open thread – January 10-11, 2020

by Alison Green on January 10, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Unfashionista*

    TL;DR – what is the best way to tell my boss that I want to stop doing about 80% of my current role and pivot to something else within our (bigger) team?

    Backstory: I’m basically the only subject matter expert on llama styling in our very big company. Customers expect and require there to be someone who knows about llama styling. But I’ve been doing this for the last 3 years and been 100% sick of it for the last 1 year, so I am very ready to move on. There are sufficient opportunities I would be happy to take in other parts of our team and/or bigger company.

    Unfortunately, as there is no one else who really knows about llama styling (and internal efforts to try and cross-train other team members on it have gone…not great), I’m still stuck with it. Requests for llama styling are cyclical, so it doesnt take up my entire year (hence why I can do other fun, unrelated projects on occasion) – but I am very much done with it.

    As I am literally one of only about 2 people in a 50,000+ employee company who can do this and knows exactly how to style the llamas as per the latest trends, I know for a fact they would rather keep me and have me available for questions than lose me entirely. But I dont know how to make it clear (without sounding like I’m threatening to quit – even if I am looking elsewhere) that I really need to be done with what are currently a lot of my day to day responsibilities at the end of this years cycle. I’d be fine with a ratio of 90% non llama styling, 10% llama styling (aka being available for emergencies/complex cases), but nothing more than that.

    Much like a bad manager, I’ve gently hinted to my boss that I would really like a new challenge, but I’m pretty sure they have no idea just how much I want to do something (literally anything) else.

    So the challenge, how to very clearly and unambiguously state that I would like to do something else (and soon!)?

    If it helps, there are other projects within our team that I could take on easily, the real problem is getting rid of my existing duties.

    1. Adlib*

      Do you have regular discussions with your boss about professional goals or development even if it’s just around annual review time? I don’t have any scripts, but if you don’t regularly discuss your future plans, maybe this could be a way to start the conversation?

      1. Potsie*

        Yep. I think the only way to drastically reduce Llama Styling job duties is to completely change jobs so that they hires someone else to fill your current position. You can say that you are willing to still help out occasionally or provide coverage if someone is out but you really need it to not be one of your primary job responsibilities.

        2. Federal Blue Collar*

          I had virtually this exact situation a year ago, not least because for health reasons I needed to get off the shift (graveyard) that my very specific, seasonal, I’m-the-only-expert job allegedly required. For about a year after I told my boss was going to apply for an internal, lateral job change, they put my job onto the 2nd shift, but then the supervisor undermined those conditions and nobody informed the clientele that llama styling’s hours had changed and I could tell that when busy season began they would be requiring me to move my hours.

          So I jumped full into another section on the 2nd shift with totally new responsibilities and management over the old job simply had to train someone else. They come to me with questions now and again, but it happens less and less often.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, the best way to say “I don’t want to do this job any more” is to apply for another job when there’s an opening doing what you like. Or to stop gently hinting and say to your boss “if there’s ever an opportunity, I’d love to move into llama herding and out of llama styling.”

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, hinting won’t get you anywhere. I’d just come out and say that I’ve been looking at internal transfers because I’ve grown out of my role and want a new opportunity.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Agree with your advice to stop gently hinting and just come out with it.

        You don’t want to do this anymore – okay. Your boss isn’t a mind reader, and a lot of people don’t pick up on subtle hints. Be direct and explain what you do like and how you want to grow, but also be prepared to be told no. Believe me, I’ve been there and it sucks (being the only person to do a very important thing), so also consider exactly what you’ll do if you don’t in fact get a resolution from this that’s acceptable to you. Good luck!

      3. kittymommy*

        That’s what I was thinking as well, especially since it is such a large part of the job. Just start applying to other internal positions and let the boss know. I’d be surprised if most places would remove 90% of a someone’s duties without a formal job change (and all that entails).

    4. ThatGirl*

      Can you train someone else to style llamas? I would have a clear discussion with your manager about how much you dislike it and whether you can work on a clear, defined plan to offload those responsibilities. If you don’t feel like you can do that, then looking for an internal transfer is another option.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        I was thinking this too. Could you provide a mentorship or assist with cross-training? Otherwise, a meeting with your boss about applying for a different internal position might be just the “hint” they need that you are looking to move on.

      2. Senor Montoya*

        BTDT. Took me three years to divest myself of llama styling. I was quite upfront about it after a year. I did not feel I could move to another job as I had family obligations that my boss accommodated — the kind of flexibility you get from being very valuable and having a lot of personal capital, unlikely as the newby. And I’ve covered llama styling several times since, when the llama stylist goes on leave or leaves.
        So, be upfront but also look for other opportunities.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      You may want to start a job hunt to boost your confidence (and who knows, you might get offered something awesome!).

      It gets a lot easier to say to your boss “I need my role to change in order for me to continue working here” if you know that you’d be sought after in an open market. If, say, you get far down the road with another company, even if you don’t want to accept the offer, you will feel far more comfortable walking into your boss’s office and asking for a change…

      …because you do, of course, need to be prepared to actually leave if they say no or say yes but don’t follow through.

    6. Katniss Evergreen*

      Kind of looks like you and the commenter below should chat – maybe the process for how The Tin Man got the promotion/new job prospect that they’re building could help you!

      It sounds to me like you need to push for redundancy in the llama styling aspect of your job before you can step away, if it really is that important. It depends on what your organization needs and what kind of relationship you have with leadership – if you’re only guessing that they’d do what they can to keep you within the company, I’d get that straight quick by feeling out if any contacts exist who’ve done something similar. If you want to cut your core duties down to 10% of your time, your leadership have to either be on board or be told that you’re leaving the role for your intended jump to a new role to work (and if you did leave your role for another within your company, you should make sure your boss does not have power to stop you – some LWs in the past have said their internal moves have been blocked by intended ex-boss jockeying with intended new-boss or something to that effect.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I’ve experienced the whole manager blocking a move thing, so I agree that this is something OP needs to find out ASAP. I worked at a law firm where I was the main contact for my department with a specific bank that was known for being overly demanding and ridiculous, and I put in two transfer requests because I was over dealing with these people and getting no relief from my boss – boss swore up and down she’d have people cross-trained so I wouldn’t be the sole person dealing with these people, but even after I spent weeks training people on what I did, she still refused to hand off the work and let me do the other stuff on our team that I actually liked and was also really good at.

        Anyway, after the second time, my boss allowed me to move over to a different team in our department that I was already helping when they got behind in their work – but I still wanted out of that dumpster fire of a department altogether. So the next time I pie in a transfer request, I also scheduled a meeting between us and HR to let everyone know I was externally job searching and the minute I found something else, I was gone. A couple months after that discussion, HR brought me up to their office to let me know I was getting a title bump (but no pay increase when I was grossly underpaid, smh) and a transfer to a different department. I still ended up leaving the firm seven months after my transfer, even though my new department was great, because I was officially done with how they dicked me around for two years – the trust and respect was gone.

    7. Aquawoman*

      While I’m not sure why past training efforts have gone badly, my initial thought is for you to suggest that you cross-train multiple people on llama styling, and you and/or the other llama stylist can be the review person(s) for those folks. It’s more sustainable for the company not to have to rely on 2 people (especially when they are in danger of losing 1 because they don’t want to do so much of it). That then transitions you out of llama styling as the others become more adept, and limits your role in the meantime.

      1. Lonely Monster*

        I’m a little confused when potential employers ask for a “statement of purpose” or some type of essay asking to be included in the cover letter regarding a candidate’s worthiness (?) To work for them.

        Most of the time I’m not sure what they are looking for or how long of an essay it show be.

        Any clues? Thanks

    9. Artemesia*

      I would apply for a job you really want within the company and then have a frank meeting with your boss in which you make clear –no hinting– that you are ‘done’ with being a llama stylist and to ask how best to create a transition so you can get someone else up to speed. The act of applying creates a clear occasion for this conversation and also makes clear that you are serious about it — now, not by and by. ‘If I transfer within the company of course I will be available for emergencies during the transition but my goal is to move away from this role completely.’ This makes clear that there is a potential that you would find a job outside the company and they would lose your skills entirely without you having to say it.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      Similar problem. I finally said to my boss during our last 1 – 1, ‘I’m thinking it’s about time to do something new. What is the process for that?’ His response was ‘we need to build a succession plan’. I made a couple of suggestions on skill sets we need, and we’ll be building it this year.

    11. Don't Send Your Kids to Hudson University*

      Have you had any direct conversations with your manager about the company’s long-term plans for llama styling? It will probably lead to less immediate changes, but I might approach this with my manager (given our track record of having professional-development and goal-setting type conversations) like this:

      I am really enjoying developing my skills in areas x and y, like when I did [specific fun projects I want to do more of]. Given the opportunity, I would like to continue those skills and see my role expand to take on more projects like these. Right now, I think that the way Company handles llama styling might limit that sort of growth for me. Do you think Company is committed to continuing to handle llama styling this way for the foreseeable future?

      I think depending on the sort of reception you get, you’ll know whether you should be applying to more attractive internal (or external) positions or helping to come up with the solution for how else the llama styling gets done.

      If they are open to change, would you be willing to supervise llama styling, but be able to train and delegate tasks to a group of people with shared responsibility? There might be a way to pitch that so that it sounds less like “I am over llama styling, one of my significant job responsibilities” and more like “I want to develop my leadership skills and take on some supervisory responsibility, while also ensuring that the company will always have a pool of llama styling talent.”

    12. lala*

      “Hi boss. I know we’ve talked about this briefly in the past and had some unsuccessful attempts at cross-training, but I need to be clear that I am getting burnt out on llama styling. It is at the point where I am looking for other opportunities. Can we discuss a plan to train X and Y so they can take over the llama styling? I would be more than happy to help with their training and even be available for questions, but it is not sustainable for me to continue doing this work. I love 1, 2, 3 aspects of this job and I am interested in doing more 4 and 5, but in order for me to stay here and on this team, I need llama styling to be taken off my plate.”

  2. The Tin Man*

    The Good: I’m pushing for a promotion at work and boss, grandboss, HR, and even great-grandboss and are all enthusiastically on board!

    The Question: Any advice on how to approach essentially picking a new job title for myself?

    The Background: Boss and HR keep asking what I want my title to be and what work I want to do. Whatever I would be doing doesn’t currently exist in our structure – they would be creating the role for me. I have a great opportunity for job crafting here but my feeling is that yes, choosing the work I want to do is important, but also what work in my skill set does the company need done?

    I have probably three ideas for directions my career can take in this next step but I don’t really know how my company’s job titles align with those directions. I also want to make sure that (1) my new title is a salary band up from where I am now and (2) the title leads to the next job I would want to be doing after that. My boss made sure to stress point (2).

    I’ve given HR a few job titles and they gave me the job descriptions for me to highlight the work I already do/want to do but it’s frankly a little annoying that they aren’t coming up with ideas – it is all on me to find out titles and ask them for the job descriptions. I guess this is really where the problem is coming from – we have one regional HR person for 600+ employees.

    As I write this I am thinking the next step could be setting up a meeting with boss, grandboss (who is very active in this), and maybe HR where I lay out the three paths and we talk about where the need really is. Then ask HR for job titles that match that. Thoughts?

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Get with your boss and grandboss and ask them exactly what they’d like to see you do. What skills do you bring to the table and how do they see those skills turning into something that would greatly benefit your team and the company as a whole? Basically, what’s their business need? Once you guys get a handle on that, then go to HR with the title that best fits the role you all have agreed to.

    2. Lynx*

      I actually found myself basically in this exact scenario this year. I had been working for a year to essentially design & start doing my own job, and everyone was on board for making it official. For a while they kept me at my almost-entry-level title despite essentially running the show in my department (they gave me the raise right away though haha). I finally got the guts to ask for a title change, and they essentially told me I could pick it.

      I think what helped me the most was sitting down with my boss and telling him where I envisioned my career going and what would be included in my job description to help me get there. Do you have a finalized job description? If not, I would settle on that before picking a title to go along with it. Are there standards for your field? I wound up researching job listings that matched the description elements we talked about and picking out a title from there. It was a little nerve-wracking to basically design my own promotion, & I worried about coming off as presumptuous when I gave them my input, but they gave me the management-level title I asked for!

      1. The Tin Man*

        Thank you for the reply! There is not a finalized job description so I know that is really the first step. The part where I get hung up a little is that this is a large, multinational company so official job descriptions are standardized. Of course on the local level there is discretion about what someone actually does – I only do about 2/3 of what is in my “official” job description.

        There aren’t really standards in the field I am aware of but that’s a good idea to look into. Without going into too much detail I’m kind of a performance/process/business analyst person in a very blue collar company. I’m at the point of contact between the Corporate and Operations side, which I like a lot. I do a lot of translating and distilling of corporate-speak to my boss and coworkers.

        I too am worried about being presumptuous and worried I’ve talked too much on the fact that I want a higher salary band in discussions so far but know that I should be honest that that is a decent part of what I’m looking for. My job duties are now at a markedly higher level than this position was really intended.

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          I have a very similar role, and my company just did a big initiative to align our job titles with industry standards. (We were missing too many good candidates because of miscommunication about what a job really was about).
          I’m a ‘Process and Initiatives Analyst’.

        2. KTM*

          I’ve been in a very similar situation and I’ve found that it’s best to work it up the chain and do as much of the groundwork as you can before it goes to HR, similar to the great advice given above. I wrote my own job description to the best of my ability using other example job descriptions that already existed within the company. I then met with my boss and grandboss to review and made changes based on their suggestions. We together came up with 3 titles options that we felt made sense that covered both what I do and where I want to go. We also discussed salary expectations. The entire package was then ‘pitched’ to HR by my bosses and I think HR was just happy that we did all the work so they just approved everything and said any of the titles were fine.

        3. Juniper*

          We have “Process Optimization Analysts” and Managers up through Director; perhaps that could work as a series of titles for you too? Ours are relatively new positions as well, and seem to keep evolving.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      Yeah with one HR person for 600(!!) employees you’re going to need to do the legwork with your bosses and go to HR with what you’ve decided especially if this is a new position.

    4. Anonish*

      So I didn’t choose my own title, but I did create a new role and move into it within the past year. I wrote my own job description, and my boss re-named it based on what I wanted to actually do every day. Your idea to clarify the need the new job will fill sounds like a good start. It sounds like when you ask them to help you with a title, you might really be asking them to specify what will be expected when you’re promoted, and HR just wants to know which box you want to check, but you don’t know that yet until that conversation happens.

      I work in a field (higher ed) where titles are simultaneously super important to positioning yourself for your next move and also completely random and vague. Reverse engineering how Boss may have gotten to this title, I think two factors probably came into play: clarifying what I’m actually in charge of and establishing where I fall in the hierarchy of that thing. My old title, Coordinator of Various Things, suggested that I was mostly a point person for the Things, which was true. My new title, Director of Broad Topic, identifies that I am in charge of making Various Things happen in the service of Broad Topic. It’s less specific, but encompasses my authority over the Things, not just my connection to them. There’s also a generally understood dotted line between Coordinator and Director within higher ed, at least in my region; similar titles at two different institutions may have vastly different duties, but you can generally assume that a Director has more authority than a Coordinator.

      TL;DR: Choose a title that will tell people what you’re in charge of and how in charge of it you are, based on the conventions of your industry. Hope that helps (either you or for someone else if I’m completely off about what you’re looking for here).

    5. RC Rascal*

      Here is how I would approach this: go to the major job boards and look for similar positions in your market & surrounding regional markets. ( For example, if you are In Minneapolis I would check Chicago, Detroit, Omaha, Milwaukee & Kansas City). Look at the titles for those jobs & pick something you like. This approach will help you stay relevant the market for your next search and align your resume with the titles the ATS systems are seeking. My two cents.

    6. ten-four*

      In my experience it is very common for people with a vision to be asked to define the initiative/task/role that they are driving. It’s also a huge opportunity! The odds are close to zero that an HR person (particularly one who manages a 600 person organization in a field completely outside what you want to do) would be able to create a job description/title that is meaningful. It’s much more likely that they’d create something pretty dreadful that you’d be stuck with!

      Seize this opportunity to put real thought into what you want to do, lay out a vision and the steps, and build buy-in! I think the next step you identified (laying out the three paths and identify what the need really is with your boss, grandboss, and maybe HR) is an incredibly smart move. You’ll get clarity from the people who’s buy-in you actually need, and you’ll be building alignment and agreement on a career path that meets your needs and theirs.

    7. SaffieGirl*

      I have been in a similar situation a couple of times and had the same experience that it was on me to figure most of it out. Initially, it was very frustrating but in the end it turned into a big positive. First, focus more on what you want and how you want to develop, then figure out how to work that into the business. This is one of those times to self advocate and if the company wanted something specific, they will tell you. As for title, I suggest looking at standard titles that will be good stepping stones on your career path. This is when the internet was invaluable, as well as LinkedIn (find people with the job you want someday and see how they got there). It’s a great opportunity and is worth the leg work to get the job you want. Good luck!

    8. Existentialista*

      I’ve had to create several titles this year, not for myself but for positions that will report to me. I found the job site Indeed to be a gold mine of both titles and descriptions of responsibilities. I found that there’s already an accepted name in the industry for a thing we need doing that I’d never heard of, and I also got a great start on the job descriptions by cutting and pasting and “stealing with pride” from the job advertisements.

      I’ve worked in an emerging discipline throughout my career and titles have always been tricky, so I was especially glad to see some standardization starting to form.

    9. anon attorney*

      I’m not clear on whether you have the opportunity to create an entirely new job, or whether you are expected to identify a role or category that already exists within the organisation and align your tasks and activities to that? I think you are exactly right to be trying to bring together what you want to do with what the organisation needs, and to think about how this links to the next step in promotion. But if you have the opportunity to literally write your own job description, I’m not sure why you would want to outsource that to HR at all? If I were in your position, depending on the organisation’s procedures, I would create a couple of job descriptions (since you have a few options) and find out (a) whether your own senior management will endorse one of them and discuss how this impacts your career trajectory and (b) what the process is for having the role formally signed off and assigned a grade/title/salary. To me, part (b) is where HR comes in but part (a) is not only something that is your responsibility, but is a fantastic opportunity for you, no?

  3. 1234*

    Yesterday, I (and others on my team) received an email from Liza, who is our grand boss. The email started with “I don’t know if Mary (our manager) reached out to you regarding [PROJECT] but it is happening during [upcoming time frame]. We need some of you to volunteer for this upcoming opportunity.”

    I asked Mary about PROJECT last week; I had worked on the same project/client with Jane (manager before Mary whom I loved and miss but that’s another story) and expressed interest to Mary about being assigned this project. Mary goes “Great, you’re assigned! Will send details at a later date.” This was all done via text which is normal for our industry; we work remotely and don’t often see our bosses except at trainings etc.

    I found it odd that Liza was emailing the team as most of our communication comes from Mary. I reached out to another colleague/friend, Brenda. Brenda told me that Mary was laid off mid-December and Mary called Brenda sobbing when this happened. I had no knowledge of this and even kept checking spreadsheets Mary created to see if there were any updates to projects. I found it crazy that (1) Mary no longer worked for the company when I texted her AND she wrote back that I would be assigned a project she no longer had the authority to assign! (2) Only select team members (whoever Mary told) knew of her lay off and (3) Liza did not bother to announce Mary’s departure at any time and Mary managed many remote employees.

    1. Minocho*

      Yikes! Confusing and concerning! Can you reach out to Liza and ask about Mary and your current reporting structure?

      1. 1234*

        I wish it was that simple. This company can be known for more “hush-hush” when people are no longer with the company.

        Years ago, on another team with the same company, Janet left the company and we were only told that Janet was no longer employed there. Allie was hired as the manager to replace Janet and was introduced to all of us as our new manager via email from Big Boss Kate (who is higher up than Liza). We were sent one email from Allie asking about general administrative things.

        Then suddenly, weeks later, a new manager, Regina, introduced HERSELF as our new manager without any introduction from Big Boss Kate or explanation of what happened to Allie. [And no, this is not like the letter earlier this week where a coworker suddenly decided they wanted to manage colleagues without permission]

        1. Minocho*

          This structure (or lack thereof) sounds unworkable in the long term. In the short term, if it has value for you and/or your career, great, enjoy. But this does not sound like a place I would be willing to get comfortable with – I need to understand the structure so I know who I report to, who I should take assignments from, and who I need to listen to in order to keep getting my paychecks.

          Having worked in messy and toxic places myself, I would urge that an attempt be made to avoid adopting too many of these practices and attitudes as normal behavior – this does not sound like anything near normal in the workplace.

          This sounds like something that would be unworkable for me, personally.

          1. 1234*

            I enjoy the work that we do and the clients that we serve. The pay is on par with/a little higher than industry standards. I’m ok with not having structure, but I would’ve liked a heads up that someone in charge of me…is no longer in charge of me. I’d like to think that Liza doesn’t realize that Mary never told us that she was leaving and therefore didn’t think to mention it.

            I have been with this company for a number of years. In that time, the following people managed us on Team N:
            – Jane [Was manager for close to 4 years and brought me onto her team. ]

            – Macie [Temporary manager because Jane was leaving due to a new job. Jane willingly gave notice. We were not told that Macie was a temporary manager until they found another manager, who turned out to be Mary. However, Macie did announce that going further, communication about things should be directed to Mary]

            – Mary [Who managed a different team in a nearby area and they “tacked on” our team to her workload.]

            On the “nearby team” that Mary had managed, the following managers were in charge from the time I had been brought on. Let’s call them Team W:
            – Pedro [Let go, workload was in over his head. Had a heard time managing the team and the client. Team members would consistently lie and say that they completed tasks they never did.]

            – Lara [Did not have experience in this particular industry but had management experience in a related industry. While I attempted to get along with her, this woman was CRAZY. She would consistently ask us to do things and be vague about the location, such as “in NYC” and not be specific as to where even if she had that information. She thought we were combative for asking. Also created shifts/schedules that were impossible to actually execute the way she had it, due to geography/traffic in the area. When that was brought to her attention, she would simply respond “ok, do the best you can.”]

            – Mary [See current issue. Mary had managed a THIRD team [Team V] for this company and they tacked on this location to her workload too. Mary was manager of all three teams in this area by the time this all ended.]

        2. Yorick*

          Maybe don’t ask about Mary expecting to hear any news, but tell Liza that you had spoken to Mary about working on this project and are happy to continue working on it now.

          1. valentine*

            tell Liza that you had spoken to Mary about working on this project and are happy to continue working on it now.
            Yes. “Mary assigned this to me.” Hopefully, she won’t ask when, or “Last year” will suffice.

    2. Mid*

      Was it an immediate layoff? Or was she notified in mid-Dec and was still working for the company when you texted her?

      Also, I’m very concerned that your company didn’t tell you this. It’s also strange that Mary didn’t tell you, but why is your company letting people who aren’t currently employed by them manage people?

      1. 1234*

        Based on what Brenda told me, it seems as if Mary was laid off back in December. Brenda said someone else at Company reached out to Brenda about something that Brenda was missing, and this was in late December. Normally, Mary would have been the one to reach out if things were missing.

        I feel that the company didn’t “let” Mary manage people even though she was no longer employed there, but because I asked about PROJECT directly, Mary for some reason just said “Sure, you are working on it” which I found insanely odd.

        2. Mid*

          Yeah, that’s very very odd. Also a hush-hush policy with a remote workforce seems like a TERRIBLE idea, for exactly this reason. I don’t really have any other advice, but it is very strange.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          This is a Liza&above problem, not a Mary problem. All of Mary’s reports should have been told immediately who they now report to. Mary should no longer be getting texts about her former role at what must be her personal cell phone.
          Give her the benefit of the doubt—assume she’s been forwarding and replying politely but increasingly more strongly for almost a month. And obviously the word hasn’t gotten out universally. It must be beyond frustrating and I could easily see replying in a way to force management to do something.
          One reason I sympathize with Mary: When I was in college, our home phone# was posted on a local restaurant’s shiny new website and takeout menus. I called to tell them. The manager suggested WE change OUR number, and wasn’t nice about it. Mom managed to track down and speak with the owner in person before her teenager (ie me) started taking reservations & takeout orders. He was mortified and sent us gift certificate apology.

        4. Diahann Carroll*

          She was trying to save face. Maybe she was also trying to appeal her removal, thought she had a good chance to plead her case, and would be welcomed back – if she thought that, she wouldn’t want to tell you she’d been let go, especially if her appeal had worked. That’s the only halfway logical explanation I could think of for why she’d do this.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Did Liza email Mary when she emailed the group?
      Can you ping Mary to see if she is still around? (First hand information and all that.)

      If you can’t get Mary, can you email Liza privately and just say you are confused, as Mary told you last week that you were assigned to it?
      Is it possible that Liza is working on getting someone else to work with you and already knows you are assigned?

      Ugh. Too many questions. Sorry. I would just step through finding the answers. If you really want the project then I would speak up very soon if it were me.

      1. snoopythedog*

        This.
        I would email Liza privately and say you are confused as Mary confirmed on X date that you would be assigned to the project. Reiterate what you told Mary initially (you are excited for it, know the clients) to Liza.

        If Liza is a good grandboss, this question should be enough to prompt her to let you know Mary is gone (if she is) or you can always follow up with “Should I direct questions about this project/management/project procurement to you or Mary in the future?”

      2. 1234*

        Mary was not CCed on the email but another name I had never seen before, Anna, was copied on the emails. I have no idea who Anna could possibly be.

        I ended up responding to Liza and letting her know that I had expressed interest in the project to Mary and had worked with Jane on the same project in previous years. Liza said she would put me on and this morning, I was added to the project in our task management system.

        But I am still in shock that Mary would pretend that she had the authority to assign the project to me…

        1. hbc*

          I feel like you’re focusing a lot on Mary, but her weirdness here is pretty small and only possible with the extraordinary disfunction at this company. There are all kinds of reasons why Mary might have responded the way she did: she never liked you, she wanted to mess with the company, she thought you knew she was gone and you were mocking her, she thought you’d already been assigned, she was confused about which project it was, Brenda is lying and she’s still at the company, she was given layoff notice but is still working in some capacity, etc..

          But analyzing these is beside the point, because any functional workplace does not have you guessing at who your boss is. This is not normal.

          1. Sacred Ground*

            Yeah, my first thought was she was messing with you. And if I were getting texts from people at the company that laid me off, especially if it’s questions that I’d be expected to answer IF I STILL WORKED THERE, I’d probably do the same thing.

            “Sure, you’re assigned to that project.” “Absolutely, go ahead and order those new monitors.” “Of course you can take the week off to groom your parrot, next time don’t bother asking, parrots are important!”

            Maybe next time they lay someone off they’ll know to mention it to that person’s coworkers.

    5. Elenna*

      yiiiiiikes

      I find it weird that Mary tried to assign you the thing, but I find it weirder that Liza started her email with “I don’t know if Mary told you about this” which really sounds like she knows Mary is assigning things?? maybe Mid is right and it wasn’t an immediate layoff???

        1. 1234*

          Not sure, Liza rarely communicates with us unless it’s via email. But I commented to someone else above. I don’t put it past anyone at this company for them to have people just “no longer be our managers”

          Also, I believe this was Mary’s first job out of college and while that is no excuse, maybe she didn’t know how to handle her departure?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Or maybe she was not allowed to handle her departure? Is this a company where people just vanish?

            Where I go to in all this, if Mary has been fair with you right along and this situation does not fit with what you know about Mary, then it is OK to trust that there is more to the story and you are not privy to it.

            For myself, I would saying, “That’s ONE.” Yes, I would start counting MIAs.

            1. 1234*

              It really depends. Jane told us she was leaving. Lara was also laid off and I was told by another colleague but not Lara herself. It was only announced at an in-person meeting when someone asked about Lara.

              While nothing was announced about Pedro, we all knew the issues and someone above Pedro took over managing us, until they hired Lara.

    6. I'm that person*

      It could be that Mary is angry and bitter about not only being fired but that her reports weren’t even made aware of it and pretending that she was still there was her way of getting back at the company.

      1. 1234*

        But that doesn’t hurt the company. That only hurts any direct reports she may have “assigned” projects to.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Oh it certainly stirs the pot. That forces management to do something they should have done previously. Companies really do have to tell their employees when a person leaves — at the very least any employee who takes instruction from the person who has left!
          Look through the archives — Alison’s had letters about things like this before.

        3. Sacred Ground*

          If you end up spending time on something that’s assigned to someone else, the duplicated effort and wasted time costs the company and makes the managers look incompetent to their reports.

    7. designbot*

      Given what you’ve said, I might respond to Liza as if you know no more than you’re meant to know. Like, “oh yes, Mary and I talked about it last week and she said she’d assign me the work since (past experience, interest, etc.)”
      Let Liza sit with the discomfort that her terrible communication decisions have created a situation where an employee is still getting instruction from a boss who’s been fired, because that employee *hasn’t been told their boss is no longer with the company*.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        THIS. It’s 100% professional on your part in case Brenda’s wrong, and returns any awkward right back where it belongs if Liza did lay off Mary without telling Mary’s reports.

      2. 1234*

        I wish I had thought to do this. I just said “Mary and I discussed this previously and I had expressed interest in PROJECT. I am still interested/available.” and Liza put me on the project.

        I see others who are also assigned to PROJECT in our system but it’s about half the amount of people that is needed. I am actually surprised that more haven’t volunteered. In years past when Jane was in charge, it appeared that many people on the team wanted to work on PROJECT because the work was enjoyable. Jane even had to decline some help because so many of us volunteered.

    8. Armchair Analyst*

      RED FLAG. Start job searching.

      Ask me how I know.

      “How do you know?” Because at Previous Job, the process changed when people were… let go/fired/quit/gone: At first there was a one-line email with the fact. But then it changed to NOTHING. NO email, no telling, NOTH. ING. AND one of my tasks was giving an orientation to New Hires. So, literally, on a Monday morning, I am telling 5 (5!) new hires about how to report safety issues to their manager Donald…. and they tell me that JUST heard from HR that they should actually be reporting to Mike, that Donald was ‘no longer there’.

      Not only that…. but Donald was managing one of my projects. And NO ONE EVER TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GONE. There was a new semi-manager of the project, but that was it.

      I never said anything. Why bring attention to myself when I hated the job and the tasks and yes, the way of communicating. So yes, I did start searching for new jobs. Shortly after that, I was let go… but it has all worked out since then. My point is: Companies be crazy. Save yourself.

    9. Joie*

      I’d pick up the phone and say “Liza, I spoke to Mary about this last week and she said I was already assigned, any updates on what you want me to do?” and let her explain it to you.

      This is honestly such a weird situation I’m wondering if Brenda was mistaken on the timeline for Mary’s departure. If not, let Liza have the privileged of experiencing the sheer awkwardness first hand of why you shouldn’t withhold layoff information from relevant people…

    10. Buttons*

      OMG that is crazy!!! I cannot believe Liza didn’t tell the entire team! I am sure Mary was annoyed at getting a text, and was messing with you– although it totally isn’t your fault you didn’t know.

    11. 1234*

      Another update: I/We just received an email from Liza stating that either herself of Anna (the other person Liza copied and I still have NO IDEA what she does or who she is) will have more details about PROJECT either later today or early next week. It does not address Mary’s departure nor who Anna is/what her role is.

      I also have a feeling that at this company, managers are supposed to let their own staff know that they are no longer with the company but some managers don’t. Usually, someone will ask at the next in-person meeting “What happened to so and so?” and whomever in charge at the time will usually briefly explain it like “laid off” or “no longer with the company.”

      I know some of you mentioned to make it awkward for Liza regarding Mary’s departure but there is a chance (small chance, but still a chance) that by doing that, Liza will take me off PROJECT. Yes, people really are that vindictive.

        1. 1234*

          I think it’s more ingrained into our culture; we are on a need-to-know basis. The only thing we need to know right now is information that pertains to PROJECT. It does not matter who is providing that information and asking questions can be seen as an “annoyance” to people who are already very busy, such as Liza.

          2. Avasarala*

            Your company culture is super weird and giving off all sorts of weird vibes. Who your coworkers are and what their role is is not a need-to-know classified thing. Asking questions like “who is this person and what is their role in PROJECT” should not be an annoyance and you shouldn’t be punished for it. People should be informed when their bosses are let go and told who their new boss is… this is basic stuff man!

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Wait, isn’t there an online company directory where you can look up Anna?

          I mean, I get that they might not have it updated with Mary’s departure, but usually there’s some guide on where the new person has worked before…

          1. 1234*

            We don’t have that information, unfortunately. Anna also just emailed us but there was no signature/contact info.

            1. learnedthehardway*

              Maybe try looking her up on LinkedIn to figure out who she is, or contact your company’s switchboard to get her title?

              Heck, maybe give Anna a call to introduce yourself, because she probably has no idea who you are, either.

              1. Rebecca1*

                Something similar happened to me at a former job. I eventually quit. It apparently got worse after that.

    12. Tris Prior*

      It’s super weird that Mary assigned you work when she doesn’t even work there.

      But, as far as being notified of the layoff – that sort of thing happens at my company sometimes. We had a big layoff recently. Some upper management was laid off sooner than everyone else, but they weren’t allowed to tell anyone or else they wouldn’t receive their (often very large) severance pay. It’s common for managers to have remote reports here, and to not be super communicative – so many people were running around with no direct supervisor for a couple weeks *and had no idea.*

      So maybe Mary wasn’t allowed to say “sorry, I’ve been laid off, can’t help you.” But then…. why not just answer? I dunno, that bit’s weird

    13. Donna*

      my jaw is on the floor, how do you not tell people when you fire their boss. When did they plan to tell you, if ever?

      And why did mary not say anything when you messaged her, WTF????? How was she like “okay, you got the job”, but she no longer has the job to assign stuff!?!?!?

      This is crazy, the lack of communication worries me. But if you really want to work on the project, i would just say ” Mary said i could do the project, and never got around to sending the details”. Because technically that is true, just don’t tell anybody when she said it, lol.

    14. SomebodyElse*

      Here’s what I think happened. Mary and Liza agreed at some point you were going to be assigned to PROJECT before Mary was laid off.

      Mary assumed you had been told that she was no longer your boss and thought it was weird when you texted her after her last day. She knew from before her last day you were on deck so just passed on that msg from her prior knowledge.

      1. 1234*

        I only asked about PROJECT at the beginning of the year. Before I asked, I can almost guarantee you that nobody was thinking about PROJECT, much less staff assignments.

        Based on what Brenda said (someone else asking Brenda about unfinished work when Mary should be the one doing that, calling Brenda crying about being laid off, Mary telling Brenda that Mary had things to “wrap up”), it didn’t seem likely that Mary still had the authority to assign anything at the beginning of the year.

        2. Martin*

          Just a thought, but are you absolutely sure that the emails supposedly from Mary actually came from her?
          Maybe they were from someone else at the company who took over her email when she left and was trying for a while to maintain the pretence that she was still employed there.

          1. 1234*

            That would be all kinds of messed up if that were true. While Liza may be a bad communicator, I don’t believe that she would do that with Mary’s email and “pretend” to be Mary. I actually haven’t heard from Mary for most of December (not uncommon) and the last assignment I had from Mary was from the first week of December. I communicate with Mary mostly through texting and I’ve only had one phone number for her, and it’s her personal cell phone number. (My Company is also very focused on cost cutting so I highly doubt they’re providing company phones) After my projects wrapped up the first week, I hadn’t heard much from Mary.

            Brad, another manager, also has work to go around and him and Mary share some of the same direct reports. So, Brad was keeping everyone busy from what I understand.

  4. Friday*

    Recently, I found out that a co-worker and I are being paid the same (she told me herself). We are on the same level in the company, but she has 2-3 years of experience and started a year ago in the company, while I have 7 years of experience and started 3 years ago.

    It’s…not a nice feeling, to put it mildly. But I know it’s my fault because I likely low-balled myself at the beginning and have also never asked for a raise. Taking inflation into account, I’m making the same as I was on my first day at the company. And it’s not like I accomplished nothing during my time here – quite the opposite, actually. I’ve consistently received very positive feedback from my manager.

    I have my performance review next week and want to ask for a raise. But I’m not sure how to approach this. A year ago, I played a key role in a large, highly visible project and received praise for my contributions. Flash forward to today, however, and I think my performance has gone down a bit as I fight feelings of bitterness and apathy. The timing is definitely not ideal, but I still want to ask for a raise.

    Anyway, advice on how to approach this would be so appreciated. I’ll talk about my contributions, but should I focus on that alone? Should I mention that I’m essentially making the same as I was on my first day? The intel about my co-worker and I being paid the same – should I somehow bring that into the conversation or leave it out?

    (Bonus question: Personality-wise, I’m very quiet and introverted. How can someone—especially a woman—be less “quiet” in the corporate world?)

    1. kittymommy*

      (Bonus question: Personality-wise, I’m very quiet and introverted. How can someone—especially a woman—be less “quiet” in the corporate world?)

      -Eagerly waiting for suggestions! I am not good at this and also tend to be a “sticker” i.e I will stay put in a job longer than I probably should due to a lot of reasons, mainly I hate change in my work life and fear.

      1. Auntie Social*

        You’re not “quiet and introverted.” You’re self-sufficient, strong, dignified, and never give anyone a lick of trouble. You wouldn’t complain if you were on fire.

        2. Sam Buca*

          My former employee was a bit of a quiet/introverted working conflict avoidance person (personality wise he would talk to people). This was something I challenged him to change because it was affecting his work efficiency. Rather than “giving someone a lick of trouble” he would grin and bear it vs. confront the person/team who was making his work take hours when it should have been 30 minutes. As I would learn about issues, I would step in and ask the team/manager to work on the problems. Being quiet and not troublesome was a ding he had against him because it was affecting his work output.

          The people who I respect most (women and men) are not afraid to ask questions/lead the conversation in directions that will help them.

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Not every manager is willing the step in. And not every employee has that kind of support. You sound like a good boss.

            Speaking up for myself on my current job only got me grief from my previous manager. She played favorites, was new to management when I started, and I guess you’d call her conflict avoidant. Her favorites would “go off on her” (ex-boss’s term) if she told them to do something they didn’t want to do, or they’d just ignore her. I’ve often thought she came down on me so much because I was about the only one who took her seriously.

      2. hope this helps!*

        This might actually work to your advantage. Ask for what you want then stop talking.
        Some of my more extroverted friends find this a lot harder since they want to fill the silence with justifications/apologies/small talk.

        Idk, I’m pretty quiet too and I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. I make points and suggestions in meetings. For the most part, people pay attention since when I do speak it’s intentional and I know exactly what I’m talking about and get my work done well.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you have any sense of how compensation at your company works in general? It is really just whatever you ask for? Are there certain “levels” or tiers of pay on a scale based on certain discrete criteria? While it may feel unfair to you, some workplaces do not necessarily automatically (or even if you ask for it) give people a higher salary based on years of experience. If you’re both at the same level, they may just think it makes sense you get the same pay.

      That said, if you think you’re underpaid, you should talk to your manager about what steps you can take to get a raise (or a higher level) in the near future. Don’t bring up your co-worker’s pay. Learning about that may help you get a perspective, but that shouldn’t be your case for getting a raise.

    3. Mid*

      Alison has several posts on this! The gist is focus on your specific accomplishments (not your coworkers pay, not your personal expenses), have a number in mind (so don’t say “I want a raise” but know what exactly you want, either a percentage or a specific amount), and know the norms for your company (though if you haven’t gotten a raise in 7 years, and company norm is no more than 5%, you might be able to negotiate higher than that 5%).

    4. ThatGirl*

      I don’t know if it’s really that weird for you to be paid the same – especially if your coworker advocated for herself and you haven’t. I mean, I get feeling hurt, for sure. It doesn’t feel amazing. But I would use this as an opportunity to do that advocacy for yourself. I would focus on your accomplishments from the past year and have a number in mind.

    5. Toss a coin to your Witcher*

      I did this a few months ago! Found out I was being paid 20k less than my male counterpart (same job function), who was not as successful as me (nice guy, just super into doing the bare minimum), and who had less experience in the company.

      I normally would have set up a meeting with my direct manager, but she had recently left the company, so I ended up meeting with the department VP and our HR contact. I stuck to the facts: the pay disparity, my glowing performance reviews, and basically phrased it like, “This is a disparity, and I want it to be corrected.” No emotions, no “I don’t feel valued”; just “here’s my work; here’s my counterpart’s work. There should not be a disparity in pay and I would like this corrected, please and thank you.”

      It turned out great – though not what I had hoped for. They were like, “yes, we see this, we want to retain you, and here is a 20k bonus check, and while we can’t raise your salary right now in the midst of a merger, this will be top of mind for performance reviews in 4 months.”

      I walked out thinking I had fought the man and won. Then the government took 50% of my bonus check (because it was a bonus, *not* a salary increase) in taxes. HR held firm on not being able to raise my salary in the midst of a merger. I get it!

      So I smiled, agreed…worked hard…and applied elsewhere with the knowledge that I deserved 20k more than I was making…and it turns out it was super easy to find jobs in my area that offered that salary. (I also used Alison’s book, How to get a job, for tips on interviewing and negotiating.

      I hope you get your raise at your company, and if not, please take your new knowledge of your worth gift with you on your job search :)

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Great success story! I do have one nitpick…

        It’s a little disingenuous to say the government took 50% of your bonus check. While it’s true bonuses are taxed at a higher threshold, you should’ve been able to recoup that money on your tax return unless you have other variable comp to take into consideration.

        1. Toss a coin to your Witcher*

          what is this tax magic you speak of? I need to know.
          I’m married (file jointly), no dependents, and don’t have any exemptions. Last year I got $1k back, which I was happy with (never got any $$$ back before – thanks, Trump??? ugh). Anticipating the same amount this year, and not sure how I could recoup 9k in bonus $$$.

          1. ThatGirl*

            It’s not really magic – the withholding is higher, but it’s treated as ordinary income, which means you’ll probably get a slightly higher refund to make up for the higher withholding.

        2. Spreadsheets and Books*

          Yes! Bonuses are taxed at a higher rate upon payout but are treated as ordinary income on your tax return. So unless your average tax rate is higher than the withholding rate for bonuses or you have untaxed income (like self-employment income) to factor in, you should see some of that come back to you at tax time.

            1. Spreadsheets and Books*

              Or at a flat rate. Bonuses are often taxed at a flat “supplemental” rate of 25%.

      2. Enginear*

        This is one of the reasons why I like and dislike bonuses. At first you’re super excited at the number cause it’s nice and big and then when you get your check you see half of it is gone :( Glad everything worked out in the end!

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          If your job is bonused, you can also check into whether you’re allowed to defer any of it into your 401k and defer taxes until you withdraw it at retirement, when it’ll be taxed as ordinary income.

      4. Artemesia*

        You don’t pay higher taxes on a bonus instead of salary — the timing may be different but it is all income from the company.

    6. S-Mart*

      The info about your coworker making the same is only relevant if you’re doing substantially more and/or more challenging work – which you don’t mention but is reasonable if your more experienced. Either way, I would focus on the contributions/accomplishments, which should have been increasing over time if a raise is justified.

      Frankly, if your performance has gone down recently – especially if it’s enough to be noticeable to your boss – selling the case for a raise is going to be really hard.

      As for being less quiet, what’s worked for me is (1) being really good at what I do, to the point that I’ve become the logical person for people to come to with questions, (2) writing my comments on concerns in emails (I’m terrible at holding my own in a large conversation, but in email threads I have time to craft my words and nobody is talking over me), and (3) keeping a running list of things I want to talk about my manager with, and bringing it with me to each 1:1 (I’d never remember to come up with all of them ‘on the spot’ so to speak, but referring to a list is easier).

      1. 867-5309*

        I think you raise a good point in your first sentence. Having more experience than someone doesn’t in and of itself justify a higher salary, especially for the same role.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I’d leave the co-worker’s salary out of it. It doesn’t sound like your company has set salaries for years of experience so this is not “unfair” under your company’s salary system.

      Since you haven’t gotten a salary increase since you started, you can leverage everything you’ve done for them so far and how far you’ve come in 3 years to advocate for a pay raise. Include that key role in a large, highly visible project.

      1. Marthooh*

        “Taking inflation into account, I’m making the same as I was on my first day at the company.” Say exactly that to your manager, and mention all your accomplishments and the value you’ve brought to the company. Go in with a generous dollar amount or percentage increase to start the negotiation. Don’t talk about your coworker or your feelings of bitterness and apathy.

    8. Disgruntled and Anon*

      Isn’t it weird how that feels? I just found out that a former coworker (both female) makes about the same that I did when I was there ( just left last month). We had different jobs/titles and while on paper they could be considered on par the reality is that my role was much more senior. We have the same degree but I have about a decade more experience than her.
      While I don’t begrudge her the good salary I am also suddenly resentful! Making it even weirder…I never felt underpaid while I was there (several title promotions and good salary bumps) but now feel undervalued since my position was much more critical and was viewed as a “step up” for her. I also know she didn’t negotiate at the start of her position since it was internal and those are capped.
      Its an icky feeling since I am happy she makes a good wage but also feel resentful of it. I also know my resentment should be towards the company not her but my first thought when I read that text was “guess I won’t be buying her lunch tomorrow like I’d planned”. Currently slightly disgusted with myself (and yes I did buy lunch).

    9. Mkt*

      Wow, I empathize so much- had to double check that I didn’t post this in my sleep earlier myself.

      I’ve become disappointed in the company for not being more proactive in not ‘rewarding’ hard work and contributions in a meaningful way that basically means longer term employees end up making less and less than any new hire to the same team with substantially less experience/expertise.

      Focus on yourself and your contributions, and then take that knowledge and hope to find a company that is aligned on your worth and can pay salary you believe is fair.

    10. Althea*

      The approach I am taking in a similar position is to research outside comparables and consider what I’d name as a range if I was being hired for the job as an external candidate. I’m in finance, so I can also compare to internal salaries, but I used that only as a reality check and don’t plan to talk about it all that much unless pushed. I do have a similar situation myself. Coworker, same position, several years less experience, has less projects, and I basically mentor her through things, but we’re making almost the same. In my case, they are about to differentiate our positions by giving me a direct report. For you, perhaps you could also argue that your positions are different (your key project that coworker was not a part of) and should be further differentiated?

      I’m not sure what other folks are talking about when they say experience doesn’t play into the salary. I’ve never heard anyone in HR say this, in fact, I’ve quite often heard that a person hired to similar roles gets a higher salary because they come in with more experience. However, when talking about it with your manager, I’d probably talk about the ways your experience makes you valuable and improves your performance, rather than counting on it as a guarantee.

      1. S-Mart*

        Not in HR but am a manager. More experience may help justify a higher starting salary, because it’s a shortcut that helps me have confidence I can give you harder projects, or you’ll work faster, or need less oversight, etc. Once you’ve worked for me for six months or so, I’m much more focused on what I know you can do. If somebody with eight years of experience and somebody with two years of experience are doing the same work to the same quality at the same rate, etc then they are equally valuable to me, and are compensated as such.

    11. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Regarding being on the quiet, introverted side, I think it’s best to just be yourself. If you try to be vivacious when you aren’t, you’ll just be uncomfortable and it will show. You have a lot to offer and are valuable the way you are.

      When I was new at ex-job, My first week consisted of a week-long team summit. As the new person, I was pretty quiet, but still friendly and pleasant, and made conversation as appropriate. Most new people are pretty quiet at first until they become more comfortable in their new job. It wasn’t anything out of the ordinary. But then our self-appointed hall monitor type decided to make it a Thing and asked me “are you okaaaaay? You’re SO quiiiiiiet!” She wouldn’t let it go. (Was I expected to dance on the tables?) That made me feel really uncomfortable and judged even though I hadn’t done anything wrong- extra stress I didn’t need my first week at a new job. I’m glad that I now work with people who accept me for who I am and don’t have to put up with her anymore.

    12. HiItsHaley*

      Bonus question answer: There’s a podcast called Battle Tactics for Your Sexist Workplace:
      https://www.npr.org/podcasts/615851215/battle-tactics-for-your-sexist-workplace.

      The title sounds a lot more intense than the nature of the podcast actually is. Each week has different struggles (usually women) face in the workplace and then ways to improve those situations (tactics) for you to take into your workplace. It goes well with Ask A Manager on how to handle tricky workplace situations or how to speak up.

  5. Katniss Evergreen*

    I’m finally feeling more motivated at work after spending quite a while struggling with a lack of definition to the knowledge management benchmarking project I was doing with my org’s shared drive and knowledge sharing resources. Now that I know where everything lives and have started working with people to archive what is definitely old or irrelevant and delete what’s useless, I feel so much better and have started working faster toward my subsequent goals with this project.

    What’s your favorite thing that happened at work this week?

    1. merp*

      This is really mundane but it’s a big deal to me: I actually spent all week at work getting caught up after/during a complicated personal crisis at home. I finally asked for help with home stuff (oof, it’s hard, y’all) and it freed me up to a) consistently make it to work and b) not spend all day thinking about what disasters might be happening at home.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      That’s awesome! I had the opportunity to assist a different company with a technology transition that I did last year. I really want to get into training & development and this was really cool for me to do!

    3. Adlib*

      This week I got to learn more about SQL while troubleshooting an issue with an ERP system I was configuring. Today I made the marketing manager’s month (probably) by getting a sweet set of Power BI reports configured the way she wanted it AND setting up a new feature in our CRM done for her team before she rolls it out next week! Otherwise, it’s been horribly slow, but it’s Friday, and I’m going to see Knives Out again tonight!

    4. Zephy*

      Isn’t it nice to get your feet under you?

      For me, steps are being taken to massively simplify and streamline a process that I’m part of. There’s a document that I process that needs to be signed by 4 people, and we’re finally dragging ourselves into the 21st century and setting up DocuSign for it. I’m cautiously optimistic, because someone asked a higher-up about it and now he feels like he needs to be involved and could potentially seriously derail it for no good reason, but if that goes smoothly then it’ll be great for me. Fingers crossed!

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        So with you on dragging ourselves into the 21st century – in my case I’m struggling with getting people to the very beginning of the 21st century (e.g. I’m writing an email to senior staff in my office with the words “if you’re not currently using the shared drive for most of your documents, now’s the time to start!”).

        Good luck!!

    5. Lynx*

      I am getting used to fully being in my new role! This is the first week I’ve had where I haven’t had to do any tasks for my old role. We have someone in one of the seats for the old role, but as it’s technically enough work for 2 people (the job heavily varies in work load from week to week), I’m expected to jump in & help with the old role as needed.

      It’s been blissfully quiet on that front, so I’ve had a lot of time to catch up with my new set of tasks & really get my 2020 plan off to a good start.

    6. OhGee*

      My grandboss got a new assistant who many of us are really excited about, after months without an assistant.

    8. Mkt*

      I had 1-on-1 with my grandboss to talk about my (now retired) manager’s role. It was a difficult conversation that I left feeling angry and disappointed with, but in hindsight was very necessary to put into perspective things I’ve been on the fence about for months.

      I feel like a load has been lifted, and can begin to move forward guilt free now.

    10. Boba Feta*

      Had a joint meeting with the department lead in which all the ideas that my colleague and I have worked so hard to develop over the last term were not only accepted but done so without pushback or compromises we weren’t already willing to concede.

      But as a matter of fact, I think the amount of surprise at this outcome is directly proportional to how much we had built up or assumed there would be problems, so I’m taking that meeting as a sign we need to adjust some of our assumptions about the kinds of things our lead is trying to accomplish or manage, what with being between a rock (upper management) and a hard place (the subject-matter experts for each sub-program, e.g. us).

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        Yay! Fingers crossed that keeps going well for you guys and you can shift your perspective to something a little more optimistic, if that occurs!

    11. Jean*

      Happy that things are going better for you! It makes such a huge difference in the day-to-day as well as the overall goal picture.

      This week I got a great shout-out from my boss about the quality improvement that’s taken place since I took over a major key account back in Sept. The quality incident rate has gone down 84%, which means a lot less annoying corrective work for everyone on both sides. Feels pretty good to be recognized for my attention to detail. I’ve gotten a lot of flak for my “nitpickery” over the years, but I guess it does come in handy sometimes. LOL

    12. The Rat-Catcher*

      I’ve written about the massive reorg of my department that has been dragging out for months. Well, we had an, ahem, extremely sudden change of leadership and I had assumed this would put the conversation off even more. But yesterday I met our new director and he assured me (without any prompting from me) that my department’s future was the very first thing on his agenda – he literally has meetings scheduled today to start getting decisions made. This is such a relief after months of indecision.

    13. Clever Name*

      Best work-related thing this week was my 3-year-old asking, “How was your day at work, Mom? Was it a little bit stupid?”

    14. Retail not Retail*

      I was able to start the backpack blower on my own like four times – usually i need a guy for the pull cord (that upper body strength!). We got pizza on tuesday enough for lunch leftovers on Wednesday.

      I pet a goat.

        1. Retail not Retail*

          I can pet the goats almost every work day if i’m not lazy but it’s always easier when we work by them to get a few scratches in. I didn’t know until this winter that some goats get winter coats! So they are so fluffy and soft. The donkeys are too but they snub me most of the time.

    15. Chronic Overthinker*

      Best thing that happened this week was a formerly frosty co-worker has changed their attitude and they’re actually bordering on nice with all of our interactions. It’s really helped my morale knowing that they’re treating me like part of the team instead of the “new person.” I know it’s mundane, but it feels really good.

    17. MuchNope*

      I finally realized that working with the same people, in academia, for over a decade is like a forced group marriage on a desert island. The work has its ups & downs, but having to manage so many relationships that have no direct relationship to my work is enough reason to want out.

    18. Thorisa*

      Congrats! We’re working (slowly) on a similar project at my office.

      My biggest thing was being asked to replace a former coworker at a national conference later this year! I’ll get to do sort of a mini-presentation while I’m there. Super excited, as it’s my first conference, and my office only sends folks who are presenting. It’s an awesome opportunity!

    19. So I says to Mabel*

      For years, my department has talked about implementing something which is done by other parts of the organization but the process they use is very complicated and we have not had the time/resources to properly understand it (and find out whether there is a simpler way).
      This week, I have been working on understanding it and doing a skeleton version of it by looking through guides and yesterday, I succeeded in doing it. It might be a small thing but I find that it is a really good start.

  6. Teapot Translator*

    Mature student thread?
    Has the new semester started for you? How are you anticipating the whole work/study/life balance?

    1. Teapot Translator*

      The winter semester started this week. We have so much reading to do and I already feel like I’m behind schedule. I need to do better with sleep because it feels like I’ll soon be playing catch up on that front as well.
      What’s your preferred format for note taking? I prefer handwritten, but it is more time consuming and I don’t know if it’s worth it (i.e. if my brain retains more information when I write by hand).

      1. Elenna*

        (Caveat, I’m a 23-year-old who just graduated from undergrad, not a mature student)

        IMO “more time consuming” isn’t necessarily a bad thing? It depends how exactly you do it, but if you need to summarize the prof’s notes or what they’re saying in order to write it down fast enough, the act of thinking about it to summarize should help retain information.

        That being said, I typed all my notes because my handwriting is awful and if I hand-wrote them my hand would have hurt every day and I wouldn’t be able to read them again a week later. (I was also in math, so I got very familiar with Word’s equation mode. Probably should have learned LaTeX but I never got around to it and Word was plenty fast enough for me. Almost too fast, I had a bad habit of writing notes, surfing the net for a few minutes, and then catching back up on notes based on what was written on the board.)

        1. TurkeyLurkey*

          If it helps, I find LaTeX super useful for writing papers, project writeups with equations, etc., but find it too be too fussy for note taking during lectures and reading.

        2. Teapot Translator*

          Ah ha ha, I had to revise documents in LaTeX in a previous job. I hated it! I liked the colleagues, hated the format.
          I take handwritten notes in class because I went to university first time 20 years ago. But I have to take notes from the compulsory reading. That’s where I’m ambivalent.

        3. Dr. Doll*

          Get the best of both worlds: Take your notes in class or on initial readings by keyboarding, as detailed as you please, then go back and make yourself a highlights summary or a metacognitive summary in handwriting.

        4. Feline Fine*

          My class starts on Monday, but I just got notice from the ethics review board that they have questions about my application. So I will be spending my weekend updating that. It needs to be approved before I can do my research this term.

          This term doesn’t seem to have as much required reading as last term. I’ve been doing this part time while working full time. I’m so looking forward to being done in June!

      2. KR*

        I love handwritten notes but pre-arthritis has made it a slow process for years. I have recently accepted that I can’t afford the time to hand write all my notes and must type them.

        1. Teapot Translator*

          There’s that, too. My hands start to hurt when I write too long. But it’s always been that way. Maybe I hold my pens too tight?

          1. KR*

            I always thought it was something I was doing to cause the hand pain and it turns out it was the beginnings of arthritis. Makes me feel old at 25. Hope your hands are ok.

      3. twig*

        I find that I retain better when I take notes by hand. The physical act of forming the words somehow embeds it in my brain better than just typing.

        I try to take notes in class/training by hand, then type them up into a OneNote notebook that evening/afternoon to cement the ideas and record them in a manner that is more easily readable — and I’m not stuck trying to remember what my abbreviations mean months down the road when It’s time to study.

        you can also scan your written notes with your phone (I use office lens — it’s an MS product and integrates well with word, OneNote etc) to save in your One Note as well.

        1. Teapot Translator*

          I take handwritten notes in class. My hesitation is more for the reading notes. But! All this discussion reminds that this would be a great opportunity to buy colour pencils and have fun! I could then scan the notes to have a backup.

      4. DrR*

        I’m an English professor and believe that taking notes by hand will improve retention significantly. I’ve read about the way the brain has to filter and prioritize because taking notes by hand is slower and also that more of the brain is involved when writing by hand. They said, in some circumstances: courses / meetings, typing notes makes sense. Side note: I love my mature students. Good luck this semester.

        1. Teapot Translator*

          Thanks.!
          Ah literature. My first degree was in literature (not English). I miss it now that I’m doing a certificate in law.

        2. Chrome*

          I agree, for most people taking notes by hand leads to better retention. I’m not an exception to that, but I still choose to take notes by computer. I have atrocious handwriting to the point I can’t read it myself without context cues, so I sacrifice a small amount of retention in favor of not having to completely redo my notes come exam time, haha.

      5. Platypus Enthusiast*

        I graduated last May, but I’m still taking one class per semester because my job has a tuition benefit (its about a class/semester, except for fees associated with the class), and my experience was that I learnt more when I handwrote things, except I had trouble catching all the important concepts because the professor would move on. When I typed, I captured more, but retained less (and was also easily distracted because the internet was too easily accessible), and I ended to overestimate how much I retained. If your professor uses powerpoints for lectures, I would print them out- if you use Microsoft Powerpoint to print out 3 slides/page, there’s handy little lines for notetaking to the right of each slide. I found that was ideal in terms of retention/notetaking.

      6. CastIrony*

        My sister used to use erasable colored pencils and pencils to highlight and write on printed articles and textbooks to accompany notes she wrote in class.

      7. Berrin*

        Get an iPad with an Apple Pencil and a keyboard. You can take handwritten notes using the GoodNotes app. I like that I can hand write notes (I do for sure retain it more handwriting), but also type if needed, plus it doesn’t really make my hand hurt. I have a wrist injury so normal writing gets quite painful and I get cramps.

        I also like using digital textbooks (they have an eversion of most books), so I don’t have to Schlepp anything to work and can still read and do homework on my lunch break or on my way home.

        Of course it’s more expensive than a regular notebook, but I was pleasantly surprised at the total cost. I just got the regular iPad, not pro – I don’t think that’s necessary for note taking and watching lecture videos.

      8. Horseshoe*

        I bought myself a Remarkable tablet in anticipation of going back to college this semester.

        You can handwrite notes and it OCRs to text. I haven’t used the OCR much, but as a note-taking kind of person, it’s super nice having dozen notebooks contained in one device.

        There is definitely research to show you retain more if you write by hand vs type because of the slower speed. I heard that if you learn to write really fast (i.e. in shorthand), you lose the memory benefits, since it is the going slower that seems to help, more than the physical act of handwriting.

    2. ceiswyn*

      Aaaaaaaaargh.

      I entirely failed to catch up over Christmas like I meant to do, I have zero energy (‘I have just made an appointment with my doctor to discuss this’ levels of zero energy), and the studying I did on Wednesday night seems to have gone in one eye and out the other. I anticipate a lot of last-minute panic and submitting work that doesn’t meet my perfectionist standards…

      1. Teapot Translator*

        No panic. I won’t panic if you don’t panic? And we can tell our perfectionists to take a hike?

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Mine also started this week. My class includes a lot of phd students, but it’s a Masters level class, so that’s intimidating. I also feel very behind on the reading (the prof seems to be assigning 70-100 pages per week, along with “extra FYI reading” which I know the phds will be reading). There are only 5-6 of us out of 16 who work full-time; everyone else is taking classes full time. So I don’t know how this is going to go :/

      1. DrN*

        The PhD students will be demonstrating that they’re doing the reading because knowing how to do that is crucial for them.
        They’re probably speed readers with good strategies for efficiency. Look into speed reading, take strategic notes, make sure to have alert comments and volunteer them so as to give the impression it high preparation and engagement. Hashtag I have a PhD.

      2. Teapot Translator*

        That’s the amount of reading I have to do, but it’s for an undergraduate certificate. It’s a mandatory class, so the class is full. I don’t feel the pressure to contribute. I’m a newbie and I plan on acting like a newbie.
        The teacher also put some extra reading. Hah, not doing that. I shall leave that to the eager students with lots of energy.

      3. Dr. KMnO4*

        If the reading is journal articles then read the abstract, skim the introduction, and read the results & discussion. If it’s chapters in a book, skim as much as you can. Once you figure out what the professor is going to be looking for/what you are going to be assessed on you can make more informed decisions on how much reading you actually need to do in full. That’s how I approached reading-heavy courses in my PhD program and it worked well for me.

      4. Platypus Enthusiast*

        In my masters classes, we usually had a handful of PhD students, but there was one where the majority were PhD students and honestly, I was really, really intimidated, so I totally understand. But all the professors who I’ve spoken with have different expectations for masters students than PhD students, so try not to compare yourself with them. Good luck! :)

    4. Mimmy*

      I was just accepted and admitted into a Masters program (my second Masters, my third graduate-level program…yup, I’m nuts lol). It is completely online and our classes start on the 27th. I’m taking two courses.

      Work / study balance – Although I did very well in my last online program (2014-2016), I struggled with coming up with efficient study strategies. I’m hoping to work on that this time around. I currently work 3 days a week, which I think will be somewhat helpful with time management. (I am looking for a new job, hopefully another part-time one and preferably related to the degree I’m pursuing.).

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Wow. I tried to do a Master years ago. Bad idea. Now I have a mental block. Even if a master was useful in my field, I’m not sure I’d do one.
        Good luck with the new program!

    5. Justin*

      Starts later this month. I will somehow be working (maybe at a new job in march), studying, and being a dad. Yikes.

      My only hope is to take very good care of myself so I have the energy to do everything.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^Same balance; all online classes for me and much of it stuff that is very “check the box” for me, so I expect that to be helpful. I spend three hours total daily commuting – on public transportation – so really my plan is to put a whole bunch of it there, and do more “we are all in here working on homework together” hangs with the kids. At this point I’m just anxious for Jan 27th to get here!

        1. Teapot Translator*

          Yeah, there’s a stress in waiting to know what the semester will look like required reading, evaluation method used).

          1. Ginger Baker*

            ^This! It’s hard to allocate time to projects/papers when I don’t know yet for sure what they will be. Especially as I am still considering signing up for another class (because this semester in particular is all classes very simple for me with one exception).

      2. Teapot Translator*

        Wow! Lots on your plate. I think it’s important to prioritize and accept that not everything will get done.

    6. KR*

      New semester this week. It’s already going bad. I’m just so busy at work that the last thing I want to do when I get home is look at a computer. And I have so much work right now that I need to do some of it at home on the weekends but I also have to do school. I just want to get my degree so bad. My company offers amazing tuition benefits, enough that I don’t have to pay anything as long as I get Cs or better. I just have to fit it around my work which is nonstop.

    7. Bunny Girl*

      Our quarter just started. It’s going okay. Luckily I have a lot of downtime at work and my boss is totally fine with me doing school work during the work day so it helps A LOT. My only complaint is I just finished a required class last quarter that was just really un-inspiring. Totally reading focused and one of those classes that no one really needs but is a requirement to graduate with my degree anyway. I was happy to get it done, only to start my classes and find out I have ANOTHER one just like it. I’ll be happy when this part of my degree is over and I can move more into my specialization. We started out taking a bunch of those “personality” quizzes. I’m happy it’s on online class so my professor can’t see my eyes rolling into the back of my head.

    8. twig*

      First: You’ve got this!

      When I was an undergrad, traditional student (ie straigh out of high school to college) my favorite people in my classes were the non-traditional students– you have more experience, different insight than those who go straight to college from high school. Your contributions to class discussions are unique and valuable

    9. Lady Jay*

      New semester started this week! It’s my last semester of coursework (unless I take a summer course, kinda tempted TBH) before comprehensives this fall. Yikes.

      Definitely need to block out more time on weekends for personal rest. I’ve been back in school for 18 mos or so now, and while I really like the research/teaching that comes with my program, I’ve noticed that my energy for various tasks is trickling away, along with the ability to commit to things (the more anxious I am, the more trouble I have making decisions or moving forward in a meaningful way). Haven’t figured out *how* I will do this yet, but it’s one of my goals for the spring semester.

    10. Eshrai*

      I am starting some IT classes next week. I’m a bit nervous…have to have a babysitter to go. I am hoping I haven’t taken on too much. Only taking 1-2 classes, but I also work full time and am a troop leader for my daughters daisy troop. On the bright side daisys dont do as much as the older girls…but going into cookie season lol. Good luck with your classes!

    11. QueenoftheCats*

      I wasn’t a mature student but I did work part-time while in grad school and before that as an academic advisor.

      -Keep a planner, Google calendar, etc
      -Don’t be afraid to break up work. Have 75pgs to read before the next class? You can break up the work by pgs/day or read 10pgs, switch to another task, and then read 10 more.
      -As soon as you get your essay topic, schedule an appointment with the writing center before the due date. In this way, you’ll have leeway and a second pair of eyes. (In my case, I pulled my all-nighters a few days before the due date, as opposed to the night of. Lol)
      -You’re not going to hit all you’re academic tasks for the day/week/month. That’s okay. Take a breather. Look at your schedule and rework it.
      -At least for me, my social life took a nosedive in grad school. I realized that maintaining a social life can be just as time consuming as work and study life AND just as important

      Good luck with the semester!

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Your last point, that’s what I’m struggling with. I want to have the time to see friends and exercise! *sigh*

        1. QueenoftheCats*

          Tabata and HIIT exercises (usually 7-20 minutes) have become integral in my life because of school. Also, I did a lot of reading on the stationary bikes.

          Having a social life is super important, ESPECIALLY when you are super stressed. In fact, don’t look at it as a competition to working and studying but rather a compliment to these other facets of your life. I’ve always felt better after skyping friends, calling my parents, and going out. It gave me an opportunity to stop running in circles, refocus my energy into something more productive (hanging out with friends was far more productive than repeating “OMG OMG” and pacing around the place), and come back with a fresh mind. Now, there were times where I was like “I can’t even with humans now,” which is totally fine. You need time for yourself, too, away from everything else.

          So, I hope I’m encouraging you. I think you’re in a far better position than you’re giving yourself credit for because you’re asking all the right questions. The first week or two of the semester is always busy because you’re adjusting to a new schedule.

        2. Amy Sly*

          During law school, sometimes I found that the best thing I could do for my productivity was wander down to the gym and take a long shower. Sometimes I’d even swim a few laps first, but the important thing was to just not be at my desk.

    12. The Rat-Catcher*

      My semester starts Jan 21st. I am five semesters in so I already have an idea how this will go. Last semester was utterly horrendous, but that was due to lots of things going on personally. Most of those situations have been resolved, and I’m hoping for a busy but manageable semester.

    13. wenhaver*

      My semester starts in a week, and I just got the “welcome to the class” emails yesterday. One of which was very snotty about how because this is a BUSINESS PROGRAM we need to use BUSINESS STANDARD operating systems and software, and that work done on a Mac is therefore not acceptable because it is not a BUSINESS operating system.

      Guess who has two thumbs, access to *6* Macs, and not a single PC? I’m guessing it’s going to matter because advanced Excel work is important for this class. But I’ve also been a business professional for over 20 years, and have not used a PC for work in over a decade – I’ve turned down jobs where they won’t let me use a Mac. I’m just so out of the PC world that I don’t comfortable or efficient. So now I get to spend at least $140 on VM/Windows licenses, or buy a bottom of the barrel laptop solely for this 3 credit class that’s required for my program. I am sorely tempted to just work away on my Mac anyway unless and until I get stuck where a PC is actually required for a functional reason, not just a personal preference on the part of the instructor. The software required for the class (ebook, Excel) all work on Mac, unless there’s additional undisclosed software that I have yet to be informed about.

      Needless to say, I am quite a bit salty about the tone of that email, the idea that one computer can be “business” while another cannot ever be, and that I have to lay out even more money straight after the holidays because this requirement wasn’t disclosed ahead of time. I can pay the extra expenses, or I can possibly borrow an old laptop from someone, but I don’t feel I should have to based on this incredibly specious reasoning.

      2. Teapot Translator*

        Wow. Just wow.
        Is there a computer lab at the school? They probably have PCs. Might be another option.

      3. CastIrony*

        On Amazon, my best friend bought a desktop PC that was about 200 USD plus 70 USD for a cheap monitor. It lasted her a couple of years.

    14. Ace in the Hole*

      Winter term started this week. I’m in a distance (undergrad) program, which has pros and cons. One of the good parts is that a very high proportion of students are older, working full time, parents, in the military, etc. So instructors are somewhat better prepared for the kind of routine schedule conflicts that happen when your whole life doesn’t revolve around school.

      It’s still hard. I upped my units this term in the hopes of finishing a degree sometime this decade. Applied for a few research programs (but haven’t heard back yet). Hoping the term goes smoothly!

    15. Close Bracket*

      New semester starts next week. I’m about half committed to taking a class. I’m only half committed bc frankly, work life balance will not be a thing for me if I take a class. I’m 49. I want a freaking life, or at least not to work all the time. I’m probably going to take it, though.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Well, you’re talking about A, as in ONE, class. It would be a commitment, but not a life sentence, and you’re taking it for your own benefit. They do end eventually. What kind of class?

    16. CastIrony*

      I am thinking of starting my career in art after years of getting my art degree, but don’t know where to start! Any ideas?

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        That depends…. what kind of art is your focus? You’ll have very different options if your background is in, for example, sculpture vs graphic design vs painting.

    17. June*

      Here is what my instructor taught us on how to read and survive grad school –
      1. Read the table of content.
      This will give you an idea of what the book is about (concept, theme, style, etc.).
      2. Skim the notes in the back of the book.
      Does the author use a brochure from a conference (true story), cite scientific journal, or quote their previous book (again, true story)? This can give you an info about the author’s expertise, theme of the book (more scientific journals, more of a focus on science), ego level (I joke, maybe), etc.
      3. Read the first and last chapter.
      This will help you understand the author ‘s theory and their conclusion.
      4. Go back to the table of contents and look for chapters that either interest you or you need to learn more.
      Read those chapters.
      5. Schedule dedicated time for reading and most importantly, time to process/think about the book.
      Try not do either of these the night before the reading is due. :)
      6. Make reading as comfortable as possible.
      Find a comfortable place to read with good lighting (academia reading doesn’t have to happen at a desk). Have your favorite cup of tea. Snuggle with a blanket. Maybe go to your favorite coffee shop to read (but leave the blanket at home).
      7. Write words/sentences that speak to you as you read in a notebook.
      These notes don’t have to be an outline of the book. You would be surprised how often your random notes will start showing a theme or your feelings/concept about the book.
      8. Discuss the book with people other than your classmate.
      Talking about a book will often bring clarity that your mind alone might not have discovered. But warning, use this technique gently with family and friends. You are not trying to educate them, just spark a conservation. :)
      Good luck!!

    18. Pam*

      Good luck to all of you. I was a mature student who became an academic advisor and now look out for my tribe.

    19. WorkingOnMyMasters*

      I have exams to close out the first semester starting next Friday (the system works differently here in Belgium).
      After 3 years I think I have the work/study balance figured out, but life can throw curve balls that make everything more stressful.

      Good luck to everyone starting their second semester. You can do this!

    20. A Cataloger*

      Not a student (and knowing it’s probably too late for anyone to read this), but as a librarian, I highly recommend getting to know your subject librarian. I work with a department that has a lot of mature students and I’m always happy to meet with them when and how it works with their schedule. I’ve come in on Saturday mornings, I’ve stayed late on weeknights, I’ve also meet with students online, etc. Every meeting I’ve had has been great because we are able to delve deeper into their subject and needs.

  7. Daisy-dog*

    I need Googlin’ tips! A part of my role involves doing research on potential customers which can be quite small companies located all over the world. I’m essentially trying to confirm that this is a real company (not a front for anything illegal). I’ve been told to confirm their website, find information about them on other websites that looks legit, and look at Google Maps satellite images to confirm that the location doesn’t look suspicious. Except these companies are so small or have really generic names, I often can’t find them. And Google doesn’t do a good job with showing me the address in foreign countries. Any advice?

    1. Wannabe Citizen DS*

      Can you define key words and have them translated professionally to local languages? While Google Translate can be helpful, it’s often inaccurate, and small businesses are more often talked about on local forums, which brings me to my second point.
      Can you look up business forums, local versions of reddit or whatever’s relevant for your industry/the businesses you’re looking at? Even a Facebook group for llama enthusiast in the local language. Maybe job boards?

    2. Alice*

      Check out the website Bellingcat — it has lots of posts about “open source intelligence,” but you will be able to apply their techniques to any kind of online research, not just war crimes.

    4. Toodie*

      I can’t speak for the current edition, but many many years ago Googling was a big part of my job, and I found the O’Reilly book “Google Hacks” to be very helpful. Again, I can’t speak for the current edition but that one was terrific.

      1. June*

        This book is older but it might be helpful – “How to Find Out Anything: From Extreme Google Searches to Scouring Government Documents, a Guide to Uncovering Anything About Everyone and Everything”
        by Don MacLeod.

    5. kittymommy*

      depending on where they are located at (I’m more familiar with US based companies and not international) you may try to see if they are registered with any state agencies or any regulatory authorities, if applicable. You can also try to search in local government databases for any paperwork filed with a clerk or property registry (I do this by address or parcel numbers if I don’t have any names or owners or registered agents). Also see if you can find a tax id # on them, that might open up some avenues as well.

      Good luck.

      2. BRR*

        This was going to be my suggestion. For US companies, they register with each state’s secretary of state. I usually search “STATE secretary of state business search.”

    6. pigeon*

      It’s driving me crazy that I can’t find it off-hand, but a while ago I read this fascinating blog series from an (ex?) lawyer who went to great lengths to track down a company that tried to scam him. He explained all the methods he used to investigate their different companies, determine legitimacy, red flags that popped up, etc. It could be a good resource for you; I’ll keep looking and link if I find it.

    7. Aquawoman*

      Add whatever other information you have about them? Locale (city vs country), name of someone who would normally be listed on a website (C-level or something like that), nature of the business. Sometimes if you have a name, you can find them on Linked in and they’ll be linked to their company’s website.

    8. Jedi Squirrel*

      Are there any professional associations they might belong to that you can verify?

      Do they hold any quality certifications (such as ISO)?

      What happens when you Google their telephone number? (I do this in the States; not sure how it would work overseas.)

      Can you reach out to them to ask for banking/business references?

      Who designed their website? Sometimes there is a link at the bottom; sometimes you have to look at source code.) Can you reach out to them to see how that process was carried out? (You’re gonna have to come up with a story here, most likely.)

    9. A business librarian*

      I’m assuming you are in the U.S.– maybe a good strategy is using government records to check and see if these companies are registered for business in their locale. For example, in the U.S., every state’s secretary of state website has a search function that you can use to get company records for businesses incorporated/registered there. Google “new york secretary of state business search” for an example.
      Other countries will have similar publicly-available information. The U.K., for example: https://www DOT gov DOT uk/get-information-about-a-company.

      Certainly the availability/quality/currency of the records depends on what you’re looking for and where. And, it may or may not be helpful.
      For finding other information, search for news stories or social media profiles?
      Also, consider contacting your local business librarian (either at a public library, or your nearest state university library) for further research suggestions. In the end, it’s really hard to find information about small (private?) companies.

    10. HM MM*

      Do you get any other info about the companies? A phone number, email address, etc?

      Not exactly the same, but I used to have do expense reports for employees who took a lot of biz trips in Asia. Half the time the employees just handed me a bag full of receipts with no info (I was an EA, so it was my job). A lot of the receipts were in characters that I was not at all familiar with, but sometimes I’d find a string of numbers. I’d google the numbers and sometimes I’d get a business website or listing that I could pull up and use Google translate.

    11. i forget the name I usually use*

      I would say DNBi and checking the Secretary of State business search to find business registration, registered addresses, etc. They may be incorporated in a different state than they’re located (e.g. lots of companies use Delaware and have an agent as their address there). Searching the US trademark database may also be helpful, as those are thing they have to maintain and have an address for.

    12. fluffy*

      In the US, local libraries provide extensive databases with reputable information on businesses, and can be used remotely if you enter your library card info. I would search the company’s local newspaper and a big newspaper (New York Times, say). If the library has provided a database for a long time, the library believes the it provides reasonably fair resources. ABI/Inform has helped me a lot in the past.

    13. anonish*

      I did this type of research on companies for several years. If you’re still reading, here are some basic free or lost cost options:
      -opencorporates (dot) com is a good resource. It’s free and has pretty decent coverage for basic information on US and international companies
      -Second suggestions for U.S. companies to search state Secretary of State records. Most states allow you to search for free in order to get basic information about when a company was incorporated, its registered address, registered agent, etc. Also search d/b/a records (if available online) – these are “does business as” or “assumed business name” records – typically available at the state level. Sometimes a company will be incorporated as one thing, e.g. LottaLlamas, LLC but operate under an assumed name e.g. I Love Llamas
      -In a pinch if you’re dealing with offshore companies search ICIJ’s offshore leaks database. This will at least confirm the company exists as an offshore entity
      -Some countries outside the U.S. have company registrar information available online – for example, in the UK you can search UK Companies House for basic corporate information.
      -Third suggestions to work with a librarian. They may have access to commercial research databases such as Dun & Bradstreet/Hoover’s, LexisNexis, Westlaw and other public records aggregators containing additional information about companies. Or, if your company has the budget, consider subscribing directly to some of these databases.

  8. Hamster*

    Thanks to everyone who responded in my last post about maternity leave.

    I plan to talk to my HR after my ultrasound if everything goes well (please, I need the good wishes yall!) to get more info about FMLA/maternity leave etc.

    The only one I’ve actually told is my boss, I don’t really plan to announce to anyone else except my team mate who will take over my duties while I’m gone. If everything goes well, my due date is in August.

    How does a conversation like that go? what exactly should I ask, and what would I say in the follow up? Our HR person is a mother of tweens and seems to be reasonable and nice, but I want to be cautious and make sure I do this right. Do I need to involve my boss on this conversation?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      “I’m pregnant and due in August!” That’s about it. Up to you if you want your boss involved. The HR person will ask how much time you hope to take off and advise on wage replacement options. Depending on your company or your state, you may get some paid time for maternity leave specifically or they may offer short-term disability. Otherwise, save your PTO!! With FMLA, you get 12 weeks total of job protection, but that can be taken anytime after 1 year of the birth, so if you just want to take 8 weeks initially, then save 4 weeks for a childcare issue, you can. Questions to ask vary based on your role, your company’s benefits, etc.

      (I did not see your previous post, so sorry if I am missing more context.)

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      If you’ve already told your boss, you could ask for his/her advice on that conversation – ask if they want to be involved, etc.

      If that doesn’t feel right to you, I’d probably err on the side of speaking with the HR person solo. Most of those policies are already spelled out and it’s really just them explaining to you what is offered – and you figuring out how much time you want to take. I think it’s good to know how much time off you want, but leave flexibility in there if you can. It’s a lot easier to come back early than to stay out longer, so err on the side of asking for more than you think you want now.

    3. theelephantintheroom*

      It’s a pretty easy-going conversation, so don’t stress too much! I recommend emailing your HR rep with a quick, “Hey, I’m pregnant and here’s my due date. Can we schedule a time to go over the protocol for initiating maternity leave?” Then you’ll do just that! Take a lot of notes during the meeting. I’m currently in my third trimester and my HR department is great. We exchanged personal emails and phone numbers (namely so they can keep me informed without me getting sucked into work emails, but also because they’re all suckers for baby pictures and have light-heartedly demanded All The Photos). They also remind me of important things I need to do.

      Be sure to let them know you’ve told your boss. I’m not sure if it’s a legal thing or company policy, but my HR department said they couldn’t discuss anything regarding my leave (including finding someone to fill in for me) until I spoke with her myself first.

      The only big thing I had to do myself was call the company we use for STD/FMLA (which is Cigna) and open an account. They contact my doctor for me and all that stuff. The nice thing about places that have legit maternity leave is that they make it pretty easy.

      Congrats and good luck!!

      1. Daisy-dog*

        Yes, I also recommend ensuring that HR has your personal contact info. I had to scramble to find out someone’s info when he was out for a medical leave because open enrollment was happening during that time. An employee came back from maternity leave this week and I was texting her a little when she was out – asking what she needed in her pump room, telling her how to update her dependents on insurance, etc.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      Benefits wise, make sure you understand if anything might change while you’re on leave. Some employers require you to pay your portion of any insurance premiums if you’re on an unpaid leave.

      Job wise, if there’s any substantial duties that might require cross training that isn’t currently in place, you and your boss will need to sort out how to accomplish that appropriate training as you get closer to August (plan to have that fully done by the time you’re 32 weeks, if not sooner).

      Congratulations!

      1. June First*

        Yes, all great advice.
        Also make sure you clarify what’s paid time off and what’s not. I had short term disability for my youngest child, but while I had six weeks off as recommended by the doctor, they would only pay for five. I had to use PTO for the gap week. When I tried to get six weeks paid by short term disability (seven weeks total) they said no. Six weeks total, not six weeks paid by STD. Luckily I had PTO to cover the gap week. This is not a huge issue, but be prepared before you need it!

    5. Becca*

      Congrats on your pregnancy! People already gave you good advice, so I just wanted to add – don’t worry, you have so much time! You do not have to tell anyone at work or discuss with HR until you are ready, please don’t feel rushed or pressured. I did not tell a single person at work until I was 24+ weeks along and everything was completely fine. I know that feeling of wanting to get everything figured out, so do what’s right for you – but people get sick or have emergencies or quit all the time and business goes on so don’t feel bad about focusing on yourself!

    6. i forget the name I usually use*

      Congrats! I was you a few months ago. Likely, I’ll you’ll have to do is tell them, and they’ll guide the conversation from there to let you know what standard practices at your company are. It might be really short though, if they need some time to get their ducks in a row before having an in-depth conversation about what they can offer you. I wouldn’t agree to anything, just ask for as much information as they can give you. You’ll want to take time to review it, I’ve spent a long time considering my options.

      If they are a sensitive person, they will probably also ask who else knows and how you would like to tell the rest of your team/company. I think they are ultra aware of this sort of disclosure being in your court, but if not I think you could make it clear that you’d like to handle sharing the news on your own.

  9. Automated*

    Has anyone elses company gone live with MyAnalytics from microsoft?

    There are things I like about it but man it skeeves me out!

    It clearly tracks and analyzes everything you say in chat or email. It analyzes your read and response times for emails (for example manager from x department only reads 40% of my emails). Tracks how often you disconnect on nights and weekends. And the flyer I read states your company may have purchased website tracking and analysis software. They claim it’s not meant to be used as an automatic productivity tracker but frankly Skype was not meant to be used as an engaged indicator either but plenty of managers reacted to “away” statuses.

    My company just went live with it with no warning or announcement which felt like an attempt to trick people into not noticing it. I have no way of knowing if the website tracker is on (I google stackoverflow a lot for work).

    I’ve been engaging with the software and sending feedback to MS because some metrics like focus and disconnect time are just wrong.

    Anyone else seen companies not abuse tool who can calm my anxiety about this watch you work bot?

    3. Alice*

      I can’t calm your anxiety, but I will note that it’s probably measuring read/unread based on whether someone opened the email. That is, if they only read it in the preview pane — which is the case for many emails I suspect — it will count as unread. So, the quality of this data is not high.

      1. Automated*

        Reading in preview counts as a read but if you go in and mark it unread it doesn’t count as read. Overall that metric is fairly accurate. This manager is notorious for not engaging and them being the loudest complainer that their departments needs were not considered.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          In Outlook if you leave the new email line highlighted it changes over in 5 seconds to “read” status, but this is a setting you can change. I don’t know whether you have to have it in preview mode or not.

          I suspect there are multiple workarounds to affect data of this kind and that a lot of it will not be truly representative of workflow timings and such.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        This. Mine isn’t exactly accurate either for th is reason (and it’s been in place since I started with this company back in May). I’m not worried about potential website tracking because my work output is good, so even if I spend a half hour here or there looking at a news story or ordering something off Amazon, I really don’t think my boss or grandboss will care.

    4. pugsnbourbon*

      Fascinating. I started getting emails from MyAnalytics out of the blue back in October. I didn’t really pay it any mind. Looking more closely now, there’s a little icon in the top corner that says “for your eyes only” which takes me to a privacy information page. The page is, as could be expected, a little vague. I’ll be interested to see how this plays out at my workplace.

      1. Automated*

        My thinking is I should engage to know what it os saying about me vs if management is secretely using it and being blindsided.

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m still wondering how the heck this functionality got past all the watchdogs. Specifically, Legal, Audit, Compliance type functions. Yes, it’s turned on at my workplace. Thus far, I have completely ignored it.

    8. JustaTech*

      Oh is that what that thing does? Mine only gives me things like “you had bla % uninterrupted working time” and things like that – utterly meaningless because just because I’m not in a meeting doesn’t mean people aren’t talking to me. But I haven’t seen anything about anyone else, just me.

      I know when it started (about a month or so ago) several people asked IT if it was some new kind of phishing, and It was “no, it’s just a Microsoft thing” and everyone shrugged and went on their way.

      I *highly* doubt my company paid for it, or is using it as a productivity tool since half the workforce is only productive when they’re *not* at their computers. (Manufacturing)

      1. Nom de Plume*

        I had this exact same thought! I don’t have a ton of scheduled meetings, but I’m a subject matter expert, so folks come to me with questions fairly frequently. Or sometimes I’ll have an impromptu collaboration session with a colleague that isn’t a meeting, but doesn’t mean that time was free for writing.

    9. Pilcrow*

      I’m pretty sure MyAnalytics is something that comes default with the Office/Outlook package; therefore probably not something your company is actually using for tracking.*

      My emails have been popping up weekly for about a year now and there is no indication my employer is using it for anything (other than further confirming Corporate has drunk the Microsoft kool-aid :p ). I ignore and delete.

      * I say ‘probably’ because I’m sure there is some company somewhere that uses this data, but I am equally sure that such a company would be an outlier.

    10. NGL*

      I just got it this weekend and opted out of that ASAP (we also didn’t have any kind of notification it was coming). While I’m definitely curious about tracking my own productivity, it just felt weird to have my company tracking it. (Also I feel like the stats could be very misleading in my case. I spend a lot of time browsing the internet/on social media…because I’m a marketer who directly deals with social media!)

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        We were talking about it at work the other day since it appeared for us too. My opinion, until Microsoft can fix that stupid color initial circle I’m not going to buy that they can create a decent AI product.

        (Microsoft added a circle with your, or coworkers a while ago. It kind of looks like it’s trying to be an avatar. But it uses some crap algorithm to choose what to use and is useless and confusing. It changes my initials all the time, sometimes including letters from the company’s two names.

    11. Mimmy*

      Is that part of Office 365? My email at work will be transitioning to that on Monday (the entire agency, not just my specific worksite).

    12. Nikki T*

      This prompted me to go turn mine off. It’s not all that useful anyway.

      I see it is listed on the page where they announced changeover to Office 365, but it was just a “here is this thing” link. But I didn’t really read the webpage, just the emails that were sent to let us know if the changeover broke something.

      I mean, they can watch me regardless of this thing. But the report is completely useless to me…

    13. Damn it, Hardison!*

      My company turned it off, as we determined it raised some sticky privacy issues, particularly with our European affiliates.

    14. Another name*

      It’s been announced on the Microsoft Roadmap but I get so many of those notices I didn’t even notice this was coming before I got the notification it was turned on – and I work in IT! I immediately went into my settings and turned it off for my account.

      We aren’t using it to track our employees – it is marketed to help employees track how they are using their time – but anytime data is collected, it can potentially be compromised. It seems unhelpful to me and I’d rather opt out.

    15. NW Mossy*

      My company has it and I manage people. Can confirm that I see absolutely zero reporting about my directs (or anyone else) related to it, and even if I did, I’m dubious about how well passive AI data-hoovering really does in giving me meaningful insights into their productivity.

  10. Green Snickers*

    Anyone have advice for surviving in a job that requires a lot of strategy planning and thinking when you’ve got one foot out the door?

    I’m starting to job search and am beyond over my current job. It’s really hard for me to come in and care about work. Ideally, I’d like to keep my head down and just get through my tasks and emails but my job is requiring a lot of strategy and future planning- presentations and process creation. It’s really hard to find the energy to try but unfortunately, I can’t not try unless I want to throw up red flags to my bosses that I’m looking (FWIW the job isn’t a culture fit and I don’t mesh well with my team so there’s no chance my boss could fix anything to make me stay)

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      Are you looking for jobs roughly within the same industry or same/similar role as what you have now? If so, and it were me, I’d approach any work I’m doing now as essentially research/portfolio/practice activities toward the new job. I would think the more you can show having accomplished and the more recently, the more likely you look like a good job candidate. Put the emphasis on creating detailed and beautiful documents, showing your process, your research, and the anticipated results of your plan.

      If you can walk into an interview and say, “I just completed a strategic plan for automating all teapot manufacturing and here’s the lovely illustrated documentation of how I accomplished that,” it could give you a leg up. Obviously, you need to do this within limits of confidentiality, but some form of portfolio is generally allowed in most industries.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Similar to @Oh No She Di’int*, think of these as exercises to boost your future job searches. “I was able to design and setup the successful strategy” is a much better accomplishment than “I checked out.”

      Also, can you trick your brain into seeing yourself as an external consultant? That way, you don’t need to be personally invested in the future, but you’re professional reputation/integrity is on the line.

  11. Cherry*

    At the risk of sounding like a total A-hole……

    How much can a manager/HR push someone to take a sick days? Everyone has sick days outside of PTO, and management encourages everyone to take them when they’re really sick. They don’t ask invasive questions or force people to come in and no one has to go through ridiculous hoops. 

    There’s one person, not my staff member, who seems to have been very sick the last few days. Very loudly blowing their nose, phleghmy coughing. I’m a few feet away and it’s. so. loud. Our busy season is starting and no one wants to get sick and fall behind/lose out on OT because of a cold going around. HR did end up talking to him, and he refused to go home and recuperate.

    I’m trying to be sympathetic–I know it’s no fun being sick, and I understand motivations in other work places and situations where you could lose pay or it’s out of one pot or managers are unreasonable. But not in this case. 

    2. CatCat*

      I would think if their presence is causing a work problem or likely to cause a work problem, the manager could direct them to leave for the day.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Absolutely, the manager can send you home. If there isn’t a financial aspect (they can’t afford to miss an hour of pay/ need to save PTO for big surgery) then their manager should sit down and have a big picture discussion about work/health balance. They may be thinking that coming in sick and refusing to go home is making them look like a stellar employee, when it is doing the opposite.

        1. Cherry*

          Ironically he’s not that great of an employee. People complain that he’s on his phone all day long, doesn’t do much, and that he thinks he’s too good for this job (Latter I’ve seen firsthand). I’m not his manager so I can’t/won’t overstep. The sick days are fully paid And everyone in the company is allowed them.

    3. Mbarr*

      I get that it’s super annoying. But maybe he’s saving his sick leave for something else? E.g. A chronic condition that flares up randomly?

      That being said, I’m firmly on the WFH policy if you’re sick… But I also struggle with the optics of WFH when I “only” have a cold.

      1. China Beech*

        I don’t think the only issue is that it’s “annoying;” If the person is truly sick and contagious then it’s public health issue too.

    4. Alice*

      HR can’t make him go home, but can’t they make him go somewhere else? He can go and be sick in a coffee shop if he really wants to not be at home. It sounds like he’s got a great environment and I would also be peevish about it.

    5. Antilles*

      That is 100% not sounding like an AH. It’s a tricky balance. On one hand, yes, you need to trust employees to manage their health…but on the other hand, having the entire department sick because someone coming in while sick ends up being bad for everybody (themselves, colleagues, and even your clients).
      As a manager, my general path is to first go the polite conversation route – hey, you look a little under the weather, are you okay? please don’t feel like you have to stay here if you’re sick, this report will still be here in a couple days, it’s always okay to take care of yourself first, etc. Often enough, this conversation ends with the person thanking me for the concern, admitting they’re feeling a little shaky, then they just wrap up a couple things before going home a couple minutes later.
      If that doesn’t resolve things or they firmly push back that “I’m fine, I’m fine”, then the next step is to go ahead and send them home. I phrase this as a mix of concern that the issue might get worse if you try to push through rather than resting up today and keeping everyone else healthy because it’s flu season y’know, but at the end of the conversation, it’s a clear dismissal to go home.

    6. Potsie*

      One thing to keep in mind is that he may not be as sick as he sounds. The problem with colds is that the most noticeable symptoms tend to appear after the worst of it is over and can linger for weeks. Do you have the option of sending him home early without charging him PTO or allowing him to work from home?

      1. INeedANap*

        This definitely happened to me; I had a nasty cold and the cough/congestion just lingered forever. I stayed home one day, worked from home the next, and then went back to work. I sounded like I was hacking up a lung for almost two weeks despite cough drops but I actually felt fine (aside from being slightly winded).

        1. JustaTech*

          I had a coworker come back from having a terrible lung infection who sounded like death warmed over. He insisted he was much, much better and I should have heard him a month before. I get that *he* felt that he was much better, but he still sounded awful. He wouldn’t/couldn’t go home so I finally asked him to mostly keep his door closed (he was a boss so had an office with a door).

          It was very hard on his direct report, how has an immune deficiency. We were told that coughing guy wasn’t contagious, but it’s very hard to have a meeting with your boss when you’re worried he’s going to put you in the hospital. (Partly out of respect to that coworker I try to WFH when I’m audibly sick, even if it’s probably not contagious, just so they’re not stressing out.)

          1. Leisel*

            I had a co-worker undergoing treatment for cancer a while back. I was feeling a little under the weather one day and had a low fever. Went to the doctor that morning and they couldn’t detect anything. I still stayed home for 2 days, even though I could have gone to work. I didn’t want my coworker to feel uncomfortable! I know she was worried about illness at the time because we were right in the middle of flu season. It wasn’t much fun catching up when I went back, but in a small office where your coworkers are unavoidable I didn’t wan to take a risk for her or anyone else.

            1. Cherry*

              That’s so awesome and considerate of you.

              I think the guy in my office was being selfish and inconsiderate.

              I just don’t see the point of coming to work when you’re dozing off all day long. I know coughing can linger and is the last thing to go but it’s usually the first 1-3 days that it’s contagious.

          2. INeedANap*

            To me it depends on contagion; in my case, my doctor’s office said I wasn’t contagious and my view is that annoying noises are part of office life to a certain extent. I’m sure my coughing was annoying, but I did my due diligence in checking with a doctor that I wasn’t contagious, and so I see no reason to stay out of work in those circumstances.

            1. Poppy the Flower*

              Yeah, coughing especially can last awhile. I had a cough for a month after having pneumonia even though I could tell the antibiotics were working within a day or so (and you’re typically not contagious after that time period if so). I was diagnosed on a Friday and called off Monday so I got kind of lucky it was a weekend. But there’s no way I could have stayed home the entire time I had a cough! I’ve had some pretty bad allergy flare ups too that look like colds, but aren’t. I generally err on the side of trusting someone but I’m also more willing to share a little more detail to be reassuring if it’s me! (EVERYONE knew I had pneumonia not because I wanted attention, but because I wanted them to know I was treated for my cough haha!)

      2. Laura H.*

        I have mountain cedar allergies and sound far worse than I feel. But I have the cough, phlegm, and drainage that original commenter describes! And while an antihistamine doesn’t completely solve my problem, it makes me functional enough to do what I need to. (I’m not working right now but I do volunteer and do self-care ish things that require going out)

      3. Sunflower*

        I think his boss needs to tell him to WFH. I don’t know the guy but TBH, most people I know who have trouble taking time off aren’t necessarily worried about optics and they have managers who are supportive- they are worried about falling behind. Considering the OP himself said busy season if ramping up and people are worried about falling behind, that’s probably what this guy is worried about too.

        I get terribly long lingering colds- I can’t do anything about that and I can’t and won’t take 4 weeks off or them- it’s ridiculous when I feel fine. I also can’t WFH for 4 weeks straight.

        1. Cherry*

          Well right now it’s slow so not a lot going on—it’s actually the perfect time to take off. And he also doesn’t do much when he is at work (from what I’ve been told).

    7. Lora*

      It depends on the job, in my experience, but you can definitely send someone home. I’ve done it. But in my case, my employees are working with hazards or risk contaminating sterile products, so I send them home on those grounds. We also tell people up front during onboarding that they can be sent home for those reasons and the company nurse makes the determination with the supervisor, they shouldn’t be surprised.

    8. Tinker Angel*

      My boss once made an off hand comment about me being sick and I took some time off and have been better about it since, but I don’t get sick often. Maybe the employee just needs to be tacitly given permission to take some time off.

    9. Chompers*

      I’m so pissed about something like this – a lady at my office comes in sick ALL THE TIME and has gotten me sick multiple times but, just this week, gave me strep that she was trying to power through herself without having to go to the doctor. I get that it might be hard for some people to miss out on work but now you’re making other people miss out on work (as well as working closely with a pregnant woman who can’t get sick) and it feels very selfish to me.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        Many people have very poor experiences with doctors, therefore won’t willingly go see them because a lot of MDs simply suck, to be frank. I know many people who power through illnesses for this reason plus the cost.

  12. ThatGirl*

    Food for thought. I’ve been at this company 2 1/2 years. My starting pay was in line with what I asked for; my first raise (6 mos in) was only 1% but my raise last year was 4% (higher than company average) and I got an additional raise when I made a lateral move so last year my pay went up about 10%. It’s not mind-blowing, but I’m satisfied with it. My new coworkers have complained about tiny raises and being low-balled when they were hired. It makes me wonder if my expectations are low or whether I just got lucky. Presumably my raise when I switched roles – which I didn’t ask for, mind you – was from my new manager, right? So either I’m just that good or … something.

    1. Adlib*

      I’ve had this happen before. My old boss was highly interested in keeping me around so he made sure to advocate for extra % in annual raises and pushed for discretionary bonuses a couple times. It varies by company, but that could be one reason. I never told anyone about them either because they definitely weren’t across the board. If you’re in the discussions where people are complaining, encourage them to ask and advocate for a raise for themselves. Some people won’t as they just like to complain, but that’s what I’ve done before.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, part of me is curious what my co-workers are making (especially the one who’s at roughly the same age and experience level as me) but I also don’t want to go around saying “well, I got a raise when I moved up here and also I have a week more vacation than you do.” I was also by all accounts the strongest applicant for my new position so my manager may have considered that and been trying to keep me happy.

    2. LKW*

      Or they have unrealistic expectations. a 4% increase is pretty much COLA and not what I’d call a merit raise. If people are expecting 10% every year -that’s not normal.

      The lateral move with a 10% pay raise means that either that move was NOT lateral and can be seen as a promotion or you were low-balled in your prior role. Lateral means the level is equal and generally the pay would be equal.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I may not have been clear — the normal raises here are around 2-3% from what I can gather. I got 4% last year because my previous manager thought I was amazing and advocated for it. They’re considered “merit increases,” not cost of living adjustments. But anyway.

        I also didn’t get a 10% raise to my new position; I got the 4% raise in Feb from my annual review and an additional ~6% when I moved to the new role over the summer. It totaled about 10% for the year. When I applied I inquired with HR about the pay band (to make sure it wouldn’t be a pay cut) and she told me it was considered lateral but “maybe a small increase” — they’re both individual contributor roles in different departments.

        1. LKW*

          OK – but in that scenario 6% would be an exceptional raise, so I’d say it’s still not a lateral move (and good for you!). But if 2-3% is normal – then perhaps my first statement is valid – your coworkers have unrealistic expectations.

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        Heh. My employer, at least in my department, gives 2.5% or 3% “merit” raises once a year, pretty much across the board, and no COLAs. They absolutely insist it’s “merit”, but it barely keeps pace with national inflation, and doesn’t keep pace with local inflation. Then they wonder why the employee survey’s have “affordability” as the top concern. (I live in a high cost area.)

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      Wait… you consider a 10% raise to /not/ be mind-blowing?
      For perspective, I’ve received two 10% raises in the last 20 years.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I don’t consider my overall pay mind-blowing! I may not have been as clear as I intended – I got a 4% raise in Feb. and then another 6% or so when I switched jobs. I was definitely happy with it, and I would be thrilled to get a 10% raise during the course of a normal review.

    4. designbot*

      Everyone’s situations are so different… first of all, due to the silence around money in a lot of fields, it’s really difficult to know whether your expectations going in are in line with the market or not. Then, people’s immediate past situations are so influential. Like, at my last job I knew I was getting really sorely underpaid, so just being brought more in line with current economic conditions feels like this fantastic relief to me. Or one of my employees was perma-lance at her last role, so she’s like “omg, if it comes with healthcare I’ll take it!” But a coworker came from doing our role in an adjacent industry that had a higher pay rate across the board, and she’s always been a little bitter about the paycut she had to take even as she appreciates other aspects of the job. I have no reason to think we’re getting paid very differently—if anything I suspect that seeing what salary they had to offer her prompted them to give me a raise—but our expectations are set so differently. I’d be inclined to read your coworkers’ griping as a signal that you might have differing expectations.

      1. Automated*

        As a finance person who can see everyones salaries, my experience is disparity is the norm not the exception.

        1. designbot*

          I guess what I mean is, salaries may be all over the place, but so are expectations. Sometimes the people griping about their salaries have a point, and sometimes they’re actually being tone deaf because they have it pretty good. Like I’ve heard someone gripe about their salary to a room full of people who were almost certainly making less than him (because we were all below him in organizational hierarchy). People are often not thinking about their audience for such complaints.

          1. ThatGirl*

            There are certainly things at this company that I don’t blame my coworkers for being frustrated with. And it can be very frustrating to feel like you’re not valued as an employee or given opportunities for growth. But yes, I agree that expectations are all over the place – for instance $50k a year can feel amazing or insulting, depending on who you are, the field you’re in, the area you live in, level of education, job and salary history, etc.

  13. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

    Hi fellow AAM Readers! I am a Humanities PhD in the US and on the academic job market for the first time this year and it’s somehow even worse than I expected! (Though I can’t complain because I personally am doing better than many). I was wondering if anyone would be interested in having a little Academic Job Market commiseration and/or brag thread below, since at least in my case, I am “competing” with a lot of my closest work friends so we really don’t/can’t rely on each other to vent/discuss?

    Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend!

    1. Reba*

      Congrats / sorry!! Good luck out there. I’m no longer in that particular rat race but would be happy to read about your exploits and cheer you on.

      When I was finishing up I heard (from someone I really admire) that it was “an amazing year in our field” — there were FOUR university positions, two of which were temporary, and a couple museum jobs.

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        yikessss. I’m in a better position than that, but my discipline has a lot of generalist positions that aren’t necessarily field-specific. so, more applications out, but way more folks to compete with. I do have my very first campus visit coming up though!

        2. From the academy*

          Good luck to all in their pursuit. Best advice that I received for the campus visit. The job talk is not a paper presentation. Memorize it, practice. Nail the time. Be prepared for questions. Remember every moment is part of the interview.

    2. kz*

      I’m also a Humanities PhD in the US. Not on the job market yet, but will be in the next couple years. Most of my academic friends are on the market now and my husband just accepted a full-time job at a community college after being on the market this fall. It honestly sounds awful, and watching other people go through it has definitely changed how I plan to approach it…mostly in terms of waiting a little longer than I was originally planning to because I’m seeing how hard it is to finish the diss and apply for jobs at the same time. I’m lucky to be in the financial situation to take my time, and some other personal life events have also sort of pushed the issue.

      Good luck to you On that Academic Job Market Grind! I know it’s rough out there.

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        It’s so hard to write and job hunt at the same time; it’s smart and good that you can take your time! Also congrats to your husband!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve talked about this a bunch before, but my partner was on the job market last year. It SUCKED. And he’s in a STEM field! The government shutdown happened right before the conference where everyone did their initial interviews, and that just screwed everything up for a lot of people in his field.

      At this stage in the game, he had had five interviews and only one fly-out, one of his friends was whining every day because she kept screwing up her interviews (she reported certain things to us and my mind was boggled), and another friend couldn’t share ANY information because he was involved in a weird investigation where it appeared someone was out to get him (that was intense).

      Anyway. The job market is a weird, stressful place. Have you had interviews yet?

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        I’ve had 4 Skype interviews (they’re trying to move away from the big conference interviews which I appreciate). So for one post-interview rejection and one campus visit invite. 2 more still unknown. So it’s not too terrible. I did try on a suit today and burst into tears because I have gained so much weight in grad school I feel like I look terrible in everything. But I do think that’s mostly the anxiety coming through.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Congrats on the campus visit!!! And I hear you SO HARD on the suit. I wasn’t in grad school but I gained his grad school weight.

        2. JobHunter*

          It’s just the anxiety talking! You have had so many interviews, you must be on top of your game!

    4. JobHunter*

      I just received an offer for a post doc after a lengthy search, will pay a bit more than I make now and it’s exactly what I want to do!

      But

      They want me there in person in three weeks to do onboarding in person (I did not give a start date in the interview), and it’s cross country in a higher COL place. I have a house, employed partner, and a good-enough-to-get-by job that is helping us gain a little traction.

      I have family in the region that live a few hours away that can help with scouting housing. I think we can carry a two-household household for a little while. But I am feeling pressured, making me cautious, with a week to make a decision. Does anyone think I can talk them into pushing my start back a few weeks?

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        Oh wow this is really tricky! Is there anyone from your committee that might be able to help you navigate the politics of asking for more time? If you’ve got the offer it shouldn’t hurt to ask but I totally get why you’d be hesitant.

        1. JobHunter*

          My advisor said that short deadlines are a pain in the neck. I spoke with a few other people after I posted this. A professor’s wife told me that they moved two weeks after her husband received his first offer, fortunately they sold their house quickly in a good market. The next job held the offer (TT) for a year before he came. Her advice was to jump on mine. My family are adamant I take it. My partner says take it. The only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger is anxiety.

          1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

            I feel you. But congratulations! I really hope you can figure out a way to make it work!

      2. GingerSheep*

        What type of onboarding is it? I held for a few months a postdoc position in a danish university last year (quit after 4 months because I was hired in a tenure track position, yay!), and they wanted me to do the institutional onboarding at a specific date, because the university held only a few sessions a year. However, that was an international move for me, which I wasn’t able to make before the session. So I just flew over for a week, did the onboarding, returned home and officially started my postdoc six weeks later. Could something like that be considered? (My contract stated the later date as start date, but as I had already signed it before the onboarding, I was allowed to do it prematurely.)(The onboarding days were unpaid, but they reimbursed my flights and accomodations.)

    5. GingerSheep*

      Ah, the academic job market. I have so much to unpack here… I was very lucky in getting hired in a tenure track position only two years out of my PhD, and was therefore on the market only twice.
      My situation was relatively confortable (though I am a single mother with a small child to support) : I had secured a two-year, half-time teaching position at my PhD institution that started two months after my defense, and could complement that salary by contract work. I went on the market lightly that first year, and had no bites whatsoever : no interviews, all funding requests denied. That sucked, but I knew I hadn’t gone all out.
      The second year (2018-2019), I really gave it all I had. It was BRUTAL. I’m not entirely sure I have yet recovered. And I only applied to six positions. (I know that doesn’t seem a lot, but it definitely is when you consider I was submitting between 10 and 50 pages of specifically written material for each – two positions asked for both a 20-page report on previous research and a 25-page research project for the next 10 years! Plus of course the standard CV, cover letter, etc. One of my applications was 69 pages long.) I spent the whole year completely stressed out and frantically scrambling to meet deadlines. My job search was actually wildly successful, as I reached finalist status for five positions, and was offered a tenure-track position at a highly regarded institution in my own city and two post-docs. But it definitely did not feel successful during the process. It felt awful. Cornelian choices – should I accept this less than ideal postdoc, or hope that one of my applications for a permanent position pans out? (I accepted it, and quit when I got hired in the TT . It went way better than expected.) Brutal interviews – one interviewer viciously tore down both my research and my person during a campus interview. (And I actually got hired? Whereas I didn’t get the position at the institution I felt I had excelled at my research presentation and job talk…) Contentious hiring – my hire was apparently very controversial and was decided against the hiring committee president’s opinion, so I was received quite coldly. And then a another finalist started a lawsuit against the university (and my hire) saying that he was the victim of age discrimination. Sigh.
      So whereas I should have be overjoyed, I was just stressed out all of the time. And I can’t say it gets better once you’re in the job : the first semester of classes is HARD. But I am also fully aware that my second semester is way lighter on teaching, and that next year will be much easier.
      I and really, really enjoyed being off the market this year!
      So yeah, I fully empathize with you and wish you the best of luck!

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        Thank you for sharing this it’s wild! I’m glad you landed on your feet— I hope the institution warms up to you soon!

  14. Tableau Wizard*

    how do you handle trying to recruit someone into a workplace that you are desperately trying to leave?

    I’m really frustrated with my current team, boss and employer in general. The current budget plan says that we will be hiring for a position this spring. If i’m not gone by then, how do i participate in the hiring process in good faith when I really just want to tell people to run away, run far away???

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      Alison has some old posts on this – in some cases if you really feel that your company/office misleads people during the hiring process, it may be appropriate to ask them for an after-hours off-the-record coffee or let them know you’re available for any other questions by email or phone.

      Good luck. I totally understand the position you’re in.

    2. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Can you put a review on Glassdoor without identifying yourself? I’ve been job hunting for a while and I usually at least take a glance at those. And if you are part of the interviewing and have to do it with other people present, can you ask “tell me about a time when you dealt with X type of personality”? I just had an interview and was asked something like that. And when I was taken around to meet and chat with the staff briefly, I knew exactly who they were talking about. It was definitely helpful. I was also asked about how I felt about routine tasks which I can see if a big part of the job.
      So if you can, figure out a few specific things that most frustrate you and maybe try to come up with a “warning” type question about the candidate’s experience with X task or Y (annoying) process.

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        This is tricky because in general, I’d wholeheartedly endorse my employer for certain types of roles, but my role is so specific and the contribution we can provide isn’t valued. So if you are a llama groomer, come work here – it’s amazing. But if you’re a fellow Tableau Wizard who has to report to Gandalf, run away, run far away. I don’t want to discourage the Llama groomers on glassdoor, because the mission of our organization is something that I do believe in. Does that make sense?

        1. M*

          You could probably just say some version of literally this on glassdoor. Assuming there’s more than a couple of people in those undervalued roles and even a standard rate of turnover, there are ways to say that that aren’t particularly identifiable. “Pros: this is a great place to work for llama groomers and the core company mission is very important; Cons: if you’re in a more niche role, like [list of teams the company doesn’t value as much], your mileage may vary, the company’s not great at valuing non-llama-grooming contributions”

    3. DCGirl*

      I would also remind myself, if appropriate, that while the company may not be the right place for me, it could be a good place for someone else.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. Just because it sucks for you, doesn’t mean someone else will hate it. From TW’s post above, her role itself doesn’t appear to be valued in the organization – that would demoralize me and also make me want to leave. However, there may be a job candidate out there that’s coming from a high-stress environment who wantsto work somewhere they can literally turn their brain off and do basic work and collect a check in peace. So I agree with the advice above to go into these interviews asking questions that are geared towards figuring out if the candidate would be okay accepting what you find unacceptable in your current position.

      2. Erin*

        I want to second what DCGirl said. I think that as long as you don’t lie to or mislead candidates, you can participate in the hiring process in good conscience. There are a lot of reasons why the position might still be a good choice for someone, and the responsibility of deciding that for them doesn’t rest on you!

    4. JustaTech*

      When we were hiring while also getting ready for a bankruptcy (that was fun) and my team’s main project was circling the drain, we were just really honest without being bitter, mean, or overly-negative.
      “Here’s where the company is, here’s where our main project is, but also here are the cool people who work here and the interesting overall product.”
      I was amazed we hired someone, but they’d just been laid off from a similar company, and their thinking (they later told me) was “better another layoff in 6 months than nothing”.

      So, honesty with out bitterness, if you can.

    5. Hmmm*

      I used to give truthful statements that should raise red flags to most people looking for a job. Statements like, “Having been here 2 years I am one of the older employees,” “Flexibility is important in this role as priorities shift often and rapidly,” “Due to turnover, we often have to cover more than one role,” etc. I said everything as a statement with little emotion. Good luck!

  15. Help*

    Any scripts or advice for dealing with lots of interpersonal drama and gossip in the work place? Coworker is radiating a lot of drama my way, but I just want to keep my head down and work. Boss is their best friend, so nothing will happen. Plus, they cry to her and make it seem like I’m the one at fault. Other times, they think I’m mad or upset, when I’m just quiet and keep to myself. (I’m still polite and greet everyone, I just am not as exuberant as them.)

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, you can’t manage other people’s feelings (especially if they’re a drama llama) and it’s not your responsibility to do so. Just in case no one has reminded you of that lately.

      Some script ideas:

      Drama Llama (in your hearing): “Coworker is mad at me! Wah wah wah…”
      You, in a warm tone: “Hi Drama Llama, sorry, I overheard you thought I was mad. I’m just focused on my work. What made you think I was mad? That’s so silly :D”

      Boundary-Crossing Boss: “I heard [drama drama drama] and that’s making me concerned.”
      You, in a confused tone: “Oh, that’s really surprising to me! I didn’t realize that was a problem to ask Coworker to [do one of their job responsibilities]. Has something shifted in our roles and responsibilities?”

        1. JustaTech*

          Drama requires three things: the primary person (the drama llama), the person of conflict (you, another coworker), and an audience (boss, everyone in the office). If you refuse to be the villain to their hero then they’re stuck giving another monologue rather than having great dialog.

          If you think about something like Hamlet, there’s a reason that the whole play isn’t just Hamlet talking to himself – other people is where the conflict and the drama come from. So by staying quiet and not rising to the drama llama’s bait, you’re really limiting how much drama they can make with you. So it’s exactly the right approach, even if it’s really hard to bit your tongue that much.

          Good luck!

        2. LKW*

          You can always say “I’m sorry, I don’t understand your comment, can you clarify?” as if drama llama was saying something as work-relevant as “The copier is busted again.” It’s not dramatic but it does subtly call out dramatic behavior.

        3. Jean*

          In my view, it’s always OK to ignore drama type things that are not within the scope of your actual work. If you’re really worried about possible repercussions against you due to the relationship between crybaby and Boss, then there’s nothing wrong with informally documenting your interactions so you have something to refer back to if sh*t goes sideways.

    2. Joie*

      Just keep doing what you’re doing around the drama – if you don’t engage often it will fade out, drama is no fun for anyone when it’s one sided (and even the boss will notice it’s one sided). I also am fond of passively being obnoxiously nice to them all the time, but I enjoy watching people squirm when they’re trying to start something and I’m refusing to engage.

      I’m also fairly quiet and keep to myself but on occasion reaching out to someone about something not work related goes a really long way on the perception scale. At least once a week make a point to join in on non-work chatter.
      Sometimes I talk about the commute in, or just something weird that’s happening / join in on an existing conversation about something I like or know. A few sentences here and there with a smile and all of a sudden its “Joie’s just quiet” instead of “Joie is quiet which obviously means she’s upset”

    3. Help*

      I just feel embarrassed because it’s like they all know and talk about it. I feel like the joke’s on me, but I dont know what to do about it.

  16. Qwertyuiop*

    At a meeting, there was something mentioned about some interns at my company refusing with one another. I work with the interns, but hadn’t heard the news, so I asked my coworker about it. She was telling me about it and our boss was there and sort of looked at us. My coworker then told her what we were talking about- she seemed apologetic about it. (It wasn’t a secret- we were openly discussing it just 5 minutes prior!)

    Another time, a coworker and I were making small talk in the morning. My boss walked in and my coworker stops mid-sentence and starts apologizing profusely to my boss and starts talking to her and walked away from our conversation.

    I’m new in my position, so I’m still trying to figure out the place, but are they not supposed to be talking to me or something? It seems like they mostly talk to me when the boss is not around, so I don’t know if the boss doesn’t like people talking? But she’ll make comments that it’s “too quiet”, so I don’t think we’d get in trouble for talking. I’m very confused.

    Any advice or insight?

    1. Sunflower*

      This seems odd and may be a weird thing that your coworker has instead of a weird thing about the boss. Next time it happens, can you ask your coworker?

    2. Lana Kane*

      If this were just one person doing it, I’d think that it’s just a hangup they have about being seen chatting. But since it’s more than one, I’d definitely ask someone I trusted. There are definitely managers who say one thing (it’s too quiet), but then contradict themselves (Jane, I see you chatting around the office and that’s a problem).

      Also, is your boss newer? Maybe a previous manager was a stickler for no chatting?

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      “refusing”?
      Is this an autocorrect I can’t parse out, or new slang usage I need to learn from the family teen?

    4. Emilitron*

      One sounds like a conversation that’s borderline gossip, maybe colleague thought this is something the interns should be handling without getting the boss involved, or at the least wanted to phrase things differently for the different audience.

      The other sounds like maybe they had a check-in scheduled and got distracted talking to you when they were due elsewhere.

      I wouldn’t read too much into it, except that your coworker seems to respect your boss’s opinion and time. I don’t think my office is abnormal in that when the manager walks into the room we immediately (or quickly at least) focus on why they’re there and what they need from us, and that often means pausing or redirecting casual conversations.

    5. learnedthehardway*

      Sounds to me that your coworker got a talking to from your boss about gossiping in the workplace, and then proceeded to gossip again – hence the profuse apologies when your boss walked in on the second incident.

      So – not anything you did wrong, but perhaps be aware that your boss does not want the staff gossiping. Perhaps the idea is that the interns have been spoken with about how to behave professionally, and your boss wants everyone else to let the issue alone.

  17. MissBookworm*

    Some updates on prior posts I’ve made a new issue I need help with.

    Currently in the midst of year end audit hell—wondering whose bright idea it was to schedule the audit before we even finished our month-end reporting and reconciliations for December (our owners scheduled it too early this time; usually it’s starting about the 20th). Boss isn’t back from medical leave until the 21st, so he’s missing the audit completely, and we’re having to answer all the questions he usually handles. I feel like this isn’t going to end well.

    I am finished for now with planning this retirement party. Two weeks to go! I have the headcount set, the menu set, and the retirement gift ordered. All that’s left is wrapping the gift when it comes in, getting everyone to sign the card, and decorating the venue (thankfully a coworker is getting the decorations and will help me with decorating).

    So, the new issue. This is mostly for people who handle AP. I wear many hats in my company’s accounting department (AP, AR, financial analyst, etc. mostly for our clients which are large companies outsourcing specific lines of business). I have multiple check runs that I have to process every month for these clients, in one month I could process anywhere from 30-500 checks and up to 60 ACH’s (most of our payees still prefer check). Our deadline for check registers from other departments is 10am on Tuesday and Thursday, so that we have time to get approvals, get the funds transferred to the correct accounts to make those payments, get the checks printed, signed, and backup printed as well or to process those ACHs. Based on the number of check registers, the number of checks/ACHs, the time I have to work on it, and the availability of signers, we may be able to get checks mailed the same day or it may take up to three days (the 500 checks are going to take a longer time to process than 30).

    Anyway, one of my coworker’s in another department got really mad at me this morning. I had printed checks at 3pm yesterday (remember we have our year end financial audit going on so I was too busy to print them any earlier) and they should hopefully be going out today or Monday depending on when the check signers get them back to me. Coworker told payee the checks had gone out yesterday. I responded just to my coworker that the checks hadn’t gone out yet and probably wouldn’t until Monday at the latest—a 3 business day turnaround. She was not impressed and went to her manager who went to my manager and complained that 3 days is unacceptable and none of our check runs should take that long to process fully.

    Check runs aren’t always a priority—there are times when I have projects with important deadlines and I just can’t get those checks done for a day or two.

    I guess my question is what is the turnaround at your company? I’ve dealt with numerous vendors who have much longer turnaround times and some who have turnarounds similar to ours where it could take three or four days.

    1. WellRed*

      Shouldn’t paying employees promptly be a top priority always? It’s not clear from this if they are getting paid on time (per federal law). What day is payday and when do they actually get the checks?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I may have been reading it wrong, but I don’t think this employee payroll, but vendor paychecks.

          1. MissBookworm*

            Diahann is correct. These aren’t payroll (that’s next week). These are vendor payments that we calculate and process on behalf of our clients.

            Payroll definitely does not wait and never would; it’s also not handled by me (thankfully as I have absolutely no time for it).

      2. Generalist*

        This isn’t about paychecks, the post is referring to payments to vendors. Three to four day turnaround isn’t bad, but I can’t quite tell if that’s the time from when the invoice was received or how you’re counting it, OP. Many places have a particular day of the week when checks are cut. So depending when you submit a request the longest you’d have to wait might be eight or nine days. But I think the issue is less the actual turnaround time and more about expectations. You may want to get boss to set and communicate a policy when he gets back.

        1. MissBookworm*

          My counts are from when I receive the requests. Our actual turnarounds vary depending on agreements we have with our clients and that covers both the other department and what they do with the invoices and our portion of it in the accounting department. They are anywhere from five to twenty days, but our clients do approve reasonable extensions if we absolutely need it (especially the client with the five day turnaround).

          I think I am going to get my boss involved when he’s back. He’s one of the designated signers so maybe he’ll actually be able to get through to them.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      **shrugs** Coworker shouldn’t have made promises to the vendor.

      Accountants like everything perfect, but the reality is – there are people involved. You spent a whole essay explaining the chaos that is a normal business, and sometimes businesses don’t run as efficiently (or as cleanly) as we would like.

      When I’m a signer at small companies, I only do check runs when I have time to complete them all the way through. So- same day.

      At larger companies? 3- 7 days. But they usually have more than one signer. (I had one large homebuilder CEO who refused to let anyone else sign, and he was a control freak and would want to “research” all the big checks. Some checks would sit foooorrrever – In retrospect he was probably hiding cash-flow issues.)

      In the end it doesn’t matter. You can’t control the mail, anywhoo.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        I experience a similar situation to both Campfire Racoon and OP. I try very hard to get vendor payments processed and mailed same day, but it’s not a guarantee.
        For reference I can have anywhere from 30-60 in an average week. One man department. If I get busy or boss comes in to ask for a to reprioritization of my day then the whole process of double checking against both systems, selecting, printing, transfering funds, signing, compiling, stuffing and mailing takes longer. But it doesn’t always happen. Your coworker doesn’t realize how much is involved in getting checks in the mail!
        Bookworm, don’t beat your self up. My boss did the same thing this week. They told someone a check went out when it is still in my pile to sign and then got short with me. It has been a very busy first week back after the holidays and I am still looking at my Wednesday work hoping I can complete it today.
        I agree that year end stinks! I spent most of last week wishing I could have taken more time off.

        1. MissBookworm*

          She really doesn’t understand it and seems to forget that I don’t just handle AP. I still have receivables to process and reports to work on every day plus meetings—those don’t come to a stop just because I have a check run to process. Sometimes my other duties are my priority and I can’t stop what I’m doing to process a check run (especially this week with the audit—I was in a conference room with the auditors for nearly three hours on Thursday). There’s maybe one week every couple of months where I can get it done in a day. She only ever remembers those weeks and not the ones where it takes a couple days.

    3. vlookup*

      I work in the finance department at a midsized nonprofit and we typically print checks once a week. I try not to make exceptions to this unless someone has arranged it with us in advance. We send a confirmation to the requester so they know when the check has been mailed.

      Expectation setting is really important IMO. If possible, I would recommend messaging a turnaround time with some padding built in.

      We used to be a lot more lenient about processing off-cycle checks, because most of the time it’s NBD, but it led to lots of situations like what you’re dealing with (people getting frustrated when we couldn’t accommodate a last-minute request that was clearly not a true emergency). Things have improved since we set a more consistent schedule and enforced it.

      1. MissBookworm*

        We used to not have deadlines for requests (or even set days), then about a year ago we had a lot of issues with people giving us check requests on Monday with 1 check, and a check request on Tuesday with 3, Wednesday with 1 more, etc. so we switched to two days a week because that’s just ridiculous. That happening once or twice a month I could understand, but every day?

        Many emails have gone out since the switch, so I think I’m going to have my boss step in when he returns.

    4. Bubbles*

      I’m in K-12 Education so it is a bit different here, but we are required to submit all invoices for payment with appropriate backup by noon on Tuesday, checks cut Thursday morning, then signed by 2 of approved signers. While we make it a point to make sure there are 2 signers available, one may be available Thursday and one may be available Friday morning. Our checks are not guaranteed until Friday. That’s at our site. At the District level, check runs are Thursdays only and you typically have to request that your Tuesday submission is included in Thursday’s run or it will be processed the next week.

      1. MissBookworm*

        We have the same situation with our signers. We only have three designated in our office and need two for every check, so it can get really complicated at times. For example, if one is out on leave or a business trip and another calls out. We’ve even had no signers in the office when a priority comes through (I had to overnight a check once to two of our signers who were at a conference)—thankfully this happens rarely.

    5. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yeah, people be crazy about the timing of checks. We have only 1 check run a week, anywhere from 60 – 180 checks. Check signing happens anywhere from next day to 3 business days later depending on a number of factors – check signer availability, any questions they may have, and larger checks need 2+ signers depending on the total amount. If I have to take a check to the CEO for signature, it’s definitely going to take extra time.

      Nonetheless, I have people in other departments who tell their vendors checks are mailed the same day they are cut, which is patently not true and I always give them the correct time frame. I’ve now reached the point where I make sure to clearly communicate the time frames by email. If someone else gives out the wrong info, I just forward the original email to them and ask them to follow up. Only once have I had to go to someone’s manager and ask them to direct their employee to stop misleading vendors (in other words tell your idjit direct report to stop lying to people!)

      And I’ve had a few vendors blow up about. Certain staff in the past were pretty well known for promising any payment terms a vendor asked for, even when it was beyond our ability to meet them. Pray tell, when it takes 5 days in your receiving process and 5 days in my payment cycle (minimum), can we possibly pay net 3 day terms? Oh, you didn’t think about it when you promised the vendor and now it’s my fault? Hmm. Nope, I won’t take responsibility for that.

      I’ve gotten off track here, so let me sum this up:

      Save an email template for yourself with the typical processing times for checks – which day(s) they are cut and how many business days for mailing. Very clearly state any communication to payees should be ‘checks will be mailed within X business days of when they are cut’. Once you’ve sent that out in writing, keep the template for re-use later. Anyone who then goes out on their own telling people untruths about the check mailing can be referred back to the written reality. Caveat: Be very sure your upper management has your back and is on board with this, obviously, you want their support when politely telling people to stop rejecting reality.

      Once you’ve told people… This will still happen. Human beings are nothing if not reliable for screwing things up and some truly determined to make things more difficult than necessary. Once you’ve put the information out there and saturated the environment as much as possible, most of the grumbling should subside. And if someone truly doesn’t like it, that is their problem and you shouldn’t feel bad for failing to warp the fabric of the universe to meet their expectations.

      1. MissBookworm*

        Thanks for the advice! We have done emails many times before (with the same people over and over), so I think it’s time to have my boss handle it when he returns.

        I wish I could just brush it off, but I am definitely that person who second guess everything in these situations even when I know I did the right thing.

    6. Maddy*

      Vendor cheques are according to terms. Ie 30 days or on receipt. On receipt invoices go into the next cheque run which are done on Thursdays. So if I get an invoice today and IF I get it back from who needs to approve it in a timely manner it goes into the cheque run on Thursday. If it has a PO it can be processed right away with no one having to approve it.

      30 days invoices get processed the week they arrive and go into the cheque run on the week that will allow processing and still get to the vendor in time by mail to make it under the 30 day mark (so roughly 2-3 weeks from now depending on where the vendor is)
      Then the cheque run has to get signed which is out of my control. That can take up to half a day or up to a week (clearly issues there that I can’t resolve).
      2-3 days turnaround on vendor cheques is INCREDIBLY fast. Especially for that volume!
      I spent approximately 90% of my time on payables and I don’t turn around cheques that fast. I do about 100 -150 cheques and about 300-400 invoices per week. I enter the invoices and do the cheque run and take care of getting invoices approved. I also separate the cheques and attach to the back up and I am scrambling to get it done by end of day Thursday.

      I always tell people I don’t care what you told someone; this gets done when it gets done. There is so much that is out of my control (especially the signing!) that I can’t promise how fast it will get done. Plus if I have a lot of volume it takes time! When a vendor calls I just say it’s in the next cheque run (or wherever it is- usually the next one if a vendor is calling) and when it’s done it will go out right away. I never promise anything. It’s not my fault if someone promised someone something without asking me first. They can explain that they over promised.

      1. MissBookworm*

        Ours are based on the agreements with have with our clients. On the short end we have 5 days and on the long end it’s 20. The rest fall somewhere in between.

        I generally spend about 15% of my week on payables, some weeks like this one are more like 30%. We have one client that we only do once a month (and is my biggest check request) that takes me almost six hours from start to finish without interruptions. There are always interruptions though so it takes me more like two or three days (sometimes four at the most), especially when you add in my usual weekly check requests. Guess which week it is?

        Waiting for the signers to sign the checks is the worst part of it. We need two signers on every check and only have three designated signers in the office. For two of our clients if it’s over a certain amount the second signature has to be from their office, so that also increases the turnaround time.

    7. Maddy*

      The other thing is you can’t control the mail. I have had SO MANY inquiries about when the cheque was mailed and when it’s going to arrive. It will get there when it gets there! I can tell you when it was mailed but I don’t control the postal service. If you want to pay for courier then it will get there faster! So annoying.

      1. MissBookworm*

        Tell me about it! We have some people who receive the checks in two days and others where it takes a week or more (according to them). If it absolutely needs to be received ASAP we’ll overnight or second day it, but the client has to cover the cost so it’s rarely done.

    8. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      We have it in our contracts that we have 30 days to pay vendors.

  18. Sharkie*

    Moving as a company is not fun. The amount of stuff I have to go through cause no one has gone through it is 25 years is alarming.

    2. On the Move*

      Just went through this at my company this summer. It was terrible but it was a relief when we were done and moved into our nice new building!

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      I can empathize. We recently re-org’d our department and there was stuff that hadn’t been touched in that long. I was out sick for two days hacking it all up out of my lungs.

      1. Michelle*

        Anything I am in charge of “checking” that has an inch of dust and hasn’t been opened in years go straight to the dumpster. If you haven’t needed it in 25 years, you don’t need it now.

    5. JustaTech*

      Oh, I feel your pain. I had to clean out several labs where everyone had been laid off (and therefore had neither time nor inclination to clean up before they left). Oh, and scientists are the biggest hoarders I’ve ever seen. Like, librarians don’t even come close.

      And because they’re not just hoarding paperwork every box, bottle, cabinet and drawer had to be opened, the contents carefully evaluated by someone who knows what all that stuff is, and properly disposed of (sink, chemical waste, biohazard waste, recycle, trash, give to other departments, give to schools, etc etc).

      And then there’s all the paperwork that you have to check for 1) intellectual property, 2) privileged medical information, 3) legal stuff, 4) regulatory stuff, 5) stuff that’s still in the “required to keep” time window.

      Good luck!

    7. Leisel*

      I recently had to clean a lot of stuff out of the storage room when our grandboss retired and left the company. The office admin decided to retire at the same time. I found –

      – Sweet & Low, Sugar, Creamer and various coffee supplies from 2008
      – A set of cassette tapes with business advice labeled for 1996
      – An old Nokia phone – I wish I could fire it up and play Snake!
      – A manual for a Mac computer from 2002
      – Catalogs and catalogs and catalogs and catalogs for various vendors – all of which are online now…why were we keeping these??? They took up an entire 3-drawer filing cabinet!

      I single-handedly filled up 3 recycling bins at our office complex. Sorry, neighbors, it had to be done!

      1. hermit crab*

        Once when we moved offices – from a space we’d only inhabited for a few years! – I found a pair of beige high heels in a filing cabinet. They looked like they were straight out of the 1980s. Nobody claimed them. Nobody even admitted to recognizing them. The last time I was in that office suite (to do a post-move sweep of my own workspace; someone else was coming later to clear out the trash) they were still sitting there, forlorn.

    8. Third or Nothing!*

      We are all getting thrown out of the building so the main tenant can take the whole building over and make it their admin HQ. Gonna be going through something similar soon. We’ve been here about 6 years now so there will be less to sort through, but I am not looking forward to cleaning out my desk.

      Amusing aside: the building management, an arm of the main tenant, is basically terrible. We’re constantly running out of soap, toilet paper, paper towels, and not getting a real cleaning from the cleaning crew. One tenant used to have the entire 4th floor to themselves. They left several years ago even though their lease wasn’t up yet. They locked all access to the floor and have been paying out their lease this whole time just so the terrible main tenant can’t access it until it’s up. That is some deeply satisfying revenge and a level of petty I enjoy viewing but can never pull off myself.

      1. Marthooh*

        Prediction: It turns out the 4th floor tenant stole all the soap and toilet paper to create giant “F*** YOU!” murals on every available wall space just before they left, as a time-delayed surprise for the building management when they finally get in there.

    9. Jules the First*

      Oh I have such *fond* memories of spending my Christmas vacation packing and unpacking other people’s crap…and then crawling around under the desks to try and figure out which telephone extension mapped where after our IT contractor decided to get artistic when hooking up all the network cables. Fun times…

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Kindred spirit, heeeeey!

      In that boat with you. I’ve destroyed so much stuff that’s been rotting all these years. And there’s more to go! While doing a job on top of it all of course lol

    11. Jemima Bond*

      Oh I feel your pain. When I moved to a new team once and adopted a new pedestal and desk, the large bottom drawer of the said pedestal was full of old papers that really had to be shredded not just chucked, because government. I went to the admin team to ask for a confidential waste bag (which I would seal and would then be taken away and incinerated) and you’d have thought I’d asked for the moon on a stick. I gave up and spent half an hour feeding it all manually into the shredder.

      That said there could be positives. My team took over a bit more of a shared open plan office including some cupboards. Pleas to previous incumbents to clear out remaining stuff fell on deaf ears. So it was declared fair game and I came out of it with a hot brush heat hair styler thingy (working order, good brand) and four sealed mini perfumes, you know from one of those sets of five you get for gifts or at airports.

  19. Ms Freeze*

    Problem Employee is driving me crazy this week. Despite being told multiple times that he needs to pull more support tickets and that he cannot just pull the junk mail that comes into the support ticket box, he continues to pull a low # (compared to others in the dept), and tries to supplement this with junk emails and even pulling emails from his own inbox into the support ticket box so that he can flag them as support work. He claims that he is too busy with phone support to help, but his call times are awful mostly because he refuses to escalate calls to the correct teams and instead fix everything himself and get involved in things that he shouldn’t. He’s insufferably arrogant, has mansplained my job to me on more than one occassion, and eavesdrops on my phone calls so that he can give me his opinion on escalated issues.
    Why not put him on PIP or fire? We are in the middle of a huge hiring freeze. Those aren’t our of the ordinary for this business at this time of the year, but the freeze was kicked off by a massive layoff. My department lost 20% of our employees. We are massively understaffed and drowning in work. I’ve already been notified that if I fire anyone or anyone quits that we will have to carry on without replacing them. There is not a light at the end of the tunnel on this yet. Big boss does not want me to put anyone on PIP for fear that they will quit or that I’ll be forced to fire them if they don’t improve. He does want me to continue to hold employees accountable for performance issues but just talk to them. I’m so sick of talking to Problem Employee about this that I might lose my mind.
    Help!

      1. Ms Freeze*

        Barely. Big Boss (newer to the org) received the notification while I was on vacation, made the decisions based solely on seniority, and gave the names to HR while I was out. I came back the day that the cuts were being made and couldn’t change the cuts. Problem Employee was in the training group ahead of the group that got cut.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Yup. I don’t understand higher ups who make these kinds of decisions without getting input from the front line managers who actually work with the staff and would have a better idea who’s an asset to the company and who isn’t. I worked at a law firm where HR was the one who made the lay-off decisions, and I was let go four weeks after starting in one of their twice yearly purges (they let go of about a hundred temps from the same agency I worked for) – my supervisor and manager weren’t consulted at all and both were pissed. Three weeks later, I was brought back by HR with an apology that they were having financial issues and had to make staff cuts, but in four weeks, I had already proven myself to be such an asset they had to bring me back (I should have never been cut to begin with, then, lol).

            After that, HR started getting direct manager approvals and lists of employees they were happy to see go from then on for their cuts.

        2. Allison*

          Oh man, if I was a diligent, hard-working member of the team I would’ve been so mad if I’d been laid off but heard this guy got to stay, or if other people I liked were laid off but not him. Not that managers typically have to deal with anger or resentment from former employees, but it could still cause some morale issues within the remaining team.

    2. BlindChina*

      Are there other consequences you can give him? Work no one else likes? Also are you being REALLY blunt when you talk to him? It really sucks you can’t put him on a PIP as that would be best. Good luck!

      1. Ms Freeze*

        oh so blunt.
        I’ve pulled him in with Big Boss twice to demonstrate this issue.
        First time:
        Me: PE, it’s 4PM and 5 hours into your shift, and when I look at the support tickets, I see that you have completed zero. What’s going on?
        PE: I’ve just had so many complicated calls that I couldn’t do any support tickets.
        Me: I pulled the 45 minute call that you were on this morning. That should have been escalated to the Teapot Spout Team. That wasn’t something that you could resolve. Why did you work on it for 43 minutes before escalating it?
        PE: Well, I thought I could help.
        Me: We’ve talked about this before. When a customer has a Spout issue, those need to be escalated to the Spout team. You shouldn’t keep trying to fix it.
        Big Boss: But we know that your heart is in the right place and that you just want to make sure that the customer is supported.
        Me: (continuing) In the future, those calls need to be escalated sooner, and we need to see you completing X# of tickets per hour.

        Next time:
        Me: PE, we talked before about needing to complete X# of support tickets per hour.
        PE: Right, and I’ve been a lot better about it.
        Me: When I look at the total number of tickets that you process, the numbers are working out, but when I filter out all of the junk emails, it looks like you only did 2 tickets all day. What happened?
        PE: What? I did way more than that.
        Me: No, you only have 2. These junk mails should be put into the junk folder to be auto-deleted at the end of the week.
        PE: Well, I didn’t know those were junk and had to read them thoroughly.
        Me: Ok, well this format will always be a junk email. You can tell by this subject line. Also, we can tell by the time stamps that you’re not pulling the support tickets in the order that they arrive. Make sure that you’re not spending time going through the box looking for specific tickets to pull. Pull the next one chronologically
        (In other words, he was scrolling through the support box to look for junk mails and pull them before someone else could move them to the correct folder).

        1. Dragoning*

          I already feel like I’m beating my head against the wall. I can’t imagine what this is like for you.

          Can you take him off the phones entirely?

        2. bunniferous*

          What if you told him as soon as the hiring freeze is over his butt is gone? (more tactfully obviously.)

        3. Diahann Carroll*

          You have two problems: Big Boss is undermining you and your authority and PE is lazy. I completely understand why you’re frustrated – that sucks you can’t just fire PE right now. He’s literally not adding anything of value to your team.

          You know what? You should go ahead and fire PE anyway, freeze and all. As I was typing that sentence out, I realized the truth of that statement: PE isn’t actually working. Therefore, he’s not actually helping you guys get through the massive amount of work that needs to be done in your department and he’s actually causing more work because you have to keep spending time correcting him. He’s a time and resource suck – he’s literally being paid to do nothing all day every day. I’d talk to Big Boss and tell him you need to begin the separation process then come up with a plan for how to carry on with one less body indefinitely if necessary.

          1. Jean*

            RIGHT? This guy is adding no value either way. Besides, even if he’s being coddled there’s nothing stopping him from just up and quitting anyway, or getting hit by a garbage truck or something, so it’s hard to understand why big boss seems so desperate to keep him on. So frustrating.

            1. valentine*

              You should go ahead and fire PE anyway, freeze and all. As I was typing that sentence out, I realized the truth of that statement: PE isn’t actually working. Therefore, he’s not actually helping you guys get through the massive amount of work that needs to be done in your department and he’s actually causing more work because you have to keep spending time correcting him.
              Here’s the bottom line.

              Fire him. BB can’t fire you because freeze! Win/win! And your team will probably ramp up due to the morale boost.

              But what you have here is a BB problem. If BB would shut PE down when he complains you need his permission to task him(sexist!) and help you cut the dead weight, you wouldn’t have needed a massive layoff. Literally the last person hired would’ve been a better keep than this guy, and if the laid-off group knows, it must be cold comfort that the company is a bullet dodged. BB has you spinning your wheels. He has made you Sisyphus and PE is your rock. Or Prometheus/eagle.

              Can you not set the junk email to auto-archive or somehow prevent him from moving it? Instead of asking him why he did what he did wrong (since you know and it doesn’t matter a bit!), ask him how he’s going to change his process so he does what he’s meant to do. This is a “failing to plan is planning to fail.” And, since you’re spending so much time on this, what if you sit with him and tell him which emails to pull? Any chance he’d get sick of it and do it right? Or would BB chastise you for hurting his manfeels?

          2. NW Mossy*

            Been there, done that. Can confirm that firing an underperformer during a freeze was nothing but upside for me and the team, even without a replacement. The only feedback I got from the team afterwards was “wow, I have a lot more time in my day now that I’m not cleaning up their messes all day.” No regrets!

        4. kittymommy*

          Honestly, how much work is he really doing to justify staying there in a hiring freeze? It already sounds like he isn’t doing any real work (or any significant amount) so you may need to compare the amount of increased work you and your tam will get from him not being there to how much this may end up being an employee morale issue with the others. I know you don’t get too much into it but I cannot imagine that his lack of work and lack of any real consequences isn’t sitting well with the other team members.

        5. I'llcallyouSpeak*

          Can you assign him work rather than letting him choose the tickets to pull? I know it sounds like this is the standard process, but if it is allowing him to wriggle out of his responsibilities, it may be worth being more hands on with what gets assigned to whom.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        This! Colleagues and employees aren’t a value of zero or one to productivity, they can be a negative value (i.e. a drag) on productivity as well.

      2. Ms Freeze*

        If it weren’t for the phones : yes. Our hold time right now is over 40 minutes, so we are getting screamed at left, right, and down. BB feels that some phone calls/support tickets answered is better than none.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          But if PE is answering phones and then sitting on them for 45 minutes, that’s not really a great idea either. If I’m the caller from your example you gave and PE kept me on the phone that long only to tell me he was going to transfer me to another team, the exact team I should have gone to in the first place, I would be pissed! Nobody has time to be sitting on the phone like that (well, besides PE). So he’s not really helping the general reputation you all have in that company, trust me.

          Your boss is not thinking clearly.

        2. Dragoning*

          Is it? If I had to spend 43 minutes on the phone with someone who wasn’t helping me, I would be furious. I’d rather sit on hold.

        3. Jennifer Thneed*

          I think that BB should maybe be helping on the phones? Maybe just for one day, and have him sit next to Problem Employee to directly observe.

    4. WellRed*

      If you are not going to deal with this guy and hold him accountable for fear of losing him (?!? is he that great of a loss if he isn’t actually producing?), then prepare to lose other employees who see this going on (and trust me, they do and will resent him and you for it), so you’ll be even more understaffed. Extra so, because you will lost employees who actually produce.

      Sorry your boss won’t let you manage.

    5. Holy Moley*

      Can you directly send him support tickets? “Bob, work on the following tickets. I expect you to have them done by (time frame).”

      Does he know about the hiring freeze? Might be why he is skating by.

      1. Ms Freeze*

        This is actually what I’ve been doing for the last week, but I just had to have a conversation with BB this morning (hence my frustrated post) because PE felt that it was disrespectful for me to assign him work without asking him first.

        1. AL (the other one)*

          Aaaaghh! That must be so frustrating!

          It’s easy to sit at a keyboard and comment. And I know from what you said that you won’t be able to backfill the position.

          But I think you need to PIP him, starting Monday if possible. Otherwise you may end up with other people leaving, or starting to slack off.
          If you are already assigning tickets then tie that into the PIP, if you can? E. G. For at least one week, you manage and control the tickets he works on, and he only works on what you give him, with no phone calls. Sounds super draconian but might be the way to shake him up.

        2. Althea*

          “It’s far more disrespectful to continually ignore the direct and specific instructions I have been giving you. If you will ignore my direction like a toddler, I will assign you work like a toddler.”

          Not really, I suppose…! But if you can find a way to continue to tie his crap level of work to your increased involvement, that’s probably good. Maybe he’ll start doing at least enough to get you to stop….

        3. Red Fraggle*

          He what the what?! No wonder you’re frustrated. This entire situation is ridiculous, but I think that takes the cake.

        4. WellRed*

          “PE felt that it was disrespectful for me to assign him work without asking him first.”

          I am screaming in my cube reading this this.

          1. NW Mossy*

            I had someone else’s direct pull this one on me a couple of weeks ago. To which: “[Your grandboss] signed off on this before I gave it to you, so I assumed he’d discussed it with you.” After that, crickets.

            That’ll be a fun one to share with my colleague when she gets back from vacation. She’s going to find it about as funny as I did.

        5. Close Bracket*

          Is PE your direct report or BB’s direct report? If he’s your direct report, your response is that he can feel however he wants, but assigning work is part of being a manager and having work assigned is part of being a direct report so he should get used to it. If you mutually report to BB, then you would tailor that to how BB delegated the assigning part to you. Naturally, you should choose your wording more carefully than I did. The message definitely needs to be that managers assign work to direct reports, period.

        6. Lana Kane*

          “PE felt that it was disrespectful for me to assign him work without asking him first.”

          What did you tell him when he said that? The firmer your response is in asserting the fact that your job is to assign the work and his is to do it, the less he will feel like he can do stuff like this.

          I know, because I had a direct report like this. I got pretty blunt with her about what her job was vs mine. She eventually moved on to another team and I can’t say she is a sterling employee, but that kind of attitude has waned.

          If he doesn’t improve because the hiring freeze makes him feel safe – remember that hiring freezes don’t last forever. Document everything for when you *can* act on it.

        7. Jules the 3rd*

          What happens if you confront your boss on the lack of backup? ie, you say, ‘BB, I am assigning these to PE because he hasn’t changed despite our prior discussions, and I’m trying different things to see if there is something short of firing that we can do to get him to be effective. Can you support me in managing him? When he complains to you, can you tell him that my decisions have your full support, and he needs to follow them?”

          I get the issue with needing him on the phone, but: could you pick up calls if you weren’t sitting over his shoulder? Could you take, say, 30 minutes of calls 2x/day – let your team know when they are, and what the team contingency is during those times?

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            In the end you have a BB problem – if he backs you up, you’ll be more effective with PE. But thinking about a way to fire PE and not extend your call wait times would be the easiest solution. I mean, 30min/day OT for you (or even for a couple of team mates) is probably cheaper than 8hrs of PE .

        8. Donna*

          Your employee felt it was disrespectful that you, his manager, did your job as a manager and assigned him work?!?!?!?
          Put him on a PIP first thing Monday! He doesnt seem to respect you as his manager, so he needs to go. Your manager can’t possibly expect you to manage someone who bucks at being managed.
          Also, your manager sucks here too. He isn’t letting you manage properly and he is undermining you in front of your employees. It might be time to get away from both BB and PE.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      So he does one or two tickets a day. Given how much time you put into this guy’s work, you could probably do his one or two tickets per day PLUS your other work IF he was no longer there.

      He’s gotta be pulling morale down as others see he is not pulling his weight.

      Tell your BB this, ” I personally will do his one or two tickets per day once he is gone. And I will still have time left over to do my own work. We will never notice he is gone.”
      I have even gone with the sentence, “It’s not a loss.” You can’t miss help was never there to begin with.

    7. !*

      After going reading your initial post, the comments, and your comments to the comments, especially the one where he feels you are disrespecting him by assigning him tickets (?!) I can only surmise that PE is either related to or has something over the BB. My other thought is both are complete and utter misogynists so no matter what you say or do, you will always be wrong. I have this same issue where a certain group of consultants (all male, I am female) are always going over my head because I need them to comply with specific processes and they don’t want to deal.with.me at all. Thankfully, when they go over my head, they go to someone who not only agrees with me, but will tell them to follow what I say. Pull the numbers, if you fire PE what is the true workload that would need to be shifted, especially if he is only handling two tickets a day? In the meantime, is there any way you can better filter out the junk emails so he wastes less time going through them?

      1. pony tailed wonder*

        I like that last idea. Have another employee (or two so you can catch the ones that just some in) be responsible for going through the e-mails and purging the junk e-mails. Also, have twice daily check ins with him if it is possible.
        Another thing, when you go in to your big boss, have a chart that shows all of your employees work output. Make is a bar graph so it is very obvious that problem employee is standing out in a very bad way. The big boss might not realize how far away that the problem employee is compared to others.

    8. OhBehave!*

      This guy sounds like a huge jerk in addition to being useless.
      So if his productivity is nonexistent, would it really be a huge burden to take on his work?

    9. Information Central*

      Since there are commonalities in the junk subject lines, can you screen some of them out by email rule? And/or have someone more trustworthy do a junk sweep every so often to reduce the opportunity for malingering? For the phone calls, are there tools available to flag/monitor long calls when they’re happening?

      My other thought would be to stop caring so much. Boss thinks malingering with the occasional talking-to is acceptable, ok, that’s the standard you work to. Your goal isn’t to get Problem Child to keep up with everyone else, it’s to get >0 work out of him and get back to focusing on your own work. Keep Boss up to date, and let him decide if he wants things to change.

  20. Augusta Sugarbean*

    I’d like to apply for an admin support job at in a municipal government that runs a community service. One of the duties is:
    “Coordinate on-line systems for XYZ program.”
    and one of the supplemental questions is:
    “What is your experience managing on-line systems as part of an office environment?”
    I’m trying to figure out if I can compare any of my experience. Can anyone speculate what that means? I *think* it’s managing a volunteer database and maybe scheduling but since they don’t say that directly, I’m not sure. Thanks!

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      It may help if you copy in some of your experience to see if there’s a way to tweak it, but what you’re assuming makes sense here – calendar organizing/compiling for an office, database management/maintenance, general maintenance of confidentiality is what comes to mind for me.

    2. DataDiva*

      ‘Managing on-line systems’ makes me think of website management. Not even getting into coding, just like using WordPress. But I agree that a volunteer database or scheduling tool or even just like the ability to navigate Google Drive could also be the answer.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I guess I would talk about times I have either organized work for a group online or times I have participated in group work that had an online part. Have you worked with shared files online or on a local server?

    4. kittymommy*

      I’m trying to figure out what my org (municipal government) would mean by this… definitely nothing to involved, no coding, etc. We let our IT department handle that (or outside support), certainly not an admin. No offense (I’m an admin) but with security, spoofs, and people trying to hijack government websites, that level if IT/website handling will be done by individuals hired specifically for that.

      I suspect it’s probably basic website updating, fishing through and handling concerns/questions submitted from an online email or comment system. For example, low-income housing: update listing for providers with pertinent data, requirements, etc.; process any inquires that people send form on-line forms either by handling yourself or sending them to the appropriate areas; volunteer database and scheduling, especially if it’s done by a internal or security access only site makes sense as well.

    5. Not a cat*

      I used to work for a software vendor whose main client was SLG. They could be referring to the content management system, the website, the ERP system, the records management system, SharePoint……

    6. Augusta Sugarbean*

      I reread the job description with all your suggestions in mind. I think it is my original idea which is volunteer coordination and not IT stuff. Thank you all!

  21. Anon Applicant*

    Is reverse-discrimination a thing? As in, can a company decide they are not going to hire people in a majority race/religion/gender, etc. for a specific role because they want more diversity? Totally understand if it’s not a thing and this is perfectly ok – diversity is obviously important! – but it still feels weird to me?

    1. CatCat*

      That’s just flat out discrimination. If a company is not hiring someone because of [race/religion/gender/other protected characteristic], that is a serious problem.

      It doesn’t matter if their protected characteristics are shared with a majority of the population.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You cannot legally consider race/sex/religion/etc. in hiring decisions. You can undertake efforts to recruit more diverse candidate pools, but you cannot hire someone or reject them because they are Race X, regardless of what that race is.

      1. WellRed*

        Our local newspaper once offered an internship (only one slot or two slots, total, not one or two out of a bunch), for students of color. It was frustrating to hear about, but I don’t consider it reverse discrimination.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          That was done because people of color are barely working in that industry – it’s a huge problem leading to biased reporting.

    4. dorothyparker*

      Not really. Discrimination is linked to an institutional bias that’s more broad than just a company. I think that the other thing to think about is all of the implicit biases that come up during the hiring process that eliminate candidates based on perceived race rather than their resume and job history/quality of candidacy. I don’t know for sure but I’m willing to bet that some over-correction in hiring more inclusively (and it’s really important to note this is most critical across all levels including senior leadership!), might actually be righting the biases that lead to white-washed hiring practices as they currently exist in most places.

    5. knitter*

      It looks weird to you because when a privilege is being taken away, it feels like a punishment.
      Maybe think about all the qualified, non majority group candidates who have been screened out because of a weird name or “not being a culture fit”. Focusing on increasing hiring of minority groups is simply removing the privilege that went to majority groups.
      As a white person working in a field that needs to diversify (urban education), I had zero problems when a person of color was hired into a role that I had applied to. I wasn’t as qualified. And part of being qualified for that position was having experiences that could connect with our students.

      1. Anon Applicant*

        Right, I’m very conscientious of this. The company I applied to hasn’t explicitly said anything, but they’ve made it implicitly clear through their application process that they’re looking to hire someone more diverse than the sort of people currently on their team. I applaud their self-awareness and the step they’re taking towards diversity, but I’m like the others on the team. I’m definitely not saying I’m the best applicant they have (though I’m in their top 3!), but I do think my candidacy would be more appealing to them if I weren’t what I am. And all this was discovered after having invested a decent amount of time into their application process (had to go through a phone interview, answer a questionnaire, then complete a timed project all before getting an in person interview).

        1. WellRed*

          Uh, that’s an awful lot of hoops just to get an interview. Is this normal for your industry? If not, possible bullet dodged.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          How do you know where you rank with them in terms of your qualifications? Have you seen the other candidate’s resumes? Were you in their interviews? I find it interesting that you automatically assume that if you weren’t white that you’d be more appealing to the hiring team when it could just be that you are not as qualified for this particular role as you think you are regardless of race.

          1. Anon Applicant*

            Nope! Not at all assuming I am the best candidate regardless of race! I have no idea who else they are interviewing!

            I’m not ranking myself against other candidates. I’m ranking myself against what they told me they’re looking for with this position. If they tell me they are looking to hire diverse candidates, I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume my candidacy would be more appealing if I were more diverse?

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              My point is, you know nothing about who they’re interviewing (do you even know the people who work there in that particular group?), and by your own admission, they haven’t explicitly said, “We’re only hiring non-whites for this role.” Diverse could mean people from other industries and other backgrounds (e.g., if their team is made up of mostly business majors, but now they’re looking for humanities folks to add some creativity to the group) – it’s not all about race. Diversity of thought and experience is a thing.

              2. Anon Applicant*

                I thought my prior comments on this were clear, but I see now that they’re probably not! The hiring manager explicitly told me their team is made up of people from mostly X background, so that’s how I know that. Then, as I said above, made it implicitly clear that they’re looking to hire someone more diverse than the sort of people currently on their team. (I don’t want to go into the specifics of the ways the company implied this, and am conscious that everything is through my own lens and maybe they’re not trying to make any sort of implications at all, but like regular OPs writing to AAM, let’s assume this is the case.)

                Whoa there! I haven’t said anything about race! White vs. non-white happens to actually not be the sort of diversity I’m/the company is talking about!

                1. Diahann Carroll*

                  No, your comments weren’t clear and when people were posting mentioning race and you skipped right over those, the impression you gave was that you thought this was a racial thing based on the responses in this thread. I’m glad it’s not a racial thing, but you still need to understand that diverse hiring can mean many things and just because, on paper, you seem like the most obvious hire, doesn’t mean you are the best (which I’m glad your comments are starting to show you’re getting around to understanding that).

            2. Marthooh*

              It’s kind of weird that you don’t know who else is in the running but you know you’re in their top three – or was that a joke? Anyway, Alison gets lots of letters that say “I’m the perfect fit for this job, but I didn’t get hired!” (look at the “rejections” category in the menu.) There are lots of reasons you may not get a job you want. As for having to go through a long application process, well, so did everyone else who made it as far as you did!

              1. Anon Applicant*

                Not a joke. They told me during the interview it was down to me and two other candidates. I don’t think that’s atypical information for them to tell me?

                Again, not saying I’m the best for the job. (And, on the flip side of it, not sure it’s even the right move for me!) Nor am I complaining about not getting hired – I don’t know if I will be hired yet! They haven’t finished interviewing the other two candidates.

        3. Jennifer Thneed*

          Can we stop using the word “diverse” for a single person? Groups can be diverse: each individual is just themselves.

          If we MEAN “non-white” or “non-majority” or “non-christian” or “non-frat-jock-beer-guy”, let’s just say that instead of papering it over. (And when I say “we”, I do mean the white majority, of which I am one. People of color are WAY less squiggly about using specific, appropriate, terms.)

          1. Avasarala*

            Agreed. Let’s stop using “diverse” to mean “non-white.” If I see one more “[person] is more diverse than [person]”…

      3. Muriel Heslop*

        As a white woman in (semi)urban education, I feel the same way. I’ve worked hard to diversify our department and if a POC (heck, even a white male) applies, I definitely look for a way to hire them if all else is equal. Conversely, I won’t overlook a stellar white woman if she’s amazing because my kids deserve all the incredible support they can get.

      4. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        “I had zero problems when a person of color was hired into a role that I had applied to. I wasn’t as qualified.”

        How would you have felt if a) you were as qualified – equally qualified, let’s say – and b) everything else being equal, the only reason the person of color wound up being hired over you was because they were a person of color?

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          I’d be fine with that tie breaker, though bummed about not getting the job.
          1) Something has to be a tie-breaker.
          2) I will have more opportunities because I am white. I will be more likely to get interviewed / hired because I have an ethnically ‘white’ name.

          There is a *lot* of class privilege in my attitude. I’m educated enough that I can be philosophical about a job hunt – I’m going to find something that my family can live on, even if I have to take a step down so that I’m competing against less-qualified candidates.

        2. JamieS*

          This is often a hypothetical that’s proposed but I’m curious how anyone would even know that was the reason they were/weren’t hired. If someone clearly less qualified was hired over another without there being a reasonable explanation, such as the more qualified person applied to a lower level position, a case for discrimination can be more clearly made. However if the person they hired is just as qualified as another applicant it’s a stretch for the applicant who wasn’t selected to say “I wasn’t hired because I’m a member of X group and/or not a member of Y group”.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      Has it ever happened ever? Sure. Is it a thing? No. If anything, what I’ve seen, despite “affirmative action” and “diversity efforts,” it still seems to me that historically overrepresented groups still get a leg up.

      1. Ramona Q*

        Yup – the group that benefits most from affirmative action policies is actually cis white women. We aren’t a group who needs that help because of our structural privilege.

        2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          I’m genuinely curious why you think women of any color don’t need help/have privilege. Women who are white may get a pass on thing a black man may be dinged on but as a woman, she’ll be dinged for what the black male gets a pass on due to male privilege.

    7. Free Meercats*

      Hiring/not hiring someone based on their race/religion/gender is illegal. Period.

      Unfortunately, it happens. At PreviousJob we were in expansion mode – hiring 6 people into a 6 person work group, so doubling. HR told us point blank, “At least two of your hires will be women and one a POC.”

      1. Autumnheart*

        But if the existing 6 people are all white males despite having received applications from women/POC, that is also a problem. Short of firing those 6 people and starting over, the only way to improve diversity on the team is to hire people who aren’t already represented.

        A team with 12 people on it should be at least half women in order to fairly represent the population.

        1. Free Meercats*

          I agree with the “should.” Unfortunately, I’m in a field where there are few women who apply; for some reason, men are more willing to work in manholes with sewage than women.

        2. JamieS*

          Were the white males more qualified candidates than the women/POC? If so then no it isn’t a problem they were hired over the women/POC. Were the white males less qualified? If so, that is a problem.

          The issue with saying “you must hire a woman” or “you must hire a POC” is that the focus isn’t on hiring the most qualified person. It will also lead to the assumption the person that’s hired isn’t qualified which does them no favors. This is different from choosing the woman/POC over a white man when all else is essentially equal. At that point something has to be a tie-breaker and having a tie-breaker that benefits the company (diversity) isn’t something that can really be argued against.

    8. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      It’s illegal, but a lot of people in privileged groups don’t always understand the impact of lived experience or that when they look the same as an underprivileged person on paper, the underprivileged person has gone through impressive hurdles to get there. For example, I was on an interview panel for an office position. Everyone we interviewed was very qualified on paper. But the one I advocated for was a Chinese immigrant who got her bachelor’s degree later in life taking classes in English while also juggling being a parent to a small child. That’s a lot harder than someone who got to go to college when they were young and had their parents pay for everything and have no dependents and get to take classes in their native language. But privileged people don’t usually even think about that.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I guess considering family status is illegal so there is an argument that you can’t hire a parent over someone with no kids (though it’s overwhelmingly usually the other way around especially when the parent candidate is a woman). But it’s not illegal to be more impressed by someone who had to be financially responsible for themselves and could get a degree in a foreign language they learned as an adult.

        1. Cat*

          I would say it’s the other way around ONLY when the other candidate is a woman. Men actually benefit in their career from having children statistically.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            Curious — is that benefit from being married/partnered, and having children is a proxy? Or do the children give them benefit beyond that?

            1. Natalie*

              IIRC married men with children are statistically likely to benefit in their career more than married men without children. I’m not sure if the same holds true for unmarried or divorced men with children, it’s been awhile since I came across the study.

            2. Jules the 3rd*

              Googled ‘fatherhood bonus career’ (contrast to motherhood penalty) and fatherhood seems to be taken as an indicator of ‘grit’. They mostly seem to refer to the same study from Cornell that found a line about being a PTA member got more call-backs and higher pay offers for men.

              How being a father affects your success – Business Insider
              and
              First-time moms see a 30% drop in pay. For dads, there’s a bump up from cnbc

        2. Natalie*

          Family status is only protected for housing, not employment. However, a lot of discrimination by family status ends up being de facto discrimination by sex, so it’s best avoided anyway.

      2. JamieS*

        Did you quiz all the “privileged” candidates to ensure they didn’t also have impressive hurdles to go through?

      3. Avasarala*

        It kinda sounds like you hired her based on her lack of privilege though? Did her experience bring something different to your team, did she express her story particularly well, did she have values you admire? Because it kinda sounds like you hired her based on pity the way you spun that story.

    9. Spork*

      Okay: We want more candidates who are X and Y because they tend to be filtered out of hiring processes before we get to an interview stage. We are still going to hire the best candidate for the position anyway.

      Not okay: We will only hire candidates of a specific race or gender.

      Make sure you’re not misinterpreting “We value diversity, and encourage women and racial minorities to apply” as “We will only hire a woman or a racial minority.”

      1. Venus*

        I used to know a white man who complained frequently about not being employable because his field was only hiring for diversity, and he therefore had no chance.

        I couldn’t be bothered arguing with him, because I knew he wouldn’t listen, but it was pretty obvious that the field was full of young white men. So there may have been efforts to hire more POC and women, yet they were still in a minority.

        This man was unhappy because he wasn’t being hired, yet he blamed it on ‘diversity targets’. Which, may be valid, in that he wasn’t very good but a decade prior to that situation he probably would have had a much better chance at a good job. Someone once said that the competent white men are more likely to welcome diversity. It is the incompetent ones who lose out to competent women and POC who get more upset about diversity targets.

    10. Jedi Squirrel*

      Totally depends on wording.

      “We are not hiring white people for this role” = illegal

      “Our preferred candidate has experience with X community” = legal, but it also doesn’t refer to the race/religion/ethnicity of the candidate. It just increases the chances that someone of color will be more likely to apply.

      It’s important to keep this in mind, since in this forum, we tend to get very limited snapshots of what’s actually happening, and it is entirely based upon OP’s interpretation. (Unless, of course, they quote the posting word for word in its entirety.)

      (Also, and not to digress, but the “reverse” wording is highly problematic, because there are societal and structural power imbalances at play here.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        (Also, and not to digress, but the “reverse” wording is highly problematic, because there are societal and structural power imbalances at play here.)

        I peeped this as well, and the follow-up comment I responded to was problematic as well.

      2. Anon Applicant*

        Ah, thank you for pointing that out! What’s the appropriate wording I should have used?

        This is, of course, all based on my interpretation of the situation. In this case, not of the posting itself, but of the rest of the process. Nothing outright on it’s own (for example, the questionnaire had a question that was like, “We love diversity! Tell us how your diverse background would help contribute to our department.”), but coupled with some remarks from the hiring manager in person, I got the overall impression that they’d like to hire a diverse candidate.

        1. ThatGirl*

          “Diverse” can mean SO MANY things – not just people of color or religious minorities, but also veterans, the disabled, people over 50, people who are from outside the geographic area, people who come from different socioeconomic backgrounds or have unusual career paths – I’m a white lady from the midwest but I think I could find a way to talk about what in my life has set me apart. It may or may not be the kind of diversity they’re looking for, but you can still answer the question.

          I don’t know if there is a way to word “reverse” discrimination – it’s just not a thing. What you’re basically saying is that you feel uneasy about not having a leg up by being white (I’m guessing).

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            I don’t know if there is a way to word “reverse” discrimination – it’s just not a thing. What you’re basically saying is that you feel uneasy about not having a leg up by being white (I’m guessing).

            Bingo.

        2. Marny*

          It sounds like you’re conflating “diverse” with “minority race or culture”. A person can have a “diverse” background and diverse experiences without being a member of a specific minority group. They’re likely looking for candidates who haven’t kept themselves sheltered in situations where they’re surrounded by people just like them and in environments where everyone has similar backgrounds/experiences.

          1. Red Sunglasses*

            Exactly. My company traditionally only recruits from top tier schools and now they’re expanding recruiting to non toptier schools because they realize that top tier schools are only available to a very limited number of people and want to make sure they are giving people who don’t have the connections and privilege of attending them a look. It’s well known in my industry that the university on your degree is key to getting a job and if you aren’t top tier, it’s extremely hard to get into.

            The company has made it clear the requirements to be hired have not changed. As you can imagine, there are a number of people who aren’t cool with this and feel like we’re lessening our standards. What they really mean is they’re uncomfortable with having to acknowledge that they didn’t get here based on their smarts alone.

        3. Brrrrrr*

          My company uses questions like this in hiring! I think it’s quite common in non-profit and public service organizations. We use that question not because we are necessarily looking for someone who fits a protected class, but because we want to give candidates an opportunity to highlight how their lived experiences might bring a unique and valuable perspective to the team. “Diverse” in that context doesn’t necessarily mean racial/religious/ethnic minority.
          Answers that have been seen as positive in my industry in the past include “I grew up in the neighborhood where the office is located, and therefore understand the challenges faced by residents” or “I speak a language that will allow me to communicate directly and connect personally with our client base” or “I was once a client of an organization like yours and so I understand how clients may feel” or “I worked for a funder and so understand how best to apply for grants.”
          If you do not have any lived experiences that would add a particular value to the organization, perhaps you are not the best candidate. That is not necessarily because of your race/religion/origin, but because you have not developed the experiences that bring something new to the table in terms of your perspective.

          1. Jedi Squirrel*

            We use that question not because we are necessarily looking for someone who fits a protected class, but because we want to give candidates an opportunity to highlight how their lived experiences might bring a unique and valuable perspective to the team.

            Bingo!

            A lot of people who don’t fit the white middle class college educated ideal might think that they are in no way qualified, when in fact, they have qualifications based on their lived experiences. This is a wonderful framing!

        4. LemonLyman*

          I agree with ThatGirl’s comment to this post as well as the things Diahnna has posted. One comment Diahnna made is that “diversity” means many things. It doesn’t sound like this application defines this org’s interest in diversity as just being racial diversity.

          To answer your original question, “reverse discrimination” is not something that exists. It’s my experience that “whiteness” has become neutral or the norm in our American society and people of color have had to learn how to fit into that norm. It’s not possible to “discriminate” against the norm that sets up power structures. What’s sad is that otherwise well meaning white people don’t realize this. My white friends and spouse don’t notice their white privileged until it is pointed out to them.

          It sounds like you’re open to learning more and I’d gladly point you in the direction of Peggy McIntosh’s piece on White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. Giggle it. It’s a great way to bring awareness to your own white privilege and how people of color have to fit into a society where “whiteness” is seen as the norm. I’m not white but I benefit from white privileged because I’m married to a white man.

    11. Maya Elena*

      Legalities aside, it totally happens; I don’t think to the point of excluding, but definitely preferring. I’ve definitely been preferred – and told as much – for some internship opportunities in a male-dominated field because of being female. A lot of organizations these days are either under pressure or their leadership really does want to see better demographic diversity on their staffs, but don’t have enough qualified applicants of the requisite groups; so when they get them, they try to attract them; which of course comes at the expense of the majority-group applicants.

  22. dorothyparker*

    So my manager just came back from a training on how to use HR’s new review system. They were specifically told to not discuss raises or paths to promotion with their employees. This is mounting on my recent look at our 990 (we’re a nonprofit) that showed our CEO makes over $500,000 and little old me, four levels down the hierarchy, but working 50-hour weeks is making 60k (in our busy season, I’m working 6-7 days a week and more like 60 hours). I’m in the most expensive city in the country.
    Lately I’ve been trying to lowkey get people around my level to share their salaries with each other. I really really want to find a productive way to fight back against the income inequity within our company (I have a really really hard time understanding why our VPs make $200,000+ but just three levels down, I’m a middle manager at $60k. I’m working tons of hours in a client-facing role (so I take a ton of shit face to face)). Seeking a smidge of validation but also advice on ways to push back on this and demand greater equity in pay. Free snacks at staff meetings isn’t the same as squeezing out rent and mental healthcare not covered by our insurance!

    1. Pear*

      This is very, very normal. Salaries increase with hierarchy, sometimes by a lot. Trying to push back on that is going to make you look out of touch with the norms of the professional world.

      If you think your pay and benefits are low for your position based on what your peers in the industry make, or your salary isn’t increasing with COL, or you feel the hours you’re required to work are unreasonable, then those are things you can potentially discuss with your manager–and discuss, not demand. The salaries of your CEO and VP should absolutely not be part of the conversation.

      2. MissBliss*

        I’m not sure it will make you look out of touch with the norms of the professional world in the nonprofit context… Feelings of being underpaid (often grossly, and particularly in comparison to executives) is not uncommon. And in mission-based orgs, inequity often cuts to the very core of what the organization is working to solve. My last job literally had programs around poverty alleviation and creating jobs with “family sustaining” wages but the front-line workers (who, frequently, put up with significant abuse) had salaries that could barely support them. So comparing your salary to what your peers in the industry make isn’t necessarily going to help you at all– lots of people in the nonprofit world are underpaid. The only way that will change is if people push back at the inequity.

        1. dorothyparker*

          This is very much the reality of what happens where I am! My team gets the angry calls and emails and those get filtered up to leadership. Sure there is board-reporting that happens but that doesn’t negate the hours that I work and the abuse that myself and my team have faced. Obviously some of this is a larger conversation of the standards our organization sets with clients and that people can just be jerks. BUT, I do think that we should totally question the inequity of pay. Hard to stomach a CEO who has a share of a private plane and staff who have to commute far or live super cheaply to make ends meet–especially at a non-profit. From a market perspective, our CEO should be making closer to $300k based on other non profits of our size in our area. My salary is relatively close to market rate.

      3. CM*

        It’s normal, but it’s also super wrong. There should be a limit on how high the ratio between the highest and lowest paid position in a given company can be — otherwise the people at the top will just vote to reward themselves with higher and higher salaries (which is what we see happening).

    2. Enginear*

      Upper management make six figures because their job needs them to make tough decisions, say the politically correct thing at all times, and be able to steer the company in the right direction, and report directly to the big boys when questions are asked. Me personally, I wouldn’t want all that responsibility. That’s why they make the big bucks.

      1. Creed Bratton*

        See – this angers me. In so many cases (not all) the top level is paid a completely disproportionate salary with absolutely no technical knowledge. A school superintendent should have spent at least a year in the classroom. A hospital CEO should have at least a year of direct patient contact. SOME knowledge of the field you’re serving is critical, but many times a “leader” is brought in (like you said, to make scary decisions and focus on the $$ of it all). And they make all those budgetary decisions that aren’t based on the reality of what an EMT/teacher/front line cashier worker/whatever is dealing with and don’t solve their actual problems.

        1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

          THIS! “In so many cases (not all) the top level is paid a completely disproportionate salary with absolutely no technical knowledge.”

          The most recent ED I had made 6-figures and a travel allowance but had never been an ED. Her experience was 15-yrs of non-profit marketing. Our Dev Director had no fundraising or non-profit experience but made $85k… None of them had even ‘swept’ a non-profit floor and worked with clients or done anything that would be basic non-profit work.

          This new ED said, “Well I worry about the chaos and changes, too. Believe me, you’re not the only one who does.” to which I say, “You’ve created the chaos and changes! You get paid six-figures to enjoy this.” and then I turned to the Dev Director and said the same thing. They were shocked. Then I quit on the spot. They had no cognizance of their actions on the organization AND had the audacity to have asked for employees to give to the organization!

      2. J.B.*

        Yes, but that is quite a difference, especially since dorothyparker describes herself as being in middle management. I would normally expect the difference between her salary and the VPs – in a nonprofit no less – to be quite a bit smaller, especially with a very high cost of living.

      3. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        “Upper management makes six figures because their job needs them to make tough decisions” Yes, I agree that non-profits CEOs should be making commensurate salaries as those who run similar sized for-profit businesses with scope and breadth of responsibilities. I don’t begrudge Goodwill, Habitat for Humanity, Feeding America, Heifer International and similar sized global/national non-profits pay their CEO’s like a for-profit CEO. That’s A LOT of responsibility. But more often than not there non-profits/affiliates engage in the misalignment of pay: responsibilities because they don’t realize how it ‘looks’ inside and outside, as well as it pushes back on what they’re trying to do with their own clients.

        My two experiences:

        I’ve been an Ex. Director of a non-profit with 4-full time thrift store staff, a $500k thrift store, 75 and growing permanent clients with $750k in appreciable assets (i.e. Habitat for Humanity). I was responsible for home construction, client management, volunteer recruitment/retention, Board/committees, finances, fundraising, staff, and everything in-between as I couldn’t get an admin staff. $40k/year (and that was negotiated up and I really wanted the experience to be an ED). The locale was a small military town, but I was still underpaid for the responsibility.

        The last org I left ED pay: 5 staff in programs and development, no appreciable assets, $150k fund for scholarships and the big decisions are developing the politically correct relationships to keep programs in K-12 schools and corporate volunteers.
        – ED: $125k, travel pay and car allowance, 5-staff. 15 years of non-profit marketing, no ED experience
        – Dev Director: $85k, travel pay for a $500k fundraising requirement, 2 staff. No fundraising or non-profit experience
        – Program Director: $55k, 1 staff, 15 schools, and 20 companies for volunteers. Extensive prior brand experience.

        Discrepancies? Always in non-profit. We don’t go into it for pay, but we shouldn’t be living hand to mouth at the expense of our CEO being paid the ‘appropriate’ level of pay to deal with politics. And it’s worse when your boss doesn’t recognize the discrepancy and shares all their trips and extra-curricular while one of her employees struggles to make ends meet.

      5. MissDisplaced*

        I think, saying that about a for-profit public traded company is mostly true. The executives make tough decisions, work long hours (usually), travel a lot internationally, and must keep stock prices up and the company competitive and profitable.

        But OP is frustrated because this is a mission based organization with programs designed to help the poor segments of the population. There really should be a limit on wage ratios in these these types of orgs, because the donated money ought to serve the mission of the org, not the executives running it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am more alarmed by not being able to discuss raises or promotions with employees. So in other words this is a dead end job.

      I worked for a place like this. Get out. Seriously. The real issue here is not that you make 10% of what the CEO makes, the real issue is that a career path or raises can no longer be discussed at this company. Why on this green earth would anyone stay there. What a trap.

      1. CM*

        I second the advice to get out.

        FWIW, the shady nonprofit/scam I used to work for had a habit of promoting people into “management” as a way to separate them from the staff and low-key stop them from trying to unionize, but didn’t always give them actual management responsibilities. I don’t know what your situation is, but maybe double-triple-check whether you’re actually considered a manager for legal purposes.

  23. ProdMgr*

    So you probably need to be really clear with your boss that you don’t want to do this work anymore. Being clear on what you want to do instead and why it’ll be valuable to the company will help – basically, write the pitch that your manager will have to take to their manager to sell the idea.

    Secondly, even if you wanted to keep doing llama styling, they’ve got a big risk right now. If you became unavailable suddenly, they’d be stuck. They should be looking at how to either train people internally, hire people who can already do the work, or find external resources they can use. If training hasn’t worked in the past, it’s important to understand why (were they the wrong people? did they not get enough time?) and then come up with a better plan. You continuing to be available forever is not a good bet for them. Part of making this pitch is being able to show how llama styling impacts the business – how big are the accounts that need this? what would happen if it wasn’t available? Ultimately, if you can make a business case for building up this competency, it’ll be easier to make it happen.

  24. Running With Scissors*

    I’ve been waiting for this.

    So, I have a coworker who is on the same team. They’ve been here the longest and they come off as bossy.

    Yesterday, they budded in to a conversation and using tone told me about how everything I said was wrong and “you need to use your judgment more”. Another team member heard what they said and confronted them on it and they believed they were right and if I didn’t like it they wouldn’t say anything again. I asked a manager for guidance and got a very different answer from bossy coworker.

    This is not the first time they have done this, and I find it to be off putting. I am not inclined to approach them when I have questions.

    I’m thinking of saying this at my next 1:1 with my manager: “I appreciate the feedback and understand they are trying to help, but I don’t appreciate the comments and tone that is used. If there is something that I need to be doing differently, please let me know”

    1. BlindChina*

      Any Chance you could say this to bossy co-worker first? Some times people really don’t realize how bossy they come off, and just asking them to stop fixes the issue. But if they are nasty as well as bossy don’t try this lol. I’m sorry you have to deal with this, I’m sure it is very annoying.

      1. valentine*

        and if I didn’t like it they wouldn’t say anything again.
        They gave you an opening! “You said you wouldn’t say anything again and I’m accepting that offer.”

    2. Indy Dem*

      I would have just replied with a flat toned “Thank you for the input”. Before going to your manager, are you able to have a conversation with your co-worker about this? That you appreciate the feedback, but that you felt it could have been more constructive in nature (I wouldn’t mention tone with them). If this doesn’t work, then bring it up in the 1:1, mentioning that you attempted to work it out with said co-worker first.

      1. China Beech*

        Yes, sometimes you have to pt your adult pants on and talk to the coworker first. If you go straight to the boss, you appear like a back-biting viper, and trust that that will NOT get the reaction from your coworker that you want. It will make the situation worse. And maybe ask yourself if maybe YOU are contributing by trying to take on too much already or sounding like a know it all.

        1. Mellow*

          I don’t understand why you’re contemplating the OP as a possible know-it-all. What in the OP’s comment indicates that possibility?

    3. designbot*

      God I’d be tempted to say “You mentioned me needing to use my judgement more, but I’m curious what judgement you were making when you decided to tell a colleague that everything they were saying is wrong and offered an assessment of my judgement. Because I’m having a hard time seeing how that could be coming from a positive, collaborative place.”

  25. Construction Safety*

    So, apparently our projects don’t write formal purchase orders or keep a PO log (or sumsuch). They just give the vendor the project number & sort it all out in the end.

    I guess a vendor just submitted an invoice for $15k for stuff that was delivered 8 months ago. To a T&M project. Which has closed the books & “final billed” the client months ago.

    But, that’s the way we’ve always done it so it obviously that’s the best way to do it and doesn’t need to be done any differently.

    1. JustaTech*

      OMG. So who’s going to eat that $15k? Is anyone going to learn from that?

      I mean, I try to stay as far away from all the purchasing stuff as physically possible (I’ve watched it drive my coworkers to tears), but, like, it’s there for a reason.

    3. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      Aggghh! That is very frustrating and I’m sorry you have to deal with it.

      I work for a small residential construction company and we’ve had this happen a couple of times. Once with an HVAC contractor who billed several months after we closed the project. I think it was somewhere in the $10k range for a change order, so it wasn’t a part of the original proposal. We had even sent out notices for an open invoices weeks prior to closing those bank accounts, but they still missed it! I don’t know who the heck was doing their bookkeeping, but they sure screwed up.

      They argued and argued with us, told us how much it was going to affect their small business to not get the money, all that. I felt for them, but we can’t retroactively bill the client! We mostly do Cost Plus projects, so all the money goes through individual bank accounts specific to the project. We don’t fund those bank accounts, the client/homeowner does. The only way to recoup the money is for us to pay the invoice and then go back to the client for reimbursement. We would take a big risk and potentially have to eat the cost!

      I do material purchasing and logistics for our company (among other things). I don’t have a formal purchase order system per se, but I do have a system for keeping track of materials ordered, shipped, received, checked, and then billed. So far the only invoices that have slipped through were for turnkey materials and labor, which the site supervisors are responsible for. Statistically something is bound to slip through at some point :/

  26. Mary Dempster*

    This isn’t really a question, but wanted to thank Allison and all the comments here – I read and re-read them yesterday re: salary negotiation (something I’ve literally never done, or had the opportunity to do), was offered a promotion, said “Any chance you can do $+$10k?” and in less than an hour they met me in the middle at an additional $5k, giving me a 45% raise. 45%!!!

    Thanks to Allison and everyone for the confidence.

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      WOO HOOO! Have a great weekend reveling in your awesomeness! So great to hear that your company wants to keep you, too!

  27. Elenna*

    Is my reporting structure super weird?

    Basically my official manager on my contract, company files, etc is Fergus, but Wakeen manages me day-to-day, assigns tasks, etc. I haven’t done a performance review at this company yet but I assume it would be a collaborative effort between them. If they gave me conflicting tasks I’d probably just ask one or both of them which one I should prioritize.

    I didn’t think it was that weird, since I’ve had a similar reporting structure before. That was a co-op job and this is full-time (entry level), but they were both actuarial analyst jobs in large insurance companies. (Basically we’re the people who figure out how much insurance should cost, how much to invest, etc.) Maybe it’s an insurance thing? IDK. But a lot of comments on yesterday’s letter (the one about a coworker trying to manage) seemed to suggest that being managed by someone who’s not your official manager is pretty unusual. (For the record, I was clearly told who to report to when I started, and LW’s coworker in yesterday’s letter is indeed bananas.)

    Anyone else have similar experiences?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I report to like five different people depending on what aspect of my job we’re talking about. As long as everyone’s clear, I don’t think it’s that weird.

      1. Indy Dem*

        Lol, Amber Rose, your response made me think of the movie Office Space.

        One of our departments has first level employees, team leads, and managers. The team leads have 1:1s, discuss and support case loads and tasks, and are the first stop on bringing up issues to management (it sounds like more of a sounding board), but the managers are the ones doing reviews (with lead input) and other management functions. I don’t think your situation is that weird. But it can’t hurt to have a conversation with either of them about the review process, since you are new.

    2. OperaArt*

      Very common where I work. But it’s different from yesterday’s letter because the chains of command are clearly stated. I have one person who is my boss for the admin side (raises, performance reviews, etc.), and one boss for each project I’m working on. There have been times when I’ve had 5 bosses at once, but I always knew who was responsible for what.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t think this sounds weird at all. My associate editor and I (one step up) both report to the editor, but I assign associate editor things (so does editor, but me more so). But when it’s time for reviews and what not, the AE would sit down with the editor, not me.

    4. Diahann Carroll*

      The comments on that letter weren’t suggesting dotted line management is unusual (which is what you’re reporting structure is) – what we were all saying was unusual was the coworker’s idea that she could start managing the letter writer and discussing the letter writer’s career goals without a) clearing this with OP’s actual manager or b) communicating with the OP that this directive came from OP’s boss.

      Dotted line management is very common across many industries, especially in project-based work. It’s not just an insurance thing (and for the record, I was an insurance adjuster for four years and never had a dotted line management reporting structure, so yours may just be related to your job function).

    5. designbot*

      It’s fairly normal in my field (design) to have one formal manager, and a day to day experience that is a bit separated from them. Sometimes that is formalized with things like project managers (who aren’t officially managing you as people, they’re managing projects, which necessitates the management of people…) or senior designers vs junior designers, and sometimes it’s just understood.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Dotted line reporting structures: Yes they’re common, yes they can cause problems, and yes you’ll develop some usable project management skills by learning to navigate them efficiently.

    7. Chronic Overthinker*

      Technically speaking everyone in the office is my superior. Only one of them is my direct report. 90 percent of my work is with support staff/everyone else in the office and not my direct report. Things get a little confusing at times, especially feedback, but I feel like I get things done in a timely manner and am enthusiastic about taking on anything anyone gives me.

  28. Amber Rose*

    I feel weird about how my coworker’s impending mat leave is being handled, but also I have never worked anywhere where someone took mat leave, so I’m not sure if this is normal. Reality check please?

    So basically, her (call her Jane) job covers three main categories. I’ll be taking over one, and the other two will be given to two other coworkers who are doing similar work. Unlike those two, I have no background or experience in the work I’m taking on, so I’ll need more training and stuff. Anyways, as we had a mini-meeting about this with Jane’s supervisor but without Jane, my boss basically said that since Jane is leaving in March or so, she intends for all the work to start being given to us now. With the plan being that Jane will steadily have less to do until, for the last two or three weeks, she’ll be doing basically nothing at all except answering questions.

    That feels like a long time to leave someone with zero work. And when Jane’s supervisor kind of gently pushed back about that my boss just said, “there’s stuff to do if she looks for it.”

    I dunno, it feels like they’re trying to make Jane redundant, and since literally nobody has told Jane any of this, I’m worried about backlash next week when that third of her work starts getting funneled to me to learn.

    1. Hmmm*

      As a person who went on mat leave in 2019, I didn’t think any of this was too weird until you said that Jane doesn’t know about this. It’s not uncommon for a person to go into labor 2-3 weeks early, so it’s good that they have a plan for everything to be covered by that point… but it’s hard for me to imagine a situation where that whole conversation didn’t involve the person who will be out.

      3. Parenthetically*

        Identical thoughts. It actually sounds pretty smart, but… Jane doesn’t know about it? That’s BONKERS.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Honestly, it doesn’t sound crazy to me. Early transition is prudent in case of later medical difficulties or early delivery. March will be here before we know it.

      Also, Jane is still an experienced member of staff, and an adult. If she’s too quiet one day, she can pick something else up.

        2. cmcinnyc*

          OK that means something else is going on, and it’s probably something you are not going to be told about. Unless your company has *very* generous leave a March exit for a June delivery is weird.

          1. Amber Rose*

            It’s got nothing to do with my company. By law, we get either 12 or 18 months and we can take it whenever in the process as long as we give notice. It’s pretty normal for people to decide they want some time to themselves before the baby shows.

        3. serenity*

          This is so odd and not how I’ve ever witnessed mat leave be handled.

          Almost a full six months before she’s due, her work is being siphoned off to other people? And she’s unaware of this? And her mat leave starts a full 3 months before she’s due? None of this makes sense to me.

    3. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

      I had never covered someone’s mat leave until my last non-profit job. I assumed a special fundraising event that I had never done before so my coworker and I, along with our boss, worked closely together to make sure I knew what was going on. There was an established last date for my coworker to leave, but it was pushed up due to her stress level and by that time she had already moved everything to me and was on a glide path of easier tasks.

      So I kinda feel it’s weird that Jane isn’t part of the conversations and process to move responsibilities to you all. Are Jane’s supervisor and your boss on the same level or is one subordinate to the other? I can’t tell from the “And when Jane’s supervisor kind of gently pushed back about that my boss just said, ” statement.

      Maybe your boss has been pregnant and understands the need to earlier, rather than later, move tasks over to you all because babies work on their own timeline. What if Jane goes into early labor or bed rest and you’re all still ‘weaning’ her off her tasks?

      You shouldn’t be worried about a backlash as you didn’t make these plans. You’re following your boss and her boss. If Jane doesn’t like how this is going, despite being kept in the dark about this (and she needs to maange that with her boss), you aren’t responsible for her response. Take it up with your boss and see how things could be managed better. It’s too bad they don’t include her because they’re setting everyone up for an annoying time.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Jane’s supervisor reports to my boss. I suppose I now also report to Jane’s supervisor, but since my role is eclectic, I report to many people for a variety of things. My boss is sort of my main reporting line for most day to day stuff.

    4. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      Seems pretty normal to me. The 2-3 week taper is in line with the 37-40-week window at which the majority of people have their babies (due dates are calculated to the 40th week). The big boss is trying to get the coverage in place before your coworker hits the 37-week mark. And she’s trying to ramp up to it at a reasonable pace (i.e. starting now) so that you’ll have time to adjust, ask questions, etc. It’s how I’d hope my employer would handle it. Might be worth reframing a bit to yourself? Instead of “now I have more work to do” how about “now I’m adding a skillset and possibly a line for my resume”?

      1. Amber Rose*

        I should have added. She won’t hit that mark until June though. She’s just going on mat leave really early so she has some time off.

        I don’t care about my work load. I’m down for whatever. I just worry that Jane won’t react well.

        1. Bex*

          I could be reaching here, but I’m wondering if Jane has a higher-risk pregnancy and your boss thinks there might be a chance that she’s out even earlier than expected. She might be trying to quietly cover all the bases without adding extra stress/pressure on Jane.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      What’s more likely happening is a plan to make sure Jane’s replacements are fully up and running before she leaves. Full term on a healthy pregnancy is 38 weeks. Late is 42 weeks. Due date is 40 weeks–splitting the difference. So if Jane’s due date is March 1, the company is smart to be ready to lose her on February 15. She’ll also lose time to last doc appointments and sonograms, which generally happen during business hours. It’s not like a vacation where you know exactly when you’re leaving.

        1. WellRed*

          With this information, I suspect the company is either not invested in her seriously as an employee any longer and/or they suspect she won’t be back by choice.

            1. Safetykats*

              The thing is, if Jane is taking early leave for a high risk situation, or has expressed some doubts about whether she will return after her leave, it’s legally none of your business, and would be hugely inappropriate for your supervisor to share that with you. It’s also inappropriate for you to be fishing for information – whether from Jane directly or from others – and could land you in a tough situation, especially if there is some kind of confidential health issue.

              You could certainly ask what’s “ normal” for maternity leave, but my experience is that it varies a lot. FYI – it’s also my experience as a manager that even when an emplouee’s job is protected, it’s not uncommon for management and HR to assess the likelihood of an employee returning from leave. It’s usually possible to figure out who is almost certainly going to return and who is almost certainly not going to do so – the same way it’s usually possible to figure out when someone is looking for other employment. And if you strongly suspect someone won’t return, that can affect how you backfill their position. (Although I think if your management strongly suspected Jane wasn’t returning, they would be looking at a temp or even a new hire – who would be understood to be moving on to something different on Jane’s return – rather than transferring duties to existing personnel.)

    6. Indy Dem*

      The plan sounds normal. Jane not being aware of yet when everyone else involved it is? No, that’s not normal. If it was me, I’d drop a hint to her about the plan. As non nonchalantly as possible I’d say – do you have any particular request as to when I check with you during these 2-3 weeks.

    7. LKW*

      This actually sounds like a really good approach. Schedule time with her every 1-2 days to review what you’ve done that you weren’t sure about and ask her questions on the stuff you got stuck on. Since you need more training – this is a great way for you to really learn before she’s out. Shadowing someone only gets you so far.

    8. Sheffy4*

      I think generally that’s a pretty smart plan to have everything 100% handed off at least 2 weeks before the planned leave. In my experience it can be common for maternity leave to start early than expected (baby comes early, or medical issues or extreme discomfort in the last few weeks that prompts early leave). I’ve taken maternity leave twice, and I made sure that people taking over my tasks were pretty much doing those tasks comfortably by themselves several weeks before my leave was scheduled to begin. But that didn’t mean I had “nothing to do,” there was still daily requests and daily maintenance of processes that I worked on until my leave started.

    9. Jennifer Thneed*

      Can you tell us how you know that Jane doesn’t know about this plan? (and if that’s true, do you feel comfortable cluing her in?)

      1. Amber Rose*

        It came up during the meeting. Supervisor asked Boss if she’d told Jane about this plan yet, and she said no, that would be his job. Then when she asked him yesterday if he’d said anything, he hadn’t yet. So neither of them has said anything.

        I did quietly let her know that the plan was for me to help out with that set of tasks and that she’d be seeing me in meetings and stuff. But I don’t think anyone has told her the exact timeline and plan for how things are gonna be yet.

    10. Joie*

      As someone who has covered many a mat leave, this is so so normal. You won’t be taking it on 100% starting now, but the reality is 3 months isn’t a lot of time to learn a whole new function completely independently including all the “what if’s” that come up. It gives you time to adjust your workload to manage this without feeling overwhelmed, and training often makes the tasks take 2 – 3 times longer then when you know how to do it.

      The last 2-3 weeks of ‘available for questions’ is often because babies come when babies come. Your due date is two weeks either way, there’s always a chance of baby coming much earlier and complications that come along with pregnancy. I have no kids, but I’ve covered a lot of mat leaves and worked with a lot people who went on mat leave – of the 30 people I’d say about 25% made it to their set leave date. The rest were out anywhere from months to days earlier then anticipated as baby came early/something happened that required them to be on bed rest, or they felt comfortable with the level of knowledge their replacement had and were happy to take a week or two to get some rest before baby.

      It’s just better to prepare for Jane to leave early and have her stay to March rather to bank on March and baby makes an appearance in February.

      (I am in Canada where you get a year maternity leave, this may be not relevant if the leave isn’t as long)

      1. Joie*

        should have refreshed in the middle but seeing Jane is actually due two months past her leave date makes me think she either has a high risk pregnancy or has indicated there’s a chance she’s not going to want to return and your boss is just covering the bases.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve had times where I covered A, B, and C — but D & E were put on the back burner. There may be backlog that you don’t know about.
      Another thought is that boss is trying to find out if you & the other co-workers are able to keep up with A, B, and C without having to put your own jobs on the back burner : if you three are all swamped, boss may go further up the food chain to get authorization for a temp to cover leave.

    12. Massive Dynamic*

      That’s actually a really good plan – Jane can work more and more on long-term projects instead, so by the time she’s in labor, there’s no hard impact on your daily/weekly work.

      But also, march mat leave for a june due date is not common, and there could be some medical stuff that you’re not privy too that’ll come into play for Jane + baby in the spring.

      1. Not in US*

        When I was pregnant with twins, my boss and her husband apparently had a bet on when I would be ordered off – I think I made it to 27 weeks. So it could be that there are medical things going on as some other have said. Also, given the workplace protections in Canada (Canadian here) they probably aren’t trying to push her out of the job but I do get feeling weird about her not being involved in the meeting and with the plan. That could be a really bad thing – or there could be circumstances that make this ok to Jane, it’s hard to know for sure but it is unusual. I think the fact that you’ve told Jane you’ll be taking over a task is good. That at least starts the conversation.

  29. Lygeia*

    Anyone have advice on dealing with a boss that is driving you crazy? I’m actively job hunting, but that process takes time. I’m currently struggling with not losing my cool. My boss has a “I am always right” mentality and often will give conflicting instructions. For example, she will tell me that I need to get approval for large expenses (part of my job is things like ordering equipment for the company, updating our technology, etc.) but then when I go to her the next week to get something approved, she will get annoyed that I’m “bothering” her with something that is my responsibility. There are several other issues like this, and I just am having trouble not snapping. So far I’ve swallowed any emotional responses, but if I try to ask for clarification on things like this (no matter how calm my tone), she gets even more annoyed. The only response that doesn’t draw her wrath is to just say “ok” and do whatever she said in the moment this time and hope she doesn’t change her mind tomorrow and get mad at me for it.

    1. Kramerica Industries*

      Ugh, yes. My only advice is that after you talk to her, send an email after when possible to limit the conflicting instructions. I only do this for major things though (like approvals), otherwise I do feel like it’s fanning the flames to be “bothering” my manager.

      1. StellaBella*

        Ding ding ding, this ^^^. Getting conflicting or otherwise different information in two different conversations requires an email follow-up for sure. Something like, “when we spoke on Thursday you mentioned that I needed to do XYZ for this task. I therefore followed up with you on this task today, as we discussed, and now you are saying I should be doing ABC instead/differently. In order to streamline this, can you please clarify in email how you wish for me to handle this? This way moving forward things can be more efficient.”

    2. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      When I have worked with bosses or coworkers like this, I give a short explanation in my email about why I am “bothering them”.

      “Dear Boss, Since the total is over $10k, can you approve The February teapot spout order?”

      “Dear Grandboss, Since Boss is on a flight and the client wants this by 11AM, can you please sign the attached contract?”

    3. san junipero*

      Ugh, I have no advice, just commiseration. My boss is awesome, but Grandboss has been stressing me out so much that I literally cried after an email on Monday (in which he contradicted himself/gave me new instructions for the 34872394739428th time, while also passive-aggressively hinting that he’s sick of me asking questions about the totally unrealistic and possibly impossible project I’m working on).

      Actually, one piece of advice: I finally broke down after that and went to my boss for help, and she gave me some guidance but also offered to have a chat with him. Is there anyone you can go to, if only to say, “Boss often gives me conflicting instructions and I’m having trouble knowing which one to follow?”

    4. Emilitron*

      So frustrating, sorry to hear it! Can also try emails of “Boss, just to confirm – is this (see attached) the type of purchase that you said you’d like me to get approval for? If so, please sign.”

    5. CM*

      Accept that she’s going to be mad at you no matter what you do, and understand that her being mad doesn’t mean you did anything wrong. Once you’ve done that, focus on what you need to get out of the interaction, and then try to get it in the fastest least-hassle way possible (for your benefit, not hers).

      Once you start to expect that she’s going to get mad for dumb reasons, and it doesn’t surprise you anymore, it becomes a little bit less frustrating and hurtful. Your brain just kicks on and says, “Oh, she’s doing the thing I knew she would do. Five points to me.”

  30. Internal position*

    My husband has been in his current job for about a year and is absolutely miserable. He is currently looking for a new job, and as part of that search applied for a position at his current company but in a completely different division. He’s been told that he’ll have to notify his current manager that he’s applied for the position, if the hiring manager decides to proceed with him as a candidate. The thing is, part of the reason he is so miserable is that his manager is not very good, can be defensive and is not particular supportive of him. He’s never tried doing an internal transfer before in any of his other jobs, so is not quite sure how to best approach this conversation. It doesn’t help that he’s really not sure how she is going to react. Any advice?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…it sounds like BadBoss would respond well to some ego-stroking (e.g. “I’ve really valued all the experience/mentoring/whatever I’ve had here and I’d like to take that into this new role within the company”). Make the transfer about BadBoss, in a positive way.

      Maybe not though.

    2. Holy Moley*

      So I got turned down for an internal position because I hated my current manager and didn’t tell her I had applied. So he does need to tell him. I would just phrase it in a way that makes it sound like its solely for professional development. Who knows, manager might want him gone away and could be very supportive.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I would just phrase it in a way that makes it sound like its solely for professional development.

        This is the approach he needs to take. He shouldn’t make this about the boss at all (and the comment above saying he should probably throw in some praise for boss during the discussion – even if it’s not true – will probably help soothe boss’s ego).

  31. Lalalala*

    How does one quit and work out their last few weeks in the most graceful possible way? My company is not right for me and I have reason to expect I’ll get an offer elsewhere in the next few weeks, but I adore my boss and really am terrified at the prospect of letting her down. My leaving will basically double her already-immense workload and I really want to be as helpful as humanly possible before I leave, if only to thank her for being a wonderful boss.

    Already planning to organize and document everything, and will try to offer 3 weeks notice instead of 2. Will also write a thank you note. Anything else?

    1. Lalalala*

      I’ve only been here 16 months, so I feel especially bad about potentially cutting out at this stage.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      If you actually double her workload, that’s not your fault, but senior management’s. If she’s a good manager/coworker, she won’t blame you even inside her head.

      Fingers crossed you will soon be able to give that notice.

    3. Minocho*

      I had a coworker leave recently for a new job. His leaving has greatly increased my workload and the pressure on me, but the only “negative” emotion I felt was sadness that I wouldn’t be working with him anymore. I understood why he made the decision he made, and was happy he found something that worked better for him and his family. It sounds like your boss is good people – which means they may be sorry to see you leave, but they will happy to see you go someplace you’re eager to go.

      Good luck!

    5. Diahann Carroll*

      Nope – what you’re planning is good enough. As the comment above me said, this is business, it’s not personal.

    6. Marthooh*

      Good documentation + 2 weeks notice is the professional way to do it. When you do give notice, ask your boss if there’s a way to make the transition easier – she’ll know better than we do.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Only thing I’ll add is to organize your files when you do the documentation –both computer and hardcopy filed where they’re expected, with the boss’s preferred naming convention followed.
        you’ve been there 16 months, it’s all good.

  32. Anax*

    We’re still in the “hurry” part of my “hurry up and wait” job, and ugh, I’m beat – not working overtime, so I’m lucky, but managing this many tasks at once has my brain a little scrambled.

    I really wish we got project requirements with enough lead time to work on them in a more leisurely manner!

  33. Beyond Burn Out*

    I am beyond the point of burnout at my current job and don’t know what to do.

    I’ve worked 2.5 days since taking 2 weeks off for the holidays and have cried at least 4 times.

    I’m pretty isolated at my current job. Essentially have four bosses (and because I’m grant funded I do have to report to all of them- though some don’t even work at my institution), and despite discussing my burnout with them for the past several months, my workload hasn’t lightened- it’s just increased. I’ve had a rough couple of months (involving two major injuries that most people would have taken a week off for and a major death in my family, and I took .5 days off, excluding my because of deadlines). Despite talking will all bosses at least 3 times using things I’ve read on AAM. I’m still getting about 100 hours of work assigned to me weekly.
    I’ve tried delegating- but the people I’ve delegated to have done maybe 2% of what I’ve delegated. They all work externally so I don’t really have any power to make them do what I’m asking. I’ve told people “No”, but they go to my grand bosses who end up vetoing my “no.” So I’m just stuck missing deadlines and drowning.

    I’ve been interviewing elsewhere and had a somewhat promising interview this week, but I’m even exhausted from looking for a new job. If this doesn’t pan out I don’t know what I’ll do.

    Any suggestions for how to handle this really tough period without sobbing every single day?

      1. Beyond Burn Out*

        Thank you Alison!

        I did try that, but I may not be pushing hard enough on the stick with it period. I tried it back in September, and then in December on a different project. It’s worked for about a week and then I get and email telling me to stop doing Y immediately and do Z because that’s the new priority. I try to explain that if I switch to Z even though Y is 20% done, that means that Y may have to be re-done later, or that Y may not get done ever, but they switch my priorities to Z. The next week they’re back on Y and I repeat the process.

        Maybe I’ll work on language to address the specific pattern of changing the already set priorities constantly, as writing this out seems to have identified that as another problem source.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The key is to be really vigilant about “ok, that means I will stop work on Y for the foreseeable future” and generally just be super firm about announcing what you can/cannot do in 40 hours a week (or whatever) and sticking to it.

          That’s going to make your work in some ways less satisfying — it will get you some time back and lower your stress, but it sucks a lot of joy out of work to be constantly switching from one thing to another and never finishing things or giving them the attention they deserve. But having the rest of your hours/life back will be much more bearable than what’s happening now!

          But you’ve got to really stick to it. Otherwise you’re enabling this terrible set-up by giving in and working too many hours/taking on too much stress, because you’re conscientious. If you give in and get everything done (or try to), you’re taking on all the suffering yourself — and your company doesn’t *feel* the problem. Only you do. You’re metaphorically shouting, “Look at this! It’s a terrible problem!” — but then you keep accommodating it. Because you’re conscientious (believe me, I know what this is like). So from their (misguided) perspective, it doesn’t feel like a particularly pressing problem because stuff is still getting done. It’s working fine (or fine enough) for them!

          So you’ve got to be vigilant about moving that burden off yourself and just working a reasonable number of hours. How you spend those hours is up to them — but you get to have boundaries about how many hours there will be. But to do that requires some emotional disconnection from the work — I suspect right now you’re deeply invested in keeping everything functioning smoothly, and to pull this off, you’ve got to feel less invested. It helps to realize that it doesn’t make sense for you to be more invested than they are. You’re just the person they hired to help — not the person they hired to take on 100% emotional responsibility for everything (if you were that person, you’d own the company and be getting paid a lot more).

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Also, this totally seems like it could be its own post because so many people struggle with this (which would be great because I have to write Monday’s posts today anyway…). Any objection to me turning our exchange here into one?

            1. Creed Bratton*

              PLEASE do so. As a burned out HS teacher I often read the comment section with a tiny bit of jealousy, cause that’s just not the way it works here. But I’ve seen a shift (maybe more of an awareness?) lately in education/social work that these fields will be collapsing in on themselves unless we start to push back on the more ridiculous demands. But that emotional disconnect is hard!

            2. Beyond Burn Out*

              This is so incredibly helpful!

              Yes, you absolutely have my permission to turn our exchange here into a post!

            3. Seeking Second Childhood*

              I’d also like to read this. As I mention in a comment earlier, my group is currently without a supervisor and due to a re-org are now without a manager who can take an active role. Priorities supporting multiple departments & divisions could get ugly.

        2. Althea*

          I had a job with an “everything’s a priority” manager AND a “priority shift every 2 minutes” manager. The pay was not good, but I liked the mission and a solid portion of the work. I ended up doing some of the crazy demands when it seemed important to the managers, but a large portion of the time I just did what I thought was the real priority and satisficed on other things (or gambled that they would change their mind by the time they needed something, and never did it at all). It was risky, but I had resolved that I didn’t care if they fired me – if they were going to be bad at their jobs and affect the mission so badly, I’d do what I could to salvage the most important things.

          It worked pretty well for me, to be honest. “Everything is a priority” manager was often impressed that I’d kept the (actually) important things going, and when the newfangled ideas inevitably failed for lack of investment, I actually looked quite good. The priority-shifting manager often forgot about or never needed the new-fangled thing anyway. Sometimes I would misjudge and they would demand something I hadn’t worked on, and I’d just fall back to describing that with X, Y, Z on my plate, I couldn’t get to it. With a manager that tells me she wants it all done and refuses to pick, it’s sort of hard for her to come back and tell me that I chose wrong!

          You’d have to evaluate the risk for yourself, but it’s a strategy you could try. Sounds like you are tapped out anyway, so perhaps the risk is worth it.

          1. Beyond Burn Out*

            Hmm, interesting- that’s a good strategy and at this point I’m so exhausted that it may be the risk I take. Thank you for your input!

    2. Lana Kane*

      It helps me a lot to lay out a plan. You’re already interviewing, which I know is another tiring, sometimes demoralizing thing, but at least you are moving in the right direction.

      Take a look at your finances and see if you can afford to quit. If not now, can you make a budget and aim for quitting when you reach the amount of savings you think will be enough?

      Having an exit plan helps me quite a bit. I feel like there’s hope, and that I’m actively working on the problem.

      Also, have you tried talking to your bosses (or the most senior one, if there is one) and explaining what you can and can’t accomplish? And asking for their help in delegating? With 4 bosses it’s incredibly likely that each one only knows about part of what you’re doing. My guess is that they likely don’t communicate much about the projects they are individually assigning you.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        That was going to be my advice as well – figure out what you need to have banked in order to quit without having another position lined up. As you said, having that plan or “light at the end of the tunnel” can make all the difference in the world.

        The other thing I would say it that you need to emotionally check out as WWP says below – you are paid for 40 hours and that is what you will work. No more. The only thing they can do is fire you at which point you apply for unemployment. Document the workload and your attempts to get it adjusted to a normal level if they try to fight it as well as the emails you mentioned above about changing projects week to week.

      2. Beyond Burn Out*

        I’m not at the point I can afford to quit (recent injuries led to some medical bills that depleted my savings), but I haven’t actually though about what I would need to survive without this, and that’s an incredible idea!

    3. Working with professionals*

      I’m so sorry for what you are going through! I had a similar experience at my work and using scripts I saw here, I was able to get things sorted. First thing I did is stop letting the inability to meet all these insane deadlines make me feel like a failure. Objectively, no human being can do all the things they are asking you to do, so let go of those feelings, that will take a load off your back. If possible, set a meeting with your four bosses and the grandboss, point out clearly and in writing all the to do items and deadlines you have. If possible, have a suggested triage plan – you expect to be able to complete XYZ by their deadlines, but ABCDEFGH and the new “emergency” Q will need to be delayed. Remember to use a neutral tone of voice and the “of course you all agree that my working six days a week, 70 hours each week is not sustainable” attitude. Then double check that your priorities are in line with grandboss. Also take time to rest, to grieve, to recharge without guilt. Return pain to sender is many times the only way to get them to realize the workload is large enough for more than one person and, hopefully, push them to get an additional position approved. Go home on time, unplug the phone, when you get told by grandboss you have to do some project there is no time for, explicitly, and in writing, ask which of your current projects he wants you to drop while you do that. Make it clear that the time pie has limited pieces. Good luck!

      1. Beyond Burn Out*

        Thank you for these strategies! As other people have mentioned I am incredibly emotionally invested in this work and take every missed deadline as a sign of a personal failing. I need to do some clear personal boundary setting for myself, and you’ve given me some great ideas on how to do that.

    4. LKW*

      Since you have four bosses – are they aware of all that you are doing? When I was in a similar situation I’d respond to everyone with a note that essentially said

      You’ve requested task A be prioritized. However, Person B has requested their task be prioritized. Additionally, I have tasks from Person C and D that must be complete by date. Inserting Task A will impact delivery of Person C and D’s tasks. Please coordinate and determine the priority of your tasks and communicate to me by end of day today. In the meantime, as I’ve started task B, this will be my focus unless I hear from the four of you.

      1. Beyond Burn Out*

        We’ve had one or two times when I’ve had them all on the phone to explain and they’ve tried to work together to create a plan, but again, the sticking to it was not something that worked out well.

        This got me thinking of starting a shared one drive document that contains each task, the time I estimate it will take me to complete it, which boss asked for it, and where it is on my priority list- maybe the visual of it that could help them get a grasp of what’s going on.

        1. LKW*

          What I also found that was that people were more willing to let the actual priorities go first. So a compliance issue was prioritized over an employee dispute (this was corporate legal stuff). Unless two or more people have large egos, most times people will work together. At best the group will self police. At worst – you demand they figure it out and until they do, you keep with a first come first serve approach.

    5. Marthooh*

      In addition to the other good advice here, take a little time to document who assigns what tasks to you. Especially since you have too many bosses! Use email like : “Per our discussion on Thursday, I will be focusing next week on Z rather than X & Y tasks.”

  34. Not Sticking It Out?*

    I’m in a situation where I received a sign on bonus that needs to be paid back if you leave in under a year. I never in a million years thought I’d consider not sticking out the year but….something might be falling into my lap just a few months shy of it.

    I have no doubt they will remember and come for it, but does anyone know if it’s really frowned upon/burning a bridge if you pay it back? Has anyone else made the decision? Interested in other s’mores experiences with this scenario.

    1. Minocho*

      If you pay it back, it will only be a problem for places that aren’t very professional. If it’s a small company and the owner is going personally resent you leaving on your own terms, that might last beyond paying the money back – but if they’re at all professional it shouldn’t be an issue.

      It’s worth being up front with the new opportunity people as well. “Accepting this offer is going to have X cost me on Y timeline”. Maybe a delay in hiring or a bonus to cover your costs is possible.

      The only thing I will say is DO NOT make this decision with the assumption that the payback will be forgiven or forgotten. It’s fine to push for / hope for that, but assume you will owe the money – that way you’re not placing yourself in a bad situation. I know someone who did that, and still resents the company for holding them to their agreement. Don’t be that person.

    2. Indy Dem*

      I’ve wondered about this – does the responsibility for collecting this fall on the company. They would be the ones to have to say “you need to pay X back of signing bonus by Y date”, correct? Because if I left, I would be hesitant to bring in up, hoping that they would over look that little bit of data.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      I have heard stories of successful negotiations that your new company would cover the sign on bonus repayment as part of the offer. So if you would be interested in that, it probably doesn’t hurt to ask

    4. Jennifer Thneed*

      1. If you can without putting yourself in a pickle, find out if you’d have to pay back the total amount, or a pro-rated amount based on where you are in that year.

      2. Absolutely let the new company know about this financial obligation and ask them if they’d rather delay your start date or give you a bonus (with no strings attached!) that covers the amount you’d owe.

      2a. This last is totally common. A friend just had a situation where his employer was shutting down the local office and asked him in like September to stay to end-of-year to help with the transition. So he job-hunted and secured his new job back in early November, with a plan to start in January. Last Monday, in fact. And with a better commute besides.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m confused as to what you’re asking. The company will probably be annoyed you’re leaving in under one year but they certainly won’t frown upon you paying back your signing bonus. They will however get annoyed if you balk at or otherwise drag your feet in paying it back. As for the burning the bridge part, it’s hard to say without knowing your industry and skillset but generally if you leave a company inside a year and they were willing to give you a sign on bonus I would not expect to be able to secure a job at said company again under normal circumstances.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I always wondered about tax implications. At least in the US, sign-on bonuses are taxed, right? What happens at tax time if you refund the bonus? DO you lose the taxed portion or does the gov’t refund that because it didn’t stay yours?

      1. Safetykats*

        If you pay back the bonus the same tax year, it works out pretty easily – you pay back the bonus you received, and the company files to recoup the taxes withheld. If the payback is in a subsequent year, you end up reflecting the payback as a deduction on your return, and if the amount is over some threshold I think you also file an amended return for the year in which you paid the taxes. At any rate, it’s compicated. TurboTax has some specific instructions on it, and there is an IRS publication dedicated to the subject.

    7. A Simple Narwhal*

      Echoing the others above who said to try and negotiate either a delayed start date or sign on bonus (to cover the repaid one) with your new employers. Depending on how much the bonus was or how close you are to the cut-off date it may be nothing to the company to cover the fee or wait a little while for you start.

  35. Golden*

    Anyone in the regulatory affairs space able to weigh in on how far out I should start applying for jobs? Any difference between applying for jobs in industry vs an academic setting?

    Ideally I will complete my PhD (in a biomedical science field) in September, so quite a few months out. My PhD is complete when a committee says it is (its not like undergrad where you pay the money, pass the classes and graduate on a schedule). I’ve been given the advice that you can essentially force their hand to allow you to graduate by having a job lined up, so I’m wondering when I should start applying in earnest. Thanks

    1. Lora*

      Oof. OK. In my experience there is nothing you can really do to force anyone’s hand, because academia sucks that way. I’m going to be ABD the whole rest of my life. And this is why some advisors are awesome and others are nightmare fuel, why some departments are excellent and others are not just clown cars but a whole circus. First grad school I went to, there were people who had been there 7 years with several publications and dissertation all written up, teaching requirements long-fulfilled several times over, and there was still just…no end in sight.

      In my field (pharma) PhD level jobs usually take 3-5 months from application to your first day in onboarding. Just, it moves sloooooowwww because there’s so many people who need to get their $0.02 in and then they get busy with other things and then there’s a re-org so they have to wait and repost the job, and and and. And assume that you’ll be applying to several openings and it’ll take a while to even get an interview unless you know someone; how long “a while” is depends on so many things outside of your control (economy, their pipeline, tech transfers to or from CMOs they may be doing, ongoing mergers and acquisitions, FDA backlog, all kinds of stuff) that it’s really hard to say. I would assume that your job search will take anywhere from 6-12 months though, so it’s not unreasonable to start looking now. Should a company want you to start ABD they may tell you that you’ll be given X support to finish up your first year with them, or have some similar arrangement, and they might change the job title to Fellow or some such in that regard. I would start looking now though.

      1. Golden*

        The clown car/circus thing made me lol. We definitely have a few PIs that hold students forever. I’m my PIs first so we’ll see but it looks promising to get out this year.

        Thanks for your detailed response – I’ll poke around at jobs and maybe ramp up in March-April.

    2. LKW*

      Pharma moves slooooow. I agree 3-5 months is pretty typical in industry. No one is going to give you a pass if you didn’t do the work. But having a job improves their stats so they want your success as much as you want it.

    3. FungirlAndFunguy*

      I agree with Lora that it is worth starting to apply now. You can include your expected graduation date as September 2020 in your resume and cover letter. At a minimum it can help you get a good feel for the types of jobs available, organizations you are interested in, and any skills that might be worth working on now before you graduate. In my field (synthetic biology), hiring seems to take 2-4 months from application to first day, but the hunt itself can take longer.

      Whether getting a job will force your committee’s hand or not depends on your department. In my department, there was a professor who was notorious for refusing to graduate his students and keeping them significantly longer than they wanted to stay. At least one student did get a job offer, and when the professor refused to graduate him in time for his start date, the student got the department head and I believe the graduate dean involved. This did end up the forcing his hand, and the student was able to graduate and begin his job on time. So even if the job offer doesn’t sway your committee, you can still use it to leverage help and support from your school that will sway your committee.

      1. Golden*

        I have a friend that may be in that situation with their PI. Ugh, academia…thanks for the advice though!

    4. Policy Wonk*

      You don’t mention government, but if you are looking at the regulatory space in government it can take a long time, so start now. Good luck!

      1. Golden*

        Do you happen to know if all those jobs are in DC? Partner and I have an area we’d ideally end up in chosen, but not locked in. Thanks!

        1. Lora*

          FDA, EMA, TGA, lots of government has field offices galore, and if you can travel so much the better. Various other languages help a LOT, especially Mandarin and Hindi.

    5. Cassandra*

      Start applying now. The places that hire PhDs will often hire people graduating or coming off a post-doc which are all tied to academic calendars. And actually to your point about “forcing your committee’s hand” I have actually seen that happen in my department (social sciences), but it was a situation where a colleague had a job lined up and was able to defend before meeting the number of participants she proposed based on her power analysis. BUT this probably only works in places where there is a precedent for letting people continue data collection after defending or something similar. On the other hand, I’ve heard of colleagues in the Chemistry department FAILING their defense because their results didn’t come out like they had hypothesized. so I would ask your advisor and others about what having a job opportunity would do for your defense.

      1. Golden*

        My “forcing of the hand” advice was anecdotal too, but that’s smart advice to talk to the advisor. Thanks!

        I can’t imagine failing the defense over ‘negative data’ if you will , that poor student :(

    6. Gidget*

      I would consider looking for a Postdoc. Those can be pretty flexible with start dates and hiring requirement, depending on the position, and they are generally used to a little uncertainity when it comes to defense dates. If the PI really wants you they are often willing to wait. Also, if your committee are very academic snobby they might respond more favorably to a postdoc because it means you are still on the path to continue in academia. If you do go the postdoc route, especially in biomedical, you can easily go into industry (my evidence is the many postdocs at my workplace that have done it)

      I would say it is not uncommon to start looking for a postdoc anytime during your expected last year of a Phd. (*Note: I Mastered out, but have many successful PhD friends who went this route)

      1. Golden*

        Thank you for your reply! Those are some strong points, but for a few reasons (ex: mental health, 2 body problem) I think I can very much rule a traditional postdoc out. I’m not even sure I like research or science anymore. I was considering doing a very very short postdoc with a committee member while I wait for my partner to finish, so your advice may be solid.

        My committee definitely prefers academia, but I’ve helped each of them directly in a more administrative role when no other students typically step up, so they know my non-bench skillset is very strong.

        FWIW taking a masters is a really brave step and I admire you greatly for it. I think that would have been the more logical route for me to go too a few years ago.

        1. Safetykats*

          I do t know that you can force your committee to give you a pass if you haven’t done the work. It is really common in science and engineering to start a job and return to defend; not common at all to be given a pass just because you have a start date. Of course, ifsuccessfu, completion of the degree is a requirement for the job, you may not be able to start until you have he diploma in hand. A lot of government jobs are like that, but the postings should make that clear. Many won’t actually issue an offer until you can prove your degree, and many will make the offer contingent upon completion. So just read carefully, and understand that the job posting will mean what it says regarding completion.

  36. Boss is MIA*

    I’m feeling frustrated with my boss and how little she is in the office or available. She is only in the office/working about 20-25 hours a week, and it’s making it really difficult for me to get my job done.

    Yesterday, she “worked from home” but in reality only spent about 30 minutes answering e-mails. I have a long list of items I need to go over with her this morning, and she texted me to tell me she will be in at 11:30AM after she goes to yoga. She has meetings starting right at 11:30AM all up until 2:00PM, and I expect when the last meeting is done she will go home (because it’s Friday afternoon and she is never here after 3:00 on Fridays).

    I’m all about self care, but I suspect she may be checking out. She is the CEO of the organization so she doesn’t really have a boss (the Board I guess, but they don’t really care).

    I also feel she is a little hypocritical because she gets upset or offended if staff try ask for more flexibility with their schedule. Outside of the CEO, senior leadership and myself, there is very little flexibility and staff are expected to be here from 9AM – 5PM. A coworker recently requested to move her hours from 8AM – 4PM so she could pick up her daughter from daycare. Her boss approved it and told the CEO, who was pissed because allowing that is against our policies. I can’t help but think that my boss is never here after 4PM, and I know staff have noticed it and some are starting to grumble about her lack of presence.

    It would be different if she was out at meetings all the time, or really working from home. However, that’s not the case and in reality I expect she only works about 30 hours (at the most) a week. I know it’s none of my business, and I haven’t spoken to anyone about this aside from writing this right now. I guess I am just not used to this; my previous bosses worked very hard and were often the first ones in/the last ones to leave the office.

    I know I just need to get over it and move on. The truth is that this is bothering me to the point of looking for another job, but I haven’t found anything yet. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Firstly, regarding her being a roadblock for you, I would suggest reframing each decision as follows:

      “We need to finalise the Jones account teapots. Options are straight or twisted handles. If I don’t hear from you before Monday 12pm I’ll assume we’ll go with straight handles like last time, and send instructions to the potters on Monday afternoon.”

      So she’s still the final decision maker, but you’ve stated your reasoned case and set a reasonable cutoff to get things moving.

      Regarding her hypocrisy, unfortunately when you’re the CEO you will get away with “do as I say, not as I do”. Sometimes we just have to suck it up*.

      *even when it’s totally unfair and stupid

      1. Boss is MIA*

        Thanks! I haven’t tried framing it like this before. We check in once a week and I usually keep a running list of things that need to get done and haven’t gotten done. She will acknowledge these items but often times they get put on the backburner. Sometimes she will end up delegating to other senior team member, which helps. They are all pretty good about getting things done.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          It’s the only way I can get an answer out of a c-suite I report to. Usually the reply is just “ok” or similar!

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          One name for this technique is “presumptive close”. And it’s really quite helpful — it’s much easier for most people to evaluate an existing option than to make a decision from scratch. So you lay out the issue, name 2 or 3 reasonable options, say you need to give someone else a decision by (deadline), so if you don’t hear differently from them, you’ll pick (the best one).

          (It’s similar to how it’s often easier to change someone else’s draft than to create your own. I saw this in action with a boss very early in my career: she had me draft an email to one of her peers, and then I sat next to her while she amended it. In the end, very few of my actual words were still there but all the important ideas were in place.)

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      I am curious about people’s thoughts on this one. I think the critical piece here is that it’s hard for you to get your job done. Any conversation with her should be focused solely on that aspect.

      I feel like you may have some generalized resentment that she is not working hard enough, but I’d be cautious about coming across as policing her work schedule. I can think of about 100 different circumstances that could explain what you’re observing. What matters is that you want to get your job done and have a difficult time doing that. Can she make certain hours to be available to you and the rest of the staff? Can you work out some alternative communication methods where she can respond to you more flexibly? I’d stay away from intimating that somehow you feel it’s up to you to judge her work schedule.

      1. Boss is MIA*

        Thanks for your feedback! Yes, I realize I need to be careful about policing her hours. I also realize I may not know what all is going on behind the scenes. I haven’t talked to her about this at all because I do worry how it may come across and I don’t want her to think I am being judgmental (although in reality that may be the case).

        I guess I frequently get text messages from her that say things like “I’m getting my nails done, I’ll be in at 11:30 today,” or “I need to leave by 3:00 to make it to yoga on time.” This kind of thing is why I referenced self care being important. While I understand the importance of it, it’s starting to get in the way of her being accessible or the both of us getting our work done in a timely manner.

        She works very hard when she is here and in the office. She will try to take work home with her and say she will take care of it overnight or over the weekend. However, she’ll come back the next day with nothing done and she will be rushing to meet deadlines, which is stressful to both her and me.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Yeah, there might be circumstances you’re unaware of or it might also just be that she’s a lazy slob who can’t be bothered to do her job. I mean who knows? But I think any discussion needs to be focused around ways for you to get your job done effectively. That’s where the rubber meets t he road.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          From a past letter, I am wondering — would it even be visible to you if she’s meeting with clients outside the 9-5 time frame? I could easily imagine reasons for a CEO to have meetings outside regular working hours — all it takes is investors, customers, or manufacturing vendors in vastly different time zones.

          1. Boss is MIA*

            Yes, I have full access to her schedule and actually schedule all her outside/after hours appointments. :)

    3. RC Rascal*

      I have worked for this boss. You need to look for another job.

      Bosses like this are usually using their positional authority to subvert normal employer expectations of employees. Not at all surprising to hear she doesn’t grant subordinates flexibility. Mine did the same.

      With the lack of boss face time comes a lack of knowledge regarding what is going on in the office. They compensate by lying and blaming you.

      Wish I had better things to say about this situation.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Possibly not the best answer, but I do find better answers if I have at least something to start with. Perhaps you can think of this as a starting point.

      Take Alison’s advice about “how does this impact your work?” To this I add the word “today” so the question looks like, “How does my boss’ absence impact my work TODAY?”

      The make a list of the most concerning things today. In the past I have prioritized by deadlines or angry people. If the task has a close deadline or an angry person behind the task, those tasks get done first. I don’t have time/patience/bandwidth for dealing with drama. Then send her an email (or call) that says, “I will have these things completed today and I need your inputs to complete them.” Yeah, frame it in a way that makes sense in your setting and for your relationship with your boss- my word choice here might not work with some bosses, but you see the general idea.

      For your own sanity, re-evaluate what you are doing. As you go through your day ask yourself, “Am I doing this because I need to or because I think I should?” Each day look for ways to eliminate unnecessary steps or unnecessary tasks. The reason this is important is because you need to find ways to lower your resentment. For myself, I would just assume that my resentment will build if I do not do something to help ME. Definitely do not do tasks that unappreciated UNLESS the task is an absolute necessity.

  37. Retail not Retail*

    My workplace nemesis has gotten worse but he’s not bothering me one-on-one as much, we’ve been doing whole group work instead of partnered.

    But he is SO RUDE to our work crew and they have no recourse (sentenced) and he never says anything explicit but overly complimenting someone or ordering them about when we’re supposed to do that… sounds like nothing on paper.

    My question is when does someone’s bullying of someone else require you the non-object of bullying to stand up? I went to HR about sexist comments directed at me so he stopped doing it to me – but moved on to others! does each victim have to say something?

    1. C in the Hood*

      It’s my understanding that if you are hearing something that offends you–even if it’s not directed at you–that it’s reportable as harrassment.

    2. WellRed*

      Go back to HR and say it’s still happening, though not directed at you, and that you find it offensive.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        The HR person I met with quibbled with my complaints – maybe “white trash” IS his favorite word and is an older man yelling “young lady” really sexist?

        I also strongly fear their reaction to homophobic statements as the policy is one of “mutual respect” and the comments are not directed at the two out lesbians (me!) but rather annoying straight men.

        1. valentine*

          Not that you should say this, but: White trash is racist because why the need to specify? It’s classist, so, I guess HR is okay with that? Check if your policy covers place of origin. And even if no protected class applies, “favorite word” isn’t a protected class, either, so your HR is willfully obtuse.

          Yes, “young lady” is sexist. I am old and I despite older men calling me young for any reason.

          It is still homophobic to make homophobic statements to people who aren’t gay.

          Appeal to HR on the basis that it’s conduct unbecoming an employee and what they’re really doing is hurting the company because who wants to associate with a place that allows this behavior?

    3. LKW*

      Check your policies. In my company if you’re aware that someone is being disrespectful to a co-worker, you are expected to address it in one or more of a number of ways, depending on your relationship to the people involved and your seniority with the company. If the behavior is being rude or curt, then it may be hard for the company to take action. But if the behavior is insulting or demeaning and lowers a person’s standing within the company, then HR may take the situation more seriously.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        One of my big complaints were issues with my name. He stopped and didn’t have problems with the next 2 employees’ names.

        But the next new employee? He not only butchers her name he calls her a nickname based on the butchery! Then turns around and lectures the work crew for not calling him the proper name. And he mangles their names too.

        The coworker has said she doesn’t mind so everyone says drop it, it’s up to her if it bothers her she’ll tell him. She’s also not bothered by his “teasing” about her appearance.

  38. Anonydoglover*

    Nepotism girl got fired and I got promoted!!! Woohoo! It comes with a pay raise and much more commission (I’m in sales). I’m so excited. But I need help with the one of the two pieces of contructive criticisms I received- how do I stay to myself and not gossip and or vent to everyone? I know it comes with age (I’m the youngest by a long shot in the office) and my boss told me to be careful about who I talk to. It’s hard When I get riled up. I love talking to people- but I know it’s something to work on. Any advice is great!

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I have found that when I NEED TO GET IT OUT but don’t have anyone that I can appropriately share it with, that it helps to write those things down. Especially the vents. Find a way to safely/securely write down those emotions – i have a “Journal” google doc file that’s just a running document (30+ pages at this point) where I write down whatever I need to get out.

      Bonus: it’s a good way to workthrough your thoughts!

      2. Marthooh*

        As long as nobody else ever sees it! Text it to yourself on your own phone or write it in a notebook you keep with you at all times. Don’t forget the many, many letters and comments about people who thought they had privacy at work but then found they didn’t!

      3. corporate engineering layoff woo*

        DON’T use any corporate resources for this! If you use your work laptop, work Cloud Storage account, or otherwise expose yourself to their record-keeping, this could be discovered by snooping/legal discovery/going through your files after you leave. Between other AAM posts and the end-of-week Boeing fiasco, be careful what and where you write.

    2. Bostonian*

      Oooh that’s tough. My husband is in sales, and I’ve heard about the gossip, cliques, baiting, and snide remarks/”jokes” that are all part of the culture. Do you have a trusted mentor you can vent to on occasion? Particularly if it’s framed as looking for guidance in a tough situation, I can’t see that being used against you.

      Another tactic could be to just be more selective about who you talk to. You probably know who the biggest offenders are when it comes to stirring the pot, so you can usually just avoid telling them anything too juicy to spread around.

      Hubby also vents to me when he gets home. I usually let him get one rant out and then steer the conversation towards something more mutually relevant. :-)

    3. Mrs_helm*

      (1)Find someone completely outside your company who doesn’t know anyone you work with, go out for coffee, dump there. (2)Imagine discussing x with (distinguished person you respect)…would they think venting about x was petty or warranted? What would change about how you discussed it? (3) Work more, talk less. I read somewhere that ‘venting’ can actually heighten the emotion of an event, not release it. It’s certainly obvious that the more you talk about a thing, the more time spent on it, and the more you’ll remember it. (4) Don’t vent uphill.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Huge yes to (3). Discussing a problem with the goal of finding a solution, figuring out a path forward, etc. = good, fine, helpful, productive. “Venting” with no goal except to express frustration = often counterproductive because it just entrenches and legitimizes those feelings of frustration.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      Congratulations!

      I am a bit of the same way, and it can be hard to keep it to myself (especially since much of my work is confidential.) I do two things: I have a very animated conversation with myself so that I get a chance to say it all out loud and talk about it – with no one! Also, writing/journaling. Or, I will write a lengthy email to myself on work email, send it to my work email (again, confidential) then delete both the sent and received copies. Or I go for a long run and then I’m so tired that I am over it.

      Good luck!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Muriel, I’d suggest not using work email even if you delete it, because IT spins off archive copies. Many companies send email through a filter and check for spam + NSFW.
        I’m the first one to admit I get lazy and my work email for family chores, but I never vent on it.

    5. Bex*

      Never forget that work is work. Relationships are super important, and you should absolutely be friendly, but “work friends” are coworkers before they are friends. Be warm, be thoughtful, ask people how they are doing, but keep your shit to yourself. Never say something that you wouldn’t say in front of your boss, because there is always a chance that it will get back to them. Keep your venting to you social circle, keep it completely out of the workplace.

    6. Indy Dem*

      I can suggest 2 possibilities. Identify one or two trusted co-workers to talk about these things (and others! not just vent buddies), but make sure that any venting is done outside of work (lunch break is okay, but only when eating away from work). The other possibility is using this open thread to vent. Seriously, the group here can give some good feedback, generally wishes people well, and you can hear a variety of opinions.
      A possible third option would be to engage a therapist as a work/life coach to discuss issues and work on changing your behavior – wouldn’t be long term, but might help starting you down a good path.

    7. Approval is optional*

      I had a friend who was a ‘venter’, and she had a two part strategy to stop doing it at work.
      First was to mentally keep a list of ‘things to vent about later’. So if Fergus microwaved fish, she’d tell herself (internally) ‘going to have to put that on the vent list’.
      Second part was to go through the list as she commuted. She drove to/from work, so if another driver did something irritating, she’s add something from her vent list to the ‘sin’. So if, for example, someone cut her off she’d say, out loud, something like, ‘damn [or other profanity, depending on her level of annoyance] Fergus, first you microwave fish, then you cut me off .’
      She found that she didn’t need to release all the vents: knowing she could was enough. And often she wasn’t still irked about the fish by the time she was commuting. She wasn’t so much into gossip (as in who took too long a lunch, or what the rumour mill was saying about Fergus etc) , but the system could have been tweaked for that if needed of course.
      Worked for her, and made commuting with her very entertaining (though possibly it would have been less entertaining if one commuted with her everyday).

    8. Anonydoglover*

      Thank you everyone for the kind words. You all gave me some really good tips, now I just need to work on it. I will be saving this as a reminder.

  39. Kramerica Industries*

    Management has agreed to take on a project in January that mathematically is not possible to complete without overtime. While the project itself will require overtime every other day just to make it, we’re still expected to complete our normal day-to-day functions. A part of me wants to let whatever falls through the cracks happen since management did not properly prepare or resource for this workload. On the other hand, I know it’s just temporary. In the event that daily work plus the project pile up too much, how much overtime is too much and can I push back? I don’t usually mind overtime, but I already feel stressed and a little slighted that my team is now bearing the brunt of poor management decisions.

    1. CheeryO*

      Unfortunately, I think this probably depends a lot on your company culture and how much you feel like you can get away with in your role. My boyfriend’s company constantly agrees to wildly unrealistic timelines, and while he doesn’t mind doing some OT, he does push back to an extent. If you asked him, he’d say that there’s only so much quality work you can do in a single day or week, and if you kill yourself to meet an impossible deadline, you’re only teaching management that it’s okay to do it again, and that they don’t need to bring on more staff. However, he does have some weight to throw around, so to speak. He has some seniority, has half a foot out the door, and the company is hurting for qualified people in his role.

      1. CheeryO*

        To add to that, definitely don’t be shy about asking for help with prioritizing your work. Sometimes you have to remind people that X, Y, and Z routine tasks can’t just magically get done while you’re furiously working on Big Project.

    2. san junipero*

      I can’t say for certain what you’ll *get*, but I do think you should try to estimate how much overtime it will genuinely take. Don’t pad, but don’t tell them you need 5 hours of overtime if you really need 20.

  40. ManagerWannabe*

    I’ve decided that I would like to become a manager, and specifically I would like my boss’ job. My boss has said he will be retiring in a couple years, and he said he thinks I’d be a great manager, and would help me succeed in that career path if I choose to do it (so I’m not just mercilessly out for his job!). I’d like to manage my current team, because we have a great dynamic, I know the responsibilities really well, and I think I would be a good candidate for bridging the gap between the work we offer (database management) and our client community at large (big state university). I have decent technical skills, but I’m never going to be as good as my more technical coworkers – and I think my skills and personality are just better suited for leading a team than being a high-level technical contributer.

    Obviously I would still need a lot of training/coaching on all aspects of management, but I’m excited about giving it a try. However I’m also terrified, because being responsible for other people is scary, and it seems like failure would be distastrous. Also…if I determine that management is not for me, how do I go back?

    I would appreciate any advice/lessons learned from people who stepped into a management role (especially in IT), what they did for a “back up plan” (if you had one), and how you approached talking about all this with your bosses. I don’t want to lose my job if I’m bad at this, or decide it’s not for me. I’m also worried about giving up time I could be using to develop my technical skills, and if I discoverer management is not for me, I’d be rusty and non-competitive for jobs that I’d need. It seems like a great step, but also a terrifying one!

    1. Wandering_beagle*

      It’s great that you have identified that being a manager is a path you want to try pursuing and that there are people who want to support you to move you in that direction. It’s also great that you are going to have a couple years to work on that.

      This is tangential to what you are asking, but I have a lesson learned from being in a similar situation and have to caution you: there’s no guarantee your boss will retire in a couple years, and there’s no guarantee that you will get the role if he does retire. As long as you remember to not have that expectation that this is a done deal (and be willing to seek a position elsewhere if this plan doesn’t work out), I think you’ll be fine. If you work on developing your manager side over the next couple years while continuing to do your technical work, you can see where you are at then and decide if you want to try for a manager role or keep doing technical work.

      My situation was that I was in a two-person department for a few years with a director who was constantly talking about how she was going to retire, and how I could have her job if I wanted when she left. She was eager to show me the ropes and spent a lot of time with me helping develop my skills. It seemed like it was really going to happen! The date that she said she was going to retire came and went *many* times. After much disappointment, I was like, ‘This is never going to happen.’ I left, got a higher-paying job elsewhere and never looked back. I would occasionally check in to see if my old director had retired and it was like, 5 years after I left that she finally did. By that time, I had already left that industry and city. It was a really good lesson in checking my expectations.

      1. ManagerWannabe*

        Thanks for replying! I am definitely aware that this could happen. My boss retiring –> pretty sure that’s a done deal, but me getting his job? Not a certainty at all. Even if he did his best to put me in that position, my division gets reorganized so much, there’s just no telling what they’re going to do with it. I could get the job exactly as I want it, and it be great for six months…and then they reorg again.

        And I think that plays into this “what am I giving up to pursue this” fear. I would like to stay at my organization long term, but if they hire someone external/reorg under a different boss/etc, would I be capable/skilled enough to find a job elsewhere? Especially if I’m doing management training, but still didn’t have management experience?

        1. Safetykats*

          I don’t think it’s an either/or situation, unless you make it one. In most companies you can definitely work on whatever management training program they have while still doing technical work. You can also apply for a management job, not get it, and keep doing technical work in the same group, unless you’re going to take not getting the job so personally that you can’t stay.

          It’s good that you realize your current boss can’t guarantee you their job after they leave – if only because they won’t actually be the hiring manager. (That would be their boss, of course.) However, if they think you’re a good candidate, that’s usually worth something. So I would take advantage of the situation, and good luck!

  41. Gaslit*

    Any advice for dealing with gaslighting at work? I think it’s going on at my job and it’s really messing me up.

    1. Mid*

      Without more details, I’d just try to get everything possible in writing, and keep copies for yourself.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      It’s not really happening. I KID! I KID! Seriously though, start documenting. Save copies of files, print hard copies, follow-up conversations with emails, take pictures if you have to.

      Even if you don’t have immediate recourse or someone to take your evidence to, you’ll have this for your own piece of mind. Then you can decide whether or not this workplace is for you.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Document everything. Trust yourself. Gaslighting is the worst.

      Is it one person or a group of people? If it’s one person, try not to be alone with them if it’s avoidable. In my experience (20 years of working with teenagers), gaslighters are less likely to act in front of witnesses.

      Good luck! I am so sorry this is happening to you.

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          That’s awful. I am so sorry that is happening to you. But it sounds like you have identified what sounds like at best, a behavior that has a negative effect on you. I’d avoid being alone with those two people whenever you can and if that’s not possible, just take everything they say and do with several grains of salt.

          Document everything, and if it’s relevant, reiterate things that they have said in email back to them. Create a record.

          Good luck! I hope this behavior comes to a stop.

    4. Not a cat*

      I worked w/ a passive-aggressive strain of that species for years. Like the good folks here said, document everything. I was so happy when he quit, I bought a very fancy and expensive “going away” cake when he gave notice.

    5. Mrs. K*

      I have been a union rep for many years, and have had to assist others in dealing with this. Document document document. As the others stated, it will help your sanity as well as to create a record. You should keep a notebook or a file on your personal device stating dates, times, who was present, what was said etc. For conversations that directly impact your work, send a follow up email restating your understanding of what was discussed. That can help a lot if they try to stir up trouble with the boss.

  42. WearingManyHats*

    Just a shout out to all the Department of One HR/Finance/IT/Admin folks out there. I’m trying to complete a state tax audit with my HR background and it’s tough going, as my predecessors didn’t keep much of anything. What’s the wildest think you’ve had to deal with?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Oh, well I had a boss who kept lousy/imaginary records, so one day the state auditor told us to stand up and step away from our desks, and escorted us all into the conference room. The boss and the office manager were asked questions, and we were allowed to go home after about two hours. When they asked if anyone had any questions people wanted to know if they were in trouble—I just wanted to know if he had actually been paying into our withholding (smile from auditor).

    2. AlsoManyHats*

      Shortly after I became a Department of One, I realized that both our health insurance and our workers comp coverage only covered employees at our main office, and not our handful of employees based in other states. Also, our broker had gone AWOL and not bothered to renew our liability insurance or our directors & officers insurance.

      By some miracle it happened to be open enrollment so we were able to immediately add an additional health insurance plan for new remote employees who otherwise wouldn’t have had access to coverage, and as for the rest of it, we were just really lucky that nothing bad happened before I was able to straighten it out.

      This was the first time I’d ever touched anything related to insurance, so I was literally just googling terms on paperwork that had come in the mail to figure out what coverage we needed.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve come in immediately after the owners have found embezzlement situations… the books and timecard records were essentially a wasteland.

    4. Krabby*

      I had the fun experience of realizing that our old Sales Director had been paying out quarterly bonuses to Sales Support based on nothing but “feelings.” It was written in all of their contracts that the bonuses were X% of total sales divvied up between all of them based on a specific metric. That was not what was happening. Instead, he was just taking that amount and splitting it up based on who he liked the most.

      I found out when he quit without notice and we were scrambling to figure out how he pulled the metric from our sales system.

  43. Anon this time*

    Inspired by the post earlier this week about resigning when it’s a bad time, and the (good) advice Alison gave that a good boss shouldn’t take it personally because you can’t always control when an offer is going to come…

    Would love to hear experiences from AAMers who have resigned when they *did* have control over when it happened, and chose to resign at a “bad time” anyway. I am 80% sure I want to quit my full-time job and become a contractor, so that I can work fewer hours in my “pays-the-bills” job and spend more time developing my work on a passion project that makes money, but not a lot of it.

    I’d like to quit fairly immediately after bonuses are awarded at my current company, because why leave that chunk of money on the table? (I do not work in finance, so it’s not a giant percentage of my salary, but it’s non-negligible and I worked my tail off last year so I want that cash!) Most likely this will leave my boss in a bind, as I have a lot on my plate and will for the foreseeable future.

    I do need to maintain a good relationship with my boss and other colleagues, since when I switch over to contracting I’ll want to be able to work for them again at some point, just not in a full-time capacity.

    Should I stick with my plan to quit after bonuses? Wait some “decorous” amount of time so my boss (who is a believer in loyalty) doesn’t hold my being mercenary against me? Something else I haven’t thought of? (I do NOT want to wait until it’s a “good” time, because that could be months or YEARS.)

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I quit a past restaurant job during the busiest time of the year when they were already understaffed, specifically because I started developing health issues and tried to switch to part time and the manager wouldn’t let me because he “needed me” despite being condescending and rude every single time we talked, so I figured if I couldn’t reduce my hours, I would just quit and get a desk job that was easier on my body. Everyone there was furious with me even though I gave notice, but it was such a toxic and backstabbing work environment that I didn’t care.

      1. Dragoning*

        My last day at a retail job was December 23rd (although this was because I got a new job offer, so not chosen timing, although the new job didn’t start until mid-January…and management was furious with me, a cashier/stock person, for leaving because I knew the store better than they did.

        Those kinds of jobs are just terrible.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      It’s pretty common to quit after bonuses/vesting/etc. In this case if you want to be extra nice about it, you can give a longer notice period to help transition the projects to others, and then it’s up to your boss if s/he wants to take advantage of that or if they want a shorter transition. Good luck!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup – I always wait until I get my bonuses deposited into my account and then I quit, lol. I left one company after receiving my bonus money and in the middle of hurricane season when we were drowning under Harvey/Irma/Maria claims, and I put in my resignation at my last employer the day my bonus cleared my bank account, lol. They all survived.

    3. Mr. Shark*

      I quit my job after receiving my bonus, but I gave a month notice (waiting a week or two after bonus before giving notice). No time is going to be a good time, as many people have said on AAM. I knew there was a busy time coming up, but I had planned to move.
      It ended up that we hired someone to fill my spot, but they were pretty horrible, so even though I moved, I came back for just over a month during the busy season to help out, and we hired someone else, and they were fantastic for the job. So it all worked out. Since you might come back as a contractor, you can do the same thing. Give sufficient notice, and then come back as a contractor in the busy season if necessary.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      No time will ever be a good time. So give your notice after the bonus (make sure there are no strings attached first). If you’re not urgent to leave you can always give more than 2 weeks notice time which should help smooth things.

    5. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I did exactly this a week ago. I’m being very thorough in my transition documents and even interviewed and helped my bosses choose my replacement. Unfortunately for them, the worst time of year to resign was when a great opportunity came my way. I always was a hardworking employee and that is all I believe I owe them.

  44. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I resigned from my job Weds and today they say they are ” restructuring” and that I can have a different job with less driving and more set hours

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      Are you otherwise happy there? I do feel like if they only care about making changes to keep you when you actually hand in your resignation that it’s usually better to move on though, and I believe Alison has said the same in the past.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      were the problems that they’re offering to fix the ones that actually made you want to leave?

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I mostly just felt I wasn’t doing well at the job. My deadlines are always missed, my children hate counseling, and I wasn’t doing half of the things I needed to do. When I lost all motivation to work I wanted to leave

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I’d still leave then, especially if you thought you weren’t doing well and were missing deadlines. That kind of thinking, whether it’s true or not, could lead you to seriously underperforming, which could then land you in a position to be let go down the road.

  45. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Constantly stuck covering for a coworker who is always calling in sick. She works reception, my regular job has no customer service though I’m extremely experienced in it, so whenever she calls my boss asks me to drop my entire schedule and go do her job all day. I was annoyed but I’ve been working with her for a while and she doesn’t normally call in this much so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Then, while she was complaining about the other receptionist, she admitted she was so sick of working with her that she’s been calling in sick for her “mental health”. I have actual severe mental health conditions I’m on heavy medication and intermittent FMLA for, and am super pissed and resentful since dealing with basically everyone except my husband and a few close friends is stressful for me, literally the reason I don’t do customer service full time anymore. She acts like the other receptionist is this monster but when I cover with her, though I do find her personality a little annoying and don’t find her particularly intelligent, she does her job well enough to meet the demands of our organization, and she’s clearly doing her best. Am I the a-hole for reporting my coworker faking being sick to our boss?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Tell your boss, but I wouldn’t phrase it like you’re outing her for being sick. I would focus on you and how this is affecting you and your ability to do the job you were hired for. Lay it out as matter of factly as you can.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I already did. I just feel super guilty for doing it. She does make significantly less than me so that’s part of why I feel bad.

        1. Working with professionals*

          Remember that this is her pattern of behavior and not something you are doing to her. Sounds as if she’s more than halfway out the door already.

            1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

              I have ADHD and they wouldn’t do that. Anyway, it’s not the phones that’s hard for me, it’s the complete disruption of the work I need to do and my schedule (have to reschedule meetings, get home an hour later, etc).

        2. Just Another Manic Millie*

          How did you get your boss to believe you? I mean, if I were in your position, I would worry that the receptionist would lie and claim that she never said any such thing to you, and the boss wouldn’t know whom to believe, and would probably give the receptionist the benefit of the doubt.

          1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

            Why wouldn’t they believe me? I’m very senior to her and a higher performer. They’ve received complaints about the front desk drama from other staff. And…when you call in sick on both a Monday and a Friday in the same week that pretty much speaks for itself.

            1. Just Another Manic Millie*

              I wondered if they would believe you because at a previous job, the receptionist would call in sick because she didn’t feel like going to work. I knew this because she specifically told me so. No, I did not ask her about it. But I knew that if I told the office manager this, the receptionist would deny it, and I couldn’t count on the office manager believing me, even though, just like you, SOC Diamond, I was senior to her and a higher performer. And other people had complained about her.

              As a matter of fact, the receptionist had confided in me that she had never worked before, that it had been her mother’s idea that she should pretend to have worked at her mother’s company (without saying that her mother worked there, of course), and she should use her mother as a reference (with the mother using a phony name and pretending that she wasn’t her mother, of course). The mother gave her such a glowing reference that the office manager told me, before the receptionist started at the company, that the receptionist was a real jewel and something special and I should make it a point to be extra nice to her. From the beginning, the receptionist was nasty and lazy, because she hated working and wanted to be fired, but the office manager wouldn’t fire her, because she had gone on and on about how great this receptionist was, and firing her would be admitting that she had made a mistake, and she hated admitting that she had made a mistake.

              If I had told the office manager that the receptionist’s reference was bogus and was given by her mother, I don’t think the receptionist would have been fired. Because then the office manager would be admitting that she had made a mistake. But I was afraid that the receptionist might say to the office manager, “I never worked before. My mother made up my reference, and you were stupid enough to believe it. I told this to Millie, and we just laughed and laughed at you.”

              Then the office manager would most likely get angry at me, and I would have to tell her that yes, I did know that the receptionist’s reference was bogus, but no way did I laugh at her, and I don’t know what she would have thought. Fortunately, after a couple of years, the office manager told me that she came to an agreement with the receptionist, that she should leave the company and file for unemployment, and the company would not fight it. I was glad, because that eliminated the chance that the receptionist would tell the office manager that I knew all along that her reference had been bogus.

                1. Just Another Manic Millie*

                  Oh, that’s okay! The receptionist was really stupid. Her last name was a homophone of the last name of a baseball player on our local team. As people walked by the front desk, she would say, “Did you know that that baseball player and I are married?” People would just keep walking by. Maybe they said “Huh,” but nothing more. Eventually, she complained to me that no one seemed to believe her. I said that it was probably because they wondered why she spelled her last name differently than the way he spelled his last name. He also was well-known at the time for being a bachelor.

    2. Fikly*

      This is incredibly frustrating!

      But just like you can’t diagnose someone, you can’t not diagnose someone, which is to say, you can’t know that she doesn’t have mental health conditions that are the reason she’s calling out.

      So leave that out of the conversation with your boss. Focus on the practicalities of how the situation affects you.

    3. Pieska Boryska*

      Yeah, it really does. You just said she’s calling out for mental health reasons and somehow that equals faking? Just because she prioritizes her well-being more than you do doesn’t mean she’s doing anything wrong! The ethical way to handle this would have been telling your boss you can’t continue to cover for her for your own health reasons.

  46. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I have reasons to believe the hellmouth spun off a corporate subsidiary that was acquired by my company.
    We’ve had an open position since 2018. Corporate filled that with someone in another country who didn’t actually report to us and was outside our software licensing area. Before licensing was resolved, she was assigned projects for her local manager. When my boss & grandboss objected, she was abruptly transferred to the other division. Apparently that lost us the headcount because the job hasn’t been reposted.
    Our supervisor left in August because she was expected to cover the extra without giving up tasks, missing deadlines, or spending OT. That was unsustainable and no one upstairs listened. Her job was posted — but at least two excellent candidates identified by my grandboss haven’t been hired.

    My grandboss’s position was eliminated, so now we’re on the org chart reporting to an extremely senior person at HQ who didn’t even reply when my co-worker gave notice two weeks ago.
    Today is my co-worker’s last day. We now have too few people to be primary on all the categories we cover – let alone backup for vacations & illness. HR claims that her position and my supervisor’s will be replaced, but they said nothing about the opening from 2018.
    I’ve been calling some of the senior people in various departments, explaining the situation and asking them to keep an ear open for projects & information that affects my group, and asking them to speak up: “Has anyone contacted $GROUP about this since they don’t have anyone in this meeting?”
    In the middle of all that, we’ve had mice and anthills show up in carpeted areas of our very corporate building.
    Mostly this is a vent — but suggestions are welcome.

      2. JustaTech*

        Fire ants? Sugar ants? Carpenter ants?

        I mean, any ants in an office building are a major problem, but if it’s fire ants … those can be really dangerous.

        I don’t have any suggestions for the rest – that really sucks.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Sugar ants thank goodness. And no structural stability to worry about. It’s a slab foundation in an area with sandy soil and the anthills (2 I know of) appeared about where the 25+year old addition starts, so it’a probably a trivial crack… but it was pretty staggering to see in carpet tile.

      3. Red Fraggle*

        *horrified face* Yeah, now I’m worried about the structural stability of your building in addition to the feasibility of your workload.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The floor will be fine, that’s one good thing about slab foundations.
          (The ceiling though…remember that year of endless blizzards? They had to call in emergency crews to shovel the roof so I want out before another bad snowfall year!)

          1. Fikly*

            We had to shovel 4 feet of snow off our deck (house is on a hill, deck overhangs a hill) one year because we were afraid it would fall off the house.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I fear it transmitted through AAM from last year’s commenter. It’s like that Charles De Lint story where pixies got into the Internet and got OUT at the main character’s store. (Does a reversible vest count as turning your sweater inside out for protection?)

    3. Sondra Uppenhowzer*

      You need to look for work in a different department or company. Your division has had an opening from 2018 that has yet to be filled, and the office is literally falling apart (mice and anthills) — and these are just the visible signs. Who knows what sort of managerial dry rot is hidden? You might love your job, but you need to do it somewhere else. Chances are you are probably underpaid, because managers like this tend to be lax on yearly reviews/raises and promotions.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’m working on the resume and purging my files already. We’re badly neglected. I believe we’re seen as unnecessary overhead. It could get ugly if TPTB try to eliminate our little piece of the product, only to be reminded that it’s a regulatory requirement. And uglier trying to rebuild it if they’ve eliminated institutional history.
        Thanks for reinforcing my decision.

  47. Aggretsuko*

    I’m (a) losing my favorite aspect of my job that I’ve been doing forever, basically to get me 100% away from my old evil team that it’s been handed to, (b) being transferred back to my old team, which I love, but none of us is looking forward to having to take on ALL of the other’s workload so we have “backup,” and (c) they’re taking me out of my nice private office after a few months of having it.

    I am sad. I know I don’t rate an office and never will and they said it was temporary, but I didn’t think it’d be like 4 months level of temporary.

  48. Jane too*

    For IRS purposes, I am considered self-employed although I work in a small international organisation with no HR. US tax payers are reimbursed for taxes to keep employment fair with non US employees who are not liable from US taxes. Salaries are paid net of taxes. The organisation’s ‘policy’ is to make the reimbursed tax payment to us ‘within 14 days of the quarterly due date’. This policy seems illogical as payment is due to the IRS on January 15 and according to the policy, the organisations reimbursement check to me can be provided anytime within the 14 days prior to and including January 15.

    Any suggestions for language to discuss this with the boss to alleviate the tension of waiting for the checks before making my payments?

    1. Mid*

      I’d see if you can get a group of people together and explain that having to front $xxx is difficult to impossible for many people, and so they cannot pay taxes before getting that check, so it would be beneficial to the company and employees to get checks at least X days before the 15th.

  49. August*

    Three months ago, I made the transition from my multiple low-paying jobs in the nonprofit world to a much better-paying single job in government. I love the money. At the age of 24, it’s more than double what I’ve made at my previous jobs. I do not love the job itself. It’s boring, there’s no potential for advancement, and I worry a lot about how I’m going to list my mundane administrative duties on my resume. I dread every Monday in a way that I never have with my previous jobs.

    Subsequently, I’ve been covertly job searching, and recently got offered an interview for a really exciting legislative position– it’s not my dream job, but it’s the kind of job that could easily set me up on my ideal career path. The salary would be a 16% decrease for me; it’s not so low that I would have to move back in with my parents, but I would be living paycheck to paycheck— nothing after I’ve paid my monthly fixed expenses. I’m torn. There are tons of young professionals who take low-paying jobs so they can break into their field! This could be an amazing opportunity for me! I thought I was the kind of ambitious person who would go to certain lengths for my career, but I am so, so reluctant to give up my current salary. I can’t help but feel greedy and entitled for wanting an interesting job AND the ability to buy a latte once a week.

    Is this normal? How do people make these kinds of calculations? I’m especially uncertain because I thought my current job would be a huge step forward career-wise, and I’m feeling a bit burned now that I’ve realized it’s a dead end.

    1. Mid*

      Why do you think there is no career advancement in this current role? Also, if you’ve only been at this role for 3 months, how will that impact your resume if you’re fairly early on in your career? (Though in legislative world, it’s pretty common to have a lot of short stints, in my experience, so there probably isn’t much of an issue.)

      Assuming you’re interested in political-ish jobs, have you considered working on campaigns as a part time gig while keeping your current, well paid job? I used to have a side gig writing white papers for a few members of my State Senate. There are ways to build your career outside of this one job. It might be less direct, but it’s very possible.

      Also, it’s very normal to struggle with this and want to be comfortable but also want to have the career you dreamed of. I’m currently in a job that isn’t glamorous and does have a lot of boring admin work, but does pay me enough to finally be comfortable, to pay my rent without worry, and to save money every month. It’s an amazing feeling to not be living paycheck to paycheck.

      I was also recently offered an opportunity to do something I’m a lot more passionate about, but for $15k less than I’m currently making, which would put me right back in 3 roommates, 2 side gigs, zero latte territory. I turned it down. I’ve been at my current role for less than 6 months, and I’ve found the lack of stress from worrying about money has allowed me to have so much more energy to volunteer and get involved with things I care about, while also being able to breathe.

      Ultimately, no one can make this choice for you. When you’re relatively young and have less financial obligations (no mortgage or kids or whatever else), it’s easier to take a pay cut. Is the risk worth the potential reward? That’s up to you.

      Personally, I chose financial security. I’ve spent the last 6 years balancing 5 jobs and constantly counting pennies and having every single crises go on my credit cards, and it wore me down in ways I didn’t expect or understand until I was out of that situation.

      But, I wouldn’t think less of anyone who chose the other path. Best of luck, whatever you choose.

      1. August*

        I wouldn’t say there’s absolutely no opportunities for advancement, but a very common joke around the office is what a dead end my department is. The last person in this joke quit at 3 months, the one before that transferred out, etc. The only people who have stayed are near retirement and in it for the benefits.

        I didn’t think about a side gig like that! Can I ask how you got into that position? Is it a posted role, or more of an informal “I heard you’re good at X” sort of thing?

        Thanks for the advice, this is all good for me to think about!

        2. CheeryO*

          Well, you could always transfer too! I can’t tell you how many people I have worked with at my state agency who put in a year or two in either a terribly boring or terribly paid position in order to springboard into something better, either in another department or another state agency.

        3. Mid*

          It was more informal. I had interviewed to be a Legislative Aide, but they transitioned the role to year-round instead of a summer role, and it didn’t pay enough for me to be willing to pause my schooling for it. But, I interviewed well enough that they asked if I’d be willing to write some white papers, and it grew from there. (My application required a sample white paper.) I’m not doing it this session, but I’m thinking about getting back into it next session to keep my writing sharp while I’m in my current non-political job.

          You’ll see postings for research assistant sometimes, or even legislative aide, but as part time work, and those usually involve a lot of white paper writing, or sometimes even press statement drafting. They usually say they want someone who is available during working hours, but I’ve found it isn’t much of an issue if your resume is strong and you’re a good writer.

          I’d see if you can network and get to know people who are doing that currently, and when they complain about being overloaded with work, offer to pick some of it up as a contractor! So so much of the politics world is about who you know more than anything else. And honestly, working for local government can open a lot more doors than you’d initially think, even in a role that seems far from politics. I know a few people who went from a DMV-esque position to very political positions, because they met the right people and learned the ropes and nuances of the government.

          1. August*

            Ah, the position I’ve been offered is a research position, actually! A big thing that’s had me hesitating is that I don’t see a way to break into the policy research realm without starting at the bottom (ie the position I’ve been offered). They don’t seem to do external hires for, I don’t know, Senior Policy Director, they just promote everyone from within.

            But thank you! This is really insightful.

    2. Forgot my username*

      Is it possible to take the new job and move in with your parents? That way you’d have the best of both worlds – a job that seems more likely to lead to a career you like and more financial security (you’d want to be saving money for “rainy days” and to give yourself an emergency cushion in anticipation of the time in the future when you can move out again).

      That said, I am torn by your scenario. On the one hand, many “entry level” jobs are not very intellectually stimulating and can feel like they don’t seem to have room for advancement. I remember being surprised by how much more I got to use my brain in college vs. my first 1 or 2 jobs after college. On the other hand, although I’ve never worked in government, it certainly does have a reputation for people kind of stagnating through many years of employment without being very motivated and without being able to advance their own skills.

      Good luck to you!

      1. August*

        Moving back in with my parents would be a deal breaker for me, unfortunately — it’d mean an hour commute each way, vs my current 10-minute walk.

        And yup, our thought processes are the same on this one! I’m willing to put in my time to move up in a boring office job, but there definitely are quite a few folks stagnating here. When I took this job, I initially thought I could use all of my new free time to start hobbies and do professional development stuff, but it’s so mind numbing that I just go home and lie around.

        1. Red Fraggle*

          Oh no, the numbing has begun?! Crap. Um, can you make yourself exercise immediately after work? That shakes it off for some people and lets them have productive evenings. But don’t feel bad if you only do “other” stuff on the weekends.

    3. Red Fraggle*

      You’re not greedy. I know our society normalizes (and romanticizes) sacrificing to break into your field, but the mental toll of scraping by that Mid mentioned is REAL. Think long and hard about what you’d do and how you’d feel if you got stuck for years at this better-fit-but-lower-paying job. What happens if the rent in your area goes way up? Or if your car breaks (assuming you have one)? Or if you get sick? If you did have to move back in with your parents, how long could you stand it? I’m not going to say “don’t do it!” because nothing in life is risk-free, but there’s something to be said for a financial cushion.

      (Personal horror story: As a recent grad I took a foot-in-the-door job with credible promises of advancement…6 months before the recession hit. I’ll spare you the details, but my 20s were hell and my now-spouse doesn’t quite understand why I still agonize over money.)

      1. August*

        Oh man, I’m sorry you had to deal with that. The articles predicting a recession in our near future have me lying awake at 3am sometimes. I have a decent safety net, but I can’t get over the possibility of giving up a stable, well-paying, incredibly boring job for this exciting, low-paying, occasionally high turnover job. I want it, but aaaahhhhhh the risks are so high!

        1. Red Fraggle*

          And I want to tell you eff it, go take that job! You can’t predict the economy, and playing it “safe” forever will only make you bitter, so do what you want.

          If the neat job is “occasionally high turnover” on a fairly predictable timeframe, can you give yourself a deadline to GTFO of the current job and save up in the meantime? Or will staying just rot your brain?

          1. August*

            That’s a good point! And it’s so hard to tell — I’d like to think that I could stay level headed and calmly keep an eye out for the next time the position opens up in a year, but the reality is that I might spend the entire time losing sleep like “what if the position NEVER opens up, what if you process financial statements with your 70-year-old coworkers FOREVER.”

    4. anonanna*

      I’d go for the job you’re passionate about! As a fellow broke recent college grad I know money is a huge deal, but it sounds like you can swing this change financially. Look at it as a long-term investment for your career path. I just left my state’s legislative branch for government affairs and it’s definitely an exciting/interesting realm of work, so I’d personally recommend the switch as well :)

      1. anonanna*

        also wanted to add as advice/encouragement (after the other comments loaded!):
        This line of work is highly connection based. I knew RAs and LAs who started out as interns or in completely random roles in the branch and were able to move up to legislative/research assistant roles. In my state, if you’re the assistant to a member on committees, you get additional financial compensation for each committee they’re on. I had a nonpartisan role in my state’s branch and left it for a job that pays a little more and will help me develop advocacy skills in the private sector, but I definitely credit that first job for helping me get the second. Good luck!

        1. August*

          Thank you so much, it’s actually a huge relief to hear that from someone who’s worked in that field! If I can ask: was money the primary factor in your switch to the private sector? I love the essential job duties of this offered position, but some of the things the hiring manager mentioned (the frequent turnover, the heavy workload, etc.) make me wonder if I’d be able to hack it long term. My past nonprofit jobs had heavy workloads, but were very forgiving, casual, and flexible.

          1. anonanna*

            Hi, August! Sorry it took me a bit to reply. Money didn’t hurt but it was definitely not the big factor. My position was only busy about half the year and was incredibly slow and mind-numbing the other half- sounds like I switched for similar reasons as you! I also realized I’m much more focused on policy/issues rather than partisan politics- i.e. I’d rather advocate for a cause than work for a specific party or official. My long-term goal is to shift into social work so I was also hoping to find something that would offer potential sponsorship for me to get my MSW. I hope this helps! If this is helpful, you can view that potential job as a “foot in the door” to long-term political or advocacy jobs. I work in government affairs and many of my coworkers/lobbyists I know started out as political staffers.

    5. anongineer*

      From a former fed that quit after three months, if you currently have a civil service position and you are in your one year probationary period, I STRONGLY urge you to get that one year under your belt so that you qualify for reinstatement/rehire for a period of time (I think it’s three years) after leaving federal service. IF the new opportunity doesn’t work out or there’s a recession, it’ll be much easier for you to get hired into another fed job. I did not realize what I had given up until it was too late. I totally get the dread and the desire to jump ship, but if you stick it out the safety net will be there for breaking out to try more risky paths. Also, if you stick it out for 9 more months you can grow and even bigger safety net.

    6. Jessi*

      Is this job worth it to you enough to take on a part time job to cover lattes? I’m thinking a Saturday shift at Starbucks, bar shift Friday night, babysitting ect ? That would probably be what I would do personally. Or save every single penny you can tuck away now to use as a bit of a safety net once your income goes down

  50. Mid*

    A rather light hearted question, but still work related: Can you wear dresses and skirts without tights/hose if you don’t shave your legs (and your leg hair is fairly dark and obvious)?

    FWIW, my office is business casual-ish. More on the formal side of business casual for my area (so dark jeans are okay with a blazer and a blouse/button down, work dresses are fine, not full suits unless we’re meeting with clients.)

    (Also I wouldn’t say this is a gendered thing, since I never see my male colleagues leg hair, because they always wear pants.)

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I think this comes down to your own personal preference, but I know that my dark leg hair stops me from doing this unless it’s a maxi length skirt/dress.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same (except that I don’t have dark leg hair and I still don’t personally enjoy having it visible).

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’m currently in a knee length pencil skirt without tights, and I haven’t shaved my legs in several years. No one has ever said anything negative, and I dress otherwise professionally.

      But I also work at an academic library, and academia is usually pretty lenient with stuff like this. You might test it out on a day where you know you won’t meet with any clients and see what happens, but I don’t think anyone will notice or care.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Okay, but if you do this, don’t assume no one notices/cares just because they don’t say anything. People can find this unprofessional but never mention it. And as She’s One Crazy Diamond said, it would be nice if it didn’t matter, but at many offices, it will.

      2. Mid*

        Well, I ended up testing it today because I ripped my tights beyond repair.

        I don’t really think anyone in my office will notice. I think I’m just self conscious more than anything. Even though I’m fine wearing shorts with my unshaven legs outside of the office. I think it’s just years of being taught that it’s Just Not Done Like That.

      3. Aardvark Anonymous*

        I know several women at my academic library who will sometimes wear skirts with bare, unshaven legs. I occasionally join them too! but my leg hair is pretty light. My library is somewhat casual even compared to other academic libraries in this area… my standard work uniform is jeans, t shirt and a flannel. So at my workplace, I would say it’s a non-issue.

        I would be more hesitant at any place where blazers and button downs are more common, unfortunately. :(

        1. What's with Today, today?*

          Nesting fail. That should have gone under the OP’s question. It’s just a full-stop no for me. I wouldn’t say anything to you, but I would notice and never be able to forget.

          2. INeedANap*

            Genuine question – how come? Is it so wildly out of place in your workplace culture that it would leave a significant impression on you?

            I’m coming from a pretty liberal, academic environment where unshaven legs would be unremarkable, so just trying to understand this perspective.

            1. valentine*

              Is it so wildly out of place in your workplace culture that it would leave a significant impression on you?
              The risk is that people will judge (silently or not) and silently hurt Mid’s career because of it. There’s no hair-based equality with men, just like they don’t have to wear bras even if they jiggle. If you weren’t here for the pantyhose debacle, you may want to dip a tow into that post. I’m sure there are still people who think women should wear a slip with every skirt/dress.

            2. Avasarala*

              In my (more conservative) workplace experience, it would be very remarkable. I would not say anything, and once I did see someone in an adjacent job in a skirt suit and unshaven legs. It’s like coming to work with sopping wet hair or an unkempt beard–it’s like you missed a step of your grooming process. If it’s a more casual office I guess anything goes though.

    4. Catsaber*

      I’ve done that many times – though the shortest skirt I wear hits just under my knees, but I also do it with ankle pants. Most days I just can’t be arsed to shave). My leg hair is dark, and darkest on my ankles. I’m not sure anyone even noticed. I never caught anyone looking at my legs. I have had people compliment my shoes, but nothing was ever said about the leg hair, or lingering glances on them. And I had some extremely hairy legs during my third trimester a couple summers ago, because my giant baby belly prevented me from even reaching my legs…but I was not about to wear hose or heavy pants, because I was pregnant in a Texas summer. This would probably be a non-issue with my clients because I always wear full-length pants as part of a suit or more formal look. So I’d say…whatever is your preference.

    6. Washi*

      I think it really depends on the office. I worked somewhere once with a pretty liberal hippie vibe, and it would have been totally fine there. My past office was more traditional and most of my coworkers were in their 50s-60s, and after I heard them whispering about a young woman wearing a knee-length skirt and boots with bare legs, I definitely made sure I was on the conservative end of dress.

    7. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I used to solve this problem by wearing knee-high socks with my skirts and dresses. I bought a bunch of stripey socks at a Renaissance Faire and coordinated them with my tops, and also bought some black soccer socks for a more subdued look (I found a brand that had the logo on the foot rather than the leg). Soccer socks in general are a pretty good way to get roomy-in-the-calf socks that go up to your knees in a variety of colors and that hold up well.

      I wouldn’t be upset if someone else had bare legs and didn’t shave, but every time I try I hear all of the lectures from my mother growing up in my head and decide not to. (In recent years, I’ve given up wearing skirts and dresses pretty much entirely for unrelated reasons.)

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Gold Toe would fit the bill. (I’m wearing a pair of them in crew height right now.)

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Umbro. I found them by just going to a sporting goods store with a large soccer section and checking all the different brands until I found one that was plain on the legs.

      2. Margali*

        > Soccer socks in general are a pretty good way to get roomy-in-the-calf socks that go up to your knees in a variety of colors and that hold up well.
        THANK YOU for this! I’ve never been able to find knee socks that fit, and I never thought of looking at soccer socks!

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          You’re welcome! I have “medium” feet in athletic/hiking socks, which means that socks that only come in “men’s” and “women’s” sizes usually don’t fit me very well. (Heel on men’s is up too high, heel on women’s is down too low, and I have fairly large calves for women’s socks as well.) Once I realized that hiking and athletic socks come in 3 or 4 “adult” sizes instead of just 2 I started buying pretty much all of my socks from either REI or sporting goods stores.

    8. Orange You Glad*

      I’m so glad you asked this question because I stopped shaving my legs a few months ago and I’m trying to determine my upcoming summer work wardrobe and wondered the exact same thing!

      Side note: I’m still weirded out a bit that my lower leg hair is SO dark compared to my upper leg hair? I’ve been shaving my full legs for the past 20 years and this growing them out experience has been full of surprises!

    9. LKW*

      While I would love to say “You do you” – some industries, especially on the corporate side, will not be as gracious. Do the women in your office typically wear heels, makeup, stockings, etc? Is there someone you think would try to find whether pantyhose or tights are required?

      Personally – I don’t care. If someone wants to wear a skirt, as long as it’s not so short your bare cheeks are on the desk chair, I say go for it.

    10. Policy Wonk*

      My Department is very conservative, so it would not be acceptable. No one would say anything, but it would be a mark against you.

    11. Jennifer Thneed*

      It’s gendered. Men are physically capable of wearing skirts but the culture frowns on it — because they are MEN. You know this is true because when men DO wear skirts, they have special names: kilts. Utili-kilts. Etc.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          That is, in fact, exactly my point. Men can wear a specific type of skirt, but they can’t wear “skirts” as a general category.

    12. Llama Wrangler*

      I do this; I think my work is probably about the same level of casual-ness as yours. No one has ever said anything, and I know I’m considered a high performer so I don’t think it is majorly impacting my performance at my job, but I am sure people notice, and probably some of them are weirded out by it. (My partner has noticed people noticing, and once someone sitting next to me on an airplane was visibly disgusted).

      For me, this is a small way to manifest my queer identity is a relatively mainstream office space (not that the only reason you’d not shave your legs and wear dresses is to be queer).

      However, I will say I am much more mindful of this when I’m going on interviews — more likely to wear pants or dark color tights — because I do think it could impact people’s perception of me in the hiring process (just like I wear slightly more makeup than my usual minimal makeup). And I feel okay with “closeting” this part of myself when I interview.

    13. Fikly*

      Well, I do. But that’s because I think the standard that women should not have body hair is stupid, and I am lucky enough to work in a place where that doesn’t count against me. Also, my company is a) quite liberal and b) 85% women.

      So know your workplace.

    14. Retail not Retail*

      I’d admire you but I’m a hairy legged woman in an outdoor job in the south.

      My mom was like oh people might say something and I said if they do it’s harassment. No one has said anything – execs, my boss, coworkers, guests.

      If you don’t make a big deal they won’t.

  51. This Guy*

    How long is long enough after an interview to “follow” the company on LinkedIn? I’m probably overthinking this, and the interview team probably wouldn’t even notice. I had an in-person interview around Thanksgiving. I haven’t heard back from them, and I’m pretty sure I didn’t get the position. (OK, since I’m at a job I really enjoy now, and this was a unique opportunity I just had to find out more about.) But the company does interesting work, so I’d like to keep tabs on them.

    I guess I just wanted a gut check that following the company on LinkedIn didn’t make me look creepy.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      It doesn’t look creepy. The person getting the notification (if anyone even does) probably wasn’t a part of the team you talked to. Just go follow them!

    2. Lynx*

      Company pages can’t see who the individual followers are! They can just see the follower numbers go up and down for the page.

      Unless you have your settings on private, individual people may be able to see if you’ve looked at their LinkedIn, but I’d probably consider that a positive, as it shows you’re doing research on the company.

  52. Watry*

    We have had an empty position for five months now, and we were already minimally staffed (local government). There are excellent reasons for the delay over the usual three month time, so there’s not a whole lot we can do.

    Any suggestions for mental tricks to help deal with the increased workload? Leaving is NOT an option, and my coworkers and I have expressed our concerns, but again, there are really good reasons for the delay.

    1. Cleopatra*

      Daily to-do lists!

      Well, you can also spend less time on the less important stuff.

      And ask for a raise!

      1. Watry*

        We just got our first raise in over four years (3 or 4%, and not everyone got it), so that’s not happening. :( Boss and Grandboss are fighting for us to be reclassified, though, which would come with a title bump and raise.

        And all of our stuff has legally-mandated turnaround times, so we’ve dropped what we can, and we’re cross-training the Official Llama Wranglers in our Llama Grooming Compliance procedures for walk-ins, so we don’t have to handle 100% of the customer service anymore (for some reason we’re customer service/reception/listed phone number for the entire Llama Department, including phones).

        The to-do lists are helping, though! They are the best. Sounds like I may just have to push through.

    2. Holy Moley*

      I personally feel that morale plays a big role in how I approach things when work is bonkers. Good music (reggae Fridays are a thing lol), snacks to share with the team, making sure everyone gets out of the office for lunch/breaks to get some fresh air. Make a bingo card for stupid things people say in your area or funny things that always happen.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Are there any small changes to your work/work environment that you can ask for? Like lowering the dress code or leaving an hour early on Fridays or anything? I think it would be reasonable to say

      “Since I know there are good reasons for the delay and we can’t be rewarded with XYZ for the increased workload, can we have ABC” where ABC is some pretty small thing that is irritating.

      And if you get a no, I think you can say something like “We are all happy to buckle down and power through the increase, but it is tricky because of BLAH, is there some way that can be acknowledged”

      1. Watry*

        Any changes to uniform, hours, or stuff that’s covered by departmental policy has to be approved by my Greatx3 Grandboss. It’s taken six months to get new uniform shirt colors approved, and it still hasn’t happened yet.

        We’re kind of stuck between our legal requirements and the hierarchical nature of our job/department, so I’m trying to focus on my own mental state for now. The last thing I want is burnout over a job that is not worth burning out over.

  53. NotAPirate*

    Planner question! Do you still use a paper/physical calendar? I got some weird looks pulling one out in a meeting. But I feel weirder pulling out my phone mid conversation (especially because then I have all my emails and notifications distracting me). I use the digital calendar at work for meetings but like having a hard copy of my life. Also, then I can fill in things while talking on my phone.

    1. Cleopatra*

      I used to use a physical agenda (last year), and noone thought it was strange !

      I do not find physical calendars weird. On the contrary, it’s quite endearing :)

    2. Montresaur*

      I love using pen and paper whenever possible. I use Stickies and a phone calendar to keep track of meeting times and hard deadlines, but I always take notes by hand. I find it fixes important details in my mind, and I actually end up referring to the handwritten notes less often because I remember more of what was said. I agree that pulling out the phone can be distracting.

      I also keep a daily / weekly handwritten log of tasks I’ve accomplished for work, and am thinking of switching to a physical calendar this year.

    3. Mid*

      I use one! I custom make my pages as I have to track billable hours along with other tasks, and I use a ring binder system. No one has ever thought it was strange, only cool and efficient.

    5. AppleStan*

      I am admittedly a planner addict, so you have to take this with a grain of salt.

      I have a “large” planner that has monthly and weekly pages in it that stays at home…that is where all of my true ‘planning’ of my life happens.

      I have a “small” planner that is a daily planner…only covers about 90 days. However, each day covers 2 pages (one side is your actual schedule, the other side is for notes), and I whip that puppy out A LOT during the day. It’s a lot more portable than the large planner.

      Once a week, everything that has changed in my planners goes into my computer so that it syncs with my phone. Without actual audible alerts, I won’t ever remember that I had an appointment.

      So the sum is I use a combination of both, but have no issues whipping out my physical calendar in public. If anyone wants to give you weird looks, tell them they are more than welcome to pay for an assistant to follow you around and keep your calendar, LOL.

    6. CTT*

      I did while in law school but don’t now; my sister always gives me one of those Shutterfly calendars for Christmas, so that + my electronic work calendar that syncs with my phone give me enough coverage. I considered getting a paper planner this year, but that felt like overload.

    7. Constance Lloyd*

      I have a physical agenda (think: in the style of the original, sparse bullet journal, not the fancy pinterest bullet journal) that I use for myself, and I copy everything into my outlook calendar for the sake of my coworkers and manager. If it was just me I wouldn’t bother with a digital calendar.

    8. Bubbles*

      I use both. Cross-referencing really helps me remember. I try to put it in the physical planner first then move to either my cell phone calendar which is my personal calendar or my laptop for work or both if needed.

      1. hermit crab*

        Same! My paper calendar has all the meetings from my Outlook calendar plus any important stuff from my household’s Google calendar. I find that working to keep them consistent helps me feel more on top of stuff. I like to color-code, too. :)

        I used to use a desk calendar (like the one you get free in the mail from a charity you donated to once, years ago, and you feel bad that they are still sending you paper mail…) but started using a smaller monthly calendar in 2019. Being able to bring it with me when traveling is a big plus! The one I like is the “Paper Bag Monthly Booklet” from Paper Source.

    9. AL (the other one)*

      I use a kind of ugly bullet journal method in notebooks. I used to use daily planners but found the fixed spaces amounts annoying… I sync with outlook as much a possible and try to use one note for projects…

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve tried them, and I end up not ever filling them out. There are so many cute ones and they’re cool, and I used to use a little datebook way back in the day, but I guess I’m just too dependent on the computer now. I like that it will cross-reference for me; i.e., Google Calendar updates on my phone and I don’t have to remember to do it.

      However, I do sometimes post reminders to myself in sticky-note form on the edges of my monitor if I’m having trouble remembering to do something or I need to grab someone as they go by.

    11. Llama Wrangler*

      I think it depends a bit on workplace culture — when I worked in a setting with clients who weren’t allowed to have phones, everyone did everything on paper calendars. Then I worked somewhere where everyone had a work android + google suite and people looked at you weirdly if you did something other than use google calendar immediately. Now I’m in a place where a people use a mix — I prefer to use an online calendar but a paper notebook/ to-do list; I *try* to leave my phone face down during meetings and only use it when I’m scheduling something.

    12. Jennifer Thneed*

      Did you get weird looks, or just looks? We’re very visual animals and tend to look at motion of any kind.

      (In any case Real Studies(tm) show that people remember hand-written notes better than typed notes. So rock on with your paper-plannering self! And I’m with you, fwiw.)

    13. Red Fraggle*

      I *have* to use a paper planner. My brain cannot function with a phone calendar. Out of sight, out of mind, and I forget everything. Lots of people work that way and anyone who gives you a funny look can go jump in a very cold lake.

      I am trying out one of those endlessly-reusable Rocketbooks right now, just for kicks/to save paper. But that’s still writing things down with a pen, so same principle.

    14. Rainy*

      I use a paper planner (Passion Planner), my Outlook calendar, my gcal, and our scheduling software.

      Not ideal, but sadly necessary for my life.

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Just started using a paper journal this year (thanks to AAM commenter suggestions) and it’s a great tool for keeping me focused.
      Oversized wall calendar at work & at home. I text myself things that need to be put on either of them when I don’t have access.

    17. bunniferous*

      Ha! I just bought one a few days ago. My husband just got diagnosed with a chronic condition which means lots of doctor appointments plus we have to weigh him daily (!) since we have to monitor him for water retention. I was managing my work stuff ok online but having a planner for everything that I can just pull out and look at is going to help with that overwhelmed feeling I have at the moment. Plus I work so much with technology for my job sometimes it is just a relief not to add one more thing to my online life.

  54. Calathea*

    TLDR at the bottom as this is quite lengthy.

    I received my Q4 performance review yesterday and was rated a 3 (meets expectations) in all 5 categories. So you’d think I’d receive a 3 overall, right? Wrong! I was rated a 2 overall (needs improvement). How does that make any sense?

    I suspect that I’m being pushed out of my job. My manager has been consistently hard on me over the past three quarters, and every small mistake (like not catching a typo someone else made in an internal document) I make is blown way out of proportion and it’s starting to affect my mental health. I’ve long struggled with depression and anxiety and this situation is really exacerbating my mental health issues.

    Every month we have a meeting (everyone in the company, not just me) where my boss goes through a list of errors and issues with my work, and nothing is too small to mention. My work has a process in place where those above me in the hierarchy have to send weekly feedback (typically negative because most are too busy to type up feedback for every positive and neutral little thing, and this is tied to their performance review and bonus so they have to do it) to the managers of staff who worked on their projects, which my boss collates and prints out to read to me verbatim. In effect these monthly meetings consist of my boss reading off a list of petty grievances and small errors that occured up to a month prior and have been solved or were never a real problem. This is all supposedly for our development but makes people feel awful. My manager in particular seems to expect 100% accuracy at all times and anything less is a disgrace. I just want to point out here that employees in other departments actually make major errors with negative impact on profits, but they don’t seem to be raked over the coals for it – this seems like an issue specific to my department/manager.

    In fact, it’s just been announced that employees in my role now also have to give weekly feedback (it feels like tattling) via spreadsheet to my boss on everyone we collaborate with, so I can only assume this will lead to an even more negative work environment. Things are already tense, with high turnover over the last year and constant changes to job descriptions and processes – my job description has totally changed twice since I was hired a year and a half ago. I wouldn’t have taken this job if it had the current job description.

    After a couple of projects I worked on where the co-worker I was assisting didn’t like how I did something (we had different writing styles, matters of personal preference with designs etc.) my manager decided to place me on an “informal performance improvement plan” for Q4 where I had to meet with her every other week to discuss any issues that came up, but honestly there weren’t really any problems with my work during the quarter and the meetings were uneventful. I was stressed out but feeling confident that I had proved myself competent.

    So imagine my surprise to be rated a 2 overall after being rated a 3 in each category and being told that she had noted my improvement! I asked her to explain the rationale behind the score and she said that because I was on the “informal performance improvement plan” I was getting a 2. It doesn’t make sense to me because the issues that lead to me being put on the improvement plan weren’t that big of a deal and happened in like, May or June and I have since proved myself in those areas, and didn’t really apply to my work over Q4. It just feels really unfair and literally doesn’t add up. Did I mention scores are tied to bonuses? I have improved by the expectations laid out to me, so why am I being punished?

    I’m beginning to suspect management has been putting together a paper trail against me so they can claim I’m not competent at my job and get rid of me, as we aren’t in the US and it’s harder to fire employees here. In fact, my manager told me that we will continue our frequent meetings until the end of the month at which point she’ll decide whether or not I need to be put on a “formal improvement plan”. I honestly don’t know what more I can do, as I’m doing my job without mistakes and the colleagues that I collaborate with are happy with my work and no one else seems to have any issues with me. I stay late, cover for people when they are out, volunteer to do others work to help them and basically bust my butt, but it feels like I’m criticized no matter what. Nothing I do seems to be good enough, and I’m terribly anxious all the time.

    My husband thinks I should formally contest the performance review and that this might be considered bullying, but I don’t know what I would even say. We don’t have HR as it’s a small company. There’s a grievance process that would involve me filing a written complaint with my manager and then having a meeting with her and grandboss where I would say, what, exactly? Accuse them of trying to push me out? I can’t imagine that would help matters. He also says if I get fired I should take it to a tribubal but that sounds exhausting. I’m not from this country so I’m not sure how that would even work. Should I just quit? I feel completely demoralized and demotivated and I really don’t know what to do. What if I really am useless and will fail at my next job too? This really has me shaken.

    TLDR; Was rated a 2 overall even though I was scored a 3 in all categories during my performance review. I feel like my boss is never happy with me no matter what I do, and I think she is trying to build a case to fire me. What should I do?

    2. StellaBella*

      Yikes. I agree with your husband here and would take this to the grandboss as you don’t have HR. In the request to speak to your grandboss, to arm yourself, can you take in your job description (if you had one), and the review, and all of the other notes. from meetings where the boss nitpicked you? Then show how you improved in the areas you noted – bring in concrete facts and instances and see what they say. Also, not sure I would mention bullying but if the boss does not do this to everyone consistently, just you, then yes it is bullying. Don’t resign. If they do fire you, I would go to see the tribunal or the prudhomme or a lawyer and just ask for advice on unfair dismissal and if you have recourse – esp if you have talked to grandboss about it all, too. Since you are not from the country too – can you get into a union or something to assist you?

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I think anytime you feel you are being pushed out of your job, start looking ASAP for a new job. Your boss seems pretty set on keeping you on a performance plan (despite actual improvements) until enough documentation is compiled – the fact that you’re doing better might only prolong things, not turn anything around.

      I’m sorry, that sounds totally demoralizing. Also, when a similar thing happened to me (noted good to excellent performance for over a decade, suddenly overall rating in the lowest bracket without clear explanation) I was laid off two months later so it was absolutely positioning me to be easily cut.

    4. Holy Moley*

      Not knowing what country you are in an “informal performance improvement plan” is a huge red flag to me. It does sound like the purpose of her “informal” meetings and reviews are to create a paper trail to put you on the formal PIP and then submit a request to fire you. Where I work, you cannot be given a 2 unless you are already on a PIP. Especially if you have been meeting standards. Your husband is right that you should contest it. 3’s do NOT equal a 2.

      Are other employees treated this way or just you?

    5. Enginear*

      That doesn’t make sense at all. How does 3 all across the board give you an overall of 2? That’s ridiculous.

      1. NW Mossy*

        I’ve seen it happen when the company overall has a problem with how ratings are distributed across their staff.

        For example, a lot of companies use a process called “forced distribution” for ratings – Microsoft, most famously. The basic idea is that the company’s guidance to leaders is something like “15% of people should get the top rating, 75% a middle rating, and 10% a bottom rating.” It’s intended to ensure that managers critically evaluate their people and distinguish between how they perform, rather than simply giving everyone 5s (or 1s, for that matter).

        That said, a manager’s individual decision is rarely the final word on that story. If the overall distribution in a department or division is skewed, senior leaders will start reaching down into their organizations and say “hey, managers, we’re not meeting the corporate guidance – you need to decide which X people will go from a 3 to a 2.” If the manager who ultimately makes that bump isn’t paying attention, you see just what the OP sees – an overall rating that doesn’t align with their category ratings.

        The OP’s situation reads to me like one where her own boss is getting pressure to identify who’s in the bottom on her team and actively performance manage those people. The mechanisms that the OP describes are clumsy and ineffective (public feedback, critical feedback only, unfiltered peer feedback, etc.), but sadly not atypical from managers who don’t know how to coach effectively. My question back to the OP is to set the rating aside for a second and spend some time thinking about whether or not this is the kind of manager they want to work for long-term.

        1. Calathea*

          Hi, thanks for replying. I’ve heard of that as well but I think it’s unlikely because my company is so small (about 35 people) but you could be on to something when you say she could be under pressure to performance manage. That’s one reason I’m hesitant to go above her to grandboss, because surely grandboss already knows and signed off on the score? To answer your last question, no, I don’t think she’s a good fit for me at all. She is new to management (1 year) and seems to be trying too hard.

          1. M*

            Limited chance her grandboss doesn’t know – and if they don’t, they’re unlikely to care.

            I worked at a place that did things like this for about 9 months. Mostly, it happened because the senior management had massively unrealistic assessments of how awesome they were, so when new staff came in, looked at the projects they were running on a wing and a prayer, and said things like “ooh, I feel like we could improve X”, they got defensive and pushed those people out. It was also self-perpetuating – middle management knew senior management was like that, so were massively defensive of their own work, and did all of this kind of stuff largely because they were terrified of someone bursting senior management’s bubble about how good various programs they ran were, because they knew senior management would blame *them*.

            When things inevitably went wrong with projects in ways senior management couldn’t ignore, it would get even worse, because then middle management would be desperate to scapegoat someone.

            Not saying you’re experiencing something exactly the same, but if any of this rings true to you: you cannot stop this cycle, get out. They will not fix it, because everyone involved has a massive incentive to pretend it isn’t happening.

        2. CM*

          Sidebar — FWIW, I think it can make sense to grade people on a curve if that helps decide who gets a bigger raise when there are limited funds or whatever. But I think a lot of companies confuse the issue by mixing the curve grading with something that looks more like objective pass/fail grading. Whether someone met the basic expectations of their job is a totally different question from whether they were in the top 50% of performers overall, but a lot of places treat it like the same thing.

    6. RC Rascal*

      I have been in this system and beat the system, the PIP, and my manager’s attempt to push me out the door. I am in the US so my experience may be of limited help, but here it is:

      How are you ranked versus your peers? How is your work quality vs peers? How are your peers being treated for similar mistakes? How different are you from your peers in terms of age, gender, education, and ethnicity?

      If you are being treated worse than your peers for the same behaviors/errors, you may be able to make a discrimination case against them. In the US a women can file discrimination charges against another woman, which is what happened in my case. (My boss had given me a “Needs Improvement” on my performance review by .02 of a point, after not evaluating most of my work for the year.)

      Definitely follow the grievance process if you think it is justified. Not that it will necessarily get things changed ,but because it gives you a leg to stand on if you need to hire an attorney and fight. You will need to demonstrate that you have done everything in your power to take accountability for your performance issues and have attempted to advocate for yourself.

      My sister in law is an employment attorney (defense); she was able to offer guidance and get me in with the best plaintiff’s employment attorney in our city. Once I had legal counsel my performance miraculously improved overnight. Also, my boss went to further and further attempts to try to gin up evidence against me. It got so ridiculous it became really obvious what was going on. Company legal department ended up backing me against my boss and HR.

      1. RC Rascal*

        Just to add–one of the things that came out of my legal action was that we discovered my Boss and HR had colluded to actually put me on a Secret PIP that I had no knowledge of. Yup. A Secret PIP. From that experience I learned there is no limit to the dirty actions some supervisors and employers will take. They could easily be doing something like that to you.

        Learn your rights, assert your rights, consult a lawyer. The faster you do these things the more options you have an the more change you have of negotiating an outcome that is better for you and helps you manage your career.

      2. Calathea*

        Thanks for replying. I think my boss prefers my coworkers, and I definitely think she latches on to ant mistakes I make much more than she does with them. She is more pleasant and quicker to smile at one male direct report, and her other direct report in my role was her younger brother, so….yeah. I talked about this with my coworker today and he thought the review score was completely ridiculous and thinks I should go to our grandboss and complain and ask to report to a different manager. Also, I’m a white American female and everyone else at the company is white English.

    7. CM*

      Who is in charge of the performance evaluation process overall? If you don’t have HR, is there another employee who’s responsible for standardizing it or monitoring it? Your boss’ boss? The CEO/ED?

      I think the fact that 3+3+3 doesn’t average out to 2 is pretty solid, and lets you open the door to talking to whoever’s in charge of this about why it doesn’t make sense to you. The way I’d frame it is that the math doesn’t add up and, when you asked your boss about it, you didn’t get a satisfactory answer.

      The arguments I think would help are that: a) if the performance plan was informal, why is it counting toward a formal evaluation? b) if your performance suffered because you were on the plan, such that you ranked as a 2 overall, ought that not to be reflected in one of your other scores? If your performance was good enough that it didn’t affect your scores on any of the relevant measures, what was the purpose of being on the plan?

      Just be super calm and pretend that the only thing you care about is getting a logical explanation for the scoring system. The hope is that, in discussing this with someone, you will indirectly call their attention to a) your supervisor’s abusive supervision techniques, and b) the fact that the evaluation system doesn’t make sense.

      HOWEVER. Your supervisor uses abusive supervision techniques and, if the rest of the office isn’t horrified by that, it’s not likely to change. If nothing good happens after you bring this to someone’s attention, this is one of those situations where I’d consider myself already fired and stop caring whether pushback soured my relationship with my abusive boss.

  55. AppleStan*

    More of a rant than anything else.

    You may or may not remember my issues with my direct boss, Jamie, and his assistant, Cersei. Cersei supervised all of the assistants, including mine, Sansa. Yes, this was a huge cluster. Two months ago, all of the assistants were reallocated from Cersei to the two office managers, including myself, to allow Cersei time to focus on some major projects that had stalled for two years. These projects were her responsibility but it was just impossible for her to accomplish.

    Cersei left to take another position closer to home, Jamie has declared he no longer wants an assistant. Ok fine.

    Jamie has decided to turn those projects over to me and the other manager in our office. Jamie has also decided to turn over some of the duties that Jamie used to do because Jamie has decided to relocate to another office, so physically won’t be here to do them, even though these are literally part of Jamie’s job description. Again…those go to me and the other manager. In addition, since Jamie has decided he no longer wants to have an assistant, all of the “office manager” duties that the assistant used to do now fall to me or the other manager (mostly me because the other manager is having HUGE personnel issues that are taking up his time, rightfully so).

    All of the “reassigned” duties are to the point where others outside of our department are asking…so what does Jamie actually DO? And I have nothing to say to that, so I change the subject.

    So now on top of the increased daily duties and project duties, I now have a 33% increase in the number of people that I supervise, yet my pay remains the same as others with my title who have lesser duties and who supervise literally 1/2 the people I do.

    I am just very very very very very…I don’t know what I am. But my pay definitely needs to be increased to reflect what is going on here. Unfortunately….I’m a government worker…and they literally will not pay people more than anyone else who has the same job classification. Which makes NO sense, but there you go.

    Luckily I have a vacation coming up that I’m definitely looking forward to. So there’s that!

      1. AppleStan*

        As I learned when we tried to create a position for Sansa (which caused Cersei to fly into a rage), creating or classifying a position is extremely difficult at best, and damn near impossible, at worst. Part of the issue is that truthfully my duties aren’t that much different from what all of the managers have, EXCEPT for the extra that has been dumped on me. And once we write those additional duties into the job description, those duties will STAY in the description…and you basically have a manager doing entry-level work. You’re going to have a very difficult time finding people to apply for this job when they are advertising for PhDs (as an example) whose job duties will include ordering supplies.

        And this would have to be a creation of a new title, because under the current layout you have basically managers, then directors, then CEO. There are no “multiple levels” of management (e.g., Manager I, Manager II, etc.).

        I honestly suspect that the bigwigs are just riding Jamie out until his retirement next year, but who knows? It’s an election year here, so I’m not sure they want to deal with anything time consuming like personnel if they don’t absolutely have to.

      2. ForOneDollar*

        Assuming this is federal government, changes to the position description are initiated by management, large scale position management reviews, or, depending on the agency’s policy, desk audits requested by the employee. However, volume of work or number of employees doesn’t impact the classification. Supervisory positions are graded based on 6 factors, but those aren’t included.

        1. AppleStan*

          State government, not federal, but I’m pretty sure the principle for classification is the same. Unfortunately, there is no range of pay for the positions, which means there’s no way to financially reward someone for extra work.

  56. Anonymous llams wrangler*

    I manage a staff member who is causing problems around attending training on communication skills and constructive working relationships and of course they are one of the reasons why the training was set up in the first place. For example doing things like not really speaking to other members of staff but in a subtle way, hanging out with one person in a way that looks uncomfortable to other people who are ignored. A second session on team communication was set up after a first and she claimed to have a medical appointment at the same time. I said that as the training was already rearranged she would need to rearrange the appointment if possible, but time off for this was never requested again. Then after the session I got the feedback that she had turned up 25 minutes late (although it started half an hour after she normally starts work and I can find no evidence of problems on her train line on that day) and walked out three minutes from the end saying how stressful she finds things like this. The event was getting people to write ideas for better communication on post its and activities like this so I feel like her reaction may be because she probably knows the real purpose is to try to manage unprofessional behaviour in the office in specific people (not just her). I should have raised the issues before but I work in an environment where unprofessional behaviour like storming out of meetings is pretty normal and I know that in the past this staff member didn’t get on with her earlier line manager so she asked for someone else to manage her and they agreed to this! Working in an environment like this where things like this are tolerated it’s hard to know how to deal with weirdness because everything is a little weird. I came out of a super toxic job where I had to ignore much worse behaviour so I feel I have let things slip but would welcome any advice on how to deal.

    1. WellRed*

      From what you’ve written here, it doesn’t sound like you are managing her. It sounds like you are hesitating to be clear and direct with her about the problems you are seeing (instead of creating training sessions). Also, she doesn’t have to agree to do what you ask (such as attending the training), she needs to do it. It’s part of her job.

      “Then after the session I got the feedback that she had turned up 25 minutes late (although it started half an hour after she normally starts work and I can find no evidence of problems on her train line on that day).”

      The above is what I mean. Why are you wasting time looking for problems on the train line??????? Why not ask her what happened?
      Are you a new manager? Does she intimidate you in some way?

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep, agreed. This isn’t about figuring out “how to deal,” it’s about being clear about your expectations of your employee, and going directly to her with feedback and questions rather than arranging trainings (!?!) to obliquely address her communication problems. Decide what you want her to do, instruct her accordingly, and hold her accountable for following through on those instructions.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Take her supposed motivations and potential reactions out of it and talk to her as a manager to an employee. She is required to attend the full training, and missing X amount means she needs to retake the training. It might be good for you to attend as well. Training shouldn’t be punishment aimed at a few bad actors. If it’s worthwhile at all, it’s worthwhile for everyone. If (when) she reacts poorly, manage that like any other employee refusing to do their job – write-ups, PIP, firing. If she requests another transfer and it’s granted, that’s not really your problem to handle or prevent.

      Bigger picture, if your company culture allows for storming out if someone disagrees with something or problem employees to be shuffled around rather than managed out, that is not a good place to work. Your previous job may have been much worse, but this environment doesn’t sound non-toxic either.

    3. CM*

      FWIW, I think it can be okay to transfer someone to another team if there’s friction with the manager — it really depends on the circumstances.

      I think, rather than focusing on whether or not you think her reaction to the training is valid, and whether she’s lying to you, you need to have a conversation where you come out and say honestly that you thought she would benefit from the training, because you’ve noticed a pattern of X,Y,Z that you’re concerned about, and you apologize for not being forthright about that before the training happened.

      And then treat it like a problem-solving exercise. Go into the conversation with a clear idea of the positive behaviour you want to see her do (so, don’t say, “I need you to stop doing X, Y, and Z” say, “I need you to start doing A, B, and C”), articulate that desire, and listen to the response. Work together to come up with a plan for how that can happen and set up a schedule for when you’ll evaluate whether or not it’s happening — at your next check-in, or at the performance review, or whatever makes sense.

      If she says she has anxiety, take that completely at face value and try to make accommodations. If the issue really is anxiety, the accommodations will help solve the problem, which is what you want. If it’s not really anxiety, the accommodations will help to clarify the situation, because you’ll have a plan that she agreed to and either does or doesn’t follow up with.

      HOWEVER. I used to manage people in a toxic, unprofessional environment, and I always cut them some slack for acting like assholes. If everyone else is doing it, and it’s endemic in the culture, it’s not super fair to expect that the people reporting to you are held to a higher standard. At that point, you’re basically tying their hands behind their backs while their coworkers try to punch them.

  57. AJ*

    I don’t want my company to have my checking account number! A couple months ago my company changed purchasing systems as a part of a merger. The big company has declared that they have to have my checking account information for me to keep a purchasing card, and they have to have it to even pay off the card. Obviously I’m concerned about privacy and controls of this system since there is no written policy and the reason for needing it keeps changing (so we can charge for accidental personal charges/ so we can reimburse for travel?). So how do I push back against this?

    1. Zona the Great*

      “For obvious reasons, I’m not willing to provide company with my account number and further have it tied to a system for payment of said card that I’m not personally responsible for. It is also concerning that there is no recourse for me or for the company due to lack of clear policies and control. It makes more sense for the company to set up a dedicated account, owned by company, for payment of these P cards.”

      I wouldn’t budge. Good luck.

    2. MissGirl*

      Every company that does direct deposit has their employees banking information. You can try to push back but this is so ubiquitous, it might throw their system for a loop.

      1. AJ*

        They claim that purchasing can’t talk to payroll. Any time I’ve needed a reimbursement its come as a paper check or payroll deposit. Its the uncontrolled access to WITHDRAW that’s concerning…

        1. Natalie*

          That’s probably true. Payroll isn’t keeping your checking account number on a scrap of paper, it’s loaded into their payroll system and encrypted. Expense reimbursements/personal charges are probably handled by an entirely different piece of software that cannot pull the encrypted account information from the payroll software.

          It’s fine if you don’t want to authorize them to deduct from your account, but be aware that the likely result of that is going to be that you can’t have a purchasing card.

      2. AJ*

        Agree but every time I’ve needed reimbursement it has come by a paper check or direct deposit. My concern here is the uncontrolled access to WITHDRAW, ie empty my checking account without my authorization or knowledge!

    3. Tiffany In Houston*

      Can you open another checking account strictly for this purpose. Perhaps one with an online bank like Ally??

        1. Auto Generated Anon*

          This sounds shady to me. Are you in the US? There are laws to protect employees who get direct deposit from their employer pulling $ out of their account without express written permission. If you don’t get may answers today, this might be a good one for Allison to promote to a post.

          1. valentine*

            Had this idea too if pushing back doesn’t work. :)
            Don’t do it. I feel like there must be some legalities here that would hurt you. What if someone embezzles to fund their equestrian pursuits? The bank could just require the company to have the money in a company account before authorizing charges.

          2. Natalie*

            You would agree to it as part of the purchasing card agreement. If you don’t want to give them that access, then you can’t have access to a purchasing card.

            Purchasing cards *aren’t* credit cards, they’re charge accounts (like old-school Amex). The balance has to be paid every billing cycle. I believe they’re more common in government and non-profit, and as a result it’s pretty typical to provide your account information so that any personal expenses on the card can be pulled from your checking. The cash stewardship rules of the organization generally don’t allow for any risk of floating or writing off an employee’s personal expenses.

            1. AJ*

              Ok, this is helpful. So how do you suggest the employer reassure employees that this won’t be abused?! One data breach or typo or over-zealous accounting tech and our monthly expenses are gone.

              1. Natalie*

                I think that kind of trust is generated from your relationship with your employer. Do they have a history of generally doing things correctly? Do they react quickly to mistakes with employee pay or reimbursements and take them seriously? And regarding data breaches, the purchasing card system is almost certainly being managed by a large bank, not directly by your internal finance department. (It’s also worth noting that most direct deposit agreements give them the right to withdraw from your account to correct mistakes, and your bank pretty much takes their word for it. So if you’re comfortable with them having your account information for payroll because “they can’t” withdraw money, that’s a false sense of security.)

                All that said, if it really makes you uncomfortable and can’t decline to use the purchasing card, your best option is opening a secondary account and just keeping a little money there in case of accidental personal charges.

    4. Another Lawyer*

      Just to clarify, do they want to use your bank account to tie it to the company credit card? If so that makes no sense. If it’s a company card it should be tied to a company account. If it’s a personal card, you should submit your expenses and get reimbursed, and the company wouldn’t need your account info.

      1. AJ*

        In order to keep the company credit card they basically are asking for an assurance of a personal account. I also didn’t mention that there are fines for the company not paying the credit card in time and our fear is that the checking account will be used to pay these fines too!

        1. Another Lawyer*

          That’s not normal, and I definitely wouldn’t give them your bank account info.

          As someone mentioned above they may already have it for direct deposit. But presumably they’d be asking you to agree that they can withdraw money, and not just deposit it, for those credit card charges, and I would not agree to that.

          It sounds like maybe they don’t trust their employees not to make personal charges, and want some way to force the employees to pay if they do charge non-work items. But in that case those employees shouldn’t have company cards.

    5. HBJ*

      Umm, they can’t just take money out of your account with just the number. That’s not how it works!

      I currently have my landlord’s account number and have had multiple previous landlord’s account numbers so I can deposit rent straight into the account. We gave our account # to our last landlord so they could deposit our security deposit because we weren’t there to grab a check.

      I can’t use those numbers to pull money from their account. I would need to have their card and PIN to pull money from an ATM or ID that matches the authorized people on the account.

  58. Spaceball One*

    When an employee is creating some issues or doing sub-par work, obvs it is a kindness to let them know how they and their work are being perceived and what the expectations are. However, when the employee doesn’t take the news well – disagrees with it, feels persecuted, comes up with rationalizations/justifications, etc. – what is the ideal response from a manager or lead? And how should a manager or lead frame this, mentally, so as not to softpedal the response in the face of pushback from the employee? (In this situation, the employee’s rationalizations and theories of persecution are incorrect; the complaints are legitimate.)

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Jocko Willink has great advice on this in his book, Extreme Ownership. Basically you avoid putting people on the defensive by taking ownership from the start – and really meaning it. No, you aren’t taking ownership for them not being good, but you are taking ownership for failing to explain the “why” to them or for failing to support them in the way they need. Instead of assuming they’re doing a bad job because they’re incompetent or don’t care, assume its a miscommunication and this is a conversation to resolve it.

      Instead of “Bill, you suck at getting TPS reports out on time” you would say something like “Bill, I see that I’ve failed as a manager to express to you the importance of TPS reports, so I’m going to try to explain it now. You see, TPS reports are an essential part of the way we do business because xyz. So, when they aren’t completed on time, this is how it negatively impacts our business. Given what you know now, how can I better support you in getting these out in time?”

      When you phrase it like that, there’s no reason for the employee to feel persecuted or act defensive, because you haven’t accused them of anything. But you still get across the message that there’s a gap to acceptability loud and clear.

      If they say they don’t need any help and then the behavior continues, you can raise your frustration tone but keep the messaging the same. “Bill, when we talked last time, I tried my best to explain the importance of timely TPS reporting, and yet since then I’ve observed 3 instanced of lateness. I must have failed to impress that this is critical to your continued employment. Is that clear now? Is there anything you’re still unclear on here? How can I support you in making this change?”

      1. Veronica Mars*

        An essential key to pulling this off is to believe that it REALLY IS your failure as a manager that has led to the issue, and genuinely be open to the idea that you need to make changes too. You aren’t manipulating or pandering or soft pedaling – you’re just focusing on solving the problem instead of assigning blame.

    2. Working with professionals*

      “Never the less, you will do x,y,z or you will stop doing m,n,o.” Delivered in a neutral tone. If the problems continue, another meeting and “you were given explicit instructions to do/not do x,y,z/m,n,o and you are still doing/not doing these things. Following instructions is a key component of your job. If you continue as you are, you will not be able to keep this job. Can you follow the directions you’ve been given or should we discuss your transition out?” Or whatever the next step in your company’s PIP policy might be. Basically, their feelings about the items discussed are not part of the solution, so “never the less” they will comply. Always a neutral tone and always following company policy for performance problems.

    3. Lana Kane*

      You manage the performance regardless. I usually start by thinking about whether I have provided the employee the correct training. If I feel like training could have been better, I set that up and manage performance from there. If there are specific legitimate complaints, pull a couple and walk through them with the person so that they can explain their particular “defense”. Or, perhaps there are processes in place that need to be looked at again. Always start out with an open mind that it’s may not be the person, it could be the circumstances.

      If this isn’t the case (say, you’ve already looked into the above) my script would be something like, “I am hearing that you don’t agree with my feedback. We’ve discussed your concerns before, and I have addressed them, but the issues aren’t improving.” At that point I’d start a PIP, and start considering that this person may not be right for the role. If the PIP is fair and truly aimed at monitoring their performance and working with them to improve, then this will either result in 1) employee improves, or 2) you can start looking at letting them go, or perhaps facilitating a transfer to an area they are better suited for.

    4. Noticeable as me*

      “I hear you. However the results I need from you for you to remain in your position are X, Y and Z. If you have a different way to achieve that than what I mentioned I’m open to discuss that. But the final result must be XYZ.” You’re looking for outcomes, even if those outcomes are personality or interaction related. Explanations of why things happened the way they did in the past and how people are complaining about them can sometimes be helpful to clarify WHY you need the changes, but you still need the changes to happen to achieve the specific results you list.

    5. NW Mossy*

      I’ve had good success with a going-forward/future-oriented framework – something like “can you commit to doing this differently in the future?” or “going forward, I expect X and Y from you.” Then, just continue to repeat that in response to each deflection, explanation, argument, etc. in the same words and tone. It sounds a bit like a stonewall, but that’s exactly what you want here – this isn’t a debate and your feedback is not a movable object, so there’s nothing to be gained by continuing to fight it. The only real decision for the employee is “am I willing and able to change?”

    7. Fikly*

      Their take doesn’t really matter. The thing that matters is your view – you are setting the standard and evaluating them. You can say, I understand that you disagree, but regardless, I need you do to x to y standard.

  59. New Job!*

    After what feels like an eternity of job hunting, I finally have an offer for a company that I’m really excited to work for! I gave my notice yesterday, but does anyone have any tips for how to leave your team in the best possible position once you’re gone? For context, even though I’m at the bottom of the hierarchy for my current team, I’ve been here the longest, and I have a lot of random knowledge about things that might be valuable to the team after I’m gone, but some of it I’m just not sure how to put into words.

    1. Sergeant Fixalot*

      It would be a great time to start writing a clear handover e-mail on the work you are currently doing, and (with your boss’s approval) who would be either continuing the work or who can be the guardian of the information after you leave. If your company has a central server, upload the work you done onto it and include the links to these files, along with descriptions in your handover e-mail.

      This would save the tons of calls after when your colleagues realise you are the only one who knows where the files were

      1. New Job!*

        I’ve started compiling a list of everything I’m currently working on and documenting processes for all of it. The other two ladies on my team know where everything is saved, so I’m not worried about that. We’re in marketing, so it’s more that they may not know which vendor prints what collateral for us or just historic knowledge about different events we’ve held in the past.

    2. Veronica Mars*

      When a coworker left last year, they compiled a “book of random knowledge” with all kinds of helpful tidbits and a rough index. We were just able to search the word document by phrases when we needed to find something. Of course, its tough because sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. But if you categorize it by the activity you’re performing it should be useful.

      1. New Job!*

        That’s a really good idea! I already have a big document with steps on how to do random different things (our boss, who has since left the company, needed a lot of hand holding, so I just stared copying and pasting the instructions I would leave for her when I was getting ready to go on PTO into a document) so I may include random tidbits in there. Thank you!

  60. Murphy*

    I feel like folks here will appreciate this. The other day while at work, I went to the bathroom and when I got back to my shared office I smelled the most overpowering flowery perfume. I smelled it on and off for a while, and it was really strong. Normally I don’t smell anything, so this was highly unusual. Our office is near my director’s office so I thought maybe someone was in with here and left a lingering scent in the hallway, but it went on for so long and no one else was saying anything, which was surprising.

    I’m sure you could see where this is going. It was me. When I was in the bathroom I used some of the lotion that someone had left in there on my wintery dry hands and apparently didn’t smell anything until I came back to my office. I figured it out when I tried to use it again later in the day and smelled it immediately. I washed my hands again so the smell went away that time. I’m glad I didn’t say anything to anyone, because I was the perfumey culprit the whole time!

    1. Not All*

      Someone left the stinkiest, nastiest hand lotion in one of the womens restrooms in my last office. People had a tendency to bring in ones they bought/were gifted & didn’t like rather than throwing them out. I eventually stealthily threw out that particular bottle…you could smell it all the way down the hallway & multiple people had commented about the smell!

      I have a tendency to bring in a Costco-sized Lubriderm or similar & leave it on the counter in there for everyone this time of year.

    2. Llellayena*

      Scented soaps in our bathroom. I’m occasionally sniffing around a half hour later going “who’s got the fruit basket?”

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I just use my own lotion; when my hand eczema is flaring up, the scented ones burn like fire. Some of the cheaper ones also smell nice in the bottle but the scent degrades and then they smell weird or gross later.

      If you used the original cherry-almond Jergens, however, I’d follow you around for the rest of the day. I love that scent.

      2. Windchime*

        I love it, too, but I stopped using it at work years ago because the guy who sat across from me would make comments about the scent. I thought he was politely saying that it bothered him, so I decided to err on the side of caution and stop using it. But I’ve got bottles of it all over at home.

    5. Red Fraggle*

      Oh noooooo! Haha!

      By the way: Corn Huskers is my favorite. It has no smell and doesn’t leave residue on your keyboard/mouse, so as long as no one is allergic to corn products you’re golden.

    6. Fikly*

      Hah, that reminds me of an incident that somehow got me in trouble with HR due to a vindictive person who was higher up in the food chain (though not my supervisor).

      This person brought in some hand lotion, and was sharing it around, and was highly offended when I declined. Now, I declined because I have allergens that are often in hand cream, and if it goes on my hand, and then touches food, I react. I told her this politely, and we all work in health care. Yet she was super angry because apparently it was a personal offense.

  61. JustaTech*

    Resources needed!
    I’m doing my first ever technology transfer and manufacturing site inspections and I could *really* use some resources on what to expect and industry best practices.
    Does anyone have any suggestions of webinars or classes or even just articles on how to conduct a site evaluation? Preferably pharma-focused, but honestly any manufacturing would be a good starting point. Every time I’ve searched I keep getting things like “how to pick an electronic medical record system” which is 100% not what I’m looking for.

    (Everyone who did our last technology transfer/Contract Manufacturing site evaluation has left the company and as usual, didn’t leave great notes. I swear I will leave better documentation.)

    Thanks!

    1. AJ*

      Don’t know specific sections but I’m in medical devices (IVD) and all our regulations come from the code of federal regulations 21CFR part 820 so that might be a good start. Otherwise I’d suggest developing a tech transfer plan- ie you run it at there shop, run it at your shop and compare results for whatever that looks like. For inspections I would recommend a checklist that everyone agrees on at first (maybe some clinical trial site set-up examples might help here?). Good luck!

    2. Veronica Mars*

      Look at ASQ. They have specific auditor classes. Honestly I’m surprised they don’t require you to be an ASQ certified auditor for a pharma company.
      But it should have all the levels you’re looking for – from a helpful brief how-to articles, to multiple week long courses.

      Another thing that helps it to define your “target condition” – what does the happy place look like? And then next to it write your “Measures of success”. You’re evaluating against measures of success, but the target condition helps provide a reference and ‘common sense’ guide behind what you are evaluating.

      1. JustaTech*

        That’s very helpful! I don’t have to be certified because I’m not Quality (for which everyone is grateful), I’m the technical expert (ha). So I’m not going to look at things like Quality systems (because unless they’re written on a whiteboard I’ll just nod and go “ok, I guess”).

        It’s things like warehouse segregation (I think that’s important?) and how to not have someone pull the wool over my eyes about if their facility really is as good as it looks. It doesn’t help that, while I am the technical expert, I’ve never actually *seen* the process for making this specific thing. So I’m out of my depth and I’m not sure *how* out of my depth I am.

          1. JustaTech*

            Train nothing, I want them to go with us! At some point someone will remember that there should be a Quality person on this team (maybe even two, QA and QC) and hoo boy are they going to be irked at not having been included earlier.

            I did finally read the supplier audit guide and it at least has a nice long list of “things to look at”. Now I just have to figure out what sections they’re going to dump on me and how to evaluate those things.

            I’m starting to think that the whole audit thing is “drink lots of coffee, ask a bazillion questions, take notes ’til your fingers fall off”. I’m just worried about missing something because I don’t know what to look for.

            1. Veronica Mars*

              In my experience, the best auditors are really like FBI interrogators. Just looking for weaknesses. Not in a “we are sending you to prison” way, in a “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” way but still. Don’t focus on notes and paperwork. Focus on forming really clear understandings of processes, and where they aren’t as stable as they should be. If something doesn’t seem quite right, it probably isn’t. Poke at them. If you can’t seem to grasp a complete understanding of the process, its probably because no one telling you about it does either.

        2. Veronica Mars*

          I do think you’re going to struggle for exactly that situation, but hopefully a quality friend (like AJ suggested) or ASQ can help you apply general audit formatting to your use case. But it really comes down to “what do you do when x happens?” “Oh, really, can you show me an example?” And just pulling the thread all the way down.

          You might also get a lot out of benchmarking resources, like APQC, because it sounds like this more be learning good practices instead of ensuring they have specific things. In particular, what comes to mind is that APQC has giant lists of things that companies should be doing broken up by bigger themes like “design product” “make product” “store product” etc etc that might help you go in with a list of things to look for.

          1. Veronica Mars*

            That wasn’t English. By “I do think you’ll struggle” I meant “to find resources for that specific use case.”

  62. Justin*

    I had the interview Monday and I thought it went well. That’s always hard, the time when you wonder if your instincts that it impressed are right or not.

    Yesterday they asked me back for round two in two weeks. Getting harder to get off work for these things, but whatever, it’s very exciting.

    1. WearingManyHats*

      I feel you! I’ve had a lot of interviews recently and have been down to the final two and haven’t gotten the roles. This means I’ve used up dental appointments, physicals, leak in roof excuses. To top it off, I ACTUALLY had a cold and couldn’t work! What are you saying?

      1. Justin*

        The first one I said, truthfully, that we needed to visit our birth hospital. We did that… after my interview.

        This one, doctor, because I rarely go.

        If I don’t get this job, I’m not applying for a long while. But a third interview would be hard. Seems like I am interviewing with some serious higher ups though.

          1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            I’m imagining this as some kind of pilgrimage now. “In my culture, when a person reaches the age of 40 years, they travel on foot back to the hospital of their birth, where they stay a week in a special wing reflecting on where they’ve been in life and where they’re going next. As I was born in Anchorage, I’m going to need about 6 months off for this – is there a form I should fill out?”

    2. Windchime*

      Congrats! I hope it goes well. Yeah, I had a lot of “dentist appointments” when I was looking for a new job.

  63. Asmodeus-ish*

    An interesting interaction this week: an older man in my small office jokes with me sometimes about “hearing me coming” in the hallway when my shoes click on the floor. I’m a younger female. I almost always joke along with him. This week, he heard me coming and announced that I was a “high heel hussy” – he clearly thought it was a joke, but YIKES. He’s retiring in a few months so I decided the drama of addressing it wasn’t worth it. Good times.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Gross. I’m so sorry! I have a colleague in another department who refers to women as “birds” and “chicks”. He is retiring in May and I cannot wait! I think he thinks it’s cool but it’s gross. He’s about 70.

    3. Mr. Shark*

      Yes, Yikes, but it sounds like simply him being out-of-touch, with no real malice attached to it (especially the word “hussy”).

    4. Orange You Glad*

      I’ve had good results with a puzzled tone (if you can’t fake a pleasant curious expression, this probably won’t work) and asking, “[Name], you said the other day that I’m a “high heeled hussy” and I think we define that word differently? When I hear “hussy” I think “whore” but I think you meant “fancy woman”? It would be better to avoid that word in the workplace moving forward because enough people define it differently that it might come across offensively even though I know that’s not your intention?”

      (Yes, this is a lot of apologetic softening language but as a younger woman it’s worked for me on older men who are peers or above me in the hierarchy. If it’s an older man under me in the hierarchy, I phrase things more directly.)

  64. Just a Manager*

    Bonuses
    I know I should be grateful that my company gives substantial yearly bonuses but I really hate the process (or lack of).
    As a manager, I recommend bonus amounts for people on the team. We’re not given any set criteria to use. It’s basically just picking a number. I work really hard to look at performance throughout the whole year. I don’t know what other managers do. At my level, no one knows what other teams get or their criteria.
    Also with my own bonus, it’s such a guessing game as to what I’ll receive. Even though I got a good amount last year and had (I think) an even better year this year I have no idea what the number will be. I can’t do any financial planning for this year until I find out.
    Just venting. Anyone else have the same issue, any thoughts on how I can broach this with the organization?

    1. KayDeeAye*

      Ohhhhhh, there really should be actual criteria using, you know, actual quantifiable information. ANYthing else is just a recipe for a big ol’ inequitable mess that will result in some people getting more than they deserve and some getting less than they deserve – and the rest suspecting that they fit into one of these two categories. Some of the criteria can be tied to company goals (sales or whatever), but it’s a really great thing if at least some of them are things many of the employees can actually impact.

    2. Indy Dem*

      That seems – weird, I guess works – to me. Our department is given a budget for bonuses, then each manager gets a portion of that, based on the number of their direct reports, divvies it up based on reviews.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If the bonuses are automatic regardless of performance — which it sort of sounds like — could you base them on a percentage of their salary or just be equal on the amount? Or if you’re given a budget of X amount of money for bonuses, you figure out a percentage that correlates to their contribution to the department. I.e. You’re given $30,000 to allocate to bonuses: Bob accounts for 30% of sales or production, Jane 35%, Fergus 10%, and Joe 25%. I imagine that the company doesn’t give hard guidelines because not all departments are going to be able to quantify their employees this way. I’m not sure how to broach this for the whole org, but I would broach this with your boss about how she determines your bonus. I never do any advanced planning for a bonus; just treat it as though it’s found money when it shows up or have a percentage formula for what to do with it no matter the actual amount: 20% into a cash savings, 10% fun money, 40% invested in a short-term/accessible way, and 30% into long-term/retirement investments or something like that.

      1. Just a Manager*

        The bonuses are supposed to be for exceptional individual effort. No other criteria is given except whether we’ve had a very good, good or not so good year financially. You can see where it gets really subjective.

    4. Chaordic One*

      At my former nonprofit workplace we received annual bonuses based on whether or not there was any money left over at the end of the fiscal year. It was kind of like “profit-sharing” only being a nonprofit they couldn’t call it that. Instead they called it a “gain-share” bonus. The amount of the bonus was usually something like 3% of your annual salary during the fiscal year.

      There were all sorts of conditions as to why certain people were and were not eligible to receive one. People who started work more than halfway into the fiscal year were ineligible and that was always when the employer began their major hiring push. People who worked the whole fiscal year but who left the organization before the bonuses were paid out some 3 or 4 months later were also ineligible.)

      They didn’t really take performance into consideration. (It was a toxic workplace where the standards and measures of performance were n0t good indicators of actual work performed, and rewards were based more on personal relationships.) I was fired the day before they were to be handed out and didn’t receive one.

  65. Tale as old as time*

    So here’s a #MeToo question for you all. Luckily it is minor.

    I am a 30 yr old woman in a field that is majority male. I am excellent at my job and was recently promoted. I am generally unruffled by male ego and have mentors and allies in the field.

    I work for Company A and partner regularly with Company B, which is much smaller. I see the CEO, 60s-ish of Company B maybe 3 times a year at big events (one was Tuesday). Every time we meet, he greets me by kissing me on the cheek. Because no one else in the industry does this, I always forget he is going to do this until he does. I step back startled but have let him do it bc he doesn’t seem to notice that I’m startled and we are surrounded by other important people. I have no idea if he does this to other women bc there are rarely other women in the room. He is otherwise professional.

    I want this to stop. I mentioned it to my director on Wed for the first time and she was upset on my behalf but says it’s up to me what I want to do and she will support me, including talking to him if wanted. I don’t know. I don’t know what will work and I want this to go away. Antagonizing him is a problem.

    What do you think?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      You’re allowed to enforce personal boundaries. Just keep it upbeat and phrase it as a “you thing” – “Oh my! I’m sorry, I am really sensitive to people near my face so can I ask that we keep it to a handshake?” [said with a smile/chuckle].
      You’re doing that to allow him to save face, not because you actually owe him an apology.

      That said, I’m guessing this is a “him culturally” thing and not a “putting you in your place” thing. Some people, for whatever insane reason, have an ingrained habit of greeting females with a cheek kiss. Its not meant to be offensive. You’re still allowed to be offended by it, of course. But assume that he’s coming into it with good intentions, or more likely not even thinking about it at all. So, knowing that, its also ok to decide that this is not a hill to die on. Its not your job to teach this guy 21st century greeting rituals.

      1. valentine*

        Its not meant to be offensive.
        Neither is a lot of harassment.

        But assume that he’s coming into it with good intentions, or more likely not even thinking about it at all.
        There are no good intentions for this kind of gendered touching. He’s thinking about it enough not to kiss men, and what group is taught to keep quiet and do what old men want?

        Let your manager rein him in for you. She doesn’t have to name you. She can say she’s heard he kisses female employees and he needs to stop.

        2. Fikly*

          My take on his behavior would differ depending on if he greets only the OP this way, all women this way, or everyone this way, regardless of gender.

          But whatever the answer, OP should absolutely enforce a no kissing boundary!

    2. Kathenus*

      Although I’m usually one to recommend handling things directly, in this case I think taking your director up on the offer to speak with him might be the most effective course of action. She could do it outside of any of these events so that 1) it doesn’t happen again, 2) he can get the needed message in a more private environment, and 3) you are not put in the position of having to act/react – especially in a group situation – to someone with the strong power disparity between you and a CEO. Benefit too that if he hears and gets the message, hopefully he will think about how he might react to other women in similar situations and change his behavior there too if needed. Good luck.

    3. Mr. Shark*

      Is he from a different country? In Mexico, for example, it’s fairly common for men/women to kiss each other on the cheek, whereas men/men just hug, but that is typically for special occasions/greetings. I’m just wondering if there’s something else involved.
      But obviously, if you don’t want that contact, which is perfectly understandable, you definitely could follow the language VM gave you above.

    4. Anono-me*

      Eew, people who ‘physical affection’ too much.

      Have you tried the enthusiastic double handshake? When you see a too huggy/kissy person coming, as soon as they get close, take both their hands in yours. Then while holding their hands, enthusiastically greet them and gently shake their hands a bit for emphasis. (Your hands and arms will be in a position similar to what they would be if you were riding a scooter.) Once the greeting is done step back and reposition yourself so as to make a hug or kiss physically awkward for the other person to initiate.

      No matter what the reason for it, this is inappropriate behavior and you are right to stop at on so many levels. In addition to your own personal discomfort with this misbehavior. It also sends a message that you are to be seen as a woman instead of being viewed as a professional in your field.

      If you do decide to speak to this man, I do suggest you consider why he is doing this so as to tailor your conversation more effectively.

  66. What's with Today, today?*

    I went to cover a county commission meeting this week and was saying hello to one of the commissioners. He leaned over and kissed me right on the cheek (I’m a Female, 38). It didn’t bother me, he’s one of my favorite people but it did shock the hell out of me.

    I live in the south and still get honey, baby, Darlin, and sweety ALL the time. To other women out there, do you still deal with this stuff?

    I’m in management and the News Director for three radio stations, not a junior-level employee if that matters.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Ugh. Former Southern woman here, and while there are things I miss about my hometown (mainly the food) that is not one of them. I can’t say I ever got a kiss on the cheek (pretty sure I would have remembered that) but the honey, baby, Darlin’, sweetie, and (my “favorite”) boo are all too familiar.

    2. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Not to condone workplace violence but tbh I probably would’ve slapped him. But I just really don’t like people touching me at all, even people I know well and like.

      It could be a regional/cultural thing, since I’m not in the south and never get any of those pet names (thank goodness, my eyes couldn’t handle being rolled that many times in a day). I do get ma’am a lot which makes me feel a lot older than my 30’s, but is still respectful and doesn’t bother me.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        I wish it was only old men, lol. I called our chief deputy last week, and he, having seen on Caller ID who was calling, answered the phone (add appropriate Texas drawl here) “Hey, baby, how are you today?” He’s younger than me. And he honestly didn’t mean anything inappropriate about it. Mind boggling.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          I call them Sugar in a tone that says they’re my grandchild. I’m not going to fix the culture of Southern endearments, but I’m not going to let it establish a hierarchy.

          1. Anono-me*

            Yes to this. I am not southern enough to pull off the ‘Sugar /grandchild’. But I do use absolutely ridiculous pet names in response to being called sweetie Etc. If you don’t want to publicly be called “Pookey bear sugar woogums” in an abrasive falsetto, then don’t call me darlin’.

      1. Ain't Miss Behavin'*

        Looks like they were both typing their questions at almost exactly the same time. Funny coincidence!

        1. Third or Nothing!*

          Heh, I’ve refreshed some pages here before and found like 50 new comments all at once. Nice to see a thriving community.

    5. Close Bracket*

      I got “honeyed” at work ONCE in Texas, and I responded with, “Sure thing, darlin’.” The guy never did it again.

  67. TheNewbie*

    First week in my new job.
    So far I’ve managed to log into my computer, not get lost in the building, and catch up on the entire AAM archive.
    I still don’t have access to a few of the systems I need (requests are in just pending approval) so I can’t really look at anything yet. The person who is supposed to be doing a lot of my training has been working from home most of the time and only coming in for meetings. Another task I am supposed to be taking over, the person who currently does it won’t send (or show me where) any of the files from prior months for me to look at until after a meeting they set up and have now moved 3 times.
    Hoping for some great questions in the open thread since I was just informed that about half of my team takes half days on Friday. Not comfortable leaving early since I randomly get grabbed to tag along to a meeting that I might be involved with at some point (or to get familiar with the building and corp structure). I know they are in a busy time post holiday’s but I thought I’d get something to do other than download apps in the first week.

    1. Betterlatethannever*

      I feel you – this is super common and can feel really demoralizing, especially when friends/loved ones want to hear how your awesome new job is going!

    2. Veronica Mars*

      Starting new jobs is my least favorite for exactly this reason. Itll probably take a solid month to have your days filled, and another 2 to feel ‘productive’. Its worse at big companies.

    3. LKW*

      If you have a company intranet – go search. Look at the org charts. See how the company is organized. Save links to Tech Support, Training, HR, timesheets, etc. Learn the locations of the other sites. See what’s happening. You probably have ethics and compliance training already assigned. See what’s on the menu for next week in the cafeteria.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I make myself a floor plan of the office and list who sits where, as a job aid to help myself remember names.

        If they don’t have org charts, and if you can find out and have the time, you might create some yourself.

  68. Hank*

    Should I re-apply for the same job which I just had a phone screen with almost three months ago?

    I had a phone screen with a company doing a similar role back in October. The screener told me it was a small team of eight people and that they were hiring because they were in a bind due to recently hiring a person who just disappeared and never came back. She said she was looking for someone to start fairly quickly and, when she asked me how soon I could start, I told her that I preferred to give two weeks to my current employer. She said she would pass it onto the HM, but I never heard anything. I assumed they needed someone who could start ASAP.

    However, the same job was just re-posted on Indeed yesterday. Should I apply again or would it be a waste of time? And if I do apply, should I do it via Indeed again, or instead reach out to the HR screener via an -email and inquire that way? Thanks for your feedback.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It would be a waste of time to re-apply, as it’s likely that it’s just refreshing automatically. If you do want the job still, reach out to the HR screener via email, explaining that you saw the ad was re-posted and that you are still interested in the position. Attach your application packet again.

      1. RC Rascal*

        This is good advice. I have seen this go both ways. How long has it been from when you were screened to when the role reposted?

        If it has been more than 90 days, it is possible they hired someone who didn’t work out and have re-scoped the role, or held the scope but re-evaluated the priorities of the skills they are seeking. I have been successful at re-interviewing for a role where I was originally declined early in the interview process. However, a year had passed by and their recruiter contacted me for the second interview process. What happened was originally they wanted someone with deep knowledge of area A and some skills in area B. Person who met that profile was not successful. The second time they went looking for deep skills in area B with some knowledge of area A. That was a better fit for me and I was a finalist the second time.

  69. Salary Question*

    I’ve been asking my manager about salary transparency, inspired by AAM. My manager said, “We don’t do salary transparency, but we do let folks know where they are on the salary band when we give out the annual salary adjustments/raises.”

    Great. Fast forward a few weeks and we have our salary discussion. I say, “Thanks, I appreciate the adjustment. Could you tell me where that puts me in the salary band?”

    My manager responds, “Well, HR is researching the salary bands, so I’m not sure anymore.”

    Am I paranoid to think this is really odd? We just discussed how we’re supposed to know where we are in the salary band and now my manager is dodging the question.

    1. Eng*

      I don’t know that it’s odd, but it’s certainly very frustrating and would leave a bad taste in my mouth. Just seems to be unfortunately common.

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t read it as odd, as I’ve worked at places that do reviews of their salary structures, so if they are indeed doing that right now it could be a 100% factual response. If you repeatedly can’t get this information in the future (i.e. six months/a year from now they say the same thing) then I’d be concerned it’s a dodge, but right now if I was told that I’d assume positive intent/honesty and check back in later on it.

    4. Fikly*

      That to me says they don’t actually have salary bands, and are trying to make ones up retroactively. But I am perhaps cynical.

  70. Savannnah*

    Been courting an academic medical center for 2+ years now and am 5 months into an interview process. So far I’ve had 2 phone screens, 4 interviews with leadership, the managers and staff and now I’m going back in for a summary interview (?) with my potential manager and they are requesting 3 more references than the 4 I’ve already provided. Did I also mention that the specific job posting was written off my resume? They are the only game in town so here I am but it’s just been so many hoops and so much waiting. Wooof guys.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t know if you want to risk it, but I think you’d be well within your rights to push back on at least the extra references. That seems beyond excessive, but my typical experience is 1-2 phone screens and 1 (usually half day) in-person interview, references rarely requested. You’ve already done more than twice that AND they’ve checked references already.

  71. Sergeant Fixalot*

    Is it weird that I am currently a month into my new job and yet don’t have much to do? Like, I am talking, two days out of the week I will have NO work whatsoever. I am pretty sure it’s not laziness, because when assignments do come in, I dedicate all my attention to it, problem is that they usually can be finished in a day… then I am back to nothing.

    I know I know, it’s a pretty luxurious problem to have, but I am deeply afraid of being fired after my trial period because of this. I had mentioned to my boss that I am available for work three or four times, but I don’t want to continuously hound him. And because the company has a very rigid structure, I am not sure if I can offer my manpower to other team leads without stepping on some toes (Er, you belong in the teapot painting team, why are you asking me, the teacup team leader, for work?). Should I just try to self study in the meantime? Or are there other things I can do?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Self-study is good. Have you asked your manager if you could offer your help to other teams? Also, based on what you’re observing, do you see projects you could propose to your manager to take on? And what does your manager say in response to you being available/wanting more work? Have you asked whether work will pickup versus this is the norm?

    2. Holy Moley*

      I had this at my new job I started a few months ago! Lived in fear the first two months that I was going to get fired. (Found out later that the person I replaced spent a good portion of her day on the phone so yeah….. its ok). Sometimes my position is really busy and sometimes I need toothpicks to prop-up my eyelids. I did the same thing with asking for something to do and eventually got some minor busy work but nothing that was long term. I decided to ask for some training for my current job, posed it as a refresher and they let me do that (2 day course locally). So you can look around and try that. I also tried to read up on instructions and stuff but there is only so much you can do. You might casually ask team members if there is anything they need a hand with. Otherwise yeah, find something you can do to keep yourself entertained.

    3. Gidget*

      I was in the same position as you. I am almost a year into my position and I still have nothing to do most days. I think it’s legitimate to have another sitdown with your manager and indicate that you are looking for more to do or ask them for suggestions for your slow periods. You can ask if there are other teams you can be helping or specific trainings which would be helpful. They may not have anything for you to do except the few tasks they are giving you and they may be 100% okay with that.

  72. Masquerain*

    I’m having trouble putting effort into my work. I’m a grad student in a research lab that hasn’t published anything in 4 years (there are no undergrads here so it’s not a teaching-focused school, most of my PI/boss’s peers publish several times a year).

    I’m not a terrible student, and I kind of realized that even though I have coworkers that are (1) brilliant – this person can collaborate with anyone and is awesome at data analysis and (2) incredibly hard working – another person is easily here 100+ hours a week and very passionate – their projects haven’t been published on despite their talent and ethic. I feel like I can bust my butt or sit around on the phone all day and the outcome will be the same.

    I think my boss just holds publications back for some reason? The work done is never enough and he asks for more and more, but never publishes on it. All of our projects have become strange Frankensteins of disconnected assays and nobody has anything to show for it. It’s too late in the game for me to switch labs, but maybe someone has an idea on how to communicate my frustration and move forward.

    1. Potsie*

      I am a postdoc in a biomedical lab. Are your coworkers lab techs, grad students or potdocs? I know some PIs are slower to publish in general but do prioritize publishing their grad student’s work, so that would be something to ask about. Also, is your PI holding onto manuscripts or just data? The outcome might be different if you hand him a manuscript rather than waiting for him to say that you are ready to write it up.

      The first thing you should do is talk to him about the outline for your paper and what assays need to go into it. If the paper is planned out and you simply need to plug in the assays it can be a great way to keep you motivated and organized as well as hold him to actually submitting it to a journal. The outline will change as you get data that was unexpected but it is still a good way to provide structure and goals for your project and not get sidetracked.

      Second, it isn’t necessarily too late to switch labs. It is a major step that you don’t want to take lightly, but if it becomes obvious that he is not going to help you graduate on time, you absolutely should leave ASAP. I had friends who switched labs in their fourth year. It happens.

      If you don’t want to switch labs completely but feel like he is not providing the support you need, you could look into either setting up a close collaboration with another lab or ask about potentially doing a co-PI situation. Having another PI involved could push the project forward instead of hoarding the data until it is perfect.

    2. Marion*

      The odds are that someone who isn’t publishing is someone who doesn’t have the clout or connections to get you a job when (IF) you ever finish. I suggest doing your best to tactfully move to another lab.

  73. Audrey Puffins*

    Low-key, low-stakes, more of a hypothetical than anything but: is there a professional way to say “please, I just want to go a single day without having to listen to a constant flow of your snot”?

    1. Another Millenial*

      Well, I imagine they would like to go a single day without having snot dribbling out of their nostrils, so I’m sure they’re trying.

    3. KayDeeAye*

      Yeah, no. Because it’s – as you know – not the person’s fault, and in any case, what exactly are they supposed to do? Wear nose plugs?

    4. TheNewbie*

      As someone battling a sinus infection my first week on the job…trust me, I would do ANYTHING to not have the constant flow of snot. I have a brand new box of tissues (over half gone), hand sanitizer, a couple larger paper towels for the coughing fits (sturdier than tissues so help block more), cough/throat drops, a massive water bottle, am taking every vitamin in my house, and (when possible) leaving my desk for cough and snot fits.
      I’m doing all I can but it just won’t stop!

    5. LKW*

      Ear plugs. Or if you’re feeling very aggressive, I suppose they could be nose plugs*.

      *I do not recommend shoving anything up your coworker’s nose.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      As someone who eats Claritin and Allegra like candy and who blows through tissues quicker than money, I can tell you there’s nothing much they or you can do.

  74. skedaddle*

    I am a PhD student in a STEM field who is considering leaving the program after I get my Master’s. I am also applying for summer internships in my field. Any tips on how to discuss my plans for the future with companies as I interview? I don’t want to misrepresent myself as having only ever been a Master’s student, but I also don’t want to give companies the impression that I really only care about academia when that is definitely not the case (but may be the stereotype of a PhD student).

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Two questions:
      1) Why are you thinking about leaving your PhD program? That’s what companies are going to want to know.

      2) Why are you worried about misrepresenting yourself as “only a Masters student”?

    2. CheeryO*

      Well, I think the companies might be more interested in your timeline than anything else. If you end up with a terminal Master’s, you’d presumably be available for a full-time position much sooner than if you go for the full PhD. Personally, I would probably lean toward presenting the situation honestly (“I’m currently a PhD student, but I’m very interested in the industry side of things and may actually decide to graduate with my Master’s in (year) so I can enter the workforce.”)

    3. Potsie*

      I think you are overthinking it. Just tell them you decided to take a terminal masters because you realized you are not interested in staying in academia. That is a very common story.

    4. Fikly*

      Is there a difference, in terms of what you will have learned, between being a student who enrolled in a masters program, and a student who enrolled in a PhD, but stopped after a masters? If no, then it’s not a misrepresentation.

  75. This is getting real depressing*

    I am just absolutely sinking at work. I have a full-time job as a Communications and Government Relations Specialist. We were going to hire an administrative person to help around the office. That position is no longer in the budget so my boss assigned me all of those duties. One of my coworkers, who was Director of Public Affairs, got a promotion, to Director of Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs, so now I am doing the things that no longer fall under his new job description (all of the communications). I asked my boss for a promotion to a higher title, not even for a pay raise, since I was doing the work of the Director of Public Affairs without the appropriate title and he told me I needed an “attitude adjustment.” I’m sorry to rant, I don’t even really think I am asking for advice. My job is just becoming a black hole for my life and I am working a ton and I cry almost everyday.

      1. This is getting real depressing*

        He told me that he along with the entire Board of Directors didn’t think I was deserving of any kind of promotion or raise and that he thought I needed a serious “attitude adjustment,” which he said 4 times during our meeting. He said that I wasn’t getting a promotion because I “bristled” at a project (he literally threw a box of notes from a meeting that happened before I started in my office one morning and told me to write a report, that is the project he was referring to)

        1. WellRed*

          Oh darn, you have a boss that doesn’t like you and will never advance you in any way. And that’s on top of having too heavy a workload. I know it sucks, but you have to start job searching.

          1. Potsie*

            Yeah. This does not sound like a fixable situation. Crying everyday because of work is a clear sign that the situation is untenable. That’s to the point that you may want to look into whether it would be possible financially for you to quit without having a job lined up.

        2. Working with professionals*

          I’m sorry you are going through this. Prioritize the items you have to do, do what you can in a normal number of hours per day and let the rest burst into flame. If there isn’t any visible evidence that the work is too much for one human being and there is no appreciation of your dedication, time to provide the 40 hours work for 40 hours pay and begin looking for a new job. Good Luck and be sure to take any time you have available for self care.

        3. WineNot*

          Run away. That is so discouraging to hear from a boss who is supposed to have at least SOME of your interests in mind. I’m sorry you’re stressed. Remind yourself this weekend that it is only a job, and that you can find another one eventually if you need to…but that your happiness and peace and mental and physical health is more important.

          1. This is getting real depressing*

            Luckily we are getting a huge snow storm this weekend so I will have lots of time to myself to reflect and decompress. I also may possibly rip out some old trim at home and paint (it is the best stress relieving activity). Little wine, movie night, potentially a blanket fort. I promise I am an adult, just a big fan of blanket forts.

    2. This is getting real depressing*

      Thanks everyone. I just really needed to rant. It has only been a couple of weeks of these expanded responsibilities and every night I go home after work and just lay in bed with my computer to do more work. He was being especially cruel again yesterday and I went to the parking garage and just sat in my car for a few minutes, fully ready to drive off and never come back. Unfortunately it is not financially possible for me to quit without having another job lined up, this job barely covers my expenses. I applied to a couple of jobs this week, but unfortunately there really aren’t many posted online that are related to political communications or lobbying right now so I might be stuck for a bit.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        You’re in a bad place – I think it’s reasonable to consider temping or some other short term option to get out of your situation while you continue to job search. You are the dumping ground for your boss’s bad attitude and all the work, and that’s not sustainable without a huge mental, possibly physical cost. Here’s hoping you have a relaxing weekend!

      2. Type 2*

        First of all, “attitude adjustment” is not a term to be used in the adult workplace from s manager to an employee. What an ass.

        Secondly, I’ve been on a non-profit Board of Directors where the EC was gaslighting employees and telling them that “the entire board” disliked them. All crap. Because who’s going to go to the Board and ask “do you like me?”

        Please get out because this is harming your self-esteem. Good luck!

    3. LKW*

      I’ve said this before – crying because of work is a really good sign that you need to move on.

      I’m infuriated on your behalf. Telling you that you need an attitude adjustment because you want recognition for the work that you’re doing isn’t asking too much. It’s time to put your needs first.

      1. Windchime*

        I agree with this, and wish I had known this a few years ago when I had a job that made me so upset and anxious that all I could do was cry. I wish that what I had done was just start looking about a year earlier than I had. Keep searching for something new and don’t let the bastards get you down.

  76. Spain: Cash or Charge*

    I have a business trip coming up in a few weeks – Barcelona and Madrid. We have a corporate charge card, American Express, which we’re supposed to use for all transactions when traveling. Looking online, I see that AmEx is not widely used in Spain – but I don’t really have space on my personal Visa for a long trip. I’m really getting worried. Money exchange fees aren’t reimbursable by my employer. Any suggestions, or information from people who have traveled to/work in/live in Spain would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.

    1. Rey*

      If you haven’t already, talk to your business travel or finance office today and specifically ask them about this scenario. “I’m traveling to Spain in a few weeks and I’m concerned that AmEx may not be widely accepted. What additional options do I have so I don’t have to deal with this while traveling in a foreign country?” Hopefully they’re reasonable enough to have some exception or policy that will help alleviate this problem.

      1. Combinatorialist*

        Yes, and this is a reasonable concern! I was in Madrid ten years ago (so things may have changed) and a friend I was running around with only had an Amex. He definitely had trouble with it not being accepted, so usually I would pay and he would reimburse me. The only place I remember accepting Amex was the T.G.I.Fridays

    2. LPUK*

      Yeah, you’ll have a lot of places that don’t take Amex across Europe… what I hear is that their merchant fees are significantly higher than other credit cards, so it’s quite common for smaller establishments to just not take it. Visa or Master are here… wait until you travel to Germany where some establishments don’t even take credit cards- that one caught me out more than once when I lived there for a couple of years

        1. Anonallama*

          STEM sub-fields have different cultures around this. Can you share a bit more – are you in something biomedical, something CS-y, something engineering?

    3. Kathenus*

      Also check and see if you can get a PIN to your card, I traveled in Europe a few years ago and found that I couldn’t use my credit card at many places without a PIN. In the US I only needed a PIN for cash back on debit cards so had never bothered to get one on my credit card. My business had to pay the expediting fee to get one fast tracked but I still had a few days of unease with not being able to use it, and I ended up having to use my personal debit card until it was resolved.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      You shouldn’t have to, but spend some time this weekend doing some research. What’s already covered/prebooked and what will you be spending money on?

      Is the hotel pre-paid? If not, does it accept Amex?
      What are your transport options/plans?
      Food, will you be hosting people, or will it be on your time?

      Spain is one of those countries where not everything is online, so that might make things more difficult.

    5. Expat*

      Any chance you could ask your company to give you a cash advance based on per diem rates for the days you’ll be there. I’m not US based but our company uses the State Dept per diem rates for the cash advances we get for business travel.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I think this is a good possibility. I know some people in my company didn’t have a company card, and so the company basically gave them a certain amount of money to cover their expenses. They still had to keep receipts and make sure they settled on the total afterwards (if there was any left over, they’d give it back, because it wasn’t per diem).

  77. relatively recent hire*

    I am 3 months into my new job after I left a trashfire ~4-5 months ago. The majority of my experience is in llama grooming but I knew I wasn’t super interested in a career of just llama grooming so I moved into llama washing at the trashfire job (a good amount of overlap, same field). Llama washing wasn’t my favorite thing either for a variety of reasons so in an effort to leave my trashfire job I found a job where my former llama grooming friend A works. The job is llama washer but at a much smaller place so there’s more expansion into other things that I’ve always wanted to try.

    Now, my friend A is leaving essentially because she had to deal with a lot of huge changes in the department and responsibility that kind of burned her out and she thought she would be able to negotiate more PTO/more $ but it didn’t work out for her. I will be taking on her llama grooming duties along with the llama washing I was hired for, which I’m honestly fine with as long as the workload is doable. Her take is that I should be gunning for more $/promotion right away since the org is kind of stuck with me since she’s leaving, but my feeling is that I need to have more successes/time at the org to understand both what I actually find most interesting about the job and what I’d be interested in continuing to do, and what I’d rather get rid of (though I have a few ideas already).

    I made more money at the trashfire job but I left it with nothing lined up because trashfire, and when I applied for this llama washing job it was actually llama washing coordinator and when they made me the offer they upped it to llama washing manager because of my experience (making my salary less than trashfire but more than my last llama grooming job), so while I do feel like I could be getting paid more (especially given the increase in job scope that I’m qualified to handle because of my background), I don’t feel urgently undervalued. I also haven’t had my 90 day review yet and while my boss is clearly grateful I’m here I haven’t received much feedback yet.

    My boss has made it clear that I’ll be taking on the llama grooming stuff for now, and evaluate in 6 months or sooner if there are issues that come up. I don’t want to miss out on opportunities to advocate for myself, but I also am conscious of how it didn’t work for my friend and also how I don’t really have anything to point to yet aside from my willingness and apparent ability to take on this additional work. Do I do anything to try and advocate for myself while I’m taking on this additional work? Or do I wait until I have results to show for my work?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Well, it doesn’t hurt to ask now. Its always a good idea to negotiate for a raise if your duties expand. It’s not about rewarding you for your past work, its about paying you adequately for the more intense job you have.

      One way you could approach it, is to ask for guaranteed raises if you accomplish certain things. So instead of a vague 6 month reevaluation, you could lay out clear objectives and a target salary bump if the objectives are met in 6 months time. Its a win-win for you and the company, because you aren’t counting on the company’s goodwill (especially after they KNOW you’ll do the work for less) and they aren’t forking out money unless they feel confident its worth it.

      Also don’t forget that it might not have worked out for your friend for many reasons its impossible for you to know. That doesn’t mean its not worth your effort to try. And, they’re going from 2 employees to 1, so it sounds like there’s more wiggle room in the budget now.

      1. relatively recent hire*

        Thank you! This is helpful framing. The budgeting issue according to my boss is a little weird for various reasons (I mean who knows, it probably always is) but you’re right that it doesn’t hurt to ask how things will work dependent on how I do with the additional duties. Even if nothing else it will be important to make clear that the additional work should have some kind of monetary value attached to it, not necessarily right this second but in the future.

        1. Veronica Mars*

          I still hear you framing this as something you’re relying on the company’s good will for. This isn’t about them giving you charity. This is a business discussion about what appropriate compensation for a role is. They aren’t doing you a ‘favor’ – they’re making a smart business move to retain good talent.

          I’m just saying this because I know how real imposter syndrome is and how hard it is to advocate for yourself. But if you can change your tone of voice to confidently reflect “of course this is something the company would do” instead of “please sir, can I have some more?” your chances of success will be magnified.

          1. relatively recent hire*

            Right. I struggle with this a lot so I appreciate you pointing it out. It’s…remarkably hard!!

  78. carrie heffernan*

    Has anyone had to take a test after applying for a job before even being granted an interview? I applied for a job and had to answer a bunch of math and abstract reasoning questions (I got almost all the abstract reasoning questions wrong). I have never had to do this before (I am in the US, if it matters) and assume they send this to everyone regardless of the job. Of course I didn’t get an interview even though not being able to identify the next shape in a pattern has never been a problem for me before and I know I can recognize patterns w/numbers and data. So I am feeling harshly judged. On the bright side, I was not a victim of my company’s layoffs this week so I guess I don’t need to dwell/obsess about this.

    1. Another Millenial*

      I had to do this as well, and it was for a receptionist position. I think they keep in mind the role, though, when considering the result. Like, if I did poorly on the math section they would be lenient because I wouldn’t be dealing with number, but they would focus on the spelling/grammar portion. All candidates were required to complete it, so I don’t think it was individually tailored to each role, as that would probably be too time-consuming.

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      I guess it depends on the job? My sister-in-law recently applied for a government-based job and I know she had to complete certain tests before being able to move forward (as far as I know she hasn’t heard back). Way back when I was just out of school and trying to get a job (ANY job) I applied for the TSA and the first thing I had to do was undergo a test on how well I can recognize dangerous materials in bags. I actually failed, which in the long run was for the better since I’m not in a job that isn’t soul-crushing (plus the job I ended up with took me to the part of the country where I met my now-husband!)

    3. Auntie Social*

      Yes. I got an early interview because I tested high–had to explain that I like to do logic puzzles. Spelling and grammar were fine, too.

    4. Alianora*

      Government jobs (at least city and county office jobs in California, from my experience) require this. They would grade you along with the other applicants, and interview a set number of the top-scoring applicants.

    6. GrilledCheeseforlunch*

      Yes, I had to take a test that sounds exactly like that, before being granted an interview. The wait was absurdly long and I assumed that I had failed the test. But one day they called for an interview, which ended up revealing aspects to the job that were really unappealing to me.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Many many many times, mostly online skills assessments (typing, sorting, etc.) and mostly for menial office jobs. I guess they want to make sure the candidates can do the actual work, but it grates when I have literal years of verifiable experience on my resume.

      One company gave me a logic test after the interview. Another gave me a huge, elaborate one that had a ton of math on it. I failed to answer those questions. I didn’t get the job but no loss, because the hiring manager was a total weirdo, and not in a good way.

    8. Gidget*

      This is definitely a hiring trend. I think it makes these testing companies a lot of money because they market to companies that their tests help them sift out the “rockstars” from all the applications. Also apparently it is being used a lot in hiring for teachers to identify “good” teachers before they interview them.

      But it’s not entirely new. They used to make everyone take civil service exams to be eligible for fed government positions.

    9. Cheri*

      I work for a a place whose parent company requires this sort of logic and personality testing. It is a do not pass go scenario if an applicant does not achieve a score within a certain band. It has caused all sorts of issues (like of 43 applicants for a receptionist position with light facilities duties TWO passed, and one of those failed an on-site retake) for hiring and it is impossible to get around. I have a whole lot of thoughts on the process, none of them good. It’s 1000000% awful and one of the reason why I’ll never apply to any place owned by parent company, no matter how much I like that actual company, even if I am the kind of person who does those kind of logic puzzles for fun.

    10. Guv' Nuh*

      At my current employer (government job) they do this, and while it was demoralizing going through the hiring process, one of the benefits of this is that my workplace is surprisingly diverse with intelligent competent people who can do the work (instead of people hired because of who they were related to, or because they were attractive, or because they were talented at B.S.-ing, or because they happened to be the right gender, age, race, etc.).

  79. Coworker who sends multiple emails*

    Hi.

    How do y’all deal with a coworker who doesn’t seem to organize their thoughts very well before sending an email? If the matter isn’t urgent I prefer to do research and send a thorough response so I may be biased.
    My coworker -same level- different job tends to respond very quickly but sends multiple updates. So I never know if he’s ‘done’ and I can actually use his output.

    Example
    Me: I’m getting error ABC on this process. Can you please look into why this error is displaying?
    Coworker: It looks like field X is formatted wrong.
    10 mins later
    It looks like X might not like what Field Y has.
    15 mins later
    X and Y are prob okay. There’s a problem with Z.
    35 mins later
    Never mind about Z; it could be this other thing.

    By this time I’m double checking X, Y, Z and wasting time. I don’t know when he is actually done. It is not like he ends the emails with ‘I am still researching and will keep you updated’. They all sound like ‘I am done researching’
    It seems rude to ask ‘is this your final answer’ because of course we all can come into new information at any time. But it is every research request he responds to. I don’t get a sense of when he’s finished.

    What makes this even more difficult is that his emails tend to be more stream of conscious style. Rambly without a whole lot of punctuation (my example isn’t the best at showing this). So I end up having to ask ‘just to make sure I’m understanding this correctly, X, Y, Z are fine and you looking into another input/ process/ potential cause?’

    Thanks for any advice.

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Can you set up some kind of delay where you just don’t actually look at her emails for 2 hours or so after they’re sent, so she has time to reevaluate and update? Presuming you’d be ok waiting 2 hours anyway, if thats how long it takes to get a thorough response.

      I don’t know how much standing you have to address the rest of it, since you don’t manage her.

      1. Potsie*

        I think a time delay is perfect. I would say reading the e-mails is fine, but if it isn’t urgent don’t act on anything until the next day.

    2. TheOtherLiz*

      If they reported to you, you could advise them to wait to update you until they’ve gotten to the solution. But since they are a peer, my advice is to remember the pattern when you reach out to them. If there’s a problem you need their help with, can you remind yourself that it will probably go like this, reach out as soon as you know there’s a problem, and then move on to something different – maybe even go take a break from work – and give it at least a half hour to look for updates? Then, before you dive in, look at the last email, and ask them if they’re confident it’s [whatever their latest conclusion is] before you go in and try to fix that? Confirm they’re at the end of their investigation before you act on their information.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I am sometimes this person. I often hit send then realize that there is more. I fully expect that the person on the receiving end isn’t going to get to it for a few hours or even days, so I expect that when they do look at it, they will take everything into account. I don’t do this on purpose — when I send the original I really do think I am done — it’s just that sometimes I realize that there is more later.

  80. bunniferous*

    I have a job I love-it is in the real estate field but not dependent on me finding clients directly (It involves selling foreclosure houses for a government entity) The great thing about it is I pretty much set my own schedule (although there are timelines and deadlines with inspections, reports, pictures to turn in, etc) but the bad news is that it is very hard to take any time off. No one else in the office really knows how to do my job but the boss plus if I did turn over any of it it would involve taking money out of MY check (I get paid when the house closes, just like any other real estate broker.)

    So, usually I am able to tweak things by bringing a computer when I go out of town, etc but then cue this Christmas when I had to take my husband to the ER right before Christmas dinner for what turned out to be almost a week stay….thankfully my boss (who is Awesome ™) was able to work on some of my stuff but I was still coming home late at night, working for an hour or so and then getting up a few hours later to be back at the hospital with hubby.

    Since I get graded on timelines, etc my scores will probably suck this month but it is what it is. However, these scores are what enable us to get new assignments.

    So, what this experience has shown me is I have GOT to come up with a way I can be absent from work for a week or so (I mean, a real vacation would be nice, too) ….without compromising my ability to make much needed money (which would happen if we just brought on a second person to do this job.) I already outsource measuring the houses -my boss and I split that fee. My boss is open to any and all ideas including possibly using some of our office admin….I guess this is not so much of a question about that as it is about my being a control freak-which in my defense, since we get scored on things being done on time and that really affects our bottom line….do any of you have that type of job and if so how do you handle it?

    1. Pebbles Bishop*

      I am in this EXACT same industry – I do post-foreclosure title work for a government entity! I don’t have a ton of advice, unfortunately, because I work for one of the major companies and have two other people who do my same job and can back me up when I’m out – but I wanted to say HI because I rarely see people from the foreclosure world on here. :)

      The money is what makes this tricky, I think. Have you talked to your boss about whether he’d be willing to take on the minimum necessary tasks for a week, so that deadlines aren’t missed, but that the work that isn’t as urgent can be done before/after your vacation? Would your time off be treated like paid time off, or would the time missed come out of your commission? Could an admin be cross-trained on the deadlined tasks without cutting into it? I think those are the questions I’d be asking. Hopefully this helps a bit!

      1. bunniferous*

        Yes, these are the things I am thinking about. The tricky thing is the field work, knowing what pictures to take and what to be keeping an eye on. I joke they would be in a world of hurt if I got hit by a Mack truck! But honestly, I think the problem is more my control freak tendencies.

        BTW I really appreciate what you and your cohorts do, it is an important part of the process!

  81. Cleopatra*

    It has been 10 months I am in my current job. It was a bad fit. And, after many many many thinking (and lots of miserable and boring days), I finally decided to start looking elsewhere. I found another job, and I will resign early next week. BUT noone in my current job suspects my resignation. It will be a huge surprise. I have already studied the speech I am going to have with my boss. But I am still afraid this will be a major surprise. I definitely will be looked at as the villain who leaves the team. For a little bit of context, my colleagues and I have a cordial/minimal/not-too-warm, but polite and diplomatic, relation. And my boss is nice, but can get vindictive.

    How can I minimize my boss’ and teamates’ reactions?

    Did you ever face a bad reaction to your resignation?

    1. Holy Moley*

      As the primary “go-to” at my previous job it was a shock to most people when I chose to leave for a new position. I framed it as “professional development” and said it was a better fit for me and my long term goals. Thats it. Dont apologize. Do your best to set up the next person for success or the colleagues who will take over your duties. But when asked just say it was a great opportunity that you could not pass up.

      My dad told me when I was young that whatever company I leave existed before I started to work there and will probably exist long after I leave. Your loyalty has to be to you and your family.

    2. TheNewbie*

      I gave notice in late November I was leaving my job. Several co-workers knew (and were references) but my boss was very surprised. Luckily for me there had been some layoffs recently so many people just assumed I was leaving because of the uncertainty of the business. Not true as I had been looking most of the year (no rush so really worked to find the right fit).
      There was one person who was LIVID. It would mean a lot of my stuff would be pushed off onto her since she was the only one with the access and knowledge (since she had trained me). She wasn’t livid I was leaving though…she was mad that other people knew before her. People such as my boss – she really thought she should have been the first to know. We weren’t friends in or outside work – she was way too uppity for me. I just started laughing about half way through her rant about how unhinged it all sounded. She got even more miffed so a few people around us started paying attention and the faces were definitely on the “is she serious about this?” spectrum.

    3. The Engineer*

      “but can get vindictive”

      Unless you can really expect otherwise I would clear your office of personal items the day before and be prepared to be marched out.

  82. MadeleinesAreMoreIsh*

    Anyone work in internal communications? As my current role has developed I am doing a lot more of this, and I love it and would like to do more. Eventually I’d like to move completely into that field. I don’t have any formal training, though. Does anyone have any tips for building a full career in comms? I am already planning to find as many opportunities for gaining experience in my current role as I can, and to try to get in at least SOME training this year.

    1. GrilledCheeseforlunch*

      Yes, I am in internal comms. If you have experience in marketing, it translates well. It helps to know how to create, edit and distribute all types of content – written, video, audio, graphic. It’s also really good to build a network within the company so you have people to go to for content. The best content doesn’t usually come from you, it comes from employees.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m a professional comms person and done both but I prefer external marketing comms. Why? Because so often internal comms deals with change management, HR and executives.

      Be very detail oriented and be able to write well in a personable and professional manner. Learn how to tell interesting stories that support the image the company wants to convey. Learn how to “spin” an unpopular corporate policy into something that does sound fair and reasonable. Learn how to present the C-suite in the best possible manner (even if they aren’t).

      I’d suggest a good business writing course and/or a PR course, because PR will teach you the art of the spin. Beyond writing, learning some basic graphics, social media, and audio-visual helps in creating and dissemination of the content. Maybe SharePoint too, as it’s used often for Intranets.

  83. Sienna*

    A particularly pain in the butt lead manager was asking employees if they planned on quitting anytime soon.

    He was mad that several employees opted to quit or retire early than stay on and he is PISSED because they had “invested” so much time in them (they didn’t). And all of those employees gave anywhere between 3 weeks to over a month of notice.

    I’m always perplexed when managers has this adversarial stance when it comes to people quitting. Particularly when they love to use “at will” to swiftly remove employees.

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      It’s nonsense. They take something personally that isn’t personal at all. People leave jobs. That’s a normal part of life. I can understand getting annoyed that you have to refill the position. (I myself have to refill positions and yes, it’s annoying.) But it’s not because the person leaving did anything wrong or is a Terrible Person. That’s just life.

    2. LPUK*

      So has it not heard the truism that people don’t leave jobs they leave managers? The remedy is in his own hands!

  84. Another Millenial*

    People who have been fired from a job:

    What have been successful responses to the question “why did you leave?”

    1. Popoorme*

      I always go with the truth and tell them I was fired. I then tell them why I was fired and how I learned and grew such that it won’t happen again because I’ve learned XYZ was deficient and I’ve overcome that.

      Have been fired twice and moved on and learned from the experience and gotten many jobs after admitting that I got fired.

      1. Another Millenial*

        So, what should I do if I don’t really know the reason why I was fired? I wasn’t given any constructive criticism, they just said “doesn’t fit culture.” They’ve done this before with people they just don’t like on a personal level.

        2. Constance Lloyd*

          Was there anything you disliked about the culture? If you can talk about mismatches you noticed that can help flesh out your response. Or, if you can’t think of specific examples either, you could try stating that it wasn’t a good culture fit and talking about the type of culture you do want to work in.

          My first job (bank with criminally aggressive sales programs) was a horrible culture fit. I wasn’t fired, but I quit fairly early after I was told twice a day for months that if I didn’t get my sales up I could lose my job. When I was asked why I left so early I mentioned something I liked about the place before explaining that the sales culture wasn’t for me and giving some basic examples of the type of culture I was looking for now. Is there a similar spin you could take?

        3. Popoorme*

          You tell prospective employers exactly what they told you when you were fired, that’s the truth.

  85. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Here’s one for the office breakroom files. There is a staggering headline in the news. Someone died who has been in a coma after being poisoned with mercury _by a co-worker_ several years ago. Others have been hospitalized; records of others who died before retirement are being double-checked to find out if those deaths are linked to poisoning.
    “Klaus O., who worked at the factory for 38 years, was convicted of attempted murder and bodily injury in March in three cases… /snip/ …after being captured on video adding mercury and lead compounds to the sandwiches. He was sentenced to life in prison. But the toolmaker’s case is far from closed. Nick N. is now at least the 22nd employee at ARI Armaturen to have died before reaching the age of retirement in the last 20 years — raising fears that Klaus O., 57, may have been a serial poisoner.”
    An exemplary employee who worked there for 38 years and no one got a reason out of him at trial. I may be using ice blocks at lunch for the rest of my life.
    Links in a followup comment.

    3. KoiFeeder*

      Judging by the news reports, it sounds like a serial poisoner to me. I’d be curious about any deaths in his vicinity, including family.

    4. Forkeater*

      Holy cow! I thought I was weird because I don’t like leaving my food or drinks unattended. I’m going to be way more paranoid now!

      1. KoiFeeder*

        For what it’s worth, the sort of people who poison en masse are usually serial poisoners, and rarely stop poisoning after the first death, so it’s pretty unusual for one to not get caught throughout their entire life.

        Also for what it’s worth, the three poisons used in this case were metallic poisons, and have a distinctive taste (especially the mercury salts!).

        1. Fikly*

          I…do not find this reassuring. How many people were poisoned despite the distinctive taste? And how many people do these serial poisoners poison/kill before they are caught?

          1. KoiFeeder*

            I mean, there’s no education on “arsenic tastes metallic, mercury salts are both metallic and acrid, and lead has a sweetish-metallic taste,” but it doesn’t need to be common knowledge to avoid being poisoned anymore. It’s highly unlikely that any random person is going to be poisoned, especially by a stranger. And very few poisons are impossible to detect in the body and/or difficult to cure if caught in time; the ones that are are usually plant poisons and harder to administer appropriately to cause death without the target realizing it.

            As for how many a serial poisoner poisons prior to being caught, the definition of serial is that it’s a habit, so usually three is the minimum for that benchmark. Either a poisoner gets caught in the first attempt because poisons are tricky and enough to kill quickly is usually noticeable, or as in this case they get caught because there’s a noted tendency for poison murderers to just keep poisoning people.

            The choice of metallic poisons in this case, which accumulate over time unlike plant poisons, is pretty telling. You can get away with smaller dosages over time and that flies under the radar. Hence the above comment about checking out all the deaths in this guy’s vicinity- it’s way harder than people think to get it right the first time, and he seems to have gotten it right for the entire 38 years of his employment there…

  86. Free Meercats*

    Second round of Open Enrollment here. Our union contract was still in negotiation when the first one happened. Now we have the option of a CDHP plan in addition to the current choices of PPO or HMO plans. I’ve been on the PPO plan for a long time and the new CDHP plan will use the same network of providers. BUT (there’s always a but), the deductibles are higher. To offset that, we will get an HRA/VEBA account, fully funded by our employer. Theoretically, the final cost to me will be the same if we go to full out-of-pocket. The two advantages I see are the lower premium (to the tune of ~$90/mo) and the ability to take unspent funds into retirement (about 3 years away.) I’m not seeing any big down side.

    The question is, am I missing something?

    1. Forgot my username*

      The fact that they are funding the HRA is really great. The only thing I’d worry about (if I was a worrier!) is if I had a large unexpected medical expense early in the plan year and there wasn’t a lot of money in the HRA yet. For instance, broken ankle with a need for surgery and physical therapy. So ask questions about when they will fund the HRA — all at once in the beginning of the year or gradually over the year? And if you are really wanting to plan for the worst case scenario, then maybe add some more money to the HRA out of your own paychecks (consider swapping some of that $90/month savings into the HRA).

      But also, consider that there is probably a low chance that you’ll actually have one of these unexpected expensive medical events. If you did have one, and there wasn’t enough money in your HRA, do you have some savings that could cover it? Also, ask questions about out of pocket maximums – usually health insurance plans have a cap where they’ll pay 100% if you’ve expended a huge amount of out of pocket $$ (this might only apply to in-network care, though).

      Otherwise, I agree with you that it sounds great. The monthly savings is a big deal!

      1. Free Meercats*

        First year, they are fully funding it up front. Following years it will be funded monthly. Plus we’re going to have a completely employer funded clinic with free visits and a limited formulary, no copay prescriptions.

        I think I’m going with the new plan.

    2. Benefits Geek*

      Make sure you completely understand the HRA rules. You will want to check on the types of expenditures that can be submitted for reimbursement, AND any time limits that apply. You also want to check on whether dependent expenses can be submitted. In the US, employers set up the rules for the HRA plan, so it’s a really good idea to get and read the HRA plan document. I am not suggesting your employer would try to be deliberately shady; I think of this more as looking out for your best interests – you do not want to get hit with owing a big deductible because your expenses were not eligible for reimbursement.

      1. Hound Fan*

        HRA accounts generally are only available during active employment. Once you leave, the account disappears. With a union, you may have retiree benefits that allows for HRAs to follow you into retirement.

        Also check to see if the accounts roll over year to year. Cigna sells a product where the HRA is embedded in the plan so the HRA amounts can only be used during the plan year. The expenses are limited to medical in that product.

        Finally, they are paper accounts — the funds are only supplied when there are expenses submitted.

    3. Lore*

      Generally with CDHP, the entire family deductible must be met before anything gets covered. So if on a PPO the deductible is $1000, it’s a separate $1k for each person covered. On CDHP it’s cumulative—if the deductible is $2k and you have a spouse or child on your plan, you need to spend $4k before anything is covered. If the FSA will fully cover that then you’re probably fine either way.

  87. Eve*

    If you have your own office to do like it? Any cons?

    I’ve been offered one instead of being in the open floor plan and I’m debating it. I think I will miss the casual chitchat but also like the idea of controlling my own lights and no worries about listening my podcasts.

    1. Holy Moley*

      I moved from open floor to office and I miss the chit chat. But its nice to have my own space, my own fridge and a window I can control.

    2. hermit crab*

      I had my own office for a brief shining moment ca. 2013-2015. It was not actually my favorite workspace setup so far in my career, but it was up there. It was in a very old-school space with office-lined hallways and basically everyone had either a personal or two-person office.

      Pros included: a window, storage space (space for plants! a place to hang my coat!), ability to use speakerphone, ability to decorate, less need to book conference rooms for small meetings, ability to change my clothes real quick before going to class, and space to spread out a lot of things on the floor when preparing binders.

      I did miss the casual interactions you get in a more open space, but my office was right by the kitchen so that wasn’t too bad. I kept a well-stocked candy dish too. But my boss was in the office next door, and we spent a lot of time just shouting back and forth through the wall. (“Whoa, look at that email!” “Are you dialing in?” “I think it’s in Chapter 7!” “Want to get lunch?” etc. etc.)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We all have offices. You do cruise bys and there’s still lots of chit chat!!! I’ve preferred offices to every shared design. Only cons are I have to leave the space for socializing if people aren’t coming to me. And I’m always happy to leave the space at times.

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I’ve never had my own office, but if my choice was that or open plan I’d take the office in a New York minute.

      The way I see it, you can have all the chit chat you want in hallways, the breakroom, etc., or even by visiting somebody.

      NB: I am somewhat introverted.

  88. straws*

    We’ll likely be moving our offices this year or next, and it will fall to me to coordinate most of it. I’ve never done this before, so I want to make sure I don’t forget anything and make sure all bases are covered. I’m thinking about putting out a brief survey to the managers to ensure all areas have what they need. We’re very small and won’t be purchasing or designing our own space, so we’ll have limited options. Can anyone suggest what to ask about? And, how to ask it in a way that says “I care about your needs, but I also can’t guarantee you’ll get all the exact things you want”? For example, I was thinking about asking about needs for the department but explained in the abstract. I’m still not sure how to word that, but I’m hoping to get responses like “I need enough privacy that people can’t walk up and see my screen, a locking drawer for sensitive files, and enough space to meet with a subordinate” rather than “I need a private office”.

    1. Lives in a Shoe*

      I tried to respond to this yesterday but my Kindle resisted. If you’re still checking back are you looking for help with wording, process or both?

      When I have to handle things like this I try to start by looking at what we have and determining what the problems, irritations or shortfalls are. Once I know that, I can look at the budget, envision day-to-day scenarios, and work with an eye towards solving those issues.

  89. Flaxseed*

    I’ve been at my job for 4 months and a coworker whom works in my department, but I don’t work with, approached me. He asked me, “Do you live on Walnut Lane? Is John Doe your husband?”

    He wanted to send me a thank you card for something, but isn’t this a weird way to approach someone? Plus, can’t he just hand it to me at work?

    I don’t know if he’s just awkward or something, but I feel slightly creeped out…

    1. Dust Bunny*

      “Um, WHY, and WHY?”

      Yeah, this is a really weird and creepy way to approach someone and, like you said, he could just give it to you at work.

  90. De Minimis*

    My new boss started this week, and it’s also the week the auditors our on site. Our CFO was handling some of the accounting manager duties these past couple of months and really dropped the ball on a lot of things, and as a result I think I’m really getting off on the wrong foot with my new manager. I’m frazzled and really having trouble staying on top of everything. I had to reprint and reconstruction a lot of things that I’d turned into the CFO that I guess she must have lost or misplaced, and it looks like I just didn’t turn it in to begin with. My desk is a mess because I keep having to pull out old documents for the auditors and don’t have adequate filing space.
    I know it’s crazy right now with the audit and we’ll see what happens over these next few weeks, but I’m starting to wonder if this work situation can be salvaged. I haven’t been reprimanded or anything [yet] but I know I’ve had a really bad first impression, and that’s usually really tough to overcome.

      1. De Minimis*

        It was fine when she came in this morning, I probably am just hyper-paranoid about work performance/getting fired because I’ve been fired in the past and have had problems with workplace organization.

    2. WineNot*

      You’re FINE! Your boss is probably a bit frazzled too, to be coming into a new company while auditors are around and everyone is a little stressed. When it settles down, I would just have a quick meeting with your boss to let them know how excited you are to work together (if you are) and that you acknowledge that you were frazzled when they first started and let them know why. I assume they’re ging to want to know everything that’s going on with the CFO handing the accounting manager duties and dropping the ball, etc. so they can work to fix it. It will all work out!

  91. GigglyPuff*

    I get my first intern at the end of the month! And it’s been a while since I’ve had to do something new/different at work, so pretty nervous.

    I’m trying to make a list of things to cover on the first day, it’s a very relaxed internship, no credit, no money, few hours a week for the semester. The admin stuff I have so far is going over schedule, contacting about being late/not make it in, timesheets, and giving them a tour. Are there anymore general work things I need to go over?

    I have stuff down related to the actual project they will be working on, and they already have our internet usage policy (which I’ll mention again), but is there any other first day, workplace stuff I should go over? Thanks!

    1. Eng*

      I’ve found that some interns have no sense of when to ask for help. Some ask for help after 30 of struggle when they could probably have figured it out in 10 minutes, some make no progress for a day when you could have easily unblocked them. Maybe figure out the sweet spot for this role and share it if they are consistently going over or under.

    2. Caterpie*

      I would show them where they are supposed to put/do all their things!

      A drawer for purse/backpack, what fridge they can use and if any shelves are off limits, where there’s a quiet place if they need to take a quick personal call, etc. Also where they can get office supplies, and if there is a communal coffee pot, how to use it (if they are allowed).

    3. Entry-level Marcus*

      I would go over the dress code as it can sometimes be tricky for people new to the workforce to figure it out just by observing their coworkers (or they don’t think to do that). We’ve read all the AAM questions about interns who dress too casually and, on the flip side, I know a number of people who overdressed for their first internships/jobs until they were explicitly told what the dress code was.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        +1,000

        Dress codes can be more difficult for a newcomer to infer than you might think. #KnowledgeCurse

        Just spell out the dress code.

    4. just chilling*

      not an intern supervisor but i was an intern this past summer so im just sharing. my director and manager took me out for lunch on my first day and we kinda talked and get to know each other, i thought that was nice. you can bring breakfast too if a full meal isnt a good option. i was also asked about my fav candy and on the first day i have one on my desk! it was good to have snack while adjusting to everything lol im a ask any question type of person but i know not everyone does, esp for internship when ur new to everything. i think it ll be nice to talk about expectations and what you hope your intern will do like ask questions, career advice etc whatever ur comfortable with.

    5. Jen Mahrtini*

      I know this isn’t what you asked, but if they’re not getting credit or pay, they should probably only be observing, not project work.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Unfortunately that’s not up to me. I do know we would’ve been totally fine with having them receive credit and working with their program, but for whatever reason they aren’t doing it.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good stuff here! Because I loved working with our interns, this answer will probably get long.
      Let them know what to do when they have finished & have nothing to do.
      Share your phone-answering scripts&etiquette, and how to take&transmit messages. “Every office has a slightly different standard and here’s ours” becomes a general lesson for them for future jobs too.
      Mention your group’s level of confidentiality. (Medical privacy laws? Library policy against tracking/disclosing who reads what?)
      Tell them how to call in sick–and that they should if they’re contagious (assuming that’s true.)

  92. Not the Bobs*

    I am looking for work wardrobe advice. My current wardrobe is more casual, and I want to upgrade to a more business style. However, I am so picky about my clothes. What styles, stores, or brands do you recommend for a plus size woman with an intense aversion to visible belly outline and a refusal to wear shapewear? (I support and aspire to be anybody who embraces either of those, but I personally find comfort and my self-esteem are best served by avoiding tight clothes and shapewear.) I’d like mix and match pieces with pockets if possible, because my size changes a lot, and I can’t afford a ton of clothes every time that happens. I wear pant, dresses, and skirts.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Could you do something along the lines of a shift dress, accessorized with scarves, jackets, cardigans, whatever you like that is also nice enough for your office? Not having a waistband/waist seam might be both more discreet and more comfortable.

    2. Juniper*

      Depending on your industry, Lularoe can have a comfortable, modest, and flattering silhouette and depending on the pattern, can look really professional! And there are pockets!

      2. Amber Rose*

        Lularoe is a pyramid scheme that is constantly under fire for poor quality. I caution anyone against buying from them.

      4. HBJ*

        I strongly disagree. I’ve seen people wearing LuLaRoe in a business setting. It is OBVIOUSLY LuLaRoe. I have never seen a professional-looking print, and I’ve been to events where (among other things) their consultants/stylists/whatever are selling racks and racks of brand new stuff.

        I know a lot of plus-size women like it, but I think it’s incredibly unflattering. It’s a lot of loose, boxy knits, very little tailoring.

      5. Mia 52*

        Its been said but yeah NO they are pyramid scheme with horrible quality clothing that is under a ton of lawsuits for people who’ve been hoodwinked by their predatory practices.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Ugh the struggle, it’s the worst.
      So I used to be all about Lane Bryant, but their quality and style have just gone to crap. I hate giving them money now, they used to have great basic business clothes, but now everything requires multiple layers so they can sell more items, and it doesn’t last. For shirts I do like Torrid, many don’t require you to purchase a cami and a cardigan to wear them. Honestly, I’ve started having better luck at department stores again, JcPenney, Kohl’s, etc. For higher end professional wear, I’ll usually go to Dillard’s. I’ve also had luck at Target. I can’t help with online stores cause I hate returning stuff by mail. I have also noticed a few more clothing chains have added plus size, but I’m not sure if it’s actually in store, like The Loft, but those are also more expensive.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Also many people recommend SnagTights for tights/leggings. I haven’t tried them yet, but they’re on the top of the list when I do need those things.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I want to try them, too! I’m not technically plus-sized but I have very large thighs and have never gotten along well with tights and hose.

        2. Claire*

          Snag tights are AMAZING. I didn’t wear tights (or skirts/dresses) for over ten years. Discovered Snags last year, tried them, loved them and bought SO MANY pairs. Now I have so many fun colours, and I even have skirts I wear to work.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m extremely upset over the lack of quality these days from Lane Bryant and Torrid.

        Both places have sold me defective clothes in the last year. I popped a seam on pants from Lane Bryant on the first wear. They have clearly gone to cheaper alternatives but haven’t adjusted their prices because that’s not how any of that works, sigh. Yuck.

        Same story with Torrid, one of my zippers popped from faulty seam work. I check all seams before purchasing because it’s basically rule 1 of buying clothes! Double yuck.

        I’ve had good luck with Target for basics and also JC Penny has increased their sizes, so it’s less frustrating to try them out depending on your size. I’m in that “early plus size” section so sometimes I can find it in the regular section and sometimes I can’t.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          NOTE: If I’m into conspiracy theories, I’d say Torrid realized their original jeans lasted 6-12 months of constant wear before you got the chub rub in the thighs that blew them out. So they were like “Oh this cannot do, people need to buy pants much sooner!” *side eye* [I’m kidding, they’re just cheap and got lower labor costs somewhere that clearly are skimping on the quality of those former seams of steel.]

          1. BusyBee*

            OK, chub rub story. I bought jeans from Athleta, got them on sale, but still more than I would really love to spend on jeans. Fine. LOVED the jeans, though. But, after like 9 months of wear the thighs wore out from the chub rub. They took them as a return after 9 months and gave me a refund. So while I was sad about them wearing out, I was really impressed that they reimbursed me after nearly a year of heavy wear.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              The business person in me is screaming but then I remember how much of a mark-up stores have and I calm down a bit.

              Lots of retail establishments are like this though, they’ve had to be in an attempt to continue to survive. It’s actually put small boutiques at risk though because they cannot afford to be that generous =(

              Aaaaah it’s owned by Gap/Old Navy, makes a million times more sense why they’re so generous!

              It’s probably my privilege speaking when I say I never return anything, I just get angry about it and replace it by some other brand usually. I wouldn’t feel right taking back something and even approaching a subject when it came to “These wore out after extensive wear, what can you do for me?”

        2. GigglyPuff*

          I’m so glad I’m not the only one who has noticed! Few years ago Lane Bryant switched out the type of elastic, barely any at all, on their underwear, and it’s so horrid now. It’s been awful trying to find another store to get stuff I’ve been buying from LB for years. Used to love their jeans but they barely last a year now and never restock the sizes. The underwires on their bras become dislodged during the first wear (yes correct size, but the wires aren’t supposed to move), so they stab you in the pit. I have about six of those bras cause I didn’t know before the return date expired, ugh. Yeah, Torrid isn’t too much better, totally shrunk their stuff before, but at least their clothing style seems to fit my style better, so I’m a little more lenient with them.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I buy a LOT of stuff from Torrid, and I haven’t noticed any quality issues, but the sizing is a joke. I own multiple different colors of the same blouse, and they all fit a little differently.

        3. Syfygeek*

          I love the Target plus size section now. The Ava & Viv (or something like that) is good quality, comfortable and looks good.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      What is your body shape? If you’re hourglass or pear-shaped, I’d suggest Lane Bryant. I’m apple-shaped, and Torrid works really well for me. Like you, I don’t want my belly to show AT ALL, and I’m not going to wear shapewear to hold it in. They have a lot of nice work pants now with pockets, and they’re stretchy enough that they can span multiple sizes. And their blouses tend to be longer (at least on me) so they cover what I want covered.

    6. bonafide*

      Favorite clothing line for hiding the torso: Chico’s. It’s not all for your grandmother (which I am, btw), and their stuff is good quality and regularly on sale. Mostly classic, non-trendy stuff I keep for years, and the tops go very well with casual or dressy bottoms. I get many compliments on my “style.”

    7. Tarable*

      I share similar complaints about Lane Bryant and Torrid as noted in the other comments. Have you looked at Eloqui or Modcloth? Talbot Women has some stock pieces, but it is a “mature” look. Macy’s has solid professional wear too for plus size women. Remember, basic or boring looking pieces can be dressed up with accessories like cardigans, boots, statement necklaces, earrings, scarves.

    8. Brownie*

      EShakti all the way. My size fluctuates, especially around my hips/belly, and their custom-sized dresses are fabulous for being able to get something that fits when my size/shape changes and that also looks professional no matter what my current size is. Their measurements don’t include ease, so I do have to add that in to the custom measurements. The dresses have real pockets, customizable necklines, sleeves, and skirt lengths, and are basically Avenue/Catherine’s/Lane Bryant priced bespoke plus-sized clothes even when not on sale. Right now they have over 2000 dress styles too, so a far better selection than any of the before-mentioned stores.

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        I really like not too tight sleeveless blouses with a cardigan button or just wrapped sweater. Professional shirts with sleeves are generally either weird in the armpits or are so loose cut it’s like a tent. As a more hourglass plus size it allows the blouse to hang, but the sweater pulls it in in the stomach. Also, I wear super light weight sweaters in the summer and heavier in the winter

      2. Raia*

        I keep wanting to get an eshakti dress, but worry that wearing it would stand out too much in my fairly casual department. While managers wear nicer dresses and statement pieces, my peers and I are typically in jeans and a nice shirt, and sneakers.

      3. Fikly*

        Oh, yes, eShakti is AMAZING.

        Personally, I prefer their knit cotton over their more fitted fabrics. The cotton is a nice thick quality, and doesn’t show every bump and wrinkle, too!

        Spend the extra $10 and do custom measurements.

    9. Anongineer*

      I get ankle pants with an elastic waist (their regular work pants irritate me for some reason) from Ann Taylor or Chico’s and get faux button ups from Torrid. Also Eloquii is super hit or miss but I’ve gotten some good work dresses from them. I’ve never had any problems with the quality from any of them.

    10. Kiki*

      Universal Standard! They have a lot of really stylish looking basics in a wide range of sizes. Everything fits very comfortably and looks really sharp.
      Full disclosure, I am not plus size, but do often have issues with clothes fitting me well (someone make pants for butts, please!). This brand is endorsed by people of a lot of shapes and sized, including Roxane Gay, whom I adore

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        That was going to be my suggestion. They’re at the pricier end of the spectrum, but they’re very flattering and well made. Probably not quite white-shoe corporate level professional, but great for a step up from casual.

    11. B*

      The fabric “ponte” will be your best friend. A thicker knit (no show through) with a good drape. You can find dresses, short , long or sleeveless, tailored jackets and trousers some with partial or full elasticated waists made of this fabric. Even better some are machine washable! Brand prices/labels range from Eileen Fisher to JC Penney. Some good mid range price suggestions in plus size range are Lands end and JJill. Also Universal Standard has very work appropriate options. Please get back to us when you find the options that work for you. Inquiring minds want to know!

      1. Anonallama*

        Do you know about Corporette? It’s a blog basically devoted to answering this question. I’m an in-be-tweenie short pear; my favorite brands are J Jill, Talbot’s, Eileen Fisher, Land’s End, LL Bean, MM Lafleur, NYDJ, Nic + Zoe, and Anne Klein. You might considering using a subscription service like Gwynne Bee and Rent The Runway, or a styling company like Dia & Co or StichFix. You can also get more affordable items from these retailers on Ebay or ThreadUp if you just want to try something out.

    12. Champagne_Dreams*

      I am LIVING in these ponte pants from Talbots, link in second comment to avoid moderation of original comment. These ponte pants have real pockets that actually fit my phone/keys, they don’t wrinkle, they’re forgiving enough to accommodate a pretty large weight fluctuation. The “high-waist” keeps the pants from cutting right into the middle of my stomach and creating a pot-belly protrusion.

      Talbots & Lands End are my best friends for work. LOTS of great bi-stretch and ponte stuff that washes well, doesn’t wrinkle, flows, fits, and moves. I’ve also found a few dressed with pockets in them that I treasure at Loft. I’ve also found good stuff at J. Jill, but I want a longer inseam than they offer. All sources are online-only, natch. But you can return Talbots, Loft, and J. Jill in-store so at least you can avoid return postage at those two stores. And Lands End has variety for days and an amazing return policy. I’ll link the Talbots pants in a new comment.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Allow me to regret the long slow death of Dress Barn aka Roz&Ali. They were my go-to for nicer corporate casual for a long time, but they got so trendy I could no longer go back and get ‘another like this one I’m wearing”. Quality slipped. (Zippers that stick in the store? Bad sign.)
      It’s a shame how much was invested in the name change, instead of merchandising. I stopped buying because of design & quality, not the store name.

  93. Cecil DeMille*

    I am hoping someone in the community can point me toward a resource that would back up the feedback I am about to give an employee.

    My employee, Jim Carrey, is extremely theatrical when making a point, either in meetings or in personal conversation. Points are emphasized with physical punctuation: wild gestures, diagrams, physically moving around the room in a literal demonstration of a comment, etc. Others view this as juvenile or even intimidating because it can be overwhelming and Jim can take up a lot of literal and figurative space in a meeting. It also doesn’t make him look professional; he appears out of control and unaware, regardless of how factual the points he’s making are.

    Jim is not very receptive to feedback (to put it mildly) but does appreciate data. What I am hoping to say to him is something along the lines of ‘these behaviors that you use to illustrate your points affect your credibility in meetings because the theater is intimidating and immature.’ Has anyone ever seen an article that makes a similar claim? Thank you!

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      Oh my god, is my employee moonlighting for you? Sorry, I don’t have any advice for you. But I have sympathy as I have the exact same problem. It can be much more intimidating to co-workers than people realize.

      1. Cecil*

        And every conversation is a verbal joust! I am fully expecting the response to this feedback to be along the lines of: ‘I am not responsible for how people view me, and their misinterpretation is their own fault. They need to appreciate diversity in communication styles.’

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Every conversation is competition that you didn’t even realize you were in until you’ve already lost. :(

        2. Fikly*

          I would answer thus: “You do not have control over how people view your behavior, but you do have to deal with the consequences of it.”

    2. Washi*

      Can you point to the impact of the gesturing? Like maybe say what you’re observing generally, and then give an example, like “yesterday, you really startled Marcia when you suddenly flung your arm out in the meeting very close to her face.” And then maybe ask him to keep his gestures within his own “bubble.” And since you’re his manager, you have standing to remind him of this when it seems to be getting out of hand!

    3. Random Commenter*

      It would probably be worth it to address the fact that he’s not receptive to feedback. Regardless of whether he agrees with your feedback, as his boss, you can require him to follow it.

    4. KX*

      You could try to downplay the “less credibility” and “immature” angle (which would make anyone defensive) and go for a “distracts from your main points” and “people watch the gestures instead of hearing the words.” Play up the importance of what he has to say and how to make it easier for the others to concentrate on the information he has to present.

      Maybe–maybe, it depends on a lot of things–find resources for him about how to make an effectively theatrical presentation or how to interact with the audience productively, and see if he can channel his energy into something still demonstrative but more expected. It’s not bad to have people speak in an distinct, engaging way. See if you can get him from wild to engaging.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I saw someone reign in their (significantly less theatrical) hand gestures after just two Toastmasters sessions. But unless you have a chapter at the office or a budget to pay employee memberships, I can’t see how you’d get him to one.

    5. Cartographical*

      Just as “no” is a complete sentence, you also don’t have to back up why this is necessary. Your might be the only workplace on the planet in which his behaviour is unacceptable but it’s still unacceptable! “Jim, you need to moderate your behaviour in meetings and in conversations with colleagues — the magnitude of your gestures and your inability to stay still when speaking needs to change. I’m happy to work with you and provide feedback for a period of time but this has to be resolved as quickly as possible. Can you do that?”

  94. Eng*

    What is a reasonable amount of time to ask for to consider an offer? In case it matters, specifically software engineering so a very in-demand position, and the employer in question has been very respectful of my time so far and not left me hanging.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would say anywhere from 3-5 days is pretty standard to request to consider an offer.

      Given the competitive nature of that business, I wouldn’t ask for too much time because they certainly have runner ups that they can lose if they wait too long but a week is rarely much of a problem for most places I’ve heard.

    2. Juniper*

      Any amount of time can be asked for as long as it is qualified/justified, I think. If you ask for an arbitrary amount of time, it may make you look unprepared, or not really interested. However, if you need a week because another company is getting back to you within that time, if it were me I’d appreciate the communication and transparency.

    3. CheeryO*

      No more than 48 hours, imo. Presumably you have already considered the pros and cons and just needed the final salary figure and details on the benefits. I’m sure you get more leeway in an in-demand field, but I’d worry about looking unenthusiastic if you ask for more.

  95. Floating*

    My friend’s workplace just updated their holiday policy to include two floating holidays. The company initially explained that these floating holidays can only be used on religious/cultural/federal holidays that the company doesn’t already observe, or on an employee’s birthday (no word on how the company would handle a February 29th birthday in a non leap year). The policy was then refined to only allow the floating holiday to be used the day before or after Thanksgiving/Black Friday, Christmas Day/Eve, New Years Day or on the day of employee’s birthday.

    My friend and I both find this to be a very restrictive floating holiday policy. I’m curious if other commenters with floating holiday policies have restrictions on when the holidays can be used.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      That’s bizarre.

      My company has a floating holiday policy in order to equalize leave between bank and brokerage employees; bank employees follow bank holidays, which include Veteran’s Day, but brokerage employees follow the NYSE holiday schedule, which doesn’t. So we get a floating day instead.

      Other than the need for approval like normal vacation time, and using it in the same calendar year, we have no restrictions on when the floating day can be used.

    2. Legally a Vacuum*

      I thought floating holidays was in part a nod to all the non-Christian holidays that are not recognized. So could an employee at your company not use a floating holiday for Yom Kippur?

      Because that sounds nonsensical to me.

    3. CheeryO*

      No, that’s weirdly restrictive. We get a couple floating holidays per year, typically Lincoln’s birthday and Election Day. You have to use them within a year, but there are no restrictions as long as you get supervisory approval. I have definitely heard of people using them on a non-recognized religious/cultural holiday, but the vast majority of people just use them as extra vacation days.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      Yes, unusual. At my last job with floating holidays, there was a secret list of holidays that counted, but it was much longer than that. (Yes, those from minority religions and cultures pushed back, with mixed success.)

    5. Llellayena*

      So they’ll let you use it for Christmas Eve (hello Christians), but not Yom Kippur or Eid-Al Fitr?* That kind of cancels half the point of the floating holiday, to cover holidays that are (unfortunately) not provided holidays to people who need them and shouldn’t be required to use vacation. I’m Christian and I’d be pushing back on this. Oy.

      *I find it an amusing extension of this issue that the spell check for this comment flagged Yom Kippur and Eid-Al Fitr but not Christmas. Apparently they’re not even words, let alone holidays?

      1. Doublethink*

        Last couple of years we had the joy of seeing “Floating holiday (assigned)” on the company vacation calendar to cover plant closures. For heaven’s sake just tell us to plan ahead by saving a vaca day or floater or else we won’t get paid.

    7. Fikly*

      That’s not really a floating holiday. That’s a drifting holiday.

      As someone in a job that still needs to be covered on all holidays, I’ve always understood floating holidays to be a day off you are given to use on any other day, in exchange for not getting a holiday off.

  96. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    We’re in a [somewhat long but still] transition period with the change of executives and I am starting to have to think about all the little “housekeeping” things we need to deal with. And it’s making it more real to me by the day. It’s reminding me how much I dislike change.

    Good news is the exiting party is the one who’s doing annual evaluations/raises. I wasn’t concerned because my deliverables are typically in your face to anyone in that position but the production side was stressing the heck out needless to say.

    And in better news, I finally pushed for my formal title change since that was a decision made under the current authority months ago and I dropped the ball pushing for it because it wasn’t that important in the end. Now it’s extra important given the changes developing and the fact my job description was laughably out of step with what I do. Phew.

    Other creatures of habit and routine, do you have any special things you do to deal with the required changes like this? I’m doing pretty well but it’s still stressful AF needless to say.

    1. StellaBella*

      I struggle with change too. I had a mentor years ago that said, “Define your own ambiguity and that will help.” I find breaking things down into smaller tasks helps me deal with big change. I am also doing a mindfulness course now to be more present and not worry. Hope all goes well for you!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I have had to learn to be flexible and roll with the changes, so that has absolutely helped when things aren’t seen coming at least! I’m now learning that I have to figure out how to deal with that with a longer scope on the change.

        Previously it was just thrown at me and I caught it. Now I’ve had months to stew and stir myself up about the changes in the works. But I should certainly take a page out of the old play book and try to figure out how to make my mind take the time frame out of it.

  97. rayray*

    There is so much I hate about the culture at my current job. Here’s my complaint of the day:

    The executive assistants are treated like children, when frankly, it’s these people who hire them that act like children. Literally can’t be arsed to prepare or pick up their own lunches, so the assistants do it. Just barely, I was checking something in the conference room and empty soda cans and unused water bottles from the last meeting just left behind. I have also cleaned up the lunch remains from GROWN ASS ADULTS.

    I get having assistants to help with stuff, but grow the hell up and clean up after yourself, you disgusting, lazy slobs.

      1. Rayray*

        I’m looking to do move on so. Just been so stressed and I hate job searching. But seriously, I hate this place. I’ve never seen this kind of behavior. I definitely have had coworkers who maybe missed wiping a spill or something little, but never professional executives actingike they need to be waited on. It’s so pathetic.

  98. Question for Accountants*

    Any Accounting people willing to share (anon or otherwise) what you think is an appropriate salary range for an AP Manager/Supervisor?

    If it matters, the position would require a move to the Southern US. It’s an historic, medium-sized city experiencing a lot of growth (think Charlotte or Austin).

    And, for fun, I’d love to hear your favorite Excel tip, trick, or function.

    TIA

    1. Banana Bum*

      Not in Accounting but I work in a large fortune 100 company and I know that managers across most departments make a salary between $110,000 – $120,000, not including bonus and stock that is gifted. I’m in Austin :)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Quick search says in this area at least you’re looking at 66-110 annual. And that’s pretty broad BUT it’s because of a lot of deciding factors as well.

      What’s your experience level, how many years in supervising? What size of company? How many people are you in charge of?

      It’s going to depend on those things as well, that’s why the range is so silly huge.

  99. L*

    What other resources besides AAM do people like for not just how to be a good boss and how to be a good employee but resources that focus on some of the more complex interactions of dealing with very senior folks or specifically for people who have to deal with folks in political roles? I’m interested in a range of resources for how to do that work and how to move into the work of being in a higher level management and how to work with people who are in those roles.

    I currently tap into Harvard Business Review and Manager Tools (which is hit or miss but aligns a lot with AAM).

  100. WineNot*

    I work in customer service for a medium-sized company with large, well-known customers around the country. We import our product and send it to our customers so they can sell it to their customers. I deal directly with this one large customer every day. They come to me with their low-level issues, and I often get involved with their high-level issues as well because I’m on the front line and hear about problems or proactively notice something that will become a problem first. I am involved in one problem right now that I brought up earlier this week. I have worked all week to gather information, work with the departments who need to be involved, communicate with my customer…it kind of came to a head last night, and today, everyone has been communicating about this without me on separate phone calls, email chains, etc. The problem is getting solved and everyone is working on it, but I hate the feeling of not fully being able to see the issue through.

    Our COO who is very involved with this customer has expressed the desire to have me grow in my role and take over a lot of the higher-level responsibilities that he currently deals with in regards to this customer, but nothing ever changes. My customer is out of state and came to our office a couple of months ago for a whole day of meetings and I asked to be included just to listen and learn. They turned me down. I only got to introduce myself and talk with them for about 3 minutes before their high-level meetings had to begin. They told me I would get to eat lunch with them and discuss operational things. I waited for them to grab me all afternoon and they never did. I never even got an update after the meeting or anything. I feel like I have a ton of potential and a lot to offer to this relationship and I know from the COO and President that the customer loves me.

    I have a couple questions. How should I go about broaching the subject of wanting more responsibility? How do I let them know that I thrive on problem-solving, putting puzzle pieces back together after things fall through, and that the basic responsibilities of my job are not enough to keep me happy and fulfilled here? I’ve been here for 9 months so I know it’s not that long, but I am still itching to do more and learn more! Thank you. Any advice is welcome!

    1. Product Person*

      In your place, I’d sit down with the COO and make your case, starting from a post-mortem of the case you described. Point out that you proactively identified the issue, and that if you are allowed to continue in the loop as things are escalated, you’d be able to take over a lot of the work that higher level leadership are currently doing. Describe how you expect issues to be solved more efficiently if you are kept as the point person for customer communication until final resolution. Explain how you’d make sure that when a decision needs to be made by someone higher in the hierarchy, you’ll make sure to step aside.

      Being very specific about what you want is how you’ll accomplish your goal. If you simply ask for “more responsibility”, executives won’t know how to translate that into specific changes in how things are currently handled. Good luck!

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Might be time for you to apply for a promotion or a new title. Does your company have anyone titled “project manager”? Because you sound like a great match for that role.

  101. Aurion*

    Resumes for volunteering positions vs resumes for jobs: do you write them differently? Often the duties of less specialized volunteering positions are more menial or boring than what you’d look for in jobs, so the usual highlight reel resume makes everyone look overqualified. But volunteering applications often don’t have cover letter equivalents to help pull your enthusiasm and resume together.

  102. EJane*

    I need to rant

    I work at a small company with management that doesn’t have enough teeth. I’m our llama groomer scheduler; our groomers get called on short notice and also have appointments pre-scheduled, so I need to know what’s happening when.
    Our company is small; I’m essentially lower-middle-management.

    One of our groomers, who has had a history of not being entirely reliable, no-showed yesterday. I had to reschedule multiple grooming appointments and generally scramble to keep our clients covered. I was assured by upper management that he would be in today.
    He slacked me, and management, at 1am to say he wouldn’t be.

    He’s lost us entire llama barns due to his no-showing before. That was over a year ago and outside our disciplinary reset cycle, but this is a trend. Middle management and I strongly believe that he should at least be put on disciplinary leave. Upper management is staying quiet. I don’t know what their plan is–
    which would be fine if they had a history of taking disciplinary action instead of tolerating stuff like this.

    At this point I’m more upset with management than the groomer.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Multiple no-shows, significant lost business, and he’s still working for you guys? That’s bananas. Your upper management is embarrassing.

      How much authority do you and middle management have regarding discipline or firing? Obviously it’s not fully in your hands, since you said upper management should have a plan, but… oy. Not to mention having that many tiers of management between employees and those with firing power, which is bad structure even if your upper management were functional.

      1. EJane*

        No real weight. I mostly have weight with UM in the sense that what I have to say about how our clients feel on the day-to-day is valuable, but making direct recommendations would be an overstep. I can be completely candid with our service manager/my direct manager, though.

        I know one of the influencing factors is the fact that the candidate pool in our area is small; we’re close to a major city known for its llama grooming companies, so most people expect big city groomer wages, or simply move down there.

        1. EJane*

          Well. Overstep is a strong word.

          I wouldn’t feel comfortable because I know it’s not what they’ve asked for from me. I doubt they’d actually mind.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Conversely, if your company becomes known for tolerating no-show employees, your CUSTOMERS can easily go to competitors. It is worth documenting and making a business case for replacing this person. Since the Co has a habit of overlooking this problem, I’d suggest a second PIP that includes language that this is the last time this behavior will be firgiven, that future no shows will be grounds for immediate firing. Using that language, a PIP has teeth.
          If you start bringing temp in to cover vacations, you have someone available to cover no-shows and possible firing.

    2. Rey*

      If you don’t have authority to fire him and upper management does nothing, as the scheduler, can you at least decrease the amount that he’s scheduled to work so that it minimizes potential damage? It sounds like you’ve already had to do a lot to clean up the mess he makes with your clients.

      1. EJane*

        Thankfully, yes. I had already underscheduled him for today, not trusting that he would make it in; I also outright told management that I didn’t feel comfortable scheduling him for any external appointments after this. They didn’t disagree.

        I’m simply not scheduling him for Monday. Not out of spite (I’m too tired to be spiteful); just because I can’t rely on him, and we don’t have the resources to rearrange other groomers’ schedules to accommodate a big change of plans.

    3. EJane*

      Additional thought/question:

      The boundaries here are already wrecked; there’s no pretending they’re not (yes, I am job-searching). If I were to say something to upper management, it would be heard and either acknowledged or disregarded, but wouldn’t count against me as an employee.

      I really want to be candid (polite, but candid) and explain that what they choose to do in this situation is going to have a serious impact on how their employees trust them. They wrote out their disciplinary policy, which he is in violation of, and he’s in violation of all rules of common sense. He’s no longer valuable as a resource, because neither I nor the service/project manager can trust him, and it’s more of a drain for us to keep him than to lose him and be short-staffed. Yes, the service manager and I have been pushing for additional hires–but at this point, this isn’t about staffing. It’s about the fact that he has flagrantly disrespected everyone in the office, multiple times, disrespected our clients, demonstrated terrible discipline, and he clearly picks and chooses what he wants to do and when.

      (I think they’re partially hesitating because we’re understaffed and they don’t want to shoot us in the foot, but keeping him around is way more of a risk than firing him, and I don’t know how to effectively communicate why.)

      (This would also be run by the service manager before being said/sent to UM.)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m going to be real and tell you the upper management doesn’t care because it doesn’t effect them [even though you’d think losing accounts would be a loud shouting in their face this guy needs to go]. They see it as you’re able to scramble and fix the issue, so it’s not worth termination. They’re probably just like “Whatever, he’ll leave on his own one day probably.”

        He’s doing this because he gets away with it. It’s pretty typical for people like that who only work when they feel like it. I wonder if he’s got a side gig going on that pays more…seen that over the years.

        The other thing I’d come at this with is “if we do not enforce the policy consistently, we won’t be able to terminate others in the future using this policy.” Also if this guy gets away with it for whatever amount of time, someone sees that, tries it and gets fired. They’ve got a case of discrimination if they happen to be a different protected class as Original Slacker Dude. “The white guy got away with it but they fired the POC for doing it.” kind of thing. Or “They didn’t fire the man who did this but fired the woman to did it.”

        So they’re really screwing themselves over and over again.

        I’d just stop trying to save them from themselves. You did right by not scheduling him and by trying to escape that nonsense! Yuck.

        1. Ejane*

          Honestly, thank you for the reality check. I needed it.
          I have years of experience in actually functional workplaces; it’s good to be reminded to look back at those as the norm instead of this nonsense.

          (I would never actually do this for a multitude of reasons, but part of me is imagining testing that policy, if they don’t fire him, and seeing if they treat me differently. I’m female and disabled, so it would be really… interesting. In an expensive kind of way. For them.)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I completely understand. You are not alone with this swerve of dysfunction when you’re used to companies that were ran in the appropriate way!

            I have a bit of a savior complex myself, so I’m always trying to “save” people/businesses whenever possible. So I can get caught up thinking everyone can be saved. It took me that really hard lesson to remember that they have to want to be saved first! These people are happy to just do an awful job and let the place fall down around their ears.

  103. Maria*

    Hi. Update from last week regarding my administrator.

    The grand boss has decided that she will work exclusively for him.

    I am now sharing another managers administrator. We have discussed what is required eg. My old admin filtered my mail, organised meetings for me without me having to prompt her. Provided reports etc to make my life easier.

    New lady has told me that I need to ask her and that I need to initiate any requirements. She is not prepared to use her initiative or work autonomously. Good thing is that the grand boss has dealt with it but my new admin is not happy with me or the other admin. Don’t know how this is going to work but the atmosphere is tense now.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Wow. I think you are projecting your negativity on New Admin.

          I view someone working at a company for 25 years as a tremendous resource. Think of all the contacts she has, both within the company and with external clients or industry. Use her knowledge of corporate history; she’ll be able provide a lot of insight on how processes came to be and decision were made over time. Respect her expertise; tell her what data you need and let her run the report. If she does reports differently than your previous admin, that doesn’t matter as long at you get the result.

          Again, listen to what New Admin is telling you. She’s asked you for clear work assignments up front. Give them to her. As a manager, your job is to facilitate the work your staff performs. Provide clear due dates, clear instructions, and reasonable working hours.

          Also, keep in mind what I recommended a couple of weeks ago. When sharing staff, stay in touch with the other manager to decide priorities and ensure balanced assignments. Otherwise New Admin will be miserable too.

    2. Purple Rain*

      How long did your previous admin work for you? How long did it take her to know how you wanted your email filtered, which meetings to organize and reports to provide? It sounds like you’re saying your new admin does not have any initiative, but perhaps she is telling you that you need to ask her for these things until she knows what they are, how and when to do them. (Which in a way is showing initiative to get things right for you.) Please don’t expect her to read your mind from day one or you will both be frustrated.

      1. Alianora*

        My thoughts exactly. What does filtering mail and organizing meetings entail? How is she supposed to know you want a meeting with X, Y, & Z people if you don’t tell her? Or what kinds of reports you need? Gotta give her some kind of instructions. What she said does not sound unreasonable at all, based on the context you’ve given here.

    3. Bubbles*

      As an admin, I assure that “filter my mail and organise my meetings without being prompted” is not easy. What are your preferences? Do you prefer meetings to happen in morning or afternoon? Do you like to take your lunch at the same time everyday? Is there a time period where you prefer to not have meetings? Do you have a weekly and/or monthly standing with your boss or a specific client and you prefer to block out a period of time before that standing to be better prepared? Those are the typical questions that get answered over time, when the admin and manager are able to talk frequently. But if you are sharing the admin, it’s going to take more time, and if you aren’t physically next to each other, it will take even longer. The best way to help this new admin is to be explicit in your preferences. Write it down in a Word doc so she can refer back to it frequently and make sure she is doing it properly without having to check in with you.

      1. Ejane*

        This!! You can’t get an accurate idea of an administrator’s capabilities until several weeks in, at LEAST.
        I suspect, as well, that her saying that she needs to be asked to do things means that she knows that poking around, looking for something to do, is a waste of everyone’s time and often backfires. When I was a young EA, I absolutely went fishing for things to do. By the time I was two years in, I knew that the best thing to do was keep my workstation (physical, digital, and mental) tidy so I can jump on whatever I’m asked to do. I can’t imagine the amount of discipline and knowledge that working somewhere for 25 years as an admin brings.
        Give her a list of requests, so she can refer back to it. Be as articulate as you can about how you like things to be done. It sounds like you’ve been expecting her to just KNOW, instead of viewing a new admin-officer relationship as a work in progress, something that needs to be collaborated on and actively encouraged. She is only human.
        (Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit about older women having no patience for bulls***. All of the great EAs I’ve worked under have been the same way.)

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, hang on a minute– she just started to work for you! She has no idea what you want, and her job is to… do what you want. So it makes perfect sense that she wants you to ask her to do certain things and to tell her what your needs are, especially in the beginning. She can’t read your mind, and if she wants to do a good job for you, she doesn’t want to misstep at first. It sounds like you need to be patient in these initial days, but also you need to articulate how you want things done.

      If you need suggestions for that, start by jotting down notes as things come up for a week or two. Then either put those notes in an email to your new admin or sit down with her and go over your notes. And keep in mind that it will take time for both of you– not just your new admin– to get into the right groove.

    5. Ginger Baker*

      As someone who is a very proactive “figure out ways to help on my own” admin, while I definitely agree with the above about how “know what meetings get automatically scheduled” and “filter emails” are not, in fact, easy Day 1 activities, I *also* have a lot of experience that many (many) admins are not very proactive at all and it sounds like that is your concern with your new admin. Which I think can be a very reasonable concern. Some advice on that:

      While you likely cannot get an admin who views their role as completely or almost completely reactive to be more…invested in being proactive, you CAN create some clearer instructions which can still “automate” a number of things for you. This means a lot of upfront work, and some ongoing pushing for a good while, and it won’t be perfect but it can still be better [and if it doesn’t get better, the answer may be a need to hire someone new…]. What that means:
      1) You have to identify each “behind the scenes” thing your previous admin was doing. (This will be an ongoing process that will take a while because by its very nature, much of those tasks were “unseen” by you. It will take a while to reverse engineer them.)
      2) You then need, for each of those, to create an entire flowchart/checklist of what tasks are prompted by the first item on this list. For example: “I forwarded you an email with one word “calendar” in it. I need you to a) read through the email chain to where we set a time for the meeting. b) confirm in the email chain that we did not list an outside location. c) If no other location, reach out to Reception and have them assign room(s) for that time (including reviewing the email to see if participants will be part of the meeting from another city and will need a videoconference). d) Send a meeting invite to all included on the email with the title and location [you should have a separate discussion/document about standardizing meeting titles, whether to list the time with time zone IN the meeting title, etc.]. e) Check that each outside contact on the email is included in your contacts and update information as necessary. [Maybe f) include BD activities on a BD tracker, or other things relevant to your industry/job.] As you create each of these, go over them with her and explain the decision-making that happens at each step and when she should/should not reach out to you to clarify.
      3) Push back. You are going to have to do this a LOT at first, but the goal is to NOT correct things yourself and to instead keep making her re-do until it’s correct. You want, ultimately, to make it easier for her to just get better and do it right than to give you something wrong [and know that you will just fix it]. So for instance, if you said “every time you take a message I need you to 1) email me with the phone number and 2) add that to this call log”, then you need to reply to emails that did not include a number (even if you know it) and say “what’s the phone number?” [and eventually “please make sure to include the phone number every time, even if I have it already”].

      Good luck; I am sure this is frustrating for you, but I am very glad to hear your previous admin will have a hopefully manageable workload now.

      1. Maria*

        Yes this is good advice. My main concern is that I need her to do my administration eg. Update my diary bring urgent matters to my attention, prepare agendas etc. She has templates for all of these but just keeps asking me. For example I chair a weekly meeting and she has always been included in the distribution list but was asking get me for the papers for last week. She also did not want to take the minutes at the meeting as she thinks it is too complex for her. She has way more experience of the company than my previous admin (who is being her helpful self and giving her a handover) but she thinks it is over her pay grade.

        She is also taking it out on my previous admin suggesting that it’s really my previous admin’so job.

        1. Ginger Baker*

          Oh nooooo. No. You need to shut that down right away – has it not been announced that this is the new distribution of support/responsibilities? If it has not, that needs to be Step One before anything else. If there is an admin manager, that person for sure needs to be part of a meeting to review this; otherwise just you and maybe your boss, if the weight of GrandBoss’s word is needed. Step Two once that has been done is to be very very clear: to NewAdmin “I know this has not been something you have been responsible for in the past; I understand that it will be a learning curve. but PreviousAdmin is no longer responsible for it and it has transitioned to being one of your tasks now. Please let me know if you need further guidance on how to handle this task, but it does need to be done by [day] each week. Thanks.” To PreviousAdmin “Thanks so much for all your clear handover notes and support! This has been really helpful and it is really appreciated. I do expect NewAdmin to have some learning curve but it should not take more than a week or two before things mostly settle down. If after [date two weeks out], you are still getting frequent questions from NewAdmin, please let me know and I will handle. Thank you again, you have been really great!”

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Honestly maybe it is more than she’s being paid for. If she is now doubling her workload by supporting twice the number of executives, that is worthy of a promotion, raise, or at least title change.

          1. Flyleaf*

            100% agree. OP no longer has a full time admin, rather it’s now a 50% admin, with the sharing. The volume of work will be less now compared to in the past. OP needs to understand that and update their expectations.

          2. Kat in VA*

            Exactly. I support four executives. If I were told another one was being added to my docket, even on a more limited basis, you bet your butt I’d be asking for a raise at the very least. (The fact that my four executives, percentagewise, take up 90%, 40%, 40%, and 20% of my time definitely factors in and yes I know that does not equal 100%)

      1. Maria*

        Yes and its been like this gorgeous years. They don’t like my old admin as they think she is a know it all. She is not like that but just works really hard.

  104. Lonely Monster*

    I’m a little confused when potential employers ask for a “statement of purpose” or some type of essay asking to be included in the cover letter regarding a candidate’s worthiness (?) To work for them.

    Most of the time I’m not sure what they are looking for or how long of an essay it show be.

    Any clues? Thanks

    1. Veronica Mars*

      In my experience, “statement of purpose” is synonymous for cover letter. Cover letters are about expressing what your qualifications are that might not be immediately evident from your resume. Maybe 2 paragraphs. If you search “cover letter” you should get some great advice from Alison on here, or you can google examples.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        If they’re saying ‘included in the cover letter’ they probably just mean ‘make sure you explain why you want this job and why you’re qualified’ which… hopefully will be covered by any high quality cover letter.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      I second Veronica Mars, and would add this: When I read a cover letter, I am looking for the answer to the question, “Why does it make sense for YOU to have THIS job?” Not why does it make sense for you to have some generic job in general. Not why are you just generally a wonderful human being. But why should we hire YOU for THIS job?

      That usually requires some thinking about why this job is the next logical step in your career journey or why you have some particular area of knowledge or expertise that would be expressed well in this environment, etc.

      1. Lonely Monster*

        Thanks, for the clarification. I wasn’t sure how “in-depth” I needed to be. I’ve used Allison’s suggestions for a great cover letter, but I’ve been asked twice for a separate statement of purpose, so I was sure if my cover letter was missing something or if it was just something employers started doing?

  105. Killer Queen*

    Breakthrough! After several months of active job searching/applying and a few phone interviews, I just got a second round interview at a place I feel excited about and for a job I feel confident I could do well. I felt a lot of anxiety about returning to work after the holidays at this job, but now feel much more optimistic – and it’s actually motivating me a bit more at the job that I’ve felt severely unmotivated at, because I realized that whenever I DO leave, I want to leave things in good shape, with my projects nearly done, or at least the path clear to those who would take over my projects. I think it even gave me a confidence boost in applying for OTHER jobs – just to know that someone thinks I’m promising enough for a second-round. To the rest of you dissatisfied and job seeking, I hope you have a similar breakthrough soon!

  106. Quaremie*

    A lot of you answered my question last week about how to get the most out of one on ones with the employees that I manage. Everyone’s feedback was awesome, and so far the meetings are going very well. However, some of my upcoming meetings are with the people on my team who are the lower performers. I have spent a lot of time working with these people, and in some cases, putting them on a PIP and bringing them through the other side stronger. My question is that some of the lower performers have, in the past, told me of their desire to get into a very highly competitive training course that my institution offers which would be a direct line to senior management. Although I said that these people are lower performers, my entire team is very good and so I would say that these people are now a solid eight out of 10. It in the cards for them to be promoted from Llama Wrangler I to Llama Wrangler II or eventually III. But they want to be on the fast track to the VP of the Llama Department, and I know for a fact that that will never happen in my institution. Potentially complicating things are the fact that at least one of my very high performers wants to get into the same training program. It’s a highly competitive program, so even with my endorsement there’s no guarantee that person would get in, but it’s a lot more likely. When this topic comes up in their one on ones, what do I say? I know they will not get accepted to our program. My thought is to talk to them about additional training or skills we could find for them in their current position, to satisfy their desire for additional learning and responsibilities, and get them that Llama Wrangler II position. I don’t want to kill their dreams, but I don’t want to lead them on to think that they can get into this other position. I could tell them to go ahead and apply, but be warned that it’s extremely competitive and just let the chips fall where they may after they don’t get accepted- that way, they’ll feel like they at least tried. But It seems like a waste of their energy. Any tips on wording I could use?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      I personally with my staff would say something more along the lines of “That’s an excellent goal to have. You will need to hit a number of steps along the way, including Llama Wrangler II, so I think the best way to move towards VP is for us to focus on you getting there, first.” Treat it as a step along the way, rather than an alternative. If they ask why, explain that all candidates for the VP role need a really strong background in x and y; without the job experience, they’re unlikely to make the short list.

      1. Lana Kane*

        Co-signed. You’re managing expectations this way while still providing them the info they will need to have if they are serious about it.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      My friend who has been out of the workforce for years got a job! It is an extremely low paying job, but also low stress and a good work environment (think small local retail store). Thankful that someone took a chance on her! And she is getting good experience, which will help if she decides to move on at some point. Just happy!

    3. sheep jump death match*

      I would be really upset and a little humiliated if my manager let me apply for, and be rejected from, a high-visibility training program that they knew I wouldn’t get into for a role that “would never happen” for me. It’s not killing their dreams to give them a reality-based assessment of their career trajectory at your firm.

      This isn’t like encouraging your tone-deaf friend to try out for American Idol; this is making sure they have enough information to make informed decisions about their careers. You have a responsibility as their manager to have this kind of tough conversation with them.

  107. Legally a Vacuum*

    So I want to use my job’s educational benefit (improve resume, enjoying learning something new, all of the reasons).

    I’m an in-house lawyer at a consumer goods company. Any approved program needs to be applicable to my current job in some way. Because of what I do, I can make the case for some programming courses, but other than that I’m not sure what courses might be useful for me.

    I already have full access to PLI, so I’m looking for non-legal continuing education options.

    Thoughts on continuing education for lawyers?

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      compliance/business courses might be useful too. also whatever could help you understand the company/how it works better.

    3. Flyleaf*

      General business (anything you might find in an MBA program), data analysis, leadership, presentation skills, mentoring, coaching, talent assessment, graphic design/visualization, …

    1. fposte*

      Depends on what else is on there. But I wouldn’t put it as a standalone line unless I had at least, oh, 20 hours or so worked there, whether it’s been an hour a week for 20 weeks or 5 hours weekly for the last month.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I recommend limiting it to those that you do on a recurring basis – leave the one time only stuff off. Length is less important, unless you JUST started, say, the day before or something extreme. If you’ve made a commitment, share it!

  109. Wyatt Earp*

    For 6 years I was a stay at home mom. About a year ago I started working as a substitute teacher although I do not have a teaching degree as my state only requires 60 college credits to get a short term sub license. Before becoming a SAHM I mainly worked as an office receptionist. What exactly should I list as my job duties on my resume? Most people probably have a preconceived notion as a sub teacher just being a glorified babysitter.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you shoot off your daily stuff for being a sub? Unless we have other subs floating around here [we probably do, we’re diverse] I think it’ll help you and us with some wording if you give us a bullet points of your tasks?

      Since I do think of subs as just being the person there to make sure the kids don’t choke on something or one another, you know. In my experience as a kid, y’all just swoop in and say “I’m the teacher today. Here’s an old SNL to watch that your teacher said is appropriate for what you’re learning today [history teacher was delightful like that.]”

      Do you actually do a lesson plan or review process? Or is it all “Today we are reading chapter 7 and doing the quiz at the end. Don’t murder one another, kids.”

    2. amanda_cake*

      For your sub work, did you work as a long term sub in one classroom or were you subbing all over the place?

      1. Wyatt Earp*

        I sub all over the place. Mainly at the elementary level where I do actually have to teach. I know most of the teachers very well so they know that I am actually able to teach the students, so they leave me with a basic plan and I expand on that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I think is critical and that’s what you have to play up. That you’re actually working with established lesson plans and expanding on it, while also instructing students.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Have you gone through Alison’s resume writing recommendations? She suggests a different approach–not a list of duties, but a list of successes and achievements.

  110. Despairing editor*

    I bet I’m the only person that’s been sent a drawing of a vulva today (for purely work purposes). Or maybe it’s not a vulva. Or maybe it is. I could ask the artist, but I feel if you have to ask…

    I now have to decide whether vulvas are on brand for our publication.

    1. BJK*

      I am here for this!!! LOL.

      (Let us know what you decide! I’m thinking Georgia O’Keeffe would approve.)

    2. Going Anonymous for this one*

      Oh I feel for you. We have a print like that hanging in the new wing. Most people walk by it and don’t blink… but most people here are technical. The fine arts major who worked here when we got the first tour of the space? She burst out laughing. It makes me a little nervous when bringing in new people.

  111. amanda_cake*

    I am a school librarian. It is winter here and I have always been a hot natured person. I have a coat or a sweater with me, but I don’t wear it to drive because I feel like I can’t move. I don’t bother to put it on for the short walk from the car to the front door. Every morning I walk into the school, sign in, and head to check my teacher mailbox… where the janitor sits drinking his morning coffee. Every morning, I get a lecture about how I am going to get sick from the cold weather, how I am going to have arthritis one day from the cold, blah blah blah. I have tried saying that I’m not worried about it and then I have to hear about how I should be. I’ve tried stating that I’m 26 years old and I’ve managed to dress myself and stay alive for this long, so I’m sure I’ll be all right. I’ve even told him that I can’t drink all bundled up and it isn’t worth it to put all that stuff on just to walk from the car to the door…

    I don’t know how to get him to stop, but I wish I could because it just really irks my nerves for some reason. I know it is ridiculous, but I can’t get him to lay off and he’s a nice old guy, so I don’t want to hurt his feelings.

    Any advice? I really need to check my mail in the morning, so it is impossible to avoid him.

    1. Profane Pencils*

      I would either trying being more curt (“I can take care of myself”) or smiling absently at him and saying “I need to get on with my day, sorry” and not sticking around to hear him out. If he says something about you being rude, you could respond with “Oh, I’m sorry. I really do need to get on with my day–and I am able to dress myself appropriately for my needs, but thank you for your concern.”

      1. valentine*

        I enjoy our chats, Jeremiah, but you need to stop saying my clothing is insufficient. I would love to come in tomorrow and discuss just the weather, school, or what we’re reading. How does that sound?

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      A smile and “have a nice day”. Be polite, but I wouldn’t even acknowledge the remarks about the jacket, the weather. Be friendly (which is unassailable) then get your mail and go.

      Good luck!

    3. Reba*

      I would just not reply to comments along these lines any more. As if you didn’t hear them. You are magically deaf to sentences containing the words “coat,” “freezing,” or “joint pain.” Say hello, grab mail, exit.

      If that seems too cold (!) another strategy is to cheerfully agree with the criticizer: “yep, I’m cold! Will probably lose a limb to frostbite soon! Ta ta!”

    4. GigglyPuff*

      Well I’d probably take the non-confrontational way, cause I’m that way, and drop my stuff off at my office/area before checking the mail. That way he’s not seeing you carry the coat. But this sounds super annoying, wish I could help with something to say. Or maybe be like “what are you talking about? I took the coat off when I got inside.” (if he can’t see you outside)

    5. fposte*

      I’m a “let it go” vote. This is his version of “Hello, amanda_cake.” If you had, say, fiery red hair you’d hear about that every damn time instead. I like a cheerful “Ah, you know me, Bob,” for situations like this, because it’s so wonderfully meaningless and yet somehow contributory.

    6. Banana Bum*

      This is just one of those things where people are trying to make conversation. It’s like convo ping pong. Someone says hello or makes the same comment everyday, they’re just looking for a response. I’ve found that out of all the weird things that annoy people at work, half of it is just really not that annoying and not worth getting yourself worked up over. It’s easier to accept that this janitor is going to mention this every morning and what harm is it to you? Accept that he’ll say it, continue to respond in the same manner or make shit up. He’s just looking for a convo.

      There’s a lady at my office who walks by my desk a few times a day and at least 2-3 times a week will comment on how long my husband and I have been married and if it feels any different now that we are. She’s just looking for some small talk :)

    7. Autumnheart*

      Just say “Morning, Bob!” and keep walking. You don’t need to engage in this repetitive defense of your internal thermostat.

    8. AnotherJD*

      You haven’t actually asked him to stop. Start there. “Bob, you comment every day on how I dress in cold weather. Please stop.”

    10. Auntie Social*

      “Well, I’ve made okay it this far. But if any part of me falls off I will let you know so you can sweep it up. Now I’m changing the subject for good.”

    11. Retail not Retail*

      Convo this week on a chilly morning of a warm day – “why don’t you have a coat on?” “Why do you have a machete?”

      This may only work if he has a machete but it did shut him up. (I know why he had a machete)

      Polite ignoring him, vague smile and walk away is probably more practical.

  112. BJK*

    Is there seriously no way to send OOO/auto-replies to external contacts only in Outlook?!

    I see you can do external only for those in your contacts, but why can we not exclude those IN our organization only? Grrr!!!

    1. Amber Rose*

      I think you have to do it through rules. You can set up a rule that anyone emailing you gets a certain reply and exclude certain groups.

    2. Jules the First*

      I thought you could do it from the desktop client? I’m pretty sure I’ve done it before.

  113. dinoweeds*

    Story time…

    Due to some DVR upgrades at work, our wifi got all out of wack and I was unable to get my laptop to connect to my printer/scanner yesterday – which is a huge inconvenience. So, I call our nice IT guy and he remotes in to my laptop to see what’s going on. The very first thing he does is try to go to Google to run a speed test on our wifi, but his fingers were off on the keyboard and he accidentally typed the domain name for a porno site that rhymes with Google. All of the sudden very graphic photos of naked people were all over my screen! He closed the window as fast as he could, but not before I got quite an eyeful. I died laughing and he was super mortified and apologetic about it. I told him that he had made my day and I’ve honestly been laughing about it ever since.

  114. Narwhal*

    Sick/Attendance policy question:

    We have an employee who no-showed yesterday, and gave extremely late notice today without a satisfactory explanation. (“I’m going to be out” sent via slack at 1am.) Our sick policy allows same-day notification, and reserves the right to request a doctor’s note.
    If the very late/no-explanation-offered event were standalone, we’d ask for a reason, accept “I’m sick” and move on.
    Since this is directly after a no-show, we’re unsure whether to treat it as a second no-show, or ask him for an explanation and allow it to be weighted differently.

    Thoughts?

    1. amanda_cake*

      I’d get the explanation and then decide, but… I might change my answer if I had issues with this employee before this situation.

      1. Kathenus*

        Agreed. And then set clear expectations going forward for what notification/information is required, and what the consequences are for not providing it so that there’s no lack of clarity in the future.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      I can think of a legit possibility for the slack message and no-show – hospitalization? Granted, I didn’t no-show, but if I’d been in more pain or had been unconscious in the ER, I might have forgotten to call my admin supervisor at 1AM when I knew I wasn’t going to be at work at 6:30AM in a clinical area.

      1. Narwhal*

        This is very true. The first day, after he said he would be in a bit late and then he never showed, we ended up calling our contacts at the local sheriff’s office to see if there had been an accident involving a car like his (it’s an uncommon model in our area).
        We did ask if he was okay when he finally reached out that afternoon, and he said yes… he’s had ample opportunity and yet hasn’t provided context for two days in a row.

  115. QueenoftheCats*

    Just wanted to celebrate that I will be starting a new job next week! I’m so excited!

    I hope other job neophytes find this blog and use its wonderful resources. :)

  116. Super anon today*

    A pair of abandoned undies was apparently found in an unused office in our building. Facilities was summoned and removed them. I am sure we’ll never know any details because NO ONE is going to come forward and claim them, I am sure.

      1. Super anon today*

        It’s amazing and I am still marveling over it (and feeling for the poor facilities person who got that assignment).

    2. Even More Anon Today*

      In high school/beginning of college, I worked at a country club. It was a rowdy bunch, and I had a huge crush on this one guy. Everyone hanging out after hours one night and eventually, everyone left but me and this guy. We ended up in the pool, and somehow I came to work the next morning and our manager was asking very specifically if anyone reported a 34DD bra missing form the day before. Everyone knew it had to be mine, and it is something I have never lived down and still brings us to tears every time we reminisce about it.

      Sooo long story short, I can totally understand the horror your anonymous coworker is feeling right now.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        “still brings us to tears”?

        Is this your way of saying you ended up marrying the guy?

      4. Even More Anon Today*

        Totally meant to come back and check on this, and then forgot the username I used, and then forgot altogether. By “we” I meant my girlfriends and who I worked with at the time and I, unfortunately not Pool Guy. Sorry to disappoint!

        Would love to hear the dildo stuck to the ceiling story. Relatively new to AAM so maybe I missed out on a good one!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Chances are they were stuck in someone’s pant leg and either that person didn’t realize it or was too embarrassed to pick them up. But the scenarios are limitless!

      1. Super anon today*

        This was my thought, but they were apparently sitting on a table, not on the floor! I have done the undies-in-the-pant-leg thing myself but it doesn’t sound that way here.

        1. valentine*

          This is when you want a PA with plenty of feedback to enhance your request that the owner of the “Santa’s Helper” intimate apparel swing by your office to claim them.

    5. Librarian of Many Hats*

      This reminds me of the time myself and a bunch of other librarians were discussing the weirdest things we’ve ever found in the book drop.

      The winner was uncooked bacon.

        1. Librarian of Many Hats*

          Actually, it might have been that they found the bacon IN A BOOK. Can’t remember exactly.

          For me, it was a roll of thankfully unused toilet paper in the book drop.

    6. Extra anonymous today.*

      I just want to see the Facilities log entry for the task. “Removed underpants.” And later, perhaps in a different color of ink, for clarification, “from floor of empty office”.

  117. Anon for this*

    So I’m part of the Big Bank Merger ™. Obviously things are unstable and no one at my individual contributor level has been told whether or not we’ll still have jobs. I’ve been here for several years and restructured to a new role last year. I feel ready to make a move for promotion potential, or a lateral move out of banking.
    Problem is I had a death in the family late last year and the advice is not to make major changes at this time. The merger is bringing changes out of my control though. I’d already considered working with a recruiter. Your thoughts?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      I think you should go ahead and look for other jobs. You have very solid, concrete reasons for doing so that aren’t “feel lost/doing something different” which I think is part of where the advice comes from. You don’t have to take a new job, but becoming unemployed would also be a major change and if that happens, you will be glad you started.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Exactly. You’re not making a major change out of nowhere, say to avoid grieving which I think is what that advice is usually about. Things are changing anyway, you were ready before, and if you feel ready and able now to look for something new, you should go for it. And sorry for your loss.

    2. New Job So Much Better*

      Left my last job when they announced the bank merger, and our bank president had not negotiated a position for anyone but himself. You should definitely start looking, sorry.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you. I feel like my company’s the red-headed stepchild despite how they’re trying to spin it.
        Plus the death was an elderly parent after a long illness, rough but not a shock.

    3. Policy wonk*

      The recommendation to not make major changes for a year is to be sure you are not acting out of grief or emotion. That is not the situation here – you aren’t seeking a job change because you cannot face the constant reminders of the deceased, or that person always wanted you to do x – it is being foisted on you. So yes, look for a new job, but make sure you are making choices with your brain, not your emotions.
      I’m sorry for your loss. Good luck in your search.

  118. Anonymous Poachee*

    So, I’ve been at my current company about 3 years and have consistently gotten raises/promotions and am reasonably happy where I am (decent salary, good benefits, PTO, etc). People I work with also regularly joke about how I can never leave and they don’t know what they would do without me. However, one of my coworkers is friends with our (now former) manager who left a couple of months ago, and mentioned to me that she just had a position open up (similar role to my current role) at her new company and would like to hire me. They said the position hasn’t even been posted yet, but she thought of me right away. I don’t have a lot of details from my coworker other than it’s a smaller company in our industry and has good benefits. Coworker was asking what factors would be important to me (pay, benefits, etc.), so I get the sense that maybe they wouldn’t be as competitive on pay, but maybe they would make up for it in other ways? I guess my question is, would it be worth exploring if I’m already fairly happy where I am and if so, how would I go about that? I’ve never been in this kind of situation before. My main concern is that I would be giving up seniority at my current company (including the extra PTO and such that goes along with that).

    1. Me*

      You can go and see what they’d offer however I’m assuming that you are currently in a job with a good relationship with your coworkers and a good culture fit. These things important.

    2. Alianora*

      Worth finding out about it, at least. You don’t have to say yes. I would think about what it would take to get you to move. Then keep those requirements in mind when you talk to her about the job.

    3. Fikly*

      I’d look into it, but stop talking to coworker (they work for your current employer, yes?). Talk to the person actually offering this potential position. Too much opportunity for mixed messages.

  119. Tell me this ends okay!*

    I am almost certainly going to be quitting my job without another one lined up. (There are a variety of reasons for this, but the primary one is that doing so creates a level of flexibility in terms of the timing and length of my window to find either a new position either externally or internally that I wouldn’t have if I waited until I had another offer in hand. I know that sounds insane, but it has to do with my institution’s obligation to hold my position or not; if I let them waive that right, they let me waive time limitations on my internal search.)

    ANYWAY, all that is to say that I would appreciate hearing some things that will make me less freaked out about this, because even though I hate 90% of my job, the fear of not having a job at all really feels equally awful right now!

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      I don’t have a similar story at all, but if you’ve thought about this I hope it works out well for you! Good luck :)

      Not necessarily related, but when my now-husband was once laid off from a job, he took a job at the first place he got an interview at 4 days later, and then hated the job. It’s not always worth the rush to the first new thing if you have enough of a savings cushion to give yourself some time for a more thoughtful search!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’ve done this and I only wish I’d done it sooner. Oldjob was making me absolutely miserable and physically sick, I was dry heaving on the way to work and crying almost constantly. I held on because I thought quitting without something lined up was Not Done. But leaving gave me time to get healthy again and spend actual time on a job hunt looking for a good fit and not just the first offer tossed my way. Honestly I’ve gotten laid off from bad places before and having the space to job hunt freely and breathe and not worry about maintaining a job I hated at the same time was always more successful for me.

      You can do it!

  120. Moi*

    After job searching for a long time I just started a new job with great pay and great hours. A few hours after I finished orientation I got an offer for a fantastic job that I couldn’t resist refuse. Ive been trying to work both but it’s not working. Can I quit job a without burning bridges?

    1. Autumnheart*

      You can quit the great job for the fantastic job. Since you only finished orientation, I would do it ASAP before you are assigned any official duties, so that they can go back and bring back other candidates. It might burn the bridge with this company–hard to say. You’re gonna have to decide whether the fantastic job is worth that.

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        Agreed, be really apologetic and say that you understand if this stings, because it likely will. The thing is though, it does happen! People do leave jobs right after they start if something better comes through. A comms person left a month into her contract appointment with an office in my research division because she got an offer for government position elsewhere that she’d thought was a lost cause when she accepted the original job – it burned, but they ultimately understood.

        Congratulations on the offer from fantasticjob!

    2. Flyleaf*

      You will likely burn the bridge. That’s just something you will need to accept. I wouldn’t re-hire someone who quickly left for something better, and I’d discourage colleagues from hiring also.

  121. Me--Blargh!*

    Interview yesterday for an entry-level admin position in a large corporate law firm in a fancy downtown building, and assuming I can do well on pay, I want it. It’s hourly with little overtime, the benefits are outstanding, and they are committed to training this person above new hire orientation (I’m new to legal, though not to admin work). I hope and pray it pays enough for me to live in the city; I have my eye on a specific neighborhood. I do not want to stay in the boonies and drive in. It will be a couple of weeks before I know if they’re moving forward. Please please please please please. I need all the breaks.

    Oh, and by the way, I did release my book on Amazon. Just the ebook right now; I’m waiting for a paperback proof to arrive so I can check it before I let that run free. Both the inside layout and the cover are all my own work (although nothing looks good on a Kindle, even if you use their software). Of course, you know I’ll find a typo, lol. I gained a few skills in GIMP, too. There is nothing like actually doing the work to learn how to do it. I should have mentioned that in the interview — damn!

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I hope so. I applied to this place while I was still in OldCity and got a call from the recruiter, who asked me if I would be interested in a different position, but that one involved a lot of accounting. We talked about how that wasn’t a great fit for me. When I saw this one, I thought, oh, well I could apply again and see what happens. That’s how I got my last job — I’d interviewed twice for two different things and they hired me on the second one.

        Two things that might work in my favor:

        1. It’s entry-level work, and I said I was totally fine with that since I’m new to the field. But I’m also very experienced in office work in general, which means I could learn stuff pretty fast and may also give me some leverage in pay negotiations. Plus, the hiring manager said she liked people who took notes in training. I’m all, “I do that all the time; why would someone not take notes,” etc.

        2. I can start IMMEDIATELY. As in NOW. I would have to drive back and forth at first, but I also let them know I plan to move up to the city when I get a job there, which implies, of course, that weather won’t be a commute issue (there is public transport and they have a commuter and parking benefit).

        Ugh, since I’m talking about it nothing will happen.

    5. MechanicalPencil*

      Girl. What is this book name or how do I find it? I need something new to read.

      And I have everything crossed I possibly can and will lit a candle for you.

  122. Beth Anne*

    Has anyone looked at the new W-4 form? What does everyone think? I’m sure those of us that work in HR/payroll have seen it. Only new employees have to fill it out right now but I’m guessing eventually everyone will have to fill it out. It looks like they are trying to prevent people from getting huge refunds.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That was my first thought as well, along with trying to avoid people getting huge tax bills too since I have seen plenty of numbers of exemptions being way too high.

      It makes sense though, those refunds cost money to issue.

      I find it difficult for people who aren’t computer savvy though and I foresee a lot of struggles to get used to it when it’s the new normal. But I don’t think they’ll ever make everyone update theirs, that would be too much of a burden on the public. They’ll eventually be weeded out as people move jobs and retire. The payroll system already gives me the option to do either Old Version or New Version as of the first payroll of this year.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I just looked at it. Step 4, option c is extra withholding. Realistically, done properly, the old W-4 would have resulted in withholding right around tax due. But no one ever did it properly, and it wasn’t laid out to make it easy to do properly.

      1. Coverage Associate*

        Depending on your tax situation, anything prospective can be hard. Itemizing was just barely advantageous to us last year, but with one of our therapists taking paternity leave this year, we might not itemize. But there’s still charitable giving…

    3. HR- Occam's Razor*

      Looked at it and dreading this first year. We do a lot of seasonal hiring for our Alaska seafood plants, there’s going to be a lot of questions and coaching through it.
      Fortunately existing workers don’t have to adjust unless they choose to change withholding on there own.

    5. Enough*

      Seen it and did some calculations comparing 2019 to 2020 tax wise and there is a big difference in tax withheld. About $80 on a biweekly paycheck of $1340 gross.

  123. Eillah*

    A work email I did not expect to read today:

    Hi Ladies, I have an interesting act to bring to your attention. I received a call from Katrina from Facilities about this. I’m not sure why someone would do this but it’s happening often on your floor. Understanding that our employees outside of your teams as well as people external to our company have access to the restrooms on 37, we seem to believe, as it has occurred more than once, that the likely culprit is a resident of the floor.

    If you can pass this onto your teams and let them know that this is an unacceptable issue and should be stopped, it would be appreciated.

    ~Angela

    Katrina’s note:

    It brought to my attention that a client on the 37th floor goes to the ladies restroom after lunch everyday and uses the 4th stall, grabbing a bunch of toilet seat covers, using them then throwing them in the small trash can that’s for tampons and pads.

    When the Ladies restroom was checked during lunch The little trash can was empty. Please alert all users of the ladies room these seat covers are to be used for commode protection only. The basket in the stall is for use of tampons and/or pads only.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wait, I’m so confused at what’s happening here, the wording is throwing me off.

      So someone is using multiple seat covers to do their business on the toilet. Then taking the cover off and putting in in the hazardous waste basket next to the seat, instead of flushing it?

      Or using them to wipe and throwing them in there!? This is so unclear as to what’s happening to me, what is going on??

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I’m confused. Is the problem that someone is wasting all the seat covers? Or that they’re filling up the trash can? Because it seems like Katrina is concerned about the trash can getting filled too quickly.

    3. valentine*

      What’s needed is a sign in that stall saying, “Please flush seat covers or place in outer waste bin. Stall bins are for pads/tampons only.”

  124. Anon Dreamer*

    I had a sex dream about my mentor.
    I think the world of him as a person, he’s one of those people everyone gravitates to in the room at a party. And he’s conventionally attractive and close in age to me.

    But I am very happily married and until this dream happened, I never gave him a second thought outside of the work context.

    I’m feeling super creeped out by my subconscious and I don’t know what to do. Now I feel super awkward every time I talk to him and keep wondering if my intentions approaching him are truly pure???

    1. Profane Pencils*

      Brains are JERKS. I would honestly view it as a stupid brain blip, remind yourself that dreams are not indicative of desires (or I would apparently have a deep desire to save the world by speaking with whales and defeating evil militias, which would be very cool but is not indicative of what I actually value when I’m awake), and breathe through it. When you start to feel creeped out by your subconscious, I would say aloud or very clearly in your mind, “Dreams are ridiculous. This isn’t how I feel” or something along those lines, whatever works for you, and then consciously think about something e l s e.

      It’s called bouncing your thoughts, and is surprisingly effective.

      1. Anon Dreamer*

        Thanks haha. Brains ARE jerks.

        It’s like, well, great, thanks brain, I could have blissfully gone the rest of my life never thinking of the dynamic with this dude but now I’ll have to actively work to avoid overanalyzing.

    2. Another Millenial*

      Don’t worry! Dreams are abstract, so sex doesn’t necessarily mean “I’m attracted to this person.” I dream a lot about stairs–which I feel neither one way nor the other about.

    3. Alex*

      First of all, dreams and brains are weird and just because you have a sex dream about someone really doesn’t mean all that much.

      Second of all, even if you did have a bit of a crush on him or found him attractive…well that’s just normal life and it doesn’t mean you aren’t happily married, etc. Just remember that no matter how much you think your attraction is showing….it’s probably not. Your awkwardness is most likely just inside your own head. Acknowledge it (in your own head!) and move on.

      I totally have a giant crush on someone at work and it has inspired me to do my best work ever, lol….and I don’t feel bad about it.

    4. Autumnheart*

      I had a dream once where I got busy with Viggo Mortensen, as we flew about 100 feet above ground through town in a flying saucer.

      Dreams don’t have to mean anything.

    5. Ginger Baker*

      Dreams are weird, I’ve had them about kittens nursing on me and I promise it’s not because I actually want to be a cat/birth kittens/have kittens nursing from me in ANY way, shape or form.

      FWIW lots of crushes are essentially misplaced admiration that, especially because of societal upbringing, our brains weirdly conflate with sex because we default “yes like this person!” to “sexually interested!” alllll the time even when it’s more like “I love how they treat their kids and want to be that in my own parenting” or “YES BOSS WOMAN is totally who I want to grow up into!!!” etc. etc.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      You’re probably fine and it means nothing. I saw some article about sex dreams meaning you admire someone or they have qualities you want for yourself, but I had one once about a dude in my college choir whom I couldn’t stand. So that doesn’t really scan.

      Brains are like whirling blenders at night while they’re sorting out stuff. They make the weirdest smoothies imaginable.

  125. Rikki Tikki Tarantula*

    Question about college majors and careers.

    So my kid is a junior in HS and just took the PSATs (did well), so the college selection process has begun. Right now he’s leaning toward an administration of justice type of degree (was thinking of being a lawyer but doesn’t think he could manage law school, and I agree with that). However, he really loves history, and I was wondering what one can do with a history degree. Teaching is an obvious career, but are there any others?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I was a history major and I’m an archives assistant. He would need an MLIS to be an actual archivist, though, and assistant jobs are thin on the ground, I’m afraid. It’s not a major I would recommend without a plan to keep going academically.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Any general office career that is looking for a general bachelor’s degree! I have a totally nonpractical liberal arts degree and have spent the last 25 years in a field I barely knew existed when I was in college. The white collar working world is very varied and mostly it doesn’t matter what your major was.

      1. EJane*

        This. I have a psychology degree and was also an executive assistant; I’m currently working as a dispatcher. What matters is the critical thinking and discipline college imparts; outside of specialized fields like math or engineering, the degree itself largely doesn’t matter.

      2. Entry-level Marcus*

        Yep. People generally overstate how important your college major is (unless he majors in a professional degree, think accounting or engineering). The fact is that most people don’t work in fields that are directly related to their degree.

      3. Reba*

        Strongly agree! I try to tell all young people this: unless it’s a licensed profession, your major truly does not matter. Choose something that makes you think and will motivate you enough to keep going through the end.

      4. Llama Wrangler*

        In addition, in the US many people’s majors change once they start college. Within the liberal arts, he will probably be taking some core classes before he starts in major classes, and in non-pre-professional degree programs, he can likely have two full years of coursework shopping around (and researching possible careers) before he settles on what he wants to do. That’s a great time to do more research about what he likes and what he might do with his degree.

    4. Grace*

      History degree here (UK) and six months out of university – data entry/analysis for a B2B subscription-based platform. Entry for the first few months, now being trusted to venture into the analysis aspect.

      They asked that you have a degree (not necessarily in business) and then did end up discussing it in interviews – I talked a lot about my dissertation, particularly the data entry and analysis of the quantitative aspect, how I dealt with sometimes needing to do repetitive tasks that required focus, time management, etc.

      Being able to go “Here’s something I really messed up on (hello, not confirming what my data told me before basing my plans on inaccurate assumptions), here’s how I fixed it, and here’s how I prevented it from happening again and how I would have done it differently.” is very useful. Lots of things let you do that, but I found that a history degree is definitely one of them.

      I’ve always known that I’ve never wanted to go into teaching, so I spent a lot of time looking at alternatives whilst enjoying the hell out of doing a degree I loved. Big winners, at least in the UK, are finance/banking, PR, law, regulations/compliance, third sector work, publishing. Work directly related to history, like museums, is very low on the list.

    5. Catsaber*

      He could also do a double-major or a minor in history, which would be helpful to allow him to pursue his passion but maybe have another major that could be more marketable in certain fields. This is not to dissuade him against a full History BA if that is what he wants.

      I have an English BA and I work in the database management team at a university. I love it. Part of what makes me a valuable employee are my communication and critical thinking skills – I’ve got decent technical skills/experience, but my other skills are really helpful in working with different teams and campus units, and I am good at bridging the gap between the really technical people and the non-technical people. I credit those skills to my degree, and my awesome professors. I got into this role by starting at the help desk, basically. So whatever he decides to do, a History BA can provide some really valuable skills that can make him a real asset in various roles.

    6. Allypopx*

      There’s a ton of work in historical nonprofits! I’ve spent most of my career working in history and I’m not even a history major.

    7. LDN Layabout*

      My friend did history and is now doing public affairs work. my coworker did history and now does data analysis.

      There’s a lot you can do with history, since many career paths want a generic degree. He’ll only be blocked out of the career paths where degrees have to be career specific or sector specific (e.g. some jobs can require a ‘heavily numerical’ degree)

    8. blink14*

      I have a history degree, and it can really be applicable to a lot of job types. You learn and refine research, writing, reading, data interpretation, and organizational skills which all can be translated to many different types of jobs from traditional office roles to museums and government work, plus there are tons of academia jobs that a history degree is great background for.

      I’ve done a variety of administrative temp jobs, I worked in property management for several years, and have been at a university for awhile now in a research related role.

    9. LibGuideMeIntoTheWeekend*

      I have a history degree & work full time as a librarian, and everyone here has valid suggestions, but I’d humbly suggest exploring further. What is it about history that he loves? Is it the dissemination of knowledge and sharing what he’s learned? Maybe teaching. Is it the research process? Sure, maybe librarianship, these are obvious, but are there actual topics that excite him that might lead to less obvious career paths?

      For example, if he’s really interested in food history and/or the history of pandemics and plagues, maybe he’s actually interested in public health.

      Does he love tracing the development of technology and how modern cities have become what they are? Maybe he’s into civil engineering.

      Is he really interested in the way home life changed to deal with war rations, etc? That could be any number of assistance-based service careers.

      Does he love natural history? He could work in national parks! Or with animal rescues. Etc, etc.

      History is generally interesting don’t get me wrong, and I think getting a degree in it really strengthened my critical thinking and affected my outlook on life and the world in a positive way, but “history” is sooooo broad. It’s very likely that he really likes ~something~, enough to want to know everything about it and its history. There might be undiscovered passions he could explore!

    10. Fikly*

      Pretty much anything. Even if he decides to get a STEM grad degree, as long as he uses his non-major courses to cover pre-reqs, it’ll be fine.

  126. Crazy pants hat*

    So… I learned that I’m about 20k underpaid. I kinda knew that but didn’t really want to deal with it or acknowledge it because I’m afraid to advocate for myself. The thing is, even though I can know these things, my feelings keep getting in the way, so much so that I feel like just giving up on my career in it’s entirety. I mean, why experience more frustration and do more and better work than my counterparts for less recognition and pay? The solution to that is to advocate but the thought makes me sick and depressed. Which then, makes me think maybe I suck at my career and every objective measurement is some kind of grandiose lie that only applies to me.

    Well that’s a perfectly screwed up thought process. I get it. But how do I get past it? Can I? Should I?

    1. fposte*

      I’m a yes vote on the last. Advocating for ourselves, in any capacity, is one of the nicest things we can do for us. It’s also an action, and I think the spiral you’re dealing with is one of inaction–it’s the old fetal position of doom.

      Not that I don’t get where you’re coming from! I don’t have many hills to die on because I don’t even like clambering up the stupid things; it’s just not where my energy feels rewarded. But I think there’s reward even in the act itself of self-advocacy because you’re owning your right to say what you deserve. Can you think through a little bit of why it feels so difficult? Is it impostor syndrome, fear of consequences, something else? Sometimes identifying the specifics of nameless dread helps make them more manageable.

      1. Crazy pants hat*

        That statement about energy being rewarded is so true for me.

        I reflected on some of the fears you mentioned and my answers were not good so I think I’m going to go look for a therapist…

        Thank you for your time and insight – I really appreciate it!

    2. Hello It's Me*

      If you’re that underpaid, you’ll probably have to get a new job, IMO. I was the lowest-paid person in a company I worked for, even UNDER the budget they set. They wouldn’t give me a raise to match my coworkers because they already gave me a raise (so that at least I would be within the normal range that HR required).

    3. Popoorme*

      I recommend speaking with a therapist to work on your low self esteem and self worth.

      I was chronically underpaid and so I disclosed this to a friend who recommended a therapist. It only took 3 appointments to really figure out I needed to ask what I was worth and, after a company wide salary assessment, they needed to double my salary. Of course they didn’t do that but I did leave the company and got a 50% pay bump elsewhere. So it can be done.

  127. Tau*

    Started a new job this week! Been going well so far, I think, everyone has been really nice and the intro session was well-organised. It is kind of throwing me to start over again as a newbie after I’d built up a huge amount of trust, knowledge and capital at my last job, but I’ll just take that as a challenge to try and get back there again as soon as I can. :) It’s also been highlighting how screamingly dysfunctional my last place got near the end, so… no regrets about leaving.

    One question, though:

    For the first time in my life I have a fairly long commute (45 minutes on public transport each way). What do people do to use the time? I’d like to try to do something useful with it instead of just mindlessly browing online. I’m considering knitting, and also pondering buying a tablet with a keyboard so I can type.

    1. Keymaster of Gozer*

      I have brought along bits of cross stitch work, for travelling I prefer stuff from the ‘Cross stitch to calm’ book because it’s all one colour so you don’t have to worry about juggling multiple thread colours and complex patterns.

      I also listen to old BBC radio comedies. Round the Horne, Navy Lark etc.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I’m considering taking the bus at least sometimes to avoid putting so many miles on my car (the bus ride would be longer time-wise, but the drive is really getting to me) and, yeah, I’d knit or read. I can’t do work away from my job, so that’s not an option–I might as well use it for a hobby.

    3. merp*

      I got so much reading done when I took the bus for about that long, although that may not work for everyone (on head-achey days, reading on transit made it worse). In my experience, a trade volume of comics fit that time pretty perfectly!

    5. QueenoftheCats*

      Lol I just sleep. I get motion sickness easily, so I’m pretty limited in what I can do. However, Audiobooks and podcasts are really great.

      I would also say, the more compact your commuting entertainment, the better. Sometimes you can sit in a seat and knit. Sometimes you’re in the middle of the car and squished.

      Welcome to the world of commuting on public transportation! Here’s to hoping your city’s public transportantion is less dysfunctional than mine.

      1. Tau*

        The good news is that my commute pans out in such a way that I have a very, very good chance of getting a seat on the way to work. The way back, however, is a different story, so I take your point about compact entertainment!

        And kvetching about the public transport seems to be a city-wide pasttime, but honestly I think we have it better than many places. There are annoying delays here and there, sure, but the system usually recovers pretty quickly. So far I haven’t been more than 10 minutes late or so – let’s see how well that holds up.

      2. Teal*

        Same! I can’t read in a car/bus. I was going to recommend audiobooks, podcasts, or movie watching :)

        1. QueenoftheCats*

          #motionsickl4life

          Additionally, I’ve also experimented with mindful breathing/meditation/whatever it’s called when I have a bout of motion sickness. It helps somewhat distract me from pulling an Exorcist over everyone

    6. Lana Kane*

      Podcasts and audiobooks are my lifesavers during my commute (2 buses and a train, whee!) I see people knitting as well, although my preference is to travel light and not have to fuss with extras.

      I decided to invest in an Audible subscription to get a break from podcasts. If you’re interested in maybe learning some stuff, they have Great Courses on a variety of topics. I just finished one on Great Minds of the Medieval Age, and am in the middle of one on the Viking Age. Next is the history of language. I mean, I know those topics aren’t for everyone, but just an example of how niche some of these can get, so it’s likely you will find something. Of course, there’s also tons of regular audiobooks.

      Between that and music when I just want to close my eyes and not think, I have a pretty decent commute.

      1. Tau*

        Ooh! I was on a quest for interesting history podcasts a while ago and those courses sound right up my alley. Thanks for the tip, I’ll look into it!

      4. Oak*

        I would like to get into audio books but I don’t want to give my money to Amazon (who own Audible). Does anyone know of any other good options?

        I’m already a podcast freak.

        1. LQ*

          Try your local public library! A lot of them have audiobooks available through their online apps.

          You can also try librivox and the other one I’m going to have to dig to find the name of….

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      45 minutes on public transport can be really great, especially if you don’t have to transfer– you can listen to a whole podcast or read a chapter. 15 minutes gives you little time, an hour can feel interminable. For my part, I used to do what everyone else suggests, though I will also add that if I end up with a commute in my future, I will use the time to do some studying; I participate in a “class” of sorts (it’s hard to explain) that requires about 45 minutes/day. Having that set time is soooo nice,

    8. Alianora*

      I have a 2 hour commute on transit each way (I’m actually moving so that I’ll have a much shorter commute soon), and I do a lot of reading. I also try to take care of my tasks that can be done online, like paying my credit card bill or sending emails that I’ve been putting off. And sometimes I’ll bring my sketchbook and draw.

    9. Anongineer*

      I downloaded the Nook app on my phone and would read on my commute. It was a nice way to wake up and start my day before dealing with the fires at work!

    10. Katniss Evergreen*

      I have a friend who has a super long train ride – she uses it to knit and/or do freelance work on the side of her regular job.

    11. Llama Wrangler*

      I read a lot. When I started the commute I bought the cheapest available kindle, and our local library has so many books you can read on the kindle that I’ve never had to buy a book. A kindle is great for holding in one hand (especially the kinds with physical page turn buttons) and it’s especially nice for the really long/heavy books.

  128. Keymaster of Gozer*

    I had to quit my last firm because the CEOs got arrested for running a Ponzi scheme and none of the 10 staff members had been paid for months. I provided evidence for the prosecution in the high court (I was the IT manager). I even had the national press hound me at home for statements (they never got one).

    Obviously I cannot use this firm as a reference, but it IS on my CV because I did a lot of good IT Management work there. My question is:

    Can/should I put the company name on my LinkedIn profile now I’m searching for work? And should I remove it off my CV?

    (I can handle the ‘why did you leave your last job?’ interview questions)

    1. Colette*

      I’d keep it both places. You did good work (I assume), and it’s part of your job history. It’s not your fault your boss was a crook.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Some of the best work (taking a mess of an unmanaged IT system and revamping it, adding actual data security etc.) I’ve ever done.

        I’ll keep it on my CV and profile then. Now that I think about it it’s not likely prospective employers will access high court records to see the total extent of the evidence I provided…and even if they did they won’t judge me as an accomplice.

        I’ve spent months unemployed trying to get my head back together after all this though. The stress was unbelievable!

  129. Anon for this*

    My former coworker from my terrible old job (Jane) sent her resume to my current manager (Marty) for an opening on our team. I had to tell Marty that I thought she was a bad fit. I feel bad about it because Jane is a good person and she must be struggling since many of my tasks fell to her after I left, since my terrible old manager (Betty) hasn’t bothered to replace me since I left a few months ago.
    However, Jane was one of Betty’s bad hiring decisions. I trained Jane for almost a year and to the end she had trouble performing even basic tasks on her own; I saw little to no improvement even after extensive coaching; worse, Jane thought she was doing a great job and bragged about it, despite my attempts to talk to her about performance issues. Most of this is not Jane’s fault. I blame Betty because she put me informally “in charge” of Jane but without giving me any authority to manage her, and then Betty refused to do her job and actually manage Jane. The only thing Betty hates more than hiring, is firing. But I strongly believe Jane should have been fired long ago.
    I didn’t tell Marty all of this — I just said I thought she was a bad fit and based on that and her weak resume he declined to interview her. For context, we’re a niche industry with many applicants and few openings, so it’s common to only bring strong candidates in, and it’s not as if I cost Jane a job or anything of the sort. But I’m concerned that Jane might contact me in the near future. Before leaving my old job Jane told me that Betty had promised her a raise in January, and since I was leaving she thought for sure that she’d get the raise and a promotion to my role. Then she joked that if she didn’t get her raise (she was, like me, paid well under market value) she’d quit and ask me to be her reference.
    I took that as a joke, but it’s January and Jane is sending out resumes, so… What do I do if Jane contacts me about being her reference, or for networking opportunities? I can get out of being her reference since I was never her manager, just her peer, but what about networking? How do I tell her in the nicest possible way that I think she’s in the wrong role and she should consider a different job entirely? Should I even bother to? I think she would be happier in a different role that she’s suited to, but is it even my business to tell her so??

    1. valentine*

      You can say that, given what you saw, you can’t help her with connections. Just rinse and repeat.

      But you’d do well to tell Marty how deep the problem ran. Her insistence on the opposite of reality is particularly troubling because it means there’s no room for improvement.

  130. Ingray*

    If I found out that another supervisor is crossing boundaries with an employee, should I speak up to someone higher up in our organization? This supervisor was acquainted with the employee before the employee was hired here and has told him things he shouldn’t have, such as details of another employee’s medical leave, information about disciplinary action taken against another employee, and some negative comments that the supervisor’s own boss (our program director) made about the employee. I found out about the situation because the employee was upset to hear about the negative comments by the program director and came to me for support. I advised the employee to talk directly to the program director about the comments, but I’m not sure whether I should talk to my direct supervisor about my concerns about boundary crossing or just butt out?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Obviously this isn’t a real live “mandated reporter” situation, but I’d treat it as one. You’re in a position to do something, an employee came to you for help, and the behavior he needs help correcting is clearly unethical. This isn’t something to “butt out” of. Imagine one day you’re being deposed (Ok, not in court, but by HR) and they ask if you knew, and you say “well, yeah, but I didn’t think it was my business!” How would that go over?

      I can see why the employee would be really uncomfortable broaching this with the program director. But its really got nothing to do with the negative comments, that’s a separate issue. Its about the fact that the employee found out.

  131. Seniority*

    I’m getting really frustrated at my company because I’ve been here for 4 years and we work really hard and long hours but there is no flexibility for the non-seniors. The “seniors” who have been here for over 20 years get to come in at whatever time they want (sometimes as late as 10am), leave at whatever time they want, and work from home whenever they want. None of this is written into our contract, like if you work for the company for X amount of years you get to unlock these perks, they just do whatever they want. We are a really small company and a casual culture – no one really “manages” anyone though we do have one Managing Director and CEO who are hardly in the office themselves. I am told that a few years before I got here, no one even came into the office on Friday regardless of seniority. It’s starting to feel really discouraging to work here when we put in so many hours when we travel for work but when we are in the office, my but needs to be in the chair from 8:30am-5pm (sometimes I even have to work from home from as early as 4am or as late as midnight because I work in the events industry) but the seniors can do whatever. I know that this might just be an unspoken rule in some smaller companies across the board and maybe I just need to re-frame my thinking. On top of this, someone who started not too long ago is now getting loose with their start and end times – I’m not sure if this person thinks it’s ok to do this because the seniors do it or because if they genuinely don’t care since it’s not like we get “managed”. But when I first started I was told that my hours would be 8:30am-5pm and that is what I have held myself to – on top of that sometimes I get in the office as early as 8:00am because of my workload and my CEO will call the office that early just expecting someone to pick up and meet her demands which winds up being me because the seniors certainly aren’t here yet and the people junior to me don’t have as big of a workload and as I mentioned are getting away with coming in late too. Anyone have thoughts / experience on this too?

    1. WellRed*

      If no one is really managing anyone I’d probably get a little loose with my hours too. What’s stopping you? And why do you feel it has to be you to answer the early calls from your boss?

    2. Jessi*

      Well since no one is “managing” you why don’t you say to your manager “since I worked late last night due to event I won’t be in till x” or “I’m working from home today”. It seems to me from your description like there is a culture of work however you like as long as the works get done. So why not do your work in a way that best suits you?

  132. Michelle*

    Question about FMLA with background:

    My sister is the primary caregiver for my elderly mother with dementia. She works part-time. When she works my 17 yr old nephew helps with my mother. She’s in the stage where she mixes up name and events, doesn’t sleep well, doesn’t want to eat real food, only junk and rarely has a meltdown episode about something totally innocuous. Recently she has been experiencing hallucinations. She has multiple doctor appointments and test appointments. My sister applied for FMLA to be used intermittently so she can take her to the appointments and if she is having a really bad day, stay home and take care of her. Her boss is aware of this and encourage her to apply for FMLA.

    The paperwork was submitted and the company denied it same day, without any explanation. She has tried to contact the corporate HR to find out what the issue is or if the doctor filled out the paperwork wrong but they will not call her back. My sister has worked for this company for 18 years , works more than 1,250 hours per year and they have 50 or more employees in a 75 mile radius (they are a national closeout retailer).

    Does she have any options or places to call for help? She’s been a good employee, shows up for her shifts, gets good reviews and customers often compliment and rave about her to her manager. I don’t know what to do to help. I try to go by a few times a week and on the weekends but I work full-time and have a chronically ill husband at home that I have to take care of as well.

    1. Lana Kane*

      If the company administers the FMLA themselves, she should enlist her boss’s help in escalating this with HR.

    2. BadWolf*

      I would definitely bring in the manager. Or manager’s manager, depending on the structure. Maybe not in a “attack HR for me” but in a “Hey, I’m trying to go through the FMLA process and I can’t get in contact with HR by calling. How should I get in contact with HR to see what’s going on with the paperwork.”

      Can she also email HR? Does she call HR and just get a VM? Is there a company instant message or slack type option?

      1. Michelle*

        It goes to voicemail. Her manager also called, sent a email and hasn’t gotten a response. The district manager (manager’s manager) is on vacation until Feb.

        It it’s something as simple as the doctor did not fill out the form correctly we could take it back and have him fill it out again. It’s so frustrating that the people in charge of handling this will not respond to multiple calls.

        1. BadWolf*

          Wow…HR fail. I was going to wondering if there was some sort of phone fail going on and HR was all, “Gee loads been light lately” but email apparently also didn’t help.

          When they call, do they say it’s in regards to the FLMA? I wonder if she or her manager could call and ask about something else and see if they get a response. I wouldn’t normally do a bait and switch, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

          Is HR only one number? Can they start walking a phone tree and directly call HR or HR adjacent people?

          Is there a third higher up that she could say, “Hey Boss and I have called the HR line X times and X emails with no response. What is the best way to get in touch with HR?

          Is there a peer district manager that could be contacted?

        2. Flyleaf*

          Escalate up through HR. Start with people who work in HR benefits, and if they don’t respond then reach out to their manager, ending up with the HR VP in needed.

      1. Flyleaf*

        Yes! Document everything. Keep copies of emails, letters, voicemails, etc. If you are in a state that allows 1-party recording, consider recording relevant conversations.

    4. Barfolomew*

      How many hours does she work? FMLA requires you to have worked 1,250 hours in the past 12 months.

      If she hasn’t worked enough hours, can she work out a schedule for flexibility? Ie, if she normally works T, W, Th, and she needs to be out Th, could she work Friday instead?

      If she has over the required hours, where is corporate HR? Is it possible to travel there (with supervisor’s agreement) and “camp” out until she gets an answer?

      1. Michelle*

        They only have corporate HR, not HR at each individual store. She has worked the required amount of hours (1250) to qualify and she doesn’t have set hours. Her store manager said if they can’t get HR to answer, he would be willing to work with her so she can take our mother to her appointments. I told her to write down each time she calls, if she gets voicemail, etc. I just really don’t understand why they will not answer or return her call or her manager’s call. It’s very bizarre.

  133. Jaid*

    My unit does some data entry to keep busy in our off-season. That is supposed to generate correspondence via the computer. But now we’re being told to print out the correspondence and physically mail it ourselves.

    It’s just so very aggravating.

  134. My Replacement*

    Weird situation. I previously worked in a tiny (less than 15 person) company that had an extensive bro-culture (e.g., females waited 5+ years with no promotion even with doctorates/MBAs/JDs, whereas the younger guy with the masters and 4 less years of experience got a senior promotion 1 year). Said guy “Sid” is super nice, and apparently applied at my current company. My coworker Martha was about to offer him a job but wanted my input since she recognized his tiny company name. I told her about the bro culture and how he was the company favorite. The leadership reshuffled office seating such that I lost my window seat to Sid and got a tinier office (though I got a pay raise at the time).

    Tl;dr: I told Martha Sid was a pleasant person to work with who was great at his job (he was!) and put a caveat that the old company had a bro culture that I really hope he didn’t absorb internally. Something tells me he didn’t since he’s looking for a new job on the down-low. That, plus the tiny company makes people do unpaid business development work as “leadership summit bonding time” and I don’t think he wanted to spend till 11 pm each night twice a year doing that unpaid, especially now he has a kid.

  135. Medical Bills*

    Can I please get advise on how to schedule and handle medical appointments without causing issues at my job?

    I need annual check ups with my primary care and 3 specialists each year, which can lead to additional medical appointments depending on how my diseases are progressing. Since I recently finished my probation period, I used up a sick day to visit 2 out of the 4 doctors and still need to see the other two. Would it be bad to use another sick day in 2-3 weeks for medical appointments again?

    I’m worried about being absent again because I’m only 20 something and people seem to not understand why I need to go to the doctors so much. I’ve used 3 sick days total now (1 for medical, 1 for the flu, and 1 for a family emergency) when I’ve only been in this role for ~4 months so my biggest concern is that my boss will think less of me if I were to skip out on a work day again! Our department only has 3 people (including myself) so I always ask ahead of time and my boss seems to be fine with my sick day usages. But am I being a bad employee?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      That sounds normal, but… is there any way to make appointments at the beginning or end of the work day, so you’re only taking an hour or two per appointments?

    2. Potsie*

      3 sick days in 4 months doesn’t sound excessive to me. You could look into whether you can come in late/leave early for the other appointments but I don’t think another sick day will really be a problem. Have your coworkers complained or something? Also, using a sick day is not “skipping out on work.” It is using a benefit you were given. Unless you are taking more days off than you have or also using a ton of vacation time, there shouldn’t be a problem.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I have diabetes, fibromyalgia, PTSD, and a few other health issues. I am speaking from first hand experience here.

      If you feel comfortable, I would explain what is going to with your boss. You mentioned you have a disease. If you feel comfortable telling your boss what disease you have go for it. If not, the just say you have a medical issue which is under control (if that is true) and requires regular medical treatment. Just knowing why you are going to the doctor so often will often help people be more understanding.

      Also, what others said about making appointments either early morning or late afternoon is also very helpful. That way it does not seem that you are out as much. If you can schedule more than one on the same day that is also helpful.

      Ask about “rush” or “busy” times. If you can avoid scheduling appointments during those times (and make sure your boss knows that you did that – but be subtle about it) that is also helpful.

      Also as other said, three days off in four months is not that bad. I usually have to take off at least 1.5 hours every 2 weeks but often it is more than that. It is rare that I have a full week where I don’t at least take an hour or so off. For example, in October, I took off 6 different times. Most of them were less than 2 hours but one was 2.75 hours.

    4. blink14*

      You are not being a bad employee – please prioritize your health, and if you need to, frame it as you need to be healthy to work in a efficient manner. Put up some boundaries now so that as time goes on, and if your illnesses progress or something else arises, you already have a pattern you are used to, and your employer is as well. I have a number of chronic illnesses, and I’ve gone to 20-30 doctor appointments per year for the past several years.

      I try to schedule my appointments for first thing in the morning or at the end of the day – basically as early or late as my doctor can schedule me. I personally find booking multiple appointments on the same day to be very stressful, so I spread my appointments out as much as I can. If you are able to take half sick days or even just a couple of sick hours per appointment, I would suggest trying that, especially if you have a small amount of sick days to use, try to save full days for when you are actively sick.

      Any appointments that I know might be open ended or require more same day testing, I schedule in the afternoon to give myself time after to take care of those issues. Any appointments that are more progress check ins and generally aren’t longer than 30 minutes, I schedule in the morning. I try to avoid busy periods at work, and you may want to ask your boss or a co-worker what the busy periods are at your job, and work around that.

      Lastly, if you feel very uncomfortable about the amount of time you need to use, talk to your boss. My boss is aware of my most prevalent illnesses, as I’ve had to take quite a lot of sick time in the past several years, and I personally find that makes me more comfortable to take the time off, knowing that she knows a larger picture of what’s going on.

  136. Formerly Known As*

    I’m curious how long people think it’s okay to leave industry awards and/or trade publication interviews listed on their resume. I have around 4 of these at the bottom of my resume in reverse chronological order. The dates of these range from 2012 to 2020. But I’m starting to think it’s time for the older ones to come off. Thoughts?

    1. Autumnheart*

      I wouldn’t keep the interviews if they’re old. The awards, maybe, if they’re a highly ranking award (just for illustration, I’d keep the Oscar no matter when it was awarded, but probably drop the SAG award from 2012).

  137. Hello It's Me*

    What are some qualities that would make someone a good manager, but not a good subordinate?

    It’s interesting to me that people get promoted because they’re good at the work they do, but not necessarily good at managing. I wonder if there are people who are good at managing, but not necessarily the lower-level work.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think that’s dependent on what the subordinate would be doing. After all, most managers are still subordinate to someone.

      So if you say, like — what would make someone a good manager but a bad engineer, that’s an obvious skill set to contrast. But “subordinate” or even “individual contributor” I think is too broad to be a useful contrast.

    2. Allypopx*

      *raises hand* much better at managing than working.

      I’m good at processes and work flow. I’m good at having difficult conversations in a kind way. I’m great at the kind of thought process that goes into things like scheduling and project management. Bigger picture vision kind of stuff. I thrive when solving problems, particularly time sensitive problems.

      My ADHD makes just getting regular work done VERY hard sometimes. My attention to detail could be better. I have a hard time focusing. Finding the energy to start writing an email or making a phone call can be challenging. My patience for stupid people is also incredibly low, which means my customer service is hit or miss.

      Put me in a planning and managing role where I only have to talk to my coworkers any day.

        1. Allypopx*

          Well I do have tangible skills. I can organize a lot of things, my software proficiency list is pretty long, I can talk about a lot of things like goals and metrics with a fair amount of authority and fluency. I’ve done things that are probably easier to quantify than an individual contributor like increase staff retention by x%, manage budgets of x size, secured x amounts of successful partnerships, etc. I can talk about projects I’ve overseen and organizational changes I’ve helped institute. The applicable skills are just different at the management level not necessarily intangible or more difficult to describe.

  138. cold yogas*

    Weird question but does anyone do light stretches in the workplace? I’m on my butt all day in front of a computer so I spend my breaks discreetly doing stretches outside the building or even in the rarely used bathroom stalls. Am I a big weirdo or are there “better” ways to do some stretches?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I do, and I try to walk as much as I can also. There are a few less noticeable stretches I do at my desk too, otherwise I just end up so stiff and sore.

    2. Ejane*

      I will get up and stretch my arms over my head, or shake out my limbs periodically. I also have a service dog, so I take a couple minutes twice a day or so to take him out, which helps me shake out the stiffness.

      I don’t think it’s weird unless you hold it for more than a few seconds (it’s the difference between a movement and assuming a pose), take up a lot of space (lunge stretches against a wall, etc) or are on the ground.

    3. Catsaber*

      It’s not weird, though I would typically try not to take up too much space – like not getting out the yoga mat, doing a full downward dog in the middle of a hallway, etc. There are many websites that have stretching routines that can be done in your chair or a very small space. Google “stretches for plane rides” for some ideas. Also, try to just get up and walk around more, if you can – take the longer way to the bathroom, copier, etc.

    4. WineNot*

      I stand all day every day at work, so I’m always on my feet and moving around which I love. Even still, whenever I go into our one-person bathroom, I will usually do a bunch of squats each time. Sometimes I will do some (wall) pushups, sometimes I will turn the light off and stand in the dark for a minute to ground myself. I’m weird, but I also find it breaks up the days nicely.

    5. Reba*

      My neck of the office has started doing quick exercise breaks together! It’s silly and fun.

      I also do some low-key stretches at my desk.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        I like the idea of an area doing it!

        I am very obnoxious about announcing when I’m drinking water* or sticking to my AC breaks – if you’re all doing sedentary work maybe you should be visibly stretching.

        *one of my coworkers is on “teacher brain” and won’t drink often enough! She’s old enough to be my mom and I remind her.

    6. KR*

      As part of our EHS training we have a whole stretch routine we’re encouraged to do every day to avoid workplace injuries (modified as needed for those with injuries or disabilities but the work most of our business unit does is extremely physical so you have to be able bodied to do it). I say stretch away! Outside the building sounds fine or in an unused conference room or area of your business. The bathroom is a little wierd imo but I suppose it depends how your bathroom is laid out and what stretches you’re doing.

  139. Ain’t Miss Behavin’*

    Low-stakes question here. I work in a part-time pool in an emergency call center environment to supplement my full time income and keep up my dispatching skills. They recently hired a new director/manager and the policies are being revamped. One of the new policies is “employees must shower every day.” I casually inquired what the heck that was about, and apparently one of the full-timers hasn’t been smelling so sweet lately. I get that everyone’s in close quarters for long shifts, but it’s blowing my mind that adults in high level positions are coming up with this stuff. Did they even talk to the full-timer in question? And as a supervisor in a former life, how are the sups supposed to enforce this rule?! Full disclosure, I typically shower every other day. Deodorant is applied on the regular. It makes me feel a little rebellious to roll in there in my illegally unwashed state. So is it me, or are they overstepping?

    1. Allypopx*

      SUPER overstep and avoidance of addressing the actual thing they’re worried about. Managers who don’t want deal with things often manage through mass emails or rule changes.

      Completely unenforceable. I am also an every-other-day showerer (and an argument can be made that that’s healthier) and would laugh in their faces.

    2. Fabulous*

      I’ve seen general bodily cleanliness mentioned in a policy, but no specific shower rules. That’s a bit much…

    3. CindyLouWho*

      I cannot believe the things that companies put in policies. This policy is one of them.

      Policies are supposed to be high-level, IMHO. Things like requiring employees to wear personal protective equipment or to state that the company is a drug-free workplace.

      Requiring someone to shower everyday is too granular.

    4. CatCat*

      They’re overstepping. If someone smells bad, address that with the person. Without knowing what is going on with the person, their policy may not even address the issue while pissing off people who are not the probnlem.

    5. irene adler*

      Overstep.
      So how would this policy be enforced? Are they gonna visit your home-daily- and check for wet tub, damp towels, put calipers to the bar of soap to verify its use, etc.?

      Will you be required to submit to management a pic of you showering every single day?

      Is it possible to sniff someone and tell “yep, you didn’t shower today!”

      And then, what’s the punishment if you in fact, haven’t showered? Will you be bathed there at work? Sent home? Re-trained in some fashion?

      Oh, please!

      1. The Francher Kid*

        Exactly. One (hellish in many ways) department I worked in long ago posted a new dress code. I kid you not, one of the requirements was “Must wear underwear. Must not be visible.” Soooooo, how exactly was that supposed to be enforced? Because if you’re trying to tell me I’ve got to strip for a supervisor every morning, I’m noping right to a lawyer’s office.

    6. Catsaber*

      And what if you bathe your body every day, but not your hair? Does that count? There are tons of people who don’t shampoo every day (myself included, depending on the length of my hair).

    7. Daisy-dog*

      I recently was wondering how long I could go without showering before I would start to smell. I think it could be a while as I don’t do anything strenuous, wear clean clothes, and use deodorant and occasional dry shampoo. They are completely overstepping and violating a major rule of management: Don’t create a policy to fix a problem with 1 person.

    8. Ain't Miss Behavin'*

      Thanks everyone, I’m so glad it’s not just me! Sometimes I don’t wash my hair every time I shower either – #solidarity – because I live in a dry climate with hard water and it’s just not great on my hair.

      I’m still laughing at the home checks..

  140. Fabulous*

    When you ask for a raise, how long does it usually take to get approved?
    October is when I originally proposed it to my boss, she asked me to put together something she could take to the VP. It went through a couple drafts but she’s had it since Thanksgiving. She’s taken it to her boss, and it’s been OK’ed for the VP, but to my knowledge it’s yet to be presented. It’s been almost three months now and I’m getting antsy!

    1. BadWolf*

      I would ask about it in a “Hey, I was wondering what timeline to expect on my raise.”

      It’s, of course, very important to you, but easy to put in “Get to it sometime” category for others.

      1. Fabulous*

        I do keep asking my manager, and she keeps saying “When I know something, you’ll be the first to know.” Which is helpful, but… not.

        1. WellRed*

          No it’s not helpful. She isn’t advocating for you. If you haven’t already, I’d request a meeting with her specifically to discuss the timeline and also restate your case.

  141. Ban The BCC*

    Any ideas on work from home outfits? I don’t want to schlep around in sweat pants and a hoodie all day. I need prices that work as a casual outfit but aren’t full on business.

    1. Catsaber*

      When I WFH, I like to wear nice yoga pants, and either a nicer sweatshirt or a nice tee and a cardigan. Think, something you’d get lunch with friends in – comfy but not schleppy, very athleisure. By “nicer”, I mean – fits well, not stained/ripped/saggy, nothing you sleep in. The clothes don’t have to be expensive, but I found that having some comfy clothes like that help me feel a little more “professional”, and I don’t have to worry about what people see if I need to do a video call.

      Uniqlo has a lot of good basics that are comfortable, that could easily be worn at home all day – their leggings pants, EZ ankle pants, basic tees, etc.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        I second this look. I wore yoga pants with a v-neck tee + cardigan or a nice sweater every single day I worked from home. I’m partial to the Zella leggings at Nordstrom because they don’t look athletic and have a pocket that fits my cell phone, but they’re not the cheapest out there.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      When I used to work from home it was either a nice t-shirt (fit well, not too thin, etc.) or button-down and jeans or a nice pair of shorts. You can always go to a thrift or consignment store to get good deals.

    3. CheeryO*

      I’d probably go for pants with lots of stretch (I like the Uniqlo leggings pants mentioned above) and sweaters or cardigans with fairly casual tops. Just enough to feel put together while still getting to enjoy being comfortable!

    4. The New Wanderer*

      The main thing for me to mentally switch gears to work mode is to change entirely out of whatever I slept in, even if what I change into is just as comfy and I wouldn’t wear it out of the house for errands. Athleisure is exactly my target. I have multiple pairs of soft knit joggers and fleece lounge pants that are just right for me, but I never do video calls so no one sees me anyway. Tops are nice t-shirts with cardigans or casual sweaters. Sounds like from the other posts that these are the basics of the WFH uniform!

      But if you want a step up from loungewear, there are knit and ponte pants and leggings that look a bit neater, say with jeans-like details like faux fly and pockets and front seams, but are more comfortable than jeans or dress slacks.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I snorted because I don’t WFH and I’m in a hoodie right now, per usual. But I agree with others that nice atleasure works the best. You can dress it up on the top if you are having video calls that day but keep it comfy on the bottom.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Definitely the athleisure look is the way to go for WFH style. Black yoga pants + a top. If you have to do video calls, I’d opt for a sweater or casual blouse instead of a hoodie or sweatshirt. A track suit type outfit is also nice.

  142. Paralegal Part Deux*

    Y’all I messed up very badly with a commercial closing we did a few months ago. We had a $2M closing for some heavy equipment. So, before the closing I ran a check again on UCC liens, and I didn’t see anything new. The same buyer/seller are entering into a new agreement for some more equipment, and I did another check to be sure there wasn’t anything new. Ten days before we closed, a bank filed a UCC lien with the Secretary of State. We had no idea the lien existed. So far, the way the lien reads, it’s only on equipment with the bank which the original equipment wasn’t. But, damn hell, I have never screwed up like this in 13 years. Ever. It’s made me physically sick.

    How do I move past this with my boss?

    1. Colette*

      I’m confused about the timing – did you miss the lien or did it happen after your last check before the closing?

      But regardless, what could you have done to catch it? (Do the check later in the process, add additional verification, etc.)? Talk to your boss about implementing that, and apologize for missing this (if you did).

      (I once had an order be a day late, which cost us $1.6 million dollars from the wrong budget. It happens.)

    2. Pippa*

      Sorry this happened. Do you still have your pre-closing search that was clear? Is it possible there was an indexing issue with the new UCC? Either way, these things happen. That’s why we have checklists & procedures which we follow each and every closing. People make mistakes. Thirteen years is a great track record. Be good to yourself.

  143. Vaccinated and annoyed*

    SOMEONE CAME TO WORK WITH THE FLU
    One of the young women at work (Deb) has been sniffling and just looking ill all week, but she’s insisted it was just allergies.
    This morning someone asked how she was feeling, and Deb said she went to the doctor last night
    and she has the flu.
    BUT SHE STILL CAME TO WORK.

    I don’t have the power/authority to tell her to go home, but she’s like 10 feet from me all day and I’m so annoyed.
    We have one bucket of PTO (sick + vacation), so I get not wanting to use days, but once the doctor says flu STAY HOME.

    1. please stay home if you have the flu*

      This happened at our office last year. The entire office caught the flu. So, there’s that…

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Ew! Do you have Lysol that you can spray in her direction every 10 minutes?

      My co-workers are actually weird. When we switched to the combo bucket for PTO, the use actually increased for incidental absences – car issues, feeling icky, taking care of kids/grandkids, etc. I think when it was called “sick time”, they felt more pressure to ensure they were “sick enough” to use it and didn’t want to burn vacation days. Definitely the opposite of everyone else.

    3. CheeryO*

      How the heck was she able to even get to work? Last time I had the legit flu, I could barely get out of bed. Hopefully she isn’t very contagious at this point.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Does her manager know?!
      If she was my direct report I would send her home immediately. The flu is no joke.

    5. Paquita*

      About a third of my department has been out with flu/stomach bug/crud over the last few weeks. Director postponed our monthly meeting from last Thursday to next week. He didn’t think it was a good idea to have everyone sitting all close together in one room right now. A few are still out be it seems to be coming to and end. Lots of masks and Lysol spray/wipes. Someone has even been wiping down the time clock buttons daily.

  144. Grace*

    First office job, and I’ve got an upwards management meeting soon. I’ve heard from other people in the office that he genuinely wants answers on how he can improve or make things easier, not just “I can’t really think of anything”, but the truth is… I can’t really think of anything!

    He’s not in our satellite office that often, but I’ve heard about how badly he burnt out when he tried to regularly commute and he’s apologised for it in every single one-on-one we’ve had, so I feel like that’s not really valid. I have catch-ups with him every so often, and monthly chats with grand-boss to have a chance to ask about bigger-scale things going on in the department, so I don’t really have any questions on that front. He doesn’t handle my day-to-day work – that’s assigned by other people in the department.

    What sort of areas would you suggest discussing?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Giving positive feedback would certainly be welcomed! Do you just have questions about things that are going on? Is there a plan for your department for the next year, 5 years, 10 years? If pressed, ask what he has heard from others.

  145. Cold-Calling Catastrophe*

    I’ve been with my company for 7.5 years, and just this week my job duties changed drastically. I’m a records clerk and I LOVE the position, and I do great work (I have little in-company awards for my work), but this week I’ve been moved to cold-calling. I hate it, I’m terrible at it, and I made sure to alert my manager of this. I literally told her, “I hate cold-calling and I’m terrible at it. It makes much more sense to have Coworker1 or Coworker2 to do this. I specifically took this position so I would never have to cold-call.” I was still put on cold-calling. My numbers are abysmal. I reiterated what I said above and was informed that nothing will change. I’m looking for a new job, but in the meantime I’m worried that I’ll be fired for having terrible performance. If I am fired, how do I explain this to my next job? And is there anything I can do in the meantime to convince my manager and my manager’s boss that this is a terrible idea?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Based upon what Alison has said in the past, I would just be honest about what happened. You were in a role which you liked and you were moved to a role you did not like and knew you would not flourish. I would even say that you brought it up with your manager but nothing changed. This is a case where honesty (yet still polite) is the best policy.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If I were interviewing you, and you told me this story, it would make me desperately want to hire you out of sympathy alone.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      “The role changed significantly without notice from the position I had applied for to a full time sales role. I talked with my manager about it not being a good fit and made every attempt to go back to my original role but was told that was not an option. I did my best but I was not suited for the role and was let go for not hitting the assigned metrics.”

  146. LDN Layabout*

    I’m in data/analysis, our organisation has moved to Office 365, so viz/products made in Power BI and we’ve got access to the whole Teams/Planner/Power Automate set-up that goes with 365.

    As someone who’s been dabbling in the back end of Power BI, SQL, Power Automate etc. where should I be looking to develop skills to improve work I’m doing now AND make sure I’ve got experience the job market wants. Stick to those mentioned above or am I on the wrong track (e.g. should be picking up R as well).

  147. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

    I’m a Canadian federal government employee and in July I took an acting assignment that’s supposed to end in September 2021. It’s a lateral move and I took it because my substantive position doesn’t offer me an obvious path to advancement.

    I was exceptionally good at my substantive role. I am not at all suited to this acting assignment and that’s becoming more and more obvious by the day. I’m neurodivergent and my old job plays to my strengths. This new one requires me to spend 75% of my time on the things I struggle with (I don’t have dyscalculia, but think having dyscalculia and spending 75% of the time working with numbers).

    I’m desperately unhappy. My clients are unhappy. My managers are currently really happy with my work, but that’s because they’ve only seen the 25% that I know how to do well. They don’t see the 75% that I’ve allowed to pile up or that I’ve done poorly and had to redo.

    I’ve been with this organization for 13 years. I have cried at work 5 times since I started, and 3 of those times have been during this assignment.

    I want to ask to go back to my old job, but they hired someone else to act in my place so I don’t think that’s an option. I also don’t know what asking to end this assignment early will do to my chances of getting promoted later. I have 23 years left until retirement; I don’t want anyone to think that the only thing I can do is my old job. I’ve done really well acting in higher-level jobs and this year was the second-choice candidate for a higher-level position (the chosen candidate was already acting in the role and had been for a year).

    I don’t know what to do. I have an appointment with my therapist coming up, but I’m really just despairing right now.

    1. Reba*

      It sounds like you need to talk to your boss about that 75%.

      Maybe there will be a creative solution besides “old job” and “end early.”

  148. Youth*

    Storytime:
    My coworker used to work in the entertainment industry. She was helping on a film shoot abroad with an A-list actress. It was getting late, and the actress was getting grumpy. Suddenly she snapped and tried to fire my coworker, telling the rest of the staff that they better “send this girl back to America.”
    Happily, my coworker was not fired on this actress’s whim. But they did ask her to be discreet and stay away from the actress for the rest of the film. And now I can’t see a movie with that actress without thinking of this story.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve got one!
      I had a friend (sadly deceased now) who was in a band that sometimes opened for bigger bands in the 1980s. One day, they were at a hotel, exhausted, and had just packed all their gear into the elevator to go up to their rooms.

      Big Time Pop Star (who is now also deceased) and his entourage approached the elevator and asked, “Hey could you move all your stuff out of that elevator because we want to go upstairs.”

      They all looked at each other like, what? My friend’s bandmate said, “F*** no, dude,” or something to that effect.

      Big Time Pop Star snapped, “Well, up your ass with a big STICK!” and flounced away.

      When my friend told me this story, I laughed like a loon for ten minutes solid and could never look at that pop star again without thinking of that. I wonder if they have run into each other in the afterlife and made up, lol.

    3. OyHiOh*

      A friend has a close family relative who is a production manager for a company that produces a number of well known TV serials in the U.S. Several years ago, relative was working on a particular show with a particularly well known star leading the cast and nearly everyone in my friend’s family was tripping over themselves asking the production manger if they could come to the set, get autographs, etc. Except that the story that the relative told my friend was about having to get in the star’s face and tell them “either do exactly the thing the director is asking for, or else leave the set until you can do exactly what the director is asking for.”

      In the records of good management, my friend said that their relative went to their boss and asked about parameters regarding what they could/could not say, how much they could push, before going and calling the star out somewhat publically and the relative’s manager basically said “say/do whatever you need to to keep production on track and the director satisfied with results. We’ll back you up.”

      But I can’t watch that show anymore without thinking about that story and what it says about the personality of that actor.

    4. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I have a story, too!

      It was my third day working at a CPA firm. One of Fergus’ clients, Wakeen, was a rather famous actor who starred in two long-running sitcoms. When I arrived at the office, Cersei told me that Sansa had called in to say that she wouldn’t be in. I then checked the appointment book and saw that Sansa had not written down any appointments for that day.

      Wakeen’s wife, a minor celebrity, called and asked to speak to Sansa, the accountant who worked under Fergus’ supervision on their account. I told her that Sansa was out that day, and I asked if Fergus could help her. She agreed to speak to Fergus, and I put her through.

      The next thing I knew, Cersei told me that Wakeen’s wife screamed at Fergus and said, “Why isn’t Sansa in? We made arrangements last week to have a conference over the phone this morning, and I purposely made plans to spend several hours on the phone with her this morning to discuss everything, and now she isn’t here!” Cersei told me that Wakeen’s wife screamed so much that Fergus panicked and said, “But Sansa IS here. She’s just in the ladies room. She’ll call you back.” Cersei then said that Fergus told me to call Sansa at her home and tell her to call Wakeen’s wife. And if Wakeen’s wife should call our office again, I should say that Sansa was in the ladies room, and then I should call Sansa at home and tell her to call Wakeen’s wife.

      I called Sansa and told her to call Wakeen’s wife, but I was furious, and there was nothing I could do about it. Of course, when Wakeen’s wife called again, I had to apologize for having told her that Sansa was out all day, when she WASN’T – she was merely in the ladies room, and I was just too lazy to ask someone where she was. No, I couldn’t be bothered to ask anyone where Sansa was – it was so much easier to say, “Sorry, she’s not here today.” And I had to agree with Wakeen’s wife that that wasn’t the proper thing to do. And yes, I learned my lesson – I shouldn’t go around saying, “He/she isn’t here today,” when I should take the time to FIND OUT if the person was in the rest room.

      Wakeen’s wife called a number of times, and each time I told her that Sansa was in the ladies room. But one time, when I called Sansa’s home, I got the answering machine, and I left a message that she should call Wakeen’s wife. Then Wakeen’s wife called back and screamed, “It’s been a half hour! She must have gotten out of the ladies room by now!” I said, “Oh, she didn’t call you back? Just a minute, please…” and I put her on hold. I tried calling Sansa again, but I got the answering machine. Fergus was on the phone, and there was no way I was going to interrupt him and ask him what to do. I told Wakeen’s wife that Sansa would call her back. I then left a very urgent message on Sansa’s answering machine.

      Finally, Sansa called back and said that she couldn’t call Wakeen’s wife, because her children were making so much noise that Wakeen’s wife would be able to hear them in the background, and then Wakeen’s wife would know that Sansa wasn’t in the office. She asked to speak to Fergus, but Fergus was on the phone. Sansa told me to call Wakeen’s wife and tell her that Sansa had to go home in a hurry because one of her children got sick. So I called Wakeen’s wife and told her that. And then I had to explain why I couldn’t have bothered to tell her that SOONER.

      The next day, I asked one of the owners if there are ever times that I’m supposed to pretend that our employees are in the office (in the rest room) when they’re really out for the day. He said no and looked at me as if I was out of my mind.

      I was really angry at Sansa for not letting Fergus know that she had made plans with Wakeen’s wife, or not calling Wakeen’s wife and saying that she would be out of the office, and I was angry at Fergus for coming up with a story that made me look a lazy idiot who couldn’t be bothered finding out that someone was in the ladies room.

      The moral of the story is that if a receptionist ever tells you that the person that you want to talk to is out that day or gone for the day or something similar, but then you find out that he/she was in the office all the time, maybe the receptionist wasn’t a total idiot.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          I know! When I told a friend this story, she thought that it was stupid that I had to say that Sansa was in the ladies room EVERY SINGLE TIME Wakeen’s wife called. I agreed, but I said that that was what Fergus wanted me to say, and I didn’t dare say anything else.

          Fergus never learned his lesson. About a year later, someone from our biggest client called and asked to speak to Wendell. Wendell wasn’t in that day, because he had gone to a Monday Night Football game the night before and knew that he wouldn’t be much good the following day. I merely said that Wendell was out that day, and I asked if he wanted to speak to Fergus, who supervised Wendell on that account. He spoke to Fergus.

          Fergus did not realize this, but I was able to hear him talking, and I heard him tell the client that Wendell was with the IRS all day that day. I really doubted that he would remember to tell Wendell the following day, “In case it comes up when you speak to our biggest client, you were with the IRS all day yesterday.” Then it occurred to me to say nothing to Wendell, so that I could give Fergus a taste of his own medicine. I was positive that Fergus didn’t know that I knew what he had said about the IRS. So it would be really embarrassing if Wendell had mentioned having gone to the football game. However, I finally decided against it, because I would have felt terrible if it had cost us our biggest client, even though no one would have had any reason to blame me.

          So I told Wendell the next day that, if necessary, he should pretend to have been with the IRS the previous day, and he thanked me. Yes, he remembered what had happened with Sansa. Late in the day, I asked Wendell if Fergus had said anything to him about pretending to have been with the IRS, and he said no. Fergus would have left him high and dry.

  149. Llama Face!*

    It was a frustrating week at work at my business. We had an announcement with no warning that all the people in my workgroup would be immediately responsible for once a week llama delivery duties that start before our actual work time. Since most of us don’t have vehicle access during work hours this means coming in early and walking several blocks to another building and then walking back with the items, often in severe weather conditions. We are not llama delivery people (we’re more like Llama clerks) and we already work overtime at the end of the day as needed. We won’t get paid overtime for the early morning work because overtime only starts *after* working a set number of hours in that day and we may be able to leave a bit early(assuming work doesn’t go late- then we would start getting OT). So there is no financial incentive for us to take this on. The worst part is that this is something we- especially I- protested when it was first suggested but our boss refused to get an actual courier, telling us it wasn’t a big deal, and now they are claiming we volunteered to do it! I also have serious struggles with SAD in the winter so having to try and get up even earlier in the dark is a nightmare for me.
    Tl;dr- Bosses just made early morning non-job duty work mandatory and are claiming we agreed when we didn’t.

    1. WellRed*

      Your boss’ description of overtime is ridiculous. The clock on your workday should start ticking when you start working. So if you are normally 8 to 4, and have to start at 7:30, then either you lave at 3:30 or OT kicks in (this isn’t the most accurate, but I hope you get the gist). If you are hourly in the US, it would be illegal not to pay you. I’m not even getting into the unreasonableness of the request, and the physical requirements and the fact that it’s not part of your job…

      1. Llama face!*

        Oh no, it is like what you say. It’s just that working 7-3 is suckier than working 8-4 so they aren’t giving us any incentive to do that even though it is a start time that is outside of our normal working hours. But if we worked 7-4 we would get that time between 3-4 as overtime.

      2. Llama Face!*

        And the biggest frustration is that this is part of a longstanding pattern of solving any work problem by assigning more work to our workgroup.

    2. Anono-me*

      Walk slowly.

      Seriously if you are walking in terrain that is not pedestrian-friendly and you are carrying multiple objects, please be careful how you walk.

      I would not recommend using a personal vehicle for this without it being compensated and making sure that insurance was in place.

      Unless your boss is reducing other duties accordingly, I would assume that you now have eight and a half hours (or more) of work to do on expedition day.

      However, the first thing I would do is make sure that your reaction is shared by all your co-workers. You may be surprised to find out that this is something one or two of your co-workers would really like to do. If so, please go to your boss as a group and ask if people can volunteer for this new task. (Just try to make sure there’s some sort of system in place, so that people can’t cherry pick the good weather days, then cry off on bad weather days.)

  150. Anonymous at a University*

    Just something the prior post reminded me of…

    I really wish that people would stop saying that giving college students realistic advice is “crushing their dreams.” If someone asks me about a field I know about and I tell them the truth, and they seem discouraged, well, that’s what I know and it might not be the right field for them if a single conversation that includes some very broad and general facts is so discouraging. I had a colleague get upset at me the other day because a student asked if she could become a surgeon with an associate’s degree and I told her “No” and sketched out, broadly, the idea of medical school, the MCAT, residency, etc. According to my colleague, I “crushed this student’s dream,” even though the student just said, “Oh, thanks.” What, was I supposed to lie to her so she could keep dreaming and reassure her that it was perfectly valid for her to get an associate’s of science and then try to call herself a surgeon?

    The thing about dreams is that you have to wake up at some point.

    2. merp*

      You’re so right. Honestly, if it’s something that a student really wants to do, not only will they need all of that info at some point anyway, it may kind of be exciting to hear about how to make it happen! Tone matters a lot too, of course, but as far as the earlier post goes, I thought the parent who wrote in sounded really supportive and encouraging.

    3. Lana Kane*

      There is no such thing as an associate’s in surgery (!), so laying out the path to such career was, in fact, helping their dream.

    4. WellRed*

      Does your coworker also give out participation trophies? Honestly, someone that asked that question doesn’t sound smart enough to be a surgeon.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        You’re right. It brought to mind Jethro Bodine, who wanted to be a brain surgeon, even though he went to school only through the eighth grade.

      2. AnonoDoc*

        I would caution against using “not smart enough” about someone who doesn’t have specific information, and is asking a question. Many people have no idea what the specific training needs are for various fields and it has nothing to do with their intelligence, just what they have been exposed to.

        I have no idea what the training and licensing requirements are to be a llama groomer, but that has nothing to do with my intelligence.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think there is a way to give realistic advice that can come across as crushing (ie, if you presented medical school, MCAT, residency, etc, as insurmountable barriers) but just laying out how you get from Point A to point L via points B-K, nah, that’s realistic and can even be encouraging.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I don’t see that talking about medical school, MCAT, residency, etc. comes across as crushing or insurmountable, because it’s obvious that there are lots and lots of surgeons around, and they all went through medical school, MCAT, residency, etc. I think it’s very strange that a college student would think that you don’t need even a B.A. or B.S. to be a surgeon. If she wants to go into the medical field, maybe she should consider studying to be a dental assistant or dental hygienist or a certified nurse’s aide, something that wouldn’t require nearly as many years of study as a surgeon would need.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I agree, crushing a dream is “You will never make it, you lack talent, don’t even try,” not “It’s very difficult to become an Olympic figure skater and here is an idea of what it would take, what the tradeoffs are, and how challenging it can be.” The second one never says you personally cannot achieve this, but it does allow for having a more realistic view of the dedication it would require, and the likelihood of success, if you sincerely want to try.

    7. Fikly*

      It’s not you crushing their dreams, it’s reality.

      It’s like those people who talk about how you can do anything if only you try hard enough. This is patently untrue. No one is able to do anything. For an extreme example, we have many people running for president. I’m sure they are almost all trying hard. And yet, only one person will win the upcoming presidential election.

  151. LQ*

    I’ve heard something recently I’d like to hear folks thoughts on. I work at a place where all the senior leadership, directors, managers, supervisors, and senior (highly paid) staff are internal promotions. Often from a customer service kind of job into something that usually requires specialized training and the company does the training to get them up to speed. (This is background to set the stage.)

    I’ve heard a large number of people say that someone who leaves and wants to come back “lost their place” or may have to start over or can’t expect to just jump back in with the promotion and/or prestige they may have had when they left. If you were here as a supervisor and would have been considered strongly for the next open manager job, but you left and want to come back as a manager you’ve lost a lot of the consideration for that.

    People leave because they didn’t get promoted fast enough (usually there just wasn’t a spot open even if the person may have been ready, you can’t get your boss’s job when your boss still has it), because they wanted more flexibility (we are not a flexible work culture), or more money. The best of the people (in my opinion) have ended up at places that despite having those things they didn’t like as much (and just toxic jobs) and tried to come back. There is this attitude from folks, including those who want to come back.

    I’d appreciate hearing what others who come from a similar work environment (we are specifically government and union, which may play into this) have to say on this.

    (I know there are some places that will not promote internally, we are not that place.)

    1. Allypopx*

      That sounds weird and culty. Like you don’t get a job because you ‘betrayed the family’ or something. Or that’s my initial, ungenerous reaction anyway.

      I’ve avoided government/union jobs thusfar in my career so I can’t comment on that, but it sounds like a bad business practice. If people with internal knowledge and experience want to come back, that can be very beneficial. I get wanting to reward people who have stayed, and maybe people who never left can get preference or something, but not even letting these people put their hats in the ring seems like a way to miss the best candidates.

      1. LQ*

        Definitely not stopping people from putting their hats in the ring at all. But just sort of a general attitude of it may take longer to get that next step up than it would have. We get a surprising amount of people who come back. Especially if they left for other government agencies because they thought it just wasn’t fast enough here, I think that people have unrealistic expectations. Promote me when I’m ready vs promote someone when there is a need for that skill/role/position. So when people find out that it’s not I’m ready so I get a promotion elsewhere they often end up back here. This includes people who have taken sizable pay cuts to come back and lower levels than they left at. And we’ve had folks come back and get promoted too, so it’s not that it doesn’t happen.

        It does seem weird and culty a little, but I also kind of get it…And that it comes as much from the people who have left as the people who have stayed is weird to me too.

    2. J*

      >we are specifically government and union, which may play into this

      Yep. Government and unions both tend to create elaborate and inflexible rules regarding things like promotion policies and seniority. This is totally normal.

      But let’s assume you worked in a private sector and there was no written rule that governed this situation. Even in that case, I think I would have a hard time promoting someone who left and returned over someone who had stuck through it consistently.

      1. LQ*

        Thank you. I think that it’s good to know it’s normal.

        Weirdly I’ve been thinking of this as a very personal question, but you’re right. If you look at 2 fairly equal candidates and one left because they were unhappy (especially with something that hasn’t actually changed) and then came back vs someone who had been there the whole time. The candidate who stuck around is going to have a foot up.

  152. Anongineer*

    I just interviewed for a super interesting job in a new field (that’s similar to my current one but is different enough to make it challenging) where I’d be working on something new and innovative and be collaborating with experts in the field. However, it’s based where I currently live and I really want to move/work abroad.

    Does anyone have any advice for this situation? Do you take the interesting and rare job or do you hold out for better location and different challenges?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      When you say you want to move/work abroad, how ready are you to do that? As in you’ve figured out logistics and visas etc and are applying for international jobs and you could pretty much go tomorrow if you got a job offer? Or is that more of a “it’s something I’d like to do someday but haven’t really delved into the particulars yet”? Because if it’s the first, maybe hold off on taking the new job if you’re about to leave the country. But if you’re still figuring out how it all might work, I recommend pursuing the new rare fun local job. I’ve never done it myself, but I’m fairly certain an international move/job switch is going to take some time to set up, so I don’t see the harm in pursuing a fun new job opportunity while you try and figure everything out.

      I hope someone with actual experience chimes in, but I know it’s a giant hassle to only relocate within the same city, I can’t imagine how much harder it is to factor in job changing and international borders.

      Good luck!

      1. StellaBella*

        I will second this. I moved abroad from the USA about 10 years ago, and my work sponsored me with a visa, paid for my move, and helped me to find a place to live, get my work permit and health insurance, understand how the health insurance worked, how taxes here and in USA work (yes you are double taxed in some cases based on salary level), how to grocery shop, get a bank, and how to fit in culturally as well. Here are some questions to ask yourself:
        1. Do you know which country you want to move to and work in? Are you able to secure a work permit first or do you need a firm to sponsor you?
        2. Check the IRS site for current level of salary for taxes, it used to be over 75,000USD (?) and you will be taxed in the USA too, so you will need a US-based accountant to help with the forms, esp things like FATCA forms sent from the bank, retirement savings, etc.
        3. What kind of contract will you have? 1-year? 3-year? What are the legal aspects of the work contract? Probation period? If you do not pass probation will you have to move back. to the USA, even if it is only3-6 months later? Who pays for that? Will you be entitled to unemployment in new country if something like this happens – there may be a time period required for working before using this benefit.
        4. Banking: if you are American, opening a bank account in some countries can be difficult unless sponsored by a firm. Ask about this. Taxes in country too, related to finances….check on these. :)
        5. Moving stuff: I had most small stuff shipped and customs was a challenge at times – as had things shipped in 3 different times, by DHL, once I got settled. Moving for me took 8 weeks to organise, rent out my house, pack and get stuff ready to ship.
        6. Language issues: if you move will you need language and culture courses to integrate?
        7. On the visa thing: 90 days max stay with no work allowed in the EU for Americans, Schengen area, other places have different rules – you need a job ideally before you move, if you want to be safe.
        8. Living: how does one find a place to live in the new country? What documents will you need to rent or buy (work contract, permit for residence, deposit amount can be up to 3 months’ rent for example).

        Good luck – I don’t want to scare you, but moving abroad is not easy. I would hold out for a firm to bring you to a new country, their support will be helpful.

  153. J*

    >we are specifically government and union, which may play into this

    Yep. Government and unions both tend to create elaborate and inflexible rules regarding things like promotion policies and seniority. This is totally normal.

    But let’s assume you worked in a private sector and there was no written rule that governed this situation. Even in that case, I think I would have a hard time promoting someone who left and returned over someone who had stuck through it consistently.

  154. Fabulous*

    How do you reply to an IM from someone you don’t know who just says, “Hi”?

    Seriously, how is this a thing?! Who are you? Why are you IMing me? Can you give me a little background as to why I should stop what I’m doing and reply to you? I see you’re supposedly part of our the overarching “team” but I have no idea what your job is or why you’d need MY help. Presumably you have your own contact for this sort of thing?

    *Rant over, SMH*

    1. Close Bracket*

      lol, I get that this was a rant and not an actual ask for advice, but why should that stop me? I’ve noticed some people do the “Hi!” thing or similar as a way of basically saying, “Are you available right now?” Now, why can’t they just write a complete sentence or freaking call? Idk, but that’s what it is. Reply back with, “Hi, did you need me for something?”

      1. tangerineRose*

        I usually just say “hi” and feel annoyed – I wish people would just ask me whatever it is already.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      No advice, but this is my PET PEEVE.

      I usually wait quite awhile, then say “Hi, is there something I can help you with?” while hoping they catch the eyerolls I’m virtually sending their way.

      1. BadWolf*

        Me too!! Tell me what you want and I’ll ponder it and answer as appropriate.

        I’ve come to the conclusion that I think of IM/Slack/etc as an answering machine or voice mail.

        Some people treat it as a phone call.

        So I think the phone call people are annoying. The phone call people probably thing I’m rude and demanding.

    3. Nicki Name*

      I feel the same even if it’s someone I do know. Usually I’ll wait and see if it’s followed up with a request or more info before replying.

        1. ForOneDollar*

          Why would you do that? Is not the expectation in your organization that you will respond courteously and timely to all your co-workers?

          1. Fabulous*

            It gives me anxiety to reply to something where I have no idea the outcome or reason. Going inactive is an indication of courtesy as I gather the wherewithal to withstand the impending task.

            Or people could be courteous forthrightly and we could avoid this entire situation :/

    4. ForOneDollar*

      “Hi, can I help you?” I’d rather someone ping me for availability than launch into an essay about what they need.

    5. Rick Tq*

      A blind IM is same as a mis-dialed number to me. I just ignore the message and move on, same way I usually ignore calls from numbers I don’t recognize on caller ID.

  155. Thany*

    I wanted advice on how to approach personality tests/assessments/integrity tests for job applications. My role is assisting deaf and hard of hearing individuals in employment. The tests are not something I have ever been good at myself and I want to help my clients to the best of my ability. The second issue is that they DO NOT translate well to American Sign Language (for example, American Sign Language is very straightforward and does not use double negatives which those assessments have ALL the time). They end up taking twice as long as I assist the client through them. I know the key is to be consistent, but I’m not sure if I’m helping them do that. (in one case I know for a fact a client failed an integrity test and I have no idea why). Any advice is appreciated!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is it possible for you to speak with whomever is overseeing the testing and explain the intricacies of translation? As I recall, ASL doesn’t do a literal translation of the written word, just sort of the main points of the sentence. By throwing in the weird doublespeak, you’ve made both your job and the applicant’s job much harder. Perhaps together yall could arrive at a pared down question/answer for the assessment that conveys the same meaning while still avoiding the double negatives?

      1. Thany*

        A lot of these are through online retail position applications, so I don’t know if there is a way around them. I still have to go through them to apply and I can follow up with the employer afterwards. I just wanted to see if there was a good way to get through them that will help me know the answers and advise the clients correctly. Yes, ASL interprets the meaning of the sentence rather than word by word. It’s just the meaning in English can be really abstract and hard to relay accurately.

  156. Arrietty*

    I might be too late… but a job I’m really interested in opened up. But it’s for a famous chicken company that is not LGBT friendly via the CEO. I have a friend who tells me that it’s just the CEO and the day to day at corporate would be fine, and anything I google I can’t find much. One comment said “if you’re not loud about your alternate lifestyle, they’re very tolerant.” But I don’t want to just be tolerated… I don’t know, the job does sound so interesting but the company….. does anyone know what it’s like working for a company that is pretty religious but as a non-religious/LGBT person?

    1. Cold-Calling Catastrophe*

      From my experience with working at a company like this, day-to-day it’s okay, but occasionally someone will say something off-color. And sometimes they’ll say something really monstrous. For people who are LGBT, there isn’t really any recourse. So it would be totally chill 90% of the time, and then any LGBT people (who were not out when they worked there) would be reminded that they were disliked or hated.

    2. Forkeater*

      This isn’t exactly the same, but I’m in higher ed, and took a job at a church-affiliated college thinking it would be fine, even though I’m not a member of the religion. I’m a member of a similar religion, so I thought maybe that would be close enough. Over time, it really began to bother me, as the college’s religion was more conservative than my own, and I disagreed strongly with some of the ways this played out. It was a great place to work in many ways, but really awful in many ways too. The best and worst job I ever had, probably!

    3. PK*

      I think some of it is based on geographically where you’ll be located. For example, I know people who work for a conservative news outlet, but a regional office that does the IT work is in Los Angeles and primarily staffed mostly by people who disagree with the parent company’s position and are out at work. I think this would not be the case at an office in a conservative state.

    4. Bex*

      Tolerance and inclusion are very different things. I personally would really struggle working for a company that didn’t want me to be my authentic self at work.

  157. Overeducated*

    My new boss will be an old boss! Hooray! I won’t have to prove myself to someone new as I return from maternity leave because the person who will fill the manager position that has been vacant almost 2 years was the person who detailed in longest. I’m surprised because I thought they didn’t like the job, but glad it’s a known quantity and ive already proven myself.

  158. Out of Left Field*

    Folks who have switched fields or into a job in a very different area, and you’re interviewing for the job, what’s the best way to get over nerves?? And prepare?

    I was honest in my cover letter that I didn’t have experience in that particular field, but I had transferable skills and somehow got an interview… now I’m reading up on theories and best practices for that field, but I’m so nervous. I didn’t think I’d get this far!

    1. MissGirl*

      What helped me was to get really clear in my own brain about the value I bring. I was lucky in that I had good career people to talk this out with and find those transferable skills. I had to figure out what I brought that others didn’t.

      Even if they didn’t question my background, it gave me confidence.

  159. Anonymous Fed*

    How does one decide whether to take a job or wait on a likely promotion at your current job? My current job is fine and I really like my very supportive coworkers and the office has a good work-life balance, but I’ve struggled in recent years with staying interested in the subject matter. It seems likely that I will get a job offer soon for a new job that may be slightly more interesting work. At my current job, I was passed over last year for a promotion when my coworkers thought I had it in the bag. They made it their mission to put me in an excellent position this year for a promotion (great and supportive coworkers), but it’s not guaranteed and my near-miss last year was what prompted me to start applying elsewhere. In addition, the job offer would come before promotion announcements, which are still a few months out. The likely promotion and job offer are almost identical otherwise (government), so how does one decide?

    1. WellRed*

      Would the commute be better or worse? Are there more opps for advancement at the other place or will the other place position you for further moves down the line? This all assumes pay and benefits are basically the same at either place. Also, how will you feel if you opt to stay and don’t get the promotion? Your coworkers may be supportive, but that doesn’t mean management will promote you.

      1. Anonymous Fed*

        Yeah, the advancement opportunity question is one I’ll be asking along with a boatload of others on work-life balance (those are the only real differences). If I get the promotion, the next one is probably a long way off. Commute would be slightly better, but we’re talking maybe a 5-10 minute difference, so it’s not factoring in too much.

        That’s good thought about how I’ll feel if I stay and don’t get that promotion – it sucked last year, but that feeling would be so much worse this year…

      2. Anonymous Fed*

        This is what keeps me thinking about staying – I really like my coworkers and I’ve been around long enough to get to know all the processes. By now, I have a good idea of how to get to work on the types of projects I would like to work on. I’d be starting over with a lot if I go elsewhere.

    3. irene adler*

      Can you have the “what does my future here at Current Company look like ?” conversation with boss?

      Maybe have this conversation right after receiving the job offer. If the response is lukewarm or you are put off with a non-answer, then bring up the job offer. Be prepared to also submit a resignation.

      Did you get an explanation as to why you were passed over? Or were you offered some concrete suggestions on how to improve so as to get the next promotion?

      Finally, how will you feel if you turn down the job offer and are passed over for another promotion?

      Sometimes you just have to move on regardless of what might happen (promotion), so that you can partake of what will happen (a new job).

    4. Daisy-dog*

      I was in a similar situation and I took the new job. I am happy with my decision overall, but I do miss a lot about my old company. I have not formed the same connections to my co-workers. My potential promotion was very iffy, so that’s what pushed me out. My career growth has been much better since leaving. Definitely consider what you value most!

  160. Redux*

    Managers! I need your advice on keeping up with multiple direct reports and their multiple projects.

    So far I’ve been keeping a paper list of all the open projects, status, and point person, but it’s quickly become unwieldy as I’ve learned there are multiple steps and shifting people responsible depending on the step. I’m new to management so just learning how to stay on top of all the projects.

    What is a good tool for tracking my 4 direct reports who oversee 4 distinct bureaus, and multiple reports of their own, each with a dozen open projects at a time? I’m afraid my handwritten notebook isn’t cutting it anymore and I’m looking for a digital solution. I tried outlook Tasks but didn’t find it appealing.

    2. Jules the First*

      I ask all my direct reports to use the same Excel status log template to track their projects. That way, if I need to dip in and see what’s up, the info is already in a standard format that’s easy for me to assimilate. The master list of ongoing projects lives in a separate Excel that the senior team members are responsible for communicating updates to. I manage 250+ projects a year and nine direct reports with this system.

      Also – do you need to have the kind of granular awareness of these projects that your list of lists implies, or could you lean more on your direct reports to communicate status of their various projects and tasks?

      1. Redux*

        I do need the granular awareness for now. I am new to this org and not a subject matter expert, so I am learning as I go by tracking what my bureau heads (who are subject matter experts) are doing. It’s possible I won’t need it in the future as I become more familiar with the work, but I have a feeling not. Right now I am being asked questions like, “where are we on X project?” and my answer needs to be “direct report A taking the lead, N from other department flagged a budget issue and passed it over to M in the budget division who said he would respond by Friday.”

  161. labicyclette*

    Any advice for working with a colleague (early 30s F) who cannot read social cues? We know that the autism spectrum is at play here (she has mentioned a diagnosis), but some of her behavior is just sort of… rude? It’s hard to know what is rude to the point that it’s worth chatting with her or her supervisor, and what is just a result of being on the spectrum and beyond her easy control.
    She tends to put the brakes on any conversation happening within in earshot (open office) because she will interject from across the room with only tangentially related anecdotes. Sometimes it’s things like saying that “it’s been proven” that people like her who have been home schooled are “smarter than people who attended public school,” or that she dislikes bald men because she associates them with abusers (because she once knew a bald man who was abusive to his wife), when at least three coworkers within 10 feet of her, are either bald or married to bald men. She also adjusts the room lights to her preference (bright), when the other 6 people who sit in her area have asked her to please keep them low.
    Should we just be blunt with her? “Leave the lights low, and use your desk lamp please. The vast majority of people prefer it.” “It’s not thoughtful to tell colleagues that you think they are less intelligent than you because of our childhood educational backgrounds.” etc.? Who should have these conversations with her? When? In the moment, or afterwards?

    1. WellRed*

      For the things you really need to address (lights), yeah, I’d be pleasant but blunt. Being subtle does not work with people who don’t read social cues. I’d try and let some of the other things go (“I don’t like bald men”–pause and then continue the conversation), annoying that they may be. You don’t want to correct her on everything. That’s stuff I”d do in the moment. Bigger picture: If the “I am smarter than you” stuff and interrupting continues frequently, her manager should probably have a conversation with her about how she’s coming across in the workplace.

      1. The Engineer*

        ” . . be pleasant but blunt.” They won’t see it as blunt, just you providing ‘information’. Be prepared for their followup questions about said information. They may take some integrate what you have provided. Not really different than correction with other employees, it just happens in a seemingly (to you) awkward way.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Address the interjecting from across the room without addressing the content. It really doesn’t matter what she, or anyone else, thinks of bald men or homeschooling, but it’s not OK to interject into a conversation that she’s not a party to, even if she can hear you having it. For the lights, just let her know that the majority rules on this one. Since the majority prefer the lights low, the lights will remain that way unless/until the majority prefer them bright — the only caveat on that is if she genuinely needs the bright lights to do her full job and needs accommodation. Everyone can have these conversations with her in the moment if the situation allows, as long as it’s not disruptive to a client meeting for instance, or as shortly after as possible — don’t wait days. These should be done matter-of-factly and not like she’s a Bad Person.

    3. Fikly*

      As someone on the spectrum who misses social cues, I am thankful when people actually communicate directly with me.

      Because I can’t change my behavior if I don’t know a problem exists, and when people don’t speak with me directly, they tend to let things build up into a simmering stew of rage and then lash out in what to me, seems out of nowhere.

  162. Pan Troglodytes*

    I have a few things I need to vent about re. gender at work: I have been in the world of work for about 5 years since graduating. I work in a field that is generally considered open-minded, with awareness on gender and race, etc. The field and my company probably higher over 50% women. However, despite this, the same old stuff seems to happen. Over time, I have noticed men from higher income backgrounds tend to get the best benefits in terms of pay, good projects, and other career boosting benefits.

    I’ve also noticed something that really gets under my skin: whenever I am in a room with male colleagues, they treat me respectfully enough. But with each other, they slap each other on the back, laugh loudly, shake hands in a matey way, and generally talk in a way that is far more friendly than they ever talk with women. It creates a very bro-ey vibe and a sense that I’m not included in on the basis of having tits.

    Finally, in group meetings, especially with more senior people around, I experience frequently that men repeat and over talk me or other women and then get the credit.

    All of these together build up until I’m so angry I can hardly talk, which makes matters worse!

    Do other people have experience of this? I’m just soooo sick of it and hearing others’ stories and experiences is cathartic.

    Whie I know there is discussion in the media on some of these aspects, having a journalist explain them to me is not the same as hearing people’s stories! So if you know any blogs on inequality around gender, race or class at work- I would be super interested.

    Thanks!

    PT

    1. Alianora*

      Yep! I don’t have any specific stories or blog recommendations, but the whole thing about male coworkers being all bro-y with each other and then reserved and held back with women really resonates. And with the interrupting and talking over women. I’m in a female-dominated office too. Have not observed this with the men on my immediate team but some of the other men in the office do this. And I’m positive that the guys who do this don’t even think about their behavior, to them it’s just the natural order of things. So frustrating.

      1. Pan Troglodytes*

        Yes, completely understand it’s not a 100% down the line men/women thing- it also intersects with personality (quietness, confidence, etc), and men can be left outside and women can be included. Women are also very often just as sexist and are almost as guilty of overtalking women, crediting their idead to men, and assuning men to be more competent. We were all raised to think in this sexist way.

        Just so very tired of it. It has very tangible career and lifestyle impacts.

        1. Close Bracket*

          #mengetthistoo comments add about as much to the discussion as #notallmen comments, and you don’t have to make a bunch of qualifying statements to discuss gendered behavior.

        2. Fikly*

          The women who behave badly toward other women are doing it out of internalized self-hatred because they grew up in a society where men who benefit from holding power force their views on women.

          So no, the women are not as guilty.

  163. MusicWithRocksInIt*

    Just had a job interview, and none of the five people I spoke to over two hours gave me their business cards. I coordinated with out of state HR to set up the interview, so now I don’t have the email addresses with anyone I interviewed with and no way to send a thank you note. I checked the emails that I do have and the corporate email addresses seem to include their middle initials, which I don’t have, so now i’m stuck. Does that mean they don’t want me to reach out? I could send a message on LinkedIn, but that feels kinda pushy, like it’s outside the arena we were dealing in. I’m not sure what to do.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      Do you have an email for the HR contact? Send the thank you emails to that person and ask them to forward.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. I was specifically not given direct contact info for people I interviewed with at one place (company policy, apparently) so the HR person said I should send thanks to them and they would forward it or use LinkedIn if I felt more comfortable that way.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Just email the HR person asking them to send it on to the search committee, super common, and less invasive for everyone else (it can be hit or miss, I think, of whether people find tracking them down as “initiative vs. annoying”).

    4. fhqwhgads*

      It does not mean they don’t want you to reach out. All it means is they didn’t give you their business cards. I haven’t had business cards in nearly 10 years. They may, but don’t read too much into it.

  164. Burned out to a crisp*

    Thoughts on taking vacation time that hasn’t been pre-approved?

    I work in a very small office and just barely survived a month of covering for two other co-workers, a persistent sinus infection, and an enormous amount of stress, worry, and lack of sleep due to some personal things I had going on.

    Co-workers are back, sinus infection clearing up, and personal issues are being resolved. But I still just feel absolutely EXHAUSTED. I need a break, and more than just two weekend days, most of which will be spent running errands and giving the house a much-needed clean and organization. I saw my therapist yesterday and she said “Please, for the sake of your mental health, TAKE A BREAK. You need it and you deserve it. You can keep going in to work but you won’t do as good of a job if you don’t rest.”

    I’m a good, reliable employee who rarely takes sick time or vacation time. I want to take off on Monday, but my supervisor left for a meeting soon after I arrived. I didn’t know if she’d return after the meeting (she didn’t) but I emailed her my vacation request anyway.

    tl;dr Is it okay to take vacation/mental health day on Monday when my supervisor hasn’t approved it? It’s not my fault she didn’t return to the office after her meeting, and I can’t think of any reason why my request wouldn’t be approved.

    2. PK*

      You can’t do this now since you’ve already asked, but generally for one day when you’re not sure if you’d get approved for a vacation day, I’d call in sick Mon morning, especially if I was treating it like a sick/real rest day in the sense I wasn’t going to go on a weekend ski trip and be posting photos to social media.

      For now, can you text your supervisor and say “hey not sure if you’ll be on your email but I put in a request for a day off on Mon – just wanted to [make sure you’re aware] or [if that’s ok].”

      Ultimately you probably have a better sense than we do how your supervisor feels about last minute requests and whether you need genuine permission or if they trust you to manage your own workload and time.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      This should be fine, but it does depend on your relationship, your role, and your company culture. Do you and your manager ever text? If so, then let her know by text. If not, might be good to call-in on Monday as if you were calling in sick. However, will she check her email before the end of today? You may get your answer that way.

      1. Daisy-dog*

        To clarify – don’t call in pretending to be sick. Just follow those call-in guidelines. “Hey, I emailed you on Friday about taking today off – just wanted to be sure that was okay.” I know it’s obnoxious because the thing that I often look forward to the most on personal days is sleeping in, but it may be the best option if you don’t have another way to contact her.

    4. Mia 52*

      Hmm- This definitely would not be OK at my office. I see a lot of people saying it will be fine but this would be a huge problem and you would be asked why you took a day off without approval or acknowledgment. I’m pretty surprised most people are saying this is fine. Next time I would just call out sick since you are healing from a sinus infection/need a mental health day. Or if you have a close relationship you could text your boss.

      1. Exhausted*

        I did exactly this on Friday. I worked over the Christmas ‘break’ with very tight deadlines for first week of Jan, then did a tonne of overtime this week. The expectation in my office is that you work loads if overtime simply out of love of the job, but by the end of the week I could barely move I was so exhausted. So I took a fairly transparent ‘sick’ day. In my view, it’s utterly reasonable- you CANNOT kep working when exhausted- your work will be underpar and something majorly bad could happen

    5. Fikly*

      Rephrase this in your head. It’s not a vacation day. It’s a sick day. You are taking it off because your health is suffering and you need to recover.

  165. Liane*

    This just in! College Question!
    My daughter just applied to a local fashion college and has an interview next week! Financing shouldn’t be a problem, as my late in-laws left an education trust. I know better than to get involved in all this–but I still can’t help asking here if I should suggest she have some sort of portfolio, or at least pictures of the costumes she makes for cosplay?

    Also cool backstory on this–Daughter was talking with Customer about the app for the Big Grocery Store where she works and they went on talk about apps for other stores, including National Fabric Shop, which somehow got to my daughter’s cosplay and fashion interests. Turns out Customer is very high up at local Fashion College & encouraged her to apply. She told Daughter “I want to see your application, soon.” And Daughter took Customer at her word–so now an interview! I am so happy for her!

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Yes!! Take a portfolio. This is one of the few areas where that makes complete and total sense.

      1. Liane*

        I hope Daughter knows what a portfolio should have–or someone here can chime in. I know what one is, but nothing more. Even though I’ve been doing cosplay for longer than she’s been alive.

        1. Reba*

          If the school wants a portfolio, they will have instructions about what they want to see. It will probably involve uploading stuff to Slideroom or a similar service.

          Also, I think you can be somewhat involved in this! Just not over-involved :)

    2. Liane*

      Thanks TotesMaGoats & Reba. Just what I needed to hear. She is eager & the family is happy for her.

  166. Gut check*

    I need to get a read on what is reasonable in this situation though I am not a direct participant so feel free to be blunt.

    Say you are a landlord for a small building with 3 apartments. The income does not pay for your food or housing, but does pay for important items that you shouldn’t just skip – something of importance equivalent to Medicare supplemental insurance. The newest tenant moved in last August but his December rent check bounced and he didn’t pay January at all. He says he is job searching but currently absolutely cannot pay (down to his last $100) and asks for some time to find a job, he’ll pay you back, etc. His background check when he moved in was clean but problems this early on… How long do you give it? Is it reasonable to say no, it’s been 2 months, sorry but I can’t afford to house you for free? Or do you wait longer? 3 months? More? What is standard/acceptable practice?

    Additional info: The income from 2 units is used to cover the cost of the building and upkeep, etc. You need all 3 to be rented to gain any benefit. It is in an area where apartments do not sit empty for more than a few weeks so it hasn’t been a problem.

    1. WellRed*

      Three months is generous (more than, really, but let’s be human)I. He’s otherwise just going to get deeper and deeper in the hole and won’t be able to pay it back. At any rate, even though he’s not paying rent, there is likely still a process to go through to get him out if he won’t go quietly. The landlord might want to consult a lawyer, or at least have on on speed dial.

    2. CatCat*

      This sucks for all involved, but I think it’s reasonable to start the process of evicting the tenant.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      How difficult is it to evict a tenant in this area? I’d probably go ahead and start the process, but especially if it tends to be drawn out.

    4. Alex*

      I think many landlords would start the eviction process after just missing one month of rent–and now this tenant has missed two. It could take a person months to find a job! You can’t have that being the thing that drives whether or not you collect rent.

      Also in many places it takes a bit of time for the tenant to actually be evicted so it’s not like you’ll be making him homeless tomorrow.

      1. Mia 52*

        Yes the landlord in my family evicts on the 14th of the month if rent hasn’t been paid. So two weeks. Funny how people come up with money all of a sudden when you tell them you’re starting eviction proceedings in 3 days.

    5. AnotherJD*

      File for eviction now. I have no idea what it’s like in your area, but the sheriff who conducts the evictions in my area is usually backed up by a couple of months. Plus there may be local restrictions on evictions not taking place in cold weather which can also delay the process.

    6. irene adler*

      Landlord needs to take care of herself.
      There should be social service avenues available for tenant to assist with rent payment -or housing even-while he gets employment.

    7. Mia 52*

      What? You should evict him immediately because he isn’t paying rent and has no means to pay it in the future. Give him three months of free rent? It could take 6 months for him to get a job and then he’d still owe you all the back rent.

      1. Gut check*

        Thanks all. This was sort of my feeling too – that this is a business relationship (thus Friday thread) and you signed a contract that exists for a reason.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Couple of things:

      1) Even in the most landlord friendly states (Texas), I’m pretty sure it takes 2-4 weeks from filing to eviction. In my state (not Texas) it’s at least 30 days after filing that you’ll get to court. Then, you have to actually get the person out, which can take longer if they don’t leave quietly. If you live in a more tenant-friendly state, you could be looking at 60+ days from filing, plus the judge may give them an extra 30 days to vacate. So, google your state and find the average eviction time. Can you afford to wait that long without payment, plus the time to clean and re-rent?

      2) My understanding is that you can always file and then suspend the filing when they pay up. That way you don’t lose any time on the eviction if you end up needing to.

      Mrlandlord dot com has a good forum with some pretty sage people about this. (Didn’t want to put the link because of moderation, but google will give you that back in the top results.)

      3) His record may have been clean, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t done this before. There are landlords that may have said “if you leave quietly by x and don’t trash the house, I won’t file for eviction”. It happens. I’m not saying it has in this case, but there are plenty of people that talk a good game but are shysters underneath.

      1. Flyleaf*

        Yes, it can take a while to get through the eviction process. That’s why you file on the first possible day.

        I agree with the comment about the mrlandlord web site and forum. Very useful advice from landlords that have seen it all.

    9. Flyleaf*

      File for eviction TODAY. In fact you should have filed over a month ago. This is a business, you need to handle it like a business. If you are uncomfortable doing this, you should sell the building to someone else.

      1. Flyleaf*

        Also, if the tenant bounced a check, you should contact the district attorney. In many places bouncing a check is a crime.

    10. Nee Attitude*

      This is the exact reason why it is necessary (according to whatever your local laws allow) to charge a security deposit before the tenant ever moves into the property.

      If I were in your shoes, the moment I received a bounced check I would notify the tenant. If the tenant replies with anything other than “I’m very sorry; I will cut you a cashier’s check or money order for the rent immediately,” then I would start eviction proceedings. In my state, proceedings start with a 30-day notification to the tenant that they are to pay rent or quit (leave).

      Given my experience, this tenant will not pay you back: first, they failed to notify you that they lacked sufficient funds for December; second, they failed to notify you about their overall financial hardship.

      As a landlord, you should have a written policy in place (that your tenants know about and sign that they agree) that addresses issues like this so that you’re not having to deliberate with a difficult tenant or having to suffer financial hardship. The policy is also essential as documentation that you are not evicting someone for a covered reason. I’m very sorry this is happening to you.

      Note: I am not a lawyer, but I am a former certified property manager.

  167. Decima Dewey*

    Hello, everyone.

    My library system is eliminating fines on items not returned on time. It turned out that this posed a barrier to library use by low income patrons, and that some of them were afraid to come to the library because of what they owed. We will still charge for lost or damaged materials. If you drop a James Baldwin novel into your bathwater, you’ll have to for it or replace it. (If it’s on a handheld device you dropped into your bathwater–well, we’ll miss you). Part of the process is that fines currently on patron records are being removed, starting with the oldest ones. We’ve been sent FAQs for patrons who ask about it. Two of the questions are about patrons who have paid fines and would like them refunded. The wording is tactful, but it amounts to they can want all they like, we aren’t giving out refunds.

    My boss, Mr. Lastname, ordered two books from another branch. Now, my system has 50 some locations. The way shipments to another branch are handled is that branch X prints out their send item list, pulls the books requested if they find them on the shelves, scan the barcode and throw the books into a bin. The driver picks up the bins, takes them to the sorting center, which tosses the books into other bins and whenever the branch gets a delivery they scan the books and notify patrons that the books they ordered are in. If it sounds slow, it is. Getting a book from one branch to another can take a week or longer, and that’s if everything goes right. Anyway, Mr. Lastname came to my desk and said he was expecting some books and that according to the circulation system, they’d been in transit three or four doors. I suppressed the urge to say “and?”. He wanted to know if there was a way to find out what truck the books he ordered were on. Short answer, no.

    At our last cluster meeting, two police officers came out to tell us what information we should expect to provide when we call 911. The subject of guns in the library came up. Because of local concealed carry rules, people are allowed to bring guns in, as long as we can’t see them. If someone comes in with a gun we can see, the police encouraged us to call 911 and let them deal with it. Mr. Lastname said he disagreed and that he’d go to talk to the patron. What if the patron didn’t know they weren’t supposed to have the gun out in the open? The police asked what Mr. Lastname would do if the guy with the gun refused to leave. He went on to argue a little more, said he wouldn’t be scared, then said “But it’s bad customer service!” Hipster librarian seated behind us said “You’re going there?” and reminded Mr. Lastname that we’d been asked to save questions and comments until the end. To me there’s a difference between helping someone find the book they want and getting someone posing a danger to the staff and patrons out of the library.

    That said, things have gotten better. I had jury duty in November, and got put on a panel for a civil case. So the library had to do without me, and the world didn’t come to an end, so I’ve felt better about pushing back.

    1. Talk Dewey To Me*

      Oooh, we were just discussing guns in the library at a meeting earlier this week.

      It’s a complex situation where there’s not an easy answer. I work in an open carry state, but at the same time we want our staff and patrons to feel and be safe. Our SOP was updated to say something like “No use of weapons in the library.” So someone can have a gun or knife visibly on them, but can’t draw it.

      Of course local laws considered, but I would absolutely not ask a patron to leave because they are openly carrying a gun. You just never know what will set someone off. Calling 911 and letting the police handle it is probably your best bet.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re getting rid of fines around here and I find it a great update to the system.

      I’m cringing so hard at the gun question. Customer service is at the forefront of someone’s mind if they see someone with a gun out in the open?! Anyone with a permit should know the rules on open carry ffs and typically buildings owned or ran by a government entity don’t even allow them inside concealed, let alone open carry *mind boggles*

      And why not just call the cops? They’re going to approach the individual pretty much the same and have the authority and their own weapon on them in case of it escalates.

      It is not bad customer service to not risk yours and the public’s safety instead of calling the police. Jeez.

      1. Talk Dewey To Me*

        I feel the same way about Mr. Lastname wanting to prioritize customer service over safety. Unfortunately, there’s a reason libraries have “hidden” Panic Buttons and staff have to take Active Shooter Training.

    3. Llama Face!*

      Haha, my most recent library hold just came in and it had been in transit for 21 days. 4-5 days is nothing! A lot of the small locations in my province will change the library system to say the book is in transit as soon as they pull the book from the shelves, even if they only have a mass send-out once a week/biweekly/monthly. So it may look like it is in transit for *forever* when in reality it hasn’t even left their building. But it is just a book, not food or medicine. I’m just grateful that we have an excellent free province-wide library system with a ton of materials (as well as several ebook and audiobook sites we can loan books from with our library card).

      I like your library’s new no-fines policy. Our library will do seasonal programs to forgive overdue fines, but they haven’t gotten rid of them entirely (probably because they need the money). In the summer there is usually one where you can hang out at the library and get $5 in fines forgiven for each hour you are there and during the Christmas holiday break they suspend fees for any materials returned late during that period.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      Many libraries around here don’t charge fines to those over 60. They have very few programs for working age adults.

  168. RZ*

    Don’t know if you remember my post on here from a couple of years ago, anyway, my husband and I have decided to leave the firm and go our own way.
    Don’t think the powers that be were too happy, but they’ll have to live with it.
    Wish me luck!!

  169. My Brain Is Exploding*

    So excited that my friend who has been out of the job force for years got a job! The pay is very low, but the working conditions are good and low stress (think small local retail). So thankful that someone took a chance on her! And now she is getting experience!

  170. N*

    My mom is worried that she may be laid off or her position eliminated and/or she won’t get the internal position that she applied for (and was told to apply for). She has an associate’s degree but at least 15 years experience in her current role, which is in the tech industry. Any advice for her job search if she needs to start doing that? Can that level of experience truly outweigh those with higher degrees? Not having a bachelor’s is what worries her most, although her technical experience level is high. She’s the only one who does her job on her team so sometimes she feels completely indispensable but other times she gets discouraged when she’s not busy working on a project, etc. Any advice would be helpful!!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Experience is crucial when it comes to most roles, especially in the tech industry. Because to be honest, your schooling is outdated super quick. You have to show that you are able to adapt and continue to learn systems, since they’re readily evolving and nobody is staying in school the entire time, does that make sense?

      She will always be behind a bachelors though because that’s a different level than an associates. But her experience plus her degree would out weight a higher degree and only a drop of experience or no experience.

      If she’s applying for jobs that only require an associates anyways, her experience should put her out in front in that case. But again, she has to be able to demonstrate that over the course of those years, she’s learned and evolved.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I can’t say for certain without knowing your mom’s exact industry/skills, but experience can absolutely outweigh degrees. My husband is senior staff in the tech industry and he didn’t finish college, and a lot of his coworkers and execs didn’t either. It was a similar story at his last few companies too so it’s not just a one off. Granted it isn’t the same for every company, but in tech practical experience and ability can absolutely be more valuable than a degree.

    3. Popoorme*

      I have been there and done that without a college degree at all. I had what you call electronic technician diploma.

      Work for 20 years is an electronic technician and I made the job switch to a junior engineering position and got promoted based on my ability to learn and apply what I knew from previous jobs.

      I retired from my job is a senior manufacturing engineer level 3, one of only a handful of people to attain that position in a company of 6000 employees.

      Fortunately the company looked beyond my lack of a degree and saw my experience, ability to learn and I became their resident material expert on processes I had no experience with.

      There are companies out there who appreciate experience more than an unrelated college degree that is not applicable.

  171. PK*

    This question is for any people here who have experience working in the entertainment industry in the US, especially large studios/corporations. Is this industry an exception to the “don’t accept a counteroffer” ?

    So many people in the biz have given me the advice to bring an offer to negotiate a raise (I have unsuccessfully attempted to bring my salary to market rate). Even my boss once offhandedly told me not to leave without seeing what they could counteroffer. (I wasn’t looking at the time and it was kind of random that he said that.) I’m not sure if this means it’s not frowned upon at studios, or if it’s just that lots of people have bad advice.

  172. Sloan Kittering*

    Soo … I’ve posted before that I’m unhappy at my job. It’s not abusive, I just don’t like much about it – the kind of work I’m doing, the attitude towards employees, or my relationship with my boss. I think she would say things are fine with me (she has bigger fish to fry), but I’m not satisfied so I’ve been looking for a while. Now a friend is offering to let me join her freelance business and has enough work to keep me afloat for the next six months, and I’m thinking of taking it even though I was originally looking for a full time job with benefits. I was planning to quit next week.

    I have a coworker my boss seems to dislike. The pay here isn’t spectacular and there’s been no raises for almost two years so I think we’ve been lucky to have him. He has confessed to me that he believes she’s documenting stuff to fire him, and he’s decided that he’s going to quit ASAP because he’s miserable.

    If I told her I was planning to leave, do you think she’d be happier keep him? Is that a calculation hiring managers make? I also anticipate that as soon as he quits, she will reassign me half of his work, so I want to give her the heads up that I’m not planning to stick around either. However, I know it’s going to be an unpleasant situation no matter what. I don’t really have a time crunch to leave and arguably I could stay longer to smooth out the transition, but I’m not super inclined to do that purely from generosity of spirit.

    Thoughts?

    1. Allypopx*

      I don’t think you need to worry about it. Quit, do your thing, your coworker will figure out his own situation. Even if she’d be happier to keep him, he doesn’t sound happy, and it sounds like she’s going to lose both of you regardless. She can decide to work harder to keep him when you quit, if that’s what she wants to do. But these things happen and it’s her job to figure it out. I’d just stick with your plan and let the chips fall where they may.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I think my only issue (and I wasn’t clear enough) is that he’s going to quit a week *before* I was planning to quit. But you’re right, his happiness won’t really change no matter what I do, mostly it’s just going to make my potential quitting really, really poorly timed now :( At least I’m planning to give three week’s notice, as far as I know he is not.

        1. Flyleaf*

          If you are feeling generous, you might want to let your coworker know that you are leaving. Once you leave the likelihood of coworker being fired is diminished, so if they are willing to stay while looking for something else, they might appreciate the notice.

          1. valentine*

            Base your actions on your needs. Don’t cruise direct. Maybe the guy doesn’t want to stay, especially if he’d be assigned your work. Maybe your boss wants to cut him loose at all costs or prefers to hire two people.

            But also look out for yourself with this freelancing, especially if you are financially entangled in it. What will you do if the friendship or the business suffers?

  173. Elixir Mixer*

    Employee giving in non-profits. Your thoughts?

    I recently wrote a LinkedIn post about asking non-profit employees to give to the non-profit they work for. It was inspired by an email, last week, notifying me of my last recurring donation to the non-profit I left 3 mos ago. In January 2019, our new ED asked us to give so we’d have 100% employee giving but there wasn’t more to it than that. I could give so I set up a 12-mos recurring gift but I knew a coworker who couldn’t afford to give and I knew she’d have to explain that to our boss why. I’ve never been asked to give to the non-profit I’ve worked so I was surprised by the request. When I decided to leave I also decided that stopping my gift would be seen as spiteful (and since it wasn’t an amicable break-up, I didn’t want that to be part of my departing persona). Thus I don’t believe non-profit employees should be asked, either under the guise of ‘an option’ or impressed upon request, to give to their workplace.

    Have you been asked and what was the reason your leadership gave for asking you to give?

    What inspired you to give?

    Did you have to explain why you couldn’t or didn’t want to give? What happened?

    Did you know a/any co-workers couldn’t give and this would have been a problem for them?

    1. Allypopx*

      I work in nonprofits, but I still work. I exchange my labor for pay. I don’t feel terribly inclined to give them a rebate on my pay. I think this is a terrible practice. But it’s not a completely uncommon one.

      My response to this, much like my response to being asked to spam my contacts with requests to donate, is “I’m afraid that won’t be possible.” No arguments, no explanations. Just drawing a boundary. I do plenty to support the organizations I work for through my work.

      Some places will lay the pressure on stronger than others but I would advise anyone who asked me not to do it. I find it terribly unethical.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Your response is the same as the common response I received on my LI post. I agree that it feels unethical to mix working relationships with donor relationships as they’re not stewarded in the same way and it feels that being asked it to appease other issues rather than really engage employees in mission investment. Worse is when you don’t feel valued as an employee but the organization has your gift – what would a donor do?

      2. Fikly*

        I have a friend who works for a non-profit who actually tries to get people to donate directly from their paycheck. It’s outrageous.

    2. Potsie*

      I work for a non-profit hospital. They send out emails and letters asking employees to donate, but my boss has never asked me to donate and there doesn’t seem to be any pressure to donate. I don’t donate to them and I don’t know anyone who does.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        I also work for a non-profit that similarly send out emails asking employees to donate (or get others to donate) but I’ve never felt any direct pressure, and I’ve just ignored the solicitations. I do know some of my coworkers donate, but not how much. I think some of this may change (for the better–cultivation of individual donors outside of the office rather than relying on employees for lead generation) as our development team gets more professionalized.

    3. H.C.*

      In my experience it’s fairly common – it not only brings in extra funds but also serves as a proxy at how “committed” the workers are to the NPO’s cause (which other fundraisers can use as a selling point for their pitches). That being said, my nonprofit ex-employer is fairly low-key and low-pressure about the affair – the employee giving team will hold a few giveaway/raffle events throughout the year, table at employee fairs / all-staff events and do a brief presentation at new employee orientations, but I’ve never gotten a hard sell from them or my managers about participating in it.

    4. Sloan Kittering*

      Sadly it’s becoming increasingly common – I’ve encountered it at my last three non profit jobs, and it’s only semi-optional. They want to say they have 100% employee giving for some external reporting, they see their competitors have it, etc. The upside is, in general, they legitimately don’t care how much you give. I give in the $5 range and that seems to be literally fine. I still find it annoying! But $5 is so little I’m not going to make a fuss personally. One job incentivized us, which I appreciated; if we achieved 100% donation, we got an extra day off. In that case, I know for sure managers put in money “in name of so-and-so” who hadn’t gotten around to dropping their $5 in the bucket, and honestly I didn’t mind contributing in that case. Others have just said “hey, pony up,” very persistently. I am always braced for this trend to get worse, a “race to the bottom” like, 100% employee automatic payroll deductions, 100% employee donation for every campaign, etc.

    5. TheOtherLiz*

      This happened at a nonprofit where I worked once – they were trying to use staff as leverage to guilt the board into all giving. Which…. how can you be on a board without giving at least, I don’t know, $10? Why use staff as a guilt trip? I was ignoring it, and finally gave in and gave them a $20 after they announced that 98% of staff had participated – including the unpaid INTERNS. Why did they even ACCEPT money from the interns, who literally donate their time for free? Since there were 50 people on staff, though, the math was clear. I was the only holdout, the 2%, so I gave in, resentfully, but never again, never again.

  174. Commuter*

    How do you organize your email inbox? I use Outlook, and I find myself wondering how I could organize things.

    One of my coworkers sorts every single email into various folders by topic and her folders usually have subfolders. This seems like a lot of work to me but one benefit is that she doesn’t move an email out of her inbox until it’s sorted/the issue is completed so she never misses anything.

    Any other strategies?

    1. Allypopx*

      I do basically what your coworker does. It’s really not much work. I take a little time to set up my folders at the beginning of each year and then just click emails into the right place. That way I don’t lose anything and my inbox is just things that need attention.

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      I like to use the categories and the outlook tasks to basically turn my emails into do-able tasks sorted into coloured categories. I work at a university where they do courses for staff on how to use tools in outlook (and so on) to help organise your workload. I have found these to be very useful.

      Also, I’m quite delete-happy. I don’t generally empty my deleted items so I sort of treat it a bit like an unsorted ‘completed’ folder. I don’t often need to view anything from there again but I know it’s searchable in there if I need it. Therefore, I typically just delete an email once I’ve done/actioned it, unless it’s info I actively need to save somewhere (in which case I save it in the relevant place). I usually keep the number of items in my inbox between 10-30, depending.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I combine that with sorting by flag, so all the emails I hit the flag on are at the top. That way all the stuff I haven’t dealt with yet is right at the top of my inbox every day, even on top of the new emails.

      But yeah, once dealt with, ALL THE FOLDERS. I have around 20 of them, although that is partly due to the fact that I do work in four or five different departments and I need to keep my stuff sorted between them. It’s not that much work. It’s a little bit to set it up, but once it’s set up it’s way more convenient.

    4. Rick Tq*

      I use a number of keyword rules to categorize a lot of info-only messages or from specific people. Our back end systems have a lot of moving parts and resulting status messages when another step has been completed.

      Bigger rule is my Inbox is for messages to *me*, anything sent as a CC: to me goes in a separate folder. I still review everything frequently but that lets me focus on priority tasks too. I also created a button to copy messages to my “Pending” folder for tasks that take more time to complete.

    5. Sloan Kittering*

      I legit tried to start doing this and COULD NOT. I kept having to create new folders for circumstances I hadn’t considered before, and then that folder would have … one item in it, and I couldn’t find what I needed later. Or I had emails that applied to multiple folders and didn’t know where to save them, ended up picking at random and again … couldn’t find things later.

      I have a terrible inbox and I do miss things sometimes, but at least I can always find things because I never delete anything. If it was sent, it’s still in my inbox. (Eventually, when the system forces me to, I have to “archive” but that takes several years in my experience).

  175. Re'lar Fela*

    TL;DR I’m 90 days into a new job and may have to quit soon due to the cost of healthcare. Do I tell my supervisor that’s a possibility now or wait until I have to give notice?

    Background: I started a new job at the end of September and was given a number for my health insurance cost that was high, but doable. I recently finished my 90-day probation period and my benefits kicked in. The cost of health insurance is double what I was originally told and now my paychecks are less than I was making at my old job (I make $7,000 more here than I did at my previous job and the total cost of health insurance for the year is $8,472). I’m trying to get my daughter on my state’s Medicaid, but if she’s denied I’m going to have to look for a new job. Do I talk to my supervisor about this possibility? I won’t be eligible for a merit or cost of living wage for another year and, because of childcare costs, a second job isn’t an option right now. I love my job and don’t want to leave, but I may have to and I HATE that.

    1. OtterB*

      You’ve probably done this, but did you confirm that the deduction that’s being taken for health insurance is correct and is what it will be going forward, not any weird startup amount or something like that?

      1. Re'lar Fela*

        Yep. I double checked with our finance team. The number they gave me was per paycheck, but they never specified (I went back and looked at the paperwork). I guess I assumed it was per month, since that’s how it’s been presented to me in previous positions. My fault for not double checking, but yikes. Not a pleasant discovery!

    2. Re'lar Fela*

      Also, I don’t know if this is relevant, but I’m a single parent so there’s no option to put her on a partner’s insurance or whatever. My daughter has never met her bio-dad and I haven’t asked for any child support or anything, so there’s no way to share the cost.

      1. Marthooh*

        You not asking for child support isn’t the same as him not owing child support. If you need money to care for your child, that’s still a possible source.

      2. Anono-me*

        Please be aware that many states require both bioparents to be doing what they can to support their child before benefits kick in. Applying for any state benefit may cause the state to reach out to your daughter’s bio dad or ask you to provide his information and then reach out to him.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          Check your states requirements for Medicaid.

          My state goes after fathers for non payment of child support if you apply for state aid. Is he listed on the birth certificate? That’s what my state uses to hunt them down.

          Your state may not, but find out before you get surprised.

          1. Re'lar Fela*

            He’s not on the birth certificate and that’s been a huge sticking point regarding applying for aid in the past. I’ve spent my entire career in non-profits, so I could use some help. But not at the risk of letting him back into her life. My state is extremely into the idea of having both parents involved, which is frustrating. I recently learned about a DV exception to the going after fathers first thing, so I’m going to give that a shot.

    3. Ophelia*

      Do you have it in writing what the original estimate was? Because I would push back on that – if they offered you a job with that as a benefit, then changed it, that isn’t cool. But I think it would help to loop your manager in. Have a conversation about it.

    4. Llama Wrangler*

      Unless you get the sense that there is something your boss could do for you (adjust your pay; adjust the cost of your benefits; something else I’m not thinking of??) which it sounds like there’s not, I would wait until you know for sure that your daughter can’t get on the state Medicaid. If you’ve really only worked there for <6 months, you'll probably end up leaving the job off your resume, and I think it's better to not risk your boss pushing you out early once she knows you need to leave.

  176. BradC*

    Can anyone speak with experience on the relative merits and/or employer perception of two different possible art degrees: BA vs BFA (Bachelor of Fine Arts)?
    I hadn’t even heard of a BFA until we started looking at colleges for my art-loving daughter. She’s thinking about a concentration in illustration or animation, possibly.
    Do actual fine-arts employers (animation studios, comics, design studios) care one way or another? Or do they just care about the quality of your work?
    Would “normal” employers hiring for more general office work be confused or thrown off seeing a BFA on a resume?
    Any other thoughts about this, or about helping her make sure she comes out with marketable skills in case her artistic dreams are slow to realize?

    1. Jules the First*

      We hire both BAs and BFAs for our illustrators and animators; what matters most is the quality of your portfolio. We also look for people with dual skillsets – we don’t hire people period if they can’t draw by hand but demonstrated skills in virtual drawing or digital animation is also critical. Even the people we hire to create hand-drawn illustrations and animations work on a digital sketchpad these days (it’s so much faster to composite), so tech or coding exposure is a better indicator than BA vs BFA. I think we have maybe one guy on a team of 40 who still draws analogue (and that’s because we hired him to maintain the archive collection of hand drawn stuff for re-issue). For general office work, the fact that it’s a degree matters more than what kind of degree.

      If your daughter is keen to go into illustration or animation, she should look at the school’s track record of getting graduates into jobs and their alumni network (because that will help her get a job), and take as many internships in the field as she can get her hands on. She also needs to build a high-quality portfolio of work that demonstrates that she can do a breadth of types of illustration work but also deep dive into one or more particularly tricky specialist areas (hair, facial expressions, fabric, fur, water, glass, light, etc). She is unlikely to build a complete and compelling portfolio with just the stuff she does for class – she needs to be drawing and creating personal passion projects as well.

      1. The Engineer*

        I have two family members who did not get accepted into the “program” at their university which would have led to a BFA on the diploma instead of the BA they received. They couldn’t take all the classes since they weren’t in the program. Both make money doing their art/skill anyway. Although from the right school the initials will help.

        As noted above, the ‘doing’ matters more than the initials. Draw, draw, draw. Get feedback and draw some more.

      2. BradC*

        Thanks Jules, and everyone, for your replies. This is all helpful.

        I especially appreciate your detail about a portfolio that highlights specialist work; I’ll pass that along to her.

    2. Autumnheart*

      Nobody will be confused at seeing a BFA on a resume. It’s exactly as legitimate as a BA or a BS.

      Yes, employers hiring for a creative position may indeed prioritize for a BFA. I’m in UX and it is common to see that in the hiring reqs, although *not* having one isn’t a kiss of death. (Btw, I would highly recommend UX [User Experience] as a good, growing, well-paying creative field.)

      Typically, when you’re interviewing for creative positions, your portfolio will be the best proof of your ability. Having a great portfolio and a BA or a BS will not eliminate you in most cases–but it might, if you’re talking about industry leaders like Disney or whatever. But if your portfolio sucks and you don’t have the talent, having a dozen degrees won’t help you. But again…this is what I like about UX. Having a fine arts background is extremely useful in UX, and it is one area where, if you’ve got the eye but just don’t have a distinguishing artistic talent, then you can go a long way in the field.

    3. designbot*

      From a design firm perspective, the portfolio is 90% of what matters. BA vs. BFA matters primarily if/when she applied to grad school, not for employment purposes. She should go to the one that gives her access to the best professors, has the best class offerings, and produces the best student work.

  177. JBTX*

    Computer & technical questions: I work from home regularly and also travel for work sporadically. I connect to my company via a web browser and Citrix. My questions are all related to that.

    Are there any special considerations I need to make in buying a new computer? My PC is really old and I’m looking to replace it. My thought is that I should buy an inexpensive laptop since I simply need a web browser to connect to my company. Most of the personal things I do on a computer are also largely web based.

    Also, some places are easier to work at when I travel than others due to their internet speed. Is there a minimum internet speed I should check for?

    I don’t know if the type of work I do matters, but it’s data heavy analysis–running lots of formulas in very large spreadsheets.

    Thanks!

    1. BradC*

      If the majority of your work is done via Citrix, then the processor speed of your new computer isn’t going to be a big factor; any modern processor is going to be far better than your old PC. And if you’re not playing PC games or anything, then your graphics card is also largely irrelevant.

      In that case I’d focus more on aesthetics (screen, keyboard, etc), but even there you can always connect to a larger computer monitor when at home.

      Unfortunately, it is very hard to predict what kind of remote access you will get while traveling, even if you ask. Best I can suggest is to have a (company expensed) cellular data card (or tether to your phone) when the hotel wifi isn’t up to the task.

      1. JBTX*

        Thanks!!

        Thanks for confirming about the computer. At home I’m going to set up dual monitors and a wireless mouse/keyboard. For travel, i’m thinking an inexpensive 15 in laptop.

        For the internet I was thinking I would just test the speed and if it’s too low, just do the work later. It’s normally a hotel or coffee shop or airport. You’re right, hotels are notoriously bad and sometimes I can barely get email on my phone. I was curious if there was a speed I should test for as it’s a pain to get logged in and then have to shut down because the speed is too slow.

        1. BradC*

          For speed/connection testing, search for the website “speedtest by Ookla”. They also have a downloadable app for your phone or tablet.

          As for how fast is fast enough, I couldn’t say; just do your own testing and keep a list of the tested speed and whether you were able or unable to work. Shouldn’t take long for you to find that magic threshold between possible and intolerable.

  178. CollegeSupervisor*

    Tips for sensitively talking about reliability when there’s a mental illness involved? (For more context, one of our student workers was in the hospital on suicide watch, and assured us she was ready to come back to work multiple times before backing out at the last minute before her scheduled shifts. We didn’t want to make her feel rushed or pressured after such an experience, but we do need to be confident that when she says she’s ready to come back that is true.)

    1. Jdc*

      I’m guessing there’s some anxiety going on with coming back. They intend to then the anxiety kicks in.

      I’d probably word it as “I want you to take all the time you need. I understand coming back to work after such a big medical issue can be scary. How about Wednesday so you have a short week to start off”.

      I have a thing about Wednesday’s. I always negotiate starting new jobs on Wed. There’s so much anxiety, anticipation, stress, information etc that knowing it’s a few days then a break really really helps me. Also not helpful here but for a new job I find that no one has ever been ready to get me going on a Monday morning. They are dealing with emails, fires, etc so I sit around for hours.

  179. Pennalynn Lott*

    I have a meeting invite for next Wednesday from one of the directors in my department, who oversees one specialty, titled “Career Discussion/Opportunities” and it includes my current director (the glassbowl boss who oversees a different specialty). I am 95% sure this means that they want me to move to the other team. And, if so, I’m 100% sure it’s because Glassbowl and I do not get along. At all. That man has disliked me since he hired me, which is all kinds of weird.

    To wit, I passed a major industry certification exam on Monday. I sent him a one-sentence email when I got home. (“I passed the XYZ exam!”). He never responded. At our [reinstated after a fairly long hiatus] monthly team meeting the next day he said that, going forward, we staff should contribute to these meetings by, for instance, talking about any training we’ve taken, special projects that we’re on, any exams we’ve passed, or certifications/licenses we’ve earned. I raised my hand and said, “I passed the XYZ exam on Monday.” Glassbowl Boss turned to the Senior Manager next to him, and said, “You’re up for that next, right? In February?” AS IF I DIDN’T EXIST.

    Fear not, though. I’m taking PTO today and Monday, and at my weekly 1:1 with Glassbowl on Tuesday I’m giving my two weeks’ notice. I start my new job on January 31.

  180. Phantom of the Opera*

    I am learning to code. How do I find out what’s projects I need to make to get a job?

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Code in which language? What a particular language is used for can give a lot of insight here.

      HTML/CSS/JavaScript? Webpage, probably with e-commerce or interactive site (think forum or wiki).

      Other languages are really good for crunching data and linking it together (think GIS or geomatics).

      One thing you will learn quickly when you ask for help in computer forums: specific questions get specific answers. Non-specific questions get ignored. The more detail you provide up front, the better.

    2. Leopard*

      I would search for job postings for the jobs/companies that interest you and see what they’re looking for.

  181. Rin*

    I have one of those bad bosses that won’t change. He is a narcissist, doesn’t respect me, and generally treats me poorly by literally making me do my coworkers’ jobs while they get to sit there and do nothing. No I am not exaggerating. I am the go to person in my office and frankly I’m sick of it. I’m searching for another job asap. Yet again today my boss told another coworker that I can do her project quotes for her. Why? All because she had a few incorrect prices. Instead of telling the coworker where to view the correct price he took away the project and gave it to me to do instead. When I question the decision politely my boss lies and says that the Grandboss specifically wanted me to do it instead. I know this is a lie because I overheard my boss “volunteering” me for it.

    I am angry all the time about the utter unfairness of it all. I was refused a raise, being told “We don’t give raises for more work.” and they will not give me a proper title either. They keep wanting more and more and yet give nothing back.

    How can I stop letting this get to me emotionally? How can I detach? I cannot just quit without someone else lined up.

    1. LQ*

      Can you focus on the resume building part of it? I had a little while where I was really angry about how I was being dumped on and I just started adding things to my resume basically weekly. I obviously had to cut a lot, when I went to use it, but it was really helpful to just go. That’s great, another line on my resume each time.

  182. Abby*

    I just got a job offer!! What would you do for negotiating?
    Offer is 60k (with an added bonus, probably $1-2k) with 18.5 paid days off (including sick). Work From Home 1-2 days a week, and a very flexible work schedule.
    I currently make ~$62k and have 20 paid days off, and 6 sick days, but very strict butt in seat 8-4:30 pm schedule. I have another final interview on Monday that I’m waiting for.

    How much more would you negotiate for for this job offer? Is asking for 70k too much? I plan on telling them I currently have 26 days off, and would love for them to come up a little.

    1. littlelizard*

      I don’t think I’d try to negotiate the salary up that high, but definitely mention the decrease in days off. That can get annoying quickly.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you being paid market rate right now?

      I wouldn’t ask for 16% more personally, probably half that. If you’re paid market value for your position of course. I would say it’s to make up for the loss in time off or ask if they could match your current PTO even.

      But again if you’re on the lower end of the pay spectrum for your job, you should play on the experience you bring to try to get closer to the 16% you’re originally thinking about. It really is not enough information to tell you if it’s too much or not!

    3. Jdc*

      Call me crazy but I’d ask for 72 and expect them too and at 67 or something. I feel like 70 will land you at 65. I do a lot of negotiating though and am kind of a hard butt so take that into account.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^Concur. Depends also on the market – is 60 a low-ish offer for this position or already towards the high end? – but I would bring up the higher number of PTO days you have now and essentially imply that this is the tradeoff you are willing to make – more money to compensate for the fact that you are losing a significant number of days off.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        See, everywhere I have done salary negotiations, it would depend on the actual range if 72 was even within in. But most do not have such a wide gap, if anyone came in 12k above offering, we’d just stay firm at 60, take it or leave it, we’ll move to the next person.

        Again it depends on market rate though. Negotiating to hard can backfire if it’s not the right industry/position.

        1. Abby*

          Thanks for these replies! So currently I am working in wealth management, this job is in mortgage. I used to work in mortgage and my ending salary was $55k but I realized it was really low for my position (trader). This new job is not for a trader position, but I’m considered pretty experienced especially for my age. I don’t think they’re interviewing anyone else and I know they desperately need the help.
          I am probably going to wait until Monday for the other company and see where I’m at!

  183. RRRRRRRRRRRRR*

    I’m so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of “Homework” required to move forward with interviews. Right now, I have TWO WEEKS of free work assignments given to my by the companies who have requested to move forward after I applied. None of them consider even a per diem for our time.

    I’ve been a designer for over 20 years, and while requests for free work used to happen (which we all generally laughed at) now they have become PART of the job process. In fact, I’m interviewing with 7 companies right now, each one requiring me to complete complex and time-consuming assignments before they will even consider moving me on to the next stage of interviews.

    As I will only ever land up at one job, that means that 6 of these assignment are a complete waste of time. In fact, at this point in all of the discussions I don’t even know if I would like to work for any of these companies, and as I haven’t yet even spoken with the hiring managers, I have no sense of how I would like to move forward.

    I’m completely stressed out and find these deadlines and requests to be completely absurd. Maybe I’m too old. But if I want a job, apparently this is what I have to do.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It typically was:
      Look at your portfolio/samples > setup interview
      Interview #1 > Asked to do a skills test or complete a project (of about an hour’s work)
      Interview #2 > Meet higher-ups, maybe show some comps for a project.

      I personally wouldn’t do any project work until after an in-person interview. Like, there is no way I’d layout a whole magazine or anything for them. I’d think they’re trying to get free work.

      But it sounds like HR is asking for this? Before they even interview you? Yeah no.

  184. Jules the First*

    Man today was rough. I arrived to a note from a Partner asking me to take his 9.30 coaching meeting with one of his skip reports as “I think she’d get more out of having this career conversation with a woman”. Well gee, thanks for thinking of me, but is there really no woman in your business unit who could do it? Apparently not. So I got to start my day by giving the “no one will give you the career of your dreams unless you take responsibility for making it happen so buck up and actualise your damn dreams” speech. And while giving it, I realised that I’m now older than the woman who gave me that speech was. Then I went straight into a meeting to talk about options for a new training program that I thought had a flexible timeline and turns out they want to commission it and run the first session in early Feb. Straight from that to a scheduled 1:1 with a team member at which he resigned (I knew he was struggling, but hoped I’d caught it soon enough) then on to a strategy meeting with my grandboss where I had to ask him to raise some gnarly problems with the CEO. Then a business lunch, a project meeting, and two annual performance reviews for my team, in which reviewee 1 argued with her feedback and reviewee 2 cried. My day wrapped up with the news that the project pitch that ruined my Christmas was successful and one of our senior partners wanted to personally thank me for dragging it kicking and screaming over the line. Oof. I am emotionally shattered and my inbox is a mess because I’ve not touched it all day. Can it be the weekend already please?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yes, it absolutely can be the weekend. Change into comfy clothes, curl up on the couch, and watch whatever trashy show you want.

  185. Alpaca Clinician*

    Hello – long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I have a question about workplace norms/weird gifts received from supervisors.

    I am in academia (so really, all “workplace norms” stuff goes right out the window…), finishing up my PhD, and currently working in a term faculty position that may turn into a permanent one once my thesis is completed. My graduate supervisor is still my supervisor for my thesis, but in terms of other job responsibilities we are now at the same level – e.g. we are both faculty members, we both have the same responsibilities in the clinic associated with our university, etc. So we are both trying to figure out how to navigate this weird in-between space between supervisor/grad student and former supervisor/finished grad student.

    95% of the time everything is fine, and I wouldn’t really be posting anything except I’m confused and a bit weirded out. In our department, historically the faculty clinicians would get smallish Christmas gifts for the grad students/house officers working in the clinic, with no expectation of gifts flowing upward. Since moving to more of a clinician role I no longer expect gifts. My supervisor, though, included me with the house officers for the gift exchange this year, in and of itself not a terrible thing. However, all of us received clothing as gifts: moderately expensive (I would estimate) fleece jackets.

    This isn’t normal, right? I would never in a hundred years think to buy clothing as a gift for a co-worker, unless we were really good friends – and probably not even then. Add to this the fact that we are friendly at work but definitely not friends outside of work, and I feel like this behaviour isn’t normal even for the aquarium of weirdness that academia is.

    Side note: I said thank you, we have not discussed it further, and the jacket in question is being donated to a local charity because it is completely the wrong size. There’s no ongoing weirdness due to this incident – I have come to expect random outbursts of social awkwardness from him over the last 5 years – I just felt I needed to consult an outside source to validate the strangeness of the whole situation.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Plus Ultra*

      Academic here. While you may see yourself as a colleague or equal co-worker, it’s very likely your thesis advisor sees you as a student and will so until you finish the PhD. And really, in academia, if you’re dissertating and working, you’re still a student. It’s not weird. You may not like it, but that’s the most likely reason you received a gift. Donating it is fine.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Jackets like you’ve described are pretty normal gifts, even when it comes to a supervisor in this sense. Though it’s awkward that it was sized wrong of course.

      My mind just went to “Team jackets” when you said that’s what they purchased for you. Was it with the school logo at least? That would make the most sense…

      Lots of sales during the holidays, so it may be regularly on the expensive side but I bet they got a BOGO or something similar. A friend got her huge family sweaters and came in at about $20 each with the sale she had found.

      1. Alpaca Clinician*

        They weren’t team jackets – although that would have been nice – more like high-pile fleece (one house officer mentioned the word “poodle” to describe hers, out of earshot of the supervisor of course). I’m guessing some sort of holiday sale made them affordable to buy for 4-5 people.

        Other context I forgot to add initially – this same person 2 years ago bought me a flannel housecoat/robe and another house officer flannel pyjamas for Christmas, so maybe that history is what is weirding me out so much about the gifts this year, despite being relatively tame in comparison?

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          PAJAMAS THO? Is this person a grandmother, I’m trying not to be rude but omg when you doubled down with the PJs and robe I’m now imagining my grandmother as your supervisor. Now yeah, that’s weird AF.

          The jackets I can get by, it sounds like she’s got some uh…old fashioned tastes in apparel but no to jammies and robes.

  186. lady parts*

    Unexpected challenge of the week: I had a midafternoon emergency room visit related to abnormal bleeding (called doctor, doctor recommended ER), which required dashing out right before a meeting of my entire department. A coworker/friend insisted on coming with me, which was great, albeit a little embarrassing, but meant that by the time she got back, the person I’d told had told my boss, his boss, plus half my coworkers saw me run away. Turns out it’s very difficult to allay concern about a medical issue that you 100 percent do *not* want to share any specifics about.

      1. lady parts*

        The one who came with me? Apparently I looked like a ghost and like I might pass out on the elevator (which…I felt like, too). I am really grateful for her. The one who spread the news wider than I would have liked–yeah, not ideal. But a) apparently I looked a lot worse than I realized and b) there was genuine and widespread concern since I literally got the call back from my dr and disappeared on my way into a meeting with my entire team so it was kind of public from the get-go. (I did not tell anyone except the person who came with me what was specifically going on, so the concern was not inappropriate, just figuring out how to address it without going way TMI.)

        1. Jdc*

          You have the right mind set at least. As much as there is so much we don’t want to share with our coworkers at the end of the day they see us all day so they actually would notice something off pretty quick. Just glad someone helped and you got into the Er. Feel better soon.

          1. valentine*

            I would find this kind of thing jarring. Proceed as though they are simply concerned and, if they ask, say you’re fine/no worries.

            The person who went with you is a gem. You could have fainted and she would’ve been able to speak for you, versus random people patting you down for your ID/phone.

  187. Great Beyond*

    Coworker told my boss that we had a meeting. I went. Coworker claimed he was busy, but when I went back for something, he was talking and goofing around. He saw me and came over, but wtf?

      1. Great Beyond*

        It’s just embarrassing because my coworkers were looking at us. He played it off like it was a joke. I receive no support. I feel like I’m being set up to fail.

        1. Ain't Miss Behavin'*

          I guess I don’t understand what happened. Your coworker told your boss that you and your boss had a meeting, and you went? Or your coworker told your boss that you and your coworker had a meeting, and you went but your coworker stayed behind and goofed around?

          How does either of those situations reflect badly on you? It sounds to me like your coworker is just an ass.

          1. Great Beyond*

            The second situation. We had a meeting and he didn’t show. He told me he was on his way, but wasn’t. I told others he was on his way. He didnt show until I went back for something.

            He is an arse but he has seniority and the boss and everyone love him. He’s like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He’s manipulative and gets away with it. It’s not fair.

  188. Jobseeker*

    I have a question for everyone. I recently applied for a CSR position that stated they were looking for people with customer service experience. I got a nasty rejection letter from the hiring manager that stated that my 7 years of retail experience does not qualify for CSR and I should never apply ever again. I don’t understand this statement. Can someone help me?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So retail experience often isn’t viewed as CSR material if you’re looking to launch into an office environment. I come from years of rejecting them when I’m looking for my CSR’s with experience. So it will be hard to break into that section BUT huge BUT, this person who said that to you is T-R-A-S-H. I said it, they’re awful and shouldn’t ever be allowed to hire, let alone send rejection notices.

      THAT IS NOT a normal response and EF that place, you didn’t want any of their apples…I hear they have little green worms.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My outburst due to indignance and rage I feel over hearing how you were treated aside.

      Let me explain why retail isn’t viewed as experience in this situation, at least on my level, I’m not sure what you’re applying for exactly of course but I get the idea that it’s more in the scope of what I have hired before [company with a pretty extensive consistent client base, selling very specific customized stuffs] . Walk in or casual customers at point of sale are typically different than long term clients and busy accounts. You don’t use as much technology [I had tried originally to spring people from the retail world when I was much more patient and less overworked, with more time to train and such. And I have had a horrid time trying to teach general office procedures and computers to folks, who swear they’re tech savvy and great with that kind of thing] So many have been burned that way and just auto reject retail experience. Unless it’s an entry level position where experience is not required.

      Depending on the job, it may also call for a lot of independent judgement that retail doesn’t allow you to use. I only recently learned this until I saw some postings for retail positions that were egregious that literally said “You will not be exercising independent judgement of any kind, you will be going by scripts and procedures listed only.”

      I need my CSR’s to always be able to exercise judgement on their own and know when to escalate and when it’s within their [limited but there is some!] authority. We don’t set it up so that everything has to be ran up the chain if it deviates here and there kind of thing. We don’t need a manager to override everything.

      All this justification aside, I’m still enraged you were treated poorly. All they had to do was say that they’re not going forward. Your resume is not the worst they’ve seen. They need to grow the heck up and learn some GD manners.

    3. ForOneDollar*

      It beggars belief that a rejection letter would tell you to never apply again or even be that specific about your experience.

  189. Rudolph's Shiny New Year*

    Has anyone had a job offer (written / firm) cancelled after you’d put notice (no fault of your own)? Also, were you able to collect unemployment if you quit your old job because of the offer that ultimately fell through?

    I passed background checks, etc, and was given a firm offer which then kept postponing the start date for weeks until they finally decided not to add the position afterall. : (

    Advice? Suggestions?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve heard of this happening and it freaks me the heck out. I would reach out to your local Employment Securities Department and ask them directly about this situation. Because it’s going to really matter about your state laws unfortunately. Other people’s stories won’t be specific to your state/region and unemployment drastically changes depending on your state requirements.

      Usually if you lose a job at no fault of your own, you’re eligible. But since you never started, that’s a huge question of if they’d consider it in my mind and knowledge of a couple states standards.

      1. Rudolph's Shiny New Year*

        Thank you, and yes. I’m completely, completely spinning out about this.

        I’m actually terrified that I won’t even get unemployment because I quit Job #1 to accept Faux Job.

        Thanks TM, BL.

        1. Jdc*

          Oh gosh I’d be freaking out. I’m so sorry. I don’t know the answer but call the unemployment office on Monday and ask. That’s total Bs.

    2. Goose Lavel*

      Happened to a buddy of mine who moved across country, bought a house, set up his kid up in school. On his 1st day of work at new job, was pulled into a meeting room and told his job was no longer available.

      Took him awhile to recover.

      1. Rudolph's Shiny New Year**

        I can’t even begin to imagine. I hope that he and his family have made it through the other side of that nightmare.

        I really think that people should be able to sue companies for lost wages and fraud when they do this. Especially for people like your friend who have moved their entire lives cross country. It’s beyond my comprehension why companies do this.

        1. Goose Lavel*

          Took him 3 years to recover. They stayed at the new location, primarily because they moved from the SF Bay area and could not afford to relocate back.
          He tends to beat himself up about it, wondering what he could have done to see this coming. But all signs were good and they sent him funds to help relocate.
          Shows you how nothing is certain.

  190. Rudolph's Shiny New Year*

    Also, a question to Alison: what is the very best username you’ve see on the forums?

  191. Jdc*

    Job search has begun. It’s not that there are jobs I’d rather not do but jobs i cannot do. It’s a very blue collar area and most require skills I don’t have even if I wanted to. I’m not at all above getting my hands dirty and frankly for a part time job wouldn’t mind something a little physical after spending decades behind a desk. Since it’s somewhat short term I think that would be great to be moving around and not getting fat at a desk.

    I had to share though because I did see a listing for a bomb disarming position. Can’t say I ever expected to see that in writing. I’ll have to keep sharing the wacky jobs i find here. Hehe

  192. Sarah-tonin*

    hi! how much time do you all spend prepping for interviews? i have an interview early next week for a part-time academic librarian position, and i don’t have any experience with academic libraries, so i’m trying to read up on this but also learn about some of the academic stuff, and i feel like i’m spending too much time on it? i’m also worried i’m going to forget something during the interview, so i’m going over my notes a lot (do any of you take/type notes? how long are they?). i also have to prepare a short presentation, which is helping me learn the library.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Well, back up—is it public or technical service? Is it evening reference? Tell us more about the job.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        whoops, sorry! I should have responded sooner and also been more specific.

        it’s for a part-time instructional librarian position at an academic library. I do have teaching experience thanks to one of my jobs now (both in public libraries). I teach tech classes on specific things (ie: computer basics, google docs, skype). so it’s not like I’m going in there totally blind, but I don’t know much about academic libraries and am going to do the best I can (I mean, they’ve sen my resume and know I’ve never worked in an academic library, but I graduated from there which I’m thinking might have something to do with it).

        I spent most of my prep time making the presentation, and I did brush up on the different databases and services they offer as best I could (thanks to the presentation I have to do, although I didn’t have as much time to prep for this as I would have liked).

        the interview is in 4 hours, but I think this is still good to know, going forward. :)

  193. Inky*

    Is it rude to send LinkedIn messages to current contacts, mostly people I know or have met? How about to send networking/informational emails to people I’ve met in person or have already emailed back and forth with–people on friendly terms already–on the weekend? I’m not thinking of cold-messaging anyone, just returning or generating network-y conversations with current contacts.

    It feels somewhere between rude and off to me, but I’m also new to this kind of thing. I don’t want people to feel distracted from their weekend by my message or pressured in any way. I also don’t use any notifications on my phone–I will see your email or app message when I check it, never because it popped up on my phone–so I may view them as more intrusive than others.

  194. Its5oclocksomewhere*

    I’m in a very bad environment/ toxic situation. It’s very negative, people show up drunk, you have to light a fire to get anyone to do anything, boss doesn’t care/turns a blind eye, etc. How do I stay (somewhat) sane until I can get out?

  195. Retail not Retail*

    Storm day question – a southern thunder floodin snownado is bearing down and the ETA for my area is 6-8am and work starts at 7!

    We will be indoors for work bc you can’t work outside in this nonsense. Our indoor site is not storm safe but there are safe places on grounds. It’s just getting there! I don’t want to be late but I don’t want to drive in crazy weather.

    1. Llellayena*

      “I’m not driving in until the roads are safe. See you sometime around 10am.” If you’re in a job that requires coverage for safety/health reasons (dispatcher, hospital, nuclear plant safety operator…), it sucks but I’d actually try to beat the snow in. Assuming you can get in the building early. Napping in a corner until 7am is better than driving in blizzard conditions. (Please note: my commute involves feet, not wheels, so all suggestions are theoretical)

      1. Retail not Retail*

        I’ve called in for weather before at my grocery store job. I rode a bike and everyone knew it and I called after it started sticking and said well if i walk in the ditches I can swing it. They said no because unlike snow panic days, actual snow days are dead.

        This is hourly work but I could probably ask my manager next week to apply personal hours if I end up late. Going in early is an option – our office and shop are unsafe in a storm but the time clock building is moderately safer. We also have genuine tornado shelters if those sirens kick off.

        The snow is an exaggeration alas it is 65 and super windy and yes january so batten down those hatches.

        1. valentine*

          Is there even work that you can do when you’re sheltering in an area you don’t work in (because you work outdoors)? If you’re the person where no one wanted to be the first to stop working (in trees?!) during lightning, this is a wildly reckless place that needs to either come up with safe indoor jobs for literal rainy days or allow you to work different hours when it’s safe to be out there.

  196. Teacher to be*

    I’m about to apply to teacher’s college, and I’m trying to organize my admission essay. The questions aren’t super complicated (why do you want to be a teacher, what kind of a teacher do you want to be, etc) but I’ve never done one before so I don’t know what I should emphasize. Are there any good resources I could look at? I’m hyper-aware of plagiarism so I’m not looking for something to copy. I just want to know what sort of things I should focus on in my essay. Somehow a simple question is really stressing me out! I guess because I want it so much….

    1. Auntie Social*

      Don’t forget to include a story from your own past about a teacher who really made you think, or was especially kind, etc. Everyone has a teacher they remember who makes them smile when they think of her. (My DIL teaches elementary science and always makes stinky, showy bombs the first day of school as a welcome back! She now has to promise ‘no rotten egg smells just before lunch’ :( principal nauseated)

  197. Stunned in Mid Wilshire*

    STUNNED. I am at my office, sitting at my desk, feeling numb. I asked my employer for 13 years for a raise. Before I could finish, he said no and he added I can leave. I had to stop the tears. Instead of crying, I said it is extremely hurtful to tell me I can leave a company I have been loyal to for 13 years. I “had” no intention of leaving. He then said he pays me “too much” and even gives me health insurance which he “doesn’t” have to do. WOW. He says he likes having here and appreciates my loyalty but if I will be “frustrated” then I should go. Still, in a state of disbelief by his responses, I said that as the cost of living increases (Los Angeles area) I need to adjust my income to feel secure. He said that is not his problem. He is the CEO of a small company with two employees. I am the employee that opens and closes the company every day for the past 13 years. I have never taken a sick day because we service about 50 clients. Today, I learned I am disposable and free to go because I would like a raise.

    1. Stunned in Mid Wilshire*

      I will add that he resents how much I earn and that he pays for my health insurance. I didn’t even get to share the amount I would like and other ideas I have for the company. I was shut down from the start. Again, I am stunned!

      1. valentine*

        You are a living saint. No sick days because clients. I hope it’s the kind of place where they’re safe to say they miss you.

        Any chance he lashed out because he’s ashamed to have treated you shambolically for 13 years (should’ve worshiped you sooner) and will come around after he calms down?

    2. nep*

      Oh my goodness. I am so sorry. That must have felt like a body blow. Wow.
      Sounds like you kept your cool well enough to speak your mind–quite a feat in such a moment. Good for you.
      I’ll look forward to hearing how things go, if you care to keep us posted.
      Wishing you all the best.

    3. My Brain Is Exploding*

      This is just terrible. At least you know where you stand. I’m so sorry your boss is a jerk. I assume you are now going to job hunt and wish you the best of luck!! Hugs if you want them!

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      That’s terrible. And it’s also a sign to you that you need to regard him, and his company, with the exact same attitude. In a way, it’s good that you know how little he actually cares about you. It’s just terrible to learn.

      This is a shock. But once it sinks in, I think you should look around the job market. And if you get sick, even a cold – feel free to take a sick day.

      1. Auntie Social*

        He would have to replace you with two people, which he doesn’t realize. I doubt if he knows everything you do.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          Probably some relative needs a job.

          He can pay them chump change, and the person feels grateful for being employed.

          I have bosses like OP’s. They don’t care.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I am sorry but companies are rarely loyal back. They’re like the cheating boyfriend who claims its your fault they cheated.
      Please start job searching. You deserve better.

    6. StellaBella*

      I am so sorry. I hope you can find a better gig elsewhere, soon. And once you do, I hope he realises how valuable you were. Jees. This is such bad management, and rude too.

  198. nep*

    I’ve got my own response(s) to this, but I’m interested in what anyone here thinks.
    What does it say about me that I am put off by part of a supervisor’s email announcing the visit of the big boss / a regional CEO. She wrote something like: ‘So everybody make sure to be on your A-game!’
    I cringed. (I don’t walk in the door without my A-game.)
    The fact that that line bugged me is a me problem, yeah?

    1. Stunned in Mid Wilshire*

      Nep, please try to not allow this to bother you. It is just a saying. It was not personal. She is probably nervous and projected her feelings to the team. Just do what you usually do.

      1. nep*

        Thanks. I get that it’s a common saying. I didn’t take it personally as much as I just thought it was condescending (to all recipients) on the part of the supervisor.
        It’s not something I let bother me for a long time or anything. I just like to check in here sometimes, as I often have trouble gauging whether I’m reacting in a way that highlights an issue in me that I’ve got to address.
        Appreciate your feedback.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I can see why you feel that way, but I do think you’re taking it a bit harshly. Some people tend to be a bit more relaxed at work, even if they’re still performing perfectly up to par, and it’s good for the reminder to be on their best behavior when the big boss is there.

    3. Matilda*

      At my job, we tend to goof around a fair bit, especially during down time. Everyone is perfectly professional, but the vibe can be pretty relaxed. But then every few weeks, we work in the prescence of politicians or large company CEOs, and we all scale back the jokes and chatter massively. Perhaps your supervisor is just thinking along those lines, basically a request to be a bit more formal than normal. I don’t think it has to imply anything about people’s general work performance or effort.

    4. Only human after all*

      Yes, it’s a you problem. It’s a common saying and a reasonable thing to ask.

      And if you genuinely never go to work without being on your A-game, you are an immortal goddess. So just assume she was addressing the rest of us mere mortals.

  199. LGC*

    My (non-binary) friend “Charlie” asked our group to read a cover letter they were writing, and I (cis male) volunteered because I compulsively read AAM and I’m willing to give a helping hand. I read it, and in the introduction, they led off with stating that they were non-binary.

    My first reaction was that they shouldn’t mention their non-binary identity in the cover letter, but my second thought was that it might actually be an asset in this case. Charlie’s name is generally heavily gendered, and the job they’re applying to is a place where the general gender association of their name might not work well. Charlie also lives in a state where they legally can’t be discriminated against for gender identity, and in a generally progressive area. I eventually settled on offering the advice that while I had some reservations about leading with identity in most cases, I was actually unsure what the right answer was since I have zero personal experience with this specific situation. And I could see merits to clarifying their gender identity in this case.

    So – I’m just wondering, was this a good response? Or did I miss the mark? I feel like in general, I’d be cautious with mentioning my identity in protected classes unless it’s directly relevant to the position. But on the other hand, as I mentioned to Charlie, I have zero experience with getting jobs while being non-binary, and I’m pretty sure I’ll never directly have that experience. (I mean, who knows, but I don’t think that’s in the cards for me.)

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yeah, as soon as you mentioned putting it in the first line of the cover letter, I winced.

      My perspective — and I am not Speaker For All NBs — is that it’s something you might put near but not at the end of the cover letter, if it does benefit from clarification as you described. In other words, get it in there (maybe) but have it as neither the lead-in nor the final line.

      I do think it was good, though, that you acknowledged that this isn’t something you’ve got firsthand experience with.

      1. LGC*

        I didn’t even think about that! Like, that sounds reasonable that you’d demote the importance while keeping it – I know when I read it I kind of focused on their gender identity and less on their other assets in the letter since it was front and center. And although it’s not right, if I did that I’m probably not going to be the only person that does.

    2. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Cis female here so clearly not the best person to be commenting on this sort of thing.

      I agree with Countess Boochie Flagrante that it can and should be included, just not in the first line. My personal thoughts are that a cover letter is for an applicant to state why they want to work for the company, why they think company & applicant would be a good fit for each other, and relevant knowledge/skills/work experience that make applicant qualified for the job. Gender shouldn’t have any bearing and isn’t related to how good of a fit someone is for a position.

      If you and Charlie can’t find a good place in the body of the letter to mention they are non-binary, maybe they can just sign off as:

      Sincerely,
      Charlie (they/them/theirs)

      1. LGC*

        Thanks.

        Although, while I agree that gender (or identity in general) shouldn’t have any bearing in most instances…in some cases, it might. I was a little bit vague about this, but the role they’re applying to work in is pretty sensitive.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I still wouldn’t lead with it, personally – your first sentence should be why you are excited about this job and why you think you’d be great at it. Unless being NB does that, I wouldn’t use my opening line that way.

    3. Fikly*

      So…just because you cannot legally be discrimminated against for something, does not prevent it from happening. First of all, you have to proove it (incredibly difficult). Second of all, there are countless studies showing that unconscious bias is incredibly common and it will affect who gets interviews, based on otherwise identical resumes, never mind who gets hired.

      In the end, it’s Charlie’s choice. It’s a big risk. If they are comfortable taking that risk, then they should go for it. But they should make an informed decision.

      1. AnonNon*

        Agreed. My company actually began mandatory Unconscious Bias training a few years ago. Does it still happen? Absolutely.

        I remember reading a story somewhere about a guy who submitted two identical resumes, only one had the name “Joe” and the other had “Jose.”

        “Joe” got an interview, “Jose” did not.

        1. valentine*

          “Joe” got an interview, “Jose” did not.
          Yep. And “Mr. Kim Surname” was successful.

          If you’re saying it’s a female-dominated field and they would hesitate to hire a man, being nonbinary isn’t (and shouldn’t) help. Being outside the binary where the usual recipient of bias is on the losing end still puts you in a less-than category, even if everyone who met Charlie were to consider them “an honorary woman/one of the girls/a perfectly appropriate receiver of ‘hey, ladies'” or whatever BS they’ve certainly got going on.

          If gender doesn’t have anything to do with the actual job, if Charlie isn’t saying “Being nonbinary myself, I have a particular insight into helping our clients,” and possibly even if they are, no mention or mention only in the signature, if they’re willing to have their materials tossed because of it.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This. This. This.

        You don’t put anything in your preliminary paperwork that puts these things on display due to the bias that exists, both subconsciously and deliberate.

        All they have to do is say they had other strong candidates and they went with whom they thought were their strongest ones that could do the job. You don’t have to interview anyone who says they’re capable of the job, so it’s easy to toss resumes for any reason you really want to. “this one doesn’t excite me.” “why’s that?” “IDK just doesn’t. Next.” You have to prove discrimination and it’s hard AF when you work there, let alone when you are simply applying.

    4. Shadowbelle*

      In a cover letter? You mean, the first thing Charlie is telling potential employers is that they are non-binary?

      No, no, no. And no. Did I mention, no?

      Does being non-binary affect Charlie’s ability to do a job? Does Charlie think being non-binary should have a positive or negative impact on whether they get the job? If it isn’t germane to the job, don’t get into it until it arises naturally as a subject. It doesn’t matter, and it shouldn’t matter. It should not be mentioned until and unless necessary (as in, filling out a form that requires one to specify gender, or being introduced to people where the introducer is going to say, “Here’s our new employee Charlie. They will be working on the gilded teapots project.”

      As a hiring manager, I would look askance on anyone who mentioned in a cover letter that they were non-binary, that they had acid reflux, that their mom had red hair, that their firstborn child had been eaten by wolves, or anything else not related to their ability to do the job. And as the first sentence? Good grief, no.

      Two exceptions, because in these situations, it actually would matter:
      1. If Charlie were applying to an organization that might not hire them or where they would be unhappy if the culture wasn’t accepting (some religious organizations, for example), I’d put it in a P.S. on the letter, as “Although I feel I’m a good fit for this position and could make significant contributions to Happy Temple, you should know that I am non-binary. I don’t know how that would fit with the overall culture at Happy Temple.” To save wasting people’s time.
      2. If Charlie were applying for a position at the LGBTQx including Non-Binary Terrific Teapot Corporation. And I’d still put it in a P.S. “As a non-binary person, I feel I would be an especially good fit at LINBTT Corp.”

  200. Anonymongoose dog*

    Thanks for your support last week. Earl Grey made it back to work this week and seems like their usual self and energy level, so I’m hoping their illness was temporary and not terminal.

    My boss had an urgent dumpster fire come up this week, so I didn’t get a chance to talk to her about it yet, but I’m hopeful we might not need a longer-term backup plan.

  201. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    It’s the beginning of tax season and daily overtime for the next few months… and now is when I start working on my next tier of securities licenses. Because apparently I really enjoy not having any time where I’m not up to my eyebrows in the stock market, I guess?

    The series 9 seems like it won’t be too difficult, but my boss has been giving me lots of ominous “jokey” warnings about how the series 10 is going to eat me alive.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      And an update to this: my boss just announced that my overtime today and any overtime I want to work next weekend will be paid at double time. I’m torn between “bruh, I’m already working extra, I need my study time!” and “shower that sweet sweet double pay on me!”

  202. Scientist (not mad, just disappointed)*

    This week I got formally reprimanded for joking to a white man that he said something racist.

    My boss called me into her office the other day and said that someone in another department said I accused him of racism. I had no idea what she was talking about at first, but then remembered that the week of Christmas this person had come down to our office to pick up some reports. (Our department writes reports that his then uses for the workday.) The person asked if a client was black, which he assumed based on her name. (Race is relevant to our reports – we work in public health.) There was one other person in the office at the time. I jokingly said “well that’s racist!” then promptly forgot about it. Apparently he thought I was accusing him of being racist for asking her race and went straight to my boss. She told me she had been sure it was just a flippant remark but if I have any real concerns to come straight to her. I thought that was the end of it, but the next day I found a formal reprimand in my email that cited “inappropriate behavior.” I was shocked. I entered my version of events into the section for my comments and signed it. There are no real repercussions but I have so many questions. Was this person, who I like, trying to get ahead of an accusation or offended at the insinuation? Why didn’t he just ask what I meant right there? Would I still have gotten the reprimand if I had doubled down and insisted assuming someone’s race based on their name is racist? (It arguably is tbh. And, I’m white.) What kind of workplace have I gotten myself into? I’ve only been working here since April but I love the work. I’m so disappointed and confused.

    1. London Calling*

      Your colleague thought he was being accused of being racist. That could be a career ender or at least have negative impact so he got his retaliation in first. What that says about your workplace I don’t know but it does say to me you have to tread a bit warily around him until you know him better. He might be thin skinned, he might have been having a bad day, he might have genuinely thought you were accusing him and have been deeply aggrieved. FWIW it doesn’t sound to me like a very relaxed place to work if they issue a formal reprimand without hearing both sides; because now you’re going to be hyper-vigilant about everything you say around anybody.

      1. Amairch*

        The formal reprimand actually concerns me quite a bit. Deliberately false reports aside (which this wasn’t, since OP never attempted to report it to anyone), this could easily have a chilling effect on people wanting to make reports in good faith but who don’t have rock-solid proof. I can easily see this getting disseminated through the rumour mill as “OP said Bob was being racist, and Bob complained to her manager, and OP got reprimanded!”

        Again, Bob has every right to report this to cover his own bases. He doesn’t want a record of racism when he was asking a legitimate work question (and assuming someone’s race based on their name is very common. Names are associated with ethnicities. Sure, in this globalized world there may be some differences, but that’s why he was fact checking.)

        And the manager should have talked to OP about how inappropriate “jokes” like that are. (I like PT’s explanation below about why something like that isn’t really an appropriate joke).

        But a formal reprimand is an overreaction that is more likely to make people hesitate to report real instances of racism. And now even OP has to worry about their credibility if they ever want to report a legitimate instance. I think it should have stopped at the conversation with the manager.

        1. valentine*

          He doesn’t want a record of racism
          I agree, because people don’t care that they’re racist. They care only that no one says so. What he said is racist.

          when he was asking a legitimate work question
          Was he? The other week, someone here said simply mentioning race (whether a colleague was the Black person of a pair) was racist, when it isn’t and it made sense there because they were clarifying without disparaging.

          assuming someone’s race based on their name is very common
          Sure. ‘Cause racism is global SOP.

    2. PT*

      I understand that no harm was meant with the comment but in my view, raising an accusation- even jokingly- of racism when someone is talking factually about race in a context relevant to work is innappropriate. Probably not so serious to deserve a formal reprimand, but nevertheless not ideal in a work setting.

      I’ve heard jokes like this made at work, and they make me uncomfortable because if white people jokingly make accusations of racism when there clearly was no racism, the butt of the joke appears to be people who do make real accusations for good reason. And they are always made only among white people, as though it’s an in-joke that ‘oh, look out, we (white people) all need to be careful cos the PC brigade will accuse us of racism’.
      Otherwise, the joke is merely that race exists and mentioning race is racist?
      Anyway. You didn’t intend that, I’m sure, and it seems quite a formal route to take. I would agree with the comment above that the person is covering their bases because an accusation of racism is serious, so wouldn’t ruminate on it too much, but be mindful that jokes and flippancy around racism accusations is not ideal, and maybe something to learn from as the old addage goes.

    3. Fikly*

      Yeah, no, that’s an incredibly not ok thing to joke about. For exactly the reasons people have mentioned, that this person could get into a lot of trouble just based on someone overhearing it without the context, and also, every time someone jokes about it, someone calling someone out for actual racism gets taken less seriously.

      Jokes that cause harm are not ok.

      At this point, whether or not the original remark was racist or not is irrelevant. What matters is that you were joking about whether someone was saying something racist.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Most likely the rule is that all complaints of this manner HAVE to be made into a formal reprimand.

      On the HR side of things, I have recently learned that “verbal warnings” actually don’t have a single tooth and they don’t “exist” in the document process. It has to be formal, it has to be in writing. Or it doesn’t count against someone if there is a pattern later. [This is what our attorney told us in terms of documentation when dealing with discipline of any kind, others wouldn’t be so harsh but many employment attorneys fall hard on the “safer the better, cover your butt.”

      In reality, one formal report in your file is rarely a big deal but it is very rattling and frustrating, I know that for a fact from years of having to issue them and the one time someone decided to issue one to me [which was my cue to leave, honestly…but that’s only me and I was already halfway out the door!]

      My point really is that the write up is routine and I wouldn’t directly assume there’s something wrong with your workplace itself.

      I’m struggling to figure out any time it makes sense to ask about race prior to meeting with them. So I agree, he was actually being racist. But now you know you can’t joke about it, you should probably just report him to HR, since that’s his game, I’d play it [but I’m a petty jerk, so maybe don’t…but maybe do it to save your clients from being profiled, because seriously wtfffff]

    5. Scientist (not mad, just disappointed)*

      Thanks for the perspective y’all. My boss did talk to me a few days before sending me the ‘notice of disciplinary action,’ but she didn’t indicate she’d be sending one at all, which was an unpleasant surprise. I guess I don’t yet understand how things work in a formal workplace; my adult life until recently has been spent in grad school. When someone has a problem with me, I expect them to address it upfront to my face, because it tends to clear up a lot of confusion right away and mitigate drama, as I think it would have here. I’m also the kind of perfectionist that feels my life is over with a black mark on my record, but it’s good to know that it’s not the end of the world. (You should’ve seen me when I got my first detention lol.)

      Also an excellent point that a white person making a joking accusation of racism does undercut real complaints by POC – but I highly doubt that’s the point they were trying to get across here. We are not a very diverse workplace; only two black people in our building are in my department. Anyway, whatever “Bob’s” motives, whatever my workplace rationale, whether or not my comment rose to the level of concern it became – clearly not appropriate in my workplace, and I won’t say anything like it again.

      1. Close Bracket*

        When someone has a problem with me, I expect them to address it upfront to my face

        Corporate environments are a lot more passive aggressive. Not all, obviously, but many. I’m actually surprised that anyone told you who complained or gave you a chance to tell your side. When things have happened to me, it’s always along the lines of, “You were mean. Don’t be so mean.” I don’t get anything else, not names, not details, no chance to tell my side of the story bc I don’t know what the story is.

  203. NicoleK*

    So my replacement started this past Monday. And by Wednesday, 3 days on the job, she was giving me attitude. The first time: she got stuck on a process and got snippy because incompetent coworker couldn’t help her even though it’s a process incompetent coworker has done a million times before. The second time: she had made several mistakes and I was trying to explain why it’s important for the data to be correct. She was curt and dismissive with me. So far, I don’t have a good impression of replacement. She’s standoffish, doesn’t take notes, doesn’t ask questions, acts like training is beneath her, and acts like she knows everything already. I was suppose to be involved in her training, but I’ve already decided that I’m not going out of my way to help her. I’ll train her on the basic of processes and etc. but won’t be showing her the tips, tricks, and things I’ve learned over the years to make the job easier.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is giving me flashbacks to a couple of my replacements I’ve tried to train! Same attitude.

      Spoiler: NONE of them lasted longer than a month after I was gone. So they’ll get what they deserve probably.

  204. DanielleNPO*

    My company is based in Chicago, I currently work remotely in Michigan. My understanding is years ago my company registered to operate in Michigan and that is why I can live in Michigan but keep my job in Chicago. My husband is likely to get transferred soon to another branch for work and he is able to express preferences, so I would like to pick a state where I can keep my job. Our options are Ohio, Kentucky or Indiana. I know I have some co workers that live in the northern parts of Indiana and commute in to our offices in Chicago. Does anyone know if the same rules apply to Ohio or Kentucky? I read online something about reciprocal taxes in some states but I’m not sure if that answers my question. Does anyone know? I don’t want to tip off my employer by asking them so any assistance would be helpful.

    1. LQ*

      A lot of times the laws about employment (unemployment, insurance, liability, blah blah blah) are about the state the work is physically done in.

      If the people who live in Indiana, do the work in Illinois most of the time the laws that are being applied are Illinois laws. So the company would need to follow the set of laws of the state you are moving to. Most of the time this becomes about stuff like California having a law that says that you can’t work more than 8 hours in a day without overtime if you’re hourly. It’s also about stuff like which state the employer has to file your wages in for unemployment, which state workers comp laws, etc.

      Reciprocity is usually more about you as an individual filing your personal taxes than as the employer filing things for you/following laws for you. (If they have any folks working in that state they are likely already set up to have folks work there so that makes it a lot easier.)

      I don’t know that any of this helps. It is kind of a talk to your employer thing. (The really cynical thing to say would be go to whichever state has the least worker protections and the lowest rates of things like workers comp and unemployment.)

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m not understanding what you would be tipping your company off to? I guess in your situation, if my husband had to transfer for work and my job gave me the ability to keep my position *and* move with Hubs, I would be letting my company know and trying to work with them to keep everything working smoothly?

      1. DanielleNPO*

        I guess I’m asking do they need a business license in Kentucky or Ohio in order for me to work from there? I know people already live in Indiana and commute in to Chicago. Is the only way to find out to ask? I just want to have my ducks in a row before I let my company know.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I would honestly let them know and have them help in this. They will know where they have licenses, where they can get licenses, if there’s reciprocals…. this is something they should know how to handle.

    3. DanielleNPO*

      Also I feel like there was a recent update in December about someone who wanted to move while staying remote and was nervous about telling their employer but I can’t seem to find it. Any one remember that post?

  206. Anonymous for this*

    Posting anon as anyone at my company might figure this out that we are at the same company.

    So we just had a mini email “reply all” accidental spam that went on today at work. Your usual “respond if you’re interested in X” and the first few times, ok, maybe they’ll figure it out but by the 10th “I’m interested” it started to get tiring to the point me and several others went “hi, please use only the reply, not reply all” bit. Yeah, I realize after that that could have made it worse but the responses thankfully stopped and I got a few personal messages from others thanking me for saying it (ironic huh?). Of course now my anxiety is trying to ramp it up that I did a faux pas there (doesn’t help I’m looking to move up and work with some of those people) but I kept the tone friendly and hopefully my bosses are chill about it. And hey, we avoided a potential meltdown of our email servers so all’s good!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It probably wasn’t ideal to jump in at any point but honestly, this is going to really blow over FAST. Like by Monday most likely! This is one of those comedy of errors kind of days things that happens to just about all of us at some point.

      I lost my patience for a moment earlier when there was suddenly some side chatter, cross-room side chatter in a meeting I was trying to present with. There’s always some interjections and quick chatter here and there, which I’m cool with. But it was out of hand and I had to bring the room back, so I was all “Shhhhhh, let’s bring it back now, we’ve got to get back to work at some point!” Everyone reacted well enough and laughed it off but it was not a really perfect lovely moment, you know? It’s pretty standard stuff though, we lose our form at times, it blows over with the next “LOL did you see what Jim accidentally forwarded to Bill tho?” kind of thing. Or the next “drama” to show up when a customer has a fit over something insignificant.

  207. Retail not Retail*

    So we’ve discussed hurricanes and snow, but tornadoes and severe thunderstorms?

    My supervisor – texted him at 5am! – is in a part of the region getting hit harder than mine so I doubt there’d be conflict. My boss is off on saturdays and is in the same hard hit area. I just hope if we’re late he can take from our PTO. I don’t remember the exact severe weather protocol, but of course that was geared towards snow. We do have a tornado during the day plan – lock up valuables and hunker down.

    My work site lost power – the work we do doesn’t involve electricity.

  208. Potent potables*

    Is it possible that I was hired as a scapegoat? Coworkers keep mentioning “hazing”, but my other new colleagues aren’t experiencing this. I’m being told incorrect information, being ignored when I speak, management doesnt care, etc. I’m called dramatic when I voice my concerns… What should I do?

    1. AnonForThis*

      Try to get people who are telling you incorrect things in email (or send follow-up emails confirming) to have a trail to point to if they try to say you’re just incompetent. Then document and report to HR? As workplace bullying?

      At my previous male-dominated ToxicJob, people would treat people like this, but only those they saw as being the most “different” or as a “threat” – they mostly went after women, people who were more introverted (or really, who were perceived as aneurotypical) / had a “sweet” personality, and the people with years and years of experience who they felt threatened by. It was a trial by fire for people who weren’t welcome there.

      That sucks, and I hope it gets better for you.

      1. Potent potables*

        This is the same thing. Male-dominated, but even the few women are bullies. (not inviting me to meetings, refusing to give me the info I needed , dragging heels when the boss would say I needed materials, etc)

        1. AnonForThis*

          Ah, I see. I’m not sure if this will be the same for you, but… For me, people all of sudden started treating me respectfully only once someone did something so terrible that it went to HR and he got fired for it. :( Which made me wish I had gone to HR before that. It was like harassment whack-a-mole there, apparently – people tried to get away with bullying each new woman, then would only stop once it was escalated (to HR, my boss was useless and told me I just needed to stand up for myself and treated it like silly interpersonal drama) and they got in trouble for it. Then all of sudden once HR got involved, the woman was a valued member of the team no one would ever talk badly about! And in some cases, promoted.

          However, I guess at other places sometimes going to HR just makes it worse, so I understand that sometimes you don’t wanna take the risk when you’re new (that’s why I didn’t go to HR – someone else reported the behavior that got one of my bullies fired).

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Sadly women can be sexist, including discriminating against their own gender. They can also be bullies due to “power” plays and dynamics. They treat you the way that they feel they have to to either get ahead, stay ahead or show other’s their not a push over or whatever they may fear they open themselves up to by being kind to the new woman who’s being cast out for some reason by the rest of the crew.

          Bullies rarely have a reason behind their choice of victims. You’re there, they pushed you once, you took it so they pushed you again a little harder. they get satisfaction out of this because they like playing games with others for whatever reason their brains give them that satisfaction =( Sometimes it’s insecurity. Sometimes it’s an inferiority complex. Sometimes they’re bored and picking at people is their delight. =(

          Also if there’s an atmosphere of bullying, it is catching. We flush bullies fast for this reason. It is a disease and kills morale, giving people that ugly feeling inside.

          I’m sorry you’re in this situation. It’s not normal. You are in a toxic work place. This is not normal!

      2. Toxic Waste*

        Is there a way to successfully navigate situations like this until you can get out? (Asking for a friend…)

        1. AnonForThis*

          I’m no expert, but at my last job, it also seemed to help when I stopped trying to participate in technical conversations and went out of my way to make my coworkers feel Big – occasionally making self-deprecating comments to show I wasn’t “arrogant,” treating them like the experts, asking for their opinions on things and saying “good point.” Sigh. I mean, it is good to be kind and humble in general but… And I also started just keeping my head down and focusing on making my work the best it could be and being as productive as possible – so that they couldn’t say I wasn’t competent. (And I began studying outside of work everyday so that I could be twice as good as everyone else…)

          1. AnonForThis*

            Forgot to add: but it definitely worked, in that they begged me to stay when I finally quit. Lol!

  209. Environmental Compliance*

    So, corporate’s take on the complaints was to put all of Management into a room with our boss (who was the subject of the complaints) and tell us to talk it out. Then put each of us into two on ones (with a corporate guy, Boss, and ourselves) in a room and let’s talk about how we want each other to improve.

    Blech. Because, you know, the best way to get honest answers *during review season* is to put us in a room face to face with the person who can fire us and/or severely dock our reviews and tell us to complain to them *to their face* is a great way to accomplish anything.

    Reinforcing the getting out quickly. I am very thankful and impatient for the consulting firm who is very interested in me. The petty side of me is somewhat hoping that I can get to March, when our bonuses come out.

    1. PX*

      Been following your saga. So bummed that management is being ridiculous about this. I was optimistic based on your last update that they might be somewhat sensible but alas, no.

      So all I can say is good luck on the consulting firm! And yeah, absolutely set a start date in April so you can time it strategically ;)

  210. Anon Here*

    I’m going to be a boss. Thank you to AAM for all of the good advice over the years! I’m about to put it to use.

  211. Abby Lockhart*

    I applied to grad school for the fall semester but am having second thoughts. I just finished two undergrad prerequisite courses and am wrapping up a third. I’m exhausted and already feeling burned out; I finished undergrad 10 years ago so haven’t been in school for awhile. I don’t know if I want to do a two-year program with tests, papers, and a thesis just so I can earn more down the road. Can anyone relate?

  212. Bronte*

    Quick question: is the receptionist/office assistant supposed to do all the annoying little tasks? I haven’t worked in an office before, but I have been in the workforce for a long time. I’ve just never been everyone’s go-to for little tasks that they could ostensibly do themselves (pick up lunch, get the mail, make a sign in sheet, make a phone call, keep track of volunteers, etc.). I can usually find time to do it, but I’m also responsible for other huge, time-sensitive tasks and my coworkers never seem to be aware that I’m busy. Basically, I’m the office b**** for six staff people. I’ve been in management before in a different industry and everyone had their own roles and worked as a team while staying in their swim lanes. There wasn’t this “peon” status that I seem to have acquired. I don’t want to make it an issue if it’s standard office practice. I try to keep a humble attitude but I am stressed out of my gourd and always so busy when other people seem to be hanging out most of the day. Am I being unreasonable?

    1. Bronte*

      Also the youngest and newest employee. I’m in my mid-twenties but I look younger and most of my coworkers are old enough to be my parents (so they treat me as though they are).

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        My experience is that yes, the receptionist / office assistant does get all the little annoying tasks.

        *IF* the little ad hoc tasks are preventing you from completing your big ones, you can pick a couple of the most time-consuming, sit down with your manager, and talk about workload / whether you can refuse certain things. Of the things you listed, mail / sign-up sheet / phone call / volunteers sound like totally normal tasks. Picking up lunch could be a little odd if you’re just doing it for 1 – 2 people (esp if they could get it delivered), but if it’s ‘get this lunch we ordered for everyone’, then that’s totally normal.

        1. Bronte*

          Okay, seems fair. I need to talk to my boss about workload because it feels really skewed compared with some of the others’! I do want to be cooperative when it comes to normal stuff though.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Wait. Are you saying that because you’re being asked to do more than you know others do, you think your workload is skewed? You honestly don’t know what everyone does on a daily basis for their jobs, so I wouldn’t start barking up that tree.

            Office assistance and receptionists are the “go to” for unskilled tasks in just about every single office, that’s the nature of the job. Nothing you’ve listed above shouldn’t be asked of you.

            If you cannot keep up with your core duties [phones/scheduling/whatever that core task may be] then you should absolutely ask your boss about how to prioritize tasks and work load. But if it’s simply “nobody else seems to have all these little things to do, why do I get all these things piled on me while nobody else does?” the response is “because you’re an assistant and office-support.”

            If someone is treating you as a personal assistant, when you support the entire group, that’s a different world. If Nancy in accounting just rings you up and says “hey here’s my lunch order, get that done.” that’s usually not okay. Or if Jim is all “Hey I need you to run these personal errands.” again, not okay. But if it’s just their little tasks they’re pitching at you, that’s literally what a general office assistant is for.

            And it’s sad that your mind swerves to “peon” and “b*tch” when it comes to a support role. That’s in your head and isn’t how people actually view you. It’s not your age. It’s literally your position.

            I say this as someone who has an extensive background in office management and designate who’s responsible for each role. If my office assistant came to me and asked me if they were supposed to be picking up the mail or dealing with a guest sign in sheet, I would start to question their fit for the role. Most offices do not have clear “lanes”, we cross streams all the time. You may be in the wrong industry if you don’t like that.

          2. WellRed*

            I don’t mean to be unkind but do you seriously think your workload is heavier or more complex than the people you were hired to support? You’re in your late 2os so I am guessing you don’t have tons of professional experience going to waste, either. Doesn’t matter that you are youngest( so sick of people blaming their youth for everything) or the newest. Your problem is you took a job you think is beneath you. Make peace or move on.

            1. Delta Delta*

              This. I’m an attorney. If I ask my assistant to schedule appointments, get the mail, and take phone calls, that’s support so I can do my job (and thus, generate income to pay us both). If that same assistant refers to self as a peon for having to do the tasks is the job, that person isn’t my assistant anymore. If that person wants a clear definition of tasks, that’s fine. Ask for that and establish what the job is.

          3. WellRed*

            I want to add, you can only compare your workload to someone in an equivalent position with similar duties. Be clear on who you’re comparing yourself to before you bring this to your boss.

  213. DoctorateStrange*

    I did just about the worst thing. I’m on GovernmentJobs and I applied to a dream position. I didn’t realize till later that I uploaded my resume where it says I’m pursuing a Master’s in English rather than an MLS.

    You see, I was rearranging my resume (hadn’t updated it since two years ago) and in reality, I do have a Bachelor’s in English but I am pursuing an MLS. I am so mad for not noticing that after reviewing everything.

    Anyways, I did put in the actual application itself that I am pursuing an MLS. I am thinking of contacting the hiring managers and asking to send in an updated resume. Is that feasible?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain, I think. You can’t let that typo go through the system, so might as well try to fix it now before you get too far down this road. I think I’d refer to it as corrected rather than updated, though.

    3. merp*

      Late reply but — I did something almost similar when I applied to a state job – mine was a typo in the date range of a position rather than a degree title but similarly had written the actual correct dates elsewhere in the application. I also didn’t realize until after I’d had an initial phone interview (!) so it gave me a chance to reach out to the person I had already communicated with and correct the mistake. In my case, she just forwarded it on to HR to update their applicant records, and it all worked out fine – I got the job. I feel you on the frustration but I think sending in an update would be fine! Especially if the MLS is required for the job you’ve applied for.

  214. CSR by Day*

    My current weird work situation. In my job as a CSR I get involved in some fairly complex situations, usually involving multiple problems on a client’s account, that take a fair amount of time to correct. The weird policy at work is that as long as we have the customer on the phone everything is fine, but once they’re off the phone we’re supposed to be done with the problem. We do have a few minutes to get things wrapped up once we’re off the phone, but it’s supposed to be no more than five minutes. I’d like to say that most of the calls average about 15 minutes or so, but it is not unheard of to have one that lasts more than an hour.

    The phone calls are all recorded, but only randomly reviewed. The length of time on the phone is noted, as is the time spent wrapping up the problem when off the phone and I’m now getting reported as spending too much time wrapping things up, but sometimes things take time. Personally, it bothers me keeping the customers on hold while I’m working on their accounts and I kind of feel like frequently it is unnecessary and a waste of the customers’ time. I don’t think this is anything I can push back on, but I’d like to hear what others think about it.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yeah, this is definitely something that has plagued jobs I’ve had as a phone rep, too. OldJob had a dedicated team that was supposed to take referrals from phone reps for anything that couldn’t be handled over the course of the phone call, but NewJob works on a more ad-hoc basis; you let your manager know if you’ve got a thorny issue and you get an exception made for project work.

      Of the two, I like the ad-hoc system better. You don’t have to dump off the problem on someone else, and you keep it in your own hands where you already know all the details. But if this is extremely common for you, it would be worth talking to your boss about ways to restructure your scheduling to account for it.

      I wouldn’t approach it as ‘pushing back on,’ but rather express it to your boss as part and parcel of trying to provide thorough service.

      1. valentine*

        Keep them on the line. You can say, “I’ll take care of this right now for you. […] You’re all set.” I’d hate to think my short phone time cost the rep who solved my issue, and I don’t mind long calls if, at the end, I know everything’s wrapped up. I’m just glad to be really free at the end and know the refund will appear or what have you.

    2. Plus Ultra*

      I don’t own a Goggle Pixel, but everyone I know who is an Android lover who wants more control over their phones all have Pixels. Personally, I’m on my third Motorola and I’m a huge fan of them. Mine is currently 3 years old, my last one was 3 years when I traded it in because I wanted a better camera. I have the Moto Droid Z. It does come with some Motorola bloatware but you can stop them from running even if you can’t remove them outright.

    3. CSR by Day*

      Thank you for your insights, Countess and valentine.

      The job is made worse by the old and unreliable software that we have. It is so frustrating when you’re trying to take an action and then the program you need to use times out, or crashes, or freezes and you have to start over. There is a process where we take referrals for things we can’t do ourselves, usually when we don’t have access to a particular supporting document, but filling out the referral form and including all of the detailed necessary actions is disturbingly time-consuming.

      That said, my boss has said I can go to her to get an exception when need be and I’m probably going to have to do that at least a couple of times a week. You’re so right about framing the issue as “providing thorough service” and not as pushing back.

      Most of the customers are like you, valentine, very patient, polite and even grateful when I’ve been able to take care of their issues, so I suppose that keeping them on the line for an extra 15 minutes to half an hour isn’t that big of a deal for most of them. But there are always the handful that aren’t so patient or understanding and those are the ones that kind of stick in my mind, unfortunately.

  215. HRforYou*

    Hi All,

    I’m in HR and I LOVE my job and my manager, but the top grandboss of everything makes me feel like my work isn’t valued by others because it keeps stalling. Our top brass wants their hand in absolutely everything so even if I finish a project quickly, it can take days, sometimes weeks for employees to see it. This is everything from staff update emails (aka promotions, terminations, job postings, etc.) to hiring, to larger projects we’re trying to roll out for staff (e.g. new systems, updated policies, etc.)

    I’m a very “check off the box” kind of person so I find it incredibly frustrating and demoralizing when I spend days just waiting around to do the next step, or have to abandon a project completely because it’s suddenly no longer a priority and I can’t get a response. Plus, it makes me and my department look unprofessional when it takes over a week to send out a simple email about a promotion. Everything is over a month late at this point.

    This is a struggle not just for me, but a number of people in the office whose work is stalled by the “stamp of approval” so to speak. There have been a number on conversations and attempts at changing this structure to keep things moving smoother all around but to no avail.

    What’s a better way to view this so I get less frustrated? Or is there a way to learn how to get these tasks done without seeming insubordinate? So much of my time is spent waiting and I want to be more of an asset for my company than seems currently possible with this structure.

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