open thread – August 23-24, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

{ 2,011 comments… read them below }

  1. Sick of semi-trucks*

    My work is located in an industrial area. Therefore, there are semi-trucks driving up and down the street that I work on all day. However, my issue is that there are semis parked up and down both sides on the street all the time. It’s a narrow street, so this forces all cars going in both directions to drive right in the middle of the road (essentially straddling the yellow dotted line), and hope no one is coming from the other direction (it’s hard to see around the semis to see if another car is coming towards you). Many times, I’ve had to reverse back down the street to allow for another car to get through. I’ve also witnessed other cars doing the same thing. Also to note, when semis are driving down the street, they can barely even squeeze by the semis parked up and down the streets. I’ve witnessed semis in motion coming so close to hitting parked semis many times.

    I’m constantly concerned that I’m going to get in an accident because of this when I’m going to and from work. In fact, I know of several accidents that have occurred in the four years I’ve worked here, presumably because of the semi parking on the streets causing so many blind spots for drivers. Are semitrucks legally allowed to park on both sides of a business street? We hold a yearly trade show at our office, and our customers always comment on how dangerous our street is.

    Is there anything I can do about this, or am I just out of luck?

    1. Toodie*

      Could you ask your local law enforcement to stop by and see what’s happening? Surely they’d also want to minimize the likelihood of accidents.

    2. blink14*

      Has anyone reported this to the town or city? Parking laws can really vary from place to place, but it sounds like there is no signage on the street about parking, which leads me to think yes technically it is legal.

      I would make some calls to report this and stress the safety concerns. It may be that because it is an industrial area, this hasn’t been a problem in the past, but with increasing use of industrial zones for office space, it would make sense for the city to take a look.

      1. epi*

        This is how I would go. Just because it apparently is legal, doesn’t mean that it should be. It sounds like the parking regulations in that area need to change. How to change it depends on both who has jurisdiction over the road, and who is most responsive to you in your local government. For example, even if it is a county road, if you have a great city council person, you could try to get them to take it up since it is affecting their constituents.

        This is also the kind of thing that could get changed more quickly in response to an accident or near accident. Each time you know of one in the area, call again.

      2. pancakes*

        Agree, and that’s a good point about increasing use of industrial zones for office space. Contact city hall or the local equivalent.

    3. RavenclawShorts*

      I would suggest contacting the local sheriff or any law enforcement. It is impeding the roadway and they can be ticketed.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      You’d have to go to the local government department that is responsible for parking and talk to them.

    5. Fae*

      You would need to talk to whoever handles parking enforcement in the city where your office is located. Sometimes that’s the police sometimes it’s a separate division. The legality of parking on both sides of the stree (semi or not) is really going to depend on local laws and the particular street. I know where I live, some streets you can park on both sides, some it’s restricted to one side and some have no parking allowed or parking allowed only during certain times. Even if it’s legal now, you can petition for the parking regulations for that street be changed.

    6. DivineMissL*

      Are they legally allowed to park on both sides? Apparently so, since they are doing it. Contact the police department and tell them that you have concerns for the safety of the motorists who use the street. They should be able to send a traffic officer (trained to evaluate traffic patterns and risks) to review the situation; if they determine that it’s very dangerous and the local ordinance needs to change to, say, only permit parking on one side of the street, they can then make a recommendation to the elected officials who then have the power to amend the law.

      This may take a little while (evaluation, report, response, introducing/adopting a new ordinance, changing signs, enforcement, etc.) but you have to start somewhere. Also, if it’s a state or county road, they will have to consult with that entity as well. Make sure you emphasize the safety risks to motorists (and pedestrians or cyclists, too, if that applies). Good luck!

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would check with your parking enforcement but as someone who has had this set up for years now, most likely there’s nothing that is being done wrong, or they’d have cleared it out years ago.

      This happens in residential streets as well as the industrial streets here, it’s something you just have to deal with.

    8. AVP*

      sigh, please let us know if you think of anything! There’s an area like this that starts on the next block over from where I live and it’s really scary, I see near-crashes every day.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Every city has different ordinances and they’re really relaxed in business zones.

        In cities with RV camper issues, the problem is they are exploiting the allowance for large vehicles being allowed in business zones, sine business zones are expecting tractor trailers for deliveries and pick-ups.

        Otherwise in a residential zone, they would be towed away within 3 days.

        The cities know all about these streets, they have parking enforcement that drives around every day and sees it. Some of it is that nobody files a complaint. I had to file a complaint of an RV on a residential street after being over it after a week of their parking enforcement turning a blind eye [I saw them pass the thing daily, multiple times]. Only then did they ticket it and have it removed.

        So yeah, always complain but if they don’t do anything about it, it’s because despite of the dangerous condition, it’s out of their hands.

    9. cat socks*

      I hope you’re able to get this resolved. In my residential neighborhood there are signs indicating that cars can only park on one side of the street. This sounds like a nightmare if emergency vehicles need to get through.

      1. Joie De Vivre*

        This might be the point to make when reporting the issue – that emergency vehicles can’t get through.
        If the traffic department doesn’t take any action, if you can find the local fire department & let them know – I imagine they’d be able to get the traffic department to put new parking rules into place.

        Good luck & let us know how it turns out.

    10. Kiwiii*

      I’m wondering if it can’t/shouldn’t be a conversation that you have with management, the semi-drivers, and/or the city. The parking situation isn’t’ safe, so they need to figure something else out, if even just that they can/should only have parking on one side of this road or that they need to designate an alternate space/lot for them.

    11. Tractor Trailer Office*

      FYI – the trucks are parking there because of a bunch of different reasons.
      – there is a national shortage of parking spaces and truck stops in the USA, obviously a shortage in your industrial park
      – drivers are mandated to use computer time tracking and when they run out of hours they have 20 minutes to find parking for their 10 hours of down time
      – deliveries and receiving facilities do not allow the trucks to stay on their property and send them on their way
      It stinks all around for all drivers automobile and tractor as well. If they were parking on our street it would be an issue too. OP you have my sympathies. Just wanted to give you the other side.
      Our own landlord has come into our office to complain about the trailers parked in our lot…they take up too much room…Yup, we are a trucking company. The trucks take up room in the parking lot. Good luck!

    12. Amethystmoon*

      I work for a company that has a large warehouse down the road. In the morning, it’s very busy because of the semis, so I go the back way in. It’s fine going that way in the afternoon, but the morning hours are drop-off time for the trucks. Is there another way into your building that is not advertised as much, but would take you out of the semi truck area?

    13. Ranon*

      I’d try the fire marshal as well. They tend to have opinions about being able to get their fire trucks around safely.

  2. dovahkiin*

    ooooh I’ve been waiting for this all week.

    This week a peer level colleague from another team sent me an unsolicited dick pic w/an unsolicited caption “You look tasty today”.

    I did not pass GO, replied that it was completely inappropriate and disgusting, and went straight to HR.

    HR’s response was that it IS NOT sexual harassment because it is not “tit for tat harassment.” WHAT?!. They said if it happens again, I can escalate it. I think it shouldn’t have happened even once. Is this some bullsh*t or what? What can I do?

    I work for a Fortune 500 company, so HR is theoretically, supposed to know what they’re doing.

    The dude is scared of me now – after I basically reamed him for sending that to me – and won’t make eye contact. (GOOD) But I shouldn’t have had to deal with that at all from a colleague!

    1. curious question*

      How is your relationship with your boss/ higher ups? Can you go to them since they aren’t doing anything? Bring HR’s response and let them know about inappropriate colleague.

      1. Pontoon Pirate*

        Indeed. Escalate this past whichever schmuck you first spoke with – do not let this go. Record your interactions regarding this insanity – send follow-up emails, create a record.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yeah, this sounds like the opening salvo of coworker stole my spicy lunch, where HR was like “How dare you poison my boopsie?!!!” and then when someone higher became aware it was like ALL THE NO’S.

        2. Owl*

          YES! Record every. Little. Thing. Make sure you have some record of the HR meeting!!

          If you dont yet, you could send an emial saying “Hi Bob, wanted to confirm I understood what happened at our meeting today. Richard’s actions were not harassment, because they were not tit for tat. Please reply if im misunderstanding.”

          HR seems so stupid in this case that they’d think this was too vague to get them on later. I hope this ends up in your fabulous wealth from the law suit they are begging you for.

          1. Lissajous*

            I would add “Your position is that Richard’s actions are not…” – that way you’re not implying that you agree, you’re just stating what you understand HR’s take to be.

      2. dovahkiin*

        My former awesome boss left the company a month ago, so I dotted line report to an overseas (male, kind of a jerk) VP until her replacement arrives.

        I have do have great relationships with other higher-ups in the office here tho. I’ll seek them out ASAP.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Please do. Talk to everyone you can find who might have the ear of a person in power until you get somebody who can tell your HR rep how very badly she is handling this. And tell us how it shakes out!

    2. Peaches*

      Wait, WHAT?! Was it just one person from HR that gave you this response? Surely not everyone in your HR department is okay with this.

      1. dovahkiin*

        It’s our HR site leader, so the top HR person for our office location. That’s why i was so surprised. She’s usually really awesome, smart, and has been in the industry for years.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Who is the actual head of HR for the entire company, not just your location? You need to escalate this to that person.

          1. pancakes*

            +1

            The idea that harassment has to be quid pro quo for the company to take action is arbitrary nonsense. Maybe the site leader is conflating which things she’s supposed to escalate vs. handle directly.

            1. Working Hypothesis*

              It’s more than arbitrary, it’s contrary to the company’s legal obligations. A company which will only protect its employees from demands that they exchange sexual favors for work privileges (which is what I assume they mean by “tit for tat harassment”) will find itself on the losing end of lawsuits pretty rapidly, because there are multiple other varieties of harassment which the company has a responsibility under law not to permit.

        2. M*

          I would bet this HR site leader has a relationship with (friendly or romantic) with this dick pic person or he is friends with a higher up. This is outrageous and I have never heard of this from a competent HR person unless they are friendly with the harasser or the harasser is friends with a top level staffer. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen so I would escalate to your companies head of HR. This person should be fired.

          1. JoJo*

            I’m GUESSING the HR person meant this is not quid-pro-quo workplace sexual harassment, which is promoting/demoting subordinates based on whether they provide sexual favors or not. (That does not mean this is appropriate or that it is not actionable by the employer.)

            1. Observer*

              You are probably right – but M is still correct. No competent HR person is unaware that hostile workplace is a thing. Nor that a company can act on inappropriate behavior that is legal.

              So SOMETHING is up.

            2. Faith*

              As a manager who has just completed my assigned harassment training this week, I can confirm that this is hot quid-pro-quo workplace sexual harassment because it does not involve a manager and a subordinate. However, this is most definitely hostile environment sexual harassment.

            3. HappySnoopy*

              Yeah, there are two types of sexual harrassment. HR is talking about one, when this is the a textbook case of other. Did they miss that day of training?

              I just…I can’t even…

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          She’s 100% wrong—it doesn’t have to be “tit for tat” (i.e. quid pro quo) harassment to be unlawful. She’s confusing the legal standards in a really unhelpful, and frankly irrelevant, way.

          Regardless of her legal errors, at a minimum she needs to ensure this dude is reprimanded. There’s no circumstance under which an unsolicited, non-consensual dick pic with a harassing comment is appropriate in the workplace. This is risk management 101, and it’s what a sophisticated company like a large Fortune 500 should know how to do (even if your HR site manager is really screwing the pooch on this).

          So I think you have a couple of options:
          1. Go back to HR and tell her that regardless of her understanding of quid-pro-quo harassment, someone needs to say something to your coworker to make it clear his behavior is not ok.
          2. If you hit a wall again with #1, escalate to your manager and to HR’s manager.
          3. If you hit a wall with #2, escalate to Legal. If I were counsel for your employer, I would be hired to hear that this is how HR responded.

          1. designbot*

            It also doesn’t need to be unlawful to be a really, really bad idea. It doesn’t need to be unlawful for HR to act on it.

          2. Holly*

            I can’t agree with this comment more. This HR rep is confusing the legal standard (and a misinterpretation of it, I might add ) with NOT LETTING YOUR OFFICE GET TO MEETING THAT LEGAL STANDARD BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING.

        4. Owl*

          This is absolutely shocking. This is the smellies HR poop I’ve ever smelled. Im shocked this woman is ever a functioning human.

        5. lnelson in Tysons*

          I am insulted by your HR person as an HR person. Seriously. Just because it might not be a quid pro quo does not mean that pecker pics are welcome.
          At they very least unusually there is some language in the handbook about not disturbing pornography on company property.
          Arm yourself with the handbook if there is language pertaining to this. Grab your (anti) sexual harassment statement. Every company is supposed to have one. go back to her and say “I have been placed in an uncomfortable position what are you going to do about it?” If this escalates and lawyers get involved they just love hearing how HR did nothing. Some comments could be open to interpretation. A pecker pic. Not so much

      2. irene adler*

        Yeah. I’d request that they show me where this “tit for tat harassment” policy is actually written.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Even if it is written somewhere, it is bullpucky. It does not need to be a pattern when it is this egregious.

        2. Kimmybear*

          I’m wondering if the HR person understands the meaning of “tit for tat”. If it’s unsolicited picture and comment and you’ve done nothing remotely questionable, then HR doesn’t know what they are doing.

          1. lemon*

            I think by “tit for tat” (what a terrible term), they mean quid pro quo– e.g. a manager who threatens to fire a subordinate who won’t go on a date with them. So, they’re correct that what the OP has experienced isn’t quid pro quo.

            But the other type of sexual harassment, as defined by the EEOC, is hostile work environment, wherein speech or behavior is creating a demeaning or intimidating environment. I think being sent an unsolicited wiener picture falls into that category. So, they’re terrible HR. They don’t get to decide what kinds of sexual harassment “count” as “real” harassment. That’s enraging.

            Document. Escalate to a higher up. Consult a lawyer.

            1. Holly*

              The HR rep might also be confusing the standard for a hostile work environment requiring “Severe or pervasive” conduct. May people think it is “severe AND pervasive” means that one incident is not enough. First of all, that is incorrect, second, even if it was, HR’s job is to nip it in the bud BEFORE IT GETS TO BE A HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT.

              1. Reba*

                Exactly, the idea is to prevent it from reaching that point! Not totally fail to act until something really really bad happens!

                Ugh ugh ugh dovahkiin, I’m so sorry this happened. You are handling it like a boss so far.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                Yeah, and if she doesn’t think it qualifies, I’d just show her the picture.
                “IS THIS SEVERE ENOUGH, KAREN?”

              3. Artemesia*

                Exactly — he winks at you suggestively and says ‘looking tasty today sugarpie’ and it is once — probably needs to be repeated to be harassment. One dick pick is sufficient. I’d be taking this to the corporate head of HR, the legal department and your own boss and boss’s boss if that doesn’t get you anywhere. This guy should be fired. Nothing subtle here or ‘well it used to be okay’ or ‘I was just being friendly and she misunderstood’. No one on the planet doesn’t know this is outrageous harassment. No one.

            2. Samwise*

              Tit for tat doesn’t have anything to do with ta-tas etc. Both tit and tat are old words meaning a hit or a touch, that is, giving back as good as you got.

              (Thank you for allowing me this pedantic tangent!)

      3. Pescadero*

        This is likely something that falls under the “Single Incident Exception” – particularly since they mentioned quid pro quo.

        “Unless the conduct is quite severe, a single incident or isolated incidents of offensive sexual conduct or remarks generally do not create an abusive environment.

        A “hostile environment” claim generally requires a showing of a pattern of offensive conduct.

        In contrast, in “quid pro quo” cases a single sexual advance may constitute harassment if it is linked to the granting or denial of employment benefits”

        1. designbot*

          She’s not suing anyone for hostile work environment, she’s making HR aware that someone in their office needs handling. The bar is lower.

          1. Pescadero*

            Absolutely the company CAN fire someone for this behavior, and should.

            …but it probably IS unactionable in terms of a sexual harassment suit/complaint.

        2. Observer*

          Not really relevant. What he did is harassment. It may not YET rise to the level of hostile workplace, but it is DEFINITELY the kind of behavior that is a clear problem if it happens on a regular basis. Which means that HR needs to act NOW. Because if it keeps happening, the company WILL be on the hook. Deservedly!

          1. gilthoniel*

            I disagree. it’s hostile. You need a pattern to show the line has been crossed when it’s minor stuff, as in almost but not quite normal.

            When it comes to unsolicited pornography, you really don’t need a pattern.

        3. AcademiaNut*

          I would thing that emailing someone a picture of your genitals definitely falls under the “single incident exception”. Any more severe and he’d need to physically assault the OP. The pattern of incidents is for things like off colour remarks where it needs to be persistent rather than a single case of foot in mouth, or a badly timed joke.

          Brushing off unsolicited dick picks as not sexual harassment could get your employer in trouble – that’s a very clear cut case of sexual harassment that they’ve deliberately ignored.

        4. Glory Hallelujah*

          I genuinely wonder if this is a single incident! I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he’s behaved in similar ways with other female colleagues; it’s been my experience in life that men who send dick pics usually have a history of sexual jokes, inappropriate flirting, etc etc.

    3. Watermelon M*

      *insert gif of Titus Andromedon clutching chest while staring at computer* oh my LORD. Your HR person is the worst?! And your coworker is SO gross. I am so sorry.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        LOL! I wish this site allowed gif’s because that one is one of my favorites and perfectly captures my expression when reading most of the letters published here.

    4. CM*

      You’re right and HR is wrong. There’s probably a more diplomatic response, but my advice is to show the message to all of your other coworkers and tell them what a gross, disgusting loser this guy is at every opportunity. Make it as uncomfortable for him as you possibly can.

      1. Secret Identity*

        I would think that showing coworkers a sexually explicit photo would then land the OP in trouble for sexual harassment. I may be wrong, but I – personally – would not be happy to be shown something like that no matter what the context. But, maybe I’m wrong.

        1. Quill*

          No need to *show* them but do absolutely go to his boss, HR (over bad HR’s head) and legal departments. Save this on both a personal and a work device. And feel free to tell other people he works with because my guess is that this isn’t the first.

        2. Lehigh*

          The HR person has already told her that the dick pic is A-Okay at work, so I’d think that she’d be able to rely on that. Making sure to have a paper trail, of course.

          I would prefer to know if one of my coworkers was behaving in this way. No, it’s not exciting to look at a strange dick but it’s not threatening like it is to receive it from the dick-owner.

          1. Lehigh*

            Although honestly, as the OP, I would just talk about it and only show it if someone wanted “proof.” I wouldn’t like email it out or ambush anyone with unexpected dick-pic. Although HR has said it’s okay, it’s still not.

          2. Grapey*

            A coworker going “look at what fergus just sent me” and springing a dick pic on someone is what makes it unsolicited. Doesn’t matter who it’s from.

      2. pleaset*

        Don’t show coworkers dick pictures. Really, don’t. Show HR or legal is they need proof, but don’t show those in general.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      An actual dick pic? Escalate to your manager and/or his manager and/or the HR persons supervisor. The HR responsecopens up the company to liability.

      1. blackcat*

        Yes. I would escalate to both your manager and his manager. You can say, “This happened, and I have reported it to HR. I wanted you both to be aware of the situation.”

        1. College Career Counselor*

          I would also include HR’s response (which is WRONG/AWFUL) and indicate that you want/need some assistance with addressing this outrageous situation. Just so they don’t think that “Oh, HR knows about it” and don’t take any further action.

          1. Quinalla*

            Wow, everyone had said what I needed to say, but ditto on escalating this and include HR’s response. So sorry you had to deal with that!

      2. Damien*

        As long as OP doing that won’t make the guy try to turn it into a revenge porn defence on his behalf…

    6. Utoh!*

      Can you escalate to someone higher up the food chain in HR? I would definitely press the issue because this type of behavior from *anyone* in your organization should not be tolerated at all and there should be consequences even for a first time offense. Glad you shut the asshat down but the company should have been behind you 100%.

    7. Joie De Vivre*

      Can you go to a different HR person? In a normal world, I would think that the picture & message would be grounds for termination.

        1. Glory Hallelujah*

          You would think, but I once had a manager send a racist & graphically pornographic memes to one of my coworker/one of her subordinates and the only thing that happened to her was that she was moved to another location.

          Sometimes Grandboss’s favorites just get to skate on through!

    8. Bee's Knees*

      Dear heavens, your HR people are out of their gourd. Since you work for a large company, you could call the corporate compliance line. Mention that HR was no help to you. That generally makes the lawyers feel some kind of way.

    9. Wearing Many Hats*

      um WHAT! That is so inappropriate! It may not be ‘harassment’ but it is inappropriate language for sure! Glad you put him in line, sorry you had to do so.

      1. Hope*

        An unsolicited dick pic from a coworker is DEFINITELY harassment. He might as well have flashed her in the office.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It’s definitely harassment. Whether it’s legally actionable is a separate issue, but it falls solidly in the sexual harassment bucket.

    10. Miss Fisher*

      What kind of Co-Worker would do that and not expect it to go badly? I wonder if he has done the same to others or will.

      Very odd HR didn’t do something because that is so far beyond any form of sexual harassment you would typically find in a workplace which obviously shouldn’t be.

        1. Quill*

          I don’t think they think they’ll get sex out of it, but it’s a thing they can do that upsets a woman (usually a woman, I mean) and that can be enough of a reason for some people.

        2. Grapey*

          same reasons flashers exist – wanting to feel in control of the emotions of women (e.g. shock).

        3. Autumnheart*

          For the same reason they flash people in person. They get a thrill out of forcing someone to share a sexual experience with them.

        4. Lissa*

          It’s the same kind of person who would make dirty phone calls before caller ID and the internet I think.

        5. Glory Hallelujah*

          I think it’s either a variation on the “shoot your shot” philosophy (eg “it might work, so it’s worth trying) or it’s a modern day social media spin on an exhibitionist paraphilic disorder along the lines of flashing.

          I will say, as a youngish, moderately attractive woman who has a very active twitter account focused on a particular hockey team, the sheer number of dick pics I get over the course of a season leads me to believe that whatever the root cause of it is, it’s a growing issue. I really wish that there were consequences for this kind of harassment outside of a work environment where HR *really* should be jumping all over it.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Someone who’s done it before (or something similar) to someone else, and got away with it.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Men who heard it worked for this one guy’s cousin’s roommate’s friend.

        (This is the sort of thing where at spouse’s work, the lovely HR person who works at a different site would be getting a room at the extended stay suite hotel to scrub everything this guy has touched while wearing a company hat with the legal version of bleach.)

    11. Foreign Octopus*

      Go to your manager, go to his manager, go to anyone with more authority that your inept HR department.

      It’s good that he’s scared of you now, but this is so far removed from appropriate that he needs to feel professional repercussions so that he never, ever does it again. Also, find a way to file a complaint with the HR person you spoke to. There’s no excuse for not knowing that this is harassment in this day and age.

      I’m going to include a link below that I hope will provide you, and everyone, with a laugh because it’s absolutely poetry on unsolicited dick pics.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I saw that in a post of tumblr posts and in the comments, people were saying how the OP was humble-bragging about her accomplishments.

          Found the dick pic senders.

    12. Parenthetically*

      WHOA WTF

      Go to your boss, grandboss, head of HR, etc. Escalate escalate escalate. I’d even say lawyer up. Dick pics are practically the definition of sexual harassment and HR brushing it off is SPECTACULARLY stupid.

      1. FirstTimer*

        I would (personally, not saying this is a good idea or that I would actually do it) consider letting the office gossip find out about the picture somehow, then everyone in the office will find out what a creep this guy is and his professional reputation will be seriously dented.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Only if the office gossip can include the bit about how dovahkiin tried to get HR to address it, but they wouldn’t.

          But again, this is probably terrible advice and I don’t recommend actually following it. :)

        2. pancakes*

          That would be a good way for any other creeps in the office to learn that their employer is unusually and wretchedly permissive about sexual harassment, and for the employer to convey to everyone that there won’t be any consequences besides entirely optional social opprobrium at the individual level. I think it makes much more sense to escalate this to more senior HR.

    13. Not really a waitress*

      Has any woman in the history of time looked at an unsolicitated dick pick and squealed “ OMG I HAVE TO HAVE IT. ITS SO CUTE”. It’s not like it’s a pair of shoes.

      According to the EEOC sexual harassment includes unwanted sexual advances. Your HR person needs to be schooled.

        1. Goldfinch*

          Just reply back with whichever unsolicited dick pic you last received prior to that one. It’s a daisy chain! Dick pics all the way down!

        2. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          “What am I looking at here, it’s too small to see properly.”
          (I was flashed in the street when I was 14. I was more bewildered than shocked or scared – it was February, there was nothing of mention to look at)

          1. facepalm*

            I saw an amazing response once–a woman wrote back “OMG did you just send me a photo of a child’s p3nis??? I’m going to contact law enforcement and report you for child p0rnography!!”

        3. Glory Hallelujah*

          My standard reply is “Your mother would be deeply ashamed of your behavior right now” followed by a block

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        You know what porn aimed at women doesn’t feature? Dick pics.

        Porn aimed at men of all orientations, on the other hand…

        1. Grapey*

          The ‘popular with women’ category on pornhub thankfully DOES have plenty of that. It’s also solicited, and nothing to do with OP’s problem.

      2. Zennish*

        I’m appalled and sad that this is apparently a common enough thing that people have standard responses for it. I feel the need to apologize for the behavior (and possibly existence) of a large portion of my gender.

    14. No Tribble At All*

      This is bullsh*t of the smelliest caliber. That’s so obviously sexual harassment. Someone needs to Shout at your HR. And your colleague.

    15. Natalie*

      This might be a good time to use the phrase “hostile work environment” (hurray, a situation where that actually applies!) because that’s the type of sexual harassment this is. And it’s just as illegal as “quid pro quo” harassment, which is what I assume your HR department was referring to.

        1. gilthoniel*

          Which includes: “The employer will be liable for harassment by non-supervisory employees or non-employees over whom it has control (e.g., independent contractors or customers on the premises), if it knew, or should have known about the harassment and failed to take prompt and appropriate corrective action.”

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Hell, I’d be tempted to let HR know that they should expect to hear from the FBI Cyber Crime unit about the investigation into transmitting unwanted pornographic material over the Internet (especially if these were work phones or email, but either way…), and possibly from the local police’s sex crimes unit.

      2. Observer*

        Well, quid pro quo harassment is not the same as tit for tat, so it’s clear that HR person has no clue what she’s talking about. Either that, or she’s trying to find a way to protect the guy.

        OP, is the guy who sent you the message related to someone?

        1. Natalie*

          Quid pro quo (“something for something” in Latin)[2] is a Latin phrase used in English to mean an exchange of goods or services, in which one transfer is contingent upon the other; “a favour for a favour”. Phrases with similar meanings include: “give and take”, “tit for tat”, and “you scratch my back, and I’ll scratch yours” and “one hand washes the other”.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quid_pro_quo

          1. Observer*

            Wikipedia is not a really useful guide for making HR decisions. Sure, in a general sense the terms are similar, but in this kind of context they are significantly different.

            Even in a more general usage “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” is far closer to the general sense of the phrase than “tit for tat” which has a much more retaliatory sense.

            1. pleaset*

              Yup. In the US, in general (not talking about HR), tit for tat is usually (not always) about a negative thing done in response to another negative thing, while quid pro quo is usually (not always) about positives. So they’re a little different, though the meaning can overlap.

              1. Triplestep*

                Exactly. “Tit for Tat” in this case would be if they were both sending each other unsolicited racy photos, which makes even less sense than HR’s lack of action here.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I’m with Natalie on this. It sounds like HR is confusing “tit for tat” with “quid pro quo.” Regardless, HR has the law on this issue completely wrong, and their advice is not just bad management, it opens the company up to liability.

          1. Observer*

            I’m sure that you are right and they are confusing the two. Which is total stupidity.

            And, of course, you are also totally correct that it’s illegal anyway.

    16. almost empty nester*

      Dear Lord I sincerely hope the HR person was just having a really really bad day, because she gave you a really really bad response. Engage her manager and your manager, and keep pressing the issue. Also like the suggestion of making sure everyone in his and your orbit knows what he did. Just shaking my head!!!

    17. Fortitude Jones*

      What the hell?! I’m horrified at the audacity of your coworker (seriously – who sends dick pics to coworkers a) on company time, b) on company equipment, and c) at all?!) and especially horrified that your company said this isn’t harassment – this is a straight up firing offense. Did you speak to the head of HR, or was it one of the lower level reps? I’ve noticed that at a lot of companies, the latter are usually generalists and don’t have much training in these matters. If it was the head of HR who said this, you need to go to your company’s legal department with this to tell them that HR is hand-waving a situation with another employee that could open them up to a lawsuit. Your coworker should be dealt with then. If that still doesn’t lead to results, start looking for a new job because this place is dysfunctional as hell to let something like this happen with no repercussions.

      1. pleaset*

        Not excusing him, but their is a tiny chance that he meant to send this to someone else he’s in a relationship with. Still bad, but not horrendous.

        1. Mayor of Llamatown*

          If that’s the case then he should absolutely have apologized with all mortification the minute he realized what happened. And HR should be the one to work it out.

          I know if I sent pictures like that to a coworker by accident I wouldn’t just avoid eye contact. An abject apology is needed, at minimum.

          1. Kat in VA*

            I have a friend whose first name is the same as my husband’s. One day I was feeling saucy and sent a couple of spicy texts to my husband while on the way to the gym.

            To my husband? Oops. Not my husband.

            Friend handled it in good grace and husband thought it was hilarious, but now friend’s name in my phone is Mr. SameFirstName DifferentLastName and my husband is SameFirstName *red heart emoji* MyLastName so that never, ever happens again.

            See also: screenshotting some crazy comment my boss made and then immediately sending him the screenshot when I meant to send it to my group chat with the caption, “Get a load of THIS.” /facepalm

      1. Jadelyn*

        “Quid pro quo”/tit for tat harassment is one of the two types of sexual harassment, the other being hostile work environment. Quid pro quo is expecting or demanding sexual favors in return for something given at work, like a promotion or a raise, or to prevent something negative like a demotion or being fired.

        1. Observer*

          Except that tit for tat is NOT the same as quid pro quo.

          Any HR person who doesn’t know the difference should not be in that position.

            1. Observer*

              Tit for tat would be retaliation. Quid pro Quo is “you do this and I’ll do that in return.” Which in the context of harassment would be “you sleep with me / accept my advances and I’ll not fire you / I’ll promote you.”

              1. lemon*

                Hmm. Thanks for the explanation. I might be splitting hairs, but isn’t retaliation implied in quid pro quo harassment? Like, “sleep with me and I won’t fire you” implies that if you don’t sleep with that person, they *will* fire you.. thus, retaliation.

            2. fposte*

              “Tit for tat,” colloquially, means essentially “You gave as good as you got”–if you smacked your sister and she smacks you right back, that’s tit for tat. It doesn’t have any particular legal connection to harassment, but I’ve heard people confuse it for quid pro quo in other circumstances. Quid pro quo could be translated as “this for that,” which makes confusion with “tit for tat” likelier, but quid pro quo is about conscious contingency–“I do this so you do that,” or, in sexual harassment terms, “You do this for me so I do something for you.” Tit for tat is just about the equal exchange, originally of blows/injuries.

              1. lemon*

                Thanks. I’m familiar with “tit for tat” in terms of game theory (so, the equal exchange you mention). But just wasn’t aware if it had a legal connection to harassment. I assumed that this particular HR person was using it to mean quid pro quo, but other commenters seem to think that it’s different than quid pro quo, so wanted some clarity on this third meaning of the term folks are working with here.

                1. fposte*

                  And to me the game theory usage (which dominates the wikipedia entry) seems to depend on a different meaning as well–it’s a mutual benefit thing, not a mutual injury thing.

                  I don’t think “tit for tat” does have a legal connection to harassment; it’s just that people misunderstand the “this for that” of quid pro quo as just a variant spelling/pronunciation. So some commenters were drawing on that overlap, while some were thinking about what it could possibly mean.

                2. Observer*

                  The thing here is that the HR person probably was using it instead of Quid pro quo, but it’s not correct. At least outside of game theory, which is not exactly the thing people think about in normal conversation :)

            3. Emi.*

              “Tit for tat” usually means negative retaliation, I think. You tell the boss that I was late, and next time you’re late I narc on you too so you don’t do it again.

          1. Jadelyn*

            …that is literally how SHRM defines it, I’m practically quoting their definitions, so take it up with them.

            “Quid pro quo means “this for that.” In this context, it involves expressed or implied demands for sexual favors in exchange for some benefit (e.g., a promotion, pay increase) or to avoid some detriment (e.g., termination, demotion) in the workplace. Quid pro quo harassment is perpetrated by someone who is in a position of power or authority over another (e.g., manager or supervisor over a subordinate). A clear example of quid pro quo harassment would be a supervisor threatening to fire an employee if he or she does not have sex with the supervisor.”

            1. Observer*

              Except that none of this is tit for tat – this for that is NOT the same thing at all.

              fposte made the point a lot better that I’ve been doing

            2. fposte*

              Unfortunately, despite the very similar sound, “tit for tat” doesn’t mean the same thing as “this for that.” They’re not etymologically related.

      2. Natalie*

        Presumably “quid pro quo”, as in “sleep with me or I’ll fire you”. It’s one of the two legal conceptions of sexual harassment in the US.

    18. Jadelyn*

      My jaw literally dropped. As an HR professional, I would very much like to come slap the idiot who told you it’s not harassment because it’s not “tit for tat”. That’s ONE KIND of harassment, the other being HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT, and if sending a dick pic to a coworker with that kind of gross caption doesn’t count as creating a hostile work environment I don’t know what would.

      My guess is they’re thinking about hostile environment typically being defined as a pattern of incidents, but a single *severe* incident would also meet the definition. And any HR in their right mind would want to nip this shit in the bud BEFORE it turns into a full-blown pattern – especially considering they could theoretically be held liable for failing to intervene if it escalates.

      Who in HR did you talk to? I would suggest taking this up the chain to both your own manager and whoever is above the HR person you spoke to. Ask them, “So, are we saying that in order to work here, women have to be comfortable receiving unwanted and unsolicited pictures of their coworkers’ genitalia, as long as it only happens once?”

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s true, one act of inappropriate behavior isn’t usually harassment. So if someone tells one inappropriate joke, yeah that’s the tit for tat sort of thing they should be meaning.

      However this is so egregious, since it’s unlawful on another level to subject someone to your private parts like that, it’s something that should have your HR scurrying to at very least re-train this awful man.

      Go back to HR and talk to someone else. I would also run it up the “maybe in this case we should speak to the legal department since this seems like it’s above and beyond.” He needs to be scared for his job to be honest.

      This needs to be recorded so the NEXT TIME he does this to another colleague, she’s protected because it’s now a pattern that HR so desperately desires.

      1. Jadelyn*

        What kills me about this is that OP’s HR is acting like HR is bound to ONLY act on things that are legally prohibited. That just because it doesn’t rise to the level of legally-actionable sexual harassment (and tbh I’d argue that a single incident, when it’s that egregious, would still qualify, since the EEOC definition for hostile work environment conduct is “frequent OR severe” – it doesn’t have to be both), their hands are tied. We’ve got the ability to speak up before it gets to that point (at most places, anyway, and the ones where HR can’t do that are a whole other kettle of horrifyingly dysfunctional fish). To act like that’s not the case is, to me, professional negligence on the part of that HR person (not to mention just laziness).

        1. lnelson in Tysons*

          I really would like to ask the OP’s HR person “how dick pics does he have to send me before it’s considered harassment or a hostile work environment?”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Because the proper term is Quid Pro Quo and tit for tat is a mangled weird way to put it, so naturally yeah, it’s confusing.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I think the HR person is confused about what tit for tat means. But do we really need to derail on language interpretation when we all understand that what happened is not ok and that the HR person is wrong?

          1. Jadelyn*

            Well, you’d like to think we wouldn’t need to, and I certainly wasn’t expecting to be nit-picked for responding to what the HR person in question clearly *meant* rather than correcting the wording used, but here we are.

            1. Observer*

              Oh, I’m sure you are correct about what the HR person thought. But she’s totally wrong – which is just another aspect of her stupid and incompetent response.

              1. pancakes*

                Observer, arguable misuse of a widely misunderstood phrase doesn’t rise to the level of “stupid and incompetent.” People who are neither stupid or incompetent do not become so when they make an error of this nature, and courts ruling on sexual harassment claims wouldn’t attach nearly this much significance to bungled phrasing.

                Your insistence on this point inspired me to do a bit of poking around, and as I suspected, Black’s Law has an entry for quid pro quo but nothing for tit-for-tat because the latter is not a legal term of art. I also had a quick look at Google Scholar, and found appellate courts using the two interchangeably. If you want an example, have a look at footnote 2 in Garcia v. Schwab, 967 S.W.2d 883 (1998) (“Quid pro quo harassment involves those situations in which a tit-for-tat condition is imposed; that is, sexual favor is made a condition of employment, advancement, or special favor associated with employment”).

                1. Observer*

                  The HR person is stupid and incompetent for claiming that the company can’t take action. The fact that she misused a term (and it’s not as widely misunderstood as you claim) is just an aspect of the problem, but it really is the least problematic aspect.

                  The fact that she seems to think that only quid pro quo is a problem and hostile workplace is the biggest problem – and frankly a firing offense for a supposed HR professional in my opinion. The fact that she seems to think that only legally actionable harassment is a problem is almost as bad. And those are the things that I’d for sure be focusing on.

                2. pancakes*

                  Even within these comments, among what is likely a group of people with a disproportionately high number of advanced degrees vs. average, there’s a lot of confusion and disagreement! Neither phrase is in common usage outside of HR training, or law offices that specialize in sexual harassment. I’ve seen several anti-sexual harassment training videos over the years in various workplaces—multinational law offices, and agencies that arrange contract attorney services for them—and the focus is on behavior, not terminology.

                  Yes, this HR person seems incompetent and at best, eyebrow-raisingly misinformed. I said more or less that in another comment above, and could’ve clarified I wasn’t addressing that here, just responding to your focus on the difference between those phrases, and your insistence that it’s widely understood. For me that was perfectly clear in context, but I can see how it might not be for others.

          2. Baru Cormorant*

            Honestly don’t know why people are bothering with this, as they’re two sides of the same coin. If you turn down a quid pro quo offer it will turn into tit for tat… it’s basically “do this or else.”

            I don’t see why we need to draw a bright line between whether the harassment is intended to be the carrot or the stick, when the issue is using sexual advances to motivate someone’s behavior.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I don’t think Becky is saying otherwise. They’re saying that usually one act of harassment is insufficient to be legally actionable unless it’s egregious. That’s an accurate description of the law.

      2. justcourt*

        “So if someone tells one inappropriate joke, yeah that’s the tit for tat sort of thing they should be meaning.”

        That’s not what tit-for-tat/quid pro quo means. Tit-for-tat in a sexual harassment context occurs when someone offers a work benefit in exchange for sexual favors or threatens work retaliation if sexual favors are not performed.

        What you’re thinking of is hostile work environment. Harassment does not need to be ongoing to create a hostile work environment, though in many isolated instances don’t create a hostile work environment. A hostile work environment is created when the offensive conduct creates an environment that is intimidating or hostile to reasonable people.

    20. Quill*

      You would think that this would be the EASIEST case of sexual harassment to prove given that there’s an electronic paper trail…

    21. DaniCalifornia*

      WOW! Echoing the other’s sentiments of going above and beyond HR, including bosses, shared managers, etc. This is not right and should not be ignored. HR is wrong wrong wrong!

      1. kittymommy*

        I’m assuming that the HR person is meaning that the harassment needs to be of the “if you have sex with me I’ll get you something at work that you want (promotion/raise/whatever)” or “have sex with me or I’ll screw your career up here”.

        1. Clisby*

          This is confusing, though, because “tit for tat” and “quid pro quo” mean 2 very different things.

          Tit for tat means: You harassed me, so I harassed you back.

          Quid pro quo means: If you do X for me, I’ll do Y for you. (Specifically, in employment, something like “if you have sex with me, I’ll give you a raise.”

          1. Natalie*

            I really don’t think that’s a common usage for “tit for tat” harassment. Obviously google results aren’t definitive but they do tend to give a good sense of how people use phrases, and your definition doesn’t seem to show up at all.

            1. Observer*

              Actually, that IS the way most people use those phrases. This is a perfect example of why Google needs to be used with great care.

            2. fposte*

              But I can’t even find “tit for tat” harassment as a thing people say at all. So I think that Clisby’s interpretation is where my brain would first have gone with that phrase–that it’s trying to talk about times when the dick pic was in response to a sext/nude/something. However, I think in reality it’s just somebody who’s confused tit for tat with quid pro quo and has a very poor grasp on harassment generally.

            3. Akcipitrokulo*

              tit for tat is retaliation.

              Sometimes used to excuse bullying in school… oh it was tit for tat – he hit him, he punched back…

          2. Akcipitrokulo*

            quid pro quo would be “I’ll give you (raise, bonus, juicy project) if you do this sexual act for me”.

            Tit for Tat would be “you turned me down! Fergus is going to hawaii instead of you and your next review will be bad…”

            But tbh I first thought it was his defense was “well, she started it”

            1. TechWorker*

              Is that an HR definition? Because in general usage (as said above) ‘tit for tat’ implies equal fault or at least equal impact of an action. Turning someone down is not the same impact as them giving you a bad review.

          3. Gaia*

            I think HR and people here are using a more colloquial definition intended to align with quid pro quo. Either way, this is ABSOLUTELY hostile environment harassment.

            1. Observer*

              100%

              The issue with the language is not THE problem – THE problem is that this is totally and completely wrong no matter what type of harassment it is, and HR person is acting in an utterly incompetent manner by not recognizing it. Using the wrong term is merely the icing on the cake of her gross incompetence.

    22. FirstTimer*

      Does this HR person possibly have a personal connection that you aren’t aware of to the dick pic sender? That is a really bizarre reaction to this kind of thing these days, particularly coming from another woman. But I’m glad he’s scared of you now, he should be.

    23. WhoKnows*

      This HR person is clearly confused between sexual harassment and retaliation – also, they should not be an HR person.

      This is absurd – go straight to your boss, or their boss, or whoever is going to make this right. This guy needs to be gone, immediately.

    24. deesse877*

      There are TWO kinds of actionable sexual harassment–quid pro quo, or an implied or explicit sexual bargain, which might be what this person means by “tit for tat,” and “hostile environment,” which means something so outrageous (either one incident, or a pattern) that it makes it impossible to work normally. Most people think an unwanted graphic image falls under the latter category. My guess is this person is either so ignorant that they don’t know about hostile environment (which is unlikely), or so desensitized that they think dick pics are normal, not outrageous….a viewpoint which is sadly common. I agree that you should escalate, and soon; if you let it lie someone is going to start saying you “wanted” or “invited” or “deserved” this @$=#, soon.

    25. Observer*

      Please get that response in writing – someone needs training BADLY! What kind of idiot says that someone is not harassment because it’s not tit for tat? Even an organization that doesn’t take harassment seriously would understand that this is stupidity.

      And, yes, I agree with everyone who said to escalate this.

    26. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Look up your corporate policy. My Fortune 100 company has it published on the website and has online-training programs to recognize sexual harassment. This is forbidden behavior. I suspect by his reaction he knows better than HR what he did.

      1. Snow globe*

        My Fortune 500 company also has an anti-harassment policy, which includes clear instructions on how to report harassment. There may well be an HR specialist that focuses exclusively on harassment type of issues. I’d look through the employee handbook and see if you can’t find something there.

        I believe Evil HR Lady recommends sending an email to HR with the words “Formal report of sexual harassment” in the subject line.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Bingo. A well-written harassment policy includes a section on using email/computer/electronics to send graphic material. This should not be a big dig to find this one, OP. Please look. You will probably find it and you can read it to her or email the section to her. You are looking for something that says, “Thou shalt not send graphic material in digital form to anyone, ever.”
        She is oh-so-wrong and could cause the company to have lawsuits if she does not get up to speed, quickly. Like YESTERDAY.

        I hope you come back here and let us know how you are doing.

      3. LJay*

        This.

        We’re not a large company, but my current company and every other company I have ever worked for have had sexual harassment policies in our handbook.

        Also, if you have a corporate employee hotline (which every publicly traded company I work for has had) I would call or email that as well and include both the initial issue and the fact that HR said that it wasn’t sexual harassment. The second part, from my understanding, was the type of thing that the hotline existed for at some of my previous jobs.

    27. ZuZu*

      This is ABSOLUTELY SEXUAL HARASSMENT.
      I am so angry on your behalf. Go to the highest high up HR person in your company. Your coworker needs to be fired and your HR person needs some severe yelling and coaching session, at a minimum.
      Please update us.

    28. kittymommy*

      I’m also wondering of you might want to speak with your legal department (assuming you have one), even if it would need to be broached in a way where you want clarification on what HR said (ex. “I received this unsolicited picture and text and HR said it was not harassment – would you be able to confirm that for me as I was under the impression it was??”)

    29. CML*

      I work in HR. I’m so sorry this is the response you received. This is the kind of crap that gives HR a bad name. I hope you have a management chain that can help you with this. Law enforcement is maybe not a path to pursue but if this keeps up, it may be something to consider.

    30. Carrotstick21*

      Hi – senior HR person here. It sounds like your HR person gave a mealy-mouthed response on the minutiae of a harassment definition and concluded, wrongly, that therefore no action could be taken. That’s just not the case. It’s unsolicited sexual content in a professional environment and shows a shocking lack of judgment from an employee. It can and must be addressed by HR, and if HR will not, go to whoever HR works for.

    31. Lilysparrow*

      Look, nobody goes from total solid decent guy to dick pics at work in one move.

      He’s done this before, he’s doing it to other people now, and he’s going to do it to more people in the future. He may not have tried it with a peer before, so the other targets of his grossness may well be too nervous to say anything. Or they went to your useless excuse of an HR person and got shot down.

      Escalate, escalate, escalate. Once the dam breaks, there will be more.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Ever so true. There are also EEO offices independent of your company. You can file a complaint with your city state or fed office. Goodbye Dick Pick Boy. And Goodbye Utterly Useless HR Person, Please Find Another Field to Play In.

    32. Jemima Bond*

      Just popping in to yell “JESUS H CHRIST ON A BENDY BUS, WHAT THE ACTUAL F?!?” and run around flailing my arms in horror.
      No, no and thrice no.

        1. fposte*

          Those articulated double-length buses with the accordion folds in the middle. Unless Jesus is on something extra special.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            It’s so very rural here. Every so often I get reminded of that, like right now.
            Thanks, fposte.

          2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Maybe it’s the bus ride round the bend? :)

            In the city I used to live in, a neighbor and I at different times had to ride the Bus Line Through Hell. Thank God, Lucifer, and the transit system our stop wasn’t in the hell zone.

      1. FirstTimer*

        “JESUS H CHRIST ON A BENDY BUS, WHAT THE ACTUAL F?!?” is brilliant and I’m going to start using it.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’ve been putting Christ on various vehicles lately, but this one I forgot about hahaha.

    33. Veryanon*

      Wait, what the actual f? I work in HR, and there’s no way on this green earth that I’d let that slide. Whoever you spoke with in HR is…less than competent. Sheesh.

    34. Akcipitrokulo*

      wtaf?!??!

      No.

      Escalate it now. To higher up HR. To legal. To big bosses.

      If you are in a union, call them now.

      Also worth considering reporting to police.

    35. AnonymEsq.*

      If your company has one, report it the incident and HR’s response to the Whistleblower hotline. HR’s response is almost just as bad as the initial incident.

    36. Boop*

      Is it possible they are thinking this does not meet the definition of a “hostile work environment”? A single incident often doesn’t meet that threshold since it has to be pervasive and offensive. However, it was still outrageously inappropriate and seems to fall under the EEOC definition of sexual harassment (https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm), and it certainly appears to be an unwelcome sexual advance.

      I’d try to find someone else in HR (possibly higher up) or a manager you can trust to report this to. Regardless of whether it constitutes a hostile work environment, I think it would be astonishing for any employer to think this type of behavior was acceptable in the work place.

      If pointing out the inappropriateness and possible illegality of the action doesn’t work, try asking why they wouldn’t consider the use of (probably) company resources and company time for this type of activity to be at least worthy of discipline.

    37. Aquawoman*

      I think she is confused because the 2 most common types are the quid pro quo, which this is not, and hostile work environment which CAN be caused by pervasive behavior but (1) can also be caused by one incident if it’s severe enough (such as sending a DICK PIC to a co-worker, FFS) and even if not, it becomes pervasive because management knew about it and didn’t do anything. They are actually setting themselves up for a claim. I think legal would want to know about this, though I’d talk to the other people you mentioned first.

    38. carrie heffernan*

      please send us an update and hopefully that update is that Skeezy McDickPic has been fired.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I wouldn’t mind seeing the HR person fired as well. This is basic level “not ok ever” stuff and I’d have a hard time trusting someone in HR that mishandled it this badly. That guy should have been fired the day OP reported it.

          1. carrie heffernan*

            yes I should have added that in – the HR person needs to absolutely go an never work in HR again

    39. ...*

      Continue to professionally escalate as high as you have to go. Personally, this is a HILL I WOULD DIE ON, and after escalating multiple times nothing was done, I would go straight to social media and blast them.

    40. Owl*

      Not… tit for tat????? So what HR is saying is, you need to send him back a pic of your privates, and THEN its harassment??

      I have never felt more angry-confused.

      1. Owl*

        unless anyone else was going to look this up:

        tit for tat noun phrase
        \ ˌtit-fər-ˈtat \
        Definition of tit for tat
        : an equivalent given in return (as for an injury) : retaliation in kind

        1. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

          So basicly an eye for an eye? You poke out my eye, and I retaliate by poking your eye out?

    41. Reluctant HR Perspective*

      Ugh, first of all, that sounds horrible. I’m sorry.

      Depending on the state you’re in, this is not TECHNICALLY sexual harassment. Sexual harassment refers to a series of pervasive behaviors that continue after the target indicates that they are not interested. Alternatively, it is quid pro quo (“this for that”), wherein job benefits are exchanged for sexual acts. A one-time incident does not meet the legal definition of sexual harassment in most states unless the incident is egregious. While I would argue that seeing someone’s dick in your inbox is pretty egregious, unfortunately, most courts will not see it that way. This is typically used in cases of assault or rape.

      HOWEVER

      This is still wildly inappropriate behavior in the workplace and should absolutely be addressed by Human Resources. I would comb your handbook or policy library for written company policies referring to respect, professionalism in the workplace, and other statements on ethics. Take this back to your HR team and state your case for how his behavior violates company policy.

      Also, as others have already suggested, save any correspondences with him and create a timeline. If any similar behavior occurs OR if you suffer retaliation from HR or your superiors for reporting the incident, this could escalate to the level of illegal sexual harassment.

      Hope this helps. Best of luck.

      1. Observer*

        Your first paragraph is not necessarily correct. Harassment does not have to be multiple acts. And it does not always require being warned in advance. Now, not all harassment rises to the level of legally raising a winning lawsuit is a different question. But, just as no one needs to be told that it’s not ok to grope someone for groping to be considered harassment, no one needs to be told not to send these pictures for them to be considered harassment.

        Which means that HR really DOES have a legal obligation to deal with this. Because even if this one situation does not rise to the level of legal liability, if this guy develops a pattern of this behavior, they WILL be liable. And given that they have been warned about it, they will DEFINITELY not have the defense that they did not know about it or that people did not report it – They know that he’s done it once but they have demonstrated that they won’t do anything about it.

        1. Baru Cormorant*

          Yeah I’m confused… even if this is not lawsuit-winnable, surely HR would be motivated to shut down anything this close. It’s a textbook HR101 sexual harassment situation.

      2. Observer*

        Also, if anyone retaliates because she complained, it no longer matters of this is illegal harassment – it becomes retaliation which is an issue on its own regardless of the legal merits of the original complaint.

    42. Donna*

      I honestly would have said I thought things like this didn’t actually happen, except that a female colleague told me several years ago that while talking to the IT person for our building, she looked over his shoulder and saw that the window open on the desktop behind him was a picture of essential a porn shot that someone (a friend?) must have sent him (she has seen similar things in the past on his pc). THE IT GUY. And I didn’t work for a crappy place…it was an accredited business school at a high-ranking technology institute.

      1. Owl*

        THis makes some twisted sense to me. Everyone knows IT can catch you on this stuff so it’s a no no. But if YOURE IT…

    43. Anon Librarian*

      But this isn’t just sexual harassment. I believe it’s illegal – in most places – to send someone an unsolicited picture of your private parts outside of an understandable context for that (relationship or maybe if they were your doctor). I would look into what other laws apply, not just workplace laws. Reporting this to the police is an option. You could show them the email from HR too; that person is being complicit. You could also find a lawyer to advise you.

      If it were me, I would not communicate with the company about this anymore unless I had reason to believe that I’d get a better response from someone else. I would just go to the police or find a lawyer or something along those lines. I’d let them advise me about how to handle it at work.

      Whatever you do, PLEASE keep a safe distance from Sender and HR Person. Those people sound sketchy. Just disengage and pursue legal ways to hold them accountable.

      1. Koala dreams*

        It would be illegal where I live too, and I agree with the suggestion to find a lawyer.

    44. Wandering*

      I’m sorry anyone would do this to you (or anyone). Good for you for shutting him down.

      Since HR was no help this time, in addition to the other suggestions you’ve received here, you could contact your legal dept & ask their guidance. Sending porn on work systems should bring on consequences. Does Legal handle it? IT? I’m sure Legal will want to know about it – & know what your HR person said.

      And, you have good things to say about your HR person aside from this. You could go back to her with the same question – should you be reporting this to IT or to Legal, as you are positive that sending porn around at work is at least against company policy? Give her a second chance at it, & if she doesn’t take it at least she won’t be surprised when she hears from someone above her about this mistake.

    45. Report HR too*

      I just took a sexual harassment training and this definitely qualifies (at least in my state in the US). Your hr person is wrong or complicit.

    46. gsa*

      I did NOT all 226 replies. My first thought is attorney, based on HR’s response.

      Just don’t be all Lorena Bobbitt on him!!!

      1. Quandong*

        I think dovahkiin probably wants neverto see that person’s dick again, and they are unlikely to enact gruesome revenge in a physical sense.

    47. ArtK*

      Late contribution: I’m just now finishing the corporate (top 10 in the F500) harassment training. From that, this has all of the hallmarks of “hostile workplace.” Somebody at your corporate HR needs retraining, badly.

  3. curious question*

    I volunteer for a local county wide charity. We have our annual fundraiser coming up in the spring of next year (May 2020). It’s my first time serving on a charity committee. In your opinion, how far in advance can we start soliciting donations from companies?

    I feel like doing it now (fall 2019), things will get lost in the shuffle. If we do it six months ahead of time we’re looking at the Thanksgiving/ Christmas season. I worry if we do it at the end of the year we will not be considered for 2020 if company donation quoatas have been met. On other hands I want companies to have enough time to review our file.

    1. YourFriendlyNeighborhoodSocialMediaGuru*

      Honestly start looking as far in advance as possible. Especially if you publicize the information about who donates on social media or on your website. The more donors you have, the easier it is to get others to donate.

        1. Juniper*

          No. I ran a fundraiser for a charity in my sport, and we started looking for donations about six months out. Even with that kind of time, many of the larger companies we asked turned us down, citing the need for more time. You’ll need to have your information and flyer drafts set up already to give to them.

        2. Emi*

          I work in the printing industry, so I see a lot of other companies’ materials. Fundraising appeals start *really* early, especially for some of the big names. But, I think the size of the contributors matters more than the size of the charity. Bigger companies plan further in advance, in a way that mom-n-pop places just can’t.

        3. Clisby*

          Good heavens, no. I volunteer in a small way for my son’s public school’s annual fundraising auction. The people running it already have the venue and the caterer nailed down, and are gathering the committee of fundraisers (this also will be a spring 2020 auction.) This is not a huge school, by the way – about 600 students.

          1. Mimi Me*

            Agreed. My husband was the chair for our kids annual school fundraiser and started gathering donations for the following year the literal day after the event took place. Big donors (theme parks, sports teams, etc) usually need a lot of time for the request. The theme parks in Florida had applications and deadlines. Smaller donors (individuals, local businesses, etc) can usually be requested about 6 months ahead of time. But pay attention to the area you’re soliciting: our town has 4 schools that do similar fundraisers and two of them coincide with two big events that the town runs so if you’re not first with your request, you get nothing.

        4. Venus*

          Some companies sort out all their fundraising in advance, so when you talk with them (or email) then you might find a way of asking if there is a specific time of year that you might submit a more detailed request. I don’t do big fundraising, so don’t quote me on language, but I have had big companies respond with “We have already donated for the year” and I have essentially asked “When would be a good time to get in touch for next year?”

        5. Doug Judy*

          It’s not too early. I’m on the charitable giving committee at my job and we’ll be setting our 2020 budget here very soon. If there was a request we really were interested in we’d be able to fit it in before the budget was set. We got some later on in the year that while we would have liked to, our budget for the year was mostly spoken for by that point.

      1. Rina Beana*

        Starting now is totally fine. That gives you plenty of time to follow up so you can make sure things don’t get lost in the shuffle. Some companies plan their giving quite far in advance.

    2. MissBliss*

      It kind of depends on how big the fundraiser is. What are you soliciting? In-kind donations or cash?

      I would start now. You don’t know the company’s operating calendar, so it’s possible that they’re getting close to running out of their allocated budget (for items or cash), or it’s possible their fiscal year is just about to start and it’s the perfect time. Also, it frequently takes a while to get these things processed. Just be prepared that some people might process it right away and then send it to you right away– if it’s an item, you’ll need somewhere to put it, and if it’s cash, then they’ll need to know to carry it over to the next fiscal year (assuming May 2020 is the next fiscal year for your org).

      Good luck!

      1. Auntie Social*

        And you give the company the option of putting it in this year’s budget or next. Just put you somewhere!

    3. Deloris Van Cartier*

      What are you soliciting for? If it’s money, the earlier you can do it the better. Most companies have a budget set aside and if they are running on a FY that is the same as the calendar yer, budget talks are happening now. If there FY isn’t like that, they may be able to provide a guideline for when you can ask. If it’s in-kind donations, that’s a little more challenging but even then, I’d say earlier the better. It can take awhile for items to be sent or you may need to follow up a few times to get an item.

      The only caveat I would have is I would check with the organization about their funding cycle as you don’t want to interfere with any other events they may have coming up. It’s always a good thing to make sure that everyone is on the same page as you don’t want your fundraising to eclipse any other fundraising that they already have planned.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Start now. Companies often set their budgets before the new year starts so you want to ask while they are still deciding and not after they’ve already determined. They don’t have to cut the check right now. Also, I assume a charity is soliciting year-round and not just at one particular time of year. In fundraising you don’t just ask once and then go away, so ask now and follow up closer to the end of the year, and follow up again in March, etc.

    5. FirstTimer*

      I would start out now, but keep it kind of low-key until after the beginning of the New Year, then really start ramping up.

    6. Meg Danger*

      If you looking for in-kind donations you may have good luck in January… many companies (like restaurants, retailers, etc.) have x value ($) donations they can make in a calendar year and that amount resets in January. A lot of places treat in-kind requests as first come-first served.

    7. MoopySwarpet*

      Now is appropriate. If companies are on a calendar fiscal year, budgets for 2020 are getting started soon. I’d also reach out again January/February if your timeline allows for those who don’t stick to a strict budget procedure or have more flexibility.

    8. Parenthetically*

      What kinds of things are you having donated? The school where I used to teach does a huge annual silent auction fundraiser and the fundraising committee solicits donations year-round, really ramping up 6 months in advance. You want to have pretty much everything in the bag as early as possible, especially for big donations, so it can go in the advertising and marketing material/invitations.

    9. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’ve worked at nonprofits, and one thing that helps with prepping big events is a universal timeline, ex: a to-do list breaking tasks out over the course of the year, based on how many months are left. Tasks you do 12 months, 6 months, 90 days, 60 days, 30 days, 2 weeks, etc., prior to the event. If there isn’t one, I recommend creating one, and taking notes as you go along as to what went well (donation drive got extras from after-Christmas clearance sales!) and what didn’t go so well (volunteer attrition at 30 days was high because we did the volunteer drive 90 days in advance.)

      That way, for next year, you or whoever else is on the committee isn’t starting from scratch, and the event will go smoother.

    10. Sue*

      I agree with all the advice to start right away. My only issue with it is making sure any gift certificates you get don’t have a too-early expiration date. I’ve seen businesses do a 6 month date and that doesn’t work if the event is way off. Also, have a good space for storage of items and make your solicitation lists solid. Local business people really get annoyed if they are hit up by more than one person for an event. Good luck.

  4. The Clash*

    What salary increase, either percentage or dollar amount, would it take for you to leave a job that were otherwise happy with and were not looking to leave, assuming benefits and job responsibilities were comparable between the two? If you have made this kind of change, how did it work out for you?

    For a bit of background, I have been at my current company for almost 20 years, have steadily worked my way up over the years, am well respected at my company, and am now a lower level manager. Overall I enjoy my work, make a good living, and have good benefits, so I’m not actively looking for new opportunities. That being said, the market in my area is pretty hot for people with my background and there has been a lot of turnover as people seek new opportunities. My company is trying to remain competitive with salary and benefits, but is probably a little behind on salary relative to what others ore offering. I have been approached by a recruiter to see if I am interested in a new opportunity at another company and it seems like a good opportunity, although largely a lateral move in terms of seniority, so money would be the primary reason to make a change. I am struggling to come up with what increase it would take for me to leave, obviously there are points where there would be an easy ‘yes’ or ‘no’, but determining that middle ground is difficult. I realize this is a good position to be in but if anyone has any thoughts on the topic I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

    1. Auntie Social*

      What would your company say if you told them about your new offer? Would they beat or match it, and throw in a title increase as well? Meet the salary but give you an extra week of vacation? Think about money, but other compensation as well.

      1. The Clash*

        I think they would try to match up to a point, I am probably already on the upper end of compensation within my company relative to others with similar experience, so there would be limits to what they would be willing to do. I am looking at the total package between both positions, they are fairly close in terms of benefits and I am adjusting things where they are different, so I was just focusing on salary here.

    2. Herding Butterflies*

      I think this is really a question you ask yourself. I know not the best advice, but when you pose your question to yourself, what is your instant, gut reply? Mine, FWIW, is 10%.

      But life is not all about salary. How are the benefits at the other company? Would you get the same vacation / holiday / sick time package? How is their insurance? Do they cover all of your premium or would some / all of it come out of your paycheck? How high is the deductible? Basically, how much out-of-pocket stuff would eat into your new pay raise?

      You also say that you are well respected where you are at. If you switch jobs, you lose all of that and, despite 20 years of experience, you have to re-build your reputation. Every time I have switched jobs, it’s felt like a two year set back.

      How is the new place managed? Do they have good reviews on Glassdoor? You may be switching from a good environment to a toxic one. Or you may be switching to a great environment? Do you know which it will be?

      So, circling back to your original question, considering if you have considered all of the above, what would make you switch? Again, for me, 10% is the minimum to be willing to overcome the risks that come with changing.

      1. The Clash*

        Benefits seem fairly close, but I don’t have all the details on the new location, so I am doing my best to adjust the total compensation to compare the two. The new company looks good on Glassdoor, a little better than my current company. I haven’t engaged too much with the new company yet, so don’t have a lot of direct evidence on how they are managed, I do know someone who works there and he seems to like it, but I haven’t talked too much with him yet since he knows people at my current company and I don’t want word to get back here that I am looking.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, looking at compensation isn’t enough – you have to take into consideration work environment, benefits, flexibility, levels of autonomy, etc. My current setup is fantastic (despite my direct manager, but I don’t deal with her that often), so it would take way more than matching what I currently have to make me leave. The offer would need to exceed what I have, which will be hard to do (I work from home full-time, only have occasional work travel, I set my own work schedule, and because of this, if I’m ever ill, I don’t have to use my sick time [which rolls over from year to year and is never capped], which will allow me to use it for maternity leave should I ever need to take it before my four weeks paid parental leave kicks in).

        I’d also need to make $20,000 more a year in base compensation (I’m currently at $70k base) and I’d need guaranteed quarterly bonuses (my current job offers them as did my previous one).

    3. NACSACJACK*

      For me, the minimum would be 10% increase in salary + signing bonus to cover my loss of 401K match. If their PTO was low for new employees, I’d negotiate to the 5 year mark and if they didn’t allow that, I’d need 15-20% salary increase. If you’ve steadily risen in your company, and are not blocked from moving up, what would the next rung (or couple of rungs) in the ladder bring you?

      1. The Clash*

        I’m probably as far up in terms of management as I would like to go, there were recent openings at a higher level that I considered pursuing but ultimately decided it was not something I would like to do. I am in a technical field, so there are lateral moves I could make back into the more technical side of things, which is common for people who have left management roles, but those would be near the top rungs already, so not much more room for advancement. I don’t know how much room there would be at the new company for advancement either, but that would be something I’d need to consider.

    4. PantaloonsOnFire*

      If I was perfectly content, it would probably take a 20-30% increase, minimum. If was was casually looking and beginning to get the itch to move, maybe a 10% increase.

      The great thing about being very content with your current employment is that you can ask for way more from a would-be-recruiter without feeling like you are risking your future. Think of/research a number that seems incredibly well paid for the position in question and add 5-10%—who knows, maybe you’ll get it!

      1. The Clash*

        I’m definitely content with my current role, and have let the recruiter know so there shouldn’t be surprises if the offer is not a significant enough increase that I would not be interested. I’m kind of torn though because I do have a bit of an itch to try something new, but I also like my company and know that there would be a hole if I leave, especially considering all the other recent departures. Obviously they will survive and fill the gap if I leave, but I have a lot of institutional knowledge that will be difficult to replace, and I want this company to do well.

    5. SarcastiCarrie*

      15%, for no particular reason but that seems like it would be enough to get me to leave (assuming 15% wouldn’t still be less-competitive in your market for your skills).

    6. GGNJ*

      If benefits, commute, and hours were relatively the same, I’d want at least a 10 – 12% pay increase to make a lateral move. But, in my situation, if the commute were significantly improved, I’d even consider taking a small pay cut.

    7. Bananatiel*

      I think it’d take at least 30% for me. That’s a little bit based on feeling– what I feel like would be worth all the hassle of adjusting to a new company culture and workflow. It’s based on the fact that I do really love my current position. Also financially it would put me in a better position to buy a home so there’s a personal goals element to that reasoning, too. Just my two cents!

      1. Former Usher*

        All else being equal (and it rarely is), 30% sounds right for me, too. I think it’s important to be compensated for the risk in switching employers mid or late career.

    8. Construction Safety*

      All other things being equal?
      25%
      If your company is behind, say 10 %, then that would bring level to other companies. Add another 10% to make it a little attractive and 5% to tip it over the edge.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t be bothered to start over after almost 20 years, in a company and position I enjoyed, for less than 20%.

      This is because you are going to have the stress of reestablishing yourself. This shouldn’t be hard, I’ve always settled in within 6 months at least but it’s still stressful those six months!

      I also wonder about your retirement accounts. When will you start being eligible for your new company’s retirement account? I need to have a nice salary bump so that I can make up for the six-twelve months that may be required to work there before you’re put on their retirement program. Also when will the insurance benefits be available to you, I would need enough to comfortably cover my additional costs to continue to carry all my insurances out of pocket for 60-90-120 days whatever the waiting period may be.

      Also would you have to wait to get your same level of PTO benefits or would the new place let you negotiate that as well? Going from The Most [since you’ve been there almost two decades, I’m assuming your capped out on time off], to The Least for quite a few years would be a huge setback. Again it could be something to negotiate but it’s one of those things that after being somewhere for 20 years you don’t always think about re-setting at any time since you’re used to your X weeks vacation, etc.

      1. The Clash*

        I think vesting in retirement is immediate, not sure about insurance which is a good point since my family has a few medical issues that we would not want a gap in coverage, and want to make sure our doctors are covered. PTO looks close, but I don’t know how it is broken down since I don’t have full details yet. I will get another week of PTO when I hit my 20th year (not quite there yet), so that is something I am factoring in and need more details at the new company to compare.

      2. I edit everything*

        Good point about retirement accounts. It can take a long time to vest–presumably you’re fully vested in your current place, so you’d be risking additional retirement savings with this move. If it’s a long vesting period, that could be a substantial loss, given where you are in your career (I’m presuming you weren’t a child prodigy in your field, maybe this company wasn’t your first employer out of college, and are probably in your 40s).

      3. Windchime*

        The time off has been a dealbreaker for me recently. I’m really happy where I’m at; salary is pretty good (not amazing), but the benefits ARE amazing and I’m pretty happy with the time off. The commute is the only thing that’s bad, but now I have two Remote Work days per week and my employer’s flexibility over a recent family issue has made me decide that, for now, I’m staying put. I think that the place I recently interviewed with could probably pay me a lot more money, but my employer really values work/life balance so I’m going to stay put. For now.

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Are you me? I’ve been at my company for a little over 20 years, I’m now a junior manager, and it’s a great place to work with much better benefits and work-life balance than the rest of our industry. It would probably take at least a 20% increase in total compensation for me to consider an offer, and then I would have to look into the difference in commute, flexible schedule/telework, and just whether the type of work would feel as rewarding.

      1. cat socks*

        Same here. My work/life balance is pretty great. I can WFH as needed and have unlimited time off. I rarely have to travel and the commute is good. It would have to be 20-30% for me and I would really want to know about the company culture.

      2. The Clash*

        I’m definitely looking at all aspects, commute is a little shorter by ~10 minutes out of 30-40 minutes currently (I almost pass the new company on my way to work right now) but flexibility of schedule, work satisfaction and company culture are all going to be key factors along with salary. I just hope I can get an honest representation of those aspects and not end up somewhere that is different than advertised.

    11. T. Boone Pickens*

      Assuming all other benefits are even, I’d be looking to ask for 30% above market rate, meaning if your company is say 10% below market rate, I’d ask for a 40% bump. For me to make a move if would need to be for an amount of money that would make a hugely meaningful difference in my life like I can pay my house 5 years earlier or take that entire raise and put it towards retirement which will allow me to retire 7 years earlier or something to that effect. 10-15% to me ain’t worth shit if I’m overall very happy with my job. I need to be blown out of the water so that my current employer can’t even remotely entertain a counter offer (which would be a disaster by the way, never accept a counter offer.)

    12. Existentialista*

      I’ve never faced this choice in real life, but my feeling is that it would take something like 50-100% increase.

      You’re always taking on risk of the unknown, and you might not be as happy in the new role for all sorts of reasons, so I think it would take a big jump for me to consider it.

      1. CMart*

        Agreed. Especially at a medium-high level I would hope your current salary is one that is quite comfortable. Extra salary on top of that would be nice-but-superfluous.

        So to really shake things up, have to start from scratch and dealing with learning a whole new company, systems, culture etc… losing the built up social capital and nuanced expertise, and the unknown of whether or not I’d even be happy? the salary increase would need to be “launching me into a different standard of living/savings so great I could retire 5 years early” kind of money.

        An extra $15k/year on top of a $150k salary (seeing lots of people citing 10%, just spitballing a number here) would really not be enough to take on all of that uncertainty. Not if I was happy and still challenged at my current job.

        1. Jen2*

          Yeah, at that point, more money probably wouldn’t be enough of a reason to start a new job. It would probably take a shorter commute, more vacation time, or some other perks.

        2. NewNameTemporarily*

          I turned down 33% because
          * switch from my comfortable, work-from-home-if-I-want-to job, to driving 2 hours each way in heavy traffic
          * Not really wanting to move from trusted SME with inclusion in the great projects, to having to prove self every single time (in a startup culture)
          * researched the realities of my PTO & retirement benefits – I’m at the same time at company as you are, and it turns out…we have a really good deal that adds up a lot.
          And I am happy and high energy at my current job, with opportunities to keep moving up if I want them. So… money wasn’t the point. It wasn’t going to make me happier, and it was going to make me a lot more stressed.

    13. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      If I had been with a company for that long and was perfectly content, it would take a large increase to make me consider moving (20% or more). I’ve also always been of the mind that salary isn’t always the most important thing about a job. While it doesn’t hurt to have a conversation (but be up front with the recruiter about what it would take for you to leave), it sounds like you’re happy and being with a company for that long comes with perks (outside of financial benefits). The grass isn’t always greener…

    14. Goldfinch*

      I have a great boss and decent benefits, so that number would be pretty high for me–I’d say at least 25%.

      Second criterion: Benefits vesting. I’m mid-career, and there’s no way I’m starting back at the bottom with crap PTO or a waiting period for 401k matching. Some places around here are rigid about “all new employees start at 10 days vacation, no matter how much experience” and I’d nope right out of that.

      Third criterion: I’m at the upper limit of how far I’m willing to commute, so the new company would need to be inside the ‘home to current job’ circumference.

    15. Clementine*

      I probably have a weird perspective, but my feeling is that you can stay too long at a job, particularly if you haven’t had massive advancements. It’s worth trying something new to keep your resume “fresh”.

      Still, I think they need you more than you need them, so I’d probably suggest to try for a 25% salary increase.

    16. MoopySwarpet*

      For me, it would be have to be a whole lot. Although, the percentage/dollar would probably matter less than the ability to live where/how I want. To stay in the same area, I would need a 25% increase to even glance at the job. A 50+% increase and I’d be tempted to bail even if I had reservations about the job or company.

      To live in the area I want to (lower cost of living, but fewer jobs), I would take a job at the same or even slightly lower salary/benefits package. Especially if they offered a relocation package and some WFH days.

      My circumstances are a little different than average, though, because I have a solid backup plan if something happens to my current job. (Something I think anyone who works for a small business/entrepreneur needs.)

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Twenty years at one place is asking you to leave a LOT behind. Your compensation for doing this should be more than just a good pay raise. I see the job is a lateral move pretty much. I am kind of yawning here.

      If you are happy at your place it is impossible to put a dollar value on that happiness. Job security is another thing that is priceless. Knowing your workplace and the personalities involved is another thing you cannot put a definitive value on.

      Maybe I would take a look at the new position just to satisfy myself, but I’d keep at the forefront of my thinking just how much I would be leaving behind.

      I am a conservative person. A good many people are willing to take more risks than I do. You know you best, how do you do when it comes to taking a chance? For me, I have to decide to commit to the change no matter what happens. If I cannot commit in that way, then I do not take the risk.

    18. A Non E. Mouse*

      25% in salary, benefits, or a combination of the two things together (our benefits here are fine, they are just expensive – if I got the same elsewhere for less money OR made more in salary to cover it, that would be fine).

      I’d take less (15 to 20% increase) if it was closer to home, and even less (10 to 15%) for the right job if it was work-from-home, as both things would greatly increase the quality of life for my family.

      So not only is money a factor, but benefits and commute.

    19. Owl*

      Mine is about 13%, but I’m new at my job so I’d risk job hopper status and that effects things.

    20. epi*

      My husband makes most of our money because I am a grad student, but I’m probably about 2 years out from making real money again myself. Lucky for us, my husband has a lot of institutional knowledge at his current company and is a bit overpaid compared to the market, basically so he won’t leave– which he would have by now. So my target salary would really be whatever would take the golden handcuffs off my husband and give him a turn doing whatever he wants. $10K would probably do it.

      In your situation, I’d definitely be responding to recruiters– why not really?– and possibly applying on my own to anything that looked particularly interesting. This is a great context for job searching, when you are feeling good, not desperate, and have no reason to settle. When you have an offer in front of you, with specifics about the money and the work and the changes to your day to day life that would be involved, it will be a lot clearer if you should take it. Since you’ve been off the market for a long time, you might also just benefit from the practice going through this process. That way you’ll be prepared if something you really want comes along.

    21. pinfu dora*

      For me this was 35% (slightly over $20k). I was very happy at my former employer, especially with the work I was doing.

      I finished my Master’s degree and at review time got a promotion with a paltry 8% raise. I pushed back on this and tried to renegotiate my salary. Manager and director both went to bat for me but any additional adjustment was blocked by HR and the owner. I was deflated, stopped rebuffing recruiters, and landed a new position with large increase inside of 6 weeks of my attempts to negotiate something closer to market. Didn’t even bother entertaining a counter-offer.

      Fast forward and my current employer moved locations and my commute is way too long for my taste. I’m living much more comfortably and I have more disposable income for travel and hobbies. The commute is wearing me down and after about 3 years I’m looking to move again because bonuses shrunk, salaries have been stagnant, and the market is just much better (easily could land another 20-30% increase) by moving to a neighboring state.

      Was it worth it? Maybe not for job satisfaction, but the stage is set now for the next move to be double the salary of the job I left less than 3 years back. If you started career in the Great Recession, it’s about the only way to catch up.

    22. Quinalla*

      If there is really no difference otherwise, then for me I would want 10% minimum and also solidly where you should be for the market rate if that is more than 10%. In my last job move, I raised it to 15% minimum because my commute went from 5-10 minutes to 30-45 minutes. But honestly for me, the take home pay difference was what I looked at more than the % increase, how much $$ per month was it worth it to uproot from somewhere I was fairly comfortable. I ended up getting a lot more than that (~25%), but I was very underpaid in my last position.

      At my current place, I’d probably need 15% to consider moving as I have so much advancement potential where I am right now.

    23. Nom de plume*

      I really value a good work culture and I would prefer to work at a good company than make extra money but (potentially) be miserable. So another way to frame it would be, what salary would i need to make to last a a job with a bad work culture for a year without regretting my decision? For me, that’s probably a 30% raise as others have suggested.
      One way to calculate this is come up with a starting point, say 5%, and calculate the salary that would be and take a look at that number written down. Then your gut will tell you if it’s enough to accept the job. If it’s not, then look at what 10% is, and on until you come up with a number that attracts you.

      I did this for my last job which required me to move to a new city – I said, they need to pay me $X amount more to incentivise me to move, and that’s what they ended up offering me. I don’t regret it at all – when i eventually move back to my original city, i’ll have a much better salary history because of this job.

      Good luck!

    24. Master Bean Counter*

      Honestly my history is moving from one job to the next comes with at least a 12.5% increase. To get me away from where I was happy took at least 50%. Once I double my salary with a move. I’m at the point now that I can’t count on the big increases. The next move will be for a title change more than anything. If I move at all.

  5. heckofabecca*

    I’ve been asked to write a letter of recommendation for a professor who’s being evaluated for a tenured position at my university. (I’m an undergrad student there.) Does anyone (esp. folks in academia) have any suggestions for specific things for me to mention/focus on to impress the committee with how great this professor is? Thanks in advance!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      How has this person affected your life or education? Do you have any examples for how they went above and beyond for you (or other students)? Have they done anything unique or noteworthy while teaching?

      Any specific examples you can come up with for how this professor has furthered your education or career goals would be great.

    2. deesse877*

      I agree that you should be as detailed as possible, ideally by discussing a specific piece of your own work, and how it fits into your education as a whole. If you go to a small school where close mentoring relationships are valued, say a bit about that too. If you go to a large school where research is valued, try to say something about the prof’s own research if you can–it will be impressive if they can see that they made it accessible to undergrads. If there are any student clubs or activities they’re involved in, mention those in all cases.

    3. Nesprin*

      So the tenure board is looking for: can teach, can mentor research/independent work, can serve community, can manage diversity/inclusion issues with grace and aplomb.
      One note: letters for women tend to focus more on emotional issues and less on talent: i.e. Female is described as caring and nuturing, whereas Male is described as brilliant and a leader. The latter is much more interesting to hiring committees

      If it helps, letters should be 1-3 pages and my standard letter format is:
      Paragraph 1: am writing to recommend A for job B. I’ve known A in C capacity for D Yrs, and can speak to their ability to do E,F, and G. I am particularly impressed by their personal characteristics H, I, J.
      Paragraph 2-5: Anecdotes, data and experiences that person has with E, F, G, H, I, J. More specific== more better.
      Closing Paragraph: In summary, A will be an outstanding B. I am happy to discuss further, my email and phone are.
      Sincerely,

      1. Mellow*

        Respectfully, I disagree. This pattern sounds like it would come from a colleague. I do agree with Elizabeth Proctor’s 1-page-only recommendation.

        I suggest writing about the ways in which this professor has helped you grow and to see beyond yourself. Seems like a good candidate for defining “great…professor.”

      2. Mellow*

        “…can mentor research/independent work, can serve community, can manage diversity/inclusion issues with grace and aplomb.”

        The question is from an undergraduate student. How would she or he be able to evaluate the professor on those things? Curious.

        “…letters for women tend to focus more on emotional issues and less on talent: i.e. Female is described as caring and nuturing, whereas Male is described as brilliant and a leader. The latter is much more interesting to hiring committees…”

        Is this really a generalizable fact?

        1. Ali*

          “Is this really a generalizable fact?”

          There is research evidence for gender bias in student evaluations. Speaking as a female academic, it is also absolutely my personal experience that I am described as “warm and nurturing” far more often in recommendations and evaluations, and the men in my profession are described as “brilliant leaders.” It is indeed a generalizable fact and it sucks.

          https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/03/14/study-says-students-rate-men-more-highly-women-even-when-theyre-teaching-identical

        2. AshK434*

          It actually is. I just read a research paper on this. I feel like the vibes of your comments are overly nit picky.

        3. Triumphant Fox*

          It actually is. There have been studies on performance evaluations over time and in particular in academia – especially around the teacher evaluation system and tenure process.

          https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/20/fighting-gender-bias-student-evaluations-teaching-and-tenures-effect-instruction
          https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science-and-politics/article/gender-bias-in-student-evaluations/1224BE475C0AE75A2C2D8553210C4E27

        4. OrigCassandra*

          Yep. Plenty of research on it, and if you look you can find encapsulated guidelines for avoiding it.

        5. Alice*

          Yes. I will post links in a reply. For now, here is a title — look for it in PubMed or Google Scholar

          A Linguistic Comparison of Letters of Recommendation for Male and Female Chemistry and Biochemistry Job Applicants

        6. Not that kind of doctor*

          To point #1:
          A student can speak to the professor’s inclusion/community efforts in a number of ways. Did they include diverse material in their syllabus (for example, a broader selection of authors than the traditional canon of Dead White Men)? If applicable, did they tie their subject to issues that might be affecting or be of particular interest to the student population — especially if the student body is diverse and/or has lots of first-generation college students? If a student asked a difficult/awkward/probing question, how did they respond? Brush it off or engage with the issue head-on? Has the professor supervised any honors theses or independent studies? Supported the student’s application to a summer research program or internship? For that matter, did they advertise to students the opportunities available to them from the university or industry? Act as a faculty advisor to any student groups?

          To point #2:
          I’m always leery of generalizations, too, but there have been a lot of studies showing how gender bias plays out in student evaluations. To pick only a couple reports:
          https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/03/14/study-says-students-rate-men-more-highly-women-even-when-theyre-teaching-identical
          https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/11/the-gendered-language-students-use-to-describe-their-professors/416823/

        7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s well-documented and widespread, which is usually the standard for a generalizable fact.

          And undergrads are often excellent at being able to weigh in on diversity and inclusion, as well as mentorship. They’re not required to talk about what the professor does at the university-level, but they can easily talk about the methods their professor uses in the classroom or in office hours to create an inclusive learning environment.

        8. tamarack and fireweed*

          “Is this a generalizable fact?” – What was not really clear to me in the above response and that the requester should consider is: This is not something you should do, but something you shouldn’t do.

          (And I don’t know what a generalizable fact is, but it is a fact established by research. Statistically.)

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Be very detailed and use specific examples. I’ve had to write two of these recommendations as a student, and I talked about the following:

      1. The professor’s teaching effectiveness (e.g., ability to break down complex issues, ability to draw themes between issues, respect for students in the classroom, ability to ignite thoughtful conversations).
      2. Mentorship, accessibility in office hours, and general ability to be supportive of students. (this can include serving on your senior thesis committee, generally being supportive when you come with questions and taking time to give you feedback, finding funding opportunities for you, referring you for programs or competitive academic opportunities, hiring you as an RA, etc.).
      3. Service—does your professor serve as a faculty advisor to student orgs? Do they engage in other service to the University/community that you know about or interact with? [Ok to leave this out of your letter if you have no experience/knowledge of it or strong examples/experiences to cite]

      Be very careful when it comes to the professor’s gender/race. Oftentimes women and POC are described in less “academically rigorous” terms (i.e., overemphasis on emotional support and mentorship, with less focus on their scholarship and teaching excellence or leadership). You want to ensure that your letter hits all the criteria that the tenure committee is looking for.

    5. Betty*

      In addition to everything Kimmy said, I’d add– What were the aspects of the class that made them a particularly effective teacher? Did they have great examples that brought the concepts to life in a new way? Handled class discussions really well? Gave great feedback on your writing? Paired readings together in an interesting way? (Etc.)

    6. Existentialista*

      It depends on your discipline, but in my experience being on a search committee for a faculty position, the highest praise was, “X has a frightening intellect,” so you could see if you could work that phrase in, and the lowest insult was “X is a hard worker,” so, avoid saying that.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      As an undergrad, I would first emphasize how the professor has helped you grow in your research – if you had her as a supervisor for a summer project or school project, if she stoked your interest in the field to encourage you to major in it/go on for further education/work in the field, facilitated connections with other researchers. Then teaching ability – good lecturer, organized with clear expectations.

      When it comes to tenure, what most universities care about is mostly research and publication – are they publishing first author papers, leading research groups and projects and supervising students who go on to do well. Teaching ability and admin work must be done without screwing up too badly, but aren’t that important, and quite frankly, being too invested in teaching can be a liability at a research university. If you’re at a primarily undergraduate school with a reputation for good teaching the balance is different, however.

    8. Owl*

      Has she told you what would be helpful? I’m sure she knows exactly what they will want to know and hear. If i were in her shoes I would feel uncomfortable asking you something like “hey can you mention how great I am at keeping attention in long lectures” knowing there is a power imbalance and you might not feel comfortable saying no. I bet if you told her you were really invested in her getting tenure and asked for advice, she might have several things she’d want you to discuss and tips on how to be helpful.

    9. Deirdre*

      I would interested in knowing who asked you to write the letter.

      If it’s the review committee, normally those being asked will be provided with a general outline of what the committee would like the letter to address: teaching, scholarship, community service, and sometime other topics (diversity/inclusion, mentorship, etc).

      If the professor asked you to write the letter, it might be worthwhile asking her/him if there are areas they would like you to focus on in your letter. I imagine it would your classroom experience (teaching/mentoring/availability); if you worked for them doing research, speaking to their leadership style, etc.

    10. LibbyG*

      What a kind thing you’re doing!

      Your letter will be part of a huge dossier that details the professor’s teaching, research, and professional service. So your part is just to tell your story. Don’t feel like you have to cover all the bases. There will be all sorts of evidence of their teaching effectiveness in the dossier; your letter brings that kind of data to life by describing the professor’s genuine commitment to teaching well and the impact it has. So a few general statements and some good, vivid specifics will be gold.

  6. Fortitude Jones*

    This is just a vent; not seeking advice: My manager is still petty as hell and isn’t going to change.

    I work in the tech industry dealing with niche products that I have to help sell. My coworkers lead the proposal process (I’m a writer – they aren’t), and some of them have told her in the past that they’d like more training on the products we offer because when they’re reading and editing the proposals they receive from our SMEs and sales team, they don’t understand the mechanics of how the products are supposed to work (and a lot of our sales team doesn’t either, but that’s a whole other story). Well, apparently, she hand-waved their concerns and kept it moving.

    Grandboss started with the company early this year, and apparently several of my coworkers told him that they’d like additional training on the products so they can know what the sales team is talking about on proposal calls and can quickly flag inaccuracies in the way we’re positioning our products to customers (like I said above, many of our sales folks don’t even know exactly what these products do).

    I also expressed an interest in receiving some kind of formal training because we have over 200 products, with six that we regularly submit proposals for, and I’d like to know what the hell these products do as well because I’m often tasked with editing their solution overviews, and I can’t do a thorough copy edit if I don’t know what is or isn’t an inconsistency/inaccuracy. I’m also a content manager, but again – can’t really do a thorough job at it if I can’t sit and talk to the people who actually developed the product to know how it works.

    Well, grandboss said he was going to run the idea of us attending a three day conference that’s coming up next year where our engineers will be doing workshops and demonstrations of a few of our major products. We then get an email this afternoon from her with links to online resources she says we should use to learn about products along with a condescending quote from one of her friend’s books that basically says that PMs don’t need to be subject matter experts, they just need to know enough to get proposals out the door. This wouldn’t have been such a problem if my coworkers hadn’t already seen most of the videos she linked to and still don’t understand the product specs – she’s completely ignoring the fact that some people don’t learn from watching webinars or reading dry user manuals.

    I just don’t understand why she’s so resistant to her employees wanting to learn about what it is we’re selling. Most managers would be happy to have inquisitive employees who want to get a deeper understanding of their work so they can properly edit what’s being sent to them, but she’s acting like this is a nonsensical request – it’s the weirdest shit I’ve ever seen. She’s reminding me of a former manager I had years ago who hoarded knowledge like her life depended on it. I genuinely think my new manager, like the old one, just does not want anyone to have the same level of product understanding that she has because she gets off on being the only one who knows things. It’s annoying and incredibly unbecoming – her massive ego is getting in the way of her team’s growth.

    And what annoys me more is that grandboss sees that she’s like this (he’s hinted around to it by saying things like, “Well, you know how she can get”) and is deferring to her anyway. Like, dude – she reports to you, not the other way around. Grandboss was all for our team getting product training, and now he’s mysteriously silent on this matter. I just can’t with people kowtowing to ridiculous behavior.

    1. juliebulie*

      I know you’re just venting, but yeah, that’s weird shit that I don’t understand.

      I have a similar problem where theoretically, I can do my job without knowing much about the products… but I can do an infinitely better job if I understand the products, how they are used, and the industries who use them.

      Shame on us for wanting to do an infinitely better job.

      Since this is typical for my line of work, I don’t expect this to be improved by changing employers.

      1. jarofbluefire*

        From a customer perspective, might I point out that this kind of culture is, sadly, common, and is incredibly frustrating for those of us who buy, use, and should-be-able-to-but-can’t-especially recommend products with bad support?

        Feel free to mention this if you think it would help your case. I instinctively start to mistrust a company where it’s clear the salespeople do *not* know the product, and when in a sales call there’s either no tech consultant, or the tech consultant that is in on the call is clearly in over their head. It makes me wary of upgrading or buying additional products, and I’m certainly disinclined to purchase training packages or support warranties.

        Just some backup that might help.

        1. Happy Lurker*

          Agreeing with jarofbluefire’s comment.
          I just spent some months off and on trying to get on board with a new product our customer wants us to use. No one in customer service can answer my basic questions about how certain situations work. As soon as I find one person I can interface with and begin to understand the details, they quit! I am on my third good person in 6 months.
          SMH is all I can do at this point. When my boss asks me why it isn’t working, I tell them I call but the don’t know why either.

        2. juliebulie*

          I agree with you. The problem is, the people who make the purchasing decisions about our projects are not the same people who actually use them, so they don’t feel your pain – especially if their corporate culture is as broken as ours is.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Not giving advice, she just appears to be a fear based manager. She sees her product knowledge as the Hope Diamond and her squirrel brain is telling her that if other employees have the same level of knowledge as her that she’ll immediately get tossed out on her ass. Best of luck going forward, I doubt anything changes with your manager unless it comes from several levels above your grandboss or your company loses a huge sale due to lack of product knowledge.

    3. lemon*

      The only semi-rational reasons I can think for not wanting to share product knowledge: 1. concerns about confidentiality and intentional/unintentionally leaking the wrong info to competitors; or 2. The product isn’t that great and only kind of does what sales promises it does, and she wants to keep this on the DL as much as possible.

      Those are still crummy reasons, though. If you’ve got good products, you should want to share as much info as you can about them.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I once worked for someone who considered *himself* the subject matter expert, not our engineers.
      It was perplexing and I didn’t find a good way around it…so I really understand the venting.

    5. Kimmybear*

      What jumped out to me is that you say you’re an editor and Grandboss says you’re a PM? Could that be the source of the problem? I say that as a it training/communications person in a PM department

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        No, everyone is very clear that my official title is one thing, but I mainly perform technical editing and content management duties. The proposal managers here are basically being used as highly paid admins in a lot of cases because they don’t have enough product understanding to do thorough technical edits on proposals I’m too busy to handle. A lot of us want training because the core of both jobs regardless of titles is ensuring our proposal documents are clear, accurate, readable, persuasive, and consistent – if we have limited knowledge of what we’re selling, how can we tell whether or not our proposals are accurate? We can’t.

    6. ThatMarketingChick*

      The joys of proposal writing and management. I fall firmly into the camp of those who think not enough Proposal Managers or Writers understand what their company actually does. I regularly have my staff visit our project sites (we’re a construction firm) so they can see what we actually do. It makes them better writers and they develop their ability to ask the right questions during reviews to prod the SMEs. It also makes them more valuable, more efficient, and more passionate about what we do! It’s an investment in our proposal process and their happiness.
      In your case, I think this needs to be re-addressed with your boss. This really is more of an issue of a manager not supporting the development of her team. I’d format it something like this: “hey boss, I’d like to attend the [conference] since it seems like a great way for us to learn about ABC Company’s solutions. I think we, as a proposal department, could add a lot of value to the sales cycle if we could more critically review the proposals we’re sending out the door.” Talk about how it would improve interaction with SMEs (you’ll be speaking the same language), your efficiency, and your team’s value to the company. And ask why the idea seemed to die – was it budget? Did someone else nix it? There could be circumstances that you don’t see (giving her the benefit of the doubt here).
      IMHO, proposal teams are sometimes disregarded as those who only edit or make pretty layouts. Yes, we do that, but we also advocate for the customer’s desired solution. Sales teams like to “we-we” all over the proposals. You have the opportunity to influence how your company responds to RFPs and set yourselves apart from others. I highly recommend checking out the Association of Proposal Management Professionals. I’ve attended their conferences and webinars for years, and constantly visit the site for resources. Good luck.

  7. LilacLily*

    So here’s the deal: I’ve been job searching since mid-May; I live in South America and have European citizenship, and I’ve been looking for a job in the UK (my old nickname here was Leah so some of you might remember me! I’ve posted quite a few of my woes throughout this job search saga in the Friday open threads, and you all have been super helpful and supportive throughout this whole process ♡)

    Guys, I am delighted to inform that after three months of job searching I finally got an interview!!! It was all super quick: the job was posted last Thursday, I spent the weekend writing a cover letter, applied on Monday, and Tuesday I got an e-mail to schedule a Zoom call! I had the interview yesterday and I think it went really well. I wrote a really thoughtful and personalized thank-you note, which I sent this morning to the recruiter who spoke to me. I have a feeling they need someone asap, which is why the whole thing was so quick – the recruiter even apologized for how short-notice the interview was, which tbh I didn’t mind at all – and considering I’m on a short timeline because of Brexit I’m really happy. To make matters even better, the job is at a company/industry that is really hard to break into and the office is in the city I was hoping to relocate to! The salary isn’t exactly what I was hoping for but it’s not under the market value at all and I’d be able to get by and have money left for myself. Honestly it all sounds perfect and I’m super excited.

    Keep your fingers crossed for me! I’ll post again next week to let you all know if they’re calling me back for the second interview with the hiring manager :D

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      Yay! I really hope you get a second interview and the job! I understand the waiting game as I’m job searching/interviewing myself.

      1. LilacLily*

        good luck to you!

        and yeah the waiting game is by far the worse part! when the recruiter apologized for the short notice deep down I was like DUDE DONT APOLOGIZE THIS WAS AWSOME (I understand now that I’ve read Alison’s book that more time to prepare never hurts, but god I really hate when the hiring process drags on for months)

  8. TrainingQuandary*

    I’m actively looking for a new job. My current job wants to send me to a 2 week industry training course in late October. This is training I’d ordinarily jump at the chance to attend. I’m the only one in my work group who wants to go and I’d enthusiastically mentioned interest in the course topic to my manager about a year ago.
    It feels a little shady if I say I can attend the training and have my current employer pay the (rather pricey) course fees and buy my plane ticket when I am hoping to work elsewhere by then. However, I also know I can’t predict the future and might not have found/started a new job by then. Advice? Should I just say I have a scheduling conflict? Or schedule the training course and potentially cause my current employer to have to eat those costs if I’m no longer working there in October? I think I’d also feel guilty if I went to the training and then left the company shortly after.

    1. valentine*

      Proceed as though you’re not leaving and get your training. You needn’t feel guilty, but, guilt-wise, leaving shortly after the training, if you’re going to document it for your team who don’t want to go, is the best-case scenario.

      1. TrainingQuandary*

        Oh, that is a really good idea about documenting the training. It would for sure ease the guilt factor a bit. Thanks!

    2. AccountantWendy*

      Schedule the training! You never know what will happen. It’s the cost of doing business. They will send someone else to the training or just suck up the cancellations fees. Don’t feel guilty: don’t give them that power. You cannot predict the future, you make the best decision you can based on what you know now. And what you know now is that you work for this company, which wants to send you on this training, which you want to attend. Stop there. And good luck with your search!

    3. Nanc*

      To be really macabre: You could also drop dead the day before you leave for the training and they’d still have to eat the cost and cover your job.

      I would guess professional training courses see this sort of thing all the time. They may be able to send someone else or at the very least get a credit towards a later training date.

      Do what’s best for you. If you get another job, be professional in acknowledging the issue/cost and if you can, research the options available for cancellations, etc. and pass them along.

      Good luck with everything and let us know how it goes.

    4. Shannon*

      Do NOT feel guilty. Schedule this training. It took me seven months to find a new opportunity. I’m not suggesting it will take you that long, but October is not far away!

      There’s also the chance that the training may open up a better opportunity at your current employer, as well (if you’ve any interest in staying).

      Good luck with the hunt!

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      If you were in final interview stages presently than yeah, I’d say it’s a little shady. However, you don’t mention anything of that sort so I’d say proceed with the training as normal. I like the suggestion valentine mentioned about documenting if need be as a peace offering if need be.

    6. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Nothing is a guarantee, so go to the training. But I’d also check your employee handbook to see if you’re obligated to stay for a certain length of time after they pay for your training. This is usually only something I’ve seen at previous companies concerning paying for employees to go to school, but every place is different so it’s better to CYA.

    7. Mel*

      I’m pretty sure this (or a similar question) has been answered by Allison before. I believe that the advice was to book as if you weren’t leaving, because such training of staff is simply the cost of doing business.

    8. Observer*

      Go to the training. Unless you actually have something in motion already, the chance that you will be elsewhere by late October is actually not all that high.

  9. Trying to Manage Volunteers*

    Do any of you manage volunteers in your job? Looking for some advice. I’m not a volunteer manager specifically, but I do oversee our advisory board to a government agency which has over 60 volunteer members (as well as a few government employees). Supervising the volunteers is a real challenge for me. The majority of them are polite and helpful, give good input, etc. But we also have a few are incredibly difficult to work with. 1. Calls me nearly daily with absurd requests (can I send her an IT person to her house to fix her personal computer at the government’s expense) or requesting I do menial tasks for her (like google the phone numbers for them that are very much publicly available). And she’s pretty nasty about it. 2. Another member sent me over 60 emails about a single meeting, including 22 in a single day, many requesting the same information multiple times that had already been provided. She’s at least kind about it.

    This advisory board is only supposed to be about 25% of my job and between the two of these members and a few others, I feel like it’s taking over my role so much that I’m can’t keep up on other stuff. I’ve raised the concern with my bosses, but don’t seem to be getting much support. The political appointees I manage the board for don’t seem to care too much about how I’m treated, they just don’t want to make a member mad at any cost basically.

    For my personal sanity, I obviously need to set some bounds of reason here, but know I can’t just treat them exactly like I would a direct report employee. And I have to do it super carefully so there isn’t blow back to the higher ups that I’ve outraged these people who are pretty easily outraged. Any ideas from more specialized volunteer management people or folks with experience on volunteer boards?

    1. Squeakrad*

      Why can’t you go to the higher ups and say exactly what you said here? Maybe with a bit more politesse but I can’t imagine they would want volunteers who were just respectful of your time and to you personally.

      1. Trying to Manage Volunteers*

        Unfortunately they are very much aware. There is pretty appalling pattern of ignoring concerns about the group. My predessor in the role told me that a volunteer physically kicked her and was allowed to stay.

        In my immediate boss’ defense, he just found out about 60 email lady, because it just happened, but they all are fully familiar with the daily nasty caller. I’m going to meet with my immediate boss about it next week. I was mostly hoping I might get some ideas to take to the meeting from people with more experience in volunteer management.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Why aren’t you given the authority to release volunteers who are not working out?

          Is there an introductory handbook with written rules for volunteers? If not there needs to be.

          1. Trying to Manage Volunteers*

            They are appointed to the board by the head of our department. I can recommend that people be removed, but it is ultimately the up to the department head. We have some loose guidelines in our policy, but I do think I’ll recommend to my boss that we strengthen that.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              My second suggestion is that you implement annual renewals. Each year the volunteer re-ups for the up coming year. This doesn’t have to mean redoing their application to volunteer, it can just mean that everyone’s status is confirmed or denied each year.

    2. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Volunteers are so tricky. But there are also reasonable limits that can be set, even if you can’t “fire” them.

      Given that this is only 25% of your job, start treating it that way. Spend two hours a day on volunteer stuff and leave the rest until tomorrow. This means not picking up the phone every time Annoying Volunteer calls (or even listening to every voicemail as it comes it) or responding to all 22 (gag) clueless emails. Start being less responsive. Answer your phone only between 10 and 12 (take it off the hook the rest of the time if you can). Check vms only once a day. Respond to emails within X hours, but not more frequently than that. Also, if someone has sent you multiple emails within that designated time period, respond to all their emails with ONE of your own (you don’t want to reply to 22 emails and get 22 additional replies!) However, continue to be perfectly professional and polite (it’s more difficult for people to justify their outrage if you still a lovely person when you do interact with them, plus you’ll have a wonderfully polite email trail to back you up). This is part of your job, but it’s definitely not ALL of your job and you shouldn’t have to act like it is.

      If volunteers complain to your higher-ups that they can’t reach you at all hours of the day or night, explain that the volunteer management portion of your job was preventing you from getting other work done, so you’ll had to set personal limits on the time you devote to responding to their calls and emails. However you’re still committed to responding to all urgent communications ASAP and non-urgent communications within 48 hours (or whatever is reasonable).

      I work with volunteers constantly, and even manage them on occasion, but it’s only a small part of my work and I am deliberate about not being always available. Unless something is urgent, I respond to emails within 48 hours and make it a point to only check my volunteer-related email account once a day. Luckily almost no one has my phone number, so luckily I don’t have to put up with that insanity.

      Best of luck!

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Actually, you can “fire” them. It happens all the time. They get told their services are not required, or that a different person will be handling their tasks.

        I’ve fired a volunteer for being impossible for some of our critical people to work with – it was fire one (for good reason) or lose six talented and loyal people.

    3. FirstTimer*

      Oooh, this is an interesting topic for me as well! I don’t currently do a lot of volunteer managing, but we are reorganizing and I will eventually be running a few committees.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      I don’t manage volunteers but my close coworker does.

      Coworker would fire them. Because, seriously, this is bonkers.

      At the very least, Coworker would tell that difficult one that this wasn’t our job and that Volunteer needed to handle that kind of thing herself, and then would not respond to further requests/demands. Coworker would probably tell Sixty Emails that this information had been provided and that, in the future, she needed to take better notes.

      1. Lilith*

        Can you designate a volunteer supervisor who everyone reports to and asks questions of? That person could be the one who gets all the emails & phone calls. But you just spend the bulk of your 25% with this one person going over details.

      2. MsChanandlerBong*

        I’m laughing so hard right now b/c “Sixty Emails” gave me an idea for a nickname for my former boss. He moved over to our sister company last year, so he’s no longer my direct boss, but he’s still *a* boss in the company, so he does have authority over me. I’m gonna start calling him “500 Emails.”

        I’ll post the story in a separate comment so it doesn’t derail this thread.

    5. Ashley*

      Can you be a little less responsive and screen calls a little more? If you aren’t there to jump it might help slow down some of the calls.

    6. Interplanet Janet*

      I don’t do it professionally, but I have run a couple of volunteer orgs for many years.

      +100 to PantaloonsOnFire’s advice. You may not be able to “fire” volunteers, but you can set boundaries and the worst ones will sometimes go away on their own. Your hire-ups can’t exactly complain if someone quits because you won’t set an IT person to their house to fix their personal computer, right?

      Is there a special email for volunteers? If not, can you have one set up? That way you can corral (slash ignore-at-times) all that work in one spot.

      In my experience, polite, kind, but extremely firm boundaries work well with toddlers, unbroke horses, AND volunteers.

    7. Deloris Van Cartier*

      Like some others said here, letting them go or firing them would by ideal but sometimes that’s not an option. Usually when I’ve had these types of volunteers, I try and model behavior that I want. This both helps my sanity by setting some boundaries as I tend to be more positive and responsive in the way they want when they follow my model than theirs. For the first volunteer, I would talk to your supervisors about what is a reasonable request in their minds. They may say yes, we do want you to google for her or they may say no, that’s an unreasonable request and then you can talk through how you can handle that with her. I’d also track how much time your spending on just this individual. Sometimes showing how much it’s impacting your ability to do other work can change the internal narrative. Unfortunately the nastiness is not something that you can probably fix, unless you got rid of her, so it’s just figuring how how to not let it impact you. Generally I’m firm but very nice with those people and they just get tired of it.

      For the 60 email person, I wouldn’t respond to each email one by one. Wait until the end of the day and respond in one email and say you thought it would be more concise to have all the answers in one place. I also tend to reply to emails that I’ve already sent and ask people to review them and if that didn’t answer their question, to please let me know how I can help with any additional information. Most times people want to take the easy way out so it’s redirecting them to show them they can find the information. Also I’d look at the questions shes asking. Is it something that other people may find helpful and could you post it on a community site or an internal group. You could then refer her back there to find the resources she needs.

      I also wonder if there is an internal member who could help out with some of these tasks. Could you have a communication chair or someone who helps fields some of the requests. You can set up some firm guidelines for them and they may be more reasonable to someone who is also a volunteer. If you do go this path, just make sure you give that person guidelines so they can put them into action with the more challenging folks.

    8. Gumby*

      I wouldn’t do it because you said 60emails is nice, but it’s so *so* tempting to tell 60emails that DailyCaller is now volunteering to handle your correspondence from other volunteers. They can bother each other and leave you alone…

    9. CM*

      Wait, why does the advisory board need 60 members? That’s the first thing I would try to figure out, since, if there are fewer board members, it might be easier to corral them and make sure they all understand what’s happening or have a chance to discuss it at an appropriate time (like during their meetings).

      In any event, it doesn’t sound like your role is managing the advisory board members — it sounds like it might be supporting the advisory board or maybe organizing the advisory board. That means pushing back on them is happening in a different framework — less “how to manage volunteers” and more “how to stop stakeholders from making unreasonable demands of you when your boss won’t back you up.”

      That second thing is really difficult to do, and the reality might be that, if your boss won’t back you up when you try to set boundaries, you’re eventually going to have to find another job.

      With that in mind, my advice would be to enforce reasonable boundaries on what you are and aren’t willing to do without drawing attention to the fact that you’re doing it. If you decide that you’re only going to deal with emails from your spammer once every three days, don’t make a big announcement about it. Just silently let the emails collect in a filter until the time you’ve set aside to deal with them. If the spammer questions you about it, don’t explain or justify — just say something like, “I’m sorry I can’t be as responsive as you’d like,” and redirect to whatever their actual question was.

      Basically, the strategy is to do what you need to do (set boundaries) but forestall the point where this becomes a confrontation, because the confrontation might end with you losing your job over someone else’s unreasonable expectations.

    10. June First*

      I have some very high maintenance volunteers. Agree with the comments about boundaries. I had one who would call me every day and talk for half an hour. Sometimes multiple times a day. I finally explained that it was taking time away from the project.
      Can you find/create a project for them? Sometimes their energy just needs to be focused. If it’s something where they can update you weekly, that might be best.
      Good luck!

    11. Brrr*

      Another idea is to have an annual “training” for the members. Review their position descriptions about what their responsibilities are and what your role is. Create a FAQ list of the most common questions you receive that you can hand out, go over the mandate of the group. You can also provide other training that would be enriching to the group and focus them on your mission. I would also create an on boarding process for new Dolan that sets the stage about what their and your role is. This last is a long term fix but you have to start somewhere.

  10. Eillah*

    Our office move (happening today) has made me keenly aware of just how useless our Facilities team is. No boxes for files! UuuUUuugugughghghh.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Is that something they usually provide w/out being asked for it? In every company I’ve ever been in, it was the responsibility of the manager to ask for the boxes from facilities, because usually it’s the managers that are approving the move timeline / schedule.

    2. Kittymommy*

      Yeah our facilities department would not provide boxes either. It would be expected that everything is packed up and ready to go and then they would physically move the stuff. The office personnel would do everything prior, including getting their own boxes.

    3. SamSoo*

      I’ve always been provided with boxes. And if they aren’t going to, they should let you know so you can sort it ahead of time!

    4. JanetM*

      The last time we did a major office move, we had to buy boxes in advance from our Facilities department. We packed everything; they just put it on and off the truck (and drove it, of course!).

    5. OhBehave*

      Did you ask for boxes? Do they automatically provide boxes without requests? I’m not sure they would know how many are needed for each person. I think managers dropped the ball on this one.
      I hope the move goes smoothly.

  11. Not how you want to become a manager*

    I need some advice about handling an employee that wants to be fired!

    I’ve been put in an tough position. I was recently made the supervisor of a remote employee who, while a good person with great interpersonal skills, has never really thrived in his role since he was hired a year ago. Our boss has come close to firing him at times and put him on probation. The employee never got the guidance he should have received but also appears mostly checked out, and since he is remote, it’s been easy for him to do very little work. Now he is very stressed out as I presented a plan to get him on track and he feels like it’s a lot and too late.

    Yesterday he told me he wouldn’t quit (I’m assuming he meant without something else lined up- he has a large family to support), but that he was done trying to please our boss and wanted to be let go. The tasks and plan I gave him weren’t busy work, they were things I need to have happen for our small organization to run smoothly and we are in our peak season currently. I don’t have the power to hire and fire. Do I tell my boss what the employee told me? Try to get some work out of this employee as he figures out his next move? Convince my boss that he ought to be fired without telling him that’s what the employee explicitly said he wanted?

    1. Middle Manager*

      If the employee is outright refusing to work on the plan, I can’t see how you wouldn’t fire them. They are forfeiting their right to participate in the improvement plan. I would definitely tell your boss what they said and recommend immediate termination.

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly. Isn’t this a case of insubordination? In which case, termination is the response.

      2. valentine*

        You’ve gotta tell your boss. Tell him how things will fall apart if you don’t replace the guy or otherwise get someone in to do the work you need. I guess this guy wants unemployment and maybe your boss wouldn’t care to fight it, but it seems that would be an easy case for the company to win, especially if he put his wish in writing.

    2. TCO*

      It sounds like you’re clear that you’d like him to leave and that he doesn’t plan to do that voluntarily, so firing him is the right way to go. You can’t sit around forever hoping he’ll leave. I think it’s good to be candid with your boss about what he told you–that he’s very unhappy and not willing to try to improve, that he also has no immediate plans to leave voluntarily, and that he anticipates that this attitude will result in being fired.

      My guess is that he wants to be fired rather than quitting so that he can collect unemployment. If this route works out for him (in his perspective) and it kind of works as a quasi-severance, good for him. He got what he needed in order to leave the job one way or another. That’s not really your business to worry about. Your only concern should be whether you still want him working for you with his performance and attitude problems.

      1. Not how you want to become a manager*

        Thanks, this language and mindset are helpful. I think I’ve been overly focused on my concern for him as a person and that’s really not my role.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Not your role at all, but it’s nice that you were trying.

          I just never understand why employees like this don’t just go to their managers and say something like, “We both know this isn’t working, I’ve done X/Y/Z to try to fix it, and I’m still not cut out for this role. Would you give me X amount of months to job search and I’ll help document the role so that I can transition out and someone new can take over?” Reasonable managers would be sympathetic to that versus someone who’s just blatantly not trying and doesn’t care at all.

          1. Not how you want to become a manager*

            Such an act would display a level of competency this person does not possess!

            I’m kicking myself that I ignored a red flag in the hiring process doing the same thing- being accommodating to his circumstances at the time- that, looking back, was indicative of many problems since.

            1. OhBehave*

              Tell your boss!
              Boss is probably hoping employee will quit to avoid unemployment. Hopefully you can be rid of this person soon.

      2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        In our state, anyway, it doesn’t matter if it’s “fired” or “quit”. UI is determined based on what was going on at the time. Not being capable of performing a job to expectations might be “oops, they hired the wrong guy” or “the job has changed and oops, he wasn’t right for it any more” which would be eligible. Or this could be a “guy didn’t feel like doing the work being asked of him” which is less eligible.

        Either way, he’s out of the way so someone better can be hired.

      3. MoopySwarpet*

        Also, in some states, if you’re fired for cause, you might still receive UI, but it might not come out of the company’s UI account. I only have one data point in one state, but we terminated an employee for cause and they received UI. However, it doesn’t show in our history of claims. I think some states treat being fired for cause similarly to quitting depending on circumstances. I think in his case, they would look at the not working as basically quitting. Especially if you have his statement in writing.

    3. karou*

      Yes, tell your boss what he said. He’s not going to improve, so trying to get him back on track is a waste of your time and his continued poor performance might reflect badly on you as his manager. It’s time to cut your losses with this employee and find a better replacement.

    4. CM*

      It would be easy to ger him fired for cause, but if the idea is that you want it to be a lay-off, that’s more complicated, and he’s going about it wrong if he’s refusing to work. (FWIW, if you want to force your job to terminate you, you should keep doing your work but be super unpleasant and difficult about it).

      Anyway, you could try saying it sounds like it’s time for him to move on and you’d like to see if there’s a deal you can work out for him. But if you’re not his manager and can’t fire him, it might be out of your hands.

      1. Natalie*

        In plenty of states, getting fired for being a bad fit and kind of crap at your job will qualify you for unemployment just fine, so I wouldn’t necessarily rely on this to avoid a UI claim.

    5. hbc*

      I would definitely tell your boss, but I would also try to let this guy know that he’s shooting himself in the foot. Depending on your company benefits and local unemployment practices, it might be something like, “If you’re asking us to let you go, it sounds like you’re done here. I think it would be best if we could work out a timeline and an agreement that includes doing the work that we talked about. If you won’t do that work, yes, you’ll be fired, and we’ll tell future reference checkers that. We also won’t give the standard severance, and there’s a good chance you won’t get unemployment benefits when we have documentation that you simply stopped working. I think it’s in both of our interests to push through until you can find another job or we train up your replacement.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It sounds like he wants to be able to collect unemployment insurance and thinks if he quits he won’t get it but if he’s fired he will. By refusing to work, he is in effect quitting. If you want to help him out, you can (with permission from the boss) say that the company won’t contest his unemployment claim, but I would process this as he quit.

    7. OperaArt*

      Would it cost your company less to fire him and let him collect unemployment than it would to keep paying him to do nothing? Include in that cost the work others have to do to pick up his slack, and the amount of time and energy spent on managing him.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would go the painful route for this one. Painful for me and painful for him.

      Tell the boss exactly what he said. Do not mince words, don’t cover for him.
      Let him know that you have informed the boss of what he said to you. (This may help to cut back on the babble coming out of his mouth if he knows you will repeat it. Simply say, “It’s a rock and a hard place. I am accountable for getting this work done. If it’s not done, I have to explain why.”)
      Then let him know that since he has informed you that he will not be quitting any time soon, you have decided to implement timelines and routine check-ins as his outputs must be brought up to standards. I might even exaggerate a little and tell him that I have to do reports to the big boss about my check-ins with him. You can keep notes of your own and when you have a few missed meetings or whatever, you can go back to your boss with the results you are seeing.

      Tell him that his concern over caring for his large family is relevant. The company has a parallel issue, in that the company is trying to take care of all its employees with pay, insurance, PTO, etc. But if an employee is not productive it is not fair to ask the other employees to pick up the load. Since he is concerned about his large family, then surely he can understand why a big boss would be concerned about his group of people.

      1. Bilateralrope*

        I’d advise recording all interactions with him if it can be done in a legal, and company approved manner. Just in case anyone ever needs proof of what he said.

        He might be trying some “clever” plan that is blown apart by documenting exactly what happened. In which case, telling him about the recording will help.

    9. AnneNonyMouse*

      I inherited one of these when I was promoted at the same time we gained a new director (he was previously a peer slightly lower on the org chart). I explained the situation to the director, who does have that power, and we let him go with severance.

      I would not convince your boss that he needs to be fired unless his work product and attitude are (or become) such that with another employee you would want to let them go or put them on a PIP, but I do think you should talk to your boss about the situation and see what they say.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well he straight up said he wasn’t leaving on his own and he’s also not going to actively try to do his job.

      So the only option is to tell your boss and let him get fired. Otherwise you’re paying this guy for the nothing he brings to your organization, nobody should be kept on who is responding in that way to your request for improvement.

      He wants to be fired because honestly in this situation, he will probably be granted unemployment benefits since he’s done nothing egregious and a lot of places will allow you to collect if you are let go for performance standard issues.

      He’s not going to look for a new job, he’s fine not working and phoning it [barely!] and getting a paycheck. He’s in a great position personally, so cut that dead weight loose. Tell your boss everything. Be loyal to the boss and the company, this person isn’t a friend or even a person you really want in your network, take care of your own interests over his, he’s a grown person who can go find himself a new job since this one isn’t what he’s good at.

    11. tiasp*

      What does “trying to please our boss” mean? He’s doing NOTHING or he’s still doing his usual amount of work, but it’s just sub par?

  12. Bee's Knees*

    TLDR: as requested last week, the story of how I got proposed to at work, by someone who should not have proposed to me.

    The last couple of weeks have been so, so crazy friends. This actually happened a couple of days after the events that led me to talk to myself in food city, but I’m just now getting a chance to tell y’all about it. Strap in.

    Let me start at the beginning. My boss, Marvin, was out of town that week. So I was handling the cookout all on my own, which was fine. We’d planned for it. At several points in the week, I did get a profound sense that oh, this must be what it feels like to have children. I about told several people to go outside and get me a switch. (For those not from the South, that means a small branch to spank with.)

    I wanted to do something nice for Department B, because by that time they’d been working almost a month without a day off. They’d cycled through the local restaurant offerings, and I thought about what is easily scale-able for a bunch of people, and volunteered myself to make bacon and pancakes. I’ve done it for a crowd before, but never by myself. How hard could it be?

    Well. So I call up the grocery store the day before and warn them that I’m coming. I then proceed to purchase 100 lbs. of bacon. (That’s 45.3 kg for my non American friends.) Its a lot. The checkout guy’s face when I showed up with an entire buggy of bacon was something.

    So anyway, I get everything back to work, go to dinner, and decide that I don’t have enough time between 10 p.m. and 1 a.m. to take a nap. I head into work at one and get started.

    This is the part where you will know if you know me in real life, because I have told this part of the story to many people. Everything on the internet said you could cook a pan of bacon for 15 to 20 minutes at 400 degrees (204 C) and it would be done. Well. The oven in the breakroom doesn’t work that way. I had to crank it up to 550 degrees, and it still took 45 minutes to get one pan of bacon done. That’s not a lot, especially when you’re feeding about 20 people a round. I also had trouble getting the griddles for the pancakes to stay on, because I kept tripping the power strip. I finally just pushed the meal back by an hour and a half, because I wanted it to be ready. I will not do that by myself again.

    Anyway, at this point it’s like 4 a.m. I do not have makeup on, and I have been awake for about 20 hours. One of the supervisors asked me, completely serious, if I had been out in the sun. No, sir, that’s just what my face looks like. Also, I’ve been running around for three hours like a chicken with my head cut off.

    That meal went more or less ok, as did the others that followed. After the somewhat disastrous first attempt, I took the rest of the bacon home to cook. It worked much better, even if the house did smell like bacon grease for two solid weeks.

    However. I do have some complaints about the way in which these men complimented me. Did they say, “Hey Bees, this is good, thank you.” Well, some of them did. But I had not one, not two, not three, but FOUR SEPARATE PEOPLE over the three meals tell me that my cooking would make me good wife material. Thank you? If they thought I was offended by this, they would be horrified, but it’s offensive. Why can’t they just say thank you? If I was a man, nothing would be said about my marriageability based on cooking. It would just be, hey man, this is good. Sometimes, working in a male dominated industry is terrible.

    And now, what everyone really wanted to hear about. One of the supervisors (!!!) told me that if the food was any good, he’d have to hurry his divorce along so he could marry me instead. He is easily twice my age, and a very, very strange man. Not sure on what world he thought it would be ok to say that to someone, especially someone my age. I think at that point (when I had also been awake for probably 30 hours) my brain just shorted out.

    No thank you. I shudder just thinking about it. No. Just no.

    *Walks out of the room, then comes back wagging finger*
    And another thing!

    I have been proposed to over food before, but it was for my triple chocolate cupcakes, from someone roughly my age, and those deserved it. Bacon and pancake mix (from a box) most certainly did not rise to that level.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      well, all I can say is OMG, pancakes and bacon for one million colleagues! you are a hero.

      And I hope you never attempt THAT again. :)

      1. Emily S.*

        +1
        I’m amazed that you even tried to pull that meal off.

        But also, yes, I truly hope you don’t do anything like that again. Because no, it isn’t worth it.

        But if you wanted to do something similar, have you seen the recipes for the baked French toast casseroles that you can batch and do in big trays? Something like that that could be made well in advance, and kept on warmer plate trays (got any of those? They’re a lifesaver for work parties! My office has two). Or something like a strata could be an option, those are often served at room temperature and can be delicious, with fun fillings like chopped bacon, veggies, whatever.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Normally I just order, and there are a couple of local restaurants who are sweet enough to bring us stuff in the middle of the night. We had run out of options though, and this didn’t seem like it was going to be that hard.

      2. Hamburke*

        I think your oven temp was off bc I cook bacon like this every weekend – usually 2#s so I can have bacon on my sandwiches for the week. It takes about 14 minutes for us to get it done how we like it.

        That said, nice job on a meal for 20 people and why do people think that every woman aspires to be a wife?

    2. Clisby*

      ” If I was a man, nothing would be said about my marriageability based on cooking. ”

      Oh, I can easily imagine the “How come no woman has snapped you up yet?” comments.

      1. Sophie Hatter*

        This is true. I think, however, people who make comments like this are sort of in awe of men cooking, like it is a rare thing, where comments about a woman being a good cook are more like “You’re good at this thing women are supposed to be good at/necessary for wives to be good at, I deem you acceptable for a potential wife.” For wives it’s necessary to learn to cook; for husbands it’s a surprise bonus if they do.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        If it had been a social setting, it wouldn’t have irked me nearly so much. I’m twenty years younger (or more) than most of my coworkers, and a girl to boot. It’s hard for them to take me seriously on the best days, and I want them to value me for my actual job, not because I can or can’t cook.

    3. 867-5309*

      Next time someone says, “You’d make good wife material,” I’m replying with: “Ah yes, my cooking is fabulous but my habit of cutting off penises makes me a less than ideal partner.”

      1. Camellia*

        Best said when you are holding a knife! You are cooking, so of course you would have a PERFECTLY good reason for having a knife handy, right? [cue innocent look on face]

      2. KAG*

        Dexterous and edgy knife work. Conclusively resolving interpersonal conflicts.

        Specializing in domestic affairs

        1. Auntie Social*

          “You HAVE to cut it off an inch at a time—-otherwise, how will they learn??” would be a perfect motto.

    4. Mrs_helm*

      His cooking (perfect stuffed shells from scratch, no recipe) is one of the reasons I married my husband. And I tell people that all the time. He seems proud of it. Should I stop? (Some of the other reasons are NSFW or, 25 yrs later, no longer valid…for either of us.)

      1. 867-5309*

        I think it’s that women often get regulated to compliments for our domestic skills and it’s annoying, especially from coworkers. :) But in this case, if you wanted to share your husband’s recipe that would be okay.

      2. The Other Dawn*

        If I ever got divorced I’d definitely be searching out a guy who cooks and wouldn’t be ashamed of it at all. (Obviously there would need to be other factors involved, but yeah, if anything even happened to my husband, I want the next guy to be someone who’s willing to cook more than hot dogs just because I’m so lazy about cooking.)

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For what it’s worth, I prefer bacon to chocolate, *AND* I frequently ask my husband if he’ll marry me after he makes me a particularly tasty dinner. (He works in tech now, but he grew up in a restaurant family and worked as a chef to pay for his engineering degree.)
      But I wouldn’t ask anyone at the office that!

    6. Aquawoman*

      I personally HATE the presumptive “I’d date/marry you ….” comments because, hi, autonomous being here with complete veto power over whom I date/marry.

    7. Hermione Stranger*

      “It’s sure a relief to hear that! I was worried the arsenic would put men off.”

    8. Hmm*

      This is a fun story, but I wouldn’t call it getting proposed to.
      He did not actually ask you to marry him.

    9. rainbow*

      Ahh I think I can clarify things here. Saying something like “he’d have to hurry his divorce along so he could marry me instead” is a joke. He wasn’t actually proposing. It’s sort of just like a folksy way of expressing how much he liked your cooking.

      No worries, there are lots of common sayings I hadn’t heard of too!

      1. Baru Cormorant*

        Yeah I’m a little confused by this story. I came in expecting sexual harassment, and instead read about a poorly-planned meal that ended up going well despite the chaos, with some awkward but well-meant compliments at the end.

        It’s definitely awkward, but it’s not a real marriage proposal, and a man would definitely have been told the same comments (if not more patronizing, like “good for you! wow I’m impressed with your basic life skills!”).

        Maybe next time just buy and bring in food for everyone!

  13. curious question*

    I need to know how to shut down snarky remarks about another coworker. This all sounds so high school when describing the situation.

    I work for a company that is truly like a family. Turn over is few and far as the owners treat everyone with respect and understands there is life outside the office. There are 10 of us in total including the owner.

    Every quarter during the work day we take a “fun day” at work. Everyone is given a +4 to invite friends and family. We usually do something on a Thursday. It’s a fun activity like go bowling, head out to eat a mid afternoon lunch, head home and getting a long weekend with Thursday and Friday being a paid as normal work days.

    Side note to my story…. My coworker Sue is one the most amazing team players there is. Without getting into the “mombie at work/ working parents” debate, Sue does need flexablity sometimes (not all the time) for her family needs but never expects anyone to cover for her. Sue is the first to volunteer, puts in extra hours for when she does need to adjust her schedule, comes in early/ stays late etc. Sue has said she appreciates that Owner understands her situation but wants to hold her own, and she does.

    Over the summer on our fun day we went to a local amusement park. We had early access passes and were able to get in around 8 and met up for lunch at 3. Sue brought her husband and 5 year old daughter. Daughter started getting a bit antsy half way through the meal. Sue’s daughter has always been well behaved so we knew she must have been exhausted to act out. First peep out of daughter, Sue took her outside to calm down… on the way outside full meltdown occurred. Getting from the table to outside was literally 15 seconds.

    Daughter calmed down a few minutes later. Husband went to check on them. Sue came back and spoke to the boss that they were going to call it a day. Sue was clearly embarrassed but the owner was more concerned that everyone was ok. Sue tried to pay for a round of drinks and wanted to leave additional tip for the service staff as an apology but owner wouldn’t have it; the day was on him. A now calm but very tired Daughter came in with Husband to apologize and thank Owner for a fun day. Owner even had their food boxed up so they could enjoy it at home. Daughter got a hi-five-goodbye from Owner.

    Ever since then our coworker Rachel keeps making these snarky comments about Sue/ Sue’s family. Rachel is in her early 30s; childfree by choice (no judgement, kids are not for everyone). She is the newest member of the team having been here about 4 months. Rachel is likeable and has a very bubbly personality so her behavior is a bit shocking. Rachel keeps going on and on about how such a young child should never come to these events; none of the other children misbehaved; how Sue needs to rearrange her hours; Sue can’t control her child, etc.

    I’m a little dumbfounded by Rachel’s actions. What was Sue supposed to do? This was a family/ work fun day. I thought as a parent Sue handled things properly. Rachel is going on and on complaining, looking for sympathy or someone to agree with her…. no one is budging. This was literally a 15 second issue that Sue promptly took care of. The managers and Owner don’t see Rachel on a day to day basis to see that this is happening. I’m not even sure if anyone else is on the receiving end of the complaints. I tried being indirect… Gee we were all tuckered out at the end of the day. What can I say the next time she comes to me? How do I handle this?

    1. ThatGirl*

      “Rachel, it was no big deal, Sue handled it as well as she could have, please stop complaining.”

      Just be direct. There’s no use hinting around.

      1. valentine*

        I would sing Sue’s praises, doubling down every time Rachel brings it up. I might go as far as to call her a living saint or to say she should run for queen of the planet. Rachel would get my best hyperbole because she is apparently unable to see: Sue sounds like a dream, as does her kid, who was perfectly polite, and amusement parks target families, so, if anything, people who think kids should be cloistered away or “controlled” are the ones who are massively out of step there. The company invited families. If they wanted to set an age limit, they could, and I bet you have at least one colleague who pitches bigger fits over smaller stuff than this five-year-old did, yet Rachel doesn’t think they need controlling or other quarantining.

        1. Armchair Expert*

          Right? I think I’m a good parent and my kids are often complimented on their behaviour, but when I got to the tired, over-stimulated five year old coming back in to apologise to the owner and thank them for the day I was like – this woman is a literal saint among parents.

    2. Myrin*

      Yeah, Rachel is being obnoxious about a pretty mundane issue. Do you think a simple “I think Sue handled it really well/perfectly/calmly/professionally, but I also don’t think it was a big deal in general.” would be enough to shut her up?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That would be my script. I’d also be tempted to tell Rachel to stop being a shit-stirer at a job she’s been in for less than five minutes. People like her really irk my soul.

      2. Triumphant Fox*

        She might also just want something to talk about and this incident is something everyone can reference. I know that I’ve been around people who will just not let something go, not because it’s particularly interesting or because they really care about Sue’s parenting strategies but because it’s something they can gossip about and feel powerful.
        “We’ve heard your opinion on Sue and her parenting from the one incident. I didn’t see anything wrong with how she handled it and children that young are welcome for family fun days. Let’s move on.”

    3. Peaches*

      If she brings in up again, I would say something along the lines of, “It was a family fun day. Why WOULDN’T Sue bring her daughter?” That way, she’ll know how ridiculous her complaints are. Also, if you’re comfortable saying so, you could add, “I don’t think it’s fair to judge Sue’s child’s behavior as a non-parent.”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Leave the non-parent part off – I don’t have kids either, but I can tell when they’re acting a plum fool in public. That being said, it doesn’t sound like Sue’s daughter’s behavior was over the top or any way out of the norm for a five-year-old (my niece is the same age and she too has these occasional meltdowns), so you could say, “Sue’s daughter was being five – don’t badmouth her or Sue’s parenting when you know nothing about either.”

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        I think the first sentence is perfect, but please don’t say that last line! Just being a non-parent doesn’t make you completely clueless about all things kids. I think to say “I don’t think it’s fair to judge Sue’s child’s behavior.” would be fine, but being a parent does not give a person special judging powers.

        I am childfree and prefer kids in small doses. I think Sue handled the situation perfectly and probably even better/quicker than I would feel necessary. Rachel needs to get over it.

        1. Holly*

          I agree – it also gives license to Rachel complain that she is the victim here as the non-parent, when it really has nothing to do with that.

    4. Pontoon Pirate*

      “Wow. Well, I don’t agree with that perspective at all. You’ve brought it up multiple times so it must be weighing on you; I hope you can find a way to make peace with it. Now, about those reports…”

    5. Parenthetically*

      Wow. My first thought is the Mean Girls, “Why are you so obsessed with (this five-year-old)?” Lol. But I might try something along those lines, like, “Huh, are you still thinking about a fifteen-second event that happened X number of days ago? For such a little thing, it’s sure taking up a lot of your mental bandwidth.”

      But it’s super crappy of her to keep bringing it up, especially given how absolutely normal it is for kids to melt down after many, many hours of overstimulation — and a 3pm lunch, too? Even considering snacks, she was probably incredibly hungry! And it seems like Sue handled it exactly as she should have. If Rachel keeps pushing back, I’d just say as firmly and factually as possible, “It’s normal for small children to have times like that, and Sue handled it perfectly. It should not have an effect on her professional relationships. I’m not up for hearing any more of this kind of disparaging commentary about her. It’s unprofessional.”

    6. MOAS*

      eww Rachel is mean.
      How are the other people around Rachel’s comments?
      Does Sue hear these comments?
      Are you in a position to tell her to (nicely) stfu?

      We joke around a LOT in my office, and some of our jokes can be mean, inappropriate etc. But no one would EVER say “wow your child is bad/uncontrollable”. That’s a level of nasty that’s…whoa.

      1. curious question*

        My office is in somewhat of a quieter area of the building so I don’t see Rachel interacting with others unless it’s in the breakroom. I think the semi privacy of my office is why Rachel “complained” to me. I’m friendly with Sue but outside of company happy hours or the occassional Saturday coffee, we’re not close friends. I would think though that we are close enough that if Sue was upset she would have come to me. Rachel and I are on the same level so I have no authority to tell her she is overstepping.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Even if you’re at the same level, you CAN say you don’t want to hear it anymore, and that you think Sue & husband are doing a good job of consistent parenting.

        2. Observer*

          You can still say something to her. Not as an authority figure, just as another person who just doesn’t understand why she would be so bent out of shape over a really, really minor incident.

        3. Lilysparrow*

          You absolutely can tell a peer that they are being rude. This isn’t Rachel’s work, where you don’t have standing to correct the way she does it. It’s personal gossip, and you don’t have to sit there and enable or validate her by listening to it.

    7. mf*

      Yikes. I get why Rachel feels the way she does about Sue’s kid at a work event, but considering family/children were explicitly invited, she needs to keep those feelings to herself.

      Next time Rachel brings it up, I would look her in the eye and say point blank, “You’ve made your feelings about Sue and her kid abundantly clear. None of us agree with you. Let’s not talk about this again.”

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Perfect! This is a great formula for handling so many office conflicts.

        1) Acknowledge their feelings.
        2) Give them the current status.
        3) Tell them what they need to do going forward.

    8. Professional Pup*

      Well, for starters, it’s a really good indication that when Rachel was looking around trying to get people to join her in complaining, nobody took the bait.

      My go-to any time someone says something I don’t want to engage with at work or in a professional context is “Huh.” — completely disinterested and disengaged, and doesn’t give the offender any positive or negative feedback (because they’ll feed on both). Then I bring up something completely unrelated and steer the conversation elsewhere. I’ve also seen it recommended here to just say “Wow,” with a completely neutral tone and move on.

      When it becomes repeated behavior is where it gets tricky. Since you say it’s a small family company, I’m guessing the lines of hierarchy between employees are somewhat blurry, but I assume Rachel isn’t your superior in any way? If you start hearing more frequent complaints from her, trying to lure you in to complain with her, you could say something like “I thought Susan handled it well,” and like before, redirect the conversation. Then “I don’t think this merits any more discussion, let’s drop it” if she persists. Past that point, I’d start to get someone else higher up involved and make it clear that Rachel’s complaining is distracting you from work (of course, it’s likely bothering you in many other ways, but tying it to productivity first can be helpful).

      1. Auntie Social*

        “Rachel, I have listened to your many complaints and unkind remarks about Sue. And I disagree, I think Sue handled things quite well. But what I will not tolerate is your obvious gender bias. You don’t have to be a man to discriminate against women. So either shut your comments down or I go to HR and to your boss. We don’t snipe at other women here at Acme Drains, we support them.”

        You ever notice how everyone is an expert until they have kids of their own??

    9. ContentWrangler*

      Indirect isn’t working and a complainer can often hear that as subtle agreement. You have to be direct and shut it down. Focus on how much you like and appreciate Sue if you get nervous about confrontation. You don’t have to be rude to Rachel, just the next time she starts up about Sue’s “bad parenting and child” just say – “I don’t see it that way at all. This was not a big deal and it’s strange that you keep bringing it up.”

    10. hbc*

      Rachel is kind of begging for over the top agreement. “I KNOW, RIGHT?! I’ve never heard anything as crazy as a five year old not keeping completely calm after seven hours running around a park in the hot sun. I bet that little demon doesn’t always eat her vegetables too.”

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Seven hours runner ng around in hot sun, and not getting lunch until 3 pm.

        You better believe I’d have a meltdown myself if I didn’t get lunch until 3.

    11. curious question*

      Hey everyone thanks for your replies. To answer some questions/ statements people have made. Yes Lines are blurry but in a professional way. You know the who’s boss but it’s not uncommon for the boss to go out of the way to make this a family like atmosphere. The bosses realize they can’t compete in certain ways with large corporations and definitely do all they can to compensate in other ways, such as our family fun day.

      I am equal to Rachel job wise .

      Sue’s daughter is the type of child that could sit in a 5 star resturaunt and whose table manners would put any adult to shame; she is just adorable, polite, charming, well behaved little girl. I just think the day was a lot for her.

      Someone mentioned 3pm was a late lunch – the boss pays for park admission and the late lunch – anything inbetween for souvenirs and extra food are up to each person individually.

      I guess I was just surprised by the whole situation. Sue’s child will not be the first or last to have a rough day at Company Fun Day. No one has ever complained before. I’ve never encountered Rachel’s opinion before; the first time this happened I honestly thought this was a practical joke or something. I honestly didn’t think the situation was a big deal. To each their own.

      Everyone has given me some great ideas on how to reply to Rachel, not challenge or “stick it to Rachel”, keep the work environment fun, etc. I am hoping this is just a case of Rachel complaining in an attempt to “be popluar”, in other words maybe a rookie mistake not understanding the office culture.

      1. Michelle*

        I think you can politely respond to any other comments from Rachel with the examples in the replies. I think if you are clear that you don’t agree and won’t engage in gossiping about it, she’ll either stop or find another audience. If she keeps on with the comments, Sue will find out. Sue sounds like a lovely person, but when you start talking smack about someone’s child, Momma Bear might make an appearance and Rachel definitely doesn’t want to deal with that.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Ahh. This is good context here.

        “Rachel, kids have meltdowns from time to time, that is what they do. Once in a while we have this happen on our family fun day. I hope you can be okay with it as it really is not that big a deal, no one cares and we all like working here. I hope you like it here also.”

        What I really want to say:
        “Rachel, the kid’s meltdown was a few minutes. Your meltdown has be DAYS. I will take the kid’s meltdown over yours anytime.”

      3. OhBehave*

        I’m glad to know other coworkers are not joining in on bashing Sue! If Rachel is still harping on thus she must not get that no one sides with her. Duh
        You can absolutely derail her without being her boss. You are her peer. This needs to stop now.

      4. Crackles*

        “Sue’s daughter is the type of child that could sit in a 5 star restaurant and whose table manners would put any adult to shame; she is just adorable, polite, charming, well behaved little girl. I just think the day was a lot for her.” <<<< This is exactly what you should say next time Rachel complains.

    12. PantaloonsOnFire*

      “This company has a culture that is very supportive of working parents and their families. If you can’t put up with kids acting like kids on family day, this might not be the company for you.”

    13. Ginger Baker*

      If Rachel is new, does that mean this is her first Quarterly Fun Day? That’s what it sounds like to me – that she thinks she can get traction on her views because she does not realize that she is completely out of step with the work culture on these outings. I agree with suggestions of others to something like “Wow, the rest of us have already moved on from this and you seem to be unable to let go. Let’s drop this topic now, thanks. [subject change].” You definitely want to shut this down, especially as if you don’t it will only likely be worse at the next Quarterly Fun Day – or worse, change the tone so much that Sue will not feel comfortable attending. (And personally, I think if you’re Shut This Down comments don’t do the trick, at the small size company you are at, it’s is absolutely worth flagging this to the owner.)

      1. curious question*

        Yes this was Rachel’s First Quarterly Fun Day. Sue and I are meeting for coffee this weekend so I think I will take the opportunity to casually give her a heads up. When Rachel brings it up again, I will defitely use some of the scripts mentioned above. I’m not good with this type of confrontation but having everyone already spelt out what I am thinking I think I have some good ways to respond with out overstepping any bounds. While I think Rachel was annoyed with the meltdown, I do think this was just her way of trying to fit in.

        1. Parenthetically*

          “I think I will take the opportunity to casually give her a heads up”

          Ooh, no, don’t do this. If Rachel and Sue’s professional relationship is currently fine, don’t poison the well. Tell Rachel what needs to be said, but don’t pass on office gossip to the person being gossiped about by one annoying person.

          1. curious question*

            I see your point, but don’t you think Sue should know someone is gossiping about her?

            1. Parenthetically*

              No. It’s still gossip. What purpose would telling Sue serve, except to poison their relationship?

              Rachel can learn from this, both to shut up about parenting when she isn’t a parent herself, and to knock off gossip. That’s a good outcome; in fact, it’s the best possible outcome. What good, positive, professional-relationship-conducive outcome comes from petty gossip being passed on to her?

            2. Parcae*

              Nope, nope, absolutely not. That’s not actionable for Sue, and only serves to make her feel bad. Don’t feed the gossip; let it die a well-deserved death.

            3. curious question*

              point taken. I was trying to do the right thing by Sue but it sounds like telling her would just complicate things unnecessarily.

            4. Ann Perkins*

              Speaking as somebody whose toddler had a full-on meltdown at our last office family event… please don’t say anything to her about it. No good would come of that.

            5. ECHM*

              A longtime friend was complaining to me about her mother-in-law. Then, just so I could feel how she felt, she told me a complaint she’d heard her mother-in-law had made about me. That pretty much ended our friendship.

              1. Parenthetically*

                Oof. Yeah, my father-in-law “reported” to me (venting) something that my sister-in-law said that was SUPER hurtful, and it’s taken a ton of effort for me to get over it. There was absolutely nothing positive to be gotten from doing that.

              2. Ewpp*

                My friend in your position was and still is friends with my ex mother in law. Mil completely sought to ruin me and apparently my “friend” didn’t think she talked trash about her. Ha ha ha
                When a mother in law is disparaging you, a person can feel completely isolated from people they know, as mother in law knows many if not most of the same people, horrible people take any measures they determine necessary, and your ‘friends’ cant relate at all . or they dismiss the severeness of your mother in laws actions because maybe she’s looking out for her son. Even though he is an adult?
                Long rant, but I am sadly not friends with above friend. But I don’t only blame her. Maybe in an effort to get someone on her side, your friend, who saw herself being dragged into a psych. Battle her mother in law had started waging became desperate.
                Many people who had a mother in law figure despise them, years later after leaving the ‘ man child’s struggle for people to truly understand them. People have the training to take on a person who lost a spouse but not ones who battled a mean mother in law and gave up.

            6. Librarian of SHIELD*

              Honesty? At this point, telling Sue is kind of the equivalent of middle school kids saying “Rachel totally hates you” at the lunch table. Sue’s probably not going to go to Rachel and say “How come you’re being such a jerk to me behind my back?” She’s just going to be hurt and sad, and it’s going to make things really uncomfortable anytime she has to ask Rachel for help with something.

              If you want to be truly kind and helpful and compassionate in this situation, you talk to Rachel, not Sue. Very kindly pull her into your office and say you’re uncomfortable with how she’s been talking about Sue and Sue’s family, and that if Rachel wants to form strong working relationships, she needs to speak respectfully both to and about her coworkers. All of the negativity she’s been expressing needs to be saved for conversations with her non-work friends.

              I know that’s hard and I know you said you don’t like conflict, but it’s truly the kindest thing you could do for both Rachel and Sue.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                Very kindly pull her into your office and say you’re uncomfortable with how she’s been talking about Sue and Sue’s family, and that if Rachel wants to form strong working relationships, she needs to speak respectfully both to and about her coworkers. All of the negativity she’s been expressing needs to be saved for conversations with her non-work friends.

                This is very good advice.

                1. tamarack and fireweed*

                  Yes. And it can be integrated with some of the other scripts. The “5 year olds sometimes have meltdowns. It was was no-big-deal and all of 15 seconds” and “Frankly, at this point your repeated harping reflects badly mostly on you.”

            7. Mel*

              As someone who has apologized for airing grievances around the regular presence of a fellow grad student’s children, I’d recommend holding off unless Rachel continues to complain. I was called out on my complaint, and brought in some cupcakes for the student and her kids. She had no idea I had even said anything (even though there was a department-wide email about not posting about our colleagues online). I think it worked out best that I was the one to bring it to her attention, as I can easily see someone else telling her would have really harmed our office relationship.

            8. Observer*

              I don’t think there is any use in letting her know. It’s not like there is anything Sue can do about this.

            9. Not So NewReader*

              Absolutely not.
              What is Sue going to do? Clearly Rachel makes sure Sue does not hear it.

              No, it’s up to the person hearing the gossip to stop the gossip. This is more like trouble making, trying to rally the troops against Sue.

        2. Jedi Squirrel*

          Don’t say anything to Sue. Why? Because this is not Sue’s problem. Sue handled everything in a perfectly acceptable manner. This is entirely Rachel’s problem. Don’t put this on Sue’s shoulders.

    14. Lilysparrow*

      Just tell her she’s being really rude, doesn’t know what she’s talking about, and you don’t want to hear it anymore.

      You don’t have to spare her poor widdy feelings when she is working so hard to be nasty about this. I wouldn’t lead with being this direct, but you already tried deflection and indirection.

      It’s not working. Tell her to knock it off or take it elsewhere.

    15. smoke tree*

      I feel like Rachel must have very little exposure to children if she was this taken aback. I don’t spend a lot of time with kids myself, but I would not be surprised to see a five year old get overwhelmed and exhausted at an amusement park, and I really don’t see how Sue could have handled the situation any better. I wonder if Rachel has a bit of a Thing about kids generally because her reaction is so over the top.

      1. curious question*

        As I said Rachel is childfree by choice (again no judgement). She has mentioned nieces and nephews but I’m not sure geographically or emotionally how close they are. I think Sue definitely enjoys the childfree lifestyle and standard of living she has; she comes back with envious tales of taking off for the weekend to an exotic location or some incredible adventure mountain climbing. Common sense though that everyone, adults included, are going to be tired after a day at an amusement park. No one lifestyle is correct. I guess in this case it’s a combination of Rachel possible not being around kids often and trying to fit in.

        I do want to emphasize to everyone that Rachel isn’t a mean person, her personality fits in great with everyone… this is just one scenario that seems a bit off.

        1. as a mom and a coworker*

          wrong. Rachel isn’t a mean person TO YOU. But given the opportunity to be mean about a 5 year old, she is taking it and running with it. Maybe she doesn’t realize that this is how she’s coming across, but that’s what’s happening.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            + 1

            She’s trash talking both a kid and a good coworker behind their backs – she’s a snake in the grass, and I’d personally be wary of her. If she’s doing this to one person, believe me, she’s shit talking all of you to each other. (And who comes into a new office and does this?)

            1. Ewpp*

              That seems to take the situation so far. Adults can have bad moments also, obviously. A long day at a hot crowded park can affect everyone. Childless doesn’t mean evil. Maybe she doesnt want to be around children the whole day. That’s why company get togethers like this can be inconvenient. Bring your kid to a hot, crowded park for the day they said. Some people would not. Responding to the co worker could be done thoughtfully.

        2. Parenthetically*

          “Rachel isn’t a mean person, her personality fits in great with everyone”

          Ehhhh… nice people who are trying to fit in generally don’t sh*t-talk coworkers and their children in a single breath. I’m hopeful that this is just a newbie misstep where she’s badly misreading the room, and a firm insistence that she course-correct is all it takes for her to sort herself out, but I’d honestly be a bit wary of her going forward.

      2. OhBehave*

        Heck, I get overwhelmed and exhausted at amusement parks! This sounded like a very long day for all.

    16. Interplanet Janet*

      Next time she brings it up: “You know, Sue has been a valuable contributor here longer than you’ve even been around. Obviously you’re entitled to your feelings about her, but I don’t share them. Let’s agree to disagree and not discuss it any more.”

      And then every single time after that: “I disagree. Please stop bringing it up.”

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          If it’s not too much bother, could you drop us an update after you handle this? I’m interested in seeing how Rachel reacts. I get the feeling that she’s trying to find a way to bond with people, you know the way people will latch onto one particular topic that they know you share and then bludgeon it to death, so I’d enjoy an update if you have the time.

    17. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

      “Rachel, do us all a favor: Call up your Mom and ask her about the most embarrassing you did in public as a child. Cause I bet it was way worse than 15 seconds of meltdown.”

      Or, “Rachel, the child’s meltdown bothered me for 15 seconds. You, on the other hand, have been getting on my nerves about it for a month. Shut up already. And have a little compassion.”

      Or, “Rachel, nobody else even cares. Sue does an awesome job, so mind your own business.”

      Ok, maybe don’t say those. But a little stinkeye might be appropriate.

      1. Aquawoman*

        I said the equivalent of the “you’ve been getting on my nerves for a month” thing once when a co-worker complained in ugly terms about a baby as we were boarding a plane. I told him that so far, the baby was behaving better than he was.

      2. Parenthetically*

        I am cracking up about that first one. It’s so good. (And honestly it’s practical as well — said in a lighthearted way rather than a pointed way, “Lol, girl, come on. Go home tonight and call your mom and ask her if you ever had public meltdowns after long day. Now about those TPS reports…”)

    18. as a mom and a coworker*

      Rachel is an asshole, and has officially earned a “you are doing a worse job controlling your mouth than Sue’s kid did controlling her meltdown and she is literally a child so what is your excuse” at this point. Not saying that’s a good option at work but…

    19. KR*

      I think you can say, “I think Daughter had a long day and Sue handled things wonderfully. This isn’t a big issue Rachel.” And then refuse to engage. Let Rachel dig her own grave imo

    20. curious question*

      Hey everyone, it’s me again OP for this open thread post. I said this as an answer to someone’s statement but wanted to put it where it was not burried in all the responses…

      I do want to emphasize to everyone that Rachel isn’t a mean person, her personality fits in great with everyone… this is just one scenario that seems a bit off.

      1. Observer*

        It’s more than a bit off. Rachel may not be a mean person, but she IS being very mean. If she really is a nice person, it would be a good thing to tell her that what she is doing IS in fact very mean and she needs to cut it out.

        1. curious question*

          point taken. I have never seen this side of Rachel so I am trying to giver her the benefit of the doubt

          1. Mellow*

            Respectfully, it seems you are focused on this way too much (tell Sue? No WAY), and perhaps overthinking things a bit.

            Rachel: “Can you believe Sue’s daughter…?!”

            You: “I’m not sure what you mean. Sue’s daughter is only 5 years old; yes, she got a bit fussy, but Sue took care of things very quickly, and she and her husband took their daughter home so she could take a nap. That’s all there is to it, so I’m not sure why you keep bringing up this topic.”

            Rachel: “Well, okay, but can you believe how Sue [whine whine whine]…”

            You: “We will will have to agree to disagree, and I’d rather not discuss this anymore.”

            Rachel: “But Sue [yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum…]”

            You: Walk away without a word.

            Not easy, and awkward, but it gets the message across. Don’t fall into the trap of trying to play cruise director. Quickly and quietly defend Sue and move on.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        If you do talk to Rachel, point that out. “You’re not a mean person, Rachel, that’s why this gossiping you keep doing seems so out of character.”

        1. CMart*

          Rachel may very well not realize how mean she’s being by making this commentary/harping on this. If most/all of her friends don’t have kids and especially if her social circles (whether in person or online) tend to be of the “lol kids are the wooooooorst” Childfree (TM) types then she really might not consider that sniping about children can be/is really hurtful.

          “Wow what a meltdown, kids can suck, Sue should control her spawn amirite?” is a very common kind of situational chitchat for some people the same way “God, traffic was awful why do all these douches refuse to use turn signals? People in this town are idiots” can be.

          So, to give her the benefit of the doubt that she is in fact a nice person who probably wouldn’t mean to say hurtful things, you give her the out. “You’re usually so nice and this line of snark is actually really mean, what’s up?”

          It’ll give her a chance to backpedal (“oh I’m just joking, 5 Year Old was really cute and I liked her, of course Sue is a great colleague/mom”) and hopefully never speak of it again.

          1. Baru Cormorant*

            This is a really good point. I think Rachel was seeking to commiserate the way she does with other Proudly Child-free people, not realizing how rude she is being. I think calling out the behavior as mean and saying it’s out of character for her is a great way to make her think but also let her save face and backpedal.

      3. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, she is a mean person. She is a gossip, and she’s going around the office trying to recruit people to join her in trash talking a coworker based on a personal, irrational grudge.

        She may be friendly or even charming in many other ways, but don’t confuse personality with character.

        Personality is the impression you give other people. Character is the choices you make over time.

        Rachel is putting concerted, sustained effort into her choice to be mean about a coworker and a little kid.

        This is her character. Ignore this knowledge at your own risk.

    21. Curmudgeon in California*

      Rachel needs to grow up.

      I am childfree. I hate it when kids misbehave and the parents don’t do anything.

      But that’s not what happened here. Kid started acting out because of being tired. Susan, the parent, appropriately took the kid out of the area, kid went full meltdown in the process, but still got taken out.

      I would have thanked Susan for managing her daughter’s behavior appropriately, including letting the kid come in and apologize.

      Rachel needs to realize that part of being childfree is encouraging and supporting parents who raise their children well. If she can’t do that, she needs to just shut up.

      1. Mellow*

        I’m childfree, by choice, but I have to say, I don’t feel particularly responsible to parents to encourage and support them.

        What I do feel responsible to is to not judge them.

    22. OrigCassandra*

      Hi hi hello, also a childfree person, here to say that being childfree excuses Rachel’s treatment of Sue in exactly no way at all.

      Plenty of good ideas here; I’d be inclined to grey-rock it with “So you said, Rachel,” but honestly one of the more direct approaches already recommended probably should happen first.

    23. Anon Librarian*

      She might just be inexperienced with young children. I have met people – adults – who are unaware of how young children often act because they don’t have any of their own, haven’t worked with kids, didn’t have younger family members . . . or the kids they do have experience with were different from most kids. Or they have experience, but they’ve forgotten a lot of it. It can happen.

      I would just point out that this is totally normal. “Five-year-olds are like that. I thought Sue was great, and her daughter was adorable.” I’m sure there’s info out there about how kids have these kinds of meltdowns. You could find something that you could send her if she keeps bringing it up. “No, like I told you, this is normal. Here’s an article about it. It’s a part of growing up.”

    24. KoiFeeder*

      Having been an autistic kid, my immediate first instinct is that Rachel is upset that Sue’s daughter wasn’t punished. There are people out there, and maybe I met an abnormally high amount of them, who get really bent out of shape if they don’t believe that a child that was inconvenient to them has been punished. Of course, since I’m the only one who immediately thought of this (unless I missed someone), hopefully that’s not a usual occurrence nowadays.

  14. Wearing Many Hats*

    Hello, I asked about this in the LGBT open thread a few months ago, but still haven’t come to a good solution. My wife, who came out to me as a trans woman back in January, has come out to all our friends and family (who have been very supportive!) but is not out at work just yet. She has a plan with her HR team, but I am trying to figure out how to bring it up in my workplace! She is a director at a large company while I am HR/IT/Finance at a tiny tech startup. I’ve been referring to her as my partner all year, but my co-workers met her last year at a holiday party as my ‘husband’ (and I’m tired of deadnaming her!) A company wide email or announcement at our meeting is too formal–should I just tell folks as it comes up? Any advice or experiences very welcome!

    1. Anax*

      Trans dude here – Yes, just tell folks as it comes up. Be explicit, assuming your startup is pretty queer-friendly – “So, my wife has this awesome cookie recipe – oh, you met her as Daniel last year, she’s in the process of transitioning and is going by Danielle now…”

      (Otherwise, it can get confusing, with folks wondering if they misremembered your marital status, if this is a different person, if you’re poly, etc. And explicitly lampshading the trans thing can help the name and pronouns stick in folks’ heads. With new people who don’t know her from before, avoid deadnaming – for a lot of folks, that deadname gets stuck in their head as the “””real name”””, and it’s easier to short-circuit that reaction by just not using it.)

      They will probably forget a few times, since they don’t see your wife often – probably not a big deal, unless it’s done with malice or by someone who really SHOULD have it down by now.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        Ahh good points to keep in mind! We’re in a very liberal state and my co-workers are very nice and accepting, but quite sheltered somehow (I introduced them to pad thai yesterday). Thank you!

        1. hermit crab*

          Ha! At my current workplace, I think people would be WAY more surprised that someone hadn’t ever heard of pad thai vs. that someone’s spouse was transitioning.

      2. Earthwalker*

        Yes please! As someone who tends to be socially clueless, I’d rather hear this about someone I know right up front before I blurt out something stupid and thoughtless. Such a plain statement of fact would do favor not just for your spouse but for your friends and coworkers too.

    2. Bananatiel*

      I have very little experience with this beyond how I’d personally want to hear the news. But I think a very straightforward aside that she’s using she/her/hers pronouns now would be helpful to me, especially if I were still referring to your wife as “husband” in conversation! I work in an office environment that’s culturally very liberal so I think everyone would understand without you having to divulge more personal details than you want to. But YMMV depending on your office culture, of course.

        1. CMart*

          Agreed with Bananatiel. Being straightforward (like with Anax’s scripts above) would be more than enough for me, personally.

          I would hope most people, even if the news comes as a big shock and they have some level of surprise/needing time to think about it, would do that in the privacy of their own heads and simply react to you with “oh gosh, I’m sorry [implied: for calling her your husband/referring to her as “him”]! Thanks for telling me.”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed with speaking clearly and directly. Don’t leave me guessing what you want me to do. I am fine with clear instructions. I am not fine with hints, I usually don’t get it. If I write it down somewhere, such as a contact list or a roledex, don’t be offended. This is my way of making sure I get it right each time.

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          Another voice for “straightforward” (pun not intended – I’m queer/LGBT myself). “Oh, one thing, my partner goes by she/her pronouns now, and I refer to her as my wife, Danielle.”

          No hint of a suggestion that they were doing it wrong — after all, they were following what they knew. But also a clear expression of what you want them to do, said in a friendly tone.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Tell folks as it comes up. But maybe start by bringing it up to an ally in the gossip circles who can field the questions that folks are too embarrassed to ask you directly. Prep the ally with all the phrases you’d want used (including solutions to all those invasive questions about genitals and what will happen to them).

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        Thank you! As HR I don’t really circulate in gossip circles, but will tell the senior team so they can address with their direct reports as needed. Good idea!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        There is a thing about gossip circles that can help you. Take the preemptive strike. You know your people. If you think they are going to say X, then give that reply to X before they even say it— if at all possible. If you get out ahead of it, you can nip it sometimes. Of course, you can’t cover every stupid thing they come up with to say but you can hit one or two of the most common stupid things.

    4. MuttIsMyCopilot*

      My spouse also recently transitioned, and I think you’re on the right track to just start mentioning it whenever she comes up. When someone asked “How’s Peter?” I’d just say something like “Oh, she recently transitioned and it’s actually Abigail now, but she’s great!” and it was always well received. If you don’t make it seem like A Big Thing people will mostly follow your lead. A few people had some trouble making the switch (linguistically, not ideologically), so be prepared to graciously remind/forgive folks for a while.

      If there’s any chance that anyone in your coworkers’ circles overlaps with her’s though, I’d probably wait until she’s out at work.

      1. SecretGay*

        I think you could (if you felt comfortable) also use that as an opportunity to talk about some of transition (esp. the non-bottom surgery parts). So like, “How’s Peter” – “Oh, she recently transitioned and it’s actually Abigail now. She’s doing great – very excited, but meanwhile, we dropped quite a bit of dough this weekend on the finest anti-acne skincare Sephora can provide us. We just figured, if she has to go through puberty a second time, why restrict her to the drugstore the way she was as a teenager?” It gives them something to think about and respond to and helps keep the conversation going.

        1. smoke tree*

          Oh my goodness, I would not recommend doing this! Just talk about your spouse as you normally would, don’t invite coworkers to scrutinize her transition!!

          1. Wearing Many Hats*

            yeah, that will not be happening. I am HR and have laid down the law about appropriate conversations, so folks here know that talking about sex or asking too many questions about surgeries is off the table, at least around me. We have a very respectful crew and while I’m sure there will be some bewildered googling, they’ll keep it professional (or face a warning conversation with me and their manager haha)

            1. smoke tree*

              Yes, from your above comments, I didn’t think you were likely to actually do this! You sound like a very considerate partner.

          2. SecretGay*

            I mean, again, it’s if you felt comfortable based on how much you normally share. But I don’t think talking about various aspects of transition is inherently inviting people to scrutinize that transition. There’s a lot more that goes on in transition than many people tend to think about, and those things take up a lot of time, money, and energy. Other people talk about how their lifestyle has changed after a spouse’s health issues limited mobility, or their infant is keeping them up at all hours of the night… why can’t we share anything about what all this involves, especially when it isn’t about their genitals?

            1. Wearing Many Hats*

              I am not a sharing type of person I guess–I wouldn’t go into much detail about any type of surgery or health issue. I frankly just give overviews to my co-workers of most things, vacations, house repairs, hobbies, and other benign things!

            2. smoke tree*

              It would be great to live in a world where transitioning is seen as an utterly benign activity, but unfortunately there are still a great many people who think that trans people’s bodies, identities and transitions are up for discussion/debate/consumption. Although I’m sure WMH’s colleagues are nice people, I would be very hesitant to encourage anyone to feel entitled to intimate details about a distant acquaintance’s transition. In addition to which, many of those details are just going to be inappropriate for a work conversation (and quite likely too personal for many people to want their partner’s coworkers to know about).

              1. SecretGay*

                It depends upon your workplace, but I’ve actually had pretty decent luck with this. No one has taken it as an opportunity to ask her genitals, but many have seemed relieved to have *some* way to discuss it and connect with me over it. I think the key is definitely that I purposefully keep it to the superficial, non-intimate stuff that’s easy for people to relate to – acne, clothes shopping, how her transition affects our summer vacation plans, etc.

                Again, if someone (like WMH) doesn’t feel comfortable with doing this, then don’t do it. But don’t discourage those of us who do feel comfortable doing some educating and expanding of the conversation away from doing it, either. People will never react like transition is an utterly benign activity if you don’t give them the chance.

                1. Baru Cormorant*

                  I think this would be a good idea to do with friends, especially people who mean well/are supportive but don’t have much experience with what transitioning looks like.

        2. Marvel*

          WHAT. No! This is no one’s to share except the person who is actually transitioning, and even then discussing medical details at work can be iffy for all the same reasons as when a cis person does it.

      2. Wearing Many Hats*

        This was my plan–thank you for the feedback and encouragement! I talked about it with her (of course) and she is supportive of me ‘coming out’ at work as it were. Our industries are very different and I would be surprised if there was any overlap.

      3. Lilysparrow*

        Okay, I know this sounds pretty stupid in context of this discussion. But without that context, this script would be totally bewildering to me.

        I guess it’s because I’ve personally known/worked with more people who practiced non-mainstream religions and used many alternative terms for death, than with people who have come out as trans.

        But my immediate read on the phrase, “She recently transitioned and it’s Abigail now,” would be that your former spouse literally died, and you re-married an entirely separate person I had never met, named Abigail. That “she” would just fly by unnoticed.

        I’d catch up eventually, but it is possible to be so casual about a significant life event, that you aren’t communicating clearly.

        I think clearly saying that your partner is using she/her pronouns now and has a new name, which is Abigail, is a lot clearer and easier to process. If you’re telling people things that they can’t possibly know from another source, then you have to actually *tell* them.

    5. SecretGay*

      I am in the same boat – my trans wife is out to her friends and a handful of coworkers, but not yet her whole workplace, and I’m trying to tell more of my colleagues. I’m definitely going with just telling people as it comes up, because it’s a large place with a lot of people – you might be able to make a formal announcement work if your workplace is teeny and absolutely everyone knows her as your husband, Daniel.

      There are really two ways I’ve gone about doing this: 1) just starting to say her new name and call her my wife and see if I need to say more, and 2) explicitly explaining that she’s trans. So like with 1: “I’m so glad this place has flexible schedules, because it allows me to drop off and pick up my wife from work so that we can be a 1-car family and get that much closer to buying a home.” Or, “Michelle and I tried out that new hiking trail you suggested – how gorgeous!” This has largely worked – people mostly seem to pick up what’s happened, or think they misremembered my personal life. Occasionally, someone will say, “who’s Michelle?” and I’ll respond, “my wife” and we can take it from there.

      1 is honestly my preference, because 2 tends to lead to a lot of questions (how am I doing? did I know when we got married? are we going to stay together? etc.) that is much more personal than I’d rather get into at work. However, I have used 2 on occasion with those I talk about my personal life more than average. Even then, I tried to slip it in – “We watched Mari Kondo on Netflix this weekend, and Michael, who – by the way – has come out as a woman and is now going by Michelle, anyway, she is now KonMari-ing the entire place and it’s kind of a wreck right now. Have you KonMaried your place?” This has varied success at diverting questions about The State Of My Marriage (though, it does tend to come with more assurances that if there is anything the coworker can do to be supportive they’d love to help).

      It’s tough tho. I have one coworker who saw the wedding pic I had of my wife (pre-transition) on my desk, and now inquires about how my “hubby” (blech) is doing all the time, and I d.r.e.a.d. telling her. So I took the wedding pics home to prevent more of that happening, but now I have no pics of my spouse at work and that makes me sad :'(.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        Uggggh on that hubby front. I’m not much of a sharing person at work anyway–I’m a bit older than most of my co-workers and they aren’t too interested in our gardening and cat shenanigans. And I guess the silver lining to moving to a totally open office back in April is that there is no place to put a picture, so it’s been down for a while.

        1. M*

          I think I posted in your last question as well- partner recently transitioned. I work in a boarding school so this was a big deal for us since we live at my job, along with all of my coworkers.

          In early days, I just told a few people. It was actually our kids who did the most telling; when they started talking about their dad, all of their 6-year-old friends were like- wait, when did you get a dad?

          After a bit we did a whole email just because it was easier. The one advice I have if you choose this route is to subtly indicate to people how they should respond. So in our case the email said just letting you know partner is going by new name now. We appreciate all of your support for this exciting change for our family. (Or something along those lines). Every person who responded used the word exciting in their response. I think it was helpful for people who wanted to be supportive to have the language that I had used. A few people had dumb questions but even those were well-meaning.

    6. Mellow*

      May I say, if I were your coworker, I would like to be told straight up. It’s instructive for me and respecful to the reality of one’s spouse.

      Also, may I say, good for her for having the courage to be who she knows she is, and bless you for loving her as she is. We sure could use more of both in this country.

    7. Skeeder Jones*

      Hi, disclaimer, not trans and no spouse that is trans but I have spent the past 3 months creating an eLearning module on caring for transgender and gender non-conforming members (I work at a healthcare company) and it has really transformed my thinking around gender.

      I agree completely with all the support you’ve received from people who actually have experience with this, especially about not sharing the medical transition part because one of the things I learned is that each person is unique and has different opinions about what they want to do to their body so staying out of that conversation helps to support the fact that people transition differently but what matters is that they are in charge of making those decisions.

      I think that just being casual about it is great because treating it like it is normal is what helps normalize it. It just becomes part of the normal conversations of life: Hey, I graduated from my Master’s, we’re adopting a kitten, our daughter won an award at school, my spouse is trans and transitioned, her name is Mary, etc.

      Also, I think you two need to go out and do something fun, and take a picture together! That’s an easy enough problem to fix! Congratulations!

  15. Neosmom*

    Other duties as assigned: Finding and purchasing tiny glass vials, labeling them, and filling them with sand from last month’s groundbreaking ceremonies for our newest distribution center. For board members. For the next day’s quarterly board meeting.

    My desk became a sand box (still finding the grains).

    My successful completion of this project will not go on my resume or my LinkedIn profile. But, I do have a happy boss.

    1. Havarti*

      Man, the things we do to make our bosses happy. Sand is like one teeny tiny step above glitter in its insidious inability to ever be completely cleaned up.

    2. juliebulie*

      Congrats on making your boss happy. Now you’ve got me wishing for an actual drawer full of sand to play with.

    3. DCGirl*

      Back in work-study days in the my alma mater’s development office, my boss decided to send a magnolia leaf from the stately old magnolia trees that graced the campus. Guess who had to go out on the lawn in July with a heft bag and gather fallen leaves?

    4. Mockingjay*

      Can you use the leftover sand for one of those miniature meditation gardens? With one of those cute tiny rakes?

      1. Quill*

        My family has a joke about desk zen gardens after my mom’s boss picked a bunch of dollar store zen garden kits up for the “holiday present” and made a big deal about how stress busting they were.

        The Zen Garden ended up in the gag round of that year’s white elephant christmas exchange.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          LOL I have one and I like it.

          One year in my family, several different people gave/received hot stone massage kits. After the second one, there was much hilarity as people opened theirs.

        2. Chaordic One*

          Many years ago a coworker had a small zen garden sitting on their desk and one day someone added a tiny little toy tractor pulling a plow behind it.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        I have a beach-in-a-box on my desk. It’s a small origami box with some sand and shells. Occasionally I stick my fingers in there and imagine.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ya know, once in a while, I really don’t mind days like this.

      But if you have a steady flow of this type of stuff, I am sorry.

    6. Cinderella in the West*

      Can I push back against the “other duties as assigned?” Should this include a “within reason” clause?

      What if the new assignment changes the work hours, environment, and/or availability in the normal work day? Is it something that an employee can outright say, this is not in my job description?

      I’ve been the envelope stuffer, snack shopper, equipment cleaner, photo journalist, laundry folder, event planner, Vanna White, and memo sending person at my company. I am not the admin assistant, but I have a hard time saying, No, to the admins. Clearly I adhere to other duties as assigned.

      I’ve temporarily been assigned someone else’s job, hours, & desk. I have communicated my frustration, and I’m not sure how much longer this will continue. They gave me no window for the temp job. I am not insubordinate. I’m always willing to help out and go above and beyond. Can the duties assigned to me change my hours from 9-5 to 7-2am?

  16. Odetta*

    OMG. New levels of ridiculousness. I went to get a glass of water and there weren’t any glasses in the cupboard. I noticed that the dishwasher hadn’t been emptied, so I emptied it. The office manager poked her head in and asked me not to do it in the future because people saw me doing it last week and thought I had to do it even though it is her job and she was getting in trouble (today isn’t really an issue since there are normally only about 4 of us in the office on Fridays and we’re all normal). But she was out sick last week! Well when she’s out, A is supposed to do it and if she can’t, B is supposed to. FFS!

      1. valentine*

        not even a ‘thank you’ for your actions/thoughtfulness?
        No, because it brought blowback on the office manager. I would love leave to get a glass for myself and not empty the dishwasher. It’s her domain. I’d leave it to her.

      2. Observer*

        I don’t really blame her. She doesn’t seem to have been too snarky about it. I may be misreading, but Odetta doesn’t sound like they are upset at the office manager but the people who are making a fuss about it.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Not a dishwasher, but I threw a tiny tantrum in our kitchen this morning.

      I swear it’s me and one other person who changes the water bottle on the water cooler. I kept track one week, 3 separate times. I came into work this morning and the coffee maker was empty (not plumbed in) and when I went to fill the coffee maker, the %#*$&% water cooler was empty.

      I ran into the big boss for the site that I office out of (I’m in a different group), I told him he needs to have a water cooler test as part of his interview process.

      1. irene adler*

        Been there!

        Folks would remove the empty water bottle and walk away.

        When I asked why, they explained that it was their way of communicating that there needs to be a new water bottle installed. Never mind that leaving the water cooler open like that leaves it exposed to whatever is in the air.
        So I suggested that they install a new water bottle. “Can’t,” they said. “Too heavy to lift.”
        I had the vendor deliver small 3 gallon bottles. Folks can lift these. No more excuses.

        So now the water cooler is just left empty.
        **facepalm**

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Oh FFS when I tore my rotator cuff I would track down someone who IS able to lift water bottles every time I used the last of the water.
          Feel free to warn them if they do that often enough, facilities is likely to install water filters on your crappy well…that’s what happened here. Not fun when the filter goes into sulfur-production mode!

        2. Librarian of SHIELD*

          If the bottles are too heavy, that’s when you catch a passing coworker and say “Hey, would you help me lift this water bottle?” It takes about four seconds. Ugh.

        3. SomebodyElse*

          Ours is the new fancy kind that has the bottle/jug on the bottom with a pump. The water is stored 1 foot from the cooler. So all someone has to do is to slide a bottle from the bottom of the rack 1 foot and then tip and lean it into the cooler!!!! Zero excuse for not doing it.

          Thank you all for commiserating with me.

        4. Kuododi*

          GACK!!! That’s similar to the logic used by the miscreants who cut bites out of the last donut in the box. Then they leave this small, sad looking scrap of donut to turn green and petrified. Only then will someone break down and dispose of the trash. Never ceases to amaze me!!!

          1. Curmudgeon in California*

            Or the people who collectively leave seven half bagels in the box to go stale. Or the real jerk who cuts 1/4 out of one, and expects “someone” to miraculously want the mangled other 3/4. I hate when I have a meeting and get there to only ratty halves and cut up quarters of the diet people’s rejects. It’s maddening.

            I get it, you are “on a Diet™”, but you shouldn’t expect the rest of us to be your garbage disposal. If you can only “have a little bit”, how about finding a “diet buddy” to share with, or really sticking to your diet and not cheating with any?

            1. Mellow*

              Also, the jerk who brings back the company car with less than half a tank of gas and a windshield lathered in dead bugs.

              *****head explodes*****

    2. CatMintCat*

      Toilet rolls. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve changed the toilet roll at work because somebody has walked away and left it empty, I could retire a very wealthy woman.

      Seriously, the basket beside the toilet is always full (our cleaner tops it up daily) and you don’t even have to stand up to do it!

  17. aphorisn't*

    I attended a conference yesterday – my first work conference ever. I came away with a lot of ideas and energized, which I think might be the primary purpose of these things, but also demoralized with regards to my current workplace.

    There were a lot of interesting ideas and information that I gathered, but – as one of the people who I talked to said – I feel like my team is “functionally isolated.” The door is open to talk to whoever we want to, like people on other teams and the president of the company, but it feels like even though some things have changed (like the products we produce), other things will never change (like the struggle to get people to think about the customer’s needs and experience instead of doing whatever they want to do).

    The leader of the company may have a vision, but he’s a “big thinker” and can’t/doesn’t distill that vision into actionable parts, and everyone on the level below him has their own ideas, are “lifers” at the company, and fight to implement their own personal idea of what’s best instead of being united under any idea at all.

    The leader can spout aphorisms like “Disagree But Commit” and “Company Comes First” but they don’t MEAN anything, and without any guidance on interpreting them in a meaningful way, they really chafe me because I feel like what they really say are “Your opinion doesn’t matter” and “Throw work/life balance out the window.”

    All that to say, does this mean I need to move on and find a different place to work? I enjoy the day-to-day tasks of my job but I can’t effect any higher-level change at my level (and, honestly, I could talk until I’m blue in the face and people don’t respect me enough to even acknowledge I have a point) and the more I see of the “strategy” of this place, the more frustrated I feel.

    1. juliebulie*

      I hope you had a chance to do some networking at that conference, because yes.

      I mean, you can stay where you are, not worry about it, and have a stable job for years if whatever they’re doing is still making money. But I have a feeling that’s not what you want.

      If it’s still early in your career, and if you can stand it, you could stay there a year or two longer just to make it look better on your resume. But I think you should start looking now.

    2. 867-5309*

      One thing to keep in mind is that at conferences people – especially if someone is speaking or connected to the speaker, or a sponsor – are more apt about talking about how cool or great things are. This helps THEM look good also.

      It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look for new opportunities, but rather that conference-going and networking can be a bit like social media: The public face is much prettier than real life.

      If you were happy BEFORE the event, just keep this in mind.

    3. LadyTesla*

      You should potentially read the book “Culture by Design” by Friedman. It talks a lot about this problem. That there are these executive level people with grand, vague ideas. But they don’t have *actionable* things or items that come out of these values. He talks about how to measure and change that. I would suggest reading that, seeing if your work would be willing to change towards these types of plans.

  18. Starting again*

    I am attempting to restart over alone at almost 40, any advice on a career change or movement when going to a large city at this stage of life? Things that may help make me more marketable in a large city vs the small area I have been in. I am turning 38 in a month and I am either having a mid-life crisis or I’m just having an epiphany on my life. I have a good work from home job (Health Insurance Project Management, MBA degree)but this year had hit me like a ton of bricks (marriage betrayal, parents bad judgement, and the realization that the life I was working for isn’t going to happen) and I want to change my life. I want to pursue the dreams I let go of to be a “responsible”, help my struggling parents, and create my own family in my 20’s. I realize that I need to pursue these as hobbies and not as a career change, so I am not expecting these hobbies to create an income just to fulfill a need. To do this reasonably I need to move to a larger city the dream was New York, but realistically just a larger metropolitan city with an active Arts community (we are currently in the county). However, my good income (95K) is realistically only a good income in small town Indiana not a large metropolitan city and I am looking for advice to change that.

    1. DisappointedinDC*

      That’s a great income in NYC (if you are by yourself)! (I lived in NYC on significantly less than that, and I live in DC now, still making less than that). But don’t forget – Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul both have very vibrant arts communities and they are relatively affordable and are not as expensive as NYC.

      1. LimeRoos*

        I second Minneapolis/St. Paul. There is a very active arts community, I have a few friends from high school I reconnected with when I moved here and I’m always amazed at everything they’re involved in that I see on Facebook – so much theater and music. And there’s quite a few art fairs & galleries as well. And it’s definitely affordable on that income, combined our income has been well under that until this year and we’ve been pretty comfy, even with student loans, mortgage, and car payment. Plus, with your job, experience, & degree, you may be able to find another fantastic job up here – there is a very large healthcare field (I’m in it, but much lower down the food chain lol).

      2. Natalie*

        One thing I would just be aware of in the Twin Cities is that we have a (deserved) reputation of being a hard place to make friends. The standoffishness that can be standard in the Midwest is turned up to 11 here. It’s not impossible or anything, getting involved in the arts community will totally help, and there are also tons of Meetups and other groups for transplants. It’s just good to know ahead of time so you can decide if you’re okay with that and be assured that it’s not you, it’s us.

        1. Transplant*

          THIS. Thank god I had a built in friend group before I moved or else I would be so lonely. Also is it just me or does it seem like half the population just disappears in winter? The first warm day is so funny because it feels like the population just doubles overnight and there are so many people on the roads/ in target/ at the bars.

          1. Natalie*

            It’s pretty crazy. I suspect a lot of people just stay at home and socialize at people’s homes. I grew up here aside from college and I never got used to the winters. The darkness makes me sleepy, and every single activity takes 3x as long (I will never understand winter biking, why do you want to spend 25 minutes gearing up for the 20 minute bike ride to work you lunatics). You really have to like winter sports to do them in 20 below windchill. It sucks.

            It seems like there’s been a big uptick in transplants so I’m eagerly anticipating you guys infecting our culture with more friend-making skills. :)

            1. Transplant*

              Yes! The winters are so bad. Thank god for the sky way/ a building that has a heated garage. I got one of those special lamps for people with Seasonal Depression to help and it made a huge difference this January (Also why does everyone compare winters to the winter of 91-92? “this is mild compared to 92!!!!!” Dude I wasn’t alive yet calm down I’m freezing).
              The summers are what lured me here. The summers are perfect.

        2. Working Hypothesis*

          Chicago, OTOH, is pretty good for musing new friends, if Starting Again is looking for a big Midwestern city with an active arts community and a friendly vibe. I lived there for ten years, and would go back willingly if family circumstances permitted.

    2. ThatGirl*

      95K is plenty in most metro areas. My husband and I make a bit under that combined and we’re doing fine in Chicagoland. It may not go quite as far in NYC but it’s definitely liveable there.

      1. Mazzy*

        I agree totally, and I’ve lived in quite a few places, and how much taxes they’re paying will play a role. If they’re maxing their 401k and filing taxes as a single person, with the high state taxes and local tax (nyc tax will be getting close to 3k for them) they’re “only” taking home a bit under 4K a month. Which is great money, but I just wanted to mention this because most people don’t realize how much the taxes are in the tri state area

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, god, I wish I could find a remote job that made that much. I’d move to Los Angeles in two seconds.

    3. Miss Fisher*

      You might want to check out Cincinnati/NKY. Your income would be fine here and the arts community is pretty fairly active. I live here and don’t make nearly that much. I just bought my own place.

      Could you continue your WFM job until you find something else if needed?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was just coming here to say Cincinnati. The arts scene here isn’t as big or vibrant as NYC/Philly/Chicago/Minneapolis, etc., but it’s growing, and downtown is also changing rapidly (in a good way) with more restaurants and sporting activities if you’re into that sort of thing. $95k a year will certainly go far here.

    4. AccountantWendy*

      I mean, my spouse and I live in greater Boston and make just about that between the two of us so yeah, 95K is actually pretty solid even in a high cost of living city, especially since you only have to pay for yourself. I’m also your age, to help put it in perspective. If you can move without losing your salary, I think you have a lot options!

      1. AcademiaNut*

        The main thing is that living on $95 K in a small town and in a metropolitan area will get you very different styles of living, particularly when it comes to accommodation and transportation. If you’re used to living in a 4 bedroom house with a big yard, pool and double garage and having a 10 minute commute to work (and driving everywhere), doing that in a high COL setting is going to cost major money. If you adapt to living in a small apartment, and dealing with public transportation, and figure out how to balance convenience vs price, the money will go a lot farther.

        Some places, like NYC and the San Francisco bay area will be notable exceptions to this, but even there, there are a lot of people living on much less than 95K. They just tend to have some combination of small apartment/roommates/long commute/dodgy neighbourhood.

    5. Kiki*

      Honestly $95k goes very far in some cities. Look into Philadelphia, maybe? Thriving arts scene and close to NYC too (lots of NYC expats).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Philly’s another wonderful option. I used to live in Center City during college, and I had a blast running through that city and going to gallery exhibits and indie music shows.

      2. Jaid*

        I make about 60K and live in Philly. Mind you, I get a transportation subsidy from my employer and live outside of Center City, but no complaints.

    6. Hope*

      95K is a pretty good income in medium metro areas, or even the large ones in the south. You might want to look into COL in a variety of cities.

    7. TCO*

      Hello from Minneapolis! Yes, we have a vibrant arts scene and a great job market for a diverse range of professions, along with a lot of other good qualities. You mentioned working in health insurance; we’re home to United Healthcare as well as several other Fortune 500s. What I like about the Twin Cities is that it has big-city opportunities, but it’s actually not that big of a place. People who run in similar circles tend to overlap a lot. You could get involved in the arts scene and come to feel pretty connected to that network.

      And $95k salary is plenty to live very comfortably here. People live very comfortably on much less than that, though everyone’s finances and needs are different. If you’re coming with solid experience into our job market, and especially with experience in a field that’s one of our key industries here, I don’t think you need to worry about being less competitive because you’re from a small town in a different state.

      1. Transplant*

        I second this. When I first moved to Minnesota 2 years ago I was able to get an apartment in a nice area of town for $950 WITH NO ROOMMATE. I lived on a 23k salary for about a year quite comfortably before I switched jobs and make way more. The job market is the best I have been in.

      2. Joielle*

        Yes, come to Minneapolis! I didn’t realize there are so many of us here. We should hang out :)

    8. Parenthetically*

      “my good income (95K) is realistically only a good income in small town Indiana”

      This… may be hyperbole (?) but it’s not accurate unless you have what I’d consider a very lavish lifestyle. You make over 2.5x my household income and we live in a city of 1 million. We are doing fine.

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I made less than that in NYC and lived with my partner and dog in a fairly pricey (though small) apartment in Manhattan, and my partner made very, very little money (point being that I paid the rent without his help). If you’re on your own, $95k is a pretty good salary in New York; in fact, once I hit $85k I finally felt I could exhale a bit. Your approach to things will be different– your living space will be smaller and likely not in the center of everything, you won’t necessarily be able to save as much– but it’s more than do-able.

      If you can hang on to that WFH job and take it with you, you can absolutely make that move work.

    10. Sharkie*

      Dude- 95k in Minneapolis/ Chicago/ DC is more than enough for you to live comfortably! Chase your dreams. You got this.

    11. Sophie Hatter*

      I just want to say good for you for starting again and changing your own life! Another plug for Minneapolis. Very active arts community! Chicago has that as well, but if you like the feel of a smaller city you might like it here. 95K sounds like a crapton of money to me, but I’ve never made more than 1/3 of that since I’m early in my career in human services. I think you could live comfortably in many cities on that especially if you’re by yourself.

    12. M*

      Hey! Congrats! That income is great in lots of cities. I will also recommend Philadelphia! I don’t live there but recently visited and it is a vibrant city, pretty inexpensive to live and even buy a place. A close friend lives in Boston and is getting priced out of neighborhoods where she wants to live. She is looking to move to Philadelphia. She works in higher ed so there are lots of colleges there, but also great eats, museums, and so much to do. I really liked it when I visited with her. She was so excited to be able to move and buy a townhome/ condo in a great neighborhood where she could walk everywhere. She also makes less money than you and she would be able to purchase, just so you know. And you can easily get to DC and NYC by car, train, or plane. And having the international airport is great if you want to travel.

      1. Sharkie*

        I second Philly. My cousin and his wife were able to afford a house basically right out of college in Philly. Just watch out for the sports fans, they throw lots of snowballs ;)

          1. Sharkie*

            FYI I am obsessed with Gritty. He is my favorite and it makes me feel yucky as a Caps fan lol.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Hey, hey, hold on! That’s….actually totally fair. As you were. Put me down for recommending Philly as a place to consider. I’d also throw in Colorado Springs because it’s still got a vibrant arts scene, including repertory theater, and you’re close to Denver and Boulder, which are both fun (although significantly pricier cities as far as housing costs).

    13. Rainy*

      95k sounds fucking fantastic to me; I live in a very expensive smaller town (I love it here, but damn).

      There are a lot of smaller cities, and even bigger cities, where you will do just fine by yourself on 95k.

      I want to address some of the identity crisis/shift stuff you are currently experiencing. That’s normal. I recommend counseling if you aren’t already working with someone, but know that the things you are feeling are normal and valid. My first husband died when I was in my early 30s, and I ended up pretty much remaking my life in the most amazing ways possible. Remember that hope is always scary, and the bigger the hoped-for change, the more likely you are to be scared as well as excited. You are daring to dream of another you, living another life, and that is incredibly brave and amazing. Good luck. :)

    14. Roja*

      What about Cleveland? It’s 2 million metro and has a VERY active arts community, tons and tons of theater and also plenty of dance and music. The symphony is fantastic and the art museum is top notch as well. The city flies under the radar but it’s really got a lot going for it, and your money will go super far here.

    15. cmcinnyc*

      You can totally live on that in NYC. You can absolutely start over in NYC. What you can’t do in NYC is walk around moaning that you’re 38, so old so old. While there are millions of people here who marry young, have kids young, care for their parents–all the things you’ve done–it’s not the universal pattern. That’s what’s great about NYC: There Is No Universal Pattern. You don’t need to apologize for “your stage of life” or any of that. Just show up and rock it.

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It will depend on your dreams and how much space you want though, that’s the only catch. You wouldn’t be buying a house here but you’d get all the best rentals easily if you’re happy with a 1 or 2 bedroom setup.

      In Indiana it’s going to buy more space but not price you out of life by any means at 95k.

      You’ll also be worth more in NYC or another metropolis, so if you’re making 95k in a lower cost of living area, you’d be looking at a higher amount in a high cost of living area.

      If you want to come out west, Seattle is thirsty for employees.

    17. 867-5309*

      There are a number of excellent mid-size cities that would offer a FANTASTIC living on $95k and an active arts community: Columbus, Indianapolis, St. Petersburg, Louisville, Kansas City, Detroit… I’ve lived in four of these six alone and can attest to their art scenes, particularly Columbus.

      And, good luck. I turn 40 in January and am repatriating to the U.S. after moving abroad to be with my soon-to-be-ex-husband. I most recently lived in NYC before this and while you can def live on $95k, my minimum to live there is $150k. It depends on the lifestyle you want, how close to a specific area you want to be, etc.

    18. ...*

      I live in downtown Chicago and I think that’s a great income. It sounds like you didn’t end up having kids? If you’re single thats plenty! More than enough! I lived on 30k a year in Chicago in my own apartment although things were TIGHT and there wasn’t $$ for hobbies. Not every housing market is as insane as the news networks make it out to be (ok except SF maybe). You can DEFINITELY live WELL on 95k in a big city. Although to me, living well is a nice 1 bedroom, good food to cook at home, and money to get my nails done. I don’t have a car. You can DEFINITELY do it!!! I’m about 10 years younger than you but having similar thoughts (just turned 29). I wasted my 20’s partying and I want to pursue some meaty hobbies and interests for a few years right now. Still gotta put in my 45 a week to get by but let’s go do this!!

    19. MoopySwarpet*

      Can you take your WFH job to another city? You could possibly find a larger city area that is not too much of a stretch from your current COL. Someone mentioned the CNN cost of living calculator in another thread recently. Maybe that will help narrow down some of your options.

      If you could at least temporarily keep your current job and relocate to a metro area you like, you could at least have that while looking for a higher paying job in the new location.

    20. Not Telling*

      $95K on your own is a great income in Chicago, and we have very vibrant, active arts communities.

      1. sunshyne84*

        I guess I should say more about my city. lol We are actually having a Theater District Open House this Sunday. We have regular arts and craft events downtown. There’s a museum district as well that hosts events. One museum has happy hour. There’s the Bayou City Art Festival that happens twice a year. Even the zoo has networking parties. Just check the FEMA map for flood zones. lol

        1. Clementine*

          Yes, although I only know Houston from spending several days there, it is really a great place for so much. Don’t go by stereotypes from people who have never been there.

    21. Clever Name*

      Hmmm. I make around $80k and I’m pretty dang comfy supporting myself and half a kid (divorced) in the Denver area.

    22. Anon For This*

      Hey! I’m 40 and doing that. My path was a wild one and had some bumps, but it is definitely doable. And 95K is definitely a good income in NYC.

      I’ve lived in low and high COL cities. I’ve concluded that, often, you get what you pay for. Meaning that when the rent is higher, there are often more jobs that pay well, more networking / career exploration opportunities, more educational opportunities, and/or it’s more feasible to get by without a car and save money that way. Obviously, there are tons of variables. But look at the big picture. And figure out what will work best for you.

      In cities that are not the very largest, your arts community is a small town. That works better for some people than for others. Often, there is a focus on people who grew up there, for example. It would be worth considering whether a small town kind of environment will be good or bad for your work and long term goals. You would probably get a good sense of that after a year or two or three in a metro area other than NYC or LA. Even if your work takes you on the road a lot, where you’re based makes a difference.

      I would say go for it, and, like HMU if you come to NYC. We could do a creative project together or be roommies! (Not literally – I don’t want to give out my info here – just in theory.) People make these kinds of changes later in life and do well. 38 is young.

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          I’m 41 and in NYC and also approve this message.

          If you want to get the most bang for your housing buck without wrecking yourself commute-wise, look for a decent place at the last stop on an express subway line. I’ve lived near 207th Street on the A, and now I’m near Utica Ave on the 4. Both places I’ve had gorgeous apartments (New Yorkers are real estate snobs and people would walk in and say “WOW, this place is beautiful! And huge! Wow!”) with great landlords for not a ton of money by local standards. What we’re paying for the entire top floor of a house with four good-size bedrooms and a huge central communal space would get what Craigslist calls a “cozy” 1BR on the Upper East Side. But we can get to Wall Street in 30 minutes and Midtown in 45. Even if you don’t have a job that requires commuting, you’ll need to be able to get places for social events, so having good nearby subway service really matters. Also, those neighborhoods are the ones that feel the most like small towns, which I really love and which may help ease your culture shock (though they feel like small towns full of people of color, which may increase your culture shock depending on your background and where you are in Indiana), and they still have BIG apartments, which are great for having all your friends over to or doing your art/music in.

          (I miss being on 215th Street because we could drive to Boston in a bit over three hours thanks to functionally already being outside the city. We called it “upstate Manhattan”. But we had two subway lines and commuter rail right there, along with two enormous, mostly wild parks and the Cloisters Museum. We’d still be there if our friends hadn’t all moved to Brooklyn.)

          $95k is plenty to live on in NYC. We’re supporting a family of four on a little over twice that, and paying down our debt while we do it. For $2500 a month, you can find a nice studio or 1BR in any part of the city you like. Or find somewhere cheaper—1BRs around here are in the $1500–2000 range—and put the money you save toward art supplies or instruments or classes or whatever your artsy dream is. If you don’t drink and smoke your money away (which is a practical concern, not a moral one: drinks in bars are RIDICULOUSLY expensive, and cigarette taxes are sky-high), you’ll have no trouble at all.

    23. Clementine*

      I mentioned Houston, but what about Austin, or San Antonio? Austin has a lot of artsy things going for it, obviously.

  19. No Tribble At All*

    I’m starting part-time grad school next week! It’s with the support of the company, online, and directly relevant for my career. I’ve never taken an online class before— what tips do you guys have? I’ve been out of school for 4 years and have gotten very used to “home = lazy time.” Thanks!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Congratulations!

      When I did my online program, I had designated “classrooms” that I assigned to myself because I also struggle to work at home. My public library was for Class A and my university library was for Class B. It helped me to physically go to a new spot to work on materials.

      Make sure you check discussion boards early and often, and don’t be afraid to get into some substantive debates on the discussion boards. A lot of people comment some version of “yes I agree with your point and it’s a great one”, but the people who ask questions or offer alternative ideas get the most out of the discussion boards.

      1. Dorothy Zbornak*

        Yes, this. I took my first online class over the summer. I could generally do readings/note taking at home, but I forced myself to go to the library (I work at a university) when I really needed to buckle down and write papers or whatever. I wore comfy clothes and brought water and snacks with me so I could camp out for a long time. It really helped.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I work hourly in an office job and did my degree online. I would clock out at the end of the evening and stay and do my school work at my office. It was better for me mentally and I had things like the big printer and two monitors, etc. My bosses understood I wasn’t working over time so it was fine that I was staying after hours.

    3. Anonysand*

      Congratulations! I’m starting my grad program next week too! Mine will mostly be online, and I finished the last two years of my undergrad online as well…. Here are some things to keep in mind:

      1. Set aside or schedule time every week (or multiple times a week) at the SAME TIME to dedicate to your coursework like you would with a regular class. With online classes it’s really easy to push the work back until the deadline since you don’t have the face to face class time, and it’s a recipe for disaster if it gets out of hand. I’m a terrible procrastinator and the queen of being lazy, and this is one of my biggest struggles.

      2. If you haven’t already, practice and/or get used to telling people “no.” You’re going to have to skip things and leave events early so you can get your homework done. Your family might complain (lord knows mine did), but it’s got to get done sometime!

      3. Check-in with your professors, and if something happens and you can’t get something done or you need an accommodation, tell them ASAP. I had some stuff come up during my undergrad and my professors were all so understanding because I was honest and upfront about what was going on outside of my school-life.

      4. Take time for you! Taking classes online and working full time is no joke. Make sure you’re finding ample time to de-stress and take a breather when you need it.

    4. MissBliss*

      Block out time consistently every week to do your work. It doesn’t have to be from home. You could do it from work (after or before hours), at a cafe, at a library, outside (that can be utter bliss), or even in a room at your house that you never use (guest bedroom? Well-lit basement?). But block out that time and use it. Make sure you’re prepared before you start– eat so you’re not hungry, put distractions away or handle them before you start (I eat and take my dogs out before starting homework), and tell yourself when you will stop and what you will do then (I try very hard not to stop working and go straight to bed. 30 minutes for Bob’s Burgers is a great motivation!).

      It will take you a while to figure out how much time you need, but after a while you’ll realize that okay, it takes me about an hour to read 1 regular chapter, and I have 3 chapters to read for this one class and 5 short chapters to read for this other class, so that’s probably 5 hours of reading, and then I have 2 response posts/essays/presentations that I need to do this week, and they take about 1.5-2 hours, so I need to budget 4 hours for those.

      Good luck! You’ve got this.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      I am a FT online student since 2015! I love it. I don’t have to worry about making it to class either which is nice. Some tips I’ve found helpful:
      -Be really active in any discussion forums if your teacher has them. Sometimes not everyone is but I usually tried to be part of/answer questions when I could. Sometimes the teacher isn’t always available to clarify but another student has asked the question or can answer your concerns.
      -I quickly realized that even though I don’t have an official “class” that I had to distinguish between studying/learning and homework/assignments. I was used to going to class for an hour and then having an hour of hw a night. But with online I was only spending an hour a night and wondering why I felt behind. Because I didn’t factor in the learning part!
      -If you can get classmates contact info who are studying online/same degree as you it’s helpful. To keep in touch with them even if you aren’t in the same classes, it makes school feel more real. I’ve ended up with some of the same classmates several times over.
      -My school offers an online club for my major so i can feel more connected. It’s nice to be aware of the things I can participate in although sometimes work/time zones get in the way of that.

      Best of luck!

    6. Former Academic Librarian*

      That’s awesome! I did my master’s online. I second the suggestions to actually schedule classroom time. It’s easier to get the participation stuff done when you have designated time to respond to discussion board posts, etc.

      Also, see if the course management system has a calendar. My former university switched to Canvas right before I left, and it seemed like the calendar integrated well with both Outlook and Google. That way, you can easily push out reminders/due dates to your preferred calendar. Good luck!

    7. Justme, The OG*

      Congrats! I’m in an online program. In some ways it’s easier than in person because I can do things on my own time – but that also makes it harder since I don’t have specific class times to prepare for. Definitely make sure you keep a calendar of when things are due.

    8. Mid*

      I’ve found that online classes take a lot more discipline, at least for me. Especially if it’s a class where everything is due at the end, and there isn’t much work due throughout the class.

      I recommend
      1. set a schedule and stick to it. even if nothing is due for 12 weeks, do it sooner because it’s really easy to procrastinate when you don’t have to physically see your teacher,
      2. get physical copies of all the textbooks, if possible, because it helps make the classes more “real”
      3. set up a study place (probably outside of your home. If you live near a cafe that’s popular with students, that’s usually my favorite, otherwise libraries are great.

    9. Dana B.S.*

      For me, it varied a lot semester to semester. Some semesters were really heavy on group projects, so I was less able to control when I would do my work. Overall, I just tried to have a routine that would let my mind know “it’s time to work.” I only worked from home and just used designated areas.

    10. JustaTech*

      Congrats!
      In addition to what everyone’s said about scheduling (very important), make sure to look at your daily schedule and figure out what has to give. For me it was cooking a full from-scratch meal every night; for other people it might be laundry or cleaning or training for a race.
      If you live with someone make sure to talk to them about your time commitments and how much time class/homework/reading/ group projects will take. (My MIL had a very hard time accepting that I couldn’t just hop on a plane for a weekend visit when I was in class.)

      Oh, and if you’re expecting to have to give up a lot of exercise time, you might try an under-desk cycle to get some moving done while you do your reading or listen to lectures (not great when you’re taking notes).

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I did online classes about ten plus years ago so ymmv.
      I totally enjoyed it, but man, it was a lot of work. I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

      A few things, do everything early. Sign in to the class as soon as you can. Order your books as soon as you can.
      For my first class, I spent 8 hours just signing in and getting oriented to the website and to the class area on the website. Probably you will be able to do it faster than I did. However, allow extra time for unforeseens, especially for your first class. The next class will not require anywhere near the time because you will be oriented as to how things work.

      I liked using a binder with tabs for the sections. I could printout the parts I wanted. I kept a running list of to-dos at the front of the binder. With no human contact there is no one reminding me, “How are you doing with Thursday’s essay?”. I felt that I had to ramp up my vigilance.

      I really enjoyed the discussion area. Like here, you stay on topic but it was very interesting to read what others had to say. This can go toward your class participation. I enjoyed it so much that it did not feel like work.

      One prof had managed to assign us 400-500 pages of reading per night. One brave soul spoke up and said, “I can’t do this!” Then others chimed in. The prof did revise the reading assignments greatly. The course turned out to be pretty cool and the prof was a good prof. Don’t let how things start discourage you.

      Lazy time may turn into just a minor issue, as you might actually enjoy working online. The classes I took were asynchronous for the students. I was actually drawn back to the class because of wondering what this one or that one had to say on some of the topics. (Like here, people were online at different times.) It’s also nice when the prof jumps in and expands on various points that come up in discussion. That can get very interesting.

    12. Princesa Zelda*

      Congratulations!

      When I was an online student, I had to be very vigilant about making sure I actually *learned* the material, and that it didn’t go through my eyeballs and directly out the back of my skull. I strongly second everyone saying to stick to a schedule and have a designated study place. Mid’s advice to get the books all physically is good, and I want to expand on that a little. What really helped me was to not only have the physical books, but also to take notes by hand in a notebook, and annotate (with stickies) in the books themselves. Having the class exist in a physical way helped me retain the information.

      Also, make sure your professors know about it when something comes up! If you’re working FT and going to school, I can almost guarantee something will happen at some point in your work or life and school will be affected. Most professors are sympathetic and will work with you, but you have to actually tell them what’s going on. When I was 19, I thought it was, like, a Moral Failing to ever have anything in your life interfere with school, so when life tornado’d its way through my grades, I didn’t share anything with my professors and got straight Ds that semester; when I retook one of the classes and shared what had happened the previous semester with my prof, he told me I had done well enough up to the point where life happened that I could have gotten an extension on my final project and I could have gotten a B in the class.

      Good luck!

    13. Devils advocate*

      Most importantly, if there is a major election in your country at the end of your semester and the…not-expected-to-win opponent wins the presidency, don’t have a nervous breakdown. It can give you major writer’s block.

    14. New Normal*

      Congratulations! I started grad school on-campus and by the end was taking every class I could online. You lose some things – discussions with professors and classmates, mostly – but I found the online classes better for my adhd and less stressful since I wasn’t having to rearrange my work schedule ever 16 weeks.

      My degree was reading-intensive so I found the best way to keep up was to stick a post-it with the pages to read and due date in the front of each book and carry one with me so I could pull it out at lunch or while waiting for things to load at work and knock out a few more pages.

      There was one prof who’d use his lectures as his personal therapy sessions and tell personal stories vaguely connected to the material. Being able to take his classes online saved my sanity since I could start the video and mute it and just skim the transcript for the five minutes of actual material.

      For classes where the professor actually taught, I’d download the lectures and listen through them a second time in my car while commuting to really get the material down.

      I did make a little study corner with a desk and chair and it helped me to have that so I could mentally separate “lazy home” from “school home”. I also got to know my local Starbucks really well since sometimes you really need to get away to work. Most fast food places have WiFi and are quiet from 2-5 even on weekends so I had more than a few days where a tea and small fries bought me the space I needed to finish a paper. I also had a local sushi place that became my thesis joint – I’d go there to go over revisions or do a final draft as a reward.

      Enjoy!

  20. MOAS*

    I have 2 things – a vent and ask for advice. Vent will be later.. lol

    Any tips/advice on making sure my remotes are engaged? They’ve been here for about 6 weeks now, and so far so good. I manage a staff of 2 in house and 4 remote workers.

    So far, I hold weekly meetings with them. A group meeting and one on ones. We have individual group chats with them where each remote worker can talk to me, my boss and the other in house staff. My manager holds monthly meetings with them. This is all so that they feel fully engaged.

    Above everything, this is my biggest job duty — to make sure they’ feel engaged and not quit b/c they feel ignored or that there’s not enough work. They’re experienced professionals, so I’m not concerned about their work product or productivity. I also know it’s a different situation if someone were to quit months down the line or had other things come up.

    Nothing has happened and my boss says I’m doing a good job with them so far, but I want to be proactive and make sure my team succeeds. Figured it wouln’t hurt to ask here.

    1. Miss Fisher*

      It really depends on the individuals. Some people need that active engagement while others do not. On my team, we WFH 3 days a week and everyone is required to be in office 1 day week. We have a couple team members in offices in other cities though. My team loves getting together and doing team outings, while other teams around us do not. They prefer to just do work and go home or just WFH.

      If they are in the same city you could see if they wanted to do the occasional lunch etc for bonding.

      1. MOAS*

        I would definitely extend the offer, but they are in other parts of the country. The closest one is over an hour away.

        I can understand that someone wants less interaction and I respect that. Me personally, i love having face time with my boss. But all these things I have mentioned that I have set up — the group chats, meetings etc — these are mandated by my company. We’ve been developing this program since last year (I wasn’t directly involved in the development). I *think* that after a few months, we can loosen the reins a bit but for now, we have to have these constant check ins.

      2. valentine*

        For me, one meeting is too many, so I’d be concerned that these are far too many meetings. I like to be left alone to do my work and want to engage with it, not with colleagues.

        1. MOAS*

          Hmm, maybe down the line we can loosen that. But right now it’s mandatory and we have to have those check ins at least for the first few months.

    2. EH*

      As someone who has worked remotely full time for a couple years and is currently working remotely 3x/wk, the thing that has kept me the most engaged is Slack/IM. Being able to ping coworkers with questions on there is akin to swinging by their cube on my way back from getting a snack. My current gig, we have an off-topic Slack channel, which has been really fun. Also, another employee (full-time remote) had a cat jump up on him during a video meeting, so I pinged him privately about it, and now we have bonded over being cat people (so far, the only ones in our office, which is full of dog people).

      I’m one of those weirdos who kind of bonds better remotely because people are way less annoying. In the actual office, I can hear them whistling to themselves or having loud conversations or whatever, and it makes me grumpy. :) It’s easier to be fond of someone when you only interact with them when there’s a reason to.

    3. NW Mossy*

      I’ve managed remotes for several years now, and I’ve found that I have a much better read on engagement when I see them on video with some regularity. Being able to see their face and their body language as they’re engaged in conversation with you/their peers/others helps you spot clues to strong engagement like active listening that may not be as apparent by voice alone. Making it a regular practice also helps you learn their baseline, making any changes (positive or negative) more apparent.

      I’ve done this different ways with different people, depending on the circumstances. Video 1:1s are my personal preference, followed by video team meetings. For those who used to be physically in my office but later went remote, the phone can be enough because we’ve already established good rapport.

      You’re right to focus on giving frequent interaction in the early days. It may feel like overkill sometimes, but spending time with people is how we build the working relationships we need to be successful. Over time you may taper off into a maintenance mode, but more time up front will help you get to a solid foundation quickly.

      1. MOAS*

        Yes we are very big on video calls now. For interviews, training/orientation and meetings. I used to hate them but I’m getting comfortable with it. Glad to know my instincts are right in this regard (a lot now but can taper off). Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

    4. On Hold*

      Have you asked them?
      – How are things going?
      – Is there anything else you need from the team?
      – What can I do to help you settle in?

      Everyone’s different, so you’ll get the most useful feedback from the newhires themselves.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ignoring: Make sure they know how to contact you. Perhaps have more than one method. Make sure they know how to contact each other*. You may consider going as far as listing various topics people have asked you about, so they can “see” what type of help it is you are offering them.

      *Encouraging them to talk to each other allows them space to talk about things they may not want to talk over with a boss. It’s pretty normal for people to come up with questions they think are too simple and would upset the boss if they asked. But yet, they don’t know the answer.

      Enough work. Is there a way that you can share tasks that are unclaimed? Or can you give them individually next week’s work on Monday of the current week. Nothing says, “there is more work” like giving them lists of more work.

      Granted, I supervised people in person, but I said point blank, “My job is to make sure you have work. If you run out, be sure to tell me as that is part of what I am here for.” This seemed to work quite well.

    6. Skeeder Jones*

      I work with an all-remote team and we are all engaged and really enjoy each other. We have monthly team meetings through webex (or skype sometimes, someday will have to head to teams) but just audio. We meet face to face 3 times a year and we are always excited to see each other. It’s a team of people that really cares about each other.

      So how does this happen in an all remote team? First of all, my boss pays attention to personality when hiring and cares about how someone will fit in with the group. We often collaborate on projects so that helps build relationships. I think something else that makes a big difference are a few questions my manager asks at each 1 on 1 with a team member:
      What’s working for you?
      What isn’t working?
      Do you need anything from me?
      Is there anyone you want to thank?

      The fact that those questions take place tells me that my boss cares about me as an employee. If I need something, even outside the monthly meet, I know I can go to her for assistance. Also, the question about thanking someone helps build team unity because we are always recognizing each other. You will get a random email from her with a thank you because someone mentioned you in their one on one. And it’s not always a big thing but something that was meaningful to them.

      So, hope some of that helps!

    7. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I’m a remote worker for two organizations: the one that employs and pays me, and a volunteer organization that I do a lot of work for.

      I’m really happy with the one that employs and pays me. I go to the office once a week to physically check on the alpacas, but if I didn’t need to do that I would be fine with 100% remote. I rely a lot on email right now. If I were 100% remote I’d want Slack or equivalent even more than I already do, but my company doesn’t use it because many of my colleagues are older and not particularly tech-y. Mostly I care about having clear deliverables, a chill work culture, and accessible, friendly colleagues, and I get all that in spades. My boss is really great at telling me I’m doing a good job or letting me know about problems, and if we run into difficulties communicating in text, a quick phone call resolves it.

      I’m really unhappy with the organization I volunteer with and actually just wrote to the director saying I’m on the verge of quitting. Most people are local to a city that’s hundreds of miles from me, and it’s still run like a local organization. There are meetings once a month, and people who aren’t there can Skype in but the meeting space isn’t well set up for it, so I can’t really hear what people are saying. No one takes meeting minutes so I can’t catch up that way afterwards. Now there’s talk of scheduling some of the meetings on Saturdays, and I don’t work on Shabbat so that makes them totally inaccessible to me. What’s hardest is that the director NEVER tells ANYONE they’re doing a good job. She acts exasperated and disappointed all the time. She also often misses emails because her day job keeps her very busy. When I told her I felt unappreciated, she said she doesn’t think of thanking me because she already knows I’ll do a good job and it doesn’t surprise her or catch her attention when I do. I nearly threw my phone across the room when I read that email.

      So I think it’s much less about the frequency of check-ins (though what you’re describing sounds like a lot to me, way more than many remote-workers-by-choice will want because we are generally introverts who would like everyone to please be quiet) and much more about accessibility. Are you available when they have questions? Are your interactions warm and friendly? Are your video calls accessible to people whose disabilities interfere with being able to see/hear/process input from video and audio? Are you clear in text to make up for the lack of body language, and extra generous with feedback because there aren’t chance encounters where your employee can gauge your general mood?

      What will keep people engaged is treating them like people who have feelings and opinions that matter. (Including the opinion of “I don’t think we need all these meetings”, if that comes up.)

  21. DisappointedinDC*

    There might be an opportunity for me to go to another law firm in a month or so — huge, well-known firm with really good benefits and pay. I’d get approximately $11K more than what I make now (which: I like more money!) from what I’m told, if this offer becomes a reality – but would it be bad for me to go to another assistant role in a bigger firm for more money if I want to eventually move up in my career? I’m definitely not getting the experience I need to grow further where I currently am and the issue is that no one will look at my resume for the fields I want to grow into because I don’t have the experience.

    1. AccountantWendy*

      I think what you’re saying is that this would be a lateral move, so the real question is, does the other job offer opportunities for advancement? Did you ask in the interview “I am looking to gain experience in X and Y….does this role offer opportunities to work on X and Y?”

      1. DisappointedinDC*

        This wasn’t an interview — my old Office Administrator works at Big Law Firm now as the HR director, and she mentioned the possibility of something opening up there at the end of next month.

        1. AccountantWendy*

          Well, then you should apply and ask about it in an interview if it does manifest! Wanting to move on from a job because you want to grow in a certain direction is a normal and expected reason. If it’s a move to the same sort of position, that’s your opportunity to ask if the same work at a larger firm offers the opportunities you’re looking for. Maybe it doesn’t – in which case the money may or may not be worth it on its own.

          If you aren’t getting the experience you need in your current role, it sounds like moving on is the correct step no matter the outcome of this specific opportunity, to a role that offers the chance to gain the experience you need.

    2. 867-5309*

      A “lateral” title move to a larger company is often seen as a step-up. As noted below, you can also ask about advancement and if there will be a chance to work on x and y, to help grow your skills.

      1. DisappointedinDC*

        This is a good point. I would think there would be more room for growth at a larger firm and it would give me more opportunities. If this does come to pass I’ll absolutely ask that question.

  22. philosophical_conversation*

    This is my third year at my current job and I just need an “Is this normal/do I have a right to be annoyed” check.
    For the past couple years, my office has been closed from the Friday before Christmas until January 2. 3 of those days are holidays (24th, 25th, and 1) and the rest of the days we have to take as vacation, borrow vacation from the next year, or are unpaid. I’ve always been fine with this and because of the shutdown and the way that the holidays fall this year, the office is shut down for a full 10 days and we are required to take 7 days vacation. Now I’ve got no problem taking these days off, I was planning on taking this time off anyways.
    However, we were just told that the office will be closed the whole week of Thanksgiving this year as well so I’ll have to take another 3 vacation days. This is coming after an unexpected shutdown in July where we had to use 3 more vacation days and was only given a month’s notice.
    All in all, 13 of my 15 yearly vacation days will have been taken up by these shutdowns. Am I right to feel a little annoyed by this or is this somewhat normal?

    1. Kiki*

      Everywhere I’ve worked, days the office is closed are considered holidays and I did not need to use vacation time to get that time off. I was salaried, so it didn’t affect my pay. I’m not sure how it affected hourly folks, though.

      1. CMart*

        Yes, this is how my company that does a holiday shutdown works as well. We get two weeks vacation, and then the days between Christmas and New Year are just extra paid holiday days. Same with the day after Thanksgiving.

        My understanding of hourly/represented workers was that it was similar – built in paid holidays (8hrs/day).

      2. Flyleaf*

        Yes, essentially the OP is given 2 vacation days and 13 company holidays. That is not the same as 15 vacation days.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I think it varies industry by industry, but I would be very annoyed if my office closed down and I was forced to use vacation/unpaid days that often.

    3. Arctic*

      That is absolutely ridiculous.
      The Christmas-New Year thing is becoming fairly common. Although I still think forced vacation days is ridiculous even then. It is common to close the day after Thanksgiving now but most don’t make you take a vacation day for that. But to do all of it?! That is just unacceptable.

    4. Natalie*

      How are your organization’s finances? Adding two shutdowns (especially an unexpected one) makes me wonder if they’re having cash flow problems.

      I think it’s completely reasonable to be annoyed that you suddenly have multiple mandatory days off that are coming out of your pocket one way or another.

      1. philosophical_conversation*

        Oh, there’s definitely cash flow problems. At the beginning of the year, I was expecting them announce a a week’s “vacation” unpaid or something along those lines. It doesn’t make sense to me that they’re forcing everyone to use vacation days. The only thing they’re saving on is facilities costs for the week which can’t be all that significant in the big picture.

        1. Natalie*

          Sort of, but it’s the same expense for them one way or another, and it reduces the vacation liability they’re carrying on their books.

      2. Hope*

        This is what I would be worried about (in addition to the ridiculousness that is using nearly all of your vacation days for shutdowns). Is your org doing okay?

        Also, has anyone pointed out that it’s 13 of 15 total vacation days being taken up by these shutdowns? It literally may not have occurred to people higher up with more vacation days that this is so much of your vacation time.

        1. philosophical_conversation*

          Yeah, my org isn’t doing too great right now, but I’m not too concerned about the long-term. My business group is well-known player in a really niche industry that’s had massive growth in recent years and isn’t going away anytime soon. It operates pretty much on it’s own and due to the nature of my job I’m in a really good position to leave if I choose (even though I don’t want to, because I love what I do, my work environment, and my coworkers). Also, literally of half my direct group is at or within a couple years of retirement age and it takes a solid four years to train a new college grad to become independent at this position so I’m pretty safe in terms of job security.

    5. Brownie*

      My workplace does the same thing, the touted 3 weeks vacation is actually around 1.5 weeks because of the use of vacation for the winter holiday shutdowns. In my opinion it’s a jerk move, the company saves money by stripping employees of their vacation unless they take the option of being unpaid for a week or more. You’re very right to be annoyed.

    6. That'll happen*

      I would be super annoyed by this. You basically have 2 personal days and that’s it. My opinion is companies should not penalize employees for what is a business decision. My job started making us use a half-day of vacation for Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve last year (I work at a medical office and now they close at noon on those days) and I was very annoyed by just that!

    7. CheeryO*

      No, that’s not normal or okay. The Christmas shutdown, sure, I’ve seen that a lot before, but typically you would still have at least one, if not two, full weeks of vacation/personal time to take as you please. You all need to push back on this as a group.

    8. Nym*

      It’s normal in some industries.

      I’d be absolutely ecstatic with a deal like that, I’d take 13 extra days unpaid leave on top of 15 days paid in a heartbeat.

      I’m at 24 days paid now, the statutory minimum in my country, and I could really use a week or two more! I’ll probably to switch to part time in a year or two for those sweet extra days off. (I’m senior management)

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        Nym, I think the OP gets a total of 15 days paid holiday in a year and has to use them for office closings so gets just 2 holiday days this year. That is far from 24 days!!

        1. philosophical_conversation*

          Both are kind of correct. I get 15 paid vacation days a year, 10 paid scheduled holidays, and this year I have to take 13 specific days as either vacation or unpaid. Theoretically, I could take/have taken the 13 days unpaid so I would get a total of 38 days off (15 paid, 13 unpaid, 10 paid scheduled holidays), take those 13 days as vacation for a total of 25 days off (13 specific shutdown vacation days, 2 additional vacation days, 10 paid scheduled holidays) or have some combination of paid and unpaid (which is what I’ll likely end up doing this year, taking 11 days vacation on the specific shutdown days, 2 days unpaid, 2 additional vacation days, plus the scheduled holidays).

          The Christmas shutdown is pretty standard for my industry, but the Thanksgiving and July ones are not.

          1. philosophical_conversation*

            But I did want to add in the caveat that we’re discouraged from taking the days unpaid so even though we technically can, it’s quite a process to get it approved if you have vacation time remaining.

    9. smoke tree*

      The Christmas shutdown is pretty much universal in my industry, and because I work in the arts, it’s pretty much always unpaid. I personally don’t mind it because my work is very project based and this is one of the few times everyone can actually take time off because no one else is working. But I can see how those extra forced shutdowns would get annoying. It starts to feel like your vacation days are all mandated by the company.

    10. Oh No She Di'int*

      I used to work under a similar situation. We used to call it our “forced vacation” every year around Christmas. The place had enough other benefits that we never raised much of a fuss.

      However, now that I own my own business, I have refused to institute this sort of policy. I think vacation time should be yours to do with as you please. We don’t give big bucket loads of vacation time here, but what we do give is absolutely yours.

    11. Librarian of SHIELD*

      My sister’s office closes for the week between Christmas and New Years, but they do it by not taking holidays during the year, like Presidents’ Day or Memorial Day, so the money they would have spent paying staff for those holidays is spent at the end of the year instead. My own workplace used to close for Columbus Day, but a few years back we traded it for the day after Thanksgiving. Do you have the ear of anybody in your management structure that you could suggest something like this to?

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, that’s what we basically do. We don’t have any holidays at the beginning of the year (MLK, President’s Day, Good Friday) and those sort of jump to the time between Christmas and New Year’s. But I know some divisions of our company force vacation pay/unpaid time off to account for that week instead of using the early year holidays.

        It wouldn’t bother me too much since I’d take that time off anyway, but I can see if I only have two days off the rest of the year, that would be a problem, because you can’t do much with only two days.

    12. Free Lab Rat*

      My previous job had the same thing… except I was a contractor so I had 0 days in vacation and always had to take it unpaid, it was one of the main reasons I left, I would see your situation the same as only having 2 days of vacation aka a terrible deal

    13. Earthwalker*

      Normal for manufacturing if company policy says that vacation/PTO can be carried over to the next year. In a bad year, when they need to do something to improve the bottom line, they can get rid of the vacation pay liability with a shutdown. It’s scheduled in a holiday week when so many employees would be taking time off anyway that those left behind wouldn’t get much done. Long time employees usually save up enough vacation days that they can cover a few weeks of this sort of surprise in a year and still be able to make family week at the beach and have a few days left over in case of flu, but such shutdowns can be nasty for new employees who must spend all their vacation this way and can’t make their own plans or stay home if they’re sick. Holiday shutdown tends to raise hackles when it’s announced too late to make family plans or get decent airfares, leaving employees stuck at home staring at the snow and regretting the week they won’t have for a great vacation next year. But in manufacturing, holiday shutdowns are a fact of life. (Back to Alison’s subject earlier this week, the possibility of a holiday shutdown is another reason people don’t take all their vacation. Managers scold employees for irresponsible planning if they haven’t enough vacation time saved for a shutdown, even if “ten days off at Christmas” isn’t announced until mid-December.)

    14. Anon with no name*

      Where I work if the office is closed it’s considered a Holiday and you don’t use vacation time. We’ve had a few times when the Boss decided to give everyone a Friday off to make an extra long weekend because the coming Monday was already a Holiday) and anyone who had already scheduled that Friday as a vacation day was given back the day and it was another Holiday day for everyone.

    15. tamarack and fireweed*

      At my employer, there is a similar policy in place — we are closed from Dec. 25 to Jan 2 or 3 (depending on the year), but the way this works out is that we have to take THREE days either leave without pay or PTO (our choice). Not more. Three days leads to mild grumbling, but is kinda-sorta accepted in our culture. If it was more, or if there was another such period at another time, the grumbling would increase exponentially.

      Frankly, 3 weeks of paid time off out of which all but 2 days HAS to be taken during these periods (if you want full pay) does not sound reasonable to me, and I would think it’s a case for Alison’s “push back as a group” approach.

  23. MsPantaloons*

    Does anyone have any suggestions on using a personal phone for both work and personal use? As in, throughout the workday, it’s my only phone.

    I feel like I’m constantly trying to toggle off work email when I’m home and personal stuff at work, and scared I’m going to forget and miss something important (or miss a work call simply because I’ve trained myself to ignore my cell during working hours).

    Any settings, apps, or ideas are welcome! It’s an iPhone if that matters.

    1. WorkingGirl*

      Can you turn off push notifications for work email? Also, look into a Google Voice number to use for work purposes- I think you can set it to automatically go to voicemail after a certain hour.

    2. Miss Fisher*

      Luckily I don’t get too many personal calls. Everyone just texts me. Typically what I have found is that I always answer as, Joe Sschmo Bank, this is Fran, it helps when it is a work call. If its personal, typically spam, I can then use this as an excuse to say they have a work or wrong # and not call back. If it is someone I know, they still know it is me.

    3. Joielle*

      Personally, I’d use the do not disturb setting at home and not worry too much about personal stuff coming through at work. You can set it so that calls from your “favorites” come through even if do not disturb is on.

      If they’re making you use your personal phone at work, they have to expect that it’s going to have your personal stuff on it!

    4. Coffeelover*

      I turned off all my notifications for all apps and messengers – both private and business. That way I have to actively check if someone has contacted me rather than getting the interrupting notification. Then it’s about discipline to not check in too frequently (I never check work email after hours). Calls are a bit harder though. Maybe if you completely stop answering private calls during work hours, you’ll eventually train your friends and family to only contact you at lunch/after work? Really though I don’t think an occasional 5min private call at work is a huge interruption.

    5. Llellayena*

      Change the ringtone. Anyone on your personal contact list gets ringtone A, everyone else gets ringtone B. You’ll know as soon as the phone rings which category and can change your response to it accordingly. (Non-contact list personal calls like car repair calls still need to be screened, but it’s less of a hassle)

      1. Public Health Nerd*

        Brilliant! My work Google Voice number forwards to my cell phone, so this will completely help me on the weekends to ignore work calls and let them go to voicemail.

  24. MissGirl*

    How do you rejected an offer but tell them you’d still be interested in another future role in a separate department?

    I got an email at eight last night from the recruiter I’ve been working with, telling me an offer is forthcoming but they’re ironing out the numbers. I got no sleep last night, knowing I have a big decision coming without the tools to actually make it.

    I’m really torn. The position would be a good step career-wise, but I’m concerned about an increased workload and the separation between off and on. I got emails last night from both the recruiter and hiring manager. They said on average people in the company are working 45 to 50 hours, but I think they’re their department might be on the high side. Minus the info about the salary, the pro and con list is running fairly even.

    I interviewed last year for a product development role at the same company versus client facing, which is what this is. I got a better vibe from my interviews with them. Plus, this one has a degree of travel. If I do turn it down, what’s the best way to do that and keep the door open for a position on the other side?

    1. juliebulie*

      I think you can just say no, say you’re sorry and explain why. Or, don’t tell them why at all. I doubt that it will count against you if you happen to apply there again, especially if it is for a different position.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I disagree with the last bit. If I knew my company had someone get to the offer stage, decline without saying why, and then apply for a new position later I would be much less likely to consider them as a serious candidate. If I had someone get to the offer stage, decline with an explanation and apply for another position later that they had explained their interest in, I wouldn’t hold it against them and might even consider them a strong candidate based on what I had seen.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Literally say that. “Thank you for your offer but I have to decline because xyz. However I’m still interested in abc and would love to talk again if a position opens up.”

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      You could mention a couple of your cons as reasons you don’t want this particular position. That will let them know that if they have other positions that are a better fit they could reach out.

      Are they the kind of company that would move you to a new position if you took this one and one you liked better opened up? If so, I might take it just to get in the door if the salary makes sense for the cons you’d be taking.

    4. MissGirl*

      Thanks everyone. The recruiter scheduled a call for Monday. I wish he hadn’t told me anything unless he had an offer ready. Now I’m going to stress all weekend.

      1. On Hold*

        I deal with that kind of thing by nailing down all aspects that I can (for example, this one might be a bit of a flow chart – offer below $X is definitely no, between $X and $Y is maybe but bring up the cons and see what you can work around, above $Y is probably yes as long as you get the right answers on a, b, and c…)… and then, once you’ve done everything you can, just walk away. Write it down if that helps get it out of your head. Go to the movies, do groceries, whatever your normal thing is. If it floats back up, remind yourself “I’ve already worked through this, it’s all written down for the call on Monday” and set it down again.

  25. Remote Work*

    Does anyone have a mental formula for the perceived value of partial remote work? As in, “I would take X less money for one remote day a week, Y less money for two remote days a week” and so on. I know I can calculate gas/tolls/etc., but I’m more wondering how you set numbers for the more intangible benefits of remote work.

    1. blink14*

      I personally wouldn’t take anything less in salary for remote work. Yes, your commute is non-existent, but you are using your own electricity, your own internet, potentially your own printer and computer, phone, office supplies, etc.

      There is a trade off, but it shouldn’t be reflected in salary in this manner. I would more think of it as – Job A is offering $10k less than Job B, but Job B is 2 hours away, can I live with the salary of Job A since it would cut back on commute time and cost?

      1. valentine*

        The benefits of remote work will eventually become your baseline, unless you set aside the commuting and other costs, they won’t be savings, just differently spent, and, no matter what you do, no one’s going to benefit more than the company.

    2. Never Nicky*

      I work remotely full time (bar a monthly trip to HQ) and when other opportunities come up, I add to my current annual salary:
      Annual travel costs minus what I currently spend on HQ visits
      For each office day:
      travel time in hours x basic hourly rate
      cost of a basic lunch (sandwich + drink/snack) (due to lack of time/energy)

      So far, for jobs in my grade/field, I haven’t found anything that would be worthwhile!

    3. Federal Middle Manager*

      Working remotely would save me approximately two hours a day in commute, but wouldn’t save me any money (employer comps our transit passes). It would only be “worth it” to me if I really committed to using those hours differently (currently I browse the web on my phone). If I ended up taking an exercise class or committing to a hobby in that time, it’s very likely that working remotely would cost me money rather than saving! But time is valuable in it’s own right. It’s something only you can decide.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      What is your wardrobe like? How many appointments do you tend to have (for yourself or home service/repairs)? Those kinds of appointments that you can flex into a WFH situation vs having to take a half day of PTO and/or all the extra driving. Prep for work time? If your morning routine on a work day is an hour, but on the weekends/WFH it’s only 30 minutes, that adds up.

    5. OhBehave*

      Do not discount your pay. You are still doing the work you would do on site. If they are asking you to do so, think again!
      Intangibles? Those would be of value to you only. Maybe the fact that you would work while sick? Your still eating lunch whether at home or office (brown bag).
      Again, I would not offer this or require it of an employee.

    6. CM*

      I agree with the people who say your work is worth the same thing no matter where you do it, but, in a situation where you’re looking at new job offers and not trying to modify an existing job, I do think it can balance out so that a lower-level job that pays less but lets you work remotely can be a better deal than a higher level job that pays more but requires you to be there in person. It depends on how you weight that stuff.

      So, if the question is, “Should I take a pay cut at my current job in order to work from home one day a week?” the answer is obviously no. But if the question is, “When I’m weighing different job options, how heavily should I weigh remote work as part of the overall value being offered?” that totally depends on how much you want to work remotely.

      I don’t have a formula, but I have certain thresholds in mind where a job starts to seem like a good deal to me. So, if the amount of money I need to sustain myself and pay my bills is $X, then a job that lets me work from home seems like a pretty good deal if it pays at least $X, but a job that requires me to go downtown every day only becomes a good deal if it pays $X+$20K. That’s not based on anything except listening to my emotions and noticing the point at which I get less mad at the subway.

      For me, working remotely one day a week has almost no value, so the threshold is still $X+20K. Working remotely four days a week would probably drop it to $X+$10K.

      It’s not math, though, it’s just feelings.

    7. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      My time is worth the same amount no matter where I’m working from. It would never occur to me to take less money to work from home. My company is saving money by not having a desk for me and outsourcing my physical location to my home, which I pay rent on. They can enjoy that savings and keep paying me the same salary.

    8. new4this*

      Don’t negotiate down. You are paid the same whether you walk 10 seconds or drive 2 hours to be at that desk. Now, for me, it was a different equation when I had to be enticed to leave a flexible, WFH job to sit at the desk in “their” office 4 days a week. That – that would require a 50% raise for me to give up my 2 hours a day (that the commute would take).

      But the work? The work I do is worth the $XX an hour they pay me (and it is a nice XX), whether I do it at their desk or mine. They save money when they don’t have to pay rent on a bigger building, for the water to flush the toilet, and the lights and heat, on their side. I, on the other hand, have to turn up the heat during the days I’m here, turn on the lights, and use my own water and toilet paper. I rent a bigger place so I can have a quiet home office.

      I don’t give them a discount. They’ve already saved their money. They get to keep me working for them, and not taking my skills elsewhere by being flexible with me. LOL.

      It’s a completely different way of looking at it, but try viewing it through that lens.

  26. Foreign Octopus*

    For those with a knowledge of the Irish system, would I be classed as a freelancer or self-employed?

    I work as an ESL teacher via an online teaching platform. I’m responsible for my own taxes and they don’t provide me with students but they do provide me with access to students. There’s no contract between me and the platform. I can teach as much or as little as I like.

    In Spain, I’m an autonomo but I don’t know how that translates to Ireland. Can anyone help me?

    1. Anonymous Rex*

      I don’t know the Irish or Spanish system, but in the US this is a fact-intensive analysis that depends on a number of factors. The Irish system may be different, but if you want to rely on the answer in some way (e.g., when paying taxes), I would recommend consulting a lawyer.

      Sorry, I know that’s not terribly helpful–but the costs of getting it wrong can be significant (in the US at least).

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        That’s all right, it’s something worth bearing in mind.

        I’ve got a couple of months before I need to worry about it, but it does work differently in Ireland. In Spain I need to declare my tax every three months and pay something but then I get money back at the end of the year. The way I understand it in Ireland is that I pay nothing for the first year but pay twice in the second, so I’ve probably got some breathing room to figure it out.

    2. Milton’s Red Swingline*

      Well, a freelancer is classed as self-employed, so well no fine.

      Theres a good article on spunout.ie on ”declaring tax as a freelancer”, also citizensinformation.ie and revenue.ie have pretty clear information regarding self-employment and the steps to take. What you establish yourself as is then a different question, a ’sole trader’ would be more or less the equivalent of ’autonomo’.

      (putting the links separate)

  27. Sandwich*

    I’m on the cusp of a health diagnosis that’s been a long time coming. It will require specialist appointments, a quick outpatient surgery, and then physical therapy appointments thereafter (probably weekly). However, I start a brand new job in two weeks. Anyone have any ideas on the best way to navigate this? I want to make a good impression at my new job and not ask for crazy amounts of time off, but I also need to take care of myself. Also- I already needed to ask for two weeks off for an upcoming vacation that had been pre-planned. So, how should I approach this? The timing is unfortunate- especially since I wasn’t able to get any appointments before starting my new job to get the ball rolling.

    1. blink14*

      I was in a similar position when starting my current job – I knew surgery was coming, with a long recovery period, but I didn’t know exactly when or how long I would be out. As soon as I accepted the job, I alerted my boss to the situation and kept her updated. I ended up having the surgery about 4 months after I started, and was out for about 5 weeks (3 of those weeks working part time from home).

      The good news here is that your surgery will be outpatient, and your recovery time will be spread out. I actually wouldn’t say anything in this case until you know for sure what the situation is. Start going to your specialist appointments, and plan from there – your surgery could end up being 6 months from now, you don’t know yet. A lot of physical therapy centers offer early morning or late hours (I did mine at the god awful hour of 6 am for about 5 months, 3 times a week). I go to a lot of doctor appointments for chronic health issues, and I always try to schedule my appointments first thing in the morning or last appointment of the day. Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        If you knew this before asking for the vacation and you’ll need postop time off due to being on medication or what have you, it may call your priorities into question. I’ve had colleagues who didn’t understand that being out for illness meant I needed my vacation more, and it wouldn’t have even been real vacation, just a possibility of climbing back to zero. To them, leave was leave (and that’s what I should’ve done).

    2. Dotty*

      It sounds like you notified them of the 2-week vacation when you accepted the offer. This is normal and you shouldn’t worry further about it. The medical stuff I would just talk to your manager about once you know more about it (i.e. after the diagnosis, once you have surgery & PT scheduled). “I’ll need to take a sick day on X date. I’ll also be taking 2 hours (or whatever) per week of sick leave for the next X weeks for medical appointments.” Or you can say PT if you’re comfortable with that.

  28. merp*

    Was just told that despite being asked to fix the way we do library stats (which is currently ridiculous), the **terrible** patron satisfaction survey (designed by someone higher up who does not work the desk at all) is more or less untouchable. Because they want our survey to match and be usable for other divisions, which as we all know, is what makes surveys the most useful: make them vague enough to apply to everyone.

    I work for the state so this battle will be a bureaucracy one – any tips on arguments that might reach admin’s ears? Somehow I think that telling them it would make any UX person cry is not going to help.

    1. OtterB*

      I ran into a similar situation as a user with an online survey about my public library’s website. Because I do a lot of survey work, I believe in survey karma and so I try to answer other people’s but sometimes they irritate me so much I give up. This one irritated me because it was generalized for the entire county government’s website and therefore asked satisfaction questions completely irrelevant to “Dude, I just wanted to check when my books are due.”

      So that’s one possible argument: The survey questions are not relevant to your patrons and/or it’s not clear how they apply to them (because they are so generalized) and therefore you’ll get a low response rate.

      Another argument could be that the questions don’t give you actionable information (because they are so generalized that they are too vague).

      You can still get useful information out of some of these if you also have space for comments where people can put specifics.

    2. new kid*

      I would try to determine their logic for why the a single-source survey is needed and then speak to that directly. They don’t want to maintain your survey plus the standard? Here’s our plan for maintenance that adds no work to any other department. The survey tool is licensed and they don’t want to give your department access? Here’s a proposal for a free tool that meets all our same specs.

      It’s sometimes hard to figure out what the logic might be for decisions that seem illogical to begin with but I’ve found that the more you can guess at any hypothetical concerns and address them directly, the more successful you’ll be. Good luck!!

    3. NaoNao*

      I’d dig up research on how better surveys mean better, cleaner, more usable data that can save you money/reduce costs or even increase revenue.

      I’d really focus on data that shows how you can use tweaked surveys to directly impact your bottom line. I’d offer to keep the general survey in place but also put out other specific surveys or focus groups.

      I’d also offer to redo the survey for all departments, frankly, that’s how serious I personally am about good surveys!

    4. Federal Middle Manager*

      I’d go for a smaller, targeted but unofficial survey at a local branch and compare the results. Show that if you ask relevant questions, you get relevant answers.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you want to argue effectively, I think you have to sit in their chair and look at things from their perspective.

      So to do this, I guess I would ask more detailed questions about how they use the survey results. When they say, “Well we need to know how many teapots you produced…” then you can say, “We’re a library we have never made teapots and have no plan for making teapots. So our teapot productivity is always going to be poor. Is there a way we can stop counting the teapots we don’t have?”
      Or going the other way, “The people we serve don’t come in looking for teapots. They are looking for books and other reading materials.” It can be daunting to have to make statements of the obvious. Practice in front of the mirror until you don’t lose your cool.

      You can probably find an example of a good patron survey online. Or perhaps you can make your own. Show them what a relevant survey would look like.
      If you know one person is a stumbling block on this point, perhaps you can figure out who this person listens to and talk to this intermediary person.

      As I am thinking about this, the problem may be that someone did not want to create customized surveys. They wanted to do one survey, be done with it and move on to other things. You may get a surprise that they will take a survey you created simply because they did not have to create it themselves.

  29. Anonymous Editor*

    Hey, everyone! I wanted to get others’ thoughts to see if I’m way off base here. I was recently promoted within my company, and another person, Jane, accepted a position on the same team at the same time. We’ve both been on the team for a couple of months. Earlier this week, Jane announced that she’s leaving the company to accept a new position with another local business. She said she was contacted by a recruiter when she was in the interview process for her current position.
    Am I wrong to think this is pretty unprofessional? I understand the desire to take a new opportunity, but in my mind she should have either not accepted the offer for her current role if she was interested in the new company or taken herself out of the running for the new job when she accepted this job. Am I crazy?

    1. The Francher Kid*

      I wouldn’t say you’re crazy, but I do wonder whether you’re taking this too personally. If I’m interpreting this correctly, Jane “was in the interview process for her current position,” which tells me she hadn’t been offered or accepted her current position when she was also interviewing with the other company. She was, in effect, interviewing for two new jobs. As people do. Companies can take a long time to make up their minds so she may have had no idea whether she’d be accepted for new job when she took the one on your team. Sounds to me like she made the best decision she could in both instances. People leave jobs for better opportunities all the time. It’s not unprofessional, it’s life.

      1. Anonymous Editor*

        Definitely possible I’m taking it personally. She was essentially interviewing for two roles, but she accepted a role and then continued to interview.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She hedged her bets. If she had no idea that she would be offered the job, I truly see nothing wrong with this. Going further, even if she thought she would get the job, I still don’t see anything wrong here.

          We don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe she let your boss know about the new offer in hopes of a counter-offer and your boss could not come up with a better counter.

          For myself, if I were in your shoes, I would be thinking about how great it was to have this new job. Suddenly, Jane is leaving what I have defined as a great thing. It might make me pause and say, “You burst my balloon. I thought this was a great thing and now by leaving you are kind of showing me it’s not as great as I thought.” Grass is always greener and all that.

          I used to play cards with my father, this was the human computer guy. I was probably going to lose. Sometimes he would say, “I feel so bad for you, you have crappy cards.” He KNEW what was in my hand! It took a while, but I finally figured out, he did NOT know how I was going to play those crappy cards. I took the hand I was dealt and played it to my best. Sometimes I actually beat the human computer guy. Not because I was so very smart, but because I was strategic and grabbed all the opportunities I could find.
          So her actions told you, she thinks your job is worth leaving. What she doesn’t know is how well you can play that hand you have been dealt. Keep thinking of your job as having many opportunities, be vigilant and grab those opportunities. If you make the best of what you have, then YOU win.

          1. Samwise*

            Or even– the cards she got are bad for *her*, but for *you* they’re a great hand. Maybe she realized, hmm, I’m a canasta player and this is a poker game, better get out of this game now.

    2. MissGirl*

      I wouldn’t call it unprofessional; maybe not the best timing. It doesn’t sound like her other offer had come for the other job when she accepted the promotion. No job is guaranteed and it wouldn’t make sense for her to turn down the promotion on the chance the other came through.

      1. Anonymous Editor*

        I probably should have clarified–the role on my team was a demotion for her, not a promotion.

        1. Confused*

          In that case it makes a lot of sense for her to leave. Why would she want to stay in a position that was a demotion?

          1. Anonymous Editor*

            Well, she pursued the job. No one put her in it. Her old position was not eliminated and she was looking to move to a new area of the business. And she didn’t lose any pay, just went down a level. (Weird, but that’s how it works at my company.)

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Sounds to me like she wanted out of your company altogether, decided to take a position a step down from where she was since it was the first available thing she could get, and then when she was selected for her new job, she jumped ship since that was her plan all along. It sucks for your manager, and it is kind of unprofessional, but it also happens a lot.

            2. tamarack and fireweed*

              Then it makes even more sense to me. She wanted change, and she even accepted a demotion to get closer to where she wanted to be at her current employer. That there was another opportunity she pursued elsewhere (which she may have regarded a long shot, especially if it’s also in that area she doesn’t have much of a track record in) is neither here nor there. People pursue opportunities, and sometimes the timing works out suboptimal.

        2. The Francher Kid*

          If the role on your team was a demotion for her, I would not be surprised at all that she continued to interview and then left. I don’t know Jane’s circumstances that led her to take a demotion in the first place (was her previous position about to be eliminated?), but it’s unreasonable to think that she’d pass up a better job to continue with your company. As MissGirl said, the timing was unfortunate but people leave jobs all the time.

          1. Anonymous Editor*

            She pursued the new role because she wanted to move to another area of the business. And it wasn’t a demotion in pay, just in level. Her old position was not eliminated and she was well regarded there.

        3. valentine*

          I don’t blame her. You think she should have stayed in her previous role and not taken the demotion? Unless you hired her for the demoted role, I don’t see why you would take it personally. Why does it mean so much to you?

          1. Anonymous Editor*

            I… think you may be reading anger into this that doesn’t exist. I’m mildly annoyed because our team is already overworked and we’ll have to pick up her workload.

          1. Anonymous Editor*

            Eh, I could have seen it if it was a demotion she was forced into, but she actively pursued the new role. Her old job is secure and has been filled, and she was well regarded in her old role.

          1. Anonymous Editor*

            She wasn’t forced to demote. She pursued the position enthusiastically because she wanted to work in another area of the business. It was a demotion in level only and not in pay.

            1. As Close As Breakfast*

              You’ll never really know her why she pursued and took the demotion position at your company. I mean, I could smile and be enthusiastic and definitely convince every single person I interacted with that I really, really, REALLY, wanted this new job to get to work in another area of the business because It. Is. All. I. Have. EVER. WANTED!!!!! All the while I’m really dying inside because I hated my job, or my boss, or a coworker, or the company, or whatever. Is the new job she’s now taking in the same area of the business that the demotion position was at your company? Is it at the same level or higher?

              Don’t get me wrong, as a coworker or hiring manager I’d be kind of annoyed too. Try to internally roll your eyes and not take it personally.

        4. Samwise*

          Oh well, then, completely understandable. The role on your team may have been the best offer she had at the time, but of course she does not want a demotion if she can get a lateral or promotion.

    3. Clementine*

      Obviously the new role wasn’t as great as Jane hoped it would be. So she left for one that she thought she would like better. It happens all the time.

    4. smoke tree*

      From the outside, it doesn’t seem like the smartest move on Jane’s part, since it’s liable to leave her manager(s) with a negative impression. I have to wonder if she was desperate to leave her old job as quickly as possible, since otherwise I’m not sure why should would both pursue a demotion and leave that job almost immediately.

    5. LilacLily*

      Iif I had to guess, I’d say Jane was more or less on the same position I am right now: she was unhappy at her role and was looking at leaving that particular role, but not necessarily the company. she began job searching because it wouldn’t hurt, but at the same time, she had no idea if the job search would bear any fruits, so she kept on with her office life as she would if she didn’t have anything else lined up.

      and honestly, she probably didn’t! I doubt Jane knew for sure that the job she ended up accepting was a sure thing by the time she accepted the internal transfer, and she was rightfully afraid to say no to the internal transfer and then not get the job offer she ended up getting – which means she’d still be stuck at a job that made her miserable for god knows how much longer.

      and the fact that the new job in your company was a demotion for Jane confirms to me that at some level she was unhappy with what she was doing and was trying to find something new/better either within the company or outside. she took the internal job because she had no idea if she would get an offer from the other jobs she’d applied to, and then she got an offer, the offer was evidently better than her current job, and she decided to accept it.

      I understand it sucks for her to leave right after accepting the transfer, but

      1. LilacLily*

        oops my finger slipped and I hit submit before I could finish!

        I understand it sucks for her to leave right after accepting the transfer, especially because you mentioned the workload is heavy and you’re all gonna suffer with one less person on the team, but this was an internal transfer. yes, she did apply to get the job and she had to go through interviews and whatnot, but it’s not like she’d just started at a brand new company, went through the whole affair and paperwork of being hired, then left the employer in the dirt: you all know Jane, you know her work and you all like her. it’s unfortunately she’s leaving, of course, but like Alison says, that’s just part of doing business; people leave all the time and companies work around it.

        if it means anything I’m sorry that work is gonna suck for a while :( I know how it is to be in a team where everyone is being overworked because there are several vacancies that need to be filled. I hope you guys find a good replacement soon!

    6. Samwise*

      Yes, you’re over-reacting a bit.

      When she was interviewing for the current job, she didn’t HAVE the current job. It was completely reasonable for her to follow up with the recruiter at that time. It’s foolish to stop looking at other jobs just because one is interviewing for one job.

      After she took her current position, she should have stopped interviewing, unless she realized pretty quickly that the current job was not going to work out. Better to leave quickly than to hang around. Possibly she stopped her search but this other job was considering her in the meantime.

  30. Amber Rose*

    I’m falling apart. I’m up all night with health problems, and then struggling to keep myself awake all day at work. Coffee and munchies only help so much. I’m making dumb mistakes all over the place. How do you keep an exhausted, failing body upright and functional for 8 hours? D:

    Also I seem to have side slipped into the Soap Opera dimension, what with the embezzling, arresting, C level firing, backstabbing, accusations and everyone crying all the time or threatening to quit because of straight up mismanagement of everything. Plus pizza party! I believe the workplace pizza party is a meme now.

    But I’ll tell you what we need: Guacamole Bob. It turns out our US folk expense everything. Every morning Starbucks, every lunch, every box of donuts. Everything. Like $1000 a month. If we’re appalled, poor Bob would probably explode.

    1. we're basically gods*

      If you’re exhausted all day, it may not help, but I like going for a walk whenever I feel the brain fog becoming unmanageable.
      You asked specifically for help staying awake, which makes me think you aren’t looking for advice on falling asleep– let me know if that’s inaccurate, because I do have some things that have helped me in the past.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I try to take a quick walk around the building when I can, but my job is so tied to my desk and I’m so tired that it’s tough sometimes. I’ll try harder.

        Falling asleep is fine. I got myself a weighted blanket a few months ago and I’ve never fallen asleep so easily. Staying asleep is what I can’t do.

        1. Hope*

          This may sound crazy, but have you tried a sleeping/eye mask? I used to have a lot of trouble staying asleep, but I tried using one a few weeks ago, and it’s been much easier to stay asleep since I started using one. It’s like a weighted blanket for your eyes.

            1. EH*

              That sucks! I have chronic pain and disrupted sleep, so I empathize. It can be brutal! Add in the drama, and good grief, what a nightmare.

              My workaround for fatigued-induced errors/mistakes has been making lists of everything. Procedures to follow when doing common stuff, etc. I’ve identified the areas I’m struggling with when my cognitive function is bad, and hunted for tips on dealing. For example, proofreading is a biggie. I always let something sit at least an hour before I proofread it, and when I’m really fried, I proof backward a sentence at a time (so, I read the last sentence of the thing to check for errors, then the next to last, etc until I’ve gone through the whole thing and reached the beginning).

              As for staying awake, I’m big on cold fizzy drinks and regular stretch breaks (even just a couple while sitting). I find posture makes a big difference for me, too – sitting up straight vs slouching in my desk chair. Standing up helps too, when my joints aren’t giving me grief. At home I have a sit/stand setup, so I have that option.

              Best of luck!

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Pain wakes you up.

              You know, dehydration really enhances pain. And coffee really enhances dehydration.

              You could do a thing where you don’t let yourself have more coffee until you have had x amount of water.
              Don’t answer here but just something to mull over, when I drink too much coffee and not enough water, the ol’ bowels don’t work like they should. Annnd I get even more pain.

              Maybe you could swap out one coffee for an herbal tea. I just plain like a hot drink, it’s soothing to me.
              But the core issue is that you have to keep yourself primed up by several means to go into work at this place that has a huge amount of problems. Perhaps you just need a new job in order to sleep at night. BTDT.

    2. Miss Fisher*

      Its all sort of a vicious cycle. You can’t sleep for reasons unknown, so you drink caffeine, which causes you to not sleep the next night and so on.

      I have found that getting up from my desk and just walking to get water or something helps. Also drinking lots of water and eating protein for breakfast instead of pastries etc. It also might help to get some super green powder. Trader Joes makes some. It has a ton of stuff that my mother swears gives her energy.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Oh, no. Caffeine has never impeded my ability to sleep. I don’t drink that much of it. I just need it to get past that morning desire to crawl into a hole and disappear.

        I don’t live in the US.

    3. Havarti*

      Wow, that really sucks. :(
      “How do you keep an exhausted, failing body upright and functional for 8 hours?”
      Past a certain point, you can’t. Maybe nap somewhere like in your car during lunch? I don’t know what you have to do this weekend but maybe try to sleep extra or take some days off to see if you can rest enough to sort of re-set things. Hopefully you can get the health problems to a more manageable level. I wish you luck!

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I had an employee who was in treatment for a long term medical condition, and she asked if she could bring in a comfortable chair to put in a rarely used storage room so she could sleep on her lunch break. It turned out to be a genius idea. If there’s any way you can find a space for a ~30 minute nap halfway through your day, it could help.

        Are you a gum chewer? I find that when I’m really fatigued a strong peppermint gum and a glass of cold water can perk me up for a little while.

    4. Quill*

      I managed this week’s jointmageddon by grabbing a WFH day. So far, despite having to fix the internet three times in three and a half hours (yes, really, I think Time Warner is out to get me) I’ve gotten about as much done today as I did all of yesterday…

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Can you take a siesta? I may be in the US, but my delight is a midday nap after lunch. 20 minutes of shut-eye recharges me when I’m tired.

    6. JustaTech*

      That sounds really hard. Both the exhaustion and the energy-sapping level of full-on Drama at the office.

      As much as no one wants Guacamole Bob, they’re going to like the alternative a whole lot less: most expensing privileges taken away and long, boring and bureaucratic trainings on what one may and may not expense. (I just sat through yet another training on how you may bring bagels on your sales visit to a doctor’s office, but not bagels and cream cheese, so I know how terrible those can be.) Hopefully you can nap through those trainings!

    7. Koala dreams*

      I’m not sure staying awake and not sleeping day or night is possible in the long run. If you can, take sick days after the worst nights and get some rest (not necessarily sleeping if you can’t, but doing restful things). Light exercise/moving around and eating fruit helps me stay awake, you can try it in the short run.

    8. Anono-me*

      Massage therapy might help with the stress and any muscle tension pain caused by healthy muscles ovcompensating for your health issue. LMaybe that would be enough to help you sleep better.)

  31. Frustrated Today*

    I really hate how long it can take to get rid of a problem employee.

    I’m somewhat new to the company and manage a long-timer. She’s so knowledgeable, driven, smart, hard-working, but it’s the personality that kind of makes all that a wash, and actually now a detriment to the department. Management (prior to me arriving) has done SO much for this person over the years, things that other people, even a few managers, don’t have. I even did a few things over the last eight months or so since these were things the previous person tried to push through and couldn’t (it was mostly at the request of my own manager that I do this). Does this person realize all that they have and what’s been done for them? Nope.

    It’s all come to a head and I’m BEYOND BEC stage (I know, that’s way overused) and just want to scream, “You’re fired!” But I don’t, because I’m a manager and I’m typically pretty even-keel. Plus I know that’s just not the way it should be done. My manager and HR both know I’m beyond done, and they’re realizing they are, too, and that no more efforts will be made to keep this person–if they go, they go.

    No question here really, just venting. I just want this to be over. I’m SO hoping this person goes, and soon. But if not, then it’s PIP time if the same behavior occurs again (the behavior that tipped me over the edge).

      1. Frustrated Today*

        Immaturity, taking things VERY personally, jumping to conclusions, gossiping, vindictiveness, so many emotional displays, harping on things even when it’s been explained by multiple people, things like that. Nothing has helped. It completely undermines her and people avoid her.

        1. fposte*

          FWIW, in the workplace I’d classify most of those as behaviors, not as personality. I think that’s where you’re running into trouble. Soft skills are still enumerable skills. She’s failing to accept feedback and to demonstrate professional demeanor, communication, and comportment in the workplace; it sounds like she may also be taking a disproportionate amount of energy to accept or understand explanations.

          She’s also making life hell for your other employees, as noted by softcastle, so I’d either PIP her on Monday or get the firing ready to go. If you go for a PIP, be very specific and draw on recent examples.

    1. softcastle*

      As someone who just escaped a department with a long-time problem employee, I want to let you know that it’s probably time to fire her. It can feel so frustrating (and downright degrading at times) to see a coworker who behaves badly and actively affects/disrupts the workplace to be rewarded with accommodations time and time again just because they complete their work effectively. In our case, it lowered morale so much that most of us were vigorously searching for jobs elsewhere. I’ve since been promoted to a different department, and the effects she had on me lingers on and I still feel frustrated that she remains despite multitudinous infractions (all the bath bombs and meditative candles aren’t making a dent in the grudge). It also makes it look like my former manager is protecting her, which in turn gives a bad impression on the manager’s judgment which is something I’ve heard talk of even in this different department.

      Is there a reason why you can’t fire her? If she’s actively, truly problematic, then the longterm effects of keeping her and accommodating her might be far more detrimental to the company.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        It’s not that I can’t fire her, I guess it’s more of not knowing how to go about it when it’s a personality issue vs. a work quality issue (see my comment above).

        You’ve hit it on the nose with your comments: several previous managers protected her and coddled her, kept the full extent of the behavior from my manager, behaved/behaves badly and got all sorts of accommodations that even some higher-level managers don’t have, much less others in the department.

        At this point, I don’t even think she could take a position in another department–she’s got a reputation.

        1. softcastle*

          That makes sense. Have her direct peers brought issues to your attention?

          Most of the things you’ve listed all seem like personality issues that would in fact affect work. How do they affect the day-to-day environment or flow? How has she reacted in the past when things like this are brought up? Things like vindictiveness, jumping to conclusions, and emotional displays can and do affect performance, even if things like deadlines and tasks are all met satisfactorily. For instance, an employee can be a very high performer, but once they start doing things like hoarding ideas or keeping things to themselves to “get credit” (these are all just examples), their value to the team decreases significantly. Just things to think about.

        2. Utoh!*

          We had one of those, she finally retired after 30+ years…the relief was palpable throughout the organization. It was the same situation, many complaints about her, but no one willing to actually DO anything. I hope you can figure out a way to move her out of your organization and soon. Soft skills cannot be taught (especially if the person without them thinks nothing is the matter and takes no responsibility for their part), everything else can!

          1. Frustrated Today*

            “Soft skills cannot be taught (especially if the person without them thinks nothing is the matter and takes no responsibility for their part), everything else can!”

            This is the conclusion we’ve all come to; the behaviors she displays, for the most part, are things that can’t necessarily be trained, or they would take therapy to improve (I know there are outside issues at play here; however, I know other people with these some issues and they don’t act this way at all). I feel like it would be hard to measure if she were on a PIP for those behaviors–it’s either you stop them or you don’t.

            And your person was RETIREMENT AGE? Oh man, I feel for you.

            1. Utoh!*

              Yes, I had to work with her for 15 of those 30+ years (she called my department constantly (IT), would never leave a message, just kept calling until someone picked up, and then ream out the person on the other end about her issue). I did not say goodbye to her, and don’t miss her AT all.

            2. fposte*

              I’m going to disagree slightly with this, in that you absolutely can train for soft skills; I do it all the time. That doesn’t mean you can train *this* employee on soft skills.

              That goes back to what I was saying upthread–don’t make this about “we can’t retrain somebody who is this way,” because people who are that way do indeed get retrained. Make it about “She’s not responding to coaching for improvement.” Again, it’s her behavior, not her inherent character.

              1. Frustrated Today*

                Ah, ok, I see the difference now. To be honest, I had to look it up online. I now see it’s behaviors that are the problem. Still though, we’ve tried and multiple others before me have tried (I got the whole rundown when I arrived), so that’s why we’ve come to the conclusion that nothing is going to change. And I’m the first one to say, “That’s it. No more.”

                1. fposte*

                  Oh, I absolutely believe that she’s not changing. I’m just trying to move you away from the “her personality doesn’t work” framing to the “She’s not responding to managerial instructions” framing. Because that’s what’s happening, and thinking of it that way will both make you a better manager generally and also, I think, help you feel better about making the disciplinary/termination decision here that needs to be made.

                2. NW Mossy*

                  While I’m not necessarily keen on all the different buzzy performance management jargon my own HR department dispenses from time to time, one recent change has been great for tackling just this sort of issue. They got very explicit about asking us to measure our employees on two axes (behavior and results), and making it clear that both are considered equally important to performance overall.

                  Separating the two and asking for ratings on each makes it SO much easier to understand and articulate why behavior matters, both to ourselves and the employee. We have a much better language now for “Hey, your results are top-notch, but your resistance to feedback, continued pursuit of settled issues, and outbursts towards other staff are leading to your low rating on behaviors. To get back in good standing, the behaviors need to change – the good results alone are not enough to be considered a high performer.”

                3. Observer*

                  So, that’s how you go about dealing with this. You have a set of behaviors that are problematic. If your company needs a PIP process, you list the problematic behaviors and you tell her that what she needs to show is that she can stop doing these things. And if she does them, she’s out the door.

                  If you don’t need the PIP, just document the behaviors and when you have enough documentation to make HR happy, show her the door.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  If you know where you are going, you do not have to do a comprehensive assessment of the situation. All you need is one or more major fails and you focus on those.
                  Here is an example. I had a guy working in our group. He was totally inappropriate. He said gross and violent things. (This was back when there was less violence in the news.) People were afraid of him. He did not do anywhere near a decent job PLUS he was late all the time.

                  There was so much wrong there it was daunting. This ended up being quite simple. “Be on time or you are fired!” We knew he could not be on time, he just did not have it in him to be on time. Sure enough, a few days later he was 20 minutes late. “bye!”

                  Pick 1-3 things that must be improved. Pick the biggest or most frequently occurring problems. Just talk about those. Track those. When she fails, “so, sorry, we have to let you go”.

                  Don’t try to correct all that is wrong here, narrow it down considerably. That is not your job to train her how to hold down a job. Your job is to protect the good workers from this person. If it means getting her out the door in the speediest way possible then that is what to do.

                  Back to my story. This guy was pretty scary. He did have a temper and if I went into a longer conversation with him it would be a disaster, like you show here. By choosing the tardiness issue, we had something concrete. If it’s 20 after 9 and he was due in at 9 there is NO arguing that point. In my setting, punctuality was an absolute necessity, everyone had to be on time, always. Done. Over.

            3. Koala dreams*

              That’s true for teaching everything, though. You can take a horse to water but not force it to drink and all that. If somebody doesn’t want to learn, they won’t.

        3. Akcipitrokulo*

          As said above – that isn’t personality. That is identifiable and specific behaviours. and you can absolutely name them.

          “you don’t get on well… I think there’s a personaility clash…” is hard to deal with.

          “In meeting you talk over other team members, interrupt and roll your eyes. You speaks in disparaging ways about team members’ personal lives, and I require that it stops” is OK!

        4. smoke tree*

          The fact that no one else would want to hire her is an indication that these issues are serious enough to fire over, right? It sounds like you’re trying to be fair to her, but this may be one of those situations where giving endless rope to a problem employee ends up being unfair to everyone else. Maybe it would help to reframe all of her behavioural issues as performance issues, since it sounds like they’re seriously getting in the way of her contributing to the team.

          1. Frustrated Today*

            Yeah, I’ve definitely have gone beyond the point I normally would have since it’s a long-timer, I’m still somewhat new-ish and I’ve had to take into consideration the fact that it was allowed to go on for so long. Had I hired her myself or she came into the department from another area, it would have given up months ago.

        5. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I think the difference between a personality or work quality issue is kind of a moot point. The ability to work well with your teammates is an essential requirement for most jobs. If you haven’t explicitly told her yet that it’s an essential requirement for HER job specifically, do that and start the PIP process. You’re not telling her she can’t *be* a certain person, you’re telling her she can’t engage in certain behaviors while she’s at work.

        6. Samwise*

          It really doesn’t matter *why* she does these things — personality, illness, unhappiness, basic a$$holishness, whatever — what matters is what she’s **doing**. Focus on that, ignore the why. If she can’t just be fired or you don’t want to just fire her, PIP and focus on the behaviors. These are all behaviors that people *can* change, they are not professional and counter-productive, and Problem Employee can either change them (which solves some of your problem) or not (which solves your problem because then you fire her).

          If she changes her behavior, you still will have to manage the consequences of her longterm misbehavior — people are not going to suddenly decide they want to work with her etc. So that will have to be managed.

          Or you and the higher ups may decide it’s not worth the work it will take to see if she will change and the work it will take even if she does change, in which case, you will have to fire her.

          IANA Manager, so I haven’t had to do this, but I’ve seen this sort of situation — I’ve been working a loooong time. The very worst thing you can do is to do nothing.

    2. Cheetos*

      Do we work at the same company? lol I currently work in an office with an individual like this who has, in fact, been disciplined in the past but the problems continue and make other people miserable. They won’t fire her because she’s been here a long time and carries a lot of weight in the office (i.e., she’s a good worker but a crap person to work with.) However, I’m through with it, and am interviewing for other positions. People like this drive away other people.

      So, yeah, you really needed to fire this person like, yesterday. I guarantee that he or she is driving away talent.

      1. softcastle*

        Totally. I was wishing this was my old boss commenting in but I know it’s not. Truly these sorts of individuals really ruin work for everyone else and drive good folks away when nothing is done about it for too long!

        1. Frustrated Today*

          I’m actually surprised no one has been driven away yet; however, due to the nature of the work and how the department is laid out in terms of workstations, it might only become an issue when there’s a team meeting and they butt heads with her, or something like that.

          I think she’s only been disciplined once and it was an interaction with another team member. I definitely feel as though the relationship with the former manager likely has something to do with the fact that she hasn’t really been disciplined.

          1. softcastle*

            Yes, in our case this individual was very close with the manager–they texted frequently and she kind of had “open door privileges” to just walk into the manager’s office with a problem whenever she felt like it. The manager not only advocated/protected her when she was being disciplined for a sexual harassment infraction, but gave her a merit increase during our reviews the next month and a staff award. The only reason more people didn’t leave is because they were desperate to keep their jobs.

            Let the old manager’s mistakes be his or her own. Time to take the action /you/feel is right. But also, I acknowledge that I’m personally coming at this from a place of deep bias and frustration so take my advice with a grain of salt.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Biased perspective or not – you ain’t wrong. It’s time to cut this person loose.

    3. OhBehave*

      After reading all the comments, I hope you will come back Friday to let us know she’s on the way out!

      No guilt – she did this to herself. Fault also lies with those managers before you who covered up her behavior. Someone can be driven, smart, etc. and not be a pain in the arse! Don’t discount the effect someone like this has on the office. You will probably feel a change in the air despite the separation you say is present in the office. Anyone can be replaced!

    4. Frustrated Today*

      Thank you to all of you for your comments! It’s helped me realize that I’m not being a jerk. I’ve never had an employee like this and it’s just so exhausting and frustrating. Really, the only reason it has gone on this long since my arrival is because I wanted to make absolutely sure I gave it my best shot, especially being the new manager. Had I hired her myself, she would have been gone months ago. But now I can say I did everything I could. I’ve tried encouraging her, advising her, getting her some new opportunities, etc. and she can’t see beyond the current issue that’s entirely of her own making; I’m the bad guy, of course.

      Oh, and I’ve noticed she’s posting passive aggressive stuff on Linked In of all places. You know, those quotes and stories people post when they’ve been wronged (or think they’ve been wronged) and want the world to know it but don’t want to come out and say it or address the person directly.

  32. Myrin*

    You guys. My friends, my people, my fellow commenters.
    I dropped my dissertation. I don’t know how to say that correctly and gracefully in English but what I mean is that I stopped the process and will at least in the foreseeable future, maybe ever, not get a doctorate.
    It’s almost been a month already but it’s still weird to talk about. There’s a whole story behind it which I will share sometime in the upcoming weeks but at the moment, just know that I’m not regretting it, even though it’s been three years and I’m kind of floating around somewhat aimlessly at the moment.
    But I’m just relieved and so, so glad that I don’t have to spend every waking hour doing anything at all thinking “oh, I could acctually be working on my dissertation right now”. My life is going to take a somewhat different path now but I’m ready and excited!
    (Although for the time being, nothing is actually changing. I really need more time to digest everything and at the moment, I’m just continuing with my to part-time jobs as is. I think I’ll only start looking for other stuff next year because I’m very content with where I am right now.)

    1. TheOtherLiz*

      Congrats on making such a big decision that was clearly the right one for you! We’re taught to only celebrate people taking the obvious paths, and sometimes when we’re whole-hog into something and tell everyone about it and then we change course, it can feel awkward. But over time it’ll either become something you don’t need to bring up, or a part of your story you can tell with a smile and perspective. I spent my last year of grad school working closely with a professor on a postdoc fellowship application to go to France, working intensively on my French, and found myself a summer sublet in Paris to finish the proposal and try to get to fluency. By the time grad school ended I realized that my goal wasn’t realistic – but I still went to Paris. I was ashamed for awhile, but now I just tell people that I lived in Paris for a summer just for fun, and it is a period of my life I don’t regret one bit! Nor do I regret my decision. And when I came back, I just pursued a different path and nobody knew me as a failure – and I finally realized I wasn’t. So maybe you can find your version of living in Paris to relish this life choice you’ve made!

    2. deesse877*

      They tell you that the university is the only authentic life of the mind. This is an absurd lie, as of course you know already, but it can be hard to get out of your head, so I thought I’d reiterate it.

      Honestly, I think a year is a minimum for most people for reframing one’s life after academia. Good luck.

    3. juliebulie*

      In high school I had a teacher who used to say: “A quitter never wins and a winner never quits.”

      What I have learned is that there are times when “winning” means sticking with something that will never make your life better, and will keep you from doing something else that could make your life much better. In that case, quitting is much better.

      On those occasions when I have to quit something, it usually feels GREAT.
      Good luck to you!

    4. CheeryO*

      My best friend did the same thing about a year ago, and she is so much happier for it. It seems like you have an excellent attitude, so I’m sure you’ll pivot and be just fine!

    5. A tester, not a developer*

      Congratulations! In some ways I think it’s just as tough to stop working on a dissertation as it is to start doing it. So much of your identity gets tied up in the work.
      Enjoy your time refreshing and regrouping!

    6. Goldfinch*

      Many, many people have succeeded with info they gained in an ABD degree. I have no doubt that you will still use what you learned in some fashion. Congrats on the load off your mind!

    7. fposte*

      Another congratulations! Not something to spend time doing if it’s not right for you; I knew people who kept going when they really wanted to stop, and it was definitely not a good life move. Enjoy letting yourself off the hook!

    8. Rainy*

      I left my doctoral program ABD. I’d passed all the comps, I’d taken all the classes, I had most of a dissertation…but I also had a committee chair who was hostile to my project and none of the other faculty took my problem seriously. I think at the time it seemed to them like the easy road was to force me out and pretend everything was fine. When they started losing students in droves a few years later, that was when they finally realized they needed to do something. I’ve since received an apology from another faculty member, but that’s all.

      It took me a while to relax, grapple with the identity crisis, etc, but I found my way into a career that I love and am great at, I’m moving into some national service roles in my professional organization, I’m extremely valued in my workplace, and I have the kind of work/life balance I never could have dreamed of before.

      I honestly think that, while I regret the money I spent a little, and the lack of those letters after my name a bit more, it all turned out better than it could have done, and I am so incredibly happy. All of which is to say–when it’s the right decision, you know it’s the right decision. :)

    9. Combinatorialist*

      As someone who finished my doctorate about a year ago, congratulations on making the right decision for you! I still wonder if I should have dropped out — I’m not sure it is worth what it cost me in terms of my relationship (which survived but with serious fractures that we are still healing), my mental health, my emotional stability, and my sense of self. It’s been about a year and I’m just recently starting to feel like a human being again, as opposed to a walking zombie. I haven’t revised the paper the editors of a journal kicked back a year ago — I haven’t even read the revisions (I’m out of academia now). I have realized that I don’t really know myself anymore and have been struggling trying to figure that out again

    10. TomTomTime*

      Seriously, good for you in knowing when you’ve had enough. I hope you’re surrounded by people who understand how hard it was to do that and who are encouraging you for knowing yourself. There is SO, so much guilt sometimes in leaving academia.

    11. OrigCassandra*

      Bravo. Well done.

      I did the same twenty years ago, and do not even slightly regret it. May your journey be similar.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Years ago, I had a young friend tell me, “I quit school and my mother’s mad at me.”

      I said, “Yeah, she’s probably afraid you are going to be eating meals out of dumpsters.” Then I went on, “Quitting something is not a problem. The problem is when we fail to start the next thing.” I firmly believe this, too. Before the end of our time on earth most of us will quit many things. I would much rather see someone quit something than see a person who never tries to do anything. The latter is a lot more concerning.
      So you have learned something about yourself and in a way you have defined another part of you and what will be important in your life. For that I congratulate you. It’s always a cool thing when we find parts of ourselves.

    13. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Congratulations from a three-time college drop-out! I hope the non-academic world treats you superbly well.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        Hardest thing to do is knowing when to cut your losses.

        I have many friends, who stepped back and went “Oh hell no!” on a school or career path midway through.

        Good luck on your next life’s chapter!

  33. Llama Wrangler*

    Question for the managers — How do you/your employers determine what counts as too much sick time for someone to take? I’m going to post a link in a comment with a previous AAM post that talks about one day every three weeks as “too much.”

    My direct report has been taking about one day a month for the last few months for unplanned sick days, and has a disclosed chronic health concern (but has not started a process of asking for accommodations); she has also been increasingly coming in late. We’re in a quiet period so she hasn’t had problems getting her work done and has been an above average performer.

    However, both my boss and our head of HR have commented on her number of sick days — more under the guise of wondering about her satisfaction at work than concerns about her productivity. Is this something you’d raise with her, and if so, how?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I just looked at that 2011 post when I went to approve the link, and wow it was more rigid than I’d advise being now. I updated it a bit! But in that context, where reliable attendance really was essential for the job, once every three weeks was too much for that particular job. I’d say yours is a very different situation — her work is good and it’s not causing problems.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Ooooh interesting that you would handle it differently now; thanks! My thought is that if my leadership raises it with me again, I will ask them explicitly if they have concerns that these are excessive absences, and probe about their expectations.

          Two things that might be underlying this is that we’re a little bit of a butts-in-seats company (but culture is slowly shifting, and some of this might be remnants of that). Also, she has a work-friend who is generally not well-liked in the company and it sounds like there’s some gossip that my direct report is being negatively influenced by the friend, even though I have seen no evidence of this…

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, if this speculation isn’t even about her or anything she’s doing, but is mainly based on who she associates with, I’d push back on these comments with leadership. You guys know she has a chronic illness, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that while she may not need to invoke FMLA and request formal accommodations yet, she’s still struggling and is managing this illness as best she can. She’s not letting it affect her work, and seriously, one absence a month and a couple late starts in the morning for a chronic illness is nothing.

            I know I’m hypersensitive to this issue because I, too, have various chronic illnesses and it’s a pain in the ass to be monitored for taking my earned sick time and treated like a five-year-old who can’t manage her own time/workload. Thank god for my current fully remote job because now if I’m struggling a bit during the day or get a late start due to being trapped in the bathroom for over an hour, nobody’s whispering about it and making it a big deal.

    1. we're basically gods*

      I would maybe let her know that you’ll help her if she needs help, but that her productivity is fine, and you aren’t concerned so long as she keeps performing above average.

    2. LCL*

      It’s not time to talk to her yet. If she is your direct report, part of your job is to advocate for her whenever your boss or HR bring up her number of sick days. And to ask your boss and HR if they have concerns about her attendance, and if they see it as a problem, and what they might or might not do. If your company is required to follow the FMLA, tell her about the process and help her with the paperwork. After you have done all this, you will have a better idea of what to do next, if anything.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks, this is helpful guidance for concrete next steps, and a good reminder to keep advocating for the quality of her work. I think my boss wasn’t concerned about work quality but was worried that this was reflective of her dissatisfaction with the job; I didn’t really know what to say except “she’s told me she’s happy and I’ve seen no evidence that she’s checked out.”

        1. valentine*

          worried that this was reflective of her dissatisfaction with the job
          I don’t get this, unless they think the work is making her sick or she’s faking/just can’t be bothered to go in some days. Twelve sick days a year is nothing, but talk to her about her lateness, if that’s something you can’t champion her on. Maybe she would like her hours moved back or she needs to flex them for a bit.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Yeah, it’s complicated… I think they think she’s taking mental health days, or exaggerating her symptoms to justify staying out. But also (repeating what I said in a previous comment) she has a work-friend who is generally not well-liked in the company and it sounds like there’s some gossip that my direct report might be negatively influenced by the friend, even though I have seen no evidence of this…

          2. CM*

            I have a long-term pain condition, and what I’ve learned is that the amount of sick time I take for it is usually a compound effect of how much grief the pain’s adding to my life and how much grief the job’s adding to my life. If I really love my job, I’m more likely to try to push through the pain because I WANT to go somewhere that’s adding something positive to my life and might actually make me feel better. If I really hate my job, I’m less likely to do that, because the thought of adding more stress/discomfort/aggravation on top of whatever pain I already have is too much.

            So, even when someone has an actual medical condition, it’s still possible that taking a lot of absences or coming in late is a sign that they don’t like being at work. The two things can stack together and, if it seems like someone is pretty cavalier about missing work, even for legitimate reasons, it could still be a sign that their relationship with the job isn’t happy.

      2. Brownie*

        Exactly. Be her advocate, anything else is likely to increase her (and any other employees who witness/hear about this) job dissatisfaction. I’ve been that employee and feeling like my manager disapproved of me using sick time for being sick lead to massive amounts of guilt every time I was sick. That pushed me to come in to work contagious and still sick and that spiraled into longer healing times, massively reduced productivity, and ultimately had me crying in the car even when I wasn’t sick because work felt so toxic from the guilt trips that I didn’t want to be there anymore. Making someone feel guilty over using sick days for being sick is a good way to lose that employee.

      3. Old Millenial*

        Yes mention the FMLA, ask your boss for meat and potatoes concerns I stead of vague…it’s a lots … Which are useless.

    3. LGC*

      This is a bit tricky! Generally speaking, I do think that 1 day every 3 weeks might be excessive in general. But like literally every work thing, this isn’t hard and fast.

      I wouldn’t bring it up as a question about work satisfaction, because that’s not the point. (Even if you hate your current job, you need to show up until you leave, in my opinion.) And it sounds like it’s not really a problem for you – so I would state that to your boss and HR. (If you feel like you can push back.)

      If it is a concern for HR, I believe they can start the process of formalizing things (like intermittent FMLA).

    4. fposte*

      If you’re in the U.S. and your employer is big enough to be covered by FMLA, it’s the workplace’s obligation to bring it up to the employee, not the employee’s obligation to ask for accommodation. You guys may already be behind on this. Check with HR to see what policy is, but even if it’s an option for your employee not to use intermittent FMLA for these absences, she should probably get eligibility information and a rights and responsibilities notice.

      Once a month is not, IMHO, that big a deal; once a month when people are already throwing some shade at the employee for various reasons, though, means I’d advise her to take FMLA if she asked, and I’d definitely advise you to make sure that she gets the information she’s legally entitled to (again, all “if you’re in the U.S.” stuff).

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        She will not be eligible for FMLA for another couple of months. But, just to clarify, the logic behind encouraging her to take FMLA means that her job is not at risk for taking it, vs taking paid sick leave could impact the company’s perceptions of her performance?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          My supervisor two companies ago was told by her manager to talk to me about requesting intermittent FMLA leave when I got really ill mentally and physically because his thought process was, yes, I could technically call out sick and use my paid time, but if someone above both of them started questioning why I was leaving work early/coming in late and/or not in the office due to what we would know were doctors appointments, then HR could step in and say, “She has a documented health concern that she’s addressing – she’s fine, leave her alone.”

        2. fposte*

          It’s not just about the perception of her performance–she can legally be fired merely for taking sick days in most states (assuming no breach of the ADA/FMLA), even if she doesn’t exceed her PTO (you didn’t mention PTO but I’m throwing that in there). It’s hugely to her benefit, IMHO, to get it on the record that these are legally protected absences that can’t be held against her.

    5. Clisby*

      Aren’t sick days inherently unplanned? Unless, of course, your company allows sick days to be used for medical appointments/treatment.

  34. Green*

    I’ve picked up the Carolyn Hax “Wow” when people do or say something ridiculous at work. So much complexity in just three letters.

    1. Hope*

      …I think I’ve been reading advice columns too much, because my first response to reading this was “but which three letters? Is there a link so I can read them?”

      1. Green*

        It forces them to explain themselves or re-frame it knowing that you’re surprised/appalled/whatever instead of getting caught up responding to your exact characterization. Used it today when someone who I disagree with promptly said that chatting with me is useless (I’m Legal for the company and this person does not view my role as having an authority to ask them to do, or not do, anything). I said, “Wow.” And he promptly started to back track.

        1. LilacLily*

          OOF. who knew a three letters word could be so savage! I absolutely love it :’D your coworker was really rude, and “wow” is darn right. I will keep it in mind for the future!

      2. KAG*

        When someone purporting to be my landlord (whom I have never met) asked, via text message, for a picture of the front door lock of my building, I responded “Wow! That’s an odd question!”

        Her response: “Thanks!”

        My friends’ response: GTFO, not now but right now!

    2. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I heart Carolyn Hax so much! Have definitely applied her wisdom and advice in both work and personal situations :)

  35. NespressoCosi*

    I’m sure this has been done to death previously, but…I really need a way to recalibrate. I left a toxic job last October, luckily to work full-time from my side job. Toxic Job was in a small family office, now I’m working exclusively from home. I really loved it right up to a couple of months ago (partly because I needed a processing/mourning/whatever period), when I went to a conference in another country and met my remote colleagues at the same time. They are all based in the other country. Since then I am having trouble settling back to the work-from-home routine. I feel I don’t fully belong and that I am missing “teaminess” and probably some opportunities by working from home. I fed some of this back and we have added more ways to share things, I am in communication with many more people, and have more fun projects in the pipeline. And we already have a regular phone call plus occasional calls. My manager now is also great – supportive, kind, tries to give opportunities, everything you could want – and the colleagues all lovely – I think this must be the first time I’ve ever worked in a normal place. I’m grateful…but… I still feel I am missing something fundamental. Is this just me needing to give my head a wobble, or are there other things I could do to mitigate this feeling?

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      Full time remote work isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, so it’s possible this isn’t the right gig for you. There’s no shame in that, and it might be worth considering.

      I think if I were you, I’d try to get clear on what specifically I was missing, and go from there. If it’s a thing that can be mitigated in the workplace, it sounds like you’ve got support to do that, but if it’s not, maybe it’s a need you can fill some other way.

      When I was fully remote, I made it a point to also cultivate the social/personal side of my work relationships. I’d come on to meeting calls a few minutes early and share personal chit chat with whoever else was already on. If I saw a funny meme or an article I had reason to think a particular person would get a kick out of, I’d send it to them on IM. That sort of thing.

      I also made it a point to have more in-person contact in other areas of my life. I was a school volunteer, and maybe once or twice a week, I’d take my lunch break to go in to the school and make copies or work on volunteer stuff in the workroom where there were other volunteers and teachers on break.

    2. 867-5309*

      Seconded Janet’s comment about assessing if remote, full-time work is right for you.

      Here are things I do:
      – At my own expense, go to a co-working space once a week.
      – Schedule networking lunches once or twice a month to catch up or meet professional colleagues in my field, but not necessarily my company.
      – Attend field-related professional development lunches or after work events monthly.
      – On days where you can have a few hours that need computer work, go to a coffee shop.
      – Take a midday break and go for a 30-60 minute walk or workout.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Yeah, it sounds like full-time working from home just doesn’t suit your personality. You may need to take the suggestion above about working out of a coworking space, that way, you get to interact with others throughout the day and won’t feel so lonely without conversation.

  36. Valancy Snaith*

    Where is the line on coaching your peers, rather than your subordinates?

    In my place of work, my direct manager has encouraged me and my peers (4 others) to coach one another instead of only the employees below us, in an effort to reduce her own workload. But I find it very awkward to correct my peers, since 3/5 of us have exactly the same seniority and experience level. If it’s small things, like “hey, we’re not supposed to be doing X–it’s Y instead now” it’s one thing, but when it comes to larger things like “the policy is actually X and we have to do it this way, you need to do it this way instead” it makes for a strange dynamic. Thoughts?

    1. juliebulie*

      You have the same seniority and experience level, but you apparently don’t have the same knowledge. It’s not weird to share information like that.

      You’re not saying “hey dummy, you’re doing it wrong, I am smarter than you and I command you to do Policy X.” You’re just saying “we’ve been told to follow Policy X now. I’ll send you a copy, or do you want me to go over it with you here?”

      It’s more like collaboration, not subordination.

      1. valentine*

        It’s more like collaboration, not subordination.
        Yeah, you’re not competing with each other and you want to nip things in the bud so no one has to add covers to 87 TPS reports.

    2. Robin Ellacott*

      That’s a little awkward for sure! Luckily since I assume you all got this message everyone will know where it’s coming from, especially if you say “My understanding was that we need to ___ instead. Or do you know something I don’t? Forgive the awkwardness, but I know Jane wanted us to share knowledge and experience.”

      Or can you all have a mini meeting and just discuss that you will all be doing this now and talk about how it will work best?

      On a side note: I love your username. That is one of my “comfort food” books.

    3. Oh No She Di'int*

      I feel like this is a disaster in the making.

      The benefit to having a clear chain of command is that even if someone doesn’t like something, even if they don’t agree, it’s clear to everyone where the authority lies. And that is independent of personalities. So a quiet but knowledgeable manager can effectively manage a rowdy but inexperienced underling.

      The problem with coworkers is that without a chain of command, a lot is going to come down to personalities. Not everyone is going to have the same level of outgoingness, shyness, abrasiveness, calmness, directness, indirectness, etc. So you’re going to get abrasive, direct people telling shy, insecure people what to do all the time, not because they have authority, but because that’s their personality.

      This is not to cast aspersions on you or any of your coworkers. I am sure you are all lovely people. But in situations like this, very minor personality differences can have a pronounced effect.

      As a manager I am constantly monitoring this sort of thing. It’s fine for people to collaborate, share knowledge, etc. But the moment anyone starts to drift into managing and instructing someone else, I try to divert that. And no, I am not implying that one employee is forbidden from showing another employee how to structure a find-and-replace query in Word using wildcards, or some such thing. If you can help somebody out with that, great! I’m talking more along the lines of: You should execute this task to this quality standard because that’s my personal idea of a good job.

      And PS, I find the motivation (“to reduce her own workload”) to be slightly eyebrow-raising. I’m all for delegating tasks to subordinates to lighten one’s load. But I think that managing the team is the one task a team manager cannot delegate.

    4. Federal Middle Manager*

      Even if you don’t have hierarchical authority, I think there still needs to be an appeal to authority when coaching peers. A quick email that says “hey, I noticed you did the last report X way, we need to do them Y way, *here’s the link to the procedure/handbook/policy/company-wide e-mail*” is going to be much more effective than “hey, I noticed you do this X way and my way is better, you should do it like me.”

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      You may be peers, but each person probably has more specific domain knowledge in their area or specialty. If Joe is an expert in assessing teapot handles, Julie is a teapot lid expert, and you are the one who hands the spout QA, each of you can cross train the others in your area. You wouldn’t expect to know all the ins and outs of handle assessment, and Joe wouldn’t be an expert on spouts, but you can each learn from the other. That way, when one of you is unavailable, the others can cover for you and the whole teapot is QA’ed.

      Coaching or cross-training is really useful in smallish teams where one or two people are on-call at a time and may encounter problems outside of their specific domain. Of course, up to date detailed documentation helps too, especially with the “Bus” scenario. (Bus scenario: Coworker is hit by a bus and in the hospital, unconscious. Your team has to do their job or train someone new to do it.)

  37. GriefBacon*

    Those who have left non-profit jobs and moved to for-profit work…how did you know it was time/the right move to make that switch?

    I’ve been at my non-profit job that I love and excel at for 3 years — the org is actually highly functional and highly impactful, but we’ve had some leadership changes I really don’t love and my opportunities for growth here aren’t great. And I’m making, at best, 60% what my for-profit counterparts make. I figured I’d stick around nonprofits long enough for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, but since that doesn’t seem particularly promising anymore, I’m having a hard time justifying my love for mission-driven work to my bank account.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I left a non-profit when leadership changed and things became…weird. I was vastly under paid as well. I ended up going to another non-profit that had competitive wages (healthcare) and I never looked back. I was very connected to the mission when I started the old job, but the Kool-aid wore off when leadership started doing fishy things. I found something else to be dedicated to, and it helps to be paid well.

    2. Former Non Profit*

      I had a for-profit opportunity come up unexpectedly, and I knew it was time (probably past time!) because I was just so tired. I loved the work, but I couldn’t deal with the irritations of leadership or not being rewarded for growing. Money is so nice, and having access to things like promotions and bonuses? Super great!

    3. Mid*

      Not super helpful-I’m just starting my career and struggling to decide between mission and money. But, one thing that’s been pointed out to me by many people is that for-profit jobs can have better hours, and more pay, so you can afford to volunteer/support things you care about. Switching to for-profit work doesn’t make you a sellout. And honestly, the majority of people I know with a career in the non-profit area I’m most interested in have a partner who makes a lot of money, or have family money, or have another job because the low pay and long hours aren’t truly feasible any other way.

      My guess for “when is it time to make the switch?” is “when you start asking that question.” Because at least part of you wants out right now. And getting paid market rate for your skills is not a bad thing, or something to be ashamed of. It’s not a betrayal to The Cause.

    4. Public Health Nerd*

      When my org’s structure meant that I didn’t have a path upward without clinical degrees, and I was getting close to the top of the pay band. And when local cost of living was outstripping their pay scales. And when the kind of work I wanted to do was appealing to the org but impossible to do in the structure they have. I still feel fine about having friends and family donate to them, but I can’t put my life on hold for the mission forever. I don’t regret leaving one little bit – I can support their mission in ways outside of work.

    5. 867-5309*

      For what it’s worth, a financial advisor recently suggested my friends hold on making all decisions related to student loan forgiveness until after the 2020 election. So, it might be worth waiting.

      Depending on your field, could you pick up some freelance work? That would help pad your bank account until you’re certain about making a move.

  38. Watermelon M*

    Dang it. So I’ve been searching for jobs to escape my toxic workplace for the past 8 months with no luck. (A friend convinced me to get some citrine crystals and start manifesting. Don’t know how well that works but it does feel nice to be self affirming!)

    Anywho, a job I applied to 8 months ago, that I really wanted over my current job but I was second runner up, just reached out to me. (Come on, citrine!) They are rehiring for the position I applied and interviewed for and would like me to reapply. I was stoked!

    However, I’m really curious why they’re rehiring so soon. I mean, I know I’m trying to leave my job because it’s awful as far as work culture. What if it’s the same there? How would I ask this politely? “Why did the last person leave?”

    Also. The job is now listed at nearly half the salary it was when I applied last year. What’s up with that? When I compare it to other similar positions and duties, it is well below market rate. So I’m confused why that changed.

    I’m bummed because it looks like it wouldn’t work out, it’s a $21k salary cut from what I make. I’m trying to convince myself that less money but a happier work environment would be wonderful, but I already do not make all that much, so we would be really feeling that big of a cut. At least it’s good practice, right? Sigh.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Go for the practice. You’re not interested at this salary, though. But if they had been willing to pay twice this amount, they could go up some—meet you in the middle. Is the salary now half because the duties have been halved? This is good practice for you go interview THEM.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Job duties are the same! I wonder if something went weird with their last employee and they adjusted the pay? It’s for a school district, so I doubt they would increase the salary all that much. I like the people who would be interviewing me on a personal level (I know them through a professional association), but I think it would be good practice to interview them about all this!

    2. Colette*

      That’s a pretty big difference in salary. I’d ask them before interviewing, because if you won’t take it at that salary, you won’t build good relationships by taking an interview slot for a job you won’t take.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This. I’d skip it – a $21k pay cut is too severe to overcome unless you have a wealthy partner or parents who can offset your salary.

    3. Girr*

      Maybe the new salary listed was a typo? I’d apply and interview just in case. That way you have a chance to ask about the change.

    4. Goldfinch*

      Since this is a school district job, is it possible they re-wrote it to a half-time position? I can’t see how else they could justify that pay change.

      1. Watermelon M*

        It still says full time! I’ll apply and if I interview, will ask them these things. Because I’m confused. Maybe there was a typo.

    5. Long Time Lurker*

      Is it possible that salary is listed for the remainder of the year since this is a school district?

      1. Clisby*

        That was my first thought. However, if this is a teaching position, that wouldn’t make sense, because at least here, teachers’ contracts run roughly from mid-August through the first week of June. If it were some sort of administrative post, they might have a year-round contract. (I know work contracts aren’t all that common in the US, but at least in SC, they’re very common for public education jobs.)

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Since they reached out to you, I see nothing wrong in reaching out back to them mentioning that you noticed that the salary changed, and asking for any context they have about that even before the interview stage. (Was the position re-classified? Is it now half time? Etc.)

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Goodness, I wouldn’t take it for $20k less! Don’t do it. Less money is just… less money… same old work problems.

      However, you might want to interview for the practice or for your curiosity. Actually now I’m curious why they cut the salary.

  39. Allthecats*

    I was recently promoted and they’re finally filling my old positoon. My manager asked me for my opinion on resumes as I’d be supervising whoever we hired. I’ve never evaluated a resume from this side. What shod I look for?

    1. Middle Manager*

      Probably depends on the job, but since writing is a big part of the work we do in my office, that’s the first thing I look at. Does it show signs of attention to detail, concise writing, editing? If not, that’s kind of a deal breaker for our role. After the basic writing scan, I compare their past experience to a list of skills I know the role takes. It’s rare for us that folks have done exactly our work before since it’s very niche, but have they in any context- written lengthy formal documents, managed a budget, led team projects, etc.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      Do you have clear in your head what skills you want someone to come in to versus what’s trainable? That’s an important first step that people don’t always take. (e.g. my direct report needs to have a lot of knowledge on teapot manufacturing to be a successful salesperson, and I knew I wanted someone who had experience working with clients selling things but I knew could train them on specific teapot manufacturing requirements to sell our teapots).

      More generally, I look for:
      -Amount of time in positions (especially in their current position and previous position)
      -What companies they’ve worked for, if they’re coming from within my field
      -Do their titles/responsibilities show progressive growth and that they’re at a level appropriate to the position

      There’s not a clear make or break on any of these, but I’d be less likely to screen someone if they e.g. have only been in their currently position for a short amount of time and also left their previous one quickly.

    3. juliebulie*

      I think you will know what to look for when you see it, if that makes any sense. It depends on your line of work, but sometimes it’s helpful to read between the lines. Like if the person has worked in lots of different industries. Does that mean they’re versatile and eager to learn, or does it mean they’re easily bored? If they’ve only ever worked in the same industry, does that mean they’re rigid, or does it mean they’re really hot to try something else?

      Also look for what makes one resume stand out from the others – either in a good way or a bad way. If the job requires great attention to detail and the resume is full of typos, then obviously, NO. If it requires great organizational skills but the resume itself is a disorganized mess, then NO again.

      Make sure to check out the cover letter, too. We had an applicant who mentioned (explicitly in his letter, and implicitly through his job experience) that he was a “passionate crusader for social justice,” which is awesome and made me want to give him a cape, but also made us doubt that this was the role for him. (More to the point, his actual qualifications made us doubt that this was the role for him.)

    4. On Hold*

      I agree about looking at previous job durations – if you’ve got them printed out, just note the duration of each job next to the dates on the resume. I pretty much followed Allison’s advice on this – one short stay? No problem. Every stay less than 18-24 months? Pass.

      It’s good to have an idea of what’s important – for example, at my last job, we were looking for travel/travel industry experience, call center experience, and customer service/sales experience. None? pass. One out of three? Maybe, depends on cover letter and other factors. Better be pretty impressive in other areas. Two or three out of three? Leaning towards yes.

      Make yes-no-maybe piles – and remember, this is just for the initial phone screen. We tended to be generous about offering phone screens, and then pretty harsh in culling down from there. A 15 minute conversation doesn’t take much from the candidate or from you, and you learn so much more in the phone screen than you do from the resume. If you’ve got enough ‘yes’ resumes, you don’t have to go into the ‘maybe’s – that’s just for if you’re short on ‘yes’s.

      When we passed around resumes, we left sticky notes for each other – different people tended to look at different things, and that way our observations didn’t get lost. In general, I might move someone from ‘yes’ to ‘maybe’ or vice versa, or I would move someone from either pile to ‘no’, but I would typically not move someone out of the ‘no’ pile if another supervisor had put them there (or even necessarily bother to review the ‘no’ pile – I trusted their judgement).

      I was hiring entry level, so anybody who had been management or executive level – I really wanted to know what their motivation was for coming in to my org at entry level. Wasn’t an automatic no, but I asked in the phone screen or interview.

  40. MOAS*

    So the venting part —

    There are 2 other managers in my new department. Georgina works in a diff location but visits every 2 weeks. G works closely with one of the VPs.

    Since it’s a new department, we’re developing a lot of processes and have twice a week meetings to make sure everything is running smoothly. It might be overkill but my company puts a lot of value on constant face time and communication with each other (even more so with remote workers). Sometimes I’m tasked to do something for the other two teams including my own, and generally we’re encouraged to help each other out and be team players. (the directive comes from my boss so I don’t typically refuse those).

    Sometimes Georgina will do things out of left field and we’re like HUH? Usually my boss will quickly explain it and everything is fine, moving on.

    Yet — I misunderstand a part of the process or don’t take a certain detail in to consideration and Georgina goes IN. I mean…condescending lectures, messaging over and over. I’m finding her to be abrasive and someone I can’t really trust b/c she calls me out in front of my boss & director and the VP she works with. Even my director, who is typically hard on me, says G goes overboard sometimes.

    It’s not that I’m incompetent.

    If I really make a mistake, I own up to it, apologize and try not to make it again. but with G, she keeps going on and on about it.

    I try to take the high road and respond diplomatically but lord I’m losing patience.

    OK vent over.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Ask your director if he has any good responses to her overboard criticisms for you to use, or maybe he could tell her that he’d prefer that she use a lighter touch, that she bring him the criticisms instead of to his staff since he’s your director, etc. The guy knows she’s rough—he should have the decency to step in and shut her down.

      1. MOAS*

        My boss (director is a different person) has given me good responses, but most of them are in the lines of “take the high road” which I don’t disagree with. and to be fair, in one incident I was wrong, but I didn’t like how condescending she was about it. It doesn’t happen too often but if it does I’m sure he’ll shut her down.

  41. Free Meerkats*

    I got to use my first aid training last week. One of the guys here stepped out of the back of one of our trucks onto the work platform we use as a step. Problems were, it was on gravel and he stepped onto the edge instead of the middle. It rolled out from under him, he went down, and hit his arm and head on the door. I had to dress and bandage his arm for the trip to the clinic, 5 sutures. Nothing except ibuprofen for the small cut and hit on the head. Then the paperwork started…

    He’s fine, hoping to get the sutures out today before he heads out on vacation.

  42. Sled dog mama*

    Ya’ll I got an 18% raise last week!
    I got a new certification in May and asked if my compensation could be revisited in light of that. I was prepared to argue that I’m underpaid compared to coworkers and industry norms.
    At first they gave me a run around about needing to reclassify my position.
    Finally my boss came back last week (after much prodding over 10 weeks from me) and told me they had approved 18%!

  43. k8*

    had a bit of a weird interview experience yesterday. it was a software engineering interview, split into three parts. the first two parts, which were focused on more practical api design/coding exercises, i felt went well. the third part was an algorithm and i just totally blanked and couldn’t get it. the interviewer’s whole vibe for this portion was really weird– he kept cutting off my ideas, trying to get me to start coding even though i had nowhere near to a codeable solution, then told me I shouldnt have started coding until I had a plan . . . like, I wouldn’t have if you hadn’t told me to! but whatever, that was annoying but not super strange, per se. the weird part was afterward, as we waited for the recruiter who would walk me out and were chatting about interviewing in general.

    him: the thing is, these companies don’t care about you
    me (polite smile): true, yeah
    him: no one cares about you
    me (confused laughter): haha….uh…yeah….
    him: you’re the only one who cares about you. these companies don’t care. i’ve been trying to find a company that cares about me, and i haven’t been able to. no one cares.
    me (smile has morphed into a bewildered grimace): ??????

    i honestly wanted to ask him if he was okay/if there was something he wanted to talk about because he seemed really, uh, depressed? thankfully the recruiter arrived after only a minute, but it was kind of a weird capstone to an otherwise pretty good interview experience . . .

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Yeah, I’m about 100% sure none of that was about you. It might be worth taking it as a warning flag (not a red one, maybe amber or something) about the environment in the office and be worth a question or two to an interview who isn’t him.

    2. lemon*

      I also see this as a red flag. Sounds like he was trying to tell you what a negative environment that place is.

    3. Oh No She Di'int*

      I’ll vote for amber flag.

      The fact is you can go to *any* company over a certain size and find *someone* who’s unhappy there. It doesn’t mean that the place itself is toxic. Beside which we all know people who are just unhappy everywhere they go. No company will ever be “caring” enough for them.

      I would keep my eyes and ears open for corroborating evidence, but I wouldn’t let this one interaction bias me against the place totally.

    4. Anon Librarian*

      Dude (meant gender-neutrally), tech. And creative fields. And anything else that’s fast paced and competitive. You see some stuff. You meet some people.

      I don’t know if this says more about the interviewer or the company. Who knows if whatever caused his attitude would affect you or not. But it’s something to consider. Or you could just stay for a few months and then move up to a better job at another company. Because that’s how those fast paced competitive fields often work. It is business and careers, not caring. This guy is weird. Take the whole thing in context!

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Well, possible bright side: since he’s so apathetic about his job and seems to hate life (and possibly this company), maybe he’ll ignore the fact that you bombed the third part of the interview because “nothing matters” and recommend you for the position anyway?

    6. Curmudgeon in California*

      Wow. He sounds burned out and depressed, and tending to take it out on others.

      It may be a fluke – I’ve known places where one person just hit burnout from a sequence of jobs and flamed out hard.

      But it could be a red flag, especially if others show similar signs. I’d want to rattle my network for inside info about the culture and workload at that company.

  44. we're basically gods*

    TL;DR: New job, looking for advice on making friendly acquaintances of coworkers who are all older than you, and experiences with little tiny startups in general.
    I got a new job! Yay!
    Buuut…. it’s in a super startup-y environment. We have funding for the 9 months of contract that the job goes for, so I’m not worried about that, and with my lack of experience, I’m taking what I can get, so I’m not complaining, but still. The team is: me, the UI person; two guys doing back-end web development; the guy who owns the company, doing even further back-end stuff; and the guy who’s funding us.
    I’m the youngest by 10 years and the only woman on the team. Everyone was very nice when we met up for drinks last night– I have the nerdy knowledge chops to hold my own, and they seem like good guys– but everyone else already knows each other. The guy who owns the company hired the other two developers because he already knew them; I was the only interviewed person.
    Now, I probably could go another nine months as the weird quiet person, like I’ve been at current!job, but I’d rather not do that. I would really prefer to be at that nice friendly acquaintance level with the other guys, partially to show I’m a team player, but largely because I tend to come home from current!job and desperately need to socialize because I’m so intensely lonely. (And I’m a card-carrying introvert, too, so you know it’s bad.) Part of it is my own fault and part of it is just not having much in common with my current coworkers; they’re all…very normal.
    We have nerdy stuff in common, and there’s been discussions of going to the movies as a team on Fridays and other such team activities, so the odds are already better than at current!job, but I’m still a little nervous about the social aspect of the new job. Suggestions? Advice? I don’t want to wind up letting my own nerves shoot me in the foot!
    (And just in case it comes up– no, it’s not social anxiety, my fears are a combination of ADHD meaning I say dumb stuff a lot, and years of being bullied leading me to second-guess myself. Anxiety techniques do not work for me because the bad outcome I’m worried about has already happened to me, multiple times.)

    1. Auntie Social*

      Can you offer to order in pizzas for lunch some Friday? As a thank you for being so nice and welcoming? If you tell people thanks for being friendly, they get even friendlier. I know food can look like a bribe to some people, but it’s a start.

      1. WellRed*

        For some reason, I am not a fan of this. I don’t think people need to be rewarded for being welcoming. Also, maybe I cringe a bit at the only woman being all grateful and offering food (though at least its not home bake goods).

        1. Joielle*

          Agreed. You want to be treated as an equal who deserves to be there – so don’t act like they’re doing you a big favor by being nice. That’s, like, the minimum standard of human behavior.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup. They hired you because they thought you had impressive skills they could use, not out of the goodness of their own bleeding hearts – keep that front of mind.

    2. LCL*

      Are any of your coworkers interested in any sports team? Sports are a safe non political topic that allows people to have passionate arguments, polite conversations, and recent information is readily available. There is so much information available you will never be at a loss for conversation. (Yes, you can dive into the political aspects of sports teams if that’s what you want.)

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Ugh. Sports are very normal male coded, neurotypical coded, and not likely to be a fit.

        Nerdy fandom stuff is likely to be a good bonding method.

        Also, if they are nerds too, they may also not be neurotypical, and might be fine with ADHD mannerisms. I know a lot of my peers are – we are mostly introverts, nerds, have ADHD or spectrum issues, and can socialise fine with each other.

    3. Robin Ellacott*

      Sorry for the past bad experiences!

      If you can find a TV show (especially if it’s live, not streaming) that several people watch that is small talk GOLD because during the season there will be new things to discuss every week. Ditto sports as LCL said.

      And in my experience everyone likes someone who asks their opinion occasionally, and listens attentively. I know I chatter when nervous and have learned to rein that in but YMMV.

      It sounds like a friendly office and I think you’ll have a great experience! Congratulations!

    4. Joielle*

      I think the golden rule applies here – treat them as you want to be treated. No need to be super outgoing or anything, but try to engage with your coworkers a little more than you might naturally be inclined to. Ask people how their weekend was, try to remember little things about them (a show they like, their spouse’s name, whether they have pets or kids), be helpful and approachable at work. You seem like a really friendly person! And it sounds like this environment is right up your alley, with coworkers you have things in common with. So be confident that they will like you, because it sounds like they will (and do already).

    5. Lilysparrow*

      As a fellow ADHDer, just keep telling yourself to take it slow & not put all your eggs in one basket.

      Usually the blurting /awkward / unintentional rudeness stuff happens more when we’re flustered or feel that internal pressure to have All The Fun Right Now!!!!!

      There’s plenty of time. You gotta let the connection grow naturally, you can’t rush it.

      And make sure you’re topping up your social tank with connections outside of work. We have a tendency to magical thinking.

      The new job sounds good – better than current job. It still won’t be perfect, right? Just let it be a good thing, not The Bestest Thing Of All, you know?

      Good is good enough. Nice is nice enough. It’s going to be fine.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Embrace the nerd. Put a relevant gadget or toy in your cubicle doorway. Wear a nerdy pin. Join in conversations. Make a point to walk the long way on the way back from the rest room so you can walk past others to do a quick “hi” to anyone who’s not head-down in their work.
      It’s all about adding micro-interactions to the social capital bank. You don’t have to go all out on Friday night drinks to get things rolling. But maybe when you have a moment, you ask someone if they can recommend an interesting place to eat or do a new activity — you can say “hey, now that I’m out of that terrible hell-hole, I’m trying to change things up a bit. Where do you take your friends/family when they come to visit around here?” Then maybe you check it out, and now you have something to report back later in the week. And maybe it’ll turn out that you do it together, after awhile. Or you just have something more interesting to talk about at work. Either way, it’s a good thing.

  45. workerbee*

    General advice for telling bosses / colleagues about pregnancy? Things you wish you did but didn’t? How to stay calm and stress-free when you work with a bunch of nitwits?

    First time expecting – thanks in advance :)

    1. DC Weekend*

      Congratulations!! I just had my first in March. I waited a long time before saying anything at work, so by the time i did I had a plan in place. I knew which day would be my last, how long I was going to take for maternity leave, and which date I would return. I also discussed my plans for each project I was working on and who would take it over while I was out. My goal was to answer any questions my manager may have had before he could even ask them.

    2. Anona*

      I announced my pregnancy at work at about 17 weeks. First, I shared it with my boss, then with our team during a staff meeting, and then sent an email out to my department (of about 20 people). I kept everything fairly brief, basically explaining about when I’d be out/my planned leave (so, more or less keeping it focused on work).
      The most cringeworthy thing that happened to me in pregnancy at work was a few months later, when a coworker asked me several times if I was dilated any, and if so, how much. I was so shocked, and just said “no,” because, WTF?! I thought about it a lot and decided to tell her (if she asked again) that I don’t feel comfortable sharing that type of information about my body with colleagues (or that I didn’t feel comfortable sharing information about my vagina with colleagues). She never asked.

      1. Anona*

        Oh & also, I found it helpful to keep a document with a running list of things I’d need taken over when I was out on leave. When I had free time, I’d type up instructions related to whatever it was. It was really helpful for when I met with my boss to discuss my responsibilities- I could tell him clearly the things that needed to be covered. Then, I just emailed people the instructions I had saved. My manager said it was a really helpful document, which I attribute to having worked on it for most of my pregnancy.

      2. A tester, not a developer*

        I had a coworker who was obsessed with my fundus (measurement from belly button to pubic bone). I stuck with “everything’s good”, but WTH! And at least she was asking about stuff on the *outside* of my body…

    3. Nancy*

      Congratulations! You’ll have lots of doctor’s appointments, so plan for those now. When I was pregnant with my first and didn’t have to rush home after work I would schedule 4:30 appointments and eat lunch at my desk – my work was cool with leaving for the appointment and not using up PTO (you’ll want to bank whatever you have). Speak with your HR about whatever FMLA and short-term disability benefits you may have so you can get that paperwork in order. Write down everything around month 8 of your pregnancy…when you return to work you will thank yourself that your password, voicemail access code, etc. are not hiding in the recesses of your tired brain. Treat yourself to whatever makes your work space more comfortable, like a new chair or cushion. My office is very family-friendly so I shared the news of my pregnancies around the end of the first trimester with a simple announcement in a casual group chat session, after I had told my family and friends, but that’s an individual call. This served the very practical purpose of keeping projects on my plate that I could realistically finish within 6 months (or that could withstand my absence for a few months when the baby was born) and other projects got assigned to other people so I didn’t have last-minute stress of delegating projects that I was deeply invested in close to delivery.

  46. Parental Leave Angst Help*

    I am really hoping to crowd-source a script to clarify and discuss the parental leave policy with my HR rep, or if bringing it up now is even worth the time. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this and give input.

    We received our new employee handbook today and I was hoping it would be more clear on the topic of parental leave, but to my dismay it is not. We are granted the standard FMLA for 12 weeks and the handbook contains all the usual FMLA language about who qualifies and how it can be used. It is worth noting that the policy is for all FMLA leave, and there is no specific section of parental leave. So, the company allows for 12 weeks (in theory, since my spouse is employed elsewhere and I have no current family members with a current health condition that require my care).

    The language also read “the leave may be paid or unpaid, or a combination of paid and unpaid leave, depending on the circumstances of the leave and as specified under this policy”. Under the section of paid and unpaid use of leave, it states that an employee must exhaust PTO (paid) before being eligible for unpaid leave for cases of “own serious health condition” as well as “when taking leave for the adoption or foster care of a child”. It then says that for *disability leave* for the birth of a child will “be designated FMLA and run concurrently with FMLA. The employee *may* then be required to substitute accrued paid leave (PTO) as appropriate before being eligible for unpaid leave for what remains of the 12-week entitlement.” My company does not automatically provide disability insurance, but it is something we can add on (like dental or vision), and I intend to enroll at the start of 2020. I am not sure how much that insurance would cover.

    From where I stand, the company is purposefully leaving parental leave blurry to be able to work out each case individually, which is why I am not sure if it’s even worth bringing up now. I am not pregnant at the moment, but my husband and I intend to start trying sometime early next year, so knowing about my leave will factor into our calculations for savings etc.

    What I want to know is if I am expected to negotiate the paid or unpaid nature of my leave once I submit my request for FMLA and within the discussion of planning my return to work plans (which I know is a standard conversation) or if that is something we can clarify now (or if it’s worth clarifying now). Either way, I want to know the best way to advocate for a more clear parental leave policy AND for at least partially paid leave in addition to whatever PTO I may exhaust.

    For reference: My company is medium sized, maybe 400-500 employees split across 5 facilities, with my site currently having ~ 70 employees. We are predominantly male, and all of the women who work at my site had children before working here, or have never had children. Male parents in my facility have taken anywhere between 2 -4 weeks off upon the birth of their children. I have no examples of leave from other facilities nor do I have contact with any women professionals there whom I would feel comfortable asking.

    1. Natalie*

      I would obviously check with your HR department, but I don’t think this is as blurry as you think. This sounds like a pretty typical American leave policy written in the annoying semi-legalese of employee handbooks:
      – Since you have to use any available PTO during FMLA, that leave could end up being a combination of paid and unpaid.
      – If you have enrolled in short term disability and get your leave certified as short term disability , the employer has to follow the insurance company’s rules which presumably preclude using PTO concurrently. (Every short term disability policy I’ve ever seen or heard of pays 60% up to some certain amount. Not sure why that is but seems to be standard.)

      I would not anticipate being able to negotiate some kind of extra paid leave unless you’re aware of people having done that before.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        Yes, this seems pretty standard. The first 6-8 weeks of your 12-week FML will be when you’re on disability (usually 6 weeks vaginal delivery, 8 weeks csection) at which you’ll be paid probably up to 60% through the disability insurance. The remaining 4-6 weeks of your 12-week leave is unpaid by the company. Usually you can tap into your PTO bank as needed during any of that 12 week leave, but some companies make people use the PTO during leave until it’s gone.

        Your specific state might have some other leave funds available for you – I’m in CA for example and we have paid family leave, where the second half of that 12 weeks is paid at 60% through the state. I’ve never worked at a company that gives their own paid leave though I hear (and hope) that more companies start offering this. Especially larger ones like yours.

        1. Parental Leave Angst Help*

          I was previously at a Fortune 5o company that explicitly provided 8 weeks of paid parental leave, in addition to whatever disability you could use to supplement your income during FMLA. My husband and best girl friend (all of us are engineers) work at companies that have a separate, explicit parental leave policies (ie: not under general FMLA) and provide full pay for some number of weeks (between 4 and 8), and their companies are fortune 500 and a 5-yr old firm. All that to say is I guess that I was used to something more explicit, without the “pay or may not be paid” or “may be required to use PTO” and in my immediate circle of those I consider in similar fields it is a lot more clear, and felt daunted by the legalise of the policy we have.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yep, that’s exactly how it works for us. You get FMLA, you have to use any PTO you have at first, and if you opted into short term disability, the idea is that the PTO will also cover your initial waiting period (ours is either 14 or 28 days, depending on what you chose when you first opted in) before the STD kicks in.

      3. HerNameWasLola*

        Just came down here to say this does sound pretty typical. I let our employees know that FMLA is unpaid – period. FMLA provides job protection up to 12 weeks. FMLA can be taken because of a medical need for yourself or qualifying family member.
        However, the company may have something in place to address your pay and that will run concurrently with FMLA. This may mean that you will have to exhaust your PTO or if in the case of a short term disability, use PTO until you establish the time needed to qualify for short term disability. It does usually pay about 60% of pay and our company’s case we automatically supplement that with any PTO you have (unless you tell us not to).
        Most companies use verbiage like above because it covers leaves (especially the FMLA’s) with broad strokes and it’s not to purposefully leave anything out. For example, in our company parental leave for the mother having the child would most likely qualify for short term disability but the father would not get this benefit. The father would have to use PTO. If you adopt, it would also be PTO. If you qualify for FMLA your job would be protected regardless of how you are getting paid or not getting paid. I can’t imagine putting all those scenarios in a policy and have it be any more readable than the one you have.
        Others have suggested talking to HR and I agree since it sounds like they may not have much experience in managing parental leaves. It will force them to review the process.

    2. TheOtherLiz*

      I read that as: they treat both kinds of parental leave – whether you’ve given birth or adopted/started to foster – as FMLA, and you can take off up to 12 weeks – but you’re expected to use your PTO for some of that. My work policy is similar: we get up to 12 weeks, maybe paid, unpaid or a combo – but we’re expected to use all our PTO for that except for 5 days that we must put in the “sick leave bank” – and then after that it would be unpaid. So basically it means I can’t bring home baby, take 6 weeks of saved up vacation time, and then declare after that that I will take 12 weeks unpaid leave. I can only be gone for up to 12 weeks total – and I’ll be using all of my PTO save 5 days, and then when that runs out the rest of the time is unpaid.

      1. Parental Leave Angst Help*

        Where I get caught up is the “MAY” part here: The employee *may* then be required to substitute accrued paid leave (PTO) as appropriate before being eligible for unpaid leave for what remains of the 12-week entitlement

        Does the “may” really mean “if you have PTO available you will be required to use it, but if you previously exhausted PTO then you will not be required” ? Why not just state that?

        1. Lurker*

          At my non-profit that was the case. I took 4 months off, 8 weeks of disability, then I had to spend down all of my PTO, and the remainder of the time was unpaid. It REALLY sucked because then when you return to work with a teeny infant you have no time off for the inevitable sicknesses/sleep deprivation/life. :(

        2. fposte*

          I’d just ask if that’s what it means. That’s a pretty standard requirement, so I wouldn’t be surprised, but you’re right that it’s oddly ambiguous (and an employer shouldn’t leave something with such discriminatory potential as a discretionary item).

    3. CAA*

      You could have a conversation with your HR benefits person now to clarify how this works. It’s not negotiable, but she should be able to help you understand what happens if you do or don’t have disability insurance and when your PTO comes into play. Also, she should know if your state has laws or insurance regulations that differ from whatever is applicable at the other company facilities.

      Keep in mind that every situation is unique, and even if you get answers now, things may turn out differently for you. E.g. how much FMLA you have after you give birth depends on whether you had to use any of it during pregnancy due to being put on bed rest. Also, how long your disability insurance pays out will depend on whether you have a c-section or vaginal birth.

      If you do have this conversation with your HR person, don’t just assume it’ll be kept confidential, you need to explicitly ask for that if it matters to you. (I say this because I once had an HR person tell me that one of my employees had asked for details of our maternal leave policy. I felt very weird about knowing this.)

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Ugh, that lack of confidentiality is what I’m afraid of. My state just passed a paid family leave act which comes into effect next year. It specifically states that each parent is eligible for 12 weeks of leave, regardless whether they work for the same employer. We do work for the same employer, and as of today our policy still states that if both parents are employed here they would need to split the 12 weeks between them. I really hope my HR recognizes this is a problem and updates it before 2020, but I don’t want to point it out to them in case they flag me as likely going to need it soon. (Not currently pregnant but trying!)

  47. Sonia*

    How guilty do you all feel when you pick a bad time to be out of the office? This recently happened to me and it derailed my vacation a bit since my team became so busy. Do you give someone more lenience when it’s a vacation that can’t be avoided (someone’s wedding or a family reunion?)

    1. Miss Fisher*

      I swear it happens to me every single time. I line vacation up, all is well, and then project after project has issues or wants to be completed while I am away. I have someone who covers me, but I always really feel guilty because they have their own workload. I wouldn’t cancel my vacation though because I know eventually I am going to have to cover for someone who is out and the workload evens itself out. Where I work if you want to make sure that your work wouldn’t be busy, I would need to schedule out all vacation in February. But it is sometimes hard not to think about work while away which does stink.

      1. valentine*

        I have no say in coverage, so I feel no guilt about taking my time. My time was approved months in advance, I physically cannot do everything needed to work even a partial shift and so have called out sick, or I have adjusted my shift to accommodate an illness. No guilt. And no hard feelings when other people take time off because they are not the enemy and I can communicate my limit and stick to it. Again, no guilt.

    2. LadyTesla*

      There is never, ever a good time to be out of office. It’s simple as that. I’m a consultant, so I’m always in a uncomfortable position.

      Unless you are managing that team, and it’s on you (alone) to give out and delegate tasks, then it’s a “not your circus, not your monkeys” area. If you are, then as long as you make the plan before hand, and a “in case of emergency call Carl” alternative contact, you are in the clear.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I was out for 3 days last week and during that time, we had a situation come up that I know how to handle, but literally only happens about once every 2-3 years. I didn’t feel guilty at all. I did respond to the person who reached out to me asking about it. Turns out it was a “we just wait” solution, anyway. Still waiting so I can train on the completion, BTW.

    4. Fikly*

      Reframe it in your head. It is not your fault that your company does not arrange for adequate coverage for you to use a benefit they are paying you and should assume you are going to use. When companies make it difficult or impossible to take your vacation days, be it through policy or emotionally, they are stealing from you, as vacation days are part of your compensation for your work.

    5. Agnodike*

      Depends. Are they paying me “think about work on vacation” money? If I’m going to give a chunk of my headspace to work after-hours, I expect to be paid a salary that reflects that extra work. Everybody’s number for “think about work on vacation” money is different, but you’ve gotta know what your number is so you can govern yourself accordingly. If you’re not paid “think about work on vacation” money, you don’t think about work on vacation. If your job is asking you to think about work on vacation but isn’t paying you “think about work on vacation” money, might be time to start thinking about a different job.

  48. juliebulie*

    A valued and beloved coworker and friend, my former boss, died last week after a long fight with cancer. She had gone on STD leave about six weeks earlier, rather abruptly due to another family member’s illness. She didn’t have time to wrap things up, tell me things I needed to know, or even clean out her cubicle, but she did say she’d keep in touch and that we’d have lunch.

    Those things never happened, and now she’s gone.

    Aside from my grief, which is considerable, I am also angry: with her, for leaving unfinished business and for dying; with the universe, for being unfair; with myself, for being angry about stupid things.

    Plus, I’m trying to figure out all the stuff she left behind. I don’t mean her cubicle, but the half-finished work, the undocumented decisions, etc.

    The feelings are tough to deal with. So is the confusion. WHAT do I do?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Anger at the dead in the wake of sudden loss is extremely normal, so step one is to lay off the anger at yourself for feeling it, and to give yourself permission to feel any and all feelings without judgement. Grief is a crazy roller coaster ride all by itself, no need to add some beatings in there.

      Do the best you can to make a list of everything that needs to be dealt with. Don’t try to deal with it, just list it all out to the best of your ability. Once you’ve got that list, you can figure out which ones you can handle, and which ones you need help with. I assume there’s someone who can help you? If you’re not sure, now is the time to find that out too.

      And take time. It’s unlikely anything will implode if you take a fifteen minute break to just get lost in some feelings every now and then. Nothing is going to be so urgent.

      Consider therapy also. I know, I know, that’s the answer for everything, but grief counseling is actually extremely useful.

      I’m so sorry that you have lost your friend, and I am sending healing and peaceful vibes your way.

    2. Not Me*

      I’m so sorry you’ve lost a friend. Have you talked to a therapist? Anger is part of the grief process, which can be difficult and confusing to navigate on your own. A therapist, especially one that specializes in grief, would be very helpful for you I think.

      One thing that’s helped me deal with that kind of complicated grieving when someone dies unexpectedly is writing a letter to them.

    3. bunniferous*

      One step at a time. And the anger is normal. I worked at a different job in the past where something similar happened. No passwords left, even. The manager was left holding the bag. It was very hard, emotionally hard, and beat-your-head-against-the -door frustrating because no preparation was made even tho the deceased knew ahead of time that she would be incapacitated. But one day at a time, one week at a time, we all got through it. People understood, mostly.

      I am so very sorry you are having to deal with this.

    4. HappySharpie*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I haven’t had a colleague die while working with them, but one of my good friends, whom I met while we were co-workers and even called each other work-wife, died unexpectedly about a year and a half ago in her thirties, it was rough and I found myself being irrationally angry that I couldn’t use her as a resource to call and ask questions for things in our mutual field (grief is a strange bed fellow). Allow yourself to feel and ride the wave of shock/anger/sorrow, allow yourself to grieve, and allow yourself to take whatever time it takes. As for the work items, don’t feel like everything has to be done, now, now, now. As a place to start I’d make the following piles either physically/mentally regarding the work: (1) what needs to be taken care of as soon as possible and who needs to do it (does someone else need to make a decision, or confirm a decision? If so pass it off to that person) – focus on this pile first – the other piles can wait, (2) what just needs finished/polishing off/etc, and who needs to do it (again assign out as needed), (3) new projects she had, but either hadn’t gotten far on them or hadn’t started – treat these as brand new projects and assign them out; (4) the work no-one knows what it is/doesn’t seem time sensitive (like maybe it was a personal work project etc) – put this in a file and make sure where everyone knows where it is. If some client/person needs it or asks about something in a file you can take it out and assign it as a new project; (5) the personal stuff pile – (there’s no timeline on this pile…you do it when you want) clean out the cubical of personal items when you want…when family wants…when the company wants. If it won’t be going to her family then just put it in a box and it can be the box that you deal with whenever is right for you.

    5. Goldfinch*

      I’ve done this with a dotted-line manager who was on vacation to tour retirement villages in Florida…she never made it back.

      I had a weird brain dichotomy where I felt guilty for figuring out what needed to be done relatively easily (not that the work was quick in itself, but just that re-building the framework of a game plan came together fairly painlessly). I felt like I was erasing her impact/importance and that I should have “performed” that process more strenuously.

      Obviously I know better that I wasn’t devaluing her as a person, but recognizing and labeling that mental struggle helped.

    6. emmelemm*

      I think all these feelings are normal. I had a colleague die unexpectedly last year, and he took about 60% of our small company’s institutional knowledge with him. It’s been really, really hard.

      The universe is definitely unfair.

  49. IndoorCat*

    Has anyone ever had to take an exam before moving to the next round of an interview process? If so, what’s your take these tests?

    I just did two: a cognitive test that involved math problems, pattern recognition, SAT-style analogies, that sort of thing, and a “personality” test where ostensibly there were no wrong answers, but it seemed like some of the questions probably did have wrong answers (i.e. questions about how often you’re jealous of others, if you’re a good team player, how often you lose your temper, etc).

    It’s for a marketing job at a fairly big company, and it would definitely be a step up for me. But, I’m not sure how SAT analogies, math problems, and a self-report personality test help them figure out if I’d be good at writing SEO content or designing a marketing campaign? Or is it just one of those things big corporations do now, like how business types got really into Meyers-Briggs assessments a while back?

    Could I potentially be eliminated from this round because I couldn’t divide 3000/75 without a calculator? (a calculator was forbidden, and the exam was filmed so you couldn’t cheat). It seems like a less-than-great metric for a marketing applicant, but then, maybe they just have a ton of applicants and need to weed a lot of people out? Or is there a better rationale that I’m missing?

    1. Coco*

      When I applied to GE years ago, had to take a 2 hour SAT multiple choice test. And anyone who didn’t get a certain score was not invited to interview. As far as what they get out of it… I dunno.

    2. CheeryO*

      I had to do a pre-interview personality assessment a few years back. It seemed like complete nonsense, and just something that they could point to when bragging about their awesome ~company culture~, which they did many times during my interview. The people there all seemed nice and everything, but the pay sucked for the area, so I didn’t take the job.

    3. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I took something similar to a Meyers Brigg test for a role where being collaborative was very important. I later found out that I had answered things the way they hoped I did. I think they’d had experience with people not being a good fit due to leadership style.

    4. Bear Shark*

      I had to take one for a past job in customer service. I assume that it showed them that I do well on multiple choice tests and can convincingly fake my personality test to match job requirements.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      We’ve just started using personality assessments as part of our hiring process (similar to Myers Briggs, but not that one), and at first I was really against them. Every person on the team who is going to be a manager takes the quiz, and our top 2-3 finalists for a role take the quiz. We use it as a way to scan for major personality clashes between employee and manager, but it is by no means a be-all-end-all for hiring. After I took my own assessment, I was SHOCKED by how accurately it described me, down to some very specific aspects of my approach to work and coworkers. It was helpful in highlighting key differences between two top tier candidates and confirming concerns I had about one candidate’s suitability to the culture we have here.

      I don’t know about the cognitive test. I know our research staff uses them in their hiring, but since it’s a well-known exam, there’s a way to “game” the test so we take the results with a grain of salt and, like the personality test, use it as just one piece of datum amongst other data points that help provide us with a full picture.

    6. lemon*

      I had to take the Wonderlic assessment before being hired at Old Job, which was a creative position. I don’t know how well I did, but apparently good enough to be hired. It was annoying, though, and seems kind of pointless.

    7. 867-5309*

      I had to do this… Based on insights from my interviewers, it’s only partially about the right answer and more about how quickly you answer, how close you guess, things like that. It’s not what it seems, which is super annoying.

      I got high points for accuracy, low points for speed. It’s supposed to tell them something about how I work and how I’d fit into the work style and needs of the team.

    8. Coffeelover*

      These kind of tests are HUGE in Scandinavia. Since moving here, every interview I have been on has included these. As far as I understand though, they get less common the higher up you go. I think it’s bad/lazy hiring. A way to decrease the candidate pool in a less than totally arbitrary way… though still pretty damn arbitrary in my opinion. As for whether you can be eliminated: yes totally. In fact, if you don’t pass the bar you will almost 100% be eliminated. I have many anecdotes from myself and others that were amazing, talented people that got cut because they didn’t pass the personality/pattern recognition/whatever test. My husband once got eliminated after a couple of rounds of interviews because he didn’t pass a fairly basic math test. Not sure what happened there (maybe just a bad day)… but my hubby taught university level math. I think the interviewers could figure out he can do math without the test. He ended up landing a much more prestigious role where he is now a star – so their loss in the end.

      All that was a bit of a rant, but I really can’t stand these tests. And I really hope they don’t take over in the rest of the world.

      But I also don’t think you should worry. You don’t need to get every answer right. You just need to get enough to pass. It’s a pass/fail situation. Besides you did the best you could and sometimes that’s all you can do.

      1. 867-5309*

        Where in Scandinavia?

        I moved to Norway and that’s always when I started having to take these tests.

        1. Coffeelover*

          I’m in Sweden. I interviewed with a Norwegian company for a position in their local office in my home country once and got these tests too. I thought they were so weird at the time, but then I realize it’s super common here.

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      When I applied to P&G for a brand ambassador role, I had to do this exact setup – it was annoying because, like you, I said, “What the hell does this have to do with the price of tea in China?” After I submitted the (admittedly) rushed answers to these exams, I received a rejection letter stating that I didn’t pass a section of their assessment. I was highly annoyed because outside of a Walgreens cashier job and a Macy’s seasonal role I applied to ages ago (before beginning my professional career), I’d never had to do this nonsense before.

      So no, I don’t think this is a widespread thing. I’ve worked for other major companies since, and none of them have made applicants take exams. Do writing assessments and/or provide samples? Yes, but not personality tests. Those exams don’t tell you anything useful and I think it’s a lazy way to whittle down an applicant pool.

    10. Washed Out Data Analyst*

      Yep – for my current job, though it wasn’t too difficult. I really can’t say what the point of it is…but when I joined, I was allowed to see my results.

      1. Washed Out Data Analyst*

        FTR – 3000/75 = (100/5) x (30/15) = 20 x 2 = 40

        You just have to simplify the numbers.

        1. Baru Cormorant*

          As someone who struggles with math… how is that simpler?? You went from division of some numbers to multiplication of others…?

          1. IndoorCat*

            It’s not how I ultimately figured it. But. it’s simpler in the sense that the numbers are smaller, so they’re easier to do in your head. So, if a big number is made of two smaller numbers multiplied together, you can break the number down.

            But it’s not simpler if you don’t know, like, “7.5 x 4 = 30” off the top of your head, and then just add the appropriate number of zeroes back on the end.

          2. Washed Out Data Analyst*

            100/5 = 20

            30/15 = 2

            So 20 x 2 = 40

            Instead of solving one large fraction, you break them up into smaller fractions.

        2. IndoorCat*

          I mean, what I ended up doing was like, somehow, remembering that two “75’s” is 150, and two “150’s” is 300. So if 75*4=300, then 75*40=3000.

          But honestly I took way too long on that problem Probably didn’t do well on the test in the end.

          1. Washed Out Data Analyst*

            This works too, logic-wise! But for me it would have been more difficult since the numbers are bigger.

            1. Washed Out Data Analyst*

              What you ended up doing was multiplying both the nominator and denominator by 4, so that 12000/300 = 40.

    11. Curmudgeon in California*

      I’m looking at one of those cognitive and personality tests myself. I took the sample test, and came out at 88% (average was 50%).

      BUT.

      The test questions were the kind of thing that possibly discriminates against certain learning disabilities and cognitive impairments, some of which I have, and some of which are associated with aging. This makes me very uncomfortable. They are using a supposedly “objective” test which by its structure is biased against people with memory problems, vision problems, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalcula, non-english speakers, face blind people, etc.

      But I can’t divide 3000/75 sans calculator, and they give you only about 20 seconds per answer. I can’t differentiate between low contrast images well. I have an astounding vocabulary, but they were wanting similar/dissimilar for words *I* barely knew! This is for a technical position. Even getting the practice app for the test and playing with it has deepened my unease.

      Yeah, I’m smart enough to overcome my limitations and do well on it, but if they only take the top 95%? I can pretty much guarantee those people will be young, native English speakers, have no learning disabilities, and probably be male.

      I suspect they are headed for an ADA suit sometime in the future.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        You’re not wrong. Google “William Cannon and Dallis Perry” to see how biased personality tests have been used to keep women out of tech for decades.

        1. Jen2*

          As a female programmer who probably would have done well on those personality tests, I’m a bit conflicted. It is a bit lonely being one of a very small number of women in my role, but it was really nice in high school to be able to choose a career path that suited my abilities and personality and desired salary level. It probably would have been a much harder decision if tech tended to appeal to a more outgoing group of people.

  50. Moving to open space*

    We are moving offices and leaving a space with 80’s style high fabric covered cube walls where each cube has 1 person to lots of glass, lower walls, and shared spaces, ‘agile desks’. Basically everyone on the team wants quiet and privacy and the company wants open, collaborative, meetings anywhere, video conferences anywhere type of space. How do people deal with change? I am in IT. We tend to be private introverts who just want to quietly focus. I don’t want to show up in someone else’s teleconference. I don’t want to roll my chair to get up and ram into the coworker I’m sharing this new cube with. Other than headphones, any advice?

    1. Bananatiel*

      We just made a move in November to a similar office environment and I’m in a “bullpen” with three other designers. We have enough space but the lack of privacy and noise gets to me. There’s been enough collective pushback that we’re all able to schedule remote days as needed which has been a godsend for me. Even one day out of the week makes a big difference in my ability to get things done and my sanity when I return to the fishbowl (ha).

    2. Bear Shark*

      We moved to a similar style this year. I try to come in early or stay late (not on the same days if I can help it) or work from home part of the day.

    3. A tester, not a developer*

      I’m making a similar move next week. I’ve been getting in the habit of putting on headphones when I come in each morning and listening to music (even though I’m still in a cube), so that when I don’t have a nice private cube anymore I’ll already have a routine to build my own ‘quiet place’.

    4. TomTomTime*

      This just happened to me and it’s just insanely distracting. I am going to try to negotiate multiple work from home days per week, because unless the stars align, I simply can’t concentrate most of the time in the open space.

      Supposedly we’re getting noise-cancelling headphones at some point. Hopefully that will make it better.

    5. MikeFromWildmount*

      I cope with music (or just silence) and Sennheiser HD280 Professional over-the-ear accoustic isolating headphones. They were cheaper than noise-cancelling headphones, which I found didn’t filter out voices very well at all.

      We have a mix of cubicle farm and open office plan, and the headphones cut down the noise considerably, and let me concentrate better when it’s noisy.
      It also has the advantage of giving a ‘busy’ signal if I am working and don’t look up.
      I would go nuts without them, because the noise gets very distracting at times.
      Most of our department uses earbuds as well.

    6. Coffeelover*

      I’m not sure if companies want an open, collaborative space or if they just want to save money on rent and equipment… but anyway…

      Sound cancelling headphones are a godsend. Closed spaces where you can have meetings and take phone calls are essential (though maybe not in your control). A designated quiet area is also great – an area of desks you and your coworkers agree is meant for focused work. The only other thing is to be considerate of others when doing loud/distracting things while also being sympathetic to your shared situation. What I mean here is that you shouldn’t take a loud call in the open space, but you also shouldn’t begrudge someone for occasionally being loud – because it will happen and it’s easier if you just let it roll off your back. If their loud gets too frequent or too intrusive then open and kind communication is key. And as others have mentioned: remote days are great if you can swing them.

    7. Curmudgeon in California*

      I’m so sorry. It will just suck.

      Open plans are the cargo cult fad of the decade: “Facebook/Google have open plan and are innovative and successful, therefore if we do open plan we will be innovative and successful.”

      My employer moved us out of shared offices and cubes to a brand new “open and collaborative” (gag) open plan. Then, when they realized that a lot of people hated the idea, offered classes in “managing change with resilience”. Uh, no. Office moves don’t require “resilience”, and not liking open plans doesn’t mean I’m not “resilient”. Insulting. A lot of the communication was like that.

      When it came time for the move, they wouldn’t let those of us with ergo chairs take them because the “new” chairs were “adjustable” – yes, it was more important that everyone had identical chairs than having people with ergo issues have chairs that fit. Guess what? The new chairs don’t fit, aren’t adjustable enough, and are too small for me.

      Headphones help a little. But they don’t help with visual distraction and people tapping you on the shoulder.

      The only reason I haven’t had a complete meltdown in the new office (that has a significantly longer and nastier commute) is that we get to work from home two days a week. Even so, I’m looking for a new gig, 100% remote.

      I’m in IT, a quiet introvert, and the only reason my area works for my team at all is that we are all quiet introverts who will literally Slack each other rather than stand up and yell.

      If your department/group is introverts, and they seat you near introverts, it can go ok. But if they sit you near some loud extroverts, you will need your headphones, and even then some jerk on a speakerphone can overpower them.

  51. Little Beans*

    How do you balance experience and current performance in determining salary? Let’s say you have a large group of people who ostensibly all do the same job, but they obviously have different levels of experience and perform at different levels. It makes sense that you should reward people’s experience, and that you have to keep increasing their salary if you want them to stay. But then if new people come in at a lower salary and are producing work at the same level, or a higher level, should their salaries be increased to match the more experienced staff?

    On the one hand, what’s the incentive to work harder if the only way to make more money is to be there longer? But on the other hand, what’s the incentive to stay somewhere if your years of experience don’t get rewarded?

    1. valentine*

      If the years of experience make a difference, set a raise level for that, and another one for hitting the higher level. But at some point, unless there are goals they can reach that youcan usetoset raise levels, they’re going to hit a ceiling and others may hit it faster and sooner.

    2. Coffeelover*

      Levels and bands. Meaning level 1 makes between 30-35k, level 2 makes 35-40k, etc (fill with whatever numbers make sense). Someone who performs well can go from level 1 to level 2 in a year. Another person may take several years to get there. Responsibilities should hopefully differ as well when you move up the levels where you get more opportunity to lead project, supervise others, do more challenging work, etc. This is a pretty common setup that most professionals understand and accept. I think it should be a transparent system where people understand what level they’re at, why they’re there and what they can do to reach the next level. (Unfortunately, few companies operate this transparently.)

      As valentine said though, you can’t keep getting raises forever. If you stay in the same role, you will hit a salary plateau. At this point, people need to decide if they want to advance/change jobs to get a higher salary. A lot of people will and a lot of people won’t. People stay for other reasons besides more money such as: good benefits, good work-life balance, a nice culture, a great boss, opportunities to learn and do new things, comfort and safety, etc.

      1. Little Beans*

        The problem is that, at our organization, there are only 4 levels for the work we do, and it’s a pretty wide salary range within each level (that overlaps with the other levels). Almost everyone at our organization is a 2 or 3, it’s rare for anyone to be a 1 unless they’re brand new to the workforce and also pretty rare for anyone to get to a 4. And then once you’re a 4, you can keep getting small raises but you can’t move up any higher.

        1. Coffeelover*

          I’m not sure if I understand exactly… I think your talking about this scenario: One person has a lot of experience and earns a salary at the top of level 2. Another person has much less experience, produces the same quality of work, but they’re at the bottom of level 2. And in your case that difference is large.

          Stepping back a bit to your original question, I think output is more important than experience. You pay people to do the work, not to have the experience. Their experience may help them produce better work, but someone else’s natural talent may do the same. From a business and fairness perspective (and in an ideal world), these people should be paid the same. That may mean some disgruntled “experienced” people, but on the flip side isn’t it better to lose mediocre “experienced” people than to lose talented people because they feel they’re not being fairly compensated. Isn’t it better to have a culture of performance rather than a culture of “sticking around long enough”. In reality it usually depends on what you/your company values more.

    3. CM*

      I think people should be rewarded based on how much value they’re adding to the team and not how long they’ve been there. Most of the time, people who’ve been in a job for a long time will naturally be adding value, because they have institutional knowledge or they’re cross-trained on different tasks or they’ve just gotten really good at doing their jobs. If somebody isn’t adding value that way, and they’re just sitting in a desk year over year doing the exact same thing, I don’t know why you’d give them more than a cost of living increase as reward for that. I also don’t know why you’d care if they leave, since you could replace them with someone just as good.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      if new people come in at a lower salary and are producing work at the same level, or a higher level, should their salaries be increased to match the more experienced staff?
      Yes. If they are at the same level or a higher level than the more experienced people, then the experience doesn’t matter as much. Some people get good faster. Reward the results, not the duration.

  52. LessNosy*

    So, I finally told my boss that I am burning out… yay! The conversation didn’t go horribly. I explained that my continuous projects/duties (of which there are so many) are making it difficult for me to complete one-off projects without working 10-12 hours a day, and that these long hours seem to be my new normal ever since I was given a large, new responsibility in April.

    Hiring more people is off the table thanks to our parent company, but she said we would look at my project list next week and discuss if anything could be re-delegated or change the process on anything… she also said that she would probably stop giving me additional projects and pushing back on people who request things of me.

    Still actively job searching, but at least maybe I won’t cry every day going forward! Hooray!

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      Good for you! That’s a great conversation and a solid start to pushing back. Is she going to have your back if people come to you directly and ask?

  53. JimmyJab*

    Question on behalf of my partner (male). Partner’s private tech-related workplace just fired a very higher up for sexual harassment of several subordinates. Partner had a very positive working/mentoring relationships with the man who was fired and feels very duped as this man portrayed himself, and in public acted, as a woke ally while behind the scenes being incredibly inappropriate towards young women. Partner is, I think reasonably, feeling distrustful of his other relationships at work now, particularly with the executive men (Partner is not management) and because this is unfortunately common in tech (as well as other industries, obviously). This was very recent, so I imagine Partner’s feelings will change with time, but struggling a great deal currently. Has anyone else dealt with something like this? Any perspective to offer, ways to have good work relationships with people despite worrying that something like this will happen again?

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      I would guess he would learn a lot about his other colleagues from their reaction to the firing. Many people say the right things in general discussions but when confronted with a specific example of someone they know, it’s all “gone too far” and “I can’t believe it was that bad, he’s so nice” and so on.

      Otherwise he can discourage the creeps to think he is one of them, and feel ethical, just by being very clear about his own position, and mentally vowing to say something in the moment if he sees anything sketchy.

      But ultimately these people are very good at picking their audience and in some ways the fact that he had no idea speaks very well for your partner – this harasser obviously knew your partner was not the audience for any comments about women that crossed the line. I would bet others who didn’t project that heard, and laughed along with, some edgelord stuff over their time working with him.

    2. 867-5309*

      Let’s say 20% of all men in leadership positions do crappy things like this. (Don’t yell at me – just giving numbers for illustrative purposes!!!) 80% don’t. So the majority of people are good, upstanding, well-intentioned, etc. It might help to put it in that perspective.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      So, I think this is where explaining the concept of “Schrodinger’s Harasser” to your partner might be helpful.

      Women go through the world on guard, because we know that while *most* men aren’t harassers or assaulters, the ones who are don’t usually wear a sign to let us know. So we start off guarded until we know a guy well enough to decide what level of trust to give him. If your husband can start using a similar mindset, it might help him to cope with some of this. “Most of my coworkers and higher ups are not sexual harassers, but some of them might be, so I’m going to watch and listen and learn before I make any firm decisions about them.”

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I think it’s really normal to have your trust shaken when you find out someone you liked has been duplicitous and secretly up to no good.

      We all like to believe we’re great judges of character who can perceive lies & false fronts. Being proven wrong shakes our own sense of safety with other people.

      That’s the same whether the wrongs being done were harassment, embezzlement, or some kind of personal betrayal.

      It’s just going to take some time for him to come to terms with it, and everyone else who didn’t know is in the same boat.

    5. OrigCassandra*

      Would it help Partner to frame this as Very Higher Up betraying him and everyone else in that workplace?

      I ask because that reframing is part of how I coped with an analogous situation.

  54. Quill*

    Work from home today because tendonitis made me feel really awful the last two days, but I’m feeling weird about whether or not that was “enough” of a reason to take it when several things I need to work on (not urgently but in the background, think uploading documents to a server) can’t be accessed offsite.

    For context, this is the first job I’ve ever had where WFH was even possible, let alone allowed. And I feel (marginally) better today, but probably would not be if I’d had to drive.

    1. juliebulie*

      Tendinitis doesn’t heal without plenty of rest, so if working from home makes it easier to rest your tendon, you shouldn’t feel weird about it. Just prioritize the kinds of tasks that are better suited to working from home, and then do the other stuff when you’re back in the office.

      Think of it another way: If you don’t rest your tendon you’ll end up having to work from home (or missing work) even more because of it.

      1. Quill*

        My brain knows, but my anxiety doesn’t, you know?

        Previous workplaces have given me plenty of grief over my medical issues. :/

        1. juliebulie*

          It is funny how tendons always need rest, but our anxiety is so relentless.
          Nevertheless, see if you can tell your anxiety to be cool for a while. At least wait till someone at this place gives you some grief. They might not!

          1. Quill*

            Signs are good that this office will be more chill, but the brainweasels are still on high alert.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      Similar situation for me. I have been telling myself this week that no one says on their death bed “I wish I spent more time at the office.”

  55. DaniCalifornia*

    No questions, just doing a happy dance! I have a 3rd interview with a company Monday morning! 1st was a phone one about 4 weeks ago, 2nd was in person mid month. They want me to meet with the remainder of the leadership team/executives because I apparently really impressed the CEO which doesn’t happen often. I am so excited!! The company looks amazing from what I’ve seen, read, and heard from them. It could even be a bump in pay (wasn’t really looking for that) but they offer amazing benefits and have a great culture and better work life balance! (No more busy tax seasons hooray!) There are no other candidates I’m up against either so that pressure is taken off. I’m praying I get the opportunity to work with this company! Please keep your fingers crossed. I would love to put in notice to my toxic job next week.

  56. Great beyond*

    I started a new internship (I’m female) and there is another intern “John” who has been there longer and is in a higher position, but not a manager. At first I thought that he was cool to chat with and we talked a little. He would tease me, but nothing major. It’s a male-dominated culture, so there is a lot of joking around and teasing.

    Things have changed and it’s starting to make me nervous. John makes sexist remarks. He sometimes stares at me and I’m not sure what to do about it. Another time I was walking to the cafeteria and he was walking behind me. He then started to follow me and walk faster, but not say anything. He seems to get a kick out of making me feel uncomfortable. I made a comment about the weather because I was nervous.

    Usually no one is around when he does this, of course, so I feel like I’m going insane because he acts different when others are around.

    I’ve been in toxic places and had guys do this to me. I’m not sure how to react or if I’m overreacting.

    Any thoughts?

    1. merp*

      Just want to chime in to say I know how easy it is to wonder if you’re overreacting or imagining things but please take my permission to trust your gut! This guy is doing things that make you uncomfortable and he’s doing them out of the notice of others for a reason – he knows he’s being a creep. If you have a manager or other colleague you can trust, bringing this up to them might be helpful. If they don’t support you, I’m not sure what a next step would be – but maybe sticking to groups in the meantime might help if it’s possible. You absolutely don’t deserve to have to think of ways to avoid him, this is not on you, it just might ease some of the discomfort until something else can be done.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Trust your gut and document.

      Mention it to someone you trust now. Say something like “whenever I’m alone with John, he says and does things that make me really uncomfortable and I’m not sure how to deal with it”. Go armed with specific examples and describe how he makes you feel. It might be useful to try and write those feelings down first just so that you have clarity when you speak later.

      You’re not overreacting. This is a crappy thing that happens to women in the workplace, particularly women on the lower end of the totem pole, and it needs to be stamped out.

    3. HappySharpie*

      Also, in addition to what everyone has said here, and only, ONLY, if you feel safe enough to do it…start calling him out in the moment. Sexist comment, “Wow dude, inappropriate sexism.” And when he tries to gaslight you and say you can’t take a joke, or that he was just joking, and he thought you were a cool girl he could joke with say, “Yeah, but there’s a line and you’re way over it. When he tries to follow you to the cafeteria turn around quickly and with a surprised look say any of the following, “Are you following me?” “Where’s the fire, careful not to mow me down,” “Do you need to pass there, Jeff Gordon?” And when he says no…or something else stupid say, “Well it sounded like you were Jason Vorhees coming up behind me.” Basically just make it super awkward for him to try and justify his actions (and know that ANY justification for this behavior is not acceptable). It may also let him know that you know he’s a creeper and he may not focus on you anymore. Sorry you’re dealing with this.

    4. Joielle*

      Nope, that guy is a jackass. I’ve been in this exact situation (why are so many men like this) and I basically just started being a jerk to the guy, which is kind of hard to make yourself do at first, but he left me alone after a while.

      I know it’s hard, but try to override your natural inclination to smooth things over and avoid awkwardness. If he’s following you, abruptly turn around and go the other way, or just stop walking – tie your shoe or something – and see what he does. If he’s looking at you, say “did you need something?” or “are you looking at me?” If he makes a sexist remark, just say “yikes” and let the awkward silence hang in the air. Don’t smile at him. Be cold to him in private but nice and warm with others in public.

      He knows exactly what he’s doing! You can make it obvious that you know it too. If he mentions that you’re acting different, just say “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    5. Wearing Many Hats*

      You should go to your manager or who ever runs the internship program and let them know this is happening. They will be able to take your concerns to HR if you don’t feel comfortable escalating it (and you don’t have to! You are just starting out in your career). You should always feel comfortable at work and even if John thinks his actions are benign, he needs to know that this is not professional behavior.

    6. Clever Name*

      You are reacting normally to an abnormal situation. You feel crazy because the icky guy is acting crazy. It’s not you, it’s him. You are NOT over reacting.

      Do you trust whoever oversees your work? I think it’s time to tell them what’s going on. If you decide you do not want to be alone with him, that is a completely reasonable response to his creepy and threatening behavior.

    7. Reliquary*

      Trust yourself. You know he’s being a creeper. Try not to let him know you’re shook, because that’s what he wants.

      Call out his actions in the moment. Document everything he does in an off-site journal or computer.

      When you have a solid, documented list of creepy/unwanted stuff he’s done, that’s when you go to your internship supervisor.

  57. Look Left*

    I’ve found myself in an odd situation, and I’m wondering if anyone can relate. I’m on a small team; my boss and coworkers are somewhat older than me, and have families with young children. I know there have been discussions on here about how much of your personal life to bring to work. In the case of my team members, it often feels like too much. During our team meetings, it routinely takes forty-five minutes to an hour to discuss business, as my boss and coworkers commiserate over dirty diapers, childcare challenges, nasty in-laws, grandparents, camps, children’s tv shows, waiting lists for kindergarten, and other issues. I understand that working mothers face a lot of challenges, but as someone with no kids yet, I have nothing to contribute and sometimes feel uncomfortable with this amount of sharing at work. No one ever asks how I’m doing or what’s going on in my life, but I feel obliged to commiserate. Since my manager participates and I don’t have many other issues with my workplace, this isn’t the sword I want to fall on. Just wondering if others have ever felt the same way. Thank you.

    1. Moray*

      My technique, when a conversation I’m not able to escape takes a turn toward something I have no interest in, is to “contribute” in a way that plays up my cluelessness.

      “Kids! They sure do…say and do things.”

      You have to know your audience and watch your tone, and people don’t always take or care about the hint, but at least I’m amusing myself a little.

      “Yes… knitting. I love how it involves yarn and sticks I think.”

      “That book is great. Has a plot! Definitely made of paper!”

      “Camping. Being outdoors in a house made of fabric, frequently in the vicinity of trees, yes? Always a hoot.”

      1. CheeryO*

        I wouldn’t go there in a meeting involving your supervisor. I believe that you can pull it off, but there’s way too much risk of sounding snarky. I’d just stay quiet while giving the usual cues that you’re listening – smile, nod, eye contact, small polite laugh, etc.

        1. Quill*

          A warm “I’m glad you had fun / your kids are doing well / you’re happy about sportsball,” sounds a lot less like possible snark, in my experience.

          “Would you like to join the Fifty Shades of Awkward book club?” can be met with “Sorry to disappoint, but I’ve been working on finishing reading War and Peace for the last five years, I don’t think I’d be able to fit it into my schedule.”

          “Did you see Hour Long Sex Joke, the Seth Rogen movie?” “Nope, I spent my weekend cleaning my grout with a toothbrush. Hope you had fun, did you know that the pink stains you can get in your grout is a bacterial biofilm?”

    2. WellRed*

      I have several coworkers with small children. They do not derail meetings like this. You not having kids isn’t the only reason you find this annoying.

      1. Look Left*

        Point taken, WellRed. In this case, it’s the distraction and lack of focus that causes a problem. I added the caveat about working mothers/not having kids because I know it’s an issue that can make people defensive. I understand that my coworkers and boss may want to catch up for five minutes or so, but the amount of time this takes feels extreme and rather self-absorbed. However, I’m also an occasional recipient of delightful “Oh, once you’re a mother, [x, y, z] won’t bother you” comments, which doesn’t help.

        That said, we are otherwise an efficient team and I don’t have a lot of other complaints. Maybe this issue is just something I file away for later in my career if I’m a manager or supervisor. As in, care about your direct reports, but don’t make them a captive audience to your personal drama.

  58. Toxic waste*

    What do you call it when coworkers are talking about you within earshot, but not directing it at you?

    For example, I was at my desk working quietly and “Jane” and “Rhonda” are talking. Jane says to Rhonda,” Oh, Michelle is so social! It’s so nice to have an employee that is talks!” (They then look at me.)

    They also like pitting people against each other. “Oh, Toxic Waste, Michelle is such a fast typer” or “Wakeen is so good at this. He’s such a great worker.”

    It may not seem like it from the way it’s written, but when they say the words, they were going out of their way to put me down. I stood up to copy something and their eyes were on me.

    I try and talk with them, but it doesn’t help or matter. They still try and start drama.

    I know they’re talking about me, but it’s like they’re sort of being hostile in a passive-aggressive way?

    I’m not confrontational and hate drama, but this is the second work place that it’s happening to me and it’s getting old. Should I say something? What if they deny it? How do you handle a situation like this? Ignoring it doesn’t help.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I think you can deal with it by calling them out direct. It’ll solve the problem of them doing it within your hearing, and if they keep doing it behind your back, well, it’s behind your back and you can’t hear it so there’s peace of mind there.

      When they try something “Oh, Michelle is so social! It’s so nice to have an employee that is talks!” and then they look pointedly at you, I would immediately jump on that. Raise your head and ask them “do you need help with something?” or “do you need to discuss something with me?” or even, possibly more to the point, “do you have a problem?”

      It’s been my experience that bullies are, at hearts, cowards. When confronted, they immediately shrivel up. They’re only powerful when no one is fighting back. This is bothering you so face it head on if you can. If they keep it up, document, document, document, but also try and change how you’re viewing this.

      Treat them as you would particularly troublesome children: patiently and with clear words.

    2. Mid*

      I do have to wonder why it’s happening at two workplaces. Is there something in how you interact that makes people think you’re unfriendly/unkind?

      I only ask because I have MAJOR RBF, and people used to be scared to approach me at all. People thought I was rude and unfriendly, when I was just focused on things and not aware of the world around me (ADHD hyper-focus mode!) I made an effort to be more friendly and open with my coworkers and peers to counter-act my Don’t Talk To Me vibes that I give off.

      That said, even if you were giving off a ~vibe~ what your coworkers are doing is not okay!

      I would call them out, but I’m a rather direct person. When they mention your name, ask if they need anything (“Can I help you?” preferably with a cool expression and a raised eyebrow to show you are not amused.)

      When they start gossiping about other people to you, reply with “oh, that was rude/unkind” or “that’s not my impression/understanding at all.”

      When they start pitting people against each other, ignore it, or coolly agree (“Yes, Michelle is a great typist! I’m glad she does all the copy-writing for our team!”) and refuse to be pitted against someone. You could also say “yes, we all have different strengths we bring to this project.”

      You could also make it clear you don’t have time for their nonsense by refusing to engage in it. Or ask them to decrease the volume of their personal conversations. (“Sorry, would you mind talking a bit more quietly? It’s hard to focus on my work.”)

      It’s not confrontational to shut-down their gossip/drama. It’s sanity protection, for your own sake.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        +1 to major RBF when concentrating. I’ve had people take three steps back when they interrupted my intense work and I turned toward them, without even saying anything – I still had my concentration face on. (ADHD Dx as a kid – it doesn’t go away.)

    3. Darren*

      I’m going to agree on calling them out on the fact you’ve noticed your name/them looking at you. You can easily play it off as being focused on work, noticing your name/them looking and turning to them and saying, “Can I help you with something?” they’ll probably ask why you think they wanted something and you mention what you noticed i.e. “I heard my name so I thought that you needed me for something?” or “I saw you looking at me and figured you wanted my attention.” when they indicate there is nothing they need your help with you turn back to your work and carry on.

      It makes it a quite awkward for them, and highlights the fact you are working while they are gossiping. It’ll also be quite disruptive to their ability to gossip if they are looking at you pointedly and are about halfway through a sentence when you say, “Can I help you with something?” and if you ask them it multiple times in a several minute period because they keep either mentioning your name or looking pointedly at you.

  59. Foreign Octopus*

    I think this is definitely related to work but if it’s not, I apologise.

    I’m listening to Taylor Swift’s new album and she has a song on there called “The Man”. It’s basically a thought experiment on how her career would have gone if she had been a man but had made all the same decisions and the same mistakes, and it’s really interesting.

    So I got to thinking for all the women out there, how do you think your career would be different if you were a man?

    1. FirstTimer*

      For me personally, in my current position, I would make at least 5k more a year and most likely not be responsible for taking minutes and notes at every. single. meeting I’m involved in (and some I’m not). To be clear, if these things were actually in my original job description and there was not an EA who was expected to do them when he was hired on, I wouldn’t have an issue doing it.

    2. Arielle*

      The one thing that springs immediately to mind is that, in my first job out of grad school, I’m sure I would not have been expected to make the coffee every morning when I was the only person in the office who didn’t drink it.

      1. Bananatiel*

        This was kind of a thing in my last job and it really annoyed me– I was in the cubicle closest to the coffee maker and the office manager, located at the opposite side of the floor, would chastise me for not making more coffee midday or not catching that the empty pot was burning on the hot plate while I was… away at a meeting lol. I don’t drink coffee– at all! I held firm on that one and she eventually dropped it but there was a distinct sense I wasn’t being a good “sister” in the office.

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        Oh no! Especially since you didn’t drink it! i don’t drink coffee. When someone asks me if I’ll make it (it’s only happened outside of the office, no machine at current job) I usually shrug my shoulders and say “Sorry I don’t know how.”

        If I had been in your shoes and still had to do it, I would have been so salty I would have made that coffee taste so bad they’d be begging me not to do it! LOL

    3. Bananatiel*

      As a designer, I’ve experienced the thing where I mention an idea in a brainstorm, it’s pretty much instantly rejected, and then one minute later a man mentions it and it’s the best idea in the world. It’s not an all-the-time thing, but it happens enough that I frequently wish I were a man sometimes, ha.

    4. Booksaregood*

      I would’ve broken into the industry much sooner and easier, and I’d be making way more money – probably $10k more – like my male coworker who didn’t have the Masters I did nor the professional experience. I’d also have much more respect from staff from other departments – no more people interrupting me, disagreeing with me, or straight-up not believing what I’m saying. Haha I’m bitter thank god it’s Friday.

    5. CheeryO*

      Engineer at a state government agency here – I wouldn’t be making any more money, but I’m sure things would be subtly different. I probably wouldn’t get talked over or ignored as often. My supervisor probably wouldn’t bring up my pleasant personality in my performance evaluations. I certainly wouldn’t get treated like my very existence is odd by my coworkers and our regulated community. (You would think it was 1970 based on the way some people react to me – “Wooowweee, a feeemale engineer!”)

    6. SarahKay*

      I’d be on about $8k more a year, I’d get interrupted less in meetings, and I’d get invited to all the coffee breaks, the on-line chat groups, and the brunches, instead of getting feedback that “SarahKay needs to make more effort to mingle with the team” – where the team is 95% male, and it’s only as we’ve had new men joining the team that I’ve even discovered that some of these ‘group’ things are happening.
      That said, my current manager is a man and is absolutely amazing. He’s supported me against others when they’ve suggested that my communication style is a bit strong (subtext of ‘strong for a woman’ – grrr!), has called out people who refer to female coworkers as girls, and has brought my salary considerably more into line with the rest of the team than it was.

    7. Former Academic Librarian*

      I would have started out at a higher salary, and already been named a department director. I also (don’t think) I would have been expected to put up with creepy sexist behavior from students/colleagues/patrons/donors.

    8. Quill*

      I might have stood a chance of being hired for a non-contract job in STEM at some point in the last few years.

    9. Ann O.*

      I don’t think my career would be dramatically different, but I do think my ex-manager would have managed me differently. Because there was a dramatic difference in how he responded to my (awesome!) male co-worker with whom I partnered on projects often. I held very technical responsibilities in that role, and even though I was generally acknowledged as a rockstar by everyone else involved with my work, he constantly seemed surprised that I could actually do my job.

    10. Goldfinch*

      Less getting hit on and hassled from ages 22-32, less getting ignored from age 35 and up. But golly, those three years in between were just great! /s

    11. Lady Jay*

      About a year ago, I left a stable, long-term job to pursue a PhD. I’m not sure I would have felt a need to do that, if I were a man. The job was in a conservative, religious institution in a conservative, religious part of the United States, and while we had female leaders, it was clear that men had more opportunities for leadership, were more trusted, had to jump through fewer hoops to get people on board with their ideas. I would have been in the exact same spot for 20 years if I’d stayed.

      I still really miss the institution sometimes. I liked my work and liked the stability. But being a woman, if I wanted to grow professionally, I had to get out.

    12. Llama Face!*

      Not my current career but I have a strong suspicion that if I were male my family and church would have suggested I go into seminary and become a pastor or theologian instead of encouraging me to go into teaching. Also, I would likely not be in the pink collar job I’m currently working at.

    13. vlookup*

      I think my job would involve a lot less emotional labor, it would be easier to say no to people, and I would get less feedback about how well I manage other people’s feelings.

      I work in operations and there’s a lot of juggling competing requests and priorities. I think that if I was a man, it would be easier to say “sorry, you didn’t give me enough notice and I’m busy; your thing isn’t truly urgent and will have to wait until next week” without it ending up in my performance review that I’m abrasive or whatever.

    14. DaniCalifornia*

      I would probably get a lot of jokes about being an admin? At least that’s what I’m guessing, there seems to be this weird divide that men cannot be assistants, EAs, admins, receptionists, etc. Every time we’ve hired for our front desk position my boss and older teammates say ‘no men’ when I give them a good resume. *EYEROLL*

      I probably wouldn’t get called sweetie by older male clients (ugh!) but still by the old women I work with. We have a new person that calls CLIENTS sweetie on the phone!!!! Drives me nuts.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t have a career, but I guess I wouldn’t have been in all the pink collar jobs. If I had to choose, I’d get rid of this damn dyscalculia. It’s far worse for my employment prospects than being female.

    16. Cog in the Machine*

      Pay wouldn’t be any different, and my coworkers would probably treat me nearly the same. Well, mostly. I wouldn’t have needed to deal with the string of people who felt the need to tell me to smile.
      My clients, though, that’s where the majority of change would be. I work with a lot of men in their 60s and older, and have had numerous occassions where the client listened to me say something before turning to my male coworker and asking him the exact same question. This was even in cases where I had been specifically asked by my coworker to come help because the situation was more in my wheelhouse.

    17. Anon. Scientist*

      Heh. I wouldn’t have had so much trouble getting contractors to do what the spec said. I would be in on my department’s poker games with all the managers, and I’d probably be in management myself. I’d have at least another 5 grand in pay.

    18. Fortitude Jones*

      If I were a man, I’d still be working at the insurance company I used to work for two years ago because they would have promoted me again (maybe a couple times by now) and paid me accordingly. In fact, I’d probably be a technical director by now *sigh*.

      But then again, I also wouldn’t be in a career and job role that fits me like a glove the way I am now, I wouldn’t be working from home full-time (which I value more than anything right now), and I’d be in even worse physical health due to stress, so maybe it’s for the best that I’m a woman.

    19. Vic tower*

      Definitely had some negatives when I was a junior doctor (and still some stereotyping etc) but now I’m a private gynaecologist- it’s a definite advantage to be a woman! I feel like I have one of the few jobs where being male can be a real disadvantage

    20. Curmudgeon in California*

      If I were a man, I would now be a middle to upper manager making at least twice what I do now. I wouldn’t have had to listen to people chastise me for being “aggressive”, “blunt”, or “outspoken” – I would have been rewarded for it. I wouldn’t have people looking down their noses at me for the occasional cuss word – instead I’d be seen as a passionate leader. I wouldn’t have to work at not letting my RBF show – it wouldn’t even be a thing.

      Yes, I’m bitter.

    21. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I’m FAAB nonbinary, so I’ve sort of been on three sides of this: the part where I identified as female, the part where I now identify as nonbinary, and the thought experiment about being MAAB and/or male.

      I bet that if I’d been male or read as male when I was taking advanced computer programming classes—in which there was one ~woman, namely me (female-identified at the time)—I would have had a very different idea of what kind of career options were open to me, and how hard I had to work to make sure I impressed the professor and the other students and didn’t risk triggering the “girls suck at computers” reaction every time I left out a semicolon. Instead I dropped out of college and got a job fixing computers in a shop where there were lots of women. It didn’t pay as well as writing code, not by a long shot, but I didn’t feel like I had a target painted on me.

      On the flip side, I’m pretty sure that if I were a woman I would have had a much harder time in the workplace, because one of the ways my nonbinary gender manifests is that I never absorbed the deferential, self-negating attitude that women are supposed to have in this messed-up culture. I am, for lack of a better word, ballsy. And it comes so naturally that it seems to engender the kind of respect that men get more than the sneering dismissiveness all too often inflicted on assertive women. The things that women so often experience at work—being talked over, their words repeated by someone else, getting underpaid for the same work—don’t happen to me and never have, not even when I was female-identified, and I’m pretty sure it’s because, on some subconscious level, people read me as more male than female. My career has greatly benefited from this. Which is shitty, obviously, but I try to balance it by giving female colleagues extra support and believing them when they talk about their experiences rather than assuming that my experience of being FAAB and read as female is the typical one.

      Would my rich sexist relatives have given me more financial support because I was a first-born son, giving me more career flexibility and the sense of entitlement that opens so many doors? That would be a pretty major change.

      Also, not related to sexism, if I had a testosterone-based endocrine system, I’d probably have had stronger forearms in my 20s and not gotten a raging case of bilateral tendinitis that took 16 years, not a typo, to get as cured as it’s going to be. So even if I’d dropped out of tech and ended up in the combination of architectural drawing classes and typing-intensive customer service job that wrecked my arms, I’d have had un-wrecked arms and would have either stayed in architecture or stayed on VP track at the job. Instead I dropped out a second time and got a $10k worker’s comp settlement that did fuck-all to make up for my next job being a receptionist gig. (I was soooooo bad at being a receptionist. Utterly miserable.) Also I’d probably be taller and ergonomics would be simpler at work and at home, because I’d be living in a physical space designed for people built like me. My whole adult life would be so different without chronic injury and the constant struggle to find chairs, keyboards, etc. that fit my body—I don’t even know where to start on that one.

      Would I have chronic anxiety as bad as it is if it hadn’t been primed by all these years of being absolutely terrified of getting pregnant, or if I weren’t a survivor of sexual assault? Who would I be, physically and psychologically, if I hadn’t had birth control hormones in my system for 25 years? Would antidepressants have worked better for me, or worse? If I were MAAB and nonbinary, I’d probably still be dysphoric, but right now my most intense dysphoria is from being short; if I were taller, how would that affect my sense of my self and in turn affect how I behave at work? If I had bigger hands, would I have stuck with piano lessons and ended up as a concert pianist? If I had stronger arms, would I have kept playing tennis and ended up at Wimbledon? Who even knows? But the physical side of being MAAB doesn’t tend to come up in these thought experiments and I think it should.

    22. TechWorker*

      I don’t *think* I would have progressed any quicker but I might have less imposter syndrome and tbh have already left for a higher paid job :D

      Saying that my company is mostly good in this regard and I (now, after 5 years and some promotions) feel respected. It was tough when I was starting to take on responsibility because a few colleagues junior clearly thought they were at the same level and argued over every little detail – that might not have been gender related but who knows.

      I could also be more casual in my friendships with male colleagues rather than have to worry about not giving off the wrong signals (like when a colleague from another department got me thank you chocolates and took me out to lunch and it happened to be near valentines and they were in a massive heart shaped box I then had to carry around.. I’m 99% sure he was being ‘professional friendly’ rather than ‘inappropriate friendly’ but still..) but actually most of the time this has been fine too. (And maybe men worry in the same way about not giving off signals to women, though idk).

      1. Darren*

        Trust me, being a man doesn’t make you have any less imposter syndrome. I’m good at my job, and have proven it many times doing things that previously weren’t thought to be possible or feasible, but I still constantly have times where I’m wondering why I am where I am in life and earning as much as I do and worried that I’m not as good as I think I am and am just one mistake away from revealing that to everyone.

        And yes I definitely worry about giving off signals to women that I’m hitting on them. I’m at work to be a professional and get work done and I want the office to be a place that everyone feels safe and included in, not one where they think the old white guy is hitting on them making them uncomfortable. So a different kind of worry about the signals but still definitely worried about them.

    23. KAG*

      I would not have been told that because I didn’t have an undergraduate computer science degree, I would have to work in Marketing and prove myself. Nor would the focus have subsequently switched to the man in the room. With no undergrad comp science degree.

      (NB: I had over ten years of work experience and was on the cusp of a master’s degree. A kindergartener would be better suited for a marketing job than this quant. No, I really suck at marketing.)

  60. Background NPC*

    Do job-etiquette norms like “not applying to other positions after accepting an offer” still hold if the job offer is contingent on passing a background check and/or references?

    It’s only been a few year since I graduated college so I’m still trying to figure out the ropes by going through the archives. I’ve come across the usual advice in this site that you should choose to stick with a job offer, accept it, and then courteously let other companies know that you’ve found a job and that you want to withdraw your application. However, I also saw comments within those posts about how this goes out the window for contingent offers because there’s a small chance that the deal will not go through, since it’s not 100% guaranteed that you’ll get the job.

    So I accepted an entry-level offer today that is contingent on the background check but I’m not sure whether it’d be OK for me to still look at other positions and go forward with other interviews that were planned for the next few weeks. I’m 99.9% sure that my background check will be fine, as it has been in the past. But I fear that something might go wrong and that the job offer could be rescinded since it’s not 100% set in stone, especially because I’ve had two job offers rescinded before this… I don’t want to wait and twiddle my thumbs for this background check to go through and then end up with no job and 2 weeks wasted :(

    1. De Minimis*

      I’d say it depends on how extensive the background check and how long you expect it to take. If it’s some kind of federal background investigation that could take months, I would probably keep looking for jobs though I might be more selective about what I’m applying to, and I wouldn’t withdraw from consideration for anything else I had going on.
      But if it’s a simple criminal record check, I’d say the job was pretty much a sure thing and would quit looking, assuming I knew there wouldn’t be any issues.

    2. BRR*

      I’d personally probably stop applying, but there’s no harm in continuing to apply if you want. I’d probably still go on scheduled interviews but would withdraw my candidacy once a start date has been set.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I still applied to jobs and went on interviews until I received notification that my hiring form had been approved (it was a two week process) and a firm start date had been set. Like you, I didn’t want to waste two weeks in the event that they didn’t get executive approval to bring me onboard. I was lucky that I didn’t find anything else I liked better! If I had, that would have been awkward.

    4. Flyleaf*

      It’s reasonable to keep looking for a new job until you accept a firm (no contingencies) job offer. If there are still contingencies, you should feel free to continue your search. Once the contingencies are removed, you can accept and stop searching.

  61. AwkwardTurtle*

    I keep coming up short with phone/video interviews where I’m not getting to the final stage or beyond the first call. It doesn’t help that I have a monotone voice so it sounds like I’m not interested in the job when I actually am. I’m also trying to move from the East coast back home to the West coast so employers may already be wary of me. I don’t know how and what else I can improve upon to be a better candidate for the jobs I’m applying for. For example, one job needed grant making skills, where I don’t have any, but I still got through two interviews. Another employer said my skills and experience were not a match with what their needs were at the moment. I’ve asked these employers for feedback but most of the time it’s either no response or vague, unhelpful responses.

    For reference, I work in the international development sector with an MPH. I’m mostly applying to public health, M&E, or research jobs that may be globally or domestically focused.

    1. Goose Lavel*

      Record yourself answering standard interview questions and wait until the next day to review them. Keep practicing by recording yourself and eventually you’ll become more natural when answering phone screen interviews.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      You may be doing what you can and are just competing with a strong candidate pool.

      One idea, for the monotone aspect (though it may not be an issue), is to smile when speaking on the phone. Apparently people can hear that in your voice?

  62. D.W.*

    I am a first-time mom and I returned to work from 4 months of maternity leave this week. Leaving my daughter at her daycare was awful! My first week has been good, a nice slow adjustment.

    The first day felt like the first day of school. It felt like after the project status updates they should have just let me go home, ha! Yesterday felt like the first real day of work, in that I actually had things to do.

    1. DC Weekend*

      I came back to work in July after four months of maternity leave. It was hard to leave my little guy, but I do love my job which has made the transition easier. One thing I do when I’m bummed about missing out on his day is think about all of the things that are easier to do when not holding a baby–I can drink my coffee before it gets cold, I can eat lunch with two hands, I can carry on a full conversation without interruption, etc.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      Congratulations! It gets easier over time but the adjustment to daycare/working parent life can be rough. Be gentle with yourself and enjoy snuggles once you’re home!

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Oh gosh I read that one! I kept thinking “I wonder what Alison would say.” I think she and Daniel have collaborated in the past, I thought he gave a great answer.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I had a coworker at a previous job that did this! He was totally happy to cover my shifts for a couple days and then the week before my vacation he asked me what I was doing with my time off and I told him I was visiting my boyfriend. He got irritated and then the next day told me something had come up and he couldn’t cover my shifts anymore. Yeah okay.

      He continued that petty attitude towards me for a while and I certainly didn’t help things when I overheard another male coworker asking him to cover his shift and I pipped up and said “He only will cover your shift if you f##k him so you might be out of luck!”

    3. TechWorker*

      Me lolll I was literally scrolling through to check whether anyone else had posted it before I did :D

  63. Pizza Dog*

    We are having a small issue at work that no one is really sure how to handle. When someone is even a few minutes late (I’m talking even 1-2 minutes) my supervisor makes us use 15 minutes of vacation time. We are not allowed to work a few minutes longer at the end of the day, or leave early to make up the difference between how late we were and how much time we used (13 minutes early for being 2 minutes late, which I didn’t think we would be). There’s no punching in, we all have to walk to the supervisor’s office to sign in. And there’s no reason we have to be at our desks at exactly 8 o clock or the work would be affected. This is just my supervisor’s policy, none of the other supervisors in the entire admin department do this, including my supervisor’s boss, and there’s no written policy. If we don’t have any vacation time left, 15 mins of pay is docked, and many people in my department are new-ish (2-3 years) and so haven’t accrued a lot of vacation time (most of us get 7 hours a month, not a full day yet). So a lot of people end up running in across the parking lot and through the halls to not have to use their time. A lot of people who work here outside this department know about this and laugh at my coworkers while they’re running (which I think is kind of embarrassing for us). Anyway, is there a certain way we can push back against this? It just seems really unfair to charge us so much time for being late a couple minutes (if you walk in at 8 and the clock changes to 8:01 while you’re standing in their office, we use 15 minutes of time). No one likes it, but so far have not really pushed back on it, except for one person who is very clearly disliked by our supervisor. I know that my supervisor’s boss does not like this practice because I have talked to them about it, and has told them that people can put their stuff down before going to sign in even if that makes us show up to sign in after 8, but I think that is only being applied to the people in my office, who don’t work in the same room as our supervisor (a few of us work in a separate room because we used to be separate departments).

    Sorry for all the parentheses! Any suggestions would be helpful thank you!

      1. valentine*

        Lawyer.
        But it’s legal.

        if you walk in at 8 and the clock changes to 8:01 while you’re standing in their office, we use 15 minutes of time
        It’s a gross power play. Only one person can possibly sign in at 8:00.

        What happens when he’s out?

        1. Pizza Dog*

          The sign in sheet is in a basket on her door always, so when she’s out we just sign in and no one cares if we walk in a few minutes late. When she is here, her door is open which puts the sign in sheet is in her office which is how she knows exactly when everyone arrives.

        2. Observer*

          Lawyer.
          But it’s legal

          Actually, no it’s not. If she were just docking vacation time, it would be garbage but legal. But docking 15 minutes pay for less than 6 minutes lateness IS absolutely illegal in the US.

    1. Colette*

      I don’t think this is legal. Can you check the laws in your area and then bring them to your supervisor’s boss?

      1. Pizza Dog*

        I have searched for whether it’s legal or not, and I am pretty sure it’s illegal to do this when docking pay but I wasn’t sure if it applied to vacation time as well. I think I will take it up with my supervisor’s boss again.

        1. Colette*

          Oh yeah, vacation is probably legal in the US! But if they docked me 15 minutes PTO when I was late 2, I would take a 13 minute mini-vacation on the spot.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            Yeah, the petty part of me would want to sit down at my desk and start scrolling through Twitter on my phone and say “I’m not on the clock until 8:15.”

    2. Michelle*

      Your supervisor sucks. If his boss has been supportive when you spoke to him about it, maybe a group of you could get together, go to his boss and ask if could intervene on your behalf.

      15 minutes of vacation time for a minute or 2 late?? 15 minutes of docked pay if no vacation time is left? That sounds like a great way to loose employees.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        I can’t seem to get anyone to join me in talking to the grand boss! But I think I will go to her, as a solo mission. And yes a lot of people leave. I managed to get out from under the supervisor and was glad to not have to deal with this anymore only for a department restructuring to put me back under her.

        1. Qwerty*

          – In regards to the one coworker who has spoken up against the policy but is disliked by the supervisor – was this person always disliked or is the friction related to pushing back on the policy? If it is the latter, it is important to include in your conversation with the grandboss how people are afraid to speak up due to retaliation.

          – To the people who laugh as your teammates race through the hallways – do you interact with them at any other points during the day? Can you (and your teammates) talk about this policy with them? If their managers learn about the policy, they can help alert grandboss to the ridiculous reality that has people running through their departments.

          1. Pizza Dog*

            The coworker was here before I was so I am not sure if it is because of pushing back on this, but I think it does play a part. And I think it is probably part of the reason no one wants to speak up. Also many of us started at the same time so we just thought that was how it worked here for everyone so now I think many are just like well, that’s how it’s always been!

            I know that the other supervisor on her level in our department knows about this too but I am not sure if she has said anything to the grand boss. But everyone who replied has convinced me to bring it up with the grand boss one more time, I’m not sure she knows that it’s still happening!

    3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      If you have HR, I’d check with them as I’d bet this goes against any formal policy that may exist for PTO. It sounds like it’s illegal when the pay is docked if I’m understanding. If you are starting work at 8:01 and have no PTO, and then work 7 hours 59 minutes, it’s wage theft to only pay for 7 hours 45 minutes. You could try one of Alison’s scripts about “we don’t want to get into any trouble” but I’d only try that as part of a group. Honestly, I’d probably go to a grandboss or HR if available since it sounds like your boss is unreasonable.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        Thank you, I think I will go to my grand boss again since I know she doesn’t like this, and when she was my direct supervisor she didn’t make us use any time for being a few minutes late. And I will probably check with HR first just to see if there is a formal policy that can help us out.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Have you spoken the to the supervisor’s boss again? They may think they solved the problem and is unaware that it continues.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        Not yet, but I think you are right that they’re not aware this is still happening so I will do that next, thank you!

    5. Construction Safety*

      Well, you could go sit in the car until just before your 15 minute penalty is up.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        Haha that’s what some people do! They just wait it out in their car before coming to sign in if they’re already late.

    6. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      No suggestions, but it could always be worse. At least you’re allowed to be late for free. See “my employer fined me $90 for being late,” Ask A Manager, 11/14/18. An excerpt:

      My company has a ridiculous late fine policy: you will be fined $2 for every minute, starting from 9:01 a.m. So if you come in at 9:05 a.m., that’s $10 you gotta pay up in cash.

      (link)

    7. Observer*

      If your GrandBoss doesn’t like the policy why don’t they stop it? They have the authority to tell your supervisor to cut it out.

      Go above your grandboss and / or perhaps to HR. What your boss is doing is garbage. It also happens to to be illegal since they are docking people’s pay.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        The grandboss did say something about it but I think they were not direct enough, so I will bring it to their attention again. I also am now realizing I don’t think the grandboss realized that pay docking would happen when people were out of time, and now I know it is illegal so I will be sure to bring it up.

    8. Jedi Squirrel*

      Your boss is ridiculous. If she wants you to clock in, then she should install a time clock, rather than infantilizing her workers by making them sign in and out.

      You’re adults. You show up, you do the work, you do it well and completely, and you go home.

      I am at the point in my life where I would tell this boss, loudly and clearly, what I think of her sign-in sheet as I ran it through the shredder in front of the entire office.

      1. Pizza Dog*

        Everyone in all departments here has to sign in on sign in sheets, I’m not sure why! But as far as I can tell from talking with other people, no one else’s boss has the sheets in their office or has this same late policy. I’m sure a lot of my coworkers would love to shred the sheets!

    9. SomeoneHadToSayIt*

      Have you all considered showing up on time?

      The fact that this is still an issue after the policy has been in place for a while might give you your answer as to why it’s needed…Yes, yes, I understand life/commutes/traffic, etc. but would that make anyone lose more than 15 minutes every month or two? If new employees are running down their leave to nothing in 15 minute increments then they need to get out of bed earlier.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Showing up on time when “on time” is judged to the minute means functionally aiming to show up extra early to allow for those life/commutes/traffic delays. So the company is still costing you 15 minutes of your time, every day.

        A good company policy is to understand that employees need to be generally reliable but, in most circumstances, don’t need Coach Boss there with the stopwatch waiting to mark your time when you cross the finish line. The company should be absorbing those minutes, not the worker.

      2. Mellow*

        “Yes, yes, I understand life/commutes/traffic, etc. but would that make anyone lose more than 15 minutes every month or two?”
        —————–

        I’ll venture a guess: life/commutes/traffic, etc.

        Imagine that!

  64. Can't Sit Still*

    I am intensely frustrated with my colleague, Ally. She has a lot of potential and she seems like she could be a great long-term asset to the company. But she refuses to go to business lunches and I have no idea why. (Business lunches are paid for by the company and are considered a paid part of the work day for non-exempt employees.) I’ve tried explaining that it’s just part of the job and you just have to build your day around them but she’s always “too busy” the day of the lunch.

    Yesterday, her boss, Marjorie, came by to confirm that they were going to lunch and Ally told her she was too busy! Marjorie looked like Ally had slapped her, which honestly, is pretty much what she did. The worst part? Ally was complaining earlier that she never gets time with her boss!

    This isn’t the first time Ally has done this. Previously, in another department, her then-boss, Zane, went to great effort to clear her schedule so she could go to lunch with the department, and she didn’t go because, again, “too busy.”

    I’m guessing I need to give up. It’s just so disappointing. Business meals are very important in our industry and she’s never going to get the exposure she needs to move ahead if she never goes to lunch (or dinner – which are paid overtime for non-exempt employees.)

    1. Little Beans*

      Why does she have to go to business lunches? How does it affect your job if she doesn’t go?

      1. valentine*

        Does she still get a break or is that it for the day?

        You can tell her it’s industry standard and that it’ll bite her, but that’s it. Being more concerned than she is doesn’t serve either of you.

      2. Can't Sit Still*

        It’s exasperating to hear her talk about what she wants to do with her career and then watch her sabotage her chances. It doesn’t actually affect my job, so yes, I’m going to drop it.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There are a ton of reasons why Ally doesn’t want to go to lunch that she might not want to share. Maybe she has food allergies or issues. Maybe she gets intensely anxious during one-on-one lunches. Maybe she has a medical issue that means she doesn’t eat in restaurants. Maybe it’s religious.

      So perhaps look at it less as a personal affront and more that it’s Ally’s problem. If business meals are really important, then her manager can sit down with her and try to talk about it in terms of career development, but please try to be less frustrated.

      I’m a pretty straightforward person, so I would ask, “Hey, you never come to lunch, what’s up with that?” but if you go that route, be careful not to be judgmental when you ask.

      1. FirstTimer*

        I was thinking that it sounds like an anxiety thing too. I can force myself to go, but the first time I did I almost threw up on my new CEO at our 1:1 get to know you lunch.

      2. Can't Sit Still*

        Oh, I should have been clear about that – these aren’t 1:1 lunches, these are group lunches. She’s fine going to lunch as long as she does the inviting. Actually, now that I think about some of the things she’s said in the past, she apparently did this at her last job as well. It’s not so much that she doesn’t go, it’s that she says she will, and then backs out at the last minute.

        So, it’s probably anxiety then – my dad did that all the time. He would swear up and down that he was going to go this time, and then something would happen at the last minute, and he wouldn’t go. I will definitely let this go – this is her issue, not mine, and I have a therapist to talk to about daddy issues. LOL!

      3. Auntie Social*

        We had a billing clerk who went to her car and drank at lunch, that was why she “couldn’t possibly”. . .

    3. Quill*

      If you think you can get why she doesn’t want to go out of her in a non-pressurey way, go with that.

      Off the top of my head, reasons people might not want to go include:
      – Any and all food sensitivities/allergies
      – Any psychological issues around food including eating disorder recovery, misophonia, etc
      – Social anxiety
      – The perception (true or not) that she needs to stay later to make up the time.

    4. Zombie Unicorn*

      I happen to enjoy work lunches but I would be pretty annoyed if that was the only way I could get time with my boss.

    5. Mazzy*

      If you’re in sales or account management roles that require face time, can’t you just tell her they really aren’t optional? I see others writing about food allergies or anxiety, but those are side points. The point is, if you take a certain type of job, you can’t act surprised when things like this come up. And if food is an issue then you need to speak up, not act like a shy child

    6. BuildMeUp*

      Have you tried framing the conversation around what it will do for her? That in your industry, it will help her advance and get more time with her boss?

      Other commenters are right that she could have her reasons for not going. But she should understand the trade off she’s making by not going.

    7. Mellow*

      >Business meals are very important in our industry and she’s never going to get the exposure she needs to move ahead if she never goes to lunch

      How is this your problem? Curious.

  65. ummm. what?*

    I’m seeking advice on how to tell my boss that his pet project isn’t feasible. One of his colleagues suggested a project to him that he LOVES and just thinks it’s the greatest thing ever for our company. I have been researching it for almost a year and it’s… just… not going to work. It would require an extraordinary amount of cost up front, with a high likelihood of little to no return for the first few years. He seems to think it will make us a ton of money right away, and while my preliminary research (which I presented to him earlier this year) supported this, which got him really revved up about it. Now that I’ve looked more in-depth, it’s just not going to work the way I originally thought it would.

    With previous bosses, I would just present the data with my conclusions and that would be that. However this boss is much more emotion-driven, and any time I’ve shown data that it might not work, he freaks out about “you need to make this happen!!” and a long lecture about how we are projected to take a loss this year and we need this project to up or revenue. It’s not based in fact because it’s his pet project. I’d love any advice as to how to handle this.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I had an issue where a new IT guy came in and got all the executives amped up about updating our systems to “compete with the big boys.” It involves converting everything over to systems used by powerhouses like Mastercard and Facebook, and we were pretty much just a mom-n-pop operation. I knew no one would listen to me, but I voiced my concerns. They went ahead with their plans. A year later and $40K in the hole, it was time to start testing and nothing worked as promised. People started getting worried. I voiced my concerns again, and this time they listened and shut the project down. No one spoke of it again.
      I’m not one to waste time and money, but I could tell that it was a Goliath and David situation, so I sat back and let it run it’s course.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Could you respond/use an emotion-driven way to communicate the barriers?

      E.g. “I worked really hard to find a solution! I spent so much time and tried all these things. I know how important this revenue would be and I’m stressed about making it work. And it’s…not going to work out. I’m sorry :(”

      And have the data backing this up in your back pocket.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I’ve been there. The boss wanted a daunting multiyear effort in weeks. I did a risk analysis to show where we might expect problems, noting that if we couldn’t delay the deadline (time) or add expert people (resources) then he should be prepared to trim down the goals (scope.) He wasn’t having it. Scope, time, and resources were all completely fixed. We would just have to try harder and make the most optimistic vision of the project come to pass. It didn’t, and not for lack of heroic effort on everyone’s part. As the harbinger of bad news, I was blamed for being the negative Nelly who caused the effort’s unsurprising failure. I still wonder what would have happened if I had shut up, dived in enthusiastically, and come back with a “Golly, gee, who could have seen that coming?” when the perfectly foreseeable happened. Even though it’s awful project management, a lot of managers will punish a critical word up front but welcome plausible excuses after the fact. You might consider that path instead.

  66. robineer*

    Hi all. I’m almost at my third month at my new job (which I love so far). I have two coworkers who I talk to when I have questions about my tasks. One of them has given me the wrong answer each time. I’ve only asked them a few questions so far. Each time they answered me, I checked with my manager as well because I felt that their answer was off.

    How should I approach this going forward? When I get the correct answer from my manager, should I go back to the coworker and let them know?

    1. Zombie Unicorn*

      I don’t think your solution is to tell this person they got it wrong. I think you need to stop asking them!

    2. juliebulie*

      If you have to check their answers with your manager anyway, you might as well just ask your manager in the first place.

      But tell the manager that you’re doing this because you’re concerned that your colleagues’ previous answers didn’t match up with the manager’s. Don’t say they were “wrong,” just “different.”

  67. Budgie Buddy*

    This week I told a coworker her food was stinking up the office…I don’t usually care because I and other coworkers have also brought in some stuff with pretty distinct smells, but in this case it was roasted brussel sprouts that WOULD NOT go away. 24 hours later the office still smelled of brussel sprouts. Then lunch hour came and the smell got stronger again because the coworker was having the same lunch as the day before.

    I just thought, “If it was me I’d want someone to tell me my food is stinking up the office for two straight days.” (I also had a killer sinus headache the second day, which probably made me more affected by the weird smell.) At first the coworker didn’t understand because I approached with a very timid, “Uhhhh I don’t know where exactly it’s coming from but for some reason there is maybe kind of a lingering brussel sprouts smell maybe from a lunch?” And she was just like “Nope no brussel sprouts here” until another coworker backed me up and was like “Yeahhhh we’re all smelling it and it’s definitely that lunch.”

    So I feel kind of bad because no one wants to be told their food stinks but it seriously did not go away and we eventually had to open the office front door to air the place out. I’m still recovering from a second rhinoplasty that basically destroyed my sense of smell, so if I figure if it’s something obvious to me it must be pretty overpowering.

    Not sure if there’s a better way to address “Your food stinks so bad I’m getting too nauseated to work.”

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I think making it a “you thing” instead of a “her thing” might help.

      Just approach her and say “Hey for whatever reason, the smell of Brussels sprouts is just not setting with me well and is making me ill. Would you do me a favor and not heat them up in the break room?” That might work because it could sound like they’re doing it as a favor to you. If your coworker is polite and rational, then they will probably agree.

      I do have a little food warmer in my office (made by Crock Pot) that I think works really, really well and I haven’t had any smells come out of it in the year I’ve used it. It’s got a good seal and I don’t think it gets as hot as a microwave. You could recommend something similar to her.

    2. Mazzy*

      Just be direct! Some people don’t get it. I worked at a place where we all left for dessert and coffee for an hour because someone stunk up the office and was oblivious and we all told them to never do it again. Some people just need to be told

  68. Deloris Van Cartier*

    I need some tips for getting out of a funk at work. I think I just have too many things on my plate but I feel like I’m not really achieving much of anything because I keep jumping from thing to thing. I have some big projects that I need to get on top of but sometimes I just find myself unable to do much of anything useful. Like I have times when I should be able to be productive, but I just can’t focus on anything I actually need to get done. I’ve had some health stuff come up so I know that’s not helping but at some point, I can’t keep putting things off or just shuffling between projects. It’s also messing with my confidence as I just took on this role a couple of months ago and now I’m feeling like I’m not actually prepared for it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Triumphant Fox*

      I have been feeling like this lately! Last week was just a fog. Here is what has helped me:
      – I started doing more in my off hours. I’m someone who really relies on momentum, so if I’m doing a lot, that ball keeps rolling. If things are quiet, it takes me so much energy to get moving, even at work.
      – I picked my favorite things to do at work and just started knocking them out even though they were not a priority and could really wait. It helped me do something productive.
      -I scheduled meetings with other people. These forced me to prepare – even if it was just beforehand – and to get some ideas going on what we could be doing going forward.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        All good tips, thank you! I think the first one is probably key as I’ve been just going home and trying to get rest so I can feel better physically but it now feels like all I do is work which isn’t helping my motivation. I’ve tried the second one but I get like 3/4 done and then I just stop. It’s a bad habit so I think I need to set some deadlines for my self so I can cross some things off my list!

    2. FirstTimer*

      Would keeping a running to-do list help? I have a spreadsheet with different tabs for things that need to be done that day, one for the near future, and one for things that I can back burner for a while. It helps me prioritize and it also allows my boss and I to discuss it so she can give me feedback on where I need to be so I can re-arrange things if need be. I also have a big ‘ole hard copy daily planner that I set up hourly each morning when I get to work so I at least feel like I have my poop in a group. It might be overkill for some, but has really helped me prioritize and get things completed.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        I usually love a to-do list so I probably just need to sit down and re-create mine as it’s just kind of all over the place right now. I also think doing some future planning would be helpful so I can see whats actually a priority for today and what can I wait on till next week. Thank you for the tips!

    3. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      This sounds like mental health stuff to me—not trying to diagnose, but when I get like that it’s because of anxiety or depression. Physical health can definitely affect mental health too. Getting some support from Team You (perhaps including a therapist) might be in order. Take a mental health day and use it to do things that rejuvenate you. That “should” there is doing you no favors; try to be kind to yourself and accept that you’re not at your best right now.

      Also, if your health stuff is affecting your sleep, that can absolutely create this kind of foggy-mindedness. Anything you can do to take care of your physical self—sleep enough, eat enough food that your body likes, drink enough hydrating drinks, move around enough, take your meds as prescribed—will undoubtedly help.

      It’s totally normal for someone to need a workload adjustment after a couple of months at a new job, so (assuming you have a non-jerk boss) go talk to your boss about it. “Now that I’m deeper into the teapot report review, I’m realizing it’s more work than I thought it would be. Can I offload the teacup report review onto someone else, or put it off until January, so I’m able to focus on the teapots?” Or if that sounds too scary to open with, try, “I’m having a bit of trouble balancing my workload. Can you tell me which tasks you’d like me to prioritize? Can you help me work out a plan?”

      Best of luck!

  69. Anax*

    Any advice on managing long-term illness which interferes somewhat with work responsibilities?

    I’ve been working on diagnosis and treatment for nearly five months, and I was really hoping to have things more settled by now – but no, four more doctor’s appointments next week.

    I feel super guilty for not doing as well at work as I want to, because I have a lot of appointments, and my brain is
    often foggy due to symptoms or exhaustion. I don’t want to coast, but it’s really hard to excel right now.

    (Chronic stuff, not life-threatening – hypermobility spectrum disorder (not QUITE Ehlers-Danlos but functionally identical per the geneticist), probable postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. The latter is what most of the appointments next week are for – the cardiologist still wants to do a stress echocardiogram, a 14-day heart monitor, and a carotid ultrasound before prescribing any meds or treatment, and meanwhile the summer heat has me dizzy and exhausted a lot.)

    1. Deloris Van Cartier*

      No great advice as I’m in a similar boat but sending lots of positive thoughts your way as you work through it. It can be a full time job managing a chronic illness and I think it can really mess with how you see yourself, especially in the workplace. As for the brain fog, I try and see what is the biggest issue and then find a workaround. If it’s my memory, I keep a running list of information in my phone or if it’s tiredness, I try and set up my day so I get the most critical things done when I have the most energy. I hope your job is supportive and you may want to look at getting FMLA set up in case you need it.

      1. Anax*

        Thanks. There’s a temporary endpoint in sight – I’m ok whenever the temperature is below about 85F – but god, I’m so stressed. I hope yours also improves.

        My big problem is that I’m a programmer – my job absolutely depends on being able to hold a bunch of information in my head at once, and that’s what’s impaired. If I have simple, dumb tickets to work through, I can do them. Ditto, I can do some professional reading and brush up on my skills. But the development that makes up the bulk of my work feels almost impossible right now; I just can’t hold the whole problem in my head right now. I’ll try outsourcing more of that data to paper – maybe that will help, and I can force myself to diagram it all out.

        My job’s been incredibly supportive, but I’ve only been in my position for six months, so I won’t qualify for FMLA for a while yet – and that’s definitely adding to my stress, because they haven’t seen too much of me at my best to counterbalance this! Intermittent FMLA may be a good solution next year, but hopefully, I’ll have meds to help by then too.

    2. Fikly*

      I don’t have good advice, just wanted to say hi from someone recently diagnosed with hEDS and working on getting a POTS or other dysautonomia diagnosis and got a concussion a month ago on top of it! Oh, and I developed type 1 diabetes this past winter. It’s been a year. And I need cognitive function for my job.

      One thing that has helped me is acknowledging that right now, I need extra sleep and self-care to be able to work, but that once I get on a successfully treatment regimen, I will likely be able to sleep a bit less, etc. So right now, I have to spend more time on taking care of myself in order to do my job well, but it isn’t a permanent situation.

      Also, for summer heat specifically, look into this cool thing called a cooling towel! They’re towels that you wet and then wring out and snap and they magically (ok, through physics/chemistry) get cold and then you put them on your neck and they are AMAZING. Changed my life. They’re not expensive, either.

    3. OyHiOh*

      My sister has POTS, hypermobility, and mast cell activation.

      There are a lot of really good support groups in forums and on FB, that are full of good ideas for how to take care of yourself in the meantime. Treatment combos are a little bit different for everyone so be patient and use as many self helps as you can while finding the things that work for you!

  70. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Did anyone see the Washington Post article about face-blindness? It’s a fascinating piece of journalism!
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/08/21/feature/my-life-with-face-blindness/

    Timely for this forum, after last week’s discussion about keeping track of people’s names. To which I’ll now add my catchphrase: “I’m bad connecting names with faces until I see it written down, so how do you spell that?”
    If I bump into someone in a place I haven’t been before I use “I’m out of context and I can’t find your name!” If it turns out we know each other from work I’ll joke about needing a better index. ;)

    1. anon24*

      I think I may have face blindness to a degree. I have definitely walked away from my spouse in the grocery store and then not been able to find him again and walked around in a growing panic until he grabs me as I literally walk right past him.

      For some reason I can retain people’s names and faces much better if I know the car they drive. No idea why, but I worked in the automotive industry for awhile as a teenager and young adult so I think spending so much time around cars made it click in my brain. I’m eternally grateful to the co-worker at my one job who, after hearing that weird quirk and realizing that while I’d been working at that job for 3 months I only had retained about 4 people’s names and faces, stood with me and went through the entire department, that’s Owen, he drives a Ford Focus, that’s Kate, she drives a Honda CR-V, etc. After that day I remembered everyone’s name and actually started making friends with my co-workers instead of feeling completely isolated.

      I just tell people now, hey I’m really bad with faces and names so if I ask you 5 times what your name is please don’t be offended, it’s not personal. No one has gotten upset yet.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one. My husband knows that he can’t change his beard/facial hair unless I’m at home while he does it. I need to see the before, the process, and after or else I wouldn’t recognize him when I got home!

        1. anon24*

          I have to make sure I know what he’s wearing. If I forget which tshirt or hoodie he has on I’m in trouble. Interestingly enough all the jobs I’ve had required uniforms so I’d think I’d have a harder time telling my co-workers apart since they’re all wearing the same shirt, but I do ok once I can use my little tricks.

    2. Fikly*

      I have prosopagnosia! I can’t even recognize my own face in a mirror.

      I’ve gotten more comfortable explaining it, but it can still be awkward. I work remotely, too, so I am not exposed to my coworkers faces on a daily basis. Last month at our company’s retreat (around 90 employees) I talked to many people on multiple occasions and just had no idea who any of them are. Sometimes I explain or ask for a name, other times I just talk and don’t worry about who they are.

    3. Mimmy*

      I sometimes wonder if I have a bit of face-blindness. I am visually impaired but I don’t think it’s to a degree where facial recognition is affected. Or maybe it is?

      Anyway, what makes me wonder is because one day at work, I get paged to the front desk. I see someone standing there…hmm…he looks familiar….oh, it’s my husband! (He’d locked himself out of the house and needed my house key.)

    4. Earthwalker*

      I loved the author’s description of greeting people warmly and hoping they’d drop a hint about their identity. I’ve done that so often! “Wow, been a long time, hasn’t it?” I’ll say, fishing for them to say, “Yes, since ” And sometimes they look at me funny and say, “What?? We talked just this morning!” I hate chairing meetings where a dozen total strangers walk in and I know they’re the same people who have met with me every week for months and who naturally expect me to greet them by name. Let’s see: Rita has her favorite office sweater, and John has a nasal tone, Bill is the gray haired one, that woman I don’t recognize just called that other woman “Mary” so she must be Cheryl because they’re friends, and the only other man invited is Jack so by process of elimination that kinda non-descript guy must be him… It’s nice to know I’m not alone in this!

    5. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I hadn’t seen that particular piece, but I’ve known for many many years that I’m faceblind. My mother is too. I do all right recognizing most people once I’ve known them a while, but out of context is hard (yep, I’ve walked past my own partner on the street because I didn’t expect him to be there) and hair/glasses/body shape changes are hard because I rely on them so much to make up my facial recognition deficit. My brother lost a lot of weight several years ago and I had to learn how to recognize him all over again.

      There are occasional faces that are memorable and vivid to me. Looking at them among other people is like seeing part of an image in sharp focus and bright color when everything else is blurry and dim. I still can’t visualize them when I’m not looking at them, but I recognize them much more easily. I gravitate strongly toward those people because it’s such a relief. I’ve joked that my romantic type is people whose faces I can see; it’s not really a joke.

      The WaPo author’s mention of middle school was interesting, because I didn’t have friends in middle school but that isn’t why. One time a woman walking past me on the street whipped off her sunglasses and exclaimed my childhood nickname, and it took me a moment but then I realized she was someone I’d been friends with in my very early childhood. The only person whose face I can see perfectly in my mind is the boy I had a crush on in preschool, when I was four. When I went to my 20th high school reunion, I could very easily recognize the people I went to elementary school with; they all looked like themselves, and it didn’t matter that we’d met when we were five and were now 38. But there were other people there who I’d only shared a high school with, and some of them I’m pretty sure I never met at all, except probably I did and just forgot. So I think at some point in late childhood my face memory got… full.

      My specific issue, as far as I can tell, is that every time I see a face it’s different and I can’t extrapolate a single general concept of a person’s face from all those individual encounters. Every time I look someone in the face, my brain is flooded with a HUGE amount of information, like everyone else calls up the cached PNG of the person’s basic face outline and I download the 85 MB TIFF that shows every pore right before it crashes Photoshop. It’s just too much to hold in memory. I’m also somewhere on the spectrum and have the same issue with eye contact being so full of data that it’s overwhelming. However! I can remember and visualize photographs because I can see them as works of art, and I use a different part of my brain for that! So I can’t remember my mother’s face from having seen it countless times over the past 41 years, but I love thinking about photographs of her. I have my photo attached to my work Outlook account, which no one else does, because I wish everyone else did and I could get to know their faces a bit by seeing their photos over and over and over again—that’s so much easier than seeing living faces over and over and over again.

      I also have a much easier time retaining summarized information about someone’s voice and mannerisms. I can hear my coworker Clive’s voice in my ear right now, down to the nuances of his accent, but I couldn’t draw his face other than a pair of glasses and some grey hair. We’ve worked together for 12 years. Fortunately his walk is distinctive and there aren’t a lot of people of his ethnicity in our office, so he’s pretty easy to spot. All the young light-skinned women with long straight dark hair and lilting voices are much more of a challenge.

      I have the “people of your race all look so much alike!” thing much more with white people than with people of color. (I’m white.) I think it’s because WASP culture mandates a significant degree of emotional repression, which means fewer body language cues for me to recognize someone by. My favorite example of this is the movie poster for The Big Short. I’m told it pictures four different actors, but to me they look like one white guy in different wigs because they all have very similar emotionally constipated facial expressions.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        I just went to look up that poster for The Big Short. I know all 4 of those actor names, and I would have said I could pick them out of a photo lineup… but none of the men pictured look like any of the names! (To my kinda face-blind brain.) They look least like Brad Pitt, so by default he must be the bearded one.

        My wife congratulates me whenever we’re watching something and I recognize an actor from another show in the new context. Rarely do I know their name, though… just the character’s.

  71. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    Has anyone ever transitioned from social services to human resources? What is the day to day like? How did you convince employers to see your value?

  72. Tea Fish*

    I’d like a reality check on just how annoyed I should/shouldn’t be.

    Our small company (~40 employees) has a new HR director who lately has been getting into everyone’s business about their job roles, grilling them on what they do and telling them how they do should do it. The problem is that she… doesn’t seem to have any understanding of what’s involved in our roles, even after we tell her (at her request). Imagine an HR person working in a small clinic trying to dictate how long it should take for a nurse to draw blood or telling the receptionist what information to gather for a new patient intake. She’s also been making some unfounded assumptions about people’s roles and experiences– for example, telling one nurse that another nurse has no experience with cancer patients (untrue). It’s really unclear where she’s getting these ideas from, other than that she’s very wrong.

    We’re in a professional setting where all of us have been trained on our procedures and follow up with the managing professional on whether any changes should be made (for example, asking the doctor if there’s a change to patient care, asking the accountant about a new tax law, asking an attorney about filing a petition). We recently had a round of layoffs to remove the dead weight, and I feel like most of my coworkers now are proactive, independent, and flexible team members who know what they need to do and get it done. We work closely together, but our managers tend to be hands off as a result. But right now, it feels like our HR director is overreaching and trying to micromanage the staff, but with no real understanding of what our jobs actually entail and the fact that we do have real managers who know what we’re actually doing.

    I haven’t worked in another role with an HR person before, so… is this normal? Do I have reason to be annoyed, or should I just put up with it and count it as ‘enh, just part of working in a company larger than 4 people’ (where I was before.)

    1. Not Me*

      I don’t think that’s normal at all. If it was just the questions about your roles I’d say yes, it is normal for someone new to the company in that role to want to learn about the positions, duties, etc. The rest of it is odd though and I’d be annoyed too if I were in your shoes.

    2. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I have had unpleasant HR encounters, but never anything quite like that! Most HR people I know are too busy dealing with things like payroll, PIPs, health benefits, recruiting, etc. to overstep like that. Usually it would be the leadership defining roles…

    3. OtterB*

      Understanding the roles seems to be well within the purview of HR, since they are often responsible for keeping job descriptions. But telling you how to do your job seems like overreach. Who does this person report to? Can you check with them, or with your own boss, about what the HR person is supposed to be doing?

  73. Seeking Second Childhood*

    This one’s for Sharkie — Last week you asked about office traditions when someone leaves. Coincidentally I was too swamped last week to respond because we’ve lost our group’s manager-but-not-given-the-title-or-pay.
    In my little corner of heaven (or hellmouth), the unintentional excitement was IT disconnecting her email account at 12:01am on her last day instead of 11:59pm. So she didn’t get to send her goodbye emails.
    The intended recognition was her boss calling a “follow up meeting about transition of responsibilities” — for which she spent a couple of hours prepping only to find out it was a cover for serving a cake. (Which she doesn’t eat.)

    1. Sharkie*

      Oh Man, that is horrible! I and the account ended up ordering pizza and grabbing a card to sign (our boss who said no card was out). The employee who was leaving said thanks but shove it. It was fun.

  74. Data Peon*

    After wasting three years in healthcare, I decided to try out this entry-level position in the billing department of a private medical company as a data entry clerk! I like numbers and am good at staying focused on paperwork and documents, so I’m hoping I can still use my relative youth on a new path and try to make some semblance of a career work out.

    However, could someone help me understand what kind of careers would be viable after spending 1-2 years as a data entry clerk? Is there any possibility that I could move up into analysis or high-level roles or would I need to go back for a business/finance degree? I’m not sure whether I’ve made a bad mistake taking this job and my biggest fear is that I’ll be stuck in a dead-end job… I know that I have the work-ethics and tenacity to excel but I would appreciate what I should aim for or look forward to in the future, I just don’t really know what!

    1. Miss Fisher*

      Data Entry, you can find all kinds of them in the financial world. typical data entry would be inputting applications, creating loan documents etc. I think you could. I started as a temp in the financial world and worked my way up to a BA role with no extra school. A friend started as a file clerk at a company and is now a BA in charge of operating systems etc. And to add, some financial institutions will pay for school or reimburse you if that is what you want to do.

      1. Data Peon*

        Thanks for your reply! Would you recommend learning certain things or skills as a data entry person, in order to later be qualified for those types of roles? I’m glad to hear that this type of position isn’t a dead-end for me.

    2. lemon*

      Possibly something related to data analytics, like business intelligence analyst? That might require some additional schooling and/or online classes and side projects, but might be good since you said you enjoy numbers and are detail-oriented/focused.

    3. Darren*

      Mostly it is going to depend where you want to end up but there are a number of jobs in the finance field that come off of data entry. Typically the advancement paths are:

      * Data Analysis -> Data Scientist: SQL, Python, R/Matlab can all be valuable here and it’s all about using the data more effectively and getting more out of it.
      * Business Analyst -> Project Management: Typically this involves some software design/development skills but far less than a software developer. Basically you act as the interface between the business and software developers as to the requirements for the business to make sure the software you build solves your needs.
      * Just plain management -> C-suite: Larger companies with large data entry teams need managers for them, management there can chain up into the rest of the department (typically the finance department but could be the operations) and from there to the CFO/COO positions, etc.
      * Accountancy: This one does require extra schooling but yeah you could go from data entry for finance into accountancy and moving up from there.

      There are a number of other roles as well, all require developing other skills as you go, but most companies will provide you on the job training for most of what you need (as you’ll add more value to the business).

  75. Madame Tussaud*

    To those of you who regularly conduct employment interviews, particularly behavioral interviews – what are you favorite questions to ask, and what are you looking for when you ask that question? I’ve been using the same questions for a few years now, and am looking to widen my repertoire a bit!

    1. Semaj*

      One of my favorites is – “What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made at work, and what did you learn from it/how did you handle it?”

      What I’m looking for is accountability – you’d be surprised how many people describe a mistake that someone else made instead of owning up to it. Then, an improvement either in procedures/systems to avoid it happening again, some sort of thoughtful reflection. Candidates who bristle at this question send up some major red flags.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I like this one because I have a good answer.

        My least favorite is “How did you handle a conflict with a colleague?” Um, I didn’t; he yelled at me, I yelled back, and then we made up in the conference room. It sounds like we kissed no matter how I tell it, LOL.*

        *we did not kiss

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        This is a good one. At my level in my field if you haven’t made (and fixed) any big mistakes you haven’t done anything. What matters is how well you fixed it and what you learned.

    2. Lisa B*

      Tell me about a professional skill that you’ve worked on improving in the past, or are currently working to improve. I’m looking for candidates who honestly acknowledge a weaker area and how serious they’ve been at making improvements.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I wouldn’t take such a broad approach! You want interview questions that are tailored to the role you are hiring for. Spend some time reflecting on the must-have skills, traits, and experiences for the role, and then design your questions around that. So if you need someone who’s able to deal diplomatically with volatile clients, for example, you’d ask about times they had to do that or things similar to that, and so forth. But avoid generic lists of interview questions — tailor to what you need for this particular job.

      1. Madame Tussaud*

        Point taken…I do develop questions that address the KSAs needed for each position, but I also like to ask questions that will tell me more about their general approach to work, which the two suggestions listed above do a great job of. Thanks all!

    4. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “This job gives you a certain amount of freedom to advocate for things you feel strongly about. What would you advocate for?” I’m looking for some sense of who the person is and where their priorities are, and whether those align with ours. For example, if they want to make sure our alpaca examiners are trained on examining Caribbean alpacas even though we don’t see them very often, and we happened to be planning outreach to Caribbean alpaca farms, that would be a great sign of being in sync.

      “Here are some moral judgment situations you might encounter. How would you deal with them?” Here I’m looking for sound moral judgment at the gut check level, though a response like “I’d really need to see the employee manual to know how that’s meant to be handled” is fine.

    5. Darren*

      Typically I’m going to be trying to access why they are going to be able to succeed at my business.

      Really that comes down to ability to learn the business, and leverage that knowledge to make the right calls on what we need to focus on.

      So the questions are about times when they’ve:
      – Demonstrated initiative
      – Handled difficult stakeholders
      – Had unclear business requirements
      – Made the wrong call (and what they did about it)

      I don’t like most of the generic questions, they are too generic and don’t really guarantee you get anything of substance. And to be clear while it’s only four questions those questions involve quite a lot of probing, I want details, I want to see if they understand where they might not have handled these situations well, and I want to hear how things would have been different if the situation were slightly different (say if that difficult stakeholder had been their friend, or their manager).

      I’ve gotten a lot of answers from these that you wouldn’t expect from the initial four questions to be information that I’m looking for (for example I’m also looking to see they can work collaboratively, but when asking about initiative I can probe on that area as well to see whether they handled it collaboratively, or they went “Damn the torpedos” and bulled their way through to get their solution).

  76. Triumphant Fox*

    I’m struggling with reviewing application materials for applicants to a position in my department. HR is not great at hiring or getting us very good people to review, so we’ve just been going through LinkedIn on a trial basis. I feel like I’ve been fairly generous in eliminating resumes, but now I’m wondering about eliminating people based on cover letter, resume and portfolio. So far no one has truly customized their cover letter. For some, that’s OK – they worked as a teapot writer before, so the cover letter still works, but isn’t great. For others, they were llama writers and didn’t do any work explaining how that would translate to teapots or why they’d be a good fit.

    I guess I feel like I’m eliminating too many people based on their cover letters, but it’s a writing position, so I don’t want to discount the lack of effort either. Am I asking too much that the cover letters be more tailored? This isn’t a very high level position and I also understand that people are applying to a lot of places.

    1. Lisa B*

      I struggle with this also. I try to be a *little* lenient on the cover letters, but not much. If it’s a form that could have gone to absolutely any employer, I tend to pass unless their resume looks OUTSTANDING. If I can see they point in a modicum of effort, that helps quite a bit. My positions have writing as a key component of the job, so I understand you wanting to be more firm about if it writing IS the job.

    2. juliebulie*

      Writing is my area too, and this is how I see it: If I think their cover letter doesn’t reflect any special effort, I’ll probably feel the same way about the work they do.

      For a writing position, the cover letter often tells you more than the resume does.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. The last two writing positions I’ve gotten (including my current one) was largely based on my cover letter – both of my grandbosses have told me this. My current grandboss even said that after he read my cover letter (and wanted to hire me after the first couple of lines), he told the HR recruiter to not send any more resumes to them from people with weak or non-existent cover letters. If writers can’t even bother writing something decent for a writing job, they don’t want it bad enough.

    3. Darren*

      I recommend checking assumptions at the door, assumptions will burn you, and it’s not like it’s expensive to test it. In your case you don’t know if cover letters matter but you think they do, so go with that build the pool from your people with the best resumes and cover letters.

      Then sprinkle in random people with equally good resumes, but no or poor cover letters. If the random people come out better than your supposedly best people turns out cover letters don’t mean anything after all. If it’s one of those with the superior cover letter that impresses the most turns out they do matter (at least for your business).

  77. L Dub*

    Left dysfunctional toxic job for a new role. I’m only at the end of week 2 in new role, and I think there’s a pretty big personality mis-match with my new manager and myself. New manager told me behind closed doors about how she’s a republican who was anti-Hillary, and I’m about as liberal as they come. I mostly just smiled and nodded. New manager also seems to be pretty nit picky bordering on micromanager, and I’m definitely not. I have about 15 years of experience in my role and I’m a high performer. I’m also in leadership and there’s already signs of me being under-utilized.

    I point blank ask about people’s management styles in interviews, and my new manager also had just started with the company while I was being hired, so there were a lot of folks interviewing me with her in the room. Apparently I didn’t get a good enough read on her and/or on the situation.

    I don’t know. I’m definitely feeling trepidatious at this point and I’m not totally sure what I should do. I know it’s only the end of week 2, but this stuff feels like red flags to me.

    1. M*

      Then maybe start looking for something new and just keep this job off your resume. If people ask look at advice on here on how to word it or if you have been working for 15 years straight taking time off is fine as well. A friend of mine took a year off to travel and found a job and explained they took time off and it was fine. I’m sure this website had the right advice if you search on how to handle it.

      I have been where you are (although in my industry at the time — I changed careers— it was normal to move around a lot) and started looking after starting a new role because my boss, the head of the organization in country, was not only incompetent, but harassing women. So yeah, you do you.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      The politics thing might be workable if it just never comes up again (though about to enter an election year…).

      Underutilized and reporting to a micromanager? That might not work out if it never changes (or worsens). But it could just be growing pains – you’re both new, maybe she just needs more time to figure out the right balance of work and autonomy for you. And if your last job was toxic, that might have made you sensitive to more signs of a bad environment. I think it depends on where your pain point is. Is it just annoying or is it getting painful to deal with her? Does she seem harmless and not yet settled so things are kind of all over the place, or does this seem like How She Is, focused on keeping you small and micromanaged?

      Ultimately, if you still have good leads from your recent job search – other opportunities that sound good – it would be worth checking them out just in case.

      1. L Dub*

        You’re totally right about me being overly sensitive to signs of a bad environment. I have definitely pushed back on a couple of things, but I don’t think she’s interested in my input, which is concerning even though she is still settling in as well. Then again, she seems a little stressed out by some pretty standard stuff.

        You’re probably right about doing a little shopping around to see if there’s something that’s a better fit. I don’t think I can manage a team if I’m not allowed to actually manage or run my team.

        Thanks!

  78. General Organa*

    I work for an approximately 70 person nonprofit on a team of 12, 8 of whom are in my office (the main one) and 4 of whom are in satellite offices. I’ve been here about a year but before this was at a gigantic corporate office, so there have been a lot of cultural adjustments. I mostly like my manager, but there’s something that’s been bothering me that I’m wondering if people here have experienced. He’s personally closer to a couple of people in the department than others–a senior person who’s been here for a few years and a junior person who’s newer than I am. He’ll do things like have them and their +1’s over to his house for dinner without inviting the rest of us and then encourage them not to tell the rest of us about it (I know because I’m friends with the junior person). I understand that people naturally like some people more than others but nevertheless it’s starting to get to me–even if my manager is able to compartmentalize his friendships from his supervisory work (and I’m not sure that he is), this type of thing creates optics problems, morale issues, and tension between the staff. Is there anything I can do about it?

    1. M*

      I am head of a department at a large (“dream job”) organization and my team is expanding. We have put up job postings and I have received a couple emails from some applicants. Nowhere in the description does it give my information, but with a search people know who I am because of the announcement of my hiring for this role.

      This is a place where many people want to work and we received a lot of responses already. With a little more digging people can figure out my email based on finding others email online. My email is a bit different because of my role, so it was a bit alarming that I have so many of these types of inquiries to my work account. It is possible someone got my email from my business card as I have spoken at and been to conferences.

      I get where they are coming from, but I must say I find it off-putting. Some tell me how they are great for the role, while others are borderline inappropriate. I would rather them go through the process and tell me about their strengths and ask me their questions during the interviews.

      It is rare but I am looking at ALL the applications, mainly because I don’t trust HR as they usually push out gems in the first round. I don’t want to be rude and not reply to these inquiries, but I also do not want to engage with them at this stage. The emails range from people who are already screened out to those I would be thrilled to have on the team. I have debated replying to those I am interested in, but I would rather go through the process and see where it goes. I am trying to ignore them, but I do not want to seem rude. My company says I can reply or not reply as I see fit since I am senior leadership. Has anyone else dealt with this? I have hired for a long time and never had this issue.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…this is tricky, since it’s your manager. I know this has come up before in letters to AAM. And you are correct this is inappropriate and a terrible practice on your manager’s part.

      Could you quantify/document how this affects you or the team (i.e. signs of favoritism in terms of assignments, opportunities for professional development, promotions, salary, during performance reviews, etc.)? I think that would be necessary as a first step.

      I don’t know that this is something to talk directly to the manager about, but rather is something that needs to go to the GrandBoss; it seems unlikely there would be a situation where anyone, no matter how reasonable, who would be okay with a direct report telling them their social life is inappropriate.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        A large part of why I left my last job was because my manager had inappropriately close friendships with my teammates to the point that she gave the best assignments to them and left me sitting around twiddling my thumbs with unchallenging, simple tasks. These kinds of people think they can be buddy-buddy with direct reports and not have it to affect their judgment – they’re wrong.

        I’d be wary of this situation.

  79. Free Meerkats*

    We had an absolute panic in the office today; well, at least from the smallest member of the staff.

    We ran out of gooshy food for the office cat! He’s still pacing around the office letting us know his discomfort with this situation. Kibble. Just. Isn’t. Enough!

    Since I’ll be coming in tomorrow, the middle of my 14 days straight stint for our project, I’ll bring him gooshy food tomorrow, if he doesn’t waste away by then.

        1. Auntie Social*

          “Haven’t eaten in an hour. . . must struggle to hold head up. No gooshy food. . . .”

    1. FirstTimer*

      This is unacceptable and needs to be taken to HR at the very least, possibly even the CEO. Also, I wish we could have an office cat but we just get a useless EA who spends more time on Grindr and Facebook than actually doing anything.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      What an unacceptable situation! I’m so glad you can switch over from your current project to bringing in food for the most important member of the office.

      Also, I think we need visual documentation of this coworker.

    3. Liane*

      Aw, that’s cute. Just what I needed to read today.
      (It could be worse, you could have a Labrador guilt-tripping you.)

  80. ProfessionalGal*

    Okay I could use y’alls opinion. I’m being asked to complete a biographical form for a professional organization since I’m an officer. It’s going to be posted on the website. It asks for my birthday. I included month and day but not year. I got a response saying they need the year and no one has ever refused this information. For some reason I have this visceral reaction that I don’t want to provide it but I’m having trouble articulating why. For reference I’m a woman in my 30’s.
    Am I just being overly stubborn?

    1. Not That Anonymous*

      I work in information security, so my first thought is that publicly posting someone’s PII like that could be detrimental to their security/privacy. Are they also going to post your mother’s maiden name and the school you went to as a kid, just to make it easier for people to hack into your bank account? Lol.

    2. Lisa B*

      Try a cheerful “I don’t routinely publicize my age, so just the month and date for me. Thanks!”

      1. ProfessionalGal*

        Thanks for some good wording! I guess even if I’m being stubborn, it’s what I prefer so that’s what they should use.

        1. valentine*

          You could mention it’s especially going to be detrimental to people with common names who have their birth year in their email address. No one needs to know your birthday and anyone who cares is probably up to no good.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      When I first started reviewing corporate reports, I was surprised to see board members’ ages included in their bios, but now I understand it’s standard in many industries. I have never seen full birthdates published.

    4. Joielle*

      You’re not being overly stubborn! I’d just say something like “I’m pretty particular about not having personal info online, so let’s just stick with the month and day.”

      Honestly, even birth month and day seems strange to me for a professional organization bio! What, is someone gonna send you a birthday card? I feel like those bios usually have peoples’ college graduation dates, which gives you a good enough idea of their age (which, why would anyone need to know that, but whatever).

    5. nonegiven*

      I made my birth date private on Facebook. I used to have it show, but not the year. DOB is PII, so I started being uncomfortable sharing it when medical people started using it to confirm identity.

  81. Jessi*

    So I’ve recently moved back to the UK and I’ve been searching for a job as a llama cuddler. Unfortunately, I’ve been turned down for two llama cuddler jobs as one employer wants to take their cuddler to another location at the drop of a hat and another employer deciding they might want an onsite cuddler (even though they were searching for NOT onsite).

    Today I ended up going to an interview to be a llama cuddler recruiter. Not sure how I feel as it would be a massive paycut. Has anyway switched from a very practical job to recruitment and enjoyed it?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I went into recruiting after working in retail, not the same as a very practical job, but I did not enjoy recruiting for a single second. I know that YMMV and some people really flourish and can do the job excellently, but I hated my experience. There was a lot of selling involved (i.e. selling the job/company) and that’s just not something I’m good at. I think I placed maybe two people in my nine months working in the industry and those were easy jobs to place. You need to be a specific type of person to succeed in recruiting and I wasn’t it. I’d be especially hesitant to suggest you try it because you say that you’re more used to a practical job. With the massive pay cut, I doubt the experience would be worth it, but maybe someone else has some positives to talk about.

      (Also, I really wish the job was actually cuddling llamas because that sounds amazing.)

  82. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

    Heeellllp, I am in agony waiting to hear back about a job I interviewed for last Friday. I really want it and I know it will be painful to get rejected and waiting is making my stomach hurt!

    I had a job very similar to this role at a company where I was laid off last year. That was one of the hardest things I have ever gone through, and my new job, while low-key and often fun, just doesn’t challenge me the way that previous one did, and I miss that experience.

    Some other people from this same company, also laid off when I was, recently joined this new place and one of them recommended me for this role. I interviewed with the CMO who had a complete poker face and I could not tell at ALL whether she thought my answers to her questions were brilliant, boring or just dumb. I did the email thank yous that day….and now I wait and wait.

    I am very bad at waiting. How do I get through this??? It’s been such an emotional roller coaster for me. I feel sometimes like I am in some sort of employment purgatory.

  83. AvonLady Barksdale*

    This is kind of in line with yesterday’s authority letter– something I’ve been pondering. Yesterday, I had to correct my boss. We were getting our signals crossed and he was kind of frustrated, I gathered, because he thought an account didn’t include one thing, and he couldn’t understand why I was suggesting a change. I knew that the account did include that thing. So I pointed it out to him, which I think is fine and appropriate.

    However, the way I did it reallllly bothers me. I used all of this super gentle language, like, “OK, I’ll do that. But I’m a bit confused because you said we didn’t do X but we actually did it last April, and that was the reason for my original question. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong information?”

    I wasn’t. I was looking at absolutely the correct information. I was right about something, he was wrong, and his “wrong” had an impact on how we were going to proceed. It wasn’t the biggest mistake in the world, for sure. So why am I bothered? Because my own language felt so damn conciliatory and ego-stroking, designed to call him out without actually calling him out. I should have just said, “Heads-up, I think you’re reading the wrong thing. We actually did X in April.”

    Basically… is there a time when being conciliatory and stepping softly with your boss is the wrong approach? Should I have been more “assertive” (and not even that assertive)? I guess it depends on the boss, and while he’s a nice enough guy, he thinks he’s always right and doesn’t always listen to me when I have a different perspective or opinion.

    1. MissBliss*

      Since it sounds like you were both looking at separate things, you could handed him that you were looking at (the correct document) and said “Can you look at this? This is what I’ve been working off, the document from last year. Are we looking at different things?”

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’m remote! So I can’t, unfortunately. I wish I had been able to walk into his office and ask him directly.

        1. valentine*

          I think you handled him perfectly. As much as I wasn’t raised to be phony and I despite extra words and flowery nonsense, it’s fine if it gets me what I want, when the alternative is feeling like clawing my face off and staying at square one. It’s why I resist troubleshooting and say, “Please advise.”

        2. MissBliss*

          I think you might be able to do an adapted version of that, if you’re both at the computer while you’re on the phone. A quick “have I shown you the document I’m working off of from last year? Let me send it to you, to make sure we’re looking at the same thing.” Or even “It sounds like maybe we’ve been looking at different things– I’m sending over what I’ve been working off of. It was saved in the folder for last year’s project [or whatever] and since we were keeping the specs the same I thought this would work.”

    2. BigLo*

      This might be less relevant given your last sentence about your boss, but I think it’s always helpful to remember that in their role they may not be as deep into the minutia of what you’re working on as you are when you need to correct someone higher up than you. I probably would’ve said “Oh I’ve been working off of our work from April where we did that, has something changed since then?” but I think your wording was fine too and unfortunately sometimes you just have to pretend that you might be wrong.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I see communication as a means to an end, that changes radically based on context. The “right” way is whatever way that gets the job done.

      You got heard. That’s all that really matters.

      In a different situation, or with a different person, or on a different day, you’ll need to use a different style to get heard. So you will.

      I don’t see the “soft” style as the problem, from a gender point of view. The gender issue I see is that you are discounting your own successful outcome in this situation because you vaguely feel that you didn’t earn it the “right” way. I can’t remember ever seeing a man I know do that. They take the win (however small), and use it as evidence that they are successful at their goals.

      Women do it all the damn time. They accomplish a goal (however large or small), but feel like it didn’t really “count” because….nobody really knows why.

      There is no “right” way. Take the win.

      1. Darren*

        I have to agree. I’m a man and I don’t care whether I have to gently guide, bluntly state someone is an idiot, pretend I’m wrong, or even actually argue against my own desires as long as I get what I want out of a meeting.

        I once had a discussion with a high-level person who had to feel ownership of the solution otherwise he’d torpedo it and go with something he owned. I knew what I wanted the solution to be and I went into the meeting deliberately taking into account the requirement setting up a stupid idea (that he promptly shot down) but one that was close enough to what I wanted that he was guided toward the solution I wanted. I nodded a lot when he selected that reinforced why I thought it was so much better than my idea and we went with that.

        At no point before, during or after that conversation did I worry about whether I was going about it the “right” way. I had an aim and I achieved it, you can bet I put that in the win column, because of how difficult it was I put it down as three wins. I was pretty pleased with myself after that meeting.

  84. sunshyne84*

    I was just asked for a high school transcript (Really?). At least the school has made it easy to order online now. Last time I needed one you had to go to the school and I worked during their office hours, but fortunately a friend was working there at the time. smh Still silly I have to pay for them to mail it down the street to me, but hey convenience. lol

    1. Can't Sit Still*

      I have been asked for a high school transcript for every job since 2007. My high school used the transcript as a permanent record and not just grades – discipline, contact with parents, visits to the nurse, etc, so it’s not something I’m willing to release to employers. (Can you imagine the interview? Ah, yes, I see that on April 14, 1989, you went to the nurse for ibuprofen and a tampon. LOL, no.) Fortunately, they’ve all been willing to accept a copy of my diploma in lieu of a transcript.

    2. Curmudgeon in California*

      Ewww. High school? I get skeeved out if they want a college transcript! IMO that’s a great way to cover up age discrimination.

  85. Lisa B*

    Does anyone have experience using Google Voice? I’ve seen it mentioned a few times on this site and I’m intrigued. I moved to a new area and wanted to keep my old cell phone number that I’ve had for years. But when I make work calls in the new area, most people never pick up because they don’t recognize the area code. It seems like Google Voice will let me have a second number ring to my existing cell? Does it clearly identify it’s coming from the Google Voice number? Is voice mail easy to use? Can I have it go directly to voice mail after a certain time? (My employer does give me a cell phone allowance, and I’m not at all interested in getting a second phone.)

    1. Mid*

      In order
      1. Yes I do, though I haven’t used it in a while, because it stopped working for what I used it for (I volunteer for a hotline and GV used to show up as the hotline name instead of the caller’s number, but now the caller’s number shows up regardless.)
      2. Yes it does
      3. Not usually, but it can depend on the phone, carrier, etc.
      4. I can’t speak to that
      5. Not that I’ve seen, but I haven’t done a deep dive into the features. It might depend on your cell phone as well.

      Would it be possible to use your cell phone allowance to get a second line/number through your cell carrier?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It seems like Google Voice will let me have a second number ring to my existing cell?

      Yes. You would pick a Google Voice number with a local area code, and when people call that, you can set it up so it rings your actual cell.

      Does it clearly identify it’s coming from the Google Voice number?

      You can use the Google Voice app to make calls, so when people see your caller ID, they’ll see the GV number and not your actual cell number.

      Is voice mail easy to use?

      Yes. In fact, it was one of the earliest services to do voicemail transcription and visual voicemail. You can listen to the voicemail or just read the transcription of it. Or do both.

      Can I have it go directly to voice mail after a certain time? (My employer does give me a cell phone allowance, and I’m not at all interested in getting a second phone.)

      You mean after a certain number of rings?

      1. Lisa B*

        This was REALLY helpful, thank you!! For that last one, I’m meaning clock-time… so have calls for the work number automatically go to voice mail between 8pm and 6am, for example? And if someone calls the Google Voice number, will I see on my phone that they called the Google Voice line, not my cell phone directly?

    3. lemon*

      “Does it clearly identify it’s coming from the Google Voice number?”

      On a cell phone, no. But a workaround I use is that during work hours, I have the web version open on my computer. When I get a call via Voice, I get a browser notification, in addition to my phone ringing, so I know it’s a Voice call. That doesn’t happen if someone’s calling my regular cell number.

      “Can I have it go directly to voice mail after a certain time?”

      Yes. You can set working hours in your Google calendar. If you get a call outside of working hours, you can have the call sent directly to voicemail.

      I love Google Voice. Highly recommend.

      1. lemon*

        I guess another workaround you could use to identify which calls are coming in via Google Voice is you can screen calls via Voice. So, when someone calls you, the Voice robot will ask them their name. Then, it’ll call you and say, “So-and-So is trying to call you. Do you want to accept?” or something like that.

      1. nonegiven*

        I forgot to mention, I forward my cell number on busy and on unanswered calls so that GV handles my voicemail. That way it sends me a text of all my vm.

        I’ve made calls by telling it to call the number and ring my cell or landline first so that the call looks like it’s coming from the GV number. There is some lag, in my area anyway.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, I have used a GV number for years. I have it set to ring my cellphone and my landline simultaneously. When I had an office job with regular hours, I set it to ring there during work hours and at home in the evening.

      The texts and vm work pretty much the same as the native functions on my phone.

      The only idiosyncrasy that’s a slight annoyance, is that I never know whether the GV number or the native number on my phone will show up in my outgoing texts and calls. So sometimes that confuses new contacts. If it comes up, I just tell them to use the GV number, because it will reach me wherever I am.

  86. theguvnah*

    I’m being asked to give feedback to a proposed new compensation plan within my organization. It has been very dramatic so far, as these things often are. In particular, I am stuck on the component that says that pay increases are not at all tied to performance evaluations. In other words, there is no way to get a raise (beyond a COLA when budgets allow) unless you get a promotion, which of course requires a significant change in your job responsibilities.

    I am LIVID about this and expect my team and others to be, too. I am not sure I have the power to change anything, but my feedback is listened to and I have no fear of retribution for being honest (trust me on that point).

    I feel this disincentivizes people from going above and beyond and kicking butt at their jobs and turns us – a mission-driven org – into a factory which will harms our impact.

    Agree, disagree? what else would you add if you agree with me and could give feedback?

    1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      “I am stuck on the component that says that pay increases are not at all tied to performance evaluations. [ . . . ] I feel this disincentivizes people from going above and beyond and kicking butt at their jobs”

      Strongly agree. Did they at least explain why they’re doing this, what purpose they think it’ll serve?

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think this is going to cause your organization to start bleeding competent employees.

      Say you have a stellar zebra wrangler on staff. Best zebra wrangler you’ve ever had. But you only ever offer COLA increases, not merit based raises. 5 years in, your stellar zebra wrangler will be making substantially less than the zebra wranglers with comparable experience make over at your competitors across town. So when this zebra wrangler finds out she could be making a lot more money if she jumps ship and switches companies, she’s going to do exactly that.

      And then all your company will be left with is the employees who aren’t excelling at their jobs, because those are the ones who can’t get hired elsewhere.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        BINGO. Your company’s going to mess around and have nothing but mediocre employees left.

      2. Flyleaf*

        Even worse, your best zebra wrangler will be getting the same raise as your least competent zebra wrangler. And they will know it. They will be upset and will leave to work somewhere that treats employees fairly.

    3. AnonyMouse*

      The potential problem with tying raises to performance evaluations is that it can strong incentivize management to lower performance evaluations as a cost saving measure. I’ve mostly seen this in non-profits where money is tight so the evaluation criteria gets harder and harder until it is literally impossible to receive a merit based pay increase.

      That being said, they should still have some path to allow merit based pay increases because just disallowing them all together is beyond stupid.

    4. Darren*

      I think there are two main questions.

      First is how graduated are these promotions? If you’ve got say 10 levels of zebra wranglers with the expectations that typically it’ll take 3-ish years to transition the levels but someone stellar might get promoted every year, and clear guidelines on what it takes to demonstrate you are now a Level 4 Zebra Wrangler instead of a Level 3 this lack of merit based raises could be okay. It wouldn’t be great but with clear advancement, and a lot of graduated steps you’d still be able to retain stellar employees.

      But the second and I’d say biggest question is why are they going with this? Are their salary bands between the levels so tight there isn’t room for merit based increases without resulting in a Senior Zebra Wrangler making less than a Zebra Wrangler while the Zebra Wrangler hasn’t demonstrated the abilities to step into that senior role? Are they concerned that they wouldn’t be able to justify any pay discrepancies?

      Without knowing why they don’t want the merit raises it’s difficult to work out exactly what you need to reassure them about.

  87. Mid*

    I’m pretty sure I know the answer to this, but I’d like an extra opinion!

    I applied and made it to the final round of interviews for a job at a small law firm. I found out that one of the two founding partners passed away yesterday. Everyone in the firm was pretty close with him, and everyone is quite sad about it. I met the deceased once before, at a non-work related event (he’s an alumni of my undergraduate alma matter, and I used to work in alumni relations on campus.)

    Because I’m from the Midwest, my instinct when I hear sad news is to make a casserole, which is obviously inappropriate. But, should I send flowers or some sort of card in acknowledgement? I don’t want it to seem like I’m trying to win brownie points, it’s just what I was taught to do, being raised in a small town.

    FWIW, I’m leaning towards doing nothing, because I’m pretty sure it would come across as strange and attention grabbing, even though my intentions would be good.

    Second question: after an interview, do you prefer thank you notes, or emails? What if you don’t have direct contact with the company, but are working through a recruiter?

    FWIW, I like sending mail, and I like making cards, and so I default to sending paper thank you notes to the business address, C/O [interviewer name]. I make cards in my free time (nothing too cutesy or obviously hand made, I sent my thank you notes on a card I had made from a photograph I took of local wildlife.)

    1. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      That’s so sad! I probably would send an email not related to the job interview expressing condolences.
      As for the thank you note, I think something homemade sounds really nice! I once got that from a freelancer thanking our agency for the gig. :-) But if you think they are making the decision imminently, an email might be faster. Hang in there!

    2. Colette*

      So with respect to the death, you can express your condolences when you next talk with them, but I wouldn’t send flowers or a card.

      And I’d send an email thank you/follow up note – it’s easier to forward, faster to receive, and more relevant to the job.

    3. Undomiel*

      I wouldn’t send anything regarding the deceased partner – maybe offer condolences in person if you meet with them again, but anything else would probably seem a bit much.

      Emails, every time. I don’t even check my physical mailbox more than once a month, since I don’t get anything except promo material and magazines delivered there. I wouldn’t receive your note in time for it to have any impact, and since the point should not be actually to say thank you but to follow up, reiterate interest in the role and demonstrate that you have reflected on the interview, it really needs to be seen promptly. I haven’t seen anyone send a physical thank you note in years. Handmade cards seem more like a social than a professional thing.

  88. What you see here...*

    So this happened this week, and I just want to roll my eyes right out of my head.

    I work in a call center, of sorts, but it’s internal – we take calls from other employees (but they are still referred to as “customers”, another eyeroll-worthy thing I won’t get into right now). Morale is low… We are kept on a short leash and treated like kindergarteners. The practice we all love of sending team-wide memos for a problem with one or two people is standard here and leadership sees nothing wrong with it.

    So this week we were all given little dollar store magnetic mirrors, with a “motivational” message printed and taped onto them: “What you see here is what the customer hears!” It took all I had to keep from turning and throwing mine straight in the trash. Let’s ignore for a second that the women got pink ones and the men’s were blue… I feel like this completely ignores the fact that what you see in that mirror is largely a reflection of how we as employees are being treated, and puts the responsibility for morale solely in our laps. It’s like a more subtle version of “The beatings will continue until morale improves.”

    1. Quill*

      I’d tape a photo of gollum on mine.

      “Yesss, preciousss, have you tried turning it off and back on again?”

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Somewhere I bet you can find actual stickers like the filters you can add on various photo apps. And paint or tape over the pink (and blue) parts in rainbow or black, because that’s awful.

          Also, oops it broke, how unlucky, toss it.

  89. BigLo*

    I’m hoping to get a little guidance on handling emails with people who tend to only answer (or even worse half-answer) one question when I’ve asked several. I work in consulting and get SO frustrated when I’ve asked 2-3 questions by email and the response is a half-answer to only one question! There are some people I’ve realized I need to use very simple bulleted Qs with, but with others it seems I can’t get more than one answer no matter what. Obviously it is a waste of my time to keep emailing back “okay but what about xyz” and phone calls aren’t always feasible. What can I actually say when I mean to say “Can you just answer all of my f***ing questions???”

    1. Mid*

      Would numbers help? I know it’s silly, but maybe people would be better at answering multiple questions if there was a clear sign they weren’t answering. Then you could also reply to their incomplete answers with “thanks for the answer on [Q1], what about 2 and 3?”

      Also, can you ask them what their preferred type of communication is? And say something that means “I don’t get the answers I need from emails with you, so how can I get answers without pulling teeth” but more polite and professional.

    2. TheOtherLiz*

      Ah, this frustrates me too. I have learned to make it REALLY REALLY OBVIOUS what they need to do about the email – like, the subject line might say “3 questions I need you to answer by Friday” or “What do you think about pizza for lunch and ordering 50 teapot pamphlets?”

      I also make use of bolding, bullets, and call people out by name halfway down the email to make sure they keep reading. Then, if they respond to one question I reply quickly with “Thanks! Also what about (question 2)?”

    3. Free Meerkats*

      I had one of these. So if I had multiple questions, they got multiple emails with one question each, sent as fast as I could type them. I may have typed several up and sent a machine gun blast as fast as I could click send.

      When I got the complaint that I was inundating her with email, I told her that she would typically only answer one question from an email with several; which she of course denied. Even after I showed her multiple examples.

    4. Zombie Unicorn*

      Try putting them in a table with a space for their answer to each question / line – that can help.

    5. BigLo*

      Thanks for the advice!! I should have mentioned earlier that my communications are between various small government officials and our clients and I more often see this issue on the government-side but can happen with clients too. If I’m sending an email with a local government it’s not often a back-and-forth situation but rather I am asking for something and just need a confirmation and then I won’t need deal with them possibly ever again. I will definitely try numbers and love the idea of the tables with a box for responses!

  90. Say It Ain't So*

    Recently, my boss has actually asked me recently if everything was okay with co-worker; co-worker seemed distracted lately, was not turning around deliverables within timeframes (which were affecting others’ work), and had some vague excuses why she was behind. Boss knows co-worker and I are pretty good friends and we often chat about stresses in our personal lives, but I honestly hadn’t a clue and wasn’t aware of anything out of the ordinary in either her work or personal life. Then, I popped into my co-worker’s office the other day and saw that she had work from her other job up on her screen. She was clearly actively doing work for her other job. On work time. On work equipment. While deadlines had come and passed and she was still not turning in her deliverables and making the rest of the team hold on their timelines.

    Do I bring this up to boss? Let it lie? I’m not great at tact and struggle with how to start these kinds of conversations. I’m not even sure if this is mine to bring up. I don’t want her to lose her job, I don’t want to hurt a friend, but I know our team and workload is currently being heavily scrutinized by higher ups and boss and grandboss are taking a hard look at all of our roles. (Well, the entire company is being scrutinized, so it’s not just us, but things are somewhat tense these days and we’re extra sensitive to workloads right now.)

    1. Mid*

      I’d talk to her first, explain what’s going on and what you saw, and then tell her that you have to talk to your boss. Because working for one company while getting paid by another for work you aren’t doing is not okay, and if I were your boss I would be very upset if you knew what was going on and hid it. You don’t have to tell your boss exactly what your coworker is doing, but maybe suggest they’re distracted because of other projects and that your boss should talk to coworker directly.

    2. Auntie Social*

      I would just talk to your boss and not her. If you talk to her she’ll just try to cover her tracks. Too much depends, for other employees as well as you, on him knowing ASAP.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      I have to disagree with the responses to tell your boss without talking to your co-worker/friend first. I’d tell your friend that you noticed she was working on projects from her other job, and that you were recently asked if everything is okay with her because your boss seemed concerned and this has the potential to bring more scrutiny to the entire team and potentially jeopardize the rest of the team’s job security. I’d tell her point blank that you aren’t comfortable knowing that she is using work time and resources to perform work for her other job and that if it continues, you will need to raise the issue with your boss. This gives her the opportunity to stop what she’s doing while putting her on notice that you know and will raise the issue if she continues.

      Also, I’m not typically in favor of ratting out a co-worker on your same team, especially when they have the ability to impact your work. I’ve found that rarely works out well. Also, you refer to her as your friend. If you really do value her friendship, I think you minimally owe her a heads up that you know what she’s doing, feel it’s unethical, and can’t condone it. Perhaps she’s doing it because she’s in dire financial straits or perhaps she was working when you saw her, but has not been doing so consistently. I don’t think witnessing something one time necessarily means that it’s happening all the time, although it very well could be.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I get that it could be a one-off and she’s a friendly coworker, but it’s more likely (given what the manager has already noticed about her increasingly poor productivity) that it’s not. And the only people who can get that information are IT by looking into her computer usage. Which they will probably only do if notified by the manager that something needs to be investigated, and the manager did ask what might be causing the coworker’s work issues that are affecting the whole team and possibly skewing the workload assessment. I can see an argument for warning the coworker first about what you saw and that you feel obligated to say something because it is impacting you/your team. But there’s kinda no excuse for that so even if she promises never to do it again, is that enough?

      I’m biased toward reporting because at my company that would be inappropriate use of company resources and possibly timecard fraud if she was claiming that time was spent working for the company and not the second job. The first is a writeup, the second usually gets you fired. And that’s assuming that the second job was okayed by the company in the first place. If it’s a conflict of interest, that would be another big deal.

    5. Anon Librarian*

      You’re in a conflict of interest situation. I bet Boss asked you out of concern for Co-Worker’s well being, thinking they could be dealing with some personal stuff. But now, you’re in a situation where you essentially have to take sides and betray one or the other (company you work for versus friendship).

      So don’t do either, at least right now. Step back. Tell Boss you’d rather not get involved. Because you’re friends and you’re not her supervisor. Step back from the friendship a bit too, possibly. Because Co-Worker is making bad choices at work and you don’t want that to reflect on you or affect you in any way. Just stay professional, do great work, and let Boss and Co-Worker figure this out without you.

      1. Darren*

        I don’t think you can really step out of a situation like this.

        If and when the Boss finds out what Co-Worker has been doing and asks, “Did you know Co-Worker was working on another job’s activities while on company time?” are you going to lie to them? Are you confident enough that you can do it without making it obvious you are lying? If you don’t lie how are you going to answer the follow-up questions?

        At this point you know your Co-Worker has violated company policies. Failure to report this is almost certainly also a breach of these policies, and especially when your Boss has had a talk to you raising concern about Co-Workers ability to deliver does carry the risk of you being terminated as well whether or not you are working just fine.

        You either tell your Co-Worker first to get her to knock it off before the Boss finds out, or you tell your Boss, staying on the sidelines isn’t really an option. I know for a fact I’d be firing someone who knew, especially given the situation where the output of my team is being questioned and I might have gone to bat for this person just having a rough time when you knew differently (making me look like an idiot) and even more so if you tried to lie to me about it (and trust me you wouldn’t actually be able to lie without me knowing, without me being able to prove sure, but I don’t need proof to terminate you).

        Personally I’d tell my Co-Worker first, but if they didn’t knock it off immediately I’d have to report them.

  91. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I’m really frustrated with my management. Way back in April/May, got handed a project with no warning, little context, etc. Had some meetings with the management, including the big boss, to figure out what they wanted. Was told to look at a, b, and c and figure out what made sense from there. Well, I did. I looked at a, b and c, came up with a plan, got it ready to go, etc. Met yesterday with the big boss and he starts asking about the process of how we got to where we are.

    Well, my process was pretty simple. I started with a, b and c. Except, he wanted us to look at the full alphabet and figure out what made sense to look at. Then gives me information about m and n that I’ve never heard about that would have radically changed what I did. I feel like having a conversation with him and basically say, hey, if you tell me to look at a, b and c, that’s what I’m going to do. If you want something else, you need to tell me that. Because I’m going to do what you tell me. So don’t have a problem now because you didn’t tell me what you wanted and you didn’t give me important information, because that’s on you.

    But that’s probably not a good idea. I just want a weekend.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That’s annoying. You’re not alone (happens to me as well), but still annoying management.

      Not sure if you’re looking for advice or just to vent. If just venting, please ignore the rest:

      It sounds like you’re management *isn’t* communicating that what they *want* is to have more involvement/updates, instead of just the final product. So, maybe if something similar happens, maybe ask for a meeting every 2-3 months to update them on what you’ve done, where you’re going, and provide them a chance to give feedback.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        In this case, I think the big boss just changes his mind/can’t make up his mind. He does it to everyone really, but in this case, its probably going to screw up my vacation (week of Labor day). Which he really isn’t going to be happy about, there’s a strong culture of respecting time off in my dept. Maybe it’ll clue him in.

  92. Wilhelmina Constance*

    Um… Things happened very quickly this week.
    Last week I posted about an internal transfer and having to talk to my immediate line manager before applying, and got some great advice about getting HR to advocate etc. (thanks guys!)

    Well, on Monday I got an email from the hiring manager (who’s been on leave) making sure I’d seen the vacancy advert and gently hinting towards my application. I also had an informal chat with another coworker (who works closely with the hiring manager and was privy to the vacancy) who let me know that the senior boss (boss of my boss and the hiring manager) had already been informed that I was an ideal candidate. And then I got an email from one of the guys in HR highlighting said vacancy and offering to help me with my cover letter!
    Basically, soliciting me for the role has been my company’s worst kept secret – I was almost the last to know!

    But I still needed to let my line manager know.

    I was incredibly nervous, and left it until 4:45pm so I could run away home if it didn’t go well (I’m a conflict averse coward!). And it was…
    …a complete anticlimax.
    I must have rambled for about a minute, during which time she just looked bewildered, but when she got the gist, she basically said “well, you have to do what’s best for you.” No passive agressive tone (like last time), no trying to talk me out of it (like last time). Not even a tone of resignation to the inevitable.
    So, in a bit of a daze (because I was sideswiped by her lack of objection), I pressed submit on my application.

    And I have a formal interview next week!

  93. Sneaking In From The Circulation Desk*

    It’s me again. I’m wanting some perspective–I can’t decide if I should be frustrated enough to leave, or if I’m being unreasonable.

    I enjoy working with my coworkers, I even enjoy working with my manager. I strongly believe in our mission as a public library. Our medical, dental, and vision benefits are great, and we get 4 hours added to our PTO every two weeks.

    But the pay is awful, less than $12 an hour when the living wage in our city is $18. The only way I can make my pay livable is by working overtime. Due to the way hours are scheduled, there’s always 4 or 5 hours of overtime available every week for whoever signs up. However, working 44 or 45 a week and having only one day off is rough on me.

    I can’t negotiate for a higher salary–the salary for my job class is decided by a contract between the city and my union. Nor does the union seem to care about higher salaries. Thanks to an agreement between the city and the union, if an employee uses paid time off during the same week they have overtime, an amount of overtime equivalent to the time the employee takes off is converted to “straight time,” which is just time instead of time-and-a-half. So, if I take an hour off on Monday, my four hours of overtime becomes three hours of overtime and one hour of straight pay. If I take an entire day off? No overtime pay, just four hours of straight time pay.

    What really burns me is that union meetings are held during work hours, at 5:30 pm on a day when I don’t get off work until 8pm. So I can’t even show up to vote or advocate unless I kiss a good chunk of my overtime pay goodbye.

    Is this pay, overtime, and pto agreement normal? Or should I work on brushing up my resume and getting out?

    1. LCL*

      It’s not normal in my union workplace. I saw my friend who worked in healthcare work under these conditions in many different facilities. Union meetings aren’t where things are done anyway, they are where the membership is updated and gets to share their concerns.. Find out who your shop steward is and talk to them to find out the history and the likelihood of bringing a general wage increase to the members next contract.

    2. That'll happen*

      The FLSA does not require employers to include PTO/sick time in overtime calculations. At all of my workplaces, it has been made very clear that overtime is paid based on hours worked only.

    3. Enough*

      I don’t think the arrangement is all that strange. Son has the same set up. I look at it as you get overtime pay for working more than 40 hours. If you take 8 hrs pto you have only worked 32 hours that week. So getting paid for 40 hours of work and 8 hours of not working without overtime pay seems responsible.

    4. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I’d be looking elsewhere. Even with those benefits and enjoying your work culture, it would be hard to live on that wage. Have you looked elsewhere?

      1. Sneaking In From The Circulation Desk*

        I’ve tried applying to higher-ranking (and paying) positions in our library system, but I’ve been passed over so far. I have looked at other library systems, and they do pay much better even for my clerical position.

    5. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      “Nor does the union seem to care about higher salaries.”

      Not every union is a good one.

      I have a civil service job where different titles are represented by different unions. I had gotten a promotion into a title, Coffee Cup Assistant (CCA). CCAs were represented by the Teapot Designers’ Association (TDA). I didn’t know it at the time, but the TDA only cared about teapot designers and didn’t do $hit for CCAs.

      Unfortunately, I wasn’t doing as well as I had hoped in my new title. Three months into my probationary period, management wanted to demote me back to my previous title. I went to the union to get their help, because I had been under the impression that probationary periods were generally supposed to be six months or a year. (It turns out that, according to the employee handbook, probationary periods are supposed to be a minimum of six months. At the time, I didn’t think to check the handbook, so I couldn’t use that as a backup when I went to the union.)

      A good union will go to management and make them justify their reasoning. But my union, instead of fighting for me, instead of saying “You can’t do this!”, wrote a really half-a$$ed letter that meekly asked, “Can you do this?” And, of course, management said “Yes, we can” and the union essentially said “Okay, fine.” I’m sure if I had been a Teapot Designer, the union would have fought for me.

      So in this specific case, the union let me down. But they were happy to keep collecting my dues for the remaining time that I was still a CCA.

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      If you are able to find a better paying job and quit this one, make sure to give “I needed a higher paying job” as your official reason for leaving. My library district recently did a market study and bumped up pay rates across the board, and the primary reason we were able to get the municipal government to approve it was because we had a lot of evidence that our low salaries were causing people to quit or turn down jobs with us.

  94. WhereIsMyResumeHiding?!*

    I’m not job searching and haven’t been for six months. But I was and my resume went out with on-line applications both to employment agencies and directly to companies. It was also visible on some of the popular job hunt websites. I took it all down months ago but I’m still getting e-mails, not only are these unnecessary but they’re getting annoying and most are obvious scams. Yesterday for example I got one with the standard “Found your resume and think your background and experience makes you be a perfect fit for this role” message. But the role was a traveling RN! I am not a nurse and never have been and there is no mention of any sort of medical license on my resume. The closest it comes is having worked in administration in an insurance setting for several years.
    I’ve already completely deleted my resume from the job sites and searched for myself to see if anything I missed is out there. Could these just be employment agencies sharing info with each other? Or maybe these companies pulled my resume when I was searching and they’ve kept it in their database since? Looking to confirm if one of these or something similar is true and common or if anyone knows of places my resume and job search info might be hiding that I can still control, find and update. Besides annoying it’s a little upsetting to think that these strange people at companies I don’t know and might not approve of have all of my background and are actively using it to market to me.

    1. juliebulie*

      Your info was probably harvested by multiple recruiters while it was posted, and possibly added to some database that is shared or sold so that you can be spammed by lazy/cheap recruiters who won’t pay Monster, Dice, et al for access to more recent info.

      I get queries from people via LinkedIn all the time even though my profile indicates that I am NOT looking for work.

      And yeah I’ve also gotten queries for jobs that are far outside my expertise, interests, and geographic area.

      1. WhereIsMyResumeHiding*

        That’s what I thought was most likely but I guess I was hoping for another explanation with an easy fix. I think I was made a little paranoid by a letter where the interviewer had a google street view print out of the applicants house and the subsequent discussion about not putting your full address on the resume. I did have my full address on mine, and e-mail and, for a time, phone number. Now I feel weird about who has that info and who bought it, I wonder if resumes are ever a starting point for identity theft? Well, as the say, you can’t unring a bell. I’ll just stick with what I’ve been doing if I don’t know the person or company; nothing, no response or acknowledgement not even an unsubscribe.

    2. Mrs_helm*

      I can’t say if any of that is true, but I can commiserate. I’ve been getting this stuff for years. There are a few that are consistent and targeted – though I didn’t sign up with them, they are at least in my field. There are others that seem to be location-based but not at all considerate of field (but also not entry level), which makes NO sense IMO.

  95. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Inspired by the HR post at the top of the page–I’m curious if any folks can reflect on a past experience for me.

    At a previous job, a new team member was hired who I vaguely knew. Something bugged me for a while, and looking back I found he had sent me inappropriate messages (non explicit) a few years back. I brought the messages to my boss and HR, and while my boss was supportive HR told me that there was nothing they could do because 1) the messages happened before he started working there 2) there was no instance of inappropriate behavior from him while he’s worked there.

    I was asked not to share the messages with anyone else on my team because “he could sue me for creating a hostile work environment” if other people treated him differently because of this. I ended up leaving soon after for other reasons, but this still bugs me. Was the HR rep right? They claimed to be trying to protect me, but I never believed them.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m interested in seeing what others will think. Honestly, what were the level of the messages? That really changes it for me, personally. Generic “hey, you’re hot” from a few years (!) back is pretty different than “hey I hate you and hope a bus hits you” from a few years (!) back.

      People change a lot in several years. I’m not sure what you expected HR to do – punish him for something that happened several years ago, with no association to them or the company? Did you want to be on a different team? What was the outcome you wanted?

      1. Goose Lavel*

        He may have changed and now knows proper boundarys. Wait and see if it happens and you have a strong case since you already alerted HR.

    2. That's what I think Anway*

      I recommend sending a follow up email documenting your takeaways from the conversation, and specifically mention that if others report inappropriate messages from the same dude, this provides context and a clear history of continuing unacceptable behavior that should factor into their decision making.

      Can’t speak whether HR’s reaction was appropriate but I’m glad you submitted that documentation since it could potentially help other people. I’m sorry you have to work with a gross, inappropriate dude.

    3. Darren*

      It is a tricky situation. In probably a lot of ways it’s similar to someone having say social media posts about something controversial several years ago. It’s a data point HR would want to know about but whether they should act on it is another question entirely. I’d reckon in general probably not, unless it’s something that seems bad enough they don’t want to take the risks.

      They might not have the same opinion (or in this case be so much of a gross idiot) and that does seem to be the case (at least so far) with the fact that there have been no instances of similar behaviour while he has been working there. If you did share the messages and your team gave him a hard time about it you would potentially be creating a hostile work environment for him. Knowing about it is good, because if HR knows and they get a report from someone about current inappropriate behaviour they can act much more swiftly.

      On the other hand if it’s bad enough (the content of those texts, or the controversial opinion) HR might not be willing to take the risk that he actually does still have the same opinion. At the very least they might have a chat with him make it clear they are aware of previous instances of X, and putting him on notice that it wouldn’t be tolerated (although if it’s bad enough they might just go straight to firing).

  96. yala*

    so yesterday and wednesday were very productive for me…but the downside is now that I’ve cleared most of the projects at my desk, all that’s left is the one project I’m terrified to go back to because I’ve screwed it up a couple of times already, and I still don’t quite understand it, but there’s nothing really left to ask.

    …also two items waiting for me to get up the guts to go to my supervisor and say “ok, but the way you told me to do these doesn’t work, and even though we’ve sort of done similar items this way, we weren’t consistent about grouping them all together, and so now it’s all spread-out and not actually that organized, plus it’s going to be unsustainable in the long run.”

    I went and made a list of all similar items and everything, but I’m worried it’s going to be seen as me being insubordinate and making something more trouble than it’s worth. (And yes, fixing the old items would be A Project, but I’m close to being out of projects and I know my supervisor has a lot on her plate right now to start me on a new one that might be more complicated than this.)

    …sigh

    1. yala*

      I’m also just a little frustrated, because I’m never sure when I can/should take initiative, and when I might be overstepping my bounds. I’m cleaning up some old records to make a little extra work for myself between projects, but even then I’m worried that I Shouldn’t Be Doing It.

  97. Relatively new hire*

    I did it! I put in notice at my job because I couldn’t take it anymore! Next week is my last week and I’ve felt so calm and happy since then, I know it was the right decision for my mental health despite the risk. My question is- I’m in the middle of a job search so I have 1 place that’s interviewing other candidates, and 2 places that I’m starting the interview process for. Plus I’m sending out applications regularly. Right now my resume/cover letter acts as if I’m still employed bc…I am. Once I hit my last day at my job though…is that when I need to change my resume/cover letter/linked in? Do I need to put in a sentence or two about why I left my job after 6 months? Is it enough to say “Unfortunately I had to move on bc it was a bad fit”, or do I need to go into detail like- “I wasn’t able to do any of the projects I was told I would be working on like XYZ, our team went from 7 to 2 during my time there, and I was unable to meet with my manager consistently to talk about projects”? Should I also put in that the #2 at the org (my boss’s boss) is willing to be a reference? I could also ask basically anyone else at my job because they all know, but my assumption is getting a good reference from #2 says the most. My natural urge is to be really honest about the facts of the situation but I don’t want to come off like I’m badmouthing my soon-to-be former employer. I’m also assuming the more specific details (multiple complaints to HR from other high level team members about my manager, #2 wanted me to be managed by him, he was told by general counsel it would look like retaliation) are a no-go.

    1. dinoweeds*

      I would change my resume asap to reflect that you no longer work there just so that it is clear to the person viewing it. Other than that, I wouldn’t add any extra verbiage anywhere about why you left. If the hiring manager/recruiter/whoever notices the length of time you worked there they will address it during an interview.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Do update your resume to indicate your final day (after that passes).

      Do NOT include any of the description of why you left in your cover letter. It’s too complicated to go into in a cover letter. Pick one or two reasons why you left that are fairly neutral or can be framed as fairly neutral to discuss if asked. What you listed sound like they could fit that category.

      Then add why you’re interested in the position you’re interviewing for. If you list everything or go on too long about why it didn’t work out in PastJob, it becomes more and more like you’re badmouthing them.

  98. Jessen*

    I’d just like to post a reminder to myself and everyone else that it’s totally ok if you’re not where you want to be in your career, are in an entry-level job and feel too old, are changing careers late, or whatever else where life hasn’t gone the way you planned and you feel like you’re behind. Life’s different and you aren’t your job, and it’s ok if you’re not the superstar of the office.

    Ok, that might mostly be a reminder for me, but I’m sure there’s others of you here. Anyone?

    1. anoncuzdetails*

      *raises hand*

      I’m starting college on Monday. At 27. I tried a couple years ago, took an English class, and then things didn’t work out. Went back again 2 years ago but just for a few months to get the cert I needed for my current job. So here I am again (didn’t go after high school because money). I’ve changed careers a couple times and I love my current job but it doesn’t pay well (I clear 17k a year after taxes in an area where rent on a cheap apartment is at least $800 a month). So here we are, trying again. It’s so depressing.

      1. lemon*

        I was also 27 when I went back to college. I thought it was going to be weird, but it wasn’t. I discovered that there were a lot of students who were my age, or older, who were in the same boat. Professors appreciated having students who were a little more mature and didn’t have a freak out every time there was a paper due, and I built really solid relationship with them. I graduated cum laude at 31.

        Now, I’m in working a job I really like, and also getting my master’s in a field I love, and making the most money I’ve ever earned in my life. This is the first time I’ve ever truly had financial stability and had an emergency fund and a retirement account, which are things I never thought I’d have when I was in my twenties. Getting my degree, even at 27, was the best decision I’ve ever made.

        Congrats to you for doing something awesome for your future!

    2. AnonyMouse*

      I have a computer science degree and got a job as a programmer straight out of college… and then I panicked because of the awful cultural stuff (being hit in the face with a screaming monkey toy, co-workers “joking” about raping me, being talked down to about everything) that I got myself fired and went into admin stuff instead. Now at 30 I’m tentatively looking at entry level programming positions again and it honestly scares me to death.

    3. Mimmy*

      I’ve been stuck in entry-level land for my entire working life despite having a Masters and a graduate certificate. I am nearly 46 and am for the first time starting to feel like I’m on the right path. I’m not there yet, but I’m the closest I’ve ever been.

  99. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello, friends! I hope everyone has a had a good week, or at least has a good weekend on the horizon!

    Soooo… if you read my post last week you might remember me talking about how my old company, which rant the Hellmouth before announcing it was going to be shutting down at the end of June (Sunnydale Ltd) reached out to me and said that they wanted to give me a $109 severance in exchange for signing some simple paperwork wherein the first line said that said they chose to terminate my employment (they didn’t) effective on June 30th (not my last day), and the rest said that I would never sue them or speak ill of them? Well, I decided not to sign (I didn’t like the verbiage, everyone said not to sign, and also they can pry the right to talk smack about the company and my time at the Hellmouth from my cold, dead hands) and just didn’t respond. So on Wednesday, the senior VP/head legal counsel (should I start calling her Harmony, or go for a Wolfram & Hart name?) emailed me asking about the paperwork. I genially replied that I had been advised against signing it due to some of the verbiage, the inaccurate last date of employment, etc., and thanked her for following up but said I would be opting out. I figured I would probably never hear from her again, but within a few minutes of sending off my email she called and left a voicemail urging me to call her back so she could go over any concerns and also explain how standard the verbiage of the document is—saying they chose to terminate me could mean that they chose to accept my notice, the different last day was just because it was the last day everyone was employed with the company, even if I had only worked until an earlier date in the month, etc., etc.—so I could feel comfortable signing the paperwork.

    Is this kind of weird? I mean, I certainly enjoy thinking it is (and don’t plan to sign anything even if it *isn’t* weird) but… is it just a little weird? I mean, it seems like she would have just responded to the email unless she didn’t want to put things like “saying we decided to terminate your employment doesn’t mean we FIRED you, it’s a broad statement that could easily mean we accepted your notice,” etc., in print. Anyway. I didn’t call back, so I guess we’ll see if she calls back again before the deadline for their offer expires.

    GUMPTION Girl has been spotted on the property several times after hours, the last time while being accompanied by a the scruffy guy from before… except that time he was wearing an ascot. Very strange. At this point, people who are not me have been spotting her (or getting cornered by her) enough that the manager is planning to have words with her the next time she turns up and telling her 1) she will not be working here, and 2) this is private property and her lurking routine in not welcome. We’ll see if it actually happens.

    Everything else has been pretty normal for property management. We’ve had one trouble making resident stalk and endlessly report another resident at the pool because she was sure she was “sneaking onto property and did not live here,” and the resident who used to live at the Hellmouth is livid because she can sometimes hear footsteps from the apartment above her and wants us to “put an end to it” (it being them… walking in their home?), and Building One is being terrorized by a nasty note leaver. I finally have the weekend off, so I’m trying to make myself stay productive, but I’m just kind of dying for closing time so I can go nap and eat and relax for two days. Huzzah!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Considering how many of us have been wanting an extended book or movie deal for Worked on a Hallmouth, I’m glad she didn’t sign!

        1. Fibchopkin*

          Agreed! And I am willing to bet that there are enough of us willing to kick in $10 – $15 bucks for the privilege of reading/watching this story that beloved OP will make hundreds of times more by NOT signing any such nonsense.

          1. Curmudgeon in California*

            Heck, I turned down a month’s pay to not sign one of those “Don’t speak ill of the company. There was no discrimination, harassment or retaliation.” etc documents. I hope someone in their corporate HR lost sleep over it.

            $109 is insulting.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Me too! The last time I saw someone wearing an ascot, I’m pretty sure they were cosplaying Fred from Scooby-Doo.

    1. Colette*

      Oh, I definitely would not sign! Especially not for $109. That’s not a severance in any sort of meaningful way.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Right? And I’m kind of surprised at the amount of follow up for such a low amount. Although maybe amount doesn’t matter for that…

          1. Wheee!*

            If it’s important to them, surely they would pay more than $109 for it? Say, at least two weeks pay? I still wouldn’t recommend signing it, but at least it would make more sense.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        Anyone who wants me to sign something so badly that they repeatedly ask me…um, not gonna happen. Every time you ask is another opportunity for you to alienate me.
        Happy weekend! Thank you for your updates.

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        If they wanted to buy her silence, they really should have started with a higher price.

    2. Brownie*

      Wait… did she not understand that pressuring you to sign the paperwork might actually make you less comfortable signing it? The way she’s treating this would make me go hunting for a magnifying glass to see if there’s something really nasty for the signer in the paperwork, especially with a lack of written paper trail after the first email exchange.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Yeah, she sounds desperate. Which is what I’d tell her. That, and that I would NEVER give up my right to sue for a crummy $100.

        1. Auntie Social*

          If you got fired from your current job and asked to receive unemployment, Unemployment would be charging Hellmouth employer, since you haven’t been with current company long enough. So they would need to make you a serious offer if you’re being asked to waive your right to collect unemployment. And your new place comes with its own stalker, apparently, so maybe you’ll decide it’s just not safe, and quit. You need those employment quarters to fall back on. That severance could be suicide. And a lousy $109? Have them make a serious offer.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I kind of wonder if she’s just shocked that I’m turning down free money. But yeah, I also have to wonder why she’s thinking someone who has said the verbiage is incorrect twice and has directly stated that they will be opting out would respond well to “give me a chance to explain” voicemails minutes after a declining email.

        1. Brownie*

          I’m now really curious what’s going on and am wondering what could be done to make her flail about enough so she reveals what’s going on. Any time a lawyer is willing to spend billable time to make someone sign something after the first refusal to sign? Yeah, that’s got red flags all over it like a circus tent.

          1. Venus*

            I think it’s pretty clear that the place was a dumpster fire and they don’t want that to be public knowledge. I expect they have asked all other employees to sign the same thing.

          2. Quandong*

            I suspect she is under pressure from the higher ups to lock down any potential unwanted publicity with a Quickness.

    3. Enough*

      It seems like something’s going on and they are trying to cover their a$$. Whether it’s everyone who was employed with you or just you because of the issues you had that you brought to HR. I believe you said there was a change or ownership/management. This can result in a need to close/reduce outstanding issues that the new company becomes responsible for even if they were not a party to the problem.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        None! Although we now have a banded water snake that likes to hang out either in the parking spaces or on the sidewalk directly in front of our office–I get a great view of him because the leasing office is basically a fishbowl with huge floor to ceiling windows everywhere. I have named him Dan. The residents freak out about Dan, so maintenance will either chase him off or (provided they can catch him) drop him back over the fence by the creek, but as long as the pavement is warm and the grass is filled with tasty toads (oh, I am so sorry, poor tasty toads) I don’t think we’ll be rid of him any time soon.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Reminds me how the emails we got about the “Eastern Black Snake” (sic) that loved the sunny sidewalk next to the smoking area. The powers that be made it funnier by not using the right name, because the snake is actually called the “Eastern rat snake”. They were worried about people jumping to fears of rats. We border a wetland area, folks, there ARE rodents.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            Frankly, I’d prefer the snake to the rats. Certainly I’d prefer a black rat snake to my local water snakes, cranky bastards that they are. But despite being northern water snakes, they are clearly the least chill of that genus.

    4. Antilles*

      I figured I would probably never hear from her again, but within a few minutes of sending off my email she called and left a voicemail urging me to call her back (…) I mean, it seems like she would have just responded to the email unless she didn’t want to put things in print.
      This is 100000000% what it is. She wants to verbally reassure you without providing any written documentation / proof of what was promised. Personally, any time I send an email and someone else replies via phone, my very next step after getting off the phone is to document that conversation via email “Just to follow up on what we’d discussed…”. Not even as a CYA measure, but just because people’s memories (including mine!) can get fuzzy.
      I’d bet that if you had sent an email like this, you would have gotten (1) an immediate panicked call asking why you felt it necessary to send it along with (2) an email reply to document their side of it which completely backtracks off what she’d verbally said.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would never EVER sign something legally binding that requires special knowledge or of the page interpretation to make it accurate. If a third party were to read it, would THEY know that all those caveats are in place? No, of course not. They’re going to interpret the agreement exactly by what’s on the paper. If it weren’t a big deal, it wouldn’t be a big deal to change it to be accurate to your situation. Do not sign that. I’d love for an employment lawyer to chime in, but in the absence of an official expert? No way.

    6. Veryanon*

      GUMPTION Girl sounds off her rocker. A check-in with the local police might be in order, since she’s trespassing. I’m dying to know why the scruffy guy was wearing an ascot, which is an item of clothing I’ve actually never seen anyone wear except Thurston Howell III (and yes, Fred from Scooby Doo).

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        She is extremely off. Probably harmless. But extremely off. I also discovered that we have a number of mutual FB friends, and after some discreet asking around I have discovered the following: 1) No one appears to like her, 2) Everyone thinks she is very crazy, 3) Even if she had a prayer of being hired, she would not pass the drug test, 4) My hair stylist, who may be the nicest and most chill guy alive and has never spoken poorly of anyone, upon hearing the stories realized that he also knew her. He immediately told me that she was, and I quote, “Both a terrible person and a terrible artist.” So. Good to know my instincts are correct?

    7. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      “she called and left a voicemail urging me to call her back so she could go over any concerns and also explain how standard the verbiage of the document is”

      Standard shmandard!

      Sounds to me like there’s no reason in the world for you to sign that paper. Doing so would only benefit them.

      1. Venus*

        I’m thinking “standard for this company as we want everyone to sign it, although we just wrote it up”

    8. Bee's Knees*

      1. Wolfram and Hart, absolutely.

      2. In teeny tiny print, at the very bottom of the page she is so desperate for you to sign, is the giving over of your immortal soul.

    9. nonegiven*

      Maybe tell them you expect your book deal to pay way more than $109, so thanks but no thanks!

    10. Darren*

      Oh I’m actually pretty sure the contract is perfectly standard, that doesn’t mean you want to sign it. I’ve had clauses removed or adjusted from numerous contracts because I don’t see any reason why I’d want to sign that, nor am I required to.

      For example I worked for a company and they updated their employment contracts a few years after I joined adding a bunch of clauses that negatively impacted me, and removing a number of clauses I’d initially negotiated in. The contract was indeed standard (it was identical for everyone) and I just point-blank refused to sign it saying there was no benefit to me for doing so so why would I do it. It’s not like they could do anything about it short of terminating me which they didn’t want to do, and I’m not even sure would have been legal anyway (in my country, but I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong about that).

    11. Troutwaxer*

      Like I said last week, I’d consult a lawyer at this point. I suspect they know just how badly they might be in trouble, and maybe they know something you don’t know, either about an event or about the law… but they desperately need to get everything locked down before they get sued, so are desperately trying to get everyone’s name on a piece of paper (The “we terminated you, not vice-versa” thing is a giant red flag.) So I would say again, consult a lawyer and see what you might be entitled to. (Or you could tell the vice-president something like, “I want ten-thousand dollars and the right wording about how I left you,” but that kind of demand really needs a lawyer.)

    12. CatCat*

      The VP is talking out of her ass and being pretty condescending. I’d block all calls and emails from her going forward.

    13. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      How…How has no one told gumption girl yet that she’s not getting hired? This feels like the archetypal AAM scenario of “I told (direct report/applicant) that maybe possibly they could make an effort to do less of the (incredibly problemy) thing they’ve been doing, why are they still doing the thing.”
      Does the manager usually avoid conflict? Did they have reason to think she would actually stop on her own? It’s just been…so many times she’s shown up…

  100. BigRedGum*

    Yesterday, my cowowker (I’ll call her Ginny) who is overloaded with work already, told me that she now has to start checking Fred’s work and George’s work to see if there is anything in it that pertains to her. She was just venting, and since her job is very specific, the rest of us don’t really understand what she does. Fred & George wouldn’t know if they had projects she needed to be in. I sympathize with her, and then our boss, McGonagall, shows up, so I head back to my own office.

    Later, my coworker Hermione asks why McGonagall went to Ginny’s office. I say I don’t know, but poor Ginny, they’re really dumping the work on her. We discuss her new work load for a minute, and hope that our office can hire another person.

    I go on about my business, until hours later, when Ginny shows up in my office mad! She says Hermione called Fred, who was working at home, to ask him about this. Apparently Fred didn’t know yet. Fred is prone to major anxiety and so Fred instantly called Ginny to find out why Ginny was taking over her work.

    I have apologized four time (overkill, yes) for saying anything. I explained that I did think it was common knowledge (or at least that Fred and George knew) and I was so, so very sorry. I said it would never happen again, and I would understand if Ginny didn’t feel like she could say things in front of me. We all get along very well so I felt extra bad. Ginny said she was more upset with Hermione and went to have a talk with her.

    Everything does seem fine, except that Ginny told three other coworkers who weren’t involved. I just feel so bad. I want to hide in my office.

    1. valentine*

      Ginny needs to learn to say, “Off the record.” But this is a meme:

      Ginny: How could you blab to Hermione?!
      Also Ginny: told three other coworkers who weren’t involved.

      At least you now know how extreme Hermione is.

      1. BigRedGum*

        true! i think it’s a good lesson for me in just not talking about other people, whether it seems harmless or not.

  101. Llama dancer romancer*

    I’n the poster that asked a few weeks back about asking a collaborator out in a date – I’m the dancing llama trainer, he’s the flying monkey circus ringleader, if anyone remembers the metaphor.

    Well, we held the ‘monkeys dancing on the backs of llamas’ event, I asked him out in a friendly and professional manner, he said no in a friendly and professional manner, and all was well. We’ve since communicated on a couple of bits of post-event paperwork, still in a friendly and professional manner.

    So thanks to all for your wisdom – I didn’t get the answer I wanted, but I think we’re both left with more respect for each other rather than less. And ironically, people at work noticed how much time and effort I put into the llama circus, and I’ve been praised for it.

  102. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

    A small irritation, but I wondered if commenters here any suggestions for dealing with people and teams who book out meeting rooms and then don’t use them? I’m not talking about the occasional ‘oops, I forgot to cancel’, but rooms being booked out in blocks, for long periods, or well in advance, the frustration of looking in the Outlook calendars, realising there are NO rooms available, and then walking past that very room finding it’s in darkness and unused. This is happening almost daily in our organisation now, and I just wondered how other organisations police this kind of thing? We use Outlook to book rooms.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Can you create a system that doesn’t allow a person to book a conf room for 2 weeks if they’ve reserved one and not used it? Or not being able to book for long periods any more?? The system is being abused badly.

      1. That'll happen*

        I feel like that system would require someone babysitting the conference rooms, which is probably not realistic.

        Outlook allows you to disallow recurring meetings, set a limit as to how far out rooms can be booked, set a meeting length limit, and even assign particular people to approve booking requests. You’d need to reach out to whoever is in charge of this to make changes. I know at my job you can’t book meetings out further than a year, and we limit meetings to 24 hours, but that’s it. We also only show free/busy on the room calendars, which helps stop people from harassing whomever has the room booked. Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but it works best for us to give only the site managers and certain C-level employees access to the meeting details.

    2. CrookedLily*

      Ooh… no advice here, but I’m afraid my manager is one of those. We have a standing bi-weekly team meeting booked, but that meeting only actually happens maybe once every three months, and never gets actually cancelled. I don’t think our conference rooms are in that high a demand, but I do agree it would be irritating and I do wonder how often people might try to book that room and can’t because of a meeting that’s not going to happen.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      The only thing I can think of is to email around to the people who have blocked rooms and see if they actually need it when you’re looking for a room and it’s already booked.

      “I have a very important meeting on the day you have the Green Room booked. Can you let me know if your meeting gets canceled or moved so I can use that room?”

      What a pain, though!! The only way I think is will actually change is if there becomes a keeper of the room who sends out reminds and confirmations and polices the ones who book and then don’t use.

    4. lemon*

      I think IT should be able to at least set up Outlook so that folks can’t book meeting rooms for weeks at a time. At Old Job, we were only allowed to create a recurring meeting for a room for 3-4 sessions in a row. The system wouldn’t let us schedule beyond that. Had to create a new recurring meeting and pick a new room.

      That could help a bit.

    5. Darren*

      The biggest issue is nothing really prevents this. You can reduce it with a bunch of tools (cancel meetings owned by people no longer at the company, limit how far in advance things can be booked, limit number of meetings people can have, limit recurring meeting durations) but by far the largest category can’t really be dealt with and that’s people that end up too busy/sick/etc on the day of a meeting they booked or are an important stakeholder of.

      Even if they remember to rebook it, it’s often too late for you to book your meeting anyway. My organisation goes with the only book important meetings, quick chats don’t need bookings, if the room is empty you can use it unless the person that booked it shows up.

    6. Anonymous Celebrity*

      This happened a lot at my former job. I would call the meeting organizer and ask if they were using the room on a particular date. If they were, so be it, I couldn’t use it. But sometimes people would forget to cancel a long-term meeting room booking after a project ended, and the room would be mine. Nobody ever took it amiss. Everyone understood the desperation of the meeting room hunt. And, no, I didn’t always know the meeting organizer personally; it was a huge campus, with about 6,000 people working there. I got such calls myself occasionally and would simply answer yes or no, never got huffy about it. It’s worth a shot!

  103. Sad Entitled Baby*

    Did anyone go through a quarter-life crisis regarding careers and money and all that?

    I’m a first-gen immigrant college student who grew up in poverty and I set the goal of going through college and med school to become a doctor in order to help my low-income, mostly uninsured community as a healthcare provider. Got through college with a good GPA and was competitive for med school but I spent some time working in a hospital as a CNA to save up money. But after working there, I got a stark reality check and decided that I would not pursue medicine anymore.

    Now I’m distraught, knowing that my Biology degree isn’t going to help me for anything outside of healthcare/biology. I’m looking for entry-office openings and feel ashamed to tell my parents that I’m applying for entry-level admin positions that pay $15/hr in a high COL area, after having spent so much time and sweat to make sure that I finished college without any loans. It’s hard to not be jealous of my old college friends who are doing so much better financially and career-wise.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation before? If so, how did you get out of this kind of funk?

    1. Blob*

      We all go through a crisis at some point. But always remember that you always have a choice. If you want to try an entry-level admin job, go ahead. You can later decide to go back to med school, if you feel like it, or get an other CNA job, or pursue an admin career. However, try to identify what is really making you unhappy. Sometime there are things in our direct professional environment that make us feel that it is our career itself which is not making us happy, whereas it can simply be the atmosphere of the site you work at, or the colleagues, or even other personal complications which are affecting our lives. In all cases, follow your guts ! And do whatever makes you comfortable. You are your own self, and do whatever you want to do regardless of what your family might think.

    2. Asenath*

      Take your time and force yourself to spend some time on keeping a roof over your head, some time working on what you might do longer term, and finding out how you can try out some options, and some time not thinking about it – relaxing, connecting with your family, however they react to your change in direction (they may be more worried about you than ashamed of you!) and trying out different hobbies or volunteering – anything other than brooding over your past ambitions and your worries about the future. That last part is REALLY important if you, like me, tend to focus rather narrowly on your lost dreams and your fear and uncertainty about the future. That sort of thinking can drive you even crazier than envying your old college friends, although that’s also generally something you need to turn your mind from in order to preserve your own state of mind.

    3. HappySharpie*

      A) You’re not entitled, and B) yes…quarter life crisis is a thing, especially as I finished gradschool in ’09 around the recession time and spent time in part time work and call center work. First of all…you need to re-tool your thinking…a BIOLOGY degree is absolutely relevant to lots of other things….I’m a liberal arts school grad and majored in psychology, and though I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist I’d say I use my degree a lot. In the “professional” world a lot of people aren’t using their specific degree field….but it can inform on their job every day. For example, I bet your biology degree prepared you to be organized, think critically, and learn how to report findings, look at problems both macro and microscopically, and synthesize ideas from other fields into what you’re doing (all things you’ll need in any job). I say look at the nonprofit field, do you like being hands on and teaching? If so there might be some programs at nature parks or in schools where your goal is to interest kids in science (not necessarily biology, but all the sciences). And it’s absolutely okay to take a break to figure out what path you want to pursue, and that’s how you can frame it to others. Heck you should be proud you made it through all that schooling without any debt! I thought I had to have it all figured out by 25…but that’s a myth. I’m in my thirties and pursuing pre-reqs so I can go to med school….and I look back and say…yeah I totally wasn’t ready for that at 22/23 (not that you can’t be…but I’m glad for the professional experience I’ve had between now and then and to grow as a person). Also, you might be burnt out on the medicine goal but if you ever decide to pursue it again I’d check out medical school HQ.net and they have a facebook community that’s really supportive, especially of non traditional and first gen folks.

      1. Mid*

        Yes to the thinking-outside-the-box about your degree thing!

        A biology degree can totally be relevant to other things!

        You could work as a legal assistant at a firm that does medical/science stuff (e.g. insurance suits, patents, intellectual property, environmental issues, etc.)
        You could work in science-writing!
        You could do community out-reach for medical clinics!
        You could work in health-related marketing!
        You could work in health insurance!
        And those are just the things that I can think of that would more or less directly use your degree. In a lot of jobs, any degree is good enough, because it shows you can get a degree. Biology has a lot of measuring, reading, writing, math, problem-solving, etc. Your degree shows you have all those skills. Your time as a CNA means good customer service skills, and you’re not afraid to do (literal) dirty work.

        Also, if you really don’t think you have any office-transferable skills, you can try working with a temp agency, which can get you a lot of skills rapidly, but at the risk of going without pay between placements.

        But also, I think you could probably apply for things above entry level. You have at least two years of full-time work experience, and a 4-year degree, plus a CNA. You have qualifications.

        1. Sad Entitled Baby*

          Thank you, I really appreciate this amazingly detailed response! I have found that I feel more comfortable with general admin work (thank you anxiety issues!) which led me to entry admin roles. But I’m not sure what I could apply to that isn’t entry-level and I would still be eligible for, other than admin assist I or receptionist, even with my 2 years of full-time work experience…

          1. A Person*

            I don’t know much about the admin field, but are there specialized admin positions? Maybe something like a medical office admin would be too close to the CNA world, but just typing “biological admin” into indeed gets interesting specialized jobs. Or maybe you aren’t ready for those yet, but they are something to look into in a year or two – a path you have out of entry level work in the long run!

          2. Wandering*

            Don’t forget environmental/conservation as an area where biology is a helpful background, plus all the public service depts (water, waste, highways [salt for snow, runoff in general]) too. Admin can be a great way to get a look at scope of work for organizations, & give you a sense of where your office-strengths & interests might lead you.

            There are lots of ways to contribute, finding ones that suit you is worth the time & effort. And you’re ahead of a lot of people by both graduating without debt and trying out medicine in the trenches before tackling medical school.

        2. nonegiven*

          I know two people with Biology degrees. One works at Sea World and the other is a 5th grade ESL teacher.

    4. Hope*

      Just remember, you’re in a much, much better position now than you would be if you hadn’t worked so hard to finish college without any loans. Obtaining a bachelor’s on your own without any loans following you is a sizable achievement in and of itself.

      Most importantly, you had the insight not to waste your time pursuing med school when you realized it wasn’t for you. You’d never have gotten that time back. So remind yourself of that–you’re better off doing what you’re doing now than if you had realized this a couple years into med school.

      You could look into teaching (some schools are really desperate for science teachers and will help you get the needed certifications, or at least waive them to give you enough time to obtain them). But there’s nothing wrong with entry-level admin. If I were you, I’d try to find entry-level admin jobs in companies that would have some tangential relationship to the sciences, because you could potentially more easily move into a better/higher-paying job that way.

      And also keep in mind that just because your old college friends *seem* to be doing better financially/career-wise doesn’t mean they actually are, or that they’re as happy as they might portray. Or, even if they are, that you would be happy in their shoes.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re not alone. You are NOT alone. I’m going to repeat it, you’re not alone.

      I have had this happen to close friends in recent years. They had great dreams of where med school would take them. Then they got into healthcare and it was awful soul sucking exhaustion, they went another direction. I’m so relieved that you have no loans though, my friends found out only after they had hundreds of thousands in loans to repay.

      So you are extra lucky and smart to have weeded this out before you went to med school even [if I’m reading right, it looks like you stopped your pursuit while in undergrad.]

      Lots of places don’t care if your degree is in, just as long as you have it anyways. So that’s a plus. It’s also going to still be more of a pull that you majored in science instead of say arts & literature.

    6. Anon for Obvious Reasons*

      We hire biology degree recent grads for chemistry lab positions. However we lowball them, too: $20/hr in a low COL area vs $25/hr for chem degrees. Just a thought. Better than admin work and after 3 years, few will care more about the degree than about your relevant experience.

      1. Sad Entitled Baby*

        Sadly I’m not a recent graduate (it’s been almost 3 years I think?) and I forgot everything about lab techniques. Unless your company provides hiring for wet-lab techniques? But thank you, it’s something I can consider.

    7. Sad Entitled Baby*

      Just wanted to thank everyone for the replies! It feels great knowing that this is kinda normal and that I do have a future, somewhere :) It’s very obvious in hindsight but it’s hard not letting anxiety and depression get a hold of you. Thanks again and hope y’all have a great weekend!

      P.S. I got out of medicine after graduating college and working for a few years. Which is why I got so saddened that I could only seem to get offers for $14-15/hr in LA of all places haha.

    8. A Person*

      I was similar, except a little farther through school. I got a Biology degree in the hopes of being a Scientist, spent 2 years as a lab assistant making a pretty meh salary, then a year in grad school before I promptly dropped out.

      At the time all I knew is that I wasn’t going to make it as a Scientist (long story). I spent the next year temping at all sorts of different jobs, but fortunately, like you, I didn’t have any student loans left at this point. I felt like I was starting from scratch, 3 years behind everyone else, with just a Biology degree.

      12 years later I’ve managed to piece together a career I could never have seen coming through luck, being open to trying lots of different things, and probably a little bit of smarts. I’m in a high paying field managing a team. It doesn’t need a “Biology” degree at all, but what I learned in college still helped me on the way (and checks off the degree box).

      Two major pieces of advice:
      1) To the extent you can, try a lot of things out! In the first few years after dropping out, I:
      – took an epidemiology class and almost ended up with a job in epidemiology
      – volunteered at a library to see if I wanted to be a librarian
      – volunteered with a sex positive hotline to see if I wanted to be in that sort of health field
      – took programming classes (turns out I love SQL which is SUPER important for my current career)
      – worked at a job at a hospital setting up healthcare software (they provided the training)
      Not only does it help you figure out “what do I want to do” but instead of concentrating on what you can or can’t do, or on the basic job you’re doing to pay the bills, you get to see the wide variety of things you might be interested in and start dreaming of a different future.

      2) Let yourself mourn
      Honestly, I still have days (rarely!) when I have to mourn my dream of being a scientist. You had a dream and there are plenty of good reasons you realized it’s not the right thing for you – but it’s completely understandable that you may still wish it worked out. Honor that and don’t get too down on yourself – especially right now. Feel your feelings.

      1. Sad Entitled Baby*

        I’m really glad it worked out for you, it helps to know that we Bio majors can make it somewhere :) For now, I’m hoping that these entry admin roles will help me figure out what I want to pursue.

        Would you mind going into more detail about SQL and your current career? I’ve started doing a python class online that I’m enjoying and was also interested in learning SQL and R for data because I enjoy working with numbers and more technical stuff.

        1. A Person*

          Oh definitely! I ended up in web analytics – understanding what people are doing on websites, running experiments, helping Product Managers decide what features to build next.

          I actually started as a SQL programmer running checks for clinical trials. Basically we’d get a list of rules / protocols for a study and then write programming checks against the database to make sure they were followed. Nowadays I think most trial software does things more automatically but there are still lots of jobs around dealing with clinical data management. I almost ended up doing that, but my next job was at a tech company doing analytics and I was basically hired because my boss wanted someone with a lot of SQL experience.

          Analytics / Data Science is a big name nowadays and it’s harder to break into – for someone who is new I often suggest looking at adjacent jobs where you’d get to start learning the tools (exactly like Python, SQL, R) as it can be hard to get that entry level job. Science majors definitely have an advantage because they are used to thinking in an analytical manner and usually have learned some basic statistics and experimental methods.

    9. Another Bio Grad*

      I was also the first person in my family to complete a university degree, and I definitely know what you’re going through! I chose a science major because all the advice I received indicated that it would have the best return on investment, as science grads were so in demand… and then the recession hit before my graduation. I spent a few years temping in various positions (and feeling angry at the world for not holding up its part of the “hard work will pay off” bargain), but everything did work out for me eventually. I’m currently using my degree working for the federal government as a pharmaceutical regulator. The pay is great and the benefits are amazing, but there are far more positions available (that pay much more) in the pharmaceutical industry, which may be something you could explore.

      Good luck, and be kind to yourself! I think you’re amazing to have already accomplished so much, and I know you’ll go far.

    10. Princesa Zelda*

      When I was about 20, I had to drop out of university. I couldn’t afford it, and I was working 60+ hours a week on top of being a full-time student. It just wasn’t sustainable. I had big dreams about law school and saving the world and they fell apart. My contract at the 60+ hours job wasn’t renewed, and I had to move back home. I was crushed and depressed and hopeless.

      What really helped pull me out was setting a clear, attainable goal. I was going to live in (nearby, relatively affordable) City by the end of the year. I got close, and when the year was up and I hadn’t actually moved, it was okay because I was chasing down job leads and had most of what I needed to move. I shifted the goal posts another year out and was able to move eight months later. While I worked at Retail Job in the small town my parents had moved to, I took free online classes and listened to history podcasts and watched hundreds of documentaries and read books in my second language. I volunteered at the local food bank. When I moved to City, I got a part-time job at a library since I like sorting and have extensive customer service experience, and stumbled into a field I think I’ll do well in and feel passionate about.

      It’s been nearly 4 years and I still feel lonely a lot and bad about myself sometimes, and I don’t have a lot of money or a career, but I know I’m doing the best I can. I know I dodged a bullet because law school just isn’t for me — and while my high school and college friends are better traveled and have achieved success and life benchmarks that I haven’t, that doesn’t mean that my experiences aren’t valuable. I make much better butter chocolate chip cookies than any of them, for a start, from all the stress-baking. ;)

      I hope that whatever path you go down next, it’s one that brings you happiness! It’s really hard to not go down the expected one, and it can be fraught and scary. I can’t guarantee you won’t look at your friends and feel bad about yourself in comparison. But try to remember that your friends’ success and your success don’t have to look the same. And try to remember that your success doesn’t even have to look like achieving your Childhood Goals and Dreams. It just means you made the best choices you could in the circumstances you had. And it sounds like you’re making a good choice for yourself not going to med school, even if it’s a hard one.

    11. Exhausted Educator Was Exhausted*

      Below you say that you graduated from college three years ago. How about getting in touch with a couple of former professors/advisers to do some brainstorming about alternative career options? Does your college offer any career services for alumni? Consider putting on your networking hat–it doesn’t have to feel natural, just think of it as your Career Investigator persona–and doing informational interviews with people who work in any field remotely possibly related to your degree and experience. It sounds as though you’re having trouble thinking of options for yourself, and this is where your network can help you (and surely will be happy to). You don’t have to figure it out all on your own.

    12. Troutwaxer*

      Maybe you could be a high-school science teacher? Or study programming. If you got a bio degree you’ve certainly got the math.

    13. big X*

      Look for research coordinator or program manager or project coordinator positions in a hospital. Office work that can still utilize your degree in some ways!

      You’re going through something very normal and you shouldn’t look at other people’s lives. There will always be someone in a better boat – heck, there will be dozens in a better boat. You just have to make sure you are satisfied in the boat you’re in and if you are not, try to spiffy it up to your liking. I make lists of things I have that I am grateful for and things I want. For the things I want, I start making plans in how I can get at them – it helps that I don’t have expensive tastes though.

  104. Tartini’s Thrilling Trills*

    I feel like I’m only useful as a person if I just focus on working. What I mean is as long as I focus on working at my job, career, etc, everybody seems to be satisfied with me.

    (It’s the same with hobbies too, but this is work-related, so I’ll stick with work.)

    If I go beyond what I’m good at, actually try to enjoy my work, build camaraderie, try to make meaning at my job, somehow, it just doesn’t work. I’ve noticed this over time. Like, once people get what people need from me, then that’s it.

    It feels like as long as I focus on my work, career, whatever the task is, people don’t have problems with me. But beyond that, I feel like everything else about me isn’t workable. I’ve shut down everything, except what I’m supposed to do, and in the end, I end up being a quiet employee who does the work, school, and then goes home.

    I guess what I mean is, I feel very detached from everything that is expected of me, because it just feels like I can’t get anything meaningful out of it if people just keep taking from me.

    1. Mrs_helm*

      I think I know what you’re getting at. But what sticks out here is a lot about “other people’s” expectations, satisfaction, and getting what they want. Step 1 is to know if those are purely THEIR expectations and do you actually agree with those? Because maybe you’re wasting energy living up to someone else’s standards and not your own? Step 2 is to decide what your own standards/priorities are. At some point you have to decide to do a thing because it is what YOU want, or what YOU expect of yourself (your standards), or YOUR calling or whatever. If other people don’t respond to it, well…I know that sucks, but YOU still get to be the best YOU. Other people may not appreciate it…but that says more about them than it does about you.

      Am I day ng you should quit all that and go find yourself? No – that’s impractical! But figure yourself out, and carve out space in your life to truly be you, no other opinions considered.

  105. Bloopmaster*

    Happy Friday! I want to give a shout-out to my awesome, exemplary co-workers this week:

    I’m five months pregnant and I’m sure it’s been increasingly obvious to everyone for a couple of months now. But, to their immense credit, none of them said anything! Not a peep!–until after I officially informed them earlier this week. No weird comments. No “don’t you have something to share with us?” No treating me differently at all! Their post-reveal comments were all very appropriate too :D

    Even my boss (who I had informed earlier, to arrange maternity leave) didn’t tell a soul!

    This is how you do it people! I’m so glad to have such respectful coworkers!

  106. Fishsticks*

    I had to request time off for a surgery pretty early on into my new job and it was approved! I should have a decent vacation balance but not enough to fully cover it by the date so they are letting me go into a deficit and I might be able to remote work!

    Just an exciting thing I wanted to share. Also! Thanks to everyone who’s given me advice on a cross country job search. I found a position and have been there 2 weeks as of today. I also got a 12k salary bump from my last position so it’s very exciting!!

  107. Another analyst*

    When it comes to confidence, I’m totally a “fake it till you make it” kinda person. I think that I’m good at being articulate and clear, looking people in the eye, sounding cheerful, etc. However, I recently had an encounter where I had to confront a coworker over mistakes in his work. We’ve had this conversation numerous times before, so I guess I was feeling frustrated/nervous that my message would be brushed off again.

    Turns out, I have a big tell. My words and tone were calm, but he pointed out that my face was turning red! I don’t know what to do about this when it seems like I can’t control it. I’m worried about how this may be playing out in other situations where I’m nervous and trying to act confident, but my face is giving me away.

    1. Alianora*

      No advice, just sympathy. I have an issue with blushing at random times and it definitely makes me seem like I’m nervous when I’m not. (Weirdly, I rarely turn red when I’m actually nervous or mad.) My voice also cracks a lot and I think it’s pretty undermining. Doing what I can to stay hydrated and all that, but it only helps so much.

      How did your coworker react?

      1. valentine*

        I randomly feel flushed, but don’t know if my face changes color. Tell him it’s something that happens randomly and says nothing about how you feel.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      It’s fine. It’s management, not poker. As long as you remain otherwise calm and stay on message it will rarely matter. Every now and then some jerk-face will point out that you are “blushing.” Just say ,”thank you,” and get right back on topic. It’s okay for your coworker to have a heads up that this is a serious conversation here.

  108. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I started a side gig pet sitting rather than doing Instacart shopping. But oh man, the coworkers are going to be weird! Fully expect to get pooped and puked on.

    My furry coworker at home likes to sit on my chest between me and the laptop. What is the strangest thing your animal coworkers have done? Or you can tell a coworker story and I can guess if they are human or not!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My coworker is a senior citizen and retired, but she just keeps insisting on spending all her time in the office. Asleep. And she snores. Plus she keeps letting the competition in when I’m not looking to hang out.

    2. superveganpowers*

      I sadly do not have any furry people in my life (damn you allergies!) but a friend enjoys blaming her furry coworker for low productivity due to the coworker’s need for snuggles and headpats.

      Also, do you mind if I asked how you started pet sitting? SO wants to find a side job to supplement his main job and has already been burnt out by Instacart/Lyft/Uber. He loves animals but can’t seem to find anything other than dog-walking which gives him the weirdest hours and locations.

    3. Auntie Social*

      Last applicant said she was a great exec assistant—but all she does is sleep on the desk and play with the mouse. . . .

    4. Liane*

      My coworker gets his own company-provided lunch and snacks. Coworker frequently leaves his lunch partly uneaten and blatantly begs us to give him our lunches. At the same time he invades our personal spaces, by crowding between our chairs or even blocking/tripping up while we head to the breakroom table. Coworker is very sweet and kind, has a cheerful demeanor, & does his job very well. It would be a serious blow to morale and the business as a whole if he moved on. So we don’t want to hurt his feelings.
      Scripts, please.

    5. Nicki Name*

      Last time I worked from home, my newest co-worker insisted I throw his favorite toy so he could fetch it many, many, many times, and then started biting random parts of the desk when I didn’t throw the toy again quickly enough.

      (A cat, actually, not a dog.)

      1. Wren*

        One of mine pees on the rugs at least once a day. She also bit a temp and I had to pay $200 for a visit to urgent care. She is cute and very good at her major duties (snuggles, entertainment) but I am thinking that she needs a training course rather than relying on the other company owner to teach her the ropes.

    6. Can't Sit Still*

      He sits nearby so he can supervise my work but then he falls asleep! He also complains about the office temperature all the time because he’s either too hot or too cold. And if I’m as much as a minute late, he reminds me of the importance of punctuality. He also tries to drink out of my cup when I’m not looking. He is very handsome, though, so at least he’s nice to look at.

    7. Anon Librarian*

      My co-worker is SPOILED. I just cooked him a BIG hamburger for lunch and now he’s whining because he wants to be cuddled and told how great he is. Before I gave him the burger, he was treated to a walk in the woods and a game of Ball. He says he’s bored and he doesn’t get enough attention.

      He’s a security guard and fitness coach. We work together to keep our home safe, to keep each other safe, and to keep each other in peak physical condition. I coordinate and plan the workout activities (provide the transportation, materials and ideas). He handles timing, motivation, and the entertainment factor – humor and cute antics.

      He also helps with networking and customer service at my actual side business. He’s a wonderful business partner. Probably the more instantly likeable of the two of us. He just keeps demanding more benefits.

    8. NoLongerYoung*

      My furry coworker rarely barks, but brings the squeaky toy for the exercise, and is in charge of getting me up and moving regularly on my WFH days. Additionally, when I am not working from home, has the responsibility of making me get home in time to save the rug from any accidents.

      Coworker refuses to work independently; and must be as close as possible to me. Has no notion of personal space.

      Also, is cute enough that the picture is an icebreaker. When others whip out baby pictures, I’m ready with coworker pictures. I have bonded with a broad variety of coworkers who appreciate coworkers like mine who have been rescued from less congenial surroundings.

    9. Earthwalker*

      Cat was happy staying out of my office and hanging around my husband all day unless Husband stepped out for a hardware store run. Then Cat would come down into my office and look at me with big round eyes and tell me in detail how the man we loved was GONE, and we’d been left ALONE, FOREVER, and we were going to DIE, and oh, woe! He would sit wailing just out of my reach, as I tried to look unflustered on a conference call, for as long as it took to for Husband to drive into town, buy a paintbrush, and return. Then Husband would open the front door and Cat would give me a silent “never mind” look and trot back upstairs. This happened every time my husband left to run an errand while I was working at home.

    10. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I used to pet sit. (I got out of it because I realized I did not enjoy hustling for new clients all of the time and would prefer a job with less relentless self-promotion.)

      Three of my favorite stories (all different co-workers):

      I once had a small co-worker who was always looking for ways to get and stay warm. The first morning when I went in to check on her, I thought I’d lost her somehow because when I looked in her bed all I saw was her blanket. It turns out that she’d figured out how to take the corner of a blanket in her mouth and completely wrap herself in it by turning in a circle, which was pretty adorable once I stopped panicking.

      One of my much larger co-workers would ask to go out in the backyard each morning, but if I didn’t go out too he’d just sit on the deck right outside the glass door and stare at me. I tried to explain “waiting for the coffee” to him, but he didn’t need coffee in the mornings and didn’t understand that not everyone was a morning person like him. (He also didn’t understand that not everyone was a “run through the sprinklers” person like him. He had a good heart but didn’t always understand that different people like different things.)

      I had another co-worker make a Daring Break for Freedom once and run down three flights of stairs and around the apartment building so he could have a sniff. He then let himself be caught easily because he really would rather be carried back up the three flights of stairs now.

    11. Quinoa*

      My most recent coworker, who is sadly no longer with me, used to jump onto my shoulder and yell in my ear when I was not paying enough attention to important issues (a.k.a. being adored and petted). I miss what she brought to the job, and am currently developing a job description to bring in a couple more coworkers.

  109. Sopranistin*

    Just feeling down because I’ve gotten zero response after a job interview.
    I had a phone interview, then was invited to the in-person interview. Met with 3 people: the boss and 2 would-be coworkers. They said they were meeting a handful of candidates. I thought it went well and was feeling cautiously optimistic.
    But to receive no response at all after meeting in person seems so rude. They just leave me in this limbo wondering what happened…

    1. wingmaster*

      I feel you. I did two rounds of interviews with this one company in early July. Fast forward to this week, I get an interview invite for the third round. 5 weeks after my second!

    2. Ann O.*

      It’s common. I had that happen with an interview where I my in-person was identical to yours and then I had a follow-up with a remote team. It’s been several weeks ago when they said they were trying to hire quickly, and I’ve heard nothing.

      It’s frustrating because it would be nice to get some feedback about whether I did a poor interview (definitely dropped the ball on some questions!), whether it was simply having a stronger candidate, or whether it was about deciding to go in a certain direction with the job role. But what can you do?

      It does seem like it shouldn’t be hard to at least send a form email to all candidates who did an onsite saying thank you for your time, but we’ve chosen someone else.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You don’t mention how long it’s been since your interview but it’s possible they haven’t finished their first round of interviews if it was within the last 1-2 weeks. So you may still hear back from them.

      On your side, it’s going by so slow and painfully because you want an answer ASAP. Whereas the other side is in the crunch of having to keep interviewing and evaluating many candidates at once. So 2 weeks isn’t abnormal and sometimes even 3-4 weeks depending on the position isn’t either. But if it’s been longer than a month, then yeah, they’re rude AF I agree!

  110. Finally a Fed*

    Another lament for slow government hiring processes.

    A quick recap – last year I was ecstatic to finally be hired into the agency I had been a contractor at for 10 years, was quickly blindsided by a conflict of interest with spouse’s job, left the agency for an industry job (same company as spouse’s), realized that company was a disaster and so was thrilled when a different location for my agency asked me to come work for them. I applied for the open position in mid-June, interviewed in mid-July and received an initial offer only a couple of weeks later. Now I am just waiting for the approvals on the details of my hiring requests – beyond requesting a higher step and increased vacation, I also requested to start in a remote locality with agreement to move within a certain period of time and a hiring bonus to help cover those moving costs. I reached out to the HR person who indicated that some of the requests need approvals/signatures from managers above the hiring manager and it’s just taking time. She hoped she would have the firm offer ready next week.

    All things considered, the timeline is not too bad for government, but I am so BEC with my current job. The executive leadership makes the job almost unbearable on a daily basis. I so badly just want to put my two weeks notice in on monday, but it seems overly risky. I need a mantra to get me through the next month or so!

      1. Finally a Fed*

        I’m being hired at GS-13 and I asked for Step 10. I was previously hired at a GS-14/4 so the 13/10 is almost equivalent. They pulled my previous HR record and there was no fuss about the 13/10.

  111. voyager1*

    Question: Supervisors, Bossess, Managers, C-Suites, Etc

    You have a peon employee who works for one of your managers that reports to you. He tells you that he knows for a certain that the manager lies to him about things and he has no trust in her about anything.

    What would you do? How likely would you take a verbal accusation with no proof? Would it matter what the lies were?

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I can’t say I really like the way the entire question is phrased, as it is a bit…leading? Feels very oddly vague to me. The choice of words really isn’t helping it.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              That makes a lot more sense. The joking tone wasn’t really coming across via text, sorry!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Not a fan of the word either but I’m reading it as an “asking for a friend. BTW I’m that friend” kind of way and reading it as a disparaging remark. More so than thinking that voyager1 is disrespecting someone on a lower level than they are.

        Sounds like “Can I complain about my lying manager, will their manager take me seriously?” kind of cloaked question to me but I’m in a funky mood and defaulting to “benefit of the doubt” here.

        1. voyager1*

          That has been my fear, it will be just seen as “complaining.” But when someone tells you they have reviewed work even to the point of involving another manager (it wa an elaborate story)… and you speak to said other manager and she says none of that happened. It is jarring a bit to one’s trust.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            In a healthy functional department, you should not be afraid that your reports of misbehavior and lies by the manager are not going to be taken seriously.

            If we as managers/execs/seniors blindly trust each other, then we’re creating a huge blindspot. Not just for misbehavior that you’re describing but what about if a supervisor were harassing one of the junior employees?! There should be an environment that encourages feeling safe to speak up.

            Sadly it’s not always the case of course, some are toxic and will just take the side of whomever they think is more “important” but it’s not the right way it should be handled.

            I would just make sure I have documented incidents. Like the one you’ve shared here and others that I’m sure exist as well. Just don’t be super vague when reporting the behavior because the more vague it is, the more likely the executive will be uncertain of if it’s really a thing that’s happening or just miscommunication that’s now being escalated into an accusation of lying.

            Not telling a full truth in some instances, say if it’s more like not giving full answers because it’s none of your business/privacy issues is one thing. However if they’re lying in ways like this, that directly impact your work and can bottleneck your work or create other issues along the way, that will then in turn fall on you, are worth reporting. If someone said “Oh I gave it to Jenny” and Jenny is like “What, no she didnt…” then it’s time to also try to lowkey call your manager out with a “I asked Jenny for the report and she said she doesn’t have it…did you give it to someone else and mix up the names perhaps?” and watch how their wheels spin.

            Also if you have proof they didn’t review it, they give it back to you with glaring errors right there, you can also say “Oh oops, I see there are still some mistakes right here, would you like to review this again?” [I would go with the lowkey pushing back at the lies you’re uncovering and see if that helps at all but report them to someone else if you see that basically saying “gurl I see you over there lying to me, stawp.” and it doens’t go anywhere]

    1. Not Me*

      I would ask what makes him think she’s lying to him, for a start. If he knows “for certain” then he should be able to give you specifics you can look into.

      It would matter to me what the lies are, some things are a bigger deal than others. For example, did she say she stopped for coffee on the way into the office but he knows for sure she actually had tea? Or did she tell him that his performance isn’t up to standards and he’s going to be fired, but he knows for certain that isn’t the case and she’s just trying to scare him?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would always take anyone seriously and ask them to clarify with examples of what’s going on. Then I would investigate it. You should never write off anyone, regardless of where they are in the organizational chart.

  112. HereKittyKitty*

    I just wanted to say that I got a new job! It took 4 months, and about 300 applications but it finally happened! I was very underpaid at my current job, but my new job gave me a salary beyond my expectations- resulting in a 37% pay increase! I start in two weeks!

    Thank you for this community which has answered my questions and supported me this summer!

  113. BlueAnon*

    Getting slightly ahead of myself, but I’m in final round for a job that is 100% remote. While I have the flexibility to work from home at my current job, my longest single span has only been a week. Any tips for transitioning from office to 100% remote? Or must-haves for the remote home office?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      – Make sure you have a good chair. I had a chair but it sucked and my sciatica suffered for the first three weeks.
      – Set boundaries. It’s so easy to start early and finish up late. Nope. I boot up my computer no earlier than 8:20 and shut it down no later than 6, unless there’s a meeting or I’m on a roll. (My office’s hours are 8:30-5:30.)
      – Take breaks. I have a dog, so I’m basically required to walk him for 20 minutes every afternoon, but it also forces me to get out of the apartment. I also try to eat my lunch in another room.
      – If you can, work from other spaces occasionally. My apartment building lobby is great for this, but an hour or two at a bookstore or coffee shop can be a nice change of scenery.

      I’ve been working full-time remote for a couple of months now. Granted, I was in the office for several years before that, so it’s a bit different, but I’m enjoying the flexibility I have now. And the use of my own bathroom.

    2. Quinoa*

      I’m sorry I can’t be any more specific than this, but about six months ago there was another open thread question about something similar. And one thing that stuck with me was one commentor who said her husband kept his daily commute when he switched to remote work. He would get up, get ready for work, leave the house, take a brisk walk and return home to begin working. He did the same thing at the end of the day so that he had clear beginning and end points to his workday. I love that idea. If I ever have the opportunity to work remotely myself, I think I will be putting it into place.

  114. NylaW*

    I’m a woman currently working as a teapot analyst, an industry group which skews heavily towards men. Our team is very small. Our teapot team works very well together and even though I’m the only woman, I absolutely do not get that vibe from either the admin or teapot officer. They have both been extremely supportive and have spoken very favorably about my work. I’m the only analyst, then there is an teapot admin who isn’t my supervisor but has some authority over the program, and another contracted teapot officer. We’ve been lamenting for some time that we need more people to advance the program as we are all three quite overworked. We have previously discussed putting a position in the budget for next year and what things might look like if we got another person.

    Recently an coffeepot engineer, Bob, expressed an interest in teapots. His interest sparked a discussion among management, that I was not a part of, but was told about later. The decision has been made to convert his coffeepot engineer role to a teapot analyst. This is easier than asking for a new position, because there is no change to the number of FTEs in the overall department.
    But I have reservations about this. I haven’t worked with Bob all that directly, just some one off tasks and discussions as my group passes tasks and things to his, and some group lunches, which happen about every other Friday. My overall impression of Bob as an engineer is okay. He seems knowledgeable, but he has made comments that have bothered me and that come across and the lesser of the standard type of sexist things you hear as a woman in tech. Some examples are him complaining about the manager of the engineers, who is a woman, “nagging” him and the other engineers about projects and tasks, or not liking that she will sometimes walk through their office area to see who is around.
    I worry that adding Bob to the mix will significantly change the dynamic, and that his attitude could be a little toxic on a long term basis where I am working much closer with him. I’m also concerned about how he will work with me given what I’ve heard him say about the director, and given that I will be expected to be his mentor. I have more experience in teapots than he does and I will be taking a significant teapot certification next month that will bring both additional pay and responsibilities for me.

    I’m not sure how to address this with my boss, the director, or the other two members of my team. I don’t want it to come across like I’m trying to sabotage Bob’s move. It might work out fine, but my initial impression of him is that he’s okay over there, in another group, away from me where I only interact with him on a limited basis, but I’m not keen on having to mentor him and working with him much more closely. I’m also bummed that this decision was just made and I got no input. If the new position had happened, rather than this position conversion they are doing, I would have been able to be involved in the review of candidates and the interviews, and had much more of a direct say.

    1. Havarti*

      Do you have a good relationship with your boss? If yes, you could say something like “I’m really glad we’re getting another person in here to help. I haven’t worked with Bob a lot but he seems knowledge. However, I’ve heard him make a few comments that makes it sound like he’s perhaps not a fan of women working here. I’d be happy to mentor him but I want to know that you’ve got my back in case it becomes a problem down the road.”

      But the fact all this was done without your input has me leaning towards keeping quiet and documenting any bad behavior Bob engages in so you can establish a pattern if it, indeed, becomes a problem.

      1. Darren*

        It being done without her input is unfortunately common. There was a role that needed filling, and someone interested in filling it internally that seemed a good fit to the managers involved and often that’s the level these decisions get made at with no real input from the actual team.

        Given the need for extra help, and her new certification and extra responsibilities coming down the line they probably assumed there would be no problem with it.

        Now if you do have concerns I would raise them with your manager now, but do be clear that you want this to succeed as much as anyone, but you want to make sure that your manager has your back if necessary.

  115. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    The job that was moving quickly last week says they’re checking references this week, and if everything works out, next steps are an offer. Fingers crossed y’all–that would be the BEST wedding present ever!

  116. Daydreaming*

    I always am an hour late in finding this post being posted! :)

    Question:
    How do you determine what you can do for a home-based business?
    Background:
    I am new to the area I’m living in. Have been here for a year and a half, but don’t have a huge network. First job here turned out to be a very negative workplace and I left in March. Started a new job in April – a job with lots of potential, but it isn’t turning out to be what I was hoping it would be. I would love to start my own business, but am unsure how to do so when I don’t have a big professional network here. My background is journalism, PR, communications and fund development.

    Any advice or suggestions?

    1. Mrs_helm*

      1. Check local ordinances. Some will have restrictions about the kind of equipment or amount of client traffic. You want them know that going in.
      2. Brainstorming where your skills and interests meet, and narrowing in. People often think very broadly “photographer” because they think they’ll get more customers. But there’s more profit as “pet photographer who captures dog’s expressions” or “freeze frame sports photographer who captures air time”.
      3. Market research. (Sounds like you should already know what that is…apply it to figuring out if there is a market for the business ideas you come up with.

      Then I’d seek out some forums or FB groups where customers of that business idea are likely to be, to get a sense of if your business is needed and if the price range is reasonable. Maybe do a few test offers (because “yes that’s a good price” is not the same as “I will spend money on that”).
      Maybe make a business plan, crunch some numbers to do a sanity check, maybe create an LLC and run it as a side-gig for a while. Stuff like that.

      People will suggest apps like Fiver, but there you’re competing with lowest price for lowest payers. If you just need side cash, that’s fine. But to start a business that earns profits, you want to develop a name/reputation of your own.

    2. tab*

      Contact the SBDC (Small Business Development Center) near you. They will give you free help to set up your business. I met with one of their consultants once a month for the first two years of my business. It was *very* helpful.

  117. Anona*

    Work has been SO busy this week, with lots of extra after hours work. Currently trying to get through my responsibilities for the day. It’s hard to be tuned in when I’m so tired!

  118. FirstTimer*

    I’ve been reading older posts concerning professional appearance and found one that said false eyelashes aren’t very professional. The post was a few years old so what I would like to know, given the increase in lash extensions and false eyelashes in general, are they still seen as unprofessional? I love wearing them but have not done so for a while and would like to start again but worry about how I’m perceived. To be clear, these aren’t super long, obvious lashes, just more noticeable than my natural (short and stubby) lashes.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I think that the issue with the older falsies was that they were super Big Lashes, so it would be very obvious that you were wearing falsies. A lot of the newer ones just look like nice mascara’d lashes, so I don’t think you really would have anyone able to tell that you’re actually wearing falsies. I say go for it!

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I think it’s one of those things where if they’re super obvious and over the top, they might not be appropriate for all offices, but I personally don’t see anything wrong with a little boost. I don’t wear make-up super often but every once in a while I like to bust out my falsies and I don’t think you can really tell that I have false eye-lashes; it just looks like I found a banging mascara.

    3. Peaches*

      I don’t find this unprofessional at all, especially since you note these aren’t super long, obvious lashes. If you were walking around with drag queen-like eyelashes in an office job, then sure, but what you’re referring to sounds perfectly acceptable.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      I saw a trial attorney do it for weeks and I only noticed when I introduced myself. My conclusion was it can be effective and professional for presentations and the like.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It would depend on your industry a lot. It would depend on what they deem is professional for makeup in general. If you’re in an ultra conservative setup or if you’re in one of the industries where you want to avoid being too overly feminine due to the fact that you’re dealing with a bunch of good ol’ boy stuff, then they’d probably be not a great idea professionally.

      If it’s acceptable to have bolder makeup and modern-style, than false eyelashes are not less professional than coloring in your eyebrows or lash extending mascara in my opinion.

      It’s the difference between looking polished with a “pop” and looking like Mimi on Drew Carey, you know what i mean? I shouldn’t know your lashes are fake, I can’t tell in most situations unless they’re inappropriately sized or like dimestore style ones.

      They’re like fake nails. You can do them right and they just look like someone has long nails or you can do them over the top and they are obviously fake and that can read as tacky/unprofessional

    6. Mid*

      I know a lot of people who regularly get eyelash extensions, and it doesn’t seem unprofessional, as they look quite natural (I only notice because I see them before and after said extensions.)

      So natural-looking false lashes should be fine. Especially if they’re worn consistently.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      If you look like you are wearing a costume, or dressed up specifically to go to an extremely non-work event (clubbing, a black tie gala, the gym, hunting in the woods, whatever) it’s inappropriate for most office jobs. That’s the same for clothes, shoes, makeup, etc.

      If you look like a slightly more polished version of your normal work mode, it’s fine.

  119. anonagain*

    I have several questions:

    1. I found a job ad that asks for a resume and 250 words answering a “tell us a time when” type question. Should I still write a separate cover letter or is the 250 words all they are looking for?

    2. Should my cover letters address my current unemployment/resume gap and what I have been doing in that time? (I’ve been out of work for over a year at this point.)

    3. My resume has a work experience section and a volunteer experience section. How can I highlight the volunteer work in my field when my other volunteer work isn’t as directly related (e.g. STEM programs for kids vs pro bono statistical analysis)?

    I appreciate any advice or suggestions.

    1. Alianora*

      In my experience employers typically want written responses in lieu of a cover letter. However, given the gap in employment I do think it’s worth writing a cover letter to address that proactively. Nothing defensive, just giving them a narrative that makes sense (what you’ve been doing and how it makes you a good candidate for the job).

    2. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Instead of a “work experience section” and a “volunteer experience section”, why not have a “Relevant Experience Section” that highlights all the work you’ve done (paid and unpaid) that’s relevant to the position. This is what I do, because I’ve been able to take on much higher level work in a volunteer capacity than I’m paid to do at my normal job. Then relegate the non relevant jobs to “additional experience” just so they know you’ve been employed continuously, etc.

  120. Environmental Compliance*

    Well, DR no longer reports to me! I am excited to go back to being a technical expert.

    However, all that has happened is that “since I complain so much”, DR is being moved to the original manager, who has also been told that they are not allowed to do any disciplinary action. So that solved….not really anything.

    1. valentine*

      So they don’t care about this guy breaking the law and costing the company thousands of dollars?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Apparently. Original Manager and I report to the same Boss, so I’m not that surprised nothing changed there.

        I’ve encouraged OM to go to HR/Corporate the same as I have. We are up to $7500 in fines so far.

        So personally, I’m glad I don’t have to manage any people, as I really like just being a technical person…. but this has not really decreased any compliance headaches for me, because there’s *still* no actual action going on to stop the noncompliance events.

  121. All a-Bach that Bass*

    Long-time silent reader, first-time commenter! I am going through a career switch and geographical move all at once, and I just wanted to share that I’m feeling positive and excited for the first time in the whole process. I was a music teacher for seven years, but am hoping to become an instructional designer. After a discouraging few weeks of sending my resume into the void, I made the decision to get educated! I took a two-day workshop on ID technology, and signed up for a MOOC that starts next week. So while I may be working at temporary jobs that aren’t my favorite, I feel like I am doing something proactive to get me towards my end goal. I’ve been mentally logging so much advice from this site as I’ve gone job hunting, I’m just looking forward to the day it pays off!

    1. Collette*

      Something that may be relevant: certification is becoming more and more important in the instructional design field. You may get more traction if you have some kind of instructional design certificate.

  122. Alianora*

    So, bonuses: what are your opinions on them?

    I got one this week that’s about 1.7% of my annual salary. I was pretty happy with it because I’m only about 8 months into my job. To be honest, the praise means more to me than the money.

    I am wondering, though, how this fits into eventually making the case for a raise (not immediately, of course!) On the one hand, it’s proof that I’m making valuable contributions and performing well. On the other hand, I wonder if this pushes the clock back on when it would be appropriate to ask for more money. Any thoughts or advice?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Bonuses are the easiest, least expensive way to compensate someone. They’re easier to handle since they’re on a one-time basis. Unlike salary, which you don’t roll back unless your organization is an awful messy one.

      You shouldn’t be using them as reason not to ask for a raise, they are not a raise and are in their own category.

      You’re 8 months in. So if you don’t have a 1 year review, you should think about using that time to really advocate for yourself for a raise. A lot of places will offer bonus structures instead of doing raises above COLA but others do both.

  123. Swaying in the Boat*

    As the newest person in the team, how much can you push back? At my last position, I was miserable because I was too afraid to push back against false claims or misunderstandings from the rest of the staff. And even when I did talk back to try to smooth out an issue, they’d reply with more aggression which caused me to become even more terrified of speaking up. Thankfully, I’ve gotten a new position and the manager seems to be kind and approachable unlike ex-boss. Yet I still don’t know when I’m being too much by “rocking the boat” as the new person if I were to speak up too much or if I’ll end up in a similar situation where I get hit with accusations and don’t do diddly squat about them.

    For reference, the false claims and misunderstandings from old job weren’t huge in terms of importance but I could tell that my ex-boss and coworkers started to see me in a negative light from them. For example, a misunderstanding was that I was that I dropped the ball on the llama washing because I supposedly can’t multitask my duties. The reality was that I was late to finish the llama washing by 15 minutes because our meeting went over by almost an hour. Or that I didn’t enjoy doing llama drawings because I didn’t seem super enthusiastic about it, when in reality I was feeling sick that day and was tired from the previous activities.

    1. Alianora*

      In a non-toxic environment, you should almost always be able to gently correct objectively false claims.

      For the “dropping the ball” thing, I would probably talk to my boss and say, I’m sorry that I was late with the llama washing. Our meeting ran over and I misjudged my priorities. Next time, should I excuse myself from the meeting when we bump up against the limited time?

      For the “you seem unenthusiastic” issue, I would say to my coworker, “oh, do I seem that way? I’m just tired, I actually really enjoy doing llama drawings. “

  124. wanting to move on*

    I’m a finalist for a role I’d be really excited to get at another company, but they’ve reached the stage of wanting to talk to references to make their decision between final candidates. And the only supervisor reference I have is my current one, since this is the only job I’ve had in my adult life thus far. I’m really afraid of talking to my supervisor because although she WANTS to be the kind of person who’s kind and caring about her employees, she’s….not always, and she will 100% feel angry and betrayed about me possibly leaving her company. And so I’m worried she might end up giving a reference that’s not quite as positive as I would need a reference to be, because of her feelings about me leaving.

    This is of course complicated by the fact that my current supervisor out of the country right now on a work trip so I can’t have the conversation in person, and she tends to be better with verbal conversations than with writing.

    I HAVE A LOT OF NERVES RIGHT NOW, as I prepare to send this reference request email to her!

    1. new kid*

      Are there other people at your current company who are familiar with your work and would pose less of a risk if you don’t get the job? I would start there, honestly. I never gave a current manager reference even when leaving my first ever job.

      But either way, good luck!! Hope you get it!!

      1. wanting to move on*

        I work at a 3-person company counting me so………not really, given that the new place wants 3 references including someone who’s been a supervisor. This is something I’ve been agonizing about for years, that if I ever want to leave this company I’m going to really struggle for references. I’ve thought about trying to get some sort of volunteer gig just to get a supervisory reference, but my job is so stressful that I don’t have the energy in the evenings to do other work. So. We’ll see how this goes.

        Thanks for the good wishes!

  125. Polo Wearer*

    I’ve been holding onto this for a while – is it inappropriate to wear branded polos/apparel from a previous job to work? My current job very generously buys us new apparel 2-3 times a year and I’ve got a decent stock of polos and cardigans. Now I’m starting to search for a new job, and I’m just wondering if I should plan on buying a ton of new clothes when I leave or just some. I definitely wouldn’t wear old branded apparel if I was at a front desk or in meetings or otherwise doing things besides just a normal day at an office, and I wouldn’t want to wear it frequently, but I just have enough that I don’t want to give it all up and recreate my wardrobe.

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      It’s inappropriate, but there is no reason that you can’t cover the brand up with some other neutral patch.

      1. House Tyrell*

        ^^ You definitely can’t wear old branded apparel to a new job, but you can order patches to sew over the brands, like your monogram or maybe a patch of your state or even get the logo of you new company made into a patch and sew that over.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        You could also just add your own embroidered touches until the logo is covered/no longer obvious, maybe picking out a few parts of the old embroidery as well as just stitching over it depending on density. Embroidery is a pretty easy hobby to pick up – just start with your least favorite branded polo and work your way up so the ones you like better will be the ones that look the best.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      If it was a direct competitor, never wear it.

      Otherwise, be very limited. We have a guy who wears stuff from his old employer. That company is a client of ours, not a competitor, but I know there are a few senior management types who will grumble about this guy wearing his OldJob clothes and have said stuff to him about it.

    3. Construction Safety*

      I do, but my current company hasn’t supplied (literally) any apparel despite asking 4 times for sizes.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      If it’s embroidered on, you could try carefully removing the embroidery. It might still show though.

    5. Antilles*

      Yes, it is inappropriate.
      Remember the purpose of the company paying for and giving out branded apparel: It’s a marketing tool. They may treat it like a reward or a thank-you (and it might be!), but at heart, the reason they’re giving you a company logo polo or sweater is because they want to get their name out there. So it’s inappropriate for you to wear the branded merch (and be marketing for) a past employer, especially if they’re a competitor.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are they in the same industry? Are they a competitor?

      We get branded items from our vendors all the time and I wear them, just like I could also wear previous company branded items too because none of my previous companies are anywhere near competitors.

      So like no, don’t wear a FedEx cardigan in your new job with UPS!

      But if you’re a software company and your last company sold watches, it’s fine to wear your Rolex R Us jacket.

      Especially since you’re not wearing them as a “face” of the company it sounds like, since you’re not at a front desk or in meetings, etc. It wont’ cause branding confusion to anyone.

    7. ACDC*

      I personally don’t think it is inappropriate as long as 1) you aren’t wearing the branded gear too frequently, and 2) it isn’t a direct competitor. I use my branded laptop backpack from my old job every day. It is high quality and fits all of my stuff. If my new job gave me a new backpack, I would use theirs, but in the mean time…

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Similarly, if it’s a small embroidered company logo or something not very noticeable, I think it’d be fine. Then again, I’m currently using a pen with our biggest competitor’s logo on it at work because I got it free at an industry conference (my company’s logo was on the notepads!), and there’s no real issue with that here.

  126. minced*

    There were a lot of org changes at my job this past couple of weeks. I got a new manager and an entirely new team. I got placed with the “problem child” of the department. He has a lot of experience and generally does good work, but he’s got a track record with employees. He is known to be a jerk and was temporarily suspended without pay for assaulting a coworker (initiated a fistfight in the parking lot).

    It’s been a few weeks and honestly, I am very afraid of him. Upper management suggested we be placed together because “she’s sweet and gets along with everyone!!” My new manager has been working with him for years now and told me to give him a chance because he’s actually very nice. My experience with him so far is that he hates everyone and thinks everyone is incompetent. I would not be surprised if he told other people that I was incompetent behind my back.

    Anyway, how do I deal with this kind of coworker?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Is the problem coworker your boss or coworker?
      I was in that situation but the problem was my boss. It took a long time for me to detox from the job when I moved to a new department.

      If the problem is a coworker, we have one of those too. Most of us just keep quiet and avoid interactions with the problem coworker as we never know if we are getting jeckle or Hyde.

      I’m sorry you are having to deal with this.

      1. valentine*

        assaulting a coworker (initiated a fistfight in the parking lot)
        I would be looking to spend as little time in their presence as possible, and no time alone with them.

        I am very afraid of him.
        Prioritize this. If your manager could swear the assault was a one-off and the other person had it coming, would you feel better? Plenty of people speak their wishes in the face of violence, especially while foisting the perpetrator onto someone else, anyone else.

        If you have HR or someone else you can go to, start there.

        1. Wishing You Well*

          Start documenting what he saying to you. Start telling your boss what he’s saying (and doing).
          If you go to HR, make sure to say you “feel unsafe”.
          I am very sorry you’re in this spot.

    2. ten-four*

      …he assaulted a coworker? I don’t think the question should be “how do you deal with this” – it ought to be “how should the company deal with this” and the answer is FIRE HIM not “place him on a team with people you think will be cowed into dealing with him because they are SO SWEET.” Gross.

      Sigh, that doesn’t help you in the immediate term I know. My vote is to start job searching and get out of there as soon as you can, because this company is badly managed. In the immediate term: WishingWell has good advice.

      Just know that this is a him problem and a company problem and they are dumping it on you because they don’t want to deal with it. Boo on them. Don’t internalize their nonsense, prioritize your safety, and get on out of there.

  127. yes_mr_president*

    — How to be diplomatic about the following? —

    I work on projects, which means I work full-time on one project, then I switch to the next one. My project manager is always considered my “temporary boss”.

    3 weeks ago I joined a new project. From day 1 the PM made it clear for me that I was to perform a very limited set of tasks, below my normal responsibility level, and that my questions weren’t welcome. I tried to contribute above those minimum tasks, but the reaction was negative.

    Then I told myself: “I don’t care. The project is to take just several weeks. I hate it, but I will manage”.

    Now my boss proposed that I do something which he normally doesn’t want me to do, take over a bit more responsible task. My reply was “Of course, if you want me to!”.

    He started to shout at me accusing me of lacking ownership. He told me he “doesn’t want me to”, he “wants me to want it”. This escalated and he even told me told me to leave the office. This was super strange, completely unusual at the company. He’s a choleric I guess.

    Now, I’m a specialist. I won’t have problems finding a new job if I need to. And I was bullied in my previous job, which taught me that there’s always a plan B.

    But I would like to stay at this job.

    We have a conversation about “my expectations” and “my role” scheduled on Monday. And I’ve no idea what I should say. The project doesn’t last long, so I wanted to keep my head down for the few weeks, but he attacks me if I do and attacks me if I don’t.

    1. valentine*

      Think about whether this guy is like this with everyone or just you. Appeal to whoever is your actual manager or department head.

    2. ACDC*

      It sounds like our employment is very similar by nature, and I personally would (and have) stick (stuck) it out. I have also worked for volatile, abusive folks in the past, so I would say if you can keep yourself sane for a few weeks then finish up the project and do your best not to work with this person again in the future. If you think it will really affect your mental health, then it probably isn’t worth it.

  128. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

    People, I have a permanent job again! I didn’t think I’d survive the last two months but with the help of friends and family, and the temp work (same place since July 1), I made it through. I start on Monday.

    Saturday, Aug 31 I move into my new place as a roommate. My pay will be less, but factoring in a lower cost of living, I will actually be better off than before. Such is life’s twists.

    1. Scout Finch*

      I am SO glad to hear this! I have been concerned about you.

      Keep us posted on how it goes.

      Sending good juju.

  129. Blob*

    Did anyone here changed jobs in the past 6 months and is not extremely satisfied about it ?

    I changed jobs in March, I got a great salary increase, and I am learning new things in my current job (which is great for my resume, particualrly that I was bored stiff at my last job), but my new company is way less modern, less successful, my colleagues are very boring (yet nice) and not that ambitious, and I feel that there are less opportunities as I thought there would be, the work is quite interesting but the work load is light…

    Is anyone going through a similar experience ?????

    1. L Dub*

      Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

      Very short version: I’m only 2 weeks into my new job at new company, and there are some red flags about my manager. I’m a little up in the air about how I move forward, whether I stick it out for a bit and see what happens, or cut my losses and keep up the job search.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Not within the same last 6 months but I have had it happen before. My advice is to know that there may be some turnover in the future [there was in my case], the perfect amount of turnover. Then all us “newbs” got to start turning the culture around to what fits better. We’re now more ambitious than ever.

      Also being surrounded by those who aren’t ambitious means you may be able to stand out like a bright shining star, getting you more money and more things to build yourself around as well. That’s what I was also able to do. Less competition in that area is actually really good for you if you want to tap into it [unless management is weird which can happen but I haven’t ran into that specifically, most drink at the fountain of my overflowing ambition that they’ve been thirsting for ;)]

    3. Quill*

      I’m still kinda bummed out about having to more or less leave STEM. Reality is that I’ll never have any job stability in it, but I dunno if I’ll ever have any job stability where I went either…

  130. Titania*

    Short interviews: how can you try to extend them and are they always red flags?

    I’m applying to level 1 admin assistant positions and have gotten a handful of interviews! And only one of the interviews actually lasted more than 20 minutes? So far, the rest of the interviews had the interviewer ask me 1-2 basic questions and that’s been it. I’ve tried to extend the interview time by asking good questions and then adding my qualifications to the answers (oh wow this work culture loves llamas? that’s great because I too love llamas and have experiences working with them!) but it can only go for so long before the interview ends. And now some of the interviewers are getting back to me with job offers and I am conflicted about whether to accept them, when the interview was so short. Is there anything else I could’ve done better? Is this happening because the positions I’m applying to are entry-level, so it’s not as rigorous? Would really appreciate some feedback.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I haven’t hired before, much less admin assistants, so take this with a grain of salt:

      1) Extending an interview for the sake of extending an interview isn’t helpful. The purpose of a longer interview is to check for a match on both sides. Do you feel like you know enough from these interviews to accept a job offer?
      2) It seems likely that they’re strategy is to just let turnover happen and folks to self-select, which isn’t a great sign for company’s hiring rigor. To them, maybe it makes sense for entry-level admin positions?

    2. Anon re admins*

      My experience with admins is there are admins that do thorough work and everyone in the office wants to work with them and everyone is lost when they are out. Then there are admins that do almost no real work and no one knows why they have been there for two years. For entry level maybe the interviewers feel they can’t tell the difference so let the chips fall and use the interview to confirm the person seems like they can potentially fit in the office environment. I do not think it is a red flag.

  131. Pregananant*

    I am getting really fed up with our new CTO’s lip service to diversity and inclusive hiring when he has not made one single hire in the last six months who was not a cis white man. My coworker did the math and the gender balance in our (tech, unsurprisingly) department is worse than the US Congress. Not only are we not hiring women or POC, we’re losing the ones we have because those folks are starting to leave. It’s definitely in bad faith to use the last month of my upcoming maternity leave to start interviewing elsewhere, right? I may be the only woman in the department by the time I come back in four months at this rate.

    1. Massive Dynamic*

      Go interview! Be sure to check for any clause in your employer’s handbook though about repaying medical care/paid leave if you are employed with the company during mat leave but end up not coming back.

  132. Exhausted Trope*

    Well, it happened again. Connected with a recruiter for a great position last week. She rushed me to send her my resume (twice) , a bio, and three assessments the same day I had a phone interview with her. I was too busy and exhausted after work to do the assessments so I got up extra early the next day and finished them all before work. Later that day, she emailed that I did great, she liked my bio and she would submit my application as soon as I FaceTimed with her. (I posted something about this earlier this week re: I don’t have Apple or Mac products subsequently, no FT possible.
    So, she sent me a connection request on LinkedIn that I accepted and vanished. Ghosted again.
    Maddening. Makes me never want to work with an agency ever.

    1. ACDC*

      Recruiters can be great, but the behavior you are describing is really common. I would never rely on a recruiter in my job search, I simply use them as a supplement to my own efforts.

  133. Terrible Boss Leads to Terrified Employee*

    My former boss would absolutely eviscerate you for correcting him or offering a better solution. And I’m talking minor, objectively correct courses of action. For example, he once sent out a group email and included information from an outdated travel policy. I sent him the updated one directly, NOT via “reply all,” and his response was stunningly scathing. He was a bully in every possible way, and held grudges like a champ. I did finally complain when he started screaming at me over a misunderstanding – he’d constructed some sort of conspiracy in his head that I was part of. The complaint went nowhere, and he’s since left the company for other reasons.

    I now have a different boss, and whenever there’s something I may need to push back on, I’m paralyzed. We are all in the c-suite, with decades of experience and expertise, so we usually function like peers. But I can’t get past this. I find myself thinking “just let it be wrong.” And again, this is only on standardized items. I’m certainly not sticking my neck out on the basis of opinion! Any tips on recovering from a toxic, vicious boss?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, given how badly you’re reacting (and for good reason!), I would suggest some therapy. A few sessions/short term thing could help you reset.

  134. Zombie Unicorn*

    Kind of trivial but I would really like to know.

    Do you colour code your calendar (eg using categories in Outlook)? Why or why not?

    I have a few categories to stop me missing certain things eg red for deadlines, but I’m slightly bemused by some people who colour code everything – I tried it and it just made me really stressed if I accepted a meeting on my mobile phone and couldn’t change it to the right colour.

    Is it for you or for other people eg so they don’t mess with time that’s blocked off in red?Is it really worth all the time it takes to do? And what colours do you use for what?

    1. Anonya*

      I don’t. I’ve learned that I can’t keep up with that level of detail in the long run, and like you said, it drives me bonkers if I can’t get it right. Everything is in default blue. It’s FINE.

    2. Alianora*

      I have rules set up, so if it’s a recurring meeting it automatically turns blue, or if it’s a multi-day thing it turns red. The mobile thing isn’t a problem at all. Other than that, I don’t color code. Can’t imagine manually going in and changing the color for every meeting.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        I have a couple of colleagues who literally colour code everything.

        I forgot about the rules thing – that sounds handy.

    3. Not Me*

      I do. I’m very visual and the colors make it easy for me to have an idea of what an appointment at a glance. Travel is yellow, personal things are green, holidays are purple, etc.

      I also color code my email to some extent. Emails from my boss are blue, office manager is purple, etc., makes them easier to spot at a glance.

      1. Not Me*

        I should’ve added…I don’t color code every meeting/appointment. Red I use for anything “important”, like a statute of limitations end date after a termination.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      I do color code. I work in a library and teach classes at 2 locations in addition to having meetings at 2 locations.

      Meetings at my main locaton I leave in the default blue, classes at that location get a different blue. Meetings at the second location get a dark green, classes get a lighter green.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I use mine for locations too – every location that I use regularly has a color assigned so I can see where I’m supposed to be at a glance. It helps that anything involving an on-site room is color-coded by room in the Outlook calendar we use for room-booking so there’s already a color scheme in place for most things.

    5. Third or Nothing!*

      I have very little on my work calendar so it’s plain, but I do color code my personal calendar. Scheduled runs/workouts are light green, races are dark green, social events are purple, and volunteering is blue. That way I know with a quick glance what kinds of commitments are coming up so I can 1) mentally prepare myself for the coming week, and 2) know how flexible I can be for spontaneous events (i.e. my daughter getting sick but not sick enough to be sequestered).

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I always use color coding for calendars, only because I put a lot of junk on them. So I can quickly see if it’s just my standard to-do list vs new hire orientation vs an external appointment vs an internal appointment.

      It doesn’t stress me out because it’s just second nature. Kind of like how I just drop the file in the right location, I don’t need to think about where it goes, it’s muscle memory. So I think “Oh appointment, accept and color added.”

      I live by just glancing at things, so I don’t get caught up with being overwhelmed.

    7. Jules the First*

      I colour code my work calendar for me: internal meetings, external meetings, personal stuff, holidays (mine and my team’s) and solo work tasks that are time sensitive. This way I can see at a glance what type of session I’m booked for and whether it will be easy or impossible to reschedule. I weirdly don’t put deadlines on my calendar because they’re too stressful that way. I have a list instead that I check daily.

      1. Collette*

        I do this too. If I have internal facing meetings versus external facing meetings versus meetings with my boss, I need to get a sense of how much prep I need to do and of what kind before each meeting. It’s a simple as excepting the meeting and changing the color. But if it stresses you out, don’t do it.

    8. Joielle*

      I don’t color code using categories but I do use the Outlook “show as” options. Other people can see what I have blocked off on my calendar but not what the actual item is, so I want them to be able to see whether a block is “busy” (if I’m actually unavailable), “free” (which I use for deadlines, reminders, etc), “working elsewhere” (at home but answering email), or “out of office” (not looking at email at all). I don’t think color coding would help in my job at all, but I could see using it if you have meetings in different locations or something.

    9. Achoo!*

      I have to look at a lot of other people’s calendars, so I use color coding for that. If you go to “View” > “View Settings” you can set up conditional formatting, which (at least with how I use it) automatically colors things how I need them for probably 80-90% of my stuff.

    10. Policy wonk*

      I use red to show I am out on leave. (Stop – don’t schedule) otherwise no, I don’t color code.

  135. Anonya*

    To anyone who provided a piece of thought-provoking advice on yesterday’s question about hierarchy … thank you for your wisdom and clear-eyed thinking. I have been dealing with a good amount of work-related anxiety lately (a different problem than chafing against hierarchy, but there are some common threads and problems), and all of your advice is so applicable to a variety of situations. I only wish this resource had existed when I was newer to the workforce. I literally have 15 pages of comments that I copied and pasted into a Word doc, with my favorite passages highlighted. I have never done that before.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      That was an interesting discussion and one reason I come to and have followed this blog for so long.

  136. Tired of ghosting*

    I’ve never commented before, but I love reading Ask A Manager — it helped me realize that the situation I’m currently in isn’t a good one. I am desperate to get out of my job but stuck in a location/university system for the time being. It’s been a horrifying year in my job hunt. I had three interviews with one job that I was excited about, including a half-day in-person interview. They ghosted me after I met the whole team, never even got a rejection. (They work in the building next door!) An even more perfect job opened up, and I’ve been through two interviews and gave a presentation on online strategy. I’ve noticed them using some of my suggestions, but I haven’t heard anything. They said it would be a couple of weeks, but we’re getting to three weeks here, and I’m terrified that the same thing is going to happen again. I suffer from extreme anxiety around uncertainty, and though I don’t let it hold me back from taking risks, it really is a mental and physical load that takes a toll on me. I don’t want to go through this again.

    1. Blob*

      Job hunting can take a lot of time, depending on the field you are looking in, on the city where you live, etc. Eventually, you will find a job. But understand that most people do not find jobs quickly, and getting multiple interviews at a company does not mean that you will be getting the job. Hang in there, remain motivated, and good luck !!! Don’t stress for something that eventually will unfold :)

      1. Tired of ghosting*

        I’m at the beginning of my career generally, but if someone comes in for several interviews, isn’t it customary to let them know you won’t be moving forward? It’s not about not getting the job(s). It’s about never hearing back after being a finalist.

        1. Blob*

          It is very acceptable to e-mail/call them back asking for feedback on the job position. I agree that ghosting is not a very professional way to deal with candidates that you interviewed several times (or even once).

  137. Anonaberry*

    I’m very late to the party but need help thinking about whether or not to apply for a management position in my city.

    I have not had a management position before. This is a new career and I will likely retire in 10 years. If I think of it that way – I have 10 years, what do I do with them? – I can argue not to move up, why add that headache?

    Pros:
    -More money
    -More responsibility
    -Can hopefully steer the ship a little in a positive direction

    Cons:
    -It moves me from non-exempt to exempt and I won’t be strictly 40 hours a week anymore
    -Less time doing the job I love and more time managing others doing the job
    -Some of the people on the team are very hard to manage and it is a city job with all the limitations we often see here about managing in this case

    Of course, I can apply and not be offered the job, or might apply and realize I don’t want the job, but does anyone have a resource or thoughts to help me evaluate what I want to do?

    Thanks!

      1. Anonyberry*

        I dont think I would regret it, thats a great question.

        Unless we get a really crappy boss, then I would regret not trying.

    1. merp*

      Personally, I’ve applied to things just because I certainly won’t have a chance to learn any more about the position or consider taking it if I don’t. If you apply, you have more choices than if you don’t, so whether or not that is appealing may be a helpful data point.

      1. Anonyberry*

        I’ll def apply and see what else I can learn. That might help me decide.

        But I’m still hoping for resources or old archives to read to help me decide.

        Do I want to be a manager or not?

  138. Third or Nothing!*

    There’s something I’ve been wondering for a long time, so I figure why not post on here and see if anyone has any input.

    My husband is a welder in Texas. He has a great job now working for an aerospace company that pays him well, values his work, and provides benefits. However, it took him a long time to find such a cushy job. For several years out of trade school all he could find were low-paying temp jobs with no benefits and long grueling hours. His previous job was so draconian that one of his poor coworkers came to work coughing up blood because he had already used up his two sick days and would have been fired if he hadn’t come in! He’s worked for “temp-to-perm” which didn’t end up being perm after all (just a ploy to get higher skilled workers to come on for just a few months? No idea). He’s worked for places I un-affectionately call “churn and burn” due to how they treat employees as highly disposable robots. This is fairly normal in the industry, from what I have been told.

    I just don’t understand it. I really don’t. I was always taught that it’s expensive to hire and that high turnover is not great for business. Is the cost of high turnover truly that much outweighed by the benefit of paying low wages and no benefits? I’m genuinely curious.

    1. fposte*

      I think the answer is often yes. Or, to put it another way, they don’t feel enough pain from their poor policies to change them. It requires more obvious downside to motivate change than it does to set out a different policy to the start, so it would probably take a booming welder market + companies that had better policies and got all the good people before companies with such practices found themselves desperate enough to change behavior.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I wonder how the job market is going to change as the older welders retire. Maybe then we’ll see some better practices as companies scramble to replace experienced staff.

  139. Anon this time around*

    The bee hive is in full frenzy mode here, and it seems everything is my fault if I in any way shape or form touch it.

    I was scheduled by my boss for 15 meetings this week, well above and beyond the normal 2-3. I asked if I could be approved for overtime in order to be sure I had time to complete task X, Y, Z, and projects A & B, all of which were assigned on Monday and due by the end of the week. In a normal week, no problem, but 10 extra hours of meetings takes a bite out of my productivity. He acknowledged that was a lot of extra meetings taking up my time, but since it wasn’t a problem getting things like this done normally I could figure it out for this one week, so no OT and no extension of the due dates.

    A vendor called to complain about an invoice that’s not paid. Entirely normal, and justified. I notice we’ve sent the invoice over 3 times for internal approval to pay, which hasn’t happened, and there’s been no response to my requests for follow up. I recommend the vendor contact the buyer on our end directly, since I’m not getting a response. The buyer promptly tells the vendor it was approved for payment weeks ago and that I, specifically & personally, am delaying the payment for no good reason. I have the email thread with this response, which was CC’d to my boss. Check my queue, the payment is finally approved, but the approval is dated the day after the buyer said it had been approved for weeks. I notified my boss of the actual approval date, but he said I was to blame for failing to de-escalate the situation and causing the buyer to be professionally embarrassed.

    Also this week, it came up that I didn’t authorize purchases one day last week. After 5+ minutes of boss & grandboss cutting me off when I try to speak so they can reiterate the importance of the task and their displeasure that it didn’t get done, they finally pause long enough to let me explain. The day I didn’t do approvals was the day I was out sick. Boss or one of my other coworkers are supposed to cover it if I’m out, but no one bothered to check the queue. I suggested that when I notify I’m out sick, I can add a reminder this task needs to be covered. Grandboss is looking to get me a laptop, so when I’m out sick, I can still login to do these things from home. I pointed out that may not always be possible and also, I’m hourly, so I would have to be paid, which seems to defeat the purpose of taking a sick day. Grandboss says it’s fine with him if I work even when I’m sick. Also, he’s now reviewing anything which didn’t get done on my prior sick days because he feels I take ‘too many sick days’. We get 6 sick days per year, so far I’ve used 2 in 9 months.

    There was a compensation review to determine if we’re being paid fairly. HR announced everyone was getting at least a 3% COLA and more for those who were undercompensated based on the study. Met with my boss to review where I fell on the scale, he informs me I’m not getting a raise at all, for the 3rd year in a row. Seems suspicious when the word from HR is that everyone was getting COLA.

    Lastly, a coworker from another dept. called asking for assistance with fixing a customer transaction. Difficulty: I specifically work with vendors and do not have access to the customer side. I don’t even have an active account for the new CRM software. I directed her to a different member of my team who would be able to help. I was chastised by my boss for this because forwarding her on to another member of the team is poor ‘internal customer service’. Since I literally have neither the tools nor training to help, I questioned how I was supposed to assist. The response was ‘I don’t know, but you need to do better next time.’ Sure, I’ll get right on that.

    Anyway, that’s my vent, and I really wish I could get an interview at any of the places to which I’ve applied because things here are getting pretty untenable.

    1. WellRed*

      I pointed out that may not always be possible and also, I’m hourly, so I would have to be paid, which seems to defeat the purpose of taking a sick day. Grandboss says it’s fine with him if I work even when I’m sick.”
      How generous of him. Has it always been like this or are you being set up to fail?

      1. Anon this time around*

        It’s been a major downhill slide since the latest CEO took over. Boss & Granboss have been close personal friends of the CEO for decades. This is not a family business, where that might be normal, but a sizeable (for the area) NPO.

        The Grandboss came on a couple years ago. Since then, anyone who predates him here is terrible at their job, regardless of measurable performance.

        According to my actual metrics, I have a 99+% accuracy rate. Routinely, he highlights my error rate as unacceptable. Also, the errors I do make are found and corrected before reports are published as part of our own internal review. 85% of the corrections are things I find and fix on my own. In my worst month last year, I had 6 data field errors which were posted to the system, out of the 22,000+ fields I hand-keyed during the cycle. That was called out as unacceptably bad.

        There are also a lot of catch-22 scenarios where we are wrong no matter what we do. I grew up with an insane gaslighting parent, so I’m familiar with this and have realized I’m truly not the problem.

        Because of that kind of garbage treatment, I’ve been disengaging from work a lot. I spent a whole day watching Psych reruns on Amazon Prime when things were slower. The only reasons I haven’t walked out yet are A) the places willing to hire me pay about 25% less than I make here which is a huge gap in our finances and B) my wife is on my insurance and needs the coverage to get her meds, which are super important.

  140. WKRP*

    Whelp, I did it. I applied for a job at my current company that is a complete and total career change. I had an initial interview with HR earlier this week, where I learned how out of practice I am doing interviews. (5 years at the same company will do that). Hopefully, I didn’t bomb too badly and I’ll make it to the second round. Or maybe not…

  141. Gutenberg*

    Is 3 hours, 6 minutes not the “quick response” expected to “assure my consideration”? A few weeks ago I applied for a position that I think would be a really good fit for me, and day before yesterday I received an invitation from a recruiter to schedule a phone interview. The message arrived midday my time with the recruiter stating availability that day and the next (yesterday). By the time I responded 3 hours later, I suspect it may have been past the end of their workday (I was not available anyway). I replied that I was available all day the following day although afternoon was better. There was no response so yesterday in my early afternoon, I followed up with a short, polite email, just to check in and let them know I was home and available to talk. Here it is Friday and still no response. Normally, I would not think this time lag to be significant, but both the job description and the invitation email emphasize the importance of timely responses to emails. The email included language about how my “quick response” would assure my consideration. Is it possible that 3 hours is not quick enough? Of course, if this is true, it is a huge red flag, however my communication has been with an outside recruiter, not with the actual company.
    Neither of us addressed today’s availability. I did not volunteer anything about it because as I write this, roofing supplies are being loaded on my roof with the accompanying noise and other things that need my attention this morning. I have other plans for the afternoon that I really do not want to cancel should they suddenly want to talk. So I told myself I would not fret about the interview and if they have the decency to contact me again, maybe we can talk. But here I am fretting anyway, checking email and writing to AAM!
    So, assuming I have not heard anything by end of day Monday, should I follow up with a final email expressing my interest and willingness to schedule an interview? After all, not everyone works on Friday and unexpected things happen. Any interview I schedule next week will likely take place with roofing noise in the background!

  142. ACDC*

    I learned recently that my company has a team at their corporate office who’s job is essentially to troll the Internet (especially anonymous sites like this one and Reddit) and see if any of the negative comments are about our company. This team works closely with IT and enables bots that traces the IP address. I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but my coworker posted something on a thread in Reddit this week about moving out of state and being happy to leave her job (this is the summary obviously). She got a call the next day from our manager asking when she was planning to notify them of this change.

    ….is this normal?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m no expert on this, but I don’t see how they could get IP addresses for commenters on a site they don’t have their own access to. Typically that’s only available from the back-end of the site. It’s more likely they found out about your coworker’s plans some other way. (Any chance she posted it from work? That’s something they could have seen.) But no, this is not normal!

    2. Not Me*

      I have never heard of a company doing that. It sounds like an incredible waste of time and resources. It’s much more likely that certain sites are flagged by IT and they are notified when someone accesses that site on a company device or via company internet access, and track what’s posted. Even that would be a lot of work for any decent sized company.

    3. Jules the First*

      Our HR team monitors job boards and social networks and will flag to your manager if they think you’re thinking about leaving, which I think is creepy (if you, the manager, do not know that your team member is unhappy and job hunting, I rather think the retention ship has sailed…) but isn’t this accurate.

      1. ACDC*

        I’ve definitely thought about it. I just had my year-aversary a few weeks ago and I’m trying to make it another year as I left my last job after less than a year because of a horribly abusive boss. Clearly I pick real winners in the employment department.

    4. Fibchopkin*

      This, specifically, is def not normal. What IS normal (though still pretty gross, imo) is:
      1. Monitoring job search sites like Monster and Indeed and getting alerts from these sites (who offer this as a paid service, gag) when resumes from current employees go up. My current (though after Friday of next week, it will be former) org does this and I HATE it and have it my mission to tell colleagues over the years to do the extra work to opt out of having their resume reported and not to use job sites at all that don’t allow for this.
      2. Having IT monitor and report activity done on company equipment/via the company’s servers. Many companies do this for security reasons, and most IT people, in my experience, couldn’t care less what you do on your computer as long as your not infecting your equipment with a bunch of viruses. Most companies keep the data log, but don’t really check it unless productivity and work time get questioned, or if something illicit it suspected, then they can go back and see how much time you’re spending on social media instead of working. However, some orgs, and some managers have standing orders for IT to report when an employee goes onto specific sites or platforms, and then those managers go look and see what you did when you were there. So if your colleague posted from work equipment/ on your work’s server, then that’s probably how your company knew what was going on.
      3. I have anecdotal experience with an HR team that makes a point of monitoring the public (and occasionally private) feeds of all employees’ social media accounts. This is much more common in the intelligence and political sectors, in my experience. The reasoning is actually fairly sound. In the intel game, these accounts are routinely monitored and/or spotchecked to make sure nothing is accidentally getting posted that really shouldn’t be. Classic opsec and it’s not malicious, the org just wants to make sure no employee is unintentionally revealing data that could lead to a breach. In the political arena, this is VERY commonplace and the reason is to ensure that noone posts detrimental material to the campaign/mission/office/etc. In some cases, it can get really byzantine though. Some places create dummy accounts and get themselves accepted as friends to personal social media accounts and then monitor those. This is also potentially what occurred with your colleague (HR/Security figured out their reddit u/name and monitors it) although this level or scrutiny and work is highly unlikely if you are not in the political or intel game.

    5. Qwerty*

      The more likely scenario is that she used company equipment to make the post and it was flagged because of that. The IT departments can set up an alert system for publishing posts or sending emails that contain specific keywords. Items with alerts get reviewed on some set basis (monthly/weekly/daily depending on the volume) and anything worth acting on gets passed on to HR.

      How common this is depends on the industry and how regulated it is. If you are using your home computer on your home network with the company VPN disabled, then it is unlikely for anonymous sites to point back to you. Usually where I see people running afoul of this is forgetting to turn off their work VPN at the end of the work day, or using their phone at work while it is connected to the company wifi.

    6. Anon Librarian*

      It is possible and not shocking to me, but it isn’t common or normal. Some companies really are that paranoid. There are ways to trace IP addresses. And, as you said, a lot of this is probably done automatically. I bet the team just oversees it and reviews the results.

      It’s a terrible yet common PR strategy – devoting energy to worrying about the negative stuff. Companies with good PR sense don’t do that. They do look for trends – to be taken as constructive criticism. But they don’t get bogged down looking for or responding to the usual negative press (big scandals are obviously a different story). Instead, they focus on putting forth a positive message and encouraging positive press. So this is a sign that your company is misguided and is wasting resources.

      I would also be super concerned about the lack of respect for employees’ privacy. It’s a big red flag. I would be job hunting.

      1. N.L.*

        It should not be possible for a company to trace IP addresses of people leave posts or comments on a site said company doesn’t own. The site won’t give them that access. What are you thinking of that I’m overlooking?

  143. Uncertain*

    This is the position:
    a. my performance at my current job has been sub-par for the past year, due to a combination of burnout, depression, and the accompanying DGIAF attitude. I acknowledge this.
    b. My bosses finally noticed and gave me what is essentially three months to job hunt while employed here. I’m not certain what happens at the end of that, or when the end date is, but let’s guess November.
    b.1 – there are many issues here on their side as well (no asking me what was going on before deciding to take this step, etc., they are conflict-avoidant in the extreme, etc.) but they also truly care about me and are trying to make this easy
    b.2 – Had I been in a better headspace, I would have realized that fighting to stay in this job at this company was a bad idea a year ago.
    c. – I have a potential job offer in the works somewhere else. Same work. Bigger company. Smaller department within the company. Probably more money. Six hours away. Hiring timeline “unclear” but I know the hiring manager and his manager want to bring me on. They have to sell it to their boss.
    d. – in the meantime I have been intensifying my job hunt where I currently live. Lots of phone conversations, activating my network, etc.

    So. I got an email today following up on the potential job offer, with indications that things may be moving forward a little sooner than anticipated. But – I don’t know if I want the job anymore. I was excited about it at first, but the longer it’s been since the interview process, the more hesitant I feel. And if I can get a job here that wouldn’t require moving and all the hassle that involves, I would much rather do that. AND I might be able to get a job doing different work in the same field, which would frankly be more interesting.

    But the local stuff is all hypothetical at this point. It’s still early days. I think what I’m worried about is getting a firm offer from New Company and feeling like I have to take it whether I want it or not because it’s a paycheck and I am still paying on my grad school student loans – which are substantial. And I don’t know if my hesitancy is because I’m wary about the job itself, or if I just don’t want to feel trapped into accepting because I need the money and it’s there. At the time of the interview, I was very gung-ho, and not just because it was falling into my lap! But thinking about doing the same thing I’m doing now, just elsewhere?

    I just don’t know. And seriously, my loan debt is staggering (more than my mortgage). If they offered me a job tomorrow, I don’t know how I would respond.

    1. WKRP*

      It’s hard to make decisions when you’re depressed or anxious (or both), so I do hope you’re getting help with that.

      I think you need to take a strong look at what you’re doing now and why it’s not working. If it’s the environment, but not the job — then taking a new position doing the same thing, elsewhere is a good solution. If it’s the job itself, then taking a new position doing the same thing will probably not be your last move, but you can make it work for you… if you want to.

  144. nonymous*

    I have a new supervisor (previously a peer) who historically has been very dismissive of my job duties. In her new role she has basically told me that (a) she doesn’t know what I do (b) her boss doesn’t know what I do and she told him that she didn’t either and (c) she isn’t interested in my performance elements as they were previously documented.

    Because she was previously a peer, she thinks that my duties only encompass what overlapped her previous position (only one performance element) . In the previous six weeks she has told me that the topics I have brought up which fall under other elements are not my job scope and I am overstepping. Not by email. Never by email/IM. sigh.

    Can you tell it’s performance evaluation season?

    My most pressing issue right now is to get my performance elements for the upcoming year identified in a way that upper management (2 – 4 levels up) will be able to see, at a glance, that my accomplishments over next year fall in the various element buckets. If I had a good rapport with this woman I would just shoot an email/bring it up in a 1:1. But in my most recent 1:1 she took a personal call and told me that “I wasn’t listening” 3x before she let it slip that she had reassigned the task to someone else a week ago (meanwhile I’ve been giving status updates by email…).

    Any tips on guiding my clueless and abrasive new supervisor?

    1. Alianora*

      Honestly, talk to her supervisor. You need to clarify what your actual job duties are going forward.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        And follow up EVERY conversation with a confirming/summary email. You need to document.

  145. Barbara*

    I have an interview on Monday for a call center customer service position. After doing some digging on the employer’s internet presence, I’ve noticed they have A LOT of negative reviews and customer complaints. Usually you’ll see a mix of good and bad, but these reviews are horrendous. Is there an appropriate way to bring up these poor reviews in the interview without being critical towards the employer? I don’t know if I can handle working for a place which doesn’t give a crap at all about customer satisfaction.

    I know we can’t please everyone 100% of the time and that there will always be someone pissed off at a company, but page after page of bad reviews leaves me a bit concerned.

  146. jbn*

    I was diagnosed this week with ADHD (combined presentation) and while it’s mostly been a relief to have some answers, I’m not sure how to navigate the workplace now. For context, I’m a 32 year old woman & have a director/senior management level position where I work really independently on my own projects. This position is actually what drove me to seek an assessment, because it’s the first position I’ve had that wasn’t focused on external deadlines. Now that I have autonomy & my projects are determined by me, I noticed I was having a lot more trouble being productive.

    I’m incredibly high-functioning so a lot of the resources I’ve found in my googling are directed at people who need help prioritizing tasks, managing their finances or emotions, being on time to appointments, or other things that ADHDers often struggle with — but that’s never been me. I apparently have a lot of “compensatory strategies” to manage these types of executive functions, but struggle with intangibles like ability to focus, memory recall, and completing the last 20% of a project.

    Does anyone have experience with an ADHD diagnosis as a mostly-successful adult? What helped you? Did you disclose it at work? I’m not embarrassed by it at all but I’m disinclined to share it at work because I appear to be the only one who notices it. This is all new to me still so I’m open to any advice!

    1. juliebulie*

      I was diagnosed at 40. Tbh nothing except medication has been able to address the focus problems and such, and it helps only a little bit.

      I have somewhat disclosed it to a few people at work, though I can’t help thinking that it must be obvious to everyone.

      1. jbn*

        Thanks for sharing! I have a follow-up appointment in a few weeks to discuss medication — after 30+ years of figuring out how to get by without it, I’m definitely open to seeing what impact it has. I do a very good job of hiding the symptoms, especially the hyperactivity ones — instead of bouncing my knee or something visible to a person next to me, I wiggle my toes in my shoes or slide my tongue across my teeth, for example — so I am hopeful the medication helps mostly with focus.

    2. Sal*

      No advice but I’ll be following this. This sounds just like me and I have been working to get an appointment for an assessment. Good luck!

      1. jbn*

        Good luck! I got a referral from my PCP & it still took several months to get an assessment appointment, but it was a very smooth & thorough process. Stick with it!

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Like you, I was functioning okay in most areas, but the crunch showed up in task initiation & completion when I had to be the sole instigator, as well as issues with working memory and focus.

      Medication helped a lot, because those are the type of internal issues that it’s really hard to build external support systems for.

  147. bmj*

    Recently a project manager (“Bran”) was transferred from another team to my team as part of a reorg in our department. My own boss “Ned” basically said coming in, ‘keep an eye on him’. Ned wasn’t sure that Bran was really contributing enough but Bran said that this is because his talents weren’t being used. Ned saw this move as a chance for Bran to essentially ‘put his money where his mouth was’ because the move to my team meant he would work on a wider range of products and be doing more planning and tactics, which is what Bran said he wanted.

    I’ve been working with Bran for maybe 3 months now, and I just don’t know if it’s going to work out. It’s ups and downs. After a slow start, I thought it was going better. Bran seemed animated in describing the plan and tactics he was working on for a new project. But other times (more often) Bran is completely disinterested. Like being disengaged in important meetings, to the point of opening fiddling with things and not even appearing to pay attention to what’s going on. Bran also doesn’t seem to want to work collaboratively (except in the ‘I plan, you execute’ sense, which is not quite our way. The plan itself generally has to be reviewed and discussed with higher ups and stakeholders for buy-in, even if one person is the lead. No one ever sends anything out that hasn’t been reviewed.). When new projects or one-offs have come up and I’ve asked Bran if he wants to be involved, he says no, there is already a lot on his plate. he’s also said no because he ‘doesn’t know the product well enough’. Compared to the other people on my team, his workload is pretty light honestly, and I just don’t get the not knowing the product thing. it’s our job – we learn about things if we don’t know them. There are also some things like leaving early/arriving late/non-communication about plans and PTO/issues with his timesheet. Normally I wouldn’t be so hung up about those, but as part of the overall picture, there’s just a complaining demeanor of ‘i don’t want to be here’ from him, and a resentfulness whenever I push deadlines or require him to work on things outside his comfort zone. I don’t need people to treat this job as their life, but I do expect them to be professional enough to present a pleasant front. We’re a pretty high-functioning department and a lot is expected of us. We’re all salaried and everyone puts in additional time when needed, especially our higher-ups- Ned works harder than anybody- so most people have earned a fair bit of flexibility and it’s sort of seen as the norm for us. I feel like Bran hasn’t really lived up to that.

    I’ve kind of been hanging back, to see how things went, but I need to have a talk with Ned soon about this. I am sure that I need to be more direct with Bran about some of these issues , but I’m having trouble knowing where to start. i have been lucky enough with my team so far that this hasn’t been an issue. everyone else manages their workload pretty well, has a good sense of urgency and prioritization and they communicate well with me about status and reviews and issues. I’ve had hard talks with them about things like setting fixing mistakes and working with problem stakeholders, but nothing along the lines of ‘you keep saying you are too busy for additional work, but i see you leaving early and coming in late.’ I’m also having trouble articulating the rest because it seems squishy. no one in the dept is perfect, but everyone else really feels committed to working together and getting it all done- we haven’t had to say this explicitly. If any of them said their workload was too high, i would believe them. it feels like it just comes down to Bran not wanting to do the work that has to be done and not wanting to work with the team here. i honestly sometimes wonder why he hasn’t left on his own because he seems so unhappy. I’m going to read up some in Alison’s archives but if anyone else has any advice (or scripts!), i’m all ears.

    1. Colette*

      There are a few things here.
      1) He’s not doing the amount of work you’d expect
      2) He’s resisting learning new things/moving outside his comfort zone
      3) He doesn’t want to work with others
      4) He’s working less than he should be, and may be committing timecard fraud (if I’m interpreting “issues with his timesheet” correctly)
      5) He’s not communicating what he’s doing or even when he’ll be in the office

      I think you need to have a conversation with Bran. Maybe like this?
      Bran, it’s been 3 months and I have serious concerns about your performance. In fact, I wonder whether you’re interested in this job. Do you want to be here?

      (Assuming the answer is yes):
      “Your workload is lower than others on the team, and I need you to be willing to take on new projects, even if that means learning new things. It’s normal to have to take projects in areas you aren’t completely comfortable in, and to have to learn the area as you handle the project. I also need you to review the plan with the stakeholders before X.

      Finally, you have been coming in late and leaving early, and taking PTO days without notice, which may be part of why you are struggling. Again, I need you to be able to handle a higher workload than you currently have, and your unpredictable hours may be making that difficult.”

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think you also have a Ned problem. This really stuck out to me:
      “Ned wasn’t sure that Bran was really contributing enough but Bran said that this is because his talents weren’t being used. Ned saw this move as a chance for Bran to essentially ‘put his money where his mouth was’ because the move to my team meant he would work on a wider range of products and be doing more planning and tactics, which is what Bran said he wanted. ”

      So Ned suspects Bran was probably not doing as much as he should BEFORE, and his solution was to give him even more work and more responsibilities. That is ridiculous, and the definition of ‘failing upwards’.

      I’m not clear if you mean your team as in you’re the team lead (who may not have that much authority) or the manager (with full authority). If you have authority, then Colette’s script is perfect. If you don’t, then meet with Ned ASAP and just modify the script so that you’re reporting these same observations to the manager.

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      Definitely just assign him work – stop presenting it as a choice.

      I wouldn’t focus on the fiddling though. There’s research that shows that actually helps some people focus.

    4. JamieS*

      Have you addressed these issues with Bran directly? It sounds like you’re just assuming he’s aware of your department’s norms as far as workload and collaboration and critiquing him based on that without every telling him the expectation.

      There also might just be some transition issues you need to work with him on. For instance, maybe his workload is less than everyone else’s but significantly more than he’s used to so he legitimately does feel overwhelmed and need support.

  148. AG*

    I recently had a first round interview for a position I would love. Part of the position is coming up with new resources or programs for the members of this organization (this wasn’t clear from the job posting and was specifically mentioned during the interview). Afterwards I spent some time thinking about ideas and came to one I think is really exciting. Obviously there are plenty of reasons the organization might not want to use this idea, but I’d like to share it with them. Is sending an email to the person I interviewed with too overeager? Should I wait and see if I get another interview and bring it up then? FWIW, I interview with a person fairly high up in the organization. I already sent a thank you note, so I can’t include it in that.

    1. juliebulie*

      Yes, it can be part of your thank-you email. Don’t say it like “you should,” say it like “what do you think.”

  149. BadPotato*

    Can I get the permission to burn this bridge?

    I just accepted a job offer for a position that I’m feeling OK about. My first and second choices didn’t work out so I decided to accept this one, which gives me a 2 hour daily commute, low salary, and decent benefits. But now my friend sent me a link to a job that would be a better fit for me and my career goals, along with a better commute and salary.

    Should I go ahead and send out an application to this other job? The thing is that the current job offer that I accepted did not give me an official starting date since I need to go through their background check, which I predict will take at least a week or two. So there’s a chance that the job offer might go through since the offer depends on the background check. I’m not sure how to feel about this kind of situation. On one hand, I should try to not be a jerk and burn a bridge. On the other hand, I’ve been burned by employees and have had offers rescinded for stupid reasons (budgeting somehow doesn’t work anymore, etc). My thoughts are that it doesn’t hurt to send in an application and I’ll probably not get a job offer for this better position. But the what-ifs are gnawing at me right now.

    1. HappySharpie*

      Apply!!! I think it’s better to apply than not apply. If you do end up getting to the first job and like it you can always rescind your application with the second job. And, if you land second job and it’s amazing and much better (lower commute, better pay, and good benefits) take it, but graciously let the first job know….that you’re sorry to do this to them, but this amazing opportunity dropped in your lap and you can’t pass it up.

      1. BadPotato*

        Thank you for the reply! I was a little annoyed that my friend sent me the link because I had just accepted the offer, but now I feel better knowing that I do have this opportunity! I guess it wouldn’t hurt to look for good positions every once in a while, as the background check is still running?

    2. merp*

      Honestly…. I’d apply. Maybe others will have different opinions, but if you would regret not going out for it just so you don’t have to wonder, I’d do it.

      1. BadPotato*

        I guess the burning part would be if I were to magically get the better position offered and then backed out of the first one? But thank you, I’m glad that I can be a bit selfish for once in my life!

        1. juliebulie*

          All right, so it might be burning something if you ditch the first offer. It might not matter, once you’ve found a job at a better place. Having the new place on your resume will probably make you more marketable down the road anyhow. And a few years from now, that first place will probably have a whole new lineup of managers who won’t care if you burned their predecessors or not.

    3. I edit everything*

      Applying won’t burn anything. If you get to an offer with this other position, then you’ll be able to make an informed decision about which job is best for you.

    4. irene adler*

      Apply! Then update us!

      Remember, only YOU have your best interests at heart. No one else does (even if they talk a good talk about having your best interests at heart).

      And YOU are the only one who can take actions that are in your best interest.

      Anyone who finds fault with this needs their head examined.

      1. BadPotato*

        I appreciate it! I just feel horrible since it is a jerk move to accept a position and then say, “ah sorry but I actually think other position, that I interviewed for after accepting this offer, is better so bye”. But I’m trying to tell my myself that I have some leeway due to the background check… because nothing’s technically official until it’s done right :)

    5. Joielle*

      I also vote for apply! Assuming the job you’ve already accepted isn’t at, like, a majorly important employer in your field or something, I don’t think burning a bridge is the end of the world. You can probably only do it once or twice before you start to get a reputation, but life happens and you have to do what’s best for you.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since you know that you’ll be burning a bridge here [there is a bridge, it’s the one where if you back out of the offer, they will probably not want to hire you again in the future, which is fine enough, especially with that commute!], I think you’re completely fine doing so. It’s one of those calculated risks we take in our careers. Even if you end up taking the job, starting it and then getting a new offer and bouncing in the first month, oh well. You’re not going to use that other company as a reference by any means or put it on your resume even, so no harm no foul in that case.

      When you offer low salaries, despite a good benefit package and then you also hire someone who’s bussing themselves in for a low salary, you know in the back of your head that person probably won’t be around long term. It stinks to have someone leave so quickly but meh, business.

    7. Sneaky Pete*

      My friend just went through this exact situation — and he was hired for job #2. He was offered 50% more per hour! Plus, no big commute.

  150. AliceBD*

    Seems like my autoimmune disease is flaring. I have not had that happen since I am no longer employed at the place I was when I was diagnosed, which was a smaller office who knew all about it as I was struggling to be diagnosed. It is a condition that can be extremely physically visible (think strangers on the street staring at you, people in the grocery store asking if you’re ok). I want to be prepared in case my doctor and I take a bit to get it under control. It can look contagious but is not, and I work in a doctor’s office (not in a patient care role but I do walk through common areas and sometimes through patient care areas). Resources for telling coworkers I’m ok, deflecting questions, reassuring them I’m not contagious, and stopping talk of how going gluten free/vegan/doing yoga daily/etc would solve it?

    1. fposte*

      Whether it is or not, this made me think of psoriasis, and there are a few discussions in comments of managing psoriasis at work (it’s a very specific search term so using it in the search box should get you to those comments). I think mostly you’re cheerful and concise: “It’s just an autoimmune thing, nothing contagious. Thanks for your concern!” Repetitions can be treated to just “Thanks for your concern!” without anything else. People who want to tell you how to Fix Yourself can be treated to a “I get really tired of talking about it and don’t want to do it at work. Thanks for understanding!”

      The doctor’s office is a mixed blessing–there may be the occasional patient who thinks “Oh, no, is that skin condition contagious?” but probably a lot of people will then think “Nah, she wouldn’t be here if it were.” I might leave some messaging with the front desk staff, if you know them, in case they get questions, but other than that I wouldn’t try to control patient response–it’s just too much work for too little reward.

  151. PersistentCat*

    So. I have the silliest of things that I would appreciate advice on. When you have a big project hitting a huge milestone, requiring a large amount of hands-on work, how do you handle your daily tasks? I can’t seem to keep up with my daily tasks when there’s big stuff on my plate

    1. Catsaber*

      Not a silly question! I approach it like this:

      – I carve out some time for the daily tasks, usually around the afternoon when I am most brain dead and need to do some routine tasks that don’t require much effort
      – I let my boss (and others) know that my priority is Big Milestone, and while I am still working on daily stuff, it may be delayed
      – I rope in a colleague if I need to

      1. PersistentCat*

        Thanks, Catsaber! I’ll try to schedule an appoint with myself for the routine things :) I hadn’t thought of that; seems a bit obvious now

        1. valentine*

          You can use them as breaks. If pulling yourself away for them is difficult, do them when you return from a bathroom or other break.

  152. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    Y’all I just got a reply all email about another candidate who interviewed for a job I am going in for soon. I am mortified. I already emailed back saying “I think I was accidentally included, please remove me from further emails” but LORD JESUS I am uncomfortable.

    Also, the reply all included a request for my CV…I didn’t include it in the please remove me email but should I send that off to anyone? The head person already has it so I am considering letting them deal with it so I can pretend I actually did not read the email.

    1. EJane*

      Don’t send it. If they were requesting it from YOU in that email, they meant to cc you, which, wtf???????
      and if they weren’t requesting it from you, the person they were requesting it from is responsible.
      You’re in the clear.

  153. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    Team AAM Commentariat, I have a difficult situation I’ve never experienced before and would love advice. I’m visiting this term, and I’ve been assigned a very capable and lovely admin assistant who supports several faculty.

    This weekend, his wife had a pregnancy complication that required an emergency C-section, and although the baby was born alive, it passed shortly after surgery. They had been trying for several years to have a child, and this was the farthest they’d been able to carry. This news is incredibly awful, and they are (very understandably) physically and emotionally wrecked.

    Aside from aggressively advocating that he’s entitled to his paid medical leave during this grieving period and generally avoiding sending him work or anything that might add to his stress, I’m not sure what to do to support him. We don’t know one another well enough for me to intrude on his personal life, and I only found out about what happened through a colleague (i.e., he doesn’t know that I know). I don’t want to make this about me, but I do want to provide him with whatever support he needs right now. I would be very grateful for any guidance or insight folks may have.

    1. fposte*

      I think this is one of those situations where you accept your helplessness in the face of tragedy. You can hope he has support, but it’s not something that makes sense for you personally or positionally to provide beyond what you’ve already articulated.

      I think we often experience a desire to make the world right or at least righter after such a sad thing happens; that’s no bad impulse, but since you can’t really make the primary sufferers’ world right, what I tend to do is make a charitable donation to someplace relevant. It’s just for me so I don’t tell anybody about it, but it helps me direct that “I want to do something!” impulse away from people who don’t actually want me doing something specifically for them.

    2. I edit everything*

      I think a note saying, “I’m so sorry for your loss. Please take the time you need to recover and don’t worry about work.”
      He doesn’t know you well, so might be put at ease by your saying “I’m not an asshole,” in not so many words.

    3. LGC*

      First of all, I’m SO sorry for their loss! I can’t even imagine.

      Do you know who he’s been in contact with? I’d actually run things through that contact person – like cards, flowers, general gestures. It sounds like he’s overwhelmed with grief right now, and this sounds like a really sensitive loss.

      1. Lilith*

        I like this idea a lot. Maybe there’s a blood donation fund the friend knows about or some other organization.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Oh, I quite like this approach. I found out from the faculty member who he’s worked with the longest, and she’s very thoughtful and sensitive about these kinds of things. I’ll ask her if I can quietly contribute to anything the faculty may be doing for him, as well as seeking guidance for sending anything supportive or kind (but more general).

        Thank you, all!

    4. Mid*

      I might send him a card/note saying you’re thinking of him and his wife, and that you’re there if he needs any support getting leave/financial support (if your job has a fund for crises like some do).

      It’s not a big deal that you know, I’d guess, because you’d need to know that he’s on leave, right? I wouldn’t say anything overly detailed or personal in your note to him, but I don’t think it would be an overreach. Especially since he doesn’t really know you yet, and might be worried about what his new-sorta-boss thinks.

  154. Jules the First*

    I’ve just hired for the last slot on my team (offered and verbally accepted this morning, but not yet signed a contract). Is it kinder to cancel the last interview (which is booked for Friday next week) or go ahead, knowing there’s probably no open slot on my team for a year or more?

    1. fposte*

      Cancel. This isn’t like a day-of situation where they’ve already ordered the Uber.

      Put it another way: I bet if you found out after an interview that they knew a week before that there was no way they would have hired you, I bet you’d wish they’d have canceled.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I would cancel so as not to waste their time, but would want to do it in a way I didn’t lose a good candidate if the new teammate fails to follow through. It may depend on how long it will take to sign, and how good you feel about the new hire.

      Since the interview is Friday, you have a little time. If you expect contract signing will happen fast (like Mon/Tues), you could let that play out. When that’s locked, you can (and should) cancel with no reservations. You could also punt — cancel the Friday date but leave rescheduling on the table in case you do end up needing that interview.

  155. Ann O.*

    I think I have developed a mismatch between my job titles and my areas of expertise/biggest interests in a job. I am a technical writer/editor by job title, but in my most recent jobs, I primarily functioned as the team’s tools architect. It was awesome, and I loved the work.

    The past two jobs I’ve applied for have been GREAT matches on paper. One was basically my old job that I was a rockstar in. But when I interviewed, the interviewers were basically all, “yeah, about that. We really don’t need the person to do any of those technical things and we’re concerned that you haven’t been writing at all in your recent roles.” (this is not true, by the way, I’ve done a TON of writing) The most recent interview, there was literally a bullet point in the job description that the hiring manager said was untrue–which was the bullet point that made me MOST interested in the position!

    It’s frustrating, and it’s totally throwing me off my interview game. Having done this type of work for long enough, I know 100% that if they hired me, they would benefit from my technical skills. But I’m an open book and they are almost certainly sensing that I’m primarily interested in the technical work and less in the routine documentation. And also, I AM primarily interested in the technical work, so a run-of-the-mill technical writing job isn’t as attractive to me as one that combines both aspects.

    1. Auntie Social*

      “I haven’t been writing? I write quite a lot. You may be thinking of someone else. How many writing samples do you want?”

    2. CheeryO*

      That sounds really frustrating. This probably isn’t what you want to hear, but I think you either need to wait for a position that is truly a blend of both aspects, or be willing to feign a little more enthusiasm about the routine writing work. It sounds like the technical stuff that you prefer is a minor part of both of those roles, so maybe the job descriptions weren’t completely representative of what they were looking for.

      1. Ann O.*

        The job descriptions were not representative. I have been trying to wait for a position that’s a blend of both aspects! That’s why I’m worried that there may be a mismatch between job title and skillset. It’s beginning to seem like technical writing jobs that claim to be looking for my type of technical skills aren’t actually looking for them. But the roles do really exist. I just clearly don’t know the right job title to find them. (Job titles in documentation are a hot mess, in my experience.)

        I do enjoy technical writing, and in the right type of technical writing team, I would be very happy as a writer. So I wouldn’t necessarily need to feign enthusiasm. I think it’s more that I need to learn how to switch gears midstream without being so obviously taken aback and surprised when the job turns out to be quite different from how the job description presents it.

    3. new kid*

      If you find any roles that are more explicitly ‘technical content strategist’ or ‘cms architect’ or etc, you should apply for those as well as the tech writer roles that claim to be both! You can speak to your experience in your cover letter and if it aligns with the role I doubt many hiring managers will be put off by title mismatch in your previous tech writing roles – I think most people realize these days that lots of organizations have massively different approaches to titling, so the experience/accomplishments of the role are the only important piece.

      1. Ann O.*

        Ooo… I will try those titles in searching. I’ve been trying “information architect” “tools architect” and “knowledge engineer” in addition to technical writer and coming up with too much garbage to wade through.

  156. TechWorker*

    Today someone called me ‘maam’ over IM, in the context of saying ‘yes maam, thanks’. I hope this is a language barrier (he was India based) but also a bit weirded out.

    He’s also more senior than me so urgh the whole thing made me squirm. (Probably because I am an awkward Brit)

    1. WellRed*

      I’ll sometimes say, “Thank you ma’am!” to my boss. My office manager might say it to me after she makes a request of me and I provide the info. It…really doesn’t mean anything.

      1. TechWorker*

        Hence the language barrier.. it is not something you’d ever say in a business context in the U.K. – or at least it reads very old fashioned and weirdly deferential. (Or, sarcastic)

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I think it’s actually an easier sell in the U.S where it’s an established colloquialism as well as a formality. I think a closer equivalent to U.S. ears might be “madam.” I wouldn’t bat an eye over a “Thank you, ma’am” from a distant colleague, but “Thank you, madam” would make my eyes seriously widen.

          1. WellRed*

            U.S where it’s an established colloquialism as well as a formality
            Thanks, fposte. This explains it better than I could.

        2. Grace*

          Yeah, ma’am is…for the Queen? And that’s about it? (Okay, I guess also other senior people in very specific circumstances, see also the confusion in Bodyguard when Richard Madden calls the Home Secretary “ma’am” with standard British pronunciation and a lot of confused Americans thought he was saying “mom”.)

          Definitely not something you ever say in day-to-day life. If someone ever called me ma’am, my immediate response would be that they were being incredibly sarcastic.

      2. Allypopx*

        This is a very common thing in the US, particularly in the south, and I’ve found a lot of India based companies (like tech support or customer service) get a lot of their norms from US corporate training so it could be that. You’re probably right that it’s cultural in some regard.

      3. Arielle*

        I say “Yes ma’am” to my husband sometimes just to be funny, and the number of times I have forgotten and done it to a (male) coworker is more than zero.

    2. Close Bracket*

      I work with a Texan who calls me maam sometimes. He’s my age and my level. It’s a thing with Texans; I let it go.

      1. Anon Librarian*

        Yes! And it took me years to figure that out. I’m from NY and Baltimore. Then I lived in a part of Maine where it’s common, and then Texas. I thought everyone was insulting me all the time. I’m glad to know it’s regional and that people are just being polite.

        And I would err on that side in this context. It’s impossible to say, but since it’s meant politely in some areas, it’s fair to take it that way for now.

  157. dinoweeds*

    I’m struggling to pick my jaw up off the floor. I hope that HR is helping her and that this guy is put on a PIP at the minimum.

    1. dinoweeds*

      Whoops, this was meant to be a response to that link on Slate someone shared about a girl’s boss reprimanding her after finding out she had a boyfriend.

  158. dessertfox*

    Has anyone relocated for a job?
    I have a call with a company but the role is across the country. This is a referral and the call is to discuss the role and relocation. I haven’t even officially applied to the job yet. This is brand new territory for me so I’m just wondering what kind of questions I should be asking and what kind of relocation package is considered fair. For some context, I work in tech with approx 5 years of experience.

    1. Colette*

      I did, years ago.

      Questions you might want to think about:
      Will they move your stuff, including vehicle(s)?
      Will they provide you with accommodations while you’re looking for a place to live? How long?
      Will they pay for a trip out there to find a place to live before you move?
      Will they store your stuff for X amount of time while you’re waiting for your new home to be available?
      Will they pay for your flight?
      If you own a house now, will they help you sell it?
      Will they pay other moving costs (e.g. utility hookups)?
      Do they organize the move, or do you organize it?
      Do they pay a specific amount for moving, or do they pay specific expenses?
      What kind of approvals do you need to get before moving?
      Do they pay directly, or do you pay and get reimbursed? If you get reimbursed, what do you have to do to get paid (e.g. save receipts, pay on a specific credit card, etc.)?

      1. It's All Academic, Not*

        This is all good. A few more. Are you responsible for taxes on the the moving expense money? Is it considered income. Do they pay the full amount? Will they give a housing allowance for the first few months? Is there a ceiling, one months salary for example. Will they pay for a partner/spouse trip to the new location?
        For example- moving from NYC to the midwest double the cost of the moving because the moving van couldn’t get down my street and had to make two trips with a smaller truck to bring our stuff to another location.(and this was just a one bedroom) Find out the real costs not an estimate. Best advice that I got was wait until the offer then worry about this stuff.

    2. dessertfox*

      thanks! these are awesome suggestions.
      my plan is to let them talk about their standard relocation package and then ask some of the more detailed questions you guys provided above if they aren’t as forthcoming. I don’t expect a full play by play at this point, but I would like to get a general idea of what’s on the table.

  159. Waiting Impatiently*

    I’ve been interviewing for a job that I really want since the end of June. So far I’ve done two phone interviews and two in-person interviews, and the next step is supposed to be an assignment. I discussed the assignment in detail with the hiring manager at my last in-person interview, and after we finished she said she was going to go put it together and email it to me. I followed up with an email the next morning thanking her for her time and reiterating my interest in the position and that I was looking forward to getting the assignment. That was 2.5 weeks ago and I haven’t received the assignment yet. In the process so far, there’s generally been 2-2.5 weeks between one step and the next time I hear from them. Is it appropriate to follow-up again now with the hiring manager? Or with the HR rep that’s been coordinating my interviews? Or should I just hang tight and operate under the assumptions that they’re super busy and will get it to me eventually and/or that I screwed up in my interview and I’m out? The hiring manager did seem incredibly busy and they’re hiring for a number of positions right now, so I’m hoping for the former, but know that it could be the latter.

    1. I edit everything*

      Hang tight. Hiring manager might have had other interviews after yours and be planning to send the assignment out to everyone at the same time. They’re incredibly busy. And if she liked you, she won’t forget you. If you get to 3.5/4 weeks, and quick, “Hi, what’s up?” would probably be OK.

  160. Ahoy Hoy*

    This is just a rant!

    I had to give my boss some news that our current technology platform cannot support a change he would like to make related to one of our client transactions. Our IT team put in a lot of time to investigate the possibility, but it’s beyond the capacity of the platform we use. In theory, I $uppose a $olution could be found, but it would involve something at the level of an RFP for a new platform which is definitely not going to happen (nor is my boss the decision-maker about what technology we utilize).

    Meanwhile, my boss is pouting about this, and saying things like “well, I guess no one has a ‘can do’ attitude about this” and “too bad no one did any creative problem-solving here” and sighing heavily. This … is not the situation! Everyone took an honest look at what was possible, and this is not possible!

    1. Catsaber*

      Ugh, sounds like my former department. The exec director freely spent money on technology, but not the people resources needed to implement and support it. So he’d just throw us these crazy random apps and expect us to learn them from top to bottm (and integrate them with each other and get reporting from them, etc etc) within a matter of weeks, and NONE of us had the skills to do that. We’re talking full-scale implementations. So when we complained about not having the skills or the time, he’d just get pouty, but never changed his practices.

    2. MigratingCoconuts*

      Is your boss not technical enough to understand? I work with people like that. Put it in terms they can understand. “Boss, we can’t make a record player play dvd’s” etc.

  161. samestuff, different day*

    I have an issue at work where one department in particular, our squeaky wheel, is constantly going over my colleague and I’s head for anything and everything. We are in a service department, so the other employees in our office are our “customers” in that we help solve issues around operations/building management etc. Instead of speaking to us directly, they go over our head and issues then gets passed down the chain to us, sometimes 3 hours late for critical issues. Our boss and Boss’s boss are super unhelpful in supporting us in a solution, and their manager is only trying to help fix the issues, not realizing that half the time a fix is in the works, or that we didn’t know about the issue in the first place. What can we say to our leaders to nip this in the bud so it doesn’t keep happening? They’ve asked us not to bring this up to the individuals creating the problem.

    1. Colette*

      I mean, if you can’t talk to the people who are going over your head and your management wants it to be handled in this indirect way, can you just stop caring?

      Is this causing issues for you (other than annoyance) – i.e. do you have to work late to fix it?

    2. EJane*

      I work at an MSP as the service coordinator/dispatcher, a role that didn’t exist in a functional capacity before me. I had to retrain our owner and highest manger, not to mention the techs, in how to work within that flow; everything was a mishmash of “SOMEONE’S GONNA DO THIS I’M GONNA TALK TO SOMEONE ELSE AND THEY’LL DO IT OR FIND ANOTHER PERSON TO DO IT DID YOU DO THE THING WHAT THING”
      I had a lot of trouble with other people doing my job–scheduling service calls, replying to customers from my service board, not updating me on task status–and it was reallllly screwing me over.

      I went to my boss and said, very plainly, “This completely disrupts my ability to do my job quickly and effectively. I’m here to provide [x] support, and when [y] happens, I’m unable to do that in [a,b, c] ways. My understanding was that the service flow went in a specific order, and that’s not what’s happening, which is causing difficulties for myself and costing the company money. I would really appreciate help in addressing these efficiency issues.”

      Raise it in the context of the business, and make it about efficiency, productivity, and efficacy, not how incredibly freaking disrespectful it is. When it’s objective, it shows that you’re not taking it personally, and that your primary concern is for the business.

  162. AnonEMoose*

    So, for the last few months I was tasked with a particular task for another team where I work. This is not work I had any interest in doing and was in no way an opportunity for me; this was my employer taking advantage of my knowledge from previous tasks because the other team desperately needed the help. Which, ok, I don’t like it – REALLY don’t like it, but I understood it.

    I’ve now (within the last couple of weeks) been able to hand this work back to where it belongs. But…I’ve still got people attempting to get me to handle “time sensitive” requests with this and/or asking me questions about it. Despite me saying, politely, that Task now resides with Team Where it Belongs.

    Is there a better/more efficient way of saying, in essence: “I no longer handle this. Kindly forget I ever did. Don’t ask me questions about it, don’t approach me about it. Just….Don’t? I am Not An Option for this, under ANY circumstances.” Or should I just continue to politely, through gritted teeth, say that “Task now resides with Team, you will need to ask them,” and/or redirect to my boss (he’s out this week).

    1. Colette*

      “Oh, that task has moved to Team, so you’d better talk to them! I wouldn’t want to send you down the wrong path!”

    2. EJane*

      What Colette said. If people are coming into your office/workspace and disrupting you in person, I’m a big advocate of the polite interruption (wait until they pause, say “I’m sorry to interrupt you but…” and then something along the lines of “I’m unable to help you” or “the only one who can assist is x team” or “I wouldn’t want you to put energy into explaining something to someone who can’t address it. x team is the right person to go to.” It will die out over time.

    3. Grapey*

      I would think your boss is the arbiter of if you are actually still approachable about it.

      But I’ve been this person at my work too, and the unstated task that goes along with doing something for another team is to leave behind enough CYA documentation that you can say both 1) “This is now done by Team A! CC’ing Team A lead here.” and 2) Team A Lead, in case you need it, I wrote documentation for how to fix the widget at this link.

      Part of me doing something for other teams was an understood few weeks of helping with certain requests to make sure my documentation was clear.

  163. tree frog*

    Just got an email that our corporate overlords (I work for what used to be a small company that was bought up by a behemoth) want an estimate of our PTO hours for the rest of the year. Not the dates, just the amount of hours. Any theories as to why they’d want this…? They haven’t made any changes to our benefits since the acquisition a couple of years ago, so I’m worried it could have something to do with that.

    We don’t have any kind of PTO requesting system, so I’m not really worried about being held to it if I underestimate. It just seems…weird!!

    1. irene adler*

      Only theory I can come up with is: corporate is sizing you up for a sale.
      Probably a long shot.
      The PTO amount (of all employees) can be viewed as a liability in terms of how attractive the business is for purchase.

    2. CAA*

      They probably want to know what percentage of labor costs will be spent on work vs PTO for the remainder of the year. If your time is billed to clients, then it’s a proxy for estimating revenue. If your time is billed to projects, then you may be in an industry where labor is a capital expense (e.g. software development) which has implications for income tax.

  164. Me--Blargh!*

    I scored a freelance SEO content gig. Yay! However, after figuring out what I would pay in tax for writing one post and the time it takes to write it (particularly as I’m learning their system), I could make more panhandling. I don’t think I can get clips out of this, either. And oh my god I do not want to write about incomprehensible industrial hooey; I think my brain just shut the f*ck down. I am screaming internally right now and I want to quit.

    Still waiting in vain for the house to sell so I can get a full-time job elsewhere. Send tornadoes, please, with bus-sized hail. >_<

  165. EddieSherbert*

    I thought there was a past post on this topic, but I can’t find it… maybe someone can help me out :)

    If you’ve gone through a name change, how would you indicate that on your resume? Note it by the jobs that were under previous name? Parentheses at the top with old name?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      On my resume, I don’t – just my current name. (It currently shows jobs I’ve held under … wow. Four different names, actually.) If there’s a separate application, usually there’s a spot for previous names and I put it at the end of the “duties performed” section. Also, the document with my references specifies what name I was using at the time I was working with each person.

    2. Art3mis*

      I just use my current name. If it gets far enough for a background check they’ll ask by what other names you’ve gone by.

    3. Allypopx*

      I just have a small line at the bottom of my work history that says “*Known by employers prior to 2017 as Maiden Name”

  166. Ama*

    Needed to share a small professional triumph: today my report came to me to ask for a slightly larger raise than what we put in her annual review, she made an excellent and professional case for herself. Which meant I had to turn around and speak with my boss and the finance director which was pretty daunting as my boss seems to have some misconceptions about my report’s effectiveness (I try to praise my report to my boss frequently, it seems to be lingering effects from a couple of struggles we had early on that I fell she has grown past). But the finance director was almost immediately on board and my boss said yes, too! Not an enthusiastic yes but I think I supported the case my report made for herself effectively — and it helped that the finance director backed me up by pointing out this brings my report up to market rate.

    To be honest I’m a little miffed that no one told me I could have just asked to give her a bigger raise (I’ve only been a manager for two years and I’m not high enough to have direct salary determination), as I probably would have asked already because I’ve always been pissed about her starting salary (we had a different COO then who was notorious for lowballing new hires). But I’m pleased that I at least was able to assist her in advocating for herself.

    1. Quoremie*

      Great job! I’ve been trying to advocate for some of my key reports too. It bothers me how their salaries don’t reflect much except how they negotiated (or didn’t) when they were hired. I’m trying to get some of my best employees a significant raise. My opinion too was bypassed this year when raises were decided so that kind of sucked because I had a lot of relevant opinions.

  167. Ruby314*

    Not seeking advice, just commiseration because I can’t focus and am very anxious today! I had a second (final?) interview for the very first job I applied to after moving to a new city and freelancing for three years. I haven’t had a job interview since my last FT job, where I’d been an intern, and I was pretty sure I’d be offered the position, so nowhere near the same level of nervousness as I feel now! I was told that I’d “hear something” by EOD today, which I’m guessing is either an offer or a note to sit-tight-we’ve-offered-someone-else-and-you’re-on-the-bubble.

  168. Washed Out Data Analyst*

    I’m still mourning the loss of my dream job opportunity and the prospect of staying at my lame job for the time being. Some good news is that I’m seeing my friends this weekend, and might get a pro bono consulting opportunities that will add to my resume.

  169. No Tribble At All*

    Who else saw this Buzzfeed article about women asking for raises, especially women of color? I’ll share the link in a reply.

    “I went out to dinner that night with three of my coworkers: a South Asian and Middle Eastern woman who had seven years of just banging job experience, a black woman with a PhD in cognitive psych and more than a decade of job experience, and a white woman who was 24 and had been working for like two years…. Every single one of us was making the same amount of money, including our 24-year-old coworker who only had two years of job experience.”

    The author, a Korean-American woman, recommends asking your coworkers to play over/under for salary because people are so hesitant to discuss money. “Hey, I’m looking to make a career jump into one of the big tech companies, and I just want to know what you’re making. Can you just tell me, are making over or under X?”

    1. Mid*

      I’m not disagreeing with the premise, but I feel like comparing salaries across fields is an iffy metric.

      But regardless, yes, women should ask for more money, and they should ask for raises, and they should talk about salaries and compare them to make sure they aren’t being underpaid.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        I think she said that about moving fields as a ruse to get people to talk. People are more willing to talk about what a field should make in general than about what they in specific are getting paid.

    2. Ann O.*

      I found the article really confusing, honestly. The author describes the job as a design agency, but what does a PhD in cognitive psych have to do with a typical design agency job? The author, herself, appeared to have been working primarily in unrelated fields and had only been at the design agency two years. If the white co-worker’s undergrad major was in design and her two years of job experience was in design, her job experience may have been comparable to the others. Or maybe not.

      Then that author says she found out market rate for her job by blasting everyone on LinkedIn who had the same job title as her and seemingly comparable job experience, but also said “I am in a really privileged and exceptional position of being able to make a jump into tech.” So was her raise because she was being underpaid at the design agency or because she changed fields?

      I guess the details would be too identifying, but I wish she’d given a little more. Because there seems to be an element of thinking an MA or a Ph.D. should translate to increased salary when that depends a lot on the specifics of jobs.

      I liked the over/under strategy, though. That seems like a nice way to broach a difficult topic and still get useful information. And she does a great job illustrating why conversations about salary are so important. (also, the connection between class and student loan debt)

  170. Candy*

    How often should you follow up about a job?

    Monday 5th – My husband has a phone interview with site manager (SM)
    Thursday 8th – He has an in-person interview with SM and the president (P). The in-person interview goes well, my husband walks away with the impression he has the job and is just waiting for a guy in HR to return from vacation on Monday and call him
    Mon/Tues/Wed 12/13/14th – No calls
    Thursday 15th – My husband texts SM, who says he is now on vacation but HR is back and should be calling him by end of day Friday 16th

    That was last Friday so it’s now been one week with no call. Should my husband follow up again with SM?

    1. CAA*

      I’d wait until mid-day Monday the 26th. Then send an email to the SM, just saying he hasn’t heard from HR and is wondering what if there’s a timeline for the next steps in their process. That should be his last follow-up. If they don’t get him an offer after that, then something on their side has changed and they no longer want him.

  171. Reba*

    Need advice on curbing annoyance.

    What helps you change your thoughts and reduce your frustration with colleagues?

    I have someone that I’m working pretty closely on a longish-term project with. Colleague is senior to me in the org, having been here since the 90s, but I’m leading this project. Organizational culture values collaboration and “we.” Colleague has a lot of wisdom I respect, and I really, genuinely value many of their contributions. But they just aren’t “with it,” for lack of a better term — not reliable, not proactive, and when I include them in meetings it’s full speed to tangent town.

    This is not BEC stage — I really like and generally enjoy this person! Additional context might be that they are coming off a really difficult year, losing a spouse to long illness.

    Help me stop my internal eye rolling, and accept or work *with* the way this person works.

    I really, really don’t want to slip up and be snappy with them (which has happened once) or to show my frustration on my face.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to try to learn to develop a “ah that’s just Fergus” kind of mentality. I find it easiest when I catch myself internally as I’m thinking “Hard sigh, eye rolling” and say “It’s just his quirk, let it roll off your back.”

      I had to deal with this with a lot of special personalities over the years. It’s easiest to adjust yourself, you can’t change someone else. So you change what your reaction is, you tell yourself “It’s not worth the stress, just roll with it.” and do so.

      Personally for me, it’s all about the internal self-talk. I catch myself feeling aggravated and mentally say “Dude, Self. Stop it.” It redirects the emotions and puts it back on me to control, instead of assuming the person you’re annoyed with is supposed to magically “know” or even want to change their quirky traits.

      I also just go ahead and build in fail-safe options for people who aren’t proactive or reliable. If I know you’re going to probably forget about it, I will remind you, with a smile. “Just a heads up that the returns are due tomorrow. I need the report by noon, the one I emailed you about on Tuesday?” Sure it’s more work, sure it’s annoying but it keeps you in charge on that level.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Interestingly, this is probably the one kind of situation where “That’s just so-and-so” can be used for good and not evil!

        Plus, I think the additional context is the key. The grief and recovery, that’s got to be such a tough situation to deal with and still try to be functional at work. The tangents are probably a derivative of a coping mechanism – keep going even if it leads you down unrelated trails, to push out other thoughts. I dunno. If it helps, maybe think of it as they’ve earned the right to coast a little.

        I’m currently working with a mentor who’s about to retire and he keeps out-prioritizing meetings with me and being out of the office. It’s a little vexing because I feel like I can accomplish more if I run things past him, but that’s where he is – checking out of things where he doesn’t need to be deeply involved anymore. What I found helps me is thinking about it as my opportunity to grow. I don’t have him to check my work anymore (and definitely won’t in a few months!) so I’m getting out of the mindset that I need him as involved as he used to be. Not excluding, just not waiting for or overly relying on. It’s hard because like you, I genuinely like working with him and wish he could be as involved as before. But, that’s not the case so I try to find the best alternate path.

    2. Alianora*

      It helps a lot that you genuinely like this person. I find it helpful to have a lot of positive interactions with people who have annoying habits, so that I mostly associate them with good emotions instead of frustration.

  172. Crossed Fingers (and Toes)*

    My SO made it through two interview rounds at a job that while it is far, far from perfect, would be an exit ramp from the underpaid, no-benefits, bureaucratic-hellscape temp jobs they’re currently trapped in. (Long story short: had management position in high-demand industry; company relocation conflicted with family caregiving obligations; was essentially full-time caregiver for a while there; now trying to get back into full-time employment and it’s so, so hard.) This job would be a big step down from where they were, but have a reasonable commute, benefits, and be at least in the industry, more or less, they left. Please think all good and positive thoughts.

  173. Career Changer*

    Does anyone have any advice for changing careers into IT? I’m interested in moving into IT security (i.e. cybersecurity). I currently have a BS in a liberal arts major. Any tips for making the transition?

    1. user412*

      You will find plenty of info on the internet. Depending on what you want to do you can start learning yourself or get a job in a related field and then “transition smoothly”. There are plenty of people who have done that so don’t feel alone.

    2. Utoh!*

      Have you taken any classes or gotten any certifications? If you have no experience in IT, then education is key here. You may not land an IT security gig right out of the gate, but can always work your way up to it, especially if you keep your skills current.

    3. EJane*

      I work at an MSP; you definitely want to start with education. With the lack of hands-on IT experience, look into comptiaa certs, and microsoft certifications. Having the book know-how when you start looking for jobs will help a lot; coming in green and fresh is going to be VERY hard if you want anything above minimum wage.

      Start with taking what you can get. Cyber security is very complicated, and you start learning it by learning how truly, truly stupid some end-users are. That’s best learned in a customer service/help desk environment.

      And if you’re located in the PNW, let me know.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      Our public library has A+ and N+ lessons online through lynda.com.

      Yours might too. You can use them to study for the cert tests.

      1. Fuzz Frogs*

        Just FYI, you might want to ask your library if they’re keeping Lynda for the next fiscal year. Google “ALA Lynda” if you want the drama, but they’ve managed to make a lot of libraries angry and quite a few are planning to drop it as a resource.

  174. Filosofickle*

    I have an ethical question about pursuing former clients/contacts I worked with at another business. This is super long, bear with me please!

    Background: I’m technically a self-employed consultant but for several years I’ve gotten nearly all my work through an agency on a project basis. The agency owner brings in the client, we scope it together, and I then take over and lead it, including staffing, client management, and budgeting. The agency is teeny tiny — just him, one employee, plus me and freelancers as needed. Clients don’t see any of that, they assume I’m an employee. I’m ready to move on and rebuild my own business, and in the meantime I’ll still take some projects with him. Don’t want to burn any bridges, plus we have a fairly personal relationship.

    I would never go after his clients to build my business, that I’m 100% clear on. We have agreed to two exceptions that benefit me: 1) If he finds projects that aren’t big enough for the agency, he’ll refer them to me. 2) If a current client might have follow-on work that falls under that minimum threshold then I can offer them my own freelance services after our project is finished, with the upfront caveat that if the work is bigger it should go to him.

    A new situation has popped up. We have longstanding major client and, of course, I would not pursue any work with them. However, a former exec of that company left and is now at a new company. (This is actually her 2nd new company.) She posted online that she’s building a team and I’d like to reach out and offer her my services as an independent consultant. We crossed paths with her many times including socially, but never actually worked together directly. Neither of us really “owns” a relationship with her.

    I have a couple of options: A) Reach out to her, explain that I’m independent (she likely does not know) and ask for work with no caveats. B) Reach out, but volunteer the small-work-only boundary. C) Talk to him first about what feels right. I value being transparent and don’t want any appearance I’m undercutting his business (which is struggling right now) but I also want to be fair to myself.

    What concerns me is I have a history of holding back to accommodate him, and ending up limiting myself unnecessarily. For example, for years I felt like it was my responsibility to make sure clients didn’t find out I wasn’t an employee so I didn’t do things like connect to clients on LinkedIn. I find myself tiptoeing around his feelings A LOT. Do I really owe him an advance conversation before I reach out to her? What if I ask for permission and he says he doesn’t want me to? Is offering the “small work only” boundary fair to me since it’s not actually an existing client? How much do I need to take care of his feelings?

    I realize this is pretty specific and outside most people’s experiences but if anyone has any thoughts I’d love to hear them.

    1. EJane*

      From a purely theoretical standpoint, as I can’t claim to have been in your situation, I would go with A.
      The exec is working at a new company that you don’t have a business relationship with. Remove the ‘former’ bit from that equation; she’s a potential client. She no longer has any ties to her old company, and I’d recommend she and you function as such.

      You’re also not outbidding him on a project, or anything. You’re reaching out and offering your services. Assuming that you would, in good faith, refer projects too big for you to your colleague, there’s nothing to ethically balk at, here.

      1. Filosofickle*

        D’oh, such a good nudge about referring big projects to him! Honestly that situation hadn’t occurred to me but yes I would do that. That helps.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Do you have any kind of non-compete in place? If so, check on what that looks like and plan accordingly.

      I think plan A is your best bet and I like EJane’s suggestion about kicking him projects that you aren’t equipped to handle. That is of course until you get big enough to handle them and then homeboy is SOL *evil laugh*

      You had a mutually beneficial relationship, he got a right hand colleague without having to pay any of the taxes or benefits that come with an employee and you were able to work for yourself and keep your skills sharp. You owe this guy nothing and if he gets his feelings a little hurt well…it’s not showfriends, it’s showbusiness.

      For the record, you’re far kinder than I was when I launched my business. The second my non compete was up I ruthlessly targeted former clients of mine. I figured I gave old company a huge head start, if they couldn’t keep them, that was a them problem.

      Good luck with your new venture!

      1. Filosofickle*

        Nope, no non-compete! He’s started that recently with new freelancers but not me.

        I realize my sense of loyalty is distorted, that’s a big reason why I wanted to check in here. It’s a hard mindset to break.

        Thanks!

        1. Filosofickle*

          Now that I think about it, the *lack* of non-compete may be making this harder mentally. A non-compete creates the rule — you can’t, then after 1 year you can. By definition, you have permission after that point to pursue clients. Instead, I am working on an honor code, which doesn’t have any end date.

  175. Emi.*

    Any feds taking bets on another shutdown? I’m prepping union communications just in case but I don’t have any sense of what’s going to happen once Congress comes back.

    1. sunshyne84*

      The shutdown didn’t affect me, but the job I want it might…that would suck for future me.

    2. Cog in the Machine*

      My gut reaction is that there won’t be a shutdown this year, but I also wouldn’t be willing to put money on that.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Not a fed but my thought is it might be a bad move just before an election year starts in earnest. The economy already seems it could be a problem, that would just be adding fuel to the fire.

  176. Close Bracket*

    Heh. Somebody at work just told me to go get a strap on. He meant wear a static dissipative wrist strap so I don’t zap the electronics. I am like 12 years old and a very poor fit for a white collar office environment.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      *sits in corner giggling* 10/10 wrong phrase
      We have a program called the DTF and I just. Can’t.

      1. EJane*

        We have multiple clients with questionable names, including ones that, if misread, can sound like “Butt” or “Fart” and other childish things.

        Literally everyone in the office regresses to 13 when they come up.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is the kind of thing we’d all be rolling around laughing over. But we’re a bunch of knuckleheads around here and even are slowly corrupting our innocent much more buttoned up exec *cackles*

      1. Close Bracket*

        You will appreciate the day I turned to my classmate and said, “Can I see your wang?”

        Which actually meant, “Can I see your copy of the textbook written by the author named Huang?”

        Man, grad school was much more fun than this.

    3. Wandering*

      In a choral group of mostly college & just post age people affiliated with a religious university, a priest joined us. He was close to our age, & here from another country. So we asked what had brought him there. Big smile.
      “I came here for an STD.”
      *dead silence*
      “Sacred Theology Doctorate. What were YOU thinking?” Wink.

      He has great comic timing, & was just a delight. We were bummed to learn that (because he is also brilliant) he finished in two years & had gone home before we reconvened the next summer.

      (STD was commonly used for “sexually transmitted disease” in the US.)

  177. SlothHerder Support Squad*

    Just venting.
    For half a year I’ve been pushing through large numbers of updates to Herding manuals because of a manufacturing requirement. At the start of that, way back in December, the KittenHerders emailed me and asked us to do their Q2 address change at the same time –3 cheers for advanced planning.
    Well, today the SlothHerders thought to tell us that THEIR mailing address is also changing.
    Add 25% rework, right there.

  178. Art3mis*

    One of my work friends got fired this week. Our manager told her she was taking too many breaks and coming back late from lunch a lot. Thing is, that’s not true. I often go with her on breaks and lunches and neither are excessive. I also sit by her so if she were spending a lot of time away, I would have noticed. I know it’s easy to side with your friends, but I’m a pretty objective person and try to see things from all sides, it’s even annoyed some friends on occasion. I just don’t get it or how it all went down. She’d never gotten a warning, this was the first she’d heard of it. She’d had some absences lately and was worried she’d get a “write up” for that, but they were legit problems, she wasn’t calling in because she didn’t feel like coming to work or was hung over. Her car broke down one day and later in that week her son was in a car accident. But the abscesses weren’t even brought up when she met with our manager. So anyway, I just don’t get it and I’m kind of disillusioned by it because I really thought my company was different and wouldn’t pull things like this. “You were right, Johnny, you can’t win no matter what you do.”

    1. WellRed*

      You may not have all the information behind this decision but if you do think you do, would you feel better addressing it, but framing it as wanting to make sure you understand the rules? But yeah, that’s pretty crappy of them, otherwise.

      1. valentine*

        If you only have your friend’s word, she may be minimizing or trying to save face. Unless you both know what your manager deems excessive for your friend and you timed her, you may have gone by the friendship, not actual time, in determining what felt like a reasonable amount of break time. I’m surprised you’re not concerned for yourself if you really did spend the same amount of time away, but perhaps your manager weighs it differently when it’s you.

        1. Art3mis*

          Oh yeah, I am concerned. I had my 1/1 with her the day after. I didn’t bring it up b/c she’s our new manager and it was more of a “get to know you” type thing, but she basically said she had heard nothing but good things about me and thought I was doing a great job.

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      Did you overhear this conversation or is it what your friend is telling you?

      I… would take her story with a pinch of salt, I highly doubt it’s the whole story.

  179. MsChanandlerBong*

    Have you ever worked with someone who made you wonder if you were slowly losing your mind? That’s me with one of the bosses at my company. He’s not my direct boss, but he’s *a* boss, so I have to help with some of his projects.

    We discussed an outreach project that would involve contacting people in our industry (education) and asking them for quotes to use in an e-book. He decided we should contact professors at prestigious schools. My understanding was that I would contact each school’s PR department, explain the project, and then ask if it would be possible to get a quote from one of their esteemed faculty. He said if I gave him a list of schools, he’d get me a list of emails. I have him a list of 20 schools and expected to receive a list of 20 email addresses (e.g. pr@bigu.com). He sent me back a spreadsheet with 500 email addresses on it. Just a random list of professors and their emails, with no titles or departments to indicate how I should approach each contact. I like to personalize every email a little bit, even if it’s just a sentence or two about the person’s work, especially when asking a stranger to do me a favor, but he wanted me to just email them all the same canned message. And if we emailed 500 people and got 100 replies, we’d only use 20 or so, and too bad for the rest of the people who took time out of their days to share their expertise with us.

    Had I been unsure of what we were doing, I would have asked. But it was one of those things where what he said made sense, but then it turned out we were talking about two different things.

    1. JudyOnHolliday*

      I think what happened here is that you expected him to do the legwork and he expected you to do it. Finding the right people to approach is quite a bit of work. And of course a canned form letter is going to be ignored, especially by busy well-regarded professors. Do you work for a prestigious publication or whatever that people are dying to give quotes to? No? Then you need to write a really nice personalised letter flattering them and asking for a quote. They’ll need to read the e-book first too. They are not just going to lend their names to any old thing.

  180. FloralsForever*

    Corporate Credit Card policies and Real Life

    I’m always a little late to this Friday commenting party (thanks sillycon valley – CA and a late start time!), but still hoping some of you lovely folks can chime in.

    I’m in mid-level finance for a not-finance company, and was recently tasked with handling the corporate card for my site. It’s partially to track spending, and partially to control spend and how we purchase items, as we are not adhering to some (loose) policies. Now, my higher ups want me to put together a CC policy first draft because I’m limiting use here on site, and it will be easier to change card usage with a policy, rather than just talk. I’m sure what I’m drafting will eventually be reviewed and approved by QA/legal.

    So, does anyone have any interesting – good, bad, pretty, ugly, downright weird or very clever – policies or usages for their corporate cards?

    1. Alianora*

      A few developments have been really frustrating in my office recently: we cannot take interview candidates out to lunch anymore unless we pay for it out of pocket, and our employer won’t pay for our parking expenses if we have to travel to our sister worksite for work purposes (which is especially frustrating because it’s our employer who’s charging us to park in the first place.)

      1. FloralsForever*

        That parking thing is a little too much, honestly. I would think that would fall under something like mileage. We have a travel policy that’s pretty reasonable, and I’m piggy backing off of that.

        1. Alianora*

          Right. This is something I’d avoid, definitely don’t recommend!

          The taking candidates to lunch thing isn’t quite as bad, but I do think it doesn’t give a good impression.

          Otherwise our policies are pretty reasonable. We have guidelines for everything and a designated person to process transactions, who we need to send all receipts to.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I would be very surprised as a candidate to find that my interview lunch was not being paid for, especially if I were invited and/or the interview were scheduled over the traditional lunch timeframe of (roughly) 11 am – 1 pm. At our company that would definitely be an approved use of the card.

        We are strongly discouraged from any personal charges. You can theoretically do it as a one-off but you will be required to provide an explanation, and once could easily be an accident. More than once is a big issue and I know someone who was either fired or strongly encouraged to leave after several infractions around corporate card abuse. (Pro-tip: do not use card to pay rent on your apartment, and definitely don’t do this again after receiving a written warning about doing this once already.)

    2. De Minimis*

      Fellow CA finance person here!

      My current job is way too loose with one of our corporate cards. We have several cards, most are for individual managers but we have one with a higher limit that is technically for the CFO, but has turned into the catch-all card people use if they either don’t have access to any other card or if their credit limit is too low. It’s gotten to the point where most of the employees are able to use it online because they’ve all needed it at one point or another and their browsers have saved the card information. Every month I have to track down and figure out who charged what, and make phone calls to the phone numbers listed on the statement.

      Everything has always been above board as far as the actual charges, but it’s lousy internal control. I’ve been told to establish a policy where written manager approval will be required from anyone who uses the card, but at best the approvals will be obtained after the fact since people are still able to freely use the card. I don’t have the authority to forbid people from keeping the card information on their browsers. If I could, I would just have the CFO card reissued with a new number, and not give it out to anyone. If they needed to charge something, they’d have to get written permission and then the CFO or maybe me or some other finance employee could make the charge for them.

      In a previous job, the biggest headache was the Executive Director buying personal items with the points on their card. There was nothing wrong with it [she paid the required fee each year out of pocket for participation in the points program, and always reimbursed us in a timely fashion] but the accounting part was always a mess.

      1. FloralsForever*

        Yes, this is my issue here. The office manager used to have the corporate card, and it was used as a catch-all. Operations would like to use mine as a catch all, but I’m supposed to limit its use. For example, setting office and kitchen supplies on a regular inventory system, rather than frantically ordering from amazon every two days.

        Saving cards in browsers is a very good point. Basically, do we want to throw this card number around or not? I was prompted because someone tried to order me to leave the card in the front desk over the weekend and I was like WHOA WHOA WHOA. Saving it in browsers might be the same idea.

    3. Catsaber*

      I don’t know if this would apply or not, but there’s a sort-of silly thing that my workplace does for booking flights. Since sometimes this is done in other places via the corporate card, I thought I’d share.

      I work for a state university, and since much of our revenue is tax dollars, we have to be “good stewards of of the tax payers’ money.” I agree with this principle, but sometimes they can go overboard (like Guacamole Bob! look him up). So we use a self-serve travel booking website for booking airfare – you pop in your details and it returns flights, and you put together your flight combo and then it calculates the final cost. I almost always do a direct flight, because I don’t want to spend a day+ travelling within the US when a 2-3 hour direct flight will do. The direct flights are usually more expensive – but for the flights I look at, it’s usually a difference of $10 -20. But the stupid travel system will pop up this HUGE text box with this long speech that’s like, “The flights you picked are more costly at $11.47 more than [long-ass multiple-layover flight just to get two states over that would cost more in per diem and hotel stays]. Are you sure you want to continue? Remember, we have to be good stewards of the tax payers’ dollars and blah blah blah blah.” I can continue and book the flights, but it flags my bookings in red and I have to enter an “explanation” of why I chose to waste $11.47 of the tax payers’ dollars and my boss has to sign off on it.

      So my point is – if this is applicable, you should probably have a policy in there regarding when someone can purchase the more “expensive” thing, and how to judge what is the most beneficial thing to do – just because something costs less doesn’t mean it’s the “cheapest” thing to do.

      1. FloralsForever*

        OMG… *inserts horrified face emoji*

        Yes, this type of stuff is already built into the travel policy. I’m piggy backing off of that for a start.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Not just university. I have to do that at my very large for-profit company. The last “cost effective” flight combo option was several hours longer, involving a connection, and the cost savings was <$20, and I still had to justify it. Fortunately we also have a drop-down menu of common justifications, including a) would incur travel costs elsewhere (e.g. the cab from the alternate airport would be $100 vs $20 from the target airport), or b) excessively prolongs travel. I don't think anyone has to usually sign off on it, just flags it for general review by the travel people.

    4. London Calling*

      As someone who has been handed a similar task after a less than stellar expenses audit….expense procedures need to be straightforward, transparent and at the same time prescriptive and detailed, because in my 20 odd years of expenses experience, give those blighters out there a loophole and they’ll exploit it for their benefit.

      Off the top of my head, I’d have what the card can be used for, what it can’t be used for, the timeframe in which you expect expenses to be submitted, what sort of receipts you want, how any misuse (‘oooh, sorry, used the wrong card in the supermarket on Saturday!’ – yes been there, heard it) is to be repaid and by when, who sets the limits and who can change them (and expect some politicking around that issue (‘but miss! she’s got £ 10,000 and I’ve only got £ 5,000 and I NEED £ 10,000!’ – yes, heard all that as well). And of course, the sanctions for abuse up to and including cancellation and withdrawal of the card from the employee if necessary. Have done that, as well.

      Plus I’d add how expenses on the card are to be submitted and will be paid. When I was doing this we had a direct debit with the bank and people had to send in their receipts so I could check for among other things, any rogue/undocumented spending (the good old days before electronic expense systems).

      What I did was google for templates for expenses. Mine aren’t specifically credit cards because my company doesn’t use them, but I bet if you google for ‘template for credit cards expenses’ you’ll find loads, plus advice.

    5. Close Bracket*

      I just learned that my employer pays the corporate credit card bill when they get around to paying it, which may or may not correspond to your billing cycle, and you get to eat the late fees. You are required to use the card for all travel expenses, too.

  181. Sindirella*

    I work in a very “flat” department, but my boss is really supportive and wants to make changes to help support our teams growth. An opportunity has arisen to rearrange how our department is structured and 2 higher level positions are set to open. There are 2 obvious choices in our department, so I feel like this has been set up to allow myself and the other candidate to grow. Very exciting, all good things. However, I’m feeling a little unsure about myself. About a month or two ago, I completely broke down at work in front of my boss. We worked through the issue and came out way better for it, but the fact remains that I was not able to keep my composure. I’ve been here almost 4 years, and this wasn’t the first time I’ve cried at work, but it was definitely the worst. I have been given increasing levels of responsibility and been given an office (even though I wasn’t the most senior on staff at the time), so I feel like my boss is able to look past my flaws and see my strengths, but I still feel like this will affect my chances of this growth opportunity.
    I’m hoping for a little encouragement that it’s okay and we’re all human and I still have a shot at getting this promotion.

    1. Dana B.S.*

      Give yourself a break! You haven’t actually gotten any blow-back whatsoever from the breakdown.

      I would also recommend reading and re-reading every post and comment relating to crying at work here on AAM. Because you’re not alone and there’s lots of great advice.

      Therapy could also be a good option. Good luck! :)

    2. EJane*

      oh, my gosh, you are okay. The only thing that would make me hesitate would be if you broke down in front of the entire company, or if you broke down and then shut down. To hit a low point–and we have ALL been there–and then keep moving through it without hiding and feeling shame is a powerful, powerful measure of strength and emotional intelligence. It means that you’re willing to engage with difficult emotions, yours and others, and to problem-solve. It mean that you don’t run from vulnerability–which means that you can treat the people you supervise with compassion, because you’ve been there.
      and i GUARANTEE your boss has, at some point (probably multiple points) done the same. We all have days where it just gets to us and we break down. This does not discount you.

    3. Existentialista*

      Everybody cries! The important thing is how you managed it afterward, so as long as you got back to your usual capable self, I don’t think this will count at all.

  182. SI*

    Hi everyone!
    Currently, I am re-working my resume to create achievement statements. My current position has been part-time since I quit my previous job a little over a year ago. My mom has needed extra help with my 88-year-old grandmother. Since I’m part-time, I help take her to doctors appointments, grocery shopping, and errands. We think within the next 6 months she will have to move to assisted living.

    Currently, I work part-time for a company that provides various services to airlines across the country. My position involves security screening for privately chartered flights. How in the world would I go about creating achievement statements for something like this? Our training and procedures are set by the government. I technically can’t go into great detail on my resume about what the job involves. We can’t innovate anything, create something new, or improve procedures. I took the “What would happen if I didn’t come to work approach?” That wasn’t very helpful, they would have to get somebody in to replace me. I took the “What happens if I suck at my job approach?” to think of something. That didn’t help either because chances are I wouldn’t have my job. Basically, we show up, follow procedures, and try to make everything as painless as possible. I am one of the supervisors. That adds a few more responsibilities but leaves me in the same boat.

    My part-time job isn’t really related to the types of positions I’m currently researching but I can’t have a gap on my resume. I’m actually trained as an archivist but was never able to find employment in my field. I’ve been highlighting the customer service aspects of my previous positions along with my research and organization skills.

    It’s been frustrating trying to figure out how to put this on my resume without it sounding like a listing of job duties. The only thing I’ve come up with is “ensuing everything is handled with care and complaint with procedures” I need a different perspective.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I struggle with this also but I liked AAM’s advice to say how you did/do the job compared to someone else. Show how you go above and beyond they way someone else does it. “Quickly learned federally required security protocols.” Something like that.

      1. SI*

        That’s a good way to think about it. Even if I just list the position and company on my resume, it would help with explaining the position briefly to a potential employer.

    2. Colette*

      Do you do your job faster than others (i.e. handle more request)? Do you make it easier for your clients? Do you take the harder issues than others on the team? Did you come up with a way to distribut5e the requests more fairly?

      1. SI*

        Some more good questions to think about. I usually try to rotate people around. If a team member did task A, I might have them to task B the next time. We usually try to accommodate requests as best we can, it just depends on the situation.

    3. Dana B.S.*

      You can have a gap on your resume as long as it isn’t several years. But another option is that you can just list it without added detail – it’s not the job that will help you get a new job. Just say, “July 2018-present – Part-time Supervisor at Company” and then the rest of your jobs with achievement statements. If the rest of your resume is strong, then why waste space at the top of your resume on a boring job?

      1. SI*

        I haven’t actually considered just listing it and not providing any detail. It would save me a headache because everything else has 4 bullet points. That way, I could just give a brief explanation when asked.

  183. PublicEnemy*

    Does anyone have a job where they feel like the enemy all the time? How do you cope? HR, admin, C-suite? I’m in HR and struggling with this.

    1. Construction Safety*

      Yep.
      I’m at the point I just provide the rules and ask “What did you expect?” when the client calls us on something.
      I mean, we can’t even stop the female staff from walking thru the construction warehouse in sandals.

    2. DarthVelma*

      I can empathize. I was an internal auditor in a state agency for 10 years. Convincing people we weren’t the enemy was a difficult and constant uphill slog. Mostly I reminded myself that it didn’t matter what other people thought, my job was to help the agency run better and that a lot of my work ultimately helped the children in our care. So if the place you work has a mission you care about, I would suggest finding ways your work furthers that mission and reminding yourself of how you are helping that cause.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      My ex girlfriend worked for Lee Hecht Harrison and she was on a team that did a ton of ‘workforce transformations’. She had some absolutely brutal stories for me.

  184. BlueUnicorn*

    I saw a comment earlier about dealing with an employee who uses sick time every 3 weeks…

    I have a co-worker who calls out approximately every week, or it’s Aug and he’s been out over 30 days…. The situation is so ridiculous because I think everyone wants him fired but no one is taking action to do it even though I know the higher ups have tried. I know they have FMLA coverage on some days but can someone explain to me how it protects someone to this degree? Because it seems like HR is scared to let him go at this point since they’re the only ones resisting a termination.

    Our policy is basically 10 no shows and you get terminated, so no one understands how he can have 30 and still be here. It’s a big strain for the team everytime we need to cover him because there are time constraints for his particular job that needs to get done everyday.

    I’m just wondering if termination is the logical solution even if they have FMLA protection. He’s also late about 60% of the time he does show up to work and put on PIP without great results.

    This is the gossipy part: is there a way to abuse FMLA leave? Do you need a doctor’s note to claim it? Because the excuses he comes up with are usually so bad and not related to health at all. Does he have to say something different to HR vs us? Because I seriously doubt oversleeping, being dizzy, or having car troubles should be covered….but they have been. And don’t count against his 10 no shows that go towards termination…

      1. BlueUnicorn*

        (Sometimes there’s no call. My boss has to call him multiple times before getting an answer).

        The policy is actually 10 unscheduled PTO use since we don’t have separate sick times… But basically they’ve used all their PTO as unplanned PTO…

        And using a lot of extra unpaid time off…

        I would consider all these no shows since we never find out if he’ll be here until after his shift starts…and waiting an hour to see if he’s late, then trying to contact him to see if we need coverage… But yes, the unplanned pto should have resulted in termination by now.

    1. fposte*

      He can tell you whatever he wants. He’s under no obligation to give you truthful information or any at all. An employer is allowed but not required to request medical certification for FMLA.

      FMLA provides you with 480 hours per year; that’s generally 60 days. If his absences are FMLA-protected, he’s not gone beyond what your employer is legally obligated to provide. He cannot legally be required for taking FMLA-protected leave. He can be terminated for needing leave should he exhaust his PTO/FMLA (assuming non-discriminatory treatment). He can be terminated for reasons *other* than FMLA absence while taking FMLA, and there are situations where his failure to provide certification when requested could allow for termination.

      As WellRed says, it doesn’t sound like we’re talking no shows if he’s calling in. However, if he’s also on a PIP you may be in the territory where management is afraid to fire him for other reasons while he’s on FMLA. I would focus less on the co-worker and more on your manager–the problem isn’t that Bob sucks, the problem is that your management isn’t giving you all enough support to get the job done in light of Bob’s absences. Imagine in your head that he has a terribly sick child and was gone for the same amount of time–your management would still need to help you get stuff done in light of his absences.

    2. Anon Uni Employee*

      Yes, you can abuse FMLA, but it’s none of your business, and you shouldn’t need a doctor’s note if you have intermittent FMLA.

      If your higher-ups have decided that they can live with it, then suck it up and leave it alone. It’s extremely rare for someone to be fired for tardiness, too. Unless you are an air traffic controller, or there’s a life-or-death situation, that’s not a fireable offense if the work is getting done. Flexibility on arrival time may also be an accommodation. If you need to talk to your boss about reorganizing your personal workload, that would be one thing. Otherwise, you’re just making yourself (-ves) miserable fretting over something that’s not really your business. Find something else to talk about.

      1. BlueUnicorn*

        Management is actually the one wanting him gone but HR is resisting.

        I’m rather neutral about this but these are the points management are telling his team. I’m just trying to see why it’s happening if they want him gone…so thanks for letting me know he’s covered.

        1. Natalie*

          It’s pretty unprofessional of his managers to slag him off to his coworkers. If they’re having a problem with getting the HR department, to sign off on terminating him, they need to keep that between managers and HR.

          1. EngineerMom*

            I agree, that’s pretty unprofessional.

            Someone close to me has had to use FMLA on an unpredictable basis to care for a teen child in crisis over the past year, so I am definitely in the camp of “none of your d*mn business” for when people use FMLA – my loved one should not have to disclose the details of her situation to the greater population in order to justify the FMLA leave, that’s between her and her manager.

            The issue here isn’t Bob – it’s how the manager(s) are handling the situation.

            1. BlueUnicorn*

              “Bob” is the one happily disclosing all his problem. Bob talks about his problems when he’s back the next day…and no one wants to listen. Everyone else is to the point of avoiding this person because they see all the excuses as “lies”. I really don’t mind covering but it’s harder since everyone is a department of one, so asking other departments to cover is more difficult… Management usually just asks someone to cover and that’s the end of it. They’ve done a lot in accommodations (start time changed twice to 2 hrs later, tardiness is not counted even tho there’s a limit of 5per year, etc). Really, I think everyone has been trying to be as accommodating as possible but it’s been 2 yrs and I think people are just tired of it.

              Really sensitive subject for a lot of people I know. I just wanted to know why HR is only worried about unpaid leave when there were real performance issues too to consider especially considering we’re in an at will position. I thought no excuse was even needed.

              1. Natalie*

                The issue is avoiding the appearance (or reality, it’s not out of the question) of FMLA retaliation. Firing someone because they are exercising on of their labor rights an exception to at will employment, it is specifically illegal. If the company has not done a good job of documenting the issues, or has a history of not firing people for these same issues, it does pose a genuine risk to the company to finally fire someone only when they’re using FMLA.

                1. BlueUnicorn*

                  Yes, thank you. I think that’s what they’re trying to avoid. Management is documenting everything to build a case and avoid anything related to FMLA bc there are a lot of performance issues as is. They’ve fired people before but those were strictly low performance reasons without complications… No one has had these same issues so I think the reason why they have to work so much harder on this case IS because this is a sensitive matter and they’re being careful and trying everything else first.

                  I think the workplace is very accommodating, we have unofficial flextime but when you’re 4hrs late without contact it doesn’t really work out. This role needs to be done everyday. I don’t blame management because you really can’t hire someone even part time when you won’t know when you’re needed to work. I’m sure if it’s split into 2 part time jobs it could work out but then you’d need Bob to agree to be part time… And I don’t see that happening since they’ll promise to be there everyday. Maybe I’ll suggest the part time option anyway.

                  I’m more aware of the FMLA rules and why management is behaving the way they have, so thanks guys.

    3. Utoh!*

      If he’s actually calling out sick that’s one thing, but if he’s using FMLA for car trouble (and admitting to it!) that’s quite another. I don’t doubt people do abuse FMLA, but you can only get it though filling out paperwork and a doctor’s sign-off (which can probably be fraudulently acquired too). My husband has FMLA due to back issues as his job can be pretty physical at times, he uses it infrequently but is also a top performer/contributor so no one bats an eye. He had to follow very strict guidelines in order to even get FMLA.

      1. Thoughts*

        It’s possible he is telling coworkers he had car trouble when it was actually a medical thing that he doesn’t want to talk about. Leave it to HR to figure out.

    4. H.C.*

      Since you’re not his manager, it pretty much is a case of “eyes on your own homework” – it’s between him & his manager (& HR, if FMLA is involved) about how his leave is taken or managed. Ditto for performance reviews, unless it’s a “360” type where your input is sought.

      The part where you can speak up about is if his absence impacts your work (e.g. you needed his review on a document before it gets finalized, or he was absent on a day when he’s supposed to staff an event).

      1. BlueUnicorn*

        Everyday is important since it’s a role that needs to be done everyday. So it impacts those who cover since they need to backlog their jobs and do this one. But yes thanks, I’ve kept out of it and just wanted some opinions about it. Everything that’s been said is just supporting doing nothing and wait out management/HR… Which is what’s been happening for 2 years so I was just curious.

    5. Zombie Unicorn*

      Oversleeping or feeling dizzy could be related to a medical issue. Car trouble not so much.

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      My cats death ended up being FMLA related, for adoption no less. Someone in your position wouldn’t have all the details, so it’s best to be kind and not speculate.

  185. Is it Friday yet?*

    I started a new job 3 weeks ago managing all of my company’s digital media. As one of my first projects, I created a spreadsheet of metrics from all of their campaigns that have been sent this year. My boss, the CEO and entire Executive team were really impressed and had me present it in my first week. This week we had a project manager start, so I provided her with my report since the plan is to keep it updated. She stripped ALL of the data out and basically renamed the columns. I’m so confused as to why she would even do this. How would you respond to her?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Why did you give her the report in a format where she could change things? Put a password/read-only requirement on it!

      Did she save a new copy when she stripped everything out of it?!?!? I’m confused as to if she just messed with her personal copy you provided [which then how would you know it was changed] or with your one and only file that is in a shared drive?!

      1. Is it Friday yet?*

        I still have my copy, but she’s a project manager, so my hope was that she would update this moving forward. I never would’ve imagined she’d remove historical data. She sent me her version to “review,” and I just don’t get it. She took all of the important stuff out and left only the column titles but made unimportant changes. For example, changed category to “topic.” Broke date and time out into two columns instead of one. I asked her about adding in the rest of the data, and she just added in data from the three most recent campaigns vs the whole year. I’m truly stumped as to why she would think this is an improvement.

        1. Havarti*

          Some people honestly don’t know how to make a spreadsheet and just do the Excel version of arranging deck chairs on the Titanic so people will think they did something useful. If she’s supposed to be responsible for the spreadsheet going forward, I suppose she can arrange it however badly she wants. If not, I would keep my own version and only share a PDF version for review. Maybe update her terrible one concurrently if required to do so.

          1. Is it Friday yet?*

            Bahahaha thanks! I needed that comedic relief. Deck chairs on the Titanic is definitely what I got back.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The good part is that she was all “Hey review this” because that’s your in to say “Yeah, I reviewed it and you took out tons of data that is really for historical purposes…you want to keep this sheet intact. If you want to break out the latest 3 campaigns, you should make your own spreadsheet for your own purposes, not do it on this sheet we are expecting to keep an on going record.”

          This little bit of information makes me really wonder if she knows what she’s doing or if she’s over there shooting from the hip haphazardly, since she’s new and being so obtuse.

        3. Zombie Unicorn*

          Topic is more plain English.

          Time of day could be a useful metric.

          She might not be making it worse!

    2. fposte*

      Depends on what I wanted to have happen and where my rank was in relation to hers. Will you need to keep updating her version of the spreadsheet? Then I’d ask her if she’d mind if I reverted to it. Is she keeping up the data and not you? I’d let the column names thing go. Are you wondering about the fate of the data you gathered? Ask her if there was a problem with it that you could fix to make sure it’s still usable. (And I’d keep my own copy just in case.)

    3. Close Bracket*

      Will you have to update this spreadsheet going forward? If not, let it go. Yeah, it sucks that she changed all your hard work, but when you hand something off, the next person will do it their way.

      If yes, that’s a little different. You want to understand the changes. Respond in the spirit of understanding the changes — note, NOT in the spirit of arguing about the changes.

      “Hey Manager [note: use whatever greeting you would use with the manager], do you have some time to tell me about the changes you made to the spreadsheet? It’s pretty different from what I put together, and I want to make sure I understand how to keep it up to date going forward.”

  186. Siege*

    I’m so burnt out at work. I feel like curling up and screaming most of the time. I’m job searching, but honestly I’m terrified that I’m going to feel like this no matter what job it is. Like I’m just not cut out for the working world. Any words of encouragement would be great – I’m pretty young (just a couple years into the workforce) and I hope these feelings won’t follow me around forever.

    1. Havarti*

      Make a list to identify what makes you feel burned out (long hours, bad commute, toxic boss, etc.) so you know what to look for or avoid in your job hunt. Not every job is going to make you scream. It won’t be perfect but it can be a lot better. Good luck on the job search!

    2. Small but Fierce*

      I’ve been working for almost 5 years and can definitely relate! Unfortunately I can mostly commiserate, but I will say that taking the time to make sure that the culture and manager you’re going to in your next move are good fits. I can’t say I’m happy to be at work, but having a flexible job with a supportive manager has made a difference in the degree of dread I feel every Sunday before work.

      Another thing is try to invest in your interests outside work. I’m definitely a work to live person, and reminding myself that I work to travel, go out to eat, etc. reminds me why I’m doing it. I also recently invested in self care (i.e. therapy), which has helped with work-related anxiety as well.

    3. Bananatiel*

      If it’s any consolation, the longer you work the easier it gets to identify what you need out of a workplace to survive it. Havarti’s advice is spot-on– it helps a lot to identify what triggers the curling up and screaming feeling. Then you can work toward tackling them. Sometimes you don’t need to switch jobs (commute can be fixed, aspects of your job can be changed), sometimes you do (responsibilities are the wrong fit entirely, the culture is irreparable). If it feels like it’s *everything*– make a list and pick out what’s the worst and focus on at least making incremental changes. Seems like it wouldn’t make a big difference but subtle switches have had a big impact on me and my overall mental health in the past.

    4. EngineerMom*

      I’m in the same boat, but a few years down the road. I’ve worked full-time, part-time, and spent 6 years as a stay-at-home mom, and here’s my two cents:

      1. People matter. Working with a dynamic, collaborative team can turn even very mundane work into something much more enjoyable. My sister and I went to the same college, got the same degree (mechanical engineering), but worked for very different managers at two different companies for our first jobs out of college. Her manager was warm, encouraging, organized, and generally a good manager. Mine was terrible – I didn’t know what I was doing, and received very little guidance, just generalized lectures on “what it means to be a good engineer” (which is hysterical in hindsight, as my manager wasn’t an engineer and was terrible at managing engineers, so terrible he was moved to a completely different department). She excelled at her job. I floundered, despite an excellent academic record.

      2. Save up and get out as soon as you can. I stayed too long under that terrible manager, and it has had a lasting impact on my confidence in my abilities as an engineer. Your mental health and self-confidence aren’t worth it.

      3. When looking for a new job, look at contract work. It’s like having a chance to “date” your job before committing, instead of diving in like its an arranged marriage. You’ll know it’s a temporary situation that you can endure if you feel the need to bail, or you can have that extra motivation to prove yourself worth hiring into a permanent position.

      4. If you do have a long commute, do as much as you can to shorten it. My favorite job was 5 miles from my house – I could bike to work when the weather was decent, and even when it wasn’t, it was all of 10 minutes to drive, 15 if I got caught by the train. So much more time in the evenings and mornings to spend doing things *I* wanted to do.

    5. EJane*

      It’s really, really hard to be young and getting used to business culture, especially if working regularly wasn’t part of your high school or college years. I’m 26, and I remember that feeling very vividly.

      In addition to the great advice from others, I want to underscore the importance of work-life balance and taking care of yourself. Work can be SO draining, and making sure that you are giving yourself the resources to be well-fed, well-slept and well-vented will make a huge difference.
      Also, identify what it is about your job that burns you out so badly, if you can. Is it management? The tasks? The hours? People WILL make or break a company, and i have worked places where the work was great, the pay was good, and the coworkers and my manager made me want to run screaming out of the building.

  187. Darkened Meadow*

    I am completing a PDF job application. However, whenever I type in certain information, like a reference’s name or address, all the other fields change, too. So now, I have three references who are the same person, with the same address, and it looks as if we live together because my address changes, too! Is there a way I can fix this or is it a problem with the file itself? Thank you!

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      It’s a problem with the file itself. It sounds like they just copied and pasted the fields without actually bothering to rename them. This is annoying. If you can contact someone at the company, you can give them a heads-up about this.

      It’s also possible the form became corrupted as you downloaded it. Can you try downloading it again just to verify that this is not the case?

      I’ve created a lot of forms with Acrobat, and it does take a lot of testing to get everything correct.

      1. Bananatiel*

        I’m a designer and can confirm it’s likely the file itself and the way it was created– which is really annoying and laziness on the creator’s part.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      UGH, this just happened to me when I filled out a form for my new chiropractor’s office and it was SO annoying. All the phone number and address fields were the same, even though they were for different purposes. I finally just printed the form and hand-filled those fields.

  188. Coalea*

    I recently resigned from my position. My last day with my current employer will be August 30; therefore, my health insurance coverage will end on August 31. Coverage under my new employer will not go into effect until September 16. I’m trying to figure out if I need to enroll in COBRA for the 2-week period between insurance plans. I know that I will need to refill at least 1 prescription during that window. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Contact your doctors and explain you need a refill, and why. I’d make it 2 refills in case. See if you need appt with doctor or if the PA can do it, or just over the phone.

    2. Bananatiel*

      Maybe not possible depending on the drugs and the flexibility of your doctor/pharmacist but… any chance you could get the prescriptions refilled early to bridge the gap? Especially since it’s only two weeks. I hate dealing with insurance so switching between them that fast just seems like a recipe for disaster based on my own past experience.

      1. Enough*

        Usually you can get a refill a week before you finish the current one. I actually got refills early of take for the rest of time prescription so I have a cushion of at least month.

        1. Coalea*

          Not possible for these prescriptions, unfortunately. I’ve tried to refill early before when I had a vacation coming up and they wouldn’t do it, not even 1 day early.

    3. Thankful for AAM*

      I’d pay for the COBRA coverage if it is at all possible. The one time I did that, I got very sick and needed to be hoapitalized and I was very glad I had paid for it!

      1. Natalie*

        For such a short gap, you don’t need to pay for it “just in case” – you have 60 days to opt for COBRA coverage, and when you do it’s retroactive to the day your coverage ended. All you have to do is not specifically decline the coverage, just let the enrollment period lapse if you don’t need it.

        1. Coalea*

          I think part of my question is, if I go to the pharmacy and refill a prescription at some point during that 2-week window and I haven’t signed up for COBRA, what will happen? My suspicion is that the pharmacist’s computer will alert him or her that I don’t have insurance anymore and I will have to pay out of pocket. I can then, if I opt into COBRA at some point in that 60-day window, submit a claim for that expense. Does that sound right?

          1. Natalie*

            Yep, that’s pretty much it. Unless the prescription is something new (or apparently insulin, sigh) it will probably be cheaper than a month of COBRA. Your prescriber might also participate in some kind of discount program for uninsured patients that would lower the price. Save your receipt, and then if you opt into COBRA for some other reason you just submit a claim at that time.

    4. Construction Safety*

      IIRC, you have 30 days to file for COBRA. You could roll the dice. With my last change, I didn’t even have the 3rd party COBRA info until about 2-3 weeks after I left.

      Alternatively, you could ask the new company to pay for a month of COBRA, though that should have been done at the negotiating stage.

      1. Natalie*

        60, and the clock doesn’t start until they actually send your notice out which can have a little lag time as well.

    5. Fikly*

      I’d be more concerned about making sure you have coverage for unexpected medical costs. I did not expect to hit my head on a freezer and concuss myself, but damn was that expensive!

  189. Small but Fierce*

    Thoughts on changing your job title on LinkedIn/resume to match what you actually did?

    I recently got promoted to a Product Manager role, but my prior role as an Operations Specialist looks unrelated so it’s hard to tell that this was a clear in-line promotion. I’d like to state that I was an Associate Product Manager, but clarify that the internal title was an Operations Specialist as a bullet point.

    Is this misleading? My manager referred to me internally as an Associate Product Manager multiple times.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      There are posts on this in the archives. The general idea is no, but you can put what you actually do in parentheses.

  190. Anon Uni Employee*

    Dishonest boss. Tattletale culture. Things get changed without explanation, and then staff are criticized for drawing the wrong conclusions. The suck-ups get big raises and promotions. Nobody is friends with anybody else, at least not for long.

    Is any of this normal?

    1. EngineerMom*

      No, not normal!

      Dishonesty is a big issue, as is the tattletale culture, which is probably related to the “staff are criticized for drawing the wrong conclusions”, as a that kind of culture breeds defensiveness, not collaboration.

    2. EJane*

      no! no no no no.

      Honesty and communication from management is an obligation, not a privilege or a bonus. I got very, very stern with my very young manager when he changed the wording of the disciplinary policy without telling anyone on staff, because lack of trust is the fastest way to destroy a workplace, and trust was not one of the strong suits of this company before I started.

      Get out. If you can (and I understand being stuck, I really, really do). If you can’t, I strongly recommend a. a therapist (THAT SHIT WILL MESS WITH YOU) and b. finding ways to fill your off-work hours with things that bring you joy–or at least peace and contentment.

      1. Anon Uni Employee*

        I’ve applied for some jobs but no offers so far. I’m starting to worry that having this place on my resume is hurting me. We have a lot of ex-employees out in the workplace who talk to people who talk to people. Curiously, we have trouble attracting applicants to replace them.

        I’ve been going to therapy for about 8 months, and I think I’ll quit. Every time I try to get some feedback on things at work my therapist says “what is wrong with that woman?” (my boss) Hobbies look like my best bet. My boss wants me to be available on the weekends, but I put my foot down.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yuck, unless your coworkers are elementary schoolers, not at all normal.

      There are some places that are prone to backbiting like that but that doesn’t make it okay or right.

      1. Anon Uni Employee*

        The best part is that our raises are based on how well we suck up compared to our tattle-tale colleagues, erm… based on our performance compared to objective standards ;-)

  191. Because I'm Batman*

    Can you list (with their permission) a senior peer in your current department as a reference? The way we work, they’re pretty familiar with how I work and the quality of my work since they frequently evaluate it as part of our internal process.

    1. Catsaber*

      Yes, I did that the last time I was job searching. She had been training me and supervising my work for almost 3 years, and honestly she knew my work quality and what I actually did far better than my actual boss.

    2. Dana B.S.*

      Yes. It doesn’t work if they specifically ask for supervisors only, but for general references – it’s a great idea! I often list non-senior peers & even a protege once.

    3. Alianora*

      Yes! I did this, and it worked out really well. She was at the director level but not in my immediate chain of command, so in some ways I think employers might even have put more weight on her recommendation than my actual manager from the same job. As long as they can speak to your work, I say go for it.

  192. EngineerMom*

    I work for a fairly large company, and something happened recently that just felt… weird.

    Our EHS (Environment, Health, and Safety) group has regular monthly meetings that cover topics all across the board, from lab safety to not leaving pets in cars in the summer. Work-life balance and stress management are frequent topics.

    On that note, they invited a speaker to come and present about mindfulness during the monthly meeting (this kind of thing isn’t unusual – we had a presentation by a waste collection rep about what can and can’t be recycled or composted). I was expecting a presentation about what mindfulness is, its benefits, perhaps examples of ways to incorporate it into daily life, or even ways to engage in mindfulness at work, or different resources to explore.

    What I was not expecting was a presentation about chakras and energy centers, followed by guided meditation complete with a crystal singing bowl, during which we were encouraged to picture a “spiritual figure of your choice” talking with us in our “special comforting place” that we were supposed to be imagining ourselves in.

    I’m a practicing Episcopalian and a regular yoga practitioner, but this whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way, like having a pastor come and lead prayer. At work. Adding to the discomfort was the fact that this happened after we had all already been sitting in (uncomfortable) conference room chairs that squeaked horribly anytime anyone moved a muscle, so it was very difficult to extricate oneself or even change position without drawing a lot of attention.

    Am I nuts, or did this cross a line, even for a company that prides itself on providing a healthy working environment?

    1. Dana B.S.*

      Wow. Just wow. Where did they find this person? Did they not provide expectations or vet them at all?

      1. EngineerMom*

        Actually, she works for a company that runs our on-site wellness program (she’s an therapist and wellness educator). She does run guided meditation at a facility that’s near our on-site gym, but there was a lot more “spiritual” aspect to the presentation than I was expecting, even knowing her background.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Is there a way you and your coworkers can provide feedback on how inappropriate this presentation was? Surely you weren’t the only person taken aback.

    3. LilacLily*

      oh god I cringed really hard on my seat. you’re right, that was super inapropriate. I bet there were several people uncomfortable with the whole thing but who just couldn’t get up and leave.

      “spiritual figure of your choice”?! I am screaming

    4. Fikly*

      This seems really not ok! What about people who do not have a spiritual figure of their choice?

  193. Jaybeetee*

    I’m theoretically participating in a language twinning program through work (where I and a colleague of a different language pair up and practice in each other’s second language). Except for the third month running, the person I was paired with has been consistently too busy to make the sessions. At first I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Then she was on leave for most of a month. Now, she’s in an acting position and apparently constantly swamped. I let it all slide, then today she suddenly emailed me asking if we could meet for a session. Since I don’t have much going on today, I said sure – only for her to cancel less than an hour later!

    This person is not in any position of authority with me, but she is older, and her position is higher-level than mine. I don’t want to create bad blood, but… I sorta want to tell her that obviously she doesn’t have time for this program, and we shouldn’t bother trying to keep it up. At this point it’s been a few weeks since we’ve even met. It gets more frustrating because my job is such that I’m not always at my computer – more than once she’s cancelled relatively last-minute, I haven’t seen the messages because I’ve been doing something else, and I wind up waiting for her. Any advice or scripts for approaching this would be welcome!

    1. Colette*

      I’m confused about whether she is cancelling every session or just once a month (but keeping other sessions). One thing you could ask would be whether there’s a time you could meet that would be easier for her to keep.

      But you also can decide you’re done with it and just tell her it’s not working out so you’re going to bow out.

      1. Jaybeetee*

        Pardon me – we’re supposed to meet for 30 minutes twice a week. In recent weeks, I hadn’t even tried to schedule sessions with her. Prior to that, she was either cancelling/rescheduling nearly every time, or unable to commit to a time to begin with. We’ve even discussed meeting over lunch, but that hasn’t happened either.

        I had just let it fall by the wayside, as it is optional. I was surprised when she contacted me about meeting up today – only to then cancel 40 minutes later.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      That’s so frustrating! I would go to the program and asked to be matched up with someone who has time to participate. After that, I would send the original partner an email that you’ve made alternate plans to continue in the program. If she suddenly finds the time, she can get another partner and try again. But I would definitely not let her keep promising and cancelling, that’s not fair to you and you’ll get nothing out of the program at this rate.

  194. annakarina1*

    I really wish I could go on a big vacation again. The biggest trip I’ve taken was when I went to Paris three years ago, it was my first overseas trip, I had only traveled within the U.S. and to Canada. I wish I could do that again, but I don’t think I’d be able to get a whole week off of work (I get some accrued time, but it’s not like automatic two weeks of vacation a year), I’d feel guilty taking a long plane ride and thinking about the environmental impact, and I don’t have money saved up for such a trip. I keep fantasizing about vacations when I feel bored at work, but a lot of it is escapist fantasy. I would likely want to go to Toronto for a long weekend, as the plane ride is only 90 minutes and I wouldn’t have to take off too much time. I went to Montreal last fall, though that was a work trip, so it didn’t feel like a vacation. I just want to be able to take a fun vacation again beyond rare weekend ones.

    1. Mid*

      I can’t help with the time-off thing, but you can buy carbon offsets for your plane ride, and you can get pretty cheap flights and accommodations if you shop around. I know Frontier and Spirit are both having pretty big fare sales, and I’m sure other airlines as well. You can set a price alert on the SkyScanner app to let you know when prices drop to/from a certain destination. You can possibly get Groupons in your destination city for cheaper entertainment/dining options. With planning, you don’t really need to save up that much money. Especially for a place like Toronto, which is relatively close (compared to Thailand or France, that is.)

      So basically, I think you should do it! Take a vacation!

  195. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    So it finally happened to me. I sent am email to the wrong person. I don’t even know how it happened because I double checked which window was open while I was typing! And I managed to send my CV and cover letter for company A to company B instead.

    I guess the bright side is that company B is my second choice. But aaaaargjhh. I have *never* done that before! I sent a quick “pardon me, I meant to send you this instead” but that’s one job I won’t be getting! :(

    1. valentine*

      This must happen occasionally. Are you sure they opened and read it straightaway? If not, I don’t see why they would open the original attachment or even read the original message.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Just seems that if you’re hiring for people for a specifically very detailed role, then this kind of mistake is not a great start. Plus I wasn’t actually ready to submit my application for company B yet but I felt compelled to send a follow-up ASAP so I scrambled to finish and submit the cover letter within a few minutes.

    2. mreasy*

      I hired someone who did this – we’re all human, and she was otherwise the ideal candidate for this senior role.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Well, as an unexpectedly quick update, company A contacted me to arrange an interview — on a Saturday! They said they were “very impressed” with my application!

      This NEVER happens to me.

  196. Emac*

    Just wondering if there are any commenters who work, or recently used to work, as dog trainers? Especially if you worked for yourself, but I’d love to talk to anyone with experience in the industry!

    1. Bry*

      I have… Be aware it is 100 percent a people training job… OK. Maybe 90 people 10 dogs. Ask away!

      1. Emac*

        Thanks for the response! I’m coming from a people teaching/coaching background, so I’m okay with the people training part. Mostly I’m just wondering where to start building my skills & experience.

        I’ve found lots of mostly online programs on becoming a dog trainer but it’s hard to know if any of them are worth the money. I’m also looking for jobs in kennels or doggy daycares that also offer training classes hoping to connect with local trainers that way, and maybe watch or assist in classes. And I’m volunteering with a dog rescue organization, but the majority of that is admin, not hands on working with dogs. There aren’t any organizations with physical shelters close enough for me to volunteer at, unfortunately. I know that working with my own dog or fostering dogs would probably be the easiest way to start, but until I find a job, I can’t financially do that.

        Is there any avenue I’m missing or that you would particularly recommend? Is there anything you wish you had known or done when you were first starting out? Thanks again, and I hope you’ll still see this!

  197. Mockingjay*

    *Mild irritant, not rant worthy. Just tired on a Friday.

    Save me from lazy managers who email me to ask if a work item in our tracking system has been updated to show progress. Dude you could look at it yourself.

    This is why I am giving yet another dog and pony show next week to the team on how to use the tracking system. Strangely, our industry is IT and sophisticated comms systems. You’d think the engineering staff could handle a simple SharePoint work item. Click to open, click a couple of dropdown fields, type a comment, click Save. Sigh.

  198. Matt*

    I recently started a new contract. Throughout the interview process I told the recruiter *four times* that I didn’t want to move forward. However, he he upped my rate significantly at one point to get me to accept, so I did. Immediately upon starting, I learned that many of the things I was told were completely untrue: there is extensive travel required (I am not in a position to agree to that — I’m a care taker), the onboarding was a nightmare and the team is rude. It’s exactly what I had been hoping to avoid. I regret telling the other companies I was interviewing with that I had accepted this offer, and actually reached out to a few to see if they would still consider me, but of course they’ve all moved on. It’s just awful. It is important to me to find a long term position and this is not the culture I want to be in. I’m disappointed and angry at myself most of all.

    But my biggest peeve is that — despite being cleared from two extensive background checks and a pee test (required for the contract), they have told me several times that I am not allowed to walk around freely. Not just between floors, but I am not allowed to walk around anywhere on my floor unescorted. Not even the restroom — I have had several people sternly tell me that I am not allowed to go there and must have a full time employee accompany me EVERYWHERE I go.

    I’ve been a contractor for 13 years, and in the tech industry for 25 years, and have never encountered such a rule.

    1. Filosofickle*

      Extensive travel you can’t do + BATHROOM ESCORT? Bail as soon as humanly possible! That’s insane.

      1. Matt*

        YES! Thanks for the validation….

        I’ve never, ever quit a contract early, but I can’t imagine staying somewhere that doesn’t trust the contractors they hired (and extensively vetted) enough to even go to the restroom alone. Or the lunchroom.

        I haven’t been eating or drinking anything all day while I am onsite because I refuse to ask my junior coworkers if I can go Potty.

        Has this kind of thing ever come up for anyone else? Truly in all of my years I have never encountered an environment like this, and I’ve worked with clients who required government security clearances.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I’ve worked in Silicon Valley and know lots of people in government including DoD, NASA, CIA, and I’ve never heard of this. Sure, until you’re properly cleared and badged sometimes there’s a period where you need an escort.

          But it is massively unreasonable that you can never ever leave the floor without an escort. Is it possible someone has misunderstood the policy? How is this not a burden on the employees, unless you’re somehow the only one? (Personally I’d totally drink all day, just to make them run me to the bathroom every hour to point out the absurdity.) Do you have to be escorted in and out for the day, too? Illogical that you would be able to do that but not go to lunch or the bathroom during.

          I’ve never broken a contract before but I would break this one.

          1. Matt*

            I initially thought it was just one person’s interpretation of the rule. But I got stuck in a stairwell after a meeting my first week and had a random woman yell at me for 15 minutes about how I’m a contractor can’t be alone in the building (she wouldn’t let me out of the stairwell).
            Then someone from my team came to get me and I had the same speech, which has subsequently been echoed several times by various others.

            I was later sent a persnickety email about how I am there as a guest and need to honor their policies.

            Yes, I have a lousy attitude as a result of this (and the bait and switch regarding aspects of the contract). I’m usually so excited to start a new gig….Sigh.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          I had to have an escort if I left the secured area at my first job, including using the bathroom in the hallway. But that was while I was waiting for a DOD security clearance, not as a permanent state! We also require escorts for visitors on company sites (including to the bathroom door) but that’s always a temporary thing too.

          Your situation sounds unreasonable, as do the people around you. The travel alone really could be a dealbreaker, but it seems obvious that the reason the recruiter had to up the rate and hide these other factors was that no one lasts long in that inhospitable environment. I hope you’re able to find something better quickly and leave these people in the dust!

  199. Flower*

    So this problem is a little moot now, but it got me thinking. My partner (with whom I live) was going through a security clearance process, and for it they needed for both of us, as phrased: “every foreign national with whom we have had a close and/or continuing relationship for the past 7 years, to whom we are bound by affection, influence, common interests and/or obligation”

    Now, I’m a scientist (a grad student) at a major medical university, so that list was, uh… long, as phrased. They eventually got back to him to clarify that it was much narrower than it seemed (so it ended up being only a few people from the university, rather than who-knows-how-many, because I don’t know the citizenship status of every foreign-born person I have continuing contact with, I just know there are many of them). This was good, but it made me wonder what would happen if I worked in, say, HR. The whole thing felt icky regardless (and like I was waaaay overstepping my bounds), but how would it play out if the person asking about citizenship or for basic info about non-citizens worked in a role like management or HR? It seems like it would add an extra layer of ick.

    1. Close Bracket*

      It is icky. First, “close and continuing” and “bound by affection” really means close friends. The scope, as explained to me by our security office, is “do you invite these people over to have dinner with you?” So, these are people who you might not know the citizenship of, but it wouldn’t be super weird to ask.

      Unfortunately, that is the price you pay for being willing to work in a job (or being willing to be the partner of a person who works in a job) that requires a security clearance. It gets worse as the clearance gets more classified, too. I was instructed to contact a foreign friend of mine who I hadn’t seen in like 5 years to find out what they were up to so the FBI could call on them. Oh, and I wasn’t allowed to tell them it was because I was getting a clearance. It felt really manipulative and like I was preying on the friendship to do this. That, however, is life with a security clearance.

      You will also have to report all new friendships with foreigners for the duration that the clearance is active. That, or not make friends with foreigners. It’s intrusive, but again, that’s life with a security clearance.

      1. Flower*

        Yeah. He just was getting upped to a security clearance from public trust, so it’s less intrusive than it might be down the line (and I think he said to expect it every five years with financial disclosure every year.) I was definitely allowed to preface it with the reason I was asking, though, so that’s good. (Or at least, if I wasn’t, nobody told me!) It really feels like the process wasn’t made to allow for people in careers that inherently have extensive contact with non-US citizens. “Obligation” definitely has to do with work environments (and like, my quals/thesis committee?? (thankfully quals over, thesis committee not yet formed, and they explicitly said not to worry about my quals committee)), and “common interests” would seem to be financial/career interests (which had me worried it included people I’m coauthors with, but definitely don’t know well).

        And yeah, I signed up to have my life looked into when I got into a relationship with someone who wanted to be a federal employee, but that doesn’t mean all my coworkers or friends did, and that kind of sucks.

        We also both worked/now volunteer at a language immersion camp, but we decided not to count most of those non-USians, since we have contact with few of them after camp ends.

        1. Close Bracket*

          It doesn’t include coauthors. It really is people you know very well and hang with regularly. Financial interests is covered by a different part of the clearance form, and it would include more like business co-owners or working directly for a foreign boss, not just working for a company where your boss is foreign.

          And yeah, I signed up to have my life looked into when I got into a relationship with someone who wanted to be a federal employee, but that doesn’t mean all my coworkers or friends did, and that kind of sucks.

          Signing up for this means you can’t be friends with foreigners if you don’t want to ask them intrusive questions. Yes, that’s harsh. However, something you have to think about is what would happen if a foreign friend refused to give you the information or what would happen if you had a friend who was undocumented. You have to be willing to give things up to have a security clearance — that’s what signing up for this means. I’m not going to give you the lecture I got about how this is all worth it for the satisfaction of contributing to national security.

  200. Manager In Name Only*

    I just wanted to share a happy story on a Friday afternoon.

    I work for a small (35 employees) company. We are in the fire alarm, security, suppression and sprinkler business. We received a long and very sweet email from our biggest customer this week. They are a large school district. They elaborated at length about several of our staff who have been especially helpful, and how our company is very valuable to them in keeping the schools safe.

    We have all been walking on clouds ever since, it’s so nice to get such gracious praise from a customer! We work hard, are on call 24/7, and it’s amazing how an email like this can energize everyone.

    It got me thinking about how we can share the love and send gratitude to some of our subcontractors and vendors who have helped us in a pinch. I’m going to ask our project/service managers to give me some names and pay it forward.

    1. Rainy days*

      I love this. It really is a great reminder that you can do important and impactful work in any industry.

    2. KAG*

      Bravo. I dropped a positive comment about a TSA employee in the comment box and actually received a response from the director(?) of that region.

      Recognizing those who do a good job encourages good service. It also gives them the kudos they deserve.

  201. Chaotic Neutral*

    Okay, I’ve obviously been scouring Alison’s archives, but thought I’d ask the commenters for advice too: I am going back to work after 4 year hiatus (except for some random part-time work of little interest). But, I’m attempting to go into a completely different field. I do hold a degree but I don’t want to/physically can’t do that thing anymore. I thought it would be easier to find a job with a current skill set so I did some certifications that are needed for working at let’s say the llama hospital. (I will not be working with llamas hands on.) My final exam is coming up and then I will be able to start applying at llama hospitals. But I have never worked at a llama hospital or anything similar before. I would like any and all advice for changing careers, returning to work after years, why my resume has nothing to do with what I’m applying for, etc.

    1. Close Bracket*

      That’s where your cover letter comes in. Talk about why you made the switch and what things can help from your old background — say, maybe in your life as an underwater basket weaver you had to present to customers and that will transfer into creating reports for the llama hospital. Also play up your flexibility and ability to learn new things using examples of new things you learned at past jobs and your performance in your certificate program.

      Expect to apply for a lot of jobs.

  202. NaoNao*

    Those who created or assisting in creating your own job description and duties, particularly at start ups or smaller orgs, tips?

    I would welcome tips on:

    -Balancing short term and long term development plans and objectives

    -Thinking through upsides and downsides of choosing to focus on certain duties when it means mutually exclusive or dialing back the “not chosen” duties

    -Being objective and not emotional or minimally emotional around choosing direction, duties, and scope/projects/focus

    Some specifics: mid career consultant in L&D at a startup. Expertise in Analysis, Design, and Development areas of ADDIE model, but would like to pivot focus to more of the Implementation and Evaluation side of things…but somehow without losing the creative side. For my company, Implementation would mean travel which is a plus and something I would be resentful and frustrated if it went to someone else…who I helped hire. I’ve spent 10 years watching everyone around me travel for work and I’m finally traveling as a consultant and it’s important to keep that. I’m honestly a bit irrational about this. I feel like it’s finally in my grasp and I am *really* struggling to be impartial and objective about the role and shaping the role and what to “give” to a new team member we’ll be hiring and how to split duties so that I don’t wind up losing my travel.

    My suggestion to my manager is to focus my current “Instructional Designer” (which has a technical job title of “consultant”) as “Performance Consultant”–so someone who does the training needs analysis at the front end and makes recommendations and assists in shaping the curriculum, then hands off to design and dev, and then picks up the implementation and project manages the delivery side of things. That way I can keep the travel and consultation, but not lose the analysis which my manager and I agree is a major strength for me.

    I did say my number one concern is “I don’t want to get trapped at a desk day after day making power points” and he’s very dedicated to letting me shape the role.

    So…thoughts and reco’s welcome. TIA.

  203. LizB*

    Who’s got two thumbs and a new job that starts in 3 weeks? THIS GAL! It’s an internal move, hence the longer notice period. I already feel infinitely less anxious, and my staff have readily accepted the “I need to make a job change to deal with ongoing health issues” explanation, so I don’t need to be any more explicit (like, “this position has drained my life of all happiness and if I stay any longer I’m going to be overdue for a meltdown like the San Andreas Fault is overdue for a civilization-destroying quake”). The pay cut is noticeable but not awful, and they’re bringing me in above the usual starting pay since I’m internal with decently long tenure.

    Solidarity out there to everyone white-knuckling their way through a job search or notice period. Here’s hoping you’ll soon be where I’m now at.

  204. IEanon*

    I know that I’m late to this week’s post, and my chances of getting an answer are slim at this point, but I figured I would still try!

    I was recently offered a contract with a federal agency (one of the medium-sized ones) for what is essentially an entry-level position with some promise of movement toward a full-time fed employee position. The work would be a bit of a step down from my current responsibilities, but I’m not opposed to that. I’m really just looking for the pros/cons of a federal contractor position. I know that furloughs are something to be concerned about, as well as the tenuous nature of being on a renewable contract, but is there anything else I’m not worrying about that I should be?

    Many thanks in advance!

    1. Nom de plume*

      Depending on the nature of the contract, i know there can be a sense of lack of HR support. If there were a major issue, like harassment, that would be taken care of but for stuff like insurance, i know people can feel like they have to figure out everything on their own.

    2. Thoughts*

      Contractors generally have to pay their own taxes instead of having withholding and I believe they also pay a self employment tax. Make sure you take that into account when deciding if the salary is high enough.

    3. Finally a Fed*

      Would you be contracted directly to the agency or would you be employed by a company that is contracted to the agency? If the latter, which has been more typical in my experience, then I would be looking at the employer you would be working for. I was an in-house contractor for an agency for 10 years and it was awesome. I technically worked for a university-affiliated organization that had great benefits and pay, long term stability, and they continued to pay us through both furloughs that I experienced. However, I have seen where the agency swapped contracts across different companies and the people who worked on those contracts got the short change on benefits when they were forced to switch companies to keep their positions. So, it’s really going to depend on the situation.

  205. Eating My Sadness Away*

    Someone please tell me that it’ll be a very bad idea to call up the hiring manager.

    Long story short, I sent the hiring manager at Company X an email on Tuesday stating that I’ve been offered a job at Company Y and need a response by Friday for the offer. But that I would love to work for Company X instead and if the hiring manager could let me know if I’m still being considered for the position or not. And now, there’s no answer at all from Company X and I’m really saddened. The hiring manager has been usually quick to reply so I guess I really messed up huh.

    1. WellRed*

      What is it you think you messed up? Asking them for a timeline didn’t make them suddenly say, ” we won’t hire her, after all.”

      1. Eating My Sadness Away*

        Well it’s almost the end of the day and Company X still hasn’t gotten back to me at all. Not sure if I offended the hiring manager over my email asking for a timeline and the lack of response probably means I won’t be getting an offer. Which kinda bums me out haha.

        1. fposte*

          Telling them about your other offer really didn’t hurt you, I promise. How far were you in the Company X process? It sounds like they just weren’t at offer stage, and the hiring manager may just not have been available to respond to you.

          But it sounds like you’re going to have a bright shiny new job at Company Y–can you get excited about that?

          1. Eating My Sadness Away*

            It’s been around two weeks since I gave him my references and I received an email from Company X, stating that I’d be hearing back near the end of this week. Unfortunately, I received the offer from Company Y a few hours after that which was not the best timing.

            I am glad to have found a job but I really liked interviewing with Company Y so I’m disheartened that it didn’t seemed to have worked out.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I truly don’t think their silence implies you messed up at all; it just means the hiring manager is on a different timeline than you need. They may not even have an answer — you’re asking for a yes/no but they may not know that and could be trying to find out before responding. (They certainly wouldn’t want to mislead you!) Of course it would have been helpful to hear ANY info, good or bad, but you’ll have to roll forward without it.

      Oh, and yes it’s a bad idea to bug the hiring manager again!

  206. JudyOnHolliday*

    I need advice. I have been working as a contractor on a project with the home office in another city. They have a manager here. She is the WORST manager I have ever encountered. It’s a short term contract, 6 weeks. I’ve caught her lying, scapegoating, blaming others and of course taking credit for other people’s contributions. She seemed to have prepared nothing for the job and has no sense of lead times. She told us to go use clients’ office equipment without ever clearing it with the client, she disappeared for 2 weeks to get married and then a few times after that for vacations. It took her weeks to get necessary materials for us to do a decent job, in the meantime we looked like gurning fools. She is one of those super super nice people who is actually really fake. We have a lot of clients that fell through and couple who are pissed off when things didn’t go as planned. God knows what she is tells the home office. I almost walked off the job a few times. Getting paid has been a fiasco. The employer is philanthropist who also seems disorganized but they are coming here next week to do exit interviews. I never want to work with these people again. Should I tell the head boss the truth?

  207. Truebluetruetou*

    I co-manage a tech department with a person that I work well with most of the time.
    The person sometimes shows manipulative behaviors and likes to hide or lie about issues to our co-workers and superiors. The person is very lazy when it comes to data and reporting that we need to do as leaders. They have sloppy work and want to divide up work when it is their assigned task not a team task. I have been told by friends, co-workers and spouse that I just need to figure out how to work with this type of person. The person is always complaining about how everything is soooooo much work. The reality I the person wait until the last minute to complete deliverables for the higher ups. It has been pointed out to me that therapy is the only thing that may help this person. It just seems like I should find a new job and be done with the games.

  208. Miss Bookworm*

    I feel like my week has been a comedy of errors when it comes to my hunt for my next job.

    I found a job I really want, applied, and had a phone interview yesterday. Unfortunately, the process hasn’t been very smooth. They had emailed me earlier this week to schedule a phone interview and when I responded, I wrote the wrong dates (had the weekdays right, but the wrong date associated—I was off by a day) in the email and had to send a follow-up to correct. I was worried that it was a bad first impression, but the hiring manager was fine with it because she had made a mistake in her email to me so, in her words, we were even. The day we picked for the phone interview, I was actually home on PTO and my dog would not be quiet. I had him on a different floor of the house, in a room with the door closed and he was barking/howling so loudly that it was like he was in the room with me. I was interviewing with the person who would be my boss and he was pretty chill about it, even mentioning that multiple employees have dogs and they were looking to find an office space where employees could bring them in. But I can’t help but feel that I messed this all up and my chance of actually getting to the in person interview stage, let alone getting the job, is shot.

    The good thing is, I am definitely qualified for the job. It’s technically entry-level, so I am a bit overqualified (six years of post-university work experience), but my day to day duties would literally be the same as what I do now with some additions that I have never done before. The interviewer didn’t have that many questions for me, but I was able to easily answer the ones he did have. And I had some questions for him that only strengthened how much I want this job.

    The only downside is the pay—they gave a range with a $15k difference between the low and high end—what I’m looking for is in the top $5k which according to my research is what someone with my experience would be salary-wise. I don’t mind a slight pay cut as long as the benefits are better than I’m getting now. Also, my SO works in the same area and would have similar hours, so we could save big on transportation costs by carpooling which we can’t do now, saving us some money.

    No use in worrying at this stage of the process though. Plenty of time for that later.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These are really basic things that happen in that “things happen” kind of ways. They shouldn’t damage your candidacy! Dogs bark, kids cry. You’re not working from home it sounds like, so they don’t really have a reason to use that against you!

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        No, definitely not going to be working from home; they do allow it after a certain amount of employment, but I really do not like to work from home.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I think you’re ok. If I was interviewing you I wouldn’t give either thing you described a second thought. The date thing was fine. Totally normal and I dare say kind of their fault. Our interviews are schedule via outlook, so there’s an email with dates.

      The dog barking, you were in your own house on PTO. My dog barks when I’m home. It’s what dogs do.

      Ok, maybe one thing I would give a second thought… with the barking dog I’d probably mention it later if WFH came up. But it wouldn’t be in the context of your interview or candidacy

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        Good to know! I’m not too keen on WFH anyway. In the six years I’ve been at my current job I’ve only worked from home a total of four days and that was when I was recovering from surgery (I didn’t want to use up my remaining PTO).

  209. FD*

    I’ve generally gotten good feedback at work but there’s something I’m struggling with to an inordinate degree, and I could use some advice.

    I’m generally highly organized and on top of things, but my current role involves two things that are, for whatever reason, hard for me.

    Listing building numbers and unit numbers (e.g. 1438C) and dates (will be coming in on Friday, August 23, 2019). I keep making mistakes and either mixing up units or dates.

    It is a genuine issue but it’s truly not for lack of trying on my part. Part of it is that the work load is so heavy and massive that it’s hard for me to slow down. Part of it is that I’ve always been a little dyslexic and some things (e.g. mixing up really similar numbers) are a struggle at times.

    I know my work is valued but it’s important that I fix this. Can anyone give me any advice on how to deal with this problem?

    1. FD*

      I should also say, for normal reading, I developed workarounds that let me read quite fast–this issue is only coming up now because we have a LOT of units with similar numbers (think 1438 and 1430 plus units that can be B/C/D, which my brain likes to confuse sometimes).

      The date issue is probably caused because I do our books so I’m often switching between “bills for services performed in July” and current month.

      1. FD*

        I also just realized–part of my problem is actually probably CAUSED by my workaround.

        My brain interprets words during normal reading with a combination of context clues and a particular trick where I take a consonant from the beginning of a word, one from the end, and a vowel from the middle, plus maybe an extra consonant from the middle. If a particular letter is hard for me to interpret, I don’t pick that or combine it with the letter before it.

        So workaround might be encoded as w-o-r-nd. From the context of the sentence, I can work out what it means easily. It’s sort of like…knowing what the word looks like instead of actually reading it. But in this context, something like 1438D–each digit and the letter are all of equal significance.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that seems like it could be challenging for anybody. How’s your auditory processing–would it help to say them out loud?

      1. FD*

        I’ll try that. I’ve been doing that some but I can make it part of my process a little more.

        I just worry because we’re a small business and this kind of thing makes us look less professional. I want us to look as polished as possible.

    3. Alianora*

      I’m not totally clear on what the context is for you looking at these numbers. Are you reading them over the phone, getting them wrong in conversation, or writing them down in some form?

      If these are being written down, is it possible for you to write your drafts, close them and work on something else, then give it another read before you hit publish/send your email? I’ve always found it much easier to catch mistakes working that way.

      1. FD*

        Mostly written, sometimes spoken.

        It definitely doesn’t work inside my workflow to do the drafting thing you’re suggesting–usually these have to be done fast.

        For instance, boss says, “Hey, can you type up notices reminding tenants that all the font door keys are being changed Friday?” In this context, I would need to put up “Friday, August 23, 2019” but might accidentally put July.

        In another context, we might be talking about which tenant is moving into, say 1438D, and I might get the keys we’re supposed to be checking mixed up with, for example, 1438C.

        1. Alianora*

          The drafting process doesn’t have to be super long – it actually doesn’t add any extra time to my work. In your example, I would type up the notice, do one other quick task, then give it a once-over before printing. The whole thing would only take like 2 minutes max.

  210. Beancounter Eric*

    Leadership gave OK to start shopping for a new ERP system to replace our current Accounting program, which we are outgrowing. Midsize electronics company with international operations – looking at $50 million revenue in 3 to 5 years.

    Looking at Oracle NetSuite, SAP Business One, and will give a quick look at Dynamics-GP for old times sake – anyone have suggestions on mid-range systems?

  211. LivingMyLife*

    In 2016 I was diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer, so I had to quit my job to focus on fighting the disease and recovering. I was finally ready to return to back in the beginning of last year, but it took me nine months of applying and interviewing all over the country before I was finally hired by a university in California. I had to move, but I was thrilled to be able to work in my profession again. It will be a year in October since I began my new job, which I really like. However, now I need to move because the cost of housing is too high to stay here long term. I am applying for university jobs in another state, which has a much lower cost of living. I wonder if I need to address my gap in employment in my cover letter. I figure that I have been working for almost a year and don’t really need to draw attention to my employment gap. Do you think that by not addressing this issue the employers will hesitate to hire me?

    1. fposte*

      Congratulations on your recovery! I don’t think the gap needs to be addressed in your application. It could come up in the interview, depending on your prior work history, but it’s pretty easily dealt with there.

  212. Adelyade83*

    My husband and I run a small mechanic shop. He, Travis, does the mechanic work and I do the office end. We have two other employees. Our shop has only been open for about 4 months, but Travis helped manage another shop for the last 15 years, so he has lots of experience with most aspects of running a shop. He is however not very confrontational. That is a problem when employees need to be corrected. He gets frustrated but doesn’t really say much so our employees don’t necessarily know there is a problem. He will kind of mention something but I’m not sure the message is direct enough. This is my first time really managing employees so I’m looking for some tips on how to correct problems in such a small environment. I feel like the stakes for doing it well are higher since we are in such close quarters all day.

    1. Rainy*

      Regular meetings one on one to update on status of tasks/projects (employee) and provide feedback (manager). If Travis isn’t very assertive, maybe you need to do the people management side of things.

      Just be clear and direct.

    2. JudyOnHolliday*

      There are books and youtube videos on management for a small business, at least a few are useful. Courses too if you want to pay for them but I would be really cautious about going with a reputable school. Managing a team is an art not a science. Good luck!

  213. Apparently I'm Three People instead of One*

    I’ve been so overworked and stressed lately — I was out of the office for a work-related conference at the beginning of this month and haven’t been able to catch up since, mostly because I’ve been made to cover for my coworkers. Coworker A — let’s call him Ben — went on vacation for a week, and his boss decided to direct all of Ben’s incoming calls and emails to me. Now Coworker B — let’s call her Jane — is on vacation, and her boss picked me as her stand-in. All the while, I’m trying to train Coworker C, while frantically handling my own responsibilities.

    I had a talk with my boss about how burned out I am. I told him I needed help getting everything done and warned him I was in danger of missing deadlines. Apparently, no one cared or listened: Ben just got fired, and guess who’s standing in for him until we hire his replacement?

    1. Free Meerkats*

      There comes a time when you have to stop trying to do everything. Do what you can do in the time you have available without burning yourself out. You’ve already told your boss that you need help or deadlines aren’t going to be met, so stop meeting some. Prioritize your work, send an email to your boss with your priority list on it and a list of what won’t be accomplished. If he comes back with “accomplish everything” tell him that’s not going to happen and you’ll move priorities around if he thinks your list needs to be adjusted, but everything can’t be done.

      Assuming you have at least half a care about your work, letting balls drop is hard, but not nearly as bad as how you’ll feel when the burnout comes down on your head like Maxwell’s Silver Hammer.

  214. Lilysparrow*

    Well, I got a big boost out of imposter syndrome today.

    Just started a new freelance gig this week, at a *much* higher level & pay rate than I’ve ever had before. I’ve been wringing my hands a bit, wondering if I really have the chops to keep my work up to expectations.

    The job involves compiling material from subject-matter experts into a very specific type of documentation. The company has pretty clear standards on how the work-product is supposed to turn out, but of course it has to go through several rounds of revision & consultation with the expert and with editorial staff.

    Well, as part of the (paid) training, I’m supposed to take a sample first draft and do the first round of revision, along with comments to the compiler about any major flaws/mistakes that could be avoided in future, to help streamline the process. Because naturally, a better first draft means less revision in the end.

    Y’all. I mean, y’all. I had to read the thing three times to even begin to grasp what it was talking about.

    I don’t know if the original expert actually speaks in convoluted, page-long sentences, or if the compiler thought it was cool to show off how many dependent clauses they could stick together with commas and duct tape.

    They didn’t even follow the **incredibly specific** outline that is laid out in the standards doc. Even if the expert doesn’t give all the info in the right order, that is what freaking cut-and-paste is for, dude.

    What a hot mess.

    Maybe they picked this as an example of what not to do? But if this garbage is at all representative of “normal” first drafts?

    I have nothing to worry about. Zilch.

    Good grief. I’m still reeling at the idea that anyone would turn that monstrosity in, and expect to get paid for it.

  215. Door Guy*

    Was waiting all week for this and find out this morning it will likely be more of a vent than needed advice.

    I’m 5 months in on my new job where I am the manager of the “Company”. Our owners have 8 companies across 3 physical locations, and my location is both the newest and the only one that doesn’t have any of the other companies also working on site. It was a step up for me but I’ve been diving in and learning with gusto and have been getting great reviews and feedback from the owners on how I’m doing and have already gotten a nice raise at the end of my 90 days.

    I get along well (or well enough) with everyone I have to interact with at work, bar 1 – my sales manager. This is not my first, or even 2nd leadership role, and I’m not naive enough to believe that I’m going to be friends, or even get along well, with every single worker I manage. I’ve had difficult direct reports before, but none have been like “Frankie”. He’s not the worst I’ve ever had to deal with but he has been the most frustrating. It’s not like he talks back or defies me or rages or anything else – he just doesn’t communicate period. I do know that it isn’t all me, as in my review when we were going over staff issues it came up and I did try and word it so I wasn’t just venting to all 3 of the company officers. They acknowledged that “Frankie” has a communication issue with everyone, not just me, but did admit that what I had been dealing with was getting extreme.

    I can’t get any information out of him without asking multiple times, because he will only pass on little bits at a time and I can’t get a full picture until I’ve pressed at least 2-3 times for more. If I don’t initiate contact, he doesn’t tell me anything. I get most of my information on what he is doing based on overhearing him tell our office clerk where he’s going/what he’s doing as he leaves. I’ve tried reaching out in multiple ways to him but nothing has come of it and I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.

    Before I came in, the VP was managing the office, but was only physically present about 2 days a week (and not the full day either), and spent most of that time working with an under-performing service-coordinator “Richard”. The rest of the time he was top of the food chain. Thanks to Richard as well as the only partial supervision, he was tasked with doing things outside the scope of his job because they needed to be done as we are small and there was only Richard and him in the office besides the field workers who were out in the field most of the day. He used the fact that he had to do things for Richard as an excuse whenever he got questioned on why he hadn’t done something. Then I came in and the next week Richard was let go, so he had the excuse of I was new and still learning our systems. Then I got more proficient and we got Richard replaced with Petunia and he used the excuse that a few times a month I have to go to another office for the day and he couldn’t leave Petunia alone as she was new, except that Petunia had told us that he is basically never there when I’m gone so he was leaving her alone all the time. Now she’s trained up and doing well, and all those little things he had to do are off his plate and he’s running out of excuses.

    I don’t need to be his buddy or friend, but my bosses are expecting me to know what is going on in our office and I can’t even get a “I’m going out to meet with a customer” from him without pushing. I’m not looking (nor do I have the time or inclination) to micromanage, but I need to know something! Right now I don’t care if it’s just an outline with minimal details, anything is better than a communication black out. (And before people ask, yes, I have brought this to his attention, numerous times). An example would be I recently got passed the duty of preparing the weekly sales report (the VP had been doing it) and I have to present it every Friday morning at 8 am to the owners. I asked Frankie for his info Thursday morning. I asked him Thursday before I went to lunch. I sent him an email when I still didn’t have it by 3 pm. We close at 5pm and he sent it to me at 4:57. It wasn’t even like he had to send me a lot, it was 3 lines copied out of an Excel document and pasted into the email that I eventually got.

    His non-communication isn’t limited to other staff either, but also to our customers. He will throw out numbers and then either not write them down, or just write down the number with no details on how he got that number and then later on we have to try and figure out how he came up with it, or a customer will change an option and he will just tell them the new number but not update any of the paperwork. His desk is an absolute disaster that I, personally, would be embarrassed to meet clients at. (This has been an on-going issue for long before I started. The VP has been fighting that battle long before I came in)

    Usually, he would get coaching or a discussion and they left it well enough alone because he is a very well connected salesman and he does get great results – he’s gotten us into new, big accounts that we’ve never been able to get a toe in before, got us in with the city works, got us in with the county, and even got our companies largest single residential sale in our 100 year history. It’s the back-end where he struggles.

    A few weeks ago there was a week where our schedules didn’t line up so we didn’t see each other at all between me being at one of our other offices and him having PTO when I was back. My first day back and one of the employees asks me “So what did Frankie do to your pens?” as I was getting things ready in the morning. When I asked him what he meant he said that the day before Frankie had been in my office, and had all the pens in my desk lines up and was doing something to them, as well as messing with my phone and a few other things. They said they had told him not to do anything, that he had claimed it was just a “fun office prank” and they then repeated they didn’t think it was a good idea and left after he brushed them off again, then told me first thing when they got in. He had gone through and taken all the tape off my roll (except a tiny bit from the empty roll to the cutter), emptied all the staples out of my stapler, unplugged the cord for my phone handset from the base, and removed all the lead from the 2 mechanical pencils I had. He also used either a knife, or a file, or a scissors or something and cut the tip off every single pen in my desk, rendering them all useless. The VP was in that day and I brought it to his attention and he was furious. I had a family emergency and was out the next time VP was in the office but they had a talk and he was told in no uncertain terms that we do not play pranks in our office, especially ones that destroy property, and that he owed me an apology.

    It took him 2 weeks to actually apologize, it happened when we were the only 2 in the building and I had come to him because I needed info on a work order. He never actually apologized, deflected it as “just a joke” and “no big deal” that our VP “blew it out of proportion” and “we did stuff like that at other places I worked all the time”. I didn’t push it as frankly, a forced non-apology weeks after the fact meant nothing more than him trying to get the VP off his back. I want to note that this is not some young dumb kid a few years out of school with a lot to learn, he’s a grown man in his 60’s who has owned his own company before, and had never done something like this in the 3 years he’s worked here.

    He had PTO today and some of our workers came back from the field early because Frankie hadn’t done what he was supposed to do and everything they had for the job was wrong and needed to be re-ordered. Our senior tech came in furious and asked if he could be trained on how to do Frankie’s job because things like this kept happening and he was sick of it. He then went on to make a list of all the jobs in the last 2 months that were done wrong on Frankie’s end in some way and while I knew about some of them, I wasn’t aware of all of them and neither was VP. Thousands of dollars worth of mistakes and unhappy customers that weren’t getting passed along to us but instead back to Frankie who was just ordering the new parts and either brushing off or outright lying and blaming the customer when questioned on why a job we thought was complete was back in our to-do list. It was a situation where we were aware there had been mistakes, but once they were all written down it was suddenly apparent how many there truly were. He also said some things he had overheard/been told that were painting a picture that Frankie was looking to move on: a casual mention of buying out one of our competitors who is looking to retire at the end of the year (him and Frankie are old buddies), several overheard calls Frankie took in the back room where the words “interview” and “salary” were mentioned, and just a lack of care in the job that we hadn’t realized had gone that far.

    Monday, Frankie will have his long-awaited review that he had requested with both VP’s present (and the Pres has weighed in on but has other obligations and can’t make it). He has requested what I have been told is a “Premium” raise (I actually know what he’s asking for, but only because I saw the email flash by while the VP was pulling something up one day) but is going to be told he’s not going to get even close to that amount (it would put his pay higher than 2 of the owners per the VP), and it’s going to be a “come to Jesus” type meeting. We aren’t sure how he’s going to respond, but it’s very likely he will not take this well.

    Sorry for the rant, but it’s just been coming to a head and even the VP who had been trying to balance the positive with the negative (as compared to the President’s focus on only the negative) confided in me that Frankie has pushed it too far and he’s not going to stand up for him any more with the other officers. He also mentioned to the other officers that our senior tech was interested in Frankie’s job (he really is, as he is getting older and doesn’t want to do such a physical job too much longer) and they were open to the idea. So we’ll see what happens next week…

    1. juliebulie*

      I hope you are rid of Frankie soon since this has gone on much longer than it should have. It’s one thing to be bad at one’s job, but Frankie has become an obstacle.

      1. Door Guy*

        That’s my thoughts. I had figured he had a problem with me – I’m almost half his age, am his superior, and I’m now there to watch over what had been essentially “his” turf for the last 2.5 years before I arrived.

        It really was startling to see written out just how many mistakes he was making. As they were all his jobs, the techs came back to report to him when something was wrong as he has all the info. On the few occasions I would get the report, I’d have to go to him anyways as his record keeping was subpar just to find out what was going on and then he’d spout on about how he’s already working on it and would get it finished. (A few weeks ago he was angry because VP and I quoted a job to a customer that “he was already working on”. The tech had brought a quote request back from a service job and given it to him the night before, he was in late (pre-approved) and the customer themselves called in and gave us a ton of info so we quoted it before he got back in and we didn’t even KNOW about the request on his desk.)

        The guy’s checked out mentally and while I highly doubt he’ll be fired on Monday, his job is hanging on by a thread was my take away after the 3 officers talked today. The biggest reason he’s not gone is that all of his issues were fixable. You can get yourself more organized, you can get your work space cleaner, you can take an extra moment to look over your orders. The VP working with us is very much a “Nobody’s perfect, we all make mistakes, as long as we learn from them” style manager. Unfortunately for Frankie, he’s used up all his capital with them now and he’s turned into a liability instead of a mostly positive mess. I honestly think he’s going to be one to just up and quit no notice, likely when he gets told that no, he will not be getting a $7k/year raise at his review and an additional $5k when we do reviews/raises in January like he demanded in his email.

        1. Auntie Social*

          I knew a Frankie who was such a disorganized mess that slick customers took advantage of him. “Remember Frankie, you couldn’t get approval for the last batch to cost me $20 per, so you guaranteed me a $20 price on this next order?” And Frankie couldn’t admit that he’d forgotten something, so he agreed!! The sales secretary said she had no notes or memos about that, and the VP of Sales certainly knew nothing about it because he was apoplectic. They couldn’t make heads or tails of his desk, his book, no memos—it was basically starting over. The VP honored the price. . . and fired Frankie. The relief was wonderful. And the slick customers were assigned to the VP of sales for a while!!

          1. Door Guy*

            We’ve had a few customers lately that we’ve had similar. Options changed and things got requoted but nothing was ever put in the files or on the computer, just a scribbled out number with a new number on top – nothing for the the how or why. Then I go to process for invoicing and get told “Oh, uh, they did X” when I ask him what’s correct.

            Had to write off a decent chunk of change the other week because he threw a number out before he had figured what it should actually be and the customer held firm on that “verbal contract” number. We also have a customer threatening to take us to small claims court. Whether or not she has a case is almost immaterial at the moment as we don’t have enough records to PROVE anything. We have some incriminating emails (in our favor) but they are super spaced out (and the numbers don’t match because of later changes) because they hashed things out in person, on the phone, AND in email so only part of the whole story is documented and now, months later, she’s making a claim.

      1. Door Guy*

        I’m not saying I’ve never played a few jokes/pranks at work, because I have. It’s been a while, but I have. BUT any and all I’ve ever played have been with coworkers I’m on good terms with, have been my equal in standing (so not picking on those below me or poking at my boss), and NEVER anything that actually wrecked anything.

        Honestly, if it had been anyone else in the office I’d have been less mad. Not that I would have been happy, but at least I get on well with them all and could see a poor attempt at a joke. Doing it when you already have a poor relationship makes your prank appear malicious (to me).

        Frankie is currently in his review, and while I can’t hear any of the actual words (more distance than good soundproofing) his voice has definitely been raised a few times.

  216. Paralegal Part Deux*

    So, the firm is finally hiring someone to replace my coworker that quit back in July (just now getting resumes sent in), and I’m happy about that. However, there is one guy that is apparently trying to gumption his way into getting an interview. He called yesterday to see if we got the resume (we did). He called back today to see if he could get an interview (not even close to that point). He is driving me up the wall. I feel like telling him gumption is the worst advice, ever, and direct him to AAM.

    Any suggestions on what to say if he calls back again (which I’m sure he will next week)?

    1. Anon Librarian*

      How much of a say do you have in the hiring process? Because I think you have three main options here. 1) Screen him out now and either cease contact or let him know the standard way. Don’t answer if he calls. 2) Confer with others about possibly screening him out or putting him in the “probably not” category. 3) Keep answering his calls and politely answering his questions, but document everything and add a note to his file, along with his resume. Just noting the dates of the calls and the questions he asked. “8/9 – Called to inquire as to whether we received his resume. Receipt confirmed. 8/11 – Called to inquire as to whether an interview had been scheduled for him. Informed him that interviews had not yet been scheduled and that candidates would be notified by email.”

      I wouldn’t give him any advice or feedback at this point. That would be giving him something that you’re not giving to other candidates and thereby rewarding the GUMPTION. They’re not being told, “Thank you for doing a great job so far!” so he shouldn’t be told, “This isn’t how things work.” However, once the whole process is over, you could say something.

      Another thought – could you let his calls go to voicemail? Then, if he leaves odd or repeated voicemails, you could listen to them with other people involved in hiring.

      Or maybe he won’t call again! Maybe he’s great but got some bad advice and has figured it out by now and will behave normally.

  217. Cap. Marvel*

    I’m not sure I need advice, maybe this is just a venting session…
    I want to start by saying my manager is great in many aspects. Natasha is accommodating, intelligent, and a role model to us that work under her. That being said, she is also spread thin so no one on her teams ever gets more than a few minutes with her. And that is a problem because she insists on being a part of every step of every project or task we have and she has to approve every step.
    It’s gotten to the point where some of us are sitting on our hands waiting for her approval and are afraid to make a decision because she hasn’t responded. And it’s not as if it’s only been a day and still no response. It’s more like been over a week and this deadline is tomorrow but she hasn’t responded to my emails.
    She’s managing no less than 30 people in five different departments plus traveling 50% of the time so I understand that she must be extremely busy.
    It’s especially frustrating to myself and four other co-workers who report directly to her. We’re all in entry-level positions; most of her other staff in entry level positions have managers above them that have some authority so if she doesn’t respond then their managers can make a decision. We cannot.
    Natasha really does try to answer in a timely manner, even working on the weekends to catch up but then that makes most of feel like we need to respond to her right away because ‘she’s finally emailing us, when will we get this chance again?!’ Not to mention we then have to scramble to meet the deadlines once she has given her blessing so we’re also trying to play catch up.
    I understand that most things should go through her, like drafts of written materials we’ll be distributing at a conference or approving flight options for the staff. But other things like can I send this client an email to clarify what he means or can I remove this guy from our system because he no longer works with our client to me seems like it is unnecessarily cumbersome.

    1. LGC*

      …is Natasha my boss? Because she sounds like it!

      That’s rough, though – micromanagers (and even though Natasha sounds like a lovely person, she can be that and a micromanager) can be hard to deal with. I think you know this already, but the real problem is that Natasha is doing a poor job of delegating with you.

      I’m curious, though – why is she directly managing your team? It seems like she mostly manages managers.

      1. Cap. Marvel*

        (sigh) I know she is. And I’ve been working around it by giving her earlier deadlines and sending things way in advance. But that doesn’t always help.
        Short answer: we handle a small part of client interactions and she’s is the EVP that oversees all client communications plus other departments. So it’s nothing especially difficult, we just need to be on top of keeping the system accurate and we have processes in place but the second to last step is her signature or approval and god forbid the client changes something. Then we start the process over and my frustration is that we’re not really trained to know what is acceptable or not. I would love to have some authority to say “We have never shared that kind of information in the past so we cannot share it with you now, but perhaps you’d be interested in X instead?”

        1. LGC*

          Actually…I was asking why she’s directly managing your team in particular – especially since it seems like teams similar to yours have intermediate managers. (To be honest, I’d tell Natasha to set you guys up with a manager and fix a lot of your problems that way.) That’s the biggest issue I saw – simply put, she needs to have someone sign off on day to day things in a timely manner because she can’t.

          As for stuff you can do: It sounds like you…have limited ability to deal with things yourself directly, and Natasha is just a Very Busy Person. So I’d actually work out some scripts to deal with delays, for starters. For example, you might say, “I would have to check to see if we can provide that information. I’ll try to have a more definitive answer by [a few days from now/next week/whatever doesn’t sound too ludicrous but gives Natasha time to get back to you].” Adjust as needed, but I like giving a reasonable timeframe.

          For the internal things: this sounds like a hazard of being managed directly by Natasha. So it’s one of those things you might just have to care a little bit less about, unfortunately. There will be times when Natasha just swoops in at the 11th hour with her response and you have to scramble to get ready.

          Occasional reminders also help. If her part is time sensitive, you get to check in after a couple of days.

          Finally, is email the best way to reach her for time sensitive requests? Is she open to calls or texts? Do you have Slack or Teams?

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      I think you might need to stop scrambling to meet the deadlines and start letting things fail.

  218. Anon Librarian*

    I have a lot of knowledge and skills that are not on my resume and that I haven’t used in any job so far. I do a lot of reading and have a lot of hobbies outside of work. I also just haven’t had that many jobs where I got to use my mind that much; it’s all been kind of rote, which seems to be common.

    How can I harness all of this and make it valuable to my career and to future employers? Some of it is in the arts and sciences outside of my current field, but some of it is directly relevant to my current field – I just haven’t used it in a job type of setting yet.

    Pursuing another degree is possible but unlikely. I don’t think I’d qualify for more student loans and I can’t afford tuition. It would need to be grant-based or employer-sponsored.

    I blog a bit, and I “show off” some of ky knowledge there. But since it’s informally acquired (mostly), it’s mostly hobbyist type blogging.

    A lot of people think I went to a really fancy school because I’m so knowledgeable about so many things. But I didn’t. It’s all because I enjoy learning, and it’s often been something I had to do on the sly, in opposition to family rules and a jump-through-hoops educational system where I was penalized for being in certain minority groups (at those schools). (Side rant: Sometimes, I want to yell, “Yes, I do know a lot, and no, it’s not because someone else bought it for me! It’s because I stay in and read and when other people are watching TV or being social.” But I digress.)

    Ok, back to more productive things. I feel really under-employed and like I’m not using most of my skills, knowledge, and brain power. Ideas to bridge the gap?

    1. juliebulie*

      I know it’s frustrating and unfair that you (usually) can’t claim skills that you’ve acquired through hobbies. But sometimes volunteering gives you a chance to use those skills, and other people will vouch for them, and then you can put them on your resume.

      If you can possibly run your own business, that would be a more profitable way to make your skills look legit on a resume.

      I hope others have better ideas…

    2. So Many Owlbears*

      Knowledge and skills on their own are great, but accomplishments are the heart and soul of a good resume. I’d focus there.

      Personally, I know a couple of dead languages and a tremendous amount of trivia, the lyrics and harmonies to a few hundred songs, and so on, but none of those have led me to actually accomplish anything.

      Whereas when I picked up knowledge of a software package and completed a mini project in it, that line item went on my resume and strengthened it while job hunting. Good luck!

  219. Little Beans*

    Should I contact a candidate’s current employer for a reference check, if they have offered? The candidate has been in their current position for 9 years, so the only other supervisors on their reference list are from 9+ years ago. The candidate said it would be ok but just asked that we let them know first so they can inform their current supervisor. I’m pretty confident that the reference check will go well and we will be offering them the position, but I think there is still a chance we won’t be able to agree on salary or other terms, and then I would hate to have made them “out” their search to their boss.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      That’s a risk the candidate seems willing to accept, but it seems like the better strategy is to be sure you’re on the same page with respect to the salary in the offer. Has the range been made clear to the candidate? If so and the candidate later chooses not to accept the offer, that’s part of the risk they’ve accepted. If not, I’d be sure to have that happen before contacting a current supervisor, for everyone’s sake.

  220. Kate H*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for solid noise-cancelling headphones for less than $100?

    I work in an open-plan office and one of the (very few remaining) perks of my job is that I can listen to podcasts and audiobooks all day. The team behind me recently went from two people to five. The three closest to me talk for the majority of the day, including occasional conversations between two people on opposite sides of the room. I have a pair of “sound-cancelling” headphones already and they work well for noises outside of the room, but when I wear them I can actually hear voices inside of the room better than without them. It can take me an entire workday to make it through a two-hour podcast because I have to pause it every time someone’s speaking. My employer is footing the bill so the budget is firm.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      They aren’t actively noise cancelling, but I have a pair of AmazonBasics Bluetooth headphones (can be used plugged in as well I believe) that were about $60 and I can’t hear a thing with them on, even if I don’t have anything actively playing. Like, I paused them and then got sidetracked before I got up, my husband walked in behind me and apparently was talking for a couple minutes before I even noticed he was there. They’ve got the big muffly over-ear cups, and while they get a bit heavy after four hours, they haven’t been painful to wear for six to eight.

    2. Frenchtoast*

      Srythym NC-25! These headphones have changed my (work) life. There’s a noise cancelling button to press but it works by using the microphone to pick up ambient sound and block it … it is SHOCKING how incredibly quiet it is, almost eerie. I sit near our A/C unit and it’s goes from a loud constant fan yo absolute, utter silence. And shockingly affordable!

  221. PhyllisB*

    To anyone who is involved with community college financials: First our county has tuition guarantee for any student who graduates from a high school in our county.(With a C average or better.) The two neighboring counties’ community colleges also honor our tuition guarantee if anyone wants to attend college at one of their institutions. My grand-daughter just started college at the CC the next county over. She was given tuition guarantee, awarded a $1400.00 scholarship, and given a $5,000.00 grant. Well. Now, the college is telling her she has to pay out-state tuition because her mother lives in another state. They revoked her guarantee and took all her scholarship/grant money for out-of-state fees. Here’s the thing: she hasn’t lived with her mother for five years and never lived with her in the state she’s in now. She attended school locally for all of high school except 9th grade. This was in another state, but not with her mother. She has lived with my mother and she has a guardianship form for her. Do we have any recourse? We’re not sure what we should do next.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I think it may depend on the state itself, but everywhere I’ve lived residency-related tuitions were based on where the student lived, not where their parent lived. If they were contesting it on the assumption she must have lived with parent, it should be easy to resolve by simply showing records that indicate she lived where she lived. This should be easily cleared up – but if for some reason your locale has other regs or for some reason regs about not only where the student lived but also the parent….or if you’re just dealing with asshole bureaucrats who don’t actually care if they’re doing it correctly…that might be different.

      1. PhyllisB*

        I’ve never heard of out of state being determined by parents’ residence either. But, as I said earlier, she has always attended local schools, and lived locally so it’s obvious that she’s not an out of state student. The only thing I can figure out is when she filled out her FAFSA paperwork she had to list her mother on it. I think your last sentence sums it up perfectly. We just aren’t sure how to get this straightened out.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Have you talked to the school about this? Probably the Student Affairs office or whoever sent you the notices that you received the tuition guarantee and the notice it was revoked.

      Be prepared to dig in and have to deal with the bureacracy.

  222. Annonn*

    Mostly venting, but if anyone has any tips beyond the condescending ‘get over it’, I’m glad to hear it–
    I’m so sick of the cliquish behavior of my peers! It was one thing when they were just going to lunch together (every day, always in some variation of their core group of 3-4 people) but at this point they actually change our (hourly, retail-esque) schedules so that they end up going at the same time, without regard for everyone else’s needs and desires. They’re also doing the thing where they don’t make eye contact or acknowledge the presence of anyone outside of their core group. Not to mention, they FREQUENTLY discuss their lunch plans (like, every day) in front of me and other coworkers without inviting anyone along.

    I oscillate between wondering if I did something to piss them off and reminding myself that, on a good day, they’re generally decent to me. But this week has been particularly tough and I’m sick of eating lunch by myself.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Accept that they are never going to ask you to lunch and ask some of the other non-clique members to lunch instead. Or, since you say there is a core group with some variations, ask people who on a given day are not doing the clique lunch to go to lunch.

    2. valentine*

      Are the schedule changes something you can address with your manager?

      Knowing they choose to be this way and to shun everyone, the one thing you can influence is how much you care about it. Find positive things to associate with solo lunch (if this is because no one else can take lunch at the same time due to the clique, this is another reason to address it) and take comfort in knowing associating with them has to be toxic, so you don’t really want to join their clique.

    3. Acornia*

      What do you want to happen?
      Is this worth going to a higher up so the schedule hogging ends?
      Can you find a friend to eat lunch with? I assume there are other employees outside the core group you could befriend. Is this the kind of group you want to be with, anyway? (Maybe watch Mean Girls this weekend to see the hazards of finally getting to join the in clique.)
      Remember, you can’t change them, but you *can* change you and your responses. And you can change jobs, too, if necessary.

    4. Anon Librarian*

      Start by being glad you aren’t IN the clique. It’s probably even more dysfunctional than it looks.

      Aside from that, it’s a workplace environment type of issue. You could look for ways to work around it or make it work in your favor, or you could just look for a better job.

    5. LGC*

      I was going to ask if they also wore pink on Wednesdays, but Acornia beat me to the Mean Girls reference.

      One thing that’s a bit alarming is that they’re changing the schedules – which means that one of them at least has some authority. I’d keep an eye out for any other unfair treatment, especially from your supervisor (or whoever the person “in charge” is).

  223. Princesa Zelda*

    Today was my first day back in college!
    I’d been out of school for 3 1/2 years, and now that I’m no longer a dependent under FAFSA I could finally afford to go back. I’ve been saving up money and paying forward on bills for months, and quit one of my jobs to make the time. Sitting in a classroom as a student was so strange, but I have the feeling it’s going to be a really good semester.

  224. Lucy*

    Hey all! I work for a very small company (7 employees in total) based across the country from me; five of my colleagues are at the head office and I and another woman work remotely in other parts of the country. Everyone who works there is great and professional, except for my boss. The company works despite him.

    Before he was my boss, I knew him in a social capacity and he introduced me to one of his friends, “Sarah”. She was a nice girl and we exchanged social media info but never really hung out or anything, and she ended up moving to another country.

    Anyway, recently my boss mentioned that Sarah would be coming to my city on holiday, and said that he might come down too and we could all see each other. I was fine with that and contacted Sarah to see how she was doing and if there was anything in particular she would be interested in doing during her trip, etc.

    About a week before she was due to arrive, she wrote to me to tell me that my boss was acting creepy and trying to get her to let him stay in her hotel room with him, and it was making her uncomfortable, and she wasn’t sure if she should cancel her vacation or not. It turned out that he was the one who had convinced her to come to my city in the first place. My boss, the day after that, casually mentioned to me that he wouldn’t be able to get free and would actually have to stay put instead of coming to see Sarah.

    Anyway, Sarah got into town and we went for a drink, and she showed me the messages. It wasn’t just about her and him pressuring her to let him stay with her – there were also pages and pages of graphic fantasies about a threesome with her and me, and explicit photos. She was horrified and had cut off contact with him. I am also horrified. There is obviously no HR department in my company, and he didn’t send anything to me directly, but I’m still beyond disgusted that he did this. What should I do, other than look for a new job?

    1. Watermelon M*

      Oh gosh. I don’t really have a solution other than quit and document everything! I’m so sorry :/

    2. Morning reader*

      Wow, Lucy, this is a terrible situation. Complicated, too. I see three aspects that may have different answers: legal, business, and social.

      1. Consult a lawyer to figure out if crimes were committed or planned against you and if there are employment laws that cover any of this. If you feel endangered or it appears that he was planning to assault you, contact law enforcement.
      2. It is unclear if your boss is the owner or if he has a boss himself. If he has a boss, tell her. If he doesn’t get fired, quit. If he is the owner, quit. (Step 1 first so you already have legal advice on this.)
      3. You know him and Sarah socially, and all this happened socially online and as far as you report here, there is no business aspect to any of these goings on. That gives some standing to respond socially. Tell his wife, or tell Sarah to tell his wife (if he’s married. She may already know if they are non monogamous, but she’d want to know about the non consensual communications which are at minimum problematic.) tell his other friends that you have in common.

      It’s unclear what role Sarah played in all this so I don’t know how much support you would get from her. It sounds to me like they may have had a cyber sexual relationship and planned to meet in your city for a rendezvous, then he went off the rails with extreme pre-meeting fantasizing. Including a coworker in these plans/fantasies was absolutely over the top and at some point she got uncomfortable and pushed back. (I could be wrong about this; maybe she was coming to your city for unrelated reasons and he randomly and suddenly inundated her with pornography the week before she was to arrive… that would be even more problematic and safety concerning. Do you know for sure he is not coming to your city? Can you verify his whereabouts? Just saying… lock your doors and windows. If he is this delusional and was making a plan involving you, who knows what he might do.)

      If he is the owner and you have no immediate legal recourse, and if you don’t work in the same location, you may have some lead time before you have to quit. He doesn’t know that Sarah told you any of this, and he hasn’t overtly creeped on you at work, right? As long as you don’t have to be in the same room with him, you can find your next position and contemplate legal actions from a safe distance.

  225. Millie*

    How emotionally and financially involved should I be in my boss’s wife’s terminal illness? I’ve been with this new small company since Jan. He’s a great manager and makes me feel confident in my work. Sadly, his wife’s cancer has returned. I previously bought a shirt from a fundraiser to benefit them, and now two coworkers are planning a benefit dinner. They discuss this during the work day, and act as if everyone will be available that Sunday to cook, clean, donate auction items, and entertain. I plan to discuss with my husband how much we will commit to. When I evaluated my unexpected negative feelings, I realized it’s because so much of my mental energy is devoted to my family (spouse, college daughter, and two high schoolers.) I am a compassionate person, but am I being selfish? How do you manage situations like this?

    1. valentine*

      How emotionally and financially involved should I be in my boss’s wife’s terminal illness?
      Not at all. You can feel for her and maybe the family, sign a card, but don’t take on work that neighbors and faith communities usually do. There’s nothing wrong with keeping work about work and it sounds like you need a break from emotional labor and caregiving. Think about what share of that each of your family members takes on and how you might redistribute it.

    2. LGC*

      Direct answer: you should have no obligations to contribute. (And if you ARE forced to, that’s at least mildly dysfunctional.) Definitely figure out how much you plan to commit, but whatever amount you plan to do (including nothing further) is the right amount, if it’s something you feel comfortable with.

      I can’t help but think, though…it reads to me almost like you feel like you’re being forced to volunteer for this fundraising dinner. I’m curious if you’ve had situations where this has happened before. Have a script ready – like “Unfortunately, I’m only able to help out with the fundraising picnic for Tangerina, not the evening gala. But I wish you the best of luck!”

  226. DreddPirate*

    I’m curious if this is an industry thing or a general thing…
    For quite some time, I’ve noticed when I answer the phone at my office that people no longer say who’s calling at the start of a phone conversation, just jump ahead and ask for the person they’d like to speak to.
    On occasion some have even gotten mad at me for asking who they are and the reason for their call.
    When did basic phone etiquette and courtesy fall by the wayside?
    Is this something other commenters have experienced?

    1. Ranon*

      I get it all the time- it’s especially annoying since we have a dial by name directory and individual extensions and it’s often contractors we’ve been working with for a while who ought to be able to call the person they’re trying to get in touch with in the first place. I think everyone’s so used to cell phones they forget that they may be calling a shared line (and maybe even without caller ID) Building/ construction industry.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m confused about the issue here. If I’m calling for a specific person but don’t know their extension is it unreasonable to just say “I’d like to speak to Esmerelda Jones, is she available?”

      1. Ranon*

        Well, yes, because Esmeralda might not want to talk to you, or might be about to run out to a meeting and would skip most calls but yours is super important and she’ll stop for it, but she doesn’t know that if I can’t tell her who you are.

      2. MaxiesMommy*

        Yes—what you’re proposing is rude. How does Esmeralda know if she wants to take the call, if she doesn’t know who the caller is and the nature of the call? Your wants don’t trump hers.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Surely in that case “no she’s not available, can you leave a message or call back” seems like the correct response. When I was a receptionist it was standard to ask who was calling so I could check if the person was available, and them to voice mail, or take a message. I don’t see what difference it makes if you start out saying your name or you say it later on if you are calling in to a main switchboard or similar.

      3. tamarack and fireweed*

        Well, maybe not much, but you should expect the next words to be “Who is speaking and in what matter are you calling?” For all you know it is the job of the person you’re talking to to ensure Esmeralda (AND her voicemail) kept well clear of telesales representative who only know her job title and therefore target her as the likely decision maker on which cleaning supplies provider, catering firm or insurance agent the company is working with. As you might expect the general switchboard or front office to have such a filtering function, your failure to provided your name and affiliation upfront will still even in 2019 be seen as mildly rude by some.

    3. Koala dreams*

      Phone etiquette changed when people got used to cell phones that show who’s calling. Before that, the etiquette was to say your name first, but now saying your own name is considered old-fashioned. Phone etiquette changing is not really a new thing, if you go further back there have been rules about answering the phone with the phone number instead of your name for example.

    4. The Other Dawn*

      “when I answer the phone at my office that people no longer say who’s calling at the start of a phone conversation, just jump ahead and ask for the person they’d like to speak to.”

      I very rarely hear it any other way. Typically people say, ” Hi, may I please speak to John Smith?” That’s how I ask for people, too, when I’m calling another business. If they want to know who’s calling, they ask. I’ve never thought it was rude in either direction.

  227. Background Check Question*

    Hello all,

    If a job seeker has a record of committing tax fraud in their personal tax returns, will that affect their getting business financial operation jobs (i.e. corporate accounting, financial analysis, revenue specialist, etc.) in the future? This is given that the job seeker have never done anything fraudulent on the company books, just fraud in their personal tax returns. How about if it is an employee who is already in a business finance role, will the employer fire the employee if the personal tax fraud is exposed?

    1. valentine*

      Hopefully, yes and yes.

      If you are the employee, there must be some kind of consultant who can help you build up and possibly restore your reputation.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      Almost certainly yes, they’d be very unlikely to be hired into any role related to financial anything, and if they did get hired (for example because the initial background check didn’t show it, or it did but someone overlooked it) and it were revealed to hire ups later, they’d very likely be fired for it at that time.

  228. Alex*

    Question/dilemma:

    I have two job offers on the table from different universities: one is at a more prestigious institution in a nice location and in a subject area I like enough to have pursued classes in on my own; the other is in an area where there’s lots to do but isn’t necessarily the most safe; the latter is also much closer to my family and has slightly better hours/less of a commute, and I’d have my own office.

    I would take either on their own. I’m mostly thinking about how my own mental health will be affected. If I take the job at the prestigious institution, I’ll be further from my family (also, the office setup is cubicles and the commute would be around an hour each way). If I take the job at the other place, I might not be as engaged in the work, and might have a harder time finding an apartment I’m at all satisfied with.

    Any advice? Salary/benefits are comparable.

    1. Ranon*

      I’m always team shorter commute. It sounds like the downsides to the further job are definites and the downsides to the closer one are maybes- I’d be inclined to take the gamble, especially if I get an extra hour a day of my life to do what I want instead of commuting.

      It also depends how particular you are about your living space and what you think the odds of finding something you’re happy with are, though- or with all the family around and things to do whether you think you’ll be spending significant amounts of time at home.

      1. Alex*

        Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I’ve gone back and forth so many times the past few days I’m about ready to flip a coin.

  229. Anxiou Job Seeker*

    If a recruiting company just posted a role for a job at a company I interviewed at last week, does that mean I didn’t get the job?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t think it means anything. Recruiting firms seem to post jobs, even if they haven’t been contracted (from what I’ve seen). Maybe they are trying to claim candidates?

  230. Teamm*

    Hi all,

    I direct a large team and are growing. We have an Assistant Teapot Director open on my team and I am looking through resumes now. One I really like but they do not have enough experience and qualifications. They CV and cover letter are better than some senior people. I will be putting another middle level (no management) job up in the coming weeks. Is it ok to have a phone interview with this person for the original role but also let them know they do not have enough experience for the current role but to please apply for the Teapot Officer Role instead? I have been put in this position before and did not like it, but I think this person would be a value add possibly to the team. What has your experience been?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If I were the applicant, I would appreciate you being upfront by saying something like, “Thanks for the interest, we don’t think you have the experience for the Director role; however, we have a search starting this week for a NonManager role. Would you be interested in being considered for that? If so, we can use your current application package or you can send in an updated package.”

      I would be annoyed at being asked to apply again, since my resume isn’t going to change much since I applied earlier. Maybe they’re not interested, but that’s their call.

    2. blaise zamboni*

      Is it a certainty that they won’t get the Assistant Teapot Director job? If there’s no way for them to get that role, I would not do a phone interview with them for that role–but you can call them and let them know, upfront, that this role isn’t a good fit but you’re interested in them for an upcoming role. If at all possible, prepare a description and general pay grade for that role before you call so you can provide that info and allow them to make a better informed decision. If an employer was honest about this situation, it wouldn’t set off any alarms for me, but if they made me stress over an interview that would never lead anywhere and then recommended a lower job I’d be piiiiiissed.

  231. Kya*

    TL;DR: I reported a sexist joke and it seems to be getting brushed off. I’m not sure how to proceed from here.

    I work for a company that works for another company, and our work is inspected daily for compliance. I am a young woman; my supervisor, Anne, is a young woman; one of the inspectors, Carla, is a young woman; while the other (and newer) inspector, Tom, is a middle-aged man. My boss, James, is a middle-aged man who usually doesn’t work in our location, but stops by when needed. There’s a lot of down time for the inspectors and supervisors, so they’re all on pretty friendly terms and used to talking and joking around with each other while they wait for stuff to get done.

    This Tuesday I had nearly finished a task, but had one thing left that I needed help with. Last Saturday, I had asked Carla for help with the same task, but it turned out that she didn’t know, and since I needed to get to my next task, she offered to figure it out for me and tell me how to do it later. (I’m hourly and they’re salary, so sometimes they’ll help when they’re bored). Unfortunately, Carla never got back to me and happened to be off on Tuesday. No problem, I’d just ask Anne and Tom. They were both in Anne’s office, laughing and joking as usual. I told him about the issue and how even Carla didn’t know how to fix it, and he says – and I quote: “Well, that was your mistake. You asked a woman first! You should have asked me.”

    Now, I admit that when I get anxious, my memory tends to shut down, so after that I only remember the general idea of what happened and a few specific snippets. I told him that was sexist, and he asked how. I told him that he didn’t know where things were because he was a man, and he said well, he knew those things, and he was a man. I again insisted that he didn’t know those things because he was a man, and he said something along the lines of if he weren’t a man, he wouldn’t exist and wouldn’t know anything, so of course he did. Then he started going on about how he was just joking and he knew Carla was very smart and most of the people who work in this company are women and know more than he does and he has a huge amount of respect for women, and in fact they moved him to this shift because he got in their way so much on the other shift, and can I imagine how hard it was for him to be the least knowledgeable one there? However, he never actually apologized or said anything that indicated that he thought what he said was wrong.

    I kept looking over at Anne (who I know has issues with confronting people and discipline in general), and she was just sitting there with a big, goofy grin, looking at both of us without saying anything.

    Looking back, I can see some sexism in Tom’s behavior. Nothing overt or harmful, just excessive helpfulness, like he didn’t think I could do things myself. Things like, instead of telling me where something went, he’d take it out of my hands while saying he’d put it back for me.

    When I reported this to my boss, James, over the phone, he just said he’d address it with Tom and Lisa, Tom’s boss. I told him how if Tom had said “that was your mistake: you asked a black person first,” most people would see that as messed up, but James didn’t react at all. I told him that I was also bothered by how Anne just sat there grinning like the whole thing was just a joke, and James said that she probably was doing that because she knew it was just a joke. She probably realized Tom was just being a guy; guys joke around. But people shouldn’t be joking in the workplace and he’d talk to them about it so it didn’t happen again. I asked if James thought it was an appropriate joke, and he responded that he never said it was appropriate, when did he say it was appropriate? I admitted he hadn’t said that, and he said he’d deal with it on Monday or Tuesday.

    However, yesterday, in front of Carla and Sarah, my team lead, Tom abruptly turned to me and said, “I was told that you were offended by my joke a few days ago. I apologize for offending you.” I wasn’t expecting it, so all I said was “okay” and he turned on his heel and walked away. For the rest of the day he ignored me.

    Now I don’t know what to do. I reported another sexist joke a few years ago and got the same response from James: not that sexism in the form of jokes is a problem, but that people shouldn’t be joking in the workplace. For that incident, the man never apologized to me, but merely stopped calling me a sexist term while continuing to use it for every other woman there. I’m concerned that the message to Lisa was “my employee was offended by yours” rather than “your employee made a sexist comment in front of two of my female employees and didn’t see anything wrong with it when confronted by one of them”.

    First of all, am I right that this was a big deal and deserves more than just a pseudo-apology? I feel like there really should be some disciplinary action. My job is fairly blue collar, so I run into a lot of subtle sexism, but I assume that anyone who’s willing to make such a blatantly sexist comment in front of two women without even a wingman around to egg him on is probably harboring some seriously misogynistic beliefs. But Tom seems so helpful and nice, it’s easy to brush it off. Is it appropriate for me to ask if he was disciplined in some way?

    Second, is it a good idea for me to tell Carla what happened? My gut says no, but I sure want to. I want to tell every woman who works there what Tom said.

    Third, if this doesn’t get addressed any further from here, how should I act around Tom? I really don’t know how to do “chilly but professional”; for me it’s either super friendly or silent treatment, nothing in between. However I realize that won’t work for someone in his position, and I could get in trouble.

    I get the impression that no one else in my workplace actually knows what sexism is or what’s wrong with it. I don’t really have a lot of social capital right now due to some performance issues I’ve had because of illness and injury, but I wish our company would offer some training so people would take it seriously. (Although, considering how things went when they tried to ban swearing, it would likely just make things worse.)

    I know I should be proud of myself for speaking up at all (I, too, have problems with confronting people), but I just feel defeated by how it turned out.

    1. WellRed*

      Please let this go. It was good of you to call out the joke in the moment but then you should have let it go. Frankly, the joke was pretty mild in terms of offense. Reporting it was a bit much, and he apologized. What else do you want? And no, you cannot ask if someone has been disciplined.

    2. Darren*

      You are probably never going to find out what (if any) discipline Tom got apart from at the very least being told that he needed to apologise to you (as you know he has done that). That stuff tends to be private between the employee, HR and management to allow for the employee to grow and develop.

      It was definitely an unwise joke on Tom’s part, how bad it was I’m not going to judge either way because it doesn’t matter, if it made you uncomfortable it’s bad enough and needed to be reported.

      I would perhaps note something that you might not have realised from your own post. It sounds like Anna and Tom get along quite well, they laugh and joke quite a bit. The fact that his humor apparently includes some sexist components may not be a problem for her so when you said he was “without a wingman” he might not actually have felt he was. This would also explain her goofy smile.

      To be clear you did exactly the right thing, but just because it offended you doesn’t mean it would have offended everyone, and also to be clear just because it wouldn’t have offended everyone doesn’t mean it was appropriate.

    3. CM*

      What we’ve learned about Tom is that he’s not super woke. He has casual sexist beliefs and reacts defensively when people challenge him. That doesn’t automatically make him a bad person — or even a very unusual person, in America — but it might mean that the two of you are not destined to be close friends.

      FWIW, I do think you were right to challenge him and that you should continue challenging sexist comments when you hear them, even if people think they’re joking. I also get that part of the reason you escalated is because Tom didn’t give you a very satisfactory response in the moment.

      What I’m getting from your question is that you weren’t satisfied with the response you got from James, so now you want to escalate the situation again — ask for someone to come down harder on Tom, tell all of your coworkers that he’s a toad, give him the cold shoulder until he relents.

      I think it’s important to understand that there’s no outcome here where Tom gets woke unless that’s what he wants. You can’t punish him into having more social awareness, you can’t shame him into having more social awareness, and you can’t unfriend him into having more social awareness. You don’t get to choose what Tom thinks, feels, or believes.

      With that in mind, I think your focus should be on coming up with strategies that will let you feel like you have integrity and like you’re standing up for yourself and for others regardless of whether anyone else agrees with you. Calling out or interrogating sexist comments when you hear them is a really good practice for that. But it’s going to feel more successful if your goal is “Live with integrity and stand up for my values” rather than “Teach that guy why he’s wrong.”

      If you want to go farther than that, and you’re concerned about the overall culture in your workplace, maybe talk to some of the other women about it. People have good luck sometimes with strategies like agreeing to draw attention to women’s contributions in meetings, or agreeing that if a specific kind of bullying happens, they’ll call it out together.

      As far as your relationship with Tom, I think it would help to think of him as being a flawed person who has some qualities you like alongside some qualities you don’t like, rather than someone who has to be either a perfect ally or an enemy. I struggle with this, too, because, if I really dislike somebody’s politics, it can feel dishonest to be friendly with them when we’re talking about dogs or something. But I think part of relating to people as an adult is that, if you both agree you need to try to get along, you work together to find a topic you can talk about without annoying each other and try to downplay the serious conflicts.

    4. tamarack and fireweed*

      Let me take a slightly different tack from the previous commenters. In my corner of the world, when we talk about sexual harassment of women at work, we use a three-part framework: sexual coercion, unwanted sexual attention and gender harassment. The last of the three is both by far the most common and the most downplayed, however, letting it flourish leads to the kind of culture in which the first two are more likely to happen. Gender harassment is for example disparaging remarks about the abilities of women, gendered or sexist, homo or transphobic jokes, put-downs linked to gender, objectifying sexual imagery in presentation decks, toleration of slurs such as “bitch” or “pussy”, etc.

      So that’s what happened to you.

      The research I’ve seen (again, for my area, which is North American academia) emphasizes the negative cumulative effect of gender harassment and the need to work on reducing it to turn the situation around. In a nutshell, most people in the abstract agree that sexual coercion (that’s the “quid-pro-quo” thing for example) and unwanted sexual attention should have consequences, and yet there are often no adequate consequences. So it’s even less likely that gender harassment will be taken seriously, with the lame justification that “it’s relatively mild”. And while I wish you the inner fortitude to be able to shake it off and put it behind you in your mind (if only because… it looks that with the scant support you received it’s the best outcome for you if you can do that), it is also true that hearing this sort of thing, with no real follow-up, will wear people down AND will encourage perpetrators.

      What I see is that this guy’s boss probably told him something along the lines of, “Kya took your joke badly, and I think you should apologize”. I would bet there was some softening elements in there, like “I know you aren’t really sexist” or “she’s easily offended” … at a minimum.

      Clearly Tom has not internalized that he *really* did something wrong. You can’t force him to change. He is — not that it excuses him — also a product of his environment. So if “total radio silence” will get you into trouble more than him, and “chilly but professional” is hard for you, I’d still advise you are as low on explicit friendliness as works for you. And if he says something, or better, if the opportunity arises, you can say something like “the sexist put-down the other day was not something I appreciate/really put a damper on my respect for you” — without more elaborations (ONE sentence, then nothing more; walk away if necessary).

      The thing that really needs to change is your workplace culture, and your influence on it is very faint. But you might be able to download/print some infographics or articles, maybe give them to your boss (“I’d really appreciate it if you looked over this material and thought about it. This isn’t a topic we will magically be able to avoid.) or HR or even leave some stuff in the tea kitchen. I don’t have great ones, but will put some links (very US-centric) in another post, which will get stuck in moderation.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Some material uses the “iceberg” metaphor. Here’s one I think is good, and you could cut off the bottom with its reference to science and academia :) . https://www.nap.edu/visualizations/sexual-harassment-iceberg/ .

        I didn’t quickly find non-academic material that’s about how to change culture, but here are two articles:
        https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-need-a-better-way-to-talk-about-sexual-misconduct/ (has also a good diagram about categories).
        https://www.inc.com/magazine/201804/minda-zetlin/sexual-harassment-workplace-policy-metoo.html

  232. S*

    If taking on part time work, is it better to be salaried or hourly as a PT employee? Not dire if I’ve thought through all the implications.

    Also how to start a conversation re: compensation when the employer hasn’t mentioned what the budget is! I am truly afraid of throwing out a number that is too high or underselling myself at too low.

    1. valentine*

      Hourly, so they don’t pay you for 20 without healthcare, then demand 32 or whatever would have made you eligible for healthcare or other benefits. Apart from that, it’s about the work and whether you’re happy with the actual hours you end up working for whichever pay scheme.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Hourly! It’s much more simple to be paid for actual hours worked.

      Unless you’re a creative, then you can charge by the project. If you go that route, make sure you have a Statement of Work contract and payment terms.

  233. citrinequeen*

    Hello! Long time reader, first time commenter here.

    I’m here for some resume help. Some background: I graduated college a year ago with a degree in theatre and am now pursuing a career as an actor. I knew full well how risky this was going to be and I am still happy with my decision – but fast forward a year later, and I am still looking for a good day job. I currently work a great part-time job as a receptionist – I got the job through a temp agency and it’s been lovely so far, but I’ve come to the conclusion that instead of looking for a second part-time job, the better thing to do would be to look for a different, full-time job with benefits.

    Since graduating, I have worked a few different jobs that were shorter-term. I felt that I learned valuable lessons from all of them. However, since they were all short-term, I’m not sure if I should even keep some of them on my resume. For example, first I worked at a summer camp right after graduation: a job that ended simply because camp was over. Following that, I worked at a restaurant for two months, before deciding that it wasn’t for me. I left that job to take a long-term temp gig as a night receptionist, which ended up being less “long-term” because a month in they decided to consolidate my job with the day receptionist. A month after that, I started my current job, which I have held for 6 months – my longest since graduating. The trick is that my brief gig before this job was kinda-sorta at the same company, but a different location (they *used* to be the same company, but they’re not anymore, but they still share a name…idk.)

    So my question is: should I list out all of these jobs in favor of not leaving a gap on my resume (since I *have* been working since I graduated, just not always at the same place)? Or should I cut out some – for instance, the two-month restaurant gig and the one-month receptionist gig, even though I felt that I learned some valuable skills at both places? For context, I am looking into jobs in a few different areas – food service, retail, and admin assistant/receptionist jobs.

    Thanks all :)

    1. CM*

      I think the standard advice would be to remove the jobs if they’re only 1-2 months. If the issue is mostly just that you want to be able to tell someone “Hey, I have done food service before, however briefly, so I’m not a total n00b, and I know what I’m getting into,” I might push that to a cover letter and use it as context for the current application.

      So, something about how you had the opportunity to work at a restaurant or as the night receptionist and you really loved such-and-such about it, but unfortunately it didn’t work out. That experience convinced you to apply for this job.

      If the issue is more than you want to show you’ve been working fairly steadily and not just hanging around, I think you could also put THAT in a cover letter by mentioning that you did some odd jobs in food service and reception, but now you really want to settle in somewhere more permanently (or similar).

      1. Agency Lady*

        I just hired two very recent grads and what stood out to me was the skills they listed on their resume in both cases. I knew I was hiring entry level positions and the fact that they had a variety of technical skills from internships and college jobs impressed me. I’d focus on that and keep your work experience appropriately light.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I would take off the restaurant stint and the short receptionist position, the 3-4 month gap there doesn’t look as bad as 2 jobs in 3-4 months. The camp can stay since it was supposed to be short. The exception would be if you really think the skills/experiences/accomplishments you did are not only valuable, but will be valuable specifically for the next job you apply to.

      1. Kiwiii*

        Also like: don’t feel too weird about small gaps and short stints. As someone who’s about 4 years out of college, I now gloss over the entire first 10 months after as I worked for about 3 months at a factory, about 2 months as a receptionist, did online transcription work, and worked a series of erratic temp gigs, and then ended up moving states about 1 month into a temp-to-hire position I really liked and thought I might stay at lol.

        Once you’re a full year removed from the gap and/or have a couple positions since, it probably won’t be too concerning for anyone. When you do make this next transition, make sure it looks thoughtful (indicate part-time to full-time, maybe) and/or is something you’ll be happy doing indefinitely, so that you get a position that’s 1 yr+ on your resume.

  234. Kuplo*

    I sent a hiring manager for choice #1 an email, stating that I had another job offer but would like her company’s position a lot more. I asked her to shoot me an email back and that I had to reply to the job offer from choice #2 by Friday. Didn’t get any emails back and I ended up declining choice #2 due to the commute. Should I email back the hiring manager for choice #1, stating that I declined offer from choice #2 and that I am looking forward to her getting back to me? She last emailed me on Tuesday, stating that she’d try to get back to me by the end of the week btw.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Honestly I think that’s a bit much. You kind of gave choice #1 an ultimatum… and they didn’t respond.
      You can try sending a message that you are still interested, but you honestly may have lost both.

      1. valentine*

        She emailed you Tuesday and you emailed her after that saying you had a Friday deadline? (Or you are not counting the Tuesday email as a response.) It’s not good if you gave her that short a turnaround time or if all you didn’t ask her a question, like, “Can you tell me what the timeline looks like?”

        I think you need to tell her you’re still interested, or she’ll rightfully assume you took the other offer.

  235. Restless Legs McNeill*

    I’d love to get your thoughts about the following. I work for a big, risk-averse F500 company. My direct employee has, despite my instructions not to do something, done it anyway (it’s a months long project that included bringing third parties on-site) and concealed it from me. I’ve taken the issue to employee relations, and it’s not clear that I can fire him for this. Obviously if that’s the case, it will factor into my employee’s evaluations…but in the meantime, I don’t know how to be. How should I be??

    1. CM*

      Be confused and then matter-of-fact. For the confused stage, just ask questions like you really, really don’t understand what’s happening, even if you do. “I’m confused about why you would do X after I asked you not to.” That kind of thing. Maybe there’s an explanation that makes sense; maybe there’s not.

      For the matter-of-fact stage, just say, “I don’t trust you with X because last time you did the opposite of what I told you to do and you couldn’t explain why so, now I want to [change the procedure somehow to make sure that can’t happen again].”

      People have memories, and it’s normal that, if somebody does something like that, you’ll remember that it happened and modify your behaviour to try to avoid having the same thing happen again. You don’t have to be a jerk, and you don’t have to display anger, but you also don’t have to pretend that you didn’t think it was a big deal if you did.

    2. Michelle*

      Your employee went against your instructions, did X anyway, brought third parties o-site CONCEALED it from you and you can’t fire them???

      1. Restless Legs McNeill*

        I don’t know if I can, at least immediately. It may be a “build a case” situation. There’s a strong interest in managing risk of a terminated employee’s suing vs. not terminating that person. I don’t like it, but them’s the rules.

  236. JudyOnHolliday*

    I have an exit interview next week for a short term ( 6 week) contract that went horribly but the managers seem to think it went well. I admit I have a bad attitude to the job now. I was super enthusiastic when we began but shit started happening almost immediately. The head manager didn’t really have any time for the job and in the first week she shamelessly scapegoated her subordinate ( not me) for her own cock up, sent me on a wild goose chase around town, gave deliberately unhelpful suggestions just to get me to stop bothering her etc and that was just the beginning. She scheduled her wedding and several vacations during this time. We did promotional events for which we were provided no promotional materials which she called ” a fun day out in the sun”. Getting paid has been like pulling teeth. Worst of all is that this was a project that centered around preparing children for a new amenity at their local park and now they won’t be getting that amenity at all because a funder fell through. I feel like such a heel, I lied to these kids.

    I am dreading this interview. I admit I behaved badly at the last staff meeting. I refused to do anymore promotional events and they said ” but you signed up for them, you promised”. They can hold that against me but I am just so fed up. I’m tired of wondering when I will be paid if at all. What do I say at the interview?

    1. juliebulie*

      My instinct (which might be wrong) would be to say “I won’t work here again because it’s been such a hassle just to get paid.” And then never agree to work for them again, because they sound like awful people to work with, and also idiots (they made you lie to kids, but they think the project went well??) plus all the difficulty in actually getting paid.

      On the other hand it might be best to say nothing. Definitely don’t bother telling them all of your grievances, because I doubt that they care. They are patting themselves on the back for a job poorly done. Nothing you can say will burst their bubble; they’ll just get mad at you.

  237. Switcheroo*

    Hi everyone! I know it’s late in the weekend but I just needed to share. I actually posted last year around this time under a different name (long since forgotten) about a new job. Lo and behold, I am once again switching as the current place has become quite toxic. I’m excited to move to the new job where I’ll be doing work towards further my career in a much smaller work environment, which I think is better for me. I’m really excited for this change – I got married this year too and I feel like getting this job has really solidified 2019 as one of my best years so far! Anyway, thanks for reading if you got this far! I hope you have a great year too!

    1. ..Kat..*

      Congratulations! On the job, the marriage, and the good year! May your year only get better.

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