost everything by email when I can, but there are some folk who are just phone people so you need to be ok with picking up the phone to call them instead of sending them an email. If documentation around the conversation is important, you can add it to a communication log or have them confirm by email a brief summary of what was decided, but still call them.
      (I still want people to email me, but if we both bend on our communication styles we can reach something that is effective and not super stressful)

    14. LillianMcGee*

      At my first office job–an internship–I was asked to move files from one set of filing cabinets to another in a different room. With no instruction other than “move them,” I ended up filing everything backwards (like… alphabetical order coming toward the front instead of toward the back of the cabinet). No one even told me I did it ridiculously until my last week (!) when they asked me to fix it. I felt like such a huge dumbass. Probably an even bigger mistake I continuously made was never proactively looking for work. I always waited for someone to give me something.

    15. Red*

      I have Resting B-face. Any time I’m not consciously controlling my expression, it apparently looks like I am angry. The effect is worse the more I am thinking or concentrating on something. So many people have seen me walking to the restroom, reading a file, listening in on a conference call, or something else that’s not directly speaking with someone else and thought I was enraged or hated them, but wouldn’t spill the beans to me. Only one manager ever mentioned it to me (in a mild, funny way because while it’s an important issue, she also thought it was funny and knows I’m pretty even tempered!) after a meeting in which I had apparently looked either strongly skeptical or rather irritated. (I was actually really interested since it was about employer paid taxes.) I’m grateful she brought it up. I’ve had resting b-face syndrome my whole life and it is so hard to get rid of! I think it’s milder than it used to be just because I’ve really tried hard to fix it, but I’m definitely not all the way there.

      1. april ludgate*

        I have this problem too. Whenever I’m in a meeting or walking around the office I have to think to myself “make your face look nice.”

    16. GOG11*

      One time when I was working retail as my first job outside of college (during college, I had a lot more independence and set my own hours since it was project management and event planning type stuff)…and it was really slow so I kept asking the manager to let me go home. I still cringe when I think of that…part of it was that I was used to setting my own hours more or less and the other part was just plain lack of professionalism.

    17. the gold digger*

      I was the only woman in a meeting of men I did not know well. One of them made a reference to “smegma” and the blood drained from my face. He clearly did not know what the word meant – it was in a completely innocuous context.

      Instead of pulling him aside and telling him privately that he might be misunderstanding the word, I blurted something out in front of the entire group – his peers and his boss.

      He was horrified and so apologetic. He said he thought he had made the word up. He was mortified and shamed in front of his co-workers.

      This was over 15 years ago and I still wince when I think about how I handled it. I could have done that so differently. I still regret not just biting my lip until a better time. I have tried to pick my moments better since then, but I am not always successful. Sometimes, it’s better just to keep your mouth shut.

      1. cuppa*

        I made an off-hand inappropriate comment about someone once, didn’t put much context about the situation, and got the name wrong (first name right, last name wrong). The person that I named was a VERY well respected person in my field (and someone to whom I really look up to) and the person that heard the comment told my boss about it. He asked me about it, and I was able to smooth it over, but if it had just gone out as a rumor, it would have been terrible. I learned to seriously watch my mouth and get my facts straight if I did say something. Oy.

    18. thisisit*

      i had an internship (first summer after freshman year of college) that was at a small US-based office of a japanese think tank. all the employees were japanese (mostly male), except 2 americans (presumably of european descent, one male, one female). the american guy was my direct supervisor.

      first day of work i came in 10 minutes late. then we had a late morning meeting, and i was one of the first people in the conference room. in america, most of the time, the person directing the meeting sits at the head of the table. so i chose a seat in the middle of the table (on the side away from the door). some co-workers come in, see me, sit on one end of the table. room is mostly filled up (though not the seats around me) by the time my supervisor arrives. he walks in a with a horrified look on his face at seeing me and hurries over to my chair, pulls it out, and informs me that in japan, the senior people sit in those seats. he points me to a seat at the perimeter of the room.

      to make this whole thing more mortifying – after the first week, i decided it was all too much work for me (yeah, i know, right???), so i just didn’t show up on monday. or tuesday. or any day after that.

      ugh. and it was a well-paying internship, in a sea of unpaid ones. sigh.

      1. Judy*

        Just as a side comment, in most of the meetings I’ve attended in the last 20 years in the US, the person facilitating the meeting sat at the middle of the table, not the head of the table.

        1. thisisit*

          room size, table shape, etc, make a difference, but as a former professional meeting planner, I almost always put the moderator, facilitator, or head person at the head or “top” of the table.

        2. LawBee*

          Yeah, we always put the meeting leader at the head of the table bc everyone can see her there. In the middle, you’ve got people craning their necks to see around the person next to them.

    19. Camellia*

      The most unprofessional thing I ever did was also the best, because I learned an important lesson.

      A few months out of school, at my first white collar job, I was walking to the restroom with a co-worker and complaining about another group not doing their work, messing up, what are they – stupid?, all kinds of stuff like that. I continued the rant while we were in the restroom. And guess what – a member of that team was in there.

      A few minutes later my manager, who was the second-best manager I have ever had, called me over and said we had to get in front of this immediately. He coached me, then called a meeting with that person and her manager and me. I apologized profusely, ate humble pie, groveled, and begged forgiveness, as well I should. Not sure they actually forgave me but I did keep my job.

      I vowed I would never say anything bad about anyone at work ever again.

      I’ve kept that vow and it has served me in good stead over the years. In the crowded cafeteria, when three women joined me at my solitary table and proceeded to whine and gripe about their department I resisted temptation. And later when we introduced ourselves, one of them was the daughter of my VP. A new co-worker turned out to be best friends with that difficult co-worker in the last group I was in. It has even served me well on something really unexpected: I was looking for an auto-service place in a new town and several people had warned me away from a particular garage with all kinds of bad examples. When a co-worker found out I was looking she recommended that same garage. I simply said I had selected another one already, without mentioning the horror storied I had heard. She said that was too bad since her uncle owned it and he would do a good job.

      I have plenty of other examples from my decades-long career and am still thankful that, painful as it was, I learned this lesson early on.

      1. Beezus*

        Yes! I did something very similar – in my first professional job, I was hired to do data entry for a team of analysts who had accumulated enough low-level work as a group that it made sense to hire someone very entry level to do it.

        None of the analysts were in the office one afternoon, and someone was urgently looking for one of them. He called back repeatedly – this was before cell phones were prevalent – and he gave me a little more grief each time, for not knowing where Jane was.

        I finally got to a good stopping point in my work, and decided to see if I could go find Jane. I headed out in what I thought was the most likely direction, and found Jane about ten minutes later, in a production office with a man I hadn’t met yet. I apologized for interrupting them, “but, Jane, some ******* named Waukeen is looking for you, and he won’t stop calling.” (I’d become friends with Jane by this time, and swearing was pretty prevalent in our environment. The statement itself was not as starkly outrageous as it sounds.)

        The man stepped forward, shook my hand, and said, “Hi, Beezus, I’m ‘some ******* named Waukeen.'”

        I picked my jaw up off the floor and stammered out an apology. He laughed at me. I flushed fire engine red every time I saw him for a month, and every time he laughed at me all over again. We all worked together for the next four years or so, became very good friends. I’m not going to win any awards for extreme professionalism, but I did learn to be more careful with my words and only speak freely if I was saying something I’d be comfortable standing behind, regardless of who overheard me. (It was not the last time I called Waukeen an *******, but he regularly earned the title.)

    20. Rat Racer*

      Oh honey – I have so many I could write a book called “what not to do at work.” Thinking back into my early twenties give me goosebumps of mortification. Here are a few gems:

      – In a large meeting, being asked to take notes on a whiteboard. I got bored and started drawing cartoon animals (cows, elephants, frogs). I thought I was being cute.

      – In job fresh out of grad school, got into a screaming fight with 80-year-old boss when job responsibilities changed from Grant Writer to high-school hall monitor. Of course, that did genuinely suck, but the strategy of getting on a soap box to say that I didn’t go to graduate school so that I could herd angry kids to class… (Oh please kill me now…)

      -Or how about the time I wore a shirt that had shrunk in the wash such that my belly showed if I lifted my arms. My very nerdy, awkward manager (a guy about 15 years older than me) had to tell me to go home and change. We were both mortified.

      – I did get called out once at a Government job for leaving a meeting to use the restroom. That, I maintain, was unfair.

    21. Elizabeth West*

      Bitched about my boss behind her back. It got back to her. She pulled me in and yelled at me. She didn’t fire me but she probably should have. I was young and stupid, though mostly stupid. :P

      1. Saz*

        Is there a difference between bitching about your boss and having legitimate complaints that you discuss with coworkers?
        I mean, I would find it very hard to work somewhere where disagreeing with your boss privately is something you could get fired for.

    22. Dasha*

      This may sound kind of tame but when I first entered the working world I thought all managers would be perfect and of course, handle things perfectly, legally, and professionally at all time. Seriously, I thought this!

    23. ZSD*

      It took me a while to be convinced that communication norms differed in office and academic settings. In my first office job, we had some people who just wouldn’t approve their travel receipts in our online system. After sending several reminder emails in a relatively polite manner, I finally wrote one of them and said, “Dude. Seriously. Approve your travel.”
      My manager was not thrilled.

    24. Katie the Fed*

      My high school job – we had a staff meeting once a month and it was after school hours. No interface with customers, and workwear was pretty casual, I just rolled in what I’d worn to school that day… and I was a senior in my last month and just didn’t give a f**k anymore.

      Yep, I wore a t-shirt and flannel pajama pants.

      I’m cringing just typing this.

    25. AnotherFed*

      I interned for a contractor that had some contracts renovating buildings, particularly some local and state government buildings. The first trip to one of the job sites was a group thing and the project manager wanted to introduce the government rep to all the summer interns, so he took everyone out to lunch on the company card – nothing special, maybe $10 a person. I thought this was normal for trips to the job site, so every time I went out there I kept trying to take the government person out to lunch, without realizing that was probably above the threshold for gifts she could ethically accept. I’m cringing as I type this!

      TL,DR: I accidentally tried to bribe an official.

    26. Winter*

      Inviting my boss’s boss to go out for a drink with me after work to discuss a work issue. Yup. I was coming from a world of tiny non-profits and it was my first corporate office job. I still shudder just thinking about it.

    27. Wander*

      For my first professional job, I consistently asked to leave when my job description said my shift was over. To make it worse, I had been warned in my interview that the job didn’t actually end at that time (though they were very vague about how often that was the case), and it was clear that no one else was ready to go. My supervisor let me, but it was pretty clear she wasn’t thrilled about it. I think I made up for it later (ie, worked hard enough to show that I’m not a complete slacker), but I still wince thinking about it.

  10. Sarah Nicole*

    At my old job, my manager had a great idea. The last person to celebrate their birthday would plan the next person’s birthday! So I celebrated in December and the next person on our team had a February birthday. I got a card, passed it around, and brought in a dessert, and I definitely didn’t mind because I knew that would be the only time for me to do it for the year.

    I’ll also mention that this was not a full lunch. We had a meeting time blocked off for 30 minutes where surprised the person and all sat around talking and having dessert. Then we went back to our work. It was the best celebratory work situation I’ve ever seen. Maybe you guys can try this?

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          You’re welcome! Good luck getting this figured out. For some reason situations like these can get over dramatic at lots of workplaces.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, but that doesn’t work so well when one person’s birthday is right next to another’s. So keep that in mind. If I have to plan the birthday celebration for the next person, and I have to spend my birthday doing so, because theirs is the day after mine…not so good.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            This doesn’t seem like an insurmountable problem. You just buy a card and make/buy treats the day before your birthday instead of on your birthday.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      In a former (very small) office we did this. It was great. We didn’t do cards, just treats. There were only 5 of us, so it wasn’t excessive (either in the number of times per year, or the amount of treats necessary per birthday).

      The one problem was that some folks were much better at this than others, so some people’s birthdays were consistently well celebrated and some were halfhearted. I had the primo spot, right behind a woman who loved to bake and try new things and would bring in amazing creations. My boss was stuck behind the guy who always forgot and would run to the corner store over lunch to buy sad cupcakes every year.

  11. Karowen*

    Inspired by Wakeen’s Teapots, Ltd. comments in the short answers thread:

    What’s your most ridiculous story of someone who gave their notice? Did they try to force you to hire their wife? Did they announce two months later that they were returning? Did they just decide to show up in their pajamas one day to see what you would do to them?

    I need a pick-me-up today, please help a sister out!

    1. Nerdling*

      I don’t have a good story about this, but now I desperately want to be KMA so I can show up in PJs.

    2. Excel Geek*

      I had a coworker who slid his badge under the boss’s door in an envelope that said “I quit!”
      At a different company there was a guy who just stopped showing up after about a month. It then turned out he had done the same thing at his prior 2 companies but wasn’t there long enough to even include them on his resume.

    3. some1*

      I guess I don’t have many funny stories of the manner of the resigntion, but I have seen a few times where people quit with little or no notice claiming extenuating circumstances when they just got another job. Bizarre.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Ugh. Someone in our organization did this. They claimed they couldn’t give the full notice stipulated in their contract due to health reasons…and then their LinkedIn showed them in a new job a few days later. (I wasn’t stalking them, I swear, it was one of those “LinkedIn thinks you might now this person” deals.)

        1. some1*

          At a retail job my part-time coworker resigned claiming to have been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome and she *had* to quit. She started hostessing in the restaurant around the corner from us that was a theme place with am employee uniform in the mall within a couple of days and had to walk past our store to get to hers from the entrance — did she think we would forget what she looked like?

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, we just had someone quit like that. She had a vacation booked, so she gave “2 weeks notice”, but 6 working days of that was vacation. So really just 4 days. She drug her feet and complained all four of those days, and then she told everyone that she was being “forced” out when the reality was that she wasn’t willing or able to meet the terms of her PIP.

    4. Geek007*

      I’m a front desk manager at a hotel who’s currently working on BA #2 (english major the first time, big mistake on my part). Former employee quit during finals week which I can’t control, however she keyed “F rhymes with duck this job I $&@#ing quit” into the shuttle van. 4 days before a big group of VIPs including our owner were scheduled to visit. And then showed up for work drunk. She was told to go home and is currently banned from property. So I spent my finals week dealing with a very irate owner, a rented shuttle van, and getting the damage repaired.

      1. Camellia*

        At my job “key it in” means to type something in to the system. So I’m thinking she entered this into one of those digital displays that you see on buses to announce their next destination and the VIPs saw it flashing there. And wondering why it took you four days to key in something else…sooooo glad it’s Friday!

        2. Geek007*

          The idiot used a screwdriver to put some nice deep scratches into the paint job. It cost us $2500 ish to repair it, and the company threatened legal action and would have followed through had her parents not paid for it. She had the nerve to use us as a reference, which didn’t go over well. The hospitality world is a small one and it got around quickly what she did.

      2. ZSD*

        That is a very long message to write with a key. She certainly had patience while telling you off.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      A receptionist quit without notice but expected to be paid for an additional two weeks! (In rare cases, we’ll pay a departing employee’s entire notice period but ask them to leave sooner – usually for a business or security reason. Somehow the receptionist assumed this automatically applied to her.)

      Two months later, she reapplied for a management position, stating that her new job had turned out to be temporary but that she’d gained valuable experience that qualified her for management.

      SMH.

      2. some1*

        Oh! I forgot about the former coworker who resigned, refused to train her replacement, and filed for UI.

    6. Delyssia*

      At an old job, a director level person was brought in as my boss. Her first day was a Friday. On Monday, she didn’t show up. She finally contacted the president of the company in the afternoon and said (roughly) “thanks for meeting with me on Friday. After more consideration, I’ve decided that this role isn’t right for me.” That seems like a great response after an interview or an offer, not your first day of work!

      1. anonForThis*

        I had a co-worker, who when he left the job, told me casually that he had accepted multiple job offers. I keep hoping that’s not really what he meant, but I wonder if for all but one of the jobs, he did something like that.

    7. Ama*

      I guess technically she didn’t give notice but I once had a boss that didn’t show up one morning, and then had her “mom” (it’s entirely possible it was her using her mother’s email) email that she’d been hospitalized due to a car accident. We didn’t hear from her for two days and when we attempted to contact her mom asking what hospital she was in so we could send flowers, she called in herself and flipped out on us claiming we didn’t trust her and were checking up on her. Which of course, prompted us *to* check up on her and of course, she was faking the whole thing. She then pleaded a nervous breakdown and was allowed to resign before anyone investigated any further, which was a mistake.

      Come to find out, she was supposed to be audited by our finance department that week and knew they’d find a number of questionable practices and expenses, so she had been attempting to buy herself time to wipe her work laptop and destroy files (which was only about 30% successful, although over a year later we’d still occasionally have a vendor pop up that had never been paid because she incurred the expense without anyone else knowing. I’m still not entirely sure whether her ultimate plan was to recover and return once she’d destroyed the evidence or if she was going to resign while she “recovered” from the accident.

    8. C Average*

      I used to do coaching for the consumer service agents who answered my company’s phone and email contacts. I’d randomly pick a call, pull up the video and audio capture for it, review it, make some notes, and then meet with the agent and go over it again together. I oversaw a great team of agents and really enjoyed this part of my job; it wasn’t anything stressful or high-pressure for anyone ever.

      Except for this one time, when the video capture for one of our best agents consisted of her listening to the call while composing, in her personal Gmail, her acceptance letter for another job somewhere else. That’s how I found out she was leaving us. I had to start that coaching session with, “Uh, Jane? Is there anything you’d like to share with me before we get started?”

      Awkward.

    9. Bru*

      I’m going through something a little strange right now. I’ve been at my current job about 6 months, overall it hasn’t been a great fit… my manager has been really bad about training my co-worker and I (we are a group of 3 people including our boss), he has a bear-claw hold on things so doesn’t delegate anything. I’ve tried talking to him and telling him that I have time to do more… but no change.

      Anyways long story short I got offered an opportunity that would cut my commute from 1+ hour one-way to 15min one-way, higher salary, comparable benefits, and very renown company. So I accepted and I am waiting for background check and all that to clear before giving notice.

      Then on Tuesday he pulls my coworker and I into a room and tells us he resigned and his last day is this Friday! He was an associate director who had been with the company for 14 years! So now, my poorly trained co-worker and I are left to keep things afloat and I feel terrible about giving my notice soon…. good times.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Don’t feel terrible. Your manager created the poor situation, not you. Congrats on the new job!

    10. CupcakesAbound*

      I used to work in a library and someone resigned by sending a note through the overnight book drop-off. She had been working there about two weeks. It’s one of the most interesting things we ever got in that drop box and that’s saying something. :)

    11. Lady Bug*

      At old job we hired someone right before Thanksgiving, who was going to start in January due to holiday shutdowns. Boss called her in December to confirm she was ready to start in January. Yep, everything is fine, see you after the holidays. January comes, but the new employee never shows up. We called her that day, but she never answered. She finally returned our call the next day and told us her job made her a counteroffer and she decided to stay. The kicker, she applied for another job at our company six months later!!!!!!! I was tempted to call her job to let them know she’d be asking for another raise soon.

    12. BRR*

      I replaced someone who emailed their boss on a Sunday night at around 11:00 pm they weren’t coming in the next day or ever again. Not terribly exciting, just super unprofessional.

    13. Amethyst*

      The person who had my job before me turned in her two-weeks notice on the morning of the busiest day of the week. A couple hours later she said she actually couldn’t stay any longer and walked out that moment, leaving my coworker alone in the office to handle everything and also tell our boss later (who was in a meeting at the time).

    14. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      It’s not all that funny, but one of my favorites is my older sister. She quit her first job (fast food) by leaving for lunch one day and just not coming back.

      The best part is that she was re-hired a year or so later (same management team). Maybe twice. And I got a job at the same place a couple years after on her reference.

    15. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      My husband once had an employee get into a car accident on his way to work. He then showed up BLEEDING FROM THE HEAD and insisted he was fine. After a few minutes my husband realized this guy was actually drunk and insisted the guy go home. He fired him on his next shift.

      I also heard a story about a teller who quit without notice and sent her friend through the drive thru to give the manager her keys. That one had me laughing.

      1. MrsL*

        I have a personal story similar to that one. Although it has nothing to do with quitting a job, rather starting a new job.

        I was taking the bike on my first day to my new job. A grain of sand gets in my eye and I try to get rid of it, as best I can, with little to no success. I ignore it and get to work. Come lunch, my eye is totally swollen and red, and tears keep coming out. I tell my manager, ” I am fine”. I don’t want to leave early on my first day of work! But I was obviously not fine and they convinced me to go see a doctor. I ended up leaving early and going to the emergency room. I had to wear an eye patch for a few days due to a tear in my cornea. Ouch!

        1. the gold digger*

          I had a wreck on my bicycle on my way to to work two weeks after starting a new job. Might have lost consciousness – ended up at ER with a huge bruise on my face and six stitches in my eyebrow. I looked like someone had beaten me up.

          (Actually, in the ER, they asked me, while my husband sat next to me, if I “felt safe at home.” I didn’t get what they were saying for a while, but then said, “I fell off my bike!” Like I would have answered that question honestly if my husband had beaten me up!)

          Anyhow, I was at work by 1:00. I thought, “I am brand new! I have no political capital. I cannot take a sick day two weeks after starting!”

      2. cd*

        That first story makes me think concussion – if you see someone with an obvious head injury behaving as if drunk, your first thought should be to get them a ride to the hospital, not send them home and fire them. (If he realized the guy was drunk by smelling alcohol or something, rather than based on erratic behavior, that’s different, but still.)

        1. QualityControlFreak*

          Me too. I was in an accident on my way to work last year and suffered a tbi from my side airbag. I have no memory of a certain time period but evidently I was worried about someone having to call in for me at work. Paramedic apparently thought I was a pita as he commented (to my son, who was in the accident with me but was uninjured) “you can’t cure stupid.” I’m far from stupid, but a brain injury can present that way. Or as if the person is drunk, I imagine. But I went first class air to the local trauma center and my spouse called and reported to my boss.

        2. Mallorie, the recruiter*

          Oh yes, sorry – should have made that more clear. Guy reeked of alcohol. Hubs said it seemed like the guy had been up all night drinking, disheveled, dirty clothes, etc.

    16. Elizabeth West*

      At one place I worked, a consultant got into a screaming argument with our boss and walked out, never to return. We knew they didn’t see eye-to-eye, but it was so shocking that we all tiptoed around like frightened mice for a week.

    17. april ludgate*

      I worked at a large Walmart-like retail store in high school and one of the employees was asked to clean up some poop that was in the fitting room (which was unfortunately not an uncommon occurrence). He said, “I can’t I just clocked out for lunch.” Then he left for his lunch and never came back.

    18. attornaut*

      Someone claimed that they couldn’t find the office, so they just never came in again. Who knows why google maps was not an option.

        1. Karowen*

          That’s what I was wondering! They found it by accident the first time and couldn’t figure out how to get back, maybe?

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        We lost someone that way when the company moved two blocks.

        TRUE STORY.

        What was even funnier is, we were so busy with the move, we didn’t notice she was missing for a few days. (Temp to hire, she’d been with us about a month. I’d specifically said hi and see you in the new place to her late the Friday prior.)

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            We don’t usually lose staff members for multi days without noticing. but moving an entire company over the course of a weekend to open 8 am Monday with two floors of people and a warehouse functional was a little preoccupying.

            And as a temp, she wasn’t in our time system.

            Plus! It’s not as if anybody knew where anybody else’s cubes were to notice. We literally did not notice.

            Priceless.

    19. Cath in Canada*

      I used to work with a grad student about whom I have SO MANY stories of inappropriate behaviour. She eventually got let go for repeated abuse of all-staff email lists (sending club night fundraiser posters to everyone in the whole organisation – hundreds and hundreds of people – even after being read the riot act after her first offense).

      She informed everyone of her “resignation” in a team meeting with fairly good grace, considering. She then went straight to Facebook and ranted about how terrible we all were and how much she hated us and how she’d never fitted in and we just couldn’t handle someone who thought differently. She’d friended pretty much the whole department, so we all saw it, and multiple people showed it to managers.

      This is the same person who asked me where the showers were the first time I met her – fair enough question, everyone knows I cycle to work and shower when I get there – and while I was showing her, told me all about the one-night-stand she’d just had with a guy she’d met in a bar at 2 am the night before and who “didn’t have a shower in his apartment”, asked to borrow some shampoo (which I gave her), moaned about her hangover, and then asked to borrow my towel (I did not give her my towel). The second time I met her she came to my desk with a textbook and asked if I had a minute. I said “no, sorry, I’m on deadline for a grant that’s due in an hour, but I might be able to help you later”. She said “oh it won’t take long”, sat down, opened the book, and started asking me some really, really, basic (first year undergrad stuff) about a technique that she’d told the boss she knew how to use for her project. She was astonished when I told her to leave.

      Things did not get better with subsequent exposure to her. Everyone else agreed – I even heard a genuinely lovely colleague, who no-one had ever heard say a bad word about anyone else ever before, call her some very colourful names.

      We did not miss her when she flamed out.

      1. AMT*

        Ugh. Grad students can be tricky to deal with because you never know where they are in their knowledge of basic workplace etiquette. They could be seasoned professionals or just out of undergrad, and their age isn’t always an indicator, either. In grad school for social work, I served on a committee that decided whether a student’s performance or behavior was enough to get them suspended or expelled. I saw some crazy things. A student filing a false police report about a gunman. A student having his girlfriend (a psychiatrist!) falsify a doctor’s note. A student sending bizarre, threatening emails to his internship supervisor. Stuff that you’d think a high schooler would know not to do.

        I’ll be helping hire and supervise interns this year at my current job and my boss ominously told me that they’ve had some “really bad ones” this year. I’m crossing my fingers that I don’t have to be a witness at one of these committee hearings!

    20. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There was a legendary story about a guy who got a job in my department a few years before I did. During the interview, he told the manager that he was responsible for his younger sister because their dad had died, so he sometimes required flexibility to get her to school, attend events, etc. The manager was a real soft touch and this appealed to her. She hired him (he was also qualified, but his story earned him many points in her eyes). He showed up, trained for a morning, then went to lunch and never came back. Everyone looked for him. Three days later, he emailed to apologize and said he freaked out and was sorry he wasted everyone’s time. It also turned out that his father was very much alive and he doesn’t have a little sister.

      This is weird and sad on its own. Then he applied for every available similar position in the company for the next couple of years, GOT ONE, then moved over to another arm of our department. How the guy was ever eligible for hire is anyone’s guess. I know he got his stuff together, and he’s actually not a bad guy, but it was SO WEIRD to look the “legend” in the face. I can’t even imagine what his manager-for-less-than-a-day thought of the whole thing.

    21. Sabrina*

      I guess my story isn’t all that entertaining compared to others! :) In college I worked at a Big Box Retailer in the mall. I closed, which was a pain in the butt. The mall closed around 9, and we didn’t get out of there until 10. I had morning classes, so that just sucked. I had found a new job (or so I thought, but that’s another story) and put in my two weeks notice. Right after I turned that in they hired a new manager for my department who was a jerk. He was just mean and would argue with you that the sky is blue and even if you agreed with him he’d be all “No! It’s blue! You don’t understand.” Luckily he had a different shift than me and we only worked at the same time for a couple of hours a day. Except my very last day, he closed. And he was an ass. We got into it after closing. Something else I was trying to agree with him on and he kept telling me I was wrong. Finally he just yelled at me “You can leave, now!” I said “Fine! Great!” and I left. Clocked out, left my name badge on the store managers desk, and went home. Early for once.

    22. Jaune Desprez*

      I briefly worked with a colleague whom no one liked or trusted, and deservedly so. She wasn’t particularly good at her job, and she used to boast about things like committing food stamp fraud and keying the cars of people who had annoyed her. I suspect she was invited to resign, but at any rate, she eventually did so. She called in sick for Monday through Thursday of her last week of work, and then showed up on Friday and was tremendously miffed that we hadn’t scheduled a going away party for her.

      A couple of months later, she sent us all an email inviting us to contribute to the expenses for her upcoming third wedding. We weren’t invited to attend — just to send money. It was a tough offer to refuse, but somehow I managed to keep my money in my wallet.

    23. Laura Beth*

      We went through a string of not-intended-to-be temporary employees (admin/receptionist types) about 2 years after I started in my law practice, but the “best” one was the lady who quit at the end of her first or second week, via email. She told me that I didn’t deserve her respect because I “didn’t bother to show up to the office every day” (I was going through some pretty severe health issues, and worked remotely most days). She also accused us of basically paying slaves wages (more than minimum wage) despite the fact that the conversation she took issue with literally started with me saying, “You have much better skills than we thought, so we are going to give you a raise at the end of your probationary period.” There were a couple other gems in her email, but those were the two that stood out. I composed a LOT of replies in my head, but thankfully maintained my own professionalism and never sent any :)

      We also had another employee who was planning to leave for months, but we didn’t find out til we found her resume scanned to our shared server. It wouldn’t have been such a huge deal if she hadn’t spent those months promising us she would be sticking around/available due to some other office issues we were having (another employee out on medical leave, and the beginning of the revolving door of new people coming in, in a 3 employee office).

  12. Christy*

    I’m on a 180-day detail to another office within my government agency. This office (and other associated offices) loves me and wants to find a way to bring me over permanently.

    I’m currently a GS-11, detailed up to a GS-12. (I’m a program analyst so the 0343 series.) I’m currently working at the level of a GS-13 or GS-14. Seriously, everyone who does what I do is at least a GS-13.

    Can I suggest or hint or push for being hired on a career ladder? I obviously can’t apply for GS-13 jobs because I don’t have the time in grade at a GS-12. Does the government ladder up to a GS-13? The new group is flat and top-heavy, and I’d likely be at my hired grade for a while, and I’ve been told by senior managers that I’m performing at that level.

    Let’s be serious, I’d be happy to get the 12 permanently, but I’m also interested in advancing past that.

    KatietheFed? Other feds?

    1. Christy*

      And I’m going out to lunch with my old office, so I won’t be here to respond for about 1.5 hours, if anyone has follow-up questions for me. (Also, I meant Katie the Fed, not all slurred together.)

    2. Nerdling*

      What you may have to do is spend time in the GS-12 grade to make your time-in-grade bump to a 13, but they may be able to push you to, say, a 12 step 9 or 10 to bring your pay closer in line to a 13. However, they may not do that because, so many times in government work, it’s based as much on whether you fit the requirements (which frequently include time-in-grade or equivalent job experience). When you say everyone who does what you do is at least a GS-13, you mean you know for sure that they get paid at that level? Or do you just mean that’s the equivalent level, you all feel, for the work being done?

      Here’s why I ask: In my organization, the ladder goes up to a GS-15; above that and it transitions into SES pay instead of GS pay. However, that GS-15 isn’t the top for all job roles; each job role has its own niche within that scale. Mine runs GS-7 to GS-14. The supervisory position over mine is a GS-15. Others run GS-10 to GS-13. Some run GS-3 to GS-9. It just depends on what the organization/government has set as the pay range for that role.

      1. Christy*

        I know they are all paid at that level–we can see everyone’s series and grade on the internal directory. We are all analysts, which goes from a GS-7 up to a GS-14 for nearly everyone, and up to GS-15 for like >1% of people.

        And from my understanding, if they promote me, I have to start at a Step 1. Does anyone know if that’s incorrect?

        1. Nerdling*

          It depends on where you were in the previous grade. If getting the grade bump to the next grade step 1 would put you below your current salary, then generally they will bump you to the appropriate step to keep you roughly in line with your current pay. We had someone change job roles recently, as an example. In the previous role, this employee had been, say, a GS-9 Step 8. The job role change meant the employee was coming into that role as a GS-10, but since a 10 Step 1 paid less than the 9 Step 8, the employee got bumped to a GS-10 Step 3. [Step/Grade comparisons not exact and used for illustration purposes only.]

          Otherwise, if it will be an increase in salary or keep you mostly the same, you’ll likely have to start at a Step 1.

          1. Christy*

            It’s definitely an increase in salary (I’m only a Grade 11 Step 3 in my permanent job) so that’s what I was afraid of. Thanks.

    3. Case of the Mondays*

      Are you unionized? One fed job I’m aware of requires certain levels of work to be performed by certain grades and if you do above grade work for a certain number of days you have to receive that grade’s pay. They avoid this by counting the days and taking cases away from you just as you approach the limit. I’m pretty sure it only came about because of the union though so it might be limited to that department.

      1. Christy*

        Interesting! Here, they will occasionally temporarily promote you within your office, but honestly what most often happens is that you get the temporary promotion, work for 180 days, and then when they can’t keep you promoted anymore they put you back down a level and you just keep doing the same work. It would be a union grievance if anyone tried for it but most people don’t.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      The ladder is different at different agencies, and it can change. When I started, you could ladder up to a 12, then apply for 13s. It was later changed to ladder up to a 13, then there were too many 13s, so they went back to the 12. So it depends how things work in your agency and what the requirements are.

      As far as this though: “Can I suggest or hint or push for being hired on a career ladder?” – You have nothing to lose by trying, or at least ask what you’d need to do to be promoted to a 12 or 13, especially if you stay with this new office.

    5. attornaut*

      Definitely depends on the position. I don’t think it’d be presumptuous, however, to make it clear that you are absolutely fine with starting at a 12 but asking what the promotion potential to 13 is. I’d be very surprised if most of the people in that type of position are actually at a 14, tbh.

      1. Christy*

        My organization, when you get into the central offices, is actually pretty flat. In my home office, there are nine 14s, four 13s, one 12, one 11, two 9s (one is a secretary and the other, like me, was hired from an internship–the difference being I have a masters and she doesn’t). Literally a majority of us are 14s.

        In my new office, it’s more of a variety–you have a bunch of 9s and a bunch of 13s/14s. I would likely be hired to an adjacent office to my new office (because that’s where they’ll have hiring authority and that’s where my skills best align) and in that office, it’s a pretty even mix of 13s, 14s, and 15s, with a plurality of 14s.

        This ended up sounding really defensive. I didn’t mean for it to! I just wanted to provide the numbers.

  13. GymNast*

    Probably a rookie question, but here it goes: How do you give examples of work in interviews when your work is confidential?

    In my current job, I work with confidential information for products before they become available to the public. I had to sign several confidentiality forms when I began working here. I’ve recently started interviewing, and I’m struggling a bit with how to answer some basic questions (like “give me an example of a time you dealt with a crisis”) without giving away any information (our clients are sometimes in the news, so sometimes even a vague description can be enough to recognize them.) I’m also finding that potential employers don’t love vague answers and want me to be more specific, but I’m not sure how much more specific I can be. Any advice on walking the line?

    1. Sascha*

      Do you tell them up front that the nature of your work is confidential, and therefore you have to be vague about the exact details? I’d state that and then go with a Chocolate Teapot approach, if you can.

    2. squids*

      Do the interviewers know that so much of your work is confidential? Showing discretion, and being able to anonymize your examples sufficiently, would I think work in your favour as much as having the perfect example. Sharing information you shouldn’t would be a bigger red flag.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yeah I would just not give specific names and explain that what you do is confidential so you can only give limited info.

      2. Xarcady*

        This. You should be able to make the actual product and client anonymous, and focus on the crisis itself. It doesn’t (or shouldn’t) really matter that the product that the client changed the name on three times before it hit the stores and as a result left your company scrambling to redo all the [whatever it is your company does] was a video game or toothpaste or a pair of shoes. How you handled the crisis of, for example, having print and TV and radio ads all set to go with now-incorrect information and only two days to change them is what matters.

        Here’s an example from a former job. When I worked at a translation agency, a client sent us two words to translate into 40 languages, with a 2 day turnaround, which was tighter than you would think. Without context, the two words made no sense and couldn’t be translated. The client did not want to reveal the nature of the product, because there was nothing like it on the market and they wanted total secrecy until they launched it. [Details about having to get our translators and all employees in the office to sign new non-disclosure agreements, the owners of the business having to agree to severe financial penalties if word leaked out, my having to warn all the translators over and over again not to say anything, etc.] Then having to deal with font issues for several of the languages, typesetting issues, proofing issues. And we still managed to ship the job on time.

        So, crisis averted. But can you tell what the product or the company was?

    4. Nerdling*

      Tailor your examples to focus on the process rather than the products. So, “We had a client who wanted to achieve X goal but had an extremely short deadline, approximately half the time a normal job of that nature would require. In order to achieve the result needed, I did A, B, and C (where you focus on the skills you used, maybe in time management or rallying people to work together or streamlining a process, etc). This resulted in reducing the amount of time needed by half so that we could meet their deadline and still provide a satisfactory product. They were able to do Y, which led them to achieve X.”

    5. Edited so boss doesn't know I'm looking*

      I deal with this too. What I do is give a tad more info than I’m actually comfortable doing so that the story makes sense but still keeping everything as anonymous as possible. So, as an example I’d say something like “My work is confidential so I have to be careful how I say this and I am going to make it as anonymous as possible. I represent a municipality and they had a problem with their police department over an officer violating a policy that would normally have to be reported to an oversight agency but . . . ”

      So in normal hang out with friends conversation I wouldn’t give this much detail. In an interview, where they should be keeping your responses confidential anyway, where there are 100’s of municipalities and 100’s more police officers and I didn’t say which policy was violated and which agency it would have to be reported to then I feel I’m fine.

    6. AnotherFed*

      Lots of government people end up with a similar problem. It’s really hard to both come up with your answer and then try to scrub it for information you shouldn’t reveal in real time. One thing that helps a lot is to think through potential situational interview questions in advance – maybe write the responses out, or practice on a friend. That way you can take the time to figure out how to get enough information into the story to make it coherent but still keep it sufficiently anonymous without the stress of trying to do that in the interview itself.

  14. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I had an interview yesterday where the interviewer was totally unclear on what he job would entail (“we haven’t really figured that out yet”) or what it would pay (“we don’t know what we can pay or even a ballpark”) and asked me about four times “Do you think you can do this job?”

    The cherry on top was when she asked me “Would your husband let you take a job like this? Would he mind?” And then “do you have kids? Because if you have kids, you can’t do this job.”

    Thanks, I’ll show myself out.

    2. Jules*

      Wow… takes the cake… “Would your husband let you take a job like this?” Erm… does that mean I can send my husband in to negotiate salary for me too?

      1. Molly*

        At that point I would have pulled out my cell phone and said, “That’s a good question. Hang on a second and I’ll call and ask him what he thinks. … Hi, Honey! I’m in a job interview, and my interviewer has a question, I’ll put you on speaker…”

    5. C Average*

      “I carry a 00 number. Of course I can do this job. The question is, do I want to accept the mission? I don’t believe I do, thank you.”

      (Yes, there was another Bond marathon on recently.)

    6. Dang*

      I’d be looking for the hidden camera and assuming someone was pranking me! Yikes, that’s really awful!

      1. Karowen*

        At that point I would probably actually start looking. As in, laugh, get up and start staring into the corners, moving leaves around in the potted plants, etc. Because they may as well get a good story out of it, too.

    7. Nerdling*

      “No, he wouldn’t let me take a job like this, because he feels I should have more respect for myself than that.”

    8. Nanc*

      Sounds like you dodged a bullet, no, wait, a canon ball, ah heck, a giant missile! Do they even know what they make/sell/grow?

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      So, now I’m trying to figure out what kind of job it is too. You can’t do it if you have kids. Does that work for the men too? People whose kids are grown and out of the house? Since you’d need the spouse’s buy-in, is it something like working on a fishing boat or isolated island for 5 years without trips home?

      What job is not possible to do if you have kids?

        1. AnotherFed*

          Maybe the interviewer was trying to warn you that the specialty meat retailer was owned by former Belgian paratroopers? I seem to recall there was a unit that roasted children as a rite of initiation back in the 90s.

        2. Windchime*

          I wonder if that means you’d be the person driving around my neighborhood with a truck full of steaks and a sad story about how your boss bought too many and do I want a good deal on them?

        3. catsAreCool*

          My mom has told me about a time, probably in the late 70’s, when she applied for a job, and the interviewer, finding she had kids, refused to hire her, saying that she should stay home with the kids.

          It’s bad enough it happened then (when really, people did know better), but to happen now?!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Maybe they are concerned about “mishaps” and they do not want to be responsible for someone becoming orphaned?

        I think the truth is that they have an inflated sense of what the job actually is.

    10. Malissa*

      Bullet dodged! I had an interview for a vague job. They couldn’t tell me what the job would entail. They really didn’t have questions to ask. They also never got back to me one way or another after the interview as promised–not that I really cared.

    11. Ama*

      I had a totally bizarre conversation with a woman I met at a conference who, after talking to me for all of ten minutes, told me I’d be perfect for a job she had which she very vaguely described (“it would be assisting me, but you’re not really my *assistant* and there’s a lot of writing…”). I asked if she could email me a job description. “Oh, there isn’t one, it’s very undefined like I just said.” I added that I’d need to speak with my SO because her job was on the opposite coast from where I currently live. Her face totally collapsed, and she gave a hasty excuse about “giving you time to think about it — I’ll have HR email you” and walked away. HR has not emailed me.

      I was probably not going to take that job anyway (I could tell by talking with her that she would be the kind of manager who would drive me crazy), but watching her mentally cross me off because I was unable to say whether I could take a job on the other side of the country within 2 minutes of even knowing the job existed was both hilarious and baffling.

    16. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      You made that up just to give me something jaw dropping to read from you again this week.

      I appreciate your effort! (and: wow)

    17. Windchime*

      Would my husband take a job like this? I don’t know; you still haven’t told me what the job is.

  15. LostTrainee*

    My coworker is leaving for a new job next week, and I’ve been getting trained on some of the things she does. I always knew it was hard to communicate with her, but getting trained is seriously one of the most frustrating experiences I’ve ever had. She keeps saying, “Well, you can do this however you want,” and I’m like, “Can you please show me how YOU did it so I know how all the people you regularly communicate with are used to things working?” When I ask her a direct question about something she will answer a different question (“Who do you send this report to after you run it?” “You run the report yourself.”) I’m trying not to lose my temper with her because she’s a really nice person, but I feel like I’m losing my mind here.

    1. TeapotCounsel*

      Ah, yes. I remember this back from the days in which I took depositions. We call it the ATFQ problem (Answer the Question; I’ll let you fill in the F).
      There’s a substantial segment of the population that, for whatever reason, simply cannot answer a question directly. I consider a serious personality flaw.

    2. TeapotCounsel*

      For me, it would go like this:
      Q: Who do you send this report to after you run it?
      A: You run the report yourself.
      Q: Right. That’s not what I’m asking. What I’m asking is, “Who do you send this report to after you run it?”
      A: [Some other non-responsive answer]
      — at this point, do a factual reversal to get the answer you want —
      Q: Are you saying that the you send the report to Wakeen after you run it?
      A: No.
      Q: Are you sending it to Hortense?
      A: No. [frustrated]. I send it to Petunia.

      3. JB*

        Yes, this is how I would do this. I have a co-worker like this, and I’ve finally started saying, “that’s not what I’m asking. Listen to what I’m actually saying.” If the conversation is going especially circular, sometimes I will add, “look at me” before I say it because eye contact seems to help. It feels so so rude, but it works and ultimately the conversation is less frustrating for both of us. But I try to say it in as soft a tone so I can.

        1. LostTrainee*

          It’s encouraging just to know I’m not the only one dealing with this! It was making me feel crazy, like the words coming out of my mouth were somehow completely different than what I thought they were.

          1. Lizzie*

            I do this all the time when my students (mostly 1st and 2nd graders) can’t clearly communicate things to me. It works really well!

      4. catsAreCool*

        I usually try a different combination of words when I run into that. “OK, I run the report myself, then what do I do with it?” No idea why, and sometimes it takes a few different combos. And yeah, it’s annoying.

    3. TL -*

      Break it down into tiny little details and then build back up…
      Like, “So I run the report?”
      “Yes.”
      “And then the report is finalized in X type,”
      “Yes.”
      “And I send the final version to?”

      1. Karowen*

        I don’t know if it’s the reference to who’s on first earlier, the cadence or what, but I can picture this ending with the guy trying to send it to Naturally.

  16. Anon7*

    How do you find the motivation to go job-hunting in earnest?

    I’m graduating in a few months, and I know I ought to be looking for full-time work, but I just can’t seem to make myself do it. Writing custom cover letters and editing my resume just seems like too much effort. So, does anyone have any advice on how to get myself ramped up for job hunting and all that it entails?

      1. Anon7*

        I mean, I have a part-time job and some savings, so it’s not like I’m going to be living on the street if I don’t get one right away.

        It just seems like I ought to be looking for full-time work in my field before I’m out of the “new grad with fresh skills” window.

    2. The Office Admin*

      Think of the end game, not the slog through the job listings drudgery.
      You get a job! And money!
      Money is a good motivator for me, at least.

    3. Sunflower*

      I would commit to apply to 1-3 jobs a week. Once you apply to a couple, it gets SO much easier. The hardest part is starting. Job hunting has a weird thrill to it. Like the excitement of getting an interview is more than just excitement of the job, it’s a slight excitement of knowing your skills are valuable and desirable. Once you get a couple bites, you’ll want to keep up with it.

      Maybe also try to think of it like practice. Start with a couple jobs that you aren’t dying to do but are still interested in. That will take some of the pressure off and make it easier for you to do apps for the jobs you really want.

    4. gloria*

      This is old, old motivational advice so you may have already tried it, but break it up into manageable chunks, and give yourself the freedom to define “manageable” as absurdly small as makes it actually feel manageable! Like – “add 1 piece of new information to resume,” “revise 1 position on resume,” “identify 1 job to apply for,” “write first paragraph [or 100 words] of cover letter for company x,” etc. Slow & steady, you know? As a bonus, when I do this to get myself motivated to do things I really, really don’t want to do (from job hunting to cleaning my apartment to writing that super boring document), I often realize in the process that none of it is as horrible as I’m making it out to be, which brings down my resistance in the present and the future.

    5. Lunar*

      When I was a new grad there were definitely periods of time when I felt this way. I think a huge part of it is just knowing that you have to in order to pay rent and all that good stuff. But what helped me during times when I was really discouraged and not feeling it was just doing one thing per day. Sending out one application, emailing one contact, going to an interview. Just doing one thing per day kept the momentum going but I didn’t feel too overwhelmed on days when I couldn’t face everything. Obviously, you can’t only do one thing every day (your job hunt would take forever), but it helped me get through rough patches.

    6. Beebs*

      In a way it can be like homework, you don’t really want to do it, but you should and you also want to do it well. Since you are still in school this habit is still fresh with you. Also, I save every cover letter I write and after a while you will have quite a bit of content to work with highlighting various skills and achievements you have, so you can copy and paste chunks of text and then just modify the details to personalize it to the job/company.

    7. Colette*

      I set myself deadlines – I.e. “I have to do X this week” where X is apply to three jobs or update my resume or whatever step is next.

    8. Violet Rose*

      I kept talking myself out of applying for jobs (“That one’s too far”, “I’m not qualified,” etc.), until I recruited a friend to help.

      Me: [Friend’s name], I’ve picked out four jobs to apply to tomorrow. Don’t let me back out!
      Friend: If you do all four, I’ll take you out for ice cream.

      It worked! External accountability, plus the promise of ice cream, was the extra nudge I needed. (Also, *definitely* save cover letters – I shamelessly re-used whole chunks, depending on what was mentioned in the ad listing.)

    9. Marina*

      External accountability is a great idea. If you have friends who are graduating around the same time, set up job hunting check ins. Even just someone to text to say “oo I found this one I want to apply for” is handy.

      I also use the website HabitRPG to give me some external reinforcement. I set up daily tasks and habits related to job hunting (spend 20 minutes on an application, check these five websites for postings, etc) and get gold coins and experience points for it. ;)

      1. Anon7*

        I love that website! Somehow it never occurred to me to include job hunting tasks on there, too. I might have to give that a try, along with all the other ideas people have suggested. I think the external motivation might be key for me. :)

      2. Ama*

        I love HabitRPG! I didn’t start using it until after I got my current job, but if I ever start looking again that’s a good idea. I bet you could find enough people job hunting over there to start a guild and create a resume submission challenge.

    10. AmyNYC*

      There was Freakonomics recently on “temptation bundling” – basically, if you save a special reward for doing things you don’t like, you’ll eventually think of the two together. The example they used what watching your favorite TV show ONLY while you work out, so is there a reward you can give yourself only after you send out X amount of resumes?
      From Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt – “You can handle anything for 10 seconds” Figure out what your concentration limit is, set a timer and do work in short bursts, then take a break and do it again. It’s easier to focus in short bursts rather than think I have AAAAAALLLLLLLLL this stuff to do.

      1. Anonsie*

        I can’t do the reward thing like that, because I know full well I can have those things whenever I want and no one is stopping me.

        Like Hyperbole and a Half: “You can’t have any chocolate chips until you do the thing.”

        “I can, though.”

    11. Another English Major*

      External accountability is what helped me. It sounds corny but a group of us all in the same boat treated it like a study group. We would meet up about once or twice a month to work on resumes, cover letters, apply to jobs, and bounce wording off each other.

      It really helped me stay motivated to keep working on the job search on my own. Also agree that saving each cover latter is a huge time saver.

      As far as editing resumes for each job, any time I make a change, the change also gets added to a “master” resume that includes everything I’ve done. That way when I come across positions looking for different requirements, I can cut/paste from one document instead of wading through all the different versions.

    12. april ludgate*

      I made a playlist (I named it my “inspiration” playlist) that was about an hour long with songs that made me feel like taking on the world and I would sit down and work for as long as it was playing. Having an upbeat, optimistic soundtrack kept me from wanting to give up completely. My personal favorite on the list is the queer as folk proud remix there’s one line that says “you could be so many people if you make the break for freedom” and that became a sort of mantra when I was filling out endless applications.

      It also didn’t hurt that I was living at home and my parents were constantly asking about my job search, to the point that I banned it as a topic of conversation at dinner, because I dreamed of the day they’d stop nagging me about it.

    13. Ruthan*

      First of all, kudos to you for even *thinking* about applying for jobs before graduation. I was so mentally unprepared for Life After College that I changed my major at the eleventh hour so I’d have to stay another year.

      Now, hear these words:
      Somewhere out there is a job that you’ll love so much that you’ll daydream about it when you’re not at work and procrastinate on writing a review on Glassdoor because you’re not sure your words can do it justice and they only let you give 5 stars anyway.

      Will you know it right away when you find it? Maybe, maybe not.
      Will it be your first job? Maybe, maybe not.
      Will you *ever* find it if you don’t start looking? Nope! So GO FORTH AND FIND THAT JOB.

      /pep talk

  17. Retail Lifer*

    Is it NOT OK to ask about health insurance in an interview? I touched on this as a comment in a post the other day, and now I’m a little freaked out because of the answers. I’m not in a field where there is much possibility for negotiating a salary, and I’m finding huge differences in the costs of health insurance. Some companies I’m interested in have a decent plan for as low as $80 a month while others only have one option that’s upwards of $300 a month. At the salary range I’m in, $300 a month is an absolute dealbreaker and I want to take myself out of the running for that position as soon as possible to save everyone time. Interviewers always give a quick rundown of the company and benefits in an interview, so is it actually inappropriate at that time to inquire more about insurance?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I totally understand wanting to ask before because I have a whole bunch of health issues and actually use my insurance. Plus, you do want to know if the total compensation is competitive with what you’re currently making. That being said, I think it’s better to ask once you’ve actually been offered the position but maybe it would be an exception if they bring it up first. I probably wouldn’t get into specific details unless I’d been offered the job, though.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yep, I would say that won’t even do you much good until you get an offer anyway. What if the job pays $15K more than you thought, but has no insurance? That is probably enough for you to pay for it yourself on the exchange.

        So once you get an offer, that and other benefits are what you’ll need to find out whether the whole package is a good deal or not.

        1. The Toxic Avenger*

          Yes, I agree. I know it has to be really stressful not knowing until you are right down to it, but (fair or not), it doesn’t reflect well on you if you bring up stuff like that during an interview.

          1. Retail Lifer*

            I get it, and I’ll follow this advice. However, I went through three rounds of interviews for a job a couple years ago, didn’t ask about insurance until the offer was made, and then turned it down because $300 a month is way too steep, and that’s the same as I’d be paying on the exchange. Seems like a waste of time to wait until then to ask, to save everyone from wasting all that time in interviews, but if it’s turning people off, then I will.

            1. CrazyCatLady*

              I can understand that it would be frustrating to find out the insurance cost is a deal-breaker. I wonder if you’d be able to negotiate a higher pay in situations like that? It seems like by 3 rounds of interviews, they would have mentioned benefits.

              Insurance can definitely make or break a job offer for me though (not just the cost, but the quality of the plan). It’s just as important as salary as so I do wish employers would be more transparent about this so they didn’t waste anyone’s time (including their own).

    2. fposte*

      In general, I wouldn’t ask during the interview–it raises too many questions about why you’d need to know, and while some of those questions are illegal to consider, you’re still better off unnecessarily raising them.

      However, if you’re in a field where people regularly do give you a rundown on benefits, including insurance, during interviews, I think that when they say “We have Utopia Alliance insurance,” it’s okay to glide “Oh, do you know their rate?” into the conversation (but not if that’s the only question you ask). They may not know, and I wouldn’t push for it if they don’t for the above reasons, but it’s a low-key way to get the question in earlier.

        1. fposte*

          If only my psychic powers had allowed me to know what you were going to post in the future :-).

    3. INTP*

      I wouldn’t get too in-detail over it in early interviews. I think it’s fine to ask a general question about what the benefits are, but in my experience they will often say something like “We cover 75% of the health insurance” and I would not try to find out more details about what that remaining 25% actually adds up to. (Largely because they probably haven’t memorized the insurance chart and answering that would require a bit of research, which is fine to expect at the offer stage but might make you look high maintenance at an early interview.) It will take some pushing to find out what the insurances cost and cover even at the offer stage in my experience but I think it’s less risky to ask then.

    4. The Office Admin*

      I try to read as much as I can on benefits on the company’s website, or on Glassdoor reviews
      Also, as an interviewer, before we make an offer, we go over “benefits” *cough* We don’t have any *cough*
      I know that’s unusual from a company standpoint, but I want people to know they will not have health insurance of any kind by working here so they aren’t surprised later on.

      1. BRR*

        That should honestly be in the job description. It’s a HUGE deal breaker for many (most?) people and a waste of time to even apply for the job (unless you pay FAR above market rate).

        1. The Office Admin*

          We pay below, at least in my experience. Non-union construction work, most guys start at $12 and top out at $18 after 5 to 10 years.
          So, private health insurance, even through the new government Obamacare program, is still incredibly expensive at that pay rate.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I agree. I ended an interview once because the person said they didn’t offer healthcare to employees. There is no way I would have applied if I had known that, and we just ended up wasting each other’s time. Luckily it wasn’t very far into the interview, and she understood when I said I couldn’t accept a job that didn’t offer it.

    5. Edited so boss doesn't know I'm looking*

      At the end of the day, interviews are conversations and sometimes you just have to go with the flow. I’m kicking myself for asking something that likely shouldn’t have been asked until the offer stage but the interviewer really opened the door. Basically it was something like “you hold X license, do you have any concerns about moving to a job where X license isn’t required that I could clear up for you?” I went over the basics about why moving from X to Y is fine with me but I did say given the nature of the job I would like to keep X license and I was curious if the company would do that for me. Normally the company pays your license fees but this license isn’t required at this job. They weren’t at all prepared for that question and sounded totally thrown off that I asked it. I back pedaled and said it is something we could discuss later if we proceeded to that stage. I was annoyed though thinking “don’t ask me for my concerns about x if you aren’t prepared to address them!”

    7. BRR*

      It usually is but ugh, because we all work for fun and the money and benefits is just something thrown in. Check the company website and glassdoor. You’ll likely have to wait for an offer to ask and with an offer it’s ok to ask about any detail of it.

    8. Julie*

      I’m a cancer survivor and pre-Obamacare I really needed to know what coverage levels I’d get because I couldn’t take a job that offered bad benefits. Not in my first few years post-chemo. I also didn’t want to mention cancer in an interview. What I’d usually do was ask if they had any documents about the benefits package, ask a few questions about who they were insured through, did they have any local partnerships, were there any causes the company donated to or volunteered with, and that usually got me access to a packet of information or contact information from an HR manager. If you don’t get what you need up front, specifically ask an HR manager for the rate sheet from the last open enrollment period.

      I’ve only once had a problem getting at least some sort of additional information and that was a government job where I kept being told “it’s on our website” and naturally the website had broken links and a “last updated” with a date that was 5 years old. It turned out to be indicative of the system.

  18. Contemplating a new job*

    The company I currently work for is having issues and a new round of layoffs has just finished, with rumors of more layoffs to come. The work is okay, the people are great but the morale is very very low and it seems like it doesn’t really matter if you do good/meaningful work – you might still be on the chopping block. I have been there for almost 15 years and am worried about how easy it will be to find another job. I have an interview for a job that I know I can do part of – the technical side. But the more I talk to them the more they bring up the project management side and other expectations such as code reviews and I am not sure if I am capable of doing that or not. There is a part of me that says take it anyway – who knows when/if you will get another offer! But the more logical part says don’t take it and try and see if you can find something that is just technical – you haven’t lost your job yet. There are a lot of benefits that would get on the new job (like 90% work from home) that I probably won’t find elsewhere. But I am thinking that jumping into something because I am desperate to get out of a situation where I think it is only a matter of time before I get fired isn’t a good idea. I am looking for a little advice/affirmation because there really isn’t anyone here I can talk to.

    1. Adam*

      You said there aren’t many people you can talk to, but is it still not possible to talk to your manager about your future at the company given the circumstances? He may not be able to provide much info, but it might ease your worries to talk about it at least a little bit.

      Aside from that with the potential new job is the project management side something you would really rather not do or learn to do, or do you doubt your ability to do it? If you’re not opposed to expanding your skills into this area you could approach it as a new challenge to dive into. Of course you’d want to speak with the new employers and let them know your lack of experience beforehand in this area so they might be able to focus training resources towards those ends for you if they want to hire you bad enough. You could maybe negotiate that as part of your signing package or something.

      1. Contemplating a new job*

        I have talked to a different manager and she seems to think that job searching is a good idea but that there will be no layoffs in our area for the rest of the year. She has no idea what 2016 will hold and if they do the same thing then that they did this year it will be a bleak year then too. I don’t really want to do the project management side of things – I am trained in it and I don’t think it sounds too hard to do, but I would prefer to be a heads down in the technical side of things then be a management type person. This is a company trying to branch into a new area so they need someone who can do everything and I am afraid they might be expecting me to have more skills then I actually have.

        1. Adam*

          So long as you’re upfront about what skills you actually have it’s on the hiring company to decide if you have what they’re looking for and if any lacking experience can be remedied to their liking.

          But if project management stuff is something you really wouldn’t be happy doing than it probably is best to let this opportunity go. You could speak to the potential company about your preferences and see if there’s other ways you could contribute. But there’s no shame in bowing out professionally.

          With your current job while there are no guarantees of your future there you could see this as a chance to get out in front of future layoffs and start looking for something new now. After 15 years it might be time anyways and if you really want to move the sooner you start the better!

    2. Sunflower*

      It sounds like you have some time so I wouldn’t jump on a job simply in fear of losing this one. I would keep applying and thinking about doing a job you’d really like. Any chance these layoffs will increase your responsibility and you can maybe obtain some more experience in different areas you’re interested in?

      1. Contemplating a new job*

        I already did that – I accepted two new projects that will expand my skills and hopefully make me more marketable. I live in a small town where the big employer is my employer – I know that if I want a different job chances are great I would have to commute into NYC, NJ or CT – which means I will be up against a lot of other people who probably have more impressive skills then I have. (I am also not too sure about my skill set- 15 years in one company can make you uncertain about how much you know works only at one company and how much is universal).

  19. Adam*

    I’m curious on what people’s thoughts are on this topic:

    How quick is too quick for a LinkedIn connection? I met a new co-worker in my organization. She’s a temp hired to work in a department I don’t have much interaction with and I don’t even know what her position is. We work on different floors and met in the elevator on the morning ride up. We did the usual casual introductions and the “welcome to the office” pleasantries on the quick seven floor ride up. By lunch time she’d sent me a connection request on LinkedIn.

    This didn’t bother me really, but I did find it kind of weird. Thoughts?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t know – I think it depends. I think with all social networking, people are just as varied as they are in “real life.” Some people are quicker to make friends, some people want to get to know someone better first.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      As long as I’ve met the person, I don’t mind connecting (unlike Facebook or other sites where I’d like to actually know them). She probably wanted to connect before you forgot who she was.

      1. Adam*

        Funny thing is this actually happened a couple months ago and that person is no longer here. I was going through my connections and had a stop moment of “who the heck is this?”

      2. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

        I wouldn’t think of it as weird. You mention she is a temp, so this may be her effort at reaching out and connecting so she may be able to talk with you at a later time about the job, company, career track or possibly even a future full-time opportunity.

    3. MsM*

      Doesn’t strike me as all that weird. I’ve had new coworkers connect to me before I’ve even met them in person. And even bearing in mind that she’s a temp, I don’t really think it’s all that different from exchanging business cards with a new professional acquaintance.

    4. C Average*

      I think there’s a lot of variation in how people use LinkedIn. I don’t tend to ever send requests, but generally accept the ones I get unless I don’t know the person from Adam. But I notice a lot of people seem to reach out to everyone they meet, and have hundreds of connections. I don’t think there’s a well-established norm in terms of how well you should know someone before sending such a request, but this example doesn’t sound out of line at all.

      1. Adam*

        Off topic: for obvious reasons for many years the phrase “Don’t know him from Adam” confused the heck out of me for years growing up. Even after I later figured out it’s proper usage and all that to this day whenever I hear it I still have a brief moment of “Wait…what?”

        2. Cath in Canada*

          Heh!

          The first time I heard “Chatty Cathy” (when I moved to Canada – never heard it in the UK), I thought it was a personal comment about me! I do like to talk, but I hate being called Cathy, so I was not very happy.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            LOL! Chatty Cathy was originally a talking doll. Pull the string, she talks, etc. I haven’t heard that one in a while, though.

            Off-topic trivia, but the same person who did the voice for the actual doll also did the voice for the evil Talky Tina in the Twilight Zone episode, “Living Doll.”

            “My name is Talky Tina and I think I’m going to kill you!”

            Imagine having THAT on your resume!

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        I also think that many people reach out to their direct connections’ contacts. I have gotten requests from people and thought “Whaaa? This person is in Europe, I know I’ve never met them.” But it turns out that they are connected to someone I do know.

    5. Sunflower*

      People are all different about LinkedIn. My guess is if she’s hoping to obtain full-time employment, she’s probably looking to make as many connections as possible.

    6. Cath in Canada*

      I think that’s fine. She was probably updating her employment history section and had a bunch of “people you may know” from the same company pop up as a result, or something like that. I know I tend to “batch” LinkedIn connections – I’m not on the site very often, so when I do venture over I might have three connection requests, which when accepted spawn a bunch of “people you may know” who I decide to add, and suddenly I’ve added 40 people in 10 minutes and look like I’m job hunting or something!

  20. Not Today Satan*

    Last week I posted about getting a temp job, which I’m happy about. BUT on the off chance that a good permanent opportunity comes up in the meantime, I’d like to take that. I know that doing so is normal if the temp job is through an agency, but at this job I’d be directly employed by the place I’d be working. Would backing out still be burning a bridge the same way backing out after accepting a permanent job would be?

    This is all hypothetical/wishful thinking, but I have a full month before this job starts, so I’m still applying to jobs if they look like great fits.

    1. Adam*

      I’d like to think most employers know for most people temp jobs are essentially holdover positions until the person finds a more stable on-going position, even if they take a few temp jobs before they get to that. And I think it’s assumed that you’ll still be looking all the while you’re in the temp job. My organization has hired a number of temps recently in various positions, and some people have only lasted a week or two before bowing out because a permanent position came into their world.

      I’m not a hiring manager so I hope some of them chime in as well, but I hope this is one of those realities of business that reasonable employers would understand.

    2. Dang*

      If they see it as burning a bridge, they’re dysfunctional. I wouldn’t worry about it at all. Is the assignment open-ended?

      I’ve been a temp for almost a year through an agency, and the company has been trying to hire me (but has been denied by corporate). When I told them I was leaving, they completely understood and were apologetic about not being able to offer a permanent job. I think most employers who have temp employees expect that they won’t last very long.

    3. some1*

      The only way I see this as an issue is if you are hired to do a specific project or work with a determined end date, and your company really wants one person to work out the whole assignment. Then I suppose I can see them being annoyed, but I still think that’s the risk they take when hiring a temp.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        It is for a specific project with a determined end date, but I’m one of 9 temps they hired. So… I guess if I get another offer they’ll be able to live without me.

        Thanks everyone for their advice. I’ll feel less guilty if this hypothetical situation comes up. :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Definitely don’t worry about it. They’ll be fine.

          In reference to Mallorie, the recruiter’s comment below, I’ve never had an agency temp job I’d want to get hired for. I’ve had some I liked, but none worth staying on and doing forever. Most companies don’t hire people for the cool jobs that way anyhow.

    4. Xarcady*

      The advantage to a company in hiring a temp is that they can let the employee go whenever they want. The disadvantage in hiring a temp is that the temp might leave whenever they want.

      I’m temping now. If I get a permanent job, I will try to give my current employer two weeks notice. But if the permanent job wants me to start in one week and won’t budge, then I will only be able to give one week’s notice.

      It’s a risk companies take when they hire temps. If they want full-time people who will give lots of notice before they leave, then they have to hire full-time people.

    5. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      I think most companies understand that this is one of the dangers of a temp job. Even though they may be annoyed, and even if it burns a bridge, its really kind of normal for someone to want something permanent. We had several contract recruiters helping for about 6 months, and one left about 2 months in. The manager was annoyed, but not mad – he was happy, at the end of the day, that this person had found a permanent recruiting position elsewhere. It would probably depend on how critical this work was. Are you a temp project manager that will derail an entire project by leaving? Or are you filling in for a role that can be trained easily within a few weeks/is super replaceable?

  21. Blue_eyes*

    I just wanted to give a shout out to two companies I applied to in the past week that had a really great application process, particularly with regards to salary. They did not require your current salary. They did require you to enter the *minimum* salary you would accept, but they stated explicitly that this number was only used to make sure that no one’s time was wasted if your minimum was above what they would be likely to offer. They also stated specifically that that minimum would not be used in determining your salary if you received an offer (your salary would be based on experience/qualifications and company-wide ranges for that role).

    It was great because I felt free to put my actual minimum salary requirements without fear that it would lead to a low offer in the future. I wish more employers would adopt this system.

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Me too! I’m always hesitant to give a minimum salary before knowing more about the position. It often becomes apparent that the job is a lot more complicated that the job posting made it seem, and then you’re locked into an inappropriately low number.

    3. Adam*

      Since most job postings don’t list actual salary ranges, I wish people would adopt this model you speak of. We work for money. It’s ok for everybody to admit that.

    5. Steve G*

      I was actually going to complain about the “minimum salary” question. Fortunately form one of my pre-screens, it seems like the HR rep didn’t pay attention to the amount. But I am willing to work for as low as $62K for a job that has many weeks of vacation/no OT, and is interesting and at a good company, but want as much as $80K if the company is in growth mode, requires OT, and has some inconvenience factors built into it. So……I don’t want to go around putting $62K on every application, I absolutely wouldn’t have done my former job for anything less than $70K, but my job before that…I’d definitely take a pay cut from my last job to go back to there!!!!

      I’d much rather they had a salary-range drop down or ask for a range, knowing that not every range is going to fit nicely into a ten-thousand dollar range.

      1. Sunflower*

        I have a big complaint about min salary too. Minimum salary means ‘minimum I will take IF’ not ‘yes I will take the offer if you give me this amount’. It’s strange that some HR people don’t realize that. I can’t speak for everyone on here but it seems like most people consider their minimum to be the min. you would take if if the benefits and perks are great.

        Also, my friend hires a lot of people and their application has a recent salary box. She said she doesn’t even look at it and if someone didn’t want to disclose their last salary, she wouldn’t care. Of course, the positions she recruits for already have a set range and no one in that job is making less than the bottom of that.

        1. Steve G*

          I don’t mind the “recent salary” box, but I think it can be a hindrance for those who made “too much” as well. I made “a lot” last year (still in the 5 figures though lol) and don’t need/expect to make that much in 2015 or 2016, but I don’t know how employers are going to evaluate that when all they ask for is a #.

    6. Snargulfuss*

      Here’s an even better and more simple process: post the salary range they’re actually willing to offer.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Well, yes, that is the ideal. But this is still better than requiring salary history or other BS that employers put you through.

  22. OfficePrincess*

    Is it opposite week and everyone just forgot to tell me? Between the candidate who brought a friend to sit in the corner and play with her phone to the interview to the idea it’s ok to just say “I’m not coming” an hour before your shift, I’m so done with this week.

    Overall, I know my job and the jobs I supervise aren’t dream jobs and are pretty entry level, but sometimes I have to question if I’m the one who’s crazy. I’ve only been working in the non-retail/food service world for a couple years, so sometimes I do have a hard time deciding if certain things are just what I would expect is professional and what I should realistically expect from others. Has anyone else here been in a similar area? How do you figure out what is reasonable for the workplace you’re in?

    2. april ludgate*

      I’m new to supervising college students so when I had a similar problem I asked a coworker who also supervises what she does when her students miss shifts without enough notice. Is there someone who’s opinion you can ask? Either way, if you’re their direct supervisor, you’re the one who has to decide what kind of behavior is or isn’t okay. For me it was as easy as saying, “I really need more notice when you can’t come in, could you try to let me know a few days ahead of time if you scheduled volunteer hours during your shift?”

    3. Jessie's Girl*

      I thought it was just me. This has been one terribly screwed up work week. Every day there was 4 or 5 new, horrible things I had to deal with.

  23. wrongjob righttime*

    Hi all,

    I’ve been trying to break into another department of my current company for a while now, and I’ve managed to add quite a few individuals who work in that department to my network. One in particular has been very helpful as far as information about the job goes, but when it comes to expanding my network within that department, she seems to make a lot of promises without actually following through (“I’ll introduce you to xyz person” *after follow-up a week later* “I’ll get it done by end of day!” *no results*). I know that she is busy quite often, she is close with the hiring managers and is a great contact to have, but I am worried about coming off as needy in my communications with her and turning her off to the idea of introducing me to others in her department that could help me land a position.

    I know that networking is a two-way street, but I feel that since I’m still junior to her, I don’t have much to offer her other than a friendly chat once in a while. How do I harness the power of these networking contacts I’ve made without seeming needy or desperate? How can I get someone that owes me nothing to follow through on their promises?

    1. fposte*

      I think you let it go and understand that these things are either going to happen in her own time or not at all. Accept her as generous with information and be glad for that, and call it day.

    2. MsM*

      Have you tried asking her if it would be appropriate for you to reach out to xyz person directly and say you’re doing so at her suggestion or copy her?

      2. wrongjob righttime*

        I had not considered this! I’ll give that a shot and see what happens. Thank you for the suggestion :)

    3. Jessie's Girl*

      Patience is a virtue. I’ve seen people screw themselves out of good opportunities (in similar situations such as yours) because they push too far, too fast. It will come.

  24. Temporarily anon*

    What do you do when you just cannot seem to communicate? I halfway expected to find out Mercury was in retrograde, as hard as it’s been to get anything across to my superiors lately. Here’s an email example. Sorry it’s so vague–I can’t make it too obvious.

    From: Me
    To: Other Department Lady
    Cc: Boss
    Subject: Teapot proposal

    Dear Other Department Lady,

    Today I received a teapot proposal that your office relayed to us. When did you receive it from the teapot maker? If it was after (deadline), then we can’t use it for our upcoming teapot thing.

    Thanks,
    Me

    I received this:

    From: Boss
    To: Me
    Subject: Re: Teapot proposal

    Please check with Other Department Lady and find out when it was received by her office. If it was after (deadline), we can’t use it for the upcoming teapot thing.

    Boss

    I mean…that’s exactly what my email was! The one Boss was replying to! Gaaah. I would think it was an oversight, but it’s been happening with multiple people in multiple incidents for a few weeks. People are missing things that I think I’m saying explicitly. This was just the funniest, in a headdesky sort of way. What am I doing? Should I try to set up a time to talk to people about whether I can improve my communication, or is it least said/soonest mended? Am I under a curse? ;)

    1. ella*

      Maybe Boss didn’t notice that Other Department Lady also received the email? That’s pretty funny though. I don’t know how to tell you to cope with it other than to keep your sense of humor about you, which it sounds like you’re doing. :)

      1. Temporarily anon*

        Oh, probably. In my same department are people who don’t understand bcc–they’ll get a bcc’d email from me, and “help” by informing me I forgot to send it to anybody. :D

        1. ella*

          In related news, a couple of weeks ago I misread the “To” subject field and committed the dreaded “reply-all” error….to the entire company of 600+ employees. In my email, I was saying how happy I was that somebody in IT had finally noticed that having an essential software system that only runs on IE with Java installed is a terrible plan.

          Oddly, the only people who reprimanded me (and I totally deserved reprimanding, don’t get me wrong) were people who have no authority to reprimand me. My boss didn’t say a single word about it. It was a little…exasperating? I don’t even know what it was. I was mostly distracted by being embarrassed.

          2. MaryMary*

            Once, when OldJob was in the middle of an accidental company-wide email/please take me off this distribution list/please do not reply to all fiasco, my manager threatened to fire any of her direct reports who responded to the email string (she was joking) (mostly).

            1. Mallorie, the recruiter*

              We had one of these recently. People kept replying “take me off this list”. After HOURS of this, I finally replied all: You cannot be taken off this list. If you all stop replying to the email, you will all stop getting the email. Thanks.

              I then got 5 emails, 10 instant messages, and 1 phone call to THANK ME for doing this. So much for taking one for the team – those were just as disrupting as the original email. TGIF!

        2. College Career Counselor*

          You might send the note to Other departmental lady in the future and then FORWARD it to your boss (who seems to have reading comprehension/too-rapid scanning issues). That way, you can preface it with an “FYI,” which may make the boss better about reading. Extra step for you, of course.

    2. squids*

      Similar things happen here all the time.

      From: Other department
      To: Me
      CC: Boss

      Here is an idea for something that your department should do!

      From: Me
      To: Other department
      CC: Boss

      We are doing that already. Thanks for the input; here’s what’s going on if you’re interested in more details.

      From: Boss
      To: Me
      CC: Other department

      I agree with Other department. Please take on this new idea. Keep me informed of how it’s going.

      1. Leah*

        Could you reply as if he didn’t see the email? Maybe, “Good news, we actually have been doing that since [date]. It’s going [well].”

        But ugh, that is frustrating.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      I keep getting responses back where I ask multiple questions in the same email, and yet the response is simply

      “Yes.”

      Yes to all four things (unlikely) or did you only read the first thing?

      2. Marcy*

        They only read the first thing. I noticed that whenever I asked a certain person more than one question in an email, she only answered the first question. It turns out, she worked from home a lot and used her phone to read and respond to email. She never saw the second questions because she didn’t scroll down (I don’t know why). I just started emailing my questions one at a time.

        1. catsAreCool*

          I’ve learned to number items when I have multiple questions.

          Also, try to avoid putting any text below a big screen shot unless you explicitly say you have some there – people don’t always scroll past the screen shot.

    4. Cassie*

      My boss does things like this all the time – I’m reluctant to cc him on things because of it (but I can’t not cc him). The other thing he likes doing is to forward me emails that I’ve already received – he doesn’t check the To or CC fields, apparently.

  25. Young Canadian*

    UK readers,

    I’m planning on moving to the UK next year on a 2-year working holiday visa. I’d like to stay in the London area if possible (I don’t mind commuting from the outskirts to the centre). Any advice or comments on job hunting and the workplace? Should I try applying to jobs online or join a recruitment agency? How likely are employers willing to hire an overseas person?

    1. MP*

      I did the two year visa thing in London. I found it impossible to get a call back before I arrived in London but got plenty of interviews and a decent job offer soon after I arrived. Even with economy in bad shape I found that there were plenty of advertised roles all the time but I guess it depends what industry you are trying to get into.

    2. Cristina in England*

      I could only get a job through a temp agency at first, but from there, it was much much easier. I think foreign references freak out some employers. Also, do remain open to other cities in addition to London. London has lots of jobs, but it is EXPENSIVE and sprawling. Depending on your field, you might find that Manchester, Glasgow, etc, are feasible. The UK is the size of New England, so if you can do a little travel at the start of your stay, you might find that you fall in love with a different city entirely!

    3. Cristina in England*

      Oh I forgot this, but you may need to adjust your tone in cover letters. The tone for UK cover letters is more “My expertise in teapot construction could be useful to your project” rather than “I am a cutting-edge teapot guru and a disruptor of the teapottery landscape”. I suspect that the norms for Canadian cover letters would work well in the UK, and this advice may be more appropriate for Americans coming to the UK, but I thought it is worth mentioning anyway.

    4. Angelfish*

      Based on interacting with UK colleagues, I find that (1) they suspect my sincere enthusiasm (I am American) is ironic or sarcastic, especially over email and (2) their sense of “political correctness” is very different from North Americans (and I have found that at least Torontonians are more sensitive to certain issues than many Americans). There is often a default assumption of a basic Christian background that in the US and Canada we would not make (e.g., “you’ll have that by Easter” is not as helpful to a Jewish colleague as “you’ll have it by April 5” and they tend to be less sensitive to the needs of observant Jewish colleagues than I’ve seen in Toronto and New York.

      1. Cristina in England*

        Yes to all of this. I once had a colleague who was running us through some forms and he kept saying “write your Christian name”. He said it so many times I had to ask him to stop saying it.

  26. BRR*

    I believe I’m going to get slammed in my performance review next week, any tips to prepare (I have read Alison’s articles on bad performance reviews already)?

    The past two months have been rough battling with my mental health issues and my work hasn’t been up to par. I don’t feel like my manager is very forgiving about it (I only said medical issues and she is going through a rough personal patch so those are factors to consider). I sent her everything that I’ve done in the past year which contains a lot of good stuff and made sure to point out how well my interim review went.

    It’s just a horrible situation as I’m depressed and anxious which caused my work to slip which leads to my manager being a good manager and providing feedback but it’s mostly negative which doesn’t help me at the moment (and I usually take constructive feedback very well).

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t really have any tips to prepare but I think it’s good that you recognize this will likely happen. I feel like the hardest part would be if you were blindsided by a negative performance review.

      I hope things get better for you soon. I have been feeling the same way lately and it definitely is hard to stay on top of everything when you’re depressed and anxious. I think many people go through similar situations at work from time to time!

      1. BRR*

        Thank you for your kind wishes.

        My manager is awesome and provides regular feedback which is unfortunately why I know it’s coming. I had a bad reaction to one anti-depressant which of course had to happen right before performance reviews and really messed up all the progress I was making.

        I have one project I’m finishing up now which is basically going to determine if I get told “this is better you need to keep this up because you sucked before this” or “this is also crap here’s a PIP.” I’m pretty sure she even moved my review back a week in order to be able to review this project.

    2. Yet Another Allison*

      My 2 cents (FWIW) –

      Don’t get defensive (really – for me this is the hardest part). Own up to areas where improvement can be made. Ask for advice on how to improve in specific areas. Try to focus as much as possible on how to move forward and improve rather than beat yourself up over mistakes.

      1. C Average*

        This. Try to use this review as an opportunity to reset. As much as a bad review hurts, it can also be an opportunity to speak frankly, with no feedback sandwiches or other bury-the-lede nonsense. Try to accept the constructive feedback with an open mind and focus on getting information that’s actionable from your manager.

        One of my favorite things I’ve ever read on this site was this little nugget: we only provide the tough feedback to the people who are worth the time and angst. As so many letters here illustrate, delivering hard feedback to people we value is nerve-racking for managers. They don’t expend this kind of effort for people without potential. If your manager is taking the time to craft personalized, actionable feedback and deliver it to you as kindly as she can, that means she wants you to succeed. All you have to do is be willing to take this feedback in the spirit it’s intended and make the best use of it you can.

    3. Mike C.*

      First off, I think it would be a good idea to discuss your issues with your boss in private in a little greater detail. It helps the manager understand what can be done to help cope, that it’s something you’re actively working on and that there will be improvements.

      Secondly, make sure any feedback you receive is specific, actionable and measurable. You want to know what exactly what you need to do, when it needs to be done by and how it will be measured. Nothing should be a surprise for you.

      Good luck, and I’m willing to bet that it’s going to go a lot better than you expect!

      1. BRR*

        At this point I have told her that I have a medical issue that ends up affecting the quality of my work, I am receiving treatment and my performance has mirrored the effectiveness of my treatment. I had a bad reaction to one medication and I’m since off that and it should get better. I’m curious if you think I should go into greater detail.

        I’m partially nervous about piling anything more on her plate as her father is very ill and an in law just died. On the other hand this isn’t something that just gets better, it gets better and worse some days stick out etc.

        At least she’s a good manager and the feed back is clear and I know what I need to do. The hardest part is trying to buy time. I’m part of a small team with a heavy workload. I’m paid towards the top of what my position will pay anywhere but in return they expect a lot more compared to other organizations. My boss has implied that this can’t continue for too long.

        1. ella*

          Are you able to give her a rough timeline, of the med schedule if nothing else? “I had a bad reaction to a medication I’m on, unfortunately it’s not one I can just stop taking, so I’m working with my doctor to taper off Bad Medication, and Good Medication should start to become effective around Date X.” That might give away your meds as being antidepressants, though, so only you can judge if you want to get that specific.

          1. BRR*

            Not really. I’m off the bad one but haven’t found a good one yet. Often when one seems to work well it then tapers off.

            I’m not opposed to disclosing what the specific situation is. Especially if it will help me keep my job. I have mentioned already the medications take time to start working and take time to leave the system. I have also pointed out multiple times how my cube is in quite possible the worst spot on the floor in terms of distractions. There’s really nowhere for me to move or anybody to trade places.

            1. fposte*

              Oh, BRR, I’m sorry that they haven’t yet helped.

              It’s just a tough situation for both you and your manager here. I think it’s okay to talk to your manager about more details if you’re feeling like it, but ultimately both of you just don’t have the information you want, which is whether you’ll be back to Full Work Power Levels soon. I don’t know that it makes much difference what the actual health issue is–it’s not like the manager knows more than you do about how the new medication will work and how long that would take, or that she would have to tolerate it more if it was a different illness than the one you have.

            2. TL -*

              Can you talk about taking a leave of absence or FMLA or something? It sounds like what you need most of all is time and you should approach this as right now you can’t perform but you will be able to soon. But you want some protection for your job, since this is a medical issue.

    4. ella*

      Sometimes in the past, I’ve had good results with sort of coming out ahead of it, and initiating the discussion with my boss. “I know I’ve been struggling with X lately, and my Y isn’t where I want it to be. I just want you to know that I recognize it and I’m working on improving.” Often just knowing that an employee sees the same things that the manager sees is helpful, I think. If you feel like you can communicate more specifically with your manager about what you’re struggling with, it might be useful to do that. Especially if you don’t think you can immediately make improvements, being able to demonstrate that you also see the problem will be really important. And, of course, even if you can’t talk about that with your manager, I hope you have access to resources and support that will help your depression and anxiety, which in turn will help the other things.

      Also, I don’t know if this happens to you, but depression and anxiety can make me super avoidant of things I know I have to deal with. The fear of dealing with them is often bigger and worse than the pain of actually dealing with whatever it is. Maybe there’s something you can do to make the blocks seem smaller and more manageable? Can you practice conversations with a loved one, or write down what you want to say in advance?

      I’m sort of flailing because I know my own version of how terrible and helpless depression and anxiety can make me feel, and i don’t want to sound like I’m just blithely telling you to do things that would be totally easy for me (none of the above actions would be easy for me). But I know this: depression and anxiety can make you feel helpless. Feeling like you’re doing badly at a job that you KNOW you can do can make you helpless. Feeling like a boss has all the power over your evaluation and salary and employment can make you feel helpless. I encourage you to find something, anything, to do that will help you to not feel helpless. Best of luck.

      1. ella*

        Also–depression and anxiety can make you really hyper-self-critical. Is it possible that your perception is off, and you aren’t doing as badly as you think you are?

      2. BRR*

        My boss and I are almost on the same page already. Thanks to AAM I addressed it and knew the right language to use. I basically gave myself a warning and my manager said, “Good, so you understand.” She’s an awesome manager and somebody I highly respect. I’ve had some stumbles since I started about 2 years ago and I feel like at this point she’s almost done with me. That at this point I have one last chance to wow her (with a project) but will need to be braced for a really rough performance review.

        1. ella*

          Ahh, gotcha. For me, I had to work on “calm game face,” which it sounds like you may already have, since you and her have had a couple of conversations already. Take criticism calmly, acknowledge it, say thank you.

          It also sounds like you’re doing everything you can do to improve, so I think acknowledging that to yourself is important too.

          1. BRR*

            First, thank you for putting so much effort into helping me.

            I think I do a good job of assessing situations objectively including the ones that affect me. I also take criticism very well because I don’t’ disagree with any of it, I have clear goals to meet, and I want to better myself. This might even just be a venting post and not a question. I’m likely going to get chewed out hard, my job is at moderate risk (I would very likely get a PIP at least), and I am just losing the energy to fight.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              I think it is actually a good practice run for how you will talk to the boss. It might go a tiny bit better because you talked it out a little here.

              Not my business really, but does your doctor know you are in this tight situation?It cannot possibly be helping your treatment to have this stress. I was thinking if he knew what a spot you are in, he would try to work sharper and put a little more into helping you.

              1. BRR*

                I have made it explicitly clear that my job is in jeopardy and he has responded appropriately. He has explained everything he does each step of the way and while I don’t have medical training I have agreed with him. Sadly it can’t really be sped up or try multiple new things at once.

    5. TeapotCounsel*

      +1 to what Allison. Don’t get defensive, even if you’re entitled. Don’t bring up the medical issues. Just take your lumps. I promise, promise the manager is uninterested in your problems. When you (or your work) is criticized simply say,
      “You’re right. I’ve been giving serious thought to my performance recently, and I’m disappointed in my performance, too. I’ve thought about how I can use this as an opportunity to improve and do better, and I now realize what I should be doing differently. I will make every effort to improve.”
      That’s hard to say. But really, it’s the best thing to say.

      1. ella*

        But OP shouldn’t say they will improve if they don’t think they can yet, and I think that if they say “I will make every effort to try to improve,” the manager will short-hand that to “I will get better.” But if their medical problems aren’t yet under control, then job performance improvement is still a little ways off, and the manager is more likely to lose patience and confidence in the employee if they feel like improvement was promised but hasn’t happened.

        I know the manager doesn’t care about medical issues, and I’ve never had to navigate this so I’m speaking theoretically, but I have coworkers whose job descriptions are temporarily altered because of physical injury (not being able to lift boxes because of a back injury, for example). If OP is going through a particularly bad episode of anxiety or depression, it really is almost like a mental injury, and I think could be (and perhaps should be, but our society is nowhere near treating it this way, so it depends on the individual manager) treated as such. There are times when medical issues are something to bring up in the workplace.

      2. TL -*

        I disagree – if there’s a medical issue preventing performance, it needs to be acknowledged or discussed and maybe accommodated for.

        It’s one thing if it’s just bad performance, but if there are legit medical issues, allowances can and should be made.

        1. BRR*

          I agree it needs to be acknowledged, at least for my specific situation. I have done all I can to improve in terms of procedures, my improvement plan now is dear good I hope this next medication works (and therapy).

          For me it worked well but it might not for everybody (maybe it can be an article). My manager was relieved because she thought I lost interest in my job and was giving up trying.

      3. Ruthan*

        I agree about not being defensive (it seems like there’s not really anything to be defensive about), but I’m not sure I’m on board with this language. I can’t imagine saying “Yeah, I suck for no reason” without it implying “I don’t actually care”, followed with “so I’m going to say things that I think will placate you, but only if you’re not very bright.”

    6. JPixel*

      If you suspect you know what the negative points are going to be, maybe jot down a couple notes ahead of the meeting so that you are prepared with a response. It sounds like you’re prepared for the feedback, but in the moment, don’t forget to listen intently.

      Do you have a plan going forward if your medical situation does not improve (which, of course, I hope it does!)? Is there someone at work who can can help you out, can you re-evaluate deadlines, or can you somehow shift responsibilities temporarily? As a manager, I’m more inclined to help someone who is struggling if he or she comes up with a couple suggestions or gives me a better idea of what might truly be helpful. I don’t always agree or can’t always make that accommodation, but sometimes it is truly helpful.

      If the situation were reversed, what would you tell your employee or what would you want to hear her say?

      1. BRR*

        Thanks for your suggestions (honestly the support I have gotten through AAM has been so helpful during this time).

        There has been a temporary shift in workload and we’re trying now to shift some back (at my request). I haven’t thought of flipping roles which is weird because that’s a common thing I try and do. Thanks for that advice!

        I don’t have a plan going forward. That’s truly worrisome as I was fired from my last job so now sure how I would handle getting a new job while being fired from my first two, my spouse is underemployed and we live in a high COL area, and I need insurance for this as well as another chronic medical issue.

    7. Red*

      I find myself in a slightly similar position. Overall, the volume of work and crises has been receding in our office. I feel like I can safely claim credit for this–I’ve worked hard on streamlining processes and incorporating on a rolling basis tasks my predecessors ignored; training colleagues from other department on how to correctly do tasks in our system and how to request corrections; and getting buy-in from some of my peers to get stuff done. My previously lazy coworker has been seriously motivated in the past 12-ish months, too, which has helped. My boss has acknowledged I’m good at my work and can finish it very quickly during the day, resulting in downtime. On the other hand, I don’t have much to do so I occupy my time reading on the internet; my coworker’s been latching onto a lot of the incoming work before I can get to it, which is good because it gets done, but bad because it looks like I’m not doing much; my mental and physical state have been poor due to a nasty, lingering back injury that I’m in PT for, so I’m not motivated to do make-work like checking to see if our TPS reports are all correctly alphabetized by last name and I can’t charge up to our front desk very quickly (or pick up huge boxes of incoming mail).

  27. Sunflower*

    How do you force yourself to take the time to edit your resume when you’re applying to a job? I feel like I’ve been doing it a lot quicker lately and I don’t think it’s because I’m getting good at it. I look at an application, look at my resume and think ‘okay I don’t think I need to change anything’ when I know I probably should. It’s a weird mind thing. I know I need to edit it but when I do it, my want to not do it takes over and I tell myself it looks the best it will. I’m debating either giving myself a time frame like ‘I must attempt to edit for 10 minutes’ or ‘I must ask myself these questions before i submit’. Thoughts?

    1. Kelly L.*

      My magic trick for noticing things I need to edit is to print it or PDF it, no lie. There’s something about putting it in a format I can’t edit that suddenly makes me notice the errors. Imaginary irrevocability.

          1. catsAreCool*

            When I print something and don’t need it later, I use the back of the page for notes, grocery lists, etc.

      2. Sadsack*

        Almost every single time that I work on something that needs to be printed, I find an error once I have printed it, no matter how many times I have proofread it on screen.

    2. ElCee*

      Ugh, me too. The questions thing sounds like a good idea. At least with me, if I give myself a time frame, I suddenly realize my dog needs to have his ears scratched for exactly ten minutes before I send off the application. So forcing yourself to answer some questions about it could get better results.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Are you burnt out? How many jobs do you apply to a week?

      I stay motivated by reminding myself I’ve *never* gotten an interview from an application I’ve phoned in.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yes I’m definitely burnt out. I went on a rampage a couple weeks ago and applied to like 25 in one week. So now I am continuing to apply(I’m trying to do about 10/week) while also fielding calls/interviews from interest in those applications so it’s a lot. 10/week seems like a lot but I’m also at my wits end at my current job. Things are really taking a turn for the worst here- I’m expected to turn around results in unrealistic time frames and my companies business practices are getting shadier and shadier. Applying to tons of jobs feels like the only thing that is keeping me sane.

    4. Ruthan*

      I like the idea of making a list of questions to ask yourself, though other than “Does this version of my resume address all the listed criteria to the best of its ability” I can’t really think of any!

  28. matcha123*

    I never know if I’m doing a superb, average or meh level at any job I’ve held. I’ve gotten praise from supervisors, but I’ve yet to be in a position where I could be promoted to something. Where I am, evaluations are not a thing…or at least they are not a thing for people in my type of job. I’m also not in a place where evaluations are a “thing.” Employers do not call up former places to ask for recommendations.

    Doing translation means that in many “problem” areas, the issue lays less with whether or not I’ve completely missed the meaning of the text and more about whether I’ve used words or phrases that my supervisors like. Even in that case, many times they prefer stilted text and unnatural phrasing. For these reasons, I can’t tell if I’m a great worker or just a meh one. If you were interviewing someone like me, what would you want to hear to convince you that I could do high-quality work?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you use past jobs where you did something that was definitely high quality?

      1. matcha123*

        I don’t think I can. I worked only part-time before I moved overseas and all of the jobs I’ve had here are ones that don’t give me any responsibility.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ok, I guess I would say define “responsibility”, every job has something. Data entry you are responsible for accuracy. Waitressing has numerous responsibilities, customers, health codes, the food itself.
          I suggest looking a little closer. Just because it is entry level responsibility does not make it void. Think of times where the supervisor or a coworker complimented you. See what you find.

    2. asteramella*

      Instead of looking to your supervisors for feedback, can you find someone at the peer level that you’d trust to give you an honest impression of your work?

      1. matcha123*

        This is difficult, too. The other person who is most at my level doesn’t really see anything I do and I don’t see anything she does, aside from behavior at the office.

  29. ElCee*

    Calling all Feds–I had an interview with a government agency back in November. The interview panel said they would be concluding the 30+ (!!) interviews at the end of January. In mid-February, I e-mailed the designated HR contact and she said I was on a final referral list with the selecting official. I haven’t heard anything since then, though, so I am writing it off as it’s been way more than 90 days since I (and the other interviewees) were called. Does that sound right? They usually wait until the selectee accepts to notify non-selectees, correct?
    I’m searching elsewhere, of course, but still clinging to a shred of hope! Aah!

    1. Yet Another Allison*

      Everyone always says that the hiring process takes longer than one would expect. Much longer. If it government, it can be times two (or three!).

      But that being said, the same advice applies here as with any other post-interview situation. Put it out of your mind and proceed as though you didn’t get it. Then let it be a happy surprise if you do.

    2. IT Kat*

      If there’s one thing I’ve learned about working with the Feds… it’s that all their timelines around hiring slip.

      For example, I’m on contract right now, they are supposed to hire full-time person to this position in April… the job description hasn’t even been written yet, let alone posted, let alone interviewing begun.

      However, that said – always, always move on from a job after the interview. As AAM states, it’s fine to follow up once (which you did), but otherwise put it behind you, assume you won’t hear from them, and if you get called, consider it a pleasant surprise.

    3. AnotherFed*

      They thought they would finish interviews in January, but then most of the panel was out of the office for lots of December and early January, and then there’s been all the churn over federal budgets this year, so it’s entirely plausible that they just haven’t gotten as far along as they expected to get. Since it’s been 6 weeks since you last talked to HR, it’s reasonable to email them again to ask what the updated timeline for a decision is.

  30. ella*

    I asked this on another open thread awhile ago, but I think it got buried (I posted rather late in the day) and I don’t think it got any responses, so I’m trying again.

    Can anyone shed light on how online job application systems work? Specifically, I’m applying for a lot of jobs in libraries and universities, and while I’m not just throwing resumes at everyone to see what sticks, there’s often overlap. Either two different institutions will use the same job application software, or I’ll be applying to a university that I previously applied at, and my old information is saved. Often this is great because it means I don’t have to do something like inputs my job history over and over, but it also saves resumes and cover letters from previous applications, and that’s what confuses me. If I know it’s been a while (a month to six weeks) since I last submitted an application to that institution, I usually upload a new resume and I always upload a new cover letter. But does deleting the old cover letter make it inaccessible to users on the other end? Should I be just uploading new files, and making the document names clear as to what job application they go with, and leaving the old files? Does this kind of software save individual applications, or does it overwrite old data every time new data is submitted, as appears to happen on my end?

    1. IT Kat*

      Unfortunately, there isn’t a good answer to your questions, because honestly not only does it depend on the exact software that they use, but also on how said software is configured. I could give you two different software that have exact opposite answers to your questions. Some attach the resume/cover letter directly to a job and leave it in your profile for reuse (thus deleting from your profile wouldn’t prevent someone from opening it for the job you applied to), and others only keep the one copy and overwrite. It’s impossible to tell from the outside.

      That said, a good rule of thumb would probably be to replace or update your resume (and your cover letter) if they show up in your profile while you are applying to a different job. Personally, I’d make it clear in the filename which job the cover letter/resume is going to.

      I’d guess if there are old things in there from like 6-12 months ago, those could be deleted.

    2. sittingduck*

      I’m no expert on this, and this is just my guess (from having used some of these systems myself to apply for jobs) but my guess is that either:
      1. When you apply for a job – it saves the application including any attachments in one place, that the employers can access – if you later apply for another job it allows you to use those documents again, or upload new ones – but the old ones are still attached to the first application
      2. If the system does only allow one set of documents (whoever built it is not to bright) it will still probably have a record of you applying before (which is the only thing I can really see as relevant?) I doubt employers go back and read old applications/resumes/cover letters from previous jobs applied to at the same company to see if they’ve changed .

      Those are just my thoughts though. So I guess what I”m saying is I’m not sure it matters which way it happens, because what really maters is the resume/cover letter you submit for the current job.

  31. Lucy*

    I commented a week or two ago that 8 people out of a ~50 person office have quit since I started my new job 2 months ago. Um, that number is now up to 14 (which includes 1 firing). Yeah. My resume is being updated and I’m applying to jobs this weekend.

      1. Lucy*

        I’m so bummed because this was a really long job search and I was looking forward to finally relaxing! But at the same time I’d rather just cut ties now if it really is a sinking ship rather than do what I did at my last job and waste 2+ years hoping it would get better. :(

    2. Sunflower*

      Yikes! Are you hearing anything around your office about why this is happening beyond ‘the company went in a different direction’? Has you boss mentioned it at all?

      1. Lucy*

        I’ve spoken to my boss about it and he was as forthcoming to me as possible (while still being diplomatic) – I actually really like him, it’s just everything else going down the toilet!

      1. Lucy*

        It seems like a lot of it stems from an org structure change that some higher ups didn’t agree with (and then when they left their team would inevitably follow). Word on the street also points to a certain director who was hired ~8 months ago who people despise…..I was pretty neutral on her but, as more people leave, I start having to work more and more closely with her and I’m starting to get nervous…..

    5. Jen RO*

      I was in a very similar situation in a previous job (in my case, it was a matter of overseas management pushing in a different direction from local management). After a lot of people were laid off or left, overseas management tried really hard to keep the rest of us… of course I kept job searching, but it was not stressful, because I wasn’t afraid for my job. I’ve since moved on and everything worked out fine. Good luck!

  32. TGIF*

    Anyone have any tips for coaching someone who is a “black and white” person when she’s doing something that has a lot of gray areas?

    I work at a bank and I am the Bank Secrecy Act Manager. That means that my team’s job is to spend our days combing through transactions, among many other things, in order to discover possible money laundering, suspicious activity, etc. One of my people (she’s been with the bank for a few years on the teller side, she’s now with us in the back office) seems to be having trouble with determining what needs to be investigated further and what doesn’t, as well as how far to go with the investigation. She’s a “black and white” person, which isn’t a bad thing in most aspects of the job, but it makes it difficult on the investigation side because so much of it involves judgment. Judgment is something that’s developed over time and with years of experience, so I’m not really worried right now as to whether this job isn’t right for her. I think it’s a matter of more training and coaching.

    So, any tips for training/coaching a person on how to handle the gray areas and get her to “dig” more?

    1. fposte*

      Can you explain a little further, or give a specific? Is the problem that she’s being too lenient or spending too much time digging in situations where you see reasons not to bother? I think in general it’s easier to start with specifics with the employee in such a situation, too, and then put a few together to suggest what approach might work better overall.

      1. TGIF*

        I would say not digging far enough and just looking at the surface.

        The process is that we receive alerts from our systems, which scan for certain patterns of transactions, dollar amounts, date timeframes, velocity, etc. She then has to look at the alert (look at the customer’s history to see if it’s something that can just be explained away, or if it looks suspicious) and determine if there’s anything that might need a second look by another person. I’m finding that she’s dismissing the alerts when some of them should have been forwarded to another person for further review, because it looks like something that could be suspicious.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Can you have this person shadow someone (yourself?) more experienced who can walk her through the judgment process out loud?

      1. TGIF*

        Hmmm, that’s a good idea. I’ve talked with my senior person and one thing she plans to work on is writing procedures that can explain what certain suspicious behaviors are and how to spot them. But I think shadowing could help.

        1. LizB*

          Maybe the senior person could create some kind of decision-making flowchart or scoring system? Like, for alerts in Category X, you should be more suspicious if the amount is $YYY and/or the date is ZZZ and/or the sender is ABC; if an alert gets two out of three checks, have someone else review it. This would ideally just be a guideline help train them until they get enough experience to have a good sense of judgment, but it could help make a subjective decision more of a black-and-white process.

        2. catsAreCool*

          Sounds like a good idea. As a computer programmer, I was going to suggest something like instructions/general rules that would help the person decide what to do.

        3. little Cindy Lou who*

          A quicker solution is a checklist. Highlight the key elements of what can be dismissed or what needs to go on and explicitly include if not sure check in with person or people.

      2. cuppa*

        That was what I was going to suggest. If I’m making decisions for people, I try and walk them through my thought process out loud so they understand the judgement process.

    3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I’ve done really similar work and I had the opposite problem in the beginning – EVERYTHING looked suspicious to me, lol. I think the most important factor is what you already said, she needs time to develop that judgement by experience. In the meantime, if you have any training classes/e-learnings/slides with examples and cases, etc, that might help her?

      1. TGIF*

        Funny you should say that…one new person digs into EVERYTHING and the other doesn’t go far enough. I agree it comes with experience. I’ve dug up some information I’ve found from various places. I would love a book that would explain all this stuff as well as what to look for. That would be perfect.

        1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

          I attended a really good training in the beginning where someone presented cases and the group had to identify if it might qualify as suspicious, why, what they would look for, etc.

          She might also benefit from improving her understanding of whatever system generates the alerts? I assume these run on different scenarios combining factors that (alone or combined) could throw up a red flag. Does she fully understand the rationale behind these scenarios and how/why they are defined?

          1. GOG11*

            I was going to suggest a few “case studies” that could be used as either exercises or as examples of what to look for. Also, if there are particular pairings that come up frequently and which fall either way, those could be outlined, too. Say, if there’s something that looks suspicious to most people but that can easily be explained by a certain chain of events, that could be shared, too, if it’s something that occurs frequently enough in your line of work.

      1. TGIF*

        It definitely is!

        You’d be surprised what people do to try and get around cash reporting guidelines. Rather than just deposit $15k in cash, they’ll structure the cash into smaller deposits so that none of them hit over the threshold. Well, guess what? You just popped up on our radar because it looks suspicious. Much more so that if you just made the big deposit and let us file our cash transaction report. Now you’re structuring and that’s a big no-no. Cash is not illegal, people, but structuring your transactions to avoid reporting IS!

        1. Natalie*

          How did you get into that area of banking? I’m in accounting and leaning towards forensic accounting which probably has some similar principals.

          1. TGIF*

            I just evolved into. I was a teller, then a teller manager, then I went into Operations. All of those positions involved some aspect of the Bank Secrecy Act. I eventually became the BSA Officer, among many other things (the nature of a very small bank). When I moved on, I decided to do just BSA and nothing else. I like it. I’m learning a lot; my last bank was very small and I didn’t see half the volume and “weird” stuff I do now.

        2. catsAreCool*

          Interesting. I’m glad you check on this stuff.

          I just wish my bank had been suspicious when someone used a credit card number of mine that was not the current credit card number (I had cancelled the card because of a concern) and used this credit card in a different continent for about 1,000 each time! I still don’t know why this was allowed (multiple uses of this cancelled credit card number), but when I asked, no one gave me a helpful answer.

          1. TGIF*

            Banks don’t all have the same card fraud detection systems. Some banks have systems that are older and aren’t looking for suspicious transactions in real time. The system does analysis on a nightly basis and then alerts the bank the next day. Other banks have systems that scan in near real time (I’m not sure if we now have real time systems since I’m not in that area anymore) and “learn” a cardholder’s spending habits – a neural network. Those are the best systems.

            In your case maybe the card wasn’t cancelled (by the bank) as it should have been. Or maybe the suspect used the card at a time when the card network was offline, which would likely have allowed the card to go through without being declined. I don’t know.

            1. catsAreCool*

              Thanks, TGIF. I think it went a few days (with multiple transactions) before I caught it.

    5. Anonymous Coward*

      In order to know what’s suspicious, she needs to know what normal behavior is. As a teller she probably has a good idea of what people normally need/do at a bank, but maybe hasn’t considered how that plays into a wider perspective of user behavior. Case studies have helped me immensely in training! “Susie Self-Employed has frequent but irregular deposits, and some of them are much larger amounts. In many cases this deposit activity could be related to illegal behavior like drug dealing, so we need to look further into the source(s) of her funds. We can see in her paperwork that she is self-employed as a Teapot Consultant, and there are reviews of her work on her LinkedIn profile by two managers at Outstanding Teapots, which has a good reputation in the industry. The large checks are coming from that company. Smaller deposits are also checks, not cash, and the ones that are personal checks have related accounts at our bank, as well as “teapot project – web design invoice #446″ in the memo section. This documentation explains the unusual activity, and lets us determine that Susie is low-risk.”

      Construct (or find actual) examples of behaviors that cover the SAR reporting reasons, and have employees use them as a litmus test when they’re getting started with investigations. If this employee isn’t at the level where she’d be exercising that much judgement, a shorter checklist of “What is the total amount transacted? Is it over $X threshold?”, “By what percentage is this unusual transaction higher or lower than the typical activity for this user/account? Is that over the red-flag threshold of XX%? Do we know why?”, etc. may be more useful. Also, the FI doesn’t have the responsibility of conclusively demonstrating that illegal activity is happening, or what it is; just the obligation to report behavior that might be related. Make sure your employees know that — while good judgement saves the bank time and unnecessary effort — there’s no penalty for overreporting. There are high penalties for failing to report.

    6. Hillary*

      One of the things that helped me a lot when I was learning a different brand of compliance (as someone who’s also fairly black and white) was not just shadowing but also talking through the thought process. Not just “that transaction looks wrong,” but “we should look at that order more closely because the ultimate consignee is in Dubai where there’s a lot of transshipping but not a lot of end users in our industry.” Now that I’m the subject matter expert I have to remind myself to unpack my logic because I forget that most of my team doesn’t have that background knowledge.

    7. SaraV*

      While I wasn’t in banking, I had a similar job with having to investigate “alerts”, just on medical records, and deciding whether it was a false alert, or something we really had to take action on. Every record, just like every account, was unique. So you couldn’t say “If you see x, then always do y,” more likely “If you see x, most of the time do y, unless you notice z…”

      I agree with everyone else…
      1) Have her job shadow you or a more experienced person in your department
      2) Type up some examples, using some real alerts you’ve stumbled across if you can. Explain what you saw, what you searched for, where you found it, and why you sent it on for further investigation. I know that if I understand the “why”, the steps needed to be taken will stick in my head better.
      3) If you yourself come across a sticky alert, ask her to come over and see you work it in real time. Again, explain why you’re doing what you’re doing.
      4) Make yourself or someone else available for questions if she has any.

      Hope this helps some.

  33. gloria*

    If I heard from coworker X that our boss (who works in a different city) said coworker Y and I are going to be in charge of an upcoming project that I hadn’t even heard about, am I obligated to get in touch with our boss to ask what’s up, or am I right in feeling like I can wait until he gets in touch with my directly about it?

    (Context: I am currently working on a few other projects which are wrapping up but still pretty work-intensive, and I also heard from coworker Z that while this new project was originally going to be coming up soon, it’s gotten pushed back a few months, so in either case it’s not like I would be suddenly devoting 20 hrs/week to it.)

    1. Sunflower*

      I would just wait unless you really want to get in touch with boss. Unless your coworker said ‘Boss wanted me to let you know that’ I would pretend like you never heard it.

      1. gloria*

        That was my plan, and I’m glad to hear I’m not just being a brat about it! (And coworker very much did not say that; on the contrary, coworker seemed surprised I did not know!)

        1. Sunflower*

          I’ve personally found that not much good can come from ‘I heard from X that…’ I can only relate to things at my company but things change very quickly and frequently so no one tells anyone anything until the last minute. If I approached my boss because I heard something, he would probably get annoyed that people are talking about things they don’t know and now I want an answer he doesn’t have or I’m worried about something I might not need to worry about at all. If you company is anything like that and I was a boss, I would feel the same way. I would check your voice mail/email to make sure your boss didn’t already get in touch with you- maybe ask coworker X how she knows about it? But beyond that, I would just find asking to be a bother to the boss.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This. If you were told it was coming up in a couple days, then my answer would be different. It’s been my experience that something “2-3 months” from now has a 50-50 chance of ever even happening.

      1. gloria*

        It’s not something I’m dying to do, but it’s not something I’d mind either. It IS something that would have a projected completion date a few weeks beyond the date when I am hoping to have moved on (all of the jobs I am applying to start around the same time – if I don’t get one I’ll most likely here for another year), but that’s so tentative right now it’s not something I want to bring up at the workplace yet.

  34. Jessica*

    Just wondering… what is considered a “good” amount of PTO, including sick leave, personal time, and holidays? Can’t seem to find a good answer. This is for the U.S.

    1. Lucy*

      Not sure if it’s “good” but the standard at my last 3 jobs has been 20 days (either all PTO, or spread between sick, personal, vacation) if that helps….

      1. Jessica*

        My most current job is 31 days including sick, vacation, and holidays. Seems about right, based on what you said.

        1. Lucy*

          Oh yeah, I forgot to include holidays – mine have typically been 5-7 in addition to the ~20 PTO.

    2. Sascha*

      Most people I know in non-government jobs get about 3 weeks of vacation or combined PTO. I’m not sure about sick leave, that seems to vary a lot more. In higher ed and state government, we often get ridiculous amounts of PTO, especially if you work for a public institution/state government. For example, I’ve been at my school for 5 years and have racked up 10 weeks of vacation and 9 weeks of sick. I also get paid holidays on top of that (no separate personal time). And I’m fairly low on the totem pole…this PTO structure applies to everyone.

      1. Jessica*

        Is that cumulative (carried over from previous years) or do you get 10 weeks/year? That seems really high!

        1. Sascha*

          It’s cumulative, sorry I should have mentioned that. I earn 8 hours sick every month, and X hours vacation depending on my tenure. Right now I am earning 10 hours vacation each month. How much I can carry over each year also depends on my tenure. So some of our lifers who have been here for 30 years literally have one year or more of PTO.

      2. Steve G*

        Wow! Sign me up. My last job was 3 weeks the 1st year and then 4 the last few years I was there.

        I worked briefly somewhere where they only gave 2 weeks and left for (partially) that reason. One you take off the couple of days around Thanskgiving and Christmas (when they shouldn’t want you there anyway!!!!) you only have 1 week off to use for the ENTIRE rest of the year. Need to take time off to move, or a Friday off to get to a wedding? Now you don’t even have a full week of vacation for an entire year, such BS…

        1. Sascha*

          It comes with the price of working in higher education. :) Also my job is such that I can rarely take time off, hence all the accumulated PTO. I’d probably have used more over time if my work allowed it.

    3. The Office Admin*

      The company I work for, you accrue 1.2 hours for every 40 hours you work. That adds up to about 7 days per year.
      That’s holidays, PTO, vacation and sick time.
      We take 8 federal holidays off and close the week between Christmas and New Years, just for perspective.
      So, anything but that is good IMO.

    4. Someone Else*

      I have what I consider to be a good amount: 4 weeks PTO (Lumped Sick/ Vacation Time), 1 Personal Floating Day, and 10 Holidays. Most days before a holiday, we are dismissed 2 hrs early with full pay for that day.

    5. puddin*

      I think I just heard on NPR that Microsoft is starting to require a minimum of 15 PTO days per year of its supply chain (suppliers with more than 50 employees). Apparently Msoft employees were reporting to their higher ups that their vendors were not allowing employees time off. So they are writing it into the contracts that the 15 day min PTO has to be there. Not sure if this was US only suppliers or if it applied globally.

      I recently turned down an offer where the total annual PTO was 15 days, no opportunity to negotiate for more, and you had to be employed for 5 years before earning another five days. This seemed skimpy to me at my current career position and there were other concerns with the offer. But the PTO especially stood out as scant.

    6. Sunflower*

      My sister works for a great company and they get 21 days + major holidays. However, sometimes they require people to take PTO during slow times(often between Christmas and New Years) so that can be a downer.

      At my company we get 7 sick days and 5 PTO the first year(second year you get 10 PTO) plus 7 national holidays. I think our first year is INSANE but 10 days isn’t unreasonable.

    7. Gwen*

      As a newish employee, I get 10 days of PTO and 10 days of sick time, plus 1 floating holiday (and around 10 company paid holidays), which I find…good but not WOW. The only thing I really dislike is that you have to accrue vacation time and to make it an even amount per pay period, you don’t accrue in months with 3 pay dates which is extremely frustrating (and you can’t borrow against future time)

    8. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

      We get 3 weeks of vacation when you first start ( you get additional weeks based on time of service/position); 10 paid holidays; the week between Christmas and New Years and there really is no policy for sick time. We are a small team of 4 with our parent company in Europe, that really encourages work/life balance and emphasizes family.

    9. Jessica*

      Thanks everyone! It sounds like my 31 total days is pretty good then. I used to get one week at my last job, so I felt like my gauge could have been WAY off.

    10. Christy*

      I’m a federal employee who has been here 7 years. I get 10 federal holidays, 13 sick days, and 20 vacation days, for a total of 43 days of PTO per year. If you’re here less than three years, you “only” get 13 vacation days, and if you’re here more than 15 years, you get 26 vacation days.

    11. IT Kat*

      Most places I’ve been (that haven’t been government jobs) have had 10 days (aka 2 weeks, with another coming at 5 years) of vacation/PTO, and usually 5 days (1 week) of sick time (that you were not supposed to use, according to all the jobs I’ve had :/). Add in about 5 holidays, and that’s a total of 20 days/year between vacation/PTO, sick time, and holidays.

      That said, in the government jobs it’s more like 10-15 days PTO, 5-10 holidays, and in one notable place: unlimited sick time.

    12. asteramella*

      Thanks for posting–I was wondering this recently. I just started a job that provides 20 days PTO and 10 paid company holidays per year–I’ve never had paid time off at any other job and had no idea how to judge the amount.

    13. Ruthan*

      And here I thought 2 weeks PTO plus a few holidays was the going rate. I need to improve my standards! :)

  35. anon account*

    I ran into this issue during my last job search and am curious as to how other people would have handled it for future reference.

    I applied to a position I was overqualified for (Teapots Coordinator, 1-3 years of experience) last summer. We were trying to relocate and this company was in our dream city, which I discussed in my cover letter. Never heard anything (long distance candidate, duh) but was pleasantly surprised when a recruiter from the company reached out in the fall with a more senior opportunity in a different department (Chocolate and Cookies Manager, 4-6 years of experience). I have 5 years of professional experience, for context.

    I interviewed and they eventually made an offer….which was the top of the coordinator range I had supplied in my original application (salary was required in the system they used, there was no way to skip it). I tried to negotiate, saying that since this was a completely different (more senior) position, my salary range would have reflected that if I had applied to this one instead but they weren’t willing to talk.

    I eventually accepted that I wasn’t in a position of strength to negotiate and took their offer since the opportunity to relocate was too good to pass up, but it’s bothered me since then…my issue isn’t that I’m doing a manager’s job for a coordinator’s salary, but that if I had applied to the manager position to begin with, I never would have offered the coordinator salary range I did (and, as a catch-22, if I had applied to the coordinator position and put the manager salary range, I probably never would have been called!). Basically, is there anything else I could have done in this situation or was I pretty much screwed from the beginning?

      1. anon account*

        Basically….
        – recruiter called me on Monday to verbally offer, I say I’m excited and said I can’t wait to see it in writing
        – recruiter emailed me the final offer, including salary, later that day….salary is 5k below what would have been my minimum if I had initially applied to the manager position
        – recruiter and I get on the phone, I follow all of AAM’s advice re: negotiation (make your case then shut up!): I’m sorry we didn’t get a chance to discuss this earlier in the process, I’m super excited for this offer but since it’s a completely different position than the one I applied for, based on my research, I think a salary in the range of $X would be more appropriate
        – recruiter is immediately on the defensive: “well, this is the range you gave us, it’s at the top of the range, this is on par for salary in the area”, I reiterate that the initial salary was for a completely different, less senior, position, recruiter says she needs to talk to her boss and she’ll get back to me
        – recruiter and I speak a few days later, she says they’re unable to come up on the number, take it or leave it, I ask to think about it for the weekend, talk to my SO and basically decide the chance to relocate with a job is worth a pay cut so I accept the job on Monday

        1. CAA*

          Why was there no opportunity to discuss salary prior to the offer? You interviewed for the manager job, and you knew they had the wrong information at that point, so why not bring it up then? Your best chance of getting a higher salary was to make your expectations clear as early as possible.

          It’s entirely possible they would have decided not to proceed with the offer if they knew you were looking for more than their budget, but that’s the exact situation you would have been in if you applied for the manager position first and stated your real salary range.

    2. Chloe Silverado*

      Is it possible that for this company, the salary you inputted for the Coordinator role is what they offer their Manager-level employees? I say this as I work for a company that has a reputation for paying at the lower end of the spectrum for my industry. I’m currently in a manager role (it’s my first one, so I don’t have TONS of experience), but my salary is similar to that of an experienced coordinator at a more prestigious firm in my industry. The company could absolutely be lowballing you based on an application you filled out for a different role, but it’s possible that their pay grades are just different than what you’re used to (unless they’ve specifically indicated otherwise).

      1. anon account*

        Yeah, I did consider that, and I think that’s a big part of the case here as well. Since we were moving to an area with a lower cost of living I did a ton of research on Glassdoor and other sites looking at salary range in the area/for similar companies and what I was asking for seemed in line with that. *shrug*

    3. nof*

      If the salary band (formal or informal) for coordinator and manager overlap, and your offer was within that overlap, then I’m not necessarily sure you got screwed. But yes, it seems to me that since you weren’t willing to walk away from the offer, then there probably wasn’t anything else you could do. I still think they acted in bad faith a little bit for holding you to a salary range for a completely different job, but maybe from their perspective that range was too high for a coordinator and reasonable for a manager, and they may have made a similar offer either way.

      1. Sunflower*

        I agree with all of this. When they approached you about the Manager position, they should have brought up salary again. Unfortunately, I don’t think there was much you could do besides turn down the offer. The only thing I would have done is asked about a possibly of salary re-negotiation after x months.

  36. cuppa*

    I’m going through a slow time at work and I’m reading Alison’s management book. It’s great!

  37. hrnewbie*

    I feel like I made a huge mistake. I joined this company about a year and a couple of months ago and have slowly morphed my way into the HR person. Throughout this process and meeting with people in the company (size of about 30) there has been rising frustrations due to lack of accountability and perceived favoritism. One of my main pushes was for attendance (it would help weed out people), I notified everyone about the change to the policy in a meeting. In which I said, notice if you’re going to be late must be given and it will be noted. however, if you are still late (3 times or more in a two week period), you will get a written notice.

    Unfortunately yesterday I had to give a notice to an exemplary employee. (I’m trying to be fair across the board.) It is noted in her file that we had a conversation about she would only be late if her children are late. Now she is completely done and didn’t want to come to work (information given via her manager).

    How can I remedy this situation? I feel like I messed up with my push for being standard. What do I do?

    1. fposte*

      Do some jobs need a standard arrival time, or was this just the feeling that people should be at their desks because they should? Are people getting their work done, and if not, is this being addressed in other ways? And do they have actual managers, since it sounds like some management stuff is ending up in HR?

      My suspicion is you’ve fallen afoul of wanting to have a blanket policy rather than dealing with individual situations, but if you’re not their manager you may not have the authority to deal with the individual situation.

      1. hrnewbie*

        The issue is the CEO felt across the board that people were always coming in late.

        In this particular instance, the current Manager fails to discipline employees. The manager is content with his department, however, the CEO is not.

        It’s essentially a culture that has been created over 20 years and i’m trying to change it as possible. This wasn’t to call this employee out at all. In fact, I probably wouldn’t have written her up at all, except for the fact that I was following the guidelines created and articulated to all employees.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, but that doesn’t answer the question of why it’s a problem when people are coming in. This might be an opportunity to raise that point with the CEO–“if we make this just about when people come in, we discourage valuable people like Lucinda.” If this is what you guys are sticking to, turning off some valuable employees is what’s going to happen. Having a policy and then putting an asterisk saying “Except for Lucinda” isn’t going to help, either.

          And I think you might be able to push a little more on the management issue–why does the CEO have a manager who isn’t on board with the CEO?

        2. Joey*

          Then by default the CEO isn’t content with his manager. That should be where the focus is, not getting you to implement some systemwide policy that skirts the issue.

        3. Dynamic Beige*

          “The issue is the CEO felt across the board that people were always coming in late. ”

          At OldJob, the CEO liked to bring clients around to show “where the magic happened.” The client meetings were never broadcast or put into some sort of calendar, they weren’t any set day so none of the “magic makers” knew when or if this was going to happen. One day in summer, such a meeting happened and when the CEO took the potential clients around, instead of people busily working away at their computers making “the magic” happen, there was nothing but empty desks. It was the custom that when you had accumulated a lot of lieu time, you could take time off when there weren’t any projects with the manager’s consent, like the summer which was traditionally the down time. Obviously this reflected badly on CEO and the new rule became that you *must* put 40 hours billable time in every week, at your desk. Which was, frankly, impossible. And, when you did try to take your time-in-lieu (PTO was not a thing there and they would not pay overtime) strangely there wasn’t anything in the new timesheet program you could put it to, only dockets of open projects were there. It was a nightmare.

          So, if this CEO is one of these “I’m in every day at 7am and I expect everyone else to do the same or be there earlier and not leave until I do” types, then I think you’re out of luck. This isn’t about what’s reasonable, but the CEO’s image/vision and what they think is right, and it’s their company to run as they see fit. If (s)he likes coming in and seeing all the bums in seats, working away, then that is what they like. Sure, it will drive away people who need some flexibility but that’s the risk you take when you insist on things like that. And you, HRnewbie are in the unenviable position (along with the manager) of having to spell that out to everyone so that they completely get it, which sucks. Maybe when people start turning in their 2-weeks notice you can suggest to the CEO (if they ask) that people have been generally unhappy and demoralised since the new 9-on-the-dot-not-one-second-late-we’ll-write-you-up policy went into effect.

    2. Joey*

      your mistake was focusing on attendance instead of productivity. Some folks have to be there with near perfect attendance to produce while others don’t.

      Also, does your attendance policy allow enough for “life stuff”?

      1. Mike C.*

        Yeah, this is exactly what I’m thinking.

        hrnewbie, why do you feel the need to weed out people?

        1. hrnewbie*

          Our attendance policy is simple. If you are late more than 3 times in a two week period (regardless of reason) you’ll get a notice. If you accrue more than 3 notices in a 6 month period, you’ll be brought in for a meeting.

          The reasoning for weeding out people is that there have been people identified that are “bad seeds”. However, there has been no documentation of poor performance. Years of not having write ups actually be kept in files. Due to the fact that there has been blatant abuse of being late, this seemed like the logical step to start holding people accountable.

          1. Joey*

            that’s the problem. If say I’m a high performer yet my car breaks down for a few days you’re going to write me up. That’s a flaw in your policy.

            1. the_scientist*

              Right, hrnewbie, I notice that in your replies you’ve skirted around answering questions about why lateness is the issue your CEO/you has chosen to focus on here. Do people in your office need to be in their desks at a certain point in time every day? Are there roles where coverage during office hours (i.e. reception/admin, answering phones, keeping enough people on a sales floor). Or does it matter? If they are working the required # of hours per week and meeting the requirements of their roles, is it actually impacting anyone that so and so comes in after 9 a.m. because of daycare drop off and other person comes in a bit late because they like to go to a morning yoga class?

              I mean, you can absolutely decide to enforce a strict late policy if you want but you have to be prepared for the consequences. Good performers who have other options WILL leave for places where they aren’t treated like elementary school students and are trusted to manage their time.

              As for “weeding out poor performers” to be blunt- using your strict attendance policy to do that seems like the easy, lazy way out. Start documenting actual issues with productivity, get performance improvement plans in place and actually follow-up on the consequences documented in those plans. Don’t take the easy way out by making lateness the defining metric of good performance vs. bad performance.

              Unless of course, people do actually need to be on time to provide coverage.

          2. fposte*

            But they’re not bad seeds because of when they turn up in the office. It’s bizarre to use that as a metric to get rid of them.

            It really sounds to me like your organization has a weak manager and a CEO who’s weak in dealing with that manager, and you’re being asked to compensate for both of those. That’s not reasonable or functional.

          3. Tinker*

            So, if the actual problem is poor performance, and secondarily you have the issue that you can’t act on the poor performance yet because you haven’t documented it, why is the logical step not working to document the poor performance?

            Granted that the lateness may also be a problem, but the way you’re phrasing it — weeding out the bad seeds and such like — makes it seem like you’re using that policy to generate a pretext for sacking folks where the actual primary reason is something that you don’t have solid documentation for. In which case, at the very least, you are going to have to accept situations like the one you cite where you find yourself having to penalize one of the employees that you didn’t intend to target — that’s one of the downsides of taking this approach.

            If the lateness in itself is actually a problem, then the employee in question is less than exemplary at the moment, is she not? Because an actual requirement of the job, for good reasons, is not being late and she is in fact being late. So maybe the question there is whether your discipline process is productive or not, and how to introduce this change in a way that gets people on board with the importance of it. And there you still have to accept that some people who have useful talents in other areas are not going to perform well in the attendance department, particularly since you haven’t been selecting for that in the past, and you may well lose some of these people.

            What is it that is actually your goal here?

          4. Mike C.*

            You aren’t going to get respect for or compliance of rules that are arbitrary – regardless of how simple or equally applied they are. Zero-tolerance policies are terrible for a reason, and you’ve just seen why.

            Change your policy to something that better matches concrete business needs. Additionally, this “bad seed” nonsense needs to go. If you cannot articulate why they need to be fired, then they shouldn’t be fired.

          5. Joey*

            The good news is it’s fixable. Go back to your CEO and tell him the policy has had an unintended affect – that it punishes high performers for stuff that happens to all of us from time to time. Tell him that you’d like for supervisors to only use it if they can explain how it’s impacting their work. If they can’t they shouldn’t use it

            2. Katie the Fed*

              Exactly. When I was a new manager I used to get a little too fixated on this type of stuff, until I learned to trust my team. I have one person who rolls in late frequently, but she’s also a single mom with a lot of responsibilities and does good work. Why would I punish her? She’s doing well and it doesn’t affect her performance.

    3. soitgoes*

      You did the right thing; it was her fault for thinking that the rules didn’t apply to her. And this might just be my bias, but she already gets preferential Mommy treatment because she has kids? Eff no. Expect her to come up with a bunch of irrelevant excuses for why she needs to be late all the time.

      1. lawsuited*

        I don’t have children, but I don’t hold anything against any mother or father who wants to contribute in their workplace and take care of their children but needs some flexibility in order to do both well. In efforts to balance work and family, I don’t think that families should more frequently have to take the hit. Workplaces are populated by humans, caring for one’s children is a very normal, human need, and I think smart workplaces would plan for that reality.

        1. Mike C.*

          So long as that flexibility is offered to everyone regardless of children, I don’t see a problem with this.

          1. Joey*

            Its not quite that easy. In my experiences, parents tend to have more life emergencies so the perception is they’re favored simply because they have more needs

            1. Mike C.*

              But what about all of us singles/DINKs who go clubbing every night and have hangovers? Don’t those count? :p

                1. Jamie*

                  Don’t give companies any ideas. This shower at work thing catches on I won’t have any excuse to go home on occasion. :)

            2. Katie the Fed*

              Yes, and in my experience a lot of the women DO end up with the lion’s share of family obligations. So there’s something to be said for the idea that flexible scheduling does make it easier for companies to retain good women employees. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Flexible scheduling that applies for everyone, of course – but it can definitely help retain women.

              1. Ruthan*

                YEAH! (And flexible scheduling *also* helps the dads your company employs pick up some of those family obligations, thus reducing the load on their partners.)

      2. asteramella*

        That’s a pretty unrealistic thing to think. Many employees are parents and the reality is that care taking for another human being (regardless of whether that human being is an adult or a child) is often unpredictable. Parents aren’t the only class of employees who need flexibility and railing against “special treatment for parents” is all too often a misogynistic dog whistle given that in most cultures women pull a “double shift” of being primary caretaker and an employee as well.

    4. The IT Manager*

      I feel for you. “Fair” is most often used to mean everyone is treated the same which you did. But assuming this exemplary employee wasn’t impacting her work with her lateness, it seems unfair to punish her. It’s harder to treat people fairly when using more nuianced criteria. Kate strolls in late but does great work while Jo is always on time but does terrible work. In this case Jo needs the warning not Kate. Or if Kate does research she can work when wants, but Sarah Jane the receptionist must be at her desk when the doors opens. I think you need to think about this, but consider what you really need. Butt in chair isn’t the criteria you should be judging.

      And if Kate does exemplary work but is regularly “late” consider changing her hours if the later arrival doesn’t impact her job performance.

    5. Yet Another Allison*

      Good points here.
      – What is the problem that trying to be addressed? If it is productivity, then this policy will not address it. If it is that this is a job where timeliness affects the job performance (or has trickling impacts because others have to cover) then it is a good policy.
      – Why does it matter if she has kids? Everyone has life emergencies.
      – Did this policy have buy-in from the right level of authority?

      My 2 cents: What is this not wanting to come to work nonsense? Did she quit? Or is this a tantrum? And if her manager is allowing a tantrum (or giving into it) then there *is* lack of accountability and favoritism in your office. A policy change to cover up the perception won’t help.

      1. fposte*

        I’m still thinking about the “not wanting to come to work” thing. If I worked 50 hours a week in an office, with several “bad seeds” who were being widely tolerated, and then got written up for some new HR policy because my kid was sick, I could see mentioning my discouragement to my manager. It sounds like we only heard the bit the manager chose to convey, too, so we don’t know what else got said.

    6. Kara Ayako*

      I would be so upset if I got a notice for coming in late despite being an “exemplary employee.”

      I think sometimes we think everyone needs to be treated the exact same way for things to be fair. But it’s just not true. Lateness should only matter if someone isn’t getting their job done (because either part of the job is being in his or her seat by a certain time or because they’re not doing things they’re supposed to be doing by coming in late). Then the issue isn’t about lateness but about not doing their jobs. For those who say that it’s “favoritism” to let some people come in late and others not, shift the conversation to job performance. Address the actual issue.

      1. Joey*

        I tell people that they will flat out see favoritism by me- for anyone who’s doing a great job.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Yes! My old boss used to say this. “I get accused of having favorites. Turns out, I do – the people who work really hard and do really good work. What a coincidence!”

    7. lawsuited*

      I think by taking your approach, you risk giving the impression that your company cares about minutes spent sitting in desk chairs more than it cares about the work produced, which is not really the message you want to send to employees. I think this approach rewards employees who arrive at work on time but spend their day playing Farmville, and penalizes employees who are 15 minutes late because they had to drop off their children but work hard and produce stellar work for the remainder of the day. If I were the employee you describe, I think I’d feel confused and frustrated on where the emphasis was being placed, and wonder whether the company and I were still a good fit.

      Of course, none of this applies if the employee is in a front-facing position like a receptionist or bank teller were sitting in the chair at the right time is a key part of fulfilling the role.

    8. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I have to back you all the way up. All the way up. Allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way up.

      Culture.

      You have to build a culture. You have to decide what culture you want to build and then build it.

      Do you want a “write up” culture? Now, I or anyone I who has ever worked with me or for me has “written someone up” exactly zero times. That’s, my opinion, a terrible culture that people will do their best to get out of and good managers won’t want to manage in.

      If you’re working in some big nameless bureaucracy with policies decreed on high, it would be a lot to change but GOOD NEWS, you work directly with CEO and a chunk of this has been delegated to you. You can see how write ups and No Tolerance Rules have landed you in a pickle with this good employee — it will only get worse. And it can get much worse.

      So back all the way up and figure out, with your CEO, what kind of culture you want to make. Then get to work on getting management on board with the overall vision. Then get people some management training. And fire managers who aren’t up to the job before you start firing their employees who may or may not be up to the job but have been managed poorly.

      Building culture can take years but it will save a business.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I was just about to address the “write up” thing so I’m glad you already did.

        I’ve never worked anywhere that “wrote people up,” nor would I ever “write someone up.” It’s infantalizing and weird. You* give people feedback, you document when it becomes serious enough, but point systems and write-ups? That’s a culture that great people are going to flee from. This is not the culture you want to build.

        * “You” in this sentence refers to their managers — not to HR. As HR, you shouldn’t be involved in this kind of thing at all.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          I don’t have any experience running a large factory or fulfillment center where practices like this seem most prevalent. I can’t say that if you are running a facility with hundreds of lower wage hourly employees where shifts and timing are critical, I can’t say that write ups and points should *never* be done. (I can say my family would have to be starving before I’d take that management job.)

          Because I do run a microcosm of that – tiny fulfillment center, call center that isn’t a call center but still has to be well staffed at all customer hours, backend operations that need to turn on dime, I can say that it doesn’t have to be done at the few hundred employee number at least.

          We’re at 100, staffed 7:30am to 8pm, 5 days a week, and we’re freaking efficient. No need for any changes on the horizon.

          Would I say the same thing at 800? I hope so, but since I haven’t been there (and this stuff can be very hard), I can’t say.

  38. Violet Rose*

    A question for people with more office experience: how do you sort out what’s part of office life and what isn’t, and what’s worth leaving over?

    This is my first office job out of university, and I think it’s doing terrible things to my mental health. I need a lot of sleep to be a well-functioning human being (think 9 hours per night), and I have a really short attention span. I work best in short bursts of concentration – think 3 hours of intensive work where I’m “in the zone” – but having to work on the same project for more than a few hours just drains me dry. I’m in my office for 9 hours a day, 30 minutes of which is unpaid lunch, and this seems to be 5 more hours a week than is standard for my region/industry. I haven’t had a schedule like this since high school, and I’m slipping back into that bitter, adversarial, burnt-out, me v. my superiors mindset, which is NOT a good place for me to be.

    I’ve already decided to leave my job once I find something I like better, but how do I explain to potential fewer employers, “I left because upper management put a huge verbal emphasis on face time, early mornings (even for same hours worked), and also because my boss’s boss was racist and homophobic and made me super uncomfortable?”

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Honestly, most office jobs suck in this regard, and you’ll have a hard time finding a job that doesn’t require much face time at your experience level. You might want to find a job that’s not totally office based–like a program job at a nonprofit that involves a lot of time out working on programs.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Seconded. I don’t thrive in an office environment. I don’t know whether it’s due to my ADHD, just my general personality, or what.

        I love jobs that involve a combination of office work and being out on my feet moving around and doing stuff. I’m so much happier and more productive in positions like this.

    2. Sunshine*

      I think you need to find a more diplomatic way of saying things, no one likes negativity. People want positive candidates. Growth, or you wanted a change I think are better answers but still need to have some truth behind them when you elaborate but no negativity. You need to spin it. Even thought I have 4-5 years of office experience I have interviewed people before and whenevery they say something off it is a red flag, the interviewer doesn’t know you well enough to know if the problem is actually you or the environment.

    3. fposte*

      I agree with NTS–most of what you’re talking about is pretty standard. The hours may be non-standard for your region, but would leaving half an hour earlier really make a difference really change the problem given the other things you dislike? If you really don’t want to work on one project at a time, it may be your position choice, not your employer, that’s an issue there–there are a lot of jobs that involve more juggling, and it sounds like they may be a better fit, but a lot of jobs do indeed require working on one thing for a long time.

      I would not say any of what you said to a prospective employer. For one, it raises the possibility in their mind that you’re a slacker, because that’s often who complains about having to be in the office; for another, it’s more a personal rant than information that helps them understand your candidacy. You’re looking for a position with more variety, because you’ve found you enjoy balancing different responsibilities.

      1. INTP*

        Good point on the possibility of changing positions. Some jobs require the ability to concentrate on one thing for extended periods and some require the ability to juggle eleventy billion things at once – the OP may be in the former type of job but need to move into the latter.

    4. INTP*

      There could be regional differences, but in my experience, 9 hours in the office per day is pretty much the minimum that you’ll be able to find at a full time job, though usually that comes with an hour lunch if you’re hourly/nonexempt. *Maybe* 8.5 hours with a .5 hour lunch, but usually it will be 9. (However, you usually have the option to leave your desk at lunch which I would highly recommend if you feel burnt out – go for a walk, drive somewhere else to eat your lunch, etc.)

      I would suggest you work on ways to harness your concentration and help your energy levels work to your advantage. No one is really concentrating hard for their full 9 hour day. Most people are probably not even concentrating hard on the same thing for 5 hours. Try to split things up – maybe you could work 3 hours in the zone on the more mentally rigorous or creative parts, take a short break, and then do some of the mindless paperwork tasks? Maybe the pomodoro technique would give you more stamina by making sure you get regular breaks? (I think a 5-10 minute internet or walking around break every hour is pretty acceptable for an office job.)

      I also need 9 hours of sleep a night, and if I don’t get it regularly my ADHD and immune system both get out of whack. The crappy truth is that to have a full time professional job you can’t have much going on outside of it on weeknights. I was eventually able to sleep sufficiently but I had to get rid of my weeknight social life entirely, choose between a workout or cooking on weekdays, and basically eat my dinner, watch an episode of TV or relax for a bit, and get right in bed on weeknights. Then weekends were mostly chores and food prep for the week. I’m a grad student with a part time job now but I still do best if I kind of stick to this schedule. I found that most of the grad students that tried to keep a college style irregular schedule wound up very overwhelmed.

      If you do leave your job there is no way that you can blame it on early mornings and a 9 hour workday without giving major red flags to the interviewer. Leave all of that out and just say “I enjoy my job at Chocolate Teapots, but long-term I think my passion is much more in line with Vanilla Teapot Analytics so this position seems like a great next step for me.” But if you like your job generally, be careful about leaving it – you’re not very likely to find a job where you aren’t going to have to be at your desk at least 8 hours per day. The higher level professionals I know that have the flexibility to work from home often and the trust to get their jobs done without having their hours tracked are also putting in a lot of 60+ hour weeks when the company needs it.

      1. The IT Manager*

        The crappy truth is that to have a full time professional job you can’t have much going on outside of it on weeknights.

        So true, especially for those that need 8 or 9 hours a sleep a night and have a commute.

      2. nof*

        INTP’s advice is right on the head. I also need 9(+!!) hours of sleep a night and prefer short bursts of high intensity work. When I first started working after college, the 8 – 5 schedule was horrible. Building a regular routine, especially in regards to sleep, devoting my evenings to self-care (healthy food, exercise, relaxation), taking a real break at lunch, and using my weekends to prep for the week made a HUGE difference. I bet that sounds pretty boring and like I sucked all the fun out of my life, but having that structure has allowed me to get through the first through years of entry-level work and slowly integrate more “fun” into my weekday schedule, and now, I’ve been successful enough to get a new job with a more flexible schedule. It sucks, but it is really too your benefit to make these adjustments, because the working world will not adjust to you.

        1. Sunflower*

          Hate to say how true this last. Last night I left work around 3:15pm(early because I had to run an errand). I did the errand, cooked dinner, went to the gym, showered and boom it was 8:30PM next thing I knew.

    5. The IT Manager*

      Eight and half hours a day / 5 days a week is fairly standard in the US for a white collar office. It’s only slightly above what’s normally considered minimum full time (ie 40 hours a week). If what you say is true about your region/industry, then by all means look for a new job. But what you described doesn’t sound like hugely demanding “face time” issue if they want you at your desk for 42 and half hours a week.

      You mention needing lots of sleep what may be a warring with your employers demands to be in early. You can control that by going to be early enough to get 9 hours of sleep before your alarm goes off in order to get you to work “on time.”

      By all means look for a job with the desired flexibility. Look for ones that offers variety. Look for a culture that you fit into, but I be aware that jobs that don’t have set hours and don’t clock your hours are rare especially for people just out of college. You seem to be really having trouble with things that I think are mostly part of office life (not the racist homophobe but the other stuff), if you really have this much trouble with it office jobs may not be a good fit for you.

      Frankly

    6. Olive Hornby*

      Yes, this all sounds pretty standard, I’m afraid. I also need a lot of sleep (I intentionally designed my college schedule so that none of my classes started before 11, so–I feel you.) For me to get to the office by 9:00, I need to get to bed by 10:30 and have everything ready (clothes laid out, lunch made and packed, etc.) the night before. I also brew coffee (set the coffeepot to brew) the night before, so I can drink it on my commute. This makes me feel less frazzled and more in control, which might help your days feel less like high school.

      As for the racist, homophobic boss – if his comments don’t rise to the level of harrassment, in which case you should go through the appropriate HR channels to get them addressed, I’m not sure there’s an elegant way to bring it up in an interview. You run the risk (which I know is unfair, but that’s how it is) of seeming overly sensitive. If you’d like a less traditional office setting, though, you can certainly say that you’re looking for a more dynamic, varied set of duties, assuming you’re applying for jobs that would provide those things.

    7. Sunflower*

      Are you sure you’re in the right job? There are lots of ‘office’ jobs that require you to be out of the office and doing different things. Working in account management is a big one that let’s you do lots of different things during the day and you can get out of the office and still be doing work. I’ve also noticed a lot of jobs at universities and non-profits are partially being in the office and the other part outside doing other stuff. There’s also hotel/hospitality work which isn’t for everyone but I know a lot of people who have found happiness there.

      Unfortunately, your schedule is not all that unusual. It’s something you just get used to once you start working. I allow myself 1, maybe 2 days, a week to laze around after work but most of the time my weeknights(and weekends) are filled doing things that I used to do in college just whenever I had a chance.

      I’d really focus your energy on making sure your next job has a little more variety.

    8. Don't give up, restructure!*

      I’m very similar to you, in that I tend to be a bit of a “chunker” as I call it where I can devote 2 -3 hours max of highly effecient time, then I tend to sputter and die. So one thing I do is keep a running list of quick reports/research items/easy tasks and when I’m starting to feel a little tired I’ll switch to one of those tasks and knock a couple of items off that list. This gives me energy, as I”m achievement and task oriented, and then I can switch back to the big project.

      Unfortnately morning people are biased, they like morning people. I think forbes did an article on it, something like “morning people are judging you”. There’s not much getting around that.

      Absolutely be sure to take care of your health, exercising and eating well. Lunch is particularly important. If you are having carb heavy lunches, chances are you are snoozing in teh afternoon. Choose low carb lunches for the best energy. Don’t overload on caffeine, and be sure to get plenty of sleep! : )

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I am not clear here- is the toxic big boss at this current job?
      If yes, then a toxic work place will leave you exhausted. How is your immediate boss?
      There is a huge difference between doing 9 hour days with reasonable people and 9 hour days with toxic people. I occasionally work 14 hour days. Because I have good bosses, I find that I am a very different person than the old cranky me who worked with toxic people. And I do not worry about driving home safely at the end of the day- I can concentrate.

      You can explain it to employers by saying the job was a bad fit- then don’t expand on that unless you are saying something about what you learned at the job.

    10. Ruthan*

      The hours you will probably need to find a way to deal with — I agree with posters below who have suggested short breaks. (It’s amazing how much happier I am at the end of the day when my reaction to realizing I’ve gotten off task is “Time to visit the restroom/stretch/get a coffee/get some water” instead of “I’m a terrible person.”)

      The horrid overboss is *not* par for the course.

    11. Violet Rose*

      Thank you all for your comments! I was out of town for the week-end, and didn’t realise our destination had very limited internet/cell reception, so I couldn’t reply individually.

      When I started my post, I was tired, frustrated, and *very* bitter, but reading all of your guys’s comments helped me readjust my thinking and sort out what in particular was wearing me down. Hearing how people had made the adjustment also really helped: a large part of it really is just system shock. (A quick note on hours: I’m in the UK, and a lot of the jobs I see posted seem to be based on the assumption that 37.5 working hours/week is “standard full time” – but I haven’t even lived here two years yet and the vast majority of my friends are full-time students, so I may be way off-base.)

      Now that I’ve had a nice relaxing week-end to recharge I’m in nowhere near such a hurry to move on, but I’ve seen a few openings that look pretty appealing. I’m hoping that if I start casually sniffing about now, it will help motivate me to step it up at work (I like to finish strong), but I’ll hold out for an offer that feels like a definite step up – and paying much better attention to office-culture fit this time!

  39. Intrepid Intern*

    I got an interview at the place I intern! I was so sure after they finished all the other interviews last week that I’d been passed over. If I got the job, I’d be moving into a staff assistant role.

    What questions should I ask in the interview? What are some of the main differences I should look out for in moving from intern to FT?

    Also, had anyone ever moved out of an admin-y role to a more research-focused one in International Relations? I don’t see it happen, and I don’t want to pigeon how myself, but otherwise this looks like a great opportunity.

      1. Intrepid Intern*

        Oh believe me, I’ve read everything AAM I can about interviewing. I was just wondering if there was community wisdom, in a “things I wish I would’ve known” vein.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      If you want to do research, I wouldn’t stay in an admin role for too long. You’re probably working with a lot of highly educated people, who unfortunately can be quite snobby and they might not see your intellectual capabilities if they see you as an admin type for more than a year or two at most. So it’s a good stepping stone, but I think you need to be clear that you’re looking at this job as an opportunity to learn more about the field and eventually move into a research role.

      Intern to FT – I think Alison had a post about things people wish they knew when they had their first grownup job – I’d read that. A lot of it will be how you present yourself – attire, attitude, willingness to learn. In your internship, you’re there to learn. In your job – you’re there to contribute.

      So for your questions – you might want to ask how someone in this role could eventually transition to an eventual role in research or policy or whatever it is you want to do. Ask what the hiring manager sees as the biggest challenges for someone in the role, or ask about challenges facing the organization.

      1. notfunny*

        Katie is totally right.

        I would also think about what kinds of tasks you can do that overlap with research-related roles. How can you gain the skills and knowledge to make contributions to the research that you’d like. You might consider taking a course (coursera, edX, etc or in person) or taking on some volunteer work to build the skills and get some experience to make the shift.

  40. Lyra Belacqua*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few months about where I want to go, career-wise. I have a master’s in program evaluation (e.g. evaluating whether something like Head Start is effective), but after a year of unemployment following graduation I took an admin job at a construction management firm. The work is deadly boring and not something I care at all about, and there’s not really any opportunity to learn more or grow here as I’m not an engineer. So I’ve been looking for jobs to do social sciences research, but am having a hard time finding anything that fits/getting responses because 1) I’m in-between being fresh out of undergrad and having a PhD, 2) My master’s is now almost 3 years old and I haven’t been able to use what I learned, and 3) I’m not sure exactly what kind of job I want. A lot of postings I see either want someone in a total admin position, which I would do if there were opportunity to move up, or someone with at least 5 years of relevant experience, which I don’t have.
    Ideally, I would love to do something working with people, helping them, but using my research skills/knowledge to reach an informed solution/path. I like having a flexible work schedule and not having to sit at a desk all day. I wouldn’t need to have all of those things to take a job, but I currently have none of them, so anything would be an improvement. I’m thinking of getting a certificate in statistics and survey design so I have something more recent on my resume/can increase my skills, but I’m feeling kind of lost and aimless/hopeless with what to do with my life.

    I’m kind of venting here, but I would love to hear from people who have been in similar situations or who have any ideas/thoughts. I’ve recently been thinking of getting an MSW but I’m not sure if that’s right either.

    1. Dang*

      I have a master’s in public policy, emphasis in social research. I ended up in academia for awhile- check out research coordinator roles at universities, they can be a good springboard. Most of the positions I found were in public health/universities that had medical schools. You could be involved in recruitment of patients into studies, etc, which would require you to be not at desk from 9-5, and academia is often very flexible in terms of schedules.

    2. Sospeso*

      Hi Lyra! You might consider looking into industrial-organizational psychology. The name is kind of off-putting, but if you’re not familiar with the field, it is essentially the psychological study of the workplace and of people at work. Speaking broadly, people with a master’s tend to do applied work, while those with a doctorate tend to do research (although, of course, there are exceptions). Based on some of what you said – “working with people, helping them, but using my research skills/knowledge to reach an informed solution/path” – you might find that I-O blends your goals of meaningfully helping people and using informed solutions to do so. That is exactly what I find so appealing about it (I am applying to programs this fall). SIOP has some great info on possible career paths with an I-O degree, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics listed I-O psych as the fastest-growing occupation through 2022. Many I-O’s go into consulting, which might get at some of that flexibility you’re looking for.

      I also have a friend who is getting a joint master’s in social work and public policy through Ohio State University. You may find that interesting as well.

      1. Lyra Belacqua*

        Oh, I-O sounds so interesting! I took a psychology of organizations class in college, and found it really fascinating, but never know it was an actual job (I guess besides the professor). Thanks for the suggestions!

    3. thisisit*

      I’m surprised you are having trouble finding a job in evaluation, given that’s the big push in policy these days (ACA, Dept of Ed, etc). Maybe it’s your location? If you are up for moving, look at local gov (eg, law enforcement or justice), fed gov (particularly within HHS – NIH, CDC – FDA, etc), and many of the big think tanks in DC. Universities (schools of public health, but also those with social science departments) are also a great place to look. You could also try foundations or grant makers too.

      The certificate in stats/survey design would be a great addition, IMHO. Coursera has one, I think.

      1. Lyra Belacqua*

        I’m in DC, which I think may be part of the problem – there are so many highly qualified people here with better connections (and having connections is something I seriously underestimated when we moved here), that it’s a tough job market. Universities have grad students they can pay less/get to work for free, so I haven’t see much there. Been looking at local government and think tanks, and have submitted some applications, but haven’t heard anything yet. Federal government … I would rather print out a hundred copies of my resume and set fire to them one by one all day than submit another application through the black hole that is USAJobs again! Everyone I talk to about my degree agrees that it sounds interesting and very much needed, but I think a lot of government/non-profits is either all talk, and/or they’re looking for people with 5-10 years of experience already.

        1. thisisit*

          ah yes. connections. essential in DC. have you tried informational interviews and happy hours? also networking opps at orgs (like those lunchtime lectures and the like)? they can be cheesy, but a good way to meet people. and don’t underestimate volunteer and recreational activities. a quarter of my non-job-related professional network was made through my yoga studio.
          Also, USAJobs does indeed suck.

          (i spent 15 years in DC and Bmore)

          1. Lyra Belacqua*

            Funny that you mention a yoga studio- I’ve been studio assistant-ing at one since we moved here and it has indeed proven to be the best source so far for contacts. I’ve got to get back into informational interviews. I admit, it’s been hard getting back into the job search game, especially having already spent a year being unemployed over 2012-2013, with the end result being that I have a job, but it’s not in line at all with my interests/experience. Though looking back, I’ve now amassed a pretty large amount of admin experience which is not strictly what I want to do, which makes me feel even more pressure to get out ASAP. I’ll look into the lunchtime lectures, too – that could be a good option so even if I don’t meet anyone, I might still learn something :)

            1. thisisit*

              random thought – if you have the freetime, there are tons of little NGOs, especially doing direct services, who need eval data for their funders. if you’re up for it, you could get some experience as a volunteer helping to create indicators, eval plans, etc. and also great networking.
              i’m specifically thinking of mental health, substance use disorders, transition housing, etc.

    4. SRB*

      Oooh, de-lurking because I think I can actually be helpful here. I am also in the DC area working for a government contractor that does A LOT of program evaluation. I don’t know if there’s any way to trade e-mails without having them post to a public interwebs board, but here’s my general thoughts in no particular order:

      1. Depending on where you work and the projects you’re on, work type could be super variable. I’ve had a job where I worked on one part of one project 8 hours a, day 7 days a week. At my current job, I’ve been on up to 7 projects at the same time. Even within the job it could be variable. At my company, though, PhD level task leads or project managers are involved in maybe 2-3 projects at a time. Depending on when in the project they start, they could be responsible for developing the methodology, designing data collection, general day to day management of a project, putting out fires (the least fun part), writing reports, editing and reviewing reports, etc.

      2. Schedules. My company is fairly flexible about work from home and time, but (a) that cuts both ways – I will be working this whole weekend, but I also can leave early throughout the week if I’m not working and (b) that’s not true of all companies in this field.

      3. Depending on where you work, the culture and ability to move up are variable. my company is very generous with rewarding employees. One of my coworkers left his last company because he worked there for several years without a single pay raise and felt that people at his level weren’t really respected.

      4. The degree. Even though I have a full time job currently, I’m also getting a master’s degree in statistics. It’s definitely already helping me get ahead at my current job. The degree options in the area didn’t wow me – UMBC seemed like the one I’d go for – but there are a growing number of state schools in other states that do applied statistics degrees online which is what I went with. The degree is exactly the same as the in-person degree on the diploma so it’s not one of those for-profit scam university situations. What will your PhD be in, though? That alone might be enough to land you a pretty good spot somewhere.

      5. At least in my experience you’ll always end up doing some degree of “admin” type work in addition to your “fun” work. It could be meeting minutes. It could be creating meeting agendas (someone has to decide what your meeting is going to even be about!). My PDs still do a lot of admin work in creating budget reports so they know who is billing what, and if it’s over budget. The higher you go, the more you outsource to other people, but it’s nearly always part of the job.

      6. Places to apply – totally with you on the government jobs. After undergrad I tried applying and it’s a true black hole. The university suggestion is a good one. If you’re willing to move/commute to Baltimore, Hopkins is a big research hub. I believe Towson has a project with the MD state dept of education for program evaluation. Think Tanks are also an option (though I remember thinking I’d be uncomfortable actually working for certain ones). There are also a huge number of federal government contractors in the area. I have a huge list of these I could send if you’re interested. Dunno about other companies, but I know for a fact we have hired plenty of PhDs straight out of school with no work experience. I also have an ex-coworker friend who is now working at an industrial organizational psych kind of a company doing process improvement work, but I can’t remember the name of it right now.

      If you want any more information, perhaps we can figure out a way to exchange e-mails. I’m a government contractor evaluating federal (mostly health) stuff, so that’s the only thing I can really speak to, but I like my company and am overall happy with my choice.

  41. HR Shenanigans*

    If you were relocating and your new employer was going to send you a relocation packet of information – what type of info would you want it to include?

    The new employee is getting a stipend for moving but handling all arrangements on their own, per their wishes. We would still like to provide some information to help them.

    1. The Office Admin*

      I like knowing where to go in the city.
      Where do people go grocery shopping? Seriously, that sounds weird but one of the first things a neighbor did when we moved to Kansas was tell us what the best grocery store was, what was cheapest, ect. and I so appreciated it! I’d never heard of any of the store names before!
      Gyms, school info(if they have kids) fun activities for that time of year, top places to visit/see/do like zoos, museums, ballparks.
      Oh, maybe even a welcome basket/box of local foods/drinks? I would love that.
      My husband also refers to me as “the tour guide” so take from this what you will haha!

      OH! We’re relocating in May and last month, the recruiter set up my husband with another member of the team he’ll be with who is about the same age, also married, likes sports and travel AND my husband found out that another woman who is going to the same company from my husband’s college program was set up with a woman in the program about the same age, also single, ect.
      So, we really appreciated such a thoughtful gesture, to “set-up” not just a random team mate but someone who really was similar to the new person!

      1. The Office Admin*

        By set-up I mean, that person made themselves available to answer questions about the program, company and local stuff. It was really nice, they emailed back and forth for a week or two.

    2. Gwen*

      A totally unbiased note that your local visitor’s bureau probably has a visitors guide filled with useful information that would be great for a newcomer to the area! :)

    3. Sandy*

      Have you ever read Real Post Reports? It’s geared to State Dept folks and covers many cities around the world. The questions/answers they provide there would make a pretty good template for a relocation packet.

    4. thisisit*

      housing info, if relevant. i’m probably relocating in the next couple of months to another country and stressing about trying to find a place to live.

        1. Intrepid Intern*

          What is cheap but up-and-coming-although-maybe-with-loud-nightclubs, and what’s cheap because it’s wildly unsafe? Or, for someone a little further into their life, where are there other young families? If you’re moving countries, is it common for the place to come furnished?

    5. Anonsie*

      Not helpful:
      -Popular local restaurants
      -Tourist attractions

      Helpful:
      -Utility companies at their new address (even if it’s easy to find where you are, some places matching it all up is a PITA)
      -Commute info from their new address to work (driving / transit / biking if applicable) taking any local idiosyncrasies into account
      -School district info (if applicable)
      -Anywhere that might be useful around a move where they can get an employee discount
      -Emergency rooms/urgent care centers that are in-network for your insurance
      -Contact info for municipal services that might be needed (for example, does your city have a 311 line? standard non-emergency police line? maybe, I don’t know, animal control? my city has specific hotlines for reporting specific issues like graffiti on your property, things like that)

    6. Lindsay J*

      If they’re relocating from out of state, one thing that my friends and I that moved had to figure out was car stuff:

      Where to go to get your license changed over.
      Where to go to get your car registered and inspected.
      How much time you legally have to do that after a move.

      In NJ all this was handled by one office. In Texas I had to go to three different places (DPS for license, DMV for registration, private garage for inspection) and I needed the inspection done before the registration. Once I figured out how to do it I passed my notes on to my friends.

      Similarly for pets – do they need to be registered? Where do you go to do that? What types of documentation do you need?

      Housing information and utility information might be useful as well if they don’t already have that figured out.

      Grocery stores, like someone else above mentioned.

      Basically it’s easy to find tourist type information (where’s the best restaurant, museums, etc).

      It’s harder to find information on how to live like a local – where to buy groceries, work clothes, where do the locals hang out after work or on weekends, where do you go to buy a plunger when your toilet gets clogged at 2AM, etc.

    7. periwinkle*

      Having relocated a year ago with no such assistance…

      1. Profiles of the popular residential areas nearby. Which ones are family-oriented, where do singles tend to live, which ones have big community centers or walkable downtowns or fun bars or live theater, etc.
      2. TYPICAL COMMUTE TIME for said neighborhoods! I lucked out in targeting a location south of our corporate complex even though it was slightly further (on paper) to the popular communities to the north. From my location it was a pleasant 15-minute reverse commute. For the commuters coming from the northside, not so much.
      3. Local quirks that are normal if you’re used to them but could take a newcomer unawares. We moved to the Puget Sound area and learned that: (1) it doesn’t really rain a lot and thunderstorms are really rare but; (2) a drizzly mist is common; (3) which might explain why you have to de-moss your roof annually. I never saw a single house with a basement during my house hunt. There are drive-through coffee kiosks everywhere; some of them focus more on cleavage than coffee, WTF, so you have to check before stopping in for a latte. (the kiosk name and outside decor makes it obvious – you’ll get a tall mocha at Java Jitters and low-cut tops at Java Juggs, and yes, those are both near my house)

      Someone mentioned Real Post Reports. I used to read those all the time until it made me sad that I probably won’t get to live overseas. Fascinating stuff though, and it would indeed make a good model of what kind of information newcomers need to know.

  42. Meowmix*

    Has anyone ever been in a terrible rut at work? I just started a new job coming from a place I was very burned out at and I can’t seem to focus. I find myself reading online articles, Ask a Manager, on facebook and getting distracted. Does anyone have any tips on how to stay focused and energized? I am getting work done but the pace and culture here is a lot slower than where I was coming from. For those of you who have experienced periods like this, how did you get out of this slump and back to work??

    1. Dot Warner*

      Yep! If the pace is slow, maybe you could try getting involved in a professional organization – volunteer to help with political issues they advocate floor or planning their annual meeting. I’ve found that these organization tend to be full of people who are enthusiastic about their jobs, and that tends to rub off.

    2. nof*

      I am in a similar slump after being burnt out at my last job (I posted lower down below before I saw your post) and the Pomodoro method worked for me a for a while. Other than that, I’ll be following this thread for advice!

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I had a period like this a couple of years ago. I l-o-v-e to be busy at work, and I was feeling bored and tired of doing the same things. I decided to look at it as an opportunity to have the mental space and physical energy to involve myself in some fun/challenging things outside of work, and I also worked fewer hours (closer to 40 than 50) to emphasize my personal life a bit more for a while. It wasn’t the easiest transition, but I ended up really enjoying it. Things shifted around at work after a while and got busy again, but I’m still enjoying a bit more emphasis on stuff outside of work.

  43. Lee*

    I’ve been working in the field of public relations (with a policy slant) for the past several years, and I’m ready for a change to something less stressful. I’ve had quite enough of the agency life, with its long hours, low pay and demanding clients. But I am clueless as to where to go next! Are there any careers that still offer a 40-hour workweek? Preferably one that doesn’t put its employees on edge every day?

    1. LillianMcGee*

      Nonprofit development? Some legal nonprofits also have policy programs if that’s what you’re into. I don’t know if all nonprofits are as laid back as mine, but we all pretty much work 40 hours, work hard, and don’t kill ourselves!

      1. nof*

        I think nonprofit development can be good hours, but I don’t think most development departments are laid back. I’ve seen too many departments were fundraising and the ED aren’t on the same page which causes tension. Still worth looking into, though!

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I have no idea how widespread this is, but most of the established nonprofits in my area do not expect anyone to work more than 40 to 45 hours, with the exception of a crazy week here and there – it’s not enough pay to ask for 80 hour weeks. However, fundraising/development is the one role that might be an exception. Communications I would expect to be more manageable.

    4. Felicia*

      I work in public relations, in a non profit, and we have a 40 hour work week, and it doesn’t put anyone on edge. It’s pretty laid back, decently paid and it’s not that stressful. If you look at similar jobs in non profits, you might find less stress! All my PR friends who work in non profits work 40 hours a week, and no one is on edge. I did an internship in an agency, and the environment there is so different, i couldn’t do it. So the answer might be the same career, just in a different type of company.

  44. Eugenie*

    I think I posted about this a while ago (maybe under a different name). My boss has announced his retirement this July. This has caused a lot of rumors within the organization and some serious talk of re-structuring (he manages 6 different departments that historically have been put together in a lot of different combinations). I’m currently the closest person to “second-in-command” my boss has and I’ve really enjoyed working with him.

    The last I heard from reliable sources lead me to believe they’re leaning towards not replacing him at all and just have all of his direct reports (the 6 department heads) now report to his boss and use the money from his salary on additional programming. I feel like this is REALLY short-sighted (additional programming is not supported by a lot of people within the organization and requires additional investments that aren’t apparent to people who don’t deal with it regularly). I’ve tried to make these concerns heard, but I’m worried they’re just falling on deaf ears. Not sure I have much say in this whole situation, but I guess I’m just looking for some support or hearing from folks who’ve been through something similar.

    1. Jennifer*

      This kind of thing is bog standard nowadays. If you retire, you won’t be replaced. Pretty much anyone who leaves where I work isn’t replaced. Very occasionally they will replace someone, but that’s only after 3-9 months of trying to do without their position and realizing the hard way that they have to. And if he’s a supervisor/bigwig, they seem to have less incentive to replace them. The money being saved is far more important, and they didn’t even have to lay off the guy to get it!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Will this mean you will be absorbing your boss’ slack when he goes?

      I guess I would make a list of all the things people depend on your boss for. (Okay make a list of the most frequent needs and the most urgent needs) and ask how these matters will be handled without your boss in place.
      Your hope here is that they see the light. If they say you will be absorbing this, maybe you can get a raise.

  45. HR Shenanigans*

    So we’re hiring for a very entry-level position supporting our operations and marketing departments. We recently had someone email in an application for someone else and in the email direct us to contact the person in the resume at a different phone number/email address.

    Has anyone else ever experience this? It just seems so bizarre to me. The person doesn’t meet the base qualifications we’ve set so they will not be moving forward to the phone interview round but it still just baffled me seeing it.

    1. Lia*

      Yes — I was a search committee chair a job that sounds similar to that one, and I had not one but THREE people send me their kid’s resumes for the job. Not one of these kids went through our portal to fill out the app, so we tossed them.

      Yeesh.

  46. waiting and fading and floating away*

    So I got the news Wednesday: I’m getting called back to the office after 10 years of WFH. I foresaw this happening last year, but there’s a difference between expecting a thing in the abstract, and having that thing happen for real. Ie “we’re going to war!” versus “a bomb fell on my house”.

    I’m still processing it. It concerns me that I’m going back to an ‘open office’. I’ve been WFH for 10 years, and for 10 years before that I had my own office. I’m not sure what it’s going to be like to spend 8+ hours a day with no privacy, no pictures of my family on the wall, no space to call my own, etc.

    Yes, I know I should be happy that I’ve still got a job, and it pays rather well. But I am not certain how well this Old Dog is going to adapt to this new environment.

      1. waiting and fading and floating away*

        > Headphones

        Good idea. I’ve got it covered. Although now I’m wondering if I should look into something like an Oculus Rift.

        *sigh* I can’t win: I’ll be dragging the computer and headphones and etc back and forth every day. I guess I should look for a good backpack, too.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          Will you get a desk or something with a lock? You could keep your headphones locked up and not take it back and forth. Will you be required to work both at home/after hours and at work? No point carting a company laptop around if you don’t have to.

          2. Ruthan*

            I wouldn’t expect coworkers to filch headphones, even if your desk drawer doesn’t lock. “Open office” doesn’t mean “all my stuff is accessible to the general public 24/7.” Same goes for monitors.

            If you’ll be taking a laptop back and forth, a good backpack or shoulder bag is totally worth the investment, though — I love my Timbuk2 Alchemist so much that I’m thinking about biking to work just to put it through its paces.

  47. Reluctant Receptionist*

    Throwing this one out to you snazzy people– how does someone grow out of a admin/receptionist role when there’s such low turnover in the organization? only 2 people have left in the 3.5 years I’ve been at the organization. I’ve had multiple conversations with both my supervisor and CEO about wanting to grow out of this role but it’s coming up on 1 year and there’s been no forward movement on this.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I think you may have to move out to move up. Some places have a lot of continuity and a flat structure so there’s no room to move up. You might ask about taking on additional work/projects outside your scope in the hopes of gaining a promotion/new title. But be careful how much you’re willing/able to take on and still do all the other stuff they want you to do in your existing job.

    3. some1*

      You’re asking the wrong question. Ask for more tasks, responsibilities, etc while you are still the receptionist (of less than a year!), kick ass at the everything you take on for at least several more months, then you will be in a better position to ask for a promotion. Just showing up every day for less than a year isn’t a good enough reason to expect a promotion, vacancy or no.

      Also, unless this company is less than, like, 10 people, I wouldn’t bring the CEO into this discussion again.

      1. some1*

        Oh, I read your post wrong, I thought you had been there less than a year, now I see it’s 3 and a 1/2 years, so I change my answer and agree with CCC – start looking outside the org.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Low turnover is good. . .zero growth is bad. Are you saying that they haven’t added any new positions in 3.5 years? I agree with the others that your best bet is probably looking externally.

    5. Student*

      It’s very pink-collar work that’s hard to “grow” out of. Your best bet is to take some sort of training in the field you’d like to go into (if you haven’t already) and apply for a new job elsewhere once you have the needed credentials.

      There’s a significant, historic view of this being a dead-end job for women, from the time when women either couldn’t or wouldn’t get careers. You’re fighting against a built-in assumption in many of your co-workers and managers that you are an admin/receptionist for life. Even if you do manage to grow your responsibilities at your current job, the odds are good that people will keep asking you to do admin/reception work long after it should’ve been passed down to someone else. Move on if you want to move up.

      1. Molly*

        This is a great point. If you do manage to get promoted out of admin work, your most frequently used job skill for a few months will be “Saying no politely.” I’ve been out of admin work for 4 years, but because I’m at the same company, I still get requests from people who just happen to know that I know how to do X in Word or Excel.

        Honestly the only way I’ve found to make that stop is to pretend I know absolutely nothing about Word, Excel, Outlook, or F&#$!!#$ing printers.

    6. Molly*

      Basically you have to:

      a) be at an organization that believes in promotion from within
      b) kick ass at every detail of your current job
      c) expand your current role to include more of the kind of work you want to do

      If you’re missing any one of these, you’re unlikely to ever be promoted from admin/receptionist.

      I’ve made this move twice in my career, and each time, it’s also taken significant buy-in from my boss. I essentially showed them so many higher-level skills so often that they looked silly keeping me in admin work.

  48. Kerry*

    Is there a business acceptable way to tell my manager I’m very happy with my current job and don’t particularly want to pursue career progression at my company? He’s been encouraging me to think about what skills I want to develop and ‘where I want to go’, which is good to hear, but I like where I am: I love my work when I’m doing it, but I also love that I can clock off after eight hours and read, write, visit museums, spend time with my friends and spouse, etc. I don’t want to move ‘up’ to another role that takes up more of my time.

    1. Dot Warner*

      How about just telling him the truth? “Thanks for your faith in me, but I’m happy where I am.”

      1. lawsuited*

        +1 Except I’d add “I’m happy where I am for now” so that you have room to change your mind later if the right thing comes along.

    2. PX*

      Argh. I know there’s been some similar questions like that here so maybe try searching the archives (or wait for someone with better google-fu than me).

      Otherwise one of the other tips is to think about things like generic trainings/general skills which you could use to freshen up your current skills/learn more – without necessarily being things which automatically mean ‘moving up’. Alternatively, even if you dont want to move ‘up’ – you could still think about how you might like your role to develop (do you really want to be doing the same thing in 10 years? maybe you dont want to manage people, but might be interested in learning more about chocolate teapot spouts in addition to the chocolate teapot handles you currently work with).

      Basically, even if you dont want to move ‘up’ – theres still ways to answer that question which arent ‘No thanks, I’d like to stay here forever’

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        “do you really want to be doing the same thing in 10 years?” +1
        If your company offers training, take it! Right now you may be happy with your work-life balance, but what happens if they get bought out/the economy tanks again and they start downsizing? What if two years from now you’ve read every novel you want and are looking for fresh challenges? Your boss may suggest that you apply for some other position, but that doesn’t mean you have to do it… or next month there could be something that piques your interest. You simply don’t know what lies around the bend.

        1. Kerry*

          What if two years from now you’ve read every novel you want and are looking for fresh challenges?

          Ha, I dream of being able to read every book (not just novels) I want! I may have phrased this in a way that sounds flippant, but just to underline that my main life goals are outside work, not in it – I have a few really exciting challenges and big projects in my life, but they’re things I’m choosing to do, not being compensated for. I genuinely would be happy in 10 years doing the same job – which is challenging but not draining, involves a steady slow increase in skills (like languages) and is well compensated enough that I can do the things I really love. (It’s also in a fairly high demand area and although there’s no way to tell what will happen, I’ve never heard of a colleague or friend in the industry being out of work for more than a month or two. But I don’t think it’s worth worrying about a catastrophe that will change the whole landscape of my industry, because there’s no way to prepare for it without knowing what direction it will be in.)

          I really like the idea of thinking about it in terms of skills acquisition.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            Then look at it in that way. Seriously, if your employer said to you “If you start contributing to your retirement plan up to $X per year, we’ll match your contribution” wouldn’t it be worth it to put $100 in to get another $100? If they are willing to offer money or time or both to train you in more languages/better grammar/whatever it is your job requires that would only make you better at your job (which sounds pretty sweet), why wouldn’t you do it? You may not want to move up in role, but gaining more skills could lead to better projects or salary increases or other benefits. It could make you more employable if your spouse wants/has to move to another city/coast/country for their career. Doing what I do, being self employed, *I’m* the one who has to decide what extra training I need, whether or not I have time for it, if I can afford to pay for it, if it’s worth taking. I would absolutely love it if someone said to me “Hey, I’ve got $XK that I’m going to give you so you can study Y and be better at your work.” It’s one of the reasons I buy lottery tickets :P

    3. LMW*

      Since you don’t want to move up, perhaps think about what skills you can develop to get better at what you do? What will help keep it interesting in the long run? How can you continue to increase job security?

  49. Cruciatus*

    Job applications are making me feel stupid. And it’s annoying since I sent in my cover letter and resume. I need some help! Does anyone have any special insights into university employment applications?

    1)Does it matter how I fill out the application and get it back to them? Can I fill it out electronically, or is it better to hand write it (and scan it)? I always wonder if they want to see if you can write legibly? Overthinking it, I know.
    2)Can I get out of putting my driver’s license # (the only time I’d need a car is to get to work, it’s not a driving position)?
    3) They ask about any motor vehicle accidents. I was in once when I was 20 (13 years ago). The other guy was found 100% at fault. I don’t even remember that many details it was so long ago. This seems weird to me as, again, it’s not a driving job.
    4) There is one section that says “Do not complete the next 3 questions until you have spoken to HR or area supervisior”. Those questions are: have the job duties/requirements been explained, do you understand these requirements, can you perform the requirements without reasonable accommodation? Am I supposed to call HR? Do I leave it blank for now and send it back and then they’ll give it back to me if I’m interviewed? WTH?
    5) I have a Master’s degree and there is a section for “highest education received” with 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 16+. Am I 16+ Does it matter that I graduated college in 3 years? I had 4 years’ worth of credits.
    6) Concentration of study…for high school. What? I don’t know how to be un-snarky about it. Do people have special concentrations in high school? I just learned the normal stuff.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      This is a prime example of the one size fits all/nobody application materials at universities. The person driving the mail truck (driver’s license/accident history) gets the same form as the person applying for the research coordinator position (master’s degree not listed on education level).

      Unfortunately, omitting any of these items can probably be grounds for not hiring (or firing you later, if they find out).

      My comments on your questions:

      1) Does it matter how I fill out the application and get it back to them? Can I fill it out electronically, or is it better to hand write it (and scan it)? I always wonder if they want to see if you can write legibly? Overthinking it, I know.

      Fill it out electronically. Nobody at any university I’ve ever worked at cares about your handwriting because we all type everything.

      2)Can I get out of putting my driver’s license # (the only time I’d need a car is to get to work, it’s not a driving position)?

      Probably not.

      3) They ask about any motor vehicle accidents. I was in once when I was 20 (13 years ago). The other guy was found 100% at fault. I don’t even remember that many details it was so long ago. This seems weird to me as, again, it’s not a driving job.

      It’s 13 years ago. You could probably leave it off, but if you put it in, you say “1 accident in 2002, not at fault.”

      4) There is one section that says “Do not complete the next 3 questions until you have spoken to HR or area supervisior”. Those questions are: have the job duties/requirements been explained, do you understand these requirements, can you perform the requirements without reasonable accommodation? Am I supposed to call HR? Do I leave it blank for now and send it back and then they’ll give it back to me if I’m interviewed? WTH?

      I’d take them at their word and leave it blank. If it’s that important, someone is going to come back and ask you to fill it in.

      5) I have a Master’s degree and there is a section for “highest education received” with 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 16+. Am I 16+ Does it matter that I graduated college in 3 years? I had 4 years’ worth of credits.

      I don’t know what country you’re in, but assuming 12 takes you through the end of high school, and you have a master’s degree, you’re 16 plus. You may have done four years of college credits in three years, but it’s still a four year degree so your level doesn’t change.

      6) Concentration of study…for high school. What? I don’t know how to be un-snarky about it. Do people have special concentrations in high school? I just learned the normal stuff.

      I’ve always answered this “college preparatory” (as opposed to vocational program or something else).

      I

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      1. No they aren’t looking at handwriting. Fill it out electronically.
      2. It’s probably for some aspect of background check. Fill it out.
      3. I would say no. I’m not sure why they are asking unless they are using a very generic application that would work all sorts of jobs.
      4. This is super weird but I would leave it blank.
      5. I’d go with 16+. That’s a best guess. And it’s super weird.
      6. It’s a thing now at some high schools. I’d just put something like “college preparatory”.

    3. Sunflower*

      As always, looks like universities are at the top of their hiring game! I can’t comment on anything except 5 and 6
      5. Put 16. I’ve seen other companies work in similar ways. It must be something weird with the way their system classifies people?
      6. I usually just write ‘high school diploma’.

    4. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I can’t help with a lot of this, but I do know that the “standard” answer for area of study in high school is “General Studies.” I would actually *not* put college-prepatory unless you actually went to a prep school (not that anyone is actually looking at this, or at least I super hope they’re not).

      1. Artemesia*

        ‘General studies’ is a code in higher ed for ‘this student can’t cut it and we have to find some way to get him out of here’ — I wouldn’t count on people thinking ‘general studies’ was the classic college prep curriculum. College prep is the academic track in high school; I’d use that as the default. The alternative is Vocational track or some specialty schools do have a focus on science or the arts or whatever, but the classic academic track in high school is called ‘college prep’ and has nothing to do with prep schools.

        1. Cruciatus*

          I don’t know if I’m affected by that or not since I’m applying to be an employee, not a student. I have a Master’s degree so wouldn’t general studies be okay for me to put at this point? Wouldn’t that degree show I can (and did) cut it? I definitely didn’t go to a prep school. Just your normal every day high school (at least as I know them in my region).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The driver’s license thing is probably for insurance purposes. It could be that the job requires you to drive once in a great while, so they are being extra safe. I don’t think your accident is on your driving record any more, I could be wrong. You can go into DMV online and get your driving record. There is a small charge. But I would not bother doing this if I were in your shoes. It’s just the rules of their insurance company that makes them ask you that question, that’s all.

  50. StarHopper*

    Are there any teachers on here that have gone from public to private school? I’m currently teaching at a public magnet school. We have a good reputation, but I have been frustrated lately with things like discipline issues and standardized testing taking my students away for hours of instructional time. There’s an opening at a private school in town, and I want to go for it. I have tenure, for what it’s worth, and I don’t know if it would be worth it to leave my district or not. Thoughts?

    Also, there’s section on the application that asks for references, and none of the people I would want to put down know that I’m looking! I feel horribly guilty.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      depending on your location, you may make less at the private school and have less security. For example, my mother was on a yearly contract, with the presumption was that she’d be re-hired every year if she was doing a credible job. And that was just fine, until one day after 18 years, she was told her contract wasn’t being renewed. New school head decided that certain people were no longer appropriate to be employed (we’re talking experienced teacher with excellent reviews and the respect of her colleagues). Legal? Yes. Fair? No. Crappy? Absolutely.

      Not saying that’s usual or customary, but any benefits you might pick up (smaller class size, perhaps more classroom/curricular autonomy, more motivated students/involved parets) should be weighed against some of the protections you may be giving up.

      Re: references–do you have a colleague (not a principal) whom you TRUST to keep your search confidential?

      1. StarHopper*

        Thank you for replying. What an awful situation for your mom.

        I have a lot of good things at my school– a principal who loves what’s going on in my classroom and the freedom to teach exactly the way I want to without interference both go a long way. I just looked up jobs in a fit of pique after another admin undermined me with a student, and there is something that looks promising. Doesn’t hurt to put a toe in the water, does it? The thing is, I interviewed at that same private school a few years back, and was strongly considered though it didn’t ultimately work out on my end. I would hate to apply and not accept AGAIN, you know?

        And that’s a good idea about references. I do have one person I would trust to speak about my work and keep it confidential.

  51. jhhj*

    Based on a discussion from the other day, who typically pays for certification an employee needs to continue in their job? For lawyers, doctors, accountants, teachers, etc — is this typically paid by the law firm, accounting firm, school board, or by the employee, and if it’s paid by the company, what is the usual setup?

    (Briefly: for university courses which the government requires, we repay all fees (and give a bonus) on successful completion of a course; typically a one semester course costs 2 days pay for an employee. We just pay for other courses which we would like employees to take. We also pay for tutors or mentors as needed for the university courses. This has not had any complaints so we’re not thinking of changing it, but I wondered what is standard.)

    1. hermit crab*

      We have tuition reimbursement for both “required” and “voluntary” coursework. (The “required” situation is what you’re describing.) For both situations, the process is the same, and the company will reimburse up to a set amount per year, with some gradations based on how long you’ve been working here. The only difference is that for “voluntary” courses, you have to write a justification of why it’s relevant to your job/how it will benefit the company and have it approved by a few people.

        1. hermit crab*

          You have to apply for reimbursement before the class starts, but you get the money when you demonstrate that you’ve passed (or, for graded courses, I think you have to prove that you’ve gotten at least a B-).

    2. StarHopper*

      As a teacher, I can tell you that public school districts do not typically pay for the continuing education courses they require.

      1. Lizzie*

        Or if they do, it’s a pathetically small amount – like, $100 bucks per year, or something, which in my state (where a Master’s is required for professional certification) is just insulting. (Luckily my district is a rare exception and pays 50% for up to 2 classes per year! You do have to pay upfront and only get reimbursed upon successful (B or better) completion, though.)

    3. variety*

      I’m sure it varies and may depend on what you can negotiate. Husband and son are licensed professional engineers. Husband is in state government. The state has training courses that he can use towards continuing education at no cost to him. Anything else he pays for. Son’s in private industry and his company will pay for some costs. Generally for the most direct. Like the $20 cost for a continuing education opportunity that includes lunch but not cover any time away from work. So any time needed over regular lunch time he would need to take PTO.

    4. Not Today Satan*

      Law firms pay for continuing ed courses that are required by the bar association (but they might require that you take the cheapest course available).

    5. squids*

      I’ll be doing a non-mandatory certification this summer. Work is covering my time for travel to the exam site, but I’m paying the direct costs myself. If the certification was mandatory they would be covering the whole thing. (Local gov’t.)

    6. littlemoose*

      A lot of law firms and other legal employers pay the cost of CLE courses (or host enough of their own) to meet the yearly bar requirement. Most employers also pay their employee lawyers’ annual bar dues (in my state > $400 per year). However, at my public sector job, all of those costs are borne by the individual lawyer employees. I can usually scrounge up enough free CLE credits with some in-house training and some talks at the local law schools, but I pay the $400 myself every January.

    7. MaryMary*

      I’m a licensed insuance agent. My company reimbursed me for the initial state required educational course and testing fee once I’d passed the licensing test. I believe they’re recently paid directly for some of our more junior associates (it cost over $1,000), but when I started there had been a problem with people failing the licensing test multiple times.

      It’s fairly easy for us to find free CE courses. If we want to take training is not free, we need managerial approval. Depending on the set up, sometimes the company pays or sometimes we are reimbursed. I attended a conference where the company paid the conference fee directly (a couple of us attended), but I was reimbursed for travel. The company also pays our re-licensing fees directly unless we do something to lose our license. I believe it’s only ever been an issue if someone didn’t get all their CEs in time, I assume (hope?) if someone lost their license for misconduct they’d also be fired.

  52. CatDog*

    I put my CV on a job site and was contacted by an agency regarding a permanent graphic design role at Wayne Towers. I was dubious, given previous experience with agencies dangling imaginary carrots, but they insisted it was a real role that the company was using agencies to fill. As I’m looking and the agency is close by, I decided I’d meet them the next day, as the worst case scenario was losing 20 mins of my life.

    Of course, I turned up and the consultant I had arranged to meet “wasn’t available”, but her colleague (who only deals with temp roles) was, and what a coincidence but the job “had literally just been filled” (though they didn’t think through that excuse too well as they’d just told me that the consultant was away!).

    What made it even worse is that the temp consultant thought I should register with them as I’d “make a good receptionist”. I have 5 years of experience in graphic design, and I’ve never held a job outside of graphic design. I have the greatest respect for those in support/admin roles (I couldn’t coordinate a pishhh up in a brewery), but I clearly have zero experience or aptitude for that work.

    I was fuming. As you can probably tell, I am a woman under 30 – and another woman said it to me! I wouldn’t have been so annoyed except that they pulled a huge bait and switch on me by mentioning a job in my industry. Needless to say, I’m refusing to deal with recruiters from now on.

    1. Steve G*

      This happened to me twice in 2009, I guess people thought they could play with candidates because the economy was/is bad.

      I can spot those type of ads a mile away now: “Company: Confidential. Analyst. Extensive high level reporting and financial analysis. BBA required.”

      Always very generic looking. I don’t even apply to “confidential” ads anymore after those 2 waste-of-a-day interviews.

  53. Temp Anon for guilt*

    I have a confession. I’ve been a bad team member/employee lately. I’m about to move (keeping the same job though) and have been checked out from work for at least the last week. i.e. working on personal stuff for the move or too tired/excited/distracted to buckle down and focus at other times. In retrospect it would have been useful to take more time off this week, but I am already taking all of next week off to actually move and I just didn’t want to be out two weeks (there’s no one to fill in for me; my responsiblities are on hold if I am not in)

    So I feel a bit guilty about this week’s output, but not too much. Maybe I should feel guiltier than I do.

    1. hermit crab*

      I think that in situations like these, feeling guilty is actually kind of a crutch — instead of fixing a situation, you can just feel bad about it, and that takes a lot less effort! I catch myself doing this a LOT. If you are doing what you can and nothing major is slipping, I’d say just let it go. It’s clearly a temporary issue and things will be back to normal soon.

      1. Temp Anon for guilt*

        Two great points. I haven’t done much to fix it – just wallowing in the guilt – and if I think it’s a problem I should try to fix it.

        But I have done everything that absolutely needed to be done. Just been unmotivated to do the things I should be doing that could be put off.

        1. hermit crab*

          Yeah, I think you should cut yourself a break and just make sure to knock out all those remaining things when you get back. And good luck with your move!

    2. the_scientist*

      I feel you! I’m also about to move (tomorrow, actually) and I’m feeling stressed out, exhausted and scatter-brained. I just started a new job so taking time off wasn’t really an option but I really, really wish I’d been able to take today off to finish packing and cleaning. Being new I’m being super conscious of not letting this invade my work time (especially making sure I’m phoning utility companies, storage companies and moving companies only after work or on my lunch) and I’ve positive reviews about my productivity and work quality. So for me it’s less guilt and more just exhaustion and the worry that not everything is going to be packed up and ready to go tomorrow. Moving is the worst! Luckily my significant other is able to take time off work and has been handling a lot of set-up tasks.

  54. Anoners*

    HELP! Trying to figure out if there are any pay equity issues with this situation:

    Woman takes admin job, rocks it, gets a new job in the same company, but with no real increase in pay (definitely a promotion though). New department is all men, who make about 10-20 K more than her. Here’s the kicker, her job title is different, but she does exactly the same thing as the men. They don’t do anything different. Nothing. They are also on the bonus plan, and she is not.

    What really is annoying me is the new person hired to fill her old admin role is a man, and is also making more than her (more than her while she was in that position, and maybe even more than her in her promoted position). The new admin guy is on the bonus plan, and she is not (at least not fully). The new guy is also TERRIBLE. She did about 50% more work than he is currently doing. He is actually the worst.

    I know there are a lot of things at play that could explain why the men are making more (experience, degrees, whatever, better negotiating, whatever), but this seems really shady to me. Especially with her proven track record. Thoughts??

    1. Joey*

      Raise it as a question: “It appears I do exactly the same job as all of the men, have higher productivity than a lot of them, yet have a different title and lower pay. Can you help me understand what I might be missing or need to do to advance to that level?”

      1. Anoners*

        That’s kind of what I was thinking. Maybe initiate the conversation as a talk about her compensation in general, and see if she can get a raise / being on the bonus plan without bringing up that whole man thing, and then go into it if he’s a jerk about it. It blows my mind how they think they can get away with it. It’s also in the legal field which just makes it even more ridiculous.

        Women really seem to get screwed over with this kind of stuff. It’s like, not only do you get sexually harassed on the daily while on public transit, you also get paid less then men! Yes!

      2. MaryMary*

        I might even bring it up without explicitly mentioning gender. “It appears my job is the same as what Charlie, Mike, and Wakeen do. Can we talk about what steps would be needed to make my title and compensation the same as well?” Or “Correct me if I’m off base, but it seems everyone else in account management is on the bonus plan. Since I’ve been managing accounts A, B, and C since December, I think it’s time that I become eligible for the bonus plan as well.”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I actually WOULD mention gender, framing it the way Joey did. If she doesn’t explicitly call it out, it’s very likely that they won’t put two and two together. So much of this stuff is unconscious bias.

        2. catsAreCool*

          I agree – don’t mention gender. If they’re biased, they’ll get angry at getting called out on it (and it won’t help). If they’re not biased, they’ll be annoyed at being suspected.

          This is business, and a properly run business should care about what people accomplish, not their gender. Even if this business is not properly run, treating the powers that be as if they are unbiased is usually the best way to get good results.

    3. LillianMcGee*

      I was all set to suggest that education/degrees might be a factor until that new male admin showed up. I mean WHAT? I call shenanigans.

    4. thisisit*

      if you are doing the same work as the men, then the entree point is to ask about changing your title to match. from there you could bring up your extra roles/duties and being fairly compensated for those, especially in terms of “internal equity”.

      1. Greggles*

        ^^This. I would also ask has this always been the same? Did your job morph into the same as the others? Also did you apply for the vacant position?

        Good luck!

  55. hermit crab*

    We’re interviewing for a new position on our team coming up, and today I got invited to what appeared to be a 13-hour interview. Turned out that the meeting invite was accidentally sent for 12:15am instead of 12:15pm. Whoops. :)

    More seriously, though, does anyone have tips on interviewing specifically to make sure something is a mutually good fit? We do multi-person interviews (half an hour with Person A, half an hour with Person B, etc.) and I’m really not in a position to judge a candidate’s technical capabilities for this job. Other people are doing that. Rather, I’m supposed to help assess whether (s)he would be a good fit with our small and highly collaborative team. Any recommendations for good questions to ask or good information to provide?

    1. Dawn*

      For me when I’ve been in this kind of situation it’s sort of a “you just know” kind of thing. Look over their resume, see if there’s anything you want to ask them about, and otherwise just have a few questions that are generic and open ended. Let them talk about whatever, ask follow up questions, and from 30 min with them you’ll get a good feel for them as a person and that will help you figure out if you can see them fitting in or not. The last time I interviewed people like that, there was one person that was a solid NO, one person that was an EH, one person that was a “I could probably stand this person IF my manager hand held them and IF they weren’t withholding too much of their personality”, and one person that was a DEAR GOD YES OFFER THEM THE JOB ALREADY. The last person looked “worse” on paper but was just such an immediate click once we got to talking that I knew I wanted them on the team.

    2. thisisit*

      i think it would be helpful to think about the qualities of the person you’d like on the team, and then ask questions to get at those. the standards ones of how did you deal with competing priorities, difficult coworkers, tasks outside of job description, etc, could be illuminating. and maybe some more open-ended questions about what they are looking for in terms of a work environment, teammates, supervision, etc.

    1. fposte*

      In what context? Is this an “are you a job-hopper” question? If so, the answer depends on what else is on your resume and the reason for the departures.

      1. Forrest*

        Two temp jobs out of college, about a 1 and a half each. 5 months at one job before being fired. Two and a half years at a job after that – moved on because I needed more money and there was no advancement. And now my current job, almost two years. No interest in actively moving on but still, kind of curious.

        1. Natalie*

          Well, the temp jobs don’t count – they’re supposed to be temporary. (Hopefully you have them marked that way on your resume.)

          That rest doesn’t sound especially job-hoppery to me.

        2. fposte*

          I’d say that’s middling; those are actually pretty long stints for temp jobs, and 2 1/2 years of your own volition isn’t unreasonable. I think a longer stint would probably serve your narrative well right now (I’d say 4-5 years), but that how much it would help you is likely to be industry dependent, and I wouldn’t suffer to make it happen if I hated the job and found a good opportunity earlier.

          But I’ll be interested to hear what others think.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      It depends on the background and the context of the work. I know one person who’s pretty senior but hasn’t been in one position more than 2 years. He leaves for better jobs and in some cases, has gone back to his old company for a promotion. I don’t really consider him a job-hopper.

      I think a lot of short-term positions, under 2 years, especially early in your career and without growth, would probably indicate the person is a job-hopper.

    3. Ruthan*

      Really depends on the area. I’m honestly surprised when I meet a web developer who’s been at the same company for more than 2 years.

  57. Anon for this one*

    Is it good idea to disclose depression to your supervisor if it’s been intermittently affecting your work over the past 6 month, and you just recently sought treatment?

    I had/have been suffering insomnia that was making it harder to get out of bed early enough to make it to work on time. I would be about 10-15 minutes late and on the few times I took sleep aides I slept through alarm and was an hour late. I stopped taking the sleep aides.

    Supervisor told me lateness was a problem and asked what was going on. All I said was that I have a lot of trouble getting up in the mornings and sometimes I sleep through the alarm. I never mentioned the depression. Now that I’m finally seeking treatment and about to be back on meds I wonder if it’s a good idea to tell supervisor? I’m thinking maybe the context cover me in the event that I’m late again, but I also know a lot of people think mental health issues can be overcome with willpower. What do you all think?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      It makes me both sad and relieved that so many other people struggle with this, as I see in the open threads almost every week.

      First, you said that you think the context might cover you in the event that you’re late again. I personally feel you shouldn’t tell your supervisor for that reason. If you believe the treatment and medication is going to improve your situation, you could share some details (as much or as little as you’re comfortable with). You could tell them you’ve had health issues lately but they’re being treated and they should see improvement – or if you’re very comfortable with them, you could share more details.

    2. fposte*

      It’s not going to cover you just because it’s an illness, though. The supervisor doesn’t have to accept your being late because of illness unless you’ve discussed it as a reasonable accommodation under the ADA.

      That being said, I think if you generally find your supervisor to be a decent human it might be worth a discussion: “I just wanted to put you in the picture that I’ve started treatment for depression, which was a big contributor to my lateness; I’m working hard to make sure I stay on time since we’ve talked, and I’m hoping this will help.”

    3. INTP*

      I would not mention depression. People add all sorts of their own biases when you bring that up. Maybe I’m a little sensitive today because in light of recent events I have witnessed multiple conversations about how people with a history of depression shouldn’t be allowed to hold high risk jobs (because of one person’s actions out of millions).

      I would mention severe insomnia, and that a medication you take for the insomnia caused you to sleep through alarms so you stopped taking it. I only advise disclosing medical information if the medical diagnosis is less likely to result in negative bias than what people will think if you don’t disclose it – I think that if you just say you have a hard time getting up in the mornings, people are likely to think either a) everyone has a hard time waking up in the mornings, so why can’t you suck it up and deal? or b) that you are having a hard time because you are staying up too late, maybe partying, etc. But the depression is unnecessary information, just the insomnia alone is sufficient.

      1. CLT*

        I don’t know that I would even label it as insomnia. I would just say that I had a health issue that was affecting my sleep, but treatment is now helping…

  58. Azalea*

    A few weeks ago, I posted my concern about my office’s extreme isolation – in particular, my lack of access to bathroom facilities, in regard to the future possibility of me becoming pregnant. My boss has severe ADD that manifests in procrastinating, and tends to not deal with things until they become emergencies or the issue is forced – which usually results in very bad feelings all around.

    Last week, I had to deliver some paperwork to our regional office (only a few miles away.) I stopped in to chat with the controller of the site. In the course of conversation, she told me how much she worries about me in my office – which I felt led nicely into me telling her my potential future concerns.

    She told me that when that time comes and I’m at the point that I need to be moved, to call her before I say anything to my boss. Her plan is to immediately come over to the site, be there when I tell them, and promptly suggest solutions – of which she has several. In other words, she will not leave the site until I am in a new space.

    I feel a lot better about things, and really appreciate the advice everyone gave me!

    1. fposte*

      Yay! I remember your concerns, and I’m glad you’ve found a workaround in advance of the situation’s coming up.

  59. nof*

    I know it’s been discussed here before, but what do you do when you are totally un-focused at work?

    I’m in a new job and recently dealt with some depression, but now my energy and activity level is up and good – only, just at home, not at work. In fact, I’ve taken on a flurry of personal projects and feeling pretty good in that area, so I don’t think it’s depression-related. I like my job but sometimes I kind of dread going in. I do everything needed for the “core” of my job, but my passion is a “bonus” part of my job and that’s actually the part I’m dreading. I feel like my confidence is kind of shot to take on a big ambitious project.

    Any one been through something similar?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Oh, I wrote about this last week! I’ve been feeling really anxious, depressed and unfocused lately so I know how you feel. Sometimes I’m more focused at work, and more blah in my personal life and other times, it’s the other way around. While it doesn’t always work, I make a to-do list every single night before I leave for the day which helps me stay focused on the most important tasks so at least I’m getting those done.

      Why is your confidence shot? Is it work-related? I think figuring that out might help you decide how to handle it.

      1. nof*

        My confidence is down because of my experience with my last job, where I took on a super ambitious project and at the time I felt I did a great job, but didn’t really get the recognition I deserved – and now, I feel I did a great job, didn’t get the recognition I deserved, but also had areas where I could have done better and needed better support. So I’m a little afraid of getting into the same situation and not getting enough support or recognition (recognition is very important to me, just being upfront about that!).

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. That is so hard. And from what I see around me, recognition is hard to come by. You do something equal to building the Great Wall of China and people yawn.

          Please try to find ways to help yourself through this. One thing you can do is keep your resume updated by adding your accomplishments to it as you complete them. People have mentioned here about having a file that you throw notes in- could be compliments people have given you in conversation or notes to yourself when you feel you have done something spectacular.

          The other thing to do is to keep it at the forefront of your thinking, that your know-how and your skills stay with YOU when you leave a company/job. The company gets the short term benefit of your completed work. But you get the long term benefit of developing yourself as a professional. So the next time you are feeling the need for kudos and hearing crickets, tell yourself “I KNOW I did this and I know it is a feather in my cap.” Never underestimate the power of what you tell yourself.

          I had an employer that yawned at my efforts. The next employer gave me a 25% increase above the top of their range, because of my efforts at the previous yawning employer.
          No one pushes us to take on extra. Very few people compliment us when we do. And through out it all we are building our careers/professionalism/expertise and our employ-ability.

  60. Jessie's Girl*

    Ok. I’ve just started (in the last 6 months) interviewing candidates for different positions by myself. But I can’t seem to figure out how to end an interview with a candidate I know is a NO gracefully. It always ends up feeling awkward.

    Any tips?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Do you plan to follow up with all candidates that you interview? If so, I’d just say “Thanks for your time. We’ll be contacting all candidates by X with our decision.” Unless you mean that you want to end the interview early?

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Agreed. I wouldn’t end the interview early unless the candidate is really offensive.

        If you just mean what to say at the end, most end politely but neutrally even after interviews that went well (or when I got the job) in my experience, so I wouldn’t worry about the lack of “This was great!!”

    2. Dasha*

      Are you looking for specific wording to use? I think it would probably be easiest to wait until there is a natural pause in the communication.

    3. some1*

      What CCLsaid + thank them for coming in. Your “No” could be a client, customer, donor or member so you should be gracious for their time.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I actually would wait at least a few days for phone interviews and probably a week for in-person interviews. Otherwise people too often feel bad, like “they didn’t even need to think about it before rejecting me!” In reality, you often know it’s a no right away, but apparently it really bugs some people. So, a week.

  61. Shell*

    Piggybacking on last week’s discussion about good writing…

    What do y’all define as good writing in the business sense? I mentioned this last week, but I think “good writing” in the normal business sense is not that high of a bar to reach. If you’re writing as part of your job (say, technical writers, lawyers, whatever) perhaps the standards are higher, but typical emails and whatnot to coworkers and clients don’t even seem to demand very much in terms of language. Yes you need to have a decent grasp of spelling and grammar, but other than that, I don’t think people demand too much in terms of flow, style, or diction. So I was very surprised to hear people complaining about bad writing because most people meets this okay-but-unremarkable bar easily. So, what is good business writing to you?

    (I would also say Alison is an uncommonly good writer because so much of her writing is dependent on appropriate phrasing to people that gets to the point professionally without being offensive. But again, when I’m firing off an email to Coworker X about the teapot project, my diction isn’t under as much scrutiny.)

    1. soitgoes*

      I think a lot of people aren’t always able to embed the original question/remark in their email responses. You have to dig into the email chain and try to figure out what the response means. People also aren’t good at making sure they answer every point of a multi-pronged question.

    2. fposte*

      I can just *read* it. I don’t have to unpick it, or hunt for a later (or external) reference, or have to assume anything. When I’m done, I know what you needed me to know just by reading what you wrote.

    3. Mimmy*

      My expectations are pretty similar to yours. For most general communication, I expect proper spelling of common words and grammar. Additionally, good writing means being concise without a lot of jargon or very long, convoluted sentences. State your point, then clearly and concisely explain it. It’s amazing how poor some people write! (no one here, I’m just saying in general).

      1. Mimmy*

        Pffft…here I expect properly-constructed sentence, and I go and accidentally omit words! I meant PROPER grammar.

        Also adding: It’s fine to have occasional typos…it happens…but any more than that is pushing it.

    4. gloria*

      Oh, I don’t need anything from business writing other than clarity. I do find that people’s business writing gives me, more often than I would have expected, insight into how good their writing would be elsewhere, but I don’t hold it against them if I think they would be noticeably mediocre or even bad in other contexts – it’s just interesting for me to notice. And actually “good business writing” in the sense of being clear and to the point is something I had to work on (with very helpful feedback from a great manager) despite being a good writer in school, so I don’t want to discount those skills – a time and a place for everything, you know.

    5. asteramella*

      It may depend where you work. I work in a writing-focused role in an industry that isn’t writing-focused overall. Sometimes everyday communications come to a total halt because people send me emails that I simply can’t parse due to lack of basic grammar and punctuation.

  62. Principal Skinner*

    How can I tell my boss that high school work placements are very tiring for me and something I do not enjoy doing?

    The owner/manager here (it is a small family company) thinks that we are doing these kids a great service by having them “work” here for what seems to me a long time – the current student is in full time this week (8:30-4 pm). On top of my regular duties I now need to explain my entire job and work processes to a 17 year old that sits and watches me the entire time. Needless to say I do not enjoy being surveilled at work. The program itself seems to be a way of getting second-tier students off of the teacher’s hands and with an easy graduating credit – many students who come in are not even interested in my area of work (design), just “computers” or something vaguely art-y. I do not mind an informational interview but I feel that a week (sometimes it is more) of shadowing is unnecessary for an untrained high school kid. Is this the nature of work experience programs now? Or am I just out of touch with the youth these days?

    I initially agreed to do this program several years ago – I enjoyed it then, but now I feel it’s a cruel joke to explain my dead end job in a claustrophobic office (I’m looking for other jobs, as well).

    1. Kelly L.*

      No real advice, but these programs used to drive me nuts at one of my old jobs. I get the idea behind them. But we were kind of the only game in town for our niche, while also not really being the interesting part of that niche. So we’d get kids who wanted to be teapot designers, and they’d shadow us and find out how to be teapot bureaucrats instead. And I suppose that might be a valuable window into the teapot industry in some ways, but it wasn’t what the kids actually were interested in. Thank goodness it was only a one-day program. I have no idea what we’d have done for a week.

      The real kicker was the year job shadow day fell on a day we were closed. The high school sponsor was PISSED. Sorry, but we couldn’t accommodate students that day. No one was going to be there except maybe me, and they’d just be watching me sit in an office.

    2. squids*

      I’ve hosted 6 different high school students here over the years, and yes it can be a lot of work to supervise them compared to the work you get out of them.
      It’s really important to have a project, or a task, that they can actually do — if they’re just watching and listening to you explain, then that’s not doing your organization any good. And the co-op programs at the schools here want the students to get actual work experience (and a reference) not just a field trip.
      It sounds like this situation isn’t helping either your organization or the kids, so needs to be rethought. Are you in touch with the school’s program coordinator at all?

      1. Principal Skinner*

        We’re talking 3-6 students a year, sometimes for as long as 3 weeks part-time. I’m not the contact with the school – the owner is, and they do all the negotiations with the school.

        I have some projects on the go, but most are short half-day things. Also, I do not get much notice for a work placement – maybe two days, or five. They have no prior experience in this area so when I give them work, I have to dictate it line-by-line (“open X folder, now open this file”) which is…exhausting. Also I do not have a separate computer, so everything must be done at my station, and I still have to get my regular work done. I have a couple of low-level things they could do but it’s usually ten minutes and they are back with an expectant look on their face. I’m not cut out to be a teacher.

        I’m looking for avenues which I can discuss this without my frustration or tiredness showing. It may be that the owner says work placements are now a part of my job and that I’ll have to continue doing them.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          “Also I do not have a separate computer, so everything must be done at my station, and I still have to get my regular work done.”
          — This, IMO, is the one thing you need to communicate to your boss. “Boss, I cannot supervise these students because it makes it difficult to get my assigned work done. And, with only one computer that can be used, I cannot assign them tasks that will require them to use a computer as that also impacts my work.”

          To be honest, since you find all of this just flat-out annoying, I hope you find a new job quickly. But, you might want to consider asking to get more involved in the process of allowing these students to come and shadow you at work. “Boss, instead of just accepting anyone to come here, what if we could be more selective and get kids who have an interest in art instead of just anyone?” It’s just not right that he’s doing this for whatever ego reasons but expecting you to do all the work baby sitting. I’d probably do evil things like make them do pencil comps or draw out their names in the font of their choice in pencil. One person I know spent their college work-placement programme — which was a month — cleaning out the storage rooms of their placement. So that happens.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Any reason not to just be candid with your boss? “After a few years of doing this, I’ve got to be honest — it’s start to become wearing and I find myself dreading these placements. Can we revisit this?”

          1. Principal Skinner*

            Thanks Alison, this is the right response. There are other issues at work so I’m immediately jumping to worst-case scenario, which is not helpful. I’m forgetting I need to start low and then escalate if need be, rather than jumping to Defcon 5 (or 1) and quitting on the spot.

    1. Nerdling*

      I don’t think she’s being too sensitive. It’s work, not a roast. But I do think there is the possibility to save the situation by talking directly to Jack before taking it to HR. If Jack is a genuinely good guy, then requesting that he stop joking about her physical size and calling her by a nickname she neither wanted nor sought should correct everything. If he’s an ass, then requesting that he stop will lead to him doubling down on the jokes, and then it’s time to document and go to HR.

      1. LCL*

        Exactly right. Plus, she should tell him in the conversation that she won’t make jokes about his physical size ever, either. Big men often think this kind of teasing is fair game because they get it all the time.

        The one thing that really bugged me about this is that the word dot is used as an ethnic origin slur. One of the other native English speakers should have caught this and told Jack to knock it off.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      Interesting. I do think she’s being far too sensitive. If she has a problem with being called Dot then she needs to speak up to Jack. It sounds like he thinks nothing he says is hurtful, genuinely. So, say something. If he responds negatively then go to HR. I do think cultural and language issues are at play as well.

    3. Kara Ayako*

      I don’t think it’s all right for someone to be joking about your physical attributes and making a nickname out of them. Sema is upset, and of course she has a right to be upset.

      That said, the first step is to tell her boss that she’s not comfortable with the nickname and ask him to stop. If he doesn’t know it bothers her, he’ll just keep going forever.

    4. INTP*

      What Jack is doing is definitely wrong, and Sema is not too sensitive. But it’s tough to define as “harassment” because it sounds like on the outside, she has been good-naturedly going along with it. Managers should be aware that it can often be difficult for people, especially women, to speak up against teasing because there is a risk of getting retaliated against if someone’s ego is hurt or of damaging your social reputation and appearing to be too high maintenance. But it sounds like Jack genuinely thinks that Sema is not too bothered by it and I don’t know that “Not being socially aware enough” is the same thing as being a harasser.

      In an ideal world, Sema could talk to Jack privately and say that she is feeling that the teasing about her size makes her look less serious within the company, and could he please stop, and he would understand and stop. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring it to HR if you aren’t certain that a face-to-face talk would work out, though many HRs would just tell her to have a talk with Jack herself and report back if that doesn’t work out, at which point her choice would basically be to deal or get a reputation as someone who started a harassment investigation over being called small.

    5. fposte*

      I think it’s a really rambly article, so if Jack did something hideous in the last few pages, I missed it :-). However, if we were to transplant this to the US, I’d say that Sema should have talked directly to Jack at the beginning when the nicknaming bugged her, and then if he didn’t stop I’d talk to my manager. And as a manager, I’d tell him to cut it out–I get that it may (*may*) feel friendly to him, but that’s not enough to make it okay or wise within the workplace.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think that a lot of case studies are rambly. But I think that reflects life, there are numerous stories running at one time and how do you figure out how much weight to give each one? And what will it cost you to give one story more weight than the rest?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think that she is sensitive to the issue because she has let it go on too long.

      She has several problems running at the same time.

      The first one is that Jack is oblivious.

      The second problem is that she did not speak up when she first heard it.

      The third problem is that she let this go on for so long. This problem is more about disappointment with one’s self. When we fail to stand up for ourselves we let ourselves down. Now, there could be a very good reason for not standing up for ourselves. In that case, any upset we experience we have to remind ourselves that we made that choice because of this reason.

      Because of all this, now every little thing Jack says takes on extra weight in her mind.
      When she referred to Jack as Big Dot, she basically gave him the green light to keep saying this. He probably thought, “Okay, I call her Dot and she calls me Big Dot and it’s just a shared joke.” I am not say this is right or wrong, I am just saying this could be his thinking.

      I think that Sema’s husband is right. Sema’s thinking has her straight-jacketed, she cannot move. Her own thinking traps her. No matter what solution she considers she has a reason for discarding the solution.
      I think that Jack is probably more approachable than Sema realizes. She should try talking to him first. Because she has allowed it to go on so long she should explain why she did not speak up sooner. That would help Jack to understand the conversation and make the desired changes. And that reason can be as brief as “I did not realize how much I feel it detracts from my professional credibility [or insert other short version of her reason is here].

  64. Another English Major*

    Hi all! Question for those in the legal field.

    I’ve been working as a legal assistant and while I like the work itself, I have the sedentary nature of the job. I’m looking for a job where I wouldn’t be sitting at my desk all day. All my previous experience was in hospitality and education, which required me to be on my feet pretty much the whole time. Are there practice areas that lend themselves to a similar environment?

    My employer won’t allow stand-up desks and since I’m thinking about leaving anyway I think now would be a good time to see if there are practice areas that would be a better environmental fit. I don’t really know who to ask in person since everyone I know in the legal field works for same employer and I don’t want to tip anyone off that I’m searching. Even suggestions on how to find this info would be helpful. Thanks!

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I think all legal assistant jobs are at a desk. The only exception I can think of in the legal field would be trial lawyers, but I don’t think legal assistants often go to court.

    2. LillianMcGee*

      If you like the legal field and want to use some of the skills and knowledge you already have, you might try for a process server or a filing clerk. Those positions might not pay as much though, and the availability of those types of jobs will depend on the area you live in and the size of the court system. I work in Chicago which is disgustingly full of lawyers and huge law firms which can and do pay people just to go back and forth to the courthouse to file things. As a process server, you’d get sent out to file papers on folks.

      I do some legal assistant work but mostly office management, which keeps me up and about for a decent chunk of the day. My husband had your sentiments exactly at one point and left his desk job to be a firefighter. It didn’t work out in the end, but now he’s fully invested in the “blue collar” work style and won’t apply for desk jobs anymore. If you want to do physical work, you could also start taking tests for workers unions (pipe fitting, sheet metal.. whatever tickles your fancy). After a few years of apprenticeship, those jobs pay really well and will definitely keep you moving!

    3. Julie*

      Do you have any marketing or business development backgrounds? In my firm I’d say our office managers, our business development team members, and our marketing team all get around but still use some legal skills. I fall into an admin coordinator role which combines the hospitality and law parts. Also consider asking about health programs a workplace offers. Mine gives us incentives to do a minimum steps a day and they encourage us to get up from our desks to hit that goal.

  65. Shell*

    A discussion with a friend earlier on in the week inspired me. Would any of you work for a friend? Not just with a friend, or even under a friend (i.e. if a friend is your boss)–those two situations are hazardous enough on their own. But as in your friend is the head honcho/owner and the boss of bosses.

    I wouldn’t, since I think there’s far too much at stake (and is a situation far worse than just “my friend is my supervisor”). What do y’all think?

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      99% of the time, my answer would be no… but I could see a possibility if it were the right personality, we had worked well together before and everything else seemed good.

    4. Nerdling*

      Nope. It makes things potentially too difficult to handle professionally rather than personally.

    5. MaryMary*

      I have a couple work friends I would work for in a heartbeat.

      By work friends, I mean people I met through work, worked closely with, and now consider friends. Since the relationship began as a professional one, I feel it would be different than a pure friendship. And the friends I’m thinking of, I already know their leadership style, how they treat coworkers/direct reports, how they react under stress…

    6. Dynamic Beige*

      Hell, no. One of my acquaintances is in this situation right now — they took a job from a long-time friend because they needed a job and was told that what they would be doing would be in perfect alignment with their skills and experience… which hasn’t exactly turned out to be the case. As soon as they started that job, they lost a friend and they won’t gain one back if they leave.

      There are people I have absolutely no problem with on a purely social level — because that’s all it is, purely social. People have many different faces and the person you have such a good time playing tennis with could be a freakin’ nightmare to work for.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      In a small operation, just a few people then I’d say yes. Because I have done this.
      In a larger organization, no, I would not do this.

    8. asteramella*

      Never. The friendship will never recover from such a blatant power differential. I also prefer to keep work and my personal life fairly separate.

  66. Carrie in Scotland*

    I was discussing a project with a colleague yesterday for our department website. I thought it was going to be a small project but then it morphed into other things e.g. in August a new course will be in place, so the information will need to be changed.
    I almost gave myself away that I’m hoping to not be here by that time, I had to be very careful and say “I might be on holiday at this time but if need be, IT can re-assign the project” rather than “oh, I hope I have a new job by then.”

    How honest should I be with my manager, that my plans this year and to leave the city for one 150 miles away? In doing so, I will have to put my flat up for sale and my co-worker, while not nosey as such, is the type of person to look at houses for sale in my city and may just come across mine in the not too distant future….
    Help?

    1. AW*

      Are they the type to ask questions if they see a co-worker’s house for sale or, worse, go straight to management about it? If not, don’t worry about it.

      If they are known to bring up stuff about co-workers that they find out outside of work, you don’t have to talk about it. If they bring it up just say something like, “Moving is so stressful, I’d rather not talk about it at work.” Just because you’re moving doesn’t mean you’re moving very far away and you don’t have to volunteer that information. I had to move recently and I’m literally just two streets over from my old place.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        My co-worker and manager are rather close and have been working together for about 7/8 years. I suspect that if co-worker did notice, then they might bring it up.

        That said, you’re quite right about not necessarily moving far away….(even if house prices in my city are bordering on ridiculous). If there is a gap between selling and moving then I’d have to stay with my dad who lives in a commuter town, so your wording works.
        Thank you :)

  67. Mimmy*

    Guys, I have to confess something. First off, I want to express my sincerest thanks for the advice you’ve all given me over the past couple of years, particularly fposte.

    As much as I want to, I’ve been so hesitant to apply for jobs. I’ve been out of work for so long, I don’t even know how to describe why I haven’t been working. Yeah my volunteer work is sometimes quite substantial, but I really want to pick up a part-time job. How do I approach it? Most articles about long-term absences from work are geared to stay-at-home parents returning to work or those who were out due to extended medical problems, either their own or that of a family member. My excuse? Just plain ol’ lack of confidence. I’m probably not even employable anymore.

    Part of it is because I’ve kept hoping that my volunteer gigs would yield substantive experience and a quality network. However, it’s been much slower than I’d hoped, particularly my state council (due to in-fighting and other issues). About the only useful skill I’ve gained in the last 3 years is reviewing grant proposals and learning about what goes into developing and evaluating good programs. However, there’s no market for that, at least not that I can tell.

    I’ll also admit that I am just incredibly shy. I know all about building a good network and getting potential leads, but I just get so scared. A friend recommended I look into a support group facilitator position being offered for 1 day a week–the friend thought I’d be perfect for it; while I do have some experience running groups, it’s as the chair of a subcommittee, and most of the committee members are people I know well, so they understand my quirks. I feel bad not following through with this, but I have to do what I’M comfortable with. Well….that’s just it….I’m not good at breaking out of my comfy little bubble.

    I do enjoy my volunteer work, but I need to move forward. Getting out of my own way and MAKING myself do it and having the confidence to define what I want to do has been the challenge. I probably just need a good swift kick in the pants :)

    1. Dang*

      You absolutely do need to do what you’re comfortable with, and forcing yourself to fit a mold of an extreme extrovert would probably not work for you long-term. I’m all about taking small steps. You don’t have to jump right in and force yourself into doing things like facilitating groups, but what about finding ways to move closer to that? Get your feet wet a little bit, but not jump off the cliff without a cushion if you’re too anxious to do that?

      I found that the longer I was out of work, the more I isolated myself. And the more time I had to convince myself to NOT do something. Once I started working again (even though it was not ideal and I was essentially underemployed), I got some of my social confidence back. Beforehand I was convinced that I was turning more socially awkward and quirky by the day. I’m still definitely an introvert but interacting people doesn’t knock me down the way it used to, because I got used to it again.

      So basically what I’m trying to say is just do what you can. If that’s doing a few minutes of research every day about what kinds of positions are available/what you might like to be doing, so be it.

      1. Mimmy*

        I found that the longer I was out of work, the more I isolated myself. And the more time I had to convince myself to NOT do something.

        YES!!! I definitely feel like this is what I’ve done, though part of it is also that fact that I can’t drive due to my eyesight. Sure, I go to my council meetings, but even then, I’m usually pretty quiet (unless I’m running the one sub-committee I chair, which hasn’t met in ages–it’s not my call to convene these meetings).

    2. Not So NewReader*

      For approach I would just say that it was a family matter or a health matter what ever feels comfortable for you to say. If they press on the details, remember all they want to know is will you show up for work. So you can just say, the matter has been handled and I am now ready to go to work.
      Remember this is less of a deal on a PT job. Probably they will not think about it much.

      It sounds like you do okay in a role that is defined. Well, a job gives you a defined role to fill. It’s not like going over to someone’s house for cocktails and you have to work at conversation. So the next consideration would be what types of jobs would keep you at the level of human interaction that is sustainable, day after day, for you. I have a friend that will not, under any circumstances take a job where she has to answer a phone. The odd thing here is that she has tremendous people skills, she is a very good worker and a very good problem solver. But she says “No phones. Period.” You may find that you have a similar thing- where there is certain stuff that is a deal breaker.
      I am hoping that this helps to break all this down into bite size pieces, if you try to consider everything at once you’ll end up going in circles. Take each part of what you mention here and ask yourself “what is doable for me?”.

    3. asteramella*

      Your volunteer work sounds more substantial than many people’s paying jobs. You may not be getting paid but you’re doing work–you are definitely “employable.”

  68. SCW*

    It seems like AAM gets lots of letters about terrible bosses, doing horrible things to people. Many times they have lists of examples and things the horrible boss has done. But there are two sides to every story. Does anyone have any experience with dealing with false allegations of being a horrible boss? Especially when they are vague–terrorizing, watching staff closely, creating a toxic work place.

    1. Joey*

      Sure. I’ve had poor performers accuse me of picking on them or micromanaging them. Duh! Of course I am, but it’s because they’re not getting their work done well.

      1. SCW*

        So how do you keep things focused on performance, especially in a situation where they have access to a grievance process (like union or government) so that when they push back and say you are terrible it has to go through a procedure?

        1. PX*

          Not a manager but having read AMA quite a bit – you document EVERYTHING. The instructions you gave, emails you wrote discussing meetings, any work they submit that does not meet the requirements etc.

        2. Joey*

          I’m disappointed in your performance. I want to help you. I want you to succeed. Let me show you exactly where your performance needs to improve and let’s put a plan together to get you there. No I’m not picking on you. Once you can show me that you can do it I’ll start trusting you more and more to do it on your own just like I do for everyone else.

          And fwiw I’ve dealt with grievances and I always talk about how I’m concerned that they don’t see the problem I see so let’s focus on that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            The part about “just like I do for everyone else” is very helpful. If you have a track record of supporting your employees to do their best, you can point to that track record. If you are a new manager, you can point out that you are very committed to helping your people succeed, because if an employee fails then you do also. Therefore it is in your best interest to have an interest in everyone being successful.

    2. LillianMcGee*

      Yes, I’ve been the crazy boss that flies off the handle occasionally. I’ve always almost immediately felt ashamed of myself and apologized to whoever was the recipient of my ire, but still. It’s not good.

      1. SCW*

        That’s the thing, I’m not a crazy, fly off the handle boss. I’ve actually been too passive and too nice, so that when I stand up and say “here is the line in the sand,” and then “see that line in the sand we talked about, it is way back there and you are way across it” this employee is like “you make me sick” and I’m like “line? sand?” and the employee says I’m filing a grievance, and the whole thing is out of my hands. It is all the procedure and policy that I’m just not familiar with. I can show evidence of progressive discipline leading to this, but the issue seems to have shifted from problem behavior to me. How do you prove you are not a terrible boss? That bringing in doughnuts was just a treat and not an effort to make everyone unhealthy so they die?

        1. fposte*

          Why is proving you’re not a terrible boss your goal, though? That’s not really a management target–your goal is to manage people. You’ve got somebody who’s resisting management, and things are going through the appropriate channels. If this person is really suggesting that bringing in doughnuts is a mark of your disrespect for your employees, that’s not something that needs rebutting, because it’s patently ridiculous to everybody. If they want to talk about your evilness, “That’s not the topic for this meeting–we’re talking about your performance problems.” And copy from Joey, big time.

          1. SCW*

            That is a good reminder–I think the problem is that after I issued the discipline, she escalated it, and because she was already temporarily working out of another location, they opted to let her stay there while they waited to see what she’d do. So I feel like it is all out of my hands. I want to focus on what I expect–but she basically said I will not/can not work up to this level with this evil boss.

            1. fposte*

              Okay, then you’re right that it’s out of your hands. If your company wants to reposition her, fine, and if not, she can find a different workplace where your doughnuts won’t oppress her.

        3. LillianMcGee*

          There’s a huge difference, though, in being assertive and being aggressive. My fly-off-the-handle moments are anger manifesting inappropriately. You calmly saying that the employee has crossed a line is a completely rational way to engage with a combative person.

          If you’re normally passive and nice, then you taking a stand about something may read aggressive to someone with a distorted view of reality, which sounds like what this person suffers from…

          1. SCW*

            This is actually what my boss said. He was there for the official discipline meeting, so he saw how I was and said that if I had a problem it was I was too nice, not too mean. They just called and let me know they were standing behind me on this one. Though they will be sending her somewhere else and sending someone new in her place–hopefully not someone else who doesn’t want to be there.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          “It is all the procedure and policy that I’m just not familiar with. ”

          Any time you hit a spot like this, promise yourself to beef up your knowledge. It’s funny/odd how when we are not really familiar with something it can suddenly make us feel like we are on shaky ground. Put the time in getting up to speed. It’s so worth it because of situations like this. Know that you know.

    3. MaryMary*

      I had someone I was senior to, but not a manager of, accuse me of sexual harrassment. The allegation was entirely false, and luckily for me the situations he felt were harrassing did not meet the company’s definition of harrassment (he felt that my small talk questions about his weekend and his apartment hunt were signs I was interested in a relationship with him, he interpreted my training on how our client’s termination process worked as a threat to fire him, and my personal favorite, I walked down the hallway in front of him…on purpose). I forced myself to be as calm and professional as possible, and my manager, his manager, and HR were all very supportive. Eventually, his crazy made itself more and more apparent (he also had a 12 page log of my harrassing behavior, but refused to give HR a copy), his performance issues became more severe, and he was fired.

      It sucks while you’re going through it, but eventually it becomes obvious when people are making a fuss over nothing.

      1. fposte*

        “I walked down the hallway in front of him…on purpose.”

        The whole thing is horrifying, but was his issue that you were inappropriately taking precedence or that your mere walk down the hall in his range of vision was some kind of lascivious enticement? If the latter, wow, I must entice a lot of people. Sorry, folks.

        1. MaryMary*

          I *think* I was supposed to be flirting by forcing him to look at my behind, but we never figured it out for certain. There was also a theory that he might think women should trail demurely behind men, instead of boldly walking in front of him. He couldn’t elaborate when asked, but just sputtered that it was inappropriate.

          1. catsAreCool*

            “he might think women should trail demurely behind men, instead of boldly walking in front of him.” Yikes! What century is he from?

        2. Artemesia*

          ‘manner of walking’ was one of the things blacks being harassed in Ferguson were arrested for. I never thought I’d see an example in the workplace. Yowza.

  69. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

    I have applied for a job that I am very, very excited about (it basically be a promotion) and am anxiously waiting to hear if I landed an interview (I am pretty confident I will, but also don’t want to be cocky).

    Fortunately, I love the job that I am in now, although I am only considered support staff and miss out on a lot of opportunities because of it. I do like the work and the experience is building me a solid foundation in the field.

    I have one coworker though who does not seem to think I know what I’m doing. She ranks higher than me, but is not my boss. In the time I’ve been here my boss has had no qualms about telling me if something needs to be done differently or if it’s all out wrong or whatever, so when I’m not being corrected I assume that I’m doing pretty good. I also don’t hesitate to ask questions if I encounter something new or if someone stumps me. So it’s incredibly frustrating to have a patron ask an incredibly simple question (ie “Can I do genealogical research here”) and have this coworker appear out of nowhere, interrupt me in the middle of my simple, correct answer, and ask the patron to repeat the question. This coworker is also very nervous in social situations and will stammer out the answer in a very awkward, round about fashion (so for my example question the concise answer would be “yes, just bring us a name and a class year if you have it!”). The patron will then repeat the question and receive a longer, less detailed answer than the one they just received. Sometimes she will not hear the question but run over from her office to interject into my answer with information that is completely wrong for the question that was asked.

    I know this coworker probably had to fill in for the duties I now hold while they were in-between people, but I’m here now and feel like I’ve proven that I can either answer the questions adequately or direct them to the right person. I’ve tried saying “It’s ok, I’ve got this!” or “Thank you for showing me where that was earlier, I know the answer to this now!” but you know while there’s a patron right there I want to be incredibly tactful, and since the only other person in the office is our boss (who she has a close relationship with, having been here far longer than me and sharing more frequently-expressed political views) I really don’t want to take any action that could be seen as starting drama or complaining. Still, it’s incredibly frustrating and makes me feel really desperate to get this new job even though I’m otherwise content.

    1. Steve G*

      That reminds me the reality show that used to be on E about the sun tan salons (sunset tan), where one of the girls moved to LA and hated working there because the more senior/aggressive sales person would interrupt her conversations with customers all the time and take over the sales.

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        I’m surprised to learn that there was once a reality show about tanning salons, but I suppose I really shouldn’t be- especially if it was on E.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why not thank her profusely for all she has done for you then tell her that you want to spread your wings and fly. You think that because of “all the help” she has given you, you want to start doing more on your own and be less of a burden to her.

      Yeah. Brown nosing. But I think it might help you keep the peace, also.

  70. LPBB*

    I have a question about job listings posted by recruiters/contracting companies, particularly in the DC region.

    There is a job that I am very interested in that I am fairly certain is at a very large, well-known, quasi-governmental organization. (The job listings never specify the organization, but there are number of clues). I have seen this particular job posted by at least three different recruiting/contracting companies. If I apply for it, is it best to just apply to one recruiting/contracting company or spread my application around to a couple of them? I looked at the organization’s website and didn’t see the job listed there, otherwise I would just directly apply. Of course I might be wrong about which organization this is, perhaps I should do a little more research.

    I see this situation a lot in job postings in the DC area — jobs being listed by multiple contracting orgs — especially jobs that are in government agencies. The job listings rarely have language about “job available pending award of contract,” so I’ve never been sure if these orgs are bidding to fill a contract, recruiting for an open position, just gathering resumes, or what. If anyone can provide some clarification, that would be great!

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      OK, based on my personal experience that is, sadly, not from behind that curtain– apply to all of them. I work as a contractor in an agency that has 3+ contracting companies filling different roles, some of which are very similar. A lot of the job descriptions may look the same, but it could be a weird ‘jurisdictional’ type of thing where it’s the same role but different actual positions.

      1. LPBB*

        That makes so much sense, come to think of it. I’ve heard so many stories about the Byzantine nature of federal contracting, that I don’t why the obvious didn’t occur to me. Thanks!

  71. Amethyst*

    Just a vent. People do not read signs. We rent a lot of space to other groups in my workplace, because we have a large building. Occasionally, an event will have to move from its usual space. I can physically block a doorway with a giant easel that says “TURN LEFT FOR EVENT Q! <—" with pictures of Event Q, and people will squeeze around it and try to interrupt the meeting that's in Event Q's regular space.

    A long way of saying that I stood at the front door today telling the latter half of Event Q's arrivals to follow the giant arrows posted everywhere.

    1. fposte*

      It’s frustrating, but I also don’t think that’s a lapse so much as a human characteristic. People don’t go first to reading, and the physical cues are always going to override the printed word. So I’d say accept it and embrace it rather than expecting people to things they just aren’t likely to do. Put bets on how many people you have to corral and reroute :-).

      1. Amethyst*

        XD If there was anyone around then it would’ve been nice to place bets. The event coordinators are always the most shocked that people complain about not being able to find stuff. They’re like, “But I had Amethyst put up ten signs!”

    2. SCW*

      People don’t read signs. I work at a library and I’ve come to accept this. We have signs less so people can read them, and more so that when they ask we can show them where it says Restrooms. I’ve actually cut way back on signs, because I’m not convinced people read them, and they just clutter things up. Much better to not have signs and just have someone there to pleasantly tell them the answer to their question, especially when it comes to rules.

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        I work in an archives housed in a library, we are on the third floor of a three-floor building. We often have patrons coming all the way up to the top to check out books/ask about holds and are baffled when I direct them to the first-floor circ desk… that they literally had to walk past to get to up here!

        1. SCW*

          People always ask where the restroom is–it is behind the wall with the sign “restroom” on it. But actually it is kind of confusing, because the sign had an arrow on it, and it wasn’t clear if the restroom was around the corner or the other side of the wall. People couldn’t tell there was an opening in that wall. But when I’d tell them that it was just behind that wall with the sign they felt bad that there was a sign that they should have read.. I am actually having them change the sign, so hopefully it will be more clear, and people will not feel insulted when I say the restrooms are behind the wall with the clock on it.

      2. Amethyst*

        Yes, we’ve cut down on signs too. Some people request extra for their events but it doesn’t help. My brother works in a restaurant and says people will bang on the door when the CLOSED sign is up, demanding to know if he realizes the door is locked, why would he lock the door?!

      3. Jennifer*

        My volunteer job has tons of signs around the place, and one time they made us TAKE A TEST on which signs were where. It was a real pain, especially the sign that was hidden like, on the side of a rack in the back of a room.

        But yes, sign fatigue happens and humans hate to read.

    3. Student*

      Think of it this way:

      The signs are for a subsection of the population that avoids human contact. Like me. I’ll spend 10-15 minutes looking for a sign before I will talk to a human to ask a simple question, like “Where is Event Q?”.

      We are a minority, but we’re probably substantial enough that it’s worth putting up the signs. It just means that if you’re running large events, you need to know your audience, and you probably need a mix of human intervention AND signs. Signs solve one problem, humans solve a different problem.

      1. SCW*

        I respect this–and we do have signs for people like that. I just think a lot of signs are for things people are not going to change because they see the sign or they wont see the sign when it is time for them to change their behavior. Like by the time you get all the way upstairs, a sign that the meeting you needed was downstairs is less helpful. A sign on the door that you can’t bring your drink inside isn’t going to stop you from having a drink, and then trying to decide what you want to do.

        But too many signs makes them less useful. One sign stands out, fifty diffuse the message. Particularly when it comes to directional or rule based signs. If there are 15 signs telling you where different things are going on, it is probably faster to ask someone.

    4. Tris Prior*

      haha! This happened to me at work a month or so ago. We could not have made the sign more obvious, unless it literally lit up with blinky lights. People still wandered around confused, barged into the wrong room, etc.

      For what it’s worth, I’ve discovered that people do not read ANYTHING. Just had a potential Craigslist buyer leave, VERY unhappy, because she’d failed to read the clear measurements that I’d listed in my ad. It was RIGHT THERE. gah.

      1. fposte*

        And that’s why physical design matters. How you lay out your space will have a much greater influence on how people navigate it than anything you can write on a piece of paper.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          Which is very true. Also, many conference centres are enormous. There is one where the smaller meeting rooms are on the other side of a road, you get to them by taking an escalator, going across a bridge, up a flight of stairs, turn left then go down a winding hall — and that’s not even in Vegas. Staffing budgets being what they are, signs are cheaper than having people standing around at the various points along the way.

  72. Lisa*

    Do I wait for my review?

    Ok, company got bought over the summer. Everyone else’s hire date has passed by 6 -8 months. Mine is March. New company JUST started talking about catching up on reviews. We have several rounds of meetings in April to discuss the process, but no one’s review has been set up. Apparently reviews can take up to 3 months to complete, because they do a 360 system so the people who review you have like 2 months to give feedback. So I am looking at May before I get a review date, but then again everyone else will go before me so it could easily become March. Why the process was started or even shown to us after we were brought makes me angry. That I have to wait 6 months before I get my turn is ridiculous. My last company delayed reviews on purpose as a tactic and didn’t do retroactive raises. Some people have indicated, it depends on your boss if its retroactive. My boss is old company, so seriously doubt his input will matter for this especially since now 2014 raises budget gets to be shared among 2015. So 10 people that share my pool for raises are going to eat up the budget from 2015 that should have been for 2014.

    I have 2 offers, neither that I am excited about. Do I wait? Since everyone here is old company, no one has any insight into how corporate handles anything. They typically forget that have a Boston office when it comes to communicating things like benefits changes, and if you need to use all your 2o14 PTO by end of year. The entire office lost between 4 – 10 PTO days, because we found that nugget out on December 12th when the other offices knew the whole time. We were never properly onboarded, and they are not responsive to our questions at all. 200 person company too.

    Do I want and see? Or do I get out?

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      If neither of these offers thrill you and you can’t renegotiate them so that they do, IMO, it’s better to stick with the devil you know if you can still stand it. You can still keep looking for a new job that is better than the one you’ve got and maybe by the time they get their act in gear, it will be a moot point because you’ll be leaving (for a better title and salary, of course!)

  73. C Average*

    Ugh. Does it help at all to know the patrons are probably solidly in your corner on this one? I think we’ve all had the kind of weird, discombobulating experience you describe here, whether in a retail environment or elsewhere, when we’ve been getting perfectly good help and then for some inexplicable reason a third party barges in and tries to hijack the whole interaction. You’re not off-base at all to find this annoying, but given the power structure you describe, I don’t think you’re likely to persuade others to your perfectly reasonable point of view.

    2. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      Actually, it really does help. I don’t think I could handle it if I was being made to look stupid in the eyes of the patrons, but when I can get myself to focus on the fact that this coworker is basically just confirming that I know what I’m talking about it makes my frustration more manageable.

  74. PX*

    So I’m the person who is usually very vocal and enthusiastic about not waiting till you meet 100% of the requirements to apply, but I’m having a serious case of overthinking a job description. The problem in this case is that even though I meet all the required and most of the desired criteria, you can tell from the wording that they want someone with a lot more experience than I have.

    So now I’m overthinking this – will I come off as completely crazy if I apply anyway? Should I mention anything in the cover letter? *argh*

    2. Jennifer*

      Come off as crazy, probably not. But it’s up to you as to whether or not it’s worth the hours spent rewriting your application/cover letter/resume, etc. to apply for it. If you technically meet THAT much of the criteria, mostly you might as well go for it. If you think they’ll just chuck you out for having 2 years of experience vs. 12, then it’s up to you if you want to use your time on that.

  75. Rebecca*

    Question about a specific qualification on a job posting.

    I found a job, close to home (10 minutes away!!) that I think I’m qualified for. I’ve done everything described in the ad, the pay is decent, and there are benefits. I have one sticking point, though. The ad specifies a degree in a specific field. I have many years of experience doing this type of job, but I don’t have the degree, and at my age (over 50) it’s not feasible to get another 4 year degree.

    I have a friend who knows someone in their HR department, and she said to go ahead an apply anyway, it’s just a pro forma requirement.

    My fear is if I apply, and I don’t have all the qualifications, I’ll sour my chances for another position with the company if this doesn’t work out. On the other hand, they may accept experience without the degree, but it doesn’t say so.

    What would you do?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think many times, experience is accepted as a substitute for a degree. If not, they just won’t interview you. If they do interview you, and you still don’t have all the qualifications, it shouldn’t harm your chances for a future position with the company, unless you misrepresent yourself.

      (This accidentally posted below)

    2. katamia*

      If it’s something where a degree might really matter (like teaching or a medical position or something), then you may want to pass, but I suspect that’s not the case since you say you’ve done the work in other positions. If not, then you should definitely apply.

    3. fposte*

      I would apply. Really, I think the “sour my chances” thing is disproportionately feared; most places won’t remember, and those that will will grasp the rationale for your application unless they’re weird and unpleasant.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. I don’t think applicants are remembered unless they do something spectacularly awful. Applying with the experience and not the degree is not one of those things unless it is a professional degree actually required for the job (law, medicine, teaching, pharmacist etc) If you apply 6 mos from now, I doubt if anyone will remember you.

        They do remember the ones who sent in the weird resume, the framed photo of themselves, who hounded the secretary for an interview etc — but normal application behavior, I doubt it.

  76. bbg*

    I was laid off from my job last October, and started a new position at a new company in December. I’ve been in this position for about 4 months and am in a small department only me, 1 coworker, and my boss. In 4 months I have barely seen my boss, as she has been on vacation, family leave, or working from home almost every day. As of now, she has been out of the office to visit family for 1 month with no date of return and she does not answer emails or check in with me. My coworker is slammed with work and I ask her each day what I can help her with, but she responds that she is too busy to transition any work to me. I am concerned about the stability of this new position since nobody seems to care about utilizing me or needing this position. What do I do, is there a way to make myself useful at this job? If I interview for new jobs how fo I explain why I’m leaving a new job after 4 months?

    1. LCL*

      Who is acting for your boss when she is gone? Someone is authorized to do boss things if absolutely necessary. Find out who this person is, and ask them what to do. If you want to keep this job. It sounds very disorganized, but it could be an exciting ride.

      Unfortunately, it is possible boss will fire you when she returns, because you aren’t helping the other person who is too busy to delegate any work.

      1. bbg*

        That’s the problem, nobody is acting manager while she is gone. why would I be fired for not helping my coworker? Each day I ask my coworker what I can do to help her and offer to offload her work but her response is always that she doesn’t have time to even explain to me what the assignments are. What am I supposed to do in this situation i am trying! I’ve gone through the few refrence materials and trainings available to fill time but have gone through them all.

        This department is extremely disorganized so I am thinking I should start looking for a new job since my boss doesn’t care about the department or even show in up to work. But how do I explain this without sounding like I’m being negative/ complaining etc when I’m asked during an interview why I’m looking to leave after a few months?

        1. MsM*

          Stop asking your coworker what she needs help with and tell her she needs to clear space in her schedule to figure out how the two of you can divide the work, because having one person slammed and the other person twiddling their thumbs is ridiculous. You’ve tried being diplomatic. This is a legitimate problem, and it warrants a legitimate complaint. If it doesn’t get better, then tell potential employers that the company didn’t seem to have a vision for the role, and you’re looking for a place that wants to make full use of you and your skills.

          1. bbg*

            Good suggestion, thanks MsM! I’ll give it a try if my coworker even comes in the office today…

            1. MsM*

              If she doesn’t, maybe you can use the time to figure out what you’d like to be working on and come up with a plan for how she might be able to start transferring that stuff over to you? Hard to say she doesn’t have time to figure it out when you’ve done that part of the work for her.

        2. Sadsack*

          I don’t think that there would be anything wrong with telling an interviewer that you are leaving because you are extremely under-utilized. You want more work than your employer is able to give you.

          1. bbg*

            The only thing I’m nervous about was the fact I was laid off in the job before this and now this one isn’t working out, I don’t want future employers to think there is something wrong with me when it’s really issues with the organization! but maybe I’m looking into this more than I need to…

    2. Leah*

      I had an internship like that, and it was so frustrating. Nobody wanted to take x minutes to teach me something that took x minutes to do themselves because it seemed like a waste of time. But I could have done it every day for month, making that first x minutes totally worth it. It must be so much more annoying for a job. She’s making her life so much harder by refusing to invest in you.

      Depending on your relationship, could you politely tell her that while you understand she is slammed, you’re worth training in the short term because you can take a huge load off her hands in the long run?

      1. bbg*

        I have brought up this fact to my coworker previously that if she sits down to show me some of her work I could take it off her plate, but her response was basically she’s not the manager so it’s up to the boss to train me and she doesn’t have time. When my coworker complains about her workload i always offer help but she blames it on our boss. I will talk to her more seriously again but I just get the feeling that my boss and coworker are completely apathetic.

        Of course coworker didn’t come in today anyway. Also emailed boss again who i havent seen in a month and asked her what tasks I can work on, no response.

        Yes, very frustrating this is happening in a full time job. how much can I really do when nobody in my department cares?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If I were on the verge of quitting over this, I would go to my boss’ boss. Drastic, but there seems to be no other option. And if you are on the verge of quitting anyway, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    3. Jaune Desprez*

      I was in a similar situation many years ago. In my case, my senior colleague was territorial because she was extremely insecure. After I was forced to twiddle my thumbs for a week or two, I told her that I completely understood how incredibly busy she was and how impossible it would be for her to take time to train me on any her tasks. I laid it on as thickly and sincerely as I could, and then I told her that I was going to shadow her so I could absorb some of her wisdom without interrupting her actual performance. Then I grabbed a notepad and pen, pulled up my chair next to her desk, and watched her all. day. long. This meant that she actually had to work all day and skip her customary computer solitaire breaks, and it didn’t take long before she started handing things off to me.

  77. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Anyone have experience with issue/decision trees?

    I have a new job (as of last week), on a small team that supports a program. We will be revamping several aspects of the program, and I’ve been brought in to create the new systems we will be creating. Pretty fun stuff.

    I’m applying some consulting tools to the process, including decision trees designed to help us figure out which potential avenues for change we want to explore and which we can write off right away. What I’m struggling with is that the questions we’re asking are really open at this point (like “what structures do we need to better support alumni?”), so the decisions points are pretty endless. I’m having a hard time figuring out what “branches” to start with (e.g. structures that support all alumni vs. structures that support targeted alumni; or high-touch support vs. low-touch support).

    Any thoughts?

  78. Nervous Accountant*

    I wrote in last week about going through a rough time at work. Well this week went better. I think I was just burned out from working so many days straight. I took a day off to relax and put my head in a better place.

    I wrote last week that I was feeling a freeze from people. That got better…even my boss warmed up to me again this week, talking to me, saying good morning etc. No longer felt any iciness from anyone. My friend told me what was being said and I thought it was legit but embarrassing to think about what I had done in the past but I guess it was needed…

    Speaking of my boss I probably went against any semblance of good judgment and spoke to my boss and asked her when we can revisit my future here. She said at the very least my contract will be extended although she’s not 100% yet on making me a regular. She was honest and told me what I should focus on but not to worry about being let go in April….which was a HUGE relief to hear. I thought I would jump for joy but….idk. I guess I’m being overly cautious. I should be relieved that I won’t be booted in April but I’m focusing more on working hard and make sure I do well enough to stay. And part of me-which I try to squash because it makes me less productive-why do I have to work so hard to prove myself??? People w less experience are hired permanently and get benefits….why is it so hard for me? Not the best thought to have but there you go.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “why do I have to work so hard to prove myself???”

      I have had that question. And sometimes I still do. A couple thoughts I found:

      One is my perception. I perceive things as being easier for others and actually they are not easier. It is only my perception. I never pause to think that others think I have all the luck.

      Sometimes things did not go my way because it was karma protecting me. What I thought was a bad deal for me was actually a bullet dodged. If I had gotten what I wanted it would have become a nightmare.

      And yes, definitely do watch your self-talk. How we talk to ourselves does show in our actions/thoughts/work. Talk nicely to you. It takes time but it will help to change what you see around you.

      1. TL -*

        Yes on the perception thing! Often other people are having the same or similar struggles but you just don’t see it.
        Or maybe they did something very kick-ass and worked really hard and sacrificed a lot for it but you didn’t see that work either.

        Whatever it is, it’s not good to judge yourself by what you think other people are doing/how easily they are doing it. Just figure out your own goals and work to accomplish them.

  79. Joey*

    Apply. Absolutely apply.

    Theyre loons if they’d disqualify you for other positions because of that.

  80. Glorified Plumber*

    Curious what others thing on this.

    Had an interesting conversation with a coworker the other day, he mentioned, and I agreed, that it was generally best to be the #2 versus the #1 with regards to any kind of “matrixed” leadership chart. I am inclined to agree. At our firm, #2’s enjoy the same salary and the same job security as #1’s. At least with the engineers.

    There are many GREAT folks in my organization who are professional #2’s, and my manager laments a lack of #1’s all the time. Yet, no salary or security distinction between the two exists.

    I’m an engineer, and I am the #1, and I get to deal with any and all problems as they come through, from both ends. From up above, from the client, and from below. The #2 only gets to deal with problems I pass on to them and gets to own technical content and do “engineery” stuff.

    The issue is, #1’s are paid the same as #2. In a downturn, all the #3, #4, #5’s are laid off, the #1 and #2 are fine. As well, people who are good at being the lead end up being shepherded into those kinds of positions going forward. Limiting the opportunity to be a #2. The #2’s also move around from project to project, knocking it out of the park, but not as the lead engineer.

    Thoughts? SHOULD there be a salary difference?

    1. PX*

      To me, clearly more responsibility should generally mean more compensation. Is there a difference in title?

      1. Glorified Plumber*

        At an official level “Engineer 2”, “Engineer 3” etc. no. Whether or not someone serves as in a “#1” capacity is really a function of the specific project needs and the people available.

        However, we do designate a #1 someone as a project “Lead” officially and they would be free to use that title in emails etc. However, very few of us actually do that (I personally do not).

        The client will usually attach a 30 day notice on replacement as a “key employee” for those #1 folks as well. This particular client likes to flag a few other people who are NOT leads as “key employees” too.

        There in lies the rub, I’ve seen #2’s who are good at being #1 be pulled from #2 status to become #1 simply because they are good at it and no one else was available.

        Salary is a function of “how long have you been here”, “did you come from a competitor”, and “how hard did you negotiate for raises.” Jedi#1 who is a lead and Jedi#2 who is NOT a lead EVER because they are bad at it but good at being a #2 can and will make the same money.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      It sounds like everyone (all #1s and all #2s) get paid the same? Is that true?

      My field is similar to yours, and the pay is kind of all over the map. Some people’s salaries are tens of thousands different, in the same roles. It depends on when people hired in, years experience, if they’ve left and come back, etc. more than just what they’re doing.

      That said, I don’t think that #1s should automatically make more than #2s. Some #1s probably should earn more, and some #2s probably should. Is dealing with owner BS more valuable than being the company’s technical expert on advanced gas turbines? In my company, I think the general rule is that the #1s are more valued than the #2s, because they are groomed for future EM and PM roles, but there are some #2s who the company had to steal away from others for their technical expertise, and they got a lot of money to come here.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (The role that should not be paid the most is the #2 guy who CAN move into #1 but doesn’t want to, and also offers no particular expertise that a #3 or #4 cannot offer. Historically, it seems there is a penalty for the guy who is 60 years old and just wants to do the “engineery” stuff.)

        1. Glorified Plumber*

          SO true… we had a VERY adept senior engineer (the 60 year old you describe) who was exactly the kind of individual who could knock out of the park technically difficult first of a kind projects, but couldn’t lead to save her soul. Very nice person, coworkers loved her, very competent engineer, client loved her, just couldn’t close a project from 98% to 100% or lead more than 2 people to save her life.

          She made BANK and had a good time doing so.

          When we had LOTS of large projects, she eeked out a VERY good life. There was lots of opportunity to use her as we had projects we could PUT a senior expensive person on.

          As it dwindled to a series of projects where any one person is putting 10-12 hours a week towards it, it became more and more difficult to keep her. Eventually, she decided it was time to retire.

      2. Glorified Plumber*

        > It sounds like everyone (all #1s and all #2s) get paid the same? Is that true?

        I was hoping you’d reply, you seem to have been through a lot of this! Salary and compensation at my firm is a function of years of service and how aggressively you negotiate each “promotion” cycle. Through in there a 15% to 20% premium for people who transferred from a competitor during a boom cycle or came to us from a client.

        So by and large, I’d say an E3 with 7 years of experience makes within 10% of the other E3’s with 7 years of experience despite one of the E3 being a lead for a critical client, has a PE and stamps 100 drawings a week, is in charge of 13 people, and needs 30 days notice to be replaced, while the OTHER E3 is literally working on projects for the first E3. That is happening RIGHT NOW.

        Interestingly on the money/progression train, the E1/E2 transition is about the same for everyone, the E2/E3 transition is about the same with SOME widening based on skill (a year to two difference MAX), but the E3/E4 transition could be 8-12 years in depending upon how good someone is. Above E4 in the E5/6/7 ranges, it is a total crap shoot on who got what when and how much they make.

        An interesting caveat, “How can I be sure of this?” Well, about 4.5 years ago, a senior PM put a spreadsheet with EVERYONE in the office’s salary (was close to 400 people) on a shared public drive “accidentally.” About a quarter of the office saw it (myself included). It provided a VERY interesting look into who got paid what for doing what with how much experience.

        You make a really good point on assuming that a #1 is not automatically more valuable than a #2. Sometimes someone may have a knack for the client, PM, and up/down personnel exposure, but isn’t near the technical expert that the #2 is.

        Interesting you bring up #1’s being groomed for engineering manager and PM roles. I see this happening in OTHER (non process, like electrical/Mech/structural) a lot. Whereas I see so few process engineers willing to make the jump to a PE/PM role (generally we do hire our EM’s from within, usually cycling every 3-4 years to spread the love). The cynical part of me says that these other disciplines reach a plateau money wise and the PM route is the only way to achieve more. The real answer I am sure is something else.

        Anyways, not 30 minutes after I wrote that initial inquiry, my manager was out on site unexpectedly asking:

        “Hey, Glorifiedplumber, we had a large project show up unexpectedly and it starts in 1 week. I need to steal one of your engineers, which one do you want to lose?”

        “Well Manager, I only have two engineers, so how about rockstar junior female psuedo-lead engineer who could really benefit from the exact experience you just outlined?”

        “No, GlorifiedPlumber, client has her designated as a key employee, and if they don’t, they really like her. They’d be mad.”

        “So… what about me? I could use that experience, your new project sounds neat, and I am almost past the time we agreed I could commit to being a lead?”

        “Hahahaha… you’re funny GlorifiedPlumber. No, I don’t have anyone capable of replacing you, you’re a key employee, and besides, being a lead is really good experience. So, it sounds like you only have rockstar junior male engineer to give, I will take him. Tell you what, I can give you a senior engineer who is perfectly capable of doing this other project but is too expensive to replace rockstar junior male engineer.”

        “Do I have a choice?”

        “Nope, thanks for being a soldier!”

        Anyways… I was kind of amused by the conversation. I like my manager and all, but, once my manager has designated you a lead, it is a REALLY sticky role. If there was 20% more money associated with it, or something like, it wouldn’t bother me so much… but there isn’t.

        Sadly, I REALLY think the way to get ahead money wise in this industry is to swap firms probably twice. Once at 5 years, then again at 10-15. I think doing so would put you easily 20-30% ahead of any competition. The issue then comes down, in my industry, in this area, there is 1 big boy… and 5-6 small boys. The small boys are a one way ticket to a layoff in even a small downturn. So doing the big boy to small boy jump is risky.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Just hopped back on here after the weekend, so you’re probably not still checking this, but I agree with you on the final assessment. . .the only real way to get ahead is swapping firms (twice?!?!) I switched at 5 years, and I guess I’m on schedule to switch again, but I’m not looking to because I just moved to the PM role. I think I do okay, but then I find out about someone who is making $30k more than me (was the same role but 2 yrs more experience and just took on sales goals as a Sr. PM — made the bigger salary before getting the sales duties.)

          Here’s my take on the pay discrepancy vs. responsibility for your E3/E2/E1:

          I have a mid-level ME (PE) working for me who is only earning $10k more than a new grad hired in December, but she is in at 7 and out at 4, doesn’t travel, doesn’t seek more responsibilities. We were having a this salary convo, and I pointed this out to my senior PM. He said, “Well, she does a good job but she will never be in your position.” This was kind of eye opening to me because I never thought I was very special. . . so really, this is someone who is going to top out on the technical track and will take a long time to work into E2 (she’s likely doomed/blessed to be the E3 who doesn’t manage anyone). The Management knows this, and pays her low. She’s happy enough, I guess, and has a light schedule that fits with the rest of her life.

          I think it’s really hard to get the pay right. After 10 years, people who stay at one company can end up $10-$15,000 off in their salaries just by getting a 3% vs. 4.5% avg raise. I work with two people I graduated with. There is a $23,000 range on our salaries. Unfortunately, I’m in the middle. One guy stayed on the tech track, I’m a small project PM, and one was an EPC PM. Six years ago, we were probably all close in the “lead mechanical” bracket, but I was managing the piping group, one guy was becoming a thermal performance guru, and one was a EPC lead mech. At that point, things were probably not very fair because I can guarantee the lead mech guy was working a lot harder.

          I don’t know. . .I guess my words of encouragement are that it sounds like you’re making a good name for yourself and you should get to the EM role (if you want it). It is a different pay scale, so I do see the tech track guys top out where EMs and PMs don’t. I definitely wouldn’t make the jump to the small guy right now. . .with the low oil prices and all that, but I’ve seen that work where we had a lot of people go a competitor who opened regional office here and then came back when the writing was on the wall that it was folding. I’m sure some people were caught with their pants down, but the ones who did get hired back got salary jumps to leave and jumps to come back. I’m more risk adverse than that and am happy right now. . .but at some point, you have to consider that you’re going to be leaving $100k/5 yr on the table by not leaving for a 15% jump during the next upswing.

          As for the staffing thing, I soooo get that problem. Working on small jobs, we tend to get the misfits. I have a job kicking off where I get a P/T Chem E and a F/T new grad ME. Yay!

  81. Malissa*

    BS check please. When giving a reason for looking at moving on which of these sounds best?

    -Ethical differences-but can’t explain due to confidentiality issues
    -Bored at my current position/looking for a new challenge
    -Current position moving toward an area where I have no desire to work and not really related to my job title or degrees

    Thanks.

    1. fposte*

      It depends, but I’d lean toward #3–however, don’t just make it up if there’s no truth in it at all.

      1. Steve G*

        #3 sounds BS-y to me though, yeah positions go through phases, but can a job really change so much that it turns into a COMPLETELY different job, especially one requiring a difference degree?? I mean, it’s not like Finance jobs turn into Marketing jobs. This one might raise concerns that you can’t handle change.

        The BS part of #1 to me is that you write “can’t explain.” You should be able to come up with at least a generic description of what happened.

        For me, #2 wins if you explain how you did a lot but are outgrowing your job (of which boredom is a symptom)

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, if it’s not true, #3’s a no-go, but around here it’s pretty common for roles to change like that–you were told it would be recruiting and it turns out to be more communications, or you were told it would be web management and design and it’s turning out to be social media.

          I think what you say for #2 is fine, but I’m with you in not using the word “bored” unless you’re a major player in a fast-moving industry. It sounds too much like you expect work to entertain you.

          1. Steve G*

            Oh….from my (limited) experience when someone complained to me at past jobs about their jobs changing, it was usually not a big change when you looked at it from the outside, so personally for me #3 would raise flags.

              1. fposte*

                By me, any time a role that didn’t start as sales moves into sales, you’re utterly justified in wanting to leave it.

                2. Steve G*

                  Yes!

                  And as per Accounting to Sales Mgt, I’ve never seen that happen and can’t imagine it happening, but if it did, #3 would sound good. It’s just that when people at past jobs have been miffed about their jobs changing, it’s been much smaller changes that that.

          2. Malissa*

            What about saying the company didn’t do an expected expansion so the job isn’t as much as it was supposed to be, so it never really presented a challenge beyond learning new software? And I can back that up by saying the budget was 1/5 of what I used to manage?
            Does that ring true? It’s not like its been a long term job…and I think that it what makes me think this reason just isn’t ringing true.

        2. Marcy*

          ” I mean, it’s not like Finance jobs turn into Marketing jobs.”

          Ha! I actually had a Finance job turn into a Marketing job. The job I accepted was advertised and described to me as Finance, which is what I went back to school for. The title was even “Financial Specialist”. Somehow, after I got there, I was doing almost all Marketing, which was the field I hated and wanted out of and that is why I had gone back to school to get a degree in Finance.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      If you’re still employed, why not just say why you’re interested in the opportunity at hand?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It’s in the uniqueness of what you think of to say. “I am interested in this particular opportunity because of _____.”

  82. Hey Anon*

    What time do you show up on the first day of your new job? 15 min early, 5 min early, on time? If it matters, there is a bit of a process to get in the building and it could take me about 3-5 min to get to my office.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’ve done about 5 minutes– that’s involved calling up and waiting for a contact to collect me from security. If your contact is your actual manager and not someone’s assistant, I think you could get away with just calling her promptly on the nose.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If you think it will take you 3-5 minutes to get to your office then I would get there 5-10 minutes early.
      I tend to run a little early on my first day anyway. I don’t want to risk the chance that their clocks are fast by a few minutes and they think I am late. I can wait for them. If they have to wait for me- that one is on me.

  83. AAM Website Is Downloading Something?*

    Over the past two days, there have been two cases where I opened up the AAM website and an html file was downloaded to my computer. The file name is 0R9Xy8LQeF_100367888.html. Has anyone else experienced this? I have been using Chrome, latest version. I normally will just type in askamanager.org to go straight to the site. Just wanted y’all to be aware!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This should not be happening. If you’re able to take a screenshot of the ads that are displaying on the page, or otherwise note the ads, that’s what I’d need to track it down. (A pain, I know.) Thank you!

      2. Mimmy*

        Not sure if this is what the OP was referring to, but I just got a pop-up page trying to redirect me to another page. It had one of those “redirecting to content in x seconds” countdown thingies.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Are you on mobile or desktop?

          What ads were on the page when it happened?

          (Also, if y’all are willing to email me about this kind of thing instead of posting in the thread itself, that’d be great!)

          1. Mimmy*

            I’m on desktop. I did not make a mental note of what the ad was, sorry!

            I will email you next time with a screen capture.

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      I don’t know if it’s the same thing, but every so often, the page just stalls. And, I sometimes get a “the shockwave plugin just crashed” dialog box. Today it gave me a new “a script on this page is not responding” warning. But there isn’t any obvious file being downloaded that I can see. Not using Chrome.

    3. KAZ2Y5*

      This happened to me once on my phone. I ran my antivirus program and there was no problem, but I never could figure out what the file was.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Hi! Thanks for asking! I did a half week – it was REALLY hard and I don’t know if I’ll ever feel caught up, plus there were a lot of issues with mobility that I had to get used to. I have a whole new level of understanding for what it’s like to be mobility impaired – there’s a lot of things I never thought of when I was able to walk around with no issues. I had to alert our diversity office to some issues that I don’t think they were aware of about our workspaces.

      I feel much better mentally having work to do. I go stir crazy without it.

      1. Mimmy*

        That’s interesting that, as a Federal employer, the diversity office wasn’t aware of physical accessibility barriers. Apologies if that’s presumptuous. But this is why I hope that, someday, physical spaces can be more inclusive so that one doesn’t have to scramble to provide access, either because someone unexpectedly needs it, or to fix a noncompliance issue (to ADA regulations).

        *steps off accessibility soap box* (sorry, couldn’t resist…this is some of what I’m studying in school)

        Anyway….glad it’s going as well as can be expected. I can absolutely imagine going stir crazy if I suddenly had to be out of work for an extended period.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Oh no, not presumptuous at all – I was shocked too. They’re fixing the issue right now – I have no idea how such an oversight happened in the first place.

        2. AnotherFed*

          It’s really hard to spot mobility/access issues when you are fully mobile! It wasn’t until we had someone in a wheelchair for a bit that we noticed little things like our not-quite level floor meant that doors got stuck partially open and it’s really hard to shove them closed while you’re in a wheelchair, or that the coffee machine was totally unworkable from a wheelchair.

  85. Tris Prior*

    Good responses to co-workers who frequently tell me “You look so tired” or ask “are you OK?” when I feel perfectly fine?

    I’ve had very dark circles and bags under my eyes all my life – you can even see them in my baby photos – and makeup actually makes it look worse. I’ve accepted that this is just the way I look.

    It’s a very relaxed and friendly workplace, which I otherwise enjoy – I feel like saying something like “please don’t comment on my appearance; that’s inappropriate at work” would not go over well. And I assume this is coming from genuine concern… but it’s wearing on me. No one likes to hear first thing in the morning that they look like crap!

      1. Tris Prior*

        ha! I actually did that the other day. She went on to explain that my eyes looked very dark and puffy. Gee, thanks!

        1. Joey*

          I had someone tell me something similar “i didn’t know you wear glasses. They make you look so much smarter.”

          And of course i said “can you believe they hired me without them. What the hell were they thinking?”

    2. Ops Analyst*

      These are coworkers you work with regularly? It’s strange that they are asking you this when they know what you look like and see you daily.

      I like Joey’s idea. Or perhaps “Why does everyone keep asking me that?” I agree that telling them not to comment on your appearance might not go over well, even though they really shouldn’t be. I might start saying something like “Nope. This is just the way I look.” In a laughing manner. It might make people just uncomfortable enough to not ask again and it probably would go over just fine.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I don’t have the circles but I have seen people respond this way “this is just the way I look” and it shuts people up pretty fast. Especially if it comes with a shrug. Likewise I have seen people say “oh, that has been there since birth”. This seems to work equally well in shutting down the comments.

    3. Amber Rose*

      “I’m great!! Isn’t it a wonderful day?!”

      Combine energy with the slightly creepy factor of being over excited for no reason.

        1. Amber Rose*

          It works well! I’m fair skinned enough that people flinch when they see me in direct sunlight, so the circles under my eyes seem super dark.

          I find if I grin creepily at people when they ask if I’m ok, after a while they stop asking.

          I also dyed my hair a lighter color. With dark hair, I seriously kind of looked like a vampire. Nurses would stop me in the hall at university and ask if I needed an ambulance. *sigh*

    4. cuppa*

      No advice, but sympathy from someone else who has had dark circles my whole life. My grandfather asked me if I got into a fight when I was 12. :(

      1. Tris Prior*

        Oh god, don’t get me started on the people who think I’m being abused and give me the dubious “well, OK, but if you ever need to talk, I am here” speech when I assure them that no, no one is beating me, this is just how I look.

    5. Gwen*

      I’ve found luck with a cheerful “That’s just my face!” Light-hearted, but usually enough to make someone realize they probably shouldn’t say it again.

    6. Anonsie*

      I have the same thing, in my school photos pre-makeup age I look like I haven’t slept before in my entire life.

      I go for “No, my face just looks like this all the time.”

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I have dark circles under my eyes more or less permanently, and I get awkward questions too. I go with a slight variant to “Are you tired?” “Nope! This is just what my face looks like all the time. Thanks, though!” and if you infuse that last “thanks” with the right tone, it comes across as much more “Thanks for being such a busybody!” instead of “Thanks for being so thoughtful!”

        It helps to pair it with a really sharp grin.

    7. Molly*

      I have a colleague who often gets the “You look tired!” comment who recently started snapping back, “Well, thanks for noticing, I’m OLD!”

      People generally button right up after that… :)

    9. catsAreCool*

      This probably wouldn’t be the best idea, but it makes me smile. Carry a small mirror with you. When someone asks, pull out the mirror, look at yourself and dramatically cringe saying “I look like that?” Then take another look and say “Oh yeah, I always look like that. Never mind.”

  86. Swarley*

    I just landed a new job in a different city. I’ve been looking through the archives, but haven’t been able to find much. I wonder if anyone has any advice for how to make a great impression my first few weeks on the job? Thank you!

    1. Joey*

      Be a sponge. Take notes. And don’t recommend changes to anything unless asked or until you’ve been there long enough to know what you’re talking about.

      Oh and be friendly and introduce yourself to everyone you work with so they know who you are.

      1. Kara Ayako*

        “Take notes” is great advice, though it may sound simple. You might think it looks better if you’re making eye contact and not taking notes, but that’s folly. Take so many notes. You will make a poor impression if you have to repeatedly ask people questions that they have already answered, and I’ve seen many new people fall into this trap.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Don’t show up late or ask for any special treatment. Take notes. Ask questions. Act interested and don’t act entitled. Even if you’re hired to make changes, don’t make changes right away – observe what’s currently in place first and take some time to let people get to know you.

  87. Leah*

    Hi, all. I have a general question, and would also appreciate some advice.

    #1 First, how do you deal with the feeling that you’re sending your job application directly into a shredder, or to the bottom of a huge pile of applications? It’s getting harder to stay motivated when I’m increasingly feeling like I’m trying to get in somewhere that’s just not possible, and this is all just a huge waste of time and energy.

    #2 What do you do if you’re applying for jobs that have similar or the same job descriptions, but are within the same company and probably read by the same few people? For example, Teapots, Inc, needs Handle Examiners in each department, including the chocolate, vanilla, and mint departments. I can write why I love chocolate or vanilla, but the job descriptions are identical and the company is the same.

    So far, I’ve tailored the cover letters to talk about the specific place, but basically kept the rest of the cover letter the same. But I’m worried that the Teapots, Inc, HR department might recognize the letter and then just toss it because they remember rejecting me already. Do I need to write an entirely different cover letter for each job? What else can I change if the job is the same?

    2. Swarley*

      #1

      I work extensively with a large ATS (until today at 5, anyway) and I completely understand what you’re going through. The best advice comes from Alison, which is to just submit the application and move on. If you’re contacted for an interview, great. If not, no time lost worrying over something that’s out of your control. Good luck!

    3. AnotherFed*

      #1. Remember that there really are people on the receiving end, and they are combing through those applications. They’re hiring because they really need some one to do the work they have, and can’t wait to get the right person on board. Just keep trying to make your resume and cover letter show them that you’re they’re right person. Once you do that, though, move on to the next one!

  88. Ruth (UK)*

    Aah! So I waited in massive anticipation for this thread and then 100% forgot what I wanted to ask, but now I remember: When/how do you know if it’s right to look to move on / begin a new job search.

    I have loads of mixed feelings about whether I should be job hunting right now. My main reasons for wanting a new job are:
    1. There is basically no room for getting promoted or progressing etc where I am. If I stay where I am, it will be in the same job/role, indefinitely
    2. My salary is low. I mean like £13,000 (19,300 USD). This is a full time job.
    3. I have seen very similar jobs or jobs that are almost the same as mine (or slightly more senior) advertised elsewhere (not too far away) with the salary range more like £16,000-£19,000 (23k-28k USD)
    4. Long commute (on public transport).

    Reasons to stay:
    1. My job is not difficult, but not boring. Think mildly more involved than data-entry, but nothing creative or anything. And I am totally competent at what I do. That’s very handy.
    2. This is my first non-retail, non-temp job out of uni.
    3. I like my colleagues and I like my boss. There are no shifty office politics or weird/crazy things or high-stress situations going on. If you ignore the low-pay thing, we are generally treated very well, etc.
    4. I get pretty regular hours. I usually start at 8am. My latest finish is 6pm, and often I can leave at 4pm. I never work weekends.
    5. I’ve only been here about a year.

    I’m not sure if I should be looking to leave or not. Also, I’ve already had all the holiday dates I wanted to take this calendar year granted (I get 4 weeks paid holiday). I don’t want to stay here forever though.

    Should I be job searching?

    I am thinking about forgetting about it until xmas and then deciding again then. But then I get feelings of wanting to look now, mixed with fear of leaving and finding a new job to be less good. Mixed with a general “I-can’t-be-arsed-to-do-a-jobsearch” and then fear of just being here for the next decade.

    Would you jobsearch if you were me?

    1. Kara Ayako*

      Sometimes people seem to get hung up on job searching because they feel that it means they’re committing to leaving their jobs. There’s no harm in looking to see what’s out there, applying for a couple, and then making an informed decision based on an actual job offer. Right now it’s all hypothetical. I say go for it. See what your options are.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Yep. In fact, I was in that exact position three years ago. Interesting, moderately challenging work that only I could do (I sincerely tried to teach people but it required a certain kind of person) and absolutely dismal pay.

      Job hunting is scary. And to be honest, my next job was the second worst I’ve had (Walmart is first). But I don’t regret it in the least. You can learn a lot from a crappy job, as long as you aren’t making lateral moves. And my crappy job led to my current awesome one.

      People grow and learn or they stagnate and die. Definitely if you feel like you’ve got everything your current job has to offer, move on.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      If I were you I’d start job searching, there is no harm in putting your skills to market and seeing what options you have. I did it 6 months ago and and am glad I did.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Your pros are very strong, IMO. They can’t make up for low pay wth no room for advancement, but if I were you I’d probably not be job searching yet. However like others said just becuase you’re looking doesn’t mean you have to leave.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Yeah, I think the problem is that both my pros and my cons are strong and I can’t decide which things really matter most to me.

        That, and a fear of leaving the safe-ness I currently have (from having full-time employment at a place where I don’t feel stressed or unhappy, etc).

        1. The IT Manager*

          I’m making a big life change right now. I have thought about it for several years. Last January I made decision to do it, but I was in a class that took up a lot of time until June. Then I was busy with work, but I finally made a decision to act in October. Took the necessary prep actions in November, and its finally happening.

          So … once thing you can do is to make a decision to start job hunting at some future date which will allow you make the change in your mind gradually. Maybe start looking at job listing for research purposes or working on your resume once a week now so later when you’re ready to take steps you have the background.

    5. Carrie in Scotland*

      Ruth, how do you survive on such a low salary? (in general) I mean do you have flatmates etc?

      – Depending on how your holidays work (I’m guessing April-March for the tax year) if you do decide to look for another job then just be aware of your holiday allocation as you might get caught in having to “owe” them back.
      – Post Christmas is usually a lean time for job hunting in my opinion, the same way it’s slow for other things e.g. house selling.
      – Personally, I would apply if something really strikes you as interesting. I know AAM has repeated her advice about not job hopping but I’m one and I’ve left for good reasons e.g. part time to full, different work, range of admin responsibilities etc.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Hi Carrie. Yeah I live in a bedsit and share with some people. I have an inexpensive lifestyle, don’t drink, smoke, etc. I don’t live in a pricey area so I’m not well off but not struggling and don’t need additional financial help etc. Obviously I would like to earn more.

        My holiday is fairly evenly spaced in how I’ve taken it across the year so that hopefully shouldn’t be a big issue..

        I think my biggest fear is that I’ll leave and it’ll turn out awful. This is partly grounded in my extreme level of relief etc following finding this job in the first place.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You may want to stay another year just to bask in that relief.
          Or maybe you could consider a part time job in addition to this job just to get an idea of what else you want to do.

          1. Ruth (UK)*

            Yeah I was thinking of staying a bit longer before thinking of really applying anywhere. A part time job on top of it would honestly be impossible. The length of my commute and the fact that I do a lot of thing on the weekend and evenings (regular planned hobbies or volunteer work) means I’d need to seriously give that up to have another job. And the main reason I hated my previous shift based job was cause it stopped me doing those things.

    6. Dynamic Beige*

      3. I have seen very similar jobs or jobs that are almost the same as mine (or slightly more senior) advertised elsewhere (not too far away) with the salary range more like £16,000-£19,000 (23k-28k USD)

      Should I be job searching?

      –> Uh, I think you already are!

      At some point, just about everyone makes a shift in their job. If you’re merely content to be working there, the pay is low, the advancement is nil and the commute is long, the only thing this job has going for it is safety (and non-crazy coworkers). Pretty much nothing in life is guaranteed. You could stay there 5 years and the building burns down, everyone loses their job.

      I say that if you are already checking out other salaries, there is no harm in applying for a new job. It will give you experience writing your résumé, how to behave in interviews. Just because you see a job and apply for it, it doesn’t mean you’re automatically going to get it. You could start tomorrow applying for new positions and not get one for a year (or more). You could apply to some place next month that’s more in line with where you see yourself going in life — and you get it. There’s no way to know.

      You’re young and now is the time to try things out. It will be harder for you to make changes when you’re older and have things like mortgage/spouse/children/aging parents competing for your time and energy.

  89. CupcakesAbound*

    *Annoying co-worker question/part vent*

    I sit in an open floor plan (a few cubes with low walls, lots of hotel desks, etc.). A co-worker who sits close to me insists on taking personal calls all day long. We have private phone booths whose purpose is for personal phone calls or long conference calls. Because of the open floor plan (and the fact that I’m a really private person in general), I always go into the phone booths when I make a personal call.

    She’s in the process of buying a home and is on the phone all day (which I understand is part of the whole process, but still). She’s on Match.com and discusses her dates on the phone and with her co-workers very openly and provides a lot of personal details. I admit that it’s kind of amusing to hear all about her stories but sheesh.

    And it’s not just that she’s on the phone a lot – it’s that she’s really loud. Even with my headphones on, I can still hear her. It’s an open floor plan and noise travels far and fast.

    I do feel bad in a way, because she’s new to the team (internal transfer) and I know she wants to be promoted. She’s good at the work she does, but i have a feeling she’s not seen in the most professional light because of behaviors like this. I’m not her supervisor, so I don’t feel like I can really “coach” her on this kind of stuff and I don’t want to cross any boundries.

    1. fposte*

      Separate out the “she shouldn’t be doing this,” which isn’t your lookout, from the “it’s interfering with my job.” Have you asked her if she can keep her voice down or step away from her desk on non-work stuff, since it seems to carry?

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      The advice that I’ve gotten and liked in the past is to choose a good time to say, “Hey, sorry, but I’ve got a phone conference/tight deadline/web seminar, and I’m having trouble hearing/concentrating over your conversation. Could you keep it down/move to the phone booths?”

      The key being, having a specific reason can bring their loudness into the context of how it affects your work.

      1. Windchime*

        Unfortunately, people like this just don’t care. She knows that the phone booths exist; she just doesn’t care whether or not she is bothering anyone. That’s been my experience with Loud Talkers, anyway.

        1. TL -*

          She may not realize she’s being loud or that other people need quiet to work. (I don’t need quiet to work so it’s definitely one of those things where I have to look at my surroundings and think … do they need quiet?)

          Anyways, no harm in politely bringing it to her attention.

    3. Alma*

      I was actually in an office last month where I was told that there is no cellphone use in the building. If it was absolutely necessary to make or take a call, I would have to step outside. And several times employees stepped out, where they could be seen on their cellphones, then came back in and continued their work.

      Brilliant – no one is disturbed by the interruption, and when one is not at one’s desk it is noticed. I was impressed.

  90. NashvilleBound*

    I’m from Chicago and have worked in a variety of marketing coordinator/manager positions in several different industries (education, finance, publishing) for the past 5 years since graduating college. My ultimate dream is to one day move to Nashville and work on the marketing team of an artist or record label. I don’t have any direct work experience in the music industry. I wouldn’t be opposed to going back to school for a masters degree in music business, but I know that most people who land the type of job I would want majored in music as an undergrad and did several unpaid internships, etc. Does anyone have any specific tips on breaking into the industry, and/or general tips on relocation from Chicago to Nashville?

    1. Kara Ayako*

      I have a very good friend who moved from California to Nashville. She currently works in the industry but for CMT instead of for an artist or label.

      It’s VERY competitive. What she did was move to Nashville, work at a bar to make money, and volunteer as much as she could for any type of even tangentially related opportunity. She stood out by being willing to put in the extra work and having a great attitude. Then she started at the very, very bottom at CMT and had to work her way up.

      Because there are very few jobs for many interested applicants, be prepared to make less than you do now and to take a position below what you would expect for your experience.

    2. CupcakesAbound*

      I spent a year in Nashville (2013) before moving back to Old City. I will tell you the city in general can be hard to break into – part of it is because it’s such a transient city (people will move there for a year or two to try to “make it” and end up leaving). I’ve had several people tell me that they don’t put much stock into making friends because people are so transient.

      Like Kara below, I had an acquaintence who works at CMT now in their financial department. She came to Nashville to work for a healthcare company (a hugh industry there) and almost by luck ended up working for CMT. I believe she had some connection to their parent company (Viacom) though.

      I work in marketing myself (healthcare marketing though) and the industry is very competitive in Nashville – lots of good people and not a lot of jobs. Marketing/PR jobs in the music industry are really hard to come by and not very well-paid at all. I have a friend who is still living there and she recently started working in marketing for a label. Her parents are wealthy and help her out a lot w/expenses (plus she just got married), so that definitely helps. I would recommend trying to get a job in healthcare marketing or something similar that pays decently, and volunteering/freelancing on the side to get experience/network, etc.

      On a side note, the cost of renting an apartment or home is very expensive because it’s a tight rental market (i.e. a lot of interest but not enough properties, if that makes sense). Coming from Chicago, it might affect you as much but I was shocked at how expensive decent apartments/condos were (I came from a smaller Midwest city). The area of town you live in will make a difference in housing costs too. For example, I really wanted to live in Franklin (a really nice, safe suburb just south of Nashville where a lot of younger people/musicians live) but the rents were crazy – like $2,000/month for a 1-bedroom apartment. I ended up living in Bellevue (West Nashville) where a lot of people new to town live and there are a lot of rentals. I got a 2-bedroom condo for $750/month.

    3. Vanishing Girl*

      I was born and raised in Nashville! I don’t live there right now, but am close enough that I visit every few months to see my family. It is still home for me. (Although it is weird having it be a new “It” city!)

      I don’t know anyone in the country music industry well, but Nashville is also home to a large praise (Christian) music industry. So there could be more options than you originally thought. As others have said, competition is tight for music industry jobs. If you’ve been in education before, you may look to work at one of Nashville’s higher education institutions, specifically their music school. Especially Belmont University, they have a great music school and lots of connections to the country music industry.

      You’ll definitely need a car. Public transportation is pretty bad across the south. We have buses and a commuter rail (Music City Star) that goes from downtown to several communities east of Nashville. The furthest on the line is Lebanon, which is about 40 min from downtown by car. But most people use their car to go anywhere.

      It is true, we are under-built for rentals: it was pretty expensive by TN standards even before this most recent boom. Places in the south and southwest of Nashville tend to be more expensive than other parts of the city. This includes Williamson County (Franklin/Brentwood), Belle Meade, Green Hills/Oak Hills, Hillsboro Village. However, East Nashville has gone through gentrification and is also expensive now. The Nashville sprawl is growing by leaps and bounds: so you may find that you can’t afford anything centrally located in a better neighborhood. Bellevue is a good place to look for more affordable housing. You could also check out Inglewood or Antioch on the east side.

      The city will shut down if it gets a couple inches of snow: please don’t laugh at us. We don’t want to leave our houses because we don’t know how to drive in snow and the city doesn’t have the infrastructure to actually make roads safe. We also get more ice than snow. On snow days, it will be hard to find bread and milk in the stores.

      There is no state income tax, but we have a high sales tax that includes groceries. You can buy beer in grocery stores in TN, but not wine or other liquors (due to a powerful liquor lobby.) We did just vote to get wine in grocery stores next year.

      Nashville is bad for allergy sufferers: it sits in a bowl and the allergens just stay forever. Winters are not too cold, but wet and gloomy. Summers are hot, humid, and we occasionally have droughts. We do sometimes get tornadoes, but not too often.

      I could go on and on, but I will stop here. I think the best way to get a taste for what it’s like to live in Nashville would be a short trip where you drive around and explore neighborhoods, commute times, and rental rates. You can also check out the Nashville Scene, the local free paper, to get an idea of the culture and how much there is to do there.

      Good luck!

  91. A Minion*

    So, one day, I decided that it would be fun to create myself a “diploma” from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. I went online and found some that people had made and I spent several hours designing my own and it looks pretty darn good if I say so myself. I even found a nice frame to put it in.
    So how inappropriate would it be to hang that in my office at work? Of course, I have my real degree in a frame and I’ll hang that up, but I thought it would be fun to hang the Hogwarts one too, but I don’t want to be completely inappropriate.

    1. jhhj*

      If you’re in a field where your degree is your accreditation, I’d think it’s weird (unless you work with kids), otherwise I’d think it’s cute.

      But I love the books so would be inclined to have a long, intricate discussion with you about the worldbuilding.

    2. Ezri*

      I think that sounds awesome, but how it’s viewed in your office is probably culture-dependent. Some environments would be cool with it, some would absolutely not. I’d gauge by the kind of items other people have in their cubes, and what sort of people regularly stop by your office – clients and executives, or just office mates? Does your office need to portray some sort of professional demeanor, or is it just a workspace you can personalize?

      Of course, I’m typing this from a cube decorated with My Little Ponies, WoW figurines, and dragons, so take that for what you will. :)

        1. Ezri*

          I’m not sure what’s ironic about it, but I’ve actually never seen Star Trek. It’s one of the bigger geek fandoms that I know nothing about… that and Doctor Who.

            1. Creag an Tuire*

              I honestly didn’t know Ezri was a “real” name until I Googled a bit. Now I feel silly.

    3. Jennifer*

      Probably depends on your work, how obvious it is to be seen, and if people have senses of humor.

      For the record, I have certificates from jury duty (that exists, I think it’s hilarious) up with my certificates from training programs and the like. Nobody’s ever noticed. But they are on the far side of my cube and nobody really sees that end of it but me, so.

    5. littlemoose*

      Totally dependent on the culture in your office. It would be totally okay in my workplace, because our work is basically not client-facing. Lots of people have decorations, silly signs, etc in their offices or cubicles. One of my coworkers in an interior office has a piece of paper with the definition of the word “window” framed and hung on the wall. But if you meet with clients or customers in your office, it might be a no-go. Look around and see what other folks have done with their workspaces and maybe that will provide some guidance.

    6. AnotherFed*

      For what it’s worth, in my office it would be more appropriate/fitting to hang up the Hogwarts diploma than the real one. Pretty much everyone has multiple degrees and the culture is fairly low-key about academics, so to hang up your real diploma would be seen as a little bit arrogant. Hanging up joke/fake certificates would be funny (and would be recognized as a joke) – one guy in my office has printed and hung every training certificate from the government-mandated Constitution training, records management training, ethics training, EEO training, occupational safety training, etc. that he’s had to take in the last few years.

    7. blessings of the state, blessings of the masses*

      Years ago when I had an office, I printed up a diploma from Miskatonic U and hung it on the wall next to my other (real) diplomas. It was many years before anyone noticed.

      As has been mentioned, your work culture will determine if this is okay or not. At my work, they didn’t care. Some places might have a problem with it. Natch, don’t ever try to pass it off as real – *that* would be an invitation for trouble.

  92. Marjorie*

    Hi everyone, hopefully someone will see this. 2 questions:
    1.) A recruiter contacted me last Thursday and gave me a phone interview for a job that pays really well that I know I’d be good at. She liked me during the phone interview and said she would connect with the client and see if I could meet with her/them on Monday because I’d be in the area. Monday rolls around and I don’t hear from her. I emailed her and she said she was waiting to connect with the client, but that I could Skype as an alternative. It’s Friday afternoon, still no word from her. Her website implies she’s a retained recruiter. Should I follow up again or move on?

    2.) I am graduating from university in May. I had an interview to be an Exec. Assistant for a PR agency (field I’m hoping to enter). The interview was really casual and brief (15 mins), but he said I was “really nice” at the end and “maybe we’ll have you come back in.” I was just confused by the really brief length. We seemed to get along and I don’t think I said anything wrong. He is the CEO and this is a small company (17 people). Is this normal, or did I unknowingly bomb it?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t have much wisdom to share with you, but my experience with 3rd party recruiters has been pretty disastrous over all. =\ I guess it wouldn’t hurt to follow up one time more.

      1. Marjorie*

        Yeah, I’m thinking I’ll email her one last time on Monday morning, and move on if I receive no word from her.

    2. Sadsack*

      Regarding the recruiter, just move on. You’ve already followed up once. If they are interested in speaking with you, they will contact you. I have had some negative experiences with recruiters myself — just because they made initial contact doesn’t mean anything is going to come of it. Let it be a pleasant surprise if something develops. Good luck!

    3. AnonPi*

      As the previous two have suggested, don’t spend time trying to contact the recruiter. I had a similar experience and it dragged on for over a month before I wiped my hands of it. If there’s a real possibility of hiring you they’ll contact you about it.

      As far as the interview, it could be that it’s just their interviewing style. I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      Some of the best advice from this blog (and the hardest to follow – believe me I know) is to apply for jobs and move on. If you get an interview, great, then do the interview, and move on. It’s easy to dwell on possibilities and what-ifs, and all you’ll do is drive yourself nuts, lol. That time dwelling/worrying/etc can be better spent on redoing your resume, practicing for interviews, applying for more jobs, etc. Good luck and congrats on your upcoming graduation!

    4. AntherHRPro*

      For #1, the ball is in the recruiters court. You already followed up.

      For #2, the reality is you don’t know. I think 15 minutes is rather short, but that just might be his style or he might have been very busy. Like with most interviewing, you are just in the wait and see what happens stage.

      For both, you shouldn’t count on these opportunities. Job searching is frequently a numbers game.

  93. thisisit*

    In light of the post the other day about the offer being rescinded when the candidate tried to negotiate, I’m wondering about circumstances when you don’t negotiate. If there’s been no discussion of salary or benefits until the offer stage (though some knowledge of benefits is known both by industry standard and some info on the website, as well as local law), and the salary offered seemed reasonable, would you still negotiate?

    What if you know the decision is down to you and one other candidate and it’s been very competitive (so much so it’s taken weeks longer than planned to make a decision)? I’m wondering if, while the org unlikely to rescind the offer, it might cause some discontent if you were the chosen applicant and you tried to negotiate (when the 2nd candidate was also strong)?

    I’m in this situation sort of. As in, I’m waiting/hoping for a response soon, and it’s come down to me and one other person. I’m prepping myself on the negotiation bit if I receive an offer. One thing I’m kind of struggling with is that, as far as I can tell, the market value for this position is almost 75% higher than my last salary. So I’d feel weird negotiating for more (which I get is purely psychological).

    Curious on people’s thoughts on this.

    1. Joey*

      See where their number lands. If you think the market for someone like you is different tell them you’re excited about the job, but that the salary is a bit different than what you’ve come up with, ask if its negotiable, propose another number and explain why if they hesitate. But do it over the phone. Do not do it via impersonal email where tone can be unclear or misinterpreted.

      1. thisisit*

        over the phone is a really good point. i should note that the job requires relocating to another country (with relocation covered, though not sure the exact details on the package). i’m really concerned about finding housing, so that could be one area of negotiation if the salary is good.

        1. Joey*

          Don’t be afraid to throw out some examples of the differences in cost of living if they are higher

      2. lawsuited*

        +1 Definitely do it over the phone so that you can convey your enthusiasm about the offer, and also so you can guage the employer’s reaction and adjust or backtrack your negotiations if it isn’t going well and you feel the offer slipping.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      If you really do get 75% more and you’re happy with that (I would be!), then I don’t think there is a problem acknowledging it as a good offer and accepting it without further negotiation. You don’t have to negotiate, especially when you get what you know is a good offer.

      1. thisisit*

        part of the issue is that i was really underpaid at my last job (though benefits were pretty good). this place is in a related field that is known for its good salaries and benefits.

    3. Jennifer*

      I don’t think I’d risk it if they are having such a hard time deciding between equally good candidates, especially if you’re okay with the money. If they REALLY can’t decide and it’s taking them weeks to, any one little thing might make them think “Hey, Candidate B wins because she’s cheaper!”

    4. AntherHRPro*

      I know that I am in the minority, but I don’t believe in negotiating just for the sake of negotiating. If you feel that the entire package is what you were looking for, is competitive and fair, why would you negotiate? Make sure you take into account the cost of living in the area and what similar positions are paid in the industry/job type. If it is lower than you expected in any area, of course negotiate. Health care costs more, negotiate. Less vacation time, negotiate. But if it is what you wanted or even more, I’m not sure what logical reason you have to ask for more.

      1. Molly*

        Personally, I would negotiate at least a little even if I thought the package was fair.

        I’ve found most companies in the private sector give an initial offer that’s got some built-in negotiating room. Since raises are generally calculated on a percentage basis, it only makes sense to start as high as possible.

        Why leave money on the table? If you make more than you need, funnel it into your 401k via contribution percentages. Getting old is not cheap.

      2. periwinkle*

        I’ll join your minority coalition. For my current position I did not negotiate. The pay offered was appropriate for the position and area cost of living, and admittedly at least $10k higher than my experience should have warranted. The benefits package was very good. Heck no I didn’t negotiate! If the offer had been below what I thought was fair, there would have been at least some discussion (said as a long-term AAM reader). In this case I would have been silly to ask for more just because you’re supposed to always ask for more.

  94. Anonymousforthisone*

    I was told this week that I did not get the promotion for which I had applied. This was after a three-month-long saga that left both me and the person who got the job (we are co-workers and friends) with serious questions about the ability of the hiring manager and the company as a whole. It was all handled very poorly.

    My conundrum, though, is this: I now am reporting to the person who was hired for the job for which I was also a finalist. (It was down to the two of us and he was hired instead of me.) We were co-workers (and had been for 8 years), but now he is my direct manager and we both know I applied for the job, too, and we were both finalists.

    Does anyone have experience with this situation? What are the best ways for me to handle this both short-term and long-term? I am doing the best that I can, and coping with a lot of humor, but as things move on, there is a chance that things will get weirder and more awkward.

    Thanks.

    1. Sadsack*

      I’d say just stay professional and friendly. Don’t continue making jokes if you mean jokes about you wishing you had been given his job or that he must be better than you, or anything along those lines. He will probably feel awkward and get tired of hearing it. Just act like you understand that he is now your manager and treat him that way.

      1. Sadsack*

        FWIW, I do not actually have experience with this, but this is how I hope I’d act in this situation!

      2. Anonymousforthisone*

        Thanks. The jokes have not been at his expense, at least not intentionally (he is a very humorous person, too, so I may have gone overboard), but I will stop those just in case he is more sensitive than usual. Thank you so much for the advice.

        1. Sadsack*

          Just to clarify, I meant that I hope you are not being overly self-deprecating in your jokes, because that can tend to wear on people.

          1. Anonymousforthisone*

            No, I don;t think so, but I will lay off the humor for a while, just in case it has an edge that I am not noticing. It is a great suggestion.

    2. cuppa*

      I do. I was friendly, open, and supportive. I never addressed the fact that I was the other finalist for the job. Just be as professional as possible, and treat it like you would any other manager. I found that me taking that first step was all I needed to do to not make it awkward.

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        Well, we knew we had both applied and we knew we were both the finalists. We had chosen to share that information with each other prior to the decision. And that is what I have been doing — treating him like any other manager. I will continue to do that more and more as our time together continues (the decision was just made on Wednesday), and things should work out. Thanks so much!

        1. cuppa*

          Yeah. I think that it will be fine. I’m sure my co-worker knew I was the other finalist too, I just never made a thing out of it once she started. You’ll be ok. It will be fine faster than you think it will be. Good luck!

    3. Libretta*

      This happened to my husband – the one they hired was an outside applicant when he had worked there for 10 years. He was really disappointed, but made an effort to see the new person’s qualifications and simply treat as he would any person in that position. Now he thinks they made the right decision, because the person they hired actually did have different and more appropriate qualifications. My husband was promoted to the same level, in a different position that was more appropriate for him, the next year. He is happier in this position than he would have been in the other (IMO), and now he and the other person can work together well. Try hard to not hold a grudge, it will ruin a friendship and possibly this job. Also, handling it professionally will make you look more appealing for any future promotions.

      Sorry this happened this way!

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        Thanks so much for your example. I am currently encouraging him (he has confessed to me that he is nervous about my response) and I will segue quickly into treating him as I would any other manager. I hope something comes up for me, too, in the company as I would like to move up, as well. (He is also about 10 years younger than me, too, so his doubts and my encouragement come from that, as well as our respective genders.)

  95. ThursdaysGeek*

    Our company just had a leadership conference, and it is broadcast to various locations so the rest of us can view it too. I saw part of a presentation about communication in the workplace by Shari Harley (candidculture dot com) and the little I heard sounded really good. Does anybody know anything more about her?

    1. Dot Warner*

      Yep, I read her blog. It’s definitely worth subscribing to, although not as prolific as AAM (she only updates on Mondays).

  96. New Girl*

    My horrible coworkers like to give disparaging nicknames to people. The coworker in a wheelchair is referred to as “Wheels,” and comments are made about asking him to “roll” over to a meeting (they laugh after this, so it’s not just an innocent thing). One guy, with a hunched back, was referred to as a “roly-poly” (also known as a doodlebug, pill-bug, pill millipede). These people being referred to, who, it should be noted, are also horrible people, don’t seem to mind. I DO!! What do I do? I’m also the new girl, and this is my first job in a military (though civilian) setting, so this might be a culture difference that I’m not going to be able to get used to.

    1. Kara Ayako*

      If they give you a nickname that you don’t like, ask them to stop. If they’re giving names to other people, and those other people seem to like them, I would ignore it altogether. It doesn’t concern you, and the people involved are not offended.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Military can be a little rough around the edges and politically incorrect, but I assure you this would not be tolerated if anyone in leadership knew about it. That stuff gets people in a LOT of trouble. So no, it’s not a cultural difference that’s normal. Bad language, off-color jokes – those are normal. This isn’t.

      Now the question is do you, as the new girl, want to do anything about it? That’s a tricky question especially since you’re new and female and civilian – all things that put you at a bit of a street cred disadvantage working with these people. You could go with a simple “wow! I can’t believe the way you talk about Ed!” or a more serious “guys, I’m really not comfortable with that kind of language” but be ready to accept that they’re probably not going to be as friendly toward you. And really, who cares? You don’t need them to be friendly toward you.

      You could also go to the leadership and report it, but I’d get a sense of the leadership’s receptivity to it. There should also be an EEO office or diversity office or something that you could go to. Any officer worth his or her salt would put a stop to that immediately. What a bunch of assholes.

      Also, if any of them are stupid enough to put that language in email, then you can just forward that along.

    3. Anonsie*

      It sounds like the people getting the nicknames are in on it, so… Nothing. It’s their own little joke in that group I guess.

      And for what it’s worth, my sample size is admittedly small (n=5) but nearly everyone I’ve ever known that uses a wheelchair has enjoyed pushing their jokes about it to the comfort limit of new people whenever possible. The other guys may just be jerks with no boundaries, and they may not be.

    4. AnotherFed*

      This is pretty tame for military call signs, and you’ve mentioned that the coworkers have no problem with the names they’re getting called. I would absolutely not bring this to your boss. If you yourself are being called names you don’t like, practice your most scathing look and a “Really? That’s the most creative thing you could come up with?” and then simply don’t answer to any name you don’t like. If you continue to be called names you don’t like, then bring it to your boss, but unless the names are offensive, understand that it’s likely to be perceived as the equivalent of insisting on being referred to as Mrs. Lastname when everyone else goes by Firstname.

      1. AnotherFed*

        And to clarify, by offensive, I meant sexist, racist, a swear word, or based on some protected category. Many call signs are not based on people’s finest moments or best characteristics, so they tend to be a little on the insulting side, like Porkchop, Bucktooth, Lunchbox, PeeWee, Gurney, etc.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          See, to me, the examples cited ARE based on a protected category. We’re talking about people with medical disabilities. That’s where it makes me squirrely.

        2. blessings of the state, blessings of the masses*

          I can’t speak to the U.S. miltary, but I have been involved with groups – like a motorcycle club – where a nickname (even if it is rude) is taken as a sign of acceptance; it’s a sign that they’re truly a member of the group. From your letter, it sounds like this might be what is happening here. If you personally find the names or conduct offensive, that’s a legitimate gripe but I don’t know what to do about it. I myself found the examples you cited disturbing. But if the people themselves are truly okay with the names, I’d probably not get involved trying to defend people who don’t want to be defended.

  97. Marcy Marketer*

    Freelance question…. I have a full time job and occasionally do freelance content writing jobs for company who have leased the same software that my previous company leased. Over the years I have tried really hard to figure out how to lay boundaries with my clients, especially after one especially horrible experience. However, I am totally failing with this one client, Bob, and I really could use some help.

    Bob purchased a content package that included one draft and one final copy with revisions. That is what it says in the contract. Despite this, I will often go back and forth making small changes until the client is 100% happy with the content and ready to approve the final draft.

    Bob approved the final draft, except for 3 sections he couldn’t make a decision on. I reluctantly agreed to finalize the rest of the sections and release them, with the understanding that he would pay me in full and I would finish the 3 sections when he made the decision. I explicitly outlined the terms and he gave a written agreement via email. One month later, Bob has made a decision that he doesn’t want two of the three sections. Instead, he wants me to redo other sections of the previously approved content. I explained that this is out of scope, and since he finalized those sections any additional drafts on those sections are not included in the package. He is pushing back, hard.

    I’ve already kept myself on this project way longer than I should have, done multiple drafts for free, and even read and edited some additional items not included in the project for free. At this point, I just want the project to be over so I can sever my working relationship with Bob. Can someone give me some help on how to handle my phone conversation with Bob in a way that will put a boundary on the project and allow me to finish the job and go? I don’t need or want his future business, but I also want to be professional.

    1. Anondesigner*

      Always refer back to your contract. It’s a legally binding contract. You did have a contract, right? Super important to have those when you freelance in this situation. I’m sit down on the phone with Bob, have a polite yet firm conversation saying that your project encompassed x, y and z in scope and that you have absorbed numerous revision costs to keep his project moving forward. At this point, I would give him the option to either re-hire your services as a separate project or say you cannot make these changes without a client fee being incurred. Then, privately mark him as “PIA” in your mind and decline any work thereafter.

      If you don’t have a contract in place for freelancing, now’s your chance to create one.

  98. Anondesigner*

    Do you think interviewers are hurting themselves and their candidate when they say, “You are our top choice” during interviewing? As it was, this happened to me, and I got the job because I nailed both interviews and started last week, but it did leave me wondering what an awkward position that would put everyone in if the decision changed.

    1. fposte*

      I would only do it if I knew there were competitive offers. Otherwise I don’t see what it gains me to say.

      On the other hand, they really liked you and they’re pleased to have you, so it all worked out for you!

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Based on what we see here with people reading into every single comment and thinking it means a job offer is definitely forthcoming, I would avoid saying that unless you’re actually hiring that person on the spot. I mean, it’s nice and might be true but the decision can change, and I feel it leads the employee on to an extent.

  99. Sigrid*

    This is not directly work-related, but it is AAM-related, so I’m posting it here: I’m in medical school, after a number of years out of school and in the working world. I recently applied for a position on the board of a student organization I’m involved in. I was not offered that position, but another position for which I had not applied and had no interest in. Although I viewed the manner in which the current board went about the application, interview, and eventually awarding of positions to be something of a bait-and-switch (probably due to inexperience on their part), I sent a very gracious rejection letter (email) based heavily off of Alison’s advice on how to graciously decline an offer. Without having spent the last couple years reading AAM regularly, I probably would have been distinctly less gracious in my declining of the offer, and that would not have stood me in good stead. (I tend towards the blunt and it has taken a lot of AAM reading and practice to learn appropriate levels of working-world tact.)

    So thanks to Alison and all the commenters here who have taught me so much!

  100. katamia*

    I’m planning on leaving my area toward the end of 2015 (between Sept and Nov, depending on my ability to get a job in the places I’m looking and on the start date of said job) and am looking at temp agencies. I’ve never worked with one before, though, so I just wanted to check on the norms before I applied/signed up (what is the verb for a temp agency, exactly?). Is it a bad thing to tell them I’m planning to leave, especially since I don’t know exactly when? Is this something that’s okay to say? I’d rather be open about it if I can just because I’m lazy and it makes things easier when I can just be honest, but I don’t want to hurt my chances of getting work.

    1. Nanc*

      It’s been 20 years since I temped (full disclosure–if temp agencies offered benefits I would have done it for the rest of my life because I loved it!) but here’s a few things off the top of my head:
      1. You’ll probably have to take a skills test on computer software, Word, Excel, etc., so it might be worth reviewing some tutorials. And read the test directions carefully! If the start out Open and Save doc and you don’t the test won’t move forward.
      2. Prepare 2 resumes, 1 skills and 1 chronological. I expect most agencies let you apply on line these days but it will help to have that info to hand.
      3. If you can, agree to take short term jobs. I always worked full time when I temped because I was willing to take the 1 or 2 day assignments–most temps are looking for long term or temp-to-perm. I temped for 2-3 years out of college and had repeat assignments because they liked me! And if you’re going to be moving, you have a better chance of working by taking the short-term jobs.
      4. If you sign up with one of the national agencies, like Kelly Services, your record will follow you if you move to anther area that has a branch of the agency.

      Good luck! As I said, I really enjoyed temping and if you have good skills and do a great job no matter where you’re sent, your account manager will work to get you good assignments.

    2. Alexis*

      I’m currently temping (cause I’m between jobs, sigh). I think the verb is likely “apply” because they don’t have to send you out on any assignments if they don’t think their clients will like you. Generally, you apply, they review your resume, call you and ask what you’re looking for, have you in for an interview. After the interview, you fill out all the tax docs and they explain their policies. This should go without saying, but just in case: you don’t pay them. They essentially become your employer.

      You give them your availability each week and they call you in for last minute assignments (if you don’t mind doing those). They may also call you for assignments with a set time period, project, or temp-to-perm. If you agree to do same/next day work, I don’t think they’ll mind you saying you’re going to leave, though it might make sense not to mention it until you have a date (but that’s just my opinion). You can absolutely say that you’re just interested in short-term work. Oh, and if you work a lot for them for a long period of time you can sometimes get insurance.

  101. CountC*

    Based on what I had read on this website, I negotiated the salary of a job offer and they accepted the full 12.5% increase in my counter offer (and was moved from widget counter II to widget counter III so that my merit increases wouldn’t be capped as quickly)!! I had never negotiated the salary of a job offer before, so it was nerve-wracking, but I am so glad that I did.

    1. CountC*

      Oh and I used the advice here to reject another job offer (both were internal) I had received prior to receiving the one I wanted. Everyone was complimentary and I think it went well!

  102. Zillah*

    I’m job searching. I checked my job-searching-email yesterday morning, at around 11am, but then I had a busy day and didn’t get the chance to check it again before I went to sleep. I woke up today and found an email from a hiring manager that had been sent about ten minutes after I checked my email yesterday asking me to come in for an interview “tomorrow” (aka, today). I immediately emailed her back to say I was sorry I hadn’t gotten it earlier and to ask if she had any availability next week, but I’m a little freaked out that I’ve come across as horribly flaky. :(

    1. MsM*

      If they sent out an interview request with barely 24 hours’ notice and get upset that you couldn’t get back to them in time, then I think you’ve probably dodged a bullet.

      1. Laurel Gray*

        There is something funny as heck reading this on a Friday afternoon as people are putting together their Friday night/weekend plans.

        1. Joey*

          Wow- the parallels with dating never end. Although I’m laughing at the trueness of it when I think of it in that context

    3. cuppa*

      I don’t know. I worked for a Fortune 500 company back in the day and they always wanted to schedule interviews within 24 hours whenever possible (I don’t know why, but that’s what they did). However, I never would have personally held it against someone if they didn’t get that communication. Just be aware that they may want to reschedule for the next day right away again. Good luck.

  103. Can't I just write formulas in Excel all day and not have to talk to anyone?*

    How long did it take before you felt comfortable in the professional world? I don’t mean with your job duties, but with navigating office politics and professional norms and not freaking out over how to phrase an email. I’ve been at my first full-time, out of college professional job for almost 8 months now and I still feel so lost. Its a project based job in a matrixed organization so I report to 3 or more different people depending on what I am working on, none of whom report to the same people unless you go several steps up the food chain which isn’t helping. I’m also pretty good at my job duties so I sometimes feel like my supervisors feel like I know what I’m doing on the interpersonal side of things way more than I do, until I stick my foot in my mouth when they suddenly remember I’m only 22 and don’t have a clue. Any advice? I’m working on faking it til I make it, but some days are harder than others.

    1. JMegan*

      I find it comes and goes, even 15 years into my career.At my current position, both the organization and the work are new to me, so I find I’m a lot more worried than I was at previous jobs where I was more comfortable. Every organization is different, so you may find a bit of a learning curve no matter where you go.

      But to be honest, most people probably won’t even notice what you’re doing, in terms of politics and professional norms. Unless you’re wildly outside the norm on something – like, you’re wearing shorts and flipflops to meetings, and being rude to the CEO – you’re probably doing fine. It’s kind of like having a bad hair day – you might obsess about it constantly, but pretty much nobody else will notice or care. Especially early in your career, where people know you’re new at all of this. Unless you screw up in a spectacular manner – in which case, you will know about it! – it’s usually safe to assume you’re doing just fine.

    2. Alison with one L*

      First, love your handle. That’s basically how I feel in my job, and no one here gets it. Most people I interact with don’t even know that formulas exist in excel.

      Second, though I didn’t face your specific problem, I know many people who have. I am 15 months on the job after graduating from Engineering school.
      It sounds like your manager(s) may not know that you are concerned about this, so I would suggest being open to them about it. Tell them that you’ve identified this as a potential weakness that you’d like to improve and ask for feedback if they see any behaviors that you could/should adjust. Making it a focus of your own personal reflection and their assessments of you should help you make meaningful changes more quickly.

      I’m 23 and I think most people I work with would be shocked that I’m “only” 23. I work pretty hard to maintain a level of professionalism and maturity to support this image of myself as an “established professional” rather than a “recent grad”.

      1. Steve G*

        I don’t think they should talk to their manager, it is too vague of an issue to raise. All it will do is make the manager think “this person isn’t ready to move up” or “I may need to shield them from more things” and I don’t think they will have enough meaningful advice to give back to counterbalance those downsides of this conversation. I would only go to a manager with specific questions like “I keep getting requests for xyz type spreadsheets but I don’t get what they are used for.”

        I think understanding how business works in general will give you a leg up in any conversations you have. If you know exactly what the guys in Accounting, Finance, Sales, (business) Law, and Operations are actually doing everyday because you learn GAAP, accounting acronyms and processes, etc., you will be more confident in dealing with them and can speak their language when talking with them. I think the “XXXX for Dummies” books are good for learning a bunch of stuff quickly…..

        Also, I wouldn’t try to “fake it til I make it.” People can tell you’re young, and acting like you know more than you do will never help, because so many people are going to remember feeling like they knew nothing at 22. Some older people think 35 is really young and give you speeches on random stuff, it doesn’t stop at 24. It’s fine to say “I don’t know how that fits into the bigger picture,” or “I don’t know what that acronym means,” or “I’ve heard that term before but I’m not really sure what it means/how it plays out,” etc. Knowing how to listen, and say “I don’t know or “ill look that up” will make you look much more mature than acting like you are on top of everything.

    3. C Average*

      It took me until I found this site. Seriously. Office politics and professional norms are byzantine, and no one explains them to others–you just get slapped on the wrist (or worse) if you unknowingly violate them. I’ve learned almost everything I know about the subject by reading the comments here. It’s helped me enough that now people ask ME for help navigating the company matrix where I work. Because I understand so much more about this stuff now.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto from me.
        OP, just make it your habit to read here often. Try to read the comments when you have time. Call it professional development or call it an investment in you.
        I think getting experience under your belt helps. I have noticed that I feel differently with each decade. My 30s were better than my 20s. My 40s were terrific compared to my 30s. And so on.
        I can honestly say, I have learned more here than my jobs and my schooling combined.
        The one thing I know is that everyone has their own version of what you are saying here. The thing is that when we know there are gaps that we need to close, that solves half the problem right there. Lots of people don’t even realize that they don’t know. We talk about those people a lot here. And we talk about what we don’t know a lot, also.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I think you work for me. . .

      Not really because my new grad employee only works for people who report to the same person. We’re a project-based org/matrix org, too, and my first job was also that way. My best advice is to keep each of the people you’re working for well-informed, and to let your functional supervisor know immediately if anything starts getting sideways with any of the others you’re working for. Don’t worry about sticking your foot in your mouth (don’t say anything mean about anyone, but don’t worry about asking a dumb technical question). We might shake our heads at you and think you should have known the answer to that question or you should have looked it up, but it is MUCH worse to not know 5 years from now than to look silly asking now. We try not to treat you like you are 22, but we do know that you are.

  104. JMegan*

    Just a bit of a rant: I had a request from a grad student at the beginning of March, looking for some data she can use for a research project. No problem, we can do that. So on March 3, I let her know that we could have the data for her by the end of the month. She responded the same day, “Is there any way I can get it sooner?” I politely told her that I would get it to her as fast as I could, but it would most likely be the end of the month.

    Since then, she has checked in THREE TIMES to make sure we’re still on track for the end of the month – I have replied each time, but my responses are getting both slower and less polite with each request. Last time she emailed me, I responded on Wednesday that I had the documents on my desk, so I needed to look them over and could have them to her by end of day Friday. She wrote back “I can swing by your office to pick them up on Thursday if you want.”

    Lady, you’re not making me work any faster here. I told you the end of the month, it will be the end of the month, and you’re not my boss, so quit bugging me about it.

    Protip: The squeaky wheel does not always get the grease. Sometimes the squeaky wheel just annoys the sh*t out of the wagon driver, who then drives the wagon as slowly as she possibly can!

    1. JMegan*

      *Grad student is external to my organization, which is a health care provider and not an academic institution.

      1. fposte*

        Is this an expectation in your org or a favor? Do you have any regular contact with her unit? I might in passing mention to her advisor that her communication skills were a little below par here.

        1. Anonsie*

          I wouldn’t. As someone who’s also for a health care provider and regularly has to get project info for grad (and sometimes undergrad) students… This is really really par for the course, unfortunately.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, the passive aggressive “if you want” would set my teeth particularly on edge. Mind you, I’d have considered passive-aggressively resending her previous “not till the end of the month” emails with a “I think maybe you missed this” note.

      1. JMegan*

        Oh, no kidding. I actually responded with my entire meeting schedule for the rest of the week, and repeated “Friday will be the earliest I can get them to you.” Which was probably less professional than my replies earlier in the month, but honestly. There has been radio silence since then, so hopefully she finally got the message!

    3. Katie the Fed*

      She’s just nervous you’ll forget.

      I’d just tell her “I can’t work faster than the timeline I already stated. If you need data more quickly than that you’ll probably need to reach out to someone else.”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yep — that’s my answer in situations like this. No need to defend yourself or continue accommodating rudeness like this (and it IS rude; she’s asking you for a favor and then making a pain of herself), just let her know that this is when it will happen by and if that’s not good enough, you can’t help her.

    5. Jennifer*

      In academia, the squeaky wheel gets what she wants if she annoys people enough. Or calls higher up the food chain, which I guess isn’t an option here.

      1. fposte*

        I think it’d get her an oilcan in the teeth at my university.

        Agreed that she’s nervous it’ll fall off JMegan’s radar, and that that’s a real risk when you’re doing something like this. However, it sounds like she’s missed the fulsome thanks that you should offer somebody for being willing to turn stuff around in a short time frame. The tighter the time frame, the nicer you need to be to people doing stuff for you.

    7. Steve G*

      As an outsider I’m not seeing the student as being outlandish. You are annoyed because YOU know you will get the data done, but SHE doesn’t know that. I think the annoying emails are her way of saying “this data is really important to me I really hope you get it to me or I am screwed!” It’s also an example of why email isn’t always a great way to communicate….

      1. TL -*

        It is outlandish, though, because you should assume that professionals are competent and good at their jobs – especially when asking for favors – until shown evidence otherwise.

        I get why she’s asking like this – professors are notorious for forgetting/getting behind on things – and it could also be that she has an anxious type of personality that is highly encouraged because it makes for a very careful, detail-focused worker.

        But asking someone for a favor and then consistently annoying them about it is not a good way to ensure a continuing relationship with them.

    8. Sabrina*

      I’m willing to bet that her project is due the first week of April and she waited too long to ask for the data.

      1. Anonsie*

        Here’s what happens to me: student wants to get this side project done over a break (between semesters, spring break, some time during the summer) and is directed by someone else to contact us during that break, and the poor student has no idea that there is no way for that to actually work out from our end.

    9. Anonsie*

      Consider that she may be driven by a faculty member at your/her institution on this one, too. A lot of the time when I get a student coming in that’s really really prodding me or can’t seem to accept the timeframes I give them, it’s because they were promised a better one by someone above me and that person is telling them that surely it can be done! Just talk to Anonsie! Talk to her more! It would be important to give that faculty member the reality of your timelines so they don’t make promises to students that can’t be fulfilled.

      1. TL -*

        Ideally, though, the student would be communicating that – “Oh, my professor was assuming that we’d have the data by mid-March and we planned around that, (maybe based on so-and-so’s communications.) If there’s any way you can make it faster, I’d really appreciate it, but if not, I’ll talk to my prof and we’ll figure out a new plan. Thanks!”

        And then cc the pertinent people if necessary. It’s not within the student’s authority to make this happen any faster, so if she was promised a better timeline, she needs to make that someone else’s problem; someone who either has the authority to tell her higher ups it’s not happening or tell the favor-granter to make it a higher priority. Probably the former rather than the latter, though.

  105. Dustbunny*

    Ugh. I was due to get a promotion next month, in recognition of work I’m already doing, but at the eleventh hour they’ve announced an organisational hiring freeze which means it can’t happen. (In order to promote me, they had to first make me redundant and then rehire me in a new role, which is why it can’t happen in a hiring freeze. Is this common practice?)

    This is the second time my manager has tried to promote me and not been able to do it because of things unrelated to me. I’ve now been in this job three years and there’s no chance of development. My job title and salary don’t really reflect the work I’m doing any more, so I think I ought to move on, but… I like my job! I like my team! I’m struggling to find any roles to apply to that are anywhere near as appealing as the promotion I was going to get, which I know is an unrealistic standard.

    Anyone have any advice on moving on when you enjoy your current role?

    1. Xarcady*

      So there’s a hiring freeze right now. Why can’t they promote you after the hiring freeze ends? That’s the discussion I’d be having with my manager.

      Also, no, I do not think it is normal to have to fire someone and then rehire them in a different position in order to give them a promotion. But that’s in the US, and I suspect you are in a different country?

      1. Dustbunny*

        Good spot. I’m in the UK- but I suspect it isn’t normal practice here either!

        My manager is not optimistic about the hiring freeze coming to an end any time soon, and certainly not about budget freeing up for promotions/ new roles. Based on our conversations, it will be at least a year and maybe two before that’s an option again. (He actually sounds pretty dispirited, and I’m also worried that he’ll be looking for a new role soon).

        There’s also the fact that a promotion hasn’t happened twice now and I don’t have faith in it happening next time around either.

    2. Apollo Warbuks*

      Would your boss be open to a new job title and updating your job description it will set you up nicely for getting a raise when the hiring freeze comes to an end, or will make you more marketable if you look to leave.

      I’m in the UK and have never heard of people needing to be made redundant and rehired, I’ve seen reorganisations where people are put on notice they might be made redundant and asked to reaply for a job under the new structure.

      Handling redundancy correctly is a legal nightmare and needs very specialist HR involvement so it’s not something firms do lightly, so I’d take that explanation with a pinch of salt my best guess is there’s no money to pay you more or your boss is worried about backfilling your role if you’re promoted.

  106. AnonAnonAnon*

    I’m really worried that I may not be living up to my new manager’s high expectations of me.

    I’ve been with the company for a while, and my manager hired me into a new role/field based on my skills in an adjacent field. This is a step both up and sideways for me – up in hierarchy, sideways in scope of work.

    She’s really happy with a lot of my work, but I feel like there are some areas where I’m just not reaching the high bar she (rightfully) sets. I think part of it is just that I’ve never done this kind of work before, and part of it is that this is a more buttoned-up department than my last one was (in a good way!).

    I’m a person who needs to learn by doing, but some of our work is very spread out. For instance, there’s a report we do twice a year, and though I’ve been in this role for a year now, I feel like my output on this report has improved only a tiny bit over the first time I did it. If I had to do this report every month, I’m sure I’d have it all down by now from exposure and repetition, because that’s how I learn this stuff. But only doing it twice a year, I feel like I’m not able to retain what I should to carry it over to the next cycle.

    I’m also worried that she expects me to be acting far more autonomously by now. But I still have to ask her to make certain judgment calls throughout the week, because I don’t yet feel confident that my instincts would match hers.

    Aaaand finally, because I’m so wigged out by these things, I tend to make little mistakes that she always catches, like covering agenda items out of order when I run a meeting or not having the right info at hand when talking to her.

    She’s a great boss, and I’d really like to impress her with some improvement. Any suggestions on how I can up my game, fast? September reviews are right around the corner!

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’ve had this problem– it’s the worst when you think your gut is in line with your manager, but then– nope!
      I started being a lot more proactive just in coordinating tasks, like ‘I will send Project X to Dr. Bubbles for approval,’ or ‘Mojo Jojo asked about Project Y, can I tell him Z?’
      That way, I’m still getting her approval, but she can also see that I’m proactive and know what I’m doing.

      1. little Cindy Lou who*

        This. So much this. I clue my manager into how I’m thinking about X or what I think are possible solutions for Y. That way if I’m way off base we can talk about it, but otherwise boss can just email back “yes” or “go with option 1” and I gain confidence in my gut and boss gains confidence in letting me handle the things I have down pat.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Re: learning by doing – are you ABLE to do that report every month (even if you don’t have to)? Would your schedule allow for it? If so, I would practice doing it each time (if that makes sense given the details of the report). That’s what I used to do with a certain part of my job that I wasn’t comfortable with and it didn’t come up often enough to GET comfortable with it.

      As far as asking questions/making judgement calls: I had this situation in the past, too and how I handled it was by asking my manager directly – “Do you want me to come to you with these types of questions or would you prefer I handle it on my own?” Her answer there will give you guidance. Maybe she trusts your decision making and instincts. But I think part of it is that in order to develop instincts, you have to start making those judgement calls. Sometimes they won’t be the best call, but you’ll learn for them. Obviously, if you’re not confident on something that has a huge impact, I’d involve her… or if she expresses doubt in your ability to make these judgement calls… but otherwise, I’d just start.

    3. Jaune Desprez*

      For important but intermittent tasks, I save a password-protected document on my desktop called HOW TO DO EVERYTHING. That’s where I keep detailed notes on everything from how to change my voicemail to how to run the quarterly XYZ report and install the annual update for a key program. It’s also where I keep my ever-lengthening list of work-related passwords (which is why the whole document is password-protected).

      When I’m ready to move on from a job, the HOW TO DO EVERYTHING file forms the backbone of the manual I create for my successor.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, you have lots here.
      1) High bar. Find out from her how long the learning curve takes. Tell her you are interested in beefing up what you are doing but you’re not sure where to start. If she is a good boss, she will be happy to talk about this. Ask her now, not in September.
      2) I hate those once a year things. Make yourself a copy of the report- put notes all over it. The parts you don’t understand put question marks on. This is nothing anyone else will see, it is just you talking it through to yourself. The parts of the report you got through by the skin on your teeth, make step-by-step notes as to how you did it. Go through the report once, just to get an over view. Put question marks or circles around the parts you don’t understand. Write reminders for the parts you know you will need reminding. If you have time go back over a second time and see if you can fill in some of your question marks or circles. If you do not have time put the report away in a file called “examples” or something similar, so you can find it next year.
      3) Each time you ask her about a judgement call ask her what criteria she advises you use so you can start doing it on your own. Oooorrr, instead of asking her opinion, form your own idea and then go to her and say, “I have situation X. I am not sure if I should do A or B, but I am leaning towards B and here is why ____.” Try to figure out what she will tell you and then ask her if your rationale is correct.
      4) Practice leading a meeting at home in front of your mirror. Practice the lead ins to each topic, practice going back to your agenda and saying “okay, next item is ___.” When you are leading the meeting check off each topic as it is completed. Hold a pen in your hand for the entire meeting to help remind you to stay on track.
      5) As you do more of these types of things your “wig out level” will drop and you will make less mistakes. Until it does drop, look at everything twice. Do it and review it.

  107. Ali*

    I am kind of late today (was eating lunch and catching up with an old friend from college), but I have some good news: I have a job interview on Tuesday! At first, I was worried I wasn’t going to have the interview because the HR person wasn’t sure if she could schedule me during one of my days off. (I don’t have typical Monday-Friday hours.) But she found a spot for me! It’s at an insurance company, so given the kind of work I do now and have thought about, it’s hardly dream job material. It’s a support function for one of their departments, doing things like screening mail and phone calls, writing correspondence and helping with policy stuff. But I applied because it sounded like it matched well with my skills and the hours there would be Monday-Friday. If I got the job, it would definitely help with recovering from burnout and giving me something of a personal life again.

    I’m also considering starting up a writing website and learning how to pitch clients for freelancing. I’m not sure if I’d ever want to be a full-time freelancer, but I have thought about doing something like this for a while and have always been kind of too scared to plunge. Plus, my job up until I got my PIP was pretty stable and I thought it would’ve been foolish to give it up to freelance. But slowly, I am starting to have less fear of change and trying new things.

    Fingers crossed!

    1. C Average*

      That’s awesome! Good luck with the interview.

      It’s great that you’re thinking about pitching some freelance ideas. It’s really empowering to know you have ideas, a market exists for ideas like yours, and it’s just a matter of finding the right audience.

      Since giving notice at my full-time job, I’ve pitched a few freelance projects to various sites that I frequent and have already sold a piece and have another two in the pipeline.

      Pitching is kind of like asking someone out on a date. You want to be a better version of yourself and make sure you’re proposing something that sounds appealing to the other party. And if they say no, you’ve got to shake it off and try again with someone else or with a different idea. The worst they can do is say no.

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      Best wishes to you Ali, for both the interview and trying new things.

      You are long overdue for some good life sprinkles.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh my, right on about the good life sprinkles!
        You need a break, Ali, and hopefully this is it! Good luck!

  108. Just Anony*

    Long story short, my company is getting some sort of filming crew coming in a few weeks from now. They will be filming the work day, interviewing employees and customers, etc. – No it’s not Undercover Boss! –

    Anyway I’m not too keen on the whole situation. I’m not overly thrilled here, and I’m not even remotely thrilled at the idea of being interviewed or filmed. I’ve mentioned things here before under a different name and have been told by other commenters to leave this job.

    From the way it sounds, the owner is making sure everyone is working that day (part-timers don’t work every day). I haven’t heard anything about missing those days. I also have not seen any waivers to sign for being filmed.

    I really don’t want to participate. I just want to do my job and collect a paycheck. I didn’t sign up to be filmed for a contest. Anything I can do without losing my job over it?

    1. JMegan*

      I guess it would depend on your boss, on both how important this film shoot is to him, and on how reasonable a person he is generally. If it’s super important, and he’s not the type to take no for an answer, it might be easier to just suck it up. But if the film shoot is low value (to him), and he’s likely to understand if you say you don’t want to participate, then you’d have a better chance of opting out without damaging your career or reputation.

      But I’m assuming if you’re writing in, it’s more on the important/unreasonable side of the equation. In which case, I don’t know. Can you talk to the film producer directly, and ask not to be filmed? They should be pretty accommodating of something like that – after all, it’s in their best interests that the people they’re filming are willing participants. Good luck!

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Seconding this– the producer probably will have a sort of waiver that you will need to sign, eventually. You should be able to ask to be left out.

      2. Just Anony*

        It’s for a contest. The company owner isn’t much into giving details. From what I understand the company gets more PR and rumor has it the owner wins a trip to Vegas. I’ve heard nothing for the rest of the employees.

        Going to work and being left out of filming is impossible due to the work environment. I would have to physically stay home or at least away from work.

        1. TL -*

          You’d be surprised at what cameramen/directors/producers can do, in terms of keeping people out of the shot. Don’t think it’s impossible until you’ve had a chance to talk to them.

          At the very least, they may be able to keep you so far in the background that nobody ever looks at you unless you tell them to.

    2. Nanc*

      Ugh! You’re getting filmed and your boss gets a prize . . . How about a bad bout of allergies that day? You can still come in to work but you’re sneezing and coughing and asking everyone to repeat themselves because you can’t hear with plugged up ears because of, you know, allergies. Hopefully they’ll edit you out.

    3. Ima Mgr*

      Hopefully the producer will have a waiver for people to sign ,and you can explain you need to opt out. Your boss should realize there can be valid reasons for someone not to be filmed.

      I once had an employee who had a restraining order against someone in her life, and regularly had to scrub Google results on herself to avoid this person finding any identifying information about her. So now I always make sure to be hyper-aware of any photography or other identifying information about our employees that might be released to the public, and ensure everyone has to actually opt-in, to avoid creating an unfortunate circumstance that could have been easily avoided.

    4. Dynamic Beige*

      Is it really for a contest? or is it some sort of promotional video they’re making for the company? Do you have a manager who is not Boss that you can speak to about not wanting to be filmed? Unfortunately, this may become one of those “not a team player” things.

      If you can arrange to not be wherever you usually work when the camera crew is there (bathroom break? lunch? other errand?) or keep your head turned from the camera/be looking at what you’re doing instead of the camera, that may help. Otherwise, if Boss insists on everyone’s participation, it would be a shame if you came down with stomach flu the day of the shoot. Honestly, this kind of stuff, like birthday celebrations or company softball games or a whole host of other stuff should be optional. Unless you are some key player within the organisation, there shouldn’t be any reason you need to be on camera, except as background (way in the background).

      1. JustAnony*

        Yes, it is a contest. I researched it online, and there is mention of past winners in my search. A quick youtube search can highlight the past winners and finalists.

        Yes, I do have a manager that is not an owner, but I don’t think she would have an answer for me without asking the owner first.

        I am one of a handful of people with the same job title, job description, job duties. While my job is an obvious component of this industry, being that there are others with the same job title, I am not the sole key player here with my title.

        I’d rather be participating in a company softball game…

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          If you are one of a handful, then there are other people who could answer whatever the film crew’s questions are for the contest and your participation is not 100% necessary. However, you may have to come up with a very compelling reason to tell your manager for not wanting to be filmed if she won’t be swayed that someone else should do it and you can’t claim you’re Reformed Amish ;) Maybe someone else on the team is more photogenic and you could volunteer to help coach them on whatever they should be saying that this film crew might want to hear? Participation without being on camera. If Boss really wants to win this, it’s better that everyone focus on coaching people who want to participate on what to say/how to act than dragging in everyone.

          Perhaps you can work out something along the lines of you get tongue tied when you know you’re being recorded, that you have a phobia of public speaking and you know that if you have to speak on camera, it will be deer in the headlights time and you’ll tank it. Or you could try to take a more honest approach that you have recently been feeling like you’re going through a life crisis that is colouring all your feelings and perceptions. That given your current state of mind, you don’t feel that you could be honest enough or enthusiastic enough or energetic enough (whatever the contest requires) to bring it home for the win that Boss is hoping for. It’s been a long, extremely cold winter where I am and a lot of people are feeling meh about stuff in general because of it.

          Is this going to be on TV? It’s possible that the waivers will come the day of shooting, so that may be a way you can get out of it.

  109. Liane*

    This is “semi-pro.” As some of you know, I’m the Lead Moderator (volunteer) for a small game company’s forums. They are launching a site for gaming articles, with some pay for writers. The Managing Editor, a published SF author, is a friend. He is taking me on as Copy Editor! Thanks mainly to the recommendation of another friend, who has used me as editor/proofreader of his role-playing game projects. I will also be doing some writing.
    This is so cool–and so much better than the Day Job I cannot quit.

    If Elizabeth West, or some of the other writers, here have any advice, I’d love to have it.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Sadly, I’m quite inexperienced at this sort of thing, as I’ve only had one content job. I know there are many other quite accomplished and better writers than me who comment here. I’m sure they’d be able to give you some really useful advice. In fact, I think there are some editors here as well.

      Sorry I can’t be of more help. :( I’m a one-trick pony who performs in front of empty bleachers.

    3. Liane*

      @ Kimberlee, Esq: It will launch April 1. :) I will double-check the link & post in the Fun open thread later in the weekend. The link I currently have is for submitting & working with content.

      @Elizabeth: Love your version of the One-Trick Pony. I’m sure Managing Editor will also have some guides for me on the editing end, once he’s ready to set me up. And when I started working with Game Dev Friend’s projects, we agreed to be fairly professional about those, partly because I did want to do some paid freelancing in the field.

      For now I am

  110. Labyrinthine*

    I just need to say that after a few weeks of complaining, I have had a really very wonderful week at work. Once again, I am challenged, rewarded, supported and left to do my thing. Just a little work brag :)

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      That’s been my last two weeks as well. After months of down right hatred, I’ve had two great weeks. Really great. Of course, now is when the job interviews start rolling in. Oh well. Happy and job prospects. Can’t complain too much.

  111. JBean*

    My boss just “retired” due to lack of work and I (along with what is left of my division) am actively looking for a new job. Should I mention the lack of work when interviewing and that my boss was likely forced to retire?

    1. cuppa*

      I would mention the lack of work, but not necessarily that your boss was forced to retire.

      1. Tom*

        Agreed. Anything going on with your boss is probably irrelevant and maybe confidential, too… but the lack of work is definitely relevant, and would seem to me like a reason for leaving your job that potential employers will react well to. I use a “looking for new challenges” line all the time when interviewing.

  112. smoney*

    Is it sexist to require different uniforms for men and women? My work wants us to wear new uniforms, wherein the men are wearing long sleeved shirts and pants, and the women get a corset top and a miniskirt, without a pants option.

    2. Tom*

      Probably? As a guy, it probably wouldn’t bother me, but I could see where women would be uncomfortable with this new requirement. What do women you are working with think?

      1. smoney*

        The large majority of women are unhappy with it. The last time they rolled out new uniforms, (same for the men, a cocktail dress for the women), we had two women refuse to wear it and quit. We have women over 60 years old, and they want to make them wear a corset. They already forced us to wear high heeled gogo boots.

        1. Tom*

          Does your employer generally want to keep employees engaged and happy to be working there? Maybe they aren’t aware of how poorly these new uniforms are received.

          Seems like this is borderline (or maybe not even borderline) discriminatory employment procedures, although not sure if it would be worth pursuing in any “official” way… aside from looking for somewhere else to work!

          Maybe you could come up with a medical need to wear pants!

        2. Alison with one L*

          I’m so curious about this, where do you work? I have to assume it’s a restaurant?

          1. smoney*

            I am a blackjack dealer at a casino in Las Vegas. I work for an agency that mostly provides party pit dealers, (party pits are where it’s usually all young, female, scantily clad dealers, and gogo dancers – it serves its own purpose, and the dealers usually make better tips) to casinos around town. With my particular pit, they were specific in hiring, in that this was NOT a party pit, and that it is not about appearances, rather personality. Thus, we have people from all walks of life, including women over 60 years old.

            We started wearing black and whites (a standard dealer uniform, white long sleeve button down shirt and black dress pants. Then they brought in the first uniform, a vest for the men to go over their black and whites, and a cocktail dress for the women (we also had to buy specific gogo boots). Both the dresses and the vests were poorly made, buttons falling off, zippers sticking, etc., and the majority of the female dealers are back in black and whites since our dresses basically fell apart. They sent an email yesterday that EVERYONE is to wear black and whites starting today, but two of my female coworkers were given the new uniform to try on. Now they are rolling out the new uniform (since so many of us complained about the dress), which is a miniskirt and a corset for the women. It hasn’t happened yet, but I don’t want to wear a corset and skirt.

            Outside of the fact that it’s often cold in the casino because they overcompensate on the air conditioning (many women have already complained, since we can’t wear a jacket or sleeves or anything), but I have been a party pit dealer before, and you get treated with much less respect based on what you wear.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Yes, it’s sexist.

        Whether it’s illegal might depend on the nature of your employer (in the US). If the men’s uniform isn’t sexy at all but the women’s one is, that’s definitely going to raise some eyebrows. I’d follow Alison’s advice here:

        http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2013/02/20/how-to-assert-your-legal-rights-at-work

        Saying something along the lines of: “Of course you’re allowed to have a different dress code for men and women. However, having SUCH a sexy uniform for women, but not men, might put us in violation of federal law,” etc. might be the best first step. Then, either decide if you want to resign, consult a lawyer, or your state department of labor.

        1. smoney*

          I am not at all confident having any sort of discussion with my casino (where the uniforms are coming from), since I work for an agency. If I were to bring something up, I’m not at all confident that they wouldn’t just tell my agency not to place me there anymore, since they have no repercussions if they do. I’m pretty sure the only recourse I have is to get a different job.

        2. Graciosa*

          I’m not sure the uniforms are actually a (legal) problem if they are classified as entertainment costumes.

          However, even assuming that there was a requirement for equal levels of sexiness (which I don’t think there is), your approach rather lends itself to having the employer respond with, “Gosh, you’re right! We’ll take a look at the uniforms for men and redesign them to be much sexier. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.”

          I don’t think that’s really the outcome that the Smoney is looking for.

          1. smoney*

            I don’t think they are classified as costumes, they are our uniforms. Every other dealer in the casino wears a uniform as well (button down shirts of various colors with black pants).

            Actually there is a requirement for equal levels of sexy!

            ‘An employer who requires employees to wear uniforms which are different for males and females is not engaging in discriminatory practices as long as the uniforms for both males and females are “suitable.” For example, women cannot be forced to wear short shirts or sexually revealing uniforms if men are not required to do so.’ (http://www.workplacefairness.org/sexual-gender-discrimination#12)

            And our guys aren’t exactly party pit material either..

            1. Graciosa*

              The reason I referenced entertainment costumes is that sex / gender discrimination is actually legal where the sex / gender / appearance is considered a BFOQ, which is frequently the case in the entertainment industry (and explains why Hooters is still in business).

              If the employer makes the case that these costumes are part of its business plan – and the trend you mentioned toward becoming more of a “party” service seems to support that – then the different costumes / uniforms may well be legal. Not tasteful, appropriate, or respectful to long time employees, but legal.

              Courts have upheld different grooming standards for the sexes, including requiring women to wear makeup, specific nail polish and lip color, etc. when men were not required to do so (or required not to do so) even in the absence of a BFOQ argument. Given the party trend, BFOQ seems to be the way your company is headed.

              I wish this were not the case, but I suspect that you’re correct that your best option may be finding a better employer.

          2. smoney*

            They are uniforms, not costumes. Every other dealer in the casino wears a uniform, a variation on the black and whites, with purple shirts instead of white.

            And there is a requirement for equal levels of sexy!

            An employer who requires employees to wear uniforms which are different for males and females is not engaging in discriminatory practices as long as the uniforms for both males and females are “suitable.” For example, women cannot be forced to wear short shirts or sexually revealing uniforms if men are not required to do so. – http://www.workplacefairness.org/sexual-gender-discrimination#12

            And the men aren’t exactly party pit material either..

    5. gloria*

      My least favorite thing about middle school was being forced to wear a skirt (which I quite like to do when it’s my own decision), and my kneejerk UGH reaction hasn’t softened in adulthood! I do think it’s sexist, especially since a corset top and miniskirt are items that are generally associated not just with professionalism but with boosting attractiveness.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Me too! Then, when I was about 13, our school got its first Muslim student, and suddenly all girls were allowed to wear trousers, as long as they were navy blue. Hooray for diversity!

    6. INTP*

      On a legal level, maybe or maybe not. Employers can have different dress codes for men versus women. They are not supposed to be so different that the dress code places a greater burden on one gender than the other but it is not always easily proven that they do. It’s difficult to quantify the psychological burden of wearing a corset and miniskirt for a court, though we all know that it creates attention and situations that are far different from what men wearing pants and shirts deal with.

      On a moral level, it is absolutely sexist and should not be required.

    7. AnotherAlison*

      It seems like they would want to give women the option for the corsets or the black & whites, even for their own sexist reasons. Not all women can pull off a corset look, even if they’re 25, never mind the 60 year old. Why would the casino want 60 year old ladies in corsets, other than the party pits that you described?

      (I’m assuming there could be some women who prefer corsets. Some women don’t like a unisex look, whether it’s just a preference or they think it helps with tips. . .)

      1. smoney*

        The problem is that they AREN’T giving the option to wear the black and whites. NONE of the women want to wear the corset. In black and whites, you can wear a black skirt in lieu of pants, to make it more feminine, if needed. We’ve said over and over they should just let us wear what the men wear, black and whites with a vest, but they continue to roll out progressively skimpier outfits.

        It seems like they are trying to make us into a party pit without having to deal with the issues that brings – usually not the best/most professional dealers (10-15 early and mid-20 something women, willing to wear lingerie to work).

        2. Alma*

          You mentioned you worked for an agency. Could the agency address the uniforms as being unsuitable so individual employees do not have to do so?

          I can see the corset and short skirt “uniform” revealing much more than the casino intended. Tatoos, stretch marks, scarring, ummm lack of muscle tone and flappy arms.

          And yes, it is sexist.

    8. Apollo Warbuks*

      That sounds pretty sexiest to me. Dressing the ladies up like you describe but the guys getting to wear something more conservative isn’t OK.

        1. fposte*

          I think WT was suggesting to leak this to the Gawker news blog.

          However, I’m cynically inclined to think that “Vegas casino dresses staff in sexist costumes” doesn’t even rise to the “dog bites man” level of novelty.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            Eh, there’s a spin, I think. And I rethought, Jezebel is probably better.

            The spin is the women older than I am (GOOD GOD THAT’S OLD) having formerly been able to wear tasteful clothing, now forced into go go boots, a corset and a mini skirt in order to keep their way of earning a living.

            Didn’t we go through this with “stewardesses” in 1972 or something? I was alive. I remember. Just not the year.

            1. smoney*

              I do think there would be a story there, but I’m pretty sure if it became a PR fiasco, they’d just cut their losses and drop all of us.

            2. smoney*

              And some of the women have been there for over a decade. They brought the agency and moved/laid off all the swing shift dealers. The ones who could pass the auditions kept their job and their shift (swing is obviously the best shift for this market), but have to comply with the new rules they are enforcing.

              Every day in the dressing rooms they say, well, we don’t like it, but what can we do?

              1. Not So NewReader*

                If they put me in a mini-skirt and corset they would lose money. People would leave and never come back. And I am not even 60 yet. I cannot see how this is going to work well for them. (Wait. I haven’t even covered what would happen if I wore boots with heels….)

                I don’t know – is there an OSHA case here? No one is allowed to dress warmly and the place is freezing cold? I left a job in part because it was 45 degrees and we were not supposed to wear sweaters. After all, what would the customers think????

            3. Alma*

              There was an airline that had the slogan “Fly Me” – and it was the day of hot pants, tight vests, tacky tacky tacky.

        3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Sorry. Yes, I meant Gawker dot com. Hamilton Nolan, hamilton @ gawker dot com , might be interested although Jezebel may be better Jezebel dot com.

          (I’m more Gawker than Jezebel myself, Jezebel depresses me.)

  113. LizB*

    This is more of a vent than an actual question, but WHY do some people in my workplace not read emails?! I’m working on a project that requires me to communicate to the whole staff, and by far the most efficient way to do that is via email — if I tried to do phone calls or face-to-face meetings it would take days to get to everyone. I try not to send more than one email a week (and usually one every two weeks), and my emails always look like this:

    ACTION ITEM: Submit teapot design proposal to LizB. DUE: Friday, March 27th.
    Hi everyone,
    I need your teapot proposals by Friday! The purpose of this proposal is to give the board an idea of their options for next year’s product line. Proposals should include specifications for color, spout angle, and lid thickness. I’ve attached several of last year’s proposals as examples, as well as a blank template you can fill out. Let me know if you have any questions!
    — LizB (555-5555 ext. 55)

    I think that’s pretty clear, and most of my co-workers do just fine, but I’m still finding I need to chase a few people down after the due date, and when I find them they go “Proposal? What proposal? Can I get it to you in two weeks?” and then send me something in the wrong format without any of the specifications I need. I get that they’re busy, but it’s still annoying to have my messages just straight-up ignored. Is there something I can do better? Or should I just resign myself to always following up in person with these people?

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Um, your email format is amazing and I’d love to work with you. Do you send a followup closer to the due date?What are the consequences if those people just never submit the “proposal?”

      If at all possible, I’d just push the responsibility for following through back on them – “Well I never heard back from you so I moved forward without your input.”

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, I agree with ArtsNerd’s suggestion. Don’t chase them. Let them realize that their proposal was not included and then they can explain why they didn’t respond to your request. If your email has this, maybe you could put a reminder flag on your emails that remind the receivers that they need to respond by a certain date/time.

      2. ArtsNerd*

        Or, if you can’t move forward without their work: “I’m sorry but this needs to be in formatted like the attached example. Please re-submit according to the instructions.”

    2. Cath in Canada*

      Could you send it as an Outlook item instead of an email, so the deadline shows up in their calendar? I do that with some people who I know prefer that system.

      2. hermit crab*

        On a related note, I recently discovered that you can attach reminders to regular emails in Outlook! For example, if you send an email asking for the progress reports by Friday, you can set it so that all the recipients get a calendar reminder on Wednesday — while, meanwhile, the email stays in their inbox instead of being auto-deleted like when you receive a meeting invite!

    3. AnotherFed*

      Some people just seem to suck at email, or are always swamped, or it doesn’t occur to them that the due date is really the due date and not a cushioned estimate.

      You probably have a very consistent list of people who miss deadlines, so can you send just them a reminder email? There’s one guy at my office I have to corner for his signature on documents. He’s supposed to sign electronically, but no one makes him because it’s much easier to pin him at the coffee maker or on his way to the restroom and make him sign his name on the hard copy.

    4. little Cindy Lou who*

      In my experience it’s generally the same people who need to be chased down. I’d just find a way to call them or reach them in person. If not or that’s a huge hassle, outline the problem and what you’ve done thus far to notify them to your manager. If your manager addresses it with theirs, or tells you to CC theirs on follow up, magic sometimes happens.

  114. Tom*

    When I was hired for my part-time salaried position, it was with a verbal understanding that my job would require (on average) 15 hours of work every week. I have found in the past three years that, while I almost never work less than 15 hours a week, I often work 20, and occasionally work as many as 40 hours to complete the job at a quality level I am comfortable with. I recently learned that my salary is several thousand short of the “cut-off” line for exempt work, and as such, I believe I am legally entitled to pay that matches the hours I am working each week.

    However, this would require having a set number of hours per week, and I believe any conversation I have with my superiors will lead to an increase in my hourly expectation without an increase in compensation. The people who agreed to my “average of 15 hours a week” concept are all gone now, and current leadership has expressed that they wish I was more available to them than I currently am. I’d like to say this is a good position to negotiate a raise, but in the past year, modest raises have been rejected out-of-hand (including one proposal I brought to increase my hours) and at least one contractor working for us had their pay cut.

    So, I deal with the situation. My solution is to find somewhere else to make a living, and to get clearly and in writing the hourly expectations at that job. In the meantime, is there any reason I should have the “exempt” or “not exempt” conversation? Am I leaving myself or my employer (or a potential successor) in a bad spot with the current setup?

    1. INTP*

      If you’ve been misclassified as exempt, then you’re generally not just entitled to pay that matches your hours going forward but to back pay for every extra hour you’ve worked in the past. So that’s something to be aware of as it could play a big role in any discussion with your company.

      I’m not entirely sure how the whole situation works with a part time job, though – if they owe you for every hour over the agreed upon hour or if it’s still just that they owe you only for hours above 40 regardless of what was agreed. If you decide to leave without pursuing back pay or hourly compensation or anything with the company, I don’t know that mentioning anything on your way out is worth it – they’ll probably screw over the potential successor too but you might not want to sour your relationship by leaving on a negative note.

      1. Tom*

        My understanding is that I would be entitled to the back pay if I in fact had something more official than my own memories to support that I should be working a 15-hour work week. Since I don’t, though, I think it’s a lost cause. I also would imagine that hours have to be officially approved in order for me to pursue back pay for them… otherwise what’s to stop me from just coming in some day, working an extra 8-10 hours, and demanding they pay me for it, without them having agreed?

        Sigh. I agree that it’s probably not worth mentioning at this point, although there is a decent chance that I might not find anything better, and be stuck here for a while… even then, I think it’s likely that any attempt I make to argue this with my employer OR the government will, at best, result in a higher time responsibility for little or no increase in pay.

        1. INTP*

          Hours don’t have to be approved for you to be owed back pay for them – your employer can fire you for working unapproved hours, but if they are worked, they have to be paid, even if you did it just to screw them over. But I’m not sure how it works with an unofficial understanding about the hours expected since the rules are mainly built around the assumption that a work week will be 40 hours.

      2. Natalie*

        I think Tom would only be eligible for OT backpay, or backpay in any week where the part time salary works out to less than minimum wage. The FLSA doesn’t address hours under 40 at all.

        1. Tom*

          I’m not 100% on what the FLSA says about back pay, since I don’t think I have sufficient documentation to make a case. My understanding (no guarantees) is that, regardless of part-time or full-time, if you make less than $22,500 you are considered non-exempt and thus should be paid hourly, which means if I had any provable claim to my 15-hour work week, my salary divided by 52 weeks, divided by 15 hours, would be my hourly wage, and if I worked 17 hours one week, I should be paid for that.

    2. BRR*

      I would kind of based off of spite. I would say I believe I’m missclassified due to a,b,c, and I wouldn’t want us to get in trouble.

      1. Tom*

        So tempted to do so! Unfortunately, since there is no documentation on my 15-hour work week arrangement, I don’t think I’d have a case for any back pay… and attempt to get documentation going forward would quite likely turn into “enjoy your new 20+ hour work week for the same pay”. I know they would like me to work more hours if they don’t have to pay for it.

    3. Marcy Marketer*

      If I were you, I would start capping my hours at 15 a week and not doing any work beyond my 15 hours. If anyone asks you to take a call, answer an email, or anything like that, I’d say something like, “We’ve reached my 15 hours this week, and while I’d love to work on this project, I’d need you to authorize extra overtime.” After several weeks of being asked to do extra work, I’d go into a meeting with your bosses with a log of your hours and requests for extra time. Then say that you think you can bring better value to the company by extending your role in the organization, and give them a concrete number of what that will cost.

      1. Tom*

        Thanks! Maybe I am just being chicken, but I’m worried about the result that would have. Nobody currently in leadership was involved in the 15-hour agreement, and I’ve been told a couple times since that I am expected to work as many hours “as the job takes”. I don’t think anybody’s trying to be nasty about that, but the second I refuse to do 15+ hours, or invoke the law, I think it could get real sticky real quick, and I don’t know for certain that they wouldn’t rather find my replacement than pay me like they’re supposed to… they’re very frugal these days.

        1. Marcy Marketer*

          Do you really have no documentation? Like no emails, no letter of employment, nothing? If that’s the case, you should just have a meeting with them and say that the terms of the position have changed from when you were originally hired, and you just can’t meet the new terms at this salary, and ask them how they’d like you to proceed. If they say “get it done no matter how long it takes,” you can say, I’m sorry that’s just not possible. how should I prioritize my time? Alison has a post like this where she gives a good script of what to say, but it’s kind of like that. Then you just have to accept that you won’t be as high of a performer as you were before you started to enforce your hours. In the end, you might have to agree to part ways, but at least you’ll have tried something.

          1. Tom*

            I have no documentation at all, and believe me I am kicking myself all the time about that. It was handled entirely verbally, aside from a job description that I had them write up… and, I guess, pay stubs. But neither of those address time expectation.

            I appreciate your thoughts, some good stuff for me to consider here. I ultimately think I’m in a no-win scenario in this particular position if I am not willing to concede the time — in my most recent performance evaluation, I mentioned that having to put in more than 15 hours on a regular basis, along with the demands of my other part-time jobs, was taking a toll… I did not get much response to that, but was strongly encouraged to take part in some job-related activities that would be even more of a time commitment.

            Great advice about settling for being a little lower of a performer — this feels totally backward, but I think is the only way I will stay sane until I find a position with more reasonable expectations.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Do they have a job description?
      Do you have a list of the various things you do?

      They can’t be paying you 5k per year and expecting you to work 30 hours a week.
      Yes, you are in a bad spot, so is your successor if nothing changes.

      I’d ignore their “wishes” for more availability. Work it out mathematically. You work x hours per month and get paid y dollars. Divide to calculate z dollars per hour. Tell them you only make z dollars per hour and you cannot do more hours than that because you have other commitments that you must attend to. Period. End of discussion.

      You can check online to find the differences between exempt and non-exempt.

  115. INTP*

    This is a totally petty complaint, but I felt like venting.

    I’m about to graduate from grad school. In my industry, at least in the US (it’s different in other countries where the industry is larger) in-house jobs are very rare and mostly for more experienced people and the vast majority work as freelancers (with multiple clients, not as consultants with one job at a time). My plan is to keep my current, very flexible, very few positions of this type available part-time job to pay the bills and move in with my parents a bit while setting up a freelance business.

    I know people are just trying to be polite and show some interest but it seems like all of my relatives are constantly asking if I’ve found a job yet, talking about how I’ll find a great job, asking if they think my part time employer will offer me a permanent job, etc. Even my parents, who I have spoken to extensively about this, keep planning for my future involving some job at an employer. (I don’t think it’s that they don’t want me to move in – they encouraged it, and also encouraged me to look for a full time job at an office near them so I could live with them but still have a full time job.) It’s like every time I discuss my future, I have to tell someone “Nope, no job prospects on the horizon” and feel like a slacker. I don’t expect relatives that see me a few times a year to remember that 6 months ago I said I was planning to freelance and not ask me, but it’s annoying. And my parents have known my plan for awhile, so when I discuss far-future possibilities like buying a condo and they still tell me “You need to get a job and then you can buy your condo within a short commute to that job” it feels like I’m not being taken seriously and no one believes I can carry out my plans.

    On a rational level I know that most industries don’t work the same way as this one, and to most people it’s totally foreign for a salaried permanent job to not be the ultimate goal so they think they’re just being encouraging or I’ll change my mind…but on an irrational level it’s annoying and hurts my feelings.

    1. MsM*

      Maybe if you emphasize the setting up your own business part over the freelance aspect when you remind them, it’ll sink in that this is a serious venture? (Though then they might actually ask to see your business plan, so you might want to be prepared for that.)

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Would it help if you could say something like, “Actually, I’m focusing on finding clients, not a full time job. My field is more like a [tax accountant/eye doctor/tattoo artist/plumber/whatever], so don’t count on me having a normal job. I’ll be more of a freelancer or independent contractor.”

      I think it would be better to tell them your plan than to tell them you don’t have any job prospects. Steer them towards asking how your business is growing instead of if you have a job.

      1. INTP*

        I usually do explain that I’m concentrating on building a client base and growing my freelance business, but I haven’t yet compared it to more common professions like accountants and plumbers yet. I will try that, giving a frame of reference might help.

    3. Tom*

      I can totally understand that. I’ve been juggling multiple part-time jobs and freelancing since I graduated college 10 years ago, and I am always asked, “What is your real job?” or something like that by folks I work with part-time. People don’t always get that not everybody has the opportunity/desire/whatever to work a single job.

      Maybe highlight the positive aspects of what you are doing when people ask you… it sounds like you have a game plan, and are working currently as well, both legit answers to people asking about your job status. There is also the time-honored strategy of changing the subject, haha.

      Ultimately you’re the best judge of whether or not what you’re doing is working for you, and you can choose to share that with others or not. Best wishes setting up your business!

    4. C Average*

      I think the word “freelance” is kind of a hot button for people of a certain demographic who view a full-time desk job at one location as a necessary condition for adulthood and success. I’d try to excise that word from your vocabulary when you talk to these folks. Instead, focus on telling them you are a writer/consultant/chocolate teapot maker and you are excited about all the work you’re doing for writing/consulting/chocolate teapot clients.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        Totally agree. Just on a marketing level, if you can position yourself as a consultant or small business owner in the language you use to market your services, perhaps by creating a website that goes beyond a portfolio or by creating an LLC with an official name, you will be able to charge more for your services, as well.

        1. INTP*

          That’s good to know. Most of the people saying this stuff are my parents’ generation and older, so maybe they see an entirely different connotation to the word “freelance” than I do. (To me, freelance, contract, serial temp, consultant, etc are all the same, and having entered the workforce at the height (trough?) of the recession, I don’t really see the salaried long-term job as more secure than the consultant/freelancer model – it is on a month-by-month basis, but on the other hand also has a greater risk of 100% of your income being yanked away at once.)

    5. Steve G*

      This is why I haven’t told 1/2 of the people I know I left my last job and am job hunting. I so can’t listen to all of the standard career advice (“you can’t find a job without a job” type stuff) or people asking “what are you doing” as if I’m doing nothing (nope, just renovating a new house, looking for a job, learning computer programming, and going to classes at the gym 3-4 nights a week). I don’t want advice that would be fitting for a deadbeat just because I am not working for this (probably very short) period!

      So I feel your pain!

  116. AmyNYC*

    I’m taking another professional exam tomorrow and not feeling too confident, any good vibes would be welcome!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      You can do this. Picture yourself walking out of the exam with a great big ear to ear grin on your face because you know you nailed it. Keep that picture in your head.

  117. RandomName*

    When interviewing someone, should you probe more deeply when you know they’re giving you a BS answer? For example, someone we interviewed left her job over a month ago and is not currently working. I confirmed with her that it was voluntary. So then I asked why she left and she said there wasn’t a lot room for growth and she’s looking for a job where she can move up. I sensed the answer was BS, but I resisted the urge to ask her, “Why would you leave an existing job for a job that doesn’t exist for you yet?”

    This came up at the beginning of the interview, so I hadn’t formed much of an opinion at that point; though by the end of the interview, I realized she wouldn’t be a good fit for other reasons.

    1. The Toxic Avenger*

      When I interview people, it depends on how many times my BS meter goes off. If it is on one question, I’ll usually dig a little deeper. If the interviewee sticks to the pat answer, I’ll move on, but I’ll look for other signs that may lend additional context to the situation. For instance, in your case, you could check her resume for other employment gaps, or ask questions pertaining to why she left other jobs.

      If I get the BS vibe on a bunch of questions, I’ll just pass on them.

      1. Steve G*

        To give them a chance to redeem themselves and be honest? I would love interviewers to ask more of these type of direct, follow up questions. As someone who has a layoff in their history, I want to be asked “why didn’t they keep you,” I am wondering if I am coming across as dispensable if past job could have laid me off, but it was more involved than that, they didn’t just keep the good and get rid of the bad, they kept who fit into their new org chart the best….

        1. Sadsack*

          I understand what you mean, but I am under the impression that RandomName meant should he call someone out who he knows is bullshitting him, which is different. Maybe I misunderstood RandomName, though.

          1. RandomName*

            Well, I’m with Steve G. At the beginning of that interview, I hadn’t formed any opinions, and the answer seemed so odd to me that I figured there was no way it could be true. But I didn’t want to keep probing and make the interviewee, who I’m sure was already nervous, even more nervous. And I also didn’t want to come off as accusatory. I guess if I could think of a diplomatic way to question statements like that, that would probably be the best route. I have a hard time not being blunt, though, and having to phrase a follow up question delicate usually takes some thought process on my part.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              “So, I’ll be honest, I’m sitting here wondering why you’d leave a job without another one lined up yet, which makes me wonder what else was going on. Anything else you’re comfortable sharing?”

              And if you still don’t get a real answer, you make a mental note to inquire further with a reference from that job.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I’d ask exactly that question, later on in the interview, if I wanted to know, why not?

      “Why would you leave an existing job for a job that doesn’t exist for you yet?”

      She didn’t give a BS answer, she gave a guarded one.

      I like to establish a rapport when I interview, so I’m not going to start the interview grilling, but I’d loop back to that. I like to ask clear questions that people can answer clearly if they so choose.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Way to go. I left a job because of company-wide corruption. People either knew about it or they were totally shocked/blindsided by it. Either way, I was not going to talk about it. So some interviewers thought I was bs’ing and other interviewers were in awe that I coped for so long at Old Job. (I was not handling money and it was very clear that I had nothing to do with the corruption.)

        From my perspective it was interesting to find out just how many knew the extent of the corruption. People that I never would have thought of as being in the know- were actually knowledgeable about the situation.

    4. Jennifer*

      She’s trying to give a politically correct answer because she can’t say something like “I quit without a job because the boss was sexually harassing me.”

      You can probably figure out she left for some bad reason that she can’t say publicly about an employer.

        1. Graciosa*

          This is exactly why the interviewer needs to ask the question.

          Without information, we fill in our own assumptions (the departure was the result of bad behavior of the manager / employee) and the truth is that we just don’t know enough yet.

          The one thing we do know is that there is important information missing – so ask the question.

      2. RandomName*

        Or it could have been something like, “My manager was going to fire me so I resigned.”

  118. newb*

    What does “OK” mean??

    Is OK appropriate for “yes, heard what you said; that is what I understand as true” and also “yes, I am agreeing to what you proposed”?? It’s too abrupt, I sense, for a standalone (though some people use it as a standalone, and are they being brusque??). But what else do you say, if you’re on that end? Basically how do you use “OK,” am I insane for analyzing this. Thank you.

    1. newb*

      Related: how do you signal “roger”/”yes I heard you and I will act accordingly” in business writing? Thank you.

      1. Christy*

        If it’s a short email that was telling me to do something, I’ll respond with “Will do.”

      2. fposte*

        Emailed? “Agreed; I’ll get right on it/I’m on it/I’ve asked the staff to cover it.”

        “OK” means either “I got the email notifying me of something I don’t need to take any action on” or “I need to expand on my meaning and will make you wonder what I was trying to say.” I don’t use “okay” as a sole response in email; it doesn’t fit the culture where I am.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            heh,

            We use “yup” as a single word reply. Also “ok”.

            Means, “acknowledged and agreed”.

      5. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Sometimes I will actually write ‘roger that’ in emails and no one’s complained yet.

      6. Anonymous Coward*

        I distinguish between the two (“roger” vs “roger, wilco”) with “Understood” and “Sure, will do.”

        1. newb*

          i don’t understand “wilco” still but am not dumb and am employed so trying to figure it out. “will call”? i dunno

          1. ella*

            I didn’t know either, so I looked it up–Wilco is a shortened form of WILl COMply. Roger means “I have received your message.” So “Roger, wilco” is “I have received your message and will do what you’re asking me to do.” It’s radio-speak commonly used among aviators and ham/CB radio folks.

      7. Katie the Fed*

        I go with:

        Got it, thanks
        Will do, thanks
        Understood

        Or if I’m feeling a wee bit snarky or someone is bugging me, I might (occasionally) do:

        “Noted.”

        But I don’t do that one much. It’s kind of dickish.

        1. QualityControlFreak*

          Will do.
          I’m on it.
          Got it – thanks.
          Okay used with any of the above, okay. As a standalone, too vague.

      8. AnotherFed*

        “Roger.” or “Will do.” Or, if it’s more formal, “Newb, I can get Task X, Y, Z to you by the date you requested.”

    2. Christy*

      My boss uses OK to approve leave requests.

      I personally wouldn’t just respond with an OK until someone was telling me a plan and I am agreeing to the plan.

    3. RandomName*

      I hate getting “OK” as the sole response to an email. I always get the impression the person is annoyed when they write it.

        1. Sadsack*

          I have responded with OK to my manager when he has given me a specific thing to do via email. Not sure why that would give an impression of being annoyed. He has never acted like he thought I might be annoyed. If he asks me to do something in person, I say, “OK.” I guess this just depends on who you are emailing and the nature of the email.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I get that too, but it depends on context. If I write a paragraph explaining that I have an emergency and will be out for the next two days, and here’s the info on X, Y, and Z that Coworker will cover while I’m out, and the answer is “OK,” I’m thinking is it really okay?

        If my email is, “Hey, I signed and returned that invoice to accounting,” and the answer is “OK” I just assume it’s okay and the other person had no further comment.

    4. Buu*

      Oh dear I say OK verbally when my Boss makes a random comment on my work or gives me a random task ( that I already have done, this is making me paranoid it’s yet another thing I do that upsets him.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I doubt it’s an issue. I’d rather get an “ok” than 20 reasons why you don’t want to do this thing I’m assigning you :)

      2. RandomName*

        I don’t like getting a single OK as a response to an email, but verbally I don’t mind because there are other non-verbal cues I can pick up on in person that signal that the person isn’t annoyed or otherwise inconvenienced, such as tone. You lose those non-verbal cues with email.

    5. AnotherFed*

      OK is the equivalent of a read receipt. It means they read it and have no argument, but it doesn’t mean they signed up to do anything unless the original email was “Do X.”

      We use “Understood.” as a neutral response to convey that the statement/email was heard/understood, but that they did not cause any change in plans or convince the listener to agree.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I use “ok” when I know a person is dumping a load of information on me and I want to indicate that I am listening and the person should continue speaking.

      “my order number is X and I placed it in January.”
      okay
      “Now I have questions. Can I add 200 units and change the deadline?”
      okay, let me take a look here
      “And while you are at it, I need to change my address with you people”
      Okay, that is fine.

      I over used it there to show the examples of how I use it. But I mostly try not to give one word answers. I think one word answers generally get people uncomfortable.

      I do say okay a lot. I teach my dogs that word because it fits so many situations. And it’s a knee-jerk response in people. My dog will start barking and most people will say “it’s okay” before they think of “quiet!” or “stop!”.

  119. Jen RO*

    I spent 4 days this week in Paris, traveling for work… but I was so busy I didn’t even have time to eat, let alone walk around! Thank God it’s Friday, and my timezone means that I’m home already!

    1. newb*

      gosh you’re lucky!! i’m jealous. (says Newb here in nyc, with some of the best museums in the world…..)

  120. Jader*

    My Husband is moving on to interview part 3 (he already did a phone interview and a three person panel interview) at a company that is a very very exciting opportunity for our family. Part 3 is to give a 15 minute presentation on the topic of your choice, the job is in corporate training. He thinks he wants to teach a simple dice game, but I’m concerned this isn’t professional enough. We are in really different industries though so I have no experience whatsoever in this type of thing. Is this a good idea? Does anyone have any general tips I could pass along to him?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      My guess is that they are looking for two things here: presentation skills in general (being clear, entertaining enough, good presence, etc.) and some evidence that he’d be able to demonstrate these skills while training on topics relevant to them. I feel like the dice game would be a missed opportunity on #2.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I agree. He should try to touch on something that is a little more of value or relevance to the job and the people interviewing him. Even a tangent subject would be fine. Encourage him to maximize the opportunity.

  121. Lauren*

    My BF’s company had 1-on-1 meetings with each employee to discuss their dept, boss, salary, happiness, and overall systems that they use. Its mainly to determine if the systems are old and pointless to through money at when an out of box solution exists for a lot less money. My BF’s boss held a meeting beforehand with his employees telling everyone that these meetings will end up determining if they all keep their jobs. Basically, getting everyone to clam up vs. being honest about everything and tow the dept line that the boss is telling his bosses.

    My BF decided to tell the truth, the systems old, no one would choose to use them anywhere else, they cost a ton to support, and other things about his time there. Nothing bad, never said anything about complaining about his boss, just confirming that their are cheaper options out there and that they are easier to support. When asked directly about his boss, he did say ‘Joe has his favorites’. This conversation was supposed to be anonymous with nothing recorded, but 4 days later my BF gets called into his bosses office.

    Suddenly, the boss is all about course correction for my BF with a laundry list of items emailed to him to work on. My BF has his review in January, his annual review wasn’t this detailed. Obviously, I think this is retaliation and someone the person he spoke must have relayed a phrase or something that pinpointed it was my BF that talked.

    I told my BF to go to HR or at least the person that had the meetings alerting to a potential timing issue of this sudden list of items that didn’t exist 2 months ago at his review. My BF wants to be positive, and step up his game. But this is a boss that barely documents anything (all communication is usually in person) and suddenly there is a paper trail. While not labeled as a PIP or warning, its definitely suspicious. It definitely seems like the list of stuff will be deemed not done, and that there will follow up emails stating he isn’t improving fairly soon. I feel like there is no way that my BF can improve, and that the boss is merely doing the paperwork to push him out without a lawsuit.

    If my BF doesn’t alert HR to the timing of the list 4 days after he gave honest feedback, can he claim retaliation later on? He thinks he can improve and it won’t be an issue. I think he is delusional and needs to prepare himself by telling someone about the timing. But if he doesn’t alert HR, can he use the timing after he is fired as a wrongful termination suit?

    1. The IT Manager*

      I don’t think your boyfriend has any legal grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit if he’s fired for this. I do not think telling the business about boss and bad office systems is something that results in legal protection from retaliation. I’m not saying it’s not retaliation in the dictionary definition, but that kind of retaliation is not illegal.

      1. The IT Manager*

        Federal law protects employees from retaliation when employees complain — either internally or to an outside body like the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) — about workplace discrimination or harassment. That’s true even if the claim turns out to be unfounded, as long as it was made in good faith.

        The law also protects employees who cooperate in EEOC investigations or serve as witnesses in EEOC investigations or litigation. A recent Supreme Court case confirms that an employee’s participation as a witness in an internal investigation is protected, too. And various federal laws protect other types of “whistleblowers” too, such as those who complain of unsafe working conditions. (For more information, see Nolo’s article Assert Your Safety Rights Without Fear of Retaliation.)

        – http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/workplace-retaliation-employee-rights-30217.html

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with IT Manager. It’s perfectly legal to fire your boyfriend for this. Crappy, but legal.

      Wrongful termination is when you’re fired for a reason forbidden by law, usually for discrimination against a protected category. Saying that your work product sucks isn’t protected by law, and it’s legal for the company to hold it against him; not only doesn’t the timing matter, they can legally say it’s because of what he said in the 1:1. Your boyfriend’s instincts for stepping up his game seem like the right one if he’s looking to retain his position, but it’s probably a good idea for him to polish up his resume, because if he doesn’t believe in what they’re doing and they’re unhappy about it, he’s probably better off elsewhere.

      1. Lauren*

        It’s a university, you’d think they would take any retaliation seriously and tell the manager to knock it off especially since part of this process was to evaluate the manager. All universities use some sort of archaic systems, and usually they are trying to keep them if only to keep their own jobs. So my BF thought that this process was to truly find out if they should make changes, so he was honest and said yes the systems don’t make sense in 2015. But now its going to cost him his job. So unfair. This is why people are never honest in these surveys and meetings like this. At least with a college, you need like 3 warnings. So when he gets his 2nd one, he will realize there is no hope to save his job and start looking elsewhere.

        I say when, because this boss never does lists like this. Its clearly not to improve, its just laying the ground of a PIP in writing so that he can fire him in a few months.

        1. fposte*

          And that’s legal. I think you’re feeling “retaliation” to carry more of a weight than it has. They don’t have to tell him to knock it off because it’s perfectly legal for him to do. Universities don’t care more than any other organization about sucky and quixotic management, and often they care even less.

          It’s crummy, but it’s not something that HR is likely to care about.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          OK, the harsh reality is that the boss basically told everyone that this was not the time or place to be forthright with opinions. That’s terrible management, and I’m not defending the boss.

          But, it’s not like your BF didn’t know this going in, right? I mean, boss basically said “if you make me look bad, you’ll lose your job” and BF made him look bad. That’s…not a good idea. Not every fight is worth fighting.

          What the boss did is unethical and terrible, but it’s legal.

          I would suggest BF works on damage mitigation and finding another job.

    3. some1*

      What IT Mgr and Fposte said. Also, while it may have been intended to be anonymous, that still means the feedback would be reported to the boss. People we are typically going to recognize the the parlance and turn of phrase that of someone they work with.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If I were an employer who had decided to put that much energy into seeking employees’ opinions, I’d be pissed as hell to learn that a manager had told his team to BS me. (Actually, I’d be pissed about it regardless of whether I’d put energy into, but that element makes it worse.)

      This carries some risk, but your boyfriend could consider talking to whoever is overseeing the input-gathering process and letting that person know that (a) his boss told everyone to lie during this process and (b) when he didn’t lie, he suddenly started seeing signs that the boss plans to push him out as a result. There are three ways that could end: (1) maybe nothing happens, (2) the person is horrified, looks into it, and your boyfriend is protected from retaliation (and the boss is in huge trouble), or (3) your boyfriend gets in even deeper shit with his boss than he is now. If he’s in the process of being fired anyway, #3 might not be that worrisome. But he does need to realize that’s part of the risk in doing this.

      But if I were the person hearing that report, I’d look into it and I’d fire that boss if it turned out to be true. I did fire a manager in a similar situation, actually.

      1. BRR*

        I’m in the camp of it looks like the bf is going to get fired anyways so he might as well report it.

        Also he should start job hunting just in case.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.”

          I agree with you BRR.

          My husband used to say “If you yank a chain on a toilet you can not blame it for flushing.”
          Cause and effect relationships.
          BF needs to understand, that you can speak up and you can say the truth and sometimes the price for that is very steep. Before one speaks one must figure out if they are willing to pay the price.
          BF might as well follow up on it and see where it goes. He’s got nothing to lose at this point.

      2. Lauren*

        He is determined to remain positive, and study up on his ‘failures’. He thinks upping his game will make it all go away. My instinct was to tell my BF, to start responding to his boss about each and every one of the things on the list. “Hey Joe, I got a certified in X – I can now handle 1,2,3 with confidence.” Basically, systematically documenting how my BF is working on every single item. So that the boss can’t claim no improvement later on. It was a way to skip telling anyone about the boss, cause clearly that won’t work in his favor based on the last time.

  122. Amber Rose*

    I have to write JSAs or job safety analyses for office stuff like the printer/copier/scanner.

    Outside of picking it up and throwing it at someone, and not copying your face, I can’t think of how this thing could pose a threat.

    Ideas?

    1. puddin*

      electric shock, chemicals used in the toner, eye exposure to the scanning light, pinching/crushing fingers in the mechanisms while trying to unjam, dont put your hand in the stapling area, paper cuts?

        1. cuppa*

          OMG. I had no idea until I took a cartridge out wrong and dumped that powdered toner EVERYWHERE. What a mess.

      2. Sadsack*

        Also, the inside parts can be hot! Be careful when pulling out jammed paper for that reason.

      3. Vanishing Girl*

        Also some of the components in printers and copiers get super-hot. You can easily burn yourself when trying to get a paper jam out.

    2. Sabrina*

      I had a coworker get her arm stuck in the copier while trying to get a paper jam out. Paramedics had to be called. Feel free to use that one. :)

    3. AnotherFed*

      The internal moving parts probably have grease or some other lubricant – it’s probably hazardous if you eat that. Depending on how industrial your device is, long hair and dangly jewelry can get caught in the mechanisms. It’s not going to cause the same kind of disaster as when those get stuck in a lathe, but it’s probably still possible to get stuck.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      People who repair laser printers have to sign a document that they will not look directly at the laser. Lasers will blind people.
      Electric shock hazards.
      If the machine is heavy- then you might want safety guidelines for lifting/moving it.
      Dropping things down into the mechanism. Spilling coffee into the operating parts.

      Years ago, people would sit on a copier and copy their bottom. No sitting on the glass. (I can’t make this stuff up, I’m not that creative.)
      People also use copiers to copy money. This will trigger an automatic call to the FBI after 3 attempts and will lock up certain types of copiers.

      Use of static mats to prevent static electricity from damaging the internals.

      Eh, if you have a problem with this you might want to add that hitting the print button harder does not make the copy darker.

      You should have a comprehensive list in the user guides for these machines. I would look at each one and compile your list off of what you find there.

  123. Wee*

    I’ve heard of leaving jobs off resumes because of a short time of employment. Has anyone done this? Is it ok to leave a 3 month job off of a resume? How have you handled this in an interview?

    1. Steve G*

      Yes. I leave 3 short term jobs off of my resume and have had 3 jobs since (one of them in between the 2nd and 3rd job ago) and they NEVER come back to bite me in the back

    2. The IT Manager*

      You can leave short term jobs off a resume (not an application that asks you to list all your previous jobs). You don’t mention it in the interview. Don’t lie, but if it’s that short term presumably you didn’t have any great experieinces, accomplishments or achievements to mention in an interview.

    3. Apollo Warbuks*

      Resumes are marketing document and you are not obligated to put all of your jobs on there, but you’ll need to have an explanation for what you were doing with yourself in that time if you’re asked at interview. You might be able to pass it off as job hunting but don’t lie by extending your time at a previous employer or leave the job off a list that clearly asks for all previous employment.

    4. Wee*

      Thank you for the answers. Does anyone have advice on how one explains a bad fit without sounding like a bad applicant?

      1. fposte*

        How many employment years do you have otherwise, and how long ago is the gap? Or is this a different position than the three-month position?

        Generally, if you had a bad fit five years ago and have worked successfully since, people don’t really care; if they ask, it’s not that pressing a question, and it’s fine to say “I’m more of a fit with places that are lively and creative/thoughtful and planning-inclined/whatever like Teapots Inc., where I worked for the next five years.”

        1. Wee*

          The 3 month job was in 2013. I’ve been in my current position for 15 months and I like it but my workload has drastically shrunk. My manager keeps talking about how bad the company is and that he thinks he and other managers are about to get fired. He keeps talking about looking for another job and it’s making me feel like I need to be prepared and start looking myself.

  124. Dynamic Beige*

    I’d like to get people’s thoughts on résumés — are there certain positions, job titles or situations where one would not be required? Or should you always have one?

    To give some context, someone I know who is self-employed and does project management work was recently asked for a résumé. I assume it was for a project as I’m 99.999% certain they are not seeking full-time permanent employment at another company.

    This has happened to me a few times, but not in maybe the past 10 years of being freelance/working for myself. When this did happen, it also involved the potential client wanting to see portfolio samples and an in-person interview — for a freelance position where they had been referred my name by someone (they would not tell me who when I asked them). By the time I got that last request, I had been down this road a few times and it had never netted me the work, so I let it go. I have been asked for a profile occasionally which would be used in an RFP, but not a résumé. I have not bothered to keep one up to date and frankly, like my friend who was just asked for one, have no idea how I would go about writing one if it suddenly became a requirement for something.

    So, if anyone out there has an idea what the rationale is behind something like this, I’d like to know. Maybe it’s a requirement of all government (or other industry) jobs to confirm education or years of experience? Do you think that this might be a case of someone who is new to a role and doesn’t understand how something works looking for education or other credentials in a format they understand? I mean, if you’re trying to find someone to produce YourReallyBig Conference and you don’t want to hire a large specialty agency, wouldn’t you do an RFP? Or a request a credentials package? Or maybe have them come in to do a dog n’ pony show?

    Finally, does anyone have any suggestions on where to go to find information on writing a résumé? I did a search on here thinking this would be the best place rather than wading through a billion Google hits and there would be some sort of a “these are the best résumé writing tips/website suggestions” type list, but couldn’t find anything. I might have just used the wrong search terms :/

    1. The IT Manager*

      Yes. Vendors often include resumes of key individuals in bids for government contracts. My agency asks for a resume when I submit for an industry certificate (to prove that I have experience in the area they are certifying for). Since I only need my resume for that certificate, I send very little time (10 minutes) updating it – no polishing necessary. So it really depends on the purpose of the resume for how much time you spend making it great.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      My company has a resume for everyone for submittal with our proposals. I would consider this very normal for anyone responding to RFPs, for sure. The rationale that I see is that the proposal is based on the company’s qualifications, but the client wants to know about the qualifications of the specific team that will be assigned to their project. (Of course, we turn these in with the best team possible, and then the team switches. . .the PM usually doesn’t, but some key people can change unless the client gets their panties in a wad about it.) Mine looks like this:

      AnotherAlison, XXX
      Title
      Years of Experience: a lot
      Years with Company: also a lot
      Education: degree 1
      degree 2

      Professional Experience: Paragraph summary

      Project Experience
      Roles/projects are listed individually. The recent ones have about three sentences describing my role on the project. The old ones just list the role and project.

      Previous Company Experience
      Role/project 1
      Role/project 2
      . . .

      The resume doesn’t include anything like a list of my software skills or my volunteer experience, like you might have on a job-seeking resume.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Do you work at a privately held company? I guess when you say “for everyone for submittal with our proposals” that wouldn’t include the company owner/president/CEO would it because they wouldn’t be part of the team executing the work? Or you don’t use independent contractors on your proposals, just key full-time employees?

        Perhaps in my industry people just play fast-and-loose with this stuff, relying on profiles for RFPs because so much of the work is contracted out. “DB has been outstanding in this field for over 20 years. Along with solid grass-mowing skills and ability to identify dangerous weeds, they also know how to shoo cows in before sundown — every cow, in the barn, before dark, every time!” Rather than more formal things that would lead to awkward questions.

        I guess too that it’s hard because as an independent contractor, I am required as part of a project to present myself as one of Team [insert company name here, that is not MyCompanyName]. I am not allowed to use my e-mail to interface with my client’s clients — they either give me an e-mail that makes it appear as if I’m a full-time employee or all communication is passed through someone else (project manager, team lead, sales guy, VP, creative). If I were to do up a résumé similar to the one you gave as an example, it would quickly give away that I am an independent contractor because it would be something like:

        DB, Owner (president, chief cook and bottle washer, title with Designer in it?)
        MyCompanyName
        Years with Company: 19XX to present <– instead of whoever was going to contract me for the job.

        I don't know — and have never been asked to do this — but it would probably be illegal to falsify a document so that it looks like you're a full-time employee in order to gain a contract, wouldn't it? Some kind of fraud?

        I guess this has kind of clarified the situation as my acquaintance is in a more sales oriented/client facing position as head of their own company (where I am not) and if a résumé is a requirement for certain kinds of contracts, I guess it would make sense that they would be asked for one. If their business continues to grow, they may find themselves in this position more often and then maybe it won't be so strange to them.

  125. BananaPants*

    Just a celebration for me – I’ve been ready for a promotion for the last 2 years and had started to lose hope that it was ever going to happen. Even worse, I’d been promised the promotion two years ago if I achieved specific deliverables in the next year, I did exactly that (and fit in having a baby), and then the promotion didn’t happen. I was preparing to do some job hunting this summer just to see what might be out there in my field because I knew I was underpaid given my experience and skillset. Money aside, it was getting frustrating to see male coworkers with less education and experience doing similar or easier tasks and getting this promotion before me.

    Well, I was told an hour ago that I’m being promoted and getting a decent (although not stellar) raise, effective April 1st. :) I’m on cloud 9!

  126. Anonsie*

    I need so much advice right now. Yeesh. I’ll start with an easier one.

    Can I get some diplomatic ways to push back on someone trying to delegate tasks to you that should not be yours? I have a colleague who handles the public-facing parts of our department but frequently forwards assignments falling into that court over to me without really acknowledging that it’s outside my scope. Then she’ll follow up by emailing me something like “are you working on this?” or “what’s the status of this?” sometimes with a note that the big boss is inquiring about it and wants it done.

    When she initially hands me stuff like this I’ll typically say something with the agentive party being her (“you can talk to Wakeen about that, he can help you with this part”). I feel like I’m pretty careful to not give the impression that I’m taking it on. Regardless, I’ll typically get a follow up as above, and then I’m not sure how to say “no because you should be working on it.” In the past I’ve gone for something like “I thought you were handling that with Wakeen?” because I was pretty sure it was a miscommunication. Increasingly I am feeling that this colleague knows full well that I am not accepting these tasks and is pushing back on it.

    The thing is that these things are *really* outside my scope. I sometimes pitch in to cover for her when she has to be away so we have everything covered in a pinch, but day to day we don’t have any overlapping tasks. I don’t have the resources or time to take extra tasks from her unless it’s an emergency. Additionally, we’re peers organizationally so there’s no reason for her to delegate to me regularly. Our management has told me to hand certain types of tasks off to her in the past but that’s gone about as well as the above.

    I’m not sure how to be more firm without sounding accusatory. My org is very much a place where directness is considered hostility and is not encouraged by management, so the most frank I’ve felt I could be in the past is by explaining to her that I am very busy with other tasks and these aren’t really in my scope so it can’t be assumes that I will regularly take them. It didn’t go over extremely well and her reaction was that these things just need to be done.

    An extra rub, I think that when people ask her for updates on these things she tells them I’m supposed to be doing it but makes out like it’s not done because I’m blowing it off. I’ve had notes about not being responsible from management and I think this is the source (they don’t disclose that). So on top of making it clear to this colleagues, I also need a way to communicate to other people in a diplomatic way that no, I never agreed to take the thing you gave Jane, because just saying “Jane is handling that, not me” isn’t cutting it.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      This sounds so frustrating!

      One thing that we do here is CC or forward Wakeen when you initially say “Sorry, I can’t take this right now, but Wakeen can help.” (Of course, around here people will usually also go crazy and then make sure that all relevant directors are also cc’d, but that doesn’t sound like your culture). That way, at least one other person is looped in on the fact that you aren’t on that project.

      Also, depending on your culture, if you get asked for updates, you can always forward that email chain to the inquirer and say something along the lines of, “This is the last I’ve heard of it.”

      (Big caveat is that obviously my office is very cavalier about cc-ing and forwarding emails, so this sort of thing is common for us.) Good luck though!

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      It sounds like you are being very indirect and trying to send signals without actually saying anything. As long as you keep your tone matter-of-fact, you can say most anything directly without coming across as hostile or aggressive. Such as:
      “Oh – that’s not actually part of what I do, so I won’t be able to take that on”
      “I’m not actually handling that – my role here is x”
      ” Jane, my understanding is that these things are just part of my role in unusual situations. It’s not something I can take on right now”
      “I think there’s some confusion – this isn’t on my plate”

      If she continues to push back, you keep repeating yourself. If you need to, you can approach your manager with something like, “I want to make sure I’m clear on what you expect of the person in my role. Jane asked me to do x, but I didn’t think that was part of my role, and I won’t be able to get to that unless I don’t do y. How would you like me to handle this?”

        1. AnotherFed*

          YOu mentioned that your manager at least expressed the feeling that you should do your job and coworker should do coworker’s job, so I’d circle back with them to make sure they still feel that way, then when coworker comes looking, say something like “I’m sorry, but boss X has told me not to work on any tasks outside of X scope because Priority Y and Z absolutely must be done.” If you feel like softening it a little, you could refer them to other coworkers.

          Or you could wear a headset and pretend to be on the phone whenever she comes looking for you. :)

    3. ella*

      I would take this to your boss. If she wants you to pitch in and help and counts it as “other duties as assigned,” well, then you know where you stand. But if she wants you to do your job and Jane to do hers, particularly if things are starting to fall through the cracks, I assume she wants to know that too so that she can take it up with Jane.

      1. Anonsie*

        I did that a long time ago when I was first unsure of which way I was expected to go on this. We have a web of managers, all but one of which have specifically instructed me to not spend time on these types of things if I don’t have the capacity, however they also consider it My Job to settle this with Jane directly. That’s where I’m having an issue. Even outright saying “X Managers want me to focus on my other work” just gets a response that what she needs done is important and needs to be done, too.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          She comes over, drops work on you, won’t take “no” for an answer however you phrase it, walks away. Nice. And because it’s all done verbally, there’s no record of any of it.

          I think maybe you need to take a half hour, keep doing your work and then send her an e-mail, looping in on CC whichever manager(s) has specifically told you in the past to not take these projects on and might have a solution for who Jane would be able to get some help from.

          “Hi Jane!
          After you came by this morning and told me that you had important work that needs to be done on your Spout Trajectory project, I reviewed the documents you left and then took a look at the projects currently on my plate. Unfortunately, my workload is such that I do not have time to assist you with this for the foreseeable future.
          I’ve CC’d Wakeen and perhaps if you do not know of someone else who may be able to assist you (Mary? Parsifal?), he might have someone in mind with trajectory experience that can provide the assistance you require.
          Best regards,
          Anonsie”

          Every single time she dumps on you, do something like this. Use the same manager if you have to each time so that they get an idea of how often this is occurring and what specific projects she’s trying to unload. She could be genuinely overloaded, she could be cherry-picking the best stuff for her skill set or passing off the most boring work, she could be slacking. Eventually, she will be broken of the habit. She’s getting away with it now partly because you’re letting her and partly because there’s no real oversight. What she is passive aggressively doing is setting you up to fail so that she looks like a star — and it has already happened that you’ve gotten in trouble.

          If you are to delegate something to her, do the opposite and e-mail before you speak to her:
          “Hi Jane!
          Due to some deadline constrictions [or whatever reason] on my current projects, Wakeen has asked me to pass the TeaCosy Inc. file off to you.
          I’ll be over shortly with the documents to brief you and get you started.
          Best regards,
          Anonsie” CC’d — Wakeen

          I don’t know where you sit, if you can see her desk from your position. Sending that e-mail will put her on alert (so she may try contacting someone to get out of it and head you off at the pass), but it will also alert Wakeen that you are following his instructions. I know they want you two to work it out amongst yourselves, but this is not a personal issue, it’s a work one. If Jane refuses to take work from you because she is too busy, then it’s going to have to be escalated because someone is going to have to decide which Thing That Needs To Be DONE is the most important one — and neither of you may senior enough to make that decision. If it turns out that she refused to take on the work you were told to assign to her, and knew that her projects were not as critical, then it’s going to blow back on her for a change. If she does refuse, then you’ve got every right to say “OK, well I’d better go and talk this over with Wakeen because he was very specific that it Needs To Be Done and I do not have bandwidth for it. This is a problem.” Then do it. If she comes along to say her piece, she can. If she sits at her desk, she does. Someone at that company must be tracking who’s got what project and what the deliverables are. If there is so much work there needs to be another person hired at your level, then that is another suggestion for Wakeen — “Gee, it seems like there’s been a lot of this happening recently… it would be nice to have someone around at least part time to assist us with these issues.” Or “In future when there’s a conflict like this, who do you suggest I go to get help from? May I ask Mary over in Building C?” Or perhaps there isn’t some sort of project planning software being used and that might be something you could do some research on and offer as another suggestion/investment for the company to improve workflow.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      Unless this person has any actual authority in assigning you work, take it to your boss. “Boss, I need some help balancing my workload. Jane keeps asking me to help on projects, but then seems to think that I’ve agreed to take on the entire project. Is this in line with your expectations for me in this role?”

  127. The IT Manager*

    I don’t think your boyfriend has any legal grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit if he’s fired for this. I do not think telling the business about boss and office systems is something that results in legal protection from retaliation. I’m not saying it’s not retaliation in the dictionary definition, but that kind of retaliation is not illegal.

  128. New Employee Blues?*

    I was just wondering when it’s normal to feel “settled” in a job.

    I’ve had my latest job since the beginning of January and sometimes I just feel like I’m a terrible employee. It’s my first job in the field I studied in and I’m still not feeling very confident about my abilities. Aside from a handful of tiny things, no one has taken me aside and said “Hey, you’re doing X Y and Z terribly!!!” I finish my probation in June and I’m just worried that they won’t keep me. How can I feel more comfortable in this role? I’m TERRIFIED of getting fired and having to look for another job after six months!!

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I don’t have advice, but I’ve been at my job for about 9 months, and I’m just now starting to feel really comfortable and confident. Just remember, if people seem happy with your work, they probably are!

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I think it totally depends on the job and your experience level. Alison has a post about this here: https://www.askamanager.org/2010/07/how-long-should-it-take-new-hire-to-get.html (and the comments are always helpful).

      For me, I think it takes around 3 months to feel comfortable and settled in a new job. I tend to pick things up pretty quickly, but there’s also a new workplace culture to get used to, there are things that don’t come up regularly or during training, so when they do come up, it’s like feeling new all over again…

    3. Blue Anne*

      I’ve been at my new job – my first real professional one that requires serious qualifications and stuff – for about 8 months and I still feel like I have no clue what I’m doing and oh god what if they find out?!

      The thing I’ve find useful is asking people for as much feedback as I can, and voicing my concerns if I think a piece of work isn’t up to snuff, because you know if someone is quietly thinking “OH MY GOD Blue Anne is so bad at this, why can’t she even do a simple bank rec!” they will jump at the chance to give the feedback. And then I would know what to work on. Surprisingly… most of the feedback I’ve gotten has actually been “You’re doing okay and it’s normal to feel like you’re crap at this, don’t worry.”

      1. Felicia*

        Are you me? I have also been at my first real professional job that requires actual qualifications and stuff for 8 months and i’m still sometimes terrified that they’ll somehow find out I suck and i’ll never feel like i know what i’m doing. But I think it a lot less often and i actually get great feedback. I’d say at roughly 4 months in I felt relatively comfortable for the most part.

    4. RandomName*

      I heard somewhere that it takes 18 months to feel comfortable at a new job.

      I know how you feel though. When I first started this job, it was a step up not only in terms of title, but department size, company size and pay. The people I came in to manage are all much older than I am and have been with the company 15+ years. It was hard to adjust and I definitely had imposter syndrome.

      My boss isn’t good about giving feedback, so I assumed the worst. I kept feeling like every mistake I made was so catestrophic, even though they were typical when getting acclimated to a new job. So about 4 months in I emailed my boss to ask if he could set aside some time within the next week or two so we could have a discussion about my performance and if he had any concerns or suggestions for improvement (I emailed vs. going to him because I wanted to give him time to check his schedule/gather his thoughts). So we met and it was really reassuring. No concerns raised and I knew that he and others I worked with thought I was doing a good job.

      So just ask your boss for some informal feedback about how you’ve been doing so far. if you get good feedback, you’ll feel better; if you get some suggestions for improvement, you’ll know what you need to get better at. In my experience, the superstars are always questioning themselves and don’t feel like they’re doing enough, and the people who need the most improvement think they’re doing stellar work. I think in general managers don’t give enough positive feedback.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d say at least 6 months to a year.
      If you are worried about your probation period, why not schedule a meeting with the boss and ask her? “I really like my job here and I would like to complete my probationary period in good standing. Can we talk about what areas I should be focusing on NOW to help insure a good outcome in June?”

  129. AnonPi*

    I’m beginning to wonder if I’m ever gonna find another job. My last two interviews went no where – the one that I was a ‘shoe-in’ for I didn’t even get to the second interview. And two more rejections this week, one of which I know I was a solid candidate for. I’m so frustrated with job hunting and my current job is so miserable that I’m at my wits end.

    1. Malissa*

      Well at least you’re getting rejections. That’s better then doing interviews and never hearing anything again.
      Tell yourself the right opportunity just hasn’t come along yet. There must be something wrong with those other jobs if they didn’t hire you. ;)

      1. Trixie*

        Interviews are a good sign that your materials are getting your foot in the door. If second interviews aren’t happening, it might be a matter of practicing more to create that strong in-person experience. If you search interviews in the AAM archives, I know AAM has addressed this before.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Ugh, that’s so hard to go through. Job hunting definitely can be demoralizing especially when it’s on top of a miserable job. I hope you find something soon!

  130. Sascha*

    I’m applying for an assistant director of technology job at my university. It’s for the development department. The job posting states it requires 3 years of experience with Random Development Software. Well I have about 1-2 years of end user experience with this software…from 13 years ago, when I temped in various offices at a nonprofit that used it extensively. They also want reporting and general IT project management experience and skills, which I have in abundance in my current position.

    I’d like to mention I’ve used this software before, but I’m not sure how or where to bring it up. I no longer include those temp positions on my resume, because they were so long ago, and it was just general receptionist work I did during college (and some of it was for my dad!). I’d like to focus on the fact that I have a lot of good, current experience in the other areas they are wanting, as well as just good technical aptitude in general, so it would be pretty easy for me to get up to speed on this particular software. Do I mention it in the cover letter? Wait and see if I get an interview? Suggestions are most appreciated!

    1. Sammy J*

      I know it seems like a good idea to mention the experience but because it was so long ago and was not actually from the developer end (it was from the user end, correct?), I don’t think it will help you in anyway to mention it. In fact, mentioning it in this capacity might only serve to highlight your inexperience which they might have overlooked otherwise.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I would bring it up – just be sure you aren’t accidentlaly implying that you are currently an expert on the software which no doubt, has changed. You might say “I used this software for a few years at x job. That was a long time ago, and I’m sure there have been a lot of updates by now, but I do understand the concepts behind how it works such as (pulling queries, tracking contacts, etc.). While it’s a complicated piece of software, I learned it quickly the first time around, and I’m confident I could do that again and get up to speed fast”.
      I wouldn’t worry too much about it – everyone wants someone who has used their particular software before because that’s just easier, but there are so many different ones that you can’t often find someone who is BOTH a good fit and has experience with a particular development program.

    3. CAA*

      By “development”, I’m assuming you mean fundraising, not software programming.

      I would go ahead and add the temp jobs where you used this software to your resume in a section labeled “Other Experience”, and I’d also mention it in the cover letter.

    4. Graciosa*

      The question I have is how much similarity is there between the software version of 13 years ago and the one today. Given some software life cycles, this could be a few products (not just versions, but products) in the past.

      For example, I would be nervous about claiming experience in Windows if the current version is 8 and my last experience was XP.

    1. Camellia*

      Sorry to hear that. May the Job Angel find you the perfect one for outstanding pay and benefits!

    2. Buu*

      oh that’s crappy but on the bright side you won’t have to sneak off work for interviews and can dedicate time to doing it right. Make a list of stuff you wanna get done in your search!
      Have you:
      -Updated your resume?
      – Looked into alternative job search routes.
      -Let you friends and contacts know you are looking?
      -Updated your linkedin?

      Good luck!

  132. Another Rat Racer*

    Any tips for bringing a toddler on an extended business trip? Will be in London for 2 months, company is paying for child and caregiver to travel with me so logistics are taken care of. Interested in tips from anyone who has done the same, specifically balancing family time with a hectic schedule and anything that might make things easier for child, caregiver, and myself to adjust.

    1. thisisit*

      not for a business trip, but traveled with young kids – the jet lag is killer on them the first week. so prep yourself for possibly not sleeping much either.
      otherwise, london is fantastic for kids! enjoy!

      1. Another Rat Racer*

        Great point! We have done a few international trips, but all holidays. Haven’t dealt with baby jet lag while having to be in the office at 8am!

    2. AnotherFed*

      Bring a supply of favorite foods, especially if the toddler can be finicky – stores sell all the basic ingredients, but you won’t be able to easily get Kraft mac-n-cheese or Hershey’s candy, or a favorite brand of sugar cereal, crackers, cookies, etc. When we moved over there, I was a lot older, but even so, sometimes a really familiar meal can go a long, long way to helping a kid cope with moving half way across the world!

        1. thisisit*

          seriously! i think it’s actually illegal to bring hersheys here.

          you can find mac n cheese and the like, but american cereals can be tough. anything that’s brand-specific you should def bring.

          i think there are tourist passes and the like for families for transport, tourist sites, etc. def check those out too.

        2. AnotherFed*

          Hersheys is just an example – the biggies to me were the lack of Oreos, Velveeta, and Dr. Pepper! I was also old enough to get it and be generally expected to just suck it up and deal with the fact that we couldn’t get some things and had to find new favorites, but that’s a lot harder with a toddler! Now I’ve been back here for years, but still miss IrnBru and prawn potato chips!

          1. thisisit*

            the only things i have trouble finding in ireland (s0 london is even easier) are fritos and tortilla chips (but doritos are everywhere), and some sugary cereals (eg, capn crunch). they exist, but hard to find. as far as i know, there are no goldfish crackers here (not sure about london). that has made many an american college student sad.

            1. dooce*

              Do Americans really find it so hard to survive without doritos and cereal for a few weeks?

              1. Katie the Fed*

                Of course not. But sometimes if you’re in a really foreign place (you know, not Western Europe or similar) you start to want some familiar comforts. I would have given my left arm for some peanut butter after a month in Beijing.

                1. thisisit*

                  i lived in mongolia for a year. i never usually ate sugary cereal, but imported foods would be so irregular that whenever you saw something from home in the market, you’d buy it all up. in my case, i got fixated on lucky charms – bought 6 boxes once. it becomes such a habit too – first trip to the grocery store when i returned to the US i put 3 boxes of lucky charms in my cart before i remembered i don’t actually eat it…

    3. Another Rat Racer*

      Thanks for all the tips! I am actually based in Asia and currently travel to London quarterly so prepared for any food issues:) I was worried more about carving out time for family, especially since business trips typically mean 12 hour days and lots of dinners/drinks. Not sure if expectations for this kind of longer stay vs a 1-2 week trip would be different?

      1. thisisit*

        might be worth asking others in your org about expectations? 2 months is both a long time and not that long… i assume if you can bring fam with, they expect you to make time to see them…?

  133. IT Kat*

    What would be a diplomatic way to ask for comp time for working a weekend when you are exempt?

    As background: I am classified exempt and usually work 40 hours/week. We are moving a datacenter coming up in a couple of weeks, and it will require afterhours work from Friday 5pm through Sunday evening, according to my boss.

    Considering I will be working 40 hours M-F the week before and after, I’d like to ask for comp time or flex time in order to help with the working for two weeks without a day off feeling, but I don’t know how best to ask.

    1. fposte*

      “Do we ever offer comp time? I’d really like to get a couple days break after being in here on Saturday and Sunday after a full work week–would that be possible?”

      1. IT Kat*

        I guess I was overthinking it, that would likely work. :)

        When in doubt, I need to remember the KISS theory.

  134. NewAnon*

    In slight panic mode here.

    I was given a verbal offer over the phone this morning and negotiation began. I requested a very slight salary raise and the supervisor said they would check with HR and get back to me this week.

    A couple hours ago, I received an automated response from the job site saying I wasn’t selected for the interview (I was. I interviewed twice). Twenty minutes after that message, I received what seemed to be a handwritten e-mail, but not signed by anyone, still the job site, saying they had a great time interviewing me but I was not selected for the position.

    I am legit about ready to cry! I called the interview and explained the situation on her voicemail, and also popped off an e-mail to the job site, but I don’t know if they just went down the list and popped off the wrong e-mail or my negotiation rescinded the entire offer.

    Insights?

    1. IT Kat*

      It sounds like maybe their system had an issue and maybe fired off emails accidentally? Very possible if they use some sort of resume tracking or processing system.

      Give it a couple of days (since it’s a Friday) and see if they respond to the voicemail and/or the email you sent. The letter AAM got not too long ago aside, it’s really rare for an outright rejection just because you tried to negotiate!

    2. Katie the Fed*

      It may be that they were considering you for two positions in the same company, so you’re getting a rejection from one department while the other is still working with HR.

      I mean, I got a phone call from someone offering me a job in my own agency, 5 months after I started in a different office there. True story. Resumes get passed around sometimes.

      I wouldn’t freak out yet – just keep working with the supervisor on it.

          2. Shell*

            Glad to see you, Jamie! (And you totally deserve a tiara. A tiara that looks like a flower crown made of sparkly gems.)

    2. variety*

      I use initials frequently so get Mr. sometimes. Mrs. initials would be my mother-in-law.

  137. Wannebe EdTech*

    I got some interesting news, if people remember about the terrible job counsellor, I decided to drop them. Never again shall I be prompted to declare I have minor in something I don’t have ever again on a resume I leave to rot ever again.

    And I have been an opportunity to have tuition paid for getting a masters. Which is great considering all the job openings require 3-5 years experience or a masters in my area. So I need to justify it and figure out who would be a good reference for letters.

    Anyone have tips on selecting a good reference and just general grad school tips?

  138. Blue Anne*

    I think I might need a reality check.

    One part of my job is going out to client sites to work with them during their stock counts. Sometimes they’re on holidays or weekends and when this is the case our manager (who is really nice, great at his job, and fantastic to work with) asks for volunteers. There is a team of seven of us who do this, we all know it’s part of the job and everyone is good about pitching in.

    A month ago, we had a bad situation. On Friday afternoon, a client told us that they would be doing their stock count bright and early Saturday morning. It turned out that everyone in our team had plans that would have to be cancelled to do this, so our manager had to do it himself, the very next day, 7 AM on a Saturday. I feel for the guy. It sucked.

    But, next thing I know, he sent an email around with a stock count “on call” rota schedule. There would be a couple of us on call every weekend, and if that interfered with our plans, it would be our own responsibility to get cover. This made me raise my eyebrow a little… we’re accountants, not doctors, firefighters or sysadmins. But OK. I could get on board with this idea. But… not only were most of us scheduled to be on call for more than half the weekends, but the email was really abrupt and didn’t even say anything along the lines of “We’re going to try this”. It was so uninformative I thought I must’ve missed an explanation email, but nope.

    So I sent back…

    “I’m a little surprised by this email, as it’s the first I’ve heard about being ‘on call’ for weekends. I understand that the situation we have this weekend isn’t great, but I feel like it’s more a function of the late notice than people being unwilling to volunteer.
    I’m happy to do weekend stock takes when I don’t have plans, but I’m a little worried about being ‘on call’ over the weekend so frequently, especially without having had any chance to discuss how this is being handled. Is there any room to discuss this?”

    Long story short, it worked out. Other people pushed back too and we’re not going to do the “on-call” thing. We just got a little reminder that people need to be volunteering sometimes and this is something we’ll be assessed on in performance reviews. Which is totally fine.

    BUT.

    I had my performance review this week, and overall it was pretty great. Except that this email I sent got mentioned! I was told that they wouldn’t put anything in writing on my review, but I should be more careful with my tone, help them understand the situation from my point of view, text can be misinterpreted…. basically, the message was “You came across as aggressive and you need to watch it.”

    I’m a little annoyed, I have to say. I sat on that email for an hour and then re-edited it to tone it down before sending it. I thought it was pretty reasonable. But apparently it came across as aggressive enough to be passed around and showed to the people doing my performance review. I feel like I’m having my knuckles rapped for pushing back on a work/life balance thing.

    Ugh.

    Anyone have any input? Was I being overly aggressive?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      OK, I’m going to be completely honest here:

      I do think it comes across a little rougher/ruder than you intended. From the boss’s perspective – there was a problem, he implemented a solution. And the solution sounds fairly reasonable. If there are usually enough volunteers then you don’t have to worry about the on-call roster. But I also see it from your perspective – if you’re on call then you feel like you can’t make plans.

      I think this might have been better discussed in person. Here’s why:

      When you say “I’m a little surprised” – that reads like “Whoa buddy, you’re out of line!”
      and “as it’s the first I’ve heard” – well, so what? Boss doesn’t need your approval before changing things. Yes, it would be NICE, but the way you’re phrasing it you seem to think he needs your approval. At least, that’s how it reads.

      So from that first line the reader is already on the defensive, and that’s going to make him less receptive to the rest of your reasonable comments. It was a bad start to the email.

      I probably would have approached it in person, and asked about it instead of arguing it. “Hey, bossman, can I ask what prompted the change? A few of us are worried that it’s going to really limit our abilities to make plans, and I’m wondering if there might be any room for discussion on other alternatives? BTW, we REALLY appreciate you covering down on that Saturday last month. Thank you.”

      1. Jamie*

        Interesting as I read “I’m a little surprised” as a neutral “huh? This is new.”

        And I disagree that due to typical level of volunteers they may not have to worry about it. Once you institue an on-call roster people aren’t going to volunteer on the days they aren’t on call. Because if I’m scheduled to be on call the 2nd and 4th weekends of the month I’m not going to risk raising my hand for the 1st or 3rd because for all I know I’m going to have to work the next weekend as well.

        I can’t see anyone volunteering on a non-call weekend except in rare circumstances.

        Maybe I’m missing something but I really don’t understand why this is ever a last minute thing and not pre-scheduled which would eliminate the whole problem.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I totally agree about the weirdness of the last-minute thing. Fix that and you have no issue.

          And you’re probably right about no more volunteers if it goes to a roster. But his solution wasn’t really the worst idea; it just might have been a little much if this was the first time it’s ever been a problem. It seems like too much solution for the size of the problem.

          1. Jamie*

            Too much solution for the problem, I like the way you put that.

            I personally would never rely on volunteers as a regular thing, I need things scheduled – I just think it’s crazy to expect people to keep 2 weekends a month open in case they may be called so they have to plan around that…when none of this stuff is responding to unforeseen emergencies.

            Client A needs people Saturday 1 – Katie and Jamie. Client B needs people Saturday 2 – Blue Ann and fposte. We know when we’re working and when we can extemporaneously jump on a red eye to Vegas Friday night because we’re feeling wild and dying to eat some complimentary jumbo shrimp while playing roulette with last years merit bonus and then investing our winnings in a Van Halen cover band.

            Or something less weird.

            1. Blue Anne*

              Nope, nope, that’s an excellent description of what auditors do on the weekends. ;)

              Incidentally, I’m actually finding the dissonance between my work and personal life hilarious. I’m poly, bi, had pink hair right up until I got past my telephone interview, often spend weekends hitting people with swords and/or at crazy sexy parties tying people up with my three honeys. But my co-workers think I’m the most boring person alive. Old (they’re straight out of college, I’m 26!), married, Christian (and American so probably a fundie), fuzzy brown hair and no makeup, mostly wear grey cardigans and granny shoes, drink very little, don’t watch TV… some of them have called me “Mom” once or twice. I am totally fine with that but find it gut-bustingly funny.

      2. Blue Anne*

        Darn, website ate my first attempt at this reply!

        Thank you for your honesty! I really appreciate it. I do think you’re right that it would have been better discussed in person, or on the phone.

        The “I’m a little surprised” and “first I’ve heard” were basically about the total lack of any explanation. Usually this manager is great about explaining things, keeping people in the loop, whatever, but this time pretty much the entire email was “Here’s the on-call schedule, I’ll send you updates monthly.” It really made me think that I’d missed another email or a meeting, or something.

        But, I can see how “it’s the first I’ve heard” in particular could come across as rude if someone were reading it cold. Definitely better to take it off the computer, good suggestion.

    2. Jamie*

      What you sent was what you have here in italics? I don’t think it’s aggressive at all.

      I don’t understand your scheduling, though. We have an external accounting firm present during twice yearly physical inventory and we’re on their calendar already for next July. This isn’t an emergency thing that crops up – am I misunderstanding? Why can’t your clients schedule selected times and you would all know in advance who is assigned and when.

      Not your question, I know, but just curious.

      And ime sometimes “tone” and “aggressive” is code for having a question someone didn’t want to answer or a valid opinion someone didn’t want to hear. Not always, but sometimes.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Usually, we do know well in advance. This mess-up was totally on the client notifying is super late. I think it might have been a cycle count, in which case they’d be smaller ones getting done more often, and maybe with less notice – but certainly not less than a day!

        1. Jamie*

          Wow – you guys go out for cycle counts? I have my people cycle counting daily, I bet our accountants are glad we don’t want them hear for that!

          It seems like scheduling in advance is the key to all of this. Sounds like it’s a one off, boss was super annoyed/pissed because he was inconvenienced and over reacted by trying to institute draconian policy for something easily solved with a calendar and a pencil. And then annoyed with you because you said it out loud and you were right.

          I’m with fposte – I wouldn’t change a damn thing about my phrasing either. And I was fine with your first paragraph.

          1. Blue Anne*

            I think it’s pretty unusual – I haven’t come across a client yet where we do this – but I know there are some. I’m doing my time with the Big 4 right now so presumably we’ve got some sort of publicly-traded client who produces nuclear kittens deep in the bowels of London or something and needs crazy amounts of audit oversight.

            Thanks for your input Jamie, much appreciated. :)

            1. RandomName*

              Big 4…I feel for you. I did time at one myself. Inventory counts are rough, but we had a schedule of people on call in our office for the counts we were doing for other offices and that worked out well. But we also had it so that only interns, first year, and second year staff were on that rotation. Third year staff and above were exempt (PwC makes you work as a staff for 3 years before promotion; at least, in our market they did).

              One year, a person from our office got to go to Hawaii to do a 3-hour cycle count…and for the same client, but different component unit, another person had to go to a rural part of Canada (one hotel in the town) in January for a wall-to-wall inventory.

              1. Blue Anne*

                Yeah, it’s the same situation here – I’m a first-year. I think all the firms do the 3 years here, but it’s linked to how long it takes to qualify with ICAS/ICAEW. Apparently next year if we do counts on Saturdays we get the day back as holiday! Luxury. ;) I actually wouldn’t mind an on-call rota if it wasn’t, you know, the majority of weekends… but I do think they’re more common in the American offices than the UK ones. (The manager in question is over on secondment from America, as it happens.)

                The furthest I’ve had to go for a count is only a couple hours on the train, but if it was Hawaii, I’m not sure I’d mind…

    3. fposte*

      It doesn’t read too aggressive to me at all. I thought it was rather impressively tactfully phrased, in fact. I think your surprise at the abruptness of the issuing of the plan was probably not that relevant, and I could probably tweak the message to make it outright mealy-mouthed (I’d start by dropping the first paragraph entirely, in case you’re wondering), but honestly, I don’t think that’s the real issue. I think it was that you pushed back and the plan therefore didn’t happen, and they’re annoyed. (I also don’t get why they couldn’t just fix the frequency part, but that’s just me.)

      I’d make a point of visibly volunteering for the weekend work as soon as you can, and to be honest, I wouldn’t change how I phrased a damn thing.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      Oh geez, I usually agree with Jamie and Fposte – gahh!

      This is a good example of why email can be a bad mode of communication. People read different things into it. For me it’s all about the first sentence, it just rubs me the wrong way a little. I’ll bet if you had dropped that it would have been fine.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah, I think fposte’s note about dropping the first paragraph entirely is a good one.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. The only reason it was mentioned is that it was right before your annual review so it was fresh in his mind. He’ll forget about it in a month. It really wasn’t terrible, I just wanted to try to explain why it could be read that way. I’ve sent my share of terse emails in my day :)

          1. Blue Anne*

            Yeah – I’m not too worried. The two things that do bug me a bit are 1. the real possibility that this is what I should expect when trying to preserve work/life balance at this enormous corporate behemoth and 2. the fact that the manager who I sent this email to isn’t the same as the manager who was doing my performance review! Apparently this was a big enough deal that someone else brought it up to the person responsible for my performance reviews.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              It’s probably the other way around – the one doing your performance review asked the other manager for input – what you’re doing well, what you could work on, etc. And sometimes it’s hard to give people specifics on what to work one, but in this case they had an easy example from just a few weeks ago. We are often way biased toward things that happened recently when doing performance reviews.

              I hate annual reviews. Everyone does.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Katie, we can be on The Other Side together. :)

        Blue Anne, I had Katie’s read of the email. Since fposte, Jamie, Katie and I often see things the same way that means: dunno. I guess it means that in person was the best choice? That you aren’t crazy? That your boss might not be crazy for reading it the way he did either?

        Feelings were high for everyone because of your customer’s last minute needs. I wish that hadn’t been brought up in your performance review because rehashing an email written politely when feelings were high … I don’t think that belongs highlighted in a review that covers an entire year/career progression.

        1. Blue Anne*

          Thanks for chipping in, I’m always interested to read your comments.

          I think you’re right on all three counts there. I don’t think either of us were crazy, even though we disagreed. Just a cruddy situation, really.

          I’m definitely going to deal with this sort of issue in person if it comes up again.

          1. Shell*

            For what it’s worth, I’m on Katie’s side here…but I can also say that in the moment, I would’ve sent the entire email as-is because I was that ticked off.

            So yeah, I definitely think this would’ve been better verbally. At the very least, there’s no written evidence afterwards :P

    5. acmx*

      I agree with Katie. It’s a little aggressive to be directed at your manager.
      He was also very nice in performing the count so no one had to cancel their plans or make his team figure out who had to cancel plans. I’m sure he gave up/altered his plans to do the count that his team should have done even if it was sleeping in. Also, the rotating schedule is a good way to ensure that the next time this happens, someone is available to cover.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        I thought it was a little aggressive, too, but I can’t help wondering that if a man on the team had sent it if it would be interpreted the same way.

        I also think you’re correct in that the manager thought up this rota as a knee-jerk reaction to his being the one who had to cover the emergency. I don’t know if he’s regularly one of the volunteers (I suspect not) but I can see how in this case being The Boss and having to take one for the team would make him a bit shirty. There was a post here a few days ago about getting buy-in from teams on unpopular decisions:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2015/03/how-to-get-buy-in-from-your-staff-on-tough-decisions.html

        1. Blue Anne*

          >I thought it was a little aggressive, too, but I can’t help wondering that if a man on the team had sent it if it would be interpreted the same way.

          This thought did flash across my mind, honestly, but I’m trying not to think about it too hard.

    6. Lucy Eleanor Moderatz*

      The aggressive part to me was quoting “on call.” I know it’s a relatively new concept to accountants, but lots of jobs have on call shifts, and by quoting the phrase, you’re othering it and adding in a disdainful tone that you probably didn’t mean to.

  139. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Thought you guys would like this story from last month.

    So I’m in the kitchen at the coffee pot and say hello to one of our folks. (I’m the boss’s boss in the set up.) This woman is always super upbeat, friendly, cheerful, chatty chatty chatty nearly-to-a-fault, until you get to know her and realize it’s all genuine. Anyway, she says “hello” with just a weak smile and, woah, I put my coffee cup down.

    I ask her what’s wrong and she says that work she is doing for Important Client that is dragging her down. Now I’m concerned because Important Client is Important, and also a nightmare of detail, and a $$ suck because we get stuck with expensive redos if the slightest thing goes wrong. I put on my Very Calm Face and ask a few gentle, probing questions (ready to panic and get her boss to pull somebody else into the work instead).

    What happens next? Turns out she was doing brilliant work. The more questions I asked her, the more impressed I was with the strategy she was employing to control the customer, streamline the work, and minimize any errors. This client is SO unusual and difficult, no one could have taught her that strategy. She came up with it on her own.

    After telling her how much I appreciated her, a couple (good) domino things happened next, including our creating a position for her so we could offer customers a service we’ve been wanting to offer for a long time. We hadn’t done this previously because we didn’t have anyone available that we thought could manage the flow/process/customers expectations.

    That was so serendipitous for both of us to have that chance chat wasn’t it? And smart of her to just tell me what was going on rather than trying to predict what I wanted to hear. (I get that a lot. A lot of people guess what I want to hear, tell me that, and then so much pullllllllllling to get to actual what’s going on.)

    I am pretty good about chatting people up informally already but I’m going to double up on that, I think.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh that’s so great! I love when the boss’s boss stops in to check with the worker bees, and when it goes as well as this. Good on you for taking care of your good people :)

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      That’s a great example of why people on AAM (and hopefully in real life too) think you’re pretty damn awesome Wakeen’s Teapots.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Eh, like I always say, it’s in our self interest.

      The employee is the impressive one in the story because she just answered my questions. I understand that it’s natural for most people (who aren’t my direct reports) to tell me what they think I want to hear, but on my end, that’s frustrating. If I ask a specific question, I don’t want “it’s a little challenging but, we have it under control, it’ll be fine”. I default do not believe anybody who says that unless they have a track record with me of not making empty promises.

      So, good match! She’s young. Been with us about a year. We’re her first or second job, and now we get to launch this New Thing because I’m confident she’ll talk back to us re what exactly is going on so we can make adjustments as we proceed.

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        I really love this kind of win-win story, especially when it involves someone being straightforward about a situation. The older I get the more frustrated I get with pressure to always put a happy face (“oh, a few problems, but we’ll handle it!”) on things. I understand that outright negativity isn’t good, but sometimes too much “it’s fine!” can work against problem-solving just as much as too much bitching can.

  140. Anonyby*

    Okay, so I’ve been meaning to ask this for a few weeks now, and keep forgetting until I see the Saturday open thread!

    Any tips for how to research local small business laws and other information for starting up? I’m thinking of starting up a small business related to one of my hobbies, and while I know the big federal laws, it’s the state-and-down stuff that I don’t even know where to begin.

    And just for reference… The soonest I could see myself actually starting this up is still at least two years from now. I’m not rushing in at all!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Check your community college – they sometimes have classes on starting businesses, and it’s a good way to network with other local business owners.

    2. AnotherFed*

      This might be more helpful once you’ve set your business up, but the Small Business Development Centers provide lots of low-cost or free business development help in everything from putting together a business plan to getting financials in order to doing small scale manufacturing.

    3. it happens*

      Also check with your local library. Librarians know everything. And (in cities, at least) frequently have classes on starting up a business.

  141. One of those librarians*

    (Anoning myself for this question) I’ve ended up in the good but weird position of having three interviews in three states next week. This is good, because yay interviews, but also complicated (the travel!)

    Anyone have tips on making the most of my downtime? (4 hour drive to the first interview, train to the second one, cross-country plane to the last one, two hotel nights, otherwise with family.) I’ve already done the logical things like pack nice bath stuff for the two hotel rooms involved, know my airline’s policies for upgrades, etc. I have knitting and reliably good things to watch on the iPad, a battery charger, etc.

    They’re very different jobs in a lot of ways, so I don’t anticipate difficulty keeping things straight/being enthusiastic (they’re all jobs I’d like a lot, just different directions) but I want to be my best self at each interview.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I like to visit random and oddly specific museums. Like, in Frederick, Maryland – the Museum of Civil War Medicine. Those places are great, and if you’re in different states you’re bound to find some fun local attractions like that.

      I also like to eat, so there’s that. I would go out and try some interesting food.

    2. BRR*

      I would check trip advisor to see the best rated local attractions. I’d also figure out when you need rest and when you can site see. Don’t’ forget to build in a practice trip to the interview site if you need it.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      “like pack nice bath stuff for the two hotel rooms involved”
      I don’t know if you just mean your favourite shower gel/shampoo so you don’t have to use the amenities or if you really like to have a bath… so I’m going to assume it’s the second. When they check you in, be sure to ask if the room has a bathtub, I’ve noticed that some hotels are renovating to remove their bathtubs. Also, I bought a round flat rubber sink stopper thing because I kept finding that the stoppers in the tubs were broken or removed. Most people prefer to shower, which explains both but after a long hard day of travel, I much prefer a good soak to relax. YMMV.
      A friend of mine likes to pack a nice candle and use that for a bit to get the hotel room smell out of the air.

      As for what to do when you’re there, depends on where you’re going. For the car trip, you should definitely find something at about the half way mark to do so you can stretch your legs — lunch? Park? Restaurant? Attraction? World’s Largest Ball of Twine?

      1. One of those librarians*

        The second! I hadn’t thought of packing the stopper (I use one at home, so it’s easy), but that’s a great tip.

        My bath stuff includes some small fizzy bath bombs, plus some cubes of sugar scrub – they travel well, and they make such a difference after flying and dry hotel air. Also shampoo bars and my own soap, because my skin throws fits at a lot of commercial soaps, and who needs that before an interview.

        I can’t stop on the way to the first interview due to timing, but I’ll be seeing a friend after. And friends re: the plane trip. I’ve got some chronic health stuff, so I want to be careful not to over-exert myself (the last interview, in particular, may involve a bit of walking) but I’m hoping to get to see a bit of the second and third places (the first is near where I went to college, so I’m more familiar with the area.)

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          I’ve been burned more than once on the no tub/broken stopper thing. I’ve macgyvered a stopper from plastic shopping bags a few times!

          I don’t know about you but I need to stop at around the two hour mark in a car, and I do mean need. When I’ve gone to visit friends that are 4 hours’ drive away, there is a rest stop with a McDonald’s that I usually pull in to for enough time to use the facilities and get a snack/drink. I totally get that on the way there you’ll be in a time-crunch, but knowing where there are places to make a quick stop is always useful.

          1. One of those librarians*

            It’s a drive I’ve done a lot, that bit, so I know just where the two plausible rest stops are.

            (I usually want to stop too, just it’s going to be more ‘run in, grab coffee, stretch legs’ than anything that takes more time.)

            I’m very glad I invested in the new phone holder and radio transmitter from the phone to the radio, though – I’d been sort of delaying, and finally got them a couple of months ago, and it makes such a difference to driving and listening to things I want.

            1. Dynamic Beige*

              Another thing for long drives is podcasts/books on CD/audiobooks in general. Someone I know moved to a remote area and is now often in the car doing long drives and swears by them. I find that for doing stuff outside like gardening, I can do two things at once, listen to Really Popular Business Book and get the grass cut.

  142. Whippers*

    OK so I have a very specific issue at work which is bugging the hell out of me but which is so confusing and detailed that there are very few people I can discuss it with.

    I work for a branch of a large national company which has all its accounting services centralised. The accounts are posted by the accounts team onto a system which I can access and reports are sent out every month. My direct manager finds it difficult to interpret the system and the reports so she has me put all this information onto a spreadsheet which she finds easier to read. Which is fine. However, she doesn’t like the fact that accounts do strange things with the accounts each month, like moving expenses between codes or sometimes they make mistakes in one month which are then rectified in the following month. So, she wants me to put the expenses on the spreadsheets as they should have occurred in that month; for example if $500 was taken out by mistake one month and then put in the next month, she doesn’t want this recorded on my spreadsheet at all, wheras on the accounts system, it would record this going out and coming back in.

    This makes the whole thing very confusing because I am essentailly duplicating information but making some changes, which makes it very difficult to double check if I want to go back at a later date as I have two different sets of accounts. What worries me is that my spreadhseet is not going to be accurate because of the difficulty in checking it, but she uses it instead of the offical accounts. I have tried explaining this to her but she doesn’t seem to understand what I mean. Does anybody have any suggestions for making this simpler or making this work in some way?

    1. RandomName*

      What is the set up of this spreadsheet? What in your header columns and what’s in your rows? For example, are your header columns the account numbers and the rows the months? Or is there a different spreadsheet for each month?

      1. RandomName*

        Without knowing the setup, could you make a summary spreadsheet with formulas that are linked to the original worksheet(s)? This way you could keep the original data intact, but still have it summarized in a way that is useful for your boss. Your check on the summary would be that the running YTD total for each account matches each account total on the YTD system report.

        1. Whippers*

          Yeah the set up of the spreadsheet is monthly columns as headers and the accounts codes/types of expenditure as rows. She also wants an individual breakdown of all the expenses on the spreadsheet. So for example, if there was $100 for food and drink, she want a breakdown of the individual purchases, which makes the spreadsheet very complicated over the course of a year.

          What has made this even more complicated for me is that the person who set the budget last year allocated large amounts of money to the wrong codes, so when the centralised account reports come out each month I will often have to go through and change the codes, although this won’t be changed until the following month by our accounts team. According to my manager’s logic, the spreadsheet should look as though this expense was never allocated to the wrong code.

          Can you explain more about you mean about doing a summary spreadsheet with formulas linked to the original worksheet? How would that work?

          1. Whippers*

            Do you think just keeping a record of all the changes I’ve made to the original accounts would work? It would still make it complicated to check but at least I would know what changes I’d made each month and could calculate it accordingly.

            2. RandomName*

              You could do that but using formulas in a summary worksheet will serve both purposes: getting your boss the information she needs and helping you see where you made changes. I’m in my phone now, but when I get back to a computer later today, I’ll detail more what I mean about using formulas in a summary spreadsheet that link to your original data. Do you know how to use vlookups in Excel?

                1. RandomName*

                  Okay, so this is what I’m thinking. You have a workbook with 3 tabs:
                  Tab 1 – Summary
                  Tab 2 – Original
                  Tab 3 – Adjustments

                  Let’s start with the “Original” tab. This is what you get from your system. The information is in the rows and columns as follows (I’m trying to show this as it would be in Excel, but I’m not sure how it will end up formatting once I post the comment. Letters at the top represent the columns, numbers on the side represent the rows):
                  B C D
                  1 Jan. Feb. Total
                  2 Salaries 100,000 98,000 198,000
                  3 Office Supplies 10,000 17,000 27,000
                  4 Computer Expenses 10,000 5,000 15,000
                  5 Repairs 35,000 50,000 85,000
                  Total 155,000 170,000 325,000

                  So then you have your Adjustments tab:
                  B C D
                  1 Jan. Feb. Reason
                  2 Salaries 0 8,000 (1)
                  3 Office Supplies (5,000) 5,000 (2)
                  4 Computer Expenses 5,000 (5,000) (3)
                  5 Repairs (15,000) 15,000 (4)
                  Total 15,000 23,000
                  Reason key:
                  (1) Salaries not accrued in February
                  (2) $5,000 of Computer Expenses incorrectly recorded to Office Supplies in January, corrected by Accountants in February
                  (3) $5,000 of Computer Expenses incorrectly recorded to Office Supplies in January, corrected by Accountants in February
                  (4) $15,000 of building construction in progress (fixed asset) incorrectly accrued to Repairs in January, accrual reversed in February and properly coded to CIP (fixed assets)

                  Now you will use the summary sheet. The easiest way to get all the Original tab’s numbers is to use a VLOOKUP. So like the Original tab, your Summary tab will have the account codes or account names in Column A (beginning in A2), and column headers for each month beginning in Column B.

                  So your VLOOKUP for cell B2 (January Salaries) would be:
                  =VLOOKUP($A2,Original!$A$1:$D$5,2,FALSE) – since there are no adjustments to this amount in January, it stays as is. This formula can be copied down to all the January numbers. Note that you would change $A$1:$D$5 in the formula to encompass the entire range of your Original data set for your purposes. In my example, this covers the whole range.

                  To this formula, you would add a + at the end and then click on the cell or cells in your Adjustments tab to pick up on any modifications. So your formula in cell B3 (January Office Supplies) would be:
                  =VLOOKUP($A3,Original!$A$1:$D$5,2,FALSE)+Adjustments!B3

                  Below are the other cell’s formulas so you can try it in your own spreadsheet. In each I started with the VLOOKUP that I copied down from each column (note that in Column B, the number in the formula after the data range is 2, and in Column C it’s a 3. This is because for Column B I want the data in the second column of that data set, January’s data. For Column C I want the data in the 3rd column of the data set I’m looking up, or February’s data):
                  B4: =VLOOKUP($A4,Original!$A$1:$D$5,2,FALSE)+Adjustments!B4
                  B5: =VLOOKUP($A5,Original!$A$1:$D$5,2,FALSE)+Adjustments!B5
                  C2: =VLOOKUP($A2,Original!$A$1:$D$5,3,FALSE)+Adjustments!C2
                  C3: =VLOOKUP($A3,Original!$A$1:$D$5,3,FALSE)+Adjustments!C3
                  C4: =VLOOKUP($A4,Original!$A$1:$D$5,3,FALSE)+Adjustments!C4
                  C5: =VLOOKUP($A5,Original!$A$1:$D$5,3,FALSE)+Adjustments!C5

                  As you can see it’s still going to be an manual process, but at least you can see what your original data looks like, and what you’re adding or removing from it by looking in the formulas. I also added a check figure to my summary table to make sure there weren’t any differences between my Original YTD total and Summary YTD total. The only line that should have a difference is the Salaries line, and that’s because I added $8,000 of salaries expense that should have been there in February, but that wasn’t. However, because the other accounts were wrong in January, but corrected in January, their YTD totals match between the Original and Summary spreadsheets.

                  Anyway, I hope that’s not too confusing and ends up being helpful. It’s a little tough to explain it in a little comment box :)

                2. RandomName*

                  I just wrote up a really long, detailed comment and clicked submit, but it’s not showing for some reason (maybe because I typed out what one of the formulas would be and that triggered comment moderation?). I tried clicking “submit” again, but it says I’ve already submitted it, so I’m hoping it’s just that it’s being moderated…

                  I copied the comment over to Microsoft Word, so if it doesn’t show soon, I’ll try posting it again.

                4. Whippers*

                  I will give this a go and see how I get on with it. Thank you so much for going to all this effort; I would never have been able to think of this myself. I’ll let you know how I get on!

                5. RandomName*

                  Oh good, it’s up! As I thought might happen, the spacing I added between the numbers didn’t come through, but if you’re adding the numbers to a workbook to test it out, it should be a little more clear.

                  Also, one mistake I caught:
                  However, because the other accounts were wrong in January, but corrected in January, their YTD totals match between the Original and Summary spreadsheets.

                  Should say:
                  However, because the other accounts were wrong in January, but corrected in February, their YTD totals match between the Original and Summary spreadsheets.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      What’s her accuracy tolerance?

      I get what she’s saying. I review our divisional P & L monthly and it’s a pain in the ass. Between timing differences and credit/debits for exactly what you’ve said, it’s a pain in the ass. You’d think that you could see/check your expenditures from accounting documents but it’s not very accurate on a monthly basis. Accounting documents are much better on a year view.

      (BTW, I’m now thinking that I’d love to have somebody do for me what you’re doing for her so, thanks for that. ;) )

      What I hear you saying is, this method I’m using, it’s not going to match to the penny and I’m concerned. If I were she, and you explained that to me I’d say, fine, really all I want is a simple list of all of our bills so I can see where the money is going. Just do that and I won’t care if it doesn’t jive completely with the books.

    3. Apollo Warbuks*

      It might be worth pointing out to your boss that the accounting treatment of transactions is defined by a complicated combination of company policy and legal requirements. (There’s more freedom with management accounts rather than financial accounts) Modifying the accounts is all well and good but they been prepared by well trained professionals in a particular formate for a good reason.

      Also if the accounts for your department are in a different format to other departments it wouldn’t make it easy to compare the records. Not to mention if the data is being manipulated there’s another chance for errors to creep in.

      Maybe your boss could spend some time with the accountants to gain a better understanding of how the accounts are prepared and why they are done that way that might help them interpret them better.

      It might be worth asking about posting correction to the accounts in the month the error occurred, but there could be a good reason that it’s not possible.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        It might be worth asking about posting correction to the accounts in the month the error occurred, but there could be a good reason that it’s not possible.

        Ha ha, in my dreams that would happen in my world. I think I gave up on that a decade ago and just sigh and accept it.

        The real bitch is the fiscal year crossovers. Obv we try to not have any account posting corrections over FY, but every year there is some big something with a timing difference that makes me pound my head on my desk.

        I actually took a few accounting classes in college and have a base knowledge and I still struggle to use accounting numbers effectively because the format I get them at least, isn’t tres useful.

      2. RandomName*

        A lot of times, the posting is an accrual that is posted for monthly financial reporting purposes and is set to automatically reverse the first day of the following month.

        For example, when you’re preparing the January financials in February, and you receive a $5,000 invoice related to January expenses, you want the expense to hit in January, so you post a journal entry to record it to Repairs and Maintenance as of January 31st so the expense properly shows in the month it was incurred and set it to automatically reverse the first day of the following month. So February 1st you start off with a negative $5,000 balance (for the month) in R&M. When Accounts Payable processes the invoice in February, they code the $5,000 expense to R&M and the net impact of that invoice is $0 in R&M which is correct, because the expense correctly shows in the month it was incurred, January. But a problem can occur if say when the invoice is approved for payment, the manager says, “Wait, this isn’t R&M, it’s actually for a new building we’re constructing, this should go to construction-in-progress.” So in February, AP codes it there instead. Well, now January shows an incorrect R&M expense, and February R&M expenses look $5,000 lower due to the beginning negative balance. Standalone, each month is incorrect, though YTD February is correct. Most companies close their books each month for control purposes and won’t reopen them to fix mistakes like this because it would really complicate things. Once the books are closed, no journal entries can be posted to the prior months. However, I can see why the poster’s boss wants the corrected information. It’s tough to do monthly forecasts and other analyses when you’re using monthly financial data that is thrown off by the reversing accruals and errors.

      3. Whippers*

        It’s so nice to discuss this with people who actually understand what I’m talking about!
        Yes, it wouldnt bother me so much if she was just using it for her own purposes. However, she also uses it to do a report on our expenditure to an outside funder, which is what really worries me. I have tried explaining that all this work is done by accounts and they do it this way for a reason. So while it may look strange over a month, it generally balances itself out over the course of a year. However, she seems to think that the outside funders will be asking questions if things look strange in a month; for example there was way too much salary costs posted one month which was reversed the following month. I don’t know why she thinks this because we don’t even report to them on a monthly basis!
        She is not an easy person to talk to and will generally insist that the way she wants something done is the best way, so my explanations of this haven’t really been taken on board.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Ack.

          I have to agree that if she is reporting to an outside funding source, real numbers from the real books are necessary.

          I’m not going to be much help here but I’ll throw a couple things out.

          First of all, unless the books are a wildly poor view monthly, she’s going to have to suck it up. Over 12 months, the monthly amount of payroll, for instance, does not equal yearly expenditure divided by 12, ’cause that’s not how books work. I’ll warrant that the person on the other end of the report gets that since it should be the job at the funding source of someone who understands books! Too neat would scare me if I were supposed to watchdog.

          Over the years I’ve made a number of changes to move my monthly numbers toward more useful for my purposes:

          1) posting dates. My folks try to get as much posted before month end as possible so I have less recorded in the “wrong” month. Very large bills, they will ask me which month I want them in, if close to month end. I might want a large paper bill posted the next month so it is recorded the same month as the printing bill because that’s easier for me to see them together in the same month.

          2) view. I am always viewing FY to date and the closed month and the year over year for each at the same time, that’s how I get my reports. A few months in, FY to date is pretty darn helpful while the individual month is not so helpful.

          3) creating new G/Ls. before a new FY starts, I go through our g/l codes and eliminate + add to try to improve the usefulness of the info sent to me. I made a big move this FY to pull our freight for samples (to and from customer) out of COGS and into its own g/l code where I can include it as a marketing expense.

          Sorry. Probably the best I can say is that I do understand and feel your pain.

  143. Cruciatus*

    Would you say making $15 an hour after 16 years with the same employer is terrible? Especially when that employer is doing very well financially? A coworker told me how much she makes on the eve of her retirement. I knew our employer was stingy, but I was hoping maybe at some point they rewarded years of service or *something*. While it’s more than I make now, it’s horrifying to think I might only be making $5 more than now a decade+ later. Has lit a fire under my ass to start applying more, I tell you what…

    1. RandomName*

      Does your employer give annual raises? At my company, people who have been there a long time are priced out of the market because their pay is so high now due to our annual raises. In addition, our HR department researches market rates for each department every few years and if people are making below that amount, they’re bumped up. I’ve never known another company to do this for existing employees though; I’ve only heard of it being done at my prior jobs for new employees.

      We have a woman being paid $25/hr. for a job we bring new people on at $15/hr. She’s been with the company 25 years though.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Since I’ve been there (4 years), we get a 2.5% or 2% (last year it went down to 2%) “merit raise” which, I’ve discovered, they will not give to people for lame reasons. That’s it. I did ask my boss for a raise months ago, and he would give it to me if he was in charge. But he has to find “the right moment” to bring it up to the provost because she’s temperamental and asking for this now could mean he doesn’t get something else later and it’s just a nightmare. He said the woman before me received a “significant raise” but I think he’s using “significant” from my employer’s point of view, not reality. $1 or 2$ maximum, and I’m betting on the former, if anything. And who knows when I’d be “allowed” to ask for another one.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Actual $ amounts vary drastically per region. In my area of the country, I couldn’t get anyone to work any job for less than $15 an hour to start.

      I will say this: some jobs pay what they pay in company. If the employee doesn’t change jobs, or the value to the company of the job itself doesn’t change, there’s a ceiling as to what a job can pay.

      Years of service matter when they matter. Typically, a long term employee is going to have a large knowledge base that makes them more valuable. You pay them more because they are more efficient at their job than a new person would be, and they make the people around them more efficient.

      OTOH, if the job is screwing the tops on toothpaste tubes, it’s possible to ceiling out at $15 an hour because paying more would make the toothpaste too expensive to sell. In that job, there’s a ceiling to the value of years of service.

      Bottom line: nope, you don’t want to be still working for that company in that job a decade later.

      1. Cruciatus*

        While the cost of living is somewhat cheaper than a few cities nearby (2 hours or less), it’s not exactly cheap. I make $10.45 an hour and I’ve done the math and can barely afford an apartment AND eat AND save any money. While I’d be better off at $15 an hour (and would prefer to make that!) I still wouldn’t be rolling in it in these parts. But I could maybe take a vacation somewhere every few years… And I’m pretty frugal these days. I work as an administrative assistant at a medical/pharmacy school that owns a hospital, has just built a senior living center, has 2 other branches, and is expanding into dentistry. They showed how much they valued me when I went from their $8 an hour library job to my AA position and started me at the lowest end of THAT pay scale, $10. Which is what everyone else coming into that position from the outside makes. And I had already been there 2 years. This place!

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          $10.45 an hour for an AA job sounds so low to me, anywhere in the country.

          An employer’s motivation for pay scale is simple: attract the quality of people that you need, and retain them as much as you need to retain them.

          I think Large Employers, like yours, can offer low pay and still attract employees. I mean after all, you’re there, and the employee who just retired was there for a long time, and all of the other people around you are all there. Maybe people are lined up waiting to work at The Wakeen Medical System because it sounds secure and like the place you can make a career.

          Anyway, a good AA can eventually make 3x elsewhere what you’re making now so, you know what you need to do.

          1. Cruciatus*

            Well, I am still here because it’s better than unemployed…but I’ve been trying to get out for 2 years! My entire lunch group has but the economy is taking its sweet time bouncing back here. This is my first real full-time job so I felt I was “paying my dues” at first, I guess. But now it’s like…why am I only making this much? Pay isn’t great around the area in general so I fear anywhere else is comparable–but I am applying like mad lately to anything interesting. Thank God I like my coworkers and (usually) my boss. It makes it a bit more bearable.

    3. Lizzie*

      At a previous job I held at a very small non-profit agency, I can easily imagine that most people who had been with the agency that long were making about that much – but this was also a place which, unfortunately, struggled with a lot of financial issues. (That’s among the reasons I left.) But as Wakeen’s Teapots Ltd points out, geography matters, and in the area where this agency was located, $15 per hour (for a 35-40 hour per week job) would enable someone to life relatively comfortably. Where I live now, I would be very, very hard pressed to accept a job that started ta $15 per hour, let alone one that started at less than that – I’d barely be able to pay my rent on that. (And my rent is cheap compared to everyone else’s.)

  144. Ruffingit*

    So my boss is a jerk. I’ve been kvetching about that here for awhile. It’s amazing what he will say to me sometimes. Mostly he ignored me, which works well for me since I don’t like him and don’t care to associate with him, but it’s interesting that every time he does talk to me, it’s to question me about something in a rather accusing tone. It’s almost like he wants to catch me in the wrong.

    Anyway, I took two days off in the middle of the week this last week to enjoy some time with my friend and her family who were visiting from out of state. I’ve been working there for nine months and in that time, I’ve worked weekends, frequently worked over the amount of time I’m required to be there (salaried, so no overtime) and I show up on time every single day. So I’m gone two days and when I return, none of my work had been done. NONE. Now, this is a problem because we work in a field where you are required to comply with certain deadlines for the work product. Nearly all of my work was out of compliance because my colleague did none of it while I was gone. First day back, my boss comes in and says “One of your work pieces went out yesterday without X done on it. You need to do as much of your work today as you can to keep it in compliance.”

    UH…OK. Because I wasn’t planning on doing that already?? Also, why tell me that something went out without X done on it yesterday when I wasn’t here and couldn’t do anything about that and my colleague should have? Also, part 2, my boss can do none of the work himself because he’s not licensed and this job requires a license.

    So yeah. It’s just amazing what this guy will say and do to try and spin things into my somehow being a bad employee. Yesterday, I worked a 12-hour day to ensure everything was in compliance before I left for the weekend. But nothing will be said about my work effort. Not a word. I will only be talked to when the boss is trying to trip me up with something negative.

    Le sigh. OK, done complaining for this week. Stay tuned. ;)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you lock your desk and take the key with you? Or lock up your computer access?

      I had a job like this. It was my fault when things when wrong while I was on vacation. No one wanted to take their vacation. It was easier to stay there and get yelled at.
      Tell your coworker if he submits your unfinished work again you are going to break his fingers. (Okay, not a great idea but fun to think about.)
      And if you submitted his unfinished work, you’d still get your wrists slapped, right?
      Sigh.

      Seemingly unrelated: You know there are people in nursing homes that NO ONE ever goes to visit. And people wonder why.

      1. Ruffingit*

        It’s hard to explain without revealing too many details, but the work has to be submitted by a certain time regardless of whether all of it is there or not. What should have happened here is that co-worker should have done piece X and then submitted the work. Instead, she didn’t. Now, in her defense, she has a lot of work of her own so doing mine too was something of a hardship, but I did talk to her beforehand about taking the vacation days so she was well aware I would be gone.

        My guess is that boss told her not to do anything on my workload because he’s just a jerk like that. His interest is throwing around his power rather than what is good for the company. He probably wanted to try to make me look bad, but I refuse to take up that cross and carry it. Lack of staff and his lack of ability to step in and help is not my problem. I suspect when he came to me to tell me such and such went out without X done on it, he wanted me to be all up in arms and explaining myself and what not. Instead, I just said “OK.” That is my standard reply to everything he brings to my doorstep. He just cannot rattle me and I know that makes him mad, but if I got upset over all his antics, I’d be angry all the time. Not worth it. I come here to complain, but otherwise I’m pretty nonchalant about the whole thing because that’s the healthiest way to handle it.

    2. Whippers*

      “But nothing will be said about my work effort. Not a word. I will only be talked to when the boss is trying to trip me up with something negative”

      Oh yeah, my boss is all about that.

  145. CJ*

    Someone had left me a voice mail on Thursday morning about a job I applied to. I called their office, but they were out, so I e-mailed to ask if they could send me more information about the position, such as what company it was for (the job ad didn’t say, and I wanted to know so I could figure out the commute would be). On Friday, I got a phone call, but since I can’t take personal calls at work and I didn’t recognize the number, I just shoved my cell phone back in my pocket, only to immediately realize I’d hit the “talk” button since my phone stopped vibrating. I couldn’t answer since my supervisor was right next to me, so I just ended the call and hoped it was a spam call. When I check later, it was the same number as whoever had called about the job.

    I’m not sure if I should send an e-mail to explain and apologize in case I apply to future jobs with the same recruiting company, or if I should not do anything. Any suggestions?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Just call them back. Tel them you had difficulty with your phone and realized later that they had called. Tell them you are sorry. And then proceed into the main part of your discussions with them.
      Note- keep the story real simple, apologize and move on.

  146. Mango*

    I’m really confused. I sent a friend request to a coworker and she “has not responded” in months but posts things on her FB every week–which basically means she does not want to add me as a friend. I find this weird considering that she has added other coworkers in our office and I am not a supervisor. She even added the person who held my job before me. I mostly find it odd because she initiates conversations with me and even invited me to lunch. I feel that if you don’t want to add coworkers–fine. But when you add some coworkers and not all the ones you regularly talk to…it creates a sense that you don’t like that person or are hesitant about that person. I’ve stopped out chats and water cooler talk because I just find it strange–we’ve never had any arguments or anything. What do you think?

    1. Cruciatus*

      It’s possible she is choosing not to add you, but sometimes you see an invite and forget about it, but once you’ve looked at it, you don’t see the notification any more. So it slips your mind and that’s that. I’m fairly certain this is why FB messages I send to people never get answered. They get read, can’t answer right then, then the notification is gone and they don’t think of it again. I think once a year I happen to see the list of people who have asked me to friend them that I ignored (usually people I don’t know) and with other people it never happens that they check that. If there are other clues telling you she doesn’t want to be friendly with you that’s one thing, but I think if she’s friendly at work I’d go with that.

      1. Ruffingit*

        This. I know I’ve left friend invites for months at a time until I receive another request from someone else and I realize, oh yeah I never did add so and so. I truly wouldn’t worry about this at all. If you’re friendly at work, that’s good enough. Don’t let Facebook make something into a mountain when it’s not even a molehill.

  147. Burkleigh*

    Hello everyone! I’m hoping to find some advice/commiseration from all you lovely people. I am currently in my first job out of grad school–I’ve been here about 5 months now. Even though it’s not my “dream job” by any means, I thought I’d stick it out for a year or two so I could eventually apply for jobs requiring more experience. However, I already know there’s no way I want to stay here any longer than I have to. The work itself is okay, but the staff morale is very low. It seems like practically nobody wants to be there, and there’s a fairly high turnover rate from what I’ve heard. A lot of it is due to the attitude of the organization’s director, who is very controlling, often disparages staff to their faces, and constantly criticizes staff’s work. I work with a lot of nice, capable people, but it seems that everyone is just doing what they can to get by, since the director insists on final approval of everything and it’s easiest to just do what she wants instead of sticking up for ourselves and our opinions. It’s not a place where I feel valued or encouraged to think for myself in any way.

    I don’t want to be seen as a job hopper, but this job is causing me a lot of anxiety and I want to get out as soon as possible. I plan to start applying for new jobs this week, though who knows how long it will take me to find a new job. I’m in a field that makes it highly likely that I’ll have to move for my next job, which adds to my stress. I already moved to an unfamiliar city for the current job! It’s hard to imagine packing up everything and moving again less than a year later. But I don’t think things are going to get better for me until (1) I leave or (2) the director magically disappears. If money weren’t an issue, I’d have quit by now. I get too anxious even thinking about work on my days off.

    So…any thoughts or advice? I’ll be grateful for anything experienced AAM readers can suggest. :)

  148. Cruciatus*

    Hope it’s not too late to ask this as I’m working on it right now… I’m completing the same job app that I complained about here yesterday. I’ve worked in 2 different positions within my current company. I usually mark my current position as my most recent employer, then list my previous (first) position as my 2nd most recent (though they were the same employer the jobs were completely different). There are different managers for each. My first manager knows I’m searching and has offered to be a reference (and I trust him not to blab to my current supervisor) so will it look weird in the section for my first position at the company to say “do not contact my employer” and then use my former manager as a contact?

  149. Vitale*

    Hello All!
    I want to know how much is “too much” too apply to a job position. In my case, I have applied to a position I really like about 14 times with the same company. It is a big company so I am appling to differnet cities. Everytime I had applied, I got a rejection email. Should I give up? Should I not apply anymore and wait until I have experience in the field?
    Please help! :)

    1. Burkleigh*

      I think it’s fine since you’re applying to different openings–if you were applying 14 times to the same position in the same location, then that would be excessive. However, if you think you’re being rejected for lack of experience, wouldn’t it make sense to stop applying to this company, and instead apply to jobs that will give you the experience needed for the jobs you are currently applying for?

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