open thread – December 20-21, 2019

by Alison Green on December 20, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Anna*

    I am studying for technical interviews (programming) after falling in love with programming at the beginning of this year and making it my life. Interviewing at one of the big Brooklyn companies in the new year. I’m 35. It’s never too late to be surprised!

    1. Anna*

      And to be clear—I’m where I am greatly because of this blog!! It helped me develop good workplace norms, even without a good role model at work for a long time. I am so grateful this blog exists!

    4. ten-four*

      Ayyyy welcome! I work in tech (not a programmer) and I LOVE it. I hope that soon you’ll be making gobs of money and working on interesting stuff!

    5. Tau*

      Congratulations, crossing my fingers for you! I’m a software developer and love it, so can heartily second your choice of career :)

    6. lkr209*

      Hi Anna! I’ve been looking into the tech/computer field as well for a second Bachelor’s option. Would you mind telling me how you fell into programming? What resources did you use to determine if it was the right fit for you, and something you enjoyed?

    7. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      That is so awesome for you!

      And you’re so very right about it never being too late. After a long and meandering path, I finally got a degree in Information Technology when I was 34!

    8. your favorite person*

      Good luck! My husband went back to (code) school at 30 to be a programmer and now makes double what he was making at his factory job just 3 years later. They need more women in tech.

    9. Queenie*

      Congrats!! I have been thinking about going back to school for Programming, I recently switched careers to Web Development and am totally in love but definitely need more skills. Any recommendations for programs etc? Preferably online

    10. Windchime*

      I used to process payments in a medical center, and then went back to school at the grand old age of 36. I thought I was going to study something else, but then I took a class in programming and realized I would LOVE it. I got my first programming job at 39 and haven’t looked back. I hope you love it just as much! It’s so awesome to finally find what you were meant to do, isn’t it?

    11. JoAnna*

      My husband didn’t get his degree in Software Engineering until he was 38 (prior to that, he worked in tech support). He’s now almost 45 and working at a great company as a programmer, and he loves it.

  2. Research Geek*

    Well I exercised my boundaries (something new to me) at work and pushed back against more work (I already do the work of more than 5 people) and the conversation was steered to when my last day was going to be. It was surprising but I think for the most part I am at peace. Frustrated about the crazy mismatch in culture and expectations and hoping to hone my instincts for a better fitting role in 2020.

    1. Observer*

      They really told you that if you’re not willing to do that much work, you should leave?

      That’s bad. I agree, polish up your resume and find another place.

      1. Research Geek*

        They did. I reported to the CEO and it basically was “well, then let’s talk about your last day”. All my concerns w regard to saying yes to the additional workload are coming true so in the end, I know this has worked out to my favor. this is the first time I have ever experienced this in my career so I’m slightly weirded out that I didn’t see this mismatch a mile away but I think I might not have been listening to my instincts in a long while and just chasing . Lots of thinking to do over the holidays. So thankful for this community’s support and insight.

        1. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

          Wow, sounds like you’re getting out of a Hellmouth. May you feel some delicious schaudenfraude when they call after you leave begging for information or even help. Heh heh heh.

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          I’m sorry to hear about that. Was this the first time you pushed back on the workload or had it come up before? I’m curious because my SO has had a few boundary chats with her employer and has gotten mixed responses that are skewing more negative. I have absolutely no intention of butting in on her work life, but I’m a little concerned that she might end up in a similar position and would be interested in sharing other’s experiences, if she asks for my opinion.

          1. Research Geek*

            Hi! This was the first time I really had to stand up for myself and advocate for myself because it was becoming clear that my willingness to work and triage was something they had started defaulting to. On my part, I have to be careful about over contributing to mask impostor syndrome or insecurity or whatever. But it’s always just been who I am… “eating work”. So I’m keeping that in mind. OTOH, Better leadership would have listened and taken things off my plate. I am 100% convinced that my conversation “skewing more negative” was truly the best way it could have worked out. I am watching the team continue to chase unrealistic expectations, condone bad behavior from leadership and I shudder at the mess I am walking away from.

        1. Herding Butterflies*

          It fascinates me when companies do this! I experienced this with my last job as well (handling the work load of about two to three people) and left because I was so burned out!

          Why do they DO THIS to their staff? My current company is doing to one of my teammates now. He is so overloaded and they won’t hire help. I get the financials of that we may not be able to afford to hire another person, but when Person 1 leaves – which he is thinking of doing, then the whole office will be up sh*t creek. It’s very short sighted and stupid.

            1. zinzarin*

              Expending resources in an emergency (hiring and replacing a key employee) is easier to justify than approving the resources for additional headcount… even if planning and spending for additional headcount would be more reasonable and logical than putting out a fire.

              1. Found a Name*

                Politics can also play a role. This happened with my team because even though we desperately needed the help, our ED didn’t like my boss and wouldn’t approve the headcounts. Thankfully we’ve had some changes in leadership, so we’re (hopefully) going to be getting the people and resources we need!

          2. Working Mom*

            I find it weirdly fascinating too. I was once on a team where the one department was essentially one person. Every time the hired someone for that role- they struggled, floundered – some lasted longer than others, but no one every *really* worked out. Everyone always communicated to senior leadership that “role” should really be a dept director to own strategy, and 2 workers to focus on 2 channels of business. But they insisted it was a one person job.

            1. Research Geek*

              This is exactly our scenario. There have been over 15 people who have left the team in the span of a year… not including me.

        2. Research Geek*

          Yes! I have someone shadowing me now (they hired the first person they interviewed) and she’s been very nice but also very rusty (she’s been out of the workforce for 4 years). On her first day she already used the words “freaking out”, “overwhelmed” and “hold my hand”. I am want to set her up for success but also, still practicing boundaries and saying no. I wish her all the best!

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Something similar happened to me. It was a rough couple of days, and it took a long time for me to get over some of the toxic crap at that job, but I’m so glad I left. Talk to them about severance!

    6. rageismycaffeine*

      Wow. I mean, I guess they’re consistent in being completely unreasonable? Best wishes to you for landing on your feet in a better role next year.

  3. Alternative Person*

    Had a meeting with senior management this week that boiled down to ‘If you aren’t going to sing our gospel, you should start looking for another job’

    Joke’s on them, I’m just waiting to get the contract from my new job before I turn in my resignation.

    (Also, thanks for the early thread this week)

      2. Alternative Person*

        It’s going to be a little while because I’m in Education and its the holidays, but I will.

        Honestly, I’m surprised at myself for not blurting it out in the meeting. Senior management basically took my every concern and tried to rules-lawyer around them. I held my ground, in part because I know I’m on my way out so I don’t have to play that nice but I was shaking by the time I left the room.

        Bizarrely, when I asked the satellite branch manager about some of what Senior management had told me, he had no idea! Senior management went on about what is effectively a complete shift in direction and this was news to the satellite manager. I feel like I must have stepped though the looking glass at some point.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s the best revenge!
      And it’s good you didn’t say anything just in case they’d try to sabotage new job. Let it be a surprise for them.

  4. Marmaduke*

    Any tips for finding online gig work? The curriculum development project I worked on for that last 18 months just wrapped up, and my current situation is really only amenable to online work with flexible schedules. I can scrape by if I can just make $50-100 per month, but finding work has been a struggle. I’ve worked (with consistently positive feedback!) on writing, editing, data entry/analysis, handmade items on commission, and online curriculum prep, but I’m running low on leads and on enthusiasm.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      If you’re a freelance editor, shell out for Editorial Freelancers Association membership. The first job you get off their excellent job list or from someone finding you in the directory will more than pay for it.

    2. 867-5309*

      I think you might be too broad? As an example: I’m a marketing professional and have freelanced in that field specifically. It lets me tailor my resume, LinkedIn and networking requests accordingly. It’s hard to know where to point you without having more information.

      Like, if you do handmade, then Etsy. If you knit, I think there’s a new website that connects knitters to people who want something knitted. If you want to do curriculum prep, look at online tutoring companies.

      1. Past my last straw*

        Would two resumes & 2 online presences be useful? “A.B. Smith” for the handcrafters project hunt, and Anne Best-Smith for the editorial/analysis resume.

        1. DoomCarrot*

          Yes, I think being more specific is helpful, unless you can find something that uses all those skills. (Writing DIY tutorials?)

          As for short-term gig work, maybe Amazon Mechanical Turk is a good place to look?

    3. Lyudie*

      Would you mind sharing details on the gigs you have already? Most of those are in my wheelhouse and I’ve pondered doing a little side hustle a couple of hours a week but don’t know where to start for finding legit stuff. I’ve done Etsy for handmade.

    4. AliceBD*

      Not sure if you like teaching or just curriculum prep or if you’re interested in working with kids but I’be had good experiences with both Varsity Tutors and Wyzant for online tutoring. (If anyone you know IRL uses them you may want to use a referral link to sign up.)

    5. Heat's Kitchen*

      I briefly did a stint transcribing on rev.com – if you have the time to dedicate, you can make decent money. It’s interesting too. And totally your own hours/what you put into it is what you get out of it.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I also did rev.com for awhile in college to supplement a couple months where my day job refused to give me more than 4 hrs/week (and then for a few months after graduating college). It’s sometimes hard to find things that are worth the effort for the money, but I know I made over $100/week at least a couple times (though, most of the time it was probably more like $15-$40). I also turned a friend onto their captioning service and know that they did it off and on for about a year, so they must have liked it at least a little.

      2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Rev has had … issues lately with how they’re changing their payout structures. Transcriptionists should look into The Transcription Collective if they’re interested in joining a collective that gets a bit higher wages. Here’s a link to their Twitter: https://twitter.com/ttc_transcripts

    6. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Freelance writing is a broad field. If you want something quick and don’t want to invest time into building a client base and are willing to work for less than what a professional freelancer would earn, look into platforms like Textbroker (low pay but generally ample work), Crowd Content, Writer Access, and the HOTH.

      I’ve been freelance writing for almost a decade and an extra ~$400 a week takes me maybe 10 hours or so writing nights and weekend on those kinds of platforms.

    7. Blackcat*

      Given your background, what about online tutoring? There are a number of outfits where you tutor children via skype or similar services.

    9. Ezri Dax*

      If you like teaching, there are a number of online companies that employ contractors to teach English as a Second Language. VIPKid comes to mind. They dont all pay great once you factor in taxes and such, but many do let you set your own hours.

  5. NYC Nonprofit*

    So.. reference sabotage — does it actually happen?

    I ask because 2 out of my 3 past supervisors had extremely bad reactions to when I resigned (e.g. weeks of silent treatment, exclamations like “I want to kill you right now!”) — and I’m anticipating another bad reaction from my current manager as I’m job searching to get out of the toxic org I’ve been with for 3 years.

    For context:
    Angry supervisor 1: Shortly after being hired I learned she had a temper problem and a reputation for making her assistants quit and cry because of her. She LOVED me as an employee, probably because I was a clean slate, did great work for her, and didn’t react to her tantrums. They were about to promote me when I quit for another industry. After threatening to kill me in front of her boss, the EVP, and silent treatment for 3 days, she finally “came around” in my last week and asked politely whether I could write an e-mail to her boss saying I didn’t quit for a competitor.

    Angry supervisor 2: No temper problem, but she was an extremely emotional person who definitely thought she had some sort of motherly relationship with me; there was definitely some projection going on. This was my first job in toxic org before I was promoted into a higher position in another department. Once again, I’d only ever done stellar work for her — she got me a 20% raise after 6 months and wrote in my performance review that “the agency’s main challenge will be to keep up with her tremendous talent and growth track.” She gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks after I put in my transfer until her boss told her to apologize to me and work with me on transition.

    Current Supervisor: Once again, I’m really concerned about this. My current supervisor has made tons of comments over time like “The day you ever hand me a resignation…” Once again, I do great work — but maybe too much work. Part of my duties include project management for the entire department he runs, which often crosses the line into Executive Assistant duties — and, to be honest, multiple team members have expressed concern as to whether he’d function without me and have outright said that he probably would’ve been fired awhile ago if it weren’t for me. I’m expecting a bad reaction.

    Before you say it: Yes, I know this must be a me problem somehow, and I’ve done a lot of soul searching and am working really hard on how I can establish better boundaries in the future and still do stellar work without it somehow being used against me down the line. But in the meantime — how worried do I have to be about any of these individuals being called by future potential employers? I’m not necessarily worried about outright slander, but more if they would purposely give a lukewarm reference (even though that wasn’t true) out of pettiness or resentment. Is this a thing that happens?

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      That doesn’t sound like a you problem; it sounds like you’ve had a run of bad luck. It’s not that your boundaries are bad. Please don’t blame yourself for having run afoul of a few lousy managers.

      If you don’t put their numbers/email addresses on your resume, future employers are very unlikely to try to call them.

      1. NYC Nonprofit*

        Thank you so much, I really appreciate you saying that. It’s so hard to believe it isn’t something wrong with me when it keeps happening! I’m really hoping my next job will be in a more functional and professional environment, and I’ll get to know what professional managers are truly like (because right now I feel so conditioned to just expect people to be petty and vindictive).

    3. On a pale mouse*

      Not sure this is a you problem other than maybe do more investigation before taking a job to try to avoid the toxic places (but you can’t always and it could also just be bad luck). I mean, threatening you and giving the silent treatment just for giving your notice? That is unprofessional no matter what kind of employee you have been.

      1. NYC Nonprofit*

        Thank you, I appreciate your kind comment. I really am doing as much as I can to vet the agencies I’m interviewing with – asking them difficult questions about their culture, diversity/equity practices, using network contacts to get their opinions. But I do also feel that pang of desperation, of “I just need to get out,” and am really trying to make sure I don’t land in another bad situation because of it.

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        Doing more investigation doesn’t always work. I was hired to assist brokers at a real estate firm, and Fergus, an absolutely miserable and nasty broker, started working there after I started there. Five years later, the office manager quit, and her replacement was also quite nasty.

        A rule was made that someone had to be sitting at the front desk every single second. The only exceptions were things like if the building caught on fire, or if someone ran into the office waving a gun, or if you had to give someone the Heimlich Maneuver. One day, the receptionist was out, so I was sitting at the front desk. Minerva came over to me and said that Fergus had asked her if she could sit at the front desk, so that I could go into his office and take dictation. I thanked Minerva and went into Fergus’ office. When I returned to the front desk, Circe was sitting there, looking very uncomfortable, and the office manager was standing next to her, screaming at me, “Where were YOU?” I said that I had been taking dictation from Fergus. She screamed, “Did you tell Minerva?” I said, “No, I did not tell Minerva. SHE told me. She told me that Fergus asked her if she would cover for me at the front desk, and I thanked her.” The office manager then went to Minerva and asked her if it was true. Minerva said, “Yes, but then I had to make some copies, and then i completely forgot that I was sitting at the front desk, and I went back to my desk.”

        Unfortunately for me, the office manager continued to scream and scream at me for having left the front desk unattended. She had nothing to say to Minerva. I tried and tried to get her to stop screaming, but she wouldn’t, so I said that I quit and was giving two weeks notice.

        Fergus was extremely upset that I had quit, even though we had a very bad relationship, and he asked me to beg the office manager to let me stay. I refused, and he got angry and said that if anyone called him for a reference, he would give me a terrible reference so that no one would ever hire me, and it would serve me right for quitting.

        I don’t know what kind of references the office manager and Fergus provided for me, but I did manage to find three jobs after that one, and then I retired. But, again, I don’t see how doing more investigation before taking a job helps at all when you wind up being badly treated by people who weren’t working at the company when you started there.

        1. NYC Nonprofit*

          I’m so sorry this happened to you! Good on you for getting out. It’s inspiring at least to hear that you had no trouble getting 3 jobs afterward. I guess (hope) I’m overestimating the power that these people have over my future. It’s just hard not to be paranoid. :/

          1. Just Another Manic Millie*

            Thank you. Even though Fergus threatened to give me a terrible reference, it’s possible that no one ever actually asked him for a reference. Or maybe it was an empty threat. Anyway, a couple of days after I started the first job after the real estate firm, the office manager called me to say that the secretary of the owner had quit, and she wanted to know if I was willing to take the job until they found someone permanent.

            I said cheerfully, “Oh, I can’t. I have a new job! Gee, I’m surprised that you didn’t know that. Haven’t people been calling you for references about me?” She said that she could remember only one call. I said, “Well, sometimes, one is all you need.” When I applied for the second job after the real estate firm, I was hired on the spot. I was so surprised that I asked, “Don’t you want to call my references?” They said no, because they trusted their instincts. When I applied for my next job, I got the impression that the company that hired me called only the previous job for a reference, meaning that they didn’t call the real estate firm.

    4. HA2*

      Potential employers are *extremely* unlikely to contact your past managers or coworkers unless you explicitly list them as references somewhere.

    5. Professor Plum*

      Are there others from those companies who you can list as references? Perhaps Angry supervisor 2’s boss? Think of other managers who could speak to your reputation in the companies. Good luck.

      1. Saffron Sam*

        This is more of a story than advice as I’d say the law and my duty is pretty clear, but I’m having the oddest moment of group pushback. I know Allison oft recommends speaking up a group against ridiculous policies, but can we keep it to ridiculous policies, please?

        Employee went to HR over repeated moderate harassment over her faith (yes, she had tried to speak up for herself to the employees in question to reasonable effort before seeking help). Small group of employees were told to knock it off, to succinctly summarize.

        Small group of employees are trying to “push back”, saying the faith in question has “social and cultural acceptance of being mocked” and therefore they should be able to continue their behavior.

        2. Clorinda*

          Social and cultural acceptance of being mocked? How can they even?
          I mean, what?
          Hope your HR pushed back on the push-back, because that is just BEYOND.

        3. I'm A Little Teapot*

          When people show you who they are, believe them. That small group who are trying to continue being a**holes – they just showed you exactly who they are.

        4. somanyquestions*

          The people pushing back are complete jerks and I hope everyone remembers who they are. This sort of self-righteous intolerance is almost for sure just the tip of their asshole iceberg.

        6. Artemesia*

          So Festivus? Or Flying Spaghetti Monster — can’t think of other ‘faiths’ that have a culture of being mocked.

          1. Fikly*

            It’s not the faith’s culture, it’s that other groups have a culture of mocking that faith.

            Which is to say, they’re arguing, essentially, that being racist is ok because humans have always been racist.

            1. Past my last straw*

              So it’s “because Mel Brooks makes Jewish jokes everybody else should too”?!
              Yeegads.

              1. Fikly*

                No, the opposite, because Mel Brooks is Jewish. I believe they’re arguing that, for example, since there’s an established tradition of non-Jews mocking Jewish people, it’s ok.

          2. emmelemm*

            I would guess either Scientology or Jehovah’s Witness. But either/any ol’ way, you just don’t get to mock someone at work. Even if it’s Festivus.

        7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          Holy shit, fire them all! Pretty much all mainstream religions, let alone smaller sects, have also been subject to “social and cultural acceptance of being mocked” at some point, even to the extreme of murder…Judaism, Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism…I can’t even right now…!!

      2. MsM*

        Doesn’t even have to be people higher up in the hierarchy. Could be peers you worked particularly closely with, as long as they’re senior enough to be able to assess your work from a managerial perspective.

        1. Ama*

          Yup, I have one former manager who hated me and didn’t have a clue what I did (she acquired me when my former department imploded and seemed to hold that against me for some weird reason) and two former managers who were fired for misconduct while they were my manager so I have no desire to get references from any of them. I tend to use coworkers who are maybe not technically senior to me but who were leads on projects I worked on, so they can speak to both my general work quality and how I handle having things delegated to me, and other things a manager might want to know.

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      It happens. I once had a manager who flat out lied about me to another manager I was about to interview with for an internal departmental transfer, and she told me she did it with an air of smug satisfaction. I was PISSED, but took a great deal of pleasure out of watching her melt down when I accepted an internal promotion into another division a month later. She sat at her desk and cried while writing my new management team a nastygram about how unprofessional they were to poach one of her employees (the AVP who hired me predicted she would be mad after he read my performance review from her where she raved about how talented I am, but I don’t think he saw that nearly two page long email coming, lol).

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      Yes it happens. To test if it is happening to you, enlist a professional sounding friend who can call them and act as a reference.

      That way you can get facts and not have to worry.

      2. Senor Montoya*

        Good suggestion. I’ve done that for friends, both on the phone and, in academia, by requesting the friend’s dossier. While I did not tell my friend what the letters said — that’s a professional and ethical breach, the letters were written in confidence — I did say, You should have X letter replaced.

        1. Elitist Semicolon*

          If the letters were written in confidence, how was it not an ethical breach for you (not an actual hiring party) to read them?

          1. Fikly*

            They’re in confidence between the reference giver and the reference seeker. Thus the ethical breech is if the contents are disclosed to the person the reference is about.

      3. Phoenix Programmer*

        Reading your other comments i think you should have a professional sounding friend call these managers pretending to be a thorough employer. If there is anything untruthful you can send a cease and desist. Most likely they wont be interested in saying much and you can cross it from your mind. Or you may be surprised to hear they have glowing reviews of you.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Yes – having a friend give areference , if you haven’t worked for them, s ift, but having one pose as a potential employer to discover whether the former manager is badmouthing you is reasonable .

    8. Heat's Kitchen*

      Don’t give the names of these people as references. Have other colleagues you’ve worked with. Usually if a company calls to verify employment, they’ll talk to an HR person, not ask for your previous manager. Not saying it will never happen, but why give the recruiter their name and make it easy.

      2. Anon Here*

        I’ve done this successfully when I’ve had bad managers. Ideally, I like to list a different manager who I had a better experience with plus a co-worker who I worked alongside. They might talk to the bad manager, but they’ll also call the people you list so list people who will balance out the negative stuff.

    9. NYC Nonprofit*

      Thank you everyone! I didn’t intend to ever explicitly list these people as references – and yes, I do have plenty of other people at both the peer and manager level who can speak to my work.

      But doesn’t it look sketchy that I’m missing so many past supervisors as references? What if I’m pressed by a company to offer my most recent manager, or X number of direct managers? Is it acceptable to say something like “For full disclosure, while I did stellar work under this manager during my time with him, he had a particularly bad reaction to my resignation – so I’ll also be providing the info of coworkers A, B, and C who can speak to my work in this role. I can also provide a copy of my performance review under this manager so you have the full context.”

      Or is that too much?

      1. Senor Montoya*

        No, I wouldn’t give all that info. It’s going to sound excuse-y and while I may objectively understand that it could be true, it’s going to feel off and set off a tiny alarm bell for me. If you have to give your current supervisor, do that, and be sure in your interview that you talk about the excellent performance reviews this person gave you. Be sure to have other references who are at or above your supervisor’s level, especially at your current place of employment.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          Agreed. Also, it looks like at least 1/3 of those supervisors covered a job where you stayed in the company via transfer. I wouldn’t even think to provide a reference for every department I’ve worked in, just each company. I’ve had couple hires since the job where I transferred departments and it hasn’t been a problem. So your number of “missing” supervisors is really only 1-2. Don’t fret about it and don’t address it unless it comes up!

    10. Cowgirlinhiding*

      Absolutely – had it happen to me in an old position where the admin was disgruntled with me and she would answer all the calls for references and give horrible references – like I would hire my dog before hiring Cowgirlinhiding. Luckily I had a manager that told HR go back and talk to the real reference and I landed the job. It was just a few short days before new manager told me what happened and I filed a complaint with former job HR (people I knew personally) and never looked back. Didn’t need that reference anymore and those that worked there all moved on to better positions.

    11. Shark Whisperer*

      It totally does happen. At OldJob, we were hiring and someone from another department applied. Their current manager gave a terrible reference, but her references from other jobs were glowing. The hiring manager did some digging and asked around at other department because the bad reference didn’t make any sense. It turns out her current manager was pretty vindictive (which was exactly why she was trying to transfer departments). We hired her anyway and she was awesome!

      The moral of this story is that it’s usually pretty clear if one reference is out of line with what other references are saying. If your prospective employer is going to go off-list with your references, they will probably do enough to figure out if the lukewarm/bad reference is accurate or not.

    12. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It does happen, however just because someone reacts emotionally when you gave notice doesn’t mean they’ll carry that over into being a bad reference. Most people can be angry or upset but still remain ethical; except for the anger management person — she’s probably an issue. Line up references from as many sources as you can anyway — it’s a good idea since people leave or their contact info changes, or…

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        This! Reacting very poorly (understatement) to your resignation doesn’t mean they won’t give you a good reference after some time has passed. (So, your most recent one before your current role might be a pass, but the others might be water under the bridge.)

        Granted, reference sabotage isn’t beyond the realm of possibility with the personalities you’ve described, but a phone call/email to the former bosses requesting a reference is a good way to start. Even if they agree, carefully read between the lines of everything they say to help gauge whether they really mean it. Also, think back and consider how they referred to previous employees when you worked for them. Did they permanently see every former employee as a ‘betrayer’? Were there any exceptions?

        In other words, you might still have salvageable references here. Not excusing their behavior, but part of the reason they reacted so badly (and, uh, murdery) was because of your strong work ethic. They saw that you were a strong employee and had (occasionally murderous) misgivings about you leaving.

        …That’s a sentence I never thought I would write. Anyways, good luck in your job search! I really hope you find a good boss, if only to help you understand just how terrible those other ones were to you.

        1. LQ*

          I agree with a lot of this. I work with someone who doesn’t react well when really excellent people leave and considers it a betrayal. But he gets over it, and he gives people who were excellent glowing references. I’ve seen a couple (on the other side from folks who have left going “WHOAH, I thought he hated me forever but you need to see this reference”) and they really were some of the most powerful references.
          Ethical, but not always quite as grown up as is appropriate.

          If someone is and holds to, an ethical behavior standard pretty hard and this would be (for them) included in ethical behavior then even if they behave poorly you’ll likely be ok. That said anyone who thinks it’s ok to sabatoge someone should be assumed to sabotage you. Once a saboteur, always a saboteur.

    13. Mazzy*

      Yes, I found out that the job that I gave my life to for years gave me a middle of the road reference. I guess they didn’t register everything i did and somehow saw me and a complainer since, shockingly, I only contacted HQ or my boss when there was an emergency or my skeezy coworker was doing something sleazy. Somehow it put a negative aura around me apparently. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You’re too independent, it’s negative/cynical, too dependent, then you can’t think for yourself.

    14. Wish I had a clever name here*

      For every past job I always put name of supervisor and HR as the contact number. They’ll give the most basic info or just rehire-able or just confirm you worked there based on company policy. I’ve only had to have them directly provide a reference for two of my jobs, and it was asked after I already offered the position. One was academia and the other is my current job at the VA. I was worried about my last boss but had other references I knew would be positive and contradict anything negative that she said.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      Definitely not a you problem!
      You do good work and haven given these people a respectful notice. You’re not doing anything bad ir wrong by wanting to move on.

      I think the first two will give you a good reference because it sounds like they’ve nothing to complain about other than you left! And it also sounds like they did come around once they got over it. But if you have doubts, give the name of the person above them or HR if there was an HR department.

      New jobs don’t generally expect your current boss to give a reference if you’re still employed there.

  6. Late to the game*

    Has anyone tried to get hired by the Census? College graduate, willing to type, go house to house, whatever, and no call after submitting an app six weeks ago. :(

    1. Sandy*

      Yes, I have. You’ll get offered a job at some point but a) it’s government and moves at the speed of molasses and b) they recruit waaaay out in advance of needing the staff, so depending on the area, it’s possible they may not call you until March.

    2. Amy*

      Six weeks is nothing. I was called three months later… a d I’m already a government employee with all the required background checks.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My ex worked for the census last time around and it took them four months to call him after he applied.

    4. ten-four*

      Not the census, but my husband got an offer from the gov 10 months after applying with 8 months of silence in between. Hang in there!

    5. yeah going anon for this one Because Reasons*

      Please hang in there! It’s just that governmental hiring is v e r y s l o w. Trust me when I say that the Census is still hiring because it definitely is.

      Also if you’re applying for an enumerator position, that work will really kick off closer to March.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      The process is apply now, work starts in March. Runs through maybe September, depending.

      Note that Census employment income may not affect public assistance payments such as food stamps (or at least in NYS) so taking this temp position won’t un-do those benefits.

    7. RC Rascal*

      I worked for the 2000 Census. They sent a postcard to my house ( mass mailing) and positioned it as an opportunity to serve your community. In 2010 I was unemployed & applied again but couldn’t get hired despite the 2000 experience. Bought my coffee table with the dollars from the 2000 experience.

    8. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Echoing others to say that the process is just very slow. I would expect that they’ll eventually give you a call, because I’ve read stories already about how they’re having a really hard time hiring census workers in this tight labor market! So hang in there.

    9. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      I completed the application in early November (so I would be prepared to help library patrons when they filled it out) and answered the questions legitimately, and haven’t heard back. I think it’s par for the course. The standard operating procedure of the US government is “hurry up and wait.”

    10. Anon4This*

      My husband works for Census and got picked up as a term employee (1 or 2 year contract position) immediately before the 2010 count. Basically, someone he worked with’s spouse was higher up in the 2010 decennial had him fast-tracked. He got an interview the same week and then waited four weeks to be hired – and that’s very fast for the government.

      Once the term was up, he had to reapply for job within the bureau in order to continue to have a job, but being on the 2010 team made him a lot of contacts, and he was picked up full-time. He bounced around to three different teams his couple years before getting picked up by his current one, and he’s been with them for about 8 years.

    11. Tzeitel*

      I would consider calling your local elected official or even getting in contact with community organizations because there might be census outreach work you can do locally before you hear from the federal government. Just a thought.

    12. Princesa Zelda*

      I’m in your same basket; I don’t think they’ve hired any enumerators at all yet. I just talked to a recruiter yesterday at the library, and she said they will probably do interviews/job offers closer to March.

  7. On a pale mouse*

    I think it’s time to get out of retail. I spent most of today wanting to shout at customers, which is not a good mental place from which to provide good customer service. And this is for minor stuff that’s annoying but also totally routine and part of what you sign up for when you work retail. Also recently I feel like instead of “thank you for shopping at [Store]” I should just be saying “thank you for stealing at [Store].” The shoplifting and scamming have been ridiculous the last few weeks. That’s not helping my general misanthropy level.

    1. Rake*

      I thought I was an angry misanthrope until I quit customer service. It turns out I’m actually very friendly and interested in people when I’m not dealing with thousands of them in a day. My entire disposition changed when I finally found a job I enjoyed. I can totally empathize with wanting to shout about basically routine annoyances. Hypersensitivity to the small things was another side effect of being in a job that I was fundamentally unsuited for. Which is all a long way to say…yeah maybe it’s time to leave retail

    2. Stephanie*

      I was in retail for about 10 years, so I sympathize. It’s a brutal business, especially this time of year. When I dreaded going in to work every single day, and was fighting the urge to yell at customers and coworkers, I knew it was time to get out. It sounds like you’re in a similar place.

    3. Kesnit*

      This time of year sucks for retail. (My wife has worked retail her entire adult life, and I worked 1 holiday season in retail.) If you can get through the next few weeks, you are past the worst. You can do it.

    4. Daisy-dog*

      It would really set me off when I found cups abandoned on the shelves. It’s been 6 years and I can still feel my blood boil.

      It might be worth exploring another field or it could just be that you’re in the final stretch (5 more shopping days til Christmas! Including today depending on your time zone – stores haven’t opened yet for me) and it’ll be so much better in about a week. I was in merchandising and always liked the spring-trans products – usually so simple & chic. And the store just looked clean again.

      1. River Song*

        I do not understand the cups/trash thing! I don’t condone the putting some random item on a random shelf thing, but I could be compassionate and think maybe they had to leave the store quickly or something. But setting your trash or empty cups down for someone else to clean up? The world isnt your trashcan. Hold it until you find one.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t know, I think a lot of people just do it on accident. I certainly have. You set your cup down to do something that requires two hands, it’s pretty easy to forget to pick it back up, especially if it’s empty.

          1. Daisy-dog*

            Often it would be placed in a corner hidden behind the clothing. So likely not unintentional in that case.

        2. AnonEMoose*

          I once found a pound of raw hamburger sitting on a random shelf of canned goods. I wasn’t about to touch it, because I had no idea how long it had been there, and I knew I wouldn’t be able to wash my hands right away. But I did report it to the next employee I saw. But still…WHO DOES THAT?!

    5. Joie*

      I used to feel like that constantly, I still get that feeling when out in crowded spaces, but turns out I actually like people when I left retail. Retail shopping especially Christmas shopping seems to brings out the absolute worst in people – their family / life drama becomes your fault because obviously you are the idiot because they wanted the hottest toy for their kids and their bad planning that you don’t have any is obviously you insulting their mother (insert eye rolling emoji here)

      I made the jump about 12 years ago, and transitioning to reception / admin from retail is actually a lot smoother then you’d think! I didn’t go corporate, I went smaller construction companies first and I was told after the fact the reason I got the job was the dildo story (I worked at an adult store before it) and the just the years of customer service and ability to deal with all the WTF retail brings.

    6. Amy Sly*

      Weirdly, there’s a part of me that would go back to retail if it paid what I’m making now. Yes, customers are terrible; I just default to assuming most are going to be thoughtless, stupid, and condescending (and that way I get mostly happy surprises!). But there was a real pleasure in being able to help someone directly, interact with them in person instead of phone calls and emails, and build relationships with the regulars. Of seeing them walk in in pain and walk out with a smile on their face half an hour later. Even organizing the stock room and straightening the floor. (Granted, I was in boutique comfort shoe shops.)

      I don’t mind what I do, but I like having something more tangible done at the end of the day than the knowledge I inconvenienced a lot of electrons.

    7. alannaofdoom*

      I sympathize! I did a few years in a retail boutique and the last stretch of the holidays was always the wooooooooorst. My tradition was to listen to the NPR recording of David Sedaris’s “Santaland Diaries” before I went to work.

      Maybe it will help you: https://www.npr.org/2016/12/23/506475364/a-holiday-tradition-david-sedaris-reads-santaland-diaries

      Almost there! Just a few more days and you’ll get some relief! I’m sending you all my most patient and easygoing vibes.

    8. voluptuousfire*

      I hear you! I ran to Old Navy last night and the woman behind me in line complained about how when it was in the local mall (which was 8 years ago at this point), the lines moved faster. She said this about 3 times in the 10 minutes we were waiting. We only waited that long since there was an issue with a gift card with one customer. After her 4th complaint, I turned around and said “I worked at Old Navy for several years back then. It was a larger store with a larger staff. They’re moving forward as quickly as they can. Have patience and empathy, it’s the holidays!” She shut up immediately.

      2. Gumby*

        The holiday shopping season is the worst. People who otherwise are able to pass as civilized somehow lose all ability to cope and take it out on retail staff.

        My mother once watched aghast as someone was unspeakably rude to a cashier at Macy’s and once the woman left, she commiserated with the cashier and then went out and *bought a hot chocolate and brought it back* because that customer was just that bad. (I’m pretty sure she asked beforehand if a coffee/hot chocolate / candy would be okay, and the cashier was about to go on break or something. All I remember is that she was really grateful and almost in tears. It was like “I can’t help that you have to deal with manner-less people all day, but here’s some sugar to help you get through.”)

    9. Mockingjay*

      I was holiday shopping yesterday. In a local department store, I stared aghast at the piles of clothing mounded on both sides of the register and on the counter behind the lovely clerk who was ringing up my purchase.

      Me: “Are all those…returns?”
      Clerk: “yes ma’am, they are.”
      Me: “Goodness! People really need to take a few moments to consider whether they really want it before they buy something.”

      This department store belongs to a national chain with a terrible reputation, but our local unit is always staffed by the nicest, kindest staff I’ve ever encountered.

      On behalf of rude customers everywhere, I offer sincere apologies to you and thanks for a job well done in an industry that takes you for granted, especially this time of year.

    10. A Poster Has No Name*

      I have a retail job as my side gig, and I mostly get ragey at my lazy-ass coworkers vs the customers. But I don’t cashier (much), so there’s that.

    11. Donkey Hotey*

      “Show me someone with a deep and abiding hatred of humanity and I will show you someone who has worked retail customer service.”
      I’ve been there friend (great user name, btw). You’ve got four more days. You can do it.

    12. Wish I had a clever name here*

      I worked fast food and retail for 13 years! Now I will apologize for the person(s) in front of me and compliment them on their professionalism or if I can tell they’re emotional that they did nothing wrong. I will even go speak to the manager about situation and/or provide positive feedback on my experience because I know how vindictive people can be over nothing! So many people look down on those working these types of jobs when they have no idea of the reason(s) why someone is.

  8. Jackalope*

    Soooo, I have a question about an exciting thing at work and how to make the most of it: what is the best way to take advantage of having a mentor?

    Background: I’ve been at my job for over a decade, and had spent the first several years working towards the position I’m in now. I’ve been in this specific position for about three years now and have mostly been loving it. I can see, however, that it might not be a job to last 20 more years (I’m in one of the few remaining fields where people often stay with their employer their whole career, and I’ve loved the first 10 years so am very open to that). Since my first several years were working towards this I got here, looked around, and thought, “Oh dear; I have no idea what might be next!”

    Our employer has the opportunity for people who’ve been around for awhile and want this to be their career to be mentored by a senior employee to help guide them to future steps. Squee moment that I was chosen to be in this program, and now have a mentor to work with me for the next few months.

    Now that I have my mentor, however, I’m floundering a bit. She’s lovely and has clearly done this before and has some ideas, but I’m a bit stymied by the fact that I’m not sure what I want next. I’ve always wanted to avoid the management path and she’s fine with helping me down a more technical path, but I don’t know for sure if that’s what I want or not (it did come to me that my one horrible experience as a supervisor [at a previous job] came when I was completely unaware of what the job entailed, had no training in any way, and was a woman in charge of an otherwise all male team while living overseas in a very patriarchal culture, so maybe it’s not always as bad as I think?).

    So does anyone have some ideas on how I can get the most out of this mentorship relationship when my current career plan is, “I dunno, stay here, do something, not sure what but would like to know more”? All of my past mentoring experiences (as both mentor and mentee) involved a newbie to a position being guided to greater proficiency by someone who’s been in that job for awhile. I’m really not sure what to do when I already know my current job and am just training for a nebulous (but hopefully good) future at some other to be determined position.

    Thoughts?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      First of all, management is definitely not for everyone, just like a technical path is not for everyone. Don’t feel guilty for being you.

      That said, relationships are essential in all job functions. I’ve gotten the most out of mentoring relationships like these by walking through real situations related to how I handle interpersonal things, either to figure out next steps or to do an ‘after action review’ of what I did. Talking about real situations just feels less.. trite? than having long drawn out big picture stuff. Things like “hey, I have to make a presentation to communicate technical things to leadership, can you take a look at it and make suggestions?” or “The other day, I had this challenging situation where 2 people on my team disagreed on the definition of a word, here’s what I did, what do you think I could modify for next time>”

    2. Buttons*

      One of the best things you can do with this mentorship is learning more about the company, business, industry. Regardless if you choose to stay in a technical role or to move into management, knowing more, at a higher level is always beneficial. One thing that often happens when women are being mentored is the mentor focuses on soft skills- networking, communication, “branding.” While men being mentored are taught more about the business, industry, budgeting, etc.
      So focus on what you don’t know in those areas. Ask your mentor- “what do you wish you knew before starting this position? (you can also ask about phases in her career)
      Ask her what her career goals were, and about her career path.
      Ask her about lessons she has learned along the way that may have shaped relationships, outcomes, etc
      Ask her about hiring/interviewing people, managing people
      Together set some goals such as identifying learning opportunities for you (either technical or management)
      If budgeting is something you don’t have experience with, you could ask her to show you how she manages her budget. This is often something new leaders do not have much experience with and can often prevent them from moving further up because they haven’t had budgeting experience.
      Finally, I would literally search “mentoring in ” and see what more industry specific questions you can ask.
      Good luck!

    3. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Book recommendation for the question of what you’re aiming for: “Is Your Genius At Work”.

      Also, I think Nancy Kline may have written about mentoring situations, but I can’t remember which book.

    4. Found a Name*

      At my last mentor meeting, we actually spent the whole time figuring out what my next steps in the next few years would be! We spent a lot of time discussing the pros and cons of moving into management vs staying an individual contributor. It was really helpful to hear her perspective about being a manager in our organization, and I’d encourage you to talk to your mentor about it as well. I know you said you’re not interested in management, but it’s entirely possible it was due to your previous experience, and things at the new place might be very different! And your mentor is definitely going to be able to give you an honest perspective.

      My mentor also made the great point that throughout a person’s career, they can shift from management to IC and back – it’s fluid, and you’re not locked into management forever. It also never hurts to develop your leadership/project management skills, because no matter what job you’re in, those skills will always come in handy.

  9. flow*

    Finally catching one of the FFAF! Thank you Alison as always for creating this community, I am SO grateful for the insights and knowledge from fellow readers.

    So I used to have ‘Tired’ as my handle here, but I’m changing it up just to prevent the self-deprecation for more than necessary. I was recruited by my ‘best’ friend to work in a company that her foreign boss wanted to make in this country, and she herself works in that office overseas whilst she wants me to lead the local office. I was very naive and agreed to the abysmally low pay (not even 30% of avg pay for my position) and doing every single thing at the office alone, my friend became defensive whenever I tried to give input and asked for a raise, gave me absurd excuses such as “Mr.Boss said you need to work for a year first here, besides I will have to get a raise too if you do” whilst her position was getting a salary from that overseas office as well as this local office. And then I found out she’s been withholding information to the big boss, as well as giving false insight about the local market (to protect her position??). I’ve tried working for a year here, and came to the conclusion that my friend doesn’t care about me as a boss and as a personal friend, and so I resigned and my last day will be next week. Huzzah!

    She didn’t even ask me why I resigned LMAO why am I so surprised and so hurt by that.

    So now I’m basically about to be jobless, but I really want to move overseas and start a new life there due to personal reasons. I initially just started looking for ways to move anywhere in the world, but my therapist said that I should also focus on what kind of life I want to build in my destination. I want to try Canada or Japan, but gods why is everything so expensive…
    Does anybody have any tips on moving overseas when I’m limited economically and have so-so grades/resume? My English is good but I’m not a native speaker, and my portfolio is okay as far as Web Designers go. Right now I’m looking to borrow money from my parent, to start lessons in Japanese and getting certification for N2 level (almost native), but I’m almost always in panic state because I don’t want to not have a regular monthly income/have a too-long gap in my resume…

    Also what should I write in my resume for this underpaid position as COO for only 1 year? Should I just say the truth, along the line of “I was recruited to work together with a friend but it didn’t work out”? Or should I elaborate more?

    1. Mameshiba*

      Hello, posting from Japan!
      You won’t be able to work here unless you get a job that will sponsor your working visa. It’s hard to break in as a foreigner if you have no network locally. Most people here don’t speak English so jobs will be relying on your language skills, so I would avoid downplaying your English (it sounds good enough to be functionally native anyway). I would also research the job market–is there demand for English-speaking web designers? As for Japanese language skills, basically you have to be fluent, or good enough at your chosen profession that you’re worth hiring anyway. Not sure how good your Japanese is–are you just starting out, or close to N2? If you are just starting lessons N2 is not a realistic goal!

      Japan is not cheap and not easy to break into, especially with low language skills. Moving within Japan is crazy expensive, and moving overseas is never cheap. I would do a lot of research before hopping over here, it’s nothing like Canada and not beginner-friendly if you’re on your own. (I do love it here but just want to give you the real deal, it’s not a country move you should consider lightly).

      1. Mameshiba*

        And in case you were considering it, yes many people do work in Japan as language teachers, but this is going to be difficult (which is Japanese for impossible) for you as a non-native English speaker. Jobs that hire non-native English speakers as English teachers do not pay well (students are “settling”). If your native language is French, German, Chinese, or Korean then you might be able to work with that (I hear there’s demand for Spanish as well for athletes), if not then there is unfortunately very little market.

        As you research I would encourage you to note whether the source is a native English speaker, because their experiences might not apply to you (and it’s very different to live here as an English speaker on an expat program with a fat salary vs. not North American/UK/Australia/NZ standard English speaker (or not an English speaker at all) with less money).

        1. Flow*

          Hi! thanks for the reply. I went on a short course in Kyoto and as of now I’m on around N3 level and often worked on casual translations, so I can understand nuances (in fact, I love translating to be as true as the source materials haha) and I’m quite sure that I could reach N2 within half or a year. I hope the N2 could boost my hirability, if not in Japan then in other countries that need people who speak the language fluently.

          I’ve heard/read stories about the difficulties of working in Japan, even for native English speakers and I want to research further to have realistic expectations on living there, really. I’ll keep your suggestion in mind. Do you think the N2 certificate can boost my chance of being hired by a Japanese company?

          1. Nanashi*

            They love certificates, so just having the N2 on your CV is good, but being able to communicate in a business environment is more important. Ideally being able to interview in Japanese is what you want for way higher chances. I’m sure you are aware but N2 or even N1 have nothing to do with language fluency.

            Also it is much easier to find a steady job once you are already based in Japan, think language school for one or two years, attending university, teaching in a language school as a contractor. Employers dislike dealing with temporary visitor visas, but it’s easier to change a long-term status.

            The most important thing is your actual field of expertise though. Unless you are narrowly specialized in an in-demand industry, you have to be ready for many challenges, long stints at entry level with lowered chances for promotion, and lots of cultural peculiarities that clash with your personal common sense. Corporate culture in Japan might not be worth the effort.

            1. Flow*

              Noted! Thankfully there are Japan job fairs here and neighbouring country that I can visit and drop my CV in. I’ve interviewed with one of them before, and sadly didn’t get recruited on the final interview with users. I hope the N2 might boost that up when I try again in the future. Was also considering language school as some of them provide help with finding jobs, but it’s going to be Plan C or D, I think.

              Thank you for the input!

              1. Nanashi*

                Also if there is a need for therapy for any mental health issues, you do not want to be in Japan for the next ten or twenty years, unless your therapist works through video calls. Medication is another issue: things might not be available because of strict regulations, or because they are considered “omg drugs!”, or they are available only if you are hospitalized, or the maximum allowed dosage is too low, etc. And I can guarantee that the accumulated stress will exacerbate any preexisting issue. Japan is fun to be in, but there is A LOT to consider, for all that it’s a first-world country.

              2. Mameshiba*

                Late replying–yes N2 is helpful but if you want to work at a company at one of the job fairs (I’m thinking along the lines of Boston Career Forum etc) you will need N1+ fluency. Even with that, most of those career fairs are really looking for Japanese people who can speak some English, and the fairs are aimed at Japanese students studying abroad in that country. If your language school is in Japan, then that might be easier as you can job hunt while you’re there–few companies are willing to sponsor a visa from overseas. And unfortunately there aren’t a ton of other countries that require Japanese language speakers–Hawaii/west coast of North America, Peru/Brazil/other South America, and tourist-focused positions in Asia like in Taiwan, Korea, etc. You might be able to use your native language as a boost if it’s Spanish or Chinese.

                N2 is better than nothing but the days where you could show up as a foreigner and say “hire me, I kinda speak your language” are long gone. Would you hire someone in your country/America who could speak conversational English but struggled with business meetings and documents? They’d need to be pretty damn good at whatever their job was, right? And would you take a chance on that stranger enough to ship them in from overseas? Same thing here.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        Another overseas resident here.

        If you want to move to another country or work there (not just visiting as a tourist) you need a resident visa. There are a few ways of doing this, but it’s not necessarily easy. You can do it through family (marry a citizen, be sponsored by a family member who is a citizen, come in as the spouse of a work visa holder). You can get it through getting a job with an employer who is willing and able to sponsor you for a work visa (usually requires specialized skills), you can come in as a student (usually limits or prohibits working, and requires you to demonstrate that you can support yourself while there or a scholarship). I’m a PhD academic, came over as a researcher for a government institute, and was eligible for permanent residency after a number of years of work.

        Canada is likely to be easier – there are more paths for generalized immigration, and you speak the language – but most are linked to having desirable job skills, being a business owner, or related to someone who is a citizen. It’s also a more popular destination than Japan, so there’s more competition. There’s lots of info on line for prospective Canadian immigrants, and on how to avoid scams.

        Japan is hard if you don’t have a job, and your average Japanese company isn’t interested in hiring non fluent foreigners. I will note that the lower end English teaching jobs in Asia are often hired based on having a passport from an English speaking country, not your actual language skills, because the people hiring can’t necessarily tell the difference between a native and non native speaker by accent. The better jobs, though, require teacher training and experience. And it’ll be easiest to get a job if you have a US or Canadian passport and are white.

        Japan is crazy expensive to move to – plan on having six months rent in hand to rent an apartment, for example, between first month’s rent, deposit, mandatory present to the landlord, and agency fees. Living in Japan is expensive, but not as bad as you might think, if you live like the locals (in Tokyo this means a very tiny apartment, and a two hour one way commute by public transit). Smaller cities are cheaper, but also a lot more isolating for foreigners – fewer resources, fewer people to socialize with, standing out a lot more).

        If you have a job lined up you don’t necessarily need a ton of money to move, if you’re willing to move with nothing more than your luggage allowance on the flight, but you do need to have a couple of months of living expenses, plus enough cash in hand to cover renting an apartment (see sixth months rent above), buying a transit pass, and getting settled in.

        1. Flow*

          I agree, Canada seems to be the easier option for me, as current news stated that they are making it easier for people to immigrate, and my qualifications are in one of the Human Capital Priorities Stream. I just have to further list down what I need to move, and research about the actual living condition there.

          As for Japan, I have some ideas about how isolating it can be for non-Japanese, but I can pass easily as one and I already have several friends who live there and some native friends that could show me the ropes, though I hope I can survive on my own without having to rely on them. This is actually one of the homeworks my therapist assigned me; look up ways to survive daily there (knowing about how to do my tax, where to find local communities from my country, etc) and plan out as detailed as possible so that I know what to do exactly if I go there.

          Thank you for the input!

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            Easier FOR CANADA. It is still quite difficult to immigrate here, and you would also need a visa for a job (and proof of job in-hand) before you would be considered.

          2. AcademiaNut*

            I will warn you that, oddly enough, in many ways looking Japanese, or being of Japanese heritage but raised elsewhere, can be harder than being a complete foreigner. If you’re a complete foreigner and you make any effort at all to learn the language and customs, you’ll get positive reinforcement and compliments, and people will not expect you to possibly be able to follow all the rigid unwritten rules of the culture. If you look like you should fit in, the expectations will be a lot higher. You’ll be asked why your Japanese is so bad, and be expected to follow all those rules, and judged when you fail.

            In other words, passing as Japanese abroad in no way means you can pass as Japanese in Japan. My husband, who *is* born and raised Japanese, and lived there until the age of thirty before moving abroad, is regularly mistaken for a foreigner when he goes back to visit. He gets compliments on his mastery of the language, but he’s a native speaker! But after more than a decade abroad, his body language and fashion choices have shifted enough that he doesn’t fit in.

            Another thing to consider is that it can be very hard to find comparable therapy options in a foreign country, between language issues, different medical systems, and often radically different approaches to mental health. So you might want to consider whether you can keep on remotely with your local therapist (at your own expense) or do without after moving there.

            1. Mameshiba*

              Seconding this. I definitely have the best possible positioning as a white person who speaks Japanese–I get effusive praise for reading my own email, and I get to opt out of rigid cultural expectations (I’m taking off early for Christmas instead of staying until the 27th and helping with year-end cleaning. My boss’s response was “Of course you are, have a good time.” I don’t think I’d get off so easy if I was Japanese!)

              Meanwhile, I have friends like Acadamia’s husband who are Japanese by blood but have studied or lived abroad and they have a much harder time because they confuse people. Are you Japanese (in which case why are you so dumb/rudely not doing what you should) or are you not Japanese (in which case I guess you don’t know better/why are you here)? Plus there is a lot of racism towards Chinese, Koreans, and southeast Asians like Indians and Filipinos… so not only do you blend in too much for anyone to help you when you’re lost, you get confused for a dumb local, or a dirty foreigner.

              Disclaimer that I do absolutely love living here! It is much safer and easier than back home for me right now, and I’ve managed to build a career and family here. Many foreigners do make it and we build a community while we have an adventure. But it’s not a decision to make lightly, and it’s not easy or cheap. So you should really think if it’s the best choice for you where you are right now (remember you can always come visit!)

    2. 867-5309*

      I recently returned to the United States after living in Europe and can tell you it is difficult, if not impossible, to move to another country if you don’t have a well-sought after skill set or the ability to show how you will support yourself in that country. Most also have language requirements, unless you are able to secure a work visa. And yes, it will be thousands of dollars to get a work visa unless a workplace is willing to fund it, which again is unlikely unless you have an especially compelling resume. Sorry for the bad news there.

      You might be able to get a job-seeker visa, which is usually a few months. And if you’re under a certain age, I think the work requirements are different.

      A gap in your resume will hurt your opportunities abroad, so I would encourage you to find freelance work, at the very least. Also, see if there are related Facebook groups that can give you more localized advice. Example – I joined the Americans in Norway group when I lived there.

      re: Japan – you could look at teaching English.

      As for your second question: You definitely don’t want some bitter or aggressive on your resume. That should focus on what results you were able to achieve, keeping in mind the kind of work you WANT to do. You’re better of saying in an interview, “I was recruited by a colleague for this position. The job description didn’t match the position and I’m looking for something like (position you’re applying to) that lets me focus on (type of work).”

      1. Flow*

        Thank you for your input! It’s okay, I would rather have all the blunt truth than trying to have a too high expectations.

        Yes, I’m also doing freelance works right now, though hopefully I will find a job in February or so (I will have an eye surgery in January and it might take a few weeks to fully recover.)

        And true, I don’t want to unintentionally sound bitter in my resume/interview. Is it possible that an interviewer would pry?

        1. 867-5309*

          Doubtful. Most interviewers know that good candidates aren’t going to bash their former/current employer. If they ask how the job description vs. actual job differed, just be prepared with an answer.

          Something like, “I was prepared for a role with autonomy to run operations and it ended up being a junior role with little room to own assignments.”

    3. Working in J-land*

      Also working in Japan, here. I was an English teacher through the JET Program for a couple years, then got hired by a local company. Unless you want to take a break in your career path, I wouldn’t recommend teaching. There are English teachers who aren’t native speakers, but some countries of origin/accents are discriminated against.
      As Mameshiba said you’ll need to have your visa sponsored, but companies looking for foreign skilled labor limit their search to those already within Japan. From my experience as well, N2 doesn’t make candidates appealing, it’s a bare minimum for non-teaching full time work.
      It’s really tough to break into a foreign country, but it doesn’t hurt to keep looking and applying, you may be a lucky one.

      1. Flow*

        Here’s the thing; I really don’t know if a career path is important to me or not. I’m always so anxious about being “on the right path” and “building up my career”, because I spent a year in a position that’s not necessarily my career path (Designer – graphic and web UI, and Illustrator). I’m also weighed down by my age if that makes sense? Maybe it’s just the anxiety talking but I always feel like “oh god I’m already xx age, is it too late to only have x years of experience in x career?”

        Anyways. Thank you for your input! I didn’t know that N2 is a bare minimum – I always thought that as long as you can speak Japanese well and have the certification, employers would prefer you over others. In any case I would still be interested in learning as I love the language. I’ll keep trying.

        1. Working in J-land*

          Not sure if you’re keeping up on the replies still, but thought I’d commiserate ahaha. I also have no clue what my career path is, but moving abroad can absolutely give you a fresh start.
          I worried about the bits of time I “wasted” in the past, but I’ve realized I was comparing myself to some “perfect” version of myself. Other people don’t see that unattainable person, so they can appreciate your accomplishments more clearly.

          N2 is a minimum, but honestly some industries/companies aren’t even aware of what the JLPT is. My company had no clue what “N2” meant, but I could back it up with good speaking skills. As a shorthand, I’d assume job listings that post “N2” really need N2 or above (bc they should know what that means), but other industries may have more leeway. There’s also a business Japanese certification test out there, looking up what is included in that should give you an idea of what you’d need to work in a Japanese company (which is different than what the JLPT tests!).

    4. DoomCarrot*

      How easy different countries are to move to depends a lot on your country of origin – because that determines what kind of visa you’ll need. For example, being an EU citizen or a Commonwealth citizen makes other countries in that set easier/more attractive.

      I’m currently working in my 5th country, but most of them have been ones where I didn’t need a specific visa. Some of my coworkers came on work visas, but have to ensure they don’t have an unemployment period in between contracts so their visa won’t expire.

      That said, there is another possibility that works in almost every country: being able to prove you have the means to sustain yourself without relying on a local job/social security. If you’re not independently wealthy, that could be a full-time remote job or generating a good income as a freelancer. Since from what you’ve said, you speak at least three languages and enjoy translating, maybe work in translation/localisation/testing that uses those could be done remotely?

      1. Flow*

        True, I’m not from EU or Commonwealth citizen, and there are some limitations to me in terms of privilege to move around, I suppose. Though, I still have other ways that I had yet to explore (and I will!)

        Yes, I’m aiming for a Japanese and English language certification in early 2020 and find freelance/remote works that can make use of those skills, as well as my existing ones (Design and Illustration).

        Thank you for your input!

    5. WellRed*

      I can’t address the questions but have a question for you? You sound like you have no clear focus. Why do you want to move overseas? Are you fantasizing a dramatic fresh start or something? And Canada and Japan are dramatically different in terms of everything. I’m so happy you resigned that awful job but please consider why you want to make such a drastic move with limited resources.

      1. Flow*

        No, honestly I don’t have a clear focus right now. I just want to get away from this country because I have some traumas (that I’m working on with my therapist right now) and I do want a fresh start/move on, though hopefully not an overly dramatic one LOL.

        They are very different countries, true. I want Japan because I’m already familiar with the country and language, and Canada because it’s possible to get into independently, compared to other countries, I suppose.

        1. BonnieVoyage*

          So for context, although I’ve never worked outside my own country part of my job is to assist people at my company with work visas, travel, relocation and so on. For the most part, when you are trying to move to another country to work that country will want to know why they need you in particular (ie what your valuable skills are) and exactly what it is that you intend to do. (This will of course vary depending on your nationality, the country in question and any agreements in place between the two!) Basically, most countries and particularly not large developed countries like Canada and Japan do not want people just turning up and hoping they will find something to do. If you can’t give a clear answer and back it up with some kind of evidence you are unlikely to be granted a work visa, and the process is usually time-consuming and expensive.

          If you don’t have a particular job in mind and are mostly seeking a fresh start, I would strongly suggest looking to see if any countries offer working holiday visas that you would be eligible for. If that’s not possible and if you have the means to do so, it may be preferable for you to simply travel for a set period (eg 3-6 months) and get a clearer idea of the type of work available in other countries, establish connections and so on.

          1. Flow*

            Thank you for the input! I am preparing my portfolio and resume, and thankfully my skills are listed in one of the Human Capital Stream in Canada, so I’ll try applying and focusing on its PR first, whilst studying Japanese as well to get the language certification.

    6. Buttons*

      I emigrated to Canada (from the US) almost 20 years ago, and it is not easy to do. If you do not have a sought after job skill, you simply won’t be able to. If you do not have a focus, if all you want to do is travel and see the world, then do that. If you know for sure where you want to go, and why, then I would apply to schools and gain a student visa, which often will allow you to work on campus. This will do a couple of things- it will gain you entry to the country legally, it will provide you with a way to work, and if you decide you want to stay in that country, it will be easier to transition from a student visa to a working visa.
      Good luck!

      1. Flow*

        Thank you for the input! Right now there are several ways to get into Canada, and my skills are actually in one of the Human Capital Priorities Stream! I was so surprised to see, as usually what’s listed are skills such as engineering, programming, and other data-based or manufacturing positions. I’m listing down all my options and how to do it, I think I might need that luck :)

        (Also I hope this comment appears in the reply, as my replies to WellRed and AcademiaNut failed to appear in my browser even though I’ve tried submitting twice!)

      1. Flow*

        Yes! I’ve tried calculating my score and I’m actually above the cut-off score – though I still have to look up other information too :)

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Canada participates in the International Experience program with a number of other countries (links in reply). The visa is good for 12 or 24 months, depending on your country of citizenship, and there are 3 categories that you can look at. If you’re between 19-35 you may be able to try this deal.

        1. Chris915NZ*

          If you are under 30 and a national of one of 45 countries (see link posted below), you could consider a working holiday visa in New Zealand? Conditions vary by scheme, but if you qualify it’s a low bar way of getting an open work visa and trying another labour market out.

  10. Argye*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago about some misgivings I had about an interview where it was unclear what costs the University interviewing me was going to cover. I am happy to say that they covered everything. It turns out that they were using a Graduate Assistant to do their scheduling, and he was largely clueless. (He managed to do some confusing thing where all meetings were scheduled in Outlook in Pacific Time. None of us are in Pacific Time. It was odd.) When I interacted with the actual support staff, they were clear, specific, and completely organized and business-like. It went far, far better than I was afraid. I got along well with my potential supervisor (Assistant Dean; it’s a faculty/Program Directorship), and my potential peers (other Program Directors).
    I have a video interview scheduled for January with the Dean – he was out of town while I was there. I am cautiously optimistic. Depending on salary, I’d take this job if offered.

    I’ve had two other video interviews since, and have one more scheduled for January. Things are moving, thank goodness.

    2. Ama*

      Ah, good, I remember reading that post in passing and thinking it sounded like the person communicating with you maybe didn’t know what they were doing (I worked in university admin for many years and I scheduled many an interview for out of town faculty and grad student candidates).

      Good luck, I hope all goes well.

  11. Aggretsuko*

    This week at my job: a guy screamed at my coworker so hard he gave himself a seizure. It was literally declared the worst day ever at this job, which is really saying something.

    I don’t really have a question, I’m just so sick of stressed out, screaming, crying clientele (think “DMV” sort of job where you usually don’t come here unless you’re unhappy) who threaten us and everyone else. Things have gotten straight up psychotic in the last four years and we’re all exhausted and I don’t know if there’s anything anyone can do to make it less horrible.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I realize it’s unethical to drug people without consent, but also I feel like workplaces like that should have some sort of human Feliway things you stick in the vents to emit calming pheromones and help people chill out.

      1. JaneB*

        Oh I would love human feliway! I’d plug it in in my office for the week before every coursework deadline or exam, student stress is reaching insane levels and it’s really difficult…

      3. Possibly Enough Detail to be Identified?*

        Just put a big sign up on the door “Cherry Plum is part of the air conditioning”

        (*evil laugh*)

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        It would have to be better than the mall-store fake Christmas stench that is wafting through the office this week. I’m probably going to give up and take sick time, even though I was hoarding those last few hours to roll into next calendar year.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          You could get a little air purifier by your desk. I am so happy to have one. I am really sensitive to fragrances. It doesn’t help if I walk by someone with perfume, but at least my space is a haven.

          1. Past my last straw*

            I might just try that, although I’m near enough to a main hallway that everyone & their perfume walks by at some point in the week. Thanks.

      5. Aggretsuko*

        I have fantasies about this. Not exactly “Miranda” in Firefly, but something…

        I actually brought some hippie product called “Negaside” or something that I used to spray around my toxic old office when everyone else was out. I wish I could use it at the front counter here, but there’s always someone out there and I’d have to explain what I’m doing.

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          Long ago I worked with someone who kept a bottle of spray cleaner labeled Jerk-B-Gone and would clean her phone with it after every call with a cranky customer. No hippie magic promises, just catharsis.

      6. Jean (just Jean)*

        Sounds great in theory but in practice please remember the people who are physically sensitive to fragrances.
        It’s not much fun getting a full-blown asthma attack. I can continue breathing in the presence of Industrial Smells but boy do I notice them. (Thinking of you, random commuter who must have used two full bottles of … something… yesterday morning.) Getting out of Dodge is probably the best solution to being around such unhinged colleagues. Good wishes for doing that.

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          I have very intense allergies to fragrances! Feliway is a calming pheromone product for cats, not a scented thing. And it doesn’t exist for humans. I’m just wishing it did. :)

        2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          Feliway specifically is the maternal-bonding pheromone that mother cats emit to their kittens. When we plugged in a Feliway diffuser in my house, my cat curled up under the power outlet purring at her new “mom.”

          It was adorable.

      7. thelettermegan*

        You know, there may be something to that – if the nature of the office is that people come in angry, can you work with the space to make it more calming? Neutral colors, a ‘clean’ smell (like subtle lavender or whatever ‘fresh linen’ is) , one of the couches that sucks people into the cushions so they can’t escape, that might at least slow people down.

      8. Lora*

        If this was a thing, we would have already invented it and installed it in several Big Pharma workplaces just for our own sanity. Also how you know all those supplements that are supposed to make your brain work better, don’t actually do anything: Big Pharma would have happily bribed Sodexo to put it in the cafeteria food, but unfortunately all we got was Motivational Posters like everyone else.

        In real life it would be more of a Serenity / Miranda type of thing, where it mostly works for a lot of people who have varying reactions to the doses, and a small % turn into Reavers. Pharmacology is weird.

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          Yep. If it existed, it would be pumped throughout our campus (can you imagine the FDA inspection? LOL!)

          IRL, Feliway works for some cats, doesn’t work for others, and makes a small percentage (even more) aggressive. I had an aggressive cat and Feliway made her completely insane with rage (not an exaggeration – she was a howling, shrieking, biting, clawing fiend. Thank goodness for powerful antibiotics!), so I expect human Feliway would be the same.

          1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

            Oh gosh, poor kitty and poor you!

            I live in Brooklyn and our local “Feliway for humans” is the secondhand pot smoke we get when the neighbors walk under our windows. Firsthand it has a similar range of effects, which is why we only experience it secondhand, and try to minimize that…

      9. Chronic Overthinker*

        I joke that I need to sage my office once a month (burning dried white sage leaves as incense) but I’m afraid I would set off the fire alarm. XD I definitely want to make a white sage room spray. People seriously need to chill out and I need to clear out all the negative energy in the office!

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      ODL. BTW, the screamer gave himself a seizure, yes? Not the co-worker trying to avoid being screamed at?

        1. OhNo*

          Goodness, I didn’t even know that was possible.

          I’m not going to lie, your job sounds so stressful it would probably send me screaming for the hills. At least it sounds like you and your coworkers are in it together and can support each other, I hope?

          1. JustaTech*

            I had a boss (years before I worked for him) who got into such a screaming fight that he had a massive heart attack right there in the hall. He lived, and everyone who knew him said he “chilled way out” afterwards, which is kind of terrifying because I would never have used the word “chill” to describe that boss!

    3. Kuirky*

      Ha, I work at my state’s human services office so I know how you feel re: angry, upset clients constantly.

  12. Caroline*

    Any advice for doing an interview for a competitive on campus job at my university? There are three rounds of interviews, and I’m pretty concerned about making it past even the first round. Considering we’re all students with similar experiences, how can I shine in the interview? I really want the job, and I think I’d be a great fit.

    1. 867-5309*

      What is the position? Is it in academia or something else, like the public-facing public relations department?

    2. Carson*

      you probably already know this but I’d say practicing OUTLOUD with friends/mentor/counselor at the school. Have specific, real world examples. Good luck! I’m in the second round for a promotional at my uni, first round was written, second a panel.

    3. Elly*

      I’m a staff member in a university, working for a department that hires a lot of student workers (although I’ve so far avoided having to interview any of them), and here are the things that get brought up a LOT:

      – bring your materials with you – you wouldn’t believe how many people show up without a copy of their CV / cover letter / application, and can’t cope with question 1, which is always “can you walk us through your CV?”

      – If you are put somewhere to wait for the interviewer, that is also part of the interview! Be polite and friendly with anyone you meet. We often put people waiting into the office (even for fairly senior roles!) and the team are asked afterwards whether there is anyone they think should be excluded from consideration.

      – Think in advance about the sort of competenecies the role requires, and what examples from your past work and study you can use. Write these down, and take notes in if you need to! A lot of our questions for student workers and low level staff are things like “this role requires team work. Can you tell us about a time you worked well as part of a team?” A surprising number of people, even those with years of experience, will answer with something along the lines of “well, I’ve worked in lots of teams, and I’m really a team player.” We are looking for someone to say something like “during my time working at a summer camp, we had a list of tasks that had to be completed each day. Our team would take five minutes after breakfast each day to distribute the workload, and check in with each other at lunch to make sure everyone was coping.”

      – Try not to use too many examples from university. We find that students with relatively full work experience sections still provide lots of examples from their time studying, possibly on the basis that they don’t think their time working in a shop is relevant – really we would prefer to hear about that!

      – Stop talking! A lot of nervous people keep rambling to fill the silence. Give an answer and then stop. The panel may need to take some time to scrawl down their notes, or process what you’ve said – them not talking doesn’t mean they want you to keep doing so!

      – Be confident, but not overly so. People want to hire someone they can work with, and if you are too arsy, or too meek, they are likely to worry about what you will be like in the office. We find that women in particular are prone to not talking themselves up enough.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        So true on the confidence bullet. I’ve been told more than once that my confidence (as a woman) is the reason I got the job. Not in a braggy way, but I know what my strengths and weaknesses are, and am candid about both.

        The advice I’ve heard that works for me is to pretend you’re describing your best friend.

      2. Library Squad*

        Two things from high school that are worth sharing:
        Ms. Lynn’s Rule: Never be afraid to say “I don’t know”.
        Miss Westwood’s Corollary: “I don’t know” is a great sentence, best followed by “yet.”
        Together, they make a good fallback when you’re stumped. “That’s an interesting question. I haven’t actually fed koalas myself, but I know how to look up & learn the procedures.” Then segue into a brief example of a time where you taught yourself to do a required task from an SOP document, FAQ webpage, or book. Bonus if you demonstrate an understanding of the university’s available resources. (With a caveat that if you’re going to be hired after graduation as a full-time employee, you proably will have different access than if you’re hired as a student worker.)

      3. Senor Montoya*

        Excellent list. I’d add:
        1. Learn about the department/program. Academic institutions have websites.
        Familiarize yourself. Review the info on the website against the job description.
        2. Prepare questions to ask the committee. I’m super unimpressed when candidates have no questions or say something like, You’ve already answered all my questions. It’s academia, we expect questions!
        3. If you have multiple interviews for the same position (for instance, the search committee, professors in the department, the hiring office), you can ask the same questions! You don’t need all unique questions for each of these. In fact, asking the same question can get you valuable info — are the answers consistent? what’s the perspective of the person answering? etc.

      4. OhNo*

        Very much agreed on your point about confidence.

        Also this is more general professional advice, but don’t badmouth anyone associated with the university, even the slightest bit. Being involved with hiring student workers in my current job, gotta say that nothing knocks a student out of the running faster than expressing a negative attitude about one of the other departments. We have to work with them regardless of personal feelings or experience, so we look hard for evidence that student workers can be professional.

        As an example: had someone in the last round of hiring who, when asked why they were interested in the position, complained about how bad their financial aid package was and how their academic department didn’t pay enough to make the TA salaries worth the time. While I agreed in principle that both departments drop the ball regularly on student support, the fact that we work closely with both meant this student was immediately dropped off the list for a callback.

        In that same vein, anything you can do to demonstrate your understanding of professional norms will help a lot. Be polite and friendly, like Elly says. Send thank-you notes. Dress professionally. It seems super easy, but it’s amazing how many students don’t bother because it’s “just” a student worker job.

    4. Veronica Mars*

      So many people think that the key to ‘standing out’ is to be really pushy and aggressive about explaining All The Reasons You’re Special.
      But honestly? What most people care about, if the qualifications are roughly similar, is that you’re a nice/normal person they wouldn’t mind spending time with. So obviously it’s an interview, and you’ll need to be ready to talk to your strengths and weaknesses. But in the before/after pleasantry portion, focus on being *interested* not *interesting* and in general, squash all urges to show ‘gumption’.

    5. Alianora*

      I work at a university, but this tip isn’t specific to that: Make sure to actually answer the questions that your interviewers ask. A surprising number of the people I’ve interviewed tend to ramble and go off-topic, and then I have to re-ask the question again. If I say “tell me about a time,” I’m looking for specific examples (and if you don’t have one, say so.) If I ask, “What did you like about your last job?” I really want to know what your opinion was, not just a list of your job duties.

      1. Alianora*

        Also, a pet peeve of mine is when interviewees suck up to the admins (I’m an admin, often part of an interview panel for non-administrative staff). It’s transparently a tactic, and I find it condescending. Just treat us like normal people, no need to gush about how amazing all admins everywhere at every company are.

    6. LunaLena*

      Current staff member at a university here. I’d recommend preparing examples of how being a student will be beneficial to the role, and also be ready to explain why working at the university in particular is appealing to you. My co-worker was hired to our department right after he graduated, and I was not the hiring authority, but was on the search committee that picked him. What put him at the top of my candidate list (apart from his resume and cover letter) was that he demonstrated a lot knowledge of how the university worked (he had been a student employee in a relevant department, so that was helpful), was clear that he understood this was an entry-level position and he wanted to learn, and that the work was something he was interested in and fit well into his overall master career plan. Nothing put me off a candidate more quickly than those who obviously wanted to take the role and mold it to their own personal interests, rather than embracing the duties that were assigned to it. For example, one candidate was clearly interested only in the teapot-making aspect of the position, when the actual role was assembling fancy dinner sets and teapots would only be made if specially requested.

      If your university’s three rounds are like the ones at mine, the first round will be dependent entirely on your resume and cover letter. Make sure you are very clear about how you fit all the minimum and preferably the preferred qualifications, and you’ll most likely make it to the second round. The second round is a phone interview, so be prepared to talk about yourself and try to think of examples of things you’ve done/know that will be relevant to the position. The third round is an in-person interview, and will be an extension of the phone interviews. If you have examples of work you can bring that are relevant, bring them! It’s always better to bring extra cover letters, resumes, and portfolio pieces and not need them, than to not bring them and risk looking unprepared.

      Good luck!

      1. LunaLena*

        Oh, one more thing: don’t name-drop unless it’s relevant. If the role you are applying for works closely with Fergus in the Food Services and you have previously worked with him, then by all means mention it. But I’ve had candidates say things like “I’ve met University President at Event, and he’s great” and it’s very off-putting when the role has nothing to do with University President, and it just comes off as arrogant and clueless about what the role will really entail.

  13. Stephen!*

    I had an interview earlier this week and it did not go as well as I’d hoped. And follow up/thank you notes/ whatever you want to call them are still really hard for me to write. It’s like the entire conversation flops out if my head once the interview is over!

        1. Fikly*

          You may not need to do both at the same time, or take notes the entire time, depending on how your memory is triggered. I have naturally occurring thoughts during an interview that I might want to bring up this topic later, etc, and I’ll just jot down a few words “topic + f/u” and that’s enough for me.

    2. Patty Whack*

      This may not fit your experience but I once left a pretty dysfunctional interview and couldn’t bring myself to write thank you notes. A colleague/mentor I hold in high regard told me, “Don’t force yourself to write a thank you if you’re not thankful.” I thought post-interview thank yous were mandatory regardless since you took up someone’s time. But now it’s kind of a gut check for me.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Oh, the last job interview I went on, I realized I did NOT want that job and thus didn’t write one!

      2. Senor Montoya*

        Mmm, not really good advice. If nothing else, those people know other people in the field. For sure they know others at that employer. Anyone not gracious enough to send even a minimal thank you = I’m thinking they don’t know professional norms or they aren’t organized/timely. I’ll probably remember you, at least for awhile.

        Also, the interview may not have gone as poorly as you think. Or it did go poorly, but they’re not good at seeing that and so it won’t hurt you as much as you think.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        True, you don’t HAVE to.
        But I think I’d at least try to send a very short or generic one thanking them for their time and opportunity to learn more about the position at a minimum.

        It won’t make you stand out, but it won’t hurt you either.

    3. Veronica Mars*

      I think the pressure is that so many people want to write The Note That Covers All The Things You Wish Youd Said But Didnt.

      No note is going to “fix” a bad interview, not even a “perfect” one. But a short, simple note is much more powerful in its own way. You can pick maybe one thing you’d like to reiterate or refine, but otherwise give yourself a break from writing The Perfect Note and focus on a good note with a decent turn-around-time instead.

    4. Kiwiii*

      So, while an ideal thank you note should touch on something you talked about or follow up on a piece of the conversation, a thank you note that is just “Thank you for taking the time to interview me. I enjoyed meeting (you/the panel) and getting to learn a little more about the job. I’d like to reiterate my interest in the job; I look forward to hearing from you.” (obviously, slightly better phrased) is better than nothing.

    5. Other Secret Names Which You May Not Know Yet*

      If it cheers you up at all, this UK murderino is sending you positive vibes for the job hunt. SSDGM!

  14. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    The person currently in charge of my ongoing volunteer gig is stepping down, and I will gladly throw them a retirement party. We were friends until we worked together and now I have lost all respect for them, which makes me really sad. They’re just so bad at being in charge, but they volunteer to be in charge because they don’t trust anyone else to do it right. Inevitably this has burned them out, and I’m sorry they’re burned out but so glad they’re making space for someone else to step up.

    Today they shared their screen in a Zoom meeting to pull up a file out of their email, and I saw that they have over 3000 unread messages—not just messages in their inbox, which I know some people never clear out, but messages they’ve never looked at. It’s one thing to know that emailing them has about an 85% chance of shouting into a well and another to see a number on it.

    I have no idea who will step up as leader—not me, that’s for sure—but whoever it is will at least have a different set of foibles and flaws, and at this point that’s good enough for me.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Glad they are stepping down but re the unread emails, I have 1,000s of unread ones too. I clear my work inbox but not my personal one. I skim over all the crap and don’t open most of them unless I am expecting them or can see from the preview that I need to read it. So they sit there being counted as unread.

      1. Stephanie*

        I’m the same way. I currently have over 1000 unread emails in my personal account. They’re all random crap. I keep my work inbox cleaned up, though.

        1. Buttons*

          You’re monsters, both of you!! ;) LOL! I am just teasing, everyone has whatever works for them.

          It drives me nuts to see any unread messages in my boxes.
          One of my 2019 goals was to take the time to block and/or unsubscribe to every single junk email I get (both work and personal), as soon as I am in my email. I have kept to it all year. It has made a world of difference in managing my emails.

          1. Zippy*

            Good for you, I’ve done a little of that as I have a few different email accounts and it’s so nice to have any space in regards to email :)

      2. Bree*

        I just checked and I have 5,400 unread e-mails in my personal inbox – it is mostly newsletters, advertising, etc. I read anything from an actual person!

        My work inbox is entirely read, organized, archived.

      3. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Ah, this wasn’t their personal account but the organization-specific one. My personal inbox has ~600 unread emails at the moment and has been worse. But my work and volunteer org inboxes are clean.

        This is also someone who has literally said “Oh yeah, I’m bad with email, text me if it’s important” and “I assume that if I’m only cc’d on something, someone else is handling it and I don’t have to care” like that’s a reasonable strategy for someone heading up an organization with dozens of volunteers.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Obviously I can’t know if this person is failing to reply to critical emails — I’ve seen that happen. But it’s not automatically a horrible thing to have unread emails.
      I know a very effective manager who sets critical emails back to “unread” to prioritize them over other emails also flagged for follow-up.
      I am guilty of having 856 unread messages at the moment:
      -I automatically redirect automated updates from our online project-management notification systems. I read them online, but I retain the email notifications until a project is fully released, because it’s useful to have those updates searchable in MSOutlook.
      -Some of the group messages I’m sent are re-emailed until everyone on the list has completed their tasks… and that can be months of extra emails because one department can’t approve until the government does.
      -A non-work reason is that I signed up for email announcements from my daughter’s school at my work email as well as my home email because I want to see any early dismissal reminders, weather alerts, etc., and I don’t check my home email at work.

    3. Princess Scrivener*

      oh my Lawd, all those unread emails make my stomach hurt; here’s to post-stepping down day for improving your work environment!

    4. Senor Montoya*

      Eh, I have a LOT of unread email. I can see from the header whether or not it’s something I need to read. For instance, gmail appointments (I just accept/decline in my calendar), bouncebacks, spam, etc. It’s a waste of my time to open those and it’s a waste of my time to go thru and delete them, too.

      Unless you’ve gone through the email and seen lots of emails from your shop that should have been opened and that you know were never responded to with an email OR some other form of communication (walked down the hall to talk to you, picked up the phone, etc), you cannot make a fair judgment. Let it go.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        I certainly haven’t gone through their email, but over the past two years I have had countless emails I’ve sent them go unread and ignored, including important ones. So as I said, this is just putting a number on what I already know.

  15. Thank you notes*

    Any tips for writing thank you notes for former lecturers? I was involved in a project from senior year until a year after graduation. The project was finally finished last month, and I’m writing a note for each of my supervisors.

    So far my outline is like this:
    1. Thank you in general for the guidance
    2. Mention one thing they did that meant a lot to me
    3. Say that they have inspired me to pursue this field more seriously

    Any input on content, wording, etc is welcome! I have a tendency to be too effusive, so tips on that would be very appreciated.

    1. Carson*

      This sounds great! I think they’ll be touched to get a note. I like the specific example thing for #2.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Agreed. Don’t over-think it. As long as you’re sincere and have a specific example as Carson says, you’re fine. Last month a graduate I’d worked with when she was a student told me that one simple thing I said in an advising conversation had remained with her and inspired her to create her own professional path, and to stick with it even when it was difficult. I’ve been riding that wave for two months.

        TL;DR: Your lecturers will be thrilled to hear that they mattered and that you consider them mentors.

    2. OhNo*

      I think that sounds lovely. If you have a few to write and a tendency to be effusive, though, I’d suggest setting yourself a sentence limit. It always helps me to know that I only have 3 or 4 sentences to get my point across, so it may help you too!

  16. LegallyBrunette*

    My first name is a double name styled with a space and two capital letters, like Mary Sue. This is my legal name and, more importantly, the name I strongly prefer to be called (I’ve never been a Mary). It’s not uncommon for people to call me just Mary and/or assume that Sue is a middle name. In regular non-work life, I sometimes correct people and sometimes don’t – it’s generally easier to just let a barista to write Mary on my cup, for example. I started using a fake initial (Mary Sue J. Doe) on my resume and email signature with the hope that it will make my first name clearer. In professional settings, what’s the best way to politely correct people without making it awkward? It’s a slightly different situation than people getting a completely wrong name (Elaine being called Suzy), because they’ve sort of called me part of the right name.

    I’ve asked a similar question on a previous open thread in case this seems familiar. I got a lot of well-intentioned suggestions to change my name in some way (add a hyphen, go by just part of my name) but I strongly prefer my actual name as it is and am not open to using a first name other than my actual first name. I am primarily asking for help with how to gracefully correct people during job interviews, networking, etc.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “Oh, it’s Mary Sue, not Mary. I’d love to learn more about the benefits you’re offering—can you give me a rundown?” With a smile.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Thanks! I’ve been through about a billion iterations of “Oh, it’s ‘they’, not ‘she’. Did you get a chance to revise those TPS reports?” and figured the skills would probably translate.

          1. Auntie Social*

            And drop the space between the names. Mary Sue becomes MarySue. There’s no misunderstanding that. My friend Mary Anne had to become MaryAnne.

      2. Mameshiba*

        I don’t think it’s gendered or tone-deaf, it’s just that sometimes people do include their middle name but don’t expect you to use it. Think “Jose Maria” but goes by “Jose”.

        I would just keep correcting them politely like Director Alpaca suggests–briefly, then diverting back to the topic at hand. If you see a pattern of mistakes then call it out more broadly (“Just so you know, Mary Sue is actually my full first name, so please don’t forget the Sue! Thanks.”)

        Anyone who repeatedly mistakes your name is giving you information about them. I can’t imagine anything more mortifying than getting someone’s name wrong over and over. If they are too dumb or rude to feel shame, then that’s not on you–I wouldn’t worry about trying to find the perfect way to get through to someone like that.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Or some folks go by one name or two, either way. My old boss had a Jose Maria sort of name that she would sometimes use the middle name on just so nobody mistook her for a dude, but since we knew her, we mostly just went with the first name.

          I know you said you didn’t want to change it, but getting rid of the space and being MarySue seems like it would get the point across to anyone who sees it, at least.

      3. Amy*

        This. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “actually, I go by Mary Sue.” Its no different than correcting the pronunciation of an unusual name. Be los key, kind, and direct, and move on.

    2. Jimming*

      I don’t have any advice, just sympathy. I recently wrote to Alison about my manager spelling my name wrong and I don’t know how to correct it. I’m hoping she’ll respond eventually!

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I get people spelling and/or pronouncing my name wrong all the time. I’ve never found a way to deal with it that’s not awkward and actually works.

        Depending on your level of needed formality, you could try just signing things like emails with Mary Sue and no last name, to help clue people in that that’s what you go by. That’s pretty subtle, though, and given how many people misspell my name when writing back to me in emails I signed with my correctly-spelled name I doubt it would solve everything.

        The one nice thing that’s happened to me recently is that I’ve noticed that when I spend time in spaces where many of us will correct pronouns in conversations about people not in the conversation (“oh, Wakeen uses they/them pronouns. I agree that they’re doing a great job at [thing we were discussing].”), many of those same people will now take it upon themselves to help correct people as to how to say my name when they’re the one in a conversation with someone mispronouncing it (it’s very unusual that I’d break into a conversation about me but not to me to correct a name pronunciation issue – it would have to be “about to announce me on stage” level of problem before I’d bother). At least now we’re all getting to say a wider variety of gentle corrections rather than just the “regular” one each of us gets to say over and over again…

        1. Amy Sly*

          Re: Spelling names. I divide the world into people who need to say my last name and people who need to spell it. If you need to say it, it’s “Sly.” If you need to spell it, it’s Sierra Charlie Hotel Lima Echo Yankee. I find it’s easier to not even bother getting them to say it right.

        2. Elenna*

          If I saw an email signed with “Mary Sue” and no last name, I’d assume “Sue” was the last name, which is basically the opposite of what LegallyBrunette wants… I guess it might work in an environment where 100% of people sign emails with only their first name, idk.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I knew a woman whose full name was something like Mary Lynn, and people always thought she had a double first name. “Mary Lynn, what’s your last name?” “Um. Lynn.”

          2. Arjay*

            I’d leave “Mary Sue Doe” in the email signature with the other contact info, but add a complimentary close of “Regards, Mary Sue” to the email above it.

        3. Cog in the Machine*

          I have a not too common first name with a varient spelling and a very common last name. I’ve had to correct the spelling of my first name my entire life, including on emails where my name is on the email address. Truthfully, I’ve more or less given up, because it seems like some people do it deliberately. I do have to spell out my last name too, but that probably has more to do with me not enunciating enough on the phone.

    3. Batgirl*

      Put your preferred handle above your email signature in the same text as your email (use a font for the email sig).

      Hi Person.
      Blah blah blah.
      Thanks,
      Mary Sue.

      Mary Sue J. Doe
      Superhero
      Marvel.

      Also try referring to your name out loud a bit more just to give it an airing. If I were to see two names like that I’d probably err on the side of using one – but I’d be listening out for signposts.
      Something like “so he said to me ‘Mary Sue, I didn’t mean today’….”
      Or “I’m the best Mary Sue in the company and that’s not just because I’m the only Mary Sue in the company”

      You’re still going to get Mary, if not Mare or M without correcting them. People will shorten down to the nub until stopped.

      1. Delta Delta*

        I want to send an email today where the whole text is “blah blah blah.” Most emails I send feel like that’s all I’m saying anyway.

      2. Alianora*

        Good advice. I always look at someone’s email sign-offs to see what they prefer to be called.

        Piggybacking on this – if you haven’t already, set your email to display “Mary Sue” as your name. I’ve noticed that Outlook sometimes removes whatever it reads as the “middle name.”

      3. MoopySwarpet*

        I was going to suggest this. We have a client contact that works at a place where there is a very strict first name last name email structure and contact information. His email looked like this:

        From: Ethan Hawke (ethan.hawke@bigco.com)

        Hi Moopy,

        When the teapots prototypes are ready, please let me know so I can coordinate a time to pick them up.

        Best Regards,

        Sam

        Ethan Sam Hawke
        Teapot Runner
        Big Co Inc

        That one was probably the most confusing one I’ve seen, but I frequently get emails from “Samuel Nobody” signed “Sam” with the signature block including their formal name and information.

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          This is what I’ve usually seen except that people often put their preferred name in quotes in the formal signature line.

          Ethan “Sam” Hawke

          If you want to be more memorable and your company allows it, you could be a little funny:
          Ethan “Call me Sam” Hawke
          or Ethan “Sam I Am” Hawke

          so for the OP
          blah blah blah
          Cordially,
          Mary Sue (rhymes with blue) Johnson

    4. Laure001*

      I would say something like, “Oh, no, Mary is the one in accounting – the one who is giving the conference right now – my boss who mailed you about xx – I am actually Mary Sue.” Obviously it works better if there is an actual Mary around.

    5. Katherine Vigneras*

      It may be helpful to enlist others in spreading the word, too. I had a very Southern boss with a double name and I would simply say, sweetly and as though I was telling them the secret to the universe, “oh, just so you know, it’s actually Sarah Ruth… one of those Southern double names.”

    6. Veronica Mars*

      Most people genuinely want to call you by the right name, and are likely stressed out not knowing what that is. Which leads to inevitably guessing wrong. For example, I often get super stressed over whether to call someone “Mike” or “Michael” and always default to Michael only to get a “Only my mom calls me that.”

      Anyway, the best root is to assume they have the best intentions but are potentially quite bad at names, and give a friendly and simple correction as often as needed until it sinks in. “Hey Mary, did you get the TPS Report?” “Oh, actually its Mary Sue, and yes, I did.”

      The trick is to keep a ‘smile’ in your voice so that you don’t come across as offended, because then they’ll feel bad, and you don’t really need or want their emotions, just for them to use the right name.

    7. College Career Counselor*

      I agree with the folks below who say correct them kindly and quickly in the moment “actually, I go by….” For more routine efforts, I can tell you about a colleague who had a double first name. She emphasized it by writing “MarySue” in her signature file and signing “MarySue” to signify that she should be addressed by both names. Did that lead to people emailing her as “MarySue” instead of “Mary Sue”? Yes, but it was worth it for her.

    8. Mainely Professional*

      Correcting people about your name should never feel awkward. Be confident and correct them. There many Nicholases who are not “Nick” and Katherines who are not “Kathy.”

      “My whole first name is ‘Mary Sue’ and that’s what I go by, not ‘Mary.'”
      “Actually, I go by ‘Mary Sue.’ It’s not for shortening.”

      Rinse, repeat, do not say “No big deal” when people apologize, or react apologetically yourself. Everyone has had the experience of being corrected about a new acquaintance’s name. “It’s ‘Christopher,’ actually.”

      You can/should count yourself lucky if your double barrel first name is as common or easy to explain as “Mary Sue.” I knew a woman named “Mary Bacon.” Southern naming conventions are real and do not just apply to boys.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I had an elderly neighbor who used to use a common-but-not-his nickname for my husband “Albert”. I told her that if she needed help, she could call for “Albert” or “Al” — when he hears “Bert”, he tunes it out because they’re looking for his father.
      That doesn’t work in an interview, but it would be useful after you’re hired.
      Also, we have an almost common last name, but with a variant spelling/pronunciation. When my fatherinlaw was job-hunting, he changed his voicemail message to the common pronunciation. Why? “Because I want to be as easy as possible. If they hire me, then it’s worth teaching them how I say it.” (He had a relatively short job search too.)

    10. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’ve got a name that can be shortened about 16 different ways, so I’ve had a version of this for most of my life as well. I’ve found that there’s really not one single way to correct someone without them feeling some kind of negative about it, so you can’t really make that your metric. The best thing is just to be matter of fact and vaguely cheerful about it. “Oh, it’s Peggy, not Meg,” with a small smile and a quick subject change tends to come off as more informative and less accusatory.

      Also, as a person from a southern family with multiple Aunt Marys, half of whom are double-barreled names, I send you all my sympathy!

    11. Shiny*

      I’m having a similar but different issue in my new job. I use a name that is a variation/nickname of my legal name everywhere, including my resume, when applying to jobs, etc. Both my boss and I flagged this for HR and IT before I started to try to get me an email, etc. with the right name. That didn’t happen. So now I’m having to correct people who are being incorrectly reinforced by my full legal name showing up in my email, when I edit documents, etc. It’s frustrating. My email will likely be changed, but not the display name, as HR can only use legal names. We work with people from all over the world, and for many of them my used name doesn’t naturally flow from my legal name, so I’m apparently looking at years of correcting people kindly.

    12. Senor Montoya*

      Please do not put a fake initial on your resume. It’s not going to match your other application materials, right?

      Please. Be accurate with all of your materials. Don’t make the search committee go, Whut?

    13. Aphrodite*

      I’d start using it, even though it’s two words, as one word: MarySue. That won’t help with verbal communications but it will get the word out. Of course, you’d go back to two words in any official documents like a passport, driver’s license, HR documentation, and so on.

    14. TiffanyAching*

      This is my exact situation — double name with a space and two capital letters — and if it’s a time when I actually care about them getting my name right, I usually use some variation of “Oh, actually I go by Mary Sue!” + quick pause, because many people apologize and I don’t want to be talking when they do, + “So, about that Work Topic…”

      If it’s not an interviewing situation, you can also sometimes deputize coworkers to help with this (or they’ll take it on themselves). My boss and one coworker in particular hate when I’m called “Mary” rather than “Mary Sue,” and will avidly correct anyone who gets it wrong, saving me the awkwardness.

      1. TiffanyAching*

        Another thought, and something that helps me get over the “well they got it partly right…” self-weirdness: Mary isn’t your name. Your name is Mary Sue. So if someone calls you Mary, they *are* using the completely wrong name. I think of it as if someone got my first name wrong but used the correct last name. If my name is Mary Sue Booth, and someone calls me Marie Booth, that’s just as wrong as if they called me Mary Sue Boat. Just some mental gymnastics that I personally use.

    15. NotAnotherManager!*

      My legal first name has a hyphen in it, and it doesn’t help. My name is also rather long, so people get lazy and only use the first one by default. Some people comment on my name (it’s unusual) or ask what I prefer to be called, but most people default to the first part only.

      Personally, I don’t feel that strongly about it (any more), and I’m at a point where so many people call me so many different things that my ears are attuned to whomever is talking to me. If my mom uses only the first part of my name, she’s talking to the relative after whom I’m named. If some random person uses only the second part of my name, I’d honestly not know they were talking to me.

      But, if I did feel strongly about it, I’d just cheerfully correct people. “Oh, actually, it’s Anne Jacinda.” and, if it’s someone I’m friendly with, I might give them the backstory that Anne is my favorite aunt and the Jacinda is how my family differentiates me from her.

    16. Triumphant Fox*

      My mother is a Mary Sue and we cannot imagine calling her Mary. It’s like I don’t even hear that as part of her name. She sometimes goes by the initials (like MS in this context…though that would be an odd one), but Mary is just…not her name. It’s fine to say, “Oh it’s actually Mary Sue, I don’t even realize people are talking to me when it’s just Mary,” if you’ve already mentioned it and it hasn’t clicked.

      It’s different if it’s a client or grand grand boss and you’ve tried and failed, but with colleagues there is really no excuse.

    17. Database Developer Dude*

      I don’t have any advice for you on how to get people to recognize your full first name, Mary Sue….

      I’m Jay David, and go by J.D., and people will still call me Jay. I had one individual who was actually offended that I asked that he call me J.D. I’m not sure how to respond to that.

      1. Kat in VA*

        My husband has the exact opposite issue. His name is Jay, and many people, upon being introduced, will then start referring to him as “Jason”.

        Jay is not that uncommon of a name…

    18. emmelemm*

      For what it’s worth, this is not unreasonable. My mother-in-law’s name is Mary Ellen and she gets annoyed if people write it Maryellen, which they frequently do. It’s OK to want your name to be YOUR name.

  17. exhausted to the core of my being*

    Mental health worker here trying to figure out how — or if I even should — propose significant changes to my job to my boss, request to review the state of things in a month, and then evaluate my fit for the position. I know it’s a terrible idea to “threaten to leave”, but I don’t know what else to do besides this or quit. Background on my job: I am the sole clinician for a large caseload of folks experiencing serious mental illness in a homeless shelter environment. I am supposed to have a supervisor with whom I share responsibilities, but have not had one for the last 5 months. I had a separate 1 month stint without a supervisor earlier in the year, too. Additionally, historically there was a third person on this team with the same title as me, but that position was eliminated before I started. The work environment is challenging — exposure to bed bugs and other pests, second hand smoke & illicit substances, sexual harassment, generally feeling unsafe and unsupported because I primarily work alone and have little clinical supervision. I am constantly behind in paperwork because 1. There is too much work to do for one person, 2. I am burnt out and have no PTO due to illness zapping it all up earlier in the year, and 3. Indefinitely working like this is hopeless and brings me to tears. I know the problems are institutional and not my fault — the work environment should be safer and they should pay better. At the same time, I feel like I just must not be trying hard enough & like I /can’t/ leave — the people I work with are resilient, but if I leave without a replacement, they will suffer. They’ve been looking to hire for months and have interviewed, but nobody wants to work here. The organization is well respected generally and other teams do not have this hard a time filling positions.

    I am considering presenting my boss with proposed changes to make my job more manageable — schedule, workflow, limiting how much driving and errands I am doing, one work from home day, etc. — and requesting to meet again in 4-6 weeks to assess the agreed upon changes and my fit for the role. I also am tempted to just announce my resignation affective in 4 weeks and call it. I am 90% sure this work cannot get better and for my health I must leave, but I want to give it a last honest shot. I also know that for the sake of having any chance at collecting unemployment I should document that I raised my concerns but they ultimately were not successfully addressed, giving me no option but to resign for my health and safety, right? Someo correct me if I’m wrong! I even started going to therapy to deal with the stress & how it’s worsened/regressed my PTSD recovery.

    My job is miserable. I rely on it for health insurance and care about the work, but I know I can’t go on like this either.

    Secondly — any one in social work/adjacent fields with recommendations for “easier” areas of work as far as work-life balance, low paperwork, and pay go? I don’t have an MSW.

    1. Late to the game*

      I worked as a home visitor for quite a while, and had the same issues. I’m curious- do you have another master’s level clinical degree (professional counselor? mental health masters?) because the idea you don’t have a clinical supervisor literally gives me chills. reflective supervision is important!

      I switched to education. It pays better.

      1. exhausted to the core of my being*

        I do not have a masters degree of any sort, no. I’m only 2 years out of undergrad but have 4 combined years as a domestic violence victims advocate and residential support in mental health settings (the state I’m in granted me Mental Health Professional, so I can bill Medicaid and do some assessments). I’m doing mainly case management — SSI, SNAP, getting people connected to integrated healthcare, housing, and not much counseling, but still! I’ve had a part in some really positive change & know I’m effective to the extent I can be, but the organization is being totally irresponsible. The only supervision I have with my boss is going over the schedule weekly and then getting lectured on how behind I am. There are “plans” for me to join a clinical supervision group, but it keeps being put on the back-burner. My boss inherited an absolute dumpster-fire of a department, neglected for years. He’s not a bad person or bad leader necessarily, but is even more stretched thin than I am.

        1. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

          That sounds like a nightmare. I have no advice- my boss is too busy to give me any supervision either and I’m counseling 11 kids blind ( or so I feel)

          1. exhausted to the core of my being*

            I am also sorry you are Stuck In A Crazy Job! solidarity! remember that we deserve better and shouldn’t suffer for organizations that don’t care about us. (let me putting demands/proposed changes in writing and presenting them this afternoon inspire you!)

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          If you have case management experience, your local hospital might have some openings for patient navigation (at least that’s what mine calls it) – basically, a team of folks who help educate and otherwise connect patients to care services and other social services that they need.

          1. exhausted to the core of my being*

            OP here – thank you for this recommendation. I have heard that medical social work is a great area. However, most of the postings I see for it require MSW. I live in a large city, where it seems like you hit a ceiling without a masters quite quickly. I will still keep this in mind.

            1. Indy Dem*

              So another area too look at, if you have case management experience, is pharm/bio-tech companies. Many are hiring case managers to assist patients navigate insurance/doctors/charitable assistance. It’s definitely for-profit companies, but you are helping people. It’s often overlooked by people in your situation, but it would be a step up. Even better, most only require a college degree, not a masters (or any license). If you’ve worked on your population’s behalf with insurance issues, that would be a plus. Also, some positions are remote, so you don’t have to just look at positions at companies near you.

        3. Late to the game*

          Ugh, that sounds horrible.

          Is your Bachelor’s a BSW or do you have any one year clinical mental health counseling programs in your area?

          If you want to stay in human services and support yourself and be okay, you’ll likely need a master’s degree, unfortunately. Paraprofessional social work chews people up and spits them out. There’s a reason there’s so much turn over, part time positions, and an abundance of wealthy people in the profession- no one else can afford (physically, mentally, financially) to do it.

    2. Former DV Advocate*

      “I know the problems are institutional and not my fault — the work environment should be safer and they should pay better. At the same time, I feel like I just must not be trying hard enough & like I /can’t/ leave — the people I work with are resilient, but if I leave without a replacement, they will suffer. They’ve been looking to hire for months and have interviewed, but nobody wants to work here. The organization is well respected generally and other teams do not have this hard a time filling positions.”

      This is key and honestly, it sounds like you have had enough but feel like you need to stay out of duty and obligation to the folks you serve or to coworkers, but they will be fine. I know it doesn’t feel like it or sound like it, but they will be. I too had to leave a dumpster fire of an organization and I left due to staffing, low pay, poor support from leadership and after my life was threatened. My safety was put in jeopardy and the ED refused to exit the client and tried to fire me. I had to go above her head and she backed off. I finally quit after they hired advocates unsuitable for the job. One advocate even placed her client in danger by reaching out to her client’s abuser’s family about relocating to their area (!!!!). And yet, she was NOT fired. It was my wake up moment and I gave three weeks notice, but after having that very advocate become rude and refuse to pass along my calls, I had enough. I went to the ED and told her my last day would be the end of the week and laid out why. Because I advocated for myself my notice period was paid out as well as my vacation and honestly, they were afraid of what I would do if they mistreated me again.

      But sometimes, issues are so embedded that it is out of your control and you have to leave. So I say leave. If you think your boss will try to work with you in implementing these proposed changes go ahead. But it sounds like to me that you are trying to make this work to not feel like a quitter or that you left your clients out to dry. When I was an advocate I would tell myself that my clients survived before me and will survive after me. Maybe the org’s entire mental health department needs to go up in flames for change to be made. Maybe the org’s reputation needs to take a dent for the department to be able to be fully supported.

      I go back to what your wrote, “They’ve been looking to hire for months and have interviewed, but nobody wants to work here. The organization is well respected generally and other teams do not have this hard a time filling positions.” It seems like their reputation is already take a hit and potential hires see the writing on the wall and refuse to subject themselves to the “to bed bugs and other pests, second hand smoke & illicit substances, sexual harassment, generally feeling unsafe and unsupported.” And I get it. I do. I too stayed in my org with some really messed up issues, including a dirty workplace (like we had rats) and one of my former coworkers even put nails in my tires. Like I got so caught up in the mission, in serving my clients that I let a lot of fucked up things slide. I look back and honestly wondered if I had been brainwashed. But all of that is beyond you. Take care of yourself and your sanity because if you need to go to therapy to be able to cope and the job is taking a toll, it is not a good combination for anyone.

      As for me, I transitioned out. I had some tough conversations with myself of what I wanted to do next and realized that the social service field was not for me. I had zero desire to get my Master’s and actually made the move to return to school and get my science prereqs of out the way and apply to medical school in the future. I used my experience to get other jobs in other fields by playing up my communication skills, case management experience and honestly, just applying to anything that sounded interesting. It worked, but I had to learn how to tailor my experience and relearn how to interview. Hiring folks really didn’t want to hear about the extreme cases, so I learn to cherry pick my feel good, but low key cases. If you think you can get unemployment go ahead or maybe use the time to go out and interview and apply for jobs. I gave it my all as an advocate, but I accepted that I couldn’t do it all and instead, focused on what I could do. If I got behind, oh well I got behind and it wasn’t because I was lazy, but because the org created an environment that made it possible.

      I used my time to do the best I could and apply to jobs and honestly, I put my foot down. I refused to subject myself to mistreatment from clients and let my leadership know why. I would hang up on the yellers and screamers, I would exit and fire my clients that put my safety at risk and even though it made the ED feel a certain type of way, she knew I had zero issues going above her head again. I don’t want to go into too much detail because it would id me. However, I would look at your proposed changes and implement some safety changes as well. Spell out what you won’t tolerate and if any of your clients are putting you at risk or have sexually harassed you then they have to go. People who want help will behave. They will. Folks that are vulnerable do not get a multiple free passes on misbehavior because they are vulnerable. I promise you that any adjacent orgs that work with them also have either refused them services for the sexual harassment or they keep it together because they know their actions will have consequences. We don’t have to put with it because they are vulnerable and don’t know any better. They do. I wish you the best and I hope that you are able to either move on to a better org in this field or transition out. You have given it your all and you deserve to be well compensated and supported.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Brainwashed is a good description. A person can get so immersed in the abnormal that they forget what normal work places look like.

        OP, if your boss was going to rescue your situation the boss would have done it by now. Something is fishy about no one wanting to work there yet this is a good organization. There is either a problem with your branch of the org or there is a bigger issue.

        And your boss is cracking that whip, the boss knows it takes at least three people to do this job and they are telling you how far behind you are? How is this boss able to sleep at night?

        You can say you want to go on record as reporting safety issues. And talk about the things you describe here. The key phrase is “I want to go on record….”. I have found that this phrase makes bosses sit up straight in their chairs and don some professionalism.

        I do have one last card up my sleeve to suggest. Pull out the abuse card. Inadequate coverage can be construed as neglectful abuse. This is not a card to pull out if you are not prepared to walk out the door TODAY. You can say “This is a three person job and we have been down to two people for too long plus you have your own boss type work to do also. We have a crisis here. I am afraid we could be charged with neglect.” Perhaps the national/regional office can send in some temps to get your caught up. Perhaps you guys can hire temps at a lower rate.

        Personally, I think you should leave ASAP.

    3. Former DV Advocate*

      Forgot to mention, I would recommend Idealist.org and Work for Good to find any jobs in adjacent fields. I have had good luck on Work for Good (I got offers) and have interviewed for remote jobs on Idealist (been a finalist, but no offers). With my experience I also interviewed for trainer positions as well, so I don’t know if that it something you would be interested in. I also applied and was the top candidate for my state’s funding government agency (the folks that gave out the grant money to the DV programs), but withdrew because I was going to move out of state (I didn’t move at the last moment however). Your background is an asset, and even though I had limited experience, adjacent fields and orgs could tell from my interview that I cared about serving people and at the end of the day, you can’t manufacture caring. Not really.

      I also applied to other office jobs like working in a real estate office and the like and it was all because I would parlay my experience with their position. It wasn’t advocacy, but I could demonstrate I was creative (try finding resources for non-English speakers in a rural area), followed protocol and be detailed-oriented (I had to learn how to do protection orders across multiple counties, each had their own special way of doing things) and manage a case load and client expectations. So yeah, your background is an asset.

    4. Koala dreams*

      If you choose to stay and not immediately resign, I suggest you bring up the “too much work for one person” aspect in the weekly meetings with your boss, and ask which tasks have the highest priority for the coming week. If your boss says “all of them”, you repeat that it won’t be possible and tell them that you are going to do A, B and C first, and the rest if you unexpectedly have time over. And then you do only a reasonable amount of work, go home in time and spend your free time on personal things.

      As for the bad conscience, you are taking on too much responsibility for your employer’s shortcomings. It’s the employer’s duty to arrange a healthy work environment and do the hiring. You have no duty to sacrifice your health.

      1. exhausted to the core of my being*

        Thank you for these suggestions and the important reminders of taking care of yourself. I think part of the issue is that I tend to be overly optimistic about what I’m capable of and how long it takes to complete tasks + I’m a people-pleaser. It’s a terrible combination! I wish I had a supervisor who would help me manage my workload and assess what is reasonable. I just wrote a letter detailing what is doable and what I need to do my job, which I think is just as helpful for me in keeping myself accountable to not overdoing it.

    5. Sondra Uppenhowzer*

      If you are truly miserable and know you can’t go on like this then what are your options?

      1. Propose significant changes to your job to your boss, request to review the state of things in a month, and then evaluate your fit for the position.
      2. Take no action.

      Ultimately, work is the agreement to provide services for pay. Your employer should carry the burden of hiring enough staff, make arrangements to cover the open positions, provide you with a safe working environment, pay a fair wage.
      I’m not sure why you wouldn’t do the first option. You need to stop ‘owning’ your job. You can only own your performance.

      In general, many people don’t want to have what they feel to be ‘awkward’ conversations (pay raise, request flexible schedules, etc.) with their supervisors, and instead put up with the situation until it becomes unbearable. But you are not making the situation bad, you are reporting on the circumstances, and asking your employer do to their duty. And thinking that there is nothing the employer can do to fix this — not true. They could step up their hiring, they could hire short term to fill gaps, they could ask people in other depts to provide some coverage, they could increase the offering salary, give signing bonus, etc. etc.

      And now is the time for you to ask for MORE MONEY. A larger salary, a BONUS for doing the extra work (this does not mean the extra work becomes your regular responsibility). You’ve stepped up in these trying times — now it is your company’s turn to step up and acknowledge it. Even if you plan on leaving, ask for the extra money. You’ve earned it.

      1. exhausted to the core of my being*

        Thanks for this response — I really appreciate it. I should have specified in my first comment that I have done a lot “this isn’t working. I am overwhelmed. I need extra time to catch up.” talks with my boss and he’s been more flexible with me than is normal given these circumstances, so this isn’t a first talk. If I were in a typical team at this organization, I would have been given multiple corrective actions for being so behind. So, the “You need to stop ‘owning’ your job. You can only own your performance.” feels tricky. I know rationally that I wouldn’t be so behind if my job was more supportive, but being so behind makes me feel like my performance isn’t good enough to demand more. Again, rationally I know I’m being too hard on myself. Why I asked this question was I think 1. to get validation that I’m justified to be overwhelmed, 2. to understand if it’s weird to write a letter that lays out requests that has the implication “if this doesn’t happen I will need to resign”.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Don’t talk about resignation. You will just paint yourself into a corner and it doesn’t really look professional. Additionally, you will always wonder, “Do I have to threaten to resign every time a substantial issue comes up?”

          1. Begin the begine*

            LW is not saying the conversation is an ultimatum to the company of “do this or I’ am gone” as a negotiating ploy.
            This situation has become untenable, to the point that LW fears burning out and wants to resign. LW has a right to ask the employer to address the issues that make this job unbearable, and is acknowledging the difficulty of having this conversation because a lackizak of action on the company’s part will result in LW’s resignations. Not a threat, but a result.

        2. Begin the begine*

          So it sounds like the end result is actually the same, regardless of whether you take option 1 or 2. Option 1 means you tell them what you need them to address to allow
          you to keep working there or you resign; Option 2 (say nothing) you don’t tell them, burn out and need to resign.

          The outcomes are 1. They make the changes needed to keep you / or you resign. 2. You silently burn out until You resign.

          Option 2 seems sucky because you burn out first. Sure with option 1 there is still the chance they won’t make the changes (or even the changes aren’t enough) and you resign — but at least this way you will have done your best, and you resign without burning out.

        3. Sondra uppenhowzer*

          If you were a typical team at this organization, you would have a supervisor to share responsibilities with, and additional team members to handle the workload. On a typical team that doesn’t have staffing issues, you with would probably have pt left, and have no doubt about your performancc.

    6. Middle Manager*

      I certainly depends on your state and what you’d be qualified for, but in my state, it sounds like you’d be qualified to be a caseworker for welfare (medicaid, SNAP, TANF). That is a high stress job as well, but the environment is not as chaotic as yours sounds and you’d definitely have supervision.

      1. exhausted to the core of my being*

        Thanks for the suggestion! I am pretty sure I’d be qualified, but I don’t think I’d do well with such a rigid structure. I’ll still keep it in the list of considerations.

    7. Ezri Dax*

      As someone who works in crisis intervention, one helpful thing for me has been to remember that to be truly helpful to others, you have to take care of yourself first. You’ll help no one if you burn out trying to help everyone! Setting boundaries and making time for self care isn’t optional; its vital to making sure you’re serving your clients to the best of your ability. If your job is set up in a way that doesn’t allow you to do that, you may not be helping clients as much as you think. Which is to say, push back of you feel safe doing so and don’t hesitate to leave if nothing changes. Your impact t will be much greater in a role where you feel able to bring your whole self to the work.

    8. Belle of the Midwest*

      It won’t help much with the paperwork end (there’s a form for everything), but higher ed/student affairs might be a possibility. I transitioned from the mental health field to a TRIO program as an outreach counselor, then took an academic advising position and now work as a career counselor for first-and-second-year students. I love what I do. My master’s degree is in counseling.

    9. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “You need to stop ‘owning’ your job. You can only own your performance.” is a great comment here in this thread.

      I’ve been in your shoes. And when I finally quit, it took 9 months before I was able to actually function enough to find work … not in the field. With no unemployment.

      So… set boundaries on what you can and can’t do. Make them clear to your employer. Put them in writing. Either they will respond or they won’t. If they decide to fire you, you apply for Unemployment Insurance and if they fight it, you show that the job duties had changed significantly (either by volume or scope) and that you were no longer doing the job you signed up for.

      I have a MS in Counseling, and have a job with the Dept of Labor and love it. Helping people who need a hand up and out of bad situations, but no matter how busy it is, I still go home and don’t have to be responsible for my customers’ individual safety and all that.

    10. vlookup*

      I work in the nonprofit sector, and even though I’m not saving lives or working directly with the population my org serves, I care deeply about our mission and the work we do, and it creates a ton of guilt. I think this is pretty common in mission-driven work: that you feel like a bad person for not being willing to put up with being underpaid, overworked, and generally put through the ringer for the sake of the cause.

      I’ve found it helpful to reframe my thinking like this: I care about the work I do and want to be able to keep doing it for the rest of my career, but I won’t be able to if I get totally burnt out or I don’t make enough money to support my future family. It’s been easier for me to negotiate for a higher salary or a less crushing workload or whatever when I think of it as what I need to make my job sustainable. I also moved into a different type of role within the same sector, because I hated being in a forward-facing job and I’m better at the kind of work I do now (and, again, it’s more sustainable for me).

      So, I think you should threaten to quit if you want, or go ahead and make an exit plan if you don’t think the situation can improve to a point where you don’t feel like you feel now. Above all, do what you can to take care of yourself, and try to let go of the guilt about not being able to do it all when you’ve been put in an impossible situation.

    11. Boozhoo*

      Try looking into case management or related jobs at permanent supportive housing (PSH) projects. I’ve never been a case manager but my perception is that serving people who are out of the immediate stress and crisis of homelessness is a little to a lot less draining. Depending on the population you can also focus more on things like building community among the residents, social skills, cultural activities, etc. Being able to bill Medicaide is a big plus for you.

      Related, you could also look into working with PSH developers. They are often looking for people who have a strong service background who can help develop and implement service plans.

      Being at a shelter you probably know about all the local housing resources, but if not, your local CoC coordinator would know what PSH projects are in your area (google “HUD Continuum of Care”). As would your state’s housing finance agency. And probably your boss or their boss. Good luck.

  18. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    In actual work news, my company holiday party included a drunk podcast recommendation (reiterated sober in email the next day—she’d forgotten she’d mentioned it at the party, because she was drunk), an assumption that my kippah means I’m studying to be a rabbi (you should have seen my face), many pronoun errors, a complaint that nonbinary pronouns are inconvenient (my face was nearly melting off at this point), and someone asking whether my partner of 18 years and I were still together and then telling me to write a memoir because being queer and happy is so novel and unusual. I go to these parties because I don’t often get to chat with the higher-ups, but the higher-ups are also the gray-hairs, and I am rapidly running out of how many times I bite back “ok boomer” before one slips out.

    It also included a brief, non-gropey drunk hug and some really nice conversations about books, movies, and museums… all with people under 50. Humanity has hope, still, I suppose.

    1. Not Australian*

      “being queer and happy is so novel and unusual”

      OMFG, I think my brain just broke. Like all/most relationships, the time we tend to hear about these things is either at landmarks or if something goes wrong; there are a hell of a lot of low-profile happy queer relationships in the world, just as there are low-profile happy straight (and multi and indeed any variation you can think of) relationships. Someone seems to have imbibed some seriously outdated stereotyping here.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        This is why I hate that so many movie and TV storylines with queer characters tend to be so angsty.

        1. Fikly*

          Well, they have to be angsty, because we can’t show a queer character living well, now can we? That would make it look like being queer is a good thing!

    2. Wired Wolf*

      “nonbinary pronouns are inconvenient”…this about sums up my mom’s feelings on the issue. You should have seen her reaction when my state decided to allow an “X” gender option on ID cards/licenses. I’ve been called “sir” so many times–even when my hair is long and needs to be cut–that it doesn’t bother me and for some reason that bothers her.

      A local store has added pronoun pins to their selection and a friend got me one “They/Them”. Another friend with us promptly declared that she didn’t understand nonbinary–literally does not know what the word means. There are a lot of things she doesn’t know and we’re waiting for her to offend the wrong person…

    3. fposte*

      I was thinking that the podcast business wasn’t a big deal and then I realized it was just the opening salvo. Yikes.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Oh, I forgot to mention that when I said I don’t listen to podcasts because I have auditory processing difficulties, I got “What’s thaaaaat?” and was expected to explain it in detail. And then I got the podcast rec again in email the next day.

    4. djekchwf*

      Your party sounds terrible, I’m sorry. It sounds like you had trouble getting some folks to see you as an individual.

      I did cringe at your kinda labeling your execs or whoever as “gray-hairs” & boomers. As someone who is not quite a boomer, but works almost exclusively with 20 & 30 somethings, I get the “Wow, you picked that up really quickly.” comments. Assumptions based on age aren’t cool either.

      1. Fikly*

        I don’t think it’s an assumption if they are saying offensive things that are making her want to say “ok boomer” in response.

      2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        I’m in my 40s and have plenty of gray hairs myself. I know there are lots of clueless younger people and clueful older people. But the divide between “people younger than me who I can have reasonable conversations with” and “people older than me who I want to run and hide from” was pretty stark at this particular event.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I sympathize with you in spades. And I thank you for biting back “OK Boomer”. I am over 50. I am not a boomer. I’m Gen X baby bust all the way.
      Yes I know boomer-era TV shows, music, and pop icons — but that’s because it was unavoidable when we were growing up behind the surge. Especially when my friends & I all had much-older siblings.
      I’ve known since kindergarten that following the boomers would make my life weird — the town closed 2 elementary schools the year before I started, and put two rental trailers into the parking lot for kindergarten. (Such the upper middle class experience…)
      Unfortunately there is work to be done with plenty of post-boomers. My LBGTQ friends have told me similar horror stories with co-workers much younger than yours. So…. that sucks. :( It just means we need to find a clever way to snark on behavior, and leave age out of it.

      1. Kat in VA*

        A humorous aside on the “OK, Boomer” trend (which is already passé, lol).

        I’m a Gen Xer, squarely so. My teenage daughters thought it would be hilarious to sling “OK, Boomer” in my direction.

        Both of them got an, “Sure thing, Edgelord” right back and they quit. Immediately.

        My children forget I was around for the birth of the internet to the common population, and I have forgotten more memes and internet pop culture than they’ve learned up to this point. I also find it interesting that they simultaneously think I know everything* yet are always asking, “Hey, Mom, did you hear about /current internet thing/ on the web?” and then act surprised when I say yes.

        * True story – one of my daughters asked me if I knew what “suka” meant. I absentmindedly replied, “It means ‘bitch’ in Russian…wait, who called you that?!?!?” and we went on with our discussion. Later, I wasn’t sure if it was funnier that she automatically assumed that I knew what it meant…or that I actually DID know what it meant. :P

    6. Anonnnnn*

      “nonbinary pronouns are inconvenient”

      Erasure is also inconvenient.

      Also, it’s the same amount of syllables…

  19. Late to the game*

    folks, i need to finish my M.S so I can get a better job. I’m babysitting and teaching English online right now, after running out of funding from my M.S (I dropped out of the PhD portion so had one term to finish up). The thing is…I just don’t work on it. I need to finish it so I can get a better job with better pay, but meh. I’m just so uninterested and unmotivated. I decided not to be an academic but I don’t know what I WANT to be and I feel like I can’t move forward until I finish this degree.

    1. Mary Connell*

      You can do it! Being done gives you more options! If you give us updates here we can cheer your progress.

      What’s your final step? Coursework or thesis or something else?

      1. DoomCarrot*

        As a fellow academic – could it be that your lack of motivation is actually fear of the unknown/the realisation that once you finish, you will have to make some decisions?

        So don’t put off finding a job/career path that interests you “until you finish”, because that sounds like a delaying tactic for something uncomfortable. Instead, put in a little hard work now, find something you could be enthusiastic about, and then give yourself the pursuit of it as a reward for finishing your Master’s – which you’ll then be motivated to do!

        1. Reba*

          Agree with all of this. There is some interesting research about procrastination and the way it appears with anxiety.

          Work on the thesis for 10 minutes a day, then 20, etc… get up to about an hour a day and you’ll be done before too long.

          I know that it’s difficult to keep working on something without a firm deadline, that you likely have very complicated feelings about! BTDT. But you can do it.

    2. new kid*

      I think you may have that backwards, at least from my experience. I’ve always felt grad school is different from undergrad in that you should always go to grad with a plan already in place (whereas undergrad it’s much more common to figure it out as you go). So I think maybe you’re struggling to find motivation because of the big question mark that follows. Can you take some time to try to figure out what direction you want to go next? What Color Is Your Parachute or similar books may be helpful if you don’t know where to start. I have a sneaking suspicion that once you have an answer to that question it’ll be much easier to find the motivation to finish the degree. Good luck!!

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      I’ve known multiple people who got better jobs with a masters in progress on their resume. There’s no reason to wait until you’re done, unless that’s not actually what’s holding you back. Other posters have provided good advice on that.

      As a practical matter in completing your final paper: set aside some time to work on it each day. What worked for me was 15 minutes a day. Some days, I would be inspired and work for longer, other days, I put in my 15 minutes and was done for the day. I counted staring at a computer screen “working,” but I usually was able to get something done after a few minutes. (I was halfway through my capstone and went through a period of “I’m going to drop out. I don’t care. I’m a failure anyway. I hate this topic. I’m terrible writer and this is boring and stupid.”) I finally did finish, but I still dream about grad school and wake up in a cold sweat that I never turned my capstone in.

      That said, you don’t have to finish unless or until you want to. Sometimes taking a break is the best thing to do.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If I had one thing to do over in life again, I would take this decision a whole lot less seriously. Does this stuff feel like a one ton suitcase on your back? Decide to set the suitcase down.

      Time to shift gears. What are you good at? What can you do for say the next 5 years that won’t cause you to run away from your home and your country? Pick something you are naturally good at so you have a reasonable reassurance that you will stay employed.

      Here’s the part I want to share: Once we see we are going TOWARD something/anything, it becomes easier to complete what is in front of us. It only makes sense that you don’t want to complete your degree because you probably don’t see it as leading you to anything.

      If 5 years seems like an inconceivably long time, the lower the time frame to 3 years. What do you think you can do for the next three years successfully?

      If you have a hard time naming things you are good at, ask trusted people (not jerks) in your life to help you with adding in their observations about you.

    5. CM*

      I think you should talk to your supervisor about how you’re struggling and try to get advice for what you can do to wrap things up in a way that will allow you to pass and graduate.

      If your supervisor sucks and doesn’t want to help you figure it out, my generic advice is to start by doing a really half-assed job of whatever you have left to do (thesis, coursework, whatever) on the basis that that’s better than a no-assed job, and then see how you feel. There’s a chance you’ll start feeling motivated to work on stuff more once you get the ball rolling. Or maybe you won’t, and you’ll hand in a half-assed thesis. But you have a better chance of graduating with a half-assed thesis than no thesis at all.

  20. 867-5309*

    I have three open positions and have noticed a strange trend… I email candidates suggested time frames and ask them to pick what works for them, and then they reply with a calendar invite for the time they want. I then have to write back and ask them to cancel it, because there is a specific dial-in we are going to use. Is this a new thing?

    Also, I’m getting asked at the end of interviews, “Do you have any feedback for me?” It’s so uncomfortable.

    1. TechWorker*

      Are these internal or external candidates? I can see internal candidates being like ‘this is just how I book my time’ but I do agree it’s weird because you’d expect the interviewer to ‘own’ the meeting. (It also seems impractical if you have multiple people to schedule in). Can you maybe change the wording to make this clearer? ‘Please let me know which times are convenient and I’ll send an invite out with interview details’. Other option is just to schedule and ask them to let you know if it needs moving.

      1. 867-5309*

        They’re external and I do include a line at the end that says, “Let me know what time works for you and I’ll send a calendar invite.”

        It feels like another one of those “gumption” things. :)

        1. valentine*

          I’ll send a calendar invite.
          They may think they’re being polite by sparing you this bit. Maybe add “with the dial-in and other instructions.”

          2. CM*

            +1

            They think they’re saving everyone a redundant step, but letting them know there’s another email coming no matter what should stop it.

        2. Llellayena*

          Separate the sentences: Please let me know which time works for you. Once you’ve indicated a time I will send a calendar invite with the call in information.

          When people read quickly, the “I” tends to get lost because it’s short. Separate sentences means the brain stops to think. (This coming from someone who could write a one sentence, half page paragraph…)

        3. Rubyrose*

          It might not be gumption. They might be showing you that their reading and comprehension skills are lacking. Depending on how many otherwise qualified candidates you receive and how important reading skills are to the position, you might use this as a way of screening people out.

          1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

            Eh, people glaze over details sometimes. I agree that there are a very, very small number of roles where that could be a factor (say, if you’re hiring an editor that will have a 100% perfection standard) but overall this feels like a recipe for rejecting people who could be really great at the job!

      2. 867-5309*

        This comment on that post is great: That’s what I don’t like about the question really – it sounds like a challenge: either come up with a reason why I’m not good enough, or I should I expect an offer tomorrow, right?!

        1. QCI*

          I guess it could be worded different. Think of more like “is there anything you want more info or clarification about”. Or maybe they hope that if you have reservations about them you could discuss it.

          I get why they ask. After tons of interviews and never hearing back you start to wonder what you’re doing wrong, and who better to ask than the interviewer?

          1. College Career Counselor*

            That’s how it should be worded. Otherwise, “Do you have any feedback for me” sounds like asking to be graded on your interview performance. It’s an odd note for the interviewer to hear.

          2. coloring outside the lines*

            I’m sympathetic, but we regularly have application pools of 100+. If you made it to the phone interview, you’re one of our top choices. Being asked to identify concerns with your application on the spot is really awkward because if I had serious concerns, you wouldn’t be getting a phone interview.

            1. Combinatorialist*

              This is why I like the (recommended by Alison) wording “Do you have any concerns that I can address”. The second part makes it easy to say no — you aren’t saying you have no concerns, just that you don’t need any more information.

        2. Natalie*

          I wouldn’t read much into it. It’s an incredibly common bit of advice for people interviewing, most of them aren’t thinking about it that much. Nor does it mean you have to respond if you already sent them a rejection if there’s just too many people asking.

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I feel like the end of the interview is the wrong time to ask for feedback. A lot of the time, I can’t really articulate my feelings about an interview until I’ve had some time to reflect on it and talk over it with the rest of my interview panel. Being asked for feedback in the moment would definitely feel like I’m being put on the spot.

        The time to ask for feedback is when you’re contacted after the interview. At that point, the interviewer has had some time for reflection and is probably much better able to tell you what you did well and what you can do better.

        1. Senor Montoya*

          I’ve responded to the feedback question by reiterating the timeline: We’ll be reviewing candidates over the next few weeks and will get back in touch with you to set up the second-round interview/confirm your reference list/whatever is the next step if we make that decision/decide to move you to the next step. [pause, cock head to one side quizzically] Was there something specific we could answer for you?

        2. 867-5309*

          This.

          I think the time to ask for feedback is if you’ve been rejected. If I’m moving you forward in the process, then obviously you did well enough.

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Yeah, and honestly I’m not even clear on why it needs to be declined, even? Just send your own invitation (and let them cancel theirs if they want), or add the call-in details to their invite (depends on their default settings, but almost all of my gcal invites default to “guests can edit details”) or just email them the call-in info and let them add it or not to their own invite. It’s interesting that it happens enough to be a trend for OP to notice, but yeah, I don’t think it really needs to be “handled” in any particular way, or great pains taken to avoid it! Folks just like having stuff on their calendars.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      Are they also emailing you back or just the calendar invite? If they are also emailing you, it might be just a function of the calendar sending out the notification when they set up the event in their own calendar. Not that that makes it much better since it’s not that hard to not send the invite automatically, but less weird than gumption or lack of reading comprehension.

      This wouldn’t be a deal breaker, but I’d be on guard for other signs of oddness. In the meantime, I’d just ignore theirs and send my own.

      1. 867-5309*

        It’s not been a deal-breaker – just surprising. :) It would never occur to me to send a calendar invite to someone hiring. I assume they will take the lead on that.

    5. Stornry*

      My initial emails to candidates generally says something like “we’re holding interviews on X date(s), please call our office at xxx-xxxx to schedule an interview”. That seems pretty clear. Occasionally, I’ll get someone who will email instead of call but I just figure they may have difficulty calling us during business hours.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It sounds like mere mention of a calendar invite, causes… uh.. calendar invites. Stop mentioning them and see how things change?

        In regard to asking if you have any feedback, why not just redirect with something like, “It’s too early in the process for me to have formed any opinion OR I have to check in with the hiring team or manager.” Or you could just say, “No, I don’t at this time.”

        1. Kat in VA*

          Maybe just the phrase, “Please email me back with a few dates/times that you are available” and take out the term “calendar invite” altogether, in case that’s what they’re sticking on.

  21. Lorac*

    Anyone have tips for dealing with typos? I have a habit of rephrasing my sentences as I’m typing, resulting in a lot of silly/odd looking sentences. Just yesterday I sent this out:

    “Also, it looks like the API section seems incomplete and is missing endpoints, but that should be another ticket.”

    I guess I was originally going to say “Also, it looks like the API section is complete” but as I was typing, I changed my mind and wanted to go with “Also, the API seems incomplete” and just didn’t go back and delete the earlier half.

    Spellcheck doesn’t catch these things, and proofreading never works since I always see what I expect. At the end of they day it’s not *too* terrible, but since I make a lot of these mistakes regularly and it really bugs me professionally. Anyone have any secret tips to deal with these?

    1. Lorac*

      And of course I did the same thing again in this comment…rephrased a sentence mid-way and didn’t catch it again…

      Should be “but I make a lot of these mistakes regularly and it really bugs me professionally.”

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        I think you have two options:

        1) Break the habit of rephrasing as you go.

        2) Do two passes, either outline-then-write or write-then-edit.

        Two passes for every email (and blog comment) sounds tiring but so does breaking a habit, so go with whatever seems more plausible for you.

        A technical solution that may help: if you use Gmail, enable the feature that waits a few seconds between when you click “send” and actually sending the email, so you can quickly reread your email after sending and then cancel it/call it back if you spot an error you want to fix. I make embarrassingly frequent use of this tool.

        1. Lorac*

          Oh yeah, that Gmail feature saved me a ton. My old company used Gmail and I made judicious use of it. Unfortunately my current place is Outlook and I did try to look for a delay send extension, but ended up with emails stuck in my outgoing box.

          Both options are so tough…I guess I need to really clamp down on that habit or have a better way of following through and making sure I reword the whole sentence. It’s definitely not possible for me to outline everything I ever write.

          1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

            If you want to try to break the habit, look into Acceptance Commitment Therapy techniques, which are sort of Eastern mindfulness filtered through Western psychotherapy. You accept that you do this thing, you commit to being someone who doesn’t do the thing, and then you practice being mindful of yourself doing the thing and catching it sooner and sooner as you work toward being the better version of you that you envision. I think it was developed for smoking cessation but it can be applied to any habit. You can be quite self-directed with it, but IME it’s best done with the support of a therapist or other person/people who can help you get back into that calm mindful space when you slip into being mad at yourself or impatient or overly confident.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Try drafting emails without anyone in the “TO” field. For a multi-person reply, copy them all into the top of the email message body. That’s what I do for replies where I don’t want my emotions to show through. I reread the text in entirety before I put names back in the TO field.
            Maybe it would help you too.

          3. Globiculator*

            I learned the Outlook delay version after a particularly embarrassing email went to the wrong person with a similar email name. Now I have a copy of what I send automatically deposited in my inbox (as a reminder/flag of sorts) and set up a “delay rule” in options that delays my email for 3 minutes.

      2. Senor Montoya*

        Review your email before you send it.

        If you think you’ll miss errors on a quick re-read, leave it as a draft and come back to it a little later.

      3. Senor Montoya*

        The other thing (see, I should have waited to post!) is that your readers are probably not even noticing the errors, if they’re this minor. I actually had to stop and reread your error sentence because I didn’t notice anything amiss on the first reading.

    2. Sara(h)*

      Along with the gmail delay, which is useful, you can create a delay in Outlook. You add rule and can set the delay for however long you want. I have mine set for 2 minutes, which sometimes seem a bit long when I’m I want to go through quickly, but it has saved me so many times — not just for content, but for when I cc’d someone accidentally, or almost sent the email to Susan Smith instead of Susan Simon, etc.
      I also created a workaround by making the exception to the delay rule, so that when I mark an email as “important” (i.e. the red exclamation point), it goes through immediately.
      Aside from those checks and balances, I also think the mistakes you’re talking about are super minor if it’s just routine correspondence with colleagues. Your message still comes across clearly. When I’m reading an email quickly for content, I don’t even always notice these types of errors in other people’s emails, and when I do, I don’t think twice of it. As long as I understand the point, it’s not something that matters to me.

      1. Sara(h)*

        Case in point — the first paragraph of my comment, 2nd & 3rd sentence, should read, “You add a rule and can set the delay for however long you want. I have mine set for 2 minutes, which sometimes seem a bit long when I want a message to go through quickly…”
        (I didn’t proofread the comment at all before submitting, whereas I do proofread every email I send, at least quickly. But still, I think little to nothing was lost in terms of the content.)

    3. Eng*

      I have the same problem. One thing I sometimes do is if I want to add something to the middle of a sentence, I put a few line breaks where I’m going to add it so there’s lots of visual separation, and then I have to manually figure out how to fit the rest back instead of assuming it’ll work and ending up with the kind of awkward phrases you mention. Not foolproof but another thing to try maybe.

    6. Liane*

      1)I don’t use it, but many people swear by reading their work from End to Beginning.
      2)Myself, I prefer to change formatting (bold it, increase size or change font, etc.) to something different for proofreading, then changing it back when I am done. This also can solve the Big Problem with self-proofreading–you are so familiar with what you intended to write that your brain can’t pick up errors.
      3)The more time between writing it and proofreading, the better. Even just something quick like going to grab a drink or stretch helps.

    7. LQ*

      Writing emails in a different tool can help too especially if that tool has more robust checking. I have prowrite aid and grammarly that I’ve used when trying to knock down sloppiness in my writing.

    8. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

      Write your email in word, change the font and color, and re-read it. The new look tricks your brain into seeing what’s actually there instead of what you expect. Or proofread it backwards.

      This will also train your brain to slow down, and maybe you won’t need the tricks eventually.

    9. BRR*

      I don’t know about gmail but all programs in newer versions of office contain a read out loud feature under the review tab.

    10. WineNot*

      I use Grammarly! I am not sure if it will catch exactly that, but it catches typos, unnecessary/incorrect punctuation, extra words, and will let you know if something doesn’t make sense. You can download it on your desktop and use it for email, etc.

    12. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Re-read everything “outloud”. Move your mouth. Don’t need to make actual noise, but if it’s only inside your head you’ll only see what you’re expecting to see.

    13. Hannah Banana*

      I make small errors like that in presentations. What helps me is taking a step back, leaving it be for a few hours (or even an hour) then coming back and reading through it again with a fresh perspective.

      Another thing that helps is reading it out-loud.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        If it’s a tiny error and it’s not getting in the way of your readers’ / listeners’ comprehension and/or it doesn’t make you look careless/foolish/unprofessional, I just would not worry about it.

        Unless it’s a big error, don’t correct it at the time, especially not if you’re going to be flustered while correcting. That just makes you look bad.

        1. Hannah Banana*

          I meant that I read it out-loud to myself, not that I catch the errors while I am giving the presentation.

    14. Admin of Sys*

      Reading outloud helps as other folks have mentioned, but if you’re in an environment that doesn’t work for, you can also read it backwards. Start from the last sentence and read back up the paragraph. You can catch weirdness as you’re forced to rearrange things back into the proper order.

    15. LilySparrow*

      Do your last proofread backwards.

      You will have to rebuild each sentence in your mind, which doesn’t allow you to skim over.

      Also, make a rule for yourself that if you revise as you go, you have to backspace from the end and retype the desired version from scratch – no cut n paste or jumping around.

      Also, FWIW, the examples you used really aren’t that bad. They still make sense. I’ve seen some real word salad made that way, yours aren’t even close.

  22. Joules*

    So I feel as if I’m failing in a mid-career industry switch – does anyone have insights or suggestions on how they turned their career around when all things point south?

    I switched out of heavily technical consulting into corporate finance because I’ve been interested in direct investment for 15 years – since a master’s degree in a physical science. No one took me seriously in finance until I finished my MBA. However, with this career change I’m crawling out of my skin; after three years of glowing reviews I am being laid off due to the lack of work. I’ve been looking for a new firm in the same industry for a year and getting feedback that I’m not qualified due to the paucity of a demonstrable track record in investments (note I have no influence in the success of my managers’ negotiations). I’m getting feedback to try working with startups since I work with early-stage companies, but I’ve been burned by founders pulling offers and contracts multiple times before and would consider this only as a last resort.

    I’m feeling lost as to how to decipher what I’m actually good at versus what I want to do while making sure it pays enough to cover student loans. I’m in a rather urgent position to figure this out as I just learned my missing / late paychecks are symptomatic of prior episodes of poor cash management, and that my manager plans to fight unemployment claims.

    1. megan*

      You may want to try to search for open positions that would be a more lateral move for you, instead of a purely upward move. As a former management consultant, hearing that they’re looking for demonstrable success in a portfolio makes me think they’re looking for someone with a work background at the level of your manager at your old job.

      What are your specific skills? When you’re searching for a position, try searching for whatever skills you have (for example, in my case, it would be fluency in the Python programming language or the R statistical analysis software) as a kind of keyword search. Finance and investing are notorious industries for ambiguous job titles, so you might have better luck looking for companies who want your specific skills, instead of just trying to search job titles.

  23. Anon for this*

    I have a hypothetical question that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. How does freedom of religion get worked out with moral standings?

    Let’s say a company hires a fundamental Muslim man who doesn’t shake hands with anyone because he doesn’t want to be seen as prejudiced towards the women in the office who he refuses to touch at all. Can I, as a woman, be opposed to working with him because I only want to work with coworkers who view me as an equal?

    Or what if a company hires a fundamental Christian who won’t talk to women one on one. Can I be opposed to working with him for the same reason? Note that this isn’t about the practicalities of maybe needing to work with coworkers one on one, but the simple situation of working with someone who does not view me as an equal.

    Or what if a company hired a fundamental Jew. Can I as a vegetarian be opposed to working with him due to that religion’s treatment of animals?

    The list goes on, and could include other cultural groups aside from religions. These things aren’t obvious usually, but if found out, I’d have concerns. I just don’t want to work with people who have views so severely different than mine when those views are opposite to my core being. I wonder how an employer would react to this.

    1. Not Australian*

      I think there’s a difference between ‘my religion prevents me from doing x’ and ‘I don’t want to do x’. A lot of us have to swallow our personal preferences and work with people we dislike (for whatever reason), especially in public-facing roles. It’s part of the cost of doing business – we don’t generally get to pick and choose who we interact with.

      1. valentine*

        In all your examples, you’re painting both the men and their religions with a massive brush. The answer to them all is no and I don’t think it’s possible or good to narrow your colleagues to your values like this, especially if you’d be okay with a wider range of clients.

        The Muslim in your example would be treating you as an equal by not singling you out (and I love the hand-over-heart gesture because no touching).

        1. Clisby*

          Also, that’s not exclusive to Muslim men. From the UAE embassy in Washington, DC:

          “Pious Muslim women do not shake the hands or touch men who are not in their families. Rather, they might simply put their hand over their hearts to show their sincerity in welcoming the visitor.”

          I don’t see any of this as a problem as long as they treat men and women alike in the workplace. As far as I’m concerned, the less touching of co-workers, the better.

    2. TechWorker*

      (‘As a vegetarian’ :p) I don’t think the example of ‘this religion is cruel to animals’ is a good one. Big meat industries treat animals horrendously so unless you happen to work in a vegan cafe or something the majority of people you interact with are going to be in some way contributing to bad treatment of animals. The Jewish coworker may be vegetarian too… I would be particularly unimpressed at a colleague who tried to use that as justification for not working with a Jewish person.

      The other examples are more subtle because they involve someone directly treating you differently – there I think you would be well within your rights to complain about being treated differently – but not to refuse to work with people with different viewpoints. Or at least, if you made that choice, you’d be expected to handle it yourself by choosing to work elsewhere.

      There’s a limit there Ofc, I think it’s reasonable to not want to work with, say, someone who is a member of a banned fascist group, but being a member of a common religion does not fall into that category.

      TLDR – it’s not your companies job to accommodate your moral views any more than it is to accommodate the views of the fundamentalist Christian who doesn’t want to work with women. If you absolutely couldn’t work with someone you disagree with then you’d have to choose a place of employment where disagreement is extremely unlikely.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        The other examples are more subtle because they involve someone directly treating you differently – there I think you would be well within your rights to complain about being treated differently – but not to refuse to work with people with different viewpoints. Or at least, if you made that choice, you’d be expected to handle it yourself by choosing to work elsewhere.

        This. I think you have standing to refuse to work with someone who treats you differently (i.e., someone who shakes others’ hands, but won’t shake yours.) But you can’t refuse to work with someone who thinks differently. And quite honestly, we do this on a daily basis. I work with people who don’t view me as equal, or don’t like me, for non-religious reasons. That’s what work is.

    3. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I think you have to decide for yourself where the line is drawn, and whether your staunch moral code is also staunchly opposed to discriminating against people because of their religious beliefs.

      I’d also make sure you know what those beliefs are. There’s no such thing as a “fundamendal Jew” and I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say “that religion’s treatment of animals”—schechita? kaporos? What if that hypothetical Orthodox Jewish coworker turns out to also be a vegetarian? (It’s a very easy way to keep kosher!) Would you still shun him because some other Orthodox Jews do things you dislike?

      It sounds like you’re very concerned about people thinking of you as an equal, but misogyny is so baked into the culture that (alas) this isn’t something that can be necessarily expected of anyone from any background. It’s not like atheist circles are bastions of gender equality. I would do some serious self-examining around your conflation of sexism with religious beliefs. It seems likely to throw a lot of babies out with the bathwater while giving less religious misogynists a pass.

      Working with people whose views are severely different from ours is part of what we sign up for when we work in companies where we don’t make the hiring decisions. If that’s not comfortable for you, maybe freelancing or starting your own business would be a better fit.

      1. River Song*

        That’s a really good point! We live in a patriarchal society. It’s not all men. I dont even think it’s most men. But there are definitely plenty of men who think of women as less than, and some use religion as an excuse but plenty don’t.

        1. LabTechNoMore*

          I hear those comments a lot with Halal foods too. Sure, eating Halal meat is more cruel than not eating any meat, but it always seems to come from people who buy/consume factory farmed meats.

      3. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I’m wondering why the OP is so opposed to kosher slaughterhouses but has absolutely nothing to say about non-kosher slaughterhouses. And the OP is so eager to look down at Jews without even considering that they might be vegetarians.

    4. Avasarala*

      Here is how I would react to that.
      1. It sounds like you have some biases against religion… I know these are hypothetical but this statement gives me pause: “I just don’t want to work with people who have views so severely different than mine when those views are opposite to my core being.” When you phrase it like this it doesn’t sound so tolerant of diversity, does it?

      2. If everyone is kind and professional, then it doesn’t matter what their views are. The workplace rules should be set so that everyone behaves fairly to everyone.
      If your Muslim coworker treats women equally to men in every way (promotions, salary, support, etc) except physical touch, I don’t see why his religion is relevant. If the Christian coworker similarly treats women kindly and professionally but does not hold 1 on 1 meetings with anyone (and is in a role like receptionist where that doesn’t impede their job), then their religion shouldn’t matter to you. And if a Jewish coworker is eating a chicken sandwich in the break room, and you refuse to work on a project with them, then their religion is not relevant.

      Ultimately if everyone is behaving kindly and professionally, then no, you can’t discriminate against your coworkers and refuse to work with them based on your perception of their religious beliefs. You have no idea what they think, and it is immoral to refuse to work with someone based on a part of their personhood that has no effect on you. I don’t see it any different than someone refusing to work with you because of your religion (or lack their of), your vegetarianism, your gender, etc.

      tldr; if you said “I don’t want to work with this Jew because I’m a vegetarian. I just don’t want to work with people who have views so opposite to my core being.” I would say, well, our workplace values diversity and respect, and sounds like it’s not a good fit for you, so let’s talk about transitioning you out.

      1. Fikly*

        I’m tolerant right up until I need to be tolerant of intolerance. It’s like people who say, well, it’s just a political difference. When someone says being ok with human rights abuses is a just political difference, they’re wrong. The person ok with the human rights abuses may have different politics, but being ok with abusing human rights is on an entirely different scale.

        But to the broader point, if they are treating every group the same, then it’s not a problem.

        1. LabTechNoMore*

          The problem with this view is that people tend to project intolerance onto religious minorities. Even in OP’s given example, there’s an assumption that the rationale behind not touching anyone is to avoid touching women versus, say, having an aversion to touch. I’m Muslim, and am far more reserved about physical touch as it feels very intimate to me. I’m also gay–it’s not really a man/woman thing. Personally I never really thought of it a religious thing, or even a cultural quirk, I’ve just always been averse to touch outside of romantic intimacy.

          I also tend to get a lot of awkwardness and avoidance from openly gay colleagues who aren’t aware that I’m gay, projecting violent hatred onto me because I’m an Arab man.

          1. LabTechNoMore*

            That last line didn’t really come out right, but essentially what I’m saying is that a lot of the left-leaning progressive ally-types are the ones that ironically will treat me worse because of assumed prejudicial views that are prejudicially based on my race. And it just hurts all the more when it’s coming from my own community. Didn’t mean to imply that us LGBT folk are any more/less racist than the general populous.

            1. Fikly*

              Well, sure, that can be a problem.

              But if you assume everyone who is tolerant except not of intolerance holds that view, than you are making just as many assumptions. I wait until I see intolerance demonstrated. I work very hard not to assume that someone is going to be intolerant until proven otherwise. Of course I have my biases, we all do. I can’t eliminate them, but I can work to recognize those thoughts, and realize they are happening, and adjust my actions and behavior.

              1. Avasarala*

                No one is asking anyone to be tolerant of intolerance. But the OP was talking about objecting to working with people based on their stereotypes and perceptions of their beliefs. And extreme ones at that. You can’t claim the moral high ground if you turn around and judge others based on their beliefs, not their behavior. And you can’t ask for clemency as you work through your biases if you won’t give that same forgiveness to others.

    5. On a pale mouse*

      Behavior, not belief. If a coworker shakes hands with men but not women, then that’s something the employer could legitimately address. If he treats men and women the same, handshakes and all other interactions, then it’s not the employer’s business what he believes. In fact an employer trying to take action based solely on his religious beliefs would be at high risk of violating his civil rights. (If he’s going around SAYING women shouldn’t be in the workplace or something, that would be different, but that wasn’t your hypothetical.)

      You can certainly choose not to work with people whose beliefs you dislike, but as someone else already said, it’s on you to find a place where you don’t have to. All the employer is going to enforce is behavior.

      1. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

        Bingo.

        You don’t have a right to not work with people whose beliefs are different from yours, no matter how strongly you feel about those beliefs. Or rather, you do – you are free to quit your job at any time.

        1. RoadsLady*

          It also clears up the bias of perspective.

          What a person is actively doing vs what generalities you may know of their faith.

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        This is where I land as well. If your boss is opposed to having one-on-one meetings with a person of a different gender, so they just don’t take one-on-one meetings at all, that’s a little kooky, but it’s still a boss trying to treat all their employees equally. A boss who’s opposed to one-on-one meetings with people of a different gender but still holds one-on-one meetings with people of their same gender is a horse of a different color, and should definitely get some push back.

        I think the difficulty I had reading the original comment here is that it gets pretty far into “guess what people are thinking and why they’re thinking it, then make judgements based on that guess” territory. I’d say that unless a person is treating people inequitably or comes right out and tells you what they think and why they wish they could treat people inequitably, you don’t really have anything to push back against.

    7. Taking The Long Way Round*

      Well, the vegetarian thing wouldn’t fly because being vegetarian isn’t a protected characteristic under the law, but religion is.

      I don’t know if you could argue that sexism is at play (I don’t think you could btw) and as sex and gender are protected characteristics here in the UK you might be able to counter it with that, but probably not and an employment lawyer from your country of origin might be best placed to advise!

      1. Alianora*

        Even if being vegetarian was a protected characteristic, I still don’t think that would work. Religious people can’t insist that they only work with others of their same religion, so similarly, vegetarians would not be able to insist on only working with people whose diets they consider acceptable.

    8. Asenath*

      I try to accept that people who do have profoundly different beliefs from mine are still human beings, and so should be accepted in the workplace with professional behaviour going both ways. I know – well, maybe it’s better to say, “guess” – that many of my co-workers have profoundly different moral views on certain issues than I do. I said “guess” because I don’t ask – to use your examples – whether they eat meat, or think of me as an equal or whatever. On the other hand, sometimes I do know, from things they do or say. If they do their job, don’t interfere with me doing mine, I don’t really care if they don’t shake my hand or do or don’t eat meat. Sure, some people’s moral views are aligned with their religion and some aren’t. In my private life, I have some interest in the kinds of beliefs people hold, at least in some areas. But at work, my interests are much more limited, and I don’t really care what my co-workers think of my beliefs or I of theirs, as long as we all do our jobs. That’s enough of a challenge sometimes.

    9. Saffron Sam*

      I’d have to ask what job you’re doing where their beliefs so strongly impact your core being.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        I’d like to know what unicorn job one could do that screens out everything one finds abhorrent.

    10. RoadsLady*

      Hypothetical question in return: Would you be willing to accept others refusing to work with you for a list of reasons?

      1. River Song*

        So, I live in a rural county in a super rural state in a conservative part of the country. When I was in my early 20s I worked for a small daycare. One day one of the newer hires (small daycares always have new hires because the pay is so lousy. Who wants to be yelled at by parents and change poop for less than minimum wage?) mentioned she was gay. Later, another new hire came to me, absolutely scandalized. She wanted to know if it was even legal for the gay new hire to work with children. I literally laughed in her face before I caught myself. She was really young (18) and we live in this conservative bubble.
        All this to say, all of us can exist in our own “bubble” and if we find ourselves thinking we could never work with someone who has different beliefs than we do, it might be a good idea to see if that’s what happening

      2. short_stop*

        Let’s say a company hires a fundamental Muslim man who doesn’t shake hands with anyone because he doesn’t want to be seen as prejudiced towards the women in the office who he refuses to touch at all. Can I, as a woman, be opposed to working with him because I only want to work with coworkers who view me as an equal?
        No evidence that he doesn’t view you as an equal, and no discrimination either. Objecting would probably be discriminatory on the grounds of religion.

        Or what if a company hires a fundamental Christian who won’t talk to women one on one. Can I be opposed to working with him for the same reason? Note that this isn’t about the practicalities of maybe needing to work with coworkers one on one, but the simple situation of working with someone who does not view me as an equal.
        Evidence of discrimination which I would expect to be addressed and rectified. If he changes his approach I don’t think you could legit oppose working with him, but I wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt on other gender-related discrimination.

        Or what if a company hired a fundamental Jew. Can I as a vegetarian be opposed to working with him due to that religion’s treatment of animals?
        I think it’s really difficult to imagine a scenario in which there is an actual problem because of the food someone eats that can only be addressed by not working with them. In the UK the vegetarian’s stance could be discriminatory on the grounds of both religion and race.

    11. Morticia*

      I think it’s okay to refuse to shake everyone’s hand. My last boss would still shake the men’s hands.

    12. Mainely Professional*

      “Fundamental” is not a adjective which describes any person. You mean “fundamentalist” and that still does not describe a specific religion/practice/sect of Islam or Judaism. There are Christian and Mormon fundamentalists, and several churches/and interdenominational organizations that use “fundamental” in their name, but in any case someone who belonged to such a group would be a “fundamentalist X [Methodist/Baptist/Whatever].”

      I guarantee you work with someone whose views are severely different than your own on some topic already. Try to respect that rather than avoid it.

      So, I guess this atheist suggests that you take the plank out of your own eye before trying to remove the mote from your fellow man’s.

    13. I'm A Little Teapot*

      On my team, right now, includes a vegetarian (no chicken/beef/fish), a vegan, and someone who eats a LOT of meat. We also have a devout Muslim, at least one atheist, and a devout Catholic. There’s also someone who I know is not-straight, and someone who I strong suspect is poly. Plus a mix of “normal” everything else.

      Day to day work interactions? You wouldn’t know any of this. The key is that people treat others with respect across the board, regardless of their personal or religious beliefs. That goes both ways. As long as you’re being treated as an equal, it doesn’t matter what’s in their heads. If however you’re allowing yourself to be weirded out by what you presume is in other people’s heads and it’s impacting how you treat them, then you’re actually the problem.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This. You’re at work to work, not become BFFs or marry these people.

        I was living in an area where some people literally think yoga is full of demons, and I still managed to work with them because they kept it out of the office. I knew they belonged to X church but it didn’t have anything to do with our day-to-day.

    14. Jules the 3rd*

      As long as their *behavior* does not single out a protected class, you do not have the right to object to their beliefs or views, or their legal behavior outside of work. So a Muslim who touches no one? Fine, he’s doing his thing, you do yours. And you’re *assuming* that ‘can’t touch / be one on one with because my religion’s rules say so’ = ‘thinks of me as not equal’, which may not be true, and certainly is not restricted to people with certain religious beliefs.

      The -isms are so common and entrenched that companies should build in structural checks for fighting them (ie, wage bands, salary analyses, effective and safe complaint paths) rather than count on individuals knowing and effectively fighting their biases. But we can only object and fight the behaviors, people should not be coerced through their employment into needing to change the insides of their heads.

      Outside of work, when there is no economic coercion, it’s ok to debate, discuss, try to change hearts and minds, etc, but work is not an appropriate place for it. You are not (usually) employed to drive social change.

    15. I Rell Vatch*

      It is dangerous to judge a person on only one aspect of their identity. Whether you are looking at race, sexuality, religion, marital status, age, or any of the other myriad ways we differ from each other, this is a significant step toward developing bigotry in ourselves. It is internally refusing to except another’s personhood and makes it much easier to justify bigoted actions.

      It is hard to treat others better than they treat us. It requires a significant amount of emotional maturity and self-confidence. It has been my experience, though, that as I do so, I increase my own self confidence and maturity; working to recognize another’s personhood, and striving to treat them with kindness and patience, has been a vital aspect of my personal development. Continually reminding myself that the person I am interacting with has much more to who they are than the part of them I do not like – that they have their fears and dreams, just as I do – that they love their families, just as I do – that they want to be loved in return, just as I do – gets easier as I have practiced doing this.

      This doesn’t mean that I accept people treating me badly. In fact, I have found it gives me the courage to set boundaries and assert my own personhood.

      I also firmly believe that doing this allows me to be a positive influence on the people I interact with. By modeling kindness and patience I encourage the same in the people around me by making it easier for them to feel safe. Harsh judgement makes people defensive and entrenches them in their positions. Positive interaction, however, has the potential to encourage them to change their minds. I am helping them to recognize my own personhood, when I recognize theirs.

    16. LKW*

      “I just don’t want to work with people who have views so severely different than mine.”

      This is a highly intolerant statement. You’ve painted examples of people who are respectfully managing their religious observations in a secular world.

      If you are a vegan, would you have trouble working with an avid hunter who eats or distributes the meat from their kills? How do you know the Muslim man doesn’t have severe arthritis and that’s the reason he doesn’t shake hands with anyone? I don’t see how a vegan would find kosher butchery any less distasteful than industry butchery.

      In short the intolerance is actually coming from you – not the examples of religion based behavior you’ve provided. If I had someone ask me to move them based on the examples you’ve given, I would be alerting HR to keep a close eye on them and I’d worry that they were bringing their intolerance and bigotries into the office.

    17. Qwerty*

      How would an employer react to religious discrimination? Hopefully by shutting it down very strongly.

      All of your examples are about refusing to work with with someone because of their religion. Two thirds of them take sex/gender into account. You reference “cultural groups” as the source of potential examples you could name, which leans strongly towards taking race/ethnicity into account. You really need to take a step by and examine why your bigotry should be considered superior and acceptable. You seem to feel strongly about being treated as an equal, but by placing a stronger emphasis your own moral views, you are essentially saying that you do not view others as equals.

      The actions you are proposing could turn into a liability for your company on discrimination, harassment, hostile work environment, etc. If your employer kept you around, they would need to contain you. At the very least, you couldn’t manage anyone or be the gatekeeper of any resource, because they couldn’t trust you not let your views on religion/race/gender influence how you treat people. I’m really struggling to think of role they could keep someone like this in without fear that their biases would negatively impact their coworkers.

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        Thank you for putting what was wrong with the OP’s premise so eloquently!!

        Signed,
        A Discriminated-Against Muslim

      2. Flyleaf*

        Being upset at someone who discriminates against a co-worker because of their gender is bigotry? No. As someone else said, you don’t need to tolerant of someone else’s intolerance.

        1. LabTechNoMore*

          No, the problem is that there’s too broad of a brush being used here. The example above is equating “The Muslim doesn’t shake hands with anybody” with “The Muslim is being bigoted!”

          You don’t get to treat other religious or ethnic minorities badly, and using the pretext of “But their culture is sexist/homophobic/etc!” is just a means of trying to justify your own prejudicial views because you don’t seem comfortable around people from those cultures.

          If an individual treats you differently because of your gender, come down on them like a ton of bricks, but being from a different culture has no bearing on that assessment. Or rather, you cannot make that assessment based on the race/religion of the individual because then you’re not being pro-gender equality, you’re being anti-Muslim/anti-Jew etc.

          1. Flyleaf*

            No you can’t treat them differently because of their religious beliefs. But if their religion is why they treat you differently, then yes they deserve to be called out. If a coworker refuses to meet with a woman because of his religious beliefs, that is a problem.

        2. Avasarala*

          And how is the Jew in OP’s example discriminating against anyone? By sitting there while Jewish?

          A person who practices their religion and acts kindly, fairly, and professionally in the workplace is not being intolerant.

          1. Flyleaf*

            Since the example of the Jewish coworker didn’t involve any behavior directed at the OP, then the OP wouldn’t have any business being upset.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      Not sure where you are in the world, but the difference between religious freedoms and moral standings is that religious freedoms are still protected classes. I mean, I really do get where you’re coming from. It can be frustrating as hell. And we aren’t living in the atheist socialist starship of the future. We have to interact with people who are different from us, lest we start living in our own bubbles. Given your letter, and with as much compassion as I can muster on a Friday morning, I would suggest being prepared for a few scenarios.
      1- Self-employment
      2- Compromise
      3- Disappointment.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Indeed, an atheist socialist starship of the future is going to get emptied out real quick if dissent = a quick trip out the airlock.

    20. ThursdaysGeek*

      I listened to an interesting comment from Ravi Zacharias about the source of our moral authority. He said cultures usually have one of three – the authority comes from God (he’s Christian, so that’s where he’s coming from) and that is a theocracy. We don’t live in that culture. Another one is where the authority comes from the government, and I can’t recall what he called it, but we don’t have that either. The third was autocracy, where we each decide our own moral authority. And that does describe American culture.

      In that case, why does your moral authority have precedence over someone else’s? You get to decide for yourself, but they have the rights to decide for their selves too, and since neither the state nor a god has more authority, we have to allow each other their place. You’re trying to place your moral authority over other people.

    21. Ramona Q*

      Jewish atheist feminist here. This statement? “I just don’t want to work with people who have views so severely different than mine when those views are opposite to my core being.” Given how weirdly your examples don’t show the people involved behaving badly or mistreating you at all, that would make me much more worried about YOU and how you’d treat me than how these men would.

    22. cmcinnyc*

      Live and work in NYC and you’ll come across all these hypotheticals and more. The vast majority of people self-select their working environment based on what they can/cannot deal with. To use an absurd example, vegans don’t apply for a job at the butcher shop. I work with people who have religious accommodations (like leaving before sundown on Sabbath), and I probably work with plenty of people who don’t work on Sunday but it’s not a standard workday at my office so that’s invisible (and used to be a religious accommodation and now is just The Way It Is). Bottom line every person at this office is expected to treat everyone with professional courtesy and respect. You are not required to like anyone nor agree with anyone, just get along and get the job done. We also have pretty strong boundaries around talking politics or religion (or diet!) at work. If you truly care about only working with people who share your core values, you probably need to work at a nonprofit focused tightly on your issues or for your own church (if you have one). If you’re ok working with a wide range of people, treating them with courtesy and respect, and being treated that way in return, the world is pretty wide. Notwithstanding the awesomely dysfunctional workplaces sometimes featured on this site!

    23. LilySparrow*

      As an employee, you are perfectly at liberty to make these type of stands if you want to, at least in the US, because we protect freedom of thought.

      An employer is not legally allowed to “accommodate” your personal rules by discriminating against religious or ethnic groups. So you’d basically be making yourself unemployable by any organization that isn’t already shady and bigoted.

      Your (former) coworkers and others who know you would also be perfectly at liberty to draw conclusions about your beliefs and character, based on your stated desire to avoid being around or working with Jews and Muslims.

      You may cite feminism or veganism as underlying reasons, but the reasons don’t really matter in the outcome. The road of stereotyping and intolerance does not lead toward equality, nonviolence, and ethical living. It’s a well-established highway in the opposite direction.

    24. CM*

      I feel like this is kind of a science fiction question. In real life, when your coworkers are bigoted and don’t acknowledge your humanity, that usually shows up in their behaviour — and, in that case, you would have grounds to object to their behaviour without needing to argue with them about their beliefs.

      In a hypothetical scenario where somehow you KNOW that they hate you, but they never say so or treat you any differently than they treat people they don’t hate… I guess they’re being pretty professional about it? Being hated without any ACTION taken toward you as result of that hate — not even a microaggression or a snide comment — is the nicest way to be hated by far, and I’d prefer it to the kinds of hate I’ve generally seen.

  24. Boss 2021*

    I have been asked to consider taking over our little unit next year when my boss retires. I’d love some advice from you!

    I need to show the senior leadership that I am ready for the responsibility: any advice on how to step up and show that I can run a team?

    I also need to start recruiting a person to replace me when I take my boss’ role. Should I recruit someone more junior and train the person? Or is it a better use of my time to recruit someone more senior who can pull off a heavier workload?

    What is your best advice to a new manager? Any useful tips and tricks?

    1. Sara(h)*

      As for your first question, my best advice would be to ask your boss or another trusted senior colleague if they have suggestions for how you can step up and demonstrate you’re ready for the responsibility.
      As for recruiting a person to replace you, that seems premature when you’re not yet certain you’ll be taking over your boss’s role, so I would recommend tabling that until further notice, unless you’ve been specifically instructed to do so at this early juncture. Again, I think your boss or other senior colleagues would be the best people to advise you. It’s difficult to give advice about this without knowing your industry, office culture, etc. Good luck!

      1. Boss 2021*

        We are recruiting a new person, and i have a say in who that person should be. Either i recommend that we go for a junior person (no competition to me) or a more experienced person (who might be competition but will also reduce my work load). I am leaning towards the latter.

        1. Derjungerludendorff*

          To be honest, I think that whether they are “competition” or not shouldn’t even be crossing anyone’s mind in a healthy organization. You would literally be undermining your team for your personal gain and advancement.

          If I found out my manager or colleague was doing that, my opinion of them would drop massively. And I certainly wouldn’t want them in any position of power or responsibility.

          1. Nesprin*

            Yep- if you’re worried someone new off the street is going to be competition, instead of your new collaborator, bringing new skills and expertise I’d be worried if you’re ready to lead a team.

        2. Clisby*

          You should be trying to recruit the best person possible (given, of course, what pay and benefits you can offer.)

    2. Cynthia*

      “I need to show the senior leadership that I am ready for the responsibility: any advice on how to step up and show that I can run a team?” Start doing it. Ask your boss what responsibilities you can take over, have a list in mind, and ask. That’s how I got my promotion. The boss’ boss needed to see me take the lead. Try and find a mentor/guide, someone with your boss’s type position either at your company or one similar that you can have a monthly phone call and/or lunch with. Depends on industry and how big the company is for whether internal or external.

    3. HM MM*

      For showing leadership – I think there is a bit of a line that you’ll need to walk carefully here. You want to step up, but you also don’t want to overstep (before the boss retires/your promotion is official) because you don’t want to alienate your current colleagues/potential reports. I think there was a letter recently where the LW spoke to their direct report about a potential promotion, but then they started acting like it was official and bossing people around.

      So I think the key is keeping a very open line of communication the boss. Volunteer for any opportunity you see and if you have any ideas of tasks/responsibilities you could start taking off of the boss’s plate throw them out there to the boss. Just don’t go rogue and start doing them without communicating it to the boss. It might go over better if the boss is the one to communicate any changes in responsibilities to the rest of the team (at least at first).

      For the jr vs experienced new hire – I’d think really long and hard about how good you are at training. Have you trained people before? Did you enjoy it? Was it successful? Were/are you able to adapt and be flexible? You mention that you’ll be new to management, if you also haven’t done a lot of hands on training with others then it might not be a good idea to set yourself up with two new things to be experiencing. I had a manager once for whom I was their first direct report ever. I was being promoted into her former role, but it was understood by all that I had no experience in this type of role (she didn’t either when she started, but over the course of a couple of years she slowly took on more and more). So she had to learn how to manage and train me from scratch and it was a complete disaster. She was incredibly overwhelmed (she also received no training or support from her manager). I couldn’t handle it (I know she meant well, but I was miserable working for someone who was so overwhelmed and then was lashing out at me) so I left within a year and she eventually had her management responsibilities taken away. The thing is, I think she might have had more success if she had either only been tasked with training me, but not managing me (at least at first, maybe that’s something that could have happened down the line) or if they hired someone else with some experience or familiarity so that she wasn’t also training someone from scratch.

      If you’re confident in your training skills then hiring a more junior person could be a good way to show you’re ready to lead/manage people – I’d just be cautious. A lot of people aren’t great at training, and that’s totally ok! Doesn’t mean that you can’t tackle that in future direct reports, but I’d just think hard about whether that’s something you’re in a place to take on right now (in addition to the new management responsibilities that will probably be coming your way).

  25. My Utmost Best*

    I have drafted many posts about a coworker who has been trying to micromanage me. Never posted them because they were venting rather than asking for advice and just typing my complaints out helped but I don’t need to do that any more because mid-December she started on another team!
    On her last day with us she still managed to make one of her signature comments (asking if I was leaving for my gym class during work hours because I have an important meeting to attend – um, why would I do that?) but other than that I just wished her the best of luck in her new position. It will be a much better fit for her (social) skills and I won’t have someone going through my meeting notes and adding comments to them without knowing the context or quizzing me on my own assignments.

    2. Derjungerludendorff*

      Congrats!
      That person sounds exhausting to work with, and I’m glad you don’t have to deal with that anymore!

  26. Dramadeus Mozart*

    My partner works at a company with unclear hierarchy and decision processes.

    His boss, Jane, is a contractor whose contract ends soon. His grand boss, Paul, would like to replace Jane (who has a history of bullying staff) and has put out an add for a manager position that Jane considers too junior for her, she wants senior director.

    Jane was offered the manager position but said she would rather quit her contract. Jane was then offered to prolong her contract till spring and give Paul more time to find a solution.

    Paul has asked my partner to apply for the open manager position, which he would love to do.

    Jane found out that Paul has asked my partner to apply and is now trying to get Paul to change the add to sr dir, or else… she has friends in the c-team and they are pressuring Paul to make Jane happy.

    She is also coming after my partner and telling everyone, behind his back, that he is a traitor and they should not speak with him. (It’s so sad because they used to be really good friends)

    How should my partner handle this? Jane has already begun to turn the rest of the team against both Paul and my partner. He would like to apply, but is unsure about the dynamics of he does and she still stays in her contract.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      IMO your partner should handle this by looking for work at a different company. That one sounds bad all around—not just Jane but the c-suite protecting Jane while she bullies your partner. If he’s being invited to apply for management jobs there, he can look for some elsewhere too.

      1. Boss 2021*

        Most of the c-suite see her as a forceful leader. The fact that they have had to pay their way out of 3 lawsuits due to bullying from jane’s side, is only raising concerns with some of the c-suite. Paul is one of those who want to get rid of Jane.
        But she seems to be politically savvy and seems to be winning this battle…

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          This is only intensifying my “run awaaaaaaaay” advice. They’d rather pay off three lawsuits than fire one bully? Get out now.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Partner should do his best to stay out of the drama while taking the actions that are good for him.
      1) Since partner wants the job, partner should apply. And soon, because ‘I have this great candidate!’ gives Paul ammo too.
      2) Jane’s going to Jane no matter what, your partner is now on her target list. Partner will need to strengthen ties to office mates, without making them targets. Can he quietly invite 1 – 2 people out for happy hours, 1 – 2 times / week? Ask them about professional dreams, current problems, lives… Yes, it’s a big time investment, but if he ends up as manager, it’ll be huge.
      3) For all interactions with Jane, information diet and non-reaction. Whatever she says, he gives a small smile, ‘oh, really? hmmm.’ or ‘how interesting!’ and if applicable, changes the subject to a work topic. Do not discuss anything with her that’s personal or even non-work, except maybe the weather. No politics or local events or *anything*. Work only, and only work she needs to know about.

      I mean, *lawsuits* and she’s still got c-suite supporters? Good luck to Paul and your partner…

    3. I Love Llamas*

      Wow, that’s ugly. Perhaps your partner should tell Paul that until the job title and description are finalized, he is going to sit on the sidelines. He can still express his interest in moving up, but that it sounds like there are some things that need to be finalized before he can decide if he wants to apply. That might be the gracious way to side step the issue. It also gives him time to polish his resume….

    4. CM*

      Bottom line, if your partner wants this job, he should apply for it.

      I’d also recommend not making too many assumptions about how the drama is playing out in the c-suite. Unless Partner has inside sources who are giving him a play-by-play — and even if he does — there could be a lot going on that he isn’t hearing about — so don’t make a decision based on that.

      I think the feared scenario is that Partner applies and then they give the job to Jane with a new title and he has to keep working for her, but now she hates him. In that case, the solution is to blame Paul by saying, “Paul asked me to apply, and I’m not going to say no to a promotion.” 9/10, Jane will understand that, and Paul is more insulated from her outbursts.

  27. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    My job search is going badly. The internal position I had a phone interview for was filled (I have no idea what that was about) and I bombed the interview for an external position. I think I’ll take a break and restart on January 1st

    1. My Utmost Best*

      If you can afford to take a break, I would recommend to do that. It’s important that your job search doesn’t consume you. I’m sorry it isn’t going the way you want it.
      I was job searching throughout the summer after moving. I had holidays scheduled and continued to work on applications through the first week. It was a terrible idea because I didn’t relax and rest (goal of the holiday) and felt guilty about not having a job AND not being ‘present’ and focusing on our lovely family time. I could afford to take a break, and here I am, in a well-paid job I love since October.
      Use these two weeks until the next year to take some time off from your job search and just enjoy the holidays/the weather/Netflix or whatever applies to your situation.
      (If you’re celebrating on the 31st, I think you can still take the 1st off and restart your search once you’re well-rested.)
      Best of luck!

    2. Derjungerludendorff*

      Taking a break sounds like a good idea.
      Job searching can be emotionally exhausting. If you’re already struggeling with interviews, then pushing yourself during a busy time of year isn’t going to help you.

  28. Roller*

    I’ve been wondering if anyone else has a similar experience to me, the opposite of the ‘when I quit they posted my exact job for $xxx more than I was being paid’ situation.

    I was inherited by my boss and I got a few ‘ha ha you will never leave as we pay you so well’ comments. I get paid pretty much market rate and said this in response.

    When I was job searching I got a job very quickly for the same pay but with much better benefits, to current boss’ surprise.

    What I found a bit insulting was when trying to find my replacement the range was between half to two thirds of my current market rate pay. Made me glad I was leaving as I didn’t feel valued at that point. Predictably they couldn’t find anyone who would work for that money for the role.

    Has anyone else had something like this happen?

    1. Batgirl*

      I have and I think two things happen to create this phenomenon. One is that poor managers plan optimistically rather than with critical research, so they give out a standard or low figure when recruiting. Then, when they catch someone good with that figure, their optimism of ‘this is a good rate’ becomes cemented.
      However dismissive they might be of being told otherwise, they are forced to concede when said employee is able to do better. The final proof is when they take a second look at the research of what other people get, or they simply can’t even get resumes from someone as good as you when offering the same pay (this is especially common if you’ve grown the role).
      It’s actually a victory in terms of getting your point across. Alas, leaving is often the best way to do that.

    2. Batgirl*

      And… I’ve misunderstood that your story is ‘the opposite’.
      My point still stands but they’re still in the stage before they are forced to concede.
      They won’t offer anything they aren’t forced to, because they come up with all sorts of justifications why people should be thrilled to be underpaid.
      They just mistake an optimistic budget for research and probably count ‘experience and exposure’ as payment.
      I’m sure there’s plenty wrong with their management.

    3. Cynthia*

      Why would you personally feel insulted? It had nothing to do with you, they just saw it as a a way to get a newer/greener person for less money. Congrats on the new job!

      1. Roller*

        I suppose it is the idea that your worth to the company is tied into what you are paid, however right or wrong that is to think. We always got along well but to know that she valued the role I had built up, and therefore me, at much less stung a bit!

        1. londonedit*

          I don’t think it has anything to do with your worth, though. It’s nothing to do with the work you’ve done, it’s the company wanting to save money. They’re looking at this as an opportunity to hire someone for less money. That sucks for the person coming in, and it proves that they’re mean when it comes to salaries, but I’ve worked for a few companies where they’ve replaced (or tried to replace) someone who’s leaving with someone at a lower level (say, an editor leaves and instead of hiring an editor or senior editor they hire an assistant editor instead). It’s because they can pay that person less while probably asking them to do broadly the same job as their predecessor.

        2. Batgirl*

          I think you’d get better validation from fortune cookies which at least stand an accidental chance of being right.

          Your boss has terrible judgement and their professionalism is even worse.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        It may actually be a compliment. They think the OP did such a good job and set so many processes in place that they can hire a less experiences employee to keep things running.

    4. Fikly*

      I think you’ve been proved right, though! They tried to fill your shoes for less, and clearly they couldn’t!

    5. BRR*

      I was laid off earlier this year and I know part of the reason was I was paid more than they thought I was worth. I wouldn’t be surprised if they listed my role at a lower level with the same expectations. Unfortunately for my situation and I’m guessing your’s as well is that it is difficult to prove that you’re undervalued.

    6. epi*

      My old boss was like this. My old company was underpaying people in my role so badly, the organization eventually redid their salary survey early because turnover was out of control. It resulted in entire categories of people in my role being moved up 1-3 salary bands.

      However, it was a decentralized role and my immediate supervisor in my department really did not even understand why it was needed. Although my counterpart and I in our department did receive raises, we were still underpaid because he was keeping us at an inappropriately low step on the ladder. He couldn’t be convinced that anything someone in our role did could ever merit moving up. Really, he couldn’t be convinced that there was a market for anyone’s job, anywhere, at all. And that therefore it was only right for him to pay peanuts in a major US city.

      I left to become an epidemiologist and my colleague left for medical school. This guy’s delusion was so severe, when my colleague gave her notice he asked her if she was confident she would get a job that way.

      I really think it was some personal dysfunction of his, combined with greed and wanting to keep more of the unit budget for himself. My boss had multiple degrees in musical performance, couldn’t make a living that way, got an MBA instead, and couldn’t find permanent work that way either until the position he held as my boss which he was never able to be promoted out of. In his mind, all career paths were risky and down to luck, because his was.

    7. Past my last straw*

      My company’s trying to do that right now with my former supervisor’s position. Responsibilities are full-fledged manager level, and they’re getting great applicants who turn them down as soon as salary comes up. It’s getting a little too Lean here folks…

  29. Taking The Long Way Round*

    A member of our team, Roberta, is falling behind on deadlines, missing reports and targets, and generally lowering the quality of the team’s output. This is noticeable both within the organisation I work for, and also with external clients who’ve had queries we couldn’t answer because Roberta hasn’t completed what she is meant to.

    At first, we all offered to help, and some have managed to do quite a bit for her, in an attempt to help her get on top of things. This didn’t seem to make a difference though as she was soon back to lagging behind. We’ve all taken the view now that we can’t help anymore because it’s impacting our own workload.

    Unfortunately, our boss is avoidant and will not manage Roberta’s performance. Instead, he is insisting that we share the work load equally and do some of Roberta’s work on top of our own to help her out (again…we have done this to no avail, but also math fail – how is it ‘sharing it equally’ if the people who work the hardest get given more work to do?) It honestly feels like being penalised for being good at your job.

    His logic is that, this way the team’s quality will improve overall because it’s a team effort. Um, no. Roberta is lazy and so is our boss for passing the buck. Right?

    We’ve all told our boss how we feel, but it’s fallen on deaf ears.
    If anyone has any ideas that don’t involve leaving the place I’d love to hear them, but sadly I think looking for another job might be the way to go.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      Maybe you should ask your boss which of your own tasks you should not do in order to do Roberta’s work.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      You’ve all told your boss, but have you gone to him in a group? The other option is start being unable to do all the work, and explain ‘I’m prioritizing A, B, C because D, E are from Roberta’.

    4. Long Time Lurker*

      Slow down your work so that you can only do your job in the amount of time you have. Don’t commit to doing her work “I’m so busy! I’ll check in when I have time to help.” Followed by “Sorry I haven’t had a free moment to help.”

  30. Lrrr of Omicron Persei 8*

    I’m not sure how to navigate this (or if there’s even a reason to do so). Long story short, I have a remote side job that helps with adding content to a community forum, like Reddit, and each sub-group has control over their site appearance, rules, individual admins, etc. I’m an active admin for one group, Teapot Spouts, and should also note the reason I even got the side job was because of all the volunteer work and design overhaul I did for my group for about 2 years, so I have a pretty good grasp on the ins and outs. Well, a couple years before I started to edit, it was run by someone else, Mary (who’s about 20 years older than me). However, due to having some issues with changes to the whole community, Mary left 4 years ago and joined a competitor and started a Teapot Spout group there. Fast forward to now, and Mary’s company was bought by the first and is now back under the umbrella, though she’s been hired as one of their leads for the second company (but we’re essentially coworkers and stay to our respective groups). To add salt to the wounds though, while they haven’t shut down Mary’s group, it’s clear the combined company wants to use the original one I’m in to be the go to group for Teapot Spouts and it’s clear Mary doesn’t care for this and tried to push that her group could do it instead (by this point I was brought in to confirm my group would handle it).

    I also got the feeling Mary was acting like a runaway parent who returns years later and wonders why their kids don’t act like them: when a rather crazy idea was floated to me by another sraff member, I was excited and onboard, noting I had tried to implement something similar before but lacked certain skills to complete it, while Mary immediately dismissed it, going “well, I never saw anything on this site that could do that” (loose forns have been done on other sub-groups for the first company). Shortly after, she tried to attack the wording for one section on my group over a slight difference to which I explained why it was like that originally (is an old reference to something else that will be updated once we get the clear from staff looking into it). She’s been silent since, but so far these first few interactions I’m having with her are not boding well and if possible I’d like to cut off any future conversations that start to steer into the “well, this is how I did it 4 years ago” when a lot has obviously changed since she left.

    1. Marthooh*

      You can’t prevent Mary from making comments, but if you give her a generic answer every time (“Don’t worry, the Teapot Spouts subgroup has it handled!”) instead of replying to the specific criticism, she’ll get tired of it all sooner. It sounds like the company has your back here, so just make it boring for Mary to try to do your job for you.

      1. Lrrr of Omicron Persei 8*

        Thanks! Sometimes I forget a very bland response is a quick way to shut it down. I’ll do that next time if she tries it again :)

    2. LKW*

      Another tactic is to outline the options and pros/cons. It’s a little work on your plate but if you consistently show that you are open to ideas and are being transparent and non-judgmental with your pro/con assessment, you come across as thoughtful and mature. It can’t be done for everything, like wording, but sometimes just showing people that they’re taking on more work for no benefit is eye opening.

  31. Batgirl*

    Why does calling in sick make you feel so guilty? I think the set up of calling in is so unnecessary.
    I woke up with a high temperature on Monday but by Wednesday I had a normal temperature, felt OK and decided to go in. Everything was going swimmingly for an hour or so, until I began to see spots and realised I had passed out in my classroom. I freaked out the small exam group I was invigilating but luckily it was only a few seconds until I came to. I had to take a cab home and I vowed to be a lot more careful of myself before coming back in.
    Thing is… at my work you have to call in to a grandboss every single day. On the Thursday my grandboss sounded annoyed because my line manager never told him I’d gone home: ‘who covered you that afternoon?’
    “I don’t know, I was asleep and shivering under two blankets!” I wanted to say.
    “You’re going to need a doctor’s note if you’re still unwell Friday, and to avoid calling in over the holidays it should cover the two weeks we are off as well”
    So I went the doctors, who thinks it’s ridiculous I need a note for when the school is closed. “You can have one for this week and if they need more they can call themselves and ask.
    “You can self certify. Anything more is a burden on the NHS”.
    I was really hoping to be well enough to go in for today, the last day just to avoid the palaver. Last night I felt pretty good.
    This morning I feel awful again and have called in. At least I was given the option of updating via email on Monday.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’m trying to get better at not feeling guilty for calling in sick. It’s just so hard to feel like you’re letting people down and making them do extra work. But what helps me is remembering that I don’t get angry when my colleagues are sick and I have to help cover for them. It might not always be convenient for me to take the extra work, but I don’t feel angry at the sick person because of it. So, take the way you react when your coworkers are sick and try to extend that same feeling to yourself.

      Also, your work’s call out system is awful!

    4. Jemima Bond*

      Re the guilt; think back to the last time you picked up the phone to someone calling in sick, maybe asking you to let their manager know. Did you assume they were faking it or malingering? Did you judge them for taking the day off? Did you gossip to all your colleagues about how Wakeen is a waster? I bet you didn’t. I bet you said “oh poor you, I hope you feel better soon, get some rest” and maybe added some kindly meant advice about drinking lots of water or having some honey and lemon. And then maybe you emailed someone or put it on the team calendar that Wakeen won’t be in today because he’s ill.
      Point being, people probably aren’t thinking your sickness isn’t legit, any more than you are thinking that about them.

  32. SApro*

    Today is my last day in the office!!!!
    I accepted a new position after feeling so slighted by my supervisor. I can tell she does not even care I am leaving so abruptly. There is a part of me that wished she did. When/why are work environments so anti-emtions and anti -empathy. (I work in higher ed. We teach these values in our students all the time. )

  33. Cherry Sours*

    Hello, and season’s greetings to everyone here.

    I have worked at my current position for 15 years, and I am reaching the point of burnout.
    Looks like the perfect time for a career change; fortunate that I have the ability to pay for school, have three colleges nearby, and my primary field of interest is much in demand and pays triple my current salary.

    The problem? I will be in my late 50’s when I graduate. Although I realize it is illegal to discriminate based on age, should I expect to have an extended search job search? Tips. hints and success stories are all welcome, as well as the pitfalls others have encountered…Bring them on!

    1. StellaBella*

      Some ideas …. referring to the statement that skills are in demand …. can you reach out now to a few of these firms that need these skills and ask them a few questions (maybe based on their open positions in the field that you see on their website): In the role of llama groomer, you are asking for brushing skills, and shearing skills. If I was enrolled at the local college for these skills, and wished to work for your firm after the courses finished, would the courses I plan to take be sufficient for your firm? Are there career days your firms has so I can ask about these courses and skills needed?….

      Do some glassdoor research etc – what kinds of skills do they need, specifically, and what are the interviews like for those roles – then work that into your college program. Also, can you consider part time college and part time volunteering doing said practical skills to boost your resume to tailor it to these skills more, and get a reference from the volunteer place too?

      I am over 50. Keep skills current especially in tech is really important. Join societies too that will help with networking for these skills and roles. Go to Meetups as well in the field to meet people and ask questions. Good luck!

      1. Cherry Sours*

        Thank you for your response, especially regarding career day, volunteer work & references from same. I currently work in healthcare; think nurse’s aide, and looking to earn an associate’s degree in physical therapy.

        I plan to reach out to my occupational therapist from a few years back…not the exact field, but similar enough that she might have some great input.

        No illusions here that I will be starting near the top of the payscale, or even in the middle. Fully aware that like all new-to-the-field employees, I will initially be paid towards the bottom of the scale, and I’m okay with that knowledge.

        Joining a professional organization is a great idea, as is volunteering. I certainly plan to do both. Would you suggest these be done at the beginning of my training, or about a year into the 2 year degree?

    2. Lyudie*

      Are you able to work and go to school? I know this will drag out your school but doing each part time will keep your foot in the door so to speak. Or maybe volunteering in the field a few hours a week? I don’t know what your new field is but a lot of programs are available partly or wholly online these days (my husband and I are both in the middle of master’s programs online, he has to go on campus for exams but mine is 100% online. I don’t even have a student ID lol). And depending on the field you might be able to get a job in the new field before you complete school (I did, I had only taken a handful of courses online before I was able to move into a new role at my company, but there are a lot of transferable skills between my first and second careers so that might not apply to you…let’s say I moved from teapot lid design to teapot handle design, if you are going from llama grooming to teapot design that might be harder).

      Good luck!!! You can totally do it :)

      1. Cherry Sours*

        I could potentially work & attend classes at the same time, but would prefer to give school my full attention. I will be departing work on good terms and with excellent references, and eligible for rehire. Could certainly stay on prn, and/or work during summer.

        I’ve done a bit of research and at this point it does not seem possible to take these classes online, but will explore the option further.

        Thanks for being my cheerleader, looking forward to upward mobility.

    3. short_stop*

      Do you know anyone in your new field? I’d start chatting to people and getting their take on whether age discrimination is rife or not much of a thing.

      Also, do you really need to go back to school? Obviously it depends on the field but while an additional qualification can be a really good route to switching careers, in others transferable skills and a bit of luck might be enough.

    4. LKW*

      I think the biggest challenge is whether or not your salary expectations align to your industry experience. The figure you noted, triple current salary is that for someone with the number of years of experience in this industry or is that an entry level salary?

      Ultimately your cover letter and interviews should help set & reinforce your enthusiasm but also expectations and ensure alignment with hiring managers. Some companies are not interested in experienced employees and want to grow all of their new hires, some have learned that experience hires bring a lot of perspective and value.

      We’ve all heard stories of people who had 15-20 years in one industry but 0 years in another industry but expected to be paid at their ex-industry level. There are some cases where it makes sense, if they have the same role but different industry. But if you’re leaving your position as Director of Teapot Sales to entry-level Llama groomer – you can’t expect Director Llama Groomer salary.

      1. Cherry Sours*

        I do not know anybody in the field, but will be seeking out my occupational therapist for a head’s up into my similar field. I have spoken with a friend in another branch of medicine, and at least where she is employed, age is not an issue.

        Yes, I feel school is a necessity at this point. I used to love my current position, the residents, my coworkers, but now the satisfaction is no longer there; I’m just going through the paces. I feel this is unfair to them and disheartening to me.

    5. irene adler*

      I’m over 50 and have experienced a fair amount of age discrimination. There aren’t any HR police so they can discriminate freely. They cover it up by saying you lack a skill or experience necessary for the job. They know how to finesse this so they won’t get into trouble.

      Keep tabs on the job market in the industry you plan to work in so when you graduate, you’ll know what employers are looking for.
      Draft the resume so that there’s no chance of them telling your age. Ditto for the LI page and other places they might look to find out your age. For example, leave off the early degree or work experience. Even if you just leave dates off, they will ask you for them. Have had plenty of HR people contact me, tell me how interested they are in interviewing me, then the first question is: when did you graduate from xx college? After I respond, that’s the end of the interview. Even if I demur and explain how my experience meets the job description, they simply repeat, “when did you graduate from XX college?” So don’t give them anything to latch onto that might reveal your age.

      Many times, I am asked about skills not listed on the job description. Then that becomes the reason for the rejection. Either I don’t have the skill, or I don’t have enough knowledge about the skill. AND, here’s the best part, the skill in question is essential for the job. Yet, it was not included on the job description? So be ready for questions about things not even remotely part of the job description that the interviewer suddenly deems -in the middle of the interview- to be vital to the position.

      Salary. They will ASSUME you want top dollar because you have years of experience (albeit in another industry). In fact, you may not even be called in to interview because of this. So address this one in the cover letter.

      Also, they will wonder why you want to ‘start over’ or why you want to change industries. Have a good response for these inquiries. If you were any type of manager in your former industry, they might be wary if you are not pursuing management positions. So have a convincing response for this type of inquiry.

      If you can join a professional organization in the industry you wish to work in, that might help get past the age thing. You’ll make contacts who can potentially get you ‘in the door’ by knowing about your skills and not dismiss you solely due to age. This can also lend itself to job leads before they are posted.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        Having a recent degree might actually help you with age discrimination if you leave off dates with earlier education.

    6. 867-5309*

      I echo the comment to keep your foot in the door by working or interning part-time while taking classes. We had a woman in her 40s or 50s who joined the global pr firm where I worked in a junior role. She also had a late career change and while it meant “starting over” in terms of salary and level, she was enthusiastic and we all liked working with her. It was no different than anyone else at that level.

      This might also be a good use-case for informational interviews before and while you’re attending school.

      Age discrimination is a legitimate problem but one that’s being talked about more openly, at least in my field of marketing.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Our law office is happy to have over-50s. There are no little children to go get from daycare and that age group doesn’t hesitate to stay an extra hour. No one shows up hungover, no one calls in sick one day and comes back much tanner the next. Everyone is mature and just gets on with it. There are one day classes if you’re rusty on a particular computer skill, but attitude is everything. The county bar has free brown bags to keep up with local rules, etc. and I would go to those if I were job hunting.

  34. April*

    I have a panel interview (government job) for a promotion next month. I’ve found out (because they told me) that two people that I sit on a Board with who work for other agencies will be on my panel. Theoretically I suppose it puts me at an advantage because they know me, but in reality it makes me more nervous because they know me. Any tricks/thoughts about this?

    1. StellaBella*

      There are some good links and resources here – search on panel interview tips, interviews with people you know, etc…. and you will see several great resources. Good luck!

    2. Middle Manager*

      I also work in government and have done panel interviews (both as the interviewer and the panelist). My best advice would be to be glad that you know them, because hopefully if you have a good reputation that will informally help you, but interview like you don’t know them. At least where I work, if the candidate doesn’t bring it up, we can’t consider it. So even if I know a person a work with has done amazing work on ABC Grant, if they don’t include that on their application or talk about it in the interview, we’re not supposed to consider it for hiring.

      I’ve had candidates say up front, and I’ve said up front too in the answer to the first board question (usually some variant of tell me about yourself and why you’re interested in this position) a disclaimer that I might be saying things they are aware of, but I want to discuss them in the context of how they will benefit me in the current position…

    3. Sophie Hatter*

      I was recently in an interview and one of the interviewers was an acquaintance of mine (she’s how I heard about the job). It actually made me much more comfortable/free to be myself, and I thought it was going to be awkward, but it wasn’t.

    4. Free Meercats*

      I’ve sat as an interviewer on those boards for multiple agencies – we assist each other quite a bit. What you don’t see as an interviewee is the discussion and instructions beforehand. This situation is directly addressed something like this, “If you know someone and feel you can’t objectively evaluate them, just note that at the top of your rating sheet and leave the rest blank; otherwise, proceed as normal.”
      The panelists knowing you will probably be neutral in the evaluation, as it should be.

  35. Erika22*

    Hi everyone!

    I’m in the classic dilemma of being (likely) to receive an offer either later today or Monday for Job A, but only having just done a first interview for Job B, which is the job I’d prefer. If I knew I wasn’t going to get Job B, I’d take Job A, but I’m worried about having to turn down Job A and then not get Job B.

    From an employers perspective, if I received an offer on Monday (23rd), is it unreasonable to ask until after the new year to give a response? Even though that’s over a week, I suspect most people on their end will be on holiday as well.

    The other thing is, I know Job B will still have more first round interviews to complete in the new year, so asking to give my response to Job A’s offer on Jan 2nd technically won’t help me with knowing if I’ll get an offer from Job B. I’ll be telling the recruiter for Job B that this is the case once I have an offer in hand, and see if there’s anything they can do, but any advice/commiseration from the commentariat would be lovely!

    1. StellaBella*

      If you get an offer from Company A today or Monday, can you ask them when they need an answer (and can you give one after say 5 or 6 Jan because you are traveling and it is the holidays)? And perhaps on 2 Jan check in with Company B about timelines? This gives a small buffer of a few days that may help? Otherwise no, this is difficult in general. Good luck tho!

    2. Batgirl*

      It’s not practically unreasonable because of the holiday period but you might be in danger of giving away a lack of enthusiasm. It’s a toss up on how that gets received: some bosses want you to weigh options others get offended they arent top pick.

      What is it that makes job B stand out so much for you? When my sister was in this situation recently she responded to the offer with “The work and career path is so exciting and just what I’m looking for but I am interviewing for a school based role where I’d work very family friendly hours. I am still very interested but can I have a weeks consideration while I discuss this with my partner?”

      They said they had flexi time etc and that she should consider it carefully.

    3. AAM superfan*

      Without knowing more about your situation, I can’t tell if this advice is helpful, but I will offer it anyway in case it is useful: I would accept the offer with Job A, but continue to pursue Job B. I don’t know if you can do that without Job B finding out, which could hurt your chances with B.

      But if your only concern is that you’re not being fair to Employer A, or you don’t want your resume to show such twitchy job-hopping, I would try to overcome those feelings. My suggestion offers you the greatest stability and opportunity. Your resume is yours to write, and if you get the dream job with B, you’ll look back contentedly at how you managed a challenging career maneuver. Good luck!

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        This seems unethical to me. If you accept job A, you’re committing to them. And depending on the field, a flake-out like ‘taking Job A then taking B a month later’ may get around. You would certainly completely lose any opportunities at Employer A.

        Erika22, are you desperate to get out of your current position? If not, turn down Job A. There will probably be more offers that you like as much as A later, if you don’t get Job B.

        The time frame’s too long for you to play a waiting game with A, if B’s going to be holding 1st round interviews in January.

        1. Avasarala*

          Agreed. How would you like it if you accepted their offer but the employer continued to interview other candidates, since Candidate A was really their first choice?

    4. 867-5309*

      Even with a Jan 2 Decisions, that’s 11 days. Holidays or not, as a hiring manager I would expect a candidate doesn’t need that long unless you’re a senior executive evaluating an especially complex employment offer.

      If Job B is still at first round interviews, it could be end of January or February before they have an answer.

      Alison covers this situation in the blog – it’s common. One thing I wouldn’t do is accept position A and then resign if you get the role with position B. You’ve burned a bridge within that company and the people who work there. What if they end up at a company you want to work for in the future?

  36. Em*

    I’m not sure where to start. I’m very very frustrated with my job. I love the actual content of the work and the field, but unfortunately, it’s a niche field. Upper management is unproductive and demoralizing. Our turn over is incredibly high. Communication is incredibly poor. I’m not quitting and will probably give it at least another year (I’m presenting at some conferences in this field next year).

    How do you stick it out? How do you cope?

    On the plus side, we’re having an equity study done and our department is being investigated. I’m getting less shy about reporting serious issues I have.

    To clarify, it’s a university job. The department chair sucks and I really haven’t known where to go above her. But now I do. Here’s hoping for changes.

    1. Taking The Long Way Round*

      How do you stick it out? How do you cope?

      – concentrate on what you like about it
      – let go of the stuff you cannot change
      – have a full and varied life outside of work
      – when you’re done for the day, leave your work at work.
      That’s what I do.

      1. Em*

        That’s helpful. It’s hard for me to have a life outside of work because I commute an hour each way and have very little energy. But I’m working on prioritizing that. I do need to work on my thinking of the positive aspects though! I’m really happy to have a job I find meaningful.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Find something to love on the commute – audio books, favorite songs, picking up a co-worker on the way, something. Also see if there’s a way to reduce it, because an hour’s a bear. If you can’t work from home, can you do a compressed work week?

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      I do the things TTLWR suggested.
      I also have been able to (mostly) do what AAM often suggests and detach myself and watch the drama as though it were a live action play happening right in front of me. In my head I am the Michael Jackson popcorn gif as I watch all the drama unfold.

    3. Holy Moley*

      Some things I have done to help make work more bearable when it sucks:
      -stress toys for my desk
      -listen to music/podcasts at work that cheer me up
      -make a bingo card for all the crazy/dumb things that happen at work and if I get a bingo in one day, treat myself to starbucks (center square is my boss reschedules a meeting she already had me reschedule)
      -look at work memes on my phone

      1. Em*

        I am absolutely going to make a bingo. I make work memes all the time.

        Funny podcasts do help!!

        I think it’s tough because it’s a field that can cause a lot of compassion fatigue. In addition to the huge work load, terrible management, etc.

  37. Ladybug*

    What’s a reasonable amount to spend on a work lunch with the company card? My manager asked me to take our new hire out for lunch on their first day because said manager was out of the office. I picked a sit down restaurant nearby. Our bill was $45. Manager advised me later that the price was too high and I should have picked a counter service place instead, as it would be cheaper. In my experience, the counter service places in that area would have probably cost us $30. The price difference seems negligible to me, especially in exchange for the impression it would have made on the new hire. What do you think? This is for a white collar, office type work environment so I definitely acknowledge the luxury already… just curious for others’ takes.

    1. Fikly*

      I think reasonable doesn’t matter, but your manager should have given you a budget before hand if it mattered that much.

    2. TableServicePlz*

      I think that capping a new hire lunch to $30, at least in my area, would seem penny wise and pound foolish. The whole point is to impress the new hire and get to know one another, and in all honesty, I just wouldn’t be that impressed by Panera and would find it difficult to carry on a meaningful work conversation in that environment.

      If your budget is really $30 (and not $45, which seems like a negligible difference for a large, white collar company), leadership should definitely make that clear, as it rules out just about everything but fast food around here (Panera would be tight–no fancy drinks!)

      At that point, just have some nice pastries in the break room that everyone can share/ congregate around? Arrange a couple of coffee chats for the new hire with some key team members?

      At my office, Panera or Chipotle is what you’d get for lunch in during a lunch meeting or something, not where you’d take a new hire on their first day.

    3. Lyudie*

      $45 for two people’s meals? That doesn’t seem so outrageous to me, and yes as a new hire I might side eye a company that will only take me to a counter service place as a “welcome to the team” lunch. And if it does matter that much, manager should have let you know beforehand that there are budget expectations.

    4. Rebecca*

      Is this just the one manager, or is the whole company culture like this? Like, do you need round up your own decent pens to write with, buy your own post it notes, and expenses like toilet paper, copier paper, toner, etc. are strictly scrutinized? I mean, if $15 is a budget breaker, maybe not do the lunch at all, just have coffee and donuts in the break room.

    5. Batgirl*

      Does your manager not know the area or do they just have poor judgement generally? Next time I’d say “Oh you mentioned going for counter service last time. Is Panera nice enough? Seems the best of the counter options round here”
      You never know, they might need that context to appreciate that spending more
      is actually better value.
      If they have terrible judgement then you’re either stuck with the counter environments, or possibly you can order in to the office if you have a nice space.

    6. ArtK*

      Does your company have an expense and entertainment policy? At a big company, stuff like that is likely written down. Next time, though, as what the budget is ahead of time since it seems that your boss is a penny-pincher.

      1. Indy Dem*

        This – most larger companies have this, and if your’s doesn’t, it should. FYI, my company lunch budget is up to $45 per person.

    7. Ladybug*

      Thanks for the perspectives, all! I cracked up at some of the responses.
      This was a rare arrangement for us, so I think we assumed we were both on the same page, budget-wise. Guess not. The company itself allows us autonomy and from what I’ve heard, other groups are not so… frugal. I still got a good meal out of it.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      $45 would be high for lunch for 2 for my area, but it’s not an expensive urban area. So, depends on where you are.
      It would’ve been better for your boss to set the cap for this first. But, eh!

  38. Taking The Long Way Round*

    How do you stick it out? How do you cope?

    – concentrate on what you like about it
    – let go of the stuff you cannot change
    – have a full and varied life outside of work
    – when you’re done for the day, leave your work at work.
    That’s what I do.

  39. StellaBella*

    This is a general comment – related to reading the many recent updates – that I would like some perspective on if people wish to share their perspective.

    Many of the updates involve solving the problem of having toxic bosses, or toxic work places, by the person most affected by the toxicity leave for a new, better role. Which I wholeheartedly approve of – removing oneself from the bad situation is most always for the best.

    But is the office bullying culture, the toxic workplace trend that I seem to be seeing in so many posts, letters, reflections from commenters here – is it increasing, or is it just that when things go badly we need to discuss them? (Figuring out a bias that when things are good there is no reason to write in, etc …maybe? Is it related to competition for things like pay rises, better office, etc?)

    I am genuinely asking if others see this – there are many papers and much research posted (look on researchgate dot net – for the phrase ‘bullying in the workplace’ as one example – literally hundreds of papers on the topic). It is clear this is not just a western phenomenon either – the first paper I see is published by a collaboration from Greece, Pakistan, UK, and Saudi Arabia (on researchgate search for the title ‘Measuring the Scale and Scope of WorkplaceBullying: An Alternative Workplace Bullying Scale’).

    The reason I would like some perspective on this is that for years now I have been thinking two things:
    1. People leave bad managers not jobs
    2. Empathy as one of the core attributes of a good manager, good employee, good teammate, is a tool we all need to have in our wheelhouse – a lack of empathy seems to be directly related to bullying, toxic behaviours, etc. An empathetic manager with strong skills in leading and managing and such is a gem, and a rare one at that, it seems. Part of a mentoring programme perhaps where workers are taught this and valued and (as noted above) can stay in a role for a while to grow and provide value to the firm – vs the turnover culture of just being a cog in a wheel?

    How can one change this trend? Is it a trend? Is it worth looking at? Does anyone have any insight into this?

    Thanks in advance – for also sharing how empathy and positive work environments you have encountered have been beneficial to your growth.

    1. Introvert girl*

      People also leave bad jobs, but just don’t write about it. I noticed that in the last couple of years a lot of companies lie about the functions they want filled, just to get highly qualified people. Like having a master’s degree and speak multiple languages to digitalise documents. I didn’t have any problems with the management, I was just hired for a position that didn’t exist. Quit after three months, but didn’t write about it. Now I’ve learned how to spot the signs, but it’s frustrating.

      1. megan*

        Hi. What are the signs for being hired for a position that doesn’t exist? This might currently be me.

        1. Introvert girl*

          In my case (a translator) it’s when a company wants you to work in an office during specific hours. Which usually means they actually don’t need a translator, but someone to do customer service by phone for a foreign country. But because no one wants to do it, they are looking for “traslators”. Also, when a job looks too good to be true: the national library is looking for people with master degrees for specific language departments. What they need, are people who will digitalise books 40 hours a week (which no one wants).
          Also when you browse the internet for job offers, watch out for these beauties:
          • Young dynamic team = we hire young graduates fresh out of college as they have no idea about the market value of their position
          • New flashy titles = administrative position but we want you to have a master’s degree and speak three languages because smart people learn faster
          • Fast paced work environment = we don’t have enough people to do the job and we don’t want to spend money on more, so you’ll be working overtime and weekends
          • Daily snacks/fruit/yoghurts in the kitchen = the job is really boring OR we don’t give out bonuses
          • Ability to grow = a very junior position that doesn’t pay much, no ability to grow
          • Companies that ask for your cv because they wat to work with you on a freelance base = they need your info to pretend you’re one of their employees to win a tender, you will never hear from them again (on the plus side: if they actually win the tender, the information becomes public and you can sue them)

          Some companies are also sneaky and the job offer does correspond with the actual job, but only for a couple of hours a week. The rest of the time you do something else.

    2. CastIrony*

      I think it’s worth looking at. I’m thinking of leaving a job because I’m terrified of a manager who thinks I’m rude (I have no idea how.) and has this loud, rude tone when she feels like talking to me. For example, when apologizing and explaining that I didn’t have the chance to clean a mess yet (and will do it now that I have the moment thanks to the judgy face she made earlier), she accused me of making excuses.

      This would make me sad because the main manager is the nicest person I’ve encountered in YEARS, and I’m still shocked by that. He makes me want to do my best and improve each day.

      1. StellaBella*

        Thanks for this comment and I hope that things get better for you! Can you do more work for the nice manager and less with the other one?

    3. Asenath*

      I doubt it’s a trend; it’s probably just that people are talking about bullying more. I haven’t actually done the research to back this up, though! People move for different reasons, too. I worked in a very small section of a much larger organization, and it’s often said that when you get a lot of turnover in an section, it’s because there’s something wrong there – organizational issues (eg the work is structured so that a position is undervalued but assigned too much work) or personal issues (well, bullying, or simply personality conflicts – not always from managers). Maybe that’s true – my little zone, which I considered pretty well ideal, has a lot of turnover lately. There’s a retirement, there’s two people moving on to better positions (more pay and responsibility), and there’s someone in a connected group on stress leave probably due to overwork. None of it has anything to do with bullying and only one (and that one not in the core group but run by a different management structure) has to do with overwork due to organizational changes. This is only an anecdote, though, and not data.

    4. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

      I don’t know that bullying in the workplace is actually increasing – honestly I think it’s always been around, if not even worse in the past, but people have more opportunities to be heard today and are more open about speaking up.

    5. LQ*

      The bias of people don’t write in to say “everything’s great, so um…yeah just wanted to say everything’s great” is a big one. You’re going to get the occasional “Go get your dog.” Letter, but they will always be rare because they are frankly less interesting to write, to answer, and to publish. The bad stuff will always show up.

      Also, let’s not pretend that the past doesn’t have horrors. People being locked in buildings that ended up on fire and having to jump out of buildings and die…I mean they didn’t write letters either. But that is our actual past when it comes to toxic workplaces. And also actual toxic workplaces where people were poisoned by the radium they painted onto watch faces.

      It’s fine to say, “This shit can get better.” But I don’t think that the past was all unicorns and rainbows and we should go back the good ole days of working people to literal death. Recognize how the past was shitty, and how it was improved. (Unions, government regulations, competitive pressure.) And then you can apply those things to improving now.

      So, no, I don’t think things are fundamentally getting worse in the world of work. I think we are seeing problems that were always there, but now they are the worst of the problems we have so those are the ones we can solve. We don’t have to solve the problem of being locked in buildings and leaping to our death when a fire happens. That’s a good thing. That these are the problems we (mostly) have now is a good thing. (Though that’s not entirely true and part of this is just the people who do suffer those conditions don’t write into the ask a manager blog. The people who write an advice column are going to be people who’ve had the problems of a literally toxic workplace solved and are now trying to build on top of that and keep making it better.)

      1. StellaBella*

        Very valid points. And yes workers are better heard now, there are unions now in many workplaces, and rights are better. It does seem that the microcosm of the AAM letters I have been reading is the issue as well as personal bias I am sure. :) But I do wonder what will happen to our workforces in the future.

        1. LQ*

          That’s not to say that we shouldn’t keep pushing, but I think it’s really important to understand where you are standing and it is on the shoulders, and because of the battles, of the people who came before you.

          I do think about the things that my niece and nephew’s kids will look at my generation in horror over. There’s always going to be something. Something that might not seem like a big deal at all, something that is so normal that no one would consider it, that with the ability to see past the radium and jerkface bosses becomes so much clearer. The next 10 years don’t seem that hard to guess at, but 25 years…I don’t know that we have that much, or that accurate of, foresight.

          I look forward to learning the heinous thing I’m doing today so I can stop, I just can’t see it because I’m busy fighting the battles I need to fight today so they can fight the next battle.

      2. TiffIf*

        Also, let’s not pretend that the past doesn’t have horrors. People being locked in buildings that ended up on fire and having to jump out of buildings and die…I mean they didn’t write letters either. But that is our actual past when it comes to toxic workplaces. And also actual toxic workplaces where people were poisoned by the radium they painted onto watch faces.

        I just finished reading Kate Moore’s The Radium Girls. It is horrifying.

    6. No Tribble At All*

      I think bullying letters come to AAM a lot because people want outside perspective on their situation. Most cases of “I have a master’s and the company wants me to digitize documents” are clear-cut, but questions about bullying are more varied and subtle.

    7. Thankful for AAM*

      I actually researched this in my field for my masters degree and I do presentations and webinars on it.
      1. The workplace bullying institute website is a very good resource and they have several years of surveys available so you can compare.
      2. There are laws against bullying in other countries so you will see research is farther along in other countries.
      3. In my field, there was a call to focus on this in 2009 at a major conference but no actual research/data collection until 1 paper in 2016 and 2 in 2018. So the tide is turning and we have more facts fueling the focus on it.
      FYI, non-profits have more bullying (big surprise to AAM readers, I know) and my particular type of non-profit has more than many other types.
      4. The field of nursing has done a lot of research and it is interesting.
      5. It is costly to employers and I think that is making employers focus on it.
      6. I think the topic, not the problem, is exploding or at least increasingly visible in online blogs and articles. No idea why it is trendy now but I like to think Millennials were all like, “WTF are y’all doing?” and “why are you putting up with this st*t” so the rest of us realized we were in Plato’s cave and headed for the light.

    8. Tau*

      Going to add another voice saying “confirmation bias, selection bias and/or people talking about this when they didn’t before could explain this”.

      My counterpoint: I’ve left two jobs in the past three years and neither were because of bad managers. Job #1 I left because of Brexit (I was an EU citizen working in the UK and decided to nope out); the work environment was majorly chaotic to the point where there were… like… three or four people who could have plausibly claimed to be my manager at any given moment, and I got on OK with all of them (one was relentlessly negative in a way I found annoying, but in no way abusive, and he quit anyway). Job #2 I left because of a multitude of reasons which also kind of boil down to “seriously chaotic work environment” but my direct boss was fantastic and I’d work for him again in a heartbeat. I didn’t write in about either of them, although I did post a few questions in the open threads.

      I do suspect that factors that influence this are…
      – I’m a software developer, which is an employee’s market right now. Your boss needs to keep you happy because they might not be able to replace you. I suspect that on average, work environments get worse the tighter the job market is for your role.
      – I’m in Europe (UK, then Germany) which not only has stronger employee protection laws than the US but also (at least I get the impression for the two countries I’ve mentioned) tends to have more in the way of training schemes for junior people/new grads/etc.

    9. Aggretsuko*

      I think the way to change the trend would to be to fire the bullies. However, most places do not want to do anything about bullying. My workplace has actually done something about when I got bullied (not firing though), and another girl I know’s work got rid of her bullies by promoting(!)/transferring them, but most absolutely won’t do a thing. They’d rather keep the bullies, especially since most of them know the “kiss up, kick down” protocols and thus kiss the asses of their superiors and make themselves liked by them.

      That is generally why the bullying target has to leave.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      We don’t know if it’s a trend because people haven’t been looking at it for long. But a lot of things are now just more in our consciousness because the internet brings us more data. Read some of Bill Gates’ ‘Good News’ posts, it’s fascinating to see all the things that don’t stick in our anxious public mind.

    11. Donkey Hotey*

      Is it that work-place bullying is increasing or that having a safe forum where one can discuss work-place bullying increasing?

    12. KoiFeeder*

      I don’t think it’s empathy that you mean, here. Plenty of people have empathy, the ability to understand someone’s emotions based on non-language cues and respond emotionally to someone else’s feelings. But that has nothing to do with the desire to help. Honestly, a lot of bullies have empathy, and in spades. They recognize emotions and have emotions in response to those, it’s just that the emotions they have when creating negative emotions are usually things like glee. There are people who feel nothing at all for the distress of others and still want to help them, just as there are people who are totally aware that someone is suffering and understand wholly why that suffering takes place and are happy about it.

    13. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For what it’s worth, in 12+ years of writing this column, I don’t think there’s been an appreciable difference in the level/amount of awfulness I see in letters.

      1. StellaBella*

        This is good to know. I think all the replies to my question and different perspectives are helpful too. Thank you.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Office bullying is an interesting topic.
      I don’t think it’s “new,” I believe it’s something that always existed (and I remember my dad talking about how they basically bullied one guy in the factory he worked at, where some really MEAN pranks were the norm). I’m horrified, but that seems to have been the norm in the 50s-70s and like zero protections. Minorities, immigrants, and women usually bore the brunt of the torment and bullying.

      Today, people talk more about office bullying and yet it still goes on. The reasons today seem to be somewhat shifted to maybe fearfulness about ‘protecting ones job’ if they bully feels threatened, than race or sex (though I’m sure that still happens often too). But other times, it’s also just a power play by one person over another.

      I was the victim of a BullyBoss some years ago. I believe it happened because a) guy was just an asshole, b) I was in an insecure place financially having come off a long layoff–he took advantage of that, c) company was having financial difficulties, d) he felt threatened I had a degree and was working on my masters–while he had none, and e) I stood up for myself, and the more I pushed back, the more gaslighting and bullying he did.

      I left that job a wreck, thinking I couldn’t do even the most BASIC things right, even though I was finishing up my degree and was doing great with my classwork. According to him, I couldn’t even write a letter correctly or speak on the phone coherently. I knew he was full of shit… but still having that kind of thing berated into your brain every day is kind of akin to brainwashing. You really do start to believe YOU are the problem and are incompetent. It took a long time to get over this place, and to this day 10 years later I still panic when getting called into a manager’s office.

  40. Kuddel Daddeldu*

    I asked to reduce my work from (very nominal) 39 hours a week to 32, meaning from a 5-day week to Mondays to Thursdays, any my manager agreed.
    Any suggestions on how to make this work best?
    Background: Financially I’m very comfortable even with 80% of my former salary, so I am most interested in how others managed the transition from a 50+ hour (in reality) week to a more sedate.pace.

    1. londonedit*

      Are you looking for advice on how to manage the work side of things, or how to get used to it personally?

      From a work point of view, I think communication from your boss is going to be key – people need to be clear on the fact that you’re only going to be working Monday-Thursday from now on, so if they need something from you, they have to ask for it in good time because you’re not going to be there on a Friday. And your boss needs to be clear on how they want you to manage things – are they fine with you just heading off on a Thursday afternoon or would they like a short update on your work and any issues that may arise on Friday? Will anyone be covering your work on Fridays, or will people need to learn that you’re not going to be around and the work will have to wait until Monday?

      1. irene adler*

        Are you expected to do the 39 hours’ worth of work in those 32 hours or will some of your tasks be off-loaded to someone else? If someone else will be taking on some of your tasks, then figure out which ones are best to give to others and still keep you to your 32 hour week.

        1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          I have been training colleagues in crucial parts of my work and will also hopefuzhire an assistant soon. My work is in consulting, involving heavy travel (45+ countries in the last 5 years) and fairly specialized; there are maybe 500 experts globally in my field. I will generally work Monday to Thursday but sometimes shift my “free day” around as needed (in 2019, I worked on 28 weekendsor public holidays).
          My boss has announced to the team that I’ll be generally off on Fridays and I will set my email to auto-reply and work phone to voicemail (in emergencies, the office can text me, of course, same as on weekends).
          My main concern is how to make sure I’m not slipping back into bad habits bordering on burnout, working late, writing reports on long flights (my worst month was over 80 hours in the air) and not getting enough quality sleep.

          1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

            And no, I do not plan to cram my current workload into less hours. The last year I was working way more than my official hours (I’m exempt). I do expect to work more than the new official hours (32) but way less than 40 on average.

    2. JR*

      I work part-time and I find it helpful to track my hours, even though I’m exempt. It gives me a sense of how much I’m working, so that I feel comfortable working less in slow weeks, to make up for the weeks I’m working more. It also gives me the data I need to make a case for reducing my load or increasing my pay, if necessary. I use the Harvest app to track and I don’t obsess over exactly what counts (the way I did when I was tracking time for client billing).

      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        Good advice!
        I do that all the time as we have to bill our time on projects or overhead (like training or sales activities). Beyond that, I try to put in a meaningful description so that I can see where the time went – not always easy to be factual and precise; how do you write “waiting for X to arrive for our planned meeting” or “reworking Y’s report to conform to our quality standards” without sounding accusatory?

  41. nate333*

    I’m really struggling to go past my abusive experiences in my last job. I’ve now quit without having another one lined up because staying would pose a threat to my health.

    The work times were extreme. I was ignored and criticized strongly for small mistakes no one even mentioned if others commit them. The communication was horrible.

    Now, I’m out but I still need to accept that that happened and that people I considered reasonable and friendly while starting lied about me (they said my performance was horrible) and abused me. Has anyone gone through that? What helped?

    2. Taking The Long Way Round*

      Yes, therapy.
      Getting another job. I volunteered first – that was helpful, just meeting other nice people.
      Time… and being kind to myself.
      Well done on putting yourself first.

    3. Stephanie*

      It took me a very long time to reshape my thinking after I left a toxic job. Volunteering is a good step toward normalcy.
      Read AAM. It helps to hear from others what normal workplaces are like, and it helps to hear that your perception of the craziness is not wrong.
      And honestly, therapy is not a bad idea of you can swing it.

    4. StellaBella*

      Therapy if you can afford it. If not get some books at the library or online resources in mindfulness and ways to cope after being bullied. Also – if you search this site, there are over 3,000 links to letters and advice that mention bullying, so you can also look here for advice. Good luck, and I am sorry this happened to you. You can emotionally get through this, with time and guidance, and know that being bullied makes them horrible people.

    5. epi*

      Yes. When I reported that someone in my office was stalking me, everyone– and I mean everyone including people in HR, our office of civil rights (it’s a university), counseling center, you name it– responded with emotional abuse and gaslighting so extreme, when I list it all out in a factual way it sounds too improbable to be true.

      I would strongly recommend therapy for you. Being exposed to ongoing abuse, especially by people you trusted or depended on, is a severe form of trauma that can fundamentally change your worldview and the way you relate to others. You deserve to take it seriously and access anything you think might help you, even if it seems like ‘too much’.

      If access to mental health care is tough for you right now between jobs, you can start by focusing on other activities. Even once you get into therapy, you’ll need to do other stuff for it to really improve your life. You can start that other stuff now.

      Get a journal. If you prefer to type, look into Standard Notes which will encrypt your journal and let you sync it between devices. Start reaching out to friends– talk about your situation or don’t, but build your connection and get some love. Exercise. Identify some music that is happy and makes you feel good, and start having it on all the time. In fact, try to find something that you enjoy for every sense and use it to make more nice things happen to you. If you’re having trouble sleeping or controlling your thoughts about what happened, you may be interested in meditation, yoga, or relaxation/breathing exercises to help you learn to control those. Look for a Cognitive Behavioral Therapy workbook on anxiety, depression, or trauma and start working through it on your own. And layer your strategies: exercise with a friend. Cook with your favorite playlist on. Go for a walk somewhere beautiful.

      Wishing you a better new year.

  42. DipPlated*

    I’d like to transition to a remote job but don’t know where to start.

    I have a project management (PMP, etc) background, but have been working for a niche U.S. government agency overseas the last few years. I’d like to leave and work on the private-sector side (government adjacent, contractor, etc) in a remote position that would allow me to work from anywhere. My field is international development.

    But… where do I start? I’m overwhelmed by Indeed, Devex, Linked In, and all the other sites out there that sometimes have remote options. Since I’ve been inside the government the last couple of years, I feel I’ve missed out on private sector hiring trends and getting back up to speed, and I’m rusty on the skills that I used in my pre-government jobs.

    International development is behind the times on remote work and I’m finding that the big players in the industry don’t even consider remote positions in the way that other government adjacent employers often do.

    Anyone out there in the AAM universe have any suggestions for how to better target my search?

    1. 867-5309*

      Take a look at Booz and similar consulting companies – this will give your search some direction. Booz also does a lot of government contract work so your experience would be relevant.

      Note that most require travel so while you can live anywhere, you’ll spend time going onsite to clients.

  43. Disheartened*

    I have been job searching for well over a year now since I graduated with a Bachelor’s (non-technical).

    I’ve received 40+ rejections in the past year: when the automated filters chime in, that number more than triples. I have gotten interviews via phone, video chat and in-person: typically in batches of three to five over a couple weeks, then nothing for a month or two. Sometimes I hear back. Usually I don’t.
    I’ve been ghosted. Told to try again in six months, a year. Told the in-person interview was canceled *after* I showed up (on time, I add). I’ve been advised that I’m overqualified for entry-to-mid-level office work, but lack the experience for anything else. I remain rehireable by all my previous employers but never heard back after reapplying. I’m now down to retail and have been rejected there, too.

    I don’t have the funds anymore for someone to go over my resume, and my cover letters get me positive comments. I know the problem is with *me*: I’m on the autistic spectrum, right where Asperger’s used to be. ~85% of autistic adults *with a degree* are unemployed. I don’t like being in that statistic: I can and have held jobs! I just have an extremely difficult time getting them in the first place!

    There’s supposed to be autism-positive companies out there, and maybe even resources for those of us on the spectrum to link up with possible careers. I just haven’t had any success making contact and I’m at my wit’s end.

    1. StellaBella*

      In terms of autism-spectrum-positive firms I have seen that “six companies—Ford Motor, DXC Technology, EY, Microsoft, JPMorgan Chase, and SAP—formed the Autism at Work Employer Roundtable to share best hiring and workplace practices and to help other companies see the return on investment in hiring autistic employees. …. Companies in the Autism at Work Employer Roundtable are not the only ones to hire autistic employees. Google, HP, Salesforce, and others also have similar programs.” Neurodiverse employee forums are also a good place to search…. In 2012, Specialisterne launched the Autism Advantage program in the U.S., working with SAP and Microsoft to launch successful autism employment programs. I hope this helps and I hope these resources can lead you to finding a good job soon. Best of luck!

      1. Disheartened*

        I haven’t heard of Specialisterne: I’ll be looking into it. I’ve applied for positions with Microsoft but heard nothing back. I’m guessing there’s a large number of qualified candidates.

        I posted due to a particular moment of expectant disappointment (“…again?” *sigh*) after I received an email stating that my second-round interview was cancelled, the same day I was informed by a different company that the first-round phone call I never received could not be rescheduled. Thanks for the suggestions.

    2. TableServicePlz*

      I had an awful, long search–one that left me at my whit’s end as well! I was targeted and thoughtful, searched for hours everyday, applied to jobs I believed I would be a perfect fit for, and hand crafted my materials to fit each role for which I was applying. I would track each application and ruminate over whether I would get that particular job. I got interviews, phone and in person, and I even got two offers, both of which evaporated for different reasons, so some nibbles, but never landed a job. I was at my lowest point, personally and professionally.

      Then, I decided, F it! I am going to write a fairly generic cover letter, tweaking only what is absolutely necessary, and use a more scatter shot approach of applying to anything I think I am even remotely qualified for, whether I think it’s a good job or not. I sent in ~50 application over a couple of days, and got a couple of interviews. One of the roles I interviewed for, I didn’t receive, but while interviewing, was asked to interview for a different role with higher pay and more responsibility. I interviewed for that role and got the job, making about 40% than I would have accepted.

      In my darkest days, I would not have believed it. It was only through perseverance and just hanging on through the toughest times that I got through it. It’s possible, and I am rooting for you!

    3. Fellow Aspie*

      Whilst it may be a case of “the boss protests too much, methinks”, how about looking for a company with diversity and inclusion as an active part of its work policies? Personally, that’s one of the reasons I was attracted to my current job (note: I don’t speak for them and all fangirling is my own). Additionally, I don’t know whether graduate programs are exclusive to very recent grads or whether you’d qualify, since I’m on a slightly different program, but maybe look into a graduate scheme as either you’d find a company (and job at a company) that works for you or you’d have, say, 2 years of experience under your belt. If I remember right, not all the members of my company’s grad scheme work in tech, so this isn’t just a technical thing.

      (By the way, if you do decide to research the company I work for, it’s the Royal Bank of Canada. Again (sorry for yelling but this is an important part of the social media policy and I don’t want to get fired), ALL OPINIONS ARE MY OWN. Having said that (again), I would definitely look them up. They treat people with all sorts of disabilities – physical, mental, temporary, permanent, since birth or since six months ago – wonderfully. And despite the name, they’re big enough to have a reach in several countries – not only Canada, the US and my native London. but also some smaller offices in other places. Still not an official spokesperson (just a rabid fangirl), but check what’s available if you like.)

      Massive Jedi hugs to you and good luck with your job search!

    4. 867-5309*

      What kind of work are you looking to do? “Office work” is quite broad. Have you tried staffing firms?

      If there’s a gap in your work experience, then I’d look to volunteer somewhere.

      1. Disheartened*

        “Office work” is broad, yes, and partially deliberately so. Specifically, my experience is primarily in problem solving (usually in a CSR-type position) and data/ticket organization/cataloging (not data science, though I wish I’d gone for that). I do well with the former and excellently with the latter. Seeing as I don’t have A+ certification nor any interest in headed that way, I cannot pursue the majority of tech support-style work in my area. I may have to get it just to get it, though. I’m not an upwardly-mobile person: I *prefer* working the support role over the frontline. Its been…commented on. I have zero interest in people-managing.

        “Gap” is a nice way to put it. Following graduation, I left my (dead-end, no raises, no changes, but put me through school) last position of over three years to travel for a planned-for-over-a-year three months. My initial search was the “apply for what interests you” approach since I had the funds to hold down the fort for a fair while, but now I’m at the, “I need income *now*,” mark.

        I’m with three temp agencies at the moment. Nada.

    5. Fikly*

      I am also autistic, and I think it’s easy to blame ourselves for unemployment. And yes, the statistics are horrifying. But on the other hand, over a year of job searching fresh out of undergrad in today’s economy is not super unusual. So I don’t know that it is you, without further evidence.

      As for overqualified, can you ask what makes you seem overqualified? And if possible, leave that bit off your resume?

      1. Disheartened*

        I’ve been explicitly told for seven positions (of course I keep track!), including three through a temp agency, that it’s my *Bachelor’s* combined with my multi-industry employment background. that makes me overqualified. My BA is an admittedly relatively-generic Humanities category with a focus on written communication.

        One position not included in that number I did not pursue due to an untenable commute was a mid-level document processing in a legal office. Similar positions with other companies advertised a preference for several years of experience or a Bachelor’s equivalent education. The hiring manager informed me I was overqualified due to having a Humanities degree. At the time, I thought pursuing further clarification would be overstepping my bounds.

        …I remain confused, as the described cataloging work was right up my alley.

        1. Fikly*

          Ah. So this might actually be an autism thing. What one company wants as a qualification for a position may not be the same for another company, even though the positions seem identical! So I might take the degree off your resume unless specifically mentioned in the requirements, and see what happens.

          I once had an interview where I was told I was overqualified, and then the interviewer spent the entire time telling me what jobs I should be applying for instead. I am still confused as to why he interviewed me.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Do I have this right? You have a diverse background in problem-solving & explanation, direct customer contact so you have had immediate feedback over time about those explanations, data organization, a writing heavy degree, and you’re looking for a back-office role with less customer contact?
          Look into technical writing. At the basic level it means reading engineering/marketing docs ‘translating’ that into instructions for less technical readers, and questioning the design staff where their docs are contradictory or incomplete.
          Certain industries may require specific technical BS/MS (e.g. some pharmaceuticals and aerospace), but in many, it’s simply easier to teach the tech than the writing skills.

      2. The Charlestonian*

        But on the other hand, over a year of job searching fresh out of undergrad in today’s economy is not super unusual

        Today’s economy is quite possibly the best in the modern history of the country.

        1. Fikly*

          How are you defining modern history? Because if you’re including the last 30 years, I’m going to have to laugh, a lot.

          Unemployment figures are incredibly deceptive because they do not count people who have given up looking for work, because they’ve been searching for so long. Or the people who are underemployed, and by underemployed I am including those who are working full time but cannot afford rent because of lack of a living wage.

          It’s easier to find a job out of college than in 2010, sure. But that’s only if modern history is the last decade, and I beg to differ there.

    6. LilySparrow*

      This is a bit of a lateral approach, but do you disclose your diagnosis? I know that’s not something anyone usually wants to do, for good reason. But if you are repeatedly getting cut after first-round interviews, it could possibly help.

      Kind of like the advice for interviewing with a rash on your face, or something. Maybe you could identify a behavioral trait that people find offputting, and “lampshade” it at the beginning.

      So if we took the stereotypical example of eye contact, maybe something like,

      “By the way, I should mention that I make eye contact a lot less than average, and some people find that awkward. It’s nothing personal, it’s because I’m on the spectrum. It’s never been a problem in my other CSR jobs. I think it actually helps me listen more closely and get to the solution quickly.”

      I don’t know if that would work for you, just throwing it out there. If you’re in a bind already, it might be worth taking a risky approach.

      1. Disheartened*

        I’ve started disclosing up front in the last couple of months. Hard to say if there’s been any actual success, there, though. I had two rejections last week: one where the second interview was cancelled day-of (‘we’re not moving forward with you’) and one where I just wasn’t chipper enough for their office culture. >.>

        Mind you, I’m not a *dour* person by any stretch and have a strong appreciation for snark…which I do not indulge in during interviews!

        I think it *is* an approach I need to stick with, however, and I do appreciate it being brought up. Disclosing after the hiring offer at my last position really smoothed things over with a manager that would’ve otherwise been difficult to communicate with.

        Interesting note: my problem is that I stare too much (at noses and eyebrows…) rather than not maintaining apparent eye contact at all. Overcorrection from when my lack of eye contact was pointed out in my teens, 15 years before my diagnosis. So that never helps.

        1. LilySparrow*

          Interesting. I didn’t mean to assume anything about your own traits, sorry. It was just an example that lent itself to thinking maybe interviewers are misinterpreting something that can be cleared up.

          I wish you the best of luck, and hope you land something very good very soon!

  44. Past my last straw*

    We’ve been down 2 staff positions, including our supervisor. Now her boss has left. We haven’t been contacted by anyone to say that we’d be working for BigGuy at HQ in another state, but that’s what the organization chart says in Outlook. I tried to talk to HR about who we go to with the minutia and she seemed offended that I’d want to know.
    It’s just one more last straw, so draft is soon to be polished. So much for a relaxing Christmas vacation.

    1. Lyudie*

      “I tried to talk to HR about who we go to with the minutia and she seemed offended that I’d want to know.”

      I don’t have anything helpful to say but wowwwwwww. It seems pretty basic to know who you need to go to if something goes sideways??

    2. ArtK*

      Reach out to the BigGuy. He’s the one on the chart, so it’s his call on how to deal with this. Frankly, with at least two open levels in the org chart, he should be on top of the issue. I’m not surprised HR was huffy — who gives you direction and support isn’t in their purview.

  45. Breast Solidarity*

    I wand Alison to do a Carolyn Hax-style Hootenany of Office Christmas Party outrageous stories!

    I really need to the laughs :)

    1. Liane*

      Usually there is a call for people to share such tales and related incidents, like really bad, mean-spirited, or downright inappropriate gift exchange presents.
      If you’re new(ish) to AAM, use the site search to find them. Also there have been 1 or 2 non-holiday posts on “crazy things people do over food in the office” that you may enjoy.

  46. 4 this need to be anon*

    Hello all. Small story and work vent – not sure if I need advice yet. I am on medical leave, and I work for an organization that is bound by law to honour medical leave and cannot fire you while you are on leave (I am outside the US).

    I had sent some questions to HR about what happens in the next few months as my contract is currently set to end before my treatments end. The HR people sent it to my boss. Boss tends to want to discuss things in person or on the phone and never ever wants a paper trail. Boss sent me an email asking me to call. I replied to the email, and copied the HR people and asked for replies in email to basic questions. I am annoyed as boss did some other things to me and a few former employees this year with a lot of verbal stuff and no written trail. So one of the former teammates counselled me to always write things down and follow up …’per our discussion here is what we said, any comments would be appreciated if. this is not the case…’ We will see what happens.

    I am ill, I have a lot of medical appointments each week, I do not feel good, it is the holidays, and I am not going to have a call without documenting it as it may affect many things in terms of insurance. Sorry this is a bit of a whine but I can see the boss trying to talk me into things and it pisses me off.

    1. Batgirl*

      I think your friend is right. Let your boss have their verbal plays, but then go right ahead and document it in an email. Make a record of everything said verbally in a journal too. Make notes as they talk.

      I am so sorry you are dealing with this stress on top of feeling ill. How can that possibly help!

      If your boss fails to answer any questions put that down in the email and give them a deadline for a response.

      Is there any way you can job hunt while on leave? My other tip would be to access a union and get them to do the heavy lifting while you’re unwell.

    2. Bilateralrope*

      What are your local laws around recording phone calls ?

      Because, if it’s legal, I’d suggest having a discussion with your boss over the phone. Record it.

    3. Thankful for AAM*

      In a phone call or conversation, repeat what they said, you want me to do x?, you think y is a possible solution? And then stop talking. And have the phrase, I need to think about that or a similar one handy so you dont agree to anything.

      And follow every conversation with an email, I want to confirm, you suggested x, I will review that and get back to you.

  47. Introvert girl*

    It’s been a very weird week. I was promised a promotion (in title and raise) after saving a project and not only finishing it but adding to an increase of value for the company. When receiving the title my manager told me that the title of senior lama groomer corresponds with a salary of 45 lama coins, which is exactly the salary I make now. It’s also less than the starting salary of all the junior people in my position (yes, I’m being paid below market rate). He kept on apologising and said he thought I was earning way less. He’s new and started on the same level as myself and I really like him, as a person and as a manager, but I just wasn’t expecting this.
    Has anyone ever encountered something like this? Is this a mistake or a strategy?
    We’ll have a talk after the New Year, but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

    1. LQ*

      If your company does pay bands/grades/levels in a way that is highly structured (or you’re in a union environment) this is just a mistake most likely. Especially if he’s a new manager. It’s all worse and more confusing than you possibly can imagine. Assuming it’s some kind of highly structured place like that (if you’ve got titles corresponding to salaries that way you likely are) then one of the things to ask for is if there is anyway to reevaluate the title and the role and if there are any other options for you. I’d definitely bring it up again, once you get the bitter out, and just come up with a hey, what can we do, what are the options. If he knows you’re underpaid that’s really good. Can he authorize to pay for overtime? What other titles are out there that might fit for you? Are there bonuses that are available?

      I’d really assume it’s a mistake and if he’s good, one he’ll be kicking himself over for a long time. But pay bands and titles and ugh it’s all more awful than you think to make sense of. Another thing that’s a much MUCH longer term fix is for him to do a push to reevaluate pay for the whole band. This generally requires more clout than a new manager would have and would require burning a lot of political capital at a lot of places, but it is entirely worth planting that seed too.

      1. Introvert girl*

        My company is not really structured, overtime is paid but almost doesn’t exist in my department. There are no bonuses. I think you’re right and it’s just a mistake as he was also the one who suggested the promotion (before I asked for it). We’ll see after the holidays. :)

        1. LQ*

          I think it’s still worth bringing up the overtime piece. I would have said it was something that didn’t exist in my department 2 years ago (and it didn’t), but when I finally broke down and asked my boss about it he granted it and changed things up so that I could get basically as much as I needed to get the job done, but also to get me paid at a much more in line with my work. It won’t hurt to bring it up as an option, especially if you actually do work, or need to work the overtime.

          If he’s new he might be struggling with how to get this done even if it’s unstructured so keep a bit of pressure on him.

          After the holidays is a good time to sit down and come back at it too. Think of it as something you’re going to fix together and you’ll both do better with it.

    2. montescristo1985*

      It almost has to be a mistake. Even if they were trying to lowball you on the raise, they’d at least have given something.

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I think it’s possible that it was deliberate, too. At one of my former companies, you had to ask for a raise, or else you wouldn’t get one, because TPTB didn’t see any reason in giving people raises if they were happy with what they were earning. So, after you asked your supervisor for a raise, if he felt that you deserved it, he would tell the office manager. If she thought that you deserved it, she would tell the Comptroller. If he thought that you deserved it, he would tell the Treasurer. If he thought that you deserved it, he would tell a VP, and your raise requet would have to go through all of the VPs, and then the EVP, and if he thought that you deserved a raise, he would tell the President, and if he thought that you deserved a raise, he would tell the Chairman, and if the Chairman thought that you deserved a raise, you would get one.

        There were a number of problems:

        1) If your supervisor left the company before your raise request reached the Chairman, you were told that there was no record that you had asked for a raise, and you were told to ask your new supervisor for a raise. The new supervisor would say that there was no way he could determine that you were entitled to a raise, because he was new and was unfamiliar with your work.

        2) If, before your raise request reached the Chairman, the office manager left the company, again, your raise request disappeared into thin air, because the new office manager would tell you that there was no record indicating that the previous office manager had approved your raise request. You were told to ask your supervisor to submit another raise request on your behalf.

        3) I always got a raise when I requested one (until TPTB changed the way they gave out raises), so I don’t know what happened when employees weren’t approved to get a raise? Were they specifically told that they weren’t getting a raise, or were they forced to conclude it when months went by, and no one said anything to them, and their salary didn’t change? I don’t know. Were they told which person didn’t think that they deserved a raise? Did they have the opportunity to say, for example, “Mr. EVP, I was told that you didn’t approve my raise, but were you aware that during the past year, I accomplished such-and-such?” And the EVP would say, “No, I had no idea. We’re not in the same department. How would I know a thing like that?” And did they have the opportunity to say, “Well, in that case, I would appreciate it if you would reconsider.” I don’t know. For all I know, they were told that they weren’t getting a raise but were not told who didn’t think they were entitled to one, because that information was confidential.

        Eventually, the company changed the way they gave out raises, and they said that a committee would be formed to evaluate all of the employees at the same time and decide who was worthy of getting a raise. Unfortunately, the committee was never able to meet. We were told that someone was always out sick or on vacation or on a business trip. We weren’t told who was on the committee, supposedly to protect their privacy, but I think that it was to prevent us from saying, “Every single member of the committee was here in the office every single day the last two weeks.”

        It was only after I asked for a raise that my supervisor told me about this committee. There hadn’t been a general announcement. I waited six weeks, and I heard nothing about a meeting. Then I found out that others who had asked for a raise a few months before I did were complaining about the committee not meeting, and they found new jobs and left. I found a new job and gave two weeks notice at the end of July. I told the office manager, who was very upset, that I got tired of waiting for the committee to meet. She promised me that the committee would meet before the end of the year. I said that I didn’t want to wait.

        On December 30, I had lunch with three ex co-workers, and I was very surprised to find out that the committee still hadn’t met. I said that the office manager had promised me that the committee would meet before the end of the year. “Maybe it will meet tomorrow,” I said. They didn’t think so.

        I eventually found out that as of the following March, the committee still hadn’t met. I don’t know what happened after that. But while I was looking for a new job, I had learned that what that company did was illegal – inventing a committee that never meets that’s supposed to decide on raises – because the company had a contract with the federal government. And I would eventually find out that a future company broke the law two different ways with the way they ran their 401(k) plan. I found this out when I worked for a CPA firm.

        So, when there’s a problem with money, and the employee seems to getting the short end of the stick, I tend to believe that the company is screwing the employee over.

    4. Dealtwiththis*

      I don’t have any advice but I wanted to chime in that I have had this happen. My position and title changed internally (although really, it was just to better match with the work that I had already been doing), and I got a call from HR during the transition telling me that “I was lucky they weren’t going to cut my pay because the previous position was on track to make much more than my current position”. I was brand new in the work world at the time and didn’t push back because I was so glad to be making the transition at all.

    5. Product Person*

      There’s something fishy in what you told us. How can the salary for the senior role (a promotion) be the same as your current role, and also less than the starting salary of junior people in your current role?

      If the starting salary of junior people in your role is higher than your current salary?, how could your manager think you were learning less? And how could he expect you to take a senior role for less rhan the junior folks do?

      Good for you to be planning another talk. Make sure you don’t accept more responsibility at the same low salary–we’ve all seen how expecting to be able to renegotiate later doesn’t work.

      Good luck! If they don’t give you a raise, I’d put the successful project in my resume and start aggressively looking.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Thank you for all your help! The fact is that my role has tripled since the summer. Overtime is paid in my company, but has to be approved by higher management. I work quite fast and hate doing overtime so I only had around 5 hours in the last 6 months.
        Also, something else happened a couple of days later. You see, in September our then current boss had a meeting with all of us to tell us that we have till December to choose if we want to work from home full time or from the office with occasional HO. This was due to the company growing and this way those who preferred to work from home full time, would give their desks to newcomers. The guy left in October. My manager is one level below him. In November I asked my manager if this policy was still valid and I was told that the policy was actually an idea from upper management and still valid. A couple of days ago we had another meeting telling us that the policy has changed and it will be as it was before: desk with occasional HO. The fact that this was done after we managed to finish the project which tripled our workload makes me uneasy. I’m now on HO till the beginning of January, but feel a bit used by the company.
        I’m very tired and started therapy. I want to avoid a burnout.

  48. Beth Jacobs*

    I posted here last week about not getting a reach position. I’d like to thank LQ, Catsaber, Not So New Reader and Wishing you well for their kind words.
    Well, this Wednesday the organisation called me back. Their first choice turned them down in favour of an internal position at her current company. I got the job afterall! It’s a huge step up in responsibility, a 50% pay rise and a very good pension contribution plan. I’m so happy and also grateful to the AskaManager site, which was so helpful when drafting my cover letter and interviewing.
    I am a bit anxious of course – will I be good at the job? It’s much more independent than what I’m doing now. But if I didn’t have what it takes, they wouldn’t have hired me. Also looking for some tips on avoiding lifestyle creep – I already make decent money but save about 10 %, I’m hoping to be diligent about putting most of the increase towards savings (though some will go towards new clothes, as the dress code is business formal every day).

    1. LQ*

      Congratulations! That’s fantastic news! You’re going to rock!

      Plan to spend more time than you think ramping up to get up to speed. And a good strategy for self management and motivation. You can do this!

    2. Mimosa Jones*

      Congratulations! You’re going to be great!

      As for lifestyle creep, set up your paychecks to go directly to savings and have your savings account transfer living expenses into your checking account. That way you don’t even see the extra money. I used this method to survive a period of bouncing paychecks and it created a nice nest egg in the process. Give yourself a little extra in your transfers so you can enjoy the raise in your daily life, but keep most of it in savings. You can always transfer more to cover planned spending.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        Congrats!!!
        Mimosa Jones has excellent advice.
        I will only add to have a goal for savings, like a 6 month emergency fund and then x goal after that, it helps to have a focus or goal.

        Also, the book, the Index Card, is really good for financial advice.

        Enjoy the new job!

      3. Elenna*

        This! It’s like the money your company takes off your paycheck for income tax, pensions, etc. You can’t accidentally spend it through lifestyle creep because it comes off your paycheck before you even get it. Set up your savings the same way – take off the amount you want to save first, then the rest is your “real” paycheck. Bonus: you can spend the entire “real” paycheck without guilt, because you know you already saved the money!

    3. new kid*

      What an awesome update, congrats!!!

      Don’t let the ‘reach’ worries get to you – you’re 100% right that they wouldn’t have hired you if they didn’t think you had what it takes. You’ve got this!

    4. Catsaber*

      Congrats! That’s awesome! You will do great. Don’t be afraid to ask lots of questions and take lots of notes. Even though you’ll have more independence, it’s totally okay to ask lots of questions at first to get your bearings.

      As for lifestyle creep…I’d bump up your savings just a little bit more, both for emergency fund and retirement. But don’t worry about it too much. Treat your self for a little bit, and enjoy your raise. What helped me when I got big raises was to buy something nice for myself – an affordable nice, like a piece of furniture I’d been wanting – and that got the “desire” to spend out of my system upfront. It was also to congratulate myself. :)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Congratulations!!

      I have often thought we spend to the same limit that we earn. If you have direct deposit and you can automatically deposit into savings each pay period, this might be helpful to you. Do allow for modest treats periodically. Let’s say you are diligent with your savings for x months, the allow yourself $y dollars as a treat for staying on track.
      I think the problems come in when we try to be too rigid and set too firm/restrictive rules for ourselves.

      It can feel like, “Dang! I earned this money, when do I get to enjoy it?” And there is some truth to that. The problems really come in with the extremes of Not Spending Anything OR Blowing All of It. Perhaps if you write out on paper what you think you should do in terms of budgeting this will help you take more of a practical approach to handling your money. (Notice this is not like a regular real budget, it’s a hypothetical map of where you want to go now financially.)

  49. Anon at the holidays*

    Has anyone had a situation with a colleague who rings your alarm bells, for no clear reason?

    I have a colleague who I feel very very uneasy around, and I can’t put my finger on why. Middle-aged man, no inappropriate or off-colour comments, no inappropriate behaviour that I could identify, but he worries me enough that I don’t want to be near him. I’ve tried to keep it very professional (his work is genuinely very good) and I don’t think that my feelings are visible.

    I’m particularly wary about this as I believe that he is on the autism spectrum – and so am I. So am I simply picking up on non-NT behaviour and worrying inappropriately? Or something else?

    1. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

      In general, I’m a big fan of listening to your gut.

      Trust your instincts. Keep it professional, as it sounds like you are doing, but don’t ignore the feeling.

    2. Asenath*

      I’ve met lots of people who struck me as, well, slightly odd. Generally I just try to be polite and not worry about them or their behaviour, and it’s worked well for me. I’ve often read that people should trust their instincts if something seems “off” because it’s all based on accurate subconscious observations or something, but that doesn’t work for me. I go by what actions I can really notice and try to ignore just things that seem off but I don’t know why. I think I feel strongly about this because of incidents in my past like the ones in which someone stole from me and of course the thief couldn’t be the nicest person in the group, it had to be someone who seemed a bit suspicious – but it was the charming and apparently honest person.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      Yes. I just avoided. If someone gives you bad vibe for “no reason,” there is probably some reason you don’t know about.
      We interviewed someone like that once and I said afterwards that I literally did not want to be in the same room with them ever again! I seriously won’t be surprised if he turns out to have bodies in his basement or something someday. It was like he sucked all the air out of a room.

    4. Tau*

      Not a colleague, but I have this feeling about someone I know socially through a hobby and also have no clue why. (I’m on the spectrum, I’m pretty sure he’s not.)

      Like the others, I generally lean in favour of trusting your gut. Especially because… mm… I’m not sure if this is true for you, but I think that as an autistic person it’s easy to internalise the message “I’m bad at social things, I can’t read body language, if I have gut feelings about someone they’re probably wrong and I should ignore them.” Which is wrong, and dangerous, and worth pushing against! So I personally am really working on taking things like “I get the impression this person doesn’t like me” or “This guy strikes me as unsafe” and not immediately dismissing them.

      The good news is that the way you’re handling it sounds perfect – keep it super-professional. Really, with the average colleague relationship, there should be no need to really be alone with him or talk to him about anything but the most bland, superficial personal stuff, and as long as you’re not letting it interfere with your job or blatantly treating him differently from everyone else there should be no reason for him to complain, or even notice. If he pushes against that… well, that’s a data point in its own right, isn’t it.

      1. Anon at the holidays*

        Thank you all!

        It’s a little awkward because we share the same niche interest, so people assume that we should get on.

        However, I can honestly say that I’ve been positive about his work, never commented about his manner, but would raise concerns if I ever became aware of misbehaviour. We work with vulnerable adults which is another reason that I’m a little wary.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          At some point you may have opportunity to talk to a trusted cohort to see what they think, also.
          But until then definitely follow your gut.

    5. Mazzy*

      Not the same kind of vibe, but I always had the feeling one of my coworkers did nothing, and people acted like I was gossiping when I mentioned it to two people. Then I realized his screen reflects on some glass walls at certain times of day, and lo and behold, what you see can not be unseen, I’ve never seen him on anything work related. He’s sitting browsing the internet all of the time and his computer is turned away from people and they don’t monitor internet usage, so. Feeling confirmed!

    6. Sequoit*

      This happened to me! Same situation, same demographic you’re describing. Our colleague was hired for a temp position and for some reason we couldn’t pinpoint, multiple women had their alarm bells go off. He was in a customer-facing role and was professional, personable, and enthusiastic. Since it was all vague feelings of uneasiness and no one could point to any specific moments of inappropriateness or anything explicitly wrong, we sort of talked ourselves out of the alarm bells and gave him a chance. He’s now in a more permanent position, and I think we’ve gradually warmed up to him (no complaints or concerns that I’m aware of) and he’s still a great worker and professional and eager to contribute. I think there’s still a possibility that the alarm bells are merited, but we decided that we can’t ding him for something he hasn’t done or said. YMMV but that’s what happened at my job.

  50. hillrat*

    So has anyone here ever had a new job where you (a) are quite happy with your actual co-workers but (b) really dislike the company itself? i.e., the culture and expectations of your actual office are a good fit, but the culture and expectations of the company are a bad fit. How did it work out for you?

    1. Agent Agent*

      Yep! I’m still there, and for me, it all comes down to my boss. She’s a great gatekeeper and defender when she needs to be. She lets the powers that be know when they’re being unreasonable.

      That said, things are busier than ever, and more and more unreasonableness is slipping through. (She can only guard against so much without putting her own job at risk.) As much as I enjoy my coworkers, and appreciate the promotions I’ve received, it is getting to be too much. I’m at 2.5 years, and considering dusting off the resume.

    2. Millennial Lizard Person*

      I love my current team of about 10 people. Also, the company is a dumpster fire, has been for several years, and things haven’t changed. We mostly cope by mocking the senior leadership.

    3. Ms Fieryworth*

      Yep, I’ve been there. I stayed for 5 years and tried to make it better. In the end I decided to leave. I found a job where I like both the co-workers and the company.

    4. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Yes. It was a big tradeoff for everyone who accepted a job in our office, but the people on our team were always so talented that the team itself was a big plus that outweighed the parent org being so backward. But pay was so low that we had a lot of turnover all the time. My boss didn’t have the resources to keep great people even when he desperately wanted to. In the end the parent org forced such drastic changes that everyone quit en masse.

    5. Avasarala*

      Kind of there. I think the key difference is you know right away this isn’t going to be a long term fit. Once those coworkers/immediate bosses you love are gone, you’re going to want out. So enjoy it, make sure you shore up those skills and recommendations for when you do move on.

  51. DoomCarrot*

    Hi, me again, with the overly entitled coworker and the academia issues!

    It looks like unfortunately, I may be getting sacrificed as a political pawn in the aformentioned interedpartmental politics, so I’m trying to have a Plan B in place just in case.

    So my question is: did any of you leave a PhD programme without finishing, and how did you get your career back on track/sell three years as a postgrad with nothing to show for it on your CV to employers?

    (For those playing along at home: Remora has already asked whether if my contract doesn’t get renewed, I can arrange to transfer my remaining conference/publication budget to her!)

    1. Reba*

      ok, first of all re: the parenthetical, RUDE

      I did eventually finish my humanities PhD, but I tell all young people that I meet that “quitting is always an option”!! I know several folks in various fields who left.

      I think one key thing is to tell the story of it with intention, like “I decided to change direction,” “I left the program because I became interested in doing X work,” or even just “I’m passionate about Field but I learned the PhD track wasn’t for me.” Even if that’s not true! It will eventually be true enough! Don’t go around telling people “academia is a horrible sinkhole of mismanagement papered over with prestige and I was forced out.” Leave that bit behind.

      Finally, there is absolutely no way you have “nothing to show” for the past three years!

      Good luck to you.

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Ugh, so sorry this is happening! I have been wondering how you’re doing. Fingers crossed for you.

    3. Anonsy*

      I did exactly this and spun it as “I reevaluated where I wanted my career to go, focusing on work-life balance which having a PhD would overqualify me for the career I want”….. etc.

      Realistically, I left because my advisor was highly abusive and my health couldn’t take it.

      Best of luck, OP.

      1. Anonsy*

        I also found that I had far more responsibilities as a student than I do as staff at the same university. The skills and experience I gained are still relevant, even though I may not have defended a dissertation.

  52. Academic Librarian*

    Last day of an international business trip. It’s been more than a week. Dreading my expense report. Any tips?

    2. LQ*

      Ask for help. Honestly if there is someone who travels internationally a lot or an assistant for someone who does ask them to help. I also go with call payroll and ask them to double check it.

      1. Marianne Dashwood*

        I agree with asking an assistant for help as well as having someone double check it. I’m an assistant who does expense reports often; I have to send them to higher-ups for review and they’ll sometimes catch a mistake I made. Teamwork!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Don’t try to do it all at once if it’s overwhelming. Spend 30 minutes, come back to it a few hours later for another 30 minutes.

      If you had asked us this question before the trip, we would have told you to keep a running spreadsheet and write everything you can in English on your receipts.

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      Take pictures of all of your receipts, one at a time. Write any reminder notes before you take the picture. That way, if you lose one, you still have a record of it. Write down all of your cash expenditures that didn’t have a receipt on a single page, e.g. bellhop, tips, bus fare, etc. before you return and create a spreadsheet or a note or send yourself an email with the information

      If you are on Concur or a similar expense reporting system, install the app on your phone and enable e-receipts and automatic report creation. It will save you a ton of time. Since expense reporting systems are customized to each organization and expense policies differ, sometimes by department, make sure you check with either a colleague or an assistant to make sure you complete everything according to policy before submitting the report.

    5. Academic Librarian*

      Thank you. This is the advice I needed.
      The dread. I always screw something up like transposing numbers and/or an autofill changing my destination. I took photo/scans of all the receipts and just have to do it on Monday.

  53. Possibly Enough Detail to be Identified?*

    I think I just need a pre-Christmas vent. There was a post earlier this week talking about wanting to give feedback to a bad and bothersome former boss and the overwhelming advice is to make like Elsa and Let It Go.

    But I’m in a position where the bad and bothersome former boss (let’s call her Elf-On-The-Shelf) won’t let ME go. I got promoted, to a different team but still in the same department, earlier this year. Since I’m still only a few desks away, she’s taken for granted that I am still a resource that she can (heavily) rely upon. And I’m not.

    My new boss (Mrs. Claus) is awesome but under a great deal of pressure from the HigherUps on a Big Project that was already in progress when I transitioned – so while she’s been setting boundaries and interceding on my behalf a lot, she hasn’t always been present in the office when Elf stomps on those boundaries and acts as if she still has agency over my career – demanding that I help her with her projects and deadlines. I need to be the one to enforce what Mrs. Claus has set up while there are off-site meetings etc., and I truly have tried my best.

    Here’s an analogy: Elf and I are runners out on a long road (think Route 66?). She started 100 miles ahead of me, and I had a stone in my shoe for the first 20 miles, so it took me a long time to catch up, but once I found my stride, *without needing to increase my pace* I’ve overtaken and I’m leaving her in the dust behind me. Mrs. Claus has set up a different path off the main road for me to follow, but it intersects with the original route very regularly and for extended stretches, at least initially. Unfortunately, Elf managed to get a tight grip of my running vest before I reached the first right turn and try as I might, I can’t quite pull away hard enough for her to lose hold. She’s been *told* to let go, and I’ve even tried slapping her hand, but it doesn’t seem to have any effect. Her arm stretches while I’m on the new path and she tugs just enough to make me lose balance and stumble.
    I now see looking back, that Elf had also been throwing caltrops into the path in front of me when I first started showing signs of outpacing her – only her aim’s not good and she has been standing on them too and leaning on me whenever she does so. It’s like being in the grip of a desperate octopus (yeah – broke the analogy completely here, unless there are octopi in Oklahoma?)

    I’m in the office until the close of business on Christmas Eve – 5 pm. So is Elf. Mrs. Claus is not in at all (more off-site in-person meetings) but has given me the go-ahead for finishing at lunchtime if I get my work on the main project done (which I’m almost certain to do). I’m just apprehensive that Elf will try lumping some of *her* project work on me to be done in the afternoon.
    An additional point of clarification – Elf has also openly blamed me (to the HgherUps, but in my presence and acting as if I wasn’t there) for her team missing deadlines because I’ve moved on. Those caltrops from the poor analogy? Yeah, they’re MY fault.

    At this point, I’m hoping 2020 will be the year that Elf has the boundaries slammed in front of her by the HigherUps (the Big Project has been all-consuming for over a year, but there is an end in sight, while my ‘little’ problem is only 8 weeks old). My bigger problem is that I have now lost ALL respect I had for Elf – and I’ll still need to keep working professionally with her, even with full boundaries in place.

    Merry Christmas Everyone!

    1. LQ*

      I’m Mrs Claus for someone right now. Her Elf can try to blame her for things but it’s literally laughable. All the higher ups know, getting rid of Elf isn’t an option because it’s not. The biggest thing I’ve been saying is “She’s not the boss of you, I’m the boss of you.“ You don’t have to jump because she tells you to, if she tells you to jump, tell her that Mrs Claus said not to and that she’ll have to talk with Claus on that. Her Elf can try to come to me and get her to do something, but I’ll make that decision and only if it’s actually what makes sense. But you can 100% blame Mrs. Claus. Just getting her to stop thinking of Elf as…sort of relevant at all helped. She’s not your boss. Sure you’ve got to be professional. But you don’t have to do the work she gives you. “Sorry I’m really busy.” “That sure sounds like a good idea, Mrs Claus said anything new to my plate needs to go through her right now.” When you leave you don’t have to let her know (unless you actually do, in which case TELL don’t ask), just leave. The busy-ness of Mrs Claus is actually in your favor here too. Elf will have to expose herself to someone who is under a lot of pressure and in the middle of something for the Higher Ups. Go ahead Elf, come to me to complain how you need one of my best people right now, come at me, it’ll be fun.

      She’s not the boss of you! :)

      (I’m super weirdly delighted by your names and visuals here!)

    2. What’s with Today, today?*

      ”I’m out at noon today, sorry!”
      And then leave at noon.
      Your boss supports you and elf has been told to stop. If you let her lump her project(s) on you in the afternoon, that’s a you problem. Just leave. Your boss gave you the okay.

      1. Possibly Enough Detail to be Identified?*

        I think what I probably should have added is that, because I transitioned over only 8 weeks ago, Elf was my boss for half of the appraisal year. This means that her feedback at the *end* of the appraisal year will still have a massive impact on any end of year bonuses and raise considerations (Where I am, I can’t just ask for a raise outside of the appraisal window, and any negotiations are *heavily* weighted by the appraisal feedback – to the point where it’s not really a negotiation). So, yes, anything brand new I can, and do (sometimes successfully) push back on – she just keeps landing her original project work on me, and I’m nervous that this will translate to “Failed to meet expectations” in certain areas of my appraisal.

        TL; DR version – it’s like a dysfunctional family relationship where Elf knows exactly which ones of my buttons to push. If guilt trips earned air miles, I’d be flying past Santa!

        1. Tau*

          Ah, crap.

          TBH I think it’s time to have a conversation with your new boss about this. You can go to her and say Elf still keeps asking you to work on her project, you’re pushing back but you’re worried about the impact it’s going to have on your year-end review. Potentially there’s something she can do to mitigate that, or maybe there are processes in place to handle this sort of situation.

          In general, I think Mrs Claus really needs to step in here: have a serious conversation with Elf going “I need PEDtbI to be working 100% on my stuff for now, so she won’t be able to take on any work for your team. I’m sorry if this wasn’t clear before! I’ve discussed this with her as well.”

          And then, anytime Elf wants you to do something, hide behind your new boss. “Sorry, Mrs Claus has asked me to focus solely on my new tasks.” Or even “I’d love to help but you’ll need to run that by Mrs Claus first!” “Mrs Claus was getting frustrated with not having an overview of what I was working on so she wants all my tasks to come via her, if you want me to work on that you’ll have to ask her”. Hopefully, if you can frame it as “oh, I would help, but I’m not allowed! I’m so sorry!” it should limit the impact on your review.

          Honestly, I think one of the jobs of a manager is to be the bad guy you can point to in this situation. Here’s hoping Mrs Claus will step up for you.

        3. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Have you talked with Mrs. Claus specifically about your worries where your end of year appraisal is concerned? If she knows ahead of time that you’re worried Elf might lowball you on your evaluation in retaliation for your behavior now that you no longer report to her, she may be able to take some proactive steps. Where I work, if you have more than one manager during your evaluation period, both of those managers have to contribute to your evaluation, so it’s possible Mrs. Claus would already have access to whatever Elf would be submitting, and she could raise up red flags for her higher ups before anything is official. Tell Mrs. Claus what your fears are here and see what she can do to keep them from happening.

          And as far as Christmas Eve is concerned, I agree with the other commenters. Just say “Oh, I wish I could help, but Mrs. Claus already gave me my assignment for the day and approved me leaving at noon, so I won’t have time to get to it.”

          1. PossiblyEnoughDetailToBeIdentified*

            Actually – I already have an update!
            Mrs Claus had two meetings cancelled today, so she’s been in the office when Elf phoned from a conference room to give me direction on how to do the next part of her project (which had been pre-agreed with Mrs Claus, as I’m the only one in the department with the prior experience in one small but critical part for getting to the next milestone, but it’s the last time I *should* be involved and Mrs Claus wasn’t happy about lending me out). Elf had been sewing her caltrops again, and I groaned on ending the call when I realised I’d have to undo what she’d done in order to to my bit. In my frustration, I voiced exactly this, together with a laugh that might have sounded more hysterical than humorous. And immediately inner groaned when I realised Mrs Claus had been listening to the entire thing!

            But it was okay! It seems there is no love lost between Mrs Claus and Elf, and Mrs Claus confided in me that Elf is overstepping boundaries *in other departments as well*. This explains a lot – I used to wonder why part of my original role involved shovelling reindeer poop from the path, when it should have been Rudolph’s job not to poop there in the first place. Turns out, Rudolph claimed he had never really been told this information, because Elf, in an attempt to make *and keep* herself important to the company, had decided it was her team’s role to clean up after him, instead of getting him to do it right! Which meant that Elf had her team making toys AND clearing reindeer poop AND baking mince pies AND building snowmen! Instead of staying her own lane, she was too afraid of becoming irrelevant, especially since Mrs Claus’s team (after this Big Project) is going to be responsible for overseeing the quality of the toys being made, and Elf’s circle of influence was shrinking. We’ve also had such a turnover of staff recently that very few managers realise that they should be doing the work instead of Elf (Except for Rudolph, who should have worked it out, and I’d like to stick the shovel up his shiny nose!)
            To that end, Mrs Claus has agreed with the HigherUps that in the new year, the business process are going to be updated (some of them are seven years old and refer to software we don’t even use any more!) and and formally redistributed to all departments. Which means that if Elf decides to build a snowman without the immediate prior agreement of *her* boss – she’s going to be in real trouble. Maybe not managed out, but certainly having her circle made even smaller. And she certainly can’t ask me to get involved.

            As far as the appraisal is concerned, I had a casual chat with my friend in HR who confirmed that HR have already received positive feedback on me from Elf from back before the promotion had even been thought of (not just for me, for *anyone* to get), so assuming I don’t screw up and get positive feedback from Mrs Claus, they already have enough evidence weighted in my favour to counter any “Fail to achieve” attempts in the last few months of the appraisal window.

            Oh, and now I can work from home on Christmas Eve! With Elf, it’s out of sight, out of mind – if she doesn’t see me in the office, she can’t give me any work!

            A *very* Merry Christmas to all!

  54. Jaid*

    With the Executive Order signed to give Christmas Eve off for government employees, I decided to put in for PTO for Monday. This gives me a five day weekend. Golly, whatever will I do?

  55. Leona*

    In the new year, we will have TWO infants in our office (yay, no paid maternity leave at all). I haven’t worked in an office environment before, much less one with babies, and I’m wondering how I as a coworker can support the new moms in the office! Anyone have tips, experiences, do’s or don’ts for sharing office space with little ones?

    1. Rebecca*

      This makes me sad. I remember how I felt after giving birth, and there was no way I could have gone to my office job with a newborn. I had 6 weeks off at half pay, and I was exhausted even at that. When I went back to work, I was exhausted still, but I didn’t have any vacation or PTO time available, as I was a relatively new employee and their draconian leave policy was 1 week (5 days) vacation at 5 years, 10 days at 10 years, etc.

      It’s kind of you to think about this – maybe offer to get things from the printer, refill a water bottle, pull out files from a bottom drawer, that type of thing? And ask if there’s anything else – again, you are very kind to think of this.

    2. Midge*

      Is babies-at-work something your company has done before, and/or have they planned it out?

      I would hope there is some planning coming from the top, because there should be contingency plans for who is designated to help take a baby when the parent is in a meeting or needs an extra hand to eat lunch or something. You could work that out and volunteer yourself, but ideally there would be a system in place, and managers/supervisors would be involved/notified so everyone is on board and understands who is helping and what strains that might temporarily place in their workload.

      But in general, if you are interested in helping let the parents know that you will often be available to take baby for a bit if they need a hand, or even babysit the monitor while baby is taking a nap. The new parents will still probably be figuring out the logistics that work for them in terms of nursing, pumping, bottles, routines with baby, etc. So let them take the lead — every baby is different and it can be hard for them to predict what having the baby at work will be like until it is happening.

    3. Fellow Traveler*

      I had to bring my baby to work, when he was six weeks old, and one thing I appreciated was when my co-workers included me in things like lunch and coffee runs. Like if it was lunch time and I was nursing, they said, “We can wait for you and go together.” even if I said they didn’t have to. Being the only parent at work can be isolating, and it was nice to still feel like I was still part of the team. I’m sure it depends on your work place culture and the parents, but for me i was glad that people cooed over my baby while acknowledging that what I was doing was hard, and at the same time treated me like nothing has changed and trusted that I was going to get the job done. That is I didn’t need to be handled with kid gloves, but I did need people’s confidence.
      Maybe make sure there is a place to change the baby and stash diapers and wipes.
      There is an episode of the Podcast The Longest Shortest Time that talks about babies in the workplace:
      https://longestshortesttime.com/episode-143-its-a-real-mother-part-3-the-cliff/

  56. Christmas Flip*

    I’ve come here before to ask about dealing with a bullying supervisor. While I don’t have a solution yet, I will say that it’s lead to comedy: bullying supervisor put Christmas cards in people’s areas before they came in, and I went to open it without knowing who it was from …. when I saw the handwriting, I flipped it out of my hands a la the 3 Stooges while making a face. I eventually had to pick it up, and I hid it in a desk drawer to protect myself from the vibes.

    1. SarahKay*

      I’ve just read it, after seeing your link. It’s really horrific. I mean, seriously, what is wrong with the CEO? How can someone behave so appallingly to their staff?

  58. George*

    Remember the person whose Secret Santa gave an adult toy? Well somebody in our office White Elephant gift exchange put BDSM paraphernalia in theirs. Due to the nature of the swap, nobody knows who put it there. I am very glad I didn’t participate.

    1. irene adler*

      There’s joke gifts where everyone gets a laugh and then there’s this where there’s awkwardness. I feel bad for the recipient of this gift. Don’t do that to co-workers.

      1. George*

        This was the sort of thing where everyone puts a gift on the table and then each person gets a turn to open a gift or ‘steal’ an already opened one… So totally anonymous and completely public unwrapping where it is expected that you show what you got in case someone wants to steal it later.

    3. Elenna*

      Ew. Even among people who want BDSM paraphernalia, I can’t imagine there are many who would want to get it during an office gift exchange…

  59. UShoe*

    About a year ago I left my job in fairly high-level agency role where I had to balance multiple clients (some of which I was much more passionate about than others) and took a step down/sideways into an in-house role where I spend all my time working on the thing I’m passionate about. However, now I don’t lead a team/manage anyone anymore and because there’s only two of us in the department (me and the department head) rather that the 3-5 person teams I used to work in I’m back doing a lot of the basic admin parts of the role and little-to-no big picture/strategic stuff like I used to (my new boss just doesn’t think/work that way).

    I do enjoy my new job, it’s interesting and I get to work with great people and my work-life balance is soooooooo much better than it’s ever been. But does anyone have any advice on what I can do to retain the skills that I’m not using (management, strategy, crisis thinking, lateral thinking)?

    My next step will likely be into a very specific type of role (I just had an interview for but wasn’t appointed) and they’re few and far between so moving on isn’t really an option yet.

  60. So anon today*

    I posted two weeks ago about being the incoming chair for a local business organization, the incoming chair-elect, Lulu, (we were both to start our terms January 1) and her husband have a fairly new baby, a few months old, but during a lunch date recently, she confided in me her husband (we’ll call him Dante) Has been having an on and off affair with his married boss (Brook Lynn) for several years. Lulu was sabotaging Dantae’s work, which concerned me about her being chair-elect of our chamber of commerce. The husband’s business is not a member. I have an update.

    Lulu sent me an email on December 10, telling me she was leaving Dantae. She put in her notice at her job but used PTO to leave immediately, which made her ineligible to serve as chair-elect because we represent our businesses. She and the baby are staying with her parents in a town about an hour away. The problem was ultimately solved. We scrambled, and a new chair-elect was chosen.

    The same day, my cousin died unexpectedly, and I had to travel to the service, and the rest of the week was a total blur. The service was a week ago today.

    I hadn’t included this in my original post, but we live in a small town, and word typically gets around quick. I’m also in a civic organization with Dante and know him on a strong acquaintance level, and know his boss , Brook Lynn, just a little bit. Their company is not a part of our business organization.

    When I got back to work this past Monday, I started to hear that Lulu was “crazy,” and Dantae was ”having” to divorce her. I heard it several times from several people. My head wanted to explode. On Wednesday, our civic organization met for our weekly lunch. Dante and I were at the same large table, and I overheard him trashing her again! Now, when I tell you what I said next, please understand I have the political capital in all
    aspects of my life to get away with it. I know my face had to have turned bright red, and I said:

    “Dante, did you know Lulu and I had gotten fairly close during the past three months? We’ve had lunch at least twice a month.”
    D: “Uh, no.”
    “We did. She confided in me quite a bit, and I really don’t think you need to talk about her this way. **long awkward silence** Oh, and please tell Brook Lynn I said hello.” The look on his face said it all, he knows that I know.

    And I got up and walked to another table. One of my friends who was also at the original table called me after and said he didn’t say another word at all throughout the entire lunch.

    Lulu sent me a text yesterday that just said “Thank you,” so I’m guessing someone told her. I wish her all the best moving forward.

    1. irene adler*

      I think you handled that rather well. Classy even.

      Got your point across without having to stoop to his level and resort to trashing him. Hopefully, he’ll keep his trap shut re: Lulu. If nothing else, there’s a kid involved here. Kid does not need to have a parent who publicly trashes their other parent. Yes, the kid is an infant, but gossip does tend to linger.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      You did a really good job handling that uncomfortable situation.

      (Also, hello fellow General Hospital viewer!)

  61. irene adler*

    I was told during a job interview: “we value diversity.” But no specifics or metrics were mentioned.

    So, in your experience AAM commentariat, what does “diversity” actually mean?

    How does a company know that it is diverse? Is there a measurement of some kind that is taken? If so, how?

    For additional context, this was one of the very first things the interviewer said to me. I am over 50, female, with a very long work history, which I take pains to avoid revealing on my resume. When she first met me at the interview, she seemed surprised. I guess I was not what she expected.

    1. Argh!*

      I think a statement like that should followed by “Oh really? Tell me more!”

      Because it’s boilerplate language that everyone has to say whether it’s the truth or not. My current grandboss says the same but it’s very clear he has no idea what diversity is. If someone with a foreign-sounding last name can pull off the trick of being identical in every way besides their country of origin, they will be happy. If they are actually different from the local (provincial) culture, they will not be.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! That will be my exact tactic the very next time I’m told about a company’s diversity. Thank you!!

    2. StellaBella*

      First, sorry if the experience you had was a bit … odd, for her to say that at first.

      Diversity can’t be, as you noted, talking points without metrics and without being embedded in the core values and results of the firm. If they say this, you can follow up with questions like, ‘oh that is good to hear can you share with me how you have managed to employ a diverse workforce and what metrics you use to ensure you are hiring. from a diverse field of candidates and where you search for them?’ but yeah …. it means to me the following:
      -all levels of the org are diverse and all levels have balanced numbers of men and women in them and that they also have good policies on not discriminating against trans folks or the other protected classes too.
      -ethnic and cultural diversity are important benchmarks to add, along with the above
      -diversity cannot mean paying diverse people less
      -how does a firm measure the impact that diversity brings to their bottom line? How are their customer orientation numbers, employee satisfaction numbers, is diversity included in the growth strategy?
      -look up some of the diversity reports from consulting firms and you can find measures on how to validate diversity initiatives

      In the end did you get the job?

      1. irene adler*

        First, thank you for those excellent talking points/things to consider! I’m going to use them for future interviews.
        And no, I did not get the job.

        The hiring manager seemed to be obsessed with what year I graduated from college, why I studied subject areas related to the job (this was a lab job but I have certs in Quality Assurance and Regulatory Affairs) and why I wanted to work in the lab given my current job title is Supervisor. Yes I explained all. I like lab work best, my current job is 80% lab work in spite of the title and I like to know about topics that are tangentially related to my job. My current company is shaky financially and I’d like to work for a more solid company.

        I think she was scared that I might be smarter than she was. In the end, I received an email from HR explaining that I lacked specific skills. These skills were not listed in the job description nor were they asked about in the 4 interviews I did for the job. But that’s usually the message I get from HR depts. after interviews. So I’m not surprised.
        Thank you for asking.

    3. Lora*

      HAHAHAHAhahahahahaahhhhhh…

      Okay, I am in engineering where I have frequently been the only woman in the room. And I’m white, so. In my field, “diversity” mostly means “we have one woman, and a bunch of Asians on H1b visas.” It also tends to mean, “we pay substantially below the market rate.”

      I’ve been in organizations that swore, up and and down, they Valued Diversity. In an organization of 600 employees – they had two African Americans, both women, one of whom was a temp whose contract didn’t get renewed even when they weren’t able to replace her. They had about 10 Asians, three of whom quit as soon as they could. They had 1 Latino employee, who managed building maintenance contracts. They routinely pushed out women over 40, to the point that they ended up replacing the head of HR with an actual lawyer to deal with all the legal crap that resulted from their hiring and firing practices. In an organization of 100 employees – 3 Latino employees, 1 African employee, 1 Asian employee (as in, the Latino guys were citizens and the others were visiting on H1b visas). The African employee was incredibly qualified and performed well enough to be promoted into management, but when an opening that would have been perfect for her became available, they gave the job to a white guy with NO experience either in that particular technical specialty OR in management. But they reckoned they were very diverse: they had two LGBT folks!

      In a huge major corporation you’ve definitely heard of, their Valued Diversity consisted entirely of, they had posters up in the hallways about diversity, which had pictures of different color Muppets. Maybe a Fraggle or two. Yeah. They also had several EEOC complaints and a handful of discrimination lawsuits at any given time, so…

      Any time a company tells you they value something, ask how much they’ve budgeted for it. You want to know what a company values, their budget distribution will tell you what they really value. It doesn’t cost much to host a LGBT+ Support Meeting the second Tuesday of the month, or have a Women In ______ group that meets to listen to the occasional motivational speaker. It doesn’t cost much to throw a Chinese New Year luncheon and post the pictures on LinkedIn. It costs a lot more to revamp your entire hiring and promotion process, commission a third party salary review and adjust salaries upwards to fix discriminatory pay, and fire managers who behave in a discriminatory way to employees.

      1. annakarina1*

        I had a brief contract job at a museum years ago where the art was by a biracial artist, but that the office staff was primarily made up of white people, with a couple of Asian staffers, and that any black or brown people were working visitor services or maintenance jobs. I’m white, and it had put me off to see that big divide, and this was the kind of place that would think they were liberal, but clearly had a race divide between the people in curatorial/executive positions and the people in service positions. I ended up being fired after a few months because I wasn’t a good fit for my job, but I also couldn’t get into the culture fit for the place because of how messed up it felt to me.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      1) Check the company’s upper management, it’s usually available on the web page (check for [CompanyName] executives). Ideally, you’ll see 30% women (not just VP of HR!), and a decent smattering of PoC – 10% minimum, I’m happier when I see 20%. For example, Cisco lists 18 execs – 6 women, 3 PoC (15%). For a tech co, that’s really good.
      2) Ask them how they measure / track / encourage diversity. Industry standards include % hired, % in management, retention (avg time spent at company), any company-sponsored interest groups (ie, membership in Natl Soc of Black Engineers, for tech cos, or in-company LGBTQx alliances).

      Unfortunately, support for gender / racial diversity does not always translate to support for age diversity (lookin’ at you, IBM age discrimination lawsuit!), but these’ll help you see who’s doing lip service and who’s taking it seriously.

  62. WineNot*

    So I have GOUT and I wanted to talk about it because it has SUCH a bad stigma around it as being “the kings’ disease” etc. It started a week ago, and has been the strangest week. I typically stand all day every day at my desk at work, but I have been sitting all week. So every single person that has walked by my desk and found me sitting has commented on it. So I will tell them “I hurt my foot, just giving it a rest”, and they will ask “what did you do to it?” so then I just have to tell them I have The Gout. They’re all shocked.

    I don’t eat a lot of the things on the “causes of Gout” list. I only eat Chopped Liver during the Jewish holidays. I have maybe 4 drinks a week. No red meat, very little sugar, no soda. Yes, I love my seafood, but I swear I’ve only had 5 oysters this quarter!

    My dad has gout and he had very similar, healthy eating habits before his first attack. After lots of research and a couple of doctor visits this week, we’ve learned that it is actually very hereditary. So now I have my dad apologizing not only for gifting me with my wide feet, my sense of humor, and my Type A personality, but also now Gout. Lovely! Anyone else dealing with this awful arthritis?

      1. WineNot*

        But I really like my parents! Also I thought it was in there, but I am a 27-year-old girl. Basically the demographic least likely to get gout.

        1. Lyudie*

          I wonder if it’s your age that’s shocking people. I really didn’t know what gout was, just a vague idea of an older-person thing, then I worked with a guy in his early 30s who had gout. I am not sure how much the average person knows about it, but maybe I am just extra unknowledgeable lol

          1. Gumby*

            Yeah, it’s the age thing. I had bursitis when I was in my 20s. I walked around all the time talking about how I was an octogenarian in disguise.

        2. WineNot*

          It’s definitely my age and the fact that our office is very open and personal so they know pretty much exactly what I put into my body every day and none of it screams Gout! Oh well.

    2. Jaid*

      My BFF gets it occasionally. She takes cranberry supplements, eats dried cranberries, etc. on the regular.

      Ah, genetics.

    3. Legally a Vacuum*

      Ouch- I don’t have gout but I do have a rare, scary-sounding inflammatory disease. I usually skip naming it just note I have a flair up of a medical condition b/c the wtf looks are a bit much.

    4. fposte*

      You can just say you have inflammatory arthritis, since that’s what gout is.

      (Essayist Calvin Trillin had a funny piece about the social problems of having gout, and he envisioned a PSA about renaming it DJD, for Dr. Johnson’s disease.)

    5. Construction Safety*

      I get it irregularly (think less than once/year). Stay hydrated, always. If it becomes a regular thing, allopurinol (Rx) seems to work with little side effects. Mine seems to be shrimp related.

    6. Llama Face!*

      My sympathies! I have a type of inflammatory arthritis which is similar to but not exactly the same as gout- though a bad clinic doctor told me I had gout at first (my regular doctor did a more thorough check and confirmed it wasn’t and that some obvious symptoms didn’t match). I’m actually planning to go to a physiotherapist because my arthritis may be at least partly related to some hip and foot issues and I’m hoping that working on that aspect will help with the root causes and reduce my flareups.

      Things that have helped me so far:
      NOT trying to just push through it. As soon as my toe starts twingeing I give my feet a break. I take a prescription anti-inflammatory as needed (naproxen) and I avoid wearing any shoes that put pressure on my toe area. I elevate my foot when I’m sitting. I tried to push through once and ended up having to take a week off work because my foot got so swollen and painful that I couldn’t walk on it at all. Alternating heat/cold packs (10 min at a time) seems to help a bit when it gets bad.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Specific workplace advice: It can be helpful to talk to your employer about accomodations like wearing comfy supportive shoes or switching out tasks that involve a lot of standing. Since it looks like you got hit with the genetics stick and aren’t just a port-swilling, game meat and cheese-eating british lord (lol stereotypes), changing your environment is the thing you have at least some control over.

        1. WineNot*

          “Luckily” my job involves standing (or with gout this week, sitting) at a computer making sure the people of America get their wine! So there isn’t anything that I can’t fully do because I’m limping but I definitely had my leg up on my desk for a couple days.

          I took it easy this week, pretty much went home and read every night and was down for the count by 9pm . I took Aleve for a couple days, then Indomethacin once I went to the doctor and 3 times a day since. I also have underlying hyperparathyroidism and am going to have surgery for that in early 2020, so I too am hoping that the gout is miraculously related to my thyroid glands!

    7. KoiFeeder*

      I’ve got my own autoimmune nonsense to deal with, but I can sympathize! I think gout actually shares a medication with my own condition, but I think it also has to be severe to get that prescription, and I dearly hope yours isn’t! Like Vacuum, I usually just say that a medical condition is flaring up and not to worry about it. People don’t really need to know much more than that, and it’s totally acceptable to call them out if they start prying.

    8. emmelemm*

      My mom gets something called “pseudo gout” which is also really, really bad. Gout is caused by uric acid crystals? if I’m remembering correctly – building up in your joints. She has a different kind of crystals building up in her joints, but same effect.

      She’s a vegan who’s literally never had an alcoholic drink in her life.

      1. WineNot*

        Crazy that it just hits some people, even people who’ve never drank or stuffed their faces with red meat! My doctor thinks it might be pseudo-gout related to another health issue that I am taking care of soon, but I think it’s a toss-up whether it is pseudo or regular.

    9. Anon to protect the spouse*

      My spouse has hereditary gout. Takes allopurinol (sp?) for it and it is completely under control. The first week on the drug was hard, as it worked all the uric acid build-up out of his joints, which caused serious pain. But now he is free of the serious gout pain, as well as some smaller aches and pains he didn’t realize were connected. See your doctor!

    10. Jemima Bond*

      Not dealt with it myself but from what I hear (from a relative and a former colleague) it hurts like a b*****d so you have my heartfelt sympathy and a very gentle hug (not touching near any joints!)

  63. Lyudie*

    I think I’m going to ask my manager about moving to a new project next year. We only have two full time people and one mostly full time person to create training for what’s supposed to be one of the company’s flagship products. We had hoped to get at least a full-time offshore person (we have a couple of part-time and/or occasional-during-busy-times offshore resources) but my manager doesn’t seem to think we’re likely to have that again. It’s very frustrating, it’s a huge complex product we don’t have tons of knowledge of due to the complexity/hugeness and the fact that it’s very industry-specific (let’s say llama grooming, where the software handles grooming appointments, billing, records of all llamas that have been groomed and their health issues and grooming needs, complex security rights due to government regulations on llama grooming, etc.). We provide training on the software but my coworker and I don’t have any llama-related background, we’re training experts, so we rely heavily on other teams, and communication is not always great. Maybe other projects wouldn’t be any better…none of our teams are more than a couple of people and we are probably understaffed in general. I don’t really have a question I guess, just venting a bit. I’m out for the year after today and I hope the break will help my mindset.

  64. You made it awkward*

    So, I need advice on how to handle a situation that is highly likely to arise in the near future.

    I couple of weeks ago I have received a very inappropriate text message from a former employee. I used to manage the guy for several years, then he left the company for a promotion, but we remained friendly in a professional way, and would occasionally text each other technical questions or quick updates on common acquaintances. So, that’s what this particular conversation started out as, and then he randomly decided to confess his long standing feelings for me. For context, both of us are married, with very young children, and there are some other factors that give this confession a whole another layer of “Yeek!” factor. I shut it down immediately, he apologized, and we haven’t talked since then.

    Well, there are several large professional conferences coming up soon that both of us are likely to attend. The probability of us running into each other is very high. I’m prepared to act cordial, neutral, and professional. Ideally, I want him to say hi, make some small talk on a work related subject, and then not approach me for the rest of the conference. But what if he has other plans? It wouldn’t be too bad if he ignores me completely, but I would likely have to address questions about that from mutual acquaintances. But what if he decides that we are still “friends” and tries to sit next to me at lunch or hang out together at the reception? Worst case scenario, what if he brings up the subject again? How do I shut this down without making a scene?

    1. fposte*

      First, I don’t think avoiding making a scene has to be the goal. As your username suggests, if he can’t back off until things get loud, that’s on him, not you.

      Anyway, I’d name the problem. “Fergus, I’m not comfortable socializing with you here after the inappropriate text. Please keep your distance from me at this event.” If he goes for hurt and “But can’t we still be friends?” note that he’s not backing off when told to, which is significant, and the answer can be “Not if you don’t back off when I ask you to” and you can relocate yourself.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        All the this. Consider texting him before the conference with your ideal scenario. “Fergus, I want to make sure we’re on the same page at the conference. After your text, we can’t be friends, but we can be professional. At the upcoming conference, the way I see that is a brief hello, and then leave me alone the rest of the time.” DO NOT soften it, and his reaction will give you some indication of how nervous to be about his behavior at the conference.

        If you don’t go proactive with a pre-conference text, then practice scripts like fposte’s with your husband or a friend, to overcome the ‘freeze’ response.

        Also have some scripts for people asking about a cooling-off between you – something like, ‘we’re headed in different directions”

        1. valentine*

          I want to make sure we’re on the same page at the conference.
          The opposite way, this would be forced teaming. Here, it gives him some of what he wants, which is the idea that the two of you area team (struggling with your passion *vomit*).

          the way I see that is a brief hello, and then leave me alone the rest of the time.
          This also works for him because you said he could say hello and you’re not going to make a scene about it (when only the two of you know that it’s the fact it’s from him that’s the trouble), so he can casually say hello in passing 53 times and claim he didn’t recall the rule’s details and can you possibly meet so he can apologize.

          Are there a few people you can tell so they can warn you if he’s around and possibly run a subtle interference? If he speaks to you, you can say, “This is inappropriate,” then go stand next to someone who will back you up if he gets shirty.

    2. Holy Moley*

      Ick. I had a former colleague do the same thing to me about a year after we stopped working together (I moved). I can completely imagine how I would feel seeing him in person (upset, angry, all the emotions). I think the best advice is to be firm with him if he speaks with you and walk away. “I have nothing to say to you, go away.”

    3. LilySparrow*

      If he wants to be friendly, you trat him like anyone who has glommed onto you harder than is welcome – keep the conversation short and excuse yourself to go talk to someone else.

      If he wants to talk about his feelings, you say, “I told you no already. Don’t ever bring it up to me again.”

      And then you get up quietly and go to the bathroom. When you come back, you sit somewhere else.

      That’s not making a scene. It’s moving away from someone who is bothering you.

      It is extremely unlikely anyone with relatively normal emotional limits would try again after that, but if he did, that’s when you unabashedly make a scene.

  65. Middle Manager*

    I have a staff member with very low initiative/problem solving has an ongoing issue that she’s been asked to work out. I did sit down and explain what that meant like: google a technology problem to see if you can solve them yourself before asking me, identify problem areas/possible solutions and bring them up during our 1-1 meetings, etc. I very directly told her that taking initiative/problem solving did not mean ignoring the chain of command, which is taken really seriously in my government agency.

    Nonetheless, her attempts to “take initiative” have consistently included things like sending emails to senior management staff several pay grades above me without discussing it with me first or even cc:ing me, so that I end up finding out she’s made a request of them when they forward it to me about it. Or making changes to a form and sending it out to other staff before clearing it with me/my boss/other people involved in that work area. It has unfortunately not included things like googling how to convert files from word to PDF or update an excel formula, those still all come to me directly.

    She has overall poor judgement and is about to go back on a PIP, so I *think* this is about her judgement/listening skills/etc. I also don’t want to just blame her and not look at my possible role in issue. Hoping for some input on anything I could do better here. Any suggestions on good ways to communicate about this?

      1. Middle Manager*

        I do. We had the conversation again this week at her 1-1. I again told her that requests to our executive level staff need to be going through me first. She said she understood, but that’s not the first time, so we’ll see if it actually makes a difference.

        1. Legally a Vacuum*

          I really don’t think there is too much else you can do- you had the over-arching conversation, then you followed up pointing to specific examples of problematic behavior when they occurred. If she knows that specific behavior is serious and going to lead to a PIP, then it shouldn’t surprise her when it happens.

    2. qvaken*

      I’m a person who likes being informed of what “the rules” are so I don’t get caught off guard breaking a “rule” that I didn’t know about. I wonder if you could have a discussion with her about exactly what tasks fall within her scope and what she needs to contact you about. Like, make a list, and encourage her to participate in the discussion and help you brainstorm things.

      Also, might be good to make her aware of the roles of different people within your line of management and who she needs to approach for what issue. Maybe there are a couple of things for which it would be appropriate for her to approach higher-ups, but then I’m sure most (if not all) of it needs to go to you.

      Also also, if she gets results in a timely manner from contacting your higher-ups but doesn’t get results from contacting you, or she has to wait a long time for a response if she sends it straight to you… Well, I’d contact the higher-ups too.

      But you know your situation better than I do. Plus, I’m a long-time employee, no-time manager, so I’ve only got the one perspective.

      1. Middle Manager*

        She definitely doesn’t contact them because she can’t get an answer from me. I’m extremely accessible to her both in person and by email (arguably too accessible, since I reply to emails even on my days off, which is a separate self care issue for myself).

        We do have a list of what needs sign off, what doesn’t, but it’s hard to define concrete “rules” it down super specifically because so much of our work is 1 off stuff that isn’t neatly categorized. I like the suggestion of talking through it with her again though and getting her to brainstorm examples of what she can do on her own and what needs sign off. Maybe if she comes up with some examples herself it will stick with her a little better. Thanks!

    3. fposte*

      This might also be a time for “Last week we discussed that you weren’t to email Alesha or Bob without talking to me first, but yesterday you emailed Bob without talking to me first. Can you explain what happened there?” And listen to what she says–while it’s not likely to justify the action, it might give you some good insight into how correctable this behavior is.

    4. NW Mossy*

      Judgment is one of the most challenging things to coach, in my experience. It’s tied so closely to how our brains are wired and what thoughts cross our minds (or don’t) when considering a problem, and it takes a lot of practice and experience to develop it.

      One tactic that may work for the questions she asks is to turn yourself into a dry well – instead of providing an answer, consistently refer her to the next step you want her to take (look it up, ask someone else, etc.). I had a boss in my early days who had a rule that I could ask her any question I wanted as long as I could answer “what does [key reference] say?” first, and that’s stuck with me my entire career. She was always very kind about it, and very quickly trained me into fishing for myself first.

      That said, I think you’re going to have a difficult time with someone who struggles to navigate hierarchies and know when other people need to give input before a change is implemented. Understanding this easily is a form of social intelligence, which makes it hard for those that get it to explain to those that don’t. For this part, I’ll second the ever-wise fposte’s advice to ask her to explain her thought process on a situation she flubbed to better understand where the dots aren’t connecting.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Thanks. I like that tactic from your boss. I’ve tried to push her to do that by asking the question, but maybe I if I set it up ahead of time that when she comes to ask me the very first words out of her mouth should be, I’ve googled this and this is what I found…

        1. NW Mossy*

          That’s pretty much exactly how my conversations with that past boss played out! After about the third time of being gently referred back to do my homework first, my questions turned into “I looked at it and I’m interpreting it like this – does that make sense?” or “I’ve read it but I’m not sure how to apply it because my scenario’s got X and Y in it – how do we account for that?” From there, she was happy to help me work through more complicated questions – it was a great balance between autonomy and support.

  66. No desire to be a micromanager, but...*

    I have no desire to be a micromanager, but I have an employee who is very unreliable and sometimes lies or tries to cover for her own inaction by saying “I’m still waiting on x to get back to me”… only for me to later discover that the reason she is still waiting on that person to get back to her is because she hadn’t sent them an email with an inquiry several days ago (as she had promised she would) but rather just a minute ago after I followed up to check in on the status of it. This makes everything even more time sensitive and stressful for this project.

    Is it appropriate to be asked to be cc’ed on everything related to this project since she has a bad track record of actually doing what she says she will do in a timely fashion or until I nudge her about it? Or is there something less micro-managey, but that will still allow me to verify that things are getting done without constantly having to check in?

    1. irene adler*

      Can you ask this employee to give you a complete list of their tasks they need to do for the project? Have them give you a due date for each item on the list. Then you get to ask for updates for completion of each task (or she can alert you regarding completion of each task). And, if she’s late in completing said task, ask what her plan is for getting the next task(s) completed on time (you get to edit the plan if it’s not sufficient in your judgment). And for how she will endeavor to complete similar task the next time she needs to do it.

      This way there’s something measurable here: x days late with task#1, on time for task #2, y days late for task #3. Or, 3 out of 5 tasks were completed late. Her goal will be to get 1 out of 5 tasks completed on time for the next project. Or all tasks completed within 24 hours of due date. It will be up to her to find the way to achieve this. If she’s not able to improve, then maybe this isn’t the right job for her?

      1. No desire to be a micromanager, but...*

        I’ve created a shared spreadsheet that lists each task with a deadline on it with a column for her to note the date that she completes it, but she tends to miss those deadlines, which is why I constantly have to “check in” about the status of things. It’s only when I check in that she finally scrambles to do things. I think my biggest concern is the lying and attempts to shift the blame to other people, though.

        1. Policy Wonk*

          How about an end of day check-in? A 5-10 minute review of the spreadsheet and the activities she completed that day, including who she e-mailed, meetings scheduled or attended and the like. Not as micro-managey as cc’ing you on every e-mail, but a way to make sure she is on top of things.

          I agree with others that you need the big picture conversation about acceptable behavior and lying – and I think a PIP is also needed, but the daily check-in will at least get her on task in the short term.

    2. LQ*

      Can you have her do more project management structure around her work and give you transparency into it?

      Have a task list that you can see, or that you can review with her weekly. A kind of “the work isn’t done until you report on it” take. Report can be …take the next step, document it, update a task list. Something that creates an outcome that you can keep an eye on.

    3. Thankful for AAM*

      It sounds like you need to have a clear talk about the lying and make it clear that the deadlines are real deadlines and for her job to be secure she needs to meet them or be proactive about letting you know in advance when there will be a problem meeting them.

    4. NW Mossy*

      I think you name it for what it is. “I’m seeing a pattern from you that’s got me concerned. You tell me that you’re waiting on information and that’s why things aren’t moving, but I’ve seen a few situations recently where that just isn’t true. When I followed up with Fergus about why he hadn’t responded to you on the Singing Llama account, he told me that the email he got this morning was the first he’d heard that you needed something. Lucinda said something similar about the Yodeling Alpacas last week. What’s going on?”

      From there, a pivot into what you do expect: “Heloise, I expect that you do what you say you’re going to do, and that you’re honest about what you’ve done and what you haven’t. When you don’t follow through on your promises and then claim that’s someone else’s fault, I can’t trust you and neither can your colleagues. We have to be able to trust each other to work well together. Can you commit to following through and being honest going forward?”

      1. No desire to be a micromanager, but...*

        Thank you so much for this language! This is very helpful. I will definitely give it a try!

  67. Argh!*

    Any tips for scripts that are responses in the moment? I am good at saying the right things when I start a conversation, but I’m easily triggered by people derailing the conversation, or just plain saying “no” to an ask for a reasonable, quick, job-related thing, or otherwise throwing up a roadblock rather than being team-oriented. In my local culture, it seems that men can say almost anything to women and undermine our effectiveness, and most of the women are non-confrontational, deferential, helpful, and self-effacing. For example, in meetings some of the more successful women say “I feel that” instead of my usual “I think that…” I keep resolving to be more like “them,” but it’s hard to shake being “me.”

    I hate this job culture and I want to leave, but meanwhile, I could use some scripts to develop a workplace persona that fits in with a more 1950s model than what I’m used to.

    1. Aly_b*

      If they love authority so much, can you weaponize it? Eg, said in a very friendly tone: “oh, sure! I’ll just have (my manager) chat with (your manager) about who would be the better person to get us what we need for that. Thanks!”

    2. Avasarala*

      I’m not sure there is anything you can or should do in 2020 to make yourself smaller, weaker, and less of a threat to appease men at work who refuse to respect you. Some women have found that leaning into the stereotypes gets them ahead. OK fine. But not you, and you don’t have to do that. There are plenty of good jobs and good women who say “I think that” and get respect and success.

      Anyway, here’s what I might say if a conversation got derailed:
      “[Interrupting/jumping in at the end of their sentence] Yeah… to get back on track though, …”
      “Anyway, what I wanted to talk to you about was…”
      Or my favorite, after someone talks your ear off and you want to leave, “Well, I know you’re busy so I’ll let you go.”

      If someone refused to help me, my namesake would find some leverage to motivate them. Personally I either go high (“I know you’re busy but I would really appreciate this, thanks in advance!” “You’re so good at tea pouring/you’re so smart and talented, I know you could just whip it up in no time. Thanks!”) or go low (“That’s disappointing, I was hoping the Tea Pourer could pour tea better than I could!” “Oh, that’s not the response I was expecting. Usually you’re so helpful, bummer!”).

  68. Dork at Work, They Rhyme I swear*

    I’m a very high performing Individual Contributor in a niche, but valuable, technical field. I’m more than fed up with my current workplace (been there several years, gigantic company, you’ve certainly heard of it, blah blah) for a number of reasons, including lack of career progression, and bad work/life balance. My senior manager is batting to get a next-level IC job created so I can promoted into it, but I’m not so keen to stay here anyways.

    I have a small side business consulting in this technical field, and I think I could make it full time given my reputation in this field. It’s important to mention that my potential consulting clients are very limited without violating my current job’s employee rules. I would like to build out my client base to the point where it’s not foolhardy to go full-time independent consultant, preferably in a few years.

    I’ve applied to a couple jobs in this metro area, and am in the phone interview stages with them. Assuming both of them pan out, my options in the coming future could be:

    1) Take an internal promotion, get approximately $40K more in cash. WLB will still suck, but the job itself is fascinating, I have good coworkers and a good network in the company.

    2) Go to another company doing similar work, probably another $25K more in cash, longer commute (right now I have a 10-minute train ride to work). Almost no restrictions on who I could consult for – I’ve read their employee manual online. Would help build out my “brand” for work in this niche.

    3) Completely leave the niche and work in a more generic technical job. Commute would be the same as I have now, probably very reasonable hours, slightly more pay. Frees up a lot of time and mental energy for consulting with no restrictions on clients, but I would probably start to lose my “insider” experience edge.

    Long-term, I think I would really enjoy independent consulting, or at least, the upsides of it. I like problem-solving in this niche field, absolutely hate being required to get deeply involved in corporate politics, and would appreciate a job with more time and location flexibility.

    Any recommendations / thoughts / past experiences that people could share to help me make a decision?

    TLDR, fork in the road career wise for a technical specialist wanting to become an independent consultant

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Probably late to the party here, but #2 sounds like the way to go in order to maximize pay, maximize work/life balance, AND create space for you to grow your consulting practice with your extra time/mental energy.

      #3 sounds like what you should do if you want to leave the field, but you describe wanting to leave the culture of your current employer, not the work itself. #1 is what you do if you want more money (which may not happen) to put up with current workplace conditions, which you say you are “beyond fed up with.” Is an additional $40k enough to make you not-quite-fed-up-with current conditions? Or would you come to resent the status quo and feel obligated to stay for the $$?

      1. Dork at Work, They Rhyme I swear*

        Part of the fed-uppdedness is the lack of upward mobility as an IC – for better or worse I have a reputation as a “technical person” which is essentially a death knell for career growth at this company. So a promotion and more cash would help with that. But the WLB and extreme office politics will not go away.

  69. Saffron Sam*

    This is more of a story than advice as I’d say the law and my duty is pretty clear, but I’m having the oddest moment of group pushback. I know Allison oft recommends speaking up a group against ridiculous policies, but can we keep it to ridiculous policies, please?

    Employee went to HR over repeated moderate harassment over her faith (yes, she had tried to speak up for herself to the employees in question to reasonable effort before seeking help). Small group of employees were told to knock it off, to succinctly summarize.

    Small group of employees are trying to “push back”, saying the faith in question has “social and cultural acceptance of being mocked” and therefore they should be able to continue their behavior.

    1. Marthooh*

      Holy moly, your coworkers! I’m not sure if they’re saying “But everyone makes fun of Cthuluites!” or “We’ve always gotten away with mocking Cthulu!” Either way, you work with a pack of rules lawyers. How horrifying.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      No faith has the social and cultural acceptance of being mocked.

      Your coworkers need to be told to knock it off, and it needs to be made clear to them that if they don’t, it’s a clear cut case of insubordination that can and will lead to their termination. End of discussion. And then management needs to hold them to that.

      2. Fikly*

        It’s socially and culturally acceptable to mock many faiths, outside of the particular faith being mocked. Doesn’t make it ok, though.

    3. Thankful for AAM*

      I’d like to be a fly on the wall for a convo you have that goes like this:
      You: you want to continue to mock x for having y religion?
      Them: yes, we want to mock y religion.
      You: you want the company to say you can mock a religion at work.
      Them: yes!
      Crickets
      You: *accepts resignation letters

      1. Saffron Sam*

        So since I am the HR in question… That’s not far off from how things are going.

        It’s weirdly humorous.

        1. NW Mossy*

          “So you’re saying that the company should violate the law because you disagree with it? That’s an….. interesting argument.”

    5. Turtlewings*

      Wow. My mind is boggled that your coworkers think “but lots of other people make fun of them!” is an actual defense. What amazingly crappy people.

    6. Roy G. Biv*

      Wow. “Social and cultural acceptance of being mocked” could also apply to just about ANYTHING because of Comedy Central, South Park, HBO, etc. Perhaps all HR protections and polite behavior should be suspended, and we’ll let the “I was just joking, geez, lighten up, would ya? hunger games” begin. It will be just like my first real job in the ’80’s.

    7. Morning Reader*

      I am flabbergasted. What religion do they think it’s culturally acceptable to mock? Wiccans? Satanists? Muslims? Catholics? Religion in general c.f. the Sky Fairy? I have heard of all of these and can’t imagine any cultural acceptance of their mocking anywhere except perhaps an atheists convention. These people should be sent on a long business trip to somewhere their religion is in the minority. “Oh, you go to… church? Every… week? How quaint! Charlie, come here, you must meet this person, he practices the most charming custom in his native village. Do tell, do your people put cream of mushroom soup in everything? Fascinating.”

        1. What’s with Today, today?*

          All I can think of is The Book of Mormon, and how the Church buys so much ad space in the playbill.

      2. InsufficentlySubordinate*

        My guess would be Scientology, but it totally doesn’t matter which one; it’s inappropriate in the workplace.

    8. CatCat*

      “social and cultural acceptance of being mocked”

      What does that even mean? A lot of religions are mocked. I seriously doubt there is a universal social and cultural acceptance of it though. Yeesh.

      Also, even if that were the case, it doesn’t belong in the workplace and is not a defense to harassment!

    9. Admin of Sys*

      Wow. I mean, even for Pastafarianism and Erisian, it’s inappropriate to mock beliefs at work w/out the individual of said faith starting it.
      Maybe try pushing back with the concept that ‘cultural acceptance of being mocked’ is synonym for ‘unconscious bias’ and ‘systemic intolerance’ and is inappropriate in the workplace no matter what?

  70. Retail not Retail*

    How do you address sexist/homophobic comments when they’re coming from the only other lesbian on the team?

    Our six person team is mostly women but one of the 2 men is super sexist and I took her aside one day and said you know he’s really sexist right? She stopped talking as much around him naturally because he is so annoying.

    However. We also have a crew of guys on sort of work release. When she says stuff around them it’s like… these guys get kicked out for talking to a woman in their program. They’re prone to objectifying and immature statements (bare minimum that’s what she said). What’s the right way to object?

    (Additionally yesterday our one hispanic coworker said a racist slur against mexicans. How do you handle that when you’re white?)

    1. RoadsLady*

      The way I see it, the comments could fall under hostile work environment no matter who says them.

      Sure, there could be arguments for subcultural rights to say things about their own, but rarely would such apply at work.

      Stick to the phrasing, not the person.

    2. qvaken*

      I did once speak up about sexism in the office, when it was directed against another woman, and the other woman was fine with it. She became defensive protested that if she was okay with it then it shouldn’t be a problem. The two guys who were participating in it just looked awkward, one made a face at me as though I was the one causing the awkwardness, then they swivelled their chairs back towards their computers and got on with their work.

      So I guess you could take the approach of, I’m willing to make other people uncomfortable so I can speak up about this. Even if the people who – on the surface – should be your allies don’t support you.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        There’s still one woman on the crew who hasn’t shut down the sexist man so he’s “teasing” her and mangling her name. I objected in june when he did it to me and he stopped doing it to me. Everyone’s response is “if it doesn’t bother her don’t let it bother you”

    4. Retail not Retail*

      Lol one of the guys just asked me if i liked that’s what she said jokes and i said no and he said he’d cut them and other innuendo out around me!

      Like almost an AAM script except he’s not a reader of it since there’s no internet access in the program.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I’m not really following what happened with the sexist guy, but I gotta tell you from one white lady to another, policing the speech of a non white coworker and acting like you have the right to correct them or educate them on racism would NOT be a good use of your relative privilege.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        Very good point!!! It was just that it was a cavalcade of hateful speech all day – female coworker talking about how annoying women were, how annoying gay guys are, and then he said “there go the (slur for mexicans)” as the seasonal crew went by.

        It was just jarring and tiresome.

      2. Avasarala*

        There is a lot of racism between Spanish-speaking groups. Just because someone is POC doesn’t mean they’re allowed to use racist terms (or just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they can be transphobic etc.). Even being “self-deprecating” is not OK.

        It’s not about a white person teaching POC about racism, it’s about not allowing those terms and behaviors in the workplace (from anybody).

  71. Hills to Die on*

    Does anyone have experience with Cybersecurity? I am an operations project manager but I was thinking of getting an online degree in Cybersecurity. It seems to pay well – curious about anyone’s thoughts. TIA!

    1. Jellyfish*

      It’s a broad and rapidly growing field, and there’s a lot of projected need for cybersecurity professionals in both public and private jobs. Whether it pays well depends on who you’re working for and what you’re doing, but there’s certainly lots of potential there.
      You might look up UC Berkeley’s Center for Long Term Cybersecurity. The site has more of an academic focus, but it provides some good introductory information about the field.

  72. RoadsLady*

    Dilemma on behalf of the spouse:

    Husband was told he ought to apply for Job. Job is within Husband’s interests, skills, and career goals. Job would have moderate increase in pay/benefits.

    Job would also not be nearly as flexible as Current Job, something valuable to us at this time. Husband also, because of Long Dramatic Story, feels a certain sense of loyalty to Current Job and also greatly enjoys Current Job.

    Things Husband might want to ponder?

    1. irene adler*

      Long-term ramifications of staying at same job for long period of time. People wonder about your competency.

      I’ve been in the same job for over 20 years. No advancement or changes in title. Kinda hard to have those things in a company of 13 people. So when I interview for jobs, they wonder about my competency given the lack of promotions. Yes, I explain, but that doesn’t alleviate their concerns.

      Can hubby show that he is still growing career-wise at current job? This is one way to combat the competency issue. Does he get new projects and challenges? Is he provided with opportunities to acquire and use new skills? Might ask him to list these- like doing a resume. Do they match what’s listed in job requirements in the industry?

      Wouldn’t hurt to apply for the job. See how he measures up. He doesn’t have to take the job if it is offered. But it is a good way to gauge what he knows and learns what skills he lacks. Then he can at least find a way to acquire them. So if one day he does get laid off (heaven forbid!), he can show he has relevant skills for current job market.

    2. Natalie*

      Unless he met a stranger at a crossroads at midnight, applying doesn’t mean he’s signing some kind of blood oath to this new job. Each part of the process – application, interview request, job offer – is a point where he gets to make a decision about whether or not to proceed. So why not apply and see what he thinks if/when he’s asked to interivew?

  73. Ali G*

    So this is my pre-Holiday gripe. I recently updated Windows and apparently the result is Chrome no longer loads. For some reason when they gave me this laptop I started using Explorer, but then Explorer stopped being able to load Bored Panda. So I only used Chrome to read Bored Panda. Our IT department has basically said if you need Chrome they will fix it for you, but they aren’t doing a mass update because they are so backlogged on other things (one of our 2-person Team on site has been in the hospital and is very sick. We have like 10 staff that need to be upgraded because they are running Windows 7 which is about to be unsupported.). So I quietly stew about not being able to catch up on the latest interweb happenings during my lunch :(
    Who’s working next week? I’m WFH Monday and part of Tuesday, then no work until the 2nd!

    1. Rebecca*

      I’m still on Windows 7 Professional, and I think I’m one of the last ones. I’ve reached out to IT with multiple help desk tickets since this past Spring. I’m working a half day today, then I’m out until the new year, so someone needs to do something at some point. Honestly, I’m not worried about it. When my computer fails to work at all, I’ll have someone else put in a help ticket, and play games on my phone at my desk until it’s fixed. I’m truly over it.

    2. LQ*

      Don’t tell IT. But you can often download and use Chrome and Firefox without needing admin credentials to install. Not always, but it’s so useful when you need it.

      2. Ali G*

        Yeah – the problem I have is that I can’t uninstall it without an admin password, so when I try to reinstall it, it’s like “you already have it!” and then opens up my bad version.

    3. office cat*

      Could it be that your computer has Windows 10 in S mode? The S mode will only allow you to load Wondows apps.

      I just got a new (personal) Dell laptop and it came in Windows 10 S mode. I had to find instructions to switch it to Windows 10 Home version (easy).
      You may need IT dept help to do this with the work computer though.

    4. Fikly*

      Working next week and the week after, including Christmas and New Years. Part of having a job that needs 24/7/365 coverage! But I don’t actually mind it.

  74. Marianne Dashwood*

    Can anyone comment on commuting ~4 hours a day for grad school? There aren’t many programs local to me and I am unable to move, so I’m considering applying to one 2 hours away, which would require a 4-hour round trip. Classes would only be two or three days a week. I’m applying to two schools closer to me (~1 hour away) but don’t know if I should apply to this third one. Thoughts?

    1. Millennial Lizard Person*

      If you were accepted, would you go? 4 hours a day is a LOT of driving. I don’t know if you have other commitments, local friends you could stay with (eg if the class is Monday-Tuesday, you could stay over Monday night….) but that’s a hell of a commute.

      Can you do an online program? There are so many schools these days with online master’s, but those tend not to have research components.

      1. Marianne Dashwood*

        I would go if it was the only school I was accepted to out of the three I’m applying to; obviously, I prefer the ones closer to me. I’m just not sure if I should apply on the off chance it *is* the only school I’m accepted to. Does that make sense? The programs are really competitive so I want to hedge my bets. I can’t do an online program, unfortunately.

    2. Delta Delta*

      I commute about 1 1/2 hour each way a couple times a week for a particular part of my work. I have gotten to where I sort of don’t mind it, and I use the time to catch up on podcasts, phone calls with friends, etc. I would get super burned out if I had to do that every day, though.

      1. Marianne Dashwood*

        It would only be two or three days a week for a year. It sounds doable to me on paper but I do wonder if I’d get burned out.

    3. fposte*

      In the pre-online days we had a program specifically for people to commute in from long distances one day a week. It’s tough, but doable.

      My concern is that if you’re not talking a program with that in mind you have no control over when the classes are. What if one class you desperately need is M-W and the other is Tu-Th? What if it’s an evening class–are you comfortable driving home if you finish at 8? If you think you’d still be okay with those, I’d go ahead and apply and be ready for a lot of audiobooks.

      1. Marianne Dashwood*

        I emailed the program asking about the specific days/times of their schedule and am waiting to hear back. I already nixed another program close to that one because one day was 8 AM – 6 PM, which would be hard to do locally, let alone with a four-hour commute!

    4. ArtK*

      Have you looked at online programs or programs specifically intended for working people? You need to do your due diligence about the quality of the programs (watch out for the for-profits!). I have my MS from an almost entirely online program from a major US university and that worked quite well for me.

  75. exhausted*

    Just so tired of being a Jew at Christmas. Even otherwise progressive companies suck at this. I don’t know how to start the conversation with anyone here to make it different next year because every approach I can think of results in me sounding like the grinch. And/or me having to take on the planning duties because I think that some people literally don’t get it. I am so tired of walking around all December feeling like I have a little asterisk floating next to me. And I’m not sure whether it’s better when people know I don’t celebrate or don’t know and assume I do.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Sorry. *internet hugs* The floaty asterisks are crappy-feeling. I don’t know either if it’s better to have that asterisk or have everyone assume that you Celebrate The Same Things Just Like Us! Right now I’m battling more the second version.

      Am not Jewish, but also am not Christian. I’m not really out to my suddenly very Christian family yet, and don’t talk about religion at work, and it seems like this year it’s Christian Discussion Central. I’m sure my family’s going to be pissed that we’ll be declining attending any future “Christmas Plays” after making the mistake of trying to make them happy and going to this year’s invitation to Bethlehem Towers.

    3. WineNot*

      I’m Jewish too, but I LOVE Christmas. I am one of 3 Jewish people and everyone knows it, but I love partaking in Christmas conversations. etc. I always deal with people not understanding how I could possibly not celebrate Christmas, but you just gotta let it roll. I did get to have my first ever Christmas tree with my ex last year and kept it up November-March and loved every minute of it. (yes it was a real tree that we picked out of the woods ourselves and was alive that whole time!)

      1. Fikly*

        Please don’t tell people how to feel. People are allowed to feel however they like, and are never under any obligation to attempt to control their feelings. Their thoughts and behaviors, yes, but all feelings are valid.

      2. Tzeitel*

        WineNot, I’m sure you mean well, but your response isn’t terrible helpful- a lot of Jewish people who have complicated feelings about the holiday season are often told to just shut up and enjoy it, which is pretty alienating.

      1. exhausted*

        Good question.

        I think it could be as simple as exchanging Christmas-specific decorations for more winter themed stuff (which we already have some of), renaming the gift exchange so it has nothing to do with Santa or elves or other Christmas-specific things, limiting any singalongs at the holiday party to things that aren’t Christmas specific (there are plenty of choices), and some note from the admin that they are being mindful of keeping the season festive but not tied to religion, and asking the rest of us to try to do the same.

        It’s not one big thing. A thousand small cuts. Got a great secret santa gift, with a “Merry Christmas” card. I feel invisible sometimes, but don’t want to have to make myself Ultra Visible Jewish Person in an attempt to dodge this stuff.

        Or maybe I just need to swallow it all and make do. This isn’t a government job. It’s a privately owned business. So I guess in some sense it’s fine that things are the way they are. Unfortunately, in the part of the country I live in, I will never be able to find work outside of my home where I don’t have to deal with this. I usually spend the month of December trying to roll with it, and then feeling bitter and mentally/emotionally exhausted after I’ve rolled with it.

        1. Snarflepants*

          That sounds really tough! Normally, I would suggest celebrating your holidays and culture at work. (There’s a box of happy pre-Hannukah doughnuts for a Jewish client on my desk at the moment). However, it sounds like you don’t want to be known as *That Jewish Person*. If it comes up next year, maybe you can suggest the general changes to make this season more inclusive.

        2. Admin of Sys*

          Internet {hugs}. Not Jewish, not Christian either, but I grew up in a 50% Jewish neighborhood, so I’m always shocked at how Christmas!! everything is. Even in the state run university, I had to poke folks with sticks to keep the holiday party from being xmas themed. (they had a quiz that included bible quotes, come on folks, think things through).
          I wish I knew something to help? I do my best to bring in jelly donuts over Hanukkah and hamentaschen at Purim but I doubt most of my coworkers realize why.

        3. Deb Morgan*

          I think all of the possible changes you mention are very reasonable! You may not have to bring your Jewishness into it at all. These are things that would keep things celebratory, but also be more inclusive generally. I would wait until the end of this holiday season to be over to bring it up, but definitely say something if it will help your peace of mind. Good luck!

  76. Millennial Lizard Person*

    I successfully networked for somebody! I knew that one of my coworkers has been looking for a job. About 2 months ago, an old friend from college texted me out of the blue trying to poach me. I declined, as I’m happy where I am, but sent him Coworker’s contact information. She signed her offer letter yesterday :’) What a baffling feeling, to have enough connections to network for other people.

  77. qvaken*

    The receptionist who is meant to support me seems to be obsessed with controlling the little areas he can control, and controlling the narrative about fellow employees. He also doesn’t seem to be the best at his job – we discovered mistakes #2 and #3 on the same type of task this week. After mistake # 3 was discovered, he got angry and told a worker to leave him alone because she tried to talk to him about a possible way to resolve the mistake. He has also been extremely rigid with me and has argued with me over simple requests.

    One of my smoothest days at this job happened when he was in another office and I had to rely on his team leader and his team – whom he regularly paints as inflexible, under-trained, and too busy to help us. That day, I found that they were on the ball and very helpful, which was a breath of fresh air after dealing with this receptionist’s rigidity and anger for so long.

    The other day he noticed that I went to his team leader for help with something instead of him. (And I got exactly what I asked for, in a timely manner, with no fuss.) This morning he lectured me about how I must send all requests to him because his team leader is too busy to help me. He’s an idiot, but I was mostly disappointed to notice that one of my teammates seemed to know exactly the incident he was referring to, and she fully supported his version of events, despite her having no reason to know anything about it.

    My teammate is highly competent and mostly professional, but she regularly chooses to be seduced by gossip. It was obvious that he gossiped to her about the non-event and she took his word over mine immediately, without ever taking to me about it. I’d like her to be an ally in the office and she often is, but she has a pattern of aligning herself with gossipy idiots.

    I’m plucking up the courage to talk to her about it sometime, but for now I just feel disappointed.

      1. qvaken*

        I’ve been considering doing that. He’s the only receptionist in our office, so he’d have to be transferred to a different office and a different receptionist transferred to our office. I heard talk that he might get transferred anyway to cover someone’s extended leave – although, I got the feeling he didn’t want to, so he probably pushed back against it. I could tell my manager that I throw my support behind that idea.

        1. valentine*

          Tell your manager this guy creates barriers just ’cause. Why can’t you work with his lead instead?

          I don’t see a need to speak to the female coworker, apart from telling her to mind her own business the next time she weighs in.

  78. It's a fish, Al*

    I recently received the news that I will be working about 2 months of the year in Australia, which is 8 time zones and 20 hours of flying for me. It will likely be a 2 weeks there, 2 weeks home, repeat x4 scenario.

    I work in the travel industry, which you’d think would make us all sympathetic to jet lag, but instead they usually just assume that we’re super human and obviously won’t have issues. I will probably have one day to adjust before starting really intensive, thoughtful, 14 hours per day work.

    I would love any suggestions from frequent travelers about the best ways to set myself up for success with this! Historically I go a bit loopy when I’m extremely sleep deprived, and I really really don’t want that to happen at work.

    1. KeysToTheKingdom*

      Start your body clock before you get there, ideally from when you take off. I recommend the following:

      Set your phone/watch to the time it is in your destination when you take off.

      Then, assess how long the flight is, including what time you’re expected to land.

      As you do this, look at your timings. Let’s say you are landing at 10am local time, and right now it’s 10pm local time. The best thing for you to do is try and sleep, even if you aren’t tired. Or, watch a movie – that will bring you to 12am local time, which means it’s time for sleeping!

      You might get interrupted by service during these times, so try and work around that – if they bring you food at what might be 2am local time, feel free to accept it, but try and sleep afterwards.

      Ideally, you’ll try and sleep during that time. If you can’t, though (as some people can’t sleep on planes or may be uncomfortable), it’s insanely important that you do not sleep until a “normal” bed time in the destination.

      So, if you land at 10am, and you haven’t slept, do NOT fall into the trap of taking a nap. Maybe you can take a small one, but you should strive to keep yourself awake until at least 9/10pm.

    2. Lora*

      -Fly business class when you can. I like JAL’s business class, they actually adjust the lighting to your new time zone, which really helps.
      -Figure out what you need to do to sleep on the plane. Benadryl, whatever. The sooner you can get into sleeping on the new schedule, the better.
      -Get Twilight and f.lux on all screens: computer, phone, tablet, etc. Set them to the local time zone. They filter the blue light that would otherwise signal your brain that it is daytime. Do not watch TV after dark, just use your computer with the f.lux app running if you need entertainment. Similarly, there are now apps for alarms on your phone that mimic the Phillips light alarm to wake you up with colored light in the morning.
      -Some sort of white noise when you go to bed so hotel noises don’t wake you up. There are apps, “music” you can download, etc.

      Good luck!

  79. YourPrioritiesConfuseMe*

    The majority of our department are introverted data people who sit in windowless offices working on our computers 90% of the time. New grandboss’s first proclamation nailed to the wall is that everyone in the department, all the way down to the front desk admin, will be required to give a book report during our quarterly departmental meetings.

      1. YourPrioritiesConfuseMe*

        It occurred to me, but I’m not sure I could resist passive aggressive pointed examples from the book!

    2. Rebecca*

      Why? A book report? This isn’t grade school English class! And how many are in this department? So you all have to stand up and give a book report? Quarterly? How long will this take? This can’t be serious.

      1. YourPrioritiesConfuseMe*

        There was a sign up sheet posted. We were required to sign up for one of the meetings. There are 3-4 reports per meeting.

    3. irene adler*

      Are folks allowed to read and prepare this report entirely on company time?
      Thought not.
      Don’t like it when bosses want to tell me what to do with my personal time. They are not entitled to that.

      Is something lacking with the “data people” that they need to brush up on their reading and report-making skills?

      Sounds like grandboss has visions of being a high school English teacher. Is she gonna grade these reports as well?

      1. YourPrioritiesConfuseMe*

        No.
        As far as I know, no one has complained about our reading or report-makinig skills. Grandboss apparently thinks public speaking is a vitally important skill that everyone needs to develop.
        Grandboss critique is a given. We are also required to request feedback from a minimum number of people in the department.

      2. Gumby*

        In an ideal world you would have old book reports from when you were actually in school. Or borrow one from a child. The assignment was to “give” a book report and that sounds like “present” one which does not necessarily include “prepare / write / produce” one. To my mind. :)

    5. Cog in the Machine*

      Does it have to be a specific type of book? Otherwise, I see a lot of children’s books that are more pictures than words.
      The whole idea is somewhat mind blowing.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      My goodness I’d be tempted to have the team all pick out romance novels and then give a VERY DETAILED report when it was their turn.

      “I liked their creative use of euphemisms for the male genitalia, but unfortunately the author overused “heaving bosom” and it distracted from the already thin plot….”

    7. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I see so many ways to twist this to my personal amusement, assuming you get to pick the books and aren’t worried about your reputation taking a hit. Some suggestions:

      – A phone book. “I found this book repetitive, confusing, highly commercialized, and outdated. I do not recommend that others read this book.”

      – A technical manual for something unrelated to work, such as a Haynes Repair Manual for a car. “I found the description of possible problems with the transmission useful, but I felt that the wiring diagrams for the dashboard were not detailed enough.”

      – A graphic novel in a language that you do not know how to read. “While I am not clear about the nature of the disagreement on page 20, I found the fight scene panels to be well-composed and show a clear progression of time and events. I wish I knew what was up with that one dude in the weird outfit, though.”

      – Rise Up Singing. “I particularly liked the section on rounds, so I’m going to divide us into three groups so we can all participate in singing this next selection so as to better appreciate the book…”

      I can’t see any reason why this actually makes sense at work, though. We’ll read work-related books and discuss them for professional development reasons, but that’s a matter of the team selecting a new book we find relevant each year or two and then using work time to read and discuss it in small chunks as a group. (Work pays for the books and we’re expected to use work time to read and discuss them.) As an introvert, I much prefer this to being stuck in a conference room with an outside trainer for extended periods as a form of PD.

  80. Ocean*

    A year ago I had an issue with a junior employee. I brought it to the attention of my manager (who is new to management) and she said she would address it. Part of my role is to provide feedback to junior employees, so I included the issue in my appraisal for this employee. In the follow-up discussion it was really clear my manager hadn’t told him about it or if she did didn’t get across how serious it was. My manager has apologized. My real issue is that now I’m paranoid that people aren’t giving me feedback because it’s too difficult to do so. I get a lot of “you’re great, no issues.” I work with a lot of different staff and my manager isn’t involved closely with most of my projects. How do I get more direct feedback? What should I look for to identify unspoken concerns? Can I just accept the “you’re great” and stop worrying?

    1. sigh*

      To me it sounds like an honest mistake and your boss did truly forget to give your junior coworker the feedback. I woul think if you were doing something wrong and being in a more senior position, you would have heard if there were any suggestions from higher ups. So to answer your question, yes I’d say accept Your Great. In addition maybe schedule some time wiht your boss to ask for feedback.

    2. Legally a Vacuum*

      I try to give openings for feedback that don’t force the other person to feel as though they’re criticizing me. “I prioritized XYZ on this project- do you think I should stay with that, or is there a different area you’d like me to focus on?”

  81. Swarley*

    Hopefully it is still early enough for this to be answered. I am trying to transition from teaching English to becoming a mortgage loan processor. There are many skills that transfer (plus I have been in the administrative assistant roles off and on for a few years). However, I am having difficulty trying to get into the career as most of the jobs in my area (Indiana) are asking for at least three years of experience. Does anyone have any recommendations or ideas on how to make this transition? I found the National Association of Mortgage Processors’ Processor Bootcamp and was wondering if it was worth doing to help me get a job. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      IS there a local chapter of a professional organization pertaining to mortgage industry? Or banking? They would be able to provide relevant advice for the local job market- including whether the boot camp is worth the expense/time to complete. They may suggest other avenues to obtain the necessary skills.

      And, they may have suggestions on getting around the 3 year’s experience requirement. It may be that they want candidates to possess certain specific skills. The three years is just a guess on their part as to whether you have acquired these skills.

    2. Box of Kittens*

      Most financial institutions, even if they are small, have decent advancement opportunities. If you have issues finding a job as a mortgage processor, you could apply for lower-level lending positions, customer service positions, or even teller jobs. I realize that’s starting farther from where you want to be, but as far as I understand that’s a hazard of industry-switching. A lot of financial institutions like for their lenders to work their way up anyway, especially for mortgage lending, and speaking from experience it really adds a lot of needed context to have started from a teller line or other objectively lower-level job. Good luck!

  82. CBH*

    Silliest question to ever be asked on an open thread. I love baking as a hobby, when I have time, when I have the ingredients etc. I have a friend who is one step below being a professional baker and is very passionate about her hobby. I have a lot holiday gifts some professional and the rest personal. I hire and pay my friend every year to do my holiday baking – cookies, cakes, brownies muffins, etc. I help her out the last hour or so of baking so I can do the Christmas Spirit of things with baking. After which we feast on hot cocoa, wine, cookie dough, junk food and watch cheesy Christmas movies. It works for us and had become a bit of a holiday tradition.

    What do I do when professional acquaintances and coworkers ask “did you make this”? Seriously they are getting a dozen cookies and a heartfelt card from me nothing extrenuous. I try to joke oh I had a friend help (I do recommend her business), an elf helped, my child wanted to do baking. But I hate to admit it but I technically hired someone to bake my Christmas gifts. My personal friends know my baking theories and love my baking friend’s cookies. I do bake for friends during the year, I just get stressed doing it around the holidays… its a weird quirk of mine. My coworkers are aware I like to cook and bring in treats often. I feel like I;m saying your not good enough for me to spend time on this season to make you cookies… when in actuality my friend loves to bake, dreams of opening a bakery and her clean up is our own little celebration. How would you respond?

    See silliest question ever asked.

    1. Delta Delta*

      How about, “sort of! My friend and I do it together every year. It’s become a Christmas tradition she and I cherish.” It’s a true way to frame it and it leaves out the business aspect, which feels icky for you.

      1. valentine*

        “I hire my baker friend every year. Here’s her card.”

        I would give her the entire credit and, on the other end, know you really cared if you bought me guaranteed delicious stuff. If you had a personal chef, wouldn’t you credit them?

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      A friend and I do holiday baking together every year; she is on her way to becoming a professional so i hope you got one of hers!

    3. Turtlewings*

      “Did you make this?” “Partly! A friend and I got together and baked.” You can add “I mostly did the finishing touches” if you like, since you said you mostly come in for the last hour of the process.

      You’re overthinking it. :) Other people aren’t having nearly as many feelings about it as you are, they’re just making conversation.

    4. Alianora*

      I like Delta Delta’s response. Personally, I would say, “My friend X made them! Here’s her business information.” You could even put her business card in with the card. There’s actually nothing wrong with buying gifts for people instead of making them yourself. Especially if you have a friend who has a business specializing in those gifts.

      I think framing it as “hiring someone to bake for me” is maybe complicating it in your head. But if someone was giving like a gift basket of handmade soaps and lotions they got from their friend’s Etsy store, you wouldn’t feel like they were saying, “You are not good enough for me to make this myself,” would you? I would think that they’re nice enough to give me a gift, and they also want to help a friend out by promoting their business.

    6. Jaded Millenial*

      Please don’t minimize your friend’s business. You are supporting a great local business for your gifts; they just happen to be your friend. This time of year is busy, and most people buy gifts instead of making them, so I feel you’re overthinking a bit.

    7. CBH*

      Hey everyone op here. Yes I am overthinking things. My coworkers know I enjoy baking but my talents will never be on par with my baking friend. I always mention my friends company. I just felt like it made me seem impersonal not doing things myself. The person who gave the Etsy sample was right on track. Today, when I handed out a bulk of my professional gifts, I used the reasoning when asked – I helped with the finishing touches but my friend has an amazing bakery business. SHe makes delicious cookies doesn’t she? I have her info if you’d like it. So what is everyone’s holiday plans.

      This seems to be working in my office setting. We’re all having a holiday feast of treats and goodies today. Many are having the cookies for breakfast.

  83. KeysToTheKingdom*

    Got a really generous offer from an employer after meeting them last week. The package is good – 10% more than I was on previously, good vacation, annual bonus, relocation since it’s in a different country, and there’s a 5 probationary period which means it’s an open field in terms of settling in.

    But I just…don’t want it. Am I crazy? I’m young – late 20s – and feel like if I turn it down, people are going to think I’m nuts. I lived in the country they’re based in for two years and whilst I didn’t hate it, I also didn’t love it. I’ve also had some underlying health concerns that I’ve finally been able to tackle after leaving that country, some of which require ongoing analysis.

    Part of me knows that rejecting the offer would be madness. But the other part of me doesn’t feel like I’d fit in at the company, and that there would be very little to no growth. The role is something I’ve done before, so whilst I’m qualified, I’m not entirely sure if the company culture is right for me. There were some things said during the interviews that made me uneasy, from people talking about how higher ups aren’t receptive to new ideas, to one person even saying the CEO was “a bit autistic and you need to speak to him like he doesn’t understand anything”. Red flag much?

    I thought about making a decision after the 5 month probation, since I could terminate it on my own terms at any time, but then I have a short time period on my resume that looks gross. And I don’t envision myself at the company longer than that minimum amount of time.

    Am I really crazy for wanting to reject this offer? It’s not like I’ll be without work – I’m doing some freelance work and looking into taking a course so I can teach English in Asia, so I’ll be kept busy and have some money coming in – but part of me feels like I might be shooting myself in the foot.

    So am I? Crazy, that is. Family and friends have conflicting approaches and it’s starting to stress me out – especially since I only have until Monday to decide!!!

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      Listen to your gut. If necessary, focus on the importance of continuity of care for your health issues. If you don’t think you’ll stay longer than 5 months, then I don’t see a lot of value added.

    2. nep*

      When something’s right, it’s right, and you’ll know it. When it’s not, it’s not, whatever all the external circumstances or projections that make it seem like the way to go. Agree with Legally a Vacuum–heed your gut.
      All the best.

    3. londonedit*

      Rejecting the offer isn’t madness if you don’t want the job – it’s only an ‘amazing opportunity’ if it’s something that you actually want to do! The job might sound good on paper but if you’re not 100% sold on the country you’d have to relocate to (which is a big step in itself), you’ve got health concerns, and you’re not even 100% sold on the job itself either, I’d say those are pretty good indications that it’s not for you, however wonderful it might all sound in theory.

    4. Senor Montoya*

      Write it all out, pro and con. And then assign weights to each pro/con. You might have a long list of pro and a short list of con, but if each con is very important and most of the pro are less important to you, that short con list can outweigh the long pro list.

      How you *feel* about it is also a pro/con that you should give serious weight. I’m a very hard-headed objective person, and I take my feelings into account (I do examine them to make sure my feelings aren’t superficial or being influenced by someone else).

      My experience:
      After grad school I turned down a *tenure track* position in my field — a good job, lovely colleagues, good students, and tenure track jobs in my field were exceptionally hard to come by even then — because I could not see myself living in that place (rural, far from almost everything — I’m an urban girl) and because the school was fairly small and there was very little chance of my spouse (also an academic) could find a tenure track job within a five hour drive. My dissertation director was horrified. As were many of the professors in my program as well as many fellow students. And it did affect my career path — I am not a professor. That was really really hard, I grieved a long long time about it, but I know it was the right decision because I would have been so unhappy, it might have broken my marriage, and if it did not, it would have made it harder to have children (very important to me).

      1. KeysToTheKingdom*

        I’ve had pro/con suggested to me before, but the context here and the important of the pro/con individually really feels like a good plan. Thank you! I’ll put it to use this weekend.

        And thank you for sharing your experience – it feels very good to know I’m not crazy for thinking about rejecting it!

    5. halfwolf*

      i was in a similar situation to you recently: had an interview process that was going well, would be an industry change and more possibility of growth, more interesting projects, etc., yet after 3 interviews i was super stressed because … i just didn’t want it, and that didn’t seem like a good enough reason to pull myself out of the process. i felt like i needed a “better” reason to turn it down, and i didn’t have one. i had a lot of conversations with my partner, friends, and therapist, and eventually decided that “just not wanting it” WAS a good enough reason to not continue (because it is!). the question i asked myself was: “three years from now, do i want to be in the same job-searching position i’m in now, stuck in a job that i only kind of like in an industry that doesn’t interest me that much?” and the answer was no. i told the recruiter i was pulling out (after an entire weekend of stressing about it) and all i felt after that conversation was relief. it may be a good job in general, or a good job for someone, but you’re not crazy if you decide it’s not a good job for you.

      1. KeysToTheKingdom*

        I wish Alison had a “like” button like social media platforms do because this is some seriously great insight! Thank you so much!!

    6. LilySparrow*

      You sound like you’re trying to talk yourself into dating someone you don’t really like, just because they’re theoretically a “good catch”.

      It’s not crazy to pass on a job you don’t want, in a country you don’t want to live in. Especially for a 10 percent bump. That’s actually pretty measly for an international relocation.

      I think you are putting pressure on yourself for no reason. It’s not a great situation, and not a great offer. If you loved the job, company, and/or location, it would be worth it.

      But it’s 0/3. Pass.

  84. thestik*

    Has anyone ever found a potential counselor through EAP? I’ve been working with the new EAP counselor on setting better boundaries with my TMI-inclined team and have found his suggestions easy to implement. He also has experience with people on the autistic spectrum like myself. The thing I’m wondering is would it pose an ethical quandary for either the counselor or myself if I worked with him in his independent practice. Should I try scheduling an appointment with the practice or keep looking for a counselor who has similar attributes?

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      You should ask him- he’ll know the professional ethics rules that govern his patient lists better than you do. If he can’t, he may be able to provide a referral to another counselor with similar skill-sets.

    2. Extra anonymous today.*

      I found my current counselor through the EAP. In fact I specifically asked the EAP to hook me up with someone who’s in my insurance network in case so I could continue beyond the piddly 5-10 sessions they pay for. I would be surprised if it turned out to be a problem.

  85. Scared Stiff*

    Should I tell my boss that my coworker (Jane) has been purposely undermine and sabotage another coworker (Daria) work? Jane started at the beginning of the year and has never liked Daria. She bad mouths her behind her back, complains to our manager, and other managers that Daria never does her work, and regularly checks Daria’s public social media accounts for “proof” that she is incompetent. She screenshots and forwards the “proof” hoping it will get Daria reprimanded or fired.
    Daria is one of the hardest working people at my job, and unfortunately will be quitting (due to other non Jane related stress). I’ve flip-flopped with telling my boss about Jane’s behavior but, I have no evidence. Everything I know Jane has proudly, told me herself that she does this, and I’m worried it will come off as tattling.

    1. irene adler*

      What would be the point?
      Given you have no evidence of Jane’s doings and Daria is leaving soon, you might well come off as simply trying to trash Jane for some misguided reason.

      1. Scared Stiff*

        I was hoping it would create a paper trail because our team communicates a lot through e-mail, even though we are all within walking distance of each other. But I am worried it would become a paper trail against me more than documentation of Jane’s behavior.

    2. Alianora*

      How’s your boss? Is there a reason you didn’t bring it up when Jane has bragged about sabotaging her before?

      1. Scared Stiff*

        My boss loves and is also intimated by Jane. I’ve never brought it up because I only have word of mouth evidence from Jane and its possible she could refute it, or say it was a joke. My boss she doesn’t like confrontation and when she does reprimand people it’s normally a very soft slap on the wrist.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Doesn’t sound like there is any point in saying anything. Don’t bother.
          I am sad this “Jane” and “Daria” are on the outs though! (Har.)

    3. fposte*

      If she’s complaining to your manager, it sounds like your manager already knows about Jane’s issue. (Is she forwarding this “proof” to you, btw? Sounds like evidence to me.)

      If Daria is leaving, Jane will probably find another fixation. If that starts to happen, I would consider talking to the manager speedily by saying “Jane’s obsession with Daria hurt morale around here, but with Daria leaving I let it go; now it looks like Jane is semi-stalking Newbie, and I’m concerned.”

      1. Scared Stiff*

        She’s forwarding the “proof” to our boss. Our boss softly explains why the “proof” is nothing of concern. Which infuriates and motivates Jane to look for better “proof”.

        Thank you for your sound advice. I will be on the look out if Daria’s replacement receives the same treatment from Jane.

      1. Scared Stiff*

        Surprisingly if she’s not detailing her latest stalking and sabotaging she only talks to me about work.

        Jane unfortunately has multiple people she doesn’t like in our office but they’re not direct coworkers, and that makes it hard for her to complain about them like she has about Daria.

        1. valentine*

          Tell Jane you don’t want to hear it. Stop being her audience. Can you yawn as soon as she starts in and turn back to work each time?

    5. montescristo1985*

      I would tend to say yes, tell the boss. Daria may be leaving, but Jane isn’t. What she will do to one person, she will do to another. I would have said something at the time, personally, because sabotage is a thing with which I will not tolerate, but you can still do it now. Something like “Jane bragged to me about sabotaging Daria. (if you have examples or quotes, use them here) Daria moved on, so I decided not to speak up at that time, but now I’m concerned that Jane may move on to other targets. I just think this is something you should be aware of.”

  86. WannaBeTA*

    I normally post under a different name, but I’m going incognito for this one. I have a phone interview this morning for a job in a completely different career field this morning. I got my qualifications, and now I’m looking to get into my semi-retirement field. Does anyone have any pointers for interviewing as a beginner travel agent?

  87. new kid*

    Just want to put some gratitude out for my latest gig – I’ve been here about seven months now and it’s working out so well. Today is our last day of the year before we all get the next 8 work days off (paid!) on top of our already generous PTO. The job hunt for most of 2018+first few months of 2019 was so demoralizing and exhausting and I’m just so grateful to be heading into 2020 on the other side.

    Sending all the best possible vibes to those of you still in the hunt!!!

    1. nep*

      This is great. Thanks for this. Glad it’s been going so well. Thanks for the good vibes and all the best to you.

  88. Anonymous for this, colleagues read here*

    Not a question, just a vent…or, what NOT to do if you want a job.

    I’m chairing a search for a mid-level position at a large public university, department is academic-adjacent. The search committee has been reading many many applications — if an applicant meets the minimum requirement, we have to justify both “no” and “yes”. (I pre-screen for minimums so that my committee has fewer to review.) Salary is middling, and it’s a desirable job in a desirable location. We have a reputation for being an excellent shop, too. So, plenty of applications. We’re not worried about getting a good choice.

    Want to work for us? Don’t do this:

    1. Lie about meeting our preference for X years of experience post-masters degree. If you earned your degree in 2017, and it’s now 2019, that’s 2 years (X = several more than two). First of all, we can do basic math — we can *tell* right away that you are lying. We’re annoyed at you for thinking we’re that stupid. Second, and more importantly, you lied on your application — we’re not impressed with your lack of integrity. It’s really unfortunate because we may be able to hire for a lower level position, but now you’re not in the running for it, because….lying.

    2. Gigantic resume. If you’ve been working post-bachelors for five years, you do not need a four page resume. Two pages. Max. (Everyone on this committee has a decade or more of work experience. Our resumes are two pages long.)

    3. Resume in which you list every. single. task. for. every. single. job. Hit the main points and, you know, the things that are pertinent to the job you’re applying to. We’re going to miss your key skills and experience because they are lost in a sea of trivial tasks.

    4. Resume “highlights” sections: These should not be longer than the description of the job being “highlighted”.

    5. Dense paragraphs of text in resumes: bullet points, I beg you. We are not going to read your paragraphs. We’re going to read the first line and scan the rest. Similarly, skinny skinny margins and lack of white space between main items so that you can cram in more info. (Not only is this hard to read, but it speaks to your lack of skill with written communication.)

    6. Excessively large objective statement on resume. Everyone on our committee thinks objective statements are bogus, but we’ll read them if they’re short and pertinent to the position and specific. A quarter of your first page? Nope. We’re not even reading them. You’ve just wasted space that could be used for actual information about your experience.

    7. List of skills on your resume. Unless you have something truly unique or impressive, this belongs in your cover letter. And it better be short. Long list = wasted space, lack of skill with written communication. (That’s one of the qualifications for the job: excellent written and oral communication skills.)

    8. Resume templates that have boxes and three columns and different fonts etc etc. OMG. This is not an industry where designer-y resumes are a thing. Plain and straight, make it easy for us to find everything.

    9. Resumes with your photo. Don’t. The committee members work hard to recognize and combat any implicit biases they have; if your picture is in the resume, now we know you’re a late-20s/early 30s attractive white woman. Plus, you have used up space that you could have used to give info about your experience. Plus, this is expressly NOT a thing for this field.

    10. Resumes without any dates. None. Not just dates for education (we can look that up, anyway, it’s a required section of the online application, but btw, it’s annoying to have to do that extra step, do you really want to annoy us?), but for anything. No dates = we can’t assess how much experience you actually have, we can’t tell if you’re a job-hopper, we can’t tell if you got promoted fast with those three positions at one employer. That’s an automatic trip to the “no” list: if we can’t assess your experience, we cannot move your application forward.

    11. Resumes that do not match cover letters. If you say in your letter that you have many years of experience llama grooming, but your resume only shows experience with peacock wrangling with one bullet point for “volunteered to assist at llama grooming conference”, you have…lied. Off to the “no” list!

    12. Cover letters in which you state that you have a unique combination of skills and experience that make you perfect for our job. No, no you don’t. We’ve got a big pile of applications with exactly that same combination of skills and experience.

    13. Cover letters that tell us way too much about why you are currently unemployed or in a position that looks like a demotion — A sentence or two that explains in an objective, professional tone, that’s all that’s needed. Three paragraphs in which we can see you struggling to hit that tone but instead letting all the feels come through — we feel bad for you. But you’ve gone way down the list because we doubt your ability to communicate professionally.

    14. Cover letters that just summarize the info on your resume. We have your resume …

    15. Cover letters that make it clear that you haven’t done the basic homework of looking at our very easy to find and very easy to navigate website, because you get basic facts about our program wrong.

    16. Cover letters that make it clear that you are not actually interested in *our* position. Please, address the experience and skills in the position, discuss the issues that are central to our program (which you would know if you completely read the position description, checked our website, and had some experience in this area of work).

    Ahhhhhh. Good to get that all out!

    1. TiredOfTreatment*

      Most of these are great, but if you’re rejecting a resume with a picture of a white woman, I would hope you do a gut check and make sure you aren’t being biased. More career centers misguide others by saying add a picture.

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Yeah, I don’t hold pictures against anyone (though of course I always advise ppl NOT to use pictures on their resumes). There are lots of cultures around the world that have a really strong expectation/norm around using pictures on resumes. People should not use pictures on their resumes, but I never hold it against the candidate if they do.

      2. Senor Montoya*

        No, we’re not rejecting it outright, I’m just saying, you’re out of step with the norms of this industry and you’ve put us in a potentially difficult situation. We’re not rejecting anyone based on race, gender, age, etc. — in fact, we’re working really hard to be self-aware. Obviously there are other clues in application materials, but again, we try not to make assumptions (white people do get degrees from HBCUs, for example). HR collects anonymized demographic data on applicants but they do not share it with the search committee or hiring officer.

        Also, I used the example of a white woman, but that’s just because I wanted only one example, not a list of every person who’s done this.

        1. Senor Montoya*

          In fact, we’re explicitly directed not to look at social media or go googling around because that can give us info about age, sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, religion, etc etc.

          I’ve kicked people off my search committee in the past because they didn’t comply with that rule. I run a tight committee, follow the rules, acknowledge your biases and consciously take action to rectify them and keep them out of decisions, no leaks/strict confidentiality, route all inquiries to the me (the chair), etc.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with you on a lot of that, but I’d be inclined to cut them slack on #2–around my university everybody operates on a CV model and would automatically default to that.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        #2 doesn’t send you automatically to the “no” list, but it’s a piece of information. If you’re not a faculty member we don’t need a cv from you. I’m also more tolerant of that if it’s an entry-level position. At this level you should be more aware of the norms.

        We have folks on the “yes” list who submitted gigantic resumes; we’ll be probing during the interview as to their awareness of professional norms.

        1. fposte*

          What I’m saying is that our university’s norm is for a CV, even for non-faculty members. So I don’t know that they’re demonstrating ignorance of a norm by using a CV, unless the posting explicitly states the length of the resume.

          1. Senor Montoya*

            Sure, when we interview them we’ll find out if it’s just that one thing.

            Also, it’s more understandable when it’s an actual cv, as opposed to an extremely long resume. I myself have a cv (it’s long), a master resume I use to make tailored resumes (it’s long), and a resume that works for most purposes (two pages). My cv does not have the kind of info about my work experience that my resume does, for instance; my resume has a very brief summary of the topical areas of my publications while the cv has a complete list of publications.

    4. CR*

      I’m dealing with hiring right now for the first time in my career. I am consistently amazed by the terrible resumes and cover letters we have been receiving. Just awful, and like they didn’t even read the job description. Or cover letters where I can tell it’s just a standard cover letter they send to every organization with zero customization. Or a cover letter addressed to “Dear Sirs” when not a single man works here and the job ad clearly states to send applications to me, a woman with an obvious female name. We even got an application IN THE MAIL! The mail!

    5. MoopySwarpet*

      #16, though . . . we had someone apply for a llama grooming position once and the objective statement said “I want to work with a company where I can be the best teapot designer I can be.”

      I’d like to add that:

      My name is Jennifer Lopez.
      555-555-5555

      in landscape as big as will fit is NOT a cover letter even if you save the file with the name “cover letter”.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        insert crying-laughing emoji

        TBH, applicants sometimes upload a cover letter for a different position in a different department at this university — I reach out to see if they are in fact interested in our opening. If they are, I give them info on getting it corrected; the committee just gets a note from me that the candidate has a technical problem with the application and they should not read it til it’s resolved. People apply for more than one job, so I won’t hold that against a candidate — only to the extent of keeping an eye out for other evidence of disorganization or lack of attention to detail.

  89. rageismycaffeine*

    Some weeks ago I mentioned in one of these open threads my employee, Sansa who referred to my (male) boss’s team of entirely female employees as his “harem,” and how I pulled her aside to request that she not do so anymore. Now I’m going to have to call her on another not-great comment… I have mentioned at work, and will fully own, that I have “resting bitchface.” In a conversation between Sansa, my boss, and me, I mentioned that some ongoing noise in the office is why I’ve had my door closed all week. Sansa said, in all seriousness, “Oh, so that’s why you had that bitchface when I came in to say goodbye the other day!”

    Nope. Nope nope, nope. Not to my face, and especially not in front of my boss. I don’t care if I’ve used the word to describe myself. I’m allowed to.

    So that’s going to be another fun conversation about her weirdly poor judgment. Whee!

    1. MsM*

      “I don’t care if I’ve used the word to describe myself.”

      Um…that sounds like at least a slightly less clear-cut case of “where would you get the idea it was appropriate to say that?” I’m not saying don’t talk to her about it, but if you’re not comfortable with other people in the office picking up that language, probably best to avoid it altogether.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’d agree. That doesn’t have to mean you don’t have the conversation with her, but it’s a different conversation–“You’ve made me realize it was inappropriate for either of us to use the term in the workplace. So please don’t do it again, and I won’t either.”

          1. valentine*

            “You’ve made me realize it was inappropriate for either of us to use the term in the workplace. So please don’t do it again, and I won’t either.”
            This is great.

  90. janessia*

    I’m starting a full-stack web development boot camp soon (I vetted several because I know some have quite poor reputations, but I’m happy with my program of choice). I have a master’s degree in an unrelated creative field which, while I loved my program immensely, has not opened many doors career-wise. I’m really excited about the possibilities of transitioning into web and software development.

    Does anyone have experience with boot camp-like coding programs? I’d love to hear what your experience was like.

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      Someone wrote about their experience in last week’s open thread- just in case you don’t get a lot of responses here. It’s like the 3rd comment down.

      1. janessia*

        Ah, thank you! For some reason I missed last week’s thread. Found the post you pointed out and it was really insightful!

  91. TiredOfTreatment*

    My boss put a note to my file for something I wasn’t in charge of or didn’t do. My coworker also didn’t do it a few months earlier but didn’t get written up for it. How can I approach this?

    1. fposte*

      If you’re in a union environment, check with your union rep. I don’t know what discussion happened around the time the note went in–does your boss know that you didn’t do it? Can you ask to note your version alongside? (I’d let the co-worker thing go completely.)

      1. TiredOfTreatment*

        I’m salary and therefore don’t get Union representation. She is harder on me than my other coworkers. So I thought knowing my coworker wasn’t written up is important.

        1. fposte*

          The problem is that it’s not likely to be actionable–she’s not required to treat you equally. If you’ve pointed out that the note isn’t inaccurate and she doesn’t care, it’s not likely you can change her.

          Will you still be exempt come the new year and the new threshold?

          1. TiredOfTreatment*

            I’m not understanding your question. Salary does not join the Union here. Even if I could, I wouldn’t. That’s a whole other issue and wouldn’t even resolve anything.

            I thought it was considered some kind of harassment if she treats certain employees worse than others.

          2. TiredOfTreatment*

            Are you from USA? Salary doesn’t typically join unions. It’s dependant on certain business. That doesn’t really resolve my bosss treating in unequal ways anyways.

            1. fposte*

              As Fikly says, that’s not illegal, and it’s not legally considered harassment. Yes, I’m from the U.S. (and at my workplace some exempt workers, which you’re calling salaried, are unionized). I’m referring to the fact that as of January 1, most workers will have to make at least $35,568 per year to be exempt, so quite a few people who are exempt now will become non-exempt in the new year. If you’re one of them, that may mean you’re eligible to join the union.

    2. Marthooh*

      “Hey, boss, I’m not actually in charge Llama Hoof Conditioning. Was this note meant for me?” Don’t mention the thing about your coworker — it’s not your business and it’s likely to come off as weird work-sibling rivalry.

  92. Roja*

    I’ve shared bits and pieces of my toxic job story over the last few weeks, and this week I’m happy to report I got fired. It’s SUCH a relief. It’s kind of a saga how it all went down (lies, so. many. lies. from my old boss) but now it’s down and I’m just so happy. It’s like a giant weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

    I was still feeling sad about it (no matter how toxic you know it is, there’s still that “what if it’s all my fault and I’m awful”) until I told my two other local connections who had been fired. They told me how things had gone down for them and oh my gosh, I really got off lucky.

    Oh well, joke’s on old job. I’m starting a new gig next month that pays more, is better hours, AND an easier commute!

    1. Roja*

      *connections who had been fired from this same job, I mean. Let’s just say this workplace has a history…

    2. new kid*

      Congrats on the new gig and on escaping such a toxic environment! That feeling of relief is such a powerful thing.

  93. HolidayAnon'19*

    So, I just quit a miserable part-time job where my paycheck was late 24% of the time. The owner of the company and I had a disagreement Monday that ended with her raising her voice and telling me I couldn’t use the nearest bathroom because it contained toxins and that I would have to deal with being cold because she couldn’t afford to heat the office.

    This weird conversation, along with her failure to pay me on time, caused me to submit my resignation Monday evening. I offered to return to the office and to finish projects and clean up my desk and computer. She declined my offer but still hasn’t paid me (check due Monday before I left) or returned the library audiobook I accidentally left on my desk.

    I have spoken with the local police about steps to have my property returned. They have advised that I contact them to go to the location, park around the corner myself, and they would retrieve and return the item to me. Given that the office is closed until Monday, and I am traveling for the holiday starting Sunday, I don’t know that this is immediately feasible.

    For the late pay issue, I have reached out the state Department of Commerce and have been sent a complaint form that must be completed and notarized before being returned. I am reluctant to go this route because it could damage the company long-term, but I want to be paid what I am owed in a timely manner.

    AAM , any suggestions? Should I just wait and see how my ex-boss handles it, or should I file the complaint?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      They’re already consistently late. Would you expect them to handle this last check better than what they’ve done before?

      Personally, I’d file the complaint. They have a history of this behavior, which probably isn’t going to change until someone forces them to.

      1. HolidayAnon'19*

        That’s part of my thinking. I just want to get my money (late paycheck and final paycheck) without my fuss.

        This job has already consumed too much of my time, energy and head space. I just want to be done with it entirely.

        Still, I have the paperwork and it’s easy enough to complete and notarized. Maybe I should sent it to just to cover myself.

        Thanks for writing!

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Send it, wash your hands of it, and mentally move on and do a happy dance when you get that final check. :)

    2. CR*

      You shouldn’t worry about damaging the company long-term. You owe them no loyalty and they’re probably already doing a good job of damaging themselves.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Why couldn’t you go get your audiobook? Were you banned from the building, or something?

      Calling the cops seems like overkill unless there is a lot more to the story. People quit part-time jobs all the time, and they don’t need to call the police to retrieve a library item.

      Maybe you could ask a coworker to drop it in a return box for you while you’re on your trip. You don’t actually need it back, as long as it gets to the library, right?

      1. valentine*

        Why couldn’t you go get your audiobook?
        The boss is so weird, I’d rather be accused of overkill than trespassing/stalking/violence.

        Best-case scenario it’s totally boring, but this person may show the cops why you left and it’s great that they want to help you avoid an incident.

  94. Shiny*

    I just started an exciting new job at an exciting org after being laid off due to an org shutting down slowly and out of work for 3 months. I was hired under one of their program units, but there was a re-org between my interviews and when I started. The specific type of very technical services I provide to programs is being consolidated into a new unit–that new person was just hired and starts in January.

    But I’m still in the original unit for the next 3-6 months. My boss will be changing, my title and job description may be changing. But I still want to get off on the right foot and do really good work regardless of the reorg. Any advice for navigating some pretty choppy waters and having a stellar six months while knowing there’s a ton of upheaval coming?

    1. Lana Kane*

      I’ve been through some reorgs, and my best advice is to remember that any reorg will have upheavals and hiccups. Things may change more than once, and if communication isn’t good in the org you may find that different people will give different answers to the same question. My best advice is to stay positive and flexible. If you’re the person who doesn’t appear flustered and seems to understand that this kind of thing is bumpy, you’ll come out looking solid. Also, since things can change often, I’d document the answers you get to questions in case someone disagrees with how you’re doing things.

      1. Shiny*

        Thanks for the good, practical advice. I probably wouldn’t have thought of documenting answers on my own (aside from whatever I’m doing to make sure I remember them in the first place).

  95. Party in shifts*

    We had the holiday party yesterday! It was a ton of fun and I even won a door prize (An at-home spa kit with a nice fluffy robe and a giant painting). The door prizes were hilarious because it is a male-dominated company so there were a ton of hunting knives and fishing knives and jumper cables. No one had to leave halfway through and no clients got fussy because they got an oom. It was great!

    2. new kid*

      We had our work party yesterday too and it was great! We had a white elephant that I was nervous about since it was my first time with this org but it was actually really fun and everyone seemed to take it in the same spirit. It’s always funny to hear the horror stories, but it’s nice to hear other people had some fun parties as well.

      1. Party in shifts*

        I am the new kid too (We are merging) and I was super nervous. I think sometimes people get too wrapped up and forget you can have fun.

  96. RAM*

    Been hearing rumors of mass layoffs coming in the “next few months” (30-60% of people at my position). I have a contact in a different company who said they’re hiring now – but they need to fill the spot before I’d get the official news of whether or not I’m part of the layoffs. Do I take that job? Wait around? I’ve never been a part of layoffs – I’m a high performer and been promoted very quickly in the past, but I’m not sure how much that matters.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      Take the job. I don’t see any advantage in waiting to see if you get laid off. If there’s rumors, there’s usually fire when it comes to layoffs. Also, if you leave, maybe someone else might not get laid off?

    2. Buttons*

      Rumors are sometimes just rumors. If you have someone in a leadership role who you trust, you might ask about the rumors and the likelihood of you being part of the layoffs. But if you think this is a possibility, then I would take the job. Even if there are often job postings for your field, you would potentially be competing with a lot of other people.
      The only reason I would suggest not jumping ship is if you have been there a long time and going to get a big life-changing kind of severance package. But even then, you have to weigh the long term.

    3. CR*

      Is the new job something you’re excited about? Because you might get a nice severance package that would allow you time to search for a job that’s a good fit.

  97. Not This Elf*

    I have to talk with my direct report about her behavior. Lately she’s been short with people, sulking over minor interactions. At the holiday party, she rudely told a freelancer that she shouldn’t be attending because she’s not a real employee. The employee was dawdling in line for … let’s say facepainting. (Apparently, they have a history). All of these interactions have been personal interactions, which makes it difficult. Further complicated by the fact that my employee is very sensitive to criticism. I should have spoken to her about this last week, but honestly, I didn’t have the emotional energy to handle it. I guess, I’m hoping you all might be able to give me some pointers, pep talks, or encouragement.

    1. Buttons*

      Oh goodness, that is a fun conversation!
      My tips are to go in asking questions. This does a few things; it lets you know if she is self-aware enough to even recognize this problem, it also gives her the opportunity to address the problem in her own words, as opposed to getting her defenses up, and she may also let you know she is going through a difficult time because of something specific.
      I would start by asking her how she is, have a little chit-chat about the upcoming holidays, etc. Then I would ask her something like “How have things been going around here?” Something open-ended. If she just says “fine” then I would ask her about a specific task/project in which she works with one of the people she has a problem with, and ask how that project is going and if there are any issues. If she isn’t bringing it up, then you will have to ask “I have noticed a few interactions that seemed tense, can you tell me about those?” And she what she says.

      Good luck, and I hope you will report back!

    2. Legally a Vacuum*

      Personal interactions are still part of professional behavior- you absolutely have standing to address this, and it may be easier to frame it around her actions. It’s not about how she feels, it’s about what she does.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I figure part of my job is to be able to work in a civil manner with my colleagues, no matter what my personal feelings may be. I use the word colleagues and not coworkers because it’s broader and therefore harder to argue that a freelancer or counterpart at another organization is exempt from civility.

      Civil behavior isn’t specific to a job or a role, it should be understood that this is part of being an adult with a job (along with things like showing up and completing your work).

    4. fposte*

      You absolutely can and should counsel employees who are underperforming on interpersonal relations. It’s part of what they’re paid to do. Given that this seems like it might be a recent change, I think Buttons has a point about asking her what’s up. However, I’d get to the point pretty quickly after that so that it doesn’t seem like you were trying to sugarcoat a direct requirement. You have an excellent specific recent example to point to, so use it. “Jane, it seems like you’ve struggled with being unhappy lately. We can talk about that in more detail, but it’s obligatory for people here to treat one another politely and respectfully, and comments like yours to Lavinia about her not being a real employee aren’t acceptable. Can you agree to treat people courteously going forward?”

      Depending on what “sensitive” means, that might need to be managed in its own right. “I understand this isn’t pleasant to hear, but I have to be able to give you feedback for you to succeed in this job.” Are you having regular 1-1s with her where you can give feedback on an ongoing basis? Because those make a huge difference.

  98. Environmental Compliance*

    Question for EHS peeps – is VirtualVocations worth it for finding wfh EHS jobs?

    I had tried FlexJobs and they have minimal EHS positions, so I don’t want to pay the money to find out VV is the same.

    Boss is driving everyone nuts still. I now have a recruiter to work with, so that’s cool. I know it’s the holidays, but I’d love to get contacted for an interview and not just keep sending stuff out into a black hole of applications.

  99. CR*

    I started a new job at the end of November after a year of being beaten down by two organizations that were so dysfunctional and crazy (gotta love non-profits). I was so depressed and thought my career was over. But it’s amazing how much better I feel now that I’m working in a place where I’m valued, where we encourage each other, and where I’m not micromanaged. It makes the other stuff (structural issues, board issues, etc) so much easier to deal with. And the office is closed for two weeks for Christmas!

    1. new kid*

      Feeling this myself right now – such a relief to be in a better situation. Huge congrats on the new gig!!!

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I left my last non-profit in October and it’s been so freeing! It was the worst of the 8 orgs I’ve worked for over the past 20 years. I look forward to working with a great non-profit in 2020. For now I’m pro bono consulting.

      Yeah on the time off! Have a great new year!

    3. DC/VA*

      Oh this is so good to hear!! Congrats to you. I am losing hope on believing that I can find a place that’s going to be better than here, but it’s really encouraging to hear that it can still happen.

  100. Peaches*

    Our main customer service rep’s last day was yesterday. He was an excellent employee, and we were sad to see him go. He left on good terms – he’s going into youth ministry which is what he’s always wanted to do. I (as the secondary customer service rep, since I do contract work, too) am covering for him for the time being. I was a bit stressed about it (how long would it take to replace him, will I have to train the new person, etc.)

    However, I heard last week from our warehouse manager, Bob, that he has actually applied for the position. My manager, Julie, also mentioned this to me, and said Bob will almost certainly get the position. He actually was a customer service rep for us about 3 years ago, before moving to warehouse manager. He was a solid employee up front, and I’m actually excited about him moving back up front, since he already knows how to do the job. However, our sales people (all 6 of them) are IRATE about this because Bob has a tattoo on the back of his neck, and they don’t want him sitting at the main front desk being “the face of the company.” They have talked about banning together and talking to Julie to ensure that Bob doesn’t get the position.

    I think this is ridiculous for several reasons: 1.) The tattoo isn’t very visible. You would only possibly notice it if his back was to you (and may not even notice it then depending on what he’s wearing, as it’s fairly low on his neck 2.) We are a very blue collar industry. About 95% of our walk in customers are manual laborers who I very much doubt have any concern for someone having a tattoo, or not looking professional (which by the way, Bob does not *actually* look unprofessional.) 3.) We are not at ALL a primarily walk-in business. 99% of our products are shipped directly out of our warehouse to our customers, meaning we only have about 1-4 walk in customers a WEEK. 4.) It’s almost 2020 and tattoos should be more acceptable, ESPECIALLY in the industry I work in. Bob dresses professionally, and is clean cut. The tattoo should be a non issue. 5.) Bob has LITERALLY done this job before and was good at it. It’s crazy to me that the salespeople would rather bring in a new employee from the outside to be trained than have a smooth transition (especially considering the fact that we’ve had some VERY incompetent people come through customer service over the years).

    Anyway, I don’t know if I can do anything to stop the salespeople, or if it will make any difference to whether Julie decides to hire Bob. Just hoping that Bob gets the opportunity he deserves!

    1. Buttons*

      They are being ridiculous. Hopefully, Julie doesn’t listen to them. If their concerns are valid, then all she has to do is ask him to wear a collared shirt to keep it covered.

    2. LizB*

      They’re being absurd. The role is customer service rep, not neck model — I bet not a single customer will notice, especially if Bob wears collared shirts.

    4. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      As long as Julie knows you support Bob’s bid, then that’s all you can do, I think. But fingers crossed for him! Totally agree with everything you’ve written, and he sounds like he’d be a great fit.

    5. Marthooh*

      It’s so strange to me that ALL SIX of your salesfolk are up in arms about this. I’m betting it’s actually either one person stirring the shit as hard as they can, or they have some other objection to Bob they haven’t mentioned.

      1. Peaches*

        I’m betting it’s actually either one person stirring the shit as hard as they can, or they have some other objection to Bob they haven’t mentioned.

        My guess is the former. One of our salespeople, Regina is very dramatic and tends to have strong opinions on everything. She also tends to talk poorly about people who disagree with her behind their backs. So, I do think that if any salespeople DID disagree with her on this particular topic, they would find it more trouble than what it’s worth to say so (which, may prove to be really unfair to Bob depending on what shakes out.)

  101. The Nonniest Moose*

    Question(s) about notice and taking a new job for folks in higher ed. What do I do when a job’s start date doesn’t line up with the semesters? I know Alison’s usual advice is “people leave jobs, it’s never a good time, everyone manages”, but in academia, there *is* a good time: summer, or between semesters, and this job won’t allow that.

    I’m currently fixed-term faculty at College A (meaning a yearlong contract with good benefits but no guarantee of further work). I just interviewed for an academic staff position at College B that is very in line with my professional and personal goals. College B says they’ll let me know in early January and would like the position to start in late January/early February, for excellent reasons related to a grant cycle and the position needing to have time to work with faculty to prepare for Fall 2020. Problem is, College B will let me know in either the first or second week of College A’s semester.

    I know the College A department chairs will be understanding when I tell them “this amazing opportunity came up abruptly” (which is true – College B is doing things late and fast with this hire). But I also feel personally and professionally unethical just dropping those classes in week 4 or 5 of the semester. That’s rough on students, it’s rough on the dept, it’s rough on whatever colleague has to take over. There’s a chance I can negotiate teaching one of the classes (an online one), but both would be impossible. But if I don’t get offered this job at College B, I need both my College A classes in order to maintain benefits, so I’m really wary of telling the dept chair at College A for fear that he will (logically) give the class to someone else.

    Am I overthinking the “academia is different” thing? How do I handle this? I can’t get an answer any earlier from College B because they’re all on vacation until Jan 2.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, ouch. That’s going to leave a bad taste. I’m reminded of the signs on parking garage entries: “Do not reverse; severe tire damage will result.” This is a big no-backsies with College A and maybe with contract teaching in the field.

      When you say you know they’ll be understanding, does that mean you know they’ll let you out of the contract? Is it for the department chair to say or does that go up to the dean? If there’s a lawyer in the area who’d be familiar with college A I might check with them to see what they say about the contract portion.

      I gotta say I’m leaning toward talking to college B about making it clear you’re obligated for two classes until the end of the semester and figuring out a way at least to propose it happens if you take the job. If College A has a doc student or somebody in the wings who can get rolled into the course they might be able to be magnanimous, but around here just leaving mid-semester would be a very bitter pill to swallow.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        Great news – College B offered me the job this evening! They met before going on break specifically to offer me the position. So there will be a bit of a scramble for College A, but pre-semester scramble rather than middle-of-semester scramble. And I’m talking with colleagues who might want to pick up a class or two, just to offer that possibility to the department chairs.

        As added context, College A is actually Enormous Public University A – they hire dozens of people every year to teach the kinds of classes I’m teaching. Not that it won’t be an inconvenience, and not that I’m cavalier at all about the ripple effects, but it’ll be far less of an inconvenience than if it were really a college or smaller institution.

    2. Academia Plus Ultra*

      My school is on trimesters and it rarely works out that leaving/start dates line up. It’s something the department should be prepared for. All of our syllabi are in a folder on the department drive and if/when someone leaves mid term, someone else can pick up the course (and the extra money) and the other person leaves to their new job. It’s an inconvenience, but it’s not the end of the world.

      But I wouldn’t say anything until you have the offer from College B. Then you do what you can to make the transition easier on everyone, even if that means stepping aside a bit earlier than you expected.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        I appreciate that suggestion of asking how I can make the transition easier – be it teach the class until the end of January or step aside now.

  102. Freelance question*

    An acquaintance of mine was hired by a company as a freelancer and the company gave her a 5K check to buy supplies. Does that really happen? I thought freelancers generally supplied their own supplies. From what I’ve heard, I think the company sounds kimd a shady but I’m wondering what other readers who freelance would think of being given a large check to purchase supplies.

    1. Mainely Professional*

      It really depends.

      What distinguishes (in the US, legally) a contractor from an employee, broadly, is that contractors are not told how, when, and where to do their work. And yeah, typically contractors provide their own supplies/office equipment. Assuming that they aren’t being treated as an employee in other ways, this is probably fine. If the contract is to decorate 70 teapots and the contractor is being paid to decorate them but the project requires $5000 worth of paint and glitter, it could be reasonable for the company to give her the money to buy those supplies.

      1. Freelance question*

        That’s a good point. I’m hearing the information secondhand but I don’t think the money directly for project related supplies. The work she does is all digital, so what I heard was that the money was for a laptop, a printer and software maybe? Which I believe she already all has.

    2. Natalie*

      Hmmmmm. Any chance it’s a remote job and they told her to send any excess funds back? For whatever reason this sounds a bit advance-fee-fraud like to me.

      1. Freelance question*

        I have no idea if the job is remote or if they asked her to send back the excess funds. She deposited the check and when she went to transfer money, she got a notice of return of deposited item. Supposedly the company thought she was too busy and now is sending her the supplies. It is super fishy sounding to me but I also know that my opinion would not be welcome.

        1. Natalie*

          Yeah, that definitely sounds sketchy. I don’t know, you might not want to say upfront that it sounds like a scam, since people get defensive, but it might be worth noting (once!) that they seems disorganized to a level that is risky to her.

      1. Freelance question*

        I have no idea if she thinks this is a scam or not. I’m not close enough to her to ask and from past experience I know my input would be unwanted. I wanted to know if this was something done in the freelance world send it sounds like it really isn’t.

  103. cubiclecrackers*

    I have a job interview later today. It’s the third-and-final round of interviews. I’ve come this far… and I’m not sure how I feel about it now.

    I know this is true, but please remind me: I am not required to accept a job offer if it doesn’t seem right for me. I may not get an offer, but if I do, it’s up to me.

    Right?

    I would just feel so guilty, is all…

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      You are interviewing the company during this process as well. Just because they make you an offer does not mean that they earned your acceptance.

    2. MsM*

      You are not required to accept a job offer if it doesn’t seem right for you. This isn’t about how much they like you as a person, or even how well they think you fit or how badly they need someone. It has to be mutual, or it’s not going to be a good experience for anyone.

    3. Buttons*

      You do not have to accept a position that is offered to you. If you don’t feel it is the right fit, for whatever reasons, you can decline. They will have a second and third choice to offer the job to. Do what is best for you!

    4. MissGirl*

      When I interviewed, I was a ball of guilt. Guilt at possibly leaving my company, guilt at turning down an offer. I just kept reminding myself this is business and all I need to do is behave professionally and honestly.

    5. College Career Counselor*

      Remember to ask people (if you haven’t already) what they like best about the place and what they find the most challenging. Look at the nonverbals of people you are meeting with. I interviewed with a group a few years ago, and not ONE PERSON in a room of 12 people interviewing me had a smile on their face. This was the group that I’d be managing. Since this is the 3rd round, see if you are getting consistent reads off people.

    7. nep*

      Others have given great comments and advice here. I would just say, if you mean guilt over the time they have put in–think about it, candidates invest a lot of time and energy in long interview processes and of course not every one lands the job. That’s just the nature of it.
      Completely agree with Legally a Vacuum, and a great reminder–you’re interviewing them as well.
      All the best, whatever you decide.

  104. Anon Phd*

    Job search question…I am questioning my sanity in my job search. As I previously posted in the summer, I finished my PhD in STEM this year. I have employment in a big teapot engineering corporation, but the company isn’t doing well, the morale is crap, because of a ton of uncertainty and layoffs over the summer, and so I’ve started job searching as of July. I’ve been doing all the right things, reaching out to former classmates and colleagues who are working at places that I might be interested in, but man, I think I overdid it. A fellow lady engineer, who is sort of like my mentor, recommended I look into management consulting and banking / commerce. So, kind of on a whim, I reached out to a former classmate who does this kind of work, we met this week and he, being a friendly and helpful guy, who is also very business savvy connected me with someone at his organization, since they are all about enhancing their technology given how the world is evolving nowadays. People…I am responding to the email introduction email and thinking – What am I doing? On the one hand, it could be an interesting coffee with his colleague to see what that world offers, very different from teapot engineering, but am I really going to get into banking and commerce? I’m so appreciative that him and his colleague are willing to help me..but I am thinking, maybe I will be wasting their time? Has anyone ever gone through that, job search/networking overdoing?

    1. Buttons*

      I don’t think you are overdoing it. I think you are exploring options and learning about an industry you might want to be a part of. I think the people you are meeting with, are aware of that. Go in with a list of questions about their industry, and it won’t be a waste of their time. I am truly passionate about my job/industry and have met with a lot of people over the years to tell them about it, and to tell them what they need to be successful. I have never felt it was a waste of time if they didn’t want to do what I do.

  105. Annabelle*

    Hey all! An update from about a month ago – I wrote in asking for advice on a former coworker who wouldn’t get the hint that I didn’t want to go on a solo trip with him.

    I read all the advice and was working on the “perfect response” when I went home for Thanksgiving. While there, I posted a photo on Instagram about being home, and he messaged me saying something along the lines of “Wow, looks like you do have time to travel.” I ignored that, and ended up sending a text message a week later saying that my priorities in time off and travel had changed so I wouldn’t be able to go on the trip, and apologized for causing him to delay his trips. He had a follow up but I just reiterated that I wouldn’t be able to and thanked him for understanding. Since then, no contact!

    I do have a birthday trip coming up that I’m already hesitant to post about because I know he’ll comment on it, but for now I’m appreciating not getting inundated with messages!

    1. Buttons*

      I missed your original post, but unfriend him, or restrict what he can see on your social media. This isn’t normal, and in fact it is creepy. He has no business commenting on what you do with your free time. Don’t let him have access to your personal life.

      1. Phoenix Wright*

        Yep, this guy sounds toxic. OP shouldn’t have to worry about how her posts will look like to him, so deleting and blocking him seems like the best course of action.

        Hope you have fun on the birthday trip!

    2. Anon Phd*

      Agree with Buttons’s advice, 100%, and I also didn’t see your original post. This dude is creepy with poor boundaries.

  106. ConfusedFriend*

    There’s not much I can do about this situation but vent so here I go. This is a messy personal/work situation.

    My friend married a guy after about six months of dating. I know she got a lot of flack from people so I tried to be supportive and focus on her happiness. A few months ago, she admitted he’s turned out to be fairly manipulative and she’s struggling. I listened as best I could and told her I’d support her no matter her decision. I haven’t brought up the subject since, wanting to follow her lead.

    A few weeks ago, I went to see her at their house and spoke to him a grand total of 30 seconds about nothing when he opened the door. During their next fight, he told her I told him what a lousy husband he was and I want their marriage to end or something along those lines. She didn’t believe him, but now he’s pulled me into their relationship in an uncomfortable way.

    We also all work together. Luckily for me the job is part time and seasonal but I dread going there and running into him. There’s no way of avoiding his area because we’re all over. I probably will run into him a few times, and I plan to say nothing but hello. Hopefully, I wouldn’t be alone with him. I just hate that a place I used to love is now something I’m anxious about. I also hate that all I can do for my friend is offer my love and hope things work out.

    1. Buttons*

      Ugg he is crazy and I am sorry you are in that position. But you are doing everything right. Just be supportive and never ever say anything bad about him :)

  107. quirkypants*

    I’m finding myself perplexed by a new employee I hired about 6 months ago. I lead a department of 6 in a small organization, and when I hired this employee I had high hopes that as the team grew I could promote him into more senior roles. Right now I would characterize him more like middle management.

    A couple situations have me particularly perplexed.

    There is one area of his job but he sees as tedious, but it’s actually critical to the success of our department and he knew this was part of his job description when I hired him. It’s an area that’s seen as not very glamourous by some but it actually has a huge impact and can be very strategic.

    Recently he suggested but this area is taking up too much of his time and he prefers to spend his time on more “high level tasks”. Nevermind that I disagree with him that this area is somehow below him, he does get to focus on other areas he agrees are “high level”.

    What had me extra-stumped is he asked me if I could do it so he could focus on the higher level thinking work. I was shocked! He sees this as lower level thinking but thought his boss should take it on? Of course, I said no, explained it’s integral to his role and important to the organization… But should I have said more? I was caught off guard.

    The second thing I’m noticing… we work closely and collaboratively with two other departments (think sales + marketing, as an example). I find he jumps on their ideas and requests and he seems to be trying harder to make other departments happy than follow through on the items we already have planned, will help us hit our goals, or I ask him to prioritize. We’ve had several direct conversations about this.

    I’m not sure if there is something bigger here. Does anyone have any suggestions from experience? Am I missing a perspective here on his side of things.

    I think he has lot of potential but I would like to get to the bottom of these things.

    1. MsM*

      If this continues, it sounds like you need to have a fairly blunt conversation in which you lay out for him once and for all that while he may have other projects he’s more interested in or positions he’d like to be working toward, this is what you hired him to do, and his inability to focus on demonstrating his professionalism and commitment with the tasks he’s been assigned do not bode well for his future success with the company in any capacity.

    2. fposte*

      What’s been said in those direct conversations? It sounds like there’s a goals misalignment that may not be about a misunderstanding but about his wanting a different job than he has. And he gets to do that, and maybe you want to talk about amicably helping him find that job with an end date of when you’ll need to hire somebody else in, but in the mean time he has to do the job he’s hired for, not the job he wants to do.

      1. quirkypants*

        I’ve told him, almost word for word:

        – “lower level area” is critical to our success and part of your role. You can be quite strategic how you approach this.

        – our first responsibility is to our own goals and our own department plan. I agree we should collaborate with team X but ultimately were the experts in Y and I need you to advocate for our best interests.

        I’m known for being very direct. I’m more likely to be too blunt than not direct enough.

        1. fposte*

          Sounds like it’s time for the “We need to consider if this is the right job for you” talk. It sure sounds like he wants it to be something else than you need.

      2. quirkypants*

        I also told him I was surprised that he suggested his boss should focus on areas he saw as lower level, when in fact, I have a number of priorities that relate to our overall department performance and planning.

        (Maybe this is a case where I was too blunt or lacked tact)

        1. fposte*

          None of this sounds tactless or notably blunt, just clearly factual. I think it’s just that his desires are clashing with your facts.

        2. MsM*

          “Surprised” sounds quite tactful to me, honestly. I’d have been tempted to go a bit further and suggest that if he doesn’t understand why that idea’s a non-starter without you needing to lay out what you actually do for him, he’s not as ready to take on a higher-level role as he thinks.

          1. quirkypants*

            Thank you, I appreciate that perspective! I am glad it sounded tactful…

            I agree with your perspective, re: him not being ready.

  108. DC/VA*

    How do I know that I’m actually a qualified candidate, or that companies I’ve been working for/interviewing for are just desperate for any person? My current workplace is so toxic, I even overheard we’ve gotten such a bad reputation that it’s taken seven offers for one of the open positions to be filled! I didn’t know this going in, and now interviewing for other jobs, I’m wondering if there’s something wrong with me. That I got this job just because they’re desperate, not because I’m qualified. And now the places I’m interviewing for (and gotten two offers so far, but I’ve turned them down either because of salary or equally bad culture) are just the same. Like, will I find another healthy workplace? I’m having all kinds of spiraling thoughts about this.

    1. Buttons*

      Oof. You have to change that voice in your head. Are you doing research on the corporate culture before applying? If a company doesn’t have a good reputation, I don’t even bother applying. If I get into the interview and it feels wrong/toxic I don’t move forward with additional interviews.
      If they are interviewing you, then your resume is telling them you have the skills and experience necessary. Interviews are to verify the level of those skills, and to see if you are a right fit for each other.
      Good luck!

      1. DC/VA*

        Thank you! I am trying to do my best with researching them online, and if I know someone who knows someone, asking them about the culture (but often it’s a company I don’t have connections to.) I’m going to therapy to try and suss this all out as well. I think that just being in a toxic environment has beat me down and made me think there’s nothing better for me after this.

  109. Joie*

    I have lately been considering moving to Scotland from Canada. I’ve been looking at my options and I think I’d be aiming for a Tier 2 visa.

    Does anyone on here have any experience job hunting in the UK for sponsorship that they could give me some tips on? Any weird social etiquette things that I wouldn’t know being from North America? And what exactly is the difference between a resume and a CV? I keep getting conflicting results on google for that one.

    1. Sassy Spacek*

      A CV is a resume it’s just a different name in the UK, I think that in academia worldwide though a CV is something else.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, academic CVs include comprehensive lists of all the papers you’ve published, lectures you’ve given, classes you’ve taught, etc. If you’re not applying for a university teaching role, that’s probably not what they’re looking for.

    2. SarahKay*

      UK person here – I grew up referring primarily to CV’s rather than resumes, but (outside of academia) I’d agree the terms are interchangeable. The standards I was taught for CV is max 2 sides of A4 (letter) paper in a reasonably-sized font, so very much in line with what Alison says for resumes.
      We don’t do thank you notes after interviews though. I can remember seeing that advice when I first started reading AAM and thinking, worriedly, “Oh, gosh, have I been missing this my whole life?!?” I was very glad a few weeks later when someone else confirmed it wasn’t a UK thing at all.

  110. Cowgirlinhiding*

    Just wanted to say “Thank You” for Allison and all everyone that has submitted questions and comments on this thread. ANON – thank you for the positive message two weeks ago when I was having impostor syndrome times 1000. I was able to kill my interviews, get an awesome job offer, talk to my current bosses when a counter offer was made, and now in the process of wrapping things up and training my replacement. I do think Allison is right on about counter offers too. I was thinking about taking the counter offer, but after reading the information Allison posted, it was clear, why didn’t they keep moving my pay up over the years and I have been here long enough to know the culture isn’t going to change.

    Without this community, it wouldn’t have been so smooth, and I was so prepared and confident. This is a big step up, but I know I can do it with a community to back me up when I have questions. Thank you everyone!!!! Here’s to a great holiday season!

  111. Babytime2020*

    Today is my last day of work- I gave 3 weeks notice with nothing lined up. The company was dysfunctional. Our department was under a ton of pressure and no one listened to data saying we needed to go in a different direction. Then they secretly hired a new boss effective immediately, moving my old boss who had built the team over 7 years out in the day they started.

    I gave it a shot but things weren’t getting better, and I’m 5 months pregnant so I decided to part ways now and enjoy my last few months childless before Life Is Never The Same ™. I’m excited! It’s scary to be taking such a long break but as I watched the company get closer to AAM levels of dysfunction it was time to get off the boatfire.

    One thing though…we hired a new member for my team who thinks she will be working under me. Someone told me I should leave a note to her wishing her well and that I’d be sad I won’t be working with her (true) but to me that seems….really weird. Its weird enough that she won’t have the boss she thinks she will. Am I right on this?

    1. MsM*

      Is there any specific documentation you need to leave for her? I don’t think it’d be inappropriate to preface that with a note saying you’re sorry you won’t have the opportunity to walk her through it.

    1. new kid*

      I’ve got the whole two weeks – 8 days ‘holiday time’ and 2 as PTO. I’ve never worked at an org that gives the entire week+ and I’m so looking forward to it. I likely would have taken the time anyway because I now have to fly to see family, but with everyone off it means it’s an honest break and I won’t come back to a full inbox. What a concept!!

    3. Construction Safety*

      All of them. 4.5 days of regular PTO and 1.5 days of “claw-back” PTO after they changed the policy & I lost 3 days.

    4. Buttons*

      I am going to finish up around 1:00 today and will be off until January 6. My company gives us the week of Christmas off until Jan 1, and I took 2 days of PTO to make it a full two weeks. This will be the first time in my 6 years at this company that I am taking 2 full weeks off!

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Dec. 25 and Jan. 1 are company holidays. Everything else is a normal workday, and starting Monday I’ll be using up my vacation time by working half-days until the end of the year.

    6. CR*

      The whole two weeks, and the office is actually closed so it’s not part of my PTO. I will be checking email from home though.

    7. Bilateralrope*

      I work security. Christmas does not disrupt our regular roster (4 days on, 4 days off) and leave requests are usually declined as summer is our busiest time of year. All things I knew going into this job.

      Still, I got Christmas day off for the previous three years. So i cant be too annoyed that I have to work it this year.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We’re closed from Tuesday through January 1. I have some stuff to do, though, so I’ll probably do no more than an hour every day from my vacation. It’s not taken from our PTO, thank goodness– we’re really, truly closed.

    9. Art3mis*

      Company holidays are December 25 and January 1. I took four days of PTO next week. We were also offered to take a half day on the Eves if we want, but we’d have to make that time up during the week on top of the 3 hours of mandatory overtime we have to do. I don’t know about anyone else, but I passed on that deal.

    10. littlelizard*

      We only have Christmas itself and Jan 1st off. I’m taking more time off to visit my partner’s parents and my own (working a total of 3 days over the next 2 weeks).

    11. montescristo1985*

      I’m basically off from noon today until Thursday, Jan 2nd. I’m on vacation the week of Christmas and working from home (if I’m needed only) on Monday and Tuesday (30&31). I am so excited because we’ve had a very very hectic year and I desperately need the time off.

    12. Free Meercats*

      I have Christmas Day and New Years day as holidays. The two guys who work for me are travelling to see family, so I’ll be in the office the rest of Christmas week – unless the mayor puts out for people to go home early Christmas Eve. Even with that, I need to come into the office every day from now until the 30th to feed the office cat because the other two guys are out of town. So I’ll be in the office every day for a bit.
      I have two use it or lose it days still on the books, so I’m taking the 30th and 31st off for a 5 day weekend.

    13. College Career Counselor*

      I am out of the office Dec. 23-Jan. 3. Only three of those days (12/23, jan 2-3) are leave. The rest are college holidays/the place is closed.

    14. TiffanyAching*

      The whole two weeks! Higher Ed has its issues, but the Winter Break sure helps smooth some of that over.

    15. Coverage Associate*

      I started a new job December 3, so I am not taking any time off this month.
      Firm closes 2pm 12/24 and 12/31. Firm is closed 12/25 and 1/1. I will probably work from home sometime in the next few weeks, though.

    17. Fikly*

      5 out of 14! An extra day, whee!

      (Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, and Monday and Thursday, if you were wondering. I work overnights in a job that needs 24/7/365 coverage.)

    18. TiffIf*

      I have Dec 25 and Jan 1 off as paid holiday. I’m taking a half day of PTO on Dec 24 and Jan 30 (it would be the 31st but I have a Dr’s appointment so its just easier).

    19. LQ*

      In government. The 25th and the 1st. Though I’ll likely end up working at least one of them. Quite possibly both. (Salaried so no holiday pay or anything.)

  113. ACarName*

    I’m so frustrated with this job searching process. I have been in communication with an organization since November and it has been chaotic.

    I’ve gotten broken job links, have had to re-apply for the position twice. The recruiter canceled phone screen on me twice and I had to email her for clarification as to why it was suddenly canceled.

    Now, I’ve gotten my actual phone screen and she’s talked about doing an interview and at the time of my phone screen asked my availability and I gave it.

    Days later, on Tuesday at 9pm she asks my availability for a Thursday & Friday interview. I give it to her the next morning and now I haven’t heard from her. I really do not think i should continue this job process with this company. I know it is the holidays but this is ridiculous. Any advice or any one had this happen before?

    1. MsM*

      No, but I probably would’ve given up somewhere around the second reapplication. I think you’re well within your rights to move on.

  114. AnonLurkerAppa*

    How much of my job is to make sure my (mostly peer) coworkers do their jobs?

    I work in a laboratory, and management is very far removed from our day to day work. Staff rotate from one analysis or set of analyses to another, week to week and also within a week. As a result, I and my coworkers are the first people to see when something was done incorrectly or forgotten, not management.

    I have some coworkers who are very kind about pointing this out. Other coworkers seem to seek out errors, sometime exaggerating the importance of pretty trivial things, and sometimes bring these errors to our manager before bringing it to the person who made the mistake. I pretty much never bring mistakes to our manager’s attention, sometimes to our supervisor, usually just to whoever made the mistake.

    When I bring errors or mistakes to one particular coworkers, they get really aggressive with me, often turning it into a discussion instead of just fixing the error. My therapist said its not my job to make sure my other coworkers are doing their jobs correctly, so I’ve just basically stopped letting this coworker (lets call them Pip) know when I see something they did wrong. My therapist’s take hasn’t sat well with me. I feel like the people who are often make sure other do their work are higher up in our manager’s good graces. On one hand, of course management wants other people to be doing their job for them (we are kinda dysfunctional), and on the other, we should all care about the work we are doing and making sure it is as good as possible, and working together to get that done.

    What do you all say?

    1. Brownie*

      Ultimately I agree with your therapist. Pip’s job performance is not your job (it should actually be your supervisor/manager’s job in a functional workplace). You’ve tried to help them, they’ve refused your help, at this point you have no further obligation to help them by pointing out errors. But yeah, doing that feels bad, like you’re setting Pip up for failure and not acting like a team player. Try to remember that being a team player does not mean deliberately putting yourself in a position where you’re taking responsibility for Pip’s failures or being hurt by them. In a case like this it is perfectly fine to be selfish and say “I tried to help Pip, they refused, it’s okay not to help them any more.”

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think I would want to unpack this a bit. There are a few parts I can see:
      -Managing your colleague’s feelings/reactions (not your job at all)
      -Your coworkers’ varying approach to pointing out mistakes (not your circus, not your monkeys)
      -Bringing mistakes to their attention (possibly your job, based on what you’ve said is the team/company culture)
      -Helping your coworkers do their job correctly/find solutions (does not sound like that is your responsibility, with exceptions)

      It sounds like you’re focused on what to do about Pip (or maybe that’s PIP?). The questions I suggest asking yourself are:

      1) Are you willing to deal with Pip’s attitude when mistakes happen?
      2) What are the costs and benefits of not telling Pip versus telling Pip? Keeping in mind that you have other coworkers who are more open to listening, so is that sufficient to keep yourself in your supervisor’s/manager’s good graces?

      If you decide to re-start telling Pip about mistakes, can you frame it as follows?

      You: “FYI, this happened”
      Pip: “(Attempts to argue/start a discussion)”
      You: “No, we don’t need to talk about this. I’m going back to work now” and physically disengaging (moving back to your station, turning away, etc.)

  115. PhD Panic*

    I’m in the process of applying to competitive PhD programs, and I just got my first rejection and am anticipating many more to come. How do y’all deal with rejection when you know it’s what everyone goes through?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Think of it as trying on shoes. The shoe salesperson at Nordstrom will bring you eight pairs of shoes but only one pair will fit. Look at the rejections as good shoes that just didn’t fit. It’s just a long drawn-out process.

    2. SciProf*

      Learn to deliberately celebrate the part you can control (submitting an application you wrote to the best of your ability), not just the ultimate outcome (acceptance/rejection). That doesn’t stop rejection from hurting if/when it comes, but it’s a reminder to yourself of the hard work you put in.

  116. Anon the Third*

    I’m a baby librarian and I’ll be going to the ALA conference in Chicago next summer. I’m not looking for a job now, but will be in a couple of years, so I’d like to make some solid connections. Any tips? Are business cards recommended? How dressed up should I be- is normal work clothing okay or should I be a little dressier?

    1. fposte*

      ALA is fun, if overwhelming. Business cards are a cheap investment so it wouldn’t hurt to get some made. Go to relevant panels, of course, but also go to relevant social and networking-type occasions–your library school may well be having an alumni event, for instance, or you can check in with your school cohort and reconnect.

      Normal work clothes are fine, but shoes should definitely be comfy. It will probably be hot in Chicago and the convention center is not really walkable to the hotel and meeting areas, which are more Loop based, so be ready for that, but also consider the traditional librarian cardigan for the A/C interiors.

      1. Another Academic Librarian*

        Seconding this–comfy shoes are a must! I always do so much walking at ALA.

        When ALA is in Chicago, I usually stay around Millennium Park. From there, you can walk to a lot of the conference hotels in the area, but also to places that you might want to visit after meetings (restaurants, museums, Magnificent Mile, etc), plus public transportation to and from the airport(s), etc. If you stay in or near a conference hotel, you will have access to a free shuttle that will take you to and from the convention center. In other cities, I often opt to walk instead of waiting for the shuttle, but in Chicago the convention center is so far away from most hotels that waiting often seems like a better option.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      ALA is great! However, it’s a HUGE conference and can be really hard to do some serious networking.

      My tip is to scout out the events that allow you to participate. There are round table discussions where you get to talk with ~15 other librarians about a specific topic, and to me these are the most useful for networking. Pick a topic you’re really passionate and care about, participate in the discussion, and don’t get to caught up in the networking component. You’re not handing out business cards to everyone at the table with a “call me in a year!”, but if there’s someone you really connect with, exchanging business cards would be very appropriate. Panel discussions can also be useful, especially if you stay after to talk with one of the panelists and ask some questions. There are also some individual mentorship programs for various Divisions and Round Tables, you might look into one of these.

      Librarians run the gamut for attire, so I think normal work clothing is totally acceptable, although you might (?) stand out if you aim for a little more polish than normal.

      Leave extra room in your luggage for all those books and free swag you’re going to pick up.

      Nothing like 20,000+ librarians descending on a city. Have fun!

    3. Ms Fieryworth*

      ALA is great fun! I recommend that if you’re doing the business card you should always have a pencil/pen ready to write on the back how you met that person. I second the advice about looking for sessions that are interactive. Try at least one that’s outside your knowledge area. Get to sessions early, the popular ones run out of seats quickly (basically anything to do with working with people or in management).

      I also found it useful to wear comfy clothes and walking shoes. Recommend you bring a sweater for cold rooms, headphones, and a phone charger. If you have mobility needs, they provide free scooters. There’s also usually a lot of water bottle refilling stations.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Oh, ALA a conference I secretly hate, but I am probably still going this year. My biggest advice is wear something comfortable. Chicago is miserable in June. Good shoes are a must. Had I known then what I know now, I would have gone to the specific committee meetings of the committees I was interested in joining (most are open) in the subgroups I was interested in. However, you may not yet be able to do that sort of thing if you’re not sure what type of librarianship you want to go into. I would also advise, as fposte did, that social events are a must. Meeting people is, after all, half the point. Get cards and I like to note on them where/what I talked with the person about so I can send a follow up email after the event referencing our conversation.

  117. Hello Commentariat*

    Hello all! I just have a quick question for you all that I won’t provide any context for. My male boss has been saying a few things to me (female) that I believe to be somewhat sexist. For example, he told me I was “scolding him like a child” and then at a later date told me I needed an “attitude adjustment.” In my mind I find these things to be pretty sexist and I just want other people’s take on it. There is also other signs of sexism in the office, there are seven of us and only my boss and the other male employee are getting raises this year while all the women get COLA as well. Only the women in the office are on our health insurance and he regularly complains about how high our insurance is because of the “demographics” in the office (aka 5 women, 4 of which are of child-bearing age) and has cut our insurance significantly for next year as well.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      The raise disparity and the comments about the health insurance are way more concerning to me than the language, although I can definitely see that as a symptom of an overall sexist atmosphere.

      1. Hello Commentariat*

        Thanks for the response. To be honest, I feel like I am making a mountain out of a molehill sometimes.

        1. valentine*

          I feel like I am making a mountain out of a molehill sometimes.
          No, and you gotta get outta there.

          The scolding/attitude comments are age-old sexism. Maybe he’ll break out the word schoolmarm like people do wedlock.

      2. Sunflower*

        I agree with this- but also, your boss just sounds like an a-hole. If your boss has an issue with your attitude, there are 100 more professional ways to talk to you about it besides saying you need an attitude adjustment. I’m not sure how you feel about working there overall so I’m not going to tell you to definitely look for another job but I’d have a hard time enjoying work with a boss like this!!

        1. Hello Commentariat*

          Oh I really really hate my job. The “attitude adjustment” conversation was because I told him I didn’t feel comfortable with a project he threw at me (writing a formal report to the board about a board retreat that happened before I started). I had asked for a promotion to Director of Llama Relations from my current position of Llama Relations Specialist because I found the job description for Director of Llama Relations, which was previously held by my male coworker until he was promoted, and I have done every single one of the job responsibilities over this past year. In the same conversation, I also basically got demoted to an administrative assistant and am now doing all of our admin work.

    2. LilySparrow*

      I’m not seeing it the two phrases you mentioned but the raise disparity and the insurance issues are bad.

  118. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I got a chance to say no to my boss this week! I’ve taken on far too much and been a little bit of a pushover in the past, so I’ve been actively trying to find a few places to practice saying no. I searched for past letters about saying no or pushing back on your boss, and I think I did it in a very positive way with suggestions about how we could still meet the goal for the assigned task. I’m proud of myself.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        This happened over email and I haven’t got a response yet (normal for us, boss works in a different building and has been in and out this week).

  119. Sassy Spacek*

    I am thinking of moving to Vancouver from London but as someone who works as a librarian I’m worried it will take a long time to get a job if even possible. I’m also worried that I’m overestimating how hard it is to get a job in general, though, since I’m used to it being almost impossible. Are there any library adjacent jobs which may be easier to get or is it possible to get temp work in e.g. a different field such as admin?

  120. Qwerty*

    Any recommendations on a free or low cost task tracking site for solo work? I use Jira for programming projects at work, but it is mainly configured for project-based systems, so I don’t have the option of creating a board for just me. I used to be almost exclusively dedicated to programming or software projects, but lately I’ve been given a dozen side roles such as office manager, running several committees, and departmental management. My list of side tasks has grown too big to be effectively managed with to do lists, post it notes, and outlook flags/reminders (my former method when I only a few non-programming tasks per week) so I’m overwhelmed. All of the other task sites that I’ve used in the past are also project-focused and intended for multi-person teams.

    I’ve always thought office managers were amazing, organized people. Now I’m also wondering how they do it without going insane.

    1. new kid*

      You might check out Asana – it’s been a few years since I’ve used it but when I did it was for similar circumstances to what you’re describing.

    2. Libervermis*

      I love Todoist, but it’s definitely basic in the “to-do list sorted into categories” level. You may or may not need more functions.

  121. Need Advice*

    I just received a job offer at my dream company. I’m still waiting on the written offer (supposed to come in today), but the issue is that my current employer will be closed between Christmas Eve and New Years. This holiday schedule is a new change that we just found out about last week.

    My new company wants me to start the Monday after New Years, which I’m more than happy to do because I’m super excited to get started.

    Between now and when I return to work for the first Thursday and Friday of the year, I plan to be writing out/recording instructions for my successor so things aren’t totally crazy as I leave. My job isn’t so extensive that I should need to return to work in the first week of January to finish anything.

    Is it wrong to put my two weeks notice in but be basically on holiday for almost the entire time? What would you do in this situation? I have a reasonably good relationship with my current manager.

    1. Alianora*

      Honestly, I don’t think vacation time functionally counts towards two weeks notice. I’d be upset if one of my coworkers did that.

      1. Alianora*

        Although that does depend on the job itself. There are other jobs where I wouldn’t care if someone quit with no notice. Just know that no notice is essentially what you’re doing.

    2. Qwerty*

      Generally only working days count towards the notice period. Check your employee handbook for the rule – my last company’s handbooks explicitly said that you had to include 10 working days in your notice period in order to leave in good standing.

      My recommendation would be to work out what your last day would be if you included 10 business days in your notice period. Call the new company and ask if they would be able accommodate that date if your current employer needs you to fulfill your full notice period. Odds are they will understand, especially if you phrase it as “of course I would like start as soon as possible, but it depends on what I’m able to negotiate”

      Then make a list of what you do and put reasonable estimates on what would need to be documented / transitioned. When you give your notice, ask your manager what the best way to handle the winter break is. Shorter notice periods work out best if you sound willing to stay the whole time – more of a “this is how long it will take me to finish my tasks and document my processes. Does it make sense for me to stay on for the whole two weeks or just these number of days?”

    3. Half-Caf Latte*

      I do think you have some grace here because the office is closed for the holiday, and you have plausible deniability that the notification of this new schedule came after you told the new job when you expected to be able to start during your interview process.

      I think you can give notice and say, I just got this offer, and I had offered to start with them on 1/6 before I knew we’d be closed here. Here’s my plan to document and transition my work, does this match your priorities?

  122. CupcakeCounter*

    Last day at my current job!
    And holy hell what a final week! I gave about a month’s notice because I negotiated a later start date with my new job and because there were a few significant items I needed to transfer before I could leave. The final item is completing today and we had an outside person working with us and he was a freaking nightmare! Complained about the weather, about his hotel, our office, our systems, and insulted HIS EMPLOYER AND COWORKERS! Called one of our other companies worthless and a joke. He JUST left and we are calling the organizer to complain about his behavior.

  123. Writer editor*

    Hope it’s ok to ask this here. I’m a communications professional. I’ve decided I no longer want to make an average income. I have a masters degree from a prestigious university. I’ve worked at some impressive companies and I ran a successful freelance business.

    My talent lies in editing and writing. I love working alone and in small teams. Not considering location, I’m wondering how much I can break salary wise if I really tried. I’m pretty ambitious in that regard. I’ll go to bat for myself at work when appropriate. I’ll switch jobs when it makes sense. I’m just really motivated to earn as much as I can.

      1. new kid*

        +1 I think technical writing is where you should look. You can make upwards of 100k in the right market at the right company. You won’t get that out of the gate switching in, but it’s definitely possible down the road.

    2. Buttons*

      One of the highest paid communication positions at my company is the internal comms person who works directly with the CEO for messages that go to the company, taking the CEO’s strategy and translating it into mission statements and making it so that all employees can understand it, speech writing, website content. He works alone, reports directly the CEO.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s hard to say. I’ve found such a wide range of salary in Comms (and MarCom) roles. I also have a master’s in Communication + 20 years in related roles and disciplines, plus project management experience.

      I currently hold an upper-mid-level marcom role and make about $85/year with the bonus at a large multinational company. I fear this is seen as “high” and I might be at risk in a downsizing.

      The higher positions I typically report to (Director or VP) are in the six-figure salary ranges, but not more than $150k. One other thing to note: Marketing roles seem to pay higher than Communication roles. A CMO will be the highest level achievable and I’ve rarely ever seen a CCO (chief Communications officer) position. Mainly all the Comms roles end up reporting into the CMO at some point. My experience has been with public companies.

      I HAVE seen some PR folks pull in extremely high salaries, but this varies widely. I think you’d have to become high-profile, near famous, or have your own business. But PR is a no-go for me as I couldn’t stand the lying, soul sucking aspect of it. Just look at Kellyanne Conway for example. But hey, if money’s your game, a successful PR hotshot can transition to lobbyist.

      I’m job hunting currently but struggling to find comparable salaries. Most similar roles seem to be in the $50-$60k range, which I think is kind of pathetic for the work and what you’re expected to know now in both disciplines of marketing and communications. But you know how it goes… it depends on what companies see as essential.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Oh, I wanted to add that in spite of having a Masters degree in Communication from a great school, it will unfortunately NEVER be as highly regarded as an MBA from a lesser school. Especially for those c-suite marketing roles.

        It’s unfair, but that’s how it is.

        1. Buttons*

          When I started grad school I set out to get my master’s in communications, and I quickly realized it was an overall look at communications, and I was feeling like it wasn’t specific enough. I ended up changing schools and getting my master’s in design and visual communications. I find that with degrees in Communications and Human Resources (and a few others)people know a bit about the big everything in field, but they aren’t an expert in one specific. It then takes more years of someone working in a specific area of those fields to become an expert.
          When I am career counseling anyone now I tell them to pick an area within that field to get their degrees in. I think it really helps people. If someone is interested in HR I advise them to get their undergrad in HR, but their master’s in Comp, HRIS, organizational development, adult learning, MBA, etc.
          Right now, MBA is gold. In the technology company I work for, most newly graduated engineers almost always get a BS in their area of engineering, but have an MBA instead of a master’s in that area of engineering. Which wasn’t the case 10 years ago. It is an interesting turn in expectations.

  124. August*

    Anyone have any experience with submitting writing samples for research positions (specifically legislative research)? I had internships in college that fit perfectly with what the research job I’m applying for wants, but those writing samples are 2 years old now. My more recent writing samples from past jobs are more training manuals, form letters, etc. Which would be better? Or could I clump two samples (1 new, 1 old) into a big pdf file and submit that?

  125. moql*

    I have to wait for Monday for my year end review and I am dreading it! I have definitely been off my game for the past few months and I will deserve every bit of what they tell me but I still do not want to have to listen to them list my failures. Ughggggg.

    1. Buttons*

      It is the entire year, not just the last few months. Take the weekend to write out what went well this year, so that if they focus only on the last few months, you can acknowledge that the last few months didn’t go as well, but in July X was successful, in March I completed Y with Z results. It is bad form, you and them, to only focus on the immediate past. It is the whole year!
      Good luck!

      1. new kid*

        +1 My org calls this the ‘recency effect’ and warns about it in the info they give us for writing our self assessments and for managers conducting the reviews. They should be looking at the whole year, not just the few months that are top of mind.

        Also, even if you feel you didn’t have the best showing this year, try to be kind to yourself. Reading your post to me says that you want to do better, so try to focus on that and you can move forward fresh in the coming year. Good luck!

    2. montescristo1985*

      I have the opposite problem. We don’t do regular reviews, and I’m kind of making my boss do when in January when we get back. He is so chill and relaxed it is hard to get him upset, and I need some bad feedback or I can’t feel that the good is actually legit, if that makes any sense.

  126. Construction Safety*

    So, we gave a temp guy 3 days off for repeatedly being on his phone. He claimed racial discrimination to our client, b/c other, different race, folks were on their phones and they didn’t get 3 days off. FTR, no one is allowed to use phones in the work area. I guess we listened, told him “No other people were on their phones” and sent him home. Big discussions with big-name client followed.
    He comes back on Monday, still claiming discrimination, we contact temp agency, they remove him from site b/c of “personality conflict” with our supt.
    They didn’t involve me, but I asked how it was going. They gave me the sit-rep. I asked, “What did our attorney say”. Cue deer in headlights. Me: “No Labor Attorney?” Them: “Why would we need a labor atty.?”

    Me: pops corn, waits to see.

  127. Floundering*

    I’m just wondering if anyone has dealt with this issue before – I hired someone and it went okay for the first three months (of course!) But its been rough since. Joe doesnt seem to be fitting in well with our other staff. At work events where we sit together, he sits away from us; he doesn’t speak to anyone; he keeps his office door shut and when I spoke to him he told me that the other staff don’t speak to him (I’ve literally witnessed them talking to him) and that we are all cliquey and mean to him. He’s very emotionally exhausting. His work is ok but he isn’t very proactive and I have gotten to the point where I’d rather do it than interact (I know this is bad!!). I talked to the group about being inclusive and I can see people are trying but Joe is being very standoffish. Some people are so uncomfortable they don’t even want to talk to him! He seems just as miserable and is not interested in our work (he used to do something else which gave him skills we thought would help us but they havent; he has been attending trainings about that old work and actually skipped a current job event to do so) so I hope he is looking but how do I deal with this in the mean time? One of my peers thinks I should flat out ask him if he has any interest in what we do (it doesn’t seem he does) but I worry that will not end well.

    1. fposte*

      I might separate the “Joe doesn’t like people here” from the performance issues; it seems like you’re treating that as a proxy for his lackluster performance, but it isn’t. It’s okay for him to be standoffish and to keep his door shut as long as the work gets done to standard. It’s just that the work isn’t getting done to standard. I don’t see the point of asking him if he’s interested in the work unless you’re tying it to an action plan–otherwise it’s just more about Joe’s social fit. (I’m not clear what “emotionally exhausting” means–sometimes that’s a specific behavior you can address, though.)

      I think you really have to consider managing him out, because I don’t think he’s going to become the employee you want any more than your job is going to become the one that he wants. What I would do is talk to him about his performance and about his focus on skills you’re not using, and at that point I think you could say “My impression is that our department’s work isn’t really where your heart lies. And that’s okay, it’s not for everybody. We can support you for eight weeks of transition if you want to find a position that’s better suited to you. However, if you’re looking to stay in this position I need you to 1) meet x and y deliverables on time without being reminded and b) focus your trainings on departmentally relevant skills. Can you do that?”

      1. floundering*

        Thanks for your thoughts! I use emotional exhausting here as he is someone who is very emotional and saps a lot of your energy. Interacting with Joe is hard because everything is about how everyone treats him poorly or ignores him when that isn’t true and trying to encourage him to look at his own behavior in those interactions is exhausting. He also has a lot of ideas about how we should do things (or not do things) and occasionally his ideas are good, but often they’re based in a misunderstanding of how a process even works and when the process is explained to him he complains that we didn’t teach it to him. There is little insight and his professionalism isn’t the level we expect around here. If he were a super star employee, I’d be willing to put up with other stuff but he’s pretty average and he isn’t the only one I manage. I oversee two departments so I’m tired that I have someone pulling so much of my bandwidth.

        I definitely want to manage him out so I like your wording on that. I do plan to meet with him soon. It’s awkward with the holidays – part of me just wants to have that conversation but the other part says to be sensitive and wait. My other concern is with my boss and/or company. If he decided he wanted to stay and continued being an average employee, I don’t know that I’d be able to really force him to move on. Although for someone who seems as miserable as him, I can’t imagine he isn’t trying!

        1. valentine*

          You don’t have to be Joe’s audience for any of it. I think the letter about the guy in media who was terrible at fact-checking and talked too much would help you.

    2. J*

      “One of my peers thinks I should flat out ask him if he has any interest in what we do (it doesn’t seem he does) but I worry that will not end well.”

      It’s already on the path to ‘not ending well.’ If you try to talk to him, it might cause problems… But if you don’t talk to him it will DEFINITELY cause problems. Doing nothing won’t cause the situation to improve.

      As fposte mentioned, try to separate the interpersonal problems from the actual work problems. Behaviors like sitting alone and not talking might be okay, but only so long as they don’t interfere with his actual work. You’ve already written that you and other workers don’t want to interact with Joe and would prefer to take on more work than task Joe to do his job. You’ve already said Joe is skipping work to go do unrelated training. These are real problems that need to be addressed.

      I’d also urge you consider the alternative. Read AAM for any amount of time and you’ll start spotting a pattern: One employee introduces toxic behaviors, then other employees get sick of dealing with him and the extra work he creates, and eventually the highest performers start looking for other opportunities. Do you want to wait until things get to that point?

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I think you have to keep the work quality separate from his “social” levels.

      But that being said, it does sound like this may simply be a poor fit/alignment with what the team needed from a skills standpoint. Either he’s not as interested as he thought he’d be in the work duties or his ability to do the work, or there really is such a huge mismatch in personalities, such as an introvert being forced into a highly extroverted role, that he’s uncomfortable and unhappy.

      And sometimes it does take more than 3 months for this to surface! Depending on the work, it may take 3 months to learn the job, but you still can’t tell you actually like the job.

      I think you need to have this hard discussion sooner rather than later. You’ll both be relieved, and hopefully you can make a plan to transfer him to something he likes better, or manage him out in a certain timeframe if he can agree to continue producing work until that happens.

  128. The Office Cat Chronicles*

    This week was a mixed bag.
    It’s been cold and rainy, so I’ve spent a lot of time under the trailer. The humans allow me into their office during the day, but not every day; some days they only come in for a little while to give me gooshyfood, the one with the dark face fur brings smaller humans with him when he does that. The one with no face fur usually stays for a while, he’s my favorite.
    One day there was an emergency, my crunchies bowl was empty! Here’s a picture the one with the light face fur posted, https://www.instagram.com/p/B580TAeHSYz/ . How am I supposed to cope with that stress? So I yelled at him while he was eating until he brought me more crunchies – salvation!
    Then another day there were many humans, more than a pawful of them, making lots of noise; banging and sawing and red boxes making noises like screeching prey. I hid all day.
    Today I’m warm and content, allowing the no face fur one to have me in his window or on his lap. But he won’t let me lay on the warm cat bed that he pokes his paws at all day even though that’s the best place for him to admire me.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Talk him into getting a decoy warming bed. My coworker does that for his foster kittens so he can actually get some work done. Decoy keyboard deployment was a success.

  129. very anonymous for this*

    Staying super anonymous for this question for obvious reasons.

    My partner owns a group of companies in which my specialized skill set, let’s say llama wrangling, is currently lacking. I have an advanced degree in llama wrangling and have been informally consulting for a few of the companies for about a year; everyone in senior leadership at the companies knows we are together and no one seems to have an issue with it; generally, they respect my skill set and are really happy with the results I’ve been able to achieve with their llama wrangling programs. We also make very sure to stay in ‘work mode’ when we are working, when we are in meetings with his staff, etc.

    Our relationship is now at the point where we are looking at making permanent commitments, and he has asked me to consider coming on board more formally. We work extremely well together and I am planning to do this.

    However, we both know that this is a really fraught area, not for us but potentially for his employees (and potentially legally?). We look at things like the McDonalds CEO being forced to resign because of a relationship with an employee and we worry. He is the sole owner of all of the companies, so in theory he can do what he wants, but we are trying to figure out what the best practice is here. Do I come on board as a consultant, with the group as a client? (I have my own corporation.) If I become an employee of the umbrella corp, do I report to him? If I report to someone other than him, what happens if they don’t like me or are unhappy? How do we/I navigate the context of being his partner but also wanting to succeed – or not – on my own merits? I’m not worried about my ability to do the job. But I do want to make sure everything is aboveboard, as does he.

    If anyone has had experience with this sort of thing, I’d love to hear from you.

    1. blink14*

      My suggestion would be to come on as a consultant. My parents own two small businesses and have done something very similar to this – the businesses are in the same industry, with one business being production and the other being sales. They actually met through the industry, and both were already in the production and sales tracts. One parent owns the production business and the other owns the sales business. The sales business negotiates with all of the customers for the production business and looks for new customers on behalf of the production business. They’ve been doing this for about 30 years and have never had any major problems – it may help that they have different last names, but all of their clients come to learn they are married and none have ever made an issue about it.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t have experience with this. As an employee, I would be much less likely to side-eye the situation if you were a consultant *and* you did good work. I would side-eye the situation if you were an employee, regardless of how well you performed.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Well, in some ways this is easier given the relationship began before and he owns the companies rather than them being public.

      I’d tend to say you should keep your company separate and continue to consult. Unless you decide you want to become co-owner?

      But whatever you do, if you marry, you will need quite a bit of legal advice! This is a complicated situation financially, and possibly for NDA and IP considerations as well.

  130. Eleanor Knope*

    No question here, just a vent.

    I had a miscarriage two weeks ago, and on Monday I was pulled into a meeting with our CEO who told me he wants to announce new parental leave (which, yay! It’s about time). But in the process, he asked me many questions about what I’ve heard from other employees about our current policy and what I thought of the new one, and it took all I had not to cry in front of him. As the only internal comms person, I’ve spent all week working on talking points, announcing it internally, finding photos for the articles… Just bad timing for me. It’s been rough.

    1. new kid*

      I’m so sorry for your loss and that work is compounding it unknowingly. I hope you can take some time soon to rest and heal away from that environment.

    2. Turtlewings*

      Oh, man. What a shame that what should have been an innocuous conversation hit at such a bad time. I’m so sorry for your loss.

  131. blink14*

    Congratulations! Can you push back the start date with the new company? Given that Christmas and New Years fall mid week this year, a lot of companies will be closed for 2-4 days over the next 10 business days as it is.

    If you can’t push back the deadline, give your notice as soon as possible (but wait until you have that offer letter!). You just learned of the closing between Christmas Eve and New Years, so you could use that to your advantage when giving notice – you had hoped to have more time to prepare, but were unaware of the schedule change until it was announced.

    Ultimately, unless you have some kind of binding contract, you aren’t required to give two weeks, its done as a formality. I think if you do your best to leave documentation and wrap up projects in the short time you have left with the office open, you’ll likely leave on good terms. Remember that you’ll probably want to use your current manager and employer as future references, so do what you can to maintain a positive exit. But this is also your dream company, so don’t lose sight of that – your current employer will figure out how to handle things when you leave.

  132. Pineapple*

    Well shoot, was not expecting to see this so early!

    So this happened this week and I wonder if I’m right to be annoyed by this as much as I am.

    I’m a manager in a dept that is led by 2 sr managers and us 3 managers and we have remote staff to manage. 

    We had new staff begin this week. My coworker and I developed the training manual and shared it with the other managers. Each mgr is responsible for training their own staff member. On day 2 of the training, I had a meeting with my remote and the staff member for the other team was in the meeting as well.  Pretty much the remaining training sessions included both of them. 

    I went to talk to her manager and she said. “I had no idea. I don’t know who that is, I wasn’t here last week.” I told her OK but the new hires were announced in our weekly meeting earlier this week and you were there for that. She just said “no I wasn’t there.” (SHE WAS THERE!) She just kept playing it off as if she had no idea what was going on because she wasn’t there. 

    tbh I was kind of shocked so I didn’t say anything and walked away. She later came up to me and said  “okay so you’ll take care of her?” while I was in the middle of presenting (!) to the new team.  

    I told my direct manager about this and doesn’t like it, but he really wants her DM (the 2nd sr mgr) to do his job and actually manage her. And..DM2 did step in and basically fobbed it off on us. He said “oh I talked to her and she doesn’t understand why MOAS didn’t set up the meeting links for her team as well.” 

    My DM was LIVID about this. He was like “that’s not her fking job!” (not literally but that sentiment). This is the 3rd batch of new hires we’ve had, so that process hasn’t changed, each manager is responsible for setting up their own team. 

    This manager has taken so many days off, which is normally NOMB but now that I and others are left picking up the slack. My DM is frustrated by it too now but her DM won’t do anything–he just deflects it back to us. I had to train her new staff before as well, the person didnt’ show up for half the day and I told him we’d have to postpone it for another day because the time had passed…then her DM had msgd me saying “why can’t you drop everything and train him right now?” Whenever they need help it’s “we’re all 1 team, gotta be a team player” and all…when WE need help it’s “we’re too busy/you guys are a sh*tshow and can’t manage well.”

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Well, I don’t know how annoyed you are, so…

      Okay, joking aside, yes, that’s poor behavior on the part of DM2 and SlackerManager. It also sounds like it’s your DM’s job to handle; probably by escalating up the chain, first to their own and DM2’s supervisor. Not clear from your post if DM has already done so. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how much more you can do, other than provide DM with evidence of how much SlackerManager’s slacking is causing your team and the company as a whole.

  133. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

    Layoffs at my job this week. The week before Christmas. Even my boss looked shaken. All four employees had been with the company for decades and were solid performers and too young for retirement. The HR person who supervised the first employee packing up her things, actually followed her to the bathroom. Why? To make sure she didn’t escape?? wtf. You treat employees like criminals, you will end up with the employees you deserve.

    Not asking a question… just venting. Why couldn’t they wait till after the holidays? Do you get a bonus tax credit for canning people when there’s a Christmas tree present? OK yeah I realize those sounded like questions, but… just venting. really.

    And then this morning I read an email from my great-grandboss saying what a great quarter we had. Hypocrite.

    1. new kid*

      Ugh, that’s rough. I’m so sorry for your colleagues and for those of you left too. Even when it’s not you on the chopping block it’s still tough to experience and it can really change the atmosphere.

      You’ve definitely learned something valuable about your employer though. Maybe something to think on for your own career plans in the coming year.

      1. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

        Absolutely. At this company, you rarely see HR people until your last day, unless you happen to catch a glimpse of them on their way from one place to another. They avoid the other humans as much as possible. (When we have questions for HR, we call a hotline to talk to people in faraway lands who read to us from a script.)

        I know layoffs are inevitable in most places – business is business – but there are better ways and worse ways to go about it. This was one of the worst. (I omitted some details for brevity’s sake.) Reading that “great quarter” email this morning clinched it. I am grateful to have this excellent website and community to help me stick my toe into the job-hunting water.

        I should mention – I’m on PTO right now. I’m not 100% sure I won’t get a pink slip myself on January 2.

    2. Turtlewings*

      If you makes you feel any better about it, there’s an argument to be made that it’s better to lay people off shortly before Christmas than right after. This way the victims of the layoff definitely don’t have to work the holiday, get a little bit of time to recombobulate with their families, and get a heads-up to rein in their holiday spending before it’s too late. This week seems a little late for that last point, but still, maybe that’s what your bosses were going for, at least? (It still sucks.)

      1. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

        Nah, we get pretty good PTO, and in fact the whole place will be shut down next week, so everyone gets the time off. I can also tell you that this company couldn’t care less about people spending time with their families or overspending for the holidays. There’s most likely a financial advantage to getting rid of them before rather than after the new year, because financial advantage is their biggest and most blatant motivator.

  134. Sad academia anon*

    Academia vent thread? I’m in my (hopefully) last year of a science PhD and am so burnt out. I keep being sent on wild goose chase after wild goose chase which has not resulted in any publications (the lab has not published in several years and nobody seems that concerned…?) I’m just frustrated, sad, and done.

    My school also does this neat [sc] thing where they keep toxic, abusive people around as long as they can get grant dollars, and the dean gives boilerplate answers to absolutely everything. I can’t get out of here fast though. (But luckily our career dev person is wonderful and I’m taking advantage of all that I can there to land a good job once I leave!)

    1. Anonsy*

      Oh god, do you work at my institution? It sounds like my institution.

      I actually quit my PhD (multiple years in) because of exactly the reasons you described, now work on the staff side of things in a separate academic department. Spoiler alert: it’s just as toxic on the other side. Just reaffirming my hate for academia.

  135. anonnnymmmous*

    How do you ever negotiate your position when A) your position and pay seem unrelated, B) they both change at random management-set times? I’ve been moved around to different work a couple times already. The first came with an explicitly for-new-responsibilities raise, the second one did not. I am now being moved to something else, and apparently I’m getting a small raise on a certain calendar day (not tied to when I’m starting the new duties). It’s all been very “this is what you will do now”. AAM says not to accept promotions without discussing pay, but it’s kind of not a promotion? Or I’m not sure it is? I haven’t been here very long, so it would be normal for me to not have a raise in this time. But I’m a little stressed at the idea that my pay is arbitrary and not tied to my duties while my duties can change entirely at any time.

    1. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      It sounds like you at least need to have a talk with your supervisor or HR to nail down what the heck your position is even called, and were those moves promotions or laterals or ??. Once you’ve nailed that down, it should be easier to build a case for being paid/promoted properly.

      1. anonnnymmmous*

        Nailing it down is likely to be a struggle. I don’t even know how much I can push back when I’m just Informed of things? For the most recent move I’ve been mostly saying things like “Okay, I look forward to learning more” and I asked for a more formal description of what the move will be when we get there, and beyond that I’ve been just focusing on what I’m doing currently and going with the “it’s not a real move until we actually talk about it” mindset.

        But now the replacement for my current duties has been hired, a calendar-based raise has been announced, a spreadsheet for keeping me and other-person-doing-New-Thing updated has been sent out to everyone, and in a recent boss meeting she mentioned that soon I’ll be meeting with the other person do figure out how we’re splitting things up. So while I’ve been thinking “it’s not really happening until we have a conversation about it”, it looks like the other side of it has been “this is a done thing and we are going forward with setting everything up for it”.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re talking about transferring to different departments and roles within the same company?

      1. anonnnymmmous*

        Same department I guess (it’s a small company and I think it’s technically one department that I’m in), but different….category? Of the thing the department produces? And yes, same company.

  136. Leisel*

    No question here – just want to vent!

    I work for a small construction company wearing many hats, one of which is acting as the company’s draftsperson who does shop drawings and the like. When I was in college I learned how to do architectural renderings (where you color a drawing of a building or landscape to help a client visualize it). That’s not a skill I get to use much in this position.

    I’ve had some down time lately (end of year is slow in the office) so I brought in some art supplies from home and drew the exterior of our office building. Then I embellished a version of the building with Christmas wreaths on the doors and snow falling (we’re in Texas, there’s very rarely snow!). I scanned it and put it into Illustrator and added “Happy Holidays!” and our logo. No one asked me to do this, I just thought it would be fun.

    My boss loved it! He told me to use it for our annual holiday card so I sent it out to be printed. Then he drug his feet to give me a list of card recipients. I’ve asked him about several times over this month and I just got a list YESTERDAY! Agh! I’ll send them all out today, but I feel like a lot of people won’t be in the offices on Monday the 23rd.

    It was still fun for me to get to do something artistic, even if it will just get lost in the shuffle, but I’m disappointed with my boss. He always thinks he has more time than he really does, it’s an on-going thing.

    Anyway, Happy Holidays, everyone! Wish you all the best!

  137. AndersonDarling*

    Is it just my area, or is PTO awful at all health systems? I was given 3 weeks of PTO, but holidays come out of the PTO bucket. I’m mid to senior career and I used to get 4 weeks of straight up PTO + company holidays. I’ve been working for 8 months, taken no vacation/sick days, and only have 40 hours of PTO because all the holidays ate up my PTO.
    The 3 weeks of “all inclusive” PTO is standard at all the health systems in my area and it is non-negotiable. I did not think this through well enough when I accepted the job.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve worked for two. The first one did 2 weeks vacation (to start, increasing one day per year), 12 days sick time (no increase), and 9 holidays, I think. The current one, I have 33 days PTO (at five years, started with 28), including all vacation, sick and 6 official holidays.

      I personally prefer the current all-inclusive system, but I also work from home on a totally flexible schedule, never get sick enough to call off and don’t do anything for most holidays, so I can work on the Fourth of July or Memorial Day or whatever and save that day’s PTO for an actual vacation day.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Rereading, it does sound like your system screws you over on the amount of PTO though. Sorry, three weeks didn’t sound as bad until I realized that it’s less than half of what I get, because I’m used to thinking of mine in days. That blows :( does it go up with tenure?

        1. AndersonDarling*

          It does go up, one PTO day per year. I’m considering leaving to get better PTO and benefits. I’d rather jump now than later. I’ve also realized that my health insurance isn’t very good either (how can a healthcare system have such bad insurance?).

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Boo! Mine have both had good insurance options – I pay less than $20/month for mine currently, and while it is a high deductible plan that’s also all I need and they also give me $800/year in HSA funds.

    2. NewNameTemporarily*

      Health system, and our PTO days are good. I’ve been here a while, but like red reader, I get a separate bucket of holidays (9), plus 4 float days, plus the combined PTO/sick leave bucket. And, if I work even part of a day, I get paid for the full day.

      So no, our holidays do not get taken out of our PTO time. They are in addition to it. (And we are a very big provider).

      Note, though, that I’m paid well under market because we are a non-profit.

  138. Eric*

    I feel like a bad guy for saying this, but don’t repeatedly send strangers LinkedIn DMs asking for an informational interview, or to get your resume put in at their company.

    I’m a senior software engineer at a pretty big tech company. Not FAANG, but it’s a publicly traded international company with several thousand tech staff. I got 8 messages this week from people I’ve never met, either asking if we can get coffee so they can ask me questions, or people with 1-2 years of experience asking if I can refer them or get their rejection reversed (we’re only hiring more senior SWEs).

    I sent them all “Sorry, but I don’t have any time. Best of luck and happy holidays” replies. Out of those, five of them didn’t get the hint and asked if I can do next week, some evening or weekend, or a phone call. I get the whole hustle thing, but it’s insanely demanding of a total stranger.

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Question: How did you get your job and where you are today?

      Put in your LinkedIn profile that you won’t accept DMs about recruiting questions and you don’t host informational interviews, but what you can do is…This and That. Also, what’s the point on being on LI if you’re only going to engage with the ‘right people of your preference’ when LI is about networking and getting professional help?

      And you do have time – time to send them a ‘Don’t bother me’ response. So instead how about writing a helpful response that sends them in the right direction. It will sound canned but it may reduce the inquiries. If anything, just don’t respond. But how does that make you feel? Seems like the nominal response you give is an indicator you want to do something but you don’t know what that is.

      1. Write a LinkedIn article with all the questions you receive and helpful advice. Add it to your profile and send it to inquiries. Maybe do this on a monthly basis. You might even learn something about how your industry has changed, is changing or how it’s doing with recruitment. Partner with your HR and see if you can put something together for your website about how to get into the industry.

      2. Format a copy/paste answer to all the questions that you’re typically asked. Start with, “This is a form response. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to read every DM I receive as I have 50 staff I need to take care of. However, here’s my response/advice for the questions I’m usually asked… ” End with, “Please don’t respond to this email even with a ‘thanks’ (it’s implied). This is the best response I can give you. Best of luck.”

      If you see their name pop back up in your DMs, ignore it. Delete it. You did what you could and educated in the meantime.

      No one is above helping others. Boundaries are great but use them to be a helpful professional to those struggling to get into the industry that you worked hard to tackle and succeed in. You don’t know that your (even canned) response could help them move forward an inch or miles.

      1. Eric*

        Question: How did you get your job and where you are today?

        Not by pinging strangers at a company that rejected my application and asking them if they have any power to reverse it.

        While I get what you are saying, it’s been my experience that if you give that type of person an inch (i.e. they hear anything but a firm “no” as an invitation to just push more) they take a mile. I’ve tried pointing people at books, videos and online courses that I’ve found useful, and they usually come back to me with more questions even after I say that’s all the help I can give. It’s also awfully presumptuous and rude if I say I don’t have time (I really, truly don’t, I take care of my elderly parents, am engaged, and have other professional commitments aside my day job), for them to suggest that I give my number or take an hour out of my weekend.

        I think I should actually just limit my LinkedIn network to people I actually have relationships with and add a line to my LinkedIn bio stating that I don’t accept connection invites from people I haven’t met offline—sorry!

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Interesting. In a more niche area, I would agree with you. With something sprawling like tech (especially software engineering), these attempts read as much more disingenuous attempts to get an “in” (especially the folks who are asking a complete stranger to help them reverse a rejection).

        For those who just want to “ask a few questions”, there is a wealth of information available and likely networking events specifically for this type of thing. So, I don’t think OP has an obligation to add to those resources or to help these folks who don’t seem like they’re doing the basic legwork. I’m not in tech or software development, yet I’m confident I could easily figure out how to start in the field.

        1. Eric*

          That’s right. I usually get asked something like “I’d like to pick your brain over coffee, to understand how you got where you are” in these cold messages. If it starts at “hey, I really want to work at your company, and I (less than 2 years of experience) put my resume for your opening (JD states 7 or more years experience) and never heard back, can you talk to HR/the hiring manager?” and I say no, it goes back to “I’d like to pick your brain.”

          That’s so generic and open-ended as to be a waste of time for both of us: what can I say aside “I’ve been in this industry for a decade, and I work hard, try not to make enemies, and network?” That’s not worth an hour out of either of our days.

          In the past, I’ve tried to mentor people informally a little by giving them a “reading list” with useful books, tutorials, lectures, online courses, and websites for interview prep (Learn Python The Hard Way is my #1 recommendation, btw), which does end with a “I’m not a teacher, this is all I can give you, good luck.” It never ends there; there’s always more questions, and honestly most of them are the type of things that are answered in the book or a little bit of Google/Reddit searching. And if I don’t answer, they are unhappy and I’m the bad guy.

      3. EventPlannerGal*

        “And you do have time”

        I think it’s quite rude to just flatly contradict what someone has just said about their own life. Having the time to write a one-sentence DM response is not the same thing as having the time to write personalised responses to each DM, write a monthly digest of job-hunting tips, host the frequent informational interviews that are being requested or create a career advice section on the company website. IMO all this will do is set Eric up as someone who it’s okay to bother with job-hunting questions when he might not even be the best person to ask.

    2. Stripes*

      Oooh. I was getting these from people wanting to apply to the graduate program I’m in and some of them just have NO tact. My latest contact wanted me to give him a list of every lab in the US that worked on his topic of interest (which was in no way related to anything I do) and I eventually had to just ghost him after he became rude.

      I think your “sorry I don’t have time” response is fine, but blocking anyone that is too demanding is not uncalled for.

  139. A. Ham*

    Our e-mail signatures are standardized and controlled by IT, and our diversity and inclusion team has been making a big push to add a space for pronouns, and it seems like it is finally coming to fruition. It is not yet widely known in the whole company, but it has been discussed in smaller committee meetings- that’s how I know- and the space has now been added by IT. It is optional but encouraged. I am 150% in support of this idea, think it is important, and am proud that we will be the first in our industry, in our area, to implement such a thing. However, for reasons that are totally unrelated to the larger sentiment behind it, I do not wish to do so myself. I think my reasons are probably pretty petty and selfish, and I certainly don’t want to come across as unsupportive, but I am still struggling with it.
    I am a cis woman with a first name that, while not totally uncommon as a female name, is more often seen as a male name. I have a job in which I often am in contact via e-mail with people outside the company that I have never met. Some I only communicate with a few times and then never again, and some I have a longer relationship with. I have learned over time that I get treated better if people think I might be a man. This isn’t just conjecture- I have had multiple opportunities to test it-particularly when someone has to call with something urgent and “finds out”. To be blunt, my job is easier and more productive if people don’t know I’m a woman [insert eye roll here].
    Ultimately, I think I am extra sensitive after years of dealing with this nonsense, and at the end of the day, when people DO know I am female, the differences are subtle, on most occasions -only a handful of instances in my memory of a huge marked difference and blatant sexism. And even that is not even close to the terrible discrimination that others face. So, perhaps it’s really a small price to pay, in exchange for showing my support.
    So, why am I still torn about this?

    1. LQ*

      I think that requiring pronouns is harmful. Creating space for them and having people be on board and doing them is great. For slightly different reasons, I don’t want to include mine. I’m fine if people make assumptions. But I get to decide that I don’t want to put my decision about that out there.

      I try to be pretty openly supportive in a lot of ways. This one crosses a personal line for me.

      If someone’s not out yet, isn’t ready, isn’t comfortable, forcing them isn’t ok. You’re essentially forcing folks to decide to out themselves or lie. That’s not ok. People should get to decide if they want to put pronouns on. That said I strongly encourage people to add them if they are comfortable with doing so.

  140. Toxic Waste*

    Is there any secret to getting along with the boss’s admin? Any secret to winning them over, if they’re not particularly fond of you?

    1. Alianora*

      Admins are just regular people. It really depends on their personality.

      I would say for me (admin to the director of my organization), be efficient, good at your job, and communicate clearly. If we can have a good conversation that’s a plus, but it’s not necessary.

    2. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      If they think you’re sucking up to them, they probably won’t like you. If they think you’re sucking up to them to get you an advantage with your boss, they’ll like you even less. Treating them differently will be a big neon sign that you’re sucking up.

      Sometimes the best way to get along with someone is to leave them alone, especially if they’re not particularly fond of you.

    3. montescristo1985*

      Honestly, the advice that Joan gives Peggy about the phone operators in the first episode of Mad Men is very useful for getting along with admins (or really anyone you work with). Basically, they are the nerve center, never provoke them, and always approach as a supplicant. :)

      1. J*

        Yep. You get soooo much farther asking, “Can you please help me with this?” rather than saying, “This needs to get done by four-thirty.”

    4. J*

      The weird part about trying to convince someone you like you is that it is practically impossible to use a ‘technique’ or ‘secret’ to do it. There is no ‘one weird trick’ that the internet doesn’t want you to know about.
      The only things you can do are: (1) Be polite and kind during your interactions. (2) Treat them with respect. (3) Admit to your vulnerabilities, such as when you are bad at something or don’t know an answer. (4) Be genuine. Don’t be afraid of admitting when you like or dislike something, don’t be ashamed of your hobbies and interests, and don’t try to tailor yourself to present a certain ‘image.’

  141. Its5oclocksomewhere*

    I’ve been at my job for 8 months and only took a half day because I was sick. I want to take 1 day off for the holidays and my boss was like, “If we have coverage, you can take it off.”

    Um, okay. The new person who just started 2 months ago is taking a week off! They don’t even have the hours! No, nothing was pre-arranged in their interview either!!! Wtf?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m not sure if you just wanted to rant or are looking for suggestions. If the latter:

      -Have you asked your boss about it?
      -Is the new person in the same role as you in a different type of role?
      -How do you know the time off wasn’t pre-arranged in NewColleague’s hiring? Not having that pre-arranged would be a bit unusual.

  142. Hannah*

    Hi all! Long time lurker looking for a little advice. I work in a project team of 3 people – myself, Jane and Greg. I am somewhat the senior member of the team.

    Greg often produces great work and I am very complimentary of him. Jane doesn’t tend to do much at all but the other day she did produce a product and I complimented her (it was good!). She turned to me with literal tears in her eyes and said how thrilled she was to get a compliment because I never compliment her.

    I’m just not sure what to do with that. Part of me wants to be aware and look harder for ways I can compliment her. Part of me says it’s a natural consequence to her own actions. It has been months since she has actually done anything more than attend meetings and have conversations and that does mean Greg and I have to pull more of the team’s weight.

    Do you all have any feedback for me? Am I being too harsh? I’m not really a formal supervisor so I can’t frame this as a performance issue.

    1. new kid*

      I mean, generally speaking I think it can be good to be aware of how you come across to folks on things like that. I know I struggle with giving praise for what I consider to be someone ‘just doing their job’ so whenever I’m in a position to oversee someone’s work I try to adjust accordingly.

      That said, her reaction seems wildly emotional given the context. You’re not her affection withholding parent or something, jeez.

    2. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      By any chance, does Greg produce more because he has more opportunities? Is Jane’s role more of a support role such that she doesn’t get to spend as much time working on things that she can finish?

      I spend a lot of my time putting out fires, cleaning up messes, etc. which means that I don’t get to finish things as often. It doesn’t mean I work less, but it does mean my boss doesn’t have as much occasion to compliment me.

      If that’s not the case with Jane, is it possible that Greg is grabbing stuff before she can get to it? Or is it possible that Jane is just not very good at finding opportunities? Does she need more leadership to understand what she has to do in order to get more compliments?

      Of course, it’s also possible that Jane just isn’t very good. But maybe you’d be doing her a favor to tell her what you see.

      1. Hannah*

        That’s an interesting perspective! But it’s actually the opposite. Jane will get an assignment and then turn it over to Greg because “he is better at that sort of thing” or “I’m busy with this meeting today”.

        It may just be a general approach to work – Jane wants to do conversations and relationship building while Greg wants to produce. Which means I lean towards Greg because I tend to want to produce too.

        1. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

          Hmm… maybe there is an opportunity here for you and Jane. Or another department where her skills would be more appreciated? The stuff she does is the stuff I can’t stand to do. There are jobs that are made entirely out of that stuff.

          It does sound, though, like she needs to understand why she doesn’t get compliments. When CAN you compliment her, if she passes stuff off to Greg? “Hey, nice job not doing that thing you were asked to do!”

    3. J*

      I don’t see a problem.
      Based on this information alone, I don’t see why you should change your approach. I’ve never seen someone have this sort of reaction to a compliment, so I wonder if she isn’t somehow unusually desperate for validation. But as you observed, maybe the reason she doesn’t get compliments is that she doesn’t do good work. Just keep doing what you are doing. Give her praise when she does good things, and hopefully it will sink in that she needs to work for the praise.
      Looking for reasons to compliment her might be nice, but I don’t think it is a good idea to go overboard with this. If you start giving her compliments that she doesn’t really deserve, then that will teach her that mediocre performance is ‘good enough’ to get the reward she wants.

      1. Hannah*

        This was my first thought too!

        “Give her praise when she does good things, and hopefully it will sink in that she needs to work for the praise.”

        I don’t have a lot of authority here so if she is stuck on my praise for whatever reason, maybe I can use that? But that does seem a sort of manipulative way for me to behave.

        1. blaise zamboni*

          I don’t think that’s manipulative, that’s just setting expectations for her.

          If/when she produces things, even if it’s not quite at Greg’s level, I would make an effort to compliment her because that’s obviously a high-value thing for her. I would not make an effort to compliment her for other stuff, though, unless it’s explicitly part of her job that she’s doing at least reasonably well.

          Can you bring this up to your boss? You don’t have the authority to talk to Jane about her performance but your boss does, and she should. My boss recently implemented productivity metrics and individual work plans for our team, because I’m a high performer and my only other teammate is a lot like Jane. My boss wanted objective data showing the difference between our work outputs, so she can take it to her own boss. You probably aren’t able to implement that for your team, but you can explain the situation to your boss and suggest metrics to show what your team is producing, who’s handling what, etc.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This really doesn’t seem like emotional labor you have any obligation to take on. If you were her manager or in her line of reporting, I would have a different take.

  143. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Low-stakes question here, but I’m curious:
    Can someone who works in the medical/health industry please explain that industry’s obsession with fax machines? It’s 2019, almost 2020, and the only way for my wife to send an important medical document was to fax it. Her office doesn’t have a fax machine anymore, my father’s business stopped faxing about a decade ago (and my father is about as big a Luddite as they come), we don’t have one at home, nobody we *know* has one, and my library has exactly one fax machine that dates to about 1988. I just spent nearly 30 minutes wrestling with it and getting the fax to go through.

    Is there some advantage to a fax machine that’s not obvious to us non-health people? In general, I would absolutely *love* a trip back in time to the 1980s, but faxing is something that should have gone out of style with leg warmers and the Men Without Hats.

    1. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      You wrestle with it because you’re not used to it, but you’d be quicker at it if it were part of your full-time job.

      When you need forms or things with signatures, it’s damned handy to be able to grab the printed form with signature right off the machine, rather than open an email, open the attachment, and print it. (I know it’s just a few clicks, but when you consider the number of these things that the insurance people handle, any step you can eliminate is worth its virtual weight in bitcoin.)

      Besides, there are other businesses besides health that like faxes. Mostly travel and roofing scams, as far as I can tell. Those people never give up.

    2. Chronic Overthinker*

      Faxing is a relatively cheaper way to get information from point A to point B without having to pay postage or give out a confidential email address. You should see if you have a local Fed Ex Office/Staples/Office Max or Depot et cetera in your area as they provide faxing services.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        It’s also easier to deal with when you have clients who aren’t very tech-savvy.

        I do a lot of document inprocessing as part of my job — all electronic, received as email attachments or direct uploads — and BOY am I exhausted with the number of blurry phone camera pictures, Microsoft Word documents with a screenshot of a picture that’s been compressed to uselessness, or multi-page forms with each page attached as a separate .jpeg file that needs to be individually converted to pdf and then condensed into a single document.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I tried and the fax feature didn’t work.

        I realize I kind of miswrote my post above. I was able to work the machine fine. The problem was that the number I was told to fax to wasn’t accepting faxes, and then we had to call for *another* number that actually *did* work… and this has been my experience, basically, every single time I’ve tried to fax something in my life.

      2. A Non E. Mouse*

        Not in the medical field, but doesn’t your copier/scanner (at work) also fax documents?

        Oh I know this one!

        We have identical printers across our organization (50+) and only *some* have the added-on fax card, so only some will fax. I have these machines clearly marked as fax-capable.

        So I guess the take away is that even the large all-in-ones have to be enabled, and have a phone line ran to them, to fax.

        And similar to The Librarian, of the machines that do fax, when someone goes to fax and has issues, we find it’s almost never the machine itself – it’s a bad number, or the number is busy and the machine timed out trying, or it said it send but the other end at it and they have to send it again….

    4. Natalie*

      The short answer is that the security and encryption requirements for electronic communication are more onerous for medical providers. Regular email isn’t considered HIPAA compliant, they have to use an encrypted system. Big clinic systems have contracted with EHR (electronic health record) companies, but as private, proprietary firms those companies aren’t under any obligation to communicate with each other.

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          Also, thank you for sharing that Vox article. That totally answered my question and was both interesting and super depressing.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Bingo.

        Also, lots of smaller providers issue paper orders that the patient can take to their (for example) physical therapist of choice, only the patients then lose the orders. “Well, Dr Jones gave me an order for physical therapy, but my dog ate it.” Or Dr Jones, bless them, didn’t fill out the damn order form with all the info we need to be able to bill for it. Our physical therapists, in many situations, don’t get paid if they don’t have a physician’s signature and appropriate information authorizing the treatment as medically necessary, so we gotta get it somehow.

        1. Natalie*

          Yep, those EHRs that include encrypted messaging are EXPENSIVE, and way out of the budget of a solo practitioner or small practice. Even at my organization, operating a clinic network over 5 states, Epic (one of the biggest) is way overpowered for us.

          You’d think there’d be more of a market for stripped down budget versions of these software packages. Maybe they exist but small practices still find them too pricey.

    5. !*

      Yeah, I agree with this because even our HR dept still receives faxes and while their fax machine is in a kind of secure location, employee documents can have SS#s and other sensitive information which would be better off being emailed directly to someone. Of course we also have technophobes who refuse (and their managers support their refusal) to scan and email a hard copy document. I hate that we still have to support fax functionality at all in my company.

    6. Fikly*

      I cannot comment on truth, but generally speaking, it’s considered more secure for confidential health information than email. And secure ways to transfer information electronically are more expensive than faxes.

      Fun story! My mother (not in a health care field) had a work issued pager until about 5 years ago.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Yes, it’s a matter of security.

        Very interesting about your mother — especially since she’s not in health care. Doctors’ offices pioneered pagers close to 70 years ago. And some medical folks — especially in hospitals — use pagers over cell phones because (1) pagers can still receive signals way downstairs where medical people sometimes have to go and (2) pagers don’t interfere with sensitive medical equipment the way cell phones might.

    7. Policy wonk*

      A friend of mine’s broker recently started having clients fax information rather than e-mail .pdf files because e-mail is no longer secure enough and faxes don’t bring viruses. Going backwards instead of forward due to the security risk.

  145. And in other news....*

    Well, friends, for the first time in ages I am around to participate in Open Thread. Why? Because last Friday I was laid off….sort of. I had been in this finance job for a year, and wasn’t exactly in love with the place. If you can sit through my rant, I have what I hope is a fresh and useful idea for you all about quietly gathering kindred spirit references in an unhappy office. And so, to The Rant! :)

    Exhibit A – The industry is volatile, so in my interview a year ago I asked about the frequency and predictability of furloughs and layoffs (thank you, Glassdoor, for alerting me to the possibility). They lied to my face, saying that no such thing was imminent. Fast forward one short week to my first day. Company-wide furloughs were announced (reductions to 4-day weeks equaling 20% pay cut). Yeah, right, they weren’t being planned a week before – sure…..I had to fight to be made exempt from that. I would never have accepted a job that paid 20% less than I negotiated. I was astonished that they expected me to participate. They were astonished that I would not agree to it. I should have left then and there.

    Exhibit B – My untrained and inexperienced manager (who I learned this week burned out three people in my role before me, not one, each lasting barely a year) was emotional, moody & dramatic, and had been doing some of my tasks for so long that she couldn’t think through all the minute details I needed to learn to get them 100% correct. She relished scolding me. I came in one Monday to find that she had moved my entire cubicle to right outside her office, so that she could ‘keep an eye on me’. Please. I never gave her any reason to believe I needed to be monitored. At least she kept her office door shut on days she was fighting by phone with her boyfriend.

    Exhibit C – Last Monday, my proximity to her office paid off. There had been uneasy rumors floating around that layoffs were imminent. They call it ‘right-sizing’. Unbelievable. My manager and a C-level exec were having a quiet but audible conversation in her office about the plan. I heard my manager say, “Oh, I don’t do layoffs. I need a firing under my belt to prove I’m a strong manager.” Shocking, but I was ready. I closed the Excel sheet I was working on, opened Word and drafted an elegant resignation letter, dated that day. Printed it, signed it, scanned it and saved a draft of an email to send to HR to get that time stamp in there quickly, and waited until the C-level left her office. I went straight into her office and resigned, and then returned to my desk, and hit ‘send’ on my HR email. My manager was shocked, deflated and angry. Later that day, HR formalized my resignation, marking me as “voluntary separation, would rehire”, insulating me from any wrath she could come up with. That also formalized my manager’s track record of four resignations on her watch. The bodies are mounting! No wonder she wanted a firing so badly. Put a permanent black mark on my employment record that would turn off prospective employers, just to make her feel better? I don’t think so.

    I gave a diplomatic exit interview, because doing anything more was pointless. Also, because from the start I had been documenting my projects, and because I had completed everything currently assigned to me, and because I couldn’t take another day of my manager stomping around and pouting, I arranged for my last day to be last Friday. Friday the 13th. How apt. I have a nice emergency fund, have gotten lots of wonderful sleep, have applied to two interesting jobs this week, and plan to rock the heck out of the holidays. What an enormous relief!

    AND!!!!! The good news, that I hope will be of use to you all. This was a very tense & uncomfortable place with a lot of whispering, and it became clear others would jump ship if they could. I picked up on that a few months ago. I made gentle overtures and found enthusiastic interest. A small group of us started to have frank conversations about the morale, and about the world of better choices out there. Many were in my boat, with a negative manager who would be a disastrous reference. So, we pre-emptively created a plan. If one colleague was assigned a new task, another would ask to be cross-trained on it as well, as backup. Good for the company, but also, good for the reference! Over lunch we took turns discussing our main ‘resume-ready’ tasks, so that we could all understand them and speak intelligently about them. If there was any way to work together on anything, we did it. We broke down the company’s silos of dependence on managers and created sympathetic and knowledgeable references for each other. We started as a group of 4. As of last Friday there were 12. That is the entire department except the managers.

    And so here we are. I got out alive! And I hope the same for everyone here who feels stuck and unhappy. We get it. We kindred spirits are everywhere!

    1. Business Librarian*

      This was the best thing I’ve read in a while. Especially the way everyone banded together. May you all live long and prosper!

      1. And in other news....*

        And you, Business Librarian! If others here are inspired to quietly create ‘resume clubs’ in their workplaces to protect each other if things go south, my dreadful ex-job will not have been for nothing! :)

  146. Chronic Overthinker*

    Need advice! What is the general etiquette of gift giving at the office, especially when you are support staff? I know gifts are supposed to flow downward generally, but I got gifts from the other two support staff on my team. Should I give them something in reciprocation or just a nice thank you note? I’ve only been here for five months but have already gotten a holiday bonus (though I suspect they give that to everyone) and I’m not sure what I should do…

    1. HRAwry*

      For your co-workers, if it’s within your budget and you want to a small gift is appropriate ($10.00 Starbucks gift card,) or you could get them a thank you card with a nice note on how
      you’ve enjoyed working with them and getting to know them. :)

    2. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      Candy, a trinket, a hand-crocheted ornament, offer to bring them coffee, etc.

      The etiquette around these things is usually loose, but if you’re fairly new and aren’t sure how it is in your office, reciprocating with a small token act or object ought to do the job.

  147. Mammoth Springs*

    I have been 100% failing my interviews.

    I have been getting these questions and I DON’T know how to answer them. The first category is “Why do you know this thing?”

    -How come you were able to do your job if you didn’t study it in school?
    -Why do you know how to use Excel?
    -How come you know how to do xyz?

    I know it sounds like the same question, but I get it phrased so many different ways and I don’t know how to answer it! The real answer is, because I just did it! I just… did it! I don’t know! I know other people struggle with certain software and take classes and have to practice for years… and I literally don’t. I’m just good at picking up software in an hour or two and I’ve always been a quick study. I don’t have a better answer for it, but that’s not an acceptable answer. My friend told me to just say, “Oh I learned it in school” even if I didn’t because I panic when I get that question.

    Also I get questions like:
    -Tell me about a time when you had to fire someone — what did you say to them exactly? How long did it take? What was the goal of the person you were firing? (What?) Oh, because you said they weren’t hitting YOUR goals so what was THEIR goal? (Uhhhhhhhhh what?!?!?!)

    -Tell me about a time that you had to sacrifice your work for something long-term that wouldn’t give you results for months. (Uhhhh well I think work is about balancing getting stuff done with creating long-term efficiencies.) WRONG ANSWER YOU NEED TO HAVE SACRIFICED SOMETHING. (OK… well, when we pivoted, we were potentially sacrificing the trust we had built up with the investors to change the business model.) WHAT ELSE DID YOU SACRIFICE? (*Cries.*)

    -Tell me about a process and project you oversaw. (Well, with Teapot Company I oversaw the product. We would have new additions or changes every few months and I would oversee those.) IS THAT THE BIGGEST PROJECT YOU OVERSAW? HOW MANY PEOPLE DID IT AFFECT? HOW MANY PEOPLE WORKED ON IT? HOW BIG WAS THE COMPANY? WHY DID YOU HAVE TO MAKE CHANGES? WHAT IS YOUR STRATEGY FOR EACH SECTION? (Ahgiajdgadfhad.)

    I know these questions are normal! I just get really freaked out by them and I don’t know how to do a better job of answering them.

    I’d rather someone just ask me, “OK, in this job we do xyz. How would you handle this process?” Instead it’s like all these seemingly negative scenarios about past jobs. Things change all the time in work, and it’s not a big deal. It’s not like I have these big traumatic fires I am always putting out because I am pretty proactive, and when something does need to change, I just iterate!

    I don’t know what kinds of answers they want or are looking for.

    1. new kid*

      The fact that you pick up software quickly without extended study is an ASSET not a detriment, so I would definitely not take your friend’s advice to lie (!) that you learned it in school.

      How about something like, “I’m actually self taught! I realized Excel would be a great way to do X at OldJob so I taught myself the basics to get started and then learned a lot of tips and tricks along the way as I continued to perfect X process.”

      I don’t know who put it in your head that being self taught in things is a bad answer, but that’s a really useful skill to have!

      1. Mammoth Springs*

        The interviewers!!! The interviewers make it seem bad. They don’t grasp that I can just pick things up, I think because most people struggle and probably because THEY struggled! They don’t seem to believe me and I feel like they think I’m lying. When I say that, I get asked the same question again! “OK, but HOW did you learn to do it if it wasn’t your major?!” adjfoiadsjfoiadhgoaidhoidhfoidhf. As if anyone learns excel in school! This has happened multiple times and now I just panic.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t know that they don’t grasp it; it may be that they’re trying to differentiate you from people who claim to know stuff, and they’re not good at asking about specifics that would indicate that. This is like “professional certification or equivalent experience,” and you’re claiming equivalent experience, and without the certification they need to plumb the depths of just what that means.

          Interviews can just be kind of abrasive as an experience, even with nice interviewers; we just don’t intensely explain ourselves for an hour or so in normal life. It sounds like you realize this is just the process, so I’d interpret it as impersonally as possible and just aim for Zen.

            1. fposte*

              Think about what you want them to know and what they might want you to do; use specifics to bolster. “I fell into Excel and loved it, so I handle my family’s finances that way (I remember my thrill at learning about vlookup) and became very popular in group projects in college for my ability to create pivot tables on the fly. Then at a temp job I was the Excel doctor and I translated a backlog of multi-page tables in Word into neat, easily updatable workbooks.” You can translate that format to pretty much any skill; you’re storytelling yourself a bit but also answering the subtextual question of “How can we make use of you?”

          2. Middle Manager*

            Agreed. I want specific examples. We’ve had people interview and rate themselves as great at excel because they data entered addresses into an already built spreadsheet and people tell us they are average because they build complex spreadsheets, but haven’t mastered pivot tables.

            For me at least, if you can give some concrete examples of the type of work you have done, that would put to rest the concern that you claiming to be a self-taught expert but are actually basically someone who has seen a spreadsheet.

            1. Mammoth Springs*

              Yeah I mean I did financial analysis in my job so pivot tables were just part of my job. It was so long ago I don’t remember learning it just like I don’t really remember my manager telling me to do any other part of my job. At least if I can translate “how is it possible you know this?” to “what are some ways you’ve used it?” I feel like I can answer the question better. I haven’t hired enough people to know that most people say they know how to do something that they don’t.

        2. tired and wired*

          I ask that question in interviews because 9 out of 10 people who claim that they “can just pick things up” actually can’t and they think more highly of their skills than is accurate. So, yes, most people do exaggerate about this. Concrete examples are good and show you’re not smugly overstating how smart you are.

    2. My Highnessness (fka juliebulie)*

      Some of those questions are not normal, IMO. It sounds as though you interviewed with some deranged people. (“What else did you sacrifice?” It sounds like they were waiting for you to say something specific. “A goat”?)

      If lunatics are asking you weird questions that you can’t answer to their satisfaction, then congratulations, you just dodged a bullet. Which is probably not much consolation when you’re looking for a job, but on the bright side, you might actually end up in a sane and healthy working environment.

      (On the rare occasions I’ve been asked ridiculous questions, I’ve countered with clarifying questions of my own. “It sounds as though you have something specific in mind. Do you want my honest answer, or should I guess?” It’s sort of confrontational, but I probably wouldn’t work well with a boss who would take offense to a question like that.)

      1. Kelly Kapur*

        I have the opportunity to go into a higher-level job but I’m stressed out about it. Primarily… I worry that I don’t *care* enough about a company to give it my all. I don’t know how to find the balance between understanding you won’t be rewarded for your efforts (at least not for a year or more) but you should still do enough to keep your job. Like, when it’s your own company, the result is 100% based on what you you put into it.

        1. Kelly Kapur*

          ***Whoops I meant to make this it’s own thread! I will comment again below if it lets me and hopefully this will be deleted

      2. Bananatiel*

        Yeah! The sacrifice question is definitely coming from a VERY specific and unique situation that happened in that office and now they’re looking for a magical answer that the person formerly in that role didn’t have because it doesn’t exist lol. I can see where maybe Mammoth might be having a hard time formulating answers but it also sounds like some of these interviewers/companies are bullets being dodged.

        1. Mammoth Springs*

          I don’t know. That was from a very well-known company that a lot of people want to work for… I didn’t get along with the person interviewing that well, but he wouldn’t have been my manager. He was in a similar role in another city.

    3. OrangeCat*

      I think you’re being too hard on yourself. They’re trying to get to know you and your experience, not trick you (and if they are trying to trick you, you don’t want to work there). Just answer to the best of your ability and they’ll make whatever they want out of the answer. Interviewers will ask follow up questions (Like, how many people, how big) to get a sense of your background. There’s no “wrong answer”.

      For the “how do you know this” type questions, just tell them how you know it. Did you look it up on Google? Did a coworker teach you? You can say “I taught myself to use Excel by Googling things. I usually learn software pretty quickly, so when I need to do something new, I can usually find an answer online and teach myself how to [create pivot tables, use formulas, build macros].” The other questions seem kind of odd

      1. Mammoth Springs*

        Yeah I definitely feel like they are trying to trick me and that’s a bad perspective I think.

        The truth is — I just used it. I mean I see it like, software companies have a vested interest in making their software as easy as possible to use. I don’t really understand why 99% of people struggle so much so it’s really hard for me to imagine not being able to learn something quickly.

        1. Product Person*

          A“The truth is, I just used it.

          Hmmm, I might get a bit suspicious if I were your interviewer. Really? Did you just opened Excel for the first time and started creating Vlook queries and pivot tables without any help whatsoever? I get being a quick self-learner, but it’s not like software like most software are great at usability, and some stuff may have required you searching for answers. I think that if you give it some thought, you will come up with some good answers that will confirm to your interviewers that not only you know what you say you know, but you are resourceful enough to pick up new skills as they become necessary.

          Something like this:

          “Well, in my last job we needed someone to download CSV files from AWS, make updates to them, and send back to an S3 bucket. I had never used AWS but did a google search, landed in a couple of useful StackOverflow threads, and quickly learned how to use CLI commands to set up my AWS credentials and create a bash script to perform the data transfer without having to type the commands every time. This is how typically learn new skills: when the need arises I go after the information available online, and so far this method has never failed.”

        2. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

          I don’t struggle learning new things in some areas, but a lot of people do.

          The interviewer really wants to hire you, but they need to make sure you have the skills that are on your resume/CV/covering letter. They don’t know you or how you perform (yet) so they have to ask a lot of questions to make sure you’re doing to do the job. But they do want to hire you, because doing more interviews takes time and they need someone.

          I’ll explain where they might be coming from. A lot of people will claim to know Excel (or be a line cook, or how to plaster a wall, or whatever) because they overestimate their skills, or are outright lying.

          At my work, I implemented a short Excel test as well as an interview to get confirmation that candidates can use these skills. It is downright shocking how many people will confidently say, “I am very experienced, I use Excel at an advanced level and put my skills at 9/10”, but completely fail to do a VLOOKUP or SUMIF or pivot table, or even sort and filter.

          I wonder if the interviewers are probing further because they know people overestimate their skills, and want to find out more about your learning methods, as a way of confirming you are being realistic with your self-assessment. I am almost 100% self-taught.

          Product Person has a good answer below. It explains why they needed to learn the skill, how they learned it (sources) and the benefit to their employer.

        3. MissDisplaced*

          Mammoth, are you from a blue collar, working class background moving into professional office jobs? Because I hear that in your comments. And that feeling is so, so common for those of us with that background who’ve moved up.

          They’re really mostly not trying to “trick” you.
          But they do expect you to maybe clarify or quantity some more. I believe the quantifying portion may be lacking in your case. When they ask how big the project was, be prepared wit facts and figures ($500k for 6 months and 8 subcontractors), it’s not a trick question.

          How did you learn Excel? I had a need in X job to use Excel so I utilized the software manufacturer’s online training modules to learn A, B and C. I began putting what I learned into practice, becoming very proficient at using it to produce Z reports monthly.

          Or, I once said I learned a software package from a book, which I did! (It was one of those classroom in a book manuals).

          As to the sacrifice question, that’s more unusual. I’ve often answered that by saying something about learning, and sacrificing my personal time to go to school or take a class to keep my skills updated. But this is tricky, because they may mean the job requires lots of overtime, travel or other things.

          1. Mammoth Springs*

            Ohhhhhhhh. I thought they were asking me like what did the company sacrifice. Like we sacrifice short term revenue for long-term revenue but it was a little bit of a stretch

            1. MissDisplaced*

              Well, I’m not entirely sure having not been there, so I’m going on what you heard.
              “Tell me about a time that you had to sacrifice your work for something long-term that wouldn’t give you results for months.”

              But I did take it that they wanted you to discuss something YOU personally made a sacrifice on, either in life, on the job, or for your career?

              It’s not a common of a question in interviews! That question would’ve thrown me a bit too, and I probably would have asked them to clarify in case I misheard or misunderstood what they were probing for. To be honest, I don’t think I’d really have an answer for that one. I guess they’re trying to get at things like how you’d stick out a task you disliked, or how you’d behave if the going got tough, or being able to see the big ‘goal’ down the road and bite the bullet to achieve it. Maybe things like coaching or training a subordinate that pays off later. I can see this being asked more for a manager role with direct reports.

              Given your examples, is it possible you might rush to answer too quickly? I do that sometimes when I’m nervous and have bombed interviews over it. It’s OK to ask to take a moment, or even just say you haven’t a direct example of that situation. They may ask it again in a different manner.

  148. HRAwry*

    I’m having a conundrum.

    I’m in my late 20’s just about entering my
    30’s and I got into law school (Canada). It’s not one of the prestigious schools and it’s actually the newest law school.

    I work in an area of HR that really teeters on the line of HR/employment law (think sexual harassment investigations, tribunals etc..) and I’ve been in ER for 4 years since graduating from my masters. I’m current at a manager-level role with dotted line direct reports (I give advice on how they should manage cases etc… but I don’t manage their performance.)

    In looking at Job postings in my area (geographically and industry); higher up positions (think director-level) are now asking for a law degree.

    I think it’s important to go since I have director level and above aspirations. I very much want to stay in the employment law realm since it touches on human rights, investigations etc…

    But… I worry about opportunity cost and being “old” or failing.

    Has anyone else gotten a law degree to push them forward in their career?

  149. Lucette Kensack*

    Sexism rant.

    I am so, so tired of seeing men automatically get paid well, and accelerate smoothly into bigger and better roles, while the women around me toil and stretch and fight for every 3% raise or tiny new project.

    A male colleague just got a sweet new role at a different organization. He was hired away by another man who has served as his champion. Mr. Champion also used to work here, and hired my soon-to-be-former colleague as an intern at my organization when Mr. Colleague was in grad school; then created a role for him and hired him in with no formal process (highly unusual at my organization) when Colleague graduated; advocated for Colleague to be promoted to Champion’s role when Champion left last year; and now has hired him away. Colleague has three years of post-grad-school experience; he’s replacing a woman with 20+ years of experience (and a graduate degree from the same program). Colleague is good at his job and deserves to have good opportunities, but you just don’t see the same sort of smooth pathway get paved for women and I’m never going to stop being furious about that.

    I’ve been fighting a many-years-long pay equity battle at my organization (with significant, but not complete, results) so this is raw as hell for me.

    1. Buttons*

      F-that noise! I am so sorry!! It is so disheartening and downright scary that this is still the norm. Is this a male-dominated field/industry, or is the corporate culture where you are?

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        No, not at all. I work in the nonprofit sector. Women make up about 75% of nonprofit employees, but only around 45% of senior leadership (across the sector).

    2. Mammoth Springs*

      Yeah uhhhhhhh yeah. Yup. I’ve sort of accepted that my life will always be worse. So that’s depressing.

      1. irene adler*

        Yep. Me too. The guys who get paid more than I do, ask me how to do stuff because they don’t know how. Sucks. You are not a team player if you don’t help them out when asked.

    3. Super Anon For This One*

      I hear you.

      My otherwise glowing review had feedback on it that feels like it could be gendered (in that men here exhibit the same behavior with no similar feedback) and…BAH.

      The older I get the angrier I get about it all.

  150. Not a Blossom*

    I am trying to update my resume and I am just so, so bad at it. I’m following Allison’s advice, but this is just not my forte. Please tell me it’s not just me. Everyone hates writing resumes, right?

    1. Buttons*

      I love it, but I am in Talent Management and Development, so I know what people are looking for and how to get your resume viewed when the company has an online system that randomly checks for words.
      Tips: Pull up job postings for jobs you are applying for or would like to apply for, and use similar words for your job descriptions. My standard formula that has worked for all the resumes I have redone for people- is to start each statement with a verb;
      Managed X, resulting in Y
      Oversaw Z, leading to an increase in A
      Led project X, which delivered BC and D on time
      Partnered with other team/SME/Leaders to accomplish J
      Provided
      Aided

      Hope this helps. If you have a specific question on how to phrase something, feel free to post it here.
      Good luck!

      1. Not a Blossom*

        Thank you! That does help! It gets me in the right mind frame to think of what I accomplished (versus what I did)

        Right now, I’m working on updating my “master resume,” the 3-page behemoth that lists ALL the things and that I cut down/tailor for each job application.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It’s a toss-up between which is worse for me: Writing my resume or a cover letter. I think cover letters win, because at least I can cite objective accomplishments in a resume. My sympathies, fellow sentient being!

  151. TooTiredToThink*

    I am super frustrated today. I keep being given duties for other people because “they don’t have time to do them” (as if I do!) and every time I turn around they are all either talking and chatting to other people or playing on their phones or decorating their offices for the decorating contest. While I don’t want to deny my coworkers quiet moments; the optics are just not good and I’ve got so much anxiety for all these projects I am doing.

    1. valentine*

      Walk it over and say, “Looks like you’re free, so I’m returning this”?

      It’s like watching someone who owes you money spend money.

  152. Niniel*

    I have a communication question after the explanation:

    I work in a construction-adjacent field and I am responsible for putting together notes on what will become construction proposals. I am tasked with describing what work will be done. These notes are then input into an estimating system by my boss’ secretary, and then finalized and approved by my boss before sending to a client.

    My issue is that I don’t always describe things the way my boss describes them, and it’s hard for me to think like he does. So I will turn something in, he will make a few edits to my notes, and then his secretary will input the edited notes into the system. Then when my boss and I review a proposal, 95% of it looks like what I wrote. And I am asked to compare my notes to the final product, which rarely matches 100%. It leads to a lot of confusion and more work on my part. Often these proposals go through multiple edits, and it’s hard to tell where the communication broke down between the 3 of us, and we all get confused. My boss isn’t often clear about things, which doesn’t help. How can I approach this with him and see where we can improve communication? I can see areas where it breaks down, but I am not sure how to fix them.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Then when my boss and I review a proposal, 95% of it looks like what I wrote. And I am asked to compare my notes to the final product, which rarely matches 100%.

      I’m not entirely clear what the problem is. You describe things one way (“The blue teapot has a long spout, with an elegant curve”) your boss describes it another and eventually you have a final product that’s a bit different (“The blue-ish teapot has a stretched out spout, with a curve”).

      Is the problem that your notes and the final product don’t line up perfectly or is it that the meanings are substantially different enough that it could cause problems (i.e. originally “blue teapot” and now “orange teapot”)? Because 5% off doesn’t seem like an issue, unless it’s going to cause real, practical differences.

  153. Great Beyond*

    My boss will ask me about an issue or concern, but when I answer, she’s almost defensive about it. Then why ask in the first place? I don’t say anything bad, for one thing I just talked about labeling Teapot displays. She freaked out and was all, “Isn’t there something in the database? Did you search there first?”

    She doesn’t like it when I don’t contribute, but I’m almost afraid to because she jumps down my throat.

    Any

    Is there any safe way to answer her questions? Has anyone been through this?

  154. Taura*

    I wonder if anyone has any advice for dealing with transphobic coworkers? (I’m nonbinary, and not out at work, for context.) I work in a very conservative-in-attitude office in Texas, so I know to expect a certain amount of bigotry just in general, but the other day I had a coworker pretty much corner me in the break room so she could expound on how liberals in general and trans people specifically were ruining the country, and now I don’t know how to deal with her. I have tried redirecting the conversation (no dice), bringing it up to our manager in a “this is loud and distracting, and I need her not to do this” kind of way (also no dice) and I have now finally resorted to avoiding her and not speaking to her as much as possible. I am still answering her work emails/questions, and I don’t turn around and walk out of the room if she comes in, but I feel like this is both unsustainable and mildly unprofessional. I just don’t know what else to do considering where trying to actually address this got me.

    1. Bananatiel*

      YMMV since I’m not sure about conservative Texas, but in the conservative midwest I’ve sometimes had to literally do the wide-eyed, mouth slightly agape reaction that clearly spells out “omg did you really just say that?” without actually having to say that which does the trick sometimes, depending on the person. It might be super-effective with me because I’m not a very animated, emotional person, ha.

      I once had a coworker come at me full force about Obama’s birth certificate just completely out of nowhere. And when he finally paused to breathe I wasn’t sure what to say and just blurted out, “wow, did I sign up for a debate club or something??” in kind of a joking way. And he looked at me confused so I clarified: “Obviously you’re very passionate about this but I just have a personal policy of not talking politics at work, sorry” And I was pleasantly surprised that he never went there again. But I was ready to come back with “oh! I think you forgot about my personal policy on politics” if I had to in the future.

      1. Taura*

        I will have to try that, thank you. I thought explicitly changing the subject/saying “no, I am not going to talk about this with you” would get her to stop, but maybe I need to change tactics.

        1. Fikly*

          Yes, I have a policy of not talking politics or religion at work. If someone tries to start, I state that, and it’s pretty successful. Not wanting to discuss potentially controversial topics at work isn’t that controversial, happily.

        2. Avasarala*

          This is what I do in similar situations, personal and professional. If they just explode word vomit on you, you can definitely respond with something like, “Why are we yelling about this??” or basically sidestepping the content of what they were saying and acting like they just started ranting about the ending of GOT at you apropos of nothing. The key is not to engage on the topic, no matter how tempting it is to correct them…

  155. Me--Blargh!*

    It’s been almost two months since I moved and I still haven’t found anything. I did hear back from one data analyst job. They sent me an extremely persnickety test, on which I had to edit text to exactly match a document that had very long strings of scientific equations (I actually enjoyed doing this). They’re looking for 100% accuracy to make it to a phone interview. Of course that means I probably made a mistake. I sent it this morning, so we’ll see. I’m hoping it’s not one of those things where you have quotas and have to be perfect or you’ll get fired. I don’t want that kind of pressure.

    Last Saturday, I went to Walmart. There was a Santa Claus outside near a fire truck, and as I walked by, I said, “Hey Santa! All I want for Christmas is A JOB!” Santa said, “Hey, I work for [utility in the city] and we’re always hiring. We’re hiring now.” I said, thanks Santa, and when I got home, I looked it up. There were two office jobs–one records clerk, which is a tad below my skill level, and one that was mostly accounting (nope). I applied for the records job and mentioned that Santa referred me and that I was hoping for a Christmas miracle. They’ll either have a great sense of humor or they won’t!

    Dear Santa, I just want a great job doing what I’m good at that pays enough for me to live where I want to live, allows me to have healthcare, and and lets me have some fun / travel. *sigh*

    Anyway, I’m going to see Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker today, so at least I can forget about it for a few hours.

  156. Dezzi*

    TLDR: My direct report is being creeped on by an older male supervisor, I’m pretty sure to the point where it counts as sexual harassment, but she’s incredibly reluctant to give me specifics on what’s going on and I’m not there every day to see what’s happening. What do I do? How do I support her?

    Longer version: I have one direct report, who I don’t actually see very often because she works in a different department. (Not as weird as it sounds–I was tapped last year to run a pilot project, we wanted to see if having a coach for our Llama Wranglers would improve llama care & reduce staff turnover. I work over in Chinchilla Grooming, but everyone knows these kind of projects are my jam. I don’t see my employee often because she’s a total rockstar and most days the best thing I can do as her manager is stay out of her way & let her do her thing.)

    I noticed over the past few months that she’s seemed really stressed, but she didn’t want to talk to me about why. Fine, I’m not her therapist. I’ve made sure she knows she can take a day off any time she needs it without having to give me advance notice, given her the EAP info, and told her repeatedly that I’m always here to help problem solve if she wants help. Her performance has been amazing and the pilot has been a huge success, I make sure to tell her every time I hear a compliment about her work (which is often).

    Last week she finally broke down and told me that one of the Llama Wrangler Supervisors she works with is boundary-stomping and creepy. He’s texting her on her personal phone at odd hours, calling her repeatedly during the workday to ask where she is, talking to her about conflicts with his boss, saying weird things to her, etc. I helped her block his number on her personal phone, gave her my official permission to stop being so nice to this dude, and gave her an arsenal of responses to use when he starts crossing lines. I asked if she wanted to be moved to a different team of Llama Wranglers so she wouldn’t have to see him; she adamantly refused, saying she loves the current team and doesn’t want to abandon them because of him. She told me he makes inappropriate comments sometimes, but refused to give me examples. I asked her to please at least send herself an email any time he does that, so she has the documentation. I then went straight to HR, who assured me they would handle the problem, but asked if I had any more specifics of what he’s said/done.

    I’m sure this guy has said a lot worse things to her than she’s told me about, and we all know that guys who creep on one female coworker half their age are probably doing it to others as well. I want to support her, and I want to be able to give HR as much ammunition as possible to fire this guy, but she really doesn’t want to tell me more and I feel icky trying to drag things out of her. I’m having twice-weekly face to face meetings with her for now, to give her a safe space to vent and troubleshoot and stuff, but is there anything else I can/should be doing?

    1. HRAwry*

      A common (and justified) fear people have is retaliation and loosing their job.

      Have you asked her why kind of support and outcome she is looking for? Maybe that’ll help you better understand why she came to you. That’ll also open the conversation to walk her through what steps HR may take, what a workplace investigation is and what confidentiality and your workplaces non-retaliation policy looks like.

      1. Dezzi*

        She just told me the content of the messages he was sending to her personal phone. She doesn’t want to tell HR about any of this, and asked me not to, but I am morally and legally not allowed to sit on that kind of information.

        We talked through the things that had made her scared of going to HR, and most of them were really unfounded and I was able to dispel them. I really wish I could have let pursuing this with HR be her decision, and I hope she doesn’t end up hating me too much for taking that choice away from her.

        1. valentine*

          Can you get him moved to another team?

          I would tell her that HR and I have seen it all and heard it all, that creeps are unoriginal, and I understand if she’s embarrassed because he has said ribald things, but the details do matter and sharing them may help her. Maybe she would let you look at the text messages, but nothing more? And then, you could quote them to HR. Or if she let you photograph them, that would let her feel like she’s at a remove.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Been here, did this. We had a harassment policy on the books that my company seemingly forgot existed until I brought it to their attention. He ended up working remotely for a bit until they figured out what they wanted to do. There was some extra stuff involved outside of just work, but it was very much Not Fun for me.

    1. Llama Face!*

      Oh wow. I bet there’s all kinds of lawsuits that anyone with medical conditions that means they’re on the pot for longer than average times could file. Or someone with hip or joint issues for that matter…
      What a jerk idea.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        That would probably dislocate my bad hip immediately. I would be unable to go to the bathroom in a place with those toilets unless I wanted to ask someone to help me relocate my joints. That’s just messed up.

  158. Trying so hard to be humble*

    I don’t know how to deal with sexism in interviews. I can feel their shock when they see me. Despite having 14 years of experience, I look young, attractive, and fit. (I don’t want to sound like I’m gloating or being stuck-up, but I don’t know how else to say it!!! I work out, people ask me regularly if I’m in college and I get hit on constantly.)

    It’s like I can FEEL their shock and it’s like I’m already starting the interview from -5 because I’m not what they were expecting… and… I don’t know how to recover from it.

    1. Bananatiel*

      Sounds like the first thing people are responding to is you looking young, primarily, just based on what you’re saying. I think Alison has addressed this in the past so I’d do some searching on the site for her advice which will surely be better than mine.

      I’m pretty petite and I guess I look young for my age (I don’t really see it but people are strange and mention it all the time)– my approach in interviews is to try to combat that by dressing “older.” It’s not great that I have to make an effort to appear older but it’s been fairly effective. I’ll stay away from “youthful colors” and make sure my interview clothing is tailored perfectly so I don’t look like I’m a kid in my mom’s pantsuit, ha. Pulling my hair back helps with the illusion, too.

      Of course, that’s the route to go if you want to try to stop the comments before they happen. I totally respect not wanting to change your appearance at all because I cringed a bit even as I was typing that, and if you do go that route, I think I’d work on reminding yourself in the moment that it’s possible for people to see past their first impression of you as the interview goes on. Chalk it up to a physical trait you can’t help like being really tall or whatnot. If they show other red flags during the interview that the culture isn’t great (or make other sexist remarks) I’d try to put more weight on that then the initial impressions/comments.

    2. Red Sunglasses*

      What are they doing in the interview to make it feel like they’ve discredited you based on your looks? I think you’ve gotta address the behavior heads on.

    3. Anon Here*

      I have been in the same boat, thanks to luck and taking good care of my health.

      The only thing that helps, for me, is to make specific references to my age and/or experience. “These widgets have come a long way since ’95, when I first started using them as an undergraduate.” I then talk in a way that is humble yet conveys deep knowledge of the subject matter. And if questions come up, I mention that I work out and I eat my vegetables, and that I’m lucky, as that is also a factor.

      There is a bias towards people who are conventionally attractive, and people who look “healthy,” so that’s something to keep in mind. You just need to offer hard facts to convey what your accomplishments are.

      1. Trying so hard to be humble*

        Hmmmm. Maybe I should using being attractive to my advantage. I just don’t want to come off like I’m flirting!

        1. Trying so hard to be humble*

          You know what. Right after I said that I realized that that is what I’m doing — I’m trying to shut myself off from seeming flirtatious so much that I’m totally shutting down in the interviews! I feel like that’s part of the reason I’ve been successful in sales. I am naturally flirtatious but I just was like, “Oh that’s not professional.” So when I have interviews with women or gay men I feel more comfortable being myself, but with seemingly straight men, I feel like, “Oh no, I can’t seem flirty!”

  159. Mark M*

    Quick question all – I have an interview for a promotion within my team that I have been on for 4 years. I am interviewing with my direct manager and his colleague, both of whom I interact with daily. Standard office dress is business casual, and I can honestly count on one hand the number of days in the past 4 years that I have worn my suit to the office. The interview takes place during my normal work hours. Given this context, is wearing a suit that day to work unnecessary?

    1. Bananatiel*

      Any way you can dress up your normal attire without going full formal? Maybe you iron out everything, wear a nicer jacket, something like that? Get a fresh haircut beforehand? Just brainstorming ways you can show that you’re taking the interview seriously and want to make a good impression without sticking out in the full suit.

      Though, if it’s a known thing you’re interviewing and you’re not looking to hide that you are, I don’t think it’s the worst idea to wear the suit. But if you’re hoping to conceal that you’re interviewing among colleagues I’d go for something in between your normal dress and the suit.

    2. LQ*

      I’m going to come down on the side of no, as long as you are otherwise treating it seriously. I think normal work attire is going to be fine, unless your new role would be expected to wear a suit all the time (or even frequently).

    3. Kiwiii*

      I wonder if a good middle ground might be wearing something that looks more or less within the normal dress code (maybe a touch nicer, if your business casual is more like clean jeans and a button down vs. say slacks and a dress shirt), but throw a blazer on over it for the actual interview?

  160. High chair for short person?????*

    Do any short people (5′-ish with very short thigh bones even for that height) have recommendations for tall task chairs/drafting stools to use with standing-height desks? I do about 50/50 stand/sit because of an old back injury (& hip & leg & …) and it’s easier with my new cubicle layout to have a tall chair for the sitting portion of the day than having the desk go up/down. None of the office supply places around here have ones you can sit in in the store and all my coworkers who have them are ridiculously tall individuals…I feel like a little kid climbing into the grown-up furniture! Try to keep the price on the lower side since this office needs to buy a bunch of chairs this year.

    Thanks!

    1. Kiwiii*

      I don’t have any suggestions, I just wanted to express some solidarity. i’m not quite as short (5′ 4″ish) but i have ungodly short legs and it’s impossible for me to practically sit in most office chairs. Best of luck on the search!

  161. Anony vas Normandy*

    This is more a vent than anything, but:

    I work at a college that hosts numerous events for area jr/high schools (math day, science fair, history day, sports tournaments, at least one thing every month). Faculty and staff are always encouraged to volunteer at these events – judging FFA speeches, proctoring Math Day, etc. Most people do volunteer, according to their availability, but even if an event is short-handed, no one is required to volunteer.

    Except for the basketball tournament. The business office runs it, and the $ earned from this event goes to the athletic department which, as you can probably guess, already has the most funding. If they don’t get enough volunteers, the business office starts assigning people to shifts (it’s a 3-day event) without consulting them. I’ve been teaching here for 14 years, and volunteered every year except one, and that year the actual director of the business office told me he’d assigned me a shift. I told him I couldn’t work it (I was having surgery, which I didn’t disclose because he’s not in my chain of command and it’s not his business) and we had a tense email exchange during which he told me it was my job to find someone to cover that shift if I refused, and I suggested he look over my faculty contract very carefully before he tried to tell me what my job is again . . . anyway.

    So this year the email for volunteers goes around. I email the person handling it with 2 shifts I can work, and hear nothing back. She sends around another call for volunteers, and I’m not on the list, so I email her again. Nothing. She sends a third all-faculty/staff email, and I’m still not on it, so I email her a third time. Now she tells me that she never got my first two emails, both shifts I want are full, but she’ll put me somewhere else. I tell her that the shifts I volunteered for were the only times I could work, but if they need more coverage during those shifts I’d still be happy to help.

    There are a couple of factors at work here: I don’t think anyone ought to be voluntold to work in general; and I’m angry at the person organizing the volunteers specifically. This isn’t the first time she’s . . . we’ll say, let things slip. She’s a payroll clerk, and over the last year there’ve been numerous times when hourly employees missed a check, when faculty didn’t get overload pay – I know one who taught summer classes and didn’t get paid until October, and each time the faculty member emailed payroll about it, this person acted like she’d never heard about the problem before. So we’ve got a generally bad policy exacerbated by incompetence.

    And I just don’t want another spat with a department director :-(

    1. Bananatiel*

      I work at a university with relatively well-funded athletic dept so this is somewhat baffling to begin with but… isn’t this something that maybe students or, heck, student-athletes should be helping run? If that’s not somehow already a part of the event I’d start pushing for it as an obvious untapped resource. There are plenty of events that are powered mostly by student volunteers at my university.

      1. Anony vas Normandy*

        You’d think so, wouldn’t you? My department uses a lot of student volunteers for the events we hold, and so do most of the others. I understand there may be liability issues with allowing students, rather than employees, to handle money, but there are many positions within the tournament that don’t involve money.

  162. First Trimester*

    I’m wondering if anyone has experience with applying for jobs before/during maternity leave? Or how you timed a job transition either during or after pregnancy?

    Background: I’ve been at my current job for about four years and it is good but not great. I’m the main breadwinner for my family but one of the issues is that I’m at a non-profit with a strict budget so I’ve been repeatedly told that a raise is not possible. I get about a 1% cost of living increase each year, regardless of how well my performance reviews go, and it’s been getting harder and harder to make ends meet because of this. Also, my parents and in-laws all live far away and my husband and I are realizing we’ll need more support, so we’re hoping to leave our current area.

    Overall, my “dream” is to work 100% remotely to help with the location issue as well as hopefully being able to get a somewhat higher income so I started applying for jobs within the last year. I had one position where I was their second choice candidate but they understandably went with a person who had way more experience than me. After that, I hit a dry spell where I couldn’t find anything to apply for since I’m no longer entry-level but don’t necessarily want a senior management position, so it’s a bit tougher to find what I’m looking for.

    Now, the complication is that I recently found out I’m pregnant again. I’m thinking it would be best to stay with my current position due to insurance, FMLA, etc. However, I don’t think it will be sustainable once I have another addition in my family. I have no idea when to apply for jobs though now since it feels a bit hopeless. If I’m lucky, a good job prospect would come along right before or during maternity leave and then I could use that time to apply, interview, etc. This seems like very wishful thinking though so I don’t know if it makes sense to keep looking now, even though the next few months wouldn’t be the best timing to start a new position…

    Sorry, this is more of a vent but does anyone have any experience where they were looking for a new job right around the time they were expecting? Or any words of wisdom, advice, etc. I really have no idea what to do at this point so I feel like I’m grasping at straws here. I don’t want to get far along in the interview process only to reveal that I’m several months pregnant but I also don’t know if I can afford to return to my current position after leave.

  163. Kelly Kapur*

    I have the opportunity to go into a higher-level job but I’m stressed out about it. Primarily… I worry that I don’t *care* enough about a company to give it my all. I don’t know how to find the balance between understanding you won’t be rewarded for your efforts (at least not for a year or more) but you should still do enough to keep your job. Like, when it’s your own company, the result is 100% based on what you you put into it.

    1. LQ*

      I think it’s ok to not want to give a company everything you’ve got. I do think there’s a big difference between giving your all and doing just enough to keep your job. Can you be excellent and put everything in while you’re there but go home by 6 and not work weekends and take vacations? Can you give it 80% during the day (if you have things you have to step away for sometimes) and be like 10% on occasional weekends when there is a crunch but fully off evenings and vacations and most weekends? Does your company actually have a record (one demonstrated over and over, ideally by the person who would be the one making the decision about you) of rewarding performance? Is there a way that you’ll be recognized for your work outside your company and you’re willing to do it for your career? You don’t have to take a higher-level job if you don’t want to. It sounds obvious but sometimes it helps for someone else to say it. I think promotions get idealized in a way that isn’t always healthy.

      (I also don’t think at all that the result of owning your own company is 100% what you put into it. There is so much else there, luck, timing, location, market, etc etc…People can be brilliant and work hard and still fail and that’s not their fault.)

  164. Bananatiel*

    Hey AAM! Here’s an offbeat question for the crowd: have any recommendations for break room “games”?

    Our department head put a WaPo crossword out months ago and it’s turned into an occasional fun, office-wide thing that whenever has a spare moment around the kitchen table they’ll look over the crossword of the day. I’ve found that I’m getting closer to some coworkers that I wouldn’t have otherwise because we end up working on it together and talking about the clues/answers.

    I’ve gathered not everyone loves them, though, and in the spirit of being proactively inclusive I’m wondering if there are any other similar activities we could kind of rotate through that are cheap/free. Someone put a sudoku puzzle out last week and that made me curious if anyone has anything else in their break room that works as an informal conversation starter!

    1. stitchinthyme*

      Some people at my work actually play board games at lunchtime. (I used to play with them, until they started playing one game, Love Letter, to the exclusion of all others — haven’t seen them play anything else in months at least.) Some of the ones we used to play included King of Tokyo, Azul, Splendor, Sabotage, Sushi Go, and Bang! The Dice Game.

    2. CatCat*

      We have some low file cabinets in a central spot and for a long time, we’d have out a jigsaw puzzle and people would randomly study it and place some pieces. Loved it.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      There’s a scrabble-y whiteboard game that I’m sure has a name. Someone starts with a long word like “managerial” and the next person goes off of that. No actual tiles. Just words.

      There’s also the one where you write words and have to write a new one only changing one letter. Like fox > box> bot > tot > toe …

    5. Princesa Zelda*

      At the library where I’m a circ, we put out jigsaw puzzles. Usually they’re 500 pieces, but we have a 1000 piece going right now that’s taking us a long time. One of the LAs has a goal that we’ll finish it by the new year, and it’s almost half-done so we might actually do it!

  165. Half-Caf Latte*

    Here’s the scenario: I used to work for Chocolate Llamas company, and had a 403(b) with them. They were acquired by Academic Chocolate Alpacas, and 2 weeks after the acquisition, I transferred from the Chocolate Llamas office to Academic Chocolate Alpacas HQ, and a new corporate division. I’m now participating in the ACA 403(b) plan, but want to rollover my Llamas 403(b) [and 401(a)] into the ACA 403(b).

    How would I find out whether I’m allowed to make this rollover? I’m unclear on whether the merger complicates my separation status.

    1. fposte*

      I’d start with the custodian of the ACA 403b; they should be on top of the policies for rolling accounts in. It’s pretty commonly allowed; I’d be surprised if it wasn’t. If it’s not, you might be able to roll it into an IRA–HR and the custodian of the Llamas 403b would be the places to check on that.

        1. fposte*

          Bummer; sorry to hear that. Hopefully the old 403b is a decent one and the only downside is complication.

  166. Veva*

    Can I just vent? I had a coworker come in very sick this week, having chills and shaking, sick. A higher up told her she could have stayed home, she responded that she couldn’t because she wanted to be off most of next week for the holidays. Several others told her she needed to take care of herself and she could go home but she didn’t and its just not an office where people are sent home for being sick.
    So I’m frustrated with her coming in but also frustrated because this is what happens when you don’t offer separate sick days, just all inclusive PTO.
    Just hoping no one else gets it.

  167. Meow*

    I have a unique position (combines two areas that sometimes overlap, sometimes don’t) in an area of a field that is very uncommon where I live. I’m very likely the only person in this city with this specific type of position, so it is very, very difficult for me to find numbers on what someone in my position should be paid. I do know what I am being underpaid by a lot (I know how much the previous person in my position made, and it’s about $25k more than I am making), though I have no idea how much I should be asking for. I know it’d be inappropriate to bring up that I know what the previous person was making, so I don’t want to use that as leverage, and $25k more is obviously way too big of an ask anyway. So, with reviews coming up, I definitely want to negotiate. How do I figure out what to ask for? Thanks!!

    1. Combinatorialist*

      Since you mention your two areas sometimes overlap, can you look at what similar positions in similarly sized towns/areas look like? Or another thing to try is extrapolate, look at a few different more common positions in a range of different areas. This should give you the difference in jobs in your city and jobs in another city. Then look at similar positions and try to find the patterns

      1. Meow*

        Unfortunately, these types of jobs are typically in large cities like NY, not my smallish midwestern city. I will look around though and see if I can piece something together. Thanks!

        1. mreasy*

          Could you look at average salaries in the big expensive city, then use a cost of living calculator to reverse engineer the salary to your town?

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I can see $25K being too much to ask all at once, but why is it inappropriate to say you know what the previous person made? Did you find out through nefarious means?

      If not, what about a conversation like, “I know that the previous person made $X. Could you help me understand why my compensation is at $X -$25k?” Followed-up by, “What is the salary band for my position? Because based on what I’ve accomplished in my position, I think I’m worth $X+Y (where Y is a number that’s *at least double* what you consider reasonable). And what’s a path to increase my salary to reach $X?”

      Unless you have a significant experience difference, is this a gendered thing? Do you have an HR department who could help you understand the salary bands?

  168. 1984*

    Short version: My coworker is making me bonkers.

    Long version: My coworker and I both started at entry level during the same year, her a few months before me. We sat at desks in the same area, but worked on separate projects and didn’t even know each other’s names (literally, someone was looking for me, asked her if an ’84’ sat nearby, and she said ‘no’). I knew her mainly as the girl who talked very loudly for long stretches of time with another girl. Then she disappeared from our area. I didn’t know it at the time, but she’d been promoted.

    Then they promoted me, partly to help her out as she’d been working 7 days a week on a project (we’ll call it the A project). I started doing weekends on that project and we split the second one (we’ll call it the B project). However, I was meant to be the lead on the B project, even though it had deliverables on my days off. She was eventually shifted off the A project during the week to a C project. A different manager took over the A project, and she has hated how they’ve handled it ever since – a preview of things to come for me, though I didn’t know it.

    A year later, we mostly work well together. She has been promoted again and she claims to constantly praise me to our boss. We disagree on some B project specifics, but my biggest problem is that she panics about everything and still talks loudly and for long stretches of time, often repeating herself on whatever she thinks is wrong. Mostly, this comes in the form of complaining about the days that I’m off and how hard they are on her (while she also claims to work hard to protect my days off from other people who would try to encroach). She also refuses to let me handle project B by myself when I am in, even though I’ve covered it on my own while she’s been gone more than once, but complains about having to do project B on top of project C, though I also consistently help her with project C (and used to work on project C as an entry-level person). “I can’t” is a phrase I hear from her pretty much every day.

    During my yearly review, I express to my boss that while I generally like her and get along with her, my job can feel like managing her anxiety and it can be overwhelming. He says that she just wants things to be as high in quality for clients as possible (so do I), and we do all have to work together (we just finished talking about how I’ve worked with basically everyone on the team and do so well), but also says he hears me.

    Now, we’re in another transition period. She is moving to take project D while I will be keeping my work on project A and taking over her responsibilities with project C. Project B is going to a new, recently promoted manager.

    1) She has already taken command of training the new manager on project B beginning next week. This would be fine on its own, except she took the time to tell me, “You can work half days next week.” I am already covering for another manager, so no, I can’t. “Oh, well, you can work from home then. And maybe you can take the 30th off.” Miffed level: 3

    2) She now continuously tells me what to do on project C. Any time something happens, she messages me, “You might want to…” 99% of the time, I have already done whatever it is. Miffed level: 5

    3) One of my off days, I came in for a meeting, and she said to me, “I talked to Steve about project E for you.” Project E has been something I’ve worked on with Steve since I was an entry-level (he was my supervisor, I miss him dearly). I’ve continued to help him the past year. She has never worked on it even once. She is afraid it’s going to interfere with my ability to do project C, though, and doesn’t want me to have to work 7 days a week, though since project E is a 1 day a week project, I’m not sure how this works. Miffed level: 10

    To be clear, she is not my boss or my supervisor, though she is senior in position (though only because of the way our current company does promotions; I will be at the same level again once a ‘spot’ opens).

    Maybe these are all petty complaints, but after a year, I’m tired and no longer dealing well with someone else’s anxiety being launched at me. I dread days during the work week because I know I’m going to be screeched at for most of it, often far beyond the time I have to be in (an extreme example, but once it was three hours). It doesn’t help that she recently went on vacation for a full week and I covered her tasks for all 7 days and completed everything ahead of time, without help. I was also hoping that the project transitions would mean I could get some distance from her, so that we could go back to getting along, just working separately, but as with project A, she won’t let go.

    I’m not sure if I’m expressing myself very well here, but in the end, I’m just getting frustrated. So thank you, AAM and community, for letting me vent.

    1. MC*

      You have every right to be frustrated! Dealing with anxiety-riddled micromanagement on projects from a coworker is not easy.

      Is there another superior or an HR person you could bring this up to? It seems like the first person you talked to at your yearly review chalked it up to an interpersonal issue instead of seeing the issues of micromanagement I am sensing. It could also be worth asking about who is on each project and if anyone else should be involved in each of them.

      I am glad you were able to get this all out. Please take care of yourself and be safe. :)

      1. valentine*

        Are you saying she screeched at you for three hours? There’s a massive management problem here, including with the project musical chairs. If you tell her to back off and keep her eyes on her own paper, will your manager back you up? Steve should’ve cut her off and sent her packing.

  169. Foreign Octopus*

    Bit of a specific ask, and I don’t want to get into the whys and wherefores, but I need help with some wording.

    I’ve just done some proofreading work that I thought was a one-off, which is all well and good and suits me just fine, but he’s come back to me and said that he may have more work for me in the future (yay) but he’ll need to invoice me for it (nooo). Because of the nature of my setup and various external things, I’m not able to invoice. How do I let him know this?

    I’m thinking:

    “Hi Ned, thanks for letting me know. At the moment I’m not able to provide invoices for the work that I do. I’m sorry if that inconveniences you and understand if you need to find someone else. Foreign Octopus.”

    Does anyone have any recommendations?

    (And again, I really don’t want to get into a discussion about tax. I just want to be able to say no to him in a professional manner.)

  170. Academia Or Nah?*

    How much is a reasonable percentage of your time to be assigned to “other duties” outside the scope of your position? My PD says 5% of my time should be “other duties as assigned” but realistically it’s 80%+ of my time during any given time period. I’m not sure if this is reasonable or something worth addressing with my supervisor/looking for a position more aligned with my goals.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s worth raising if you like the place otherwise. “I was hired to fix the trucks but I’m only doing that about one day a month now; instead I’m spending most of my time plunging the bathrooms and unplugging the drinking fountains. Do we see this job getting back to truck repair in the future or is the new distribution of duties a reflection of what the org needs from the position going forward?”

      1. Academia Or Nah?*

        Ah, this is the script I was looking for! Thank you! I’m worried about job hunting since my current duties are so misaligned with what I was hired to do (and my position title). I’m not sure the fight to get it back on track is worth it.

        1. fposte*

          Yup, and if they really need a plumber, you’d probably lose the fight. The earlier you find out the better for both sides.

  171. MC*

    Could I have some insight into a situation at work, please (and not so much judgement, if possible)? All of this is happening in a retail environment.

    A bit of a background: The manager is an adult woman who tends to be direct, rudely assertive, and have a loud, booming voice. I usually have no problems with loud, assertive women, and I would be even more anxious if this situation occurred with a loud, rudely assertive man. The coworker and I are not that way at all; we are actually the opposite, so there is an interpersonal component to this. The coworker and I are both women who do not look like the majority of our coworkers, to put it lightly.

    If this manager treats me unfairly because they had an incident with a coworker that looks a lot like me, is that retaliation?

    This has happened for the entire time I have been at my job. This manager acts aggressively toward the coworker and me, and we both get anxious every time we have to interact with the manager. The manager only speaks to us to criticize us (think not even greeting us as a social norm!) and fails to explain what is happening at the moment or about what is going on at work (e.g. if a truck is coming or if they’re going on break). We are only given short orders with minimum reasoning as the manager tries to avoid talking to us as much as they can.

    The coworker and I are the only ones who are treated in this manner. The manager is sociable with the rest of the coworkers.

    I tried to reconcile with the manager by asking, “How can I work better with you?” Instead, I was told about how I sound rude to them and how that was offensive, rude, and insubordinate and that I needed to change how I talked to people.

    I was never insubordinate, but insolent at most by making under-the-breath comments and reminding the targeted coworker to not do something I was told not to do in front of the manager, but in fear. I have learned from these mistakes, though, and they were made in response of the unfair interactions with my manager. I told my manager that I would work on these things. The day after, there were too many people at work and I got picked to go home two hours early for the second day in a row.

    My coworker and I remain scared of the manager, who has not changed their behaviors. Do I have any grounds for bringing this situation up to some higher-ups? What can I do besides putting my head down and focusing on my job?

    Thank you all in advance!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      You can 100% bring this situation to the higher-ups.

      I’ve worked retail before and I know the sort of environment you’re talking about. One of my worst memories from my time working at McDonald’s is walking into the storage room to find the store manager (male, mid-40s) red in the face from screaming at one of the shift managers (woman, very early-20s) who was in tears. The atmosphere of retail can breed this sort of behaviour, but it doesn’t mean that you need to tolerate it.

      I recommend drafting an email to the higher-ups (post it here if you’re worried about how it sounds to get feedback on it) and also brush off your CV. I get that moving to a new job may not be ideal, but it’s worth having a few applications sent in just in case the worst case scenario happens. But send that email to the higher-ups, list everything you’ve done here as clearly as you can (bullet points are great for this) and just be the reasonable, mature adult that your manager is failing to be.

      As for how to handle this, I can’t speak for you, but in a similar situation once where my shift manager was treating me badly, I just turned to them and said something to the effect of: “I don’t know what’s put you in a bad mood today but I’m not the person to take it out on.” I surprised myself with it at the time because I was 20 and didn’t know how to properly stand up for myself, but you can do it. People like your manager tend to be startled when people actually call them out on their BS. So far you’ve tried to manage the situation by changing yourself, but it’s not your behaviour that needs changing, it’s theirs. So if you feel up to it (and I get if you don’t) start refusing to be spoken to like that. If the manager gives you the cold shoulder when you ask them a question, tell them “I need this information to do my job”.

      Basically, act as though they’re not acting like a cruel child on a power trip. There are loads of great letters in the archives at dealing with conflicts at work, but if you only do one thing, let it be the email to the higher-ups.

      1. MC*

        Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply and for sharing your experiences! You have encouraged me to at least consider reporting this situation and added some perspective as to what may be going on behind the scenes.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        “I don’t know what’s put you in a bad mood today but I’m not the person to take it out on.”

        Excellent — thank you!

        How about “Have I said or done something to offend you?”

    2. WellRed*

      I agree you can bring this up since it’s a clear pattern. I do wonder what you mean by looking different. If it’s that you are old or fat and they are all young and thin that may be harder to get traction on then if you’re black and everyone else is white. Your boss sucks but I don’t think you have anything to lose

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t mention the commonality, lest they derail on “Manager isn’t -ist because I’m not -ist and I hired her,” but I would name the other colleague so TPTB know what’s up.

  172. Anonymously Exhausted*

    Just need to vent today.

    It’s been a rough week and I have a persistent cold that wants to get better but not go away completely. I’m so tired, stressed, and overwhelmed right now since I’m doing the jobs of several people on vacation in addition to my own work (with no thanks from Boss for doing so). I have SO much to do and I’m good at prioritizing, but as soon as I finish one thing three more appear. My desk is a disaster and it’s stressful. I need a break but only have 3 days off around the holidays, two of which will be spent visiting with family I only see once a year. I have vacation time, but being both the newest and youngest means I’m stuck at the bottom of the totem pole. Plus we’re a very small office and would have to get permission from the higher-ups to be closed on any days I’m not here to be in charge.

    This is all on top of the mental health issues I deal with year-round but that get worse in the winter/holiday season. Because of this I haven’t been eating and sleep as well or taking care of myself as much as I should. I feel like I’m on the edge of a burnout but can’t take the break I need.

      1. Anonymously Exhausted*

        I also use light therapy in the winter! I’ve even used it during other seasons when we’ve had long periods of rain or cloudiness. The combo of light therapy and regular sessions with my therapist usually helps a lot. It’s just a bit harder when you’re super busy and kind of sick.

        I’m sorry you’re in a windowless office! We only have windows on one side, and my desk is positioned so that a shelf blocks sunlight from reaching me.

    2. MC*

      I feel for you, Anonymously Exhausted! I’m not sure if I have any advice for you about your work, but I have some advice for a cold. Whenever I have a cold, I like drinking lemon tea for a sore throat and mint tea if I’m especially feeling sick. I drink both with enough sugar to make it a hot sweet tea and/or add honey, but that’s more of a preference. I also constantly take some pain medication (e.g. Advil, Tylenol, etc.) during the cold until I feel better.

      Feel better soon and be kind to yourself! I’ll send positive get-well-soon vibes your way :)

      1. Anonymously Exhausted.*

        Thank you, MC! I’ve been drinking lots of tea this week, either plain or with honey. Usually green or white tea during the day and something herbal in the evening.

        I’m already a big tea drinker so sometimes when I’m sick it feels like I’m about 50% tea. But it does help! As for work, I’m just glad that it’s the weekend I have two days to rest a bit.

  173. yala*

    So. This was kind of fun.
    Every year, on the last day before the holiday break (today), we have a small gathering in our area (about three or so departments) where we bring snacks and leftovers from the big staff party and just hang out and eat. Other departments drop by sometimes, it’s not a secret. We’re in cubicle land, so it’s pretty open to everyone. It’s nice.

    This year, I was the only one from my department (3+supervisor) who came.

    Because the rest of my department went and had their own private party in the office of someone from another department.

    Let me say that again. Our department consists of four people: a supervisor, myself, and my two coworkers. If it were just the coworkers, that would be one thing. But my SUPERVISOR and coworkers had their own private party, and didn’t even tell me. I know we don’t get along very well, and I’m already left out of going on lunches and breaks (after mentioning this once at a meeting with supervisor and grandboss, the new ruling was they wouldn’t Go Out Somewhere for lunch together–though they would still have lunch/breaks together, usually for longer than the allotted time–and of course, I was Welcome To Join Them–although no one ever comes to tell me when they are going on lunches or breaks or anything like that).

    But like. Wow.

    It kind of blows my mind on several levels that my supervisor thinks this is appropriate at all. Like, she could have at least come by and invited me. I probably wouldn’t have gone, because I know I’m not wanted, or I would have gone for a bit to try and make an effort. But it would have been a show of good faith on her part, as opposed to yet another show of exclusion.

    …seriously. how does she think this is ok? Is this ok? am I wrong here, or is this really inappropriate?

    1. Argh!*

      Thank you for posting this. I’m left out of a lot of things, and it’s good to know I’m not alone in being alone.

      Supposedly unintentionally being left out because someone forgot is okay, rather than being deliberately snubbed. Feeling hurt that you are such a nobody that you’re on nobody’s mind means you’re thin-skinned, sensitive, and immature. Also, people are not supposed to be thoughtful or considerate or loop in stakeholders when making important decisions, or even small decisions, that affect their jobs. Thoughtlessness is next to godliness. Or something.

      1. valentine*

        It’s inappropriate, but you can’t win. I don’t know why you want just the begrudged invitation. Does she evaluate you fairly and give you the raises you’ve earned? You’re at least working more hours (because less socializing with the clique), but probably also doing more work. Why aren’t you cutting bait?

        Your gathering sounds nice and I would rather be where you were than secreted away like schoolchildren breaking rules.

    2. Middle Manager*

      That seems like very poor supervision to me. I think you’re right, if your two co-workers want to have lunch as friends, it might be unkind to exclude the only other staff person in your unit, but ultimately it’s up to them. But your boss going at least gives it the appearance of a work event and that’s really uncool not to invite everyone then.

    3. PeteyKat*

      I’m sorry you were treated that way. Its not ok. It was very inappropriate for your supervisor to do that. Your supervisor is not a nice person. Try not to let it get to you. I know it’s easier said then done. I don’t actively hate on anyone or wish true harm but i do wish for minor inconveniences for them like audible gas at an inopportune moment, a flat tire, food stuck in their teeth all day, etc. Petty I know but sometimes that how I can get through the day after I’ve been treated less than kindly!

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I’m really sorry. Deliberate exclusion sucks. Double sucks when your own boss participates in it.

      I’m glad you at least got to go to the inter-departmental gathering…and your rude co-workers and boss missed out on that!

      Good luck dealing with this in 2020!

  174. Phoenix Programmer*

    Our company rolled out a new policy that all work from home must be planned.

    I don’t get this. The majority of my wfh is unplanned. I mainly use it to stay home when i have a cold but am going to work through it and don’t want to get others sick.

    (As an aside since the policy change i brought a terrible flu to the office and got a lot of guff for it. It was hard for me not to retort with – well you banned wfh when we are ill and we have no sick leave so this is what you get).

    I spoke to a manager, and she stated she finds it disruptive to not know if someone plans to work from home ahead of time.

    I really don’t see how not knowing that someone is not going to be in person when most communication is email anyway disrupts anyone. Especially for multi site locations where staff not in their office can mean anything from out sick, wfh, at another site.

    If they wanted a tracking calendar I would understand but this feels like an attack on wfh.

    1. Buttons*

      That is stupid. Part of the reason that WFH is so great is that people take less time off and take less sick days. I would ask her, “So next time I am sick I should just call in sick and not WFH then?” And stick to it.

    2. Going anonymous for this one 2019*

      People get so weird about WFH. Our company eliminated it for people who don’t travel. We need to “collaborate”…. except 95% of my projects are with people who work in different time zones. There was one point where I was supporting Australia and Belgium – nope I cannot make both those meetings in one day. I was told I could sign in after hours to conference with Australia from home. But I had to be onsite for Belgium the next morning. It’s NOT inspiring.
      Personally I think it’s because they don’t train people new to management how to judge metrics. And I have real simple metric folks — either my contribution is released in time for product launch (always so far) or it’s not. If it’s not, THEN start managing me by making me sit here. They get a lot less time from me since they took away my WFH because I lose so much energy to the commute.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      It really depends. My work has meetings that can be done by phone, but are easier face to face. Also, there can always be a sensitive issue brewing, so it can be helpful to know if a co worker will be in to discuss it.

      So I have understood why bosses want warning, but mine have also always been fine with surprise wfh due to surprise circumstances, like a transit meltdown.

    4. Qwerty*

      How far in advance does it need to be planned? If you realize the day before that you are coming down with a cold or that a snowstorm is rolling in, can you add yourself to the schedule or put in a last minute request?

      Usually when I’ve dealt with companies that required scheduling WFH days, the goal was for people to stick to a consistent schedule so it was less of a guessing game everyday on who was going to be in the office. Especially if sometimes a manager wants/needs to have in person meetings with a group of people. So Joe might WFH every Monday and Fergus might WFH every Friday. Or if you make an appointment for the cable guy to stop by next Tuesday, you put your WFH day on the schedule when you find out instead of sending out a notification the day of.

      BUT – true unpredictable items like illness and extreme weather were always exemptions to this rule. Sometimes managers appreciated a heads up the day before, some places it meant using an unscheduled day meant giving up your regularly scheduled WFH day, but they usually accepted that life happens as long as no one is abusing the leniency.

      My guess for the change would be that your boss was having a harder time tracking down where people were and if they were working that day. Either because there are many reasons for people not be in their office (as your listed) or because someone(s) was abusing the flexibility or people were just being inconsistent. Just because you only use WFH for when you are sick doesn’t mean that’s how everyone else was doing it.

      If you can have the conversation calmly, your flu is a great opening to revisit the conversation! “Jane, things clearly didn’t go well a few weeks ago when I came to the office while under the weather. In the future, is there a way to request for unscheduled working from home in these situations so we can minimize germs in the office?” Utilize AAM’s advice of using a tone that implies “of course” she’ll agree.

    5. Mediamaven*

      Someone has likely abused the policy so they are trying to put some guardrails around it. You should just TB with your boss.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          I’m guessing Touch Base.

          Though I imagine when Phoenix Programmer Touches Base with his/her boss, mentioning “TB” while discussing the sickness could make the boss much more amenable to WFH.

  175. Librarian Ish*

    People who have coded qualitative data…any tips? Specifically for the actual processing of the data. I’ve got a spreadsheet and I’m trucking along but I just feel this could be so much tidier. I’m not a stats person, just a librarian who inherited a survey and has been asked to code the qualitative data. Thanks in advance!

    1. merp*

      I could be wrong but I swear there was a session that included this at ARL’s assessment conference in 2018. All of those papers were supposed to be put online if they are any help!

      1. merp*

        Oh, and a follow-up thought – it’s not at all abnormal (in my experience, at least) to be thinking “this could be neater somehow” when doing data cleanup. It’s just a messy thing to do sometimes! But I do hope you find some strategies to make it go faster for you. Grouping comments like MC suggests helps, as well as clarifying as much as you can the questions that higher-ups (or whoever) may be asking of the data. Good luck!

        1. Librarian Ish*

          That’s one of the most comforting things I’ve been told so far – I’ve been blaming the disorder on my incompetence, so knowing that it’s the same for most people is such a relief :)

    2. MC*

      It’s been a while since I’ve been involved in stats, but I can try to help. What kind of data do you have?

      For now, questions about gender, yes or no questions, and the like can be coded with numbers (e.g. yes could be 1 and no could be 2). If there are questions asking for comments, the comments can be grouped and coded. For instance, if a bunch of comments talk about library hours, they can be coded as library hours. Comments about, say, checking out can be put in their own category, and later on, you could say that x comments are about one thing or another.

      I hope this helps a little. :)

      1. Librarian Ish*

        That does help, thanks! I’m mostly trying to figure out what the best way to organize the spreadsheet. I’ve got ~500 responses ranging in length from a couple words to a couple paragraphs. Right now I’ve got them in a column on the spreadsheet (1 response per row) and I have a bunch of columns next to it with the themes I’m coming up with as I go. I put a 1 in each column that matches the theme of the response, and it’s summing up the number of 1’s in each category.

        That may be the best way to organize it, I’ve heard from several people that coding qualitative data is just messy. But I can dream :)

        1. Another Academic Librarian*

          I’ve done coding for open-text responses to LibQual surveys, and what you’re describing sounds like the system I came up with too!

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That’s how I do it. I also advocate for the more granular, the better, because you can always combine but it’s much more of a pain to separate.

        3. OtterB*

          This is the way I do it also. I’ve also found it helps to make a pass through reading all the comments before I begin creating categories, since that will give me a better idea of the level of detail I want to use in my coding scheme (e.g. do I want one for comments on library hours overall, or do I want one for weekday closing times and one for weekend hours). As a rule of thumb, I’ll code at the lower level of detail unless it gets ridiculous, because you can always aggregate things later but you can’t break them out without going back through all the comments.

      2. Shiny*

        A bunch of replies have talked about coding qualitative data and stats–that’s confusing to me, because generally with qualitative data, it’s not best practice to turn it into numerical data (unless you’re maybe talking about a survey of some kind and you’re doing data entry from the survey questionnaire?).

        If you’re doing true qualitative analysis, it may be worth it to spring for a brief license for dedoose. It’s not as good as NVIVO or Atlas.ti but it’s much cheaper and should be helpful.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          That’s interesting. My understanding (from someone who has a PhD in social science) is that qualitative data should be coded.

          Maybe this is the point of confusion: What the replies are suggesting is saving space/time/errors by making text into a code (pretty common in relational databases). So, instead of recording “yes”, it would recorded in the database as “1” and instead of “no” it would be recorded as “2.”

          It’s not that we analyze them as “1+1+1…” but “How many 1’s are there? How many 2’s?”

    3. Anon Here*

      It all depends on the type of data and its intended purpose(s). Other commenters have offered good responses.

      I gather, from reading everything, that you have a spreadsheet of 500 survey responses and you want to assign numerical codes to everything? What happens next?

      And that your current challenge is to organize the spreadsheet? What challenges are you facing there? I envision rows (or columns) for each question and the opposite for each survey, with the surveys being given numbers. Is that how it’s set up?

  176. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

    Has anyone ever given notice by email? I need to give notice next week and my boss will be on vacation–if I give it now, I won’t be able to take PTO I have planned for next week, also.

    1. Buttons*

      Will they be checking email? If not it needs to go to them and their boss or HR. Someone needs to see it that day. Email is fine for most companies, it depends on the culture and expectations there.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      I once gave my notice when my boss was on vacation. It was a little bit different because my manager worked across the country, so it would have been via phone call either way. I knew she checked emails regularly, so I actually emailed her apologizing for interrupting her vacation, but asking if we could have a phone call regarding something time sensitive. If your boss checks his email regularly, I would email him apologizing for the inconvenience (of interrupting his vacation), but that you would like to have something important to discuss with him, and if he would be available for a quick call. I personally think that’s better than outright emailing a resignation, but others can correct me if they disagree with this approach.

      Alternatively, does your boss have a boss that you could give notice to?

      1. SarahKay*

        I’d rather be told outright in the email; that way I get to make the choice of whether I want the disruption of a phone call.
        I’d suggest just giving your notice, and then add a sentence saying something like “Of course I’m available if you want to call me to discuss, but I don’t want to disrupt your vacation more than I have to”.

  177. AcctingMgr*

    I have something I’m not quite sure how to address. I took a brand new management position at a company, overseeing a team of 5 and directly reporting to the VP, “Khaleesi”. Unfortunately, due to space and since this is a new position, my whole team and Khaleesi sit near each other (5 cubicles next to each other as well as Khaleesi’s office which is in view of all of the cubicles. I was given a desk on the other side of the floor next to a completely different department since there are no available cubicles near mine. I’ve been in this position for about 6 months and I feel that this is beginning to affect my relationship with my team. I can slightly hear conversations but when topics come up that typically would be addressed by a manager, they seem to end up being handled by the VP since she is so close. I feel like rather than managing the team, I’m left doing smaller projects that have nothing to do with managing/interacting with the team I am managing. In addition, I feel I don’t really “know” my team since they interact all the time everyday and I’m on the other side of the floor. I do stop by to say hi and have small discussions but it’s just.. different. Is there anything I can be doing to set the tone? Build a relationship with them?

    1. Buttons*

      Tell your VP about what you are experience. I would hate for you to get a poor review for not doing this part of your job.
      Hopefully your VP will figures out a way to have you with your team. Have a meeting with your whole team and let them know they need to come to you first. Even if it is less convenient.

      1. valentine*

        Switch with one of your reports?

        Is there room in each area if the departments switched spaces? Anywhere else in the building that would make sense? Anywhere Khaleesi can go and you can have her office?

  178. Nessun*

    In January we have a meeting in Madrid – it’s gonna be rather a new group, planning stuff for the future. I’m excited for how it will go, excited to travel, and worried that I will fall on my face in terms of logistics and planning somehow. I want to represent my boss well, and we’ll both be present – I feel a LOT of pressure to get this right, since it’s the first of many meetings with these people and they are all high level individuals. Today I got an email from the local admin in the Madrid office saying that the dinner we’ve planned for the day before should be at 8 pm because restaurants don’t have dinner sittings at 6 pm (as we’d originally scheduled). I’m low-key freaking out that there’s some other cultural item or random piece of info I’m just completely unaware of…and I’m off on holiday now until the 2nd of January. I’m trying not to worry too much, and hope that everything I have to do falls into place when I go back to work – I’ll have less than 2 weeks before I travel. I’m wavering between NewOpportunity! and WhatHaveIGotMyselfInto! territory. Yikes!!

    1. JustaTech*

      If you know you’re going to be thinking about it over the holiday break, maybe get a guide book or two on Spain and Madrid. The good ones will have things like “everyone in Spain eats a late dinner” or “these parts of Spain still respect the siesta, so things will be closed for two hours in the afternoon”.

      Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        I don’t know about Madrid, but in the South, lunch at home/siesta is 2-5pm and everything closes except expats. At home, coffee/biscuits (don’t recall what it’s called) is at 5:00. You might be able to go to a bar then and have a meal, unless you do need this to be formal. Dinner is at 10pm, so their 8:00 is your 6:00: early dinner.

    4. A Person*

      I work with a team in Madrid and so far this is 100% the biggest cultural difference – they just eat dinner REALLY late there. Even though our office doesn’t do a “siesta” they still keep the late dinner. You may want to double check other meals if that will matter for you (I seem to recall that they may have some weirdness around breakfast too.)

  179. JustaTech*

    Question: how do I address someone who is acting as a project manager but doing a terrible job?

    Background: I’m on a multi-site, multi-department project where I’m one of the technical experts. The project has a project manager (Bob) who seemed to be doing project manager things for the first couple of months (arrange meetings, assign tasks, maintain the shared documents, create a timeline, etc). But then we started working on selecting an outside vendor and all of the sudden the junior sourcing person on the project (Carl) has started acting as a project manager.

    The problem is that Carl is not very good at this. He is late to *every* meeting with vendors (so the rest of the team and the vendor are sitting around on a conference call attempting to make small talk), he sets up meetings without telling anyone what they’re about, so we have to spend a lot of time going “huh?, what?” in meetings with vendors, and he’s failed to get vital documents in a timely manner, and when he does get them he forgets to share them with the team, so we can’t answer the vendor’s questions.

    I’ve spoken to my boss about this, and his response was that I should “send a note”. To whom? Carl? Bob? The only other thing I can think to do is to reach out to the project head (who is new-ish because the previous project head had to go overseas), but that person (Fred) has been in all these meetings where Carl is late and doesn’t have the important information. Do I have to tell him the obvious?

    Compounding all this is that I get the impression that both Carl and Bob are pretty overworked, and also Carl’s been sick for the past week or two (his emails are coherent, but only just).

    So, Carl is a missing stair. Do I just try to work around him with the vendors (seems like a terrible idea), do I bring it up to Fred directly in the hopes that Fred can talk to Carl’s manager, or do I just keep trying to work around Carl?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, is your boss in the chain of command for the project management folks? It sounds like you’re in separate lanes, so maybe you’re boss was (poorly) communicating he can’t do anything. You could go back and talk to him about it.

      Second, no, don’t just try to work around Carl. Talk to Fred (the project head) and Bob (the project manager) at the same time. Explain why this is impacting your work and the vendor’s impressions of your team. Come at it from a collaborative, “Could you help me understand why Carl is in charge of project management? Can we develop a solution, since this is negatively impacting the project?”

  180. EOY went weird*

    I have a now former supervisor (NFS) who is probably the best boss I’ve ever had. In very legitimate ways. There’s a situation I can’t quite decide how to handle, and I’m hoping the AAM community can help.

    During my EOY review thing, I had a half conversation with grandboss (GB). He made an offhand comment about how now that I was under new boss, maybe things would go more smoothly, etc. I was a bit taken aback, but this past year involved a very large project that was supposed to be “simple” that…wasn’t. For a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with NFS. I would have thought GB knew since…he’s GB? Anywho.

    Fast forward to today
    I found out from a former teammate that NFS was reamed out during her review by GB for supposed failures with the project. Not using a program they had 1 meeting about (that she wasn’t in) and they were never told to use. Not documenting certain things (whichhhh maybe?). She was apologizing to my former team for failing them, and she apparently started getting emotional, which isn’t like her. GB told NFS that multiple people told him how much better things are now that she’s not running the project. Grossly untrue. Since she decided to take a step back, it has taken 4.5 people to fill the role she was doing.

    My now former team and I are cobbling together a gift for her (against AAM rules, but). Is it stupid? to talk to GB about how some of the things she’s being accused of are really not true? My fight for the underdog feelings are in full force right now.

    1. Sherm*

      I personally would stay out of it. 1) If GB is determined not to like NFS, there’s not much you can do about it. 2) He might wonder how you know all this and will be upset that word leaked out. 3) If he can’t see the message in the fact that it has taken 4.5 people to fill her role, then nothing you can say will sway him.

  181. Breathing too hard*

    2 employees with adjacent cubicles – Employee A came to me asking me to move her desk becasue Employee B complained to her about how she was breathing, so she wanted to moved away from Employee B. I asked Employee B what happened and B said she talked to A becasue B felt A was in breathing distress. Then it also comes out that they are bothered that the other speak in their (different) languages on the phone. Employee B also wants to stay on the side of the building that has the windows. I have an empty space because of a vacancy (that is being filled) but no matter where I put the other person, I am sure they will still hear each other becasue it’s not that big a space! Headphones are ok and encouraged, and they both wear them. Both have been working together for 8-9 years. This kind of stuff just drives me bonkers.

    1. montescristo1985*

      So I am a brand new baby manager and don’t know a lot, but….is this really a manager problem? Beyond telling them they have to deal? (not in those words).

      1. valentine*

        If employee A is happy to move to the dark side, let her. Then you can say you gave them what they wanted.

        They need to shut up about the languages, though.

    2. WellRed*

      But if you can move one, it could alleviate the breathing complaint? As far as the languages complaint, if those are personal calls tell them to take them elsewhere; if it’s for work, they need to deal (and maybe do some reflection on latent racism).

    3. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Then it also comes out that they are bothered that the other speak in their (different) languages on the phone.

      Seriously?

      Tell them to go take a long walk off a short pier. What language someone uses while talking with someone else is absolutely none of anyone else’s business.

      PS: If personal calls (whether in English or any other language) are an issue — depending on company policy, of course — address that.

  182. Torn*

    I’m in a position where I think I may need to jump ship at work. I found two open positions at a local college I’ve been hoping to work at, but I’m not sure which I should go for:

    Position A: A high-level position that I’m about 75% qualified for according to the requirements in the ad. I think I could do it, but it would be a jump for me (e.g. I’m currently managing about 7 Llama Care Classes, and this would jump to managing more than 150). There’s a good chance there are more qualified candidates out there.

    Position B: A low-level, 12-month position that is actually supervised by Position A, working on just one aspect of the portfolio. I’m pretty overqualified based on the requirements in the ad and presumably I’d have a much better chance of getting it. It would probably be boring, but it would get me into the system and put me in a better position to apply for something else internally when the 12-month term ends.

    Thoughts? My husband wants me to stretch and go for Position A, but I’m thinking Position B would be better based on my fears about where things are headed with my current workplace.

    1. merp*

      If they’re so closely related, I wonder if you applied for one and they liked you better for the other, they may tell you that? I don’t know if that’s helpful, though, not a thing you can count on.

    2. Middle Manager*

      I’d go for the stretch personally, but acknowledge that’s a risk and the job your overqualified for is a much safer bet. Maybe it just depends on how much risk you can tolerate. How certain are you that you might need something new soon? How long can you tolerate financially being without something if that happens quickly?

    3. Alianora*

      I’d apply for position a. 75% of the listed qualifications is pretty good, and if your really that overqualified for position b, I actually think your chances of getting it are worse. When I’ve looked at candidates, the ones who are very overqualified kinda get the sideye.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Especially since the one you’re overqualified for is a 12-month position. Not a hiring manager, but I have been part of the hiring process, and that combination would make me very wary.

    4. Auntie Social*

      Go for the stretch. If they don’t see you in it, they’ll say “you don’t quite have the requirements but we have a junior position. . . .”

  183. Spills*

    This will probably get buried but need to get this off my chest as it’s been weighing on me a lot lately with end of year approaching. We are hiring for a new role to backfill my role, as I’ll be getting a long-awaited promotion and I wish I could be excited about it, but also feeling really discouraged and taken advantage of.

    I have raised concerns about my workload for several years now, as our team and production have increased very quickly even in the first year that I started, and I have been burned out since almost the very beginning – think regular 12 hour days, developing anxiety, answering emails around the clock, etc. After my first year, I had tried to discuss this with my boss and suggesting that we need to hire additional support, as well as indicating my interest in moving into more of a sales-focused role, and we’ve been discussing this for two years now with her saying she is here for me but not taking any action.

    Finally earlier this year during my mid-year review, she said that they were going to be creating a position for me and hiring someone to replace me so that I could be promoted into a sales role, vs client services that I am doing now. I was super excited to finally put the wheels in motion and get some support with a new team member. To start the process my boss had me doing a lot of things such as writing both my current and my new roles’ job descriptions, putting together an entire sales plan, etc which I got all sent over to her….and then crickets.

    That was back in June, and she let me know that it still needed to go through final approvals with our leadership so they weren’t sure how long it would take. Then come budget time, it got pushed again until after budget was approved in October. Then it took another month or so for HR to review the job descriptions and even longer for the jobs to be posted online – I think they were finally posted in November. I was given a target “start date” of December 15th for my new role, as they anticipated we would have hired someone by that time. That date has come and gone, and we have had only two initial interviews with very underqualified people – there is no hope in sight of a potential offer to a candidate.

    We received a few resumes for people who would have been a great fit, but I recently found out that none of them moved forward in the process as we were way off on salary. That alone makes me feel terrible and undervalued, as I took a lateral move to get into this role because it was a new industry for me, which they knew, and have not received any increase in salary since then beyond cost of living even though my role has consistently exceeded expectations and brought in anywhere from $400-$600K additional in revenue per year.

    The lack of candidates and the mismatch on salary make me worry that we will never find a good fit for this role and I’ll be stuck in this limbo forever. It doesn’t help that I am miserable in my current role and have been for three years and desperately want/need a change and some support. The role has grown significantly in scope since I took it, and it’s taken over my entire life – I really need the help and a second body to try to get some semblance of work/life balance back.

    On top of that all, we have not discussed salary for my new role – my boss keeps pushing it off and saying we will have a meeting with HR and her to discuss, but nothing yet. I just know they will try to screw me on it as well, but at least I feel like I’m in a better position to negotiate than ever before.

    All in all what once felt positive and like I was finally being heard and supported has now left me feeling frustrated and stuck.

    1. WellRed*

      If your boss wanted to, she could promote you and let your old position go infilled for now, no? Dust off your resume and see what’s out there.

    2. Not All*

      If the only people applying for your job are less qualified but expect more pay, it sounds like you need to join their ranks. It’s a pain, and there may be something incredibly & unusually desirable about your company that you didn’t mention, but it sounds like you’d get more pay for less misery at a different company!

  184. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Office-party potluck bingo thread!
    YES… I saw cheap-ass rolls.
    YES… We ran out of utensils.
    YES… We ran out of caffeinated soda.
    YES… Someone put ice cream on the table instead of in the ice bucket.
    YES… We had people come in from other departments without contributing.
    So, that’s my bingo.
    But on the plus side? Vegetarian options galore including bagels, ziti, and potato samosas, and meatless chili. Separated from the meaty dishes to minimize spoon-swaps. Commercially prepared pizza for people who are dubious about home kitchens. Things that were cold had an ice bucket. (Not that it was remembered 100% but that’s another matter.) Everything hot was actually hot — crockpots, instantpots, or sterno. Speaking of hot, this time the salsa was accurately labelled hot/medium/mild. (So I’m right about which now-retired manager had the unrealistic concept of what was hot…. 2 years ago the “medium” was insanely hot for me, and I *grow* Thai hot peppers.) Only problem this year is that people didn’t stick around –everyone mostly headed off to their own units.
    How about yours?

    1. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Petition to create an AAM-branded “Holiday Office Party Bingo”! We can even have different editions: The Good, The Bad, and the Awkward.

      I didn’t go to my office’s party this year since I wasn’t feeling well, but it sounded like a good time was had by all. There were even Hawaiian rolls put out with the leftover cookies the next day! I’m glad your office party was an overall success, I’m sure the tasty vegetarian options were much appreciated by the non-meat-eaters!

  185. we're basically gods*

    Just a vent: My company is a teensy startup, so our office is a single room in a coworking space. We have no control over the thermostat.
    IT IS. SO COLD.
    I’m still wearing my winter coat, even though I’ve been inside for a while, I put on my compression gloves for warmth, and my toes are FREEZING. I’ve heard rumors that they’re having issues with the heater but…holy moly. This is ridiculous.
    I can’t wait for the day to be over just so I can go be not freezing for a moment.

    1. Lets not name names*

      There are laws about workplace environments and if they’re not able to provide an adequate one you are well within your rights to work from home (assuming that’s a possibility given the co-working arrangement.)

    3. Not All*

      I bought an electric lap rug (electric blanket but smaller) for my office that is ALWAYS freezing since we’re not supposed to have space heaters. Best $30 I’ve spent on Amazon!

    4. Middle Manager*

      I say get a space heater or electric blanket. If anyone complains, say the alternative is that you’ll need to work from home until the heating is fixed.

  186. Sleepy*

    Curious for people’s thoughts: Do I owe it to a job candidate to reveal information about the job that could make the person less likely to take the job?

    We are looking for someone to manage a branch which is struggling financially (it’s actually trending upward, but was really mismanaged back in the day and we’re still reaping the repercussions). We have a top candidate who seems to understand, in the big picture, that the margins are thin, but he hasn’t asked a lot of direct questions about the finances. He asks vague, big-picture questions. E.g. “Are things on track?” I was trying to be upbeat in my answers (e.g. emphasizing that due to holiday sales, we’ll have a lot more cash on hand by the time he starts, but not mentioning that summer is a pretty thin time and that money needs to stretch pretty far).

    I didn’t intend to mislead him, but he sounded cheerier than I expected in his responses to me and that makes me think that he took away a rosier picture than I intended to paint. Ethically, should I reach out to him to provide more details?

    We really don’t have any other candidates for this position, unfortunately, which I think subconsciously made me want to sell him on the position a bit. But we’ll all end up hurting in the end if he takes it and then walks away quickly…

    1. irene adler*

      You should make the situation clear to the candidate. For the very reason you stated.
      Might ask him how he would handle managing a branch which is “struggling financially” and give some details. Then discuss his responses.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Even if you didn’t owe it to him, you owe it to *you*. Like you said, anything that makes him take the job and then quickly leave it is going to hurt *you* too.

    3. Qwerty*

      You need to disclose this. He asked if things were on track and you intentionally misled him just because he didn’t specifically ask about the exact problem you are having. The candidate started broad, as there are many reasons to be off track besides finances (employees need a lot of training, or there is is a lot of turnover, etc). He thinks the branch is doing fine, so he’d be walking in very different expectations about this job than what it entails. How do you expect him to trust you if he were to start and then find out that things are very much not on track?

      When interviewing for this position, you should be looking for someone who can and is willing to handle the situation and put in the work to improve the branch’s situation. You can’t do that without explaining that there are financial struggles. If this candidate isn’t interested in turning around the branch, then this isn’t a good fit for either of you.

    4. Fikly*

      Yes.

      But more practically, you also owe it to yourself, because not revealing that information could very likely end up in an employee who ends up leaving (who would have never accepted) and now you just have to go through the process again.

    5. Sleepy*

      Thanks for the reality check, everyone. Everyone who commented is absolutely right that it’s better for everyone to provide more of a reality check to the candidate. I spoke with the person who is responsible for the next interview and she agreed to provide more details as part of the next round of conversations.

  187. LGC*

    Okay so – one of my employees just gave me a present. I feel pretty awkward about it. Help! And it’s not something I can just share with the office.

    (Like, I know I shouldn’t give it back. And – okay, yeah, I participated in the Secret Santa but like that’s the Secret Santa and I just told everyone there was a $15 limit.)

  188. Augusta Sugarbean*

    Are personal business cards dorky? I need to start trying to network and I don’t have a real business card for my job. (I’m getting laid off in any case so I couldn’t use them even if I had them.) I gave my email to someone last night and felt silly writing it on a Post-It.

    2. Anon Here*

      Not dorky at all. Just list your profession(s) as your title and include a link to any relevant web presence(s). For examples, look at business cards from anyone who is self-employed or freelancing. It’s a similar template.

    4. Bananatiel*

      Not at all! That having been said, I’d stick to something simple and straightforward in terms of copy/design. It definitely could be dorky if the design was odd or something like that :)

    5. Coverage Associate*

      I actually like having a truly personal card. It comes in handy for things like signing up for store loyalty programs. Rather than have to recite all my information, I just give them a card. I have also put them in wedding gifts and cards I brought to receptions, where I wasn’t sure the couple had our full contact information.

  189. Watch Your Words*

    How casual is it okay to be with clients/potential clients? I thought business conversations should have a certain tone, but some people seem to disagree with me.

    We’re in property management, both commercial and residential properties.

    One of the managers, in speaking to a prospective tenant who kept putting off the “move-in” date, said that they could get their deposit back if they had decided they could not afford the rent.

    In a conversation with another tenant who has having electrical power issues, another manager asked the tenant if it was an issue of them paying their utility bill. When I questioned the dialogue, the manager responded that their relationship with the tenant was such that that kind of speech was acceptable.

    I feel both of these conversations could have been better refined, but they’re not my accounts. Just wanted to get others’ opinions.

    1. Natalie*

      IME residential property management can get a bit casual with tenants because the tenants are not business people and they aren’t approaching the conversation as a business one.

      That aside, I don’t read either of those examples as particularly casual. They’re both relevant questions to the situation at hand. Can you articulate a bit more what felt overly casual about them?

      1. Watch Your Words*

        In the first case, the prospective tenant never said they wanted out of the lease. They had contacted the manager to touch base. The property manager is the one who outright said “if you can’t afford it, we’ll give you your money back”. It annoyed the person to the point that they completely changed their mind and took the manager up on their offer.

        In the second situation, it turned out to be a malfunction with a component in the electrical system. There was nothing to indicate that the tenant had not paid a utility bill. When the manager walked to the tenant through all the steps to get the power back on (flip breakers, etc.) and nothing worked, the manager asked the tenant if they had paid their utility bill. Based on how the conversation was relayed to me, it wasn’t said in jest.

        1. Natalie*

          Eh, the first sounds mildly presumptuous but it seems like the property manager got their comeuppance, they lost their client.

          If someone’s electricity isn’t working even after normal resetting procedures it seems perfectly reasonable to ask them if their account is current. It’s certainly information you should get before you call a contractor. There are ways to ask rudely and ways to ask politely, but the simple fact of asking isn’t casual. Your tenants exchange money for living space, nobody benefits if you’re standing on ceremony when questions about money come up.

          1. Watch Your Words*

            I think what I’m getting at is things could have been phrased better.

            Instead of asking if everything was okay between the tenant and the utility company it came out as “this better not be because you didn’t pay your bill”.

            I have had many clients whom I’ve been friendly with over the years (both in this industry and in others). We’ve talked about everything from what we’ve had for dinner the night before to how the kids and grandkids are doing, or their favorite dentist. I believe the friendliness goes a long way towards building on that relationship. However, I’ve always been on the conservative side of what is said regarding actual business conversations.

            I had an incident once (when I was new to this industry) when a commercial tenant moved out; things were left in disarray, broken, in need of major repairs. Plus, the tenant was still moving stuff out after the lease end date. The deposit was not returned (in order to cover the cost of repairs). The tenant was angry and voiced their anger in writing. I wanted to take the high road and simply point out, detail by detail, everything that the tenant did that was in violation of the lease. My manager, on the other hand, wanted me to criticize the tenant’s management style and business practices.

            I appreciate your input. That’s why I put up the question…just trying to get a different viewpoint.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          In the first case, you know that the prospective tenant accepted the property manager’s offer…but how do you know it was out of annoyance?

          The property manager — who might have had a better handle on the situation than you did — could have suspected the prospective tenant may not be able to afford the rent but wasn’t saying so. People tend to beat around the bush when money is involved — especially if they can’t afford something. If so, the property manager may have wanted to let the prospective tenant feel safe about backing out of the lease.

          Same goes for the second case — the other manager may have needed to get down to brass tacks and see if money was an issue. Depending on the clientele, non-payment of a bill could have been common enough to be worth exploring before doing potentially costly unnecessary repairs.

  190. Jadelyn*

    I could really use some outside perspective on whether I’m at fault for a colleague being let go after I talked to a manager about a situation involving him, because I’m really upset still and frustrated.

    We have a bullying situation in my department. The bully, Cersei, is a manager, hired by a close friend of hers who was our department director, Wakeen. We reorganized and Cersei started reporting to a different director at another location, but her bestie Wakeen was still the only local director-level person in our department so there was still implied authority there.

    The problem is that several people went to Wakeen independently of each other to complain about Cersei’s behavior. His response to everyone was that they needed to “work it out” with her, with occasional guilt-tripping about how if the team at our location couldn’t get past this and “come together” as a team he was going to be the one that got fired over it.

    But when someone is determined to be a bully, you can’t just “work it out”. There was an Incident when someone finally stood up to Cersei, which she then used her management position to twist things and make it look like it was the other person’s fault and everyone was going to believe her because it was a manager’s word against a supposedly insubordinate employee’s word. I couldn’t let that happen, so I privately went and spoke to the top department head about the situation and gave my perspective as well.

    That was a few months ago, and I just spoke with Wakeen this week and he let me know privately that he’s been asked to resign. And I mean I specifically said to the department head that the real problem was Cersei, the only issue with Wakeen was he wasn’t stepping in to rein her in and I felt like their friendship was interfering with his objectivity, but other than that he’s great at his role. But Cersei is still here, facing no consequences that I can see, and her behavior got slightly better for a bit but is getting worse again, while Wakeen has been asked to leave. I’m so frustrated with this, and I feel guilty for talking to the dept head because Wakeen is someone I regard as a mentor and friend, and I feel like I contributed to getting him pushed out.

    I keep telling myself that if anyone else told me this story, I’d tell them they didn’t get him fired, his own actions got him fired. But I still feel like I’ve betrayed someone I really look up to and owe a great deal of my current status and education to.

    But on the other hand I couldn’t not say something and just let Cersei get away with it. Rock and a hard place.

    Did I do the right thing?

    1. annony*

      Wakeen failed at a large part of his job because he decided his friendship with Cersei was more important. You also indicate that he knew his job was on the line. If anything, he betrayed your entire team by leaving Cersei unchecked.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thank you. I hadn’t thought of it that way but you’re right, he obviously knew the situation with Cersei reflected on him and he was going to face consequences, and he still chose not to act.

    3. irene adler*

      Yes. And thank you for doing this.

      Everyone involved is an adult so they knew that their actions or lack of action would come back later to bite them. Don’t take on guilt that isn’t yours.

    4. Qwerty*

      Think about all the letters AAM gets where the response is along the lines of “You don’t have a [topic] problem, you have a manager problem”.

      Wakeen knew about and refused to manage the situation, both when Cersei reported to him and when he was running the office. He knew that he would get fired if he didn’t get the situation under control and instead of working with Cersei to improve the dynamic, he decided it would be better to let people be bullied. That makes him culpable. You did not betray him – he betrayed you and your team.

      You don’t actually know that there are no consequences for Cersei. What goes on between her manager and her is private. They may be seeing if removing Wakeen improves the situation, she might be getting more coaching by her manager, or she might be on probation. Whatever the reaction is, it is unlikely that they will share it with Cersei’s team. Just as you probably wouldn’t want it broadcasted around if one day you were disciplined.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thank you – I agree that what Wakeen did (or didn’t do) is actually pretty serious, I think I just wanted to blame it solely on Cersei because I do like Wakeen and enjoy working with him.

        The fact that we’re all in HR makes the privacy of disciplinary actions a bit different than on most teams – I know she’s received some coaching, we don’t do formal probation, but to me it’s the fact that her behavior hasn’t really changed that’s worrisome. I’d expect, if she were facing real consequences, that her behavior would’ve changed at least somewhat. I guess we’ll see as time goes on.

    5. WellRed*

      Wakeen handled this very badly, from hiring a friend to letting her bully others to trying to make employees feel guilty he might lose his job. It’s also possible Cersei is being dealt with.

    6. Sherm*

      Totally did the right thing. You may have prevented Supposedly Insubordinate Employee from getting fired/severely disciplined. Think about how you would have felt if you had said nothing and that employee went out the door. I commend you for speaking up against bullying. Things won’t change unless people do so.

    7. Gumby*

      Yes. Wakeen’s initial “get along or I’m gonna be the one fired” was extremely inappropriate to say to you and blatantly manipulative. Also, if he already knew that then:
      * he already knew there is some sort of weird set up where managers bear a disproportionate share of blame for their subordinates (not that he has no share, but it’s odd that he seems to have 100% of it while Cersei bears 0%) in which case why did he not try to more actively resolve the situation? Or
      * he was already on notice for some other reason (past failure to effectively manage, other problems and in a ‘if one more thing comes up’ situation, etc.) in which case… why did he not try to more actively resolve the situation?

  191. Lets not name names*

    Today is my last day at a job I’ve been trying to leave for about a year! This week I was informed that despite my notice extending into a holiday break when the company would be closed, they were making my final pay period effective today, which means I wouldn’t have any income over the 2 week holiday break (for which everyone is off.) I was upset, but honestly it was consistent and I half expected it. However, I decided I had nothing to lose by being honest and wrote to the owners asking, in light of my years of work, all with stellar annual reviews, and having worked the entirety of 2019, with some major accomplishments that benefited the company, I had hoped I earned a final pay period through the holiday break. I kept it friendly and professional, but direct, outlined all the wrap up work I’ve done that covers them into 2020, and got a response that they were considering it and would let me know. Even that is more than I expected, and I feel heard and proud for standing up for myself. The CFO even told me he wished I had brought it up with him first so he could help me in advance and would do what he could to advocate for it. Live and learn! Happy holidays!

    1. CatCat*

      Great job advocating for yourself!

      Since they ended your job early and did not pay you through your notice period, you could consider filing for unemployment benefits. Where I live, there’s a one week waiting period, but something like this would qualify for benefits in the second week.

  192. Friday dilemma*

    I have a new colleague who was hired a few months ago. We are equal in rank and have roughly the same years’ experience, but the organization has designated me as her “mentor.” This is usually a formality! I’m supposed to review some of her work and provide suggestions as well as serving as a resource for her. However, there have been problems and she is essentially on a PIP. Now she has asked me to meet for lunch on a weekend “to talk.” I am not sure what to expect – possibly a charm initiative to try and build an out of work relationship, maybe a gripe session, maybe something else. Her interpersonal manner has always been friendly and warm. I plan to be kind but remain professional and resist any attempts to “split”. Any other suggestions?

    1. annony*

      If you are meant to provide suggestions as well as serve as a resource for her, that may be all she is looking for. I think you should be prepared to give advice for what she should be doing differently to succeed at the job.

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t meet with her outside of work. Let it be a work lunch. Or meet with her formally in a conference room, and be wary of her blaming her PIP failure on you for giving her conflicting advice.

  193. Eponymous*

    Venting today.

    Ranch hands in my department use our llama inspection checklist, which differs significantly from the other department’s horse inspection checklist. The other department has upgraded to new livestock inspection software, and since the switchover we’ve had a bunch of problems getting our llama inspections entered into the software because our checklists are lacking, to say the least, and some of our ranch hands don’t fill them out correctly on top of that.

    I took the horse inspection checklist and modified it to follow our llama inspecting process. A few ranch hands tested it out and they like it. I’ve done a bit of tweaking so that the checklist form plays nice with the new software and have brought it to the Standards and Practices Committee. Two committee members say it’s good and should be used to avoid more data entry problems, but the head of the committee says we can’t send it out because the llama inspecting guidelines need to be formally updated as well. Which makes sense, I suppose, but no-one has time to revise twenty pages of llama guidelines with all of the end-of-the-year reports that are due and the committee head is aware of this. So although we now have a checklist that can potentially help us avoid some serious inspection headaches and some more serious data entry headaches, I’m not allowed to send it to the ranch hands.

    I’m increasingly frustrated by how often this happens. For some projects I’ve spent more time proofreading and correcting llama checklists than writing the actual llama reports, and I’m not the only one who has had this complaint. A viable solution is presented but we can’t use it because reasons. Digital mapping tool to accurately record ranch properties? Too expensive, too difficult for some ranch hands to use. Suggesting we build inspection toolkits to give to remote staff so they don’t have “our” kits on semi-permanent loan? Too complicated to make the costs come out of their budget instead of ours. I’m going to keep pushing for the new checklist, but sometimes I wonder how much effort I should really put into this.

  194. Mammoth Springs*

    This is related to my post above, but it’s a broader topic…

    How do you get over the idea that interviewers are trying to trick you? Or any other negative thoughts about interviewing being a way to weed out candidates who are bad?

    What is a better perspective to take?

    1. irene adler*

      Try to understand the reasoning behind the question being asked. It is usually the way to obtain what skills/knowledge/experience you possess and whether it aligns with what they are looking for. Maybe for the next interview, try to ask them – before they get to much into asking you questions-what are the three to five keys things they are looking for in the job candidate. This is different from asking them about the job description. Their response will give you a feel for what they are looking for and help you to frame your responses to their subsequent questions.

      Might also educate yourself regarding all the questions/techniques interviewers use.

    2. CheeryO*

      I try to remember that (a) they are just people, people with their own quirks and flaws who would probably also be nervous to be on the other side of the table, and (b) they WANT to hire you. If you got an interview, that means you’re qualified, and the best case scenario for everyone involved is that you give a great interview and get hired.

    3. fposte*

      In addition to what other commenters say, remember that interviewers don’t necessarily have a big plan behind what they’re asking, or, putting it less politely, they don’t always know what they’re doing. Maybe they heard about this question on Twitter or they remember being asked it; maybe they’re trying to prove themselves to the higher-ranking person next to them; maybe they had this question get a really good answer once and they’ve kept asking it despite its being a dead failure since then. Not only do most interviewers not have the will to trick you, most don’t have the time and energy.

    4. LilySparrow*

      They are hiring for the position because they need someone. They are looking for someone who will be good at the job.

      They really want that to be you. The sooner they find the right person, the sooner they can stop searching (which is a pretty sucky process for everyone). So they are rooting for you to be awesome.

  195. The Stinging is real*

    How do you deal with anger towards a coworker friend? I am trying to get over this situation but this one is really hard.

    I have been working for this big company for a few years at a lower level job. A new job opportunity within my qualifications finally came up and I was so excited about it, I told all about it to my coworker best friend, who is already at the same level as this new job. Well, as I was talking to her about it, she said “Oh I could apply for it too” and so she did, right then and there. I immediately regretted telling her because I knew the company priorizes lateral moves, and I never thought in a million years that she would be interested. And she got the job offer this week. And I am preatty angry about it. Yes, I know, she can apply on any job as anybody else, but the reason why it stings so hard is because she already knew for a while that I was looking to change positions and get better salary, she didn’t need this job as she was already at the same level and she only got to know about it because I told her about it, for me! To me it’s a preatty shitty move, but I can’t do anything about it now. I can’t apply for her old position Either because I don’t have the qualifications for it.

    I definitely learned my lesson, but boy does it sting!

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      If this is a friendship you care about maintaining, and not just a coworker thing, I would talk to her about it. Otherwise I think the resentment is going to eat at you. Maybe distance yourself from her for a little while until you cool off, if you’re not comfortable discussing it?

      Also keep applying for other things. Always be applying for other things – you never know if you’d have been picked for this job your coworker got, so it’s best to try to move on and have your options open. Job searching really sucks – I really understand that. Took me 6.5 years since undergrad/2 since grad school to be working in a function I like that wasn’t a move out of desperation.

  196. Cog in the Machine*

    I just found out that the detail I’m on ends a full two weeks sooner than I thought. Yay!

  197. MCL*

    Slightly bummed after receiving news that the hiring committee for a position I applied for has let me know that my app will not be considered further. It’s a somewhat unique role that I thought I would be a good fit for, and I thought I would at least get an interview. I’m lucky in that I enjoy my current position, but I was really interested in learning more about the opportunity. Just venting to the void.

    1. nep*

      That’s a drag. It’s especially disappointing when it feels like a unique role for which you’d be a good fit. Wishing you the best.

  198. Can't Sit Still*

    Moving question – my company is moving in a couple of years. I really like my job a lot and I have a fantastic boss. However, while the move is technically local, the reality is that the new site is at least an hour away in the morning, and is 1.5 to 3 hours hours coming home (I have made that commute before. It’s brutal and considered one of the worst in the US.) Taking mass transit would add an extra hour each way.

    I currently live in a rent-controlled apartment that is decent. My health precludes sitting in a car or bus for 3 or more hours a day. We will be allowed some WFH days, and I already work flex time to keep my current commute to 30 minutes each way. The new site is basically an industry hub, so if I want to continue working in this industry, that’s where I’ll need to work.

    I’m really not sure what I should do. Lots of people have already left or are actively looking for new jobs (the number of people whose commutes will improve due to the move is about 10%.) My health is in flux right now, though. We might have everything under control by then (I have a lot going on health-wise). I really don’t want to job search when my accommodations are still changing regularly. WFH is often not allowed for people in my role, even as an accommodation, so being able to WFH is huge for me, since it significantly reduces the time I need to take for intermittent FMLA leave.

    Advice? Commiseration? I do have at least a year to decide and a lot can change in that time, of course.

    1. Havarti*

      Man, that stinks. :( Have you tried feeling out your boss on this to see which way the wind is blowing? A move that only benefits 10% of staff with the rest leaving or looking for new jobs is not fantastic in my book. It might make sense on paper if they want the company to be located at the industry hub and if they’re willing to lose a (large?) portion of their staff. But you need to take care of yourself. Leaving a decent rent-controlled apartment is probably something you shouldn’t do. Are you interested in continuing to work in that industry? You have a year so stay for now, focus on your health, think about what you want to do for job/career long-term, talk to boss casually about new location and WFH, maybe browse job openings. If you get the sense that they aren’t open to WFH, then you really got to make a decision about staying or going as the move date approaches.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        The move is definitely happening. The decision was made at HQ, which is not here. On paper, from 2000 miles away, it doesn’t look so bad. It wasn’t until corporate folks actually came out and tried the commute a few times themselves that they realized they’d made a mistake. Somebody in the C suite got stuck in that 3 hour commute, missed their flight and realized the complaints weren’t exaggerated. So at least they’ve quit talking to us like we’re whiny children.

        The new lease is for a much larger workforce than we currently have (had), so I don’t think it was a stealth layoff or anything. They really started panicking when virtually every departing employee was ascribing it to the move. It’s slowed to a trickle now, but I think that’s because they have started going into detail about what the benefits of the move are, whereas before, they were telling us “we’re moving, deal with it.” And they also promised us the new space would NOT be an open office. We’ll find out for sure what they mean by that in Q2, and if that’s not true, people will start leaving again.

  199. Arrietty*

    There’s a job in DC (I’m out west) that I’m looking at, as I’m really interested in moving out there. Its for the state government. However, it’s a “term limited appointment” for no more than 13 months, with no mention of renewal opportunities. It would get me a GS level if I could get in, I think. However, it seems scary to move somewhere for a year and not have the security of knowing I’ll still have a job. Especially because I’ve been job hunting for about a year now, slowly but surely. Is it too risky to try for a year long term appointment job without renewal? Has anyone else done this?

    1. Reba*

      Sometimes the year-long appointments get renewed more or less indefinitely. Sometimes not. If you get along in the process you can ask.

      Remember that starting the application =/= hiring the movers!

    2. CatCat*

      I moved to DC for a job that was only supposed to last 7 months and it had extensions along the way and lasted 2 years. I was unemployed at the time and it was during the recession so for me the risk of not going was greater than the risk of going. I was definitely socking away money and also hoarding my leave time in anticipation of the job ending when I was there.

  200. LQ*

    Rescheduling one-on-ones.

    I end up rescheduling one-on-ones a lot. I rarely (only when someone is out most of the week) fully cancel them. But they are with people who have a lot less busy schedules than mine and when I’m trying to find time to meet with myself and folks with much more busy schedules the one-on-ones are always the first to get moved.

    Is it a problem to reschedule (normally at least a week in advance, I try to not make it a surprise! when someone is expecting to get some information from me) one-on-ones a lot?

    1. new kid*

      As long as you’re not cancelling outright and not doing it last minute I don’t think that’s a huge deal – the only time I’ve been annoyed in similar circumstances is when one of those two things were also true (cancelled outright or last minute).

      That said, I don’t think it would be weird to ask the folks involved directly. “I realize this is the third one on one I’ve rescheduled with you this month and wanted to apologize about my hectic schedule. Do you feel like you’re getting what you need from me?” (or similar)

      1. LQ*

        This is a really good point. I’m trying hard to not apologize but use the “appreciate your flexibility” language in the updates. But I should definitely have a “are you getting what you need from me” conversation, something to make sure that I’m creating enough space for other popup things and make sure I’ve got some options there.

        Thank you!

        1. annony*

          Why not apologize? Honestly, I think it is a problem to constantly reschedule on someone and simply “appreciate their flexibility” without actually giving them a choice or even acknowledging the inconvenience. It strikes me as rude and quite inconsiderate of their time. If you apologize for the fact that you have to reschedule and ask if there is anything time sensitive I think it would go a long way.

          1. LQ*

            Because I apologize way WAY too much. I apologize too much for a woman in Minnesota too much.

            I’m not saying I don’t. I’m saying I’m trying hard to do it less. Which means 95% of the time I still say it 3-4 times when I have to reschedule. It’s not the best thing because then it waters down all the sorries until there is nothing there. “I appreciate your flexibility.” Is a way to acknowledge that they are doing something kind and it’s the language that’s been called out here to help the over apologizers not just say sorry sorry sorry.

          2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            Eh, I work with people with tight schedules and I don’t see any reason for them to apologize. I also have a full plate and my schedule is more flexible than theirs (more heads down work, less meetings than them), so accommodating them is part of my job. Apologizing and/or thanking me for flexibility is not necessary.

            So, @LQ, I fully support you not apologizing for rescheduling.

    2. merp*

      Gotta be honest, I had a work situation at my old job where, whenever I got a meeting invite from one person in particular, I knew it would change at least 3 times before it actually happened, and it was pretty frustrating. This was partly because of other circumstances – either things were time sensitive sometimes, or at other times I knew I didn’t need to be there anyway but had to go for appearances, but also I just rolled my eyes after a while that she kept scheduling things when she clearly wasn’t actually sure if they would work. I don’t know your situation or how avoidable this actually is, but just for that perspective.

      1. LQ*

        This is helpful. They are one-on-ones so they are scheduled as a recurring weekly meeting. What often happens is a couple weeks out something gets thrown over top (by me or someone else). I generally manage to catch and get them rescheduled at that point. Most of the time they are rescheduled a week or more in advance. Occasionally they don’t get rescheduled until I do my weekly review on Saturday (I look at next week’s schedule to see if I need to move anything around, or what I need to prepare).

        My schedule is about 75-80% full during “normal meeting hours” about 3 weeks out, so I will definitely put things on without being 100% sure nothing urgent is going to come up, or having to shift and change up what’s happening much closer to the actual day.

        I’m also (because I have a weirdly free afternoon!) doing my schedule check and about a third of the time I’m rescheduling because the other person is out or has something. These are also one-on-ones so if we don’t have much to cover we just wrap up early. (Which we actually do.) So I’m not too worried about not needing to be there part.

    3. Argh!*

      Yes, it’s a problem.

      I have worked for someone for years who cancels my one-on-ones almost every time. Sometimes she would reschedule and then cancel. Other times she wouldn’t even try. She never seemed to have trouble making time to call me to her office for a dressing-down, though.

      She also come prepared to our meetings, and she didn’t take notes except to scribble something to herself for her to-do list. If I asked her about something (I had to get her permission for almost everything. I’m amazed I could go to the bathroom without a hall pass!) … ahem… she would say “send me an email.” Then in the next “biweekly” meeting, which could be 4, 6, or 8 weeks later, I’d bring it up and she wouldn’t remember anything about it, and say “send me an email.” I wound up being more organized myself, though. I started beginning every meeting with a list of unanswered email topics. Gradually she began coming to meetings with a response. (Why she couldn’t reply to an email with an email is a mystery)

      I checked her schedule and it seemed like she wasn’t as busy other days & times, so I suggested some. She claimed everyone gets cancelled so we’ll keep our time. (Fast-forward: I learn that her pet meets with her weekly, without fail)

      If you want your supervisees to 1) trust you, 2) have positive feelings about the organization, and 3) get their work done, then you MUST make them a priority. This is especially true if they need you to sign off on projects or requests for other departments. Tell those super-busy people to send you an email and respond to them with an email.

      If you can’t commit to them, then you really must give them more authority to take care of things on their own. If they aren’t empowered to get work done without your cooperation, and you don’t have time to cooperate, you will have an unproductive an dysfunctional unit.

      Speaking from experience here!

      1. LQ*

        I’m absolutely not canceling. (Someone is out 3 days next week and 4 days the week after and I rescheduled both of them for her.) I’m not canceling if it can be at all helped. (I’ve taken 2 days off all year so it’s not like I’m taking a ton of time off and canceling for that. It’s usually because the other person is on vacation, which…please don’t get mad at someone because they canceled because you were on vacation. That can’t be a condemnation of them.)

        If anyone else was checking my schedule and offering other times they preferred to reschedule I’d do that. My schedule is just further out than anyone else’s.

        I am committing to giving them time, it just isn’t always the exact same hour every week.

        1. Argh!*

          Ahhh okay then.

          Still… just because someone doesn’t have a lot of meetings on their calendar doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have a plan for their day. That’s a great kind of employee to have. It might be worth checking in with each one to see how disruptive it is to them. Your time is literally worth more (in dollars) but their time still has value. If you can develop a habit of rescheduling the meeting at the time you communicate about their time off, that would show you value them and your appointments with them.

          1. LQ*

            I try really hard to do time off approvals right away and that means often on my phone and with just a glance. But I can make sure I note something about the time off when I reschedule which I’m not always good at. If someone is excited about a vacation when I move around because they’ll be on vacation I can just include a note to have a great time.

    4. LQ*

      I just had a good opportunity to talk to the person this has happened to most recently and I used some of the language here. It was a good conversation and she isn’t bothered at all. I reiterated about options to deal with immediate roadblocks and what works best for her.

      I’ll try to have conversations with the rest of the folks when they are back from holidays as well. I really appreciate hearing that it may look like not caring and that this can be an emotional thing for folks as well so I’m going to try to be really sensitive to that.

      1. fposte*

        With my reports, 1-1s float a bit–we’ll do one sometime this month, let’s pencil in Jan. 5. Oh, sorry, I’m getting backed up pre-travel, let’s make it the 12th. These are with people who do have flexibility and I know it, and if they want to reschedule I’m okay with that too. They always happen–it just might take them a few hops before they stick the landing.

      2. Argh!*

        That’s great to hear! Also great that you are open to resolving time-sensitive matters when scheduling is disrupted.

        My boss schedules her own vacations without rescheduling our 1-on-1s and won’t let us know in advance that she’ll be off. She sends an email after C.O.B. of her last day. Then I asked her if she could give me a heads-up because I keep a notebook of things to bring up with her, and all those things get delayed by at least 2 weeks. She said “then you can email those to me.” So I said “How would I know that you’re not going to be here if you don’t tell us?”

        So I started Outlook stalking her, checking her calendar. When she scheduled something for the hour before our 1-on-1 it was a safe bet she’d cancel me. That’s how I discovered that all those last-minute announcements of unavailability were planned. And she did tell other people. One time she took a 3-week cruise to Alaska. That had to have been planned well in advance.

        So I started sending her emails, as she’d requested. She either didn’t read them, or replied in the next 1-on-1 which could be weeks later. I became less and less productive and more and more demoralized.

        I started reporting to someone different this week… who was trained by my old boss, so I’m using the weekend to polish up a few cover letters!

        Are you familiar with the 12 Elements of Great Managing? It’s based on Gallup polling. Here’s a quote from the page on the 5th element: “the Fifth Element of Great Managing. It is measured by an employee’s reaction to the statement “My supervisor, or someone at work, seems to care about me as a person.” All organizations inevitably depend on their employees’ psychological commitment to their immediate manager and colleagues.”

  201. Bananarama*

    What does “with some flexibility” mean? That the workplace is flexible or that you have to be?

    1. Charlie*

      Hm, I would guess work place. We’d probably need a little more context, but my initial thought was this was referring to something like remote work “with some flexibility”. I’d take that as, we allow people to work remotely once a week or once every other week. A perk you would (or wouldn’t) normally get in this line of work/business, but we didn’t go crazy with it.

      My job is like this. We can work remotely twice a month, whereas the private sector companies we work with doing the same thing are almost 100% remote.

      If it’s something like salary, it sounds like they are pretty set on a number, but may have a little room for more money, maybe $500-$5000 depending on the base.

      1. Clisby*

        Or it could mean schedule flexibility even if not WFH. So maybe employees can arrive anywhere between 7 a.m. and 10 a.m. and can leave anywhere from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m.

  202. Charlie*

    Preferred Name Question.

    How would you list your preferred name in your email? Let’s say your name is Jessica Smith, preferred name Joey, and your work email is JessicaSmith at work dot com. You will not be changing your work email/in our system we have to use our legal first names.
    **
    Regards,

    1. Jessica “Joey” Smith
    2. Joey Smith
    3. Joey (new line) Jessica “Joey” Smith
    4. Other?
    **
    My coworker is non-binary and they use option #1, but I’m not sure clients can tell they are using the name Joey now.

    IDK, just wondering out loud. They can do whatever they want, obviously, but I hope clients start calling them Joey moving forward :)

    1. Havarti*

      I’d go with Option 2.
      We have lots of folks with their “real” name in their email address whose signatures say something else. It also depends if they use an elaborate signature block with company name, contact info, etc. They could do Option 1. in that and then sign above it as just “Joey.” I see it all the time for people who use their middle name.

      1. LQ*

        I’d agree on option 2. And doing the sign above as “Joey”.

        Listing both confuses the matter and a lot of people don’t know the Name “Nickname” Name means use the one in quotes. It assumes a level of universality to names that isn’t really true.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      I personally like 3, because people usually stop reading at the first line in someone’s signature. That’s probably the best way to get Joey stuck in someone’s mind as a preferred name – the reader might be confused right at first, but will get used to ignoring it as this contact is emailed in the future.

    3. annony*

      As the recipient, I would get the message best from option 3. Option 1 would make me think that either Jessica or Joey would be ok, with Jessica being the more formal way to address them. Option 3 makes it clear that they want to be addressed as Joey. Option 2 could potentially be confusing if they are listed everywhere on company resources as “Jessica” and not “Joey”. If the client doesn’t notice the email address they could end up thinking that Jessica and Joey are two different people, which may or may not be an issue.

    4. Anon Here*

      Hmmm. If I were in that situation, I would check out the email sigs of other co-workers who use something other than their legal name, from the obvious to the less obvious. There must be other examples, like people who go by their first and middle initial.

      That’s unfortunate about the legal name requirement. I know some places (ie government jobs) are just like that, but it would be nice if they would give the option of using initials instead of your first name. jsmith at org dot com or jtsmith at org dot com, for example. Would it be possible for Joey to contact the people in charge of such things and ask about that?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I’d recommend this too. I know of at least two people who go by their middle names, but their email and other formal documents use their first names with middle initial. They both sign emails with their preferred name, while their official signature block includes the legal name (very much like Option 3 above).

        I have to say it’s still a touch confusing because the email line autofills with the legal name, and you have to know that they have a different first legal name to find them in the directory. Unfortunately, because of this the only way to know that they prefer an alternate name is to get an email (or a face to face intro).

  203. sacados*

    Not sure if anyone would actually have helpful and/or actionable advice for this, so it may be more venting than anything. But we found out that my Aunt (mom’s sister) got fired recently and she probably needs some help of the employment law variety. I heard about this from my mom, so there are a lot of details that I don’t know, but the gist is —
    My aunt works (worked) in a hospital, in a nursing-related field. She had been there a long time and was fairly senior, and so more expensive than other younger workers. They had been trying to phase her out for a while — moved her to a position with fewer responsibilities, but at her same higher salary apparently under the assumption that she would probably retire in not too long. Which, as my aunt is 73 and has some health problems, is not an unreasonable assumption. But the problem is that my aunt is also responsible for supporting several good-for-nothing family members (her kids and grandkids) and therefore would literally have worked until the moment she DROPPED DEAD on the hospital floor. She cannot afford to retire. (Or, she could if she were only responsible for supporting herself but … that’s another story).

    So, I think realizing that my aunt was not going to be retiring any time soon and they were stuck paying her a higher rate for a less senior position, they began what seems to be a campaign to get her fired. Things like Aunt’s boss writing her up because coworkers had apparently reported that Aunt didn’t wash her hands after going to the bathroom (which a) Aunt does wash her hands, and b) she couldn’t really remember any recent instance where someone was in the bathroom at the same time as her and in a position to even know that in the first place).
    Also, apparently there’s some sort of new messaging system in place at the hospital for reporting patient information, and everyone was told how important it was to make sure the proper procedure/necessary types of information were included when sending these types of messages. So when Aunt was using it for the first time she called over a supervisor to check her work, make sure she had all the information included/correct. The supervisor signed off on it, said it was all correct, and then later my Aunt got reprimanded again because there had been something missing.
    Things like that.

    So a couple of weeks ago, something else along those lines happened and they called my Aunt into a meeting where she was greeted with a “Separation Agreement” and told to pack her things and leave. So clearly this was something that had been planned and prepared in advance. And as if getting fired like that was not bad enough, the hospital has now gone on to contest her claim for unemployment — they’re saying she’s not eligible because she quit!
    My aunt tried to consult with an employment attorney, but I guess she wasn’t able to find someone in her city (small city in Iowa) who would take on new clients, and was referred to someone in Des Moines — but that’s a 3 hour drive away so it’s just not workable.
    My mom — who is a lawyer — tried to give my aunt some advice. She looked at whatever “separation agreement” the hospital made her sign and it apparently seems pretty sketchy. Aunt is supposed to have some kind of meeting with the hospital and unemployment assistance people to talk about her case. But she’s a very meek woman and really NOT GOOD at advocating for herself. So it’s not going to go well if she doesn’t have anyone to back her up. (My mom wishes she could do it, but she lives across the country).

    Anyway, it’s just a really sad situation all around. We’re very worried about what’s going to happen to my aunt, since at 73 it’s going to be incredibly hard for her to find another job. But with so many people to support she HAS to have a job. And while my mom can help her out from time to time, it’s only going to be a bandaid on a leaking dam and not a long term solution.
    *sigh*

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      Oh man, can your aunt have anyone else sit in as proxy for a lawyer? Can she say someone is her advocate, or something, and have notes from your mother about the agreement she signed? Even if she can get a lawyer to send a cease and desist letter to the hospital, it may be enough to get them to back off about the UI claim. This is bull – I’m so sorry she’s going through this. I just watched a coworker in her early 80s get railroaded like this as all of her favorite teams to support were moved away from her to someone else – it happens too often and is really unfair.

    2. Temperance*

      I would honestly wonder how effective a 73-year-old would be as a nurse, which is a very, very physical job.

      I think the obvious solution is to boot the lazy relatives.

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        In fairness, they did say nursing-related field. I’m imagining a clinical educator or someone handling some kind of administrative thing related to nursing practice, since she didn’t say hospital bedside nursing. Also, bedside nursing jobs usually don’t pay all that well, which it sounds like her role did.

    3. Havarti*

      Your aunt has two issues: the hospital and her family. For the hospital part, probably a lawyer could help sort out at least the unemployment claim battle. For the family… I’m with Temperance on that. She needs to stop supporting everyone. But you said your aunt is very meek so she probably won’t. That’s a decision she has to make for herself so all you can do there is steer clear of those relatives so they don’t try attaching themselves to you when they finish sucking her dry.

    4. WellRed*

      Your aunt needs an employment lawyer. Is it required she meet the lawyer in person or is that an excuse?

      1. AnonForThis*

        As someone who lives in the Des Moines metro area… is there no closer lawyer she can consult? Three hours drive any direction from here is basically within an hour’s drive of a much larger, or equally large, city. Maybe that lawyer can refer her to someone closer and more workable?

        1. irene adler*

          Might consult the IOWA State Bar Association website. They have a Find-a-Lawyer service (gotta dig a bit to find it). A 30 minute consultation is available for $25 or less. Might ask them for a referral and explain the circumstances (distance) and ask if this consultation can be by phone or skype.
          The 30 minutes consultation can give you a good idea of how to tackle this issue – options and the like.

          I can’t believe that there’s nothing closer or an attorney who can travel to Aunt’s location or work with Aunt to get justice. What do other folks who reside far from Des Moines do for employment law attorneys?

    5. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I don’t know the Iowa Unemployment Insurance (UI) structure. My understanding is that UI is intended for people between jobs — the claimant has to be able and available to work. Might the Iowa UI people figure that someone over 70 — especially with health issues — should instead retire and go on Social Security/pension?

      Good luck to your aunt. And her situation is a warning to the rest of us about picking off the leeches well in time to retire.

    1. Anon Here*

      That’s something I’ve been thinking about lately. I’m in male dominated fields that are known for sexism. I’ve been observing that part of the problem is that the men do a better job of self-promoting. That’s partly because they’re taught to, and it’s more socially acceptable. There can be a backlash when women self-promote.

      However, how you do it makes a huge difference. If you’re smiling and confident and genuinely enthusiastic, that goes a long way. So I’ve been working on that – talking about what I do in a way that is not just informative but inspiring, so people will want to experience my work and join me in this path that I’m on (either vicariously or by actually getting involved). I take note of the times that I hold back and think about why and how to change that.

      I’m making progress. You have to really believe in yourself and ignore all the negative messages out there. Women tend to get more negative reactions for going out and doing things. We need to fight that by ignoring it and believing in the value of what we do.

    2. Mammoth Springs*

      You don’t get promoted as a woman if you do that. People will hate you for it. They will laugh at you. I’ve learned that I have to pretend to be shy and demure to be liked in the workplace. You either have to attend to your gender norm or you won’t get a job. I’ve started to say “sorry” for things that aren’t my fault and not talk about my strengths ever. I don’t really fall into the gender-norm category for personality so I just have to shut up.

      1. mldedobe*

        I work in technology & things constantly change. We continually need to learn new things. I have my own definition of “knowing” something, but the guys I work with have a very different definition. One of them commented on my “lack of confidence” & I wondered, am I underconfident are are you overconfident? Maybe both?

        1. CM*

          Same.

          My own experience has been that women get challenged a lot more when they say stuff (by men and other women). A lifetime of getting grilled or dismissed or insulted every time you assert something makes you cautious about asserting things, not only because you want to pick your battles, and because you want to deny them the vicious flare of pleasure they feel whenever it DOES turn out that you’re wrong, but also because it starts to gaslight you into thinking maybe you don’t know after all.

      2. Argh!*

        Very true, even with a female boss. I have tried to learn “I feel” rather than “I think” before introducing an idea, but with little success. I grew up with brothers! The other thing I can’t stand but which seems to be effective where I work is to introduce a comment with “Maybe it’s just me….” or “Maybe I am the only one who doesn’t understand this…”

        I also have two coworkers who talk so quietly I can barely hear them. Another one does a little giggle after making a point.

        I want to hit them all and shout “DON’T YOU KNOW HOW HARD PEOPLE FOUGHT FOR YOU TO BE HERE!!!”
        .
        .
        .
        .
        … but I just nod demurely.

        1. Mammoth Springs*

          Yeah those are the kinds of things I’ve had to learn to put into my speech to not get fired. It’s funny because people who do it naturally think they need to snap out of it and be more confident but… it won’t get you far!

      3. fposte*

        I won’t say that’s not true anywhere, but it really isn’t universally true, either. I know plenty of successful non-demure, non-shy women. Come to think of it, I am one.

        1. NW Mossy*

          This can be SO specific to organizational culture as well. My industry skews male (financial services), but in my specific org, about 60% of the leaders are women (myself included). As a result, successful, respected, knowledgeable women are present in pretty much every team and every meeting. It’s our cultural norm, so we tend not to see extreme gendered expectations of behavior or cater to them.

          The one exception I can think of to this is a strong bias against a couple of behaviors that read male in many contexts – being aggressive/hostile and being ruthlessly ambitious. In organizations with a competitive culture those would serve well, but here, it’s almost a dead certainty that people who behave that way either jump ship or get forced out. They just don’t last, because the culture doesn’t provide rewards for that style.

          1. mreasy*

            The problem is, behaviors that might be praised in men (assertiveness to get the job done, “straight shooting”) are often considered aggressive/hostile when women do them. The bar for judging women’s behavior is set in a totally different place. I was in leadership at a company for 4 years, during which they had their most successful period ever (by easily measurable metrics), but was told that I was considered aggressive and hostile and therefore could not get a raise. I was also the only woman at my level in the company, and was widely considered (people told me regularly with words) the friendliest and most communicative of the leaders in my role.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      At my end of year review, my manager (a woman) made a point to tell me that I need to write my self-report with more info on how I made a difference, not just a laundry list of things I did. First time in 14 years that a manager has done that for me – to be fair to my first couple of amazing managers, they did get how I made a difference, but my last 10 managers were just happy to get the review over with minimal fuss.

      I’m comfortable listing out all the stuff I do and making sure I get appropriate credit, but I definitely fall into the trap of expecting people to know why it matters. I’m going to take that lesson and apply it to my upcoming presentations about work I’ve done, to make sure the higher ups really get why it’s important.

  205. NW Mossy*

    In the immortal words of a former direct’s toddler niece, “I AM ALL DONE PEOPLE.”

    This time of year is always hectic as clients are trying to get work completed prior to the end of the year, but up until today it’s been manageable. But TODAY, my god, it’s Crazy Demands Town everywhere I turn. Between “can you do this in two hours?” (spoiler: no), “why can’t we be at day 45 on our timeline when we accepted this client 9 business days ago?” (because I can’t bend space-time), “why the F did this happen?” (because we were asked to do it), and “can you do a bunch of research to determine if I need you to approve an exception?” (absolutely not), I am at peak GAAAAAHHHHHH. I get that everyone else is trying to clear their desks before they take off for the holidays, but the way in which the calendar seems to come as a surprise to people every. single. year. is maddening.

    Anyone else year-end crushed and want to commiserate?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Mmm…I think this year has beaten me down so much, that the end of the year is just “meh, SSDD” for me XD

  206. Katniss Evergreen*

    I found out this week through a former-work friend, now-real friend that they basically saved my job offer for the position I started this fall. I had zero clue that my manager at now-ExJob was trying to figure out how to bully my new boss out of making me an offer. I already liked this new friend so much and was honestly so happy that someone who I think is so cool (both professionally and personally) wants to be my friend in reality. At this point, I have no idea what I did to deserve these comments on my behalf when they had the opportunity to be more hands-off about a thing with drama potential, but I really appreciate it. Nice to know there are people looking out for you here and there, and realize that (sometimes) it pays off to have developed common interests over breakroom microwave chat with people at work! Happy holidays everybody!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I had zero clue that my manager at now-ExJob was trying to figure out how to bully my new boss out of making me an offer.

      Where do people find the energy to be so petty? I have so many things I could do with all that energy they apparently have to waste on stupid junk (see @NW Mossy’s post above).

      Also, tortious interference much? (May not be applicable outside of the U.S.).

  207. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend - Hi nep!*

    Hey nep! I just saw you were on this thread and I wanted to update you on my question you answered from an open thread back in April, 2018: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/04/open-thread-april-6-7-2018.html
    I did not pursue any of these options because I moved across the country, got a new job in a totally different field, and signed up for volunteer remote work for a non-profit. Your comment in particular made me question what I wanted to get out of a program like Peace Corps or Teach for America, and whether I was even really suited for one of those jobs. As it turns out, I don’t think these are the right paths for me, and I’m content with my new day job and volunteer work as it is.
    Glad to see you back here!

    1. nep*

      Wow–thank you so much for this and for the update. (It was interesting looking back at that thread.)
      I’m so glad to hear about your job and your volunteer work. Sounds like you’re doing great things.
      Great to see you again too.

  208. Nicki Name*

    I’m halfway through the contract period of my contract-to-hire and I’ve had nothing but positive feedback. My boss and grandboss have both indicated that they expect me to be given a full-time offer. (Note: this is a place that uses CTH as a form of probationary period, so the general expectation is that a person will be converted to full-time unless there are problems or some kind of organizational change.)

    I’ll be happy to take it. I got to wondering though, how would I list a job where part of it was as a contractor on a resume? Could it be something like:

    Contract Start Date to Present: Senior Llama Groomer, Llama World (Contract Start Date to Contract End Date, contracted via Cameloid Associates)

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      I think this is good! My husband did temp-to-perm somewhere with the same expectation, and it works on his.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That looks good. I put in fake dates to see what it would look like and it does make sense. It made less sense with just the placeholder words :p

  209. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Has anyone ever taken a successful break/“funemployment”? I posted before how my position might be eliminated in a few months, and I would love to be able to take some real time off and just focus on myself.

    I have some real savings I couldn’t live off of, so that’s not not an issue. Has anyone taken time off without having a plan in place? I know finding a new job can take a long time but the last few times I’ve switched I went right from one job into another without even a week in between

    1. Can I get a Wahoo?*

      And I do take the occasional vacation, but they always seem to go by too fast and i can never completely disconnect the way I want to

    2. merp*

      Never done it myself but I would say go for what feels right for you! Obviously can’t see the future and know how this would go, but if time off feels like what you need and you can swing it, this internet stranger supports you.

    3. Bananatiel*

      This isn’t a great example but I had a friend quit her job as part of an attempt to break into a very, very difficult industry. But she later admitted she was also just burnt out and wanted a break in general. FWIW it didn’t end well for her, but she also took a whole two years off. And is in a position now that’s actually less senior than the one she left and very much not in the industry she wanted.

      I can see where six months or less wouldn’t really hurt someone as long as they had a prepared explanation in interviews. What you really don’t want is an unclear reason for the break (which is something I think my friend struggled to explain to employers). I’d also consider that I’ve had friends negotiate long breaks before between jobs, 4-5 weeks in some cases. A former coworker of mine, in a very senior role, just left and won’t be starting his new role for a couple of months so he can do a once-in-a-lifetime biking trip in another continent. So it’s pretty common to take time between jobs from where I sit, at least.

    4. Tau*

      Hmm – I’m not sure if mine counts, because I had my new job in place before quitting and therefore went into my two months off with a plan. This was probably a lot easier to swing over here than it would have been in the US, because we have stupidly long notice periods and so Newjob was fine with me signing the contract in September to start in January. I then negotiated Oldjob down to two instead of four months notice. I’m really glad I did it and think jumping straight into the new job would have been a disaster, but I also wouldn’t have liked to
      head into the break needing to job-hunt. I think it’d have been very hard to relax at that point.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Yep, I took a year off, moved cross country, did a lot of traveling. Got back into my career field as a temp, hired on permanently after six months and just had my fifth anniversary with the org this past summer.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Sort of…? When I left my last job, I got severance and had nothing lined up. While I started looking almost immediately, I also stepped back a bit and focused on recovery. I baked a lot. About two months in, I got a retail job working at a store I really liked, so that gave me some structure and got me out of the house (it paid very little, but enough to help keep things afloat). I walked my dog and watched movies and read books and just kind of exhaled a lot. I found a new job and started four months later, and while I was glad to be employed again (the severance ran out right before I got my first paycheck), I was really glad I had that more relaxed time.

    7. Ravenclaw Rantings*

      Yup. 14 months. Just started a new job last week. I’m a decent saver but divine intervention really stepped in with a lump some of cash. Had unemployment for the first 6 months. I probably should have gone back after 6 months or at least started looking because I could have saved some of that cash. But I had an amazing time. I traveled. Gigged a little bit–editing resumes and doing events. Slept too much. Ate too much. Caught up with friends and family. My parents were appalled lol.

      My last job was traumatic. I’ve only been back to work for two weeks and I’m still flinching when emails come in. Totally worth it if you can afford the break. But start looking much earlier than I did and be able to explain your break.

    8. Finally employed*

      I just finished a four month period in between jobs and while it was a bit stressful using my savings while I job hunted (it was an unexpected layoff) I won’t lie…it was amazing. Obviously four months was not voluntary and was way too long but if you have the opportunity to take a few weeks off in between jobs it will do WONDERS. I was so excited about my new role instead of feeling burned out, and it gave me time to process feelings about the layoff so I could move forward. If you have the financial situation to support it, dooooo it. (Also, I’m sure this is industry and location specific but nobody really batted an eye at the gap. Said it was a long overdue sabbatical to spend time with family, and I didn’t have any other gaps in employment, it wasn’t enough to let, like, my skills fall out of date or atrophy, so no one cared.)

    1. been there*

      I’ve done that and what helped for me was coming in a little earlier, dressing up a little more, and working as hard as I could. When distracting thoughts about my marriage intruded, I sometimes had to actually pinch my bicep or find a safe place to bang on a desk with my fist while I re-oriented towards work-related thoughts. If anybody asked me about my spouse, I redirected the conversation as politely and professionally as possible.

      I had five sessions with the EAP guy, who didn’t really have much to offer, but it was good just to be able to talk to somebody. I don’t know if you have access to a benefit like that. It kind of gave me permission to say to myself, Okay, I’ve done that for 50 minutes, now back to work.

      For me, avoiding the impulse to suddenly grind on fixing the marriage at all times helped me cope and brought about a successful enough conclusion. I was damaged in some ways and won’t ever recover full capacity for marriage or work, but both went well enough. I’m still married to the same person and I never got fired (even though the work I was doing during those months wasn’t very good). It’s been fifteen years since then. I wish you good luck and hope for the best for you.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Just general advice for handling any life impacting personal thing while working:

      Get as much rest as possible. This will help you to think clearer more often,
      Tell yourself, “This is work time. This is my break from dealing with Home Stuff for today.”
      Depending on what works for you, sometimes I found a new project could draw my concentration where nothing else could.
      Take walks at lunch if possible. This one might need to be done a few times before you might see some benefit.

      In your non-work time, take cry time as necessary. We have tears for a reason, to help us process and to help us think. Crying causes a chemical reaction in the brain that helps to keep it healthy. (A friend was just commenting this morning, “I had a good cry over some Family Stuff and wow, I feel better.” The family issue, itself, has not changed. My friend found parts of herself when she cried, her resolve definitely strengthened and you could see it.)

      1. irene adler*

        This.

        Might sound silly, but when your mind starts drifting from the work at hand and into your personal life, stop and make an actual appointment in your schedule to think about the personal stuff. Tell yourself that you’ll think about personal issue x at 6:30 pm on Sunday (or whenever your appointment time is scheduled). Then return to the work at hand. Every time your mind drifts, remind yourself that 6:30 pm Sunday is when you are scheduled to think about this.

    3. Oof*

      Thank you, all.

      I found myself afraid to leave work last night.

      (Not fearing for my safety— just not wanting to deal with my crumbling home life)

  211. Minimal Pear*

    Hi all! I’ve been lurking for most of this year, but this is my first comment. I’m a temp at a nonprofit, and they just sent out an email (to all mailboxes) inviting people to the holiday party. (It’s about a month out, they’re not doing it last-minute.) Should I go? I’m a fairly long-term temp, and I believe it’s not a situation where this might make me seem mis-classified, since I’m here through an agency. On the other hand, I’ve made a few professional stumbles (first office job) in my time here and really don’t want to come across as presumptuous. I think if I ask people, they’ll want to be nice to me and say “oh, of course you can go!” but then it might still seem awkward/weird when I show up to the actual event.
    If I do go, how fancy can I dress? I normally dress nicer than the norm, and it’s at a country club. Is that license to get glammed up?
    Thanks!

    1. Rey*

      This kind of thing is so specific to an individual office’s culture. Do you have a trusted supervisor or close peer you could ask? If you’re not particularly close, you could forward the email to your supervisor with a note like “Do the temps usually attend? I don’t want to misstep”, which keeps the question asking pretty casually, and makes its clear why you’re double checking. Also, they’ll feel less put on the spot to give an answer because it’s an email. If you don’t feel comfortable asking anyone about the dress code, I would go for dressy but conservative, like a little black dress but no sequins or feathers.

      2. Minimal Pear*

        My main concern–which I kinda alluded to but didn’t fully go into–is that our office can have a bit of a culture of being overly nice, and I think that people would think of it as “I don’t want to hurt her feelings/of course I think she should be included”. But then people from non-admin departments (who I rarely interact with and largely don’t know) will wonder what the hell I’m doing there. My boss is the worst offender for being overly nice and not thinking things through, but your comment made me realize that there’s someone I can ask–one of the people in admin used to be a temp before she got hired. We have a pretty good relationship and she probably would know what the usual culture is. I think in general we don’t usually have many temps in admin (although we have two right now, largely because my boss has commitment issues and wants to try people out before hiring to a ridiculous degree) so I’m not sure if there’s a normal policy. (And if there is, my boss has only been here a few years, is out of touch, and wouldn’t know.) But the previously-a-temp admin might know, so thanks for prompting me to think of her!

      1. Minimal Pear*

        The party is partway through January and I prefer not to celebrate Christmas. My issue is mostly that I can and will show up in a ballgown if I’m not reined in a little.

        1. Product Person*

          Unless the party invitation says it’s a Black Tie Event, you’d like look way overdressed! Even if temps are supposed to go, you don’t want to wear a ballgown and appear out of touch.

          1. Minimal Pear*

            Haha yeah, I was exaggerating a bit for comedic effect! Like I said, I usually dress a bit fancier than most people, so my everyday attire is already at “fairly casual party” level. (Think someone who’s starting to get back into vintage fashion.) So if I want to make it look like I’m dressing up for the party, that requires getting into “fancy” territory. I wouldn’t actually wear a ballgown, but this is a pretty casual company, so I’m not sure if it’s a “pants and a nice sweater” party, a “casual dress” party, or a “nice dress” party. I’d normally err on the side of casual… but it IS at a country club.
            …also I tend to project my anxieties onto my wardrobe and over-focus on what I’m going to wear for events I’m nervous about.

    3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I’ve worked at more than one place that includes temps in the holiday party as a valued part of the team. (One awful place not only didn’t, it really rubbed their noses in the fact that they weren’t included. We had a huge project on and at least a dozen temps, and it was like “Y’all keep working while we’re enjoying music and games and nice food. See ya!”)

      Rey’s advice is good. You might also go through your agency to ask. If they’ve placed temps there over the holidays before, this question might have come up before.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        I am currently having a bit of tension with my temp agency around their legal-but-just-kinda-crappy policies so I’m definitely going with asking someone at work!

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Good luck with that.

      If they include temps, great.

      If not, it may well be for the same reason some employers don’t include contractors; it helps the employers show they treat employees as employees and non-employees as non-employees.*

      Otherwise, the employers could be forced to treat everyone as employees for payroll taxes, benefits and regulatory compliance.

      [*] Temps are non-employees since they’re actually employed by their respective temp agencies.

      So if you get to go, great; if not, don’t take it personally.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Like I mentioned in my post, that doesn’t seem to be a concern here! I’m employed through a temp agency and have specifically checked in with my boss to make sure that a different thing I participated in wouldn’t make it seem too much like I was a misclassified employee. If they keep keeping me on I may have to revisit that, but for now I’m not too worried. I’m totally fine with it just not being in the culture for temps to go/people saying it would be awkward.

  212. Prospective Volunteer*

    Fellow New Yorkers! Our city is full of great non-profits. I’m interested in volunteering. Throw me some suggestions!

    I’m especially interested in ones that are lesser known, but if you know a really great Food Bank location, or one that really needs volunteers, let me know.

    Why do I want to volunteer? 1) The usual empathetic reasons – to make a positive difference in my community. 2) I’m new in town and I want to become more connected to the community and know more people. 3) To build my resume, which could be specific to my field or just something to list under Volunteer Work. 4) To gain references. I’ve been self-employed for a while, so I could use some references who can speak to the experience of supervising me, even if it’s not directly related to my main career path(s).

    I look at sites like Idealist and Volunteer Match. But I want to hear from you all in order to get new ideas.

    PS – I know this is a gray area between Friday and weekend subject matter. Posting it today because I see it as part of my professional life. I’ll understand if it needs to be saved for tomorrow.

    1. it happens*

      Do you want to deal directly with people or need or use your professional skills?
      NYcares.org is the best NYC database of hands-on opportunities, including the VITA tax prep program which you still have time to join!
      There are a lot of more professional skills resources – Net Impact runs professional consulting engagements for nonprofits twice a year (next applications Jan/Feb or so,) Taproot and catchafire have lots of projects. The Acceleration Project is based in Westchester and provides advice to local small businesses.

  213. Salary Requirements?*

    I’m applying for a job that says, “Salary commensurate with experience; plus exceptional benefits. Please submit a résumé, a cover letter describing relevant experience and salary requirements.”

    Since they don’t specify the salary requirements, what should I say? Glassdoor suggests that similar jobs (Content Manager) in my city (DC) pay an average of $75,000. Should I go with that number? Should I just say, “I am willing to negotiate salary”?

    1. Lena Clare*

      Could you put down a range, something like “$70,000-$80,000 negotiable”, or whatever your range is?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s what I would do (and have done), provide a range. If you have at least some relevant experience, I would bump the range to match your research, and probably say “$75 – 85k” if $75 is market average.

        I hate when companies make you name a number first.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If you don’t have to put in salary, I suggest…not. Maybe you’ll be filtered out for not having it, but if they’re being coy about salary, why can’t you be?

      (I maybe a bit annoyed at company’s being coy about salary in HR screens. You know what you’re range generally is, why are you being secretive about it? Really soured me on that job).

      1. Salary Requirements?*

        Do you think I could just say, “I am willing to negotiate salary. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, etc”?

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          To be honest, I wouldn’t bring up salary at all in a cover letter. It’s assumed you’ll be willing to negotiate salary and I think negotiations (while uncomfortable) are best done in person or over the phone. Especially since salary is an important factor, but not the only one in a compensation package. Argh, companies and their stupid games…

          Do be prepared to give a range/number during the HR screen, of course, and consider asking what their range is. I asked on a phone screen earlier this week and they refused to answer, which was super annoying (to me as a candidate) because they made me name a range. Oh well.

          Fair warning: I have seen the same request in maybe 3-5% of the jobs I’ve applied (out of ~80 over the past year) and those are among the many I never heard back from. Is that what made me a “no” instead of a “maybe”? Probably not, given how many other applications I was not offered interviews for.

  214. Piccolo*

    I had to move to a new city ASAP for personal reasons. It was a super fast move — I gave notice and left town.

    Now I’m in a new temp position. I’ve been here a couple months. I’m grateful to have an office environment to be in and to have something to keep me busy during the day.

    Meanwhile, I’ve been interviewing for jobs that I’m more suited for. I have a degree and 15 years of experience, 10 as a manage,r so I was hoping to get back into a director of operations role, or similar.

    However… I feel like just being in this temp admin role has shot my confidence. Everyone treats me as the admin (because I am). While everyone is super polite, I feel like I have to fulfill a type of persona to keep this job. Normally, I’m very direct and in charge and complimentary, but it’s not appropriate as an admin. I’ve taken to just being as quiet as possible and not speaking unless absolutely necessary so that I don’t reveal my true personality too much.

    Now when I have my higher-level interviews though… I’ve rehearsed this timid/shy/unassuming persona so much, I feel like that’s who I am now! I feel like I’m a different person than I was 3 months ago.

    I don’t feel like quitting the temp job is the right move either… I was unemployed for a month after I moved and I was way too bored to not be working. Agh

    Advice?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…having a range of personas might help you with boosting empathy skills. Would framing this as an opportunity to see things from that level/perspective help?

      Also! get in touch with contacts and rehearse your interviews, to practice slipping back into your direct, in-charge, and complimentary mindset.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Sorry, my second suggestion was basically, “do mock interviews with people who know you well professionally.” Words…so hard today…

  215. The Searcher*

    Just found out my boss threw me under the bus with a subcontractor… He forwarded an email that he had sent to the subcontractor that starts off: “We messed up on this… ” then hours later, my boss forwarded me the reply from the contractor which includes his *original* email and clearly says, “We (the Searcher, then me for not catching it) messed up…” (in more colorful language, to boot). However, the thing he’s referring to was something he had sent me to finalize, not something I originated… Do I say anything? If so, what? I’m currently under deadline to get something but this has me really very flustered.

    1. fposte*

      Yikes. That’s a tad…Nixonian. Is he generally okay to talk to? I might wait until after the deadline is met and then talk to him. “Boss, I was really surprised to see that you said I was to blame for the error to the sub, and I was doubly surprised to realize what looked like the email to them was actually edited so that it didn’t reflect what you said. That looks I’m being used as the scapegoat for errors I didn’t make and it’s being covered up, which makes me feel like I’m being hit by my own team. How can we avoid this in future?”

      The problem is that you may not be able to trust what he says, but it might still be worth making the point.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Yikes. That’s a tad…Nixonian.

        And incompetent at that. Did the boss actually forget to edit the contractor’s reply so the boss’ own quoted email would jibe with what the boss had originally sent The Searcher?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Uh, Boss, just so you are aware Thing was sent to me to finalize. I did not originate it.”

      What I like about this method is there is no names going on here. All I am doing is explaining MY involvement in Thing.

  216. Rey*

    Work etiquette for offering condolences?

    Seven years ago, I worked as a part-time secretary in one division (same large location) of my company. My supervisor was the administrative assistant for the division director. I was there for one year before I moving to a different division, and still work there now. About once per year, I stop by to see my old supervisor, usually with a quick work-related question that she has expertise in. Today, I saw something that notes the division director passed away unexpectedly at the beginning of the month. Should I stop by to offer condolences to my old supervisor, or send a card?

    1. fposte*

      Send a card. Stopping by risks a bad time and has a vaguely prurient flavor. It’s also distant enough that you don’t have to do anything, but if it was a long-term work relationship she would likely appreciate the acknowledgment of what the loss means to her.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing the card sounds very nice. And if you think there is even a slight chance she won’t remember your name, then under your name put some clue as to how she knows you.

        Mary Smith
        PT secretary in [her department] 2013

    2. Rey*

      Thanks for the quick responses. I wrote the card and dropped it in the mail before I could overthink it anymore.

  217. No more notes*

    Push back on particular peer?

    I’m somewhat (6 months) new to a workplace and am starting a new project led by a peer (we are both Llama Grooming Managers in title, but she is the heading up this particular project). This person has a reputation for creating unnecessary work for the team via “learning opportunities,” e.g. assigning a mock report on top of everyone’s existing workload. For a recent meeting, she assigned me to take meeting minutes (a task usually completed by the Llama Grooming Assistant, but she wanted to “equally divide work”) and has since sent back a version with copious edits, including idiosyncrasies like diverging from the template used by everyone else, an acronym key, etc. — she also wants to meet in person (we already connected by phone) to walk me through how she likes her meeting notes to look. She has looped in our boss, who she said agrees that I should take on meeting notes for a couple of weeks and then hand the task back over the Llama Grooming Assistant. This seems like a waste of everyone’s time…but should I push back with her? Approach our boss about it? Just suck it up for a couple of weeks?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It could be just me, but I don’t push back on anything that is not life threatening for the first year at a job. To me it’s just not worth the hassle that follows.

      If you do have a problem completing your regular work, I MIGHT consider asking the boss which I should focus on, my regular work or Llama notes.

    2. CM*

      The politics of this are weird.

      There are three scenarios I can see, and I don’t know which one is happening in your office.

      Scenario one is that your office follows a SUPER specific project management system where notes always have to be the same way no matter who does it, and your boss feels like it would be good for you to learn more about that process by participating in different parts of it — which could make sense. In that scenario, yeah, I think it’s probably helpful to learn the method they’re using… but you said most of what your coworker sent back is idiosyncratic changes based on her personal preferences. So it doesn’t sound like this is what’s happening.

      Scenario two is that you are not a good note-taker and the notes you sent did not make sense, and your coworker, not being that great at giving feedback, has resorted to the only thing she knows how to do, which is showing you the way she does it. In this case, it might be worth discussing with your boss again. If you’re not good at taking notes and you don’t need to do it as a normal part of your job, you might be right that it’s a waste of time to try to learn this particular methodology. But you might also hear that your boss really wants you to get better at this, in which case it’s not a horrible idea to do it temporarily. And you can also tell your coworker in that case that you’re open to feedback but you also want to find your own method, and then ask her for feedback about specific things that would be helpful to you. Rather than trying to do exactly what she would do, identify the things that need to be different (like, “We need a clearer list of action items”) and then find your own way to achieve that in the next draft.

      Scenario three is that your notes were fine and your coworker is being overbearing. For the record, my philosophy is that, unless scenarios one or two are happening, the method/format for note-taking should be note-taker’s choice. In this scenario, I think you should first clarify with your boss whether scenario one or two is happening — just to be sure. Like, ask if the goal is for you to learn a standardized note-taking format used in the office, or was there a problem with the way you were communicating in that first draft? If the answer to both questions is no, then clarify with everyone that you’re happy to take notes for a couple of weeks if that helps, but, if coworker needs someone to do it in this really specific way, it might be better to ask someone else.

      So, what should you do.

  218. Princesa Zelda*

    I graduated university on Monday and got a job offer today! I sent a Christmas card-and-graduation announcement to a library I used to volunteer for, and my former/future supervisor there emailed me to let me know that she’d love to have me back and that a new position was opening to work on a project similar to what I’d been working with her on before. I’ll be starting next month!

    2. Auntie Social*

      Four days after graduation you get a job offer? Half a week??? Well I certainly hope there will be no more lollygagging such as this in the future!! (Seriously, congrats!)

    3. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Congratulations!

      And a lesson to us all on (1) doing great work on all our jobs — paycheck or no paycheck — and (2) keeping in touch.

  219. Annoyed*

    Next year we are going on a company retreat, and one of our younger, less experienced employees (early 20s) is bringing a friend instead of a spouse or partner. Keep in mind that a few years ago, a boyfriend of an employee was disinvited to a company dinner because the relationship wasn’t serious enough. Our retreats tend to be on the nicer side – expensive hotels, steak dinners, fancy excursions. And now at a time when we are supposed to be bonding (we are a very small company), a random friend will be tagging along. The owner of our company is paying for everything and approved bringing the friend along – what makes it complicated is that the owner has a close relationship with this employee. I do not think it’s appropriate or professional but I guess the justification is “Everyone else has a partner but I don’t, so I should get to invite a friend.” I should mention that two other employees (and possibly more) won’t be bringing anyone, as one doesn’t have a partner and the others partner does not want to come. Am I wrong to be annoyed by this? Can someone help change my mind set?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Are you wrong to be annoyed? Eh, your feelings are your feelings. I think the real question is, what purpose/value is there in investing so much of your time/energy into being annoyed about this?

      From what you’ve written, it doesn’t seem like it would impact you in any material way and thinking about it won’t benefit you. And the more energy you devote to thinking about it, the more energy you’re allowing the situation to suck away from what *you* value and want to invest energy into.

      If this is part of a bigger problem of idiosyncrasies about the company that bother you, then address the real issues you have; if this is a one-off, it’s weird, but not worth spending time or energy feeling stuff about.

    2. Fikly*

      I’m flagging on the phrase random friend. How do you know it’s a random friend. What if it’s the most important person in her life? Is a person less important because a relationship isn’t romantic in nature?

      What if this employee isn’t someone who has romantic relationships? Does this change your position?

    3. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t really see how a non-coworker of any relationship, be it spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend other type of partner, belongs at a work retreat intended for coworker bonding. So I don’t think the, I presume, not-life-partnerness of this relationship is the problem. If you’re all allowed to bring a companion who is not a coworker (even if that’s usually a spouse), then this person should be able to bring whomever they deem appropriate for them. If the issue is that person is an outsider…so are spouses. I can’t tell whether the previous example dinner you mentioned was part of a previous retreat or a separate unrelated thing? I’m assuming spouses are at this event, otherwise I’m not clear on what the dinner example has to do with it. If the retreat is otherwise all coworkers, since the boss approved it I’d assume good intentions and there must be a private reason the coworker needs this friend present on the trip.

    4. Approval is optional*

      I mean you get to feel what you feel, but I think you should give some serious thought to the reasons why it annoys you. Ask yourself why you think a ‘random’ friend is going to interfere with bonding any more than a spouse/partner would? Would you say the same if it was a brand new spouse none of you had met before? Exactly why is it unprofessional and inappropriate?
      Is there something else going on here – is the relationship between the owner and this employee the real issue and the retreat something tangible you can focus on? Have you seen signs of that the employee is getting better access to work opportunities etc or are you worried this might happen? If so, think through those concerns after you’ve enjoyed the retreat.
      And whatever the reason don’t let your annoyance spoil your enjoyment of the nice hotels etc.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Why would bringing a spouse be more professional than bringing someone else? That’s my first thought. If you’re all supposed to be bonding, then I would think having spouses there would get in the way just as much as having anyone else. If it’s a small company, then I would think the rule should be that everyone can bring someone or no one can. Otherwise you get into relationship policing, and that’s not good.

    6. CM*

      I think the unspoken assumption here might be that spousal relationships or relationships that are leading toward marriage have a special status that other relationships don’t, and that getting to know someone’s spouse (or getting the spouses to know each other) is an important part of bonding with them.

      This strikes me as kind of a hold-over from the Mad Men era where, like, the men are meeting to do business and their wives are hanging out and keeping each other company and the fact that it’s a nice vacation for the wives is part of the bonus. That kind of arrangement doesn’t make sense anymore, even if you change the gendered element around and say the employees are meeting to do business and their spouses of whatever gender are hanging out.

      If the idea is that employees get to bring a guest to hang out with on the trip as a kind of reward, it shouldn’t matter who the guest is as long as they behave appropriately and don’t have any conflict of interest.

  220. Mammoth Springs*

    How would you answer “What is a deep, long-held belief you’ve had that you’ve recently changed?” in an interview and how is that a relevant interview question for any job?

    1. nep*

      I’d have to ponder that for a while…Nothing immediately comes to mind as to how I’d answer.
      I can’t think of how a response to that question would be helpful to a prospective employer. I suppose as with any possible question, it depends on the context and the type of work. Like is someone applying to bookkeeper, a bank teller, a head of a political campaign, a Sunday school teacher…
      I’ll be interested to read others’ responses here.

    2. irene adler*

      I’d wonder how this pertains to the job description. Seems a bit personal.
      Do they really want to hear about my religious conversion, or my recent discovery that my family hails from Germany and not France, or that electric toothbrushes DO clean better than a manual toothbrush?
      Or, I’d have some fun with it. Tell them that, up until recently, you truly believed the world was flat. Nowadays, you’re not so sure.

      1. nep*

        I was thinking of being flip with it too–‘I used to believe that peanut better was more delicious than almond butter.’

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          My flip answer would be “I used to believe there are no stupid questions, but this interview just cast that into some serious doubt”.

          I’d be thrown by this in an interview too. So many of my “real” answers would be personal rather than professional and not the kind of thing it would make sense to discuss in a job interview.

    3. Product Person*

      That’s a bad question, but I get what they are trying to ascertain: are you someone flexible and open-minded, or rigid and close-minded?

      Here’s how I’d answer it (making sure the answer is about work, not religious beliefs, or anything of a personal nature!):

      (Pause to indicate I’m giving some thought to the question) “I’m a very task-oriented person, and used to think that people should stay focused on the job to be done no matter the circumstances. But with more experience, I started to realize that as a manager I can’t treat my reports as robots. Now, if I have to give my subordinates a piece of bad news, such as that there is going to be a layoff, I no longer expect them to go right back to work as soon as I have answered all their questions. If I notice someone needs time to process the news, I’ll tell them they are welcome to leave early, and I also give my reports the time and space to discuss the situation among themselves. I’m glad I changed my mind in this regard, as I feel it’s one of the reasons I received so many positive comments in my last 360 performance review.”

    4. Ch ch ch changes :)*

      Well it’s definitely a relevant question for many kinds of jobs! It’s important to know that an employee coming into a company with a series of beliefs, drawn from previous experiences, would be willing to change if, upon reflection, new circumstances or knowledge demanded it.

      For a specific example, product development used to run on a “waterfall” methodology, which made sense when manufacturing industrial products that couldn’t be iterated quickly (like, say, a car – ya gotta get it perfect, there’s no Ford Focus 2005.3 ya know?) Then, when software development blossomed as an industry, people developed a new methodology which acknowledged that it was okay to ship something imperfect and iterate on it regularly. Of course, product designers had had it engrained in their mindsets for decades that everything had to be perfect before launch. Many designers struggled to make the shift – and if they were developing software, they were overly cautious or slow and probably got fired. Designers who recognized the value of the new methodology were able to thrive in the new field, including very tenured designers who were able to change some very old beliefs which had served them well in their careers to date.

      Situations like this occur all the time in many industries and roles. Companies don’t want inflexible employees or dinosaurs – they want employees who can change their minds if the industry shifts and new contexts emerge.

      1. Fikly*

        It’s badly worded, because belief implies not fact based, and things like religion or politics.

        As opposed to changing your opinion because you learned new facts, which is something that many employers would (and should) value.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Yes! When I first read the question I thought I can certainly think of examples but none that would be at all relevant to work. Now that I’ve seen a few examples from other commenters, I see where the question was probably really coming from, but have to admit I’d have had a very hard time realizing those sorts of answers would be what the asker was looking for, and you’ve just pinpointed why.

        2. CM*

          I agree — I think “opinion” is much softer (and more appropriate) than “deep, long-held belief.” Deep long-held beliefs CAN change, but they shouldn’t change very often. If they did they wouldn’t really be that deep.

          If I heard this question, I’d immediately think that either a) they were fishing for something religious, or b) they were looking for someone who doesn’t have deep, long-held beliefs and will go along with anything. I also would not have known what to say, because the first answer the came to mind would be, “I used to think we lived in an imperfect meritocracy, but now I understand that it was never designed to be a meritocracy at all.”

  221. Isaiah*

    I got fired from a job back in 2016. I was 27yrs old, fresh out of a masters program, and working retail – so it wasn’t really the most devastating firing ever. But I definitely wasn’t expecting it, and it felt like a gut punch. I sat with it for a long time afterwards and realized that, looking back on things, I probably should have seen some warning signs. Maybe my work situation caused some legitimate grievances on my end…but maybe I was also acting out, and needed to learn some skills. I started putting concerted effort into making sure a situation like that never happened again. Finding this blog, reading it intensely, and therapy all helped a ton with my growth and development as a person and an employee.

    I’ve since started working in a different industry that I love, in a job that I’m much, much happier at. This week was my one-year anniversary. My team recently transitioned to a new manager, and we’ve only had a few one-on-ones so far, but he routinely tells me how pleased he is with my work and how I interact with/lead my team. This week he even asked if I’d ever considered becoming a manager. It’s not really where my interests lie, but I told him I’m not closing off any possibilities right now.

    Anyway, his comment just caused me to reflect on my last couple years of growth, and how much time can do for a person, and how I’m still amazed I could transform from “difficult employee” to “manager material”. Truly, so much of that transformation is due to this blog. I’m so, so grateful for this amazing resource you’ve provided to people. Thank you for all the good you allow into the world.

  222. Working moms*

    My maternity leave ends soon and baby will be 12 weeks old. How do you guys do this with a baby? What’s your morning routine like?

  223. Little Red*

    On the a train home from my Christmas party I saw my very drunk married boss with his arms around my very drunk married coworker a few seats up. They got off at the same stop (the stop our office is on). I have another job offer so should I factor this into my decision? It’s a pretty small company and I rely on my boss to assign me work although he isn’t my direct manager. Before this we had a good working relationship and I had a lot of respect for him but seeing this makes me uncomfortable. The coworker he was with is a similar age and the same gender as me and I now I am worried my boss could hit on me or see me in a sexual way. It makes little things like once him once sitting too close to me when he came to my desk to talk to me seem weird now. Or am I overacting, should I just should I just write it off as one drunken night? I’ve never seen him do anything like this before. Also it looked like just a mutual embrace and I have no evidence anything else happened Also should I mention anything to my other coworkers?

    1. Reliquary*

      I think you are overreacting. You did not see anything outrageous. All you saw was a drunken embrace. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, and they may have been just expressing their appreciation for one another as co-workers. (“You’re the best boss ever, and I just adore working for you!” “You’re the best salesperson on our team and I think you are amazing, too!”) I am not saying that’s entirely appropriate. I am saying it happens when people have too much to drink, and their judgment is impaired.

      You saw nothing to influence your own career-related decision-making, and you certainly saw nothing worth gossiping about to your other co-workers.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      First… if your boss is attracted to your coworker (IF), that does not automatically mean he would be attracted to you. Chemistry doesn’t work like that. Second, don’t say anything to your coworkers! They may have been RIP roaring drunk, and sometimes people do stupid things when they’re drunk and they really don’t need to be reminded of that. Third, you have no idea what happened when they got off the train. Leave it and try to ignore it.

  224. Approval is optional*

    First, no, don’t say anything to your other coworkers.
    With regard to the job offer: the reasons you were job hunting haven’t changed, so I’d ignore the train encounter and focus on those, on the reasons you wanted to leave this job and/or on the improved benefits (if any) of the new job (better pay, better title, free chocolate on Fridays! or whatever). I don’t think you can factor in the encounter because you don’t have enough information for it to make a difference. Maybe it looked like a ‘romantic arms around’ but was actually ‘hang on so we don’t fall off the train seat drunk arms around’, maybe it was ‘romantic’ but it was just a hug and they both grabbed their things in the office and headed to their own homes alone – you can’t know. So focus on what you do know.
    If you boss is having an affair with your coworker, or if he had a drunken one night stand with her, it shows his judgement isn’t great, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll hit on employees, so this on it’s own wouldn’t make me think he was a serial sexual harasser. And I completely understand that it makes past behaviour from your boss seem potentially iffy now, and I would never tell someone to ignore their spidey sense, but make sure it’s functioning through a clear lens not through a post weird encounter lens (if that makes sense).

  225. NoLongerYoung*

    Need encouragement. I need to update my resume, but I’m frozen with indecision. I started the process to change jobs – if I back out now, I burn a bridge. And my fear is all about me… not the fact that it is a great unknown (I hate change). I need to remember also, there is no guaranteed job (they would be trying to make one for me).

    Background: After a rough year of working too much, I finally reached out to try to make a change. My therapist has helped me recognize that I have a somewhat abusive / toxic work environment. (Part of it is that I do not set boundaries).

    I had a good phone interview after reaching out to with a former manager who now heads a different division. Wants my resume.

    In the meantime, boss is very hard to make up the overload/overwork to me. I won an award plus they are sending me to a great conference. And boss is trying to get me to take time off. I know part of it is me and my fears about being needed. But there’s still no plan in place to spread the workload. And I’m still underpaid for my level of contribution. And the position in my group I applied for? They introduced me to the new hire. (even though I had not been told they were filling it)

    So that’s one of my projects for this weekend – get the resume updated. (I need to update my LinkedIn, as well).

    Just send encouraging vibes, okay?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Change is scary and that’s often a sign that you’re doing the right thing for yourself. Go forward!

      1. NoLongerYoung*

        Thank you… it’s taken me a long time to understand how much I fear change….appreciate the encouragement!

  226. Little Red*

    I left a couple details out. My coworker was reclined with her legs up on the seat and resting her head on his chest. He was resting his chin on her head. It was a pretty intimate embrace. Plus I don’t they weren’t talking about how much they appreciated each others work rather eachothers marital problems from what I heard. I am pretty close to one of my coworkers so I was going to tell her more just for advice about the workplace culture and whether this kind of thing happens a lot not just to gossip. I’m pretty new at the job but have worked with my boss before several years ago at another company. My boss seems less respected here something just seems off like he might have done something like this before and have an alcohol problem. He was very drunk at the party too to the point of urinating off the side of the boat even though there was a toilet. Or am I too uptight haha. I don’t know I just want a boss that can keep it together at the work party and this is something I am factoring in when weighing up the other offer. I guess I’m seeing it in the bigger picture of cultural fit.

    1. Approval is optional*

      I posted a response to your first post but it’s either in moderation or my PC ate it. But as I said in the comment, don’t tell your coworker. You can ask about culture without saying who you saw doing what with whom, if you feel having that information is important to your decision making process when deciding whether to take the new job. Once you tell her, you can’t untell her – and even if your motives are pure and you don’t want to gossip, you don’t know what she will do with the information. If she spreads it as gossip, well you will have started that. Consider the consequences if nothing is going on – you’ll have trashed their reputations over a misunderstanding, or, what if the coworker you saw on the train is a victim of harassment (as you now worry you will possibly be)? By gossiping about it (no matter how you frame it), you will potentially make her life even worse that it already is.
      If you want a boss who holds it together and your boss has shown he can’t do that, then you don’t really need to know more about the culture anyway: his behaviour when drunk should be enough of a factor in your decision making.

    2. Approval is optional*

      And not for nothing, a couple of drunk people hugging each other and sharing sob stories about their marriages doesn’t automatically say ‘affair’ to me. Sometimes drunk misery likes company.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I mean, this is certainly not GOOD, but I would not tell coworkers or HR based on this.
      I would also be on the lookout for other signs that the company has issues elsewhere. It’s possible this is just a one off of bad behavior and poor judgement, or it could be a party culture within the company (Duck Club anyone?).

  227. Mammoth Springs*

    I just feel so bad going into these interviews with the interviewer being like, I’m so excited to talk to you! I usually don’t even do these interviews but I was just so impressed with your resume that if this goes well I want to give you a glowing review to the hiring manager.

    And then I just f*** it up and… there goes that :’-(

  228. Mimmy*

    Is it weird for a graduate school to hold New Student Orientation in the middle of the weekday? This is a professional Masters degree, so you can bet that many of the students are working professionals. They said that participation is required even though they said it will be recorded. Maybe they figure that’s a common lunch hour? Even so, I don’t have the luxury of changing my lunch hour because of the nature of my job.

    I’m at a loss of what to do. I emailed my work supervisor to see if she’ll be able to accommodate my schedule that day. I could ask the program director if the watching the recording will count as “participation”, but I’ve already bugged her enough this week on an unrelated issue.

    I’ve been really looking forward to starting this program because it’s in a field I’ve long wanted to enter, but the administrative headaches are already raising red flags. I completed a certificate program from this same school in 2016 and had mixed feelings about it. I guess I’m a glutton for punishment ;)

    1. Hyacinth*

      Is the New Student Orientation being held in person or through a virtual webinar? Either way, I would hope that the program director would be understanding if you explained to her that you’re working full-time and are unable to attend due to your work schedule. When I worked in higher ed, we typically offered orientation webinars at both noon and 6 PM on different days during the week, so that students could choose the option that best fit their schedule. We also recorded them, too.

      I don’t think you should feel bad about asking the director for more clarification on how you can fulfill the participation requirement. It should hopefully be a straightforward and simple question for her to answer.

      And congrats on starting the program! :)

      1. Mimmy*

        The orientation is online, probably similar to a webinar format.

        When I had orientation for the certificate, I think they had two times offered, one of them being in the evening. I think the program I’m in now is smaller, hence why there is only one time available.

        Plus, why make participation mandatory when it’s going to be recorded anyway? The only thing I can think of is that it provides an opportunity to have questions answered right away.

  229. Sweater Jacket*

    For people who have a job working from home, how do you deal with stress of not interacting with your boss or coworkers? I feel really anxious when I don’t have regular feedback and it’s hard for me to know if my boss feels like I’m good doing a good job. Also I feel like I’m making less personal connections because people don’t see me that often. I’ve only just started a couple weeks ago so I’m really new to it. Other than that, I like being at home and I like working alone. I feel like I’m getting more done, but I feel anxious that my boss will feel like I’m not doing a good job.

    We do have one on ones every week so I do talk to my boss but I’m not used to not seeing people every single day so I just worry that I’m not living up to something because there’s less personal connection.

    1. Hyacinth*

      I feel like I could have written part of your post myself! I recently started a new job where I’m fully working from home, and like you, I’m adjusting to the feeling of wondering if my boss knows that I’m doing well and meeting expectations.

      In my last job, we billed work to clients and had to log all of our daily tasks on a timesheet in 15-minute increments. Unfortunately, that became a way for my manager to start micromanaging our team, which is a big part of why I left, but at least I always knew that I had solid data to show what I was doing.

      With my new job, there are no timesheets; everything revolves around deadlines. The way my manager explained it to me pretty early on was that even though he’s not involved in every project that his employees work on, he stays in regular contact with the project managers who oversee them. So if there are any performance concerns, that’ll most likely be the first way he would hear about them. Conversely, the project manager for the first project that I’m working on sent me an email the other day to thank me for all of the great work I’ve done and for getting it done on time, and she made sure to cc my manager, which I really appreciated.

      So all of this is to say: Is it possible or you to chat with your boss about your concerns and get some insight into which processes exist for you to get feedback on your work? Initially, I was hesitant to share my concerns about this with my manager because I didn’t want to look like a slacker or someone who needs a lot of oversight, but I’m glad that I did, because now I have a much better idea of the various points at which he’ll be able to see exactly what and how I’m doing.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      I interact with my boss and coworkers every day. It’s just not in person. It’s via slack or GoToMeeting or phone. Are you the only remote person in your team or is everyone remote?

  230. Hyacinth*

    I recently started a new job, working on a new team that’s entirely remote. We all communicate through conference calls, instant messaging, and chat, and so far, everything has been going really well.

    Soon, I’m all going to meet them for the first time in person at a company retreat. I’m starting to worry about this, because I’m not sure how to handle questions that my coworkers might ask me about my personal life. I’m currently going through a separation, so I’m trying to figure out how to best respond if someone flat out asks me, “So, are you married?” That’s not a question that I would personally ever ask anyone since I feel that it’s inappropriate, but unfortunately, I’ve seen it happen all too often at other jobs, when coworkers are starting to get to know the new person who just joined the team.

    I’ve been reading lots of articles about how to handle this (including some older posts from here on AAM!). I don’t mind sharing other things about my hobbies and interests, but when it comes to my relationship status, I think that deflecting might only make some people become even more curious about what I’m trying to hide. Any advice?

    1. Rei*

      Personally, I’d go for straightforward honesty. Someone asks if you’re married, you say “yes, but we’re separated.” Or “currently separated, but yes”, or whatever wording is clear and direct and works for you. Very few people will push further, especially if you change the subject or ask them a question as a follow up.

      I think the question is a pretty normal one to ask and I also think you’re right that deflecting will just provoke curiosity. Matter of fact, honest but not detailed is probably your best bet here.

      1. Hyacinth*

        I like that approach a lot; thank you! Like you said, it’s honest and direct, but short. And if anyone decides to push further for more details, at that point, I think it’s absolutely okay for me to say something along the lines of, “I’d prefer not to go into it, thanks,” and then change the subject.

        On a side note, I’m so glad that this new job came through at the right time for many reasons, but particularly for being able to get a fresh start as I’m going through the separation. My last company was one where just about everyone else treated the workplace like a family, and I felt that I never fully fit in there because I wasn’t buying into the whole belief that the company should be the #1 priority in my life. Now that I’m working in a 100% remote role while dealing with the separation, it’s such a relief to not have to worry about having to pretend that I’m okay when I’m really not, having to deflect questions that coworkers ask about how my spouse is doing, etc.

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