open thread – October 19-20, 2018

by Alison Green on October 19, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Religious Pictures at Work*

    At work I’m friends with Karen, who is more friendly with Marie than I am. I recently commented to Karen about some new pictures Marie put up at her desk. Karen said that Marie is Pagan and those are pictures of Gods and Goddess she says she believes in. There is nothing outrageous or distasteful in the pictures (no nudity, no violence, etc.). She has them hung up at her desk so they’re on the wall and kind of behind a cabinet, so I think she tried to put them up “discreetly” but you can still see them. I’m not even sure if some people would know these are pictures of “religious” figures, since they don’t seem to be universally recognizable (not like a picture of Jesus would be). Some of the pictures almost look like cartoon characters, so I don’t think everyone that saw them would know they had religious meaning to Marie.

    Is it appropriate for her to have these pictures up at work? I don’t really have a problem with them, but I can see the wrong person finding out and being offended.

    2. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      I don’t know. Is it different from wearing a cross necklace to work? Different from having your niece’s first communion photo up at your desk?

      I can’t get my head around anyone having a problem with this or getting offended – but hey, that’s why I live where I do. My office has a dozen religions and nobody soils their drawers over it.

      1. Blue Anne*

        I live near Cleveland. Not exactly Bible belt but not a bastion of tolerance, either. Even here I don’t think anyone would have a problem unless the job was at a Christian organization.

    3. bored_at_desk*

      I think it’s totally appropriate! There’s nothing evangelical about them, and the vast vast majority of people won’t know what they are anyway. Besides, I think most people would be fine with someone displaying a simple cross, or something like that. Maybe if she entertains a lot of clients at her desk who will ask questions about them I’d say no, but otherwise it doesn’t seem like a big deal.

    4. bb-great*

      I mean, even if it was a picture of Jesus, I wouldn’t see a problem with it. It’s relatively discreet, in her own workspace, and she’s not proselytising to her coworkers or treating them differently based on their own religious beliefs.

      1. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

        This is where I stand as well. If they are at her desk and she is not forcing conversations about them, then I don’t see a problem. If she was hanging them in public spaces or bringing people into religious discussions unprompted, then it would be inappropriate. I say “unprompted” because people may ask who/what they are out of curiosity, and she can answer that without launching into the history of her religion and why it is important to her and how others should join it because it’s the Best Religion Ever. My answer would be the same for any religion, this is not just about Paganism.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yeah. If she’s taping the pictures to your monitor, or arranging little effigies all around the walls of your cubicle to watch you while you work, that’s out of line. Decorating her cube with G-rated images shouldn’t bother anyone else.

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      Seems fine to me! I can’t think of anything religious that I find offensive. Is that a minority opinion? (I work in schools so my workplace radar is sometimes off.)

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        I wasn’t a big fan of the full ‘blood and spear wound’ crucifixion picture my cube mate had up, so we compromised so it was no longer staring at me.

      2. J*

        I would say most or at least a lot of folks would agree with you that this is fine. As far as whether or not *anything* religious can be offensive, I would argue that yes, something can be if it seems directed at other people. Specifically, my neighbor’s bumper sticker that asks “Do you follow Jesus Christ?” irritates me just a little bit every time I see it.

        So a sign in someone’s cubicle asking that question would feel inappropriate to me (unless they worked at a religious org), but a cross or a sign just saying that they love Jesus wouldn’t bother me.

    6. Cacti*

      As a Pagan woman, what specifically bothers you about these pictures? Would you be offended if another co-worker had bible verses or photos of Jesus? Really think about the double-standard here.

      1. Cacti*

        As a side note, I’ve have a small Pagan “altar” on my work desk for two years consisting of small baubles, crystals, and symbolism and not once have I been asked about it. It doesn’t interfere with my productivity or the way I handle my job.

        1. Quickbeam*

          I have an altar too. I also note the sabbats on a white board in my cube space. No one cares, even in my conservative office.

      2. Gaia*

        I can say that for me I would be bothered by both. Not bothered enough to do or say anything but it would strike me as inappropriate and in poor taste in a way that religious clothing or jewelry wouldn’t.

        2. Doodle*

          Sorry, just saw your reply that clarifies this below! I do think there’s something different about something in your office than on your person, though I ultimately come down on the “both of these things are okay” side.

          1. Gaia*

            I can see why some people would be okay with it (and that is why I wouldn’t say anything). I just think these things are best left out of the workplace because you can’t know what someone’s experience is with religion and I think it is best to leave such personal things to personal time.

        3. Justme, The OG*

          I am slightly amused that someone whose username is the same as the Mother Earth Goddess would be offended by a photo of a Pagan deity.

        4. designbot*

          I agree, I’d vastly prefer that religion just not enter the workspace at all. That said, I’d never speak up about it either, because it’s a subject that gets my hackles up and again, that I don’t want to discuss in the workplace.

      3. mark132*

        I don’t think that was the point. I think the question was are any religious pictures appropriate at work, pagan or otherwise. That was just for instance. It isn’t explicitly stated as such, but implied.

      4. Marion Ravenwood*

        If I’m reading it right, it’s Marie that’s Pagan, not the OP. The OP doesn’t mention their religious beliefs (if indeed they have any) as far as I can tell.

      5. Dexy*

        I would actually be offended by bible verses or photos of Jesus. I believe religion is a very personal belief system and it shouldn’t be brought into the work environment at all. Though to be honest, I would likely never say anything to the offender as I also believe that would simply call more attention to it and make the situation worse.

        1. No thank you*

          Same. The Christian religion has been used to harm people like me for a long time. Seeing pictures of Jesus or scriptures prominently displayed would be disturbing.

        3. MatKnifeNinja*

          With the mega church going folks at my work place, pagan pictures of gods/goddesses would start WWIII.

          I get crap for wearing my 22 bead Buddhist mala bracelet.

          We already had the big battle of Protestant faith based verses vs Catholic images in the cubicle farm. So instead of letting everyone “get offended”, now we can have none.

          The mega church people were so upset, that none was better than letting people have their small St. Whoever magnet stuck to the side of the desk.

      6. anon today and tomorrow*

        I’d be bothered by both, mostly because I don’t believe religion belongs in a workplace. Hanging things on a cube wall, regardless of what faith is involved, feels like lowkey demonstration. Pictures are there both for the person who put them up and for someone who enters the cube to see. It’s different than someone who has to wear clothing for their religion or chooses to wear a piece of jewelry about their religion, since those are for themselves rather than for consumption by anyone else.

      7. Lissa*

        I think it’s the opposite – the OP is thinking, it wouldn’t be OK to have pictures of Jesus up so does it become OK if they’re less obviously known as religious figures? But that could be *my* bias because I’m from a really secular place where one would definitely get side-eye for having obvious iconography at work.

      8. Artemesia*

        I actually think pictures of Jesus in the workplace are inappropriate and I suspect more people would have trouble with that than an unrecognized god figure. I lived in the South for my career and knew of places where there is subtle religious bullying, where ‘voluntary prayer breakfasts’ or other religious participation marked you out as an insider or outsider. I can easily imagine using pictures of Jesus and Biblical scenes to set that norm and make those who are not Christian uncomfortable. A picture of an unknown God or a Ganesha statue would not have that same kind of implied pressure. But all in all, it is probably a better idea to keep religious icons out of the workplace. I think we can distinquish between a cross necklace, or a communion or bar mitzvah picture of a relative from pictures of Gods and Goddesses.

        1. Elizabeth W.*

          I feel the same way. But if my coworkers were all about hanging crosses up in their spaces (I live in the Bible Belt so it can and has been a thing), then legally, they can’t give me any flack if I put up a picture of Ganesha or a little Buddha.

    7. GhostWriter*

      I don’t see anything wrong with religious items in cubicles or personal spaces. (As long as they are tasteful–as you said, no nudity or violence, etc.) I’m atheist and kind of think it’s akin to sports memorabilia–I’m not at all interested in it, but find no problem with other people being interested in it as long as they’re not trying to push it on others or harass people with it in any way.

    8. Antilles*

      Everything you’ve described sounds perfectly aboveboard with me.
      I’m not even sure if some people would know these are pictures of “religious” figures, since they don’t seem to be universally recognizable
      Honestly, I’d guess that the vast majority of people who see them wouldn’t link it with religion at all – most people would probably misidentify it as comic books/Marvel/etc. And even among the people who *do* recognize Athena/Apollo/Zeus/etc, their thoughts would probably tilt more towards “oh she must really like Greek Mythology” rather than identifying them as specifically religious drawings.

      1. Cacti*

        Exactly. But I must comment – even if they were seen as Religious, why is this weighed differently than a bible verse or photo of Jesus?

        1. Antilles*

          I don’t think it should be weighted differently based on the religion. If you wouldn’t have an issue with a cross, you shouldn’t have an issue with *any* similar religious symbols – no matter if it’s a photo of Zeus, a copy of the Koran, a small Buddha statue, etc.
          I was just mentioning that it seems likely that it wouldn’t even cross many people’s minds to think about it in a religious context – a cross immediately makes someone think of Christianity, but the Pagan Gods have been adopted enough into overarching American culture (via comic books, movies, etc) that it wouldn’t necessarily be someone’s first thought of “oh, she must be Pagan”.

          1. Cacti*

            Right! It shouldn’t be. but it often is. I work in public sector in the Bible belt so I feel a bit strongly on this topic, so I want to apologize if I seem biased. We have folks who put bible verses in their signatures, restaurant workers wishing “a blessed day, and God Bless!” when we pay, etc.

        2. Artemesia*

          It shouldn’t be weighted differently and. portrayals of Jesus or Bible verses don’t belong displayed either.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            Agreed. I’m not thrilled with any of it being displayed in the workplace, myself — not Jesus, not Mohammed, not the Buddha, not pagan gods and goddesses, not anything. And I say this as someone who has statues of Pele and Ganesh displayed prominently… in my HOME. Not my office.

    9. Bea*

      Unless she’s constructing an alter to sacrifice virgins on in her cube, I don’t see an issue. You had to ask to even know they’re pagan Gods. I know I would assume it’s just decoration and never even venture to ask “who dat tho?”

      2. Sacrifice Them All*

        This. Totally inappropriate to single out people due to their sexual histories.

        HR nightmare in the making.

    10. Gaia*

      Ooh that’s interesting. I do think it is inappropriate in the same way I’d think it was inappropriate to have a picture of Jesus hanging up in a cubicle. It seems like it is *more* than wearing a piece of religious clothing or jewelry but I can’t quite put my finger on why it feels that way.

      1. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

        I’m with you. Unless you work at a religious organization, I think it should be out of the office. In a largely Christian (or at least culturally Christian) country, can you imagine if the Satanists and Atheists started putting up decor of their faith or lack thereof? Wooboy, to be a fly on that wall.

        1. Doodle*

          I certainly don’t think anyone has an *obligation* to do that, but I do think it would be good if they did — learning that not everyone ascribes to the dominant culture or religion can be an important reminder.

          1. Elizabeth W.*

            Bingo.

            And religious freedom in the US is supposed to apply to everyone, not just Christians.

      2. it_guy*

        I would disagree with you. I am not a fan of decorating a cube with religious icons, but I don’t have a problem with it as long as it is not of an outrageous or distasteful manner. As long as it stays in the cube and doesn’t creep into conversations ending with “blessed be” or emails that start “As the gods foretold…”

        1. Gaia*

          My opinion probably comes from years of experience being in a minority in a majorly Christian area but I find obvious signs of religion to be very “in your face” and I just don’t find that appropriate. I wouldn’t say anything (and this is especially true of the religion were not the majority in the area) but I would question the judgement of the person.

          1. wittyrepartee*

            No, I get this. I’m from PA, and there was definitely a statusy thing in high school about carrying a bible with your notebooks. I noticed that at some point and found it unusual. Seems like, something that Jesus specifically said wasn’t a good thing….

        2. TheRedCoat*

          As the Gods Foretold, there will be a fridge cleaning this Friday. Remember to take home your leftovers from the icecream sundae bar!

          (I know it’s off topic, but I couldn’t resist. XD)

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I feel like the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be invoked in this thread, but I am unworthy.

        3. GhostWriter*

          I agree that there’s a difference between using religious items as cubical decoration and having it creep into conversation or e-mails. Decorations are just there–I’m not being involved in the religion at all and can ignore it. But when I was laid off from a previous job an HR person ended one of her e-mails to me with “I am praying for you.” I found that irritating. I don’t want people praying for me.

        4. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          She should be aware that these days if she’s into the Norse pantheon at all, that’s been co-opted by white supremacists to the point where they will feel comfortable coming up to her and oozing gratitude at her for “appreciating her Aryan heritage,” as I found out at the grocery store earlier this year (may I get a sympathetic “ew,” please? I could use one), and that POC’s may not feel comfortable around her.

    11. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      We have an unenforced “no religious decor” rule at my office. You can still wear cross necklaces and such, but it’s not acceptable for cube decor. However, there are some people who have a Jesus picture or bible verse up, and they largely go ignored. Unless it’s an over the top shrine, or someone asks that it be taken down, we ignore it.

      I think in this case, you treat it the same as you would treat a person with a picture of Jesus up. It’s interesting, though, if you had a “no religious decor” rule, would this person be able to slide under the radar because people don’t know who the religious icons are, whereas the Jesus person would get in trouble?

      Whatever you chose, I think you have to treat all the religious icons the same, either they are allowed or they aren’t.

      1. Artemesia*

        I would think the pictures were from some comic book (graphic novel) or video game or super heroes or something like that.

      2. MatKnifeNinja*

        When the cube farm had the big religious decoration war, my 2″ x 2″ picture of the Dalai Lama had to go. It was shoved way back in my cube, and no one could really see it. Didn’t matter.

    12. Admin of Sys*

      Assuming there’s not a company wide ban on all religious iconography, I don’t see why it’d matter.

    13. earl grey aficionado*

      I think the fact that you found this out from Karen and not Marie herself is what makes these pictures *completely* appropriate. Marie is clearly not proselytizing; they are personal, meaningful decorations for her office space. I actually think Karen is the one in the wrong here, if anyone is. I can’t quite tell from your comment whether she was sharing this information to inform you or to gossip with you, but I did get a rather gossipy vibe, which would be inappropriate. (As other commenters have mentioned, would it be this remarkable to you if another coworker wore subtle cross jewelry or had similarly subtle Christian decorations in their cube?) Leave Marie be unless she does put up inappropriately sexual images or starts evangelizing at some point.

    14. Jennifer*

      In a reasonable world it should be okay, but do you live in a reasonable world at your work? That’s going to be the decider. If Karen doesn’t like it and complains, l think we all know what would happen.

    15. Where’s my coffee?*

      I’m an atheist. I don’t care at all if religious stuff is hanging up at work, as long as no one wants to tell me about it or convert me.

    16. King Friday XIII*

      If it’s not obvious they’re religious, I think that’s different from someone who’s posted one of those Standard Fantasy Jesus or easily identified pictures of Krishna or something – I have all kinds of stuff in my cube that’s important to me for personal reasons but I really don’t want someone assuming or interrogating what personal meaning I attach to the picture of General Leia or Mr Rogers, or whether my Thor action figure needs to be treated differently from my Star Wars action figures.

    17. Observer*

      Why are you asking? Evein if ewveryone had reacted with “OMG! SOOO not appropriate!” (which they haven’t), what would you do with this information? I don’t see any way that this is something that you need to concern yourself with.

      1. Forking great username*

        This. OP, I think fact that you’re having conversations with this about coworkers and posting online to get other people’s advice on it is odd. It’s really not your business/concern unless you’re her boss or something.

    18. Liet-Kinda*

      I think the goddesses and gods have given you a pearl of great price: a problem you don’t need to involve yourself with.

    19. Sad Astros Fan*

      Here in Houston, no one would care. Well, unless you’re working for Joel Osteen (ew) or something…

    20. Smarty Boots*

      It depends on what her job is, is she interacting with people outside of the office and so on. For instance, nearly everyone in my office interacts directly with college students. We are careful about what we put up because we do not want students to feel uncomfortable or unable to trust that we will be fair. So for instance I have some stuff that makes it clear that I’m seriously a feminist, but that doesn’t include the pic of me at the Women’s March with the, um, strongly worded sign. I have a small New Testament on my desk, but not where students can see it — I have students of many faiths, and no faith. I have buttons about voting, but nothing about my political affiliation.

      It sounds like in this case there’s nothing like that, just coworkers. I could see a certain kind of person being offended, but that doesn’t make the pictures inappropriate. Rather, the offended person is the one who’s inappropriate :)

    21. Anono-me*

      I think that I’m reading this post a little differently than most people are.

      If you are asking if pictures of someone’s positive or neutral faith symbols being discreetly displayed in their own workstation is normal work place appropriate, even when the faith is small; then the answer is yes it is completely appropriate. (Unless your workplace has a blanket ban on religious symbols.)

      If you are also asking if someone CAN make trouble for your coworker over this; the answer is yes they might be able to. They should not, but it depends on the people at your organization.

    22. Jaid_Diah*

      I had a co-worker I shared a desk with (dayshift/nightshift), who thought I was a witch and had cursed her. She put up a palm cross, a statue of the Virgin Mary, and a printed page of a prayer of protection against me. I was bemused over the whole thing, but a less mellow person probably would have freaked out.
      PS, she moved to a different seat eventually.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Now you’ve piqued my curiosity… dI’d she think your tamales were spell bundles or something?

        1. Jaid_Diah*

          Well, she wasn’t entirely wrong. She’d been stealing the cubicle hook for sweaters because my sweatshirt was hanging a little bit over on “her” side of the shared cubicle wall. After so many hooks disappearing, I took white-out tape and wrote on the back of a hook that I cursed the thief with boils.
          No, I don’t know if it actually worked. But she took it seriously enough to bring EO in it. I explained that it was a joke based on frustration over many other missing hooks and apologized to her. The palm cross etc came after our meeting. She also hung one of those blotter sized desk calendars on the wall to note my “infractions”, like leaving my desk fan on by accident.
          She and her manager tried to move me out of our shared seat by some shenanigans (talking to the department manager without even talking to me and my manager), which annoyed the DM. Eventually, she was moved, not me.
          Neither of us were our best selves, I’m sure.

    23. Drago Cucina*

      Don’t care. I have a small (2″x3″) icon of St. Jerome over my office light switch. I can see it from my desk. It’s not obvious to anyone else. It’s smaller than the Pentacle that a staff member has in her cube that I can clearly see from my doorway. Again, I don’t care. The only religious questions would involve scheduling. ‘Hey, will there be a solstice conflict for you?’ or ‘Are you planning on taking vacation during this time?’

        1. Drago Cucina*

          Yeah, it helps build morale to respect adults making their own choices. We joke that we’re our own cult.

    24. SechsKatzen*

      If they’re pictures on her desk and not distateful, then I can’t see a reason for anyone to be offended. If we’re talking about Pagan gods and goddesses the average person probably wouldn’t even recognize them as being religious in nature.

      Then again, I admit to being biased because I have two Orthodox icons in my office and do meet with clients in there. I assume that even though the specific type of art is slightly different, it’s at least nominally recognizable as being Christian in nature.

    25. Database Developer Dude*

      On the civilian side of the house, as long as no one’s trying to proselytize, I don’t see an issue with it. On the military side, they have an issue with it, so much so that someone got a bad conduct discharge for refusing to remove bible quotes from her workstation.

      The last gig I was on where I had my own desk, I had pictographs all over the walls of my cube with images for the Army, Army Reserve, my rank, the Square and Compass, the Triple Tau, the icon of the World Taekwondo Federation, a picture of me getting my 2nd Dan, and a picture of me reenlisting a friend at the National Archives in front of the Constitution.

      No one batted an eye, at all, and we had some hyperreligious folk in the office who may or may not have had an issue with Freemasonry. They never said anything to me.

  2. GigglyPuff*

    This sounds like a really stupid question, considering I think of myself as fairly technical. I’ve never had to do formal presenting until I started job interviewing last year (typical of my field), the first one, I had to use screenshots which turned out awful. I have another one coming up soon where I want to use screenshots again. I do have access to a higher resolution monitor this time. Would 1920×1080 resolution, be good enough for the presentation (I’m going to assume on a presentation drop-down screen)?

    1. ChemMoose*

      I recommend saving your screen shots at either jpegs or png files. Check what resolution you can get with your screenshots, and when you can avoid scaling the images larger than their actual size. The increase in size often results in blurry images.

      1. WannaAlp*

        Please do not save screenshots as JPEG images. The JPEG format is specifically good for photographs (stands for Joint Photographic Exerts Group, iirc), and will end up making more precise images, like most screenshots, look unnecessarily blurry at the edges. The JPEG format is a “lossy” format (it loses data when you save the image).

        PNG is perfectly good for screenshots and will store your image precisely without any data loss.

    2. Enginerd*

      Try using a third party software to capture your screen shots. It will allow you to grab just what you need instead of the entire monitor and save it in any format you want. If you have Windows 10 there’s a built in snipping tool but I recommend Greenshot (its free) or Snagit if your company will pay for it.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Love Greenshot, that’s what I use at home. My company computer has SnagIt, and that’s what I used last time. Definitely used either jpg or png, and set it up as high quality through the software, but still turned out awful, so I figured it was the monitor resolution.

        1. Enginerd*

          Its a possibility but it could also be the monitor you’re trying to present on. You can try adjusting that presenting end. I’ve had issues at conferences with Powerpoint resolution and the easiest solution was to turn the Powerpoint slides into a PDF file and present that way.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I believe I learned that the built-in Windows snipping tool has a built-in max resolution, so third-party is definitely the way to go.

    3. SCORMHacker*

      I have to take screenshots all the time for presentations (I use Snagit, and sometimes just ALT+PrintScreen), and you should be in good shape at 1920×1080 and saving as PNG. Also when you save your file, check the options on the Save dialog box (the Options button is to the left of Save) and make sure it’s set to at least True Color (24-bit). I save mine at True Color + Transparency (32-bit) and have excellent resolution.

    4. Jaguar*

      For the best results, you should find out what the resolution of the display you’ll be using is and match to that, which will avoid having to depend on scaling from the software you’re using to present, which can look pretty bad if has to scale up or down. Failing that, 1920×1080 is a safe bet – resizing down is better than resizing up.

      If you don’t have image editing software and are using Windows, IrfanView is a free project that will give you good, basic image editing functionality (crop, resize, etc.) and its image resampling is comparable to Photoshop, meaning you won’t lose much definition if you’re resizing an image.

    5. ExceptionToTheRule*

      1920×1080 is standard HD video size, but pay attention to dpi as well – the higher the better for resolution.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        DPI is only really relevant if you’re printing something – you divide the length of the image (1920) by the size in inches you’re printing at, and you want that number to be at least 72 for, but 150-300 for high quality print. If you’re showing on a monitor or TV screen it’s the resolution that counts. Projectors usually have a native resolution and anything higher than that will make the file bigger but not look better.

        Aside from resolution there are two things I can think of to check – the format you’re saving in and how you resize the image. jpg compresses the file to save, which can lead to odd results in some cases. png supports lossless (ie uncompressed files) which are bigger but sometimes cleaner. And rescaling images to different sizes can be more complicated than you think.

    6. Yay*

      Someone mentioned the windows snipping tool, but I recently discovered that mac computers have one as well! It is called grab (and as someone who is fairly technical, I was surprised I didn’t know about it!)

      1. AcademiaNut*

        And grab has a full screen option but also the ability to select a particular window, or a region of the screen.

  3. Anon here again*

    I’ve been at my job for a year now and I still feel like every day is my first day. There are people who still don’t say “Hi” or “Good morning” to me, even though I say it to them. Some of them *only* talk to me when they need my help with something.

    I’m guessing that it’s not a good fit for me because the people that I’m surrounded by are a lot more outgoing than me and maybe I just don’t fit in with them. I tried bringing donuts, bagels, nothing works.

    Other times I get upset and think it’s just me because there is a girl who is also quiet in my section, but they still eat with her. (With me, they literally got up and left the table. I guess she doesn’t bother them as much?) Otherwise they go out and completely ignore that I’m sitting there. I guess I’m just the odd person out, but it still sucks. The woman that I work directly with will literally avoid eye contact and just pass right by me.

    There’s also a girl in another dept who just started last week and she already goes out to eat with a bunch of guys, so she even has people to eat with already.

    I know I’m whining and this isn’t helping, but I just don’t understand what you have to do to fit in with this place and be accepted. (Why am I not fitting in?) Has anyone ever been though this? What did you do?

        1. Not a Badmin anymore*

          I agree. Not saying the problem is you, however there are some things that have caused me to distance myself from coworkers when I just didn’t enjoy their company. I’ve never done anything as mean or cliquish but will come up with something to do (during my unpaid lunch) so I don’t have to spend it with them. Usually I take a walk or would use homework (when I was in grad school) as an excuse to get out of a lunch invite.

          Reasons I’ve “iced out” coworkers:
          -Frequently interrupt myself other people in conversation, making them a lot less enjoyable to be around
          – Lunch invites consisted all about pleasantries and small talk which is quite draining to me
          -People who pry for personal information, when I wanted more boundaries.
          -People who complain all the time (my lunch is not a therapy session!)

          Is there anything like that maybe has happened? The point being that sometimes you’re just not a match and there are other things beyond your control. I wish I could let certain things not bother me but we’re humans and I decided to spend my lunch by myself or doing something not involcing than with the people I was with all day that I just didn’t click with.

      2. Anon here again*

        Nope- it has never happened in my previous jobs. (I usually had people who sat with me.)

    2. Formerly Arlington*

      Are they just very cliquey? Do they have dramatically different personal interests than you? Maybe try to pay attention to what they watch on TV or music or movies/social media and if you like that stuff, too, join the dialogue? Also, are you connected on social? Sometimes you can escalate your relationships (in a good way) if you are liking/engaging with things they are posting from their non-work life…

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        I wouldn’t let people who are freezing me out at work anywhere near my personal social media. Not that I connect with coworkers there anyway, but especially not if they couldn’t even acknowledge me in the office.

    3. Carnaxide*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. I’m dealing with something similar in my company, where I have some people who only speak to me when they need something but that seems to be the general feel here for everyone, except for a select few who are friendly with each other. My boss often doesn’t say good morning unless she sees me (we have high cube walls here) which to me is odd as I work as her Exec. Asst.

      I don’t know what to suggest but I do feel for me that it’s a part of the ‘not fitting in’ and needing to find another job. Best of luck to you!

    4. bored_at_desk*

      Or is there anything about you that you know is different from most of the others? (For example, religion, age, political beliefs, have or don’t have kids, different sense of humor)? Or have you had any weird/awkward/rocky interactions with anybody?

      By the way, I’m sorry this is happening – it sounds very rough.

      1. Anon here again*

        I’m very quiet and they are all more outgoing/talkative than me. I’m also single and they are either married, engaged, have children/grand kids.

        1. Stegosaurus*

          This is probably a big part of it. I really noticed once I had a kid that people talked to me more, especially strangers in public. It’s like I got initiated into some secret club. People like to talk to people who have things in common.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          This may seem very calculating…but do your siblings or friends have any kids that you could post school pics of just to try and break the ice?

        3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          Wow, that sucks! No advice, except that Maria Bamford’s “Vennette” routine can be a bit of balm.

    5. Been There*

      I’m sorry you’re experiencing this!
      It can be so hurtful to feel rejected.
      I’d find the most welcoming/least distant person and try to make a connection: compliment their sweater, comment on the weather, anything innocuous. Or be bolder and ask them to lunch. Some offices have a “cold” culture. Where I work, no one says good morning. It took some getting used to.

    6. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

      This really sucks, especially because it seems very personal. If it weren’t for the other women being included I would hand waive this as the group not being inclusive of new employees. This might be hard to consider, but is it possible you did something to turn people off? The behavior you’re describing of getting up from the table when you sit down is especially concerning, the only time I’ve ever seen that happen is when someone was really insulting or behaved really inappropriately and it spread like wildfire to the rest of the group. If an instance like that happened and it’s the only data point people have, then they might have written you off as a result.

      Could you speak to your manager and see if there’s anything s/he can point out or advise you on? Otherwise, your reading of the office might be correct, in that it’s just not the right environment for you and maybe toxic. Seriously, ignoring people that say hi? That’s pretty petty without additional context.

      1. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

        Yeah, I agree. Getting up and leaving the table when you sit down (unless they just *happened* to all finish their meals at the same moment) is a very deliberate and hostile move; it’s on another level than simple cold-shouldering. I don’t think this is (necessarily) about them being jerks or just being more outgoing than you or colder than you or normal office culture differences. They do. not. like. you. It sounds like it sucks. Maybe you can figure out why? Maybe it was one specific incident that you don’t even remember but could smooth over. Otherwise, I would stop viewing it as something you can fix and start considering changing jobs or deciding you’re OK with working somewhere where everyone hates you.

        One random idea: you could ask one of the newer people if they know what the deal is. They might have been told about you (if they truly hate you for a reason, that might be something they’d warn newbies about) but not be personally invested enough in the social order yet to take sides strongly.

        1. J*

          This is a good suggestion. This doesn’t even mean you did anything *objectively* bad, but if someone was upset by something and the office is very cliquey, they might have all written you off based on that one person’s opinion.

          I also wonder if you can ask your boss about this. I definitely wouldn’t ask her to explain how *everybody* is feeling, but I think it’s reasonable to talk to her about her own feelings. Something like: “I’ve gotten the sense that you prefer to limit your interactions with me — did I do something upsetting?”

          I’m so sorry you’re going through this; it sohnds really terrible.

    7. Master Bean Counter*

      When I got presented with a similar situation I just stopped trying. Once I stopped caring I actually got along better with everybody. Mostly because I wasn’t nearly as invested.

      1. Anon nonprofit worker*

        Yeah, I agree with this. Up until about two years ago I always had at least one good friend at work, but after my work friends left my current job I felt quite lonely and found myself taking it personally when others would do things and not invite me. It was bothering me enough that I had to just stop having any expectations for friendship with my coworkers and it actually has made me feel a lot better.
        My coworkers are all nice enough, we’re just probably not going to be that close and I still prefer having a cordial and professional workplace (which I do have) over a hostile one.

    8. Antilles*

      There’s no nice way to sugarcoat this: You work with a bunch of jerks. Let me cherry-pick some sentences here:
      There are people who still don’t say “Hi” or “Good morning” to me, even though I say it to them.
      I’m interpreting this as you say hello and they just ignore you…which is completely and totally out of step with the norms of our society.
      With me, they literally got up and left the table.
      Are your colleagues 15 years old? Because this sounds like something pulled straight from a high school movie.
      The woman that I work directly with will literally avoid eye contact and just pass right by me.
      Avoiding eye contact is ridiculous. Even if she didn’t like you, the typical norms of human behavior are to at least glance at you and acknowledge you exist.
      All of this is waaaaaaaay beyond the limits of normal ‘sometimes people just don’t click’ and into the territory of intentional shunning – like the kind you’d only see if you’d run over someone’s dog in the parking lot or something.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        I don’t particularly think getting up to leave the table when someone sits down is always immature. I used to do this at my former company when a homophobic colleague tried to sit with my group at lunch. I’d rather be seen as rude in that instance than endure his presence.

        1. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

          Yeah, I think it’s a really bold statement that tells me that these coworkers specifically don’t like OP for (probably) very specific reasons. And depending on what those reasons are, it may be entirely appropriate, or at least feel entirely appropriate based on their understanding of OP/what OP might have done to them.

          1. Ender Wiggin*

            Exactly. All the other things could be just being cliquey or mean, or OP not fitting in. But getting up and walking away is a really really clear sign that they do not like you and want you to know that. It’s not the same as “not fitting in”.

            Does that mean it’s your fault? No. They could be a bunch of bullies and have decided to bully you for some reason. Or they could have a good reason why they dislike you so much. Or it could all be based on a simple misunderstanding and rbey think they know something about you that makes you worthy of hate but they are wrong.

            But whatever this is, it’s a lot more than “not fitting in”.

            I agree with the comment above saying you should ask your manager if she knows what the cause of this is.

        2. Bea*

          Yeah, I can see this being something people do if you have a huge issue between you and another person.

          But I’ve also seen homophobes or racists do this. So instead of you distancing yourself from the bigot, you’re surrounded by bigots who shun you.

          So I’m wondering if the commenter is “different” than the rest somehow. I was shunned in school for being fat so…

        3. Antilles*

          Right, but I’m assuming that the commenter is a generally decent person – maybe with a few unique views or differing political opinions (most people do), but nothing so blatantly offensive that it would explain the *entire office shunning her*.

    9. Gaia*

      You aren’t being whiney, this is a really tough situation to be in.

      Are you in a different type of work than the others? Could it be a matter of “out of sight (even if not literally)/out of mind?”

      Have you asked them to lunch? This can be scary, especially if you feel you aren’t being accepted but you might try with the office social butterfly or the friendliest of the group.

      Do you struggle to make social relationships in other contexts? This isn’t to make you feel bad, this is a real skill that has to be learned and practiced! A lot of people find it doesn’t come naturally (including me and I’m the kind of person that CRAVES social interaction!)

      Is there someone you trust outside of work that you could talk about this with honestly (and who you think would give you honest feedback)? There may be small approaches you could adjust. Or there may be nothing you need to change at all!

      All that said, it might just be the culture there. I wouldn’t like that culture. Some places are friendlier than others. Only you can decide if this is a “deal breaker” for you.

    10. Retired. Retired. Working*

      Did something happen before you arrived?
      Did your co-workers want someone else to get the job?
      Did you replace someone they felt shouldn’t need replacing?
      A year is a long time to hold a grudge, though.

      1. JanetM*

        “Did you replace someone they felt shouldn’t need replacing?”

        Or even someone who left on their own terms, retired, whatever. I think I remember a letter where a beloved coworker had died, and every attempted replacement was hounded out.

      2. valentine*

        Yes, this sounds like they decided not to like whoever was in your role.It could also be a culture difference, Anon here again, where you are waiting for them to take you into the fold while they expect you to court them. Do you speak to them about nonwork stuff? In a group, do you sit silently or join in? (Some people experience silence as hostility, when, for me, and perhaps you, it’s nearer to bliss.) Are you leading by example and treating the new person the way you want(ed) to be treated? If it’s not too late, befriend her and see what happens.

    12. Is pumpkin a vegetable?*

      Can you ask a close friend outside of work if there might be something you’re missing? Is their possibly a hygiene or appearance issue? (I hope you don’t find that to be an upsetting question…just trying to make sure you leave no stone unturned as they say.)

    13. Lissa*

      You’re not being whiny, I think this would be extremely hard! As for why – well we can’t know that but I think there are a few possibilities.

      You work with a bunch of people who are coincidentally all terrible and have decided to be awful to you for no reason at all while embracing other new people/quiet people.
      You’ve done something unknowingly to put them off or been accidentally involved in a situation that has made them not want to be around you.
      It’s an issue of miscommunication, somehow.

      This seems way more overt than just not inviting you places – they are going out of their way to avoid you? That does sound personal/targeted. If it were me, i would try really hard to figure out why, though I don’t know that that’s the best response. Maybe talk to one of the new people, or if anyone seems marginally more friendly…? In most cases I fall into the “not everyone has to be friends” camp but this just sounds so extreme to me, not just a clique.

    14. Bea*

      This sounds like high school. I shivered a bit and I’m sorry this is happening to you at work.

      Some places are full of cliques or snobs.

      I was the outlier in school so I’m extra sensitive to it. Often it’s more unintended than it feels as the outsider.

      I’ve learned being myself and being happy on the outside is necessary. I’m not pulling a “get over it” on you. It’s easier said than done. I’m saying be happy with yourself and be good to yourself. Others will be drawn towards it. Otherwise you can be giving off vibes that they pick up on as “leave me alone.”

    15. Lily Rowan*

      I had a job where I was a bad cultural fit, although not nearly as bad as what you’re describing! I just kept my head down and did my job and stopped worrying about it. A coworker from there went on to a new job as a manager elsewhere, and hired me to work for her there. I found out later that she had “warned” the new team that I was good worker, but super quiet and they shouldn’t think I was unfriendly. Of course I got there and fit in much better, and my real personality came out! She was kind of shocked (in a good way!).

    16. literal desk fan*

      Something similar happened to a friend of mine, except that she had started out getting along with people and then all of a sudden they turned cold. It turned out that a compulsively-lying coworker had told their other coworkers that my friend had exhibited weird stalkerish / clingy behavior towards her! The lies turned the other coworkers off from interacting with my friend.

      Is it possible something like this could be happening here? Especially if, as another coworker suggested, they maybe wanted someone else to get the job. Or could you maybe have said something, told someone something about yourself that they might have been turned off by and might have told others about in a negative way?

      It sounds like it isn’t hindering you from doing your job, at least. But I understand it can be tough if you can’t also feel friendly towards the people you work with. If you can’t get to the bottom of it, you might want to try to seek out connections to people in another department.

    17. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Honestly if this was happening to me, and I truly didn’t know what had set them against me, I would just ask about it. Approach one of the people, maybe your co-worker and say “Hey, maybe I’m being overly sensitive, but I’m getting the vibe people are avoiding me and don’t want to socialize with me. Did I do or say something to put people off?” SOMETHING happened here, and if people weren’t friendly from day one than it might not be about you.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        Totally agree with this approach. And I’d try to ask whichever co-worker seems to be the nicest (tough, I realize, considering the circumstances). And even if they don’t tell you the reason, I assure you, they’ll likely tell the rest of the group that you asked, and groups like the one you described tend to behave at least a little differently once they’ve realized that you’re willing to speak up for yourself and confront them/the issue.

      2. MatKnifeNinja*

        The problem with that tactic, is you have to accept whatever answer is given.

        My cousin has Aspergers, and people were actively avoiding him. It’s really hard to take someone telling you point blank, “You are an weirdo, and I/we don’t want to spend our lunch with you.” I think that was job #3.

        I don’t think many people can shake that off and just go back to work. And that leaves the questioner with no where to go in the conversation. Probably not many people want to delve into what makes them a weirdo to their coworkers.

    18. CRM*

      Sorry to hear that OP, the dynamic between you and your coworkers sounds strange and uncomfortable. Ultimately, you need to remember that your job doesn’t have to be the place where you make all of your friends, and for many people it isn’t (myself included). It certainly helps the day go by faster if you are friendly with your colleagues, but there is no need to force it if things aren’t meshing. As long as their catty behavior isn’t affecting your ability to do your job (i.e. refusing to help you, intentionally withholding information, ect.), just ignore them any focus on your relationships outside of work.

    19. Observer*

      This sounds really, really hard. And it’s quite possible that you just work with a bunch of jerks and that’s the whole story. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it’s possible that something about you, something you said or did, or something people THINK you said or did is at the root of this. So, it’s really worthwhile to find out if that’s part of the story. And, I do mean PART of the story, because even if there is a legitimate reason for this behavior, it’s almost certainly not the best way to be handling whatever their issue.

      If you’re coworkers really are a bunch or jerks, bigoted or not, I hope you start job searching because this is REALLY hard, and you can’t really expect people to stop acting like (bigoted) jerks. It’s hard in any case, of course, but if it’s something you did you may have a chance to fix it.

    20. Minocho*

      I had it happen at this job. It wasn’t pinging on my radar that much, but my boss addressed it, and seemed very concerned. After he brought it up a couple of times in our 1 on 1s, I kept an eye out and realized that this one guy, very connected in the department, wouldn’t eat with me. As he was connected and friendly with most everyone, if he was eating with people, I wouldn’t be invited.

      I found other coworkers, also on the outs with this dude, to hang with. And when that guy wasn’t around, I could eat with his buddies no problem. Then this guy started acting out toward me – it eventually got so bad that other coworkers complained to management about how he was treating me, and he went nuts on me when my boss was around, and my boss ( a personal friend of this guy) stepped in to put a stop to it.

      After that, I was able to occasionally invite myself along to lunch, even when he was there. Now different people have different schedules, but the clique was broken up.

    21. Someone Else*

      Something that stuck out at me in your post was this:
      There are people who still don’t say “Hi” or “Good morning” to me, even though I say it to them. Some of them *only* talk to me when they need my help with something.

      I’m guessing that it’s not a good fit for me because the people that I’m surrounded by are a lot more outgoing than me and maybe I just don’t fit in with them.
      It sounds to me like you may have it backwards? If you’re saying hi and they’re not, it seems like maybe you’re being more outgoing than they are?
      I don’t think you’re wrong that this may be a bad fit.Only talking to someone when you need a work-thing from them at work is totally the norm at my company. It doesn’t have anything to do with not liking someone or being in any way personal. It’s just…all work.
      That said some of what you’re saying does sound more personal, but I think it’s also possible you might be too in the weeds on this to be objective. It’s not that I distrust your point, but I think it’s possible you may be reading too much into it, but it’s impossible to tell since we only have your perspective. I’m throwing that out there in case it might help: from their perspective this may all be NBD, whereas to you it’s weighing on you mightily.

    22. CleverName*

      I had this happen to me from day one at a recent job at a library. The folks who were supposed to train me just actively avoided me and I had to constantly ask for them to teach me my job. It seemed to be the culture there, mostly perpetuated by folks who had been there for decades. The way they treated patrons was similar. I talked to management, and the assistant director (who was fairly new) had gone through the same thing when she started. I couldn’t handle it (and the job was very boring and low paying), so I quit after two weeks. Management was very understanding. I am so sorry you are going through this and think you deserve a reward for putting up with it for so long. Could you talk to your manager about it?

    23. The Other One*

      This is NOT your fault. It is very unprofessional and mean of your colleagues to shun you like that.
      Since you don’t know why and it’s never happend before, I think it’s likely that you unknowingly crossed some unwritten office rule, inadvertently slighted one of the “mean girls/boy” or even that one of them just doesn’t like you and blames you for it, allthough you did nothing wrong. (With “mean girl/boy” i mean people who tend to be narrow minded and gossipy and think highly of themselves and poorly of everyone who ist different and are often opinion leaders.)
      Something similar happend to me once (I’m an introvert too). In my case I even knew why (I said something that was perceived out of line), but since nobody was talking to me I had no chance to explain / apologize. No help from higher up, because it wasn’t regarded as serious. Shunning is insidious that way. (I ended up leaving for a variety of reasons.)
      I believe the best you can try has already been mentioned: Ask your manager if they know or noticed something. Ask one of the friendlier / newer coworkers what’s going on. (Though they might predend not to have noticed anything. Don’t believe them, trust your instincts.) Ignore them back and tell yourself that they are just jerks. (They are.) You can try to observe what they do and you don’t or vice versa, but don’t obsess over it. If you haven’t already, you could also ask your friends if they can think of something that might rub other people (particularly extroverts) the wrong way. But don’t try to be someone you are not because of some jerks. Don’t try to ingratiate yourself with food or favors, you’ll only get taken advantage of.
      If you can’t ignore your rude coworkers and feel bad because of them, you might be better off finding another place of work. Good luck and internet-hugs if you want them.

  4. RR*

    Seeking guidance on addressing unconscious bias and tone policing:

    It is performance assessment season at my organization. I am a white woman in a senior position as a department director. I am new to the organization, but not new to this work. My predecessor, an older white male, retired and the department was in freefall for over a year before I came on board. We are a support unit, with a compliance function, so we are often in the position of having to tell folks they can’t do what they want to (or at least not in the manner they’d like). We also have really old, inefficient processes with not much in the way of helpful explanations or tools for staff. While I don’t want to throw my predecessor under the bus, it is becoming increasingly clear he had some gaps in his approach to management. I get the sense he was quite hands off, to say the least.

    My department had earned the reputation of being difficult to deal with. I am working with my team to foster a greater sense of teamwork and internal customer service. One of my direct reports, a white Hispanic woman, has as one of her direct reports, a Black woman who has been with the organization for many years. She has consistently earned solid performance reviews. My direct report and I would like to work with her to move her performance into the exceptional rating and towards a promotion. She is clearly smart and capable, and we have the sense that she could do more. I also know that she believes she should be holding a more senior position than she currently does.

    As part of the assessment process, managers solicit feedback from across the organization. We received numerous comments about this employee’s tone – many describing it as abrasive or condescending. When her manager raised this during the review, the employee noted that this is often gendered and racial. Both her manager and I feel this is a fair observation. I myself have been on the receiving end of similar observations in the past. I also think that white males at my organization get a pass on behavior that should be called out, but that doesn’t mean the behavior itself is okay. One challenge we are facing is that sometimes she expects people to know/remember processes that they really can’t. Her tone can convey frustration and come across as rather sharp. On the other hand, there are times she is just (as she herself notes) loud and direct. I like direct. I don’t want her to try to be someone she isn’t. Blunt is fine; snapping at folks who have unrealistic expectations is understandable, but not so fine. I want to see her continue to succeed and advance at our organization, and I want to do what I can to help make this so. For folks who have been on either (or both) sides of this issue, any recommendations/suggestions/other advice?

    1. LCL*

      I would start with a meeting with your direct report. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss how to move your longtime employee into the promotion she deserves. You say she could do more. Identify specifically what doing more would look like. Make sure that doing more isn’t doing more than what the white people do. Then tell her. The one specific I see is that, to state the obvious, people who don’t work in compliance don’t remember all the details. Remind her that she deals with it every day. Is there a page somewhere in cyberspace where longtime employee and others in your group can refer people outside the group to check?

      When you are talking with other managers and lobbying for her promotion, remind them that compliance work is adversial by nature. Of course there will be some minor animosity towards people who work in the compliance group, from a production perspective you are impeding it. Ask these managers to not let their irritation with the role of compliance pass over someone for a well deserved promotion.

    2. BRR*

      Ooh great question! I’m on the side of things right now where my tone has been called into question by others. The very few examples were times where I was more direct than is typical in my office and I think there are a lot of people out there who equate all directness with rudeness. My manager pointed out that while she doesn’t mind, it’s about adapting to the office culture a bit. Basically that I have to play the game a little bit to get ahead. A big difference is that I’m a white male, which historically hasn’t had issues of being tone policed. So I sucked it up and put more effort into using softer language at certain times. Can you specifically point out the instances of snapping if it’s with particular people or situations so it doesn’t feel biased?

    3. Mimi Me*

      “Her tone can convey frustration and come across as rather sharp. On the other hand, there are times she is just (as she herself notes) loud and direct.”

      My very first question, when I read these sentences, is who are these complaints from? Are they overwhelmingly male or very junior to her? I ask only because over the years I have noticed that if I speak in a calm, firm, direct tone people (mostly men and very young people – teens and possibly very early 20’s when it happens) accuse me of yelling at or scolding them harshly. It became such an issue with one male manager that I literally had to bring in witnesses to our conversations to prove that this was not the case. Even with my own husband – when he tells me a story about how a woman yelled at him I will ask “did she really raise her voice or did she just state her expectations firmly?” Most times it’s the second option.

    4. Sabine the Very Mean*

      You said it best here, “One challenge we are facing is that sometimes she expects people to know/remember processes that they really can’t. Her tone can convey frustration and come across as rather sharp. On the other hand, there are times she is just (as she herself notes) loud and direct. I like direct. I don’t want her to try to be someone she isn’t. Blunt is fine; snapping at folks who have unrealistic expectations is understandable, but not so fine.”

      Holy Moly is that just the most beautifully written explanation about how you expect this person to work. I work for a public agency where the union allows write ups for “attitude”. So, so gendered and racial. Everyone knows women, and especially WoC, would be called up for “attitude” the most. I think you can say this to her verbatim. It’s great. Maybe just change Loud to something-else-I-can’t-think-of.

      1. MuseumChick*

        I agree with Sabine. Tell her exactly what you have written here. You can also acknowledge the gendered and racial nature of tone policing and make it clear to her that you see her as someone really going places int he company.

      2. epi*

        I agree. There is an important distinction here that may need to be conveyed even if the complaints about this woman’s demeanor are often gendered and racial (they probably are).

        Also, deciding whether and how to to conform to gendered and racial expectations, in order to get along or get ahead at work, is a very personal decision. It is great that RR and her direct report see that that is part of the tension here, but ultimately their employee needs to decide whether and how she wants to change her demeanor. I would be honest with her that they want to help her develop and advance, and that they think there is a mix of fair and unfair feedback here. That is her trade-off to make.

        Sort of related to that, I wonder if this woman is aware that the department is trying to actively turn around a reputation for poor internal customer service. I once inherited a process like that and did successfully turn it around. It took more than my tone, and I would bet that this employee has other insights into what might be helpful. But I definitely was extra careful of my demeanor around that particular process, whether I found it fair or not (I am a white woman FWIW), just because I knew it needed special handling. Because I knew about that situation, I didn’t feel like it reflected on my normal operating procedure at all.

      3. ChachkisGalore*

        I totally agree – this is a great way to phrase it (almost exactly) to the employee directly! There’s one additional idea/though that I might include, but I’m struggling on the exact wording. I think it might go a long way with the employee to the let them know that you have their back when it comes to the racially motivated or gendered complaints. Basically making it clear that you are not holding those complaints against her or will defend her if they do come up (ie: the times when she’s just being direct or blunt). You are only asking her to work on the stuff that isn’t racially/gender motivated (ie: the times where she is actually snapping at folks or too obviously frustrated).

        Like I said, the wording is stumping me, but I know that would go a long way with me if it came to complaints that had a combo of bias and reality to them.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          You might also tell the employee that you are trying to turn the department’s reputation around and let her know that you’d like her help, and this is how you’d like her to help. Make it clear that those who help with the turn around will be rewarded (but don’t promise her a promotion, of course.)

    5. Gaia*

      This kind of feedback can be gendered and can be racial. It can also be legitimate. It sounds like, in this case, there is some legitimacy to the feedback. I think the way you described it here is really helpful. And it might be helpful to point out that you know this feedback is often given more the POC and women more than white people and men, but that this isn’t the case with you (and that you don’t just pass it along because you received it, but because you observed it as well) and you want to help her take the next step in her career. Give actual examples and ways she could say the same thing in a way that isn’t condescending or sharp.

      The key with this kind of feedback is to make it clear you want to help. Some people will never take this feedback well, but will still improve. Some will never take it well and will never improve. Some will take it fine and never change. Some will take it fine and change. You can’t control which category she falls in, you can only make it clear what has to happen to promote.

      1. Ella*

        I’d avoid saying “this isn’t the case with me” as frankly it probably is the case with OP, at least to the degree that no one is immune from subtle societal biases. I think the better approach would be to say you know there is often a gender and racial bias to these complaints, and that you are proactively working to take that into account and not allow it to hurt her career, but that there are at least a few instances where you have specific, actionable feedback for her.

        And I agree with Sabine the Very Mean that this line is fantastic and could probably be used verbatim “One challenge we are facing is that sometimes she expects people to know/remember processes that they really can’t. Her tone can convey frustration and come across as rather sharp. On the other hand, there are times she is just (as she herself notes) loud and direct. I like direct. I don’t want her to try to be someone she isn’t. Blunt is fine; snapping at folks who have unrealistic expectations is understandable, but not so fine.”

        I think making it clear that you believe her that some of the complaints levied against her are unfair and that you don’t expect her to meet unrealistic expectations will go a long way to helping coach her about the times where there is a legitimate issue.

        1. Gaia*

          I mean, it isn’t the case with the OP in this instance. She has legitimate concerns that match up to this feedback. So pointing that out can be helpful.

          1. Ella*

            OP still needs to be careful about making sure she’s accurately assessing which situations are a legitimate concern and which have bias at play, though. And some situations will likely be a mix of both, where the employee acts in a less than ideal way but the situation gets blown out of proportion due to bias. This stuff is never completely black and white, and I think it wouldn’t help OPs case to act like it is.

            1. JR*

              Or situations where it isn’t ok, but where a white person or man wouldn’t be judged or called out for the same (not ok) behavior. Not to say that OP shouldn’t express concern about those instances, but to be really clear on what exactly is going on. Agreed that the OP clearly has great intentions and is doing a good job of pushing back in the bias, and also that she should take care to continue to examine her own assessment for possible bias.

          2. Gingerblue*

            It’s not an either/or, though; she may be receiving both legitimate criticism and gendered/racially motivated criticism at the same time.

      2. SWOinRecovery*

        I agree with addressing the racial bias component in your feedback. Even if a manager tailors their feedback down to the legitimate areas, an employee might think that they’re only referring to legitimate issues so that she can’t complain about bias this time. By recognizing the issue then explaining what you’re doing to help (ie. defending against illegitimate complaints, bringing in unconscious bias trainers, etc) she’s likely to feel that she’s heard and supported, which is what you want.

    6. mrs_helm*

      In a service/support role, tone is important to the caller’s experience. I’ve been the woman in IT who was told her detailed direct explanations to end users were coming off as “condescending”. This is not a place where you can give leeway to cultural/gender/personal style. The customer’s experience, how they felt about the interaction, is key to this type of role. I had to learn to ACT, yes as in “be an actress” over the phone, in a more friendly/collegial way on these types of calls. It didn’t change who I am. It did change how successful I was in that role. Should I care that the initial complaint may have been rendered? Maybe. But I cared more about progressing in my career.
      I think you can talk to her about what you think may be holding her back, but she has to be the one to decide what to do with that. Does she want to make some changes so she can keep moving up? Does she want to pursue a path where this won’t matter as much (which might mean a career change?) Or she may choose to keep on as she is…and there is nothing you can do about that, nor should you. You can lead a horse to water…

    7. Nita*

      So maybe instead of bringing up her tone, which is kind of vague feedback, talk to her about more constructive ways to deal with people who cannot remember the processes she expects them to? It doesn’t help her to snap at them. It doesn’t help them to be snapped at. Depending on how crucial it is to remember these things, there might be different solutions.

      1. MuseumChick*

        I think this approach. It gives her something more concrete to work on and moves this away from tone policing.

        1. Minocho*

          I have had issues with this, and have taken courses on negotiation and emotional intelligence to help me come up with strategies to interrupt myself when I’m coming from a place that will set up an antagonistic environment unnecessarily.

          Giving me something concrete to do rather than something to avoid allows me to find a way to progress, instead of stew over things.

          One that is general, but very helpful for me from my emotional intelligence class: Assume Positive Intent. This allows me to keep my internal attitude more upbeat, and helps me make sure I’m not coming across as angry or frustrated so much.

      2. DreamingInPurple*

        Snappishness often comes from frustration when you’re not able to move forward with something, so if she has a defined way to handle it when someone doesn’t know a process that she feels they should, that will probide a path forwards and she’ll probably feel less motivated to be snappy in the first place.

      3. sheep jump death match*

        Agreed- maybe she could work on documentation for the processes that her coworkers can’t remember/that make her the most annoyed when people ask her about them over and over? I think it would be good to be able to say on her review, like, “Mary wrote a clear and concise guide to llama grooming for the sales department, which has reduced monthly grooming tickets by 25%. 80% of the remaining tickets are from Joe, who handles the most complicated llamas, and from Jim, who is a known crank.”

    8. Ali G*

      Ooh this is a tough one. First I want to say, that I admire you working through this for your employee. Also, nothing that you mention, to me at least, should stand in the way of a what sounds like a long overdue promotion.
      However, as a senior level employee, she should at least try to temper her frustration when she has to re-explain processes to people. I get that it is frustrating (been there, done that, have the T-shirt), but if she is going to hold a senior level position, it’s just good professional behavior to be able to do that. So that is something I think you can genuinely work with her on.
      The other stuff I think you just need to learn to address the comments as they come in. For example, if you witness a conversation between her and an employee where she was direct and the other employee claims she was “rude”, stand up for her if you disagree and explain why. Because, guess what? If she wasn’t loud and direct, she probably wouldn’t be up for a promotion at all, because as a WOC she’d be passed over by men who get away with everything (I know a big generalization, but we’ve all seen it right?). She’s probably learned that she has to be this way to get noticed and to get sh1t done. As long as she isn’t actively mean or obnoxious to people it’s just who she needs to be to advance her career.

    9. Eeyore*

      To me, it depends on if you want to be kind or be truthful. Being a black woman who is loud and direct will always seem like a recipe for trouble, even when white coworkers are doing the same thing. I am a black woman who has, through various means, been taught not to be loud or direct, because I’d be in the same position as your employee. As it turns out, being quieter and more conciliatory doesn’t help either.

      If she wants practical advice so that she can move up, I would tell her to consider how she speaks to different people. I definitely speak to white men differently than white women, and white people differently than I speak to people of color. You don’t have to say that, but you can tell her to consider how her words are being received by others, and perhaps tailor them to the audience. I have found that when you build a friendly rapport with others, you can get away with being more direct. I personally tend to be more direct with women of my own race, because we all tend to know the struggle, but that also depends on your company’s culture. My first job had black women warning me left and right about how to act, how to dress, what makeup to wear. I went into non-profit work and got less warnings, but more of me figuring it out myself. I play the game because this is work, and controlling my tone for others is also work. I’m sure others will have a different view, but I have found this works well enough for me.

    11. LKW*

      Starting with the employee and acknowledging that the bias is a great start. I’d also ask if the employee is open to recording her interactions? It would have to be done with all parties consenting (and you may want to run it by HR and legal) but it is a great way for the employee to get an unbiased view of her interactions. Sometimes people don’t realize how they’re coming across. And as some have noted, her interactions may be perfectly reasonable and the bias is truly on the others and are unwarranted. This gives you ammunition to reply that you’ve taken note of the feedback and have dismissed it.

      I’m just thinking about how others have used that method as training / coaching to improve presentation and meeting management skills.

      But there could be no expectation of doing that and no punishment for whatever is recorded or for not recording. It would strictly be a coaching activity.

    12. Ender Wiggin*

      A few things spring to mind:
      1 you solicited the feedback. Next round of reviews you might want to consider changing the feedback form or process to make sure you get clearer info like asking for specific examples of what was said or done wrong rather than “she seemed condescending”
      2 do you have the power to promote her without her getting excellent feedback? If so you can inform her that you acknowledge that some of the feedback eg about tone may be biased and you will ignore all that type of feedback in your decision (tone is really subjective anyway). Then actually do ignore all tone-based or other feedback that is likely to be biased in your decision.
      3 if you are required to get good reviews before you can promote someone, then you should advocate very strongly to have the review process be much less subjective than it is now.
      4 regarding the behaviour you have observed that is definitely unacceptable – make it clear to her that she needs to address that.
      5 regarding the possibly biased feedback eg the tone comments you can point out to her that you acknowledge that such feedback can be biased and let her know what you are doing regarding points 1-3 above to address that.
      6 you have a decision to make – are you going to request that she make an effort to change her tone or not. Let her know whether this is something you are asking her to do or not. Personally I don’t think you should ask her to change her tone at all.
      7 regardless of whether you are asking her to change her tone or not I think you could give her some info on ways that sone people manage to make their tone sound nicer. Smiling when answering the phone for example often completely changes a tone. Trying to create a rapport with frequent customers is well worth it in any customer facing role (internal or external). There are lots of customer service tricks that apply to roles like this. It’s up to her whether she wants to try them or not.

      There was a comment above “deciding whether and how to to conform to gendered and racial expectations, in order to get along or get ahead at work, is a very personal decision.” it’s really up to her to make the decision but you can give her tips on how to go about it if she chooses to.

    13. Observer*

      Focus on the stuff that’s clearly problematic. If that doesn’t improve, you have your answer – she’s not being dinged because she’s a black woman, but because she is genuinely difficult. And perhaps behavior that someone else could get away with is being seen more harshly because of these behaviors.

      If she does improve, there are some positive potential side effects to be had. A lot of people who find her annoying or abrasive now, might change their opinion. Certainly, if people are at all reasonable the number of complaints should go down, because she’s going to be stopping some problematic behavior.

      It also allows you to go back an take a more nuanced look at the remaining issues. Is she being blunt or TOO blunt? Is she behaving in ways that no one faults men / white people for or, or do people roll their eyes when other people do the same thing? That’s important, because a behavior may be objectively ok, but if it doesn’t square with the culture that’s a legitimate issue. But if a guy can say something and have people “Oh, he’s ok to deal with. I always know where I stand because he’s so direct” and when she says it you get “Well, she’s right but a bit too abrasive about it.” Well, you have your answer.

      I’m guessing that it’s going to be a bit more complicated than that, but once you get rid of the “noise” introduced by the genuine problems, you will get a chance to judge what is really going on. And you will be in a much stronger position to push back on the gendered and racial stereotyping if that’s what you find.

    14. Fish Microwaver*

      I’m really surprised that no one has suggested the OP listen to Alison’s recent podcast on tone. It has a lot of useful language for exploring the issue with the coworker and strategies to be more aware of tone and other nuances of communication. I recommend it.

    15. Close Bracket*

      “We received numerous comments about this employee’s tone – many describing it as abrasive or condescending. ”

      Did this only come bc you solicited it, or do people complain about her unsolicited? If the latter, with regard to the direct portion, half the solution has to be coaching people to be comfortable with directness. Frame it as the functional vs relationship building divide and leave race and gender out of it, even though they are an integral part, to avoid defensiveness. This is tactical advice bc while it would be better to coach people to acknowledge their own implicit bias and not be defensive about it, that’s a much bigger fish to fry than framing it as communication styles. Pair that will telling people that you are coaching her on being more patient with their lack of familiarity with standards and you might see this feedback turn around, smoothing the way for advancement.

  5. GhostWriter*

    I’m currently job hunting and just found out that one of my references is retiring soon. They wrote me a reference letter on official letterhead for me to use after they retire.

    My problem is that job applications that require references always require three, and with one reference retiring, I’ll only have two references that can be contacted. (I had a second reference from the retiring reference’s organization, but they passed away a few years ago, so I don’t have a “backup” reference.) Is it okay to enter my retiring reference’s old contact info on applications, and if it gets to a point where references might get checked, just explain they retired (and that my 2nd reference from that organization passed away) and provide the reference letter? I can’t think of any better way to handle it.

    1. ZSD*

      Are you sure the retiring person no longer wants phone calls about such things? Can you check with this retiring person to see if they’ll give you a personal phone and/or email to list on applications?

      1. GhostWriter*

        When I checked in with them about continuing to be a reference for me, they said “I will be retiring on x date. I will be glad to be your reference meanwhile. Would it help to send you a reference letter on letterhead that you could use?”

        I took the “meanwhile” to mean that they were only willing to be my reference until they retired, and that I should use the letter thereafter. Am I reading it wrong?

        1. SWOinRecovery*

          Yeah, I think that you’re totally reading that correctly. I would ask coworkers or professors if you can’t find any other supervisors. Don’t be afraid to call a main office to get contact info if you need to.

        2. Bea*

          No. You’re reading right. I’m judging the reference so hard. If my former boss tried this I would take it so personally. My oldest job was sold, my boss retired, she’s still my reference!

          1. GhostWriter*

            I think of being a reference as doing part of your job. Don’t most people just want to be done with their job duties when they retire?

            In my reference’s defense, I was just a part-time intern for 9 months. If I’d worked for them full-time for several years I’d take it more personally.

            1. Bea*

              No. Acting as a reference that’s more than just confirming the person worked for you is human decency. It’s an effort to help someone who helped you professionally at some point. It’s not just a standard job duty.

              Otherwise we’re all screwed staying anywhere for very long because people leave jobs and retire all the time.

              But if you’re young enough that you’re still depending on a person without much emotional tie in to your professional progress it makes more sense.

              My former report and friend uses me as a reference in her job hunts despite me leaving earlier because she can’t trust the terrible company she’s trying to escape. So I’m probably extra sensitive to references being very personal and what you just do for anyone you wish to see succeed.

              I have written references only for “in case they die or get stricken with Dementia (because my most beloved boss did get hit with that awful disease).”

    2. Mariss*

      Just to clarify, has your reference who is retiring indicated that they do not wish to be contacted? I would think it would still be perfectly acceptable to list them as a reference and provide personal contact information (cell phone/email), along with the information that they have retired from the position they held when you worked with them. If they said they do not wish to be contacted, then you would need to find another reference who is willing to be contacted. You might opt to use a coworker rather than a supervisor.

      1. GhostWriter*

        They didn’t directly say they don’t wish to be contacted, but they told me they were retiring and could serve as my reference “meanwhile.” I took that to mean they can serve as a reference until they retire, and then want to be left alone.

        I’m not sure how to ask for their personal information. It seems intrusive, and I wonder if they want to just be done with giving references (they were my supervisor for an internship at a nonprofit, so they’ve probably acts as references for interns over many years). But I’ve been unemployed for a long time so I’m kind of in a bind.

    3. Ree*

      I just ran into this issue!
      I have always worked for small companies, two of the three have been sold/dismantled and two of the three owners have retired(the third I would never give as a reference, if they called on a good day, no problem. A bad day? Scalding words of disdain would fall from his lips)
      I explained that my direct bosses have all retired and gave them a semi-manager, a co-worker and my program mentor from my college and then explained that I didn’t have a lot of reference options even before the retirements, as I’ve always worked for VERY small companies.
      The references I gave them came back great and the company seemed to understand why I was giving them the references I chose.

        1. GhostWriter*

          I’m glad it worked for you and resulted in a job offer. :)

          My retiring reference was from a small non-profit that I did an internship for, and another reference is from another internship at a small non-profit. I didn’t interact with many people beyond my supervisors much, and don’t have contact information for anyone else at those places.

          My third reference is my old supervisor from a large company. I have contact information for three of my coworkers from there, but I haven’t talked to them in a year and would honestly awkward contacting them out of the blue to act as a reference.

          1. zora*

            A year is not a long time in this context. I have had people reach out for references, and I personally have reached out to people for references that I haven’t spoken to for years. That’s the nature of references, you reach out when you are job searching.

            I understand feeling awkward, but take a breath and just send the emails to the two coworkers. The worst that will happen is they will just ignore your message. But they can’t say yes if you don’t ask!!

            Another option is to ask your retiring reference if there is anyone else at that non-profit that would possibly be a good reference, and for their email addresses.

            I know this is hard, I have anxiety about this kind of stuff myself. But you *have* to advocate for yourself sometimes! Think of this as a time to practice that, and it will probably not be as bad as you think. Good luck!

            1. GhostWriter*

              Feels better to know I’m not the only one with anxiety about this stuff. :) And, admittedly, I’m horrible about being an advocate for myself. :(

              What’s a good way to word a text to ask one of the coworkers I haven’t talked to in a year about acting as a reference? Half of the anxiety I feel is in figuring out what to say. I’m not sure how much to explain or how to ask in a way that doesn’t pressure them.

              Is this okay?: “Hi [former coworker]. I hope all is well with you! I’m currently job hunting and am short on job references (one of my former supervisors is retiring this month, and one passed away last year). Would you be willing to be a reference for me if I’m a finalist for job and need a third reference?”

              3. zora*

                YES! If I got this message, I would be so happy to say yes and help you get a good job, because I hope when I need it someone else will be there for me! Go out there and advocate for yourself. YOU CAN DO IT!!

      2. Emily*

        Yeah, I think having a direct manager reference is the gold standard, but in many cases it’s not the only acceptable reference.

        I’ve only worked for 3 places since graduating. The first place I supplied faculty advisors who supervised my research and whose classes I TA’d as references. The second job, I had a manager who had quit my first/then-current job who was able to be a reference for me, and then since I didn’t want to alert my employer to my search I used a coworker and my most recent faculty advisor.

        For my current/third job, my search was again something I was keeping private from my manager, and I had only had one manager the whole time I was there. So I offered up the manager from my first job who had recommended me the last time around, and two slightly senior coworkers from the first job, who I felt were better-qualified to talk about me as an employee than a professor was. It was no problem for the job hunt!

        Fortunately, I’ve seen managers in my department who have been glad to act as references when an employee in our department is looking for growth and new opportunities. Which is really good, since I’ve been here so long and learned and grown so much as a professional in that time that references from my last job can hardly speak to much more than my pleasant disposition. Not sure what I would do if I couldn’t offer up some folks here!

        1. GhostWriter*

          I always thought supervisors were the only acceptable references, so it’s good to hear from someone who got away with using (two!) coworkers. Trying to build up the courage to and get used to the idea of reaching out to a coworker now. :)

          1. Ama*

            I have had two different bosses fired for misconduct, so even if I could find them I wouldn’t really want to use them as a reference, and I have had very good success using coworkers in their place — I try to use coworkers who were slightly senior to me and/or who delegated a lot of work to me so they are as close to managers as possible (tbh some of them probably had a better sense of my work output than the actual boss did), but as long as you are upfront that they are coworkers, not supervisors, I find most places pretty understanding.

            1. GhostWriter*

              My coworkers were peers, so hopefully that’s okay.

              If I already have a supervisor to use as a reference from Company A, is it okay to use a coworker as a reference from Company A too? Or does each reference have to be from a separate organization? (I’m only in contact with coworkers from Company A so I don’t have other options!)

              1. Emily*

                I think as a general rule, you want your reference list to be whoever you can put on there that’s going to make the employer feel like they’ve gotten meaningful (and positive!) information about how you operate in the workplace.

                When I chose coworkers I tried to select those who regularly needed to receive deliverables from me, so that they could speak pretty well to things like my reliability and ability to hit deadlines, the quality of my finished work product, and whether I was pleasant to work with. (As opposed to people I work closely with but don’t pass deliverables to very often, and they are more likely to know what I talk about in meetings but not much about my actual work product.) That’s about 75% of what a manager would speak to, you’re just missing the extra insights a manager would be able to offer that a coworker is less likely to see, such as how good your first drafts are or how many drafts it takes you to get to a finished product, how well you handle negative feedback from a manager, how much initiative you take beyond what’s strictly assigned to you.

              2. Smarty Boots*

                Or a co-worker who has moved on to a higher title. So I’ve used people who were peers when we worked together, and now have a higher title at another employer.

    4. Earthwalker*

      I’ve been retired two years and still respond to reference calls for people I promised I’d be a reference. I’ll do it as long as hiring managers still call me because they think my contact is recent enough to be relevant. Why don’t you ask your reference if they’re still willing? It might be no problem at all.

  6. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Current job is starting to consider bringing me on full time, possibly before the end of the year.
    Had an interview for a potential position that would be amazing, but it might take a little while for decisions to be made (there’s a lot going on inside the company–hence why they need support.)
    If current job comes through before potential position makes a decision, it will definitely be weird if I say I need time to think about it. But honestly I WOULD prefer potential position. How badly would it burn bridges to take the current job offer, and then jump ship if the potential position makes me an offer as good (or possibly better)?

    1. The Tin Man*

      If you’ve already been there for a bit and you would be doing the same work but as FT instead of PT I say take the offer to make you full time. If the potential position makes an offer you can decide then if it is right for you.

      I don’t think you’d burn the bridge too bad if you have been there for a while as PT – if you leave a couple of months after they make you FT it wouldn’t leave them in a bind as much as if they did all the onboarding, training, etc for a brand new hire just for that person to jump ship.

    2. MikeN*

      You wouldn’t just be burning the bridge; you’d be blowing it up. You’d be blackballed at the company you leave; your reputation would be damaged with anyone at that company who knew about it (and those people could get jobs elsewhere, carrying that damage with them; as well, depending on how tightly-knit your profession/geographic area is, this could get back to your new company, and affect how you’re perceived there.

      It’s also a crummy thing to do to the people at the original hiring company, who invested time and energy in bringing you on board and training you. So you’d be buying yourself some bad karma.

      I think you have to either take and keep the job with the current company, or roll the dice with the other one.

      1. The Tin Man*

        Wow, I find it interesting you disagree so strongly with me. Maybe because I looked at it as though ICA had been at the current company for a while so this would just be an uptick in hours. If I were managing someone who I brought from part-time to full-time and they left after a couple months I’d be a little peeved but would not even remotely consider the bridge burnt. If ICA had just been there like a month or two and is still getting up to speed it’d be a bigger issue for me.

        Could be we’re just different people who react differently to the same thing though!

        1. pancakes*

          Fwiw, I’ve done contract attorney & staff attorney work for several years and agree entirely with the Tin Man here. It’s a transitory business and nearly everyone in it knows that. Bridges can be burned by leaving a project before it’s done or, of course, by doing sloppy work, but generally not by trying to get oneself the best job possible. The one time I thought maybe I’d burned a bridge, I was hired for a staff attorney job by a firm that had just taken on a new lateral partner—I worked on the case at one firm on a contract basis, the partner made his move and took the case with him, and the new firm hired some of us as staff attorneys directly. Not long after, I learned the agency I’d worked for on a contract basis was suing the new firm in an effort to collect fees on me/us. A couple years later the new firm laid us all off when the litigation we’d been hired for finished, and I wasn’t sure I should even consider approaching the agency again. I did, and it was fine—they got me more work right away.

          Another story that might be relevant to Indefinite’s dilemma: There was one firm I worked at on a contract basis for what turned out to be nearly 4 years. Towards the end of that period they started hiring some staff attorneys, first from another case no one in my group had worked on. We were, naturally, encouraged to hang in there and maybe be considered for staff attorney gigs too—the firm wasn’t sure how many more positions would be created, but there would be some. Some dwindled to two, then one, then none. It was dreadful. At one point the only remaining contract attorneys on my case were me & one guy, and we were told it was looking like there’d be one staff attorney position and one of us would get it. He & I were on friendly terms and pretty evenly matched in terms of qualifications, so that was awkward. Then the one potential position evaporated when a new partner neither of us had worked with made an offer to another contract attorney without checking with anyone on the hiring committee. It was hugely frustrating at the time but probably we both dodged a bullet.

        2. Random Internet Lawyer*

          Depending on the firm and kind of work, transitioning someone from a contract position to a permanent full-time position can represent a pretty big investment. I think firms generally are losing money on associates for the first few years, so when you bring someone on, there’s an expectation that they’ll stick around at least long enough for the firm to “break even,” so to speak. FWIW, I don’t think this matters as much in super big firms which project for some amount of new associate turnover (& can spend the $), but only Indefinite Contract Atty knows what their organization is like.

    3. Cruciatus*

      It’s unclear to me if both potential jobs are at the same employer or not. If they are separate employers you would totally be burning the bridge–I agree with Mike. If both are at the same employer it’s still pretty bad. You can ask to take a few days to think about it no matter what, but you have to pick one or the other. You don’t start the other and just jump back to the original position if it comes up.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      I’m with Tin Man on this one. I saw Indefinite as working with Company A part time currently, perhaps switching to full time. To me, in that scenario it is fine to take a new job even after taking on more hours at Company A.

  7. Anna Bananarama*

    My coworker and I were talking a few weeks ago. She said that her daughter had itchy underarms and found that certain deodorants may cause this. It was helpful info because I was going through the same thing.

    Well, today she was talking to a young guy who works in another section and for whatever reason, she starts talking about deodorant. Then she brings up how both her daughter and myself have itchy underarms!!

    I thought I would die. I don’t know if she thought nothing of it, but it was embarrassing. I don’t know the guy that well, but I don’t want him knowing that! I sort of laughed it off and then went to another area, but I just didn’t expect coworker to talk about it. Who knows who else she told?

    I guess it’s a lesson learned to not tell her stuff. Has anyone had a coworker like this? How did you handle it?

      3. sit down*

        I realize you’re crabby because you’ve had several comments removed this week, but no need to take it on others.

      4. wow*

        you are extremely unpleasant! almost every time you comment is just downright rude and uncalled for!

    2. Drop Bear*

      Different people have different views on what is ‘taboo’ I think – I’ve had coworkers who will happily discuss periods/poop etc with anyone and others who are mortified if anyone knows they’ve been to the bathroom; most have sat somewhere between these two on a continuum of TMI. You’ve found out that your coworker’s position on the continuum is probably different from yours – so, as you said, don’t tell her stuff you don’t want repeated.
      I’m not usually a sharer at work anyway, but when it’s happened to me I’ve just shrugged, reminded myself that the recipient of the information has probably already forgotten it (it’s never particularly interesting information), and made a mental note that the ‘story teller’ isn’t a good confidante for the future.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but I tend to believe that people show us what they will do. If a person will start up a conversation about itchy underarms or other personal issue with me then they will probably start that conversation with others. I decided that it was ME who labeled the conversation as private or confidential but they did not. In other words I had to change what I was doing or thinking.

      I think if you wanted to go back in on this topic, you could say to her, “When you want to discuss itchy underarms with people, please do not include MY itchy underarms in the discussion.”

      A cool thing a friend of mine does is she refers to everyone as her friend, no names involved. She has to keep information confidential so the people she serves become “friends” and their stories get mixed in with her private life real friends so the listener is no clue who she is talking about.
      You could suggest that she do a similar thing. So this could look like, “Both my daughter and my friend [meaning you] have this problem with itchy underarms. I was discussing this with my friend the other day and [blah, blah, blah].” This strips away identifying information.

      1. Reba*

        I’d be even more clear or draw a bigger boundary: “Please don’t discuss my body or things I tell you about my body or personal stuff with others! I’m sure you didn’t think anything of it/meant it harmlessly but I would really appreciate if you just don’t bring me into discussions with others like this.” Because I could see someone thinking “Ah, LW has a weird thing about underarms” and then having no qualms about discussing your lingering shoe odor tips or issues with static cling on bras or IDK.

        You have learned that things you think of as “obviously this is in confidence or personal,” this other person doesn’t see it that way, and that’s good information for you in future interactions.

        I like NSNR’s friend’s (“friend” ha) technique, but I think for some people it would still feel kind of invasive, even if anonymized.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        I really like your reframing of your own perception of things and the friend suggestion. Great idea to use “friend” in place of actual names.

    4. Audiophile*

      Oof, that’s tough.

      I know a few people who do this, and I’ve been guilty myself of doing this. I’m sure it wasn’t intentional on your coworker’s part, they just relayed the story of their child and because you had shared your similar experience, it got lumped in there.

    5. mrs_helm*

      A good rule of thumb is if they tell you other people’s private/borderline embarrassing stuff, they will repeat yours. But also, different people have different measurements of “embarrassing”. (See also: Cultural norms and burping.) So, it can be good to wait a while and get to know someone before sharing.
      In this case, it is possible she didn’t think there was anything embarrassing about it.

      1. Smarty Boots*

        Depends, although safest to assume so. I have colleagues where we get all TMI, but none of us are repeating any of it to anyone else. But we know we can trust each other.

    6. Addie Bundren*

      Yeah, I had a similar situation recently–I joked, in a social setting with coworkers, about an embarrassing thing I’d done long ago. Nothing immoral or unusual; we were all trading stories about things our younger, stupider selves did. Did NOT expect for one of those people, a week later, to make their own pointed joke about my action in the workplace. Too late to undo it, but yeah, I don’t consider that person someone I can have a normal social conversation with now. And honestly, I wouldn’t have changed my initial decision to tell the story in the first place! It was just bad luck that this person turns out to have rude judgment. This seems to be bad luck too.

    7. GhostWriter*

      I compulsively pick at my lips when stressed out. Once in a while at a previous job, one corner of my lips was red/irritated/raw looking from being picked. One coworker saw my lips and loudly asked me ask me how my “cold sore” was doing, and I explained that I pick at my lips when stressed out. She sympathized, and then every time the corner of my lips was irritated in the future she’d ask me loudly about my “cold sore” and I’d have to explain again. I was embarrassed to have someone speaking loudly about a cold sore I didn’t have, and to have to keep explaining that I pick my lips (I hate that I do it but have never been able to stop).

      I think it’s weird that a coworker would be telling other people about your itchy underarms–it’s not her info to share and sharing it is unnecessary. I’d find it embarrassing too.

      1. Paige*

        I do the same thing, but if someone ever comments, instead of explaining that I pick at my lips, I just say they’re chapped (that’s actually how I started picking at them). It’s a less involved explanation that’s totally normal.

        1. GhostWriter*

          That’s a good idea! There’s a lot of reasons someone might have chapped lips (being outdoors, being sick, running out of chapstick, having a bad reaction to a chapstick, etc.) so I’d feel less embarrassed about saying that.

      4. Bea*

        She’s a rude jackhole. Don’t engage with this crude woman, she doesn’t care and won’t learn.

        Even if it is a cold sore, do you share beverages or kiss your coworkers on the mouth?? It’s inappropriate on every level to draw attention to a sore.

        She reminds me of evil wretched humans who ask about my partner’s skin disorder. Just no.

        1. froodle*

          My brother gets quite bad eczema when he’s overheated, stressed out, or eats that fake “chocolate flavoured” stuff you get in cereals or on cheap cake bars. It shows up in the crook of his arm and as it spreads outwards it looks like little spotty burn scars. He had a very rude person loudly and publicly demand to know what on earth was up with his “gross” arms while he was in the office. He was quiet for a full fifteen seconds and then said they were track marks and sniffled. Inappropriate awful people deserve all the awkward thrown back at them.

    8. kittymommy*

      I pretty much live by the idea anything I tell one co-worker will be known by others within a few hours; on the other hand something like this wouldn’t even register with me as an issue. The co-worker probably din’t mean anything negative or insulting by it, they just have a different level of sharing than you, but you don’t feel it’s appropriate and that’s perfectly valid. I would just take it as a lesson learned and not talk with her about personal issues anymore.

    9. AnotherJill*

      I always take things like this as a signal not to share personal information that you might think is embarrassing to any degree. I wouldn’t go back and say anything, because the chances are high that all that would accomplish is future awkwardness. She would definitely be on the pleasantries-only list going forward.

    10. Paige*

      I figure that talking to coworkers is a bit like posting photos on the internet–once the info is out there, you’re never going to have control over who shares it again, whether it’s something innocuous or not.

  8. Moving from Nonprofit to Foundation?*

    I am in the midst of an interview process for a role that I’m excited about. But I’m not sure that I would take it if it were offered to me. Help me think this through?

    I’m a mid-career nonprofit program manager, considering making the move to working in philanthropy. The job that I’m interviewing for is The Job for my field, in my region (or rather, it’s one of several jobs on The Team at The Foundation) – so if I don’t want this job, maybe I don’t want to make the move at all?

    My current job has its ups and downs. I’m at a large, well-funded and well-respected nonprofit… but my division and team have been pretty dysfunctional. It’s bureaucratic and slow and, generally, not really high-performing. But: things are changing, right now. A fabulous VP started at the beginning of the year; we recently had a big reorg which moved me under a new manager that I’m really excited about working with and learning from. I have a lot of credibility and capital here; I get a lot of opportunities to lead things and try things that I may not get elsewhere… but I’ve also been on the brink of leaving several times, out of frustration with my manager and pay inequity and a host of other things.

    My job has other structural things going for it. The culture here is slow, which can be frustrating, but also means that my job is rarely stressful. I never work over 40 hours a week. I have a LOT of PTO and a lot of flexibility in how to use it (two of my colleagues take a full month off every summer, for example). I’ve been trying to get pregnant for 18 months and who knows whether that will ever happen, but my current organization would be a great place to have children – I could easily plan to take six months off after having a child (mostly unpaid, but that’s still a relatively rare opportunity); I have a super flexible schedule; etc.

    I’m also not totally sure that I want to leave the nonprofit side for the foundation side. I’m very interested in the new questions and challenges and opportunities that would create but… what if I don’t enjoy it? What if I miss managing programs? My field is small; there are only a few jobs in my region that I can imagine wanting, so it could be hard to shift back if I decided I didn’t want to stay on the foundation side.

    Any thoughts?

    1. BH90210 Fan*

      I’ve always wanted to work in a Foundation because it’s from ‘the other side’ and you can see how non-profits work from a different perspective. After 20 years of having done everything in non-profit, it would be a nice new challenge for me. I encourage you to stretch your wings and fly!

      You do manage ‘programs’ in foundations, depending on the type of foundation (community or private) but look at it this way – you’re helping individuals facilitate their dreams of philanthropy. You’re helping a business (big or small) realize their ability to invest in their community. Foundations are a fabulous continuation of non-profit service.

      Everyone wonders – will I like it. The question is – what will you do to like it?

      1. JR*

        Agreed that you learn a tremendous amount about nonprofits when you’re in a funding role. Of course, you won’t be immersed in a single (operating) nonprofit like you are now (though the foundation itself is of course a nonprofit), but there is a lot of value to the pattern recognition you get from getting a thorough and often intimate snapshot of so very many nonprofits. It’s really interesting to see how different organizations structure themselves and their work, and how that plays out.

    2. Llellayena*

      You list a lot of pros and cons about your current job but how does that compare with the possible new job? Can you ask questions during the interview process that will tell you how flexible the schedule is, how they handle longer absences for health/pregnancy/family/elder care, how busy the role is and how overtime is handled? I don’t think you can look at the new job as only “get out of the current job”, the new job will have it’s own ups and downs that need to be weighed. In addition, how often does an opening at The Foundation occur? If you pass on this opening to see how your current company improves, will another opportunity be available if you decide it’s not improving enough for you to want to stay? I know I’m asking a lot of questions, but it’s a decision that only you can make and the best I can say is you can never have too much information to help with that. Good luck.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        Keep in mind that Foundations, especially ones with living founders, tend to be highly political. Depending on your field, you may be making grants that are multi-year, and where results take years to see (if they are even attributable). So how does a grantmakers “success” get measured? It’s often all about perception… so, enter politics. Be clear about what you’re looking for and what kind of environment you thrive in.

      2. mrs_helm*

        I think a lot of this comes down to *personal priorities*. Especially when you are thinking about having children, out it’s important to know what your priorities are – lifestyle, career, family time, work/life balance. Don’t focus on “what is the best career move” until you decide what your priorities are, because that might/might not be your highest priority. Success = “I found the right balance for me”

      3. Moving from Nonprofit to Foundation?*

        The potential new job is terrific. I know the foundation well and am confident that it would be, in general, a great place to work. I’m just not sure if I should give up the good stuff that I have now.

    3. Ella*

      Coming from the nonprofit fundraising world, working at a foundation seems like The Dream to me. Finally being the one doling out money instead of the one begging for it! What a concept!

      Of course, that’s probably not super helpful to you right now :) I think this line is key for me: “I get a lot of opportunities to lead things and try things that I may not get elsewhere… but I’ve also been on the brink of leaving several times, out of frustration with my manager and pay inequity and a host of other things.”

      Does that mean in the past you’ve nearly left, but with the recent reorganization things are now much better? Or are you still dealing with a frustrating manager/pay inequity/etc. to this day? If the latter, that seems like a bit push to take the new job if it’s offered. Organizations can change their culture, and maybe in a year or two yours will be fully transformed, but it’s by no means a given. In fact, changing a dysfunctional culture and then sticking with it is probably one of the hardest things an organization can do.

      1. Moving from Nonprofit to Foundation?*

        In the past I’ve come close to leaving in frustration. Like, as recently as a couple of weeks ago. But I’m really excited about the changes that are happening, and I can feel a (potential) shift in my own working starting — away from being constantly focused on immediate tactics to having the opportunity to think through the bigger picture questions that need addressing. If that happens, I’d love to be a part of it. But I don’t trust it.

        1. Catwoman*

          It sounds like talking to your manager about what they think the next year or two is going to look like for you might help. Depending on how close you are, you can be candid about some of your past frustrations and see how the new manager reacts. You can also do this in the context of being excited about new opportunities after the re-org and the shifts you’ve already seen in your work if you don’t want them to know you’re interviewing elsewhere.

          For stuff like this, there is often not a “wrong” or “right” answer, which is so hard! It may also help you to think about where you might be in 5 years if you stay and if you go. Which one of those thought experiments is closer to your long-term goals and priorities?

          It may help you to also keep in mind that right now you don’t actually have a decision to make. You may not get an offer from the interview. You may get an offer and your current job may make a counter offer that really changes the playing field.

        2. Ella*

          I do think that’s a point in favor of branching out and exploring other opportunities. Your current job might reform itself and become amazing, but the new job might also be amazing. At that point you’d be leaving an unsure thing for an unsure thing, rather than a sure thing for an unsure thing.

        3. Smarty Boots*

          Is the pay inequity going to be addressed for sure at your current job? What’s the pay bump if you get the foundation job?

          Pay inequity, maybe even more than low pay (and especially when combined with low pay), is incredibly demoralizing. You don’t say what’s behind it, but the cause can make it feel even worse. If that’s not an issue at the foundation, it could make a real difference.

    4. Anon today*

      Take the chance to grow. You’re well aware of the headaches of your current organization, and it’s nearly driven you to leave. That’s a sign.

      If you think the environment will be comparable in terms of flexibility, and you think the position is exciting, as you’ve said, take the chance. It’s amazing what happens when you get out of an environment that’s messed with your head for too long.

    5. JR*

      I love working in philanthropy (though I’ve worked primarily in corporate philanthropy, so a little different). I like the focus on ideas, learning, and best practices, and I think the national philanthropic community has a terrific focus on innovation and impact (thoug of course that’s not true at every foundation). I do think you need to be okay with the fact that your beneficiaries are the nonprofit partners, not the individuals they serve. Of course, the individuals served are ultimately everyone’s top priority, but depending on the nature of the work, you can feel very far from them. So will you feel satisfied by the work of helping your nonprofit partners to grow and excel? Also, what’s the culture of this foundation around it’s grantees? There are, as I’m sure you know, weird power dynamics on philanthropy. Does this foundation see the nonprofits as partners that it is serving, or as contractors who should be grateful to receive their money? How does the foundation think about risk (e.g., I believe philanthropy is society’s risk capital and that part of the way foundations create impact is by taking thoughtful risks, and then analyzing and sharing the results with the field), and is that compatible with how you think about risk? What is the board like? The donors, if they (or their descendants) are living?

      Beyond that, I agree that you say a lot about your current job but not much about the foundation. I think you should give real thought to the core activities of the role, the culture and people you’d be working with, and the policies that most impact you (maternity leave, etc.) and go from there. But if you’re just worried about what you would do if it isn’t as good, you should go for it.

  9. Carnaxide*

    Really struggling to hang in at toxic job as I look for work elsewhere…

    There are you folks out there who did this and are SOOO much better off, right? Put the bad place behind you and are better for it now? Just want to be sure… it’s tough here and other I talk to, as much as we support each other, are as angry and frustrated as I am. I’m doing my best to make the best use of my time (at work, of the benefits, etc.) but I’m having a hard time keeping my cool when being treated so disrespectfully…

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Sapphire*

      I don’t know that I’ve put the toxic company behind me, but I have moved on into a new position where the work and culture are much better fits for me (it did come after a five-month stint of unemployment; I wish I’d started job searching sooner). I honestly still have some reactions to what I recognize as trauma from the old company, but it is possible to get to a better place.

      Hang in there!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Yes! It took a little over a year, but I DID escape and I am MUCH better off.

      On a personal level I still have some leftover trauma from it all, but while I was there I was constantly in and out of doctor’s offices and hospitals with how sick I was making myself, and now I’m only in doctor’s offices for check ups.

    3. Kowalski! Options!*

      I did, although I should add that it also involved a geographical cure (I left admin work and went into teaching English in Europe). The one thing that got me through my sucky jobs was knowing a) it wouldn’t last forever, and that something better would come along; and b) as someone else pointed out last week (I think it was), forty hours of suck helps subsidize 148 hours of doing whatever I wanted to do. Including finding greener pastures.

    4. Quill*

      I stuck it out at the lab from hell until they fired me. (I should have left six months or more before that.)

      Over a year later I’m holding down the fort on an entire subsection of my team with my supervisor gone for a more senior role. And I’m not afraid of my current boss!

    5. Schoodle HR*

      I’m a survivor of a toxic workplace. I ended up severely depressed on antidepressants that then increased suicidal thoughts to a very dark point. So when I say I survived a toxic workplace, I mean it. The constant harassment and setups and yelling…

      I kept getting to final interviews but never the job. I joked they could smell the crazy. Lo and behold, randomly did get a job after first interview, and out of all the jobs, this was the best fit for me.

      I AM SO HAPPY! I read stories like this at the time and they didn’t make me feel better because I was still stuck. But I went from complete despair to a job offer in hand I didn’t know about within 2 days. It really can happen any day!

      That said, don’t stay at a toxic place to the point it compromises your health. Looking back, I should have left, period.

      1. Windchime*

        I should have left way sooner than I did. I had similar emotional and mental problems; for a month, I had to have someone keep my medications at her house and she would dole them out to me because it was too dangerous for me to have them in my own home (for fear of self-harm). I took an FMLA leave, and when it was time to go back, I cried in the parking lot. I should have just refused to go back. I feel so fortunate to have found my current team; my boss is nurturing and supportive, yet she is firm and fair also. I went from the worst possible situation to one that’s nearly ideal.

        1. Ron McDon*

          I too stayed in a toxic job with a bullying boss way longer than I should have.

          It took me having a nervous breakdown and going on anti depressants to realise I needed to get out – now.

          I quit with no job lined up (and in the UK, so I had to work 4 weeks notice!) but the very day that I handed in my notice I stood a little taller, slept a little better, felt a little happier.

          I have carried the baggage from that toxic job with me to each subsequent job, it’s not something I’ve been able to leave in the past completely, but the pall it casts does fade over time.

          I put off leaving because I listened to people who said ‘the next job might be worse’, ‘better the devil you know’ etc. You know the reality of how bad it is, only you can make the decision about whether you should leave. Good luck.

    6. Minerva McGonagall*

      Been there, done that. I stayed at Old Job two years before I was able to get New Job. I’m still adjusting to the new work culture (people are nice to each other regardless of level? What???) and that did take a bit of time. Honestly, still not fully behind me, but I’m trying really hard to keep an open mind about the new people I meet and try not to be negative about Old Job here.

      When I was still at Old Job, I was constantly disrespected because of my gender and education level (I work in higher ed and have a master’s…still not good enough for most), and my extremely supportive Boss retired about three months before I eventually left. I was so depressed before he left and after…that three month period was probably the worst toxicity wise. My new boss was a nasty micromanager who felt that anyone below her was meant to serve her with a golden platter. My health suffered to the point that I had constant heartburn and indigestion, in addition to the depression and anxiety.

      I dealt with it by journaling and found that writing my feelings down helped me to let it go. I also made sure to fully use my lunch hour to get OUT of the office and away from the negativity. Whether that was going for a walk on campus or in town, or driving around, it helped break up the day and made it a bit easier. I tried to still meet up with the few people who escaped our office and those still around who felt the same way I did-to feel I wasn’t alone, to catch up, to see there was a possibility of escape… I also used my sick and vacation days (for mental health, for cheap nearby days out, for interviews…). I exercised to burn off the anger. I used as many of my benefits as I could to justify still being there.

      Finally, FINALLY, I landed new job after nearly a full year and a half of active searching. AAM really helped me in prepping for interviews and applying, as well as knowing there are others out there in the same boat! I hope you get out soon!

    7. Anonygrouse*

      Yes, I got out of a toxic job after 5 years and I am MUCH better off. As others said, there was some residual trauma I had to process/behaviors I had to unlearn, but things are miles better now. Also, it’s great that you have confidants at you current job (that certainly made my old job survivable), but I would make sure that those relationships aren’t making you *more* emotionally invested in your workplace. I would get so upset on behalf of my coworkers even when I was able to fly under the radar, and when I did leave I had to set good boundaries to keep from getting sucked back in (and not feel survivor’s guilt).

      Hang in there and take care of yourself! The right opportunity will come along and you’ll be out of there!

    8. Asenath*

      In retrospect, I held on at Awful Job much too long – largely because of sheer terror at the prospect of being unemployed, I think. As a result, I went through a rough transition at the end, when everything fell apart and I had to leave. But things got so much better! I eventually worked my way into a full-time job working at something completely different, which I actually like and think I am good at. Now, I never think about the misery of that old job unless in a conversation about bad jobs, and even then, the memories of the anxiety and misery are no longer painful. There was a time I thought that I would never get over that experience, but now I’m here to say it is possible to do so!

    9. LKW*

      Yes, it does get better after leaving. While you’re there, have you considered temporarily taking medication to help manage your stress levels? It’s not a go to solution to be sure, but it could help. Worthwhile looking into.

    10. Cheryl Blossom*

      Ugh, I hear you. Toxic jobs can absolutely mess up your way of thinking and your quality of life. I don’t have any advice, but I do have solidarity.

      At my old job, my bosses would tell me to do X, only to turn around and say “Why are you doing X??? You’re supposed to be doing Y!!!” Or complain that I didn’t know how to do things I’d never done before, or threaten to fire me over email one day only to forget they’d ever said it. And my coworkers routinely talked sh!t about me– which I learned when two (!) of them accidentally sent me messages over IM that were meant for other people.

      I couldn’t sleep at night without panic attacks, I routinely cried in the office, and my work started slipping because I was so afraid of messing things up and getting yelled at. I finally called up a temp agency that I’d worked with before during lunch one day, because I couldn’t take it anymore. I was fully intending to work out my 2 weeks’ notice, but the weekend went by and I cried everytime I thought about going back to work, so I did something I’m not super proud of: I emailed my bosses (BCCing a trusted coworker) and told them I would not be coming back to work and listed all the reasons (many besides the one above) that I was quitting. (My trusted coworker was also a supervisor for much of the time I was at that job, and if I need him to, he’d serve as a reference.)

      My temp agency landed me with a shiny new job, doing work that I’d never done before. I’m still afraid of messing things up and getting fired, but that’s slowly going away– my new coworkers keep telling me that I’m picking up new (industry specific) things extremely fast, and I’ve gotten praised for my organizational and communication skills.

      So, uh, don’t do what I did. But even if you do, it’ll be okay. There are better workplaces out there. Nowhere is perfect, but there’s a large gulf between “imperfect” and “toxic”.

    11. Oy with the poodles already*

      I am so much better off – you can do it! Toxic job dysfunction can be used at future regular-levels-of-dysfunction jobs! I can put up with almost anything that drives some co-workers nuts. Boss talks too loud? Well, at least she isn’t threatening your pay or calling you names. Co-worker annoying you? Well, at least you are allowed to talk to your coworkers (really!). Procedure is too long/not great? Well, at least it’s the same procedure every day and doesn’t change based on mood. Got into a somewhat heated discussion about changing something? Well, at least you were allowed to have it and didn’t get belittled, threatened, or called names and are working with passionate people who fight for what they want.

      Take all of the lessons with you and hope to get over the toxic job PTSD in a relatively short amount of time. I almost cried when my boss said she trusted me and I didn’t have to show her a report that we just discussed before sending it out. It took me about a year to get out of almost all of the issues I developed at old job.

    12. Anon nonprofit worker*

      I had a really horrible boss for almost two years, I kept most of it to myself because I was new at the company and he seemed so integral to the work that I felt the org would have chosen him over me if I spoke up about how he treated me (very controlling and condescending, demeaning, told me he regretted hiring me when he was angry once). And he eventually gave his notice, but it was a long notice period so I had to keep reporting to him during it.

      That time was definitely awkward, but since there was a light at the end of the tunnel I was able to get through it. Things have been so much better since he is no longer my boss, and it isn’t part of my life anymore. Now it’s more of a dinner party story.

      You’ll get through it!

    13. Bea*

      I’ve been there. I’ll be free a full year soon. I’m in that stage where I think “last year at this time I was so miserable…” and am in awe of my easy life. I am shaken in a good way every time my boss continues to confirm he’s a good boss and even better, he’s a good person!

      You will get out of that hellhole. Once you get an offer, you’ll detach and be free. It’s hard waiting but you’re not alone.

    14. Windchime*

      Yes, I am WAY better off. Moving was hard; I’d worked with some of these people for 16 years. But the management on my team was toxic and there was no intervention from upper management, so I made the painful decision to leave.

      I have a longer commute and make less money now, although I have a kick-ass retirement plan, awesome health insurance, more paid holidays and most importantly, manager who isn’t cruel or sociopathic. I’m much, much happier.

    15. Minocho*

      I had a toxic job – I was a new professional, desperate for work, and worked in this doomed job in this doomed position as a perma-temp. No benefits, no PTO, low pay, seven (yes, SEVEN!) different managers, one of whom was a terrible man that openly stated all these women in the office would be better off staying at home and raising children.

      It wore me down – and so slowly, I really didn’t notice how bad it was. And it was BAD. I was in a terrible place, had no self esteem left, and felt completely hopeless. In fact, you are much stronger than I was (GO you!!!!) because I was too beaten down to even consider trying to find something else.

      Then they informed me they were letting me go in two weeks. i was panicked and desperate, and immediately started looking for work. A week later they said they hadn’t realized how much I did, and would I be willing to stay another two weeks until they found my replacement? I agreed, just to keep the income coming until I found something.

      Well, I did find something after about 6 weeks. I gave them the rest of the work week as notice and left. it was shocking, as I slowly recovered, how much it had changed me. But I began to recover myself, and made a promise that the next time I realized the stress of a job was leading to changes in my personality, I would immediately begin job searching.

      I’ve gotten out of two bad positions, and was well into getting out of my third when I was let go, so I did learn a great lesson.

      Keep going – you’re already much better about doing what you need to do than I was! You will find something, it will be awesome, and you will remember how amazingly awesome you are again!!!

  10. Formerly Arlington*

    I just joined a very small agency (after several decades only working at large companies/brands) and one of my new direct reports is getting married next month. The owners of this company are non-married partners. They are wonderful, generous, frequently wine and dine the rest of us, are going all out for another co-worker whose wife is expecting…but because they don’t “believe in marriage,” they do not do anything for people who are engaged as a rule. I feel weird not having any sort of celebration for my employee, having always celebrated engagements and weddings at previous jobs! Plus, she is completely obsessed with her wedding and it feels almost thoughtless to not acknowledge it. Can you think of any way I could celebrate her wedding without pissing off my new bosses? I asked one of them about a small shower and she said, “We don’t do that here.” :-(

    2. Digital Janitor*

      You could probably have a team happy hour before the event. Don’t put pressure on it, or make it explicitly about the wedding, and you should be fine.

    3. Reba*

      Send her a card or gift from the office or you, personally, or a group of coworkers. You do not need to have an official company thing to supportively acknowledge her life event! You already are! It sounds like you are already a listening ear for a lot of wedding related chat? That’s pretty good IMO! It’s not like your company is ignoring her event or forbidding discussion of it.

      (FWIW I would NOT want my company to hold a shower or party for me for a personal life thing — I know that it’s very normal, but it’s not obligatory and it’s not the best way to show support for everyone.)

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        Thanks, that’s good to know! I think I’ll plan something with the two of us an another coworker who she is close with. :-)

    4. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Give her a gift card or a gift off of her registry, just make sure it’s from you and not your company. I’m sure she would really appreciate it!

    5. Lumen*

      This makes me want to work for your bosses, who would never dream of dragging me in to celebrating someone’s engagement/marriage when I really, really don’t care.

      However, you care! And that’s great. So give your coworker a card or take them to lunch or give them a small gift if you want. There’s no reason you can’t express your congratulations just because your bosses choose not to do so As A Workplace.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        They drag us into baby showers, though. I guess it’s their company, they can choose which major life events are worthy of a company-wide celebration.

        2. neverjaunty*

          They can, but they’re kind of obnoxious about it. “The office doesn’t have official milestone celebrations” is one thing. But really, the bosses like babies but not weddings so everyone has to show up for the baby shower? What twerps.

    6. designbot*

      I promise you, a workplace can function just fine without wedding showers. Just wish her well, support her by covering what you can while she’s away, and that’s really the best gift you can give her.

    7. Ender Wiggin*

      I’ve never heard of anything other than a card for an employees wedding – that’s kind of strange to me to think of having a bridal shower at work. Lots of people give little gifts for babies but I would never think of giving someone a present or bringing them out for a drink for a wedding I wasn’t invited to.

      Since celebrating weddings isn’t a universal norm, and expecially since your bosses seem to be very definitely opposed to celebration of weddings in the workplace, I think you should just leave it.

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        People at Exjob would do that, but it wasn’t a company thing. It was usually done by someone’s workplace friends. They’d have it at work but spend their own money on it. (And share leftover sheet cake, yay.)

    8. Someone Else*

      I know this isn’t what you’re asking, but just wanted to give you another data point: I have never worked anywhere where “celebrating” this at work would be a thing, having nothing to do with whether the owners do or do not believe in marriage. I don’t know whether it’s my sample size that’s out of the norm, or yours, and acknowledge it could go either way (and imagine you’ll have a sense once the comments are through), but wanted to throw that out there. The employee may well be obsessed with her engagement and talking about it plenty, but I’d argue that doesn’t meant she expects something from coworkers. If she does expect it, that doesn’t necessarily make her in the right, especially if she’s worked there long enough to know that this hasn’t been done for anyone else either. If you want to acknowledge it yourself you could get her a card or something, but I don’t really see the need for you to try to circumvent your bosses on this, and I’m concerned it may go south if you try to.

    9. Nines*

      I recently had a somewhat similar situation (an assistant getting married and no sign of anything being done by the company). I kept going back and forth about rallying the troops to do something (they weren’t categorically against it, just not super aware of it), organizing something myself… I ended up just bringing in my own card with a gift card inside and giving it to her on her last day before the wedding and was very pleased with how it all went. I think it was probably the best of the options and she seemed to appreciate it a lot.

  11. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

    I’m going a bit more anon for this. I’ve been out of work two months and while I have enough savings to get me through the next few months reality is hitting home and I’m starting to realize I may just need to take what I can get. Here’s my conundrum: I know the roles I want and that will pay what I need will be opening up in March or April (they consistently do, in addition to other sporadic hiring throughout the year). But I cannot wait until then to be working again. So, I’m thinking of taking another job in the meantime, one that pays more than unemployment would (because I cannot live off unemployment). But I would leave if I got one of the jobs that opens up in the spring. I’d have likely only been at this other, imagined, job for 4 – 5 months.

    In the past, I’d have said this isn’t a great thing to do. But my financial reality is I may need to do this. This wouldn’t be a high churn job like customer service or retail (as neither would pay more than my unemployment would pay in this area or offer full time work), it would be a job where most people stay 2+ years.

    How do you draw a line between what you feel is not in line with your professional ethics and what you need to do to ensure you have shelter and food?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Can you instead take a job in a higher-churn field to tide you over? Temp work, retail, etc.? Or, are in you a field and position where you could take on independent contracting work?

      Obviously, push comes to shove, you need to feed yourself and pay the mortgage — so if you have to do it, you have to do it. But I’d work really, really hard to avoid taking a job with a plan to leave in four months. I know folks land in different spots on this, but I think it stinks.

      1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

        Unfortunately in my area those higher church jobs pay around $8 an hour. To meet my most basic expenses, I need closer to $21 and even that would mean selling my car and saving nothing.

        I want to avoid it at all costs. I’ve been the employer in the position of replacing someone so soon and it is frustrating.

    2. It's ethical to CYOA*

      I went a year, A YEAR working 2 part time jobs, one as a janitor and one in retail, working 50 hours a week for BS pay…yeah, unemployment would have paid more, but by the time I won my unemployment judgement (my previous employer…it could be a blog unto itself) I already was working too much in these 2 jobs to continue to qualify. Seriously ugh.

      Anyway, I have a masters degree and another professional certification, and yeah, I spent a year in jobs I hated doing menial work, nearly wiped out my 401k and ate not a whole lot more than humble pie. If you can take a job for a few months to put you in a better spot, do it. You’ll be infinitely happier. It may not seem like the most ethical thing, but I spent the better of the past year being exhausted, broke, and thoroughly depressed working like this and not being able to secure a ‘real’ job. I would avoid it again at all costs and I hope you do too. I’ve been at my ‘real’ job 3 months now, I’m happy, but I’m still struggling to climb out of the financial crater that was made during the past year.

      I really don’t mean to be a downer, but I’ve been there – I wish you nothing but luck!

      1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

        Thank you and I’m sorry you had to do that. I’m glad you found something better now and hope you recover financially soon.

        I spent most of my working life doing low pay work and only in the last five years or so made it out of the paycheck to paycheck working poor. It terrifies me to my core to return to that. I planned so well and this wasn’t supposed to happen.

        1. Birch*

          Just wanna say I feel you. But the important thing is to keep going. This won’t be a defining terrible thing in your life if you don’t let it. I had to move back in with my mother and temp because the funding ran out halfway through my PhD–I got paid $14 an hour temping and that was the most I’d ever made. My job was to go through a warehouse of boxes and doublecheck files from a master list. I wasn’t even allowed to use a computer. It was my personal hell but I made it through to the other side. You will too! Sh*t happens. You just might have to do things you didn’t want to do in the meantime, and that doesn’t mean you’re “returning” to anything. Just keep in mind that it’s a temporary situation!

          And re: needing more $ than high-churn situations, I agree with A Tester below–temping and contracting pays more than you think. At least consider it as a plan C in case you aren’t able to get a higher paying job for the gap anyway (also been there, done that. My life story should be called Overeducated, Underpaid: Why Won’t Anyone Hire Me?).

          1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

            Thank you. I know that logically but it helps to hear it.

            Sadly I live in a fairly small city and so temping and contracting aren’t much of an option. I’m registered with the agencies but the only non-labor jobs they have are around $8-9 an hour. I wish I could move to a bigger city, my options would be much better.

            1. Gumby*

              If it is just for temp work and not for the rest of your life, is there a larger city that is commutable distance away? No one loves driving for 1.5 hours each way, but as a stop-gap – would that be bearable for 6 months?

              Alternatively, is it possible to make enough doing gig work to make up the pay difference? I don’t get the sense that many people make a full-time living from Fiverr, TaskRabbit, Upwork, Freelancer, and their ilk but it might fill in the extra from low paying temp jobs.

              1. Natalie*

                Depending on the exact thresholds your state uses you might also be able to combo temp work and unemployment. Usually if you work your unemployment payment is only reduced by a percentage of what you made, so your aggregate income for that week will be higher than the unemployment payment alone. In my state your UI is a total award amount, so if work part time while collecting UI it stretches out the amount of time you can receive payments.

                1. Xarcady*

                  Do see if this is an option. The last time I was on unemployment, I took a part-time retail job. I could earn 30% of my unemployment award before they started reducing the unemployment payment. That basically meant I had just enough to live on without going into savings. There were a couple of weeks where I was able to pick up enough extra shifts that I didn’t get unemployment money at all–but I had much more money than I would have had.

                  At the very least, it stretches out the amount of time you can collect unemployment.

              2. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

                Sadly the nearest bigger city is 3 hours away. I plan to move one day but it isn’t the right time for that now.

          2. Overeducated*

            Haha, my screename on here was Overeducated and Underemployed for a while. But then I got a better job. It’s a more common experience than a lot of people might think but it does end.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        Totally agree with CYOA. Regardless of the industry you’re in, I cannot see any decent future employer holding it against you for taking a job to pay the bills. Although I don’t hire in my current position, I have various friends who do hire at their respective companies and we’ve discussed this exact issue among several of us. The consensus has been that is alone has not been a deal breaker for a great candidate. If someone is the right fit, a short stint in a “pay the bills” position is not going to be too big of a negative, assuming that all of your other positions have been for relatively long periods.

        And as everyone else said, best of luck. Good thoughts headed your way!

    3. Enginerd*

      What about temp work or contracting? I’m not sure your line of work but it sounds like you’re talking professional level here and many fields have companies that want short term professional staff, especially towards the end of the fiscal year when they’re trying to wrap up projects and finish spending by year end.

      1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

        Thanks, sadly my city is too small to have much of an industry here. Our temp roles are all entry level. I’ve seen what you mean when looking at other cities, though!

    4. A tester, not a developer*

      I’m a big fan of temping/contract work for those sorts of situations. There’s some pretty high end temp opportunities, especially in project work. They’re often paying a premium specifically because they want to be able to use you for a single project then ‘discard’ you with any bad feelings.
      Even if the position has very little to do with the role you’ll be looking for in the spring, it’s pretty easy to spin it as a positive: “I know that hires in March, and I wanted to make sure I was available, so I did contract work as a project manager in the meantime”.

      1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

        I would actually love project work! Unfortunately in my area to get contract project work you need 7-10 years experience as a titled project manager and I have very little sadly. We actually have a weirdly large number of project managers in this area so those jobs go quickly to very qualified candidates. The left over contract roles are low paying and entry level.

    5. Drop Bear*

      Ethics are a luxury to some extent – It isn’t ideal but in the end you need what is required to make sure you have enough food to eat and safe housing. If it means that you take a job for 4 -5 months when the expectation is you’ll stay longer, because nothing else suitable is available, then so be it. If it is beyond what you can bring yourself to do ethically (leave in Spring I mean) you can always wait and apply for the ‘better’ jobs the following spring after all (assuming that is financially viable etc).

      4. ChachkisGalore*

        I’d also try to remind yourself that if you took this two year job, but something changed within the company they probably wouldn’t hesitate to lay you off after 4-5 months.

        Plus, I really like Drop Bear’s idea about potentially staying for a year and 4-5 months if it is just too much for your conscience to handle. Personally though, I think its ok to be a bit flexible when it comes down to self-preservation.

        1. boo bot*

          I agree with this, and when you’re considering the ethical implications, I think it’s worth thinking about the impact to both parties. If you take the 2-year job and leave after 4-5 months, you will to some extent inconvenience the company and the people who have to deal with replacing you.

          If you take the $8/hour job(s), it sounds like you will seriously derail your own life and financial stability. The potential impact to you is way more serious, and I think it’s fair to prioritize self-preservation here.

    6. look out for yourself*

      I would look out for myself. You also have to consider the fact that although the roles you want may open up later in the year, it is not a guarantee. Apply to this other, imagined, job, even if others stay 2+ years and you aren’t planning on staying that long. They will figure out how to proceed if you end up moving on in 4-5 months and you can always leave the job off your resume if it makes sense.

      1. Out of Work and Running Out of Options*

        I think the hard thing for me is that while nothing is a guarantee my industry has a massive shortage of qualified workers and the likelihood that I wouldn’t get an offer in that time frame is really small. But I do get what you’re saying. Anything could happen.

    7. Boredatwork*

      I think waiting to take a job is being penny smart but pound foolish. What if you don’t receive offers in that March/April time frame? It could take you an extra cycle to get into a position you actually want instead of the first one offered due to desperation.

      Take the 2 yr job, if you leave in 4 months that’s unfortunate for the employer but you need to worry about you.

    8. Persephone Mulberry*

      Temp/contract work? It may not be directly in your field but in my area, skilled administrative work pays $16-20/hr, which at least closes the gap moreso than retail. Right now I’m doing data entry for $16/hr and supplementing with an on-demand grocery shopping/delivery gig.

    9. Lupin Lady*

      Ethically speaking you solve the issue by having open communication with employers, but this means taking what you can get job-wise – it won’t all be professional work.
      I’ve been in a similar situation and took seasonal work in landscaping/snow clearing (you may live too far south for that to be an option) which paid well on an hourly basis while I looked for professional work elsewhere. It worked for me, with great relationships and a story that most professionals think is entertaining when I divulge.

    10. Yet another Kat*

      I know that this has been mentioned a lot, but re: temp/contract work – have you looked into remote options? I am seeing a decent amount of high level admin and mid-level project management work being advertised as remote temp. Would anything like that be an option for you?

    11. Ender Wiggin*

      Assuming your ethical conundrum is about leaving in 5 months, not about the actual work you would have to do – go for it. You’re not seriously considering impoverishing yourself because you don’t want to leave a job after 5 months? That’s just nuts.

    12. Bea*

      You’re leaning way too hard on loyalty and ethics to a hypothetical company.

      You need to find a job that pays your bills. Then they can earn your loyalty and you can fuss around with the “awww imma leave you for a much better job, how unfortunate.”

      Most will assume you’ll leave them if you’re taking a job outside your history. So you’ll already be up against that issue. If someone hires you, they’re aware you’re not in it forever.

      It’s frustrating as an employer but so is a lot of things.

      Do not suffer for the sake of a multi million dollar company. It doesn’t speak poorly about you or your ethics.

    14. LurkieLoo*

      Can you get creative with your finances to reduce your overhead? Maybe you could find a roommate. If your car is not paid off, and you are paying a mortgage, I think you can call and get both to let you skip a payment (or maybe 2 in the next 6 months) and add it to the end of the loan. If your car is paid off, you could reduce your car insurance to the state minimum. Health care open renewal is coming up . . . can you find a cheaper plan? If you’re renting, are you able to move to something more affordable? Get a lower paying job and have less taxes taken out. You’ll have to pay it when taxes come due, of course, but you’ll (hopefully) have the good job by then. You can always make payment plans and/or file for an extension.

      I assume you’ve cut all unnecessary expenditures such as cable, subscriptions (Spotify, Netflix, etc.), eating in instead of out, and all the “easy” things to do.

      You could also get creative with meal prepping or at least buying things in bulk when they are on sale and freezing for later. Or even adding beans, rice, potatoes to meat (if you’re not vegetarian, of course) to decrease the amount of meat you feel you need to eat at each meal.

      As for the ethics of it . . . you have to do what you have to do and while it does suck as an employer to lose a person you’ve just finished training, that just happens sometimes. You never know, maybe you’ll like the new place well enough to stay longer term.

      I think my short term “gig work” of choice would probably be waiting tables or bartending. I’ve been a server before and it is not much fun, but if you can find a decent place, at least it pays (with tips) better than retail.

      1. TechWorker*

        I’m with the others who think you’re giving way too much to your hypothetical employer here. Yes if you leave after 5 months and they usually have people who stay 2 years that might be a bit annoying, but they’re not giving you the job out of the goodness of their hearts, and if their business went bust in the next 5 months they wouldn’t hesitate to put you out of a job. I don’t see this as ‘unethical’. Sub-optimal for the employer, yes, but so are many other things.

  12. What’s with Today, today?*

    Both our bathrooms are out of order. The plumber is coming but in the meantime it’s not fun. And we can’t leave and go home, because the radio station has to run. We keep going across the street to the police station. Took them some donuts as a thank you for letting us use their restrooms. It’s Friday, right?!

    1. Greg NY*

      You should have found another studio to host the show from. Isn’t it illegal for an employer to operate without working bathrooms?

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        It’s not possible to find another studio. We are a small market station in a rural area. This is an impossibility.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That’s very rarely how these things work. Radio and TV stations are expected to operate in the most extraordinary circumstances, sometimes with employees either up and working around the clock or sleeping on the floor when they can. Not to mention that studios aren’t like normal offices; they require a ton of set-up. Running across the street to use a toilet sucks, but broadcasting is a, “you gotta do what you gotta do” business.

      3. Woulda Coulda Shoulda*

        You should really learn not to couch things in terms of “should”. It comes across pretty poorly ;)

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        At the risk of making myself sound totally elderly… one of my summer jobs as a kid was working in a Fotomat booth. That chain was a photo-processing service run out of dinky little one-room buildings stuck in the middle of parking lots. For each booth, the company had an agreement with some other nearby business to use its bathroom. It was hellish on a rainy day. And as the most junior cashier on the roster, I got assigned to an undesirable booth. They had good sales, they had shade — but the bathroom agreement was with a service station that, er, did not have high standards for cleanliness. I still shudder.

      5. Mediamaven*

        They aren’t purposefully withholding the bathrooms for goodness sakes. They called a plumber. They just haven’t gotten there yet.

    4. Rey*

      I think this is actually an OSHA issue, and if the plumber hasn’t already fixed it (legit fixed, not ordering parts and be back in two hours), your employer might need to start sending people home or come up with another plan. There may be individuals who aren’t comfortable speaking up to say that this arrangement isn’t working for them (to name a few: they aren’t comfortable with going across the street, they feel pressure to not go as often as they would prefer, they aren’t comfortable going into a police station, medications or health conditions that are negatively affected).

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        So, we are a small market radio station with less than 10 full time employees. The radio station has to run whether the toilets are working or not. We can’t just not do sponsored, paid programming because the toilet is out of order. The problem was discovered this morning, the plumber has been called. Plumbing issues happen, and we can’t shut the doors because of it. I’m just venting.

      2. Free Meerkats*

        This is covered in 29 CFR 1910.141(c). It only requires that toilet facilities be provided. It’s quite likely that the police station across the street would meet this requirement. Given it’s an unseen emergency situation, I don’t know any inspector (except maybe Hugo Habercore) who would ding them on this. However, if it looks like it will be a day or more, I’d order a portable toilet and put it out of sight behind the building – mainly for the shy people who don’t want anyone to know they use the toilet.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          I emailed my television tech friend, and he said OP, you’ve got it good. His station would have giving him a bucket to use with a plank as a seat.

          Hang in there. Radio/TV is a totally different beast from a regular office.

    5. LKW*

      Everyone can quote regulations until the sun goes down it won’t make a difference. They’ve found a solution and that’s better than an emergency port-o-john.

      Keep up with the baked goods. Consider a few pizzas for the overnight shift.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        Luckily, we have a great relationship with our Police Department. We have always been good neighbors! I think they have enjoyed us coming in and visiting today, and I got a few good news leads. :) And the plumber is here!

    6. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Oh no! That happened to us once, there was construction outside of our building and we had no running water for about half a day! Thankfully it was fixed fairly quickly and the office building across the street let us use their restrooms.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The gods of annoyance are out to get us as well — our phone system is on a network, and *every single call* sounds like it’s being funneled through a science-fiction special effect. International presentations with dozens of attendees had people dropping off to listen to the recording later because we just couldn’t hear anything.
      But yes — it’s FRIDAY!

  13. seeking a lawyer for the end of the world*

    Hi all. I’m seriously considering taking the step of consulting an employment lawyer. What sort of things should I look for or look out for when trying to find a lawyer? Are there red flags there too I should keep an eye out for? I’ve poked around and it looks like some do free consultations and some charge, is either one of those something that indicates things to me? I’ve never done anything involving a lawyer before so I don’t know what to look for, and while I know a couple lawyers, they’re not in this field. Any help would be greatly appreciated, especially since I’m looking down the barrel of legal fees and getting scared.

    1. Holly*

      I would ask the lawyers you know, especially if you trust them, and they practice representing clients. Anything regarding whats normal in terms of consultations etc. should be somewhat universal. I’m a government attorney who is aware that many of my adversaries are terrible. I would make sure you talk in person with anyone you want a consultation from, and see how you feel – do you trust this attorney to care about your case? Remember who you are? Does the attorney answer your questions meaningfully? And don’t be afraid to follow up with your attorney – bother them even. It’s important that they seem on top of deadlines and will take proper care with your case.

      1. DCGirl*

        I got the recommendation for my attorney from a government attorney who defends the government in employment issues. I asked for his most fearsome adversary.

        1. Holly*

          That’s not a bad idea at all. I definitely have a few people I’d recommend that others steer clear from.

    2. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      (I am not your lawyer, this isn’t legal advice. Just as a CYA :) )
      Ask your lawyer friends for referrals to people who ARE in that field. We know a lot of people.
      Talk with multiple lawyers. Make sure you feel wholly and entirely comfortable with telling them every dirty blanket truth and exposing every skeleton in your closet–if you don’t feel that comfortable, it’s not the right lawyer.
      Be honest with the attorney. Don’t sugarcoat or lie. Ask if the initial conversation is confidential and tailor your conversation based on that.
      Specific to the US: Many attorneys work on contingency, especially with employment issues. That means, should you win a judgement, they get a certain percentage of your judgement as their fees and you don’t have to pay additional costs.
      Hope this helps, good luck!

      1. seeking a lawyer for the end of the world*

        Thank you, I’ll get in touch with them! I only know one lawyer who works in this state (the joys of being spread out) but I’ll ask her. And thanks for the note about the initial consult not being confidential, I didn’t even think of that.

        1. Natalie*

          No harm in asking lawyers who live in other states. It’s a long shot that they would know someone in your state, but it won’t do you any harm to ask!

      2. Logan*

        Agreed – I know of a semi-retired lawyer who is great, but at this stage in his career he only does the easy stuff (real-estate, wills, etc). Yet he is also the perfect guy to ask if you needed someone else, as you could tell him your problem and budget, and he’d give you the best person that you could afford.

      3. LKW*

        Do you know any paralegals or folks in law enforcement? While the law enforcement folks mostly know criminal lawyers, they might be able to hook you up with a good paralegal or criminal lawyer who knows other lawyers.

        I wouldn’t worry too much about those that charge standard fees versus % of compensation as a mark of a good lawyer. For those who can’t afford initial legal fees the % of compensation model is a way to get representation. And those lawyers typically don’t take cases they can’t win. So if you start there, you may get a sense of whether or not you have a strong case. But you don’t have to stay with them if you get a bad vibe talking to them.

      4. AnonThisTime*

        Ditto. This is what I did when I had to consult an employment lawyer.

        A lawyer friend from a totally different field referred me to a couple of people he know who were employment law. Followed up with those folks and narrowed down (for instance, one guy focused more on the employer side), had an initial conversation with one. He asked the pertinent questions to get the lay of the land and he told me options in terms of course of action, risks and reward for each. He explained that it would be on contingency if I went forward and how that would work (which is as Indefinite Contract Attorney described).

    3. Not a Badmin anymore*

      There’s a site called avvo which as I understand is a sort of yelp for lawyers, this may be helpful or getting a good recommendation from someone else would probably be best.

    4. CTT*

      Third-ing to ask the lawyers you know! They might work in a firm that has employment lawyers, their best friend from law school might work in that area, they might have a sister who does (*raises hand*). They can also tell you what to expect from a consultation and what to look out for.

    6. Calmeye*

      Try to find one who does more than simply telling you what the laws and facts are. In the past I’ve worked with lawyers who just told me the relevant law without any real explanation or interpretation of it, which I found confusing and frustrating. The current employment lawyer I deal with for work (I’m in HR) will explain to me how a law on X has been applied in court, and his best guess of our chances of winning based on previous experience/similar cases.

      Another thing I find helpful about a lawyer is their expertise in negotiation. When I was trying to settle a difficult case our lawyer gave me pointers on how to phrase certain arguments to diplomatically steer the other person towards agreeing with us. It wasn’t help with law specifically, but definitely useful.

    7. neverjaunty*

      In the US, a contingency fee (percentage of eventual recovery) is the norm for employee-side law because most working folks can’t afford hourly fees.

      Your state likely has a website where you can look up every lawyer licensed to practice there. It should be easy for you to make sure your lawyer is in good standing and doesn’t have a record of discipline.

    8. Gaia*

      Whatever you do, make sure you are comfortable with your lawyer. I’m not a person who does well with open conflict and I previously hadn’t had good experience with a lawyer who I felt wasn’t working in my best interest so I was nervous. But when I had to deal with an employment lawyer I knew I had found the right one when he was blunt about my case (that it wasn’t an easy win, but it was worth fighting because the company was in the wrong), offered to give me advise if I wanted to try to negotiate instead of suing, and let me just vent my frustrations sometimes (even if they weren’t terribly on point to this particular case). He was calm when I felt like I was swimming in chaos and he was credibly angry about how the company was behaving.

      And, when it was clear that I couldn’t drag this out any longer and needed a resolution he got me a solid settlement and was honest that I might get more if we went through with a judgement but it could be another 6 – 12 months and only I could decide if it was worth it or not. No pressure.

    9. SechsKatzen*

      Another vote for “ask the lawyers you know.” In terms of fees, it really will vary by practice area, specific sub-field of a practice area, and location. As far as free initial consultations go, I’d look into what that actually means. Some lawyers (like myself, though not in employment law) will do free telephone consultations and then charge for in-office. Others are free even for in-office consults. It really depends. In general with attorneys of similar experience level I wouldn’t say the free vs. charged initial consults have much of an impact on hourly rates–in my area at least it’s actually the ones who have substantially higher rates who are more likely to do free initial consultations.

      In my experience (though again, I don’t practice employment law), the employee-side is more likely to be contingency-based although it will ultimately depend on what your needs are. The biggest “red flag” giveaway to me is always if an attorney guarantees or promises a result. You just can’t do that–or, perhaps you can, but very rarely. There are just too many possibilities and variables especially at the beginning of a case for anything to be guaranteed. Also, to the extent you have the option of doing this, do pay attention to personality “fit.” Some lawyers are more litigious than others–a particular practice style or approach isn’t necessarily “wrong,” but it’s important that you feel your needs are being met and your goals are being accomplished. Above all, make sure that you believe the attorney you’re speaking to will listen to you, take your concerns seriously, and even be realistic with you if he/she thinks you’re trying for an unreasonable outcome. And, if you’re not sure, you can get a second opinion. Best of luck!

      CYA: This does not create an attorney-client relationship.

  14. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom, and thoughts on Boss’s Day

    I had vacation this week (commence with the happy dance) so I missed most of the goings on, but there’s enough that goes on that even just being here last Saturday night and this morning, it’s a wild ride.

    Wakeen thinks that Princess Di was murdered. Or, assassinated, I guess? We were talking last Friday about the royal wedding, and he just comes slightly out of left field with that observation. Thankfully, Fergus was not here, so I didn’t get to hear his thoughts on the subject.

    I came in to work with damp hair today, which is relevant. I have fairly thick hair, and even though I washed it last night, it was still damp this morning. In the past, I happened to mention one day that my hair was still wet, and Fergus asked if he could touch it. I told him no, and that that was weird.

    I’m now going to work on my photoshop skills and see if I can fix this woman’s super skinny eyebrows. Tips appreciated.

    Boss’s Day was Tuesday. I wasn’t at work, and even if I was, I would not have celebrated with my current boss in any way. However, I love Boss’s Day. My first job was at my family’s hardware store, working for my dad. Tuesday was also his birthday, so I get to celebrate him double for his birthday, and as the best/first boss I had.

    1. Quill*

      I have hair that retains water like hell. And it’s curly.

      As a child I Anne-of-green-gables’d people for messing with it.

    3. Cheryl Blossom*

      [S]o I get to celebrate him double for his birthday, and as the best/first boss I had.

      As Boss’s Day was always meant to be celebrated.

    4. Kittymommy*

      Fergus is sooo weird. I’m both fascinated and appalled by him. Wakeem continues to be one of those people that I would routinly look at in disbelief, like did you really say that our Lord?? Did you mean to say that out loud??

      Small town news room is a weekly test!

    5. What's with Today, today?*

      Wakeen isn’t alone. Princess Di being assassinated has always been a pretty big conspiracy theory. Some people think the Royal Family had it done, others think it was Dodi Fayed’s people. I’m not a believer in conspiracy theories, so I don’t buy any of it.

      1. Ender Wiggin*

        It’s a massive conspiracy theory on this side of the Atlantic. I’ve pointed out to people that she voluntarily got into a car with a drunk driver and chose not to wear a seat belt. I really don’t see how any conspiracy theory holds up. The doctor who did the autopsy said that she would probably still be alive today if she had chosen to wear a seat belt. I don’t see how any conspiracy could have prevented her from putting on a seat belt. It’s a silly theory.

      2. Jemima Bond*

        I’ll try to post a link in a comment but this may be the clip Wakeen needs to see. It’s a sketch by British comedians Mitchell and Webb, and as well as being funny it rather cleverly points out why the conspiracy theories are nonsense. If the link is no go, go to YouTube and search “Mitchell and Webb Diana” and it should come top. Opens in a blueish-lit room with the caption “somewhere in Whitehall 1997”.
        Caution: if Wakeen doesn’t get sarcasm this may not work.

    6. Lizabeth*

      Skinny eyebrows:
      1. Fix the photo up to the point of the eyebrows and save it. Then do the work on the eyebrows on a copy.
      2. Do the eyebrow fixing on a separate layer. Zoom out and toggle Layer on and off to see how natural it looks.
      3. Start with the smallest brush size possible, plus vary the brush size for a more natural look.
      4. Vary the color and opacity of the fill in.

    7. fogharty*

      You can find Photoshop brushes online that mimic hair.
      Download a set of those then pick a color from existing eyebrows.
      Use a new layer set to Darken or Multiply and lightly brush in additional eyebrows. You can change the transparency of the eyebrow layer to make the blending more natural.
      Have fun!

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My biggest suggestion about the PhotoShop… did you check with the woman about fixing her eyebrows?
      Someone “helpfully” edited my father’s yearbook photo to cover up a chipped front tooth and he was annoyed about it for decades.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It was an obit photo, which I don’t touch unless it’s to color balance/ crop out other people/ change things that don’t change how the person’s face actually was. I just wanted to see if I could do it for my own know-how. Same as how I photoshopped Farquad’s face onto Princess Fiona.

  15. SisterSpider*

    I’m looking for some insight from anyone who has experience with hiring in the federal government. I’ve been with my agency for 10 years and recently applied for a new position (lateral pay move, title bump to manager, but not a direct line supervisor). I interviewed 6 weeks ago and heard through gossip that they hired externally for the position. I received nothing from USAjobs saying I wasn’t selected, and I see the directors I would have been working for (and one I interviewed with) several times a week. Quite frankly, I’m feeling a little disrespected that no one spoke to me directly about not getting selected for the position, which I am more than qualified for. Is this normal? Should I assume there’s a glitch in the USAjobs notification process and just let it go?

    1. SisterSpider*

      I should add that this new hire has not been announced in any official capacity yet, and they usually wait until right before a person starts to announce these things, so it could still be months before anything is said.

    2. SWOinRecovery*

      There are some instances where federal employer’s are required to give you that information, but I don’t think they’d be required to notify you in a particularly quick instance. Categories that require notice include if you have a federal hiring preference (ie. veterans preference) or if your workplace is unionized and it’s in the collective bargaining agreement. You can also look to your handbook, they may have standardized notification processes for everyone. If you fit under one of these, the handbook, CBA, or OPM’s guidance for preference hiring would likely point to positions to contact about where you stand/why you weren’t notified. Otherwise, you could tactfully mention something to a trusted manager to get their impression.

      I’ve heard of job candidates FIOA-ing information on non-selection for a job. I don’t know anything about the process and whether it’s restricted, but it would be one way to express your displeasure :)

      1. SisterSpider*

        Thanks – I’m not even so much interested in the reasons they didn’t hire me, I just think it’s really inconsiderate to keep employees twisting in the wind waiting for a notification.

        1. No thank you*

          State agency here. We’ve taken 6 months to finalize a hire and notifications had to wait for the entire process to play out, including lots of time for HR to obstruct everything.

          1. SisterSpider*

            Thanks – I’m so sick of working for the feds I could vomit. I should have never left industry.

        2. SWOinRecovery*

          I agree! The petty version of me wants you to FOIA them as retribution (it’s likely to be a small pain for them), but that’s definitely not the tactful more…

    3. Atlantic Toast Conference*

      Is it possible the hiring process hasn’t been totally finalized? I was recently offered a federal job and due to various vagaries, there were about 8 weeks between when the offer was extended and when I officially accepted (insert eye rolls about government HR here). I’m sure the other candidates were wondering why they didn’t hear anything for so long! I’m pretty sure hiring managers are proscribed from informally circumventing USAJobs; and in my experience, you always do get notified by eventually.

      1. nonymous*

        It took three months for my coworker to get an official offer letter via HR. In addition to the normal slow process, there was a song-and-dance because HR wanted someone to set a formal start date before they issued an offer letter, and Coworker told them three weeks notice to previous employer (but wouldn’t give notice until he had an offer in hand). When I came on board my supervisor was congratulated on pushing it through so fast (about 9 months). Another coworker had his start date delayed because we were on furlough for two weeks – can you imagine being told to check the news to see if to report to first day of work?

      1. SisterSpider*

        Chrome autopopulated my email address when I posted this, and I couldn’t figure out how to fix it without deleting and reposting. I’m not worried about this getting back to management and federal employment is more or less a zero consequence zone anyway (except for very limited circumstances).

    5. Hooray College Football*

      My experience (hiring support staff for the Feds) via USA Jobs: The people in HR who do the original vetting of applications to determine the competitive range don’t always do a good job. Plus, if Veteran’s Preferences are in play, you may have been eliminated because you don’t have one. The hiring person gets a list of applicants that has already been vetted by some human resources office (mine was in Philadelphia for a job in DC, they didn’t understand my requirements well, but they also don’t call to ask questions). For my patent paralegal job, someone in law enforcement (a gate guard) made the cut because the word “legal” was in their resume. You can’t hire someone who is not on that list. If none of those candidates are acceptable, you have to start over, and write up why they aren’t acceptable.

      1. SisterSpider*

        I am definitely familiar with this. I had to call HR and tell them to put me on the interview list for the position to begin with, because they definitely didn’t understand the job nor my qualifications on my resume.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I was “selected” for a federal job and then completely ghosted. I knew the job’s starting date but never received any follow up until almost 6 months later when I received an email telling me that I was NOT selected as a finalist after all, but encouraging to reapply for other positions with the agency in the future. I too, feel disrespected that it took 6 months to tell me that I was not really selected.

      When I log into USAjobs it still shows that I applied for that job and it still lists me as being “selected” almost a year later. (I could hide the job if I wanted to so that it would no longer display.) I don’t think there’s anything wrong with USAjobs, however the people in the HR offices of the agencies that we applied to really are NOT doing a good job and they are making their respective agencies and our country look bad. It’s this kind of behavior that contributes to government agencies having a difficult time filling some of their vacancies.

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      This is very interesting. I am a federal employee who was recently promoted, but this entire round of promotions was odd and not in keeping with what has happened in the past.

      I applied, never got an update that I BQ’ed, thought all the interviews were done and I wasn’t getting one since I didn’t BQ, got contacted for an interview by the selecting official, conducted interview, got word about a week later that I was selected by the e-mail came from an HR type official, not the selecting official. The selecting official typically calls to make the offer, but no such luck. After I accepted the position, I kept waiting for a congratulatory call or e-mail, but nothing. My boss didn’t even know I got the promotion until I sent him the e-mail. And then today, about a week after the e-mail, I got the USAjobs update that I was selected.

      I would not lose hope entirely. This whole round has been wonky. I’m not sure if something is going on somewhere up the chain or someone has dropped a ball somewhere or what. Good luck!

      Oh….and none of my peers that applied for the promotion have been updated that they were not selected, despite all promotions now being filled. Again, not sure what the deal is.

    8. Basia, also a Fed*

      I work for the federal government and USA Jobs generally sends the notification that you didn’t get it slightly after the new person starts. I assume this is in case it doesn’t work out, so they can go back into the pool. They won’t announce who it is until that person passes their background check, again so they can pick someone else if they don’t pass. I’m not saying this is nice or fair, just the way they do it. I have encouraged my manager to call everyone who was interviewed and wasn’t selected, instead of letting them wait months for the USA Jobs notification, because it’s the right thing to do.

  16. I agree with everything you say*

    A manager “Gary” who was rude, ineffective and constantly late/absent has been let go. Hurrah! His replacement is someone I already know and I have positive expectations.

    (Gary once showed up late for a meeting with me and gave me a random promotional googly eyed sticky thing to apologise, wtf. I always called him googly Garry after that.)

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Huh. Isn’t that Alison’s advice–When your employees are annoyed with you, hand them stickers?

  17. Anon Today*

    What are your favorite conference giveaways? I use tons of lip balm and keep hand sanitizers in multiple locations throughout my house/office, but I think koozies and stress balls are useless. What’s your gotta-grab-some item on vendor tables at conferences?

    1. BH90210 Fan*

      Pens that double as a stylus. I grab those and keep them everywhere in my house, bags, etc.

      Something we’re giving away at an upcoming fundraising breakfast (donated by the sponsor) is a cell phone camera cover. Target has one called “Private Eyez” but you can Google camera cover for other options. I bet you can find one that can be personalized, too.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      The best giveaway I’ve seen was free professional headshots. Not grab-and-go, but something of real value (and, of course, the nature of having your picture taken means that you have to hang out at the table for at least a few minutes — so the vendor has a chance to chat with you about their product or service).

      1. Dorothy Zbornak*

        I went to a conference in February that offered free headshots and I was so excited! But the photos were awful. We were in terrible lighting, standing against a stark white background, and the photographer was very short while I’m very tall (5’10), so she was shooting up at me instead of putting the camera up higher to fix the angle. The photos were so bad. I looked like that two-face woman in the bad lighting from that episode of Seinfeld.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I just got a screen cleaner. It’s just a tiny square plastic thing with a roller that scrubs fingerprints off your phone screen. It’s pretty neat.

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        I like those. I have one I bought from Etsy with a totoro on it, and it has a small plastic peg that goes in your headphone jack. (I don’t do that because I’m afraid I’ll lose it.) I got another one from a job fair. It has a sticky back so you can plaster it on the back of your phone. I think you can order those in bulk from a company called DigiClean.

    4. Birch*

      Best conference freebie is a decent tote bag. Not one of those flimsy plastic-fabric ones or the really thin cotton/poly ones with straps so narrow they get creased and cut into your shoulder. NICE tote bags with wide straps made out of canvas with the logo in an unobtrusive corner.

      Also, flash drives, actually good pens, lanyards, funny/cute keychains, mugs, and snacks.

      1. Dorothy Zbornak*

        I have too many tote bags already, but the sturdy ones are good for grocery shopping. My work put on a conference last week and the tote bags were just unreal. Really sturdy, thick canvas with thick rolled handles you can put over your shoulder. People in the office were jumping on the extra bags.

        1. Ashley*

          The cooler kind are the best. We constantly advertise for my partners office and another company.

          Post-it’s and tablets are also always nice.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        Please tell me the flash drives were still in original packaging? I mean, I think our security office would still say ‘nope’ on that, but it makes me a little bit more okay with the idea.

    5. Bekx*

      Our health insurance company had those small hot/cold pads that you microwave or freeze! They are AWESOME!

      3. Ghostwriter*

        I was excited to get one of these before. I don’t know if there’s different kinds, but the one I got had small gel balls in some sort of clear, round, vinyl-like pouch. I followed the instructions on the back, but my microwave must have been too strong because the bag ballooned as the gel balls heated, and it got stretched out. Wish I’d grabbed two so I could try heating it on a lower setting!

      1. JXB*

        I’ve notice this year those (branded with company logo) have become a really popular give-away! Very practical.

    7. BottleBlonde*

      I like the hand sanitizers too, and pens! I haven’t bought a pen in years and may never have to again. My favorite are the bags themselves though, I use them for all sorts of things.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Well, not the cheap ballpoint pens that dry out right away, but, yeah, I’ve gotten some nice pens over the years.

    9. AnotherAlison*

      It’s pretty lame, but I like nice notebooks. When I was a little kid, my grandma worked for a printing company, and I always had tons of random paper for crafts, etc., so I’m still a sucker for free paper. Also: nice coffee cups.

    10. Lucky*

      External cell phone battery. Charge it up and drop it in the bottom of your handbag or backpack (don’t forget the cords) for times when you’re travelling and can’t find an outlet to charge your phone/iPad/Kindle.

    11. Marion Ravenwood*

      Another vote for pens. When I used to go to political party conferences as a student, I always went straight for the pens, and it meant I didn’t have to buy any all year. That said, from a ‘manning the stall’ perspective, (wrapped) sweets always went down well.

      Part of me also has a soft spot for those little fluffy ball characters with googly eyes, stick-on feet – so you can attach them to a monitor etc – and usually a ribbon with the company logo on it. (They probably have a proper name, but I forget what it is.) I know they’re totally useless, but I think they’re cute!

    12. ArtK*

      A reasonable size USB thumb drive with your promotional materials on it. When I’m done with those, I can delete them and have the thumb drive. I can never find a thumb drive when I need one!

    13. Quill*

      Koozies are kind of wasteful, but I do like the stress balls because occasionally I’ll use them to do some discreet in-chair back adjustment.

      My favorite is fine tipped pens with retractable tips. Especially if they have a concealed light or something… I totally hoarded the pen flashlight the last time I had one.

    15. Digital Janitor*

      Good quality tote bags are ALWAYS nice. All the other items go in there, so everyone sees your logo for the whole conference. Travel mugs are also great — especially if the conference’s beverage service cups don’t have lids.

      Being a techie, I get tech-related gear most often. External batteries are nice, and I prefer the ones with solar cells. You can leave it on a windowsill or car seat and toss it in your bag when you need it.

      I love the multi-cables, usually at least 3-in-1 (micro USB/USB C/Lightning) USB cables for device charging. When you have a spare phone charger and battery, strangers will happily chat with you while they get enough juice to last until lunch.

    16. Reba*

      LOL I try to avoid everything in this genre. If the freebies are already pre-loaded in my obligatory conference tote, I sigh.

    17. I have too many promotional giveaways*

      +1 for cell phone charger but that can get expensive to make, if your company was looking to put their logo on an item to give to conference attendees. I love the tote bags but I know people who hate them because they have too many. What does your company do? Maybe an item related to the industry might be good to consider.

    18. it_guy*

      The best one I got a conference (IT related), was a cardboard box, that when unfolded would turn your camera into a VR headset!

      Totally cheap, maximum Geekiness!

    19. Emmie*

      Nice pens. Post its. Hand sanitizer. Would love head shots, but never been to a place that had it. I also once received a Credit-Card sized flash drive. It was the coolest thing EVER, and I kept important docs in my wallet. I’ll add a link below, but you can find it via a “USB drive card” Google search.

    21. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      Good pens, webcam cover, mini first aid kit, mini chargers, pop socket/cell phone “chair”, unscented lotion.

    22. Armchair Analyst*

      As a parent of preschoolers, I love little squeezy toys that are literally toys for kids.
      NICE water bottles, like stainless.
      You know, I don’t love small notepads but big ones that are more book-like or nicer get used. Post-its if they’re useful, not like, the pack of 12.
      My environmental organization used to give away NICE reusable bags (the kind that roll up into their own bag) and those were popular AND I like them.

    23. LKW*

      At my last conference we gave away those little teeny laptop camera privacy thingies. You stick em on – the window slides out to block the camera, back to expose the camera.

    24. Mrs. Psmith*

      I went to recent conference that Disney was at and they were giving away portable bluetooth speakers. I really liked that one. Also, popsockets, screen cleaners and pens. I also love stickers and cleverly branded T-shirts (Lexis/Nexis gave away shirts that simply said “True Story.” on the front and their logo on the back).

    25. b*

      Good pens are useful. I had to buy pens last year for the first time in a decade. It was sad.
      The last few years at conferences my favorite give aways were from Caterpillar, who had a scale model of their equipment, and another vendor who gave out scale models of military equipment. I have two different tanks, a Blackhawk, and a Humvee. Both produced a new vehicle every year and we always checked out their booths first.

      2. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

        I have a model of a BNSF train car that my dad got at a job fair many years ago. Those are really fun.

    26. Ama*

      I love anyone who has glasses cleaning cloths (it’s rare but they are out there), because I *always* need more.

      My nonprofit employer has some blank spiral notebooks that the attendees at our scientific programs just snatch up — and these are people who go to a lot of conferences and get offered a ton of freebies. They are pretty nice — they’re 5×7 and have just enough paper to last for a while but not so much they are heavy to carry. Many of my coworkers, including myself, use them at work as well.

    27. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Man, I’m jealous of some of these! Usually all I get is crappy pens and coffee mugs.

      The best thing I ever got was a bottle opener key chain (still on my keys after 18 years) and a decent tape measure. I also once got a conference bag that was actually a backpack, which was pretty useful. In my field things like rulers and pencil sharpeners, extra hard lead pencils, and pencil cases would probably go down well.

    28. Mrs. Picklesby*

      I love chip clips and jar openers. I still have one of the flat jar opener from Hibernia Bank. Remember them? They were bought out years ago, but that thing has held up nicely AND I use it all the time.

    29. Gumby*

      I would love a koozie around now. I don’t go to any conferences related to this job so I’ve been reduced to binder clips as my only fidget toys currently at my desk. In the way back days I got a Tangle which was great while it lasted. I might be reduced to actually purchasing something one of these days.

      The ultimate gotta-grab-some is obviously chocolate but only if they sprang for something half-way decent.

      2. On Fire*

        At one conference I attended, a table was making custom luggage tags by laminating attendees’ business cards and then inserting the plastic loop. Unfortunately, I’ve changed jobs since the and had to stop using that tag because of irrelevant contact info.

    31. Not the Speigs*

      I just got a cell phone holder that attaches to your car’s ac vent and has a magnetic strip to attach to the back of your phone. Very useful, works great and now I’m on the hunt for another one!

    32. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A co-worker came home from a publishing convention with a promotional *coffee scoop*. Fantastic souvenir. It’s the age of easy desktop coffee machines, and I’d been messing around guessing with a plastic cafeteria spoon. Now I have a real measuring scoop.
      (Farrah Rochon if you read this, let me thank you!)

      I’m also a big fan of USB sticks and sticky pads.

    33. YetAnotherFed*

      I love swag! Bobble head dolls, pens, miniature flashlights that go on my keychain, notebooks, post it notes, highlighters, post it tags, stylus pens, glasses wipes, clip on blinking lights, pencils, water bottles, coffee mugs, hand sanitizer, insulated bags for the grocery, those athletic backpacks with the string straps (great for packing my bike clothes when commuting), bags sturdy enough to hold hard bound library books, magnet toys, nail files, soft squeeze toys/balls/figures, planners/calendars.

      I would also love but have never received: mini silly putty in tins; a mini UV flashlight (my ThinkGeek pens with that feature keep on breaking); a mini laser pointer that would fit on a keychain; a fidget toy or spinner; keyboard cleaner.

    36. Crylo Ren*

      Coming from someone who used to work in the tradeshow world and has attended their fair share…

      Best thing I ever got from another booth was a little all-in-one tool thing that came in the form of a pen. The top of the pen could be unscrewed and in it was stored all these interchangeable screwdriver heads. It was incredibly handy. I held onto that thing for awhile and was so sad when I lost it!

      Sturdy, embossed notebooks have also been a popular and appreciated giveaway, but can be on the expensive side.

    37. Brrr*

      Here in the great white north toque’s are a good one (warm knit beanie style hat). A recent event I went to was held mostly outdoors and they provided everyone with stretchy knit gloves that were compatible with phone touchscreens. ‘Cause it was snowing in early September…

      1. Cardamom*

        Oh, that reminds me. I didn’t get to go, but I heard about people really appreciating free umbrellas at a conference in a rainy location.

    38. Elizabeth W.*

      Love:
      –Those little tiny keychain flashlights.
      –Pens. People steal mine all the time.
      –Tote bags. In a pinch, I can use them for groceries.
      –T-shirts. I get an XL and sleep in it.
      –Lip balm would make me happy.
      –Little eyeglass or screen cloths.
      In short, anything I can actually use.

      Hate:
      –Mugs. I have WAY. TOO. MANY.
      –With you on stress balls.
      –Insulated travel coffee cups. They’re always the wrong volume or don’t fit in my cupholder.

    39. LurkieLoo*

      We went to a tech conference last year and one person was handing out mini bottles of booze with their info tied around the neck. Not sure it was all on the up and up, but it was our favorite. ;) We also collected a bunch of the toy things for my nephews. They thought they were cool.

      I think hand sanitizer is great.

      USB drives or hubs are useful. We put our show literature on a USB drive instead of paper or CDs. They aren’t very high capacity, but are also great for transferring small projects from one computer to another.

      Really nice reusable bags. Candy/snacks. Anything tech related. I also tend to grab all the pens and hope for a couple that actually write well.

    40. pony tailed wonder*

      If y’all ever get a chance to go to the American Library Associations yearly conferences, you should GO. I had one in my hometown so I drove there and I was able to fill my trunk and most of my back seat with free books. Hardbacks, paperbacks, tote bags, candy, fruit, pens, pencils, etc. And I got to get author autographs! I discovered so many new to me authors and I was able to give my co-workers copies of books and gave to patrons. It was glorious!

    41. Someone Else*

      Best giveaways:
      Reusable grocery bags
      Hand sanitizer
      Good pens
      lipstick-sized rechargable USB battery
      Those tiny backpacks that cinch with a drawstring, which is also the shoulder straps?
      battery operated fan (ok so I don’t love these all the time, but if the conference is in Florida, this is a very good giveaway)

      Worst:
      Mugs or anything likely to break in checked luggage
      Stuffed animal of logo/mascot

    42. Operational Chaos*

      PlayStations and a pile of titles to go with. I was working in the gaming industry at the time, though.

    43. char*

      I actually like getting stress balls. I’m constantly fidgeting with my hands, and I’m so rough on stress balls that I tend to tear them apart within weeks, so replacements are always welcome.

    44. AcademiaNut*

      Best ones I’ve gotten – good sturdy shopping bag that’s perfect for carrying over my shoulder at the market and on the bus home, portable luggage scale, silver pen shaped like one of those alien abduction aliens (from Los Alamos labs, no less), coffee mug with my name on it for use at the meeting,

    47. all the candycorn*

      My favorite conference items were:
      -a pen where they engraved your name on it at the booth for free
      -a stuffed dragon
      -a large reusable grocery bag (the size of the ones that TJ Maxx/Marshall’s sell) but *with a zip top.* These were gone by day 2 of the conference, they were so popular, and I saw dozens of people using them as carryons at the airport on the way home
      -an eyeglass microfiber, because I’d forgotten to bring one and my glasses were dirty.
      -insulated lunch totes (I wasn’t at this conference, but everyone at work had one!)

      I don’t like the chapsticks or hand sanitizers, because they’re always an off-brand that tastes/smells weird.

  18. EnfysNest*

    This is about my friends’ workplace, not mine, but since my friends aren’t listening to reason about it, I need somewhere to rant about the disfunction at their job.

    Two of my friends, who I’ll call Wanda and Natasha, work at a small local coffee shop, and another acquaintance of mine, Clint, is the third and final employee there. Their boss and the owner of the shop is Helena. All three are baristas, but Wanda also makes pastries and desserts to sell. Wanda and Natasha have been working there for about 8 or 9 months, and the shop only opened a few months before they started. There used to be two other employees, but they left several months ago and have not been replaced.

    The first problem I noticed was that all three employees are being paid as independent contractors. Helena sets their schedule, their work can only be done at the café (even Wanda’s baking is done at the café during her shifts with company-purchased tools, ingredients, etc.), their daily tasks are assigned by Helena, and everything about their work indicates that they should be employees, not contractors. I told Wanda and Natasha everything I’ve learned from this site about independent contractors and even printed out the SS-8 form for them to submit for official clarification from the IRS about their status. They gave the form to Helena, who said she’d “talk to her accountant about it”. It’s been at least 4 months since then and nary a peep about it from Helena. Both of my friends say that they are saving back 15% of their pay for tax purposes, but I have no idea if that will be enough for them or not.

    Wanda also says Helena promised to reevaluate their pay every 3 months and raise it accordingly, which has (unsurprisingly, to me) not happened. Wanda and Natasha have also told me that they only make about $200 in sales each day (sales, not profit), so I’m not sure how this place is even staying afloat. Apparently, Helena claims that when she’s working alone, she makes $500 a day easily, although Wanda and Natasha find that hard to believe given the low number of customers that come to the shop. But Helena uses this as the basis to constantly lecture Wanda, Natasha, and Clint about how they’re lazy and they’re going to “ruin her shop” and to complain about how she “has to do everything herself” (and also about how Yale wants her “to come be a supervisor for them” [???], but she turned them down because she cares so much about this café [insert massive eyeroll here]).

    So I was already seriously doubting Helena’s level of honesty and trying to convince my friends to at least be wary of her and ideally to find somewhere else to work asap. And then last night in conversation, another bomb dropped – Helena has been telling both Wanda and Natasha that the other one was a terrible employee and at risk of being fired. She would tell Wanda not to do certain tasks during the morning shift because “Natasha is lazy and always on her phone and you need to leave work for her to do”, but then during the later shift, Helena would tell Natasha “Wanda was supposed to do that this morning, but she never does her assigned tasks.” Wanda and Natasha are close friends, but they’ve both spent the last few months thinking that the other is a terrible coworker because of Helena’s lies. Similarly, once when Wanda and Clint were working at the same time, Helena was texting them both, telling Wanda to put the X items in the display and keep the Y items in the back for later, but simultaneously texting Clint to bring out the Y items right at that moment. The two were fighting over item Y until they finally compared their texts side by side and saw the contradictions.

    Helena is actively, serially lying to her employees, she’s paying them incorrectly, she’s not giving them the reviews and raises she told them they would get, she’s gossiping and trying to turn friends against each other, and she whines to them all continuously as if she is the one getting a raw deal. I want my friends to GET OUT OF THERE before she completely wrecks their finances, their relationships, and their view of how a good workplace should operate, but they keep making excuses for her! “Oh, but she’s so nice and sweet.” “I think she’s just in over her head and trying to save the café.” “She really means well.” “She promised she’ll make it right if the taxes come out higher than we expected.”

    I know I can’t fix this, and it’s not technically my problem (although I am really worried about my friends because of it), but they talk about it all the time and it’s just astounding to me how much stress and manipulation this woman can put them through and yet they keep excusing her behavior and trying to see it all through rose-colored glasses. It shouldn’t surprise me, given everything that I read on this site, but this is the first time I’ve known someone in person in that sort of situation and it’s so frustrating to me that she’s getting away with treating my friends like this and no one is holding her accountable.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      There are many places that function this way. I think I know Helena’s sister (joking).
      Your friends can’t fix this and just need to leave.
      I would ask them thinking questions such as “How much longer are you going to put up with this?” or “How’s that job search going?” or “How will you know when she has crossed a boundary with you?”

      Meanwhile, their vents to you allow them to discharge a bunch of negative so they can go back to the job. At some point you might want to say, “When you are ready to start your job search I will help if you want but I can’t listen to Helena stories any more.”

    2. Jack Be Nimble*

      I have a very dear friend reporting to an office manager who changes the pay periods on a whim and has never given them a pay stub. I’m helping them network and apply elsewhere but I feel this so intently.

    3. babblemouth*

      I’m concerned about your friends’s health insurance. Do they have a plan in case of an accident or something?

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      $200 per day gross sales * 30 days = $6,000 / month
      $6,000 month – x expenses (rent, utilities, supplies) – monthly salary for 4 people (Wendy, Natasha, Clint, and Helena) = serious negative figure

      Yeah, the math totally doesn’t work. Sounds like Helena is a terrible boss, and she likely also can’t afford to pay her employees more or pay them appropriately because she’s in the red every month.

      If anything, self-interest about the imminent closing of the shop due to bankruptcy should compel your friends to seek other jobs.

      1. EnfysNest*

        Helena co-owns the building or something, so there’s no rent, but even with that, but even with that, yeah, I can’t imagine any way that this place can stay in business.

      2. On Fire*

        And if the shop is NOT in dire financial straits, it may be a money-laundering operation. A few things in the description sounded like red flags, based on what a contact who used to investigate laundering has told me.

        1. LilySparrow*

          You know, that would make sense. By keeping them as contractors, she may be operating entirely off the books.

    5. CaitlinM*

      15% is not enough at all if they are being paid as ICs. That will cover the social security/medicare tax but not their actual federal or state income tax. I do freelance work in addition to my FT job and put away 40% of the freelance pay (though this is my first year doing it so I may be pleasantly surprised…but by my calculations that’s what I’ll need to pay.)

      1. EnfysNest*

        We don’t have state income tax in our state, at least, but I am definitely worried that they are going to come up short come April.

        1. Bea*

          They should saving about 30% without state withholding.

          They’ll be hit with SELF EMPLOYMENT tax when they get a 1099. So full Medicare 6% Full SSI 12% 12% self employed tax and 10% federal.

    6. Ama*

      If you want to you could point out the contradiction between “nice and sweet” and “is openly lying to all of you and trying to make you think the other is the problem.”

      I’d advise your friends not just to hold back money for taxes but to make sure they have savings if they show up one day and the place is closed. It really sounds like they are heading for one of those situations where employees show up one day to find the place closed with no notice or seized by a government entity (I’d be very surprised if Helena was properly paying her sales taxes or rent given how poorly she’s managing the rest of the finances).

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Helena’s not nice, she’s not sweet, the cafe may not be worth saving, and if Yale wants her to work for them, they’re welcome to her.

        In short, run. Like the wind.

    7. WellRed*

      Helena is a bitch and a liar, she’s breaking the law (or whatever it is you break when you pay employees incorrectly), she’s probably not paying sales tax…
      Since they don’t see the problems with her being a bitch and a liar, I’d focus on the tax hit they are going to take, as well as any other hits they have coming down the pike.

    8. M. Albertine*

      If she’s paying them as independent contractors, your friends are not going to be able to get unemployment when that business goes under. You might consider warning them of that risk.

      1. EnfysNest*

        I didn’t know that – I will definitely bring that up with Natasha (Wanda has two other part time jobs).

    9. Ender Wiggin*

      I’ve no idea how taxes work in the US but is there any possibility that Helena could be just telling them she’s keeping their 15% for tax but actually using it to prop up her business? So when the place eventually goes bust they will not only owe the extra above the 15% they will owe the entire amount including that 15% they thought was being kept?

      2. Jennifer Thneed*

        Independent contractor means that you are a separate business, and you have your own business taxes, and the people you work for (who are NOT your employers) do not pay any kind of payroll taxes for you. Nothing comes out of the check at all.

      3. Ender Wiggin*

        Oh right. Why would Helena be in any way involved in their taxes then? If 15% turns out not to be enough then that’s their responsibility not hers from the sound of it. I don’t get why Helena is promising to make it right if that’s too little – they should Google what they actually owe and keep that aside.

    10. AcademiaNut*

      I think you just have to resign yourself to the fact that this is a lesson that your friends are going to learn the hard way. I’d probably go with one last blunt statement along the lines of “Listen, you know Helena is a manipulative liar who is knowingly breaking employment law and is running a failing business. You’re going to get completely screwed over and she’s not going to care and she’s certainly not going to give you 15% of your annual salary to make things right with the IRS. So what are you going to do about it?”

      And then after that, refuse to be their dumping ground for venting – change the subject, shrug and say “Well, that’s what working for Helena means” or, if you’re fed up enough, tell them right out that you’re tired of hearing them complain about something they aren’t interested in changing.

      And maybe go on a vacation around tax time, because that’s going to be really, really messy.

      1. neverjaunty*

        This. I have grown very, very cynical about people who would rather burn to death than admit they’re on fire. Tell your friends “look, we all know she’s screwing you over and you’re going to be in a world of hurt financially. So while I love you guys, I’m done talking about her. How about that [abrupt and permanent subject change]?”

      2. valentine*

        I agree with not absorbing the venting. Helena is abusive and using your friends to sabotage her alleged business. Your friends are doubling down because they feel stuck in the abuse cycle. Leave them to it and be there for them when it implodes. Plugging their numbers into an online tax estimate calculator could open their eyes here. I’m surprised they’re saving 15%. I don’t imagine they can save 40% or more and still eat, and the longer they stay, the deeper in the hole they’ll be.

  19. ThatGirl*

    Good things for the week – my new team lead recognizes how much I took on when our old one abruptly left, and thinks I did a great job, especially under the circumstances. She’s also taking on more responsibilities and not leaving me hanging.
    Bad thing – my husband found out a new hire for his department, with 7 years less experience, will be making slightly more than him, and his university doesn’t really do raises (claming budget woes, there was a salary cut a couple years ago, etc). He’s really upset by this but let me offer you some relationship advice, unless your spouse/SO/friend/etc. ASKS you for help, just sympathize – we got into an argument because he thought I wasn’t supporting him. Oy. (That part of it is more for the weekend thread though!)

  20. Greg NY*

    In comment sections, a lot of my fellow commenters have talked about “respecting hierarchy”. Is that really still a thing in modern organizations? I had thought that in organizations that aren’t dysfunctional in some way, people in charge are managers, not “bosses”, those that report to them are essential members of the team rather than “employees” or “help”, and the role of those in charge are to facilitate the operations of the team or organization, not to boss people around while enjoying a cushy job. I have always thought that you treat someone you report to like any other colleague: with respect and courtesy, but you challenge them when you have an idea or process improvement and actually act as though you are an important member of the team rather than just there to do their grunt work. With regard to more than a distinct minority of organizations, am I wrong? I have never come across that issue in any of the three organizations I have worked in.

    1. Overeducated*

      I think this varies a lot by organization. Where I work, we actually use the phrase “chain of command” to describe it, so…yeah, hierarchy is definitely still a thing. Yes, good managers (like mine) do treat us with respect and courtesy, and we are encouraged to bring ideas and process improvement to our managers and be taken seriously, since we know the content of our day to day work best. But the managers are the ones with responsibilities for hiring, performance evaluation, promotion, firing, and advocating for overall department directions and needs, so yeah, we are not equals, and I’m lucky to be part of a union to mediate issues when they come up. Managers also have the final decision-making authority within departments/programs because a) having that authority is actually, literally, a big part of their job description, b) they’re the ones who interface with leadership higher up, and c) they’re the ones who get in trouble if it goes wrong. In some cases they take on actual legal and financial risks attached to making those decisions, so good managers take those responsibilities very, very seriously. I think the important thing is that they show respect to employees as people and professionals, and that their decisions are justified and not arbitrary, not that it actually becomes a democracy.

      I feel like you might be talking about something else here – not how the work gets done and how decisions get made, but whether managers show personal respect to employees and value their contributions? Or the conversations that sometimes come up where people say “that would be rude coming from a peer/subordinate, but from a manager it’s ok because their time is more valuable”?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, respecting hierarchy goes into a whole bunch of things.

        A cohort got fired one time when she said she could do a better job than the boss was doing. While the statement was probably true, you just can’t say that out loud.

        But there is also the matter of not skipping steps on the ladder. If you have a problem with your boss you can’t really run to your grandboss/HR and complain. Most of the time you should try to work it out first.

        When the higher ups speak in a definitive manner, it’s really not a good idea to make waves. “Everyone will report for work at 8 am sharp no excuses.” The firmness of the statement indicates that the boss has made a final decision and no further discussion should take place. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. If the new rule is too stringent and too much of a burden then it’s time to job hunt.

    2. Addie Bundren*

      I don’t at all feel that when I acknowledge that my higher-ups have more say / final say in certain areas that they are “boss[ing] people around while enjoying a cushy job.” I would say that assuming that is the case is going to cause more dysfunction than not.

    3. CheeryO*

      I feel like you can respect hierarchy while also having a good, productive relationship with your bosses. My boss listens to us and very obviously respects our opinions, but at the end of the day, if there is a disagreement, we’re going with his preference. Same goes for his relationship with his boss, and his with his boss. It’s just the way it is, and no one really has an issue with it 99% of the time. We’re state gov, so that might explain the more hierarchical structure.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve found ‘respecting the hierarchy’ generally means acknowledging that the folks in charge have the right to tell you to do things even if you, personally, don’t think they’re the best way of doing something. In a functional workspace, it should absolutely be appropriate to question or challenge a process or system, but if someone higher up says ‘I have heard your concerns and viewpoint, but we are going to continue to shave the llamas on Wednesday’ then you continue to shave the llamas on Wednesday, even if you think it’s more efficient to shave the llamas on Tuesday.

      1. LKW*

        And of course, document your concerns about changing the llama shaving schedule and the potential ripple effect but in a way that points out the risk and potential impact while acknowledging that the decision is higher up the hierarchy and you’ll abide by that decision.

        It can be a bit of a tightrope, but we all have to walk it.

    5. SWOinRecovery*

      I think that in today’s workplace, respect should be mutual and everyone should feel like an important part of the team. However, respecting hierarchy means that you act in a manner that takes into account the difference between your position in an organization and others. Specifically, especially in busy orgs, you’re unlikely to have as much information regarding work as the higher ups will, like potential yet uncertain reorganization, or confidential personnel actions. Respecting hierarchy means that when you pitch an idea or process improvement to your manager, you understand that their decision might take information like that into account and don’t push back hard if they reject your idea on those grounds.

      Similarly, there are instances when people higher up simply don’t have lots of time to give every individual. In these circumstances, I see “respecting hierarchy” as ensuring that I’m efficient in my interaction with a superior so that my peers can also have time to make their requests/get decisions. It also sometimes means refraining from asking why or being argumentative to an assignment. You don’t need to always be a “yes man”, but if your manager states that they don’t have power to change the assignment or time to explain the reasoning (and you clearly understand how to complete the task) then don’t waste people’s time by arguing for something else.

    6. Maya Elena*

      There is a culture of standardized employee respect and recognition in large corporations – which I like for the most part, but am not deceived about the existence and general desire to have “the distinction of rank preserved” – unless project efficiency or personal interest requires me to occasionally forget it.

      I think implicit in “thank you for all your hard work on this” and other such statements is “your role is done, it is out of your hands, your are a minion and not a leader.” And that’s fine …. But that’s how it is.
      Only if the manager leta you take on real responsibility, give high stakes presentations, meaningful authority- only then are the boundaries of rank really being blurred.

    7. Lora*

      It varies from department to department within an organization, in addition to varying from organization to organization.

      At LastJob, some departments were fairly egalitarian and others were extremely hierarchical. The hierarchy was not subtle or ambiguous in the hierarchical departments: the ones that ran on hierarchy liked yes-men, and if you ever raised a hint of a whisper of a challenge that perhaps maybe the manager in question was not in full possession of all the relevant information to be making that conclusion, GOD HELP YOU. Especially if you were a woman or not white or not straight. Other departments did not suffer from that problem.

      At CurrentJob there is hierarchy but it is more subtle. You WILL present information in the manner that your hierarchy wants it to be presented (right down to the font color and background pictures on the title slide), after it has been duly passed through and approved by all the hierarchy under them. You have to be extremely respectful of their time and meetings are pre-scheduled by secretaries several months in advance. That said, you can politely and professionally disagree and argue back; it just might not get you anywhere and in practice you will have to let their crummy idea fail on its own before they will accept that you were right all along. But they don’t actually punish you for saying, “I think the consequences of that decision would be bad, and here is why” or even “I did tell you so”. However, in instances of particularly bad news to deliver, you are supposed to stay in your lane even if you know you are right: for example, one group is going to run headfirst into a regulatory nightmare. I know this, other people know this, but it is Legal and QA’s job to deliver the bad news, and I am to stick to my part of it (“No, we cannot do the thing because water consumption / equipment requirements / chemistry”) and let the other people do their job.

    8. Ender Wiggin*

      I think you have a very different view of “respecting heirarchy” than I do. Respecting heirarchy does not mean working ina dysfunctional organisation where people boss their reports around while enjoying a cushy job.

      It seems you have a pretty jaundiced view of authority.

    9. Phoenix Programmer*

      I always took the term to mean go through the chain of command. Don’t just skip to the coo when your boss upsets you without talking to your boss first.

      Don’t go over your bosses head lightly. If you are going over their head it should be about egregious items harrasment, bullying, fraud, etc. Not that your boss quashed your process on the TPS report.

    10. Bea*

      I hear it was a “thing” at my current job prior to our CEO taking over.

      Our owner visited and he was fast to tell me to feel free to chat with him and that he’s friendly etc. Then mentioned that prior people were told to not talk to him…as if they were trying to keep underlings from cozying up to the big guy. I hear he’s fantastic at rewarding good employees so they didn’t want him involved and ruining their spot in his high ranking options.

      I laughed because whereas I have respect for the executives, I’ll talk to anyone and everyone without fear or reserve.

  21. Kramerica Industries*

    I’ve been offered a job in a new city that I am *probably* moving to. 3 weeks ago, my husband was in the process of negotiating for a job in a city 2 hours away from where we currently live. Since it looked like we’d be moving, I started looking for jobs for myself. I saw one that fit my qualifications really well and applied. Ideally, I’d apply after my husband had his official offer in writing, but since I’m in a bit of a niche market, I didn’t want to let this opportunity pass.

    Fast forward to now. The company has contacted me to say that they would like to proceed with me, but they would like to know when I can start. Problem is, I’m not sure. Although my husband is in the negotiation process, there’s still a chance that for whatever reason, they could decide not to extend an official offer. If he doesn’t get the job, we would not move since I’m happily employed in our current city. He has tried to push his prospective company for an offer, but HR says that the hiring manager has been away at conferences. Any suggestions on how to navigate this?

    1. Reba*

      Ask them if there is flexibility with their timeline, and explain that your household is coordinating multiple job processes, and say you hope to know very soon. I don’t know if you are comfortable talking about family/relationships with the potential new job people, but at this point they already know you’d be moving there–they ought to understand that there are complicated moving parts to be arranged. With reasonable people asking for time is not like a black mark on your candidacy. Good luck!

    2. nonymous*

      In addition to explaining your two body problem, try to guesstimate what time frame you would be okay with as the leading spouse. For example, it might be reasonable for you to start in new job/city – living in temporary accommodations – shortly after husband has the offer in hand, but he wouldn’t start his new position a few weeks later.

      The way I’ve seen this work successfully is that Leading spouse goes out and starts new job, living in temp accommodations. They use time after work to scope neighborhoods and research where to live. Trailing spouse comes out on a weekend for whirlwind house touring (optional). Trailing spouse goes home and gets started on packing. A couple weeks after job starts, Leading spouse uses a long weekend to go to Old City to help with final packing/coordinating movers. Monday both spouses are in New City, but Trailing spouse starts work a week later and takes lead on unpacking.

    3. LurkieLoo*

      Would you be able to work from home or telecommute at all in the short term? 2 hours away is not great, but probably ok a couple times a week while things get settled.

      I would probably give them a timeline of between 2 and 4 weeks longer than the notice you want to give. So if you’d give 2 weeks notice you could say you can start in 4 weeks (or 6). That buys you a week or two for your husband’s new employer to get their act together before you actually give notice.

      I’d probably explain the logistics and challenges to them. If you can get an idea of how soon they really need you there, that would be helpful.

  22. BH90210 Fan*

    Decorating your office… Ideas and suggestions

    I started a new job, part-time 4-days a week. I have an office and don’t office share.
    – My walls are completely bare and the paint is fugly – drab and boring.
    – I have a HUGE, magnetic white board on one wall. I don’t usually it except to ‘park’ ideas for later work.

    I haven’t decorated an office – ever. Most of my offices came pre-decorated with not so great artwork and I haven’t really paid attention. Really, I’ve never stayed anywhere long enough (thanks to our respective military lives) to decorate.

    Any ideas on how to visually reduce the size of the white board? Any cool magnetic decorating ideas? Pinterest is a bit overwhelming and I don’t know where to start. You can give me a link to research if that’s easier.

    Any ideas on how to cover up the drab paint job? Online stores for posters or artwork? I have personal artwork, but I don’t want to take it to my office.

    Thank you!

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      At teacher supply stores (or maybe craft stores?) you can get magnetic borders for your whiteboard. I use them to break up my whiteboard and make sections.

      If you’re not allowed to paint, can you use command hooks to hang up artwork? You might be able to find some inexpensive stuff at IKEA or even goodwill.

    2. PBH*

      Contact paper or that wallpaper that removes, which is essentially, contact paper. Maybe you can make a border for it using that. TJ Maxx or Ross for a framed pic for another wall that isn’t expensive. I like to have a succulent in my office for a little more life and a lamp for when I don’t want to deal with the harsh overhead lights.

    3. Dorothy Zbornak*

      If there are any posters or prints you like, you could pick up a few of them and use them to cover the whiteboard with clip magnets or something. I like Etsy for prints.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      (I would so section off part of the white board and doodle on it, but that might be considered unprofessional in a lot of places)
      The last time I had a big magnetic space, they had these great deconstructed Mondrian magnets – yellow and red squares, and black lines, so you could construct your on Mondrian painting. You can also buy magnetic sheets at staples and such that go through ink jet printers and print whatever type of decorative magnet you want.

    6. Rey*

      You could also look at the cute/patterned magnets that are usually at Target in office supplies. They usually have both small round and clothespin styles so that you could hang up posters or photos.

    7. Minerva McGonagall*

      For the whiteboard, washi tape could be a fun way to create boarders/sections.

      You could also use fun magnets to hang up papers/photos/postcards-anytime I travel I try to get a magnet to put on the fridge and a postcard to pin to my cork board at work. Cheap, easy, and a good conversation starter for a new employee – “Oh you’ve been to Dublin too? Did you go see the Book of Kells?”

      Command hooks are the best – I have a heavy duty one for my coat/tote bag and a little one for my calendar. Current calendar is Ireland, looking into what to pick for next year.

      I personally like using Society6 to get artwork – good variety and easy to support artists directly.

      1. BH90210 Fan*

        Thanks for the Society6 referral.

        I’m definitely going with Command hooks so I don’t have to nail anything in.

        You remind me I have hoards of postcards from our 3 yrs in Europe (I went to Dublin, no we didn’t see the Book of Kells) and will put some magnetic tape on them. Thanks for the spark!

        1. Seifer*

          Society6 now does 18×24 posters for $20! They are glossy printed instead of matte but still look good in a frame or just by themselves. But browsing Society6 when you’re not looking for a specific type of art is…. dangerous to your bank account.

    8. Anon From Here*

      No exaggeration, I have *three* calendars tacked up around my space. One was a promotional giveaway, one was a gift, and one I scrounged from the supply room.

    9. nonymous*

      I recommend a wall clock if you don’t already have one (I think IKEA has a very utilitarian one for $2). Very useful if someone has settled in for a long convo – just look at the clock and tell them you need to leave in 5 for the next meeting.

    10. EA*

      My boss is an executive, and he chose a few framed prints from Art.com for his office walls. They look really nice!

    11. Jennifer Thneed*

      Art supply stores have BIG rolls of paper in many colors and textures. My MIL used to use that to decorate her high-school classrooms, because she couldn’t paint walls, but she knew that changing up the colors made a big different to the students, and their learning was better, etc. So, these rolls are 4-5 feet wide and loooong. You could cover one or more of your walls with that.

    12. Cardamom*

      1. Whatever you do work “with” the feel of the office, not against it. For instance, if it is stark and hard lines, don’t try to make it “homey”, but instead go for a clean modern look. (However, if your walls are covered with burlap-like wall paper from the 1970s, as mine is, a warm boho look is just the thing.)
      2. To fill a lot of wall space, fabric tapestries are one option. (But, again, pick something that goes with the overall flow of things).
      3. As for the large white board, is it possible to put some furniture in front of it (like a file cabinet, or a bookcase), which might minimize its impact on the room? I also like the ideas of sectioning it off, use part as a magnetic bulletin board, etc.

  23. dorothy zbornak*

    Just found out a former co-worker used me as a referral to apply for a job at my current company. Didn’t ask or even tell me. It pisses me off because first of all, hi rudeness, and second of all, I would not vouch for him. He’s not good at his job but the hiring manager at my company knows him and collaborated with him in the past so seems to think he can do the job. In addition, I’m annoyed because I think he assumes he will get the same flexibility to work remotely that I have (I don’t think he mentioned me by name, just knowing how he operates he probably thought it was an automatic vs. earned privilege). So annoyances all around and if he gets the job I will be extremely frustrated. (At the same time, when asked about him, I tried to be as neutral as possible because what I really wanted to say I didn’t think would be very professional. Should I have said, “hey I know he helped you once with X & Y but he also failed our industry certification exam and doesn’t know the very basics, so good luck with that”?)

    1. BH90210 Fan*

      Is it weird that I read your post channeling the beautiful Golden Girl herself? :) Bea Arthur is my inner mentor AND she’s one of the few (if not the only) woman Veteran in Hollywood. Are you going to buy the new Golden Girls cereal?

      As far as your problem, no it’s not o.k. to disparage someone during a referral phone call. Neutral is best and you did that. Kudos

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Off to Google “Golden Girls cereal.” And yes, Dorothy was the best! RIP Bea Arthur.

    2. CatCat*

      You had no obligation to play it neutral here, especially because YOUR reputation may be damaged at the company if he turns out the be a disaster. “I can only speak for the time when I worked with Fergus, and my experience was that he was poor at X, Y, and Z, which I know are important skills for this role.” It’s not unprofessional to give an honest reference!

      1. BH90210 Fan*

        References, in of themselves, lack any frame of reference. They’re utterly useless steps in the hiring process.

        The assumption is that someone uses another as a reference because they 1) like that person, 2) worked well with that person, 3) doesn’t know anyone else, 4) was a direct report for that person or 5) deluded to think that this person like them, but doesn’t. So who knows why anyone chooses a reference. From there, the hiring entity must understand why this person is disparaging their potential hire with no real context. And you look unprofessional when you decide to tear someone else down, much like doing that in a job interview when they ask why you left your last job.

        You did the right thing being neutral. IF your reputation is on the line, being it’s an internal hire, you won’t be looked upon as someone who likes to tear others apart. The responsibility of hiring is on the hiring entity, not the past employers/employees/coworkers. I’ve left organizations wanting to write a letter telling the higher ups how awful it was, but they would also consider my professionalism as well.

        1. CatCat*

          Oh my gosh, it is not “tearing someone down” to give honest feedback about their work when that person has put you down as a reference (without your consent or checking with you on whether you could provide a positive reference).

          Reporting on your experience working with them and what skills they were lacking is not unprofessional. You’re way off base here.

          1. zora*

            It’s especially important to be honest if you are the internal person who is being used as a referral! In this case, the hiring manager does know Dorothy, and that she is a strong employee. If she says, “honestly, I didn’t think Fergus did X, Y and Z well. And I wouldn’t recommend him as a strong addition to Company, if it was up to me” the hiring manager is probably going to listen, because she knows more about Dorothy than Fergus at this stage. Plus, this could affect Dorothy’s reputation if it’s widely understood that she ‘referred’ Fergus for the job.

            You don’t have to go on a rant about all the things you hate about someone to give a reference. You can be specific but honest about what you felt that person was not good at, and it is obviously still up to the hiring manager to decide what to do with that information!

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I agree there is no way I would give a neutral referral for someone who did shoddy work. A neutral referral is only going to bite me in the long run as I would sound wishy-washy and it would look like I did not know enough to recognize shoddy work.

            A simple, “I can’t recommend this person” can go a long way.

            OP, do not allow others to coattail your good name. This person did not ask you to be a reference, so what happens next is not your fault. They could have asked first.

      2. zora*

        THIS!!! Go back now and tell the hiring manager that you did not feel Fergus was a good coworker! You have no responsibility to be neutral or ‘objective’ on Fergus’ behalf!

      3. Ender Wiggin*

        This. You actually had a responsibility to give an accurate but professional reference.

        It’s not too late. Contact the hiring manager and say “I was caught off guard the other day when you called for the reference, because he hadn’t actually told me he was naming me as a reference. I gave a much nicer reference than I should have but I’ve since realise that I should have been more honest.” then tell her exactly what you said above.

        1. dorothy zbornak*

          just to clarify, referral in this sense is not the same reference. essentially he used my name as someone he knows at the company who would vouch for him (I guess – we get referral bonuses). I found out this at the last minute. When asked casually about him I didn’t say much b/c I thought he wouldn’t even get this far in the process to be honest. I spoke with the hiring manager earlier and was basically told it was too late. HR just emailed me today asking about him.

          1. Darren*

            Referrals are the same as references, basically a referral is the candidate saying “this person that you know and works for you can vouch for my ability to do this role” when they then come to you and ask for your opinion you are acting as a reference and you will likely be given more weight than an external reference due to you being a known quantity to the hiring manager so they have less concerns about your honesty over someone they probably literally don’t know.

            If you really think he can’t do the job you have to let HR know your honest opinion of his abilities as soon as possible before they proceed.

          2. Ender Wiggin*

            The key thing here is that you vouched for him. If they hire him and he’s awful then that will affect your reputation so I really think you need to contact them to set the record straight.

    3. A Suggestion*

      Is there a way to do it in a “crap sandwich” way so that it’s not entirely negative? Can you find one strength about Old Coworker to point out? “Although John was great at ____, he is also horrible at ____ and had issues with ____. For these reasons, I have to politely disagree and advise that we consider other candidates.”

    4. Binky*

      I don’t see why professional would equal playing down the applicant’s weaknesses. I’d be as emotionally neutral as possible, but you should absolutely tell your current company that the candidate not only lacks certification but has failed the exam (if that certification is necessary for the position), and then give a few concrete examples of things he doesn’t know.

      Given the hiring manager’s prior involvement with him, I’d couch it as “I know you’ve had positive experiences with [candidate] while doing X tasks, but his knowledge of [everything else he’s supposed to be doing] is not as strong. If you hire him, I’d expect you’ll need to put a lot of time into training him on [these specific] tasks.”

    5. LKW*

      I wouldn’t advise you to disparage someone but you’re allowed to put a really firm boundary around it as others have advised.

      You’re also allowed to say “Wow, he put me down as a reference? I don’t feel comfortable with that, he didn’t ask me directly and I don’t think I can really speak to his strengths.”

    6. Arjay*

      The terminology can be confusing, but some processes ask if you know anyone who already works at the company and consider that a “referral.” He may nor have been listing your name as a true reference.

      1. dorothy zbornak*

        so he listed me as a referral since I already work at the company and we had previously worked together and I thought he deserved a fair shot since everyone else seemed to think he was a strong candidate. then I got an email from HR asking me to vouch for him so I called the hiring manager and told her he never asked me to be a referral and I don’t feel comfortable vouching for him and I was essentially told it was too late. they are moving forward anyway.

        1. valentine*

          It may be that everyone thought he was strong because they lacked your knowledge, or they knew him to be as you say, but didn’t want to be out of step, as you didn’t. In future, I hope you’ll share what you know and give yourself and your colleagues the chance to avoid the frustration of a frightful fit.

  24. Labradoodle Daddy*

    I’m looking to find a job closer to where I live (right now I live in Greenwich and work in NYC). I work 7:30-4:00, and can’t get any more time off or else I will lose my job (whether I get the flu or whatever). In order to find a job closer to where I live, I will need to eventually interview there in person. Problem is, I lose my current job if I do this (and the train schedule makes it impossible NOT to take time off).

    What the hell do I do? I feel really trapped and hopeless.

        1. Anona*

          Then you have to weigh how likely it is that you’d get the new job that you’re interviewing for, and only move forward if you’re confident in your chances for the new job.
          I’d think about/develop a plan for what you’d do if you didn’t get that job and were released from your old job, since that’s a realistic possibility.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            I’ve had that happen a couple times already, unfortunately. Getting to final rounds of interviews only to not get the job.

            1. Anona*

              Yeah, applying for jobs is tough! I’ve had it happen too. If you really can’t wait until you have additional time off, it’s kinda a matter of taking a chance, but having a backup plan for what to do if it doesn’t work. Except the worst, hope for the best.

              1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                I’m also kind of frustrated because right now my future is either 1. feel seriously depressed and trapped at my current job (I just got back from a week of FMLA leave and I can honestly say I’m back to the miserable place I was at before I left) or 2. be fired for going to another interview (that may not pan out). Is there any advice anyone can give me beyond “sucks, hope for the best!”?

                Not being cynical, just want to believe there’s a light at the end of the tunnel….

        2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I know Alison would probably (vehemently) disagree, but if I was in your position I’d seriously consider leaving this job and putting all my efforts into job hunting full time. You won’t get any time off for 8 months?? Including no sick time?! That is so patently unreasonable, and frankly I’m afraid you’ll lose the job anyway – we’re heading into flu season and almost every person I work with has been out sick at least a half a day in the past two months. This doesn’t seem to be a very secure job for you right now AND it’s logistically impossible for you to search in your desired geographical area, so I’d suggest you seriously think about just cutting your losses.

          1. Cardamom*

            I agree with this. If all it takes is the flu to lose your job, then it might make sense to strategically decide when to start looking instead of leaving it up to happenstance. On the other hand, if you wait to get let go for getting the flu, would you at least be eligible for unemployment that way?

    3. Llellayena*

      Can you indicate that you are available in person after certain hours that let you get all the way home or that you can be more flexible by Skype (pop into a library to Skype at 4:15 or over lunch)? The “my job doesn’t know I’m looking and I can’t take the time off” might help with that too. Also, does your available time off reset with the new year? Some of the positions may not be interviewing until then so you might be ok. My understanding from this site is that if the company is good and they want you, they’ll accommodate your schedule. Good luck!

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I wouldn’t be able to get to the Stamford/GRE area until at least 5:30 (I take the earliest train I can get out of GCT after I clock out). Because I’m applying for EA positions, very few companies have wanted to put that amount of effort in for a low level job.

        1. Lyka*

          Maybe you could consider applying to a new job in NYC for now? Since Current Job wouldn’t allow time off until 8 months from now, a CT job search is really not tenable. But you (presumably) don’t have an exact timeline for getting a job in CT, you’re just eager to work closer to home. A different NYC job may allow you the chance to have a change of scenery, get out of the toxicity of Current Job, and you’d be in about the same position if you started taking time off to interview in CT in 6 months to a year.

          NYC must be brimming with EA or EA-style positions, even at the contract/temp level, so you could simply consider a stopgap measure between your current heinous employer and your dream of work in CT.

          Good luck!!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I know some people have had good luck in asking for after hours interviews. Just explain that you are on company payroll and you do not feel right about taking paid leave to job hunt. You can offer to Skype before or after work or perhaps interview on a Saturday.

      A good company will be impressed with your ethics and may accommodate you.

    5. caryatis*

      If you’ve used up so much leave at your current job that you’ll be fired if you take more, what are the chances you’ll be able to keep another job? Might be time for a leave of absence to deal with whatever issues are causing you to be unable to make it to work.

        1. Thursday Next*

          I’m so sorry. This is terrible all around.

          Maybe the offer of Skype for prelim rounds, then as NSNR suggests, asking for an after hours final interview, since you’re “committed to fulfilling the responsibilities at current position, which requires you to be physically present”?

      1. Hamburke*

        Remote assistants are very popular and there are agencies. Any chance you’d be able to look into those?

    8. valentine*

      Can you work weekends instead of two (sometimes different) weekdays? If they needed you to be consistent, rotate them so if you can’t interview this Monday, you can next Monday.

  25. Jack Be Nimble*

    Vent time!

    I have spoken to so many job candidates lately, and it’s always the most unproductive conversation. I can’t connect them to the hiring manager, I can’t answer any questions that aren’t already answered in the job description, I can’t give them a sense of timeline or competitiveness of the other candidates. They’re calling to follow up and ask about seventeen “just one more question(s)!!” and there’s nothing I can tell them because I don’t have any information to share. We waste 15 minutes of each other’s time and then hang up.

    Candidates: please don’t call to follow up. You’ll get ahold (maybe) of the lowest-ranked person on the team and they won’t be able to tell you anything. Please.

    1. Four lights*

      Yikes. Maybe you can work with your boss to come up with a script.

      Like “I can only answer questions about X Y and Z. If your question doesn’ t relate to that you have to do A.”

      “As I said, I can’t answer a question like that and you’ll have to do A. If you don’t have any questions I can answer then it sounds like we should end this phone call.”

      1. Four lights*

        And you can just broken record them so it doesn’t feel like a conversation they can wheedle information from you. “Unfortunately, I can’t answer that.” ad naseum

    2. Trixie*

      I know this vent! I was in a similar position (recruiting) and would end up with candidate calls. If they had actually applied (using caller ID or name to check our records), I send a generic email with resume under review, hiring manager will be in touch if selected to move on, etc.

      We were very good about notifying candidates when appropriate but otherwise, we were instructed not to spend time returning calls. It too often lead to phone tag and false sense of encouragement that things were actually moving forward. I was pleasant about it but pretty much stuck to script from emails.

  26. Amber Rose*

    We’re ramping up for Christmas. Boxes of stuff arrive constantly, the party is booked, the dates are set. I ordered cards. My boss is the entertainment again this year. Prepare for horror stories. :C

    I have to do my audit in two weeks and I’m scared. It’s been two years, what if I forgot how. What if all 17 people I have to interview stare silently at me. What if we fail. This is a lot of anxiety. It sucks.

      1. Amber Rose*

        When I started they hired a company to do DJ’ing and party games. Now the DJ is a dude with an iphone and my boss picks the party games.

        They are horrifying.

        Last year, for example, we all stood in a circle and one game was “repeat the thing I just said without laughing” but it was all incredibly like, uncomfortable explicit awkward things. A game i’d be maybe OK with around close friends but definitely not around coworkers.

        1. Drop Bear*

          OMG – horrifying sounds like an understatement!!
          I don’t what your audit is, so this advice may be way off base, but can you look over the one you did 2 years ago? Might help you be less anxious if you remind yourself how you did it successfully before.

  27. Penelope*

    Is one year’s experience worth anything at all?

    I’m feeling really crushed at the moment because I just found out my current (fixed term) contract isn’t going to get renewed. I had a career change a while ago and this is my first job in this area (I’ve had 5 years experience in a different but sort of related area).

    It’s really frustrating because I was starting to get a feel for the job and this field. Going for the career change was a huge decision for me and I was thrilled when I got this job (took a massive pay cut since I’m entry level again), and now I feel like I’m back to square one.

    When my contract is up I’ll have 1.5years (relevant) experience on my resume, but it feels like anything under 3 years isn’t even worth mentioning. It’s so frustrating. Not to mention my contract is expiring at the end of the year and hiring slows down so much during the holiday season.

    1. Holly*

      > it feels like anything under 3 years isn’t even worth mentioning.

      That is absolutely not true. If it was 6 months, maybe, but 1.5 years is enough to learn something but still be entry level.

      1. Cardamom*

        Yes, this. I pretty much don’t even considering interviewing anyone with zero experience. But one year, that definitely gets your foot in the door.

    3. Four lights*

      Definitely worth mentioning. I’m not sure what you do, but presumably you know applicable computer programs, terminology, tasks, government departments/regulations…

      Think about what you didn’t know when you started vs. now. It’s definitely worth mentioning.

    4. Nita*

      Sure it is! I once had a four-month job and it’s totally on my resume as I picked up a ton of experience there. It was such a short term for very good reasons (the location was a much worse fit for me than I realized), but while I was there, I was responsible for a little bit of everything as it’s a small business, got a feel for working with clients and on real-life deadlines, and a lot of other things. A year is a lot more than four months, so unless they had you doing the same thing over and over, you must have learned plenty of things worth mentioning.

    5. Anonysand*

      Agreeing with the others here- over one year of experience is absolutely good enough to mention! I would frame it this way: if you were good enough to get hired into a career-change job without a ton of experience, you will definitely be able to get hired again in that field with that much more! And even if it’s another entry-level opportunity, you’ll be worlds ahead of the other applicants. For some context: I got hired at my new job, which was a complete and total career change, with about 6 months of experience doing the actual job work through a volunteer organization. Keep on going and don’t give up!

  28. Bekx*

    We have our floor’s Halloween party next week. I’m new to the company but apparently people get super into it. Our CMO wore a cheerleader outfit and a full on cinderella ballroom gown once.

    I’m going as hipster Ariel. Would this shirt be inappropriate to wear to work? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y4MLTKP/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    My other new coworker and I were wondering if it’s just a bit too…um, focused. But I feel like a purple t-shirt (my alternative) is just meh.

    1. CheeryO*

      Omg, are you me? I’m doing Ariel this year (not at work, though, we don’t dress up) and decided against the shell top because it feels a little awkward, but I’m also kind of a prude. I think you could get away with it, it just depends on your comfort level. I’ve also seen variations where people wrap purple fabric around a top more like a bandeau, which feels less “these are my boobs.”

      I did hipster Ariel in college and did teal skinny jeans, a purple flannel, and made my own shirt that said something about being under the sea before it was cool (in meme font, obv).

      1. Bekx*

        Yeah I’m kind of a prude too. My coworker agreed with me, my fiance completely disagrees and thinks no one is going to be looking at my boobs. Okay, honey. eyeroll.

        I love the meme shirt though, great idea!

    2. EnfysNest*

      I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing something like that to work. But, if I may offer an alternative: Hot Topic has a really cute Little Mermaid shirt from the “Her Universe” line right now for that same price that would be better for an office environment – it’s all purple with seashells on it. It’s an off-shoulder design, so you still might want a tank top or something under it, but I think you’d be better off with something that has less “focus”, as you put it. I’ll reply again with the link.

        1. Bekx*

          Ahhh that’s so cute! I actually already bought the shirt (it wasn’t until after that I thought about it) but dangit this is perfect. I’ll see if my local hot topic has it since it won’t arrive at home in time

          1. JLCBL*

            Sorry, I replied with a different link because this one didn’t work for me (not sure why). When it refreshed I saw you had seen it so I guess I am writing an extra comment to say you can disregard my extra comment…. :/

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      No way, I think it’s great!

      I know you’re going for the shells, but I am heavily considering getting the starfish one for myself, it’s so cute!

  29. Nervous Accountant*

    So, deadline this week. A lot of clients called in upset. I took a few calls, my mgr took a few calls. by the time the 5th or 6th call came around, I asked if the other two mgrs left could take it. One said no cz he was busy wiht something else, so the other one was left….. he’s the one I’ve talked about here before.. Anyway, so his thing is that he frequently refuses to do this stuff saying “well I’m busy doing this.” which leaves me and others to pick up the slack on doing those things PLUS whatever he does. I try to point this out before and we literally could go in circles all day long saying the exact same thing. Anyway, I had to practically beg him to take it and he did.

    I had two options–take the call, and be resentful that I get dumped on and stew that he never does this work OR approach him and ask nicely (borderline beg) if he can take this one as a favor, and…do my own work. I took the second option. It was harder, but better off in the long run.

    And just so that there’s no confusion–he is supposed to be doing these things. My mgr (who he technically reports to) has communicated this very clearly. He does it for a while but then starts pushing back against it. Everyone at this level is supposed to do A B C D E. He only does A, while the rest of us do all.

    The conversation went like this.

    “Can you please take this call? I’ve taken a few today and I’m backed up with _.”
    “I can’t take the call, I’m doing the exact same thing.”

    so…yeah. He took the call, I was free to do my work, and I got to go home at 9 instead of 10!

    1. Boredatwork*

      Every story you tell just continues to confirm that accountants make the worst managers. IDK why your boss doesn’t have a serious talk to (every story you’ve told, so, so many) and say – no more bad behavior – then TERMINATE the rotten apples.

      what would happen if you just forwarded the call? I would prob at this point just grimace, and then pull a full blown office space – yeeeeeeh I’m gonna need you to take that call. Thanks…

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        General office culture here is that no one here just randomly forwards a call, everyone notifies someone before forwarding. They could be otp w someone else, away from their desk etc.

        My manager himself is actually really great and has strengths in a lot of areas. I know this isn’t the best example lol. That one that I had to beg, it’s very very obvious he likes the acc work but hates the Mgmt stuff.. but that’s a decision out of mine and my mgrs hands.

        1. Boredatwork*

          Oh I didn’t mean just randomly forward the call – that’s unfair to the client. I meant tell “steven” that client X is calling at 1pm, forward the call if necessary, make him be the one to let it go to voicemail.

          Begging a co-irker to do work sounds so tedious.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Oh on the other point about termination — a lot of the toxic people I’ve talked about in the past end up leaving on their own. Generally people get a talking to, a write up, and let go. It takes a lot to get fired.

        1. Boredatwork*

          This is a fun topic of conversation between me and my significant other. He is a senior manager and has terminated more than one employee. They can’t handle dead weight when everyone works 60-70 hours a week, all year long.

          I’m in industry – we recently “coached” someone out, but no one ever gets fired. We have two people who are literal dead weight but since they’ve been here for decades, here they sha’ll stay until they retire.

    2. valentine*

      The begging sounds like taking calls is primarily your job. If not, what happens if you don’t answer? What if you only take a decent amount of calls and go home at a decent hour? How late does Steven stay?

  30. Overeducated*

    I’ve hit that mid-career point where some people stay until retirement, and some people continue to rise up to a high level…and I’m just not sure which direction I want to go! I could imagine a lateral transfer that could make me really happy in the long term (in a better/cheaper location, doing more field-based work that I like, etc). On the other hand, I could also imagine feeling really stuck if I don’t keep moving and trying to make a bigger difference, which would probably mean staying in my high COL city where I’ll always have a long commute due to salary caps, and working in the same headquarters office taking more managerial responsibility. There’s also the possibility of higher level jobs in different locations, but those are few, far between, and sort of like winning the lottery.

    If and when you hit this point, how did you figure out which way to aim? Or how did you manage to keep multiple doors open?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      It sounds like you are comfortable where you’re at, but ready for a move and don’t know which direction to go. The beautiful part of this situation is that you can view each and every opportunity on it’s own. You don’t have to pick a direction, just explore each direction as options come up.
      Don’t rush.

        1. square toes*

          Yep, I’m pretty much in the same place. One trick can be to apply to different jobs, and see how it feels. The good part is that you’re not desperate, so you can explore different options without having to pick one first.

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      I am in the same boat as you. What freaks me out is I hit here young, 30, so I worried about stagnating. I was panicking about 3 years into this role but I’ve realized that I have the luxury of browsing jobs and not applying while I am happy here. Meanwhile I am focusing on improving soft skills.

      If the right leaders come along in 5 years maybe I will apply to higher management then but I also am trying not to have too much lifestyle inflation making me dependent on making this much money.

  31. Alternative Person*

    I think I reached the tipping point at my main job this week. They’ve cracked down on time-card padding (which needed badly to happen) but cut out all the designations for above-admin-level, but not client facing work so I can’t claim an appropriate rate for such work.

    I suggested a mini-project to my manager this week, which he liked, but didn’t like the fact I would only do it if I was paid a decent rate for it, rather than minimum wage (which we get for admin hours). I said (basically) that it’s a skilled task that’s worth more than minimum but he (and upper management) are not budging on it. It’s probably going to get assigned to someone else, if it happens at all.

    He’s also parred my client-facing schedule to the minimum (it’s not a complete disaster as I have some loyal clients) and so far seems to be protecting the ‘super’ part timer who was hours padding in the first place.

    I was going to hold on my current schedule till my contract runs out, but now, I’m going to semi-aggressively pursue hours at the place I’m contracting at for one day a week once the scheduling cycle comes around again (if they’ll have me).

  32. KatieKate*

    There is a chance I am going to get a phone offer today (ahhhhh). If I do get the call, I’m going to do my best to move the conversation to email for negotiations because I haven’t seen any pay or benefit info yet, and because my current job has GREAT benefits it would really make a difference to me.

    My actual question: I’m still early in my career (4 years) and at my current position for just over two years. How long of notice should I give? I love my team, but this is a relatively slow time of year for me so there’s nothing immediate that’s going to get dropped if/when I leave. Two weeks seems too low, but… there’s not a lot going on.

    1. Anon Librarian*

      Two weeks is standard. If you can give more though (and you don’t think you’d be pushed out) than give more. It’s always gracious. But also consider if you want a break between jobs or if the other job has a firm start date.

    2. ZSD*

      I think two weeks is fine. It’s still considered standard, and particularly when your work is slow, this shouldn’t cause a big disruption for your employer.

    3. CaitlinM*

      People sometimes think that your notice time is supposed to give the company time to replace you. In the US, at least, that’s not the case. It’s to give you and the company time to wrap-up your work. Two weeks is adequate, especially for someone early in their career.

  33. Anon for this*

    I am responsible for overseeing the work of a contractor. This guy is employed by another company and works full-time at my company. He does a great job and we depend on him a lot.

    He recently had an unexpected family emergency and has been gone for over two months. His company is contractually obligated to provide a substitute when he’s absent, which is not too bad for covering a sick day or week of vacation, but it’s been really hard on them to cover for this long. Three other people have taken turns covering his shifts. They all live over an hour away because this isn’t their normal location, and two of them (one of whom is the account manager) are salaried employees and working unpaid extra hours to cover these shifts. They’ve worked really hard and done a great job at keeping up with the regular guy’s responsibilities. Their contract is coming up for renewal soon, so they are extra motivated to keep us happy (my company is a very large account).

    The regular guy is coming back next week, and I would like to thank the people who covered for him while he was gone, but I’m not sure if it’s proper. My company is paying them a lot of money, and that includes payment for a full-time worker, so they were really just complying with the contract. I’m not sure it’s appropriate for me to thank them for complying with the terms of the contract. But I also know that each of them made personal sacrifices to continue to provide excellent service to my company under difficult conditions, and I really am grateful. I won’t be seeing them much anymore since the new guy is coming back, so any thanks will probably have to be by e-mail. Is it ok to send them a note thanking them for doing a great job covering for the regular guy for the last couple of months?

    2. ACDC*

      I absolutely think it is okay, and I think it’s wonderful that you want to show your appreciation! As someone who is a contractor employed by another company, this would certainly not be uncommon for the type of work we do, and would honestly be really appreciated on the receiving end!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This seems like a variation on the question of thanking a waiter/waitress for bringing over food. Yes, thank them. Yes, it’s their job, but they have gone through a 100 crappy little things that they will never tell you about to make the work come together. Not all of our job satisfaction comes from our paychecks, it also comes from how we are treated/recognized.

    4. Cosette*

      Maybe check with your contracting office, if you have one. In the fed govt we have to be very careful with our interactions with contractors.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m afraid of… I am at a federal government-owned company. We have so many rules relating to contractors, I don’t want to speak out of turn or look like I am speaking for the company when I am not authorized. But I don’t want these people to think I take them for granted, either.

  34. Avid reader infrequent commenter*

    I need advice (and maybe just general, emotional support!) about changing industries. I’m moving several states over within the next 3-6 months, and I’ll be leaving the industry I love. I’ve been around aviation my entire life, I’ve worked in commercial aviation since I graduated high school and used my part time gig here at the time to pay for university, then transferred to a full time job at HDQ in a position that has really allowed me to excel.

    But for a myriad of reasons, I can’t avoid this move, and the area we’re moving to will mean that my time in the industry is 99.9% likely to come to an end. I know what type of work I enjoy, and I know what I’m good at, and both are transferable/found in all industries. The thing is, what makes me good at what I do here, in my opinion, is that I’m passionate about the industry and have taken the time to learn and understand not just where I fit in but how the whole operation works. I find it fascinating and interesting and motivating, both the positives and negatives. It’s an entry level job, but one that accumulates a lot of subject matter expertise as you get into it. I get to solve puzzles, answer questions, and learn new things all day long, and I absolutely love it. I love what I do, I know I’m a huge resource to thousands of our employees, and I genuinely enjoy being in this industry and continuing to learn about the entire operation.

    I suppose what I’m looking for is reassurance that I can find this in another industry. I know I can, I just need to hear it. Those of you who enjoy not just what you do, but also the business you’re in — tell me how you found yourself there. Tell me how you learned the organization and the business, beyond just your job. Tell me what you find interesting and compelling, and why I should take a closer look!

  35. Anon Librarian*

    I am currently looking for a new position in Special Collections Librarianship (a super narrow, super competitive field). I have been checking Chronicle of Higher Ed, SAA, RBMS, and ALA job boards.

    Is there anywhere else, fellow librarians of AskAManager, that I should be looking? I’m flexible on geography, but I really want to stay in Special Collections work.

    2. bb-great*

      The ArchivesGig blog might be worth keeping tabs on, they tend to post archives-adjacent stuff like Special Collections as well.

    4. Bibrarian*

      How about MLA? Some of the bigger academic medical/health sciences libraries have special collections positions come through every now and then

  36. Mimmy*

    Just looking for a gut check: When your supervisor and the director have differing views on how things should run

    I’ve always found my job to be somewhat dysfunctional – not so much toxic, just disorganized. Lately, however, they made significant changes to the daily schedules (I work in a state-run instructional facility focused on voc rehab), and I think the dysfunction has gone up a few notches, many of us are miserable, and at least one of my coworkers has no clue what her role will be long-term.

    The problem: My direct supervisor, who oversees the instructional program, and the center director have differing viewpoints. My supervisor HATES the new schedule and has attempted to get him to change it back. She’s about to go on a month-long medical leave and I think she’s really worried that the director will undermine her while she’s gone.

    The kicker: The schedule change was the idea of an instructor who suddenly left a week ago (he’s been….a problem). I asked my supervisor if the schedule will go back to what it was now that he’s gone, and she doesn’t think so.

    I know that the issues between my supervisor and director are not my concern, but it really does make for a very unpleasant working environment. I’m not holding out hope that things will improve in the month that my supervisor is gone–it could get worse when she comes back.

    I am looking to get out, but in the meantime, any tips on dealing with this would be appreciated. It’s a team-oriented environment by necessity, so I can’t really just “keep my head down”.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What I have done with situations like this is do whatever the person in charge says. If the person in charge changes then I shift. When the person in charge changes back to the previous person, then I shifted back to previous habits.

      It’s a crappy way to have to work. I am sorry you are having to deal with this.

      Once in a while I have gotten away with saying something like this. “I see big boss prefers A and you prefer B. I have no preference, it does not matter which one I do. I am willing to do either one. However, it’s a lot of pressure on me/us if one boss wants A and the other boss wants B. I just want to do a good job and be a good employee. I don’t want to get into trouble with anyone. I don’t want you mad at me and I don’t want the big boss mad at me. I just want to be a good employee. Is there a way we can find a compromise or a solution?”

      It’s a little wordy, so you kind of have to wait for a calm moment when the supervisor can actually hear what you just said. This will work sometimes. And other times I had to run through this twice before it registered.

  37. Cacti*

    I need some tips on how to handle a mouthy direct report.

    I’m an early 30’s woman working in IT for public sector and I manage a few student interns. One of the interns, “Mark”, is a young male programming student at a local university. He challenges EVERYTHING I say. Something as simple as me saying “Mark, I’ll need you to replace John’s computer with this one in my office.” will get a reply of, “That’s stupid. John’s computer is powerful enough. He doesn’t need a new one.” During Mark’s tour of the facility he made frequent remarks about how our infrastructure is set up incorrectly, and tips on how we could fix it (thin clients instead of individual terminals, etc.) When I replied that we do not have the infrastructure in place to power thin clients, nor the support structure, his response is that it was “dumb”, and we needed to consider his idea. Yesterday I asked him a question about a task I assigned him (installing new memory in a workstation) because the user called and complained about his computer not working properly since the installation. When I asked if he stagged the RAM across the DIMM slots he replied that “it didn’t matter” if he did or not, because the issue is not a result of his work. It turned out that it was.

    Mark is also frequently 15-20 minutes late every day but signs his timesheet that he is on time. I try not to be micromanage the interns time, but Mark is paid hourly on tax payer money and our job is considered “butt-in-seat”. My own boss makes comments when my full-time co-workers are not on time.

    The wrench in this is that Mark was hired on the suggestion of my own boss who knows him personally. I was put off during the interview process in which Mark seemed arrogant and flippant in his answers. When the interview was over I asked my boss if he thought we would have an issue regarding his attitude. My boss emphatically replied that no, he was a respectful young man and he just didn’t interview well because they had a personal relationship with each other due to attending the same church. My boss said we weren’t going to interview anyone else in the pool even though Mark was the only interview we conducted, and if we decided not to move forward with Mark’s application we would need to start from the square one and get all new applications. We were in desperate need of help so we hired him. I later found out that my boss personally called Mark and asked him to fill out an application.

    I haven’t brought up Mark’s issues to my boss because he hasn’t seemed to care about intern performance in the past and just tells us to work through it. Reaers, how can I correct Mark’s behavior in the moment? I don’t want to come off as “b**tchy” or emotional in my responses, but I feel disrespected on a daily basis with Mark to the point that I do not want to deal with him. My co-workers also avoid him.

    1. Holly*

      You should at very least document all of the issues you’re having with him. I don’t know how much authority over interns you’re empowered with, but it’s definitely worth having a discussion with him – or even firing him if you’re able to. All of this is extremely abnormal behavior for an intern who is supposed to be learning on the job, and it strikes me as potentially sexist behavior as well.

    2. ACDC*

      As a former mouthy intern, I didn’t even realize I was doing it until someone pointed it out to me pretty explicitly. My supervisors at internship #1 sat me down and gave me a good amount of feedback about tone and word choice. Like I said, I had no idea I was doing this and I’ve been really mindful of it ever since.

      Now, Mark seems to be a way bigger pain in the you-know-what than I ever was, so I don’t know if you will get the same reaction from a direct sit-down. I think it would be worth a conversation with your boss framed as “I’m having some issues with Mark such as X and Y. I know you and him know each other personally, so I was wondering if you had any insights on how to best approach this with him.”

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      It’s not b*tchy to tell him what you need from him. It’s not b*tchy to sit him down to explain that you need him to follow process to avoid mistakes from happened like in your example. It’s not b*tchy to be an authority figure to a student who thinks that he knows better than the company.

      He needs to wake up. I get it, especially in technology, there’s a lot of preachy culture about how you can change the world and make things more efficient and that companies are slow and clunky. But refusing to do work you think is “dumb” is not the way to go about it.

      One of the best pieces of advice I received was to do what I was told well, then people would start trusting me to bring my own ideas.

    4. Anona*

      If you’re his manager, meet with him and tell him what needs to change. It sounds like you may not have done this yet. Use specific examples. If things don’t change, in the moment address them (this is an example of what we talked about earlier, etc).
      If it keeps up, fire him if you’re allowed, or talk with your manager about it. Bring up the ways you’ve dealt with it and what’s continued, again using specific examples. If they won’t permit you to fire him, ask how to proceed next, given that xyz continues to be a problem for the organization.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Sit him down and tell him very clearly that he is there to learn, not to give opinions. Forget about being perceived as witchy. That perception is on him.
      You also need to tell your boss just what an ass Mark has been. Mark came in on his coat tails, so your boss needs to know he’s abusing the situation.

    6. LCL*

      Insisting that people who are paid hourly be at the job is not micromanaging. Find out what your institutions requirements are and adjust his time accordingly. Some places allow you to divide the hour by the quarter hour, some by ten minutes segments, etc.

      I would talk to Mark one time and explain to him that, basically, his job is to do what you tell him. And that if he has ideas on how to improve any process, to write them down in an email and you both will discuss them later when all the jobs are caught up.

      In the moment, when he mouths off, say ‘my job is to assign the work. I am assigning you this job. Your job is to do it.’ Repeat as necessary. It sounds like since he is a special hire, you won’t be able to fire him.

      1. WWF*

        +1

        I’d verbally counsel Mark once and document the issues for the record. How much longer will Mark be in your workplace? A few weeks/months? Given that your manager doesn’t want to deal with intern performance generally and he specifically selected Mark for this internship, there is no upside to you to pursuing the issues further with your manager.

    7. blackcat*

      Time card issues are a big deal in the public sector, yes? I’d discuss that with your boss and ask how he’d like you to handle it. If he’s not helpful, I’d go to HR/payroll/etc and ask them how to handle it. If you know about time card fraud and don’t do anything about that, I’d be worried about you getting in trouble.
      I’d also start documenting the issues in a journal, too.

    8. LKW*

      Definitely deal with the time card fraud -that’s an ethical problem waiting to blow up.

      As for the attitude – you can either tell him to quit it or you can turn it back on him and make him put together a business case for all of these brilliant ideas. Unless you have very specific work that he need to get done to fulfill his credits tell him that you want a business case to deliver one of his brilliant ideas. It should include a high level project plan with a timeline and approach, anticipated hours, costs and business benefits to deliver and ROI. Ask to see updates every couple of days to make sure he’s delivering. Does the table of contents include all of the things you asked? Does he understand the assignment? What’s missing from his business case? Has he started to fill in the information? Where did he get his information? How is he going to calculate the ROI? Who has he been talking to? Make it possible for him to reach out to the infrastructure guys – tell him exactly what you’re doing and what you need from them so that this guy understands that sometimes what you want is impossible with what you have.

      If he doesn’t come through – then talk to your manager -explain the wonderful opportunity you gave this guy and how he just didn’t come through. Talk to his intern program too.

    9. Parenthetically*

      “That’s stupid, he doesn’t need a new computer.”

      “Whoa, let’s pause right there. It’s never going to be inappropriate to insult the instructions you’ve been given by the person managing your work. In the future, if you have concerns, you are welcome to ask questions, but it’s absolutely not appropriate to speak that way in a professional setting.”

      Document document document document. This guy is a dumpster fire.

        1. valentine*

          “I wasn’t asking for your opinion.”Indeed. Cacti, why are you debating him instead of telling him what’s what? (This comes up a lot here and it’s mostly women indulging insubordinate men.) Cut him off, tell him to remove dumb/stupid from his vocabulary, that his role is to learn/do, that you’ll announce if he gets a vote, and that he needs to start working, not arrive, at x:00. Stop approving his fraudulent timesheets. (For your own sake, add up the cost and see if it’s a misdemeanor or a felony.) Are there tax implications on unworked hours paid? Even if you’re not allowed to manage him out (he’s not doing the work, so, rather than being minus one intern, you’ll be plus his wages and those of whoever is (re)doing his work) and the only consequence is you telling him to shape up, at least you won’t have to hear his nonsense. The more rude you feel, the better you’ll probably be doing for yourself, your business, and Mark’s professional future.I’m curious what weirdness is happening that led your supervisor not to hold Mark accountable and led Mark to be fearless even though your supervisor knows his family.

    10. WellRed*

      It’s not bitchy to address the time card fraud (or whatever it’s called in this circumstance). It’s not bitchy to also tell him to knock it off and quit being a know it all.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Time card fraud is a fire-able offense.
      I’d write him and not even ask the boss about writing him. I would just hand my boss the write up. My stance would be “As an employee here I must report all fraudulent behaviors.”

      As far as his remarks, I would start by saying, “Mark, you are here to learn about work and work places. You need to know that your remarks about “dumb” things need to stop immediately. The next thing that needs to stop is when a boss gives you an assigned task to do you cannot reply with something negative about the task. A simple, ‘okay, will do’ is all that is required. A steady flow of negative remarks makes bosses think you don’t want the job. It’s totally inappropriate in most workplaces.”

    12. BluntBunny*

      A simple these are instructions not suggestions. This is what is required from you. He may know about IT but he doesn’t understand a lot about business and the working world. Calling things dumb and telling you these things don’t matter is so inappropriate. Maybe even give the student honest feedback saying based on what we’ve seen so far we wouldn’t hire you if you applied again and would give a good reference.

    13. Someone Else*

      This may not work, but at least for the “that’s stupid, that computer is powerful enough” type assignments, I might try looking him straight in the eye very seriously, like almost too seriously, and say in an extremely even tone “Nevertheless, that is your current assignment and I expect you to do it as directed. Can you do that?” and then just wait. And if he pushes back again, switch to something like “this is a non-optional component of this internship. If you’re not able to complete it we should discuss whether it makes sense for you to remain.” There’s no logical way for him to try to frame this as bitchy or mean. This is the calmest of calm matter of fact response. It’s just the facts: this is what his gig entails and he’s either prepared to do it, or not. If you don’t have enough authority over him for that to hold water, then it still might be worth going stony-faced “Nevertheless, that is your current assignment” and see if it gets you anywhere. But I do think part of this is Mark has gotten it in his head that this stuff is up for debate, so it’s time for an approach that reinforces how very not true that is.
      For him installing the memory incorrectly and insisting it doesn’t matter, a straight-faced “that is incorrect” might be in order, but it also might rile him up. Hard to tell.
      If you really don’t have authority over him for there be consequences, and church-friend boss won’t hold Mark to any standards, then you might be in “your intern sucks and isn’t going to change” territory.

  38. Gaia*

    Okay! Week 7 post lay-off and I have some exciting news!

    Not a job, but a college degree!

    I stopped pursuing my degree because of the sheer cost about 5 years ago. I was 14 elective credits away from completion but I just could not afford another dime and had no financial aid available to me. Then, work got in the way and I just got too busy. Well, now I have all the time in the world so I figured I’d look at options. Turns out, my school accepts ACE credits and so I signed up for 5 courses on StraighterLine, finished them up and passed my exams in a break-neck 3 1/2 weeks and sent the transcripts off to the university yesterday! My degree will officially be issued December 14. I don’t plan on walking, but I do plan on celebrating.

    I took 15 years to finish this thing from when I first started. I honestly thought I never would. So to anyone reading this know that it is NEVER too late.

    1. Bostonian*

      Congratulations!!!

      So many people never go back or finish. But you’re right, it’s never too late!

    9. Former Retail Manager*

      Congratulations!! I hope it opens some doors for you and a new job is around the corner!

    11. rubyrose*

      I myself was on the 23 year plan :-). I know that inner tension about being so close but yet so far.
      You should be very, very proud of yourself! I know I am.

    16. ..Kat..*

      Amazing! Congratulations!

      And, now you have an excellent reply to the interview question “what did you do while you were unemployed?”

  39. ACDC*

    I have a question about the facilities roles at companies and the functions they serve. This is my first time working somewhere with a facilities manager, and he has 2 facilities assistants. Our location only has 300 people, so I guess I don’t see the need for 2 full time and 1 part time facilities peeps when the property management co is located in our building. The 2 assistants’ jobs are to go around to the various coffee stations in our building throughout the day and make sure they are fully stocked and cleaned. There’s only 12-15 coffee stations in the building, do they really need to be attended by 2 people 8 hours a day? Most of the time I see these 2 assistants in the lounge area because they have nothing to do.

    I guess I’m looking for insights that others may have to the functions these types of roles serve because right now all I see is a giant waste of money. I realize my tone might be a little salty, but I am genuinely curious for insights that others have that might open my eyes.

      1. ACDC*

        Private company. And the part time assistant just started a couple weeks ago. I legit watched the full time assistant train the part time assistant for over a week on how to properly stock and clean the coffee station. Like come on…

    2. Four lights*

      I don’t know if this is enough work for two people, but I will say that having someone do that work is totally worth it. Otherwise everything’s a mess and no one wants to clean it up.

      I’d also say that they could be doing other work you don’t know about.

      1. ACDC*

        I totally get why having a designated person for these things is necessary, but it seems like it could be a part time position for 1, or just enveloped by someone else’s duties.

    3. LKW*

      Are you sure that’s their only job? I would expect facilities would also be managing light fixtures (light bulbs burn out). Entrances and exits (doors break), doors need to be kept clear of debris and water and snow. Managing the a/c and heat for the year. Ensuring the bathrooms are in working order – getting a plumber when not. Taking care of or supervising any repair or cleaning or other maintenance (they can replace things like a broken switch plate but perhaps not the switch itself).

      Also, having back up is important. The last thing you want is for something to go wrong when someone is out on vacation or ill and have no one who knows where the water switch off is and how to get in touch with the contracted plumber.

      1. ACDC*

        So the property management company handles everything with the doors, bathroom, plumbing, etc, but the facilities manager handles the light fixtures and AC. I have a general sense of what the facilities manager does, but I’m pretty darn sure the assistants don’t handle anything besides the coffee stations.

    4. mrs_helm*

      Places I have worked, facilities roles encompassed a lot of things: Changing light bulbs, unlocking/locking up, moving furniture, salting & shoveling for snow/ice, general repair & upkeep of things. Some places do/don’t contract out : Grounds keeping, janitorial, floor mats, etc. Depending on the qualifications, I’ve known facilities people who even repaired various equipment (mowers, manufacturing, office). It really depends. But I second the idea that what you are seeing of them is probably not ALL they do.

      1. ACDC*

        I posted this to LKW’s comment as well, but those duties are all done by the facilities manager and various contractors from the property management company. I guess I should have phrased my question better, because I have a general idea of what the facilities manager does, but don’t have any clue as to what the assistants do besides the coffee stations.

        1. WellRed*

          Now I’m curious what your facilities manager does, because changing lightbulbs, general upkeep/repairs etc., is what I would expect the FM to do.

          1. WellRed*

            Sorry, just re-read and see FM does do some of this, but honestly, I would wonder what that whole department does for a full 40.

      2. Gumby*

        And getting rid of the ants. I suspect that is about 50% of the work our facilities manager is doing now. (Not really, but seriously. Ants. Everywhere. Well, now ant traps everywhere but they are full of ants so…)

    5. valentine*

      If it’s not your money, who is it hurting? Even if your colleagues are pristine people who don’t use the stations, this is a great service and possibly a great job. If you think it’s a one-person job, the redundancy is great for when disaster strikes and so the other person can have breaks without anyone whining or because so-and-so makes a fuss if there are fewer than 50 whatsits in the cupboard. Given the letters here about people who can’t do their jobs properly without daily or constant step-by-step lists, mainly the existence and location of other step-by-step lists, the training doesn’t seem excessive. It also sounds like a job where some people will complain either way if the minder is doing anything but waiting to tend the machine.

    6. DK*

      Former facilities assistant here, I not only stocked and cleaned coffee areas, but also set up conference rooms and delivered mail, among many, many other things. How are those those tasks taken care of at your location?

  40. Muriel Heslop*

    Okay, I am thinking about taking a break from working. My kids are in school full-time, one of them has special needs with extra support needed after school and appointments a few times a month. It wouldn’t be forever, but my spouse and I think that at this juncture it may be best for our family. But we are both concerned about my mental well-being if I don’t have a workplace to go to and be productive. Basically, my heart says YES and my head says NOOO!

    If it helps, I am a teacher with 20+ years of experience, am a department head and a large network. I am regularly approached by other principals to come and work with them so I am not especially concerned about re-entry to the workforce. Of course anything can happen!

      1. Four lights*

        Or substitute periodically. And realistically, you’re trying this out for a year. If you don’t think it works, you could go back to work the next school year. Maybe you could also pick a project to work on for the year, like developing some sort of teacher training.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          Yes, to substituting. I’ve heard some teachers say this is a great way to remain at the forefront of principal’s minds so they don’t forget about you and are ready to snap you up the second you’re ready to return full time.

    2. Luisa*

      Would going part-time be an option? I know that can be tricky depending on what/who you teach, but if it’s an option that might be a happy medium.

    3. Nita*

      I’m looking at a similar break, hopefully. I’m not cut out to just stay home either, so I’m thinking I’ll either part-time at my current job, or take a shot at something small I’ve been considering for a couple years but haven’t had time for. Still, wouldn’t pass this up for anything – the kids are both struggling in different ways, and not being there for them has been doing a number on my mental health. And being there isn’t really an option with a high-pressure job and 2.5 hour commutes on a good day. I hope you find a way to do what you want!!!

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      Since you have a lot of experience, could you possibly be an adjunct education instructor at a local college? With adjuncting you would likely not have a full time teaching load, be able to maybe teach online, or generally pick what times you want to teach (depending on the institution of course)? Or do freelance consulting for educational institutions? My mentor’s wife retired after being a teacher/principal but still wanted to do something, so she works with administrations and school districts on their professional development activities. I’m not sure how she really came about doing it (I know she now also teaches in the principal cert program at a local university, so maybe that was the connection), but she really used her network to get those connections going.

    5. LKW*

      Change your mindset on what “productive” means. It could mean getting to the gym every day, learning new recipes, getting through a back catalog of books you haven’t had a chance to read. It could be joining or starting a book club. Cleaning out your garage. Working part time in a gift store.

    6. Parenthetically*

      Random collection of thoughts (10 years of teaching, am taking a break while I have small kiddos):

      A routine is the most helpful thing for me. Monday/Wednesday/Friday looks one way and Tuesday/Thursday looks a different way. I also try to think of my life in more of a “job” way, as I approach problems and tasks. Obviously re-negotiating household management is part of this for a lot of people — I certainly cook and clean more now that I’m at home more. I’m not great at routines for this yet, but I’d like to get better about it. Also, when my husband gets home from work, he’s “on duty” with kiddo to give me a chance to decompress — I say that to point out that it’s important to negotiate those cusp/transition times as well. When your spouse gets home, who does what?

      I try to be really intentional and regular about making time for adult conversations — meeting friends for lunch, keeping a group chat going with my closest folks, calling my mom a couple times a week. It’s really rejuvenating, and SO necessary when you’re used to all the social interaction at a school!

      I also tutor, mostly homeschooled kids, so it’s during the day when my son is napping. It’s been great for my brain to have that little bit of time doing familiar teachery things, and it’s a nice little supplementary income as well.

      I struggle with anxiety and depression so I did a couple extra sessions with my therapist. Highly recommended for anyone going through a big life transition, but there seemed to be a lot of Big Feelings for this feminist who found herself a stay-at-home-mom who cooks and cleans 90% of the time!

      Best of luck to you!

  41. Random Name*

    I’ve been working on 2 high-profile projects, Project A and Project B. Project A was given priority, and launched last weekend. In the weeks leading up to that, I had to spend most of my time on Project A, intending to wrap up everything I could so that when we went live, I’d be able to pivot and focus on Project B. I’ve spent this week doing some hand-holding and dealing with issues that popped up, which is totally normal. The project manager on Project B has been complaining about me not spending enough time on her project. Bottom line is that she’s mad Project B was not prioritized over Project A. Maybe it should have been, but it wasn’t, and there’s nothing to be done about it now.

    She complained about my co-worker and I traveling to other offices to do testing and training for Project A, claiming it was completely unnecessary and could have been done remotely. Yes, it could have, but it would have taken twice as long, and would not have been nearly as productive as it was to be there in person. And we had management approval to go; it’s not like we just hopped on a plane without telling anyone what we were doing. She has complained about my lack of availability. She has complained about my responsiveness, or lack thereof (as she sees it). She complained to my boss a couple weeks ago and said that someone on the business side was threatening to escalate this whole thing to the senior director we all report into. That was the first I’d heard of it. She has talked about me incessantly to anyone who will listen, but never once has she talked directly to me about any of this. That tells me that I’m not as much of a problem as she’s saying; but I am a very convenient scapegoat. I’m now at the point where I don’t want to talk with her without another person present, because I don’t trust her to not twist my words somehow and find a way to use them against me and try to get me into trouble. I even read back through our entire IM history, and there was nothing there even hinting that she or anyone else was preparing to go over my head.

    Anyway — I had a talk with my boss about this today, and told him I was doing my best to split my time 50/50 between the 2 projects, but that the one was requiring some additional care. And I told him that it is extremely frustrating to have this PM telling everyone except me about how I’m not doing my job, but never once coming and talking to me about any of this herself. He completely got where I was coming from, which was a relief. He told me he was going to have another person from our group join Project B, which I actually think is a great idea. She has a lot of knowledge that I don’t have about some tools I don’t work with at all, except on an as-needed basis. It will be beneficial to the project.

    We have a meeting tomorrow for me to do a hand-off and get her up to speed. So here’s my question: do I tell her to watch her back with this conniving shrew? Or will I come off as a catty bitch? I was completely blindsided by her pot-stirring BS, which I think was totally intentional. My co-worker is a really nice person and we get along, but I don’t know her well enough to say that we’re friends. I’m pretty sure that this PM operates like this all the time, and I don’t want my co-worker to be caught off guard the way I was.

    TL;DR — bitchy co-worker has been complaining about me behind my back. Do I warn my co-worker who’s about to start working closely with her, or keep my mouth shut?

    1. Binky*

      Hmmmm. If this was me, I’d probably warn her. On the other hand that’s probably not the most professional route. Either way, I would definitely give her tips on how to succeed in working with her (or at least covering her butt). Something like, “it’s best to check in regularly about timing/prioritization” and “I’ve found it useful to keep everything documented via email so we can both refer back to what was decided.”

      1. Random Name*

        I like your email comment. I’ll probably use that. I did find out that the PM actually asked to have me removed from the project. Not from her directly of course, but from someone else that she told. On the one hand, I’m relieved that I don’t have to deal with her anymore, because she’s not a trustworthy person. On the other hand, I’m concerned that it makes me look really bad, although I think my boss knows me, and what I’m dealing with, well enough to know that it’s not like I was just blowing things off for no reason.

        Thanks for the tip. :)

    2. BRR*

      From what it sounds like, no. In theory you should be able to tell your co-worker, but I think there’s at least a chance it’s going to make you look bad. This is one of the rare times that I favor not being direct. I like Binky’s suggestion of providing tips on for working with her.

    3. LCL*

      You totally warn nice coworker, but in a way that is professional. Basically, don’t say anything about bad coworker that you couldn’t say to her face. As part of the briefing, give nice coworker a verbal, police report/news write style sequence of events, and let her draw her own conclusions. When nice coworker asks you why mean coworker did anything, respond that you can’t speak to anyone else’s thoughts and motivation, only your own.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Her problem isn’t really you. She’s lashing out at her bosses for assigning you to someone else’s project.

      What I would do is say, “New Person, I have not been able to give the time to Project B that it needs. My bosses told me that A was my priority. So if people tell you they feel neglected, they are probably correct to some degree. It would be to your advantage to be really focused on their concerns when you start as they feel UNheard. They may try to latch on to you with 100 thousand problems. This is where it comes from, they were not a priority earlier. Things may settle as you go along. You actually have knowledge X, Y and Z that I do not have so you are the better choice to help them.”

      This is a blend of big picture story and Project B people’s perspective. You can say it with a tone, “Hey nothing in life goes perfectly and project B is no exception.”

    5. valentine*

      Don’t poison the well. Far from treating this person the same way, the PM can go to the opposite extreme: effusive praise because this person is doing everything the PM wanted you to do. I don’t see how you can win, especially since no one’s told the PM to shut up about you. Would it make sense to be direct with the PM or to ask your supervisor to tell her you’ve done your job properly?

  42. Jennifer*

    Hi all–are “transferable skills” a thing any more? By which I mean, I am sick at heart at trying to find another assistant/clerical worker job, and I’m really sick of being one in the first place. Last night while job hunting I got the bright idea to be a technical writer–I used to be a professional writer back in the dark ages (but given the state of media these days, that’s not an option) and I write documentation for things at work, and it looks like it pays at least a little more than my usual.

    But I’m old and haven’t done it for a living before (though I look really young) and I don’t know if you can get a job in something else you haven’t already done before any more. That hasn’t gone well in job hunting here. Is that a feasible idea to try to do? How do you do it? Or should I just resign myself that once you’re in a box, you’re stuck in that box?

    1. ZSD*

      You’re not stuck in your box! Yes, transferable skills still exist. The first thing to do, I think, is to find people who work as technical writers, or who work at companies that employ technical writers, and do informational interviews with them. You’ll learn more about whether this is work that truly interests you, and since they’ve met you, they’ll think of you as a possible hire when a position opens up in the future.
      That is, I think networking is even more important when you’re looking to transition to a new type of role.

  43. Seifer*

    One of my coworkers is on reddit literally all. day. At lunch one day, we checked timestamps on his posts just out of curiosity and he has 700K reddit karma (?) and he joined 4 years ago. I can’t figure out a way to say anything about it that doesn’t sound petty, because it would just be pettiness–he is the type to complain about how exorbitantly busy he is all the time and the urge to shout, “then get the hell off reddit!” is strong.

    We’re waiting for karma to hit him when he can’t get his work done, but man, it is slow going. It’s not good for morale, since we are all actually busy and it is aggravating to watch him sit on reddit all day. I’m mostly just venting because I did a flowchart of “can I complain about this?” and question one was “does it affect my work flow?” and I answered no. Karma, come on and do your thing!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I have a coworker that is on his phone all the time. As in, during a training he’s conducting, he’s on his phone, not looking up, just mumbling. And then he tries to pass work to me because gosh, just so busy. Luckily I think he’s picked up after we had a facility-wide meeting of each department’s status (we are each our own department, lol) and my chunk was significant, and his was piddling.

      1. Seifer*

        Do we work together? Ha! My coworker basically did the same thing, pushed off all his work to us (four overtaxed engineers spanning different disciplines) and thought that was a good idea and still doesn’t understand why we’re pissed off at him.

          1. Seifer*

            Ooooooh, game changer. I was just thinking in terms of regular interactions, because he pushed off so much of his work that my work flow never intersects with his anymore. I may bring this up today.

            1. valentine*

              Do not address what he is doing. Withdraw from the gossip, stop stalking his redditing, and proceed as though you know nothing about how he spends his time, unless asked directly about what he was doing when he was meant to do qrs. Focus on what he’s not doing (that a proper employee would do) and how it affects you/the team/productivity.

  44. k8*

    we had a “fall party” last night right after work, and there was booze and candy for halloween…..but no food. like, we were literally encouraged to put bourbon in apple cider, but no one in HR or on the social committee thought that providing some pizza or something to would be a good idea apparently?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Maybe they thought they’d save on alcohol by having everyone drinking with empty stomachs?

      But yeah, that’s pretty shortsighted. Who serves alcohol at a function with no actual food? Candy’s not food!

      1. Pjm*

        I once went to a wedding that served a ton of alcohol with no substantial food, just a small amount of light apps. People were leaving early in droves cause they were starving and needed real food. How can anyone think to serve food when there is alcohol served. Yes, very ridiculous!

  45. Progressive Talent Pipeline*

    Has anyone else had a phone interview with the Progressive Talent Pipeline, and if so, have you heard back since? I had an interview with them over a month ago but haven’t heard back. They’ve ignored my emailed requests for updates. Does anyone have any news?
    (Ordinarily, I wouldn’t ask about specific job interviews like this, of course, but it seems like they’re probably interviewing hundreds of people for these potential slots. I thus thought there might be other AAM readers who are applying.)

  46. Bostonian*

    Does anyone have tips for structuring/restructuring a department that’s too management-heavy?

    There are about 25 people in the department, and enough have been there long enough that they’ve been promoted to management-type roles, which includes getting a direct report. There is only 1 track, and in order to “move up”, you have to become management. The issues we’re having are either:
    1) all of the experienced llama wranglers have less time for llama wrangling because they have management responsibilities
    OR
    2) they’re not doing the management/training of new hires well enough because there is so much llama wrangling to be done that they put their focus on that

    Essentially, everyone is too busy to do both managing and llama wrangling well. It seems to me like we need people who are experienced in llama wrangling but DON’T have direct reports. The problem with that is this is a group of highly competitive people who are uber-sensitive to “fairness”, so I’m not sure how well it will go over to have 2 separate tracks, only one of which leads to management.

    Any ideas?

    1. CatCat*

      If the two tracks had comparable pay and future opportunities for advancement, that may help with “fairness” concerns. Like you can be Llama Manager or Llama Expert and if the pay and prestige at the company are pretty on par, that may help. If the next rung up the ladder is only a management track like to Senior Llama Manager, I’d also make management training an option for Llama Experts who later have an interest into moving into management. That way Llama Expert doesn’t look like a dead end role with no way to move up from there. Like if Llama Managers and Llama Experts both could eventually move up to Senior Llama Manager at some point, that could help.

      1. TechWorker*

        Totally agree with the above- if management isn’t the only route to good pay/progression in responsibilities then this should hopefully become easier!

  47. Sepia Ringtone*

    Sooooo, my boss is friends with my colleague. Like they hang out/text after work. They did not know each other before my colleague was hired. Last week, they (along with another colleague in another department) all left a few minutes early. We all have access to each other’s calendars. Not surprisingly, the three of them had 2 hours blocked off at the end of the day. No one else in the department did. I’m pretty sure they went out to get drinks and didn’t want to tell anyone. :/

  48. Q_Continuum*

    I hope this is work-related enough: I’m wondering how best to mention a mental disorder at work and school (I’m currently in college). I have Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder, and in my case it mostly manifests in a lot of anxiety that keeps me from being able to do certain things. Not really interfering with essential tasks I’d need to do, mostly extra stuff like team sports or other “fun” extras. I want a way to explain this when it comes up, without having to go into a whole discussion about my exact diagnosis and how it acts. Would a phrasing like “I’ve been diagnosed with a disorder that causes anxiety” work? I’ve considered calling it an “anxiety disorder,” since it feels like a more recognizable, but safely general, phrase, but I think that generally refers to specific disorders that AREN’T mine, like OCD, and I don’t want to promote further confusion between the two.

    1. Dexy*

      Are these activities mandatory? If not, it’s perfectly fine to say you’re busy and not able to participate. If they are mandatory, you can also say you have a health issue that prevents you from participating…. If you don’t want to get into the what/why/how of your specific issue.

    2. WellRed*

      Lots of people don’t like “fun extras,” diagnosis or not. Any reason you feel you need to get specific?

    4. LilySparrow*

      One thing about being out in the work world is that a lot of things just don’t need explaining. In most situations, “no thank you” or “it’s not my thing” are more than sufficient.

      Most people truly don’t care why, they just want to know whether you’re in or out, so they can get on with it.

      If you’re dealing with nosy or pushy people, “sorry, I can’t participate because of some health issues,” is more than enough.

      And if they’re any pushier than that, you can just say, “I don’t like to talk about medical stuff at work.”

      If it’s important to you to explain, that’s your perogative. But you have no obligation, unless you need to arrange accommodations for your work. In that case, you’re better off being straightforward about the diagnosis so you can get specific help – but only with the person arranging it. You still don’t have to explain it to everyone.

    5. ..Kat..*

      I have found great information about OCD on the International OCD Foundation website. This does not answer your question, but, it can link you in to resources that can help you overall.

    6. valentine*

      Be need-to-know about it. The stigma and media misrepresentation will only hurt you. There’s a commenter here who was fired for disclosing autism. If the events are mandatory, ask for a medical accommodation not to attend or to participate in a non-athletic way. If they’re voluntary or voluntold, say you can’t due to a medical reason and broken-record that it’s medical.

  49. Quill*

    I just transitioned to a new immediate supervisor, and honestly I’m kind of frustrated. I’ve got what’s now a year’s experience in teapot testing, and some school related experience, and he comes from the related field of sugar bowls.

    It’s nice that he trusts my judgement with teapot analysis but I feel like we’re not getting much done because 1) I’ve been mostly shuffled over onto his sugar bowl and teapot correlation testing, 2) my lab habits just got tuned to previous mentor (mornings with her started at 8:30, so no matter how close to 8 I got in I had time to check my mail and figure out what I was doing: new supervisor is a morning person.) 3) we come from completely different places in terms of documenting our teapot testing.

    Any advice on how I can switch gears to do a little more managing up so we’re more effective in the lab / actually getting any feedback at all on my documents?

  50. INeedANap*

    I posted a few weeks ago about applying for a staff university job a few grades above mine, and I got an interview!

    With that having been said, this is my first interview for a management/supervisor type position where I would have someone working under me. The university has a lot of situational or behavioral “tell me about a time when” or “how would you handle this” type questions in interviews.

    What types of situations or behavioral questions are asked in an interview where you would be a manager? Conflict resolution? I’m kind of at a loss on how to prepare, since I also won’t have direct experiences with managing to answer those “tell me about a time when” questions.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      When I’ve been involved in this kind of interview, the answers don’t have to be strictly work-related. Have you been a team leader on some other kind of project? School, volunteer organization, parent committee, etc? If someone was applying for their first management position, we’d be willing to accept those kind of responses.

  51. Stephanie*

    I’m helping out with recruiting in my department and one of the more senior managers kept complaining that “the college hires keep leaving at 3 – 4 years.” I just kind of nodded along, but I think some of the more senior recruiters maybe have outdated ideas about tenure. Or maybe I’m off-base? Thoughts?

    (I work at a household name MegaCorp where this job is a lot of people’s first job out college.)

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      3-4 years out of college seems like really good retention to me. At that point it’s usually move up or move on.

      1. Stephanie*

        That was actually my targeted tenure (or at least when I was going to take a serious evaluation of where my career was going), so I may just need to keep quiet about that. :)

    2. Dexy*

      3-4 years is actually a pretty good length of time as far as I can tell! If these managers are Baby Boomers, they may be ascribing to an outdated idea about tenure, when loyalty was assumed and people weren’t getting restructured out of their jobs.

      1. Stephanie*

        See, that was my thought. There are a decent amount of lifers and I think they may be subscribing to that idea. But with no pensions and cyclical hiring/layoff cycles, I’m not sure what the impetus to stay is really unless your career is really taking off.

      2. Stephanie*

        I did have a director tell me “We don’t just want to recruit people and then have them leave after like four or five years!” I was just like “Uh, yeah! Of course not!”

      3. ThursdaysGeek*

        As a baby boomer who is approaching retirement – loyalty hasn’t been assumed for decades! That is someone SERIOUSLY out of touch, if they have any ideas like that. 3-4 years is all you can expect in most industries.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I suspect we have the Winning Comment right here, but I haven’t read all the way down the thread yet.

    4. NACSACJACK*

      Question is: Why are they leaving? What is causing them to leave Megacorp? Lack of opportunities, better salaries, ways up the ladder, being pigeonholed into a job? I’m realizing that I should have left after 5 years or 10 years after my last promotion (15 years) to move up or at least gain different skills.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Yeah, 3-4 years is pretty good! If the company doesn’t promote from within, they can’t expect people to stay in an entry-level role for more than that. Does MegaCorp have any paths up for its new grads?

        1. Stephanie*

          No, not really. They will pigeonhole you in the role if you aren’t very vocal about what you want to do next or don’t set it up yourself. I asked about doing a rotation in a different division (I’m in the same new grad rotational program*) and they were somewhat resistant and were like “But you could stay in your current role!” So I sense that with a (maybe) improved economy is some of it.

          They will promote from within, but at least in my current team, I don’t pick up it’s like an automatic promotion to a different or better job once you roll off the program.

          *Longtime commenters will remember I was un/underemployed and then went back to grad school. I was hired into the new grad rotational program at this same company.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            3-4 years strikes me as the point at which the new grads will have gained enough work experience to be able to move to a better, non-entry level position. So if the entry level jobs aren’t all that great (poor benefits, for example) and there isn’t a clear path for promotion to a better job, you’re going to lose people, particularly the best employees.

            Plus, even if you offered all that – great benefits, decent pay, promotion opportunities – you’ll still have some people leaving. People will decide that they want a different type of job completely, or leave for family reasons, or want to move somewhere else, or be a poor fit for the job.

            1. AcademiaNut*

              Also, I suspect this is more a recovering economy issue than an age issue – when the economy was bad, they could expect people to come in, be grateful for a job, and not be able to leave for a better job easily, without having to do much to entice them to stay. Now people have more options, but I think that a lot of employers haven’t caught on to the fact that employment is more of a two way street now.

              1. Stephanie*

                Benefits are good. Not Google good, but they’re pretty good. I really think it’s the improving economy and just natural attrition. I also don’t think there’s a clear promotion path after you finish the rotational program, so unless you’re clearly on the up and up, I can see why people would start looking around. HR had one woman come in for an exit interview and was like demanding answers (she had been there 3 years).

  52. CheeryO*

    A recruiter outed my boyfriend’s job search to his coworker this week, so that was nice. We’re not sure if it was actively vindictive or just coincidental, but he called him about a different position with the same company and told him that he had gotten a great deal for my boyfriend there. What’s worse, the recruiter said that he turned the job down “because his girlfriend made him,” which is… not a kind interpretation. He did tell the recruiter that he needed to discuss it with me, but there were a bunch of reasons why it wasn’t a good fit, and he just gave him a generic “not the right move at this time” line when he turned it down.

    He decided to let it go, which I’m sure is logically the correct decision, but man… what an obnoxious move. My boyfriend also works with his boss’s son, so if the recruiter had called HIM instead of this other guy who he happens to be friends with, that could have been very bad.

    1. Reba*

      Yikes. Is there anyway to give feedback to the recruiter’s boss or the hiring company. That is… bad.

      1. CheeryO*

        He had emails drafted to the hiring company and recruiting company earlier this week, but he decided against it on the off chance that the guy really was vindictive and might try calling another of his coworkers. It’s been a few days and nothing else has happened, so I’m assuming it was just a coincidence and really bad judgement. So maybe I’ll see if he still wants to let them know.

    2. Joielle*

      WOW. I’m admittedly petty, but I’d consider calling the recruiting company to complain about that. I know your boyfriend decided to let it go but that seems like a pretty serious breach of ethics… like outing a person’s job search is probably the single most important thing for a recruiter not to do. That guy sucks!

      1. CheeryO*

        Thanks. I’m also petty, but I still think it would be worth elevating, if only to keep the same thing from happening to someone else!

  53. Environmental Compliance*

    I had sent out an email to the handful of people in the admin building with me a couple weeks ago detailing what dates I would be out completely due to medical leave and what dates following that I’d be working from home. The number of those same people who email me to tell me to have fun on my vacation and/or get really oddly aggressively surprised that I’m responding to emails because I’m “on vacation” is staggering. Especially since the whole office sent me flowers, which generally in this office everyone contributes a couple bucks to.

    Also, one enterprising individual called me to ask how to scan things in the copy machine. Fun fact – I’m the environmental compliance manager, not admin, office manager, support staff…..maybe try following the directions on the machine? It operates like every other copy machine I know of. Stick in, select scan, select destination, press Go.

    That is all. Still working from home and going stir-crazy waiting to be released to go back to normal.

    1. valentine*

      I would be relieved that they’re not nosy, but worried their reading comprehension, if similar for work stuff, will hurt me down the road.

  54. Anonamoose*

    Calling out to people with industrial careers in STEM companies, particularly in polymer/material science realm. I’m defending in the next six months and job searching now, so any advice on finding/filtering jobs would be appreciated. I have no job experience outside a lab but I’m going to have a PhD and looking for R&D roles. Am I considered entry level? Professional? Should I apply to ones that say bachelors minimum, but “Masters or higher preferred” or should I focus more on the ones that say that “PhD is preferred”? Welcoming any guidance/discussion here.

    1. Stephanie*

      My company (Big 3 Auto) hires PhDs into direct hire roles in specialized R&D. Usually the roles say MS or PhD preferred and aren’t tied to any kind of rotational new hire type program. Good luck!

    2. blackcat*

      Are you okay with defense? If so, lots of defense contractors (ex, Raytheon, Lockeed) hire STEM PhDs with reasonable coding experience into mid-level roles (my friend got hired out of his PhD program as a “senior scientist-1” and is now a “senior scientist-2” after 2 years in). They consider the PhD job experience, so, no, you are not entry level. So jobs that say “PhD preferred” are fine, as are jobs that say “Masters + 3 years experience.” But also wait until you’re closer to the defense–the hiring timeline is MUCH sorter in industry. They’ll look at you sideways if you say you want to start in 6 months. 2 months out would be unusual but okay. Unless you can start before your defense, I would wait until closer to 3ish months lead time.

      If at all possible, reach out to your alumni network and see if there’s anyone at one of those companies. It is much easier to get a job if you have someone at the company take a quick look at your resume.

    3. Miss Wels*

      I work in STEM and most of our job postings for science positions say that they want X number of years experience but that X degree can substitute for the experience, so you could definitely get positions that are not entry level, but it never hurts to apply for as many open positions that you’re interested in and qualified for as you can to increase your odds.

    4. BluntBunny*

      If you have a PhD you would be a senior scientist or engineer without industry experience. On types of jobs with I would say for polymer films are the main focus of paint, adhesives, plastics and packaging companies. Experience in nanoparticles would be useful in lots of fields you could apply for speacility chemicals and pharma.

    5. Gumby*

      Our job listings say “PhD in [subject area] or equivalent experience” – the same exact listing has recently netted us one person who joined us straight from her first post doc and one candidate who has probably 30 years of experience in academia and industry. Their titles once they are hired and salaries reflect the difference in their experience level, but the job listing was the same for both.

      What was more relevant is what kind of experience they had. We do a very specific type of work and candidates with highly relevant backgrounds – regardless of years of experience – have a definite advantage. [Subject area] is, like most specialized areas, *very* connected. (I am one of the non-PhD people here and my job security comes entirely from the fact that my co-workers would all much rather be in the lab than wrangling the budget or schedule. Lunch conversations sometimes center on so-and-so from [research lab 2 states over] is retiring and whosiwatchi from [different country] just did [apparently super-exciting thing] and I have little to no idea who these people are but my co-workers talk about them like they are best friends.) Your adviser and/or people on your committee should be a great source of leads.

  55. Aggie*

    How aggressive should I be about asking for more work? I mention my light work load to my manager during our one-on-ones and ask for more projects. I also volunteer to work on things that are brought up in team meetings. Promises are often made about more work coming down the pipe, but nothing ever seems to pan out. My manager will give me small things that honestly don’t take more than a day to complete.

    It’s light enough that I’m worried about job security. Should I be more aggressive or assertive? A friend says I should sit back and enjoy the light work load because it likely won’t last.

    I’ve been at this job for about four months, and I otherwise love it. But I’m not feeling very useful.

    1. Bostonian*

      Do you have a coworker that is in the same/similar role as you, but is more senior that you could ask? They might be able to tell you if this is normal for starting out in this position (i.e., you don’t get more long-term projects until 6-8 months in).

      Also, it doesn’t hurt to follow up with your manager about specific projects when you haven’t heard anything. (“We had discussed the possibility of me writing the next ninja report, is that still the plan?”)

    2. Ghostwriter*

      Is this a newly created position? I don’t mean to scare you, but I took a newly created position before and was told there would be a lot of work to keep me busy. After the first several months, I finished all the projects they talked about during the interview and my workload became very light. I was constantly asking my teammates and manager for work. At my one-on-ones, my manager made vague promises about projects and new responsibilities that never panned out, and eventually I was laid off. If a few more months pass and you still don’t have enough work despite promises, you might want to start job hunting.

      Otherwise, I agree with Bostonian–if it’s an established role and there’s anyone in the same or similar roles, I’d ask them what kind of workload to expect. Even if you there isn’t someone in the same role, ask your other coworkers–they might know if the previous person in your position was mostly busy at the end of each quarter, the end of the year, etc.

    3. valentine*

      Ask your manager how they want you to handle the downtime and enjoy having time to be thorough.

  56. Master Bean Counter*

    Well I’ve had an interesting week. I was told in confidence that my boss will be job hunting. His parents are getting older and he’s feeling the need to be near them. So now I have to figure out how to put myself in the best position to possibly take over his job once he leaves. Could be in a month. Could be in a year.
    I’m already the person who gets questioned and asked to do some of his duties when he’s out. I have a good relationship with the CEO. I’m also the CEO’s go to person when he needs a report or information. I think I’m in a good position.
    I just have one obstacle. And that’s a coworker that’s above me on paper but functionally lateral to me. He’s a character. And that might play into my hand. But he’s also sports ball guy and good time Charlie. He socializes more with the other C people than myself, but not the CEO.
    So readers and tips to position myself better?

    1. WellRed*

      Was it your boss who told you? If so, ask him. If not, can you ask for a chat with the CEO to express interest?

  57. Rat Racer*

    I have been musing on the word “Please” in emails and how – ironically – when people say “Please” in an email it often sounds much ruder than if they do not. I’m trying to wrap my brain around why and under what circumstances. I think it’s because saying “please” in an email when you want someone to do something makes it sound like you think they would otherwise neglect to do their job?

    What do you guys think? Has anyone recently bristled at the word “Please” or am I just a weird Rat?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Personally, I use Please to soften a request so it doesn’t sound like I’m demanding something.

    2. Antilles*

      I think it depends on context. I’ll often use ‘please ____” when I’m asking something of a client or a clear superior. In this case, it’s not intended to sound like a nagging reminder, it’s just a way of slightly softening the request.
      But in some cases, it definitely can come across as patronizing, particularly if it’s being phrased as a reminder or used to a peer or subordinate.

    3. Graciosa*

      I think it depends upon the context.

      I have been known to use it when I am being politely distant (but firm) as an alternative to more obvious irritation.

      If I send an email that starts along the lines of “As you may recall from one of my previous messages on this topic” and ends with “Please let me know immediately as soon as you have corrected this issue” it means I’m fed up.

      It also could be read as advising you that this is your last warning before I start making your life miserable (albeit by politely drawing the attention of your superiors to your shortcomings).

      “Are you able to help Chris out with the Llama report? I would really appreciate it” is my version of a polite (non-annoyed) request.

      So I can understand bristling at the word “please” in certain circumstances – although I still use it in with no warning – or offense – intended.

        1. Dexy*

          ‘Tis. It’s also never productive and usually demonstrates a fundamental problem that cannot be solved by me.

      2. valentine*

        “Please advise” works on civilians who are obsessed with hierarchy and/or don’t want the advisee troubleshooting.

    5. Rat Racer*

      …and just to be clear, I don’t mean to say that “Please” is a rude thing to write. I’m trying to parse under which circumstances it comes across as standard politeness vs. the tone a teacher uses when they want a wayward student to stop chewing gum in class.

      1. Rat Racer*

        (sorry one last thing) because I think sometimes someone is actually intending to be polite but it comes off as totally condescending. Anyway, I think I’ve over-thought this…

      2. Dexy*

        I would say when “please” is used to emphasize a point, it becomes more strident and is no longer a polite qualifier but a demand.

    6. PSLFHandcuffs*

      Yep, sometimes I feel this way. For some reason when people email me and say something like “Would you please check your listing to see if this is valid” the “would you please” annoys me.

    7. LilySparrow*

      I think “would you please” or “can you please” almost always sound exasperated or snippy, because you’re sort of doubling-down.

      On the other hand, some phrases are always fine, like “Please feel free to contact me about…” or “Please join us…” I can’t imagine how those could come across wrong, unless the tone or content of the entire message was wrong from the start.

    8. valentine*

      I prefer concise commands, but “please” is far preferable to pretending I’ve a choice, such as “Would you mind?” (what I mind is your wordiness) or, worse, “Would you do me a favor?” (Ew.)

  58. Triplestep*

    I applied for a job via the company’s career portal … That was last night. This morning the same job popped up on Linkedin, with Easy Apply.

    Would it be overkill to also click Easy Apply? Reek of desperation? I thought I understood Easy Apply until a few weeks ago when several in-the-know commenters here explained that it’s the default for job posters on Linkedin and some might not even look at the applications the get that way. On the other hand, clicking Easy Apply sends your Linkedin profile to the job poster.

    Oddly, one of the reasons I am even thinking about this is because the application simply asked me to upload my resume and optional cover letter. I was NOT then asked to paste everything in so that an ATS could read it *gasp*! At first I thought “All right!” It was so refreshing. But today I find myself wishing a computer was parsing my application because I am so well suited for this job! Isn’t that crazy? I have been totally conditioned by the ATS application process.

    Anyway, what say you all about Easy Apply in this situation?

    1. bb-great*

      You already applied, what would be the benefit of applying again? imo if I got two applications from the same person I would assume they weren’t paying enough attention to realize they’d already applied to this job, which would not make a positive impression.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yeah, good point!

        I had been looking at this as if only one pile of applications will be sifted through – the Easy Apply or the company’s career site. Based on what was said about Easy Apply here, I would typically think the company’s site would be the place a recruiter would depend on for applicants, but since this one did not force me to copy/paste my entire resume into an online form, I distrusted it.

        Anyway, thanks for pointing that out!

  59. KayEss*

    What do y’all put in applications when they ask you to briefly tell them what makes you “unique”? I’ve seen this in a couple places so far, usually with a very small character limit–like 150 or fewer–and it always stumps me. It’s in addition to a cover letter, and they usually outright call for applicants to “be creative and say something that will catch our eye” (ugh, but at least it’s for a creative position).

    Is this the place to use that snappy LinkedIn headline all those useless articles tell you to workshop? Say something off-the-wall and gumption-y? Write a haiku? WHAT DO I DO HERE?

    1. Nanc*

      My DNA. [kidding]
      I can make a chicken out of a towel. [true–thanks official parks and rec training!]
      I can make a jumping frog out of paper.[true–thanks Kevin from high school chemistry class!]
      I can make a boat out of paper. [true–thanks Curious George!]
      I can answer this question without rolling my eyes so hard I see the inside of my skull. [kidding, unless you’re applying for VP of Creative Snark]

      Sigh. I’m not sure the question really helps in a screening process, even for a creative position but I would go with something tangible that you could demonstrate at an interview if they asked or that you can link to in your application.

      Good luck–let us know how it goes!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would just put what other people tell me they notice about me.
      We don’t usually see our uniqueness because to us this is what normal looks like, it’s our own sense of normal. Other people can be great at pointing out unique to us because it is something they do not have or something they really value in others.

    3. LurkieLoo*

      Something that can also translate to being functional?

      I can find the answer to almost anything online very quickly. (As an example, I identified a spotted skunk skull from the number of teeth in about 30 minutes. I didn’t even know spotted skunks existed in the area so I had nothing more to go on than size and number of teeth.)

      Or as a better example, the answer to this question is something in your background, soft skills, or work history that will make you look more appealing than the next person. Written creatively enough that it isn’t boring. According to my summary of the first 5 results on Google for: how to answer “what makes you unique”

    5. LilySparrow*

      I once discovered, entirely by accident, that I am uncannily accurate with throwing knives.

      My teaser may not the right tone to take for a job application, but perhaps you can come up with a teaser that will make them want to hear the story.

    6. JS#2*

      A friend just applied for a job and in the interview they asked what “unique” contribution he could bring to the team. My friend said, “I’m unusually tall, so I would raise the average height of your workforce.” He was hired. It was a little different but not weird.

      I always struggled with the “unique” questions because I don’t know who else is applying for the job. Who am I to say what sets me apart from other people who I don’t know!? I think I always tried to keep it professional and think about what my “value-add” is rather than my “unique contribution”. I think we get hung up on trying to make the “unique” too “unique.”

      Good luck!

  60. epi*

    A very close friend and I worked together in a horrible environment (we met there). We made huge contributions to a research program that really were not appreciated– actually people treated us like interns even though we were keeping the whole program runnings– and in a couple of cases even had our work stolen.

    My friend and I are both doing way better now. In fact my friend is doing so much better, she’s now about to finish medical school and is getting interviews for top residencies all over the country. As a result, she wants to talk about that old job every day! Remember how they treated us like we were stupid? Wonder what they’d say now!

    I get that and I am so happy for my friend, who deserves every bit of her success. But I need to not hear about this job anymore, and despite having been told I don’t think she quite gets that. My experience was even more negative than hers. She came out with a few friends and mentors, and while those people treated me well, to me they stayed just colleagues. However unintentionally, they seeemed part of a dynamic where people treated me as less than my friend or like I was just her assistant. My friend didn’t witness that, but it did happen, and I feel like I am breaking some kind of vent buddy code when I tell her, essentially, she wasn’t the most mistreated person there and was part of my horrible experience through no fault of her own.

    I’m tired of having my mood brought down by constantly talking about a part of my career that is behind me. Especially with the added dose of “at least Jane was great, right?” when actually, Jane clearly preferred my friend to me at a time I could really have used some allies. I have no intention of bringing down this nice time for my friend with a big picture talk telling her she is being insensitive, but she really, really is.

    1. Stephanie*

      I’m in a sort of similar situation: I’m friends with some people from grad school (they’re doing PhDs, I left with an MS) and we have a group text that can quickly turn into them griping about the department…which I’m sure I did plenty of, but have no desire to do anymore. I usually just deflect. If you’re comfortable can you say what you’ve said here–that you’ve moved on and would like to talk about happier things?

      FirstJob was terrible. My closest work friend was so because I realized all we did was gripe about work. Our friendship naturally faded after she left because we realized all we had in common was griping about that terrible job. You might have to be more forceful in saying that you don’t want to chat about that anymore (and maybe accept the friendship may change dramatically or even end).

    2. Chaordic One*

      I suspect that your friend has not really ever gotten past the bad old job and part of the reason why might be because she’s been going to school which really isn’t quite the same thing as having a job. You say that you are close, but it might be that you don’t really have very much else in common besides the past shared history of a toxic job where you were able to support each other. I suspect that, over time, your friendship will fade as her new career takes off and since you don’t seem to have that much in common anymore.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I agree.

        You are standing in her shadow so to speak. You guys leaned heavily on each other to get through a crisis situation and she came out ahead somehow.
        You need to spread your wings and fly, too. A little distance between the two of you is probably for the best. Relationships forged in a crisis don’t always fair well when the crisis is over. It’s time for you to do your own thing.

    3. valentine*

      She may know and be using you to pretend it wasn’t that bad for you and that she couldn’t have helped you. You don’t have to rank the experiences. Focus on yourself and be firm that your situation was so bad, you can’t listen/absorb her venting/discuss/think about it. And hang up or walk away if she doesn’t shut up. Maybe she can bang on about it to Jane. I also agree with the advice to distance yourself.

  61. Teapot librarian*

    Employee played hooky for his one on one meeting with me earlier in the week. When called out on it, he said he didn’t know the meeting was scheduled (I pointed to it in his outlook calendar), that I should have reminded him, etc., and then complained that I was making a big deal out of it when it was only one meeting. Fast forward to today, when we were supposed to have the rescheduled meeting. He called out sick. I love my employees.

  62. Your Weird Uncle*

    I’m getting an assistant! I’m beyond thrilled – my job has a lot of deadlines which, until recently, were all down to me to meet, so now I’ll be able to make sure someone is manning the ship if I ever take a vacation. (Which I hope to, someday! It’s been a while since I’ve felt like I could leave work.) I get to supervise him or her, which is an added bonus. Typically in my type of role, the assistant would be supervised by the general departmental manager, but in my case my boss wants to give me some managerial experience and bump me up into the next pay grade when the year rolls over for that sort of thing.

    Any advice to a first time manager? My employer offers classes which I’ll be starting in January, but I anticipate having someone in place either just before then, or right around the time classes start.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Be fair.
      Be consistent.
      Apologize when you are wrong.
      Give credit where credit is due.
      Listen.
      Explain why.
      Thank them at the end of the day.

  63. Michelle*

    Police shoot-out less than a quarter mile from where we work, coworkers wrecking in the parking lot watching the news helicopters and a coworker on Jeopardy. It was an interesting Thursday, but I’m so glad it’s Friday.

  64. I love your skirt!*

    I’ve come to the realization that I work with a Regina George-like woman at work. We are both in our early 30s. She plays mental games and has an alpha personality but can’t actually be the alpha person at work. So how do you deal with people who play mental games at work? The obvious response is to ignore them, but RG is on my team now so I need to stay a ten foot pole’s distance away from the mind f’ery!
    —
    More background: RG and I have been on the same team before, where I was the ‘lead’. Long story short, RG started bullying me pretty badly and my supervisor told me it was because she was used to being the alpha and was jealous of me because I knew the role so well and did a great job, blah blah. Ok… it took a year, but I guess we had a breakthrough (read: she got bored with me) and suddenly she just stayed being cool with me. I said F that, and transferred internally as soon as a great opportunity came up.

    Years later, we have more room on the new team. Guess who’s coming over?! RG and I are fine now, pretty friendly even, but I am afraid that her jealous and petty nature will resurface. I noticed she likes to compliment people a lot and it comes off very insincere. With me it’s “omg you’re soooo smart” or “wow, it’s amazing how you know sooo much”. RG loves to compliment a particular lady’s outfit all the time. This lady dresses very uniquely and RG used to say “omg where’d you get that!” to this lady daily until another coworker told RG to stop blowing smoke up that lady’s a. Overall nothing too malicious, but RG recently went through the trouble of planting a seed about persons A and B being romantically involved. She got the rumor started with coworker #1 and that made its way through the meerkat field until coworker #20 asked person B what was up with her and A. B was mortified. RG also started constantly asking B if she was interested in A and repeatedly stated that they would make a cute couple. A has a girlfriend.

    Overall RG plays mental games with people all day everyday and it took me years to realize it. Who does that?! She derives pleasure and excitement when she hits little nerves. I’m exhausted just thinking about the work that puts into it.

  65. BigSigh*

    I am at a loss about a coworker. It’s minor but so odd.

    I wrote a few OpenThreads ago (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/09/open-thread-september-7-8-2018.html#comment-2142038) about the coworker I asked to stop clipping her nails at her desk. I used the language suggested in a previous post by Alison (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/06/is-it-okay-to-clip-your-nails-at-work.html), coworker got mad, I apologized and never brought it up again, etc etc.

    Anyway, it’s been a month or so and I’ve successfully avoided her (even though we sit all of ten feet apart) until this week. We were both in the restroom and ended up at the sinks at the same time. I asked how she was doing and got a long “Ummmm” in reply. I assumed she hadn’t heard me over the faucets, so I faced her and repeated myself. When she just stared at me, I started thinking, “She can’t honestly be having this much trouble hearing me,” but rephrased with “How is your day going?”

    You would not believe her response. “Oh, I heard you. I’m just trying to figure out who you are.”

    And I just… Really? I said something along the lines of “Don’t bother,” and walked out. Even if she had face-blindness and legitimately couldn’t place me, that doesn’t explain the blatant rudeness. If someone I don’t know well or can’t recall seeing around asks me—in the office, no less—how my day is going, isn’t the default “fine, thanks” or “good, you?” In what universe is her response anything but catty and something out of a middle school special? I honestly cannot think of any other way to interpret it. Can anyone else? Serious question, because I really do want to give the benefit of the doubt here.

    I’m struggling to though, because she pulled the same thing when I asked her to stop clipping her nails last month. After I gave the conversation up for a bad job, she’d followed me to my desk to continue insisting why she should keep clipping her nails at her desk. She made a big show of looking at my name plate and “struggling” to pronounce my very basic first name (Think Stacy. It’s nothing special or unique). And all I could think then was what I thought this time. We’ve had lunch together 4-5 times this summer. You’ve told me all about your husband and being homeschooled and your love of gaming. We sit in the same small area of the office. Why are you pretending not to know who I am, and why are you making such a big statement about it? Is this some kind of weird power play?

    1. Reba*

      She thinks she is Mariah Carey?

      I don’t know, my suggestion is just to try not to let her take up so much space with you, you know? It doesn’t have to do with you, it’s her weird thing, and hopefully (other than annoyance) it doesn’t have to affect you that much. I hope. Geez.

        1. BigSigh*

          Naw, I got it. That is funny. I did decide to not make any kind of effort with her going forward. Her response to the nail clipping thing is probably the weirdest thing to ever happen in my office, but I let that go easily enough. I just won’t give her the opportunity to continue with this kind of stuff.

    2. Spider*

      This sounds like this woman is used to running with a pack of bullies, where pulling this kind of shit on a target as part of a big group is seriously intimidating……but now when she does it alone, it just makes her look like complete lunatic! Reading your description, it’s even a little funny, in a “is this real life or a comedy sketch?” sort of way.

      This is totally a situation where it’s worth “Returning the Awkwardness to Sender” and reacting to her like she’s the one behaving super weird (because she is!), not you. Hell, I would take her at face value and ask her in a tone of concern if she’s okay — “Jane, I hate to say this, but this is the 4th time you’ve asked me who I am this month. Are you aware that you’re having memory lapses? It might be worth talking to your doctor.”

      Not joking here: I had a supervisor a few years ago who died of brain cancer, and one of the early symptoms she had was forgetting her long-time coworkers’ names. I had worked with her for three years in a tiny office, and when I visited her in hospice, she knew that she knew me from somewhere, but couldn’t remember my name or that we had worked together.

      So that would be my tack. Don’t let her passive-aggressive hostility make you doubt yourself — remember that you are not the one behaving unusually, she is. If this were a friend of yours who began acting like this, how would you respond? Then do that with her.

      1. BigSigh*

        That’s actually a really amazing response. I appreciate the example (though I’m so sorry that happened to your former supervisor). If this ever comes up again, though I’ll do my best to avoid it, I could say with upmost seriousness I’m concerned about her memory and list our previous conversations.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      First: I get randomly asked “How is your day going?” by random strangers in elevators and in bathrooms all the time. I know they don’t know me. Maybe they do know me and I simply can’t place them. I answer exactly the same way you do, because it’s just a small social interaction. So yes, your instincts are correct and her response is weird.

      Second: Sounds to me like she’s just… an asshole.

    5. ten-four*

      Wait hold on – could she have mean “I’m trying to figure out your deal” rather than “I’m trying to remember your name?” Like: first you ask me to stop clipping my nails in the office, and NOW you’re spouting pleasantries? Who even are you?”

      Doesn’t make it one jot less rude, mind you. I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that she’s trying to pretend she literally has no idea who you are – that’s just bonkers.

      1. Easily Amused*

        This was my read on her response as well. Still incredibly rude but maybe not quite as out of left field as I don’t recognize you at all.

    6. Nines*

      She really sounds like an actual child. Like she truly has no concept of societal norms around anything that could be perceived as an argument or disagreement. Like a tantrum or something.

    7. valentine*

      I would be annoyed you reminded me not even the bathroom’s private and doubled down on a question your culture’s politeness requires I answer with a lie. Imagine she’s never heard clipping in public is rude (like the OP whose father and brothers let her believe burping/farting was impossible to do quietly and therefore just fine to do at an office desk), you really are the only one who’s mentioned it, and she thinks you’re out of line for saying anything. She may feel targeted (as in ten-four’s paragraph about “Who even are you?”). If you can’t move away from the gross grooming and a higher-up won’t tell her to stop, find a way to reframe it as background noise and let her be.

    1. Spider*

      Now that’s some quality satire right there.

      Like, she starts playing tennis at 7:30 AM but then heads to her office at 8:30 AM. What kind of tennis can you play and have time to shower/dress/dry hair/put on makeup in one hour?

  67. What is porn anyway?*

    I’ve been thinking a lot about this question since last week’s discussion of the job applicant fired for viewing porn at work. I agree with the many, many commentators who said that viewing porn at work or on work devices is unacceptable. But it did make me think…how have we been defining porn? I think most people have been assuming images or video, but what about other kinds of pornographic material? When does something become unacceptable for work?

    The two examples I have been thinking about are romance novels and fanfiction. Both of these kinds of media often have pornographic elements – sometimes only a small fraction of the work, sometimes the entire thing is basically smut. But text is obviously not audio/visual, so it wouldn’t “stand out” the same way that viewing an image might. Is reading a romance novel at work not acceptable? What about fanfiction? What percentage of the fanfiction or romance novel (especially a digital edition, on a work computer) would have to be pornographic for this to be unacceptable? Is kissing okay, but explicit scenes are a no-go?

    A few commentators remarked something along the lines of you should not do anything at work that could make you aroused, which is interesting. What if you’re reading a steamy scene in a romance novel over your lunch break? Or, for that matter, a lot of literary fiction has sex scenes. So where do we draw the line? If reading the news on your computer at work, or bringing a magazine in to read over lunch is okay, then is a novel okay to bring in? If a novel, then why not a romance novel? What about fanfic? Where do we draw the line, basically, in what is “too pornographic” for work-time viewing, whether on a work machine or not?

    I’m really interested to hear what you guys think about this!

    1. BigSigh*

      I was recently blocked from a site on my work computer for “viewing material of a pornographic nature.” While at first terrified, I talk myself down like this:

      Well I’m on my lunch and it’s a book!
      Wait a minute, this is just a romance novel.
      Hey, it’s a gay romance novel and I’ve never been blocked while reading a straight romance novel.
      Wow, I HOPE someone tries to bring this up, because I have THOUGHTS.

    2. Emi.*

      My take on this is basically that the workplace should be extremely non-sexual. “Don’t do anything at work that makes you aroused” sounds like a good rule, and also a pretty easy bar to clear. When in doubt, just leave it home, and if you end up being “too conservative” then … you have to wait til 5:00 to finish Lady Chatterley’s Lover, which has minimal if any impact on anyone’s well-being.

    3. Maya Elena*

      If a man, avoid anything sexual at all costs, as no good can come of it. If a woman, you can have your 50 Shades in any format that isn’t print, and it probably doesn’t matter – just don’t use the work computer or turn the volume up too high.

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Haha, a friend said her coworker would listen to audio books while she worked (not weird). Well, one day she accidentally had her speaker on or hadn’t plugged in her headphones all the way and everyone around them heard a couple of sentences of a romance novel before she turned it off, completely mortified!

        I think just avoiding explicit sexual material at work is a good idea. Reading, viewing, listening, whatever.

    4. bb-great*

      Would you want your coworkers or boss to read it over your shoulder? If not, don’t bring it to work.

    5. Tardigrade*

      This is an interesting question, and I think this is one of those situations where intent matters. If you’re watching porn (videos, magazines, whatever), then you probably intend to be aroused. That’s an absolute NO at work. But people don’t always intend to be aroused by literature, even romance novels or fanfics, so there’s some gray area here where I’d say conditionally OK, but (1) if you know that’s going to be a trigger for you, then don’t read it at work and (2) don’t read it at work if you know it’s outright smut. And I’m talking about a physical book or something on your own device.

      1. Tardigrade*

        And if it turns out to be smut or you get to a steamy part, stop reading it and put it away. (I don’t read romance but I’ve had this happen with other novels. Like, c’mon, why did I have to hit this part now at work?)

    6. Temperance*

      Nothing sexual on your work computer or in view of your coworkers, unless you’re both at Hedonism or something.

    7. Dragoning*

      One of my coworkers had her contract cancelled and we found a romance novel while packing up her things for her, and eyebrows definitely went up.

      We also started laughing, so.

      …I wouldn’t recommend that, either.

    8. Lissa*

      I’d stay away from anything even remotely questionable on a work computer. But I wouldn’t have a problem reading a romance novel on my lunch break unless the cover were extremely steamy, in which case I’d avoid it. So I think the line is a lot more clear for “on work computer”. I do think that images are going to be far more likely to get someone in trouble than text, and also there’s a “what is the purpose of the material” question, ie someone reading NC17 fanfic is obviously intentionally choosing to consume that material at work, whereas if they are looking at like, the news in the 1990s and details from the Starr Report come up, that’s not really the intention of the news to cause those…feelings.

    9. Enough*

      This made me think about high school when I was reading ‘Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex But we’re Afraid to Ask. I made a book cover for it just like my textbooks.

        1. Elizabeth W.*

          We traded Judy Blume’s Forever in class. Nobody read it there but it definitely made the rounds.

    10. Nacho*

      I occasionally read pornographic fan fics at work, but only ever on my phone. A good rule of thumb is never to do anything on a work computer you wouldn’t do if your boss was looking over your shoulder.

    12. The Person from the Resume*

      I would never read fan fiction at work and I read a lot of fanfic at home. I’d also never read a romance novel at work either. Or any book really. AAM is okay. Online newspapers. Advice columns. Definitely not fanfic.

  68. As Close As Breakfast*

    How does it work when new, high-level executive, brings people into their new company? An old colleague of mine recently took over as the head of a medium size (~1000 employees) company. I’m meeting him for lunch today and then going to take a look at the local facility. I know that he wants to bring me in, and quite honestly, I’m freaking out a bit. I’ve never been in this position, of being offered a job without the standard kind of interview process, before. A few of the things I’m worried about really revolve around how it’s preceived by current employees when something like this happens. Are people resentful? Scared of the new person? Anyone have any advice or experience they can share about how this type of on-boarding has gone for them or how they’ve witnessed it going?

    1. Catleesi*

      I wouldn’t say scared (depending on the circumstances) – but it will likely be something people make note of and are aware of. At my last job when we got a new CEO, over the course of the next year there was a definite trickling in of people from the area the CEO was from. For the most part, the majority of us reserved judgement based on the qualifications of the individual (and they did seem to be qualified for the most part). However, I think ultimately it depends on the situation you are going into. Are people being moved/demoted/fired to make a position for you? Are you qualified? Depending on how the hiring is done and the circumstances will probably make a huge difference in how people react.

    2. jm*

      We have a new CEO and he brought in two people, who are now second and third in command. Our former CEO retired and many of the top people retired along with her. Thankfully, the new CEO and new leaders are excellent, and the whole organization feels fresh and new. Employees have happily embraced the new folks, because they have such a positive outlook, but I think some people do feel a sense of fear/worry and the need to make a great impression.

  69. Married man “blackmailed” with Tinder account…he created at work*

    Wife recently found Husband’s active Tinder account and flipped out. Husband said he and his buddies at work all made “fake” Tinder accounts as a “joke” a few years ago, but the account is in Husband’s real name and has pictures of him. Husband is a sheriff for a small town and tends to have a lot of “downtime” at work. According to Husband, him and the guys created Tinder accounts to see who got the most girls to “swipe right” as a way to kill time. Husband said the account was deleted years ago (after the “contest” was over), but it was somehow hacked and used without his permission. Husband said he was then blackmailed for $5 million when he tried to have the account deleted, but it was eventually deleted by Tinder IT. Husband thinks the situation is resolved, but Wife is still upset and is threatening divorce. Husband keeps saying Wife is being overly emotional and overreacting. Wife is upset Husband is not taking the situation seriously and is concerned what else he might be doing while at work that he isn’t supposed to be. Wife wants to contact town officials to let them know the “good ol’ boys” are chasing women on online dating sites while on duty.

    Is this something married men in their late-30s tend to do as “joke”? Is it common for some random nobody to have their Tinder account hacked and “blackmailed” for millions of dollars? Would telling the town about this “contest” actually do anything? Wife doesn’t want Husband to get fired, but she would like there to be some kind of consequences since Husband won’t admit any wrongdoing.

    1. blackcat*

      Um, if I were in the jurisdiction I’d be super uncomfortable with that. Seems like a recipe for an HR disaster, too. I doubt the town officials would care if they are also all male (they may protect the good old boys), but maybe local news paper would?
      But unless you are the wife or someone one of these guys has creeped on, I’d back away. This sounds like a dumpster fire.

    2. KatieKate*

      No. He’s lying. And the odds are abysmally low that this was actually something that happened at work, so she should keep it between her and her husband. Time for couple’s therapy.

      1. bb-great*

        Yes, all this. Dude was trying to step out on his wife and made up an absurd story to cover his tracks. This has nothing to do with work.

    3. Graciosa*

      No, this is not something married men do as a joke.

      No, it is not common for a random nobody to be “blackmailed” for millions for having a tinder account.

      No, telling the town about this contest would not do anything to help the situation.

      My recommendation here is ChumpLady.com.

      Wife seems to be trying desperately to get Husband “punished” in some way. This accomplishes nothing. Wife needs to decide if the relationship with this */?#! is acceptable to her. If it is, there’s no point in complaining or trying to sabotage him at work. If it isn’t, she needs to get herself to a divorce attorney.

      In either case, he is not going to admit any wrongdoing – there’s no benefit to him – so she needs to give up on that as a goal.

      I am sorry Wife is going through this.

    4. Kasia*

      Husband is definitely cheating/trying to cheat on his wife and is making up outrageous lies (blackmailed for $5million??) to cover it up.

    5. animaniactoo*

      Husband needs to show wife the correspondence from the blackmailer/Tinder IT.

      There’s potential that a particularly juvenile group of guys might do this, but IF SO that would be just as bad in the position that he’s holding.

      Plus – “really honey? if it was so innocent, you were so innocent, wtf is this the first I’m hearing about it?” aka “Don’t try to sell me that snowjob. It’s insulting.” Literally, just straight up tell him it’s insulting that he thinks she can’t see through this ridiculous story.

    7. Rebecca in Dallas*

      No, that is not a thing that married coworkers would do as a joke. Husband got busted and made up outrageous lies to cover it up.

    8. Temperance*

      Husband is a liar and doubling down on his lies. I think Wife knows better. Marriage counseling, stat, if you want to save the marriage.

      I’m assuming that the Husband is a cop or something in a small town. The problem is, what will actually happen if she pushes the issue, assuming that I’m culturally correct on this, is that it will blow up in her face. Use of the term “good ol’ boys” is kind of a tell that it’s going to hurt her, not him.

    10. ACDC*

      This is a load of bull. This is the exact kind of nonsense people make up when they get caught doing something they shouldn’t have. He’s not taking the “blackmailing” seriously because he’s not being blackmailed. Ugh…

    12. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      DTMFA

      He’s a lying POS. Blackmailing random guys on Tinder is a losing proposition… how many of them have kind of money to be worth it? That’s stupid. This is all stupid.

      Wife, why would you try and save a marriage to this chump? The town might or might not care, since the “good ol’ boys” tend to be strong, but there is no reason you have to put up with this BS in your personal life.

    13. Close Bracket*

      Honestly? Married men objectifying women as a game at work? Yup, totally believable.

      Could he also be cheating and lying his @ss off about it? Yup. Also totally believable.

      This is like a douchebag menu of choose 1 from column A and 1 from column B.

    14. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Take it from one who knows. She needs to get out. Given his role, though, she may need to ratchet down the rage and start some discrete planning and figure out her safety and her exit strategy. Because he’s lying. And she can’t trust him. She can lie to herself, and /or she can pretend to trust him. But in her heart of hearts – if she stays out of the world of denial – she knows the truth.

    15. LilySparrow*

      Wife is trying to do her Denial, Anger, and Bargaining stages all at once.

      If she doesn’t want him to get fired, she shouldn’t bring it up to his employer. She should use the EAP or health insurance to find a counselor and/or couple’s therapist. She will need them.

      She may also need a forensic accountant, to find out where the $5 million came from. Because obviously you can’t be blackmailed for $5m if you don’t have it.

  70. Boredatwork*

    Hey guys – I would really appreciate some help with a situation I have gotten myself into –

    I am the cake fairy – it started with me and a co-worker making cakes for everyone’s birthdays. Which wasn’t that bad maybe 4 cakes a year but the co-worker doesn’t seem to want to do this anymore. So now I have to remember when everyone’s birthday is, ask them what kind of cake they want and then make that cake for the team.

    I need suggestions on how to make the birthday cakes stop? Do I just let it fade? Do I make an announcement? What do I do if I get push back? We only have one birthday left, so I’m hoping new year, no more cakes.

    Thank you in advance. I know I did this to myself. as additional info, I pay for these cakes myself, so there’s no “budget” to just buy cakes.

    1. animaniactoo*

      At that party/group, put it out there “Hey all – while I’ve enjoyed this and have been happy to contribute, I’m the only one doing this now, and it’s become more than I can keep up with. Going forward, we’ll have to figure out some other way of doing this if we want to continue it. I’m open to any ideas that don’t involve me making the cakes all the time!”

      and then just step back… let someone else take the lead on figuring out what to do when the next birthday rolls around.

      1. Boredatwork*

        I really like the script – I think I’m going to combine it with “Reba’s” advice below and if badgered just be honest and say I don’t have time to make cakes on random Wednesdays.

        Part of the problem is power dynamics too – the person who started this, is the department admin, who I make considerable more money than, and I’m worried that when I stop she’ll feel pressured to take up the mantel.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Ah! If that begins to happen, you can support her by saying “Hey – I’m stopping because the pressure became too much for me. I’m open to ideas, I’m not up for pressuring someone else to be the one who does it! If she doesn’t want to do it anymore, she doesn’t. Let’s find a different path here.”

    2. Reba*

      Remember that you in no way “have to” do this! From reading this site, I know that people can be weirdly entitled about this stuff! But don’t be badgered.

      I think your idea about doing it once more and then making it a new year thing would work well — if anybody brings it up, you have a natural framing of “this year, I’m [whatever instead of baking, or only baking for X].”

      Depending on your office, I think a short announcement, or spreading the news to a few people who will see it widely shared, would make sense, since you don’t want January people to potentially worry that it’s personal, rather than a policy.

      1. Boredatwork*

        I am the first Birthday of the year and have made it clear I do not want anything. Thanks for the advice. I need to internalize that I am not required to provide cake.

    3. Notthemomma*

      After the last birthday, bring in one more cake before the end of the year. Sent an announcement to all that this one to to celebrate the ‘retirement’ of the cake fairy. Spin it as tho the cake fairy isn’t you and depending how far you want to take it, have a backstory of the retirement village the are moving to, the travels they will be undertaking, etc. and if anyone asks for an exception, just respond with an ‘I’m sorry, that just isn’t possible; have you tried XYZ Bakery?

    4. CBE*

      This is great timing. You can easily say “At the end of 2018, I am retiring my cake birthday cake baking. It’s been fun but the time has come to move on.”

      1. Boredatwork*

        Yeh, I think making an announcement when I do the “last one” is the more direct way to just end it. I wouldn’t mind if some of my 14 other co-workers pitched in but it’s a bit much by myself.

    5. ACDC*

      There was an AAM post about this once, or at least similar. The OP in that case became the office quilt-maker. The only difference was that she got an assigned budget for it.

      I like the idea of finishing out the year with one last cake, and then making an unofficial announcement that you’re really focusing on your personal finances and budget in the new year and won’t be able to make cakes any more.

      1. Boredatwork*

        It’s actually the time commitment – if everyone’s Birthday was on a Monday, the fairy would continue. I just cannot frost/decorate another cake at 9pm after working 10 hours.

        1. ACDC*

          I totally get that! I was just pointing out the difference between the similar AAM post and yours. The OP in that case also mentioned the time constraint being a huge factor.

          1. Boredatwork*

            I can totally relate to that post. If I have one piece of advice for anyone in the working world, it’s to never do something once you aren’t willing to do forever!

    6. WellRed*

      “now I have to remember when everyone’s birthday is, ask them what kind of cake they want and then make that cake for the team.”

      No, actually, you don’t.

    7. BluntBunny*

      In UK it is the birthday person themselves who bring in cake and they receive a card from their coworkers. If it’s an important birthday the coworkers might chip in for some gifts. A really non-confrontational thing you could be to bring in awful cakes, for example bring in odd flavoured or super healthy cakes, they will be less likely to access you again

    8. valentine*

      After the last one this year (so people don’t spend the party whining at or begging you), send an email saying you’re leaving it there. Don’t give them an inch by sounding regretful or lonely. Just shrug off the burden you placed on yourself. Fly and be free. I would just be done, but you could try saving the money, seeing how you feel about it, and, if you still want to spend it, do something fun for yourself.

  71. Chitty*

    We recently had a seat swap, and I discovered a huge problem about myself – I chit chat way too much.
    I used to sit next a lady who was friendly and also very chatty with me. As a result, I built up a habit of chatting to her about things, both work and not work related throughout the day. Because she was so smiley and friendly, I never thought it was anything but good old friendly co-worker behaviour.
    After there was a reorg and I got a new seat, my neighbour, while nice, was definitely not as chatty. In fact, once or twice, he asked me to leave him alone, he needs to finish this report.
    I realised, to my eternal shame, that I must be one of those irritating chatters that prompts askamanager submissions!
    I have taken steps to read the room, reign in my chatting to only when somebody else initiates the chatting. Sometimes I still forget, only realising I gone and done it again, but I think I have improved a lot since before.
     

    1. As Close As Breakfast*

      Noticing this was a huge first step! And staying aware of it is awesome of you! Since you admitted that you still catch yourself forgetting and being chatty, you might consider mentioning something to your new neighbor(s) like ‘I know I sometimes get overly chatty without meaning to or even noticing, so feel free to let me know when you’re busy (or whatever), I won’t be offended or anything.’ For me, something like this would take a ton of pressure off. By the time I worked the nerve up to actually saying something like your new neighbor did, I would be WAY passed annoyed. As long as you truly wouldn’t be offended or annoyed, which would hopefully be the case since it’s something you’ve noticed and want to work on, it could help your neighbor(s) feel more comfortable.

    2. valentine*

      As someone whose dream job ad would call for an arctic, dimly lit, corner with no other human noise, thank you for dialing it back. In case the chatty person didn’t know how to ask you to rein it in, maybe give yourself something like a two-minute limit for a while and see how it goes.

  72. Yet Another Anon Rambling*

    I frequently go through swings of really, really loving my job, hating it with the passionate intensity of a thousand suns, or feeling maudlin and numb about it all. This isn’t healthy! I applied for a few other jobs recently, but no joy as yet – and then I get a couple of truly great days at work and think “I can do this – I do love this stuff, and I’m great at it; I can ignore/get past the *other* bits.” Things change, situations change. It might be better next year…. And I DO love it, I really do.

    But then I wake up with anxiety at 2am with a sweat because of deadlines, staffing issues and some generally toxic situations in the workplace, and tell myself the *other* bits are actually bigger than the great bits. And. Well. Then I’m left fairly sleep deprived writing drivel on Ask A Manager. So… there’s that. :)

    1. WellRed*

      Keep applying. If this was a love relationship and your partner was abusive and had you all on eggshells most of the time, but then was all amazing and loving, well it’s not gonna change.

    2. Ron McDon*

      Same here!

      I’ve been in my job for about 9 years and have hated/loved it for at least 7 years!

      I’ve been looking for other jobs throughout that time, but there are lots of advantages to my job which I am reluctant to give up.

      So, I keep prevaricating…

  73. Ye old*

    A colleague recently mentioned something to me about career changes when in your late 30s… She said that it is really tough for people to accept your application, because they usually prefer younger people. The only way to get your foot in is with a recommendation.
    Is that really the case now?

      1. Catleesi*

        You can often guess (or at least think you are guessing) age based on previous work history and if they have a degree when it was awarded. Even if it’s not purposeful.

    2. Ali G*

      Maybe in some industries or positions. But if someone is hiring a senior level position, wouldn’t they want someone with more relevant experience?
      I accepted a job offer 3 weeks before my 40th birthday, and before that I had a lot of interest in other jobs I applied for, so it’s not the entire reality of today.
      Not sure if it mattered or not, but I did take the dates of the my degrees off my resume.

    3. jm*

      That is super depressing. I know this happens (wrongly so) when applicants are in their 50s and 60s, but late 30s???

      1. Quinoa*

        I just turned 51 and changed careers and was interviewed for 75% of the positions I applied for, even before I got my qualifying degree. There are people out there who will want you. You just have to do the work. (And follow AAM’s killer cover letter advice.)

  74. NewMom*

    Update on the all day interview w/ pumping breaks.
    There was exactly one person who was an unreasonable ass about it and made a couple of comments about how “candidates don’t normally get any breaks.” He was the one who had sent the “there’s no where to leave a pump but also don’t bring a roller bag” email. And there was indeed a place I could leave my stuff. Hiring manager seemed peeved that I had been told otherwise–he gave me a spare key to his office and I left stuff there.
    Everyone else was lovely, including another woman woman who pointed to her own pump when I said I needed to end our meeting 5 minutes early to ensure time to pump. Her kid actually shared a birthday with mine!
    Unclear how much the role would involve the ass. If I get an offer, that will be my top question.

    1. Red Reader*

      “Unclear how much the role would include the ass.”

      And your honor, that was when I decided that skimming posts is a bad idea.

    2. Emi.*

      What a turd. Good luck! The manager gave you a key to his office at an interview?? That sounds like a pretty great person to work for.

    3. zora*

      YAY!! I was one of the people who told you to ignore the dumb direction to not bring a roller bag and to just do what you need to do. And I’m so glad we were right and it all worked out!! I just knew that either way, the situation was going to give you a lot of info about the company. And it did! So happy it went well, and wishing you the best of luck!

    4. No Name Yet*

      I was thinking of you, glad to hear it worked out so well! And hey, you learned something very valuable about a possible coworker.

  75. MsChanandlerBong*

    Be a manager, they said. It will be fun, they said. I’m new to management, and although it’s been going well, I had a bit of a setback yesterday. I told one of our freelancers that she has to follow our required style guide, and she sent a paragraph-long message that accused me of having a personal vendetta against her. Not only did she do that, but she also called our CEO on his cell phone (I have no idea how she got the number; I didn’t even have his cell phone number until last week!) to complain.

    Thankfully, my boss totally backed me up and said I did nothing wrong, but it really stinks to be accused of being mean to someone just because you asked her to follow instructions. She also said “I never have these problems with Wakeen” (Wakeen is my colleague). Well, the reason she never has problems with Wakeen is because Wakeen is conflict-avoidant. He notices the same mistakes I do, but he will just fix them and not say anything because he doesn’t want to deal with any complaining or arguing. He is a great coworker otherwise, but I wish he would be a bit firmer. When he doesn’t say anything, writers get it into their heads that they’re doing everything right, and then I come along and ask them to fix something and they tell me, “Well, I’ve written 20+ buying guides for you, and no one else has ever complained.”

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Employee accused me of ranting and raving (gendered much?) when I gave him feedback. Of course, that’s nothing compared to when he accused me of lynching him when I gave him feedback.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I just couldn’t believe it when I got the message. This all started about six months ago. I told her that she can’t keep claiming assignments and then asking us to reassign them three hours before they’re due. She hasn’t liked me ever since then. If she calls the office, she asks to speak to Wakeen. She will also email Wakeen directly instead of using the group email that we set up for writers to ask questions and share concerns.

        What bothers me about this person is that she seems to think we owe her a job. She has chronic health problems, which I completely understand. I’ve had health issues since the day I was born, 15 surgeries, about 30+ hospitalizations, maybe 30 or 40 ER visits, etc. However, I realize that no matter how much my coworkers and boss like me, if I kept no-showing at work, they’d have to let me go. This person seems to think that because she has health issues, we should be totally okay with her missing deadlines or claiming an assignment and then asking for it to be reassigned two hours before it’s due because doesn’t feel well. When I reached out to her to explain that we need her to meet deadlines and offer her some tips that might help (e.g. if you claim a task due in 10 days, don’t wait until day 9.5 to start working on it; work on it ASAP so that you can turn it in early and you’re not in a panic when you have a health emergency on day 10), she seemed put off that I would suggest that she has to meet her deadlines.

        1. Teapot librarian*

          I feel for you. My employee just misses the deadlines and says “I couldn’t get it to you because I was out sick.” (And he doesn’t have chronic health problems. He just calls out when he has deadlines. Or forgets to send things until the day after they’re due.)
          I should have said in my first reply that I’m glad your boss has your back!

        2. WellRed*

          So, how long before you can let her services go? Cause, this is not going to get better and it’s not like there aren’t plenty of freelancers looking for work.

  76. Erin*

    Guys, one year ago to the day from the Schoharie limo accident I was in a limo (probably the same one) with that driver and had a bad experience. We all felt uncomfortable with his driving but tried to put it aside for our friends’ wedding day and let it roll off our backs.

    One of the first thing I thought of when I saw the accident and got the details was when people write in here saying they’re uncomfortable with their coworkers driving, but they have to ride with them for carpooling, or on a business trip, or what have you.

    Please, please get out of the car if the driving is erratic or you have a horrible gut feeling. Even if it’ s a coworker, even if it’s a boss.

    1. betty (the other betty)*

      Good advice.

      Best to say, “I don’t feel safe. Please stop.” but that won’t always work. It can be hard to go against the group (or the boss) if you feel like you are being ignored over the safety issue. I think in that case it’s ok to make up an excuse such as, “I feel really car sick and I’m going to throw up so I have to get out now.”

    2. Artemesia*

      One of the little children killed by her intoxicated Aunt driving wrong way on the parkway had texted her parents early in the ride that something was wrong and she was afraid. The parents tried to intervene but it was too late. What a horrible situation; glad you survived your ride and good advice for us all.

    3. valentine*

      Yes. If you crash, you won’t get there and, if you don’t, no harm done. Anyone who’s hurt you don’t trust them is just reinforcing the feeling.

  77. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    This will probably be my last post about this. Well, the saga of non working coworker continues. He easily spends 5+ hours a day scrolling through his phone, going on break, etc. This has been going on for months now. I am swamped. I can’t get all my work done, we’re not allowed overtime (we’re non-exempt), and it is beyond frustrating sitting here watching him hunched over his phone goofing off while I’m struggling.

    The icing on the proverbial cake occurred last Friday. My managers literally screamed at me because I told someone I couldn’t get to something for them until the next day because I was too busy. And I mean, me sitting in a chair, them standing and pointing fingers at me, yelling, telling me they never want to hear that again. I kept my cool. I said, I am overwhelmed and need help. Answer – then you need to tell us what you need help with. OK, I said, I need help with X and Y (one of them being the thing I couldn’t get to). Answer – “I don’t understand what is taking you so long that you can’t get to your work”. Really? It’s my work load! It’s disproportionate to the time I have to do it! It’s not hard.

    This week, I ran into another issue – same thing, too much work, not enough time, tracked down a manager – explained what I had to do, the time needed (which exceeded the time in the day), and asked what I should prioritize and if I could get help. Answer – manager was too busy to find help for me, and I needed to do the best I could.

    No amount of the words and phrases I’ve seen suggested by Alison and everyone here make any difference. Basically, I am overwhelmed, can’t do all my work, and when I ask for help, I’m not given help, I’m quizzed as to why I can’t get to everything…but my office mate is being allowed to not work for at least half the day. I really feel like I’m in an upside down world, or some sort of game show.

    I have plans to leave the state once some things in my personal life are resolved, maybe in the next 6 months, year, or so, and prior to all of this I was open with my managers and was willing to give a long notice period so they could hire someone and I could train them to do my job. I’ve reconsidered. They’ll get the standard 2 week notice, that’s it, and NO interaction after I walk out the door. For right now, I’m keeping my mouth shut, doing what I can, and just getting through each day as best I can. I’d love to walk away and never return but I have bills to pay, I have decent insurance and paid time off here, and jobs that have both in this area are few and far between.

    And yes, I should be working right now, but I’ve decided if my office mate can go for breaks outside to smoke and goof off more than half the day, I can take 10 minutes to type on AAM.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would be so tempted to say “I need Fred to do X and Y so that I can do Z. He appears to have some extra time available.”

      1. Catleesi*

        Yeah – I haven’t been following this story but can you specifically bring up that you want Fred to help? Mentioning that it looks like he finished up his projects/tasks etc.

      2. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

        And I tried that too. The answer was “we can’t trust him to do it right”. I’m not joking.

          1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

            Exactly. I know work has been taken away from him, but still coded to him in our computer system, but other people are actually doing it.

        2. animaniactoo*

          “That’s really unfortunate, but since I can’t handle all of this AND that, either he will have to do it or it won’t get done until X.”

          Turn it back on them immediately. Keep repeating or drilling down what can be handled by him. “No? Okay, can he be trusted to do Z then? What about G, H, or I?”

          Also – clearly, YOU are the person they count and rely on, you’re the only one who can be trusted? Alright then… they won’t be firing YOU anytime soon. “Excuse me. You WILL not yell at me because he can’t be trusted to do half of these things, and I can’t handle them without help. Either tell me what the priority is or I will go choose it myself, but I will not stand here and be yelled at by you for not being able to do 70 hours of work in 40 hours.” and if they keep yelling, stand up and walk away “Pardon me, I have work to do, I don’t have time for this.” Get up and walk back to your desk and get back to work.

          Also “If you don’t want to hear it again, get me some competent help or you will continue to hear about it regularly.”

          Understand… you clearly have leverage here because they aren’t firing him… and they can’t AFFORD to fire you. That lets you push back harder and take no nonsense about how this is your fault.

          Note: These are not things you should do in a healthy office environment. Keep that in mind. They are, however, necessary for managing the toxic one you’re in.

          1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

            I realized something – managers have been under pressure because several staff members jumped ship to another local company, and their bosses aren’t happy, as it’s too hard to replace people with the wages and benefits offered. I have decent vacation time and pay, but only due to the years of service and they were grandfathered in from years ago before our company was purchased by the current owners. We’ve lost good workers, can’t replace the experience and the people they have hired have been less than competent. I imagine the managers are feeling stress too, and are hiding my office mate’s behavior as firing him will alert their managers to yet another problem.

            1. animaniactoo*

              And thus the dynamics here mean you actually have a lot more power to stand up to this kind of treatment. Right down to walking out of the office entirely for the rest of the day if you need to in order to make the point that you WILL NOT sit there and be yelled at, blamed, gaslighted, or scapegoated for the fact that he’s incompetent and your workload is unmanageable.

              Are they picking up slack from employees who left and running around trying to cover everything themselves also? If so, I would work towards a “We’re going to have to triage, I’m willing to work to do that with you. But I have a limit to how much I can do and if you can’t recognize that, I’m going to be the next person out the door. Do you want me on your team or do you want to see my taildust?”

              1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

                I am looking now. I wasn’t going to, because leaving a job I can do while practically asleep, and then learning something new isn’t really appealing to me…especially when I don’t plan to be in the area long term any longer. But it might be time to do it anyway, just for my own peace of mind.

                1. animaniactoo*

                  Right, and ultimately you may need to move – but what I’m saying here is that prior to actually finding something, you have a LOT of leverage to push back hard when they try to pile you down and blame/yell/scapegoat you. YOU are the employee they can’t afford to lose. Use that to draw some boundaries when they’re trying to yell at you or blame you for the unmanageable workload. “Fred can’t do it? I don’t have enough time either, so either he does it or it waits.” “Fine, let’s take a look at what I’m managing and see what Fred CAN be trusted with”. “What am I doing with all my time? Cramming 50 hours worth into 40. Sorry, I can’t magically make 70 happen. If you can’t prioritize this for me, I’ll do that myself, but something is not going to happen [today/this week/this month].” and if they yell at you, literally stop them “I am not willing to stand here and have you yell at me for not being able to do 70 hours of work in 40 (or whatever you’re actually working)”. Walk away from them, out of their office, out of the building if need be. Come back after they’re good and scared that you’re going to walk all the way away. If it gets to that point, that’s when it might be worthwhile to try the avenue I was referring to above about “I can be on your team or I can be out the door, which would you prefer?” as a lever towards getting them to back off rolling the crap downhill on to you.

                  Possibly you can improve life for yourself enough to be manageable, but maybe not and that’s why looking in the meantime is a good option. But if it makes life even a little more tolerable while you look, it’s worth the pushback to completely call them out on the fact that right now they need you a lot more than you need them and you’re not okay standing around being treated like an underperforming employee when you are in fact carrying them.

                2. Ender Wiggin*

                  I agree with animaniactoo. You have more power than you realise in this position. Use it.

                  Honestly in your situation I would go into my managers office on a relatively calm morning and lay it out. Point out you are doing your job and Fred’s job and you have been watching him goof off on his phone for 5 hours a day wirh impunity while you get yelled at for not being able to do two people’s jobs at once. Tell them you’re not taking this anymore. Tell them they either get Fred to do some work or else you’re going to just start goofing off too because why should you do any work when he doesn’t have to.

                3. animaniactoo*

                  I would not go that far – I’m suggesting some boundary drawing that you should never ever do in a professional well-run office (because it would be a) out of place and b) unnecessary). I am not suggesting dropping so far into threatening to become a completely unprofessional goofing off non-working employee. The point is to maintain as much professionalism as possible and threatening to become another problem employee is not doing that.

              2. BluntBunny*

                Yes totally agree. Calmly state that yelling at you is giving you less motivation to get to their work. And if the truly care about getting it done then they need to X and Y.

    2. valentine*

      If you’re sure they wouldn’t fire you on the spot during one of their tirades, or for giving notice, are the benefits of staying, especially since you don’t know that/when you can leave the state, worth the toll on your health? What if, in six months or a year, you aren’t well enough to resign/move/job-search?

  78. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    What could your workplace offer that would genuinely support your “wellness”? (I’m thinking wellness broadly: mental, physical, social, emotional, etc.) Let’s assume the organization has generous PTO and the flexibility to use it.

    There’s nothing behind this question… I’m not on a wellness committee or anything. I’m just thinking about how workplaces can be designed to support healthy humans.

    Off the top of my head, here are some things I’ve been thinking about:

    – Access to a gym onsite or very close, with classes designed to be doable over lunch and immediately before or after work
    – Windows & natural light accessible to all staff (not just offices and conference rooms)
    – Health benefits that cover treatments and support beyond medical care: nutritionists, massage, etc.
    – Whole office closes for a week at some point during the year.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Core hours over butt-in-the-seat. (i.e. trust us to be adults and manage our hours and workloads, stop operating on everybody must be available for full hours in case of a drop-everything all-hands-on-deck that rarely happens or should happen.)

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Yeah, I really like the idea of core hours –it puts some guidelines around flexibility that (IMO) makes people more able to actually take advantage of the flexibility.

    2. LCL*

      A decent cafeteria, available 24/7 for all employees, that has food available beyond chips and soda. Even a cold case stocked with good entrees and a microwave would be a good start.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Oh yeah… a cafeteria with a robust salad bar. That would be genuinely life-changing for me.

      2. zora*

        Healthy food available. Some of our offices stock snacks, but it’s all unhealthy stuff. And when I see it every time I walk in and out of the kitchen, it’s almost impossible to keep my willpower up. I end up caving and eating junk food almost constantly.

        In our office, I order the snacks and constantly check in with my team about what they want, so we keep to healthy stuff. Low sodium popcorn, clif bars, nuts and dried fruit, La Croix instead of soda, hummus and veggies, and I only stock chocolate occasionally.

        And I agree with a good, full kitchen (freezer, toaster oven, microwave) so that I can bring and prepare food from home that is more healthy.

    3. Enginerd*

      I’ve seen companies install software on their workstations that lock the screen for 15 minutes every hour or so and prompted the employee to get up and move around. I’ve always heard about the dangers of office jobs and being stagnant for too many hours a day and always thought this was a great was to address it.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I love the idea of prompting breaks (and use the pomodoro technique as a practice for myself) but, yikes, I wouldn’t be comfortable with enforced shutdowns. What if I’m on a call and need to pull up a document? What if I’m scrambling to get a grant application in?

    4. CatCat*

      I think it would be great if there was a push to make resources available to employees to start their own groups that could meet periodically lunch time-ish on whatever topic the employees were interested in. There was an elder care course here and it was clear from the course that employees could benefit from a support network. A lot of us were so relieved to be able to just talk about struggles during his short course, but man, it would have been so great if there could be an at-work eldercare meetup maybe once per month or so.

      1. zora*

        Yes, desk adjustments available upon request.
        We have a policy that is standing desks only with a doctor’s note. And that means that several people who really need one are not getting one, because they either don’t have time to get to the doctor, or they have recently moved to the area and don’t have a doctor yet, and that whole process is just too daunting.

    6. Quill*

      Be more understanding about not pushing weight loss events, etc.

      There are thousands of reasons not to make weight loss a competition (especially not one where other people can keep checking on each other’s rankings!) but it’s really becoming an irritation in my workspace. Can’t seem to talk to the other ladies without it coming up. Thankfully I’m spared prompting to join because I’m of strictly average size, but the last thing I want to do is explain to people that 100% of my excercise efforts have to go into making sure I can deal with current health issues and that it would be a terrible idea to futz with my diet.

      And anyone in the office who’s ever had an eating disorder is surely feeling this 1000% worse.

    8. Overeducated*

      Showers. Standing desks. Sufficient kitchen equipment to bring and prepare warm food. A generous WFH policy so people can avoid spreading illness. Core hours and optional/variable lunch breaks, when job duties are compatible, so we don’t have to worry about supervisory approval for small deviations from schedule. If we’re going to go big picture, office design that takes into account people’s needs for both concentration and human interaction.

    9. Jennifer*

      Have enough staff so that everyone is not drowning and overwhelmed, but that won’t happen in a billion years.

    10. Chaordic One*

      No onsite gym, please. I don’t want exercise with my coworkers. I see too much of them already. Maybe a paid membership to a gym away from the workplace instead.

      1. Lissa*

        I don’t think this is a reason NOT to have an onsite gym, though. I mean, there’s nothing listed that everyone is going to take advantage of, so if they don’t do something because not everybody will use it then they’ll just end up not doing anything.

    11. MeowYorker*

      I’d love the ability to take a real lunch hour, instead of eating it in front of my computer every day. I don’t mind it most of the time, as I’d rather get out at the end of the day earlier than push it back by an hour to account for the lunch hour, but some days, I want to get outside, breathe deep and walk around. There’s nothing stopping me from doing it officially now, but I’d love a culture that embraces a real lunch break.

    12. valentine*

      No sound from other humans, catered workday, arctic climate, dimmed lighting, comfy recliners, naptime, menstrual leave, outdoor option, single-payer (the company) healthcare, car service, no phone calls, no meetings.

  79. Nym*

    360 reviews: what do you do when the results are too good?

    I just did a 360 review as part of a leadership development program. I ended up getting feedback from four managers and nine peers (we were asked for a minimum of 5, maximum of 15, any mix of people; I don’t have subordinates in my position). The problem is… everyone universally rated me high-functioning across the entire suite of ten categories and about 60 questions. How do I use those results to identify opportunities for professional development?
    · In three of the ten categories, my peers rated me higher (not significantly higher, but higher) than my managers. I plan to talk to my managers about what they think my opportunities for growth are and see if we can figure out what made their perspective different from that of my peers, because the difference may be due to a gap in manager-type skills that isn’t visible to my peers because they don’t have them either.
    · I’d like to see if we can zero in on some of the things that they (peers and managers) think I am doing exceptionally well, because I am in a position to mentor junior staff without supervising them. If I could better articulate the good things, maybe I can transmit some of those lessons.
    · The theme of the responses to the open-ended questions on “how could I improve” was basically “you’re great at this and all you need is to have more opportunities to lead, so you should try to get promoted into position where you do that more”. This is something my manager and I are actively working on, including finding ways for me to assume informal leadership of work groups and projects and building skills through things like the training cohort where I did the 360. What else can I be doing?

    Unfortunately the leadership training program, while exceptional in some ways, is not doing a good job with these 360s – they are not providing guidance on interpretation, or coaching; they are expecting us to figure out what to do with the results on our own. So I throw it to you, commentariat: if everybody says I’m really good at stuff, full stop, how do I get them to help me figure out what I could be getting better so I’m really great at stuff?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Try posing the questions differently:

      1) What am I really good at?
      2) What am I good but not great at?

      The point of asking both questions is to be able to analyze the differences in how you handle the things you’re good at and the things you’re really good at. Or if one category has common denominators like “dealing with an outside person”

    2. TheTallestOneEver*

      Nothing meaningful to contribute, other than to say I feel you. I did something similar in a training program, where the 360 feedback was supposed to help your coach pinpoint areas of development. When my coach met with me, she basically told me that my scores were so high and my feedback was so positive that there wasn’t anything she could do to help me, and then she ended the meeting. Uh, thanks, I guess. I was a relatively new manager (other than my mall job in college in food services) so it would’ve been nice had she done… well, anything.

  80. Kathleen_A*

    What are the “normal” (expected, traditional, etc.) gestures that your workplaces make when somebody leaves to go on to a new job? Something kind of odd – at least it seems odd to me – has started around here, and I’m wondering how it strikes others.

    When someone leaves for a new job, it seems to me that a card is nice…a farewell lunch…maybe a small gift such as a plant…all that sounds traditional and thoughtful. But recently here we’ve had two people leave and some of their coworkers have suggested taking up a collection – so as to give them a cash gift.

    My reaction is, “What? Why?” I mean, if they’re retiring, sure. Or if they’re leaving to go do something that doesn’t pay, such as joining the Peace Corps or going on a year-long church mission trip or going to graduate school or something. My feeling there is, eh, why not?

    But why give them *money* when they’re leaving to go to another job where they’re going to be paid, you know, *money*, and probably even get a raise? That’s just seems so odd to me, and I don’t get the rationale at all. But what do others think?

    1. bb-great*

      That is weird to me. I agree a small gift for sentiment’s sake makes sense. I got money as a gift when I left my last job, but that’s because it was a contract that was ending and I didn’t have another job lined up (and it was a pretty small amount anyway).

    2. Emi.*

      That seems kind of weird to me too, but my guess is that people wanted to give gifts instead of just throwing parties, and this is the solution for giving gifts to people you don’t know well enough to pick out something specific?

      My office has low-key (eg pizza) parties funded by employee contributions to the party fund.

    3. Tardigrade*

      No, collecting cash for people leaving for a new job is not normal in my experience.

      Is it the same person every time asking for a cash collection? Maybe they don’t realize that this is not a thing and you could let them know that you usually a card and a lunch. Also, do you know how successful this collection has been? Because I can’t imagine you’re the only one who thinks it’s strange, and maybe the practice will end if it runs out of fuel, so to speak.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I am not sure who suggested the first collection. I suspect that it was a particular coworker (let’s call her “Marie” in honor of the overbearing mother on “Raymond”), because Marie is really fond of finding annoying and often poorly thought-out work-arounds for ordinary practices.

        I can easily imagine her finding out that we don’t ordinarily use company money to send flowers to someone leaving for a new job (which we don’t) and saying “I know! Let’s get around this pettifogging rule by just collecting money for her. No pressure on anybody to contribute, of course.” (Yeah right.) And I can also easily imagine the other members of Marie’s department being too nice and non-confrontational and cowed to say, “But wait. Giving money to someone leaving for another job is just weird.”

        So that’s who I suspect, but I don’t actually know. I think the second suggestion is a direct result of the first: “Well, when Frank left, we took up a collection for him, so maybe now that Amy is leaving, we should do it for her, too?”

    4. Cousin Itt*

      You’re right, it’s odd. My work does do collections, but in order to buy something not for a cash gift.

    6. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      I think a cash gift is strange for any workplace celebration, even showers or retirement (related gift card makes sense, though). Either just do the party/card or do a gift that doesn’t look like “Hey we couldn’t identify any sort of relevant gift, so go get something yourself.”

    8. b*

      Good pens are useful. I had to buy pens last year for the first time in a decade. It was sad.
      The last few years at conferences my favorite give aways were from Caterpillar, who had a scale model of their equipment, and another vendor who gave out scale models of military equipment. I have two different tanks, a Blackhawk, and a Humvee. Both produced a new vehicle every year and we always checked out their booths first.

    9. b*

      We have several departments where cash is the norm for farewell gifts. They decided they all had enough knick-knacks and cash is better. Generally people put in ones and fives, not tens and twenties so it’s rarely a huge amount, less than $50.

    10. Ender Wiggin*

      We do that in my job. There’s no pressure to contribute there’s a card at someone’s desk and people can put as much or as little as they want. Most of the people in my company are blue collar so I think that might be the difference. At previous jobs which were mostly white collar that wouldn’t have happened.

  81. Anonamoose*

    On a lighter note, did anyone see the Haigh and Associates video on LinkedIn and Twitter? It’s a tech recruiting company in the UK that made a video to draw in applicants but the video depicts the bro-iest bro bro culture. Here’s an article written on it https://thetab.com/uk/2018/10/16/do-you-want-to-work-in-recruitment-because-this-is-the-lad-hellscape-that-awaits-you-84092 (lad=bro) (also links the twitter thread about this) and the original post on LinkedIn can be found here: https://www.linkedin.com/company/haigh-associates/ (gotta scroll back a week but honestly the comments are gold).

    1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      OMG, this looks like it was produced by The Lonely Island. *laughs hysterically*

      1. Anonamoose*

        Sadly, it’s NOT a parody. The company is completely serious…they even blocked a guy on LinkedIn who posted a comment saying it was a brilliant parody (he promptly took the discussion to twitter instead).

        1. Ciara Amberlie*

          I saw this, it’s amazingly tone deaf! Unfortunately for them I think they’re going to suffer from the Streisand effect by trying to squash the criticism.

  82. powdered_sugar*

    Folks how do you contain yourself, as in not resign in a blaze of glory, when you don’t get a raise that you have advocated for? I feel it was a legitimate request and had it been a colleague in similar circumstances I’d have advocated for them in the same way (I’m the Finance Manager). After months of consideration I received a flat ‘no’ with nothing behind it – and it has really irritated me. So, AAM colleagues, friends, how do you keep it under your hat until you jump ship?

    2. B*

      Use the information that you put together to self-advocate to inform the cover letters you write to find the better job you leave for. Like, you’ve already made the case, it’s just a question of finding the people who respond to it appropriately.

    3. CatCat*

      Relish the anticipation of the day you give your two week notice.

      I remember when I was planning to leave a Toxic Job and feeling super carefree as I knew I was getting out of there. Not going to lie, it was somewhat satisfying to then watch them scramble to see if giving me the raise I asked for months beforehand would get me to stay (it would not have because (1) there were other issues, (2) the time to do that was when I asked for the raise!, and (3) why would I stay when I already have another job waiting for me offering me the things I want.)

      1. BRR*

        I think I might end up in a situation like that soon and I really want to say “Nope, that was the raise to get me to stay then. I need the raise that will get me to stay now.”

        My advice for powdered_sugar is if you’re going above and beyond, try to say you no longer have the capacity to do those things or ask for additional resources.

    4. Artemesia*

      A live well lived is the best revenge. I would put all the anger into finding a better job, giving minimal notice and leaving with sang froid. They treat people like this because they assume they have no options. Being cool is a much better response than making a scene.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Quitting now in a blaze of glory hurts you. You lose your income stream. Also, you lose a potential reference for later in life.
      Stick it out while you find your next job that pays better (I assume you based your raise request on local market value for your skills, so you know what to ask for when you get your new job offer). Then quit giving two weeks notice and know that you behaved with class.

  83. Pink waves calling your name*

    I have been with my company for two years, working as a Lllama Grooming Specialist. When I started, I reported to the LG Manager. She was pronoted a year ago and left the dpt. This left me in charge of all things llama grooming and I also got an intern to help out.
    I have taken over the tasks of my former manager and expanded lur dpt’s competencies. I report directly to the general manager now.
    This past week I asked for a promotion to be the LG Manager (a position that is mine in terms of responsibilities and
    has been eliminated as a title), and my boss said he agrees so I should just talk to HR to discuss the details (and HR will report back with my salary expectation to him for approval).
    I have only worked places where the manager is an integral part of the promotion and you don’t have to work out the details yourself.
    Is this common practice? We are an international company (although the HR dpt with one person was established only a few months ago) but not very structured. On the one hand I’m happy he wants to promote me. On the other hand I feel like he is not very interested/invested and just doesn’t want to bother.

    1. Nacho*

      It kind of sounds like you’re not asking for a promotion, just a title and salary change to match the work you’re already doing. I can totally see you boss not thinking he needs to be a major part of that .

    1. KayEss*

      If you’re considering getting a degree there: don’t. Choose a legitimate, nonprofit school instead.

      If you’re considering hiring someone who has a degree from there: ideally you would not count it against them out of hand. For-profit schools prey most heavily on economically disadvantaged and first-generation students, so discounting a candidate simply because of the institution that granted their degree is maliciously uncharitable. We should be punishing the exploitative schools, not the students they took advantage of. Give the rest of their resume and experience the same level of consideration as you would a candidate from any other school.

    2. Natalie*

      They’re a for-profit school, probably on par with UoP as far as quality. I would avoid it if you have alternatives. Tons of state colleges have online degree options these days, and as a bonus they might be cheaper depending on your state.

    3. Labradoodle Daddy*

      I’m not considering a degree from there. I’m wondering whether it’s a good or OUTRAGEOUSLY BAD idea to warn my manager about hiring people with degrees from for-profit diploma mills. I’m a white girl with a degree from Fordham whose coworkers are mainly black women with associate’s degrees, and I seriously need someone to tell me if my head is up my own butt right now/if I’m being short sighted or what have you.

      1. Natalie*

        As far as for profit colleges go, my impression is that they are less obviously a scam than others. That is, the education might be adequate.

        What the AA degrees are in seems pretty important. How does the degree relate to their actual qualifications for the job, beyond just being a proxy for some certain level of writing skills, computer literacy, etc? Are there other ways you can evaluate those skills? Is there a middle path of caution/additional digging that doesn’t reject all for profit grads out of hand but doesn’t ignore the potential problems entirely?

      3. KayEss*

        I’d hardly call Capella a diploma mill… they have a graduation rate of like, 17 percent. The quality of the education there is probably not great, but it’s a legitimately accredited school. For-profit schools like that are predatory in the sense of milking tuition from students–particularly students eligible for federal aid–and then pouring that money into marketing and CEO salaries rather than education.

        If your boss’s hiring process is otherwise not terrible (are your coworkers generally competent and diligent at their work and suited to their positions? are you?), you should stay out of it.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            I’m one of the trainers who has to give weekly feedback to my manager re: the progress of new trainees.

        2. Labradoodle Daddy*

          And my manager’s hiring process is “get butts in seats before they realize how awful this job is/we’ll take anyone who is desperate enough to work for us.”

          1. KayEss*

            I’d probably focus on finding a better job for yourself, in that case, rather than expend energy trying to change your boss’s hiring and employment philosophy.

          2. Forking great username*

            Then your boss is going to do what he’s going to do. I’m just sitting here trying to take in the fact that you describe yourself as a white girl from Fordham working with black women who have associate’s degrees.

              1. Forking great username*

                The Fordham vs. associates degree does sound snobbish unless there’s a context that makes it matter. The white vs. black just sound racist – really, think about it. Was that necessary information? It comes across like you’re describing yourself as a smart white girl surrounded by less educated black people. I’m sure you can see why that’s problematic.

                1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                  That’s actually why I was asking, and I made that distinction to give context (and to find out if I would come off like a snobby, advantaged white girl…which I did). Does that clarify at all? I asked wanting to know “am I thinking like a clueless white woman?”

                2. The New Wanderer*

                  I read it as “I’m trying to check my privilege, here’s the context” rather than racist. It’s a tough line to put out there exactly because it sounds problematic.

                  Strictly addressing the question, I’d look askance at any for-profit degree at any level (and more so for advanced degrees), but if the qualifications are otherwise there and the degree is more a formality than a necessity for the job (aka the company requires a degree but the work itself doesn’t), I wouldn’t toss the application just because of that.

    4. Artemesia*

      We did not consider people with doctorates from places like this when filling academic positions. Period. If the job is not one where the credential is critical, then I would look at other evidence that they have what you are looking for.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Oh yeah, a doctorate from a place like this is about as useful as making your own in Photoshop.

        For associate degrees, I would try to do my best to find a balance between giving applicants the benefit of the doubt while not trusting the degree to mean much. If the job requires skills that would be acquired doing the degree, I’d do my best to figure out a way to test it during the final round of interviews. It’s tricky because you do get people who work hard and learn while doing a program at a for-profit school, but having that degree doesn’t say anything about whether that particular applicant is one of those people. So you have to find other ways to figure it out.

  85. Rebecca in Dallas*

    Does anyone have experience with dealing with the death of a coworker? A colleague was killed in a car accident earlier this week and work has just been very sad. She and I were not particularly close but she did have some very close friends in the company (she had been working for the company about 6 years, but only in my department for about a year).

    HR brought in a grief counselor for our group and let us know about the resources available through our EAP. It did feel good to have the counselor there (we had a voluntary group session to talk about how we were feeling). I feel like it’s helping all of us to focus on work right now and of course everyone is covering the extra workload as best as possible. We aren’t sure about the timeline for finding a replacement and cleaning out her desk (it’s so sad to walk past her empty desk every day).

    Just wondering if anyone has been through something similar and if they found anything particularly helpful?

    1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      Having a memorial service was soothing for many of my colleagues (I recall doing this for three different people organization-wide; individual departments of those who didn’t have org-wide may have done something as well); it gave us a chance to share some reflections about what we really appreciated about the person we lost, but it was low key enough that no one felt pressured to go. And the company was very lenient about giving time off for the funeral.

      As far as the longer term, we have some stones in our courtyard with the names of employees and volunteers who have passed away so that we don’t feel like they are forgotten. For one of our VPs who passed away in 2013, there is a group that carpools to the cemetery to visit her grave on her birthday (she is buried fairly close to the office, so the visit happens during a lunch break period.) One of the most jarring parts for me is when things move on; this VP had a certain seat she always sat in for our quarterly all-employee meeting, and the first time someone else sat in it seemed peculiar, since it as “Karen’s place,” but it needed to happen. The person who sat there had no idea that it was a typical spot for someone who was gone, so it made us all take a breathe and let it go.

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        I like the idea of having the stones in the courtyard, what a nice way to remember past coworkers!

    2. Elizabeth W.*

      We lost a coworker at OldExjob (he died in his sleep over the weekend). Mostly, everyone moped around for a while–he was very well liked–and eventually they hired someone, since his manager needed someone in that role. The company didn’t offer any counseling. We were all invited to the funeral. I didn’t go, but no one gave me any flack for it. They also didn’t tease me for bursting into tears when the ops manager told me (yes, I worked with a bunch of sexist assholes). But the company REALLY pissed me off when, at our next quarterly meeting, the higher-ups didn’t even mention him. His manager, who was also a buddy of his, might have asked them not to, but it came off like they didn’t care.

      I think your company is handing it very well, actually. It will take time.

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Oh, we all cried I think! My manager cried when she was told us the news.

        That’s sad that your coworker wasn’t mentioned by the higher-ups. A guy in our IT department passed away a couple of years ago, I barely knew him so I didn’t go to the funeral. My boss did (she had worked more closely with him) and said almost nobody from our company came to the service. :( That made me so sad.

        The family still hasn’t announced plans for burial, we hope we will be welcome at the funeral but of course understand if the family decides they would prefer a private service.

    3. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      We had a “write-on” banner that was posted in an office, where we could write our sentiments/farewells. The death was sudden, and tragic – and he was youngish (32, maybe?). The writings were, after a month, packaged up and given to his parents. (I privately wrote them a nice note in a card, sent through the channels, about the personality traits I appreciated about him and what a good boss he was).
      Grand boss had brought in the guy who died, about 1.5 years before he died, and knew him from his previous company.
      The parents were very appreciative, but it also provided closure for us.
      You could do the same thing with a notebook or journal. (something with disks, perhaps, so the pages could be few or many)

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Oh I like the idea of a banner or something that can also go to her family. Somebody did bring that up a similar idea in our counseling session. Thanks!

  86. A.Ham*

    What to do when you gladly recommend someone for one job… but maybe not another?

    I work administratively in the performing arts- an industry where it is very common to know and be friendly with people that work in the business at other companies in the area. A while ago I met someone at an industry young professionals happy hour. We technically both fall into that “YP” category, but she is significantly younger than me and at the very beginning of her career. She also happens to be friends with a good friend of mine that works at a different company, so we see each other socially occasionally. She also worked at that other company, part time, but her job was cut in the spring (A lot of part-time work in the industry is seasonal. She knew she could get her job back in the fall, but that would have been quite a long time without that income, so she started looking for something else). The company I work for is bigger than the other, with a longer season. So, when she lost her job for the summer, she asked me if we were by chance hiring in the same job she was doing before. It just so happens that someone had recently left, so we were. I knew she had already done the (very entry level, part time, customer facing) job and I knew her to be a friendly and reliable person, so it didn’t take much convincing for me to pass her name on. I did so with confidence. She has been working here for a little bit now and her manager likes her and she seems to like it here.

    My problem now is that there recently was a full-time job posted for here in the admin offices that she is interested in. It is not my department, but it is my understanding that it is relatively entry level, but also a specific skill set is needed. A skill set that I don’t know if she has, and I can’t speak confidently to her abilities. Of course, since I did it once, she is hoping (assuming) that I will put in a good word for her again.

    To be clear- it is not that I absolutely do not want to recommend her, it’s just that I honestly don’t know her, or her work, well enough to make a strong recommendation. But I also feel bad- because I basically WAS her 8 years ago. It is not the easiest industry to break into, and if I didn’t have people older than me helping me out and giving me a chance at the beginning of my career…

    Maybe it’s time to pay it forward a little?

    1. TheRedCoat*

      Maybe while you can’t speak to her specific skill set, you could speak to her general good qualities? Is she a hard worker? Organized? Plays well with others?

    2. Reba*

      You can definitely put her name in front of the hiring person and say more or less what you said here– she seems great, I know her from this, I don’t know her work in this particular area. It seems like rec’s from the manager she currently works under would have quite a bit more weight, but I don’t think it would be weird just to point her out for the hiring manager, if you think this is something that’s done in your field/org (which sounds likely).

    3. Nacho*

      If it’s truely an entry level position, and she doesn’t seem like she’ll destroy your reputation by skipping work or sassing the CEO, then toss her name in the hat. Don’t give her a glowing review you don’t know is true, but you can definitely tell somebody at your office that you know somebody who’s interested in the job and you think might be a good fit.

    4. Ender Wiggin*

      Her own manager would be a much better reference for her this time. She’s already working in the company. It’s going to look pretty weird if she needs someone from a totally different department to vouch for her. If she’s any good her own manager should be willing to do it.

  87. Emily*

    Does anyone have experience going from a science/technical PhD into something more science-adjacent (specifically technical writing/technical documentation, but I’d welcome other suggestions)? Will it be difficult to convince people that I’m qualified for and interested in the work?

    I’m supposed to finish grad school in about a year, and will probably apply to some positions in my field, but am also interested in exploring what my options might be outside of the typical path for graduates of my program (many people go on to work for national labs, defense contractors, or other companies that do science/technology relevant to my field). I did a technical documentation internship at a software company before starting my PhD, and loved it – but it was ~4 years ago and lasted for ~5 months, so I don’t think it would count for much experience.

    1. Lady Kelvin*

      Actually, yes and no. My husband has a PhD in a field which typically ends up in national labs, defense contractors, or other companies that do science/technology relevant to my field and got a job for one of those defense contractors. It eventually turned into a job for a different non-defense agency, but doing basically the same thing, project management and consulting. While there he was able to step into a 50% role where he spent half his time on the communications team as the lead technical writer which involved both writing scientific papers and memos, etc which took the research the agency was supporting and turned it into information that could be digested by the public. His main target audience was congress but also the general public and other non-field scientists. It gave him a lot of good experience and he has since transitioned into a job as a CTO for a start-up where his primary role is pitching to investors and writing grants, etc. He has to be able to both write a strong scientific grant for funding and talk about the technology they are developing to laymen investors.

      To summarize, he did this type of transition by getting a more traditional job and working within his organization to gain experience in technical writing.

    2. Usually Lurks*

      I work for a small company that hires people exactly like you–we develop science training for pharma/biotech/medical device companies, for the science parts of sales rep training (there can be a lot of that needed, depending on the drug/device/company). Some of our writers/editors are, say, bench scientists who decide they want to get out of the lab, and have demonstrated writing experience; but a LOT are recent grads who don’t want to continue in the lab or with research. They don’t necessarily have the kind of actual writing work experience that other companies hiring tech or science writers require, but we need their knowledge and can work with training on the professional writing part. (And then we have turnover of probably 1/3 of them every 2 or 3 years, as they move on to those other companies now that they have experience, because we don’t pay as well as those big places.) So I think there are definitely possibilities out there, you just need to do some creative thinking to find out where they are, and where the starting point is to make your way in.

    3. Robin Q*

      Check out myIDP-it’s a questionnaire for STEM grad students about their career goals and suggests jobs and paths that might be interesting for you. I’ll put the link in a reply.

    4. Gumby*

      You’re writing a dissertation, right? That seems pretty relevant.

      But also, all of those typical employers could probably use technical writers too. I know one person who parleyed her PhD into a technical writer position – for a national lab. If you could write proposals or grants successfully any number of defense contractors or smaller R&D companies would love to hire you.

  88. dazed and confused*

    Happy Friday everyone!
    Fairly new to office type employment. Been working at my first job for a few months and I’ve been having daily 1-on-1 meetings with my manager. The meetings are in the morning and all she asks is “So what did you do all day yesterday?”
    I find these frustrating, a waste of time, and a big disruption when I get into a nice productive mood in the morning. Do I have any power here to change the frequency of these meetings from EVERY day to once a week? Advice on wording it so that my manager doesn’t take offense? Thanks!

    1. NicoleK*

      Your boss sounds like a total micro manager. I’ve never had daily 1 on 1 at any job. If you have a good understanding of your job and you’re progressing appropriately, after 90 days on the job, meet with your boss. Talk about what you’ve done well and etc and suggest changing daily 1 on 1 to weekly or biweekly.

    2. Drop Bear*

      Perhaps develop a report that outlines projects you are working on/assisting with and keep it updated with key tasks, deadlines,, issues etc and use it to brief her on progress when you meet with her- she might not be so interested in the day to day if she can see you managing your time and role proactively. You could make it available in a shared drive and after a few times going through it with her at your daily meeting, suggest she look at it there, rather than have daily meetings-Something like, ‘I’ve put this in a shared drive, so would it work better for you to check on the progress of my projects there, rather than for you to have to find time to meet with me every morning?’.

    3. Someone Else*

      If that’s literally what she asks, in the tone that “what did you do all day” usually conveys….she might just suck. When I was new my manager did prefer to have daily one-on-ones, but they were midday, and once I was settled in the role they switched to once a week.
      One thing that might at least make you feel better about it is if you treat it more like a daily stand up meeting? So the point of the meeting is just a really quick rundown: what did you do yesterday, what are you doing today, and what are your blocks (ie stuff preventing you from doing what you’d otherwise do). These are non-judgy and meant to keep the manager in the loop and ideally, help you remove the blocks. So if you treat the meeting like that it might become more productive. If I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt I’d guess that’s what she wanted out of it anyway and was just…not doing it right? So it might be win-win all around.

    4. valentine*

      Ask to make it weekly and/or to replace it with a project update email because you want to preserve your productivity.

  89. The Healthiest Anon*

    How does one request/take a mental health day? We get three sick days a year, that are in their own bucket, not PTO. We are not allowed to use them for doctors’ appointments, planned surgeries, or any other medical care that is not an unplanned emergency. I lose mine every year since the “no planned dr visits for sick days” policy went into effect a few years ago. It’s been five months since my PTO time rolled over and I got three days, and I have not used a single one yet. I just do not get sick, I guess. Which is an excellent problem to have, but I want to be able to use my days. How do people go about taking a mental health day? Workplace is stressful and toxic-ish and I could certainly use one, but how do you request one without violating any rules? do people just suddenly feel under the weather on a Wednesday and then are back to work feeling good on Thursday? (I imagine you cannot take a Friday for this?) And how do you typically spend yours?

    1. TheRedCoat*

      “I’m not feeling great and will be out today.” Isn’t a lie, and it doesn’t sound like they need a doctor’s note. People get sick for a day for all sorts of reasons, especially stomach ones.

    2. EA in CA*

      I would just call in sick. You don’t have to tell them that it’s for a mental health day. Just let your boss know that you are feeling under the weather and won’t be in that day. Then when you go back in the next day and people ask you how you are feeling, you can just keep it general: “Thanks for asking, a day of rest really helped.”

      1. CatCat*

        And if people pry/put you on the spot as to what, I find, “It was a stomach thing” always stops further prying. You can definitely have a “stomach thing” one day and be fine the next day.

    3. Rebecca in Dallas*

      The two excuses I have used are “I was up sick all night” and “I have a bad migraine.” I do actually get migraines and have had to use that as an actual sick day before, so I knew it wouldn’t arouse too much suspicion. And nobody ever asks for details about stomach stuff!

      I’m like you, I rarely get sick and at first felt guilty taking a sick day when I wasn’t actually sick. But those are benefits your employer provides, so you can and should use them!

      1. Rebecca in Dallas*

        And yes, I just told people the next day (if they asked) that a day of rest really helped and I felt much better.

      2. The Healthiest Anon*

        I do get migraines. But they already know that I take a prescription pill when that happens, and go on with my day. It’ll have to be a stomach bug!

        1. Beatrice*

          I get them, too. There are times when I’ve had a weird episode where the meds haven’t helped, or I went into the nausea phase too quickly and couldn’t keep the meds down long enough for them to get ahead of it, or hadn’t refilled my meds and couldn’t get them quickly enough to head it off.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I’ve certainly called in “sick” when I needed a mental health day.

      I’ve always been worried about being caught in a lie when I do so, so I make a point of not going out where I might be seen by coworkers. I stay home and I might nap, or read, or watch a movie, or just look at the internet while listening to podcasts or to the radio. Sometimes I just clean my house and do the laundry and ironing.

    5. Artemesia*

      Why not just call in sick using one of those days. It is an idiotic policy but since it is their policy roll with it. Surely you don’t have to describe symptoms in detail but if necessary lie about having that bug that is going around and take the mental health day. Only caveat is that you need to take it at home and not at the ball park.

    6. Mediamaven*

      I had a job where sick days were VERY frowned upon. Like you, I just never got sick. Or if I was sick, I worked through it. So I lost 5 whole days every single year that most other people took. My point, just call out sick. Lie. Food poisoning or whatever. Everyone does it and you shouldn’t be penalized for not being sick. That’s why when I started my own business I lumped them allll together as PTO. So no one had to feel bad about taking them.

    7. Nacho*

      Do you have a reasonable number of PTO days? If so, then just accept that you won’t use all your sick days every year, and be thankful you don’t have to waste PTO if you get a cold. If not, you lie to your boss about coming down with something.

    8. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Hint. Do not get sunburned at the beach or on the slopes.
      Just saying.
      Also, you could consider them for doctor appointments/ dentist appointments/trying something like a massage(health related). Less of a stretch, self-care. Keeping yourself from getting sick. Even get your flu shot and take the rest of the day off.

  90. WalkerTexasReindeer*

    How many people are you *actually* in the running against when you apply for a job? Is this something that varies wildly by market/industry/position?

    The last two jobs I made the top 5 for, I was told over 200 applicants applied for. This is in a Big Metro Area. Is that standard for a mid-level role in a fairly competitive industry? Are those numbers larger/smaller for entry-level or director-level roles? I honestly have NO clue! I’ve never been a hiring manager and just never thought about it.

    1. y_cat*

      Last few jobs I was told that there were around 30-40 applicants total. I’m also in a big metro area, in the beginning stages of my career (3-5 years) but work in non-profit, so maybe that’s different.

    2. EA in CA*

      It depends on the industry and role. I found that my entry level roles had a lot more applicants than a role that was more senior and required more qualifications. It wasn’t uncommon for a receptionist position to have +150 applicants, many who are just trying to get their foot in the door so they can advance through the company.

      It also depends on your company. Well established companies known for great perks or benefits are going to see much high applicant volumes that a smaller, lesser known company.

      Lastly, the economy and the availability of jobs within your area will also be a factor. I work in an area where there was one dominant industry and almost everyone worked within that industry if they could because it was lucrative pay and benefits. When the industry hit a rough patch, everything came crashing down and hundreds lost their jobs. During the downturn, I would get hundreds of applicants for all positions because people were desperately looking for whatever they could get, regardless if they had the necessary skills and/or background.

    3. H.C.*

      I’m on interview panels for PR/marketing related positions; usually we have 5-10 candidates each time we have an opening (though I have no idea how many applicants HR had to screen and filter out beforehand.)

    4. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      The 100+ applicant numbers may be true, but you are *actually* in the running against maybe 2-5 candidates, if you are truly a top tier applicant (I work in a university system and personally, I hire mostly administrative folks, but also sit on the committees for faculty hires).

      I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than about 3-4 realistic-looking candidates in any job search I have been on the committee for, regardless of the number of applicants.

    5. Aphrodite*

      I work at a community college whose benefits are off the charts; in other words, they are unheard of outside of government and education and are even at the top of those. When any jobs open up and some will be soon, it is routine to get a minimum or 100+ applications. This seems applicable regardless of where on the scale the position falls.

  91. TheRedCoat*

    How do I broach the topic of a pumping set up when I am interviewing for a new job? I had a fantastic opportunity land in my lap, and while it isn’t a deal breaker, I am curious as to what there set up is, as pumping is my life for the next 3 months at least. The difference between ‘A private room’ and ‘The supply closet with cockroaches and Frank trying to pick up his copies’ is… a wide chasm.

    1. Nacho*

      I would hold off on mentioning it until you’re offered the job. Legally, they have to offer you the private room, and it’s ok to kick up a little bit of a fuss if they try to pass off a supply closet as an alternative, even if you’re new and don’t want to make waves.

  92. y_cat*

    Sooo.. In your experience, how does one go about advocating for a well-deserved promotion if they believe that their manager is threatened by their career evolution and/or is too focused on their own agenda to help them out? Does going over their head to the next level of management work? I feel like that will just stir the pot. Am I doomed?

  93. Catleesi*

    I am new to my position, and this field (higher education). I started a couple months ago, and moved to a new state specifically for this position. I like the job a lot, I like the people – I don’t like the location. At all. I already know this is going to be temporary, and while I’m here I’m going to do my best but I want to start looking as soon as is reasonable not to burn bridges or give interviewers a negative impression of me.

    Some contexts: my job did not pay to move me here, I have a solid work history of 2 different jobs with 5 years tenure each (this is a new career path for me, after grad school), and I would be looking in a new state that is also not where I am from.

    What is a reasonable time frame to start looking? Is this different for higher education than other fields? Is moving out of state and then moving to a new state again going to reflect poorly? Any opinions welcome, or what has been your experience!

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’m in higher education as well, and it seems to vary between departments. In my previous institution, the areas that saw yearly turnover were Housing and Greek Life, and that was because they were pretty high stress positions with A LOT of nights/weekends. Sometimes there’d be a flurry of movement in Student Affairs, but that would be because someone left and it triggered a chain reaction. But generally everyone has stayed for one full academic year unless they landed in a crazy department with toxic people, which it sounds like you don’t have. It also gives people time to experience the area in different seasons when different things are happening.

      Generally with higher ed, moving between states isn’t that big of a deal. Within the interview, you can frame it more that you want to work for that specific school/type of school as your reason for applying. I did my undergrad at a small liberal arts school, worked/did a masters at a large research school, and now am back working at a small liberal arts school – I drew on my great experience in undergrad as to why I wanted to work at Liberal Arts U. I’ve known lots people that have hopped around the country working at different schools, so it isn’t uncommon at all!

      1. Catleesi*

        This is helpful, thank you! I think framing it as the type of institution is a good idea – depending on where I will be interviewing. I had planned on giving it 2 years, but I am not sure if I am going to make it that long.

  94. Soon to be former Office Manager*

    I’m finally leaving a terribly toxic work environment! My last day is next Friday. I’m an office manager and I have no replacement, so all the miscellaneous stuff that I do will be distributed among the rest of the office when I leave. I’ve been putting things in place to ease my resignation for more than 6 months: writing guides, talking people through how I do things, etc. The snag that I’m running into is that, since no one has stepped up to volunteer for any of the tasks, my bosses are trying to pressure me into picking successors for each one. But I don’t feel like that’s my responsibility! I’m not going to be here; I don’t care who gathers info for yearly reports, or orders lunch for meetings, or keeps the office supplies stocked. I’ve made a list of what needs to be done on the regular and I’m posting that on the office’s internal wiki. The bosses are worried that if no one is assigned to specific tasks then they might either not get done or all fall to one person, but I’m really struggling to see why I need to be the one to distribute them, and why the bosses can’t do that when I’m gone and as it comes up. Anybody have input or similar experiences?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, I don’t think I’m in a good position to do that. I will be happy to work with whoever you assign, but new work duties should be assigned by their managers based on evaluations of people’s workloads. I don’t have that information so I’m not in a position to do that. If you think it would be useful, I can update the wiki to give estimates for how long each task generally takes me to do.”

      1. Soon to be former Office Manager*

        Oh, including the estimated time for each task is an excellent idea! Thank you for both the suggestion of that and the script! That script has hit on the biggest reason why I’m feeling reluctant to shove the work onto people arbitrarily, so hopefully that will be helpful to say. Thanks!

    2. Graciosa*

      I once waited over a week to find out who was going to pick up my job responsibilities when I left.

      I just kept politely reminding them that I could not hand off my work as effectively if they did not identify who would be picking up.

      It would never have occurred to me that I would be responsible for finding my own successor (whether a full replacement or by task). That is completely ridiculous – but the good news is that you don’t have to do it. All you have to do is hold on until next Friday and let them reap whatever they’ve sown.

      Glad you’re getting out –

      1. Soon to be former Office Manager*

        Thank you so much for the solidarity here. When they asked me to start pointing to replacements for each task, especially the ones that won’t happen until a year from now, I imagine there were a lot of cartoon question marks popping up over my head. My thinking is, it’s the managers’ responsibility to assign tasks, not mine (especially since I’m not the current people-manager anyway!). Glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way!

        1. valentine*

          If you can, tell the staff this is a good time to choose to volunteer to avoid being voluntold. Also, if you can recall and include your time-per-task when new, that would be a great guide for assignments and evaluation.

  95. Nacho*

    I moved into a new role last week, from level 2 customer service to level 2 partner service. All of our training was about level 1 partner service tasks, and while part of my job is supporting the level 1 agents and answering their questions (about things they’ve been doing for way longer than me and got more training than I did about), I got a 1 week training course where that new hires get 4, and there was nothing in it about all the stuff that level 2 agents are supposed to do. Basically I feel like I wasn’t trained on a fairly significant part of my job, and when I brought this up to my manager, she just told me that I’m supposed to learn the rest of it as I go, and that she feels I’m good at picking things up/I should ask the people who have been in the role for a few months how to do anything I’m lost on.

    Is this normal? Or am I right that it’s kind of strange to move somebody to a role and not train them on a bunch of stuff they’ll be doing and just expect them to ask their co-workers for help?

  96. Birch*

    How do you feel about the balance of workload/working hours/salary?

    I’m in academia–an early career researcher. So I have a lot of responsibilities while it’s still sort of OK to ask me to do the nitty-gritty stuff, and my PI has wildly unrealistic expectations for how much time it should take to get anything done. My contract is for 7 hours per day (but exempt), which is what I put on my time sheet for the grant that covers my salary, even though I regularly do 8-9 hours. I get a lot of vacation time and luckily my PI is great about approving the time I do take off and about flexible office hours. Could I do 10-12 hour days? Sure, I’ve done that before. Should I just suck it up and work more because I have a cushy office job? I’m definitely not getting paid enough to put myself through that kind of stress and ill health. I’m already mentally and emotionally exhausted more evenings than not, even if I have only worked 7 hours that day, because of all the projects and responsibilities I’m juggling. I worked very hard to establish a work-life balance during my PhD that I think is healthy for me and sets good boundaries, and I think it’s doubly important to model that to the students who are working with me, since our PI is not.

    I recently made the mistake of glimpsing a list of tech internship salaries. They are all 2-5x what I make, and my first reaction was raging indignation. I have weird feelings about this because I’ve been sitting on the “making barely enough to live on if you don’t look at my student loans” edge my entire life, and still there now!–BUT I’m finally getting paid an actual salary as opposed to being a student, and I don’t know what perspective to take on all this. On the one hand, it really fluffs my nutter that academic jobs pay so little considering the education level needed, and on the other hand, most weeks I can go to the grocery and buy things like Ben and Jerry’s and the nice cheese without first consulting my bank account, which is a relatively new experience for me, so I feel incredibly privileged.

    So the question is: I feel overworked, but maybe I should just put in more hours than I’m asked? On the other hand, I’m not getting paid for extra hours, and I’m so far on the low end of salary in the first place that it gets me a little irritated to be putting in so much and getting proportionally so little financially.

    How do you balance all this?

    1. bb-great*

      Nooooooooooooooooooooo. Academia will absolutely suck you dry if you let it. Do NOT let yourself get sucked into the trap of working yourself ragged for nothing. Be upfront with your PI about how much you can get done in 7 hours, do that, and leave. You absolutely do not owe anyone free labor because you have a better paying job than you used to.

    2. Soon to be former Office Manager*

      As a career academic support person, I know how tempting it is to say “But they NEED me to stay longer! They NEED me to do this extra work!”

      Honey, let me tell you: no matter what your PI says, ain’t nothing is life or death in academia. The hardest decision I ever made in my early career was when I said “If they want me to get this done, they need to accept that it takes more time than what they gave me”. That was the hardest, but also the most rewarding decision. It didn’t involve anything bombastic; just casually seeing boundaries with the people in my lab who were giving me work, “hey, I’ll need X amount of time to do this”, “I can do this but it won’t be done until Y date because of the rest of my workload”. It might also help to chat with the admin support in the department, see what exactly it means (in both a legal and a practical sense) that you’re exempt but working long hours.

      You might find that it’s not worth it to stay. You might find that you want to stay and get the experience and the rep for reliability and then bounce when a better opportunity comes up. There’s no wrong decision here, as silly as that might sound. It’s whatever works for you. You’ve got this.

      1. Birch*

        Thanks for this! I think I’m struggling because my PI is not great at managing us, so I’m spending a lot of time trying to organize the projects in a way that will (hopefully) make my life easier in the longer run. And I’m also finding myself agreeing to some time-consuming and important but ultimately Not My Job things because I feel like everything will fall apart if I don’t do them, and other things because it may be difficult but they would really help my career–I don’t want to lose out on opportunities! And of course I’m constantly terrified of not having a job at all. I’m going to try to let go of the things that shouldn’t be my job. Re: staying or leaving… it’s a postdoc, so my contract will be up soon enough anyway. I’m hoping to return to the lab where I did my PhD–that country has a far healthier work ethic in general and I LOVED it. My PIs there were the best models of work-life balance.

        1. Soon to be former Office Manager*

          “I feel like everything will fall apart if I don’t” really strikes a chord with me! I get that feel. I feel that feel. That feel is one of the reasons why I’m leaving my current place. Letting go of things that are Decidedly Not Your Job is very difficult but very important.

          Pushing back against the long hours might not apply since it’s a postdoc; I don’t have experience with that, but I assume it’s just A Job like any other job. But boundary-setting is still good. You’re working in academia but that doesn’t mean you have to be on an academic’s schedule. Do your stuff diligently while you’re there, let yourself have breaks, all that jazz.

          Good luck! I believe in you!

        2. JessicaTate*

          So… it sounds like less of a balance problem and more of a PI problem. Mainly: PI is not accurately estimating how much time research tasks require, and PI is not good at actually managing the research process. It CAN be in your best interest to pick up the slack of organizing projects if you’re the person leading implementation. But something else has to give. A “big idea” PI sometimes is oblivious to this. (I knew one who once claimed how quickly HE could get Task X done, and couldn’t believe how long it took the Assistants. I pointed out that clearly they couldn’t match his imagined pace, and he needed to start planing his budgets accordingly or he’d just have to pick up the slack himself.)

          It could be worth a frank conversation with the PI about what your work is actually entailing, laying out the trade-offs around how you should be prioritizing time. Sometimes, if a PI is at all self-aware that they “don’t like” (read: aren’t good at) the organizational side, they will welcome having someone like you who picks up that piece and makes them look good by making the research happen in a smart, efficient way. Maybe you can leverage the PI seeing that value-add of that in service into the kind of change you want to see. Are there other research assistants where some of your tasks can be shifted down to them? Or is there not enough staff, which means the overall pace needs to slow down? If he/she is not good at logistics, it may serve you to map out solutions that he/she can agree to, rather than present problems that he/she is not going to be good at solving.

          Good luck. And at least he/she doesn’t have to be your PI forever.

          1. Robin Q*

            It’s super common for PIs to forget how long something takes! I’ve been told to start a week-long experiment by mine and then asked if I have the data the next day. Definitely don’t assume that they have thought through all of that when they are asking for things and wanting you to do it anyways, it’s more likely they just don’t know.

    3. blink14*

      Stick to your hours as much as you can, and if the PI pushes back, tell them that what they are requesting to be done in a certain time frame isn’t possible.

      I’m also in academia, and there is this perception that the faculty is above and beyond, and you must do what ever you can to help them. At my university in particular, the research faculty are babied and its frankly ridiculous. Treat your PI with respect as your boss, but realize they need to respect your time and you as a person as well.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      Senior postdoc here. I honestly believe my best 40 hours a week are superior to my average 60 hours a week, and that’s true for most people. I am a human with a finite attention span, and while I work with some superstars who can pull 10, 12, 14 hour days regularly – that’s not me. At least not without ruining my health and personal life. This has not made me popular with my PI (who is an 80 hour a week type), but thankfully I was able to get some grant funding of my own, giving me room to set my own pace. I did have to work 6-7 days a week for at least a month to get the grant submitted, but I can do ok with short term bursts like that, it’s just not sustainable long term.

      My opinion is that postdoc is less about the science and more about carving a path that is sustainable for you and keeps you motivated to keep going. I’ve seen plenty of 24/7 workers burn out within a year or two despite being brilliant. And I’ve seen people work 24/7 and have nothing to show for it publication wise because they were doing half baked work because they were exhausted.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Please log the hours you actually work. Perhaps the last person in your position did not log all their hours and this is how your boss got unrealistic expectations.

      Also, please know that they will give you as much work as you let them get away with.

      Alison has answered many questions about workloads and how to discuss them with your boss in previous posts. I think you will find them helpful.

      Is there someone else who does your same job that you can ask for workload advice?

  97. KatieKate*

    What’s a professional jacket that can cover a sweater? It’s sweater weather by me, but because my office is still pumping air conditioning for… some reason? I am wearing a fleece sweatshirt over my sweater to stay warm. This is fine when I’m in my office, but not when I’m taking meetings. I’m worried that anything I get to wear over a sweater will look just as frumpy

      2. KatieKate*

        I’ve thought about a blazer but sweater’s tend to bunch up at the sleeves, and I’d prefer not to have two different size blazer (I like a more fitted look.)

        Is wearing a real coat around the office not weird? I’ve thought about doing that, but only in protest of the temperature!

        1. NicoleK*

          I’ve worn my coat around the office. It was a wool, hip length, dressier coat with a slim profile though. You may get strange looks if you’re wearing a puffer coat or an ankle length coat.

        2. Gumby*

          Frankly, I’ve worn a throw blanket around the office because if they are going to set the thermostat to “arctic circle” they don’t get to have an opinion on my wardrobe. But they don’t care about my wardrobe to start with so it might not be all that helpful in your situation. (OTOH, it is sort of a pointed way to communicate “it’s way too cold in here” when requests get ignored by facilities…)

    2. Birch*

      What about a really minimalistic, thin trench coat (but made out of something warm)? Nothing specific to recommend, but I googled “sleek trench coat” and something like that in a dark colour was what I had in mind.

      1. KatieKate*

        Hmm those still look like “coats” to me. I feel like I would find it bizarre if I was sitting in on a meeting and someone still had a coat like that on.

    3. Anonymous75*

      Would a sleek type of long underwear that you wear under your sweater work? Something like Cuddl Duds that is not bulky but offers another layer of warmth?

        1. Artemesia*

          Silk long johns are non bulky and they don’t get sweaty and uncomfortable. They are my go to when traveling to meet unexpected more chilly weather. And there are warmer base layers also. I also often wear a lightweight down vest under a jacket — they are sleeveless and thus don’t bunch up like a sweater — of course you have to be good with the vest showing — it is pretty casual. Lightweight cashmere sweaters also layer better than bulkier sweaters under dressy jackets. I have a thin turtle neck cashmere that is very warm and isn’t bulky.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Yeah I’d go with long underwear or even just long sleeve tees under your other clothes. Fleece lined tights under trousers can also help a lot.

    4. Seifer*

      We do soft-shell jackets. Like the ones you can get from North Face. In black, they’re not that obnoxiously winter coat-like, and they’re sleek enough that my boss often wears his during meetings.

  98. Kat*

    I’ve been at my job a little over a year and feel like I’m just not fitting in. I’m a quieter person, but I’ve never felt like this at previous jobs and its really bumming me out. I really love the work I do, but I think the nature of my job is part of the problem. I’m the only one in the office who does this kind of work, I’m very low in the hierarchy, its very different that what almost everyone else does (data entry in a sales office) and it requires very little collaboration – plus there is a LOT of work. Most days, I have to be very focused and working quickly for the full 8 hours just to get all my tasks done. (I also have family responsibilities that make it hard to do impromptu happy hours and such though I do attend those that are planned in advance.) It doesn’t leave a lot of time for socializing with my coworkers. I like all the people I work with, and I try to create opportunities to connect (arriving a few minutes early to meetings hoping to chat with people, eating lunch in the breakroom when other people are there, participating in office activities like Super Bowl pools and parties) but I just don’t feel like things are clicking. People rarely start conversations with me and when I start conversations they tend to die out quickly and awkwardly. At parties (this office loves parties) everyone chats in little groups and I can never figure out how to break in without killing the conversation. This week one of the admins went around inviting people to join their lottery ticket buying group. I totally would have joined but she walked right past my cubicle without asking! Its such a stupid thing and I am sure that if I’d asked to participate she would have welcomed me but it made me feel really down. Another co-worker was asking people if they’d buy candies for her kid’s school fundraiser and did the same thing – skipped me entirely. I had to ask “Did I hear you were selling candy” just so I could buy some. Then I feel dumb for letting these things get to me. I don’t know how to fix it and I don’t want to leave this job – I really do love the work and I am very good at it – but I’m just kind of lonely. I’m also new to this city and don’t have any friends outside of work either. I’m not looking for a BFF or anything, I just want to have occasional pleasant smalltalk and minor human connection and I’m not sure why I am struggling with this.

    1. KR*

      Is there someone who has been more friendly or compassionate than everyone else? Maybe you could talk with that person and explain how you’re having trouble fitting in. They might be able to take point in inviting you to things or letting you know what’s happening around the office social scene. I’m sorry, that does sound lonely. Can you talk about the work you’re doing, particularly in relation to the others in the office? “Brennan, I noticed the other day that you got a big sale! Congratulations!” Or “How is the X account going? I am working on entering data from them this afternoon.”

    2. Been in your shoes*

      Would it help for you to start conversations with people? Like the lady selling candy for her kid’s school. “Wow, how old is little Tommy? That is a precious age!”or “What kind of candy do you enjoy?”

      I felt the same way – previously I worked with a bunch of oversharers and I prefer to keep my personal life private. Have you invited people to lunch or to get coffee? Perhaps start with some of the people selling candy or organizing the company lottery ppol? Are there office committees that you can join? The “oversharing” job had things like “social/team building committee.” Does yours form committees?

    3. Ender Wiggin*

      You say when you start conversations they die or quickly, and you don’t know how to join a conversation without interrupting. It sounds like you find small talk difficult. I suspect if you get that bit right things will get easier.

      The easiest thing to do in an office is to ask “what did you get up to at the weekend” (mon/tue) / “any plans for the weekend?” (thu/Fri). Then LISTEN to the answer and ask follow up questions. Then you can use that as a springboard for the next time you talk to them. Eg if someone says they went mountain climbing last weekend then you can ask the following week if they climbed any more mountains or something.

      When you’re at a work social event it’s generally acceptable to hover on the edge of a group and listen to their conversation for a while then job in. Go for a cheerful looking group and if they seem to be taking about anything private get out of there quick you doubt want to be accused of eavesdropping.

      I’m sure there are plenty of online articles about how to make small talk and so on.

      Also don’t put all your hopes on work for making friends. Get out in the evenings. Join a club or whatever but don’t sit in alone every night whatever you do.

      Good luck

  99. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I’m having an issue with patience. Not my own, mind you, though I do generally think of myself as impatient. I have co-workers who will not wait for me or my boss to get back to them before starting with the reminders and questions. For example, they will send an email with something that needs to be addressed. That email will arrive while we’re in a meeting. We will leave the meeting less than an hour later, and I will get bombarded with, “Where’s my answer? I need this!” and then later it’s passive aggressive notes about how they “hope this one will be answered quickly.”

    I am frustrated. I have asked them to hold off. I have reminded them that they need to give people more than 30 minutes to respond, especially if those people are international. Sometimes we need to think about things, other times we are busy, still other times their requests are low on the priority list. They complain that if we don’t respond, we won’t get our reports “on time”, but we have told them time and again that we understand if our delays cause reporting delays and we’d rather delay the report than be rushed to give answers (also, this rarely happens because we usually get back to them within a couple of hours if we’re not out for the day). There’s also a general lack of flexibility and a refusal to, say, focus more on one report while waiting for an answer on another (which is very possible).

    Any ideas to help our team back off? The catch here is that they do not directly report to me, so it’s not like I can make it a management issue. (I would LOVE to call them into my office and discuss this, but that would not be kindly looked upon here.) I just feel stuck and am getting more annoyed every day.

    1. This might work?*

      Would an email indicating that you have received their request and are waiting to confirm information/need to have a meeting before responding/whatever work in this case? Something that says “I see that you want to know step 2 of llama grooming. We have recently made some changes to the process and I need to speak to Fergus before providing a full and complete answer. Please note that we understand that this delay may cause the release of the Llama Grooming Guide to be delayed. “

    2. Colette*

      Can you set their expectations that your turnaround time is X (I’d go with 1 business day)? (You’d have to make sure your and their management is on board)

      And then, if they follow up, ask if they sent it more than 1 day ago. If not, the answer is “our turnaround time is 1 day”.

  100. Delta Delta*

    I left a very toxic work situation about 2 years ago. It’s interesting to see how it’s taken about this long for my mental processes to adjust to what’s actually normal, as opposed to what’s normal within the toxic environment.

    Example: I just got a friendly nudge email from a colleague. To be fair, it was something I had forgotten to do, and when I got it, I thought, “I’m so glad she reminded me!” Then I took care of the task. Me from 2 years ago would not have at all reacted that way. I would taken it as a personal affront or I would have cried. Neither of those reactions is normal, and now with space and clarity, I see that. I also see that I sort of dropped the ball on something, and I appreciated a quick reminder to take care of something.

    1. Xarcady*

      About four years after leaving a toxic job, I ran into a former co-worker, who had left the toxic company about a year before I did. We agreed that it took about three years for us to completely shed the habits that had become routine in dealing with the toxicity.

  101. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I currently make a good salary–I’m able to save for a house, a pet, future kids, and stash some cash for retirement (knock on wood) and afford groceries.

    However, whenever I apply for a similar/advanced job elsewhere, I keep getting severely lowballed in terms of pay and it’s incredibly frustrating (e.g., if I state I’m getting paid X, and want X+5, I get X-5). My current job pays quite well but offers no maternity leave (only short term diability bc of tiny size) and a small 401k. The place I’m interviewing at today won’t match my salary–will pay $3-5k less than what I make but has superb 401k retirement options and guaranteed maternity leave and transit costs fully paid for.

    Has anyone taken a lesser-paying job to get maternity leave for the future?

    Also–in this job and 3 others I interviewed for this past year, 3/4 wanted to pay me $1k-$5k less than what I was already making, claiming this was all they had in their budget.

    Is this true, and does this mean I’m being overpaid? I can’t figure out why they’d deliberately want to underpay a person knowing that person was an excellent fit. I got 2 offers from folks and turned them down b/c of this….

    1. Stephanie*

      Could be the company size and better benefits. So they probably pay less in salary and offer better benefits (like the maternity leave). I would just figure out how much the maternity leave is worth and figure if that’s worth the lower salary.

    2. ACDC*

      I think you need to determine how important the maternity leave and 401k benefits are to you, first off. To be honest, I would probably take the small pay cut if those sorts of benefits were big deals to me.

      Also, I think you’re looking at the pay cut on too macro of a level. A $1000 pay cut, you’ll barely see a difference on your take home pay, from my experience. Assuming you get paid bi-weekly, that’s about $38 less, pre-tax. Post tax depends on your income range, but really the amount in nominal. I understand this amount adds up to a larger sum by the end of the year, but I don’t think it’s that big of a sacrifice to make in order to gain some other important benefits. If you go to a larger company with more room for growth and advancement, I’d bet you’d see that amount back relatively quickly plus more, assuming you’re a high performer.

      1. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

        Thanks; I have a feeling it’ll be at least a $3000 paycut, max $5000 paycut. Interview’s in 1.5 hrs. Guess I’ll see what happens? :/

        1. blackcat*

          Keep in mind paid mat leave could be ~10-20k (or more) depending on your salary. If you plan on kids in the next little while, that’s a big deal.

          1. ACDC*

            Ooooh that’s a really good point! I hadn’t thought about what the actual monetary value of maternity leave would look like. I knew it would be a good amount, but that’s a substantial number!

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I have no personal experience in this, but my one thought is that while it sucks to go down in pay when switching jobs, the added benefits may make up for it. Transit passes near me are $200-300/month, spread that over a year of being fully covered is a $2400-3600 value right there. I don’t know what your transit costs are, so it may not be as big of a deal, but it’s something to consider.

      The bigger one is the 401k – that one can really add up! Without knowing what your current 401k situation is like or what the offered one is, that one could easily be worth more than the $3-5k (or $8-10k, depending on how you look at it). I’d say do some math to see how the benefit differences might add up and see if it might be worth it. I’m also guessing that a bigger company may have better health insurance options so you might find some value there too.

      Depending on if “guaranteed maternity leave” means they are just legally required to hold your job for three months unpaid or they actually pay you for maternity leave, if it’s the latter that seem like that would be well worth the $3-5k in salary cut, which is (sadly) a pretty minor post-tax amount.

      This also all assumes that the new job would be comparable to your current one – if it’s a more advanced job, the added commitment and responsibility may not be worth it, but that would be for you to decide.

      And now that I’ve rambled on forever here is one more thing to consider – if they can’t meet you on salary, maybe you could negotiate for more vacation time, or other non-monetary benefits.

      Good luck with your interview, hope it goes well!

      1. Ender Wiggin*

        Yeah make sure it’s paid maternity leave. And check if the pay is 100% or not. Some companies will refer to it as “paid” when if its a tiny amount of money.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I took a cut to take Current Job two years ago because they have outstanding retirement and other benefits. ExJob was a very small company; they offered decent salaries but no retirement at all and very little insurance. Current Job (a small, stable, and steadily growing business) actually went above their stated range for me (even though it was about $4,000 below), but combined with their benefits, it came very close to what I was making.

    5. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Take a look at the whole salary package. Add up not just the pay, but the value of the benefits (stock options? Pension? premium health insurance, several kinds of leave, work from home, flex time, etc…. it “does” add up). I failed to include the value of the pension and other benefits to me, when I chose this job. I kept the job because of the great group and interesting work, and recently discovered that the pension is great. (when I was 40 something, that didn’t seem important – at 62, it is pure gold).
      I took a pay cut when I came, but gained a couple weeks a year of time off, friendly and non-toxic environment (most of the time), and a few other things. I’d still be making more on paper annually at some other places, but the pension… that’s an amazing benefit. (We don’t have a 401K b/c it’s a non-profit).
      In reality, I “make” 70K a year more in benefits than I do in pure salary. YMMV.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yes, it’s about total comp.

        Kind of like that question Alison answered recently, about why temps make more per hour. They are still making less overall, because they have no vacation or benefits.

    6. valentine*

      Don’t tell them what you make, only what you want. Employers lowball women and throw money at men. Focus on increasing salary/wages because benefits may change at any time.

  102. Deryn*

    Last week I nervously posted that I had found out that one of my former master’s program directors was out on maternity leave when I emailed her about a letter of recommendation for this PhD application cycle. My instinct was that she would definitely want to do this (she’s told me numerous times that when the time came she would love to recommend me, and my sense is that this is an aspect of her role that she really enjoys) but seeking out her beyond her work email felt intrusive, given that I now knew she was on maternity leave. I heard back from her the other day with an enthusiastic yes, and an encouragement to just text her next time. My OTHER program director/potential recommendation writer is notoriously bad with email, so it ended up that it took longer to hear back from her, ironically, but she did respond this morning with an enthusiastic yes as well.

    It’s a relief to have all three of my writers lined up (my last is my current supervisor, who has always been on board), but of course that means now I’ve done a nose-dive into anxiety about the application and selection process itself. I’ve been vacillating between “I’m an exceptionally well qualified applicant with extensive experience, a good academic background at a highly respected university, and great recommendations, I’ve got this,” and “What on EARTH makes you think you’ve got a shot?!” Statistically, these programs are incredibly competitive (think admitted classes of 4-8 students out of several hundred applicants) so I’m working on balancing my realism with my optimism. The current goal is to curb those thoughts through time management strategies and discipline to get all my materials in order by the deadline, and keep in mind that I can only do my best – it’s all on the admissions committee for better or worse, at least until (IF) I’m offered an interview. If anyone’s got tips on that particular “out of my hands” anxiety, I’m all ears!

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Ha, I posted the same below, about a job I just applied for. No tips on managing the anxiety, but I certainly know the feeling! Good luck!

      1. Deryn*

        Such an awful feeling! I can recognize that it’s a control thing – if I haven’t submitted it, I can still fix anything bad about it, or at least that’s how it feels. But once I hit submit, oh boy, that’s when the terror sets in. I’m trying to be kind to myself about it. It’s anxiety-inducing, and I know that I’ll probably have a couple of really rough nights over it, but those will pass and I WILL get everything done. I’m still in a good position at work if I’m not accepted, so it’s really a win-win situation. Just gotta keep reminding myself :)

    2. Robin Q*

      That’s exactly how I felt when I was applying for my PhD! Just remember, especially if you’re applying to smaller programs, it can take more than one application cycle to get in. A small shift in the application pool or your application the next year can make a huge difference. My biggest advice would be to get the largest number of people possible to read over your personal statement. Most people probably won’t be that helpful, but you’ll find someone you may not expect who will give you the best advice. Good luck!

      1. Deryn*

        It’s always nice to hear I’m not alone in that! This is actually my third round of applications – the first round I wasn’t accepted into a PhD program, but it did lead to my master’s program, and the second round after my master’s I also wasn’t accepted but I found a position in a lab with an incredible PI who’s been really enthusiastic about helping me cultivate my CV. Research and publications were definitely my weakest link in my application before, which isn’t an issue any more! Obviously the rejections the other two times stung, but in hindsight each time has been a pretty on-the-nose opportunity in disguise. So I’m trying to trust that if it’s a third rejection, it’s a third opportunity to keep improving myself, as Pollyanna as that feels. And yes, I will get several reviewers for my personal statement! Those are the bane of my existence, but I’ve hoping improved after a few practice runs :)

  103. Higher Ed Anonymous*

    Just a quick question: I have a colleague who frequently runs around saying, “I’m busy, I’m busy, I’m busy,” all the time, who can never respond to e-mails because she’s busy, who can never attend campus events because she’s busy, who can never attend committee meetings because she’s busy. This is the kind of thing I used to say, but I found that it had a negative effect on my mental health, so I stopped doing it. However, I’ve now heard other colleagues saying that Busypocalypse Colleague must be more productive than anyone else because she’s always busy.

    Is this something that’s good to do or say in moderation? I wouldn’t want to do it as much as Busypocalypse does, but I wonder if it’s making me look less productive.

    1. Graciosa*

      I think you might want to consider whether to combat that idea.

      There is a difference between complaining about being busy and actually doing work. The people who spend the most time doing the former are not necessarily the people who get the most done.

      My response to someone talking about how productive BusyComplainer must be would be something like, “Yes, I hear her saying how busy she is quite frequently. Do you know what she’s been doing lately to make her so much busier? I haven’t had much experience with her personally – I understand she’s too busy to respond to emails or participate in any of the committees I’m on or events that I attend. Is she on a special project of some kind?”

      It might make people think a little. If you get any pushback (her assignments aren’t really any of your business), in your shoes I would reply cheerfully, “Oh, you’re right of course, and it would never have occurred to me to think about her work load until you brought it up, but when you mentioned how productive she was I thought you wanted to share your experiences” followed by change of topic.

      I would definitely not start complaining like this – even in moderation. Real issues of work load are not handled like this by top performers, and the constant messaging about how busy you are is not the sign of a top performer.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        I don’t think I would get the response that her assignments aren’t any of my business; we’re a higher ed institution, and that’s not the norm. But people tend to be talking about the marvelous workshops she gives, or how much she’s doing for charity- so things that are either not directly related to our work (teaching) or not related at all. My impression, from limited personal interaction with her but seeing her frequently around campus, is that the reason she’s behind on things is because she’s always chatting with someone, which does make her personally very popular, but doesn’t contribute to getting work done. I also know that she tends to talk a lot about missing deadlines for paperwork we’re supposed to submit and doing things for work at the last minute because “busy.”

        I’m glad to know that I don’t need to start up the complaining again!

    2. PB*

      No, I think you’re much better off not running around complaining about being busy. If anything, I think you’re other colleague’s comment that Busypocalypse must be productive is the aberration. I mean, everyone’s busy. I’m not going to be impressed by someone else expressing their busy-ness. If anything, it’s going to annoy me. Out of curiosity, is Busypocalypse productive? Or is her output normal/low?

      And you’re absolutely right that complaining about how busy you are can negatively impact your mental health. I think your current approach of not complaining is the way to go. People will only think you’re unproductive if you’re unproductive.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        Those comments tend to be about things she’s doing outside of work, and then taking the assumption that because she accomplishes those she must also be accomplishing work at a high level. So I wonder if they don’t know anything about her work behavior and just assume that because she’s making those comments and doing other things, her work must be stellar. I personally know that Busypocalypse is missing deadlines for paperwork and always talking about how she has “less than five minutes” to get organized for class.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      I think this is one of those things like saying you’re “the ideal candidate” for a job, or using the word “quality” in a brand name. That is, the people who run around saying they’re “so busy” all the time, almost never are! 99% of the time, they’re saying it to inflate their own sense of importance.

      And also, 99% of the time, everyone else can see right through it. The people who are actually busy aren’t the ones who are telling everyone how busy they are – they’re the ones who are working and meeting deadlines, and being transparent about what’s going on when they can’t. In most offices, the best way to look productive is just to be productive.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Also, a question. Who are the people who are saying that Busypocalypse must be so productive, because she’s so busy all the time? Are they above her in the org chart, or her direct manager or close colleagues? In other words, are they people who would actually *know* how productive she is? Or are they more likely to be making assumptions based on what she herself is saying? Because again, the people who really do know how well she’s doing probably aren’t talking about it.

        My guess is that the people who are buying into this “busy =productive” line of thinking, aren’t likely the people who have the most knowledge of what’s going on. I could be wrong, of course, and you know your office better than I do! But hopefully this will give you another perspective on how much weight to put on this.

        1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

          The people who are saying this are other academic colleagues, but no, not people who work with her directly or observe her classes. I think they’re mostly convinced because she’s always talking herself up and is a personal friend, and some of them have worked with her on charity events or go hiking with her or whatever. So maybe they’re not the most trustworthy authorities.

          1. Artemesia*

            Academic productivity is quite quantifiable; someone may seem productive because ‘busy’ for a while but when the review comes, it is all there in black and white. I wouldn’t give it a thought.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        Ha! Yes, that’s a good description. She does talk to people a lot, but it’s always about how busy she is and how martyred she is and how someone did her wrong and how she doesn’t have time to chat, she’s busy!

        She talks a lot about the conferences she’s been to and the workshops she’s put on, so it seems in that respect she’s more productive. But she does it in the context of, “Can’t meet deadlines, can’t make meetings, can’t reply to e-mails!”, and she’s always talking about the grading she hasn’t done. So I think, on the day-to-day deadlines of her job, she really isn’t.

    5. WellRed*

      people who are so busy telling people how busy they are usually are the least productive people in my experience. also, do you want to imply that other people AREN”T busy? No, not unless you want to be hugely unpopular and get eyerolls behind your back.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        She seems to be pretty popular, but I do know that some other people have talked about how exhausting they find her company, because she turns every single subject into a discussion of how busy she is/how people are jealous of her for the things she’s done/her mental health issues from being busy. She pretty much loses interest as soon as the conversation turns away from her.

        And yes, most of my academic colleagues have multiple projects and classes and all the rest going on. They’re not less busy because they’re not running around yelling from the rooftops about the charity event they did last weekend.

  104. SurgeryAhoy*

    Going with a different name today. Earlier this month I received serious health news, and later this month I’m seeing a specialist. At the very least I’m looking at the kind of surgery that needs a month of recuperating, but timeline is uncertain. This also has me thinking if I want to bring up a reduced schedule with my boss, or even start contemplating early retirement. If anyone has advice about how/when to address this sort of thing with a very logical not very warm boss, that would be much appreciated!

    1. Four lights*

      I might wait until you see the specialist and have a firmer plan to go ahead. In the meantime check out all your options in terms of vacation time, disability, etc. Once you have them in front of you you can get a better idea of what you’d prefer.

    2. LNLN*

      This past spring I had surgery and planned to be off work for 4 weeks. Two weeks into my recovery I realized that I was going to need a total of 6 weeks off work. I just told my boss the extra recovery time was medically necessary for me and did not try to get her approval or buy in. There was really nothing either of us could do about it; healing just took time. It all worked out, no repercussions.

      Six years ago, I decided to cut my work hours back to 25 per week. I’d had 2 tough years back to back (4 surgeries 1 year and both my parents died the second year) and I made my proposal to my boss. Even though I knew my boss valued my contributions to our team, I was surprised when I was able to switch to my part time schedule within the month. I recently retired from that job, where I was for 16 years. I probably could not have stayed with that job the last 6 years if I didn’t cut back to part time. Good luck!

      1. SurgeryAhoy*

        Thank you so much for sharing your story! I’ve only been here for 4 years but have 20 plus years experience in my field. I’d like to reduce my schedule to maybe 4 days a week or at least one work from home day. Another option would be to start looking for a reduced schedule at a new job but that’s a lot to take on!

        1. ..Kat..*

          Early retirement can really hurt you later in life. Cutting back on hours instead would be my recommendation. I am in the USA, and I read about people retiring early, and then having to get back in the job market after years of retirement. At this point, getting a job is a lot harder. Also in the USA, paying for your health insurance before you qualify for Medicare is very expensive.

  105. Best cat in the world*

    A bit of a vent and a request for some advice please.
    I’m on a training course at work, several weeks left in the classroom and I’m waaay past BEC with some of my colleagues. They’re constantly whining and making bitchy comments and it’s starting to get on top of me. I should be enjoying this, it’s my opportunity to learn what I need to know and ask questions but they’re making me miserable and unwilling to speak up and ask stuff.
    Any tips for letting it all wash over me and getting back to a point where I’m at least able to dissociate them from the learning?
    Thank you :)

    1. AnonEmu*

      Unfortunately, the best thing here is to just stop giving a f*** about them. It’s annoying as all get out, I understand, but mentally putting yourself somewhere else (like writing fanfic in your brain) is the way I do it.

    2. Drop Bear*

      Sounds painful.
      Someone on here once said they got through a toxic work environment by treating it as an anthropological research project (hope I’m remembering it right) – Ah yes, the secondary alpha male is performing the bonding ritual known as ‘Laugh at silly jokes made by the Alpha female’, interesting – now back to the training . Perhaps you could try that. Or try to view them as if they were in a play on stage.

    3. Reba*

      I’m guessing you don’t have the kind of relationship where you could have a conversation with these folks about resetting the tone for everyone’s benefit? Ugh. Any chance the leader/facilitator could be called upon to shut this down?

      One kind of silly thing that helps me sometimes is to mentally insert “you think” or “how sad that they think” around the negative comments. Rather than just letting their statements hang there, you try to make it so that you don’t hear “this place sucks” but instead “they think this place sucks.” It’s so minor and doesn’t really address the annoyance aspect, but it keeps the negative thoughts separate from your own, in a way?

  106. KR*

    I am so very busy at work. So much that had to be done last week, or even last month but more important and time consuming things keep coming up. I want to be in top shape for new supervisor that is starting soon but we’ll see.

    And my dog peed on the carpet this morning and I woke up late. Ugh. I just want to relax and catch up on my housework and there is so much going on and I’m exhausted every night.

    Just have to keep pushing through it.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I’m in a very similar boat (but no new supervisor, and my inappropriate pee-er is a cat) so I’m also sending solidarity! I’m taking off one afternoon next week (so I can take a second cat to the vet) and I’m unreasonably excited about it. I hope you’re able to enjoy the weekend!

        1. Teapot librarian*

          Kitty just needs a vaccine booster. And I am so excited to get to spend one on one time with him, even if he IS in the carrier for most of it :-) (With three kitties at home, some of them get less one on one time.)

  107. Matilda Jefferies*

    I applied for an internal job last week – one that I’ve wanted since I first found out it was a thing, four years ago. I went through the job description and matched it to my cover letter point for point, and I asked the person currently holding the job (she’s retiring) if she would be a reference for me. I really, *really* want this job!

    So I’ve done everything I can at the application stage, and now all I can do is wait and hope I get an interview. I’m doing my best to follow Alison’s advice about “forget about the application and let it be a happy surprise if they contact you”…but it’s not easy! ;)

  108. Latkas, please.*

    I feel like I know the answer to this, but I still want to ask.

    My husband and I are in the process of selling our home – first time homeowners. Our bosses have been helpful and very understanding of us needing to (last minute) take time off for house related things pertaining to inspections, permits, any other things that happen during the work day that are not available on weekends. I hope that he won’t have to take another afternoon off like he did just a few minutes ago with his boss’ permission, but I will definitely need to take last minute half days. My job is kinda nbd on this, but his position has a whole rigmarole revolving around vacation/personal/sick time, esp bc his dept isn’t huge but services a university that takes up an entire town. Would it be inappropriate for us to write thank you notes to our bosses expressing our gratitude?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I think it’s a great idea. They don’t have to be especially long or formal, but I don’t think you could go wrong with a quick email at the end of the process, to say you appreciate their flexibility.

      1. CaitlinM*

        I would wait until the process is over, though, so it doesn’t look like you’re thanking them in advance.

  109. Is this how you ask to work from home?*

    I manage one employee who is a poor performer in general. (Yes, I’m addressing that.) She just asked me if she could work from home once a week because her commute is an hour and her husband would like her to be home more so she could help him out more. I told her that company policy is a max of two work-from-home days a month and she couldn’t do more than that. But I was also really put off by her approach. My commute is no worse than hers, and I use my work-from-home days to put in extra hours and crank out more work (in addition to doing things like be home for deliveries). But did she really approach this wrong, or am I just put off in general because I’m miffed about the poor performance? (This is my first time managing anyone, so I don’t have a good baseline for normal.) Thanks!

    1. Four lights*

      I think you’re miffed about poor performance. I think it makes sense for someone to ask to work from home form an improved work-life balance. Given her poor performance though, I don’t know if working from home would be good for her.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I think she shouldn’t have brought her husband into it — she should have simply told you that telecommuting is a benefit she’d like to use, and is that possible? (I don’t think it’s bad that she brought up her commute even though yours is the same; different people have different thresholds of what constitutes a bad commute.)

      That being said, as a manager I would never say yes to ANY amount of regular WFH for a poor performer. “As we discussed, we need you to work on X and get to Y standard. Until that happens, you need to be here in the office so I can measure your progress toward that goal” would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

      1. Lis*

        To me it seems like you need to work on X to Y standard and if that doesn’t happen WFH will stop. Personally I’ve found I get so much more done WFH because I wasn’t getting distracted by the person at the next desk narrating their work process or the other work discussion that is not part of my current role dragging me in. If the employee works better away from the office and starts hitting targets why would WFH be bad? If it doesn’t produce an improvement then cancel it and say why but at least give it a test period.

    3. McWhadden*

      I don’t think that approach would be a big deal if there weren’t other issues. It’s not the perfect way too bring it up but it’s honest and not super unprofessional.

      But combined with the performance issues your reaction makes sense. Like, in context, it seems like she doesn’t care about using that time to do good work but to accommodate her husband. I think that would be a very uncharitable interpretation for an employee who was otherwise good. But understandable in this case.

    4. WellRed*

      I think poor performers don’t get to work from home. I also think her approach was really poor (I’d be worried about how much more helping out her husband she’d be doing on company time).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes. I think she meant to suggest that she’d be using her normal commuting time to help her husband, rather than use any work time, but it didn’t sound great.

        However, if her performance is poor that’s a moot point. My argument for WFH was that I could make up some hours that I couldn’t spend in the office due to Life Constraints by working the hours I’d normally be driving. If my performance was poor that wouldn’t help anything, it would just be more poor work product. She needs to improve her performance before she gets the WFH perk.

    5. Artemesia*

      A person who is a poor performer and whose goal is to ‘help her husband out more’ should have NO work from home days. What is anyone thinking here in even considering this. Being productive is the minimum requirement for WFH (as is day care if there are kids)

    6. Mephyle*

      A person making a case for working at home should explain how it will benefit the company because she’ll be able to do her job better when working from home. Not how it will benefit someone who has nothing to do with the company. So you are not wrong to be put off.
      So that’s strike 1.
      Strike 2 – She’s a poor performer, anyway. And if the nature of her job and her performance are such that she’s likely to perform even more poorly when she’s away from your direct eye, that could be another reason against her working from home.

  110. AnonEmu*

    Good news is, have been submitting a lot of job applications. Haven’t heard back re any, but fingers crossed! Also managed to get to the dr this week and we are going to be able to head off the health issue I was worried about before it gets too much worse. Still not sure how my boss is going to react to me needing a week of light duty after the issue is fixed, but at least we caught it before it got worse than just making my migraines skyrocket.

    This is maybe a minor gripe compared to everything else but my boss or their spouse brings in free food for everyone at least once a week, and not once has anything been brought that I could eat. They know I have celiac – it just doesn’t seem like they care. But it’s very frustrating to be repeatedly left out of the “thanks for your hard work, have donuts!” just because of food allergies, especially since we’re such a small office. I mean, my boss does a lot of worse stuff, but this is sort of a repeated thing that does bug me especially since I’m working 50% more hours at this job than I was told when I signed on for the position, and we’re all swamped.

    1. Kathenus*

      I can understand how that would be frustrating. Maybe a lighthearted comment next time – something like ‘thanks for doing the donuts, unfortunately I can’t eat those, but if you’ve ever got some fresh fruit let me know!’ Tone would be really important, but it might be the reminder that you can’t eat them but also a suggestion of what you could eat. I have one celiac and one vegan on my team and I sometimes forget when getting things, but I try to either get things they can eat or get them something else within their dietary restrictions when I bring in food.

      1. AnonEmu*

        I mean, they don’t offer them to me, people just tend to leave food in the office and write a note encouraging people to eat them. My boss doesn’t even bring it up, she just tends to do it and go. But the fact that no one has ever brought anything I could eat in 6 months of working here is kind of grating, given that this happens like once a week or so. Bringing it up would be a bit forced. Maybe if there’s an opportunity next time. But what’s grating is that it tends to be brought on days where we’ve worked especially hard, as a thank you, so being slighted like this repeatedly kinda sucks. I did try a variation on that today but…idk how well that is gonna go over.

        There’s also the fact that I’m currently my boss’s least favorite / the one people tend to dump negativity on, so I also don’t think bringing it up would go over terribly well. Everyone’s in a really sour mood because of months of understaffing and unfortunately I tend to be on the receiving end of it. I am seriously trying to weigh the potential reputation hit in academia if I quit without anything else lined up, knowing my boss is already going to badmouth me because she tends to badmouth -everyone- and I overheard her mocking me a week ago, vs the mental/physical cost of hanging on until I have a new job.

        1. Kathenus*

          I get what you’re saying. Given that this does bother you, and likely will continue to every time food is brought in you can’t eat, it might be worth taking a more active approach on this. Again, trying to hit the right tone. So maybe either in person or an email to your boss ‘Thanks for thinking of us with the regular treats. Unfortunately I’m not able to eat donuts/bagels/whatever. If there’s a chance to rotate in fresh fruit some days that would be fantastic. Thanks again’. If your boss knows you can’t eat it and doesn’t care, this won’t help but likely won’t hurt either. But it could make a positive difference. Even with the other dynamics you mention, I think there’s a fair chance that the donuts are just easy and that they truly aren’t thinking about dietary restrictions when they choose them. A one-time reminder might help.

          1. Lis*

            At my work they get from the same place they get donuts, cream buns etc. In separate packaging fruit pavolvas so fruit and cream and cooked egg white and sugar that the celiac people can eat and non celiac people avoid taking until it’s clear they are surplus to requirements one of the few things they get right.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I feel your pain. No gluten for me. Rewards of pizza, donuts and bagels are really common where I work. And the people who are bringing the food are really nice and spending their own money. So I am not going to complain. Sometimes I wish being me was not so high maintenance. I don’t think you can bring this up without it reflecting badly on you (with at least some people).

      I compensate by bringing some yummy food rewards for myself. Like already cut up pineapple from Whole Foods.

  111. VentingAnonly*

    Venting:
    So apparently to one higher-up, saying you’re available to work on a weekend on short notice, but asking whether you can get a comp day for doing so makes you “not dedicated” and higher-up will complain to your boss about it. Whereas if I had done like 95% of the company did and simply not responded to his company-wide email asking for helpers, this person would not think any differently of me than he did before, and wouldn’t have said anything to my boss.

    Lesson learned. I may respond to a future request and put on a smiley face to get back in this person’s good graces. Once. And then never again.

    1. Lumen*

      Employers blow my mind sometimes. They want people to work more, for nothing, then scold them when they ask for compensation. Then it’s hard to get people to sign up to do extra work.

      HMM. I WONDER WHY THAT IS.

  112. wingmaster*

    During my 1:1, my boss told me that I need to ask more questions. I totally agree with her. I always get the job done and hit my deadlines, but I should dig deeper to evaluating potential outcomes in my work. Grand boss suggested that I try to ask 5 questions a day. I feel like the questions I am asking now, I could’ve thought of the answer on my own. So I’m trying to improve on how I ask my questions but at the same time not just blurt out questions for the sake of asking.

    1. CM*

      “5 questions” sounds like a weird rule. You and your boss agree you need to ask more questions — why do you think this is a good idea? How would it improve your work or professional development if you asked more questions? Seems to me you should focus on the “why” rather than the quantity of questions. What outcome do you want? Then figure out how to get there. And I wonder if you’re not asking “why” in your work either — like if your boss tells you “write a memo” and you produce a memo, fine, but if you don’t fully understand what the memo is for, who’s reading it, and how it will be used, then you should ask those questions to produce a more useful result.

      1. wingmaster*

        Yes, that’s what I mean. I need to focus on more “why” questions. I know I need to better understanding the process more, how my work affects other departments, how other departments work together. I am 6 months into my job now, so I am still fairly new. However, my company is growing so fast that we just need more people. My boss told me that they’re planning to have one person next year, either above me or under me, but it all depends how I do in the next few months.

    2. Lumen*

      One thing I’d recommend is going and talking to people you work with, or setting up 15-minute chats. Ask them to explain X process to you, start to finish – not to train you how to do it, but so you can understand what their job entails and where/how it intersects with your work.

      At my current job, a lot of my increased understanding and ability to ask good questions has simply been finding out what other people do, and how they do it, and why the do it the way they do.

      Some ideas:

      “What happens after I hand this off to you?”
      “When was this process implemented?”
      “Why did we do it this way?”

      If you want to be careful to sound less blurty or soften your questions (especially ‘why’, which can grate on some people), start with “Just for my own understanding” or “I’m trying to learn more of the rationale behind our processes/goals/tasks”. Use “Do you have 5 minutes to explain this in more detail?” to make sure you’re not messing up people’s schedules.

      I say “Walk me through the logic of this” sometimes. I restate what people tell me and ask “Do I have that right?” so they can correct my understanding.

      I think the “five questions a day” thing is weird, and maybe your boss is just trying to give you a measurable goal (which is fine; maybe that’s how you work best!), but wanting to expand your thinking to go beyond deadlines and goal-hitting is a great skill to develop and I wish you well.

      1. wingmaster*

        Thank you for these suggestions. Yes the “five questions” is actually a not mandatory requirement, but more of a measurable goal for me to expand my knowledge and thinking.

  113. Curiosity can have my cat*

    My department is expanding. We’ve got increased funding and some new positions may be opening up. I’ve been waiting to hear more and assumed we would all be informed of any developments.

    Coworker 1 mentioned in passing that he knew some of the details and it turned out he’d asked our manager in his 1:1. I asked if he could share any of it and he said if I want to know anything I should ask our manager.

    Coworker 2 then mentioned she’d had a catch up with our manager as her job may change slightly. And again said if I want to know anything I should ask our manager.

    So I asked our manager but she didn’t have time to chat today – she sent me a quick email before she went home saying she was sorry she couldn’t share more and to chat to the other manager in our team next week (they job share).

    So people know things and I don’t and I hate that.

    1. Curiosity can have my cat*

      Hopefully I can find something out next week but I may have died of suspense by then.

    2. Ron McDon*

      That’s poor, they should have spoken to all of you or none of you. I hate when I mention something at work and someone goes ‘oh, didn’t you know’? Makes me feel like the last to know.

  114. Most Hated*

    I’m finishing my ninth week in my new (director-level) position (although I’ve been with the agency for more than 5 years), and I think I’m in over my head. After a check-in with my direct supervisor yesterday, I’m realizing that in an attempt not to be a micromanager (which everyone told her I was prior to my starting and I wanted to prove them wrong), I’ve been extraordinarily disorganized. Some of it is external (i.e. my predecessor shared some transitional materials with me but not everything, leaving me looking like an idiot for not knowing I was supposed to have been doing certain things, we were short-staffed and I mentioned a few threads ago how I had to unceremoniously fire someone, etc.), but some of it is my own inability to say no and ultimately not help my colleagues, and the anxiety I feel in realizing that I’m expected to be a lot more aggressive because, as she put it, others “don’t want” to help me and won’t unless I ask for it. Plus I can’t shake the feeling that everyone is disappointed I’m not more like my predecessor, even over relatively simple things like he was neat and I’m messy. I take feedback really seriously and want to demonstrate that I’ve got a plan and I’ll look it over, but it seems like there’s no room for any kind of hesitation or growing pains, and now I’m also feeling like a dummy because there were all these things I “should have” been doing and like my supervisor is stunned I haven’t been doing them. Well, feeling like a dummy is an understatement. I’m having intense, intense anxiety all the time, I’m having nightmares, and I’ve actually dissociated at my desk (like I’ve actually lost time- I’ll stop what I’m doing and turn away from the computer for a minute to rest my eyes and look up and three hours have passed).* I’m conflicted about whether this is impostor syndrome gone wild and I should just try to be more patient with myself and apply myself and see if I can give it at least another solid 6-8 months, or if it’s in my best interests to just start looking for another job right now and be that person who cuts out early. Help is appreciated!

    *I know this is serious, and I’m currently searching for a therapist.

    1. CM*

      From what you’ve said, I would not just give up and cut out early. Nine weeks is a very short time! I doubt anybody expects you to be doing the job perfectly at this point — they probably expect you to flounder around for a few months before starting to get better at the job.

      You’ve made mistakes and some things have gone wrong. That’s OK. Nothing you’re describing sounds like a disaster. You can easily come back from this.

      I wonder what your supervisor said to you at the check-in. Was it like, “You’re not meeting expectations in this new position?” Or was it, “Here’s how I think things are going, and I have suggestions for improvements?” Because if it’s the latter, you’re internalizing this way too much.

      Think about whether you can point to concrete evidence of this:
      ” it seems like there’s no room for any kind of hesitation or growing pains, and now I’m also feeling like a dummy because there were all these things I “should have” been doing and like my supervisor is stunned I haven’t been doing them.”

      Or is that your anxiety talking?

      I honestly think you will be fine if you can breathe, get into therapy if you can or find someone to talk to who you can trust, and try to focus on doing the best you can without judging yourself so much. You are obviously very conscientious. You are TOO conscientious. For the next few weeks, see if you can focus on the task in front of you instead of spiraling about expectations and mistakes and whether you can handle this.

      “I’m conflicted about whether this is impostor syndrome gone wild …”
      Yes. This is impostor syndrome gone wild. Be kind to yourself. You will get through this.

    2. valentine*

      They don’t sound collaborative/supportive. Prioritize your health and look for a new job. Either your current ship will right itself or you will leave.

  115. I just want a chance*

    How bad is it to semi lie to get past computer screenings? Some places say the BA is required* and ask you to click a button saying if you have one or not. From what I can tell, if you say no your resume will never be seen by that Company. I consider myself to have a BA or equivalent (in the sense that I was almost finished with the degree when I left school and have had over 20 years of work experience since then.)

    Is it ok to say I have a BA in these situations so I can get my resume screened by human eyes? I do not lie on my actual resume and only list my college, my major and years attended. If asked during phone screens or in-person interviews I always explain that I don’t have the degree but that I would hope my experience makes up for it.
    *these are admin jobs I’m applying for not like Chief Rocket Scientist or something where education actually is a requirement.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Oof. *heavy sigh* This is a tough one.

      Is it wrong? Yes. Would I do it anyway, in your situation? Probably also yes.

      If that’s literally the only difference between “seen by a human” and “rejected by a computer,” I would very likely click that button as well. Of course you have no way of knowing for sure if that’s the only difference, or even if there is actually any automated screening going on – it’s possible that all applicants are screened by humans in any case.

      I also think, in the worst-case scenario – if an actual completed BA really is a job requirement, then you’ll be rejected by the human screener anyway when they see you don’t have one. So the risk of harm is pretty low. And if the possible benefit is you might get to talk to a human when you might not have otherwise, then it looks like a pretty reasonable risk to me.

      Signed, an anonymous internet commentator who has no skin in this game and might be giving really bad advice. Take it for what it’s worth. ;)

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d be looking for one of those programs, even an on line one, that takes your long dead course work for credit and let’s you use experience etc and finish out the degree, so it doesn’t keep getting in your way. At least see how expensive and time consuming it would be to get a minimal credential here.

    2. CM*

      I’m not sure what the right answer is here. Personally, this sounds OK to me as long as you’re being honest on your resume and in your interviews. I see computer screening as an automated process to get someone to look at your resume, and the resume as what you’re actually saying about your background. So I wouldn’t feel bad about clicking the button but I don’t know if others would see it as lacking integrity.

    3. Maya Elena*

      Your interviewers probably won’t even know the auto-filter exists. And if they are so mean-spirited as to hold your small fib to get past it against you, they’re probably also dysfunctional in other ways.

    4. child*

      Oof, I’d be VERY careful with this. My company fired and blacklisted an AMAZING manager when, during an internal promotion review, they found out she’d lied about completing her AA degree. She had been with the company for YEARS, had been instrumental in so many pilot projects, etc. An honest-to-god institution to the team. But, even though she was great, their trust in her was irreparably broken. She was on the verge of a life-changing pay raise with her promotion too, so it was incredibly difficult to see go down.

      I think you need to be honest, even if it means likely losing out on the job. You just never know when they’re going to go back to your education history/how deep they’ll dig.

      1. Ghostwriter*

        After being offered a job, don’t they do a background check that includes confirming that you graduated whatever college was on your resume? I’ve never been involved with hiring at all, but it seems weird to me that they would check for a promotional review but not for hiring.

    5. Ghostwriter*

      I typically apply to stuff where I don’t have experience doing the exact job, just transferable skills/experience, so if an application asks how many years of experience I have I just enter whatever number of years the job listing said was required to make sure I get past the screening. If I get to the phone screening or interview stage, I’m often asked to confirm stuff from the application, so I figure if it’s important they’ll notice the discrepancy and ask about it.

  116. Mazzy*

    I am so mentally checked out. There are so many managers and directors and VPs and some of them seem like honorary titles at my job, but nevertheless they are technically responsible for stuff. I feel like some of them aren’t actually their title, in other words, the titles are inflated. We had a meeting yesterday and yet again there were so many managers being managerial that I zoned out and left silently at the end, even though most of the work that needs to get done will be falling on me, which is perhaps the most unfair part, since I’m more experienced than most of them. It feels very backwards.

  117. How to say*

    I’ve had the good fortune of being able to spend the last 1.5-2 years taking stock of my life and deciding how I want to work, what I’d like to be doing, and start taking steps to get there. However, this means that my immediate work history looks a little…spotty? I’ve had 2 jobs in the past 2 years with a couple months of unemployment in between, and probably another couple months unemployed while I’m transitioning to my new school and field. How do I make it clear in my cover letters and if I get interviews that I’m reliable, I just didn’t know what I wanted, and now that I do, I plan to stick around?
    I didn’t get laid off or fired from any positions, and all previous supervisors and coworkers have good things to say about me. I just worry that from my resume alone, I appear like a flight risk.

    1. Reba*

      To me it doesn’t sound like you’re really in trouble yet — although if you left a previous job without something else lined up, you may need to be ready to answer why. I think if you have a strong narrative about how you’ve come to the work you want to do and how you’re suited to it, the fact that it’s been kind of a journey is ok! And you can say in letters and interviews, “I’m really looking for a place where I can stay and grow.”

  118. Most Hated*

    I’m finishing my ninth week in my new (director-level) position (although I’ve been with the agency for more than 5 years), and I think I’m in over my head. After a check-in with my direct supervisor yesterday, I’m realizing that in an attempt not to be a micromanager (which I am absolutely not but everyone told her I was prior to my starting and I wanted to prove them wrong), I’ve been extraordinarily disorganized. Some of it is external (i.e. my predecessor shared some transitional materials with me but not everything, leaving me looking like an idiot for not knowing I was supposed to have been doing certain things, we were short-staffed and I mentioned a few threads ago how I had to unceremoniously fire someone, etc.), but some of it is my own inability to say no and ultimately not help my colleagues, and the anxiety I feel in realizing that I’m expected to be a lot more aggressive because, as she put it, others “don’t want” to help me and won’t unless I ask for it. Plus I can’t shake the feeling that everyone is disappointed I’m not more like my predecessor, even over relatively simple things like he was neat and I’m messy. I take feedback really seriously and want to demonstrate that I’ve got a plan and I’ll look it over, but it seems like there’s no room for any kind of hesitation or growing pains, and now I’m also feeling like a dummy because there were all these things I “should have” been doing and like my supervisor is stunned I haven’t been doing them. Well, feeling like a dummy is an understatement. I’m having intense, intense anxiety all the time, I’m having nightmares, and I’ve actually dissociated at my desk (like I’ve actually lost time- I’ll stop what I’m doing and turn away from the computer for a minute to rest my eyes and look up and three hours have passed).* I’m conflicted about whether this is impostor syndrome gone wild and I should just try to be more patient with myself and apply myself and see if I can give it at least another solid 6-8 months, or if it’s in my best interests to just start looking for another job right now and be that person who cuts out early. Help is appreciated!

    *I know this is serious, and I’m currently searching for a therapist.

    2. Four lights*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this and therapy will definitely help.

      I think you should try to stay. Focus on the things you can control. Make a small list (3 or 4) of things you can improve for just this week, then revisit next week to see if you still need to improve or can start to work on something else.

      Given that your predecessor didn’t write down everything you need to do, maybe you can write down the basics of what you understand and schedule an appointment with your supervisor to go over it: “Given that the transition materials didn’t include that I need to do X and Y, I’d like to go over the main tasks of my position with you to ensure I’m not missing anything.”

    4. Quandong*

      It sounds like you’re in the middle of an intense stress storm and having a mental health crisis – I’m very sorry you’re in this situation. I advise you to see your regular doctor (or any doctor) as soon as you can (i.e. emergency appointment tomorrow). Finding a therapist is a good idea for the longer term but you genuinely need medical help immediately – I’m not saying this lightly. Take time off work if necessary to get to an appointment.

      Tell the GP/healthcare provider that you are having such intense anxiety that you’re having nightmares, and are unable to function at work, to the point of dissociating to cope. That ought to give them enough information to be able to help you in the short term. If medication isn’t contraindicated, ask whether it would be an effective short-term option to reduce your very significant levels of anxiety.

      You might also like to call a helpline for immediate assistance. What you’re describing is beyond imposter syndrome, and you deserve help and support from mental health professionals. Captain Awkward has posts about mental health resources , here is one of them:
      https://captainawkward.com/2017/10/03/guest-post-14-free-and-low-cost-mental-health-resources/

      I don’t think you have enough information to decide whether to look for another job right now. Please don’t add to your distress by trying to make this decision. My advice is to take care of your mental health as a priority – because the more stressed and anxious you feel, the harder it is to function and make decisions.

      At work once your anxiety is managed, I’d suggest you ask your direct supervisor for specific ways to manage your changed responsibilities. They should understand you will have gaps in your knowledge, and a plan to enable you to learn what you need to learn without agonizing and debilitating pressure. There is room for hesitation and learning and mistakes when people change roles. That’s part of the work environment, and there’s nothing wrong with you for being human and needing time to learn.

      Best wishes.

      1. Ender Wiggin*

        It might not even be purely mental health. There could be an underlying physical condition. Blacking it for three hours is really a big deal. Please go see a doctor ASAP.

        2. Quandong*

          You’re correct, there are other possible causes for what happened to Most Hated and getting to a doctor ASAP is the best plan for them.

  119. ContemporaryIssued*

    I wrote in to AAM a few months back but the situation has somewhat changed. In essence, I work at a head office but do work for a sub unit of the company. So far my role is 50-50 work for the HQ and the sub unit. The latter has suffered from talent leaving and losing some contracts.

    Now the head office is moving and since I told my boss I would prefer to move with them and not move to the further away office of the sub unit, my boss says the higher ups and HR are gonna re-configure my role to only work for HQ. Essentially, it’s gonna be admin but in practice I have little idea what is gonna replace my duties for the sub unit in my day to day job.

    What kind of questions should I be prepared to ask them, can I negotiate what my future role contains, and most importantly, would this be the wrong time to ask for a raise? I have been working here for 10 months and my role has changed into one with more responsibility from the one I interviewed for, partly because the team has changed and my old boss taught me some of her former duties. But I am new to this kind of negotiation. Please help, the meeting is next week.

    1. WellRed*

      I think anytime a role changes, especially if you’ve gotten more responsibility since being hired is the perfect time to discuss salary. I would also suggest you having an idea of how the role should be shaped could help make your case.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        Thanks so much for replying. I am trying to come up ideas and ways to expand my role that I can suggest during the meeting. One of the tasks I inherited from my old boss is a thing I’ve now built up expertise in, so much so that even my own current boss and people from other offices call me about to trouble-shoot. There are a lot of tasks that somebody else could technically do that I do now, so I’m going to emphasize the fact I like doing them and wouldn’t mind doing similar assorted things if my role was to change.

    2. nym*

      I would say that this is the wrong time to ask for a raise – HOWEVER, this might be the right time to ask whether compensation for the future role would be different because of changes to the role and duties. So, a little bit of nuance might go a long way there.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        Thank you for this advice. I think my title might change, and if my duties get expanded and I get more responsibility I will bring up compensation. Will see what direction the negotiation takes.

  120. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Any advice on how I can stop talking myself down and undermining myself at work?

    I have a bad, lifelong habit of saying negative things about myself, being anxious about getting fired and/or reprimanded about my work performance, etc. Recently it’s really been annoying my colleagues but I don’t know how to break the habit. Any suggestions?

    1. Four lights*

      Come up with some affirmations that you can post by your desk to read when you feel yourself coming down. Make sure you don’t have a “not” or “no” in them because often times our brain ignores that word (so “I’m not stupid” comes across like “I’m stupid.”) Try to write the opposite of what your brain is saying to you.

      You could try
      I complete my tasks to the best of my ability.
      I am capable and talented at my job
      My coworkers appreciate the work I do
      Even if I make a few mistakes, I am still a capable worker

      1. Reba*

        Yes, this is great! Miss Pantalones, have you ever tried or read about CBT? Four lights’s suggestion is similar to a CBT technique in which you challenge your negative thoughts and replace them with thoughts that are more productive and realistic. It seems weird but you sort of argue with yourself. This is of course good to do with a professional’s guidance, but there is also lots of pretty good CBT stuff online.

        Silencing the brainweasels is not easy. It’s great that even though these are well-worn mental grooves for you, you can recognize that they are not helpful and they are not facts.

    2. Asenath*

      I don’t know if you tend to do make negative statements in response to compliments – if you do, train yourself to say “thank you” and then keep your mouth shut! Get out of the habit of of responding to “Project X seems to be going well” with ” Oh, I haven’t quite finished A and I don’t know how I can get B done, I don’t know enough about that area, and you wouldn’t believe what I did with C …..”

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        It’s more that I’m really self conscious about being slow at my tasks, and I have this running inner dialogue about being incompetent, stupid, etc. My job involves a lot of physical work as well so it’s also all tied up in other problems like poor body image. But I’m really getting fed up with myself!

    3. Xarcady*

      This sounds a lot like me. I cannot stop the constant internal voice-over of self-criticism, but I have been trying to just not say out loud any negative things about myself. In other words, just keeping my mouth shut.

      I’ve been observing how other people take correction/criticism and trying to model their behavior.

    4. Quandong*

      My suggestion is to seek a therapist to help you with this lifelong habit, because you deserve to have professional support as you work on changing it.

      Therapists who use Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) or Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) may have good strategies for you.

  121. Marie*

    I have a question about hiring best practices! I am newly part of a very small start-up style team–we went off on our own after our large corporation decided to get out of our subset of the business and laid us all off. It’s going pretty well and we need to hire!

    Putting together job descriptions has always been the responsibility of our team, so we’re comfortable with that part. But once we get past that, we always had an HR department and honestly a pretty terrible hiring process. What should we keep in mind? I can basically do whatever I want and I want to do it right!

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      The number one piece of advice I can give is to be considerate! Goodness knows how many candidates have written in to AAM about interviewers who are willing to meet only during a very limited time frame, who cancel or try to reschedule things at the last minute, who ask them to come in on five different days instead of consolidating interviews, etc. Hiring may not be the most urgent item on your plate on any given day, but if you routinely treat candidates poorly because there’s something more pressing to do, you’ll find that lots of good candidates won’t want to come back for a second round of interviews, and you’ll be stuck with the ones who don’t have better options.

      And no matter how great someone seems when you meet her, ask for references and spend some time asking thoughtful questions of those references. I’ve been burned a few times by people who seemed great in the 45 minutes I spoke to them, and then were really problematic to work with. I wish I hadn’t allowed that great first impression to make me excited enough to snap them up without doing a little more digging.

      1. Marie*

        Thank you, this is helpful! The references is not something that had really occurred to me–that’s definitely something that had been on the plate of HR and always seemed like an afterthought.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          References are *often* treated as a check-the-box thing by HR, but they don’t have to be.

          Keep in mind that any references supplied by the candidate, she picked because she expects them to say good things. This doesn’t mean that the good things aren’t true, but Alison has posted some great questions in the past about what to ask to uncover issues. For example, don’t ask “What was Wakeen like when he worked for you?” because that’s likely to get a simple “He was great!” Instead, ask “If you had to change one thing about Wakeen’s working style, what would it be?” and then they pretty much have to give you a more nuanced picture.

      2. nym*

        My favorite reference-checking question: Would you hire this person again if you had an open position they were interested in?

  122. Never*

    It’s that time again – performance evaluations and goal setting. I haven’t seen this asked yet this year, so let me be the one to start: suggestions for goals when you don’t actually care about your job or career?

      1. Never*

        As far as I’m concerned, I’m already fulfilling the job description of the level above me. None of the tasks are measurable, which makes things more difficult.

        1. Drop Bear*

          None are measurable?? What measures did they use to evaluate your performance last time? Are there industry standards you could use?

          1. Never*

            Exactly. I don’t understand how they decide whether or not I’ve done a good job or a great job. Seems entirely made up.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Do you do quality work faster? Have lower mistakes? Leave customers feeling good about your company after you see to their needs? Operate independently with little need for oversight from your boss? Do people see you as an expert in X and Y and come to you for assistance?

  123. Future Director Beaker*

    Hello All!

    Long time reader here and I have enjoyed all the advice from Allison as well as all of you commenters!

    I had another negative run in with my counterpart this week and I need some help figuring out ways to deal with them. For reference, they have a long history of being an entitled narcissist (they have been an employee for 15 years, I have been at the same position for 2 years). You know those type of employees that come in for only the paycheck, doesn’t do more than the minimum, puts themselves above the team? Yeah, that kind.

    What happened:
    1. I live 1300 miles away from family, so when the opportunity arose (cheap flights!) I wanted to take the opportunity.
    2. My counterpart and I have to cover our area 100% so if one of us has a day off, the other covers. No biggie, except for Christmas. However, my counterpart is on call Christmas (we rotate) as well as the weekend before so yay, no issue right?
    3. I start the holiday convo Wednesday asking if X dates are OK, and say that it would be nice to know by Friday (so 3 days) if those work.
    4. Counterpart comes back and says they texted college kid, but the college kid has a history of never texting back, even after multiple messages, implying that it could take weeks to figure this out. I responded, well maybe we’ll have to make plans without him.
    5. Next day, Thursday, they say after ALL the texting (me: eye roll) they can make the dates work. But they were cranky that I said that we should make plans without college kid since said kid is moving across the country (which I didn’t know). They also added that they needed more than 24 hours, since they couldn’t possibly text me on their day off about it (they had Friday off).
    6. I responded in non-committal terms. but it really just ruined the rest of my day.
    7. The rest of my coworkers said that if I didn’t get an answer by Friday, I should just go to our boss and take those days anyway, but I felt that was wrong as well. Treating the holiday vacation as first-come-first-serve would not be a good strategy.

    Questions:
    1. Was three days too short? What is fair here, when one person is local while the other has family far away and flight prices change a lot?
    2. Was I right to be torqued that everyone’s holiday plans be put on hold for some college kid that can’t get his rear in gear to text pack his parents?

    1. CM*

      I’m not sure I understand. Coworker said they can make the dates work. (In #5.) So at that point, why wouldn’t you said, “Great, thanks so much,” and then go to your boss and take the days off?

      To me this reads like you are at BEC level with your coworker. Nothing your coworker did in this situation sounds outrageous to me — I’m guessing you just see them in general as making your life difficult, so to you this was another example of the same behavior.

    2. Psyche*

      I think you need to talk to your boss about the best way to book vacations and how much time should be given before making firm plans to ensure that coverage is in place. It doesn’t seem reasonable that your coworker needs to approve your time off. However, I can see 2-3 days as not being enough time for them to make sure that the schedule works for them. I don’t think that the location of your family vs her family is very relevant to the question though. Neither is whether her kid texts back promptly. The location of your family is your problems and her kids texting habits are her problem. Once there is a timeline for how long it is reasonable to wait to find out whether vacation is approved these issues should not impact that timeline.

      1. ACDC*

        I was about to say the same thing. It’s really up to your boss how this is handled. They will be able to tell you if the dates work or not, it’s certainly not up to a committee style discussion with your coworkers.

    3. animaniactoo*

      When coordinating with families who all have differing schedules around holidays, I would not expect 3 days notice for 2 months out to be a standard achievable. If you have to try and catch a flight fare, I would be upfront and clear about that and note that you’re trying to catch it before it changes so please and thank you anything you can do.

      Otherwise, I would expect at least a week to work on navigating – in this case it was her kid, but what if this is someone who normally has gatherings with a bigger bunch of family, or in-laws who have to back and forth coordinate a bunch of other family, etc.?

    4. What's next?*

      Wednesday to Friday isn’t really three days, it’s effectively two. That’s not really a reasonable timeframe to expect someone else to arrange their holiday plans in. What is fair is really something that should be determined by an agreement across your department, with your manager’s agreement, not by whether you are local or long-distance.

      No, I don’t think you were right. You were the one deciding to make holiday plans at that moment. It wasn’t “everyone’s” plans being put on hold, it was yours.

      Honestly, it sounds like you dislike this coworker and are predisposed to interpret anything involving her in the worst possible light. That’s not really a professional or reasonable approach to take.

    5. LCL*

      Answers:
      1. Vacations shouldn’t be granted on who has to fly vs who lives close. Fair doesn’t even enter into it.
      2. I can’t answer this question, because I can’t understand why you are discussing this with your coworker at all, since you are scheduled off. Why can’t you just tell manager ‘I will be out of town on my days off, don’t call.’?
      3. Bonus question-where the hell is management in all this? Are they making the workers responsible for arranging their own coverage? I’ve heard of that, I think it is a terrible practice for many reasons.

      Re question 7-why is first come first served wrong and a bad strategy? That is one of the more fair ways to do it, IF management has some rules around it. For example, limiting vacation picks so schedule studier can’t lock up all of the prime holidays with a request emailed on January 1, 1 minute after midnight.

    6. Future Director Beaker*

      Thank you for you comments.

      My transition into this new position has been incredibly stressful, but that doesn’t allow me to be bullish.
      You are correct, 100% I have let my feelings about this employee get the better of me. And 100% I need to work on this. I started hearing bad things about this employee when I was shadowing, so it has been a definite struggle to keep professional and not let me feelings get involved.

      I wish our boss was a more involved with the PTO around holidays so as to keep it fair, but they are not. So that means that we each have control over each other’s holiday PTO, when we really shouldn’t. However, I don’t see that changing any time soon.

      Thank you all for the gut check. I am going to learn from this, make amends, and be better next time.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I suggest thanking your coworker for getting back to you so soon, that you really appreciate it.

    7. valentine*

      To avoid being at the mercy of a colleague, much less their demands on their adult child, try to get a policy where you alternate getting either National Day of Mourning week or Christmas week off. If you choose another week, keep it close and during the same year. Also, get a codicil for alternate coverage so the company absorbs any personal problems and no one’s pressuring one of you to wait yet another year/forego both weeks.

  124. louise*

    Need help with a coaching and/or termination script.

    I have an employee who is able to meet the bare minimum job requirements—shows up, mostly get things done. It’s an incredibly independent role and I only see each of my employees 1-2x/month. Because of that independence, they need to have a lot of initiative to see what needs to be done without a supervisor present to give direction and natural relationship building skills to connect with the management of the businesses we serve.

    This employee is especially reserved and honestly just wants to be invisible when she’s working.

    I’ve worked her through several hard skill deficiencies but this soft skill issue isn’t improving with coaching and I can’t spend much more time with her on it.

    What’s a good script for the last coaching attempt and/or the letting go conversation so that I don’t crush her when it really is her personality that simply doesn’t meet our needs? She is so very sensitive and typically shuts down if she perceives she’s failing at something.

    1. Where’s my coffee?*

      This is probably a fit issue and not a coaching issue. End her employment with kindness and respect, explaining the disconnect you’re seeing between her work style and what the position needs; pay her a severance so she can find something that aligns with her strengths. You could also place her on a performance improvement plan, but it’s difficult to set targets and milestones for the sort of mismatch you’re describing.

  125. Midwest writer*

    I have been the editor of a weekly paper for several years now. I work out of an office on my own, with a very flexible schedule that has allowed me to work from home two days a week, with my young children. My publisher was let go a few months ago, for reasons that seemed important at the time, but now even the people who made that decision say they weren’t working with all of the facts and the full story was more nuanced. Long story short, we’re restructuring and I’m getting some new duties I’m thrilled about and others that have me worried, particularly since they are infringing on my flexibility and my time reporting on community events. Last week, out of the blue, I got a message from another paper owner who is looking for a writer for a nearby publication. I know someone who works for her, have heard fabulous things about the company and its commitment to flexibility and supporting young families. The pay is likely better (by probably $8,000), but I’d have to commute about 20 extra minutes each direction. Benefits, for now, aren’t better than what I have, but I’m also paying $6,000 a year for health and dental insurance for my family even with work assistance, and I’m not sure I’d end up paying that much to buy our insurance on the marketplace anyway. I would keep the schedule flexibility, with the owner’s blessing. The big hook is that the owner wants to make me part owner within 5 years, with a plan for sell to me when she retires in about 20 years. I’m in my late 30s.
    What should I be asking about a plan for part-ownership? I know nothing about what that means, how it works, etc. On a related note, should I even hope this paper still exists in 20 years? We’re talking very rural communities that have loyal readers now, but they are much older than the average citizen in town. This wasn’t part of our first conversation, but our second, and I’m very interested. The owner has caught me at a time of transition — I wasn’t looking for a job, but I was thinking about looking.

  126. NotaPirate*

    My current manager doesn’t believe in email. They think you should only call people or go track them down and ask questions in person. I much prefer email, it gives me a record and lets me think about my phrasing. Plus then in the future if the problem arises again I can easily search my mail to see what we did a year ago. I’m fine with communicating with manager but this is coming up over and over again when dealing with vendors, tech support etc. Also I strongly feel wandering the building trying to find someone who has stepped out of their office is a waste of time, also if they are not in their office then presumably they are busy somewhere. How can I get over my irritation about this?

    1. CM*

      Your manager is being unreasonable! It would be one thing if your manager wanted you to communicate WITH HER in this way — that seems reasonable, though a bit annoying. But dictating how you communicate with everyone else is too much. Do you really need to do this with others? If you do, could you at least follow up by email to confirm details so you have them later?

    2. Drop Bear*

      How does your manager’s manager feel about this? I’d be less than impressed if they reported to me.
      I’d push back a little on this – if you think it won’t damage your relationship with your manager/jeopardise your position . If you can’t push or it doesn’t work, can you at least confirm agreements etc via email after the conversations – with people other than your manager ? Or ask them to email you with the details? Then you’d at least have a record/review document.

    3. Temperance*

      I used to work for someone who was anti-email. She insisted that a personal call or visit was better, but I preferred email to be able to have evidence. She was the stereotypical Boomer in a lot of ways.

      Long story short, we had a situation where I was promised late access to the building for visitors through a callbox mechanism and my horrible boss made a sale contingent on that, and the building management walked it back and claimed never to have said it. I was able to produce the email chain and get them to work something out.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      I think a lot of people overuse email when they SHOULD be tracking someone down (sometimes pages and pages worth of email commentary can be forestalled with five minutes of conversation).

      But remembering exactly what was agreed to is important, too, and in that case email is essential. It doesn’t always replace an in-person discussion, but it can be useful as a backup to one.

    5. Undine*

      Can you send a follow-up email? “I just wanted to confirm that today I asked you about x, and you said y. Does that fit with your recollection?”

  127. many bells down*

    Didn’t get the job but got a very nice rejection and encouragement to look for future openings.

    On a lighter note, has anyone mentioned Alison’s guest appearance in Savage Love this week?

    1. Drop Bear*

      Oh I read that – haven’t seen it commented on though. JO for Middle Managers made me snort tea out of my nose!

  128. Kate Daniels*

    What is more important to you—a higher salary, or more vacation leave? At my first professional job, I always wished for a higher salary and didn’t really care about vacation leave. Now, several years later, even though I’m getting more vacation leave at my current job than I was at that first job, I would definitely prefer more vacation leave over a salary increase. I get four weeks, which I think might be on the higher end for the United States, but I am envious of my European friends who get so much more. If you don’t mind sharing, how much vacation leave do you receive?

    1. Rebecca*

      I get 25 days plus 6 paid holidays. I could use more. Now, time out of the office is more important to me than money. I’d even take another week unpaid if they’d let me.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Of course the answer changes based on where you are in your career!

      I now make enough money that vacation time is more valuable unless it’s a REALLY substantial salary increase. Various governments snag about half of what I earn, so it takes a big chunk of cash to really make a difference for me. But add a couple of extra days off, and that’s more movies I get to see, museums I get to visit, or just lounging. I dig that.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Completely agreed. When I was really junior, I needed more money. I reached a point in my career where I could meet my expenses and just wanted more time off. At one point I had 20 vacation days and it was lovely. Now I’m back to 15 plus Christmas week and my salary is lower, so I’d prefer the salary bump. If I get that, I’d be back to preferring more time off.

      2. H.C.*

        A good part of the reason why I switched to government – I justified that extra time off would mean more time to get chores & errands done, but in reality it just meant more roadtrips and long weekends ;)

      3. Ali G*

        I’m with you. At my last job I was making great money, but never had the ability to take vacations. I’m making a little less at my new job, but the pace and culture are so different, that I actually expect to use all my vacation time.

        I get 3 weeks vacation (I can roll 5 days a year over), separate sick time that rolls over (I think up to 90 days), all the holidays except Veteran’s Day, and true flex time. We have core hours so if I need to take an hour for an appointment, I don’t have to burn PTO for that – I just make it up. We also have a pretty generous telecommuting policy.

    3. CM*

      3 weeks and it seems SO stingy. We also don’t get all the federal holidays (Veteran’s Day, MLK Day, Columbus, Day, etc.) and I have young kids who go to public schools and have all those days off plus more. So about half of my PTO each year goes to childcare days. I would gladly trade a week’s worth of salary for an extra week of vacation. Better yet, I would gladly trade 3 weeks’ worth of salary for an extra 3 weeks of vacation! But obviously this is so dependent on each person’s situation.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I get 13 days plus 7 holiday days around Thanksgiving and Christmas, but none for most of the federal school-closed holidays, so I also have to earmark about 5-6 days/year to staying home with the kids and that doesn’t include spring break. Or kid illnesses, since sick leave is a different bucket of days. I would always have taken more vacation over higher salary even when I wasn’t earning much*, but these days vacation is even more valuable to me.

        * I was never in a situation where I was in dire financial straits due to low/no income. In that case of course I’d take more money/financial security over more time off.

    4. EA in CA*

      I just started with a new company and get 3 weeks vacation, 10 paid holidays, extra paid days off between Christmas and New Years, 3 personal days, and 10 sick days. I’m at the point in my career where I have paid off my student debt and earning a higher salary, so I would take more vacation time than a pay increase.

    5. CaitlinM*

      I was offered 10 days plus federal holidays and closure the week of Christmas. I negotiated for an extra 5 days. I also get 6 sick days per year. Previously I worked at a US-based college and got 22 days plus the week of Christmas. I live in a state that requires payment for remaining vacation upon leaving a job.

    6. BlueWolf*

      Right now more money would be nice, but we also get a good amount of leave: 22 days (sick/vacation) + 1 floating holiday + 8 federal holidays when you start, with increases after a certain number of years. Also other types of administrative leave as needed.

    7. Deryn*

      I get 208 hours (26 days) of flexible PTO. This includes vacation, sick time, and bank holidays. Relevant context: in my third year at a large research hospital in the southern US, working in clinical research, nonexempt. Each full year of service, our organization grants you an additional 8 hours of PTO, up to 10 years.

    8. H.C.*

      I get 6 weeks PTO (vacation/sick lumped together) + bank holidays & a flex schedule (9/80) that gives me every other Monday off. Only downside is that we don’t get much in the way of accrual, so anything in excess of 2 weeks are cashed out at end of each year (which I treat as a holiday bonus of sorts.)

    9. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      At the moment, salary.
      But…for time off, we have what is pretty generous for a US company (I think).
      4 “float holidays” (need approval for which day, usually one is the day after Thanksgiving, for example).
      9 federal/state holidays
      6 days a year of Extended sick leave (ie, post surgery, etc… requires a doctor’s letter to take generally after 5 work days off ). Unlimited accrual.
      And PTO (which is our combined “paid time off” for “non-doctor note sick leave up to 7 days” and vacation). It ratchets up but caps when you reach 500 hours ( you can sell it off in batches of 100 hours annually):
      * Up to 1st anniversary: 17 days per year
      * 1st anniversary to 4th anniversary: 22 days per year
      * 4th anniversary to 9th anniversary: 27 days per year
      * Following 9th anniversary: 32 days per year

      I’ve been here more than 9 years, so my holiday + PTO time off looks like:
      32 hours float holiday off
      72 hours of holiday time off
      256 hours of PTO.
      So… a total of 360 hours, or 9 weeks off, out of 52.

    10. Book Lover*

      Five weeks, plus the usual holidays. And two weeks additional for continuing education, which isn’t quite a vacation but sort of is :).

  129. EnergyNerd*

    Hello all,

    I’m a long-time reader / first-time poster. I’m starting a new job next week and am trying to be prepared for it. I’ve worked in the energy sector in a lot of different areas, but I’ve never worked directly in a utility, and this also only my second job in a contract position. Hopefully there are a few others here who have worked in the energy / utility sector that can give me some advice about what to expect in terms of company culture, and/or the advantages and disadvantages of being a contractor. My specific role will be assisting project managers on infrastructure (primarily transmission and distribution) projects.

    I’ve done my own research (Glassdoor reviews and the like), but I’m open other input. Thanks!

    1. Liet-Kinda*

      Former contractor for a DoD branch here. My recommendation: think of them always as your clients. You may work closely with them, you may earn their regard and trust, but you’re not their underling or their coworker or their peer – you’re the contractor. You’re providing a service to your client and working to earn their repeat business, in addition to doing your particular job duties. Keeping your headspace there will inform how you relate to your clients in a way that, at least for me, was helpful and successful.

      And for that reason, it can be a lonely place to be, honestly. You don’t get invited to the holiday parties, usually, and at least my clients had to avoid giving the impression of an employer-employee relationship, so I wasn’t always given performance feedback I could have used. You generally have to keep your own counsel and work in a self-contained, internally motivated way. And, of course, contracts don’t last forever, so be ready for periodic job insecurity.

    2. LCL*

      I may do a culture info posting to you this weekend. TLDR: culture varies widely, public/private is one division.
      In the meantime, read the Wikipedia writeup on the 2003 outage, and if you can stay awake read the NERC report on it. This blackout was the event that marks the hard bright line before NERC had strong enforcement powers, and after.

    3. atexit8*

      I worked contract before a few times.

      I wasn’t invited to weekly meetings presumably because there may be company “secrets”.
      My manager came to me after the meetings to give me my assignments.
      That is fine with me.

      As for the parties and lunches, I was invited some of the times and not others.

      Do your job. Be friendly.

      .

      1. EnergyNerd*

        Thanks for the 3 responses so far.

        I’m definitely looking forward to not having to deal with much (if any) office politics, since that’s definitely been problematic for me in the past partly due to my personality (INTJ for those who are familiar with MBTI). Fortunately, there will be other contractors (including ones with the same company that I’ll be employed through) that work that I will probably be working with, as well, and the people I’ll be working with are all in technical roles, as opposed to sales, marketing, and other departments that I’ve had to work with in the past.

        If it makes a difference, I’ll be working in a big investor-owned utility as opposed to a municipal one, a cooperative, or anything else. I won’t be involved in grid reliability, outage prevention, or anything like that, but I appreciate the insight.

  130. Persephone Mulberry*

    I got turned down for the job I mentioned last week with the HR screener who seemed to struggle with relating my experience to the role she was screening for. So, that’s a bummer. Currently impatiently waiting to hear back from the place I had an in-person interview with this past Monday – I *should* be a shoo-in (it’s basically a lateral move from the job I held two years ago, into a role they fill on an ongoing basis). Everything I’ve read indicates it’s a nice place to work, the pay is fair and the benefits are excellent, but it’s basically two steps up from a call center and it doesn’t lead anywhere career-wise, so I will likely keep my ear to the ground, enjoy being able to be a little more selective about where I’m applying, and not feel too bad if I’m able to move on in 6 months to a year.

  131. Dee-Nice*

    I work in higher ed, and to advance a lot of people will get the MA in higher ed my school offers. There are also plenty of people who advance without it. I have about ten years of experience in higher ed and have looked into the coursework and wasn’t interested. I’m now in an office where most of the other people have the MA and one even has a PhD. I was specifically questioned about it when I was hired and I answered honestly that I had thought about it but hadn’t had time to do more than that in the last couple of years. I’m starting to feel, based on the prevalence of people in this office who put their MA on their email signatures and event nametags, like I might get pressured about this in the near future. It’s true that it does seem to help people get promoted more quickly, but I clearly don’t need it to be successful at the level I am. I always thought MAs were supposed to be equivalent to a couple years’ experience in a given field, and I have more than a couple. Anyone out there with this degree who found it to be useful in a practical sense? Or any managers who feel like it makes a difference when hiring?

    1. Kris*

      I have a master’s in higher ed and student affairs. I had about 7 years of higher ed experience before I started on the degree. At first I was skeptical that I would find the coursework fulfilling or useful, but I was pleasantly surprised — I really enjoyed the program and feel like I learned a lot. My program stressed student development theory and the importance of using practices that research has shown to be effective, rather than basing practice on anecdotal evidence or “this is the way we’ve always done it.”

      1. Dee-Nice*

        This is a super helpful answer, thanks. Do you feel like the degree would have been as useful if you had a higher ed job that wasn’t directly student-focused?

        1. Kris*

          We had a required course on assessment that would be transferable to all sorts of jobs. In another course we had a unit on budgeting, though that didn’t go into much depth. The rest of my coursework was focused mainly on student-facing subjects: student development, diversity, counseling, issues facing various student populations, and practices to increase student engagement and learning. That stuff would lend context to a non-student-facing higher ed job, but probably wouldn’t be super useful in your day-to-day.

          That said, my focus on student issues was partly by choice — I could have opted to take electives focused more on the administrative end of things. You might look to see whether your local program has similar options. Or if it would aid your advancement in a similar way, maybe look into a different degree such as a Master of Public Affairs that would be more focused on management, finance, policy analysis, etc.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Probably the most practical course in my M.Ed. was the counseling based courses. I had interesting ones in diversity and international education, and those were beneficial. But the course I took on career counseling was by far the most useful from a practical standpoint. It also helped having that course since I wasn’t on the counseling track (because I couldn’t do multiple internships while working full time because I haven’t perfected duplicating myself), and was a great talking point in interviews.

      If you’re not sure about the program, would your school allow you to take a class or two as a non-degree student? Then you could decide “Yes, I’ll finish it” or “Nah, not now”. I know I would not have been able to move into my now more mid-level position without my M.Ed., so for me it was necessary.

      1. Dee-Nice*

        I took two classes a few years back and found them really uninteresting, but I know sometimes that happens when you start out with requirements.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I’ve been in higher ed for almost 15 years. My master’s in in counseling because that was my original plan but it works perfectly in my role as assistant dean. I get more than enough student crisis situations to keep my counseling skills sharp. I’m looking at a public policy PhD with a higher ed track. I’m really into policy now and that feels like a better fit than higher ed admin. I don’t need a degree in that, I do that every day.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      This is not a direct comparison, but I work in a field where experience can substitute for advanced degrees (per the typical job posting requirements, e.g. BS + 7 yrs or MS + 4 yrs or PhD). It’s definitely true that many senior people in my field do not have advanced degrees or a master’s at most, but the younger cohort usually have at least a master’s and typically have a PhD. It’s because of the prevalence of programs these days; since there are so many more now than 30 years ago, having an advanced degree has become a de facto requirement even when not specified if only because so many more candidates have them.

      So my take would be, if you have experience but not the advanced degree, your experience needs to be really on point if you were being compared by a hiring manager to someone with a master’s and some experience, sometimes even when the experience is less directly relevant. It sounds like your experience is hugely relevant, so you’ll probably be fine without it. And there’s definitely no point in taking on debt (if that’s a factor) or spend the time for something you won’t enjoy for a possible return on investment that you don’t really care about (promotion).

  132. AnonAnon*

    I just learned that a colleague is leaving with no job lined up because she can’t/won’t tolerate the abuse she was getting from her manager. I’m wondering what my organization can and should do about the manager.

    The manager is new to his role. He was promoted internally, after an external search was unsuccessful. I would not have predicted that he would be abusive, but he wasn’t particularly successful in his more junior role and didn’t seem to have the skills for a leadership role, so I was surprised and disappointed to see him get the promotion.

    What should happen next? The exiting employee was apparently candid with our big boss and HR about her reason for leaving, so I know they are aware of what happened.

    (I’m not involved with this at all. I’m just interested in thinking through what should happen with a serious failure like this.)

    1. Psyche*

      I think it depends on what is meant by abusive. If he was way over the line (yelling, slamming things, throwing things, insulting people) then he should be demoted or fired. If he had unreasonable expectations and pushed people too hard or demanded too much then coaching might fix the problem. Presumable he also manages other people so ideally upper management would talk to the remaining team to find out what is going on before deciding how to proceed.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It could be that she was a casualty of the management learning curve. He must have met some minimum bar to be promoted*, but actually managing someone is (probably, as I’ve never done it) a lot different than just talking about it in the abstract. I agree that if he has other reports, his manager should be getting feedback from them on this guy’s performance as a manager and act accordingly. Because if the person who was driven out was otherwise in good standing, there’s clearly an issue that needs to be addressed before that group starts losing people en masse.

        * That could be optimistic and maybe they just needed a warm body but it’s possible he came across as capable in the interview.

    3. StellaBella*

      Well, having been in this situation – 8 of a team of 18 left be/c of a yelly, rude, ignorant, pompous jerk of a boss. In the end he abused 38 people in the larger org – all of us gave testimony over the course of 8 months to the board, etc and thru HR. Eventually, 2 years after being hired, he was fired. It still impacts several folks that were on the team – me, in a few ways, as well…in the end tho it worked out for those people who did stick it out and are still there.
      I wish I had some advice. Maybe leave a management skills book on his desk with a note about how to not be a jerk to employees and refer him to this website, the section on how to be a good boss, etc.

  133. Jennifer*

    I’M SO FUCKED. My boss that likes me got another job. I AM GOING TO BE SO FUCKED AND SO FIRED IN MY FUTURE. With a team that hates me and a new supervisor who probably will make us mix and mingle? A certain person knowing I’m no longer protected? I’m just going to end up fired, homeless and dead, y’all.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        YES, ask her to lunch during her last two weeks and tell her “you’re getting out, I need out too, halp?”

        I did this two jobs ago and although I ended up finding another job on my own, my soon-to-be-ex-boss completely understood my situation and tried really hard to help me find something new. She couldn’t just take me with her because she was moving to a sister company and there was a rule about how many people could cross the fence, but she did go to bat for me and I’ll always appreciate her for that.

        1. Jennifer*

          I already asked to let me know if he finds any jobs around there for me, but that’s as much as I can do–he’s moving to the opposite end of the state.

      2. Jennifer*

        Nah, not really an option in our line of work unless something there opens up. I wish. He said he’d be a reference for me and things like that though.

    2. Elizabeth W.*

      I don’t have any advice but sending good vibes.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  134. Trixie*

    For once, a good problem to have.

    Courtesy of full tuition assistance, I can take online classes. I started with two classes this fall and while lower level classes, I have a good sense of reading and independent study required. Looking at spring, I’m considering three classes. I should add these are not terribly difficult classes geared for folks who work full time and yet qualify towards finishing my undergrad. I’m considering the third class which is essentially Adult Math for non-math people. I found the online seminar series and thought I could study them between semesters, giving me a leg up before class officially begins.

    Lofty goal or terrible idea?

    Summer would be so much better for three classes but I’m officially limited to two.

    1. ACDC*

      I think it entirely depends on your workload with work, workload with school, and overall time management skills. If you often come home from work feeling exhausted or drained, then I would only recommend 2 classes as to not add to the stress. However, if your days are pretty low-key and you come home with a reasonably good energy level, then I’d say go for it. If you think you can handle it all at once, do it! It’ll get you one step closer to finishing.

  135. Sakura*

    I am having such a hard time right now. I am a teacher, and I have had to leave my position due to a cross country move. I offered to stay as long as possible, with an end date of around December. I offered to assist with the transition as much as possible. I was completely shocked when my principal set my end date for a week after – not even enough time to set any appts while I still had insurance, no time to save more money…and most of all I felt completely disrespected. This would have been my 4th year at that school (second under this principal) and I have given so much to this school that I have literally no life outside my work.

    I made my peace with that, and I didn’t even complain when I didn’t get reimbursed the $500 I spent on my classroom (I work at a catholic school and this is a week’s worth of pay for me). However, I am trying to work toward the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan and my principal is refusing to certify my employment. All she has to do is sign a piece of paper stating I worked the years that I worked. That’s all. She’s refusing to do it. I know that legally I have no recourse here and there’s not much I can do. I’m just incredibly hurt that after all I gave to that school I’m being treated so terribly. I’m moving this week and there isn’t any time to go chase this principal down and she won’t respond to any of my emails. :(

    1. Antilles*

      I am not familiar with the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program in particular, so I’m just tossing out ideas here, but…
      1.) Can you contact whoever runs the plan and ask about alternatives to verify your employment? I can’t imagine that this hasn’t happened before; I’d guess they have a pre-set procedure for verifying things when someone is unavailable/refuses to do the paperwork.
      2.) Do you have copies of pay stubs, an employment agreement (if relevant), performance reviews, and other sorts of documents? Even things like lesson plans and the like. These could help ‘prove your case’ and certify that you worked there even if she refuses to sign the form.
      3.) Is there someone over her head you can go to? The superintendent’s office may be willing to sign off on the documents themselves (if possible) or order her to fix it.
      4.) You said you have no legal recourse here, but I’m not sure that’s exactly true – even if she’s legally in the clear, there’s a reasonable chance that a lawyer sending him a certified-mail letter on legal letterhead (copies to the superintendent and the school board, of course) will get your form signed.

      1. CaitlinM*

        Your insurance should last through the end of the month, not through the last day of your employment. Check into that. Also look into COBRA.

        1. Faith*

          Is that the actual law or is that company/insurance specific? Because I’ve left two employers in the past, and in one case I was told that my insurance would run out at the end of the month, and in the second case I was told that my benefits would cut off on my last day. I actually didn’t find out about that until my last day, so I just left the office early, went into my dentist’s office and told him “I have 1,500 in my FSA that I need to blow today. Let’s do every single thing I’ve been putting off for years.”

        2. CAA*

          It is not correct that insurance will always last through the end of the month in which you leave your employment. It depends on the employer and the insurance company.

    2. WWF*

      Sorry you are being treated that way. Refusing to certify your employment is simply spiteful. Is the school affiliated with a church? If so, I would visit the rectory immediately and discuss all of the issues you mention above with a priest or administrator. Escalate it to the diocese if necessary even if you need to do it from cross-country. You have nothing to lose with this principal – I wouldn’t trust her as a reference.

    3. caryatis*

      There’s no reason that your supervisor has to be the one to certify employment. HR, payroll or almost any administrator ought to be able to verify your employment dates.

      If that doesn’t work, this is important enough that I would consider getting a lawyer to request it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. I know you’re pressed for time and moving is a huge headache, but please find someone else at the school or above the principal to certify employment, and also pursue that $500. If you were due for reimbursement, that should be the case whether the principal wants to approve it personally or not. I mean, assume you won’t get it, but make it known to everyone that the principal is shortchanging you on all fronts. That’s just not okay and you can complain about it. I don’t think anyone else is going to say, well it’s only a week’s pay… or it’s only your service loan forgiveness, and make you suffer except the principal and she apparently sucks.

    5. School Psych*

      Seconding what others have said that it doesn’t have to be an administrator at the specific school you worked at that certifies your employment. Someone at the administrative level in the archdiocese you work for can sign off on your loan forgiveness paper-work. I have not personally gone through this, but lots of people I went to grad school with did and the HR department from the districts they worked in did their paperwork. They did have to specify the school/s that the person had worked in though, since whether you qualify is based on the demographics of the place you worked. Good luck!

  136. DoctorateStrange*

    I think I’m resenting two coworkers.

    So, context: we work in the library, all three of us are assistants. I’m a woman. They’re men. I feel that their male privilege lets them get away with things that I cannot.

    They have both told me that they selected this assistant job because they “settled.” They needed a job to pay the bills while they concentrated on their creative stuff outside of work hours. Which is fine, but that carries into their attitudes. They’re both rather reserved and do not go all the way with helping out patrons, such as just pointing them to where a book is instead of getting up from the desk and showing where exactly it is (which is a big deal when we have first-time visitors). They always look bored at their work and they do not bother creating any programs (I’m the only assistant that does.) Their attitudes are essentially la-di-da about everything.

    Meanwhile, I put my 110% on everything. Even before I finish a project, I’m already thinking of the next one to do. I have been complimented by my bosses and patrons for having an enthusiastic, personable manner. I didn’t get this assistant job just because it was there. I am in library school and I am planning on moving up to become a librarian in the future. I started as a shelver, became a lab assistant, and then a part-time assistant before making it full-time in the three years I have been working at this place. I applied two times before I got hired on as a full-time assistant. I worked hard to get here and I am still working hard to move up.

    I’ve noticed that when myself and other women tend to be reserved on certain days, people will claim we’re being rude or standoffish, even if we’re merely not smiling. The men can get away with coming off grumpy, but we can’t get away with not having a 100-watt grin. I also feel that I am making more effort on assignments and I feel irritated when they choose to be lazy. I am trying really hard not to snap at them because of this.

    1. ACDC*

      Have you been getting good feedback from supervisors? I don’t blame you for feeling resentful, but I’d be willing to bet your hard work is noticed and will allow you to continue to advance in your career (congrats on the progress you’ve already made!). You’re always going to have coworkers who view the job as just a job that they have to endure, but they likely won’t get very far with that attitude. As for the disparity between patrons treating you and your female coworkers differently than the male coworkers, unfortunately, that’s just a fact of life that all of us ladies have to deal with especially in the workplace. All in all, I think you’re probably doing an awesome job and the people whose opinions matter know that too!

    2. Dexy*

      I don’t know, it sounds to me as though your supervisors have acknowledged your hard work and demonstrated appreciation. Have your male colleagues been complimented or praised for their work as well? I’m not sure who the “people” are that are complaining about the lack of women smiling… but if you’re talking about library visitors, they come in all shapes and sizes — sexism included. And while it’s wrong and irritating AF, as long as those you work with are pleased with your work and you’re satisfied with what you’re working on, I’m not sure what there is to be upset about. Your colleagues sound like they’re trying to justify their behavior, let them. Providing it doesn’t impact your work load or ability to do your job.

    3. Ender Wiggin*

      Look on the bright side – these guys are your competition for promotion. Your bosses acknowledge that you’re really good, and they’ve told you fiercely that they have no interest in getting promotions since this isn’t a career for them. No easy will they get promoted over you.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      TL;DR: So if these lumps at the desk are actually creating more reference desk work for you (or preventing you from getting your other work done in a timely manner) because you’re having to deal with the “back-wash” from their sub-standard service, you have standing to ask your boss to tell them about how ineffective pointing is as a strategy, and that their more active and interested engagement with servicing patrons would probably solve those problems.

      (Long post warning): I zeroed in on this immediately …

      They … both … do not go all the way with helping out patrons, such as just pointing them to where a book is instead of getting up from the desk and showing where exactly it is (which is a big deal when we have first-time visitors).

      … because almost 30 years ago, when I was a 26-year-old librarian, I was in a somewhat similar position.

      In my case, my problem employee was my then-36-year-old reference desk colleague, a paraprofessional (defined by our library system as an employee with a 4-year college degree, not an M.L.S., but who could work the reference desk) we’ll call “Agnes” who had worked there for many years already. We worked at the Main Library downtown, an extremely busy inner-city branch. In addition to being hired as a reference librarian, I also worked cataloging sound recordings, and screened gift recordings for the collection (among other duties), which I often did at the reference desk when it was slow. (But I always made sure I maintained my alertness and always faced the public while doing my work.)

      Over the next two years after starting work there, whenever I was scheduled for desk duty with Agnes (librarians and/or library paraprofessionals were always assigned in pairs), my irritation rose and rose as I watched her sit on her behind, and point, and point, and point. Why was I so angry? It wasn’t the pointing, per se, it was the fact that—INEVITABLY—patrons always boomeranged back to the desk because they couldn’t find what they were looking for. So, essentially, we were handling patrons twice, a waste of time for everyone. Why didn’t I “give them back” to Agnes? Because by the time the poor lost patron returned to the desk for additional help, she was already busy with “talking and pointing” for the next one. Meanwhile, I was the one handling the “stream of need” she was sloughing off on me. So it slowed down helping everyone, plus I wasn’t getting my screening and cataloguing work done, either.

      Before my annual review at the end of my 2nd year, I finally decided I’d had enough. During the talk with my boss (who was also Agnes’ boss), I described the scenario to her, and asked that she talk with Agnes to get her to understand that she really needed to get off her tush and go with people to the stacks, because her not doing so was definitely becoming an unfair burden on me (and probably anyone else who was assigned to work with her), and a net negative on my workflow.

      To my surprise, she agreed to do this, and said “You know, I’ve had other people tell me this for a while now, but *you* never said anything, so I figured she wasn’t nearly as bad as the other employees were making her out to be.” I could’ve kicked myself. If I had known she was essentially waiting for me to say something, I would’ve said something TWO YEARS AGO. Gah!!

      The story has a happy ending though: boss talked to Agnes a few days later, and her behavior improved immediately.

  137. KatieKate*

    UPDATE I JUST GOT AN OFFER YAY YAY YAY

    It’s totally within my range and I’, going to negotiate anyway and they’re sending me all the stuff ahhhhh. Thank you everyone for all of your help!!!!

  138. Pinkie Pie*

    I’m a contractor who works from home. When I’m not working, my kids are home. My boss has a habit of calling when I’m not scheldured to work and at times unexpectedly. My youngest is 4 and not an easy 4. She won’t stop talking when he calls. I’m working with her, but it’s also unprofessional. How to handle it?

    She’s asthmatic, so after treatments, she’s HYPER, making it more difficult.

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        Yep. Just because your boss is calling, doesn’t mean you’re required to answer! What if you were in the shower, or already on a call with someone else? Most bosses are reasonable people who know you’re not instantly available 27/7, so most of the time you’re absolutely fine to let it go to voice mail.

        Of course, if your boss is not one of those reasonable people, and actually does require you to pick up the phone at any time no matter what, then you’ve got a different problem. But try the simplest approach first, and see where it gets you.

      3. LilySparrow*

        Yup. It is not at all “unprofessional” to be at home with your family, and not working, when you are not scheduled to be working!

        1. valentine*

          Yes. Let your daughter lead by example and be the change. The nerve of this guy. Unless he doesn’t expect you to answer.

    2. jm*

      I can relate to this — my kids sometimes do the same thing, especially if it’s an unexpected call and I have no advance notice to get them busy with a coloring book or something.

      Could he text/email instead? That is, if you are open to communicating with him when you are not on work hours.

    3. ..Kat..*

      You are a contractor. If he expects you to pick up the phone when you are not scheduled to work, he is treating you like an EMPLOYEE.

  139. Lauren*

    Hi everyone!

    I am currently working a job on the weekends while I build up my new business. I have decided that I would like to find a part time job during the week while keeping my current job. How do I tell potential employers that I can’t work on the weekends if they ask when I can work during an interview? My family is telling me that I will hurt my chances of getting a job if I don’t give availability that is entirely open, even though my weekend job has a set schedule already in place.

    Thanks!

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’ve never understood this logic. Yes, you might be hurting your chances of getting a job because you’re unavailable – but if the job requires weekend hours, you wouldn’t be able to take it anyway, because you’re unavailable!

      The goal is not “get a job, any job,” but “get a job that can be scheduled around my existing commitments.” Far better to be upfront about that, so you don’t waste your time or anyone else’s, applying for jobs that would cause schedule conflicts.

      1. Lauren*

        Thanks for the comment Mathilda! Being upfront about it was what I thinking, but I wanted to put it on here in case anyone had any ideas or insight.

    3. Xarcady*

      Not being available on weekends just eliminates certain jobs, just like not wanting to work overnight eliminates certain jobs.

      Retail and fast food jobs are most likely going to want weekend hours, but there are plenty of other options out there. In my area, I see lots of part-time office manager type jobs, for example.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        And I’ve noticed my supermarket specifically looking for people for “office hours” kinds of shifts — they have a bunch of students (and others? all of my information comes from being a customer) who apparently only want nights and weekends.

  140. Warning: Vent Ahead*

    Just got off the elevator at work, and a lady on it with me on the way up was like, “maybe this is ugly, but I’m pulling out my gun, putting it on my bedside table and waving it at that dog if he wakes us up again to put the fear of God into him”. Y’all, I had no words. My brain kinda stopped working, but I should’ve called that out as abusive and cruel and told her that there are other options like making sure he has enough exercise or that there’s not a medical issue – especially speaking as a dog mom of a rescue who is TERRIFIED of guns. Instead, I did not hide my utter disgust and shock with a “WTF is wrong with you that a thought like that crossed your mind” look and shook my head as I got off. Maybe that’s enough of a wake up call that she is way out of line, hyperbole or no. UGH Y’ALL WHAT THE FORK?!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Not to make light of a seriously ugly comment, but most dogs wouldn’t understand why you were waving a gun at them anyway. Mine would think it’s a toy. I’m guessing this woman was having a conversation with someone else, but if she said this to you– and it sounds like you don’t know her– then… wtf?

      1. Warning: Vent Ahead*

        You are so right – dogs don’t think the way we do and aren’t going to understand what you’re doing or what you want. She said it to me and the one other woman in the elevator (who she may actually know), I guess looking for validation from both of us. I’ve seen her around, but she works on another floor higher up and I’ve never actually met her.

      2. Ender Wiggin*

        I can only assume the woman was venting in what she meant as a jokey manner. It’s very unlikely that waving a gun at a dog would have any effect on the dog whatsoever.

  141. atexit8*

    Corporate fundraising.

    I started working at a major retailer as a part time cashier about a month ago.

    The initiative is to ask the customer to donate to the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. A worthy cause to be sure.
    But I have been told that the district manager keeps tabs on this and that our store is one of those in the bottom of the barrel. The goal is $150/day!

    I do try to remember to ask each customer for a $1 donation figuring it is non-intrusive amount.

    I have even told two customers who made negative comments about the fundraising that the store is tracked as to the amount raised.

    Is this tracking normal?

    1. Anonysand*

      I worked one retail job as a teenager (at a large, national chain store) and they had a similar model during the holiday season. They “tracked” our sales/donation of a particular item by making it into a “contest” between all the regional stores to sell the most. I say “contest” because there was no prize, and I’m not sure what the point was.

    3. Xarcady*

      Yep. At my second, retail, job, we are currently asking for money for cancer research. It’s tracked, just like everything else–how many credit cards are opened, how many people you enroll in the “rewards” program, how much everyone sells. “Corporate” tracks everything, and will base next year’s goals on how well your store does this year.

      There was a point last year when we were supposed to ask every single customer: 1) did they want a credit card, 2) if they already had the store card, did they want to upgrade to a store/American Express card, 3) did they want to donate to a holiday charity for kids, 4) did they want to join the store rewards program, 5) did they want to pay $20 to join the store’s super-duper rewards program. It was ludicrous. At the height of the December holiday season, with long lines everywhere, we were slowing things down by asking all these questions. But we had to, because Corporate had set high goals for us.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Besides that kind of tracking, there’s always the tracking by secret shoppers. When a shopper wants help finding an item, did you offer to walk them to the item? If the item was out-of-stock, did you offer to order it for them? The worst was, did you attempt to sell (upsell?) the shopper additional related items? All sorts of extra things. And they wonder why you didn’t get your stocking finished on time?

      2. It*

        Playing phone tag with a hiring manager. Missed their call yesterday. Called back today and was told they’d be out of the office until 3:00 pm this afternoon. Will call them back then. Hope they make it back to the office today. Probably just a screening interview.

  142. Roja*

    Etiquette question regarding thesis research. My research requires me to teach several classes for a month; I’m already teaching a few classes year-round, but because another class was cancelled due to lack of enrollment, I’ve had two teachers in the area kindly allow me to teach their classes for a month. I’m not getting paid, and they’re getting to take class while still getting their normal pay (a real perk in our field). They and their students are wonderful to work with, and I’ve definitely expressed my appreciation verbally, multiple times.

    Anyways, my mother makes greeting cards and offered today to give me a few to send to them as thank-you notes. It feels… I don’t know, very weird sending handmade cards, however pretty (because she does make very nice cards!). It also feels very weird to send notes to people who are very much my peers, one of whom is in the same dance company that I’m a part of and we’re in rehearsals and performances together regularly. Do I send handmade cards? Regular cards? No cards? I want to make sure to keep communicating how much I appreciate their letting me do this, but I also don’t want it to be overkill.

    1. Lumen*

      Nothing weird about it. Send the lovely handmade cards and if they mention them, just say yes, your mother makes them and you wanted to send something special to express your appreciation.

      Don’t send a card every week. Don’t send big fruit baskets. They’re getting something out of this too, remember. But a pretty handmade card? Not overkill.

    2. Notthemomma*

      A handmade card, or handwritten note, is always more personal than a store-purchased card and conveys that you think highly of the recipient. After the last class, thank them again verbally, and within a few days send the card/note with a paragraph or two on how appreciative you are, mention something you took away from it, and end with something about how you will pay their kindness forward.

    3. Roja*

      Thanks for the advice! I’m going to go with the handmade ones; they really are very pretty. It was either that or (also rather pretty) store-bought cards that are blank on the inside, but who can resist sending such a gorgeous card? Not sure why I was so conflicted over this. Looking back it’s kind of like… yes…? Send the card, duh? So thanks for helping me get my head on straight!

  143. Not a dr*

    Any managers out there, how do you feel when a normally good employee has a bad day/week.

    Today I just can’t concentrate, I am tired, easily distracted. I had surgery about a month ago but should be feeling more like myself by now. (I am going to see a Dr about this tiredness).

    Normally I can rally through, but today I really couldn’t. I would have just taken an early day, but I have a 4pm meeting.

    Also, anyone have any tips?

    1. Spice for this*

      To help you feel less tired: Get up and do some stretches, maybe go outside for some fresh air, drink more water, use peppermint essential oil (on wrists and/or behind the neck).
      Have your doc check your liver function. Also take a B complex supplement (take it with food in the morning or with your lunch. B Vitamins help with energy).

    2. edj3*

      When one of my normally solid employees has a bad day, I chalk that up to them just having a bad day. If it seems really horrible, I’ll just check to make sure everything is OK.

    3. jack*

      People are human, they have bad days. I would only say something if I was concerned for their health.

    4. valentine*

      Does eating at specific intervals help? Maybe you need more food or sleep than usual. If it’s sleep, try two or more hours than usual, unless too much sleep is a problem for you. If your SOP is 8, go to 10-12 for at least 2 weeks and reassess. You may also just need more days off, actual enjoyable days/vacation. I know that can be tough if you’ve taken leave. We should really have ramping leave following recovery, just to return to baseline.

      1. Not a dr*

        Gosh I wish that was an option! I am a recent grad and where I live leave is not required to be given at all in the first year of employment. I did take some time unpaid to heal. But I also need to be able to pay rent and eat.

        Struggling with a possible cancer diagnosis and multiple surgeries while also working full time is so draining. Even just the stress and fear. I also pick up side jobs to help (like dog sitting) which mean I have less time for sleep etc. I am really trying to get more sleep. But I think you are right about probably needing more time off.

        I think the vitamin advice is good! Maybe vit D and B. I have had blood tests to make sure my levels are ok, but maybe post surgery they need to do another test and see if that has changed. And I have been trying to eat low carb, though that has not being going great during recovery as taking care of myself is hard.

        Thanks everyone for your help and encouragement!

  144. SAHM*

    I’ve been out of the workforce for 7 years this February, I’ve been lucky enough to be a stay at home mom and I’ve run my own little soaping business but yea, pretty much out of the workforce. I currently have a two year old and a six month old at home (the other two are in school), so going back to work, realistically, won’t happen for 3 years.
    But I am interested in working HR, so what can I work on/classes I can take/programs I can learn that will make me a desirable candidate when I eventually do go back?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      If you don’t have a degree in HR, that’s the place to start. Certifications if you. Start getting involved with your local SHRM branch for networking.

      1. SAHM*

        My degree is in Health Sciences, but most of the jobs I’m looking at are through temp agencies or not the “best” companies (via Glassdoor reviews) and they basically want either a degree (regardless of field) or 5 years experience. I’m ok toughing it out for the first two years at a less than stellar place because I need the experience before I move on, but I’m hoping to get some advice on what kind of stuff I can learn on my own time. And no, I don’t want to work in my degree field, it was a fall back degree since the nursing program was too impacted for me to get into. Getting paid bocku bucks to stab people with needles or clean up after them, sure, getting paid zilch in the public sector to run healthy campaigns, nope. ;-)

    2. H.C.*

      Agreed with Totes on certificate programs (or at least some courses to brush up and stay current on HR-related laws and regulation.)

      Also, HR is huge field – think about what segments of HR (talent acquisition, payroll/benefits administration, performance evaluation, training/workforce development) interest you the most. Unless you really want to be a HR generalist in a smaller org.

      1. SAHM*

        I was looking at HR generalist positions, since I need a few years experience in HR before I can get some of the SHRM certs, with temp and small orgs/crappier orgs. Then figuring out from there where I’d like to specialize in/what I enjoy most. I have to admit, I really enjoyed working CS in college because I like people, but it can be wearying so I’d like to be able to balance that with paperwork downtime/mindless data crunching. I’m not really certain what exactly I’m looking for, but with HR such a varied field, and the fact the jobs aren’t going anywhere (there’s always going to BE HR), plus the salary’s are fairly nice in my area, I figure it’s a good place to start.

    3. Where’s my coffee?*

      What makes you interested in HR? What draws you to the field? (This helps narrow down recommendations—prepping for a recruitment job is very different from prepping for a role in comp or analytics.)

      1. SAHM*

        I like working with people, preferably different small groups or even one on one for a limited amount of time. I like paperwork, data entry, and being able to sit and focus in on stuff for hours. I tend to get pigeon holed into admin assistant or front desk work because of my “bubbly” personality. I’m not an computer guru, my hubs is an IT manager and I know I’m not interested in computer programming or things of that nature, I do know enough to minor troubleshoot when things don’t work the way they’re supposed to.

        1. Green Kangaroo*

          Well, to be honest, what you’re describing as things you like are going to fall more into the category of administrative assistant than HR. While it may be true that HR positions will always exist, the field is becoming increasingly technical. I work for a small (>1,000 employees) non-profit, and all of our HR Generalists have Masters’ degrees, which isn’t unusual – and we’re in a pretty rural area. I think you’ll need to select an area to specialize in (the list from H.C. above is an excellent start) and learn as much as you can about it. As also stated above, HR positions rely heavily on certifications and credentials so obtaining some of these might be a good place to start, although you may need work experience to qualify. Good luck!

  145. Mental Health Moments*

    I have just joined my local office committee for community involvement, and our mandate this year involves mental health initiatives. We have a very robust EAP program, which I’ll definitely advocate people explore and use as/if necessary, but we’re also trying to get some spaces for mindfulness or mental health awareness in front of staff. (For reference, this is an office where we bill by hour, so people need to be able to access this stuff on their individual breaks; we’ll try to put together a few group workshops but most of it needs to be ad hoc availability.)

    Any suggestions on activities or 5-minute mindfulness moment type stuff would be appreciated, or any resources I can search/read/peruse/etc. Also, if anyone has any books they suggest on the topic, I’d love to hear – I’ve read very little and I’d love to dive deeper into all of this for myself, as well as for the office. (Plus, you never know, there could be a library of materials assembled for others too.)

    1. Drop Bear*

      What do you mean by ‘trying to get some spaces..in front of staff’? Are you talking about actual spaces – relaxation room type things – or training materials?

      1. Mental Health Moments*

        Both, please. We have a relaxation room, but it is…completely bare. I’d love ideas appropriate to it (understanding that of course it shouldn’t be cluttered, or that would defeat the purpose). And training material or reading material, or information leading to poster/presentation cards, or even games or toys that people feel are useful to reset/meditate/practice mindfulness.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Does your company allow workers to work reasonable hours? If not, this mindfulness is just a bunch of BS. People are more mindful when they have a good work/life balance.

  146. Aurora Leigh*

    Sick time

    I’m kind of bitter that my job doesn’t offer any sick time (just vaction/PTO). I had to take 3 days off without pay this week, to deal with a really bad sinus/eye infection. We have a culture of working through sickness if possible, but this was bad enough that if I managed a shower that was pretty much it for the day.

    Luckily I do have a Drs note (which apparently I need to be gone for more than 2 days) since my bf made me go to prompt care and I got a prescription for antibiotics. And we can afford the missed pay (it will just slow down some savings goals).

    But I’ve been here 2 years, and I’m one of their best customer service reps (most have 10-20+ years with the company) and it just stinks, since this is the first time I’ve actually gotten really sick at this job.

    One the one hand, I feel like I shouldn’t have let my PTO balance get so low . . . but I really haven’t taken an excessive amount of time off, all though this year I did take 1 week long vacation.

    In January, I’ll get 2 weeeks vacation (instead of 1, yay!) and the start of our 72 hrs of PTO (28 hrs to start, and then 4 accrued each month) so hopefully this doesn’t happen to me again.

    Does anyone else work for companies that don’t have seperate sick time and PTO? How much do you “budget” for sick time?

    We can’t rollover time for next year but we can save unused time to use for pay on FMLA leave (if you haven’t saved any, then FMLA would be unpaid). If you leave without needing FMLA, you get the vacation paid out at 1/2 your hourly rate.

    I feel like I should save towards FMLA since that’s the only maternity leave at my company and we’d like to have a kid in about 3 years . . . but at the same time there’s things I need/want to do with my vacation time now.

    How do you manage your vacation? This is my first full time with benefits job.

    1. Nacho*

      We have the same combined sick/pto bucket at my job that you do, but we get a full 160 hours a year. I can’t imagine having only 9 days PTO and sick leave combined, and I wouldn’t beat yourself up over letting your balance get low if that’s all you start with.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      It sounds like what you have is 1 week (increasing to 2) of pre-plannable vacation time, plus 9 days of unplanned PTO that should be used for sick time and last-minute appointments. This is not an especially generous allotment, and it sucks that you can’t roll anything over. (Companies that don’t allow rollover are asking for a ton of absences in December!)

      I feel like in your case the issue is not that you don’t have separate banks for sick and non-sick unplanned PTO (most likely you wouldn’t get 72 hours of each; you’d get the 72 hours divided among the two). It’s that a) your total allotment (vacation + PTO) of 14 days this year and 19 days next year is not awesome, and also that you can’t roll over, so if you don’t plan your PTO carefully you might not get to use it all, and if you DO plan it carefully, you’ll run into trouble if an unexpected illness hits late in the year.

      I do get to roll over, but at my last job, I didn’t. I do not get sick very often, so I used up all but about 3 of my days by December. I didn’t want to risk my boss saying no because everyone else who hadn’t distributed their days evenly throughout the year was asking for the same days as I was.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’ve actually never worked anywhere that had separate vacation and sick pools, I’ve always just had one PTO bucket that everything comes out of. The max I’ve had is 3 weeks/15 days/120 hours, however you want to look at it.

  147. Tiny Seamstress*

    I got laid off today….

    It sucks, but part of me is relived. The work culture there was horrible. My boss and another coworker had been harassing me because I asked for worker’s comp after suffering from some neurological problems due to work (basically carpal tunnel, but not carpal tunnel) and my boss didn’t have worker’s comp insurance. My attorney had updated me a few days ago that based on what doctors have said, my boss will be paying my medical bills. This morning I was laid off, and my only good coworker got fired too (the only employee who works 80+ hours a week, gets everything done, and has been here the longest). It’s also funny how the part time employee and the worst performer employee are staying (they’re the boss’s family), so yeah.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      My condolences, but also congratulations, you’re free! I’ve been laid off from a terrible workplace before and it suuuuuuucks, but it ended up being the best thing for me in the long run. I hope this turns out to be great for you, too. I’m sorry that they were awful to you, and that you were injured, I wish you a speedy recovery!

      Also, I have zero legal expertise but that sounds like some retaliatory baloney. Maybe reach out to your attorney again to let them know about this latest development, because getting laid off right after it’s ruled that your boss has to pay your medical bills (when they were already harassing you) doesn’t strike me as a coincidence.

    2. 653-CXK*

      The reason bad bosses lay off/fire good people is because they’re jealous of and threatened by success by someone other than themselves, and a measure of success they’re not used to achieving. (And your the best employee who got the hook for doing their job right…old JerkBoss doesn’t deserve them.)

      I’m five months out of being laid off myself. Be glad you don’t have to step into a horrible work culture that values nothing but nepotism. As Namasta’y in Bed said, this will work out in your favor in the long run.

  148. ANON on 10.19.18*

    I have heard from a friend about a situation that happened between 2 co-workers at her company and I was wondering how you would handle this situation?
    One evening, my friend Agnes (who is a manager and reports to Bob) got a text from her co-worker (Joe). It is very late on a Saturday night and Joe is on a business trip in Vegas with his boss (Bob). Joe tells Agnes that Bob had a lot to drink during dinner and then fondled Joe (I am not sure if this happened under the table at the restaurant or later in a hotel room or public bathroom).
    Joe told Bob to stop and Bob stopped. Joe is extremely upset and since he feels close to Agnes and can tell her everything, he feels safe sharing this information with her. Joe can’t think straight and he feels like he should drive home and resign as soon as possible. He is not willing to face anyone at the office.
    Agnes, tries to calm him (Joe) and tells him to drive home as soon as he gets some sleep so that he can be safe while driving. Later that next day Agnes sends texts to many of her co-workers and shares this information with them.
    The news spreads and Bob is fired, also a few days later Agnes is fired.
    Note: The company does not have HR.
    I was wondering what you think – How should Agnes have handled this? I realize there might be some details missing. Sorry, I did the best I could I just don’t have any more information and can’t get it at this time.

    1. Nacho*

      Assuming Bob has a boss, which it sounds like he does, Agnes should have told Joe to tell Bob’s boss as soon as he could. It wasn’t Agnes’ place to tell people without Joe’s permission, and it super wasn’t her place to tell random co-workers instead of Bob’s boss.

    2. CBE*

      Agnes’ mistake was texting other coworkers to share the issue. Up until that point, her handling of it was fine, if not perfect. Maybe she should have encouraged Joe to talk to Bob’s boss, maybe she knew Joe was long past the point of working it out.
      Either way she gave wise advice to sleep before starting a long drive that late in an emotional state.
      Had Agnes kept the information private, except to share it appropriately with Bob’s boss, it’s unlikely she would have been fired, IMO.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I can’t imagine what Agnes was trying to accomplish by texting several coworkers, unless it were HR (which it obviously wasn’t) or someone else who needed to be involved in the resolution of this situation. It sounds like she might have just been gossiping. Are you thinking it was something else? Is that why you’re asking?

    4. Elizabeth W.*

      Oh holy shitballs. I just gasped out loud.

      I’m with Nacho. Agnes was right in telling Joe not to drive with no sleep. Encouraging him to tell Bob’s boss–also okay. Doing what she did put her on the Oh My God train to Nopetown.

      1. ANON on 10.19.18*

        Thank you everyone for your comments.
        I was thinking along the same lines that Agnes made a bad decision by texting the information to her co-workers.

        1. valentine*

          Most people do not have training for this and wouldn’t remember what policy was because they didn’t think they’d ever have to follow it. I can appreciate if Agnes didn’t know what to do, felt alone/stuck, and wanted advice, so the content of the texts would be crucial for me. Ultimately, thanks to Agnes, Bob’s gone.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Oops. I misread this as Joe getting fired. I suggest Agnes consult with an employment lawyer. Maybe she can get some severance or something. I don’t know (not a lawyer myself).

  149. Elizabeth W.*

    Volume 57 of Harry Potter and the Nightmarishly Endless Job Hunt:

    Chapter X, or Just Kill Me
    A friend said the place she works might be hiring in mid-December, as people are leaving. It’s a convenience store kitchen and I’d likely see people from an old workplace coming in, which would be mega embarrassing. If I can’t find anything else by then and they offer I’ll have to take it, but here’s hoping I won’t have to wait that long. Anyway, it would be fun to work with my friend, so that’s a plus. I sent my truncated resume on to her, the one I use for entry-level jobs (the full one makes me seem overqualified).

    Chapter XI, or The Last-Minute Surprise
    I just spent an entire WEEK working on a portfolio document for a technical editing job at a very large retailer (you’d know it if I said it) and then when I went to upload it, the application page said Your portfolio for Flourish and Botts should have 10-15 graphics at least. Well galloping gorgons. I accio’d in everything I could think of. Likely they won’t call me anyway, but working on the thing kept me busy and now I have a portfolio document I can customize.

    Chapter XII, or Oh Hell No
    And today, I threw a resume at a part-time job in a muggle tax office. Shortly after, I got an email for an automated phone screening. I let the number call me and then on the second question (the first was “What is your favorite movie?”* to test for call quality), I said very politely, “I’m sorry; please withdraw me from this process. I don’t like automated screening. If you want to work with me, you can call me directly. Thanks and I hope you have a wonderful day.” And then I hung up on it.

    If we don’t do it, they won’t use it. And before you @ me, only the Malfoys or Borgin and Burkes would use this lazy spell for screening witch and wizard employees.

    *Not Harry Potter; I said Infinity War. :)

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      On Chapter XII, why not reply to the initial communication regarding the automated phone screening by saying thanks but no thanks? Were you hoping for a stronger impression?

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        It came from a no-reply email through Indeed. There was no way to reply to it directly or pull my application.

    2. Aurora Leigh*

      On Chapter X, at least you’d have a stopgap if you still need it by then! (Fingers crossed something falls into place for you sooner!)

      There’s absolutely nothing to be embarrased about in that sort of job!

      Also, I love your writing! :)

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        Thanks. *sigh* It just feels like a giant, ten-year step backward.
        LOL that was so much fun to write I think I’ll make every update like this now.

      1. Elizabeth W.*

        Because it’s bullshit. 1) It saves the employer no time if someone has to listen to all the recordings, and 2) the candidate can’t ask any questions during the phone screen to figure out if they even want to interview.

  150. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I think one of my co-workers that I’m friendly with is getting sucked into an MLM. I just don’t know which one it is, because she only refers to it as “the company I’ve joined.” We’re Facebook friends and she’s made a lot of posts lately (with so many inspirational themed hashtags I want to stab my eyes out) about how this new venture will allow her to help other people clean up their credit, or become an LLC, but it also has something to do with heathcare awareness and I guess they also sell supplements? It seems like some kind of financial/health coaching hybrid? Has anyone in the AAM community heard of something like this?

    2. Cuddles Chatterji*

      Hmm. My guess would be Melaleuca (sp?) or maybe Amway and/or one of its many offshoots. Check out the Facebook group called “Sounds Like MLM but OK”, which is informative and hilariously anti-MLM.

    3. valentine*

      There was a good documentary on MLMs, but I don’t recall the title. See if you can convince her to get out while she’s ahead. Also, can you hide those posts?

  151. Jessen*

    I have a start date for new job, finally!

    It seems I was right about what I needed to get things moving. I was dealing with a case of “not authorized to think” on the process – the form said X boxes had to be filled out with Y information, and things just kind of ground to a halt if they couldn’t put the right info in the right boxes. Even if there was a perfectly good reason, the fact that there was no procedure meant nothing could be done.

  152. Persephone Mulberry*

    Apparently there is a hot new (to me, anyway) ATS out there – Ultipro? About half the applications I’ve submitted “through company website” (vs through Indeed or via email) in the last month or so have used it. It seems to do an okay job of parsing my resume (better than Taleo usually does) but once you get through the work history part, they’ve got this whole section (crossing fingers I got the HTML right):

    – Skills: pulls keywords from your resume which you can then rate your experience level for each – you can delete and/or add whatever you want
    – Behaviors (subtitled “what is your work style?”), select all that apply: dedicated, detail oriented, enthusiastic, functional expert(?), innovative, leader, loyal, team player, thought provoking(?!)
    – Motivations (subtitled “what gets you out of bed in the morning?”), select all that apply: ability to make an impact, entrepreneurial spirit, financial, flexibility, goal completion, growth opportunities, job security, peer recognition, self-starter, work-life balance

    Strikes me as kind of eyeroll-worthy, but maybe I’m missing something?

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      My company uses Ultipro as the HR system, and it sucks. Bad. Luckily, we’re switching to something else for 2019.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I didn’t encounter it myself, but it does not sound very well thought out. Are you allowed to select all of the above? Because everyone will. Or just use the keyword suggestions and force-fit them into your resume to be extracted by the system looking for those exact keywords.

  153. Gilmore67*

    This is really not a question but just something I think is good and interesting to share regarding work. I want to end Friday on a happy note !!!

    My company has gotten involved with a company that works with young adults around 18-21. They are either just out of high school or getting ready to leave. The young adults have some learning disabilities, Autism and other type of disabilities like that.

    The interns have skills trainers, teachers, placement advisors to help them transition from school to the work world. We pair them with a mentor and they do the job like they do.

    Our intern is doing so great. He is given tasks to do and improves daily. He can very well be employed with us after he graduates from the program. To see him so proud of himself as he does better everyday and all on his own makes me so happy for him.

    I want to give a shout out to teachers, placement advisors, mentors ANYONE that works with people that just need that extra TLC and work to help these young adults succeed !!

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      My laptop doesn’t have a heart emoji. Personal reasons, this is dear to my heart. Way to go, and yes!

  154. Book Badger*

    Job-searching etiquette question!

    In early August, I applied and interviewed for a part-time legal assistant job. At the time, I’d only just taken the bar exam and was kind of looking for any work, just to get my foot in the door, but I got the sense that they were looking for someone who was a) local and b) a student, and I was neither of those things, so I knew I was overqualified.

    At the interview, they mentioned at they’d be in the market for a part-time attorney soon. I went home, sent them some additional material (a writing sample), and never heard back.

    Now I see they’re advertising for a part-time attorney. I’ve recently passed the bar exam so I’m on better footing now. My question:

    1) Should I apply for this position, given that they ghosted me (for good reason, probably) after my last interview two months ago? Or should I assume they won’t hire me and I shouldn’t bother?
    2) If I do apply, should I do it “fresh” (like, as if I’ve never applied before), or should I use the email I used to correspond with them in a sort of “hey, just noticed this job” kind of way?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      You should apply. The odds are very low that whoever was hiring before is the same person now.

      I am not a lawyer and don’t work in atty’s offices, and also this probably varies a lot with size of practice, so take this with a pound of salt, but I wouldn’t do the “I’ve just noticed” thing. I *would* do “I am still interested in working for you especially now that I’m more qualified”. Don’t count on them to do the math and realize that you’re now a member of the Bar — point it out to them.

      IF you thought your interview went well, then maybe reach out to that interviewer directly to let them know that your status has changed.

    2. Temperance*

      You should apply, if it’s a firm where you want to work. Congrats on passing!

      Do NOT take the assistant job if you are offered it. Attorney job or nothing.

    3. Triplestep*

      Minor point: There is never a good reason for ghosting. Never.

      I would apply for the position, then reach out to the person to whom you sent your writing sample, let her know you’ve passed the Bar and have applied for the Attorney role. I would keep it positive and upbeat – do not mention the ghosting, even by calling it something else.

      I have been ghosted several times in the last six months (and at other times in my work life.) I sometimes console myself by saying that the people who interviewed me – the people I sat face to face with and seemed to have a little rapport with – did not ghost me. The HR person did. The lovely hiring manager probably has no idea no one closed the loop with me – it’s not his job. In your shoes, this is what I’d tell myself about this job. Otherwise, why would you want to work there?

  155. Jennifer Thneed*

    Science-Fiction Conventions?

    Who here is involved in producing SFF cons (or related cons, really, for any fandoms)? I’m not talking so much the huge comic-cons, although if you’re actually involved in producing it that could be interesting. I’m more talking about the small regional/local cons, with just a few hundred members.

    I’m in the SF Bay Area, and I’m involved with producing FOGcon. We get between 200-300 members, which feels good. Faces gain familiarity over the few days. I usually see a few people I know, and a whole bunch more people who look like people I want to know.

    I’m running the dealers’ room, as I’ve been a dealer in that room when it was really badly run and I just needed to FIX THAT PROBLEM. I’m also a fan of SFF but not so much interested in attending panels (because for me it’s hard to listen to a conversation without joining it), but I still enjoy being part of the organizing committee. I enjoy being part of something bigger than myself, and seeing people enjoying themselves.

    1. AnonEMoose*

      I’m involved in running a local to me, volunteer run science fiction/fantasy convention. Attendance hovers around 6000 or so. I’m consistently amazed at what we manage to pull off every year. The convention tries to have at least something for everyone: dealer’s room, panels, gaming, art, and so on. Also, you’d be surprised how many people get involved in conventions because they see a problem and have to fix it.

      I’ve been involved with this for well over a decade, now, and while sometimes it has its frustrations, I truly love it. I see the kids and teens running around and I think how much it would have helped me at that age to have a community like this around me.

      I also run at least one tabletop RPG at a local gaming convention (about 500 or so) each year. That’s fun in a different way, as that convention has a more relaxed feel in many ways.

    2. Liza*

      I’ve been pretty actively involved in this sort of thing in the past, initially as an attendee and then later working or helping to organise. My work mostly focused on smaller, family oriented events but I also volunteered at the more typical events. Found it to be a very mixed bag – some really wonderful events and truly lovely people, but also prone to some toxic cultures and extremely poor decision making on the part of some major organisers. Could be stressful, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t find the problem solving component satisfying in its own way!

      1. AnonEMoose*

        The community definitely has some issues with inclusion, toxicity, and so on. It’s something the event I’m working on is trying to address, but it’s a slow process.

  156. another scientist*

    this might be pretty late for responses, but: I just asked my colleague why he ignores my emails for stuff like documenting a technique he is using, or housekeeping around the space he works in. He admitted that he just doesn’t want to spend time on this stuff. I am baffled. To be fair, I am the opposite and enjoy being a team player, and I see stuff that needs to get done rather than only pitching in when being asked. But outright refusing? That is just not done here. Our workplace has a collaborative culture and besides having bad rapport, I think this will hurt his success here.

    Should I just calm down, and talk to him again with rational arguments for being a team player? (WHY does someone need to be convinced of that!) Is this too small an issue to loop in our manager?

    1. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      Is the issue really that he isn’t a team player? It sounds to me that he doesn’t see value in spending time doing the things you’re asking him to, and doesn’t consider them a necessary part of his job. And given that you’re a collegaue and not his boss, he’s just opting not to spend his time that way. So I suppose the first question is, how important are the things you’re asking him to do, and how much time do they take? (And aside from the question of time, if they’re things he hates doing, they will take more of his *energy* than those same activities would take you, which is a different thing you can’t really know, but is worth taking into account.)

      1. another scientist*

        I hear you on that last part. For me, these things would take maybe 30 minutes. I don’t know if that’s different for him. Part of the bitch-eating-crackers situation is him just ignoring my emails alltogether.

        He has made use of similar documentation that others have provided in his onboarding, so there is an argument to be made for these things being important. The housekeeping was a safety code violation, so I don’t think he gets to decide whether it’s important. He just decided that he shouldn’t be the one putting the hazard away.
        We have a pretty high degree of autonomy, which is why I ask him to do things directly, with the assumption that I could get our boss to issue the request just as well, but that is a waste of boss’ time. I have tried cc’ing the boss on the safety-issue, but that didn’t elicit any response.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Why did you think it was his to put away and why doesn’t he think it is his?

          Personally, I would approach some of this as “Listen, you’ve been receiving the benefits of previous efforts to be collaborative by other people, so it is only fair that you put some of that work back in. Not doing that creates an issue for us when we have to hunt down X, Y, Z. If nobody did it and we all had to hunt down X, Y, Z, that would be one thing. But pretty much, you’re the only person doing it which means we are all at a disadvantage when we need to do stuff that involves your work or a technique that you’re familiar with, and you get to not have that problem when you need to pick up something from us.”

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Why are you so invested in HIM being a team player and HIM being successful there? You seem awfully invested in HIS behavior. Yes, you’re a team player, but still you can only control yourself. Let him deal with the consequences of his behavior, good, bad, or ugly. If these emails legit need to be addressed, and he’s not, then sure, take it to the manager. But the things you’re describing do not seem to be critical to me.

      1. another scientist*

        you’re probably right. The reason I wrote about his attitude and his success is that I wonder if I should talk to him directly, in which case I would want to use rational arguments why it’s in his interest to change. I mean, I can’t just say “your behavior annoys the heck out of me”, right?

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          You can say that, yes, and it’s way more honest. You might still not want to say it aloud, but you ARE annoyed by his behavior and attitude, so please admit that to yourself.

          Being a team player — that’s manager and parent talk, and it’s very subjective and imprecise besides. It’s way better to figure out what that looks like in real life, and one answer is: Documenting your processes so other people have access to your good ideas. So that’s what you say to him: “You use other people’s documentation, so you can see the usefulness of it. Will you please document your process for Thing?” And then if he refuses, you put just mentally him in the “jackass” column and never be helpful to him again, because he’s a taker. (I’m not saying refuse to work with him, I’m saying don’t go out of your way to be helpful.)

          And if there really is a Health and Safety reason why he should do something, like, OSHA or the FDA would want to know about it, then you need to talk to the person responsible to make sure they know. (Best to do this in person, and ideally in a casual hallway conversation. If they need official notification they’ll let you know.) But if it’s just a matter of “his messy desk and overflowing trashcan annoys you”, you have to learn to not see it.

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Are you the lab safety officer? If not, it’s up to that person and ultimately your PI to enforce code issues.

      I get that you want someone to document their processes as that is helpful to the group as a whole, but I don’t know that anything you’ve said indicates you can force him if he doesn’t want to.

      So, maybe put it out of your mind? And I mean this in the nicest possible way, MYOB?
      After all, you are colleagues not his boss and if he’s slacking it’s not really up to you to address it. Stop emailing him, stop thinking about him, focus on your own work.

      Not trying to be antagonistic to you but I think letting it go will make you happier in the long run…

      1. TechWorker*

        I guess I have a slightly different take – I agree it’s not worth losing sleep over stuff that doesn’t affect you (and your view that he’s not a team player is reasonable and if that colours future decisions should you be the one to make them, that’s his problem). But if his unwillingness to take things on is causing you direct problems then it’s reasonable to raise to your boss – eg ‘x process took longer due to a lack of documentation’

    4. Ender Wiggin*

      If its affecting your work then tell your manager. If not then he’s just being bad at some aspects of his job which is your managers problem not yours.

    5. ..Kat..*

      “If you teach me how to do this, I can take care of some of your workload and leave you free to perform more advanced tasks,”

  157. MsChanandlerBong*

    I do not understand people who schedule phone interviews, don’t answer the phone, and then when you email them to tell them you called and couldn’t get in touch, they tell you they didn’t answer the call because they didn’t recognize the number. I don’t answer unknown calls, either, but if I had a phone interview scheduled and the phone rang at that exact time, I would pick up the call!!!

    1. LCL*

      …people do this in person, also. Many times someone in our group has been sent to a customer’s address because a customer called us about something that is part of our mission. When we meet the customer, we are told a variation of ‘I didn’t think anyone would come out.’

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Yep! They fill out a short app and take a timed writing assessment. If the writing sample is good, we invite them for a phone interview. They can pick the time from a bunch of open slots on my digital calendar. Four times out of 10, they don’t pick up, or their phone number is no longer working (and they just applied two days ago, so it’s not like I’m going back several months and calling people who have moved), or the name they put on the application doesn’t match the name on the voicemail, or some other weird thing.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I have as a weird coincidence, gotten a telemarketing call within 2 minutes of a scheduled interview. It’s annoying, but if you know an important call is incoming, answer all calls at that time and just hang up quickly with anything that’s not your interviewer.

      Also, how would they know an interviewer’s number ahead of time to recognize it as a ‘known’ caller? I’ve never gotten that information up front, and interviewers aren’t going to always assume you have callerID in the first place.

  159. Laura*

    I work in a cubicle environment. Once in a while, I need to provide one of my employees feedback that I’d like them to do something differently – it’s not positive, but not especially negative either, I think. For example, today I needed to tell one of my employees to please go through me instead of emailing the Big Boss. In general, I don’t want to provide negative feedback where it could be overheard but in this case it was a small enough deal I didn’t feel like it warranted a written email, nor did it seem like “please see me in the conference room” was the right thing to do. What would you do? Thanks!

    1. CAA*

      This is a tough one! Lack of privacy for minor feedback is one of the worst things about open office plans. In this case, I’d probably just mention it during our next regular one-on-one and say it’s a minor thing.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Q: Do you use any form of interoffice message/chat system that you could send her a quick dm through?

    4. Nacho*

      For something as small as that, just tell them, nobody will care. For actual feedback that takes more than 2 sentences to give, pull them into the conference room.

  160. at BEC with supervisor - anon today*

    I recently changed shifts/schedules and while the new schedule is so much better for me in terms of health, sleep, etc, I am at BEC levels already with one of the supervisors. I’d had a little exposure to her before on previous schedules but hoped that I was just seeing her at her worst or I was overreacting because of lack of sleep. I’ve been on this schedule long enough now that I think this is just how she is and it’s stressing me out.

    She treats me – and other coworkers, but if feels like mostly me – like a child. When there’s downtime she requires us to check with her before doing necessary but lower-priority work, while other supervisors generally trust us to make good decisions about prioritizing that work. She nitpicks my word choices when I comment on something or ask a question, but when I take her words literally, she’s grumpy at me about it. She keeps telling us not to bother her with things because we’re smart enough to figure it out on our own, but then when a mistake is made and she has to tell us about it she says we can always come to her with questions. She claims to be well-informed about current events, but when current events come up she has no idea what people are talking about – for example, she didn’t know who Kavanaugh was. Our office is supposed to be welcoming to diverse populations and apolitical, but she’s made comments that are anti-lgbt, like saying how offended she is that the ceo-type great-great-grandboss included his pronouns in his email signature.

    I made an anonymous complaint about a specific conversation I overheard and routed it to another supervisor who seems sympathetic, but so far nothing has happened and I don’t know if anything will happen. Our department recently underwent a change in leadership and I don’t know the new department head at all. The previous one was very much in favor of positive changes that would have made the workplace more inclusive and welcoming and had hoped to bring in some training to that effect – little seminars on workplace harassment and equity vs equality and things like that – but that department head wasn’t here long enough to get any of that into motion – she was a temporary placement because the previous head retired without a replacement. Our industry skews conservative and I knew going into the job that I would probably get frustrated with it, but I need to stick it out for a while to fix some holes in my resume etc.

    Part of this is just venting, but if anyone has advice I would be glad to hear it.

    1. Triplestep*

      No advice, just commiseration. I’m at BEC with my boss, and I just remind myself all the time about how I much I like my one co-worker and many of the people we work with at our company. My boss is both insecure and self-important, and always will be. It’s a terrible combination. I should pity her, really.

      Yes, I am job hunting.

      Good luck to you! You’re not alone.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I recommend looking around and seeing what other jobs are out there. Knowing what your options are can make this kind of thing easier to deal with.

  161. Not a Victim!*

    Late to the party & anonymous for this one:

    I finally confronted my manager (in writing) about the way she lets others get in subtle jabs at me in meetings. She was in two meetings in which I got jabbed at three times but people who have stabbed me in the back in the past. My boss has confronted me and claimed that I don’t get along with people, based on hearsay, not even checking with the original person — she gets her information from gossip!

    So finally she got to see for herself the way certain few colleagues have been needling me. The fact that nobody else has complained about them doesn’t mean I’m a liar. It means they pick their target carefully – someone whose boss doesn’t like them. This has been going on for a few years and has really affected my life.

    Knowing my boss has favorites would be tolerable if she weren’t also allowing her pets & pals to pick on me. I haven’t noticed them do this to others, but if they have, then perhaps instead of siding with the nastiest person, my boss needs to take a look at what’s really going on here.

    Some chronic health problems have gotten worse, and last week I went home angry and was literally sick overnight on Friday night. I just don’t need to be the whipping girl or red-headed step child at a place I spend 40 hours at. I’m tired of it.

    So anywho… my boss replied that she’s received my letter and we’ll talk about it later. All week I’ve been a bit anxious about repercussions, but at least I’m not going home angry today.

    I plan not to think about work at all this weekend, except when I’m editing my resume.

    1. Kathenus*

      Good on you for taking a concrete step to try to improve the situation. You can’t control the outcome on your own, but it takes a lot of courage to take action, so at least you know that you are trying to do everything in your power to deal with this. Enjoy the knowledge of your positive action this weekend, and good luck.

  162. Anonymoose*

    I’m submitting my resume to a resume bank for a large company. In addition to sending in your resume (obviously mandatory), they give you the option to upload a writing sample, cover letter, and references. I decided to upload two short writing samples (a newsletter and a formal report), but I’m stuck on whether to upload cover letter and references. If I do upload a cover letter, how do I write it?? Usually I tailor my “stock” cover letter to match the particular job, so every cover letter I write ends up being different. Worse–what if I find a job I really like at the company and send in a tailored cover letter and then they compare it to the stock cover letter in the resume bank? Should I upload a cover letter or leave that blank?

    Opinions on the references are welcome as well, although I’m always wary of providing those until I’m the final candidate for a position, since I don’t want my current job to know I’m looking to get out. Thanks in advance!

    1. CAA*

      I would upload a cover letter that talks about how your experience relates to the (writing?) jobs you’d be applying for and why you’d be a good fit with the company culture as you know it. If you’d be interested in disparate jobs like Technical Writing and Social Media Coordinator, then keep it general and send a more specific cover letter when you apply to a specific job. Hiring managers understand that they get generic materials when they search an existing database. It’s very unlikely that anybody has time to compare two different cover letters from the same person, but even if they do, it just shows that you updated it when you had more information and if anything, that’s a plus rather than a minus.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      Don’t give your references until you’re specifically asked for them by an actual person. Why risk someone bothering your references unnecessarily?

      And if someone really compares your cover letters and then finds fault with you, that person is working hard to find things to dislike. You don’t want to work for someone that petty.

  163. Manny*

    I feel like I need reassurance that it’s ok to job hunt when my current job promised to hire me after six months but decided to just extend my contract instead. I really like where I work and I like my coworkers but it’s demoralizing not being an actual employee despite working like one for all intents and purposes.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It’s perfectly acceptable to job hunt even if they hired you after the 6 months was up. It should be less of a surprise considering that’s not what they did.

    3. GhostWriter*

      I was in a job that kept promising to hire me but kept extending my contract instead. I thought it was demoralizing too–doing the same work as an actual employee (and being better at it than some of them!) without any of the benefits of being an employee. I regret staying so long and wish I had started job hunting instead of waiting for them to keep their promise.

      I know you really like where you work and you like your coworkers, but I’m giving them the side-eye for making a promise and then breaking it. Now you know they’ll string you along. You should look out for your own interests and definitely job hunt.

    4. Argh!*

      You have the perfect story for a potential new employer: your current employer really loves you and extended your contract, but you don’t want to be a contract employee. You want to make a true commitment and that’s why they should hire YOU!!!! <3

      Good luck!

    5. Jennifer Thneed*

      Of course it’s demoralizing. They just rejected you. It’s probably for blah blah blah corporate reasons, but it still happened. Look out for yourself, find a permanent job, and get yourself some sick and vacation time. Contracting sucks.

    6. Alex*

      It’s always OK to job hunt.

      Sometimes it’s unwise to take a new job (though this doesn’t sound like one of those times). But hunting is always ok.

  164. TechWorker*

    How should I handle ‘end-of-day’ meetings when the team works different schedules? Where I work each team has/is meant to have a fortnightly review meeting. These are commonly at 5pm, in the pub, and people give more useful feedback when they’re relaxed and not in an office setting. My team has been doing them at 3, because one team member starts much earlier than everyone else and usually leaves around 4. The problem with this is that it cuts up useful working time for those who start work 2 hours after him, and we get the less useful review because it’s not really practical to leave the office then. (We *could* leave and then come back but I think we’d lose productive time in the context switching)

    I’m about to start leading the team and whilst my boss has directly encouraged me to hold the meeting in the pub (=> later) I‘m not sure how reasonable it is to ask this guy to change his schedule (which is very possibly childcare related). Any bright ideas? Considering alternating between 3pm (maybe in a coffee shop) and 5pm in the pub? So his schedule would only change once a month? I don’t really have authority to ask him to change his schedule but he’s generally reasonable/we have a good working relationship.

    1. Kathenus*

      Engage your team in finding a solution. Let them know what you’re trying to accomplish – fortnightly review meeting, relaxed and preferably out of the office, minimize disruption to peoples’ schedules; and the challenges – different start/end times, whatever else might be a constraint. Then see what ideas they have. You might find out your 4pm person could easily work late twice a month. Or they or someone else might have a novel idea you haven’t thought of yet – maybe a two hour lunch at the pub, so the relaxed and out of the office setting just without the alcohol (I’m guessing). More minds, more ideas.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Possible to do a morning over breakfast meeting? And then hit the ground running when everybody goes in? Would that affect just him in terms of the morning side of it?

      1. TechWorker*

        Thanks for the ideas!

        The lunch is a good one except that it’s not company funded – and whilst I feel fine paying for a round of drinks during happy hour (or my boss probably will when they come along) I’m not paid enough to buy everyone lunch ;) (and don’t think it’s fair to expect everyone to pay to eat out that frequently). The end-of-day bit is sort of crucial, the idea is it’s a round up/review of all the work we did in the last fortnight and all Planning is done on a fortnightly basis? (So it’s like ‘what did we achieve’ which gets a bit out of sync if you do the review a day early). Getting advice from the team is very much sensible though (and I do trust the person with the different schedule to be reasonable!) thank you!

    4. ..Kat..*

      Can he Skype or otherwise participate remotely? Maybe not possible for him. Ask him for possible solutions – he might have good suggestions.

  165. Low-stakes Dilemmas*

    Late to the party, so understandable if I don’t get an answer.

    Background: A few months ago, I applied for a position at a company, it’s a role I’ve been working on getting into for a while now and having no luck with. They got over 50 applicants for the position (I was referred by a friend, so I had a bit more insight into the hiring process than I otherwise would), and decided to go with a different candidate. Understandable, the one they hired had more experience in the role than I did.

    They’ve posted another, similar position. Practically the same description, just for a different department. Is it worth applying? Or, since it’s been only a little over two months since my rejection for the other position, would I just be perceived as… I don’t know, too eager? Annoying?

    If it had been 6+ months, I wouldn’t be having these reservations because of how my industry works, but two months is such a short amount of time. But I worry that I’m just talking myself out of it because I have hang-ups about being seen as an annoyance instead of giving it a shot.

    1. CAA*

      Can you talk to the friend who referred you for the last opening and get her advice? She may know whether applicants from the first position were passed along to the new hiring manager or not. If not, and it’s a different hiring manager, then I think it’s fine to reapply. Not every company is organized about checking whether past applicants are still interested and would be a good fit for new positions.

      1. Low-stakes Dilemmas*

        The friend who referred me is how I know about the new position. So I suspect he doesn’t know whether or not applicants from the first position were passed along. I can probably ask if it’s a new hiring manager, though.

        It sounds like, if I find out that it’s the same hiring manager, I should probably not apply since they’d already know about me? Should I just rely on them reaching out to see if I’m interested?

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          > Should I just rely on them reaching out to see if I’m interested?

          Nope, not unless you know for a fact that this manager works that way. It’s wonderful when that happens, but I don’t think it’s common. (Maybe in some specific industries?)

          Tell them you like the company and you are interested in this position. It will probably be another month at least before you actually talk to anyone.

        2. atexit8*

          Your friend should be able to know at least tell if hiring manager is different or not.

          Even if it is the same hiring manager, there is no harm in re-applying. I would.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Apply. You have nothing to lose. This is a different job, possibly with different hiring managers, etc.

    3. Alex*

      I applied for three different jobs at my current company before finally getting an interview (and eventually the job).

      As long as the jobs are similar and it doesn’t seem like you are applying for any available job, it should be OK.

  166. Ahead Fish*

    Does anyone have thoughts on being “self-taught”? I work in higher ed for a small department, where I have to wear a lot of different hats. Since there’s really no one else that does what I do, I have no mentors or people to teach me the ropes — I pretty much build my own rope when I see the need for one. Say someone realizes we need a process for teapot making. I buy a few books on teapot making, join a forum for professional teapot makers, literally Google “best practices for teapot making,” then try to implement what I’ve found out. No one will pay for me to go to a conference or take classes.

    I want to leave this job eventually, but I’m a bit worried because and almost every skill I’ve picked up on the job comes from being self-taught. Some people are like “awesome, that means you’re this cool self-starter” — but I’m also afraid there’s really no way for me to verify my knowledge is “good.” I could show up in interviews and realize that the rest of the world does things completely differently, and I’ve been working from bad sources. Does anyone have experiences with this? Thoughts as to whether this would be a red flag?

    1. miyeritari*

      I’d say you should use whatever successes you did with your new knowledge as the qualifier for your resume bullet or in your CV. For example, you could say “Lead Teapot Maker – Teapot Success/Efficiency Grew by X%.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you have a teapot email list you can join? Even if they won’t pay for you to get proper PD, sometimes talking with other people who have “official” expertise in teapot making can give you a better sense of what missing pieces (if any) are in your self-teaching.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Acknowledge that these skills are self taught. You are in the unfortunate position of not knowing what you don’t know. So, stress your self initiative in learning this on your own time and money, but know that you probably have knowledge gaps that you don’t know you have. But apply anyways. Through interviewing, you may be able to identify knowledge gaps. Or maybe you are a good fit with your current skills! Good luck!

  167. qufromlt*

    Tough week. I got hit up to submit my absentee VP for an award. Decided to ignore the request. I have a guy on my team who’s been phoning it in for over a year now. He works from home & thanks to time zones, I think he actually works closer to 30 hours a week. I don’t care about his hours, but we determine how much work the team can accomplish based on team members times hours in a week minus vacations. So on a small team, someone consistently working well below 40 hours means we all pick up the slack. I have no idea how to bring this up without sounding like a complete brat.

    1. valentine*

      Can you mention you are delivering z amount when you expect to have to do x and see what your supervisor says? What if you only do x or y, but not z? What if no one picks up the slack? Is it clear where the slack’s coming from? Are you saying you work 7-3 but the slacker works 2 hours away and is working your 9-3?

  168. West Coast or Bust*

    Friday’s almost over, but in case anyone is still around…

    I’ve been at my current contract job for almost a year now. They’ve told me that want to bring me on full-time, but there is a hiring freeze. They don’t know when it will be lifted. My contract was originally for 12 months but has now been extended through next May. I really like this job and they’re very happy with my work, but I’ve been toying with the idea of moving cross-country to be closer to family for awhile now and have finally decided that I really want to do it. My lease is up in March.

    I was simply planning to give notice on this contract job when my lease is up and move, but this week my manager mentioned she thought she’d have news about the hiring freeze “before the end of the year.” So now I’m worried about how to handle it if they offer me a full-time job before March. Should I take it, and then quit in March? Or turn down the full-time offer and tell them I’d like to continue as a contractor and explain 3-4 months in advance that I’m planning to move and quit?

    1. Ender Wiggin*

      If you have any reason to believe they might push you out sooner if you give 3-4 months notice then I would take the offer and then quit. If you think they wouldn’t push you out sooner, then tell them you’d rather stay on as a contractor.

  169. Ender Wiggin*

    I just got an email from Google scholar saying I’ve been cited over a hundred times! I work in the private sector since I finished my PhD ten years ago and haven’t published much since. Also Google scholar only has three of my roughly 20 publications listed so the total might be higher.

    Anyone in academia – is this high? Low? About what you would expect for three 20-year old publications?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’d say it’s pretty good, but then my numbers are similar. :-). I have all or almost all of mine on G Scholar and at least for mine, there doesn’t seem to be that much of a pattern to what gets cited and what doesn’t, wrt journal vs conference proceedings, or topic, or publication date. My most cited is a 5 pg conference paper that I did more or less on a whim, while the couple of journal articles based on my dissertation have far fewer cites. Still, knowing your work is read at all is a good feeling!

  170. Anxious job hunter*

    Hoping for some insight into the hiring process. I interviewed for a job ~10 days ago, and the next day, HR called and asked me to come meet the team. On the morning of the day that I was scheduled to meet the team, HR called and told me the hiring manager wants to offer me a more senior role than the one I originally applied for. Great! When I go in, it’s more like a second interview, but it goes well (imo) and they say they will be in touch with ‘details’ early next week. Yesterday, the hiring manager calls me and tells me that the person who needs to approve the new position is on leave for 10 days, so the earliest I’ll hear anything is about a week and a half from now. They also give me a chance to ask questions about the role.

    I’m slightly worried now because I assumed the new position was already going ahead, I was about to get a verbal offer, all that good stuff, but now it sounds like there’s a possibility this new position won’t get approved and/or things will fall through? Or that the hiring manager doesn’t have the authority to hire for a more senior role, that the person who needs to approve it will want to interview others, etc.

    My partner thinks I should reach out next week and say I have other interviews coming up, and ask for clarity on the position and where I stand. I’m worried that could spook them though, especially since the hiring manager did give me a clear timeline. What do you all think – should I reach out or just let things be? Am I overthinking? Should I just relax? :|

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      They gave you a timeline, which is more than a lot of hiring managers do! You should respect that timeline. If you haven’t heard from them after two weeks, then you can get in touch and ask for an update. Just let things be for now and move on to the next thing.

    2. Psyche*

      It doesn’t sound like they are being unusually slow or leading you on. I would stick with Alison’s typical advice of move on and keep looking at other jobs. If they get in touch with you and offer you the position, great! If not, you won’t have fallen behind in your job search. Only reach out to them if you have a firm offer from somewhere else because it would not be reasonable to turn down an offer without knowing if this position will move forward. Essentially, you don’t have an offer until it is actually made.

      I do feel your pain. I had an awesome interview on Monday and I’m waiting for an official offer and it is killing me! The hiring manager went out of town the day after the interview, so I was warned about the delay, but that doesn’t make waiting any easier.

    3. 653-CXK*

      If they haven’t contacted you in two weeks, contact them (either through phone or through email) once, maybe a friendly “Hi, I’m just checking up on the status of the position.” Then, relax and move on…the ball is in their court and they will follow up with you if they choose.

      1. 653-CXK*

        Oops…just read the comment and it the “if they choose” was a bad choice of words.

        Take two…

        If they haven’t contacted you in two weeks, contact them (either through phone or through email) once, maybe a friendly “Hi, I’m just checking up on the status of the position.” Then, relax…they are already interested in you and they will contact you.

    4. Alex*

      You should always assume at any time during the hiring process that it might fall through, because nothing is really set until the candidate and the employer come to an agreement. It’s certainly possible that the new position won’t be approved, but maybe that means you will be considered for the original position if that still interests you. Or this could all just be a formality and everything will turn out as you expected. I don’t think they could be any more clear at this point with you, since they’ve told you that the person with decision-making power at this point is on leave. So, just sit tight and keep interviewing with others until you have accepted an offer.

    5. Anxious job hunter*

      Thanks for the replies everyone! You’re all correct and I will sit tight for the next two weeks and cross my fingers. Definitely not counting on this and will keep applying elsewhere – but I really want this one so here’s hoping it comes through :)

  171. HR Confusion*

    I am involved in a HR complaint for the first time in my career. I share an office with other people, including Jon and Cersei. Jon has had issues with Cersei and has made a complaint to HR about her. While I’m not directly involved in anything that has happened, I was present for some of the events he’s upset about, so HR met with me to corroborate his claims. My question is, will Cersei know who filed the complaint against her? Or will she know that HR has met with me to back up Jon’s complaints? I’m not a big fan of Cersei but I also don’t want bad blood with any of my coworkers, especially when I was not involved in any of the events that transpired, and I’m worried this will make things awkward at work.

    1. WellRed*

      I think this is totally dependent on company. I think it’s less likely Cersei will know you were interviewed but I assume she will learn who filed the actual complaint ( frankly, she should, depending on the curcumstances). Can you ask HR what to expect? Also, try to worry less about bad blood. If Cersei is in the wrong, it shouldn’t be allowed to continue.

    2. valentine*

      Things were already awkward, just not for you If you agree that the complaint was necessary, it would be great if you show Jon support instead of going along to get along. If only Jon and you were present, Cersei will be able to narrow it down. In your shoes, I would be glad for Cersei to suspect me because it eases the burden on Jon. HR may be hiding who said what by simply mentioning the incidents and asking Cersei about her role in them.

  172. Alex*

    I’m in the running for a job that would be a lateral move for me, which isn’t really what I want, but for various reasons I’m still interested in it.

    I’ve now had a second interview, and they’ve asked for my references, plus sent me a “test” to complete, which is supposedly various exercises showing how I would handle certain situations or tasks at the job.

    The bulk of this test does not reflect the actual job I’m applying for. In fact, if the job entailed these kinds of tasks, I definitely would not be interested in it. It was not in the job description. I asked the manger if the job included these kinds of tasks, and she said, “No, not really.”

    So…….why am I being asked to complete it? It is at least two hours of work, probably more like three. (Of course, the hiring manager said it should only take one….but no way. It is eight pages long and requires a lot of detail.) I hate this kind of work. Either they are either wasting my time by making me complete tests that don’t reflect the job I’m applying for, or they are lying and actually the job does include this kind of work and it is a bait and switch. In addition, they sent it to me and asked for a 36-hour turnaround time, although they agreed to extend that when I asked them.

    I’ve never had to take any type of test or do any kind of exercise for a job before, even though I know some places do it. Has anyone come across a totally out-of-left-field kind of test like this?

    I’m almost tempted to just take myself out of the running at this point, but maybe I’m being unreasonable?

    1. West Coast or Bust*

      I’ve had to complete tests for jobs before, but not since I was more inexperienced and didn’t have a good portfolio of work. (Portfolios are very important in my line of work.) That said, it’s not unusual to have it be part of the interview process. But any test should relate to the job you’d be doing and be relevant.

      I think you’d be justified in asking again about the purpose of the test, given that they’ve said it doesn’t relate the job duties (and given that you wouldn’t want the job if it involved tasks like the test.) You could say that you’re happy to complete a test like this on relevant topics, but not willing to spend hours on test questions that won’t relate to the work you’d be doing in the position. If they then say that, actually, the job does have this type of work involved so the test is relevant, then you can withdraw from consideration and explain that it’s not the type of you’re looking for, and wish them the best of luck.

  173. Alex*

    Not sure if it’s too late for anyone to reply, but I’m in a little bit of a quandary and would love some outside perspectives – where I work, promotions require you to apply for a specific position. Unless all your stars align and someone on your team is retiring at the same time you want to move into their role, that normally means shifting teams, so managers tend to band together and put up a notice once every few months with all the level 2 roles available.

    One of these rounds just happened, and I chucked my hat in the ring and expressed interest in two of the three open positions. One of them is on a really exciting team that’s doing some cool work right now, and I know that at least 4 of the 7 people applying went for that one, probably more. The other two… have less good reputations, but I thought the work in one could be interesting enough to potentially make up for the personnel issues they are known for. Well, upon interviewing, I’m less sure, and I’m a little worried that I may have been the only applicant for that team and therefore may be pressured to take the position if I’m offered it.

    Is there a polite way to turn down a promotion? And how much money is a bit of disfunction and dullness worth? I currently really like my job, I just wish it paid a bit more. I don’t think I’d give that up for a job I didn’t like that was only an extra $10-15,000.

    I don’t know, I really wish I could just get a promotion on my current team tbh, but three out of four of the level 2 roles there have been held by the same people for over 15 years, and the fourth only just got his. No chance of advancement without moving on :(

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