open thread – February 12-13, 2021

by Alison Green on February 12, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Despearately_Seeking_Solitude*

    What are some solitary jobs for a sensitive introvert? I have a four year degree already and could devote one year to learning to do something else. Any suggestions?

    1. Zephy*

      How solitary is “solitary,” are you looking for WFH data entry type roles where you never have to physically interact with a living human being? Or would you be OK with an office setting, where you may need to call or email people on a daily basis, but without requiring you to manufacture an entire Work Personality like you would need to for direct customer service (retail, fast food, etc)?

    2. Web Crawler*

      Lots of technology jobs- programming as a developer or quality assurance tester, website developer, or penetration tester.

      As a junior developer at a huge company, I have a daily 15 minute meeting and outside of that, I have the rest of my 7.75 hours to work by myself. Plus an hour of organizing meetings every few weeks, where I have to say about 5 words in the realm of “sure”, “looks good”, “this will take a day of work”

      1. Mimi*

        Potentially information security, too. There would probably be meetings (internally, maybe also with clients or vendors about security questionnaires), possibly occasional trainings, and things would be stressful when there are data breaches etc (though less so if you were an infosec minion instead of The Only Infosec Person), but a lot of it is data entry, tracking, and compliance metrics. I think a lot of companies are looking for a four-year degree (ideally STEM-adjacent) plus one or more certifications, though you’d want to confirm that.

        1. Anon for This*

          Not necessarily. There are a lot of places that have only just realized they need Info Security, so there is a high probability of being sucked into meetings all day because there are too many projects and not enough people.

      2. devtoo*

        Agree! I’m a software developer as well. Programming jobs tend to be structured for maximum focused solitary work time, and a good product owner or project manager will actively shield you from unnecessary meetings or workplace drama that will cut into your coding time. Plus, this already fairly remote-friendly industry has become even more so due to COVID, and companies are a lot more open to hiring brand new junior devs as remote workers than even a year ago (at least in my experience–I don’t have industry-wide data on that). And a year is definitely enough time to do a reputable boot camp or intensive self study

      3. Julianna*

        Yep, came here to say this. As someone who went from a client services role to a programming role, I have one meeting a week and otherwise just communicate with my team over Slack. Its lovely.

      4. sara*

        Yes, agree with this. Maybe less so with testing – at least at my company, but we have just a 2 person QA team, so they’re in lots of meetings to understand requirements as well as doing the testing. But I’d say junior devs on my team are in about 2 hours of meetings total each week (that includes daily huddle). As a senior dev (on a team lead track, rather than individual contributor track), it varies a lot more for me. Usually about 3-4 hours a week, but some weeks especially around project kick-off and pre-deployment, it’s more like 10 hours a week of meetings.

        Your meetings might increase as you get less junior, but also at the right company there would be career paths that don’t require more meetings. Also, the onboarding process might have a lot more meetings, chats etc. with other teams and other developers but definitely don’t take that to be the norm for the rest of your time there. Once you’re set up to be able to write code solo, your meeting time will decrease dramatically!

        One thing to consider here is that software development can be good for introverts but not as much people with poor communication skills. In fact, if you struggle to ask questions effectively or communicate requirements etc. then you might end up in more meetings or impromptu discussions as a result.

    3. Malika*

      I work in Customer Service, and if you get to work from home it is beautifully solitary, but you are still able to have basic interactions with other people. Even though we are in a pandemic, I have never spoken to so many people daily, yet i don’t feel drained by the end of the day. Our programmers are very solitary and they earn bank doing a job that suits their personality.

      1. Emma*

        I’m having the exact opposite experience! I’m pretty introverted, and used to do a lot of face to face customer service for my job which I generally enjoyed, and even when I wasn’t enjoying it, it was just ok.

        Now I’m doing it entirely by phone, wfh, and it’s honestly the most exhausting thing I have ever done. I’m getting halfway through the morning and finding I just can’t pick up the phone any more and and am letting calls go to voicemail so I can ring them back. I get no work done in the afternoon; and today, despite finishing an hour early, it’s 8:30pm where I am and I am just now feeling like I could get up and do something other than watch TinyKittens on the big TV (fortunately my wife has offered to cook today…)

        It’s interesting how different people experience the same thing so differently!

    4. I edit everything*

      Freelance editor. Lots of email communication, but very little face-to-face interaction. There are several editing certificate programs out there. I’ve heard good things about UC-Davis (I think it was Davis), University of Chicago, and Columbia. I think there’s also one from one of the Colorado universities. You can also find good courses from the Editorial Freelancers Association, if you want to see if it suits without making a big investment. I have a 2-year master’s degree from Emerson College, but if you’re just looking to hang up a shingle and do some copyediting, that would be overkill.

      1. londonedit*

        I agree, but only if you’re happy with the idea of pitching to people for work – it can be quite uncomfortable having to do the ‘Hey, I’ve got a bit of spare time in the diary if you have any upcoming projects!’ dance or getting in touch with new contacts to advertise your skills.

        1. I edit everything*

          True. That’s the part of the job I suck at. Luckily, I have a steady gig with a book packager, which keeps work flowing in pretty steadily.

      2. Warm Weighty Wrists*

        I do in-house editing, which avoids the part of pitching work (mostly), and I love it. As my responsibilities have increased, I’ve had more meetings in my day, but the bulk is still spent quietly getting work done. UC Berkeley also has an editing certificate program that I believe can be done online, and I know several professional editors who have spoken highly of it.

      3. Edit This*

        I’m a technical editor for a giant company. But 99% of my communication is through email and occasionally Microsoft teams chat. I can live with that.

      4. nep*

        ‘hang up a shingle and do some copyediting’–I’m still working on getting back to editing after some time away from it. Still pushing for that one break that will help me get established as freelance editor. A few odd jobs earlier this year from one writer, which was great, but nothing since. Any suggestions welcome.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Or even if you are squeamish, depending on how your squeamish presents itself. I can’t deal with pictures, so my team is perfectly happy to let me go AUGH THIS ONE HAS INFECTED FISSURES CAN YOU PLEASE and give me their complicated oncology charts instead. :) But I haven’t had to talk to anyone but my boss for work other than through chat or email in like three weeks.

    6. LTL*

      I’m not sure how old you are or how much work experience you have, but I wanted to share my personal experience with you in case it’s helpful. When I graduated college at 21 (I was 22 when I got my first job), I was a major introvert and I wouldn’t have chosen the job I ended up in. It wasn’t super extroverted but it involved a good deal of collaboration on a semi-social team. Not social outside the office but just at our cubicles. I’m still an introvert, but I feel like I gained a lot from being forced out of my comfort zone. There was so much I hadn’t experienced or seen yet and it was good to experience and see them. I’m only 26 now but just something to note.

      1. DeweyDecibal*

        I had a similar experience- I took a receptionist/sales job and had to learn really quickly how to talk to people. I was painfully shy/introverted and it was so draining at first, but eventually I learned how. A decade later. I now have a job that is in an office alone for most of the time and I find myself missing the interactions!

      2. Overeducated*

        Yes, this was my experience too. I made decisions during and after college looking for more solitary work, but in my late 20s found that I thrived in a more collaborative environment, where I’m not necessarily “on” with the public and meetings all day, but do spend a lot of time strategizing with others to figure out how our individual contributions can have a broader impact. I think I limited myself early on by pigeonholing myself as an introvert too severely.

      3. Hmmm*

        I agree. I’ve always been both introverted and quiet growing up and always wanted nothing more than a boring office job where I could just sit at my cubicle, keep my head down, do my work and go home. I studied pretty solitary major (history) and was used to churning out work by myself. But once I actually started working, I realized that there’s always going to be some level of collaboration and interaction with your colleagues and managers. Work life isn’t at all like school, where your professors will give you a rubric ahead of time and all you have to do is just follow the instructions. Sure, your boss will give you basic guidelines for your projects, but often the specifics aren’t fleshed out because you/your team may be encountering a specific situation for the first time, or maybe you run into unexpected issues that require troubleshooting.

        Even with super entry level data entry roles, I still had to interact with different stakeholders. It was uncomfortable at first, but I found that I’m actually quite good at stakeholder management and interacting with others. I still prefer to have my alone time, but when a situation requires me to work collaboratively, I’m confident in my abilities and my managers have always been able to rely on me.

        All this is to say, OP, don’t knock it til you try it.

      4. A Person*

        This is a really good point. I am also an introvert and I HATE jobs where I have to interact with strangers, but I like having a team of people I work with on a regular basis. I actually worked at a job in my specialty (analytics) where the team was less collaborative and really expected you to work primarily alone and avoid questions. That turned out to be a really bad match for me!

        For me I think it was less about pushing outside my comfort zone and more about realizing things I enjoy in my personal life (small groups of people I know well) translated to work, too.

      5. allathian*

        I’ve always been introverted and in my teens I was painfully shy as well. I’m still introverted in the sense that I need a lot of time to myself for mental health and that spending any amount of time interacting with a large number of people is exhausting. To work through my shyness I joined the drama club at my high school and worked in retail for a number of years in high school and college. It did me good, and I found that I wasn’t afraid of interacting with strangers in a work role, and it also made it a lot easier for me to get to know people when I went to college.

        I do find that I have more energy to spend on other things now that I’m WFH and can avoid most of the interruptions at the office.

    7. ID Work*

      I do Instructional Design work and it is fairly solitary. Depending on the project, I have to talk to Subject Manner Experts (SME) and sometimes work with project teams but that is a small part of my overall work. I have a FT work at home role now, but even when I was in an office my interaction with people was mostly office chit chat. If you are sensitive to feedback it could be hard for you. I have been at it long enough that I don’t care, but in the beginning when people did not like something I wrote, I would feel bad about it.

      1. Skeeder Jones*

        I was coming here to say the same thing. I work 100% remote and work on a 100% remote learning and development team. Most of my day is just me and my keyboard. There is some human interaction, especially with SMEs and project meetings (mostly status updates) but it’s not overwhelming at all and I am definitely an introvert. As ID Work mentioned, you do need to be able to accept critical review but I view it this way: the work I do is not for me. It doesn’t need to work for me because I am not the client or audience. I need the feedback to make sure it works for the people who need. And the other thing is I can see how all the feedback I receive just makes the course better and inevitably, makes me better at my job. I get to be creative, do a lot of writing, bring ideas to life, even some graphic design type work. I love it.

    8. SwitchingGenres*

      I had a library cataloging job where I worked alone in a vault all day. Just me and books. It was blissful.

    9. Hunnybee*

      I work as a Product and UX Designer. I loved the aspect of being able to focus deeply on the work that I do, and I also liked thinking about how to help people with my work. Fulfilling work for an introvert!

      However, your team and manager really determine your comfort. I think that maybe you can carve out ways to be yourself, and also find strength within yourself as an introvert, if you find the right mix of people and manager regardless of what you actually do for a living. Sadly, extroverts seem to rarely value what introverts need in a job and require us to do all sort of emotional and behavioral gymnastics to fit in and make them feel more comfortable.

      I was hired to my current role by someone I really respect who, having worked with me in the past, was willing to allow me the time that I needed to do my work and keep my camera off (I feel REALLY uncomfortable on camera). In this context, I felt safe and it allowed me to feel comfortable getting to know my coworkers in a way that was easier for me, which in turn made me feel more social.

      If you can find a team and manager that nurture and support who you are as an introvert, there is no limit to the success you will have. I hope you will find work that you love and a team that will leave you alone to do it.

      1. Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers*

        I’m also an introvert (mostly) doing UX and adjacent design work. I love the work itself, but I find the work environment has a huge influence on how introvert-friendly / stressful is it. Same thing for devs and QA guys.

        Not friendly:
        – being embedded in an agile team where regular meetings such as standups and sprint planning can take up to 10 hours a week
        – being in a more senior role where you’re expected to engage more with your cross functional team, and other parts of the business, than your junior colleagues
        – a work environment that is structured so you join a brand new team every 3 or 6 months and have to go through all that storming, forming, etc, 2 to 4 times a year
        – working with business folk who don’t really understand design (sometimes not product development or agile either) and need ongoing coaching to understand your job

        So it’s a combination of the job and the environment that makes it a good it or otherwise.

  2. Eff Liquid Planner*

    My company has started aggressively using project management software. Everyone is being shoved into an R&D mold, even jobs that don’t work that way, and we’re floundering.

    I now have to bill 8 hours per day to projects, so my workday has drastically increased, because anything administrative/housekeeping-related now has to occur outside those 8 hours.

    In a typical day, I will have a series of projects that require 5-10 minute updates. But, we’re not allowed to assign less than 30 minute chunks to any project. If I follow that rule, work that uses 90 minutes out of my day would be assigned 4 ½ hours. So I pick and choose a few of the projects I did to bill each day, and rotate through them throughout the week, trying to keep the numbers even.

    I hate this. We’re being treated like lawyers, billing our time, but without the good pay. Suggestions for adapting the system to the needs of non-STEM departments have been ignored. Any tips or hacks to get better at working this way?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      can they set up a “project” called Administration so that you bill to that project as appropriate? We use a similar tool for our time reporting but my role is purely admin and not at all client-facing, so I bill all 40 hours of my week to “admin” or “business development.”

      1. Marie*

        This would only solve the mechanical problem of billing your time but wouldn’t solve it if Eff needs to bill 8 hours directly to projects and needs to find other time to get admin/management stuff done. I have a STEM-adjacent job and need to bill my time in a similar way. My target is 95% billable even though I supervise people and have other overhead type responsibilities. I do, however, charge time I spend managing my projects in our management software and things like that to the project. So you might need some guidance from your boss about what is “billable” in their opinion.

      2. Unfettered scientist*

        Yeah I’m wondering if there’s a way to have a general account that is distributed across all projects for general admin. We have something like that for purchases and it just pulls equally from all grants. It still sucks that you have to bill your hours, but you should be able to count admin tasks toward those hours because they’re necessary and valuable.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          This is how I’ve seen it work before (in a tech company) – departments that don’t directly work on “billable” customer work, such as HR and Finance, don’t have to fill out time sheets etc but rather their time is taken to be apportioned between departments on a (headcount? salary? Not sure, but it’s something like this) basis so that if department X makes up 20% of the company then it’s considered HR (etc) is allocated 20% to that department.

          It works quite well, but I’m not sure in the case that some of the OPs work is genuinely attributed to specific projects but some is more ‘general’/’cross-company’.

          Agree with speaking to the boss – if they are also not part of a STEM department they are presumably also encountering this.

          1. gsa*

            My wife worked in architecture firm and they had to fill out a timesheet in order to track our spent on a particular project.

            What her company did was assigned each person a percentage rate, but I don’t remember the name. In other words the interns were somewhere around 95%, Managers were at 80%, and executives were at 65%.

            1. Frank Doyle*

              Of how much of their time has to be billable? I’m an engineer, so same thing, I need to bill my time to different jobs. But I always thought it was bs to have to have 40 billable hours a week, because there’s still stuff (research, computer issues, filling out timesheets) that has to be done that isn’t billable.

    2. Darlingpants*

      This suggestion comes from the place that this is stupid and you don’t need to learn to work with it, but if your manager/team would super hate this then you know best.

      Bill the 10 minute project updates to the project and then do your admin work for the remain 20 minutes.

      1. TPS reporter*

        I agree with that approach. The assumption is that your fee to the client incorporates an overhead rate. Your admin/housekeeping stuff is overhead.

    3. CTT*

      I don’t think your company gets how billing works – you cannot get 8 billable hours out of 8 working hours. Do you feel comfortable talking to your colleagues and trying to push back to set more realistic goals? I imagine you’re not the only one having this issue.

      (And for perspective, I’m a BigLaw attorney and we’re not expected to regularly bill 8 hours a day!)

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        That’s what I was thinking. From my limited knowledge, when you bill for something it’s not going to be the exact time. You have admin tasks that you have to complete in order to do the projects. So if you don’t answer email, ship packages, or whatever the tasks are, eventually you aren’t going to be able to get the project done.

      2. Pilcrow*

        It’s the difference between “billing” and “accounting.” Billing is charged back to clients at ab hourly rate. Accounting is tracking all your time, including administrative tasks, billed time, and time off. I suspect the employer really means accounting for 40 hrs/week.

        Places I’ve worked usually had two major divisions: project and administrative.

        For the project division there were billed project buckets that were charged back to the client requesting the work and non-billed project buckets that tracked stuff that is part of the job but not directly charged back to clients. For a non-billed project example, I’m a technical writer and every quarter we updated the suite of manuals for the product. It was not specific to any one client for charge-back purposes but still a central job function that was tracked separately.

        The administrative division covered things like misc meetings not accounted for in other projects (like an all-hands meeting), time spent filling out the project tracking / status reports, training, and PTO.

        Most organizations put rules around how much time can be put into general admin buckets, like only .5 hrs/day. Sometimes there is a limit on how many hours can be billed to any one client. However, your employer needs to explain these kinds of rules to you.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          This. What OP is being asked to do is not lawyer-style billing. It’s tracking their time so that the company gathers accounting information.

          OP should ask their direct supervisor for guidance on how to track items that take less than the reportable minimum time.

        2. Donkey Hotey*

          Hey, I’m a Tech Writer who bills 99% to Admin, even on customer specific tasks. It can be done, it just depends on the company.

    4. Sled dog mama*

      Could they give you “projects” to bill to? Like creating an admin project to bill that time to. Also could they look at a weekly aggregate? So maybe you bill 60 minutes a week on those projects that take 5-10 minutes a day (reading back I see you are essentially doing that I’m suggesting formalizing it with whoever is looking at this). Also are they actually looking at where the time is going in a meaningful way, ie are they just saying “Eff Liquid Planner is using all the time in their workday” or are they saying “hmm, looks like more/less time is being spent on this project than we thought.” Because that would change how I would bring suggestions to management.
      I was in a similar boat a few years ago where management was (unknown to us) tracking our productivity based on how much time they estimated the tasks required to generate a note took. 3 problems with this, 1) it didn’t reflect all the non-note generating things we had to do 2) it often left out the fact that it took 2 people to complete a task but only one had to document it 3) they had no clue how long anything took. That place was a nightmare because they wanted a simple we can pull it out of the system without talking to people measure of productivity when in reality it’s really complicated because maybe person X isn’t generating as many as person Y because X is doing harder/ more complex tasks than Y or X is taking on more of the admin stuff because Y loses their temper when they have to deal with it and X doesn’t care.

    5. Blackcat*

      This is bonkers. Everywhere I know that requires this detailed billing has some sort of administrative/overhead/etc category (multiple of them, in fact! My husband’s work has a specific “IT has my computer but I’m ready to work whenever it’s fixed code) AND bills to the 1/1oth of an hour. So a quick email is billed as 6 minutes.
      If they insist on sticking with this system, push for a smaller tracking increment and adding administrative codes.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      As an attorney, I can tell you that it is well understood that in an 8 hour workday, on average, only about 6 hours is “billable.” The expectation that you would routinely bill 8 hours per day is out of whack. I’m pretty busy this week, but I see I’ve been billing about 6.6-7 hours per day.

      As for the billing “chunks” I don’t understand what is going on there — I didn’t follow the explanation. Billing 30 minutes three times to show a task that took 30 minutes total (in 10 minute increment) is NOT DONE. Instead, throughout the day I track how much I spend on each “project” then (back before the magic of tech) I would add up the numbers and divide by my billing increments. So 30 minutes throughout the day would be billed as 30 minutes. Of course, as a lawyer, I bill in .1 increments. I now have a widget on my desktop that tracks those numbers, so I don’t have to pull out a calculator at the end of the day.

      1. Eff Liquid Planner*

        Better explanation of what I said about chunking, with conveniently-rounded numbers to make this easier:

        In a standard 5-day week, say I spend 6 minutes per day on 5 tasks A, B, C, D, and E. Since I can’t put in less than 30 minutes a piece, I’m instead inputting 30 minutes of A on Monday, 30 minutes of B on Tuesday, 30 minutes of C on Wednesday, 30 minutes of D on Thursday, and 30 minutes of E on Friday. The totals for the week are correct and adhere to the 30-minute rule, even though the daily breakdown is technically wrong.

        Yes, this is stupid and awful, but it’s the best workaround I’ve come up with.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          Do you have the functionality to put in a “comment” (i.e. freehand text) alongside the time entry?

        2. Ferret*

          How is this stupid and awful? This is how it’s worked every time I’ve had to use a timesheet. Unless your manager has specifically told you so I don’t think you need to worry about being forensically accurate, it’s just meant to be a tool to make sure your pay is coming out of the correct budget

          1. lost academic*

            It’s not stupid and awful, I think, but you do of course need to be aware if the contract with a particular client might prohibit that because they need a certain level of traceability. Only time I’ve seen that be an issue in practice though is when we’ve had field staff want to ‘float’ billable worked hours on their timesheet from week 1 to week 2 when they’ve had a massively long week and want to create a little breathing room the next – some client agreements specifically prohibit that kind of billing record.

    7. Two Dog Night*

      Half an hour minimum is ridiculous–that needs to be changed. Otherwise I think your strategy is reasonable; you need to be billing that 90 minutes, but you can’t properly split it up.

      Good luck. Time tracking is the worst.

    8. Parenthesis Dude*

      You’re almost certainly taking it too seriously. Assign the admin/housekeeping tasks to the project that makes the most sense. If it’s none, assign your time to the projects you worked on that day.

      1. Evergreen*

        Just wanting to second this! I have always worked jobs with timesheets for accounting purposes and always done it this way: if the purpose is just to get a sense of how long given projects take, getting to plus-minus an hour a week on projects is typically good enough.

    9. Tex*

      My company has a similar set up. However, accounting takes into account overhead tasks and items when billing the client. For example if I am 100% on a project with my 40 hours billed only to that number, accounting has a certain designated % that they assume are overheads and paid for in the corporate budget; I never see that number. If my time is split between two projects (30% Project A and 70% Project B), then the overheads are split proportionally between the two clients. If I have a special project that someone asks me to do, then they give me a special charge number.

      You should not be working extra, it should just be a change in the way your time is accounted.

      1. TechWorker*

        Yes, though it isn’t *free* to track everything you do. Presumably you get used to it, but it can be a pain at first!

    10. I'm just here for the cats*

      Sorry, I am unfamiliar with this type of situation. It sounds terrible. I was wondering, are there any of your administration tasks that could be loosely cataloged as part of a project? I don’t know how this works or what your administrative tasks are. Maybe build into the project’s time for miscellaneous work? Hope it gets better

    11. BRR*

      Instead of asking for adaptions, have you tried asking how you should bill your current work? “How would you like me/us to code work that takes under 30 minutes?” My last job lumped all employees into one template and it was incredibly frustrating.

    12. Chaordic One*

      This is horrible!

      My employer uses a similar system that requires us to break things down into “tenths” of hours (or 6 minute increments of time) and I find that difficult to use. If we could just use minutes or even 5 minute increments time. Similar to your situation, we don’t have time to do things like reading email during during the 8 hours we are supposed to be doing billable work.

      Good luck in pushing back. Hopefully, you can build some consensus with your coworkers and present a unified front when you do so.

      1. Pilcrow*

        I rarely tracked to less than .5 hr increments and never in less than .25 (or .03) hr. There is no real point to dividing it any finer than that. If a task only took 10 minutes I’d still enter .25 in the time tracker.

        If I had to only track by .5 hr increments and I spent 55 minutes on Project A and then 5 minutes on a misc admin task, I’d just assign all that time to Project A.

    13. Erika22*

      My PM job also requires a time card but we have a BAU (business as usual) category for general admin, team mtgs, PD, etc, and the rest of our time goes to specific projects. We’re meant to aim for 20-30% BAU for the week. It seems strange your company wouldn’t have something like this!

    14. Ferret*

      This sound similar to how I’ve filled out timesheets at all of my jobs – though I’m salaried (in the UK so not exactly the same terms but this is the best comparison) but in each job I have been expected to fill out a timesheet each week for 40 hours. It isn’t really relevant how many hours I actually work, just that it is correctly split proportionally.

      No-one has ever cared if the time is billed on the exact day it was done, just that at the end of the week it all adds up*. E.g. if I split my time across the week between 5 projects I will fill out the sheet with 8 hours on Monday to project 1, Tuesday to project 2 etc, even if I have worked on all of them each day.

      Admin and non-project related stuff has been handled differently by different companies, my current job expects me to bill a full 40 hours to my current project and projects are planned with a certain amount of overhead built in, while a previous role had a special admin code for things like company meetings and training. There is generally an “Unbillable” code but this is only if you don’t have a project at all and is normally just in the gaps.

      *Exception is holiday leave which needs to be booked on the day it was taken to make sure it ties in with the leave booking/tracking system

    15. Girasol*

      My boss did this and I had to work 10 hours days to bill 8 hours of work. I complained. A coworker insisted that we weren’t meant to be head-down on a single project for a 15 minute increment (our rule) or else the time didn’t count. What he was doing was at the end of the day deciding that he’d spent twice as much time on Project A as on B and C, and so he’d divide his day into 4 hours for A, 2 hours each for B and C, and never mind that some of the 8 hours was spent reading emails or spending a few minutes here and there pinging people on projects D and E.

    16. Glomarization, Esq.*

      FWIW this is not just a STEM thing. I’ve worked gigs where I’ve had to track my administrative support time across different categories for my timesheets. One thing I’ve done to keep ahead of the tracking was to write little notes down on a notepad as I worked through the day, then take a few minutes at end of business to enter it into the software.

      As others have noted, this is not the same as billing by lawyers or other professionals. Your accounting department likely has some back-end reason (whether “we want the information for business analysis” or simply “new system requires it”) for wanting to accurately assign time to various buckets.

    17. Quinalla*

      Yes, your job shouldn’t be having to be 100% billable. They need to set up an general admin bucket to put time to. They should also let you bill in 15 minute increments.

      I have to do time sheets, though for good reason, but my target is 80% billable. We have a few people who have 90-95% billable targets, but even they get a few hours non-billable a week. They need to fix that at minimum for you!

    18. lost academic*

      I bill at my firm and the challenge for billing tasks that are things like emails or short calls or other management yet billable is significant, but it comes with experience (i.e. we don’t have junior staff who are new at billing working on as many things or doing tasks that challenge how to bill) and we have some clients that you must bill in half hour increments, some being OK with 0.25 hours. I’ve been billing my time for the last 15+ years so it’s second nature. You learn to track what you’re doing closely enough and to recognize that not everything needs to be perfectly represented to the time slot and amount that that single email or call took. Maybe today I spent 5 minutes on Project A, but tomorrow I’ll spent 25, etc. I’ll track it and adjust it, rounding down and sometimes rounding a little up. You have to be careful – you don’t want to burn too much time tracking too closely because then you run out of useful time, but you also need to track ofter enough that you’re not missing time (my problem). A lawyer mentioned that it’s accepted that an 8 hour day gets 6-7 billable hours – for a lawyer or an experienced consultant, that’s about right. That’s why you see lawyers and consultants working 50-60 hour weeks. The billable goals are high but also the client deadlines are tight.

    19. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Ugh. We had this. First we were told that we had to log a total of no less than 40 hrs/week, but that there was a code for admin that we could bill to. Then one day, most of us received an email along the lines of “in the last month, you logged X% of your time to admin, but you are only allowed no more than Y, fix this going forward”. I remember it very well that I got dinged for logging 17.25% of my time as admin, with max allowed being 15. I was 2.25% over. If you logged less than 40 hours in a week, you got an email on the Monday of the next week to log the missing hours to a project. We tried to reason with the two managers that were pushing this policy, but no luck. People started coming up with workarounds. My favorite was working on smaller tasks while calling into a staff meeting on the phone, then double-logging my time. We were exempt and none of our time was billable. Apparently the whole idea behind the time logging requirements was to do capacity planning and to calculate the velocity… or something. I’m not good on these terms. One compromise we did get out of them was that we were allowed to log the time spent logging our time. Then one day we had a layoff and both the time-logging managers got caught in it. Those of us that kept our jobs, were called into a meeting the same day, and of course we asked if the time-logging policy was still in effect – do we still have a minimum of 40 hours logged, is there still a 15% admin limit etc. Imagine our surprise when we found out that the department leadership did not know that any of this was happening. We now use the time tracking system to log our work, as god intended. Only tip/hack I have is, keep a notepad or a spreadsheet open as you go through your day, and jot down the tasks you are working on throughout the day; because by the end of the day, or week, you’ll have no recollection of everything you worked on, especially if your typical day consists of juggling multiple assignments, putting out fires etc rather than working on one big thing all week.

    20. Kara S*

      I have to do this for my job as well to track if tasks are on schedule or not (it has its merits and pitfalls but generally I don’t mind it). The general understanding in my industry has always been that you round up or down to the nearest half-hour and generic things like answering emails, going to meetings, etc get recorded on a task like “Misc” or “Other”. If your company won’t create a spot to save that time, then it just gets wrapped up in whatever else you were doing before.

      The idea behind these systems isn’t usually that other work should be done outside of 8 hours if it can’t be recorded anywhere. It’s that either you need a place to record that work or it’s okay to not record it. Hopefully if you explain the issues to your bosses, they’ll figure out how to solve it quickly!

    21. Analyst Editor*

      The strictness of the rules is compensated by the rate of its being ignored.
      If you have an hour of admin work to do every day, it’s “overhead” that all your projects share and should account for, so spread it around.
      Or just be pretty approximate about what you work on. Unless your projects actually bill to an actual client or gramt somewhere, it’s all somewhat imaginary, and certainly can admit you rounding to the nearest half hour.

  3. Should I apply*

    For those who have worked at a start-up, what specific of questions would you recommend asking in interview to get a better sense of the company?

    I am currently job searching, and have an phone interview with a start-up next week. The company isn’t brand new, about 5 yrs old, but as recently as 2019 they were getting VC funding. Previously I have only worked at large companies (fortune 500). I looked back at Alison’s recommended questions for interviewees, which were very helpful, but don’t really my address concerns about the company’s long term strategy and funding. Should I just ask that straight out? Any suggestions for getting a realistic answer, and not the everything’s great sales pitch?

    1. Yay Friday*

      Yes, ask straight out about funding. How much do they have, their plan on getting more etc. I’ve been working for 10 years for a startup that’s surviving on vc funding and dreams. Is there a product that is soon to market? Ask for their plans on that. Have they had to pivot products or ideas? Ask that. If they are 5 years old they should have heard these questions before.

      1. irene adler*

        Yep! Ask.
        Ask about burn rate as well.
        Watch to see if there’s an obvious gap. For example: if they expect to have product ready to market in 1 year’s time and they have $10 million to work with, and their burn rate is $1 million a month, then there’s a 2 month gap there. What’s the plan for funding those 2 months? And, what’s the plan should there be delays with getting product to market or realizing revenues?

        1. Mimi*

          I’ve heard “runway” used to refer to how many weeks/months of operating expenses the company has right now (if all revenue stopped) and it is not okay okay to ask about that, but a Very Good Idea.

    2. Malika*

      I would also ask about the work culture and really get a feel whether you would be able to thrive there. It can be very on, and very unpredictable. That might mean you learn a lot of new skills, or it might mean you crash out with a burnout due to the endless pivoting. Another good tip is to get any salary trajectory in writing. That doesn’t mean they have to be beholden to it, but it means it is clear that if you stay there what your salary development will be. Very important, as they then cannot conveniently forget proposed developments.

    3. MissGirl*

      What is their five-year plan? Do they have any plans to go public? When do they plan on being profitable? Are they looking to grow or to be acquired? They’re may not be right or wrong answers to these questions but they need to show they’ve thought it out long-term.

      Pay hard attention to the product. Do they have a service or good that is necessary in today’s world? Does it make sense? Is it something people will pay money for? Are they poised to grow or is it a one-off product?

    4. OtterB*

      Ask about their growth strategy, both in terms of the product/funding and in terms of how they will handle an increase in the size of the company. The transition from “small startup, do lots of things informally and collaboratively” to “big enough to need some formal structure” can be rough.

    5. irene adler*

      If there are investors, then there’s a prospectus. Try to get your hands on that.

      Also, if they have shareholders, they are required to file with the SEC an annual 10-K report. This is a public document that must accurately portray their financial and business situation. Look for item 1A- Risk Factors under Part 1. This should give you some insights as to how they are doing.

    6. Wendy City*

      Based solely on some of the letters on AAM, I would want to know if they have a dedicated HR department or if it’s just Joe Who Is Buddies With the Founder Who Also Does HR.

      1. Mimi*

        This, yes. And depending on your role and the size of the company, it can also be worthwhile to ask about what sort of external training and support they offer (if you’re the only finance person, for example, how will you keep abreast of developments in the finance world? Have they put any thought into your/the company’s long term growth in specialized fields, or will you be expected to keep up on your own (and is that paid time or personal time)?)

      2. Momma Bear*

        Even if they outsource it (there are a lot of administrivia companies), do they have someone dedicated to this task?

      3. voluptuousfire*

        Ooh, yes! This is important! Do they have a dedicated people/HR person/PEO and/or recruitment team? Or is it just a random person tasked with hiring?

        The first is doing things right. The second, not so much.

    7. Momma Bear*

      Ask about the direction they are going for the future – this might give you insight into if they are going after contracts, if they are planning on just venture capital, if they have a plan to diversify or if you realize they’re putting all their resources into one potentially fragile basket. Plus side is they’ve been around for 5 years, so that’s better than brand new.

      I would also ask about staff growth – if there is nowhere for you to grow, then that could be bad. If they are growing exponentially but don’t have the future projects to keep staff, that could be bad. I would want a company with a reasonable plan for the future, basically.

    8. Ann Furthermore*

      Make sure you have a good understanding of the ownership of the company, in addition to the funding. A couple years ago I took a job with a company owned by an equity firm that was in the business of buying and selling companies. Within 9 months, my company was sold to a very large, well-known software giant, and I was out of a job. That was not what I was lead to believe would happen when I interviewed. It’s my own fault; I should have been more thorough in my research.

      1. Brooklyn*

        This this this. I got a job offer from a small, couple year old, seemingly stable startup. The salary was, as expected, pretty low, but I couldn’t figure out why the equity was so low, given the role and how much the product relied on that role. I then found out that the current CEO owned 25% equity, and the founder and former lead advisor, both of whom are no longer active in the project, also owned 25% each. That left 25% to split between investors and employees, but more importantly, meant that two people not involved in the day to day operations had a controlling stake of the company. Needless to say, I did not accept.

    9. Grim*

      I have worked at many startup and only one was successful and launched their product after 9 years; the 5 others ended in layoffs due to poor planning, new competition or one of the big companies putting us out of business.

      Be sure to ask about current and future workload and hours. Are 12 to 16 hour days cyclic or regularly expected. Weekend work common?

      Just know that whatever the answers you get, circumstances are likely to change once you hired into the company.

    10. NotSoAnon*

      So I was very young and naive when I took my last (and most current job) and had no idea they were a startup. We are now well into our growth phase, very profitable, and have become a much more structured company over the last 5 years.

      Things I wished I would have asked during the interview:
      Do you have a formal HR department? (They did not for 2 years and it caused major issues) If not, how are employee complaints handled and by whom?

      How does the company plan to support and develop employees throughout their time with the company? (They had absolutely no training, documentation, role responsibilities, etc.) How do you plan to reach this goal and by when? *side note this is one of the great things about working for a startup. I was able to essentially build out the department, create a training program, all documentation, role responsibilities. So I learned a ton and moved up really quickly over the last five years.

      Some things I did ask that I found insightful.
      *How involved are the owners of the company and how is the company currently being funded. The product had just gone through a revamp the year I joined and it was their first profitable year.
      * Are there any plans in the near future for the company to go public. – I was not interested in going through an IPO at the time.

      I think startups are so hit/miss and would be leery to work for one again. While I lucked out with my company and they ended up being a great place to work it doesn’t work out.

      If you end up going for it, just know that there is usually so much more work involved than they usually disclose in the interview process and that the work you end up doing might be in drastically different areas than the job positing! I’ve gone from client services, to software support, billing, documentation/client facing marketing design, department management and everything in between. This experience has been invaluable in the long run but it could have been SOOO BAD.

  4. Common Otter*

    I had a boss that was always a bit controlling, but at one point their behaviour got increasingly worse. They started yelling at us, micromanaging even more, giving us rules but telling a few chosen privately that those rules don’t apply to them, telling others about teammate’s performance issues without informing the actual employee about it, snapping if we tried to ask reasons for new rules, and more. I ended up carefully suggesting if they could tell us about the problems rather than giving orders without context so we could understand the situation better and give our input. But I got a lecture on seniority and how “it’d be useless to talk to us as we’d end up with the same solution anyway”.

    After that Boss stopped talking to me, didn’t show up to our catch-ups and eventually just cancelled them, made others deliver me messages, and stopped giving me work even though I kept mentioning that I didn’t have enough work to do. My previous work and eventually my planned position went to another coworker without a word to me. Boss also made “jokingly” comments in front of us on how we shouldn’t get anyone to do the same work I’m doing as that person would “kill themselves” due to how boring it is. Some others also got this kind of behavior after trying to talk to Boss, though my situation was definitely the worst.

    After this went on for several months and I was burning out, Boss suddenly started communicating with me again as if nothing had happened since my skills were needed for a project. Boss still continued to not support me though and I was left to solve problems on my own even when they promised to talk to people. I’ve also continued seeing signs and hearing about controlling and aggressive behavior from Boss towards others now and then.

    That all happened around two years back. I now have another position in another team with a different boss in the same company. I did job hunting, but in the end decided that I like my current work much more than what I could do anywhere else. The problem was just one person that I could now mostly avoid.

    But due to upcoming changes, it’s likely (now ex)Boss will become my other boss in charge of my career development and all that. And as a coincidence, HR reached out to me if I’d be willing to talk more due to one of my answers in an anonymous survey. I’m really torn on what I should do. Back when all was going on, another coworker had gotten a stern talking-to from Boss’s boss (who’s currently away) after going to HR to talk about Boss. That coworker still seemed to trust HR though, they just didn’t want them to escalate it again. If I do talk to someone, I’m worried I’ll face another backlash from Boss if they find out. Also, when some issues have been raised before in group discussions, Boss has claimed that those things never happened. So it might just be my word against theirs. I can talk anonymously, HR doesn’t know who I am yet and I can continue to be anonymous, but it’d probably be easy to guess who I am. I would like to still have the option to happily stay in this company for at least a few years. Do you think I should talk to HR or my current boss? Should I wait until I know for sure who’ll be my new other boss? Or should I stay silent unless those problems start happening again since it’s been a while?

    1. Tex*

      Can you ask for another person to be in charge of your career development? If you don’t want to get into the politics of it, just say that you have worked with ex-Boss in the past and would prefer to have someone new so you can get a fresh perspective/network a bit more.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, this, and before you unblind yourself to HR, be really clear on how they can or cannot protect you from retaliation. You should try to get switched away from Bad Boss regardless, but if you decide to talk further with them, it should be a condition of talking!

        1. Common Otter*

          Thanks, you’re right I should really emphasize that if I do decide to talk. I haven’t had to have conversations like that before so it didn’t cross my mind.

      2. Common Otter*

        Unfortunately it was said that who this other boss is depends on the type of work you do and it’s likely that everyone in my field will have the same one since there isn’t that many of us, so there might not be much choice. But if it turns out we’ll be split up between two or more bosses after all I’ll definitely keep this idea in mind, thanks!

      3. I'm just here for the cats*

        I don’t think saying you would prefer to have someone new for a fresh perspective would work.
        OP I would say talk to HR. To me it sounds like they are aware that there may be a problem with this boss and they want your perspective. This might be the straw that brakes the camel’s back and he no longer is a boss.
        As far as your word against his, isn’t there anything you have? Were the check’ins that were canceled, were they on a calendar (like outlook or google) that you, or HR, can look back at and show he canceled them? Are there others who could vouge for you. It sounds like you may have had it worse but that others had similar problems. Are those people still working for your company? Allison says that it can be better to push back as a group. Could you talk with HR with some of those who experienced this? Even if they weren’t on the receiving end?
        Good luck!

        1. Common Otter*

          Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, that Boss really drove people away and I’m the only one left of those who saw the worst of it. I did have a strong ally back then who really tried their best to make things better and I did talk about possibly talking to someone together, but they ended up giving up before that. And I really can’t blame them. There are still some left who seem to have had at least some kind of negative experiences regarding that Boss though, but I’m not sure if anyone left has actually seen even half of how bad they can be, but maybe I could find some allies there.

          It’s true that there could be small hints like nofications of cancelled meetings and such. But since that boss really liked to separate us and talk to people face-to-face one by one every time we tried to talk in a group setting, there isn’t really much evidence at all. But those are both really good ideas for if I have to talk. I’m starting to lean towards not saying anything as long as things don’t go bad again, but if so happens, the possibility not having to go against it alone does make me feel a bit safer with the idea.

    2. Octopus*

      If your HR is competent at all, and you decline to provide more detail to concerns about anonymity and retaliation, that should give them the information they need to understand that the situation you raised is serious. Or at least, that is what I would hope. If I were you, I would still be job searching, but I understand you’ve decided the tradeoffs are worth it. But your HR hasn’t shown signs of competence so far (given that they didn’t protect your coworker from retaliation), and I would be reluctant to rock the boat in this situation. The boss sounds so egregious, I’d be shocked if they didn’t have an idea what was going on.

      If you’re really set on staying, I’d keep your head down until you’re ready to leave, and give HR all the info they’d need in your exit interview. They’ve had years to act to address the boss and haven’t, and you shouldn’t jeopardize a (potentially already tenuous situation) by confiding in them. You don’t try to put a fire out from inside the house.

      1. Common Otter*

        Thank you, that’s a really good point on how nothing has happened after all this time. I guess I was tempted by the small possibility that I could make the situation much better, but that point made me really think more on how dangerous it could be for me and whether it would actually make a difference. Especially since why the situation turned so bad last time was the fact that I went against that Boss even a little bit.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      How’s your current boss? Would they be of some help to you if you discussed all this with them?

      The most conservative action is to believe that there WILL be backlash and plan accordingly. I don’t know how many new people you can draw in here. By “new” I mean people who were not involved in previous episodes that had poor results. Is there anyone around who seems to be a strong player?

      I used an anonymous forum to report a boss one time. They seemed to be genuinely concerned about what i was saying. The situation changed for the worst and I had to leave, my last message to them was that I gave notice. I felt bad because they seemed to be trying, but in the end I concluded they were too far removed from the workplace to understand the nuances of the setting and they would not see how disastrous those “small” problems were. I could also see that they were not going to move fast enough to bail me out. This was a boss who did many of the things you are talking about here.

      1. Common Otter*

        I’m actually not sure. With my current boss their way of leading and my preferred way of being lead have been much more in line. But we haven’t really talked about anything that could give me an idea how they might react to something like this. And now that I think about it, I’m not confident that they’d have the power to be a strong enough ally to actually make significant difference if something similar would happen again.

        Thanks for sharing your experience! It sounds similar to what I’m afraid of and does make me think whether I should stay silent after all. And, as you said, especially assuming that there’ll be backlash, saying something might not be worth it if the situation stays calm otherwise.

    4. 30 Years in the Biz*

      Otter, I think your boss might be a narcissist – or have narcissist tendencies. Controlling behavior, having favorites, keeping secrets, isolating you, denying you work, and gossiping about you all seem to point to this. Can they also be charming? Hate being questioned/challenged?, good at gaslighting or spinning situations? Those are also signs. You can’t change this person. I think you can expect the same behavior from them when this ex Boss becomes your boss. They didn’t show interest in your career development in the past and they won’t if they become your boss again. HR is not looking into the problem, trying to resolve it, and probably not coaching the ex Boss to behave. A coworker got scolded by ex Boss’s boss after going to HR. The ex Boss, HR, and Boss’s boss “have shown you who they are, believe them”. (Maya Angelou). My opinion is that you can’t happily stay in this company a few years. Could you start looking for a better job and just cope with this surreal situation? As Alison has counseled in the past – try observing from a distance and look at the environment as some strange land/culture with weird practices and behavior. Keep your head down, be neutral in responses to ex Boss if they become your boss again, and do what work you have. Don’t talk to anyone about your issues – HR, colleagues, or current boss. I’m really hopeful that things will get better for you and, if you choose to do it, you find a wonderful new job (using Alison’s tips) and have a happy and successful career. It would be great to find out how things go.

      1. Common Otter*

        Wow you just described that Boss so perfectly I don’t know if this is funny or scary. All those additional things you said are dead on. Thank you for the encouragement! After I got out from their claws that’s exactly what I’ve been doing around that Boss: keeping it professional and polite, laying low, and just trying to enjoy the show. So I think I’ll be keeping it that way at least for now. The people I work with day-to-day are amazing and I’m doing work I absolutely love, so as long as the good sides keep winning by a landslide I’m happy about staying. I also have career goal for the near future and it’s really beneficial for that. But of course if the situation turns sour again I’ll be looking for something else, not worth it destroying my mental health over this job. Unfortunately when all that happened I doubted myself for a really long time on whether it was actually happening and if I was actually in the wrong, but I’ve since learned to understand how bad that Boss is on so many levels, also thanks to all the advice here. I’ll be posting in the open thread again if there are any updates!

        1. 30 Years in the Biz*

          It sounds like you’re handling it really well! FYI, one of the things narcissists do is also make you doubt yourself and your abilities; I’m sorry this happened to you. I am 3 yrs, 3 months away from a job working for a narcissist director. This person did all the things mentioned above to me, called in HR to threaten me (even though I had 9+ years of outstanding reviews, bonuses, stock options), and eventually had me laid off. I ended up depressed and anxious (still receiving treatment) and was out of work for a year. Luckily, thanks to Ask a Manager, I received multiple offers and accepted a job in biotech that’s providing real help to the COVID pandemic. My new job and colleagues are great, with no signs of the major dysfunction at the other company. All the best!!

          1. Common Otter*

            Thanks, this all might actually help me really reframe that person in my head. While I’m of course not armchair diagnosing, these descriptions fit so well that if I keep this in mind it could help me remind myself that it’s all because of what kind of person they are and I – or anyone else – didn’t do something wrong and cause this happen.

            I’m really sorry to hear that but so happy that you’re doing so much better! Knowing what it’s like to work under a person like that, I can’t even begin to imagine how hard it would be when it goes so far that they even turn other people against you and eventually cause you to lose your job. Hope both of us will never have to run into people like that again in our careers!

    5. LTL*

      Not sure if you’ll see this since it’s a later reply.

      Your exboss is an abuser. Please prioritize leaving this workplace (which has allowed your exboss to remain employed, so I am certain that they have other issues).

  5. ThatGirl*

    This was sort of funny to me in light of the discussion earlier this week about the adjunct professor trying to jump the vaccination line. I work for a manufacturing company. But I’m in marketing; I consider that my line of work, and I am fully WFH and even when the office reopens we will be at least part-time WFH going forward.

    Yesterday a company-wide email got sent out urging everyone to get vaccinated when we can, and it stated that because we’re a manufacturing company, we’re all considered 1B Essential Manufacturing Workers. And I fully, 100% support our warehouse and production staff getting in line ASAP; our products cannot be produced or shipped from home. But me? I’m low-risk, young-ish, and work at a computer all day. I would feel super weird trying to jump the line when not everyone in 1A or 1B has been able to get appointments yet.

    1. Gigi*

      Honestly, get the vaccine when you can. That’s what Dr. Fauci is saying and everyone else agrees. You sacrificing an earlier place in line won’t give it to someone who needs it more. The system is broken, but you can take comfort in knowing that your vaccination will contribute to herd immunity that much faster. I am also fairly young and healthy, and just got my first shot this week because I’m in a national security job and I really do need to go back to the office sooner rather than later. As a fully-socialized American woman, I also felt some guilt. We need to get over it. Good luck to you and stay healthy.

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Not only that, but you’ll be adjacent to the “truly” 1B personnel part-time when you go back into the office. So the WfH portion of your observation is illusionary…

        1. ThatGirl*

          No I won’t — our manufacturing plant/warehouse is in a totally separate location from the office, and the office won’t be fully reopen until vaccines are widely available. My office rarely interacts with the plant folks in person.

          1. Momma Bear*

            My sister is kind of in your shoes and I told her to just get vaccinated because even if the contact with others is low/rare, it still happens.

      3. Student Affairs Sally*

        I agree with this. I’m getting my second shot tomorrow because I work in education, even though my role doesn’t currently involve teaching and 90% of my meetings are online now. I’m mostly healthy (mild asthma), and if I didn’t take the opportunity to get it now who knows when I’d be able to. It’s not our fault that the system is broken. I didn’t do anything to jump the line, but with a vaccine offered to me I wasn’t going to turn it down. There’s a good chance if I did, it would have ended up in the trash rather than someone else’s arm. You gotta put your own oxygen mask on first here.

        1. JelloStapler*

          We have been trying to get our governor to include higher education in their plans so we can get a shot. Our students are struggling too. I will take it if offered.

          1. Student Affairs Sally*

            I was really surprised that vaccines were available to my school, because according to what I’ve read it’s only supposed to be K-12 educators that are eligible in my state right now. But it was literally the county health department that contacted us to offer the vaccine and I figure they know what they’re doing. The only thing I can think of is that we’re in a very rural county so there’s probably less demand? I would assume that would mean receiving fewer doses, but who knows. As others have pointed out, the distribution system is a mess. I hope you get the opportunity to get the shot soon!

      4. ThatGirl*

        That’s the thing, though — right now, appointments are still pretty limited. I’m not even sure I’d be able to get one, and if I could, it might well be taking a place from someone. I WILL get vaccinated, sooner rather than later, and certainly before going back to the office. (In fact, the company has said return to office is predicated on the vaccine being widely available.) I just don’t think now is the time to use my very tenuous 1B status.

        2. Observer*

          The whole prioritization thing is a huge mess, and very badly done. Which is not to say that you should not follow the rules or try to actually game the system. It’s to say that how closely you think you match a certain category doesn’t really speak to any moral imperative or how much sense it makes to get the vaccone.

          Also, you say “right now, appointments are still pretty limited. I’m not even sure I’d be able to get one, and if I could, it might well be taking a place from someone.” Except that given the way this has been happening in many places, it quite probable that you STILL would not be taking the shot from someone who meets the official criteria more closely. The system(s) being used are not just badly broken, they inexcusably messed up. Including literally preferring that doses are discarded rather than be given to someone out of the “correct” category. And systems that make it difficult to impossible for people in some supposedly high priority categories to actually make appointments.

        3. whingedrinking*

          I am not an expert, so don’t quote me on this, but based on what I know, it doesn’t work like that.
          Think of it like fighting a forest fire. Ideally, you’d dump water all over the entire area that was on fire and the surrounding area all at once. But since that’s not possible, you target your efforts to where they’ll do the most good – say by dividing up the forest on a grid and scaling the resources you send to each section based on how bad the situation is there. You don’t look at each tree within those areas to decide if it “counts” – the amount of resources you’d save by targeting individuals would be completely swallowed up by the logistical nightmare of that particular census-taking, and time is just as important as material in this kind of situation.
          Also, it’s not zer0-sum. When you’re dealing with hundreds of thousands of individuals, one or two doses – or even a hundred doses – won’t make that much difference in logistics either way. If a firefighter decides not to hose down one tree in a high-risk area, that doesn’t mean the water immediately goes to another tree that might need it more but is in a lower-risk area.
          With a vaccine, this is even more the case, because the goal is to get everybody vaccinated in the end. If you could only put out a forest fire by making sure 90+% of all the trees got 10 litres of water each, we wouldn’t say to send repeated missions of firefighters and water bombers carefully choosing the most at-risk trees each time. You’d send them to the most at-risk areas and tell them to get as many trees as possible while they’re there. You have to balance effectiveness with efficiency.
          I’ll repeat: *the goal is to get everyone vaccinated*. If you get vaccinated, you’re helping others, not hurting them. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

      5. TechServLib*

        Agree 100% with Gigi! Get the shot when you can. However, there are ways of getting it that are more ethically icky than others. In my area there’s been a lot of high-income people snagging spots in low-income areas because higher income folks tend to have more free time and internet access to get appointments and our state doesn’t limit availability by area. So maybe try to avoid using tactics like that to get a vaccine. If you have the time and want to do something to assuage your guilt, a lot of states have programs where you can volunteer to help elderly or high-risk people who don’t have internet access or tech skills make vaccine appointments. But if that’s not in the card for you, just get the vaccine when you can and encourage others to do the same!

      6. Dave*

        I think there is wisdom in taking a dose that would go to waste like the doctors who passed out the vaccines that were going to go bad when stuck in winter traffic. I also think there is wisdom in letter people who are on the front lines and struggling to get an appointment to take the early slots. When the process stabilizes sure those of us that are WFH and low risk should get in line at that point. In the meantime I can lay low and let the people who are at higher risk and have to interact with people in person from their job go first.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Yes, this is how I feel. If I got randomly offered one, I’d take it, but for now I’m happy to let others go first.

          1. Natalien*

            I think that makes sense, if getting an appointment would require a bunch of effort on your part you’re not obligated to do so. But if it’s offered at some point, go ahead and get it!

        2. Product Person*

          Yes, this. Just because we can (potentially due to ill-defined rules), it doesn’t mean we should because there are still tons of emergency workers, immunocompromised, or K-12 teachers waiting to get vaccinated, and waiting can help expedite their immunization.

          I know someone who took her mother to be vaccinated. She is 62, not yet qualified, and the doctor offered to give her a dose too. After confirming it wasn’t a dose about to expire, and that it could go to a more deserving person, she refused. Her mother doesn’t live with her and she’s working from home. I applaud her and you, ThatGirl. I’ll get the vaccine when it’s my turn, which isn’t now since I can work from home and avoid getting exposed to the virus, while emergency workers can’t.

          I’m pre-registered, and if someone calls me saying there are doses are about to expire and they need ANYONE who can be there quickly, then I won’t think twice.

    2. useitall*

      I volunteer at vaccine clinics and my advice is to make your appointment/show up at the end of the day. There is always one last vial at the end of the day that they need to use up and they don’t want to throw away. If you show up at the very end of the day, you can get a “leftover” dose if they have it but make it clear that they shouldn’t open a vial just for you. We are often going around to businesses near our clinic at the end of the day saying “we have 3 doses left over, who needs a vaccine?”

      1. I edit everything*

        I’ve been curious: In situations like that, where you have leftover doses to give people (or the situation with the health workers stuck in a traffic jam with vaccine about to expire), how do those people get their second dose? My mom got her first dose a couple weeks ago, and was automatically assigned a time/day for her second, but what about the people who are in the right place at the right time, rather than part of an organized clinic?

          1. DragoCucina*

            Yes. My husband is volunteering to vaccinate people (retired nurse). Yesterday they had one that would have had to been destroyed. He called me and I could get there as they were closing. I received a card with the date to get the second vaccination. No special treatment and no waste.

            In higher education it’s been an issue that libraries have been required to stay open and staffed even if all classes are remote. In some states academic librarians, even dealing daily with the students and public, are classified as 1C.

        2. Hooray Spreadsheets*

          I got my first dose as a leftover when a friend running a vaccine clinic had some at the end of the day that were going to expire, no one else at the clinic/nearby who needed or wanted one, and I was the first one who answered the phone and was available in time. I was told that I’ll be allowed an appointment at the appropriate time to get my second dose.

      2. Gutenberg*

        We live very close to a big vaccination site. The word went out on a neighborhood email group that 65+ could take their chances and maybe get extras by showing up during the last hour. We are 68 and 66 so we went there the following afternoon and got lucky! There were 150 extras that day and volunteers were making phone calls to people in need, plus getting vaccinated themselves. That afternoon only, it was open to anyone 18+ and staff said they would not close until all were given.
        Since then, I’ve seen local media reports that any extras throughout this very large metro area will instead be taken to the 24 hour site on the opposite side of town.

    3. Here For It*

      If you prefer to wait to get vaccinated by all means wait, but you’re not jumping the line if you go ahead now. You’ve just been told that it’s your turn, and we all benefit from everyone getting vaccinated as soon as they are able to. The “jump the line” language here risks shaming people who do get vaccinated when eligible, which should be cause for celebration!

      1. ThatGirl*

        I would never shame anyone for getting vaccinated — but to me, I’m not in 1B, that’s my point. It feels only slightly less icky than that spin instructor claiming she was a teacher. Supply should increase soon, and at that point, I’ll start trying for an appointment.

        1. Octopus*

          I agree with you, ThatGirl. The vaccinations should be given out based on actual ROLE, not the company/industry you work in. (I’m in a similar boat, WFH in a critical industry where my ROLE is not essential). Save the doses for someone who is actually frontline. Given how hard it is to get appointments in most places, the concern that you’d take the dose from someone higher risk is legitimate. We’re not talking about a dose that’s about to expire but vaccine appointments that could go to someone else.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I am considered essential. I work alone and pretty much can go days without seeing anyone. I live in an area where the stats are low and always have been. I am in no rush. I will just continue using extra care and let others who want it/need it go first. This is because I see others going through a lot worse than what I have here.
            OP, just from watching the news, it appears like the dam will break and there will be more and more vaccines available. If you want yours now, then you should go. If you don’t mind waiting, then wait. Try not to over think it as I tend to believe we are nearing the downhill side of this problem and your question of go/wait will probably only mean to a very short difference in timing. The difference being some weeks is not worth a ton of brain space. If you feel guilty about taking it from others, it could be in part that is because you feel you are safer than others. I do, too. It’s okay to go. And it’s okay to wait. Both answers are acceptable.

          2. Malarkey01*

            The way things “should” work and the way things “are” working (and honestly the most efficient way to get vaccines in arms) is not to overly complicate tiers. Taking an appointment today when it has been legitimately offered or waiting until next month will still take an appointment slot and there are going to be a lot of people in those later tiers that need it ASAP and appointments will be difficult for awhile.

            Plus your job has been “counted” in your states tier (the know how many people work in education, agriculture, manufacturing, healthcare, etc). When your state says step up we’re ready for YOU, step up quickly and efficiently otherwise it’s a delay to everyone— Doesn’t it drive you crazy when we’re all suppose to zipper merge when driving out of a parking area following a big event and then two cars get into the “oh you go, oh no go right ahead, oh no after you” back and forth dance while everyone behind them is like JUST GO You’re holding up the line…that’s this.

          3. pancakes*

            Think of the training, staffing, and hours of labor that would be required to categorize people by role, though. I can certainly see the appeal of doing it that way, but it’s not necessarily practical, and in any case isn’t the approach being taken.

      2. Coenobita*

        I agree. Basically: if you are offered the vaccine (according to the rollout procedures where you are), you are not jumping the line.

        I am also a relatively low risk person whose day job is fully WFH, but I’ve gotten both doses now because I volunteer one day a week at a vaccine clinic (in operations – I don’t have a clinical/healthcare background). I also felt like I didn’t deserve the vaccine and honestly I still kinda feel that way, but I recognize that’s my own issue to work through and it was better for public health for me to take the vaccine when offered.

        Lots of us have strong feelings about vaccine rollout, prioritization, etc. but (as with many things) the answer to that is advocacy, collective action, and systems change – not putting your own health at risk.

        1. ThatGirl*

          That’s the thing, though – my health is not really at risk. I rarely go anywhere, I live in a pretty mask-compliant area, I don’t have any kids, I’m not a caretaker for any high-risk people, and I’m almost certain to be vaccinated before I start working in an office again.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Then, wait?

            I am in a similar setting where I am very much aware that others have it far worse than I do. I am not feeling any hardship by waiting.

            The thing is, if you actually want the vaccine asap, then you should just go get it. You are probably only talking about a difference of a some weeks anyway.

            1. ThatGirl*

              Yeah, I’m planning to wait! I’m just a little bemused by people seemingly insisting I need to go sign up now! asap! and almost implying I’m being selfish by waiting?! Someone said the state has allocated doses based on info my company has provided to them … I don’t think that’s true. I’m in Illinois and while we’re doing OK on distribution, things are not running smoothly yet. I know that Chicago and Cook County are opting to NOT move to 1C yet because they don’t have enough doses for all the 1B folks. I will gladly start looking for an appointment in, say, March.

              1. KeepIt*

                I’m not sure why you wanted others input if you’ve already made up your mind, but to reiterate it’s not “line jumping” if you take the vaccine when it’s offered to you

                1. ThatGirl*

                  I actually didn’t ask for advice? I was posting to share the email that my company sent out and how I felt about it. I mean, I obviously can’t stop people from giving me advice, but …

                2. Annie Moose*

                  @ThatGirl – Alison has actually asked people to not do this, simply posting something to share without wanting responses. The open threads are all about discussion, after all! Sometimes that means discussion goes in ways we don’t anticipate (I’ve been there!!) but it is what it is.

              2. RagingADHD*

                If you’re “bemused” by people having entirely different perspectives on the items you post for discussion, then perhaps you’d be happier with a medium where you control the comments yourself.

                1. ThatGirl*

                  That’s needlessly antagonistic. I’m happy for other opinions, I just don’t need folks telling me my personal choice to not bend the truth is wrong somehow. I actually looked at the criteria to register on my county’s health dept website; I would have to verify that I’m an essential worker. And I’m just not, regardless of what kind of company I work for.

                2. pancakes*

                  It appears that you categorically are regarded as an essential worker, because this is categorized by employer and not by role. You may not feel this is appropriate but it’s nonetheless how your state has organized things. You said it yourself in your first post: “because we’re a manufacturing company, we’re all considered 1B Essential Manufacturing Workers.” If anyone is bending the rules it is you, to accommodate your discomfort with this designation.

          2. Sue*

            I appreciate your attitude. My spouse and I are both over 65 and essential workers. Neither of us has been able to find an appointment. Meanwhile, healthy friends under 65, their 30 something kids, people from out of town all have been successfully vaccinated here. I’m ok but it’s hard to wait and watch. I’m not saying not to get it, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

            1. ThatGirl*

              My mom and her husband have been vaccinated, thanks to a moment of serendipity where they were both eligible thanks to mom being a hospital volunteer. My dad and stepmom on the other hand have had a ton of trouble finding appointments. It’s really all over the place. But in my area I am still seeing headlines about frustrated seniors, so I really do want to give them a chance first.

              1. Qwerty*

                Knowing your area is really important. I’d recommend looking at waitlists (so the dose doesn’t go to waste) or paying attention to when it sounds like they’ll be moving onto the next phase and getting in while the appointments are easier to get.

                Right now its just easier to categorize people based on companies/industry rather than getting nitpicky about roles, so some people are unexpectedly eligible while others are unexpectedly excluded.

          3. sequined histories*

            You are at risk. It may be a low risk, but don’t kid yourself. You could get this and suffer lifelong damage to your heart and lungs. You also don’t know for sure when or if you will have access to this vaccine.

            It’s commendable that you would feel guilty getting the vaccine earlier than other people who are more vulnerable, but you also have no way to pass on “your” dose to someone “more worthy”; it may well go to someone less at risk than you.

            Most of us—in one respect or another—have unfair advantages in life. It would be a better world if we all had more mental clarity and humility about our unfair advantages, as it would motivate us to do more to make the world a fairer place.

            You are thinking that going to the back of the line is a way to make the world a tiny bit fairer, but that’s not actually the case in this situation. You are considering gambling your life for a gesture that feels morally right but could easily be morally meaningless.

            This is not the test of character—are simple act of common sense—that you think it is.

            1. ThatGirl*

              LOL OK just for the record I don’t think I’m some sort of saint or anything, or that this is a test of character. It’s simply my personal feelings about it based on my actual job, my home situation, etc., etc. I’m not gambling my life — I’m just waiting a few weeks to look for a vaccine appointment. There IS no “my” dose — there are simply limited doses that are being doled out to whomever signs up for an appointment that day.

              1. sequined histories*

                I don’t think you’re claiming to be saint! I think you’re just trying to do the right thing—or the thing that makes the most sense to you in the context of the situation.

                I do think you’re gambling your life, though. I mean, statistically, it’s a gamble you’ll probably win, but still, there are younger people who die, suffer from “long” COVID, etcetera.

                I live in a city that had a high number (700+) of confirmed infections in the spring and fully 8% of those people died. Now, my city’s population is especially vulnerable due to the effects of poverty and racism. My upstairs neighbor was in a coma and we didn’t hear from him for 5 months and honestly thought he had died. I certainly support systemic initiatives to favor the most vulnerable. Absolutely. I would never “jump the line” by not following the roll-out rules in my locality or condone anyone else doing so.

                But I would also strongly encourage anyone who asked my advice to get the vaccine as soon as they are eligible and can secure an appointment. Internationally delaying taking the vaccine does—objectively speaking—put your life at risk, even if you believe that the level of risk negligible and/or acceptable you.

                As for the difference in wait times being only a matter of a few weeks: from your mouth to God’s ears.

          4. pancakes*

            Many people who fit this description pass the virus along asymptomatically. Whether you are at risk of severe illness if infected or not, all of us who aren’t yet vaccinated are a risk as potential carriers.

              1. pancakes*

                Yes, and that’s one of the reasons why the guidance is to continue wearing a mask. My understanding is that the viral load tends to be lower, though, resulting in less severe illness for the vaccinated person and people they might infect.

    4. ghostlight*

      A lot of hospitals are working this way too. I have friends who work in philanthropy and development at hospitals (completely remotely), and they were given vaccines after the front-line workers but before the general public. I would get it when you can. The vaccine distribution schedule isn’t perfect, but I wouldn’t fault you for getting it when you can.

      1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        My partner works for a hospital in Chicago and that’s how his employer did it. He works in the billing department and has been 100% WFH since March, but he went in and got vaccinated as soon as appointments were available for non-frontline employees. (He is also considered higher-risk for a couple reasons, so I’m glad he was able to get it done early.)

        My mom got her first dose this week and my grandma got her second dose today, so that was good. I, however, am much lower on the priority list – I’m in the general public tier. I _might_ be able to qualify in 1C based on BMI, but I don’t feel like finding out. Based on sheer numbers of people in the state (plus I wouldn’t be surprised if a vaccine approved for kids becomes available by the time they get to group 2), I’m not expecting to be able to get it before October at the very earliest – if not the beginning of next year. However, I’ve read production and distribution are ramping up enough that vaccines should be available to the general public by July. So we’ll see!

        1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

          Of course, I’d take one if directly offered to me, but I’m not going to aggressively try before it’s my turn.

    5. Cat Tree*

      For each person who gets the vaccine, that’s a 95% chance of keeping someone out of an ICU. By protecting yourself you are protecting others too. That’s one more hospital bed and healthcare workers available to someone who needs for non-Covid reasons.

      Also, there’s really no such thing as low risk when it comes to Covid. There’s only high risk and very high risk. If the vaccine is available to you, try not to feel bad getting it.

    6. RagingADHD*

      The rollout will go a lot faster if everyone just takes their turn when it comes.

      The categories don’t exist to provide absolute “fairness” because that is impossible to achieve if it even exists. It’s a question of logistics: Get everybody vaccinated ASAP.

      Don’t hold up the process quibbling.

    7. Junior Dev*

      Maybe unpopular opinion (and specific to the US since I live here); I’m not happy with framing “someone getting or trying to get the vaccine early when maybe they could wait” as “jumping the line” or “cheating.” I am explicitly not talking about people who lie about what their job is, or bribe someone, or use family connections to get vaccinated. I’m talking about people who have been deemed eligible by the standards of the state they live in but maybe they’re at lower risk, they just happen to be in some category that puts them at a higher priority. This includes the letter writer yesterday.

      I know someone who works in public health and does work with the public and only didn’t get the vaccine because he was informed about it by an email that gave him only a few hours to go and sign up and by the time he tried it was too late. He was mad at my friend/his roommate, who works in medical research but doesn’t do patient care, for getting the vaccine first. The thing is, my friend works for a large research hospital with its own distribution system and so the only reason she got it first was logistics. It’s not like she could have chosen to give her doses to him.

      The whole vaccine distribution campaign has been pretty chaotic because of how hard it is to transport and store the vaccine and the sheer scale of trying to vaccinate everyone in the US when supplies are limited. There have been cases where a freezer broke or some similar thing happened and people had to rush to get anyone vaccinated on a first come first serve basis. Sometimes it works out fine, but recently a doctor who tried to make the best of such a situation was fired for “stealing” a vial of the vaccine that would have gone bad had he not found people to take it.

      The goal is to get shots into arms. Ideally we get them to doctors and other healthcare workers first, then to other vulnerable groups or groups of people more likely to spread the virus. But we don’t live in an ideal world, we live in one where logistics problems make it very hard to get everyone vaccinated according to plan. It’s really jarring to see some people deriding antivaxxers in one sentence and then putting down people who try to legitimately get the vaccine in the next; this is not a good time and place for gatekeeping or trying to rank “who deserves it” more, and while it’s good to prioritize medical workers and other public-facing people *by default,* there are just gonna be a ton of people who don’t neatly fit into a category and in my opinion those people should get their vaccine as soon as their state’s system says they can. Let’s not shame them for it, and definitely let’s not shame people who ask questions about their status without even taking action (which I think yesterday’s headline did). Ultimately the goal is to get everyone (who can be) vaccinated and any person getting the vaccine is putting us one step closer to that goal.

    8. KeepIt*

      Get the vaccination whenever you’re eligible too. From what I’ve read and heard, passing on your turn may seem noble but the vaccine doses have a limited shelf life and they really just want to get them into as many people as they can. If you’re eligible, you’re eligible. Don’t let people try to bully you or assign some sort of moral value on whether you get the vaccine when you’re told you’re allowed to!

    9. Merci Dee*

      My situation is sort of similar to yours — I, too, work in a manufacturing facility but am in the accounting department. Because of the nature of the industry that I work for and the heavy security for our computer systems, working from home is not an option for anyone in our facility, so I have been coming in to work throughout the pandemic. Additionally, it’s commonplace for managers/team leaders from the production floor to come into the administrative office, and the vast majority of us are in a cube farm in the main office area (thankfully, our cubes are larger than the 6-feet social distance recommendation and the walls are taller than our heads when we’re seated, but we’re still in cubes in one large room). Our company has strongly urged everyone in the facility to get vaccinated, and is giving out an extra day of vacation to those who bring in their vaccination card with information for both injections. Our line workers are arranged into three shifts that allow some time either in the morning or in the afternoon for production folks to get vaccinated, but management has been allowing the 8-5 office workers to leave during the day for a couple of local walk-in/drive-thru clinics that have been happening in towns around us without requiring us to use vacation time while we’re away. I think that, by this point in the week, most all of us in the main admin office have received our first vaccine doses, and are just waiting for the appointments for our second doses. I feel like our company has been doing all that it can to make the vaccination process as easy for us as possible, and this attitude follows on some other changes around the plant that management made with employee safety in mind over the last year.

      1. OyHiOh*

        These are the kind of incentives that will help encourage people to get vaccinated. Good for your company. Making it as easy as possible to go out and get your shots, and essentially paying for the time you spend at a clinic, is the way to go.

        1. Merci Dee*

          Yeah, a lot of people were pleased to hear that they weren’t going to make us use leave to get vaccinated.

          Most of the walk-in/drive-thru clinics in our area this week have been first-come, first-served so folks would just generally show up and wait in line for a shot, hoping that the supply for the day didn’t run out before they got their chance. I was extremely lucky to find an urgent care clinic in a city about 50 minutes away from my home that was doing vaccines by appointment, and was able to get a good time slot back on Monday afternoon. My work is way out on the west side of the city where I live, and the urgent care I was visiting was out past the east side of my city, and my home is less than 2 minutes off the interstate I would have to drive between the two locations. Knowing this, I decided to go ahead and use half a day vacation so that I could take my daughter with me (she sat in the car for the duration of my appointment) and then grab a late lunch on the way home. We were the only two customers in the lunch spot we chose at 2:45, so social distancing was a breeze. And by the time we got home, it was about 4:30. So taking the half-day turned out to be the right decision. And my daughter and I are looking forward to doing it again when I go for the second injection next month. So I’m basically getting a vacation day to replace the two half-days I’m taking to get the vaccine. I’m okay with using a day to get a day, and regard myself as coming out ahead since I get two Monday late-lunch dates with my daughter, as well. :)

      2. The Other Dawn*

        We got an email last night stating we’ll get an extra day of PTO if we bring in proof of vaccination, or a letter from the doctor stating why we can’t get it. I’m pretty happy about that and hope it encourages many more colleagues to get vaccinated; it’s a great incentive in my opinion.

        1. Merci Dee*

          That’s interesting. The email from our leadership only mentioned an extra day if we had proof of two injections administered by the same provider. The email didn’t mention anything about provisions for people who are medically unable to vaccinate. Maybe that’s something that I should bring up with them.

    10. LDF*

      I don’t disagree with other comments exactly but just because your company says you’re eligible doesn’t mean your vaccinating authorities will agree.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah. As far as I’ve heard, nobody is checking exactly — you just have to fill out the form when you register for an appointment — but I suspect if I called the health dept and gave them details they might encourage me to wait. (I’m not going to do that, just an example.)

    11. vaccination consternation*

      I’m going to deviate from what others have said. I think what your company is doing is icky–most places that employ essential workers don’t have 100% essential staff, and should not try to treat all staff as such when it comes to prioritization. But your company is far from alone in trying to claim all its staff as essential. I used to work for a hospital system that started offering vaccines to employees working remotely once all frontline health care workers were vaccinated instead of to high risk patients, which I think is messed up. There are a lot of jobs where it would be *ideal* to return to the office sooner so essential functions can be better supported, and I’ve seen people in that position try to argue as to why they should get earlier access, but the reality is that when there are so few doses available, vaccinating anyone who has the ability to work from home and is lower medical risk comes at the expense of other people who absolutely must work in person and/or is at high medical risk. That is the harsh reality of having such a limited supply and high demand.

      That said…you are not responsible for your company trying to prioritize everyone, and I think the choice to get it now or wait is entirely up to you, so long as your local government doesn’t push back against your company. I posted before about being vaccinated in 1A instead of 1C due to poor communication about how my role was classified. I have a lot of contact with the public and cannot work from home, but I’m also in my 20s and healthy, and may be fielding an offer from a remote job soon, which I didn’t know about when I got my first dose. A lot of people fall into the trap of dichotomous thinking that if they get the vaccine before they should, they are automatically taking a spot away from someone more vulnerable. Had I not gotten vaccinated, it maybe would have gone to a grocery store worker in their 60s with emphysema or an 85 year old retiree, but it also maybe could have gone to waste, or to someone who just happened to be shopping in that drug store that day, or to a healthy remote worker at an essential company like yourself. There is no way of knowing who that dose would have gone to if it weren’t me, and dwelling on that benefits no one.

      tl;dr what your company is doing is wrong, but I think ethically whether you choose to get vaccinated now or later is up to you and both are okay. Vaccination rollout has been so bungled and inequitable that the ethics behind prioritization is convoluted, but you were not responsible for designing these systems. At the end of the day, the more doses administered the better for the population as a whole.

      1. Chestnut Mare*

        It may not be the company’s doing; the providers administering the vaccine may be making the decision to vaccinate everyone, whether they are frontline staff or not.

        1. ThatGirl*

          No, this was specifically my company sending out an email specifically telling us we fit into this distribution group because we’re a manufacturing company — it has nothing to do with providers, who seem to be just taking people at their word.

        2. vaccination consternation*

          Most distribution sites are turning people away without appointments, but relying on the honor system for people to be truthful answering screening questions when they register for an appointment. I can’t speak for everywhere of course, but I think many vaccination sites do have rules on who they are and aren’t allowed to vaccinate (and contingency plans for leftover doses) but lack the capacity to verify. I was told to bring my work ID which was never checked, and my ID was checked at my second dose but not my first.

          My company is split between essential employees and administrative staff. They sent a very clear email to staff encouraging essential workers to get vaccinated ASAP and administrative staff to get vaccinated when they’d otherwise be eligible based on age, pre-existing conditions and state (I live in an area where many people commute from the suburbs out-of-state). I’m glad my company issued those guidelines, but again yours is far from the only one that’s trying to claim everyone as essential when they’re not…

    12. Me*

      Hey there – I work in emergency management for a county and am actively involved vaccine stuff.

      Don’t feel weird please. The priority groups are not meant to be super nitpicky because we just don’t want to get that in the weeds. There are people in the medical community who don’t see or work with patients. But they still qualified for a vaccine. The same is going to happen with the occupation groups and we know that. It’s not a good use of our time and resources to be over-specific.

      Second as far as there being people in other priority groups who haven’t gotten vaccines yet, every time we open a clinic there are going to be people in 1a or 1 b who cannot take those slots for whatever reason such as scheduling conflicts or transportation issues. If we’ve moved on to offering to additional priority groups it’s because we are not able to consistently fill with who is left in the earlier priority groups. So yes, even though there are still people who haven’t been vaccinated in those groups, it’s more because a slot hasn’t worked fro them vs not being offered. That’s an over simplification a bit but captures the gist of it.

      I hope that helps but you at ease.

    13. Cormorannt*

      I’m in a similar boat. I’m in engineering at a manufacturing company. I haven’t received any communication (yet) from our employer to get vaccinated. We are back in the office, but I do have my own individual office and I don’t have to be out on the manufacturing floor. I am otherwise very low-risk. I hadn’t tried to get a vaccine appointment yet, because like you, I don’t really think I’m what the public health authorities mean when they say “manufacturing workers”. I don’t think I’d be turned away, but I don’t feel right about it. This thread is interesting because a lot of people are leaning the other way. Is the calculus different because I am no longer working from home?

      1. ThatGirl*

        Is the calculus different because you’re no longer working from home? I’d say slightly. But since you have your own office, not dramatically. If I was told I needed to be back in the office in two weeks, say, or even six weeks, I’d probably be actively looking for appointments right now. But I also won’t have my own office.

        (My husband has been going in to his office two days a week since the fall, but he has his own office, there are only 3 people there at a time, and nobody else is coming in, so he is also waiting a bit.)

    14. Anonymous for this one*

      I got a call about the vaccine yesterday because I’m apparently just fat enough now to qualify as obese, which puts me into whatever category my state is working through. I’m middle-aged, work from home (kids in school every day, though), and otherwise healthy… I think I’m going to wait. I have 70-year-old relatives still waiting, so don’t feel right about it.

      1. Natalie*

        If you’re able to call back I would really encourage you to take the appointment, since it’s being offered! You skipping it doesn’t actually make your relatives waiting better or fairer or worthwhile, it reduces the resource burden for everyone (by lowering your chance of having serious illness), and there’s no reason to think it’s going to be easy for you to get an appointment later whenever you decide you’re ready.

        “In this together” doesn’t mean everyone waiting until someone else goes first. Just get the shot.

      2. LDF*

        I think it’s skeevy to lie to get an appointment ahead of time. But you aren’t lying explicitly or by omission. You qualify and therefore if you give up your change it’s not going to go to anyone more “deserving”.

    15. Hiring Mgr*

      Everything I’ve read says take it if you have the opportunity. My state (Mass.) just announced they’re giving vaccines to anyone who accompanies someone over 75 to their vacc appointment. So healthy me in my 40s will be getting one when I drive my mom to her appt.

    16. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Just because you can sign up doesn’t mean that you’ll get an appointment in the near future. I’m considered 1b for health reasons, and in my area they’re still processing people who signed up on the website in early Jan (ours says “you signed up on 2/xx/21, we are currently scheduling those that signed up on 1/xx/21”). So unless your state/area is super fast, all your just doing is putting your name on a waiting list to eventually be contacted to make an appointment.

      So you can either join the waitlist now, or just wait. Either way, everyone else who signed up before you are still going to get processed before you.

    17. The Other Dawn*

      You’re not jumping the line. You’re in group 1B so if you want the vaccination, just get it and don’t worry about it.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      Chiming in: I’m in a similar boat (manufacturing but not turning wrenches department) only I’m 100% Working in the Office. I plan to get it as soon as possible not just because I “technically” qualify, but because many of the “actual” manufacturers at our company are still in the “it’s just the flu, man” mind-set. Either on the large scale or the small, I figure it’s always better to be one of the herd.
      Sadly, where I am (Washington state), the phase finder splits the hair between “essential industry where you can’t be more than 6′ from someone else” and “essential industry where you can” so I’m 1D rather than 1B.
      Good luck!

    19. Nope.*

      You being vaccinated helps others immensely. It is everyone’s best interest to take it the minute it’s offered to you. Please do so. This is not line jumping.

    20. Arctic*

      We are never going to reach vaccination rates we need if people keep doing stupid things like this. Your vaccine dose is more likely to go into the trash than to someone else who needs.

      This whole line of thought is so counter to public health measures.

      Do what you want but your choice is no different than anti-vaxxers refusing to get it from a public health standpoint.

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        Name-calling is against the commenting guidelines. But more to your point, the extremely high demand for vaccines means that they’re actually more likely to go into someone’s arm than be thrown away, with the logistical kinks that lead to expirations being somewhat unpredictable. OP couldn’t just request the “soon to expire” dose.

        With that said, I think a commenter above described it best, that vaccine eligibility requirements can’t go too far into the weeds without slowing down the process. (We tried that in CA, and it didn’t work.) In other words, OP, you’re likely being included in “manufacturing” because trying to tease out which individuals are specifically at highest risk roles would slow down the process to the point of being more detrimental than the occasional shot going to someone who isn’t frontline/highrisk. Broad strokes to decide who’s who for the sake of expediency. Almost everyone’s gotta get the shot sooner or later.

        But I actually sympathize with your dilemma, given what you’ve described and how (on a national level) the vaccine availability is still scare. Don’t have any advice, just wanted to send some e-support.

  6. Kramerica Industries*

    Thinking about work/life balance, how much would you need to make to justify working 1-2 hours more per day than your current standard?

    I know this varies based on location and personal preference, but I’m curious about how people take this into account when looking at promotions, especially getting into higher levels that require more stress and (salaried) overtime.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      From a math perspective, if a job is taking you from an 8 hour day to a 10 hour day, it should be at least a 25% raise. From a personal perspective? It would have to be a pretty big bump or also come with some crazy good perks. Now that I’ve finally attained really good work-life balance, it would take a lot to make me give that up.

      1. Cassidy*

        >Now that I’ve finally attained really good work-life balance, it would take a lot to make me give that up.

        Precisely. Well put.

      2. Picard*

        Yep, this. I used to run my own business and basically worked 24/7. I was always on. Got tired of it and took a job working for the man. Now I get full benefits including health care and retirement. I usually work 8-9 hour days, with a 30-60 minute break for lunch. I’ve been known to do a 12 hour day if needed but those happen maybe once a month? I gross about the same $ as before but the company pays the FICA stuff so my per hour rate has gone up dramatically. You would be hard pressed to have me go back.

    2. Louise*

      If I was going to work more I would hope I was getting paid more so my family finances would be a big question. My partner was able to pick up additional overtime every week for awhile now and the trade off is we have more money, but I also have had to pickup more household responsibilities. It has also given us more flexibility in COVID shopping to splurge on home delivery / pickup options that would be tougher without the extra income.
      Also can you flex the additional time to work for you? Personally if I have to work more I would rather wake up earlier and start then getting done at 7pm. Or can you take longer breaks during the day if you need to run an errand?
      Also if my current job was bad enough better quality of work life might make it work it.

    3. Ama*

      Honestly, for me, there is no amount of money that would be worth working more than I currently do. I am exempt and salaried — my work generally allows me to put in 8 hour days but I do on occasion need to do longer ones (in the Before Times I often worked events that would have me putting in a few 12-16 hour days in a row, these days I might occasionally do an extra hour or two once in a while if I’m in the middle of a time-sensitive project). I am an Associate Director at my employer so I do make decent money even though I’m in a nonprofit. Most of the time I don’t check work email outside of office hours (there are a couple of times a year when I’m doing something time-sensitive and it’s less stressful to spot problems as soon as they come up). Because we’re still work from home and my work phone is now forwarded to my cell, I will sometimes temporarily block my work number on the weekends and vacations so I don’t even have to see it pop up (although to be fair, 80% of the calls to my work number are telemarketers or unsolicited sales calls).

      I’ve actually told my CEO before (when she mentioned she thought I could be a nonprofit CEO or ED myself someday) that I’m not interested in moving much higher (maybe Director level at most) because I know from experience that I need to be able to get a total break from my job and I have no interest in being at the beck and call of Board members and major donors even on my ostensible vacation the way that she is.

    4. Web Crawler*

      Nope nope nope. I make enough money to support me and my partner and also have money in savings. I don’t think there would be a number that could make me work more than that.

      I also have daily chronic pain, and work is already at the outer limits of what I can manage. If I worked more, I’d burn out hard in a month.

    5. I edit everything*

      While I’d like a salary bump, my more important request would be a significant bump in PTO. Working longer days takes time away from my family, so offset that with more vacation, where I can really focus on quality time.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My employer sometimes offers me an option to do up to 10 hours a week in a secondary role, paid hourly at approximately 2/3 of what my normal-job hourly rate would be. When they offer that option, I jump on it, though I usually continue to work my 40 hours during the week and the secondary role on weekends (because I wake up stupid early anyway). The rate on the secondary role is the same that I was making in that role when it was my full-time job, prior to the promotion that put me in my current job (I’ve gotten five years of pay raises in my primary job, but the secondary job isn’t eligible for annual raises).

      Basically, I’m very money-driven, so if they offer me the opportunity to do something that I like and/or am good at, in exchange for reasonable pay, I’ll probably do it. But per discussion with my boss, I don’t work over my normal 40 hours per week unless there’s either extra pay, or a specific reason for the extra hours that will accomplish something. (My normal job is one of those where the work never runs out, so I COULD five or ten extra hours a week on my regular tasks, but it won’t functionally change the workload for anybody, but if there’s a special project that has to be worked and completed posthaste, that’s a different story.)

    7. OtterB*

      I’m within a few years of retirement and I don’t think I have 1-2 hours more per day in me. Before that, I had two kids. They are young adults now, but the younger has intellectual disabilities and still needs support, so I could not have taken a role that would take away the time and flexibility I needed to deal with that. Pre-kids, I would have considered working more hours if it was a role that offered opportunities or the satisfaction of the work itself, but not so much for the money. I think I’d need to have a specific goal for the $ (buy a house, take a big vacation, paying down debt, deal with some family or medical issue). But I have always been well but not extravagantly paid, so that factors in.

      Practically thinking, what would you need to outsource in your personal life (more paid household help, more takeout food) and does the money cover that?

    8. LadyByTheLake*

      Also think about WHEN you want to work. I routinely work 9.5+ hours a day, but that’s because I work from 7:30-5:30 and usually eat lunch at my desk. I’m “home” way before most people and still completely have a life, but it’s because I’m starting an hour before a lot of people (8:30 start time is usual where I am). Also, think about your commute. If there is a short (or no) commute, adding a half hour at either end of the day can be not that big of a deal.

    10. fhqwhgads*

      $50k more than I make now.
      I’m doing math here though, because my current role requires zero OT and my boss is actually pretty stringent that he absolutely never expects any of us to work more than 40h, and I’m in CA which would require those extra hours daily to be OT (well it wouldn’t if I were exempt, but at the moment I’m not).
      So I’d want double-time for those extra hours…which legally would not require double-time pay, they’d be time and a half, but I’d want double time to do it. So doing all that math out, +$50k.

    11. New Mom*

      For me personally, I feel like the pandemic and recently having a baby has really changed my attitude about how much of my life should be work-only. I really like that I can spend time with my family as soon as work as over and not sit in my car for an additional hour each morning and evening. I’m happy with my current salary so if I were to move to a new role or company that required me to be at the office an additional hour I’d want about a 15%-20% raise, and for an additional two hours, I’d just say no. Eight hours is already a lot and ten hours a day every day, and then commute time just would not be worth it to me.
      I also really, really hate commuting. I’m in a dense traffic area, so it’s stop-and-go the whole way with other frustrated, erratic drivers so I’d only be willing to go up hours worked if the office was closer to my house or WFH. Before we switched to WFH I was coming home in such a bad mood almost every day because of being in traffic for so long, and it was draining my energy so it was hard to snap into productive dinner-cooking mode after being in traffic.
      For you, I think to ask yourself what your quality of life and overall happiness would be with the new hours and see if the salary makes it worth it.

      1. Momma Bear*

        Absolutely. When I had a long commute, it was bad enough. Then I had a baby and spent most of her waking hours on the road or at work. Changing my work-life balance became vital for everyone’s sakes.

    12. AGD*

      I’m an academic and already kind of just work all the time, so the relevant thought experiment for me tends to be the opposite – how much less would I accept in pay if I got an hour or two more per day allocated to hobbies and spare time? I love the job, to be clear, and the pay is very good, and I like that my hours are moderately flexible, but in practice I don’t step away from work much, and most of my hobbies get squeezed into points at the end of the day when I’m too tired to keep at it.

      1. academic Full*

        yep, that pretty much describes my work life balance, none. I also was ambitious and did what I could to fast track promotions. Went up early for tenure and for full. I am trying to do less, but having difficulty stepping back.

    13. Echo*

      For me it depends a lot more on the work than on the money. 1-2 more hours per day of engaging, fulfilling work that I love? Frankly, I’d do it at my existing salary. 1-2 more hours per day but it’s tedious, exhausting, or stressful? I’m quitting, there is no amount of money that would make it worthwhile. This is in fact exactly the way I look at promotions and job changes: is this an opportunity to further shape my role in a direction I’m excited about, to do more of what I love and less of what I hate?

      Some big caveats: I am already paid competitively for my location/seniority/industry, I’m salaried exempt, I have no kids, and while I am partnered my partner (salaried non-exempt) already works 1-2 hours per day more than I do.

    14. AY*

      Well, I used to work 3-4 more hours per weekday than I do now, plus one partial to full weekend day most weekends. At my last job, I made 75k more than I do now, plus a year-end bonus. I left because there is nothing more valuable to me than my time. To do regular 10-hour days (no weekends), I’d need more than a 75k raise. There are a lot of things I do now (gardening, weightlifting, running, trying new recipes every week) that I simply did not have time for under my old schedule. I wouldn’t go back.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Ten hour days, 5 days a week have not been doable for me for a while now. So no amount of money would get me to do it.

      On rare occassion I have done a 12-14 hour day. I need the next day to recoup. So it’s basically a wash- I’d rather just work two normal days than spend the second day totally useless.

      I am willing to do a 9 or 10 hour day to help pull my group out of a bad spot. My focus is more about getting out of the bad spot than it is how much more money I will take home.
      It’s just been my experience that if I work right along, very seldom is OT needed anyway. I do see that other people doing the same work are having a different experience. So there’s that.

    17. Girasol*

      I’ve done this in a bad job market for no extra salary, just for the confidence that I would keep my job, but I regret it. For the boss, the 10th hour is worth the same as the 8th, or perhaps even less because the employee is tired and ineffective. The employee drags home so tired that the little free time left after doing necessary home chores can’t be enjoyed. So the employee sacrifices more for the 10th hour and should demand more for it. The company should consider that the price of an inhumane work schedule.

    18. sara*

      Back when I worked at an office rather than from home, there’s probably a number at which I would have made that trade-off. 25% at least, but hard to say for sure. But that’s because there are ways I could have spent that money to save myself time – house cleaning and laundry service is the main one that comes to mind. But also maybe gym/trainer membership near the office.

      Now that I’m essentially permanent WFH (in a job that pays well enough to comfortably cover my expenses and leisure activities), that just doesn’t make sense anymore. As much as I’d love a house cleaner, I’m home all the time so that doesn’t really make sense. And for laundry, I have it in my building so I can really do laundry anytime during the work day.

      I’d take a pay increase for other reasons, and I’d maybe work increased hours in the right situation, but the two are less linked in my head. Working increased hours, I’d have to be comfortable doing less ‘fun’ stuff, basically, as there’s not as much opportunity to free up more time by throwing money at the problem.

    19. A*

      Not enough money in the world. I accepted my current position largely because it was an ~$25k/yr raise from where I had been – but it’s a global position and since I deal with all time zones I’m often working 10-12 hour days and… it wasn’t worth it. I say that even after the raise allowed me to purchase a home on my own. Still not worth it. And it’s a difficult shift to pivot away from.

    20. Esmeralda*

      50% bump up. I’m close to retirement and would be happy to make more in my last few years, especially since our kid will be graduating from college in a couple of years and I’m worried about there being jobs where they can support themselves. On the other hand, this year has really brought home the importance of down time for my mental and physical health. And, although I like my job, I don’t love it.

    21. Donkey Hotey*

      Maybe I’m mis-reading your question, but for where I am, my work-life-budget is such that my 1.5 overtime is enough to motivate me to work 45-50 hours/week for short periods of time. Anything more than a month or two and there would need to be other PTO-type remuneration.

    22. Quinalla*

      It absolutely is something I think about with my career progression and I avoided moving up much when my kids were very young. Now that they are getting a little older, I’m looking to progress further knowing I will be adding easily 5 hours to my week, though I’ve dialed back some during the pandemic cause right now I basically am part-time teaching my kids on top of my full-time job.

      I don’t know exactly how much $$, but yeah it has to be pretty significant bump.

    23. Fushi*

      You literally could not pay me enough. My job already has periods where I end up doing 10-14 hour days and honestly I find that anything beyond a 9hr day once per week impacts my health significantly. (I have chronic physical and mental health issues, but I think others working tons of OT in my industry are probably not going to end up unscathed in the long run. I’m just the early warning system.) I don’t make that much to start with, but I’d definitely take a 10-15% pay cut to have guaranteed 8hrs or less per day!

    24. Wordybird*

      My current job is pretty thought-intensive and includes lots of really detailed (albeit repetitive) work so I’m really thankful that we’re only asked to work 35 hours a week. On Fridays, my brain is just DONE at 4 pm. Being able to be done by 4 pm also means I get a little break before I have to launch into the dinnertime-homework-bedtime routine. Our benefits are fine but more in line with in-office businesses vs. remote ones.

      It would take at least another $10K + some more vacation time for me to consider giving up that hour from 4 to 5 pm. Once my kids were high school or college-aged, maybe I’d be more open to a more traditional schedule (but I’ll be old by then so…)

  7. Dwight Schrute*

    Is my undercut unprofessional? When I eventually go back to work in person, will I need to hide it? For context I work in public health and also have very curly hair which I often wear in a bun

    1. Gigi*

      I’m guessing Alison would say that it depends on your office culture and norms, and I’m sure she’s correct. But I work for a conservative government agency and those norms are getting looser and looser. These “rules” on professionalism were created and defined by the patriarchy anyway. Push those boundaries and wear a bun! If you act professionally, you are professional.

    3. Weekend Please*

      It’s really hard to say. How are tattoos and unnatural hair colors viewed in your industry? I had an undercut and had no problems but I work in science. I think if other “edgy” style choices are ok, an undercut is ok. In general, an undercut is more subtle than the other examples I listed so it is less likely to raise eyebrows.

    4. londonedit*

      I’ve never worked anywhere where anyone’s haircut would be viewed as unprofessional (unless someone’s hair was objectively actually dirty) but then my industry is very casual and most people wear jeans to work. It would definitely depend on your industry/office.

    5. Captain Raymond Holt*

      Depends on the undercut. Can it be hidden with your hair? I’m female and the back of my head has a pointed undercut. My hair is long enough that you’d only see it if I put my hair in a ponytail. I don’t work in a field where it would be a big deal though (I also have a small nose piercing and nobody cares).

    6. Generic Name*

      I wouldn’t say it’s unprofessional in the sense that it has no place in an office setting (like wearing a bathing suit to work, as an extreme and obvious example), but if you want to be seen as polished and on a management track, maybe it’s not the most professional hairstyle, especially if you’re super young and struggle to be taken seriously? That being said, I totally dyed part of my hair purple for a while and got nothing but positive comments from my coworkers at my consulting firm.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        My view is it depends on how well done the cut is. It’s like that fad of “cutout shoulders” in women’s tops — if it fit perfectly it could be flattering on a movie star, but some people wore ones that gapped and didn’t fit well, or weren’t well designed. I didn’t find that flattering.
        It’s not about the idea of the haircut or the top, it’s about the execution. Is it a great haircut that flatters you? I’ve seen some that are “making a statement” but the person doesn’t seem to look in a 3-way mirror and see how they really look. Some stylists are better than others.

        1. Better off dead*

          Wow.

          There are so many awful things in this comment, I don’t know where to begin. I’m just stunned that anyone would think it acceptable to be so judgemental and rude.

          What a horrible way to think.

          2. Dream Jobbed*

            Awful things? Judgemental [sic] and rude? Your comment seems much ruder to me. Shoulder pads don’t work for everyone, and how a haircut looks, not just what it is, matter.

    8. Natalien*

      I don’t really think of public health as a super buttoned up industry, so I think you’re probably fine.

    9. Hillary*

      Just an undercut? No one noticed mine for 5+ years, even when I had a high undercut and pull the top/sides up from my bob. As long as your hair is styled neatly you’ll be fine.

      1. Hillary*

        in case you’re wondering, I’m saying this as a manager in a business that’s moving more casual. My usual look in the office is a polished dress or slacks/blouse and a blazer. My hair is less conservative now – I added unnatural color and now have a short cut that can be styled as a pixie or straight up (think Natalie Maines right now but shorter).

        I think of public health as mostly business casual, if you’re in international public health and wear suits my answer might be different.

    10. Dwight Schrute*

      Thanks everyone! I do also have tattoos that can be hidden, and the undercut is hidden if I wear my hair down. Dress code would be business casual in person

      1. Sheldon Cooper Doesn't Represent Me*

        Be conservative at first and test the waters by wearing your hair in a way that partly reveals it. For example, try wearing your bun lower on your head so that only the lower part of the undercut shows. Or alternate hairstyles between styles that show it and styles that hide it. Then once you have accustomed people to the look, rock your usual style. Sometimes the surprise at an unusual style is worse than the style itself, so easing people into it might work.

        1. comityoferrors*

          This is exactly why I did mine! I have an undercut on the back of my head, shaved to just below the spot I pull my hair up in a ponytail/bun (probably 2″ above the top of my ears). It makes my long, thick hair so much easier to manage and it’s soooo much lighter/more comfortable.

          I work in a business casual office in a leadership role. I wear my hair in a bun a lot so the undercut is very visible, and most people don’t notice or, at worst, they think it’s cute. The only problem I have is maintenance (especially in the lockdowns – it grew out to 5-6″ long and looked terrible. Thankfully everyone politely failed to comment on it then, too.)

    11. Chilipepper*

      I have an undercut on both sides. Ok, I really have a buzz cut everywhere but the top. If I wear it down, it looks aymetrical but I mostly wear it on top pulled into a clip. I love my cut and no one bats an eye.

      I’m actually a tail end baby boomer and female. I do work in a library but even the public does not care.

      It really depends on your industry and region and specific workplace.

    12. A*

      I don’t understand why it would be considered an issue. Unless you have elaborate designs shaved in that are somehow offensive, it’s just another hairstyle.

  8. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I got promoted! I am very excited — however, part of the promotion puts me on a career track that I don’t really have experience in. My boss knows this, but believes in my ability to learn this side of my role and has offered to cover the cost of courses/trainings, with the idea that this will help them retain me long-term at the company. I’m stoked! But I have no idea where to look for classes.

    Can anyone point me in the direction of some really great marketing strategy and digital marketing courses? It can be one-off courses or it can be a certificate program type of thing. I don’t yet know the budget for this (and it sounds like my boss wants me to provide a few options so she can determine how much is realistic to be spending on this).

    1. Ali G*

      You could start with your local community college or adult education center. They have all kinds of one-off classes and certificate programs.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Thanks! I guess I should clarify I am looking for specific recommendations of specific courses rather than types of places to check out. I have looked at my in-state university system and my alma maters but have not found courses that are quite right. I’m open to doing this with any institution that offers online learning, but also don’t know if there are marketing organizations/associations that offer this sort of thing.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You may not find a course that fits your setting that well. A lot of this stuff is cobbled together.

          I just did a quick search of SUNY (State University of NY) Online and there are so. many. courses.

          I think what I would do is ask my boss, if I were in your spot. See, the thing I’d think about is that I could pick out this great course BUT the boss/company would think that the course was small potatoes. So I’d try to get buy-in from the boss in anyway I could- that would be picking something and discussing it with them OR using something the boss suggests as being a good idea.

        2. Xenia*

          You could check back with your boss and ask, too—if this isn’t the first time your company has done something like this, they might know some good courses or have a referral program of some form in place.

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            I’d love to use my boss as a resource on this but she has no functional overlap with my role and this is a newly created role that I’ve been promoted into. So my boss is really looking for me to send her a few links to classes/programs and she can say yea or nay. She has no background in this or any idea of what’s even out there in terms of education. The only guidance I got was “look at Harvard’s online classes,” because she took one there once. So, as Not So NewReader and others have suggested, I’ve already scoured online course catalogs for ideas — but I was hoping someone in the AAM Commentariat might have already taken this kind of graduate-level or professional-level course/program and could point me to something specific they’d recommend.

    3. Kiko*

      If you have zero experience, General Assembly may be a good place to start. The only thing is that it’s pretty expensive, but I would take advantage of this program if the company is footing the bill.

    4. Chilipepper*

      See if your local library has a subscription to linked in learning – the classes will be free.

    5. Lord Peter Wimsey*

      Might try the Association of National Advertisers (ANA). They have some great training resources for marketers. Not sure if you have to be a member to access, though.

      1. Cassidy*

        This. Start with professional groups in your field. Not only can they recommend training, but also, it’s likely the training will be standardized/certified/recognized in your field. Membership might be a requirement, but then, you’d be paying for access to quality.

        Good luck, and congratulations!

  9. fhqwhgads*

    How would you deal with this?
    We recently had all-staff training on insensitive language – in particular the not-necessarily-obvious kind, either stuff with racist origins that someone might be genuinely unaware of, but also things like casually using ADD or OCD as adjectives when one does not have those conditions.
    Literally the next meeting I was in after that one, a highish up person made a comment about “OCD about…” something in a particular task we were reviewing. This wasn’t one-on-one. There were maybe a dozen people in the meeting.
    On the one hand, if the person in question does have OCD, I’m not trying to police the language. I have OCD and occasionally mention it, but usually only around people who know that I do. I’m not trying to go around asking for this person’s private medical info. But on the other hand, if you don’t have OCD, the statement really rankles. Especially given the timing.
    There is a DEAI committee and I could probably broach it with someone there, but I also don’t want to seem like I’m targeting this one specific person. On the other hand, if this one specific person is the one who needs a reminder, that one specific person should get the reminder. I know I could also point it out to the person directly, but A) I don’t want to mention my own OCD to that person, B) if they do have OCD I don’t want to make it seem like I’m demanding to be informed. It just feels messy. We have this committee and these trainings to make a more inclusive environment, so people don’t have to feel the very squicky feeling I did when I heard that comment. But it also feels like there’s no good way to stop it other than the wide-broadcast message everyone already got.
    Do I need to just let it go, or is there a way to raise it that isn’t horrible?

    1. TPS reporter*

      I think I would try to raise it but the approach depends on hierarchy and relationships. If the person is your peer, I’d say talk to them one on one at some point after the meeting. If they’re junior to you and you manage them, you should definitely talk to them. If they’re higher up, perhaps your own manager has a rapport with them. You could ask your manager (hopefully they’re sensitive enough) to bring it up in a general way and not mention your name.

      Especially because this was just addressed at a specific training, your company has made it clear that it’s important to the culture to be aware of this type of language. I do think the approach after that has to be more targeted.

    2. RagingADHD*

      The point isn’t that it’s okay for people who actually have OCD to casually use it as an adjective for micromanaging or over-controlling behavior in general. Or to use ADD casually to mean flighty, forgetful or disorganized in general.

      The point is to change the norms of using language, so nobody uses it that way, stop perpetuating stereotypes and stigmatizing real health conditions.

      I wouldn’t escalate this one, because there wasn’t really time for anyone to absorb or practice the training and changing habits takes time. But if it keeps happening I’d bring it up.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I was not suggesting it’s OK for people with OCD to use it as synonymous with the stuff you said. The statement in question was phrased in such a way that it was ambiguous as to whether the person were making a literal comment about their own OCD or whether they chose to use “OCD” in that sentence as a synonym for “I find it very difficult to let this go”. If it had been more clearly the latter I wouldn’t have a conundrum.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Okay, since it wasn’t anything clearly dismissive, stereotypical, or disparaging, then that’s all the more reason to hold back and see how it plays out.

          1. Dee*

            I feel like waiting to bring it up might be good, but I disagree that those adjectives don’t apply to people furthering stigma about OCD.

            1. RagingADHD*

              Eh? Those adjectives certainly do apply to furthering stigma.

              OP said it wasn’t clearly a case of stigma, but the speaker could have been speaking about their own condition in the ordinary course of conversation, not in a stereotypical way. I’m having trouble visualizing that, but conversations can be subtle in a lot of ways.

              I don’t think it’s worth calling someone out when you aren’t even sure what happened or what they were talking about.

                1. Jules the 3rd*

                  I have OCD (diagnosed under treatment). I occasionally reference it in conversation to normalize it. If I had a more visible position at work (eg, was an executive), I would probably bring it up more.

                  If the usage did not strike fhqwhgads as unambiguously offensive, then they are best off waiting to comment.

                2. Dee*

                  Jules the 3rd, that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s not about bringing up or discussing OCD. I’m a huge proponent of open communication about mental health where possible! It’s about saying something that completely misrepresents OCD in a way that furthers stigma.

                  Nobody with OCD is doing the rest of us any favors by saying “I am so obsessive compulsive disorder about things I just happen to be picky about.” That is *not* what OCD is. I don’t have to explain how much OCD isn’t that. So I’m really not sure why there seems to be an issue with realizing that *anyone* talking about it this way is a problem for me.

                3. Dee*

                  And yes, I know other people can’t judge what is picky vs an OCD symptom. OCD isn’t an adjective though, and regardless of anything else using it that way comes across as very dismissive, which yes I do find offensive. I have don’t care about proper grammar, But talking about OCD in a way that’s constructive like you mention means to me, talking about it more accurately.

      2. Dee*

        fhqwhgads :awesome name!):

        I don’t know enough about stuff like this in a workplace environment to say if you should say something, but if you do, I think RagingADHD’s comment is insightful. Both in regards to, maybe it was not enough time to absorb, and also with your points A and B. A talk doesn’t necessarily have to include who has OCD or not.

        I would probably say to the person, in light of the information we were given in the training, I was wondering if you had given it thought that ideally people both with and without OCD would not use that language because it still can have a negative impact either way. I might, make it clear from the start I’m not asking for a confirmation or disclosure of medical information – this might have the result of making the conversation sound more formal (where I’d want to keep it light and curious sounding), but it could help keep the conversation on what you’d want to focus on more than who has OCD.

        1. Dee*

          Your comment posted while I was typing mine, basically my point is that if you’re not saying it’s okay for people with OCD to use it as a synonym, then it doesn’t have to matter to how you’d approach it if the person was making a literal comment or using it as a synonym.

        2. TPS reporter*

          and you don’t necessarily have to confront/call people out. You can have a more general conversation at some point about how you felt in that training and how you think you can incorporate the lessons learned.

    3. Cat Tree*

      This is a tough one. I used to have OCD (treatment was extremely effective). It annoys me when people use it flippantly, because for me it was seriously debilitating and not not just some annoying quirk. Sometimes I would sort of call their bluff by acting like they genuinely have it and make a sympathetic comment to commiserate our shared challenge. And hypothetically if they did actually have it, it wouldn’t sound insulting to them (although I fully admit my intent wasn’t sincere and I recognize how passive-aggressive I was). Generally people who have medical conditions, especially mental health ones, are reluctant to “out” themselves so casually.

      Usually when the person realizes that I actually had OCD, they realize that they made a thoughtless mistake, and it’s enough to make them more careful in the future but in a way that doesn’t make them feel ashamed in front of the rest of the group. And it has been my experience that most of the time people are using it thoughtlessly and truly feel bad about it once they realize.

      That said, I think it is ok for someone to feel embarrassed about a mistake and we don’t have to bend over backwards to protect their feelings at all costs. I think it’s fine to mention something in the moment, and if the person frequently makes that comment you could even mention it in a sidebar conversation between just the two of you. The vast majority of people will handle it graciously.

      1. TPS reporter*

        I don’t think you even need to say you have OCD to make a point about this. I don’t have OCD but my spouse does so I rankle at those comments as well. Hopefully we’re getting to a better place in society where we can act with empathy even if we have not personally experienced a certain issue.

    4. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Ideally you can address something like this in the moment – whether letting your shocked face do the talking or a broader “I guess Alex wasn’t listening in the session the other week, but using OCD flippantly isn’t really something everyone here may be comfortable with.” That said, it may not work with someone very defensive and sometimes a public call out isn’t the best choice.

      You can go back to that person and say casually, “I know you may not even realize, but the other day in a meeting you referred to something as OCD. I noticed because it came not long after the training session and that was an example of language that can be exclusionary (or however you’d like to frame this, but take it back to how it was raised in the training). I thought it worth pointing out because of course you want to avoid that kind of language.”

      A couple of Alison stand-bys here, one of which is framing it as “of COURSE you didn’t mean anything by it” because that makes it less likely they will act all defensive about it. The other is to lean on the existing corporate messaging.

      No need to disclose any of your own stuff. You just had training where this was specifically mentioned, which is the perfect way to address it! Even if this person does have OCD, you can point out that others might also and not be OK with the language, so it’s still best avoided. If you wanted you could add “I’m especially sensitive to this due to some experiences in my own circle” but there’s really no reason you need to.

      1. RagingADHD*

        There’s also a power dynamic at play here.

        This was a high-ish up person that OP apparently doesn’t have a close direct relationship with, in a group meeting. That’s not just a momentary embarrassment, that’s a high-stakes callout that could potentially derail the conversation.

        And in private, that type of script would sound really condescending and inappropriate for someone junior to address to someone more senior.

        In OP’s position I don’t think they need feel any obligation to do either of those things. If it continues, the diversity/inclusion committee are the right people to speak to.

    5. Jim Bob*

      If it becomes a pattern, raise it. A single instance, before the training has had time to sink in? Let it go.

      1. Zephy*

        I disagree, I think right after a training is a good time to point it out, to reinforce what was covered and drive home the idea that when the training talked about people who do this, it was in fact talking about them, here is the evidence.

        1. Jim Bob*

          I might agree if this was a peer, but policing an isolated instance of language of someone high up the food chain will not end well, unless it’s something horrendous.

    6. Yorick*

      I have been diagnosed with OCD and used to struggle with compulsions and obsessive thoughts. I also have pet peeves about things. Those are not the same. I’d never say about a pet peeve that “I’m OCD about the types of silverware being put in their exact place.” If I were really talking about a symptom for some reason I wouldn’t phrase it that way either, I might say something like “I compulsively count the ceiling tiles.” I’m guessing other people with OCD wouldn’t do that either.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        It’s variable. My C is usually counting or reading, and my O is usually about drowning (which fortunately doesn’t come up at work much!). But there are some professional things that make me uncomfortable in the same way that a drowning reference does, just not quite as intensely. They are very much formatting / look stuff, and are definitely different than a peeve.

        The last time someone asked how I get tables in emails and complimented them for always looking good, I had to bite my tongue *not* to explain it’s an OCD thing. (My C there is that I always fix tables or fix weird font changes that come from copy / pastes. I am very uncomfortable if I don’t do this for the tables / text in my responses when other people have introduced them in their emails. I don’t go back and change their fonts or tables. Just ‘Paste Special | Plain text’ if I quote them…) I have become more comfortable than I ever thought I would talking about my OCD. Every time I’ve mentioned it, the response has been very positive, including one person who told me that my casual discussion of OCD helped push him to get ADHD testing and treatment.

        I consider this part of normalizing and de-stigmatizing OCD and mental illness. If I were an executive, I’d probably talk about it even more, though I’d have to be careful about not pressuring people to do their stuff my way.

        To me, since fhqwhgads didn’t register this as obviously offensive, they’re better off waiting to have a conversation.

    7. Analyst Editor*

      Let it go. I bet more employees than will admit it think the training is ridiculous already, and I guarantee that the message will not be received any more gladly if you make a thing about catching every Speech Crime in action.

      1. Yorick*

        As a person with OCD, I cannot tell you how harmful it is that people think I have a “disorder” that makes me neat and organized. We really need people to stop saying they’re OCD about keeping their files in the right place or whatever.

      2. pancakes*

        This is projection, and seems to be a persistent theme with you. Your personal objection to any sort of diversity and inclusion training isn’t in fact strengthening by imagining that many people you’ve never met agree with you about it. Pretending that it has anything to do with “speech crime” is similarly obtuse.

    8. Roci*

      You could shoot them a message in a casual medium–like an IM or Slack, or an email even–afterwards, saying, “Hey, thanks for bringing up that point about [subject they said they were OCD about]! I remember from that training we just went to that we should say we’re ‘particular about something’ rather than ‘OCD’. Just wanted to let you know, and please tell me if I slip up myself–hard to change speech habits!”

      Maybe add some emojis or whatever seems appropriate to soften the message. The idea being that you’re both trying to change a habit for everyone’s sake, not that you’re correcting someone–could be tricky if they’re senior to you.

  10. I need tea*

    Are there any autistic teachers here? Particularly those teaching primary/elementary/junior level (ages 4 to 11ish). I’m working towards going into teaching and have been recently diagnosed with ASD and am wanting to better prepare for potential issues. Is there anything specifically you struggle with with ASD and teaching, any particularly helpful accommodations you need etc? General tips and advice you wish you’d known sooner?

    1. anon helper*

      I sometimes work with principals who are trying to support struggling teachers. One common problem with struggling teachers that sometimes makes me wonder if a particular teacher is neuro-divergent is the inability to “read” a room and take in if an individual student or group of students are struggling to master the material. A good teacher has a sense for this and will pause, pivot mid-lesson and re-teach if necessary. It is a problem when a teacher simply marches through the material without regard to learners; these are also very frustrated teachers who are sometimes angry with the students for not learning, which is not a good situation for anyone. Perhaps you can seek out some volunteer opportunities and see where you are with respect to this particular, essential skill.

      1. I need tea*

        Thanks for this. I should’ve mentioned above that I have a few years of experience doing voluntary tutoring, designing and teaching short-term or 9 month ESOL courses and this wasn’t a problem for me there – it’s pretty easy for me to identify when someone’s struggling or an entire group is struggling; the thing I initially found difficult was finding different ways to express or apply a concept, but that got easier once I developed a wider range of strategies to draw on. One of the things I plan to work on is developing a much wider range of different strategies that I can better tailor to the individual struggling with the concept.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I am a special ed teacher with ADHD and I have worked with ASD students and education professionals for much of the last 25 years. Some suggestions of things you might want to be aware of:

      – Executive function. Teaching multiple classes and multiple preps is a lot of planning and detail. My last department head was ASD and she excelled at the detail and minutiae of special ed paperwork but she found the constant switching, planning and unpredictability of the classroom to be exhausting. I love the classroom and people but I really struggle with the details of paperwork and grading. It can be managed but the first two years were STEEP learning curves.

      – Emotional workload. There is a lot of this in teaching, no matter how hard you try to manage it. It can be done, but kids are emotionally needy (and their parents can be too.) I have compromised on campus location in order to have a short commute so that I could exercise and make healthy meals each day because I need those things to be at my best.

      -Technology. School tech and workplace tech are different. You have to use what the school/district gives you. Be prepared to be flexible on this point but also you have to be willing to learn. Which brings me to…

      -Flexibility. Teaching requires more flexibility on a constant basis than anything I have ever done which includes parenting and being a celebrity personal assistant. If this is something with which you struggle, start planning now with your best practices to make this easier for yourself.

      Good luck! I hope you land in the ideal position as you launch your teaching career!

      1. I need tea*

        Thanks very much for this! Have you always taught special ed or did you move into it? What do you feel the pros/cons are between teaching special ed and general in terms of your ADHD (if you’re comfortable sharing, if not no worries!)?

        Where I live, class sizes on average are about 24 students and at the level I want to teach there’s a single class to a teacher. (This is a major draw for me – I believe it’ll be easier to manage but also will allow me to better support students’ development, academic and otherwise, which is something I’m really passionate about.) One thing I found when I was planning and teaching short courses or planning from an existing curriculum was the frequency at which plans would change – often pre-planned work needed rescheduled. Switching to something else in the moment was okay (I was teaching ESOL, it was pretty easy to pivot to “let’s review this aspect of grammar” or “let’s practice talking in the past tense” etc.) but I struggled with feeling like my planning time was wasted. Any tips on best practices for this? Something I’m thinking of is building up an activity bank colour coded by time, learning modality, skills, concept, link to curriculum etc., that I can use to plan lessons on the fly when they need to take a different direction – do you have any particular critiques or advice on this?

        Re emotional workload, I’m honestly more concerned about the parents than I am about the kids. I obviously expect there to be a lot of emotional work for the kids; they’re little and need support to develop their emotional regulation skills! From what I’ve read on teaching forums etc., it seems like the major thing here is to have a supportive admin who’ll have your back with problematic parents, and to be able to set good boundaries. I can do the latter, but finding the former is somewhat more challenging!

        1. AcademiaNut*

          One thing to keep in mind is the market for teachers in the job you want – the job in your local town at the age you want as a full time classroom teacher – may not be easy to obtain. Talk to teachers in the area, and ask about their path to their jobs – did they have to move to get work, did they have to spend years as a sub before getting a full time position, etc. This can be a particular issue for popular areas to live, or anywhere with a teacher program.

          Re wasted planning – I’d reframe the way you think about it. Lesson planning is a skill – even if a particular lesson wasn’t used, the work of planning it builds your skills. And it gets more efficient as you get more skilled. I’m more familiar with post secondary teaching – it’s normal for a professor to spend all their effort on teaching duties the first couple of years (when their job is a combination of research, teaching and administration), but the work tapers off as they build up a set of lecture notes and get better at prepping efficiently.

          1. I need tea*

            Re the local market, I’m open to moving and looking for work within at least a dozen council areas and all teachers who complete the postgrad qualification (it’s the same qualification country-wide) are guaranteed a paid position in a school for their probationary year, successful completion of which results in status as a qualified teacher. I know a few teachers who were offered a job at the same school they worked at for their probationary year, mostly in deprived or rural areas, and honestly some of those areas are ones I’d want to live and work in longterm. Obviously, nothing is guaranteed but the undergrad – postgrad – probationary year – full-time position one appears to be pretty typical here.

            Re planning – that’s very useful, thanks! I can be quite methodical in my skills development so reframing that would very much help me develop those skills and hopefully set myself up well for future years.

    3. Dino*

      I’m not autistic but I have ADHD (which I understand has some overlapping experiences) and worked in K-12 for a few years. I had a hard time with some of the sensory input stuff. Tapping, yelling, sniffling, squeaky shoes, fluorescent lighting, keyboard clacking, etc.

      1. I need tea*

        This is a good point, and one of the things I’m concerned about. I rarely get overstimulated these days but I think the most I can minimise the sensory input that I control (like in terms of what I wear and eat) the easier it will be to cope with additional sensory input. Thanks for your response!

    4. STEM teacher with ASD*

      I think it depends, to some degree, on what your ASD means for you.

      For me, one thing I didn’t anticipate is how hard fire drills would be for me. In retrospect, it’s obvious – very loud noises and very bright flashing lights, lots of commotion, etc. At my first school, they were random, and we never knew when one was going to happen, but they happened at least once a month. At my current school, they tell teachers in advance so that we can plan not to be testing or doing a delicate lab, for instance, and that gives me time to mentally prepare too. So, if you have sensory issues too, knowing how fire drills are handled might be good to know!

      In that same vein, my current school was wonderful about switching out a light bulb that bothered me. The color temperature was different than the other bulbs in the room, and it buzzed. No one else seemed to hear the buzz, but they didn’t make me feel strange for asking that the light bulbs match.

      Since I struggle with social interactions, I worried about how I’d connect with students, but it’s been way better than I expected. I teach high school, and I love that I get to have warm and friendly relationships where the rules, roles, and boundaries are so clearly defined. We are not friends; I am their teacher who also loves geeking out over Star Wars and whatnot, and that’s a surprisingly lovely thing.

      I also think sometimes my ASD makes me a better teacher because my need for structure and clear expectations is pretty in line with my students’ needs. Students really thrive on clear classroom routines, and do their best work when they understand what is expected of them and how they will be assessed. Maybe I don’t read their facial expressions as well as other teachers, but I make up for that by checking for understanding frequently.

      I see you mention parents further down. I’ve found that most of my parent interactions are over email, and that works well for me. I can take my time to write a response, and have a colleague read it if I’m worried the tone sounds wrong. My current school has a culture that encourages appointments for parent/teacher meetings, so I never have surprise visits from parents, and that makes a big difference in my anxiety levels.

      I hope some of that is helpful! I was worried when I started too, but it’s been 15 years and I’m still really happy teaching. I hope that you can say the same in the future!

      1. I need tea*

        Thanks so much for your input! It sounds like a lot of things that make a difference for you are a supportive school culture – when I get to the point of applying for jobs this is definitely something I’ll be keeping in mind. I’ll definitely be looking into policies re fire drills and classroom options etc.

        Re social interactions and structure, honestly a lot of what draws me to teaching primary is the space for helping kids develop their social skills. (It’s an explicit part of our national curriculum.) I’ve spent most of my life masking, wasn’t diagnosed till adulthood and developed an incredibly solid social support network and meaningful relationships without knowing I’m autistic, but I had to learn a lot of this stuff explicitly and I think that could help me to teach others who might struggle with developing their social skills too. I also feel that providing clear structure and expectations for the kids will help both me and my students – I do very well with routine and strongly value transparency which I think will be beneficial if I can implement those things well.

        Thanks again, I really hope to be in a position to be able to pass on similar advice in another 15 years!

  11. Mez*

    I’m hoping y’all can either help me re-frame this in my head, or maybe there might be an actionable solution. Like a lot of offices, mine had to abruptly pivot to a working from home situation last March because of Covid. As a result,  I was home from late February through mid-June, since my daughter’s daycare shut down. I voluntarily came back into the office at that time, because I felt confident in the Covid protocols our office put in place (mask wearing, social distancing, work from home as needed, etc) not to mention, working from home was not a good fit for me. Most of my colleagues now work from home one day  a week , and it’s worked out well. However, our newest colleague (this is her first job out of college) – has been home for almost a year now. While we OF COURSE do NOT want to make anyone feel unsafe or like we are forcing something, the reality is…we need her here. There simply is too much work between myself and my other coworker to shoulder on our own, and so much of what we do itsn’t conducive to going fully digital. While we want to be respectful of her fears – she’s said she’s scared of the virus – she’s been to the beach with her friends, her roommates have all had Covid…something’s not adding up. This all came to a head last week, when, after our weekly zoom call we requested that she start coming in Tuesday – Thursday. She would be using an empty office with a door, and we’d be following our usual protocol – mask wearing, distancing, etc. She was pretty poker faced on the call, but agreed she’d see us then. Tuesday arrives…and she just doesn’t show. We call her at 11, and she says “Oh I just don’t think it would be a good idea for me to come in – I’m studying for my CFA and I don’t want to get Covid”. Okay? Besides this not being a good look in normal circumstances ….what do we do? This virus is absolutely scary and should be taken seriously. But in the time I’ve been back (last June) there hasn’t single Covid case in our office. We’re not perfect, but we’re doing something right. HELP.

    1. Darlingpants*

      If you need her in the office, then that’s what you need, but it’s her managers problem if she no shows.

      When it comes to reframing: I went physically into work basically this whole time, but I have a much better idea of the risks of seeing friends (who I know don’t have children in in-person school and can straight out ask if they’ve travelled or how often they get groceries) than I do the people at work. Multiple people at work have kids in childcare/school, which is an exponential increase in my exposure risk, and I can’t go around asking my colleagues how often their grandma (who they live with) goes to doctors appointments and what kind of mask she wears, or how many people came over for Christmas.

      1. Darlingpants*

        Also like you, I hated working from home full time and was thrilled to go in. But the first couple times dealing with the COVID protocols and the masking and the anxiety was so so draining and I was totally exhausted. If someone is more anxious about COVID then me then that anxiety isn’t going to ease the same way mine did when I got used to it all. You’re asking her to do a thing the way you prefer it, so it seems easy/logical. But you’re asking her to make a really big change in the way she’s been working for a year and that’s a big deal.

    2. Ins mom*

      Are you management? If the work cannot be done remotely, and everyone else is in safely, time for management to deal with it .

    3. Ama*

      OK, I think you buried the lede here a bit! Seems like the real issue is she agreed she’d come in and then just decided not to without telling anyone, and didn’t seem to think it would be a problem.

      Whoever is managing her needs to sit down with her and have a talk about how big a deal it is that she agreed to come in and then no-showed. And then they can move from there into “we need you to commit to being in the office at least X days a week, can you do that?”

      1. Almost Empty Nester*

        Absolutely! Her attendance requirements have now changed, and she either needs to commit to doing what’s been asked of her, or if she can’t do that, she should be replaced. She’s not being asked to do anything that others aren’t already doing successfully, so I suspect she’s got something personally going on that she doesn’t want to share (living somewhere that makes working in the office impossible, etc.). The no-show is non-negotiable though, and needs to be dealt with.

    4. PolarVortex*

      I am going to try to think the best of her – hard when she no showed but – there could be multiple reasons she is stressed about coming into the office:
      – She’s never been in before, it’s weird and awkward particularly if you struggle with social anxiety
      – She’s actually WFH a large distance away and didn’t tell anyone she’s actually Working from Grandpa’s Cabin
      – She thinks it’s optional after WFH for the past year and she can just keep on doing what she’s doing.
      – She’s a young kid fresh out of college who truly doesn’t know the difference between a professor telling you to attend class and a workplace telling you to show up to work and needs some education on that fact.

      I’m going to assume you’re managing her somehow – if not the manager needs to do this – but you need to have a serious conversation about how no-showing on Tuesday was not acceptable when you expected her to be in. You need to have a larger conversation around her expected duties and precautions the workplace has taken and the expectations given when she signed onto her job. Then you’re going to have to hold her to those expectations.

    5. mf*

      This is her manager’s problem, not yours. Best you can do here is talk to him/her and ask if your coworker can please come into the office on a weekly basis.

      It is possible that she has a reason for continuing to WFH. She might be high risk or she may live with someone who is. In any case, that’s a private conversation she can have with her boss and may not be something she wants to discuss with you.

    6. Black Horse Dancing*

      This is something her manager (Is that you?) should be handling with a something like “We understand your fears and have prepared the office for COVID safety. We need you here. If you can not do this, we need to discuss if this is the role for you.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. So agree.
        I would also say that no show/no call for her first day at work is now part of her record. I’d stress that the problem is NOT that she did not show up, people fail to show for lots of reasons. It’s the fact that she did NOT CALL to report she would not be in to the workplace, that was her big error.

        I do think that this deserves a response from her boss and definitely should be addressed asap.

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      You call her your colleague and not your employee, so I’m writing this comment under the assumption that you’re not her supervisor. If I got that wrong, feel free to disregard this advice.

      The person who gets to tell her that she needs to come in and work from the office is her supervisor. If you really do feel that there are functions of the job that aren’t getting done and require her to be there in person, you need to talk to your boss about it.

      And look. All of her roommates have had COVID and she managed not to get it. That’s basically miraculous. She’s already dodged some pretty enormous bullets and I imagine she feels like that kind of luck is something that will almost certainly run out eventually. She went to the beach with her friends because she knows them and knows what precautions they’re taking, and that makes her feel secure enough to spend time with them in person. She may not feel like she knows all of her coworkers at the same level, and it can be awkward to ask your colleagues if they eat in restaurants or buy their groceries in person.

      1. Malarkey01*

        Yeah the thing not adding up is how this was done and what the relationships are here. If several of. Y coworkers told me after a staff meeting they thought I needed to come in, I could see feeling trapped and nodding along and then following up with my actual supervisor. She should have circled back with the communication but maybe supervisor said let me handle it??

        As a manger who works with a very very liberal WFH group, I’d actually be upset if people were pressuring coworkers to return. I’d go to your manager ASAP and talk about workload.

        If you are her manager and you have authority to order her back, then do that if it’s necessary.

    8. BRR*

      First, I think you need to abandon any thoughts or positions in the realm of dictating her comfort level with exposure. I think it’s just not a winning argument to have and she’s allowed to have behavior that doesn’t add up. I personally would be far more comfortable at an outdoor gathering with friends than inside with coworkers because I would have at least a ballpark idea of what my friends were doing compared to my coworkers.

      From a work angle, I cant tell for sure but it sounds like you’re not her manager so I’m approaching it from that perspective. Instead of focusing on her not coming in, bring the issue up to your manage that your workload is unsustainable. That’s the crux of the problem (the problem as it relates to you). If you get roped into her coming into the office, but again I don’t think that’s your point to bring up, I would change from “here our are protocols, see they’re good” to “are there certain things that would be needed for you to feel safe and comfortable to come in for the work that requires being here?”

      And I’d be incredibly irritated if someone just didn’t show up and didn’t think to maybe give a heads up.

    9. Anono-me*

      I think that the answer really depends on your professional relationship to this person.

      If you as her supervisor discussed/told this new supervisee to come into the office on Thursday and she agreed. Her not showing up and not communicating beforehand is a problem that needs to be addressed.

      If you and other coworkers decided to team up and tell a new coworker that she had to start coming into the office as of Thursday; I can understand the new coworker feeling like she had to make agreeable noises in the moment, but later going “Ooooooh no. No. No! NO!”. She may feel like the peer pressure and risk of potential damage to future woring relationships are too great to give a hard ‘no’. She may also not want to discuss any agreement or accomodation she has with management. If this peer situation is the case; you need to discuss your workload issues with your manager, not your solutions to workload issues with your coworker.

      As far as the Covid-19 risks:
      -You don’t know what your coworker’s health is like, you only know that she looks healthy.
      -I have gone to outside events with friends and still maintained 10+feet distance while masking. Maybe she did something similar.
      -Maybe your coworker is at her grandparent’s BECAUSE her roommates had Covid.

      It is also possible that your new coworker is a slacking off jerk; but that also is an issue for managment.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      “I’m studying for my CFA and I don’t want to get Covid”

      Is this a work thing? (I know what CFA is, but wasn’t clear if she’s doing it as part of her role, or independently). Is it possible that the real reason she doesn’t want to come in is she’s using ‘work’ time to study for that instead?

      1. LavaLamp*

        Are you actually her supervisor? If not, I don’t think you really have the authority to tell her what her schedule should be.

    11. TechWorker*

      You don’t say you’re her manager so it sounds like something her manager should deal with? I have full sympathy for not wanting to be in work but you can’t just agree and then no call no show…

    12. RagingADHD*

      What’s company policy on no-call, no-show?

      Because covid or not, most places would immediately discipline or fire someone if they simply refused to come in after they acknowledged & agreed to the schedule. If she wants to keep re-negotiating her return, then she shouldn’t agree to it and let you believe you can count on her being there.

      You can’t manage people if you have no actual authority. So whoever has the authority is the one who needs to talk to her about her schedule and then follow through on it.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        We don’t necessarily know this employee did a no-call/no-show. If Mez doesn’t actually control this employee’s schedule, it’s possible that the supervisor was fully aware that she was going to be working from home and didn’t expect her in the office at all.

    13. Salt & Vinegar Chips*

      Everyone is scared of getting/dying of Covid, that is not a excuse that should allow you to push your work on other people. Being afraid of Covid also doesn’t mean you get to stay in the house and have nothing change just because you want to. Unless she has a real reason other than being scared (ie. childcare is closed, spouse/SO or child is immunocompromised) then she needs to come and do the part of her job she is not doing.
      My advice depends on who you are in relation to your co-worker.

      If you are not her management: Whoever your management is you need to let them know how much of her work you and your co-workers are taking on and that its not feasible for you all to continue like this. Its up to your management on what steps to take next, but they need to be aware of how much you and your co-workers are taking on. They also should have been the ones to call and find out where she was, if she doesn’t show up for work when she says she will call your management let them take care of it.

      If you are her management: Then tell her she needs to be in the office on the days needed to start fulfilling the job she has not been doing due to not being in the office. If she doesn’t show then follow your companies next steps for employees refusing to work (usually an improvement plan or termination depending on her response).

    14. allathian*

      Going to the beach with friends is not particularly dangerous if you’re masked and keep an appropriate distance. The most risky part of a trip to the beach would be sharing the same car, but even that can be mitigated a bit by driving with the windows down, weather permitting. Beaches are outdoors and windy. Also, if her roommates have had COVID and she’s managed to avoid it, she’s been very diligent with precautions as well as very lucky, because plenty of people have caught it in spite of taking precautions.

      If you need her in the office, her manager needs to tell her that. You as her peer don’t have the authority to do so, no matter how much you’d prefer her to be at the office.

      Has your youngest colleague been WFH for as long as she’s worked for you, or did she work at the office before you all went WFH? If it’s the latter, asking her to come back to the office should be a bit simpler, but if it’s the former, her manager needs to tell her that the WFH arrangement was never intended to be permanent and that she needs to come to the office at least some days of the week.

      But if she’s really determined to WFH, her manager may need to let her go.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Not going to rehash my variation of things already said, just add a factor I hadn’t seen: car vs public transit
      If she doesn’t drive, getting to office means public transit which is an increased risk for her AND YOU.

  12. Learning to Breathe*

    I need serious help with learning to concentrate at home! There are no distractions, it just like my brain went on vacation and never came back. I finally got back to do what I love – individual contributor role where I work independently. Previously I spent the past year in endless back-to-back meetings and never got to actually *do* anything myself. Now that I’m back where I want to be – I just can’t focus on anything! My tasks are not something that I can break down or make a checklist, it is more of “learn about the domain by investigating what we have until you find where the change needs to be made”

    Factors at play
    – Likely ADD (self-diagnosed as an adult female – in the past whenever I had a problem I just drank a cola and would be able to concentrate once I got started on the task at hand)
    – Asthma is much worse than usual (so my brain is probably not getting all the oxygen that it should)
    – Live alone
    – Quarantining due to very small chance of covid exposure
    – Not really anyone to talk to at work unless I have a specific question

    Normally I just lean into the distractions until I tire of them and become interested in work again (often would become hyperfocused on work at that point and more than make up for the wasted time) But I’m not being distracted by anything – I’m really just zoning out or pacing around my apartment. I might walk around composing an email in my head but won’t sit down to type it out. I can spin around in my chair thinking about how I’m going to accomplish my tasks, but space out the moment I look at the computer screen. This is work that I really enjoy and want to do!

    1. Gigi*

      Oh, friend. I feel this deeply. I’m also ADHD and diagnosed as an adult. Working from home SUCKS. All of the tools I’ve spent 15 years developing are gone and I had to start again. I strongly recommend getting an ADHD counselor to help you with strategies and see if you would be a good candidate for medication. (I was on it, now I’m not, everyone is different.) I found mine on https://www.zencare.co/. They can help you find someone who will work with you online and take your insurance.

      I’m a woman and got a lot out of the work of Sari Solden. Her research focuses on how ADHD specifically affects women. What’s most important is that you stop trying to stuff yourself into a neurotypical box when you are neurodivergent. There are ways to be successful and even benefits you bring to the job because of how your brain works. I’m still working on not beating myself up for not operating like everyone else does, but it’s a worthwhile project. Good luck to you!

    2. Always Late to the Party*

      I’ve had (and still have) similar issues. Things that have helped me:

      – Taking a walk when I feel distracted like that (I’ve seen in several places that even folks quarantining can take walks if you leave your mask on the whole time and stay away from people as much as possible – of course do your own research/use your best judgement)
      – Starting my day with my Panda Planner (a bullet journal would also work) – I write out my schedule and my priorities for the day. Some days it’s just one or two things like Stay Hydrated and Complete Llama Report. Even on light meeting days I block out “work time” and “home time”.
      – Putting on a music playlist and telling myself I’m going to force myself to focus on one task for the length of one song – usually this kicks hyperfocus into gear. If you can’t focus with music, you could set a timer for three minutes.
      – Can you break down what you’re working on in any way? I don’t think I understand what you do, but if there’s a way to say “today I am only going to investigate the Teapots section of the domain” or something like that. It sounds like you don’t have much structure – can you create it for yourself?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        On the timer, yes — I’m a big fan of “I can do anything for three minutes” and there’s a non-zero chance that by the time I get through the three minutes, I’m into it firmly enough that it sticks for a while and I get shit done.

      2. Learning to Breathe*

        Impossible to break the task down any further, unfortunately, which is probably why I’m struggling so much!

        I’m in tech, which is normally a lot easier to break things down, but the complexity of the current project plus my newness means things are expected to be confusing for a while. Think of it like being told to move something from point A to point B, but you don’t know where point B is, and to get there you have to go through a maze that might take you to point B or might take you to yet another maze. Once you’ve mastered the mazes, it’s easier to know the turns and exits to take, but until that point you’re just kinda wandering around trying to build a mental map.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          I referenced something like this in my wall-o-text below, but I will brain dump when I’m in this situation. I’ll keep a document open in OneNote, but you could use any program you prefer, or even paper for this.

          I will write where I am, and where I’m going. I write down my “known unknowns”. I write down what I’ve searched for, maybe summarize what I’ve found and/or how it relates to everything else. I’ll copy links to useful sites. I’ll make notes when I hit a dead end, and highlight when I’ve found something helpful. If I’m digging through old code, I’ll make a note of potentially relevant method names, and possibly swear at whoever wrote the mess.

          More or less, document your attempts to get through the maze, especially the bits that DON’T work so you can skip that bit in the future.

          1. OtterB*

            This. I wrote something similar below, except I always use pen & paper for some reason – but online would be really helpful for links and such.

        2. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

          You can always break a task down further. Suppose you were not struggling with concentration — that you could just sit down and get to work. What would you do? That’s your next subtask.

          If you don’t know what your next subtask is, then your next subtask is to figure it out! Write down a list of all the things you could possibly do next to advance the project. Then pick one and get started. If it’s too big, repeat the above steps until you get something well-defined that you can actually do next, preferably something that has a specifiable “done” state .

          I know this sounds a little “just do it” and I totally don’t mean it that way — I have trouble with concentration too, and what I’m trying to convey here are the steps I use to get myself going on big, amorphous projects, and what I advise my reports to do. I hope it’s helpful.

      3. Damn it, Hardison!*

        Second the recommendations for timers and music (if not too distracting). The last few days I’ve been listening to the same song over and over pretty much all day and it has helped me focus. Electronic dance music seems to work best for me. I also bought Mooas cube timers from Amazon. They are set to increments of 10, 20, 30, 50, or 60 minutes, and beep when time is up. When I start something I’m struggling with I set it to 10 or 20 minutes, and usually find that when it goes off I’m engaged and reset it for a longer duration to continue. Or if it’s something I might get too in the weeds on, I set it for 30 minutes and when it goes off, I move on to the next thing. It’s helping, but I’m still struggling at staying on task some days.

    3. Mental Lentil*

      I like the pomodoro technique. It’s usually 25/5 minutes, but you can go 10/2 minutes or 15/3 or whatever works for you to get you on track.

      1. Mantis Toboggan, MD*

        Most of my jopb is working independently on large research projects with no firm deadline. The struggle is real. I use pomodoro and track each 25-minute unit on my calendar. I set reasonable daily and weekly goals of total work units.

      2. Reba*

        I have the pomodoro plug in on my web browser! I don’t use it constantly but when I’m struggling it’s a lifesaver and helps me reset.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Timers and rewards.

      First, set the environment to be enjoyable and have a small luxury – background music, comfy seat, favorite socks, colored lights, whatever puts a smile on your face.

      Set the work timer, when it goes off immediately set the break timer so you don’t forget to resume.

      During the break, get up and away from the screen.

      After a certain number of successful work intervals, get a small n0n-screen reward. (Cup of favorite tea, some music, or a snack).

    6. Ashley*

      To do lists help me and then add the reward factor. I must do these 2 items and then a break or snack, etc.
      Full daily goals like today I will do these ten things before I finish working for the day can also help. (I am assuming there isn’t hourly clocking in requirements here.)

    7. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Adult woman with ADHD diagnosed as an adult here. These are some things that have helped me, presented as some things to pick and choose from if they sound helpful.

      – Caffeine is your friend, in moderation. I am a tea drinker, which helps keep me away from sugary colas. But when I really need an hour or two of hyperfocus, I will go for cola anyway.
      – Move. Get up at least once an hour or so and walk around, even if it’s just around the room you’re in. Have a fidget toy at your desk (mine’s a VW Beetle matchbox car). Maybe try one of those under the desk peddlers?
      – Change your workspace a little. Is there anyway you can convert your setup so you sit rather than stand to do your work? (I miss my standing desk.)
      – Pomodoro sprints, as Mental Lentil mentioned. Working any length of time is better than not working.
      – Introduce distractions (so long as they aren’t too distracting). I like music, some people like to have the TV on, looking out my window sometimes helps. Basically, give your brain additional inputs that you don’t have to do anything with.
      – Write down what’s in your brain. I keep a OneNote document open at work specifically for this. It’s stream of consciousness, what I’m looking for, what I’m looking at, what is making no sense whatsoever. Also good for getting those draft emails out of my brain some place where I don’t have to impress anyone with them.
      – There’s some expressions “The perfect is the enemy of the good” and “Done is better than perfect”. I’m personally fond of “It’s not just good, it’s good enough”. I’m not sure if my perfectionist tendencies are related to the ADHD or not, but they definitely contribute to my procrastination.

      Also, regarding the asthma – could you get a small indoor air purifier and run it in your home? If dry air bothers you, could you run a humidifier?

      1. Learning to Breathe*

        Distractions were what was missing! Thank you! I just did more in the past hour than I have in days!

        Music / TV weren’t doing the trick for me, but I found an playlist of office background noise and boom – could suddenly focus! I guess I needed something to ignore. This also explains why I never get any work done in normal office environments until my other coworkers start showing up. Hadn’t put that together!

      2. meyer lemon*

        This list of tips has contributed to my theory that I might secretly have ADHD, because these are all things I have to do to focus as well (except for the caffeine–low tolerance). Thanks for this!

    8. Batgirl*

      It’s a lot worse for me if I’m tired or eating junk, or unrested so I have a strict sleep/cooking/relaxing off duty routine. I do a fast few mins yoga routine in the morning too, just to get me focused.
      I tend to start with the easier, faster jobs first (with rewards for each completion, usually just ‘now I can have a cuppa’) until I get motivated into work mode. I use noise cancelling headphones with purple noise (don’t like white noise and find music too distracting; though music can be a good timer in other contexts for me). I alternate between ‘talk to people about work’, boring admin tasks and creative tasks so as to keep things mixed up and moving. I make sure to stop for lunch. I second what everyone is saying about timers/pomodoro/rewards. They are my bread and butter approach. Oh and make sure you have a check list to strike things off/tick completed items. Seems to work every time and whenever I go without it, I do less.

    9. OtterB*

      It won’t help with all tasks, but with your example of “learn about the domain by investigating what we have,” instead of just thinking about it, can you talk or write through it? Do the rubber duck thing (explain your programming problem out loud to a rubber duck; it’s amazing how often that shakes loose a solution). For me, I work well in writing, so I’ll start with a notepad and make a list of questions/findings, essentially talking to myself in writing. Things like, where does X come from in this process, oh, we pick it up from the monthly report … why does Y matter? … I see what they’re doing with Z-1 but I don’t understand Z-2 … oh, okay, Y matters because it’s used to do this and that … writing it down makes it more concrete and helps me focus instead of charging off in a dozen directions.

    10. Kiki*

      I’m really similar. Left to my own devices, I do a lot of pacing and randomly getting up to do non-essential tasks. I’ve have found that, counterintuitively, adding a low-level distraction helps me work. I like to have a TV show I have already seen playing in the background. I know data shows that multi-tasking doesn’t work, but I’m not really watching the TV at all, I just am replacing the incessant noise of my tireless brain with a mindless sitcom.

    11. cleo*

      I feel this so hard.

      One thing that’s working for me right now is zoom co-working. A buddy of mine who’s also in tech (that I do not work with) and I will set up a zoom call when neither of us have meetings and just work on our own tasks with our cameras on. It’s the pandemic equivalent to meeting a friend at the library or in a coffeeshop to work. There’s something about hearing and seeing another human being working that helps me stay focused.

      I also take a morning “fake commute” walk. After breakfast, I take a short walk (some days shorter than others) and then come in and go straight to my desk and start working.

    12. hallucinating hack*

      Ah, I feel this so hard. I’ve never been diagnosed, but task transition has always been a major issue for me. I do the exact same thing as you right down to the pacing/zoning out vs going like a house on fire once I get started. Getting started though…

      What works for me on particularly bad days is extreme chunking. I’m a writer and my work doesn’t have much of a task checklist either…so I made one! Consisting of the exact tiny actions I need to take: (1) sit down at desk (2) line up keyboard in front of me (3) start up word processing program (4) open new document (5) type “Header:” on new paragraph (6) type “Strap” on new paragraph etc. Sometimes I spend time actually writing the steps up into a checklist just to force my mind into the right frame.

      It took me a while to identify all the above steps as the places where I get stuck, but starting work got a lot easier with that awareness. I do the same thing for getting back to work post-distraction: sit down in chair, line up keyboard, open what I was last doing, etc.

      On days when I feel too low energy to get started, I use the image of a foot pressing an accelerator in my head. It mostly works, but if not, caffeine is the fallback.

  13. Jo*

    Can someone give me a script to use with a person who is more senior to me and a technical consultant/approver I need to work with quite closely on a regular basis to say:

    “Please dont say that I’ve been involved in this project when you ignored most of my input and the standard of work you’ve sent out is awful (by my standards)?”

    I think this person thinks they are doing me a favour by getting my name out there to senior leadership – but what they’ve sent is nowhere near the quality of work I would ever send out (even for a draft), didnt take much of the input I provided into account and they didnt tell me in advance that they were going to be doing any of this. I was very much under the impression we were still going to go through a few rounds of iteration before sending it out to others.

    Note, this was more of a backburner project that I had picked up because it was interesting for me/good for my development and they had said they didnt have time to do. Its more business focused (which I have experience in) vs technical (which they have experience in). Mitigating factor: I’m relatively new to the company while they have been here for 20 years, so maybe this is normal by their standards?

    Bonus question: if you have scripts for “this is actually really terrible, can we bin it and start from scratch?” that I can save for future use, that would be great. My chance to use if for this project has probably sailed, but I feel like this might come up again.

    1. MeTwoToo*

      Nothing for the first, but for the second I like “This really isn’t turning out like we envisioned and I know we can come up with something better. Let’s go back to the drawing board and correct some of these deficiencies together.”

    2. TPS reporter*

      Please don’t acknowledge me as a contributor unless I otherwise give explicit permission. Sometimes my contribution is very brief so I don’t feel that this reflects my work product. If you would like to include my name, please schedule time for us to review and co-edit the presentation or documentation prior to sending to senior leadership.

      1. Firecat*

        If I acknowledged a Jr employees work and got this result… I’d be pretty peeved.

        Also is it possible that this is a great for our needs but not ‘A+’ quality issue? I know I struggled at work with ‘good enough’ being the preferred compared to the caliber I am use to turning in.

        1. TPS reporter*

          to be fair, the OP’s reputation is potentially being ruined by this person. The OP has to be able to stand up for themselves and not have to tiptoe around certain people just because they are more senior.

    3. Qwerty*

      Since you mention being relatively new, what about asking the senior coworker for more insight on what the process is? It sounds like the two of you were on different pages for how much more review time was going to be spent on that, so it could be useful to understand that disconnect first. I’ve worked with some people in leadership who really want the rough version of information so they can act on it sooner, rather than wait for it to be polished up to a draft level, so its possible that he was asked for that level of quality. Or was told to just send over whatever he had so far and move on. Or maybe what the two of you produced was actually nicer than his previous work, despite it seeming low quality to you.

      If you have work closely with this person, getting more closely aligned on when something is ready might be a more productive approach. I really can’t think of a nice way to say “I don’t want to be associated with your work” that won’t be offputting, so what’s a different goal that would improve things? Maybe ask that you both sign off on it before it gets sent out? Or at least have the same understanding of the timeline?

      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, I think this is the approach to take. If you weren’t going to work with him again, I’d just probably let it drop, but since you’ll be working this can be a good learning experience. Maybe you’ll learn that this is how its done, maybe you’ll learn this guy is odd, but yeah you don’t want say “Your work is terrible!” Be curious and see where you can better fit in the process. Could be of good benefit to both of you or at least make it so you are better prepared for next time.

    4. Malarkey01*

      Ohhh don’t say your script. Even though I get you want to, that will burn bridges so bright,y you’ll see them from the parking lot.

      There’s two different takes on this depending on how high up they are and how the project was established. If they are pretty senior and you didn’t have any responsibility for the project, you can go to your manager with “I wanted to talk to you about Fred’s project. I initially contributed some ideas but he took it in a different direction and it’s not reflective of my position or work”…then they can give you insight on how to proceed in your specific office culture or can make sure you aren’t tagged with this.

      However if this was a project you were assigned and had shared responsibility for, you really need to address that you’re on different tracks and pull management in on that if you are really stuck. Washing your hands of it can really be a hit against your reputation. At that point I think you can go back and say Fred I’ve gotten some feedback and we need to make some changes on this (and pull in management if you can’t get Fred’s cooperation or are at an impasse).

  14. Large Hippo*

    Has anyone here done inside sales? I have a phone interview next week with a position with a tech company. I’d love to get into tech and am hoping this can be my way in, but I’m really nervous about a sales job with quotas. I’ve done sales before but not the kind of sales where I had to cold call and make pitches and worry about not making a goal. Any insight or advice is appreciated!

    1. Roy G. Biv*

      Yep – inside sales experience here, but very little cold calling was involved. It is my experience that you have to have a thick skin, and shake off the “no” answer 20 times, because that one customer who says “yes” is such a victory. Like it puts all the wind back in your sails. (sales?) And be self starter to keep on task no matter what, because discouragement and distractions abound. Slipping below your monthly sales quota can set you on a downward trajectory that is difficult to overcome. Not impossible, just difficult. I would also ask for a more senior rep who can be your mentor as you learn the ins and outs — and not just someone who says things like “make more calls.” Someone who can help you understand the psychology of the customer, and how to identify hidden potential opportunity in what a customer says. And work on making your pitch sound natural to how you speak. A script can be a good starting point, but I never read one that sounded like an actual sales rep speaks.

      1. potatocakes*

        Great advice here! I’m envious you didn’t have to cold call…did you have a lead generation/marketing department who prospected for you?

        1. Roy G. Biv*

          Yep. Also niche market with few competitors, so customers tend to return for next generation products.

    2. potatocakes*

      I work in inside sales.

      I’ll be honest, if you’re considering just using a sales position as an entry point to get into the tech industry: don’t. Sales is a career path on it’s own and it’s really not a job you want to do for a year or two while you wait for a position more relevant to your interests come up.

      To enjoy sales, you have to want to be doing it, and have the correct mindset/personality for it. I believe anyone can learn how to make a cold call and walk a prospect through the sales process, but the number of people who not only do it well and enjoy it are very few.

      Inside sales roles almost always involve cold calling, and lots of it. Think about whether you’d be happy making 80-100 cold calls a day, most of them ending up in voicemail or rejections. Most people are decent, but you will have someone who’s totally rude and disrespectful at least once every few days.

      To successfully pitch a prospect, you’ll have to be ok with asking a ton of questions, doing presentations (depending on your company it could be by phone, in person, or Zoom,) negotiating rates, and again…most pitches will end up in rejections. A good closing rate in my company is about 30%. For every 10 pitches you make, seven of them will not happen, and this is after you’ve spent hours working on the deal. Sometimes the prospect lies to you or outright stops responding and ghosts, and then you have to start all over cold calling someone new.

      Quotas and meetings goals is really all you’re measured on in a sales focused atmosphere. Of course, good sales managers will value effort and a good attitude, but at the end of the day if you aren’t making the company money, they aren’t going to keep you around for long. Also, you need to be ok with being compared (often publicly) to your colleagues. Most sales teams have everyone’s numbers and goals displayed for the entire team to see. This is great for people who get motivated by competition, but awful for people who aren’t.

      Sales people usually earn a small salary, with the company expecting them to earn the rest of their compensation in commission. You must be ok with the fact that you’ll have some crappy months where you’re waiting for deals to close and living off a meager salary until you’re well established at the company and have a steady stream of deals coming.

      Overall sales requires a very thick skin, at least some degree of extroversion, confidence (or at least a strong ability to fake it til you make it,) excellent time management skills, the ability and desire to work more than 40 hours/week without getting paid overtime and a naturally competitive nature.

      It might not sound like I enjoy my job, but I do! I love talking to people, the variety in my day, the feeling of getting to help people purchase a product that suits them, and of course the commission I earn for my good efforts. However, it is NOT for everyone.

      Happy to answer any other questions you may have!

      1. Roy G. Biv*

        Potatocakes — That is a great summary! Overall sales requires a very thick skin, at least some degree of extroversion, confidence (or at least a strong ability to fake it til you make it,) excellent time management skills, the ability and desire to work more than 40 hours/week without getting paid overtime and a naturally competitive nature.

      2. Large Hippo*

        this is *so* helpful – thank you! I do believe in the product but also know the target audience is made up of people who have very little free time to talk and can be a little rough around the edges. The fear of getting fired for not meeting quotas is what makes me nervous about a job in sales and has been what’s always kept me away from trying it.

        1. potatocakes*

          No worries!

          The amount of time a company gives for a new person to learn the ropes/get up to speed differs. Any company worth their salt will have a good training/mentor/coaching program to support new reps as much as possible. In a lot of companies, including mine you’ll start off as a Sales Development Rep or Business Development Rep which means you book appointments for the full fledged Sales Rep, and receive sales training during this time. You get promoted to sales if you demonstrate aptitude for the job and meet the quotas in your current position. Of course this isn’t the case for all companies, but it’s nice when it is as it’s a bit less pressure and gives someone new to sales a nice easing in period.

          I don’t know about your personal situation but when I entered sales, I was unemployed and really had nothing to lose by trying it out. If this is your situation, I vote to give it a try. The worst that happens is that you don’t enjoy it and can move on to another position. The best case scenario is that you like it and succeed and get yourself a great new career. If you’d be quitting an existing job for this one however, more consideration is required.

          Hope this helped.

  15. Ann O*

    How do I take more ownership as a middle manager?

    This was some feedback I received in my recent annual review, and the examples given suggested that I was pushing too much ownership to my direct reports instead of owning those areas myself. (Note, I was praised in the same review for how I handle my own projects as an individual contributor.) In theory, I totally understand that I am ultimately responsible for my department and for my direct reports. But in practice, I’m not sure exactly what that means in tangible steps. My internet research on this topic found mostly high-level and nebulous ownership ideals. And a lot of the articles were about how to get front-line employees to take more ownership, which is the opposite of what my boss is asking for.

    1. Emma Woodhouse*

      Without knowing the specifics, I wonder if this could be solved with “roadmap” emails. I’m a middle manager and a big believer in letting the people below me have ownership of their projects; I’m in professional services so I’m also an individual contributor. Basically it’s serving as air traffic control and quality control at the same time – I compile a list of all deliverables in one email with the individual drafting, who will be reviewing (me or someone else), and the deadline. It’s more about project management and less about micromanagement.

      1. In my shell*

        @Emma This is outstanding advice! I’m not OP for this question, but that really helped me with a struggle I’m having! Thanks!

    2. Qwerty*

      Can you elaborate on what it looks like when your direct reports own something? When you pass along something to a direct report, are you still in the loop and able to speak about the status / successes / shortcomings of the project?

      From outside of your time, it shouldn’t be obvious which team member is the main contributor for each project. I would expect you to the central point of contact and relaying the relevant information. If Fergus is handling a project, how much does his name come up in meetings? Are you responding to questions about the project with “I’d have to ask Fergus” or bringing him along to most meetings on the topic? If Fergus misses a deadline, who gets blamed to your boss? How involved are you in the major decisions on the project?

      As a middle manager, I consider myself responsible for everything in my scope. To external stakeholders, I take all blame (then handle it internally) but give praise when someone does something well. I need to be able to speak knowledgably about all of the projects that I’m in charge of, regardless of my contribution levels. I’m involved in the hard decisions for the projects, even when I’m just following the recommendations of the people running them, and sign off on the large items.

      1. Ann O*

        I really agree with your last paragraph. I take blame, give credit, and stay apprised of how things are going. I’m not usually in the weeds or know all the details, though. I’ve seen my role as more about providing support and coaching, communicating organizational strategy and vision, setting expectations and setting employees up for success.

        One thing I should clarify is that we’re in a small business, so we usually have just one employee in each function, instead of a whole department. One person for accounting, one for IT, one for marketing, etc. Cross training is essential so people can actually take time off, but otherwise the one person is generally responsible for processes and projects in their area. I rely on my direct reports for their expertise, as my own education and experience is mostly in just one of the four areas that I oversee. I don’t think my boss is asking me to be super involved in the day to day for each of these areas, but I’m also not exactly sure what I can do to take more ownership?

        1. Qwerty*

          Have you checked in with your reports for feedback and if there is anything you can do to support them better? Maybe there is something in your blind spot or a specific situation that led to the ownership comment.

          If you don’t really understand what your boss is looking for, ask them to be more specific. Ownership can mean slightly different things to different people, so it would probably easier if they can point to a certain behavior they are looking for or a situation that could have been handled differently. Or if nothing immediately comes to your boss’s mind, she bring it up / coach you next there is a situation where she’d like to see more ownership.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would start with what is your process for when your subordinates hit a problem, snag or roadblock? How do you respond to that? This should be a long answer because it’s such a broad question in that there are all kinds of issues that can pop up.

      Another question I’d ask myself is do your subordinates know what is under their watch and what things are under your watch? Have you been clear what your responsibilities are to them?
      I remember one job where we had a Random Issue recur and recur. Because it was random it was really hard to trouble shoot what was going on. Finally, the problem became a focus of a department meeting. In the course of that meeting some previously unmentioned facts got dragged out of us. Once these facts were in the open the boss, exclaimed, “Well, no wonder you guys are having trouble here. This is MY problem to handle NOT yours. You all are not authorized. So what I want everyone to do is when they see X happen, just come get me. I will handle things from there.”
      There was an audible collective sigh of relief.
      Subordinates should be informed of what they should pass on to you, for you to handle.

      In general terms, each of your subordinates should know what their job is and what the company expects out of them. If your direct reports have their own direct reports, they are dependent on your coaching to relay basic info regarding policies and expectations to their own people.
      There are two components here:
      They must have a good understanding of the work at hand so they can successfully do the job.
      They must also have a clear understanding of what company policies and rules are so they can KEEP their jobs.

      As an aside, because your boss has failed to be specific about what you should buoy up here, I am really giving your boss the side eye on this one. Ironically, I have to say, try not to be the failure your boss is here. Ugh. I am so sorry your boss is so vague.

  16. Anonnyforthisone*

    My company has IBM Notes. It’s clunky and outdated, especially compared to other email clients.

    What other outdated tech or tools does your company use that you can’t stand? What would you prefer instead?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Some of the tools I can’t stand the most are the brand new ones! Just because they’re “cool” doesn’t mean they’re functional.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our billing system (for the largest health care system in the state) is a text-based telnet program that was written in *checks* 1989.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I’m kind of impressed that the IT folks can still manage to get the upstream systems (which are newer) to feed into it properly, and then for it to feed back out to our (also newer) claims management systems.

          Also, both the claims management systems we’ve used since I started working here are absolutely terrible, in totally different ways, but the current one is the worst. I have a little knick-knack on my desk that’s Gus-Gus and Jaq, the mice from Cinderella, in a teacup, because we joke that the claims management software is powered by tiny drunken mice who keep falling off their treadmills or running the wrong way, and we named the CMS mike Gus-Gus and Jaq as a result.

    3. Lyudie*

      Oracle. Dear lord, Oracle. I don’t know what else is out there and how they compare for managing time off, but we used to have SuccessFactors for performance reviews and it was so much nicer. At least we no longer have to do time sheets in Oracle. That was excruciating. I might dislike Clarity but it’s better than Oracle’s time sheets by a mile.

      1. Lyudie*

        Also as a former IBMer I am snorting at the Notes thing. It’s been years since I’ve used it but I gather it is not any less clunky these days.

      2. Wendy City*

        Just had a full-body flashback to filling out time-tracking sheets in Oracle, good god that was awful.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I know of a person who ended up in therapy because of trying to deal with all the stuff with Oracle. smh.

    4. Anon for this*

      Tech Company:

      Fax Machine. There’s absolutely no reason for us to have this except we have the occasional technophobe customer who prefers fax to being on a computer and they’re only beginning to realize these customers cost us more than they’re worth.

      Also we just got ride of lotus notes.

    5. Rotherham Sleepy Hollow*

      I personally think that Notes is underrated, and some of the hate is unnecessary. Many features in Notes still do not exist elsewhere, e.g.the format box and the colapasble section “Twisty”, and the “Send and move copy to folder” function in the e-mail client. It becomes a repository for lots of little applications, like a hire car request/authorisation/booking system, and access to these applications is just a matter of sending a link. No local software needs installing.

      This is Note’s real problem: If competently set up it just works. It becomes hard to justify migrating applications away from it when they continue to work just fine.One company has been attempting to migrate away from Notes for 10 years; some business critical applications are over 20 years old. The version of the desktop client is over 12 years old.

    6. anon for this*

      we’re currently running an ERP older than I am. and I just turned 40. our “newest” one was installed around when I graduated from college.

    7. Msnotmrs*

      I’m a librarian. We’re transitioning our circulation software (the computer program that checks books in and out) from one called LibrarySoft, which is the most bare-bones circ software I have ever seen. It was designed specifically to be used in secure institutions (like prisons), so it basically does nothing except hold patron data and basic info (title of book, author). You can’t make any sort of lists, the search function is junk, no display pictures or biographical info of authors or anything like that.

      We’re transitioning to Follett, which is what most school libraries use. It’s a Plato’s cave situation–I didn’t know how blind I was until I was led outside.

    8. NotMyRealName*

      We only just stopped typing purchase orders in the last 5 years. I still have a typewriter in my office for some state regulatory forms. I wish more of them would send me fillable PDFs.

      1. Owler*

        Are you allowed to convert it to an editable pdf yourself? I do that all the time with school forms. It’s built into Macs, and one can probably download an app for other devices (I used to do this on my PC all the time.).

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Not in my current company, but at an old job we used Visual Source Safe for a certain significant part of the code base long after it was “obsolete” and had been superseded by TFS as it was at the time!

      Also: I have never yet come across a good “ticketing” system (like for managing IT Support tickets, requests, incidents, etc). Even when current technology they all seem clunky and have an outdated kind of mental model about them. I don’t know why it is so difficult to write a good ticketing system that does the basics (categorise a request, workflow/approval, notifications, basic reporting) successfully! (I’m not in charge of this in my company so no need for suggestions, but curious if anyone else has encountered this.)

    10. Cheesesticks*

      WOW!! I thought I worked at the last holdout company that used Notes. I do miss Sametime. Miss being able to use my own emoji’s. Skype is just not as fun.

    11. Minimal Pear*

      You know how computers used to be black screens with green text and you mostly used key commands to navigate? We use a program that STILL works like that.

      1. noahwynn*

        I work for an airline, we have a lot of programs that still work this way in the background, even if the front-end has been updated to a newer GUI. Some obscure things are only possible in the old text and some things are just way faster as text only instead of the GUI, so it is still used.

    12. Dr. Anonymous*

      We use a version of medical dictation software that is so outdated that the voice recognition algorithm was last updated in 2011. We’re supposed to move to the current version (checks watch) 18 months ago, or maybe next month.

      We compile a list of hilarious mis-transcriptions once a year. Many of them get caught before they end up in the patient’s chart. Because doctors are human, all of them do not.

    13. Donkey Hotey*

      Oh, don’t get me started. Our company uses an inventory/scheduling/billing system that is DOS based. It gets better because the guy who coded it for us can only ever do remote tech support because (wait for it), he lives in Mexico now and can’t return to the US. Bonus: Our 75-yo CFO is also our lead IT guy, so any tech upgrade is always seen through the lens of “but that will (gasp!) cost money!”

    14. Workerbee*

      We have a server holding years of files because leadership doesn’t like the cloud.
      We also have one team with a hornet’s nest of Google docs with varying levels of permissions, most of which have no categorization, and more are added all the time. Even the person who created the doc can’t find it a few weeks later. Meetings are held on what to do about it. I have solutions,p. Nobody wants to try them.
      The icing is that Google Drive is only supposed to be for temporary working files, and the final version is supposed to be stored on the server. This happens perhaps 2% of the time, and the document on Google is still never removed.

    15. allathian*

      I just wish we’d get rid of Skype and switch to Teams already, although I realize this is a minor nit. My issue with Skype is its lack of decent collaborative tools and the horrible sound quality even with a good headset.

      I’ve never been happier at work than I was six years ago, when we got rid of a legacy working hours tracker. I had to set up an Excel worksheet to convert our working hours and minutes to hours and decimals. A totally useless admin task that took at least an hour every month to complete.

    16. mreasy*

      We use Airtable, which I think would be fine if anyone who built them over the years had adequate training…as it is theyre impenetrable.

  17. reject187*

    So, before I graduated college, I got fired from a pizza job because I wasn’t doing the things they didn’t train me for. Now I’m a teacher. I’ve never been fired from a teaching job. Is it unethical of me to check the “never been fired” box on application forms?

    1. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I was fired from a grocery clerk position when I was in my teens, and I don’t check that box. Its been over 15 years. I’ve kinda considered it for more professional jobs. That said, if you feel morally questionable about, you could check it and just be prepared to explain why.

    2. Zephy*

      Is the pizza job on your resume, like is there any chance someone is going to contact them for a reference? Are you applying for a government job where you have to list every job you’ve ever had in the history of the world?

      1. pancakes*

        Those are the key questions, I think. Otherwise it doesn’t seem to be within the scope of what anyone asking wants to know about.

    3. Doctor is In*

      If you are going to be totally honest, check yes. How long ago was the pizza job? Are you including it on your application? Keep in mind that falsifying anything can be job-ending if you get found out.

    4. Malika*

      I once got fired from an ice cream parlour because i didn’t have the required arm strength. I don’t put this anywhere on my applications. I have also had contracts not be extended, I just say when asked we didn’t see it working out longterm.

      I wouldn’t lie about my history, but i also don’t need to jeopardize my chances by dwelling on the more unfortunate stuff in my working history. I don’t think you need to either.

    5. story time*

      Six years ago, I applied for a job that had a “Have you ever been terminated?” box. The honest response would have been to check that box, because, 17 years earlier, I was fired from my first job out of college. It was a small, dysfunctional company, where the boss was quick to fire people, and I was naive and struggling with mental health issues. Out the door I went.

      Seventeen years later, I did *not* disclose I had been terminated. I got the job, and today, I am still at the same company. I have “aced” every performance evaluation, and my colleagues seem to like me very much.

      I think such boxes are ridiculous, and I have strong negative feelings against them. One part of the absurdity is that there are no time limits to the question; that is, it doesn’t matter how long ago the termination was. I also take issue because, in the US at least, employment is largely at will — you could be fired after making one minor mistake, or you could be fired because you have an irrational boss. We had a letter here from someone who was fired after standing up to the employers for their policy of literally making low-performers wear dunce caps. That person would now have to indicate that firing, allowing no nuance or context, on applications.

      I won’t speak about getting caught, but when it comes to risks, I feel zero guilt, zero shame, and if I could go back in time I would absolutely do it again.

    6. reject187*

      Thanks everyone. Just kind of confirms my thoughts – the pizza job has nothing to do with my professional career, it’s been over 10 years, I don’t list it on my resume and teaching generally asks you to list your teaching jobs. I’ve never been fired from a teaching job, and the experience wasn’t one that I’d gladly bring up during an interview.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      The purist answer is they didn’t ask “have you ever been fired from a teaching job?” they asked “have you ever been fired”. (I expect many more people than you think have been fired at some point!) I think especially with a job like teacher that has a lot of responsibility it’s better to be honest.

    8. Anonymous for this one*

      I just had this come up today and first checked no, then decided on honesty and checked yes with my explanation. It was 17 years ago, I was there for a few months, and it was my one and only deeply dysfunctional workplace. Honesty is one of my highest personal values and I didn’t want to violate that for myself, but I deeply resent being put in the position to make that decision. I may regret it.

    9. meyer lemon*

      Those check boxes are extremely frustrating. Should everyone who’s been fired at any point in their lifetime, regardless of the reason, have to wear a scarlet letter forever? I would be inclined to answer it in the spirit that is most reasonable, and if it comes up in an interview, give the more nuanced version of the answer. They should really phrase this question better so they don’t end up filtering out candidates for no good reason.

    10. Anono-me*

      It’s a ridiculous question. And I can see an ethical argument to be made either way. But the question might be what is practical and in your best interest? If you answer “No.” and a background check finds the pizza place – a government job (a public school) could have ‘rule’ that means trouble for you.

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        Worth pointing out, there’s a big difference in federal government jobs and municipal government jobs in terms of the application process. I’d anticipate that very literal, thorough background check for the former, but the process for the latter will vary.

  18. Sunflower*

    Is anyone here an executive coach or works in a training role like this? I am interested in doing something like this but it seems there are some negative connotations online. I’d be interested in going into corporations and teams as opposed to being a ‘life coach’ of sorts.

    1. Malika*

      Are you good at networking? Because if so, it’s a very good idea if you have the requisite experience. Someone I know makes more money part-time with coaching, than being a harried full-time executive. You need to put yourself out there though and be prepared to work on that visibility regularly.

  19. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

    Good News Today! I got a new job!
    The position I interviewed for a few weeks back offered me the job, but it was only 32 hours a week. I politely declined, saying that’s not something I could afford to do. They said, “let us talk to the board to make it a 40 hour position.”
    And then they made it full time!

    AHHHHHHHH yayayyyaayayay!

    Its slightlllly less pay, but more doors will be open to me. And a better title, AND better benefits. And, with my vacation payout from my current job, I will make the difference up for the first year.

    I’m so excited.

  20. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

    I manage a prominent service across a large public library system, supervise a small staff that provide this service, and work at the always-busy main branch. My stress level is through the roof right now and for the sake of my long- and short-term health, I need to do something to change this.

    An assistant manager position opened up at the quietest branch in the system. It has a great staff and is in a sleepy neighborhood where I can walk to the beach at lunchtime. On paper, it’s a much easier gig for the same salary. Ideally, I’d like to apply.

    What gives me a lot of hesitation is that my interest isn’t going to add up for the decision-makers. The assistant manager position is normally geared toward librarians with 2-3 years under their belt who will be first-time library managers; I have 15 years in and have already managed for seven. I’ve faced what will likely be the same panel to interview (unsuccessfully) for three much more prominent full-manager roles in the past 18 months. Yet this position would technically be a lateral move (I hold a unique position within my library system that is administratively equal to assistant branch manager), but for all intents and purposes, a considerable step backwards. 

    The regional managers are likely to be surprised to see my application and if I were them, I’d really wonder why I was suddenly applying for a blatantly easier job when I’ve previously applied for some pretty high-profile jobs across the system. How do you think I should approach this in the interview?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I think the first question I’d ask is whether you’ve talked to someone above you about your stress levels and what you can reasonably do about them? If you’ve taken action in that regard, I think it’s reasonable to say, “The job I’m currently working is much too stressful. I’d like to stay with this organization, but I’d prefer to do so in another role.”

      1. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

        Thank you. The folks I have spoken to have been sympathetic but ultimately dismissive as far as what they can do. I can’t blame them; everyone’s stress levels are out of control right now.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          If “everyone’s stress levels are out of control right now” maybe the solution isn’t to change jobs. You’d have the stress “everyone has” plus the stress of learning a new job. So how about an alternate solution. Is there something you can do to manage your stress levels? I find that a quick “shoot-em-up” video game or spending some time reading does it for me, and if worse comes to worse I’ll invest a couple days in lying on the bed meditation, but YMMV. Maybe the solution isn’t to change jobs, but to invest some time in learning better ways to manage stress?

            1. a librarian manager*

              Lets look at the positives- Can you answer the interview questions so that it spins in a positive direction?
              Are there parts of the Assistant Manager job that you yearn to do? Is it a super great fit for the work.
              As the supervisor, I would look askance at someone stepping back and then finding they really wanted my job.
              Examine the population of the branch and speak to their needs, programming and collections.
              This is less a job to “coast” but a new opportunity.

    2. Zephy*

      If you’ve already applied for three other roles and been denied for those, it sounds like your library system wants to keep you where you are.

      1. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

        My interviewing skills could be better and for two out of the three positions, I know firsthand that the people they selected for the jobs have a more appropriate skill set to do them, so I can’t totally fault the decision makers, but… that’s ultimately my fear, that the library perceives me as being too valuable in my current role to ever move me. I don’t know if that’s something I can defend against, other than to leave the system altogether. I hope it doesn’t come to that, especially with so few library-related jobs out there right now.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          My suggestion is to let it be known that you are making some life changes or shifts in what you are doing in life. That way this information is out there. It’s vague but it lays some ground work.

          Then when you interview, you can say that you will be making some changes in your life but you would like to stay in the library system you are in. You are interested in the new role because it fits with your new overall life and health plan.

          What I am aiming for here is a subtle message that, you are going to make a change and this is their chance to keep you on in some position. If that is not doable for them, then you will start looking outside the system for other jobs.

    3. Weekend Please*

      It doesn’t sound that odd to me. This is a lateral move on paper. Your eventual goal is the full time manager position. You could say that while you have enjoyed managing Prominent Service, you would like to focus more on the main focus of the library system and manage a branch. It seems clear that you aren’t going to get the management job from your current position so you are making a lateral move to eventually move up to the full-manager role.

      1. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

        Thank you. If questioned, I was thinking that I could say something along the lines that I realized — after interviewing a couple of times for managerial positions — that I might need to take a step back and learn more about branch operations before jumping directly into a full managerial role.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Focus on the positives about the branch and why the staff is great, as well as the ability to get specific branch-management vs service management experience.

      1. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

        Yes, thank you — this is a great point. My skills/knowledge are short in the area of branch management and this would be a great learning opportunity. The only wrinkle is that there’s a culture in my library system that you learn about branch life by starting in the most difficult branches possible, then getting “promoted” to the calmer ones. I don’t think managing a service – even a challenging one – from the main library is going to count, so I’d effectively be doing the opposite and taking a “short cut” here. But we’ll see.

        1. Awkward Interviewee*

          There must be some weird internal politics there, because you’re saying that in some ways it’s a lateral move, in some ways it’s a demotion (but for the same pay), and in some ways it’s a promotion. So maybe think of it more like a lateral move and focus on why you want this job over your current one – such as other commenters’ suggestions of getting more branch experience.

    5. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Former library manager, current front line librarian here!

      My situation felt a little bit like what you’re describing. I was managing a busy, high traffic branch that had been through several staffing issues over the course of about a year, and I was seriously burned out and exhausted and I needed to take a step back for the sake of my own mental health.

      My HR rep and region manager were surprised by my decision, but they understood it, particularly since they knew about the staffing situation that was causing a lot of my stress. You say that everyone you’ve talked to about trying to decrease the stress of your situation has been sympathetic, so it probably won’t feel entirely out of the blue when you make the application.

      In the interview, try and focus on all the ways the smaller, quieter branch can give you positive experience for those high profile jobs. It’s not just the “busy all the time” libraries that give you good experience. At a slower location, you may be able to focus in on specific areas of staff training or programming or community partnerships that you wouldn’t have had time to focus on in your busier work unit. This way, you’re not taking the option of those high profile jobs off the table entirely, you’re pointing out that there are other kinds of experience you can gain that will make you even better at those jobs when the time comes.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I think this is excellent advice. The trick is to frame it as a thing you want and be willing to talk about the professional benefits to you. Goals can change and that’s totally okay.

      2. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

        This is amazing, thank you.

        I’m glad you were able to change your situation!

      3. DragoCucina*

        Yes. Look at what positive you can bring. What you enjoy about librarianship that’s in this position. Almost a year ago I left a director position to start a library for a government agency. I’m a library of one. Yes, I gave up a lot of stress. More importantly I recaptured the joy of working with people to support their information needs. Recapturing that joy is as good as the raise and bonus.

      4. Quinalla*

        Yup, laterals moves are often something folks do to prepare to move up. I think it actually makes sense for you to do this for that reason and it sounds like you have been looking for a change in general, so I don’t think they will be surprised or if they are, easy to explain.

  21. PeachCube*

    I’ve been at my job for 3 months. Unfortunately I was a victim of bait and switch. Job description said I would be a team lead and after I accepted the position, they claimed it was an error. I was upset but I decided to stick it out. I was leaving a highly toxic job to move onto this one. I am once again feeling stuck. I’ve learned everything I need to and I don’t enjoy the job. I have too much downtime. Can I start looking for a new position and tell employers I interview with that the job description didn’t match the role?

    1. Ashley*

      I would think yes assuming your previous jobs were longer stints. Also keep in mind you will likely need to stay at the new job for a few years to show stability on your resume most likely.

    2. I'm just here for the cats*

      This is tricky. How long were you at your toxic job. Was it for a year or more? I think Allison’s advice about short times at jobs bing left off of resumes would work.
      However, if for some reason you want to put the job on your resume and in an interview you get asked why you want to leave your current job I think it would be fine to say something like
      “the role was originally supposed to be X with myself being a team lead as a component. But after being hired the role had changed and there was no team lead component. At this time there is no expectations for a team lead position to open up. I enjoy Y of my current company but I really want to advance to a leadership position. That is why I’m excited about ABC of your company.

    3. Hooray Spreadsheets*

      I think yes. You’ve got a good explanation on why you’re looking again so soon. If you find something quickly you can probably just leave this job off your resume in the future.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I expect a 3month gap to be unremarkable in a pandemic.
        Something to think about for right now, is it possible the pandemic is the reason the team lead component disappeared? Just off the top of my head, your company might have been planning a new venture that had to be cancelled. It could be hard to find this out, because you’ve already questioned people on the matter. You’ll know better than me if it can be done without annoying people in control of your reviews.

        1. PeachCube*

          No, the company was not affected during the pandemic and stated that the team lead portion was an error on their part. I thought I would stick it out to see what growth looked like in the department and unfortunately, even those that have been there for 10+ years still have the same position and responsibilities. I think they put team lead in the JD as bait :(

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Yes. “The job was not what was advertised and I am interested in something more challenging.”

    5. Hunnybee*

      I’m in the exact same situation, although I’ve been at my job for a wee bit longer. I just had to leave the toxic job I was in and took the first thing that came along….and it has nothing, nothing to do with what I was promised.

      I’ve been ACTIVELY interviewing, and I have told recruiters discreetly that my current job doesn’t align with what I was promised, and they have been ok with that. I think a lot of this is about phrasing. I mean, people know that this happens, and as long as we are being professional about how we communicate.

      I have been VERY careful not to say a word about why I left my other toxic job in the first place and don’t talk about it or bring it up in any interview. I think that would start to indicate that I am a job hopper and people do not have empathy for that kind of thing.

      Best of luck!!!!!!!!! I hope that you find something that makes your heart sing and your wallet overflow.

      1. PeachCube*

        I’m so sorry this also happened to you! It’s the worst feeling. I will be upfront and honest about my current job and not complain about the toxic one. I left the toxic one because I thought the new position would be a step up in my career which totally sucks.
        Best of luck to you as well and hope you find a great position very soon!!

  22. Always Late to the Party*

    Can I take a whole sick day to have a crown put in?

    It’s a two hour morning appointment so theoretically I could be back at (remote) work by noon, but I have a sensitive mouth so imagine I’ll be grouchy and sore after, and in general could really use a mental health day. I just took a few vacation days last month, but still I’m very burnt out. My last sick day was in April if that matters.

    My job doesn’t require coverage – there’s a very low chance of someone needing something from me that can’t wait until the next day.

    If I do take the whole day does this message to my team sound ok? “Hi all – Just letting you know I will be offline Thursday for a minor dental procedure. I’ll be back online Friday morning.”

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Hey, it’s your sick day. Sometimes I take a whole day to go to the doctor because I know I’ll be hungry abd cranky before and the doctor might take a long time and I’m a little sore after getting all my blood drawn.

    2. Just a PM*

      Yes. That’s what the time is for. If you have it, use it!

      Your script sounds fine. I would say you don’t even need to tell your team it’s for a dental procedure. Just say “I’ll be out Thursday. Back online Friday. Contact Jill if you need urgent assistance.”

      2. Glitsy Gus*

        All of this. Take the day if you have the PTO available!
        Some offices are kind of over share-ish with the OOO messages, so if that is your office culture what you have is fine, but really, I would be more vague unless that would be very out of step with your culture. Unless it’s very last minute I always put something very generic like what Just a PM has above. It’s none of their business why you are out!

    4. Coenobita*

      YES! Do it, take the whole day. Your message sounds perfect.

      I have done the “it should only take a couple hours, I’ll be back online for the 3pm meeting” thing, and then had way more pain than anticipated, and had to miss the meeting anyway. Take the time you need!

    5. Mental Lentil*

      Yes. And I wouldn’t even be that specific.

      “Just letting you know I will be offline Thursday for a sick day. I’ll be back online Friday morning.”

      It’s a sick day—ain’t nobody’s business what your issue is.

    6. Should I apply*

      That seems completely reasonable to me. I wouldn’t even add the details, I would just say I have an appointment and will be back tomorrow. Is there a reason you think it wouldn’t be appropriate?

      1. Always Late to the Party*

        I think my executive function is just totally fried due to burnout so I’ve built this up in my mind to be a *much* bigger deal than it is. Thank you :)

    8. Okumura Haru*

      Go for it. It’s incredibly common to take a whole day for something like this – nobody will second guess it.
      Also, your message is perfect for communicating that.

    9. Littorally*

      Sounds fine to me!

      When I had my crown put in, the procedure sucked and my mouth felt weird and off-kilter afterward. Depending on the sensitivity of your work, I think it sounds completely reasonable to be vague on the details and just take the day.

      I wouldn’t call it a “minor” dental procedure, since that would make me assume that means getting a filling or something else that’s very brief. A two-hour appointment isn’t minor! No matter what’s being done, that’s a long time to spend with someone’s fingers in your mouth.

    10. Anon for this*

      When I got a crown I was in pain for a whole day, pain killers made me loopy, so I support taking the day off.

    11. Nessun*

      I’d do it. I abhor the dentist, and I’d need the time to recover regardless of how the actual appointment went. It’s your time to use – use it! (I’ve done so in the past, and I’m generally not even that specific about why; just “I have an appointment, I will be back on X morning”)

    12. PT*

      Yes, but if this is your first crown, I’ve had several done and they’re not nearly as bad as everyone says they are! So while you might be sore because you have a sensitive mouth, there is nothing to dread. It’s really no worse than any other dental work.

    14. Grim*

      My wife just had a crown put it and it took 45 minutes. They numbed her prior to installing the crown and she was sore after about 5 hours with no pain the next day.

      But take the day off? Hell yes!

    15. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes. Totally. I have taken a whole day off for a medical thing that took a few hours, because well… I wanted too.

    16. funkydonut*

      You sound burned out and exhausted so I say you take several days to have the procedure and recuperate!

    17. MistOrMister*

      I have taken an entire sick day when I was just having my physical. I usually just make up time around appointments, but sometimes you just a day off and there is nothing wrong with that. When you do it this way, you have the benefit of a mental health day without the guilt (at least for me) of calling out one morning. This way your job gets some notice.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      Oh YES. Yes, yes, yes. If you haven’t taken a sick day in 10 months – take the day.
      And yes, the out of office sounds fine. They don’t know when your appointment is or what it is (because it’s none of their business.)
      T a k e t h e d a y !!!

    19. Always Late to the Party*

      I had to step away but much gratitude to folks for affirming my anxiety about doing this. I will be Taking the Day!!

    20. Bibliovore*

      I always take a full sick day for dental work. I don’t know how I will feel and better not to be responsible for decisions or participation in meetings.
      I learned the hard way when I made an unfortunate decision that impacted others because I wasn’t myself.

  23. JohannaCabal*

    I’m going to be in a position later this year where I may be able to hire entry-level staff. I’ve always found references to be valuable (in spite of a previous company that banned me from reference checking–not surprisingly they got burned by some bad hires).

    I work for a virtual company and as such do not have an office number. Instead, we all have Google Voice numbers that go to our mobile phones. My previous company is still working from home and, from what I hear, likely to make it permanent. To save costs, they’re also considering replacing their phone system with Google Voice numbers for staff.

    All this to say, I wonder if it will make it easier to fake references as more companies are permanent work from home? Previously, I would check references usually by going through their company’s phone line, even if the applicant gave me a mobile (with some exceptions). Potentially, I could have no idea if the number I’m given is going to their former supervisor or a friend who has been coached.

    I’m leaning toward calling the number I’m given and arranging a Zoom video call. That presents other issues.

    Maybe I’m overthinking this?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think you’re overthinking this. Especially for an entry-level position, they’re not really going to have a long track record of work or a lot of references. Plus they’re not (I assume) going to be doing work that requires lots of experience or highly technical skills that a reference could speak to – you’re mostly trying to learn if they have qualities that would make them successful at the role and that they didn’t literally light a match and walk away from their last position (if they even had one).

      And I’d just stick with the phone call, what are you going to learn from seeing someone’s face? The video adds a layer of burden that wouldn’t seem to provide any useful benefit.

      1. JohannaCabal*

        I suppose I’m overthinking it. Years ago, I used to participate on another message board (for a hobby) and on a job hunt thread some of the posters were bragging about using friends and family as fake references. That gives me pause because I have a job I was fired from, and despite it being a three-month stint, I found it difficult to get past it in my subsequent job search (I’d been laid off before that job and leaving it off the resume created a nine-month gap).

        I never considered using a fake reference though.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Decide to listen closely to what is said. People who are telling the truth have details that liars do not have.

          “I could count on Jane to arrive exactly 15 minutes before her shift started every day. She was the most punctual person I have ever seen.”

          “Bob was a real trooper, he did everything that was asked of him and he never acted put out by a request. One time someone dumped grease all over the kitchen floor. Bob was the only one who did not complain and just helped clean it up.”

          Notice how specific the comments get.

        2. Natalien*

          I would be cash money that most people who arrange fake references are doing so for fairly perfunctory reference checks. People aren’t naturally good at improv, they would struggle through an actual back and forth conversation about their “employee”. So have a real conversation with them.

      2. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

        I wonder if they’re asking for more references than is reasonable for an entry-level position. Entry-level folks may not have all that many professional/academic references to begin with, and may not even know that they can provide less-obvious (i.e. non-supervisor) references that aren’t personal. I’ve seen some places ask for five references, and for candidates early in their careers, that’s basically asking them to scrounge up randos or fakes in some cases.

      1. Weekend Please*

        That is what I was going to suggest. Ask for their company email address and use that to set up a phone call. Requiring video could be very off putting.

      2. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

        Absolutely. Given that you’ll get personal phone numbers for some references, people can be tetchy enough about non-work phone calls they’re not expecting that it’s a good idea to give a head’s up and schedule a reference check chat over email.

        Even with email, though, in some cases you might get references’ personal rather than work emails, especially if they’re trying to hide out from their employer’s no-reference policy. Still doesn’t mean they’re fake, though.

    3. Malika*

      You can check their Linkedin beforehand, and see whether their work history overlaps. If you would check my references you would see we overlap at the companies we both work in and that they are therefore legit.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Way over thinking. A fake reference is a fake reference, regardless of how you reach them. The key is to ask certain questions but also to give the benefit of doubt. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think faking references is a hugely pervasive problem.

      I once gave a reference for a former direct report. My company had no main phone line. The HR rep called my personal cell. I would have hated to think that the risk of me being a fake reference might have impacted the application.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you might be over thinking this a little. I’d so an email and then set up a call. If you have any concerns, you can always check with another reference or ask the candidate to provide more references.

    7. meyer lemon*

      I expect that if you have a substantive conversation about the candidate, it will become obvious pretty quickly if you’re talking to a fake reference. Anyone who agrees to act as a fake reference is probably not up for inventing an extensive, coherent work history with the candidate, and probably only expects you to ask one or two very basic questions, or hopes that you won’t contact them at all.

  24. Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers*

    I’ve realised that I’m completely burned out at my current job. (I’m starting a new job in about 6 weeks, yay.)

    Does anyone have experience with talking to one’s manager about burnout? It’s a big part of why I’m leaving, and I haven’t decided how much of that to disclose. But I’m interested in how the conversation might go, given the stigma against mental health issues. WHO classifies burnout as an occupational condition (?) – not as a mental health condition – but I think some people see it as one and the same.

    Thanks in advance for any responses. I won’t be able to check back for a day or 2.

    1. Distractinator*

      To me, burnout is both an occupational condition (factors of the job that make it unavoidable) and a mental health condition (your symptoms in response to those occupational pressures). Usually when talking to your manager about burnout, both of those get addressed but the focus is on finding ways to fix the causes and the personal aspect is treated as a health thing to be managed by the employee and their doctor (therapy, vacation or medical leave, anti-anxiety or anti-depression treatments, etc) – especially since that’s in a large sense none of the manager’s business beyond Alison’s standard “taking some time for a health issue” scipts. So I’d expect the manager conversation to focus on how can the job be restructured, shift tasks or schedules, etc such that once the employee has worked through immediate health issues of the symptoms, the environment doesn’t drive the problem to recur. But it’s generally focused on long-term problem solving, except for the immediate triage if you need to take some medical leave time.
      Since you’re leaving anyway (yay! congrats on the new job!) it’s up to you to decide how much you want to address the systemic problems, whether for your own benefit or for the person who takes on the role after you. Or maybe you just want to talk about the immediate term, and that would all hinge on your specific case and your doctor’s recommendations.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “I can’t do 90 hour work weeks any more. For my own health and well-being I must move on.”
      OR
      “I have taken on the work load of two other people who have been laid off. I cannot do this pace anymore.”

      Notice how I did not even mention “burn out”. Any thinking person is going to realize that people have limits, period. Here, my goal would be to say, “X is going on and it’s not sustainable for me.”

      But as others have said, this is closing the gate after the horse got loose. The time for talking about work load, or toxic behaviors or lack of pay or whatever has actually passed.
      In my experience I ended up disappointed that they did not even ask me why I was leaving. But then I realized that fit with the rest of what was wrong with the place.
      Think of it this way, no amount of conversation now is going to fix anything. Meanwhile, you personally need healing- you need calmness, orderliness, reasonable workloads, etc. It’s more to the point that you just go get these things for yourself.

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      All I will say is this: Burnout is a canary in a coal mine. So many of the tools for dealing with burnout are incumbent on the person suffering from burnout. Not only does this make it impossible (see also: depressed people trying to “motivate” to do things that help ameliorate depression), but those the majority of those tools just make a stronger canary. They do nothing about the toxic condition in the mine.

    4. Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers*

      Thanks so much for your responses, and the valuable insights and scripts.

      To add some context:
      – My work is mentally taxing. I’m not a healthcare or emergency worker or anything like that. It’s an office job, but a demanding one
      – It’s also emotionally draining because of the types of interactions I need to have with some of my colleagues
      – This is much more of a stressor than the actual work hours which are fairly normal for office work
      – The operating model / processes where I currently work are such that the job is made more stressful than at other companies
      – It’s complicated by the fact that my actual employer doesn’t have any control over my work conditions – I’m contracted out to a client – so the company that creates my work environment has no obligations to me as an individual (not in the US so the protections you may have do not apply to me)
      – I was finding it pretty challenging but I was coping – until March last year when I was put on a nightmare project with a brand new team, the same week that we went into a very strict lockdown – that project slowly eroded my confidence and enthusiasm for my work and left me drained and barely functional by the end of the year. I’m now on a much better project but still struggling to recover and do the high standard of work I was capable of in 2018-2019
      – Feedback to both my employer and the client hasn’t resulted in any significant change, which is why I am leaving. But they will nonetheless be surprised that the situation was “that bad” – compounded by the fact that some of my colleagues seem to tolerate the situation better than others

  25. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How do you get organized when you’re impervious to organization? I’ve tried the paper planner that I went to a training for, but it just gets lost/ignored. ( The training was not just designed for people with different brains than me but people on a different planet. It was all about how you put the important rocks in first and then pour in the gravel. But people give me gravel all day and it’s not like I can give it to other people. Also apparently all the gravel is important gravel. I dont know. All looks the same. )
    I’ve started using trello as a to do list but my amount of to dos ( like I need to do 10 seperate documents for 12 people) is way too much for the app.
    Even worse there are physical forms ( I’m annoyed this morning because 30 pages of physical forms are missing. I wanted to use the office because it is misery scanning 30 pages on your phone) and even if I give the forms to people and tell them to get them filled out, they won’t or they’ll lose them. If I try to get the forms filled out myself, some places will simply refuse to fill out the forms even though we need them. So then we don’t have the forms.
    Also my desk is covered in paper and I have no idea of where to put it so it doesn’t get lost.
    Also I’m supposed to block out time for tasks? I use the calendar on my phone for meetings but I’m still a little worried that I’d put it in my phone and then I’d still not do it.
    Sorry for the long complaint. Everything is a mess.

    1. Ann O*

      It took a lot of trial and error to find a system that worked for me. I use a tool similar to Trello for project management on the big stuff – longer projects with lots of milestones and interconnected parts, big tasks, things assigned far in the future that I don’t want to forget. And then I use a simple bullet journal for the smaller tasks that come up on a daily basis.

      Regarding physical papers, don’t ask me. I used to “file” it in cabinets, but my organization and labeling was so useless that I could rarely find things later. Then I started scanning the most important stuff and tossing the rest.

      One thing that has helped with overall organization is putting a “weekly wrap-up” block on my calendar for late Friday afternoon. I clean up my desk and inbox, review my calendar for the next week, make a plan of what needs to be done.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yea I often make myself a next week to do list in my journal ( notebook? It’s red and I write down the details of what people say in it?)

      2. Esmeralda*

        Physical paper — does it have to be in a certain order or are you just needing to group it in some way? Because I use boxes — literally, empty cardboard boxes. I take a piece of paper — different colors for different items / functions/ people/ days of the week (whatever makes sense for you and your job), write a short label in big letters with a fat sharpie (for example MONDAY or SUSPENDED or DEANS LIST or WAKEEN), tape it to the box, and chuck papers into the correct box. If I then need to sort the papers or do something with them, I can go through them and I know exactly where they are. Haha, I often have a SORT THIS or ??? box as well, but don’t put too much into it.

        I’ve done the same with manila folders and even tidy piles of paper on the floor.

        It makes some of my colleagues twitch (well, it did when we were all in the office, they don’t have to see it now while we WFH), but I get through a lot of work and my stuff is always done on time or early and it’s done well.

    2. Ashley*

      I really like spreadsheets for tracking lists for myself. It also sounds like part of your problem is relying on other organized people to return things. In your example if possible I would email the form and then set an email reminder for followup. If I know the person they aren’t going to fill it out, I typically fill in as much as possible and high light / red arrow items they need to complete. And then depending on my relationship with the person but them by text to get me what I need and when I am desperate go to their boss.
      I don’t have enough meetings on a regular bases to block out time for tasks but if you have a meeting heavy schedule that can help. I am a big fan of starting 30 minutes before the phone will start ringing to try and sort through emails and follow-up on high focus items.

    3. OyHiOh*

      I have Outlook for email. I use Calendar to track my meetings (fortunately, I don’t have too many), so that I get reminders ahead of time.

      I use a bullet journal-type book to track the daily gravel, as you so aptly describe it. It took quite a bit of searching to find exactly the right book – mine is about 5×7. It has the months and days lined across the top, and then just ruled lines below. My org is primarily grant funded through a US federal department so we have all kinds of reporting requirements. If I spend 2 minutes on the phone answering a question, that goes into my gravel. So do emails following up on questions. Not to mention the actual daily functions I’m supposed to do, or the things my boss hands me. Notebook functions as a record of what I did when.

      I use an old-school desk calendar for the big picture rocks. When the board packet needs to go out. When to have the newsletter done. Days my time sheet goes to the bookkeeper (I’ve forgotten often enough this is necessary . . . . . ).

      Filing and organization – takes some time to figure out a system that works for you and the kind of material you deal with. I have a 3 section file organizer, file drawers in my desk, and a stand alone file cabinet. The sectioned organizer functions as a holding zone – things that are in progress in one way or another. The drawers in my desk are for things that need to be secured (those drawers lock), and the stand alone unit is for all the reference materials boss or I need to call up sometimes. Generally, the simplest filing system is best. Mine is broad divisions (counties, grants, sister agencies, etc) and alphabetical within those divisions.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Okay, it sounds like you are trying to prioritize before you sort. The first step in organization is always sorting things into categories. Identify your categories from largest to smallest.

      To me, it looks like your top 2 categories are Paper and Time. These need to be handled differently.

      For paper, there are usually a few different sub-categories:
      1) Stuff that needs something done to it as soon as you can
      2) Stuff that needs to be dealt with on a specific day (like papers for a meeting next week or bills to be paid at the end of the month)
      3) Stuff you can’t do anything about yet because you’re waiting for someone else, or to complete another stage first
      4) Stuff you are done with but need to keep for records/reference (or stuff that doesn’t need doing in general, but is general information you will need to read/know).

      So each of those needs a container. Sometimes #3 and #4 can go in the same container, if they pertain to the same project. Usually those containers would be file folders, but you could use a physical in-tray for the “as soon as you can” stuff, I like to use a dated expandable file for the “do on that date” stuff, and even a pile for a project is better than everything randomly scattered.

      You may also need to separate stuff people give you that you haven’t looked at yet, from stuff you have looked at and is in process. So maybe that’s an in-tray for the new incoming items, and a different box or tray for stuff that you’ve looked at but haven’t done yet.

      Label everything with sticky notes so you can move the labels around and change them easily while you work it out. Don’t worry about anything being perfect – it won’t be. You have to try stuff and move it around to see what works, that’s why sticky notes are the best way.

      After you get the Paper sorted, you can start prioritizing the stuff in your in-process box that needs doing as soon as you can. How you define urgency or importance is really going to depend on your role, your team, and so forth.

      The two biggest categories for Time are probably something like “stuff you do for yourself” (like get organized, keep your time records, check your priority list, check calendar/messages/email to see if the day’s plan needs changing, plan how long things will take, block off time for tasks, etc). This will be a lot of time at first while you get sorted, and then less on a ongoing basis – but you should probably allow 10-20 % of your time every day on this category. Doing that regular maintenance is going to make the rest of your work a lot easier.

      And the other is “stuff you do for others” like deal with their gravel. This will be 80-90% of your time.
      Some of the most common categories here are:
      1) Quick tasks that can be started and finished in one sitting, or that can be done for many topics/projects one after the other. These can often be batched.
      2) Tasks that require longer periods of concentration and sustained work, and/or will be done over a longer period of time
      3) Communicating with others to follow up on questions or initiate a new question. This can also often be batched.

      Blocking off time to do different types of tasks involves seeing what you can batch, seeing what needs single focus, and then deciding when your physical and mental energy is likely best for doing them. Personally, I concentrate best between about 9:30-2:30. I prefer to get in touch with people before that, and am most likely to bang out quick tasks after that.

      I don’t know if any of that was helpful for you, but if it was I’d recommend the book Getting Things Done. The author recommends a pretty specific system, but the principles are sound and can be applied to pretty much any kind of physical or software system.

      1. Imprudence*

        I like getting things done, but also managing your now ( especially the earlier editions:. The later ones seem to consist of sales pitches) which works especially well with outlook.

      2. maggggghie*

        I love your comment, and will be taking “categorize before prioritize” with me as a mantra. My problem has always been that I get to this level of planning, and then my ADHD brain conflates the “planning” with “actually doing the task”, and somehow we’re back at square one. Building the routine and reinforcing the habits has taken so many years, but I am finally in a place where I can perceive and conceive of time beyond “Now” and “Not Now”.

    5. Rational Lemming*

      Do you have Microsoft OneNote?
      I was a person who always used different notebooks for different subjects through school (math = red!). And I find OneNote sort of replicates that in a digital way. You can assign a tab or “notebook” for a specific person/project/assignment type and then you can have sheets within. My first sheet within each notebook is a “To Do” list. I’m sure a quick YouTube can explain it better than I can.
      Like any organization system, it does require a little bit of dedication.

      Or I had a coworker who invested heavily in post-it notes. Everything he had to do (important rocks and gravel) was a post-it and they were stuck to his desk until he completed them, and tossed them when the task was finish. It would drive me nuts, but I can see how it would work for some people!

    6. Batgirl*

      I used to (when I was an admin) use a big A3 plain pad on my desk as a mouse mat. Random gravel was annotated down mindmap fashion. It was easy to scan the mindmap and choose a next priority after each task, when it would be crossed off on completion. If I had to write on the next page of the pad, I categorised that as tomorrow’s tasks. Sticky Notes on the desktop can be used similarly. I much prefer scattered-mind-map to do list to a linear to do list. Everytime you note something down on the pad, or select a priority, ask yourself if it needs a calendar entry or reminder. Test the reminders.
      I’ve found that an exhaustive filing system for papers is a waste of time. Three or four categories (Go by to he number of drawers or folders or sorter shelves you have) will do; just keep similar types of papers together where you can pick a pile and flick through. I’m a teacher so I separate by ‘generally useful’, ‘do this’ and ‘tasks I do all the time’.
      I miss having a desk because I hate planners, but teachers are kinda married to them.

    7. Mockingjay*

      A big white board for quick view tracking. I list things like:

      2/5, Sent teapot report to Fred for review (due 2/20). 2/10, still waiting.
      2/8, Rec’d spout breakage numbers for analysis. 2/9, in work.

      Doesn’t have to be pretty, just list items and their status. I can look at my board and see that I need to call Fred to get the report moving.

      I love all kinds of trackers and databases, but this simple board is what I use 90% of the time.

    8. DeweyDecibal*

      I’ve got ADHD, so this was a huge issue for me! I finally ended up getting a rocket book in the medium size that I carry everywhere with me and write down everything I need to do. Anything that a staff member tells me in person I ask them to email me, then when I’m back at my desk it gets added to the rocket book.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I scan forms to my documents. I do have hard copies of some things because we need those hard copies. Other things just exist in my computer for the rare times we need them.
      The hard copies are in in subfolders grouped in files by topic/area. The files of blank forms are all in one drawer. I cannot function without these blank forms as you show here. If they are not organize I will drown.

      I have successfully weaned myself off of a lot of post-it notes. I get the super sticky for the few post notes I use because post-its fall off all the time. Instead I started using tracking sheets. I staple the sheet to the inside of the file. I write down what has been done and then I put what needs to happen next. This isn’t as bad as it sounds. For example: “Estimate is done. Waiting for approval.” It does not have to be paragraphs of writing. Just something to get me back on track with that particular file.

      I do have a tray for my immediate work. This tray holds the work my boss gives me AND it holds the work that I need to go back to very shortly. The goal is to empty the tray daily but that does not always happen.

      The number one thing that controls the paper on my desk is my label maker. I love my label maker. I make folder or file labels often. There is just something for me about having a nice clear label on a file. So those forms I was talking about a minute ago- each one is in a folder with a label from the label maker. I have no idea why the label maker helps me so much. I guess it’s mostly because I like how the labels come out and every thing just feels clear and organized.

      My boss got me some plastic pockets. They look like plastic folders but they are closed on 3 sides to work like a pocket. The pockets are colorful- bright pink, bright green, etc. I can locate them quickly no matter how badly i have buried them. The pockets have a designated use, for example one is labeled mail. I dunno why but mail seems to turn up several times a day. (It gets sent to the wrong place, then handcarried to me.) I can throw all the mail into that pocket and then do the mail as a group.
      Other pockets collect other specific things that come my way during the day. When I am done with the mail pocket, I can move to the X or Y pocket and do what is needed there. Of course the pockets have labels from my label maker that l love so much.

      Routines help immensely. I have my daily routines and I use them without fail. Doing things in the same order and/or the same way each day can save time and it can insure that not much gets forgotten.

      I think the biggest thing that I had to reinforce with myself was to date everything. I’d forget to put dates on my notes, on my mail, etc. Putting dates on everything really helped me not to lose my reference points when I had to go back in on something.

      Making a start up list for the morning, has been valuable to me. I do sometimes forget where I left off. I can save a bunch of time, if I know where I need to start in the morning when I return to work.

    10. Lizy*

      OMG ARE YOU ME???? lol – all the paper and unfortunately all the paper won’t go away and yes all gravel is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. *sigh*

      Good luck.

    11. Glitsy Gus*

      I have a lot of issues with organization too, so I feel you. Most systems that I’ve tried really just don’t work for me.

      I did get a system together to handle the relatively large amount of paper my job generates, though. I got myself two of those desktop, step-up manila folder sorters and a bunch of manila folders. The folders I then labeled by department, you could use people if you needed to instead. I also put together folders for each day of the week. If I knew something was due or I should follow up or something on Tuesday, it would go in the Tuesday folder (even if it’s due 2 Tuesdays from now, into the Tuesday folder, I’ll get there eventually). if Jan submitted it, but I just needed to hang on to it until I could file it/hear back from Jan/whatever next step, into the Jan folder. I also have a few categories, so there may also be an “Incoming Client Approval” folder or something.

      That way it’s all easily available should I need it but not all over my desktop. If I don’t know what to do next I can just grab the folder of the day and pick something or scan through the folks and see what pings as a pending item. I will also sometimes write a note and throw it into the folder of the day if I need a reminder. The good part is that it is really fast and simple but keeps things categorized just enough. The trick is to find the sweet spot between “enough categories to find things” and “way too many folders, I don’t have time for this.” Anything too complicated or time consuming I will abandon in a few days, so simple is the key for me.

    12. AnotherLibrarian*

      You have to find a system that works for you. For me, it’s a bullet journal, spreadsheets, a hyper-organized staff person who works for me (thank goodness for her) and some of those standing file things, because I have an “out of sight, out of mind” problem. I also have a weekly- email clean up, file things, check lists, that I do on my Friday afternoons usually. I think Ann O suggested this as well. It helps me stay on track.

    13. vertical organizer*

      I feel your pain. Lately what has worked for me is a big white board with post its. Papers in stacks.

    14. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Only thing I can add is that it’s your manager’s job to help you prioritize the gravel.
      I recently picked up an idea from someone on this list, to keep a running email of the tasks that hit my desk and the ones I complete. I use that to ask my manager which gravel is the highest priority. Manager knows the company’s business plan and tells me what’s worth my time. Every time I send a copy to manager, I delete the things I’ve done already and start adding new tasks to a new standing email.
      Key thing I’ve done is put a phrase in that I can search my email for later, when someone asks about project history.

    1. Qwerty*

      Nooooooo!!!!

      I would really like to talk to the developers who write software like this and give them a piece of my mind.

      However, it does remind me of an survey I had to take for a job interview over 10yrs ago. It would give you a list of four statements and you would essentially have to rank them – except it was sneaky by saying “pick the sentence that you most identify with”, eliminating your selection, and making you choose again. All of the statements were objectively terrible things to say in an interview (“sometimes working with others makes me furious”). Since it was college, a bunch of us all applied to the same company and laughed afterwards, then refused to accept any further interviews because we didn’t trust their judgement.

    2. LabTechNoMore*

      The test in there asking subjects to identify which emotions correspond to which faces seems blatantly discriminatory against neurodivergent folks.

  27. Nowhereville, USA*

    My unit has been successful and productive performing 100% remote work during quarantine, but our executive management is set on return to on-site work when it’s safe to do so. Prior to the pandemic, we had 5 fulltime telecommuters and very occasional telecommuting (snow days, etc). During the pandemic, we are 100% remote work and producing a huge amount of quality work. The majority of employees prefer remote work. However, our executive management wants to return to on-site work as it was before the pandemic, despite that the majority of employees do not want to return to 100% on-site work. I think that many of our current employees will always hold some degree of bitterness, that for more than a year, they had no commute and did the same work (the majority of our work is solitary and on computers). But some time in 2021-2022, workers will be driving 30+ minutes one way 4-5 days a week….to perform solitary work in front of a computer. Only difference is that it’s in a cubicle (or worse, open office). Just commiserating with other workers here.

    1. PolarVortex*

      I’ve come to the conclusion that executives are out of touch and/or don’t realize their job is drastically different than most their employees’. So maybe their job makes sense to come in, but ours doesn’t. (And we don’t have the pay, vacation benefits, work hour flexibility, etc that execs get as a benefit to being in their job.)

      Honestly I suspect as people abandon ship for remote jobs, they’ll wise up a bit and suddenly launch a flex work thing where people can WFH x days and talk about how progressive they are in about 5 years.

      1. Nowhereville, USA*

        I think that’s what I find the most irksome. The executive management has not considered how different production employees job’s are compared to theirs, despite that we are a small unit. The executive management also doesn’t consider that the company benefits are decreased and regional housing costs have increased; it doesn’t affect them as much due to higher pay. All of these factors affect production workers more than management.

      2. Ashley*

        Or they can’t focus at home alone so they assume no one else can possibly work that way. The office phase in for those who love WFH will be interesting battlegrounds in the year ahead. Not to mention how companies who have had much of the workforce WFH define safe to return.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’ve started keeping metrics now while remote, because I can tell that I am more productive when not in the office. And I want to be able to prove that after three months if I am called back to the office.

  28. HeyAnonyNony*

    Tips on transitioning within a company…especially leaving a job you enjoy and an amazing boss?

    Work has been paying a large part of my tuition for a MS in a technical field (think Computer Science), which I’ll finish before the end of the year. I’m excited about the new work, I love working with that team. Our 3 year plan includes expanding this type of work in our company.

    But my current job was essentially created for me and my boss has fought to keep me on the team, rather than moving me to a function I’m much less interested in. I have a lot of goals for 2021 to build out company knowledge related to my current work.

    I wasn’t supposed to like this job this much!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is your boss supportive of the move / the study or do you think they will try to keep you back in your current team?

      1. HeyAnonyNony*

        He’s made room for me to use my new skills on the current team. He’s a really reasonable person, so I can’t imagine him trying to block the move, but I do think he’ll be disappointed given his push to keep me last year.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          but I do think he’ll be disappointed

          … so he wasn’t [fully] in on the plan, I’m inferring?

          Was it presented that you’d be able to continue to work for him but with more of a focus on field X.. when the reality is that you’d be expected to transfer out?

          If so I think it’s a management communication fail ultimately. I think this is what you’re going to end up having to navigate.

          1. HeyAnonyNony*

            It’s been a weird couple of years. We initially were charged with creating team for a 2 year project. At the same time, the other function was just getting off the ground, so it seemed like a great fit in terms of timelines. I was upfront at the time about my track.

            After some leadership shakeup, my boss and I were moved into an adjacent function that became a permanent team.

            HR also has changed a ton in the years I’ve been working on my degree and there was no formal plan for me moving to the other team, aside from my own advocacy to get involved with that group.

            The more I write this, the more complicated it seems. Blergh, likely going to just have awkward conversations and ask pointed questions.

  29. Elenia*

    Hey do you all think I should hold some kind of after hours thing for my staff? I am really not into this stuff, and I hate asking my staff to stay after. They are all paid hourly so it would be off the clock.
    But we’ve been in this stupid quarantine a year. We haven’t been able to connect.
    One of them has three small children too. So asking her might be difficult.
    And besides who wants to socialize with their boss?
    Maybe I should suggest they hold one without me?
    Not really sure. Thoughts? Or should I just mail them some chocolate and be done with it?

    1. Maria the Medical Librarian*

      Honestly, I would prefer the chocolate (or whatever) with a short, personalized note.

    2. Catriona*

      Mail them some chocolate and a nice note and be done with it! Love it. If they want to to get together and socialize on their own, they can certainly sort that out themselves. And/or, you could do an optional, social “coffee hour” or something one day, on the clock.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I did a virtual meetup with my team a few months back. Surveys were sent to ask for the best day/times (we did this on a weekend) and then everyone was sent invites. Totally optional, but a fair number of folks came and everyone had a great time.

    4. TCO*

      I don’t know what your line of work is, but could you offer paid opportunities to connect during the work day? Even if it’s just an occasional 30 minutes of chatting over lunch or something? If you were working in person, what kind/level of socializing would be considered “acceptable” during the workday and can you try to replicate that level?

      I think it’s really nice to have opportunities to connect with coworkers during an isolating and difficult, and if team cohesion is important to your job then it makes sense for an employer to support some time to connect. But I agree that for some people it might feel like asking a lot to add unpaid socializing, that might feel obligatory, to their already-busy lives. It might come down to knowing your team–is this something they’d enjoy?

      1. A*

        Yes, this is what my team does. We all operate independently and quickly fell out of touch when we switched to WFH, so we setup a 30 minute monthly ‘vent & chat’ session during the work day (usually a Friday). No infringement on personal time, and also avoids the tricky issue of after hour events sometimes inadvertently being themed around alcohol/happy hours.

        I want to stay connected to my team, but not enough to sacrifice even more of my limited time (granted, I work 60+ hour weeks and felt differently when I was in 40 hour/week positions).

    5. HeyAnonyNony*

      I’d poll the group, especially if you can ask people casually or send an anonymous poll (easy to do in Microsoft Teams, which we use). If your staff won’t feel pressured to answer, it doesn’t hurt to ask!

    6. Weekend Please*

      Can you do something during the work day? As we saw this morning, forced socialization off the clock tends to not be very welcome.

    7. Eirena*

      Given the choice between unpaid social time at work, paid social time at work, and chocolate and a note, I would rank chocolate first, paid social time next, and completely skip out on unpaid social time with coworkers.

    9. I'm just here for the cats*

      After hours socialization kind of sucks, especially right now when a lot of resteraunts and bars re not open. I would say hold off and show appreciation some other way.

      Another thought, if you are all in office, and if everyone feels safe and up to it, have a pot luck where you can all bring in dishes but eat in your own areas. Or maybe have something delivered, like sandwiches. DO this during work hours.

    10. mreasy*

      Mail everyone coffee or their treat of choice. Bonus points if it’s a local maker. If you can use half or all of a regularly scheduled meeting for a looser “hopes for the year / teambuilding q&a,” great – but I’d avoid after hours for sure (I have no kids and still wouldn’t want to do it).

  30. Thursdaysgeek*

    My company deals with interns so well. They are paid, of course, but they aren’t given side jobs that no-one has time to do and no-one cares about. They are part of the team, doing the same work the rest of us are doing, just part-time. We work with them, ask them for help, just like anyone else.

    Our team intern has been helping me learn a language I’m weak in and he’s been studying. And yesterday helped me resolve an issue that I couldn’t figure out. I let our boss know. In many cases, we end up hiring the interns when they graduate, so we get to evaluate geeks while they are getting very useful experience, and then we get to hire well trained fresh graduates.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Yes! I make it a point to “big up” people, especially junior/intern level when they have done a good job. Don’t forget to give good feedback (without making it embarrassing :) ) directly to the person also.

  31. RagingADHD*

    I made a stupid brain glitch last week, and got away with it.

    I sent a client an analysis and recommendations for their book proposal, and after it was too late to recall the email, I realized I’d used an entirely wrong word. I know both words, I know what they mean, but the ol’grey matter just served up the wrong one and didn’t catch it until later. I was dreading the follow-up conversation, because it would make me look really ignorant, which could undermine their confidence in the whole process.

    (Sidenote: before I got dx, this kind of thing used to really freak me out and make me think I was losing my marbles altogether. Now I know what’s happening and it stinks but is just something to deal with.)

    The client LOVED my document and is using the recommendations. I don’t know whether they missed it/misread it, whether they used some kind of alternate interpretation of the sentence that made the incorrect word work, or whether they didn’t know the difference. Ha!

    Did you have any “whew, dodged a bullet” moments this week?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I recently sent my higher-ups a presentation which was generally complete, but one bullet point read, “Not sure what to say here. Any suggestions?”

      Silly me. I thought they’d read it carefully before sending it out to very important people with money!

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I noticed it and fixed it. I suspect some money was lost, but nobody has told me whether that’s really the case.

  32. ahhh*

    I know this is a silly question to ask. I work a job that has papers flying everywhere. It’s an industry thing, not personal trait. How do people get organized? Things come in at such a fast pace…. my piles have piles; I either end up with a pile of papers or a pile of folder; despite trying to go as paperless as possible it’s just not entirely possible in this position. Sadly doing things and filing them away doesn’t always work due to how certain projects are run. Any suggestions… I just want to see the bottom of my desk!

    1. Sleepless*

      That may depend on how many projects you have and how many papers each one generates. If it’s multiple projects that will eventually get filed when they are completed, can they each be put on a clipboard? Each new piece of paper gets stuck to the clipboard, and you can have a certain order they are put in. Maybe add colored dividers to the stack so you can find each one. The clipboard is set in a certain spot depending on the stage of the project, and then filed when it is completed (or scanned so you don’t have to keep the paper).

        1. Sleepless*

          It’s how we handle the paperwork in a paperlight veterinary practice. Every patient gets a checkin sheet on a clipboard. All of the paper that is generated during their stay/visit is added to the clipboard. We have specific spots the clipboard is put for each stage of the visit to minimize the amount of time people spend running around looking for it. After the visit, it’s all scanned into the electronic record.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I just want to commiserate! I have so much paper! If I can get to the office and scan them on the big scanner I can throw them away. Man maybe I’ll bring my whole desk.

      1. ahhh*

        Sadly I’ve gotten to the point of being able to locate things in the piles without even looking. Need document ABC – second pile over 3/4 of the way down. I’m not the neatest person but personally I my home life is a little more organized. My desk is DRIVING ME CRAZY. Cheese to mutual commiseration!

      1. ahhh*

        I’ve been trying that. I love the idea and concept but its taking me a while to get things organized that way as I need more verticle files than there is room on my desk (we have a shortage of storage space where I work)

  33. Other Options?*

    I am trying to find a new path in my career but don’t know where to even start.
    I have been in sales operations for the same publicly held company for the past 20+ years in various types of roles, with my most relevant experience being managing sales operations – developing and implementing commission plans, sales goal-setting, CRM support, pricing analysis and deal conception, sales reporting, sales territory development, and sales training.
    I’m good at what I do, but my motivation sucks and I just NEED something different. I’ve been looking for new opportunities at other companies but always seem to come up in second place and even then, I’m not sure if I need a new company or a whole new path?
    Do these skills have any logical path to something new and different or am I stuck here forever? I’m open to pretty much anything – non-profit, government, etc – but I just don’t even know what to search for that might be a feasible option?

    1. Late Bloomer*

      Have you looked at program/project management roles? They exist in multiple sectors (tech and marketing are two big ones) and it sounds like you have a ton of good experience in the sorts of things a program manager does (developing a plan and guiding a team with the aim of completing a goal). Sometimes times postings look for people familiar/skilled with Scrum/Agile/Lean concepts or SQL but you can learn about them if needed. There’s even a fairly inexpensive test you can take to get a certification in Project Management that employers do actually seem to put some stock in (although it doesn’t seem to be absolutely required for every role)

    2. ahhh*

      I haven’t done what you are trying to do, but have you tried a job search by skill as opposed to Sales Operations? Also can you relate your experiences to a job posting. FOr example how can your experience with pricing analysis and deal conception – cater a cover letter for a purchasing agent or a company. Maybe network, linked in.

  34. VeryAnonForThis*

    Negotiating a raise when you survive a layoff. Think Teapot Design Architect for 14 teapot factories. Three people had the position to cover all 14 factories. Two positions were eliminated. Two people decided to retire rather than go through the application process when the remaining job was open internally. I’m offered the job with a 10% pay increase. I know of only one other solo Teapot Design Architect responsible for more than one factory, and she has three factories. I want to request a 20% raise with the hope of getting 15%, but is that tone-deaf when surviving a layoff during a pandemic?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      What you’re describing sounds crazy-making stressful and maybe a little toxic. I’d tell management that no amount of money is worth the stress of doing a job normally filled by three people. Tell them that when they’ve hired the other two you’ll be happy to take the third position.

    2. tab*

      During layoffs is a terrible time to ask for a raise, but I think you can safely ask, “I appreciate a raise, but this is MUCH more responsibility and work. Can you do better than that?”

    3. Weekend Please*

      This really doesn’t bode well. Combining three positions into one which would be responsible for 14 factories when the highest you have seen is 3 sounds like being set up to fail. Do you actually want the job if you get a 15% raise? I don’t think it is tone deaf at all to tell them that you aren’t interested in taking a 200% workload increase for a 10% raise.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I’ve been thinking about this, and maybe there’s another way to handle it, which is to day, “This is a huge job, much too big for one person. What’s my budget for hiring help?” At that point I think they’ll probably look for someone else.

    4. *daha**

      Negotiate around workload and expectations first of all. This sounds like you’ll spend 16 hours a day putting out fires and 0 hours doing the meat of the position. You can’t produce the work of three people and maintain quality. Negotiating for more money for a job you are going to fail at is not a winning strategy.

  35. Southern Academic*

    Suggestions for managing people who are right out of college / in their first professional role? I took on some new responsibilities related to this, this spring; and I’m finding a few aspects of it (e.g. knowing how much to expect of them vs. a college student; what to prioritize coaching on vs. what to let slide) challenging.

    1. Malika*

      Time management skills and allround organization, whatever their job entails, is something they are better off learning sooner rather than later. Are these some of the issues you are dealing with, plus professional etiquette, especially in your industry? I notice that a lot of college graduates struggle with those aspects the most and need the most coaching in.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      One thing I struggled with (as a new hire) was asking for feedback and/or telling if my expectations were lined up with the manager’s. In school it’s very structured — you’ll have a rubric, you know what you’ll need to do to succeed.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I have hired a few people right out of college. I find the best and kindest thing I can do is regularly check in and also regularly set expectations. I sometimes frame it as, “I know you might know this already, but I really need your timesheet in by X, because then payroll can process it by Y.” Or “No, I can’t have you check email off the clock, because that’s wage theft and it’s illegal, so please please don’t do that.” Or “I noticed you’ve been taking longer lunches. That’s no problem, but if its’ going to be over an hour can you let me know so I can make sure we’re covered on the Desk.” Those sorts of things.

    4. Lisa B*

      Plan to have a LOT of conversations with them. Not just weekly check-ins, but twice, minimum. Three is better, because you want to check in on their progress regularly to make sure they’re not veering way off. It’s very difficult to give too much feedback to people this green, so lay it on!

      Another big one is to go overboard on describing your office’s norms and expectations. I found that if I prefaced those conversations with “I know this might seem pretty basic, but everyone has such different expectations going into what’s often their first professional role that I find being so specific is generally helpful!” Then they don’t bristle as much when I explain, in great detail, what “business casual” entails.

      If this will be a regular/ongoing thing, developing a “newbie manual” is really helpful. I started one for our interns since we get a new crop each year, and even our regular new hires will glance through it during orientation. It covers things like trash only gets emptied on Tuesdays so throw any lunch garbage away in the kitchen, not your office; here’s how you request office supplies and the type of things we provide; you should have your teammate’s and supervisor’s cell phone numbers for emergencies but here’s what generally is/isn’t ok to use them for, etc.

    5. Qwerty*

      1) Plan on spending a lot of 1×1 time with them and know that you’ll need to explain thing multiple times. New professionals require a ton of investment, but I find it to be a very rewarding process

      2) Assign a dedicated mentor! If you are their manager, they may not feel comfortable coming to you with all of their dumb questions, so give them a secondary resource who can help with guiding them but that they don’t report to. Try to get someone who balances you out – usually we picked mentors who was mid-level since they have gone through a lot of the same growing pains relatively and balanced out the managers who had 10yrs of experience. Eventually you can turn these college grads into a pipeline to be new mentors in a few years.

      3) Focus on a small number of improvements at a time. New professionals can feel like they are drinking from a firehose or that they are screwing everything up. So if they need to improve on a lot of things, focus on just a couple of them. You may need to get specific and celebrate the small wins.

      4) Lots of oversight on their work. You’ll want to put a buffer on deadlines so there is time for an extra round or two of reviewing their work. Schedule weekly check ins and keep them casual. Talk to them about what works and doesn’t work for them. If they need to send an email to someone external or high up, pair with them to help them learn Office Speak.

      5) Do you have a wiki? I keep a new hire guide on our wiki with all the relevant links that they need. Ask them to help you add information to it that is missing – this gets them involved in the process. I try to train my college grads on asking me “where do I find X?” rather than “what is X?” so they start learning how to solve things on their own.

    6. meyer lemon*

      My company often hires interns and new grads, and while I don’t manage them, I do help train them and give them day-to-day support. I find that there is a lot of variation in their abilities, both in direct job-related skills and general professional skills and judgment. For my job, the most difficult thing to coach is that our jobs require a pretty high degree of discernment and judgment, even at entry level. The feedback I’ve received is that three training tools/techniques I’ve implemented have been particularly helpful:

      –A high-level document that encompasses the full breadth of the kind of project we work on, with some detail provided about each step in the process. This helps provide some orientation about how the various daily tasks all fit together in the larger project.
      –A series of more focused how-to documents, including some with general entry-level information, such as office basics (dress code, breaks, where to find things, who to contact for different things) and a glossary of industry jargon
      –Having a point person who is available to answer questions as they arise. Usually we pair up the interns/new employees with a more experienced employee on a project. After one or two like this, they are usually able to take on a project by themselves with more limited support.

  36. slackr*

    During the pandemic we had a few rounds of layoffs. One of my direct reports was laid off, not unexpectedly; my department had a big reduction in workflow. I was sympathetic and offered a letter of recommendation, as he was a competent, but not outstanding, employee. Since his departure, while doing some of his job plus my own, I have discovered some portions of his responsibilities that he was neglecting or not doing at all and hiding it from me. Now, I am owning that it never would have happened if I had been more closely supervising him, but I am a standoff kind of manager – I give you the tools and the support to succeed, and I expect you to run with it. Add to that, he is not the first of my people to be laid off during that time and I was stretched pretty thin.
    Now he keeps contacting me for references/recommendations. In light of my discoveries about his work, I am not comfortable with recommending him with my reputation in the industry on the line. I don’t really feel like having the conversation with him about why – I have just been ghosting him. I know longer work for the company and answered his last text telling him so, but he still asks time to time. Do I owe him an explanation? Do I owe him a conversation, or will an email work for this sort of thing?

    1. CatCat*

      I think you need to lay out the cards especially since you initially offered a reference. He may be putting you down as a reference because of that. It’s unkind of you not to address that your position has changed because you don’t feel like it. You don’t have to have a big discussion about the it. Just tell him what’s what and then you don’t need to engage anymore. So at least he can find someone else to be a reference.

      “Ned, aftef you left, I discovered work that you were supposed to be doing, but hadn’t been doing. For this reason, I can no longer provide a positive referenence.”

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Now he keeps contacting me for references/recommendations.

      I think in this situation you could give (realistic…) references but not recommendations and make the distinction clear.

      Presumably you keep being asked because he’s applying for new work and keeps getting to that point in the process (and then turned down, I suppose). Is there anything in what you’ve given already as a reference that could be negative like that? I wonder if there are other negative references about him.

      You will hate me for saying this, but although you are a ‘standoff’ manager there still needs to be some level of oversight about work being completed surely – I would look into how (in terms of the process/structure, not specifically about this person) they were able to pull the wool over your eyes on a sustained basis so that you believed work was being completed and only found out months later that it wasn’t?

      I think that you could drop him an email if you are able to get the right ‘tone’ and content.

    5. BRR*

      You owe him a response. Being ghosted by a former manager is pretty rude. Even if you don’t work with the company anymore you still managed his work at the time so of course he’s listing you.

      I think an email or text is not only fine, but preferable. “I discovered that X & Y were neglected. I need to provide an honest reference and it’s going to be in your best interest to find a stronger reference.”

      And I’m with Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd above. Ultimately you have some responsibility for the work not being done. That doesn’t change anything above but you can give your employees autonomy while maintaining some oversight.

    7. Workerbee*

      From here, it sounds like both a style mismatch and, honestly, an outcome that is due more to your handling of his employment. I am extrapolating here, but—if you came across as expecting your employee to figure everything out on his own and not come to you for help or with problems, I’m not that surprised that this person didn’t achieve much and even outright hid things.

      I don’t know! This could be an overly harsh interpretation.

      I also like to let my employees do their work without me hovering, too. But because I’m that way, I also make it very clear that I am there to help them—with issues, with running interference, etc. Otherwise there’s a risk they won’t trust that I’d have their back, or listen to them, or otherwise be able to help them work through stuff.

      As another commenter said, adding on the ghosting to this makes it sound like there’s more going on that isn’t good.

    8. aarti*

      Honestly, I think an email is fine. You can briefly summarize the issue and explain why you are no longer a good reference for him to use. I think if you make the email brief and polite, it should be clear that you’re not looking to have a lot of follow-up discussions. I honestly think you’ll feel better if you can just shut this whole thing down, rather than having to wait anxiously for his next text.

      Obviously you know better (given the situation what’s possible) but you may want to leave the door open for the possibility of some genuine error rather than malice on his part. After I left one of my first jobs, my former boss contacted me pretty annoyed because once big task update I was charged with doing wasn’t done. Except I had done it! But I’d been saving it in the wrong format thus it ended up in the wrong place on the server. We figured it out, both had a laugh and she served as a reference for me a few times after that. I realize this most likely isn’t your case, but at least by sending a clear email you’ll eliminate that possibility. Best of luck!

    9. slackr*

      Thanks for the advice. I will be contacting him via phone this week.
      For some of the more judgmental of you – its a 16 acre site with 12 buildings, including a couple of warehouses/shop areas over 100,00 square feet. All I have time for in my 45 hour workweek on top of budgets, permits, reports, etc., is a two or three physical walkthroughs of random areas for a couple of hours each week and a top to bottom inspection annually that takes most of a week. If you think there’s an issue with me not discovering a single storage locker in an attic area where he was stashing equipment instead of cleaning/maintaining/calibrating it, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

  37. ReluctantManager*

    I returned to managing staff directly this year after a few years functioning in a consultative role within the same company. I manage subject matter experts within my subject area but they are spread out across multiple teams with 1-2 staff assigned per team. Their function with each team is similar but slightly different due to the nature of the team. I do 1:1s weekly to train based on their strengths/weaknesses and to address specific needs of their role/team and do mostly team email updates because juggling schedules to bring people together is difficult logistically and noone wants another meeting. COVID has thrown a wrench in things because we all primarily WFH. My current struggle is how do I balance holding distant staff accountable without becoming nitpicky and micromanaging them?

    1. Cassidy*

      Perhaps you can focus on the main thing: are they getting their work done properly, with few mistakes, and on time?

      I think WFH means making sure people’s work isn’t impacted negatively. You can’t really know if they’re putting in a full 40 hours, or sleeping a bit later each workday, but you can manage the quality and timeliness of their work. If it were me, those two variables are what I’d focus on until I had reason not to, at which time you might need to have meetings whether your people would want them or not. If they don’t give you reason to meet, the situation itself is kind of managing itself.

  38. Well, that happened*

    I’m the director of a department at a medium sized company. I’m in a leadership development program with my associate director, who reports to me, but is considered part of the company leadership. As a background, our department has grown a lot in the past year and we’ve had some growing pains that we are all aware of and have a meeting to address in a few weeks.

    Our leadership program met yesterday and we’d had a homework assignment work with a group to present a leadership challenge (real or hypothetical) to the group to assess and come up with a solution. My AD presented for her team, and the “problem” she presented was listing every single growing pain that the team has had in the past few months – all of which we were slated to discuss in the spring – and some critiques of how I manage in general. I had no idea she was picking this topic and we have never had a discussion about it as a team.

    I was totally taken aback and had to sit there and listen to our company’s entire entire leadership team – including my own boss – dissect our team dynamics from the limited information she presented and come up with “solutions”. This included someone thanking her for “airing our dirty laundry” and talking about how her manager (me) could do better. I didn’t participate because I didn’t know what to say. I’ve never stormed out of a meeting before but the whole thing felt like it was designed to undermine my authority, including the message she sent me halfway through “sorry I meant to tell you that I was picking this topic”.

    Afterwards my boss messaged me that she wanted to talk about my reaction to the discussion at our 1:1 this afternoon. I told her yes please, I had no idea that AD was picking this topic, it totally caught me off guard especially since we’ve ever talked about it on our own team. Boss was surprised that AD hadn’t talked to me about it (they were in the same group), but still wants to talk about it this afternoon. I’m not quite sure what to say…. generally I have a good relationship with AD and she is not the type to just “forget” to mention something. There was one other incident of her vaguely criticizing my leadership in a 1:1 late last year, but at the time I figured she’d just been really stressed like we all were in 2020.

    Thoughts, advice, help??? I’d love some strategies for how to talk to my boss about it, and if anyone has dealt with this type of situation in the past I’d love to hear how you dealt with it.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Aaaghhhh this is frustrating! I guess I’d go into this meeting prepared to, as non-defensively as possible, outline the ways in which I agreed or disagreed with AD and the steps I had already planned to take (the scheduled spring discussion) and then just… be open and receptive to hearing what your boss has to say about it. You can and should have a separate conversation with AD about what you wish had happened instead (i.e., her telling you ahead of time and giving you the opportunity to loop her in on your plans, etc.).

    2. Troutwaxer*

      I mostly noticed the phrase “…we’ve had some growing pains that we are all aware of and have a meeting to address in a few weeks.” Reading between the lines I suspect that your AD is very, very frustrated and maybe even angry, and doesn’t feel like you’re moving fast-enough to handle the problems the team is facing.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I would approach it as discussing with my boss the coaching opportunity that the AD has provided. It was inappropriate for her to pick that topic without discussing it with you and that you were caught off guard in front of senior leadership. I would (if it were me) talk to my boss about how to help AD navigate office politics and how that wasn’t okay. In other words, I wouldn’t go in with an “AD screwed me over and what are we going to do about it?” mindset, I would go in with a “AD did something in a clumsy way that did not reflect well on our group and didn’t keep her boss in the loop and how do we coach her to not do that?” If the boss wants to talk about why you didn’t participate in the discussion or wants to say that you looked defensive or angry (which you might have) then I think you own it — if you can give a little laugh and say “well, to be honest I did feel kind of blindsided and I have to admit that I felt a little defensive since these are known issues that I have a plan to address, which AD knows.” In other words, you WERE blindsided and you DID feel defensive. If pressed on that, admit it — because you have every right to those feelings.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        You could even say that you appreciated the ideas and input that you got from the meeting (if you can say that with a straight face and give an example), but that you would have appreciated a heads up.

        1. Well, that happened*

          I actually think we could have gotten some really good input on a specific issue if we’d talked about where we feel like the group could have helped us. “We are dealing with X, here’s some more information about X, can you help us get to Y?” But because we haven’t discussed it, instead it was just a vague “here are all the things that are wrong how do we address them”. So frustrating.

          1. Qwerty*

            This is a really great angle to take with your boss! It shows that you don’t object to the topic being discussed, just how it was handled, which is a really important distinction.

    4. Princess Scrivener*

      Yikes, you didn’t ask for commiseration, but you’ve got mine. There are some things you can’t develop in a potential leader, and your AD just missed the boat on one of them–the sense to know what and WHEN to let your boss in on before you blab it to the world. Good luck with your meeting, let us know how it went later.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      It’s gotta be one of these – if you can identify the motivation I think you’ll be in a better position to figure out the way forward. I think it’s telling that she isn’t the type to forget to mention something and sent the “sorry I forgot” message as a means of plausible deniability I presume (why?).

      – she feels things aren’t likely to change / aren’t moving fast enough and saw this as an opportunity to expedite the process.
      – she feels unable to raise the issues more directly (you mentioned that she had “vague criticism of your leadership” last year, I wonder how indirect that was vs what she actually had on her mind at the time) and perceived that workshop as a ‘safe space’ in which to raise the issues
      – it was presented as “give a real or hypothetical example” and she took it at face value, gave the real and present example of things going wrong currently and didn’t really consider (or didn’t care) about the politics aspect, or thought that these issues could be discussed as a useful example “in the abstract” and divorced from the actual situation currently happening.

      I can understand where you’re coming from, but storming out of a cross-company leadership training due to receiving negative feedback is a pretty drastic move! I expect the person thanking her for “airing dirty laundry” didn’t know you were her manager being referred to.. or did they? I can see why your boss picked you up on your response (not really on being angry about it, which I can understand, but specifically about responding in that way).

      Suggestions – what I would do generically in this situation, be apologetic about your actual behaviour, separate that from the issues at hand and admit / take the opportunity that this has allowed the situation to be discussed, and open the discussion. Keep a close eye on AD.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        (Btw, this kind of thing is why in general leadership training doesn’t include the boss and the “direct report” (which is a leader themselves) in the same session!)

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          OK, sorry, I inferred too much from you never having stormed out of a meeting before!

          I would still suggest reflecting before your discussion with your boss on what your “response” consisted of, then, and why your boss might take issue with that.

    6. pancakes*

      Did you actually storm out of the meeting? You wrote, “I’ve never stormed out of a meeting before but…,” and then say your boss wants to talk about your reaction, but it’s not entirely clear what your reaction was. If you did storm out, I think you need to apologize for having such a visceral reaction. My apologies if I have this wrong – you also mention having to sit there and listen, so I’m not sure you whether you did in fact storm out.

      1. Well, that happened*

        I did not storm out! But I did think about that. I just sat there and dried to keep my face neutral. Not sure how successful I was.

        1. pancakes*

          Ah, good! I agree with what others have said about trying to not be too defensive. If it seems appropriate to apologize in the meeting, you can apologize for being taken aback.

    7. BRR*

      For how to handle it with your boss. Can you frame it as some context was missing? Saying you acknowledge a, b, and c have been issues and the plans currently in place are x, y, and z? Can you frame your reaction as it was your AD’s presentation and you wanted to let her go with it versus turning the leadership program into a strategic planning session for your department?

      Your AD went about this very poorly. But I’m wondering if she doesn’t feel like she has the opportunity to be heard otherwise and -this will be rough- does your AD have a valid point? Part of me wonders if this was strategic on her part but part of me also wonders how much could be because of frustration at the growing pains.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would start with defining what the exercise was supposed to be.
      From what you have here, it was supposed to be “a” leadership challenge, to me, this means one challenge NOT ten. I’d say I pictured a much more limited scope problem, I did not expect to hear a grocery list of everything that is wrong.
      Who is running or designed this program? I don’t think the point of the program was to rake someone over the coals, and yet here we are.
      I’d mention that I find it odd that all these things are a problem when we have meeting scheduled in the spring to deal with this. So why was it brought up in a training context?
      I think I would ask what is the point of this exercise when the example given is too big for the scope of what the exercise is trying to do.
      I’d be sure to restate that she never told you she was going to say all that. You’ve had a good working relationship with her and this does not fit with what you have seen.
      You could also say that the person who had to publicly thank her could have also come to you to discuss matters instead of presenting the problems in this public spectacle.

      I’d land on that this is improper use of the training session given the length of the list of complaints and her failure to loop you in before she did it.
      No one is going to want to go to these trainings once it gets out that these trainings can be used to skewer and BBQ one’s own boss.

      That’s for her.
      I have one for you and it’s much easier.
      Stop referring to the problems as growing pains. It’s minimizing and it can be condescending. Covertly it coveys that you do not understand how people are being impacted by the problems or you think that these problems are a big joke. This is people’s livelihoods, it keeps a roof over their heads and food on their tables. It’s important and not something that should be trivialized in any manner. Going forward call it problems or concerns, don’t use other minimizing language.
      It sounds like the problems are building and compounding and they are struggling to wait a few more weeks to deal with it all.
      Tell them that you understand it is your job as a boss to provide them with the tools/equipment, information and time necessary to do their allotted work. And you are going to make sure you pay more attention to these three things.
      I’d land on asking your boss what is going to be done to make sure that exercises are not misused in this manner again.

    9. ..Kat..*

      So, basically, your management gave you a very public performance review, at a meeting with a lot of people, where you did not get to say anything? Your management sucks. You did not get to explain why X happened (maybe you needed your management to support/supply you with Y). Also, you simply had to sit there and let people you manage (or work with) complain about you without any context (Including whether the complaint was even valid)! And many (if not most of this) was not addressed previously. And, you were blindsided by not knowing that you were going to be publicly pilloried!

      Your management sucks. And the AD who did this as her project should be disciplined (talked to, write-up in her personnel file). Extremely poor judgment on her part. And, she should publicly apologize to you. She castigated you publicly, she should apologize publicly (probably a mass email given Covid).

      I realize you say your AD actually reports to you, but this was a management (“leadership challenge “) failure. Management should have stopped this public shame-fest and not just let it play out. The management behind this “leadership challenge “ owe you a public apology as well.

        1. JelloStapler*

          I too am interested in a follow-up, and agree this was not the best way to go about this. I wonder how much the AD skewed things to make her look faultless/ignore situational factors.

      2. pancakes*

        This is a bit much, I think. I don’t see how it would be fair or acceptable to discipline someone who responded to an assignment “to present a leadership challenge (real or hypothetical)” by presenting a real challenge. That this particular set of challenges was unexpectedly broad or not anticipated to be discussed at this particular meeting doesn’t mean that OP was in fact “castigated.” There’s also no indication that OP was prevented from saying anything in response. It appears they were too caught off guard to respond at the time, but that’s not quite the same thing as being discouraged or kept from responding. Trying to solicit a public apology for discussing leadership challenges at a meeting meant to be about leadership challenges would likely come off as inappropriately vindictive.

  39. Fake it till you make it?*

    Any advice on how to be “nicer” at work right now? We’re in person at the office (small town, basically doing the bare minimum to avoid COVID), full time, and I used to be able to make small talk and chit-chat with people and usually come in happy in the mornings, but I am just so TIRED of: attitudes around COVID, political discussions, winter blues, not having the usual things to look forward to (seeing family, going out), and personal medical issues that I just… don’t like a lot of my co-workers right now and I don’t have the energy to pretend it. I am not quitting, not looking for another job, but I want to still be able to work with people months and years from now and I am just feeling so chilly towards everyone!

    1. Goose*

      I theorize that a lot of people are frayed at work, so you’re not the only one! Winter is wearing on a lot of us plus COVID stuff. It’s very small, but I have a generic compliment (greeting/social talk) I’m giving to folks via email right now when I haven’t been in touch with them for a while. Or thinking of something generic “nice” to say via chat and reaching out.

    2. Sleepy*

      I find the best way to avoid these frustrating discussions is to take control of the conversation and change it to something you can tolerate…e.g. “I’m looking for movie recommendations, what’s the best movie you’ve seen recently?” Or anything else that you’re okay talking about.

    3. Late Bloomer*

      I’m here with you. If you can, just don’t engage in chat. Say as nicely as possible “I’m sorry, I just need to get this done.” Try to change the subject. Be the quiet co-worker for a while. If someone notices that you’re quiet, just say “Yeah, feeling quiet” or something low stakes. Take a short walk to another part of the building for a bit. Breathe deeply and check your body for tension so you don’t hold yourself tightly all day and feel like shit when you get home.

    4. Web Crawler*

      When I don’t have the energy to feign happiness, I let people know that it’s not them. There’s a lot of steps in between acting chipper and grouching at people who want to talk (aka what I want to do).

      Here’s some of my responses to “how are you doing”, depending on my relationship with a coworker, their political views (not gonna mention covid when I know it’ll trigger a rant), and how much they’re actually asking vs performing politeness. “Just hanging in there”, “waiting for spring”, “so tired of the pandemic”, “in hibernation until *gestures* is over”. Recently, most of coworkers have responded with “I know right” and then it feels a little easier for both of us.

    5. Ashley*

      I feel like if you can splurge and bring in a box of donuts / bagels / muffins type of office snack that can create great goodwill with minimal effort. You can still feel chilly towards them but outwardly you aren’t projecting it the same way.

      1. pancakes*

        It doesn’t sound like the problem is a lack of goodwill in general so much as people repeatedly talking about wearying subjects like covid and politics. Bringing in treats probably isn’t going to help steer conversation away from these topics for more than a few minutes. Better to try to change the subject when these things come up, and if that doesn’t work, be direct and ask for a break on talking about these things in the office. It’s a perfectly reasonable request to make. Even people who largely agree on these topics can feel worn out talking about them so often.

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Are you me?

      I’m psychologically exhausted, and things that would have been a minor irritation at worst a year ago are just unbearable right now.

      I downloaded a white noise app to my phone to drown out the coworker who talks to themself and the coworker who sings to themself, and the other attention pulling noises around me for when I need to do word-based tasks, I’ve been using my phone to re-watch old youtube videos from my favorite presenters or re-listen to favorite podcasts (because I do not feel ready to be actually social with my coworkers but sometimes I’d like some company so I fall back on the good old para-social relationships), and I get up and take walks a lot. One day last week, I was about to walk into my shared work space and found two of my coworkers talking passionately about politics and I simply could not, so I turned around and went to the kitchen to make tea instead. And for about 5-15 minutes a day, I try to be pleasant and nice to people just to keep those relationships okay until I’m actually feeling ready to engage with them again. I don’t know if it’s working. I hope it is.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      The only thing that comes close in a limited way for me is the winter of 1993-94. It started snowing in October and did not stop. By December we were growling at each other. Then the county ran out of money and the roads did not get plowed. It continued to snow. By January, we all just avoided each other, because each of us knew we could no longer be pleasant. When the minus 80 wind chills started, moisture from cars exhaust froze on the roads. Pulling up to and pulling away from every stop sign/stop light was a scary challenge. I still have a scar on my face from that year.
      I think the snow finally stopped sometime in July– no not really– but the storms just kept coming with no end in sight. It remains The Winter that I compare all other winters to.
      I think we survived it by avoiding each other, with the exception of helping each other when there was an obvious problem or if specifically asked. Interestingly, when helping each other that growling and foul mood stuff was not an issue. I think it also helped to be able to say, “I am not good company today. But if you need me to help with something specific let me know. I will help.”
      It was also helpful when people did NOT complain about what it took to get to work on any given day. We were all getting up at 3 am or so to be on time for work at 8 am. It was a very long winter.

      Probably stating that you are maxed out on these topics but happy to talk about other things, might gain you a couple of like-minded people. And you, along with these couple of other people, can form your own oasis of relief from these other topics.

    8. Razzadazz*

      OMG I don’t like my current team either. Covid has stripped my ability to pretend care. I just want to do my work and not have to fake cheeriness all day and pretend to be social.

      I’m an introvert.

    9. allathian*

      One of the few advantages of wearing masks at the office is that people’s expressions are much harder to read. So even if nobody else is wearing a mask and you are, you’re already masked so you don’t need to mask (pretend to feel emotions you aren’t feeling). RBF is much harder to see under a mask.

    10. Otter Dance*

      A nice cheerful (practice smiling while cleaning the toilet or looking at your least favorite vegetable) morning greeting, and you can be “too busy to chat” the rest of the day. Also, “I’m just at an exciting part now,” to explain reading a book instead of chatting at lunchtime, can work if not overused.

    11. Fake it till you make it?*

      Thanks for the advice and commiserations! I am resolved to bring in some baked goods or individual candies in the next week or two. I’d been doing that periodically before, but haven’t in a while, and that does reliably make me feel better about being a good coworker. I’d commented because I’d been unable to muster up much enthusiasm for some good news a coworker came over specially to tell me, but I had a good recharge over the weekend and feel more prepared to put a smile on my face, even if no one can see it through my mask! What with everything going on I think I get tapped out much faster than I used to and by the end of last week I was just finished. I’m going to try to focus more on good interactions while I feel energized to have them and hopefully store the social capital for when I turn back into a grouch.

  40. Choice*

    I started a new job about 4 months ago. It was my second choice. My first choice went with someone else. First choice recently contacted me interested in interviewing me again. The person hired wasn’t prepared for the role and has quit. This would be a step up and pay increase. How do I leave a job i just started? Ive always done the minimum 1 year at all my jobs before leaving. Will my leaving so soon burn bridges?

    1. irene adler*

      You explain that the ‘opportunity of a lifetime’ fell into your lap out of nowhere.
      It happens.
      Offer to do whatever you can to ease the transition for them.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      If your previous jobs have all had long tenures, particularly if you have a couple on your record that went two years or more, this shouldn’t be a problem.

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      Is the grass actually greener over there?

      “Wasn’t prepared for the role and has quit.” Sounds sketchy, unless you have insider knowledge and/or more info on that.

    4. Hooray Spreadsheets*

      Get as much detail as you can about what preparations for the role are needed, you don’t want to take the job and find out that the company’s idea of prepared for the role is unrealistic.

    5. PollyQ*

      It will almost certainly burn a bridge with your current employer, although that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it, just that you should be aware of the cost.

      But I agree with Campfire Raccoon & Hooray Spreadsheets that you really need to dig into what went wrong with the previous employee. Having one short stint on your resume won’t necessarily be a black mark for future employers, but two back-to-back could.

    6. BRR*

      You’ll 100% burn the bridge at your current employer. Look up Alison’s post on how the 1 year mark is not magical. It’s about a series of short stays. You can get away with once if you plan to stay in this new role for a while.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      I did this once.
      Yes you will burn the bridge.
      However, it may be the case that it’s worth it.

      But at this point you don’t have an offer yet. I’d go to the interview again and try to find out what happened with the first choice. Why did they think that was a fit and what do you have that was different/better choice? You’d have to consider this very carefully. I would only jump if the money is significantly greater, or if the job is better aligned to your career path.

      1. Moi*

        I did this as well. Yes, I burned a bridge with my current employer but it was worth it. I also have worked at other jobs for many years so this one was atypical.

  41. Duck*

    I have a review coming up for a job that I started a year ago (receptionist in a long-term care facility). I’ve been instructed to come up with 2 goals. Now, I’ve never been involved with the corporate world at this level before (meaning permanent employment in the corporate world). Previous to this, I was in the performing arts as a freelance contractor, and I also worked office jobs on and off as a short-term temp in between gigs to make ends meet. My job is fine, co-workers are fine, the benefits are awesome, and I’m grateful to have been continuously employed during this pandemic. I’ve just…never had to come up with stated “goals” before. In all of my previous professional stints, folks were simply expected to do a good job and strive for perfection, without needing to tie a format to their intentions. If folks didn’t do a good job, they simply weren’t hired again. So I’m struggling with coming up with (in reality, inventing) 2 goals. Keep the large and small paper clips separate? Be more diligent about dusting the reception desk? My office and computer skills are already far above what is required for the job. I have little interest in trying for any type of certification because at this point, I’m winding down the clock over the next couple of years until I can begin to draw my union pensions and collect Medicare. Any help would be much appreciated!

    1. Malika*

      Is there a skill you would like to develop? If you can tie it to your work, then you can list that as a goal.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’ve held roles in the past where these kind of performance goals were logical for some staff/roles but not mine, but the review process was the same for everyone. Sometimes being vague is helpful: “Increase efficiency in X process” sounds like a goal without tying you to specific outcomes. “Improve skills in Y area” achieves the same.

      1. londonedit*

        Yes, or I was wondering whether something like ‘continue to uphold X standard in Y area’ would work.

    3. Weekend Please*

      Could you ask your coworkers or manager for an example of what they are looking for? That would probably be the most helpful. But you can go with something vague like “Ensure our residents feel that we are responsive when they call reception” or “Directs calls/visitors promptly and correctly to where they need to go” or even “Make sure that the reception desk is always clean and welcoming.” Basically ways to say “My goal is to keep doing what I am doing” but in a way that sounds better. I do agree that having to come up with goals seems like a weird thing for reception.

    4. RagingADHD*

      There is a letter here somewhere on the site about goals for jobs that are largely administrative/holding down the fort, with no specific projects or clear line of advancement. Can’t think of keywords to search for off the top of my head.

  42. Sleepy*

    Has anyone had luck pushing back on too many meetings?

    We’ve had a new Grandboss for about a year now, and he’s overall a good person and a good manager. He just…loves meetings. So we all have the same amount of work to do but less time to do it in, because we’re spending more time sitting in meetings.

    We’ve pushed back on this a few times and it results in fewer meetings being schedule for several weeks, but they always creep back in and people start to get frustrated and demoralized again, which suggests to me that Grandboss doesn’t really, truly get why the number of meetings are a problem. One problem is that one very vocal person employee also loves meetings and complains when there aren’t enough.

    I know this is a problem at a lot of workplaces…

    1. Campfire Raccoon*

      When you push back, can you give concrete numbers? Like, “On average, we’re spending 10 hours a week in meetings, which is reducing our productivity by X percent.”

      Or maybe try the opposite with, “Our productivity is suffering as a result of so many meetings. We’d like to make sure we’re addressing everything in meetings efficiently, without impacting our workload. To prevent that, we’d like to make a hard rule that people in role X will never have to commit to more than X hours of meetings per week.”

      I feel like this is negotiating tub time/snacks with a toddler.

    2. Distractinator*

      Is Grandboss scheduling these meetings himself? (and if so, how does he have time for that? doesn’t he have anything better to do? is this a symptom of something about his management style that he wants to be more involved in details? a symptom of him processing info verbally not written so emails don’t help him?)
      Or is he encouraging meetings to be set up that he has no intention of attending? as in “Here’s more info on the XYZ schedules, I suggest that team X and managers A and B meet to discuss”? In that case it’s a culture question – if managers A and B really wanted to solve that over email, they could do that and no meeting is necessary. So address it with the teams.
      Worst case is if GB wants to be included at these meetings (i.e. requires them to happen) but is overbooked and never shows up. On the other hand, you could leverage that as him being familiar with the overbooking problem, so let’s handle it over email while solves it for everybody

    3. swiglkip*

      Things that have worked at my company:
      meetings must have an agenda
      be thoughtful about the length, frequency, & invitees
      give people permission to decline meetings if they have a conflict, or something more important to attend to
      give people permission to block out time in their calendars (this give added weight to declining a meeting scheduled during this time)
      having a “no meetings” Friday

      This is an ongoing battle, in my experience. Some people love meetings, some hate them, & we need to be vigilent about how our time is best spent.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Can you start to schedule your productive time so that your calendar (if it’s shared) is less open? How empowered are you to decline a meeting? If you think you can decline, judiciously start declining meeting requests. Look into non-meeting collaborations like having a shared doc or Teams chat for brainstorming ideas — after all, none of my brilliant ideas occur during an 8:30 am Zoom meeting.

    5. DragoCucina*

      Perhaps if a certain hour can be meeting free and a day of the week. Because of the huge number of meetings the agency I work with has said no meetings 11 am – 12 noon. Also every other Friday is a no meeting day. Emergencies happen, but this people a guaranteed lunch hour and a day to focus on work.

    6. Hunnybee*

      OMG can I just thank you on a purely emotional level for posting this?

      I’m increasingly crabby at the new job I started five months ago, where the new manager they hired three months ago just wants us to meet all the time, and the junior employees he has since hired have asked for daily check-ins on top of all of these other meetings. Because, why not just bs all day and not do any work.

      RRRRRRRRRRRR

      Seriously I am ready to go back to being a contractor, where we only had necessary meetings and all of these administrative teambuilding meetings were left to FTE.

    7. Wordybird*

      It was a running office joke with my former boss about how much he loved meetings. If he couldn’t have a meeting, he’d settle for a phone call but a face-to-face conversation was always preferable. To be fair, his role was an outward-facing one but this bled into the office in ways it didn’t need to. After working with him for several months, I discovered that this was a personality thing (he genuinely cared about me and my coworkers) as well as him treating (or seeing) his team the same way he treated (or saw) our members.

      I began to update him more often via email/text so he was less likely to ask for a meeting or swing by my office to ask for status updates on Project X or Project Y. I also asked for updates from the rest of the team via email/text and then sent them along to him on a weekly basis so he was less likely to schedule meetings with them. I also (gently) pointed out when a meeting wasn’t necessary and how I could accomplish what he wanted via email/text and save him time so he could meet with Member A or Member B. I also “taught” him how I wanted to be treated so I only scheduled a meeting or stopped by his office for time-sensitive/last-minute issues. EVERYTHING else was an email, a text, or a phone call, and when I first began doing it, I would somehow work into the conversation something along the lines of, “I know how busy you are so I thought I’d email/text/call instead of coming down/scheduling a meeting and interrupting you…”

      We had two monthly meetings that absolutely could not be avoided so when they did, I did everything I could to help him make them as productive as possible: agendas, handouts, copious minutes, follow-up emails, etc. so at least if we were using up valuable worktime, valuable work was being done. After working with me for several months, he felt more comfortable with what was happening in the organization and didn’t feel that meetings were quite as necessary quite as often.

      There were still more meetings than I would have preferred but I did finally break him of the habit of emailing me and then walking down to my office to tell me that he emailed me and then begin discussing the contents of the email that he had sent. :)

    8. allathian*

      Someone posted a few weeks ago saying something like there are two kinds of employees, those who get most of their work done in meetings, and those who get work assigned to them in meetings that they have to do when they’re not in meetings. Naturally, the former like to have meetings and the latter don’t, at least not when their schedule is already full.

  43. EnfysNest*

    Has anyone ever reported a coworker for concerning/volatile behavior? What specifically did you say or ask for and what action, if any, was taken to address them?

    One of my coworkers has been showing increasing volatility and aggression over time, escalating from slightly rude comments when he started over a year ago to repetitive, upset rants among just our department to the point where now he has actively raised his voice and started shouting during calls with the people he’s upset with a couple times. And then yesterday he loudly slammed his hands down onto his desk while he was upset, which was the first time I’ve been aware of a physical element to his behaviors. I am legitimately concerned about this guy and the potential for him to continue to escalate his behaviors.

    My boss is aware of the coworker’s attitude and hears most of his rants (although I’m not sure if he heard the shouting yet), but has a very gentle approach overall and has been trying to softly redirect this coworker in the moment, rather than telling him his behavior is unacceptable / telling him to knock it off. Do I still start with my boss, and voice my concerns, or should I be going to HR or our safety department or someone else? Can they force him into an EAP or something like that? Can I ask for anything specific, or just say that I’m bringing the issue to their attention and hope for the best? We work for a government agency, so discipline of any kind isn’t necessarily an easy process, but I really feel like *something* has to happen because this guy has been worrying me for quite a while and just seems to be steadily getting worse.

    1. irene adler*

      Your boss may be aware of the coworker’s attitude and rants, but boss may NOT be aware of how coworker’s behavior is affecting his other reports.
      So tell your boss that the coworker’s behavior IS affecting you. Ask for boss to address the behavior. If nothing changes, then go to HR. That way when HR asks you, “did you inform your boss about this? That’s what you need to do first,” you can say “YES! I already told the boss how this behavior is affecting me. Situation was not remedied.”

    2. LDF*

      We had a guy once who was mostly nice and mostly good at his job but tended to get overly volatile when he thought other people were being “stupid”. I didn’t ever report him but after one particularly loud and vitriolic rant session, I politely went over and asked him to keep it down, and that was enough that I ended up being pulled in the HR investigation that happened that ultimately ended with him leaving (idk if fired or voluntary). I was invited to a meeting with an HR rep where I was asked to describe the latest incident and also what it like working with him in general. So overall, at least some HR departments would take this seriously. I think it’s worth reporting.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I agree with Irene. Start with your boss. Tell them that you’ve seen an increase in these aggressive behaviors and they’re making you very uncomfortable. If you want to soften it a little, you can add something about how we’re living in a stressful time right now and you can understand why Coworker would be a little more on edge, but the behavior itself is upsetting and starting to take a toll on your ability to focus on your work. You should probably also bring up that his anger has started to extend toward hitting inanimate objects, and you worry about what might happen if hitting the table escalates to throwing things or worse.

      They can’t force your coworker to enter mental health treatment, but they can tell him what behaviors are and aren’t acceptable when he’s at work. They can remind him that EAP exists if he would like to use it, but ultimately what he does to regulate his behavior is his own responsibility.

      And if the behavior keeps happening after you talk to your boss, that’s when you rope in HR.

      Good luck, and post an update when you can!

      1. allathian*

        I work for the government, although not in the US. In some cases, completing an EAP program is a condition of continued employment.

  44. ThinMint*

    I am trying to move into a bigger leadership role than I have right now. I consider myself a good ‘right hand person’ who is good at the details and getting things done. But I think in this new role I would also need to bring more strategy to the table. Having taken Strengths Quest, my top 5 are mostly Executing based. None in Strategic.

    Any advice on how to increase Strategic strengths?

    1. Emma Woodhouse*

      Are there past projects or case studies you can review? It might be helpful to practice evaluating situations to force yourself to make strategic decisions or review the decisions others have made to how they reached those conclusions and if you would have made the same calls. I also really enjoyed the book On Grand Strategy!

  45. Late Bloomer*

    Waiting to hear back from a job that would be a pay boost and career shift for me. I had a group interview and a follow-up with someone who couldn’t attend the first interview, sent my thank you email and now all there is to do is…wait.

    I’m currently employed so I know I can be patient but my mental health is struggling for various reasons and my jerkbrain has mostly focused on “you fucked up and you’ll never be good enough” lately. Trying not to focus too much on this opportunity and just keep applying…remind myself that it’s a numbers game and something good will come along.

    1. mreasy*

      Fellow mental illness suffered here. A mantra I try to remember in times like this is “feelings aren’t facts.” Your jerkbrain is trying to tell you that they are, and that it is a fact that because you are terrible you will of course not get the job! When in reality the facts are, you’ve had some interviews and are waiting for more information. This doesn’t always work for me because brains are powerful when they want to make you feel terrible, but I try! Best of luck to you in the search.

  46. CatCat*

    The boss going through an employee’s bills reminded me of this recent article about Dave Ramsey’s company, which sounds like a cultish toxic dumpster fire. I wonder what kind of turnover they have.

    Highlights:
    – You have to show your personal budget if you’re going to be hired there.
    – You will be fired for “immoral” sex, but like, only if you’re low on the totem and not an important moneymaker for the company.
    – Want a job? They’ll need to interview your spouse to make sure you’re not “married to crazy.”
    – “I’ve got a right to tell my employees whatever I want to tell them,” [Ramsey] wrote. “They freaking work for me.”

    “Is Dave Ramsey’s empire the ‘best place to work in America’? Say no and you’re out”
    https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2021/01/29/is-dave-ramseys-empire-best-place-work-america/4281535001/?fbclid=IwAR1gZeavSchFy9obtiLAZey3AvjDxBPyjZr5ihXnQyOgF9zsJnc93P4825E

    Thoughts? Anyone here ever worked for this guy?

    1. Nicki Name*

      My thought is that with religion involved, that’s not a “cultlike environment”, that’s an actual cult!

    2. voyager1*

      I used his financial advice 14 years ago, it helped me get out of debt.

      It seems after reading all that the fame has really gone to his head.

      1. pancakes*

        It sounds like there’s a lot more going on than that. Covid denialism, for example, is not something that goes hand-in-hand with fame.

    3. pancakes*

      I’d never heard of him before seeing the name mentioned here. The company sounds cultish and incredibly paternalistic and regressive.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Wow. Dave Ramsey demanded a full and complete report from a therapist who was giving marriage counseling to an employee and his wife (the employee’s wife, not Dave Ramsey’s wife!).

  47. Catriona*

    I will attempt to ask this question without sounding like a total humble-bragger or whatnot – What is the best way to respond to extremely effusive compliments on one’s work from coworkers, especially when they’ve been sent to an all-staff listserv? I’m a brand-new employee at a small nonprofit in the health field, and yes, I think I do very good work, but so do my coworkers, who are excellent. My new coworkers are delighted I’m here, and occasionally when I email a link to a resource I’ve created, and people have responded with things like, “Wow, working with you is really humbling! You’re amazing,” or “This is incredible! Are you a superhero? Employee of the year!” and things like that. I want some way to respond that says, “You’re so kind and I appreciate the positive feedback, but you’re just as awesome and it’s really not a big deal.” But maybe these quick, kind emails don’t need a response? Do I just focus on doling out the positive feedback back to others for their work as much as possible? If I DO respond to people’s big compliments, do I also reply-all, as they have done, or just reply to the person? Am I overthinking all of this?

    1. Helvetica*

      I also sometimes receive such compliments and in my mind, it is not necessary to reply all, unless it’s been a huge project/terrible PITA and if the compliments come from multiple people. But I have replied to the individual, just a quick thanks, to show that I have seen and appreciated their apprecation.
      Generally, I don’t think you *have* to reply though. If I pay compliments to others, I don’t expect them to thank me, I just do it to spread some positivity around.

    2. Cat Tree*

      Are you a woman? I’m a woman and I often feel this way. I’m trying to remind myself to just accept the praise. There’s no reason to downplay it, except I’ve been socialized since middle school to manage other people’s feelings. It’s hard to undo that. I used to jokingly respond “please direct all compliments through my boss” or “remember this during my performance review” if it came from my boss. I also tend to say things like “it was a group effort”.

      But I’m really trying to just say “thank you” and move on. For a mass email, you probably don’t need to respond at all, or you could respond to just the person with “thank you for the recognition”.

    3. CatCat*

      If you’re going to reply, just accept the compliments with grace (“Thanks, you’re so kind!”) and don’t reply-all. No need to downplay your work that others appreciate!

    5. Asenath*

      Your co-workers do sound rather more effusive than I am used to. But I always try to respond to compliments with a simple “Thanks”. I used to have a habit of brushing them off with comments like “It’s not much” or “it’s not really good, did you notice..”. I realized that response reflected my own insecurities, and often made people who were just trying to be nice to me feel that I didn’t appreciate their views. However, I wouldn’t send more positive feedback to someone who just complimented me. That may be a cultural difference – it would seem effusive and even fake, if I suddenly said someone was awesome, either out of the blue or in response to them congratulating me. But I know that sort of thing varies.

    6. Another JD*

      “Thanks for the warm words.” The End. Don’t downplay your contributions, and you don’t have to return praise in kind. Just say thank you.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I would just reply directly, if at all.

      If it’s praise for something you consider routine or low effort (like sending out a URL, it sounds like!) I probably wouldn’t reply at all, but if it’s for something a bit more involved I’d reply directly to the person with something like “thanks for the shout-out – glad I could help get the llamas groomed on time” or whatever.

      I wouldn’t get into “you’re just as awesome” etc.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      I have received things like this periodically over the course of my career. I do as one commenter suggested and just reply to the original sender with a polite thank you for the kind words.

      Like you, I worry about stuff like this. It makes me wonder whether they don’t expect me to be competent – particularly when it is over the top for something that wasn’t that big of a deal. As you are new, I’d hold off on doing anything. It could be meant to be encouraging, it could be the organization’s culture. But if it keeps up, and you don’t see anything similar for other workers, you might want to ask someone you trust about it.

    9. MissCoco*

      Sometimes I think this kind of compliment comes from people who are naturally very effusive or hyperbolic.
      At least that’s what I tell myself to accept them gracefully instead of trying to apologize for doing my job well.

  48. Karen*

    Annoyed fat women, please share your experiences here.

    So, I’m fat, and that has been my defining trait for most of my life. At this point I can honestly say I have no desire to lose any weight at all.

    I guess I’m lucky in that no one ever said anything cruel to me directly to me being fat. On the other hand, I’ve received comments like:
    – Why don’t you stand up and stretch for a bit?
    – Hey, instead of taking the elevator, why don’t we take the stairs?
    – Are you sure you don’t want me to give you a ride? You can exercise another day.
    – Aren’t you going to get more if that? (referring to forms of vegetables or supposedly healthy food like yogurt)
    – Are you going to eat all that? (referring to everything else)
    – Have you lost weight?

    I even had a boss once who told me a long-winded story of how he liked to hike, which confused me at the time but now I’m pretty sure was his way of saying “Find an activity you enjoy, and all those pounds will melt without you even trying.”

    Is there even any way for me to tell people I’m OK with being fat (and that even if I’m no longer as healthy as when I was younger it’s not really any of their business) without people thinking I’m being hypersensitive, especially since no one ever explicitly called me fat and they mostly “mean well”?

    1. Managing In*

      “Wow, why would you say that?”

      If they have any sense, they’ll be embarrassed. If they continue, address directly – “Please don’t talk about my body at work.” “That’s not appropriate.” “That makes me uncomfortable. Please don’t say things like that again.”

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah, that’s the phrase ! “Wow, why would you say that?”

        My phrase is “And your point is?” but I’m told that is too “brusque” and therefore not okay for office conversation.

    2. Wendy City*

      Fellow long-time fat person here! I was a fat kid, a fat teenager, and now I’m a fat woman. It’s amazing what people will say to your face when you’re fat.

      Depending on the context, I’m a fan of “what an odd thing to say” or “What an unusual comment!” I also like pointing out that I don’t like body/food talk in general (this is at work when I have to maintain professionalism).

      I’m also a big fan of just… calling a spade a spade. “I know I’m fat, it’s okay,” has raised some eyebrows but generally gotten people to back off. Or, asking people to explain themselves – “What do you mean by that?” said very innocently can get people to back off (or go in circles trying to back themselves out of a situation).

      For people that I have a closer connection with, an honest conversation is good too. “I’ve noticed you’ve made a few comments like X, Y, and Z recently. I know I’m fat, and that’s not going to change. It doesn’t bother me. I’d prefer if you didn’t make comments like that again.” If they push back that they mean well/care about you/are just wooooooorried, try: “I know you care – and the best way to care for me is by respecting me when I say I don’t want to talk about this anymore.”

      For people who get offended/upset when you call yourself fat: “It’s true! Fat is, or at least should be, a neutral descriptor – like calling someone tall or short or blonde. I’m fat, it’s okay.”

    3. princessbuttercup*

      Oh god, I feel for you and I am livid on your behalf. If it’s your jam, I would highly recommend checking out some fat activists on Instagram – Yr Fat Friend is a great one with lots of writings on these topics and the other day there was some great comments on a post about responding to people who use “have you lost weight?!” as a compliment (just .. don’t) so I’d definitely recommend checking that out.

      A couple of my favourite responses below, noting that it always depends on a) how close I am with the person and thus how invested I am in pushing back on them; b) the power dynamic eg is this my boss and I’m not comfortable getting too spicy with them; c) do I even have the energy or care to do this (there is NOTHING wrong with ignoring or walking away if you don’t have it in you to engaged):

      -“I’m not interested in talking about weight” or “I can’t think of anything less interesting to me than talking about weight” is my overall go to. If said with enough disconnect, it comes off less defensive and more bored which can deter a lot of people

      -to “have you lost weight?” = “don’t know, don’t care” is great but if you’re feeling spicy, “Nope, you just forgot how fat I am!” is FUN.

      -for all the weird activity and food comments, I use a variation of “I’m comfortable with my eating/activity choices” or I’ll often just act like I don’t really understand the question. Eg “why don’t we take the stairs?” = “oh, no thanks I’m exhausted today! Looking forward to those 15 seconds of standing in the elevator”

      -more than any of these, the power of a firm and strong “no thank you!” is underrated.
      “You want some more vegetables?” = “no thank you!”
      “How about we walk instead of taking the bus?” = “no thank you!”
      “Are you sure you want another slice of cake?” = “yes, absolutely!” (a variation on the above!).
      I find for me, this neutral positivity and reinforcing that yes, I AM aware of my decisions and quite fine with them, thank you (!) does a lot. However, I am more in the quote unquote “small fat” size (eg. I am fat but most of the world is still fairly accessible to me) so I think the comments I get are more subdued than what a lot of other fat folks get.

      And for all the non fat folks reading this, my gosh, please do your fat colleagues a favour and call this stuff out when you see it!! A “wow, what an odd comment to make” from a non-fat person is really helpful.

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        I also recommend Sofie Hagen. She’s UK based and very, funny and very, very smart, especially about size issues.

    4. Annabeth Nass*

      I have a friend who responds to the “Have you lost weight” question with “No, I’m just fatter in retrospect.” When I get the well meaning comments, I usually just say something like “Thanks, I’ll think about that” and then promptly forget about it.

      1. Josie*

        I’ve had people ask if I have lost weight. I just tell them they must be remembering me as fatter than I am.

    5. Anon this time*

      – Hey, instead of taking the elevator, why don’t we take the stairs? “No, I have asthma and I don’t want to risk it.” (this is true)

    6. Girasol*

      I have been surprised at how much analysis of my lunch tray I hear in the company cafeteria. If I eat a salad, “On a diet, huh?” If I’m not eating a lot, “Only that?” If I get a big meal, “Gonna have to exercise a lot to work all that off!” If I have dessert, “Ooh, letting yourself go, are you?” or “For shame!” But I’m of normal weight and fit so there’s no visible reason for people to be particularly concerned for my health. I’m convinced that such comments are about the commenters themselves and their obsession with their own weight issues. Americans are just weird about weight. So I don’t know how you say, “I’m fine with myself as I am” when the comments probably aren’t really about you anyway.

      2. Cassidy*

        Co-worker: “On a diet, huh?”
        Me: “Oh, hey, that’s so funny. I was just going to ask you the same thing!”
        Co-worker:
        Me: “Did I say something to offend you?”

    7. Mstr*

      IDK as a person who is an average and very boring unremarkable weight, I’ve heard all of those comments a million times (minus the hiking boss story). I think it’s a cultural preoccupation with weight that one just has to ignore/opt out of. I hope this is changing & happening less but there’s nothing to be gained in even acknowledging these remarks other than to brush them off. It happens to everybody. Just say you’ll stretch later or you’ve had enough yogurt for today or whatever and move on.

      1. Mstr*

        To be clear it’s very uncool that this happens. I assume you’re looking for some particular workplace advice here in the workplace advice thread.

      2. mreasy*

        This happens about 100 times as often to fat people, though, in addition to things like hiring and housing discrimination, and doctors not believing you have health problems unrelated to weight (this leads to worse health outcomes up to and including death). So as a straight-sized person, when someone asks “have you lost weight” when I have because of anxiety related IBS, it’s sucks, but I can shrug it off. But when a fat person hears a comment like this, it’s part of a pattern of discrimination and hateful treatment, so it absolutely is a big deal and is worth pushing back on and trying to get it out of our workplaces. And as stated above – straight-sized folks who witness this – please say something.

    8. Cassidy*

      >Hey, instead of taking the elevator, why don’t we take the stairs?

      This happened to me on a job interview a few years ago. As she was guiding me around to meet various individuals and teams, my hostess decided I was going to get exercise in the process. We took the stairs, every hill imaginable, walked when we should have driven – it was miserable. Every time we reached our destination, I had to visit the restroom and get the sweat off and reapply my makeup. And it was summer. I mean….come ON! Even if I were rail thin, it’s an INTERVIEW! Make it comfortable, Clueless!

      Side note: She also showed up early in the hotel lobby on the eve of the interview when they take you to dinner (earlier than the ten minutes I gave myself to be in the lobby and get my thoughts together and give myself a pep talk, so there went that). Then, the next morning, which was the day of the interview, I went to the lobby 15 minutes early, because I had to check out of my hotel room, and place my suitcase in my rental car – and there she was. No, no, no, no, you freaking idiot! Be on time or a minute or two late, but holy sht, give people some space already! And don’t follow me to the rental car!

      Gawd……

      1. pancakes*

        The interview sounds uncomfortable, but people who prefer walking to driving and stairs to elevators aren’t necessarily or invariably doing so at fat people. These are things I would do myself if I was alone.

        1. Cassidy*

          True, but perhaps I should have shared that she kept giving me the onceover. Between that and the general vibe I got from her, it was clear she was on a mission.

  49. Katie Kaboom*

    I work in the Teapot Database Department, but we work with other departments as well. “Sansa” is the director of another department, but we have to sometimes communicate with her.

    When I first started in my position, I sent an email about something to the person working under Sansa. Well, Sansa flipped out because apparently I was supposed to send it to her. She sent me an email saying that she was the one that handled that issue because she is the director, etc. Honestly, I had no idea. I was new in my position and didn’t know.

    A few weeks ago, I sent communication out to some part-time workers. I received a nasty gram from Sansa because I left out a couple workers from her department that work with the part-timers. Again, I didn’t know that they had to be included.

    Just yesterday, there was a group email on something having to do with the Teapot Database (that I manage!). I chimed in and Sansa sent me an email about how we should avoid using the group email to address people. I sent Sansa an email explaining that others have the same question, so it would be beneficial for all to know the answer.
    Well, Sansa then called me (I was in a meeting, so I couldn’t answer). She then called my boss. My boss handled the matter with Sansa, so while I wasn’t in trouble.

    Has anyone ever dealt with a “Sansa” in their job? Any advice?

    1. Ashley*

      Yes – I opt for avoidance as much as possible. It is also great your boss had your back so you might get some suggestions from them on specifics of dealing with that person. Honestly not immediately answering their phone calls and emails can be a strategy within itself because it gives you time to calm down, and do things like escalate so someone else can Sansa to calm down.

    2. Cassidy*

      Yep – currently. I gray-rock her, i.e. act bored when I speak with her, deal only with the topic at hand, and otherwise ignore her lunacy. She’ll implode eventually by her own doing. It’s only a matter of time.

      I am sorry that she is miserable, but it’s no excuse to be a shrieking btch.

  50. Finding Internships?*

    Someone I know is looking for internships or summer jobs for electrical engineering undergrad students. The school isn’t great at helping with this, so I offered to ask for input from you knowledgeable folks. I know nothing about the program of study, just that this person is a junior in a school in central New York State. Suggestions for websites or other resources this student might investigate would be greatly appreciated.

    1. HeyAnonyNony*

      “REU”, short for Research Experience for Undergraduates is a great keyword for looking for this type of thing. I’m not in EE, but I did an REU in a different field. The National Science Foundation has a “REU Sites: Engineering” page that could be a useful jumping off point.

    2. irene adler*

      Go to the job/career websites of companies that hire electrical engineers. Or look on LinkedIn (or similar job search engines). Companies advertise their internships in the same way they advertise their jobs. But start early; some post their summer internship positions early in the calendar year (like now!).
      Also might look into electrical engineer professional websites (IEEE comes to mind). They may have resources (including a local chapter) to help locate internships.

    3. Tiffany Hashish*

      Transportation consulting firms hire EE interns often. Particularly those whose projects are primarily funded by federal or state funds haven’t significantly scaled back projects or workforce.

  51. SadPanda*

    I’m feeling really down today about my job being restructured into non-existence in a few months. I was finally allowed to tell other staff members so that I can plan out my remaining time and I’ve found it surprisingly hard to answer their questions and thank them for their condolences.

    For anyone who got laid off with extra notice, how did you structure your remaining time?

    1. Lisa B*

      YUCK. Been there. My 100-person division was notified that we were being laid off in several months. I think they thought it was better to give so much notice, but it was definitely a “darned if you do, darned if you don’t” situation. Once projects got handed off (or just cancelled) there wasn’t a lot to do except job search. In my case it helped that we were all in the same boat, so everyone was really supportive of each other and nobody cared if you worked on your resume, did job search webinars, or applied to other jobs – because everyone was doing the same thing. If it’s really just you I would check in with your boss on her expectations. If you’ve documented all your processes, made sure that your files are up to date and on the server (not your hard drive), is she ok if you spend some time working on your next role while still at work?

      Good luck!!

    2. Cassidy*

      Rightly or wrongly, as much as I could, I used work time to get my resume and cover letter in order (and reviewed by professionals), tracked down references from other jobs, secured references at the job I was leaving, looked for and applied to other jobs, stopped buying coffee and lunch and brought my own (which I do to this day even while employed; I saved a TON of money!), called my creditors to see if I could get a lower interest rate, called other creditors to see if I could establish payment plans, got all my health checkups up-to-date, got my pets’ checkups up-to-date, etc. I completed work, too, but no one bothered me about it. (This was a temp job that I thought would turn into full time. My contract was renewed twice, but then the role was no longer funded. I had about a 6-week time frame to get things in order). I did other things, as well: arranged to move home, made sure I was going to get my apartment deposit back, and found a part-time job in my hometown at $9 hour for 30 hours a week so I could pay my bills and prove that I was employable, signed up for the ACA, and spent the rest of the time applying and interviewing. Took 9 months to find a professional job in my line of work (academic librarianship).

      I’m sorry, SadPanda, but things will work out for you. You’ll see.

  52. Serious Pillowfight*

    My boss, who is otherwise very pleasant and supportive, will make statements like, “Well, I COULD make you do this, but I won’t.” It really rubs me the wrong way. Like, he’ll ask us what we want to do about a situation, and we’ll say one thing, and he’ll respond with, “Well, I COULD make you do the other thing, but I’m not going to do that.” Like…we know you could make us? You’re the boss? Is he trying to remind us he’s in charge, or trying to remind us how nice he is? I don’t get it. It feels vaguely threatening.

    1. PollyQ*

      I think it’s a combo of reminding you he’s in charge, reminding you that you should feel grateful for his largesse, and possibly also a passive-aggressive way of asking you to take on the task. If it’s something you could do and wouldn’t mind too much, you might try volunteering to take it on. Yes, it’s at best a poor way to communicate, but part of the job is keeping the boss happy, and this might be a way to do it.

  53. princessbuttercup*

    I feel like this is a recurring theme, but any words of wisdom for maintaining sanity in a toxic workplace you can’t get out of yet?

    I go back next week after 4 weeks stress leave. My work has been growing in toxicity for 2+ years and I finally cracked. COVID obviously didn’t help but this was very much a pre-COVID thing and I am so so so done. It’s become a really negative environment, but it feels like any semblance of boundaries or even roles has dissipated and it’s a free for all of who can be pressured into doing the most. Our “leadership team” is abusive and constantly making agreements and commitments to funders (non profit) that are wildly unachievable, and then literally say “well, that’s your problem to solve”.

    I’m going back 2 days a week to start, but I’m really terrified of how to continue advocating for myself in an environment that clearly does not care about what’s reasonable. In pre pandemic times, I would’ve seriously considered quitting, but I don’t have enough savings to survive a protracted job hunt and my partner was laid off in 2020 (their job hunt hasn’t been fruitful, and they’re a very skilled, experienced candidate in their field).

    1. Annabeth Nass*

      I heard a Master Class with Robin Roberts and she said “Optimism is a muscle that gets stronger with use.” It has helped me a lot to focus on doing the best I can at work, and basically ignore anything that I can’t control.
      Maybe you don’t need to advocate, but just go in, do your work to the best of your ability while you’re there and that’s it. Obviously I don’t know your situation at work, but this has worked for me.

      1. princessbuttercup*

        Thank you! I think one thing I’ve really realized about myself is how wrapped up I can get in what’s “right”. I know I have no power to meaningfully impact change at my organization (or am too burned out to fight for that power anymore), but I just feel so angry at how people are being treated and how hypocritical it is based on the work my org does (mental health). It’s like it hurts my soul. So remembering this – go in, keep your head down, get out – is helpful.

        1. JelloStapler*

          I also tend to get wrapped up in this and get very invested in what *should* happen, even though it is usually factors beyond my control and so far up the chain.

          If you feel up to it I would start casually job searching now, so that you have your job while maybe another opportunity presents itself. Keep us posted!

  54. Am I a Project Manager?*

    I work in a fundraising position that involves both database management/maintenance and (pre-COVID) planning and executing special events. The database we use is one that I am HIGHLY familiar and adept with (I had used it at two other orgs prior to this one) and it’s really my favorite part of my job, though I feel I have strengths in the other side of things. The organization that runs the database is widely known in the non-profit world and while I’m not actively looking to move from my current position, I always like to check their job postings and see what sort of positions they generally hire for (as well as the qualifications necessary for each one). I have two friends who have worked there (one still does) and it sounds like something I would like to eventually move into.

    I’ve noticed a recent job posting where one of the qualifications was knowledge in Project Management. I feel like that’s such a broad term and I’m wondering if anyone has any insight on what an organization might mean when they say Project Management. For example, I routinely take the lead in planning out and executing special events, including an annual Gala fundraiser with multiple pieces (seated dinner, performance, cocktail reception, auction). Would that be considered project management? I also personally oversaw the creation of multiple records in our system, as well as a system of identifying specific records for individual segments (i.e. those who have previously performed with us, prospective donors, government contacts) to more easily pull invitation lists for events. Would that be considered project management?

    1. PM in training*

      If it’s a corporate type company they most likely are looking for formal PM training or experience. They probably are heavy on the project management institute type framework. Those processes come with a lot of formal structure and terms that you might not be familiar with.

      1. Just a PM*

        But that doesn’t mean you can’t learn them! I would still encourage OP to apply for the position if they’re interested. They would just need to revise their resume to write these descriptions in project management-friendly terms. Just spend an afternoon or so browsing PM resources (like Project Management for Dummies) to get an idea of what those terms and concepts are and tailor your experience to those concepts.

        And technically OP does have PM experience. Just not under standards like PMI or PMBok. My experience has been that as long as you have the basics down, it doesn’t matter what special letters or certification you have. As long as you deliver results.

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        In my experience if they want “formal PM training or experience” and are rigid about this they would specify project management frameworks / certifications in the required or desirable parts of the “ideal candidate” and/or talk about working with a specific framework.

        I think if this isn’t defined in these terms, you could potentially use relevant ‘informal’ PM experience such as overseeing and reporting on (the ‘reporting’/’visibility’ part is important) multiple threads of a particular endeavour, planning and executing in collaboration with others, etc.

        A very generic definition of PM is to see (through leading and tracking people’s activities rather than ‘just’ carrying out directly) that the aims of a project are achieved and delivered. Can you characterise your experiences in terms like that? – probably yes.

        I think it is worth applying even though you don’t have “official” PM experience, if that’s the subtext.

    2. Just a PM*

      “Project management” typically means can you plan work and execute it to complete a deliverable. For instance — can you identify requirements? Can you create a plan to deliver those requirements? Can you put that plan on a schedule to measure progress? Can you manage, monitor, and mitigate any risks? Can you manage and resolve any issues that come up? Can you organize resources (people, equipment, papers, etc.) to work on your requirements? Can you make a budget, get funding, and spend your funds wisely according to that budget?

      In a nutshell, project management is time, cost, and scope (aka requirement). Doesn’t matter what your deliverable or end-product is. So to answer your questions specifically, yes. Those are both projects and the skills you needed to complete that work and deliver the end result (special events and a system to track people involved) are project management skills.

    3. BRR*

      I work in fundraising and have a sense of the type of company you’re looking at. I would say it’s going to really depend on what position you’re looking at. I think some positions will be asking for very formal project management experience but your experience will definitely work for others.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      None of what you’ve described matchesmy understanding of project management. If you want to learn more, you could look into getting a PMP – or just trainings from them.

      Also if the system you’re talking about is the one I’m thinking of then this “creation of multiple records in our system, as well as a system of identifying specific records for individual segments (i.e. those who have previously performed with us, prospective donors, government contacts) to more easily pull invitation lists for events” isn’t database management. It’s using the system’s fundraising and segmentation capabilities. You may be super awesome at doing those things, and that’s a skill of its own, but if you’re using front-end tools the interact with the database, throwing the word “database” into the description is probably a misnomer.

  55. Cendol*

    Does anyone have tips for making small talk or generally upping your own level of gregariousness?

    My wonderful boss is extroverted and chatty (which is why they are The Face of Our Team), while I am very much “Okay, I’ve heard what you need and I’m going to work on it now, alone and in silence.” Sometimes I have to sit on calls that my boss can’t attend, and other participants, maybe expecting a similar level of gregariousness, leave me a lot of space to comment, which I then fill with an unfortunately deadpan, “…sounds good/what an interesting project/thanks for that explanation. I’ll get started.” I just got off a call where (off-camera) I started smiling to myself because I could tell they were a little taken aback at the discrepancy between my boss’ approach and my own. I might have to start interfacing with more teams next year (remotely), and I am quite frankly dreading it, because I hate talking.

    1. TPS reporter*

      I am pretty close to the same. My boss is also a lot more outgoing and chatty.

      I literally have a stack of conversation starter cards next to my laptop. I’ll pull them out and ask a few people to contribute in certain team meeetings (like ones where I am closer to the participants). If it’s a more formal meeting you could have a list of neutral topics ready to go- the weather, your pets.

        1. TPS reporter*

          Which fictional character would you adopt into your family to make gatherings more interesting? What was your favorite book as a child? How many states have you visited and which was your favorite? If you could compete in any Olympic event what would it be? What is the next fashion trend you’d like to see?

    2. BRR*

      I would search for small talk questions and have a couple that you can always whip out. I think an easy way to approach it is people often love talking about themselves.

    3. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      I’m someone that’s become chatty over time. I’d say lean into being yourself more and not less, it can be a false dichotomy to see it as chatty v non chatty. A more helpful distinction for me is interested or not interested. When I’m interested in people and projects around me my response is naturally engaged (but still as myself, and deadpan is fine). Your boss has had to take an interest before whereas this is a newer situation for you. Maybe prepping some topics that relate to them personally may help with any nerves. And also hosting meetings etc is like anything else, just takes practice but also by being yourself you give others permission to be themselves too.

    4. Distractinator*

      Honestly in a meeting with a purpose, you don’t *need* to make small talk. Of course the beginning of hte meeting is chatty, but the topics that flow naturally when it’s the same group of people meeting repeatedly (How much snow at your place? did you fix your snowblower? oh ya had to you know my shoulder won’t let me shovel) aren’t things that you need to try to match when you don’t work with people regularly. So just listen pleasantly and if there’s a pause where you’re expected to contribute comment on something that you can connect to (yeah 5 inches here but my condo shovels it all). But when it’s not your meeting, you totally don’t have to say much.

      Sounds like you’re also asking about the work aspects, not just “small talk” but how you convey work info. You know that you’ve got all the info you need and you’re ready to get started, but they’ve been conditioned by Chatty Cathy to expect more, so they’re surprised. Even if “sounds good, I’ll do that” is all that needs to be said, consider adding a couple of sentences reinforcing that everything’s fine – you can reinforce your connections, recap what they just said or what you just agreed on, etc. “Cathy will be really glad to hear that, she’s said a lot of good things about this project, it’ll be a pleasure to work with you” or “ok, you’ve described X and Y, you’re going to email the files to me, and I’ll be all set to start (task); I’ll get in touch with (name) if I have questions otherwise you’ll hear from me before next week’s meeting”

  56. The Zephyr*

    Medical cannabis users: Have you experienced a job search that required a drug screen?

    How is this approached nowadays? Are companies in states that allow med/rec use enlightened enough to accept a positive test for a medical user?

    1. Oven Roasted Turkey*

      Brainstorm time! What jobs can you work part-time, 100% remote, well paid, interesting/skilled, not entry level, not client-facing (ie consulting)? Doesn’t matter your industry, doesn’t matter my prior experience, and you don’t need to know any more about me. I just want to know what you know! Thanks all in advance :)

      2. Oven Roasted Turkey*

        Wow, I didn’t expect this to nest! The Zephyr, you have to do some digging but some individual states have state-level legal protections (laws or court rulings) for medical cannabis users.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      The employee handbook will probably have information about the drug screening requirements. Mine specifically said that because it’s a contractor for the federal government, we have to follow the federal rules, so no medical use :/ but if it’s not federal government, you may be OK.

    3. Louise*

      I think this depends on the company an industry. My state allows medical but we have jobs where medical cannabis would still be a problem in some positions because of safety issues.

    4. pancakes*

      Leafly is generally a pretty good source of info on this. Check out their page “Cannabis testing regulations: A state-by-state guide.”

  57. pyewacket*

    Coverletter Help Needed: For background, I am leaving my family business, I am a widow and my late husband’s funeral was very public, think news segments, newspaper articles, blog posts, podcasts, etc. If you google my name and city the first two pages are about the coverage plus my public posts. The main reason that I am leaving is because I need better pay, health benefits, I hate the environment, no longer interested in purchasing the business and I want to have a normal family dynamic again. So my personal and professional are really intertwined.

    In Alison’s advice she says to mention any issue that might give a hiring manager pause. Do I put in a paragraph that says why I am leaving the family business? Also should I mention about being a widow due to all of the press coverage?

    1. Managing In*

      A paragraph seems like too much to me, but a single sentence without too much detail saying that you’re looking to move away from the family business sounds right.

    2. Jay*

      I’m so sorry for your loss and wish you so much luck in the transition.

      I would usually advise not mentioning specifics in a cover letter as to why you are leaving, usually that comes up in an interview. If anything, I’d advise wording it as why you are excited for the new role – “The job description for this role states it involves x and I’m really excited to work more with x” – spinning why you are leaving into why you are excited.

      And I wouldn’t mention being a widow – it’s not necessary and likely to cause them to feel uncomfortable.

    3. The Zephyr*

      I would keep the focus on how you can contribute to the company, what you can bring them. Savvy recruiters will recognize you/put 2+2 together, so use the cover letter to sell them on your skills, not your personal history.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think there’s any reason to mention either of those things – you want to focus on why you’re interested in the job you’re applying for, as opposed to all the reasons for leaving your last one. I think you can use similar language she’s suggested for people who had their own business and are now getting a “normal” job again, it’s something like “I really enjoy doing [job], and I’d like to focus more on that and less on the other business functions that come with running your own business”, but definitely check the archives for better wording and adjust to better fit.

      If you’ve been at your family business for a really long time, there’s also the old standby of “I’m looking for a change, here’s why I’m excited about this position…”, also meshes well if they know you recently publicly lost your husband.

      I’m sorry for your loss, I hope good things are coming your way and you get a great new job.

    5. OyHiOh*

      I did not mention my widow status in my cover letter but did mention it in the interview that led to my CurrentJob – because the job is grant funded for a very specific number of part time hours a week and my interviewer/boss wanted to make sure I was ok with the hours. I said I was, because I and my kids have various types of survivor benefits and I don’t need a full time job with benefits right this minute.

      In your shoes, I think I would briefly mention wanting to break away from the family business, and leave the widow piece out entirely.

    6. PollyQ*

      I wouldn’t mention anything at all about your personal life or marital status, and I’d say very little about your current job or why you’re leaving it. Being a widow, even a well-known one, isn’t an issue that needs to be “disclosed,” any more than anyone else’s family status would. Focus the cover letter on what excites you about the job you’re seeking and why you think you’d be good at it. If someone asks you why you want to leave your current job, say you’re looking for more stability, or a better work/life balance.

    8. Glitsy Gus*

      I might have a sentence or two ready to go for the interview about it but I don’t think you need to mention it in the cover letter. Most people would understand someone wanting to step back from the family business a bit after a death, especially if it were your husband’s family. While, yeah, they may ask while interviewing (especially if they know your family) I don’t think anyone would count you out right away because of it.

  58. TheSockMonkey*

    I am considering a Masters degree in GIS or Geospatial Intelligence and am beginning my research into jobs and programs. I’d like to go to my local in state school for tuition cost purposes. I’m doing something else now in another field but used to work as part of FEMA’s mapping program and for a number of other reasons think this would be a good path for me. I was not doing the mapping but was in another role that involved using them.

    Has anyone completed one of these degrees? Anyone do this type of work? Wondering what your thoughts are on the job market? Types of jobs? Would you be able to tell me about your typical job duties?

    I know about training available on the ESRI site but would love recommendations for other resources.

    Thank you.

    1. Jaded Millennial*

      I have not completed a Masters degree, but I have worked in both consulting and municipal GIS.
      Job market is steady for geospatial professionals, and growing for people who can both code and understand geospatial technology.
      My job is a lot of data management, map making, and some spatial analysis.
      Reddit is a good place to get some of the answers you seek.

    2. we have some at our company*

      We have a team at our company that does GIS-related research–specifically for real estate purposes, to find new properties for investment or new facilities. I think they analyze where best to buy and build? That’s probably less info than you’re looking for, but that’s all I know, sorry.

  59. Jay*

    I’m starting a new job next week and while I’m in my late 30’s it’s really my first grown up, professional position – it’s not entry level, stepping stone or a position where I need to be trained. I’m coming in as an expert in my field and I’m so excited.

    Wondering thoughts on dressing – office seems to range from business casual (dress pants/dress shirts) to casual (blue jeans). There is an extensive range in the office from college interns to adult men nearing retirement. My role is one of the more senior positions and my education/experience puts me at the top of the office (probably third in line internally), I have room for advancement and want to go in day one with that advancement as a goal (dressing the part). I also feel in this role, I will be a bit of a mentor/role model to our college interns and want to convey a “professional woman” way of dressing, but I don’t want to come across as an old lady, stuffy, out of touch with the younger generation.

    Suggestions on how to balance that professional, powerful woman look with I’m still young, cool and approachable? Leaning towards the standard black dress pants/black jacket but pairing it with maybe a trendier shirt / brighter color or print / funky jewelry. Wondering what other suggestions are out there.

    1. londonedit*

      In my industry, I’d probably wear black jeans, smart trainers/funky flat shoes (like leopard-print ballet flats, or brightly coloured plain flats) with a ‘nice top’ (or alternatively a plain t-shirt and statement necklace), maybe a blazer but only if it was a more casual one, not a full-on black number. Or, I’d go for a smart-casual dress with smart trainers.

    2. OyHiOh*

      Me: brown/grey/black dress slacks, oxford shirts, slightly off beat blazers, either lace up flats or pump heels.

      My boss: faded jeans, old flannel shirts, the dirtiest sneakers/trainers I have ever seen outside of a cross country meet.

      My current blazers are brown tweed with brown velvet lapels, grey tweed with elbow patches, and burgundy peplin cut with a zipper. I’ve got my eye on royal blue velvet number next. Dress slacks that aren’t black, blazers or sweaters/cardigans that show some personality, and shoes/accessories are ways to be professional/powerful without reading as stuffy and out of touch.

      Also, in line with letters earlier this week, communicating clearly (“this is an assignment you might find interesting” vs “exciting opportunity”), setting good professional boundaries for yourself and respecting boundaries/mentoring people on developing professional boundaries will go a long way towards demonstrating you’re professional and approachable and not out of touch with changing norms.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m a long-skirt person (not for religious reasons, but apparently some people read it as religious), and specifically I have a ton of long a-line skirts that are varying levels of colorful and/or funky prints. So my managerial-but-young go-to is a long skirt with either a solid-colored shell and grey or black blazer, if meeting with people above me on the org chart, or a solid-colored v-neck t-shirt and denim jacket (I have them in standard blue, but also black, white and red, which are our org’s logo colors) if I’m meeting with people below me on the org chart (because 99% of the time they’re showing up in jeans). I don’t do funky jewelry, but I do sometimes accessorize with a funky scarf. :)

  60. Oven Roasted Turkey*

    Brainstorm time! What jobs can you work part-time, 100% remote, well paid, interesting/skilled, not entry level, not client-facing (ie consulting)? Doesn’t matter your industry, doesn’t matter my prior experience, and you don’t need to know any more about me. I just want to know what you know! Thanks all in advance :)

    1. Jay*

      I think you’d be hard pressed to find something that checks off every requirement on your list, specifically the well paid (which is subjective) and my interesting may not be your interesting – there are many jobs in the marketing field that could work (social media manager), virtual assistant, copy writer, there are positions in IT that might fit (though the part time could be an issue). Freelance designer roles while not consulting might be too client facing. Curious what others say …

    2. BusyBee*

      I did some blog writing as a side hustle for a while. Mostly in the cosmetic surgery field since I have a healthcare marketing background. Only did it for a short while, but I thought it was all those things.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Medical coding, possibly. I’m a team lead for medical coders and my job fits all your qualifiers except the part time one, but some of my coders are part-time.

  61. Susie*

    Today I took the day off for a mental health day. This is my first time I’ve taken a day off without a specific activity planned (travel, drs appt)…and I’ve been working since I was 14.

    It’s amazing. I do still have my work email notifications on my phone…but strangely freeing to “nope” responding today. I work in a “helping” job and have been told asking for things for myself (like a raise) hurts the people we support. So it’s been a process to free myself from that mentality…today I feel is a culmination of that process.

    What successes have y’all had in self care and setting boundaries at work recently?

    1. Web Crawler*

      That’s awesome! Can I share a success that’s kinda the opposite of setting boundaries? (I have a problem with social anxiety and talking to people is tough when it’s not strictly work-related.) I sent a nice note to a coworker who’s also dealing with awful back pain right now.

    2. Cendol*

      I also took a mental health day this week and scheduled another for next week! It’s made an incredible difference. I feel so much calmer. My next attempt in self-care will be returning to working out or going for walks during my lunch hour. Work has been so busy I’ve felt reluctant to take any breaks away from my computer, but this week I’ve managed to take the full hour away from my desk twice, and that’s been helpful (even if it means I’ve had to stay a little later in the evenings to wrap things up).

      Congratulations on setting boundaries for yourself!

  62. Galli*

    Any tips for managing the hangover of a really bad job? I left a really traumatic working experience just over a year ago. I started a great new job this summer, but had a lot of anxiety about job related issues. I started seeing therapist, got referred to a physiatrist, and got diagnosed with trauma syndrome/PTSD. I love my new job, but now I’m especially worried I might mess it up—I thought I could put the old job behind me quickly but knowing this (and seeing that I’m still affected) it seems like it will take a lot longer. I didn’t tell anyone at my job about my last one, and I know I come off as anxious and jumpy. Should I keep mum and hope to improve? Or is this something to bring up? I don’t think it overly affects my job performance and my supervisors have said they are happy with my work (Covid has been limiting interaction though). They have said I should speak up/be more proactive which was punished at my old job and makes me feel physically sick to do. Has anyone gone through this? Does it with time get easier? Are there ways to manage it (beyond therapy/meds, which I am doing).

    1. Cendol*

      I can relate. My previous work environment wasn’t *toxic*, but people had a lot of bad habits, personality quirks, and bonkers levels of territorial behavior that have taken me a while to shake off. Whenever I catch myself tensing up or anticipating blame, I make myself take a deep breath and remind myself that this is a new workplace full of reasonable people with reasonable expectations. If I’m really tensing up, I get up, walk around my office space, and drink some water or eat a snack. (Really! It interrupts the panic.)

      I would not tell anyone about your previous job and would continue to do what you’re doing, which is all the right things. Remind your anxious voice that you’ve received nothing but positive reviews, and that reasonable supervisors will absolutely let you know if/when you’re having performance issues and work with you to resolve them. And be patient with yourself! It really will get so much easier with time!

    2. Hunnybee*

      Ohhhhhh I’m so sorry that happened to you, and I actually had a similar path.

      My previous job was a nightmare. I literally cried much of the day, and fortunately we were locked down by then so nobody knew. I was so desperate to get out that I took the first offer I got, which — while not as toxic as my last place — has nothing to do with my career path or hopes, and I really don’t connect with my boss. It’s a bummer. I really just had to get out of there and I was willing at that time to take whatever showed up just out of survival.

      However, I feel much more normal now, less desperate in my life, so I am thinking of this job like a transitional relationship. If I had gone directly from my nightmare job to my dream job, I would have failed. I feel like having a less toxic but not perfect job has allowed me to recalibrate to feel normal again. I can deal with not perfect, but I couldn’t deal with the brutal work environment that I endured before this. The best comparison I can make is an emotionally abusive relationship that erodes every sense of your self, your confidence, and affects every aspect of your life.

      That said, I have not said ONE WORD to my new colleagues about my previous job. Honestly, in reality, people don’t care all that much, so it’s easy not to talk about it. I have put all of my focus in doing the best job possible where I am, even though I don’t love it. All of the extra energy I was putting toward that previous job I am trying to redirect to learning new things, applying for the next level job I would like, and being very thoughtful about what I do next.

      I have also allowed myself more time to sleep. More time to read books and do other things that are not work-centric. More time to reconnect with friends I haven’t spoken with in a while. I tried to do therapy but the one therapist I met was pretty flaky and so I have been reading about PTSD and Trauma. I have been listening to subliminal ocean soundtracks that I downloaded from Amazon that focus on happiness, feeling secure and peaceful, and overcoming trauma.

      And, I got a prescription from my Primary Care Physician for xanax, which I would use a bit at first when I would feel anxious and overwhelmed. I would take half a pill when I felt all of these emotions bubbling up, and it helped interrupt that mental spinning. I just realize that I haven’t taken one in three months!

      I feel a little weird saying all of this because I think that some of my family doesn’t believe that a job can really be that traumatic and I was being super snowflake dramatic or neurotic. But truly, I understand where you are coming from; your post is very similar to my own experience, and an abusive work environment is every bit as damaging as any other abusive relationship. I promise, time will heal.

  63. Another Librarian*

    I work at an institution that requires a high level of involvement in professional organizations but does nothing to fund it for employees, so our promotion scheme is basically pay to play. Leadership is not receptive to feedback on this. Every time I have to pay hundreds to renew my memberships I daydream about not doing it and saying in my eventual promotion interview that my involvement is limited by the financial obligations. I doubt that would go over well either, though. Sigh.

    1. QAFork*

      Propose a system or process to alleviate some of these costs. If 3 different memberships can be handled by 1 less expensive or more encompassing software… that is what I would look for!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve been in the exact same position and I’m not surprised your leadership isn’t receptive. Mine wasn’t. Is there a way you can chose which organizations you’re part of that are cheaper? For me, that meant realizing that I could join 3 national groups (ACRL, ALA and RBMS) for the cost of 1 other national group (SAA). I only was a member of more expensive group when I had to go to their conference to present and I just swallowed the cost for that year only. I see you’re a librarian too, so I wonder if maybe a similar trick will work for you. Good luck!

    3. DragoCucina*

      Does it need to be Big ALA? Your state or regional associations may give you the creds you need at a lower cost. Also, there’s often a better chance at leadership opportunities. The round tables are often hurting for new folks.

  64. Whiskey on the rocks*

    So I have an employee who is pretty sensitive. He tends to not take criticism well. I do my best to be conscious of that, and frankly yes I do sometimes walk on eggshells a bit.

    I am required to put on a training for any of my team who do not consistently meet a particular metric. This is most of them (lots of new people), and it does include him. He is the only person in the training group who has been with the company longer than a year.

    He is livid that I’m requiring him to attend. He’s a solid employee, not amazing (obviously, otherwise he wouldn’t be in this class), but valuable to me in a lot of ways. He thinks that is reason enough to not make him attend. I don’t see how that’s fair to anyone else who has to do this. He called out the next day, he was so upset, and 2 days later is still barely speaking.

    Wouldn’t I be playing favorites if I didn’t include him in this class, based on these criteria?

    How do you handle people who are good employees but who take any level of criticism so personally?

    1. JustaTech*

      If he can’t take any criticism then he’s really not a good employee. Part of working life is learning to take reasonable criticism of your work well, and it sounds like he hasn’t figured that out yet. I personally hate getting back an audit review (because there is always something, but I always want for the first review to be perfect), so when I have one of those coming I either read it at home (so my coworkers don’t see my initial reaction), or I step into the bathroom to make my upset faces, calm down, and get back to work.

      And if you’re required to give a training to people who aren’t meeting a specific metric, then that’s what’s required. So not only would you be “playing favorites” (with someone you don’t actually like), but you’re not actually helping him at all, because he clearly needs more help in this area.

      Hopefully someone else can suggest some phrasing to help “Bob” understand that this is not a personal attack, but simply based on his performance, and also that part of being a good employee is taking reasonable criticism of his work well.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yes, all of what JustaTech said. I don’t like criticism either (who does, really?), but I remind myself that I need to know how I can get better if I want to be really good.

    2. PollyQ*

      Smash those eggs! He’s not meeting the standards for the job, so he needs to go to training. The fact that he’s been around a little longer is the opposite of an excuse — he should be better able to meet the standard given that he’s had more time to learn.

      Definitely don’t let him out of the class, and don’t let him get away with his bad attitude. Have that hard conversation about how he needs to not only meet the metric, but be able to take criticism and maintain a pleasant, professional attitude in order to succeed in this job.

      1. Cassidy*

        Yep.

        Whiskey on the Rocks, it is your perogative to him in the training. Frankly, I’d consider his reaction a performance issue and worthy of a write-up. You’re not doing anything wrong; you are in your role because you are deemed a good assessor of who needs what kind of training.

        Meanwhile, very likely, deep down, he knows you’re right. I’d wager his reaction is one of “How DARE Whiskey on the Rocks have the nerve to call me out on my BS! How DARE Whiskey on the Rocks not let me get away wth it!”

        Yep. Smash those eggs, and with a smile.

    3. Ins mom*

      The metric exists for a reason. You didn’t make it up and ‘you are being required’ to give the training. He better just get over it.

    4. pancakes*

      It would send a really bad message to everyone to let him skip the training on account of having an unprofessional and outsized emotional reaction to it. He should attend the training and you should talk to him about his childish response, at minimum, if not put him on a PIP. Being livid, avoiding work, and barely speaking to colleagues are all, individually, outlandishly truculent responses to being told to attend routine training, and he’s done all three.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      How do you handle people who are good employees but who take any level of criticism so personally?

      IMO: you’re asking the wrong question, and/or the wrong (or incomplete) things are being measured.

      He’s sulking, plain and simple!

      I really doubt he’s “so upset” he had to call out the next day (especially as he is “refusing to speak” 2 days later — I wasn’t aware “mad at my boss” is something you can call in sick for, but you live and learn…(!)) but rather, this is his way of getting back at you somehow.

      Would you be playing favourites if you didn’t send him to this class? Yes, if the criteria are clearly defined and reasonable.

      Clearly defined – yes (seems like).

      Reasonable – unclear. How is it possible that he’s valuable in a lot of ways, enough to keep around rather than just firing due to poor performance, but failing at this metric. Is it so important / all-consuming that even if someone is a solid performer in other ways, if they are failing at metric X then they are considered on the down and out?

      Without knowing what the metric is, it’s a little bit concerning that you have to “put people on training” for not meeting it when the de facto expectation is that most new people won’t be meeting it. There’s potentially a morale or at least “how it’s presented” situation there, e.g. when starting at a new company it’s reasonable to need training obviously, but less reasonable to have it characterised as “you aren’t meeting job metric X, but that’s expected due to being a noob, so off you go to this training along with the other noobs” — is it the case that some of the new people do meet the metric immediately and so don’t need to do this training?

      If he’s not meeting expectations after a year and that’s way out of the norm in your organisation, I’d be thinking about a PIP rather than just sending him on the training again. Have you had a conversation with him outside of “you aren’t meeting metric X so you have to be trained”? Has he been on this training already? (Reading between the lines yes, but it wasn’t actually stated.)

      1. TechWorker*

        Yeah, it sounds like he’s overreacting but I think it does depend on what the training is! If it’s redoing something he’s already done and it doesn’t relate directly to the metric he’s not yet meeting (think, training covers the basics, but in order to meet the metric you have to really ramp up efficiency), then I can see why it would be demoralising.

    6. Whiskey on the rocks*

      Thanks for yalls perspectives. I have gotten a lot better with not showing it and with being logical about it, but knowing people are upset with me immediately triggers my anxiety and imposter syndrome. This one got to me.

      I know I was very vague. For a little more context, we are essential retail, so not a “professional” environment, and he (like a lot of my team) is very young. Part of my unofficial job description has come to include teaching 18-25 year olds work norms, many in their first “real” (ie, not part time in high school) job. Some days that role is just harder than on others.

      1. JelloStapler*

        I hear you on critical/sensitive employee triggering imposter syndrome. I had this experience in my first supervisory job and it kept me up at night. Things ended up being reorganized for other reasons and I have since received “I can see why that was so difficult” comments from those supervising this employee since, some of them with much more experience than I!

  65. Cryptic signals?*

    I had a full-day virtual interview for a professional staff opening at a large healthcare system at the end of last week and was told that I was one of three finalists, and that the final decision was hopefully going to be made this week/next week. My interview seemed to go really well and I got a lot of positive feedback.

    This morning I received an email from the internal recruiter who’s coordinated scheduling so far, asking me to meet with her early next week to discuss benefits. She also enclosed benefits info (health/dental/retirement/etc.) but no offer letter or salary range.

    Good sign? Bad sign? Am I reading too much into this? Maybe she intended to discuss benefits with every finalist but wasn’t available on my interview day?

    1. SunnySideUp*

      This is somewhat common now, I think. She’s giving you this info so you have the entire picture.

      I wouldn’t yet assume you have the job…

      1. Cryptic signals?*

        Ah, good to know…this is definitely great info to have, but it just seems weird it’s happening now, many weeks after my initial interview and a week after my 8-hour-long virtual interview!

    2. Managing In*

      Can you ask her when you meet? “Can you give me an idea of the next steps and timeline in the hiring process?”

      1. Cryptic signals?*

        I definitely will…I was tempted to ask for more clarification when I responded to her email earlier, but I resisted the urge. I imagine if there is an offer letter, it’ll come from the hiring manager (since she and I have been in email communication in between/after interviews so far), but if I still haven’t heard from the hiring manager by the time the internal recruiter and I meet on Monday, I’ll definitely see if there’s any more info the internal recruiter can provide.

    3. Jay*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it – in interviews where we’ve had a benefit discussion before an offer it’s often because the benefits could be a deal breaker and they want to make sure of that before moving forward with an offer.

      Though you mention it being in a large healthcare organization, I’d have to think benefits are decent.

      I’d take it as a good sign in the fact they are still interested in you (if they were definitely not going to consider you they wouldn’t be bringing you in to discuss) but I wouldn’t take it as a sign you are getting the job.

      1. Cryptic signals?*

        Indeed, the benefits are excellent (even beyond the health insurance part), and nothing I would be inclined to object to or negotiate differently :).

        I hope it is a good sign!

    4. Weekend Please*

      I would take it to mean you are still in the running but the job isn’t necessarily yours yet. So a neutral to good sign.

      1. Cryptic signals?*

        Thank you! I’m trying to not get my hopes up…hopefully when I chat with the internal recruiter on Monday, she’ll have more insight for me as to where they are in the process. I was initially thinking the hiring manager might also reach out to me today too (if this is indeed a prelude to an offer), but it’s past 5 PM where this employer is, so I won’t be hearing any further from them today or this weekend.

  66. Lovecraft Beauty*

    I’ve got a co-worker (junior to me, but I don’t supervise him) who consistently takes days off …and then works. This drives me bananas because I believe in strong work-life boundaries and don’t want this to be the culture on my team, but since I don’t supervise him, I don’t think I have standing to say anything. Our shared boss is super laissez-faire, or I’d say something to him, but I can’t think of a way to make him care. We’re all salaried-exempt, so I don’t think the kind of timesheet accuracy concerns that might be a lever applies here. Is there something I can do here, or is this just a “swallow the irritation and defend your own boundaries” thing?

    1. irene adler*

      Think you’ll just have to let things be.
      Or, drop a bug into your co-worker’s ear that, sooner or later, management might expect to see the same output he’s producing now (via working on days off). So if he ever were to actually recreate on a day off, this could reduce his production level. ( Load leveling is a good thing. )

    2. Weekend Please*

      Depending on your relationship with him, I think it would be ok to ask him why he works on his days off and make it clear that it isn’t expected. But if he is working because he wants to I’m don’t think you can do anything to stop him.

    3. ferrina*

      Options seem pretty limited. You don’t really have standing to say anything. Some people really, really like working, or feel that they NEED to work and nothing you can say will make a dent in their thinking. They may even resent you for suggesting it (yep, that’s happened.)
      If he looks up to you as a mentor, I would go with irene adler’s suggestion of having a discrete talk with him about management’s expectations- I’ve seen a lot of people get caught by that trap without realizing that it’s there. Just one talk, then let him handle it from there. Unfortunately, he may need to learn this the hard way.

    4. Razzadazz*

      Hmmm. I don’t think that all teams are sensitive to neurodiversity issues. Maybe your team isn’t providing what this employee needs to be able to focus on work. Like, maybe your colleague is being overwhelmed with meetings, as are many of us…and actually could use your support, rather than judgement!

      I’m in a team that has amped up the administrative meetings since getting a new manager. I’m an introvert. I need heads’ down time so that I can focus on things that require sustained concentration and I am not able to work while in back to back meetings for hours at a time, which drains me.

      I was going to take a day off (today, ironically) out of desperation to have time to focus on my project without meetings and without the implicit judgement of not paying attention to the slack chatter and lame memes all day. It isn’t because I don’t value work life balance!!! It’s because I need time to work without being expected to be social or in meetings that aren’t relevant to my project.

      Some of us need quiet time. I’d rather use my vacation days for personal time (which I do not feel I should have to share with my colleagues!). But if your colleague needs that time to work, perhaps you should not make this about yourself, apply a little empathy, and think about why this person might need support to carve out time to do work.

  67. JustaTech*

    Is it worth correcting the CEO when they spell your name wrong in an email that wasn’t sent to you directly?

    Context: I have a slightly unusual name with two common and one uncommon spellings. I have one of the more common spellings (used by a famous actress).

    I participated in a (virtual) outreach activity recently and the CEO sent an email to the head of the group that organized the activity thanking me (and the other people) for our work. And he spelled my name wrong (he used the most common spelling).
    I don’t know if it’s the weather or what, but it was super deflating that he got my name wrong.

    Normally I wouldn’t really want the CEO to know who I am (it makes me nervous), but he’s already over-invested in my current project so that ship has sailed.
    Is it worth me sending him an email to say he got my name wrong? Should I ask someone else to point out that he got my name wrong? Or do I let it go until he does it in an email *to* me?

    1. Managing In*

      I’d let it go once and assume he was busy and made an error. If it happens again and he’s not a generally rude and unreasonable person, email him privately to kindly correct (Alison has scripts).

      1. JustaTech*

        I mean, *I* think he’s an unreasonable person because he insisted on a whole department lunch in person, indoors, with him after he flew up from a COVID hotspot, but aside form that he doesn’t seem nearly as touchy as the last CEO.

        But privately, yes. I would never correct anyone about something that minor in public.

        1. Managing In*

          Did you also post about the awkward mandated in-person lunch? Or are there 2 of these bosses out there? Either way, that was ridiculous and you have my sympathy rage.

          1. JustaTech*

            Yeah, that was me. I can’t tell if he read the room and how very uncomfortable we all were. It would be nice, but my hopes are low.

            1. Workerbee*

              Ah, it sounds like even if you floated your name correction over to him on a sparkly pegasus, he’d still manage to mess it up the next time, because he doesn’t seem to care much about other people.

    2. Chef Boyardee*

      I always default to letting these things go. I have a brand name that everyone (probably charitably) tries to spell as the name-name. Think: my parents went with Boyardee and everyone defaults to Boiardi (The pasta chef’s real Italian name, just a fun fact).

      My work email is also firstname.lastname so it often makes me roll my eyes to open my email inbox and see to: boyardee.pasta and right under it, “Hi Boiardi,” even from within the organization.

      It’s much easier said then done, but letting it roll off my back benefits me way more than then them, because they don’t care anyway, so I’m just wasting my own emotions on it. I correct it where it matters – publications, for example, but internally, I just share a knowing Jim-From-The-Office look with my work friends who know better.

    3. Common Otter*

      I have a name that causes people to get it wrong in a couple of different ways. Even if they can see it in front of them. If it’s nothing serious, I’ve just defaulted to letting it go but being silently amused by it by myself. They still mean me, they’re not confusing me with another person, and everyone knows they mean me, so no harm done. It has happened through my whole life so much that I just find it kinda funny how it keeps happening and have realized that it’s not that serious at all. But in those cases when it actually matters that they get it right, I just casually correct them in the moment. Maybe also throwing in a light comment on how everyone makes that mistake with my name so they don’t need to feel bad about it, if it fits the situation. So I’d say let it go for now, unless it’s going to cause some problems that your name is incorrectly written. And maybe casually correcting it if it happens again.

  68. Coworker Is Involved In A Blood Feud*

    Blood feud info in an open thread was requested, even though there’s really not that much to tell. Whatever caused the blood feud happened long before coworker was hired.

    So my coworker was having trouble one day, so I suggested they message the person who is involved with that account to troubleshoot the problem. Coworker replied “we are not on speaking terms”. Team lead and I expressed confusion. Coworker made it very clear that they want nothing to do with this person, and occasionally whenever members of their family are hired on in other departments, they tell us they don’t want anything to do with them too, because something happened that made various branches of their family Not On Speaking Terms.

    At the moment, it’s not causing any problems, because I can just handle all requests that involve Person Coworker’s Having A Blood Feud With. However, I’m…. not actively job hunting now, but doing research that will eventually lead to job hunting, and applying to particularly interesting positions found via research. Within a year, I will be aggressively job hunting. So, coworker’s unwillingness to speak to this person is eventually going to come back to bite us, but by that point, I will not be part of us.

    1. JustaTech*

      The whole family? Wow.
      I could understand something personal between two people, but for the whole family to not be on speaking terms, wow. Did you manage to work for a company full of Hatfield and McCoys?

      That’s just so … weird.

      1. Coworker Is Involved In A Blood Feud*

        Nope, just fairly large family, and one of the largest (and THE best paying) businesses in the area. Between the number of people in the family, the fact that most people around here really want to work here in one department or another because it pays well, and the fact that they’re being very discrete about it, so no one is flagging it as something to rule one of them out for a job, it’s not surprising several people in that family are here now. They seem willing to reduce “angry blood feud” to “will not talk to them, ever” levels in the name of continuing extremely lucrative employment.

    3. MacGillicuddy*

      Is management aware of this feud? Can you mention it to your boss? This depends on your relationship with your boss, and whether they’d react ok. If so I’d use an approach like “Boss, I just want to give you a heads up about something.” Recount your experience factually, and add that you’re ok with dealing with the person-who-Coworker-must-not-name. I would not mention your job search, but you can always use the “if I get hit by a bus” line (or the less dreadful “if I win the lottery and move to Tahiti “ line).

      If your boss wouldn’t take this well, then that’s a different problem, and management will have to deal with it eventually.

      1. Anon pandemic style*

        I’ve recently moved on from trucks & lotteries to “If I wake up tomorrow without a sense of smell.”
        Managers sit up and take notice.

  69. Secretly_divorcing*

    The past year made it clear to my spouse of 15yrs and I that we only feel friendship love towards each other. We both want more so are very amicably divorcing. We started the process last year but as there are minors involved, it won’t be final for another two months. We are living in same house as roommates (yea extra bedrooms), so externally very few people know.

    Due WFH, it has been very easy to work around lawyer/court meetings and inevitable emotions without revealing what is going on to anyone at my work. I prefer to wait to say anything until it is finalized. Any suggestions for how to notify the team? There is a false sense of “family” within members of the team, so feelings may be hurt by the fact I didn’t share during the process. This approach is what we feel is best for our family and keeping our divorce no conflict.

    1. Temperance*

      This might be a little extra, but one of my acquaintances and his wife divorced amicably – sounds like a situation pretty similar to yours, although maybe a little less friendly, and they actually put out a joint statement on Facebook and social media once it was final.

      If your spouse is up for it, maybe you could work on a statement together to share with family/on social media, and then share a more edited version of that for work. You could always add something about how you and spouse wanted to work out the details and figure out a plan to move forward as friends and co-parents before sharing your news with the world and how you wanted to focus on building your family for the future.

    2. Jay*

      I don’t think you need to say anything – if your name is changing, sending out an update: Going forward please send correspondence to my new email address jsmith@company.com. People will suspect from there and if anything is asked simply as you stated – Spouse and I have decided to separate. If you want to add more you can that you’ve split on amicable terms and would prefer to keep it a private matter.

    3. Anono-me*

      I’d suggest leaning hard into the ‘we are trying very hard to make sure that our divorce is amicable , respectful, and discreet; especially for the sake of the kids’. You might actually want to have a preemptive conversation with one of the information nexus people in your office to that effect.

  70. Seashells*

    Kind of a funny story: My counterpart is off today. Her whole family has a stomach bug. Phones are ringing off the hook as we are having a membership appreciation week and kids are on winter break, so I’m the only one picking up the phone. Director wants the phone to roll to another department if I’m busy because he doesn’t want it to go to voicemail. Our IT/MIS/phone people do not know how to make it do this. Our science program manager is currently on the phone telling them how to do this.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I don’t want to be that guy but this seems coincidental:

      My counterpart is off today. Her whole family has a stomach bug. Phones are ringing off the hook as we are having a membership appreciation week and kids are on winter break, so I’m the only one picking up the phone.

  71. Middle Manager*

    Good news (?)

    After a little over a year of searching for a new job, I have an unofficial offer to transfer within my government department to another office in the city I’d like to live in (because I have family, including delightful small humans, there that I care a lot about). It’s really great news. And still, I’m feeling very sad to be walking away from work that I truly love. While our office itself is completely dysfunctional, the work we do matters to me deeply and isn’t work I can do in the same way anywhere else in my state as we at the government agency with statewide authority over the policies for this subject area. The work I’m going to is also good work to be doing, but it’s just not my particular passion in the same way my current work is. But my quality of life overall will be massively improved, so I think it’s worth the trade off. Anyone else made a similar transition have advice for this type of situation?

    1. Works in IT*

      I’m also preparing to do something similar, though in my case, I’ll be going from somewhere that’s doing truly cutting edge work in my field, at a place where it’s going to be next to impossible to ever move up because higher ups tend to stay in their jobs for many, many years, to somewhere that isn’t doing cutting edge work, that will allow me to broaden my knowledge base so that I can eventually apply for MANAGER in cutting edge work jobs.

      As I look into these on the surface not really my passion positions, I’m keeping in my mind that broadening my perspective will just make me even better qualified when going back to my true passion is in the cards again. And that, in and of itself, is something to be passionate about.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      There are two pieces to this. The leaving and the going to. There is almost always sadness when leaving a work you love and a place where you have been happy. But there is also excitement at going to the new place and taking on new challenges.

      Allow yourself to feel both. But when the sadness of leaving gets overwhelming, focus on the delightful small humans and other benefits of the going to.

      Congrats and good luck!

  72. Getting a PA*

    I am at the stage where my work is hectic and only likely to get worse. I am still mid-management so not yet entitled to a PA from work. Several of my acquaintances suggested I get a personal assistant, though none of them has experience with one. I am single, live alone, and so far have no hobbies. I am hoping that by outsourcing some of my life admin I’d be able to do more things then gradually increase the level of outsourcing to a PA the busier I get.
    How do you go about getting a PA whom you finance yourself? What types of activities do you outsource, what can you realistically expect from them? How can you test their abilities? How do I manage client confidentiality with meetings etc. as I am in strategy consulting

    1. Temperance*

      I don’t think you could really hire someone to work with you personally to manage your private life and work unless that person was also employed by your company and bound to the same confidentiality rules and protections.

      Are there specific tasks at work that you need help with? Instead of getting a full-time assistant through work, maybe telling your manager what would make your life easier could be a good start.

    2. Jules the First*

      You can’t get a PA to work on anything to do with your job unless that PA is an employee of your company (which also means they can’t have access to your work calendar or work email). You might find you get more mileage out of a cleaner or housekeeper – I started having someone clean my home once a month and do a few loads of laundry and put away my grocery delivery when my career got really crazy and it made a huge difference to how overwhelmed I felt. I used a few hours a month of a concierge service as well for a while for things like booking holidays or coming up with options for gifts or apartment-hunting.
      Work-wise, find some people you respect who seem to have their crap together at work but also don’t yet have a PA and find out how they make it work – you may be missing opportunities to delegate things to your existing team or there may be tools or systems that are available to support you. Heck, it took me three years to find out that my company allows more junior staff (who don’t have a PA of their own) to “borrow” time from a PA in the same business unit for specific things (in our case, coordinating travel and meetings while travelling, or troubleshooting video conference calls). But I’ll also say that you really need to learn to handle your stuff without a PA because when they do give you access to a PA, it’s because they are expecting to see you step up and handle even more complex tasks…the PA is not there to make your workload lighter, they are there to free up more of your time to do the high-value, complex things that make money for the company. I now have a (lovely and very efficient) PA, but she simply ensures that I spend more of my time dealing with things only I can deal with and less time sorting through my inbox and triaging my calendar…if anything, my typical workday is more complex now rather than less.

  73. Elenna*

    Anyone who works in an office where most people are remote for part of the week, how do you manage desk space?

    Background: it sounds like after the pandemic, we’re very likely to move to some sort of hybrid system where most people work from home 1-3 days a week (exact number yet to be decided). Which is great, I’m looking forward to it! The issue is, I had a one-on-one with the director of my section on the company (i.e. my great-grand-boss) and she mentioned that this would probably come with a move to a hotdesking setup.

    Which makes sense! I imagine it’s hard to justify the expense to pay for desks/office space for everyone when it will be empty more than half the time. Plus there have been several complaints about the way our section is spread out over 4 different floors, and hotdesking would make it easier to consolidate everyone on one or maybe two floors. But I’m worried about the various issus with hotdesking that anyone reading this site is probably familiar with – nowhere to store stuff, issues with ergonomic equipment, issues when too many people are in at once, lack of private space, etc.

    I didn’t bring up most of these issues in the one-on-one. My director was obviously excited about the idea, and I felt weird being like “but here are all the problems I read about online” especially since most of them don’t apply to me. She’s a good director and I do feel she’d welcome constructive feedback, but it’s still an awkward kind of conversation to have with someone several levels above you. I did ask about storing files or personal items, she said there would be lockers and management hoped printing files would be less of an issue now that the pandemic has forced us to go (mostly) paperless for a while.

    Senior management around here is very good at being open and answering questions, so I’ll probably ask some of these questions anonymously when this plan is officially announced. But in the meantime, I’m curious what the AAM community thinks – maybe hotdesking works better than I think when everyone is partly remote?
    Senior management

    1. Elenna*

      Ignore the repetition of “senior management” at the end, was editing this post and left it in by accident :P

    2. JustaTech*

      Ooh, that’s a challenging one. I have friends who worked in places where everyone hotdesked every day and it got weird quickly (people would attempt to “claim” desks by leaving yesterday’s Starbucks cup on it).
      One thing I’ve heard that helps is if everyone has a locker (or a half-height rolling file cabinet) where they can keep things like ergonomic mice and keyboards and their mug and notepad and pen and all that stuff. Chairs are a harder proposition, but maybe if people are only in one day a week they won’t need their ergonomic chair that day?

      I guess another way to look at it is, why are people coming in on those days? Will it be mostly for in-person meetings and collaborative work? Or will they be expecting to do focus-time work as well? If it’s that Chocolate Teapots come in on Tuesday for meetings and collaboration, and Teapot Painting comes in on Wednesday, then hopefully the noise/ lack of *your* stuff won’t be as detrimental.

    3. ThatGirl*

      My situation sounds very similar to yours, so I’m interested in this discussion — I just started a month ago, but we’ve been told that once the office is fully reopen we may need to hotel/hotdesk, thanks to there not being quite enough space for everyone.

      And I have to admit, I’m maybe a tiny bit bummed about not having a designated workspace? Because I’m the kind of person who likes to personalize my cubicle. I would at least like to know there was storage for a few personal effects such as a mug, favorite mouse, pens/pencils, etc.

    4. TPS reporter*

      We’re discussing this too and sounds like we’ll have a similar situation with most people being in 1-3 days/week. Some things we’re trying to nail down: ensuring each cube has a docking station, keyboard, mouse and monitors that all work (we all have laptops we bring from home to work and back); potentially having a desk share situation where 2-3 people “share” depending on their schedule; each smaller team within the bigger department having a designated area to call for their team and work out who goes where on what days; enforcing a wipe down rule at the end of every day. We already have lockers but I am not sure they are for long term use. Have to look into that.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Look into 5S, there’s elements that can apply to shared office spaces.
      Part of the business initiative addresses cleanliness issues in shared spaces–designed for factory floors, can be applied to office spaces.

  74. BlackCatOwner*

    I’m frustrated by my job hunt because I am getting pressured by a recruiter to take a huge paycut.

    I have 4 years of Accounts Receivable experience – 3 years at 1 company, 1 year at another. I have an Associate’s Degree in Accounting and a Bachelor’s AND a Masters in unrelated fields. I have 15 years of over all professional work experience (mid-life career change). This year I’m trying to move to a staff accountant role. I’d like to keep my current salary (I’m not looking for an increase). It’s not wildly out of sync with what staff accounting roles pay, there are lots of them out there offering my range (mid-60s, major east coast city). There are many MORE of them out there offer mid-50s.

    My recruiter thinks I should be targeting the mid-50s because my AR experience “doesn’t count” (her words), even though I’ve done balance sheet reconciliations, AP accruals, and totally owned two subledger accounts throughout the accounting cycle (AR and prepaids). I have experience with multiple ERP systems, posting journal entries, intercompany transactions, foreign currency transactions, implementing automation solutions, writing SQL queries, EDI….I have done so much more than just billing and collections, and all of this is on my resume in accomplishment-focused format.

    It’s so frustrating to be getting told none of that counts. I have spent the better part of 10 years working to become a staff accountant! I was told I need an accounting degree – check. I was told I need to gain some entry level experience – check. Build a track record of achievements at an accounting job – check. Now I’m being told that I need to take a $10K paycut?! I feel like Charlie Brown running at the football. I know my resume is well written and I’ve tweaked it to highlight my general accounting related experience first, as opposed to AR specific,.

    Does anyone have advice for what I might be able to say in my cover letters to help highlight that I’m a qualified employee? I’m not applying to jobs where my experience doesn’t align, I’m targeting jobs which advertise wanting 1 – 2 years of accounting experience. To be clear, I’m willing to engage in a long search. I have a job with good pay and benefits, so leaving that for a job for less pay makes no sense, even to get the title change. (Maybe in a year but certainly not right now).

    Or can you recommend job boards specific to accounting? (I don’t have a CPA and don’t really want one, nor is it required for the sorts of roles I’m looking at). I’ve been mostly on Indeed and LinkedIn.

    I’m also open to networking advice. I went to community college online in another state. I don’t actually know what organizations or events I should be trying to attend in order to meet other accountants and begin to build a professional network.

    Thanks, and to everyone else grinding through a long and frustrating search – just keep swimming!

    1. Managing In*

      Not all recruiters are created equal. Do you have to work with this one? If yes, do you have to take her word as gospel or can you say something like “I’ve considered your advice and I’d still like to apply to (job/s)”? She can tell you you’re unqualified and need to take a $10k pay cut, but you’re the final boss of you.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      It sounds like bullshit to me. Maybe you should tell the recruiter that you’re not interested in being underpaid.

    3. *daha**

      I don’t know anything about the industry or your qualifications, or recruiters for that matter, but is it possible that this recruiter has been tasked with recruiting people to jobs that are really hard to fill because they pay $10K under market? It sounds like she is trying to fit you to the job openings she has.

  75. Wendy City*

    I’m approaching the one-year anniversary of my first-ever firing. I took a position as a writer with an agency, only to be let go 31 days into employment–exactly one week before coronavirus shut the country down (for the first time).

    I knew I was struggling with the role – and turned to AAM for advice on how to handle it (maintain a positive attitude, show that you understand how serious this is, etc). But it was still a shock to get let go so quickly when I didn’t like, try to burn the place down or rob anyone.

    Thankfully I’ve landed (mostly) on my feet – some long-term temp positions that are in my field/resume-builders, and just today had an interview for a full-time-with-benefits job. Honestly the best possible outcome given the timing!

    Anyone else fired quickly/under odd circumstances?

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I was fired after 8 weeks because an executive told me that I was better at typing and shorthand than the other admin. The other admin told the branch manager that if he didn’t fire me, she would quit. So he fired me, and he told me that that was why he was firing me. And he told me that since I was fired before I completed three months of probation, I was ineligible for rehire by any of that company’s branch offices. And he said that he would tell anyone who called for a reference about me that I had been fired and was ineligible for rehire. I solved that problem by not listing that company on future resumes.

    2. BlackCatOwner*

      Oh man, yes. I’ve been fired many times, some were deserved. Some weren’t. I’m sorry this happened to you and glad you landed on your feet.

  76. At this point, will take Ferengi over Fergus*

    I’d appreciate an advice on dealing with what seems an overly sensitive team member (Fergus). I am not Fergus’ manager but I am senior to them and handle part of the project they are in charge of because of my special skill.

    I run by Fergus’ manager (my peer) an assignment for this project, and got an approval to hand it of to Fergus. I sent a friendly email (hey, this is now going to be done by you, here is how I will train & support you). Fergus got upset and told me I should have asked them first if they want to take on the project and that they want to focus their energy on the project overall. Am I out of line here or is Fergus? Since when employees get to pick and choose what needs to be done? If relevant, Fergus has been recently promoted to this position, and our company is dealing with lots of upheaval, so I can see it being stressful to have multiple priorities and roles that keep shifting. Yes, nobody likes to be added more work, but from where I am sitting, my workload is much more (I know this for sure) and I am needed on higher level matters so my time should not be spent on menial tasks. So I think they need to pitch in (instead of focusing on something that is generic and happening 8 months from now like they would prefer).

    To add to this: Fergus got upset I asked them about whether their assistant (new hire) has been trained on specific software. I asked because I need the assistant to complete a task for me (again, it’s has been made clear I will use specific # of hours from the assistant). Instead of telling me “no, coming next week” or “yes, already trained”, Fergus felt I insulted them by asking this because they have a plan for the person’s training, and Fergus felt I am not trusting them to manage & train assistant.

    Fergus’ manager is all about “let’s talk about our feelings”, and I am like, step up your understanding of the work norms.

    Rant over. Opinions welcome! Thanks.

    1. Jay*

      For your first half – I’m going with both/neither. I do find that Fergus being upset is an extreme reaction, but I could also see your approach maybe wasn’t correct. I’m leaning towards Fergus’ manager giving his direct report the new task would have been better, unless you had a good relationship with Fergus that it made sense for you to go to him. Just from my personal experience – my supervisor often doesn’t know my day to day activities, how busy I am, etc. Usually when my supervisor needs me to take on a new tasks, there is a discussion – what is your work load like? This task includes this or that, is it something you can manage? I find in general, employees like to have that conversation, discuss it and even if the outcome is still they are doing it, they feel included.

      But your additional comment – maybe Fergus has some other issues at play? Getting insulted for asking if someone was trained on a task because you need them to do something seems out of line.

      I’d also advise your attitude about your workload being more, you’re on a higher level and they should pitch in – unfortunately that’s what comes being a manager, you are expected to work more but you also get paid more. Your comment that your time shouldn’t be spent on menial task (as probably someone closer to Fergus’ level), you come across that “you are too important to waste time on tasks that someone beneath you can do” – I worry your tone may come across negatively and you telling Fergus of this new task read as “I’m too good for this, here you do it”

      Maybe not the case at all but I would make sure your delivery is appropriate, Fergus’ attitude could be a reflection of how you are presenting yourself.

      1. At this point, will take Ferengi over Fergus*

        Thank you for the input, I really appreciate it & I will keep reflecting on my tone.

        I guess I look at the task delegation from point of view of 1) whether we want to spend $15/hour or $20/hour on the same task, depending on who does it; and 2) whether what gets delayed on Fergus’ plate has bigger impact on the company’s survival/progress. I do understand if something was out of scope of work it would need to be framed differently (this was not the case) or if their plate is very full and they need things to be prioritized/take off it’s different (this was not the case – per their manager, but I can see Fergus seeing it differently because they are trying to prove themselves in a new role and want to focus mostly on “fancy” things?).

        I think I tend to have direct but friendly and kind communication – I say “please” and let me know if we need to sort our priorities and if you have any questions + I give all colleagues credit for their work (privately & publicly). And if somebody will bring up an issue, I will listen. I do feel, however, that if something is somebody responsibility that I should not have to coddle them and say “pretty please with sugar on top, would you be so kind” for them to do their work. And that if somebody doesn’t do their job and doesn’t communicate why or what they need to do it, it is an issue for me. But I’ll definitely be thinking about it more…

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes — it’s not about someone being “less than.” It’s about their time literally costing the company less. Work should flow downward to the lowest-level person who can do it well (assuming there’s room on their plates for it without hardship), so that higher-level/more expensive people’s time is freed up for work only they can do.

          Senior staff generally isn’t being paid to work *more*, they’re being paid to do higher-level, more skilled/complicated work.

      2. Weekend Please*

        I do think it may have been better for Fergus’s manager to give him the new assignment. It sounds like you and Fergus have different views of his role. He wants to focus on his core job and feels he should have some power over whether his role expands or shifts and you feel you should be able to give him tasks that should be a part of his role. And I can’t say which of you is right based on the information presented. You probably need to talk to his manager about this and work out a way forward.

        Based on your description, I can see why Fergus is upset. It sounds like you essentially are treating him like he answered to you when he doesn’t. If you add in different communication styles (you sound like you tend to be direct and to the point while he wants more conversational/softening language) and he probably feels like you are being rude while you feel like he is being inefficient. I say this as someone who tends to be overly direct so I do understand that your intention isn’t to be rude or demanding. But sometimes it is better to bend and add in some social niceties to keep goodwill. Talking to him about why you need him to take on the new task instead of telling him that it is now his task might go better.

      3. TechWorker*

        As you get more senior you take on more *responsibility* but that’s not the same as just constantly increasing workload (not should it be! That would be a really unhealthy way to operate).

    2. LGC*

      I’m leaning towards Fergus being out of line here, especially based on the second story.

      For the first: you got approval from his manager to assign them that task, so you’re the wrong person to get mad at. I can understand Fergus being annoyed by it if it’s normally a task that’s done by upper-level employees and will continue to be so – it’s a bit like the LW from earlier this week who basically got pushed into doing a job a level above hers for nearly a year before she was formally promoted. But if that’s the case, the person to direct their concerns to would be their manager, not you.

      For the second: that’s just extremely touchy. You were asking a question, and they responded like you were trying to manage them. That’s pretty out of bounds, IMO. Even if your boss is touchy-feely, things usually work better if you pretend like the other person is acting in good faith.

      So, yeah, the score is you 2, Fergus 0.

      That said…here’s some unwanted advice! I think you might need to be explicit with where you’re coming from with Fergus, in order to protect yourself. You might have to be clear that you’re asking out of curiosity, or that you ran something by their manager and they agreed to it. It’s annoying, but…as you yourself state, it’s not your job to manage Fergus, and it’s not your job to manage Fergus’s manager. And if they complain about it? As long as what you’re asking about gets done, that’s all that matters.

      Also, I wonder what the gender-neutral version of Fergus is. I’m so used to “Fergus” = “man who’s behaving badly at work” that I almost used he!

      1. At this point, will take Ferengi over Fergus*

        Thank you! This feels so right – “you got approval from his manager to assign them that task, so you’re the wrong person to get mad at.”

        And, the more I am finding it seems that Fergus is in BEC stage with me due to feeling being singled out while it is truly same approach I use with all managers.

        Ha, I would go with Fergi for the plural, just because I like it ;-)

    3. Troutwaxer*

      I’d want to know two things before I went all “workplace norms” on anyone. First, did this come “out of the blue” for Fergus or did they have some warning from their manager that you could be expected to contact them and assign them some work. Second, how much work does Fergus currently have? The fact that you do more work than Fergus doesn’t mean that either of you isn’t overworked. Also, whatever this task Fergus is on which ends in eight months still has a plan and a critical path; I don’t think Fergus is wrong to consider things which are happening in eight months, particularly if he’s the one who gets clobbered if that thing doesn’t happen correctly and on time. I’m assuming you want Fergus to get this task done, whatever it is.

      Moreover, it sounds like you’re being Mister/Miss insensitive on a massive scale. You seem to be all about giving orders and not asking questions, and if someone just appeared in my life and flat-out told me “You work for me now, and so does your assistant, I’ll be telling you how to train your assistant, and you just need to follow workplace norms” I’d go right through the roof! (“Follow workplace norms” is first-cousin to “Shut up and do what I tell you!”)

      I’d say you should have asked for a meeting with Fergus and said, “I’d like to involve you and your assistant in our llama-grooming project, but first I’d like to know what you’ve currently got on your plate and when it’s due, and I’d like to answer all your questions about the project, then we can see how it all fits together.” Sometimes all that’s necessary to have employee buy-in is to actually treat the employee like they’re a human being with projects, priorities and pressures of their own, and to ask, not tell!

      In short, sometimes it’s not what you do, but how you do it! So if I were in your shoes I’d go to Fergus and apologize for mishandling the issue, and I’d strive to be a much better manager for Fergus in the future. The key to all of this is that you ask questions and gather information before making demands of anyone.

      1. At this point, will take Ferengi over Fergus*

        I appreciate your point of view. To clarify, both Fergus’ and the assistant’s work for me has been discussed and pre-approved by Fergus’ manager. This new pieces has been approved by Fergus’ manager and I emailed Fergus explaining that & letting them know what it will look like & how I will support them. Let’s say I am a Senior Animal Tail Specialist and Fergus is a Llama Manager. I work also with buffalos, wildebeests, zebras and camels (and corresponding managers), and recently we added goats and cows, so things are busy. I asked Fergus to take on the polishing of llama tails, with my training and support, since all other managers polish the llama tails, it just was not happening for llamas with previous manager for specific reasons. And, Fergus can clearly push some tasks back (per their manager), they just I guess “prefer not to” like the post from this week . Yes, things for 8 month from now are in ideal environment something to plan for now – but we are in “this ship is sinking, everybody to the pumps” and Fergus is saying “I’d rather focus on how the tour of our destination port will be arranged”. This is not outside the scope of the Llama Manager so I am puzzled why Fergus feel it’s fine to “prefer not to” and acts like I insulated them. I was wondering if they don’t understand that with the promotion comes the necessity to handle more tasks and be flexible to priorities and working with other teams.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I’ll reiterate. Ask questions and gain information. It may truly be that Fergus is being monumentally clueless and asking questions will prove this. Or it might be that Fergus has some issues you don’t know about. Or maybe the hand-off was badly handled between Fergus and his boss. I’d definitely ask questions before going all “workplace norms” on the guy. Questions. Lots and lots of questions.

          I’ll also suggest that Fergus’ long-term focus may be appropriate, particularly if company’s problems are COVID related, because between vaccinations and a recent Israeli discovery that a fairly-inexpensive cancer drug gives a ninety-percent-plus cure rate for COVID (I haven’t seen any feedback about that discovery, but if it’s true it’s a huge game changer) we could be in a radically different business-environment in the next ninety days, and Fergus may be ahead of the game on that one. Or not.

          But you won’t understand the problem unless you ask questions and seem truly interested in the answers.

        2. Black Horse Dancing*

          I do wonder why Fergus’ manager didn’t approach him. “Hey, your boss said it’s OK I give you this load of rocks to crush with no heads up and I’m going to tell you just how to do it.” What? Why in the world isn’t boss talking to me and not you? Can we discuss this as I have 8 acres of rice to plant and rock crushing is going to crush me?
          You seem to be heavy handed and Fergus snapped back. Is there a reason Fergus was told by his boss or why it wasn’t even discussed with him?

          1. At this point, will take Ferengi over Fergus*

            Well, I can see how you would see that as bad situation, but this was not a case of an overloaded employee. As to why the manager didn’t communicate it directly: We are a smallish company and there is need for people to wear multiple hats/work in projects from other areas in crunch time etc. I already work on this project with Fergus, esp keeping them in loop whenever I use the project’s assistant’s time (assistant is managed by Fergus but was hired to help Fergus and I on both our Llama project work). We are part of the same meetings etc. Fergus is NOT crushed and their manager is sure of that (communicates with them regularly), that’s why manager was fine with this to be added to Fergus’ assignments. I understand Fergus might feel crushed, but that is more the case of thinking that in July they need to plant rice, and how they always just prepared the seeds and now they need to do the planting too. I am asking them to crush small/medium pebble ;-) 4 times between now and July. And, the pebbles are on the rice field that is managed by Fergus!

            In hindsight, yes, it would probably be better to have manager communicate to Fergus directly, but honestly, this is a company where I had peers and bosses assign work to my direct reports WITHOUT talking to me at all. So I felt good I at least cleared it with their manager instead of presuming Fergus has time or just dumping it. I’ve been working hard to change the culture of this. But perhaps I have been in the dysfunctional environment for too long… If Fergus had an issue with the decision, they could have asked their manager (“hey, your peer has assigned me this with your approval, but you didn’t talk to me”) instead of feeling insulted by me? If the work needs to get done and there is limited # of people to do it, and we know one has time and is capable of doing, it makes sense for the company to have them do it, no? Again, if they were crushed, I agree there’d need to be conversation about prioritization etc with their manager.

            I think Weekend Please above has touched on lot of the differences view of the role & the communication differences that are probably contributing to this, and I am pondering how to practically apply it.

            Again, I appreciate all the comments!

      2. SummerBreeze*

        Wow, this is n incredibly ungenerous reading of the OP’s situation. Might you be projecting a bit here?

  77. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Is it ever appropriate to offer unsolicited feedback on someone’s resume? I’m part of panel interviews right now, so I’m seeing some of the resumes that are getting submitted. Let’s just say a lot of them could benefit from Alison’s advice. This isn’t a Federal job, you can make your resume shorter. No, you don’t need an objective statement. I don’t actually care where (and when) you went to high school. Nothing that’s a dealbreaker, but things that could make their resumes stronger if they were changed.

    1. Jay*

      If there was something alarming on their resume, I would consider reaching out – it’s pink, smells like roses and uses a comic sans font. What you are talking about seems to be maybe more subjective and personal preferences. Yes, we all hear that you don’t need an objective statement but there are some hiring managers that don’t mind it or actually would like to see it. I find at times resume standards vary by industry (in my role it’s not as important to list out technical skills, in my spouses field it’s fairly important). You may not care where/when they went to HS but the next hiring manager might. As you said, these items aren’t deal breakers and I wouldn’t advise giving advice that may not in every situation make their resume stronger.

  78. Reluctently training*

    Anyone UK based successfully pushed back on signing up to pay back training costs if you leave within a certain period?
    The training is needed in order to do part of my job and it is in the company’s interest to have someone who is trained. Although the training would be useful if I wanted to do the same thing elsewhere I don’t want to, and probably wouldn’t want to advertise that I’ve been trained to any new employers, as I don’t enjoy it. So the training is not useful to me except in the role here and I wouldn’t do it here except I have to!
    My jobs fine but I don’t really want to feel I have to stay here for another year+ or pay a lot of money for something that only benefits my current job.

    1. Bagpuss*

      I think you can push back a bit on the basis that the training is necessary to do your job, rather than being something that benefits you.
      They can’t actually force you so simply saying that you are willing to do the training but are not comfortable with signing as the course isn’t going to benefit you personally may be enough- they can decide how much they want you to get the qualification.
      Is there any pay rise associated with getting the qualification? If not, that’s another point to raise- that while you have no plans to leave you aren’t comfortable incurring a possible debt where there’s no related financial benefit to you

    2. Bobina*

      Oooh. I dont think so. Often the condition of the company paying for the training is that you stay for X amount of time and I’ve never heard of anyone being able to negotiate that out. Maybe take a look at your contract and any employee handbook in fine detail to see if there might be any exceptions, but I wouldnt hold my breath.

      You’re better off trying to make a case for someone else doing the training, but again – depending on the role, that might be hard. Unfortunately this is one of those situations where I think its going to be pretty tricky to get out of.

  79. Epsilon Delta*

    Someon observed earlier this week that many businesses have been able to temporarily suspend/delay travel, but it’s not possible for them to suspend travel permanently. For these businesses, some tasks have to be done on site or they don’t get done. Although these tasks can be delayed, there’s a limit to how long they can be delayed. Eventually it impacts the business negatively if these tasks remain undone.

    I’m curious what some examples of this situation are! I imagine there’s a huge variety of things that require onsite presence of a specific person/team to accomplish. A couple examples I can think of:

    *Filming a movie/documentary. I have no idea how the film industry works, but I imagine a year without producing new content might not feasible for a lot of companies/producers (again I have no idea). Also, in the case of documentaries, some content may be time sensitive and need to be filmed while it’s happening or right before/after.
    *Setting up or repairing a large piece of equipment (eg manufacturing equipment or large medical device like an MRI). Equipment breaks or needs to be updated periodically, and the customer likely will not have the expertise to do all of this themselves. The machine’s manufacturer or a trained technician would need to travel to the customer’s location.

    What other tasks require traveling onsite to perform, which can be delayed for months but not indefinitely?

    1. JustaTech*

      Here’s my example: I work in biotech, and we make a medical treatment. One of our suppliers has been having trouble with a particular test they *must* run for us for over a year. Our team has been working with them remotely on what is going on with this test, but no one could figure out the problem. It’s a pretty long test, so not really something where you can ask them to Facetime while they do it.

      So after many months of fuss our two experts flew out to watch them do the whole thing from top to bottom to see if they could figure out the problem. Unfortunately for our experts they flew in and out of DC right before and after the Capitol riot, so they had what they described as a scary flight back with a bunch of un-masked weirdos.

      I think that the site visit helped them figure out what was wrong with how the vendor was running the test.

      Other examples: we had to train a lot of people in using a new, complicated instrument. Maybe this could have all been done virtually, but the decision was made to fly out the experts to do the training.
      Right before COVID (last February) I did a site visit of a potential new contract manufacturer, because we needed to have personal eyeballs on the facility to make sure it was everything their sales people said it was (it was!). I was also supposed to go to a current contract manufacturer’s site in Italy in March (ha!) and after the visit was canceled we tried to ask about a virtual visit, but that was nixed by their legal team, and in the end we figured we could figure it all out without seeing it in person.

      Interestingly the people at my company who used to travel the most, the sales team, are not traveling at all; it’s only subject matter experts on urgent trips. (And the CEO because he’s lonely or something.)

    2. Skeeder Jones*

      I would say the following might fall into that:
      Opening of a new location for a company
      Certain types of audits/inspections (like food manufacturing type things where you would need to be onsite to view the process and machinery)
      Certain types of purchasing (thinking the purchase of heavy equipment type things) may require a company to deliver the item (since UPS doesn’t really do bulldozer delivery). My brother in law works in highway patrol and he has to supervise some of those oversized load deliveries that take place in the evening (requiring electrical lines to come down, things like that) so the company may have staff that travel to oversee those kinds of moves/deliveries.
      Some types of training can’t be done online or virtually and sometimes requires a specialization that is rare which would require travel
      Someone who is an expert who would provide testimony at a trial (there may not be local options and some trials do need to move forward)

      I think that’s all I’ve got right now but I bet I’ll be thinking about this late into the night lol

    3. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I work in a construction adjacent field. Some of us will have to be on site doing stuff because you can’t dig holes from home. The people who do things like project planning, safety, background research, etc might be able to do a lot of their work from home but will need to come on site to check various things occasionally.

  80. Figgie*

    My spouse has a quick question for the insightful people here at Ask A Manager. (He is in the middle of a database crisis and asked me to post for him).

    He will be retiring in December of this year (and has notified the company about that) and he was wondering if he needed to be available for questions after he leaves the company? I think that his giving them 15 months notice of retirement should be adequate. :-) But he isn’t sure.

    What do you all say? Be available (and if so, how often and how long?) Or be done and tell them not to contact him?

    His boss is an extremely anxious over-worrier and uses my spouse as his security blanket. Most of what he suggest my spouse needs to do, my spouse just ignores, as it isn’t really necessary.

    1. QAFork*

      In my opinion, that’s entirely his decision. He has shaped the company in some capacity, and so his ideas will survive on beyond his physical presence.
      If I were in his position, I would ration out 1-2 hours on a certain day of the week to sit down and answer any questions or give foresight on issues. Maybe this could be set on a contractual basis, or out of good will and favor.
      His boss needs to be able to lead without over reliance on another individual.

    2. Anonymato*

      I would recommend he has overlap with his replacement. If the replacement can get trained and then try run things independently while having your spouse there, it would hopefully prevent questions later on. So during this time, boss is being “trained” to ask new hire questions instead of your spouse. If new hire doesn’t know, he goes to your spouse. There could be overlap for full time first, than part-time and the consulting hours for another month if needed to “wean” the boss off ;-) The message being, I trained my replacement, I trust him, you can trust him too. And giving replacement pointers on how to have the boss feel supported so they are successful in their role. After that I’d not answer questions (unless the work is very cyclical and some won’t come up until later).

    3. JustaTech*

      Does your spouse *want* to be available? Are you going to up stakes and move away and retire utterly? Or are you staying in the area and your spouse might want something to do?

      If they are interested in the idea of doing a little work, then they should set up an LLC and consult for their old company, at a pre-specified rate. Just because they’re retired doesn’t mean they should work for free!

      On the other hand, if your spouse is done done done with this company, then there is no obligation to keep helping after they leave. Set up all the documentation, have a good succession plan, and leave with a spring in their step and a song in their heart.

      1. Figgie*

        Thanks for the advice! To answer a few questions, he is staying for the big database project and they won’t be hiring to replace him until after that, since they don’t know exactly what skills they will want.

        He is more than ready to retire. He will be 69 by next December. They want to keep him and have offered him part-time and/or contract work. All that was on his end of year review for goals was the big database project and documentation for things that will need to be done by someone else after he leaves.

        He reads everything that people here write and trusts you to be less biased (I want him to retire) than I am. :-)

        1. JustaTech*

          If he’s ready to retire then there’s no reason to stay and help or be an consultant. I mean, what are they going to do, give him a bad reference? :)

          He’s given them hard work, documentation and plenty of lead time. If they can’t make it work then that’s on them, not him.

          Enjoy your retirement!

          1. Figgie*

            Thanks everyone! He thinks he will just not mention his unavailability after retirement to anyone. :-)

    4. PollyQ*

      He does not need to be available at all. Not for one second. 15 months notice is vastly more than most employers get, and if they haven’t cross-trained someone else in that time, that is not his problem to fix.

      I don’t think he needs to proactively say anything about his availability when he leaves, one way or another. It’s entirely possible that he won’t be asked about anything, so leaving with “And never contact me!” would sound kind of harsh. By the same token, even if he feels like still being helpful, I would tell him not to volunteer for it. No need to put the idea in anyone’s head.

      If he does find himself getting requests, one option would be to available for, say, a month, but after that, tell boss that he wants to enjoy his retirement now.

    5. IDK*

      We have contracted with retirees in the past to have them available for questions. Sometimes we have them come in 1 day a week or half a day to help answer questions and aid the new person, but it is always as a contract employee where they are paid for their time and is usually set for a limited time.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      December is still 10 months away and I presume they have known for 5 months already, which is ample time…

      Are they putting any kind of transition plan in place or are they just assuming they can continue to draw on his knowledge?

      There’s no “obligation” here, because all the usual “jeopardy” goes away (e.g. he’s retiring, so presumably won’t be needing a reference from this company.. although never say never?!)

      I think given that y’all have a 9-10 month lead time he ought to be encouraging people now to recruit a replacement (if needed) and/or hand off knowledge to others in this time, and making it known that he’ll be unavailable after that date.

      He could potentially respond to things for a couple of weeks after the retirement date perhaps as a gesture of goodwill.

      Do you get the sense that his boss has a real appreciation of the fact that he will actually be gone in Dec? Or is boss relying on your spouse’s availability so not making alternate plans?

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        (What would it be like if, in an alternate universe, he wasn’t at the age/life stage that people typically retire but rather gave a much shorter notice period to move on to a new job? What would they do in that case?)

      2. Figgie*

        His boss is pretty much pretending it isn’t happening. To the point that when he told his boss that this year was the last year he was ever doing a specific process and someone else needed to be trained on said process his boss didn’t even respond. And it is a business critical process that will never go away and my spouse is the only one who has ever done it. All my spouse said was he needed to know who was going to do it so he could give them all of the documentation.

        They seem to be mostly hiding their heads in the sand and pretending that he is always going to be available. :-)

        It isn’t like my spouse needs the work. Even at his age, he gets recruited all the time (he is an IT purple squirrel with a broad range of knowledge that other companies are desperate for) and he can continue working as long as he wants. In fact, we are now wintering south of the border while he works remotely and he has a job offer from someone living here for him to work as little or as much as he wants.

        But there are a lot of things we want to do that can’t be done while he is still working, so he has agreed that he will retire as of January 1st, 2022. :-) They are going to be shocked because if they don’t quit screwing around and get that huge project under way, they are going to have to do it without him, as he will really, for sure be done at the start of 2022.

    7. NotMyRealName*

      He needs to figure out what he wants to do and then hold firm, otherwise he will end up like my brother who “retired” last April and has supposedly been winding down his work. Last time I talked to him he was still working more than half time.

  81. QAFork*

    What are you all using for form/ survey management and tracking within your team(s)?
    What level of manual labor is involved? What automation?
    I’m trying to understand how businesses are flowing in this aspect.

    1. Anonymato*

      For forms: Google Forms, ProProfs (for diplomas generation under the Quizz -I have not found another option, at least for price -it does surveys too), Formstack (let’s you surveys with logic, do signatures and has secure fields and option for payments). GoogleForms is no cost and easiest, and I do like that it can send response to Google Spreadsheet (and that I can set up Notifications on the said spreadsheet to know when somebody filled it out). I feel like GoogleForms can be bit finicky if you try to have lots of sections and conditional logic. All 3 make it easy to create a copy of the survey & tweak, all 3 can notify you when filled out, all 3 can send a copy of result to the person filling out the form, all 3 can have results be viewed as individual response or as a table, and all 3 can be exported to Excel.

      Do you mean tracking for just the survey or general? For tracking and automation, it seems we’ve done quite a few: Basecamp, Toodledo, Asana and Monday.com just the last 4 contenders. It really depends on the features & price point you want. Automation on Monday (once you learn) is really cool – things like it can change status after 3 weeks from start date & request an update from “guest account” member, link different sources of data (boards) together & send out a notification – but other things are bit clunky (although it seems they keep coming up with new features). Monday has a way to make any table a survey too but cannot send a copy to the person submitting as far as we know. For some reason, I don’t like to use it for my “to-do”, just for the fancy stuff ;-)

      For timesheet, if you are looking for a solution, I need to give a shout out to free version of Toggle

  82. RainbeauxStego*

    Por favor, I would like some tips for how to cope after surviving a layoff you kind of wish you hadn’t? I am so resentful towards the company, especially now, but have to admit that for my industry, they pay the most. While I have been seeking other work and considering setting up my own business, those things have so far not been working out. As I continue to job search, put steps in place for my eventual business, and continue at the current place, what tips do you have, particularly from people who have lived this situation? (I am seeking beyond self care/stress management tips as I am doing a lot in that arena and it helps but still really struggling.)

    1. QAFork*

      I’ve been here before.
      First, dont take it personally. Generally business do things in the interest of profit .
      Call upon your local network for opportunities. If you have friends or places you have gone to many times, they are often willing to meet you with open arms… if you can show them some level of mutual value.. or a skill set.

      1. RainbeauxStego*

        Thanks. Doing therapy work on myself re: don’t take it personally. My network is pretty tapped out at this point for multiple reasons: previously worked for them and got burned, they have their own small business now with no need for staff, or layoffs impacted them as well. I may have a couple places to explore though.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      What would things look like if you’d been laid off rather than surviving the layoff?

  83. Language Lover*

    Interviewing for a promotion at your current company.

    My place of work has a policy to have open searches to fill roles, especially higher level roles. As a result, both internal and external candidates get asked similar questions.

    How do you handle “negative” questions as an internal candidate? What I mean by negative is questions like “tell me about a time when you had a conflict with a coworker” or “tell me about a time when a project didn’t go well” or “tell me about a time when you and your supervisor disagreed?”

    Some of the answers using the current place of employment might be fine but external candidates have an advantage, I think, in that they can pull from more recent history without worrying about insulting a current supervisor or the way the company does things.

    If you ever had that situation, did you just go back to previous jobs even though they might have been a long time ago?

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      (Sidenote: I wouldn’t characterise those as “negative” questions per se but rather reframe them in your mind as: scenarios of normal things that happen in the course of business and you have to deal with… and (in the interview process) an opportunity to present yourself in a good light in relation to them.

      e.g. Is it “negative” to have a conflict with a coworker? well, it could engender negative emotions, but I think it’s fairly standard to encounter conflict with people.)

      I would just tactfully use recent experience in your current place of employment (and/or draw on any previous experiences that seem relevant).

      I don’t think (e.g) “a time when you and your supervisor disagreed” would need to lead to “insulting a current supervisor”. Why do you think so?

      I could think of numerous times I’ve disagreed with my boss about something, and either he prevailed or I prevailed, but in any case I wouldn’t characterise any of it as “insulting” each other but rather: we had a discussion about topic X; my boss felt that it was more important to take a purist technical perspective and do things the “right” way first time, whereas I expressed appreciation for that viewpoint but emphasised that in order to meet the deadline we would need to compromise on aspect Y and Z which, yes, did violate the purist “Q-first” perspective but at the time it was the only realistic way to achieve objective O, so I advocated for that. etc. Ultimately we agreed to compromise on aspect Y, but my boss pushed back about Z and so I found a way to accommodate Z while overall still delivering on time. Etc.

      Tl;dr: no, I would describe experience in the company in the same way I would previous job experience unless there was something particularly egregious.

  84. Renee Remains the Same*

    I’m venting. It’s been a rough week and I’m feeling a little desolate and irritated by those who know and love me. So, I’m sharing my burden with you dear, kind strangers. I have never liked my job. Which is made more interesting by the fact that I’ve been doing it for over 15 years. 5 years now at my current company. Given my experience, I should probably be higher up on the food chain. But, to be honest I made some lateral moves and have never really been overly ambitious in terms of title. .. because I never really wanted my boss’s job.

    Which has now landed me in a substantial career, where I can say I’m mostly respected or at the very least liked by those who work with me and while they may not think I’m amazing at my job, they do think I get the job done. (That’s my standard – Renee… she’ll get the job done)

    Anyway, what I really want to do doesn’t really exist in a corporate or even full-time / stable structure. I like to do research. That’s what I’m good at. Want to find some random piece of information? I’m your girl. I even got my library degree because I thought it might lend itself to something I’m more interested in – but every library/librarian I speak with basically tells me that’s not really their job. I applied for a job as a librarian at a local history organization and was told they weren’t looking for researchers. Put “research” into a job search and what comes up is qualitative/quantitative research… neither of which I’m interested in. I don’t want to conduct surveys or market research, I’m not qualified for scientific projects (nor interested). As a middle aged woman, it feels overly optimistic to try and become a historian (though I’m sure I’d like it).

    Anyway, the options just seem to get bleaker or greyer as time goes by. So maybe y’all have some thoughts? Or want to join my pity party? I welcome everyone!

    1. JustaTech*

      How about archivist? Though I don’t know how many of those jobs there are either.

      Have you considered looking a jobs with a law office? Not as a lawyer, but as a researcher. I have some friends who work in patent law and that’s tons of diving into archives and researching all kinds of weird stuff.

      I feel like the job you’re talking about does exist; the trick is figuring out what it is called.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Archivists aren’t supposed to do research either! Says the frustrated archivist this week by the employees who have been archivists since the 90s and thinks they are historians but won’t work on their data entry projects and just keep doing research that isn’t what we’re supposed to be doing (to that extent).

        What they want are historian jobs. OP google Civil War Roster Editor, that seems more along the lines of what you would want.

      2. Magnus Archivist*

        Archivists can spend time doing research for remote patrons (who can’t fly to the archives to do research in person, and we don’t have the time/bandwidth/server space to digitize what they need), but usually we don’t. And if we do, it’s a small part of our job unless you’ve got a specialized title like “Reference Archivist.” More commonly it’s a task that gets passed on to entry-level staff, paraprofessionals, volunteers, and interns (you can argue about the ethics of that, but that’s how it goes in most places I’ve worked).

        You might be interested in being a professional genealogy researcher? There are some accrediting organizations listed here: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Hiring_a_Professional_Researcher

      3. Magnus Archivist*

        Archivists sometimes do research for remote patrons, but really we have so much else to do that it’s a small part of the job! (Unless you’re like GigglyPuffy’s coworkers and have enough political capital to spend that you can make it your job by brute force.) Usually research-by-mail or remote reference requests get given to paraprofessionals, volunteers, or interns, just because the archivists are all wearing a million hats and every other hat is more on fire than the research hat.

        Have you thought about being a professional genealogical researcher? There are a few accrediting organizations listed here: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Hiring_a_Professional_Researcher

    2. IvyGirl*

      Have you thought about higher ed or non-profits? There are prospect research departments in development/fundraising.

    3. Purple Penguin*

      What about an investigative research specialist or a tv/film production researcher? A friend of mine switched careers from being nonprofit organizer to being the person who did the background research for shows like Jeopardy or Who Wants to be a Millionaire. She loves it.

      2. JustaTech*

        I thought of that too; I was listening to an interview with Adam Savage of Mythbusters and he was talking about the substantial team of researchers that worked on that show.

  85. Environmental Compliance*

    Asking for good thoughts this coming week. My first ISO14001 audit is scheduled next week. Half of it is trying to keep people from saying stupid things (i.e. I’ve already had to explain we do not create any waste oil, we create used oil, and used oil is sent off for recycling, say it with me now, no, NOT waste oil, for cripe’s sake).

    1. JustaTech*

      Oh good luck!
      Here’s the example we’ve used in audit prep about how to talk to an auditor.
      Auditor: Do you have the time?
      Person: Yes.

      (IE, don’t *tell* them the time until they specifically ask for it.)

      1. emmelemm*

        That’s also advice that lawyers give to their clients. “If opposing counsel asks if you have the time, say yes. Wait for them to ask you ‘What time is it?'”

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Lol YES!!! Hoping that my repeated requests to not give any information until specifically asked for get through. Answer the question and nothing more, y’all. No volunteering random stories. That’s how we had an issue last time (I wasn’t at the company then) because somebody volunteered incorrect information. *facepalm*

      3. Natalie*

        Did you ever watch Better Off Ted?

        Lawyer: Can you describe your job?

        Veronica: Yes

        (Beat) Lawyer: How would you describe your job?

        Veronica: Cleverly.

    2. irene adler*

      This won’t help in the short-term, but I just interviewed at a company that holds “sims” at regular intervals.
      “sims” = simulated audit conducted by someone not known to the employees being audited. It gives employees opportunity to practice their responses.

      (No, I didn’t get the job. But I picked up a nice tip there!)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yup! We do those on a very regular basis, both internal & external. So far we’ve done pretty good.

        There’s always that one person though that forgets everything as soon as the Realsies Audit is happening.

    3. Annabeth Nass*

      Good luck, you’ll do fine. I’ve been through many ISO 14001 audits – as long as the auditor sees that you have the right procedures in place and have trained your employees, they’ll usually let some of the employee comments slide.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is it your first external audit on any of these standards or just your first audit on this one?

      I don’t know anything about ISO14001 but was heavily involved in quality (9001 etc at the time) and information security (27001 etc) external audits and there was always the possibility that someone could get chosen at random, outside of the people already designated to talk to the auditor… and all the fun things they would be able to say.

      My favourite was “letting slip” to the external auditor about things they had already raised internally and were found to be non-issues!

      I’d like to think that if someone says to an external auditor, e.g. “we create waste oil” that the auditor would note that on their pad and then bring it up in the meeting later (or with an on-site standards person) and then it would be clarified with a review of the actual process of how the used oil gets put into bucket X and sent for recycling. I certainly wouldn’t expect everyone to have an intimate knowledge of e.g. “oil gets recycled according to these standards etc etc” vs “we put the waste oil here in bucket X, I guess it gets thrown away but I don’t know because department Y takes care of that” — and any competent auditor will be able to distinguish that.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        This is my personal first external 14001 audit, but the facility has been 14001 certified for some years.

        Waste oil was for a state agency audit, when I had to leave the plant manager with the inspectors for 20 minutes, and he told them allllllll about waste oil (of which we had none). I then got to spend a couple hours with the inspectors talking them off a ledge of no, no, seriously, it’s used oil, this is the process, no I have no idea why he called it waste oil.

        This audit will be all virtual, so I’m not sure if they’re going to have us pull random staff to interview – they usually do – but I have done a few random ones today and everyone did really well, so that’s promising!

        I have a list of small things that we’re already taking care of that I might drop into discussion as “oh no’s”. It’ll be the same audit team that we had last year, and one of them was Highly Detailed about anything and everything… scope was not a term they were apparently familiar with. I’m hoping that this individual has 1) calmed down a bit and 2) is better kept on task by the lead auditor. This is 14001, not 50001, or 9001, etc., etc.

  86. BusyBee*

    A hiring manager contacted me at the beginning of this year to interview for a role on their team. I went through 3 rounds of interviews through January, when the hiring manager reached out for another interview. I did the interview (same people from rounds 1-3), and the hiring manager said I did a great job. However, I got another offer in the meantime. I reached out and let the hiring manger know, but she said they would need another week to make a decision and couldn’t make any guarantees. I couldn’t put off a decision with the other offer, so ended up dropping out of the process. I thanked her for her time and I think left it in a good place, but was there anything else I should have done? I didn’t feel like I could keep dragging my feet on the other offer, but not sure if I committed a faux pas in any way.

    1. I edit everything*

      It sounds like you did everything exactly right. You let them know you had another offer on the table, and when they continued drawing out their decision, made the move you needed to. I assume you were polite in every communication, and we all know that when employers say “another week,” they really mean three weeks and possibly with this company, two more interviews.

      1. BusyBee*

        I appreciate the confirmation! It wasn’t a situation I had encountered before and I kept feeling like I was doing something wrong, even though the communication between us was polite and open. It’s a bummer to not have been able to complete the process because the job did look really interesting, but I had the same concerns around the timeline that you point out!

    2. Jay*

      I can’t find that you did anything wrong – most hiring managers/companies know that candidates are likely looking at multiple opportunities. That is the risk in dragging out the interview process, top talent may accept another offer. I honestly think you did the right thing – you went to the hiring manager, told them the situation, assuming gave them the opportunity to extend an offer and when their timeline wasn’t going to work, you removed yourself.

      Not knowing all of your timelines for decisions – the only option I could see is telling the company that extended an offer that you needed a week to decide and give time for company A to make a decision, but as they said – no guarantee.

  88. I edit everything*

    I am setting up a new gmail address for my freelance biz. I know you can create multiple mailboxes–does anyone know how to create a separate mailbox for emails sent via my website’s contact form?

  89. Unsure Footing*

    I apologize in advance for the length.

    I work in asalaried specialist position . The company also hires hourly entry-level support staff to deal with a lot of the admin work our projects require. For the last few years the company I work for has been participating in a hire-the-handicapped program and has been hiring people with, mostly, intelluctual disabilities into some of these support roles. Not all the support roles are filled like this, but it’s gotten close to 50%. I want it clear that I support hiring people with disabilities, but there are problems with the way my company has chosen to do this.

    The issue has always been that most of these employees cannot do a good chunck of the work these support positions require. It’s not due to lack of trying, they just cannot learn some some of the taks, no matter how much training and oversight is given. And even some of the work they can do, they don’t very well or do very slowly. Because of this, much of their work has to be picked up by the other support staff and sometimes people in specialist positions when we’re on a time crunch.

    A couple years ago there was an issue when the higher-ups got mad about all the overtime the support people were racking up and how slowly some projects were being finished. Some of the support staff and a few of the specialists went to the bosses and explained that around half the support staff cannot do 100% of their work, even with accomodations, and that work has to be picked up by other people, hence the overtime. And projects are behind because of that, and because the specialists sometimes have to redo some of the work the support staff are doing. They suggested that more support people be hired, even just part-time to pick up the work. This was rejected, the people who stood up were told they were being unsupportive of their disabled collegues and needed to learn to be team players. The whole company had to go through sensitivty training, again, but the issue of ovetime was dropped. Some of them left of their own accord, other were pushed out overtime. After that, the rest of us just kept our heads down and did the best we could.

    Covid, though, has made this worse. Everyone is working from home, and the output from many of our disabled support staff have dropped to zero, or near there. Meaning that everyone has now had to take on a lot more work. The specialists, myself included, have started doing a large amount of our own support work, to help out the rest of the support staff. Add that to our own work, and we’re pulling 12 hour days and working weekends. We borached the idea of hiring more support staff, again, even temporarily, but were told the company can’t afford it, they are still paying everyone, even if no work is done. And more platitutdes about being supportive of our disabled collegues and being team players.

    I want to be supportive, and I hate the idea of laying anyone off, but I am burned out. And I can’t see continuing to pay people who aren’t doing work. Am I wrong to feel this way? My companys seems to think so. I started job hunting, but the field is pretty bare right now, so i just have to hold on. Any advice would be welcome.

    1. RainbeauxStego*

      Pushback as a group? It sounds like they are a brick wall and not understanding you have no issues with accommodations and being a team player but if there are vital parts of the job not being done by those responsible for it, they either need to take those tasks away from the person who can’t do it and give them things they can do or reduce their hours to allow for hiring someone who can do them. That or they need to let you know what they are OK with being dropped or deprioritized.

      1. Unsure Footing*

        What pushback there has been has always been as a group. The attempt a couple years ago involved almost 2 dozen employees, across support role and specialist roles. After they were accused of being abelist, and we were all forced into sensitivity training, a few quit and most of the others were laid off or fired for varying reasons, which is why no on else made an attempt till now.

        Myself and several other specialists I work with often approached our bosses and the head of the support staff with the issue, and while we weren’t accused of being abelist, we were told we have to be team players and basically suck it up till things are back to normal and be grateful we have jobs.

    2. Temperance*

      You aren’t wrong, your company is. Simply put, the people who made the decision to hire folks with intellectual disabilities to do work which they simply aren’t capable of aren’t the ones forced to deal with the consequences of having a team of workers who simply can’t be trained to do tasks expected of their position. It falls on you and the rest of your team.

      Could you organize and approach your manager with the cold, hard facts? You aren’t being ableist, and your company is expecting to cash in on the good PR of hiring people with intellectual disabilities without actually setting up a fair program that works.

      We have a woman with an intellectual disability at my org. We’re paying her full-time to stay home now, which I am thankful for and fully support. She has a full-time role that works independently and which she is qualified for, and she’s a true member of the team. She wouldn’t be able to work as a receptionist or assistant, for example, and I think it would be ridiculous and unfair to both her and the team to miscategorize her like your office has done.

      1. Unsure Footing*

        Our company actually got the idea from a client of ours who was participating in a hire the handicapped program. But our client, like your company, actually put thought into the roles they hired people from that program for.

        On our end, it didn’t start out with a goal of having 50% of the project support staff being handicapped, it just spiraled. That’s why I think we must be working with an organization who helps people with intellectual disabilities get jobs, because I can’t figure out how else we would end up like this.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Although it is extra work for you, you might consider documenting the extra work extra time you spend doing the work that your support staff is not doing, so you have something to show and tell your bosses. (Yeah, it is an extra unwanted hassle.) Then, consider telling your bosses, “I can do X, Y or Z, but I don’t have time to do all of them. What is the most important priority?” and throw it back to your bosses and let them decide what is going to get done. If the answer is, “Everything!” then things a few balls will have to get dropped and probably broken before anything changes.

      1. Unsure Footing*

        Balls have always been dropped because of this, they just ignore the problem and let us pick-up the pieces as best we can. With what we do, it’s not like WWIII is going to start if a deadline gets missed, a client may be unhappy, but we’ve lost very few clients because of this, they all seem very understanding.

        1. Chestnut Mare*

          I think this is your answer, then. Stop doing the extra work and let the chips fall where they may. Your company will figure it out, or not. It seems like there’s a lot more potential fallout for speaking up, so just quietly scale back and allow things to go undone.

    4. WellRed*

      This is not how hiring disabled employees is supposed to work. They still need to be able to do the work, with whatever reasonable accommodations. If it was only one or two employees, then this would be easier because yeah, it’s easier to pick up a teeny bit of slack and be supportive of the program. 50%? Just, no.
      I’m also wondering, is your company getting some kind of tax incentives for this hiring? Are these employees cheaper to hire (though that’s offset by the OT). Is this through some sort of organization and why hasn’t the organization noticed that their clients are being hired into roles they can’t fulfill? How do the employees feel working in a role they can’t manage?

      1. Unsure Footing*

        There are tax incentives, but no one is paid less, which is why they were initially upset about the ovetime. But the overtime still turns out to be cheaper than hiring more people and having to provide benefits. I don’t know if there’s an organization we’re partnering with, I almost imagine there has to be, but I don’t really know.

    5. Admin still*

      I don’t think you are wrong at all. They are hiring people who can’t do the job and expecting that job to get done anyway. That’s a disservice to the support staff and to you. Paying them even though they aren’t working is nice but that’s a charity. They should separate their charitable work from their business but that’s their call and it sounds like they aren’t interested. Keep up the job hunting and document what all you are having to do to stay afloat.

    6. Natalie*

      I think other commenters have covered whether or not you are wrong to feel how you do (short answer: no). For the burnout, I recommend you stop working 12 hour days. Even better would be if you can talk your colleagues into doing the same, but honestly just stop yourself regardless. Drop the rope. The company will not change anything about how it’s operating as long as things are “working”, and right now they’re working because a bunch of you are taking responsibility for making it work. So stop doing that, and push the responsibility for solving this back to management.

  90. CSR by Day*

    Does anyone have any ideas about how to fill out one of those annual self-assessments? I have a demanding customer service job that does require a lot of specific technical knowledge and I’m doing O.K. in it. Not great, but not horrible either. It’s time for my 2nd annual self-assessment. The calls from our clients are just incredibly random, although it does seem like since COVID we’ve been getting more complicated issues and more calls with multiple issues and clients claiming not to have received mailed notices that were sent to them, which allows issues to fester and more penalties and interest to accrue. Productivity (as measured by my employer) has dropped because the calls take longer to document and resolve.

    We don’t really have goals, other than to solve the issues our callers, and there really aren’t any concrete resolutions that we can point to. Every day there will be a new problem, so every day I show up, answer the phone and do my professional best to meet the often conflicting goals of my employer and our clients. I’ve become more confident in solving my clients’ issues, more knowledgeable and more able to do research on-the-fly in order to solve the problems, but I really don’t know how to translate that into statements for a written self-evaluation. Any suggestions?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      AAM posted an answer to this letter writer’s question “How do I show soft skills on my resume?” which may at least part-way answer your questions. It’s #2 at the link:
      http://www.askamanager.org/2018/04/do-good-jobs-ever-leave-room-for-outside-artistic-pursuits-coffee-wars-and-more.html
      The other reason you might want to go take a look at this post is because it contains another link to another AAM letter “How can my resume demonstrate initiative, problem-solving, work ethic, and other qualities?” which lists some examples to illustrate those things.
      Hopefully these two posts will give you at least a running start.

  91. ratatatcat*

    (UK Based) My workplace only has desktops, so when we went into lockdown last March, we all switched to using personal laptops (perhaps foolishly, thinking it was a short-term fix to a short-term problem). Now we are still working from home, and still using our personal laptops. My laptop has a few issues and occasionally (once every few weeks) crashes, and fairly frequently freezes for short periods or is slow to load/start up. Colleagues on my team (including my manager) are aware that I have intermitten computer issues.
    We are able to individually request that the company buy us a work laptop, but I’m reluctant to approach upper management; there was a lot of internal politics last fall around who should go back to the office (I was adamantly opposed but higher ups wanted everyone back to “make things normal again”), so I am concerned requesting a laptop would be seen as ‘the problem with working from home’ and make it more likely to for me to be forced back in.
    Here’s my dilemma: over Christmas I got a new laptop. I have chosen to use the new one for personal use, and keep my old one for work. If there is an urgent problem or important deadline, and my ‘work’ computer is freezing up, I will use my personal one. My boyfriend says this is bad practice and that I should be always using my new laptop for work, since I have it. My argument was that if my company wants us to work seamlessly from home & be always available, they should have provided us all with the resources to do so (money is not an issue for them), and that my personal belongings are not relevant to how they should manage the situation.
    Am I in the wrong here?

    1. WellRed*

      You’re boyfriend is wrong. It’s not up to you to provide the company with equipment. What if you didn’t even have a laptop? The company would have to figure it out. Request a laptop. Or can you go into the office and grab your desktop?

      1. ratatatcat*

        The desktop is a good idea! I hadn’t considered that before but they definitely have my usual desktop available. Thank you :)

      1. ratatatcat*

        Unfortunately any expenses have to go through upper management first so there’d be no way to do that – small firm with lots of (too much?) managerial oversight!

    3. LGC*

      US based here, and…you’re right.

      Plus, to be quite honest, as The Problem Child at my own job who just requested a work laptop, the hardest part for me was getting up the courage to do so. (In my case, I WFH occasionally, and my home laptop kind of messed up with syncing my work files.) It sounds like they haven’t told you specifically that you can’t ask, so…unless you were that forceful about continuing to WFH where you upset people, I see no reason why you can’t ask now!

      My strategy was to ask if they had any available (which they happened to, and the machine is sitting on my desk right now under my personal laptop). I’d start with that – it seems like your concern isn’t that you want a new machine, it’s that you want a separate machine for work and for personal use.

      1. ratatatcat*

        That’s a good strategy – I think WellRed’s suggestion of a desktop overlaps with this, as I definitely know my old desktop is just sitting around gathering dust!

  92. Velawciraptor*

    I need some advice on how to better coach a possibly neurodivergent employee.

    I have an attorney working in one of my offices who isn’t catching on to some of the necessities of the job after more than two years in it. They’ve never disclosed any condition to me, but I’ve had people (including judges) speculate to me about the employee being autistic, based on some of their tics and difficulties, including:

    -difficulty reading social cues
    -a tendency to stim when stressed (particularly rocking back and forth, which becomes faster and more violent the more stressed they get)
    -difficulty dealing with deviations from routine and thinking on their feet
    -communication difficulties

    It’s reached a point where they can’t practice in one courtroom they were assigned to and another judge is making noises about doing the same if they don’t progress. I’m on the cusp of having to put them on a PIP, which I hate because they’re a smart and caring attorney. But I have a duty to his clients to be sure they’re getting the representation they need.
    They take some coaching well–I’ve provided them with checklists and preparation techniques to give them more structure in how they prepare for court, for example, and have seen instant improvement there. But I’m clearly not giving them the help they need to communicate the way they need to or to go with the flow and deal with fluid situations in the courtroom without panicking. I’ve asked them if there’s something I could be doing better or accommodations I could be making, but they didn’t. I don’t want to put them on a PIP without having a plan in place for helping to guide them through the areas they need to improve, but since the techniques I typically use for training new attorneys on these issues don’t seem to be working, I’m at a loss for what to do.

    I can’t hold someone responsible for improving aspects of their performance if I can’t teach them in a way that makes sense to them and gives them a genuine chance to succeed. But I can’t keep sending a lawyer into the lion’s den who freezes and panics when there’s a variance from their mental script–it spooks clients, infuriates judges, and sometimes results in less effective representation than I think clients deserve.

    Help!

    1. WellRed*

      Honestly, it sounds like this person would be better off in an attorney role that doesn’t require the courtoom.
      One thing I’m not seeing n your letter: how clear have you been with them that their job is at risk (if it is. If it isn’t, it should be). Leave out the whole possibly neurodivergent question and really ask yourself if you’ve been clear and if you think there’s a chance they can truly succeed in this role.

    2. CatCat*

      You can be a smart and caring attorney, but ill-suited for litigation. It’s been two years. PIP makes sense to me and if you don’t know what training or tools they need on the PIP, ask, “What training or tools do you think would help you succeed in the courtroom?”

      I’d also ask if he’s even happy and wants to keep working in the courtroom at this job. If not, work on a transition plan out, maybe severance pay, insurance, a reference that speaks to his strong points, and letting him say he’s still employed while job searching. Soooo many people leave litigation (myself included) that it’s totally normal to do so because litigation isn’t your jam anymore.

    3. Temperance*

      So, not knowing what kind of office you’re running, I think that this person clearly can’t be a courtroom lawyer. Autistic or not. If you’re a public defender or provide similar critical assistance, you’re risking your clients every single time this person represents them. If your clients are paying, they aren’t getting what they need, either, and you might be committing malpractice.

      This person needs to be on a PIP and/or terminated.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      sometimes results in less effective representation than I think clients deserve

      If they are unable to zealously represent their clients and/or they are having competency problems in this area of law, then they are getting very close to violating their rules of professional responsibility. No matter how “smart and caring” they are, you are allowed to put them on a PIP, and then, if they still do not get address this problem effectively, move them out of this role. It’s not just about this lawyer; it’s about their (and your) duties to clients and the court.

    5. tab*

      Why can’t you work with the attorney to identify possible objections, changes and variances that can come up in court? I always go through my design reviews and imagine what questions my clients might ask. It helps me put together a better presentation and be better prepared.

    6. PollyQ*

      But I’m clearly not giving them the help they need to communicate the way they need to or to go with the flow and deal with fluid situations in the courtroom without panicking.

      I can’t hold someone responsible for improving aspects of their performance if I can’t teach them in a way that makes sense to them and gives them a genuine chance to succeed.

      I don’t believe these things are true. It’s not a boss’s job to fix an employee’s problems or to teach them every aspect of the job. Lay out the standards, provide standard training, yes, but ultimately people are responsible for their own work.

      It does sound like being a trial attorney may be a very poor choice for this person in a way that’s not easily fixable. (And maybe it’s not ASD, but some other anxiety issue, or just their basic temperament.) Regardless, I do think you need to be worrying more about the clients who are stuck with a lawyer who’s not able to give them good representation and less about how you can improve this employee’s soft skills.

      2. pancakes*

        No, there are rules of professional conduct a supervising attorney has to abide by, along the lines of what Glomarization Esq. said. The wording might vary by state to some extent, but under MRPC 5.1,

        (c) A lawyer shall be responsible for another lawyer’s violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct if:

        (1) the lawyer orders or, with knowledge of the specific conduct, ratifies the conduct involved; or

        (2) the lawyer is a partner or has comparable managerial authority in the law firm in which the other lawyer practices, or has direct supervisory authority over the other lawyer, and knows of the conduct at a time when its consequences can be avoided or mitigated but fails to take reasonable remedial action.

        1. LGC*

          I think what she means is that it shouldn’t be OP’s goal to make sure this lawyer is successful as a trial lawyer, or at least that’s how I read it.

          1. pancakes*

            Maybe, but I was responding to “ultimately people are responsible for their own work.” That’s not consistent with the rules of professional responsibility for lawyers.

  93. Update on problem nanny breaking covid safety*

    Hi all, for those who might have seen my post a few months back, regarding a nanny who was traveling to multiple other states for vacation during a shelter-in-place mandate in the biggest hotspots of covid in the country… There were a lot of recommendations and we finally fired her. My daughter missed her terribly and wanted me to send her gifts. It was very sad. And then it turned out it was next to impossible to find a good replacement. I suppose because people expect schools to reopen quite soon, few people wanted a contract for just a couple of months, and those who might have already had a job. It seems that qualified nannies were in very short supply, so the only people who applied either had no references, bad references, simply ghosted (the majority), or there was some problem. After some unsuccessful tries and temporary measures (hard because of the need for covid testing before even a simple trial run) I finally decided to apply my “management” skills to my child, who just turned 5. I gave her very clear instructions and expectations, how to join meetings etc, set everything up on the computer with notifications, and let her manage her own time (we only have an hour or so of zoom total for her but they are spread out in 15 min chunks so it’s quite complicated). After we fired the first nanny she loved, she was acting up all the time, so I had little hope that this would work, but I was desperate. Then I just left her (with the nanny-cam on). I suspected she would constantly bother us or forget to log onto her classes – to my surprise, she rose to the occasion, and so far, has been managing her work and meetings amazingly well. Of course there are slip-ups and bad days, but, well, it turned out managing my child was easier and much more gratifying than managing nannies. I don’t think this would have been possible even a few months ago, but it seems the whole experience helped our child mature. She told me that “I prefer to do it myself because I don’t like getting bossed around” – ie, I just had to stop micromanaging. Maybe something I can bring into my work, where I manage a small team – I have also been working on my delegation skills there, and I have to admit, there was another case where I let somebody whose performance I was so-so about take far more ownership, and they really rose to the occasion. This was a very insightful experience for me so I thought I’d share.

    1. LNLN*

      Thanks for the update. Kudos to you for trying something new with your daughter. And for listening to her!

    2. PJM*

      Are you saying you left a 5 year old at home alone with nanny cams on? I have a five year old and think that is way way way too young not to have adult supervision. A five year old simply isn’t mature enough to deal with emergencies that may arise. What if your child became a kidnapping victim if someone figured out she was home alone? I do not think you should give up looking for help. Also, if someone finds out, you could get into serious trouble with the authorities. Frankly, it’s heartbreaking thinking of such a small child being left home alone without anybody for so many hours. Please, please, rethink what you are doing.

      1. Black Horse Dancing*

        I don’t think she was left alone at home. I think she was left in her room while parents were nearby in other rooms.

      2. Hex Code*

        Um, if you read the post it says that they were worried at first that the child might bother them while they are working —- so clearly they are working from home and she’s just in a different room! I can’t imagine that a parent who is sufficiently concerned about their nanny’s covid safety precautions to fire her would then somehow be reckless enough to just leave their kid home alone? Please rethink your own words and unnecessary scolding.

        1. PJM*

          There is absolutely no where in her post that she implies she is in the next room!!! Also, in terms of bothering them, many cameras allow you to talk back and forth or the child could call her mother on the phone and thus ‘bother her.’ My 5 year old knows how to call me. If there is any unnecessary scolding going on, you are the one clearly doing it!

          1. Luffi*

            Oops you’re right! There is definitely a case of a parent leaving a child home alone all day while all adults leave the house and wander around outside, even though they work from home and are clearly careful of their child’s welfare. Thanks for flagging this for all of us.

      3. Teaching from home*

        I think there is a misunderstanding. The Nanny updater is not leaving her child home alone. She is working and the child is in another room with a camera on her. Many parents are juggling WFH and School from home during these times.

    3. Analyst Editor*

      That’s awesome! Kids can be pretty capable, and will surprise you. My mom had a similar epiphany applying her approach to training dogs (!) to teaching her middle-school students, haha (“positive, assertive energy”, in the words of Cesar Milan).

  94. Depressed and underemployed*

    I was supposed to have an interview in 2.5 hours but the interviewer just emailed me to cancel because of “overwhelming interest” in the role. Instead they want me to prepare a slide deck of all the interview questions and answers, then record myself presenting on this, and email that in by Wednesday. I don’t see how this saves them any time other than filtering out everyone who won’t do this extra work. They said we can’t take more than 10 minutes to present but it’s going to take more time to put everything together and record. Is this some sort of weird test to see who will do this? Or how flexible I am with change? I’m currently working a shitty part time job where I risk getting covid all the time because my unemployment ran out and it’s all I could find and this is the first interview for a full time job I’ve been offered since the week of Christmas despite applying to like a hundred places and I feel like I’m gonna cry because even if I get offered the job now this just gives me such bad vibes and takes away all the excitement I had.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think it’s a test, but I do think it’s a bad sign: they have other ways they could winnow the pool, they aren’t being very respectful of your time (2.5 hours notice to cancel?), plus all the extra work. You also won’t be able to ask them anything at this stage. I would bet this is not a well run organization. In fact, can you see if there’s anything about them on GlassDoor before you commit to this project?

    2. Jay*

      I don’t think it’s a weird test or to see how flexible you are, it’s just weird and a lot of red flags. If they were interested in speaking with you, you clearly had qualifications that they were looking for. If your interview was already on the schedule, out of respect, they should have kept it. You will now need to spend an hour probably putting together this presentation for them to save what, 5 minutes max in the process? I have to think a phone interview wouldn’t take that much time even if they streamlined it.

      I’m thinking you dodge a bullet on it, don’t let this get you down because it really doesn’t sound like it’d be great. Keep applying, stay positive and something will come along.

    3. LibbyG*

      How deflating for them to cancel with such short notice. Maybe they wanted to put all candidates on equal footing?

      If you choose to go forward, you might try to reframe this in your mind as practice. Watching or listening to yourself answering their questions might really help you nail the interview for the future job you really want.

  95. Toasty Bacon and Eggs*

    Is there a set amount a time that your manager/trainer should oversee the work you are doing before allowing you to work on your own? The place I am working at now seems to have a 2 days worth of training, then you are on your own. If you make mistakes, you will be called out right away in the weekly zoom meeting. I would imagine you give new employees more time to grow and understand the role. Some of my work that I do is done on a monthly basis, so yeah I understand it now, but will I next month?

    I’ve asked some of my teammates and they experienced the same thing when they started. Its a very “sink or swim” culture there that has a somewhat high turnover rate. I would imagine that companies would want to take time to get people intergrated better into the company.

  96. Sienna*

    Today, during a team meeting, we were told to coordinate with each other before making doctor’s appointments. The client didn’t like that 3 of us were out on the same day (different times, mind you, so there was coverage the entire day ) and demanded that we a) coordinate with each other or b) one or both of us CANCEL our appointments to “be available” for work.

    When I talked to the team lead about the absurdity of that, especially given that I and another team member have autoimmune diseases and are high-risk for covid and (in the U.S.) some specialists don’t have appointments available for MONTHS – the team lead said I know but we have to keep the client happy. And when you do get an appointment, you have to build in a buffer because of all the checks in place due to the pandemic. The team I’m on is understaffed and overworked as it is, and now you want us to skip/cancel doctor’s appointments on top of all of that too??!

    I messaged HR about a transfer as soon as the meeting ended.

    Just wanted to rant about this somewhere on the internet.

  97. Maybe Time to Blow This Popsicle Stand*

    What was the proverbial straw for you? What I mean is, how did you know it was time to update your resume and start considering other opportunities?

    2. Tuesday*

      When the demand for popsicles took a dive at the start of fall. Sorry, kidding. I’ve been in the same job forever, which was probably not a great idea, but I have a mortal fear of job interviews, so I’m definitely not the one to help with this question.

    4. Campfire Raccoon*

      When a Kid Rock song made me cry hysterically and I realized that pulling over to weep uncontrollably on the way to work was not normal.

    5. Filosofickle*

      My first job, it was when my “shit don’t make me go back to work” mood moved from Sunday back to Saturday and then even Friday. Coinciding with finding myself automatically pouring a drink when I got home.

      In hindsight, and with 20+ years experience in the rear view mirror, the moment I’m asking the question is the moment it’s time to start looking. If I wait til I’m really, truly, 100% sure…it’s too late. I’m already checked out and it will be 6 months before I’ll find my next thing. And that whole time will be a slog and it’s hard to have a positive interviewing persona when I feel that frustrated.

      2. The Spinning Arrow*

        How did you download this answer directly from my brain? (In all seriousness though I’m sorry you’ve been there before too. It’s rough.)

    6. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’m done with leadership’s double standards.

      They will nag department leaders to share their “vision” for the year, then rip it to pieces and set everyone to work on whatever request today’s large client has made on a whim. Then accuse teams of underperforming, because they didn’t deliver work they weren’t even allowed to start.

      You’re encouraged to say no to requests there’s not enough resource for, only to be told, the day after, that you have no empathy for customer-facing staff (plus, someone has already promised the client a due date, how nice!).

      The people that built the original tech are still around, yet somehow, pointing out that newer employees need their help to fix legacy issues makes you a complainer that creates work for others.

      I’ve lost confidence that I’ll find a new employer out there doesn’t work that way, but at the same time, really want to get out.

    7. Anonollama*

      2 big things:
      When I realized that I was using the F word as punctuation in my head (and I’m not someone who uses profanity on the regular).
      When I realized my employers were really going to keep forcing my high risk colleague with high risk family members to keep working in the office (next to the mask refuser’s office!) and lie about the possibility of work from home. Basically when I realized they don’t give a crap about worker safety no matter how much they talk about us being a team.

    8. Distractinator*

      How did I know I needed a new job? During my commute I was imagining what would happen if I got in traffic accident as a happy daydream alternative to actually arriving at the office. As the imagined accidents started getting more serious I began to realize that if I would hypothetically prefer a trip to the ER over continuing on to work, I should really find a different job.

    9. Tamer of Dragonflies*

      When I was told on a Friday afternoon that I “must” turn, undercut, and balance 3 D12 generators armatures (minimum of 24 hours of labor) by 5:00 Monday morning because they “had” to be built and shipped by Wednesday…and then they sat there untill Friday before assembly began. And the rotted cherry on top of the B.S. sundae? They “changed some policies” recently, so some of the O.T. I worked was converted to straight time. I knew then that it was time to get away from there. I’m 9 years away from that shop, I work in sewerage, and I’m SO MUCH HAPPIER…that’s how bad it was.

    10. mreasy*

      For one job where I was working long days plus monthly travel plus nighttime commitments – when they docked me 1/4 day for leaving at 4 pm for a doctor’s appointment.

    11. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I had been working at a company for over eleven years, and I always got an annual raise until I didn’t, which is when I was told that all raises for all employees (except for those employees related to the owner) would be determined by a committee, but the committee was never able to meet, because someone was always out sick, on vacation, or on a business trip. We were never told who was on the committee, so we were never able to claim that all of them were in the office every single day during a given week.

      After six weeks of waiting for the committee to meet, I gave up and started to look for another job. I found another job and gave two weeks notice. This was at the end of July. I said that I was tired of waiting for the committee to meet. The office manager guaranteed that the committee would meet before the end of the year. I said that I didn’t care, and I left. On December 30, I found out from friends still working there that the committee still hadn’t met. The following March, they told me that the committee still hadn’t met.

  98. BananaPants*

    My job is having an (indoor) hotwing eating competition this month. In the middle of a pandemic!

    This is so ridiculous I dont even know how to deal.

    1. GoryDetails*

      Ouch! I mean, I hate the very concept of eating competitions – I think they show major disrespect for the food, they’re wasteful, and I find them revolting to watch – but holding one indoors in COVID time is worse. I hope someone reconsiders. [Though if a number of employees are big fans of that kind of thing, I suppose it’d make them happy – and if everyone’s seated at a suitable distance it might not be that risky. But eep! I’d never want to watch or take part in such a thing.]

      1. pancakes*

        Whether it makes people happy or not, it’s a ridiculous thing to do during a pandemic, and dangerous due to the choking hazard even in non-pandemic times. Search for eating contest deaths and you’ll find there have been a number of them. Wings seems like a particularly bad idea because of the bones, but people have choked to death on donuts, pies, and all sorts of other stuff. To do this during a pandemic is bizarre.

    2. JustaTech*

      Oh lord no.
      We had a hot sauce eating contest at work years ago that ended with the crowd demanding that the contestants stop before they got hurt (and passing the hat to come up with a second prize) and then one contestant threw up in the bushes on the way to his bus and the other was up all night and didn’t come in to work the next day.

      If you have an eating contest someone will vomit. Talk about spreading aerosols!

      I’m sorry.

  99. t-vex*

    We just had a very nice moment here at the office that made me gald we’re here. We’re in an essential industry and those of us in admin work in the building but stay in our offices with the doors closed most of the day. Just now I heard a commotion outside and everyone all up and down the hall stuck out their heads to find that one of our team members had just passed a certification exam. We all got to celebrate his success together, it was so sweet!

  100. honeygrim*

    So I’m having an issue with an under-performing employee, complicated by various COVID-related factors.

    I recently began managing several people due to a rather sudden organizational shift. Our work is a combination of customer service and data management duties. One of my new direct reports, “Sid,” has historically mostly worked in the customer service area, which includes interacting with people at our physical location. Due to COVID, many people in our organization have been working 100% remotely, though a lot of us (including myself) have to be on-site at least part of the time due to the nature of our work. Sid has been working completely remotely because of a high-risk family member; this was approved by their prior supervisor and I had no reason to question this.

    However, now I’m faced with several issues:

    1. I was under the impression that the reason Sid wanted to work from home was because they were living with their high-risk family member. This is not the case.
    2. Their on-site work has had to be done by other members of my staff, and we’ve run into difficulties because of lack of documentation on Sid’s part; because they aren’t on-site, I am struggling to communicate what we need.
    3. Sid’s skill set and job description precludes me assigning them most of the data management work (which can be done remotely, unlike our customer service work). This means that I’m struggling to find enough work for them to do. While I’m not the kind of manager who requires every minute of a work day to be filled with work, it is unfair that Sid has markedly less work than their colleagues, simply because the other staff can and do work on-site at least part of the week.
    4. Related to #2 and #3 above, Sid’s job title and pay are above both the work that they typically do and the titles/pay of staff who do more difficult work (some bad decisions were made during the hiring process). Prior to COVID their supervisor was working with me to find more appropriate work for Sid (above the level of their current assignments, but at the correct level for their job title and pay). Sid hasn’t been managed well, with the result being their poor performance has been mostly ignored.

    I had been prepared to meet with Sid and talk about whether they could start coming in and least one day a week, but then they informed me that they are having health issues related to a diagnosis they just received. And while I’m not a medical expert, a cursory Google search leads me to believe this diagnosis may provide a justifiable for Sid to be labelled high-risk.

    So, my problem boils down to having an under-performing direct report, who isn’t really capable of doing most of the work that could be done remotely, who is currently not coming on-site due to a miscommunication about their family member, and who may not be able to come on-site in the future because of their own health issues. I have no idea what kind of work to assign them, and the other staff are having to cover the work they used to do on-site. This is all exacerbated by our organizations excruciatingly long process for firing someone, plus a current freeze on filling new job openings. So I have a nearly useless worker getting paid to sit at home, who I couldn’t get rid of if I wanted to, and if I did get rid of them I might not be able to replace them for a year or more.

    Any help? I have planned to talk with my own supervisor and possibly HR, but I’m not sure if I can legally or ethically reveal the diagnosis Sid told me about; without that information, I think I will be told to tell Sid that their job is in jeopardy if they don’t come to the office at least once a week.

    1. pancakes*

      It’s not clear what the struggle is in terms of communicating when Sid isn’t on site. Do they not respond to emails? Or are you spending too much time on the phone? Or…? Potential solutions to this depend on the nature of the problem.

      If Sid needs to provide care to a high-risk family member I don’t think it necessarily matters whether they live together or not. Not living together doesn’t invariably mean they don’t need to spend time together, or that someone else could step in.

    2. pancakes*

      I want to add, you didn’t reveal Sid’s diagnosis here, and I’m not clear on why you feel you’d have to reveal it to your supervisor to discuss. Would it not be enough to say, “my understanding is Sid is at elevated risk due to a medical condition”?

    3. TaxLady*

      I would do what you need to do business-wise, and let Sid advocate for himself if he is concerned about his diagnosis. Ask him to start coming in part time, make sure your covid mitigation is top notch. If he feels unsafe doing so, he can then advocate with you or HR. Don’t make the decision for him. And if he does insist he has to work from home, ask yourself if you would be better off if he were totally gone. If you can’t replace him and it’s hard to fire him, isn’t having him doing something better than nothing? If he isn’t totally incompetent or toxic so that he doesn’t make more work than he does, then he would still be a net positive during this time. Later in the year when things are stabilizing then you can start trying to do whatever documentation you would need to fire him in the future.

  101. Brain the Brian*

    Hi, commentariat! Does anyone have any good tips for taking useful notes for yourself during meetings and calls? For most of my life, I had a near-perfect memory and didn’t really need notes because I could just remember what we discussed in each call or meeting, even years later — but about a year ago, I was put on medication that has really done a number on my memory. I can recall vague outlines, but specific action items and important points are more often than not lost in a mental morass now.

    It’s easy enough to take notes when I’m one of many participants in a call and most of us are just listening to someone else present, but my position regularly requires me to facilitate meetings with key technical and project staff that delve quite deeply into detailed solutions to problems — and those meetings almost never have someone we could easily designate as the group “note-taker.” I’d love to handle all of this with written communications, but I work at an organization where a large majority of our staff are not native English speakers, and the best way (sometimes the only way) to confirm their understanding is with real-time communication. Ensuring that everyone understands complex client requirements and regulations from multiple governments on hundreds of projects is just part of my job, and will remain so for decades — not a negotiable point. My manager is our company’s longest-serving senior executive, and even though I’m not her admin assistant by any means, she relies on me to get things done without involving her or other people at our headquarters (where pay rates are higher by several times than our overseas field offices, meaning we try not to use headquarters staff if it’s not absolutely essential to do so). All of this to say: I’m often the only one on these calls who *can* take notes, and I’m also the one leading the calls; talking and taking detailed notes all at once is, well, not easy.

    I’m tolerating my medication fine otherwise and it truly is necessary, so I don’t really want to change the regimen — I just wish I could remember what I discussed with people and have confidence that I’m not forgetting anything important! Any tips you have on ways for me to take notes that help jog my memory as I’m facilitating a meeting and reviewing important details in real time would be helpful, because right now even meetings and calls that should be easy — those with long-time, friendly, collaborative colleagues — terrify me.

    1. Jay*

      Can you record the calls and then afterwards, replay and write down notes? That would be my ideal situation.

      For calls that you are facilitating – I will typically print out an agenda with large spaces for notes –
      1. Discuss how the implementation of this process went
      a. my thoughts 1
      b. my thoughts 2
      Notes:

      That way the major points are listed out and I’m just filling in main points where needed.

      Is there an option to bring someone to the call with the job of taking notes? Admin or lower level employee? As long as it wasn’t confidential, if my boss asked me to sit in on their meetings just to take notes, I’d jump at the opportunity to be a fly on the wall, hear how people present themselves and in a way shadow her.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        This is what I did for the month or so between starting this medication and the pandemic shutting down our office, when I noticed quite quickly that my memory doesn’t function as well on medication as it does off it, but working from home means that printing is not a viable option until we’re back onsite. The most valuable insights from these meetings are usually things that our field-based staff say out of the blue — reasons why a typically easy-to-navigate client requirement will be impossible in their location, for instance — that I need to remember but have no place to put in a pre-formatted notes document. These were very easy for me to remember in the past (in fact, I can remember the exact wording of some, as well as the date and location of the meeting in which a colleagues said them, from five or ten years ago even now!) but with new information, I now just… can’t.

        I suppose now I could create a notes document in Word and type notes rather than write them, but this creates the cascading problem (at least in in my [medicated] mind) of where on our department drive to save said file without cluttering an already-bursting file system. A few times when I’ve tried, my manager — the only other person who can access our drive; we’re a two-person department — has asked “What’s this?” or deleted it, thinking it was irrelevant. Gah.

        1. Keener*

          For this sort of thing I love using OneNote. You can create notebooks and sections just like you’d have with a physical notebook and you can start typing anywhere on the page like with a physical paper. You can change the save settings, but typically your OneNote files are saved on your local drive or personal OneDrive.

          Since not having a record of these meetings in a central location doesn’t seem to be a problem/concern for your organization I’d not worry about saving them on the server and instead just organizing them within your personal OneNote.

    2. Lyudie*

      Can you record the meetings to listen to and take notes from later? Your company might have policies regarding this (everyone has to consent at the beginning of the meeting etc.) so you’ll want to check on that. I know that adds extra time to your workload but it doesn’t sound like you have many other options. I personally take notes in OneNote during meetings, but I’m usually not leading the meetings.

    3. Brain the Brian*

      Oh, Jay and Lyudie, how I wish. People at my org are weirdly sensitive about being recorded; they think it’s because we at headquarters don’t trust field folks to remember all the details or that we think they will “conveniently but intentionally” forget them. I suspect that’s often true, but it’s the opposite for me — I’m the one who can’t remember!

      (In addition, several of our overseas offices are located in countries with frighteningly large surveillance and security apparatuses, which impact how willing staff in those countries are to be recorded in any scenario.)

    4. PollyQ*

      If you’re leading the discussion, I think it’s fine for you to take quick breaks (20 sec) during the meeting and jot down some notes. You can even say, “Hang on a sec, I want to take a note on this.” People should get used to you doing that pretty quickly.

    5. ferrina*

      Agendas can really help! If you have a clear outline of what is to be discussed, you can focus on the conversation, then right down a couple sentences under each agenda item (essentially using the agenda as your notes outline).
      You can also lean on post-call communication- ask people to email you highly technical things to “make sure you have the info recorded correctly”. This is not unusual- I have ADHD and my team is very used to me saying “Can you email me those numbers after the meeting? Thanks!” Then you just make a note “Jose to send specs on widgets”.
      If you don’t usually have agendas for the meetings you facilitate, start! Just “Hey, I’m testing a new way of facilitating this meeting. This will help me in my note-taking in these meetings”

    6. Reba*

      Well, it sounds like is *is* essential to involve another staff member. Like, having a written record of important technical meetings is a really good idea, regardless of anyone’s vise-like or not memories! I don’t think it’s outrageous or shows any weakness on your part to say “Because I’m so closely involved in the detailed discussions in these meetings, I’m finding that it’s hard to make the kind of meeting notes that would be really useful for the team. It makes sense to have someone else on hand who can make sure we have a full and accurate record for everyone to be able to refer to later on.”

      (I don’t think you actually need to involve a discussion of your illness/treatment at all — this is a reasonable thing to request as something that will make your work go better. But, if you think it would help you to have it presented as some kind of accommodation and you think your boss would be open and understanding to that, maybe? I’d be cautious about that I think.)

      In my team we rely heavily on meeting notes! That said, to echo PollyQ, in one of my regular meetings the facilitator/meeting host is also the note taker, and she just pauses when it’s needed, and it’s ok.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        Lol, my boss is well aware of my diagnosis and treatment. (It’s epilepsy. I had a breakthrough seizure at my desk and got whisked away in an ambulance. It was hard to miss. :D) But your tips, Reba, as well as those from PollyQ and ferrina, are great ways to think about and phrase requests when working with staff who might not be aware and with whom I might not want to share the information.

    7. Distractinator*

      Similar to Jay’s idea of prepping your agenda notes ahead of time, write down a couple of things that you expect to have conclusions about at the end, and make a space on the page for action items. As the actions come up in the meeting, just write one word/phase and the name (safety doc – Sansa). Then finish the meeting with a recap, and feel no guilt about taking meeting time to get sensible notes, if anybody objects they can take notes realtime next time. Just leave a few minutes at the end, it’ll probably be easier to summarize/remember before there’s a change of scene, and you can leverage the recap to write things down in more detail. “Okay we talked about A and B, and decided XYZ, hang on, I’m making notes… okay… and I’ve got the AI list, Sansa, you’re handling safety, right? (and you fill in your notes as you nudge her to supply details) okay so the docs in question are forms A1 and B2, and Sansa will email those by Thursday, got it. Next item was Arya’s…”

    8. Jane*

      I don’t know if this exactly answers the question, but in the case you aren’t able to take notes in real-time, here’s what I used to do as an ethnographer when I couldn’t take notes in real-time out in the field: right after an activity/interview, I would sit down for 5-10 min. and furiously write everything I could remember, free-style. Then a little later when I had more time, I would review those notes and organize them. I found this helped me to get the best notes I could in that situation and cement the important details in my memory. I don’t know if after the meeting would already be too late for you, or if you’re in so many meetings, you can’t schedule in the 5-10 min. between them, but just wanted to throw it out there in case it was helpful. This can also be combined with the other methods mentioned to flesh out keyword notes taken in the agenda, etc.

      Also: something everyone at my current job does is send out meeting notes to all participants afterwards via email and ask them to review/correct/confirm action items.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        Thanks for the suggestion, Jane! I suspect that right after a meeting would probably be fine in terms of my ability to recall information, but timezone differences (all of our field offices are five to eight hours ahead of me) and differences in workweeks (most of our field offices are located in countries where the workweek is Sunday – Thursday, and I work in a country where ours is Monday – Friday) usually mean that if I have more than one meeting in a day, the meetings are very tightly scheduled, one after the other. I’ll try to fit in a few minutes where I can and see if this helps.

  102. Scott*

    I am an accountant in the agriculture industry. My current employer deals mostly with livestock, and I’ve been here at this location for almost two years. I recently had my annual review and overall received high praise for my work, but was given the feedback that some of the managers and employees didn’t feel as connected to me as they have with some of my predecessors. As much as I’d like to blame this on the fact that I’m the only one in my office who can and is working from home since last March, I received this same feedback in my previous review. Apparently, it was a regular practice for my predecessors to spend several hours or even an occasional full workday working alongside Operations with the livestock.

    I’ve had mixed feelings about this idea. It’s been implied that doing this will help “prove” myself to them – but what do I have to prove? I have deep respect for the people doing the manual labor with the livestock; they have skills vastly different than my own and, admittedly, a work ethic far beyond mine. I could not in any way do what they do, but I am proud of the skills and knowledge I provide to the business and feel I can excel in my role to be an asset to them. I can also understand how working alongside them would help build more positive working relationships with the coworkers who are really *my* clients, and help me understand what their needs are when it comes to the information I can and do provide to them. But I also wonder if part of this advice is being given because of the somewhat unique social culture – our location is a bit out-of-the-way geographically, and as such, almost everyone who works here lives so close by that not only do they work together, but they are each others’ social circles as well. They all go to church together and their kids go to school together. The only exceptions that I know of are myself, HR, and some of the laborers who live elsewhere.

    Maybe I’m just being lazy, but I’ve found myself very resistant to this precedent. I’m worried that at some point in the future, ignoring it will reflect badly on me so I’d like to either find a way to embrace it or work around it. Any thoughts, ideas, or personal experiences you all have would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Doctor is In*

      If you don’t have any training in dealing with livestock you could get hurt! Or at least dirty. Maybe try safety as a pushback. My husband is a CPA and has a lot of farmers. He certainly doesn’t have to hobnob with the cows to do his job.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      I am of two minds here:
      1) It is unreasonable expect someone hired to do accountancy at a desk job to regularly perform manual labor with livestock. Vacuum occasionally? Sure. Run to Costco and stock the office snacks? Grab a chicken bake! Spend a day taking trucks to get emission tested? Trucks are fun! Have someone with no training or experience interact with large animals a farm-like environment? Nope. I can’t imagine the company’s insurance covers HR in the barn or accountants in the abattoir.
      2) However, it may be a good idea for someone to set up an “operations training day” where a livestock manager takes you around and shows you all the ins and outs of operations – but doesn’t require you to do any actual labor. It could be done once or twice a year, or whenever seasons change out in the barns. You could spend a season making a list of things you have no experience in, and see if someone could show you how things work. This could help you understand operations in a manner that allows you to better serve your clients, without you needing to muck out stalls.

      I do have some personal experience with this. In my 20s I was an accountant for a corporate retreat that also doubled as a working ranch. I was located in a different state, but flew out a few times to 1) Learn the two aspects of operations 2) Get a good understanding of the needs of my coworkers/clients. Running the ranch’s books was a completely different universe from my construction job-cost duties. After a few years they hired an accountant to live on site, but she was a city girl. I’d get calls from her that were like,
      “Do I depreciate this cow?!”
      “What are you using the cow for?”
      “What do you mean?”
      “Are you going to eat it this year?”
      “Well… no. I dunno. I don’t think so.”
      “Ok, so is it for breeding?”
      “Maybe? Probably.”
      “Is it being used as a stud?”
      “….”
      “Is it a boy cow or a girl cow?”
      “How do you tell?”
      “You go look, or just ask the ranch hands.”

      A few tours around the ranch helped her understand what was needed from her position, endeared her to the staff, and helped her feel more confident in her (mostly autonomous) accounting decisions.

      1. GoryDetails*

        Agree with Campfire Raccoon’s points (and may I just add that “accountants in the abattoir” sounds like a dandy title for a new mystery series!).

        While I’d enjoy the chance to interact with livestock (having had some experience in my younger days), it’s certainly risky – and not necessary if your job doesn’t involve hands-on work. But I always did love the opportunity to shadow the people whose work I had to computerize; I found that it made a huge difference in how I approached the programming once I’d seen how the people did their daily tasks. Sure, sometimes their way was wildly inefficient – think old-school folks who had to print out everything because they weren’t comfortable reading it on-screen – but even in those cases it helped me to either design with that in mind or to frame reasons why they’d find the new methods more enjoyable.

        Oh, and I once worked on software for Cummins engine diagnostics, and got to do field trips to watch the mechanics at work. Trucks really are fun, especially the humongous ones!

        2. Scott*

          I appreciate these responses. Safety is one of the big reasons I’m uncomfortable with the idea. As someone who didn’t grow up around livestock, I’m still surprised by the size of our cattle every time I happen to be near them. Us “city folk” have a hard time truly comprehending what it’s like to stand next to a 1,500 lb animal. But perhaps I’m jumping to conclusions about what might be expected of me during these “workalongs” – maybe it really is just a shadow type deal, or could be if requested.

          I definitely had to laugh at the conversation you related, Campfire Raccoon. I had a lot of similar conversations when I first started doing ranch accounting, and I was glad to have very gracious and patient managers and cowboys to help me learn it all. As an accountant, I really have enjoyed working with farmers and ranchers. A lot of their innate understanding of the land and animals is hard to learn unless you’ve either grown up in it or done it for a long time, which is something I admire and is cool to see in action.

          My only complaint is that they’re all early morning birds which can sometimes make life a bit harder for this night owl!

          1. Bobina*

            Given you’ve received this feedback a few times now, and having had a similar experience where I was often office based, but worked with people “in the field” – I really can recommend taking a day or two every few months to go out in the field and see and touch the people and things you work with! Putting a face to a name often goes a long way in building relationships and can help you do your job better.

            In your situation, I highly doubt they are expecting you to actually pitch in – but take the opportunity to shape the trip! Taking initiative always looks good (in sane workplaces at least), so come up with an agenda yourself, maybe structure it so that over a year you see different parts of the operation, and then organise with whoever you need to to go and follow them around for a few hours and see what they do!

  103. JustaTech*

    Follow up from last week’s adventure with my coworker Betty, who was upset that I don’t always respond to her prompts for personal conversation/ after hours texts.

    This week I told Betty plainly that I really need to disconnect from work at the end of the day, and that means I won’t respond to non-emergency texts from her until working hours because even seeing a text from a work person throws me back into work mode.

    Betty’s response: “I am not used to having a co-worker that is friends at work but not outside of work. I didn’t know there was a boundary.”

    Oh for pity’s sake Betty, you’ve been working for 20+ years, and you’re only just now learning the concept of situational friends? This does explain a bit about her behavior and the way she reacts to other people leaving, but I cannot *wait* until we are all vaccinated and she can get back to her pub friends because I need a break!

    1. irene adler*

      Ya know, I did read your post last week. I don’t think I left any response. Nothing of value to add.

      I just want to say: Betty bugs the hell out of me! There is no such role as ‘Betty’s friend’.

      I’m nice as pie to my co-workers all day at work. But off-work, please, I need my space.

      1. JustaTech*

        Thinking back on Betty’s stories about how she keeps in touch with everyone she’s ever worked with (and she’s worked a lot of places), this does seem to be her MO.
        And I was super clear up-front that I never friend or follow current coworkers on social media. (Betty deleted her Facebook because it was upsetting, so this hasn’t come up much.)

        But between the pandemic and losing our one other immediate coworker, it’s a lot.
        (Here I was thinking that when Kate got laid off at least I wouldn’t have to spend so much time managing and mediating Betty and Kate’s interactions, but no, now I have Betty all the time.)

        Normally Betty is a lovely coworker and nice to be around. But now that we’re getting to the year mark of this pandemic and I think we are starting to *only* see the negative sides of each other. Which I don’t want, but I also super do not have the energy to fix. Thus, vicious cycle.

        Oh yeah, and yesterday I called her “audacious”, which she translated to “rude”, got really mad, and then when I explained the definition again she responded with “stop using big words”.
        On International Day of Women in Science she’s telling me to play dumb? (screams into pillow)

    2. sequined histories*

      This is a success, though. She acknowledged it as a work/non-work boundary rather than coming back with “Why don’t you like me?”

      As annoying as she might be, it is your job—on some level—to put up with her at work. So focus on compartmentalizing anything to do with her into your “I’m paid to deal with this minor annoyance” box. Don’t interact outside of work, and refer her back to this exchange if she complains.

  104. Happy Job Hunter*

    Starting a new job soon and wondering about decorate my office – I know I will have an actual office (four walls and a door) and will not be sharing the space.

    I have the following that I will be bringing at some point week one:
    Personal coffee cup
    Large mouse pad that’s purple, gold, teal and blue marble (matches my phone case)
    Nice pens/notebook (I’m kind of a pen snob)
    Small plant that was a congrats gift from a friend
    A few framed photos
    Desk space heater (I tend to be cold)
    Maybe a lap blanket (again…cold)

    I don’t want to fill my office with personal stuff but I want it personalized – what must haves do you keep in your office? (I’m considering an aromatherapy machine to have the smells but likely will wait a few months for that and check with the people in the office if it’s ok)

    1. OyHiOh*

      I’m cautious about smells because, as you well know, that can be really intolerable for some people. I’ve got nice scented hand lotion, lip balm, and hand sanitizer instead. I’ve got a framed photo of a piece of chalk art I did pre-COVID. A vase of dried flower petals. And most of my desk organization is origami I folded (a vase for pens made from a used desk calendar page, boxes from pretty fundraiser calendar pages). Personal/personality without the place being stuffed with personal possessions.

    2. Been There Done That*

      I would REALLY not do aromatherapy in the office. Lots of sensitive noses. If you want a scent, maybe you can have an unlit candle you can sniff or lotion in a scent you like, but I would avoid even strong perfume. There is one perfume, I don’t even know the name of it but I know it is expensive. People who wear it seem to bathe in it and it gives me headaches and an upset stomach. I have had to leave meetings because it is so strong. Check the office policy on space heaters, because they can be fire hazard. Have fun with the new job! Exciting times.

      1. JustaTech*

        Seconding both the space heaters (huge fire hazard, maybe a heated blanket instead) and the aromatherapy.
        Scents are one of those things that can really bother people.
        I’ve got a couple of scented candles (at home) that have screw-top lids that I will unscrew, sniff, and cover back up, so I enjoy the scent when I want it, and it doesn’t dissipate as quickly.

    3. Anon Lawyer*

      The office might not allow space heaters due to fire risk – a lot of commercial leases ban them.

      The rest seems fine but honestly, I’d wait a month on the framed photos if you’re hanging them up – I think it looks a little weird when someone is hanging pictures up right away instead of focusing on substantive onboarding. Not a big deal at all but a subtle perception thing. Stuff on a desk is different.

      In general, though, that’s what I kept in my office I gradually accumulated shoes under the desk (and eventually got a little closer for them).

      1. Jay*

        I wouldn’t be hanging these photos … I’m thinking 3-5 4 x 6 photos in frames that I’d put on my desk. I could bring one in a day and would take no more than 2 minutes to do all of them.

        During one of my interviews, the CEO had a space heater running in the conference room (he remembered that I run cold and did it for me), so I don’t think there’s an issue. He also mentioned my predecessor had one in her office. The one I’m bringing is small and sits on my desk. it’s probably 4″ H x 6″ L and 2″ deep. I could fit it in my purse, it also has a piece at the bottom that needs to be sitting flat for it to work (if it falls over it auto turns off). I usually run it for a few minutes to warm my hands and then turn it off.

    4. Nicki Name*

      A full-size wall calendar. Mine have usually been art or animal-themed.

      Coat hooks/hat stand for my wet jacket on rainy days.

    6. allathian*

      My must-haves are a personal coffee mug, a French press, and some good dark roast coffee. Otherwise I’m not fussy.

      I can’t deal with strong scents at all, and some give me a migraine even if I catch just a whiff. Chanel 5 is the worst, but I also can’t deal with some men’s after shave scents like Fahrenheit and Tabac. I’m so happy that my workplace is scent-free. The only time I’ve seen anyone sent home in the middle of the day it was an intern who wore a strong scent on her first day and the person who was supposed to supervise her had to take the rest of the day off after 10 minutes in the intern’s company.

  105. Anon Admin*

    What are some potential career paths out of a classic admin role?

    TL;DR context: I fell into admin right out of college because it was what I could find. I’ve been promoted up to an a-typical higher level admin role at my company, where the duties are a much better fit, but other things have me looking. However, the only jobs I can find where I feel like I tick enough requirement boxes to apply are all typical admin jobs that I just Do Not want to go back to. Still, I feel very pigeonholed because this is all the work experience I have.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I transitioned from admin to IT, but I don’t know if that’s something you’re interested in.

    2. Lyudie*

      I wonder if project management might be a possibility. Working with lots of different people in different roles, tracking things, managing timelines, etc. are all transferable skills.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        Yep, this. Started in an “admin but not” role just out of college, and my role has expanded to include project management, which my company now wants to make my official title in the next year or two.

      3. WorkNowPaintLater*

        This. I worked as a Project Coordinator for years after working as an Office Manager.

        And those skills came in very handy when supporting Project Managers when I went back to working as an admin in a construction office.

    3. Jay*

      I would suggest the possibility of an admin role in a specific department, stepping into a marketing admin role or as someone else said, something in IT. I do find that often marketing or project management are natural steps for an admin because they require a lot of the same skills – communication, organization, attention to detail. Look at larger hotels – they often have more entry level positions in their sales departments.

      What do you like to do is the more important question? Start gearing your tasks to some of those areas – maybe you really think something in accounting would be a good fit – can you help them with admin tasks in your downtime?

      And don’t discount positions where you don’t tick off every requirement – I’ve received several jobs because I have a positive personality and take well to training. I’ve been underqualified but the skill set to learn how to do the job.

      1. Anon Admin*

        What I’m doing now that I enjoy is already accounting-adjacent and has a lot of data entry components to it.

        I’ve looked at accounting jobs in the past, and tried to keep in mind the 80% meets adage, but that’s difficult when they say 3 years accounting experience and business degree required for jobs where the salary is LESS than I’m making now, and one of the reasons I’m looking to leave is that I’m already underpaid.

        1. Jay*

          In regards to looking at accounting positions – I’d still apply even if it was saying experience/degree. It doesn’t hurt to apply. My spouse holds a two year college degree and his current role is one that typically requires minimum of a 4 year degree. I’ve secured position with little to no direct experience even though the position was asking 3-5 years.

          Try to spin what you do to match the job – do you balance anyones expenses or help with budgets? Anything you do that could relate to money/accounting. There are also those skills such as attention to detail, organized, etc that will be vital.

          When I received a past position the hiring manager told me this (and a good friend who is a Corporate Recruiter also says this so it’s fairly true): A positive, hardworking, detail oriented candidate who has the ability to train and learn new skills and will fit positively with the team, who may not check all the boxes is most of the time better than a candidate that may check all the boxes but doesn’t have the same personality. I’ve also found that companies often prefer candidates that don’t have a lot of experience because they can mold them to do things their way (and not deal with, at my past job we did it this way).

          As for salary – that’s always a struggle and it’s really going to be something that you need to decide. There’s the obvious that you need to pay your bills and eat need for salary which needs to be important. But there is then the balance – will taking a salary cut now give you better opportunities/more money later, what value do you put on your happiness (I’ve taken low paying jobs for the happiness of being close to home for my kids), what career opportunities do you have? Money is important but not always the most important.

    5. Nacho*

      I had the same experience w/ customer service. At my last job, I was slowly working my way up to management, which might be something you can do. At most companies, management just needs a lot of experience at that company and with how they work, and it doesn’t matter what that experience is in.

    6. TPS reporter*

      I work in grants/sponsored research administration. We’ve had some success with the more traditional admin roles moving up into grants admin positions. There’s a lot out there especially if you live around major universities or academic medical centers.

  106. Tech Writer*

    Just a quick update for me – last week I had asked about going through the background check at my new position without the offer letter, and several commenters advised me to keep searching while I wait for the official offer letter.

    I did, and now I have a phone screen interview next week with a well-known company.

  107. I'm just here for the cats*

    I feel really stupid right now and I feel like my boss thinks I’m an idiot or something.
    Here’s the situation
    So Tuesday my boss sent me an email with tasks to complete including asking me to set up some event survey emails up in the department email box so they are ready to be sent after the events have taken place. We just save them in the drafts until later. She sent this request from the department email not her personal email. I replied, CCing her personal work email, asking some clarifying questions about one of the other tasks. I didn’t get a response so Thursday I sent a separate email. In that email I asked those clarifying questions, along with asking for a template for the draft emails.

    about an hour later I realize that the original email had the template! That’s why she sent it from the department email instead of her personal work email. Right when I go to respond that I found the original template she had responded to my email, answering my questions and telling me to look at the original email for the template.

    I feel so stupid. This isn’t the first time I’ve made mistakes like this. But it doesn’t happen regularly. But when it does I feel so bad. Any suggestions on how not to let this bug me

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Something I did at a previous job when I made a mistake was to remind myself of when the head of my department made a BIG mistake (not on her alone, but under her purview). I don’t do this in a malicious way, but as a reminder that even the higher ups are susceptible to errors.

    2. PollyQ*

      Remind yourself that you’re human, humans make mistakes, and this was a small one that didn’t harm anyone.

    3. ferrina*

      This is so normal! Especially in pandemic times. Everyone has an off-day. I’m a numbers oriented person, so I find metrics can help- when did I last make a mistake like this? Two months ago? Yeah, that’s fine. Two days ago? Hmm, am I having an off week? Maybe I’ll just slow down a bit and double check my work for a bit. That’s not a trick that works for everyone though (my sister hates it).

    4. tangerineRose*

      This is the kind of thing that happens sometimes. Remember it when someone else does something like that so you can empathize. I also like to use those times are reminders of things I should check and to help be clearer on my instructions.

  108. Frustrated Manager*

    I need advice from the AAM readers. One of my direct reports is driving me a bit crazy and I am not sure how best to deal with her. She has been in her current role for over a year now. She started reporting to me after about 5 months in her role, and her previous manager gave glowing recommendations which was one of the reasons I agreed to have her move to my team. Since she has been with me, her performance has been below par. She is not very communicative with me- if I send her a Teams message to ask her a question about something she did incorrectly, she would just go ahead and correct the issue without responding to me. Or if I send her a message telling her to do something, she would respond with a thumbs up. In addition, I give her the same guidance multiple times on how to do something correctly. I have tried having one on ones with her to let her know I am having issues with her work, and she is always in agreement- she would say things like I know I need to do better, or you are correct, I need to improve on X. Then she would improve on the specific things I corrected on in that meeting, while failing at other things. It has really been a huge strain on me because we deal with finances, and I find that I cannot approve her work without having to check it first. I am at a loss at what to do because she lost two close members of her family in this pandemic, and I don’t want to have to let her go in this pandemic. But I need advice as to how to deal with her. thank you!

    1. Frustrated Team Lead*

      This could have been written by me except its someone who has been in the position for a few years and I still have all the same problems with them–poor communication skills, not understanding how to apply feedback to the job/skill set instead of to an individual specific instance, having to double check everything because you can’t trust the output.

      In my position, while I delegate work to them and am in charge of a portion of the project we work on, I am not actually their manager and don’t have hire or fire power.

      This person worked for our company and exhibited these same problems, left the company and then reapplied a year later–and got rehired by my grand boss who has no on-the-ground knowledge of our day to day work–both me and the other team lead went to our manager and tried to fight it but to no avail. I am still stuck with it. I just keep giving feedback to my manager on their performance and pass along any feedback I get from other teams that have worked with them as well.

      I am so frustrated and just burnt out on trying to coach them on how to do their job. I get that everyone needs coaching and help sometimes, but there comes a time when it is obvious that the coaching isn’t leading to the improvements you would expect.

      It sounds like you do have more power than I do in hiring and firing. Does your company have a formal PIP procedure? Can you institute one for her with clear expectations if x, y and z improvements are not seen in the next six months she will be let go? It isn’t an immediate firing–some people do improve and succeed out of a PIP–but also allows you to have a frank discussion with her about expectations and the needs of the job and gives it some distance in time if there are also pandemic/grief related issues interfering with her work.

    2. Thunderstomps*

      I also could have written this. My frustration bubbled more because while I was initially upset about the work product, my employee’s communication style didn’t do them any favors. I kept thinking, gosh, if you know I am concerned about your performance, wouldn’t you try harder to tell me what you have done and not done?

      That wasn’t fair. If you don’t want her to send a thumbs up and would prefer a typed acknowledgement, you’ll need to make that clear to her.

      If she’s only able to fix one mistake by letting her performance slip in others, you need to start having more conversations. Direct feedback, soon after the fact, and making your expectations clear. Did you inherit a not very detailed performance plan? I did, so I gave some grace to my employee until I could write my own. I used that to spell out things explicitly and that was a guide for the next conversation.

      The pandemic losses are another issue. The person who gave glowing reviews, were those reviews specific enough to show that something has changed? Or is it a case where that person just wasn’t managing effeciently? If it’s the former, you know there is probably a bit of pandemic influence in this and I think you may have to take a slower approach. If the latter, stay the course.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ask her open ended questions where she cannot use her over worn sentences that she has been using.

      “Jane, the last time we talked about this you said you understood. Yet, I still see this happening. Describe to me your plan for preventing this mistake from happening repeatedly.”

      I used to use this technique with people. It’s difficult. A couple said, “Can’t you just yell at me like other bosses?” Yeah, it’s hard to think things through and figure out how to stop our own basic mistakes. But it gets easier and can become habit to address problems this way.

      This could be grief brain. She might need some time off. If your company offers EAP this might be a good thing to mention. I know for a good many people it takes about two years to move through the raw, jarring grief when a loved one first passes. I do think that grief never ends but we do adapt to grieving a loss and still function in this world. She’s had two loses, I am sure she is shook. And she probably will be for a while.

      As far as communication, I think you will need to lay out your expectations.
      My boss leaves me notes. As I do each thing I write the word DONE next to it. Not quite a thumbs up, but not that much better. She’s happy to see “done” written next to her note. A different boss might prefer more words from me. That is fine, but I won’t know unless that boss tells me.
      My boss would be fine if I made the correction and did not answer her email. Again another boss would have to tell me to answer the email. It’s not a problem, I just can’t know these things intuitively.

      If you have to tell her things multiple times, then she may need to write it down. Grief brain can kill retention. Tell her to write stuff down so she remembers better.

      In the end, I think you are going to have to say something like, “This is your last verbal warning. The next time will be a PIP. I need for you to know that these problems cannot continue on indefinitely. These things need to be fixed and stay fixed.”

      Can you go back to the previous supervisor and ask her about these problems Jane is having? It might give you some good info so you have a more productive meeting with Jane the next time.

    4. LGC*

      I don’t think you need to fire her yet or in the near term!

      I’ll start with the really nit-picky things: I don’t think the way she uses Teams is something to worry about. It’s annoying, but she is doing the things and acknowledging your responses. I’ll admit that I’m guilty of overusing reactions in group chats myself (outside of work), so I’m biased – but at the end of the day it doesn’t feel like a dealbreaker.

      What does feel like a dealbreaker here is her struggles. Have you laid out the issues with her work, and that these are big-picture issues? It sounds like she’s taking you at your word when you say she needs to improve specific things, when what you really mean is that she needs to improve broadly. (And I’ll admit, your stance is reasonable. If you’re constantly correcting someone – which it sounds like you are – they should be able to figure out that there’s something wrong here.)

    5. bunniferous*

      She lost two close family members. I’m guessing this indeed might be grief brain. Can you reach out to the previous manager confidentially and see if perhaps you can pinpoint the issues to what is going on with her personally? Because that is what stuck out to me in your post.

  109. snowy dog*

    I’ve been contracting for 18 months at a company. 30 days on the job my boss (and boss’s boss) told me he’d love to hire me full time they just needed to figure out the HR stuff. I’ve been patient for 18 months, and finally started applying for other roles because I’m just getting led on. All of a sudden my boss says I can interview for the full time of my current role (grade 10). This process moves fast and I have an offer in 48 hours. Meanwhile, I’ve applied to other roles at other divisions of the company for grade 11. Looking at the requirements, I clearly meet the grade 11 requirements, and was offered interviews. So, during negotiation of the offer I ask for the grade 11 role and corresponding salary. HR comes back and says that “yeah, you meet all of those. you are performing at that level but we can’t hire you at that level because the business doesn’t need someone at that level”. They also can’t give me concrete accomplishments I need in order to be promoted. Is this normal? I feel like I’m being taken advantage of because I’m a hard worker and expressed wanting to be hired FTE from the get go. I just wish I was more excited about the offer and instead I’m just disappointed. Ways to overcome this? Move on?

  110. What's the deal?*

    So…I’ve been working contract for a while, and I’ve been in talks to be converted. Which, yay! Awesome. I even got an email from the recruiter with a specific end date, and that the employer was on board and just needed time for approval. Again…yay! Awesome. I told my boss (hiring manager) this the next day, and she had NO idea this was happening. At all. They’ve done a lot to save face, and they are trying now to get my in by that deadline, but I am just so taken aback. Has anyone had this happen with a recruiter? It really took the wind out of my sails, about something I was pretty excited about. I’m trying not to judge any party too harshly, but it’s kind of weird all around.

  111. CollegeSenior*

    Easy question for any EU AAM readers: do you not look at benefits as much when job hunting since you have socialized medical care and a larger amount of legally required sick days and vacation days? I know here in the United States negotiating for vacation or shopping around for better health insurance plans is a big part of the job search, but do you not need to do that in say, Germany, and just look at the job content and pay?

    1. Grace*

      UK here, but for my entry-level job hunt I didn’t look at anything other than job content and pay. My current company advertised small benefits like having flexi-time, contributing to public transport costs etc that are a nice bonus, but those weren’t the main reason for taking it.

      Anything related to medical benefits wasn’t even on my radar, besides “flexi-time will be good for appointments”. The number of days of holiday you get are usually standard for entry-level (legal minimum 28 days, or 5.6 working weeks, and parental leave is also guaranteed by law), although at a higher level companies may offer more days for longer-serving employees etc so it may be a concern at that point.

      I believe various other EU countries (oh damn, I can’t say that anymore. various EU countries, hold the ‘other’.) do tie some aspects of health insurance to employment, but it’s never quite to the point of needing a job in order to pay for healthcare. More like extra bonuses.

    2. Wanda*

      I’ve never looked at anything except salary and holiday entitlement (mostly to see if there are ways to “buy” extra days etc. since there’s a minimum number given anyway). Health insurance isn’t something I’ve ever considered from an employment perspective (I’ve only ever bought it for travelling to the USA – travel in EU is all covered).

    3. Bobina*

      I look at all the perks because I’m all about trying to get the most out of an employer that I can, but its not make or break like it is in the US. For instance in the UK, my first company had awesome additional medical benefits (NHS can have long waiting times for certain things eg mental health needs) so I definitely got spoilt on those. New company doesnt have anywhere near as good medical benefits, but has a much better pension match – so that compensates somewhat.

      I’m casually job searching, and definitely looking at things like buying additional vacation days and pension contributions as things that would make an employer stand out from the rest, in addition to more money and job content.

  112. swiglkip*

    I had a kind of ridiculous epiphany recently. A very well respected, senior non-manager type person admitted that years ago, before we’d properly staffed for a particular function, this person was feeling jaded, angry, stressed, had a poor attitude, & was thinking about leaving. The context was how proper staffing & support relates to attitude.

    I was thinking back to the start-ups I’d left because I was burnt out, felt unappreciated, & had a terrible attitude. I always felt terrible about my bad behavior & for the first time I thought, maybe it wasn’t all entirely on me.

    1. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Thank you a million times for this.

      I’m feeling very much like your colleague used to feel. Because I’m junior in my role, and the higher-ups have no respect for my team, the amount of crap I have to swallow about us being “complainers” and resources being totally fit for demand is unbelievable (we were understaffed before half the team resigned, folks).

      On some level, I always know it’s not entirely on me. Today I really needed to read it, because it’s been the worst week in a while. And now, on to applying to a few more jobs.

      1. swiglkip*

        Sending you a virtual hug, it sounds like you’re in a pretty difficult place right now. All you can do is take care of yourself as best you can and let your current “cry me a river” company pay for your job search. That’s what my mom told me when I was ready to on-the-spot quit a really bad start-up.

        I will tell you there are good companies out there. Companies that have managers who get training & support & in turn are able to support their direct reports. Companies who value their employees & go to great lengths to make sure you feel appreciated.

        My hope for you is you land at one of these companies & can look back at this period & smile because you’ve gotten out. Good luck, try to stay strong, & take care of you!

        1. Cookies for Breakfast*

          Thanks again! And, reading that your feelings of guilt came from past jobs, I hope you too are in a much better place now :)

          The mom reference made me laugh. Mine was horrified when I told her I was looking, because I quit a job with nothing lined up once, and she was more stressed out than me about it. It was 100% the right decision, and I was lucky to find a job before my notice was up, but I’m playing it safe this time – 2021 doesn’t strike me as the year for luck!

    2. irene adler*

      That’s right- it’s not you.
      Two years ago I interviewed at a start up. They were big on “we’re very busy here; we all help each other out whenever someone is overloaded.”
      Uh-huh.
      I asked about the plans for the company: grow it and run it for many years, or sell it to a larger company.

      They wouldn’t answer me. Just kept repeating the “we’re very busy here” line.

      I know if the goal is to sell the company to a larger company, there will be more and more work, but few hires made, to even out the work load. But if they are growing the company to manage themselves, then when the workload becomes too large, they will make some hires to remedy that.

      And I did not want any part of a company that was just going to grind the employees down only to be sold to another company.
      (No, wasn’t offered a job either)
      I think they are gone now. Not sold.

      1. swiglkip*

        Wow, sounds like a “flip this house” type of company. Just interested in the superficial stuff to make us appear good to a potential buyer, but not really gonna invest in things like culture, employee retention, etc. Not offered the job? Sound like bullet dodged. ;)

  113. Cookies for Breakfast*

    My boss’s boss, Leslie, is leaving soon. She is the one sane person among the higher-ups in my department, although not the most influential. Her own boss, Gavin, who used to work for Global Company Known For People Crying At Their Desks, holds my team to standards that would be unreasonable even with no pandemic and enough resources, and manages with…well, the kind of style that leaves you sobbing at your desk.

    I haven’t advanced my skill set one bit in the two years I’ve had this role. I’m that internal recruit that gets forever pigeonholed in their original position, and am pretty much still doing my old job. Part of the reason is my boss isn’t great at delegating, and takes control of even the smallest stretch tasks I cut out for myself. Part of it is that Gavin changes our priorities on an almost weekly basis, so the long-term projects that would help me build up experience never happened.

    I’ve been job hunting since the summer, with no luck. One interviewer fed back that I don’t have enough experience in the hard skills that usually come with my title. That’s right! There wasn’t a single chance to work on that! In short: I’m burnt out from Gavin’s constant undermining; resent spending all day doing work I specifically asked to move away from; have zero confidence in myself; feel unemployable for any job with my current title; don’t even know that I have the right personality for those jobs anymore (but also, no idea what I could apply for otherwise?).

    I thought I might ask Leslie for advice on a short call before she leaves. I would ask what she’d recommend to a junior employee trying to upskill. I would probably tell her that I’m trying to understand how to get ready for my next job, and would value her point of view as both a manager and someone who has recently been interviewing (at least at some level, she knows my team is a sinking ship). I could use some guidance from someone who knows me professionally, but has no interest in keeping me compliant with the department’s dysfunctional ways.

    The trouble is, I don’t know whether she’d keep that confidential from Gavin or my boss. As a risk-averse person, I’d say probably not. I’d be shy to ask for her time after she leaves: we’re not geographically close, she’s starting a new job, and is going through personal stuff; I’m the kind of person who doesn’t even text friends without worrying for hours that I might be bothering them. (also, you guessed it, a terrible networker). But maybe that really is what I should do? Or is it a bad idea in any case?

    1. irene adler*

      Can you ask Leslie about upskilling because you want to be of greater value at current company? Or that you want to upskill because you want to move up in current company? Do you think Leslie would buy those lines?
      Or can you ask her and preface with a request to keep the conversation confidential?

      And, BTW, this is a good opportunity to start networking. You are friendly with her; I’m sure she’d welcome an occasional “how ya doin’ at the new job?” contact from you (occasional = every 5-6 months or so) . This is easier than reaching out to a stranger or someone you just met (like at a professional event).

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        I tried the “be of greater value at current company” angle before (while I still meant it). She prompted to think about how to free up my time from “old job” tasks, and while her advice was helpful at the time, I know now that I won’t be able to put it in action for as long as Gavin has a say in what my team does. Now I made up my mind that I’m getting out as soon as I can, my priority is getting a sense of what I have to offer or need to start offering in the first place.

        Asking her directly to keep it confidential is what I had in mind, glad it sounds reasonable to you too! On the other hand, you make a good point about networking, and that makes asking her after she’s left equally valid. I definitely need to sleep on this one :)

        1. irene adler*

          Suggestion: you might want to ask Leslie to be one of your job references.
          Another reason to network!

          1. Cookies For Breakfast*

            Ha! I was thinking about that too. My boss would definitely give me one, but I’ve been at this company so long, there’s no way I could get a second reference from a past workplace.

  114. Spearmint*

    I’ve found myself starting to be annoyed at the heaviness of the editing being done to my writing at work, and I’m wondering if it’s reasonable to be annoyed or not.

    While I wouldn’t call myself a professional writer, writing is/was a major part of both my current job and previous job, as well as the internships I did in college. In all those positions, my writing has been subject to very heavily edited by my boss or a more senior colleague: they would delete and rewrite whole paragraphs and sections from scratch, and sometimes entirely new content would be added. While they stopped short of rewriting the whole thing, in the end there are enough changes that I often don’t feel like the content or voice is mine any longer. This is despite the fact that I’ve mostly received positive feedback from my managers, they just act like this level of editing is normal.

    Is this really how editing in a professional context is supposed to work? I am happy to have an editor delete content, rephrase many sentences, substitute different words, critique the structure, and so on, but I feel that completely rewriting whole sections themselves crosses the line from editing to simply writing their own version of the document. If an editor thinks there should be a different approach or a new section, I think they should tell me that and then have me, the person writing it, write the new content.

    It’s demoralizing to put a lot of work into a piece of writing only to have it be carved up to the point that I don’t feel comfortable saying I wrote it or that it’s in my voice. And frankly, it makes it harder to be motivated to go above and beyond the basic expectations when I feel like there’s a decent change my work will just be radically changed anyway. I also feel that such heavy editing doesn’t help me develop as a writer because I don’t get the chance to fix mistakes or make major changes on my own.

    So I need a reality check: am I right to be annoyed by this, or is this just normal for folks in entry-level professional roles?

    (For context, the writing I’m doing is formal but also meant for public consumption, think reports, infographics, pamphlets, analyses, etc., so there’s some room for creativity but it’s still more formal than, say, marketing)

    1. Melanie*

      That sounds really normal for an entry level writing position. It’s unlikely that your employer needs or wants it to be “your voice” – they want it to be a company voice. Your role is to generate the basics, which then gets turned into the sort of output the company wants by someone more senior. It’s faster and more efficient for them to start with something you’ve written than from scratch.

      You can try asking your manager if there is anything you should be doing to make your writing more useful, but if you are getting positive feedback, it sounds like your work is fine, you just have somewhat unrealistic expectations about how this should work.

      1. Spearmint*

        That makes sense, but how am I supposed to develop the skills to move beyond entry-level if I’m always just writing the basics and never given a change grow as writer?

        1. Reba*

          Well, that is a different question than “my writing is always heavily changed” (which IS annoying, I get this deeply, it’s just also normal). You can have a discussion about wanting to grow your skills and take on projects of greater complexity. The answer might be no, unfortunately, these are the kind of projects we have for this role, but definitely worth asking about!

        2. Donkey Hotey*

          First: totally normal.
          To your later question: The next time you talk to you editor, ask if the company has some sort of style guide that they are using, or if there is an industry standard you can look into. Approach it from the perspective of wanting to grow your writing but also to make it easier for your editor to edit if you give them more of what they’re wanting.

    2. ferrina*

      So normal! Sometimes bosses (or in my case, clients) will be inspired by your writing and realize that they have something in particular that they want to communicate. And sometimes bosses/clients just want to change SOMETHING so they feel a stronger sense of ownership in the project. And sometimes they really do want you to write in a different way (in that case, you will usually get feedback along with the edits). It’s not personal!

      Best thing to do is be super professional about it and accept it as part of the job. Those are the writers that people love to work with- folks who are flexible and open to changes (even if the changes are done for very silly reasons!).

    3. Analyst Editor*

      I have two thoughts on this.
      First, it’s your job to do the job, and learn and develop yourself as you figure out what sort of thing gets edited out all the time. Every “second chance to rewrite” and gentle guidance are nive-to-have but not required. Especially if the writing component isn’t the core part of the job, compared to, say, research it data analysis.
      Second, a lot of managers don’t want to be seen as nagging, unreasonable hard-asses, so they will avoid giving negative feedback unless something is truly egregious, and they won’t want to make you redo things until it’s good. They’ll just fix it themselves. A senior colleague has even less standing to correct you, so they’re not going to jeopardize their working relationship with you to critique you, lest you feel slighted.

      I say this because I have been the junior analyst who resented being managed by a senior peer without my supervisor’s explicit say-so; the senior analyst who (remembering this) had to tactfully rewrite most of a colleague’s truly awful writing; and the analyst who fancied herself a writer until she finally figured out what her (angelically patient) manager ACTUALLY wanted and wrote that, and not what her muse told her to write.

  115. Lahey*

    I’ve been working part-time and temporary full-time for my company for about two and a half years. Last month, I was offered and accepted a full-time position (with a measly 50 cent per hour raise).

    Unfortunately, the benefits, including PTO, don’t kick in for 90 days. I asked my boss how I should handle appointments until then, offerring to take shorter lunches that week or come in for a few hours on Saturday. He said we would decide on a case-by-case basis, but discouraged me from doing so, saying it’s “part of being full-time”.

    I don’t plan on taking off a lot, but I still need an occasional doctor or vet appointment. What should I do here?

    For context, I am scheduled a full forty hours, and am completing my work much faster than they expected. I also work independently, so there’s no practical reason to not allow a more flexible schedule.

    1. Managing In*

      I think you bring it up on a case by case basis and present it as a statement, not asking for permission. Schedule your appointment, decide how you’d prefer to make up the hours, and send an email that says something along the lines of, “Hi Boss, I’m going to be out (day time) for an appointment. I’m planning to make up the hours by (describe), but let me know if you would prefer I handle it differently.” The ‘handle it differently’ is about how you make up the hours, not when or whether you can go to the doctor. (Don’t schedule an appointment over a big meeting or deadline; it doesn’t sound like you will!)

      Your boss sounds very rigid in his expectations. 90 days is long. One “Part of being full-time” is being a human person with a human body that sometimes needs medical care.

      1. Managing In*

        Additional thought: I don’t think it will help to ask your boss about this in advance, but if something big comes up (you have the flu for 3 days, you have a family emergency – I had to travel to a funeral 2 days into my new job and probation period, pre-COVID), instead of trying to make up the hours, try to push out the end of your probationary period by an equivalent number of days. If your boss gets weird about this, a conversation is needed about what rules are your boss’s preferences and what rules are actual company policy. Another “part of being full time” as a human person in a human body is needing a sick day sometimes. You don’t get *paid* time off for your first 90 days but that doesn’t mean you have to be a completely-time-off–less, never-sick, no-appointments-or-emergencies robot for 3 months.

  116. office_farmer*

    Interviewing for a job at a non-profit after several years doing managing for-profit small businesses that engage in the on the ground work that the non-profit mostly promotes, but does engage in on a small scale (see my username for a better idea of the field I’m in :)). At these small business, I’ve been overseeing all operations type stuff, sales, customer care, etc so I’m no stranger to office work, but I’ve also been getting to engage with these businesses in a real way (meaning physical labor in this field). This non-profit job is a rare combination of both and I’m excited about the opportunity, but the culture is definitely different. Folks who’ve transitioned from blue collar/physical work to a more white collar/non-profit jobs – what were the biggest challenges?

    Off the bat, I have to adjust my mental idea about how to dress for work. No more dirty overalls for me…and where did that hairbrush I used to own go?

    Also, how intolerable did you find the switch to jargon? In my interview alone, it was “dovetail” this and “pivot” that, and though I don’t mind it, it made me chuckle because it sounded like such a stereotype. Open to hearing thoughts on this from anyone, but definitely anyone who’s made a similar switch!

  117. CoffeeWholeMilk*

    Any advice on how to manage up and down without having authority? What helped you establish good working relationships with your peers and higher-ups?
    Any advice on how to improve your presence in team meetings?
    Thank you!

    1. ferrina*

      Main thing for good working relationships: Respect their expertise and their time. When they speak, truly listen. It’s unfortunate how few people do this.
      For managing up: be reliable! Come prepared to meetings, don’t speak beyond your expertise. Follow through on what you say you will. Be open. If they say a priority is X, you can push back once (to ask why), but then accept it and perform well. Know that they can’t share everything with you (some things are confidential!) and accept that with grace.
      Not sure what you mean by improving your presence in team meetings, though.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Understand the power of a well framed question.
      I like good questions. It gets me off the hook for having to know everything. But sometimes I can look at a discussion and listen to all the contributions and something will suddenly jump at me. I have to ask a question about that one part.
      Here’s what’s cool- they may not answer you but you may send the conversation in a different direction that does eventually change the way things were going.

      Don’t be a chronic questioner.
      Read the group well.
      IF you are unsure, say nothing.
      If you do ask a really good question, expect ZERO credit for steering the discussion in a productive manner. Keep expectations low and enjoy the surprise if anyone notices that you ask good questions.

      This is part of becoming known as a thinking person.
      Next step: Once you are underway with this identity, they will bring you harder and harder questions and situations. It doesn’t get easier… it gets harder. One day you find yourself in a spot where you say, “why do I get all the headbanging problems?” and right here is why.

  118. Flower necklace*

    Any teachers here who have experience with hybrid? How has it been going for you? We are scheduled to go to hybrid in a few weeks, and I’m concerned.
    Teachers in my department don’t have our own classrooms, so I’ll be spending most of my time in our department room (including my co-taught classes – not sure how that will work with many of us in there at the same time). Is there anything else I can do about being in a crowded space for long periods of time, other than double masks and lots of hand sanitizer?

    Also, how would lunch work in that situation? I genuinely like my coworkers and miss the days when we would eat elbow-to-elbow around the center table, but that’s obviously unsafe now. Should I plan on skipping lunch? Or just hunch over my desk and eat quickly?

    I’m not at risk and don’t live with anyone who is at risk. However, I’ve read enough stories about long-haulers that I’m nervous about being exposed, and I won’t be vaccinated by the time I go back.

  119. Nonbinary and Incensed*

    We are rolling out standardized email signatures as a company for the first time, and someone on senior leadership suggested in an all staff email that we could opt in to including our pronouns. I was excited to see my company taking a step towards being a more welcoming environment (especially as a nonbinary person who isn’t out at work).

    Roughly seven hours later, someone in HR responded to that all staff email and said we would NOT be adopting this as a practice and to ignore the suggestion.

    I want to respond and explain how awful a decision that is, but I’m not sure how to do that without outing myself in what is clearly an unsafe environment.

      1. Nonbinary and Incensed*

        The majority of people that I would consider my allies and who I was open with about my gender have been furloughed or have left the company at this point.

        1. pancakes*

          That really sucks about losing allies. Was the suggestion from the senior leadership person by email? I think you could reply to just them (or email them directly, either way) to say you thought it was a great idea, and ask if they can shed any light on why it wasn’t taken up?

        2. Anono-me*

          I am a worrier, but the fact that something like letting people know what pronouns their coworkers use got shut down fast and the fact that so many allies are gone seems problematic. I would look for a safer work environment and consider being more candid than is usually wise in your exit interview.

    2. LGC*

      Would you mind saying what you wrote here to the senior leadership member who fronted that suggestion? HR is…very human, and they are not final law. Someone should push back on it.

      I don’t doubt you’re in an unsafe environment, but it also seems like you have a potential ally. You don’t even need to come out as NB necessarily – I’d say the same thing as a cisgender person, although I’d be much less worried about repercussions.

    3. TPS reporter*

      That is really too bad! My company is huge- 50,000+ people. We rolled out an optional pronoun in the signature block with no fanfare. There may have been some complaints who knows? But HR just said this is what we’re doing there’s no debate. I like the idea of normalizing it.

  120. TaxLady*

    TLDR: Should I fly to NYC to meet with clients in person?
    Help me make a decision: I lived in NYC for many years and that’s where most of my clients are located. This year I moved away and most of my clients have been fine with now working together online. But a handful (10-12) of my clients want an in-person experience and will find someone else if I don’t come to NYC. I am debating coming to NYC for a week in late March to meet with them. With flights, hotel, and office space coming to NYC would be about $1500, and I earn roughly $200 per client. I am of course nervous about Covid – I am relatively young and in good health, I would have no problem insisting on masks during the meeting, and I would stay in a place by myself walking distance to my office, so I am most worried about the flight. If I don’t go, I might lose these particular clients but there are always more clients, but I feel some loyalty to them. What do you think, what should I do?

    1. LGC*

      For what it’s worth: New York is VERY strict about masking and safety in general (after what they went through this spring), so you’ll probably be fairly COVID-safe while you’re here. I can’t speak to the flight, although I think what I’ve read about it says that the riskiest parts of the trip are actually the airports.

      (In New York, you’re legally required to wear masks in all businesses, and in New Jersey – I haven’t been into New York City since March – every store has signage saying that masks are required to enter. NJ’s restrictions are somewhat looser than NY’s.)

      Okay, all that said: is this trip worth $500-$900? That looks like what you’re going to come out with (and that’s pre-tax). It just feels like it’s not that much money for a lot of work, even if there wasn’t a pandemic.

    2. Lifelong student*

      Is that $200 for the meeting or $200 a year? Figure out the future cost of those clients as well as the cost to find the replacement income. If these are business expenses they would be deductible of course (which given your user name, you probably know!) so compare the after tax cost of the trip to the potential revenue.

    3. PollyQ*

      If they feel so little loyalty to you that they’ll drop you because you won’t travel during a pandemic without a pressing reason, then I don’t see why you should feel any loyalty to them. And although the US new case rate is dropping nicely, I just had a video visit with my PCP, and she warned that the more contagious strains may be getting widespread in March. Perhaps you could offer them some other kind of “upgrade” in remote service, but given that you say you can afford to lose these clients, I wouldn’t risk your health (and life!) for something that sounds inessential.

    4. Mstr*

      How in-demand is your service? They’re probably not going to find anyone local to NYC for $200, and even locals don’t want to ride the subway or have indoor meetups. I’d decline & reiterate your offer of whatever remote service you are willing to provide. A weeks’ worth of work & you’re only going to profit $500? Is that right?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you go once, then you will probably have to keep going.
      If ten of them actually show up, you will clear $500. For how many days’ work??? I don’t think meeting all 10 in one day would be realistic for you? All 12 is probably out of the question for one day.

      If half of them dropped you for other reasons, would you think of your trips to NYC as a waste of time?

      You left the city for a reason. Do you think you might ever go back? If you do not plan on ever going back then my vote would be to set boundaries with everyone now. I am willing to bet that you will keep a couple of these people anyway. But if you don’t it’s good information, so you know where and how much to develop your work-life in your new place. I guess I am a rip the bandaid off person. Find out what is there so I can plan accordingly.

    6. BRR*

      You shouldn’t do it. This is really bad covid behavior. Traveling then meeting with 10-12 clients then traveling. Masks are good but not 100% effective. And if these clients care little enough about covid to want to meet with you in person, who knows what their other behavior is.

    8. Carol O.*

      Please don’t do this. If they are the sort of people to demand this in the middle of a pandemic, you don’t owe them anything. People with such a lack of consideration for public health – and YOUR health – don’t deserve loyalty.

      No one should be travelling at present unless it is absolutely unavoidable. You have a choice. Please, make the smart choice. For your own sake, and that of the people around you.

  121. Super Duper Anon*

    Does anyone have experience going from a large corporation to a mid-size company without giving up a lot of salary? I have progressed from a smallish company at the start of my career up to a very large and ultra corporate company at my latest job. While I am content and don’t plan on moving on for years right now I have come to realize that my ideal work environment is at a medium size company. A place that is beyond being a a startup and has some processes and departments in place (like HR), but isn’t so big and process driven that it is easier to get work done and accomplish stretch projects without running into red tape.

    However, the upside of the corporate job is that I have the best salary I have ever had, and bonuses are amazing. I am not counting insurance in this as I am in Canada not the US and the extended benefits packages that most companies offer are pretty comparable. I am the main earner for my household, so I can’t afford to take a huge paycut to get the working environment I want. Anyone else have experience with this?

    1. Rick Tq*

      I went from being an engineer at a Fortune 100 aerospace company to an IT support person at a 30 person software vendor, I’m now a technical presales engineer at a 70 person enterprise systems and services provider. The corporate job had a fixed hierarchy of pay scales on the technical side but you had to transition to management to keep getting raises. Working for a much smaller company I have have a much more direct impact on company performance. I support the sales staff and am on a salary basis with additional commissions on sales I support, plus the owner is pretty generous with annual bonuses when the company does well.

  122. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

    USA pandemic interviewing question: I am still quarantining and will not go into a hair salon yet. Do interviewers still recognize this is an issue, and that folks may still have quarantine hair?

    1. ferrina*

      Define “quarantine hair”. Plenty of people don’t have the usual style, and very few people care. I know a lot of people that have decided to embrace their natural greys, and it looks fabulous! If you look unkempt, though, that may reflect poorly.
      Also depends on what industry you’re in- if you’re in a high-profile, public facing role, they want to see someone that looks polished. I work with a lot of software engineers, and we definitely don’t screen for hair style.

    2. PollyQ*

      What exactly is the issue? If it’s a stark stripe of gray roots, then home hair-color can cover it. If it’s too-long, unshaped hair, then put it up in a bun, braid, or half pony tail. If it’s short hair that’s gotten scraggly, a little styling product — gel, wax, or pomade — can help you push it into a reasonable shape.

      But ultimately, unless the job is some kind of show-biz or marketing role, most employers don’t care about hair as long as it’s neat.

  123. SpaceCadet*

    So we had a viewing/discussion session at work of “Picture a Scientist”, which is a documentary about discrimination of women in science (namely academia) and the sexual harassment that occurs. It brought up a lot of stuff I wasn’t expecting, feelings I thought I’d pushed through from my experiences years ago. I didn’t realize how profound what happened shaped my life, and trajectory for my career. I started grad school, and after a year said the hell with it I’m tired of all the crap I’d had to deal with since undergrad. I worked several years doing research support, then was going to be laid off so switched to administrative work. At the time I felt I’d be satisfied doing operation support for a research facility, that I’d still be supporting scientific research, just from another angle. The last few years I’d been questioning my career path anyways, in part because I’ve just not been satisfied with what I’m doing. And I work at a research facility so I’m around scientists all the time and number of them express surprise when they find out I have degrees in science but don’t have a career as a scientist.

    I felt like I had chosen a new direction for my career along the lines of research management and have been pursuing that by taking training in project management, business analysis, etc, but this makes me question if I’ll be satisfied with that. I miss being more involved in the research, I liked the work I did in my previous job. It also came with a lot of BS I had to deal with, some sexist, but more due to not having a doctorate (its very classist here, if you don’t have a doctorate you’re considered little more than a mindless drone). I just have other kinds of BS in my current job, so it’s not like I’m better off in that regard. I just don’t know that trying to go back would be great either, especially given I’m going on 50. I’d really need to at least get a masters to make a decent salary and have better work options, so that means going back to school on top of everything (my employer does offer education reimbursement, so paying for it wouldn’t be an issue). But I don’t know what I’d do, what kind of job I’d look for, I mean, I guess its not like I have to know right this moment, but still. It’s got me so torn up, I’m trying to stave off crying episode number three over it. Ugh.

    Has anyone else gone through this? Either leaving a career you really wanted because of the work environment? Did you find you were able to transition ok, or have you regretted it? Or anyone who’s gone back to the career the really wanted, how did it work out?

    1. JustaTech*

      If you want to do science without a PhD, have you considered industry? (It sounds like you’re in a research institution.)
      I’m in industry and I don’t have a PhD but I do research (well, development, but close). And if you like lab work there’s also the whole world of Quality that doesn’t require a PhD. And while no place is free of sexism, at least in industry I’ve found there’s less of the tiny kingdoms you get in grant-funded research that make harassment so easy/likely.
      It’s been my observation that in industry people are (generally) less stuck on degrees, mostly because a lot of people with PhDs have this residual baggage about not being a tenured professor (which is BS, but it’s deeply ingrained BS).

      Good luck!

      1. SpaceCadet*

        Thanks. Yeah I don’t see myself doing a Phd. A non-thesis masters I don’t think would be too bad if needed (thought I might see if any place would accept some of my grad credits from before, which would be nice). I would definitely stick with industry or maybe government (like EPA or something). Funding is a big deal with academia (or academic adjacent, which my current work place is), which leads to many issues that I imagine doesn’t exist at the same level in industry. I guess I need to spend time looking at types of jobs look at pay and qualifications, maybe get some ideas where to go from here.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Not really an answer you were looking for. I suggest having that good hard cry. We have tears for a reason. Tears trigger a chemical reaction in the brain that help keep the brain healthy. Annnnd a healthy brain can probably sort life’s challenges better. Yeah, blow out some cobwebs and then try to think about this some more.

      When I finally have a good solid cry, I am always amazed at how much better I feel the next day. I can handle matters in a more practical way.

  124. whingedrinking*

    A question about my side hustle, for people who have experience with self-publishing and online small businesses.
    Last month I launched a Kickstarter for a project I thought would be fun – I’d create a cocktail book, and one of the reward tiers was that I would offer a custom recipe for backers who pledged above a certain amount.
    This reward tier sold out within days of the launch, with minimal effort on my part, and I’ve received a few messages asking if I would open more slots/repeat the project, since they really wanted the custom drink option. I’ve decided not to add more slots for now, since this is my first time doing this kind of thing and I want to make sure I don’t wind up overcommitted, but it is useful info to have that there’s demand out there.
    So I’m now thinking about what to do with this info. Obviously, my first goal is to finish this project, but then what to do next?
    There’s the option just to do another Kickstarter and another book, but I’m a tad leery of that. A significant amount of the money I raised for this one came from people I know – not all, but a lot, and obviously that’s not an infinite well. I think the project could be successful without that, but that would involve investing much more time and effort in advertising, which I don’t know much about.
    The other thing I considered was opening an Etsy shop. This has a couple advantages – for the client, there would be a faster turnaround than “thanks for the $25, your recipe will be ready in a year when the book comes out”, and I wouldn’t have to also commit to the work of putting a book together. The downside is that I have not a clue where to begin with that kind of endeavour.
    I’m not planning to turn this into my job at any point; so far I’ve raised $900 through Kickstarter and most of that will go to buy ingredients (I’m fortunate to have a partner with experience in self-publishing who will help me put the actual book together for free, and it’ll be an e-book, so no printing costs). But if I can even make beer money off a hobby I enjoy, that would be nice.
    I’d be grateful for any advice about completing the book I’m committed to, or recommendations about directions to go afterwards. Cheers!
    PS, the KS itself is still running for a couple more days; link in my profile if anyone’s interested.

    2. BRR*

      I don’t know if there’s a market for this but could you sell custom cocktail recipes to people as one offs like for people getting married looking for a signature cocktail to serve?

  125. NeonDreams*

    anyone have any ideas on how to combat ‘checking out’ mentally because you’re so burnt out on the work you’re doing?

    2. Nacho*

      Caffeine. Lots and lots of caffeine. Also, take small breaks where you allow yourself the opportunity to just relax a little bit. You’ll be more productive in the long run.

      1. TPS reporter*

        my exact thoughts. whatever gets you through right now.

        Also, could you plan fun things for yourself to treat as “rewards” after work. Like if I work until 5:30, at 5:30 I’m going to watch one episode of my favorite sitcom. Or take a walk, or read, or whatever you like. But say you have to do it after work and you must “earn” it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      All the short term plans in the world will be kind of tough if you do not have a long term plan to get yourself to a better spot.

      Do you know what that better spot should look like for you?

  126. Mx. Saturn Aquarius*

    I work for a small nonprofit arts organization, and we are all currently working remotely during the pandemic. We don’t have direct deposit and the thorn in my side is getting bigger and bigger. When asked why we don’t have it, the Director of Finance’s answer is usually that “it’s too expensive,” or that it’s a cash flow issue.

    Not having direct deposit became a huge issue when USPS started slowing down and our paychecks weren’t delivered until over a week later. Since then, some of us get our paychecks hand-delivered by another employee, some get their checks put in the mail earlier so that it’s received by payday, some have their checks left on their desks and they visit to pick them up, and I learned at least one coworker gets her paycheck via wire transfer. Important note about the wire transfer: my coworker was instructed by the Director of Finance not to tell anyone about her setup.

    Because our salaries have also been reduced due to the pandemic, I’ve been driving to the bank every payday so I can have my funds the same-day. I don’t really have the luxury to wait two business days when bills are due and my income is smaller. Well, yesterday I got into a car accident when the snow-sludge roads caused another car to spin into mine, leaving my boyfriend and me sharing one car for the foreseeable future. I asked my boss (head of the company) if I can have my paycheck wire transferred to me for the above reasons… She said she’ll talk to the Director of Finance. No guarantee if this is something that can actually happen.

    My question to you all: If the response somehow is a ‘no,’ what are my next steps? Is there anything on my side that I can use to leverage this request? Pretty much everyone on staff have asked about direct deposit and it’s always been shot down. I desperately need my paycheck money in my bank ON payday.

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I don’t know if it’s legally required that one’s paycheck money must be in their bank account ON payday. At one of my previous jobs, there was no direct deposit. We were given our paychecks a few minutes before 5:00 PM (closing time), meaning that it was too late to go to the bank that day. AFAIK that was legal, although I never checked to find out if it was legal. This was many years ago, when there was such a thing as direct deposit, but banks were not open late on Friday nights or at all during the weekend.

      At another company, when asked about getting direct deposit, the Controller said that that would be impossible, since all of the employees at the company would have to get checking accounts at the same bank, and that wasn’t going to happen. Of course, it wasn’t necessary for all of us to have our checking accounts at the same bank, but if we had said so, it would have been tantamount to calling the Controller a liar, and we would have been fired. Another time, I asked the Controller why my 401(k) deductions from my paycheck were shown as “repayment of loan” on my paystub, and he said that it was because the company’s paycheck service didn’t have a category for 401(k) deductions, so he had no choice but to call them repayment of loan. When I changed jobs and worked at a CPA form, I learned that not only had the Controller lied, but what he did was illegal. The CPA said that it was illegal to list a paycheck deduction showing a reason other than the real reason.

      So sometimes companies DO do illegal things. But I don’t know if it’s illegal to refuse to do direct deposit. Maybe it is illegal to give one employee wire transfers and not make them available to anyone who wants them.

    2. Rick Tq*

      My first job out of college was with an aerospace company who pays weekly(!) and 35 years ago they would only offer direct deposit to one credit union, so I joined. For the last 25 years I’ve been working for small companies that use ADP payroll processing and I have *always* had direct deposit and to the same employer-specific credit union. ADP now aggressively offers a debit card option where your net pay is available a day before payday.

      I think someone in Payroll isn’t doing their job, or the organization is so strapped for cash flow they fund the payroll account a day late. Neither one is a good sign.

  127. Here Live, Not a Cat*

    I have been treading water for years in my current job and I’m starting to think I really need to just get out. My problems: I’ve been working for 12 years in a particularly niche industry, I don’t have a college degree, and I’m not exactly sure how my skills would translate to a “normal” job.

    To elaborate a little, I worked at a tiny startup where I wore many hats (web developer, database admin, customer support, trainer, some marketing) and then my tiny startup was acquired by a bigger but not “big” company with its own dysfunctional quirks.

    Right now, and for the past 6 years, I have been a Llama Herding Software product specialist. I know our software, I help our sales team with demos/technical discussions with prospects, and when they make sales, I onboard new customers and train them on our software and answer questions. I also help with marketing content, and talking with our internal development teams about future products, etc. Again, lots of hats.

    I just met with our CEO and expressed interest in moving up within the company, wanting to help more with either project management or future development, and his response was “wow, even with two toddlers?” (yes, he’s an HR nightmare)

    So I’m done, I need to get out, but I have no idea what positions I should be targeting with my mishmash of experience all in a very very targeted industry and no general college degree or certifications. I’d be willing to focus on getting a degree or certifications, but I’m really trying to figure out just what industry I even want to be in.

    I don’t even know if there was a question in there. Help?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Of what you are doing now, what parts do you like the best? (If you find it interesting, you’ll find it easier to stay with the job.)

      OTOH, what parts do you think you do your best work at? (If you are good at it, your more apt to stay working over the long haul. If you dunno what you are good at then list off what other people tell you that you do well with.)

      Of these two categories, what do you see available in your area that might be worthwhile looking at? (Practical application, what things are you interested in and/or good at in your area? See how each thing narrows the field so the choices are not so many?)

      Unrelatedly, you have met outsiders in the last twelve years. Can you think of, say, one or two that would be interested in knowing that you are looking for new work?

    2. Bobina*

      Your roles sound like they could be pivoted more to marketing, product marketing manager etc or to something like product development or product manager or more of a training role.

      I did a lot of what you describe in a role that was called product manager, so have a look at that. I know half the time the challenge when looking for something new is finding out what its called to search for the right jobs, so my trick for that is generally to just browse job boards like its my job and read any that look vaguely related until I start to get a feel for what responsibilities usually correlate to what title, and then start to narrow in on those.

  128. A Girl Named Fred*

    Would you be concerned by the job history below if you saw it come across your hiring desk? I was planning to stay put for 3-5 years to try and prevent becoming a job hopper, but I’m struggling a lot with my current workplace (various culture issues, including micromanagement, leadership that doesn’t trust its employees, a weird fascination with personality assessments, way too much overtime, etc.) I’m working on a more long term game plan to get into work I’m satisfied with but I’m wondering if it’s worth it to try to look or if I should buckle down and find some coping strategies. Thoughts?

    Current Job: one year and four months
    Previous Job: two years, left to move to bigger city with more opportunities
    1st Job out of College: two years, left for a position with benefits and more upward mobility

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      Industry depends but here are my thoughts: I personally would not be concerned with this job history. Can you demonstrate growth/increased responsibility in each new role? If so your job history seems quite reasonable. 2 years in an entry level job can be long enough to get everything you’re going to get out of it.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Thank you for the feedback! Each job has grown in both responsibilities and (in my opinion) the results I’ve shown, so I think I can highlight that well in my resume and cover letter. My jobs have all been in a similar industry but I’m not married to staying in that field, so maybe I’ll do some exploring after all. Thank you again!

    2. WellRed*

      No concerns here for me either. Especially with the first few years of working, I’d expect these shorter stays.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Thank you! Out of curiosity, how long of a grace period for the first few years of working would you give? Obviously if I do job search I’m going to try to find some place to land for a while! But I’d be interested to know how long people think entry level folks will take to “settle down” so to speak.

  130. Weird Fake Interview??*

    I can’t figure out what I just experienced. I have been applying for jobs and was contacted by a company that I had *not* applied to. The whole thing set off weird red flags for me – the email was extremely vague about what the job even *was* and the website was suspiciously neutral looking with vague descriptions of the work; it only seemed tangential to my experience. The phone number went to a voicemail that was full. I thought it was a scam of some kind but they emailed twice requesting I make an appointment and then started texting me (?). They clearly got my info from some online jobs portal I had filled out for another application because of how much info they had about me. I was so curious to know the scam that I actually joined the zoom interview, which was 15 minutes long. There really was a person at the interview who asked general job-like questions like “where do you see yourself in three years.” They still didn’t tell me about the job so I told them I wasn’t interested. What was the scam here? I can’t figure out what their goal was.

    3. pancakes*

      You say, “I thought it was a scam of some kind but they emailed twice…” Being persistent is not inconsistent with scamming people! I would not recommend giving your phone number or other contact information to someone just because they’re persistent in asking. Reputable companies don’t conduct random interviews of people who haven’t applied for any position.

      1. Weird Fake Interview??*

        But that’s the thing – they had my phone number already. They texted me after each email, although I had not provided them with any info, so they got my name, phone number, email, and general field of interest (and also location, as the job was local) – I suspect from an application I had put in a jobs portal that then sold my data or made it available to people recruiting for other jobs than what I applied to.

        1. pancakes*

          Sorry, wasn’t reading closely. It seems likely either that, or they bought your contact info from a site you purchased something from, which would also have your email & phone. A MLM might buy data from either.

  131. WFH caftan*

    I ended the day on a bummer note—made an offer to a candidate I was thrilled about. After being transparent about our salary max and confirming multiple times throughout the process that this met their requirements, we made the offer…and they asked for $30-35,000 more or to make the role part time. What?!?!?

    I’m all for negotiating and I wouldn’t have been miffed if they tried for $5-10k even though we were up front about the range and wouldn’t have been able to meet it. But this amount is a significant, almost laughable, portion of the salary, for a role that has always been advertised as full time.

    Ugh. I know candidates need to look out for themselves, but we acted in good faith and I feel really frustrated about all the time that I and our team put into this.

    2. identifying remarks removed*

      It’s annoying but I’d consider it a lucky escape. Early last year, pre-Covid, we experienced something similar with a candidate. That candidate just reached out to a different dept in my company and pretended their offer was pulled because of lockdown/furlough – I guess they think the recruiters don’t talk to each other.

      1. WFH caftan*

        Yikes. That is cheeky. Not only do recruiters to talk each other but our ATS houses all of those notes/past candidacies and that kind of trickery would be sniffed out in an instant!

  132. Mimmy*

    This question is super late so if no one sees this, I’ll post again next Friday.

    Can anyone recommend some good resources for getting a foundational understanding of education and learning? I’ve been intrigued with learning in general, but now that I have my sights set on higher education disability services, I’m interested in learning (ha!) more about education; for example, how classes are different between K-12 and college.

    The masters degree I’m seeking is specifically geared towards this field, but weirdly has no coursework on student development or learning theory (possibly because many students are in the field already or in a related setting, such as K-12).

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