open thread – May 25-26, 2018

by Alison Green on May 25, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. stej*

    I recently secured a job offer, and I’m esctatic! This is going to be my third job, and this resignation was SO different from the first one, which was a total dumpster fire. (Almost literally… there was literally a dumpster fire at my last job.)

    My question is this — I met someone who will soon be my colleague, and she is like a boundless well of energy. She seems really fun, is doing like 50 million things all the time, and has a very exuberant, strong personality.

    I’ve met people like this before, and while I am in awe of their energy, I often can feel smothered really quickly. I consider myself a social introvert (ISFJ, if you’re into it) and in the presence of strong extroverts can find myself getting quieter and quieter because my brain is racing to try and process everything that’s happening. Often, I can see them getting nervous that I’m not saying anything, and I worry that I come across poorly. I’m also just worried I won’t be able to keep pace!

    Does anyone have advice for introverts working with strong extroverts? How can I collaborate effectively with them while avoiding feeling smothered myself?

    1. WellRed*

      Hmm, I am similar in the social introvert thing. I feel like those super extroverts don’t even notice half the time if someone else is quiet, but I get what you mean.

      1. Justin*

        Well, my wife is like you, and to the comment above, we do notice! Personally I often get nervous I am boring/annoying them when they go silent, so can make it worse by trying to find some other topic that will make them engaged. But, what helps is if you can plan our chat time? Like arrange to get coffee (or whatever) every so often, accept that it will be a blur but with a limited timeframe much easier to handle.

    2. HigherEd Person*

      It’s good that you recognize the differences b/w the two of you. Go for coffee or grab lunch, and get to know her on an individual basis. You do NOT NEED to keep up with her. You are you, and she is her – and each are great in their own way. You process information differently, you recharge your batteries differently. And that’s cool! Just communicate it clearly. “So, I process internally, and I’d like some time to think about this. Can I get back to you later today?”
      Just listen, let E’s talk, and nod along, making appropriate “I’m listening” noises. I work with SO MANY E’s and that’s what I do. They want to be heard, but their brains are racing, and many E’s process verbally. That’s cool!
      You’ll get tanlged up if you keep trying to compare yourself to an extrovert, and that’s not helpful. You are who you are, and that’s your strength.

    3. SpaceNovice*

      There’s advice online that can probably delve into more detail on how to do this, but the gist is basically: let them know your needs. State your preferences in a way that says there’s nothing wrong with them OR you, but that you need a little more space and quiet. I’ve surprised myself in recent years by realizing I’m actually some form of extrovert, and I’ve had people ask me to tone it down in the past, and I haven’t minded it at all. We don’t like tiring people out, so it’s good to know what we can do to help. She might even have been told this before and know exactly what to do.

      Your soon-to-be coworker sounds really great and congratulations on the new job, btw!

    4. Nanc*

      The Introvert Advantage by Marti Laney has a great chapter on introverts at work. Your local library may have a copy–either traditional dead tree or in e-book format. The great thing about the book is you can read the intro and then just skip around to the chapters that interest you.

    5. Nita*

      This is not easy advice for an introvert, but being up-front about your personality difference may help. Maybe bring it up over lunch, or coffee. They’re sure as anything not going to notice unless you point it out, but once you do, it may be a little easier to later say “hey, back off a little, I can’t get a word in here!” or “can we chat later? sorry, I’m in the middle of something and don’t want to lose my focus!”

    6. Susan Sto Helit*

      Start by making up your mind to like her. It makes SO much difference to go into it with a positive mindset. Determine to yourself that you are going to like her and enjoy the energy that she brings to the workplace, rather than finding it annoying/tiring.

      You might find that she’s actually quieter when actually working, and was just enthusiastic to meet her new colleague. But every business needs a mix of people anyway – it’s entirely likely you’ll find that your skills complement each other really well (example: I had a working partnership on a committee with an introvert. She had the organisational skills that I dislike; I had the networking skills that she struggled with, so I was the one who handled that part of things and would then make the introductions and bring her into the conversation. It worked out really well for both of us).

      Have headphones for when you need quiet time, because we all do sometimes. It’s fine to feel exhausted by extended social interaction. But I hope it will be better than you think. And good luck with your new job!

      1. Washi*

        I agree with this. I met one of my best friends at work and had a similar first impression – she’s very bouncy, has a ton of enthusiasm and energy, and at first I found her absolutely exhausting. But because I knew we were going to work really closely together, I went in wanting to find things to like about her. I noticed how people responded to her energy, how that helped her build relationships, and also how she used her extrovert skills to draw quieter people like me out. And because she was so open with me, I quickly felt comfortable being open with her about our very different communication styles, like “fyi I am also super excited about this project, I just don’t show it quite the way you do!”

      2. stej*

        I like this. And I do like her! She is bouncy and fun in all the ways I’m not usually, and I can tell she’ll be a really fun colleague once I start working there. Thanks for the advice.

      3. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

        (example: I had a working partnership on a committee with an introvert. She had the organisational skills that I dislike; I had the networking skills that she struggled with, so I was the one who handled that part of things and would then make the introductions and bring her into the conversation. It worked out really well for both of us).

        I had the exact same scenario with a volunteer group. I am right there in the middle of introvert/extrovert so the whole being the voice of our group was easier for me than the woman I worked with who is a full on, 100% introvert. The first year we worked together (we met once a week) she barely spoke up but dang, she got all that paperwork filed before it was even a thought in my head. By the time our second year of working together rolled around she was in her comfortable spot and willing to do some of the social stuff allowing me to be more quiet (my preferred place).

    7. Emilitron*

      I sometimes think of having a social timer (like the Pomodoro system if you’re familiar) – throw myself into being as interactive and extraverted as I can for a fixed period of time, then say “okay, I have to take a quiet break, I’m going to go ___”. As others said, make up your mind to like her, and to enjoy the interactions as much as possible. For me, there are definite tasks that are good to accomplish during “extravert time” and tasks that are obvious placeholders for alone-time, and though I relish the quiet when I get time to think alone, I also feel good about just accomplishing a lot in a whirlwind. To make sure your goodwill attempt to use/enjoy the energy doesn’t turn into you gritting your teeth indefinitely and them not noticing how much you’re working at it, you’ll need to speak up and actually say something. Tricky trying to make it clear that this is not your native social language, without setting up a situation where you’re acting all apologetic, or where she’ll feel like she needs to apologize, but that’s where appreciating her style in short segments comes in.

    8. periwinkle*

      Agreeing with the others who recommended letting her know what your needs are. If both sides are ready to be accommodating, it can be a successful and even fun partnership!

      When I first joined my current employer, I was teamed with the extrovert to beat all extroverts. Chatty, enthusiastic, intelligent, charismatic, literally bouncing around – how the hell am I (INTJ) going to deal with this? We talked it out very early and figured out a rhythm. In the end we were a well-balanced team, and we’re still friends even though we’ve moved on to other projects.

    9. Windchime*

      The same thing happens to me when I am faced with an extreme introvert and I can literally feel myself shutting down due to being overwhelmed with non-stop sensory input. Fortunately, this doesn’t usually happen in work situations and I can leave or check out for awhile. When I am at work, I usually put on my headphones and listen to white noise so I can have a little mental space.

      Congrats on the new job!

    10. LDP*

      I’ve probably been labelled the bouncy, energetic, extroverted coworker on more than one occasion. As others have mentioned, definitely try to hone in on your active listening type skills. Just nodding your head and making small comments to show that you’re listening and interested can go a long way. The good news is that in a work context I think most people will understand if you need to back out of a conversation by needing to get back to work. I was matched up with an extreme introvert as a roommate once. We’re still really good friends, but holy cannoli were there some growing pains of us getting used to how the other one operated.

    11. MissDissplaced*

      I think sometimes you just have to open up about it a little bit. When you have a few quiet moments together you casually mention that you really admire her energy, but you’re a bit more introverted yourself. I think most people will tend to get that.

    12. Argh!*

      Two of them would be a disaster as would a pair of you. Embrace the differences! Having someone who is unlike me in my unit always makes me feel that there’s [that thing] I can trust them to run with and that will relieve me of the burden.

    13. foolofgrace*

      I don’t think it has to be a big prolonged “thing” like coffee or lunch. I would just say to her, “You know, I really envy your enthusiasm! [give her a compliment right up front to smooth the way.] But I’m a more quiet person, so if I don’t get as pumped up as you do, that doesn’t mean I’m not enthusiastic, it just means I process things differently, so please don’t be put off by my quietness.” Takes two minutes. Job done.

  2. Emma*

    Extremely over my current job. I got reprimanded by my boss for having my phone out at 9:07am yesterday, literally less than 10 minutes after walking into the office (because #optics apparently.) Also, when the other assistant & I mentioned in a team meeting that we both wanted to potentially stay long-term, but it didn’t seem like there was a growth track for us & that we felt like in order to move forward with our careers we would have no other option but to leave, her response was “sometimes you have to move laterally.” (Some context: there’s been a morale/culture problem on my team & in my office for a while, so we were discussing how to improve things. The comment wasn’t just out of the blue.) Needless to say, I’m trying to get out of here by the end of the summer.

    1. WellRed*

      Well, maybe you’ll “move laterally” right on out from the company. With a boss like yours, I am not surprised there’s a morale problem.

      1. Emma*

        That’s the plan! And if she complains about having to find my replacement, I have nothing to say other than that she did this to herself.

    2. Alternative Person*

      I understand this. There’s no upward path for people at work and there are a few staff so entrenched in the (relatively decent) gravy train that trying to changing anything runs you straight into a wall of bile and misery. I’m plotting my escape. Hope you get out soon!

    3. mako*

      I’m sorry. Sounds like your boss isn’t really willing to actually tackle the morale problem, especially if their answer to you talking about retention is to suggest you move out, without anything else. Huh.

      1. Emma*

        She really isn’t- it’s like screaming into the void. And that comment just made me want to hand her a resignation letter right then & there.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      We must work at the same place! Unfortunately the nature of my work means that if I left my current employer, I’d have to move states, and that’s not currently possible due to my partner’s job (which takes priority since he’s much better paid).

      I proposed making a lateral move myself and management wasn’t terribly enthusiastic until I pointed out how my special skill set will make me much better at the job than the person who previously held the role. I have a different boss now, and although she’s not perfect, she is certainly a step up from my previous manager!

      Good luck to you with your job-searching!

      1. Leela*

        I’d hate to think of you sticking in a bad job because your partner makes more money! I assume you would have thought of this so pardon if it’s obvious but is his job not the kind that could be found in a state you’d move into for your work?

        I think that him making more money is definitely something to consider, but I don’t think you should have to suffer through a terrible work experience indefinitely because of it.

  3. Wondering...*

    Six years post-college and five years working as administrative support, I am trying to think about where I go from here. There are a lot of things that interest me but it’s all things I don’t have much transferable experience for. I’m debating leaving my full time job to devote more time to either taking to complete classes/certification and/or part-time or volunteer more in what interests me.

    I feel burned out from the last few years of work and feel like getting a little distance and trying something new would be good for me, help point me more in the direction I want to go. But I worry how that period will translate on my resume. Would it make me look flakey or like a job-hopper if I’m testing a few different markets?

    1. JanetM*

      Would it be possible for you to temp for a while? I don’t know what you’re looking for or if those fields offer temp positions, but if you could, you could get experience with different companies without looking like a job-hopper (in my opinion, but I’m not a hiring manager or HR professional and could be wrong).

      1. Jadelyn*

        I’m an HR professional who got into this field via a temp job, so…I don’t think having a period of temp work on your resume is a problem. You note it down all under one company, the staffing agency, with a sublist of some of your assignments so that it’s clear what the relationship is between the two things.

        My only caution about temping would be that there’s no stability – you can go weeks or even months without an assignment – and it can be hard to break into as a frequently-used temp (vs being technically on their list, but rarely getting assignments). The pay is also lower than you’d expect for comparable non-temp positions, at least in my experience.

        But, if you’ve got some savings built up and are willing to deal with those things, it’s not a bad thing to do for awhile. It definitely does help you see more of the work world, so to speak – I worked at a medical device company, a malpractice insurer, a general contractor owned by a Native tribe, a regular for-profit general contractor, and a credit union. I did accounting for the second general contractor, office management for the first general contractor, operations administration for the malpractice insurer (and I knew another temp who stayed there longer than I did and who got into the actual underwriting as an assistant), and then HR for the credit union, which I fell in love with and decided to go back to school for. The credit union “bought me out” from the staffing agency, I got my degree in HR Management, and I’ve been working here for over 4 years.

        So it can be a good way to get exposure to more of the work world and see the possibilities, but a lot of that will depend on getting assignments at companies that are actually good to their temps and let them learn stuff (some companies are *jerks* to their temps and treat you like disposable peons) – and of course on being able to financially make it through potential dry spells.

        1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

          Hello fellow HR-at-a-credit-union-thanks-to-a-temp-job-that-turned-permanent! I will always advocate for temping when trying to break into HR. It worked wonders for me, and helped me find the exact type of company I wanted to work for and learn this industry from.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Oh absolutely! A lot of my cohorts in the degree program have been lamenting how hard it is to find an HR job even with the degree, because they lack HR experience – and I mean, I get why employers value the experience over the degree for this, I’ve learned more on the job than my degree program ever taught me, but it makes it hard to break in unless you can get a foot in the door. And temping can be a way to get that foot in when nothing else seems to be working.

          2. periwinkle*

            Hello fellow former temps! I took a clerical assignment which turned into an administrative assignment which turned into an HR permanent job. Now I’m a SHRM-SCP working at a Fortune 50 Corp. Temping can lead to great things.

        2. AliceW*

          A long time ago, I left my first post-college job as an full time admin after one year to temp full time. In my city, temp jobs were easy to come by. I always had a job lined up and I made just as much money temping as a full time admin but without benefits. I got to try out a few industries and transitioned into an entry level finance position without any finance experience quite easily. I am all for temping if you live in fairly large city.

    2. Danimals*

      You’d be surprised how transferable administrative support skills are! If you are organized, detail-oriented, and can present your administrative experience well, that can easily translate to a lot of different roles – however, you’ll likely need to start at the bottom and work your way up. I’m in HR for a non-profit and we look for strong admin experience in all of our entry level roles.

      1. Tara S.*

        +1, admin skills transfer to new fields fairly well. If you can get a job in an industry you might be interested in, that could be illuminating. I never really considered doing admin stuff long term, but doing it in a field I like has made the role very enjoyable.

      2. krysb*

        Yes. I started my career as an admin, but it benefited me because it was in legal. It allowed me to move into litigation support/legal/tech, because my current job liked my legal experience.

      3. Only here for the teapots*

        I’ve used basic admin/logistics expertise to find interesting jobs in industries from stocks & bonds to nuts & bolts and everything in between – commercial greenhouses, capital management, fabric importer, legal publisher, academia, advertising, etc. Companies really need steady proactive troubleshooting employees, and most learning curves are industry/company-specific beyond the basic skillset, so no one expects you to know everything right out the gate.

      4. Wondering...*

        I’d hoped so too but when I searched with three years of office admin experience under my belt, I was mostly told I didn’t have that specific experience, even for entry-level positions.

        Development job at a non profit? Not experienced. University position? Not experienced. Marketing assistant? Not experienced. Entry level copywriter? Not experienced. Museum position? Not experienced.

        That’s what makes me wonder if I need to part with my full-time office job to do part-time or classes that are more focused.

        1. kmb*

          You could also try (if you haven’t already) getting some coaching about how to talk about your skills as transferable in your resume / cover letter and in interviews, and also how to talk about how you will approach strengthening the skills they don’t see you as having, and how your experience has prepared you to do that.

    3. Swoosh*

      I’m an LR/HR professional and I have zero administrative skills!

      I would look into areas of HR that you’re interested in and get a temping job that’s similar. I do human rights consulting in a unionized environment. :)

    4. Leela*

      I taught abroad, and came back during the worst of the recession. My teaching abroad experience was the only work I had outside of college, and I couldn’t even get a job at Denny’s because I didn’t have “two years waiting experience”.

      I had a string of unfulfilling admin jobs that lasted for years but eventually I was able to go back to school (definitely not something that’s available to everyone, I was incredibly lucky to get married to someone that could support us while I studied) and change careers.

      Having worked in HR, I’m not sure how easy it would be to job hop to test things out because hiring managers are generally looking for someone who matches a skillset, but I agree with the suggestions that you try and temp, and network, network, network! I think you’ll have an easier time targeting something specific than casting a very wide net, but that could definitely vary by field, location, etc.

      Admin stuff is a lot more transferable that people sometimes think it is, it requires strong communication, writing, sometimes strong Excel skills, documenting, etc. I’d start looking up job reqs for things you think you might be interested in (if you haven’t already) and applying for things where you’re about a 60% match, and looking at where you might be falling short of careers you want to try and seeing what you can do to boost them. I think that in many fields learning some coding for a non-coding job sets you apart although that seems to be changing a bit. Good luck, I know this is a bit of a rough and uncertain spot to be in but people re-invent themselves successfully many times and I’m confident you can too!

  4. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    The absolute worst thing came out of my mouth this morning.

    I was interviewing someone via videoconference, and I had an IT colleague helping me get set up because the tech in that room has been temperamental lately. So we get the call going, the IT person left, and I turned and said to the candidate “the tech in this room has been tricky…” then I tried to say “so I had to ask for help” and “I had to call in the big guns” at the same time and it came out “I had to call in the help.”

    if_i_could_turn_back_time.mp3

    3. Jadelyn*

      It could be worse. You could be the guy who accidentally kicked a soccer ball right into someone’s face hella hard, and while freaking out and trying to apologize got stuck between “I’m so f***ing sorry” and “Are you okay?” and shouted “Are you f***ing sorry?”

      It may be an apocryphal tale – I originally saw it in a screenshot of a very very old chat thread that I think originally came from IRC? – but I choose to believe it cause it’s hilarious.

      1. Urdnot Bakara*

        I saw that on Tumblr and it’s the first thing I thought of when I saw Kalros’s post lol

      2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        HAHA, DUDE, YES. You’re right, I may have accidentally insulted IT but at least I didn’t kick anyone in the face and then literally add insult to injury. Funnily enough I was just telling my work buddy about that story earlier this week because she was checking people in to an event, saying “you’re all set” and “have a wonderful evening,” and at one point she very cheerfully said “you’re WONDERFUL!” to someone.

    4. Urdnot Bakara*

      Oh NO. Stuff like this happens to me all the time but it never stops being really embarrassing. Sorry this happened to you!!!

      PS love your username.

    5. Environmental Compliance*

      I once was hosting a 50+ student drop-in exam review session (freshmen level at big uni) and managed to accidentally say an innuendo in the middle of a sentence. I can’t remember quite what I said, but something along the lines of something about chemical reactions & chemical bonds and the molecules were doing something, and it came out all wrong.

      It was also like 9PM and I had been running around nonstop since 7AM, so the students that actually had me were sympathetic. I just cracked myself up laughing and continued on.

      On the plus side, the next review session had at least 70+ students and I had to get an actual lecture room, so maybe hearing about it made more people show up to the voluntary exam reviews.

      1. Christmas Carol*

        When I was in college we doing the chapter on light, mirrors, and lenses. As a 19-year-old co-ed I remember sitting in the front row and asking my prof, So what combination gets you to erect and enlarged?

    6. Alucius*

      When I was thirteen, I said to a group of my friends, “let’s take a…” and then I said “break” and “rest” at the same time.

      It went over about how you’d imagine.

    7. I still cringe*

      I sometimes have a hard time with remembering and placing people, especially those I’ve only met once before in a different context (regardless of race). I accidentally thought an intern I met with a fellow professional I work with was a completely different younger graduate from a different program. I apologized and said they looked alike. I’m white. We live in the Southern US. All others involved are black. I’m still mortified. I believe my personal and professional relationship with the professional involved is one in which she knows me and my heart and work and so knows it was not remotely what it sounded like beyond the absolute surface statement.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      If it makes you feel better, earlier this week I was talking too fast and things came out garbled. I meant to say, “next week we should start Shakespeare.” What came out was “next week we should shart Shakespeare.”

      In front of 24 12-year olds.

      At least two noticed. I saw some smirks. But they were cool and didn’t point it out.

    10. Commander Shepard*

      Lol I do that, sympathies! But mostly I just want to appreciate your name, good work taking down the reaper

  5. KatieKate*

    Got permission to work from home today and enjoy the wonderful weather the Midwest is getting, but not a lot of work is getting done. Whoops! *sunglasses emoji*

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I definitely SHOULD have opted to work from home today, as I have no meetings and we’re probably going to get the go ahead to leave early. But it didn’t occur to me until I was commuting in…so here I am! T_T

    2. Annie Moose*

      I briefly got to enjoy the beautiful weather as I was running home to change my entire outfit… managed to knock my mug off the breakroom counter and got hot chocolate EVERYWHERE. (and broke my NaNoWriMo mug! I’m so sad–they don’t sell that style anymore)

      It was really, really hard to go back in to the office. As I was driving home, I was berating myself for not just bringing my laptop and working from my balcony for the afternoon!

  6. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I have officially reached the point in training where I am tired of being *in* training and wish there was a way to simply download the necessary information into my brain so I could just do things.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Literally the person training me keeps telling me to “slow down”. I cannot GO any slower. I have done barely any actual work today because she keeps telling me not to do things yet.

      1. Positive Reframer*

        That sounds really frustrating. Part of being new (and also not so new) is not knowing what you don’t know and what you could mess up without even knowing that you were.

        Just like when you were in school though, learning is your actual work right now. It is your job to learn and retain what you know and that is what they are paying you to do.

        Are there any things you can do that would help you feel like you were accomplishing something but that are related to training? Is there a glossary you could create? Process flow charts? Something that would help you feel like you had a thing that you created at the end of the day?

        Also it sounds like you may have some down time, maybe while your trainer is doing other things. Could you ask to shadow someone for a couple hours in a related position? Are there physical tasks that could be done so your mind can have some space for processing information?

      2. Jules the Third*

        Maybe time to write down how you understand doing things and compare them to the official docs? Kinda busywork, but it’s actually how I do a deep revision on my process docs – train someone, then compare our training notes to the current process.

      3. Gotham Bus Company*

        Maybe your trainer wants you to not do anything because she sees you as a potential threat.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          My mom actually said something similar when I was talking to her earlier. That maybe my speed is intimidating to her.

          I can’t help it though. It’s just how my brain works. I’m very good at pattern recognition and my brain goes a mile a minute. Honestly, from some of the things I’ve read here, I suspect I may have undiagnosed ADHD and it’s something I’m going to talk to my doctor about next time I go. When I was in elementary school, I had to go to speech therapy because I talked too fast. My brain worked faster than my mouth.

  7. [insert witty username here]*

    Question re: explaining you were fired. My husband is currently employed but was fired from his previous job, which is the job that actually has relevant experience to what he wants to do moving forward. In discussing his work history, should he just up front say he was fired (and the related explanation) or not bring it up unless they specifically ask why he is no longer at that job?

    Related: what’s a good script for explaining why he went from an office job to a restaurant management job? Basically, at that point he just needed to work but now wants to get back into an office job. Is there a better way to say “I took the restaurant job cuz I needed the money?”

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d say it depends on the reason for the firing and if he can reasonably spin it as an experience that he’s learned from and will not repeat.

      I’ve had good luck being honest that I was fired because I let things fall through the cracks when my workload tripled and management wouldn’t give me help despite asking multiple times. I always include specific numbers and time frames when I speak about it and people’s eyes usually get rather wide.

      1. [insert witty username here]*

        Thanks for the feedback and congrats on your recent TOIGHT nups ;) (So glad NBC picked up the show!!!! Fox was crazy to cancel!!!)

        He was fired because he butted heads one day with one of the owners (3 owners; 7 person company…. and 4 of them were related). Owner was in the wrong with what he was asking and had been treating everyone horribly since he was brought onboard (of the 2 other owners, one was remote and the other was barely in the office but also butted heads when he was there – but again, related). Husband finally stood up for himself (admittedly, too flippantly) and owner fired him to show him who was boss. So he can spin it that husband was actually standing up for what was right for the clients and their own processes (not actually a spin – just a truthful explanation) and had a personality clash with the owner over it. He will explain that while he didn’t handle things as calmly as he should have, he has learned that it’s still important to stand up for what’s right, but how to not let himself be provoked while doing so.

        1. [insert boring and mundane username here]*

          I’m no expert, but that explanation sounds pretty solid to me!

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Agree, that sounds solid.

            He wants to avoid anything like tap-dancing–“Why did I leave? Well–Omigod is that a squirrel in your hair?” And having a thing he’d do differently now is a good spin–suggests flexibility and growth. (Not universal–I don’t think it applies to Amy’s situation, but does to his.)

        2. Beancounter in Texas*

          Keep it concise, so as to not raise too many eyebrows, nor questions.

          “I had a philosophical difference with the boss on the client’s best interest, but unfortunately, I had a heated exchanged with the owner. I’ve since learned techniques for keeping a lid on my emotions at work and not become provoked.”

          1. Jules the Third*

            I’d leave out ‘heated exchange’ and everything after. “Philosophical difference with the boss about the client’s best interest’ is all you need.

    2. HR Recruiter*

      Its best to be honest but not overshare. I’d also suggest a strong cover letter explaining why he wants to get back into the office world.
      There are two types of answers I usually get when interviewing candidates. You can guess which one I hire.
      1=”I got fired. I needed money so I took this job at this restaurant but I don’t like working those hours.”
      2=”I took on a new project and failed to meet deadlines and ultimately let go. I was given the opportunity to work at X restaurant which is not my ideal career choice but allowed me to really develop my time management skills. I’m excited to get back into X field.”

      1. HR Recruiter*

        I just saw your post about the reason. I would not put that. I would say something like, “It was a very small company and I did not agree with the direction and decisions of the company. I took job at X while I looked for a company that would be a better fit for me. I applied to your company because of Y.”

        I’m assuming he is not using anyone at former company as a reference since all of the owners are related and likely won’t give a reference. So no one would be verifying why he left in detail.

        1. Jules the Third*

          +1 yeah, don’t get into ‘argued with the boss’, however good the reason was.

        2. Washi*

          I think is good, and I also think that as an interviewer I would probably ask for an example, so your husband should be prepared to explain an instance of how/why he disagreed.

        3. [insert witty username here]*

          First – thank you for the feedback. Very valuable!

          Second – he actually is still using the other owners as references! He actually got the job because he was social with the first owner. They are still on very good terms and he has asked him specifically if he’d be a positive reference and he said he’d be very happy to be a good reference. Weird situation, but after reading this site so much it seems most work situations are… So we don’t want husband to “lie by omission.” But thank you for the feedback – super helpful wording!

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      “I took this restaurant job to experience a new set of challenges and learn from them.” Restaurant management is management! There’s lots of good skills in there to learn and apply to other areas.

      Did your husband have to track supplies, put in orders, hire and fire, create schedules, train new people, figure out payroll, interact with corporate (if it was a chain restaurant), interact with city officials, handle inspections, plan and implement menu changes, deal with volatile co-workers or customers, deal with widely varying “seasons” (if you’re in a tourist or college town) — any of those things? I don’t even have restaurant experience, so I’ll bet I’m missing some stuff. The really big thing about restaurant business is how varying it can be, and “flexibility” is a good trait to bring to any employer.

      1. [insert witty username here]*

        Thanks so much! Yes – everything you put there is pretty similar to what he made sure to include in his resume.

      2. Close Bracket*

        When I hear “challenge,” “learn,” or “grow,” I translate them to, “I just need a freaking job.” Of course, I consider “I just need a freaking job” to be a perfectly cromulent reason for working someplace, and I would move on to figuring out how good they are going to be at the job and whether they will actually do it reliably.

    4. Lawyer Anon*

      This would not be something I put in a cover letter or volunteer – but I can’t imagine it not coming up, especially since there are usually work history related questions like have you ever resigned or been fired from a previous job., so I’d have an explanation in my back pocket.

    5. [insert witty username here]*

      Just wanted to thank EVERYONE who replied! We appreciate the outside perspectives and ideas for wording/scripts. SUPER helpful!

  8. Susan K*

    I have a coworker, Jim, who is a chronic underperformer. He gets poor performance reviews, but where I work, people are rarely fired for general poor performance — it takes either some serious mistakes or misconduct to get fired.

    We used to have at least two people working every shift, but our manager changed the schedule policy several months ago so that now there is only one person on night and weekend shifts, and only a handful of people work these solo shifts. Jim is one of them (and so am I), and he has actually done surprisingly well with this change. Now that he is working so many solo shifts where there’s no one else to pick up the slack, he has to work harder than he used to in order to meet the bare minimum. He’s still by no means a top performer, but he has surpassed a few other mediocre performers. I even have some data that shows a marked increase in his productivity since we started the new schedule.

    I was surprised when he told me that he got another poor rating at his latest quarterly performance review, and I suspect our manager doesn’t fully understand the impact of the schedule policy change. From the perspective of the people who aren’t working the solo shifts, it looks like we’re slacking on those shifts because less work is getting done on those shifts than when we had two people. In reality, though, we’re working harder on those solo shifts because we’re doing about 25% less work but with 50% less staffing.

    Although it’s not really my business, I think it’s unfair that Jim isn’t getting credit for working harder. I’m afraid that he will backslide since he’s getting bad reviews either way. On the other hand, he probably should have been fired a long time ago, so maybe he should consider himself lucky to have a job. He’s still not performing at a high level, even with the big improvement. I’m also concerned that our manager might not realize how hard I’m working on the solo shifts, either. No one will accuse me of slacking, because I’m still doing about as much alone as most used to do with two people, but not as much extra work as I used to when there was a second person. Should I mention this to my manager? Should I advise Jim to point out that he’s actually working a lot harder than he used to? Should I show him the data that proves it? Or should I just stay out of it?

    2. Bagpuss*

      I think it is reasonable for you to talk about the extra work *you* are doing, not least because if the manager isn’t realising that you’re doing a job which was previously being done by 2 people, it may look to them as though your productivity has gone down, even though you are still doing more than others.

      Are there others, apart from you and Jim, doing solo shifts? If s, could you work out a way to speak to the manager as a group (maybe if Jim isn’t the only one whose extra work isn’t reflected in his review, you could approach it that way, about how it doesn’t appear that the KPIs have been updated to reflect the significant change to the workload)

      If that is not an option, I would speak to the manager about your own performance and work load and let them draw any conclusions about Jim (and others)

      If you are friendly with Jim, you could let him know that you raised the issue and ask him if he did so during his review. However, unless you are also a manager, or Jim’s performance has a direct impact on you and your ability to do your job effectively, I think it would be overstepping to be bringing up Jim’s performance with a manager.

      1. Susan K*

        Yes, there are four of us doing the solo shifts. Two of us get excellent reviews and one gets average reviews, and I think for all of us, our reviews have stayed about the same since the schedule change. I’m on the fence about mentioning my own productivity because I have always been, and continue to be, #1 in productivity in the department by a significant margin. Even if my manager perceives my productivity to be a little lower now (which she hasn’t said but may or may not think), she still recognizes that I remain at the top.

        1. Jules the Third*

          I’d definitely want to have an interim conversation with my boss about it.

        2. Bostonian*

          You could frame it as being concerned that it might appear as though your own personal productivity has dropped (in comparison to your own past performance, not in comparison to others) due to the shift change.

    3. LCL*

      If you and the other shift workers have an increased workload on the off shifts compared to the other workers, you all MUST get this across to management. All of you. One of the crappy things that happens with shift work is the people who don’t work shifts never see you, so they assume you aren’t really working. Don’t be silent about this. Shift work is a big gain for management, they are getting much more dollar value from the facilities without having to expand. Management needs to know this, and Jim needs to know this. You don’t have to advocate for Jim to management, just start quantifiying some numbers and share with him and the other shiftworkers.

      When you are a shiftworker, your management has to be a little louder and pushier to advocate for their people. Arm your manager with what they need to do their job well. A good manager will see the implications if you go over the production numbers with them.

      People who agree to regularly work night and weekend shifts are special and rare and should be paid more. Management should appreciate what they’ve got. Give them the facts and explain how valuable an asset they have in their shiftworkers. If you don’t tell them, they won’t know, and they will continue to walk all over you. And yeah, giving someone a bad review when they have improved is walking all over the employee.

    4. sheep jump death match*

      I think in addition to the other suggestions above, you should come up with a couple (legitimate) compliments for Jim and email them to him, cc his manager. Like, don’t say he’s been doing all the work if he hasn’t, but something like “I’ve noticed that you’re really churning out teapot handles on your weekend shits. It really makes a difference to come in on Monday and have so many ready to go.” That shows your manager that Jim’s performance has changed in a way that’s good for the company and morale on his team.

    5. designbot*

      I think this depends on the culture at your job. At mine it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for someone to mention to a manager “BTW I’ve been so pleased to see how Jim’s stepped up since putting him on solo shifts.” I wouldn’t go into the amount of detail you have here unless they follow up with a question, but putting in a good word for him doesn’t seem out of order to me.
      That said, if ultimately you’d still rather he be fired than not, then don’t say a thing and let it sort itself out.

      1. Evergreen*

        Yeah, this is common in the teams I’ve worked on; usually as an aside in a conversation about something else. I’d advocate for this approach if it’s feasible for the OP

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I would not recommend advocating for Jim with your manager. Limit your conversation to your workload and what you are accomplishing vs what you used to accomplish with two people. Keep the approach general and use a big picture perspective.

      I am hesitant to recommend you tell Jim he is working harder than before. Jim maybe on a shift by himself because the manager wants him to make up his mind to swim, not sink. So you may not have the full picture of what the manager is aiming for here. You can look for opportunities to give random compliments, “I see you worked on X last night. It looks really good.” Or, “The data shows you have increased your Ys by almost double, that is great! Good for you.”

      It sounds like Jim is in a position where if he backslides he will be out the door. You may have to let that one unfold whatever way it unfolds. This goes back to trying to help people who are not asking for help. Now, if he point blank asks you for general help or specific help, I think it’s fine to help where he is asking.

      I am saying this as someone who tried to help a few slackers. Typically, they don’t want help. If they say they want help, they will work at their problems for a bit then suddenly stop. Meanwhile my work and my work effort started sagging because of putting time into this person. If people are going to change they seem to have changes within a few weeks, then they can morph into a good or even great worker and you can see that this is where they are going. Pay attention to your doubts, if you catch yourself doubting Jim’s ability to become a better worker, you are probably right.

    7. Argh!*

      It’s the halo / horns bias — a version of confirmation bias. A lot of supervisors give the same rating from year to year regardless of changes in performance.

  9. FaintlyMacabre*

    I posted this a few weeks ago, but late. I’m looking for fun stories of workplace karma. Mild comeuppances. Here’s mine:

    Several years ago, I had a temp job in a ridiculously dysfunctional workplace. It was a large factory and I along with two other coworkers did office work there. In my head, I dubbed them Micromanager Mindy and Do-nothing Delores. (For this story, know that while she drove me insane as a coworker, as a human being I actually liked Micromanager Mindy.)

    Do-nothing Delores did not like me or Mindy, largely because we actually knew how to do our jobs, did our jobs, and didn’t cover for her when she frequently slacked off of her job. She was a giant suck up, and would bring in treats for everyone in the factory, but always mysteriously ran out before she got to me and Mindy. I could go on, but you get the idea.

    One day, Jim, the grand boss comes in. He’s holding three strips of ten raffle tickets in his hand. The office was having a raffle for charity and there were some really nice prizes- electronics and cash and gas station gift cards. Jim addresses the three of us, saying that while he wanted to support the raffle, as the grand boss it would be inappropriate for him to win anything and therefore had bought the tickets for us.

    Even as Mindy and I are getting out our thanks, Delores has already snatched a strip of tickets from Jim’s hand and walked away without saying anything. (In my memory, she goes off into a corner and hunches over them, crooning, “Preciousss, my preciousss,” but that is probably not what happened?) Jim, Mindy and I exchange a three way eye roll and then Mindy and I make an elaborate dance out of choosing the two strips of raffle tickets left. “Please, Mindy, choose which tickets you’d like.” “No, no, I insist you choose.” “I couldn’t possibly take away your choice. You simply must have your pick.” This continued until Jim more or less threw the tickets at us and walked away, no doubt regretting all the life choices he had made that had led him to that point.

    All week, Delores natters on about the prizes she wants and complains that Jim *only* bought her ten tickets. Mindy and I get in some high intensity eye rolling excercises. Finally, the raffle occurs and the prizes are distributed. Mindy and I both win gas certificates. Mindy also wins one of the higher end electronics. Delores gets diddly-squat. And every time she complained, we reminded her that she had the first pick of tickets. It was beautiful! Never have I enjoyed putting gas in my car so much as when I was using that certificate…

        1. Tuna Casserole*

          Thank you for the story, FaintlyMacabre. Made me laugh on a dreary Friday. You write very well.

    2. Justin*

      My coworker is laaaazy. He does not want to put in the work to advance (fair enough) and complains if asked to do anything at all outside of his very specific duties. And then a promotion opened up, and a person who simply applied for it received it, and he whined that he hadn’t been considered.

      (It was me who got the promotion. And he whined – to me – when my promtion was announced.)

    3. Danimals*

      Not sure if this counts but a few years back I worked for a start-up non-profit. They first (I know now illegally) classified me as a consultant, then converted me to full-time with a probationary period. I worked my ass off for them: I’m talking working three weeks in a row, eight hours a day, without a single day off, to help them get this program off the ground. At the end of my probationary period, due to the nature of the program and other staffing, they told me they I would not be receiving the job that they had me doing during my consultancy (which I didn’t know I was being evaluated on, and never received any feedback on) and that if I wanted to stay on with them I would need to staff a nights and weekends program for the 8 months – meaning I would basically work 2pm – 9/10pm Monday through Thursday and both weekend days. When I told them this was unacceptable, they fired me on the spot – didn’t even allow me to see the first day of the program where the students I had recruited and selected started the life-changing program. So, all-in-all, a bad experience.

      Cut to now – only the founders remain of the staff who worked with me (several positions have flipped more than once, actually) and the company has the worst glassdoor reviews of any place I’ve ever seen, except for a few that are obvious management plants. It was hard to feel good about their bad reputation, since the work they do with participants can be lifechanging, but now even the students have taken to glassdoor to complain. Karma is coming for them…

      1. designbot*

        isn’t it funny how easy it is to spot the management planted reviews when you actually know the company?

    4. Nita*

      My husband left an old job over a lot of things, but the last drop was getting a new boss who was nitpicking his work and seemed a bit mentally unstable – nice and chatty one day, screaming fits the next. He was pretty sure she’s zeroed in on him as an outlet for her bad temper for some random reason, but also wondering if there’s something wrong with him and he just can’t get along with people (for context, this was between another boss that undermined everything he did, and the new job that’s a slightly less bad dumpster fire).

      Well, he’s stayed in touch with a few coworkers, and he’s hearing from them that the entire department is having trouble with her now. She’s managed to put everyone through the same scapegoat routine, drove a couple of people out, and the absolutely most easy-going person in the department is now teaming up with another lady to lodge a complaint with the union. Can’t say I’m happy about any of this, except one small thing – my husband finally has some validation that he’s not crazy or antisocial, and the boss was totally the problem.

    5. Anon on this.*

      I’ve posted about this before. I’m front facing media. I was falsely accused of a crime and arrested, and our (former)corrupt police chief held a press conference about it. It made front page and TV news for three days as our competitors ate me alive. My boss withstood public cries for me to be fired and I returned to work (on air) three days after I was released. A thorough investigation exonerated me, the City forced the police chief to publically apologize at a press conference and then resign. His wife left him, and he’s now a substitute teacher in another town. My life has never been better. It was 5 years ago, but it was life changing.

          1. Anon on this.*

            Quadruple hooray for the PD’s detectives giving me his reserved parking sign. It now hangs in my home office with all my media awards. :)

      2. Thursday Next*

        Your boss was awesome!

        Also, there is nothing petty about this story—this was a big deal, with big consequences at stake! Glad you weren’t the one suffering in the end.

      3. Emily S.*

        Wow, that’s amazing. Good story.
        And thanks for giving us the short version — my attention span isn’t long, this afternoon before the holiday weekend!

    6. DCGirl*

      When I worked in Big 4 accounting, I was transferred under the Boss from Hell, and I finally left when I couldn’t take it any more. About two years, my phone lit up from former coworkers to let me know he had just been fired and marched out the door after dropping the ball on a pretty significant, very visible project. The last I heard, he could not get a corporate job after interviewing all over town (word of his abrasive personality was rife in the industry), and he and his wife had cashed in their savings and purchased a transmission repair franchise. If you check the reviews on Yelp, they say that the owner of that location is a jackass.

    7. Jules the Third*

      I’ve told the story before: At a small non-profit, I did some book-keeping and records maintenance to make sure everything was available for the auditors, along with all the tech support / computer stuff. After a year, we hired a full-time accountant. I couldn’t find records, heard her lie to a constituent (implying the CEO was sexist, which he wasn’t), a couple more things.

      I brought these up to the office manager. Crickets.
      I brought these up to the VP. Crickets.
      I lined up a new job and outlined them again in my resignation letter. I got walked out that day instead of working out the 2 week notice.

      About a year later, Accountant gets arrested for embezzling. Told ya so.

    8. deeshy*

      Ooooo, ooooo…I got one! Pick me!!

      When I was in my late teens (years ago) and I was working at a local gas station during the 3:00 PM – 11:00 PM (close) shift. Another woman approximately four years older managed the day shift, “Nellie” and was my sort of supervisor. Nellie handled the daily balances which she had to reconcile the shift cashouts. She was super kind to me and at the time I literally thought everybody who was nice to me was my friend (I bet experienced people are already sensing trouble – lol)

      Every. Single. Morning. Nellie would phone me after my evening cashout and ask me odd questions about why my sheet didn’t reconcile. After arguing with her that it balanced for me, she would come up with odd examples of why it didn’t. At the time, it made sense and I just presumed I made a mistake…again and again and again. Keeping in mind she trained me on the cashouts and reconciliation and my ego was taking a serious hit over the simple mistakes I appeared to be making. (My god, am I really that dumb??)

      Through the course of working at this station, I noticed that Nellie had a scratch ticket addiction. As in we would get the fresh rolls of lotto tickets, and she had figured out a system to find the winners using the security scan on the lotto machines to do so (oh the irony). She showed me her system and I foolishly didn’t really think anything of it. Nellie was able to spin this to my super naïve brain and make it completely acceptable. I shrugged it off and carried on with my job for a few more weeks. In this time, Nellie had purchased a new vehicle for herself and went on shopping sprees…all on minimum wage. My inexperienced brain just thought she was great with money. (as I’m typing this out, I’m shaking my head at my own idiocy)

      At that point, I started taking photos of my reconciliation sheets, the receipts, cash counts, etc. but these were the days of no digital cameras, so I actually had to physically get these photos developed – this is an important detail. Shortly after, I was accepted into a college course and put my notice in to the owner instead of Nellie. He accepted my resignation reluctantly and told me he would have loved to keep me. I mentioned to him that Nellie didn’t think highly of my cashout skills and I was always making mistakes, so this move was best for me. I obviously need more education. He made a thoughtful face, but said nothing more about it.

      Nellie was overly shocked about me leaving and irritated I didn’t discuss it with her first. I didn’t care – I was leaving. Picking up my last paycheque (before direct deposit too), there was a crisp $20 bill in the envelope. I pulled it out of the envelope and Nellie snatched it from me, babbling something about she “loaned” me the $20 so it looks like I’m fixing one last reconciliation on my cashout (mind you, I hadn’t worked there in more than a week). Whatever…I left and resumed my life.

      Fast forward about three months later, I bump into a former coworker, Timmy, from the same gas station. I asked how things were going and he asked me, “Have you heard about Nellie??”
      I’m sure others have pieced together by now – Nellie was robbing the place blind and setting me up to take the fall. I seriously wrinkled that plan for her by quitting suddenly and giving her no time to cover her tracks. My innocuous comment to our boss about me not able to reconcile the cashouts clued him in to where to look. Timmy said Nellie was still trying to advise the boss that she was covering for me, I was the thief, I took the money…”It was all her!!!”. I told Timmy I have photos of my cashouts before Nellie got a hold of them, and I’d be happy to pass them along if the boss needed them. I found out much later they didn’t need the photos, cause as soon as I advised I had them, Nellie confessed.

      Unfortunately, the owner never really recovered the money stolen and he had to close his business. Nellie faced charges, had to pay restitution and has a criminal record.

      It is still satisfying for me after all these years and my naiveté took a sharp decline after that. So…thanks Nellie, for that at least.

      1. designbot*

        Whoa. That was such a close call. I figured out early in your story that Nellie was stealing, but I thought she thought you knew and thought of you as an accomplice. I still wouldn’t have guessed that she’d try to pin everything on some kid.

    9. Annon for this*

      A number of years ago, I worked with a lady who came off as shady. She would post stuff on ebay and have a friend bid people up, etc. There was always something she and her extended family was scheming about. It was a constant thing. They were all like leaches. I kept my distance, it was exhausting staying away from her.

      She was let go. It was a relief.

      A few years pass and it seems like she is doing well. I run into her at local stores, etc. Her family started a business, which seemed fairly lucrative. I heard her family business is being investigated by the AG. I don’t wish that on anyone, but I am not surprised.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve mentioned BullyBoss at an old job before, who was really mean to one of the sales reps, and tried to undermine me at various times. Nobody liked him. Once, he went with some of the manufacturing folks to supervise repairs at a client site; according to them, he was utterly useless and they had to take control of the situation. He also seemed to be somewhat psychic, as he would anticipate phone calls that were for him and leave his desk right as they came in.

      I was laid off from that job following a restructure. After about a month or two, OldCoworker messaged me and told me that BullyBoss got fired. Not laid off; fired. We had a good cackle about that and both of us wished we’d been a fly on the wall for that meeting. Since I’m job hunting, I’ve lived in fear of having to work with him again, though I think he started a business of his own. I ran into him at the vet’s office shortly before my cat passed away. Yecch.

    11. Evil HR Person*

      When I first started working in an HR position, it was called Personnel (in other words, many years ago). I’d had very little HR experience, but my boss liked that about me – she wanted to teach me her way without me having any preconceived notions/ways of working in HR (BTW, she’s still my good friend and I consider her my mentor). At the time, I was working in an office with 3 other employees, plus Boss. The 3 others were Tulip, the recruiter, Jacinda, the generalist, and Daisy, the safety person. For some reason, Tulip and Daisy just didn’t want to work with me. They would complain to Boss up and down that I wasn’t doing my job fast enough – I used to do the reference checks so that Tulip could finish her recruiting. Meanwhile, all 3 (Tulip, Jacinda, and Daisy) would spend hours just gossiping, leaving me with all the work. It was a very stressful time for me.

      This went on for a few months, during which I got pregnant. One morning, I had to go to the hospital because my baby wanted to come early. I spent several weeks in the hospital trying to keep that baby cooking, while Jacinda decided she was going to quit. She didn’t even give a full 2 weeks’ notice. That left only Tulip and Daisy with my work and Jacinda’s.

      I went back to work after having my baby 12 weeks early, and sort of became everyone’s sweetheart. Everyone felt bad, including Tulip and Jacinda, because my baby was in the NICU, and I hadn’t had a baby shower, blah-blah-blah. I took it all with a grain of salt. Apparently, not having Jacinda there to fuel the gossip mill had a nice effect on the group. Whatever – I couldn’t forget that the two had wanted me fired, Tulip being the most vocal.

      Cut to about a year later and we had all settled into our roles, more or less. I was done for the day and heading out to the market when I get this desperate phone call from Tulip letting me know that Boss had fired her, trying to talk bad about Boss and so on. I don’t really remember what I said, but told her I was sorry and wished her luck. Come to find out she was doing something highly illegal and using our office to do it in – and got caught. Boss fired her on the spot as soon as she found out, and thereafter would tell everyone who called the office for a verification of employment what Tulip had done.

      Sweet, sweet karma…

    12. Decima Dewey*

      I used to have a manager who, as soon as she came in, rearranged the desk schedule so that the longest shifts occurred during the busiest times. She also required her staff to submit a formal memo whenever we requested PTO. This was before the library was wired for the internet, and doing so required finding an available typewriter and pounding the memo out.

      Came time for her to request PTO. She tried just telling her boss what time she needed off. And was told “No, you have to submit a formal memo, just like you require from your staff.”

    14. Argh!*

      When we had a reorganization and my boss had to cut the staff severely, she kept Mr. Perfect, who had his eye on a different department where someone was retiring, and put him in charge of his and my department, his plus another. He was NOT a hard worker, but he talked a good talk. I had the qualifications for the job he got, but I got laid off. He quit. The person who was put in his place was an internal candidate because they were too lazy (my interpretation) to do a search. They fired her because she was really not supervisory material.

      Boss got breast cancer and died.

      Not a funny story but it’s definitely a karma story.

      1. designbot*

        oof, I was just rereading mine and feeling a little bad, but then I read yours. At least nobody in mine died!

    15. designbot*

      Mine’s a bit less petty but super satisfying. I was working at OldJob and the manager who hired me got forced out and eventually replaced with someone who just did not appreciate what I brought to the table. She wasn’t a mean person, she didn’t actively seem to try to sabotage me, she just did not see my value. I was frutrated but we got along okay until she brought in a friend of hers at the level I’d been trying to get promoted to, paid her in the neighborhood of 50% more than me (we could see each other’s billing rates, which roughly aligned to salary though with a little bit of wiggle room). NewGirl worked tops 6 hours a day, treated everyone like her approval was something we should all strive for, and produced nothing of value herself. She tanked the budget of every project she touched, which put even more stress on those of us who were actually producing work because now we had to do more with less to get projects delivered. Every move she made felt like a slap in the face.
      Anyway, as it became clear that the NewBoss + NewGirl situation was becoming increasingly ridiculous, there happened to be a whole bunch of job openings in my field. I found one where I was not just promoted to NewGirl’s level, but actually to NewBoss’s level. On my way out, I very tactfully indicated that since the change in leadership my path to growth in the company had stalled which is why I’d been forced to look elsewhere. HR probed more into this, and NewBoss’s boss actually followed up because he wanted to know what was up with the budget on a big project I was on. He asked about team roles, who produced which concepts, he reviewed the project billings at my suggestion, and I’m confident that what he found there told a pretty clear story.
      A week after I started at my current job, my phone blew up with the news that NewBoss was fired and NewGirl was shunted to a different department, which was a well-known way the firm had of saying, “we’re giving you time to figure something out, but this isn’t going to work in the longterm.” I’m still pretty satisfied with how that turned out.

    16. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      This is so petty, but…

      Just out of college about 20 years ago I was working in a warehouse as a stock clerk doing paperwork processing — not actually out in the warehouse because that was a union job. This was a huge facility with multiple buildings and the kind of stock was very specialized. A large category of stock, say Death Star parts, was being phased out at this location and had to be moved to another location — the union wasn’t entirely happy with that but I got along well with all of the members in my building and never had any grievances. The tracking of Death Star stock and paperwork was the bulk of my job for the better part of a year and I, a very lowly clerk, had constant direct contact with a VP in charge of this project, Darth Dennis, because I created and updated a big excel spreadsheet for him of what Death Star parts were listed in stock, which parts have actually been confirmed to EXIST in stock (“lost” parts were a big problem), what paperwork we have on the parts, and what’s been shipped…

      So then, every year they did a big 3-day inventory and it was all-hands. I was out on the warehouse floor for this since I got along well with the union and and sort of could spot the “missing” parts for Dennis. A group of office assistants from another area of the facility were set up in my area for data entry of the completed inventory sheets. Since they weren’t in the warehouse doing manual labor, they sort of had the attitude that they were supervisory to all of us lowly warehouse people, but they really really weren’t. Meanwhile, Darth Dennis was anxious about wrapping up this move so he kept calling and wanting updates. Each time I had to be paged into the office the office assistants kept making small snide and giggly remarks, “oh, another phone call?” “back again? You must really want to get out of the warehouse,” and finally, “maybe you need to get your own phone” to which I looked puzzled and said, “You know that IS my phone, right? You’re borrowing my computer in my office. Unfortunately, I need you to move for a bit so I can send VP Darth Dennis an update to his spreadsheet.” The suck-a-lemon look on all their faces when I bumped her (figuratively) from my computer was a bit priceless.

    17. Windchime*

      I’m sure I’ve told this story before, but at exjob I had a friend named Betsy. She was eventually promoted to management and she was the manager from Hell. Literally. She had been run out of several departments before coming to ours, as it turns out.

      She bullied several people out of the department and fired a couple more. Eventually it became my turn and she bullied me out in a very mean way. Fast forward 6 months and there is an internal departmental investigation being conducted by HR and a friend tipped me off, so I wrote a letter to HR outlining all the terrible things she did to me. She was fired shortly thereafter, and now she can’t find a job so she sews little tote bags and sells them at craft shows. And is having to rent out her spare room.

      Karma. She is a good and faithful friend.

    18. motherofdragons*

      I don’t have any good stories to add, but this: “In my memory, she goes off into a corner and hunches over them, crooning, ‘Preciousss, my preciousss,’ but that is probably not what happened?”

      That is DEFINITELY what happened.

    19. Gatomon*

      Back in the dark days of 2011, I was in that awful post-college, pre-“launch” phase and struggling to get by at the local big box center. I got hired as a holiday temp and busted my tail all holiday season and managed to get kept on after Christmas. Never called out sick, accepted every extra shift they offered, always was working.

      One of the long-time department heads ended up getting a new job in early January, and decided to give a month’s notice so she could train her replacement. I was basically appointed to the position, and accepted. I needed the additional, steadier hours and pay bump.

      So the training began, all was well for a few weeks. But there were a few tasks I hadn’t been trained on, namely doing returns. All other department heads could authorize returns for the customer service desk, but I couldn’t and no one was mentioning doing it. (This should’ve been the first flag.) Then the schedule comes out for my trainer’s final few weeks. She wasn’t scheduled beyond February 1. She was pissed because she was counting on another week and a half at the store. I was listed as covering her sections for all her hours at that point.

      So I start doing her job and she departs. Another department head who’d been promoted a few months earlier mentions how nice the pay bump is. I find out he’s making almost $2/hour more than I was (minimum wage). I, being young and naive, had never discussed pay…. and when I brought it up, they told me there wasn’t money in the budget for “new” department heads.

      Now technically there were still an equal number of department heads as there were before February 1, but that was the start of the new fiscal year. (Second big red flag.) I got PO’d and sent out a flurry of apps.

      Time passes, I’m referred to as the department head and accountable to the district manager for my departments, but have no powers or pay increase. I gave up on job hunting and figured I’d have to move home by summer because I was buying TP on my credit card at this point and I was going to lose my cheap sublet when the owner got out of jail in July.

      Got a call out of the blue for an application I’d sent out in February, got hired and quit in the beginning of April right as two other seasoned employees walked out. They begged me to keep coming in on nights and weekends, but I refused because I’d found full-time work and didn’t see a reason to kill myself after getting screwed over.

      The entire time I’d worked at this place, it was mentioned that the property wasn’t owned by the big box, and that the company might not renew the lease. Well not 3 months after I quit, the store was closed and the property owners razed the whole complex to the ground for redevelopment.

    20. schadenfreude for this post*

      I think I have posted this one before…

      I was the Assistant Director in a dept for 5 years, and had a great boss. He gets a new job, out of state, and when he leaves, I’m promoted to Interim Director with the understanding that I would have to apply and interview for the position like everyone else. I. WORKED. MY. ASS. OFF for the entire 6 months – dropping everything and running back to work when the VP asked me to – no matter the time of day/night, hiring a mother’s helper to pick up my daughter on days my H worked late, so that I could work late (VP and AVP wanted to see that I could do the work while being a mom), got in early every day, ran myself ragged across the company, etc etc etc.

      Applied, interviewed, and became a finalist for the Director job. Knew I wasn’t a sure thing, so I made certain to prove myself during my time as interim and kicked ass during the interview. I also applied for a similar job at a local company, b/c everyone told me I needed a Plan B. Waited 1 week. Waited 2. Waited 3. Marched myself into my AVPs office (who was a terrible leader, BTW) and asked for an update. She finally told me that they had offered it to someone else who had more experience. I was CRUSHED.

      Turned out, they had NO intention of ever hiring me, and they wanted an outside person from the start. They just let me go through the entire process to be nice. New person starts while I’m a finalist for my Plan B job. New person is a NIGHTMARE. No one but the VP and AVP wanted her. She didn’t have more experience then me, actually – she had less. She never supervised a full staff before, never managed high-level work that was required of this position. She’s set to be my new boss, and tells me she is “so thrilled to be working together, aren’t we going to be besties and get along so well and OMG this will be SO FUN!” I am offered Plan B job, accept it, and give New Person my 2 weeks notice. She’s crushed and says to me “but who will train me on everything?” Not me!

      I go on to my new job, and within 6 months, old department falls apart. Everyone leaves, clients are complaining left and right, previously cultivated relationships fall apart. New Person is let go at the 1 year mark, and the company has to post and search all over again. Friend asks me if I’m going to re-apply and I just laugh.

  10. Today I'm Susan*

    Can you recommend the proper way to dress to present at a conference for educational professionals? I work remotely for a tech company and while I don’t work in my pajamas, I’m not a style maven. I really want to hit the whole presentation out of the park, and style is just not my forte. I’m assuming a dress is probably the most appropriate way to go, but I’m not even sure where I should start shopping. Any suggestions will be much appreciated!

    1. peachie*

      In my experience, the nice end of business casual is totally normal for both attendees and presenters at that kind of conference (somewhere between that and full-business attire–not sure how to describe it, but like, blazers, but in fun colors). That also depends on the type of presentation, though–is it a small breakout session or a keynote for thousands of people?

      1. Today I'm Susan*

        Definitely on the smaller end of things. I’m anticipating 30-50 people. I just spoke with my co-presenter and he’s planning to wear a suit.

    2. CheapEats*

      You don’t have to wear a dress. I worked in education for years and presented at plenty of conferences. I prefer tailored slacks, nice blouse, and jacket or sweater. A statement necklace helps too. You want to be comfortable while you’re presenting and if you don’t often wear dresses, that might not be the way to be the most at ease.

      1. Tara S.*

        A dress or ^this style would work well. You can add a blazer if you like, but it’s not required. For “cheaper” professional looks, I like: Banana Republic, Kohls, Loft. Target can be hit or miss these days, but sometimes good. Express and H&M sometimes have gems. Uniqlo has sharp looks at reasonable prices, but their styles have never suited my body. Steer clear of Modcloth – I love them but so often their stuff ends up being too short.

        1. KTM*

          H&M has surprised me on a number of occasions when it comes to professional attire. If you’re looking for just one outfit and don’t want to spend a lot, I’d suggest there. Statement necklaces are a great suggestion too. Wear dress pants and a solid top you already own (or a dress/skirt) and then a statement necklace + basic blazer – works like a charm. Avoid anything that you fidgit with or fuss over adjusting regularly.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a go-to black sheath dress that I wear for every presentation and client meeting I can. I bought it years ago at Ann Taylor and it’s flattering and comfortable. I pair it with a cardigan (any color) and season-appropriate footwear, and I don’t have to think too much about it because it’s black and comfortable. At my last conference, I wore it with a gray cardigan, black footless tights, and gray flats, and I wore a colorful scarf.

      A dress is easy because you only have to think about one part, rather than two as with separates. Pick a color that you like and flatters you, and a cut that flatters you. Go for something in which you don’t have to adjust yourself every five minutes. Buy something that goes with shoes you already own, so you don’t have to worry about breaking them in. Most of all, keep it simple and you will be fine.

      1. Birch*

        THIS. This is my everyday uniform as an academic and someone who goes to conferences a lot. It’s the one thing that’s always appropriate no matter the situation and looks just dressy enough and just casual enough to fit in anywhere.

        I will say the cut and fit of the dress is really important. I have several in this category but I’ve found that my favorite is a thick cotton, a simple sheath with no seams or darts at the waist, hits just above the knee. Short sleeves and a boat neck. It is SO COMFY and I bought it at H&M. Another tip: natural fabrics don’t hold BO like synthetics (stay away from polyester!) for when you get the nervous sweats or the AC is broken. To snazz it up, you can wear it with a blazer and to snazz it up even more, roll up the sleeves! Generally well made, simple clothes make a bigger impact, style-wise, and you can add a piece that you love as your statement, whether it’s the shoes or a scarf.

    4. fposte*

      I think nice trousers or a dress would be fine, but my main suggestion is to incorporate layers–conferences are freeze or fry occasions.

      2. Jules the Third*

        Yes to layers! Especially since jackets give such a nice polish to an outfit.

    5. Susan Sto Helit*

      Either a dress or trousers should be absolutely fine. It’s about what you’re presenting, not what you’re wearing.

      If you do buy something new though, make sure you thoroughly check what it’s like to sit down in – both in terms of comfort and, if it’s a dress, if the skirt is likely to ride up awkwardly. On stage at a conference is not the time to be finding that out.

    6. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      Wear flats :) Not much sitting at conferences.

      Dresses are easy, and a solid-color dress will always look put together. Make sure you can move around any way you want, and still feel completely comfortable. If you feel like you constantly have to pull the dress down or avoid strong winds or sit down reeeeally carefully or dress-tape a plunging neckline to your bra, you won’t feel confident.

      Sheath dresses look professional, but they are not for everyone. I’m all hips and can’t wear them. Good bets for other figure types are fit and flare (my go-to) or shift dresses.

      If you are presenting, wearing colors can be good. Blue is a good and safe bet there. It’s less flashy and fashion-risky than red, more eye-pleasing than black, and you should be able to find a shade that flatters.

      Add a scarf or some nice earrings or a statement necklace, if you want to run wild with it, but it’s not really necessary.

    7. Totally Minnie*

      If you’re actually interested in wearing a dress (not that you have to, but if you’d like to), Ross is my go-to store. They’ve usually got a lot of choices that would be work appropriate and budget friendly.

      1. PhyllisB*

        I ordered two dresses from Coldwater Creek this fall that I just love. One is a black knit cowl neck and the other is a purple sort-of-empire waist. It’s not exactly fitted like an empire, just has the waist line there. And they have POCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!! I love anything with pockets because I don’t like fooling with a purse if I can help it. They have lots of dress-up/dress-down options, and they’re fully lined so you don’t have to wear a slip and don’t have to worry about see-through effect under bright lights. If you’re interested, look on their website in the clearance section.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Comfortable enough not to worry about what you’re wearing. For different people this could mean:
      • New clothing more formal than what’s currently in their closet, because they don’t want to feel like the lost college intern who wandered into the wrong room.
      • Trousers and blouse, dress, or other formal-end-of-business-casual things in their wardrobe
      • New version of (b) for burst of style confidence, but sticking to variations on pieces they own and know work.

    9. epi*

      I have a uniform for this stuff because I am able to dress so casually most days. I got it all at Express but it’s the type of thing you could get lots of places depending on your size and budget.

      “Work pants” i.e. those drapey no-iron trousers similar to the Editor Pant. Drapey lady button down similar to the Portofino shirt. Done.

      Once you find an example that works for you, buy a few mix and matchable colors of each. If you think your dress code might sometimes require it, try to get the matching jacket with one of the pairs of pants. And don’t wear shoes you even suspect could ever come uncomfortable to a conference– you will probably walk much more than you think. I usually go with pointy flats. If you wear leather, this is a pair of shoes to pay for good leather.

    10. Emily K*

      YMMV, but I like to wear bold scarlet or azure dresses (or blouses, if doing a pant suit) when I’m a presenter. Similar to how those are “power colors” for men’s ties or dress shirts, it makes me feel like I’m better able to command the room and exude authority when I’m wearing a bold/power color.

    11. The Cleaner*

      I don’t think you need to wear a dress instead of pants — either would be fine, whichever you are more comfortable in. I’m an educational professional, and I tend to see presenters wearing one of the following: (I’m focusing on women’s attire)
      1. a suit (most formal)
      2. a dress, usually paired with a blazer, cardigan, or scarf or wrap
      3. a skirt and blouse or cardigan or classic sweater set (least formal)

      I have seen people present wearing the more casual versions of these (khaki pants, for example) but I know my boss experts a very slightly more formal/more polished style from presenters (as opposed to conference attendees) so I use that as my base.

      In my experience, even though I like to wear something like black pants and a gray sweater at my actual job, I choose to wear something more identifiable when I present because I find that it’s easier for people to seek me out if I’m “oh, the person who was wearing the purple dress” at other events at the conference instead of trying to find me in a crowd of people wearing black. Obviously if you have a black outfit you like, you could get this same effect by adding a brightly colored scarf or similar.

      The tech vendors who present on our campus, or at conferences I’ve attended, tend to dress a little more business-y than the educators, usually a suit or a blazer. If you are not comfortable in jackets or blazers, and are more of a sweater type, I would make it a more structured sweater to make sure the overall look is neat (as opposed to the floppy, lumpy cardigan that I am wearing now).

    12. Argh!*

      Watch some videos of people doing a similar presentation & take notes on the clothes.

    13. Kuododi*

      I can’t speak for your industry but in the mental health services, when I have attended CE training, the presenters typically wore nice business casual. (ie slacks, top and a cardigan or blazer, comfy dress that can be layered.). I have also facilitated small trainings and I have usually opted for the comfy dress with some nice accessories. I am quite prone to hot flashes and room temp for the training is a wild card so I usually bring a light sweater I can throw on over my dress and pull off if things get stuffy. Good luck!!

    14. Half-Caf Latte*

      You’ve gotten lots of good advice- I’ll echo the suggestions for something you feel comfortable in (especially shoes), and layers, and looking online- check social media, does last years’ conference have a hashtag?

      I will add- try to find out what your microphone situation will be. If you only have a lectern mic, it doesn’t matter much for dressing. If they’re planning to use lavalieres, you’ll want to think about 2 things. First, neckline: a big statement necklace or voluminous scarf might interfere with placement or send background noise into the mic. You also usually need an edge of clothing for a secure clip (hence why they’re also called lapel mics). Second, you need somewhere to store the transmitter/power box. The ones I’ve used generally clip to my waistband, and I’m not sure what they’d do for a dress, but I’m sure it’s been done! I’m not an AV expert, though.

  11. BirthdayWeek*

    Has anyone worked in an office where there has been a pattern of promises not being followed through?

    Our office hasn’t received our Holiday 2017 gift – a membership to a museum – and at this point it’s not looking likely. Other things have been promised to the employees; an improved lounge, early leave on Fridays, I personally haven’t received a signing bonus I was scheduled to get in March.

    None of these things impact the actual work that needs to be done, but it’s getting tiresome being told we’re getting something that never follows through. Any advice to cope with this annoyance?

    1. Susan K*

      OMG yes… At my old job, we had a running joke about a “book of broken promises.” We didn’t actually make a book, but one time we were talking about all the promises management had made and never fulfilled, and someone said that there were so many that we could fill a book. From then on, any time management made a promise we didn’t think they’d keep, we’d say, “That’ll be another page in the book of broken promises!”

    2. Manders*

      Oof, yes, this was a pattern at my old job, and part of the reason I started job hunting. I think you should get everything in writing and keep following up about that signing bonus, but accept that smaller things like the membership to the museum and the nicer lounge won’t be happening.

      I also think you should start thinking about how long your tenure at this place should be and whether/when you’re prepared to jump ship. A company that’s withholding stuff like signing bonuses is probably not going to be trustworthy with raises, promotions, and the other stuff that really matters.

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        Thanks for your advice. I do think it’s sort of telling what kind of company this is and how the CEO handles money (which has been traditionally not great.) Getting things in writing is paramount I’ve learned!

    3. anna green*

      ugh yes! My last job it was the same deal. We all joked about it too, until everyone found better jobs. The last straw for me was when they promised me a promotion (in writing) and never followed through. On to bigger and better things! (If you like your job otherwise, I would say just pretend they never say anything and assume it won’t happen. Or you could kindly, directly ask a manager you have a good relationship what the status is on certain things, but I dont hold out too much hope it’ll change anything.)

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        This is my biggest grievance with this job, so zooming out it’s not a total deal breaker. I am still relatively new to the work force, and given my current company’s size I will inevitably look for a different job so I can climb a ladder. Given it’s also my first job, I wasn’t sure how much in the norm this was, and sounds like it’s pretty common. Sorry to hear about your promotion – but glad you found ‘bigger and better’ things!

        1. Manders*

          I’ve only been in the workforce for ~7 years, but in my experience, it’s not so common that you should just accept this as the way of the world. It’s hard to change the culture of a specific company that’s fallen into this–but it’s a very valid reason to leave and find a place where you can trust management.

          1. BirthdayWeek*

            I agree, I think this says something about management and the culture. Thanks for your perspective, this whole thread is driving me to start a job search and your last sentence really summed up why that’s a good idea.

        2. anna green*

          I actually totally missed the signing bonus part on my first read through, that is a much bigger deal than the others! I would definitely follow up on that until it gets completed! And agree, if the company is doing this all the time, it would probably take a significant event to get any changes., so its probably a good idea to start looking or have a plan to start looking and not expect a long term career there.

          1. BirthdayWeek*

            Yes! I have been sending emails, but per the advice of this thread I’m going to schedule a meeting with my boss to get a clear date on when the bonus will come through. The other items are simply perks I’ll have to let go.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The bonus thing is HUGE. (I mean, the membership is a big deal too, but more annoying than anything else, I think.) Do you have an email or anything in writing outlining when you’re supposed to receive it? Have you spoken to anyone about it?

      This company sound… not so great.

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        I am really irked about the bonus, and it’s a driving force to keep following up. The CEO has to approve all expenses and he’s rarely in office, though I don’t know if his approval needs to be done in person. That would be a good thing to ask during my next round of reminder emails.

        The museum is mostly annoying because we don’t get end of the year bonuses, we get one ‘big’ gift and this year, the membership was that gift. I work in a large city and the museum is world-renowned plus comes with city-wide perks. In fact my boyfriend offered to get me the membership for my birthday (he’s probably sick of me complaining about it, ha!)

        1. WellRed*

          I can’t think of any reason the CEO has to physically be in the office to approve a bonus. DOn’t send your boss another reminder email, ask her for a meeting to ask her when this is going to get done. A singing bonus is a big deal for them to not follow through on.

          1. BirthdayWeek*

            Thank you for your advice! I will do that. Glad to know my annoyance is more than justified.

  12. FaintlyMacabre*

    I received a rejection email yesterday from the job I really wanted. I am not terribly surprised, as about half the interview was about how you needed experience (which I don’t have) to do well in the job. (I asked the question about what distinguishes a good employee and a great employee in the position and the answer was experience.)

    What was surprising was that I received a message from one of the people I interviewed with. In it, she wrote she wasn’t sure what the hiring decision had been, but that there would be another position opening up as she intends to leave soon. I’m kinda confused. Does this mean maybe I was in the top two? Or am I reading to much into it? Can I ask her what she knows about the hiring decision?
    I will apply again, I guess, but my cover letter was pretty darn great. The idea of trying to write another good one for the same position so soon kinda makes my soul shrivel.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ask her for more information! What is the position and why does she think you would be a good fit?

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        It’s a team of three people, so it would be the same position that I’d previously applied for.

        1. [insert witty username here]*

          I would just tweak your current cover letter. At the beginning say that you applied for the previous open position and you’re still very interested, for the same reasons! You could even say that you’re including much of your previous cover letter in case someone different is reading them. Then if the same person reads it, they won’t think you’re being lazy.

    2. Clairels*

      Why would they bother to interview you in the first place if “experience” is the only thing that matters and You don’t have any?

  13. CheapEats*

    Survey time! Think about the best company or project you’ve ever worked on. What made it stand out for you?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      I was doing actual good in the world, even though the company was not in that business overall.

      Specifically, it was a project to develop a recycling and donation program for old laptops, in a large company that generated a lot of old laptops. I learned so much, sent a lot of cleaned-up computers to poor schools, and kept a crap-ton of toxic computer innards out of landfill. Man, if I could do that again I’d jump on that job in a heartbeat.

    2. Jadelyn*

      The best project I’ve worked on was the Timesheet Conversion Disaster of 2016. It opened with the VP of our department coming to me and saying “Jadelyn, I need you to save the day again!” He was prone to hyperbole though, so I figured this was another relatively minor thing that he just needed quick turnaround on. Spoiler: it was not minor. It did, however, require very quick turnaround.

      We were mid-implementation on a new HRIS, including a timesheets module. We were still using the timesheets module from our old vendor while we worked on setting up the new one. Then, in mid-March, the old vendor told us they were shutting down our access on March 31. Meaning we had 2 weeks to get the new system up and running, or find an alternative to tide us over.

      I dropped *everything* else off my plate – with my manager’s blessing – and dedicated those two weeks to configuring the new timesheet system, building an Excel-based workaround to tide us over for a few days between the end of March and our go-live date on April 2nd, and developing and presenting trainings to 250 staff on how to use both of those.

      On the Excel end, I build timesheets that would let people punch in and out, round people’s punches correctly, require and log a manager’s approval of the finished timesheet, send itself to me, calculate hours and OT for us (which is more irritating than it sounds because I work in California, so we get daily OT), and spit out a summary of hours by pay code in a format that our payroll system could read. I’d never done that much VBA scripting before, so it was a hell of a crash course!

      On the system end, I worked with our SME assigned by the new vendor to get all our pay codes in and configured, set up access groups, conditional rules, all kinds of fun stuff, plus testing it for a few days with my own clocking in/out and recruiting a handful of other hourly staff to do the same.

      This was also my first experience building and presenting staff trainings, so that was pretty nerve-wracking. There were a total of 4 trainings: time entry in the new system for hourly staff, same for exempt staff, editing and approving timesheets in the new system for supervisors, and then all of the above for the Excel sheets. But in the end, it all went off pretty much without a hitch! I was the hero of the hour, I was obscenely proud of the technical skills I’d had to mostly teach myself during those couple weeks, and while it was horribly stressful it was also very exciting and the success at the end made it ALL worth it.

      (I offered to share my trainings and the Excel timesheet and its associate scripts with my counterpart at our parent company. They declined, and instead hired in a temp to manually process paper timesheets for their 300 employees for 2 months while they continued their system configuration and implementation on the timesheet module at the regular pace. It was really validating, being able to look at that and say “see what kind of headache I just prevented us having to deal with?”)

    3. Happy Lurker*

      Best company I ever worked for was a non-profit subsidiary of a university. It had amazing benefits, awesome PTO and my favorite boss of all time. She made all the difference in an otherwise fairly regular job. Oh, the good old days.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      From late 1998 to 2001, I worked in a small materials testing lab. It was part-time and paid minimum wage ($7.00 an hour at the time). I was the receptionist/office clerk. We tested oil and paint for the railroads, did metallurgy testing for various clients including one in India that employed a friend of the owner, and soil and water testing for local municipalities and environmental remediation companies.

      There were maybe 10 of us total. We would often close the office and walk to a nearby bar for lunch. We played jokes on each other (benign ones like putting a giant rubber squeaky rat on top of people’s lunches in the fridge and a six-foot Frankenstein’s monster cutout behind doors). Someone gave one of the chemists a little stuffed duck. We named him Bertram and put him on the org chart and I made him a little felt coat, tiny wire glasses, and a little desk out of a shoebox. They taught me how to do water pH tests in case samples came in after they’d left, which sometimes happened, because you needed to test the samples right away. That’s where I learned about stir bars, which are so fricking cool. I also did Igor work–washing glassware, checking the cooler temperatures, and preparing sample bottles.

      I reorganized 32 cabinets of environmental files in the basement. I was allowed to work on this project for as long as it took, downstairs with my boom box (this was before I had an iPod). After the boss’s wife sadly passed away unexpectedly, he closed down the environmental portion of the business, which essentially eliminated my job. He kept it going for a while with the railroad and metallurgy testing, but eventually he closed the business and retired. I was in between jobs later and went back in to help shut them down. I scored an entire box of multicolored file folders (I will never need to buy another folder as long as I live), several plants from the office that I still have (the best one, a giant ponytail palm, died during the ice storm in 2007, dammit), my little oak desk and the printer table that went with it, and a cool stainless-steel top lab table (it’s in my garage).

      I LOVED that job. I loved it. If that place were still open and the job paid more, had benefits, and were full-time, I’d have worked there a lot longer. It was fine while I was going to school, but eventually I would have had to earn more money.

      I’m sad about the ponytail palm. It belonged to the boss’s wife, who was awesome. The thing was over three feet tall and was too heavy for me to move; sitting in a 20-degree house for two weeks did it in. :( The rest of my plants came from OldExjob. After they decided not to pay the vendor who took care of the plants, they were just going to let them die so I took a bunch of them home.

      Oh, I still have Bertram and the rat!!

    5. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Any of my projects involving wastewater treatment because we would not be able to have a heathly populace without them.

      Otherwise, actually, I hate all of them. (Yes, I’m in one of *those* moods.)

    6. Beancounter in Texas*

      The best company for which I ever worked stood out because of my boss (the owner). I got my own office with a pretty partner’s desk (that I didn’t have to share) and my boss’ attitude was “Work when you want. If you don’t feel like working one day and want to go play golf, make sure everyone is paid on time and go play golf! Just answer the phone when I call.” I did take him up on the mental health days at least twice and I rarely stressed over my hour long commute in the morning. Also, the dress code was casual, but not ratty.

    7. Piano Girl*

      I worked for a Japanese air flight school. We had sushi every week for only a $3 charge. It was great!

  14. Alternative Person*

    I ran right into an issue at my workplace again today. I couldn’t say anything to my co-workers because I didn’t to risk starting a very public disagreement and when I raised it with my manager he decided to play the ‘Well they’re doing this, but you did this thing’ card (I slipped up and said ‘What the hell are you doing’ to a young client’). I replied, I understand I’ll watch my language more, but this issue is different. He hemmed and hawwed and did the placating thing. I had to do something else but I was glad to get out of that convesation. I am so ready to be done with this place.

  15. AnonForThis*

    Do you have work friends? How do you make work friends? I can believe I’m even asking this…

    I’m at a higher-level position, and have been in this role for almost 2 years. My division is HUGE, but the director level (my level) is smaller. Most directors have been here for 10+ years, worked their way up, and know each other very well. Most of us are older, married or with long-time partners, most have kids. I don’t really have a work friend, and I’m struggling to find one. Maybe I’m thinking about this from a younger professionals perspective, and work friends aren’t really a thing once you reach higher levels anymore?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I think it depends on your definition of work friends. I’ve had a spectrum of work friends – from people I could go vent to or bounce ideas off of in an informal way to people that I genuinely care for and see outside of work on a somewhat regular basis. I think having the latter is less important that having the former. Do you have anyone at work who you might consider a confidant?

      If not, consider finding someone whose advice you’d like on a small matter and start from there.

      1. AnonForThis*

        I have people I vent to, definitely. One is a director, so at a peer level, which is helpful. I don’t have anyone that I’d see outside of work, though. I got spoiled at my last job, where I had someone my age, similar interests, and we did social things occasionally – even if it was just go grab lunch outside on campus during a break.

    2. Morning Glory*

      I don’t try to make work-friends, but my organization has a few great programs in place for people who are interested in that kind of thing. language-learning or other lunch-hour clubs that skirt the line between hobby and professional development (graphic design, taking better photos, etc.
      These can be a nice, safe way for people from different teams and levels to socialize while still seeming semi-relevant to work. These are often organized organically rather than via HR – maybe you could try to start one up?

    3. Chupalupe*

      What I’ve found helpful is setting up “getting to know your department” chats if that makes sense? I invite someone for a brainstorm session for 45 minutes (assuming you have a couple of other directors where their work intersects with yours). I explicitly state that this is meant to be very informal and chat about goals and potential synergies. I’ve found that they’re pretty helpful (if you’re talking to the right kind of people who would appreciate that, but that’s probably who you want for your work friends!), but also because they’re so informal, it’s easy to get to know people better. Follow up in 4-6 weeks checking in on whatever you’ve accomplished or however they were helpful, and invite them out to coffee.

    4. Susan Sto Helit*

      I don’t have work friends, but I do have industry friends – people who are at about my same level but work for different companies. We met through networking, but now hang out independently. It’s really great sometimes to be able to talk through your problems with someone who gets it, but is also an outsider.

      (caveat: I guess when you get too senior talking about any work problems with someone also in the industry becomes a big no-no, but luckily (unluckily?) I’m not there yet).

    5. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      I was in a higher level position at my old job, and I didn’t really have work friends there. My boss and one of my higher level coworkers from another department were pretty chummy, but everyone else was much older than me and we didn’t really have common interests, so I never made any work friends. I actually had more in common with some of the people who I managed than my higher level coworkers. But, I didn’t want to become friends with the people I managed, so yeah…maybe work friends are more difficult to find as you work your way up the ladder.

    6. epi*

      I do, and it’s almost exclusively people I get thrown together with repeatedly. My actual work is too independent, and I’m too reserved on top of it, for anything else. The size of the department doesn’t matter to me– it’s the size of the group of people I have weekly meetings with so we can slowly build up a relationship. That is the real pool of potential friends.

      I don’t know what types of people you gravitate to, but also consider whether the people you like best might be kind of reserved themselves. I almost never ask people to come with me if I go get coffee (maybe I should though), but I nearly always say yes if invited. If you otherwise get the vibe that someone enjoys your company, extend some low stakes invitations like that yourself.

    7. Safetykats*

      One of the things I am loving about having stepped down a level in my current job is having work friends again. Being too friendly with the folks who work for you is really problematic – so the pool of potential friends definitely shrinks as you move up. If you can’t find someone at your level that you click with, does your company have a mentoring program? Maybe getting involved with mentoring some younger folks would be a good thing. Those relationships can be a little friendlier than traditional management – staffer relationships, since you’re meant to be closer to people you’re mentoring (or being mentored by).

  16. MuseumChick*

    Well, I got chewed out pretty badly at work the other day for reason that I had less than 10% control over. I think this place has broken me. I’m thinking about leaving a field I spend 6 years of my life dedicated to.

    1. starsaphire*

      No advice, but plenty of hugs!

      Hoping you can find a better opportunity in your field before you are forced to give it up!

    2. nep*

      Why do you have to leave the field? Could you get away from this workplace that has burdened you and stay in the field?
      Sorry you’re having to face some rough times.

    3. MuseumChick*

      Thanks guys. Jobs in my field can be very hard to come by. It’s not uncommon to hear of people apply to 100 jobs before landing something. I have a lead on a job outside the field that, given my current work environment, I am really considering.

      1. Emily S.*

        I’m really sorry. It’s not right to blame you like that for the issue. Just think about what would be best for you long-term (5-10 years or so). Perhaps you could earn more elsewhere, and find fulfilling work.

        Good luck.

      2. Overeducated*

        Consider it, there is life outside the museum field and it can be good. There are things I and my friends who left miss, but the advancement potential, pay, and lack of certain kinds of dysfunction can be worth it (though my current sector has different flavors of dysfunction entirely, haha). You don’t have to leave but you wont regret exploring options.

    4. irene adler*

      I am so sorry you were treated like this. It’s not right. As I’m sure you well know, there’s more productive ways to handle work place errors- assuming you had made one.
      The behavior is very much a reflection of their character-certainly not yours.

      The hell with them.
      Best revenge is to do well – at another company. Ideally their rival. Use AAM as much as you can to do this.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am so sorry.

      Is there a way you can stand up for yourself? Can you insist on changes that would prevent the problem from occurring again?
      Maybe this happens too often and you are exhausted from trying to stand up for you or protect yourself.

      I see it takes a lot to get a job in this field. I am wondering if your place or boss has a rep such that if you tried people would be eager to hire you. I have seen people hire just to rescue people from known bad bosses. But I have also seen people hire because employees at a particular place are considered to be above average. I know myself, when I am feeling like I just got kicked in the teeth, I don’t see stuff like this. I hope I can encourage you to look around and see if you can find these subtle under currents going on.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Unfortuntly, I don’t think there is. I’ve tried in the past and it never gets me anywhere good. Basically, I was hired to be an expert but they are uninterested in listening to what I have to say or in even letting me do my job. Instead they throw me into random projects because we are very understaffed so things fall through the cracks.

        Oh, and my boss straight up made up a conversation we had. He claims I said something that I would never, ever say. It had to do with right to a photo someone wanted to reproduce. He claims “months ago” I told him we had the rights to it. This never happened, I’ve been asked about this particular photo multiple times and have always said we do not have the rights to it.

  17. AnonAnon*

    I think I’ve written about this here recently, so apologies for double dipping… I’m still struggling and need more advice!

    I’m struggling with some burnout, and a big part of the reason is my growing sense that I can’t count on (a lot) of my coworkers. This is pervasive across my division and ranges from my coworker who only checks email once a week so always takes at least that long to respond; an admin who routinely leaves people off meeting invitations or forgets to book a room when she schedules a meeting; another colleague who claims he didn’t get a report draft I sent him two weeks ago and therefore hasn’t moved it forward to its next iteration; and my boss, who still hasn’t given me a 500-word piece of writing I need for a mailing that we were supposed to send in April.

    It leaves me feeling like I have to do everything myself, or at the very least that in order for my projects to succeed I have to track and follow up with everything. And that’s both exhausting and frustrating. Why am I the one who has to hold it all down? I don’t think this is supposed to be my job; I’m nobody’s boss and I’m nobody’s assistant.

    But maybe that’s just what I need to do – reframe how I think about my work to include very detailed follow-up, nagging, checking in, etc. But does anyone have any other suggestions?

    1. El Camino*

      Oh man, no words of wisdom, just commiseration. I’ll be following this thread – I just commented below with a similar frustration, so I can empathize with you. Sounds like you wear a lot of hats as well. It’s definitely a struggle when you try to be on top of things only to see others drop the ball, especially when it directly impacts your work. Solidarity!

      1. AnonAnon*

        Good luck!

        I do wear a lot of hats — that’s definitely part of the problem. I manage Program A and Division-wide Initiative B, and have a role on Program C (which is managed by my boss, mentioned above). In a couple of months I’m transitioning off Initiative B, which will help significantly in terms of the number of little things I’m juggling. But the main struggle is on my own program (because that’s where I’m responsible for ensuring everything is done well, even as my coworkers constantly drop the ball).

    2. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      I’m not sure, but I totally get the stress. It’s not necessarily from having to sometimes do other people’s jobs for them. It’s from the constant state of alert, because you can’t just relax and assume things will get done. It makes everything into a loose end.

      2. fretnone*

        Oh, so much commiseration. That sense that no one’s got your back but if it falls it falls on you is so pervasive.

        In my case I’ve tried raising the issue to be told many times, yes, we understand, that is Not Okay, then nothing changes and you just keep doing the same old thing to carry on – it’s exhausting. And knowing it’s not going to change – bleh.

        I’m just trying to practice good self-care because of the personal toll it’s taken, and trying so hard to reframe that this is just the way it is, and the best I can make of it is to do my damned best – the good thing is that all the forced-upon responsibility and constant vigilance to keep things running is a skill and an experience which in the end is a net positive I can take from this to help get into my next role. (where please please please it will not be the norm!!)

    3. Alternative Person*

      Could you include ‘I did my part, other people dropped the ball’ in your reframe?

      My boss seems to have delegated responsibility of some things to me without giving me actual control over how things actually happen and one of my strategies for coping has been saying to myself, ‘I have completed my part, set all the parameters, done my goddamn job’ anything that happens/doesn’t happen now is in the court of other people (people I am willing to throw shadily under the bus (I can’t afford open conflict due to needing to keep my boss onside for other reasons)).

      I’d also say, if it won’t affect your performance reviews/job/safety of yourself & others, you could make a rule that something gets a limited number of follow-ups before you let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes you have do draw a line under how much you can put into your job before you burn out. Sometimes that means doing your part/due diligence and then saying, ‘My part of the circus is fine, look in on the other monkeys’.

      1. AnonAnon*

        Yes, this is helpful.

        I mentioned in a comment above that I currently play three roles: I manage Program A and Initiative B, and I play a role on Program C. What you’re describing is the approach I’ve shifted to taking with Program C. So, for example — my boss never sent me the writing piece needed for the communication? I guess the communication won’t go out.

        But for the other two? I’m accountable for them. So if the admin forgets to send the invitation to all of the program participants who are supposed to be at a session, my program fails.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      It’s exhausting to have to chase everything. But some places are just like that. Some times becoming known as “the person who will not relent until you get what you want” is enough to scare people into doing their stuff for you. Sometimes you get into a place where there always seems to be something more important. If your in the latter, you’ll need a new job if you care about results.
      But just know, you’re not alone.

      1. AnonAnon*

        Thank you. I’m appreciating this thread so much, both for the solidarity and for the clarity it’s bringing me.

        For example: reading your comment, I realized that it’s not just that things don’t get done — it’s also that I can’t trust them to be done right. For example — I can follow-up endlessly with the admin to make sure she sends the invitation, but unless I literally sit with her while she does it I can’t make sure that she includes all the right people.

        1. BRR*

          This sounds very similar to my situation. Depending on the context I do one or more of the following:
          1) Just do it myself. It sucks that I have to because people can’t do the basic functions of their jobs but sometimes things need to get done.
          2) Communicate by whatever means necessary. If you don’t want me to call you or stop by your desk, check your email more than once week.
          3) Provide feedback and corrections. I’m pretty sure one of my coworkers is sick of me pointing out errors but if you continue to make the same big mistakes you’re lucky you’re not on a PIP.
          4) Follow Alison’s advice on how to tell a manager someone isn’t doing their job.

    5. Susan K*

      I feel for you. I often have the same problem with not being able to count on my coworkers to do what they’re supposed to. I’ve gotten myself stuck in a vicious cycle where I know that someone is going to let me down, so I just do it myself rather than wait for the person to let me down (because it’s often more convenient to do it proactively than rush to compensate for what didn’t get done or fix something that was done incorrectly). But that makes people assume that I am just going to do it myself, so then they are even more likely to let me down.

    6. BlueWolf*

      I identify with a lot of this for sure, particularly people not doing their part of the work, which holds up my work. I just have to keep telling myself that there’s only so much I can do and if people don’t do their work that’s on them. It is definitely frustrating to have to remind people to do their jobs. Sometimes it’s tempting to just let people drop the ball, but then I feel like that will ultimately come back to bite me somehow :/

      1. AnonAnon*

        Is it normal that most folks just… don’t do what they’re supposed to do (either by literally not doing it, or by doing it wrong)?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I tend to think so.

          I hired a lawyer for a personal matter and we got to chatting about that matter. Finally he blurts out, “I don’t do law. What I do is call up other people and explain to them how to do their jobs!” I busted out laughing because that was the exact solution for the problem I was asking him about. He called up my problem person’s legal department and their legal called my problem person. Problem solved.

          I had been working at one job for a while. It seems that after we have been at a job for a while we start seeing all. the. problems. I started framing non-responses as a challenge to be met on two levels: grace and effectiveness.

          In some cases, I used humor. Don’t do this if you don’t have a good sense of humor. Don’t do this if the OTHER PERSON does not have a good sense of humor. Humor works on rare occasions.

          Sometimes offering to help them with getting what you need works. That scares them into doing it themselves OR they actually do need some help. Don’t do this with slackers.

          Sometimes you can ask the boss for help. Especially if it’s in another department. Usually I never had to ask for assistance again with that particular slacker. BUT it could be the Other Department has a culture of ignoring Your Department. In cases like this getting the two bosses to thrash it out is a good idea.

          Sometimes you can say, “If I do not hear from you by Thursday, I will figure that Doing A is okay and I will just go ahead and do it.” This can cause The Dead to pick up their feet and run to get what you need.

          Still other times, you can set expectations. “I am going to need this by Thursday so I will come by Wednesday to [remind you, see if you need help, see how things are going]. This is part of my Nice Nuisance Strategy. Be polite, be thoughtful but set a time frame and do what it is you say you will do at each point in the time frame. Be sure to add in things like, “I know X is a real bother, I am sorry I have to ask for X.” “I know you are busy but WE have a deadline here….”

          I used “WE” a lot. It’s inclusive, obviously. But it seems to help with their mindset, “WE need this.” Never underestimate people’s desire to be a part of a group and part of a group effort. When you take an “us” and a “they” and add them together to make a “we”, you can soften some hard messages. “We really need the X report by Thursday.”

          Ask people how best to remind them. Especially the people who have the info that is the most critical or the people who are slowest to respond. You might be surprised by the answers you get. Be sure to do what they tell you. IF they fail to respond this give you an additional talking point: “Bob, I sent you an email because I thought you said that was the best way to give you reminders. Did I miss something?”

          Honestly, this stuff is more work than the work itself. Line up some tools, as these examples here, and chose what you think will work best for each person and situation. Taylor your solutions each time.

        2. designbot*

          To different degrees… yes. I work with one person who just never does what he says he’ll do. What I’ve learned is happening is that ‘yes’ is his default answer to everything, but then when it actually comes time to do the things he assesses and prioritizes like anyone else—the ‘yes’ isn’t real at all! Once I learned to stop taking that ‘yes’ literally, I was able to work around him a lot better.
          Other people I work with are better about it, but this still happens to some degree. They often intend to do the thing, but then when it comes down to it something else gets in the way. But for a normal person that’s like 10–20% of the things. For the colleague I mention above that’s like 70% of the things. I’d recommend trying to spot the patterns in this and see if you can find where things are going wrong, see if you can reframe your approach.

        3. NoTurnover*

          Yeah, I think that’s normal. People who do what they say they’re going to do on time and correctly are like gold. When you run into them, cherish them, promote them, hire them, buy them coffees.

          Now, there’s normal followup and ridiculous followup, but it makes sense to just expect that everything will require some followup. I try not to let my annoyance kick in until I’ve followed up 2-3 times via different communication methods.

          Ideally the admin would require less follow up since you are delegating things to her, and yeah, you shouldn’t have to sit over her shoulder to make sure she does it right. If you have any authority, may you can work on her with those things.

  18. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

    Going anonymous for this, I would love to pick everyone’s brains for three questions—and thank you in advance if you answer!

    First off, I’ve been put on a PIP. Some of it is fair: I needed to work on my coding speed, and I think I’ve already resolved that. The second part is much closer to impossible, as he thinks that I should be performing at a senior developer level after only 2 years at the company and minimal mentorship (and only recently have I been able to study on my own at home due to health issues). I’m doing all of this for the first time: gathering requirements, creating a design document, holding meetings with the internal customer, writing code of a higher complexity from scratch, and more with minimal support and having never even EXPERIENCED this process happen before. (Also, I’m being held to a schedule when I’ve never been trained on how to do them and have no clue how accurate it is.) He’s going to be looking over my code and giving me feedback, which I do welcome—except he hasn’t kept up with how the language we use has been progressing. I really like my boss as a person, though. All of this has at least let me realize that I WILL be able to get to that level, just not yet. What do I do? Am I wrong in thinking this is all unreasonable?

    Secondly—I’ve decided to not hedge my bets and am actively looking for a new position. I’m also looking partially because this is too far away from home, so I can only study up minimally on my own due to being too tired at night. Ideally, I would get a position on a team to have more access to senior developers and seeing the development life cycle occur. I want a place I can grow. How do I address the reason I’m leaving?

    Thirdly—my family doesn’t know about the PIP but know I’m actively looking, and think I need to start hitting all the job posts immediately. However, I don’t think this is a good idea because interviewers are now asking questions to newer developers like me about material I haven’t seen in a while or haven’t learned yet, and I need to prepare. I also need to prepare for behavioral questions and practice interviewing. This is something I plan on being done with in a couple of weeks at most, but I’m worried that I might fail interviews that I would have blown away with a bit more preparation if a company moves too quickly. My cover letters/resumes tend to get a fast response time, and I’ve already failed out of at least one interview if not two because of lack of time for prep work. Do I just start applying or wait?

    1. Canarian*

      On the third point, I would say start applying. You might blow some of the first interviews, but you might also do fine and get the job. There’s not really a harm in applying sooner and doing whatever prep work you can while you’re waiting to hear if you got an interview.

      Also, one of the best ways I’ve found to get better at interviewing is practice. Assuming your fears are realized and you do just bomb a bunch of interviews right away, at least you got valuable experience and practice out of them, and your later interviews will be better for it.

      1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

        Well, I guess can start applying this weekend and work hard on reviewing. I’m also going to build up my Github profile because I don’t really have one yet and that’s becoming an expectation. The amount of stuff I need to review is pretty intense, but I think I can do it.

        Failing interviews won’t take me out of the running permanently years down the road, will they? I’ll be more experienced then.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Not at all. I interviewed at a “big N” tech company (okay it was Facebook) and I was NOT ready and felt like I bombed hard. They called me up unprompted a little over a year later and asked if I was interested in interviewing again because they thought I was probably ready with a year more experience. Unfortunately I had spent the previous year definitely not coding so I ended up declining because I knew it wasn’t going to go better and I had just been offered my current job.

          But basically unless you do something truly appalling (like, do not insult the interviewer’s mom) you will still be in the running in the future. Companies understand that people get better.

          1. Wendy Darling*

            HAVING SAID THAT some companies that hire developers into a huge pool and then dole them out to teams rather than hiring directly onto specific teams will not let you apply again until it’s been 6-12 months. So be aware of that.

            1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

              That’s good to know. Thank you! I’m glad to here that it won’t put me out of the running permanently, even if it might mean temporarily for some companies. … now just to get a job for this go around.

              1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

                Actually, this helped out more than I thought initially. This was my biggest fear! I just needed to read another person saying what I thought was likely the truth. Thank you so much!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Well, as far as why you’re leaving your current job, when asked just say exactly what you typed. “I want to join a team that is intentional about mentoring newer developers. I want to have more access to senior developers and a chance to see the development life cycle occur. I want a place I can grow.” You can add that you didn’t get much of that in your current position and while you tried, there’s only so far you can go on your own without guidance from your manager or a mentor, and you feel that staying with your current company may cause you to fall behind in the long term. But that may be a little too much info.

      1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

        I was thinking something along those lines, actually! Maybe a bit shorter. I’m definitely falling behind my peers that are receiving that sort of mentorship, and I need to catch up.

    3. Lawyer Anon*

      OP – I don’t know your family so you know best as to what information to make them privy too or not. However, if you have a functional relationship with your family – you might get a huge relief from telling your family about this. Allow yourself to get some love and be supported. There’s nothing to be afraid of- family should be there for you even if you have hiccups at your job. (Again, I know not every family lives up to this standard so if there’s serious reasons why you would not share this information, go with your gut.)

      1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

        My family is incredibly supportive. I’ve just never failed in this magnitude before, and I’m worried they might see me as a failure. Which… I know they might be disappointed but they’ll help me succeed. Part of my problem is that I don’t know how to ask for support, I guess. But that’s way beyond the scope of AAM.

        I really should tell them. It WOULD be a huge relief if I didn’t have to hide the truth from them. … oops, now I’m in tears almost at my desk. Time to see what techniques work on stopping that.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think you’ve really failed though? It sounds like your boss has bizarro expectations, which isn’t actually under your control, and the fact that you can’t meet them isn’t a reflection on you.

          1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

            Yeah, I’m having to come to terms with that. I’ve managed to rise the occasion of bizarro expectations before, but now I’m faced with tasks that actually can only be properly solved by an experienced developer (or a intermediate developer ACTIVELY BEING COACHED by a senior lead). You’re right; I need to treat myself more kindly, especially since I know these requirements are insane because the sizes of the projects are just too big for someone of my experience level.

        2. ArtK*

          Here’s something that I can hope you can manage to do: Change your thinking about this. You have not failed. Any failing here is on the part of your boss and the company, not you. I’ll explain in excruciating detail…

          First, my bona fides: I’ve been doing software development since we called this business “data processing” and you had to know whether the cards went into the machine 9-edge or 12-edge first. Well over 30 years.

          They’re asking you to do what’s really the jobs of several people, each with specialized skills and experience. Project management (managing the schedule), requirements gathering and management, high level design, low level design and coding. I do all of that on a regular basis, but couldn’t possibly have done it just 2 years into my career. I’ve taken formal training in those and there are lots of subtleties and tricks-of-the-trade for each of them; that’s not something you pick up in 2 years. The fact that you’re getting no training, no support and have limited reference information is a total failure on the company’s part. Your boss’ expectations are completely out of line.

          As far as the coding speed, given how skewed the boss’ expectations are about everything else, I’d take that one with a grain of salt. Or the entire Salzkammergut. It’s wonderful that you’ve made strides to improve that, but I really doubt you were that bad to begin with. Side note: Coding speed means nothing if you’re producing stuff that fails test and requires tons of rework. I’d much rather have a coder who is a tad on the slow side but does quality work, than one who speeds through a task and causes tons of issues downstream. The cost of fixing something goes up by an order of magnitude each step further down the process.

          TL;DR: You’re not failing. Find an employer who will treat you right.

          1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

            Thank you so much for this comment. I sort of knew all of this myself, but it really helps to hear it from someone with more experience. Your words are a huge sanity check.

            Also, you’re exactly correct: I’m basically being asked to do the job of a business analyst/systems engineer, project manager, software architect, senior software engineer, and quality assurance engineer/tester for this project. I know there’s a lot of training and knowledge that I don’t have. He’s also rushing me through every single step and expecting me to completely code what should really take me three months or so in only a month. (Also holding me to my schedules when I’ve never been taught HOW to schedule is a huge middle finger if you ask me.)

            Yeah, my coding speed could be a bit faster than what it was without sacrificing quality, so that part is fair. The problem is that the speed he WANTS me to code at is definitely going to cause those exact problems you’re mentioning; I don’t have the experience/knowledge to design code for mid-sized programs. I’m a bit of a slow coder, but my code tends to be more correct. Except I messed up ONCE with a delivery (we have no testers) because I did something stupid with Git and accidentally erased a bit of code but it still compiled. The senior devs have had stuff fail before in testing with a client, but I don’t see either of them put on a PIP with it.

            Thank you so much–I believe I will find someplace better! I’ll look for someone who has reasonable expectations for my level of experience and will look to invest in teaching me more. I know there are definitely employers around like that. I just have to apply to it.

            1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

              … also I just realized part of the reason why this is happening. The customer got angry over the bug (they have a test environment and that’s what test environments are for, for crying out loud) and started demanding to know what our testing procedures were, how it was tested, what we’re doing to prevent it in the future, etc. Fun fact: we have no test procedures. None. Nothing. Nada. We don’t even have testers, and it was something a tester definitely would have caught. He didn’t even test my code himself and let a juniorish person deliver code straight to the customer. So I’m the fall girl because they don’t have good engineering practices and didn’t have the experience to expect the customer would do something like they did with their environment. Swell.

              Also, there’s a guy being transitioned out of his job that would make a perfect tester and be a proper thorn in all of the developers’ sides, happily finding all the different ways to break our code. Except they’re just paying him to sit there. He wants to do the work. He even went to my boss to say he did after we talked about it since it’s something we’re lacking. But, nah.

    4. Annie Moose*

      With regards to #1, some of that sounds reasonable and some definitely sounds like a stretch to do on your own without any guidance. I don’t think two years in is too short to start having meetings with internal clients, writing design docs, etc. for smaller projects, but it definitely would be difficult to do from scratch without having resources to look over or someone to help you prepare, or if you’re being expected to do these things for large projects right away. (at OldJob, we were expected to participate in these things pretty early on, but we generally worked with other developers for our first few projects at least to get us going)

      I don’t know your situation specifically, of course, but it sounds like the problem might not be so much the expectations in and of themselves, but that you aren’t getting the support you need to help you reach those expectations. Are there resources you can look at to give you guidance, even if it’s not an actual person to mentor you? e.g. previous design documents or requirements documents, to get a picture of what usually is in them and how they’re formatted? Even if you don’t work closely with them much, are there other developers you can ask questions to?

      For what it’s worth, as somebody who got laid off last year in part because I was the worst performer in my department–this doesn’t mean you’re a bad developer or whatever. It’s just not the right environment for you. I ended up finding another company where I have done SO MUCH BETTER–in my case, I really struggled with getting work done and hitting deadlines when I was working on my own. At my new company, we work more closely with each other and are more visible about our work and deadlines, which has helped me immensely. I always was so guilty at my old job for being “bad” at it–but it turned out it was really just a mismatch with the kind of environment I need. So maybe all you need is to find a company that has a better environment for you: one where you work more closely with senior developers, perhaps?

      1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

        I’m definitely not being given enough resources to brainpower. I’ve been able to use old documents which have been a great help. I’ve been able to ask other developers and colleagues help for more individual tasks or questions. But they’ve got their own deadlines for other projects and can’t offer too much support. I’ve also… never seen the design process at all. Just been given stuff to code, almost always on my own. And this project is now completely on my own from start to finish with my boss finally offering some guidance. It would be just fine if I was more experienced, but half the time I don’t even know what to ask about in order to get something done. And I’m definitely not experienced at software architecture at all!

        It’s basically the same for me as it was for you—an environment mismatch. I’m also heading for the same result: being laid off. Your workplace sounds like the ideal workplace for me because I really NEED other people to exists around me, especially senior developers. Any tips on what to look for in job postings to find positions like that? Interview questions? I’m really tired of flying solo before I’m ready.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Unfortunately I sort of stumbled into this job by accident so I don’t have too much advice!

          I will say that my old job was doing internal development for a large company, and my new one is a much smaller company that’s developing for external customers, so rather than having individual developers working on independent small projects, it’s almost entirely teams of developers on larger projects for outside customers. (state government, in our case) Not to say that working internally can’t yield a more supportive environment too, under the right circumstances, but I’ve never worked for a company like that so I’m not sure what to look for!

          1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

            That helps a lot, actually! Thank you. I’ll look for a company that does bigger projects with multiple developers, just not TOO MANY developers. And one that emphasizes training the new generation and personal growth.

            I really do want to program, but I need people! Feedback. Rapid improvement by being surrounded by others.

            1. LCL*

              You don’t sound like a failure to me. It sounds like your company made what is becoming a classic mistake for some jobs-wanting people at a skill level that really requires X years of experience, but instead hiring new people with much less than X experience, and thinking they can push them into being more skilled. I never said this was logical, but I’ve seen it before.

              1. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

                :( Yup. They’re basically asking someone with 4 years of experience to do the job of someone with 15-20 years of experience. And the jobs of a full project team. They don’t realize they really need to be hiring a systems engineer/business analyst, use one of our project managers, teach one of our guys that would be a good tester HOW TO BE A TESTER instead of just letting him sit there while his job is transitioned away, etc… It’s sad that I can see that and they can’t.

                1. Safetykats*

                  I think it’s good that you’re looking for a better place to work. A company that has failures due to lack of infrastructure like testing and then blames that on individual contributors is not a place anyone wants to be. A PIP isn’t always a bad thing, if it’s really structured to help someone improve their performance – but it sounds like this is just their way of trying to hold you accountable for things they aren’t giving you the support you need to succeed at. That’s quite awful, actually. I wish you the best of luck in finding something better.

                2. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

                  Yeah, the more I look at it, the more awful it is. They’re not bad people, per day, but are bad AT people. The senior developers have had failures similar and no treatment like that because they’re not seen as low performers. Whereas I am a “lower performer” because I don’t magically have all their skills. But the fact I’ve been able do things like reverse-engineer complex programs and get them up and running again goes entirely unnoticed for how it’s way beyond what I should be capable of doing at my level.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      One of the biggest downsides of the American Healthcare system :(

      How far along are you?

    2. Stella70*

      Probably the very best reason to feel trapped!
      But — sorry you are feeling that way. I once felt the same, but for a very different reason – couldn’t afford a divorce! In no time at all, you will have a wonderful little life to nurture. Meanwhile, I was still stuck with a 200-lb albatross who never gave up dating [others] after we married….. :(

    3. Kj*

      Hi, fellow pregnant person. Pregnancy feels very entrapping in general to me, so I get it. And with jobs it is even worse because any benefits you might get are tied to your job. Ugh. I also feel trapped in a space with co-workers who freely comment on my body 6x/day. Yay.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        FWIW, I think there’s no shame in using whatever maternity leave you get to job search.

      2. RedCoat*

        Yep, feeling all this. Hoping when I give birth my coworkers will start calling me by my name again. Getting really tired of everyone calling my “Mommy” and asking when I’m due. The same day I was due yesterday, thanks. Thankfully, only one or two people have made weird comments/done the bump grope.

          1. RedCoat*

            Hah, yeah, a few times. They don’t listen. “Better get used to it!” Is the most common response.

        2. On Fire*

          I have NEVER understood the bump grope. It has literally never occurred to me to grope another person’s body (that I’m not romantically involved with at that particular moment, anyway), so I’ve always been skeeved by the idea. And I don’t have kids, but I always thought that if I did get pregnant, I would probably deck every person who tried to feel me. Boundaries, people!

    4. Anon-gineer*

      I totally feel you. I’d be job hunting if not for FMLA. Now I’m just trying not to get too freaked out about funding sources through my November due date.

      1. Nita*

        Hi fellow November mom (and engineer)! Good luck, I hope those funding sources come through!

    5. Nita*

      That’s hard! Hopefully the time till your leave will pass quickly, and then you can get your ducks in a row, update your resume, and start applying while on leave.

    6. TheyCanAlwaysSurpriseYou*

      I hear you, and am sorry for your frustration.

      I feel trapped in my job because I am not sure if we are going to try for a second baby. My job is stagnant and my boss has been promising me a promotion for a year, but nothing has come of it. But I am 41, so I feel like I am too old to find a new job, wait 12 months for FMLA coverage, and then start trying to get pregnant.

    7. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Been there. That’s a horrible feeling.

      My experience was that depending on how things go after the birth, you may feel trapped still. I did/do. Had a very rough physical recovery, and had a lot of other things going on, desperately needed to keep my health insurance due to ongoing physical issues stemming from injuries during delivery, so changing my job was so far down the list of priorities that I still haven’t and my kid is now talking about university. The period when we had a sort of functioning set of regulations around health care and pre-existing conditions was too short for me to get a better position.

      Commiserations.

    8. Fangy Yelly*

      I feel you on this. I am trapped at my job because I need the FMLA to take care of a stressful family medical situation. I am grateful that my boss IS understanding of “life happens, family first”, but during regular worklife they micromanage, and I was about to start job searching when the medical situation came up…

      We got this!

  20. El Camino*

    Hi there! I’m looking for good scripts to nudge someone to send you docs you need when you know they’re already swamped.

    I work on our grant applications and usually work with the finance person to get budgets and financial info, especially when those budgets have changed during the year (yay funding cuts!) and I don’t have access to that info. But any time I send emails to our finance person to request that info or work with me on it, and I make sure to write clear-cut requests of what exactly I ‘m looking for and by when, they go unanswered. This person also has a lot of other responsibilities, and I always hear them stressing out about all the other fires they’re putting out, so I feel guilty nagging about this info. But also…I need this stuff to do *my* job. Any advice on how to do that? They’re right down the hall from me, so I don’t know if an in-person drop in of “hey I don’t know if you got around to my email from last week but….” or do I just forward the email again? I also overthink everything about my tone in email and in person too so it’s not like I’m brusque – more to the opposite, maybe.

    It’s stressful, I have a lot of other stuff on my plate too but I always try to be courteous of other people’s time and it’s frustrating when I do what I can to give myself a buffer of time but someone else either doesn’t realize or doesn’t care about the sense of urgency – and now I’ll be stressing about it over the holiday weekend too.. Maybe that’s on me for not communicating it well enough – like maybe I’m more passive than I realize when I try to be direct. Appreciate any advice!

    1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I would probably try forwarding the email back to them with a message of “I know you are swamped, but have you been able to look at this? I’m going to need it by (date/time) to make the deadline.” I always throw in a “Thanks so much!” which reads warmer to me than just a thanks or thank you. If that doesn’t work, then I probably would do a drop-in.

    2. Bagpuss*

      I’d go down and speak to them – start in with saying you know they are busy, but you do [urgently] need the documents and haven’t heard back. I’d print off the e-mail and take that with you, then you can provide it to them when they start saying they don’t remember it or are not sure what you need, and give them a hard deadline.
      Something like, “I do understand you’re very busy, but it has been x days/weeks since I first requested these, and I can’t wait beyond xxxx for them. Can you make sure that you send them to me on or before xxxx”

      Its harder to ignore a person than an e-mail but I would also follow up with an e-mail saying something like “following on from our conversation today, I’ve attached my original e-mails fro reference and look forward to getting the documents by Wednesday as we agreed” (or whatever’s appropriate) as you then have a paper trail if they still don’t respond and you have to start looping in your manager

    3. CurrentlyAnonDeveloper*

      Ask them how you can help them give you the info you need. Let them know you know they’re very busy and will be happy to work with them in order to work it into their schedule. Ask for preferences and if they need more info and just be open to getting it done as a team. Treat them with respect and as a subject matter expert.

      Also, some people suck at email. You’ll have to obviously stop by in person, but first ask if it’s a good time and ask for a better time if it isn’t. This is a surprisingly effective approach!

    4. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      Do you know if they reply to other people’s emails? ie is there a chance that they just aren’t great with their emails?
      I do a lot of chasing up and hounding people for things (I affectionately refer to it as herding cats). Some people respond well to emails, whereas others are so busy they don’t get to their emails. For those folks I do the ‘drop by’ approach – it’s a lot harder to ignore someone stood in front of you. However, I do try to keep it light and breezy – I’ll make a joke or comment on some goings on. I’m sure it’s transparent that I’m there to ask for something, but I like to frame it to them as ‘To save you from another email I wanted to check if you’d completed those reports I needed?’. Then I’ll usual clarify to them the level of urgency. I also find that empathising with them about their workload can help them relax a bit.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Drop by in person and reiterate that you need the information to secure funding. No funding=even more budget cuts and more work for the finance person.
      Also ask if they have an email list where they distribute updated reports or have a place on a shared drive where they store the latest info. Basically ask them to automate the process so you don’t have to bug them. Chances are they have this information somewhere and are just too swamped to answer every email.

    6. not really a lurker anymore*

      Can you ask for access to the files on whatever drive they’re stored on? Then you can just send them updates stating “Accessed X, Q and I files for blank grant/budget/whatever on 5/25/18”

    7. Tara S.*

      Depending on how much of a pattern this is, I would reach out to others to see if they are also experiencing it. If yes, I might bring it up with a supervisor and ask for the best way to handle the situation.

      (We had a Grants Officer who was like this, pleasant but overworked and non-responsive. We talked to our supervisor as a group, and I think he was going to reach out to the Grants Officer’s department, but then she got reassigned before he could.)

    8. epi*

      IME the nudge that maximizes being both effective and nice is finding a way to mention that you can’t meet a deliverable without them. You can put whatever fluff is appropriate to your situation around it, but “I need this information so that I can return the report to Bob” has often gotten me an immediate response and an apology. (Not that the apology was really needed, just saying normal people care about this.) If that doesn’t work, yeah, you can go find them in person.

      If it’s an ongoing problem I’ll also offer any workarounds I’m willing to actually do to make it easier on them. If it helps them to send something in one format vs. another, or on Tuesday vs. Wednesday, that kind of thing.

    9. SarahKay*

      A little flattery might help here. I know that if I know someone has a good opinion of me then I want to keep it, so I’m more likely to go that extra mile for them, which of course reinforces their good opinion of me and so on – the virtuous circle.
      I’d recommend coming up with some sort of compliment about their work, and then dropping in to their office in person, and working the compliment into the chase-up conversation. Could be something as simple as “I’m so sorry to chase you on this, as I know how busy you are – I’m always so impressed by how much you manage to get done.”

    10. Lily Puddle*

      Eesh, I can relate. I’ve been having to nag my boss to get back to me on things where it’s holding up a project waiting on his input, but I see how busy he is every day, and I hate to add one more thing to his already-full plate. No advice, just commiseration.

    11. El Camino*

      Thanks so much, everyone! Lots of great advice here!

      Fortunately the ‘in-person conversation and forwarding the email afterwards for context’ combo proved to be helpful. I’m saving a lot of these other tips for future reference too, since I tend to be more passive than I probably should on some of these things (e.g. not just with this particular person). Plus, lots of moving parts at this organization currently with a major funder so the stakes just feel doubly high right now…so a big thanks again to everyone who’s been there, done that! :)

      1. Argh!*

        I find that offering to buy people donuts or cookies gets the point across in a more humorous way than “ACK! I need that stuff yesterday!” Fortunately, they don’t take me up on it, but I’m prepared to put my money where my mouth is if a food bribe will work!

      2. Safetykats*

        I’m really glad these ideas worked for you – they are all good first steps. At some point, if this remains a pattern, you should loop in your manager and the manager if the person who is too busy to effectively help you. Your manager, so that they know what/who is holding you up. Their manager, in case they don’t already understand that this person is overloaded (or has poor time management skills) and that is affecting others. Maybe your manager is willing to talk to their manager, which would be good. As a person who is often busy myself “fighting fires” I know that every day I make decisions about who I’m going to help and who I’m going to defer until later – but I do try hard to make sure everyone at least knows when I can get to their request. Sometimes I lose one along the way, so a reminder is always welcome. But honestly, sometimes I need my management to understand that work needs to be reprioritized or reassigned, so I don’t mind at all when someone goes over my head. Sometimes I get told to drop everything and help them right now, sometimes they get told their request just isn’t as important as my other current tasks, and sometimes they get told there is someone else who can help them. Either way, we all get better clarity on how to get the work done.

    12. AnonJ*

      I think my approach would be to drop by their office and say, “Hey, I’m working on the X grant application. Can you take a look at your calendar and let me know a good time for us to meet for (15/30) minutes this week to go over the financial info we’ll need for the submission and the timeline for it so we can get this together?” Then send a calendar invite for the time they say and attend the meeting with very specific items you’ll need and a timeline for them that actually gives you a cushion.

      1. SpaceNovice*

        This is also a good approach. I’ve used it before successfully! You’re respecting their time while still getting the information you need.

  21. hermit crab*

    In a couple of weeks, I am going on an INTERVIEW in ANOTHER CITY and the (nonprofit!) organization is PAYING for my flights AND hotel! My current, for-profit employer definitely doesn’t do that for hires at my level. (The job I’m interviewing for would be in my home city, but the hiring manager and most of the team work out of a different office.)

    I have not actually been on an in-person interview since 2008, when I was 22 years old; so far I’ve had a phone screen and a first-round skype interview with this organization. I have been low-key looking for a change for about a year (and am currently talking to a couple of potential Americorps placements as well, as I’ve mentioned before) but this is the first time it’s gotten to a serious stage. I am cycling between excitement and “oof, I guess I have to find time to buy a suit now.”

    Good vibes to everyone who is searching!

      1. hermit crab*

        I did! And I discovered that there is also a audio/visual version, which is fun.

  22. Canarian*

    The CEO of my company announced his retirement at the weekly all-staff this morning. He’s been in the position for almost 20 years, and with the company his whole career. He’s nice and generally inoffensive, but also a bit of an awkward, anti-social guy who I think must have been promoted for his technical expertise and not because he has the leadership or management qualities you usually want from a CEO. He created one of those defining moments that really encapsulates someone’s whole demeanor with the follow-up statement he said after giving his retirement date:

    “I’ll save the obligatory stuff about how I appreciate all of you for the retirement party.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Well. At least he knows he has an obligation to say thanks and other nice things. Maybe he will hand out nice checks to go with the thanks.

  23. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    If you can’t find someone’s work email, is it acceptable to send an interview thank you through linkedin? The job was originally posted on linkedin (and nowhere else that I saw, even the company’s website).

    2. College Career Counselor*

      It’s a little unusual (less so if the person’s LinkedIn goes to their work email), but not terrible. Is there someone else at the organization that you are already in contact with? If you send that person an email, you can ask them to forward it to the other person (this doesn’t work as well if you’re customizing thank you letters to several different people).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes. I had to ask my internal recruiter for email addresses for thank yous, and she said either LinkedIn or send to her and she could forward them on (they did not release emails for reasons). I used LinkedIn.

    3. Jane of all Trades*

      Honestly I think it would be much better to call the company’s reception and ask for the email address!

  24. Murphy*

    My organization is doing 360 reviews, so I’ve been sent a link to submit a review of my manager. How anonymous is this really? My manager has two direct reports, and I’m the only non-exempt one.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Honestly, it may be anonymous but I still wouldn’t say anything that I wouldn’t be okay saying to my manager’s face. I might be UNCOMFORTABLE saying some of those things, but I’d be OKAY if she knew it was coming from me. That’s my approach at least.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        +1 definitely don’t count on anonymity to say something you would otherwise never dare. Whatever you do say, phrase it in a way where there’s an element of being positive and helpful, not mean.

    2. DCGirl*

      Theoretically, they’re supposed to survey at least 10 people in 360 reviews. At least, according to HR at my last job, they are, because it was the excuse for not being able to implement it there.

    3. Jennifer*

      From what I have read on this website (go look around here for more on this) 360’s are as anonymous as the people offering them want them to be. Which is to say that they can see the answers and who said them if they want to. If I were you, I would assume the manager will see it.

      The one time I got sent a 360 review for the most difficult person in the office, I gave them absolute rave reviews for a reason.

    4. Gotham Bus Company*

      Assume that it’s NOT AT ALL anonymous. Assume that saying the wrong thing will incur a Most Severe Punishment.

  25. On Wee*

    Hitting a wall of procrastination and ennui. After spending the past few months filling in for several coworkers, the sudden drop in workload — which originally gave me license to relax, has now turned into doing the bare minimum. Some of this is a form of rebellion over the way I’ve been treated (good ole gal who will always pitch in when needed and thereby get taken advantage of — my fault), but the other bit is that I am over my career and transitioning out is taking longer than I hoped (though not unexpected).

    I don’t know how to kick myself out of first gear and at least be somewhat productive! Help!

    1. TheMonkey*

      I’m having a similar problem. We had about 18 months of hair-on-fire emergency, all hands on deck crisis mode here. As of early winter, things are mostly resolved.

      Without the constant stream of emergencies and snap decisions and creative collaborative problem solving on a deadline, I’m feeling a bit lost. At first it was nice to take a breath. Now I’m afraid I’ll breathe so deeply I’ll fall asleep at the wheel.

      I’m attempting to deal with it by creating deadlines and schedules for myself around projects that have distant end points, so I’ll be hitting reasonable milestones on a regular basis. I just developed that this week, so I’m not sure yet how it’ll go. I’m also on-the-side looking for other opportunities. Unlike you, I don’t necessarily *want* to leave, but I’m wondering if a new set of challenges will re-light my fire.

      No real solutions, but at least some solidarity? If you’re in the US, I hope you take some time over the long weekend to recharge and come back a little bit renewed next week (that’s what I’m hoping for myself anyway).

    2. RedCoat*

      I feel that- the only advice I have is to enjoy the breathing time, but definitely make yourself a list of “reasonable amount of work to do”, and then make sure you’re hitting it. Are there any long term projects you can take on- perhaps even something to prevent it from hitting emergency all the time levels again?

    3. designbot*

      Do you have vacation time saved up? It sounds like the perfect time to take a break. Your mind and stamina are worn down and need a reset so that you can come back refreshed.

      1. designbot*

        Also I should have said—if you don’t have vacation saved, ask anyway! If you’ve been filling in for several people at once, that’s likely come with some late nights. See if there’s any way to finangle some comp time out of that.

  26. Wendy City*

    I have a third-round interview next week for a new job and I could not be more excited.

    First round was with the person who would be my manager, second round was with his boss, and now this round is with an executive-level officer.

    This is my first time interviewing with someone so senior-level; I interact with people at her level every day in my current role, but interviewing with c-suite folks is new for me. I expect they’ll want to know where I fit in the broader strategic picture, but is there anything else in particular I should be cognizant of that they would be looking for?

    1. SpaceNovice*

      To see if you fit with the general company philosophy. See if there are blog posts and stuff on their website for hints into management style?

    2. Ali G*

      Do some research on him/her. You should have a basic understanding of their background – and if they are a founder of the company, the history. They will mostly want to meet you to see if you are able to fit in with the office culture. Unless they are a horrible micro manager they just want to meet the top candidate (yay you!!!) for the job before an offer is extended.

  27. Dalia524*

    Long time reader, rare poster. I work in an academic research lab, and my PI and our long time collaborator have agreed to start a biotech company with me. I’m really excited and pretty nervous – I’m going to be the “doer” and basically run the company, develop the projects, and get funding/customers with their experience guiding me. I’ve been reading a lot about the ins and outs of running a business, but if anyone has any extra tips, I’d be most appreciative.

    2. Tara S.*

      Be sure to see if there are any resources on campus! Universities like being able to say they helped foster small businesses, and often have different resources to help you get started.

      1. catsaway*

        Definitely this. Trying to get ‘alternative’ (read private) sources of funding is a big thing at many research universities these days, as is supporting (or trying to at least) start-ups. If you need space, you may even be able to rent lab space from your university.

    3. TreeSilver*

      Also look into NIH resources for SBIR and STTR grant applications. Having a good business plan is very key there (and it might also help your NewCo for funding purposes) and you might benefit from some of the guidance they offer!

    4. FD*

      Get a written operating agreement with your partner! I cannot stress enough how important this is. I’ve seen things go spectacularly pear-shaped with partnerships several times now and every time a big factor was that the people involved didn’t have a good agreement.

      This agreement should cover (1) who has the controlling interest (and don’t split it 50/50, someone needs to be able to break ties), (2) how the parties can end the partnership if necessary. Think of it as a prenup.

      1. WS*

        Yes, absolutely! I’m in a partnership and fortunately (for me) my partner, who is older, had been badly burned by a partnership with a non-existent agreement once before, so he had no trouble signing one now. Get a lawyer on board – even if it’s a very basic contract, you want to make sure it’s legal and enforceable in your jurisdiction. This goes double if you are friends with your prospective business partner and triple if they are a family member.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Work out a personal budget for your family. How much money do you have saved up? How long can you go without digging into retirement savings (by the way, never dig into retirement savings).

  28. Sticky situation*

    I trawled through the archives this week and was unable to find a similar situation…

    I run a small, seemingly happy AAM-style team. One of my employees has been having interpersonal problems with someone on a different team–they feel they’ve been blown off, frozen out, etc. The other team is… not AAM-style. They have meager boundaries between work and not-work; socialize together; ignore a lot of what I could consider the niceties of the workplace. I don’t trust the other employee’s boss, who frquently socializes with the other employee, to have a calm response to this particular case or a reasonable set of norms generally. (I’m making this team sound awful–they have other good qualities–but this issue seems to coincide with their weakest point.)

    Can I attempt to get together one on one with the other employee to ask “what’s going on?” or is that a bad idea? The other employee has approached me in the past for help with an issue requiring interpersonal skills so I was hoping I could capitalize on their respect for me and defuse things at a low level. It seems like the main reason not to do it is that it may be “wrong procedure,” but I don’t think these folks care about procedure. The downsides are that I don’t have the standing to tell them what to do (“you can’t treat A like that”) and I still don’t have a good way to escalate if I can’t patch things up myself.

    1. Bagpuss*

      Hmm. Is the other manager likely to get hot under the collar about you ‘going behind her back’ if you speak directly to her report?
      It might be a good idea to mention to to her – perhaps just to say you plan to have a chat to her report to straighten out a few communication issues , but of the employee has come to you in the past the alternative would be to try for a very informal chat – is there a way you could ‘bump into’ them so you aren’t scheduling a formal meeting? That might be less likely to cause any waves!

      1. Sticky situation*

        I don’t know whether the other manager would mind me having the conversation, but if they did mind, it wouldn’t be because of hierarchy or etiquette or any rules like that.

        If I could bump into the other employee that would be great. Unfortunately I did bump into them perfectly the other day but my employee hadn’t decided whether they wanted me to do anything yet, so I didn’t. I wonder if I could orchestrate that somehow, or just make it casual for coffee or something (which is common here).

        1. WellRed*

          Employees who have an issue that is bad enough they bring it up to you but then don’t want you to do anything…really should figure out what they want you to do with that information.

          1. Windchime*

            Well, I know when I told my manager something like this awhile back, I hoped that she would help me figure out what to do or tell the other person’s manager discreetly. Instead she told the other manager, “Windchime has had problems with Employee”, and then other manager went to Employee and said, “Windchime has problems with you.”

            So yeah. This is what we don’t want to happen. Employee was upset and hurt and now I don’t feel like I can say anything slightly negative because I don’t want to cause more drama.

    2. alana*

      I’d stay out of it yourself and coach your employee through the best way to handle it. Other employee’s boss doesn’t sound like the kind of person who’d appreciate you going to one of his/her reports to address an issue without running it by them, particularly since the issue isn’t with you personally.

    3. BRR*

      Has your direct report tried to address it directly? I don’t think you can really coach another manager’s direct report though.

      1. D. Llama*

        Super introverted, hates team building activities and icebreakers, can you do that for me?

        Just a guess :D

      2. Sticky situation*

        I was just trying to be evocative without making my question 2000 words long. Basically, we work during work hours and mostly not during off hours, we have good communication and transparency, pretty clear goals, talk honestly about what worked and didn’t, I’m usually able to explain why I made decisions, and so forth.

  29. Stella70*

    Anyone in the mood to hear about a business trip from hell?
    Several years ago, I was required to attend a 5-day training session with two fellow co-workers. The trip required we carpool and stay in a hotel room.
    I was young and broke. Five days away meant boarding my two beloved dogs (collectively known as Keys to My Sanity) and the only way I could cover the boarding fee was to save and use the food per diem we received.
    Before we left, I let my co-workers (hereafter known as Nutjob #1 and Nutjob #2) know that unfortunately, I would not be joining them for meals as I had to eat in our hotel room (I brought a big jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread for breakfasts and dinners, lunch was provided by the training facility).
    The Nutjobs were offended. Rather, OFFENDED. They felt it was a personal slight that I was limiting my time with them outside the sessions. I repeatedly explained my dire finances, but to no avail.
    When we arrived at the hotel, we learned Boss booked us one room with 2 beds (we are all female, but still….I don’t sleep with anyone not listed as next-of-kin….or at least hasn’t bought me dinner and a movie!) The hotel didn’t have cots to loan, so I volunteered to sleep on the floor or in the desk chair. They were again offended that I immediately declined to share a bed with one of them.
    We unpacked our things and while I was putting my toiletries away in the bathroom, I put a small can of air freshener on the lid of the toilet. To the Nutjobs, this act was the equivalent of shooting their grandmothers. They stopped being offended and moved onto outright pissed. They accused me of implying they might be capable of creating bad smells in the bathroom and asked if I thought my “sh*t didn’t stink”. I replied that as the person who brought the air freshener, I was quite certain I might need it, too. It was no use.
    Nutjob #1 decided for the duration of the trip, she would no longer close the bathroom door. EVER. I saw more of her naked glory that week than I have seen of 99.9% of the people in my life.
    Nutjob #2 decided she would not flush the toilet. EVER.
    (Of course, neither one used the spray, either.)
    I pretended not to notice and silently choked down my PB sandwiches.
    To add to the fun, both Nutjobs snored. LOUDLY. They sounded like constipated jackhammers. I’m an insomniac (3 hours of sleep a night, tops) and even when I do sleep, I sleep so lightly a butterfly farting outside my window can rouse me.
    There was just no getting away from their snoring. During the second night, in desperation, I curled up in the bathtub and packed pillows around my head (neither Nutjob had gotten out of bed the night before, so I thought it was a safe bet). The next day, they saw what I had done, so that night and for the rest of the trip, they SET THEIR ALARMS to get up in the middle of the night to demand I leave the bathroom, so they may use the toilet. (After which, they would tell me “false alarm!” and go back to bed.)
    By the fifth day, my diet was turning me into Mr. Peanut and the sleep deprivation made me fantasize about their demise. (Nutjob #1 had nostrils the size and shape of lima beans and I imagined I could snuff her out in her sleep with two well-placed legumes. Nutjob #2 mentioned a new boyfriend she was giddy about and I dearly wanted to record her jackhammer sessions to give him a heads-up).
    When we returned home, the Nutjobs bragged to our co-workers about how they tormented me all week. They even went to HR and tried to get my food per diem reversed, as they felt it was “unethical” of me to use it to pay my dogs’ boarding fees.
    What is beyond weird about all of this, is that we got along very well before the trip and after. (No, I don’t have a huge capacity for forgiveness. At work, my motto is “never let them see you sweat”.) It just seemed like traveling brought out their inner Regan MacNeils.
    And I still bring air freshener with me on my travels. I’m a rebel that way!

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      omg

      I can’t believe they had the audacity to brag about tormenting you all week. Did they ever see repercussions, or did you at least get out of sharing a room with them ever again?

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      Your company sucked not getting you your own rooms (or at least beds!) but I’d have been weirded out by someone who would rather sleep on the floor than (horrors!) share a bed with another woman, and then freaked out about the air freshener as well – I’m allergic to aerosols so that would have come across as Beyond Inconsiderate behaviour.

      Of course, your co-workers retaliated with Beyond Inconsiderate behaviour as well, in some really odd ways. But this comes across overall as some very incompatible personalities that shouldn’t have had to share a room, and your company shouldn’t have expected you to.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        I do not share beds with others anymore and I don’t find that strange at all as an adult. It’s not about the “horrors!”; it’s about personal space and autonomy. It’s been quite some time since I would and I certainly wouldn’t start with coworkers.

      2. Jadelyn*

        I think it’s less about sharing a bed with *another woman* and more about sharing a bed with *anyone* who isn’t a sexual/romantic partner you’ve chosen to share a bed with. Sharing a bed is a very personal thing, so I don’t get why you’d be weirded out that someone didn’t want to share a bed with a coworker, regardless of genders.

        1. Susan Sto Helit*

          I understand not really wanting to share a bed completely. But if the only options were share a bed or sleep in a chair/on the floor…I’d have shared the bed. It’s not my ideal situation, but it’s still the least bad of the bad options.

            1. Washi*

              I would also have been team floor. I don’t mind sharing beds with friends, but with a coworker I would be up the whole night worrying about if I was turning over too much, if I had more than 50% of the covers, if I accidentally kicked or snuggled them in my sleep…I would actually sleep better on the floor!

          2. Jadelyn*

            And that’s your personal calculation of which is worse, which you’re totally entitled to – I’m just trying to say, maybe try not to assume the worst of someone who sees it the other way. The tone of your original response was very judgmental – “(horrors!)” – which I think is uncalled-for, just because someone else had a different result when they ran their calculation of which is worse.

        2. Stella70*

          Exactly, Jadelyn. It had nothing to do with genders. I barely knew these women before the trip. Sharing a bed with someone I am not intimate with – male or female – on a WORK trip is beyond the pale to me.

      3. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

        Were they both single beds? If so, not wanting to share one is more than reasonable. As to the aerosol, not wanting your co-roomer to use one because of an allergy is again perfectly reasonable, not wanting to use one just to be an arsehole (pun intended) is not.

        1. Susan Sto Helit*

          I’m assuming two double beds, because hotel bookings are based on numbers of occupants. Two double beds=4 people (‘family’ room, ugh), two single beds=2 people. I doubt a hotel would let three people check in to a two-person room.

      4. Canarian*

        Cosign this. The coworkers were awful, but it sounds rooted in a personality clash where no one was really at their best. I’m not allergic to aerosols, but I loathe the smell of air freshener – it doesn’t really do much to improve or mask the poop smell, it just adds to it, and honestly feels like the smell sticks around longer when it’s used.

        Also, maybe I’m just latching onto this part of the story because it bookended the original post, but OP, does your office have policies for use of per diem? We’re expected to use our per diem only for food and drink (non-alcoholic), and reimburse whatever doesn’t get used on a typical day. So if my per diem is $50, but I get free breakfast at the hotel, free lunch at the conference, and spend $10 on dinner, I’m expected to return $40 to the company, and not spend it on pet care or however else I see fit.

        If one of my coworkers told me before we left for a business trip that they’d already misappropriated their entire per diem for the whole trip and would be eating peanut butter in the room instead, I’d have started out on a bad foot with them too.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          That’s not how per diem usually works. They give you the money, expecting you to use it for food and other expenses, but anything not used is not returned. If you can eat more cheaply, you get to keep the extra cash.

          The other way is expenses, where you keep track of your receipts and are reimbursed (or paid ahead and return that not used, as your company does).

          1. Canarian*

            I guess I ‘m familiar with some situations where the remainder isn’t reimbursed (I didn’t realize there was a per diem/expenses dichotomy in the way you describe, though!). But I would think even in those situations the company would still have some kind of policy in place about responsible use of the per diem. It just doesn’t seem like it would be the company’s intention to provide a per diem and then have the employee subsist off peanut butter for a week (which OP even admits affected their personality, and presumably performance) and use the money for pet care.

            1. tangerineRose*

              Per diem frequently works as ThursdaysGeek said. “misappropriated” is not correct for that situation.

              What would you expect Stella70 to do? Eat out every night and let her dogs try to fend for themselves somehow? Maybe she should have brought the dogs with her. I guess she could have tried maxing out her credit cards or something.

              I don’t understand how anyone is taking the co-workers’ side. Stella70 is probably allowed to use per diem this way, I wouldn’t want to share a bed either (I probably would because I don’t think I can sleep on the floor anymore), and an air freshener doesn’t seem like that big a deal (if a co-worker couldn’t handle the fragrance, then said co-worker could use her words like an adult and say so).

              The co-workers deliberately tormented her and bragged about it. I can understand why they might have been surprised by Stella70’s feelings about the floor, not eating out, and the air freshener, but they had absolutely no reason to be jerks about it.

              I know I’m a few days late, but I just felt like I had to write something anyway.

          2. JennyFair*

            I’ve seen it both ways. When I worked for a federal agency, per diem was an allotted amount and you spent it as you wished. Most of the employees (on weeks-long assignments) would rent rooms with kitchenettes, cook and eat as cheaply as possible, and bank the remainder. At my current company, some offices, like mine, allot a per diem that includes hotel, meals, and incidentals. You choose what you want to spend it on–if you want a fancier hotel, whatever, you’re reimbursed the same flat rate. But at other offices within my company, your per diem is loaded to a card, and you have to use that card for your hotel and meals, and can’t cash out the extra. Personally, I’m all for treating people like adults who can make decisions about where they sleep and what they eat. Plus, if you get a flat rate, you don’t have the opportunity to take someone to dinner while you’re in their town, and try to expense two pizzas, two salads, and two pitchers of beer, and hope I don’t notice. (I noticed)

        2. Stella70*

          The policy on per diem for any staff member was cash upfront, to be spent however you wish. It was actually categorized as “travel expenses” on the check stub, but it was common knowledge that most or everyone used it for food. (Though there was a co-worker or two who admitted using their per diem at the hotel bar, to delight in the fact that the company was paying for their drinks.)

        3. Lindsay J*

          We’re not expected to reimburse anything on our per diems, and have never worked anywhere where that was an expectation.

          My boss outright told me he expects most of his employees come out on top when using per diem.

          I’ve heard of places where you are advanced an amount and have to account for expenses with receipts and return anything not accounted for, though. So it doesn’t surprise me that some places would do variations on that.

        4. OlympiasEpiriot*

          There may be multiple ways of using the term then.

          Whenever I get a per diem, it is a flat allowance for me to use for expenses and I’m given it in advance. It may be in addition to pre-paid fees like a hotel or a car rental. I don’t have to submit expenses.

          I have also travelled for work with a “travel budget” for which I submit expenses up to a certain amount.

          I have never been asked to return unused per diem funds.

        5. Gatomon*

          When I’ve received per diem for meals, no one really cared if you actually spent that money on food. You didn’t need a receipt if you didn’t use the company card. It was generally understood you wouldn’t get enough per diem to eat well anyway. I think the rates were $5 for breakfast, $6 for lunch and a whopping $12 for dinner at my last employer. Not exactly profitable, but yeah it would cover pet boarding fees.

      5. WellRed*

        No need to freak out over air freshener. Tell them you’re allergic. It is not being Beyond Inconsiderate if someone can’t read your mind.

      6. Stella70*

        I never asked them to use the air freshener. It was placed with the rest of my toiletries. They saw it and instantly started complaining. Down thread, someone suggested opening a window. Lovely, but what non-luxury hotels have windows that open?!

      7. nep*

        Horrors is right. I would sleep on a chair or cot before joining another co-worker in bed, utterly regardless of gender.

    4. Birch*

      Wow… I admit, I would be a little put off by the air freshener because that seems overkill to me, especially when rooming with people you don’t normally room with.

      But there is no excuse for how they treated you! FWIW I would have offered to trade you buying your dinners for you introducing me to your dogs! :D

      1. Jadelyn*

        Honestly I thought the air freshener was a considerate touch – look, bodies have Smells sometimes, and it’s polite to try to minimize that in a shared space when you’re stuck in close quarters with someone.

        I’d have twitched slightly if it was the standard aerosol spray type cause those give me headaches, but I would appreciate the intent nonetheless.

        1. Susan Sto Helit*

          I don’t know…bodies have smells sometimes, but you deal with your own smells with regular washing, or opening a window. Air freshener kind of implies you don’t trust your co-workers to do the same.

          1. Birch*

            Yeah, for me it’s the fact that acting on the potential smells makes a statement about them, if that makes sense. Rather than ignoring their presence and trusting everyone to deal with them in their own private way. It makes the private smell a public thing by bringing attention to it. Combined with aerosols being bad for air quality, and the scent itself possibly being something that nauseates the roomies. IMHO I’d rather deal with bathroom smells in a bathroom than be assaulted with Fresh Lavender or whatever that’s going to make me gag.

          3. Jadelyn*

            When is the last time you had a window in the bathroom of your hotel room that you could open? I can’t think of a time when I would’ve had that option at any hotel I’ve stayed at. And bathroom air fans can only do so much.

            To be honest, I feel like getting *insulted* – not just not liking it because those scents are sometimes awful and overpowering or you have an allergy, but being offended about the very presence of it – about the air freshener means *they’re* the ones thinking their own s*** doesn’t stink. I really don’t understand it.

      2. Stella70*

        Birch: You would have LOVED my dogs. They are waiting for me in heaven now, but they were heaven on earth to me.

    5. Jules the Third*

      So, if they don’t mind sleeping with someone else, but you do, why didn’t they share a bed and let you have the other one to yourself?

      Sleeping with snorers does suck; that should be an acceptable reason to ask for a separate room, even for a cash-strapped company. They want you to be productive, right?

      1. Camellia*

        Oh, this is good! Too bad you can’t relive this and make the suggestion, just to see what they would say.

    6. Camellia*

      I grew up rather poor and had to share a bed with my mother until I moved out on my own. As I got older and at her suggestion, we had our own pillow and blankets and slept on opposite ends of the bed. Yeah, there was a small risk of ‘foot in the face’ but that was trumped by ‘no accidental snuggling’. And it sort of felt like you were in your own twin bed.

      Just a thought for coping when the unimaginable happens…

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I once lived in a one room apartment with two other people and a bunk bed. That’s exactly how they slept–I got the bottom bunk to myself. They were sisters and had been sleeping that way for a while. I replaced their mum as a roommate, who found another place (we were all adults).

        It was pretty horrible in terms of privacy (and there were bugs) so I don’t really want to ever do that again in life.

    7. Bagpuss*

      Wow.
      I would have spoken to you about the air freshener but it would have been on the basis that I have asthma and allergies, but it would be to ask if you could just give the room as spray when we were leaving, or last thing at night, so it would dissipate before I needed to be anywhere near. – in other words, I’d have made it clear that it was a me-issue, not a them-issue.

      But they do sound very childish, and I think when they started boasting about it I would have been making a formal complaint.

    8. Cowgirl in hidding*

      Wow – if they didn’t mind sleeping with someone, they should have slept in the same bed and you get the other one. These two ladies sound like they are work bullies, they set their alarm so they could wake you up, seriously. After the first night I would have slept in the lobby or swimming pool where it would be quieter than to sleep in the room with them. So sorry you had to put up with this. A note for the future, if it really was that bad, you could have called your boss and asked for another room, siting the bed problem, it might be possible they would let you get another room.

  30. peachie*

    I’ve been in a new job (in data/IT, which is a new industry for me) for about two months, and I’m starting to get nervous about the administrative responsibilities. My previous job was mostly admin, and while I got pretty good at that, it’s not my favorite thing. I know any office job requires some of this, but I’m starting to feel overwhelmed and frustrated with the amount and type of admin stuff I have to do.

    I’m really bad at anything where I have to proactively follow up with multiple people on a rolling basis. I can do it if it’s for a specific project, but as it is, I’m responsible for contacting all our internal customers as they come in. There are 1-5 per day. If they don’t get back to me, I’m supposed to follow up with them until they do. It’s a small team and we don’t have a dedicated administrator, so I’m also getting a ton of other admin-type work, too. Plus, there’s a steep learning curve, so I’m not yet able to do the actual work as quickly as the rest of the team.

    Because this is a new field, I’m also trying to get up to speed technically. Plus, we’re working with a complex data model that takes a while to learn. I have a few big, complex project that wo uld take someone who does know what they’re doing at least 10-15 hours, and I’ve found I need at least two uninterrupted hours to make progress. It feels impossible to do that and to stay on top of the constant emails and small requests that pop up through the day. I’ve been working longer hours than the rest of the team because it feels like I can’t do any of the IT work (which is what I want to do!) until they leave. My ADHD doesn’t help; switching between tasks sucks up a ton of time.

    I know that I could talk to my boss, but the thing is, these things do need to be done, and the team is understaffed and behind. We’re hiring a new person to replace one of my coworkers who’s leaving, and I hope that helps, but we won’t get approval to hire a full-time administrative person.

    I’m also worried that, if we do hire a man to replace my (woman) coworker, I will be locked in to doing this stuff even once I’ve gotten the training I need. As it is, my office-mate and I handle all administrative tasks, despite having the exact same job title as the men on the team. It probably doesn’t help, unfortunately, that I present as very feminine and cheerful. Honestly, the best thing I’ve got going for me is that I’m the only person on our team who knows a technology that we want to start using.

    1. stej*

      I think it’s fair to bring this up to your manager, but as Alison often says, you’ll need to formulate what you’ll say based on what you know of your manager and their reasonableness.

      Perhaps you could say, “Abby and I have been taking on the administrative/organizational work to support all of our internal customers. While I fully understand that these are tasks that need to be done, I’m concerned about the ratio of technical to non-technical work on my plate, and how that affects the nature of my contributions moving forward. Would it be possible to divide the admin work across our team such that our internal customers are satisfied and each team member contributes to the whole?”

      1. peachie*

        Thanks–I think I will do this at a point. I have a big training coming up soon, and I’m hoping that after that, the work balance will change. If it doesn’t, I will try having a conversation like that.

        1. stej*

          Good luck! I’d add that your fear of a new male coworker not having to take on administrative work is valid, and to keep that as a discussion point should it occur. Either way, if a female new hire gets the admin work or a male new hire doesn’t get the admin work, there is a question of how the work became distributed across gender lines when it’s important to the whole team.

    2. Tara S.*

      I’m torn between “don’t get good at things you don’t want to do” and my own feelings of “must be good at all things.” I’ve never bombed on purpose, so I can’t recommend that. As for following up with internal people, could you create a sort of personal ticket system? So if someone comes in, you create a ticket for them/their issue. Once the issue is resolved, you can discard the ticket. If you reach out, just note that on the ticket. This way you have a tracking system that shows you all the people you need to get back to, and keeps a record of how many times/the last time you reached out. I like Trello for this, but you could just use anything that works for you. Best of luck!

      1. Hamburke*

        Ive used trello for this too but now have boomarang which will remind me to send a follow up if I don’t hear back.

  31. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I complain a lot about work, so I thought I’d throw out a story about some of the kindness here. (By and large it is good people….just lousy management and questionable policies.)

    It’s been a super rough week for me lately. I don’t know why, but this Memorial Day is really making me miss my dad. It’s been almost two and a half years…you wouldn’t think it would still get to me as strongly. Plus, my friend with cancer is getting worse. Work has been stressful because all the llama grooming reports needs to be in and I’m the only one who can process them.

    So, yesterday, when I hit a pot hole and my low tire light came on ten minutes later it was the last straw. I was crying in my car (not something that happens). I got out and inspected my tires. Everything looked fine, it was driving fine but I was still a mess. I can’t afford four new tires at the moment. And it was something I totally would have called my dad for. The fact that I couldn’t just made it even worse. I’m fairly car savvy…except with tires. Need me to check my oil? Fine. Tell if the brakes are spongy? You got it. But judge if a tire is low by looking at it? Nope.

    We have an air compressor at work, so I asked the warehouse manager if we could top up my tires. I figured that way, at least, I could see how bad it was and if I needed to call a tow truck before taking it on the road. So I pulled my car into the dock and we walked down to help me. Not only did he measure the pressure in all of them, but he inspected all four and told me what he was looking for and what I should look for. Checked them over a couple times and everything was fine. He went into total dad mode and I can’t put into words how appreciated that was. It was exactly what my dad would have done. It wasn’t demeaning or condescending. It was very, very kind and extremely appreciated.

    What other acts of kindness has anyone experienced at work?

    1. Thursday Next*

      Aww, that was really kind of your warehouse manager, and it sounds like his kindness came at the perfect time.

    2. CBE*

      I injured my leg, and my boss came to me and told me she’d arranged 6 weeks of parking right outside the door to the building, saving me a couple hundred yards walk every day. She also brought in a stool from her home for me to elevate my leg at my desk if I needed it. (Which I did!) She also didn’t blink at 5 weeks of 3 times a day PT and another 2 months of 2X a day. I didn’t even have to ask for any accommodations!

    3. Laura H*

      Aww that’s so sweet.

      Honestly, the fact that my managers are willing to field my questions that are of the nature of I know the answers but don’t use em enough in my day to day tasks that I need verification on when I encounter the situations I need the answers- is major.

      And yes while that is on a good manager checklist, I don’t always remember what a valuable thing that is.

    4. Cowgirl in hidding*

      Stories like this make my heart sing. I still have my dad but he lives >200 miles from me. I have had some extremely great bosses that were like father figures to me, I was born the year the graduated from college, so I fit the age group. They always listened, gave me advice when I asked, helped me buy good cars, supported me when I took maternity leave to have my babies and to this day still take my calls when I call them, even on their birthdays (which I know they hate). Cannot beat those great bosses.

    5. CTT*

      Aw, that was sweet!

      When I was a paralegal, we had these monthly CLE-type things. They were more litigation-focused, so they weren’t useful to me (transactional), but it was a free lunch and a chance to chat with the other paralegals I didn’t see much. On one of those days, we had a huge closing that required me to miss the session. The associate who was running the deal found out I was missing it, and went out and bought me and the other paralegal assisting our favorite lunches from a nearby restaurant. It was really nice to know that he cared enough to take time out of his day to go do that (even if it was total selfish motivation of “this is 20 minutes where no one can find me!”).

    6. Emily S.*

      WDP, I’m really sorry about your rough week, and your friend’s cancer. Frankly, my week hasn’t been great, so I’m excited it’s only 3 more hours before weekend fun can begin.

      BTW, have you heard anything about the jobs? (Just curious, I know it often takes forever.)

      This isn’t a workplace thing, but I’ll share a heartwarming personal thing. This past Tuesday, my brother and sister-in-law were FINALLY able to officially adopt their foster son, after having him as a foster for 804 days (he was 11 weeks old when they got him). They had a huge party on Tuesday night, and my sister-in-law’s relatives came from as far as Denver and Alaska to join in – it was over 100 people. I made a batch of festive chocolate cupcakes and some other treats, and got lots of compliments (I’m pretty into baking). So that was really fun and happy.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Good news is good news!

        No, so far no news. But I’m not terribly surprised nor disheartened (yet). Although I am pretty good at recognizing when those feelings are creeping up and then taking a step, or five, back.

    7. random commenter*

      Once, I had some repair work done in my garage which left my car covered in drywall dust. I was too lazy to wash my car over the weekend, figuring the dust would blow off when I drove to work on Monday. Apparently drywall dust adheres very well so I couldn’t see that well through the windshield as I was driving. I turned on the wipers to brush it off but that didn’t work either. So I sprayed windshield washer fluid to clean it off but it completely gunked up the whole windshield!

      I had to pull over to the side of the road to scrape/clear enough of an area on the driver’s side to regain some type of visibility and get to work. I made it to work safely. I can’t recall what my plan to resolve the issue was but when I came out of work, someone had completely cleaned my windshield! I never found out who or how (we park in a ginormous lot nowhere near running water that is a bit of a walk to the office).

      1. Gatomon*

        I walked past our totally awesome facilities dude putting the headlight back in to someone’s car a few weeks ago! (It was kind of hanging out by a wire.)

        Also, drywall dust is terrible. My dad toasted a PC with it back in the day, none of us thought to take it out of the room or cover it during the remodel.

    8. Beancounter in Texas*

      My husband’s best friend was in hospice care, so my husband was with him and I expected a call at any moment. On the morning of my birthday, my husband called, so I rushed to the break room, and he let me know his friend had passed. Even while expecting the news, I broke down in tears and a VP walked by. She asked me if I was okay, and at first I nodded, but then I shook my head and she asked what she could do. I asked her to get my supervisor, who came and just hugged me without saying anything. It was very nice to have a shoulder to lean on at that moment.

    9. AnonJ*

      My company has 3 days paid leave for bereavement. My co-worker had a very old dog, had worked there a long time, and occasionally brought the dog into the office so everyone knew and loved her. As the dog’s health declined, everyone was very concerned and time off for vet appointments was a non-issue. When the dog finally had to be put down, devastating to my co-worker, our boss said “I know it’s not specifically covered in our bereavement leave policy, but I think it’s within the spirit of it. Please take up to 3 days off with pay if it will make dealing with your loss easier for you.”

  32. Justin*

    Yesterday something happened for the first time in my entire career.

    A colleague and I ate lunch and we talked about challenges in the office, and friction with other colleagues. Not gossip about personalities but literally reasons why working with people’s different styles can be difficult.

    I started my career overseas and didn’t speak the language, then I worked various part-time jobs where no one really spoke, then I finally got a more stable job, but my team was all of one person (me) and eventually a woman who worked for me.

    And, as an educator, I’ve always been a little jealous of more traditional teachers who can share war stories with peers.

    This, talking about work challenges with a peer from my own workplace, is something I’ve truly never had, and I know that’s weird, but it was validating. I had only ever experienced nasty gossip or stony silence.

    That is all.

    2. anonagain*

      Thanks for sharing this. I’m glad you had that experience.

      As an aside, I read one of your comments a few weeks ago and followed the link to your blog. I am happy I did. I have really enjoyed what I have read of it so far.

  33. Overworked*

    I feel like my workload is getting more and more unreasonable every week. My department is understaffed by 5 people, but we are expected to get the same amount of work done. Our management refuses to pay overtime except as a last resort, and I am often put in situations where I’m supposed to do the same amount of work by myself that 2, 3, or even 4 people used to do.

    This past month has been hell because, even though we are already understaffed, my manager has loaned out two people to another department for a project three days per week, and on top of that, a few people have taken vacations and sick days. I have repeatedly asked my manager to schedule overtime to make up for some of the lost hours. Sometimes she flat-out refuses, and other times, she says she will and then doesn’t.

    Her justification is, “The work is getting done, so we don’t need overtime.” This really bugs me because I feel like we are getting punished for busting our butts to get all the work done. There have been multiple times this year that I worked a 12-hour shift without taking a break, not to eat or drink or even go to the bathroom (food and beverages aren’t allowed in our work area because we work with toxic chemicals, so I can’t even sip a cup of coffee or nibble a granola bar while I work). I do what I have to do to get the work done because it’s important and there can be serious consequences to not getting it done, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to work like this all the time.

    Plus, the work isn’t getting done. Most of our work has strict deadlines, and we are meeting those, and that’s what the manager sees, but there are other things with looser deadlines and long-term projects that are slipping through the cracks. We haven’t missed any deadlines for these things yet, but they’re piling up and will eventually become problems. We have a bunch of things due by the end of the month that we should have been working on for the past three weeks, and now, with less than a week left, the manager is asking why they’re not done yet (but she still won’t schedule overtime to get it done).

    I don’t know what to do anymore because I am getting really burned out from having to work at a sprinting pace all the time, but I care about my work and I don’t want to let things drop because of the potential consequences.

    1. Nita*

      So is the manager aware of things that are falling through the cracks? Does anyone in the department have the ability to talk to upper management about the need for more people? In the end, as long as they know what’s going on, making sure the workload matches the staffing is their responsibility. Especially if they’re not letting people work overtime to make deadlines. In the end, you kind of have to let go of feeling you must do it all, and let management figure it out…

      1. Overworked*

        Yes and no. Our management, in general, is not great at looking ahead. As long as the deadline is still in the future, they don’t see a problem, until we miss a deadline and it becomes a crisis, and of course it’s our fault, not management’s. They are well aware of the need for more people and have been trying to hire more, but guess what? Nobody wants to work here! In the last round of hiring, they made three offers and all three candidates turned it down.

    2. Totally Minnie*

      How honest have you been with your boss about your stress levels? Does she know how many days you go without food or bathroom breaks? Does she know how this is affecting you, both mentally and physically? If you haven’t said those specific things yet, I think you should.

      Sometimes, if I’m just acting a little frazzled, my boss will give me a pep talk and send me back into the fray. But if I say outright “I’m under a lot of stress and it’s making me feel sick and forgetful, and I’m making rookie mistakes because my mind is doing too many things at once,” she’ll understand that that’s different from feeling frazzled. Maybe your boss just needs that extra wake up call.

    3. CBE*

      Honestly, it’s time to miss a deadline. Sometimes that’s the only think that speaks to managers like that. And no 12 hour days without food or bathroom breaks. If you need to work 12 hour days, TAKE THOSE BREAKS.
      It’s not reasonable. So don’t do it.
      You can care about the work AND be reasonable about workload. Your boss is exploiting your care for the work.

      1. LCL*

        Yup. Start working at a more reasonable pace, take your breaks, don’t work for free. It sounds like at the end of the month the manager will be faced with the missed deadlines. If you could take a vacation or sick day on the day you expect it to all hit the fan, it will help get the point across.

      2. Jules the Third*

        +1 Managers are more likely to fix problems when they see the results of the problems.

      3. Overworked*

        When we do miss a deadline, it’s our fault, not management’s, and their response to it is that they just need to crack the whip harder.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          You can only do what you can do, no matter how hard they crack the whip. As I’m a Little TeaPot says below, don’t care more than the manager does.

          Do what you can and do it well. Take care of yourself. Send periodic emails to your manager about things that are not getting done, and then let them fail. They may blame you, but if you have clearly communicated to them that they are not getting done, and not just last minute communication, the problem is theirs. Really. Don’t let them make you feel guilty for them not doing their own job.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Step back, do what’s reasonable, and let things fail. Set priorities with your manager, but of course you’re unable to keep working at this pace. Never care more than the manager.

    5. WS*

      Not taking breaks while working with dangerous substances is a recipe for disaster. I work in pharmaceuticals and there are strict limits, i.e. compulsory 30 minute break after 5 hours worked even if you don’t want it. Sadly, these strict limits came after a situation similar to use, where a worker was seriously injured (and unable to work again) and another two less seriously injured but still needing to go to hospital. Don’t let your manager push you into that position – do what you’re doing well, and the rest falls by the wayside.

  34. ytk*

    How should I tell my manager that I’m unmotivated / disengaged?
    I’m not really sure why, just that I’ve been feeling in a funk lately in my life and it’s definitely shown in my work. Also not sure if it’s because of how I’m feeling, but think I’m questioning whether the role i’m in is really a good fit for me as I seem to be getting frustrated and feeling undervalued in the work that I am doing.

    1. Washi*

      What are you hoping to get out of telling your manager this? (Genuine question; I think how you approach this will depend on what you’re looking for.)

      1. Susan Sto Helit*

        I did discuss something similar with my manager a while back – he’d brought up that it was evident that I brought a lot more energy to tasks I enjoyed than those I didn’t, and I explained that it wasn’t a matter of enjoyment, so much (some of those tasks I was actually bringing a lot of energy to were incredibly stressful), but that some tasks were much less mentally stimulating than others, and I found it harder to focus on them than the ones that were actively challenging.

        I made sure to emphasise that I was aware that ALL tasks were important ones and this was my problem to fix, not his, but it did lead us to discuss the fact that I actually work better when the work is more challenging, and that (for me) increasing my workload so that I had fewer down periods was going to be key to getting the best out of me in the workplace.

        1. ytk*

          Thank you for sharing, your words resonate with me about needing mental stimulation in my work, in addition to wanting less down time.

      2. ytk*

        Good question. I really don’t want to be perceived as lazy, and in past have demonstrated my capability to perform well, and think this recent situation is an anomaly. Think I want validation for my expectations in the role, because if the core requirements are killing my spirit than I may want to plan a path out of here.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Serious question. What would have to happen for you to feel more valued?

  35. Mona Lisa*

    I have a question regarding pregnancy, office accommodations, and when to ask your boss for them and would love to get some advice from other people on this situation.

    I work on a university campus, and my office is moving to an older building sometime in June. The estimated work completion date is 6/15, and we plan to be there by the end of the month. The office is a third-floor walk-up with restrooms on the first floor. Also, right now, the plan is for me to go from having my own office to sharing with my direct supervisor.

    I just found out I was pregnant a week ago and had my first visit to my midwife yesterday to confirm. The first ultrasound is scheduled for 6/14. My concerns deal with what the pumping situation will be for me after I have the baby early next year. If I was staying put, I’d have no problem. However, since I’m going to be sharing an office, I will need a private space.

    Ideally, I’d probably wait to have a conversation about my pregnancy until the second trimester, but with the construction going on in the office and the un-finalized office arrangement, I’m wondering if I should broach this sooner? I’m not nuts about the lack of elevators and worry about that might be a problem later. Also, the closest university-provided lactation room would probably be a 15-20 minute round trip from my new office building, which would mean I’d probably miss out on at least 2 hours of work every day. I’m thinking, if I discuss this now, there might be time to get a work order in for a lock on one of the new meeting rooms in this fiscal year, or that my boss might be open to re-configuring the office arrangement. I am the only woman on my team of five so I’m sure this isn’t something anyone would have considered before now.

    I’d love some advice from others about when to have this conversation. I don’t love the idea of telling my boss about the pregnancy before my family, but I want to make sure I get the proper accommodations while there’s still time and budget to make them happen.

    Thanks in advance for any advice or help you can give!

    1. RedCoat*

      I’d mention it to your boss- we just had a bunch of pregnancies (I’m at the tail end of the last ‘boom’, as it were), and my company used it as a good time to evaluate our accommodations- nursing rooms and parking included. It ended up being a really good communication, and the company adjusted a lot of stances all around. I’d go with something like “I wasn’t intending on announcing it this early, and I am keeping it very private until (insert time), but I wanted to mention it now since we are in an office redesign.”

      1. Mona Lisa*

        I think that’s good language about asking for them to keep it private. I have a direct manager and then his boss/our office’s director who oversees some of my work and is in charge of the office renovations. I might ask for a meeting with them both next week to discuss our options.

      2. Natalie*

        I think it would be wise to specify that you’re not announcing it to everyone, just boss because of this specific construction issue. You probably don’t want boss to share it around.

    2. Observer*

      In terms of the lactation room, I don’t think you need to bring up that you’re pregnant. But, unless you are the only youngish female on staff in that building, and the chances of hiring anyone new for the next 10 years is slim you should point out to your boss that they really need to make sure there is a lactation room in that building. It’s true that employers can often get away with not having lactation rooms by claiming “undue hardship”. But when they are already doing major renovations, it’s going to be MUCH harder to make that claim.

      Also, you might want to point out that a third floor walk up with no bathroom is probably not a great idea. Someone needs to look at those plans again and think about what real human beings need to be reasonably efficient.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        That’s a good point about other people potentially needing the space. Since the university provides official lactation rooms around campus, I don’t think they necessarily have to put one in our building as long as they agree to let me have the time to go elsewhere. I’m concerned more for myself about the amount of time it will take out of my day to make it work.

        Unfortunately it’s not a major renovation they’re doing right now. It’s smaller things like refinishing the walls, changing the carpets, etc. I’m not sure there’s any way I can convince my department to spend a lot of money to add a new bathroom, but I am thinking about alternative suggestions for places I could work if the stairs become an issue, which is something they would need to consider anyway since the building is 100% not handicap accessible.

      2. Thlayli*

        This is the issue. It’s not that YOU will need a pumping room, it’s that a pumping room may be needed.

        Although if you are the only woman of childbearing age in the new building it will be pretty obvious so in that case you may need to fess up.

      1. Mona Lisa*

        Yeah, I honestly have no idea what would happen if they hired someone in a wheelchair. My guess is they would have to be headquartered in another building, hopefully somewhere near the office. It’s a university campus with quirky, old buildings so I’m not sure what kind of rules apply.

  36. AnonAnon*

    I posted above about some stuff at work that is sending me down a path to burnout… now I need to tackle the burnout itself. It’s related to frustrations at work, not overwork or too many hours at work.

    I’m taking some days off here and there (still haven’t finalized plans for a “long” vacation yet this year; that’s on me and my husband, not work — I get plenty of PTO). I started doing Crossfit a couple of months ago and have tightened up my eating and sleeping to go along with it, so I think I’m in good shape in terms of basic self care. I have an old chronic shoulder injury, so I get regular massages (although they’re not relaxing or enjoyable — it’s more like a medical treatment than a spa day).

    Any suggestions?

    1. SoSo*

      It sounds like you’ve made some really good changes, but what about hobbies aside from the crossfit? Are there any new things you’d like to explore that you might be interested in? Anything you’ve been wanting to catch up on like a book or a TV show? A bucket list of items you’ve always wanted to try out (learning a new skill like sewing or checking out an indoor rock climbing gym in your area, etc etc)? Getting some positive mental stimulation from a hobby can definitely help “reset” your brain during your off hours from work and make you feel more refreshed when it’s time to go back in.

      1. Quinoa*

        I second SoSo’s suggestion. Having something you can focus on outside of work means that it’s something else you can think about and get excited about. That can sometimes be even more energizing and recharging than unstructured time off. (Though unstructured time off is also Really Important.)

    2. Washi*

      You don’t mention anything social here- is your friend life all that you’d like it to be? Even as an introvert, I find just going on a walk with a friend to be very refreshing, and this might be a time to make sure that you’re investing in the friendships that bring you joy.

  37. Ordancer*

    Hi! I’ve read this site for years without ever actually posting, but I am in desperate need of some advice…hopefully this doesn’t come off too much as a screed.

    I started in public accounting almost two year ago on a team at the same time and level as someone else (Fergus). Since then, I have received excellent reviews and been told by my seniors and managers that they consider me to be very high-performing. I want to take on more responsibility and substantive/complex projects, but they are almost all going to Fergus, who I have spoken to and thus know we have gotten very similar reviews. This year, we are splitting our large audit team into two segments – Fergus is being made the senior on one segment, while I am staying in a more associate position on the other segment. The segment that Fergus is in charge of contains most of the areas I have worked on (and was in charge of last year) and now I will have no further involvement on them and will only work on a few cycles in the other segment.

    I told my manager (who is also my coach, the person assigned to help me figure out career progression, etc) at the beginning of the year that I would like to work on more areas of the audit and take on more responsibility, and he told me the splitting of the teams would be a great opportunity. This was before I found out that Fergus would be in charge of the one segment. Now basically all the client relationships and knowledge areas I’ve worked to develop over the past two years are being ripped from me and given to Fergus so he can be the senior and I can be in a lower position elsewhere.

    I’m beyond frustrated. I’ve expressed my desire to take on more responsibility and work on more substantive projects, have volunteered for (and assigned myself when given the chance) such projects, have gotten great reviews – and yet I feel like I’m not getting the responsibility and projects that my coworker who gets the same ratings as me is. What else can I do? Talk to my manager/coach again? How do I approach that conversation?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I hope others will weigh in from the accounting field, but just wanted to say that I do hope you’re job searching. Being passed over in favor of a colleague is the most common indication that you should look elsewhere so you can be valued the way you deserve.

      1. Emily S.*

        I agree with this. It could be time to look elsewhere, where you may find something with more responsibility, advancement opportunities, and higher pay.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      First thing, in public accounting it’s not that unusual to rotate clients every so often. Use this opportunity as a lesson in letting go.
      Second thing, next time you talk to your boss tell him you appreciate being told you’re high performing and specifically ask him about why this hasn’t translated to more complex work and opportunities like other people have had that started around the same time as you. You will gain some insight here.
      Third thing, the reality is you’ll probably have to move out to move up. two years in public accounting at your first firm is a good run. Brush the dust off your resume and open yourself up to other possibilities.

    3. Boredatwork*

      What you described is very common in public accounting – I’m going to assume you work for a larger regional/national/Big4.

      You definitely need to practice letting go. They probably moved you to a different section because you said you wanted to try/learn new things. Until the audit gets started, you won’t know if what you’re assigned is better or worse than Fergus.

      Also, have you asked your manager if you’re on track for promotion? I know you feel like Fergus is getting to be acting senior sooner than you but it could just be that the engagement you’re assigned is more complex.

      My last point – it’s been 2 years, if you’re on track to be promoted to senior, and overall can handle the hours/work load, give it some time. The longer you survive in public the better your jumping off points.

      1. Ordancer*

        I was definitely very excited when my manager first told me about the split and was excited to work on some different areas. But now that we have started the audit, I am in a preparer role on only three areas (two of which I already worked on last year, and none are all that complex) while the other associate is getting the opportunity to review work from newer associates, manage the project plan, and is constantly asking me questions about the processes and client contacts in the process, it gets very wearing. I do appreciate the perspective! Part of my struggle is definitely wanting to stay on longer like you’ve said, but it’s increasingly difficult as I keep getting passed over and not getting what I ask for like this.

    4. Jane of all trades*

      Hi Ordancer!
      I think it could be due to one of two things, and I would encourage you to find out which one –
      1) is it possible that out of two very high performing people Fergus exhibits more traits that are needed to lead a team? And maybe you are more of an expert in the subject matter? Or that Fergus is just a little bit ahead of you, even though you are both very strong performers? I think if you come to conclude that this is the case, then I would try not to worry about it so much. Just keep pushing, seeking out new projects and responsibilities, and have a clear line of communication with those of your superiors who are in decision making positions about the advancement you are seeking.
      2) it is also possible that your firm (or at least the team you are on) does a poor job identifying the right people for promotion, and instead go with promoting the person they have more of a personal relationship with. To put it more bluntly – are you a woman / minority in a ‘boys club’? This happened to me at the beginning of my career in public accounting, and it was very difficult. It took me years to figure it out, and it felt similar to what you are describing – I would get excellent feedback, and have tons of work to do, but the projects I wanted would go to men, some of whom were clearly less qualified than me. These people would be invited to meetings, special events, and so on, and none of that ever happened for me, regardless of how much I asked. Through the help of some other people in my firm I ended up switching teams and working for different partners who thankfully do not operate the same way. That has been such a fantastic and freeing experience, and I have been able to grow and take on responsibilities, volunteer for projects and generally just feel like I’m in the driver’s seat when it comes to my own career.
      Long story short – if you’re otherwise happy at your firm, I’d suggest investing some time to make sure that there weren’t other, valid reasons for promoting Fergus over you. Maybe if you have a mentor you trust ask them, and try to be very receptive to candid feedback if they are willing to provide it. If you come to the conclusion that Fergus was promoted over you because your bosses do not recognize your value, then I would try to see if there are other teams in your firm, or even other firms, that are a better fit. Best of luck!

  38. Blue Anne*

    New boss would like me to pick my title – Finance Manager, or Controller? I think Controller would be better, right?

    New job is nice s far but I’m feeling like a victim of my own success. The idea in switching out of public accounting was to find something more laid back, maybe even part time, so I could put more focus on my side business. I applied to this role because it was advertised as a bookkeeping/admin type role with some marketing. Kind of an all-rounder Office Person at a small manufacturing company. Then I interviewed and they said well, we’d love to have you join us, and with you we see a lot of potential for growth. Now I’ve been here for about a month, I’m going to be listed as Controller, I’m training to take over when the Finance Director retires in a year, I’m going on trainings and overnight business trips and they just bought me an ipad for some reason? It’s nice, but they’re definitely expecting me to be here for at least 5-7 years.

    There’s some “ha ha, take this patriarchy” appeal to being a 20-something female pink haired Philosophy-major Controller at a manufacturing company in the Midwest, but geez. Should’ve applied to coffee shops and bars.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Just want to say that I’m happy to see you here and that you’ve found a job with nice people who are investing in you, and I hope that even if the workload increases, you find this one to be much less stressful than your last gig. And yes, Controller. I would love to have “Control” in my official title, but sadly, I have no accounting experience. :)

      1. Blue Anne*

        Thanks! It’s definitely a very nice switch. Right now I’m sitting playing with my spreadsheets, windows open on a beautiful day, having a beer my boss handed me. And I actually get to leave at 5!

        My family have noted the improvement in my mental health and asked what made the difference, so we could be sure I stuck with it. I told them I think I should be fine as long as I never go back to public accounting. :)

        1. Blue Anne*

          That’s what I was thinking. I couldn’t really figure out the ladder between Finance Manager, Controller, Finance Director but I think Controller sounds good. At least until I take over from the FD. :)

    3. Gertrude*

      Controller. I hear Finance Manager and assume they’re lower in the hierarchy than a Controller.

    4. Tableau Wizard*

      Yay Blue Anne!! Glad to hear things are working out so well for you. No real advice, but yay!

    5. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I’m partial to comptroller. But given the choices, definitely go with controller.

    6. OlympiasEpiriot*

      You could go old school and use Comptroller. Do you oversee internal audits? Then you could definitely make a case for that word.

  39. Decorating ideas*

    I just moved in to a different office and it sounds like a cave. There was an extra chair but my supervisor didn’t like it and told me I should get rid of it. I really can’t have visitors in my office anyway because I work with personal health information so I don’t really need an extra chair but now its so loud. Any ideas on how I can incorporate some fabric or something sound dampening?
    Also, an ideas on where to get inexpensive art prints? The executive assistant has commented on the bare walls and said I should bring my own in before the designer sees and puts up something for me.
    Thanks!

    1. Manders*

      Maybe some hanging tapestries could do double duty as decoration and sound dampeners? The huge ones that cover a whole wall probably won’t look great in an office, but smaller ones could work. A big cork board might also help for filling wall space and cutting echoes a bit.

    2. epi*

      I have gotten art prints I really like from Fab, often they’re available framed if you want that. If you don’t want to pay for real framing for an inexpensive print, I have put nice things together for cheap using Michael’s frames and a neutral fabric layered beyind the print to look like a mat. It won’t preserve your art as long term as real matting, but unless your office is really humid or the art is really beloved it should be OK. You can also use it to buy you time. :)

      You might want to put a couple of rugs down. This tip probably won’t blow your mind, but I have gotten very cute and inexpensive ones from both Target and Ikea. Target has a way bigger selection online that goes on great sales– I had a large rug shipped from them and it worked out great.

      1. BadWolf*

        Michael’s also has prints of assorted size — you could maybe get something big and cheerful and the frame to go with it (check for sales and coupons– usually different frames on sale every week).

    3. Canarian*

      Foam egg-crate material (also called acoustic foam) does great for absorbing sound. Probably not something you can hang on the walls, but attaching it in discreet places, like the underside of tables and desks, could help with sound dampening.

    4. Fiennes*

      Is the floor tile or otherwise hard surface? If so, getting an inexpensive rug on Overstock will help absorb a LOT of sound.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My boss and I selected a rug and heavy curtains to take the echo sound out of our room. It helps a lot. She picked curtain poles that were much wider than the window. Then she hung two curtains on each side of each window. This gave the illusion of a larger window and allowed us to run the cloth across the walls a little bit.

  40. Forking Great Username*

    Disappointing start to my job search. I completed student teaching and my degree last month, and the district I student taught in liked me – asked me back for a long term sub job for the rest of the school year, mentioned that a couple of English teachers are retiring at the end of the year, told me to apply, etc. While I know you can’t be certain until you have the job, things were looking good.

    Now it turns out someone is transferring from another school for one of the spots, and the other isn’t being filled – administration is just going to increase class sizes. While I know that’s probably a sign this isn’t the right school for me anyways, I’ve really enjoyed the students here and am bummed to not be able to teach any of them next year in a more official role. And I wish I hadn’t accepted the long term sub job, because that means I won’t get a chance to get to know people in other districts as I begin applying for other jobs/schools.

    1. Hidden Trout*

      Fellow teacher here. I’ve had a miserable job search this time around, but wanted to say this: the long-term sub job gave you valuable experience in sticking with a group of kids over a period of time. That’s going to give you lots to talk about during your future interviews. Best of luck!

      1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        This! Per diem subbing isn’t super useful for networking, in my opinion – I don’t know anyone who has gotten a job, or even an especially good recommendation, exclusively from subbing a few days here or there. Also, even the best per diem subs don’t usually get to demonstrate the kind of skills that make administrators stop and take notice. Having a long term sub job on your resume is much more valuable and says more about your ability to actually do the job!

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      Plus you never know. Someone might get pregnant, or move away. There is all sorts of movement in schools over the summer and by being a long-term sub, you’ll be fresh in their minds.

  41. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

    Just a random slice of life in the office story today…

    I have an employee who is coming up on a milestone anniversary (4o years), this employee is a very quiet person who doesn’t like the spotlight at all. Ironically we have another employee in a different group who is also getting ready to celebrate the same milestone anniversary. So that team is going all out on the celebration, decorations, dinner, gifts, cake, crowns, t-shirts, etc. (This employee will love all of this fanfare)

    I quietly spoke with my employee this week and let her know that her team was going to want to do something to honor the day. The poor thing panicked, I had to quickly explain that why I was talking to them was to get an idea of what they would be comfortable with. I mentioned the other celebration plans and said that her team knew her well enough to know that kind of celebration would not be appreciated and they wanted to know what the employee would be ok with.

    We settled on a gift (think commemorative teapot for someone who works at a teapot company) and a card quietly left on the desk, with no other mention of anniversary.

    1. CBE*

      Wish more managers took the preferences of the employee in mind for these occasions! Nicely done.

    3. Jennifer*

      That’s very Leslie Knope of you!

      (Think Ron’s birthday vs. Ann’s, if you watched the show and don’t recall.)

  42. epi*

    Just getting something out and wondering if anyone else has been through similar–

    Someone I was friendly to in my office last year started pushing past boundaries in a way that seemed like it was escalating towards stalking. My boss and the HR person I brought it to were really helpful, HR talked to the guy, and because he backed off he still works here. (We have no need to interact for work, we are grad students who work on totally separate projects.)

    In the past week or so I’ve felt really bothered by what happened. I wish I had asked that he move his desk somewhere else or not even work in this building anymore. I’ve run into him elsewhere on campus– places we both had every right to be– and I can’t really tell if I am right to be freaked out. Right now I feel like I am just playing a waiting game to see if there are more coincidences like this to help me decide whether to report it.

    Meanwhile the policy in my office is for us to post our names and hours publicly on our desks and our admin will not let it go! My boss told her last semester I won’t be doing that. This semester she wants to know if I can post my hours without my name. Ummmmm since anyone who’s ever walked through the floor once would know who sits here, that’s not private at all, and no?

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Since there are valid, innocent reasons for him to be in those locations, I’d just note it and sit on it for now. Maybe switch up your routine a bit? If he is following you he’d shortly start showing up in the new places. If it escalates at all or continues past the point of random encounters, definitely talk to your manager.

    2. BadWolf*

      I feel you. I had a coworker and was dancing in stalker territory. Fortunately after some manager talks, he backed off. He was not moved out of our department. I did start changing some of my routine when I realized he’d be walking the same way. It sucked. He was actually let go a relatively short time later (I suspect he was not moved because he was probably on some sort of PIP).

      Sometimes I regret not asking for him to be moved. But this way, I did look like the bigger person, I guess. I don’t know.

      1. epi*

        Thanks for your reply! I’m sorry that happened to you.

        It is so hard to ask for all you need (or guess what you will need) at the time you are first reporting it. This was someone I’d been friendly to, accepted some boundary violations because there was a cultural difference I was trying to be sensitive to, and then pretty quickly realized that as I was backing away, he was getting more insistent about monitoring me and following me. At the time I was talking to HR about what I wanted to happen, I don’t think I really *got* yet how troubling the behavior was, because it was stuff I’d been accepting up until a few days earlier.

        The HR person offered repeatedly to move *me*, which I really did not want. I have a good reputation here and sit near people senior to me I am very friendly with, and the desk on offer would have been nowhere near anyone. I wish I had asked for *him* to have to move there, but at the time it felt like that would be vindictive. I wasn’t mad yet, I just wanted it to stop.

        I consciously didn’t change my routine for a while, because why the hell should I? But lately I’ve found that I want to. I hope I’m wrong, but if I’m right then I need to know.

        1. essEss*

          As an fyi – in California it is illegal for the person who makes a harassment complaint to be the one who has to make accommodations to a less desirable position/location. I had to take harassment reporting training specific to California because they have more rules about how to handle it.

        2. Different username for this one*

          I’m so sorry that this is happening to you, but I’m grateful that you are posting about it. I am currently trying to figure out how I am feeling about a situation of somebody behaving inappropriately toward me too.
          I so recognize myself in your saying “accepted some boundary violations” – I think that is something I am prone to do too, especially when the violation is so subtle that it can be chalked up things like cultural differences or misinterpretations. In my case, a person who is very sporadically in my office (think every 6 – 8 weeks for a day or two) started touching me in very subtle ways – think a hug as a greeting, or touching your leg during a movement. This is not at all part of our office culture, but was always very subtle, that it took me a while to identify there was a pattern. I didn’t bring it up to anybody because it is a weird thing to bring up, and because it was so subtle I felt like people would just think that I was being too dramatic. So I let it go, and just wasn’t in the office (through a mix of chance and my scheduling) the next few days the person was in the office. Then the behavior stopped, and we kept interacting like we would with other coworkers. Fast forward a year later, very recently, when we were both at a multi day firm event. This person got drunk during the after dinner social, and began to be super creepy toward me, ending with the person kissing me on the cheek several times (actual kisses – not the European greeting type kiss).
          I haven’t processed yet what I want to do about this, if any. Right now I am feeling very frustrated because throughout my entire career I have never given anybody any indication that I am there for any purpose other than doing my job, and I felt reduced to my body, and that that took away from who I am and who I want to be.
          So I am proud of you for speaking up, and for sticking to your guns! Don’t change your routine, and don’t allow this person to control the space you occupy. They are the ones in the wrong. Also, don’t be hard on yourself for not requesting that they be moved elsewhere. I think when something like this happens we don’t know yet what to expect or how we would feel about the situation once routine sets back in, so you couldn’t have known early on that this is what you needed. Hopefully the person will just be gone / fired / whatever, soon.

  43. Almost Violet Miller*

    Anyone up fot a thread about business travel best practices/gadgets?
    What comes to my mind:
    – I always buy milk and food that keeps in the fridge before the trip so I have dinner/breakfast after I get home
    – I have a laptop bag with a small compartment for a water bottle that I can tuck into the bag when not in use (perfect hand luggage)
    – I bring healthy snacks so I don’t buy chocolate to keep me going during a busy day

    I’m curious how you make frequent travel more fun (less of a inconvenience).

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I always schedule a little time to tidy the house before I leave, because I realized when I walk into my home after a trip and it’s a wreck, I have a terrible reaction. It will make me feel angry and bitter for at least twelve hours, and it’s pretty predictable! This is hard because I have housemates so they will leave messes – but I make sure my room is clean at least.

      1. KatieKate*

        Similarly–I always change the sheets before I leave so I can come back to fresh sheets. It really does a wonder on my sanity

      2. KR*

        This! I’ve been known to stay up all night before a travel day to clean my house because there is nothing nicer for me than coming back to a clean house and not having any chores to do when I get back.

    2. Fiennes*

      I make sure I have a certain number of creature comforts—a lotion bar for my hands, a pair of warm socks for a chilly hotel room at night, reading and listening material, etc. In other words, on work trips, if I’m not working, I’m pampering myself. Keeps you going.

      I count working out or at least walking as “pampering,” too. Exercise clothes are IMO worth the suitcase room. Travel can push you out of healthy habits and into unhealthy ones; I find making the time to hit the hotel gym helps keep me on track.

      The White Noise app! My phone turns into a great white noise machine at night, which has transformed my hotel experience. Makes it much easier to get a good night’s sleep.

      1. Totally Minnie*

        I always try to plan gym time for work trips as well. And if I can swing a day off after I get back, I like to schedule a massage. Sitting in those conference hall chairs and airplane seats can do a number on a person’s body.

      2. epi*

        Workout clothes are the best on work trips. I don’t usually go to the gym because I have no idea what the facilities will be like and just don’t block off time for it in my head. But I walk a ton and try to see the city.

        Workout clothes are also crazy comfortable to fly in, and awesome to sit around in if you want to chill in your hotel room but it’s not pajama time yet. And then if it turns out the gym is nice, you have them.

        I always buy myself fancy face wipes for travel, and the physical copy of a couple of silly magazines.

    4. JessicaTate*

      Another vote for the White Noise App! It is my essential. Also, a decent sleep mask, because hotel curtains never seem to close 100%.

      I got a S’well water bottle and am really committed to not buying water bottles. (So. Much. Plastic.) I like the S’well one because it’s a little thinner than a Camelback or Hydroflask and the cap is really leak resistant – which mean I can shove it in my work bag without fearing my wallet/tablet/laptop will get damp. P.S. I love the airports that have installed water fountains with bottle-fillers. They all need to catch up on that!

      I also second the importance of making time for fitness, even when colleagues look at you like you’re crazy to prioritize such a thing. It’s “me time.”

      1. JessicaTate*

        Oh, and packing cubes. I resisted for years thinking it was nonsense, until I tried them. They. Are. Amazing.

    5. periwinkle*

      1. I leave a daily tip for housekeeping. Before the trip, I’ll go to my bank to convert larger bills into dollar bills, and then use paper clips to portion out the daily tips.
      2. If I’m not familiar with the hotel surroundings, I’ll use Google Maps to look for drugstores, delis, and other conveniences. If there are good options nearby, I’ll pack just a few snacks. If not, I’ll pack more substantial food like cheese and sausage (plus utensils and a few paper plates).
      3. Apps, apps, apps! I rely on SeatGuru when booking flights, GateGuru while traversing airports, TripAdvisor if there’s a hotel choice, and Yelp for restaurant options. I check in ahead of time in airline apps and hotel apps – Hilton even allows you to pick your room and use your phone as the room key (in many properties).
      4. Collapsible water bottles are awesome.
      5. Canvas or vinyl pencil cases are also awesome. I use them to organize small but useful things like USB cables/plugs, tea bags, and the aforementioned tip money.

      1. periwinkle*

        Oh yeah, and creature comforts… I always pack The Body Shop’s satsuma body wash. That powerful tangerine-y aroma is refreshing after a long day. And cocoa butter body lotion! I go to sleep smelling like a Terry’s chocolate orange.

    7. Thlayli*

      Best tip is to use google maps a LOT before you go. Figure out best location for hotels and transport to and from hotel and business location. Look for nice restaurants in walking distance. Look for transport routes that go past interesting sights or near places to go shopping, so you can fit in some personal stuff on your down hours. If you’re traveling near a weekend or can reasonably take a day off before or after, see if you can stay another day – you will have to pay expenses for the extra day but there’s no travel cost.

    8. Ali G*

      I have a pillow cover/blanket kit that is a lifesaver. It’s cashmere (I know sounds excessive but it’s sooo nice). The blanket folds into the pillow case – but when you take the blanket out the pouch is a perfect cover for the gross airline pillow. It’s a nice way to stay warm and also take a nap/sleep on a red eye.
      And I’ll put another plug in for the white noise app (I actually have a machine I travel with, but I’m really picky).
      Last, my S’well water bottle is great and a lot of airports have bottle fillers. Also the water stays cool for a long time, even in a hot car.

  44. Mouse*

    Hi everyone! Any advice on having two bosses with different philosophies? I’m the assistant to both the CEO and CFO of a mid-sized company. I also do a LOT of other things–we just went through some downsizing and I took on a lot of slack, so in addition to my own job, I absorbed about 75% of a second role and pick up some other slack here and there. My two bosses have conflicting philosophies fairly often (though we’re pretty informal and all get along very well), but the one I’m struggling with now is overtime. I am nonexempt. One boss would love it if I worked 60 hours a week, and I’m in his budget, so he’s happy to approve it. He loves that I’m taking on more work and is willing to give me the resources I need to complete it. The other boss believes that if you need overtime, you’re not working hard enough during the week. He’s my official, on-paper manager, so I feel like I should prioritize his thoughts, but as I said, the other boss is the one who actually approves the overtime, so I can usually “get away” with working extra without stingy-boss knowing. I’m not sure how to navigate this!

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve got a similar issue re different philosophies, but in my case it’s causing morale and motivation problems on the team. Communication is probably key.

      1. Melimania*

        Would it be possible to have a meeting with both of them to review job duties, priorities, and overtime policy? Laying out what you are doing, what you have been asked to do, what that realistically means for hours (and what might not be able to get done, especially with overtime constraints). In the past when I’ve been in a similar situation, its been helpful to get the everyone in the same room to iron out things like overtime approval and how you should handle competing priorities. Additionally, what the long term plan is for the position, extra duties, etc. Also, are you getting an increase in pay, title, etc to go along with the increasing duties? And will your job description be updated to reflect the changes if this is permanent? If this is temporary then for how long and what has to happen to move the duties back off your plate? Talking them both through what is on your plate together can go a long way to helping them understand what’s going on in your position (and forces them to confront the overtime issue head-on). While I’m sure they are aware you have more duties, they probably both don’t have a detailed understanding of what has been added and what that means for your work. Each will be more attuned the items in his own realm. Also getting them to be really explicit about how you should handle their conflicting philosophy’s will be helpful for your continued success. As I’m A Little TeaPot said communication is key.

    2. Tara S.*

      Maybe bring up with official boss that other boss has been encouraging you to take overtime, and how they would like you to handle that? Ideally they would either become more comfortable with you putting in overtime, or they could give you info/language to use with overtime-liking boss. Like, ” Oh, Fergus told me he doesn’t want me putting in overtime, so I’m trying to keep it to a minimum!”

  45. Ama*

    So with the warm weather here in the northeast U.S. the sidewalk canvassers have been out in force again (I saw at least three distinct groups yesterday in a two block radius around my office). They never really go away here in NYC but they get much worse this time of year. I have heard that some of these groups employ college kids under really appalling conditions (basically promising them free rent in NYC then sleep them six to a room in sleeping bags, and then using the “free rent” to pay them less than minimum wage). I’m curious about a couple of things:

    1) If you’ve ever worked as a sidewalk canvasser, what was your experience actually like?

    2) If you work for an organization that employs sidewalk canvassers, what are you getting out of it? Some of these canvassers are representing extremely well-known nonprofits and, tbh I always think a little less of the nonprofits that do this because it seems like it would have a very low return on investment and also create a negative impression of your organization with those of us who have to run the gauntlet of canvassers every day. I’m genuinely curious.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I worked for a well known org that used them – believe me, they have done the analysis on the returns before they chose to do it. The numbers hold up. In some cases, what tipped them over was the opportunity to connect with younger and more urban audience versus their usual lists of wealthy white people of the suburbs.

      1. epi*

        I really doubt that this is working out that way. As a young urban resident, everyone I know was an expert at dodging these people within a year of moving here. We think poorly of them and of the organizations that employ them. I never give them money because it’s a horrible practice and I don’t want to encourage it. I have heard the same things about it as Ama.

        I only saw people who were clearly tourists actually stop for them, and the occasional new resident who hadn’t mastered not making eye contact yet. Just because they’re getting donations within the city limits does not mean that residents are the ones stopping.

        1. Temperance*

          Same. I dislike being hassled, so I don’t donate to orgs who put people out on the street like that.

          1. Tau*

            Honestly, I think this is where the aggressive/coercive tactics pay off. Assuming sidewalk canvasser = charity mugger (UK terminology), I find they’re very, very good at making the social contract work for them until you feel there’s no way to get out of the situation other than donate. I ran afoul of this once, and the whole process left a very bad taste in my mouth even though it was a charity I’d considered donating to before. There are some specific social vulnerabilities I have because of Asperger’s (such as: it’s extremely hard for me to intentionally break social norms, I’m predisposed to think that my perception of a social interaction is less trustworthy than the other person’s, and I’m sort of programmed to go along with the flow even if I don’t fully understand what’s happening) which I suspect are going to be common among people with various other developmental disabilities or mental health issues. My interactions with charity muggers always feels like they’re deliberately targeting those vulnerabilities, which is gross as all hell… but, I’m sure, profitable.

            1. WS*

              This has been reported many times, including charity muggers taking intellectually disabled or elderly people into the bank to get them to sign up direct debit donations, or to withdraw money and hand it over straight away. Banks are having to train their staff to watch out for this. My partner is also on the spectrum and has had to train herself to say a loud, “No thank you!” and keep walking whenever someone with a badge or a clipboard approaches.

    2. EmilyG*

      I am not a fan and it really frustrates me when I see orgs I support using them. I once encountered a young man whose eagerness to talk to me led him to follow me down a whole block; it was more like street harassment than fundraising. I complained to the organization he was fundraising for.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I didn’t mention this in the original post, but yesterday I happened to be in line behind a group of canvassers getting lunch (I don’t know who they were representing because they are from this new group that wears full business dress instead of the T-shirts of the organization) and they were encouraging each other to use some pretty aggressive tactics to keep people from walking away from their spiel.

        I just wonder how many of the people who approve using these canvassers have experienced what they are actually like to encounter on the street.

      2. deesse877*

        I’ve had similar experiences. Honestly, even done ‘right,’ it’s basically the same thing as street harassment: imposing on someone’s politeness as a power move.

      3. epi*

        I have had issues like this as well. I used to live in a pretty popular area for tourists to visit, so there would be canvassers basically on my block where I lived when I was nearly home from work. I had one guy, who could clearly see I had headphones in and who I had declined to make eye contact with, stand in front of me while I waited for the light and yell right in my face.

        People downtown in my city use openly manipulative tactics to try to get you to stop, like walking right into your path and holding out their hand for a handshake so you have to snub them to go about your day. Basically street harassment.

      4. Louise*

        Oof yeah, once a canvasser came up to me while I was in a park, reading, and with headphones on. He locked me into a ten minute cnversation and wouldn’t leave until I finally just said “look dude, I work in the non profit industry, and I don’t give money until I’ve checked out their financials. Please leave me alone.”

    3. Emily K*

      I work for an org that does not use them. Our leadership is not comfortable trusting relatively untrained and entirely unsupervised contract workers to represent us in public.

    4. CatCat*

      I don’t have responses to your questions, but it’s interesting to see the reactions. When I was on the east coast, they were common and then when I moved to the west coast, I saw them a lot less often (though with increasing frequency).

      Canvasser strikes me as a tough job. I typically just smile and say, “No, not today, thank you!” and move on.

      But I actually have also given money a couple times because seeing someone out there will remind me, “Oh yeah, CatCat, you had wanted to contribute to X cause, you should really get on that.”

      I’ve never been harassed by a canvasser though and interactions have been cordial.

      1. Bibliovore*

        The two block walk to my subway was a gauntlet of fundraisers. My response to all was “I hate the earth, I don’t care about children, homeless pets or people. Let me pass.” I am under no obligation to be truthful to strangers who accost me on the street.

  46. Rat Racer*

    I have this really weird Work FOMO – it’s strange to me because I do not have any fear of missing out on anything when it comes to my social life. But oh my god, if the VP has a meeting and doesn’t invite me, I feel like I’ve been personally affronted. This week, the VP had a meeting at her house (which is really weird for a company of our size – we’re like a Fortune 50) and invited all her direct reports and some of my peers. The meeting was across the country, and frankly, I’ve been travelling non-stop for the past 6 weeks, and should have been grateful to be left off the invite list. Instead I feel like I just got slapped.

    In reality, what’s happening is that my job has changed – I was once the Chief of Staff, but now I’m in this weird hybrid role that doesn’t have a title, but it is definitely not a COS position. It’s not a demotion – just the result of re-orging the department and shifting responsibilities around. But I have this prideful part of my brain that freaks out about not being in the inner circle anymore, and it just will NOT shut up!

    Just venting and calling out this part of myself that I’m not proud of, in hopes that naming it will diminish it…

    1. Murphy*

      Thanks for saying this, I have this sometimes too! (For a little while, I was actually left out of meetings I should have been at, and had asked to be a part of.) I have to walk myself back from that knee-jerk internal reaction of “Why wasn’t included in XYZ?!?”

      You’re probably still just adjusting to the change.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This happens to me A LOT. It’s carryover from my last gig, where I knew the writing was on the wall when they stopped inviting me to meetings. At one of my past jobs, I could say, “Hey, why wasn’t I invited to that meeting?” and would often get, “Oops, we forgot, I’m so sorry!” or, “You have enough on your plate, I figured I would handle this one.” And all was fine. But at my last job? Warfare. So I get that feeling now, even though my presence isn’t necessary for most of the meetings I feel left out of.

      I hear you on the change thing. My job hasn’t changed but we’re in a slow period, and anytime that happens, the brain goes into overdrive. It sucks. No advice, just lots of sympathy!

      1. Arielle*

        Yeah, I once lost my sh*t at my boss’s boss (the CTO) because for the third or fourth time my boss had neglected to invite me to a DEPARTMENT-WIDE meeting and I got the “Hey, where are you?” Slack message 10 minutes in. My boss literally had two direct reports and could not remember that one of them (me) existed. I’m convinced he was sleeping with the other one but that’s a story for another time.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes when this happens it is because we are linking random things together.
      You have a new position that seems pretty ill-defined. Hey, that cannot be comfortable, no way.
      Next everyone gets an invite to a VP’s house and you so don’t. Okay you were not comfortable before this, it’s not reasonable to expect this non-inclusion to make you feel comfortable, when you were not comfy from the get-go.

      Trace the problem back to the original discomfort. Here’s a couple random thoughts:

      Look around and see what you can do to get your job defined and get yourself a job title.

      At the same time, ask if you should have been invited to that meeting. Because you lack a job title the VP may have forgotten, or may have made a bad guess as to whether to invite you or not. Worst case scenario, you find out that you were deliberately left off the list. Ask why or ask what was covered at the meeting. If topics were covered that you need to know about, then say so. Yes, go into the thick of the fire and find out why this happened.

      Last thought. You have this set up so you cannot win. If you had gone, it would have been too much travel. But you did not go so you automatically framed it in your mind as not being included. Can I just say that usually, when my thinking does not let me have a win, it is because I am fn tired. What if you ask about this and the answer comes back, “We saw the dark circles under your eyes and decided to let you go home.” Decide to think about this later, get some rest and then go back to it.

  47. PhD while working?*

    Has anyone pursued a PhD program while working? I just graduated with my master’s degree (yesterday!) while working full-time, and while it was tough, I was able to do it.

    I really want to go for my PhD. It would be in English, which has nothing to do with my current career but I really love my research and love being in school. But most of the programs I look at have stipends of $15K – $30K and are in HCOL areas. I have no one but myself to rely on, and I know that stipend would not be enough to cover everything in New York, Boston, or California.

    A lot of programs also say they don’t want anyone to work while in the program. I have a flexible enough job now that I could easily WFH or schedule around classes or teaching, but I’m uncertain if this is doable?

    The other issue I have is that my career is in project management, and I don’t plan to go into academia even if I do go for my PhD. I’d rather take my PhD and go off to work elsewhere. I have very little interest in teaching as a full-time career, and I know that’s looked down on in a lot of humanities programs. I want to pursue my PhD for my own personal benefit, but I worry about not having a full-time job with benefits and a stable salary to live on (and being out of the workforce for 5-7 years – I’m already 31, so that’s be a crucial chunk of time).

    1. Manders*

      I’m very doubtful that you could balance a full-time job with a PhD program. I guess it’s technically possible, but PhD research kind of expands to fill all the available time you have, and there’s a very good chance your professors will see you as less dedicated if they know you’ve got a non-academic job. It sucks, but politics can be a huge part of whether you graduate, and if you start off on the wrong foot with the department you might not recover.

      Why do you want to get this PhD if you don’t want to teach and you don’t plan to go into academia? I don’t mean to be discouraging, but you’re signing up for a really huge commitment to getting a degree you don’t seem to need and I’m not sure why.

      1. PhD while working?*

        As far as the job, I have a full-time job now where I can WFH whenever I want and it’s only busy during the three summer months and pretty dead for the other 9 months (dead as in, I spend most of the work day reading or taking walks or doing errands – and this is typical for the entire office – I did all my master’s research and wrote my thesis during work hours because there was legitimately nothing to do).

        I want to get the PhD because I want to go as far as I can with my research and my studies. And I truly think it’s a bit ridiculous that the only path after a PhD is academia. I’ve seen enough jobs that would prefer a PhD in humanities to know that there are other career options (my corporate company hires a lot of humanities PhD candidates, for instance). It’s not so much a degree that I need so much as a degree that I want. I went for my master’s because I wanted to pursue it, not because it would help my career.

        1. JessicaTate*

          This is a really interesting situation. To clarify: Do you feel like having the PhD would improve your chances (or salary) with the positions you envision (i.e., with corporations or non-profits, not academia)? I agree that academia is not the ONLY path for all doctorate degrees; but I always question whether it’s financially worth it. Could you get your dream job with just a Masters? Could you independently do the study and research without formally paying an institution money to give you those three letters? This is coming from my biased viewpoint, but I think a PhD costs a lot of money for skills and experience it’s possible to get other ways. It’s worth it if those three letters open a door that would be closed otherwise. But if it doesn’t open those doors… why?

          To your original question, like another poster, I am aware of doctoral programs that are designed for full-time professionals. But I’m not sure if I’m aware of them in a traditionally academic field like English. I more know of them for education, non-profit leadership, physical therapy, and other more profession-focused fields. But it’s worth researching – although may not be your dream school/program.

    2. Murphy*

      Congrats on the Master’s!

      I couldn’t do it, personally. I know several people who have, but they took a lot longer than they would have if they hadn’t worked. If that doesn’t bother you though, then it might be worth it.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My partner is most of the way through his PhD, so while my experience isn’t personal, it’s adjacent. His is in a STEM field, but I imagine things are similar at first. For the first two years, when he was doing mostly coursework, he would absolutely not have been able to hold down a full-time job. He was also TA-ing, and then he was an independent instructor, so that took up a lot of additional time. His funding is contingent on teaching, which he still does, but his assignments this year were pretty loose and easy.

      Now that coursework is finished, he has less structured time, but he is still expected to use that time for research and writing. He could probably have a part-time job now but not a full-time one. He’s very lucky to have me (SEZ I), because I make a pretty decent living and together we can afford a nice home and a nice lifestyle; without me, he would probably be in a shared student apartment and he wouldn’t be able to indulge some of his hobbies, but plenty of his cohort do just fine on the stipend, with some cut corners. We live in a medium COL area. A few people in his cohort have part-time jobs and internships, and while they’re managing, their dissertations get less attention than they should sometimes.

      However… I’m with Manders in wondering why now for the PhD? If it’s just for your own personal benefit, I would look into part-time coursework, or I would wait until you have a nice chunk of savings. I mean, personally, a PhD in the field in which I got my MA is the dream for when I retire, because I know I wouldn’t use it to build a career. But that’s a whole lot of time and money to spend– on a full-time basis– when you won’t reap the usual benefits. I think learning for its own sake is one of life’s great pleasures, but a PhD is a serious and often tough commitment.

      1. Manders*

        I’m also the partner of someone who was working on his PhD! We were in a very high COL area with a very poorly funded university (Seattle) and most students were being partially supported by their partners or family members because their stipend just wasn’t enough to cover expenses.

        Even though we were a two-person household that could live comfortably in a small one-bedroom apartment, some of the long-term consequences of having such a low income in an expensive area were rough on him. He developed some pretty severe gum problems after not having dental insurance for a long time, and the combination of prolonged stress + limited time to exercise + cheap food did some rough things to his blood pressure and cholesterol levels he’s still trying to recover from years later. A big chunk of his cohort developed mental health problems, and one had a heart attack. And after all that, his advisor developed memory problems and the guy who was brought in to replace him didn’t like what my partner was studying, so he had to leave with a master’s. So I really don’t recommend going back to school for a PhD unless it’s something you absolutely must have.

    4. Justin*

      About to start a doctorate (EdD) specifically designed for fulltime workers, so if anything I would say to look for one that is geared for such students. The previous cohorts say it’s plenty of work but that it’s very doable.

      I don’t know how many in English are geared towards workers, but ours is obviously geared towards teachers who are, mostly, not about to quit their jobs.

    5. epi*

      I think you should really take some time to consider this path. If you have a love of learning and research in English, there are other ways to pursue it than pursuing a PhD that you don’t plan to use. I am a PhD student in public health and IMO it is more appropriate to think of the PhD as the professional degree for academics– not something you might pursue just for personal enrichment like an MA. Among other things, time and mentorship within a PhD program will focus on preparing you for college teaching and research. They won’t but a good use of your time if you don’t plan to make a career of it, or a good use of your mentor’s time. This is why it’s looked down on– you are basically not there for the real purpose of the program. You wouldn’t be likely to be admitted to a good program, or to get funding, if you were honest that your purpose is not to ever use the degree.

      As an English PhD student, it’s highly likely that your stipend– for at least some of your program and possibly all of it– would be paid to you for being a teaching assistant, not for just being in the program. That is one of the major reasons you shouldn’t be working some other job. You will have a job. Being a TA in English can be particularly time consuming, as grad student jobs go. And if you don’t do it, you will be paying tuition.

      If you’re interested in pursuing higher research and education in English, I would recommend seeing if you have access to a tuition benefit through your employer that would allow you to take classes, enjoy the library access, and do more informal writing and research on your own. It’s even possible you could meet someone who would want to collaborate with you or keep in touch so you are part of that community. But it’s unlikely that a PhD program would be the right way to do it.

    6. Oxford Coma*

      My field straddles disciplines, and I found humanities graduate degrees to be completely unrealistic about offering working adult programs. At least locally, I found what I would almost classify as an elitist pride from program heads about requiring candidates to attend full-time classes and serve as a TA/adjunct despite having no interest in teaching. I leaned towards the STEM side for my grad degree 95% because of this attitude and the feasibility.

    7. Anon on this.*

      My Dad got his Bachelors, Masters, and PhD. all while working a full-time job and raising a family(well, I was an adult at PhD. I’m an only child. I was 10 when he got his Bachelors, 16 when he got his Masters, and 26 when he got his PhD.

    8. LibbyG*

      A PhD is traditionally sort of akin to a union internship program for academics. Yes, you take classes initially, but it’s more that you’re there full time as junior scholars, working on your research, teaching, going to talks on campus, and just having the time to be part of that scholarly community. You’re learning to be an academic by working with and being around academics. That’s why PhD programs expect that kind of immersion. It’s really different than a BA or MA program in that sense.

      You could always apply and see what happens. Maybe you can reduce your current paid work to half or three-quarter time or something? I can see the desire to do a PhD just for the sake of learning, but you’d be really out of step if you don’t see it as the first phase of an academic career. Maybe that’s OK.

    9. Gloucesterina*

      Hi PhD while working?,
      Congrats on your masters! You’re probably already very aware of this pattern from your masters program, but at many PhD-granting institutions, at least in the U.S., research is king, and teaching-centric roles are considered a distant second-best. (I’m not saying this bias is a good thing for anyone involved, teachers or students, of course!) But since you’re someone who primarily enjoys research and writing, you’d fit in well into the institutional culture of many of these spaces. And since desirable academic jobs in many fields are not exactly growing on trees, so your experience and interest in non-academic jobs will be a psychic/existential asset to you, since you won’t have to freak out in the same way about what happens after you finish.

      At least at my program, working a full-time job is functionally impossible in the first several years and completing several semesters of teaching on top of coursework is non-optional unless you want to be on the hook for tuition; people may work part-time as I do and (in rare cases fulltime) while in the ABD (all but dissertation) stage. If you are interested in this possibility, ask the school about how easy it is to secure a tuition waiver so that you are not paying the school thousands of dollars to write your dissertation!

    10. Thursday Next*

      I found my coursework semesters to be pretty intense and consuming—there was always more I could have been doing, too. As a Ph.D. student, my ultimate responsibility wasn’t the coursework, it was developing a strong research project, and convincing faculty that they should work with me on my orals and dissertation committees (based on the strength of my seminar papers and presentations, for the most part).

      Stipends are typically offered in exchange for service as a research assistant or teaching assistant, so you’d have to factor that time in as well.

      I often had some freelance work on the side, but nothing permanent or approaching full-time.

      Hope this helps as you consider your options!

    11. Fiennes*

      I agree with the majority—this is doable, sometimes, but difficult, and maybe isn’t worth it at this point in your career. If it’s purely a matter of your own learning — you can take individual classes as you go, and further your knowledge on your own. But if you go into a PhD program unrelated to your field of work, I see two main problems:

      1) your workplace isn’t going to understand the needs of your PhD program or be in any way set up to accommodate that. People who work in fields connected to their degree often have coworkers who’ve done the same thing, and/or industry policies and norms for dealing with it. You won’t have this.

      2) there is virtually no way that you’ll be able to give your utmost to your job OR your PhD. Most grad students with jobs not in their fields aren’t looking at those jobs as the foundation of future careers—they’re putting themselves thru school, the end. But if this IS the field you intend to work on, is it worth it to undercut your first few years as a professional?

      I’m not saying it can’t be done. Only you know how much meaning it has to you. But I think it’s important to weigh the real financial/professional/logistical costs of a PhD against that desire.

    12. Tiffany*

      Earned my PhD in educational policy in 2017 at an R1 institution. Worked full-time while I did and raised my daughter as a single parent. Coursework was intense, yet similar to master’s work. The most challenging aspects were the candidacy exam, dissertation proposal defense and writing the dissertation, as you would expect. I slept very little, gained a lot of weight, and felt stressed during the dissertation writing phase.

      Not all grad students are funded and often the stipends are low. Are funded students are strongly discouraged from holding a full time job. Some programs don’t permit part time students. Research programs, contact current faculty, staff, and students in those programs to get a feel for the culture in the department.

      It’s a mental game, you will be pushed and stretched in ways you can’t imagine. You’ll need a solid support system and clear understanding of why you’re pursuing the degree.
      My career is on higher ed administration and there was little guidance offered for those of us seeking alt-academic careers.

    13. anon for this*

      Here’s how I did it – this may or may not be an option for you. I started off full time at work and part time at school (one class plus research each semester). I saved money and PTO like crazy and worked an extra job over summer sessions. Then I switched to part time at work and part time at school.

      For my last year, I worked 2 days a month and covered the rest of the part time schedule with PTO/savings and went to school full time. Officially I was not supposed to work at all while on stipend; I did it anyway and graduated with no debt.

      But my company offered benefits to part time workers and a lot of places don’t do that. I also didn’t get a stipend or qualify for benefits from the school for any time except the final year – I had to pay my own tuition. And I wasn’t eligible for any teaching positions – but that may not be a problem for you.

      There was another person in my graduate program who worked while in school. They did it by paying for classes themselves/taking out loans and not sleeping more than 2 hours a night – I wouldn’t recommend that.

      I would check and see if you can find a graduate school that allows you to enroll part time, or even take classes without enrolling in the program and then transferring the credits toward your degree later. Classes are more affordable if you only take one or two at a time.

      Good luck! I have no regrets about doing my PhD this way.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, I think you would want to carefully and tactfully investigate the program’s policies *and attitudes* about students completing the work at a slower pace and about students not seeking academic career paths. In more prestigious schools/departments, you might be fine on paper but struggle to find support among faculty who may or may not still be living in the bubble that research is the only thing that matters, and that academia is the only career path that matters.

        In my own program, (MA followed by PhD, almost done!) you technically have 5 years to complete the MA before timing out. A person entered the program a couple years after me just for that reason–they had a chronic illness and were excited that they could take more time. But they had a hard time finding a faculty member who would agree to supervise the work and after enough chats with the incredibly hard-nosed director of grad studies at the time, she left the program.

        FWIW, I understand your desire to do the degree, and your attitude is about where I’m at now — I’m applying for ac jobs just to see, but completely ok with and also applying to non-ac jobs. I consider it an incredible privilege to have done what I’ve done but I honestly wouldn’t encourage others to do it.

        Under no circumstances should you do it without decent funding. Said funding may by contract prohibit you from doing other work at the same time, which is stupid but happens, and plenty of folks ignore it. Another aspect to consider is that grad student benefits (health insurance etc) may not be available unless you are enrolled as a full-time student, so the one-class-at-a-time model wouldn’t provide those things. Grad student jobs that would make funding possible, e.g. TA positions, might similarly require full-time enrollment. So just look carefully!

        I currently work with a few people who have done or are doing the PhD while working (as curators), so it certainly can be done, but I think it would be hard for you to get the experience you desire–taking your studies as far as you can–while only giving it some of your attention. I think part time or even full time while writing the dissertation is much more possible than during coursework, but you also risk dissertation limbo in which the years pass on and you still haven’t finished…

        Also, slightly facetiously but only slightly, consider that a lot of people get really, really tired of the thing they’re studying by the time they’re done. You might stay in a happier relationship with literature without the additional degree :)

        Good luck.

    14. OtterB*

      Congrats on your master’s.

      I know more about PhD programs in computer science than in English, but there are substantial culture differences across institutions about this kind of thing. Since you aren’t planning to jump into the cutthroat world of academic job-seeking, you don’t have to worry about program prestige for purposes of looking good to academic employers and can choose something that works for you. To me it seems like this would be based on some combination of the research strengths of the department, the adviser you would be working with, and the program rules and norms around PT students.

    15. PurpleViolet*

      I seem to be the dissenting voice here, but I think you can get a PhD while working. I worked full time during the last two years of my PhD program in a HCOL area because I needed the money and it worked out fine (and I really enjoyed having a full time salary as a graduate student). I did want to go into academia and now work as a professor. Here are my thoughts on this:
      –It’s a lot easier to work later in your program (when you are working on independent projects/your dissertation) than early-on when you have to be in classes at particular times. But, you can also check class schedules online. My graduate program had mostly late afternoon/evening classes, that were easy to combine with having a job.
      –Others posting are right that most of your work is on your own time and related to the research you do. I think knowing that you want to go into academia is a big advantage. You can lean-in or lean-out of research as much as you want without feeling the pressure to publish for the job market.
      –You need a job that is accommodating in at least two ways. (1) Not overly demanding in terms of work-load, because you will need to (partially) work on grad school stuff at work and (2) flexible on time, for when you need to go to campus for meetings during the day. I think, OP, it sounds like your current job satisfies both of these conditions.
      –I found having a full time job with a full-time salary and set hours (during which I could also do some grad school work) to be far preferable to and less time consuming than TA-ing. Grading/preparing for class, at least the first few times you teach, takes *a lot* of time, whereas having a full-time job that you already know how to do helps you better control and mange your time.
      **–At least for me, while I didn’t lie, I certainly did not advertise to my advisor that I was working full time. As far as she was concerned, I just worked from home a lot and got everything done that I needed to. Unfortunately, if your advisor/other faculty know that you are not interested in academia that may change their perception of you and the experience you have. (The counter-point means that their perception may become more accurate and put less pressure on you). I do think this is changing as more and more students pursue non-academic jobs.
      –I developed excellent work habits (like getting up at 5am and writing my dissertation for three hours before I needed to be at work at 9am). These habits have served me well to this day. BUT, realize that between working and graduate school that’s really all you’re going to do. So while you may not need to sacrifice your full time job, you will certainly sacrifice leisure/social time.
      –I loved graduate school and would have stayed in graduate school forever! I think it’s fantastic that you have the opportunity to keep learning, while continuing to work.
      –All that said, you can just pay for graduate classes and enjoy taking those instead of committing to the demands of a PhD (although it sounds like you do want to continue with your research).

      I actually feel pretty strongly that more people should work while completing their PhDs. As others have said, it’s pretty unrealistic to have adults devote 5 years of their lives to graduate school, while earning very little. I think this is part of what limits diversity within PhD programs and makes them inaccessible to anyone not either wealthy/married to a second income earner or young, healthy, single and able to live on a shoe-string budget.
      I think working during a PhD program would also alleviate a lot of anxiety around finding a tenure track job that many PhDs have and early-on introduce students to a broader variety of job options and help them consider how to market their skills in non-academic settings.

      1. WS*

        Yeah, I was at a lower income university in an expensive area and no grad classes were run before 6pm because it was tacitly understood that if they ran them in the daytime, everyone would be at work!

    16. Laura H*

      My mother did balance a full time job as she completed her PhD. I believe it took her 5 years to do. It is doable, but that was observed as a bystander who was away pursuing a bachelors of her own during the first year or two.

    17. Yellow Flowers*

      I’m currently completing a humanities Ph.D. program part-time while working at a university. Even here, with the support of my employer, it is TOUGH. I agree with what everyone else has said about balancing the time for studying and working. Unless you are in a program that truly supports part-time students, there are other obstacles. My program has a lot of part-time students, but no part-time support. The full-time students are in a cohort, and they get significant support. Not financial support, other than assistantships, but less tangible ones. They have the flexibility to take any class they want, while we have to find the ones that fit our work schedules. And the FT students are nice, but we are usually left out of study groups and extra things because we’re just not there.
      And I have been jealous of some of the FT students. I wish I could devote that much time to my research, but it isn’t practical.

    19. Dame Eleanor Hull*

      PurpleViolet makes some good points.
      I teach at a large midwestern university, and we have certainly had students complete a Ph.D. in English while working full time. They generally took only one or two courses per term, and it took them a long time to complete the full program, but it can be done. Your motivation is key. Definitely look into schools that are not top-tier, where they cater to working adults by offering night classes, for instance. The Ivies and Ivy wannabes will expect you to be there for the full immersive experience, as some commenters have pointed out, but there are schools that will give you a good, rigorous experience without being constantly on campus.

  48. Nancy*

    Ways to stay cool at work in hot weather? I’m a high school with no AC. I have closed the blinds and I have one fan I brought in from home. I’m wearing a sleeveless summer dress and sandals.
    Side note – So happy it’s friday!!! It’s been a long month and the end of the school year is around the corner (June 22 is our last day with the students). I will have a part-time job this summer, but it will be so nice to have a break.

    1. stej*

      There are these special towels that you put cool water on, wring them out so it’s not dripping, and lay around your neck. I learned about them when working in a manufacturing plant with a super hot machine, and they seemed to work!

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        I’m in the same boat as Nancy, and you just reminded me I had one of those towels in my car!! Thanks, my classroom has no windows and has hit over 30C with two fans going full time. Every day this week has been gross.

      2. only acting normal*

        During heatwaves in uncooled offices I’ve worn a wet-but-wrung-out, bandana-size, cotton scarf as a neckerchief (sort of 1950s style).

    2. Susan Sto Helit*

      You can buy cooling spray in some stores that can give temporary relief. The really good places to spray it are the back of the neck, wrists and feet – places where the blood is close to the surface of the skin.

      Dashing to the bathroom and running cold water over your wrists will have a similar effect.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Always having water on hand helps me. Of course this is more difficult if you can’t use the bathroom during the day (but if you’re sweating a lot, you might not need it anyway!).

    4. Emily S.*

      Small fans can be great. Some are battery-powered.

      You might look into getting a window fan if the other fan isn’t doing it. The product-review site Wirecutter has a recommendation for one that’s about $35, and supposedly quiet.

    5. Hamburke*

      I went to a high school with no air conditioning. The coolest room in June had 2 box fans in the window and one fan in the doorway. We definitely couldn’t hear when they were on but Mrs Johnson (math) would quickly teach the lesson, set us some individual/small group work, turn the fans back on and walk around making sure we were on track.

    6. Jaid_Diah*

      There’s a product called “JellyBeadZ” on Amazon that comes as a neck wrap and as a bandana/do-rag/skull-cap. I own a red skull-cap and man, it works great. You soak it and the beads inside expand and start cooling. I use ice water for the best effect.
      02Cool makes personal fans that you can wear around your neck on a lanyard. They also make misting fans. I’ve also see fans that can be attached to iPhones…
      Stay frosty!

  49. JDY*

    1. When is the right time during the interview process to ask to telecommute? I am unable to relocate but want to have access to good opportunities since I am specialized (ag industry/data). These positions I think are conducive to working remotely but I struggle with how to propose this. Sometimes its obvious such as when asked about relocation during a phone interview. But I recently had a video interview where my responses were recorded, the issue didn’t come up, and I didn’t have hiring manager contact info. I received a follow up offer for in-person interview. I’m inclined to mention this before scheduling in person interview/propose remote working to eliminate surprises and not waste resources if its a no-go. Thoughts?

    1. Jules the Third*

      Ask ‘what is the company position on telecommuting’ or ‘Does this position support telecommuting’ at any time, and if it’s a deal breaker for you, best to bring it up yourself early.

      For this one, as part of the response, you could say, ‘It didn’t come up in the initial interview, but my plan is remote working / telecommuting. Knowing that, are you still interested in the in-person interview?’

    2. Emilitron*

      If you mean full telecommute, don’t live in their area at all and you’d never consider moving there and you’d never have a desk at the office, then yes, this is a question you really do need answered before you spend time on an interview. If you mean options for few-days-a-week alternating time, that is less urgent, but I’d still consider an email with “I have a few questions about the job and the workplace that would be nice to know before I come in person, is there a time I could set up a phone call?”

  50. Lirael*

    So my boss is out on personal leave for three months. My area used to have four people, and we’ve gone down to me, my boss, and someone on a related team puts about half his time in with us. I had expected before she left that responsibilities would be shared a bit more between me and coworker, but the way it’s worked out is that most of her responsibilities have fallen to me except for a few that have gone up to her boss, and I’m just utterly overwhelmed and want to complain a bit. Plus I have an exam coming up that I’m supposed to get work study time for, and it’s so hard to make that happen with everything else going on.

    1. RedCoat*

      Maybe mention to her boss that with the shifting work load, it might make sense to bring on a temp?

      1. Lirael*

        I realized I didn’t mention that we do now have access to a small offshore team (who also assists a few other teams), so in theory I could shift off a lot of my work to the offshore team, but in practice, it takes so much training that at least short-term, it’s so much faster to do it myself. I think probably this’ll settle in to something reasonable as far as workload (and things will fall by the wayside, which my boss’s boss is understanding of), but what I’m going to be doing is much higher level decision making and not so much in the spreadsheets, and I’d vastly prefer to do the spreadsheet work. It’s honestly probably an excellent opportunity for me, it’s just really hard right now.

  51. Lil Fidget*

    I think I will be leaving this job soon (it’s been a very long search) and will have to switch fields. This week I was hit by a lot of melancholy thinking about all the good things about this job I will miss. I assume it’s normal, but I worry it’s a sign that it’s a mistake to make such a big change by switching fields. FWIW I did try to stay in this field first, but haven’t been able to find any good opportunities, which is why I’m switching now. I hope the feeling passes if I do get an offer and start getting excited about the change …

    1. Nita*

      It is normal, but not necessarily a sign it’s a mistake. I almost left my job after 10 years in one place. I saw a whole bunch of good reasons to leave at the time, but when I was actually looking the possibility in the face… it hurt my heart. It felt almost like I’d be leaving a home and a part of my family. My husband did leave a job of ten years. Again, he was happy to get out, it had grown very toxic toward the end, but even he went through a period of missing his coworkers and the career and relationships he’d built there. You even miss your old routines, when you leave a long-term job.

  52. Mielle*

    Does anyone have suggestions of high-paying entry-level(ish) jobs?
    I’m in my late 20s, but still entry-level in my career (I went back to school later). I’m single and don’t really have any hobbies, so I’m at a point where I’m willing to sacrifice some free time to work a lot, as long as I’m getting paid a decent amount, so I can pay off some debt and save some money. Any ideas would be appreciated :)

      1. Mielle*

        If there is something specific you want to know, I’ll answer it. Honestly, I was just hoping for a bunch of suggestions and then I can look into them and see if they’ll work for me.
        But I have a degree in marketing; it was super theoretical and I’ve never done in any work in marketing. I currently work for a large university and my work is pretty admin heavy and I don’t really enjoy it for that reason.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          What are your short/mid/long term career goals? What kind of work do you want to do? What kind of work have you done? Where do your strengths and weaknesses run?

          Your question without context is like asking, what kind of food should I eat? There are thousands of job types and industries out there.

          I don’t think this is what you were hoping for, but my advice is talk to the people who know you, ask them what they do, what kind of jobs are available in their industry, what kind of job they think you’d be good at and like. Ask people you know about their careers, and the careers of people they know.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            I do think it’s helpful to ask, “what am I uniquely good at” (if anything, but there is probably something) and “what do I enjoy.” And what kind of settings appeal to you – could you be okay in an office working alone, or would you rather be at a front desk engaging with the public / clients. Can you keep regular hours, or is that going to be very difficult for you? Would you love to be out and about all day?

            If you base your decision solely on money – which, fair enough, no judgement! – I’ve heard that the biggest rate of return to investment is usually medical-adjacent, something that is skilled but doesn’t require a four year degree – like interpreting scans or working with some specialized equipment. Many of the jobs that pay very well require a big up front investment in schooling, which I assume you’re not up for.

            1. Mielle*

              Thanks for your reply!
              I’ve tried making career goals/paths for myself based on what I think I would be good at and enjoy, but it hasn’t really gotten me anywhere. As in, I’m bored out of my mind at my current job and whenever I apply to other jobs that sound interesting, I don’t get them. So I’m at a point now where I do just want to focus on money. At least for a few years once I have my finances in order, then I can go back to looking at what I want to do.

    2. stej*

      Try Googling for highest-paying jobs…?

      Most high-paying independent contributor jobs will involve coding these days; there’s a reason why bootcamps have become so popular.

      Otherwise, management consulting and investment banking and those high prestige job pay tons, but those care a lot about pedigree. (Ivy league school grads)

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        I was also going to suggest software developer type jobs. As an entry level software dev, by myself I made the equivalent of the median household income for my state. I don’t know if I would classify it as “high paying” exactly, but it pays better than a lot of other professions do starting out. I out-earned my now-husband who had 10 years of experience in another field at that time. Tech companies tend to give good benefits too, although it’s not universal.

        That said, if I could go back I would not do it again. It’s high-stress, often sexist/bros-culture, you need a lot of knowledge about a lot of different aspects of computers (not just “I passed a class at a bootcamp”, like you have to really care about routers and hardware too even if that’s not your role), and you will most likely be on call (including weekends and middle of the night). It takes a certain type of person to thrive as a software developer.

        I hear actuaries also make a good starting salary (better than software devs in my area) but there is a lot of schooling and certification needed for that.

        1. Tau*

          I was also thinking software dev. I’d say entry-level salaries are decent, and rise sharply as you get some experience; I basically doubled my salary over 2.5 years. You can also finagle your way in without experience or the standard background if you do it right, although it really helps if you’ve got a STEM degree of some sort even if it’s not in CS.

          Re: the downsides… I’d like to think that you can get a job that will mostly avoid these, but it’ll take some doing, and I get the impression some of it is going to be harder to avoid in the US than in Europe, which is where I am.

    3. Nanc*

      Well, for the most part by definition, entry-level jobs are at the low end of the pay scale.

      If your current job has set hours you might look around for a second part-time gig that can be done telecommute or evenings and weekends (or whatever your normal free time is). Your degree is in marketing, what about finding a retail or part-time admin job in an area where you’d like to market? For instance, if you’re interested in healthcare marketing, how about seeing if a local retirement home or long term-care facility needs an evening or weekend receptionist? Hospitality marketing, hotels, motels, museums, tourist attractions. Technology marketing, try an electronics store or cell phone store–you’ll get great exposure to the vocabulary and you’ll see the marketing/sales materials and learn what is working for that store. Performing arts marketing–work at a movie theater, a community theater, etc.

      You’re in a good position as you currently have a job, even if it’s not making your socks roll up and down. Since you haven’t had a chance to use your marketing degree, if you’re sure that’s where you want to go, make sure you’re keeping your skills current. Join some marketing groups on LinkedIn, check out online marketing organizations like the Content Marketing Institute, keep up your social media skills.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    5. Lirael*

      If you’re comfortable with math/stats, you could take the first actuarial exam (or at least start studying for it) and then start looking for actuarial jobs – those are typically pretty high-paying, even entry level. But it’s really intense – I’ve been working on getting the first credential (ASA) for 10 years, and it’s been way harder than I thought it’d be. And your raises are tied to your exam progress. As much as I enjoy my job, I don’t know if I would decide to go down this career path again if I were starting over.

    6. Emily S.*

      Look for jobs as a Marketing Assistant. Also look at doing Social Media Marketing. These jobs won’t pay a ton (maybe in the $30k range, depends on where you live and other factors), but if you find one with a large firm or a marketing/PR firm, there can be advancement opportunities.

      1. BuffaLove*

        I’d amend that to “entry level and obtainable without a specialized degree.”

    8. Anon attorney*

      I’m thinking management consulting, since you say you’re not bothered about having a life for a while :)

      1. Mielle*

        Yeah, that was the only idea I thought of, but I’m not sure how to get into it.

    9. OlympiasEpiriot*

      This is way off the track other people are bringing up, but, commercial divers can make a really good salary. Most I know belong to a union which means decent benefits that are transportable between companies. The training doesn’t take as long as getting a specialized degree.

      It *is* extremely physical work; however, everyone I know who does it really enjoys it. (Unlike some other construction/industrial specialties I know.)

    10. WS*

      Depending which country you’re in, work in remote mining areas is usually extremely lucrative. Everything from basic admin to cleaning to machine operation. You have to be able to live in usually physically unpleasant (very hot or very cold) places, work long shifts and cope with the mental stress of isolation and possibly fly-in-fly-out work, but doing it for a year or two to save up and reduce debt is incredibly common.

    11. dataviznerd*

      I do data journalism and I get paid well. 1 year out of college and I’m earning 60k+. You need to learn how to code in R or JavaScript. Bonus points if you’ve studied something quantitative and qualitative (i.e. social science degree) but anyone can do it. The industry ranges from the artsy-type to the math-heavy folks and having a good combination of both will serve you well.

  53. Background Checks*

    Is there a non-red-flag way to ask what a background check entails? My spouse’s cousin wants a referral for an open position at my company, and I know he had a DUI a few years ago. The job would be R&D based, not financial/legal. I don’t want to stick my neck out if that sort of thing would tank his application.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think you could ask HR about this directly. The key is to do it with calm tone, like you’re asking a normal business question (which you are). “Hi HR, I have a question about our background checks. I have someone in mind who I think would be a good fit for Role X, but I know that he’s had a DUI in the past and I don’t want to waste everyone’s time if that’s a nonstarter. What do you think?”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Conversely, Cousin could check with the court where the case was heard and see if the court knows how long it would be on a BG check. Additionally, Cousin could get a copy of their driving record from their DMV to see if it is still on there.

      The one time I saw an organization check DLs is because their insurance company demanded it. And the people who had to have a DL check were people who drove as part of their job (similar to bus drivers) or people who could be reasonably expected to drive as part of their job, such as bringing weekly deposits to the bank. However, I don’t believe it was a deal breaker, the insurance company wanted it for their records.

  54. I can't tell if my employees are dating*

    So, here’s one I’ve never seen on AAM before.

    I’ve been a supervisor at my location for about a year and a half. When I took over, my predecessor told me she’d heard rumors that Jim and Pam were dating and had recently moved in together, but that no one had ever mentioned it directly. Now, it’s true that Jim and Pam have the same home address in our employee records, and sometimes one of them will say or do something that makes me wonder. One time Pam brought in something from home for us to use on a project, and later Jim mentioned that it was his, stuff like that. Jim has mentioned having a girlfriend, but Pam has never once said anything about being in a relationship and talks like she lives by herself.

    So if they are together, they’re the best at being in a relationship with your co-worker. Their work is impeccable and they don’t cause drama, and I ordinarily wouldn’t care if they were seeing each other.

    But Pam has a major medical condition and she’s going on long term leave for treatment. And Jim has been acting a lot more subdued and preoccupied since it started. Normally, if I had an employee whose partner was having medical difficulties, I’d try to offer some time off or work from home days in case he wanted to help with caretaking. But since no one’s disclosed a relationship to me, I can’t really do that.

    So I’m stumped. Is there any way I can offer a little extra compassion for Jim without making it clear that I suspect something?

    1. Tardigrade*

      I think the best thing to do is offer extra compassion for Pam, since she’s the one you know for sure who’s affected by her medical condition.

      If Jim reveals his potential relationship to you, then yeah, offer up all the WFH and other flexibility that you can.

    2. Murphy*

      I have friends who used to work together and did this kind of thing…it was very weird.

      Is there any policy against them dating? Because if there’s not, I might just take him aside and ask him. You could beat around the bush and mention that he’s been preoccupied lately and you were wondering if there was anything you could do, but it might be better to just be direct. You have some evidence that they live together, no matter what the relationship is.

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      maybe something like “Jim, I’ve noticed that you seem a bit subdued and preoccupied lately. I won’t want to pry, but if you need some flexibility to deal with anything in your personal life, please just talk to me” ? Or maybe not. I’m not good with this sort of thing

    4. Emilitron*

      You can provide information to Pam: Make sure people in your household know that we have accommodations for partners as well as family members. On the other hand, is this an explicit corporate policy that draws a line between romantic partners and platonic household members, i.e. leaving aside the question of whether Pam and Jim are dating, they’re obviously pretty close, and Jim would be providing extra support in terms of keeping the household running even if they’re “just” housemates, so if this is up to manager discretion, you can just use the word “household”.

    5. Jennifer*

      This is reminding me of how two people we know at work (used to work in our office until they got transferred) live together but NOBODY knows if they are actually dating or not, and everyone feels too awkward about it to ask.

  55. Anon today*

    So the nonprofit program I manage is losing our funding — not because we’ve done a shitty job, but because we’ve done a good job, and now the government agency we were contracted with thinks they can take what we’ve built and do it themselves. (Spoiler alert, they won’t be able to, but it’s going to take them at least a year to realize that.)

    There’s maybe a last-minute opportunity to write a grant for a similar program, which could mean I get to keep some of my staff (if we get the grant, and if they don’t find other positions before the grant comes through), but it’s due in a week and a half, and I just don’t know if I have the energy to make it happen.

    Such is life in the nonprofit sector, but man, it sucks. I just want to curl up and nap forever.

    1. Girasol*

      Oh man, I feel you. I’m a development director in a small shop and this has happened to us a few times. Is there any way you could spread the work out amongst several team members to make it more doable? Or brainstorm with your boss to figure out a game plan to write the grant proposal? Can you re-use existing content and documents to avoid having to re-create the wheel?

      What I’ve usually done is taken a breath, told myself I wasn’t necessarily committing to doing it, then written up a detailed list of exactly what it would take to pull this off. Then I’d ask myself, what would it take to get this done without going insane and sleeping at the office? Often that has led to some good solutions, but sometimes my boss and I agreed that it just wasn’t gonna happen.

      But ultimately, you gotta do what’s right for you.

  56. What's with today, today?*

    My co-worker is back to calling me four or five times an afternoon when I get off work (my shift is 5 a.m. – 1 p.m., his is 10 a.m. -5 p.m., small media business. Our boss is not in the office often, has been out all week and that is common). He has been with us for a year now. It’s not just me he’s calling, it’s happening to one of our sales guys and the office manager too. We’ve complained to the boss, who just says that he expects the co-worker to look to us for direction when the boss is gone, which is fine, except co-worker is calling for NO REASON! He’ll call for the most routine things, or things that could easily wait until the next day or could be easily texted, but he just won’t text! I have tried telling him it’s annoying. I have tried telling him to text, I have tried telling him this will hinder his career in the future and I don’t know what else to do. I ignore phone calls, have him set to do not disturb, but it’s still constant and ANNOYING! Help! I’m un-officially his supervisor but have no real power to do anything about this and certainly didn’t get a raise when I was given that responsibility. I don;t know what else to try and I’m starting to get mad at him about this. My next step is to start calling him at 5 a.m. when I’m at work and he’s not, so he can see what it feels like to me.

    1. BadWolf*

      Can you let him go to voice mail and then only reply when it’s important? Or is he also bad at leaving a message with relevant content?

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Just ignore it. Don’t answer the phone. If you can block him (sounds like you can’t), then do so.

    3. Emilitron*

      Have you told him these things (ennecessary, annoying, career-hindering) in general, or on the phone when he calls you at 3pm? If you (and all the other coworkers) pick up the phone and he tells you “Jim at Teapots Inc just emailed to update the arrival date” you say “that’s not an appropriate reason to call me after working hours. Goodbye.” Any time that any of you actually answer a question is encouraging him to keep calling. Any more information (even asking for details or debating reasoning “so long as they didn’t change the quantity that’s fine”) is encouraging him. Even ignoring him is encouraging him to try again until he gets hold of someone.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        Yes. I tried in general at first, then tried talking about specific incidences the day after they happened, while both at work, and now at the time it occurs (I’ve done this twice. Yesterday and today). We’ll see if it helps. I’m hopeful.

    4. BRR*

      Are any of his calls legitimate? If they’re not, can you block his number and say you’ll only be available by email?

    5. irene adler*

      “he expects the co-worker to look to us for direction when the boss is gone, which is fine, except co-worker is calling for NO REASON!”

      From this statement it sounds like he’s not been given any guidelines -from the boss- regarding circumstances when he should call you, et.al. He’s dismissing your words because you are not the authority and the authority is not giving him definitive instruction as to when he should call you (such as ” Only call when there’s a genuine issue that is time sensitive and requires more expertise” than what he has).

  57. HarvestKaleSlaw*

    Could I ask how to reject vendors as kindly as possible? We have to get multiple options for big jobs, and I generally have to spend a lot of time asking questions and negotiating terms before present the bids for a decision. I know the contractors put a huge amount of work into preparing proposals and decks and getting me information. What is the best way to deliver the news that we went with another provider? How much information should we give them about why they lost out?

    Also, at what point do we tell a contractor they didn’t get the job? Sometimes final contract negotiations with the top bidder drag out, but we don’t want to lose our other options until the paper is signed. We leave people hanging, which feels terrible, but we have sometimes had negotiations break down with our first choice and have gone instead with our second.

    1. JessicaTate*

      As a contractor who writes a fair number of proposals: give them as much information as you can about why we didn’t get the job. It’s incredibly helpful and gives insight that may help us hone our proposals in the future. (This kind of feedback is pretty rare.) The rejection is disappointing, but it’s not personal. It’s business and we move on. (Oh, and email. A phone call would be weird.) Anything we can know about why you made the business decision you did is so, so helpful in improving my business in the future. (I will be curious to hear what other folks on your side of the table say. Is there information you wouldn’t want to share with contractors?)

      And I think it would be great to know as early as possible. But I don’t feel like this is AS big of a deal. Honestly, I’m not holding out hope (or bandwidth) after I don’t hear from you for a while (or past the stated decision deadline). That said, it would be great to hear as early as you feel you can, even if it’s intermediate. (Kind of like a house that’s “sale pending.” You’re probably out of the running, but if the deal falls through, we may call you.) Unlike a job applicant might, I will not have any hurt feelings to learn I was your second choice if I get the contract at the end of the day. That is a win.

      Then again, my industry doesn’t get into really heavy negotiations after the proposal stage very often. So, I will be really interested to learn about the view from your side of things and in different industries.

      P.S. Thanks for being so thoughtful about this! As a proposal-writer, it can sometimes feel like there’s no way the recipient of these proposals actually cares about anything other than getting their deal / checking off the boxes that they got 3 quotes before going with their preferred vendor anyway. That is clearly not the case with you. So, thank you.

  58. Katniss*

    Somewhat silly question but:

    We don’t have a kitchen at my new job. I suppose theoretically I could clean Tupperware in the bathroom sink but that’s gross and rude so I won’t. Anyone have suggestions for ways to deal with a kitchenless lunchtime? We DO have a microwave and minifridge.

    2. Canarian*

      Maybe I’m gross and rude, but I’ve cleaned out food containers in the bathroom sink before. Washing up food certainly isn’t the grossest thing that happens in that room.

      1. Annie Moose*

        As long as you’re careful to clean out the sink and aren’t, like, dumping vegetables down the drain, I don’t see an issue with it. It’d be a little weird to walk into the bathroom and see someone with a bottle of dish soap and a scrub brush, but if it’s just a quick rinse, it’s not that big of a deal to me.

        Otherwise, yeah, maybe put a bit of water and a pump of soap in it, close the lid, and deal with it as soon as I get home.

    4. Sutemi*

      I have a kitchen but never clean my containers there. I will add a bit of water to a dish and then seal the lid, figuring that will make it easier to clean when I get home.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      I use pyrex, and just wipe it out with a wet towel into the trash, and wash it when I get home. I definitely think it’d be a bit rude to wash out in the bathroom sink, unless it’s a single-stall bathroom and you were meticulous in making sure you never blocked the drain.

    6. periwinkle*

      Wash stuff at home. I tote things to/from the office in a vinyl-lined lunch bag which can contain any messy bits.

    8. Robin Sparkles*

      We have a kitchenette and I still take my containers home… to be honest I don’t love using the common sponge. Anyway – I would just wipe it down with a towel and clean it home as usual.

    9. only acting normal*

      Don’t wash up in the bathroom sink. People were doing that in our office and it kept blocking the pipes – the bathroom sink pipes are not the same size as kitchen sink pipes, so they couldn’t cope with food bits or soup sludge.
      I always take stuff home to wash; it makes next to no difference hygiene wise to wait an extra hour or two (unless you’re storing it in the office for weeks between washes.)

  59. Lora*

    I need to think of professional goals for my usual corporate performance development thing, and I’m really struggling with it.

    -I’ve had 16 bosses in the past 6 years. 5 were fired with cause. 3 retired. 3 demoted to being non-managers. 2 in the same job but not promoted or developed themselves in any way, like they were a director then and they’re directors now. 3 changed jobs and are doing okay for themselves. Each and every one of these people gave me very different guidance and wanted me to work on different things. I’ve been kinda floating along in jobs without any real consistent feedback or guidance, other than “you need to be less blunt and more nicey-nice in emails, you come across kinda bitchy.” Uhhh…okay. Considering some of the emails I’ve gotten from bosses who are still employed, and from my male colleagues, I’m gonna file that one under “gendered BS”. So, haven’t really had any mentoring. I get tasked with mentoring other women in STEM, but really haven’t had much myself in at least 6 years.

    -Before that, I worked for a startup where goals changed monthly, and we just made it up as we went along. My boss at the time seemed happy enough with it.

    -Before that, I worked for a huge company that re-org’ed every 6 months. I worked there many years, and we had one takeover after another that re-set all the company goals and company metrics every single time. My boss told me, “just make drugs, that’s your job.” Okay, I made drugs, some pretty decent ones too. Once in a while I went to conferences, and my boss would put that in my Professional Development Plan retroactively: went to a conference. Published a paper. Did a presentation.

    I seriously don’t know what to put for professional development. I guess I could present something for a professional society? Again? I don’t know what my goals are, other than learn more about the company and do the things in my job description; I have no idea what projects are coming down the pipeline, they don’t tell us until they are ready to dump us in the middle of it. This company likes to be very secretive about their pipeline, I can’t even say “I want to work on the Skunkworks project” or something.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Here’s the standard at my company for the Professional Development goal to put into the system at goal setting time.

      “Participate in continuing education as agreed on with Manager”

      This allows for the specifics to be made later and leaves it vague enough to allow for a variety of things to fill the requirement. So in your case if you and your manager agreed that you’d participate in a project in a role that is new to you, that could be considered your continuing education/professional development. Taking a class or doing an ‘independent study’ type project that has you learning new skills could also fit.

    2. Southernbelle*

      Is there any skill or certification or programming language or whatever that is usually relevant to your work? Do you want to pursue an administrative-type certification, like MPM? Do you want to manage some certain kind of project, or work on requirements, or overhaul documentation? Do you want to go audit a class at your local university? What I’m asking is, is there some skill or project you find interesting, that’s relevant to your work?

      Other than that… IDK. Sometimes these goals things are pretty darn silly if all you want to do is keep doing your job well.

      Your company sounds a little messed up – 16 bosses!?!

      1. Lora*

        -Already have more than all the languages I would ever need.

        -Don’t really want a cert, though I suppose I could get a PMP. The company would probably pay for an MBA but I don’t particularly want one.

        -I already manage the kinds of projects I want to manage. They’re very clearly defined by the role, which I started as a consultant end of last year and am now full time in. There’s literally no additional responsibilities I would qualify for unless someone died, and even then I’d be like…fifth in line for the throne, sort of thing. And the only way to get further advanced is just by hanging out collecting experience. Degrees don’t really help at this level.
        -It was multiple ExJobs, but there were multiple bosses at each of them. Last job had 3 bosses in one year, the one before that they cycled me through 5 bosses in 2 years, the one before that had six bosses, the one before that had two bosses in one year…most of the bosses were in series, not in parallel. Yeah, very messed up places. Can’t win in situations like that, especially when many of the guys ended up having shorter tenures than me and were fired for cause.

  60. Anon!*

    My co-worker just had 4-5 bagels during a meeting, and often takes all the items off the free table (we sell a lot of office/home supplies and extras or prototypes are up for grabs) before anyone has a chance to have any. It’s annoying and kind of inconsiderate, but I also feel bad because he’s young and married and doesn’t have a lot of money. Do I say something to him?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is him taking them causing other people not to get any? If that was the case, I might say something about making sure everyone gets one before anyone goes for seconds.

    3. Lora*

      I get very annoyed by food waste personally, so if the bagels would otherwise have been trashed, I say let him eat all he wants. If the meeting is over and everyone else has had all the bagels they want, have at em, it’s better than trashing perfectly good food.

    4. Temperance*

      I think it’s incredibly rude and inconsiderate. There’s seriously no reason to eat that many bagels at one meeting. He likely prevented others from having any.

      He’s being greedy and selfish, and I would say something to his manager, personally. Having a wife or husband is no reason to steal all the extra pens.

    5. Swoosh*

      Is he food insecure?

      Is there a way to communicate this in a caring way – letting him know that if he’d like extra bagels he can take them after the meeting rather than during to ensure that everyone gets some.

      1. Anon!*

        Swoosh, that’s what I’m wondering. And it would be fine to take them after the meeting, but it would also be nice to allow others who were outside the meeting to have a bagel if they wanted one (people will often leave leftover meeting treats in a communal area or send out an email about extras)

    7. nep*

      He ate 4 to 5 bagels in one sitting? Wow.
      Was anyone else deprived of bagels or were there enough for everyone?

  61. Fiennes*

    I travel a fair bit for work, with many domestic trips and 1-2 international trips a year. I always go to the airport with a confirmation number and ID, and take it from there. The companies who buy my tickets are not employers; my status is closest to that of an independent contractor.

    Well, I’m supposed to go to Prague in the fall. But the company emailed me yesterday, saying Delta Airlines was insisting that on the day of the flight, I would absolutely have to bring to the airport the credit card used to purchase the ticket. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Obviously a company that *does not employ me* isn’t going to send me one of their credit cards to board a plane. Not has any other airline, or even Delta itself, ever required this.

    Have any other frequent business travelers run into this, especially independent contractors? If so, what is going on? Is this something specific to the Czech Republic? Is there some new rule in effect, designed by regulators who didn’t think it through? Or is the person booking this just doing it wrong?

    (Domestic is always coach travel, for me; international sometimes is business class, but not always—unsure if this is relevant.)

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I feel like I’m missing something. Can’t you just check in online and have your board pass before you get to the airport?

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Me either, I used to travel 50% for work so I thought I’d seen it all.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      There’s a form that can be filled out with the airline (FTR I have heard of this rule and I believe it was Delta) by the credit card holder. Basically they want to be able to verify that someone physically has the card and it’s not fraudulent. The credit card holder should be able to go to their local airport and fill out the form which would satisfy the requirement.

      It’s a fraud prevention thing. Maybe something tripped their fraud detectors with this booking… not sure. The difference could be also that a company card is being used for this instead a travel agent/ghost card thing.

      1. Fiennes*

        I guess that must be it—but how bizarre, that an utterly normal business trip would ping as fraud.

    3. Canarian*

      British Airways specifies that you need to bring the same credit card with you during the booking process. It has an additional form to fill out if the purchaser is different from the traveler, or if the traveler won’t have the card. Ask the person doing the booking if there’s a form like this for Delta (or if you don’t trust them, talk to Delta yourself).

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      This is from the Delta website:

      “To safeguard against credit/debit card fraud, the purchaser may have to show us the credit/debit card along with a valid photo ID. The time varies based on the billing address of the credit/debit card or the country of travel. If the purchaser is not traveling, they can show us their credit/debit card and ID at an airport ticket counter or another ticket office location, whichever is most convenient.”

  62. MedicalLibrarian*

    I feel stupid. After two phone interviews and having my references, including my current supervisor, checked in April, total silence regarding a job I thought I really wanted. I sent a brief e-mail to the two interviewers on Tuesday to indicate my continued interest in the position and to check where they are in the hiring decision process. No response. Why do people ghost someone after going as far as reference checking?

    2. irene adler*

      Lots of things happen.
      Maybe someone decided to go with someone else. Or, the job description was drastically changed. Or, they hired internally after sampling the outside prospects. Or, they’ve decided not to hire anyone and put the whole search process on the back-burner (budget issues).

      Unfortunately, HR depts. are more focused on the new hire than on informing other candidates of the situation. I’m sorry they treated you in this fashion.

  63. Triumphant Fox*

    I am about a week from my due date and questions at work are driving me a little crazy. My HR manager, who is a lovely person, asked me at an all-company meeting if there was any progress. I responded that there was a little, but nothing imminent, and she wanted details. “Nothing? Not even a little dilated?” I was just so taken aback, and I just don’t really know what to say to that – especially in a large group. The questions are just so awkward. I’m not a super private person but I really don’t like discussing medical things at work. Maybe I should be super comfortable exclaiming, “1 cm actually!!! OMG that cervical exam was craaazy” at work, but I’ve only been here a little under six months and I’m just really not at the level of comfort with any of these people to have these conversations.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      That is jaw-droppingly inappropriate!! I honestly have no idea how I’d respond… (currently pregnant and cringing at the thought)

    4. RedCoat*

      I have no cares left- if people push beyond “How are you doing?” “Tired, but ready. :D” Then I get to drown them in information no one wants. All it takes is dropping the word “Mucus plug” once before they turn a little green.

      If you aren’t into oversharing, I’d recommend “I’m not comfortable talking about the status of my genitalia/reproductive organs in public, thanks.”

      Hugs from a fellow preggo though, for real.

    6. Thlayli*

      Ew gross. I know I got piled on a while ago for saying this – but talking about your genitals at work is just plain gross regardless of context.

      I’m so sorry your boss did that to you.

      Good luck with the delivery.

    7. Lindsay J*

      That question (“not even a little dilated” is ridiculous. Like, belongs in an uncomfortable sitcom birth episode ridiculous.

      I’m like flabbergasted. Who asks that?

    9. WellRed*

      My boss worked from home the last couple of weeks. She was too uncomfortable to drive and was terrified of her water breaking at work, but it would have helped avoid inappropriate questions too.
      Also, why do people think pregnancy makes it OK to ask coworkers about the state of their vagina?

  64. Beancounter in Texas*

    Does anyone else enjoy flipping through job ads in their career or dream career? I do.

    When I’m slightly unhappy with my current employment, flipping through other job ads reminds me to be grateful for the perks of the job that aren’t easily found, and also remind me that I don’t have to settle. I also find employers that I probably want to avoid, when I see an ad for a job on and off again over months. Maybe the hiring manager is just poor at the keeping the ad current, but I suspect it’s high turnover in that position (particularly when it’s a sole bookkeeper job).

    Anyone else learn a bit about the market with job ads?

    1. Fishsticks*

      I do that a lot because I’m planning to move across country next year so I’m getting an idea of what skills to work on and just noting down interesting organizations! The only problem is when I find a job I desperately want and have to tell myself I need to be here for a minimum 2 years lol

    2. epi*

      I do. I am in grad school and my new field has some employers in common with my old job, and others that I never would have heard of before. I need to know what those are! I also like to keep track of whether there are technical skills I see mentioned a lot, while I still have free time and a tuition waiver to pick them up.

      Before going back to school I did one job search where I hadn’t been keeping an eye on job ads. It sucked. I think it was weeks before I was really picking the most appropriate listings and had my cover letter fine tuned. It feels so much better to at least have a little idea what is out there.

  65. Master Bean Counter*

    I am ready for a long weekend.

    Back in the fall sportsball guy took partial credit for a report I designed. He said “we” when he did nothing. Other than giving him a look like he’d spontaneously sprouted a second head out of his neck, I let it drop.
    Yesterday we were in a meeting where said report would be very relevant to another project. He’d forgotten all about it it’s existence.
    It’s also been a couple of frustrating weeks trying to get people above me to do work that I need to complete a VERY BIG portion of my job. In another 90 minutes I get to go into a meeting where I get to hear excuses about why their work still isn’t done. And I get to remind them that just because they aren’t doing it, doesn’t mean it does need to still be done. Thankfully the CEO is backing me 100% on this. Even if he isn’t doing his work either…..
    On the good side I saw a posting that could get me back into Government work at a level I would be happy with. I’m a little concerned it’s a department head position with all of the positions in the department posted as open right now.
    Anybody else ready for the long weekend?

  66. Any Idiot, apparently*

    I could really use ideas/tips/scripts on how to get better at talking myself up in job interviews. When I interview for jobs there are so many tasks that I leave out of a job description or position because in my head I think, “Well any idiot can do that. It’s not special”. Which is obviously not good. Even if any idiot can do it (and in many instances I know that’s not the case), the point is that I CAN do it and should say so.
    But knowing that intellectually isn’t making it easier. I still have problems voicing the details and it’s so not helping me. I sound vague about every job I’ve done even with my resume in C.A.R. format because I can’t give myself enough credit. I’ve tried creating short but full descriptions of my job skills/tasks before interviews, but I always wind up going all “umm, well, you know there’s so many things…” and coming across like a moron.

    1. esra*

      As awkward as roleplaying is… I would totally recommend it in this case. When I was starting out in my career, I felt much the same re: _anyone_ could do this*, and it helped a lot to not just jot down descriptions, but to also practice saying them out loud.

      *And now that I’m later in my career, I see how much that’s not true. There are always going to be things that come easily and feel natural to you that don’t to others, and vice versa.

    2. Dear liza dear liza*

      I hate talking myself up, so instead, I frame it as, how would I explain this to my favorite aunt, who is genuinely interested in my work. I have to share details because she’s not in my field, but it doesn’t feel like bragging.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Practice reciting facts.
      It’s also really helpful if you can watch someone do it who is good at it.
      I have a friend who uses an explanatory tone to describe the work he has done that would be relevant to the interviewer.
      “I understand you want an outhouse built. I have built 4 outhouses. Two were stationary, I put them in on the property owner’s campsite. The other two were portable. One owner uses his on a frozen lake during ice fishing season. The other person uses theirs for the outhouse races. Each setting had different needs that I had to focus on.”

      So right here there are three things the interviewer can pick up on. “Oh, I want a stationary one for my new camp.” Or, “My son wants us to race outhouses together.” Or, “I need an outhouse for ice fishing with my elderly father.”

      It sounds kind of like scatter gunning, but the idea is to toss out where you have been and what you have done. My friend has built porches and repaired tractors, but the interviewer wants to talk about outhouses, so he explains what he has done building outhouses. You are only reciting facts, so this is not a matter of bragging or being full of yourself. Don’t strain here. Pick two or three things that are the best examples for the interviewers needs. Yes, that is a guess on your part. But if you have variety in your examples you are giving your interviewer material they can work with.
      Take some questions that you remember being asked already and write out answers at home. Take your time, write out a good, solid answer. Stand in front of the mirror and read your answer until you get used to the sound of your voice explaining what types of things you have done. My friend is good at explaining to people, they don’t feel that they are being pushed or sold to, they just feel like he is telling them what he has done so they can decide if they want him to do their job.

  67. Ms. Mad Scientist*

    No advice needed, just wanted to talk about something:

    Hiring a nanny for my 2 year old for the summer. This is my first time hiring a nanny, and I don’t make hiring decisions at work. We interviewed two people and we liked them both a lot, but thought one had a little more applicable experience than the other. I feel so bad for having to turn down the other one.

    1. Tired Scientist*

      I understand how you feel about turning down the other one, but at the same time, you are lucky! When I was hiring for my nanny, I had a hard time finding someone who didn’t think spanking 1-year-olds was ok. And the good ones kept leaving for greener pastures…

      1. Thursday Next*

        Yikes! I’ve never interviewed any nannies who thought spanking was okay! May I ask how you phrased the question? I’m just surprised that so many people would cop to this with no sense that it’s completely out of line.

        1. Jessi*

          Straight up ask about discipline techniques! I’m a nanny and this helps you gauge if the person you are interviewing has any idea what is developmentally appropriate

      2. only acting normal*

        I’m not a parent and have next to zero child care experience (and don’t agree with spanking any age child)… but WHO THE HELL can look at someone as small and defenceless as a one year old and think spanking them is ok?!! They’re literally babies!

  68. AnonymousCookie*

    I’ve been on tenterhooks all week waiting to see if this job offer will come through. I received an automated email from PeopleSoft notifying me that I’ve been “recommended for hire.” My references have been contacted and they’ve hinted that things seemed promising. I submitted the information needed for a background check (I’m squeaky clean) and now I’m just waiting to see if I’ll get the call. I’m feeling impatient because I feel that I can’t make any long-term plans at work until I know what’s going to happen.

    1. I think this is the job I'm hiring for*

      Any chance you’re my awesome candidate who we interviewed on Wednesday?

  69. esra*

    Would love some advice/perspective on a peer who rides the line of rude.

    Basically he treats me like a subordinate instead of a peer when it comes to requests. But I can’t tell if it’s a personality conflict or legit. For context, we’re a small team and basically everyone manages their own time and workload and reports directly to our VP. I do creative work, so at any given point on top of my own projects, I have projects for other departments, and assist my colleagues. Usually when people need something, they’ll ask what my workload and timelines are like.

    When he needs something? “I think (page on website/pdf/ppt/whatever) needs some attention. See if you can improve it.”

    Am I being sensitive here? Would you say something? Or just do what I’ve been doing, which is usually to reply as though he asked like other people do with my availability + what level of priority I can give the “request”, if any?

    1. ThisIshRightHere*

      That’s a good one. I need some advice on this myself. I invoke the name of our mutual boss a lot. “Oh, interesting thought. Boss hadn’t mentioned that to me. If he does though, I’ll get right on it.”

    2. LostInTheStacks*

      When I’ve tried to comment on something like that, it’s usually resulted in people getting huffy because they’re not being explicitly rude and they resent being critiqued on their personality/use of language. Which is frustrating, because yeah, in some cases it does come off as rude. This also depends a lot on the workplace, so it can be hard to pin down.

      (One time I was on a professional group forum that was mostly young women, who were unfailingly polite and made sure to comment on how they liked someone’s idea even if they personally disagreed, and then there was one man who was very blunt and basically would state his opinion as if it were fact, without either outright chastising us or acknowledging that we also had good ideas. So there was a weird dynamic even if it was hard to find something obviously objectionable.)

      I think what you’re doing is good. You’re sort of making him to take into account your availability, even if he didn’t ask, without giving him something to object to in turn. I wouldn’t necessarily say something direct unless he tried to push back on that.

      1. esra*

        Yea, he and the VP are also the only men on the team. You hit the nail on the head where something is off, but it doesn’t really rise to the level of obviously rude.

        Mostly he just drops it or changes direction or gives more context after I reply how I’ve been doing, so I’ll just keep it up.

    3. Tara S.*

      Ugh. Still, in the vein of being polite, I would ask for reframings. Something along the lines of “Hi Fergus. If you have specific edits you think (X) needs, let me know and I’ll see if I have time to work it into my schedule.” It’s still rude on his part, and maybe worth bringing up to your VP boss.

    4. dr_silverware*

      It might be worth checking with your boss whether he can assign you work like that.

      I think there are a couple different angles you could work, and you have the best read on the situation, so they’re just ideas–think about what might work and, if your first instinct is to say none of these work, what’s the dynamic you’re reading to cause that reaction?

      From your example of the request he gives you:

      – “No please?” (With a smile) “anyway, my workload’s pretty high, but I can put your request on my list.”

      -“Usually I need more details from a project request. Why don’t you email me and I’ll put it in the queue.”

      -“Good thought! That project request is pretty wide-ranging, so it’ll be far down on the queue, though.”

      -(Teasing voice) “See if you can improve it? That’s a hell of a way to ask me to do some work for you!”

      -“You’re very direct when you request projects from me. Normally coworkers asking for an assist will also ask what my workload is like–your approach is ok, but I may have to be very direct with you in return about when I’m not able to fit in your project for a while.”

    5. WS*

      Is the problem that he’s asking you rudely (in which case is it just you/other people like you, or does he behave that way in general)? Or is the problem that he’s telling you to do work and he doesn’t have the authority to do that?

      1. esra*

        It’s kind of the same thing. Like, it’s rude that he’s telling me to do the work. I’m not concerned about the authority part of it, because we’re peers. Basically, if he were being ruder, I know how to assert myself with flagrant jerks. He rides the line of rudeness, especially with female peers.

  70. anon525*

    Some coworkers and I expressed concern about the lack of career path in our department (IT). The director said that was true, but that there were a lot of cross-training opportunities (even though it didn’t sound like any of those would entail much chance to move forward). Does this basically mean that my department is a potential training ground for other employers?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Sometimes it can be.

      Employers don’t always have employee career paths. A lot of jobs are simply to provide X widget or perform Y service, ad infinitum. It’s steady but unchanging work. I’ve also noticed that support roles: admin, IT, facilities, often lack upward tracks that are offered to technical and professional roles.

      Changing jobs might be the only way to “move up.”

      Do a good job and learn what you can, then move on for the right opportunity.

  71. KR*

    Some personal, some professional. I’ve been having the hardest time focusing on work lately and it’s cutting into my performance pretty badly. My manager still says I’m doing good work but I know I could do it better and do more of it. My mental health has never been 100%, or even close to 80%, and executive dysfunction (sp?) is kicking my ass now more than ever. So I made a therapist appointment for the week after next and she called yesterday with an opening to move my appointment up. I’m hoping I can improve my mental health and perhaps get some coping skills or medicine to combat the fact that I just. can’t. concentrate.

    1. Tara S.*

      Best of luck! I definitely have stretches of time where I could be more productive, but as long as I can show myself the progress I’ve made on some tasks, I try to be forgiving to myself. I’m a person, not a machine.

    2. GoingAnon*

      Is there any reason why you might be having trouble concentrating?

      Do you find you have a short attention span in general?

      It is possible there could be something like ADD/ADHD (or another disorder) going on, but of course that’s something you’d have to discuss with a doctor/psychiatrist. I have bipolar disorder, and have trouble focusing when I’m on the hypomanic side of the spectrum. I can usually correct it with small medication dose changes over a 4-5-day period, though on rare occasions it lasts weeks, which can be pretty rough (my doctor is great, and I haven’t had a serious episode in 5 years).

  72. MassholeMarketer*

    Hi all!

    I have to create a marketing & communications plan for an interview in about a week. The presentation should take about 40 minutes. I practiced my first round last night and got to 35 minutes. Anything else you’d add to add some time?

    So far I have:
    About Me
    Executive Summary
    Target Markets
    Services Provided
    Integrated Communications Plan (including messaging)
    Market Calendar
    Budget
    Evaluation/Controls

    2. PR for Now*

      I would include a SWOT analysis! That will take up some presentation time and you’ll come off looking business-savvy.

      1. MassholeMarketer*

        I totally forgot to add the SWOT analysis to that list haha but I did do one! That and the communications plan were the points I talked about the most.

    3. Tara S.*

      I hope this a pretty senior position, this is an insane amount of work to do for an interview. (Best of luck though!)

      1. MassholeMarketer*

        Weirdly enough, not too too senior… but it is a senior role. From the interviews I’ve had so far (three Skype), you can tell they’re really looking for someone that fits their culture. I was just hoping when they said interview that it would be, like, 20 minutes, not 40…

      1. AnonJ*

        I was thinking the same thing. I’d maybe even try to keep my presentation to 30 minutes to allow for interjections and questions so it could actually wrap up in 40.

  73. Jazzyisanonymous*

    So, this is going to sound insane. My job involves driving around inspecting teapots at teapot repair facilities in a dangerous city. So far, I’ve been miserable.

    Two days ago I went to a teapot inspection and was lead to a creepy warehouse full of water damage. Some wood boards were damaged and I fell through the floor about a foot. And my ankle was bruised, but the whole ordeal was horrific.

    All of my applications aren’t getting me anywhere. Do you think a situation like this might allow me to get unemployment if I quit?

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      They are dreadfully understaffed; however, OSHA might be worth making a report to.

      I don’t know how this would affect unemployment; but, you shouldn’t have to work in a place where you are at risk of going through the floor without fall protection PPE.

  74. Wish Me Luck*

    I don’t really have a question at the moment, but I do have a job interview today – and I’m quite nervous!

    So if you have a spare moment, I’d absolutely love some well-wishes/good luck/positive vibes/any sort of good karma you’d be willing to give! Thanks guys. This community is amazing. Wish me luck!

    4. ThisIshRightHere*

      Best wishes to you! I hope you’ll come back and update when you get the job!

    5. Cruciatus*

      Remember that you have power here too–you are just as interested in checking them out as an employer as they are you as an employee. I’m sure it’ll go great! Best of luck!

      1. Wish Me Luck - OP*

        Well everyone, it seems your well wishes and good karma worked because I’m fairly certain I GOT THE JOB!

        I only say [fairly certain] because while they did say the next step is chatting amongst themselves and then “drafting an offer” (direct quote, among many other positive comments), I do not have one on paper quite yet. Understandable, given the holiday weekend. So while every interview I’ve had in my entire career with this type of dialogue has always ended in an offer, I do understand nothing is solid until the ink on the paper is dry.

        Still, I wanted to update you guys and say THANK YOU! Your support meant a lot to me. I’ll be sure to bring update part 2 when all is [hopefully] official. :)

        1. GOOD NEWS!*

          Update 2 – all is official :) Boss took resignation very well, and I’ll start the new gig when we decide if I’ll stay the full two weeks, or just finish out the week. Thank you all again!

    8. Wish Me Luck - OP*

      OP here! I think I may have posted my update in the wrong spot – but it’s under the last reply in this comment thread. Below ‘SpaceNovice’. Sorry if you get it twice! Got a little click-happy.

  75. T3k*

    Just a small update. Had an interview earlier this week and should hear back hopefully next week. Really hoping I get this one as it sounds cool, even if just temporary.

    Also, annoying to get rejected simply for relocation reasons. Another position I had applied for rejected for that reason (no interview) even though I’d have gladly paid to move there myself and would only have needed time to find an apartment there. *sigh*

    1. ThisIshRightHere*

      Do you absolutely have to say where you live? I knew of a woman who lived on the West Coast, but was interviewing on the East Coast and she always slipped in that she was planning to relocate anyway and was looking for employment in the area where she’ll be living and threw out a date she was planning to move. I thought that was a good way to let employers know that her location wasn’t a barrier and that she was already planning to relocate at her own expense.

      1. T3k*

        Well, yes and no. This form had 3 options to choose from when applying and was something like: local, need to relocate, or need to relocate with help from company. Plus my resume’s header includes my address so yeah :/ Even though I did write in my cover letter I was perfectly ok moving to the area (and had visited before) apparently that wasn’t enough.

  76. Oceana*

    Not really looking for advice – just venting.

    My co-worker repeatedly screws up without consequences. The result of his actions is that I’m responsible for either fixing his mess or completing it, along with my own set of responsibilities. He’s been reprimanded in the past but our shared supervisor always sits down with him and holds his hand while he completes the job. Co-worker injured himself last weekend and is out for surgery today and will not be back until who knows when. His last day was Thursday and before he left he did not complete a list of tasks that I need on my radar. His work started flowing in today and there is no record on what needs to be done or what has already been completed. I want to scream. I’m starting to feel physical effects of this job (racing heart, stomach ache, etc.) every morning and I think I need to get out.

    1. Fabulous*

      Have you sat down with your boss to let them know your predicament? They can possibly help to figure out what needs done.

  77. sleepy baby*

    Potential trigger warning for discussion of sexual harassment —

    This isn’t a personal question but something I’ve just wondering about lately. I had a little bit of a lazy evening and got stuck in a buzzfeed video binge (don’t judge). There’s so many videos where coworkers go up to each other and ask things like “oh can you see I’m not wearing a bra” or “look at you, you look so sexy!”
    I just kinda wonder where the line is for workplace harassment here? Obviously I’d be uncomfortable if a coworker asked me if I could see their nipples through the shirt, but I also understand the entertainment industry has vastly different norms. Anyone have thoughts?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I can only speak to my own feelings. If a female coworker pulls me aside and asks me if I can see her nipples, I consider that completely non-sexual and fine, like asking if a skirt is too short for workplace norms. If a dude does it I would be so uncomfortable. A coworker kept trying to get me to smell his shirt because he was worried he smelled bad and I recoiled so hard I almost pulled a muscle. Someone else did it instead (and my female supervisor and male boss had a loud discussion about his nipples once) and I am the weird one so that’s my industry for you.

      The word “sexy” has no place around me. Whether I would go as far to call it harassment depends on the tone/body language of the speaker. I don’t think there’s such thing as a universally bad word.

    2. Lora*

      The phrasing is what seems odd to me. If I was really asking a colleague something like this, I would ask a female colleague, in the bathroom, and I would phrase it more like “do I need to put on a jacket with this blouse?” or “whoa, going somewhere special after work?” or “that’s a cute outfit, where did you get it?”

      Maybe Jeffrey Tambor watched the same videos?

    3. Lawyer Anon*

      Context is really important here. If it’s on a Buzzfeed video, it is likely a planned interaction with two people that have a comfortable relationship with each other.

  78. Can I Even Succeed LW*

    Hello,
    This is the “maybe I can’t succeed in the world of work” LW. My job is still a struggle, although I’ve realized it’s mostly that I am horrible at admin related tasks – filing, keeping things organized, being detail oriented. That’s partly why I thought I just couldn’t do work in general – what job doesn’t need organization and detail orientation? I did get a “nice job” on some research work I did, but then absolutely eviscerated on some basic writing work so….very much still struggling.
    I have a pressing question though, outside of my “can I even do work” question – How do I handle mixed-messages from my bosses? I was told to be more pushy and assertive to get things done and to stop saying “I know you’re busy, but just wondered if…” sort of thing.
    There is one horrible, looming task I am very behind on, 1. because it is everything I am bad at so I am very slow and triple checking my work. and 2. because I cannot complete the task without responses from my bosses. I have been trying to be pushy – I send multiple emails that aren’t answered, and send follow up emails taking out all those “just wonderings” and pop into offices to ask questions. And I often don’t get replies or I get angry replies about how they are busy. And then I DO get asked “why isn’t that task done?” I have explained where I am with the task, and that I need answers, and yet somehow the connection is not being made. Instead when I followed up for some information I received a lengthy explanation about how my To Do List isn’t their to do list and they needed to do client work first. Since they seemed angry when giving that lecture I simply nodded and planned to bring up the context later when things were calm. But I am very confused. I know I have been remiss and slow at this job, but I have also been getting mixed signals and confusion. Any advice?

    1. stej*

      So I’ve worked for these kinds of bosses, too, and it is seriously a messed-up experience. Is there anyone who you could compare notes with, to see if there’s something you’re missing or if these bosses are just cray?

      This isn’t as much of a case of mixed messages, as it is of gaslighting, from what you’ve described. If you can, try to respond to their lectures by verbalizing next steps.

      Boss: [angrily telling you client work comes first]
      You: I see. How should I handle this in the future so that this work can be reviewed? I was under the impression that you and Other Boss need to approve this work; am I mistaken?

      If they can give you some concrete steps or alternatives, great! If they just get worse, maybe you’re not the root problem here.

      Wishing you lots of luck, LW!

    2. Nita*

      That sounds very frustrating. For what it’s worth, some people don’t communicate well by email. Try calling, or dropping by in person more often, and see if you get better/faster responses. Also there are people who don’t communicate well at all. If you’re dealing with those, maybe the best thing you can do is go to your boss and ask if you can make some assumptions in place of the missing data. That’s assuming you have a semi-reasonable boss. If your boss is also an ogre, this may just be too much of a mess and you might want to start sending out resumes. Not because you’re messing up, but because it doesn’t sound like a great place to work.

    3. Tara S.*

      Sounds like you’re getting mixed messages, and that you might have a better work experience with a much better boss.

      As for handling this one, you could try documenting your progress on this task. If you write down every time you email/ask your boss for an update, it not only helps you feel out when its a good time to ping them again, but can help you feel confident when you do get asked why it’s not done yet. You don’t have to pull the record out like a receipt, but it could help you feel more confident about responding with a “oh, I’ll be able to move forward with that project as soon as I get the confirmation on whether we want to do X or Y.” YOU know that you’ve asked 3 times for the confirmation, because it’s in your notes.

    4. RVA Cat*

      I think you need to get out of there. It’s a bad fit, but even if you’re bad at your job, being yelled routinely is not okay. The culture there sucks and it’s not something you can change. It’s possible that your unofficial position is Office Punching Bag – particularly true if they seem to churn through people in this role.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I think I agree with RVA Cat. I’ve worked for this type of boss before, and it’s a very difficult situation. By the time I left, I truly wondered if I would ever be able to hold a job again. I was so beat down and demoralized and confused. Of course, I was wrong; as soon as I connected with my current boss and current job, I was able to see that I wasn’t the problem.

        So use some of the coping strategies that others have mentioned, but also look for a new job because this situation does not sound good.

    5. Jules the Third*

      This is the advanced art of Managing Upwards.

      The best way I have found to address this is to make it as easy as possible for my manager. Ways to do that:
      1) Propose answers to their questions
      – question is ‘when is X due’, your email to mgr is ‘I’ll put in due date Y for item X unless you recommend a different date.”
      – question is ‘can we buy X’ your email is ‘X costs Y, and we need it for Z, can I place the order?’

      Your goal here is to either have a tentative answer that you can use for further planning, or to get them down to ‘yes or no’ responses. Use prior responses to give you guidance on tentative answers.

      2) Figure out if they’re a ‘walk through the list all at once’ or a ‘answer one issue at a time’ person. Keep a list of the issues for you, and track their answers, it will give you guidance for tentative answers.

      3) If they’re a ‘walk through a list’ kinda person, see if they can schedule 2x/week meetings where you bring up the current issues waiting for their answer and handle them all at once.

      I love lists, they help me stay organized. Many lists can be turned into emails / polished writing by removing the list signifier and converting each item to a sentence.

      Good luck.

    6. Pat Benetardis*

      When I can’t get a response on something, I will put myself on their calendar to discuss “thing needing response.” This often prompts the response and I cancel the meeting. If response doesn’t come, we use the meeting time to discuss the question.

    7. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      First – I don’t know if I ever commented on your original letter, but I remember it. But seriously – it just sounds like you’re not great at administrative support work, which is PERFECTLY FINE. If AAM has taught me anything, it’s that it’s hard out here for an admin.

      But anyway. On your current question – that sounds like the sign of an overwhelmed boss that might not have the bandwidth to deal with every request you have. Some of my reports are like that – they’ll ask me about things constantly, and apologize for interrupting me. I’ve also been that person myself with higher ups (to the point where I had a VP snap at me because I was such a pest about something).

      In this case, you kind of have to “manage up,” in a sense. (Just because someone is higher than you in the org chart doesn’t mean they’re perfect. Case in point: me.) How does the person respond best? I like scheduling meetings for later if necessary. I REALLY like to resolve things through email or IM if possible, but I’ll pick up the phone if I have to. One of the VPs I report to rarely answers his email, and is often out of the office (unannounced). So a lot of the time, I’ll either call him, or call my primary manager to see if he’s in, since they share an office.

      In your case, maybe ask if there’s a way you can avoid having to ask them for things as often. Or see if your questions have already been answered in another way!

      Finally, and most importantly…it’s not just you, or even mostly you. Ultimately, it’s your bosses’ responsibility to make sure they have their acts together. Obviously, they can’t drop everything for you all the time. But if they’re not providing you with information you need, that’s on them too.

  79. Fabulous*

    Found out earlier this week that due to some restructuring of our division, one of my co-workers positions has been eliminated and she’s leaving at the end of June. She works virtually, but we’ve been pretty close the last 8 months and talk almost every day… I offered to re-work her resume (she’s been here for 10+ years and hasn’t interviewed much in the meantime) so I was able to do that this week for her. Even left her with a link to AAM’s Resume and Cover Letter sections, as well as let her know about the interviewing guide. I’m gonna miss her something terrible!

  80. ThisIshRightHere*

    Almost every day this week there has coincidentally been a work-sponsored event that was distinctly against my religion. I happily and quietly sit these things out. When someone reminds me “don’t forget to stop by the blood drive” or “there’s birthday cake in the break room” or “you need to sign up for a shift at the voter registration table,” I politely decline. However, each and every time, the person pries for details about why I’m not participating. As soon as I start saying, “oh well for religious reasons, I can’t xyz” people get all visibly irritated. Once someone even scolded me and said I really shouldn’t be talking about religion at work. Ugh. You asked! To be honest, I prefer not to get into all that anyway. Short of sending out a memo with a list of things that my religious beliefs preclude, how can I convince people to trust that I have my reasons when I’m choosing not to participate in these optional things (that have nothing to do with my actual work, btw). I know it’s something I should find a solution for because at my last job, my boss pulled me into a counseling session where she told me that the staff views me as unfriendly and cold. Being the smiley, bubbly person that I am, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing and asked for details. All the examples she shared were of events that I’d declined to attend for religious reasons and how offended everyone felt about it. When I revealed that I had religious reasons for not attending, she began to backtrack, but I now know that she every intention of giving me a low score for “interpersonal skills” on my employee evaluation because of this.

    1. KatieKate*

      That’s really frustrating. To be fair, I didn’t know about the voting thing and had to google (I’m assuming JW?). Are there other things you can participate in that you’d be able to take a leadership role in? So it’s less “ThisIshRightHere” doesn’t participate in things” and more “ThisIshRightHere put together the best bake off we ever had!” (Substitute bake-off for another activity)

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Yes, I’m a Jehovah’s Witness. (Good on you for googling!) I don’t expect anyone else to know or care about my religion and its rules and take no offense when people invite/encourage me to participate in these kinds of activities. But when I smile and give a polite “I appreciate you thinking of me, but no thanks,” I need that to be the end of the discussion and I need for people not to attach any other meanings to it. I tend to avoid a lot of extraneous socializing with my coworkers, in small part because of my religion and in large part because of my introverted nature. But yes, I could slap together a bake-off (or what have you, lol) if I thought it would help. Thanks for the idea!

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Do you mind a set of questions for my education? Is there a difference, in terms of your religious practice, between “there’s cake for your birthday” and “there’s cake for Jane’s birthday”? I’m assuming that there IS a difference between “there’s birthday cake in the break room” and “there’s cake in the break room”; if someone tells you “there’s cake in the break room” and you go and discover that it’s birthday cake, would that mean you had to leave, even if songs had already been sung and candles blown out?
      I’m sorry people get irritated by your religious practice. I get that a bit (one of my employees had a pretty snotty tone of voice the time he said “well *I* come in on Saturdays”), especially since my religious practice actually does have an impact on other people occasionally, but yours doesn’t so people need to stop being obnoxious about it.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        I don’t mind at all. We do not observe any kind of birthday celebration, so whose birthday the cake is for doesn’t matter. Your hypothetical example has happened more than once. If the cake was used to celebrate someone’s birthday (even if it is no longer the person’s birthday), I’d decline to eat it.

        1. Teapot librarian*

          Thanks for answering! I 100% respect your religious practice, but man oh man all the cake that you’re missing out on!! (I keep kosher, so there’s lots of yumminess that I miss out on. But CAKE!) :-)

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      Your coworkers sound ridiculous to 1) press you for details on why you’re not doing x and 2) to be offended that when they pressed for details when they should not have they got an answer.

      If someone were to offer me the pasta dish left out for everyone, and then pressed me for more details after I say, oh, sorry, no thanks, I’m good, they don’t get to be offended when I tell them that pasta upsets my IBS.

      3. can't remember what alias i used last time*

        Obviously religious reasons is a legitimate reason for not giving blood but why would anyone ask anyone who declines to give blood why. There could be a whole host of medical reasons someone doesn’t want to get into at work why they couldn’t give blood which are none of a co-workers business and there are some odd rules about blood donation anyway (I believe in the US and Canada people who lived in the UK during the Mad cow disease outbreak cannot give blood for example).

        I can understand people being more confused about birthday cake or voter registrations (I didn’t know either of these were Jehovah’s witness things until I googled it) but surely if you ask someone and they tell you you can’t get annoyed with someone for talking about religion at work. If you were constantly complaining about other people giving blood/celebrating birthdays/voting due to your religion that would be a reason for them to complain but if you are just declining to participate you absolutely have a right to do that.

    4. Temperance*

      I work with a few JWs, and maybe because we were founded by a religious group that was seriously persecuted, but it’s never been a big deal here to have religious beliefs that differ from the norm.

      I’m wondering if this is a perception issue. Are you otherwise friendly and do you have a good relationship with your colleagues, or are you the quieter “do-my-work-and-leave” type? It’s fine either way, but I can imagine that your coworkers might not have realized that inviting you to join in on these activities would be a religious issue for you. For instance, I felt like I knew a fair amount about the JW faith, and had no idea that you weren’t allowed to vote or encourage voting.

      I think if you are open about your faith without pushing it, people might realize what is allowed and what is not allowed, and they’ll relax a bit. I have a good enough relationship with my colleagues that I will ask them if they can participate in something, and they know I’m not asking because I don’t believe in their religion, but because I want to make sure they are included if they would like to be. (The best example I can think of is Martin Luther King Jr. Day volunteer activities, as these folks were regular, dedicated volunteers on one of my projects. I wasn’t sure if that was considered a “holiday” for religious purposes.)

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Thank you for chiming in. Yes, it’s absolutely a perception thing. I’m not a “do my work and leave” kind of person. I make small talk, I go out to lunch, I chip in for the baby showers and so on. However, it is true that I rarely am willing to give up an evening or a weekend to socialize with work people. That, no one seems to mind. But if I say, “oh sorry, I have religious obligations on weekends, so while I’d love to, I’m afraid I can’t join your bookclub,” cue the eyerolls. And that’s not even a religious tenet, I’m just literally busy on Saturdays and Sundays. I get the feeling that it’s *what* I’m busy with that bothers people.

        I don’t mind being open about my faith (we JWs kinda specialize in telling others what we believe, lol) and would do it more if people didn’t immediately recoil when I say the word Bible.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          It kinda sounds like the typical coworker is just a little too demanding of social things over there.

          What you describe on your end of the behaviour seems completely reasonable to me.

        2. smoke tree*

          Sounds to me like your coworkers might be having a defensive reaction–some people really don’t like hearing about religious or other restrictions, since I guess it makes them feel judged, or feel bad about their own life choices? This seems to be particularly true whenever food or alcohol are involved. They’re obviously being ridiculous since they’re the ones who are demanding this information. I’d personally be annoyed about pandering to this behaviour, but if you feel you need to for professional reasons, you might want to make a point of being extra-enthusiastic about any workplace stuff that you can participate in.

    5. Tara S.*

      I’m sorry your answers aren’t being treated at face value. As someone who often opts out of social office things for personal preference reasons (not religious), I sometimes also just rely on the fact that people don’t follow up. If someone says “Be sure to stop by the blood drive” or “there’s cake in the break room!”, you could just smile and give a thumbs up, then not go do that thing. Sometimes acknowledging people but not saying anything about whether or not you are actually going to do anything can get people to go away. *Should* you have to do this? No, but for practical purposes it might help.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Yes, that’s a tactic of mine as well. What drove me to post today is that someone poked her head in my office three separate times to ask “you know there’s cake! are you gonna come for cake? when should we expect you for cake.” I regretted having made it seem in the beginning that I was going to stop by.

    6. Jules the Third*

      So, what about asking your manager to do something that is supported by your religion, and making a real point to go to them? Like a 1x/mo or 1x/quarter pot-luck that’s only for ‘being social’ or ‘we made it through the busy part of the quarter’ with no bday or holiday celebrations involved.

      My company was doing ‘tgiving / christmas / valentine’s day’ celebrations, and if they’d had ‘easter’, I was planning to have words for sure. But they also have monthly ‘bring food and eat together’ things that are not tied to anything other than ‘opportunity to take a social break’.

      Sigh – the people asking you for more or pushing for more should not be doing that.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Thank you for that. I’ve asked that question, not of my manager but of the department that plans these events (yes, a full department with a staff, a budget and everything; this is not a sunshine committee) and was told that they can only do a certain amount per year and having a just-for-the-heck-of-it potluck necessarily means that they’ll have to cut out the Valentine’s one or what have you. I was also told that having a relatable “theme” makes events more marketable. I volunteered to plan a Black History Month function last year and secured funding for it myself. It was very well attended and people enjoyed it, but again, there are people that get paid to do this kind of thing so I don’t think I’ll be doing too many more of those.

    7. ThisIshRightHere*

      Also, I think it’s safe to assume that the particular religion makes a difference here. I realize that some people dislike JWs as a whole and/or what [they believe] the organization stands for. I can Though people get irritated when I mention my religion, other people in my office have their religious concerns met with intrigue and respect. “Oh so-and-so can’t be at an event where alcohol is served? How about we set up the bar behind a shed in the yard so it’s not technically *at* the event? Would that work?” or “make sure you use a separate spoon for the bacon bits because so-and-so can’t eat anything that has touched pork” but “Oh Thisishrighthere doesn’t celebrate Halloween? What’s the big deal, costumes are fun!”

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Hmm – are most of the people who are ‘oh, you should tots have cake anyway’ also Christian? if so, my guess is it’s the annoying ‘we’re all the same ‘faith’ so everyone with different rules than mine is weird’ attitude I see a lot. I’ve seen people roll their eyes at Catholics who give up something for lent as well. I always attribute it a bit to the uncanny valley effect – someone who’s a different faith is sufficiently different that their habits are interesting. But if someone is close but not close enough, suddenly everything not-similar becomes off-putting. (not defending, btw, it’s unfair for folks to not be respecting your faith)
        I hadn’t realized JWs couldn’t have celebration leftovers due to the celebration restrictions – I wonder if there’s a way to find out if there’s anyone in our office missing out on cake due to that. (we have a monthly ‘collective birthday’ celebration and share out leftovers with the office, but we also have a ‘goodies’ table that gets used the rest of the time for whatever, and I’d be totally willing to make an occasional ‘just because’ cake)

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I worked with a person who abided by their church’s rules.

      What happened worked really well. One or more people had a good description of what this person could and could not do. Those people quietly passed the word on to other people. Interestingly, no one really seemed to know what church the man went to and no one cared. The info would be passed along when there was a necessity. “Oh, Bob, can’t do X, because of his faith, so we will ask Sue.”

      I think this worked well because people knew what to expect in advance, there were no surprises. And I think it worked well because Bob was not the only one delivering the message. Additionally, Bob helped by offering what he COULD do. For example, sometimes he could take the X part of XYZ problem and pull it off of all of us so we just had YZ to deal with, where he could not do the YZ part.

      I thought it went well, I never heard any upset over it. And I worked with a group of people who complained about EVERYTHING.

    10. It’s all good*

      I get it. I grew up in a JW house. I did not get baptized but I respected my family’s beliefs until I moved when I was 18. So I can’t related to work but I have a bucket load of similar experiences growing up, starting in 1st grade from teachers! Horrible to be harrassed at such a long age. By the time I got to HS I was able to let it roll off my back. For some reason I remember in 10th grade drama class the teacher was so upset I couldn’t participate in the Xmas present exchange she kept my name in the drawing and she brought in homemade coookies and addressed it as my gift. Ugh.

    11. Jessi*

      Maybe rather than declining could you just say something like “Oh, thanks, it was so sweet of you to remind me!/ thanks for thinking of me/ cheers for including me/ so lovely of you to take time to remember me” and then still not go? that way your not refusing (even though you have zero intention of going) and the person who is reminding/ bothering you feels all warm and fuzzy.

      I think same with the weekend plans/ bookclub. Gush about how thrilled you are to be invited but alas your social life is so busy/ husband works long hours etc. Really hard to be pissy with someone over that

  81. Pancakes*

    A question for those working in marketing:

    I’ve worked in marketing for several years since I graduated from college with a degree in communication and history. I’ve been working at small nonprofits where I’ve worn many hats, including in graphic design. I also spent a year in the midst of my work history freelancing in illustration and graphic design. I work on quite a few design projects in my current role, but also on other projects as well (email marketing, writing copy, press, etc.).

    I’m hoping to move on to bigger organizations and maybe out of the nonprofit field someday and I wonder if design work really helps my resume. It definitely helps at small orgs where we all wear many hats, but I’m wondering if I’m larger companies it won’t matter, because they will have their own design departments with people who actually went to school for design? On the other hand, some of these projects are pretty large and involve project management and other transferable skills and being able to think visually can be helpful even if I’m not the one doing the designing. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

    1. Tara S.*

      Even if you’re not doing design work in a different role, it’s nice because it shows you can speak the same language as designers and will be able to work with them easily.

      1. JS#2*

        What Tara said.

        From my experience working with graphic designers (from a creative director perspective), speaking the same language is absolutely invaluable. I had to learn to be careful though, because knowing TOO much can cause you to give unnecessarily detailed feedback. (e.g. It’s better to say, “The text feels constricted, can we open it up a bit?” rather than “Increase the kerning between the V and the A by 300%”–the first feedback observes a problem and invites the designer to solve the problem in their own way. The second is telling the designer exactly how to do their job.

        But yeah, it’s a huge bonus I think, as long as you remember to be aware when you’re trying to make someone solve the visual problem like you would solve it (instead of letting them solve it in their own way, which may be equally valid).

  82. Amber Rose*

    Our phone systems are decrepit VOIP technology and nobody has voicemail. Currently I page people to pick up line whatever, and if they don’t pick up I either take a quick run around to look or take a message then run around to give it to them.

    It’s fine because the building is a small circle. The new building is a maze and more than twice the size. I won’t have the time or energy to hunt people down and make them take calls/sticky notes. But also, I know that most people either don’t check their email or automatically delete the ones from me. My boss has straight up said he does this.

    Is there a way I can put my foot down and basically say “I’ll be emailing you your messages and if you delete them and they were important that’s your problem not mine. I am too busy with my actual job to play messenger.”

    1. Tara S.*

      That’s a super reasonable policy! If you get push back, say that the old system of you running people down was unsustainable, but a better voicemail system could also help address the issue.

      (I mean, obviously just let people know what the new policy will be and leave it there, no need to explain the change unless people give you crap.)

    2. CDM*

      Unfortunately, I don’t know if there’s a professional way to do that.

      I’d go with: “Boss, the size and layout of the new building means I can’t possibly run around chasing people for calls and messages the way I do now. I have three solutions, please let me know which one you want to implement. I can email all messages immediately to the recipient. I can hold all paper messages at the desk, and everyone is responsible for checking there regularly for their messages. I can take paper messages and deliver them to the recipient’s desk twice a day, say 11 am and 3. I think the email option is best for recipients to get all messages in a timely manner, what do you think?”

  83. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

    I’m mid-career and looking to leave my current position (below my skill set and experience, not an industry I am interested in long-term, took in a moment of poor health and unemployment) and return in a more senior role in an industry I was in two jobs ago. Has anyone done something similar and, if so, how did you arrange your resume? For the jobs I am targeting I have the experience, but I don’t want people to focus on my current employment (which has a lot of transferable skills anyway) and make assumptions (this would be a move from government back to private company).

    Any thoughts?

  84. Liz Lemon*

    What do people do to make their office spaces feel nice and homey and productive?

    Next week I start a new job! Yay! I have worked from home for the past five years, and I’ll be going into an office four days a week. This is the first time I’ll have my own office, with a door that closes (last time I was in an office, it was a cubicle), so I’m just trying to figure out how to make the space my own. I have a nice mug I’ll be bringing in, and a cute framed picture of my son. Any other ideas? I don’t want it to feel cluttered, of course, but I do want it to feel comfortable.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Plants. I mean, I kill mine, but I have two. They make the space friendly. I have a photo of my dog and a calendar with doggies, plus a few colorful coasters.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I have an office with a door that closes (and also connects with no door to a bitty filing room with its own door to the rest of the office that I never close, which has led to a coworker idly wandering into there to look out the window and then jumping out of his skin when he turns around and remembers I’m right there).

      Anywho, I have a couple plants and I hung up a print that my MIL painted. I have another one that I’m debating hanging up, but a couple coworkers have already commented in surprise that I have a small painting and plants. My boss doesn’t seem to care. I also have a small picture of Husband on my desk.

    4. Fishsticks*

      I collect those American figurines from the Red Rose tea and have them lining my desk. It’s exciting when I open a new box of tea and see what I’m adding next! I also have a few small items (like a beaded lizard) chilling around my desk to make it feel more mine!

    5. Tara S.*

      Something for the walls to make it seem like you’ve personalized the space a bit. Even if it’s just a nice calendar you like.

    6. Jules the Third*

      I’m so weird – I have my son’s pic as my screensaver, a pencil holder, a sheet with key phone #s (in case the computer dies, I can still at least call people), and nothing else on my desk.

      I guess I’d consider a good blotter / calendar, but I have developed an aversion to all the personalization stuff. Just ends up collecting dust.

    7. only acting normal*

      Before we moved to completely-clear-desk hotdesking (*sob*), on my desk I used to have a framed picture of my dog, a plant, a box of tissues (in one of the prettier cube design boxes), a row of useful reference books, a desk calendar, and a couple of silly bits like a stress toy or something.

  85. LostInTheStacks*

    I recently finished my graduate degree, and after a week of vacation I’m sitting down to do some serious job hunting. (I sent out a few applications during my final semester, but my portfolio and final projects made it difficult to find the time.) Anyone have advice on how to really get down to business?

    Some things I’m trying to juggle:
    – applying exclusively to jobs that are in different states (3-6 hour drive away), which are more expensive than my current location, so moving first and finding a job later is… feasible but not in the long term
    – having a jack-of-all-trades internship background (too many positions to fit on a one-page resume) and being unsure of how many I should talk about/how detailed I should be in my cover letter
    – setting a reasonable schedule when I’m currently unemployed and have no outside scheduling demands for the first time since I was, like, thirteen, when I got my first volunteer camp counselor “job”
    – for that matter, applying to part-time summer jobs doing yard work or walking dogs when people ask for a resume and my experience is just personal chores and favors for friends. should I include my professional resume just to show that I’m reliable and have work experience? is it worth it to create a resume for on-and-off dogsitting for friends and family?

    1. stej*

      Jack-of-all-trades internship experience — Focus in. You are applying for jobs which some internships will be more relevant for than others, so you’ll need to tailor your cover letters and resumes appropriately. What is your story? Why did internship A lead you to B and then C? Did you like one disproportionately more than the others? Or just aspects from each? One way I do this, is I get a sense of the types of roles I’m applying for (e.g. client-facing work versus technical backend work) and do a resume that gets me 75% of the way there. For more specific applications, I’ll do that last bit of tweaking.

      Reasonable schedule — My opinion is treat your job search like your full-time job. 9-5 you are applying or networking or working on a development project or course.

      Part-time jobs — no to real resume. A small thing with your odd jobs experience should be fine. Education and internship stuff is overkill.

    2. Pancakes*

      For keeping to a schedule: get out of the house! When I was unemployed and applying for jobs I found it so much easier to actually get things done if I went to a coffee shop or my local library. I’d pick a time that you plan to arrive at the location you plan to work in and a time to leave and spend that time doing applications. I don’t think you need to (or necessarily should) do this from 9-5 , because there are only so many jobs that will be a fit for you to apply to, but do this for a few hours each day. Good luck!

  86. Dr. Johnny Fever*

    After 8 months of searching, I got a job. And not only did I get a job, but I got the job I wanted!

    I followed Alison’s advice from the archives on resume and interviewing, and educated myself on recruiting relationships. I focused my search on the jobs I was truly interested in (one of the reasons it took so long) and didn’t panic when the search stretched out longer than planned. One day, a headhunter found me for a position on my career path making me a top candidate. One phone screen and a final interview later, I was at offer stage, negotiated a bit, and landed it.

    I have a great salary, a virtual office, intermittent travel, and I couldn’t be happier at this point.

    Two notes:
    My final interview was to give a presentation on a topic that was given to me a week before. It was 15 minutes and displayed practical skills for the position. That was one of the most nerve-wracking interviews I’ve had.

    Linked In was integral to my search. I got little traction on direct applications. I updated my profile and set it to alert recruiters that I was looking about four months in. Based on the response, it might have been helpful to turn the alert on sooner, but I can’t second guess how I did things. Meeting with recruiters and attending a couple meetups was critical to getting my name and accomplishments out there.

  87. Jules the Third*

    Been waiting for this – local story, link in my name. Question is how should the manager react?
    1) Fire
    2) PIP
    3) Admonish, sensitivity training, monitor
    4) Let it go, no big deal

    Summary:
    Bank services person (white male) has Walking Dead figurine on his desk. Not just any one, but one of Michonne’s ‘pet zombies’, who are chained and tied. The black zombie. Pic in link. Black customer sees it, asks what it is, and says she’s offended. He defends (based on Michonne’s ’empowerment’), customer goes to manager and facebook. He goes to facebook as well, including sending customer name to a friend in private message.

    At what point in the story did you make your final decision?

    1. Jules the Third*

      I’ll start: 1 .
      I was waffling between Fire and PIP until I got to his facebooking.

      Thankfully, he’s got no say in what rates people get if their loan is approved through his bank (ok, technically Credit Union, but easier just to call it a bank). Unfortunately, he’s a major decider in whether they get loans. My original take was, ‘audit the living daylights out of his approvals / rejections, correlating financial status and race, *then* decide between PIP and firing based on that’, but facebooking customer info to a friend = nope.

    2. KatieKate*

      Oh lord. I went to #3 as soon as the customer said something (though someone should have caught it before this) and right to #1 as soon as the employee went on facebook. Bad move dude.

    3. Technical_Kitty*

      When he argued privilege with a POC. At that point he’s a moron and needed retraining, because as a white guy he does not get input into an oppressed persons experience. When he sent the personal info of the customer to FB friends he needed to be fired.

      He may or may not be racist, but a black figure with a noose around it’s neck presented on a bank employees desk with no other context is a dumb, dumb, dumb move.

      1. Dr. Johnny Fever*

        I don’t watch Walking Dead and I don’t collect Funko Pop. I’m white and was offended as hell when I saw that figurine. Big red lips and a chain? Horribly out of place. I’d fire the guy; I don’t know how he got that in the door.

        1. Jules the Third*

          Those aren’t supposed to be lips. He’s a zombie, that’s blood. Not that that’s better, I *totally* see how you’re seeing lips.

          I’m not watching the show, but I read the comics when they came out, and Michonne’s ‘pets’ were racially controversial when they first appeared.

      2. LCL*

        He wasn’t arguing privilege. POC don’t get a free pass on having anything removed they deem offensive. POC and PnOC are free to deem something offensive and ask it be removed, but all of us should be expected to explain ourself if we make demands.

        1. Jules the Third*

          I think ‘that figure of a black man with a chain around his neck is offensive’ shouldn’t need any explanation.

    4. Tired Scientist*

      Oh my. As I was reading, I was thinking #3, but when the employee went to Facebook and sending the customer name, has to be #1. Way too far, such poor judgement that firing is warranted IMO.

    5. Not my usual name*

      This is also local for me. I read about it yesterday.

      I think it was bad judgement to have that figure in his office. I totally get how not knowing the context would make it look racist. Knowing it, I think it’s too gory for the office. (His arms aren’t tied…he has no arms.) Wouldn’t offend me personally, but I don’t think it’s super appropriate, particularly when you’re public facing. Not worth firing over, but “dude…no.”

      I don’t like the way he doubled down on it, and I really don’t like how he ranted about it on FB and called out the customer. I think admonish, and PIP are appropriate. Without having been there, I don’t know that I’d go so far as firing…but I don’t think that would be completely out of line, given the way that he reacted to the customer and subsequently. You want someone who can handle disagreements with the public a little more gracefully.

      1. Emi.*

        Yeah, to me the only bright-line offense is here is disclosing a customer’s name. I don’t know very much about banking but that seems like a big no-no.

        1. Not my usual name*

          Yeah, that’s not great. It’s not a field I’m very familiar with either.

    6. Susan Sto Helit*

      Ahahahahahahahaha, I just got GDPR-blocked by that link. I am Not Allowed to view this story in case it leads to the webside accidentally violating EU law.

      1. Jules the Third*

        hahahahhaha! We just finished training on that, and I saw a lot of US media outlets are doing this.

        She’s on FB, post is public, I’m not sure how to link to a single post, but if you want to see the figure, this has a link to a pic of it.

    7. Temperance*

      If it was the figure of Michonne with her pets, that would be one thing, although arguably still hella inappropriate for a customer-facing role. I’m a fan of TWD, and that figure included with the article wouldn’t even have registered to me as one of her pets, because she’s not holding his chain. I have to wonder what the hell that guy was thinking, and why no one else in the office called him out on it.

      FFS, I have a Zombie Penny with the fish-tank figurine at home that I haven’t brought in yet because I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate.

      1. Jules the Third*

        I reaaaaaaaally don’t think zombies are appropriate at most offices. Definitely not if you’re public facing.

        Most likely, no one else had seen it. Each of these offices are pretty isolated, with blinds and the like. And it’s only 2″ tall, easy to overlook if you’re just sticking your head in to ask a question.

        I haven’t been to that location, but I’m a long-time (40+ years) SECU customer, and all their locations have similar layouts / looks.

      2. Fiennes*

        I can believe the guy was nerd enough to see nothing else in it but the tie to the show—but *the first second* someone pointed out that it doesn’t look like that to everyone, he should’ve put it away forever and apologized profusely. Anything else instantly gets you to three, and this guy’s reactions take it to one.

    8. Lawyer Anon*

      If he hadn’t posted on facebook and just let this run its course and explain to a manager, I’d do #3 or even #4 based on his track record (if he’s a glowing employee and this was just an innocent mistake). But with the post on facebook, it has to be #1… horrible judgment to post about this on social media.

    9. Jules the Third*

      Aaaaaaaand : recent reports indicate he was, indeed, fired.

      I have to admit, I kinda want to run into him around town and give him a lecture on professionalism and ‘fandoms are not always ok at work’ and ‘DUDE, IT’S A BLACK GUY IN CHAINS, WAKE UP.’ But our area’s geek population is big enough I probably won’t.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’ve watched the show and seen the pet zombies and the figure does not look like one of them–at first glance, I can totally see why the customer would have given it the side-eye. If it did look as gross as the one on the show, then it’s even less appropriate for work.

        Just keep the weird stuff at home, dude.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah the fact that he is surprised by all this and his follow up reactions, I don’t think the firing was overkill.

          I MIGHT live with a written warning, if he immediately put the thing away and apologized profusely. “Where was my head? I cannot believe I did not see this could happen… [and so on].” That is not the road he chose here.

      2. smoke tree*

        My question is why did it take a customer complaint before someone realized that, no, you shouldn’t put a figurine of a black person in chains on your desk. Where was this guy’s manager?

        1. LCL*

          Funko pops are so stylized it is hard to see them as depicting human beings. I think people that have them see them as cartoon characters. (I live in Funko pop central, and am considering ordering the FrankNFurter one.)

        2. Jules the Third*

          It also would be easy to overlook in their offices. They are set up for privacy, and people don’t go into others’ offices regularly. I don’t blame the managers or coworkers at all for not seeing it.

    10. LCL*

      Disclaimers- I don’t work in banking, I don’t watch the Walking Dead, I am so over the zombie/gore thing but I definitely had a horror obsession phase. Somewhere packed away I have the first two years of Fangoria magazine.

      I pick option 5-tell everyone no zombie/gore imagery, it’s inappropriate for a public office. We have refugees in my state from war zones, and a lot of military vets. None of them should be subject to unexpected depictions of mutilated people. Manager should have removed the figure when it was brought to her attention.

      It really angers me that leading a Facebook charge gets anyone anywhere. The reactive mode of public discourse has made society worse, not better. The complaining customer has every right to complain, but she lost her credibility and right to serious consideration when she got on the drama train. He also used very bad judgement when he told his friend.

  88. Tired Scientist*

    Sigh. Looks like I’ve been ghosted. Interview a month ago, took a day of PTO for it (had to fly in for interview), prepared a 20-minute seminar, seemed like it went well. Then heard nothing. Followed up, quick response that not all decision-makers had provided input yet. Waited another week. Followed up, person was on vacation. Followed up again a week later, and nothing. Crickets. I wouldn’t mind so much if I hadn’t put so much of my time into preparing the seminar, flying out, taking a PTO day from my current job–seems like they could at least tell me no.

    1. Murphy*

      Ugh. I’m sorry. That is so rude.

      That’s happened to me before too, local interview, but no response after.

  89. Rachel*

    Is there anyone on here who works as a director of merchandising or senior buyer who can speak to how the market is for jobs there right now?

    I’m having a really tough time. I have 8 years of inventory management experience at a retailer that you all know, and have applied to jobs that will allow me to use those skills to move into a fulltime buyer, category manager or supply chain position. I’m looking to step up, yes, but I have a LOT of experience doing what the job entails.

    I have been a reader of AAM forever and know all the cardinal rules; achievements, not duties, really compelling cover letters, and being warm, enthusiastic and friendly. I have yet to be called for a single interview. I often get rejected within a day or two of everything I apply for.

    I don’t understand why I can’t even get a phone screen. I’d say I have about 80%+ of qualifications everyone is asking for, and my cover letter really makes a strong case based on achievements I’ve accomplished in similar aspects of my current role. My resume is extremely achievement based, and I’ve always been a very strong writer.

    I’m starting to suspect that this field is insanely competitive and that I’m up against people who were senior buyers at Macy’s for 15 years, and therefore I’m just never, ever going to be competitive, because while this is one aspect of my job, I haven’t held the actual title of “buyer/category manager” yet. Is it just a matter of luck? Striking the right chord with the right hiring manager who for some reason just seems to really like my materials?

    I haven’t job searched in 8 years, but I don’t remember it being this hard last time. It might be a mix of oversaturation of over qualified candidates who are willing to take smaller roles, and the fact that 80% just isn’t good enough anymore. But in that case, how is anyone supposed to step up into a better position? There’s always going to be someone who has 100% what they want, especially with the current job market. Am I chasing a dream here?

    In any case, any insight would be so helpful! :)

    1. SpaceNovice*

      Oh man… that’s a tough one.

      I’m not familiar with the field, but I would suggest reading up on field-important magazines/websites and looking at the LinkedIn profiles of people already employed in similar positions to see how they’re describing their positions. Also, look to see if there’s any weirdness about how hiring works–if there’s networking or something else that’s expected to happen that isn’t normal for other industries. It’s possible you might not have the right keywords and recruiters can’t figure out how your experience ties into their positions.

      1. Rachel*

        That’s a great idea; thank you! I’ll do some sleuthing of LinkedIn profiles to see how they describe what they do. Maybe that’ll help!

  90. MsChanandlerBong*

    In January, I accepted a FT offer from one of my freelance clients. It’s going well, and I am not thinking of leaving right now, but I know I won’t stay forever. For one thing, it’s a small company, so there’s not much room for advancement. One of my supervisors and I also have totally different working styles and personalities, and I find it difficult to connect with him. However, he’s a founder, so it’s not like he’s going to quit and get another job.

    I am trying to be proactive by keeping a document with all my achievements, ideas, completed projects, etc. so it will be easy to update my resume when I am ready to move on. However, I can already see a problem. The fact that it’s a small company is great for me because I get to do things I would not get to do elsewhere. Our roles are not so rigidly defined that I do the same thing every day. The problem is that it’s hard to define my role and show how I have contributed. My main job is to edit submissions and maintain good relationships with writers. I have the authority to terminate writers for poor performance, and I am also supposed to coach them and give them feedback on both writing issues and general issues of professionalism. In addition to those duties, I wrote all the content for our software knowledge base, am currently researching potential investors and writing pitch emails, and do about 70% of the hiring work when we hit our peak season (reviewing resumes and writing samples, conducting phone interviews, processing new-hire paperwork, helping new writers get acclimated to the system, etc.). How can I take advantage of this/minimize any potential problems in my resume and cover letters?

    1. BRR*

      I would keep a “master” resume with your full list of achievements and pick from it to creat a tailored resume depending on the type of job you’re applying for.

  91. Jo March*

    I work in a satellite office with three other employees. Sadly, our Director’s spouse passed away, and employees were asked to sign a card and collect donations for charity. I was voluntold to collect donations for our office and circulate a sympathy card.

    An all-staff email went out to everyone with the sad news. Amy said she would donate, but never did despite my reminders (along the lines of “I’m going to be sending in the donation on Friday!” and her response of “Oh…yeah”). She did sign the sympathy card. I passed the card along to Meg, who directly asked if she owed me any money. I asked if she would like to contribute, and then she backtracked she couldn’t contribute since I had already sent in the money — I clarified that I was going to send in the donation the next day, so she then contributed some change she had in her pocket. Beth contributed a large amount without my even asking her, which I matched with Meg’s donation.

    When I sent the card, which all four of us had signed, to the organizer at the main office, I also mentioned we had sent in a donation to charity. Is this wrong to say if not everyone contributes? But of course I wasn’t going to say Amy hadn’t contributed at all (despite her telling me the day of the donation that she had some extra money to spend on pickled limes).

    I know collecting donations is always a tricky thing with offices. Is there any way to handle these kind of situations? Or is it always going to be a cluster that the collector washes their hands of?

    2. Tara S.*

      Yeah, I’d let it go. People who want to donate will, and don’t worry about the rest. The initial announcement plus one reminder is enough.

    3. Thlayli*

      It’s not wrong. You did send a donation to charity. People were given an opportunity to donate and some did and some didn’t. Whatever was collected was sent in. End of story. You’re overthinking it.

      As to “is it always like this”. Yes, it is always like this. Charity donation is optional, people don’t have to give. Some do and some don’t. Whether she chooses to spend her money on pickled limes (which sound hideous to me) or charity is her business and hers alone.

      1. Thlayli*

        Oh lol! That’s so funny. I didn’t really pay attention to the names but I remember when I was posting thinking the only other time I’d ever heard of pickled limes was in Little women, but I never noticed the names haha

    5. only acting normal*

      When we do collections it’s always anonymous. An envelope goes round with a card and people sign+/donate as they wish/can afford. We have people on a huge range of salaries working side by side (paid intern to senior professional) and people in a huge range of personal circumstances. You can put in nothing or big bucks without credit or censure.
      Plus not everyone supports every charity – but a bereavement is not soapbox time for why x-charity is BS.

  92. Zillish*

    I work at a country club — our pool is opening up for the season tomorrow and obviously we’ve been furiously prepping for the last few weeks. The director has been receiving a lot of last minute packages and many of them are getting accidentally delivered along with the regular FedEx/UPS shipments at the reception desk where I work. I’m very friendly with the pool director, so I’ve just been cheerfully calling his cell phone every other day to let him know what supplies he needs to come pick up — “Hi Thaddeus, I have the swim diapers you were waiting for!” “Hi Thaddeus, I have your file folders from Staples!” “Hi Thaddeus, I have your new radios!”

    So, yesterday I received a half dozen boxes of various sports equipment — basketballs, volleyballs and soccer balls. So I called Thaddeus to tell him the items he was expecting had arrived. “Hi Thaddeus,” I said happily. “I have your –” and then my brain froze. Because what had been about to come out of my mouth was, “I have your balls!” Reader, we are friends, but we are still co-workers and that’s not the sort of thing we usually joke about.

    Unfortunately I was so thunderstruck by what I had been about to blithely say, that I was unable to come up with alternative wording on the spot. I stammered for a second before just closing my eyes and accepting it. “I have– I have– I have your balls. I was going to say, I have your balls. And then I realized what I was about to say just before it came out of my mouth, but my brain short-circuited and I can’t think of another way to say it. I’m so sorry.”

    He laughed. “It’s ok, I figured out what you meant,” he said. And then I left for the day, still flustered by my slip, before he came down to the main building to pick them up. I saw him this morning and everything was normal, so now it’s just a funny story. But still! “I have your balls!” Way to go, me.

    1. BadWolf*

      Funny!

      I was debugging a problem with a coworker over the phone. He had just sent me a zip file (several files mushed and consolated into one file). It is totally normal to use “unzip” in regards to this type of file. “I need to unzip logs.zip.” but he commented, “I’ll wait to until you’re unzipped” which led to an awkard pause and him making sort of a strangled sound and I said quickly, “Have the file, unzipping it!!”

  93. krysb*

    Anyone who has done professional development classes/certificates/degrees, such as those offered by the Harvard Extension School, did you find the cost worth it? Did they actually benefit you in your career? I’m contemplating going this path for my masters, but I want to get a read on other people’s experiences.

    1. Alice*

      I’m interested in this too, especially a certificate versus an MBA. Would love to hear the commentariat’s take.

  94. Tilney*

    My BF has spent the past 4 years or so running a sports website. It’s part of a larger group of sites, and he does get paid for it, etc., though is technically an independent contractor. He supervises a staff of 10 or so writers, deals with scheduling them, editing their work, and also writes himself. He’s expanded the site’s social media presence during his time running the site, and the site has a regular community of folks who are involved in.

    He’s looking to get a more regular job that doesn’t require him devoting 6+ months of the year to the sport (it takes a LOT of time, and a lot on nights and weekends). His degree is in political science, and he wants to do something with writing/communications. Anyone have ideas for where to look, beyond Media Bistro? I don’t know that he’s really sure of what area he’d like to go into, so obviously I’m also not sure. We’re in the DC area, so I feel like there are loads of opportunities around.

    1. Manders*

      Is content marketing something he’d be interested in? It sounds like he’s already got a ton of relevant experience.

      1. Tilney*

        Interesting–I don’t think he’s thought of that as a possibility. I’ll suggest it!

    2. anon for this one*

      One possibility that would use a lot of the same skill set would be working in communications for a think tank or professional association, particularly one with a website/newsletter that goes out to members. A similar dynamic of a lot of stakeholders who you need to engage, the need for editing skills, etc., but much more reasonable hours, and there are a ton of jobs like that in DC. A bonus is getting to work on an issue that’s interesting to you (Associations are basically lobbying groups, but there’s one for just about every policy area/topic/field, whether it’s chemical research or public universities or city planning/transportation…) There’s a blog called publicaffairsjobs dot blogspot dot com that collects some of these opportunities.

      If he wants to stay in media, if there are jobs at the parent company, his experience there as a contractor would likely be a bonus, and there likely are jobs that don’t require as much work on nights and weekends. (Based on your description, I suspect I work for the same company under a different banner, and someone who is familiar with our CMS, our values, etc., would get a small leg up in the search process if I were the hiring manager.)

  95. The Cosmic Avenger*

    Oh! I do have a question!

    On casual Fridays at my company, many women wear sandals. Even my boss wears them throughout the week. I wear jeans, but would it be weird for a guy to wear Teva or Birkenstock sandals on a casual Friday? My partner says yes, but I would like to appeal to the peanut gallery. :)

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Oh, and yes, sandals for women include flip flops, even on weekdays. I wouldn’t try sandals with Dockers, though.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      1. Make sure you’ve had a pedicure if you wear sandals.
      2. Teva and Birkenstocks read as too casual, even for casual Friday. Do any of the women wear that style of sandal?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Actually, I think one person wears them daily, but it’s not someone I see more than once in a blue moon. But some women wear flip flops that are the kind you’d find in the beachwear section, not the fancy shoe store style. In my opinion that’s on par with Birks or Tevas.

        And while I don’t get pedicures (not that there’s anything wrong with that, I probably would if I was given a gift certificate or something), I keep my toenails neatly trimmed, as I wear sandals a lot outside the office.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Maybe if the guy’s toes are manicured…

      More seriously, I know tech co.s where tevas are daily wear, and tech co.s where you would never do that. I think I wouldn’t want to be the first guy who did it. And I hear you can’t wear them with socks, though I always do, but only outside work.

    4. Murphy*

      In my office (similar footwear) I feel like that would be OK on a Friday. I’m trying to think if I’ve actually seen it though. *spends the rest of the day eyeing men’s feet*

    5. Tara S.*

      Depends on the office. In most of my east coast work places, it’s a total double standard but I would say no, it’s not ok for a to have open toe shoes, even on casual Friday. But here in Colorado? *I* would be a little thrown by it, but I don’t think people in my office would care. Different standards.

    6. Pebbles*

      Well, I am wearing Tevas right now (without socks) at my tech company. However we don’t have casual Fridays because every day is casual day for us, to the point where we are allowed to wear shorts whenever. So I’m not sure I’m much help. :)

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      They do make dressier men’s sandals… I’ve put a link to a similar pair that my husband wears. I wouldn’t think anything of a man wearing a shoe similar to this in an office where sandals were ok. I do think Teva’s are a little too casual, birkenstocks are borderline for me, I think it depends on the style and material.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        I mean, in our office, Birkenstock are fine during the normal work week, so ymmv. That said, I feel like if the women are wearing strappy sandals and that’s okay, then men wearing buckled leather sandals should also be fine. The line for me would be velcro or nylon. But for me, something like T’Challa’s sandals in Black Panther (best movie ever)would read as completely appropriate for casual Friday in a space that permits open-toed shoes.

    8. Thlayli*

      There’s no explicit rule, but I think many people feel uncomfortable or grossed out seeing body hair at work. So if you have hairy feet I would say no. Or shave them first.

      If you don’t have hairy feet and your feet are clean and smell nice it wouldn’t be an issue. But something about seeing body hair is just really… intimate? Gross? Not sure why it is. If you think about it all the parts of your body that are usually acceptable in a workplace are not hairy parts. When I posted this before someone mentioned that around the time women started to shave body hair was also around the time women started showing more skin in public.

      I’m convinced this is an unwritten rule of professionalism because I have never seen anyone showing hairy body parts in a professional setting (except forearms in really really hot weather).

    9. MissDissplaced*

      Teva and Birks seem too casual to me unless others wear them. Are there any other guys wearing sandals? If others are wearing these “sport” styles, I think I’d opt for the Teva kind over the hippyish Birks.

    10. Windchime*

      I only know of one man who wears sandals in my office. They are Tevas, and he wears them with white socks. Why yes, we are in Seattle — why do you ask?

  96. Me--Blargh!*

    I just applied for a technical writer job at a company that rejected me for an admin position back in November. Hey, what do I have to lose? Nothing. That’s how I got my last job–I’d interviewed for a receptionist position but then applied to the consulting assistant position and got that one. In my previous interview with this company, I’d asked the hiring manager about possibilities for advancement within the company and he mentioned that department. It might be a little over my head since they asked about Illustrator and InDesign, but he had also said there was extensive product training, and I pick up that sort of thing really fast. Plus, I have a boffo style guide on my clippings website. I could do it. GIVE ME A SHOT. It would knock an admin job off my resume. Come on, universe; stop with the c*ck-blocking already.

    I also put in for a business procedural writing job in St. Louis with a cable company. No one in St. Louis seems to want me. I’m only three hours away; it’s not like I’m applying from Abu Dhabi, folks. All the lower-level positions here want accounting. All those hiring receptionists in healthcare want previous healthcare experience (probably because of HIPAA) and won’t even call me.

    I need to get something FAST. I’m reliant on my mum right now, and I feel like a tremendous parasite. I feel as though people will think I’m like that weird guy who got evicted recently from his parents’ home. Also, she sent me a birthday card and her handwriting has deteriorated, which is awful and sad. Why can’t I win the lottery or something so I can give HER money? I feel like the most useless person on earth.

    1. Lrrr of Omicron Persei 8*

      I don’t have much to say other than I know what that feels like :( As soon as I heard about that one guy getting evicted from his parents’ home, my thought also immediately went to “I really don’t want to be that person” because I also currently live at home, am unemployed, and feel completely worthless to the point I’ve had several episodes thinking I shouldn’t even be eating certain meals because I feel so useless (hell, I’ve been rejected by even retail). All I can say is hopefully things will get better and pick up soon for you, and if you haven’t already, I’d really recommend cover letters (Alison’s given wonderful advice on those). That’s actually how I had landed one of my past nicer jobs, despite having no experience in the field before.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Good luck to both of us!

        I’m not living with my mum. I can’t. I don’t want to. There is stuff from when I was a kid that will just make my anxiety worse if I have to do that. My brother and I already discussed things — we think our sister needs to step up if she can’t live on her own anymore but in reality it will probably be him.

        I just need a damn break already!

    2. BRR*

      Ugh I’m sorry. Is there a St. Louis address from family or a friend to use on your application materials?

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I could but there is no way to explain why I would need extra time to relocate and they would know I lied. I’ve been saying I have family in the area and am fine with relocating. But why would anyone hire me when a bigger place probably has umpteen applicants who live in the area already and are probably more qualified? :P

        If I could get this one here, and it paid at least as well as Exjob, I could save up to leave because my housing here is soooo cheap. That wouldn’t happen if I took an admin job over there; they don’t pay well enough to afford the jump in housing costs.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Good vibes by the tractor trailer load coming toward you from NYS. Hang tuff, they are on their way.

    5. Windchime*

      Have you had a look at Flexjobs.com? I’ve not used it, but I know of people who have successfully found remote jobs using that site. If you could find a remote job as a virtual assistant, that would at least allow you to stay in your low cost of living area and get back on your feet until you were able to relocate to St. Louis.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. Hang in there.

  97. Teapot librarian*

    We have some construction going on this week so my entire staff has the week off. Meanwhile I’m here in the office getting tons of stuff done. Not necessarily the things that are supposed to be my top priority, but things that have needed to be done for the last six or more years. My team are going to come back on Tuesday to boxes with LABELS and carts of things to deal with. Along with beautifully painted walls.

    1. MsChanandlerBong*

      Sounds lovely. I always say I’d get so much more done if all my coworkers went home and didn’t message me on Slack literally 150 times a day. :)

  98. Anonymous for this one*

    I just have to share this….

    I have a good friend who is a teacher, and this week included Teacher Appreciation Day, sponsored by the school’s PTO. In the past, they’ve gotten a nice catered lunch or gift cards. This year, they teachers were rounded up and sent out onto the grounds in the heat (this is in a southern state) to hunt for Easter eggs. Inside each egg was a slip of paper that you could redeem for gifts such as a candy bar or a bottle of water. If you were extra lucky, you might get one of the few special eggs that had a $15 Target card.

    That is SO how you shouldn’t treat teachers.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      ………………………………………………………………

      I mean, this is how you shouldn’t treat adults, period.

      But – wow.

      That’s beyond awful. I can’t even accurately put it into words.

      Wow.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would not have searched and hoped that everyone else did not search also.

  99. Hal, another Fed*

    So. My boyfriend works for his Dad’s company. His expectation is to take things over one day but I feel that is highly unlikely. BF and his Dad had a huge blow-up last night and BF is avoiding work today for the purposes of cooler heads prevailing.
    So. That to me brings up much of Alison’s sage advise (we can’t change our managers/business owners) and he wants looking for new positions. But having worked for the family business for 8+ years, who would be good references? Not sure about his Dad or his brother who works there occasionally. They had another employee who left last year, but she wasn’t a supervisor. Clients?

    1. Thlayli*

      I think his dad is actually a realistic reference since he was his boss for 8 years.

      However clients are a good reference for a builder too.

  100. Mariella*

    Unsure if anyone will remember my post from last week about my co worker Jane passing back work that is within her job spec.

    I spoke to my manager Sarah this week, as luck would have it Jane has been particularly prolific with it recently.

    I asked Jane to do a time sensitive request for me. (Making sure we had the blue teapots not red coming in the following day before they were despatched) i was not in the office at the time and could not fulfill the request myself.

    Cue Jane going straight to senior management and saying she did not understand the request and that i should have fulfilled the request prior to leaving the office (it came in 5 mins before i left). Senior management clarified, and she called the vendor.

    She followed up with an email stating the teapots were definitely being despatched today and i ‘need’ to call the vendor to ensure blue teapots were despatched not red. I called but they had despatched the red ones. Hmm.

    My meeting with Sarah did not go as well i hoped. I raised several points to her, and got platitudes (everyone has definitions of busy.. oh i cant pull Jane up that..etc etc)

    Very frustrating but in the interests of venting i will mention my top 3 Jane moments.

    1. Painting her toenails at her desk.
    2. Falling asleep at her desk, with snoring and comically large open mouth.
    3. Forgetting to approve all our courier invoices so they suspended our services and were not able to send out any orders for a week.

      1. Mariella*

        It’s one of the things Sarah said she couldnt pull Jane up on unfortunately..

  101. ann perkins*

    Does anyone have tips for learning Excel formulas? I know the basics, but I know my boss would like me to know more advanced vlookup/index/etc formulas. I found and Excel With Business course but so far I am not finding it particularly helpful and really do want to learn. thanks in advance!

    1. 123456*

      There’s at least one huge thread here on Excel tricks I would recommend perusing. I learn better by practice, so I’d probably pull a big report with data I’m at least somewhat familiar with and just start messing around in it. If there are certain things I want to learn- pivot tables, index match, concatenate, subtotal, if then statements, macros, conditional formatting, different formats- I’d try to apply it to the report and see what works and what you can start applying more regularly. If you don’t know at all what you want to learn, look at the report and think about what it’d be nice to do and start Googling. I can’t believe the stuff I find just searching ‘excel how to’ whatever.
      If I know what I want to do, I usually use YouTube, Stack Overflow, or just search.

    4. Thlayli*

      I’ve learned a lot from:
      Googling how to do things
      Talking to people who use excel
      YouTube – there are tons of YouTube excel videos
      Messing around in excel and trying to find stuff.

      But honestly the most I learned was from actually figuring it out as I go using google and YouTube

    5. Finance PA*

      If what you’re looking to learn is things like vlookups, index/match etc, Google is really a good bet. Rather than doing a course that will tell you a bunch of things you won’t put into practice immediately and will therefore likely forget (if you’re like me)! If you use some of your own data to practice with you can see how functions can work best for you. Also, if you find yourself thinking that anything you’re doing in excel is lengthy and annoying, Google whether there’s a quicker way! That’s how I learned pretty much everything in excel. If it’s not something I currently need to use I forget it, but if I take this approach I learn a lot for future and my ability with excel has earned me a lot of praise at work. I used to be quite scared of excel functions some years ago but now I love excel a lot, it’s really useful!

    6. only acting normal*

      I got the hang of most Excel functions (VBA excluded) just following the Excel help examples. (I sometimes think I may be the only person on the planet that speaks Microsoft help file, but, hey, it worked for me.)

    7. Emily S.*

      I’ve had very good experiences with a site called Lynda . com. They have many classes on Excel, with great videos and helpful exercises to do.

      Many libraries give free access online for cardholders. It has loads of excellent classes. (I took a good one on managing time with Todd Dewett.)

  102. Wendy Darling*

    Yesterday I was on a conference call with three male colleagues and while we were waiting for something to happen two of my colleagues were shooting the breeze and happened to land upon how much they like Jordan Peterson.

    Misogynist Jordan Peterson. Enforced monogamy Jordan Peterson. Canada’s worst export Jordan Peterson.

    I didn’t say anything to them then and I don’t want to say anything to them now but I was HORRIFIED and I have to keep working with these guys who are apparently if not raging misogynists themselves cool enough with virulent misogyny to endorse one of its more public practitioners. And I’m appalled that they thought this was something okay to say at work.

    It comes right on top of my increasing discomfort with one of my coworkers making a lot of jokes at women’s expense, of the “ha ha women amirite” variety — jokes about how his ex-wife got all his money in the divorce as ex-wives always do, jokes about how his girlfriend talks too much just like all women, ha ha women amirite? I do not find these jokes funny but I’m also pretty new, below him in the heirarchy (he’s not my manager but he is A manager and I am very junior), and not comfortable being Wendy Who Doesn’t Like Jokes.

    Since I don’t want to confront anyone about this crap is there even anything I CAN do? I could mention it to my female manager who I’m pretty sure would be supportive, but 1. if she wasn’t supportive I would basically curl up and die, and 2. that seems a lot like tattling and I am a goddamn adult.

    This is definitely not in any way sexual harassment but it is something ongoing that is making me as a woman less comfortable at work in a field where this is a huge, widely known, ongoing problem.

    1. LCL*

      You were on a conference call? You could have asked all of your second paragraph at them. That’s not really confrontational. One way to deal with these guys is to question them very sincerely about what they say. You’re not telling them they can’t talk that way around you, you’re not threatening to report them. You’ve got to be able to deliver these sincerely without any snark, and with a hint of bewilderment in your voice. Pretend you are an alien anthropologist studying humans.
      He says the thing about money and ex wives, ask him if that is really true? Can he point to any statistics? Why does he think this is? How big is the sample size?
      He says the thing about women talking too much-how much is too much? Is there a field of academic study for women’s acceptable talking? Industry standards? Different standards for girlfriend vs wife vs coworker? Has it been proven that women talk too much?

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My academic background is actually linguistics and there have been studies on how much women talk compared to men. The overwhelming consensus in the field is that in mixed-gender groups women talk at most an equal amount as men, but generally they talk less than men — but if women talk the same amount as men the men perceive them as having massively dominated the conversation and as having talked far more than the men did. Men also tend to overestimate how much women talked in a given situation generally. By a lot. Obviously there are variations (what is the group mix? Is it a social or professional situation? Friends or strangers?) but the patterns are quite consistent.

        I used to TA undergrad classes where this came up and I have never succeeded in convincing any of the guys who came in thinking women talked way more than men. I could show them statistics and quote studies all day long and they’d still be like “well my girlfriend talks nonstop so obviously that’s not right.” I used to fantasize about having one of my male colleagues come in and deliver that lecture.

    2. epi*

      Since you are managed by a woman you mostly have confidence in, I would definitely talk to her. Her help could include anything from helping you decide whether to talk to HR, to advice about how she responds to those types of comments, to giving you an occasional place to vent and the assurance that she doesn’t think the comments are OK. In general, don’t hold stuff back from your manager just because you think you know all the things they might be able to do for you. (I hope that doesn’t come off as scolding you, it was something I had to learn repeatedly myself before it sunk in.)

      It’s also possible that the comments you’re describing, disparaging people on the basis of sex or gender, would be considered very inappropriate and even harassing even though no one is engaging in any sexual behavior towards you. That is good information for you to have. If you’re worried about it, tell her about just a couple of the comments first and see how she responds. Then decide if you want to share just how much are you are hearing this stuff.

      I’m sorry this is happening to you. It isn’t acceptable and I would feel the same way about it.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          I also would have MOCKED those guys on the call right after hitting record on my personal phone and asking them to repeat what they had just said.

          Then again, I’m the a$$hole from last week who told off Big Boss(tm) for touching me by telling him to imagine Dave “The Hammer” Schultz standing in front of him. (See link in my name here for a pic of Philly’s favorite hockey enforcer.)

    3. Thlayli*

      “Is there anything I can do”

      Complain to your supervisor about the guy who makes misogynist jokes by all means – that’s actually affecting your work environment and you have the right to complain about that.

      But you really can’t complain about people having political opinions and mentioning them in a conversation. thats just going to look like you’re a crazy person. If you had been talking about how much you liked a politician they disliked, do you think they should make a complaint about you?

      people have the right to have political opinions. They have the right to think whatever they want. You can’t complain about their beliefs and opinions any more than they can about yours. Unless they actually do or say something to you that is hurtful or offensive, you can’t complain. Especially since you apparently gave them no indication whatsoever that this topic was upsetting to you.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I honestly think it is perfectly within my rights to complain that my coworkers are discussing how much they like someone who is openly misogynistic, believes women are less competent than men, is adversarial toward trans and nonbinary people, and calls for the redistribution of sex (to men — he doesn’t care how much sex women are or are not having) as the solution to men killing people. The guy basically blames women for all problems in the world. As a woman, I find it profoundly uncomfortable to be around people who are super into someone who HATES WOMEN.

        If I was Muslim and someone started talking about how much they admire Trump’s Muslim ban, is that okay? How about if I was black and someone started in on what a great guy Richard Spencer was? Why is it okay for people to express views where I have to work that involve the hatred and oppression of a group I’m a member of if those are their political views?

        1. Reba*

          UGH. I’m with you, Wendy Darling, that this goes well beyond “political opinion”. Also understand the desire not to have an extended discussion about it with the Chads in your office. I do wonder if a well placed, “Wow. [pause] Do you really think this is appropriate to talk about at work?” would do anything for the situation. Let them know you hear it and object but without getting into the issue itself.

          I hope that you have some senior women in the company, even if not your direct manager, that you could talk to and build relationships with.

    4. AnonJ*

      It may not be sexual harassment but if it is pervasive and is affecting your ability to do your job it may be approaching a hostile work environment. You should definitely mention it to your manager and frame it in that light. You’re the only woman on the call or one of the few on the team and you’re continually subjected to such talk and your employer should be concerned because it could subject them to legal complaints and liability if they don’t address it. You should not have to deal with this. And just because you’re not comfortable speaking up in the moment doesn’t mean you should suffer through being subjected to it. It’s management’s job to create a safe and comfortable work environment for everyone, not yours. If you get push back for bringing up your concerns, that might be an issue of illegal retaliation. Set up a time to meet with your manager and express your discomfort and concern with what you’re being subjected to.

  103. 123456*

    Is anyone in HR or Operational Development that can tell me what/how it’s like?
    Mostly based on needing a job and accepting the first decent one available, I’ve meandered from business operations/workforce management for a call center to client accounting/payroll analyst position to now corporate payroll, which I don’t like, I’m trying to figure out a direction to take my career and a path there. Some of my experience that I liked included pulling/writing reports, auditing payroll information and taxability (aside from now running payroll), lots of process improvement and documentation, new hire presentations, and working on projects such as training initiatives or attrition.
    Ideally I want to look for a position in HR as a generalist, preferably with my current company if I can, and go to grad school for Operational Development. Is this feasible for someone with an unrelated degree but 5-7 years “HR adjacent” experience? Am I off base thinking my prior experience could segue into HR? Is there stuff I should/shouldn’t emphasize when writing my application materials? Are there other positions I should be on the lookout for that may be similar in experience and career path? Anything people want to chime in on is appreciated.

  104. Emi.*

    This is kind of work-related. I work at a “cool” federal agency — you can buy shirts with our logo from Target, etc, we have a visitor center and gift shop that the public actually go to, etc. When we get people retirement or shower gifts, they usually come from the agency gift shop. Is it weird to give non-work people stuff from there, or does that seem like a gift that’s more about me than about the recipient? (I’m asking because I just found out about a friend’s baby shower TONIGHT, but I don’t actually know her that well so I don’t know how to personalize something for her.)

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I’d get a generic baby gift over any branded stuff. Like onesies, or burp clothes, or a pacifier, or a gift card to a baby boutique, or something the parents will actually use on Baby.

    2. H.C.*

      In a general sense, I’m on the fence about it. There are instances where I don’t care if the gift came from friend’s or family’s workplace since it’s an item that’s well-designed and functional and needed, and there are times when I’m just “stop unloading your free / heavily-discounted branded ‘gifts’ on me!” (I don’t actually say that, obvs.)

      It really depends if the recipient will actually enjoy or appreciate the gift. And failing all else, I don’t think it’s gauche to get an Amazon or Target (e-)gift card—parents are gonna need a lot of stuff they didn’t plan for.

      1. H.C.*

        Having said that, if your agency is NASA – I would love an ‘Astronaut in Training’ onesie or some such things ;)

        1. Tara S.*

          I was gonna say, if it’s NASA just go for it. I would personally think it’s cool.

  105. Ms. Meow*

    One of our summer interns started this week! He has a project in the lab and has started in on it with so much enthusiasm. The only “problem” so far is down time. For a good chunk of the work we do, you prep samples/standards then run them on the instrument which can take hours. So today he started his run and now he has 3 hours to kill until the data is ready. For regular employees we have administrative tasks to take care of while our stuff is running, but since he’s an intern he doesn’t really have that kind of work. We’ve all suggested training modules, articles to read, and asking around if anyone needs help, but I don’t want him to feel like he’s letting us down if he’s not actively working on something. How do we let him know that it’s okay that he’s not grinding for the entire 8 hours that he’s here?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Tell him flat out, and keep telling him. Be explicit. “While your data is running and there’s nothing else that someone needs help with, it is completely fine if you want to read a book or go online or go out for a cup of coffee. You don’t have to grind for the entire 8 hours you’re here.” Rinse and repeat. I’ve had several jobs where I’ve been overwhelmed by guilt because I was waiting for someone to get back to me, and it would have been a kindness for someone to say it was ok.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      First, explain that this is normal, and that the chunks of “downtime” are expected. Give him stuff to do in that downtime, don’t expect him to search it out necessarily. There are probably weird things that would be helpful that he’s never know. (Is your supply closet a disaster?) If you want, give him permission to read/work on something else (provide guidelines).

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Instead of suggesting the things that you have, why not assign them to him. When I have interns, their work is a mixture of projects, tasks, and at least one ‘downtime project’ . That’s the kind that’s a nice to have done thing for me (something that’s not critical but it would be nice if it happened, with no repercussions if it doesn’t happen) and it’s something that can be picked up and put down as needed. I use these so that the intern is bored while they wait for others to train them or work with them on something.

      1. H.C.*

        Yeah, when I was interning there were plenty of downtime activities that we can work on (usually to accomplish stretch goals that are nice but not necessary, prepare for next phase of a project or doing an extra check on work before finalizing).

  106. Coffee Ninja*

    Tl;dr: I’m thinking about going back to school to switch fields, I think I can do it, but everyone is telling me I’m going to fail and I don’t know what else to do.

    I was a job hopper in most of my 20s, was never really sure what I wanted to do, quit jobs after a year or 2 when I ran into the slightest difficulty (looking back, I mean. They didn’t feel slight at the time). Looking back, I made most of my career decisions via knee-jerk emotions. I’m 34 and much more mature, I’ve also been going to therapy which has been immensely helpful.

    I went to grad school and got my master’s in counseling; I wanted to do higher ed but didn’t get in because of my undergrad grades (I was one of those “naturally smart” kids who got excellent grades without studying, so college was a nightmare) but the guidance counseling program accepted me. I got a 4.0 in my grad program and 6 years later, I’m working in higher ed administration (HA! Take that, grad school program) but I hate it. I liked the job I had after grad school, before I got this current job, but it was exhausting because I was working with at-risk kids all day, got paid way below market rate, and I had to pick up some of my boss’s duties because she had kids and I didn’t.

    I want to go back to school to be a PA (physician’s assistant). I’m too old for med school, and I don’t want that large of a time/money commitment anyway. My boyfriend is a med resident so I know it’s not glamorous. I’ve been doing a TON of research over the last couple weeks (salaries, job postings I think I would be interested in, talking to current students and working PAs, basically everything I can think of). I methodically went through the Occupational Outlook Handbook to pick out possible careers and rule out ones that don’t fit my skills/interests/etc.

    I feel like I’m not coming to this situation lightly, but my mom (who I’m close to, emotionally and geographically) is SO ANGRY about this that I’m holding back tears while typing this. The short version is she thinks I’m not capable because I’m not strong enough mentally or physically to handle the program or the career. She won’t offer any viable alternatives. I think she’s projecting, because her boss is honestly abusive (she works for a tiny business and OMG the things she puts up with) but she feels she is “obligated” to stay because boss lets her work a flexible schedule. (?)

    I’m sorry this got so long. I have a therapist appointment tomorrow but I needed to get this off my chest and hear anyone’s thoughts if they have any, considering I keep busting out in tears at my desk (yay for everyone else taking off for the holiday!). My bf has been wonderful (more about him in the weekend thread if I have a chance!) but he is having a rough time himself so I can only burden him with so much.

    1. Peachy*

      My husband just graduated PA School on Monday! I definitely think it takes a certain type of person to pursue it, but if you’ve given it lots of thought, I say go for it!

      Also, you shouldn’t feel like it’s too late for a career change. My husband was in a very small class of 18, and there were probably 5 people in their 30’s and 40’s in his class that held various jobs before (yoga instructor, history teacher, etc).

      I’m sorry your mom is upset with you. I can absolutely relate. I currently work in an office job in a sales support position, but just got my substitute teaching certification. My mom (who I am close with) already told me 8 months ago I “wasn’t cut out for teaching”. I haven’t yet told her I got my certification and am actively looking for jobs.

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        Congratulations Peachy! I used to work in K-12 education and teachers are amazing people. Good luck and have fun :) I’m sorry your mom isn’t more supportive. Who wouldn’t be happy their child wanted to be a teacher!? It’s probably wise you didn’t tell her you got your cert, but how sad you can’t share that happy moment.

        I know this is a lot to ask, but do you think your husband would mind answering a couple short questions about the profession? (If not I totally understand!) My email is coffeeninja05@gmail.com

    2. Technical_Kitty*

      It’s too bad your mom can’t be more supportive. PA can be stressful, and it certainly takes a type of person to do that kind of work. I had my OFALvl3 (below EMT, remote emergency first aid, like driller crushes their hand I have to assist, provide stabilization and care until we can reach medial help a couple hours away) and that was more personal responsibility than I wanted in my life. Is there a way you can job shadow? That might be your best bet for getting a really good understanding of what you are getting into! Or just find and talk to current PA’s about what it’s like?

      1. H.C.*

        +1 on reaching out to current PAs (if possible, several of them so it’s more representative of the field), treating them to a snack/coffee and discuss what their work is like.

      2. That Awful Paperclip*

        I second this idea! I looked into becoming an Occupational Therapist, and it was actually speaking to OTs that made me realize it wasn’t suited for me. The OTs I talked to loved their jobs, but for all the reasons I was skeptical about pursuing the field, and seeing that it took that type of person to do that job really helped my make up my mind. :)

    3. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry you’re not getting support, that’s so hard. Like others said, reaching out to other PAs would be good. Could you maybe do some things while working your current job before you jump into PA school full time? Like are there pre-recs you could take at the local community college? That might make the transition feel more gradual.

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        Hi Tara! Thank you for your reply :) It’s funny you mentioned pre-reqs, I have to retake the classes required for all the PA program applications because my undergrad was so long ago. It is an inconvenience but I think it would be good to refresh the material and would also be a good gatekeeper – if I struggle with the classes or don’t enjoy them, maybe it’s not the right move?

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Hmm.

      I hate to be another person in your life not offering support, but I’d encourage you to slow way down in thinking about this potential change. I’m concerned that you’re looking for an escape hatch out of a job you hate, rather than thinking about what you really want for your future.

      A history of job hopping + going to grad school in a different field after being rejected by the field you want + hate your current job (that’s in the field that you had originally planned to go into) + only two weeks of research into a new field that requires additional schooling + funky family dynamics makes me worried that you’re not giving yourself enough time/grace/mental space/reflection/etc. to make healthy, loving decisions about your career and work. Your history looks like a lot of reacting to circumstances (which, duh, we all do — but hopefully we can build the muscle of getting out ahead of these kind of situations) rather than making proactive choices for yourself.

      So I hope you give yourself (lots of) time to make this decision. Like, months (or more), not weeks. Talk about it with your therapist, and your boyfriend, and everybody but your mom. :)

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        These are all great points, Victoria, thank you for taking the time to reply.

        I’ve been using the last few months to really take my time and research pros/cons different professions (or, I’ve been trying to at least. Hopefully I’ve been effective!) For example, my bf thinks I’d excel at owning my own business such as a coffee shop. I love him for thinking so, and it means a lot, but I know I’m not internally motivated enough to make a venture like that sustainable (financing worries aside). PA programs require shadowing as part of the application process, so that will help shed some more light on things.

        I do know what I don’t like about my current job: I like task-oriented job duties, which I don’t have many of. I *hate* being glued to a computer for 45 hours a week, looking at Excel and Word documents – to which my mom snottily replied, well how do you think you’ll take your patients’ histories and enter their test orders!? (implying I was too stupid to understand PAs also use computers). To your point about “hating [my] current job (that’s in the field that you had originally planned to go into” – I wanted to go into academic advising/student affairs and I work in 100% administration. Because of the things I don’t like about my working environment, I’d rather change fields than departments at this point I think.

        I wanted to go to med school when I was a kid (middle school/beginning of HS) but my parents discouraged it because they both worked in medicine and didn’t feel the career would pay for the education by the time I would be a practicing doctor.

        1. Awkward Interviewee*

          Not sure if I’m too late for you to see this, but just in case…
          I work in academic advising. I really like it. I too prefer more task oriented and I really don’t like using Excel all day (did that in grad school!) So you may like advising a lot more than your current job.
          As far as PA school, I obviously can’t speak to whether it’s a good fit for your personality. I can, however, caution you to do a lot of research as far as admissions. While probably not as competitive as medical school, you do need excellent grades in difficult science courses. And even if you do well when you retake your prereqs, they will likely look at your grades from your first undergraduate degree, which you say aren’t great. I’m not trying to discourage you, I just want to make sure you’re setting realistic expectations.

  107. Technical_Kitty*

    Semi-update, it looks like my company came through! I was in a position where a co-worker was moved from a process department to my R&D department (not really but closest analogy) and retained his title which was the same as mine, and he was paid more than I was. He was not capable of the technical work required, and certainly not up to R&D work in any way, he’s better at processes and likes to have things laid out for him, but here we are more on the “hhmm, interesting problem, lets see if there some new tech we can use or something weird we can do with the old stuff!” side, which is really difficult for him. So, I was very, very angry. Like looking for a new job angry, it was incredibly disrespectful and I was very unhappy with the situation.

    But! It looks like my boss and the higher ups came through despite going into a rough year next year. Got a decent raise and my bonus was well above the company norm. Like, no one was getting above the set % and I hear they were being very tough on giving full marks, but I got half again more. So, it looks like I don’t have to move, which is awesome!

  108. Peachy*

    I’m leaving for vacation in 4 hours and won’t be back until JUNE 5TH!

    So. Pumped.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      High five on that one! I’m officially “back” and working from home on the 5th but then I’m taking the 6th off for something else, so once we close today, I won’t be back here until JUNE 7TH!!!

      Have fun on your vacation. :)

  109. CynicallySweet7*

    I’m surrounded by people obsessed with fantasy sports and I honestly think my one time professed lack of interest in them is stopping me from being able to make friends.

    For some background: I’ve worked with my company for 1/3 of my life, but around this time last year I changed jobs / departments. I’d been in my previous department for 9 years, and we were verry close. Too close (one of my co-workers treated me like I was one of her kids). When I switched one of the things I was excited about was some separation between work and my personal life, but maybe not this much. On my first day one of my new co-workers asked if I like fantasy football, and I said I don’t. Which is true, I don’t like or get them particularly.

    Tbh I didn’t think that would have been that big of a deal (or I would’ve said something more along the lines of ‘I’d be willing to learn about them’). But the people in my office are obsessed, I’m surrounded by talk about it (which is fine I have headphones that I use), they all listen to the same radio shows about it, and they spend their out of work/lunch breaks together talking about it. What’s really bothering me is that I get left out of a lot of things because I don’t like them. Almost my entire department is in the same league. The few of us that aren’t treated poorly or anything, but we get left out of a lot. For example my floor just cleared b/c all the fantasy sports people went to lunch together (my floor isn’t small, there are three of us still here).

    I don’t know why this bothers me so much, but it really does. I knew the dept I was going into was clique-y, but this really kind of sucks. Most of my friends at this company have left (and in almost all cases moved across the country in one way or another), and I’m really having a hard time just finding someone to just talk to, which hurts. Not everyone has to like me, I get and accept that, but I feel like I’m missing a lot of opportunities to connect with my co-workers bc I’m not into this thing that they’re all obsessed with.

    The guy who sits next to me and is on my team is often the one organizing these events. And I honestly think he’d be horrified to hear that this makes me upset (he’s a really nice guy). But it is hard to have people stop by and talk about the group plans all day, and then gather around his cube (and by association mine) and then have like 15 people leave w/o any sort of acknowledgement. But I have no idea what to do about it other than ask why I’m never invited, which I don’t want to do for reasons that I think are fairly obvious…This is being partially prompted by the fact that the one person left at my company that I’m friends with recently told me he’s job searching, and I don’t know what tf I’m going to do when he leaves….anyone have any advice at all (even if it’s just ‘you’re making to big a deal out of this, get over it?’)

    1. Technical_Kitty*

      Can you ask the guy next to you about fantasy sports? Maybe get him to run you trough how it works? You might not be interested in the fantasy sports side but it’s a good way to show interest in your co-workers if you want to be buddies.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Are you willing to participate in the fantasy league to get the invites? That is going to be the easiest way to break in to the group. Here’s the thing, you don’t have to actually care about the fantasy league part of the socialization, but just having a team will make you part of the group. I bet you could even get someone to ‘help you’ with the draft… and by help I mean do it for you. Then you just sit back and let your team do it’s thing. You might find you start getting into it (I’m not big into fantasy sports, but mildly enjoy them if I find myself drafted into a league)

      The next thing I’d try is the next time someone is talking to your work neighbor about an event, after they leave you could say “Hey Fantasy Frank, I overheard you talking to Football Phil about the drinks after work, do you have to be part of the league to be included in the invite?”

      1. CynicallySweet7*

        Maybe, and I have considered that. I’m not opposed to joining for the sake of it. My real hesitation there is that for the first couple of months I was there the fact that I didn’t like them was kind of a running joke which to be fair I went along with and played it up a little because it was a way to connect. And I’m afraid it’ll look like a huge reversal/be telling about my motivations. Which depending on who I go to I don’t think having my motives known is the end of the world just kind of embarrassing.

        And it would definitely be possible to ask “Frank” about that, but I’m kind of afraid he wouldn’t say no even if he wanted to. I’m not entirely sure he would want to say no, but my teams small (the dept isn’t, but my team is), and we rely on each other a lot. So I guess I’m concerned he’d say it’s ok whether it is or not. And I’ve read so many letters here about people trying to force a relationship with co-workers that I’m kind of gun shy there

        1. CynicallySweet7*

          Maybe one time wasn’t the right descriptor then…just realized that, sorry

        2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I wouldn’t let the fact that there was a running joke about them when you first started stop you from participating now.

          If anyone mentions it, just continue the joke :)

          Fantasy Phil: Wooboy, look it’s CynicallySweet7, what are you doing here, I thought you hated fantasy football
          CynicallySweet7: Yeah… well I just didn’t want to beat everyone so soon after starting… now that I’ve been here for awhile I figure it won’t be the new kid beating the old guys anymore.

          Fantasy Phil: Wooboy, look it’s CynicallySweet7, what are you doing here, I thought you hated fantasy football
          CynicallySweet7: Yeah yeah, I know my first love is fantasy beekeeping, but well with the season over because of the professional beekeepers strike, I thought I’d join you guys.

          Fantasy Phil: Wooboy, look it’s CynicallySweet7, what are you doing here, I thought you hated fantasy football
          CynicallySweet7: Oh well I didn’t really know a lot about it when I started, but now I get the daily reports from everyone talking to Fantasy Frank and I think I’ve got the hang of it now.

          1. CynicallySweet7*

            Thank you so much! Keeping the joke running is an excellent idea! And the one about daily updates is accurate (or it will be when I start paying attention to them)

      2. Thlayli*

        This is the easiest way to break into the clique. There’s a reason we have the cliche “if you can’t beat them, join them.”

  110. Bee's Knees*

    Hello, Internet Friends. I’m working on spiffing up my resume in anticipation of starting a job search soon, and need some help on how to word something that’s a pretty big aspect of my job. I think it’s currently listed on my resume as something like “liaises with local business owners to fulfill their customer’s needs,” which is super vague and unhelpful to anyone reading it. I’m not sure if I could just come right out and say what it is in my resume, or how to word it in ‘resume speak.’ What it is- I do the obituaries for a small newspaper. I get the obits from the funeral homes, edit them to make sure they fit with our style, edit any photos that come with them, work up the charges (spoiler, it’s a lot) and then do the layout for the page that they go on. I’m not really looking to apply for jobs in other newspapers, so I’m not sure how to spin these skills so they would transfer well.

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      This is just a starting point, and it’s assuming you have this listed under the newspaper:

      Coordinate with funeral homes to ensure obituaries are correctly (respectfully?) reported, including: formatting entries, editing photos, work up the changes…

      Just an idea, the coordinate part of that is best I think. I think you can say obituaries though. I’m getting the sense there’s hesitation there b/c of the morbidity (correct me if I’m wrong), but death is a part of life and there’s value to a well done obit page (my grandma used to keep cut-outs of her friends obits in a binder to remember them)

  111. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Working with a couple recruiters, and one of them wants to “rework” my resume. Ugh. Even better, she asked for my college GPA. I graduated over 10 years ago. I responded that I didn’t think my college GPA was relevant, as I wasn’t fresh out of college and had plenty of work experience.

    She also pulled a list of about 30 lines from other people’s resumes and told me to drop in whatever applied. Um, more than 2/3 of it is stuff that I’ve never done. And I told her that. There were a couple that I liked, and did make some updates to my resume, but most of the list I ignored.

    Plus, she wants me to put references on for work that I did in my first job out of college, never progressed past a low level (switched focus), haven’t done in YEARS…. No. It has no relevance. I’m seriously doubting her ability to put together a really good resume.

    1. Peachy*

      As Alison has mentioned before, there are some recruiters with some really terrible advice. These people unfortunately sound like they may fall in that category.

    2. CynicallySweet7*

      Yeah, you might be better off saying you’re comfortable with your resume how it is…and then bring a copy to interviews (just in case she changes stuff w/o you knowing)

    3. stej*

      This is why I’m super picky with recruiters. I’ve had too many cases where they simply waste my time and give terrible advice and are overarchingly bad.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        This is a fairly large group in my area, and I’ve been around long enough to know how the process works. Part of my problem is I’ve only been at current job for 6 months, so it doesn’t look good. luckily, I do actually hate the industry (didn’t know I did before!), and can convincingly state, with detailed reasons, exactly why I hate the industry. But still, it makes it harder.

  112. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I got a job!! It’ll be a bit of a commute but the pay makes up for it and the work and company sound way more interesting. It is a temporary position, starting for at least a month, but the company really trusted the recruiter I worked with and thinks I’ll be a great fit. HellContract happened quickly as well but I didn’t get the glowing recommendation and absolute trust. And that place… ugh.

    I’ll be doing teapot packaging production art in a specialization of the teapot design that I have been trying to get more work in for some time. It’s a dog-free office (I learned to ask) as the CEO is allergic as well and I’m really looking forward to it. The day I accepted I felt a little trepidation but I remember that some of my in-process interviews are just that and nothing is guaranteed. The commute gave me a little pause, but if I made it to HellContract for two months I can do this. I can’t wait! I start Tuesday.

  113. Marietta*

    I’m trying to fill a somewhat-hard-to-fill position. Our organization uses an online application system, and asks candidates whether they have ever applied here before. One candidate, who would have been one of the top candidates, responded no. But, when I open their application, the first thing I see in the system is their other applications (more than a dozen over the past year). On one hand, I can understand why this person may have felt it was better to try to hide that. On the other hand, now I’m in a situation where I know this person answered untruthfully. After speaking with HR here, I am going to proceed with a phone interview and try to find out more about why the person answered the way that they did.

    So, public service announcement – if applying online, it is very possible that the hiring manager can easily see all previous applications. [And yes, that really means that asking the question is redundant, but changing that is above my pay grade.]

    1. Morning Glory*

      It is possible the candidate misread the question as whether they had ever worked there before.

      1. Marietta*

        That’s actually a separate question in the application. But, yes, I will talk to the person.

  114. LaurenB*

    Office climate wars, the shoulder season edition… (And by shoulder season, I mean winter/spring. Oh, eastern Canada.)

    My co-worker and I work in very close quarters (reference desk of the library) so no cubicles to make space heaters a realistic possibility. We’ve talked to facilities and our options for climate control are 1) I’m comfortable in a blouse and sweater and he’s fanning himself in a t-shirt and 2) he’s comfortable in a t-shirt and my hands are numb and my nose is dripping when I’m wrapped in a large blanket wrap. It’s hard because he can’t take off any more clothes when I’m comfortable (and I’m asking for comfort when I’m wearing at least three layers on top – I’m not asking to wear shorts!). I also can’t put on much more when he’s comfortable – I’m sitting here wearing a giant blanket!

    I know this problem is pretty much unsolvable, I’m just venting because summer sucks. Also, if I had considered how tightly libraries are usually climate controlled for the sake of the books, I would seriously have gone into another field. :)

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Can you bring in a heated throw blanket? Those saved me in past really cold offices.

      1. Tara S.*

        +1 to the heated lap blanket, also I’ve found in the past that “ask forgiveness not permission” has worked with me just bringing in my own heater.

      2. LaurenB*

        I’ve actually tried a heated blanket but it just wasn’t practical because I spent so much time rearranging it every time I stood up and sat back down, which is pretty frequent in my job. Plus I’m still freezing when I’m not at my desk!

        1. BRR*

          I kind of feel ridiculous suggesting this but I don’t think I’ve seen it before on here, what about something like the under armor heat trapping gear that people wear during winter. Could you wear it under your business clothes?

    2. Bibliovore*

      I am you and can do nothing about the climate situation. Yes, this is typical in libraries. A blanket won’t work. My solution. Light warm layers. Costly but fabulous is merino wool. For the summer, keeping a supply at work. Change when I am going out into the real world. In my locker right now cardigan, leggings, wool socks, felt clogs, wrist/hand warmers and a cashmere shawl/scarf, polartec vest. We also have polartec jackets on hand.

  115. Natalie*

    Well, I described the technological state* of my company to a recruiter and they laughed out loud. So I guess I’ll just keep going with that to explain why I’m leaving a job so quickly.

    * the state of our records is equivalent to a library still using a paper card catalogue, for reference.

    1. Triplestep*

      Do you work where I do?

      For example, imagine a paper PO system at an organization with 5k employees. If I need a Purchase Order, I have to type up a PO Request form, print it out, and manually get signatures on it. (And typing is something I instituted when I got here – they used to be hand-written). Then I have to walk it across the street to Procurement, where they enter it into a system, print it, scan it, and e-mail it back to me. When it’s time to pay my vendor, I have to print the invoice, sign it, walk it to another building and put it in someone’s inbox.

      And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

      I am interviewing, but it never occurred to me to spell this out for people!

      1. Natalie*

        Maybe! It’s a big company.

        When I first started here I laughed that we were still carrying typewriters on our books as assets and just assumed the books needed to be cleaned up, and then I found out our admin still uses a typewriter to make labels. (She is not old enough to have started as a professional using a typewriter.) We’re big enough that we’re probably keeping one small ribbon company in business somewhere.

      2. Natalie*

        Oh, and I would spell it out for people, if its a significant part of how the job works. I’m in accounting, so not using modern accounting software to store our journals is a big difference from what I would expect day to day. But if this doesn’t impact the job you’re hiring for too much than it’s not as big of a deal.

  116. puzzld*

    We are a small group on an academic calendar, and most summers we have an opening, someone quits to go back to school, takes a different job, etc. This year we have 3 or maybe 4 openings and we aren’t getting many candidates. We had hoped to find some good applicants from one of the several large stores that have closed in recent months, we’ve lost our Sears, Toys /R Us, and a couple of local establishments. Our pay should be similar with better benis, but we aren’t reaching these people. Our job is on our website, at the local unemployment office and on their website, FaceBook, Glass Door, Indeed, etc., but we’d like to target some of these displace retail workers and we can’t find them. I’ve threatened to go to the mall and put flyers on the cars that park near the store that hasn’t closed yet…

    TLDR — how do you find good candidates?

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      2 tips here from when I was a teenager (I’m basing this on where you think people would be coming from) 1. A big sign, bright color saying now hiring. I wasn’t the best worker when I was in retail, but I always had job and about half the time it was because I saw a sign, made a note and came back for an application later. 2. Craigslist, it can be sketchy, but for some jobs a good bet tho. Also, it might help to have someone who’s the target demo take a look at the postings on the job site, and see if they have any feedback for you (pref. someone who doesn’t work there)

  117. AnonGirl For Now*

    Just a rant w/o my usual user name.

    I’ve taken over my manager’s responsibilities who has transitiones into another position in the parent company. She still mentors me but I do what she used to do as the Manager of our function, plus I have new responsibilities by the GM’s request. I’m the whole department now, getting a student intern soon.
    Aaaand the GM uses me as his PA for his presentations. I provide data, prepare the marketing slides, which is my task as per the definition of what my job is … and I have to prepare his slides so he only fills the boxes because he cannot use any of the software.
    The parent company’s top management is against having PAs so this falls on the youngest in the org, and that is me. Even though it has nothing to do with my responsibilities.
    Argh.

  118. LinuxElizabeth*

    HELP! I’ve been here so long, I don’t know what is normal.
    I’m a computer programmer, and I am a Lead to two other programmers, and we all share the same office.

    I’m *very* introverted, and very task/result oriented. My perfect day at work is putting in some headphones, and writing code for 7 hours. I’ve been working at being more social with my coworkers, and with others outside our department. I don’t want to be rude or a snob, and I do enjoy working on projects with others, and learning from each other, etc…

    My problem is the programmers I share an office with like to chat. To me it seems like too much, but I honestly don’t know any more. Every day they want to tell me about something going on in their life, whether it is a new project, a new problem, a new movie, a new whatever. They chat about a lot of things, usually “life” stuff, and usually drama, at least a few times a day. And with visual aids (cell phone pics).
    I try to be nice, and either listen or half-listen. I’ll sometimes continue *trying* to work, while giving them some eye contact, and nodding and saying things like “interesting” or “that sounds like fun”. I rarely ask follow-up questions because I know they could go on forever.
    After six years though, my patience is running thin. If it was a sometimes, or once a week occurrence, I would probably be okay. But it is EVERY day. The only people I want to talk to about their day are my friends, and my wife.

    I’m looking for another job now, but I’m concerned that this is all me. Am I just going to find a similar situation in my next job? Do people typically give life updates to their coworkers on the daily?! Is there a way I can deal, without being a jerk?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      It sounds like you haven’t talked to your coworkers yet? I think you could name the problem here. “I’m sorry guys, I don’t like to chat much during the day, and I have a lot to get done. I’m just going to put in my headphones and get through what I can,” and then do it. Nobody’s doing anything wrong here, you can set a boundary and enforce it.

    2. BuffaLove*

      I think you’ve got to be willing to endure a little friendly chitchat now and then. It’s totally fine to politely excuse yourself if you’re busy or if the conversation has been dragging on a little too long. I’m exactly like you, and I get by by participating in the occasional lunch walk or happy hour, and I try to give people a few minutes in the morning to chat about TV or their weekend or whatever. It does help when you have stuff in common.

      I do think these people are a little clueless if they’ve been at it for six years without getting the hint – if they’re that self-centered to blather on while you’re still working(!), that’s probably part of the problem. Your next job might have people who you actually want to chat with, who knows.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, you probably should flex a little more here. There are not many jobs where you can go all day without speaking to people. And in fairness, I should say that many jobs do expect us to have basic working relationships with those around us. Since you are in a supervisory position that increases the importance here. Supervisors have more responsibility to build relationships with people.
        Honestly, if my supervisor put her headphones on everyday and basically just worked, I would probably end up leaving the job.

  119. Stained Glass Cannon*

    This happened last week and I’m still boggling at the thought processes of my former supervisor.

    I left a pretty toxic job a few months ago after being “managed out” – over half a year the supervisor cancelled my KPIs and my annual review, took away most of my work and gave it to her favourites, then finally announced that my benefits would be stripped and salary halved because I wasn’t performing. I quit on the spot and got another offer the following week. After that I stayed in touch with some colleagues, and heard that all the part-timers and mid/low-level staff were leaving because the pay was bad and they had been running into the same problem of supervisor hoarding assignments and promotions for her favourites.

    Well, on the day the very last of that group left, ex-supervisor called me and said the big boss really missed my work and was hoping I would come back and pick up where I left off. Since I’m already well settled into the new job, I declined…only to be bombarded with messages and emails insisting that I must come back and they really appreciated what I had done for them previously. No offer to reinstate my previous pay and benefits, though. I ended up blocking ex-supervisor and a number of former colleagues, and I haven’t quite finished facepalming yet.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh my goodness. Well it does sound like a great revenge fantasy come to life! If it were me, I’d go to this person’s supervisor and send an email (maybe forward an email you’ve received) and say, “I would never return to x company because my benefits and salary were cut, I did not feel that I was treated well, and I am much happier at my current job. Please ask (supervisor) to stop following up with me.”

  120. SDSmith82*

    Today my office closes early. We are lucky enough to work 7.75 hours days- and so with us allowing people to leave 2 hours early- (and start times that all vary) most of us would work 5.75 straight and skip lunches- Then there’s the new Exempt employee (AKA ME) who just got the short straw and has to take a lunch and still get off early- but not at 1:30- instead I still have to take a lunch and get off at 3.

    Why- because I asked permission instead of just hoping for forgiveness and not being noticed. Lesson learned- next year- use hopefully earned perks and “work” from home instead- like all other exempt employees are doing.

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      So the probable reason ur boss is saying that is bc of either a law or company policy (unless they’re normally unreasonable). I would look up state laws and breaks in the employee handbook. Then go back to ur manager and say something like, I understand that the state of xa requires x mins for a break for Y number of hours worked, would it be possible for me to just take that x amt of time for lunch and leave at c:o time? So u won’t be able to leave the same time as the others but still earlier than before… Then next summer do as u will. I’d be careful about working from home tho. I’m a big fan but esp if ur new you want to make sure ur def working (like maybe be a little extra responsive in email). I’ve seen plenty of people have that revoked bc they don’t do anything in those days (also u don’t want to get a reputation for not being responsive when wfh, it’s just not great in the long run)

      1. SDSmith82*

        My actual manager is on vacation in Europe. It’s a pick my battles thing- and it wasn’t worth it on this one- I’m not “new” (been here about a year) but I was just recently promoted and switched from hourly to salary- usually it works in my favor- this is one time it doesn’t. I haven’t earned full WFH rights yet- which is why I let this one slide. I can take one for the team so to speak-

  121. Princess Daisy*

    Is it ever okay to back out of an interview that a personal connection got you the “in” on?

    I’m job searching, and casually mentioned to my pastor this past Sunday that if he hears of anything to please let me know. On Wednesday, he contacted me telling me that another member at our church, Bryan (who I have spoken to a handful of times) had an open position that I may be interested in. Bryan and I set up an informational phone call Wednesday night, just for him to tell me more about the position. It sounded like something I would like, so I sent him my resume per his request. After our call, I realized I hadn’t asked what his company’s name was, so I looked up his company name on Facebook (we were already friends). I saw that he worked for Company Y, and mapped it from my apartment. 15 minute drive, not bad at all.

    Now, I told him on our initial phone call that I wouldn’t be available to interview until June 7th (I’ll be on vacation from today through the 6th), and understood if it didn’t work out. He said that would be fine. However, he emailed me yesterday asking if there was any way I could interview earlier, because they’d “just interviewed two candidates.” I reminded him again that I would be on vacation and was unable to interview before the 7th. He emailed me later in the day saying that the 7th would work, and sent me a calendar invite, CC’ing several individuals (presumably his bosses/the interviewers).

    However, when I received the invite, the subject line was “Interview with Company Z on 6/7”. As mentioned, I was under the impression that he worked at Company Y, 15 minutes from home. I mapped Company Z, and it’s a 40 minute drive from my apartment (and that’s without traffic!) I didn’t even think that his Facebook might not be updated with his current company, as the company listed on his Facebook was in the same (somewhat unique) field as the job he’d told me about. With that being said, I can’t imagine a situation where I would accept this job if offered to me because of the long commute (I know that some people are okay with long drives, but it’s very, very unusual in my area to drive more than 20 or 30 minutes to work). I’d have to leave my apartment at the same time as I do for my current job (a 10-15 minute drive), and get home at least an hour later. Is it okay to back out of the interview now? I feel bad because A. Bryan personally got me this interview, and B. They are waiting two weeks to interview me when they’ve already interviewed other candidates, because of my vacation.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!

    1. Lumen*

      I think you can reach back out and just explain that you had the wrong location for the company (your choice if you want to mention the Facebook address in case they do need to update) and that the commute would be farther than you’re comfortable with. Make sure to include that you sincerely appreciate how flexible/patient they were about interviewing, but that due to the misunderstanding, you realized this wouldn’t actually be a good fit. They should hopefully understand – and if they’re grumpy about it, that really isn’t your problem.

      However, if you think they might get grumpy, complain to Bryan, and that would impact your relationship with Bryan, you can also send a quick note to Bryan thanking him for making the connection, but as it turns out, the work location would be too far for you to commute, and to please keep sending you information on jobs if he can.

      This is pretty normal professionally speaking – sometimes new information comes out (whether in the interview or before the interview) that makes it clear that a job wouldn’t be a good fit. That doesn’t make anyone involved wrong or bad or careless. Honestly it would be more disrespectful to go to the interview and waste their (and your!) time when you know you don’t want the job.

    2. CynicallySweet7*

      My suggestions going to be fairly in line with Lumen’s but with some tweaks. I wouldn’t mention the facebook mis-hap to the company. But you can absolutely say something to the effect of ‘I’ve thought the commute through more, and have realized that it wouldn’t work for me and I didn’t want to waste your time esp considering the other candidates..thank you for your understanding about the interview ect.’ This way it doesn’t look like you didn’t do your due diligence and Bryan doesn’t get in trouble for anything. Which if you explain the fbook thing he could, not for not updating it, but for not letting you know what the company is (you prob should’ve asked, but no judge it happens, but he def should have made sure you knew who the company was so you could check up on them). I would also give Bryan a heads up pretty immediately, it kind of looks like he went to bat a bit for you (even if he didn’t it’s the polite thing to do). I think as long as your tone is friendly it would be a kindness to give him a heads up about the facebook thing, esp if he’s involved in hiring (even if he’s not it prob wouldn’t hurt).

  122. Just an Anonymous Desk*

    Y’all. Storytime.

    Two weeks ago, our department was told we’d be moving desks. Tuesday, they released the new layout and asked us to all move by the end of the week. No big deal: our setups don’t take very long to move, and IT is available to help us. We’d need to coordinate with each other (the person moving into our old desk and the person moving out of our new one, for example), but that was really just about timing. This was planned pretty carefully, from everything I can tell.

    Two weeks ago, a pair of supervisors in my department (Rose and Mary) griped and complained, but because most of us were unconcerned, their angst wasn’t fed, so it mostly died down. But on Tuesday, they started at “ugh, this makes no sense, this sucks” and escalated over the next five hours into borderline panic.

    It was ridiculous. They are supervisors, and they kept trying to get their direct reports to join in on the (truly disproportionate) stress fest. Meanwhile, some of us were sending them questions about our actual work, and waiting for hours to even be acknowledged. It was absurd, and it was actually pretty unprofessional, especially since they manage people.

    Near the apex of their meltdown, Rose and Mary decided to move Jane’s desk for her. See, Jane is the director of our entire department. Jane reports directly to the C-suite. But Jane is out of the country for a few weeks. Instead of coordinating their own moves, Rose and Mary panicked about the logistics of everyone ELSE’s moves (I had to tell my boss, Mary, three times that I had already worked mine out), and decided to start with their boss’s desk. I’m serious: they packed up her desk and all her personal items before even coordinating their own moves.

    But here’s the kicker: Jane is a smart cookie. Jane had already seen the map. Jane had talked to the C-suite. Jane had coordinated with the people whose moves would be affected. Jane had already put a plan in place. Jane did NOT include Rose and Mary in that plan because Rose and Mary weren’t affected by it or needed to be involved whatsoever. And unfortunately, no one who knew the plan was there to tell Rose and Mary to stop packing up Jane’s desk or touching all of Jane’s personal items.

    And now we all wait a couple of weeks for Jane to come back. :)

    1. Susan Sto Helit*

      Fun.

      When my office does desk moves everyone is just issued with as many crates as they need and told to pack up their desk and drawers, label their chairs etc, before they leave at the end of the day. Then the facilities team move everything overnight and your crates are waiting for you to unpack again the next morning.

      It is not stressful. The only bit I was worried about was my plants, and I dealt with that by moving them myself right before I went home.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Oh, please, please, please give us an update. I really want to know how Jane handled this.

  123. alana*

    I’m in a bit of a funk and would appreciate some advice. I’ve always done my best work, and been my most motivated, when I feel like I’m being challenged and given autonomy — tight on ends, loose on means, etc.

    About six months ago, I was promoted to leading a team and also changed managers. My manager is, in many ways, really great — she’s extremely reliable about 1:1 meetings and is great at helping me work through situations I haven’t encountered before. But she is much more a “let’s take baby steps together” than a “I’m going to set a high goal and let you figure out how to achieve it” manager — she wants to talk through every decision I make about my team, large or small, and she definitely wants the outcome of those conversations to be that I do it her way. She sees this as being supportive, since I’m new, but I’m getting burned out and discouraged because I feel like I don’t have any real control over my team’s direction. It feels like I come up with an idea or plan, she tells me why it isn’t a good idea, and then we do what she wants instead. I’m constantly telling colleagues and even my direct reports “Let me get back to you on this after I check with [manager].”

    Maybe this is just the reality of being a junior middle manager and I need to suck it up, or maybe I just need to try making some of these decisions and presenting them as decisions rather than requests for advice/feedback. I’d appreciate any advice on how I can ask for a longer leash, or anything that might help me shift my perspective from being irritated with this.

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      This is going to depend on a lot of things! One is have you tried talking to her bout this? Either in the moment, or as an over arching convo about the pattern your seeing? If not that’s where I’d start. Maybe start with how much you appreciate how available she is for help and that you appreciate it.. Ect… But that you’ve traditionally done better with a little more autonomy. Before you have this conversation tho I’d come up with a realistic picture of how that would work like bc if she’s good she’ll likely want to know that. N it’s unlikely she’ll be ok totally cutting u loose so I’d keep that in mind.

      If ur not comfy with that tho u could always have a smaller convo about a couple of topics you feel like ur capable of making decisions about yourself. I say this with a caveat though, bc if u think she’s likely to come back with, at least for a little while run everything by me; then I wouldn’t necessairly suggest doing this until u think the answer is likely to be different.

      I can’t tell from ur letter if this would be accurate but if it is you could bring up that constantly having to check with her about everything is undermining ur own authority with ur own team, but I would only do this is ur sure about ur tone and as a part of a larger conversation, not as the main topic… Hope I helped!

  124. Short & Stout*

    I recently got a call from my old boss asking me to come back for my summer job in a higher position! I’m super excited, because I think it’ll get me back on the track I want to be in (teapot development as opposed to teapot schematics, which I’m currently doing). The only issue is I would have to leave the current placement I’m at seven days early to make that promotion work. Does my commitment to stay out this other internship placement trump me doing what’s good for me and my career?

    1. That Awful Paperclip*

      How long is the internship itself, and are you sure you have to start exactly a week before? I’d think even a few days or two would probably help soften the blow slightly, if nothing else…

    2. Triplestep*

      Have you explained to your old/future boss that you’d be leaving your current job before the time you’d committed to? If not, I would explain it – Boss may be understanding about it, and actually respect that fact that you want to honor your commitments.

      There’s not a lot of info here, but I’m not sure that leaving early is what is best for you and your career. You risk burning a bridge with your current employer (isn’t the point of internships to gain experience and references?) and if your old/future boss knows that you’re not honoring your commitment, you risk going down a notch in his estimation, too.

      1. Short & Stout*

        A couple of additional pieces of information:

        1. This internship has been a year long (sort of like a post-grad co-op). The last three weeks of the placement are built in buffer for wrap up work.
        2. The incoming boss knows this – I’d already be starting a week late even if I leave the co-op a week and a half early.
        3. My plan at the moment, if I go the path of leaving early, is to offer to volunteer for my current boss. It’s a sector where volunteering is allowed, so I think there’s potential there. My current boss is gone for the long weekend though, so I can’t run it by them yet.

  125. librarylady*

    Hi! Any book recommendations for new managers? I’ve managed a very small staff before, but with very little support and guidance. I’m about to start a job that I’m really excited about, but it comes with increased management responsibilities and I want to make sure I go into it as prepared as I can be. I don’t know where to start!

    (Looking for reading beyond Alison’s book and this blog, which are always immensely helpful)

    1. OtterB*

      This is more big-picture than nuts-and-bolts, but I really liked What Management Is by Joan Magretta.

  127. V*

    I will be resigning from my current, much-beloved job after the holiday due to military relocation. I’ve known about this for months but have waited, and I’ll be giving roughly a month’s notice, which will hopefully be enough. I am incredibly nervous about it as I don’t quite have anything lined up just yet. I do have several irons in the fire, though, and have a phone interview later today. Here’s to hoping that any one of them pan out by the time I land at the new duty station. Fortunately, this should be one of the last times I have to do this. I’m ready to plant roots and settle in.

    1. Triplestep*

      I’m sorry, and wishing you luck for delivering the news. I have only left jobs I disliked, so never considered how hard it would be to give notice at one that I actually liked!

  128. Lapsang Lishan*

    Urgh, I’m having a lot of conflicting thoughts about my future and I don’t know what to do with them, so here goes nothing. I’m in my mid-20s, live outside the US, and I basically have no documented work history. I’ve ‘survived’ financially through varying amounts of help from my parents, as well studying at university and getting financial aid for the majority of my expenses, and I am on the verge of finally getting my Bachelor’s degree, probably at the latest by September. However, my degree is going to mean jack around here because there are no jobs in my area, and I can’t afford to move right now. I was planning to do a Master’s, which would give my partner time to finish his degree and for us to move to the area we want to live in (which does have jobs for me, especially a Me with a Master’s), but my degree is processing so slowly right now that I might miss the final deadline and have to wait another year to start.

    Now I’m kind of panicking and realizing that I could have another year of financial uncertainty, so I looked into it and found out that there is a trade in my area offering paid apprenticeships. They’re really hurting for skilled people in this particular trade, and there are a ton of jobs in my current area, many of which will give you work while you’re still apprenticing. I never thought to consider a trade because my whole family are huge believers in the value of a university education, but I am so tired of trying to scrape pennies together and asking other people for help. I am seriously considering holding off on the Master’s for a year, doing the apprenticeship instead, working during it to make money, and then working in that field while doing the Master’s/job-hunting in my dream field. The trade and my dream field have nothing to do with each other, but at this point I don’t even know if I care, because at least then I’ll have some kind of work history and financial independence. My family will care a lot about this, because they’re afraid I’m going to settle for what’s convenient instead of what’s right for me and that I’ll never work in my dream field.

    I guess I’m just looking for advice on whether or not they’re right to be skeptical about my idea of doing a trade as a back-up career, or if it’s actually a good idea because I’ll end up financially independent sooner. Any thoughts are appreciated.

    1. Ali G*

      I think it sounds like fun! And you can sell it to your family that this will help you not have to rely on them for money in the future as you work towards your main goal. If you think this trade is something you will like/be good at, I think it’s a win-win. Plus, in the future when you have your dream job, maybe it would be a good hobby?

      1. Lapsang Lishan*

        The trade is definitely connected to an interest of mine, so your points there are really good… The work of this trade is pretty physically demanding and the environment can be very stressful (though it varies a lot by what kind of environment you work in) but I think I will like at least some aspects of it.

        I think the biggest issue is that they’re worried I’m getting old and I’m going to wait too long to start in my dream field because I’ve already had some ups and downs trying to finish my Bachelor’s… again, I’m in my mid-20s. I guess they’re just worried because I’ve struggled so much that they’re afraid I’ll waste another year or more of my life not working towards ‘my dream career’?

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I don’t think a year of apprenticing is a year wasted, it doesn’t sound like you have a lot of documented work history, and I think this is going to be valuable for you to have when you start interviewing for your career job. That and worst case scenario is that you find out you love the trade and stay there without further education debt.

          1. Lapsang Lishan*

            I do worry about the idea that my trades experience won’t be viewed the same way if I go back to an office environment, however. Which is to say, maybe they’ll see my trades experience and think I don’t know professional office norms. White collar vs blue collar and such.

              1. Ali G*

                First, you are not “old.” I am turning 40 this year and changing careers. You have SO much time. Also, having a few years of consistent work experience on your resume in a specific trade is WAY better than job hopping to just make cash. You are showing commitment future employers will appreciate.

    2. Thlayli*

      Apprenticeships don’t tend to pay that well, so make sure you’re going into it with your eyes open.

      That said, once you finish your apprenticeship you will be doing well – tradesmen are printing money these days in the latest boom.

      1. Lapsang Lishan*

        Yeah, the apprenticeship I’m looking at is a liveable wage for the time being, with a typical salary equal to roughly the national average salary once you finish your training. I know there are people in this trade who go into business for themselves and make a ton of money, but I have a serious lack of entrepreneurial spirit so idk if that’s for me.

    3. Reba*

      I’d say go for it, or at least look into it further!

      Fwiw I know quite a few people now working in arts fields who previously worked in construction and carpentry, before or between their specialist degrees. Those probably aren’t exactly analogous to what you’re looking at, but just to say that starting an apprenticeship or job now doesn’t mean signing on to do that thing forever.

      From my own experience I’ll just add that getting financially stable is highly recommended. :)

  129. LibbyG*

    A question for folks who REALLY struggle to finish things, especially written things. I’m a college professor and I’m often very lenient with deadlines (when I can be). Most of the time, students with health challenges or especially acute personal issues are grateful for having a few more days to get all their work done. But I always have a few students who struggle mightily either to write (even about things they’re interested in) or to submit what they’ve written. And I’ve sometimes gotten the impression that some of these students would be better off if I just (encouragingly) held them to the deadline.

    I’d love to hear from folks with similar struggles about their experiences with relatively flexible deadlines in a school or work context; the ways in which they help or or perhaps interfere with meeting the challenge. I imagine experiences vary a lot.

    1. alanna granger*

      I work in media, so I deal with deadlines and timeliness constantly.

      I think there are basically two kinds of people: Those who march in an orderly way through the tasks on their list, are good at figuring out when something is done/it’s time to move on, and can juggle multiple responsibilities. Those people likely appreciate flexible deadlines, because if something isn’t getting done on time, there’s likely a good reason. I am in awe of those people.

      The other type are much less linear. They can fall down a rabbit hole researching something they’re interested in and get overwhelmed. Or they procrastinate and can’t ever start writing. Or they’re wildly optimistic about how long something will take them. Or they do projects first that seem more urgent. I am this person. (I also have ADHD.) If I don’t have a deadline, it will not ever get done.

      Flexible deadlines are the worst thing you can do for the second type of people; they do not set them up to succeed. Give them a hard deadline, and help them figure out the process that will help them meet it. In a classroom setting that’s going to have a mix of both types, I’d say: hard deadlines, but a generous flexibility policy for students with health or personal challenges.

    2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      So, I recently took a college class (this was my first time back to school since graduating with my BS in 2014), and the professor was really flexible with deadlines. I was so grateful for this–especially in regards to my final paper–because I hadn’t written in a paper in 4 years, and despite being a decent writer, I was struggling a bit. I turned in my paper 2 days after the due date, and I only received a small ding for not being on time. (It is worth noting that all of my other assignments had been turned in on time–I was just having a really hard time with my paper.) I found my professor’s flexibility to be extremely helpful, but I can also understand that there might be situations where it would be better to make a student stick to the deadline. I feel like at some point, a person just has to figure out how to get things completed by the due date–whether that involves practicing their writing skills, starting earlier, asking for help when needed, etc.

    3. Reba*

      My context for this is similar to yours. When I’ve taught I have always accepted late assignments but had a system for docking the grade for each late day. People who came and talked to me with legit problems could get grace periods, and I’m always clear that I’m open to that and we can talk when whatever crisis is over. Procrastination is not an emergency. There were always students who tried to press their luck/weasel around this policy, but it worked for me. It’s not reasonable for the instructor to know about and manage all the students’ individual schedules, lives, and emotional issues around assignments, honestly. I think your sense of deadlines as actually helpful tools, and leniency as enabling (not sure if that’s the right word), is right. OTOH it’s good to keep the perspective that it’s a college paper, not saving babies or something, so there’s no call to be rigid for its own sake.

      For myself as a writer, consequences and deadlines are pretty essential for me to actually Do The Thing. There are not a few abandoned projects–or things that I got a version in by deadline but would have liked to revise/improve–in my rearview mirror, because “get it done when you can” turns into never. So I appreciate it more when deadlines are real rather than suggestions, and I’ve reflected that in the class policies.

    4. only acting normal*

      Learning to meet a deadline, or learning to submit the 70% solution on time vs the 100% solution too late, are valuable lessons (I wish some of my colleagues could learn them).
      Stick to defined deadlines (with allowances for reasonable adjustments or exceptional circumstances).
      As far as procrastination I need a deadline or it doesn’t get done at all*, but I’m exceptionally good at meeting deadlines.
      * Hobby wise I made a ballgown in a few weekends for an event, but have spent 6 months failing to hem a skirt for work.

  130. Environmental Compliance*

    Little bit of a vent.

    For some reason that no one can clarify, since this hasn’t been required since the facility opened in the 80’s, and with multiple OSHA inspections/audits/whatever they are, my facility now requires all of us to wear fire-retardant clothing. I am out on the plant 2x a week for roughly 2 hours total each. I requested coveralls. Nope, not a thing. I am a relatively small woman. Also requested woman-shaped clothing. Nope, can’t do that. So now I have an XS men’s shirt with the sleeves still 5″ too long and the torso a good 14″ too long (to the point where I can’t tuck it in because it bunches up my ass), and pants that actually fit decently since those were based on waist and inseam. Also, they’re navy flippin’ blue. The facility is mostly outdoors. It’s summer. FR clothing is heavy. Who the hell thought putting all staff in a dark color was a good idea, especially when access to water is limited because of the manufacturing process? Seriously?

    I’m pretty sure this was the brainchild of our slightly less new than me safety manager who seems to need to have a project that makes him all shiny awesome (instead of filing the paperwork where he’s supposed to, or showing up on time, or not being on his phone constantly).

    Also, I’m on the management team as well – I’ve been stopped and asked by at least 4 plant workers who were all relatively shocked that “they” have put Management in the “blue suits” too. Safety applies to everyone, no?

    Part of my irritation too is that certain areas of the facility have fire potential. Certain areas do not. I think it would have made more sense to better label/signage those riskier places and require PPE where PPE is needed. It feels very odd to me that the lab staff, who do sampling where I do sampling, are not required to wear a full FR suit and instead can just wear a to-the-waist lab jacket.

    1. T3k*

      I don’t know if your job has this, but in my school’s major, we worked with a lot of machinery with moving parts and the professors really drilled into us OSHA regulations and what we could and couldn’t wear. Part of that was you couldn’t have loose-fitting clothes because the loose fabric could get caught in the machine (same reason hair had to be tied up, no bracelets, necklaces tucked in or taken off, etc.). If your job has any of these risks, you might have enough standing to point this out to the safety manager and cite that it’s an OSHA regulation to not have excessively loose clothes.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        We have a select few machines, but they’re all contained (i.e., we have a hammer mill that is automated – corn goes in, meal comes out, the only control or involvement is someone pushing a button at a computer terminal across the building). 90% of us don’t even work by any moving machinery. I actually don’t even go by any of the machinery, I take water samples out of the storm/waste water ponds.

        I did find one of the other managers and vented a wee bit and he said he’d see what he could have happen, as I’d already talked to Mr Safety Guy and he just shrugged at me (which is his response to most anything). I’ve offered to pay for tailoring costs at this point, but was told that wasn’t a Thing That Could Be Done.

        I’m thinking double sided tape to tape up the long parts back into the chest of the shirt, so at least it’d be stuck to itself and able to be flattened, I’d just have to deal with even more heat from a double-layered heavy already shirt. The shirt itself isn’t too baggy, but it’s just way, way too long. My choices seem to be either excessively long, but fitted enough so that it’s not a circus tent but then I have no space for all the length, OR excessively long but baggy as a circus tent so that I can tuck all the extra length in. Neither one is all that comfortable nor really conforming to actual safety regulations.

        1. owlie*

          I’m shocked about the tailoring thing. Do they expect that you’ll return it in pristine condition so another person can use it? Gah!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            The best part is that they’re all embroidered with my name. Literally no one else can use them! I can’t take them home, because the company we got them through has to clean them.

        2. ..Kat..*

          You can tailor the shirt. You just need thread that is the same fiber as the shirt. For example, I did some tailoring of a Kevlar fire resistant shirt using Kevlar thread. Just don’t make it too form fitting or obvious.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I didn’t think it’d wreck the integrity of the FR qualities, but I’m not allowed to take any of them outside the facility. (They’d probably also notice losing 14″ of fabric, and of course they put all the scan ID tags on the bottom of the shirt, so I’d have to figure out how to reattach glued-on plastic).

            The dumb thing is definitely that I can fix the issue at home. Both grandmas were professional seamstresses. I can shorten the shirt so, so easily. But for “reasons” no one’s allowed to alter anything. For “reasons” it’s preferred to shove the women into things that do not fit. I could totally understand if this would ruin the fabric’s intended purpose (like watertightness or something), but this is an easy fix, and I’m not asking for thousands of dollars of anything.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        They also forgot to put any racks in the women’s locker room, since there’s only 3 of us, so all of it’s just on the floor right now. So that’s cool, I guess. There’s also no curtains on the showers, and they’re all filled with boxes of toilet paper or paper towels or dish or hand soap.

        I feel silly protesting a safety measure, because I do want everyone to be safe. We make a flammable liquid. Totally understandable. But…it’s really not coming across as consistent or well thought out.

    3. only acting normal*

      Who are you making the requests too? If it’s someone internal who is fobbing you off, try asking the supplier direct.
      (Ask me how I know. *eyeroll*)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The guy who set this whole thing up – safety manager. But the guy who did the fitting (LOL, he handed me a men’s large and looked confused when I said it wouldn’t work) also didn’t seem that interested in investigating any women’s sizes.

  131. Downwardly Mobile*

    I am actively pursuing roles that are a step down (or more) from my current level of responsibility. I am 55 years old and find myself in a situation where my skillset is so specialized, if I want to continue to work in it, I have commutes of an hour or more. I am at a point in life where I can consider quality of life over salary (done helping kids through college expenses) and long story short, I have an interview next week for a role 10 minutes from my home.

    The job post seems to indicate that only a portion of my skills would be utilized, which is OK with me. However, while surfing the ‘net to try to study up on this role, I found another job posting for it that indicates it is “entry level” and non-exempt. I would not have applied if I knew this, but I also don’t want to withdraw. My resume goes back 12 years (even though I have more, which is outlined on my Linkedin) but now I’m curious why they want to meet me.

    My question: At what point do I bring up the fact that I would not want a non-exempt role? Do I ask if it even is one? (The job postings conflict) To explain, I’ve had this happen to me before: I get hired by a team that knows they need my particular skills, but in reality they don’t quite understand what I do. I take on more and more, but my pay and job grade remain the same. Likewise, I suspect this employer has not considered how autonomous this person will need to be; I cannot consider this job if I am going to have to punch a time clock and ask to work overtime to do what *I know* are the basics of the role (although they may not know what those are). But they should know the role requires someone to make decisions that impact other people, have not-insignificant financial costs associated with them, and reports to an Executive Director. I cannot see myself explaining to her why I badged out five minutes early, or stayed an hour late.

    I thought the worst thing about this job was that it has the word “Coordinator” in the title (I am a Project Manager now). But not having the freedom to work as many hours as I’d like, or have to ask someone to take a long lunch rubs me the wrong way. Before my current job (which requires that I clock in even though I am exempt – yes, really) it had been 25 years since I punched a time clock. Here the overtime is watched very carefully, so I see non-exempt people waiting by the time clock every day so they don’t punch in too early. Our admin used to have to ask to stay late, and people I work with on projects have to badge out promptly or risk hearing from their managers that they incurred overtime. I don’t want that to be me.

    I know the answer is probably that this may not be the right job for me. This non-exempt issue – combined with my fear that they are under-valuing the job due to lack of knowledge about what someone with my skills actually does – has me wondering if I should just withdraw, or if I should try to find out why they invited me to interview. In my fantasies, they are trying to decide if having a more experienced person would make it worth re-thinking what the job and pay should be. (It really would be a cool job in a great place.)

    For what it’s worth, there was no phone screen and salary is unknown. I’m going directly to panel interview.

    1. H.C.*

      I think these are questions/concerns you can bring up during the interview – it’s as much a process of you interviewing them to see if this is a good fit for you.

      Alternatively, you can call the employer’s HR to ask if that opening’s exempt or not; that question is general enough that they should be able to let you know right away.

    2. Ali G*

      I think it’s worth going to the interview and asking them how it works. I am working at a place right now where some of the admin staff are hourly and some are salaried. The hourly workers are not policed. No one “clocks” in or out. They just submit a timesheet to HR every 2 weeks to get paid. If they need to leave for an appointment, they go and either make up the lost time or not. They do need to get overtime approved, but it’s rare for them anyway.
      So go and ask them all the questions you need to decide if the position is right for you or not. You have nothing to lose!

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I am interviewing candidates for a position that is new, and since the office is also new, it could be tailored to the person who gets it, so that is one possibility for why they want to interview you. Or, they’ve evolved what they’re looking for after talking to some entry level candidates.

      Honestly, all the candidates I have interviewed are in a similar position to you, and it is scaring the crap out of me. I too am a PM, and am specialized in my industry. I am 40, and the candidates are 50-60, and are applying to take my role, which I am filling temporarily because I don’t want a permanent relo. One guy was a VP at a large competitor and was making $200k plus bonuses. I make a lot less than that! He was actually the best candidate–the others’ experience was more on our customers’ side than what we do. When hiring, it’s hard to know what to do with that person. Do they just want a job, at any salary and responsibility level? Or, like you, where do they draw a line?

  132. Imaginary Number*

    What’s a reasonable timeline for a company to fix accessibility issues?

    I recently injured my ankle bad enough to put me on crutches for several days. I work in a secure area on the second floor. There are no bathrooms up there. The secure area has its own elevator but it’s been broken for several months. The only alternative is a freight elevator which is on the other side of the building and requires someone from security to ride it up from the bottom floor. I ended up just using the stairs because waiting for security and then hopping to the other side of the building (and then hopping back just to get to the bathroom) took more effort.

    I’m fortunate in that my injury was temporary and I was able to maneuver the stairs. But I have two coworkers who have no choice but to use the freight elevator, and their disabilities are permanent. While someone will always help them with the freight elevator when needed, it’s a huge undertaking that can take 10-15 min.

    Working out of another area is not an option without completely changing jobs.

    The elevator is so old that they’ve decided not to fix it and instead are in the process of having it replaced. But they don’t even have a contract yet and who knows how long construction could take.

    1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

      I don’t know about legally but if I had employees who could only get out of the building in an emergency by taking a freight elevator all the way on the other side of the floor I would fix that as soon as humanly possible. That’s dangerous and my guess is if someone filed a complaint with a local department of buildings (idk if that’s possible where you are) the fines would be levied pretty quick.

  133. Britt*

    I work in an old building with a cramped office set up. My desk/computer is only about 10 ft away from the bathroom. Well, today that bathroom toilet overflowed with sewage. Thankfully my manager let me take a few hours away because I was struggling with having a sensitive sense of smell and being a little germaphobic. It’s so disgusting!!

    My question is that… as far as I know my employer isn’t having a professional service come out to take care of this…. they have a “maintenance” team but they are rather lazy and slow to respond. Do I have anywhere to stand on getting this cleaned the right way? The thought of going back to sit at that office where the air was exposed to sewage particles is just unsettling…… :(

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, Britt, that’s not pleasant even for the non-germaphobic.

      In my experience, which includes several sewage backups, maintenance is the appropriate professional service, and they’ll clean it as right as anybody else (I can’t speak to the time frame in your particular building, of course). It’s generally a straightforward clean and surface bleaching.

      1. Britt*

        Thank you, fposte! It’s good to know it’s a reasonable concern. My manager is very level headed and fair, I trust his reasoning and he said the current maintenance staff, a team of 2, are conducting work that is very dissatisfactory to say the least. Which leaves me a little concerned on how well they will clean up! We’ve had a rat problem for 2 years in a building and it’s been a struggle to get a professional service out to take care of it! My poor manager has been trying so hard to get these issues resolved with his hands tied

  134. Tara Raboomdeay*

    I wrote last week about how badly my new job was going. I need to pass a series of specialized computer tests in order to pass to next level, or else I’ll be let go. I passed most of the tests, but not all. Today is my last chance to do so, and I’m afraid that I might not be able to do so. If I don’t do so, I’ll be let go sometime today. I’ve really tried hard but sometimes a person’s best isn’t good enough. Just knowing this amps up the stress level.

    I’m really feeling bummed out about the whole situation and I sort of feel this impending sense of doom, like I’m walking onto the gallows. If I do get let go, I know that I won’t be angry, but I hope I can keep it together enough not to get teary-eyed.

    1. Use the Navy Seal Tricks*

      Google box breathing. It may help you get some focus and control the stress so you can do your best without self-sabotaging by being so worked up about it. Good luck!

      1. Tara Raboomdeay*

        Well, I tried deep breathing and I tried my best on the tests, but I didn’t pass and so now I’m looking again.

        One thing that was kind of weird to me was that one of the trainers told me (and another person who also washed out) that we might consider applying for positions in other different divisions of the company. He said that while we weren’t right for these particular positions, he thought we were sincere and made a good effort and that we might be better in other roles. He also said that the other positions tend to pay a bit better and that because we were already in their computerized personel system and already had our background checks done, that would give us an advantage in being selected to work in a different role in the other divisions. I’m not sure if I believe all this or if he was just giving us a line.

        After the 3 day weekend I’m going to a family reunion and will be gone for a week or so, but I might consider it.

  135. Cedrus Libani*

    My company has apparently decided that, as a matter of policy, we are not supposed to contact references during the hiring process. There’s still a background check post-hiring, but no personal references.

    (I know this because I overheard my grandboss and great-grandboss talking about it, and neither was enthusiastic. I have no idea whether this is a reaction to the new European privacy laws, or it’s the latest HR fad, or what. This is a very large, international company.)

    Anybody have experience with such a system, good, bad, or ugly?

    1. That Awful Paperclip*

      This is standard where I live; references are actually the exception, not the norm. The norm is that someone who works there refers you to the job, and that person is basically vouching for you. Something like 3/4ths of jobs where I live are due to personal referrals. Few people hire strangers, and it’s very hard to get into the job market here because of that. I know this isn’t exactly what you meant, but it’s one way of ‘dealing’ with a lack of references.

    2. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Our organization, in the US, has the same policy. It makes no sense. As has been discussed many times by Alison, it totally defeats the purpose of references.

  136. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

    Why do companies include essay questions on applications? I’m seeing some job applications have the kinds of questions that would be asked in an initial phone screen or even a second interview. It feels really disrespectful of the applicants time, but maybe I’m just out of touch?

    1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

      How long are the questions? If I have a blank space on a job app where I need to write, I usually keep it to a paragraph. I think brevity is a mark of a good writer, and I wouldn’t want to wade through a full essay if I was hiring.

      1. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

        One or two or even three answer questions I am still a little frustrated by, but I kind of understand it, but the one I filled out today had 8 or 9 questions that they clearly expected at least a paragraph for each.

    2. Not All Who Wander*

      Feds do it because when we use the radio icon buttons, the crap candidates just rate themselves the highest for every question. Once a vet makes it past HR based on that score, there is almost nothing we can do to hire an infinitely more qualified non-vet even if in the interviews prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the vet lied when they clicked their little buttons to rate their experience on each of the button-style questions. With essay, the worst of them usually either simply don’t bother to answer or at least have an increased chance of not receiving a high score even with their preference points to make it onto the hiring cert.

      (Yes, decades in federal hiring have made me seriously bitter and angry about the way vets preference points are implemented. We’ve non-filled more positions than I care to think about because there were amazing, qualified people blocked by absolute disasters of 10 pt vets. There ARE good vets…I’ve hired some…but there are also absolutely useless ones with documented histories of sexual harassment, bigotry, and racism and even criminal behavior in the workplace where I still couldn’t go with a great non-vet candidate because of that damn program.)

  137. Pebbles*

    This January CurrentJob switched our vacation to accrual (sick time is a separate bucket). Previously we always received our vacation allotment upfront on January 1st and had a use-it-or-lose-it by December 31st policy. Because of this we started this year with zero hours of vacation time. Now, I had already booked a trip for January before this change in policy was announced (in November!). I was allowed to go on vacation and have a negative balance for vacation hours. And, in fact, the company will allow us at any time to borrow up to a week for vacation.

    So here’s the odd thing: CurrentJob has a stated policy that if we leave with a negative balance that we will have to pay those hours back to the company and it will be taken out of our last paycheck. However, if we leave with a positive balance the company will not pay those hours out to us. So, our vacation time only has a monetary value if the company is to benefit, NOT if we were to benefit.

    Does this make sense to anyone else other than being extremely cheap?

    1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      No, that sounds like extreme cheapness, and depending on the state you’re in if you’re in the US, it might be illegal (don’t want to get your hopes up though).

    2. SoCalHR*

      Definitely check your state laws. CA, for example, you’d have to be paid out for the vacation hours banked but they could not dock your final paycheck for the owed money.

    3. Pebbles*

      Unfortunately I am in Minnesota, so the state laws are that it is wholly on a contractual basis as determined by the company’s policies (which in this case, company says that it doesn’t have to pay us for it). However all the information I have found online addresses a positive balance for unused vacation time. I’m still left wondering about having to pay it back for a negative balance; if it’s acceptable under the same provision that since the company wrote it into their policies then the company can withhold money from our final paycheck.

  138. Erika22*

    Project managers! Quick poll: is it worth the time/cost/effort to get a CAPM certification?

    I’ve only just started job hunting but am getting the sense that I need something to give me an edge. I’ve been told in the past that there’s no point in getting the CAPM certification since the exam is almost identical to the PMP exam, but I’m also not aiming for PM jobs, more like jr PM or a higher-level project coordinator.

    Thoughts?

    1. KX*

      Who is paying for it?

      I wouldn’t pay out of pocket, but if your company wants you to have it… The only thing would be you might end up with rules for how much longer you have to work at the company. If you quit before you’ve “paid off” the training, then you might have to pay it back.

  139. Dust Bunny*

    I’m writing this on behalf of a former coworker (I used to work at this place and know the people involved and the dynamics. Former coworker thinks I’m a better writer than she is, though, and asked for help explaining this). I’m sorry it’s so long–it’s a little confusing.

    It’s a small business with about 20 total employees. Tangential but somewhat relevant is that it’s in a small town and most of the employees have some kind of personal relationship outside of the job–they’re schoolmates or in-laws or cousins or brothers’ girlfriends or something.

    Amanda and Kristal are supervisors of two different departments. Their positions are equal and they both report directly to the administrative staff and owners, but Amanda’s position has the specific additional duty of resolving conflicts among employees at her level and below, so she doesn’t have authority over Kristal but in this circumstance, she can make certain requirements of her. Bunny is one of Amanda’s team members; Mary is one of Kristal’s.

    Bunny has the reputation of being slightly rebellious but she likes Amanda and will do as Amanda asks. Kristal was one of the first employees hired and her seniority gives her a lot of security with the owners, but the general feeling on staff is that she’s been favored a bit by them and gets away with things other staff can’t, although the degree to which people feel this varies a lot. Amanda and Mary are “outsiders”–they’re from other towns and don’t have relationships with any other staff prior to working here. They both get along with pretty much everyone but aren’t especially close to anyone (they don’t see other staff socially). Amanda previously worked at a similar business and was promoted quickly. This hasn’t created problems for her with other staff but it does mean that she’s still relatively new and unfamiliar to the owners and admin. Mary is a high-school girl who only works a few hours a week, but is level-headed and reliable.

    Bunny and Kristal don’t get along. That Bunny doesn’t report to Kristal helps, but they butt heads on a regular basis and Amanda is responsible for untangling things (before anyone asks–we have higher-level admins that, yes, probably should be the ones to deal with this, but that’s not how the jobs are parceled out, and since those people also have personal connections to most of the staff, it might not be helpful. It’s a very incestuous workplace). Kristal is about five months pregnant.

    The specific situation is this: Kristal came running to Amanda, in tears and raging because “Bunny called her stupid”. Bunny swears she was muttering at a piece of office equipment (which is plausible; there is one machine that malfunctions a lot and they all swear at it). Mary heard Bunny muttering and knew that Bunny was using the machine, but was doing something else and didn’t actually see what Bunny was muttering at. Both Mary and Bunny say they didn’t even know Kristal was in the room (around a corner, out of sight). Amanda could question Bunny claiming this but it’s very unlikely that Mary would if it weren’t true.

    So now Kristal is demanding that Bunny be disciplined, but also saying that she’s “more sensitive” because she’s pregnant–she seems to think, though, that that means everyone should do what she wants instead of considering that it might mean that her reactions could be out-of-line. Bunny insists she was grousing at the copier. Mary knows that Bunny was grousing *near* the copier but didn’t see Bunny’s position or body language.

    The admin and owners are demanding that Amanda resolve this. They’ve mostly sided with Kristal, but there isn’t actually any way to tell what happened. It’s she said, she said, with a lot of influence from the combatants’ reputations. Amanda doesn’t want to let it slide if Bunny was in the wrong, which she c0uld be, but she also doesn’t want to possibly get her fired if Kristal is overreacting, which she could be.

    Yes, Amanda, is looking for a new job. One trip through middle school was enough, thanks.

    Meanwhile . . . advice?

    1. Susan Sto Helit*

      Even if it could be proved Bunny called Kristal stupid, that still feels like a situation where you’d just ask Bunny to apologise (if it’s a first offense) rather than discipline her.

      Amanda should ask Bunny to apologise even if it was just a misunderstanding, then tell Kristal to drop it.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, incestuous and middle school, wow. The fact that there’s so much detail in here and you’re not even the person directly involves suggests a level of enmeshment that really isn’t good for an office.

      I don’t think Kristal gets to demand anybody get disciplined, and I think it’s fine to tell her that her pregnancy can’t get taken into consideration here, too. She gets to say “I think your report called me stupid; I hope you’ll take action” but that’s about it, and I’ll tell her I’ll take action but that what action I take will be based in my judgment of the situation. I would call in Bunny (presumably Bunny has already told me to my face that she didn’t call Kristal “stupid”) and say that she needs to improve her relationship with Kristal to the point where Kristal isn’t going to take it personally if Bunny calls the printer “stupid,” and let’s talk about ways to do that.

  140. Office Worker*

    How soon is too soon at a new job to ask to refer someone? We are an always hiring large company (so not a specific post). I started three weeks ago and have an old coworker I want to refer. She was on a different team at my last job but has been self studying to transfer to an entry level position in a department like mine. When I talk to her she seems very knowledgeable about the topics, perhaps more than is even expected for entry level so I think she would be a great candidate. My company also gives $500 for referrals, but I dont care about that, just want to help her.

    1. Ali G*

      How far along are you in your career? If you a new to the workforce AND your job, I’m not sure how much weight you would have. But if you’ve been in the same area for a while, then maybe it would be OK. But it also sounds like you haven’t really worked with her, so I would keep it as a referral and not a recommendation. What happens if they are not interested? Does it look bad on you? I think it’s good you want to help your friend out, but don’t do it at your own expense.

    2. KX*

      Remember: I actually know nothing. But…

      I always thought the point of internal referral bonuses was because you were vouching to someone you know that the company is a good place to work, and it encouraged everyone working at the company to be ambassadors (for the sake of increasing the quality of the talent). You are referring the job to a friend, not referring your friend to the company.

      If you like so much there after only three weeks that you want to share an opportunity with another person, it’s not bad. It’s good!

      It’s not like going to a hiring manager in person to vouch for someone else after you’ve only been there for three weeks. That would be unproductive. They don’t know you, really. So, I wouldn’t carry any resumes, but I would definitely recommend making the referral. Maybe you will get the bonus and you can both go out to fancy lunch!

  141. Camellia*

    I see my eye surgeon today and will probably be declared legally blind. It’s been really hard to accept. I voluntarily quit driving at night over a year ago, and the last few months I have not felt able to safely drive in the rain so he would take me to work. And I stopped driving anywhere else but to work, insisting I could still drive myself to work because it’s on neighborhood roads and I know the route so well. But we were out of town a couple of weekends ago and he was asking me about what I could see and not see, e.g. I can no longer read any road signs, not even the big green ones, and when he found out the true limits of my vision he said he would start driving me to work all the time.

    He is so fantastic, he said he knows how hard it’s been and that I am a fighter and it’s so hard to give up, but he felt that I really needed to take this last step – but it was totally up to me. I acknowledged that he was right, and called and scheduled my appointment.

    On the plus side, we can sell my car and get rid of the car payment and the insurance, which will save us a pretty penny.

    1. Workerbee*

      I am so sorry to hear this is happening to you. It sucks and is unfair! I hope that taking the step yourself to make that appointment can help you through this in some way.

  142. Ali G*

    So I might have a little conundrum, but nothing is set yet – I am just trying to get my head around a thought process if this happens and I could use some input:
    Last week I submitted an application for an awesome job and a prestigious non-profit, who’s HQ just happens to be 10 miles down the road (literally). I’ve worked with many people from this org and one person in particular knows someone in the office that is hiring the position and she put in a good word for me. I have excellent experience for this position as well. But, it’s a big org, will have a ton of applications and the closing date in Monday. So even if I am going to get an interview it will be a while before I know. Fine, I can wait!
    BUT, yesterday I got an email from a recruiter I’ve been working with who is doing a favor for a personal connection. This is a small, unrelated to my field non-profit looking for a new ED. This field isn’t too exciting, and the ED job won’t pay as well as the Director job at Big NP, but…I would get to be an ED of a NP!! The recruiter gave me the contact details of the search committee, told me to apply and copy her and she would put in a good word for me. Now nothing is for sure, but if they were interested in me, this process would move a lot faster than Big NP.
    So my dilemma is that both jobs are attractive in different ways and I have important/respected people acting on my behalf at both, but I might not really get the chance to explore them equally.
    Any ideas on how to proceed? At the very least I am going to wait to submit an application to Small NP until after Monday (closing date for Big NP job), just to give me a little cushion.

    1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

      Oh my gosh your situation is both wonderful and so anxiety producing. I think your idea to wait to submit until the closing period is a good one, and I think the interview with Small NP will give you a little more info. The ED title is awesome if it’s a functioning NP, and I think ultimately the quality of the NP and the work environment is going to be a good indicator for which job you take (since some NP’s can be…weird and toxic and if it’s outside of your field you may not know that by word of mouth, you know?)

      1. Ali G*

        Yes! Good point. The Small NP has been around awhile and they are looking to make big changes, so it could be fun but challenging – especially since it isn’t my field. I definitely need to get to know them well before agreeing to take the job (if it ever comes to that!).

  143. Oh No She Betty Don’t*

    We are hiring for a department lead and have a highly qualified applicant. Through due diligence, we realized our applicant is related (step-family/marriage) to one of our staff (YE). There is a lot of family drama within YE’s family so we approached YE and asked if there would be any issue working with our applicant BEFORE we pursued the applicant. YE stated she had no idea our applicant was in our field, liked and had always gotten along with our applicant, didn’t understand how she was married to her husband but didn’t see any problem working together. After processing the information, we decided to move forward and scheduled two meetings with our applicant. Between the first and second meeting, YE approached me and asked if the applicant would be her lead (yes). One hour before our second interview with the applicant YE bypassed me, went to my supervisor and said if we hired the applicant, YE would no longer feel comfortable talking about her personal life in the department and would have to look for employment elsewhere due to worries that her personal life would be talked about outside the department by our applicant. We have decided to pursue hiring this applicant as this is a difficult position to fill in our location whereas YE would be easier to replace if she follows through on her threat. How do you deal with ultimatums of this nature, especially from younger employees? What about the potential problems this employee would cause if our applicant is offered and accepts this position? Do we talk to the applicant about the possible issues? What about our other staff buying into YE’s drama regarding the applicant?

    1. alanna granger*

      Yikes. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I have some sympathy for YE here — I’ve had the prospect of a drama llama from my personal life showing up on my team, and I didn’t handle it well either.

      It’s one thing to work at vaguely the same company as your stepmom’s brother or stepcousin-in-law, or whatever, and another thing to have them as your boss. If your employee didn’t fully realize the nature of the job they were interviewing for (even if she should have) that’s an understandable reason for a change of heart.

      I think it’s reasonable to ask the applicant how they would deal with a family member being in the line of command. I do not think you should mention YE’s ultimatum.

      I also think you should address YE’s concerns with her, and tell her that, while you understand she’s concerned, an ultimatum isn’t the best way to handle the situation. (If she’s young, this is a good teaching moment.) Still, “I’m afraid my stepcousin is going to use stuff she knows about me as my boss to stir up trouble in my family” is a reasonable issue to raise in the workplace. Are there solutions that would make everyone happy? Could she just cut it out on talking about her personal life at work? Is there a position she could transfer to in another department?

      At the end of the day, your message to YE (and your employees) sounds like it’s “We’re going to hire this person, and you will have to deal with it as you see fit.” I’m not sure if there’s a real way to message that to staff, honestly; you put your desire for a new hire at a high level over the needs of your existing staff at a lower level. That’s a legitimate decision to make, but it’s hard to sugarcoat. I would say you should be ready to talk about how you weigh employees’ concerns in the hiring process more generally, and what they should do if they’re concerned about someone you’re hiring.

    2. fposte*

      I’m a little surprised this ended up in YE’s lap in the first place–I don’t think it’s appropriate to have a relative supervising a relative, so I think your company should have decided how to avoid that on its own rather than making it YE’s problem. (And unless it was crystal clear to YE that you were going to hire the relative as YE’s lead, I don’t think you can hold an earlier response against her; I also don’t really see why the relative’s value matters at this stage in a way it didn’t when you asked YE’s opinion.)

      At this point if you go ahead I think you just need to be straightforward: “I hope you’ll find a way to work it out, because we’d hate to lose you, but we decided that we really need what this person brings. If you stay, I’m sure you’ll be the capable and professional employee you’ve always been for us.” But I’m not seeing drama here, and I think you’re at risk of creating it by worrying about the applicant and the other staff. YE will leave or she’ll stay and be more circumspect. Both of those are okay.

    3. Thlayli*

      I think the best solution is to go back in time and tell YE that her relative would be her supervisor BEFORE asking her opinion. It’s one thing to work with a relative, quite another to work in the same team as a relative, and another again to work for a relative.

      Obviously you don’t have a time machine so you have to choose between losing YE or giving up on the candidate at this point. It sounds like you’ve made your choice.

      However you need to stop thinking of this as YE giving an ultimatum or causing drama. You didn’t give her all the info before asking her opinion so she has every right to change her mind after getting all the info. It’s not “drama” to not want to work with an estranged relative.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      I’m a bit confused. Why did you ask YE their opinion when you don’t seem to care about YE’s opinion?

  144. 31 days left @ toxic job*

    I’m trying to figure out if I’m being an entitled millennial or if this is another manifestation of my toxic workplace.

    My boss proposed a project to me which I started to look into. We have a super small office, but I am at the Director level and the only person who knows enough about the process and issue to take on the project. After hitting some walls in my initial research, I told my boss that I didn’t think this project was a good use of our resources, I thought it wouldn’t play well in public opinion (our work is pretty scrutinized) and we should focus on the projects we already had.

    My boss responded with a VERY rude text, basically telling me that he knew best, I had no idea what I was talking about, we could do two things at once, etc. etc. So I guess what I’m asking is: am I stupid for thinking that my opinion should be heard? Should one always just defer to the boss?

      1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

        Ok thank you. My mother said the same thing, but she’s my mom so she has to say that. It’s wild how much this job has made me reset my own internal clock of what’s normal

      1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

        It was an issue that I sensed people wouldn’t support (think giving tax breaks to the wealthy, the project was to create an advantage for a group that didn’t need one as much as other community groups). I told him this over text, which may not have been the best way, but he is rarely in the office I’m in.

        1. Far more anon than usual*

          Oooh, this is awkward.

          Are you at a not-for-profit? If so, I think there’s some context issues here.

          Are you stupid for thinking that your opinion should be heard? Should one always just defer to the boss? No, but when you work for a very values/identity-driven organization is that there’s some expectation that the opinions you express and the work your support need to be aligned with the organization’s values. If your boss is the ED or CEO, that means you have don’t have much latitude to disagree.

          Some NFPs sometimes struggle to discourage leaders from acting as if professional disagreement is dangerous. The worst case is that you end up with a boss who lashes out at you, but even in the best case disagreement quietly burns political capital.

          1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

            Without going too in-depth, yes basically I’m in a very identity driven organization. What was odd about this case, to me, was that I felt like the project was going against our identity as an organization. But you make a really good point about disagreement being harder to swallow when I’m butting up against not just our identity but the person running it who sets the whole identity.

        2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          Yeah, I think the misstep was to try to convey this over text.

          I’m a big believer that text in the workplace should be used to alert people to things… “Hey, just sent an email about the Johnson account… please read” or “I’m running 10 min late…start without me” or “Big problem… get the team together in 15 min”

          This was a conversation to have face to face where you present what you’ve found, talk about what you see as the challenges, and then to ask based on what you’ve found out how to proceed.

          In other words, a text to say “Hey can we set up some time to discuss the Perkins Project? I’ve found some things that I want to get your input on” would have been better.

          1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

            That’s a good thing to keep in mind, thank you. If I have another situation like this in the next month I’m here (which is likely) I’ll try not to communicate any disagreement over text.

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      Toxic. In a healthy workplace, your boss might still disagree with you, and you’ll have to do the thing. But a smart boss will explain themselves. It’s my job to explain that I think something won’t work, for reasons XYZ – they hired me because I can do that – but maybe the boss is aware of factors ABC and DEF.

      1. 31 days left @ toxic job*

        That’s what rubbed me the wrong way! I felt like I was hired and put in this position because I know what I’m doing, not as someone to just carry the whims of my boss. But such is this workplace.

  145. Commentor Formerly Known as Still Looking*

    Started my new job this week, and it’s already a much better fit and environment than what I left. There is also good outdoor space (roof deck in my building, large courtyard outside the main cafeteria, plus lots of public green space), and the weather has been perfect to enjoy it. The commute is easier. I am back with people who do my job and get it. It’s such a relief! This is a great match so far. I’m now a contractor and won’t make any money for the long weekend off, but my pay rate is more than double my previous salary. So I still come out ahead!

  146. BookCocoon*

    Feeling pretty low today. I’ve been looking for a new job that would allow me to work from home with a flexible schedule, but so far haven’t had any luck. I decided that one thing that would make a huge difference in my happiness with my current job is if my schedule was adjusted so I had four slightly longer days and could leave early one afternoon a week. Being hourly and also having a toddler has caused a lot of stress for me trying to get anything done outside of work, and just a few hours a week of free time while he’s in daycare would be a dream. I brought it to my supervisor, she was on board; she checked with our director; he decided (I don’t know why) that he had to clear it with our VP first. And he was told, “Mm, we don’t really do things like that here.” That was the whole reason given. It’s not even true — there’s at least one other person in another division whom I work with regularly who’s out one whole day a week because that’s how she set up her schedule.

    I’m upset not just about my schedule request being denied, because it would have made a big difference to my mental health right now, but also about how this whole thing is just indicative of the problems at this organization. Like the fact that our director can’t just grant a request without running it up to the VP, even though it really wouldn’t affect anyone outside this office, and the VP denies it just because he doesn’t want to think about doing something different. And while my supervisor is advocating for me, there are so many layers of bureaucracy that I don’t even have the opportunity to negotiate directly with the person who apparently controls the decision. The whole thing makes me feel trapped and suffocated.

    1. Pjmasks*

      You should look for a new job working for people that are more understanding and care about their employees. In the meantime, do you have any sick days that you can use to get stuff done? Or pretend you have a Doctor appointment and go in late or leave early. Afterall, they are forcing you to play these games. Good luck to you.

  147. Parenthetically*

    Today was my Last Day as a teacher (for now — I imagine I’ll go back in X number of years when my kid[s] are older). It was a little sad. Mostly I’m tired, and excited for summer, and contemplating a margarita with my lunch.

    New beginnings! *raises glass around to y’all*

    2. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Congratulations! (And as a lifetime New Yorker, where school always ran till the end of June, places where school years end around Memorial Day and start well before Labor Day is still so strange to me…)

    3. Loves Libraries*

      Been there. Though at times I did prefer other people’s children to mine. Enjoy your time with your little ones. You are still their first teacher.

  148. Serious Pillowfight*

    I’ve been writing in about a gender wage gap issue. I learned the gap is much smaller than I thought. I think my colleague was speaking off the cuff/rounding up/didn’t actually know how much he made? Whatever. Either way there shouldn’t be a gap at all, but I feel better about things.

    Thing is, in my annoyance I reached out to my network and already have a job interview scheduled for next week! I’m going to go and find out more, but I’m not really feeling like I want to leave my current job anymore. Plus we’re already down a person in my department and if I left I’d be screwing over two managers I really like and who have gone to bat for me. Not saying I’ll even get an offer, but I’m really stressing out. Plus the new job would be working with much less creative stuff than I do now.

    Two friends/former colleagues put in a good word for me at the new place, so maybe this is just a courtesy interview. Either way, am I burning a bridge or doing wrong by my friends if I don’t take the job should I get an offer?

    I’m sorry if this comment is all over the place. I’m on mobile and my brain is going in a million directions about everything.

    1. CAA*

      You’re not burning bridges or screwing anyone over whichever choice you make. It is your current managers’ job to figure out how to handle things when people leave. Stuff happens and they get paid to deal with it. You leaving is not screwing them over, even if they have gone to bat for you in the past. That is not to say that they wouldn’t feel hurt, but if they’re good managers they’ll get over it and wish you well.

      With regard to your friends who got you the interview, I think you should go. Ask questions and find out for sure what the work entails before deciding that it’s not a good fit for you. If nothing else, you are getting in some interview practice, which pretty much everybody needs. Once you’ve done the interview, there is nothing wrong with saying that while you appreciate their time, you’ve thought it over and decided that the position would not take your career in the direction you want it to go, so you’re withdrawing your application. Tell the hiring manager this first, then tell your friends.

  149. Chameleon*

    Kind of calling for a pep talk/help reframing things, sorry if this is long:

    My sitch: I work as an adjunct prof at a community college. Unlike most adjunct jobs, I only work at one school, have the same course schedule every quarter, and have my own, dedicated classroom, so it’s a pretty good setup. On the other hand, I only get a full load one quarter a year and the pay is pretty bottom of the scale, plus my students are very inexperienced with education so I don’t really get to challenge them as much as I’d like. Also, I don’t teach summers so I have 3 months with no income.

    I just got turned down for a full-time job at a college I’d love to work for (didn’t even make the second round of interviews) but they offered me a summer class. So here’s the dilemma: I was kind of really, really looking forward to having no class because I’ve had some mental health challenges this year and wanted some time to work on that and heal a little. But if I don’t work we are going to go into debt by a couple thousand over the summer, and that’s *with* a pretty tight budget.

    I decided that I would take the job, but only if there would be curriculum provided because it’s a class I haven’t taught before and I just don’t have the time/energy to design an entire class (lectures plus assessments; labs would be provided). But I’m afraid that by passing it up I will shoot myself in the foot and I will lose the opportunity to work there in the future (they pay about 60% more per class). So now I’m waiting to hear what support I’d have.

    I have 2 issues: One, I keep thinking about the negatives to either getting the job, or not getting the job. I know that since both have negatives that also means both have positives but it’s disheartening.

    Two, I keep feeling like I will never get out of the school I’m at now, and I’ll never make more than the pittance I do now, and every opportunity that comes my way is only a partial opportunity that I can’t afford to take but that by letting them go I am killing all my chances at bettering my situation. I sadly don’t really know anyone else in this industry well enough to get advice or feedback on my career progression, so I feel like I am blindly stumbling and am probably making the worst possible decisions because that’s pretty much my MO.

    Sorry this is so long and rambly, but if anyone actually reads this I would really appreciate either advice or words of encouragement.

    1. Manders*

      Hey, I’ve known a lot of people in your position! Adjucting can be rough on the budget, and the stress of not having a reliable job does take a toll over time.

      Is teaching at the high school level something you would ever consider? My partner bashed his head against the wall at a community college for a while (the whole department loved him, but there just wasn’t a more permanent opening available) and finally ended up at a private high school. Although he’s working with younger students, a ton of them are on the same level academically as his college kids, so he’s able to teach similar material.

      Once you go the high school route, it’s going to be hard to get back into the college system, so keep that in mind if you really do want to work at a college in the longer term.

      1. Chameleon*

        Yeah, that’s crossed my mind. My husband is actually a high school teacher so I have some idea of what it’s like and…I don’t know that I can handle teenagers, to be honest. The nice thing about CC is that people at least have some reason to care about the class (if only that they are paying to be there!) but a room full of hormonal people with poor impulse control that mostly don’t give a damn about what I’m teaching is something I’m not sure I can actually handle. It would also probably require another year of school to get my teaching certificate in this state. But the $60k a year I’d likely pull down with a PhD is pretty tempting…

        1. Manders*

          Hah, I understand, I couldn’t handle teaching teenagers either.

          For what it’s worth, he finds it kind of relaxing in comparison to community college teaching–all of his students show up to class reliably, and if a kid’s obviously floundering, he can go to their advisor or the school guidance counselor. Our local community colleges actually have a ton of high school students enrolled, so he was already dealing with teenagers in his adjunct job with less administrative support. He’s at a private school now so he didn’t end up needing a teaching certificate and he doesn’t have to deal with the same problems that teachers at under-funded public schools are going through.

    3. Reba*

      Good luck, Chameleon.

      My gut feeling is to take the summer gig, because having the money will be less stressful than resting-while-going-into-debt. I hope that they will be able to give you some materials — do you know anyone else in the field (former grad school classmates, other colleagues) who might also have a syllabus or other stuff to hand who could share? The prep burden is real and should not be disregarded, but I feel sure you can do this if you want to.

    4. Banana stand*

      It seems pretty clear that you should take the job if not taking it would mean going into debt. Toughen up and what you have to do.

    5. Max from St. Mary's*

      As a former adjunct…take the money. Seriously, never turn down classes unless you can afford to do without the income.
      Besides the immediate money, this might lead to getting more classes at the college you want to teach at, which would allow you to cut back at the community college and might be helpful next time the preferred college has a full-time opening.
      A warning, though: I’ve taught at a university, a small liberal arts college, and a community college, and there wasn’t nearly as much difference between the students as you’d think.

  150. Sunflower*

    For those of you who are pregnant or have been pregnant, when did you let work know? Any regrets in not letting them know sooner or waiting longer?

    1. Nita*

      OMG. I’m stressing out over this right now. For what it’s worth, when pregnant with my first I told my boss nearly right away – my work sometimes involved toxic chemicals and heavy lifting, so I wanted to be up-front about why I was going out of my way to stay on desk duty. With my second, I waited till 4 months – it was not an easy pregnancy, I kept waiting for something to go wrong, and there was no reason to talk sooner because my work was 99% in the office at that point. Also we were terribly understaffed for the workload, so I was really dreading the conversation. This one is my third kid, and while things worked out with my second leave, we’re still understaffed (a few people have left) and I’m once again terrified to break the news to my boss. She’s from a family of seven, so I think she won’t freak out about the sheer number of kids. I do not think she’ll be happy to hear I’ll be out on leave again, though.

    2. Emi.*

      I announced around 15.5 weeks and probably should have done it a little sooner, because it turns out a couple people had guessed. :P

    3. Parenthetically*

      I told my boss pretty early — before 10 weeks, probably? Because his wife and I are pretty close work-friends, and because I wanted him to know in case I needed to take time off for any reason. He’s a good person, so I don’t have any regrets. I waited longer to tell other folks.

    4. Anonberry*

      Just entered week 14 and planning to hold out for another week or two. Still waiting on my first trimester screen results.

      1. Anon-gineer*

        Wow, we really are at about the same place. I’m also waiting on screen results to mention it to my boss, though my partner has told everyone he knows and then some :)

        I was also hoping for news on a new project to come through, so I’d be assigned a role before they took into account maternity leave.

    5. Kj*

      I told at 12 weeks. It was about the right time- I wasn’t showing, but I started showing a little after that. Everyone was supportive.

    6. Lirael*

      I told my boss around 8 weeks the first time and 5 weeks the second time. I’m lucky to have a really supportive team, and I get horribly ill while pregnant – enough so that I have to be hospitalized and take months off of work. My second pregnancy ended in stillbirth around the time I thought I’d finally be well enough to come back to work after being out sick a few months. I know people have different comfort levels with having to announce things like a miscarriage/stillbirth, so you’ll know best what will be most comfortable for you, but I was so relieved that everyone knew what had happened with my second baby, and I didn’t even have to tell anyone in person – I texted my boss, and he let everyone know and they sent a joint card and one of those edible arrangements.

    7. VelociraptorAttack*

      I told my direct supervisor very early on, we were undergoing infertility treatments, I knew she and her husband were planning on having another child, and I was comfortable with her knowing. Also, since I did infertility treatments, once I got my positive test I had to go in for blood tests every other day for the first week and a half to make sure my levels were rising appropriately so I told her so she knew why I was late for work every other day. She was extremely supportive and nearly as excited so I have no regrets, plus she ended up pregnant as well so it was nice that we both had a sounding board while no one else knew.

      As for the rest of my coworkers, once I hit week 13 I told them. A few of them had suspected (the ones with offices closest to the bathroom, what do you know) but they were also supportive.

    8. Thlayli*

      It depends on circumstances. In my case I wanted to get approval for an expensive training course and my company had a year of maternity leave (UK). So obviously I didn’t want to tell them I was about to leave for a year right after the course. So I waited until after the course was booked and paid for to tell. I wore baggy clothes.

    1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      Right there with ya. On my lunch break I went into an unoccupied conference room and just shut my eyes for 1/2 hour, didn’t do any good.

  152. Bea*

    I left the last place I worked because I pulled 60hr weeks and my boss was a hands off psychopath who got mad when I couldn’t maintain perfection doing 3 jobs at once. Then my bf got hurt on the job and he called him a liar and just generally an insufferable moron who didn’t care about his employees, saw them only as a way to make cash. Only his business was bleeding money because of all the corners he cut and positions he eliminated in haste.

    Anyways I’ve been free for six months. And my boss knows I was overworked but doesn’t need the rest of the story.

    WE HAD A RESIGNATION! And my boss carefully approached the idea I could step into more duties. But he’s worried about making me feel pressure and getting into the same spot. Since he doesn’t know the extent of the last crazy.

    I did elaborate a little more about the elimination of entire NECESSARY positions and dumping the duties on me. Being denied resources and proper assistance or leadership.

    So he’s more at ease going into this process. He’s not eliminating the position by any means but he’s retooling so he can advertise the job easier. Right now it’s a lot of stuff and the person now averages 45hrs a week but has a long commute. So it’s just not enough for them to stay on.

    I’m wrapping my mind around how I fall into these things. I’m excited to step up for a company who will compensate me for additional duties and also appreciate my limits because despite rumors, I am just one mortal woman.

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    1. Bea*

      Also as a kid without a college education, this is the first place that tends to lean towards education requirements. So I’m exhausting myself wondering how it’s possible that my life has come into this kind of thing.

      I started at 19 doing data entry and filing. Full Charge Books by 22. Managing a manufacturing company by 25 when my boss was too ill to do it anymore. Then felt like a failure after Voldemort was so impossible to navigate, I could have ran that place but it’s too detailed to cut my right arm off with poorly paid customer service and demanding people hurt themselves “for the team”

      It took me down. But Mark Cuban says he’s had people shove him down and treat him like he’s stupid. So I will channel my inner Cuban and just keep going with another step towards being a self made executive.

      1. Ashk434*

        Maybe you should consider going to college to improve your writing. It’s very difficult to understand what you’re trying to say.

        1. Barb*

          That wasn’t a very kind or useful thing to say. You could ask specific questions, or you can refrain from commenting. This is supposed to be a supportive environment.

  153. Redheaded Boss*

    I have an employee who brings baked goods for the whole office (of 40) maybe every other week. She’s a mediocre performer – nice person but struggles with her performance, and very socially awkward (multiple people have said this, it’s not just my perception). Whenever she brings the treats in, rather than just leave them in the kitchen quietly like most people do, she sends out an office wide email and makes sure everyone knows she brought treats that day. Since I am her boss, she makes an especially big effort to tell me – I think partly because she knows she’s not a great performer (we are a government office, but she has been on a performance improvement plan, and I told her that some of her work has not met my expectations lately). Usually when she tells me about the treats, I just say “OK,” but not in an encouraging tone. I figure it’s harmless, so I don’t tell her to stop (don’t want to kill morale). However, this week another staff member commented to me that others think her behavior with the treats is over the top and kind of awkward. (She probably spends up to $100 per month.) Is it time that I told her she can cut the treats out because no amount of brownie/cookie/candy towers will make up for poor to mediocre performance? How can I say this diplomatically? This woman has low emotional intelligence, so communication with her must be fairly direct, but she still has feelings…

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I am interested in what other people say, but for me…I wouldn’t mention the treats. If you continue to have the conversations about how she needs to improve, I think it ought to be obvious that brownies are not the answer to her problems.

      1. KR*

        This is my take as well. A lot of people just really enjoy baking too and need people to share it with. She seems kind of lonely.

    2. alanna granger*

      I think you can address the officewide email, but not the treat-bringing behavior itself — “Hey Jane, I’ve noticed you send an email to the whole office every time you bring in treats. It’s fine if you want to share things you’ve made with your coworkers, but most people just leave their treats on the counter so they don’t clog up their colleagues’ inboxes. Can you do it that way going forward?”

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        This is a good distinction. As a person who isn’t good at social interaction, she may just not have picked up that the office norm is to leave the food in the kitchen with no mass email.

        If she were a solid performer, this is the sort of minor misstep you would point out. So treat her like there is no subtext in the brownies.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        Oh, that’s a good point. Yeah, the emails do have the potential to be awfully, you know, patting-herself-on-the-back-like.

    3. Bea*

      I think you can address it openly since she’s on a PIP. Explain that treats are nice but you need her to focus on the work, tell her do not announce via department wide emails. Tell her others will leave treats in the kitchen and go to work, announcements are unnecessary and disruptive.

      I wouldn’t go so far as no more treats but drill down on the fact she’s using time to make announcements.

      Then see where that goes. It will hurt her but that’s not your problem.

    4. Far more anon than usual*

      Another way to look at it is this: if an employee on a PIP was heavily involved in your office’s social committee or something similar, would you ask them to scale back their involvement until they dealt with the core issues in their PIP?

      Bringing in homemade treats is a little bit different but not entirely so. This is tricky because while she may not have an ulterior motive for bringing in treats, she’s also probably unaware of the optics of what she’s doing. If you were to address the treats directly at all, I’d talk about it in the context of you needing to be clear about her priorities in contributing to the team. Someone with more emotional intelligence would find this really patronizing and boundary-crossing, but it sounds like you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t understand how their actions may be perceived.

  154. medium tall*

    What are your experiences with working with a boss or coworker who is remote? What has been successful for you in navigating that relationship

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      People know you by your emails to them, often, so be scrupulous about that. Organized, not too long, not snarky. It’s a cousin of people not being able to discern tone in blog comments–make sure you don’t have to explain where you were making a funny. (Not until they ‘know’ you a lot better, which takes longer if people don’t get visual and voice cues to round out the picture.)

    2. CAA*

      Visibility. Be available on IM as much as possible. Respond promptly to emails. Have a regular time for phone calls and accept that if you’re in different time zones these calls will be at inconvenient times. Patience. Professionalism.

    3. CatCat*

      I work in a different office than my bosses and everyone on me team. It works well overall. I keep in touch regularly with my bosses over the phone and email.

      Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of interactions with my teammates so that’s the downside. I literally have no idea what they’re working on because I don’t really have a way to stop by their offices. Our work can be done independently, but I do miss the ability to go into someone’s office just to bounce things off of them. I did suggest we use something like Slack so we can have a more casual vehicle to communicate than email or phone, but that didn’t go anywhere. (My office is glacial on adopting new technology.) I do occasionally travel to Other Office and I make a point to stop by and say hi to my teammates. They’re all great people and we get along. I just wish there was a more casual communication set up with them.

    4. JessicaTate*

      Agree with the “Visibility” comment. And setting up those expectations / norms verbally in advance. Something like: “I’m always on Skype throughout the day. Think of it like popping your head in my office to say, ‘Do you have a minute?’ if we were in the same place.”

      Similarly, get comfortable with video-conference, and use it (even before it feels comfortable – you’ll get there eventually). It’s hugely helpful at relationship-building and connecting for the non-verbal communication (and accountability for multi-tasking). But people resist it if they haven’t done it. If a company has a commitment to dispersed teams, it needs to cultivate a culture where hopping on video becomes the norm and expectation.

    5. SarahKay*

      My role means I have a remote manager (I’m now on my second, after the first retired) and I found that meeting them in person, if there’s an opportunity to do so, was really helpful.
      I’d had my current manager for about six months and then met him, literally just for fifteen minutes, as he passed through my office on his way to another site, but that fifteen minutes of casual non-work chat really turned him into a person for me, in a way that calls and emails hadn’t quite managed to do.

      I also work with an off-site team and I have a weekly short call set up with them, framed as an opportunity for them or me to bring up any current or upcoming events / tasks we want to discuss. The first three minutes of the call are really just chit-chat, and again, it just helps to smooth our working relationship. There are times when I’m putting together an email reminding them of a procedure (yet again!) and it’s a lot easier to remember that the person I’m sending it to is a real person, who will be hurt if I’m rude, if I was just discussing our upcoming holidays with that person earlier in the day.

    6. Ali G*

      I led a remote team of 4. What worked for us was on Monday’s we did a group conference call to set the week. On Friday’s I did 1 on 1 calls with each person to check in/provide feedback. Also I had a policy – after hours if you email me, it will be dealt with the next day. If you NEED me, call or text. It worked very well. But you have to make an effort to check in, because it is very easy to think “no new is good news” when something could actually be going awry.

  155. Murilegus*

    Long time reader, first time commenter, and looking to poll the hive mind since I’m at a loss as a newish team lead. (In my company, team leads are a hybrid role that are meant to be a stepping stone to either more technical positions or management. I’m coming at this from the technical side of things, and very much in over my head with some of the leadership stuff since I’m newer to the workforce and lack experience both in what’s normal and in being in charge of people.)

    Right now, I’m on a team with twenty people, $counterPart (who was demoted into the role from being a supervisor), $boss, and $grandBoss. We’ve currently got the team in a training class for an industry cert 2-3 days a week, with half in class in the morning and the other half in the afternoon. This… This is not going well. Going into this, team leadership had assumed that we’d be able to load-balance, and keep everybody afloat. In practice we’re finding that people are struggling to get their work done without 5-10 hours of OT, let alone help out anyone else on the team.

    Boss and GrandBoss are asking for suggestions on how to alleviate some of the pain associated with the sudden influx of omgwthbbq. I’m trying to find solutions that don’t involve people giving 120% 50+hour weeks for six weeks straight, since this a lot to ask/generally not expected from people at the level of my team, but am at a loss since we can’t pull in more people to assist. (This is influenced by my coming at this from the “work smarter, not harder, lazy programmer” school of thought.) $countePart seems to think that people just need to give 120%, since she’s always “giving 110% for the team” and aggressively trying to promote the idea we just need more hustle.

    Other possibly relevant points: Yes, everyone volunteered for this cert. No, I don’t think anyone realized going into this how much of an added workload it would be. We’re in IT. $counterPart and I are from fairly different walks of life, which is definitely skewing the perspectives here.

    I’m sure there’s a middle ground here, but I’m not sure where/what it is. Help?

    1. animaniactoo*

      What’s in the current workload that could be moved back until team is further through training?

      Because honestly, the idea that people would be able to spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their available working time on the cert training AND keep up with current workload was a fantasy.

      If they were able to do that, your team would be quite a bit overstaffed – more than just fail-safe coverage overstaffed.

      I think the middle ground is that people expect to put in 2-5 hours of overtime until the cert is done, and the company looks to alleviate the workload by moving stuff that can wait down the field. People will still need to be playing some catchup for awhile, but they’ll have the room to breathe that they need right now.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Sorry, bad math there on my part. It’s 1/4 to 1/3. But still more than they should expect to reasonably be available from every single person in the department at the same time without making other adjustments.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is it possible to triage this? Identify critical, high, medium, low priority tasks and decide as a leadership group what kind of extended turn around times are viable for each during the time that training is going on? (Maybe critical tickets stay ASAP, but High goes from 4 hour turn around to 8, medium 8 to 12, etc)

      Also, do you do kanban for ticket/resource management? If not, would that help here? Prioritize the backlog most urgent to least and everyone just grabs the next ticket off the top as they finish their current work. Maybe that would help?

      Maybe identify a list points re: status/progress that needs to be maintained on each ticket so if current owner needs to drop it to go to training, it can be handed off quickly and easily because the details on status/what’s already done are already included for the next team member grab the baton and run with it?

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        But yeah, the team has to push some stuff off, as animaniactoo. You can’t decrease everyone’s available work hours by half and still expect the same amount of work to get done. So your leadership team needs to get real honest about what the priorities are and which are able to wait. And something WILL have to wait.

    3. CAA*

      Does the entire team have to be working on this cert right now? It sounds like each person is spending 8 to 12 hours per week in class. What if only 5 people were spending that time? Then you’d basically be down by 1 to 1.5 people, which you should be able to handle during the normal course of business anyway. It will take 4x longer for everyone to get certified this way, but people only have to work 5% harder during that time.

      Other options are:
      – reduce the amount of work that’s getting done by prioritizing some tasks into a “not now” bucket
      – make the work take less time by reducing the amount of depth, oversight, cross checking, documentation, testing, etc. (whatever is relevant)
      – bring in more people to help, temps, people who already have the cert, etc. You said this isn’t possible, but make sure you’ve researched bringing in outsiders as well as insiders. Also consider hiring some interns. Yes, they need mentorship, but depending on your situation it may be less than you think.
      – tell people that the company over committed when they allocated them for training, so they just aren’t going to be able to get this cert on company time but you’ll reimburse expenses if they take the classes and tests on their own time
      – finally … ask the team for their ideas on how to solve the problem!

  156. Kathleen_A*

    This is a touchy issue, but since it doesn’t affect me personally, maybe I can frame it relatively neutrally. I hope so because I’m really interested in how it strikes non-involved parties. It involves that thing all sexist bosses fear, which is: A woman gets married, becomes pregnant, claims she plans to continue working after the baby, and then changes her mind. But there is an interesting twist.

    “Carol” worked here for several years, and during most of that time, she was also working on her bachelor’s degree, for which she got company educational assistance. She got the degree, and then she got married, and then she got pregnant, all within a few months.

    Shortly after that, she got another job (last year was quite a year for Carol!), one that was, in theory, much closer to her degree expertise, and gave her notice. Nobody seemed to have any problem with that.

    But there was apparently something really wrong with the job – I never heard what – because just a couple of weeks later, she asked to have her job here back. And they gave it to her. I wondered about that a bit, honestly, because the problems that led her to look for a new job in the first place were still here. But she worked through the remainder of her pregnancy, and then went on maternity leave.

    She was due back in a couple of weeks, but she just informed TPTB that she is instead going to stay home with the new baby.

    Now, I don’t have a huge problem with any of this, but I don’t know, it doesn’t seem quite fair to put the organization and your coworkers through all that trouble – coping with her leaving the first time, taking her back full-time, covering for her during maternity leave and then, just as things are finally about to go back to normal, changing her mind and beginning the turmoil all over again.

    Her family is more important than her job, there’s nothing the organization can do about it anyway, and I do understand why a new mom might decide not to leave her new baby. But this just seems a little more…disruptive and possibly even deliberate than the usual “New mom doesn’t want to leave her new baby” situation. Did she come back intending all along to work here just long enough to get paid through the remainder of her pregnancy and maternity leave? Is it wrong for me to wonder that? Probably. :-) But as I said earlier, it doesn’t affect me personally, so I would like to hear your opinion.

    1. Hmmm*

      I think quite a few places end up taking back maternity leave pay if you decide not to come back afterwards. I think that’s a fair response to a situation like this. It acknowledges that while changing your mind is understandable, ultimately the reason they were paying for your leave is because you were going to continue to be an employee.

      Part of doing business is that people might leave after education assistance/maternity leave whatever, but I think it’s not totally unusual to have stipulations in place so at least less money is lost. She might have done it on purpose, she might just be flaky, it’s possible she didn’t expect it… who knows. I’d say that’s just part of doing business, minus the fact that depending on how long you stay it’s understandable you’d have to pay back for educational assistance or maternity leave.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        There are such stipulations for education assistance – I think you have to work a full year after getting the assistance. (That rule was put in place after a pretty high-level VP got assistance for his extremely expensive MBA and left just a couple of months after getting the degree.) But I’ve never heard of a similar restriction for maternity leave.

        1. Hmmm*

          I believe this came up in a question on the blog or in the open thread recently and people chimed in saying that was the case places, but it’s not something I’ve ever looked into personally.

    2. DCGirl*

      Oh, gosh, who knows what was going on in her mind? I don’t have kids, so I can’t say that I’ve experienced when the day comes and you have to go back to work and just can’t do it. On the other hand, I’ve heard a former coworker brag about deliberately stringing the company along as she had no intention of coming back to work. It would help immensely if we had a better health care system in this country where people feel stuck in jobs they didn’t like soley because of the need to have health insurance in the face of a health issue.

      I worked at one job where I guy left, loudly and with something of a scorched-earth approach, and then came crawling back a year later after being “laid off” from his new job. I think that the reality was that he realized that the source of the problems he had in the workplace was himself, and he decided to come back to where they’d been tolerated by an indifferent manager for 12 years.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, I just try to see it as people making the best choices they can in a system that is bad for families. She may have desperately needed to keep her insurance, for example, even if she knew she wanted to stay at home.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      To me, the two sides of the company’s coin are:

      Heads: This is a cost of doing business.
      Tails: We essentially counter-offered to keep someone who was ready to leave; AAM tells us the odds are they are out of this role within the year anyhow.

      How long you have to work after getting the company-funded degree is often covered legally in contracts, and can be left there. It could be she’s burning her bridge and her references will describe her as flighty; it’s possible that in their view life happens, people leave, nothing exciting to see here.

    4. Observer*

      What makes you think she got paid throughout her maternity leave?

      As for deliberate – what do you mean by that? She left knowing she was going to come back? Why would she do that? It’s disruptive to you, sure, but disruptive to her, too. As for the possibility that she knew that she wasn’t coming back after maternity leave, that’s more possible. But I don’t see how any of the back story makes it more likely. In fact it makes it LESS likely in my opinion, because asking for your job back is not great, but if she knew that she was leaving after the baby anyway, she might be more likely to tough it out.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I’m pretty sure she did get paid. We do offer paid maternity leave, and I would imagine she wouldn’t have bothered to come back if she weren’t going to get that benefit.

        What I wonder – I wouldn’t go so far as to say I suspect it because to me it just seems like a possibility – is if she came back specifically because there were problems with the other company’s maternity leave policy. In other words, “I left Company A, which offers X weeks of paid leave and Y weeks of unpaid leave, for a new opportunity with Company B. But it turns out Company B has a much stingier maternity leave policy. So what I’m going to do is go back to Company A, if they’ll have me, work there until just before my maternity leave expires, and then resign.”

        But of course, it could just be that despite the complications and the back story, she just really, really, really wants to stay home with that new baby. It’s happened with many new mothers over the years. I don’t know the truth, and I probably never will. I just wondered how the situation struck the thoughtful AAM commentariot.

        1. Thlayli*

          Probably she did. Fair play to her. The system screws mothers, good for her trying to get what she can!

    5. It’s all good*

      I never thought I’d want to be a stay at home mom until after I had my first born. No one was more shocked than me.

  157. sunbittern*

    Last day at the job I really don’t like! Does anyone else have strange coworker experiences when leaving a job? For me, there is a person who has barely acknowledged I am leaving, and keeps piling really intense projects (for someone about to leave) on me. It almost feels punitive? I am the lowest on the ladder in this office, and excited to move into a position with an organization where I have more autonomy over my workload and scope – no more emotional requests for highly specific office supplies or being asked to do personal snack shopping for one of the partners.

    1. fposte*

      At once job, when I announced I was leaving, a woman I’d been friendly with there (my best work friend’s other best work friend, basically) started muttering under her breath at me whenever she walked by my desk. It was super-weird and I mentioned it to the HR person (who I was friendly with) at my exit interview. Our mutual friend suggested that she was more complicated than I had realized and that she had an abandonment thing going on.

    2. Dinosaur Kale*

      One of my coworkers legit just stopped talking to me when I put in my two weeks. We still work in the same circles (both at nonprofits doing very similar work), and even when I see her at events she barely acknowledges me. I just see it as reassurance that I was really supposed to be out of that place!

      I hope your time before you finally get to leave is bearable!

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I’ve had it go both oh, you’re leaving, no more work for you and oh, you’re leaving, here have all the work!

      When I left last job BossLady sniffled at me whenever she put projects on my desk…she cried when I gave my two weeks. She also mostly refused to acknowledge that I was leaving (wouldn’t let me transition anything over, refused to have me train who was taking over my responsibilities) but also made snitty comments about me leaving (“Grass isn’t always greener, EC!!”) and ramped up her weird comments about my appearance/health.

      They just hired someone to be in that position and she actually texted me to ask if I wanted to come back. Uh, nope, I’m good.

      People are weird.

    4. Bea*

      When I left my last job, they had me doing standard day to days and other crap instead of working up transition docs. I didn’t do any docs because they didn’t ask and ef them.

      It was all the basics like “train this temp in the warehouse” basics. It sealed why I left in the first place.

      When I left the job before that they wanted me to document all my job specifics in detail to look back on. They were smart good people, go figure.

    5. sunbittern*

      I figured I was not alone, but it is comforting to hear other people’s strange stories about coworker behavior when leaving! One of the partners also didn’t acknowledge I was leaving for 3 days (while simultaneously largely ignoring me)…and I gave a three week notice, but they didn’t tell the rest of the staff until I had one week left so it kind of made me look like a jerk? This past week has been the busiest I’ve ever been here (which is one of the reasons I looked for another job…I was bored pretty much daily), and I STILL have time to read AAM and a lot of the comments every day ;)

  158. Fresh Faced*

    I wish more interviewers took the “interviewing is a two way street” message seriously. I had 3 very different interviews this week (also giving myself a high 5 for 3 interviews!). The one I just came out of was the only one that seemed genuinely excited about my work but also excited about theirs! They were glad to talk about their projects, where they want to be, what the teams like, their processes but the other 2 it was like taking blood from a stone to try and get info from their side. Not to mention other flags (40 minutes late to an interview, and a “can’t discuss our salary range but I’ll be happy to ask for yours.”) I know which one I’m hoping for!

    1. irene adler*

      “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” – Maya Angelou

      I think that applies to companies as well.

  159. Trixie*

    Question for those executive staff support in higher education. What do you like and dislike about the role? Considering transition with in the school. Also, is your workday 7.5 hours plus hour for lunch? Curious how common this or if we are just spoiled.

    1. Kate Daniels*

      The work schedule for staff support at our university is also 7.5 hours + an hour for lunch… so, something like 8:30-5 pm with an hour for lunch within that time frame. I have a couple friends in New York City with similar positions (working at two different universities there) who each have a seven hour schedule plus an hour for lunch—super envious of them!

    2. Bigglesworth*

      I wasn’t executive staff (student services coordinator/admin), but my typical day was 9-6 with an hour for lunch.

    3. Assistant to the Dean*

      We actually have a 7 hour plus one hour for lunch workday, 8:30-4:30. It is one of the reasons I love my job!

      I recently moved into a position in a new college my university has created. I really gel with the Dean and I love that I get to come in on the ground floor and help make decisions that will shape the school for years to come. I’ve also found that because I already have a relationship with the other departments/schools it has made the transition into the new position extremely smooth.

      1. Trixie*

        This is the type of transition I would like to make. I am currently in HR (recruiting) while also providing executive support for our CHRO/leadership team. Between both roles, I have developed relationships with various departments (admins to Chairs) and feel this would be beneficial to a full time executive assistant role. In both capacities, I am handling confidential materials or involved with sensitive matters on a regular basis. I know my CHRO/team are very happy with my work but may have to go outside department for raise. I am underpaid by $10k compared to other departments/roles across campus. I am looking at other campuses as well but just made my two years here and qualify for tuition concession. Very tempting to stay just for that.

  160. Need ethical & practical advice from seasoned professionals!*

    Need some advice about a challenging ethical and professional situation. I work at a small company. The CEO/founder had an unexpected, major stroke last year (healthy woman, early forties). She was on a medical leave for almost a year, but returned to part-time work recently.

    Meanwhile, the department I work in lost its Director a few months ago, so in the interim I’ve been working as the only FT person on this team with additional guidance from a Director of a related team. 2 months ago, company leadership decided (in a surprising twist) to have me no longer working under the Director of the other team, and instead to have the founder who had a stroke begin her time back at the office as the new director of my team (becoming my new boss, too).

    To add complexity, she/the new “interim director” does not have any professional experience in my department. As weeks go by I’m also starting to think she is not fully ready to work in such a demanding role. This is not meant to be mean or judgemental, just listing the facts: she has some trouble viewing her computer screen, trouble with talking, can only discuss projects at a high level, cannot keep up with my emails and doesn’t read them fully unless I specifically tell her/ask her to read them, is focused on 1 project regardless of my many other responsibilities, and only works 30% of the time. Because the company views her as the current director, she’s now allowed to make big decisions for our team despite a lack of expertise in the field. Leadership and HR did not consult with me at all before making this decision for her to direct this department and also did not provide a very satisfactory explanation about the decision after the fact, or its impact on my team and the company in general. It was more of a “this is happening now” type situation :/

    I feel heartbroken for my boss in general (and her family that I know personally), which makes this super complicated from a moral standpoint. While I’m thrilled she is recovering, I feel that she is currently better suited to a more hands-off role. The rest of our company directors work full-time, are involved in projects and help with executing those projects, provide regular hands-on management for their reports, and have substantial prior experience working in the teams they direct. Even though I’ve taken on tons of new responsibilities after the last Director left, I’m still a more junior person and I’m severely lacking any sort of mentorship, proper management, clear career progression, or well-informed strategy. It’s also harder for me to prove my value when my own director does not fully understand what I do and only witnesses a portion of it.

    – Do I leave? I’m strongly considering seeking a more senior and higher paying position elsewhere that truly values my work with a better company culture. I also don’t know how much more I can work in this environment, where senior leadership is making questionable business decisions.
    – Do I stay? If I stay, should I speak up to HR about my director’s health issues impacting my work and how do I do that with kindness and respect? I’m young but I completely understand the harsh challenges and unfortunate biases that people who have severe medical issues or disabilities face in the workplace. I don’t want to be viewed as discriminating against our company’s founder/my interim director. At the same time, it’s unfair that I’m the one in the entire company who is being most negatively affected by this, and if this continues for a significant time our company could be hurt too.
    – Should I say nothing, and roll with the punches hoping that soon enough (could be in weeks or months) we will hire another person into my team to help the situation?

    What would you do? How do I navigate this political / moral / professional maze?

    Thanks in advance… !

    1. Temperance*

      I would seek the more senior/higher paying position and plan your exit strategy. There’s really no great way for you to bring up the director’s issues, especially if she’s a beloved long-term employee. This is especially true since it seems like a lot of her issues are directly related to the stroke, and even thought it seems incredibly true, some people (read: those not impacted by her inability to do her job) will think that you’re mean, and it can come back to bite you in the ass.

      I would also help where you can, and let her fail where you can. Get out before she destroys your team’s reputation.

    2. fposte*

      I think this one could make a column on its own, because it’s pretty thorny and there’s no real bad guy.

      So who counts as company leadership here, and what is your relationship with them? Is the director of the related team, whom you’ve worked with already, in there? My inclination would be to talk to them, especially that director you’ve worked for, rather than to HR, unless HR is already up in that mix in your company culture. If you have a suggestion, whether it be hiring somebody ASAP or hiring an EA for the CEO in the meantime, offer it. But I think you may be on the spot in seeing stuff other people can wave away (I’m wondering if the CEO got moved to your department in hope that would be a softer on-ramp, in fact) and it’s more useful to communicate on the situation early rather than late. It’s not fair to set either you or the recovering CEO up for failure.

      I wouldn’t cancel my search for another senior position, because I agree with you that this isn’t a good sign and I think it’s going to be hard to fix this. I don’t see any reason why you have to stay and keep hoping it will change as Doing Too Much becomes your official expectation. I just think it’s worth a conversation along the way.

  161. Drowning*

    I work in an administrative/receptionist position at a university. Recently after all 6 of my student workers left summer, and since that my workload doubled. Our office is very busy and summer does not slow down for us, in many ways the work has increased and I feel like I’m drowning. This is exacerbated by work put on me to plan events for another department that we are “co-sponsoring”. This was a complete surprise and adds so much to my plate (it’s ordering the food, publicity, and working the event usually-which goes until 9 pm).

    I brought this up with my boss and her solution was to give a part time employee more hours and station them at the front desk. This sounds great… except the new colleague is only here 7 hours/ week and I’m responsible for all of her training and delegating tasks. She is brand new to the front desk and there is a lot to learn in my position.

    My supervisor is also her supervisor, but all training has really been left to me. I am even expected to know and track her schedule. My supervisor really thinks all of my problems have been solved, but she has really just added even more work to my plate and when I tried to address this the automatic conclusion is reached that I’m complaining about my peer’s performance. That is not the issue at all! My peer is wonderful and learning very fast and will be helpful in a few weeks.

    I also can’t help but feel insulted at times recently because my boss routinely says I am expected to “just” teach her things- she “just” needs to answer phones and “just” greet people. I feel this wording undermines my work and all the knowledge needed to properly assist our clientele and direct to the appropriate staff member. She also keeps popping up to ask if I have taught the new person things, when I say no, we haven’t been able to she acts like I’m behind. My peer has only worked in the front 10 hours total so far, there is only so much that can be taught and learned! (rant done)

    Could other readers please provide some perspective, is it normal to expect a peer to do complete training of a new employee (and I mean complete! they have not met once since she moved to the front)? Am I being ridiculous?
    Also, any other ideas of how I can address that this is not a solution to my being overwhelmed?

    1. Bea*

      Your supervisor is an idiot and you are not wrong to feel all the stress right now. I had this similar situation, where I was expected to do training for my support staff while doing my over-full time job and a lot of tasks that the “would be CSR lead” would be doing once a person was trained…if that was ever going to be possible.

      You are on a ship without a real captain and you are understaffed, that’s the absolute worst and I’m so sorry that you’re in that position :( I can’t give you much more than just my understanding and sympathy.

      I have had only assholes downplay my duties and act like they’re “super easy and doable tasks”. I couldn’t even get a person to answer a phone and take a proper message, sigh. It’s not “rocket science” but it does take skills that not every person gets it.

    2. BRR*

      I there are situations where a coworker does all the training. It depends what the manager knows and what seems the most particle.

      Also I hate the “just” thing. I had a coworker do this. I wanted to scream, “would you tell your surgeon to do a simple brain surgery?!?!”

  162. Duffman*

    I got so frustrated yesterday that I cried at work for the first time ever, so this week has been a shit show.

      1. Duffman*

        Basically an issue I did not know how to resolve and wasn’t really part of my job duties. A person on my team forwarded me an email copying a bunch of higher up people asking me how to fix an issue. It was an issue that our team does not handle and the person who sent it to me (and has the same job).

        I replied, in an email just to them, that this isn’t something we handle (and they should know this since we are in the same job) and gave a suggestion of who to contact. They replied back to me and copied every person imaginable about an hour later asking if there was an update.

        At this point, I just sent off an email to the person I had told them to contact initially and thought that would be done. I responded with, “I’m not sure of the answer but I’m trying to find out.”

        Then they started blowing up my IM about how IMPORTANT it was. I didn’t know what to do at that point since I had already told them I was trying to find the answer (and since I didn’t know) and I just broke down.

        1. only acting normal*

          A judicious use of reply all on your part is required. Something simple, neutral and helpful like “Eejit, This is not something our team handles. However, if you speak directly to Responsible Person, they should be able to assist you. Regards Duffman”

          For some unfathomable reason of their own they are trying to throw you under a bus. Don’t let them.

        2. 653-CXK*

          Perhaps something like this would help?

          “Dear All: it is my understanding that you have been asking me about an issue that you want answers to. As I’ve stated, this is not a situation we handle. While it is important for you to find an answer, it is equally important that you respect my responses and actions, and not inundate me with escalating requests. If I find the answer, I will respond you as soon as possible. If I cannot find an answer, I will also respond and direct you to the people that can handle this. Duffman.”

          This does two things: (1) you’re telling them you don’t know and are trying to find out an appropriate answer, and (2) to back off in the most business-like way possible.

          These lazy jerks could have avoided all the drama by accepting that you don’t know and leaving it at that.

  163. Manatees are cool*

    I seem to have become one of my work’s go-to people to work on holidays. I have worked the last three bank holidays and Easter Sunday, and now they are asking me to work the next bank holiday even though I booked it off a considerable amount of time in advance. I’m going to put my foot down and tell them I’m not working on that day, just because I am unmarried and childless doesn’t mean that I don’t have any relatives to spend the day with. They haven’t actually outright rejected my request for time off, it’s status is still “unreviewed”.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Put your foot down on the time off.

      Some people do like picking up all the bank holidays–either for the extra pay, or because they like being in an empty office with no meetings or supervisors. So be clear whether one of those is you, or you really don’t want to work holidays and the recent string was a fluke that you want to remain a one-off.

    3. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      Ugh! My husband’s old job used to do this to him, because we don’t have children. His manager would always schedule him work on Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Easter Sunday, and other holidays using the excuse that he didn’t have children to spend those holidays with. Tell your manager no! Your marital status or whether or not have you children has no bearing on the fact that you are a human being and that you deserve a holiday off as much as anyone else.

  164. Anon in higher ed*

    I work in an academic university. There is no official mechanism to give feedback going up the chain. The head of our department/unit no longer comes into work, always skips meetings, delegates everything that normally should be handled by her to underlings, etc. Basically, she’s not doing her job at all. But her boss is the dean of the university, so there’s no one really overlooking whether she’s actually working. Our unit has become dysfunctional with low morale.

    Is there a good way to somehow bring this to the attention of the dean or people outside of our department?

    1. fposte*

      Do you mean dean of the school? Generally the whole university doesn’t have a dean; deans are lower-level, even below chancellors if you’ve got them. The dean is usually head of arts and sciences, or the business school, or whatever within it. They’re likely to be more accessible than actual university presidents. Sometimes also there are relevant associate deans, like a dean of academic affairs, who might be good people to talk to.

      However, if the department chair is still doing the teaching and research parts of her job and the professors aren’t pissed at her, it’s not likely people are going to pay much attention to a complaint. Department chair is a frequently hated position for a reason, and having somebody duck the admin in it isn’t uncommon. If you can find a way that this is messing with the students or snarling up the money, that’s likelier to get you some traction.

      1. Anon in higher ed*

        Sorry, yes, I did mean the dean of the school (it’s a professional school within a larger university system). And thank you! Hopefully it will come out in course evaluations that it wasn’t a good semester because she delegated a lot of her class sessions to those below her even though her name is still the official instructor of record, though unfortunately I don’t think course evaluations carry much weight around here.

  165. blergarg*

    I’ve been very unhappy at my current job. So much, that I was ready to give notice this week. I work closely with students in my role, and we’re about to start the most hands-on intensive part of our year, so the earliest I’d feel comfortable leaving is August, after our main event is over. Otherwise, my colleagues would have to absorb my work, and it would burn bridges with my manager for sure. So I’d stick it out, but be very unhappy. I’ve told my manager a lot that I’m unhappy and want to move out, but she wants to think about a new role (that I’d have to push) once the summer is over.

    Then, a person in a different position at our company gave notice. Her bosses are eager to fill this position internally. They approached me about filling the role (as did the woman who quit), and I love the sound of it. They want me to start as soon as I can, though they know it’s hard with my current responsibilities. My concern is that my current manager is very unlikely to ‘let’ me leave until August, but this role needs to be filled ASAP.

    They asked me to tell my manager that I’m interested in this new role, and that I’m willing to work part of the summer. I wonder if I should ask them to instead do that negotiating for me? What do I do if my manager flat out refuses to let me move on from my role? Can she do that? Do you have any other advice here? Is it possible to do this without burning bridges?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Swing for the role and try to get it. Colleagues absorbing your work when you leave is a normal thing that happens in business. Because this is an internal transfer, they probably DO need your boss to do some version of giving her okay rather than rescue you while your boss clings to your ankles and begs them not to take you, and whether you or she negotiate the transfer is very office dependent.

  166. Cat Herder*

    Trying to be objective and nonsexist here, but…

    I will be reviewing the status of in-work documents next week with the project staff. I am the tech writer, and a woman. In pulling completion stats, only the women on the engineering team complete their work on time and deliver ahead of schedule. Consistently, for each task assigned.

    Every man on the team is months late in providing a draft, and what they do provide is woefully inadequate.

    My question: how can I better engage the engineers to help them?

    I’ve provided detailed outlines per the specs we have to follow, which they ignore in favor of – “oh, I found this other thing online and I’m using that.” I’ve had one on one meetings where we put the doc up on the screen and map out what data is needed, and who can provide it. I’ve asked them to keep the drafts on the internal team server so I can track progress and edit as we go, but they keep it on their desktop. Due dates are meaningless. And so on.

    I’ve worked on a lot of different teams with the occasional difficult person and always managed to figure out a way to work with them. An entire team? I’m stymied. I can’t figure out if there’s a sexist factor in play, or just random chance that the assigned staff on the project are like this. We are in tech, and the men outnumber the women about 4 to 1.

    1. Leave it to Beaver*

      Are there consequences to missing a deadline? If they’re not penalized for missing a deadline then they may not take deadlines seriously. (Which is most obviously wrong, but different motivations work for different people)

      1. Cat Herder*

        No consequences, although there should be. I’m not the project lead. I have the responsibility to meet the deadlines, but not the authority…

      2. Lil Fidget*

        I find that in fields that are hard on women, the women who are there will often be the hardest working employees – they have to be, because any small thing would be used against them. The men aren’t held to such a high bar, that’s why they know they can miss deadlines and screw around.

        1. Thlayli*

          Yup. I’m an engineer and I have to say that every single female engineer I’ve worked with has been awesome. I think it’s not so much that we are held to higher standards, it’s that engineering is a “default” course for lots of guys who couldn’t think of anything else to do, whereas women only choose to become engineers if they really want to be engineers. Only about 10% of engineers in my country are women.

  167. LQ*

    I want to ask a question about …violence in language at work.
    The kind I’m talking about here specifically is done casually, clearly without intent to follow through. I’ve mostly heard it from women. But sometimes from men (my experience was with men who worked in construction saying it). This is stuff ranging from kicking someone’s ass to more aggressive stuff. It’s nearly always said as a way to express frustration, and generally (I suspect) as a way to invoke a combination of levity and seriousness. (I’m really mad and frustrated but I know that isn’t how I’m supposed to be at work so I’m going to make a joke of it.)

    It feels really juvenile and I kind of want to say “stop and use your words”. (One of the biggest offenders is my little step sister so, I can totally say that to her, and we as a family have paused to consider how that kind of language effects my nieces and nephews. Which is great. The other is someone who is on another team who really wants to get into a leadership role and be seen as leadership material, but does stuff like this and other things that feel really inappropriate. I’m not entirely sure I can really sit her down and talk to her at this point. (She may at some point become one of my direct reports, and she’s really excellent so I’d be thrilled, but I think this needs to be addressed.))

    Am I over reacting about this feeling juvenile and immature as a way to manage problems or even joke around creating comradery? If it always seemed like a joke and nothing but a joke it might be different. But it always seems to have a tinge of the person being actually frustrated or angry (often very reasonably) at the situation.

    1. fposte*

      I think this is an “it depends,” and some of it is a taste call. I don’t think it’s about juvenile or not juvenile; it’s about whether it’s considered appropriate in your workplace, whether the frequency is out of hand, and whether you’re going beyond standard hyperbole in worrying ways. “I’m so going to kick his ass” would be a tad out of line at my current workplace but not in past ones.

      In your position, I wouldn’t bring it up with somebody I wasn’t directly supervising unless I knew for a fact that this was a behavior that was actively hurting her in the workplace. It sounds like a lot of this is your strong preference, and while it’s not unreasonable, that’s not enough to make it a piece of guidance for somebody you don’t supervise.

      1. Lizzy*

        I dunno… saying you’re going to kick someone’s ass is more than preference of language… that’s inappropriate, for almost any work situation. (I mean, if you were a boxer or wrestler, it makes sense. Other than that??? No.)
        I would address it as “hey, I know you’re just letting off steam, but that type of language and phrasing could really rub some people the wrong way. I totally get it – this situation sucks! – but you may want to be aware of how your words come across to others.”

        1. fposte*

          And I’m saying YMMV; I’ve been in workplaces where saying “Somebody needs to kick Compliance’s ass” would be perfectly acceptable. It’s not literal, any more than “these deadlines are killing us” is literal.

        2. LQ*

          The wording on this is good. I’m not entirely sure I can make the right impact yet, but this is helpful to think about, thank you!

        3. Courageous cat*

          Hmm, I can’t think of a single place I’ve ever worked at that something like “I’m going to kick your ass” would be taken poorly. I think it varies very strongly but in less uptight work cultures, something like that would typically be fine. Of course, I guess if it were said with 100% seriousness, that would be different.

      2. LQ*

        I know that the appearance of immaturity is hurting her, but I don’t know that I can reveal that I know that. I’ve been trying to help her out around the corners where it makes sense. And I’ve been trying to support and mentor her but she seems to have a fairly “I know it all” attitude, which is also part of what isn’t helping. And I think those two pieces (the overly casual language including this piece that incorporates violence and the attitude) are what’s being called immature. (We aren’t a super formal workplace but we are a bit more buttoned up than that.)

        1. fposte*

          If it’s part of an “I don’t bother noticing that I’m out of step and wouldn’t care if I did” approach, I definitely agree that that’s immature. It sounds like you’re not likely to have much impact until you have supervisory leverage, though, so I’d wait until then, or at least until that was a carrot you could explicitly offer and could guide her toward getting.

          1. LQ*

            I think this is right, but at least it’s helped me form my thoughts around it a little better as I hopefully get toward that point.

            Thank you!

    2. Thlayli*

      I think you’re overreacting but without more examples it’s hard to tell. Kicking ass is such a common term I wouldn’t even notice it. Eg “I’m gonna kick this excel files ass” would be totally acceptable imo.

      Something like “I hate this report so much I want to kill the person who wrote it and burn down their house” Would obviously be way out of order.

      It’s pretty common on sites like tumblr to use really obviously ott statements like that as a humourous way of expressing like or dislike, but it’s not appropriate in work.

      1. LQ*

        It is more like I’m going to kick the person who made this excel files ass. I think it’s that it’s usually directed to a person, not like an object, that makes it feel a little out of touch to me.

        I get that it’s a way of expressing humor, but it just is a small element that adds up to a larger picture. If this was the only thing it wouldn’t be such a big deal. So it’s sort of helpful to think about it that way too.
        Thank you!

  168. Kate Daniels*

    I’m kind of bummed my workplace isn’t letting us leave early today. In the past, we’ve always been allowed to, and it’s a nice, tiny thing that makes staff feel appreciated, but they’ve largely stopped this practice over the past year.

    2. Cruciatus*

      Yeah, I hear that. The power went out in the area for an hour and I was hoping the director would be like “it’s beautiful out–go on and get out of here!” But, alas. And the power came back on. He’s not a jerk or anything, but who doesn’t love an early day? Even my old department that was toxic had us getting out early once in a while! I miss it (but nothing else…).

    3. Jennifer*

      We get to leave early once every few day-before-Thanksgiving/Christmas, and that’s it. God, I wish we could have left today, I think a third of the org is out anyway.

  169. How to stop a long-running meeting?*

    And I mean “long-running” both in the time allotted for it–a weekly hour & a half meeting–and in company longevity.

    TL;DR: How have you successfully changed or outright busted up a long-running, largely inefficient meeting?

    Details:
    I was recently brought over to a new department that is made up of at least four separate, sprawling teams. This recurring “Leadership” meeting is allegedly so a parcel of people either with leadership titles or seen as leaders of their roles can update everyone on what they’re working on. (For example, I’m a team of one in what I do, so while I don’t have a lofty title, I’m still considered the heap big owner of the space.)

    I attended my first one recently. Here’s what I found:

    –It’s not just high-level stuff or the most important tasks; people go through EVERY aspect of their jobs. Every time. And some of those people like to hear themselves talk.
    –An admin was taking notes on her laptop. She also passed out 8.5″x 11″ pieces of paper labeled “Updates” with everyone’s names on it in a table; each row was empty. I saw people writing down what the others were saying, in these rows. I saw people writing down what they themselves were saying.
    –I almost said, “Are you kidding me?” but I refrained; it would have been written down.
    –I am now picturing stacks of these things in desk drawers from previous meetings.
    –If you have a weekly meeting, unless you’re at a pivotal part in whatever project you’re working on, chances are whatever you have to report is going to be very similar to what you said 7 days ago.

    I do hate going to meetings that talk about work rather than working on work, so I’m coming in with bias. Having this be a weekly hour & a half meeting adds to my ire.

    The potentially good news is that my boss, who also recently was brought over to became the head of this sprawling department (and with whom I’d worked in this company before), is interested in making this meeting more efficient.

    I’d love to hear examples of how to do this. Or of how to disband it outright. (Failing either of those, I’m stacking up iron-clad excuses for why I just can’t make it for the foreseeable future.)

    1. CatCat*

      Read the book “Death by Meeting.” It’s highly relevant to what you describe.

      Most of the book is a fictional parable about a company that has exactly the kind of meetings you describe, the problems that ripple across the company because of it, and how it’s ultimately resolved. The last bit of the book is more of the “how to” implement the changes that come up during the story. The story itself is kind of cheesy, but it’s simple and easy to read, and I reflected back a lot on what it said.

      Lynda.com also has a couple good courses on managing meetings and addressing common meeting problems. I got free access to the courses through my library.

      1. How to stop a long-running meeting?*

        Thanks, I hadn’t come across that one before. And I hadn’t even thought of turning to Lynda or similar!

    2. LQ*

      I think making it really clear about what the meeting is for. If it’s to update people, that’s often better done with email.
      I’d suggest making it about solving hard problems that are really at a leadership level, or discussing difficult to manage situations or the like. This would be something that might require work, and would be helpful to have different perspectives on that you couldn’t just do over email.
      Now…I’ve found these are really hard meetings to do and often people just stop showing up or magically have no problems (or it’s worse brother, have really petty minor problems, which are a harder problem to fix). Great. No need for the meeting unless someone, before the meeting, says they have something they would like to address with the group.
      If someone wants to spend that time talking about trivial problems you have to address that directly and tell them to deal with deciding which person takes off next friday on their own.

      1. How to stop a long-running meeting?*

        These ideas sound great. Even just reading about them fills me with hope. Thanks!

        And we even have an internal collaboration site that would be lovely for some of these things. It’s baked into our culture, yet I suspect it’s more baked into people to hang out and discuss all the things in person.

  170. Bigglesworth*

    Any tips on working in the US government as a legal intern? I just started on Monday and it has been a whirlwind of meetings and not understanding what is going on. It’s also my first legal job, so there’s also that. And tips or advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Quinoa*

      “it has been a whirlwind of meetings and not understanding what is going on”

      While I’m in the corporate sector, I’ve done my share of public service work, and in either situation, that sounds like pretty much the first week of any new job I’ve ever had. You’re essentially stepping into a situation where things are already in process, but you’re at the beginning. My strategy in these situations has always been to listen, ask questions and take copious notes. My first few weeks on a new job, I’m generally surrounded by sticky notes with Really Important Reminders on them. As I get into the process and learn the ins and outs, the sticky notes go away and there comes a moment when I’m finally on top of things and am not doing everything for the very first time. That will happen for you too.

      The other thing I’d recommend is regular check-ins with your mentor or supervisor. Use that time to make sure you’re on track and that you’re meeting expectations, as well as to get clarification around things that aren’t making sense or are still unclear. The great part about an internship is that you’re there to learn. Most supervisors get that and are keen to help you succeed.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you! Glad to hear that this is fairly normal for the first few weeks on the job. My last few jobs (retail, food service, and then admin in higher ed) didn’t require a lot of brain power and the stakes weren’t high if I did screw up. It’s a completely different feeling working as a newbie professional while still having prior work experience. On the one side, my boss and grand boss both have mentioned they have given me more work than any other recent interns they’ve had. On the other side side, it means I’m constantly asking questions. It’s an especially gray and murky area of law that’s under high scrutiny right now (governmental ethics), so the stakes are a bit high.

  171. Lizzy*

    I recently helped a friend update her resume and cover letter. She mentioned that I did a fantastic job, and that I should charge to do it (resume reviews / updates). Is this a thing??? Can I do this, legally??? If it is a “thing”, what is normal to charge? For reference, I don’t have any sort of background in HR or resume-building, but I do have very strong writing skills and have been told by MANY people that my resume/cover letter skills rock (thanks, AAM!)

    1. Reba*

      What do you mean, legally? Yes, this is totally a thing. Rates and the actual services vary a lot! But do some research and see if it appeals to you. Editing is totally a skill that you can get paid for.

      1. Lizzy*

        I guess I just never thought about it before! Do you have any idea on rates and whatnot?? I don’t want to come across like a pretentious ass who’s full of herself, but if I do it, I want to be paid appropriately.

  172. Vegetable Lasagna*

    What would you do if you are considering taking a management position and the team you’ll be managing has been managed by a boss that is afraid of conflict and wants everyone to be happy?I’m worried that just now implementing improvements is going to be met with resistance.

    1. Lizzy*

      Baby steps, and make it at least seem like you’re taking everyone’s thoughts into consideration. For example, if you’re wanting to completely overhaul the invoicing and payment system, start with the format of the invoice. Ask your staff what they like / dislike about the current invoice format so that you can “take their suggestions under consideration”.

      Wash, rinse, repeat :)

  173. KX*

    I was told by my manager that I would seem more collaborative if I spoke less authoritatively.

    1. Lizzy*

      Well, yeah. Anyone who agrees with others more and doesn’t seem like a leader is going to come across as more collaborative…

      Sounds like a load of crap. If you know your subject, why shouldn’t your speech reflect that??

      I probably shouldn’t say this. I might come across too authoritatively. *rolls eyes*

      1. Far more anon than usual*

        FWIW, I’m a woman and there are some women (and men) I’ve worked with who I’d describe as speaking too authoritatively. It’s less about being too authoritative as in confident than it is about a handful of behaviours:

        -They aren’t concise, and their over-explaining often comes across as lecturing
        -They rarely defer to others with similar expertise
        -They make a lot of statements and ask few (sincere-seeming) questions
        -They don’t directly engage with what other people say – in particular, they rarely if ever validate or affirm what other people have said in a group discussion, and will often just paraphrase what someone else previously said, giving them the last word
        -They come across as needing to have the first word among peers

        There are confident women SMEs who really know their stuff and also come across as collaborative, so this isn’t a gendered thing for me at least. They can get their point across without holding the floor or crowding other people out.

        1. LQ*

          I’m going to add to this behaviors that I’ve seen (and with dudes in my case, at least who I’m thinking of) of people who have been called out for not being collaborative enough and seeming too authoritative (though I think they are just jerks):
          – They make authoritative statements on things outside their lane
          – They argue with people who are the authorities in subjects outside their lane
          – They are visibly deciding what to say next rather than listening
          – They always jump in with a “no” over coworkers who have a similar level of expertise rather than waiting to hear it out (even when they are right this comes off bad)

          1. Far more anon than usual*

            Yeah, it’s a continuum from subtle-yet-impactful ways of messing with the give-and-take of group discussions all the way to outright jerkiness like you’re describing.

            On the subtle end, it could come off as nit-picky for a manager to call out someone’s random communication tics, so it’s just easier to use “too authoritative” as a catch-all. It’s not helpful to be on the receiving end of feedback that vague, though.

          1. Far more anon than usual*

            What a curious question. I’m actually from a part of the country where business communication’s typically more direct than where I live now. The few people I’m thinking of have communication styles that don’t read well here and would be out of place even in my relatively brusque hometown. I don’t think that there are regionalisms at play here.

    3. LCL*

      Ask him (I’m assuming him but I’ve been wrong before) what is the benefit to the company of you seeming more collaborative.

      1. KX*

        I am a woman and my manager is a woman.

        I am not in a collaborative role. There is no way you could even charitably describe what I do as collaborative.

        I do speak emphatically and in declarative sentences, and I am direct with strong opinions, and possibly stern, and this is my thing and my tone. But I don’t crowd others out, and I only speak up when it pertains to me. I don’t think anyone would call me mean. Nor would anyone say I was diplomatic. Whether someone would call me assertive, or aggressive, or abrasive would depend on them–but I would get it. People come to me for help a lot, and I always give it gladly, so I am at least somewhat approachable. Some people even really, really like me.

        This arose during a development conversation that I requested, in a private meeting. My manager must know that I am looking for another job, and gets notified when I apply for internal positions, so we were talking about how I have learned what I can from my position, and I am eager for a new position that allows me to actively collaborate with others, be creative (like, create my own solutions to problems I see, not writing or graphic design), and work independently/have responsibility/have some authority. We talked about things I could do to make myself more attractive to the company, or get notice, or improve my skills, et cetera. It went as well as it could (no one was defensive; I am skeptical she is in a position to help, but I believe she wants to and will as far as she is able). It was at the end of this conversation when she tried to turn it to how my job actually IS collaborative (it is not), and that if I wanted to be seen as a collaborative person I should speak less authoritatively.

        It made me sad, mostly. Not about myself, but about… well… there is probably nowhere for me to advance in this division, and I’ll likely have to go elsewhere, and it is a bummer.

        I will ponder my authoritativeness, and maybe do nothing about it. Probably do nothing about it. I might speak up less in meetings though. All we do in meetings is listen for new information and ask questions for clarification.

        1. LQ*

          It sounds like a good conversation. You said that your job is not collaborative, but your boss might want it to be, maybe that’s why she is bringing it up that way. (I was just at a conference that talked about pair writing and pair programming so you know, collaboration for all.)

          Is it possible she was really reaching for something because she doesn’t have much to say because there isn’t another job for you in your current division? I know my boss has really struggled for things in the past to bring up when I push for what could I be doing better to improve my skills. Sometimes he will come up with something that doesn’t really make sense because either he doesn’t want to talk about the real answer, or he is honestly not seeing where I could improve (not because it isn’t there, but…).

          I suspect it might be the declarative nature of your language and tone (just based on your post), especially if you are in an environment full of indirect conversationalists. (Things like I put on there, “I suspect it might be” when really “The declarative nature of your language in an environment with indirect speakers.” would be more direct and feel more authoritative. (Which, I’m not comfortable with because I sprinkled in all those extra words, though I wish I was. Now I’m going to go take notes on how you write and try to do better…))

          1. KX*

            Everything you suggest as possible I would say is possible. I know she wishes me well and wants to help. I appreciate everyone’s perspectives.

  174. Wish I was in Berk*

    In a training class and the only member of my sex. My boss who is the instructor asks me to go get the sandwich he/she ordered from the delivery driver. The class had not started and boss was simply sitting and waiting for the start time. I was pretty offended but curious to see if I am reading to much into it.

    1. Lizzy*

      Was your boss preparing for the class? If so, then it seems like a perfectly reasonable request. “I’m busy – can you do this really quick? Thanks!”

      1. Wish I was in Berk*

        Not busy enough that the trip to get the sandwich would have caused a delay. In addition I was across the room when the request was made and one of 3 individuals who didn’t have badge access to get back into where the training was being held

        2. Thlayli*

          Were you the bosses only employee there or were all the other attendees also employees of the boss?

      1. Admin of Sys*

        yeah, this – if it was a room full of folks that report to the boss and he asked the only woman, I’d be offended. But if he’s your direct manager and all the other folks are people of your level but don’t report to him, I think it might just be that he has authority to ask you to do things. (Though I can see bringing up the fact that the gender bias made it look bad).

    3. Argh!*

      Yes, women are more likely to be asked to handle food and beverage needs.

      If all the other people there were strangers, then I wouldn’t take it personally. If the rest were more-or-less equal in rank, then it might be worth saying something to the boss like, “I didn’t mind getting the sandwich one time, but next time could you ask one of the men? I don’t want people to think it’s one of my job duties.”

    4. Ali G*

      Do you have an Office Manager? My reply would be “I’m sorry I have stuff to do up until the meeting. Why can’t delivery bring the food to the office?/Office manager take care of it/anything else?”

  175. Decima Dewey*

    We had a some drama in my library branch this week. One of our regular patrons, call him Mr. X, is a Black man who’s very conservative. Think Larry Elder in Public Scold mode. Our new branch manager, Mr. Lastname, is Latino. It’s been hot and our AC has not yet been turned on.

    So a patron asks Mr. Lastname to turn on the enormous floor fan. Mr. X then complains that the fan is blowing cold air on him. Mr. Lastname and Mr. X squabble. Mr. X leaves, declaring that Mr. Lastname is a “little b#st#rd” and says he should “go back where he came from.” The next day, Mr. X arrives shortly after we open, clearly spoiling for a fight. Mr. X tells the guard that he should call the police on him (meaning Mr. X). He also says that Mr. Lastname “thinks he’s white.” When the police do arrive, Mr. X is on his best behavior. Mr. Lastname makes a tactical error, telling the police that it’s their job to make Mr. X leave. Mr. Lastname also cites a library policy that doesn’t happen to exist. The police insist on seeing the library policy in writing, which Mr. Lastname cannot produce. They tell Mr. X he’s within his rights to stay as long as he’s not creating a disturbance. Mr. X, of course, doesn’t budge. Eventually, Mr. Lastname goes to lunch and Mr. X decides that he’s won, and departs.

    At yesterday’s cluster meeting, we were all reminded to work to de-escalate situations that crop up, and not call the police unless it’s an actual safety issue or a threat.

    1. Lynne879*

      What did Mr. Lastname say that made him & Mr. X squabble? Mr. X is obviously in the wrong for being a racist jerk, but I’m still curious as to what Mr. Lastname actually said that made Mr. X resort to being a jerk.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Mr. X used strong language, Mr. Lastname took offense, it got worse from there.

    2. Bea*

      I’m confused. Mr X complained the fan was blowing on him. Why is the patron who asked for air more important than Mr X not wanting to be in a wind tunnel?

      Mr X is racist but Mr Lastname is still wrong to squabble with him in the first place. He should be above bickering with a patron.

      “I’m sorry, Mr X. It’s stuffy in here and another patron asked for the fan to be turned on. Can I help you move out of the direct wind?”

      Also ask people if a fan is appreciated. One person requesting it isn’t enough to just force it upon others.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Mr. X’s usual table is right by the fan. There were several unoccupied tables out of the direct path of the fan.

        Yes, Mr. Lastname should have handled it differently. We’re being told, as part of de-escalation, to lower our voices below where we want patrons to be, and to speak slowly and calmly (but not so slowly and calmly as to sound conscending).

        Mr. Lastname is new to managing a branch. I hope he’ll mellow as he gains more experience.

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          The training your library system is giving sounds very good. I just hope, for everyone’s sake, that they turn on the air conditioning. Our library also won’t turn it on before Memorial Day (city ordinance) and it leads to all sorts of problems.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      I love that the resolution to this involved someone just going to lunch, at which point everyone can declare victory and stand down and have jello.

      Of course regular patrons cannot change tables! This not being an option does not surprise me in the least.

      Tactically, Mr X is trouncing Mr Lastname. And, yeah: DE-ESCALATE. Don’t worry about who started it, who’s a jerk, etc–just work to get everyone dialing it back down.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Poor Mr. Lastname needs some deescalation training or guidance; that’s something that’s getting to be necessary for libraries now, really. He definitely didn’t handle that well, but it sounds like he doesn’t have a lot of training on how to handle that sort of situation. I am glad the officers handled it well.

    5. cataloger*

      Unrelated, but I also worry about not having stable temperature in the library; it encourages mold growth in books.

  176. Husband deciding between biotech jobs--startup/stock worth it?*

    Hi all—

    After years of earning his PhD my husband is finally seeing some payoff—three biotech companies are very interested in him. He’s trying to decide between the main two. One offered in the $125-$145k range and 25,000 shares of stock. It’s a well regarded startup with excellent investments and looks solid. Another is more established and likely to make an offer today. The pay is likely to be the same (the startup offered waaaay more than he expected and it seems unlikely anyone will top it) but no stock. However, they’re larger, have a great track record of success, and would support more professional development. People seem to love working there. They of course pooh-poohed the startup a bit.

    My thought is he should go for the startup. The more established company will almost certainly have positions open again if/when he wants to apply one day. But this particular opportunity at the startup won’t come again–other startups might turn up in his future but this is his one opportunity to get in at close to the ground floor at this one. The stock may be worthless, but at this point in our lives (we’re not youngsters and we don’t have much money) the possibility of striking it rich if they go public is extremely tempting. The startup is also a somewhat less onerous commute (both will be megacommutes).

    I’m interested in any advice/experience anyone can throw at us! I know that either way, we’ll be fine. The base pay is absolutely incredible. It will be life-changing for us financially. I feel very, very fortunate that at last our ship seems to have come in.

    1. Temperance*

      What is your career? If you have a reliable career, I would lean towards the established company rather than the startup.

      1. Husband deciding between biotech jobs--startup/stock worth it?*

        Oh that’s interesting. Yes, I have a reliable career in a state job with good benefits, but it pays about 2/3 what he’d be making and there are no chances at bigger money. I also hope to retire in about 15 years (he’s younger) and have very little banked for that due to my previous freelance career.

        So do I understand you that you think if my career is reliable, then he should go with the established company? My immediate thought was that my career is reliable so he can afford to gamble a bit.

    2. Argh!*

      I think the reverse is more likely – if the start-up grows, they’ll have more openings.

      … and if the start-up tanks, their stocks will be worthless.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      Anecdatum: Spouse worked for a startup company, got stock, it never became worth anything. I believe that is a far more common experience, like new restaurants and acting careers. We had a couple of years of financial escapades along the lines of “we have funding for two weeks, and then we’ll see what happens,” layoffs (never hit him), but stressful), temporary pay and hour cut, etc. He is now with someone stable with deeper pockets, and likes it.

      This would come down to your husband’s tolerance for risk, and how much he likes each company. It could pay off–I knew someone for whom it did–but it isn’t the most likely outcome.

      My advice, since you are okay with the riskier option, is to tell him you’d totally be up for the swing for the fences option if he wants that, and then back off and let him decide. (I would go for the established one–but both are their own sort of dice rolls.)

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I would not consider the stock in your calculations at all. It’s like a raffle ticket (unless the company is already planning its IPO). It’s common for startups to fold, be purchased in deals that leave employees out, or just putter along without the explosive growth the founders hoped for.

    4. ArtK*

      I’ve worked for big companies and I’ve worked for startups. I’ve kissed more worthless options good bye than I care to remember. While the rewards of working for a startup can be great, the odds of a big payout are poor. We hear about the massive successes, but the many failures get no press (unless they do a really spectacular tank, usually involving some kind of fraud.)

      Startups demand a lot from you. Small staff and the struggle to earn a profit before the vulture capitalists shut you down can be extremely stressful. I suggest doing some deep investigation into the startup. Talk to people who work there — even more importantly, talk to anyone who has left. What’s the work expectation? 60 hours/week? 80? BTW, if they use the “work hard/play hard” line, run quickly away!

      Find out what condition their financing is. Is it VC, private equity or something else? How many rounds and how well capitalized are they? In other words, where’s that incredible salary coming from? How extravagant are they in their other spending? I’m old enough to remember the dot-com bubble. Companies that could have survived spent far too much on perqs and new buildings. They don’t have to be Scrooge-like misers, but if they are spending too much on non-essentials, that’s a big red flag.

      Sorry, my “what could possibly go wrong” instinct cut in. If you’re not risk-averse, and you can handle it failing, then go for it!

    5. Husband deciding between biotech jobs--startup/stock worth it?*

      Thank you all so much for your really thoughtful replies! Seeing several people cautioning about the likely worthlessness of the stock is very grounding. I’m probably letting that plus the somewhat shorter commute sway me too much. This is such helpful advice for us to consider this weekend.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Since you will both be working, please start putting money in retirement accounts. As much as possible.

    6. CAA*

      In addition to what everyone else said about stock options (and I’ve also had good ones, mediocre ones, and underwater ones), find out what stock benefits the established company does have. If they’re publicly traded, then they may grant RSUs during employee reviews and they could also have an ESOP or ESPP program. These types of programs will provide value more quickly than waiting for an IPO and then sitting through the six month lockup period before you can exercise your options.

    7. SpaceNovice*

      Established company. You should really only risk start-ups after you have enough experience that you can just bounce quickly to another job if it fails. Professional Development is literally his #1 priority now that he’s out of school, and you have no idea how hard that it is to find. Places don’t emphasize it enough. They have a great track record of success because of good management policies, and he’ll get a lot of best practices experience, I bet.

    8. Jerry Vandesic*

      25K shares: the number is irrelevant. What matters is the percentage of the company. Without that you cannot put any sort of value on the shares (probably options as opposed to shares). Ask the startup about its capitalization, how many shares are outstanding, what the strike price is for the options, and what the last round of funding valued the company. As others say, the stock will likely be worthless, but without this sort of info there is no way to put a value on the stock other than zero.

  177. DataChick*

    My job just started doing this thing called “press releases” for our department. When we want to describe our initiative, we need to think about it in its “future state” (i.e. – if teapot redevelopment initiative is to launch in 2019, we have to write as if it was 2019 and how awesome it was for the org), complete with a fake future quote from an actual employee.

    Is this weird to anyone else? I found it really odd to do.. and although it makes you think about an ideal state of your project post launch, it seems to really discourage any potential “fail fast and learn” mentality. But maybe I’m reading too much into it?

    Also, I would feel really uncomfortable being quoted without my knowledge or permission (which happened to a colleague of mine!). Am I being too sensitive about it?

    2. SpaceNovice*

      That is literally the oddest thing I’ve read in a while. That’s so weird. No, you’re not reading too much into it. It’s not normal nor good.

  178. Anon A Nonny Day*

    I was terminated from my job today, for cause, and I will be emailing with the HR person soon. What questions should I ask?

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      See if they will agree to verifying your dates of employment instead of giving a reference if they are contacted during your job search.
      I’m sorry. :(

    3. CAA*

      Sorry to hear this. Ask if they will contest your unemployment claim. (Even if they say they will contest it, you should still apply.)

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Make sure to get COBRA paperwork if you’re in the US. Also: I’m sorry. That sucks!

    5. ..Kat..*

      Will they allow you to file for unemployment? How they word your termination will affect this.

      What kind of reference will you get? Just confirmation of employment, or all the details?

      How long are your benefits good for? I.e., dental insurance, health insurance, etc.

  179. Jemima Bond*

    How do I deal with my line manager who seems to be a bit….stupid?
    I think I need to upward manage him or something. I certainly seem to spend a significant amount of time having to explain him how things should be done rather than vice versa – not because I’m bossy; because he doesn’t know!
    Examples: He doesn’t seem to understand the legislation that specifically governs some things we do and is a sort of guiding principle for everything we do. Often resulting in “Can we get this?” “Not really because the law blah blah” “oh well I think we should get it so ask anyway” “I asked for that thing and they said no because [reasons I gave earlier]”. Being able to imply “I told you so” does not compensate for him wasting my time and being wrong!
    He made a minor breach of similar legislation – in his defence I believe it was an honest mistake, and it was dealt with accordingly, paperwork completed etc., but what worried me was that he didn’t understand why it was a problem; I heard him say to our grand boss, “I don’t see what the big deal is”!
    He asked a peer of mine to put something on a form that definitely should not go there because security. Peer pushes back, manager insists, peer has to consult team who vet these forms, who are horrified that manager would advise this and confirm no don’t put that on the form.
    Re all the above rules and regs he has had thorough and recent training just as the rest of us.
    If I ask him for guidance, as my line manager, he mostly says “I have no idea”. No effort to point me where to find out, offer to look into it, say he’ll raise the issue up the management chain, or help in any way. He might as well not be there.
    Does not remember most basic searches and techniques on a database we use all the time that is very simple.
    Runs search on database demonstrating not only lack of understanding of said database but of basic logic (no use searching for all brown or white llamas and saying yay there are sixty hits on the system, if you are looking for a brown llama named Jose and a white llama named Pepita. Giving me a list of all sixty achieves nothing!)
    Asking at a presentation about llama grooming techniques, given by a visiting expert, what direction llama fur grows in, making us all look stupid and causing several sets of eyes to roll nearly clean out of heads and frantic whispering of “how does he not know that?!”
    Not noticing that there are not one but three fridges in the work kitchen that he enters every day; all of which are free-standing and not built into cabinets, about five foot tall and right next to each other. Ok that one was quite funny.
    I’m embarrassed by him in front of other people, my time (and that of peers he also manages) is wasted on his silly ideas (I have a good few years more experience) and all in all it’s so frustrating! Every few days he has me either wanting to say, “what is the POINT of you?” or wondering if there is actually something wrong with him. I’m face palming clean through to the back of my skull.

    This is imho the danger of the competency-based internal application/promotion process…

    As he’s senior to me I’m not sure there’s anything I can do other than grin and bear it. If it were the other way round I could address performance issues but it’s not.

    1. Competent Commenter*

      This reminds me a bit of my current supervisor. I work in an subject area she’s not very familiar with and also exude a don’t mess with me vibe, so she leaves me alone, but my two coworkers who do the same work as her get this kind of thing constantly. And yet, other teams have rolled their eyes. She also holds back my coworkers from success sometimes. It’s extremely frustrating.

      I would approach it from a cover yourself perspective first off. Make sure that there’s no way his mistakes can come back to bite you by documenting via email as much as possible. Then do your best to disengage emotionally. His behavior reflects more on him than you, even though it’s embarrassing being associated with it. There will be times when his lack of understanding makes your job harder and that’s going to stink.

      Lastly I’d consider documenting in a private list that you keep at home/somewhere safe each one of the serious infractions that involve security or regulations. If someone higher up approaches you, consider sharing it. You have to do this carefully but I often wish people would take those opportunities more. I personally have proactively approached superiors about problems with my supervisor, but that’s a bit much for some people. However, at least be ready to provide solid info if asked for it. Your bosses’ bosses deserve to know so they can make good decisions for you all.

  180. KayEss*

    I have an interview next week with a place I really don’t want to work, but I’m also getting close to running out of UI, so! Weird flags so far:

    – Uses a non-standard job title for the role. I’d be doing the same work, but have a lesser job title.
    – Incredibly vague about the job itself–I had to ask for details. The listing was two sentences on the job duties, one of which was “expect other duties as assigned.”
    – Turns out, the way the job is set up is also incredibly non-standard. Instead of working on projects in a collaborative team, everyone basically acts as an internal freelancer–once sales gets a client, you get assigned and work on the project solo from start to finish. My immediate thought: “So you’re asking me to take on all the annoying client interaction parts of being a freelancer, but without being able to fire problem clients? Hm.”
    – Their HQ is in another state, and it turns out I’d be the only person in this role at the local office. Both this and the previous point suggest the role would definitely not benefit my future career–for most of the jobs at good places I’ve been rejected from, it’s been clearly due at least in part to a lack of industry-standard team and process experience.
    – After I agreed to the follow-up interview (because what the hell), I was told I had to take what turned out to be a personality test and, I swear, an honest-to-god INTELLIGENCE TEST. It was couched as a “learning assessment” but it was literally a timed test with questions on logic, spatial reasoning, and straight-up math and vocabulary.

    I’m like 50-50 on this place secretly being a cult. If I’m not back next Friday, you know what happened.

  181. VictoriaQ*

    I have a question about applying to jobs. So, I’m graduating in about 3 weeks (yay), and 10 days after that I’m going on a three-week out-of-the-country trip. The city I’m looking to move to/get a job in is currently 5 hours away from me, and will be about 2 hours away from me once I’m home. That said, should I apply for jobs even knowing I won’t really be available for six weeks and just mention it in my cover letter? Or should I wait to apply for jobs after I’m back from my trip? While living at home, my mom has assured me she won’t push me to be job hunting until August, and knowing that I’m job hunting, she’ll largely stay off my back, so I’m not worried about parental pressure to get a job.

    1. Ali G*

      Apply and when they contact you for an interview let them know your availability. They may not be able to wait, but they might! Don’t put it in your cover letter.

  182. Melimania*

    Question for people in long term unmarried relationships: how do you refer to your significant other in the work world? Especially if it comes up in interview discussions? Obviously, I’m not telling interviewers I need to run their offer by him, but more along the lines of when it comes up in small talk or major life decisions. For example, we made a cross country move so partner could be in specialized industry. When answering interviewers why here, I usually mentioned partner’s desire for industry plus my family and roots in the area. Not mentioning partner felt disingenuous because I wouldn’t have moved here without partner’s interest but at the same time maybe I should be steering away from discussing partner as reason for anything work related in general (especially as a woman). I don’t mind so much using boyfriend when making small talk with interviewers about what we did this weekend but it feels to paltry of a term when talking about major life decisions made together. Partner feels like dated terminology to me but it seems to be the most accurate.

    So really two questions: 1) Do/should people steer clear of mentioning partners at all during interviews? 2) What term(s) do unmarried long term people like?

    1. MuseumChick*

      It’s a little clunky, but could you say “my long-term partner” or “my long-term boyfriend”. Our language just don’t have a good word/phrase for long-term unmarried couples.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      My great-aunt used “companion” which I thought was great, and avoided the confusion with business partner. (A timid relative who carries your knitting no longer being a thing.) But alas, it didn’t catch on.

      Just use partner, assuming the context makes clear this is a romantic partner akin to a spouse for planning purposes, and not your business partner. In this particular situation, it is a plus–you have things keeping you in this geographic area, one of which is your partner’s job, another of which is your family, a third of which is that you like the weather and culture.

      (I also think you needn’t avoid “I’ll run this by my spouse/family/partner” when considering a job offer–presumably he didn’t tell you “Hey, I’m taking a new job in Austin–come with, stay, whatevs.” It’s a normal thing to discuss your possible future geographic location with any adults who share your home in a family sense, rather than a passing roommate sense.)

      2. Jennifer Thneed*

        Companion more than caught on — it was an understood term, to the point that there used to be such a thing as a “paid companion”. (This might be a more British than US thing.)

        (When I was about 7, back in the late 1960’s, and at a big family party, my great-aunt Marie came another woman. I asked my mom who that other woman was, and she said “That’s Aunt Marie’s companion”. Which was to say: her life partner, and they really had really spent their lives together. I don’t know how many family members “got it” that they were a couple, but I surely did once I was old enough to look back with adult eyes.)

        In Britain, people use “partner” all the time. In the US it used to exclusively mean “same sex partner” but that is no longer true, now that we same-sexers can get legally married.

        1. Quinoa*

          Actually, I refer to my opposite sex partner as my partner all the time, and I live in the US. We’re both grownups and calling him my boyfriend feels juvenile. I’ve heard many unmarried but partnered adults of a variety of orientations use the term.

    3. Thlayli*

      I used to say boyfriend until we had kids then partner seemed more appropriate. Now I say husband :)

    4. C*

      I don’t have an answer for #1.
      To #2, I once had a boss who referred to their very long-time partner as “my other half.” I know some people don’t like the connotation, but I like that it suggests the same long-term commitment, just without the piece of paper that lets you call him “husband.” I probably would default to “partner” in those situations, even though I don’t like it. Boyfriend works too, but it always makes me feel like a 16 year-old when I say it.
      What about “my common law husband”? (wink) Kidding. I know that’s not a thing in most states anymore, but it might be the most accurate.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      Back in the day, (happily single now), I used partner. But then, I like normalizing the gender-neutral term.

      1. Reba*

        Yep, for similar reasons I used “partner” and now, “spouse.”

        But in answer to the actual question, I don’t think it’s out of line to mention SO’s in interviews but I’d only let it be that, a mention in the vaguest way — I think what you said was fine but in your example I don’t think it was strictly necessary to mention the partner as such, nor is it disingenuous to omit them.

    6. Snazzy Hat*

      My s.o. & I have been together almost seven years. Since “ess oh” sounds weird and “significant other” has too many syllables for felicitous conversation, I refer to him as my partner. None of my coworkers have asked why I use that term, although I’ve had to tell other people it’s because we have serious plans on getting married some day but since we don’t have a specific date I don’t feel comfortable saying he’s my fiancé. There is a 100% chance that term will elicit a response of “oh, when’s the big day?!” and I really don’t want to say, “um… we don’t have a date set yet…”

    7. Courageous cat*

      I like to say partner but it also gives me pause in certain situations where I don’t know the other person well, because (as a bisexual person) I am well aware that some people may automatically think I mean same-sex partner. Which is all well and good, but there are some people in the business world that I don’t trust to not be an asshole about it.

    8. Bea*

      I moved for my boyfriend. And when interviewing to move to the area, I always just said partner or boyfriend, whichever came out. Nobody was seemingly put off by it, everyone responded in the same way I would expect if I had used husband.

    9. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Almost 14 years together and this has come up a lot – usually I adjust depending on the situation:

      a) People I dont know/more formal – partner
      b) People I interact with regularly/work colleagues – significant other / other half
      c) Friends: The Boy (or his name :P)
      d) Random people where it would take too much to explain for the situation or they dont need to know: husband
      e) in Scandinavian countries/dealing with Scandinavians: sambo (thank GOD there is a word in Swedish for this!)

      Boyfriend sounds too “recent” to me too, but spouse isn’t technically correct and since I don’t wear any ring on the left hand, probably confusing (although it isn’t as though it matters). I think Partner has become pretty standard these days, however.

  183. Snazzy Hat*

    A few days ago here on AAM, it was declared that you can’t re-submit your resume when you’re in the interview stage. What if you’re not yet interviewing, and you now have relevant experience that you didn’t have when you applied a few months ago?

    A friend of mine has her pharmacy degree and wants to work at Nearby Hospital as a pharmacist. She just started working as a temp pharmacist (I’m surprised that’s a thing, too) at Different Hospital. What’s the best way — if there is a way — to let Nearby Hospital know that she has hospital experience now? Is it as simple as “Since I’ve recently started temping at ____, I’d like to send you my updated resume”?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I would hesitate to add it so soon–at this point the job has been so short she’s likely still training, and it’s the sort of very brief stay that would normally not go on a resume if she quit tomorrow because Nearby Hospital gave her a job offer. There’s no doubt an optimal time where you can submit a new cover letter mentioning how much you’ve learned as a substitute (insert job) in the past months, but the guess of someone in the local (insert job) industry is going to be more accurate than mine. (That is, it’ll be both profession and region specific.)

      I’m pretty sure it should be “months” and not “weeks” though.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        She’s been in other pharmacist roles (retail, infusion lab); this is just her first time working in a hospital as a pharmacist. Hell, she did some pharmacy technician work at a hospital before grad school, but that was maybe ten years ago.

        My guess was to only bring it up if she gets an interview. You make a great point with the “brief stay that would normally not go on a resume” bit. I think I’m still on the heels of my partner’s recent interviews where his school handed out really crummy versions of his resume to companies. It was so bad, I encouraged him to hand interviewers “a more accurate version” of his resume: one that doesn’t list his high school (with graduation year!) or an incorrect place of former employment (I know the city shouldn’t be on there in the first place, but the WRONG city and state?!).

        I appreciate the idea of putting that in a cover letter.

  184. wolfzahn*

    Very odd thing happened today. An I.T. person came to my office and said he needed to change a setting in my Outlook. I said OK, and asked him what kind of setting it was (assuming it was a technical thing or something to do with allowable attachment size perhaps) and he says he needs to change the view, as per manager’s orders. I was a bit surprised and let him change the view. He changed it from ‘reading pane on right’ (which i HIGHLY prefer) to ‘reading pane on bottom’ (which I HATE). The I.T. guy said it would be better for seeing and sorting e-mails, which I doubt he believed. After he left, my co-worker and I were just…so confused. We did not know why the manager would think changing the view would help us in any way (it wouldn’t). We both ended up changing back to the views we preferred. Because changing it will NOT help with efficiency in the slightest, as they seem to believe. Not sure what the higher ups were thinking…

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Did the caps-lock-disabling intern move into management and gain control of an IT department?

    2. Argh!*

      They’re thinking they know what’s best for you in all things. We have some like that. Patronizing SOB’s is what I call them!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That manager needs to be fired… or disciplined at least. Not only does that not make sense (everyone must have this exact same setting which I prefer, whether they prefer it or not), but it isn’t even enforced (you and your co-worker were able to just change the setting back). What a waste of time and energy.

      1. wolfzahn*

        Oh, if only he could be fired. He’s the head honcho. (Though I don’t know if this order in fact came from him, but he’s definitely the one who can get an I.T. guy to do something so ridiculous). My husband said the exact same thing – such a waste of time.

      2. Argh!*

        Sometimes you just have to remind yourself that at least your paycheck doesn’t bounce when it seems there are no redeeming features to the position!

    4. Admin of Sys*

      …did he do anything else? And did you recognize him? I swear, that sounds like such a fake thing to do that I’d be afraid they were installing malware or spyware or something.

      1. wolfzahn*

        He literally only changed the view. I know he’s one of our I.T. guys, so no issue there. But it doesn’t surprise me that the big boss, or maybe the big big boss, would think this is the way to go about things. :/

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      And he changed a setting that you have the rights to change back? That is weird.

    6. LCL*

      Is he a normally a micromanager, or is this a case of the holiday weekend brain death? Myself, I rarely use reading pane, but would make more use of it if I had the option to put it on the left.

      1. wolfzahn*

        He is a micromanager unfortunaetely, so I can see this order coming from him (or maybe even the grand-boss).

    7. nep*

      Makes zero sense whatsoever. Pretty stupid, actually. Everyone’s different when it comes to that.
      I prefer my paper calendar/agenda to show the entire month; I’m oriented that way and it’s how I work best when it comes to seeing and planning my schedule. For someone else, showing the week might work best. If someone were to impose a view that does not work for me, for example, that would be just nuts.

    8. SpaceNovice*

      That’s. Literally the absolute oddest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life. I’ve never heard of anything so dumb! I literally don’t even know why anyone would care. That’s practically a sign of a coming apocalypse for your company because literally no one in their right mind would even care. Ever.

  185. De Minimis*

    Had an interview today with another non-profit [though a larger one] that works in a similar sector as my current employer. I thought it went well, the job would be a good step for me into working for a larger, more complex organization.

    Took vacation leave, felt much better about that instead of taking sick leave. I’m hoping something works out soon, I already learned I didn’t get two of the positions for which I’ve interviewed—-for one of them the posting has been cancelled [after doing a panel interview, which makes me wonder if they just didn’t like anyone] and for the other one where I had a second interview they went with another candidate. I was okay with that, the job actually involved way more management than the job title/description first indicated–I probably would not have applied to the job if they’d had a more accurate description of it. Just wish I hadn’t wasted my time in applying and interviewing for it in the first place. But it was good practice for the interview today, I guess.

    Have real anxiety about interviewing, though…I don’t really sleep well in the days leading up to an interview, and can’t turn my brain off to stop thinking and planning about what I’m going to say. I will be glad when I find a new position so I can stop worry about it.

    I found out my current job is going to extend me for another couple of months past my original layoff date [early next year] but my salary is still going to be reduced to an unsustainable level later this summer so I don’t really care if they extend it.

  186. MechanicalPencil*

    I’m a bit at Hulk SMASH stage with work. Rant, ahoy!

    They’re implementing a new workflow style. But they didn’t work out the kinks before they got started, so it’s a bit of “ok, so we’re going to do it this way. Wait, nope. JK. Do it this other way. HAHA, I dunno what I was thinking, now we’re all going this way.” Make a decision then tell us!

    Another project has ground to a halt, so I’m slowly running out of things to work on because there’s only so much of a teapot I can redesign until that project kicks back into gear again. A project I was Super Proud Of got its knees chopped off, then got like hari kiri’d on top of it, and now they want me to approve the work. And! They’re forgetting some of the parameters they gave me, and the person questioning them is the one who told me NOT to do it! After I provided some feedback, he sent it to my boss for approval. Uh. Take me at my word? You’re the one who reached out to me for feedback to begin with!

    Thank all things holy it’s Friday. I need an adult beverage.

    1. Pet sitter*

      *hands you a beer*

      They’re implementing a new workflow style. But they didn’t work out the kinks before they got started

      Good times. This happened where I used to work (not pet sitting, ofc) and WHY???

    2. esra*

      Oh god, this is us every time the CEO reads about a new shiny thing he likes. We need a new wiki! We need a new website! We need a new workflow! Shiny ball!

    3. SpaceNovice*

      They’re implementing a new workflow style. But they didn’t work out the kinks before they got started was when I got up from my chair and got a beer out of the fridge. I’ve been there, friend. I have so been there. My first job was basically fixing the chaos that resulted. It took over three years.

      Oh man, the poor project. RIP Project. I hope it comes back as a zombie.

  187. ThursdaysGeek*

    I was bitten by a dog yesterday, while on a walk during a break from work. We’re supposed to report work injuries, but it was on my break, and away from the company property. Plus, although the teeth broke the skin, I wasn’t even aware of that until we finished our walk, so it was a really minor bite. Is my thinking correct that it was ok to not report it?

    1. nep*

      I would still report it; it was during work hours, even if a break. Just so it’s on the record.

    2. Argh!*

      You should report it because you were being paid at the time.

      You should also report it to Animal Control.

  188. writelhd*

    I have a colleague who is a grouch to everyone and has cultivated this into a sort of legend about his persona, but he also has a specific problem with the fact that my job exists. He doesn’t think it should–others have told me that when it was created he argued hard against it–he thinks the specific thing my predecessor and then I was hired to do was taking the company in the wrong direction and has/will cost us. I don’t agree and neither do the other directors, and he knows that his opinion is not the popular one, so he resigns himself to grumbling when I come to ask for his input when my job requires it and occasionally even sniping at what I do. He does it to my face, and I’m fairly certain that he does it behind my back even worse. It’s about my role and is not particularly personal–in fact when our interactions are not work-related he’s cordial and I never get the sense he has anything bad to say about me as a person–but it does still get old. I usually just try to smile it off, insist on what I want, be friendly and cordial but firm. I have always felt that was the high ground, and that I earn some points with him for taking the high ground in the face of his grouch-jerkiness, like, at least I can prove to him that I’m a damn *professional.* But I am so tempted to snipe back, something along the lines of “actually I’m here trying to help us make money, can you please explain to me what’s wrong with that?” I feel like if I do that, I’l lose somehow, and it might be unprofessional. But…how unprofessional would that really be?

    1. Torrance*

      Well, there is something to be said for that ol’ quote Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience but, if you feel like something must be said, I’d encourage you to think a few steps ahead. If you ask him that question, what if he has an answer? He may be prepared & more than willing to rehash all of his previous arguments regarding your position. I’d go into that conversation prepared to counter any and all of his points, otherwise it might not be worth the risk of sinking to his level.

    2. Reba*

      This guy sucks and you have nothing to prove to him.

      I don’t think the sniping you’re daydreaming about would be out of line, but I also don’t think it’s likely to do anything.

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      > grumbling when I come to ask for his input when my job requires it and occasionally even sniping at what I do

      “When I come to you with a question it’s because you’re the best person to answer it, and when you grumble before even answering it, it slows us both down for no good reason. I really need you to keep that grumble to yourself. Do you think you can do that?” And yes, you can do this as a peer. You’ll probably be sick to your stomach while doing it, but you can do it. You’re making a simple statement of fact.

      Then he says yes or no. If he says yes, and sticks to it, great. If he says no, at least it’s out in the open, and you can take it to you boss to ask if someone else can be your subject-matter expert. Just because he likes to think of himself as a curmudgeon doesn’t mean he needs to be grouchy ALL the time.

  189. Lindsay J*

    Does anyone have a bag they use as their personal item for travel, and also to bring back and forth to work every day?

    I’m thinking backpack or messenger style, but am open to other options.

    It would hold my laptop (and cord), Kindle Fire, bag of medicines, makeup bag, brush bag, bag of phone charging cords and ends, a portable charger, my bullet journal book, and my wireless headphones. And have a space for me to shove my wallet and ID into. Space to carry a water bottle would be a plus.

    Right now I’m using a Solo brand messenger bag, and while theoretically it should fit my requirements, I don’t love it.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Osprey bags. I have a small one I use when traveling (it can hold my purse, along with the laptop and some other stuff) that also zips onto my Osprey carry on rolling bag, and my husband a larger one he uses for both regular work commute and travel. Sturdy, well-designed, and they have the right number of pockets. (That is, plenty, and of different sizes, but not so many you lose track of which clever spot you put the advil in.)

    2. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I’m not a basketball fan but I just got the Under Armour SC 30 backpack. The top pocket has a padded sleeve for laptops and tablets. The second pocket has a good water resistant seal and will hold a basketball if you needed to! It has a lined exterior pouch for a cold drink, and has plenty of space and other cool exterior pockets to hold stuff. There is also a tiny pocket near the top that will hold keys and a wallet. It will definitely hold everything you mentioned. I use it for travel and to take things to work from time to time. I absolutely love it.

      The only downside is that it comes in one color, what they’ve labeled stealth grey. There are some older models of the backpack that come in a striking blue and gold, but people are charging more for those.

    3. JDY*

      I like my osprey backpack, but next time around I might try the backpack by tom bihn. They are built with a lot of consideration, I have a suitcase made by them I love.

    4. CAA*

      Have you looked at Baggallini totes? They’re lightweight and professional looking.

    5. JessicaTate*

      I invested in a Dagne Dover bag about a year ago for that dual purpose. It had the compartments I wanted/needed and was big, but sill able to be crammed under the seat in front of me (an essential). It’s more nice, professional lady-work-bag than a backpack or messenger bag though. It does come with a neoprene sleeve attachment inside for a water bottle (good if you don’t have an insulated bottle). It’s not perfect (I’m really picky about bags), but it meets the need, looks very professional, and has been very durable.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Do you happen to remember which model you ended up choosing? I was looking through their website and while I really liked their bags, I have no idea where to start…

        1. JessicaTate*

          I got the Legend model. I was going for max size that still can be jammed under that seat in front of me. (It’s a little tight, but doable.) The Classic is basically the same, but a little scaled down in all dimensions. I would also say that the laptop compartment is meant for a slim model. Mine is fairly slim, but not an airbook, and it’s a bit of a push to get it in there.

    6. periwinkle*

      We have horrible clunky old laptops, although I might be allowed to trade up soon for something manufactured this decade. The company-issued computer backpacks are huge and heavy. So, I bought a smaller, lighter, but high-quality backpack from Timbuk2 which fits the work laptop plus daily accoutrements including wallet, cable lock, headset, power adapter, and insulated lunch bag.

      I frequently use this same backpack for travel, both work and personal; it fits perfectly under an airline seat and my “ugh, 5 hours on a plane” coping equipment fits in there as well (lightweight pashima/blanket scarf, USB cables, Kindle, protein bars).

      I prefer a backpack to a messenger bag because it leaves both hands free while not leaving one shoulder in pain from the heft of the bag contents. The one I bought has been discontinued but Timbuk2’s VIP backpack is very similar.

    7. Snazzy Hat*

      I got my JanSport messenger bag about fifteen years ago. It’s sturdy and has pockets within pockets, a padded laptop compartment (which was the perfect size for my HP Mini when I carted that around, as the hook&loop closure could actually close), a well-padded shoulder strap, a bottle carrier, and a key clip. You could definitely put all your stuff and a full lunch bag into this. The model name is “Elefunk”; Amazon doesn’t show off the insides, but it is roomy.

    8. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I’ve got a Knomo Rejkyavik – backpack with the carrying handles on top – for commuting and it looks stylish and professional while still easy to carry. LOTS of pockets for organization, which is great since we are 100% hot desking. I keep wallet and keys in one section, USB cords and phone/headphones in another, inside I keep eating utensils and hand lotion in one pocket, and my calculator and pens in another while my work issued laptop slides into its own compartment, and papers go in another. Footie socks and protein bars go in an outer section along my back. Still tons of space then in the main carry bit for something like a sweater or shoes.

      Its also waterproof on the outside, which helps!

      I also bought this specifically because I could either easily slide it under the seat in front of me on a plane OR stand it upright in the overhead, not to mention the outer pockets are so easily accessible for things like passports.

  190. Salary relativity*

    What are your thoughts on salary relativity? I am a generalist manager of an IT manager, and I learned that he earns $20,000 more than I do. Should you always earn more than your direct reports, or does field of specialty come into it?

    For context, a few years ago in a different job, my boss gave me a substantial pay rise. The most senior manager in the org unit (to whom I didn’t report) argued successfully for a comparable increase in the grounds of maintaining salary relativity.

    Have any of you encountered this kind of thing before? Should I ask for a pay rise on the basis of relativity?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I know Alison has specifically cited IT as an example where your reports might make more than you, because they have a harder-to-fill role with a more unique skill set. Sort of like a consultant or similar specialist contractor might have a higher yearly salary than the people who hire her–it’s the cost of retaining someone in a hard-to-fit niche. A surgeon might earn more than a hospital administrator, even though they don’t have any management duties and the latter has tons.

      I guess I don’t blame your past senior manager for coming up with a pretense about why he was owed more money and trying to convince someone else of that–hey, it worked. Maybe it would work for you, if your senior management agrees. (I can see why senior management would see benefits to such a policy…) But I don’t think you should frame it in your head as the way the world invariably works.

    2. CAA*

      This definitely happens in tech, and it is nothing new. Way back at my first job in 1985, at a gigantic tech company whose name you know, we had a session on career paths and advancement during orientation. As part of that, we were shown sample salary ladders and it was explained that senior individual contributors made more than the first 3 or 4 rungs of management. Only when you got up into executive levels would your value to the company be greater than that of a person who invents and delivers products.

      Whether it’s relevant in your particular position is another question though. If your company has a history of always paying managers more than their reports, or if other managers at your level and with similar skills are paid more than you, then it’s worth asking for a raise.

    3. periwinkle*

      At my company, first-level manager salaries are comparable to senior individual contributor salaries. My boss is a senior manager but I’m pretty sure the two very senior technical people on our team both earn more than our manager. In my opinion, managers come and go but true superstar contributors are much more difficult to replace.

    4. Gotham Bus Company*

      This sort of thing is why I am considering requesting a voluntary demotion. Lower-level titles have received annual raises over the past few years while managers’ salaries are frozen, so their salaries have caught up to my own. Add in paid overtime and subtract stress, and it becomes a no-brainer.

  191. Pet sitter*

    I would like to vent: I stepped in poop four (4) times in one week.

    If you think pet sitting or working in a doggy daycare is cute and fun, it IS cute and fun, but boy, there sure is a lot of poop.

  192. ItsRainingJobsHallelujah*

    Ethical question. I work in an organization that is facing major budget cuts. As such a much hoped for promotion was shot down by my boss’s bosses in March. I accepted my fate and quietly began to job search. Well, I am preceding to the final round of a job that would be a 30% raise, and I would be more aligned to on mission.

    However, it ends up that I did get the promotion. Now I feel terrible that my boss went out on a limb for me, and I might leave them.

    Any suggestions about reframing it in my head ? Also, am I under any obligations to tell my current organization that I am going through this process ?

    1. CAA*

      I think the answer I gave to Serious Pillowfight up above applies here too. You do not have an obligation to stay at an org that is financially unstable, even if your manager went out on a limb to get you a promotion. You do not have an obligation to tell your current org that you are interviewing for another job. The obligation that you do have is to do your current job to the best of your ability for as long as you hold it, and when you leave it, to go out in a professional and ethical way.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      This just gives your boss more ammo regarding being shot down by his superiors (AKA, this situation is THEIR fault, not yours). If you do get the job, make sure to thank him for doing what he did. The timing isn’t ideal, but a 30% raise is huge. I get where you’re coming from, though. He’ll understand, too.

    3. Gotham Bus Company*

      With major budget cuts, your newly promoted position might not last long. If you’re offered the other job, take it.

  193. Anon-eroo career-switch-eroo*

    I’m going to be graduating with a Master’s in engineering (non-software) fairly soon; however, I’ve gotten a nagging feeling that maybe software engineering (not my current academic focus) would be a better fit for me. I transferred to my program from a less-immediately-practical STEM field, and did not realize how much hardware and I do not mix, and how much I liked working on code applications for research labs in my earlier degree.

    My problem is that, while I know I need to study to pass whiteboard interview questions, and have bought a couple of reputable guides to doing just that… and read about which skills and languages are ideal… I just can’t.

    Between school-related exhaustion, some living situation anxiety that popped up during my program, and really nasty depression that crippled me for anything outside coursework… I have personal programming projects I want to do, and stuff I want to read, but I haven’t had the energy to do anything outside of just stare at a wall when all my school stuff is done.

    My energy and enthusiasm is coming back, but I’m also paralyzed with anxiety that I’ve missed the boat. I’m turning 28 in a month, and feel like I’m turning into a bad cliché about young adult unemployment.

    Hell, I don’t even know what I want to *do* in software.

    Can someone out there please tell me I’m not screwed?

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      You’re not screwed. It sounds like you need a real rest first, then you can figure out where to go from there. Try and figure out how you can take a rest.

    2. LQ*

      You don’t have to decide the rest of your life today! Or even in the next 10 years. You can have many successful careers in many areas. You won’t find the perfect job or the perfect field or the perfect career. But you can totally find one that works well for you, lets you learn, grow, try things out, fail, try again, try something else.

      There is no boat. You can’t miss it, because it’s not leaving. I mean, it left on you being a child prodigy violinist, but there are a LOT of jobs that don’t require child prodigy violin skills. Statistically all of them.

      You are NOT screwed. You have so many options. And whichever you pick will work, until you pick something else. And that’s ok. You’re going to have more than one career. And chances are good at least 2 of those careers don’t really exist today. So, try something. If you don’t like it, try something else. And I know this is all easier said than done. I know. I remember the paralyzing anxiety and exhaustion of sitting and feeling like all the ships were leaving without me. But I’m on my second career (maybe 3rd, depending on how you call them) and I would have never imagined, and it’s kind of the job that younger me thought I could never do because I hadn’t started learning all the stuff I wanted to before, but I can learn it now still. I throw myself into the new problems one after another and very frequently fall down, but you can break down a lot of doors by throwing yourself at them hard enough. Way, way more than you will by sitting and staring.

      (I also just read a book that I would recommend that I wish 18 or 28 year old me had read, Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, it was far from perfect but had some good things to think about and might help.)

    3. SpaceNovice*

      I went into programming with an aerospace degree at 28. Not even a Master’s! It’s totally doable. Those with jobs that say “CS degree or equivalent” generally consider a STEM degree with a hard curriculum good enough if you’ve got some proof you can code. (My brother also did this with a Biology degree and some PhD work.)

      There’s some good Udemy courses online. Figure out where you want to live, see what programming languages are popular in the area, learn those. Even better, see if there’s stuff used that combines your STEM degree with programming. Then when you find out what languages are popular (or what languages cool companies near you use), you take some stuff to learn one and then get some legit certifications to prove you know it. You’ll also need to know about object oriented design, design patterns, and unit testing, but that’s more stuff as you get going with the career. You can also look into MATLAB and Simulink. It’ll probably be something like Python. Java and C++ are also popular, C++ especially for things like embedded code. You can just go into google and search “software jobs” and you’ll get stuff returned that’s near you. Also look for Programmer, Software Developer, Software Engineer. You’ll be targeting Junior, Associate, or Software Developer/Engineer I positions.

      If you really like it, you will get there. You’re not just wanting to code for the money but because you enjoy it. That’s the biggest thing, because only people who are passionate will become good at i

      But first: take it easy and rest up like the others said! And double-check with going to the doctors to make sure the exhaustion isn’t anything else. (You’re probably right about the sources, but you could have low Vitamin D, hypothyroidism, or something else.).

      1. Anon-eroo career-switch-eroo*

        Thank you! And congratulations on making that transition!

        If you don’t mind my asking, what were the technical questions like for your first few programming positions, in addition to what you’ve listed above re: topics? I’ve heard some pretty harrowing stuff about whiteboard interviews being unforgiving.

        1. SpaceNovice*

          Thank you! And you’re welcome.

          They actually didn’t, surprisingly–they didn’t do the traditional interview. I expect future positions to ask, though. Make sure you know about Object-Oriented programming concepts at the very least, and also there might be algorithms. You can find a lot online for what questions might be asked and practice examples! Good employers won’t have you do more than a short code test and questions that aren’t tricks. (Unless you’re in Silicon Valley, where everyone has gone insane.) Whiteboard test I’ve so much avoided, although people really seem to like it if you can diagram at least one thing.

          What I would suggest is learning the basics of web development using a Java backend. Definitely see what areas you want to live in offer in terms of jobs and of companies that get in the local papers, because what people want might be different. C and C++ are good if there are a lot of aerospace/engineering companies that make controllers that use embedded software. Python for web development is also popular, but that depends on the area.

      2. Anon-eroo career-switch-eroo*

        And also, thanks re: asking about other potential causes for the exhaustion.

        I’ve had my thyroid checked, and there weren’t any signs of dysfunction. But I do know that if I don’t get enough protein in my diet, that my mood really goes down the toilet, and maybe I haven’t been paying enough attention to this as I should have been lately.

        1. SpaceNovice*

          Oh, yeah! Lack of protein can definitely make for mood crashes and could make underlying depression worse and be a cause for exhaustion. Also, somehow I feel more tired if I don’t move around enough. I’m really glad it isn’t your thyroid! Good luck–I’ll be around in other Friday open threads if you have other questions.

  194. JDY*

    Another Question:

    If I go for an in-person interview in another city (travel arrangements paid for by company) in which long distance family also resides, is it cool to ask recruiter to extend return flight a day or two to fit in a visit? Obviously I would cover my expenses outside of interview.

    1. CAA*

      Yes, it’s fine to ask, but you should also offer to cover any additional flight costs that arise due to returning on a different day. I.e. if they expected to fly you home on Thursday night and instead you ask for Sunday afternoon, that flight might cost a couple hundred dollars more. I can’t imagine they would make you pay the difference, but I think you should offer to do so.

      1. Aly_b*

        I agree with this. I have done this successfully in the past and it was absolutely no big deal for the company to let me book flights back a few days later.

  195. Courageous cat*

    I have been interested in becoming an underwriter lately but cannot find a single position, no matter how junior, that will take someone on with no experience in it (but plenty of experience otherwise). It’s pretty frustrating, because it’s really embodying the whole “can’t get experience without experience” loop.

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      What kinds of loans are you interested in underwriting? Maybe get a job assisting with that kind, to get exposure to the field? For instance, in home mortgages, a lot of the prep work is, essentially, pre-underwriting, and a lot of mortgage sales people have assistants to do the paperwork while they do the saleswork. Ideally you’d never send a loan in that wouldn’t be approved, so you have to know what underwriters are looking for.

  196. Hey Nonnie*

    So I have had a pretty consistent problem when it comes to interviews / job offers.

    In the interview, I make a point to ask about the workload, e.g. “In a typical week, what’s the workload like? Something like [specific number] of [specific task] along with [specific volume] of [specific other task], or something different?” In other words, trying to lead them to answering in concrete terms.

    I always, always, get a vague answer, something like “Oh, it’s typically pretty busy, some weeks are slower than others.” And then I’m left having no idea how to politely say “NO REALLY, I WANT TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY HOW BUSY I WOULD BE.”

    So I end up in jobs that are purportedly full-time, which requires maybe 10 hours a week of actual work, and the rest of the time I’m required to have my butt in their seat trying to look busy while my mental health rapidly deteriorates from boredom and frustration. I have no idea if I’m super-humanly fast, if every other employee has been taking them for a ride, or if they are so disconnected from the work that they honestly have no idea what needs to be done and how long it takes. Yes I do ask for more work; and no it doesn’t usually lead to getting more stuff to do (so I eventually give up and quietly die inside). I have not had a fully frank discussion of how little they’re using me, simply because I can’t afford to talk myself out of a steady paycheck, and I can’t see why they’d keep me around if they realized they didn’t need me.

    I’m not joking about the mental health issues, so I’d like to avoid this in the future, but I don’t know how without coming across poorly, or even if it’s possible given that it appears that the hiring managers seem to have no perspective on my duties or workload. If it’s a salaried position and the workload is that light, I’d rather just be able to leave when I’m done; but my sense of things is that it would be very frowned upon for me to even ask.

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      You need to talk to the people doing the work, not their manager.

      And you can say things like, “I really like a job where I’m just always moving from one task to another. The day speeds by and I love feeling energetic!” and see how they respond to that.

      1. Hey Nonnie*

        Figures. There has never been a second person doing the same job at the places I have interviewed, only one-person-per-area-of-responsibility. So if the manager doesn’t know, there is no one to ask.

  197. Jennifer*

    So I am the only one from my so called “team” here today.
    * Boss and one other person are out at a conference
    * Another one just did not show up at all whatsoever today or mention that he was going to be out
    * The last one left around 11:30, again without mentioning he was going to be out
    * The last two don’t have any “out of office” things on their calendars either.

    Why am I here? Except people would notice if I wasn’t here because I’m the only one who gets asked questions by the other teams. Only one person besides me (not a supervisor) even wondered where the other two were. Heck if I know, I said.

    Part of me kind of wants to tattle a bit because one of the abandoners is a jerk. But technically I don’t know if they called out/went home “sick” or whatever and I don’t want to look like an asshole, and they already don’t like me as is without my doing that. But part of me is rolling my eyes hard.

    It is such a low activity day anyway. I had one thing I had to do today that I had to be here for that I got done by 9 a.m. I did all the bits of paperwork that came in, and the rest of the day has been spent looking at pictures of animals in sweaters. And a third of the office already took the day off as is.

  198. Third-Round Interviewee*

    If I didn’t send follow-up emails after my first two interview rounds, and I just had the third (which I was told was the final) today, should I send a follow-up or will it look bad that I only sent it to the people I met today and didn’t before?

    For context, the hiring manager conducted the first phone interview alone with me; same manager was on the second round, which was a Skype video with a current person in the position; this third one today was the same manager again, in-person, with an upper-level person.

    1. Aly_b*

      I’d do it. Better to just do the right thing now than try to play some game about what you did or didn’t send before. If they do compare notes, better to have someone who got a thank you/follow up note than no one who did.

      1. Third-Round Interviewee*

        Update – thanks for the advice! I did end up sending emails to the two people I met in person, as well as one week-late one to the person who helped Skype-interview me the week before. The latter one already responded with a nice email, so I’m glad I went for it!

  199. Pseudoanonymous*

    Greetings from Indiana, where driving in circles for hours in a car that gets 5 mpg is considered a “sport.”

  200. Extra anon*

    My boss quit today. It will be a gradual transition and everything is on good terms, though we’re all sad to see him go. He’s built up our department from just a couple of people to over a dozen over the last 5 or so years. I’m the second in command (unofficial but recognized at high levels in my firm.) I am young and don’t have supervisory experience but could probably gain support from higher ups if I wanted to toss my hat in the ring to replace my boss. I suspect that unless someone way up opposes me, which I’m not really expecting, it’s mine if I want it, though I’ve already said I’m also totally happy to help bring someone new up to speed.

    I’m not sure if I want to become a department manager though. I could still help with some of the strategic planning and technical oversight if they hired someone else, though the final call would be theirs. I’d have to sign time sheets and approve vacations and stuff, which I’m mostly willing to trust someone else to do. If I can do the fun parts and avoid having to ever fire someone or something… do I do it? What am I not thinking of? What do you like or not like about the transition to management?

    I guess right now I feel like me asking for the position would be the lowest risk option and the thing that I’m most comfortable with, I’m just not sure if that’s quite the same as wanting to do it?

  201. Lavender Gooms*

    I don’t know if this is too late to be seen by anyone, but I did something at work today that MORTIFIED me, and it’s been giving me awful anxiety. Essentially I was discussing a new exhibit at a local art museum with a (male) coworker who said he was excited to go to it, and it happens to have a lot of art featuring the nude female form, some of which have exaggerated body parts.

    My husband happens to work at that museum, and I mentioned that in this exhibit and in the last one they had he’s gotten complaints, mostly from parents, about the nudity. I said, WITHOUT THINKING, to my coworker, “Yeah, he said that there’s, like, vaginas everywhere in this one, and people are just gonna need to get over that.”

    I SAID VAGINAS, Y’ALL. IN A CONVERSATION TO A COWORKER. I was immediately horrified (though tried not to show it), and fortunately he seemed unfazed and said, “Yeah, when I was looking at [the main artist’s] art online, I thought, ‘Man, that is an awful lot of… flowers.'”

    At this point I’m worried that (a) he’s going to complain about me, (b) someone else overheard me and will complain about me, and as a result of that (c) I will get fired. I have an excellent track record at work, but my anxiety has through the roof all day. Ugh!

    1. SpaceNovice*

      I think you’re probably fine! You didn’t go into graphic detail. I mean, you were already discussing the actual art exhibit and not just randomly saying that out of nowhere. He actually looked up the artist, so it’s okay!

      Also: I probably would’ve cracked up laughing if you had said that around me. I’m sorry. His quote just makes it funnier.

      You were discussing an art museum exhibit that prominently displayed vaginas and said vaginas. It’s literally relevant to the conversation. Art is… interesting that way. So you’re cool.

    2. Aly_b*

      I don’t mean to make light of your anxiety but that’s hilarious. I get why you’re stressed out about it (oh gosh do I get it) but it doesn’t sound like anyone was made uncomfortable by it (except you once you realized it.) The coworker you were talking to clearly understood what the exhibit was so it’s not like they’re alarmed by the existence of the subject matter. If anyone overheard they probably got the context, or if not, you can say that it was in the context of discussing an art exhibit, which I think most people would see as pretty reasonable. I think you can file this one under hilariously awkward rather than potential firing offence. (unless you’re in certain specific fields like childcare or a client or customer heard it, but it sounds like it’s just colleagues you’re worried about so it doesn’t sound like that’s the case.)

    3. periwinkle*

      When I worked an evening shift in IT, I would spend the occasional afternoon at art museums.

      Coworker: “Oh, I’ve never been to that museum. What did you see?”
      Me: “There was a really cool exhibit of East Asian ceramics. I took a quick walk through one of the painting wings but man, it was just Nipples On Parade there.”

      You’ll be fine.

    4. Hannah*

      It’s just a vagina. It’s not like you said the C word or something.

      It’s just a body part.

      50% of the world has one, and most members of the other 50% are quite enthusiastic about them even though they don’t get to have one of their own.

      I can’t imagine that anyone would complain about the simple word vagina, as long as you weren’t saying that you could grab them any time you wanted.

    5. Bea*

      AT WORST that’s a verbal warning of “hey, language/appropriate work conversation” BUT I don’t think that anyone logical would go there. You were talking about an exhibit and it was very much a reasonable conversation to have and it’s reasonable how this was an organic conversation. You weren’t running around screaming “VAGINAS VAGINAS EVERYWHERE!”

      Also you said vagina. It’s a proper term. Just like breasts. You didn’t say ‘puss…’ or “twat” or any of the offensive words that also mean vagina. I’m so sorry you are stressed! I hope after the weekend when nothing comes of it, you feel better. This is one of those embarrassing things that will be hilarious in a few weeks :)

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think that you’re probably okay given the context. If no one said anything immediately, it’s unlikely they will. And if the coworker you said it to was familiar with the artist’s work, then it’s doubtful he was offended.

    7. Courageous cat*

      It’s a little strange to me that you’re treating vaginas like it’s a bad word. It’s a body part and you were matter-of-fact about it. I can’t think of a single person my age (31) who would even remotely bat an eyelash at that sentence.

  202. periwinkle*

    It’s the day before a long holiday weekend in the U.S.

    My entire workday – and I’m not exaggerating, we’re talking 6:30am to 2:30pm – was spent preparing for and then participating in a conference call. It had to be conducted today, and we got a lot done on a really high visibility project, but it was still the entire flippin’ day.

    Ugh. I love my job but, ugh.

  203. Nines*

    Hey all! I have a big Federal Interview on Wed next week and I’m SO nervous! Anyone have any tips/insight? I Really want this job and have never interviewed for a government job at all, let alone a federal one.

    1. Not All Who Wander*

      First, good luck!!

      I’ve worked for all of the various federal land management agencies over my career and been on both the hiring panel side and the interviewee side more times than I want to think about.

      I think one of the biggest differences with federal vs private is that pretty much every agency and position I’ve ever dealt with has very, very firm policies that every single candidate must be asked exactly the same questions. If there is something on your resume or work history that you think they may have concerns about, you need to figure out a way to work it into something they ask you because they won’t be able to ask about it directly. (Disclaimer, there are a few managers who blow off this policy…my current one did and in retrospect it SHOULD have been a giant screaming red flag for me because it has turned out to be indicative of lots of other issues with his management).

      Another common thing is that they will have scheduled the time slots pretty closely. E.g., if they have you scheduled from 9-10am for an interview, their next interview is probably schedule for 9:15. It is really, really stunningly hard to get the entire hiring panel free at the same time so we usually do back to back to back all day long for a couple days. Quite a few panels will tell you how many questions they will be asking at the beginning (of course, then you get the ones with sub-parts….)

      If they give you the opportunity, take advantage to ask them questions about the job…federal position descriptions & job postings have been ridiculously standardized by OPM the last few years to the point it’s a 50/50 toss up whether they have any relationship on what you actually do day-to-day. If what they say about the job changes the way you would have answered a question (they usually let you ask questions at the end, which is less helpful), go ahead & take a couple minutes to provide them some more detail. (Biggest interview fail of my life: I lost out on a job because they weren’t convinced I had the experience to manage a tiny visitor center volunteer staff when I’d spent a year successfully managing a huge retail store but that position had barely come up in my answers. Gah!!!!!)

      Best of luck!!!

      (oh, and if you do get the job and it has paid relocation, you really really really need to plan for the initial tax penalty…the new tax law is seriously screwing that up)

      I’m assuming phone interview since nearly all of them are…don’t leave a ton of dead time. I interviewed a gal once who took about 45 seconds to write down every question before she answered it. 45 seconds is ALL ETERNITY when there are 5 of you on the hiring panel staring at each other around a speaker phone listening to the skritching of a pen.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Alison wrote up a great list for U.S. News & World Report of the 10 best interview questions to ask, which is located here:
      https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/04/18/the-10-best-interview-questions-to-ask
      They are all relevant to federal work. I would also make sure your answers are as succinct as you can make them, since Not All Who Wander is right, they’re probably only going to give you one hour. Also, be sure to get their work email addresses before you leave (either from them directly during the interview, or from the administrative assistant who handles your intake and departure, so you can write your thank you emails), because unlike in Corporate America, this is information that won’t be easily found/readily available on the Internet. And good luck!

  204. HurricanePopcorn*

    I’m starting a new job in a few weeks and I need to go from outspoken, always wanting to help and be engaged, to…retiring, nearly silent, and obedient. I like talking to people and I am about to be in a position where speaking out of turn or at all will get me in huge trouble. Starting my surgery residency, in other words.

    Short of Quaaludes, any suggestions?

    1. Argh!*

      You will have opportunities to talk in turn. When you’re not supposed to talk it’s because you’re supposed to be learning. If you can take notes when questions come to you, that will keep you busy and you’ll have something to go on when the time comes for a debriefing.

      Good luck and congratulations!

    2. ..Kat..*

      Good luck! As a bedside nurse, I recommend you touch base with them about your patients. We have a wealth of information that will help you take better care of your patients.

      Treat everyone well, no matter how “menial” their job. 1. It is the right thing to do. 2. We will look out for you and take care of you in ways you can’t even imagine at this point.

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        Friend of mine said he would have killed people during his medical residency if he hadn’t been nice to the nurses, they’d ask a pointed question and give him a LOOK if he was about to do something dangerous. “Hm are you SURE that’s the medication and dose you want to prescribe? You’re SURE?”

        They would not necessarily do that for the residents who were jerks to them.

        1. Gotham Bus Company*

          A nurse would knowingly endanger a patient’s life just because a resident is a jerk? Are you sure?

  205. char*

    I can’t figure out how or even whether I should address the problems I’m having with my coworker. She’s the lead on this team, and I’m her backup… but the backstory is that I used to be the lead, but I requested to step down because I couldn’t handle the stress, so she was brought in as the lead instead. I have serious reservations about how she runs our projects, but I feel like I gave up the right to criticize when I gave up being a lead (and dumped all the stress of running the projects on her).

    These past couple weeks have been especially bad. It’s been a firsthand lesson in how just throwing more people at a project won’t necessarily get it done faster or better. We accepted a project with a somewhat tight deadline, but it should have been doable with 2-3 people working on it. Instead the lead put about 8 people on it, some of whom had never worked with this client before, and everyone just sort of went at the task willy-nilly.

    I was pulled onto another client for a few days, and when I came back the project was a huge mess. Now one of my coworkers and I are trying to clean everything up. It’s honestly taking longer to consolidate all the redundant pieces and figure out where the gaps are than it would to just start over from scratch.

    I’m wondering how or if I should give feedback about how this project was handled, and if so, to whom. I’m worried that I won’t be able to say anything without sounding really frustrated, because I wish she’d just listened to me from the start when I told her this method would result in a lot of duplicated effort… but at the same time, I know I gave up the right to decide how the projects are run when I gave up being the lead. And besides, if it had been me, I probably would have made a total mess of the project too, just a slightly different sort of mess. I’m even wondering if maybe I’m the one who’s out of line here, for pushing back too much against the lead. And maybe I’m being too much of a perfectionist, because the project did get done in the end, it’s just that both the process and the end product were/are pretty messy. I don’t know.

    (Maybe what I really need to do is stop caring so much about how our projects go, since it’s not really in my control anymore…)

    1. char*

      Man, I already kind of regret posting this, because after thinking about it a little more, I’m pretty sure the actual problem is that I’m really bad at handling it when people want to do something in a different way than I would do it. Sounds like a me problem.

      1. Argh!*

        We all (should) learn from our mistakes, and your coworker has a learning opportunity here.

        In some fields, a “Lessons Learned” document is part of the project management mindset. Have you already given feedback? If so, your last words could be something like “Lesson learned: blah blah [one salient point]” just to model that kind of thing.

        “Perfectionism” when you really mean “do things my way” is something you can get over in time. Perfectionism when it means “don’t worry about the deadlines, we have to fuss over every little thing” is a bigger issue.

        Where I work we are in the end stages of a project that I had almost no involvement in. During the few meetings that I was included in, I could see that the people involved were fuzzy thinkers and approached things from the point of view of the process instead of thinking about the customer. I gave my input as much as I could (probably more than some people wished), and as we roll out various pieces of the project, it’s obvious that I did indeed have some points that shouldn’t have been ignored. The project lead always says I have good questions, but I have to wonder if he means it. The newest step, that I’d brought up, was delegated to someone (a man, of course) in another department.

        I just had to decide that as long as things are good enough for our customers, it doesn’t matter to me if we could have done things better. (Of course, things really aren’t good enough for our customers, but if people complain I’ll refer them to my boss, who will have to deal with it.)

    2. soupmonger*

      In my old job, we used to have a ‘wash up’ session after a project closed. The team lead would request these withvthe idea of gathering what went well, what went not so well and what we’d do differently next time.
      If your lead doesn’t have these, why not suggest them? I fully realise you feel awkward as you handed the lead over to her, but if you present the suggestion in a team-spirited collaborative manner, then it may well be adopted.
      I would also not feel you can’t make suggestions on how to make things run better – I think it depends on your approach. Don’t present it in a ‘I’d have done it this way’ style; try a more ‘can we try x and y to get the most out of the team’. I do realise that she may be hyper-sensitive to suggestions from you, too. Tricky, but definitely do-able, especially if you tell her that you are feeling awkward about making suggestions because of the team lead issue.

    3. Gotham Bus Company*

      I suspect that she deliberately ignored your advice because she wanted to make the project truly her own. Don’t be surprised if she later accuses you of not offering that advice or any other.

  206. Anonymous Ampersand*

    I had an internal interview this week. It’s a job I know I could do (and my line manager and team manager have said so too).

    I knew from the first question I want going to get it. They were really nice and tried to help me answer. But I had clearly prepared for the wrong interview. Then my Excel-fu totally failed me.

    So. I’m kind of half ok and half devastated. I really want that job.

  207. Legalchef*

    Probably posting this too late for anyone to see it, but oh well.

    I signed up to be a mentor as part of a program for law students who want to go into my practice area. The coordinator send an email to myself and my mentee on Thursday, making the introduction.

    Who is supposed to reach out first in this situation? I’ve never had a formal mentee before!

    1. Corine*

      If you haven’t been given any guidelines, I think it would be best for you to reach out first, to introduce yourself and start things rolling.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You’re senior, you reach out first. If they did first it wouldn’t be horrible – but from a general standpoint, you’re guiding so you start.

  208. Windchime*

    Yeah, I think I agree with RVA Cat. I’ve worked for this type of boss before, and it’s a very difficult situation. By the time I left, I truly wondered if I would ever be able to hold a job again. I was so beat down and demoralized and confused. Of course, I was wrong; as soon as I connected with my current boss and current job, I was able to see that I wasn’t the problem.

    So use some of the coping strategies that others have mentioned, but also look for a new job because this situation does not sound good.

  209. nomorejibbajabba*

    Ensnared by a horrible recruiter! I recently applied for a job that was posted on LinkedIn. The job was advertised by the company, but when I was contacted by someone from the company, they said they were ‘very impressed’ with my CV and they were referring it to their ‘recruiting partner’. I heard from that ‘recruiting partner’ the next day and we set up a Skype interview for the following day. The recruiter was a no show/no call. I got an email from him with the email subject line having the single word ‘rescheduled’. The content of the email was a grayed out box, he apparently sent me some sort of emoji and no words. It took several more emails back and forth to get him to use actual words instead of stupid cartoons or whatever they were. We rescheduled for the next day. Once again he was a no show/no call. I tried to Skype him, email, etc. nothing. Over half an hour later he sends an email that says “I thought you were busy’ and that he was interviewing someone else.

    I sent an email to the recruiting company and ask to get put in touch with a recruiter who was serious. I hear back from someone claiming to be an owner ( I think the company sells franchises) and that the recruiter I had was their ‘best recruiter’. She made excuses for his lack of professionalism. She offered to do the interview, but after she made excuses and the fact I had already rearranged a work schedule two days in a row for the scheduled interviews that never took place, I didn’t feel like wasting any more time with that company. In the meantime I saw the same job posted on a recruiting website and I contacted the original company to explain what happened and asked if I could schedule the interview with the other recruiting agency. I haven’t heard back and now I feel like my chances of getting hired are totally gone and it is because I got stuck with some loser of a recruiter. And telling the original employer made me look like a ‘diva’. I don’t even really understand why the original company ran an ad and then referred me to a recruiting agency, but I suspect it is because they are a land based company starting a new thing on international cruise ships and they don’t understand all the maritime required certifications that the applicants are going to need to start work on a boat. I already have all my certifications. Anyway, I haven’t dealt too much with recruiters but I never would have imagined one who just blows off interviews and uses smiley and frowny faces in professional communications. Is it too much to ask to be treated with some respect? I don’t know if there is any saving this situation. I told the recruiting agency I wouldn’t be doing business with them further.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      For the past few months, my husband’s work email sometimes sends me only the subject and nothing below. Is it possible it was that, rather than an emoji?

    2. Gotham Bus Company*

      They didn’t care about dealing with you because you weren’t the pre-ordained “preferred candidate.”

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      Go talk to the other recruiting agency. It really can’t hurt your chances, and you haven’t been submitted by the original one so that won’t be a concern.

  210. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    SUPER late (and actually outside of the date range in my location – it’s already the 27th!), but…I’m mad at myself for losing my “good” resume and only having the “bad” original draft on hand! But, I managed to get the resume re-done, finally – it just took me a week to do it. (And the cover letter pared down to something reasonable.)

    Well, okay, a week between everything else. Life has been crazy this past week – last Friday was my uncle’s funeral, last Saturday I ran a half marathon, I’ve been working extended hours all week at work (basically, on a normal day I’d leave my house at 6 AM and get home between 6-7 PM – granted, I commute about an hour each way, but still!), and went in today as well. (I didn’t HAVE to – I’m just non-exempt and approved for OT, so I wanted the money.) But it’s also Memorial Day weekend and I don’t want to submit it now because what if it gets lost?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Submit it now. It won’t get any loster today than it would on a regular weekend, which is to say, it won’t get lost.

      And check your “sent” emails to see if you attached the “good” resume to any outgoing emails. I’ve recovered the good version more than once that way, when a computer died inopportunely.

      (And the resume that you like? Email it to yourself in gmail or another web-based service. That way you’ll always have it available.)

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        With the resume: That was the problem! I thought I’d saved it in Google Docs and then I opened it and I realized it had an objective statement, my job duties and skills in blurbs, my typing speed(!), and my high school(!!!) that I graduated from over 15 years ago now (!!!!!). Thankfully, that was the first draft of many, and I did not send that out to anyone.

        I did need to update it anyway because I’d taken on even more responsibilities at my current job (as in, not only am I a shift supervisor, I also do all the invoices for my division of the company and volunteered to do most of the reporting), and I wanted to change a couple of things besides that. (To emphasize that I’m a database wizard, for instance.) This time, I saved it to Google Docs, my hard drive, and e-mailed copies. So I shouldn’t lose THIS one.

        As for the application, I just submitted it on Sunday because I was talking this over with my mother (who I consulted because she recently went through a successful job search herself), and she told me the same thing you did. (And I sound like such a child admitting that I had my mom review my resume and cover letter! But she had good feedback, I thought, and a lot of it matched what I’d seen on here.) Fingers crossed – it’s a bit of a reach for me and a move into a different field related to something I already do, but the job looks like something I’d really like to do! (It’s for a non-profit, and I think it’s a good cause. Which…I’m proceeding with caution, but I really would love to get it.)

  211. Canadian Teapots*

    I’m a little late to this, I realize –

    But I really would like to know (am starting a new job soon!) what the best way is to document stuff (and how to document extensively enough) without making it screamingly obvious that you’re intending to CYA in case you ever get contradicted on anything and can prove who’s right.

    If it helps, it’s a fairly highly regulated sector so I may be able to explain it away as wanting to be extra careful about my understanding of policies and procedures.

    1. Sam Foster*

      Either tags or folders to sort emails. Folders for documents. Print-as-PDF for emails that need to be put in folders with documents.

  212. Second Round*

    I’ve had several phone interviews with universities in different states, and now I am expecting that at least a few in-person interviews will follow. I am applying for administrative positions and wonder what to expect from the face-to-face interviews. I thought that my phone interviews were pretty thorough, even though I understand that they were phone screenings. What should I prepare for? Is it just that they want to see me in person, or will this second round be more in-depth?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      All of the above. They want to meet you in person. You’ll probably talk to different or additional people. (You may not even meet whoever you were on the phone with, but if you do, say something about it being nice to meet in person.) They’ll likely go into more depth because the phone screening is just that — it’s a filter to weed out some folks, so they can spend more much time on the people who look like good candidates.

      DO NOT WORRY about repeating yourself. Repeat yourself. The interviewers have been talking to multiple people, in addition to doing their regular jobs. They will not remember what you said in precise detail. You can say things like “You’ll see xyz job on my resume. In that position I tested new llama combs” and “My cover letter mentions my time at abc company, where I designed llama combs, and my previous testing experience was extremely valuable.” Don’t worry about “stating the obvious” — go ahead and connect the dots for them — think of it as making sure they have the information they need to see how fabulous you are.

      Good luck to you!

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